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Donna Zuckerberg on Pickup Artists Roosh V and Ovid

Classicist Donna Zuckerberg, sister of Facebook’s Mark Zuckerberg, is back with a long article in Medium about Pick-Up Artists such as Roosh V, Neil Strauss, Mystery, and Ovid (43 BC – 17/18 AD):

Bang Rome
Ovid and the Original Sin of Pickup Artistry

by Donna Zuckerberg
Silicon Valley-based Classics scholar. Editor of Eidolon.

Dec 21, 2015

… I can imagine why the idea of Ovid as their OG (“original gangster”) is so attractive to PUAs. The idea of an ancient Roman predecessor gives them legitimacy by implying that the seduction community has deep historical roots. And if Ovid can be claimed as one of their own, his status as a brilliant and influential poet reflects well on the entire movement and gives it intellectual credibility.

Embracing Ovid as the OG PUA is a significant choice. The extensive similarities between Ovid’s Ars Amatoria (called The Art of Love by Strauss, a translation I’ll return to momentarily) and the advice given by PUAs reveal some of the most consistently problematic elements of PUA ideology—the erasure of female subjectivity, the use of sexual partners (often interchangeable and indistinguishable) to bolster status within a community of men, the near-total disregard for affirmative consent.

Ovid may be the seduction community’s OG, but he also reveals their original sin: there are underlying flaws in the concept of seduction as a teachable skill that inevitably lead to negative consequences for men and women alike. By focusing on the conquest of women (“closing”), the women themselves become unimportant. The act of scoring, especially in front of your peers in the community via “field reports”, becomes the goal. But the negative consequences of treating seduction as a lifestyle go beyond the objectification of women. The men who succeed at becoming master PUAs often end up alone, unable to form healthy attachments, while those who fail can turn toward violent misogyny. In the end, it seems this truly is a strange game where the only winning move is not to play.

Why no Roissy, Donna?

 
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  1. Roissy is discussing “Cuckersperg” right now.

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2016/12/22/fact-checking-snopes/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Not Raul
    How do you know that the escort and the bride are the same woman? They look a little bit alike, so they might be the same; but I'm not quite convinced.
    , @rotten
    I have the same question as Steve. How does Roissy escape both the notice of Zuckerberg (and for that matter the SPLC).
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  2. For Roissy, she’d have to mention Houellebecq. As for ending up alone, didn’t Strauss end up getting married? Did he get divorced later?

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  3. Roissy may be lacking a tad in PeeCee sensibility, but he does write surprisingly well.

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    • Replies: @Lot
    He is so full of anger and bile that he's unreadable for me. I've tried a few times, a single post does not leave me wanting any more.
    , @Thea
    Roissy is a national treasure
  4. Because Roissy is an extreme white nationalist?

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    • Replies: @Seamus
    Roissy (or to give his blog its current name, Heartiste) has gone so white nationalist that I find myself wondering whether it's actually the same guy writing the blog.

    IIRC, Roissy's secret identity was revealed a few years ago by a pissed-off female blogger who identified him as an employee of FINRA. I don't remember the name, but I recall that it was one that's often considered a "Jewish name." The current author of Heartiste, on the other hand, is not only a white nationalist but also seems to have antisemitic tendencies, which is another reason I wonder if there hasn't been a change in personnel. (I'm obviously assuming that (1) Jews are white, and (2) it's possible to be a white nationalist or a "race realist" without being an anti-Semite.) For all I know, Roissy/Heartiste may be the new Dread Pirate Roberts (minus the drug dealing).
    , @Abe

    Because Roissy is an extreme white nationalist?
     
    The original Roissy was "outed" a bit by a crazy slut single-mom hate-ah after divulging too many specifics/photos of his DC dating exploits and had to underground? The proprietor of the Chateau may be a different person now, or a collective of writers, as is often hinted-at in the posts.

    I honestly regret the loss of more game-specific content and "field reports" in favor of purely political rants (not that those aren't great too) as those were very useful (yes, gentlemen, game doesn't stop just because you're married**) and- at their finest- had a poetic sublimity just like Trump's Axis Hollywood aria about being overthrown by beauty and being powerless to do anything but immediately kiss on it.

    Anyway, though, I distinctly remember Roissy ending a post with a "yours in Yahweh" sign-off, so possibly he (or one of the he's in the collective now branded as Roissy) is really a (((he))) ?

    ** Merry Christmas, Steve! And totally understand if this does not get posted till well into the first week of 2017. Have to figure out what to buy my wife in the next few days as well. We've been married long enough that I've exhausted all the big ticket items, and honestly our house is so cluttered now that it's taken the fun out of one-off novelty items as well (AI robodog with Shiatsu-massagin action!). So basically we get stocking-stuffers for each other, plus buy one big item for ourselves well before Christmas day. Practical, if not very magical. Wondering if you have a better system...
  5. Dunno if “Medium” needs to be italicized since it’s a blogging platform, not a publication.

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  6. reflects well on the entire movement and gives it intellectual credibility

    Of course, she and her herd of “real classicists” would never stoop to such a disreputable act as usurping the success of others (including relatives) to give a gloss of undeserved accomplishment to their own sad, hollow lives.

    Read More
    • Replies: @wren
    When I see that 'Silicon Valley-based classics scholar" schtick, all I can think of is Victor Davis Hanson.

    I think that town ain't big enough for the two of them. Especially the post-modern one.

    If there were a coliseum around they could battle it out Greco Roman wrestling style or something.

    Maybe they could do it in front of the Stanford mausoleum. A Socratic debate.

    , @Sean
    Dad still works as a dentist.
  7. She is neither a good writer nor a deep thinker. Similar to her brother.

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    • Agree: eah
    • Replies: @Thursday
    She is curiously tone deaf to language. Witness her pedantic aside on the title "Art of Love." Art in English has the same connotations are Ars in Latin: we even have a high profile example resurfacing in the news: Donald Trump entitled his book The Art of the Deal. Perhaps "The Lover's Art" would be a better translation, but "The Seducer's Craft" gets Ovid's tone all wrong, and suggest Zuckerberg's way of thinking, not Ovid's.

    My guess is that, like her brother, she has high non-verbal intelligence, but comparatively low verbal intelligence.
    , @Abe

    She is neither a good writer nor a deep thinker. Similar to her brother.
     
    Doesn't Zuck have an every ditzier other sister?

    Personality-wise I actually think Donna is pretty cute, and getting a PhD (OK, it's not particle physics, but it's not a "Studies" major either) is nothing to sneeze at, particularly if it involves fluency in another language (or two). She writes 10X more lucidly than Ta Genius, has made a basic effort to understand her subject, and even throws in cute references to guy-stuff like gangster rap or GAME OF THRONES.

    Personally I think all of this is a cry for the tall, dark, and bearded Roosh to sweep her off her feet (bonus points for some kinky Esther/Haman bedroom roleplay later..)
  8. Ovid’s my favorite Latin poet, so it’s really awesome to see him rustling jimmies 2000 years on. Got the whole six-volume set in Loeb Classics. William Luther Pierce liked him too, quoting him in his “Out of the Darkness” speech: “Night is a sadder time than day.” (tristior idcirco nox est quam tempora Phoebi.)

    As for Donna, don’t let the manosphere bros break your spirit: “Perfer et obdura, dolor hic tibi proderit olim.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Ovid’s my favorite Latin poet,
     
    Chaucer was also very fond of Ovid.

    And reading Ovid's Metamorphoses is probably the most pleasurable way to get acquainted with Classical mythology.
  9. @NickG
    Roissy may be lacking a tad in PeeCee sensibility, but he does write surprisingly well.

    He is so full of anger and bile that he’s unreadable for me. I’ve tried a few times, a single post does not leave me wanting any more.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JW Bell
    His early writing was fun like the sexual points grading. The last couple years he sounds like a one note song.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    He's definitely on the extreme end, but that doesn't mean that his thoughts don't have some degree of truth. I read him every now and then, he's interesting in very small quantities.
    , @Negrolphin Pool
    I'm the opposite, can't get enough. Heartiste is always good for a caustically cathartic laugh or five. It's tough to think of anyone superior in the raw talent department, besides this blog's learned host of course.

    In this philistine's mind the Heatisian prose often ascends to poetic heights.

    , @george strong
    You sir, are a cuck. Roissy/Heartiste is a very influential writer, and greatly healped Trump get elected. Get your T-level checked, pajama-boy.
    , @AndrewR
    Pot, meet kettle...

    I feel the same about him though. He's a degenerate sociopath.

    , @Anonymous
    He used to be pretty decent but his style changed significantly and his content is not as good and original as it used to be. Now he mostly just recycles alt-right and /pol/ style content that he picks up from other sites and social media. The writing has changed so much from the original Roissy that some say it's a different writer or group of writers from the original. Others say that it's the same guy but that he changed his writing style and content and cultivated rumors that it's a different writer after he got doxed.
    , @Anonymous
    He basically ran out of things to say and is more of a political blog now. That's not a knock on him - he blogged on the PUA stuff so much early on, and the whole PUA thing got saturated and went somewhat mainstream, that he ran out of new PUA material to blog about.
  10. If Zuckerberg’s brother had learned some game, this man, one of the richest men in the world, maybe wouldn’t have ended up married to a peevish, career oriented Chinese (reminiscent of Ellen Pao) who is likely to give him only one child, bossing him around relentlessly.

    Beta is as Beta does.

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    • Replies: @Thursday
    Roissy once posted a picture of Z and his wife, and then commented that game was worth a billion dollars.
    , @Abe

    If Zuckerberg’s brother had learned some game, this man, one of the richest men in the world, maybe wouldn’t have ended up married to a peevish, career oriented Chinese (reminiscent of Ellen Pao) who is likely to give him only one child, bossing him around relentlessly.
     
    Well, given that his wife is a Chinese Harvard graduate who married her college sweetheart, chances are extremely good that ol' Marcus Aurelizuck is the only man she's ever been intimate with, and maybe even kissed. And in terms of overall lifetime happiness for a man who seems mostly focused on building his business empire, that's something. Zuck is also probably free of that Portnoy satyriasis gene that has so recently shaken the foundations of our Empire (destruction of the Presidential ambitions of the very formidable Eliot Spitzer, and of course the whole Anthony Weiner fiasco). Even that pretty cerebral co-founder of Google messed up his life and got divorced after committing the Current Year version of cheating with the office secretary. Of course you don't hear much about it because it's not Un-fake News....
    , @Corvinus
    "If Zuckerberg’s brother had learned some game, this man, one of the richest men in the world, maybe wouldn’t have ended up married to a peevish, career oriented Chinese (reminiscent of Ellen Pao) who is likely to give him only one child, bossing him around relentlessly."

    This is what I love most about those acolytes from the manosphere. They make their own subjective criteria as what a "true man" ought to be to make themselves feeelz better.

    "Beta is as Beta does."

    So how does his alleged "status" directly impact your life? Are you really that concerned about his relationship status, or is just an act?
    , @Glossy
    I hate Zucky's politics, but I can see why he would prefer a Harvard graduate to a model. Smart men like smart women.
    , @Chrisnonymous
    Or maybe when you have enough cash to be pretty much assured of being able to bed 9s and 10s, it frees you of the need to.
  11. The biggest problem with PU Artistry is that one can end up marrying the best/hottest woman he has been able to score with, rather than the best woman he might marry if he were to court her with patience and careful persistence (the game of appearing ambivalent and non-stalker like, while still pursuing your quarry with dogged dedication).

    Practice at game is useful to not seem like an inexperienced sperg in the game of courtship, when it counts. However, it’s easy to become sidetracked by the T&A so that one never takes the time to consider what one wants in a wife and what one can achieve in a wife, and pursue that resourcefully and patiently.

    I don’t think anyone is perfect. It’s a bit like trying to take a good group photo – the odds of everyone looking acceptable are the odds of each individual looking acceptable to the power of the number of people (or multiplied together if you are being anal about people who are better at taking photos than others). Similarly, the more things you have on your list describing the perfect woman, the odds of finding that are approximately the odds of attaining each desirable quality in a random woman, multiplied together. As a practical matter it comes down to compromises for anything but a trivial list.

    Read More
    • Agree: Cletus Rothschild
    • Replies: @ic1000
    Re: the shortcomings of PUA etc., if you're a guy looking to marry the 'right' woman

    Athol Kay has written a couple of good how-to books on the subject, worth looking up. He also discusses 'marriage game.'
    , @Je Suis Charlie Martel
    Speaking of Classics and wife material: While everyone was trying to marry the Beautiful Helen and pledged a pact of mutual support to whomever won her hand which then tied everyone into the war against Troy... wise Odysseus focused instead on Penelope (said to be either the sister or cousin of Helen) which turned out to be... not a face that launched a thousand ships, but which kept the home fires burning instead...
    , @whorefinder
    PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females.

    The problem was that the hippie-commune selling point of "free love"---hey, everyone's gonna get laid equally---turned into the reality of hypergamy. Women, freed of the constraints of marrying the one man in her bracket and being faithful to him, flocked to sex up the top 20% of men around. The bottom 80% of men were left punching the clowns.

    PUA has taught part of that 80% how to look and act like the top 20% and get women to sleep with them. Women have gotten mad at PUAs because they want to sleep with actual top-20% of men, not one of the 80% doing a good impression. That's the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement.

    Most PUAs would love a return to the chaste-monogomous-marriage-comitted women of the 1950s halycon vision, but, bitterly, have accepted that finding a good virginal coquettish woman is impossible. So they've resorted to getting what little pleasure can be had from the situation, by aping clownish behavior to get a woman to lie with them. A few hours of sex beats none at all.

    MGTOW is a similar rational response by men, except these men eschew bothering with women even to get laid. PUA techniques is just wasted effort to them, since women are so hostile. Better to be alone that risk getting fooled by a woman into a sexless relationship with a shrew.
  12. Is this new? The last part is especially similar to the conclusions reached by Strauss toward the end of “the game.” Have the 11 years since its publication not yielded any new thinking about this topic?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    It's kind of a perennial topic. Ovid died 1999 or 1998 years ago.
  13. @Paul Walker Most beautiful man ever...
    I'm tipping 220 comments on this post.

    Why is the topic so popular?

    Read More
    • Replies: @SFG
    Some iStevers care about golf courses, some don't. Some iStevers care about sports, some don't. Some iStevers care about the Donmeh, some don't. Some iStevers care about Jews (one way or the other), some don't.

    But every man wants to get laid, or remembers when he did.
  14. Roissy has insisted repeatedly that he is NOT M/o/T if that’s what you are getting at.

    Anyway, although she overstates her case, I think she’s basically right that the arc of a PUA’s life tends towards burnout, loneliness, and social disease.

    Another interesting thing: Roosh posted a picture of her recently. Evidently she is far less attractive than is suggested by the photo she uses.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    She recently had her husband's baby and she's not a social x-ray at present.

    Tom Wolfe, who was not uneducated in the classics, argued that matrons shouldn't be expected by their culture to be as slender as virgins.

    But that seems to have been been forgotten.

    , @Mr. Blank
    The main benefit I got from a brief flirtation with the PUA life several years back was learning to dump all my beta-male behaviors. That change alone instantly improved my dating life substantially, and it wasn't even difficult.

    The lesson I learned: Women like men who act like men and aren't ashamed of it, full stop. I wished that somebody had clued me into this very simple truth years earlier, except I realized that someone had: My stodgy old grandparents. Watching old movies really opened my eyes. Most of the "insights" of modern PUAs used to be common knowledge among men, right up until the baby boomers -- my parents' generation -- came along and decided to "fix" things.

    Like everything else the boomers tried to fix, they ended up making it much worse.
    , @Desiderius
    M/o/T?
    , @Thursday
    Game was invented by thrill seekers, and there is a huge selection effect among men who choose to spend their life in bars every night. So, it's not the techniques or even the mindset exercises that are necessarily the problem.
  15. @Oleaginous Outrager

    reflects well on the entire movement and gives it intellectual credibility
     
    Of course, she and her herd of "real classicists" would never stoop to such a disreputable act as usurping the success of others (including relatives) to give a gloss of undeserved accomplishment to their own sad, hollow lives.

    When I see that ‘Silicon Valley-based classics scholar” schtick, all I can think of is Victor Davis Hanson.

    I think that town ain’t big enough for the two of them. Especially the post-modern one.

    If there were a coliseum around they could battle it out Greco Roman wrestling style or something.

    Maybe they could do it in front of the Stanford mausoleum. A Socratic debate.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    That's a good idea. They should get together and stage debates.
  16. “The men who succeed at becoming master PUAs often end up alone, unable to form healthy attachments, while those who fail can turn toward violent misogyny. In the end,”

    Violent misogyny is way more common among Muslim men, Mestizo men, and Black men than it is among PUA men, which is a community mostly made up of White guys who started off as introverted geeks who than blossomed into becoming extroverted ladies men.

    Read More
  17. @wren
    When I see that 'Silicon Valley-based classics scholar" schtick, all I can think of is Victor Davis Hanson.

    I think that town ain't big enough for the two of them. Especially the post-modern one.

    If there were a coliseum around they could battle it out Greco Roman wrestling style or something.

    Maybe they could do it in front of the Stanford mausoleum. A Socratic debate.

    That’s a good idea. They should get together and stage debates.

    Read More
    • Replies: @wren
    Maybe the Palace of Fine Arts in the city is a better venue than the mausoleum.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Palace_of_Fine_Arts_SF_CA.jpg/1024px-Palace_of_Fine_Arts_SF_CA.jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Stanford_Mausoleum.jpg

    , @5371
    I'm not Hanson's biggest fan, but it would be like putting a heavyweight boxer in the ring against a five year old girl. The she-Zuckerberg is completely lacking in brainpower, erudition or taste. Forget the internet scribbler once called Roissy, I'm beginning to think she would benefit from a week or two at the château de Roissy. Pity she couldn't meet the standards for admission.
    , @Sean
    I think Donna vs the (B.A. in classical studies) Warren Oates lookalike author of The 48 Laws of Power, Robert Greene, who went on to write The Art of Seduction would be a better debate.

    Greene talks a lot about military strategy "getting inside the OOAD loop" ect.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop#OverviewThe key is to obscure your intentions and make them unpredictable to your opponent while you simultaneously clarify his intentions. That is, operate at a faster tempo to generate rapidly changing conditions that inhibit your opponent from adapting or reacting to those changes and that suppress or destroy his awareness. Thus, a hodgepodge of confusion and disorder occur to cause him to over- or under-react to conditions or activities that appear to be uncertain, ambiguous, or incomprehensible.
     
  18. @Steve Sailer
    That's a good idea. They should get together and stage debates.
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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    That's pretty awesome. '

    The last time I was in Golden Gate Park in SF was in the late winter of 1983: the Queen of England was visiting the President. I got a good view of Prince Philip and the back of Queen Elizabeth's head. The IRA protestors next to me were jumping up and down with excitement, only to seem ashamed moments later.

  19. @sabril
    Roissy has insisted repeatedly that he is NOT M/o/T if that's what you are getting at.

    Anyway, although she overstates her case, I think she's basically right that the arc of a PUA's life tends towards burnout, loneliness, and social disease.

    Another interesting thing: Roosh posted a picture of her recently. Evidently she is far less attractive than is suggested by the photo she uses.

    She recently had her husband’s baby and she’s not a social x-ray at present.

    Tom Wolfe, who was not uneducated in the classics, argued that matrons shouldn’t be expected by their culture to be as slender as virgins.

    But that seems to have been been forgotten.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ben tillman

    She recently had her husband’s baby and she’s not a social x-ray at present.

    Tom Wolfe, who was not uneducated in the classics, argued that matrons shouldn’t be expected by their culture to be as slender as virgins.

    But that seems to have been been forgotten.
     
    Not being fat is about as big a class marker as you'll find in this country. To be sure, many plump women and portly men circulate in high society, but the difference between classes is still considerable.
    , @mittelwerk
    that's not just post-baby gain, that's husband-rejection, bed-death, lifestyle fat
  20. Roosh — The Public Humiliation Of Mark Zuckerberg’s Sister — How she wants you to think she looks like:…How she really looks like: — fazit: the foto she uses with these pieces is very very well-chosen — so this has some aspects of ‘Sailer’s Law of Female Journalists’.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I use flattering pictures of myself. Likewise, I suspect the loved ones of that 52-year-old UPS driver who was murdered in the Ithaca Walmart parking lot because he reminded a crazy person of Donald Trump chose a good picture from his prime in his mid-30s or early 40s.

    And well they should.

    , @Jenner Ickham Errican
    From the Roosh link, Zuckerberg for Jezebel: (emphasis mine)

    The only way to understand the alt-right is to stopping thinking of it as a single monolithic entity and realize that it is a fragile coalition of hateful ideologies, of deplorable men using the internet to perform white masculinity by playacting as Nazis to feed on our fear.
     
    It’s afraid!
    , @neutral
    Roosh looks like an Arab, so while those macho Arab types think they are Gods gift to women, there is a reason they don't tend become leading men in movies or the darlings of boy bands.
  21. @oddsbodkins
    Is this new? The last part is especially similar to the conclusions reached by Strauss toward the end of "the game." Have the 11 years since its publication not yielded any new thinking about this topic?

    It’s kind of a perennial topic. Ovid died 1999 or 1998 years ago.

    Read More
  22. I dunno, I read “The Game” around 2006 (I was 22) and I couldn’t put it down. I devoured it in less than 72 hours. It wasn’t exactly a manual, it was a story. I never studied or employed actual Game “techniques” — one didn’t need to. But the book was like the Rosetta Stone of women (that simile is used in the book as well).

    I started getting laid about 10x more. Let me pause here to beat you all to the joke:

    ten times zero still equals zero, buddy-ro

    With that out of the way, I’d like to say that “Game” in our day and age was simply the masculinity of another era. It’s like how our venerable host has written that the reason Mad Men is so popular is that everyone secretly longs for the bad old days when women were women, and men were men.

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    " It’s like how our venerable host has written that the reason Mad Men is so popular is that everyone secretly longs for the bad old days when women were women, and men were men."

    Mister we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again.
    , @wren
    I think there are lot of commenters here who live in various parts of Asia.

    Interesting places.
    , @Desiderius

    everyone secretly longs for the bad old days when women were women, and men were men
     
    According to Strauss and Howe, that goes in cycles. The Boomers in their solipsism and with their outsize cultural pull tried to stop the cycle at their (androgynous) preferences with predictable results.
    , @27 year old
    It was a very entertaining novel. My takeaway was "I bet Neil Strauss wishes he had written this book before he wrote his books on Jenna Jameson and Motley Crüe".

    And also, the book highlighted that a lot of dudes get into PUA because they have serious personality issues, and many of them learn to program around their issues to get women, but don't really resolve the underlying issues.

    Also, a while back, somebody who was a character in the book The Game posted on some pictures on a message board of themself hanging out with Mystery and Neil Strauss back when the book was taking place and included some of the "hotties" they were picking up and let's just say the book may have been a little exaggerated in some parts lol
    , @Corvinus
    "is that everyone secretly longs for the bad old days when women were women, and men were men."

    Today, men are men and women are women. This nostalgia of the 1950's is a myth. My two great uncles who served in World War II told my father stories about women "back in the day". From those conversations, the only thing that changed is that women today are much more open about their sexual intentions. They were just as caddy and bratty, just as mysterious and nurturing then as now.
  23. @eah
    Roosh -- The Public Humiliation Of Mark Zuckerberg’s Sister -- How she wants you to think she looks like:…How she really looks like: -- fazit: the foto she uses with these pieces is very very well-chosen -- so this has some aspects of 'Sailer's Law of Female Journalists'.

    I use flattering pictures of myself. Likewise, I suspect the loved ones of that 52-year-old UPS driver who was murdered in the Ithaca Walmart parking lot because he reminded a crazy person of Donald Trump chose a good picture from his prime in his mid-30s or early 40s.

    And well they should.

    Read More
    • Replies: @snorlax
    Snorlax's 1st Law of Male Journalism: If they're at least 6'2" tall, they'll make sure to let you know every chance they get.

    ;)
  24. @wren
    Maybe the Palace of Fine Arts in the city is a better venue than the mausoleum.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Palace_of_Fine_Arts_SF_CA.jpg/1024px-Palace_of_Fine_Arts_SF_CA.jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/Stanford_Mausoleum.jpg

    That’s pretty awesome. ‘

    The last time I was in Golden Gate Park in SF was in the late winter of 1983: the Queen of England was visiting the President. I got a good view of Prince Philip and the back of Queen Elizabeth’s head. The IRA protestors next to me were jumping up and down with excitement, only to seem ashamed moments later.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "The last time I was in Golden Gate Park in SF was in the late winter of 1983:"

    More museums have opened up in golden gate park since than. And San Francisco has gotten a lot more Asian since 1983.
    , @wren
    The happy classic inspirations for the architecture:

    Bernard R. Maybeck was chosen as architect for the Palace of Fine Arts. A student of the École des Beaux-Arts, his design reflects the impression of a Roman ruin. The inspiration for the Palace, with its soaring colonnade, grand rotunda, and carefully constructed pond, was meant to evoke quiet sadness and solemnity. This is most evident as one observes the “weeping ladies” facing into the tops of the columns throughout the park. While visiting a museum in Munich, Maybeck was struck by the Hungarian artist István Csók’s depiction of a scene where the notorious Polish princess Elizabeth Bathory is seen throwing freezing water on her naked servants.

    Maybeck was also influenced by Arnold Böcklin’s Isle of the Dead. This popular work depicts a small island with towering rocks surrounded by water, with trees at the core of the island, and a boatman with mysterious passenger approaching a dark inlet. Maybeck’s choice of inspiration from classical painters was interesting, given that the purpose of the Palace of Fine Arts was to showcase artists at a period of time when modern art was beginning to emerge.
     
    https://palaceoffinearts.org/theatre-history/
  25. Has anyone ever made a porn film called “Triumph Of The Willy” ?

    (Steve’s right though – her looks, like my inquiry above, don’t have much bearing on the debate. It’s not like she’s calling for altered beauty standards – it’s more like PUA and alt-right are becoming clickbaity topics)

    Read More
  26. @BenKenobi
    I dunno, I read "The Game" around 2006 (I was 22) and I couldn't put it down. I devoured it in less than 72 hours. It wasn't exactly a manual, it was a story. I never studied or employed actual Game "techniques" -- one didn't need to. But the book was like the Rosetta Stone of women (that simile is used in the book as well).

    I started getting laid about 10x more. Let me pause here to beat you all to the joke:

    ten times zero still equals zero, buddy-ro
     
    With that out of the way, I'd like to say that "Game" in our day and age was simply the masculinity of another era. It's like how our venerable host has written that the reason Mad Men is so popular is that everyone secretly longs for the bad old days when women were women, and men were men.

    ” It’s like how our venerable host has written that the reason Mad Men is so popular is that everyone secretly longs for the bad old days when women were women, and men were men.”

    Mister we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again.

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  27. @Steve Sailer
    That's pretty awesome. '

    The last time I was in Golden Gate Park in SF was in the late winter of 1983: the Queen of England was visiting the President. I got a good view of Prince Philip and the back of Queen Elizabeth's head. The IRA protestors next to me were jumping up and down with excitement, only to seem ashamed moments later.

    “The last time I was in Golden Gate Park in SF was in the late winter of 1983:”

    More museums have opened up in golden gate park since than. And San Francisco has gotten a lot more Asian since 1983.

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  28. @Steve Sailer
    That's pretty awesome. '

    The last time I was in Golden Gate Park in SF was in the late winter of 1983: the Queen of England was visiting the President. I got a good view of Prince Philip and the back of Queen Elizabeth's head. The IRA protestors next to me were jumping up and down with excitement, only to seem ashamed moments later.

    The happy classic inspirations for the architecture:

    Bernard R. Maybeck was chosen as architect for the Palace of Fine Arts. A student of the École des Beaux-Arts, his design reflects the impression of a Roman ruin. The inspiration for the Palace, with its soaring colonnade, grand rotunda, and carefully constructed pond, was meant to evoke quiet sadness and solemnity. This is most evident as one observes the “weeping ladies” facing into the tops of the columns throughout the park. While visiting a museum in Munich, Maybeck was struck by the Hungarian artist István Csók’s depiction of a scene where the notorious Polish princess Elizabeth Bathory is seen throwing freezing water on her naked servants.

    Maybeck was also influenced by Arnold Böcklin’s Isle of the Dead. This popular work depicts a small island with towering rocks surrounded by water, with trees at the core of the island, and a boatman with mysterious passenger approaching a dark inlet. Maybeck’s choice of inspiration from classical painters was interesting, given that the purpose of the Palace of Fine Arts was to showcase artists at a period of time when modern art was beginning to emerge.

    https://palaceoffinearts.org/theatre-history/

    Read More
    • Replies: @wren
    And the young politician who spearheaded its restoration in 1959 was Caspar Weinberger.
  29. @BenKenobi
    I dunno, I read "The Game" around 2006 (I was 22) and I couldn't put it down. I devoured it in less than 72 hours. It wasn't exactly a manual, it was a story. I never studied or employed actual Game "techniques" -- one didn't need to. But the book was like the Rosetta Stone of women (that simile is used in the book as well).

    I started getting laid about 10x more. Let me pause here to beat you all to the joke:

    ten times zero still equals zero, buddy-ro
     
    With that out of the way, I'd like to say that "Game" in our day and age was simply the masculinity of another era. It's like how our venerable host has written that the reason Mad Men is so popular is that everyone secretly longs for the bad old days when women were women, and men were men.

    I think there are lot of commenters here who live in various parts of Asia.

    Interesting places.

    Read More
  30. I like 2Blowhards’ short summary of “game” from a few years ago: nerds running normal guy behavior in emulation.

    Read More
  31. @wren
    The happy classic inspirations for the architecture:

    Bernard R. Maybeck was chosen as architect for the Palace of Fine Arts. A student of the École des Beaux-Arts, his design reflects the impression of a Roman ruin. The inspiration for the Palace, with its soaring colonnade, grand rotunda, and carefully constructed pond, was meant to evoke quiet sadness and solemnity. This is most evident as one observes the “weeping ladies” facing into the tops of the columns throughout the park. While visiting a museum in Munich, Maybeck was struck by the Hungarian artist István Csók’s depiction of a scene where the notorious Polish princess Elizabeth Bathory is seen throwing freezing water on her naked servants.

    Maybeck was also influenced by Arnold Böcklin’s Isle of the Dead. This popular work depicts a small island with towering rocks surrounded by water, with trees at the core of the island, and a boatman with mysterious passenger approaching a dark inlet. Maybeck’s choice of inspiration from classical painters was interesting, given that the purpose of the Palace of Fine Arts was to showcase artists at a period of time when modern art was beginning to emerge.
     
    https://palaceoffinearts.org/theatre-history/

    And the young politician who spearheaded its restoration in 1959 was Caspar Weinberger.

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  32. @Steve Sailer
    That's a good idea. They should get together and stage debates.

    I’m not Hanson’s biggest fan, but it would be like putting a heavyweight boxer in the ring against a five year old girl. The she-Zuckerberg is completely lacking in brainpower, erudition or taste. Forget the internet scribbler once called Roissy, I’m beginning to think she would benefit from a week or two at the château de Roissy. Pity she couldn’t meet the standards for admission.

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  33. @Lot
    He is so full of anger and bile that he's unreadable for me. I've tried a few times, a single post does not leave me wanting any more.

    His early writing was fun like the sexual points grading. The last couple years he sounds like a one note song.

    Read More
  34. @Anonym
    The biggest problem with PU Artistry is that one can end up marrying the best/hottest woman he has been able to score with, rather than the best woman he might marry if he were to court her with patience and careful persistence (the game of appearing ambivalent and non-stalker like, while still pursuing your quarry with dogged dedication).

    Practice at game is useful to not seem like an inexperienced sperg in the game of courtship, when it counts. However, it's easy to become sidetracked by the T&A so that one never takes the time to consider what one wants in a wife and what one can achieve in a wife, and pursue that resourcefully and patiently.

