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Does the UFO Era Trace Back to the Japanese Balloon Bombing of the USA in 1944-45?
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When thinking about the UFO Era that began in 1947, it’s hard not to suspect that it must have had roots during WWII, since most everything seemingly new in the postwar world actually had roots in The Big One, when humanity simply tried harder than at any point before or since.

An anonymous commenter points out:

Some part of the UFO craze was likely due to a backstory:

In WWII the Japanese conducted the world’s first intercontinental bombing campaign against the US, using balloons that mostly dropped incendiaries (firebombs), though they also carried anti-personnel bombs. These balloons, somewhere between large weather balloons and those unmanned balloons researchers launch to travel around the earth in the jet stream, were carried by the jet stream to the US.

The Japanese launched some 9,300 balloons, around 300 are known to have landed in the US, some as far east as the Great Lakes, and probably around 1000 reached the US in total. The bombs were intended to start large-scale fires in the American west. In practice, the bombs were pretty ineffective. One killed 6 people. Ironically, one once knocked out power to the Hanford plant making A-bomb plutonium.

One reason the balloons were ineffective was the US launched a gigantic effort to keep the Japanese from learning about any results. News reports were censored of anything relating to the bombs, so the Japanese would think their program was a failure. The US formed the first large smoke-jumper unitsto counter forest fires that might be started by the balloons:

From your friendly US Forest Service:

Operation Firefly… 2,700 person military effort group assigned to Operation Fire Fly in US Forest Service regions 1,4,5, and 6. Fire Fly was organized as a massive civilian/military effort to combat the expected wildland fire threat from the Japanese balloon bombs, which had been arriving in increasing numbers along the west coast (and as far east as Michigan) since August 1944. Although it was not public knowledge at the time, there was serious concern by US officials that the balloon bombs would also introduce biological warfare agents into North America.”

As the above mentions, one reason the US was probably so leary about news getting out about the programs was the balloons could have been used for biowarfare, which the Japanese were known to be experimenting with.

The gasbag of a Japanese balloon bomb. Partially deflated, bouncing along the ground at night, and then perhaps exploding in a flash as the hydrogen went up when some of its ordnance went off… well it would have made for a strange sight that only left a burn mark after the FBI cleaned it up. Perhaps something took off?

And then the men in black from the government show up and tell you that you really, really didn’t see anything. And that if you did, it was very dangerous (and it was, that’s how those 6 people got killed, a pregnant women and kids from a Sunday school class). And if you tried to talk to any local news men, well, as you went up the chain they started to get more and more shifty about it all… and you occasionally hear about special fighter plane squadrons of “foo fighters”

There’s one in the Smithsonian, shot down over Alturas, California… in sight of a Japanese relocation camp.

So there was something real, but not out-of-this-world. Given the bioware possibilities, it was probably a sensitive subject during the early Cold War.

Did the Soviets ever send balloons over the U.S.? The Roswell Incident of 1947 was the crash of a high tech U.S. balloon that was intended to float over the Soviet Union.

Even earlier were the events of February 23-25, 1942, which are fictionalized in Steven Spielberg’s 1979 movie 1941, his follow-up to his UFO movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind. This is perhaps Spielberg’s biggest flop movie ever, despite all the talent that worked on it, including Robert Zemeckis, Bob Gale, and John Milius. It’s not an enjoyable movie since every single character is unlikeable. But it’s a memorable movie.

Anyway, on the evening of February 23, 1942, a Japanese submarine surfaced off the coast of California and started shelling the oil field west of Santa Barbara. (There’s now a plaque memorializing the event at the Sandpiper golf course in Goleta, CA.)

This didn’t do much physical damage, but the next night was the Battle of Los Angeles, a mass freakout probably set off by air raid observers shooting at a weather balloon, followed by everybody else in town shooting off their guns because they could hear everybody else shooting.

It’s easy to laugh at 1942 Angelenos for assuming that the seemingly pointless submarine attack on the Santa Barbara area was a feint to distract from a coming attack on a more strategic target, such as Los Angeles with its huge aircraft industry. But that’s how the Japanese rolled. They didn’t believe in concentrating their forces, they believed in extremely complex battle plans.

For example, the Japanese attack on Midway Island in the Central Pacific in June 1942 was accompanied by a massive side attack on the Aleutian Islands thousands of miles to the north to draw the U.S. Navy away. Fortunately, by then the U.S. was reading the Japanese code and didn’t fall for the bait. But as late as October 1944, Admiral Halsey fell for a Japanese feint at the ultra-complex Battle of Leyte Gulf, which caused some extremely dicey moments in the sub-Battle off Samar for the smallish U.S. ships left behind to guard the Army’s landing in the Philippines when suddenly the main Japanese fleet, including the world’s largest battleship, showed up unimpeded.