    I don't think anyone is perfect. It's a bit like trying to take a good group photo - the odds of everyone looking acceptable are the odds of each individual looking acceptable to the power of the number of people (or multiplied together if you are being anal about people who are better at taking photos than others). Similarly, the more things you have on your list describing the perfect woman, the odds of finding that are approximately the odds of attaining each desirable quality in a random woman, multiplied together. As a practical matter it comes down to compromises for anything but a trivial list.

    Re: the shortcomings of PUA etc., if you’re a guy looking to marry the ‘right’ woman

    Athol Kay has written a couple of good how-to books on the subject, worth looking up. He also discusses ‘marriage game.’

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  35. Athol Kay has written a couple of good how-to books on the subject, worth looking up. He also discusses ‘marriage game.’

    These are the sort of things that if your father doesn’t sit you down and explain to you, you might only learn from experience. So you should resolve to explain it to your own child. But maybe you heed it, maybe you don’t. I don’t think anyone’s said it better than Brian May through Freddy Mercury.

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  36. @Anonym
    Athol Kay has written a couple of good how-to books on the subject, worth looking up. He also discusses ‘marriage game.’

    These are the sort of things that if your father doesn't sit you down and explain to you, you might only learn from experience. So you should resolve to explain it to your own child. But maybe you heed it, maybe you don't. I don't think anyone's said it better than Brian May through Freddy Mercury.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hytYgRmzTs

    *Should be Freddie aka Farrokh Bulsara.

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    • Replies: @Brutusale
    And it would be Dr. Brian May, Commander of Most Excellent Order of the British Empire, PhD in astrophysics and former Chancellor of John Moores University.
  37. Interesting stuff.

    I read a lot of PUA stuff a few years ago, used to read Roissy and then Heartiste quite regularly before he went full WN (even if he’s right it’s not going to get me laid and C0unter-Currents said it better).

    I think it’s most useful for guys at the 30th-80th percentile of natural game, where you’re basically OK at reading social cues but need to deprogram yourself of a lot of the feminist silliness that prevents men from achieving masculinity.

    Below that natural sperginess means you’ll make way too many false moves and are more likely to wind up with rape charges than a girlfriend. (Above that you don’t need a blog. And no, nobody ever accused me of anything.)

    Still, I was able to incorporate some advice like not appearing too needy and not calling attention to your social failure. I recommend his archives highly to any of the younger guys on here. ;)

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  38. @sabril
    Roissy has insisted repeatedly that he is NOT M/o/T if that's what you are getting at.

    Anyway, although she overstates her case, I think she's basically right that the arc of a PUA's life tends towards burnout, loneliness, and social disease.

    Another interesting thing: Roosh posted a picture of her recently. Evidently she is far less attractive than is suggested by the photo she uses.

    The main benefit I got from a brief flirtation with the PUA life several years back was learning to dump all my beta-male behaviors. That change alone instantly improved my dating life substantially, and it wasn’t even difficult.

    The lesson I learned: Women like men who act like men and aren’t ashamed of it, full stop. I wished that somebody had clued me into this very simple truth years earlier, except I realized that someone had: My stodgy old grandparents. Watching old movies really opened my eyes. Most of the “insights” of modern PUAs used to be common knowledge among men, right up until the baby boomers — my parents’ generation — came along and decided to “fix” things.

    Like everything else the boomers tried to fix, they ended up making it much worse.

    Read More
    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Giant Goose
    Also, smaller families mean that a lot of guys nowadays didn't have sisters. That's left a large gap in their knowledge of the world. A boy who's watched teenage girls at close quarters for years won't have many illusions about women later in life.
    , @Mark G.
    A lot of what are now called beta male behaviors actually worked in the days of our stodgy old grandparents. A primary female goal was to find an economic provider and marry him. Men would act a certain way to show they could fill this role. The increase of the welfare state removed the need for women to do this. This includes not just the obvious forms of welfare like income transfers but also lots of indirect forms like government enforced affirmative action which enables women to get higher paying jobs that they could never get just based on their qualifications. Women were now able to pick romantic partners based on looks or personality while having the beta males toil and pay the taxes to support the welfare state and toil in business situations where they were doing more work while being passed over for promotions that were given to less qualified and less hard working females. Eventually, though, beta males figured out that they were getting screwed and rebelled. The PUA lifestyle is just one form of this rebellion. There are multiple other forms like men dropping the pursuit of getting married or even pursuing women at all and pursuit of careers that would support a wife and family. This can be seen in the collapsing marriage rates and men leaving the work force. This is starting to cause an economic decline as we undergo a shift from men working jobs and women marrying the men who are working to men not working and paying taxes at the same time more women come to depend on the welfare state that doesn't have the tax receipts coming in to pay for it. This is a situation that can't and won't last long term. The alpha male strategies as presented by PUA advocates work in the current situation but men will need to shift back to more of a provider role which may entail more beta behaviors and women will need to accept that they can't avoid marriage and sleep with the alpha males because beta males need to be given a reason to work and the primary reason for that has always been to support a wife and children.
    , @ATX Hipster
    Yeah PUA culture's not perfect, but for a young man who's been given advice by his mother and others his whole life that's best summed up as "be a supplicating doormat", it's not a bad way to spend a few years. There's no reason to think these guys are looking for marriage. Many of them are at the end of their rope after years of involuntary celibacy, a horrible way to live with a host of mental health side effects.
    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    I didn't discover Roissy'a blog until after I was married, but as he himself has pointed out, having game can help you strengthen your marriage or otherwise monogamous relationship. Having game or simply losing your beta tendencies greatly reduces the chances of your wife cheating on you or treating you like crap.
  39. On another note, it’s nice to see people doing an end-run around PC by going back to the wisdom of the ages. I’ve had contempt for book-knowledge for a while, but it seems to play a role in regenerating society I didn’t anticipate.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Desiderius

    I’ve had contempt for book-knowledge for a while
     
    You've got to have some life knowledge (a) for the book-knowledge to operate upon and (b) to allow you to choose which books are worthwhile.

    The book-knowledge types who give book-knowledge a bad name skip that step.

    If books serve as merely a refuge from life, they don't.

  40. @eah
    Roosh -- The Public Humiliation Of Mark Zuckerberg’s Sister -- How she wants you to think she looks like:…How she really looks like: -- fazit: the foto she uses with these pieces is very very well-chosen -- so this has some aspects of 'Sailer's Law of Female Journalists'.

    From the Roosh link, Zuckerberg for Jezebel: (emphasis mine)

    The only way to understand the alt-right is to stopping thinking of it as a single monolithic entity and realize that it is a fragile coalition of hateful ideologies, of deplorable men using the internet to perform white masculinity by playacting as Nazis to feed on our fear.

    It’s afraid!

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  41. @Steve Sailer
    I use flattering pictures of myself. Likewise, I suspect the loved ones of that 52-year-old UPS driver who was murdered in the Ithaca Walmart parking lot because he reminded a crazy person of Donald Trump chose a good picture from his prime in his mid-30s or early 40s.

    And well they should.

    Snorlax’s 1st Law of Male Journalism: If they’re at least 6’2″ tall, they’ll make sure to let you know every chance they get.

    ;)

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  42. Check the date again. Zuckerberg’s piece is actually from last year.

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    • Replies: @Thursday
    Was it Zuckerberg/Medium that screwed up the date? Surely the manosphere would have picked up on this before now.
  43. @BenKenobi
    I dunno, I read "The Game" around 2006 (I was 22) and I couldn't put it down. I devoured it in less than 72 hours. It wasn't exactly a manual, it was a story. I never studied or employed actual Game "techniques" -- one didn't need to. But the book was like the Rosetta Stone of women (that simile is used in the book as well).

    I started getting laid about 10x more. Let me pause here to beat you all to the joke:

    ten times zero still equals zero, buddy-ro
     
    With that out of the way, I'd like to say that "Game" in our day and age was simply the masculinity of another era. It's like how our venerable host has written that the reason Mad Men is so popular is that everyone secretly longs for the bad old days when women were women, and men were men.

    everyone secretly longs for the bad old days when women were women, and men were men

    According to Strauss and Howe, that goes in cycles. The Boomers in their solipsism and with their outsize cultural pull tried to stop the cycle at their (androgynous) preferences with predictable results.

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  44. @SFG
    On another note, it's nice to see people doing an end-run around PC by going back to the wisdom of the ages. I've had contempt for book-knowledge for a while, but it seems to play a role in regenerating society I didn't anticipate.

    I’ve had contempt for book-knowledge for a while

    You’ve got to have some life knowledge (a) for the book-knowledge to operate upon and (b) to allow you to choose which books are worthwhile.

    The book-knowledge types who give book-knowledge a bad name skip that step.

    If books serve as merely a refuge from life, they don’t.

    Read More
  45. @sabril
    Roissy has insisted repeatedly that he is NOT M/o/T if that's what you are getting at.

    Anyway, although she overstates her case, I think she's basically right that the arc of a PUA's life tends towards burnout, loneliness, and social disease.

    Another interesting thing: Roosh posted a picture of her recently. Evidently she is far less attractive than is suggested by the photo she uses.

    M/o/T?

    Read More
    • Replies: @sabril

    M/o/T?
     
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mot&defid=1842925
  46. PUAs the fever, SJW is the infection. My sense is that it’s already done it’s job.

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  47. @gruff
    Because Roissy is an extreme white nationalist?

    Roissy (or to give his blog its current name, Heartiste) has gone so white nationalist that I find myself wondering whether it’s actually the same guy writing the blog.

    IIRC, Roissy’s secret identity was revealed a few years ago by a pissed-off female blogger who identified him as an employee of FINRA. I don’t remember the name, but I recall that it was one that’s often considered a “Jewish name.” The current author of Heartiste, on the other hand, is not only a white nationalist but also seems to have antisemitic tendencies, which is another reason I wonder if there hasn’t been a change in personnel. (I’m obviously assuming that (1) Jews are white, and (2) it’s possible to be a white nationalist or a “race realist” without being an anti-Semite.) For all I know, Roissy/Heartiste may be the new Dread Pirate Roberts (minus the drug dealing).

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Out of curiousity, how does Heartiste have a whois without immediately betraying his real name?
    , @ATX Hipster
    To be fair, DPR didn't deal any drugs himself.
    , @Matra
    Roissy (or to give his blog its current name, Heartiste) has gone so white nationalist that I find myself wondering whether it’s actually the same guy writing the blog.

    He was always white nationalist, it's just that he didn't write as much about it until about 2010.
    , @Anonymous
    It was a German surname that's not typically Jewish, but one that some people assumed was Jewish simply because it's German.

    As for whether he's an anti-Semite or not, I don't recall him directly espousing anti-Semitism, but he does frequently indirectly promote anti-Semitic talking points, memes, writers, etc. from the alt-right sphere.
    , @Chrisnonymous

    IIRC, Roissy’s secret identity was revealed a few years ago by a pissed-off female blogger who identified him as an employee of FINRA. -off female blogger who identified him as an employee of FINRA.
     
    There was a photo of "him" partying with a black friend, so I find the WN stuff weird.
  48. @Steve Sailer
    She recently had her husband's baby and she's not a social x-ray at present.

    Tom Wolfe, who was not uneducated in the classics, argued that matrons shouldn't be expected by their culture to be as slender as virgins.

    But that seems to have been been forgotten.

    She recently had her husband’s baby and she’s not a social x-ray at present.

    Tom Wolfe, who was not uneducated in the classics, argued that matrons shouldn’t be expected by their culture to be as slender as virgins.

    But that seems to have been been forgotten.

    Not being fat is about as big a class marker as you’ll find in this country. To be sure, many plump women and portly men circulate in high society, but the difference between classes is still considerable.

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  49. @Daniel H
    If Zuckerberg's brother had learned some game, this man, one of the richest men in the world, maybe wouldn't have ended up married to a peevish, career oriented Chinese (reminiscent of Ellen Pao) who is likely to give him only one child, bossing him around relentlessly.

    Beta is as Beta does.

    Roissy once posted a picture of Z and his wife, and then commented that game was worth a billion dollars.

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  50. @BenKenobi
    I dunno, I read "The Game" around 2006 (I was 22) and I couldn't put it down. I devoured it in less than 72 hours. It wasn't exactly a manual, it was a story. I never studied or employed actual Game "techniques" -- one didn't need to. But the book was like the Rosetta Stone of women (that simile is used in the book as well).

    I started getting laid about 10x more. Let me pause here to beat you all to the joke:

    ten times zero still equals zero, buddy-ro
     
    With that out of the way, I'd like to say that "Game" in our day and age was simply the masculinity of another era. It's like how our venerable host has written that the reason Mad Men is so popular is that everyone secretly longs for the bad old days when women were women, and men were men.

    It was a very entertaining novel. My takeaway was “I bet Neil Strauss wishes he had written this book before he wrote his books on Jenna Jameson and Motley Crüe”.

    And also, the book highlighted that a lot of dudes get into PUA because they have serious personality issues, and many of them learn to program around their issues to get women, but don’t really resolve the underlying issues.

    Also, a while back, somebody who was a character in the book The Game posted on some pictures on a message board of themself hanging out with Mystery and Neil Strauss back when the book was taking place and included some of the “hotties” they were picking up and let’s just say the book may have been a little exaggerated in some parts lol

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    • Agree: BenKenobi
    • Replies: @Light Roast
    That's what I thought of the book - there was definitely some fiction involved. I remember reading one part where the pick-up artists went to Serbia to pick up chicks, and Mystery was able to get out of a sticky situation with some hardened Serbian war vets (Mystery was hitting on one of their women right in front of them, and they did not like that), by doing some cheesy magic trick, claiming to be a wizard, and threatening to cast a harmful spell on them if they didn't back down. So the soldiers backed down.

    The author, Neil Strauss, is a contributing editor at Rolling Stone. Regular iSteve readers know exactly how much they value strict adherence to the truth at that magazine.
  51. @sabril
    Roissy has insisted repeatedly that he is NOT M/o/T if that's what you are getting at.

    Anyway, although she overstates her case, I think she's basically right that the arc of a PUA's life tends towards burnout, loneliness, and social disease.

    Another interesting thing: Roosh posted a picture of her recently. Evidently she is far less attractive than is suggested by the photo she uses.

    Game was invented by thrill seekers, and there is a huge selection effect among men who choose to spend their life in bars every night. So, it’s not the techniques or even the mindset exercises that are necessarily the problem.

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    • Replies: @CK
    If one likes easy women then one goes where the easy women are. Bars are the natural habitat of the schtuppable so that is where one goes.
    The problem with the "easy women" is that they want to overstay their welcome. That is the virtue of the professional. They are paid to not be there in the morning.
    http://freakonomics.com/2009/02/06/i-pay-them-to-leave/
    , @Alec Leamas

    Game was invented by thrill seekers, and there is a huge selection effect among men who choose to spend their life in bars every night. So, it’s not the techniques or even the mindset exercises that are necessarily the problem.
     
    Outside of the NLP sort of magic nonsense, is game much more than observing the behavior of charismatic guys whom girls like and adopting it as one's own, while also observing how women behave in response to male behavior rather than what they say?

    From that perspective game doesn't seem like much more than clearing away the propaganda promoted by society generally and by women specifically which would have men in waiting to be chosen at the election of women. It's just a way to be a more active, choosy participant in your own choosing.
  52. I’m confused. Donna Zuckerberg is a doctrinaire feminist (“affirmative consent” is a dead giveaway that she feeds daily on a diet of Jezebel etc.). Third wave feminists are purportedly “sex positive” and encourage girls to be sluts and to seek sexual pleasure free of the pressures and meddling of patriarchal institutions and families. If sauce is good for the goose, why is it so bad for the gander? Why should women pursue sexual pleasure and notch counts with abandon, but men be hemmed in by conservative notions of male chivalry on the one side and doctrinaire feminism on the other side?

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    • Replies: @snorlax
    Because men and women are different.

    To a man, an unwanted sexual advance from a woman is at worst annoying. To a woman, an unwanted advance, especially in isolated or unfamiliar surroundings, is often a terrifying experience because there's always [to her] the implicit possibility of being beaten and/or raped if she refuses.

    In simpler terms women pose no physical threat to men, while men pose a very serious physical threat to women.

    One thing feminists and many male anti-feminists have in common is the tendency to selectively play dumb about the differences between the sexes.
    , @AndrewR
    Male and female sexual strategies are essentially a zero-sum game, and feminism seeks to maximize female liberty while maximally restructing male liberty.
    , @Jefferson
    "Third wave feminists are purportedly “sex positive” and encourage girls to be sluts and to seek sexual pleasure free of the pressures and meddling of patriarchal institutions and families."

    So 3rd wave feminists are loose sluts who want men to grab them by their pussies? So they all voted for Donald J. Trump right?
  53. Say what she will, the PUA community has helped me by allowing me to understand what women that I want would want from me and by existing as a community of mostly men to associate with.

    Those two things are priceless.

    It did not prevent me from forming a stable relationship.

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    • Agree: Abe
    • Replies: @Opinionator
    What are the things you have come to understand?
  54. I still don’t see the point of this piling on. There’s no real criticism, or even attempt at commentary, regarding what Zuckerberg actually wrote . . . a year ago. It’s just another, “Hey look — Mark Zuckerberg’s sister wrote something again .”

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  55. @Mr. Blank
    The main benefit I got from a brief flirtation with the PUA life several years back was learning to dump all my beta-male behaviors. That change alone instantly improved my dating life substantially, and it wasn't even difficult.

    The lesson I learned: Women like men who act like men and aren't ashamed of it, full stop. I wished that somebody had clued me into this very simple truth years earlier, except I realized that someone had: My stodgy old grandparents. Watching old movies really opened my eyes. Most of the "insights" of modern PUAs used to be common knowledge among men, right up until the baby boomers -- my parents' generation -- came along and decided to "fix" things.

    Like everything else the boomers tried to fix, they ended up making it much worse.

    Also, smaller families mean that a lot of guys nowadays didn’t have sisters. That’s left a large gap in their knowledge of the world. A boy who’s watched teenage girls at close quarters for years won’t have many illusions about women later in life.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Formerly CARealist
    That's interesting. do you think guys who had sisters ultimately make better husbands? I would think that girls who have strong, involved fathers would make good wives, except maybe their expectations would be too high.

    As to Steve's comment about matrons not needing to be as thin as virgins, personally I think we should all aspire to a happy medium. No need to starve as a young woman, no need to pig out when a mom. I'm the same both before and after giving birth three times.
  56. @Thursday
    Game was invented by thrill seekers, and there is a huge selection effect among men who choose to spend their life in bars every night. So, it's not the techniques or even the mindset exercises that are necessarily the problem.

    If one likes easy women then one goes where the easy women are. Bars are the natural habitat of the schtuppable so that is where one goes.
    The problem with the “easy women” is that they want to overstay their welcome. That is the virtue of the professional. They are paid to not be there in the morning.

    http://freakonomics.com/2009/02/06/i-pay-them-to-leave/

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    • Replies: @Thursday
    The bar is a good place to practice. But normal people don't spend years there.
    , @Jefferson
    "If one likes easy women then one goes where the easy women are."

    Colin Quinn once said the easiest women in New York City are Puerto Rican women. He joked that most of them start having sex as early as middle school.
  57. @Lot
    He is so full of anger and bile that he's unreadable for me. I've tried a few times, a single post does not leave me wanting any more.

    He’s definitely on the extreme end, but that doesn’t mean that his thoughts don’t have some degree of truth. I read him every now and then, he’s interesting in very small quantities.

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  58. I haven’t read Return of Kings or Roosh’ blog for a long time, but I do follow Chateau Heartiste/ Roissy. He can, of course, defend himself, but my read of CH is that his advice on game is to give beta males a “fighting chance” in the dating game. The traditional beta male attraction was his stability and the hazards that women faced in unprotected sex with alpha males who refused to commit (e.g., pregnancy and abandonment). Effective female contraception and economic self-sufficiency have minimized those hazards, so women feel free to have sex with alphas and ignore betas, at least until their sexual market value starts its precipitous decline in their early 30s. “Game” gives a beta male a shot at those women while they are still in their prime–the alpha has “natural game,” and little need for CH’s advice. I’ve never detected in CH a dislike for well-socialized women who decline to ride the “alpha cock carousel.”

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "He can, of course, defend himself, but my read of CH is that his advice on game is to give beta males a “fighting chance” in the dating game."

    Except Roissy is in his 40's, still single, Jewish, and childless.

    "The traditional beta male attraction was his stability and the hazards that women faced in unprotected sex with alpha males who refused to commit (e.g., pregnancy and abandonment)."

    The traditional beta male is actually the alpha male because of his stability. The alpha male is in reality the cad male, one who generates temporary "tingles".

    "Effective female contraception and economic self-sufficiency have minimized those hazards, so women feel free to have sex with alphas and ignore betas..."

    Women have sex with whom they are attracted to, either when sober or when drunk, with men.

    "at least until their sexual market value starts its precipitous decline in their early 30s."

    The sexual market value is a mythical creation of Roissy purely designed to minimize men's own physical decline when they drink too much beer and eat too many carbohydrates.

    “Game” gives a beta male a shot at those women while they are still in their prime–the alpha has “natural game,” and little need for CH’s advice. "

    That is surprising to me, since the number of self-proclaimed "alphas" on his blog routinely discuss their scores, thanking him for upping their notch count with his philosophy.

    "I’ve never detected in CH a dislike for well-socialized women who decline to ride the “alpha cock carousel.”

    How noble. See, the issue with CH is he offers advice to men to entice women to have sex with them. When women refuse, then he advocates "on to the next to plunder". When she does finally capitulate, he "pumps and dumps". The blame is squarely placed on women, rather than men and women, for having sex outside of marriage.

    I thought men being the superior were able to tame their sexual aggressiveness and guide the woman toward courtship, marriage, and having children.
  59. @eah
    Roosh -- The Public Humiliation Of Mark Zuckerberg’s Sister -- How she wants you to think she looks like:…How she really looks like: -- fazit: the foto she uses with these pieces is very very well-chosen -- so this has some aspects of 'Sailer's Law of Female Journalists'.

    Roosh looks like an Arab, so while those macho Arab types think they are Gods gift to women, there is a reason they don’t tend become leading men in movies or the darlings of boy bands.

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    • Replies: @SFG
    Fun fact: never call an Iranian an Arab. It's like Japanese and Chinese. We can't tell them apart, but they've got a long and bloody history, and they hate each other.

    Iranians in particular are proud of their long history (they were the Persians going after us at Thermopylae) and that they actually had culture before Islam. They have books and books of densely allusive poetry it might be fun to read if you had an extra lifetime to learn the language and all the references.

  60. @Seamus
    Roissy (or to give his blog its current name, Heartiste) has gone so white nationalist that I find myself wondering whether it's actually the same guy writing the blog.

    IIRC, Roissy's secret identity was revealed a few years ago by a pissed-off female blogger who identified him as an employee of FINRA. I don't remember the name, but I recall that it was one that's often considered a "Jewish name." The current author of Heartiste, on the other hand, is not only a white nationalist but also seems to have antisemitic tendencies, which is another reason I wonder if there hasn't been a change in personnel. (I'm obviously assuming that (1) Jews are white, and (2) it's possible to be a white nationalist or a "race realist" without being an anti-Semite.) For all I know, Roissy/Heartiste may be the new Dread Pirate Roberts (minus the drug dealing).

    Out of curiousity, how does Heartiste have a whois without immediately betraying his real name?

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    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool
    Don't go into money laundering if you have to ask questions like that. Do wordpress hosted sites even have whois data?
  61. @Thursday
    Game was invented by thrill seekers, and there is a huge selection effect among men who choose to spend their life in bars every night. So, it's not the techniques or even the mindset exercises that are necessarily the problem.

    Game was invented by thrill seekers, and there is a huge selection effect among men who choose to spend their life in bars every night. So, it’s not the techniques or even the mindset exercises that are necessarily the problem.

    Outside of the NLP sort of magic nonsense, is game much more than observing the behavior of charismatic guys whom girls like and adopting it as one’s own, while also observing how women behave in response to male behavior rather than what they say?

    From that perspective game doesn’t seem like much more than clearing away the propaganda promoted by society generally and by women specifically which would have men in waiting to be chosen at the election of women. It’s just a way to be a more active, choosy participant in your own choosing.

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  62. One of the blind spots in Zuckerberg’s article is the inability to discern the vast and growing winner-take-all inequality in status among men.

    Her thesis relies on her acting as if there is no such thing as a naturally popular man who others will predictably seek to mimic.

    Its constant, feeble “you’ll regret your misconduct when you’re older…!” scoldings also assume young men are persuadable by appeals to risk aversion.

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  63. @Daniel Chieh
    Say what she will, the PUA community has helped me by allowing me to understand what women that I want would want from me and by existing as a community of mostly men to associate with.

    Those two things are priceless.

    It did not prevent me from forming a stable relationship.

    What are the things you have come to understand?

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    That most women fantasize and appreciate appreciate dominant behaviors from men. Taken to its extreme, it can get pretty silly but understanding that urge to feel dominated vastly improved my ability to interact with women. It hasn't solved all my problems, but it certainly has increased the amount of female company I get. Given that I was pretty much a shut-in before that, its been pretty cool.

    As far as I see it, PUA is just a marketing manual with a specific "customer base." Its very similar, in many ways, to marketing and persuasion science that I worked with in my degree program. Mind you, marketing was seen as a kind of black science once too. People tend to dislike anything that disturbs their fantasies of being above-average, fully independent, mentally free demigods.

    I think the mistake that people can take from perspectives is that by understanding one aspect of women, men or whatever, they then try to broadly apply it. For example, the Stanford experiment teaches us a lot about the human need for conformity, but to try to explain every human behavior in terms of conformity, its not as meaningful. Same goes for the male need for respect, but it can't be used to explain all masculine behavior. Distinctive female needs and behaviors exist, and are biological in origin, but can't be used to explain everything and by itself, do not cause the end of Western Civilization or something like that.
  64. Roissy has too many true but unflattering things to say about women, thus Zuckerberg’s sister won’t even mention him.

    As far as PUA goes, well women redefined marriage successfully. So now they must reap the kind of men they sowed. The idea that men will just beta-cuck it up, and accept women’s dictates that marriage is a contract where women can sleep around and men provide the beta bucks — as seems to be the case in all those teacher-student affairs, or the tragic Naegle murder (nurse-teacher has an affair with a student/friend who murders her) — is no longer stable.

    Instead men are adapting to limitless female sexuality. By their own. Marriage is sliding towards either formalized Muslim polygamy; which of course women love but men detest as it prices out 90% of men; or African style levels of casual charismatic sex and no commitments or paternal support.

    Bottom line women can have sexy men, or men who provide support. They can’t have both and women having chosen the sexy men cannot call it back. The natural and inevitable response to female sexual liberation is male PUA and lack of commitment. I’ll see you a PUA ending up alone with women ending up with kids and no husband.

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  65. @gruff
    Because Roissy is an extreme white nationalist?

    Because Roissy is an extreme white nationalist?

    The original Roissy was “outed” a bit by a crazy slut single-mom hate-ah after divulging too many specifics/photos of his DC dating exploits and had to underground? The proprietor of the Chateau may be a different person now, or a collective of writers, as is often hinted-at in the posts.

    I honestly regret the loss of more game-specific content and “field reports” in favor of purely political rants (not that those aren’t great too) as those were very useful (yes, gentlemen, game doesn’t stop just because you’re married**) and- at their finest- had a poetic sublimity just like Trump’s Axis Hollywood aria about being overthrown by beauty and being powerless to do anything but immediately kiss on it.

    Anyway, though, I distinctly remember Roissy ending a post with a “yours in Yahweh” sign-off, so possibly he (or one of the he’s in the collective now branded as Roissy) is really a (((he))) ?

    ** Merry Christmas, Steve! And totally understand if this does not get posted till well into the first week of 2017. Have to figure out what to buy my wife in the next few days as well. We’ve been married long enough that I’ve exhausted all the big ticket items, and honestly our house is so cluttered now that it’s taken the fun out of one-off novelty items as well (AI robodog with Shiatsu-massagin action!). So basically we get stocking-stuffers for each other, plus buy one big item for ourselves well before Christmas day. Practical, if not very magical. Wondering if you have a better system…

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  66. @Alec Leamas
    I'm confused. Donna Zuckerberg is a doctrinaire feminist ("affirmative consent" is a dead giveaway that she feeds daily on a diet of Jezebel etc.). Third wave feminists are purportedly "sex positive" and encourage girls to be sluts and to seek sexual pleasure free of the pressures and meddling of patriarchal institutions and families. If sauce is good for the goose, why is it so bad for the gander? Why should women pursue sexual pleasure and notch counts with abandon, but men be hemmed in by conservative notions of male chivalry on the one side and doctrinaire feminism on the other side?

    Because men and women are different.

    To a man, an unwanted sexual advance from a woman is at worst annoying. To a woman, an unwanted advance, especially in isolated or unfamiliar surroundings, is often a terrifying experience because there’s always [to her] the implicit possibility of being beaten and/or raped if she refuses.

    In simpler terms women pose no physical threat to men, while men pose a very serious physical threat to women.

    One thing feminists and many male anti-feminists have in common is the tendency to selectively play dumb about the differences between the sexes.

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    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    I think you're over-egging the pudding here. As a result, you've lost the plot entirely.

    There is some truth in the proposition that women risk more in terms of bodily safety than men in attracting the opposite sex (although you're discounting the fact that attracting another man's woman can often end in violence). That said, women often do incredibly stupid and unsafe things in the pursuit of attracting men, for example walking around in a downtown area at night dressed in skimpy outfits and high heels after having had several drinks. So I don't thing this is the motivation for the emotional reaction to teachers and practitioners of game. (Feminists refuse to counsel women to take a more proactive approach to ensure their safety in public, so I doubt they sincerely care much about the safety of other women).

    The reason feminists and other women don't like the idea of game or men improving their charisma is because they relish women being the choosers in the sexual marketplace and they're concerned that they'll be "fooled" by a man who is able to fake a high status that he doesn't possess in fact. They want to be able to "explore their sexuality" with the top echelons of men (notice that feminists generally don't care about those guys settling down and living fulfilling relationships) without ending up with a dud dressed as a stud. The angst is rooted in the female Id, which is terrified that she'll get stuck with less than optimal genetic contribution in her children - and for most of human history it was nearly impossible to get out of such a situation.

    It's also the case that they've been at the faking game for decades and want to maintain a monopoly on it. Google image search "Cosmopolitan magazine covers" and you'll immediately understand what I'm writing. Each edition advertises techniques to emotionally and sexually manipulate men amongst makeup and beauty tips to hide fat, enhance the bust, conceal wrinkles, disguise short legs, etc. It's anxiety that men might now have their own bag of tricks to enhance their own perceived mate value.
    , @Corvinus
    "To a woman, an unwanted advance, especially in isolated or unfamiliar surroundings, is often a terrifying experience because there’s always [to her] the implicit possibility of being beaten and/or raped if she refuses."

    For ONLY those woman who think in this manner. You make the assumption that it is more often than not women will experience panic and their mace can out because a guy made a "romantic overture".
    , @Sean
    Donna is complaining about females' hard wired preference for mating with men who will father a womanising son to spread the mother's genes far and wide (AKA the sexy son hypothesis).

    . ... there are underlying flaws in the concept of seduction as a teachable skill
     
    True, getting a girl is like looking for work, it's tough at the entry level or when unemployed; you need a job to get a job. Women want men who already have a woman and thus have a proven ability to get women. It all boils down to making the targeted female think that you must have already seduced an awful lot of women.
    , @ogunsiron

    To a woman, an unwanted advance, especially in isolated or unfamiliar surroundings, is often a terrifying experience because there’s always [to her] the implicit possibility of being beaten and/or raped if she refuses.
     
    You think it's reasonable for an average swipple female to be afraid of getting raped and killed by a fellow swipple male if she refuses his advances ? It doesn't seem very reasonable to me. I get it that we have instincts but we're called to reign in our instincts sometimes. It is possible for some women to have a fear of men that is not reasonable and one should be able to criticize that unreasonableness.
    , @Jefferson
    "In simpler terms women pose no physical threat to men, while men pose a very serious physical threat to women."

    According to Hollywood, women pose an extreme physical threat to men. Hence why Jennifer Aniston for example can single-handedly beat up 2 Russian gangsters with her bare hands in the film Office Christmas Party.

    "To a man, an unwanted sexual advance from a woman is at worst annoying. To a woman, an unwanted advance, especially in isolated or unfamiliar surroundings, is often a terrifying experience because there’s always [to her] the implicit possibility of being beaten and/or raped if she refuses."

    A woman who automatically assumes any guy who approaches her wants to rape her, beat her, or murder her must live in an extremely vibrantly diverse part of The U.S. After all there have been studies have shown vibrant diversity causes more distrust of strangers. These women who believe every man is a potential OJ Simpson in the making definitely does not live in a Whitopia.

  67. @Giant Goose
    Also, smaller families mean that a lot of guys nowadays didn't have sisters. That's left a large gap in their knowledge of the world. A boy who's watched teenage girls at close quarters for years won't have many illusions about women later in life.

    That’s interesting. do you think guys who had sisters ultimately make better husbands? I would think that girls who have strong, involved fathers would make good wives, except maybe their expectations would be too high.

    As to Steve’s comment about matrons not needing to be as thin as virgins, personally I think we should all aspire to a happy medium. No need to starve as a young woman, no need to pig out when a mom. I’m the same both before and after giving birth three times.

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  68. @Daniel H
    If Zuckerberg's brother had learned some game, this man, one of the richest men in the world, maybe wouldn't have ended up married to a peevish, career oriented Chinese (reminiscent of Ellen Pao) who is likely to give him only one child, bossing him around relentlessly.

    Beta is as Beta does.

    If Zuckerberg’s brother had learned some game, this man, one of the richest men in the world, maybe wouldn’t have ended up married to a peevish, career oriented Chinese (reminiscent of Ellen Pao) who is likely to give him only one child, bossing him around relentlessly.

    Well, given that his wife is a Chinese Harvard graduate who married her college sweetheart, chances are extremely good that ol’ Marcus Aurelizuck is the only man she’s ever been intimate with, and maybe even kissed. And in terms of overall lifetime happiness for a man who seems mostly focused on building his business empire, that’s something. Zuck is also probably free of that Portnoy satyriasis gene that has so recently shaken the foundations of our Empire (destruction of the Presidential ambitions of the very formidable Eliot Spitzer, and of course the whole Anthony Weiner fiasco). Even that pretty cerebral co-founder of Google messed up his life and got divorced after committing the Current Year version of cheating with the office secretary. Of course you don’t hear much about it because it’s not Un-fake News….

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  69. @NickG
    Roissy may be lacking a tad in PeeCee sensibility, but he does write surprisingly well.

    Roissy is a national treasure

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  70. @Opinionator
    She is neither a good writer nor a deep thinker. Similar to her brother.

    She is curiously tone deaf to language. Witness her pedantic aside on the title “Art of Love.” Art in English has the same connotations are Ars in Latin: we even have a high profile example resurfacing in the news: Donald Trump entitled his book The Art of the Deal. Perhaps “The Lover’s Art” would be a better translation, but “The Seducer’s Craft” gets Ovid’s tone all wrong, and suggest Zuckerberg’s way of thinking, not Ovid’s.

    My guess is that, like her brother, she has high non-verbal intelligence, but comparatively low verbal intelligence.

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  71. @Anonym
    The biggest problem with PU Artistry is that one can end up marrying the best/hottest woman he has been able to score with, rather than the best woman he might marry if he were to court her with patience and careful persistence (the game of appearing ambivalent and non-stalker like, while still pursuing your quarry with dogged dedication).

    Practice at game is useful to not seem like an inexperienced sperg in the game of courtship, when it counts. However, it's easy to become sidetracked by the T&A so that one never takes the time to consider what one wants in a wife and what one can achieve in a wife, and pursue that resourcefully and patiently.

    I don't think anyone is perfect. It's a bit like trying to take a good group photo - the odds of everyone looking acceptable are the odds of each individual looking acceptable to the power of the number of people (or multiplied together if you are being anal about people who are better at taking photos than others). Similarly, the more things you have on your list describing the perfect woman, the odds of finding that are approximately the odds of attaining each desirable quality in a random woman, multiplied together. As a practical matter it comes down to compromises for anything but a trivial list.

    Speaking of Classics and wife material: While everyone was trying to marry the Beautiful Helen and pledged a pact of mutual support to whomever won her hand which then tied everyone into the war against Troy… wise Odysseus focused instead on Penelope (said to be either the sister or cousin of Helen) which turned out to be… not a face that launched a thousand ships, but which kept the home fires burning instead…

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  72. @CK
    If one likes easy women then one goes where the easy women are. Bars are the natural habitat of the schtuppable so that is where one goes.
    The problem with the "easy women" is that they want to overstay their welcome. That is the virtue of the professional. They are paid to not be there in the morning.
    http://freakonomics.com/2009/02/06/i-pay-them-to-leave/

    The bar is a good place to practice. But normal people don’t spend years there.

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    • Replies: @Abe

    The bar is a good place to practice. But normal people don’t spend years there.
     
    That's a strawman argument. The point of GAME is to teach the garden-variety average schlub (i.e. beta males) the psychology, and in particular the romantic psychology, of women which they find so daunting and alien. This is useful in EVERY FACET OF LIFE, whether it's picking up on the romantic interest of a co-worker/business associate and knowing how to gracefully deflect it if you're not interested or don't want the messiness such an affair would entail, knowing if a relative's wife may be cheating on him and preparing for that fall-out, or even in the bowels of blissful matrimony, where game still does not end (no matter how many years you've been together, how many children you've raised, etc. a very large chunk of your wife's self-esteem is still invested in how HAAWT she feels herself to be relative to other women- and, no, burbling to her how you'd love her even if she were 300 lbs. and had a bad case of shingles is absolutely NOT THE RIGHT strategy).

    Again, the notion that if you have positive things to say about GAME makes you Leisure Suit Larry is spurious. If I like intense bicycling does that make me want to dope my blood, get testicular cancer, and marry Sheryl Crow? If I want to learn to play HIGHWAY TO HELL and HEARTBREAKER on electric guitar for the adulation of friends and family do I have to schedule time for a heroin overdose in there too?
  73. @snorlax
    Because men and women are different.

    To a man, an unwanted sexual advance from a woman is at worst annoying. To a woman, an unwanted advance, especially in isolated or unfamiliar surroundings, is often a terrifying experience because there's always [to her] the implicit possibility of being beaten and/or raped if she refuses.

    In simpler terms women pose no physical threat to men, while men pose a very serious physical threat to women.

    One thing feminists and many male anti-feminists have in common is the tendency to selectively play dumb about the differences between the sexes.

    I think you’re over-egging the pudding here. As a result, you’ve lost the plot entirely.

    There is some truth in the proposition that women risk more in terms of bodily safety than men in attracting the opposite sex (although you’re discounting the fact that attracting another man’s woman can often end in violence). That said, women often do incredibly stupid and unsafe things in the pursuit of attracting men, for example walking around in a downtown area at night dressed in skimpy outfits and high heels after having had several drinks. So I don’t thing this is the motivation for the emotional reaction to teachers and practitioners of game. (Feminists refuse to counsel women to take a more proactive approach to ensure their safety in public, so I doubt they sincerely care much about the safety of other women).

    The reason feminists and other women don’t like the idea of game or men improving their charisma is because they relish women being the choosers in the sexual marketplace and they’re concerned that they’ll be “fooled” by a man who is able to fake a high status that he doesn’t possess in fact. They want to be able to “explore their sexuality” with the top echelons of men (notice that feminists generally don’t care about those guys settling down and living fulfilling relationships) without ending up with a dud dressed as a stud. The angst is rooted in the female Id, which is terrified that she’ll get stuck with less than optimal genetic contribution in her children – and for most of human history it was nearly impossible to get out of such a situation.

    It’s also the case that they’ve been at the faking game for decades and want to maintain a monopoly on it. Google image search “Cosmopolitan magazine covers” and you’ll immediately understand what I’m writing. Each edition advertises techniques to emotionally and sexually manipulate men amongst makeup and beauty tips to hide fat, enhance the bust, conceal wrinkles, disguise short legs, etc. It’s anxiety that men might now have their own bag of tricks to enhance their own perceived mate value.

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  74. @Fiddlesticks
    Check the date again. Zuckerberg's piece is actually from last year.

    Was it Zuckerberg/Medium that screwed up the date? Surely the manosphere would have picked up on this before now.

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  75. @Mr. Blank
    The main benefit I got from a brief flirtation with the PUA life several years back was learning to dump all my beta-male behaviors. That change alone instantly improved my dating life substantially, and it wasn't even difficult.

    The lesson I learned: Women like men who act like men and aren't ashamed of it, full stop. I wished that somebody had clued me into this very simple truth years earlier, except I realized that someone had: My stodgy old grandparents. Watching old movies really opened my eyes. Most of the "insights" of modern PUAs used to be common knowledge among men, right up until the baby boomers -- my parents' generation -- came along and decided to "fix" things.

    Like everything else the boomers tried to fix, they ended up making it much worse.

    A lot of what are now called beta male behaviors actually worked in the days of our stodgy old grandparents. A primary female goal was to find an economic provider and marry him. Men would act a certain way to show they could fill this role. The increase of the welfare state removed the need for women to do this. This includes not just the obvious forms of welfare like income transfers but also lots of indirect forms like government enforced affirmative action which enables women to get higher paying jobs that they could never get just based on their qualifications. Women were now able to pick romantic partners based on looks or personality while having the beta males toil and pay the taxes to support the welfare state and toil in business situations where they were doing more work while being passed over for promotions that were given to less qualified and less hard working females. Eventually, though, beta males figured out that they were getting screwed and rebelled. The PUA lifestyle is just one form of this rebellion. There are multiple other forms like men dropping the pursuit of getting married or even pursuing women at all and pursuit of careers that would support a wife and family. This can be seen in the collapsing marriage rates and men leaving the work force. This is starting to cause an economic decline as we undergo a shift from men working jobs and women marrying the men who are working to men not working and paying taxes at the same time more women come to depend on the welfare state that doesn’t have the tax receipts coming in to pay for it. This is a situation that can’t and won’t last long term. The alpha male strategies as presented by PUA advocates work in the current situation but men will need to shift back to more of a provider role which may entail more beta behaviors and women will need to accept that they can’t avoid marriage and sleep with the alpha males because beta males need to be given a reason to work and the primary reason for that has always been to support a wife and children.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Blank
    Yep. This is the root cause of all systemic failures, whether in sports, culture, business, government, religion, relations between the sexes, whatever:

    A generation comes along and decides that they can safely quit emphasizing fundamentals, because they believe the fundamentals are so dead obvious that people will just naturally absorb them, without any outside reinforcement. Instead, they decide to invest heavily in marginal improvements at the bleeding edge.

    At first, this new approach provides substantial gains, because this first generation is already steeped in the fundamentals, so their experiments are fruitful and productive.

    Then along comes a new generation that never learns the fundamentals. What had seemed obvious to their elders is not obvious to them, because nobody ever sits them down and explains the rules. This generation launches immediately into the bleeding-edge stuff, but makes a mess of everything because they have no idea what the hell they are doing. They're just blindly flailing away, with no rhyme or reason.

    This is the point we're at now in the West. We've got a generation that can't even grasp something as basic as male and female biology, for crying out loud.

    Next comes a generation that painfully relearns all the fundamentals. Fearing a return to the Crazy Years, they try to construct a mechanism by which the fundamentals will be inculcated in the coming generations automatically. They try to make the mechanism as idiot-proof as possible, hoping this will prevent future generations from mucking it up. They try to emphasize to the coming generations how important this all is, and stress to them how lucky they are, because they'll be inheriting this awesome set-it-and-forget-it mechanism. Just grease the gears and change the filters every now and then -- that's all you have to do!

    Unfortunately, their sincere, heartfelt warnings and advice tend to strike up-and-coming generations as a bit corny and over-the-top.

    Then another generation comes along and believes they can turn the mechanism off and sell it for scrap, because the fundamentals are so dead obvious that people will just naturally absorb them, without any outside reinforcement...

    And on and on, ad infinitum.

    Or as a popular Facebook meme puts it: Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.
    , @JSM
    Eventually, though, beta males figured out that they were getting screwed and rebelled. The PUA lifestyle is just one form of this rebellion. There are multiple other forms like men dropping the pursuit of getting married or even pursuing women at all and pursuit of careers that would support a wife and family

    Aye. And the whole sorry mess is a good illustration of the old adage about cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

    Those MGTOWs who are dropping pursuing women are going to be 70 someday, and alone, and likely facing a diagnosis like brain cancer. They will have, whilst counting the minutes til the next morphine dose to be administered by his harried, indifferent Filipino nurse, plenty of uninterrupted moments to contemplate their lives of utter insignificance.

    Because, does it really matter how many times they leveled up in Call of Duty if they didn't really meet any true Calls of Duty in real life?

    An aging harridan has, at least, a Soft Kitty, Warm Kitty to comfort her.

  76. @Lot
    He is so full of anger and bile that he's unreadable for me. I've tried a few times, a single post does not leave me wanting any more.

    I’m the opposite, can’t get enough. Heartiste is always good for a caustically cathartic laugh or five. It’s tough to think of anyone superior in the raw talent department, besides this blog’s learned host of course.

    In this philistine’s mind the Heatisian prose often ascends to poetic heights.

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  77. @Thursday
    The bar is a good place to practice. But normal people don't spend years there.

    The bar is a good place to practice. But normal people don’t spend years there.

    That’s a strawman argument. The point of GAME is to teach the garden-variety average schlub (i.e. beta males) the psychology, and in particular the romantic psychology, of women which they find so daunting and alien. This is useful in EVERY FACET OF LIFE, whether it’s picking up on the romantic interest of a co-worker/business associate and knowing how to gracefully deflect it if you’re not interested or don’t want the messiness such an affair would entail, knowing if a relative’s wife may be cheating on him and preparing for that fall-out, or even in the bowels of blissful matrimony, where game still does not end (no matter how many years you’ve been together, how many children you’ve raised, etc. a very large chunk of your wife’s self-esteem is still invested in how HAAWT she feels herself to be relative to other women- and, no, burbling to her how you’d love her even if she were 300 lbs. and had a bad case of shingles is absolutely NOT THE RIGHT strategy).

    Again, the notion that if you have positive things to say about GAME makes you Leisure Suit Larry is spurious. If I like intense bicycling does that make me want to dope my blood, get testicular cancer, and marry Sheryl Crow? If I want to learn to play HIGHWAY TO HELL and HEARTBREAKER on electric guitar for the adulation of friends and family do I have to schedule time for a heroin overdose in there too?

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  78. @Opinionator
    She is neither a good writer nor a deep thinker. Similar to her brother.

    She is neither a good writer nor a deep thinker. Similar to her brother.

    Doesn’t Zuck have an every ditzier other sister?

    Personality-wise I actually think Donna is pretty cute, and getting a PhD (OK, it’s not particle physics, but it’s not a “Studies” major either) is nothing to sneeze at, particularly if it involves fluency in another language (or two). She writes 10X more lucidly than Ta Genius, has made a basic effort to understand her subject, and even throws in cute references to guy-stuff like gangster rap or GAME OF THRONES.

    Personally I think all of this is a cry for the tall, dark, and bearded Roosh to sweep her off her feet (bonus points for some kinky Esther/Haman bedroom roleplay later..)

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  79. @Lot
    He is so full of anger and bile that he's unreadable for me. I've tried a few times, a single post does not leave me wanting any more.

    You sir, are a cuck. Roissy/Heartiste is a very influential writer, and greatly healped Trump get elected. Get your T-level checked, pajama-boy.

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  80. Is there anything more contradictory than a feminist navel-gazing op-ed piece on the Classics? Donna Zuckerberg is a poseur. I want to know what she got on her Latin AP exam. I also want to know how much longer she plans to embarrass herself on a public blog.

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  81. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    From the Roosh link, Zuckerberg for Jezebel: (emphasis mine)

    The only way to understand the alt-right is to stopping thinking of it as a single monolithic entity and realize that it is a fragile coalition of hateful ideologies, of deplorable men using the internet to perform white masculinity by playacting as Nazis to feed on our fear.
     
    It’s afraid!

    Thanks for that — she really is infantile.

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  82. @Alec Leamas
    I'm confused. Donna Zuckerberg is a doctrinaire feminist ("affirmative consent" is a dead giveaway that she feeds daily on a diet of Jezebel etc.). Third wave feminists are purportedly "sex positive" and encourage girls to be sluts and to seek sexual pleasure free of the pressures and meddling of patriarchal institutions and families. If sauce is good for the goose, why is it so bad for the gander? Why should women pursue sexual pleasure and notch counts with abandon, but men be hemmed in by conservative notions of male chivalry on the one side and doctrinaire feminism on the other side?

    Male and female sexual strategies are essentially a zero-sum game, and feminism seeks to maximize female liberty while maximally restructing male liberty.

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    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool

    Male and female sexual strategies are essentially a zero-sum game, and feminism seeks to maximize female liberty while maximally restricting male liberty.
     
    In any tractable game being played by two intelligent agents, the goal, in the absence of significant evidence indicating irrationality in the opponent's strategy, is to minimize the maximum gain that one's opponent can realize. In technical jargon this is called the Minimax Theorum, credited to (((John Von Neumann)))*. In this sense, the above quote reflects positively on feminism as being a rational and competent ideology from a two-player, game theoretic standpoint.

    Psychopathy researcher Robert Hare has noted multiple times that the highest scoring psychopaths on the PCLr seem to have a natural intuition for applying game theoretic concepts in order to maximally exploit social situations. In this case however, their opponents usually are not acting rationally, giving the psychopath additional information by which he can set aside a minimax strategy and instead maximally exploit his target. Again, this is a good strategy from a two-player-game perspective.

    These are the correct, rational courses of action for two player games but there are two problems: 1) society is not a two player game and 2) psychopaths are the limit of anti-social behavior and are thus totally incompatible with society by definition. An ideology operating on psychopathic principals must therefore be incompatible as well, as its principal feature is recruiting then shaping the behavior of its adherents.

    *parenthetic EoE

  83. @Amasius
    Ovid's my favorite Latin poet, so it's really awesome to see him rustling jimmies 2000 years on. Got the whole six-volume set in Loeb Classics. William Luther Pierce liked him too, quoting him in his "Out of the Darkness" speech: "Night is a sadder time than day." (tristior idcirco nox est quam tempora Phoebi.)

    As for Donna, don't let the manosphere bros break your spirit: "Perfer et obdura, dolor hic tibi proderit olim."

    Ovid’s my favorite Latin poet,

    Chaucer was also very fond of Ovid.

    And reading Ovid’s Metamorphoses is probably the most pleasurable way to get acquainted with Classical mythology.

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  84. @Mr. Blank
    The main benefit I got from a brief flirtation with the PUA life several years back was learning to dump all my beta-male behaviors. That change alone instantly improved my dating life substantially, and it wasn't even difficult.

    The lesson I learned: Women like men who act like men and aren't ashamed of it, full stop. I wished that somebody had clued me into this very simple truth years earlier, except I realized that someone had: My stodgy old grandparents. Watching old movies really opened my eyes. Most of the "insights" of modern PUAs used to be common knowledge among men, right up until the baby boomers -- my parents' generation -- came along and decided to "fix" things.

    Like everything else the boomers tried to fix, they ended up making it much worse.

    Yeah PUA culture’s not perfect, but for a young man who’s been given advice by his mother and others his whole life that’s best summed up as “be a supplicating doormat”, it’s not a bad way to spend a few years. There’s no reason to think these guys are looking for marriage. Many of them are at the end of their rope after years of involuntary celibacy, a horrible way to live with a host of mental health side effects.

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  85. @Seamus
    Roissy (or to give his blog its current name, Heartiste) has gone so white nationalist that I find myself wondering whether it's actually the same guy writing the blog.

    IIRC, Roissy's secret identity was revealed a few years ago by a pissed-off female blogger who identified him as an employee of FINRA. I don't remember the name, but I recall that it was one that's often considered a "Jewish name." The current author of Heartiste, on the other hand, is not only a white nationalist but also seems to have antisemitic tendencies, which is another reason I wonder if there hasn't been a change in personnel. (I'm obviously assuming that (1) Jews are white, and (2) it's possible to be a white nationalist or a "race realist" without being an anti-Semite.) For all I know, Roissy/Heartiste may be the new Dread Pirate Roberts (minus the drug dealing).

    To be fair, DPR didn’t deal any drugs himself.

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  86. Roissy’s original writings are a fascinating compendium to read when you’re at a certain point in your life and want to look back and understand why you got girl A but not girl B.

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  87. @27 year old
    It was a very entertaining novel. My takeaway was "I bet Neil Strauss wishes he had written this book before he wrote his books on Jenna Jameson and Motley Crüe".

    And also, the book highlighted that a lot of dudes get into PUA because they have serious personality issues, and many of them learn to program around their issues to get women, but don't really resolve the underlying issues.

    Also, a while back, somebody who was a character in the book The Game posted on some pictures on a message board of themself hanging out with Mystery and Neil Strauss back when the book was taking place and included some of the "hotties" they were picking up and let's just say the book may have been a little exaggerated in some parts lol

    That’s what I thought of the book – there was definitely some fiction involved. I remember reading one part where the pick-up artists went to Serbia to pick up chicks, and Mystery was able to get out of a sticky situation with some hardened Serbian war vets (Mystery was hitting on one of their women right in front of them, and they did not like that), by doing some cheesy magic trick, claiming to be a wizard, and threatening to cast a harmful spell on them if they didn’t back down. So the soldiers backed down.

    The author, Neil Strauss, is a contributing editor at Rolling Stone. Regular iSteve readers know exactly how much they value strict adherence to the truth at that magazine.

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  88. @Steve Sailer
    She recently had her husband's baby and she's not a social x-ray at present.

    Tom Wolfe, who was not uneducated in the classics, argued that matrons shouldn't be expected by their culture to be as slender as virgins.

    But that seems to have been been forgotten.

    that’s not just post-baby gain, that’s husband-rejection, bed-death, lifestyle fat

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  89. @Lot
    He is so full of anger and bile that he's unreadable for me. I've tried a few times, a single post does not leave me wanting any more.

    Pot, meet kettle…

    I feel the same about him though. He’s a degenerate sociopath.

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  90. @Daniel H
    If Zuckerberg's brother had learned some game, this man, one of the richest men in the world, maybe wouldn't have ended up married to a peevish, career oriented Chinese (reminiscent of Ellen Pao) who is likely to give him only one child, bossing him around relentlessly.

    Beta is as Beta does.

    “If Zuckerberg’s brother had learned some game, this man, one of the richest men in the world, maybe wouldn’t have ended up married to a peevish, career oriented Chinese (reminiscent of Ellen Pao) who is likely to give him only one child, bossing him around relentlessly.”

    This is what I love most about those acolytes from the manosphere. They make their own subjective criteria as what a “true man” ought to be to make themselves feeelz better.

    “Beta is as Beta does.”

    So how does his alleged “status” directly impact your life? Are you really that concerned about his relationship status, or is just an act?

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    • Replies: @Thursday
    They make their own subjective criteria as what a “true man” ought to be to make themselves feeelz better.

    C'mon you guys, don't be so mean. Zuckerberg prefers that ugly harpy!
    , @ogunsiron

    So how does his alleged “status” directly impact your life
     
    How do comments at Steve Sailer's blog directly, concretely impact your life ?
    Maybe you lose money each time you miss an opportunity to troll on here ?
    That might explain your otherwise mysterious interest in what people here comment on.
  91. @snorlax
    Because men and women are different.

    To a man, an unwanted sexual advance from a woman is at worst annoying. To a woman, an unwanted advance, especially in isolated or unfamiliar surroundings, is often a terrifying experience because there's always [to her] the implicit possibility of being beaten and/or raped if she refuses.

    In simpler terms women pose no physical threat to men, while men pose a very serious physical threat to women.

    One thing feminists and many male anti-feminists have in common is the tendency to selectively play dumb about the differences between the sexes.

    “To a woman, an unwanted advance, especially in isolated or unfamiliar surroundings, is often a terrifying experience because there’s always [to her] the implicit possibility of being beaten and/or raped if she refuses.”

    For ONLY those woman who think in this manner. You make the assumption that it is more often than not women will experience panic and their mace can out because a guy made a “romantic overture”.

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    • Replies: @neutral

    So how does his alleged “status” directly impact your life?
     
    Zuckerberg openly supports and funds mass 3rd world immigration into white nations, so not only does he impact my life, he is essentially impacting most societies with his lunacy.
  92. @BenKenobi
    I dunno, I read "The Game" around 2006 (I was 22) and I couldn't put it down. I devoured it in less than 72 hours. It wasn't exactly a manual, it was a story. I never studied or employed actual Game "techniques" -- one didn't need to. But the book was like the Rosetta Stone of women (that simile is used in the book as well).

    I started getting laid about 10x more. Let me pause here to beat you all to the joke:

    ten times zero still equals zero, buddy-ro
     
    With that out of the way, I'd like to say that "Game" in our day and age was simply the masculinity of another era. It's like how our venerable host has written that the reason Mad Men is so popular is that everyone secretly longs for the bad old days when women were women, and men were men.

    “is that everyone secretly longs for the bad old days when women were women, and men were men.”

    Today, men are men and women are women. This nostalgia of the 1950′s is a myth. My two great uncles who served in World War II told my father stories about women “back in the day”. From those conversations, the only thing that changed is that women today are much more open about their sexual intentions. They were just as caddy and bratty, just as mysterious and nurturing then as now.

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    • Replies: @BB753
    Women have always been women. Its just that they knew their place back then and weren't out of control as they are now. And sluts were shamed instead of celebrated.
  93. @Seamus
    Roissy (or to give his blog its current name, Heartiste) has gone so white nationalist that I find myself wondering whether it's actually the same guy writing the blog.

    IIRC, Roissy's secret identity was revealed a few years ago by a pissed-off female blogger who identified him as an employee of FINRA. I don't remember the name, but I recall that it was one that's often considered a "Jewish name." The current author of Heartiste, on the other hand, is not only a white nationalist but also seems to have antisemitic tendencies, which is another reason I wonder if there hasn't been a change in personnel. (I'm obviously assuming that (1) Jews are white, and (2) it's possible to be a white nationalist or a "race realist" without being an anti-Semite.) For all I know, Roissy/Heartiste may be the new Dread Pirate Roberts (minus the drug dealing).

    Roissy (or to give his blog its current name, Heartiste) has gone so white nationalist that I find myself wondering whether it’s actually the same guy writing the blog.

    He was always white nationalist, it’s just that he didn’t write as much about it until about 2010.

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    • Replies: @IHTG
    There are old posts on Roissy about having sex with black women. The current author claims not to have written them.
    , @Karl
    > He was always white nationalist, it’s just that he didn’t write as much about it until about 2010

    TO be a red-pill blogger is to have this problem: there's nothing new under the sun. The facts about women have already been fully fleshed out.

    American "white nationalists" are really very much like Liberal American Jews: lots of virtuous (from their point of view) talk, virtually zero action.
    , @Thea
    No, he wrote posts about 10 years ago stating apartheid & Jim Crow were evil. So either it's a different writer or they've had a chance of heart.
  94. @Corvinus
    "If Zuckerberg’s brother had learned some game, this man, one of the richest men in the world, maybe wouldn’t have ended up married to a peevish, career oriented Chinese (reminiscent of Ellen Pao) who is likely to give him only one child, bossing him around relentlessly."

    This is what I love most about those acolytes from the manosphere. They make their own subjective criteria as what a "true man" ought to be to make themselves feeelz better.

    "Beta is as Beta does."

    So how does his alleged "status" directly impact your life? Are you really that concerned about his relationship status, or is just an act?

    They make their own subjective criteria as what a “true man” ought to be to make themselves feeelz better.

    C’mon you guys, don’t be so mean. Zuckerberg prefers that ugly harpy!

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "C’mon you guys, don’t be so mean. Zuckerberg prefers that ugly harpy!"

    Again, are you THAT concerned about the apparent lack of beauty for his wife? Or are you just seeking to get kudos from the boys club you desperately want to join?

    Praytell, are you married? Do you have at least two (white) children?
  95. @Corvinus
    "is that everyone secretly longs for the bad old days when women were women, and men were men."

    Today, men are men and women are women. This nostalgia of the 1950's is a myth. My two great uncles who served in World War II told my father stories about women "back in the day". From those conversations, the only thing that changed is that women today are much more open about their sexual intentions. They were just as caddy and bratty, just as mysterious and nurturing then as now.

    Women have always been women. Its just that they knew their place back then and weren’t out of control as they are now. And sluts were shamed instead of celebrated.

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Its just that they knew their place back then and weren’t out of control as they are now."

    No, that's what you were taught on reruns of Leave It To Beaver. Women were out of control then and now. It just wasn't publicized.

    "And sluts were shamed instead of celebrated."

    That's the work of white men who promote porn and PUA. Blame and shame them.
  96. @Diversity Heretic
    I haven't read Return of Kings or Roosh' blog for a long time, but I do follow Chateau Heartiste/ Roissy. He can, of course, defend himself, but my read of CH is that his advice on game is to give beta males a "fighting chance" in the dating game. The traditional beta male attraction was his stability and the hazards that women faced in unprotected sex with alpha males who refused to commit (e.g., pregnancy and abandonment). Effective female contraception and economic self-sufficiency have minimized those hazards, so women feel free to have sex with alphas and ignore betas, at least until their sexual market value starts its precipitous decline in their early 30s. "Game" gives a beta male a shot at those women while they are still in their prime--the alpha has "natural game," and little need for CH's advice. I've never detected in CH a dislike for well-socialized women who decline to ride the "alpha cock carousel."

    “He can, of course, defend himself, but my read of CH is that his advice on game is to give beta males a “fighting chance” in the dating game.”

    Except Roissy is in his 40′s, still single, Jewish, and childless.

    “The traditional beta male attraction was his stability and the hazards that women faced in unprotected sex with alpha males who refused to commit (e.g., pregnancy and abandonment).”

    The traditional beta male is actually the alpha male because of his stability. The alpha male is in reality the cad male, one who generates temporary “tingles”.

    “Effective female contraception and economic self-sufficiency have minimized those hazards, so women feel free to have sex with alphas and ignore betas…”

    Women have sex with whom they are attracted to, either when sober or when drunk, with men.

    “at least until their sexual market value starts its precipitous decline in their early 30s.”

    The sexual market value is a mythical creation of Roissy purely designed to minimize men’s own physical decline when they drink too much beer and eat too many carbohydrates.

    “Game” gives a beta male a shot at those women while they are still in their prime–the alpha has “natural game,” and little need for CH’s advice. ”

    That is surprising to me, since the number of self-proclaimed “alphas” on his blog routinely discuss their scores, thanking him for upping their notch count with his philosophy.

    “I’ve never detected in CH a dislike for well-socialized women who decline to ride the “alpha cock carousel.”

    How noble. See, the issue with CH is he offers advice to men to entice women to have sex with them. When women refuse, then he advocates “on to the next to plunder”. When she does finally capitulate, he “pumps and dumps”. The blame is squarely placed on women, rather than men and women, for having sex outside of marriage.

    I thought men being the superior were able to tame their sexual aggressiveness and guide the woman toward courtship, marriage, and having children.

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  97. I think it’s becoming obvious Miz Zuckerberg doesn’t really care about the classics or the Turkish-American-Nazi-Sexist hordes; she just has a weird attention crush on PUA types. She’s trying to play it out in the usual ways feminist types who are afflicted with this illness do, but I think she’s about 5 years too late to the party. Her readership would probably be counted in the dozens if she weren’t concern trolling various alt-right/PUA factions.

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    • Replies: @SFG
    Her readership would probably be counted in the dozens if she weren’t concern trolling various alt-right/PUA factions.

    I think you have hit the nail on the head. It's hard not to have an inferiority complex (especially if you are a feminist and believe women are supposed to achieve things outside the home) when your brother invented Facebook and is now a famous billionaire. So the lady plugs away in obscurity and--here comes a fight with PUAs, one of the designated feminist villains. Piss them off, get attention, get noticed.