 
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  1. The claim that the Roswell debris was a spy balloon always seemed odd to me. To get to the USSR, it would have had to travel with the winds east, across the entire US, the Atlantic and all of Western and Central Europe. What are the odds of that happening?

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Probably a little less than the Japanese fire balloons reaching the U.S., of which about 300 were sighted making it across the Pacific.
    , @Faraday's Bobcat
    Maybe it was just a test.
    , @Anon
    The earth is a sphere, just go north. Also, radioactive isotopes tend to spread, so just having it up in the air at a high enough altitude might have been enough.
    , @Rod1963
    Roswell was most likely one of our rockets that went off course and crashed. It was pretty common at the time, we even had Army rockets going off course and crashing in Mexico. Remember Roswell happened during the wild and woolly days of rocketry. And one thing about the military, they don't like discussing in public their screw-ups.

    That being said, Rosewell is a time waster and a nothingburger like Oak Island. No matter how much you dig you never find anything. Because there was never anything to find.
    , @Kevin O'Keeffe
    I see no reason to assume the U.S. would have chosen to launch a balloon destined for the USSR, from a location within the CONUS. Assuming the government is telling the truth about Roswell, the balloon flight in New Mexico was presumably just some sort of test run. More likely, we'd just launch the balloon from West Germany, Norway, Turkey, etc. Or maybe Japan, or Alaska?
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  2. Fascinating.

    Regarding your final couple of paragraphs, maybe the UFO incident involving the US Navy in 2004

    http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/12/httpsfightersweepcom1460x-files-edition.html

    was the work of a unit of the Japanese armed forces still fighting on, like the guys who used to be discovered on various Pacific islands up until about 1985?

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  3. Well, we had the “Mystery Airships” (think Jules Verne’s Robur The Conqueror visits Texas in his airship) from the 19th century:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_airship

    So this goes back some ways.

    Also, end-of-WWII led to reports of “Foo Fighters” (something like “ball lightning” which AFAIK has been observed since though):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foo_fighter

    Compare with “Earthquake lights”:

    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/01/140106-earthquake-lights-earthquake-prediction-geology-science/

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  4. @bob sykes
    The claim that the Roswell debris was a spy balloon always seemed odd to me. To get to the USSR, it would have had to travel with the winds east, across the entire US, the Atlantic and all of Western and Central Europe. What are the odds of that happening?

    Probably a little less than the Japanese fire balloons reaching the U.S., of which about 300 were sighted making it across the Pacific.

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    • Replies: @El Dato
    Reminder that someone got killed probably chasing a Skyhook balloon in a Pursuit fighter:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantell_UFO_incident
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  5. @Steve Sailer
    Probably a little less than the Japanese fire balloons reaching the U.S., of which about 300 were sighted making it across the Pacific.

    Reminder that someone got killed probably chasing a Skyhook balloon in a Pursuit fighter:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantell_UFO_incident

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    • Replies: @El Dato
    (The editing time is too short around here.)

    From the linked article:


    In 1956, Ruppelt wrote that the Mantell crash was one of three "classic" UFO cases in 1948 that would help to define the UFO phenomenon in the public mind, and would help convince some Air Force intelligence specialists that UFOs were a "real", physical phenomenon. The other two "classic" sightings in 1948 were the Chiles-Whitted UFO encounter and the Gorman dogfight.
     
    The "Gorman Dogfight" is basically that recent cockpit video w/o the electronica.
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  6. The Japanese “believed in extremely complex battle plans” lolz while omitting crucial, war-winning details like the absence of the aircraft carriers at Pearl Harbor and the failure to hit the fuel storage facilities.

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  7. A spy balloon makes a little more sense in the context of the common explanation of a “weather balloon”. A weather balloon sounds innocuous and would not sound too suspicious if someone ever got a good glimpse of what fell.

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  8. @El Dato
    Reminder that someone got killed probably chasing a Skyhook balloon in a Pursuit fighter:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mantell_UFO_incident

    (The editing time is too short around here.)

    From the linked article:

    In 1956, Ruppelt wrote that the Mantell crash was one of three “classic” UFO cases in 1948 that would help to define the UFO phenomenon in the public mind, and would help convince some Air Force intelligence specialists that UFOs were a “real”, physical phenomenon. The other two “classic” sightings in 1948 were the Chiles-Whitted UFO encounter and the Gorman dogfight.