    She might even be trying to leverage it into an eventual writing gig--she can write think pieces for Slate or some similar site about feminism and classics.
  98. @Thursday
    They make their own subjective criteria as what a “true man” ought to be to make themselves feeelz better.

    C'mon you guys, don't be so mean. Zuckerberg prefers that ugly harpy!

    “C’mon you guys, don’t be so mean. Zuckerberg prefers that ugly harpy!”

    Again, are you THAT concerned about the apparent lack of beauty for his wife? Or are you just seeking to get kudos from the boys club you desperately want to join?

    Praytell, are you married? Do you have at least two (white) children?

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    • Replies: @Thursday
    Again, are you THAT concerned about the apparent lack of beauty for his wife? Or are you just seeking to get kudos from the boys club you desperately want to join?

    C'mon, you guys, I mean, what kind of man cares about a woman's looks. You must secretly be gay.

    , @Tracy
    Call me a romantic, but anyone who chooses a mate primarily because of looks is stupid, and pushing that phenomenon as the mark of Right Behavior ignores the fact that, often, to one who's in love, the less stereotypically physically attractive things about a person can come to be the things that are most beloved. Norms are norms and always will be. What most people consider beautiful or handsome is rooted in biology and sociological forces. But still, when a guy meets a girl and is hit by the thunderbolt, her not-so-straight teeth can come to be one of the main things that he finds charming about her. A woman in love will find her husband's bald spot endearingly kissable. Doesn't mean that either one goes stupid and doesn't recognize that crooked teeth and bald spots won't win a person modelling contracts, but it is what it is, and love is love.

    All that aside, I really hate the dissing of people because of physical features they can't change. Even when it comes to Hillary -- whom I despise -- and her "cankles." It's bullying, 2nd grade behavior, and I don't like it even if it comes from people I otherwise agree with politically. Our side is supposed to be -- or should be anyway -- better than that crap. Leave the baby tactics to the babies liberals.
  99. @Corvinus
    "C’mon you guys, don’t be so mean. Zuckerberg prefers that ugly harpy!"

    Again, are you THAT concerned about the apparent lack of beauty for his wife? Or are you just seeking to get kudos from the boys club you desperately want to join?

    Praytell, are you married? Do you have at least two (white) children?

    Again, are you THAT concerned about the apparent lack of beauty for his wife? Or are you just seeking to get kudos from the boys club you desperately want to join?

    C’mon, you guys, I mean, what kind of man cares about a woman’s looks. You must secretly be gay.

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "C’mon, you guys, I mean, what kind of man cares about a woman’s looks. You must secretly be gay."

    You are working overtime for that CH merit badge. Of course guys care about the looks of a woman...they are dating and/or married to.

    Again, of what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?
  100. @snorlax
    Because men and women are different.

    To a man, an unwanted sexual advance from a woman is at worst annoying. To a woman, an unwanted advance, especially in isolated or unfamiliar surroundings, is often a terrifying experience because there's always [to her] the implicit possibility of being beaten and/or raped if she refuses.

    In simpler terms women pose no physical threat to men, while men pose a very serious physical threat to women.

    One thing feminists and many male anti-feminists have in common is the tendency to selectively play dumb about the differences between the sexes.

    Donna is complaining about females’ hard wired preference for mating with men who will father a womanising son to spread the mother’s genes far and wide (AKA the sexy son hypothesis).

    . … there are underlying flaws in the concept of seduction as a teachable skill

    True, getting a girl is like looking for work, it’s tough at the entry level or when unemployed; you need a job to get a job. Women want men who already have a woman and thus have a proven ability to get women. It all boils down to making the targeted female think that you must have already seduced an awful lot of women.

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    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Donna is complaining about females’ hard wired preference for mating with men who will father a womanising son to spread the mother’s genes far and wide (AKA the sexy son hypothesis)."

    I never heard of this hypothesis. Is this something you completely made up or is there research on this phenomenon? Please enlighten us.
  101. @Thursday
    Again, are you THAT concerned about the apparent lack of beauty for his wife? Or are you just seeking to get kudos from the boys club you desperately want to join?

    C'mon, you guys, I mean, what kind of man cares about a woman's looks. You must secretly be gay.

    “C’mon, you guys, I mean, what kind of man cares about a woman’s looks. You must secretly be gay.”

    You are working overtime for that CH merit badge. Of course guys care about the looks of a woman…they are dating and/or married to.

    Again, of what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?

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    • Replies: @Thursday
    Again, of what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?

    C'mon man, you really are gay. Just admit it.
    , @whorefinder

    what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?
     
    Such projection. Now we all know your woman is ugly as sin, and you are in desperate denial about it. What, did you marry her for her personality?
    , @Negrolphin Pool
    A black crow with no care for universal truth. Huh.
  102. @Corvinus
    "To a woman, an unwanted advance, especially in isolated or unfamiliar surroundings, is often a terrifying experience because there’s always [to her] the implicit possibility of being beaten and/or raped if she refuses."

    For ONLY those woman who think in this manner. You make the assumption that it is more often than not women will experience panic and their mace can out because a guy made a "romantic overture".

    So how does his alleged “status” directly impact your life?

    Zuckerberg openly supports and funds mass 3rd world immigration into white nations, so not only does he impact my life, he is essentially impacting most societies with his lunacy.

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  103. @wren
    Roissy is discussing "Cuckersperg" right now.

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2016/12/22/fact-checking-snopes/

    How do you know that the escort and the bride are the same woman? They look a little bit alike, so they might be the same; but I’m not quite convinced.

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    • Replies: @wren
    You need to spread that all over the web (as she seems to) and let Snopes debunk it.
  104. @Corvinus
    "C’mon, you guys, I mean, what kind of man cares about a woman’s looks. You must secretly be gay."

    You are working overtime for that CH merit badge. Of course guys care about the looks of a woman...they are dating and/or married to.

    Again, of what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?

    Again, of what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?

    C’mon man, you really are gay. Just admit it.

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    • Replies: @whorefinder
    Naw, old Corvy's just a paid troll. I'm guessing Media Matters or DNC. I don't think he's ADL-related, he's not overly hysterical on Tribe-related issues.
    , @Corvinus
    "C’mon man, you really are gay. Just admit it."

    I'm extremely happy. Thanks for asking.

    Again, of what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?
  105. @Mr. Blank
    The main benefit I got from a brief flirtation with the PUA life several years back was learning to dump all my beta-male behaviors. That change alone instantly improved my dating life substantially, and it wasn't even difficult.

    The lesson I learned: Women like men who act like men and aren't ashamed of it, full stop. I wished that somebody had clued me into this very simple truth years earlier, except I realized that someone had: My stodgy old grandparents. Watching old movies really opened my eyes. Most of the "insights" of modern PUAs used to be common knowledge among men, right up until the baby boomers -- my parents' generation -- came along and decided to "fix" things.

    Like everything else the boomers tried to fix, they ended up making it much worse.

    I didn’t discover Roissy’a blog until after I was married, but as he himself has pointed out, having game can help you strengthen your marriage or otherwise monogamous relationship. Having game or simply losing your beta tendencies greatly reduces the chances of your wife cheating on you or treating you like crap.

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "I didn’t discover Roissy’a blog until after I was married, but as he himself has pointed out, having game can help you strengthen your marriage or otherwise monogamous relationship. Having game or simply losing your beta tendencies greatly reduces the chances of your wife cheating on you or treating you like crap."

    Except those lurking on his blog tend to be married men looking for side action. Moreover, "beta tendencies" is another worthless meme. What a man individually thinks is "alpha" behavior, another man labels it as "beta" or "gamma". And wives cheat for a host of reasons, not squarely because they believe their husbands act other than "alpha".
  106. “Game” is good as a tool to use as part of a well rounded life, necessary for many men to find happiness, as long as it is used in the service of finding a long-term partner. To manipulate women into sleeping with you in order to leave them damaged and broken is something no healthy political movement or moral person should encourage.

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  107. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Lot
    He is so full of anger and bile that he's unreadable for me. I've tried a few times, a single post does not leave me wanting any more.

    He used to be pretty decent but his style changed significantly and his content is not as good and original as it used to be. Now he mostly just recycles alt-right and /pol/ style content that he picks up from other sites and social media. The writing has changed so much from the original Roissy that some say it’s a different writer or group of writers from the original. Others say that it’s the same guy but that he changed his writing style and content and cultivated rumors that it’s a different writer after he got doxed.

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  108. Mentioning my brother is sexist.

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Mentioning my brother is sexist."

    I thought it was not possible to be sexist against men according to the Left Wing megaphone. Is she saying her brother Mark is not a real man?
    , @CrunchybutRealistCon
    So consideration that you will have no financial worries for your lifetime or for the lifetime of your children, even grandchildren is off limits? Sexist? Might it not help explain why high earning, credentialed women get frustrated by their scarcity of mate options? Did resource acquisition or other practical matters never factor into female mate selection in the modern world ?
  109. @Corvinus
    "If Zuckerberg’s brother had learned some game, this man, one of the richest men in the world, maybe wouldn’t have ended up married to a peevish, career oriented Chinese (reminiscent of Ellen Pao) who is likely to give him only one child, bossing him around relentlessly."

    This is what I love most about those acolytes from the manosphere. They make their own subjective criteria as what a "true man" ought to be to make themselves feeelz better.

    "Beta is as Beta does."

    So how does his alleged "status" directly impact your life? Are you really that concerned about his relationship status, or is just an act?

    So how does his alleged “status” directly impact your life

    How do comments at Steve Sailer’s blog directly, concretely impact your life ?
    Maybe you lose money each time you miss an opportunity to troll on here ?
    That might explain your otherwise mysterious interest in what people here comment on.

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "How do comments at Steve Sailer’s blog directly, concretely impact your life?"

    Nice try.

    "Maybe you lose money each time you miss an opportunity to troll on here?"

    First, I comment here daily, so I'm not "trolling". Second, I'm independently wealthy.

    "That might explain your otherwise mysterious interest in what people here comment on."

    I'm interested in people's opinions. There's no mystery. But we appreciate your virtue signalling.
  110. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Lot
    He is so full of anger and bile that he's unreadable for me. I've tried a few times, a single post does not leave me wanting any more.

    He basically ran out of things to say and is more of a political blog now. That’s not a knock on him – he blogged on the PUA stuff so much early on, and the whole PUA thing got saturated and went somewhat mainstream, that he ran out of new PUA material to blog about.

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  111. Do any men, or women, here suppose that “Game” has any applicability to being married and staying married?

    Does being married relieve a man of any need to initiate sexual encounters with his wife? Or is everything supposed to happen just mutually, spontaneously and with affirmative consent, all the time forever after, and if you feel the need to persuade your wife to be “in the mood”, does that make you a brute or a law breaker in the State of California — see http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-men-do-to-ruin-their-own-sex-lives/ for the P.C. take on this.

    Do women stop feeling the need to be courted and pursued — and I mean by their husband — as soon as they exchange vows?

    Do people here suppose that knowledge of “Game” may be necessary at some point for a man to stay married, or at least not to be “played” by a home-wrecking woman? Do you suppose there are circumstances under which a man should objectify women — that babe at work sure seems interested in me and she is looking for every excuse to come by an chat, but thinking about it, she is not nearly half as good looking as my wife and what do I get out of busting up my marriage apart from ending up poor? Are there circumstances under which following one’s heart instead of looking at people, relationships, and life situations from a more utilitarian perspective could result in a bad moral outcome?

    Do men reading Popular Mechanics repair their car every time it needs maintenance, fill the house with custom bookshelves, and build their kids all their backyard playground equipment? Do women reading Martha Stewart Living ever entertain guests on that scale. Or maybe a man gets the idea how to drive a nail to tack down a loose board and a woman gets an idea for a fancy recipe for some special occasion?

    I haven’t spent time reading the PUA blogs, but does everyone lurking at those sites chase after every woman who bats an eyelash at them? Or maybe some shy guy gets confidence to “say hello” to some woman he really likes and with whom seeks a serious relationship?

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    • Replies: @Tracy
    I'm a woman and I read Chateau Heartiste pretty frequently, thinking his site serves a good purpose -- along with some bad ones.

    I think men, married or not, could definitely benefit from "game" in order to counteract the social forces that have at least tried to beat the masculinity out of them. Roissy helps get men to reclaim their balls, and that's nothing but good. He also teaches them how to understand how most women think, how they relate what they're thinking through body language, and how to respond to it all in a way that keeps them interested. All good.

    I wish, though, that he weren't pushing hedonism. I'm Catholic, so -- ya know, I believe that sex should stay inside marriage, etc., you know the drill. Teaching men how to "game" women just so they can bed them isn't a decent goal. In fact, it's one that leads to more of what we've got: a civilization that's falling apart, fatherless children, etc. I've often wished there were a "Christian game" site -- one that's set up to help "re-masculinize" men so they can build strong marriages. But I reckon that until marriage/divorce/custody laws change, marriage will remain a sucker's bet for guys (maybe pre-nups can help with all that?).

    I also lament how he seems to put the onus for everything sexual on the female. I understand why the sexual double standard exists. It makes sociological and biological sense. But on a moral level, men shouldn't be, to paraphrase Roissy, "riding the cunt carousel" any more than women should be riding the "cock" one. And it is men who, more often than not, initiate sex -- and it's a lot easier to say no to initiating sex than it is to say no when some guy is kissing all over your neck and grabbing your breast. So maybe there should be a double standard as well about initiating sex with someone you're not married to, with men having more of a burden. Maybe the word "cad" and the idea of "seduction" in the old-school sense need a comeback.

    There also needs to be a "game" site for women, too, a site that teaches women about what men are like, how to please them, etc. IOW, a site that helps "re-feminize" women without being prudish and silly. It takes two to tango, and way too many Western women are unmarriageable.
    , @Hanoi Paris Hilton
    I've been together with my second wife for nearly thirty years, following an insanely hot romance and a maximally exotic marriage. The sex is at minimum pretty good, no viagra required so far, and is still sometimes very good indeed. Before I met her, I had literally scores of hetero affairs, some while I was still living with my first wife. Plenty of action, no satisfaction. I also stay in touch with a handful of former lovers and notably, several other women whom I've always found attractive but with whom I was either friend-zoned (incel city!) or had good reason not to pursue sexually.

    (I've gotten closer and closer to my first wife as well, with whom the sex was usually catastrophic: largely because of my cluelessness. She has good reason to detest me, but doesn't.)

    In every case they were/are women whom I knew before meeting my wife. We have a grown daughter, with whom we're both very close. We also work together professionally, as well as on our individual projects which typically entail living at least three months apart every year, sometimes on different continents. My travel and research tends to be in developing countries with a surfeit of drop-dead beautiful young women looking for an escape route out.

    Since our marriage, two years after our initial encounter, I have never even half-seriously come onto any other woman sexually, even though —to my amazement, now well into my 70s— women look better and better and more immediately emotionally transportive than ever before. I've been following Heartiste for at least five years and in retrospect I can see where —back in the old days— I was — sequentially— a beta hoverer, an alpha jerkboy, a borderline sociopath. I also really get how the dynamics of our own marriage follows the astonishing, hard-wired differences between men and women.

    On more than one occasion, when things were very dicey within our marriage, and not because I was stepping out or losing sexual or emotional interest (my wife comes from a country where "women of a certain age" know how to look good and remain alluring), I looked to Game as the key of where to take things. It always worked like a charm.

    Roissy's thing about the Joooos, which is becoming ever more dominant in his writings, is increasingly a turn off. But as with our host, I'm flabbergasted by how the famously-smart Jooos (I'm a semi-observant Ashkenazi myself) are so utterly out to lunch about how driven liberal/progressive tikkunistas are to undermine host cultures and not even realizing how large "choose the form of your destructors" figures amongst them/us. For her part, my wife was convent educated from a very traditional Catho background, but all she knew about Jooos was what she gleaned out of Woody Allen films... and I noticed when seeing them in a movie house with her co-nationals, they usually laughed at the wrong places. She knows more now.

  112. @snorlax
    Because men and women are different.

    To a man, an unwanted sexual advance from a woman is at worst annoying. To a woman, an unwanted advance, especially in isolated or unfamiliar surroundings, is often a terrifying experience because there's always [to her] the implicit possibility of being beaten and/or raped if she refuses.

    In simpler terms women pose no physical threat to men, while men pose a very serious physical threat to women.

    One thing feminists and many male anti-feminists have in common is the tendency to selectively play dumb about the differences between the sexes.

    To a woman, an unwanted advance, especially in isolated or unfamiliar surroundings, is often a terrifying experience because there’s always [to her] the implicit possibility of being beaten and/or raped if she refuses.

    You think it’s reasonable for an average swipple female to be afraid of getting raped and killed by a fellow swipple male if she refuses his advances ? It doesn’t seem very reasonable to me. I get it that we have instincts but we’re called to reign in our instincts sometimes. It is possible for some women to have a fear of men that is not reasonable and one should be able to criticize that unreasonableness.

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  113. @Anonym
    The biggest problem with PU Artistry is that one can end up marrying the best/hottest woman he has been able to score with, rather than the best woman he might marry if he were to court her with patience and careful persistence (the game of appearing ambivalent and non-stalker like, while still pursuing your quarry with dogged dedication).

    Practice at game is useful to not seem like an inexperienced sperg in the game of courtship, when it counts. However, it's easy to become sidetracked by the T&A so that one never takes the time to consider what one wants in a wife and what one can achieve in a wife, and pursue that resourcefully and patiently.

    I don't think anyone is perfect. It's a bit like trying to take a good group photo - the odds of everyone looking acceptable are the odds of each individual looking acceptable to the power of the number of people (or multiplied together if you are being anal about people who are better at taking photos than others). Similarly, the more things you have on your list describing the perfect woman, the odds of finding that are approximately the odds of attaining each desirable quality in a random woman, multiplied together. As a practical matter it comes down to compromises for anything but a trivial list.

    PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females.

    The problem was that the hippie-commune selling point of “free love”—hey, everyone’s gonna get laid equally—turned into the reality of hypergamy. Women, freed of the constraints of marrying the one man in her bracket and being faithful to him, flocked to sex up the top 20% of men around. The bottom 80% of men were left punching the clowns.

    PUA has taught part of that 80% how to look and act like the top 20% and get women to sleep with them. Women have gotten mad at PUAs because they want to sleep with actual top-20% of men, not one of the 80% doing a good impression. That’s the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement.

    Most PUAs would love a return to the chaste-monogomous-marriage-comitted women of the 1950s halycon vision, but, bitterly, have accepted that finding a good virginal coquettish woman is impossible. So they’ve resorted to getting what little pleasure can be had from the situation, by aping clownish behavior to get a woman to lie with them. A few hours of sex beats none at all.

    MGTOW is a similar rational response by men, except these men eschew bothering with women even to get laid. PUA techniques is just wasted effort to them, since women are so hostile. Better to be alone that risk getting fooled by a woman into a sexless relationship with a shrew.

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Women have gotten mad at PUAs because they want to sleep with actual top-20% of men, not one of the 80% doing a good impression. That’s the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement."

    Female hatred for PUA comes entirely from the Left. Women who are apolitical and Right Wing women are not losing any sleep at night over PUA guys getting laid. And even on the Left it's mostly SWPL women who hate PUA guys. NAM women are extremely turned on by PUA game.

    , @CrunchybutRealistCon
    Seems on point. For many, learning PUA is more a way to get a Psychology 101 course with a focus on female attraction in an age unshackled from 50s social norms. What eludes many is that a lot of conservative minded men coming of age after 1990 were fatally ignorant that feminism had tipped the scales in terms of mate selection criteria. If one was vaguely chivalrous or an old world gentleman, it could be disastrous relative to expectations. Women don't need providers anymore, inasmuch as they want a combo of the snarling, overtly masculine Jimmy Dean/Marlon Brando archetype and someone charismatic to entertain them . If you also have a good income, smarts and other hobbies, that is fine, but keep those in reserve. They aren't calling cards of importance like they might have been in 1970. And gentlemanly habits are to be withheld as rare garnishes. Nowadays gentlemanly behavior is simply construed as needy approval seeking.
    , @Corvinus
    "PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females."

    Men and women have been sleeping around before and during marriage for centuries. The sexual revolution of the 1960's only brought this phenomenon to the forefront.

    "Women, freed of the constraints of marrying the one man in her bracket and being faithful to him, flocked to sex up the top 20% of men around. The bottom 80% of men were left punching the clowns."

    So man up. Read self-help books like Gorilla Mindset and become part of the 20%. Although, I would like to know how how accurate is this 80-20 statistic. What sources prove it?

    "That’s the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement."

    No, the enmity stems from PUA's who teach men to "pump and dump" rather than be the protectors of Western Civilization.

    "Most PUAs would love a return to the chaste-monogomous-marriage-comitted women of the 1950s halycon vision..."

    Which is an absolute myth.

    " but, bitterly, have accepted that finding a good virginal coquettish woman is impossible. So they’ve resorted to getting what little pleasure can be had from the situation, by aping clownish behavior to get a woman to lie with them. A few hours of sex beats none at all."

    Not for the Christian male. Only sex during marriage. But what about yourself, Whorefinder? Why do you pay for sex and seek the comforts of slutty women? Are we suppose to believe that you desire to marry a hot virgin and have sire your own litter of white offspring, rather than troll for trim at your local watering hole?

    "MGTOW is a similar rational response by men, except these men eschew bothering with women even to get laid. PUA techniques is just wasted effort to them, since women are so hostile. Better to be alone that risk getting fooled by a woman into a sexless relationship with a shrew."

    Weaksauce. Buy Gorilla Mindset. Change your life.
    , @Anonym
    PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females.

    I think to some extent you are right. If no female is going to give it up prior to marriage, then there is not a lot of point of game, really, as far as obtaining sex.

    The problem was that the hippie-commune selling point of “free love”—hey, everyone’s gonna get laid equally—turned into the reality of hypergamy. Women, freed of the constraints of marrying the one man in her bracket and being faithful to him, flocked to sex up the top 20% of men around. The bottom 80% of men were left punching the clowns.

    Irrespective of the actual percentages, there is some truth to this. I guess every time I was going clubbing in my youth, prior to marriage I was depriving someone else of finding a mate as I sorted through the options. I am not sure exactly what would have happened 100 years before that, but I doubt that the courting process would have been instantaneous. I still would have sucked the attention from some other guy while I was at the local dance or whatever. Instead of sex there might have been some heavy petting. Condoms have been around since the 1850s btw. Celebrities were getting laid before the 1960s.

    PUA has taught part of that 80% how to look and act like the top 20% and get women to sleep with them. Women have gotten mad at PUAs because they want to sleep with actual top-20% of men, not one of the 80% doing a good impression. That’s the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement.

    Both sides have long been trying to make silk purses out of sow's ears for a long, long time. Hair dye, wigs, cosmetics, corsets, fancy clothes... this wasn't invented recently. And PUA has basically just been a sort of codified DIY version of what men have mostly learned on their own and by observation for a long, long time.

    I think women have gotten mad at PUA because they want to find someone who is earnestly looking to settle down, not someone who has studied how to press buttons of women to fairly reliably get laid without paying for it (other than say the hour preparing to go out, the travel time and fuel cost to get there, maybe to someone's house, and then get home, the cost of the drinks and entry fees, the food out, and the value of their own time which is probably 4-8 hours) instead of visiting a prostitute... and has no intention whatsoever of entertaining the idea of marriage to her.

    Keep having children until you get a daughter. It'll change your thinking. They have biological clocks, they have a finite window of attractiveness, and they have urges to have children (which practically requires a providing and protecting partner). Just having sex with a user is kind of empty for them.

    Most PUAs would love a return to the chaste-monogomous-marriage-comitted women of the 1950s halycon vision, but, bitterly, have accepted that finding a good virginal coquettish woman is impossible. So they’ve resorted to getting what little pleasure can be had from the situation, by aping clownish behavior to get a woman to lie with them. A few hours of sex beats none at all.

    Maybe so for a few. For quite a few others, they enjoy the game, the sex, the conversation, the look and feel of a never-before-sampled female body as the clothes come off, and the multiple little wins along the way.

    MGTOW is a similar rational response by men, except these men eschew bothering with women even to get laid. PUA techniques is just wasted effort to them, since women are so hostile. Better to be alone that risk getting fooled by a woman into a sexless relationship with a shrew.

    Rejection sucks, but at the end of the day giving yourself zero chance instead of 5% is just a cop out. Even if your chances are only 5%, you only have to try 20 times on average.

    , @Jefferson
    "PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females."

    So before the 1960s the vast majority of women who had never been married were virgins?
  114. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Seamus
    Roissy (or to give his blog its current name, Heartiste) has gone so white nationalist that I find myself wondering whether it's actually the same guy writing the blog.

    IIRC, Roissy's secret identity was revealed a few years ago by a pissed-off female blogger who identified him as an employee of FINRA. I don't remember the name, but I recall that it was one that's often considered a "Jewish name." The current author of Heartiste, on the other hand, is not only a white nationalist but also seems to have antisemitic tendencies, which is another reason I wonder if there hasn't been a change in personnel. (I'm obviously assuming that (1) Jews are white, and (2) it's possible to be a white nationalist or a "race realist" without being an anti-Semite.) For all I know, Roissy/Heartiste may be the new Dread Pirate Roberts (minus the drug dealing).

    It was a German surname that’s not typically Jewish, but one that some people assumed was Jewish simply because it’s German.

    As for whether he’s an anti-Semite or not, I don’t recall him directly espousing anti-Semitism, but he does frequently indirectly promote anti-Semitic talking points, memes, writers, etc. from the alt-right sphere.

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  115. @Corvinus
    "C’mon, you guys, I mean, what kind of man cares about a woman’s looks. You must secretly be gay."

    You are working overtime for that CH merit badge. Of course guys care about the looks of a woman...they are dating and/or married to.

    Again, of what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?

    what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?

    Such projection. Now we all know your woman is ugly as sin, and you are in desperate denial about it. What, did you marry her for her personality?

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  116. @Thursday
    Again, of what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?

    C'mon man, you really are gay. Just admit it.

    Naw, old Corvy’s just a paid troll. I’m guessing Media Matters or DNC. I don’t think he’s ADL-related, he’s not overly hysterical on Tribe-related issues.

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  117. @Thursday
    https://twitter.com/donnazuck/status/805106304792395776

    Mentioning my brother is sexist.

    “Mentioning my brother is sexist.”

    I thought it was not possible to be sexist against men according to the Left Wing megaphone. Is she saying her brother Mark is not a real man?

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  118. @ogunsiron

    So how does his alleged “status” directly impact your life
     
    How do comments at Steve Sailer's blog directly, concretely impact your life ?
    Maybe you lose money each time you miss an opportunity to troll on here ?
    That might explain your otherwise mysterious interest in what people here comment on.

    “How do comments at Steve Sailer’s blog directly, concretely impact your life?”

    Nice try.

    “Maybe you lose money each time you miss an opportunity to troll on here?”

    First, I comment here daily, so I’m not “trolling”. Second, I’m independently wealthy.

    “That might explain your otherwise mysterious interest in what people here comment on.”

    I’m interested in people’s opinions. There’s no mystery. But we appreciate your virtue signalling.

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  119. @Thursday
    Again, of what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?

    C'mon man, you really are gay. Just admit it.

    “C’mon man, you really are gay. Just admit it.”

    I’m extremely happy. Thanks for asking.

    Again, of what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?

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    • Replies: @Thursday
    Again, of what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?

    "FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAG!"
  120. @Matra
    Roissy (or to give his blog its current name, Heartiste) has gone so white nationalist that I find myself wondering whether it’s actually the same guy writing the blog.

    He was always white nationalist, it's just that he didn't write as much about it until about 2010.

    There are old posts on Roissy about having sex with black women. The current author claims not to have written them.

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  121. @whorefinder
    PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females.

    The problem was that the hippie-commune selling point of "free love"---hey, everyone's gonna get laid equally---turned into the reality of hypergamy. Women, freed of the constraints of marrying the one man in her bracket and being faithful to him, flocked to sex up the top 20% of men around. The bottom 80% of men were left punching the clowns.

    PUA has taught part of that 80% how to look and act like the top 20% and get women to sleep with them. Women have gotten mad at PUAs because they want to sleep with actual top-20% of men, not one of the 80% doing a good impression. That's the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement.

    Most PUAs would love a return to the chaste-monogomous-marriage-comitted women of the 1950s halycon vision, but, bitterly, have accepted that finding a good virginal coquettish woman is impossible. So they've resorted to getting what little pleasure can be had from the situation, by aping clownish behavior to get a woman to lie with them. A few hours of sex beats none at all.

    MGTOW is a similar rational response by men, except these men eschew bothering with women even to get laid. PUA techniques is just wasted effort to them, since women are so hostile. Better to be alone that risk getting fooled by a woman into a sexless relationship with a shrew.

    “Women have gotten mad at PUAs because they want to sleep with actual top-20% of men, not one of the 80% doing a good impression. That’s the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement.”

    Female hatred for PUA comes entirely from the Left. Women who are apolitical and Right Wing women are not losing any sleep at night over PUA guys getting laid. And even on the Left it’s mostly SWPL women who hate PUA guys. NAM women are extremely turned on by PUA game.

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    • Replies: @whorefinder

    emale hatred for PUA comes entirely from the Left. Women who are apolitical and Right Wing women are not losing any sleep at night over PUA guys getting laid. And even on the Left it’s mostly SWPL women who hate PUA guys. NAM women are extremely turned on by PUA game.
     
    Nah, right wing "good girls" get upset at the PUAs as well, for the exactly the same reasons. And NAM get upset as well. This isn't a SWPL/(((white person))) limited hatred. Women don't like the fact that men have learned some manipulation techniques in the sex game, as previously women were the sole holders of a universal right to manipulate men.

    And the media's demonizing/lying about PUAs (especially the assault on Roosh) has furthered women into hating them.
    , @JSM
    Women who are apolitical and Right Wing women are not losing any sleep at night over PUA guys getting laid.

    I am. Because PUA is anti-White, and even more so, anti-White-Men.

    Hear me out:

    Children, to be reared into capable, mentally stable, productive, happy adults need to grow up being reared by their two bioparents, married to each other and living in the same house.
    It's best if the parents love each other, but if they are at least mature enough to be *nice* to each other, kids do better than ones from broken homes. For kids, Divorce is a Fucking Disaster.

    White children, particularly, because Ice People are k-strategists, need that solid, nuclear family arrangement. As bad as White girls have it when raised by single mothers, White boys do utterly *terrible* without a dad in the house. I'm not telling you guys anything you don't already know.

    PUAs aren't in it, by and large, to get married. They're in it for casual sex. Well, aside from the broken hearts it creates, promiscuity spreads disease, and a particularly insidious and common disease it spreads is chlamydia.

    For women, chlamydia is the Silent Fertility Killer. It scars the Fallopian tubes, usually without symptoms. The PUA is the chlamydia germ's best friend.

    So, even if our foolish damsel who got bedded by a diseased PUA later straightens up and decides to wed a Beta, she often finds she can't get pregnant because of that chlamydia she picked up five years ago, from her one-night-stand with that pump-n-dumper, that she never even knew about.

    And, even IF fertility treatments succeed, the simple truth is, people with histories of promiscuity are statistically more likely to get divorced, and that means our little In-Vitro Angel is going to endure the Fucking Disaster of Divorce.

    Hence: fewer White kids get conceived (due to PUA promiscuity-spreading chlamydia-induced infertility) and fewer White kids get reared well (due to PUA promiscuity-induced inability to properly pair-bond = divorce.)

    What could be more anti-White, and anti White Men, than White men, before they even were grown men, not getting conceived in the first place, or reared well in the second place?

  122. @Hapalong Cassidy
    I didn't discover Roissy'a blog until after I was married, but as he himself has pointed out, having game can help you strengthen your marriage or otherwise monogamous relationship. Having game or simply losing your beta tendencies greatly reduces the chances of your wife cheating on you or treating you like crap.

    “I didn’t discover Roissy’a blog until after I was married, but as he himself has pointed out, having game can help you strengthen your marriage or otherwise monogamous relationship. Having game or simply losing your beta tendencies greatly reduces the chances of your wife cheating on you or treating you like crap.”

    Except those lurking on his blog tend to be married men looking for side action. Moreover, “beta tendencies” is another worthless meme. What a man individually thinks is “alpha” behavior, another man labels it as “beta” or “gamma”. And wives cheat for a host of reasons, not squarely because they believe their husbands act other than “alpha”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @whorefinder

    Except those lurking on his blog tend to be married men looking for side action
     
    .

    lol. A typical, obvious lie by Cucky Corvy. You have to do better, son!


    Moreover, “beta tendencies” is another worthless meme. What a man individually thinks is “alpha” behavior, another man labels it as “beta” or “gamma”. And wives cheat for a host of reasons, not squarely because they believe their husbands act other than “alpha”.
     
    The denials of a paid-shill cuck like Corvy so reek of pain and misery you'd have to have a heart of stone not to laugh at him.
  123. @Corvinus
    "C’mon man, you really are gay. Just admit it."

    I'm extremely happy. Thanks for asking.

    Again, of what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?

    Again, of what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?

    “FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAG!”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    Fag is from the mid-sixteenth century, a verb in the sense of 'grow weary'. So, you're right. I have grown weary of your juvenile antics.
  124. @Not Raul
    How do you know that the escort and the bride are the same woman? They look a little bit alike, so they might be the same; but I'm not quite convinced.

    You need to spread that all over the web (as she seems to) and let Snopes debunk it.

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  125. The writing has changed so much from the original Roissy that some say it’s a different writer or group of writers from the original.

    That’s the issue.

    Read More
  126. @Matra
    Roissy (or to give his blog its current name, Heartiste) has gone so white nationalist that I find myself wondering whether it’s actually the same guy writing the blog.

    He was always white nationalist, it's just that he didn't write as much about it until about 2010.

    > He was always white nationalist, it’s just that he didn’t write as much about it until about 2010

    TO be a red-pill blogger is to have this problem: there’s nothing new under the sun. The facts about women have already been fully fleshed out.

    American “white nationalists” are really very much like Liberal American Jews: lots of virtuous (from their point of view) talk, virtually zero action.

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  127. @CK
    If one likes easy women then one goes where the easy women are. Bars are the natural habitat of the schtuppable so that is where one goes.
    The problem with the "easy women" is that they want to overstay their welcome. That is the virtue of the professional. They are paid to not be there in the morning.
    http://freakonomics.com/2009/02/06/i-pay-them-to-leave/

    “If one likes easy women then one goes where the easy women are.”

    Colin Quinn once said the easiest women in New York City are Puerto Rican women. He joked that most of them start having sex as early as middle school.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CK
    The median age of menarche in the USA is 12.43 years, add .75 years and you have the earliest median age of childbirth. 13 years 2 months.
    Average age for menopause is 51 years.
    A woman drops on average 13 eggs a year or 520 0ver a lifetime
    Middle school is, by definition, 6th to 8th grade, 11 to 13 years.
    Possibly it would behoove the USA to accept that children screw at very early ages and
    that giving them a 5 year free plan of Mirena or a 5 year subcutaneous implant of the latest
    Depo-Provera would be a " good thing ©".
    http://www.mirena-us.com/index.php
    http://www.webmd.com/sex/birth-control/birth-control-depo-provera#1

    Being replaced is a function of how long a familial generation is and how fecund a woman is/
    A child at 13, a grandchild at 27 a great grandchild at 41.
    It takes two children to replace a functioning family, it takes one to replace a woman wedded to a monthly government check.
    In theory it takes 2.1 children to replace a family because while more males are born, more males die young. By puberty the odds are as close to 50/50 as one can get.
  128. @Corvinus
    "C’mon you guys, don’t be so mean. Zuckerberg prefers that ugly harpy!"

    Again, are you THAT concerned about the apparent lack of beauty for his wife? Or are you just seeking to get kudos from the boys club you desperately want to join?

    Praytell, are you married? Do you have at least two (white) children?

    Call me a romantic, but anyone who chooses a mate primarily because of looks is stupid, and pushing that phenomenon as the mark of Right Behavior ignores the fact that, often, to one who’s in love, the less stereotypically physically attractive things about a person can come to be the things that are most beloved. Norms are norms and always will be. What most people consider beautiful or handsome is rooted in biology and sociological forces. But still, when a guy meets a girl and is hit by the thunderbolt, her not-so-straight teeth can come to be one of the main things that he finds charming about her. A woman in love will find her husband’s bald spot endearingly kissable. Doesn’t mean that either one goes stupid and doesn’t recognize that crooked teeth and bald spots won’t win a person modelling contracts, but it is what it is, and love is love.

    All that aside, I really hate the dissing of people because of physical features they can’t change. Even when it comes to Hillary — whom I despise – and her “cankles.” It’s bullying, 2nd grade behavior, and I don’t like it even if it comes from people I otherwise agree with politically. Our side is supposed to be — or should be anyway — better than that crap. Leave the baby tactics to the babies liberals.

    Read More
    • Agree: Whoever
    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Doesn’t mean that either one goes stupid and doesn’t recognize that crooked teeth and bald spots won’t win a person modelling contracts, but it is what it is, and love is love.

    I do not know that men experience the "falling in love" that women experience.
    , @Anonymous
    Sailer's law of female blog post commenting?
    , @Negrolphin Pool

    But still, when a guy meets a girl and is hit by the thunderbolt, her not-so-straight teeth can come to be one of the main things that he finds charming about her.
     
    I think that can be filed in the loose drawer labeled "fetishization".
  129. @snorlax
    Because men and women are different.

    To a man, an unwanted sexual advance from a woman is at worst annoying. To a woman, an unwanted advance, especially in isolated or unfamiliar surroundings, is often a terrifying experience because there's always [to her] the implicit possibility of being beaten and/or raped if she refuses.

    In simpler terms women pose no physical threat to men, while men pose a very serious physical threat to women.

    One thing feminists and many male anti-feminists have in common is the tendency to selectively play dumb about the differences between the sexes.

    “In simpler terms women pose no physical threat to men, while men pose a very serious physical threat to women.”

    According to Hollywood, women pose an extreme physical threat to men. Hence why Jennifer Aniston for example can single-handedly beat up 2 Russian gangsters with her bare hands in the film Office Christmas Party.

    “To a man, an unwanted sexual advance from a woman is at worst annoying. To a woman, an unwanted advance, especially in isolated or unfamiliar surroundings, is often a terrifying experience because there’s always [to her] the implicit possibility of being beaten and/or raped if she refuses.”

    A woman who automatically assumes any guy who approaches her wants to rape her, beat her, or murder her must live in an extremely vibrantly diverse part of The U.S. After all there have been studies have shown vibrant diversity causes more distrust of strangers. These women who believe every man is a potential OJ Simpson in the making definitely does not live in a Whitopia.

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    • Replies: @Diversity Heretic
    The reason why an unwanted approach poses a threat to a woman is mostly in her self-image: "How could that loser think that I would be interested in him?"
  130. @Mark G.
    A lot of what are now called beta male behaviors actually worked in the days of our stodgy old grandparents. A primary female goal was to find an economic provider and marry him. Men would act a certain way to show they could fill this role. The increase of the welfare state removed the need for women to do this. This includes not just the obvious forms of welfare like income transfers but also lots of indirect forms like government enforced affirmative action which enables women to get higher paying jobs that they could never get just based on their qualifications. Women were now able to pick romantic partners based on looks or personality while having the beta males toil and pay the taxes to support the welfare state and toil in business situations where they were doing more work while being passed over for promotions that were given to less qualified and less hard working females. Eventually, though, beta males figured out that they were getting screwed and rebelled. The PUA lifestyle is just one form of this rebellion. There are multiple other forms like men dropping the pursuit of getting married or even pursuing women at all and pursuit of careers that would support a wife and family. This can be seen in the collapsing marriage rates and men leaving the work force. This is starting to cause an economic decline as we undergo a shift from men working jobs and women marrying the men who are working to men not working and paying taxes at the same time more women come to depend on the welfare state that doesn't have the tax receipts coming in to pay for it. This is a situation that can't and won't last long term. The alpha male strategies as presented by PUA advocates work in the current situation but men will need to shift back to more of a provider role which may entail more beta behaviors and women will need to accept that they can't avoid marriage and sleep with the alpha males because beta males need to be given a reason to work and the primary reason for that has always been to support a wife and children.

    Yep. This is the root cause of all systemic failures, whether in sports, culture, business, government, religion, relations between the sexes, whatever:

    A generation comes along and decides that they can safely quit emphasizing fundamentals, because they believe the fundamentals are so dead obvious that people will just naturally absorb them, without any outside reinforcement. Instead, they decide to invest heavily in marginal improvements at the bleeding edge.

    At first, this new approach provides substantial gains, because this first generation is already steeped in the fundamentals, so their experiments are fruitful and productive.

    Then along comes a new generation that never learns the fundamentals. What had seemed obvious to their elders is not obvious to them, because nobody ever sits them down and explains the rules. This generation launches immediately into the bleeding-edge stuff, but makes a mess of everything because they have no idea what the hell they are doing. They’re just blindly flailing away, with no rhyme or reason.

    This is the point we’re at now in the West. We’ve got a generation that can’t even grasp something as basic as male and female biology, for crying out loud.

    Next comes a generation that painfully relearns all the fundamentals. Fearing a return to the Crazy Years, they try to construct a mechanism by which the fundamentals will be inculcated in the coming generations automatically. They try to make the mechanism as idiot-proof as possible, hoping this will prevent future generations from mucking it up. They try to emphasize to the coming generations how important this all is, and stress to them how lucky they are, because they’ll be inheriting this awesome set-it-and-forget-it mechanism. Just grease the gears and change the filters every now and then — that’s all you have to do!

    Unfortunately, their sincere, heartfelt warnings and advice tend to strike up-and-coming generations as a bit corny and over-the-top.

    Then another generation comes along and believes they can turn the mechanism off and sell it for scrap, because the fundamentals are so dead obvious that people will just naturally absorb them, without any outside reinforcement…

    And on and on, ad infinitum.

    Or as a popular Facebook meme puts it: Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

    Read More
    • Agree: BB753
    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Unfortunately, their sincere, heartfelt warnings and advice tend to strike up-and-coming generations as a bit corny and over-the-top.

    Could you offer us some sincere, heartfelt warnings and advice?

  131. @whorefinder
    PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females.

    The problem was that the hippie-commune selling point of "free love"---hey, everyone's gonna get laid equally---turned into the reality of hypergamy. Women, freed of the constraints of marrying the one man in her bracket and being faithful to him, flocked to sex up the top 20% of men around. The bottom 80% of men were left punching the clowns.

    PUA has taught part of that 80% how to look and act like the top 20% and get women to sleep with them. Women have gotten mad at PUAs because they want to sleep with actual top-20% of men, not one of the 80% doing a good impression. That's the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement.

    Most PUAs would love a return to the chaste-monogomous-marriage-comitted women of the 1950s halycon vision, but, bitterly, have accepted that finding a good virginal coquettish woman is impossible. So they've resorted to getting what little pleasure can be had from the situation, by aping clownish behavior to get a woman to lie with them. A few hours of sex beats none at all.

    MGTOW is a similar rational response by men, except these men eschew bothering with women even to get laid. PUA techniques is just wasted effort to them, since women are so hostile. Better to be alone that risk getting fooled by a woman into a sexless relationship with a shrew.

    Seems on point. For many, learning PUA is more a way to get a Psychology 101 course with a focus on female attraction in an age unshackled from 50s social norms. What eludes many is that a lot of conservative minded men coming of age after 1990 were fatally ignorant that feminism had tipped the scales in terms of mate selection criteria. If one was vaguely chivalrous or an old world gentleman, it could be disastrous relative to expectations. Women don’t need providers anymore, inasmuch as they want a combo of the snarling, overtly masculine Jimmy Dean/Marlon Brando archetype and someone charismatic to entertain them . If you also have a good income, smarts and other hobbies, that is fine, but keep those in reserve. They aren’t calling cards of importance like they might have been in 1970. And gentlemanly habits are to be withheld as rare garnishes. Nowadays gentlemanly behavior is simply construed as needy approval seeking.

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Interesting comment. Though I am skeptical that something so fundamental as attraction could shift so suddenly (as you narrate) on the drafts of the Zeitgeist.
    , @Desiderius

    Nowadays gentlemanly behavior is simply construed as needy approval seeking.
     
    Without dominance it is. With dominance, it can be dynamite.

    I mostly went with gentle dominance plus humor/even temperament. It worked.
  132. @Alec Leamas
    I'm confused. Donna Zuckerberg is a doctrinaire feminist ("affirmative consent" is a dead giveaway that she feeds daily on a diet of Jezebel etc.). Third wave feminists are purportedly "sex positive" and encourage girls to be sluts and to seek sexual pleasure free of the pressures and meddling of patriarchal institutions and families. If sauce is good for the goose, why is it so bad for the gander? Why should women pursue sexual pleasure and notch counts with abandon, but men be hemmed in by conservative notions of male chivalry on the one side and doctrinaire feminism on the other side?

    “Third wave feminists are purportedly “sex positive” and encourage girls to be sluts and to seek sexual pleasure free of the pressures and meddling of patriarchal institutions and families.”

    So 3rd wave feminists are loose sluts who want men to grab them by their pussies? So they all voted for Donald J. Trump right?

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  133. @wren
    Roissy is discussing "Cuckersperg" right now.

    https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2016/12/22/fact-checking-snopes/

    I have the same question as Steve. How does Roissy escape both the notice of Zuckerberg (and for that matter the SPLC).

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  134. @Thursday
    https://twitter.com/donnazuck/status/805106304792395776

    Mentioning my brother is sexist.

    So consideration that you will have no financial worries for your lifetime or for the lifetime of your children, even grandchildren is off limits? Sexist? Might it not help explain why high earning, credentialed women get frustrated by their scarcity of mate options? Did resource acquisition or other practical matters never factor into female mate selection in the modern world ?

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Might it not help explain why high earning, credentialed women get frustrated by their scarcity of mate options?

    I don't quite follow you here. What helps explain what?
  135. @Inquiring Mind
    Do any men, or women, here suppose that "Game" has any applicability to being married and staying married?

    Does being married relieve a man of any need to initiate sexual encounters with his wife? Or is everything supposed to happen just mutually, spontaneously and with affirmative consent, all the time forever after, and if you feel the need to persuade your wife to be "in the mood", does that make you a brute or a law breaker in the State of California -- see http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-men-do-to-ruin-their-own-sex-lives/ for the P.C. take on this.

    Do women stop feeling the need to be courted and pursued -- and I mean by their husband -- as soon as they exchange vows?

    Do people here suppose that knowledge of "Game" may be necessary at some point for a man to stay married, or at least not to be "played" by a home-wrecking woman? Do you suppose there are circumstances under which a man should objectify women -- that babe at work sure seems interested in me and she is looking for every excuse to come by an chat, but thinking about it, she is not nearly half as good looking as my wife and what do I get out of busting up my marriage apart from ending up poor? Are there circumstances under which following one's heart instead of looking at people, relationships, and life situations from a more utilitarian perspective could result in a bad moral outcome?

    Do men reading Popular Mechanics repair their car every time it needs maintenance, fill the house with custom bookshelves, and build their kids all their backyard playground equipment? Do women reading Martha Stewart Living ever entertain guests on that scale. Or maybe a man gets the idea how to drive a nail to tack down a loose board and a woman gets an idea for a fancy recipe for some special occasion?

    I haven't spent time reading the PUA blogs, but does everyone lurking at those sites chase after every woman who bats an eyelash at them? Or maybe some shy guy gets confidence to "say hello" to some woman he really likes and with whom seeks a serious relationship?

    I’m a woman and I read Chateau Heartiste pretty frequently, thinking his site serves a good purpose — along with some bad ones.

    I think men, married or not, could definitely benefit from “game” in order to counteract the social forces that have at least tried to beat the masculinity out of them. Roissy helps get men to reclaim their balls, and that’s nothing but good. He also teaches them how to understand how most women think, how they relate what they’re thinking through body language, and how to respond to it all in a way that keeps them interested. All good.

    I wish, though, that he weren’t pushing hedonism. I’m Catholic, so — ya know, I believe that sex should stay inside marriage, etc., you know the drill. Teaching men how to “game” women just so they can bed them isn’t a decent goal. In fact, it’s one that leads to more of what we’ve got: a civilization that’s falling apart, fatherless children, etc. I’ve often wished there were a “Christian game” site — one that’s set up to help “re-masculinize” men so they can build strong marriages. But I reckon that until marriage/divorce/custody laws change, marriage will remain a sucker’s bet for guys (maybe pre-nups can help with all that?).

    I also lament how he seems to put the onus for everything sexual on the female. I understand why the sexual double standard exists. It makes sociological and biological sense. But on a moral level, men shouldn’t be, to paraphrase Roissy, “riding the cunt carousel” any more than women should be riding the “cock” one. And it is men who, more often than not, initiate sex — and it’s a lot easier to say no to initiating sex than it is to say no when some guy is kissing all over your neck and grabbing your breast. So maybe there should be a double standard as well about initiating sex with someone you’re not married to, with men having more of a burden. Maybe the word “cad” and the idea of “seduction” in the old-school sense need a comeback.

    There also needs to be a “game” site for women, too, a site that teaches women about what men are like, how to please them, etc. IOW, a site that helps “re-feminize” women without being prudish and silly. It takes two to tango, and way too many Western women are unmarriageable.

    Read More
    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @gregor
    Check out Dalrock
    , @Anonym
    There also needs to be a “game” site for women, too, a site that teaches women about what men are like, how to please them, etc. IOW, a site that helps “re-feminize” women without being prudish and silly. It takes two to tango, and way too many Western women are unmarriageable.

    I think you've got a pretty healthy perspective. The current status quo is messed up on both sides. Women who don't realize that cats/veganism/PETA/celebrity obsession/feminism/SJWism is like garlic to vampires, if vampires were men. Coupled with the search for Prince Charming instead of someone roughly equivalent to their own market value in the marriage game.

    You've got PUAs who don't realize that time advances... what is not abnormal in your twenties becomes uselessly masturbatory in your 30s on up. You've got men who won't try.

    There are still quite a few people out there who are meeting and having children.
  136. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Roissey is pushing 50, never married, childless. He can’t provide any credible insight into how to have a healthy family or how female psychology changes once they have a child.

    Roosh is Middle Eastern, in his late 30s, has never been married, is childless, has never been in a long term relationship. Probably still looking for his 18 year old Ukrainian virgin wife to be (good luck with that one).

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Roissey is pushing 50, never married, childless. He can’t provide any credible insight into how to have a healthy family or how female psychology changes once they have a child.

    Can you provide us some credible insight then?

    , @Jefferson
    "Roissey is pushing 50, never married, childless. He can’t provide any credible insight into how to have a healthy family or how female psychology changes once they have a child."

    It's never too late to become a father. Steve Martin did not become a dad for the first time until he was 67.

    "Roosh is Middle Eastern, in his late 30s, has never been married, is childless, has never been in a long term relationship. Probably still looking for his 18 year old Ukrainian virgin wife to be (good luck with that one)."

    His future 18 year old wife doesn't have to be Ukrainian. She can also be Brazilian, Russian, Colombian, Polish, Venezuelan, Serbian, Argentinian, or Czech for example.

    Roosh V likes South American women and Eastern European women equally. He is not really into WASP chicks though, as he doesn't think they are feminine enough.

  137. @Abe

    She is neither a good writer nor a deep thinker. Similar to her brother.
     
    Doesn't Zuck have an every ditzier other sister?

    Personality-wise I actually think Donna is pretty cute, and getting a PhD (OK, it's not particle physics, but it's not a "Studies" major either) is nothing to sneeze at, particularly if it involves fluency in another language (or two). She writes 10X more lucidly than Ta Genius, has made a basic effort to understand her subject, and even throws in cute references to guy-stuff like gangster rap or GAME OF THRONES.

    Personally I think all of this is a cry for the tall, dark, and bearded Roosh to sweep her off her feet (bonus points for some kinky Esther/Haman bedroom roleplay later..)

    Fair enough

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  138. @Sean
    Donna is complaining about females' hard wired preference for mating with men who will father a womanising son to spread the mother's genes far and wide (AKA the sexy son hypothesis).

    . ... there are underlying flaws in the concept of seduction as a teachable skill
     
    True, getting a girl is like looking for work, it's tough at the entry level or when unemployed; you need a job to get a job. Women want men who already have a woman and thus have a proven ability to get women. It all boils down to making the targeted female think that you must have already seduced an awful lot of women.

    “Donna is complaining about females’ hard wired preference for mating with men who will father a womanising son to spread the mother’s genes far and wide (AKA the sexy son hypothesis).”

    I never heard of this hypothesis. Is this something you completely made up or is there research on this phenomenon? Please enlighten us.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexy_son_hypothesis

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dating-and-mating/201607/why-some-women-are-attracted-the-least-available-men
    Regardless of the actual physical attractiveness of the men, women tend to rate men as more appealing when they are dating an attractive female partner (Waynforth, 2007; Yorzinski and Platt, 2010). However, this same research finds that the reverse is also true: Men are perceived as less appealing when they date an unattractive female partner.
     
    Donald Trump always knew it.
  139. @Thursday
    Again, of what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?

    "FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAG!"

    Fag is from the mid-sixteenth century, a verb in the sense of ‘grow weary’. So, you’re right. I have grown weary of your juvenile antics.

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    • Replies: @whorefinder
    FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAG.
    , @Thursday
    You totally missed the joke. Not surprising.
  140. @whorefinder
    PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females.

    The problem was that the hippie-commune selling point of "free love"---hey, everyone's gonna get laid equally---turned into the reality of hypergamy. Women, freed of the constraints of marrying the one man in her bracket and being faithful to him, flocked to sex up the top 20% of men around. The bottom 80% of men were left punching the clowns.

    PUA has taught part of that 80% how to look and act like the top 20% and get women to sleep with them. Women have gotten mad at PUAs because they want to sleep with actual top-20% of men, not one of the 80% doing a good impression. That's the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement.

    Most PUAs would love a return to the chaste-monogomous-marriage-comitted women of the 1950s halycon vision, but, bitterly, have accepted that finding a good virginal coquettish woman is impossible. So they've resorted to getting what little pleasure can be had from the situation, by aping clownish behavior to get a woman to lie with them. A few hours of sex beats none at all.

    MGTOW is a similar rational response by men, except these men eschew bothering with women even to get laid. PUA techniques is just wasted effort to them, since women are so hostile. Better to be alone that risk getting fooled by a woman into a sexless relationship with a shrew.

    “PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females.”

    Men and women have been sleeping around before and during marriage for centuries. The sexual revolution of the 1960′s only brought this phenomenon to the forefront.

    “Women, freed of the constraints of marrying the one man in her bracket and being faithful to him, flocked to sex up the top 20% of men around. The bottom 80% of men were left punching the clowns.”

    So man up. Read self-help books like Gorilla Mindset and become part of the 20%. Although, I would like to know how how accurate is this 80-20 statistic. What sources prove it?

    “That’s the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement.”

    No, the enmity stems from PUA’s who teach men to “pump and dump” rather than be the protectors of Western Civilization.

    “Most PUAs would love a return to the chaste-monogomous-marriage-comitted women of the 1950s halycon vision…”

    Which is an absolute myth.

    ” but, bitterly, have accepted that finding a good virginal coquettish woman is impossible. So they’ve resorted to getting what little pleasure can be had from the situation, by aping clownish behavior to get a woman to lie with them. A few hours of sex beats none at all.”

    Not for the Christian male. Only sex during marriage. But what about yourself, Whorefinder? Why do you pay for sex and seek the comforts of slutty women? Are we suppose to believe that you desire to marry a hot virgin and have sire your own litter of white offspring, rather than troll for trim at your local watering hole?

    “MGTOW is a similar rational response by men, except these men eschew bothering with women even to get laid. PUA techniques is just wasted effort to them, since women are so hostile. Better to be alone that risk getting fooled by a woman into a sexless relationship with a shrew.”

    Weaksauce. Buy Gorilla Mindset. Change your life.

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    • Replies: @Anonym
    No, the enmity stems from PUA’s who teach men to “pump and dump” rather than be the protectors of Western Civilization.

    First, probably last time I'll ever agree with Corvinus. Even a blind squirrel digs up a nut occasionally!
    , @whorefinder

    No, the enmity stems from PUA’s who teach men to “pump and dump” rather than be the protectors of Western Civilization.
     
    lol. nope, you're a liar.

    Women hate PUAs because they don't want to go to bed with James Dean and wake up with Steve Urkel.

    The men who hate PUAs are the kind of white knighting cucks (like yourself) who think modern Western women are pristine angels who have honor worth defending. You supplicate yourself like a debased knave.

    But hey, at least Mr. Brock is paying you a salary for doing it online, right?


    “Most PUAs would love a return to the chaste-monogomous-marriage-comitted women of the 1950s halycon vision…”

    Which is an absolute myth
     

    lol. You clearly aren't actually reading most PUA sites, and are just out to be angry lying Corvy again.
  141. @BB753
    Women have always been women. Its just that they knew their place back then and weren't out of control as they are now. And sluts were shamed instead of celebrated.

    “Its just that they knew their place back then and weren’t out of control as they are now.”

    No, that’s what you were taught on reruns of Leave It To Beaver. Women were out of control then and now. It just wasn’t publicized.

    “And sluts were shamed instead of celebrated.”

    That’s the work of white men who promote porn and PUA. Blame and shame them.

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "That’s the work of white men who promote porn and PUA. Blame and shame them."

    One of the few times I agree with you. German porn is even more XXX than American porn and Germany is a much Whiter country than The United States.
    , @BB753
    Corvinus, you're such a contrarian! Do you seriously believe women 60 years ago could afford to sport tattoos, dress like whores and sleep around with no consequences?
    The shaming of sluts was mostly done by women BTW.
  142. @Matra
    Roissy (or to give his blog its current name, Heartiste) has gone so white nationalist that I find myself wondering whether it’s actually the same guy writing the blog.

    He was always white nationalist, it's just that he didn't write as much about it until about 2010.

    No, he wrote posts about 10 years ago stating apartheid & Jim Crow were evil. So either it’s a different writer or they’ve had a chance of heart.

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  143. @Anonymous
    Roissey is pushing 50, never married, childless. He can't provide any credible insight into how to have a healthy family or how female psychology changes once they have a child.

    Roosh is Middle Eastern, in his late 30s, has never been married, is childless, has never been in a long term relationship. Probably still looking for his 18 year old Ukrainian virgin wife to be (good luck with that one).

    Roissey is pushing 50, never married, childless. He can’t provide any credible insight into how to have a healthy family or how female psychology changes once they have a child.

    Can you provide us some credible insight then?

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  144. @whorefinder
    PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females.

    The problem was that the hippie-commune selling point of "free love"---hey, everyone's gonna get laid equally---turned into the reality of hypergamy. Women, freed of the constraints of marrying the one man in her bracket and being faithful to him, flocked to sex up the top 20% of men around. The bottom 80% of men were left punching the clowns.

    PUA has taught part of that 80% how to look and act like the top 20% and get women to sleep with them. Women have gotten mad at PUAs because they want to sleep with actual top-20% of men, not one of the 80% doing a good impression. That's the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement.

    Most PUAs would love a return to the chaste-monogomous-marriage-comitted women of the 1950s halycon vision, but, bitterly, have accepted that finding a good virginal coquettish woman is impossible. So they've resorted to getting what little pleasure can be had from the situation, by aping clownish behavior to get a woman to lie with them. A few hours of sex beats none at all.

    MGTOW is a similar rational response by men, except these men eschew bothering with women even to get laid. PUA techniques is just wasted effort to them, since women are so hostile. Better to be alone that risk getting fooled by a woman into a sexless relationship with a shrew.

    PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females.

    I think to some extent you are right. If no female is going to give it up prior to marriage, then there is not a lot of point of game, really, as far as obtaining sex.

    The problem was that the hippie-commune selling point of “free love”—hey, everyone’s gonna get laid equally—turned into the reality of hypergamy. Women, freed of the constraints of marrying the one man in her bracket and being faithful to him, flocked to sex up the top 20% of men around. The bottom 80% of men were left punching the clowns.

    Irrespective of the actual percentages, there is some truth to this. I guess every time I was going clubbing in my youth, prior to marriage I was depriving someone else of finding a mate as I sorted through the options. I am not sure exactly what would have happened 100 years before that, but I doubt that the courting process would have been instantaneous. I still would have sucked the attention from some other guy while I was at the local dance or whatever. Instead of sex there might have been some heavy petting. Condoms have been around since the 1850s btw. Celebrities were getting laid before the 1960s.

    PUA has taught part of that 80% how to look and act like the top 20% and get women to sleep with them. Women have gotten mad at PUAs because they want to sleep with actual top-20% of men, not one of the 80% doing a good impression. That’s the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement.

    Both sides have long been trying to make silk purses out of sow’s ears for a long, long time. Hair dye, wigs, cosmetics, corsets, fancy clothes… this wasn’t invented recently. And PUA has basically just been a sort of codified DIY version of what men have mostly learned on their own and by observation for a long, long time.

    I think women have gotten mad at PUA because they want to find someone who is earnestly looking to settle down, not someone who has studied how to press buttons of women to fairly reliably get laid without paying for it (other than say the hour preparing to go out, the travel time and fuel cost to get there, maybe to someone’s house, and then get home, the cost of the drinks and entry fees, the food out, and the value of their own time which is probably 4-8 hours) instead of visiting a prostitute… and has no intention whatsoever of entertaining the idea of marriage to her.

    Keep having children until you get a daughter. It’ll change your thinking. They have biological clocks, they have a finite window of attractiveness, and they have urges to have children (which practically requires a providing and protecting partner). Just having sex with a user is kind of empty for them.

    Most PUAs would love a return to the chaste-monogomous-marriage-comitted women of the 1950s halycon vision, but, bitterly, have accepted that finding a good virginal coquettish woman is impossible. So they’ve resorted to getting what little pleasure can be had from the situation, by aping clownish behavior to get a woman to lie with them. A few hours of sex beats none at all.

    Maybe so for a few. For quite a few others, they enjoy the game, the sex, the conversation, the look and feel of a never-before-sampled female body as the clothes come off, and the multiple little wins along the way.

    MGTOW is a similar rational response by men, except these men eschew bothering with women even to get laid. PUA techniques is just wasted effort to them, since women are so hostile. Better to be alone that risk getting fooled by a woman into a sexless relationship with a shrew.

    Rejection sucks, but at the end of the day giving yourself zero chance instead of 5% is just a cop out. Even if your chances are only 5%, you only have to try 20 times on average.

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    • Replies: @Desiderius

    they want to find someone who is earnestly looking to settle down
     
    But they want to have to work at it. Too earnest too fast is like a loose woman.

    Men want to find a woman who will have sex with them, but not on the first date and not without him having to work for it. The instinctive reason for this is cuckoldry prevention. If she's easy with him, she's likelier to be easy in general.

    Likewise women with men who want to settle down too fast. The instinctive reason here is avoiding men who give away their commitment too easily (to mistresses, for instance). Once they're a family, his premature/unwise generosity could put her family's resources in danger.

    Men and women who are not very socially adept can easily misinterpret this (both ways) as a lack of interest in marriage and commitment.
  145. @Corvinus
    "Its just that they knew their place back then and weren’t out of control as they are now."

    No, that's what you were taught on reruns of Leave It To Beaver. Women were out of control then and now. It just wasn't publicized.

    "And sluts were shamed instead of celebrated."

    That's the work of white men who promote porn and PUA. Blame and shame them.

    “That’s the work of white men who promote porn and PUA. Blame and shame them.”

    One of the few times I agree with you. German porn is even more XXX than American porn and Germany is a much Whiter country than The United States.

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  146. @Corvinus
    "PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females."

    Men and women have been sleeping around before and during marriage for centuries. The sexual revolution of the 1960's only brought this phenomenon to the forefront.

    "Women, freed of the constraints of marrying the one man in her bracket and being faithful to him, flocked to sex up the top 20% of men around. The bottom 80% of men were left punching the clowns."