    The “Gorman Dogfight” is basically that recent cockpit video w/o the electronica.

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  9. UFOs in popular culture seemed to reach another zenith in the 1990′s after the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of the cold war. There were a series of science fiction movies, shows and adaptations made during that time. Some were quite low brow, but entertaining to its target audience (Independence Day and Starship Troopers), others such as the X-Files had a deeper plot and interesting story line (IMO). There were also documentaries detailing sightings of UFOs and even bizarre claims of alien abduction. After 9-11, this all seemed to die down pretty quickly. Chris Carter, a writer and producer of X-files, even remarked that the public had no appetite for little green men after 9-11.

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  10. But that’s how the Japanese rolled. They didn’t believe in concentrating their forces, they believed in extremely complex battle plans.

    My favorite is how a portion of their forces rolled down the Malaysian Peninsula on bicycles to take Singapore.

    That alone is pretty novel/intricate.

    But even better, they weren’t just any old bicycles, but ones they stole from the Malaysians. And they planned this, their planners before the war had spies figure out how many bicycle shops and bicycles there were in Malaysia so they didn’t have to bring their own rides.

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  11. WTF is Mr Sailer’s sudden interest in UFOs all about? Has he read a book or a magazine and now knows the solution that hitherto has eluded us all?

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  12. OT, but you raised the topic, Steve. Clifton Sprague and his tiny Taffy 3 Task Force are one of the amazing heroic stories of the US Navy. Destroyers charging cruisers and battleships in a suicide mission to save their brethren in defenseless escort carriers chase off the Japanese combined fleet. Why no one’s ever made a film about it amazes me.

    If the Japanese fleet just does what it should have been easily able to do, (slap aside the destroyers and planes attacking with small arms) it smashes MacArthur’s landing force and sends its supplies to the bottom of the Pacific.

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    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    Agree completely. A lot 0f brave men died that day while Halsey farting around chasing phantoms 90 miles north. There is a reason there are Nimitz carriers and not Halsey carriers.

    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leyte_Gulf
    "Halsey had consciously and deliberately left the San Bernardino Strait absolutely unguarded. "

    But it would not make a good movie. Too many white guys being too masculine.
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  13. To answer your title’s question, following Betteridge’s Law of Headlines, is No.

    The definitive history of the UFO mania is Curtis Peebles’s “Watch the Skies.” I’m not sure if it is still in print, but it’s fascinating and comprehensive and shows that UFO mania is a big sine curve that comes back over and over again in the same pattern.

    https://www.amazon.com/Watch-Skies-Curtis-Peebles/dp/0425151174

    https://books.google.co.jp/books/about/Watch_the_Skies.html?id=zjI4X7ZOvOIC&redir_esc=y

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  14. CDR Evans ‘charge’ at the Battle of Samar was probably the high-water mark of the entire history of the US Navy. It’s all downhill from there, I’m afraid.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    There was a certain sincere innocence about UFO's. It was like Rorschach's test.

    http://popularpittsburgh.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Mothman-Phropehcies.jpg

    People saw something but weren't sure what they saw. And during WWII, the sightings were exaggerated and generally the government promoted such paranoia to boost war efforts with scare tactics. So, Jewish kids saw German submarines all along Eastern coast. Iowa farmers scoured the sky for 'Jap' planes. Hollywood made tons of movies about German spies all over(and later such paranoia during cold War when the gaze fell on communist spies, many of whom were Jewish).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoAKvkwr_AU

    And of course, Orson Welles took it to a whole new level.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBmLFjwmqSo

    But now, it's the opposite. The government doesn't want people to notice the obvious. There is MASSIVE invasion of the West by foreign elements, but never mind. It's either not happening OR it's not an invasion since all those aliens are not aliens but New Europeans or New Americans.

    It's telling that after the sci-fi-like attacks on 9/11, the response of the US was to let in tons of more Muslims.
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  15. Konspiracy Kooks are funny. They seem to LARP the idea that they’re a threat to the system, or something. The only threatening “conspiracy theories” I know about, Konspiracy Kooks won’t touch with a barge pole. They’re like leftists and their delusions about being plucky rebels.

    As for aliens among us, I suppose anything’s possible. You’d think a species capable of routinely visiting Earth would be so advanced that we’d never get a glimpse, if they didn’t want us to. Visiting a few times is one thing, but flitting back and forth undetected on a constant basis is Star Trek level advanced; warp drive and cloaked ship advanced.