    So man up. Read self-help books like Gorilla Mindset and become part of the 20%. Although, I would like to know how how accurate is this 80-20 statistic. What sources prove it?

    "That’s the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement."

    No, the enmity stems from PUA's who teach men to "pump and dump" rather than be the protectors of Western Civilization.

    "Most PUAs would love a return to the chaste-monogomous-marriage-comitted women of the 1950s halycon vision..."

    Which is an absolute myth.

    " but, bitterly, have accepted that finding a good virginal coquettish woman is impossible. So they’ve resorted to getting what little pleasure can be had from the situation, by aping clownish behavior to get a woman to lie with them. A few hours of sex beats none at all."

    Not for the Christian male. Only sex during marriage. But what about yourself, Whorefinder? Why do you pay for sex and seek the comforts of slutty women? Are we suppose to believe that you desire to marry a hot virgin and have sire your own litter of white offspring, rather than troll for trim at your local watering hole?

    "MGTOW is a similar rational response by men, except these men eschew bothering with women even to get laid. PUA techniques is just wasted effort to them, since women are so hostile. Better to be alone that risk getting fooled by a woman into a sexless relationship with a shrew."

    Weaksauce. Buy Gorilla Mindset. Change your life.

    No, the enmity stems from PUA’s who teach men to “pump and dump” rather than be the protectors of Western Civilization.

    First, probably last time I’ll ever agree with Corvinus. Even a blind squirrel digs up a nut occasionally!

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  147. @Tracy
    I'm a woman and I read Chateau Heartiste pretty frequently, thinking his site serves a good purpose -- along with some bad ones.

    I think men, married or not, could definitely benefit from "game" in order to counteract the social forces that have at least tried to beat the masculinity out of them. Roissy helps get men to reclaim their balls, and that's nothing but good. He also teaches them how to understand how most women think, how they relate what they're thinking through body language, and how to respond to it all in a way that keeps them interested. All good.

    I wish, though, that he weren't pushing hedonism. I'm Catholic, so -- ya know, I believe that sex should stay inside marriage, etc., you know the drill. Teaching men how to "game" women just so they can bed them isn't a decent goal. In fact, it's one that leads to more of what we've got: a civilization that's falling apart, fatherless children, etc. I've often wished there were a "Christian game" site -- one that's set up to help "re-masculinize" men so they can build strong marriages. But I reckon that until marriage/divorce/custody laws change, marriage will remain a sucker's bet for guys (maybe pre-nups can help with all that?).

    I also lament how he seems to put the onus for everything sexual on the female. I understand why the sexual double standard exists. It makes sociological and biological sense. But on a moral level, men shouldn't be, to paraphrase Roissy, "riding the cunt carousel" any more than women should be riding the "cock" one. And it is men who, more often than not, initiate sex -- and it's a lot easier to say no to initiating sex than it is to say no when some guy is kissing all over your neck and grabbing your breast. So maybe there should be a double standard as well about initiating sex with someone you're not married to, with men having more of a burden. Maybe the word "cad" and the idea of "seduction" in the old-school sense need a comeback.

    There also needs to be a "game" site for women, too, a site that teaches women about what men are like, how to please them, etc. IOW, a site that helps "re-feminize" women without being prudish and silly. It takes two to tango, and way too many Western women are unmarriageable.

    Check out Dalrock

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  148. @Inquiring Mind
    Do any men, or women, here suppose that "Game" has any applicability to being married and staying married?

    Does being married relieve a man of any need to initiate sexual encounters with his wife? Or is everything supposed to happen just mutually, spontaneously and with affirmative consent, all the time forever after, and if you feel the need to persuade your wife to be "in the mood", does that make you a brute or a law breaker in the State of California -- see http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-men-do-to-ruin-their-own-sex-lives/ for the P.C. take on this.

    Do women stop feeling the need to be courted and pursued -- and I mean by their husband -- as soon as they exchange vows?

    Do people here suppose that knowledge of "Game" may be necessary at some point for a man to stay married, or at least not to be "played" by a home-wrecking woman? Do you suppose there are circumstances under which a man should objectify women -- that babe at work sure seems interested in me and she is looking for every excuse to come by an chat, but thinking about it, she is not nearly half as good looking as my wife and what do I get out of busting up my marriage apart from ending up poor? Are there circumstances under which following one's heart instead of looking at people, relationships, and life situations from a more utilitarian perspective could result in a bad moral outcome?

    Do men reading Popular Mechanics repair their car every time it needs maintenance, fill the house with custom bookshelves, and build their kids all their backyard playground equipment? Do women reading Martha Stewart Living ever entertain guests on that scale. Or maybe a man gets the idea how to drive a nail to tack down a loose board and a woman gets an idea for a fancy recipe for some special occasion?

    I haven't spent time reading the PUA blogs, but does everyone lurking at those sites chase after every woman who bats an eyelash at them? Or maybe some shy guy gets confidence to "say hello" to some woman he really likes and with whom seeks a serious relationship?

    I’ve been together with my second wife for nearly thirty years, following an insanely hot romance and a maximally exotic marriage. The sex is at minimum pretty good, no viagra required so far, and is still sometimes very good indeed. Before I met her, I had literally scores of hetero affairs, some while I was still living with my first wife. Plenty of action, no satisfaction. I also stay in touch with a handful of former lovers and notably, several other women whom I’ve always found attractive but with whom I was either friend-zoned (incel city!) or had good reason not to pursue sexually.

    (I’ve gotten closer and closer to my first wife as well, with whom the sex was usually catastrophic: largely because of my cluelessness. She has good reason to detest me, but doesn’t.)

    In every case they were/are women whom I knew before meeting my wife. We have a grown daughter, with whom we’re both very close. We also work together professionally, as well as on our individual projects which typically entail living at least three months apart every year, sometimes on different continents. My travel and research tends to be in developing countries with a surfeit of drop-dead beautiful young women looking for an escape route out.

    Since our marriage, two years after our initial encounter, I have never even half-seriously come onto any other woman sexually, even though —to my amazement, now well into my 70s— women look better and better and more immediately emotionally transportive than ever before. I’ve been following Heartiste for at least five years and in retrospect I can see where —back in the old days— I was — sequentially— a beta hoverer, an alpha jerkboy, a borderline sociopath. I also really get how the dynamics of our own marriage follows the astonishing, hard-wired differences between men and women.

    On more than one occasion, when things were very dicey within our marriage, and not because I was stepping out or losing sexual or emotional interest (my wife comes from a country where “women of a certain age” know how to look good and remain alluring), I looked to Game as the key of where to take things. It always worked like a charm.

    Roissy’s thing about the Joooos, which is becoming ever more dominant in his writings, is increasingly a turn off. But as with our host, I’m flabbergasted by how the famously-smart Jooos (I’m a semi-observant Ashkenazi myself) are so utterly out to lunch about how driven liberal/progressive tikkunistas are to undermine host cultures and not even realizing how large “choose the form of your destructors” figures amongst them/us. For her part, my wife was convent educated from a very traditional Catho background, but all she knew about Jooos was what she gleaned out of Woody Allen films… and I noticed when seeing them in a movie house with her co-nationals, they usually laughed at the wrong places. She knows more now.

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  149. @whorefinder
    PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females.

    The problem was that the hippie-commune selling point of "free love"---hey, everyone's gonna get laid equally---turned into the reality of hypergamy. Women, freed of the constraints of marrying the one man in her bracket and being faithful to him, flocked to sex up the top 20% of men around. The bottom 80% of men were left punching the clowns.

    PUA has taught part of that 80% how to look and act like the top 20% and get women to sleep with them. Women have gotten mad at PUAs because they want to sleep with actual top-20% of men, not one of the 80% doing a good impression. That's the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement.

    Most PUAs would love a return to the chaste-monogomous-marriage-comitted women of the 1950s halycon vision, but, bitterly, have accepted that finding a good virginal coquettish woman is impossible. So they've resorted to getting what little pleasure can be had from the situation, by aping clownish behavior to get a woman to lie with them. A few hours of sex beats none at all.

    MGTOW is a similar rational response by men, except these men eschew bothering with women even to get laid. PUA techniques is just wasted effort to them, since women are so hostile. Better to be alone that risk getting fooled by a woman into a sexless relationship with a shrew.

    “PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females.”

    So before the 1960s the vast majority of women who had never been married were virgins?

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    • Replies: @whorefinder
    The generation of young women of age between 1930-1960 were monogomous and virginal. They might have sex with their beau before marriage, or do some heavy petting, but that's it. Women with multiple partners were limited to prostitutes or upper-class "society" girls who could (literally) afford to sleep around without the stigma hurting them.

    And yes, there have been waves throughout history of chastity and then sexual licentiousness. Ancient Rome and 1700s aristocratic France had famous times of sexual orgies. But the generation before the 1960s had chaste women who were much better marriage material than the post-1960s women.
    , @Desiderius
    Most pre-marital sex was with the person they eventually married.
  150. @Tracy
    Call me a romantic, but anyone who chooses a mate primarily because of looks is stupid, and pushing that phenomenon as the mark of Right Behavior ignores the fact that, often, to one who's in love, the less stereotypically physically attractive things about a person can come to be the things that are most beloved. Norms are norms and always will be. What most people consider beautiful or handsome is rooted in biology and sociological forces. But still, when a guy meets a girl and is hit by the thunderbolt, her not-so-straight teeth can come to be one of the main things that he finds charming about her. A woman in love will find her husband's bald spot endearingly kissable. Doesn't mean that either one goes stupid and doesn't recognize that crooked teeth and bald spots won't win a person modelling contracts, but it is what it is, and love is love.

    All that aside, I really hate the dissing of people because of physical features they can't change. Even when it comes to Hillary -- whom I despise -- and her "cankles." It's bullying, 2nd grade behavior, and I don't like it even if it comes from people I otherwise agree with politically. Our side is supposed to be -- or should be anyway -- better than that crap. Leave the baby tactics to the babies liberals.

    Doesn’t mean that either one goes stupid and doesn’t recognize that crooked teeth and bald spots won’t win a person modelling contracts, but it is what it is, and love is love.

    I do not know that men experience the “falling in love” that women experience.

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    • Replies: @Tracy
    Oh, they do! I hope it happens to you, that it happens with a woman worthy of you, and that it's reciprocated!
    , @anonguy

    I do not know that men experience the “falling in love” that women experience.
     
    I can't speak to what you do or do not know, but men, at least some, experience all-encompassing falling in love.

    I have one personal story that if I ever wrote up would be a terrific love story. I haven't done so because it would invade privacy as well as I'm occupied with other things in life rather than writing/publishing.

    Maybe it will be a retirement project. It is quite a story and melts the hearts of the few to whom I've told it.

    Men can form bonds with women that transcend time, space, and separation for decades.
  151. @CrunchybutRealistCon
    Seems on point. For many, learning PUA is more a way to get a Psychology 101 course with a focus on female attraction in an age unshackled from 50s social norms. What eludes many is that a lot of conservative minded men coming of age after 1990 were fatally ignorant that feminism had tipped the scales in terms of mate selection criteria. If one was vaguely chivalrous or an old world gentleman, it could be disastrous relative to expectations. Women don't need providers anymore, inasmuch as they want a combo of the snarling, overtly masculine Jimmy Dean/Marlon Brando archetype and someone charismatic to entertain them . If you also have a good income, smarts and other hobbies, that is fine, but keep those in reserve. They aren't calling cards of importance like they might have been in 1970. And gentlemanly habits are to be withheld as rare garnishes. Nowadays gentlemanly behavior is simply construed as needy approval seeking.

    Interesting comment. Though I am skeptical that something so fundamental as attraction could shift so suddenly (as you narrate) on the drafts of the Zeitgeist.

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    • Replies: @CrunchybutRealistCon
    This is complicated but in a nutshell, what has happened IMO is that "6" or "7" caliber women have raised their sites from from settling with a 7 or 8 caliber man. Nowadays they want a man who has the charisma or status rating of a 9. So guys who might have been considered 7s or 8s vis status, charisma, have to raise their game to exude more dominance, strength of identity. Being a reliable provider used to count for something, but not so much today. Due to record levels of university credentialism, careerism, and income, women have the illusion of independence but by their mid 30s, they realize it ain't exactly so (at least if they want kids). I would suggest reading Roger Devlin's book, "Sexual Utopia in Power". A more stark take is that there was balanced status mate selection most most of the 20th Century, but post 1965, that gradually imbalanced to 80% of the women chasing 20% of the higher status men. IMO, it is probably more like 50% of women chasing the top 10% of men. The other 50% of women are either overweight, obese, retro-traditional, or special cases(crazy, broken or SJW lefties). Basically they are not attractive enough (due to obesity or kook thinking) or simply unavailable to an average provider male, with average looks & status.
  152. @Anonymous
    Roissey is pushing 50, never married, childless. He can't provide any credible insight into how to have a healthy family or how female psychology changes once they have a child.

    Roosh is Middle Eastern, in his late 30s, has never been married, is childless, has never been in a long term relationship. Probably still looking for his 18 year old Ukrainian virgin wife to be (good luck with that one).

    “Roissey is pushing 50, never married, childless. He can’t provide any credible insight into how to have a healthy family or how female psychology changes once they have a child.”

    It’s never too late to become a father. Steve Martin did not become a dad for the first time until he was 67.

    “Roosh is Middle Eastern, in his late 30s, has never been married, is childless, has never been in a long term relationship. Probably still looking for his 18 year old Ukrainian virgin wife to be (good luck with that one).”

    His future 18 year old wife doesn’t have to be Ukrainian. She can also be Brazilian, Russian, Colombian, Polish, Venezuelan, Serbian, Argentinian, or Czech for example.

    Roosh V likes South American women and Eastern European women equally. He is not really into WASP chicks though, as he doesn’t think they are feminine enough.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "Roosh V likes South American women and Eastern European women equally. He is not really into WASP chicks though, as he doesn’t think they are feminine ENOUGH."

    From what I've noticed in Roosh, he is really aspiring to have a Slavic wife. He is aiming very, very high, judging from his list of desirable traits (in fact, what he's aiming for, is usually what E.European alphas get). It's been years since he's been prowling in Eastern Europe and he still hasn't managed to have even one long term relationship. All he has is these mini "relationships" (he's fooling himself by calling those relationships) where he tricks the women into believing he has some assets or serious intentions, but it fizzles. He will soon start aging out of his prime (for males 27-42, 45 max or so).

    The problem is not just that he aims too high, but that he doesn't KNOW how to maintain a relationship, especially with a beautiful, young female.

    Most Eastern European nationalists agree that a guy like that should be banned from entering EE.

    I think he's chances with a light brown South American would be much higher.

    And speaking of Roissy, yes, it may not be too late for a 50 year old man to become a father (although not that advisable due to risk of mental illness), Roissy himself has said he doesn't want kids. He probably won't have any.

    , @Anonymous

    "Roosh V likes South American women and Eastern European women equally. He is not REALLY into WASP chicks though, as he doesn’t think they are feminine enough."
     
    Are you really as naive as to believe that the WASP chicks (that is, non-fat, relatively attractive Western white women of Anglo or Germanic extraction) in the age bracket of 18-35 might be attracted or want to have anything romantic to do with someone like Roosh??
    , @JSM
    It’s never too late to become a father. Steve Martin did not become a dad for the first time until he was 67.

    Uh, wrong. While it may be never too late to cause pregnancy, the older the dad gets the higher the risk his kid will be autistic / Down syndrome.

    Also, being a dad isn't only about sperm donation. A dad at 67 is not likely to be around long enough to raise that kid to adulthood, and the modern epidemic of poor outcomes in children raised by single mothers says, Dad's presence and discipline and love during childhood and teenage years are utterly vital.


    http://www.menshealth.com/health/age-and-risks-of-fathering-a-child
    http://www.webmd.com/infertility-and-reproduction/news/20030701/dad-age-down-syndrome

  153. @Tracy
    I'm a woman and I read Chateau Heartiste pretty frequently, thinking his site serves a good purpose -- along with some bad ones.

    I think men, married or not, could definitely benefit from "game" in order to counteract the social forces that have at least tried to beat the masculinity out of them. Roissy helps get men to reclaim their balls, and that's nothing but good. He also teaches them how to understand how most women think, how they relate what they're thinking through body language, and how to respond to it all in a way that keeps them interested. All good.

    I wish, though, that he weren't pushing hedonism. I'm Catholic, so -- ya know, I believe that sex should stay inside marriage, etc., you know the drill. Teaching men how to "game" women just so they can bed them isn't a decent goal. In fact, it's one that leads to more of what we've got: a civilization that's falling apart, fatherless children, etc. I've often wished there were a "Christian game" site -- one that's set up to help "re-masculinize" men so they can build strong marriages. But I reckon that until marriage/divorce/custody laws change, marriage will remain a sucker's bet for guys (maybe pre-nups can help with all that?).

    I also lament how he seems to put the onus for everything sexual on the female. I understand why the sexual double standard exists. It makes sociological and biological sense. But on a moral level, men shouldn't be, to paraphrase Roissy, "riding the cunt carousel" any more than women should be riding the "cock" one. And it is men who, more often than not, initiate sex -- and it's a lot easier to say no to initiating sex than it is to say no when some guy is kissing all over your neck and grabbing your breast. So maybe there should be a double standard as well about initiating sex with someone you're not married to, with men having more of a burden. Maybe the word "cad" and the idea of "seduction" in the old-school sense need a comeback.

    There also needs to be a "game" site for women, too, a site that teaches women about what men are like, how to please them, etc. IOW, a site that helps "re-feminize" women without being prudish and silly. It takes two to tango, and way too many Western women are unmarriageable.

    There also needs to be a “game” site for women, too, a site that teaches women about what men are like, how to please them, etc. IOW, a site that helps “re-feminize” women without being prudish and silly. It takes two to tango, and way too many Western women are unmarriageable.

    I think you’ve got a pretty healthy perspective. The current status quo is messed up on both sides. Women who don’t realize that cats/veganism/PETA/celebrity obsession/feminism/SJWism is like garlic to vampires, if vampires were men. Coupled with the search for Prince Charming instead of someone roughly equivalent to their own market value in the marriage game.

    You’ve got PUAs who don’t realize that time advances… what is not abnormal in your twenties becomes uselessly masturbatory in your 30s on up. You’ve got men who won’t try.

    There are still quite a few people out there who are meeting and having children.

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  154. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Tracy
    Call me a romantic, but anyone who chooses a mate primarily because of looks is stupid, and pushing that phenomenon as the mark of Right Behavior ignores the fact that, often, to one who's in love, the less stereotypically physically attractive things about a person can come to be the things that are most beloved. Norms are norms and always will be. What most people consider beautiful or handsome is rooted in biology and sociological forces. But still, when a guy meets a girl and is hit by the thunderbolt, her not-so-straight teeth can come to be one of the main things that he finds charming about her. A woman in love will find her husband's bald spot endearingly kissable. Doesn't mean that either one goes stupid and doesn't recognize that crooked teeth and bald spots won't win a person modelling contracts, but it is what it is, and love is love.

    All that aside, I really hate the dissing of people because of physical features they can't change. Even when it comes to Hillary -- whom I despise -- and her "cankles." It's bullying, 2nd grade behavior, and I don't like it even if it comes from people I otherwise agree with politically. Our side is supposed to be -- or should be anyway -- better than that crap. Leave the baby tactics to the babies liberals.

    Sailer’s law of female blog post commenting?

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    • Replies: @Tracy
    LOL Nah, I'm an old, married Grandma woman, long out of the "gotta get a man" game (and I don't have crooked teeth, just an overbite). Besides, I mentioned men's bald spots, too. :P

    Seriously, the things that become most endearing about a person are often not the most stereotypically beautiful things. Sorry to sound gross, but think of that movie "Good Will Hunting" and how the shrink talked to Will about missing how his wife would fart in her sleep. KWIM? Or get a mental picture of your Mom, your Dad, or your first girlfriend in your mind and pinpoint the things that recall them the best. I have an image of my Mom's hands at work in the kitchen, for ex., and an image of my Dad that came from when we were driving down the road in the Summer, him at the wheel. I looked over at him, and there was a drop of sweat running down his nose, and he struck me as being old and vulnerable. Those images aren't of them in their prime, but they evoke them to me. The bald spot thing is based on a real thing in my life, too. You understand what I'm saying?
  155. @CrunchybutRealistCon
    So consideration that you will have no financial worries for your lifetime or for the lifetime of your children, even grandchildren is off limits? Sexist? Might it not help explain why high earning, credentialed women get frustrated by their scarcity of mate options? Did resource acquisition or other practical matters never factor into female mate selection in the modern world ?

    Might it not help explain why high earning, credentialed women get frustrated by their scarcity of mate options?

    I don’t quite follow you here. What helps explain what?

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  156. @Mr. Blank
    Yep. This is the root cause of all systemic failures, whether in sports, culture, business, government, religion, relations between the sexes, whatever:

    A generation comes along and decides that they can safely quit emphasizing fundamentals, because they believe the fundamentals are so dead obvious that people will just naturally absorb them, without any outside reinforcement. Instead, they decide to invest heavily in marginal improvements at the bleeding edge.

    At first, this new approach provides substantial gains, because this first generation is already steeped in the fundamentals, so their experiments are fruitful and productive.

    Then along comes a new generation that never learns the fundamentals. What had seemed obvious to their elders is not obvious to them, because nobody ever sits them down and explains the rules. This generation launches immediately into the bleeding-edge stuff, but makes a mess of everything because they have no idea what the hell they are doing. They're just blindly flailing away, with no rhyme or reason.

    This is the point we're at now in the West. We've got a generation that can't even grasp something as basic as male and female biology, for crying out loud.

    Next comes a generation that painfully relearns all the fundamentals. Fearing a return to the Crazy Years, they try to construct a mechanism by which the fundamentals will be inculcated in the coming generations automatically. They try to make the mechanism as idiot-proof as possible, hoping this will prevent future generations from mucking it up. They try to emphasize to the coming generations how important this all is, and stress to them how lucky they are, because they'll be inheriting this awesome set-it-and-forget-it mechanism. Just grease the gears and change the filters every now and then -- that's all you have to do!

    Unfortunately, their sincere, heartfelt warnings and advice tend to strike up-and-coming generations as a bit corny and over-the-top.

    Then another generation comes along and believes they can turn the mechanism off and sell it for scrap, because the fundamentals are so dead obvious that people will just naturally absorb them, without any outside reinforcement...

    And on and on, ad infinitum.

    Or as a popular Facebook meme puts it: Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.

    Unfortunately, their sincere, heartfelt warnings and advice tend to strike up-and-coming generations as a bit corny and over-the-top.

    Could you offer us some sincere, heartfelt warnings and advice?

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  157. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Jefferson
    "Roissey is pushing 50, never married, childless. He can’t provide any credible insight into how to have a healthy family or how female psychology changes once they have a child."

    It's never too late to become a father. Steve Martin did not become a dad for the first time until he was 67.

    "Roosh is Middle Eastern, in his late 30s, has never been married, is childless, has never been in a long term relationship. Probably still looking for his 18 year old Ukrainian virgin wife to be (good luck with that one)."

    His future 18 year old wife doesn't have to be Ukrainian. She can also be Brazilian, Russian, Colombian, Polish, Venezuelan, Serbian, Argentinian, or Czech for example.

    Roosh V likes South American women and Eastern European women equally. He is not really into WASP chicks though, as he doesn't think they are feminine enough.

    “Roosh V likes South American women and Eastern European women equally. He is not really into WASP chicks though, as he doesn’t think they are feminine ENOUGH.”

    From what I’ve noticed in Roosh, he is really aspiring to have a Slavic wife. He is aiming very, very high, judging from his list of desirable traits (in fact, what he’s aiming for, is usually what E.European alphas get). It’s been years since he’s been prowling in Eastern Europe and he still hasn’t managed to have even one long term relationship. All he has is these mini “relationships” (he’s fooling himself by calling those relationships) where he tricks the women into believing he has some assets or serious intentions, but it fizzles. He will soon start aging out of his prime (for males 27-42, 45 max or so).

    The problem is not just that he aims too high, but that he doesn’t KNOW how to maintain a relationship, especially with a beautiful, young female.

    Most Eastern European nationalists agree that a guy like that should be banned from entering EE.

    I think he’s chances with a light brown South American would be much higher.

    And speaking of Roissy, yes, it may not be too late for a 50 year old man to become a father (although not that advisable due to risk of mental illness), Roissy himself has said he doesn’t want kids. He probably won’t have any.

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "From what I’ve noticed in Roosh, he is really aspiring to have a Slavic wife."

    From what I noticed Roosh V is also really aspiring to have a South American wife, after all the guy wrote 3 freaking books about them (Brazil, Argentina, and Colombia.
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1456517171/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482567288&sr=8-1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=Roosh+V+Brazil
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004Q9TLCE/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482567337&sr=8-1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=Roosh+V+Argentina
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003TFENWO/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482567395&sr=8-1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=Roosh+V+Colombia
  158. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Jefferson
    "Roissey is pushing 50, never married, childless. He can’t provide any credible insight into how to have a healthy family or how female psychology changes once they have a child."

    It's never too late to become a father. Steve Martin did not become a dad for the first time until he was 67.

    "Roosh is Middle Eastern, in his late 30s, has never been married, is childless, has never been in a long term relationship. Probably still looking for his 18 year old Ukrainian virgin wife to be (good luck with that one)."

    His future 18 year old wife doesn't have to be Ukrainian. She can also be Brazilian, Russian, Colombian, Polish, Venezuelan, Serbian, Argentinian, or Czech for example.

    Roosh V likes South American women and Eastern European women equally. He is not really into WASP chicks though, as he doesn't think they are feminine enough.

    “Roosh V likes South American women and Eastern European women equally. He is not REALLY into WASP chicks though, as he doesn’t think they are feminine enough.”

    Are you really as naive as to believe that the WASP chicks (that is, non-fat, relatively attractive Western white women of Anglo or Germanic extraction) in the age bracket of 18-35 might be attracted or want to have anything romantic to do with someone like Roosh??

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    • Replies: @whorefinder

    Are you really as naive as to believe that the WASP chicks (that is, non-fat, relatively attractive Western white women of Anglo or Germanic extraction) in the age bracket of 18-35 might be attracted or want to have anything romantic to do with someone like Roosh??
     
    lol. Are you really so naive as to think Roosh's techniques wouldn't work on such chicks?
    , @Desiderius
    Sure. Some women go for the exotic. Nearly all for the confident.
  159. “Why no Roissy, Donna?”

    Because “Roissy” hides behind a pseudonym. In fact, he changed his name from “Roissy” to “Heartiste” when he got humiliated by a woman with whom he picked a needless fight.

    The whole “pick up artist” movement has lost considerable momentum when it was noticed that the sort of men who marvelously succeed at pick up artistry are the sort of men who would have done well with women anyway. The whole thing was revealed as a fraud — you had handsome, tall and good looking men teaching dweeby looking men about “game” and “female psychology,” as if knowledge of these things could raise the sexual attractiveness of the dweebs to the level of their handsome coaches.

    “Pick up artistry” was basically a promise to men who are sub-par in socio-sexual status that, through will-power, they could overcome their natural handicap with women.

    The mass shooter Eliot Rodger expressed his views on a website called “puahate.com” (now defunct) in which the sort of males who were the marks of “pick up artist” coaches gathered to complain about pua and the real nature of the sexual marketplace.

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    • Replies: @whorefinder

    The whole “pick up artist” movement has lost considerable momentum when it was noticed that the sort of men who marvelously succeed at pick up artistry are the sort of men who would have done well with women anyway.
     
    lol. I'm sorry you think being tall and attractive is all that matters in getting laid.

    May I suggest you read an try out the techniques in Bang?
  160. @Jefferson
    "PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females."

    So before the 1960s the vast majority of women who had never been married were virgins?

    The generation of young women of age between 1930-1960 were monogomous and virginal. They might have sex with their beau before marriage, or do some heavy petting, but that’s it. Women with multiple partners were limited to prostitutes or upper-class “society” girls who could (literally) afford to sleep around without the stigma hurting them.

    And yes, there have been waves throughout history of chastity and then sexual licentiousness. Ancient Rome and 1700s aristocratic France had famous times of sexual orgies. But the generation before the 1960s had chaste women who were much better marriage material than the post-1960s women.

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "The generation of young women of age between 1930-1960 were monogomous and virginal. They might have sex with their beau before marriage, or do some heavy petting, but that’s it."

    You have been duped. The controversial Kinsey Reports opened up people's eyes in the 1950's regarding the level of unreported sexual depravity of men and women.

    "But the generation before the 1960s had chaste women who were much better marriage material than the post-1960s women."

    So is that your excuse for your own sexual escapades? In other words, you COULD settle down and raise a family of white children, but the prospects are SO bad that you would rather contribute to the decline of Western Civilization with your own "pump and dump" binges.

    "Women hate PUAs because they don’t want to go to bed with James Dean and wake up with Steve Urkel."

    Those women who hate PUAs do so because PUAs lie and cheat.

    "The men who hate PUAs are the kind of white knighting cucks** (like yourself) who think modern Western women are pristine angels who have honor worth defending. You supplicate yourself like a debased knave."

    The men who hate PUAs do so because PUAs make up a subjective hierarchy, claim they are on top of it, create programs that men pay thousands of dollars for this "knowledge", and discover that what they learned does not actually apply in the "field".

    **That meme has lost its cache.

    "You clearly aren’t actually reading most PUA sites, and are just out to be angry lying Corvy again."

    All you do on those sites is talk about your score stories rather than trying to find a wife and sire white offspring. Clearly you are no "alpha male", but a man with mommy issues.
  161. @Gurney Halleck
    "Why no Roissy, Donna?"

    Because "Roissy" hides behind a pseudonym. In fact, he changed his name from "Roissy" to "Heartiste" when he got humiliated by a woman with whom he picked a needless fight.

    The whole "pick up artist" movement has lost considerable momentum when it was noticed that the sort of men who marvelously succeed at pick up artistry are the sort of men who would have done well with women anyway. The whole thing was revealed as a fraud -- you had handsome, tall and good looking men teaching dweeby looking men about "game" and "female psychology," as if knowledge of these things could raise the sexual attractiveness of the dweebs to the level of their handsome coaches.

    "Pick up artistry" was basically a promise to men who are sub-par in socio-sexual status that, through will-power, they could overcome their natural handicap with women.

    The mass shooter Eliot Rodger expressed his views on a website called "puahate.com" (now defunct) in which the sort of males who were the marks of "pick up artist" coaches gathered to complain about pua and the real nature of the sexual marketplace.

    The whole “pick up artist” movement has lost considerable momentum when it was noticed that the sort of men who marvelously succeed at pick up artistry are the sort of men who would have done well with women anyway.

    lol. I’m sorry you think being tall and attractive is all that matters in getting laid.

    May I suggest you read an try out the techniques in Bang?

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  162. @Anonymous

    "Roosh V likes South American women and Eastern European women equally. He is not REALLY into WASP chicks though, as he doesn’t think they are feminine enough."
     
    Are you really as naive as to believe that the WASP chicks (that is, non-fat, relatively attractive Western white women of Anglo or Germanic extraction) in the age bracket of 18-35 might be attracted or want to have anything romantic to do with someone like Roosh??

    Are you really as naive as to believe that the WASP chicks (that is, non-fat, relatively attractive Western white women of Anglo or Germanic extraction) in the age bracket of 18-35 might be attracted or want to have anything romantic to do with someone like Roosh??

    lol. Are you really so naive as to think Roosh’s techniques wouldn’t work on such chicks?

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  163. @CrunchybutRealistCon
    Seems on point. For many, learning PUA is more a way to get a Psychology 101 course with a focus on female attraction in an age unshackled from 50s social norms. What eludes many is that a lot of conservative minded men coming of age after 1990 were fatally ignorant that feminism had tipped the scales in terms of mate selection criteria. If one was vaguely chivalrous or an old world gentleman, it could be disastrous relative to expectations. Women don't need providers anymore, inasmuch as they want a combo of the snarling, overtly masculine Jimmy Dean/Marlon Brando archetype and someone charismatic to entertain them . If you also have a good income, smarts and other hobbies, that is fine, but keep those in reserve. They aren't calling cards of importance like they might have been in 1970. And gentlemanly habits are to be withheld as rare garnishes. Nowadays gentlemanly behavior is simply construed as needy approval seeking.

    Nowadays gentlemanly behavior is simply construed as needy approval seeking.

    Without dominance it is. With dominance, it can be dynamite.

    I mostly went with gentle dominance plus humor/even temperament. It worked.

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  164. @Corvinus
    "PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females."

    Men and women have been sleeping around before and during marriage for centuries. The sexual revolution of the 1960's only brought this phenomenon to the forefront.

    "Women, freed of the constraints of marrying the one man in her bracket and being faithful to him, flocked to sex up the top 20% of men around. The bottom 80% of men were left punching the clowns."

    So man up. Read self-help books like Gorilla Mindset and become part of the 20%. Although, I would like to know how how accurate is this 80-20 statistic. What sources prove it?

    "That’s the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement."

    No, the enmity stems from PUA's who teach men to "pump and dump" rather than be the protectors of Western Civilization.

    "Most PUAs would love a return to the chaste-monogomous-marriage-comitted women of the 1950s halycon vision..."

    Which is an absolute myth.

    " but, bitterly, have accepted that finding a good virginal coquettish woman is impossible. So they’ve resorted to getting what little pleasure can be had from the situation, by aping clownish behavior to get a woman to lie with them. A few hours of sex beats none at all."

    Not for the Christian male. Only sex during marriage. But what about yourself, Whorefinder? Why do you pay for sex and seek the comforts of slutty women? Are we suppose to believe that you desire to marry a hot virgin and have sire your own litter of white offspring, rather than troll for trim at your local watering hole?

    "MGTOW is a similar rational response by men, except these men eschew bothering with women even to get laid. PUA techniques is just wasted effort to them, since women are so hostile. Better to be alone that risk getting fooled by a woman into a sexless relationship with a shrew."

    Weaksauce. Buy Gorilla Mindset. Change your life.

    No, the enmity stems from PUA’s who teach men to “pump and dump” rather than be the protectors of Western Civilization.

    lol. nope, you’re a liar.

    Women hate PUAs because they don’t want to go to bed with James Dean and wake up with Steve Urkel.

    The men who hate PUAs are the kind of white knighting cucks (like yourself) who think modern Western women are pristine angels who have honor worth defending. You supplicate yourself like a debased knave.

    But hey, at least Mr. Brock is paying you a salary for doing it online, right?

    “Most PUAs would love a return to the chaste-monogomous-marriage-comitted women of the 1950s halycon vision…”

    Which is an absolute myth

    lol. You clearly aren’t actually reading most PUA sites, and are just out to be angry lying Corvy again.

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  165. @Anonymous

    "Roosh V likes South American women and Eastern European women equally. He is not REALLY into WASP chicks though, as he doesn’t think they are feminine enough."
     
    Are you really as naive as to believe that the WASP chicks (that is, non-fat, relatively attractive Western white women of Anglo or Germanic extraction) in the age bracket of 18-35 might be attracted or want to have anything romantic to do with someone like Roosh??

    Sure. Some women go for the exotic. Nearly all for the confident.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Sure. Some women go for the exotic. Nearly all for the confident.

     

    Seriously, dude, he's not all that desirable. And I hope you do realize that this whole PUA travel thing puts Americans in a pretty bad light.
    , @Anonymous

    Nearly all for the confident.
     
    No, they don't. I don't know what you mean by "nearly all..." but for relatively attractive women of N.European extraction, there are a few other things on the list besides "confident". Not to even mention the so called "individual chemistry".
  166. @Jefferson
    "Women have gotten mad at PUAs because they want to sleep with actual top-20% of men, not one of the 80% doing a good impression. That’s the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement."

    Female hatred for PUA comes entirely from the Left. Women who are apolitical and Right Wing women are not losing any sleep at night over PUA guys getting laid. And even on the Left it's mostly SWPL women who hate PUA guys. NAM women are extremely turned on by PUA game.

    emale hatred for PUA comes entirely from the Left. Women who are apolitical and Right Wing women are not losing any sleep at night over PUA guys getting laid. And even on the Left it’s mostly SWPL women who hate PUA guys. NAM women are extremely turned on by PUA game.

    Nah, right wing “good girls” get upset at the PUAs as well, for the exactly the same reasons. And NAM get upset as well. This isn’t a SWPL/(((white person))) limited hatred. Women don’t like the fact that men have learned some manipulation techniques in the sex game, as previously women were the sole holders of a universal right to manipulate men.

    And the media’s demonizing/lying about PUAs (especially the assault on Roosh) has furthered women into hating them.

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  167. @Jefferson
    "PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females."

    So before the 1960s the vast majority of women who had never been married were virgins?

    Most pre-marital sex was with the person they eventually married.

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Most pre-marital sex was with the person they eventually married."

    Before the 1960s most people only had sex with 1 person in their lifetime? So a 60 year old man in 1956 has only ever took 1 woman to bed in his 60 years of existence?

  168. @Corvinus
    "I didn’t discover Roissy’a blog until after I was married, but as he himself has pointed out, having game can help you strengthen your marriage or otherwise monogamous relationship. Having game or simply losing your beta tendencies greatly reduces the chances of your wife cheating on you or treating you like crap."

    Except those lurking on his blog tend to be married men looking for side action. Moreover, "beta tendencies" is another worthless meme. What a man individually thinks is "alpha" behavior, another man labels it as "beta" or "gamma". And wives cheat for a host of reasons, not squarely because they believe their husbands act other than "alpha".

    Except those lurking on his blog tend to be married men looking for side action

    .

    lol. A typical, obvious lie by Cucky Corvy. You have to do better, son!

    Moreover, “beta tendencies” is another worthless meme. What a man individually thinks is “alpha” behavior, another man labels it as “beta” or “gamma”. And wives cheat for a host of reasons, not squarely because they believe their husbands act other than “alpha”.

    The denials of a paid-shill cuck like Corvy so reek of pain and misery you’d have to have a heart of stone not to laugh at him.

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "lol. A typical, obvious lie by Cucky Corvy. You have to do better, son!"

    Guys like Anon and you are quite Cucky yourselves. You two go around spreading around the false myth that White guys aren't getting laid because Black guys are taking all of the White women. Just admit you 2 have a thing for Black men.

  169. @Corvinus
    Fag is from the mid-sixteenth century, a verb in the sense of 'grow weary'. So, you're right. I have grown weary of your juvenile antics.

    FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAG.

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  170. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Desiderius
    Sure. Some women go for the exotic. Nearly all for the confident.

    Sure. Some women go for the exotic. Nearly all for the confident.

    Seriously, dude, he’s not all that desirable. And I hope you do realize that this whole PUA travel thing puts Americans in a pretty bad light.

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  171. @Anonym
    PUA was a rational response to the loosening moral standards that the 1960s brought on for women, where sleeping around pre-marriage with many partners became the norm for far too many females.

    I think to some extent you are right. If no female is going to give it up prior to marriage, then there is not a lot of point of game, really, as far as obtaining sex.

    The problem was that the hippie-commune selling point of “free love”—hey, everyone’s gonna get laid equally—turned into the reality of hypergamy. Women, freed of the constraints of marrying the one man in her bracket and being faithful to him, flocked to sex up the top 20% of men around. The bottom 80% of men were left punching the clowns.

    Irrespective of the actual percentages, there is some truth to this. I guess every time I was going clubbing in my youth, prior to marriage I was depriving someone else of finding a mate as I sorted through the options. I am not sure exactly what would have happened 100 years before that, but I doubt that the courting process would have been instantaneous. I still would have sucked the attention from some other guy while I was at the local dance or whatever. Instead of sex there might have been some heavy petting. Condoms have been around since the 1850s btw. Celebrities were getting laid before the 1960s.

    PUA has taught part of that 80% how to look and act like the top 20% and get women to sleep with them. Women have gotten mad at PUAs because they want to sleep with actual top-20% of men, not one of the 80% doing a good impression. That’s the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement.

    Both sides have long been trying to make silk purses out of sow's ears for a long, long time. Hair dye, wigs, cosmetics, corsets, fancy clothes... this wasn't invented recently. And PUA has basically just been a sort of codified DIY version of what men have mostly learned on their own and by observation for a long, long time.

    I think women have gotten mad at PUA because they want to find someone who is earnestly looking to settle down, not someone who has studied how to press buttons of women to fairly reliably get laid without paying for it (other than say the hour preparing to go out, the travel time and fuel cost to get there, maybe to someone's house, and then get home, the cost of the drinks and entry fees, the food out, and the value of their own time which is probably 4-8 hours) instead of visiting a prostitute... and has no intention whatsoever of entertaining the idea of marriage to her.

    Keep having children until you get a daughter. It'll change your thinking. They have biological clocks, they have a finite window of attractiveness, and they have urges to have children (which practically requires a providing and protecting partner). Just having sex with a user is kind of empty for them.

    Most PUAs would love a return to the chaste-monogomous-marriage-comitted women of the 1950s halycon vision, but, bitterly, have accepted that finding a good virginal coquettish woman is impossible. So they’ve resorted to getting what little pleasure can be had from the situation, by aping clownish behavior to get a woman to lie with them. A few hours of sex beats none at all.

    Maybe so for a few. For quite a few others, they enjoy the game, the sex, the conversation, the look and feel of a never-before-sampled female body as the clothes come off, and the multiple little wins along the way.

    MGTOW is a similar rational response by men, except these men eschew bothering with women even to get laid. PUA techniques is just wasted effort to them, since women are so hostile. Better to be alone that risk getting fooled by a woman into a sexless relationship with a shrew.

    Rejection sucks, but at the end of the day giving yourself zero chance instead of 5% is just a cop out. Even if your chances are only 5%, you only have to try 20 times on average.

    they want to find someone who is earnestly looking to settle down

    But they want to have to work at it. Too earnest too fast is like a loose woman.

    Men want to find a woman who will have sex with them, but not on the first date and not without him having to work for it. The instinctive reason for this is cuckoldry prevention. If she’s easy with him, she’s likelier to be easy in general.

    Likewise women with men who want to settle down too fast. The instinctive reason here is avoiding men who give away their commitment too easily (to mistresses, for instance). Once they’re a family, his premature/unwise generosity could put her family’s resources in danger.

    Men and women who are not very socially adept can easily misinterpret this (both ways) as a lack of interest in marriage and commitment.

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    • Replies: @Anonym
    Likewise women with men who want to settle down too fast. The instinctive reason here is avoiding men who give away their commitment too easily (to mistresses, for instance). Once they’re a family, his premature/unwise generosity could put her family’s resources in danger.

    I see your logic and definitely women avoid this like the plague. However what I refer to is men who are not looking to settle down at all. In a similar category is the man who refuses to marry for 10 years but enjoys the sex the whole time. 10 years is an eternity in women's market value and reproductive years.
    , @Corvinus
    "Men want to find a woman who will have sex with them, but not on the first date and not without him having to work for it."

    Except PUAs insist that men have sex with women on the first date. Should not a man refrain from his primal urges as the supposed superior gender?

    "The instinctive reason for this is cuckoldry prevention. If she’s easy with him, she’s likelier to be easy in general."

    Congratulations, you've been thoroughly indoctrinated by Roissy. I imagine you are married, are monogamous, and have white offspring, and only visit his website to get advice about how to keep your wife "in line", right?

    "Likewise women with men who want to settle down too fast. The instinctive reason here is avoiding men who give away their commitment too easily (to mistresses, for instance)."

    In reality, women want that commitment to take shape early, it offers stability and comfort.

    "Once they’re a family, his premature/unwise generosity could put her family’s resources in danger."

    Men for themselves are able to determine whether or not their "generosity" early in the relationship is "unwise". They certainly don't need you labeling them as a "cuck" or a "gamma" because YOU feelz they are making other than smart decisions.
  172. @Anonymous
    "Roosh V likes South American women and Eastern European women equally. He is not really into WASP chicks though, as he doesn’t think they are feminine ENOUGH."

    From what I've noticed in Roosh, he is really aspiring to have a Slavic wife. He is aiming very, very high, judging from his list of desirable traits (in fact, what he's aiming for, is usually what E.European alphas get). It's been years since he's been prowling in Eastern Europe and he still hasn't managed to have even one long term relationship. All he has is these mini "relationships" (he's fooling himself by calling those relationships) where he tricks the women into believing he has some assets or serious intentions, but it fizzles. He will soon start aging out of his prime (for males 27-42, 45 max or so).

    The problem is not just that he aims too high, but that he doesn't KNOW how to maintain a relationship, especially with a beautiful, young female.

    Most Eastern European nationalists agree that a guy like that should be banned from entering EE.

    I think he's chances with a light brown South American would be much higher.

    And speaking of Roissy, yes, it may not be too late for a 50 year old man to become a father (although not that advisable due to risk of mental illness), Roissy himself has said he doesn't want kids. He probably won't have any.

    “From what I’ve noticed in Roosh, he is really aspiring to have a Slavic wife.”

    From what I noticed Roosh V is also really aspiring to have a South American wife, after all the guy wrote 3 freaking books about them (Brazil, Argentina, and Colombia.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1456517171/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482567288&sr=8-1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=Roosh+V+Brazil

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004Q9TLCE/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482567337&sr=8-1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=Roosh+V+Argentina

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003TFENWO/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482567395&sr=8-1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=Roosh+V+Colombia

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What are you running ads for him? Yes, he wrote those "books" on how to "bang" women (those were not "how to find a decent wife" manuals). But he said he wants a wife / LTR who is his shade or lighter. Because he is Armenian / Iranian, a Slavic girl is an upgrade which he fails to realize or is in denial about. Thus him aiming for a Slavic 8 is like a tall white guy aiming for a white 9. But he doesn't get it. So no relationship. He'll be pushing 40 s00n. Where is his LTR? There have been none. That just means he's infantile.

    By the way, Armenians (in Armenia) don't take that kind of crap - they are pretty conservative.

  173. @Desiderius
    Most pre-marital sex was with the person they eventually married.

    “Most pre-marital sex was with the person they eventually married.”

    Before the 1960s most people only had sex with 1 person in their lifetime? So a 60 year old man in 1956 has only ever took 1 woman to bed in his 60 years of existence?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Women are the relevant category here.

    Feminists wept.
  174. @Desiderius

    they want to find someone who is earnestly looking to settle down
     
    But they want to have to work at it. Too earnest too fast is like a loose woman.

    Men want to find a woman who will have sex with them, but not on the first date and not without him having to work for it. The instinctive reason for this is cuckoldry prevention. If she's easy with him, she's likelier to be easy in general.

    Likewise women with men who want to settle down too fast. The instinctive reason here is avoiding men who give away their commitment too easily (to mistresses, for instance). Once they're a family, his premature/unwise generosity could put her family's resources in danger.

    Men and women who are not very socially adept can easily misinterpret this (both ways) as a lack of interest in marriage and commitment.

    Likewise women with men who want to settle down too fast. The instinctive reason here is avoiding men who give away their commitment too easily (to mistresses, for instance). Once they’re a family, his premature/unwise generosity could put her family’s resources in danger.

    I see your logic and definitely women avoid this like the plague. However what I refer to is men who are not looking to settle down at all. In a similar category is the man who refuses to marry for 10 years but enjoys the sex the whole time. 10 years is an eternity in women’s market value and reproductive years.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Yeah, I know. That comment was directed at the men who would like to start a family themselves but are having trouble getting any takers among women who supposedly (and in fact do) want to do so as well. Appearances can be deceiving for such men.
  175. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Desiderius
    Sure. Some women go for the exotic. Nearly all for the confident.

    Nearly all for the confident.

    No, they don’t. I don’t know what you mean by “nearly all…” but for relatively attractive women of N.European extraction, there are a few other things on the list besides “confident”. Not to even mention the so called “individual chemistry”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    I mean that confidence is a minimal criteria for nearly all women, and it is. Depending on the part of the country, there are a lot of men who don't project confidence and thus disqualify themselves immediately. Roosh isn't competing with some ideal, he's competing with the competition.
  176. @whorefinder

    Except those lurking on his blog tend to be married men looking for side action
     
    .

    lol. A typical, obvious lie by Cucky Corvy. You have to do better, son!


    Moreover, “beta tendencies” is another worthless meme. What a man individually thinks is “alpha” behavior, another man labels it as “beta” or “gamma”. And wives cheat for a host of reasons, not squarely because they believe their husbands act other than “alpha”.
     
    The denials of a paid-shill cuck like Corvy so reek of pain and misery you'd have to have a heart of stone not to laugh at him.

    “lol. A typical, obvious lie by Cucky Corvy. You have to do better, son!”

    Guys like Anon and you are quite Cucky yourselves. You two go around spreading around the false myth that White guys aren’t getting laid because Black guys are taking all of the White women. Just admit you 2 have a thing for Black men.

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    • Replies: @whorefinder
    rofl. now you're just being delusional. Projection much?
  177. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Jefferson
    "From what I’ve noticed in Roosh, he is really aspiring to have a Slavic wife."

    From what I noticed Roosh V is also really aspiring to have a South American wife, after all the guy wrote 3 freaking books about them (Brazil, Argentina, and Colombia.
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1456517171/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482567288&sr=8-1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=Roosh+V+Brazil
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004Q9TLCE/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482567337&sr=8-1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=Roosh+V+Argentina
    https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B003TFENWO/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482567395&sr=8-1&pi=SL75_QL70&keywords=Roosh+V+Colombia

    What are you running ads for him? Yes, he wrote those “books” on how to “bang” women (those were not “how to find a decent wife” manuals). But he said he wants a wife / LTR who is his shade or lighter. Because he is Armenian / Iranian, a Slavic girl is an upgrade which he fails to realize or is in denial about. Thus him aiming for a Slavic 8 is like a tall white guy aiming for a white 9. But he doesn’t get it. So no relationship. He’ll be pushing 40 s00n. Where is his LTR? There have been none. That just means he’s infantile.

    By the way, Armenians (in Armenia) don’t take that kind of crap – they are pretty conservative.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonguy

    That just means he’s infantile.
     
    As well as an evolutionary dead end.

    Why anyone would hitch one's wagon to PUA-istry mystifies me. Just go out, do your best in the world, keep HWP, be a good conversationalist/socially adept and the whole woman thing takes care of itself.

    There ya go, better advice than in a year of Roissy blog posts, who is wut, another evolutionary dead-end according to this thread?

    PUA looks like a fool's errand more and more... That being said, I enjoy reading the material from time to time, but it is all cargo-cultism in the end.

  178. @Corvinus
    "Its just that they knew their place back then and weren’t out of control as they are now."

    No, that's what you were taught on reruns of Leave It To Beaver. Women were out of control then and now. It just wasn't publicized.

    "And sluts were shamed instead of celebrated."

    That's the work of white men who promote porn and PUA. Blame and shame them.

    Corvinus, you’re such a contrarian! Do you seriously believe women 60 years ago could afford to sport tattoos, dress like whores and sleep around with no consequences?
    The shaming of sluts was mostly done by women BTW.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Corvinus, you’re such a contrarian! Do you seriously believe women 60 years ago could afford to sport tattoos, dress like whores and sleep around with no consequences?"

    Tattoos was something sailors and gay guys sported back in the day.

    You forget that the 1920's flappers style, which became popular, was synonymous with promiscuity. Women's fashions of the 1950s reflected a new feeling for casual attire, which was considered scandalous for the time period. In the 1960's, Mary Quant changed the way women dressed forever by trumpeting the mini skirt, which was also deemed "out of bounds".

    The shaming of sluts "back in the day" was a combined effort of parents and the community, if and when their behavior became public knowledge.

  179. @Anonymous
    What are you running ads for him? Yes, he wrote those "books" on how to "bang" women (those were not "how to find a decent wife" manuals). But he said he wants a wife / LTR who is his shade or lighter. Because he is Armenian / Iranian, a Slavic girl is an upgrade which he fails to realize or is in denial about. Thus him aiming for a Slavic 8 is like a tall white guy aiming for a white 9. But he doesn't get it. So no relationship. He'll be pushing 40 s00n. Where is his LTR? There have been none. That just means he's infantile.

    By the way, Armenians (in Armenia) don't take that kind of crap - they are pretty conservative.

    That just means he’s infantile.

    As well as an evolutionary dead end.

    Why anyone would hitch one’s wagon to PUA-istry mystifies me. Just go out, do your best in the world, keep HWP, be a good conversationalist/socially adept and the whole woman thing takes care of itself.

    There ya go, better advice than in a year of Roissy blog posts, who is wut, another evolutionary dead-end according to this thread?

    PUA looks like a fool’s errand more and more… That being said, I enjoy reading the material from time to time, but it is all cargo-cultism in the end.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Just go out, do your best in the world, keep HWP

    What is HWP?
  180. @Anonymous

    Nearly all for the confident.
     
    No, they don't. I don't know what you mean by "nearly all..." but for relatively attractive women of N.European extraction, there are a few other things on the list besides "confident". Not to even mention the so called "individual chemistry".

    I mean that confidence is a minimal criteria for nearly all women, and it is. Depending on the part of the country, there are a lot of men who don’t project confidence and thus disqualify themselves immediately. Roosh isn’t competing with some ideal, he’s competing with the competition.

    Read More
  181. @Anonym
    Likewise women with men who want to settle down too fast. The instinctive reason here is avoiding men who give away their commitment too easily (to mistresses, for instance). Once they’re a family, his premature/unwise generosity could put her family’s resources in danger.

    I see your logic and definitely women avoid this like the plague. However what I refer to is men who are not looking to settle down at all. In a similar category is the man who refuses to marry for 10 years but enjoys the sex the whole time. 10 years is an eternity in women's market value and reproductive years.

    Yeah, I know. That comment was directed at the men who would like to start a family themselves but are having trouble getting any takers among women who supposedly (and in fact do) want to do so as well. Appearances can be deceiving for such men.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonym
    Yeah, I know. That comment was directed at the men who would like to start a family themselves but are having trouble getting any takers among women who supposedly (and in fact do) want to do so as well. Appearances can be deceiving for such men.

    Yes, it's counterintuitive to us natural spergs but sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards. It's one of those 'don't hate the player hate the game' situations. It's just the way it is.
  182. @Jefferson
    "Most pre-marital sex was with the person they eventually married."

    Before the 1960s most people only had sex with 1 person in their lifetime? So a 60 year old man in 1956 has only ever took 1 woman to bed in his 60 years of existence?

    Women are the relevant category here.

    Feminists wept.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JSM
    Well, since it's a practically universal guy thing to boast about all the notches in their belt, then either there were a coupla gals who *really* got around, or the guys were lying about their prowess, or all the women were lying about their virtue, or both.
  183. @Jefferson
    "In simpler terms women pose no physical threat to men, while men pose a very serious physical threat to women."

    According to Hollywood, women pose an extreme physical threat to men. Hence why Jennifer Aniston for example can single-handedly beat up 2 Russian gangsters with her bare hands in the film Office Christmas Party.

    "To a man, an unwanted sexual advance from a woman is at worst annoying. To a woman, an unwanted advance, especially in isolated or unfamiliar surroundings, is often a terrifying experience because there’s always [to her] the implicit possibility of being beaten and/or raped if she refuses."

    A woman who automatically assumes any guy who approaches her wants to rape her, beat her, or murder her must live in an extremely vibrantly diverse part of The U.S. After all there have been studies have shown vibrant diversity causes more distrust of strangers. These women who believe every man is a potential OJ Simpson in the making definitely does not live in a Whitopia.

    The reason why an unwanted approach poses a threat to a woman is mostly in her self-image: “How could that loser think that I would be interested in him?”

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  184. @Desiderius
    Yeah, I know. That comment was directed at the men who would like to start a family themselves but are having trouble getting any takers among women who supposedly (and in fact do) want to do so as well. Appearances can be deceiving for such men.

    Yeah, I know. That comment was directed at the men who would like to start a family themselves but are having trouble getting any takers among women who supposedly (and in fact do) want to do so as well. Appearances can be deceiving for such men.

    Yes, it’s counterintuitive to us natural spergs but sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards. It’s one of those ‘don’t hate the player hate the game’ situations. It’s just the way it is.

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  185. @Daniel Chieh
    Out of curiousity, how does Heartiste have a whois without immediately betraying his real name?

    Don’t go into money laundering if you have to ask questions like that. Do wordpress hosted sites even have whois data?

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  186. @Corvinus
    "C’mon, you guys, I mean, what kind of man cares about a woman’s looks. You must secretly be gay."

    You are working overtime for that CH merit badge. Of course guys care about the looks of a woman...they are dating and/or married to.

    Again, of what concern is it of YOURS to be so enamored with the mating choice of another man?

    A black crow with no care for universal truth. Huh.

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  187. @Opinionator
    Why is the topic so popular?

    Some iStevers care about golf courses, some don’t. Some iStevers care about sports, some don’t. Some iStevers care about the Donmeh, some don’t. Some iStevers care about Jews (one way or the other), some don’t.

    But every man wants to get laid, or remembers when he did.

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  188. @neutral
    Roosh looks like an Arab, so while those macho Arab types think they are Gods gift to women, there is a reason they don't tend become leading men in movies or the darlings of boy bands.

    Fun fact: never call an Iranian an Arab. It’s like Japanese and Chinese. We can’t tell them apart, but they’ve got a long and bloody history, and they hate each other.

    Iranians in particular are proud of their long history (they were the Persians going after us at Thermopylae) and that they actually had culture before Islam. They have books and books of densely allusive poetry it might be fun to read if you had an extra lifetime to learn the language and all the references.

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  189. @Scott Locklin
    I think it's becoming obvious Miz Zuckerberg doesn't really care about the classics or the Turkish-American-Nazi-Sexist hordes; she just has a weird attention crush on PUA types. She's trying to play it out in the usual ways feminist types who are afflicted with this illness do, but I think she's about 5 years too late to the party. Her readership would probably be counted in the dozens if she weren't concern trolling various alt-right/PUA factions.

    Her readership would probably be counted in the dozens if she weren’t concern trolling various alt-right/PUA factions.

    I think you have hit the nail on the head. It’s hard not to have an inferiority complex (especially if you are a feminist and believe women are supposed to achieve things outside the home) when your brother invented Facebook and is now a famous billionaire. So the lady plugs away in obscurity and–here comes a fight with PUAs, one of the designated feminist villains. Piss them off, get attention, get noticed.

    She might even be trying to leverage it into an eventual writing gig–she can write think pieces for Slate or some similar site about feminism and classics.

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    • Replies: @JSM
    when your brother invented Facebook

    *uckerberg did *not* invent Facebook. He stole the idea from the Winklevoss twins when they hired him to write the software for it.
  190. @Tracy
    Call me a romantic, but anyone who chooses a mate primarily because of looks is stupid, and pushing that phenomenon as the mark of Right Behavior ignores the fact that, often, to one who's in love, the less stereotypically physically attractive things about a person can come to be the things that are most beloved. Norms are norms and always will be. What most people consider beautiful or handsome is rooted in biology and sociological forces. But still, when a guy meets a girl and is hit by the thunderbolt, her not-so-straight teeth can come to be one of the main things that he finds charming about her. A woman in love will find her husband's bald spot endearingly kissable. Doesn't mean that either one goes stupid and doesn't recognize that crooked teeth and bald spots won't win a person modelling contracts, but it is what it is, and love is love.

    All that aside, I really hate the dissing of people because of physical features they can't change. Even when it comes to Hillary -- whom I despise -- and her "cankles." It's bullying, 2nd grade behavior, and I don't like it even if it comes from people I otherwise agree with politically. Our side is supposed to be -- or should be anyway -- better than that crap. Leave the baby tactics to the babies liberals.

    But still, when a guy meets a girl and is hit by the thunderbolt, her not-so-straight teeth can come to be one of the main things that he finds charming about her.

    I think that can be filed in the loose drawer labeled “fetishization”.

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    • Replies: @Tracy
    So cynical, man. And not true. I know a man who didn't care anything about big boobs until he fell in love with a woman who has them, and a woman who never thought twice about the male butt and thighs until she fell in love with a man with a great set of them. IOW, you're thinking backwards relative to what I'm saying.
  191. @whorefinder
    The generation of young women of age between 1930-1960 were monogomous and virginal. They might have sex with their beau before marriage, or do some heavy petting, but that's it. Women with multiple partners were limited to prostitutes or upper-class "society" girls who could (literally) afford to sleep around without the stigma hurting them.

    And yes, there have been waves throughout history of chastity and then sexual licentiousness. Ancient Rome and 1700s aristocratic France had famous times of sexual orgies. But the generation before the 1960s had chaste women who were much better marriage material than the post-1960s women.

    “The generation of young women of age between 1930-1960 were monogomous and virginal. They might have sex with their beau before marriage, or do some heavy petting, but that’s it.”

    You have been duped. The controversial Kinsey Reports opened up people’s eyes in the 1950′s regarding the level of unreported sexual depravity of men and women.

    “But the generation before the 1960s had chaste women who were much better marriage material than the post-1960s women.”

    So is that your excuse for your own sexual escapades? In other words, you COULD settle down and raise a family of white children, but the prospects are SO bad that you would rather contribute to the decline of Western Civilization with your own “pump and dump” binges.

    “Women hate PUAs because they don’t want to go to bed with James Dean and wake up with Steve Urkel.”

    Those women who hate PUAs do so because PUAs lie and cheat.

    “The men who hate PUAs are the kind of white knighting cucks** (like yourself) who think modern Western women are pristine angels who have honor worth defending. You supplicate yourself like a debased knave.”

    The men who hate PUAs do so because PUAs make up a subjective hierarchy, claim they are on top of it, create programs that men pay thousands of dollars for this “knowledge”, and discover that what they learned does not actually apply in the “field”.

    **That meme has lost its cache.

    “You clearly aren’t actually reading most PUA sites, and are just out to be angry lying Corvy again.”

    All you do on those sites is talk about your score stories rather than trying to find a wife and sire white offspring. Clearly you are no “alpha male”, but a man with mommy issues.

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    • Replies: @Ivy
    I tried clearing my cache of memes but they keep reappearing. My software game needs cachet.
  192. @Desiderius

    they want to find someone who is earnestly looking to settle down
     
    But they want to have to work at it. Too earnest too fast is like a loose woman.

    Men want to find a woman who will have sex with them, but not on the first date and not without him having to work for it. The instinctive reason for this is cuckoldry prevention. If she's easy with him, she's likelier to be easy in general.

    Likewise women with men who want to settle down too fast. The instinctive reason here is avoiding men who give away their commitment too easily (to mistresses, for instance). Once they're a family, his premature/unwise generosity could put her family's resources in danger.

    Men and women who are not very socially adept can easily misinterpret this (both ways) as a lack of interest in marriage and commitment.

    “Men want to find a woman who will have sex with them, but not on the first date and not without him having to work for it.”

    Except PUAs insist that men have sex with women on the first date. Should not a man refrain from his primal urges as the supposed superior gender?

    “The instinctive reason for this is cuckoldry prevention. If she’s easy with him, she’s likelier to be easy in general.”

    Congratulations, you’ve been thoroughly indoctrinated by Roissy. I imagine you are married, are monogamous, and have white offspring, and only visit his website to get advice about how to keep your wife “in line”, right?

    “Likewise women with men who want to settle down too fast. The instinctive reason here is avoiding men who give away their commitment too easily (to mistresses, for instance).”

    In reality, women want that commitment to take shape early, it offers stability and comfort.

    “Once they’re a family, his premature/unwise generosity could put her family’s resources in danger.”

    Men for themselves are able to determine whether or not their “generosity” early in the relationship is “unwise”. They certainly don’t need you labeling them as a “cuck” or a “gamma” because YOU feelz they are making other than smart decisions.

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  193. @BB753
    Corvinus, you're such a contrarian! Do you seriously believe women 60 years ago could afford to sport tattoos, dress like whores and sleep around with no consequences?
    The shaming of sluts was mostly done by women BTW.

    “Corvinus, you’re such a contrarian! Do you seriously believe women 60 years ago could afford to sport tattoos, dress like whores and sleep around with no consequences?”