    I think the only good reason an advanced spacefaring race would have to visit Earth would be to swing by once and annihilate us (we show every indication of being a big future problem to any race already colonizing space, as any species likely to develop space travel is). Sure, humans go to remote places to photograph the flora and fauna, but we tend to avoid the problematic, isolated human populations that haven’t come to grips with our existence, and tend to shoot at us with poison arrows or throw us into cauldrons. Besides, if we had to travel many light years through a vacuum to photograph the flora and fauna, and we had robots that could do the job, we’d send robots. I think a spacefaring species would have the robots. So maybe if the Roswell Legend was about autopsying a robot, I’d be more convinced.

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    • Replies: @Rod1963

    I think the only good reason an advanced spacefaring race would have to visit Earth would be to swing by once and annihilate us (we show every indication of being a big future problem to any race already colonizing space, as any species likely to develop space travel is)
     
    We aren't a problem to anyone but ourselves given our homicidal tendencies and short term thinking. A race capable of building a interstellar engine would have to be quite stable and rational. Neither which describes even modern day WASPs.

    And when you look at our space program you can see it's regressed to 1950's level because we no longer have the infrastructure or the people capable doing anything but drawing a paycheck. Musk relies on Russsian rocket motors and American tech from the 1950's. We can't even put men on the space station. In 1960 we could.

    We can't even build a shuttle replacement even though our understanding of materials, flight dynamics, structural engineering far surpasses what the designers of the STS knew

    Our major aerospace corporations are no longer capable being innovative at all. Seriously they aren't. Their corporate culture prevents innovation and creativity. The problem is well known and documented
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  16. @bob sykes
    The claim that the Roswell debris was a spy balloon always seemed odd to me. To get to the USSR, it would have had to travel with the winds east, across the entire US, the Atlantic and all of Western and Central Europe. What are the odds of that happening?

    Maybe it was just a test.

    Read More
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  17. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Space Race with Soviets surely took it to another level.

    Also, the explosion of sci-fi literature and movies in the 50s aimed mostly at kids, esp at Drive-Ins.

    CLOSE ENCOUNTERS has that drive-in feel.

    It’s interesting that the first encounter happens in a car. Elaine Robinson got started in a car too.

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    • Replies: @El Dato

    Space Race with Soviets surely took it to another level.
     
    IIRC, in "The UFO phenomenon" Hayek lists "close encounters of the 2nd kind" with road-hugging torpedoes the week Sputnik went orbital. I will have to find that passage.

    It’s interesting that the first encounter happens in a car.
     
    That was one of the best "movie encounters" ever, it really concentrates all about the UFO phenomenon ("20 seconds attack of schizophrenia") in a superb, short scene.

    How much did encounter reports change after that movie?
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  18. @bob sykes
    The claim that the Roswell debris was a spy balloon always seemed odd to me. To get to the USSR, it would have had to travel with the winds east, across the entire US, the Atlantic and all of Western and Central Europe. What are the odds of that happening?

    The earth is a sphere, just go north. Also, radioactive isotopes tend to spread, so just having it up in the air at a high enough altitude might have been enough.

    Read More
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  19. The Japanese/German/Italian internment was wrong but understandable in context. (South American countries rounded them up, too.) This context, however, seems to be diminished year by year, so that I now see articles on Japanese internment that don’t even mention Pearl Harbor, let alone the shelling of Santa Barbara.

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    • Replies: @Chris Mallory
    Nothing wrong about the interments at all. Japs, Germans, and Italians should have have been in the US to begin with.
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  20. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    UFO and interest in space speculation(esp of fancy kind) may also have something to do with rise of psychoanalysis. The more people looked into the murky surreal space of the subconscious, the more confused they became. So, outerspace was a convenient place onto which their fears and anxieties of innerspace were projected.

    These UFO accounts say more about human psychology than reality… and Shymalan plays it that way in SIGNS, maybe inspired partly by Tarkovsky’s SACRIFICE. Outer demons are manifestations of inner demons.

    Space became psychologized. The aliens in THIS ISLAND EARTH have big tall brains. And in 2001, it got psycho-sexualized with Bowman put on a casting couch and then rebirthed as a kid.