    Tattoos was something sailors and gay guys sported back in the day.

    You forget that the 1920′s flappers style, which became popular, was synonymous with promiscuity. Women’s fashions of the 1950s reflected a new feeling for casual attire, which was considered scandalous for the time period. In the 1960′s, Mary Quant changed the way women dressed forever by trumpeting the mini skirt, which was also deemed “out of bounds”.

    The shaming of sluts “back in the day” was a combined effort of parents and the community, if and when their behavior became public knowledge.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    I see now this long thread. It would be interesting to see any scholarly backup for these opinions, outside of anecdotal evidence (your great uncles and their bobby soxers.)

    From my own family anecdotes, the bar for promiscuity was a bit higher in the old days (100 years ago or more). This was because intercourse carried two risks that are much less today: disease, particularly incurable venereal disease, and pregnancy. The risks for these have declined greatly in the past 50 or so years, with inevitable lowering of the bar.

    Moreover, back in the day -- up to about the '60's -- fornication was tied to marriage, and, yes, having children. That's also not an issue now.

    It's silly to say that, because there were promiscuous women in the past (read: women who have sexual intercourse with few inhibitions) the current range of promiscuity is just an extension of that. There has been a definite change in this area. Otherwise, films like "Where the Boys Are" or "Sterile Cuckoo" or "The Apartment" would never have been made.

    As to who enforces standards, I'd say from my experience that women are much more likely to condemn other women in the sexual-man gaining sweepstakes (e.g., Jackie accusing one of her girlfriends of being infected with syphilis). Men on the other hand usually derogate women who won't sleep with them, which is kind of an unfair expectation, in the old days they would have been expected to have some strings attached.

    From what I have seen of my children's generation -- Millenials -- they start engaging in sexual intercourse on the average much earlier than my generation -- Boomers -- that is, seventh or eighth grade -- the problem is that for the college ones they aren't pairing off until the late '20's or even into their '30's, and even then are not financially able to have children responsibly. Whereas the high school ones are pairing off relatively early and are also rarely having children, and are often forestalling marriage (living together for 5-10 years). The late pairings have to deal with a lot of cynicism because by that age everyone has had multiple partners, and so there is a disillusionment factor to be dealt with.

    As to the fashions associated with women today, as opposed to yesterday, not sure what to say there. The Flappers were notoriously flat, but girls in the '40's were very "leggy", the ones in the '50's were much more display models (if I can put it that way) and well into the '60's. You rarely see a good looking woman in a skirt and heels anymore. Speaking as an old white guy, the fact that women always wear jeans, are frequently overweight, and also put tatts and hardware all over their bodies is not something arousing, but then, I am out of the baby making business so it really doesn't matter. Except to say that the young men I know from the Millenial generation don't find that attractive, either. I gather it's a class thing more than anything else.
  194. @anonguy

    That just means he’s infantile.
     
    As well as an evolutionary dead end.

    Why anyone would hitch one's wagon to PUA-istry mystifies me. Just go out, do your best in the world, keep HWP, be a good conversationalist/socially adept and the whole woman thing takes care of itself.

    There ya go, better advice than in a year of Roissy blog posts, who is wut, another evolutionary dead-end according to this thread?

    PUA looks like a fool's errand more and more... That being said, I enjoy reading the material from time to time, but it is all cargo-cultism in the end.

    Just go out, do your best in the world, keep HWP

    What is HWP?

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    • Replies: @anon
    Hating White People?

    Hitting Wide Pitches?

    Hamming While Posturing?

    More seasonally, a Holiday Wine Party?
    Happy Christmas!

  195. @Corvinus
    "Donna is complaining about females’ hard wired preference for mating with men who will father a womanising son to spread the mother’s genes far and wide (AKA the sexy son hypothesis)."

    I never heard of this hypothesis. Is this something you completely made up or is there research on this phenomenon? Please enlighten us.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexy_son_hypothesis

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/dating-and-mating/201607/why-some-women-are-attracted-the-least-available-men
    Regardless of the actual physical attractiveness of the men, women tend to rate men as more appealing when they are dating an attractive female partner (Waynforth, 2007; Yorzinski and Platt, 2010). However, this same research finds that the reverse is also true: Men are perceived as less appealing when they date an unattractive female partner.

    Donald Trump always knew it.

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    • Replies: @Brutusale
    Very true. Dating/marrying a beautiful woman gets you the membership card to the Hot Woman's Club. I don't read the PUA stuff much, but I remember a bit about having a relationship with a hot girl means you've been "shit tested" and passed.

    Just by looks alone, my girlfriend is way too hot to be with portly powerlifter me. Like Jessica Rabbit felt about Roger, though, she'll tell you the things that she wants in a man that I bring to the relationship: intelligence, a sense of humor and confidence. If the PUA publications encourage guys to work on developing these traits, more power to them.
  196. @Negrolphin Pool
    Don't go into money laundering if you have to ask questions like that. Do wordpress hosted sites even have whois data?

    Ah, wordpress. That explains a lot.

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  197. @Opinionator
    What are the things you have come to understand?

    That most women fantasize and appreciate appreciate dominant behaviors from men. Taken to its extreme, it can get pretty silly but understanding that urge to feel dominated vastly improved my ability to interact with women. It hasn’t solved all my problems, but it certainly has increased the amount of female company I get. Given that I was pretty much a shut-in before that, its been pretty cool.

    As far as I see it, PUA is just a marketing manual with a specific “customer base.” Its very similar, in many ways, to marketing and persuasion science that I worked with in my degree program. Mind you, marketing was seen as a kind of black science once too. People tend to dislike anything that disturbs their fantasies of being above-average, fully independent, mentally free demigods.

    I think the mistake that people can take from perspectives is that by understanding one aspect of women, men or whatever, they then try to broadly apply it. For example, the Stanford experiment teaches us a lot about the human need for conformity, but to try to explain every human behavior in terms of conformity, its not as meaningful. Same goes for the male need for respect, but it can’t be used to explain all masculine behavior. Distinctive female needs and behaviors exist, and are biological in origin, but can’t be used to explain everything and by itself, do not cause the end of Western Civilization or something like that.

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  198. @Corvinus
    "The generation of young women of age between 1930-1960 were monogomous and virginal. They might have sex with their beau before marriage, or do some heavy petting, but that’s it."

    You have been duped. The controversial Kinsey Reports opened up people's eyes in the 1950's regarding the level of unreported sexual depravity of men and women.

    "But the generation before the 1960s had chaste women who were much better marriage material than the post-1960s women."

    So is that your excuse for your own sexual escapades? In other words, you COULD settle down and raise a family of white children, but the prospects are SO bad that you would rather contribute to the decline of Western Civilization with your own "pump and dump" binges.

    "Women hate PUAs because they don’t want to go to bed with James Dean and wake up with Steve Urkel."

    Those women who hate PUAs do so because PUAs lie and cheat.

    "The men who hate PUAs are the kind of white knighting cucks** (like yourself) who think modern Western women are pristine angels who have honor worth defending. You supplicate yourself like a debased knave."

    The men who hate PUAs do so because PUAs make up a subjective hierarchy, claim they are on top of it, create programs that men pay thousands of dollars for this "knowledge", and discover that what they learned does not actually apply in the "field".

    **That meme has lost its cache.

    "You clearly aren’t actually reading most PUA sites, and are just out to be angry lying Corvy again."

    All you do on those sites is talk about your score stories rather than trying to find a wife and sire white offspring. Clearly you are no "alpha male", but a man with mommy issues.

    I tried clearing my cache of memes but they keep reappearing. My software game needs cachet.

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  199. @Corvinus
    "Corvinus, you’re such a contrarian! Do you seriously believe women 60 years ago could afford to sport tattoos, dress like whores and sleep around with no consequences?"

    Tattoos was something sailors and gay guys sported back in the day.

    You forget that the 1920's flappers style, which became popular, was synonymous with promiscuity. Women's fashions of the 1950s reflected a new feeling for casual attire, which was considered scandalous for the time period. In the 1960's, Mary Quant changed the way women dressed forever by trumpeting the mini skirt, which was also deemed "out of bounds".

    The shaming of sluts "back in the day" was a combined effort of parents and the community, if and when their behavior became public knowledge.

    I see now this long thread. It would be interesting to see any scholarly backup for these opinions, outside of anecdotal evidence (your great uncles and their bobby soxers.)

    From my own family anecdotes, the bar for promiscuity was a bit higher in the old days (100 years ago or more). This was because intercourse carried two risks that are much less today: disease, particularly incurable venereal disease, and pregnancy. The risks for these have declined greatly in the past 50 or so years, with inevitable lowering of the bar.

    Moreover, back in the day — up to about the ’60′s — fornication was tied to marriage, and, yes, having children. That’s also not an issue now.

    It’s silly to say that, because there were promiscuous women in the past (read: women who have sexual intercourse with few inhibitions) the current range of promiscuity is just an extension of that. There has been a definite change in this area. Otherwise, films like “Where the Boys Are” or “Sterile Cuckoo” or “The Apartment” would never have been made.

    As to who enforces standards, I’d say from my experience that women are much more likely to condemn other women in the sexual-man gaining sweepstakes (e.g., Jackie accusing one of her girlfriends of being infected with syphilis). Men on the other hand usually derogate women who won’t sleep with them, which is kind of an unfair expectation, in the old days they would have been expected to have some strings attached.

    From what I have seen of my children’s generation — Millenials — they start engaging in sexual intercourse on the average much earlier than my generation — Boomers — that is, seventh or eighth grade — the problem is that for the college ones they aren’t pairing off until the late ’20′s or even into their ’30′s, and even then are not financially able to have children responsibly. Whereas the high school ones are pairing off relatively early and are also rarely having children, and are often forestalling marriage (living together for 5-10 years). The late pairings have to deal with a lot of cynicism because by that age everyone has had multiple partners, and so there is a disillusionment factor to be dealt with.

    As to the fashions associated with women today, as opposed to yesterday, not sure what to say there. The Flappers were notoriously flat, but girls in the ’40′s were very “leggy”, the ones in the ’50′s were much more display models (if I can put it that way) and well into the ’60′s. You rarely see a good looking woman in a skirt and heels anymore. Speaking as an old white guy, the fact that women always wear jeans, are frequently overweight, and also put tatts and hardware all over their bodies is not something arousing, but then, I am out of the baby making business so it really doesn’t matter. Except to say that the young men I know from the Millenial generation don’t find that attractive, either. I gather it’s a class thing more than anything else.

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    • Agree: BB753, Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I only need to go back to 2005 or so, when I was actually working with female-dominated groups(long story) to see how wild things have changed. While some of the ideas that dominate mainstream feminism existed then, for much of it, traditional ideas were very accepted. I had a girl was both a feminist and bragged about having "chastity vows"; there seemed to an argument at the time between pro-feminity feminists who argued for women-only spaces at the time, and andogynous feminists who argued for essentially, identical form and function, which were unusually dominated by lesbians.

    Unfortunately, the latter seemed to have won.

    I do think some of the inevitable failures to come will be interesting, though. Since I was living in a much more encapsulated version of that then, I saw the inevitable conclusion of the feminist concepts of "affirmative consent." In that community, it eventually led to an impossibility to do anything - since everyone insisted on consenting to anything bad that happened to this. This led to the leadership of women insisting on a new concept of "implied consent" which was hilariously rapey.

    This should be interesting how it works out in life.
  200. @Oleaginous Outrager

    reflects well on the entire movement and gives it intellectual credibility
     
    Of course, she and her herd of "real classicists" would never stoop to such a disreputable act as usurping the success of others (including relatives) to give a gloss of undeserved accomplishment to their own sad, hollow lives.

    Dad still works as a dentist.

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  201. @Daniel H
    If Zuckerberg's brother had learned some game, this man, one of the richest men in the world, maybe wouldn't have ended up married to a peevish, career oriented Chinese (reminiscent of Ellen Pao) who is likely to give him only one child, bossing him around relentlessly.

    Beta is as Beta does.

    I hate Zucky’s politics, but I can see why he would prefer a Harvard graduate to a model. Smart men like smart women.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The various Zuckerbergs so far seem like models in how not to let sudden wealth ruin your life.
    , @Sean
    Jewish men-Asian women hook-ups are almost de rigueur at Harvard. Perhaps that is another reason for the quota .
    , @syonredux
    Should have gone for a beautiful White woman who's into smart guys:

    Kristin Clotilde Darnell (born as Kristin Clotilde Holby; 1951 in Oslo, Norway) is an American actress and model.
    Born in Oslo, Norway, Holby grew up in Larchmont, New York and attended Murray Avenue School and Mamaroneck High School. Later she took courses in apparel design at Rhode Island School of Design and started working as a fabric designer for a textile company.
    Known as Clotilde, Darnell became a successful model for various couture houses, including Yves St. Laurent, Ralph Lauren, Givenchy and Chanel. She also appeared in fashion and cosmetic advertising on TV and in print.[1]
    She played Dan Aykroyd's fiancée Penelope in the 1983 film Trading Places and had a supporting role in 1986's Manhunter.
    Darnell is mother to three children, through her marriage to physicist Sebastian White. They married in March 1984.[2] In the early 90s, she retired from modeling and relocated to Larchmont, New York, where she met her current husband, James Edwin Darnell, Jr., Vincent Astor Professor Emeritus of Biology at Rockefeller University.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristin_Darnell


    Quite beautiful:

    http://andrewritchieblog.blogspot.com/2012/08/clotilde-for-ralph-lauren-1981-1983.html
  202. @SPMoore8
    I see now this long thread. It would be interesting to see any scholarly backup for these opinions, outside of anecdotal evidence (your great uncles and their bobby soxers.)

    From my own family anecdotes, the bar for promiscuity was a bit higher in the old days (100 years ago or more). This was because intercourse carried two risks that are much less today: disease, particularly incurable venereal disease, and pregnancy. The risks for these have declined greatly in the past 50 or so years, with inevitable lowering of the bar.

    Moreover, back in the day -- up to about the '60's -- fornication was tied to marriage, and, yes, having children. That's also not an issue now.

    It's silly to say that, because there were promiscuous women in the past (read: women who have sexual intercourse with few inhibitions) the current range of promiscuity is just an extension of that. There has been a definite change in this area. Otherwise, films like "Where the Boys Are" or "Sterile Cuckoo" or "The Apartment" would never have been made.

    As to who enforces standards, I'd say from my experience that women are much more likely to condemn other women in the sexual-man gaining sweepstakes (e.g., Jackie accusing one of her girlfriends of being infected with syphilis). Men on the other hand usually derogate women who won't sleep with them, which is kind of an unfair expectation, in the old days they would have been expected to have some strings attached.

    From what I have seen of my children's generation -- Millenials -- they start engaging in sexual intercourse on the average much earlier than my generation -- Boomers -- that is, seventh or eighth grade -- the problem is that for the college ones they aren't pairing off until the late '20's or even into their '30's, and even then are not financially able to have children responsibly. Whereas the high school ones are pairing off relatively early and are also rarely having children, and are often forestalling marriage (living together for 5-10 years). The late pairings have to deal with a lot of cynicism because by that age everyone has had multiple partners, and so there is a disillusionment factor to be dealt with.

    As to the fashions associated with women today, as opposed to yesterday, not sure what to say there. The Flappers were notoriously flat, but girls in the '40's were very "leggy", the ones in the '50's were much more display models (if I can put it that way) and well into the '60's. You rarely see a good looking woman in a skirt and heels anymore. Speaking as an old white guy, the fact that women always wear jeans, are frequently overweight, and also put tatts and hardware all over their bodies is not something arousing, but then, I am out of the baby making business so it really doesn't matter. Except to say that the young men I know from the Millenial generation don't find that attractive, either. I gather it's a class thing more than anything else.

    I only need to go back to 2005 or so, when I was actually working with female-dominated groups(long story) to see how wild things have changed. While some of the ideas that dominate mainstream feminism existed then, for much of it, traditional ideas were very accepted. I had a girl was both a feminist and bragged about having “chastity vows”; there seemed to an argument at the time between pro-feminity feminists who argued for women-only spaces at the time, and andogynous feminists who argued for essentially, identical form and function, which were unusually dominated by lesbians.

    Unfortunately, the latter seemed to have won.

    I do think some of the inevitable failures to come will be interesting, though. Since I was living in a much more encapsulated version of that then, I saw the inevitable conclusion of the feminist concepts of “affirmative consent.” In that community, it eventually led to an impossibility to do anything – since everyone insisted on consenting to anything bad that happened to this. This led to the leadership of women insisting on a new concept of “implied consent” which was hilariously rapey.

    This should be interesting how it works out in life.

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    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    I think the biological fact is that, contrary to what everyone says, women are not as randy as men and furthermore once they couple with someone they prefer to keep it that way so as to conjure all of the implications of guilt, responsibility, loyalty, devotion, and commitment that are essential not only for family formation but also for the long haul.

    However, since modern feminism has taken all the gloves off for men, in terms of restricting their conduct, women have to fall back on other expedients if they don't want to sleep around. This includes religion and chastity vows, fears over the latest STD to hit the headlines (including PID and associated cancers, and of course, AIDS/HIV), and/or self-identifying as lesbian or questioning, etc. until of course they meet the "right guy."

    However, to be consistent, as a man, I have to say that I much prefer monogamous relationships anyway, and if I had had my druthers I would have stayed with one or two gals I was prepared to make a commitment to in my young adulthood. It saddens me somewhat that men seem to stay locked into this teenage-young manhood groove where "conquests" actually mean something, when, actually, they don't. What you want is someone who's a good companion, puts up with your nonsense, and is a generous lover and mother for your children. There's no point in multiplying that base. If you have so much psychic/physical/intellectual energy left over, you should be writing books or inventing stuff. Not trying to get into yet another woman's pants.

    However, there's always going to be some percentage of people who never marry, never settle down, and never have children and/or raise them, just as there's always going to be some percentage of people who are gay, etc. It does seem however that those percentages are increasing. I suppose that's a good thing in terms of overpopulation, but it is a bad thing for the European ethnic groups since they seem to have caught on to the idea of controlling population, but non-Europeans have not. Which again is why the ethnic racial composition of Europe and America seems to be a foregone conclusion.
  203. @Opinionator
    Interesting comment. Though I am skeptical that something so fundamental as attraction could shift so suddenly (as you narrate) on the drafts of the Zeitgeist.

    This is complicated but in a nutshell, what has happened IMO is that “6″ or “7″ caliber women have raised their sites from from settling with a 7 or 8 caliber man. Nowadays they want a man who has the charisma or status rating of a 9. So guys who might have been considered 7s or 8s vis status, charisma, have to raise their game to exude more dominance, strength of identity. Being a reliable provider used to count for something, but not so much today. Due to record levels of university credentialism, careerism, and income, women have the illusion of independence but by their mid 30s, they realize it ain’t exactly so (at least if they want kids). I would suggest reading Roger Devlin’s book, “Sexual Utopia in Power”. A more stark take is that there was balanced status mate selection most most of the 20th Century, but post 1965, that gradually imbalanced to 80% of the women chasing 20% of the higher status men. IMO, it is probably more like 50% of women chasing the top 10% of men. The other 50% of women are either overweight, obese, retro-traditional, or special cases(crazy, broken or SJW lefties). Basically they are not attractive enough (due to obesity or kook thinking) or simply unavailable to an average provider male, with average looks & status.

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  204. @Steve Sailer
    That's a good idea. They should get together and stage debates.

    I think Donna vs the (B.A. in classical studies) Warren Oates lookalike author of The 48 Laws of Power, Robert Greene, who went on to write The Art of Seduction would be a better debate.

    Greene talks a lot about military strategy “getting inside the OOAD loop” ect.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop#OverviewThe key is to obscure your intentions and make them unpredictable to your opponent while you simultaneously clarify his intentions. That is, operate at a faster tempo to generate rapidly changing conditions that inhibit your opponent from adapting or reacting to those changes and that suppress or destroy his awareness. Thus, a hodgepodge of confusion and disorder occur to cause him to over- or under-react to conditions or activities that appear to be uncertain, ambiguous, or incomprehensible.

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  205. @AndrewR
    Male and female sexual strategies are essentially a zero-sum game, and feminism seeks to maximize female liberty while maximally restructing male liberty.

    Male and female sexual strategies are essentially a zero-sum game, and feminism seeks to maximize female liberty while maximally restricting male liberty.

    In any tractable game being played by two intelligent agents, the goal, in the absence of significant evidence indicating irrationality in the opponent’s strategy, is to minimize the maximum gain that one’s opponent can realize. In technical jargon this is called the Minimax Theorum, credited to (((John Von Neumann)))*. In this sense, the above quote reflects positively on feminism as being a rational and competent ideology from a two-player, game theoretic standpoint.

    Psychopathy researcher Robert Hare has noted multiple times that the highest scoring psychopaths on the PCLr seem to have a natural intuition for applying game theoretic concepts in order to maximally exploit social situations. In this case however, their opponents usually are not acting rationally, giving the psychopath additional information by which he can set aside a minimax strategy and instead maximally exploit his target. Again, this is a good strategy from a two-player-game perspective.

    These are the correct, rational courses of action for two player games but there are two problems: 1) society is not a two player game and 2) psychopaths are the limit of anti-social behavior and are thus totally incompatible with society by definition. An ideology operating on psychopathic principals must therefore be incompatible as well, as its principal feature is recruiting then shaping the behavior of its adherents.

    *parenthetic EoE

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  206. @Mark G.
    A lot of what are now called beta male behaviors actually worked in the days of our stodgy old grandparents. A primary female goal was to find an economic provider and marry him. Men would act a certain way to show they could fill this role. The increase of the welfare state removed the need for women to do this. This includes not just the obvious forms of welfare like income transfers but also lots of indirect forms like government enforced affirmative action which enables women to get higher paying jobs that they could never get just based on their qualifications. Women were now able to pick romantic partners based on looks or personality while having the beta males toil and pay the taxes to support the welfare state and toil in business situations where they were doing more work while being passed over for promotions that were given to less qualified and less hard working females. Eventually, though, beta males figured out that they were getting screwed and rebelled. The PUA lifestyle is just one form of this rebellion. There are multiple other forms like men dropping the pursuit of getting married or even pursuing women at all and pursuit of careers that would support a wife and family. This can be seen in the collapsing marriage rates and men leaving the work force. This is starting to cause an economic decline as we undergo a shift from men working jobs and women marrying the men who are working to men not working and paying taxes at the same time more women come to depend on the welfare state that doesn't have the tax receipts coming in to pay for it. This is a situation that can't and won't last long term. The alpha male strategies as presented by PUA advocates work in the current situation but men will need to shift back to more of a provider role which may entail more beta behaviors and women will need to accept that they can't avoid marriage and sleep with the alpha males because beta males need to be given a reason to work and the primary reason for that has always been to support a wife and children.

    Eventually, though, beta males figured out that they were getting screwed and rebelled. The PUA lifestyle is just one form of this rebellion. There are multiple other forms like men dropping the pursuit of getting married or even pursuing women at all and pursuit of careers that would support a wife and family

    Aye. And the whole sorry mess is a good illustration of the old adage about cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face.

    Those MGTOWs who are dropping pursuing women are going to be 70 someday, and alone, and likely facing a diagnosis like brain cancer. They will have, whilst counting the minutes til the next morphine dose to be administered by his harried, indifferent Filipino nurse, plenty of uninterrupted moments to contemplate their lives of utter insignificance.

    Because, does it really matter how many times they leveled up in Call of Duty if they didn’t really meet any true Calls of Duty in real life?

    An aging harridan has, at least, a Soft Kitty, Warm Kitty to comfort her.

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    • Replies: @Mark G.
    The Kitty won't be able to take care of the aging harridan and if that is all she has then she is going to be in trouble. She may not even be able to afford a nurse or any kind of medical treatment at all because the socialized healthcare system the leftist politicians she voted for provided will have collapsed from lack of funding as the tax base has totally shriveled up. She won't be getting Social Security because that is underfunded long term so she may not even have enough to eat and will be suffering from semi-starvation. She'll be sharing the cat food with the cat or maybe even eating the cat. She'll be able to contemplate the momentary pleasure she got from all the years she had sex with worthless bad boys who never cared about her and is now totally and utterly alone because she never cared about or was kind to any beta male who would actually marry her and love her and take care of her.
  207. @Opinionator
    Doesn’t mean that either one goes stupid and doesn’t recognize that crooked teeth and bald spots won’t win a person modelling contracts, but it is what it is, and love is love.

    I do not know that men experience the "falling in love" that women experience.

    Oh, they do! I hope it happens to you, that it happens with a woman worthy of you, and that it’s reciprocated!

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  208. @SFG
    Her readership would probably be counted in the dozens if she weren’t concern trolling various alt-right/PUA factions.

    I think you have hit the nail on the head. It's hard not to have an inferiority complex (especially if you are a feminist and believe women are supposed to achieve things outside the home) when your brother invented Facebook and is now a famous billionaire. So the lady plugs away in obscurity and--here comes a fight with PUAs, one of the designated feminist villains. Piss them off, get attention, get noticed.

    She might even be trying to leverage it into an eventual writing gig--she can write think pieces for Slate or some similar site about feminism and classics.

    when your brother invented Facebook

    *uckerberg did *not* invent Facebook. He stole the idea from the Winklevoss twins when they hired him to write the software for it.

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  209. @Glossy
    I hate Zucky's politics, but I can see why he would prefer a Harvard graduate to a model. Smart men like smart women.

    The various Zuckerbergs so far seem like models in how not to let sudden wealth ruin your life.

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  210. @Desiderius
    Women are the relevant category here.

    Feminists wept.

    Well, since it’s a practically universal guy thing to boast about all the notches in their belt, then either there were a coupla gals who *really* got around, or the guys were lying about their prowess, or all the women were lying about their virtue, or both.

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  211. @Anonymous
    Sailer's law of female blog post commenting?

    LOL Nah, I’m an old, married Grandma woman, long out of the “gotta get a man” game (and I don’t have crooked teeth, just an overbite). Besides, I mentioned men’s bald spots, too. :P

    Seriously, the things that become most endearing about a person are often not the most stereotypically beautiful things. Sorry to sound gross, but think of that movie “Good Will Hunting” and how the shrink talked to Will about missing how his wife would fart in her sleep. KWIM? Or get a mental picture of your Mom, your Dad, or your first girlfriend in your mind and pinpoint the things that recall them the best. I have an image of my Mom’s hands at work in the kitchen, for ex., and an image of my Dad that came from when we were driving down the road in the Summer, him at the wheel. I looked over at him, and there was a drop of sweat running down his nose, and he struck me as being old and vulnerable. Those images aren’t of them in their prime, but they evoke them to me. The bald spot thing is based on a real thing in my life, too. You understand what I’m saying?

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    • Replies: @Sean
    Donna's dentist dad apparently agrees with you, as the Zuckerbergs don't have the overstraighted teeth typical of affluent Americans.

    I think you have to be already having regular sex to begin to find things like farting in bed endearing. In arranged marriages (such as are common among Pakistanis) the couple have usually fallen in love by a year after they began sleeping together as virtual strangers.

  212. @Negrolphin Pool

    But still, when a guy meets a girl and is hit by the thunderbolt, her not-so-straight teeth can come to be one of the main things that he finds charming about her.
     
    I think that can be filed in the loose drawer labeled "fetishization".

    So cynical, man. And not true. I know a man who didn’t care anything about big boobs until he fell in love with a woman who has them, and a woman who never thought twice about the male butt and thighs until she fell in love with a man with a great set of them. IOW, you’re thinking backwards relative to what I’m saying.

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  213. @Jefferson
    "Women have gotten mad at PUAs because they want to sleep with actual top-20% of men, not one of the 80% doing a good impression. That’s the real source of hostility towards the PUA movement."

    Female hatred for PUA comes entirely from the Left. Women who are apolitical and Right Wing women are not losing any sleep at night over PUA guys getting laid. And even on the Left it's mostly SWPL women who hate PUA guys. NAM women are extremely turned on by PUA game.

    Women who are apolitical and Right Wing women are not losing any sleep at night over PUA guys getting laid.

    I am. Because PUA is anti-White, and even more so, anti-White-Men.

    Hear me out:

    Children, to be reared into capable, mentally stable, productive, happy adults need to grow up being reared by their two bioparents, married to each other and living in the same house.
    It’s best if the parents love each other, but if they are at least mature enough to be *nice* to each other, kids do better than ones from broken homes. For kids, Divorce is a Fucking Disaster.

    White children, particularly, because Ice People are k-strategists, need that solid, nuclear family arrangement. As bad as White girls have it when raised by single mothers, White boys do utterly *terrible* without a dad in the house. I’m not telling you guys anything you don’t already know.

    PUAs aren’t in it, by and large, to get married. They’re in it for casual sex. Well, aside from the broken hearts it creates, promiscuity spreads disease, and a particularly insidious and common disease it spreads is chlamydia.

    For women, chlamydia is the Silent Fertility Killer. It scars the Fallopian tubes, usually without symptoms. The PUA is the chlamydia germ’s best friend.

    So, even if our foolish damsel who got bedded by a diseased PUA later straightens up and decides to wed a Beta, she often finds she can’t get pregnant because of that chlamydia she picked up five years ago, from her one-night-stand with that pump-n-dumper, that she never even knew about.

    And, even IF fertility treatments succeed, the simple truth is, people with histories of promiscuity are statistically more likely to get divorced, and that means our little In-Vitro Angel is going to endure the Fucking Disaster of Divorce.

    Hence: fewer White kids get conceived (due to PUA promiscuity-spreading chlamydia-induced infertility) and fewer White kids get reared well (due to PUA promiscuity-induced inability to properly pair-bond = divorce.)

    What could be more anti-White, and anti White Men, than White men, before they even were grown men, not getting conceived in the first place, or reared well in the second place?

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    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "White children, particularly, because Ice People are k-strategists, need that solid, nuclear family arrangement."

    K- and r-strategy is not race based. You've been reading too much Anonymous Conservative.

    "Hence: fewer White kids get conceived (due to PUA promiscuity-spreading chlamydia-induced infertility) and fewer White kids get reared well (due to PUA promiscuity-induced inability to properly pair-bond = divorce.)"

    Now I've heard it all. PUAs are anti-white. Why don't you peddle your wares to Roissy at the source?

    "What could be more anti-White, and anti White Men, than White men, before they even were grown men, not getting conceived in the first place, or reared well in the second place?"

    How about just focusing on men in general rather than making it about race?

  214. @Glossy
    I hate Zucky's politics, but I can see why he would prefer a Harvard graduate to a model. Smart men like smart women.

    Jewish men-Asian women hook-ups are almost de rigueur at Harvard. Perhaps that is another reason for the quota .

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  215. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Opinionator
    Just go out, do your best in the world, keep HWP

    What is HWP?

    Hating White People?

    Hitting Wide Pitches?

    Hamming While Posturing?

    More seasonally, a Holiday Wine Party?
    Happy Christmas!

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  216. @Jefferson
    "Roissey is pushing 50, never married, childless. He can’t provide any credible insight into how to have a healthy family or how female psychology changes once they have a child."

    It's never too late to become a father. Steve Martin did not become a dad for the first time until he was 67.

    "Roosh is Middle Eastern, in his late 30s, has never been married, is childless, has never been in a long term relationship. Probably still looking for his 18 year old Ukrainian virgin wife to be (good luck with that one)."

    His future 18 year old wife doesn't have to be Ukrainian. She can also be Brazilian, Russian, Colombian, Polish, Venezuelan, Serbian, Argentinian, or Czech for example.

    Roosh V likes South American women and Eastern European women equally. He is not really into WASP chicks though, as he doesn't think they are feminine enough.

    It’s never too late to become a father. Steve Martin did not become a dad for the first time until he was 67.

    Uh, wrong. While it may be never too late to cause pregnancy, the older the dad gets the higher the risk his kid will be autistic / Down syndrome.

    Also, being a dad isn’t only about sperm donation. A dad at 67 is not likely to be around long enough to raise that kid to adulthood, and the modern epidemic of poor outcomes in children raised by single mothers says, Dad’s presence and discipline and love during childhood and teenage years are utterly vital.

    http://www.menshealth.com/health/age-and-risks-of-fathering-a-child