    With waning of religion, UFO became hope of higher consciousness of cosmos visiting us like second coming of Jesus or satanic attacks. Arronovsky’s NOAH is very sci-fi-ish

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    • Replies: @Pat Boyle
    As to "This Island Earth" - Yes Exeter and Drac have very high foreheads as well as the Monitor. But the biggest cerebrums are seen on the Space Insect which chases Faith Domerique around the space craft. So perhaps all the Metalunans need extra brain mass just to achieve a normal IQ. They have, I imagine, much less efficient brain matter than humans.

    BTW I read the novel on which the movie was based. The island referred to, is one of the real Pacific islands on which we fought in WWII. The whole plot is much simpler and less good than that of the movie.
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  21. @Anon
    Space Race with Soviets surely took it to another level.

    Also, the explosion of sci-fi literature and movies in the 50s aimed mostly at kids, esp at Drive-Ins.

    CLOSE ENCOUNTERS has that drive-in feel.

    It's interesting that the first encounter happens in a car. Elaine Robinson got started in a car too.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYtuw0c3dJ4

    Space Race with Soviets surely took it to another level.

    IIRC, in “The UFO phenomenon” Hayek lists “close encounters of the 2nd kind” with road-hugging torpedoes the week Sputnik went orbital. I will have to find that passage.

    It’s interesting that the first encounter happens in a car.

    That was one of the best “movie encounters” ever, it really concentrates all about the UFO phenomenon (“20 seconds attack of schizophrenia”) in a superb, short scene.

    How much did encounter reports change after that movie?

    Read More
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  22. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    CDR Evans 'charge' at the Battle of Samar was probably the high-water mark of the entire history of the US Navy. It's all downhill from there, I'm afraid.

    There was a certain sincere innocence about UFO’s. It was like Rorschach’s test.

    People saw something but weren’t sure what they saw. And during WWII, the sightings were exaggerated and generally the government promoted such paranoia to boost war efforts with scare tactics. So, Jewish kids saw German submarines all along Eastern coast. Iowa farmers scoured the sky for ‘Jap’ planes. Hollywood made tons of movies about German spies all over(and later such paranoia during cold War when the gaze fell on communist spies, many of whom were Jewish).

    And of course, Orson Welles took it to a whole new level.

    But now, it’s the opposite. The government doesn’t want people to notice the obvious. There is MASSIVE invasion of the West by foreign elements, but never mind. It’s either not happening OR it’s not an invasion since all those aliens are not aliens but New Europeans or New Americans.

    It’s telling that after the sci-fi-like attacks on 9/11, the response of the US was to let in tons of more Muslims.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Whiskey
    There were German U Boats up and down the US East Coast and Gulf Coast. They sank shipping right off the Jersey Shore, and in the Gulf Coast. German u boats even penetrated and attacked shipping in the St. Lawrence Gulf: See here. Because Admiral King hated the British and refused convoy escorts, shipping was an easy target for U Boats with the US East Coast non-blackout lights providing easy illumination for target ships at night. Being silhouetted meant being a sitting duck.

    It wasn't until late 1943 and 1944 that improved radar, sonar, long range Naval air reconnaissance, and convoying produced attrition on the U boat force making them no longer able to operate in the US East Coast, Gulf Coast, Caribbean, and so on.
    , @syonredux

    And of course, Orson Welles took it to a whole new level.
     
    People were pretty tense in 1938:

    A study by the Radio Project discovered that fewer than one-third of frightened listeners understood the invaders to be aliens; most thought they were listening to reports of a German invasion or a natural catastrophe.[4]:180, 191[30] "People were on edge", wrote Welles biographer Frank Brady. "For the entire month prior to 'The War of the Worlds', radio had kept the American public alert to the ominous happenings throughout the world. The Munich crisis was at its height. … For the first time in history, the public could tune into their radios every night and hear, boot by boot, accusation by accusation, threat by threat, the rumblings that seemed inevitably leading to a world war."[11]:164–165

    CBS News chief Paul White wrote that he was convinced that the panic induced by the broadcast was a result of the public suspense generated before the Munich Pact. "Radio listeners had had their emotions played upon for days … Thus they believed the Welles production even though it was specifically stated that the whole thing was fiction".[26]:47
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_of_the_Worlds_(radio_drama)


    RE: Radio Days


    Probably my favorite Woody Allen movie. Always liked the Yom Kippur bit:



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlJHdVHRBbk
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  23. Steve,

    There was another Japanese submarine shelling of an old naval fort in at the mouth of the Columbia River in Oregon Also a seaplane fire bombing in hopes of starting a forest fire launched from the same submarine.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Fort_Stevens

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookout_Air_Raids

    Postwar

    Twenty years later, the floatplane’s pilot, Nobuo Fujita, was invited back to Brookings. Before he made the trip the Japanese government was assured he would not be tried as a war criminal. In Brookings, Fujita served as Grand Marshal for the local Azalea Festival.[1] At the festival, Fujita presented his family’s 400-year-old samurai sword to the city as a symbol of regret. Fujita made a number of additional visits to Brookings, serving as an “informal ambassador of peace and friendship”.[6] Impressed by his welcome in the United States, in 1985 Fujita invited three students from Brookings to Japan. During the visit of the Brookings-Harbor High School students to Japan, Fujita received a dedicatory letter from an aide of President Ronald Reagan “with admiration for your kindness and generosity”. Fujita returned to Brookings in 1990, 1992, and 1995. In 1992 he planted a tree at the bomb site as a gesture of peace. In 1995, he moved the samurai sword from the Brookings City Hall into the new library’s display case. He was made an honorary citizen of Brookings several days before his death on September 30, 1997, at the age of 85.[7] In October 1998, his daughter, Yoriko Asakura, buried some of Fujita’s ashes at the bomb site.

    Last, at the end of the war the US captured aircraft carrier giant submarines the Japanese hoped to use to attack the Panama Canal or use biological weapons against San Diego.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400-class_submarine#Panama_Canal_strike

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  24. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Why can’t ‘migrants’ be like ET and go home? Even as ET came to love Elliot and appreciate Earth, he wanted to go back home. “ET go home.”

    These migrants are not Nationals but Extra-Nationals who are just visiting. They need to be like ET and dream of going back home. EN go home.

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  25. UFO interest uptick, SpaceX launch from Vandenburg last night.
    Coincidence?
    Nah.

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    • Replies: @anonguy

    UFO interest uptick, SpaceX launch from Vandenburg last night.
    Coincidence?
    Nah.
     
    The luck of the iSteve?
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  26. Somewhat OT:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cherry_Blossoms_at_Night

    Man, oh, man, we really lucked out by developing the atomic bomb in time. Same guy who headed Unit 731 in Manchuria: Ishii could have given lessons to Mengele.

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    • Replies: @El Dato
    I don't think the nukes changed things all that much. Also, military targets would have been nice. But this is an old discussion.
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  27. News reports were censored of anything relating to the bombs, so the Japanese would think their program was a failure.

    The British took a different tack with the V-2 attacks late in the war. The Germans relied on reports from their spies in Britain to correct the targeting of their rockets – i.e., they launched it at x, it landed at y, apply the necessary correction, etc. What they didn’t know was that MI-5 had doubled all the remaining german agents, who radioed back false and misleading reports.

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  28. @Anon
    UFO and interest in space speculation(esp of fancy kind) may also have something to do with rise of psychoanalysis. The more people looked into the murky surreal space of the subconscious, the more confused they became. So, outerspace was a convenient place onto which their fears and anxieties of innerspace were projected.

    These UFO accounts say more about human psychology than reality... and Shymalan plays it that way in SIGNS, maybe inspired partly by Tarkovsky's SACRIFICE. Outer demons are manifestations of inner demons.

    Space became psychologized. The aliens in THIS ISLAND EARTH have big tall brains. And in 2001, it got psycho-sexualized with Bowman put on a casting couch and then rebirthed as a kid.

    With waning of religion, UFO became hope of higher consciousness of cosmos visiting us like second coming of Jesus or satanic attacks. Arronovsky's NOAH is very sci-fi-ish

    As to “This Island Earth” – Yes Exeter and Drac have very high foreheads as well as the Monitor. But the biggest cerebrums are seen on the Space Insect which chases Faith Domerique around the space craft. So perhaps all the Metalunans need extra brain mass just to achieve a normal IQ. They have, I imagine, much less efficient brain matter than humans.

    BTW I read the novel on which the movie was based. The island referred to, is one of the real Pacific islands on which we fought in WWII. The whole plot is much simpler and less good than that of the movie.

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  29. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Outward

    Wow, the British did the same thing against Germany since 1942. A small thing, comperatively, but imagine the effort!

    It’s a weird form of waging war, for our minds, but obviously set into motion by earnest, hard-thinking men. I am sure they had lots of fun though. No wonder the Germans were so keen on the Wunderwaffen. They wanted to have the same kind fun. And just look at them! They are fabulous! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wunderwaffe

    And then of course the V2, that beautiful thing, fulfilling mankind’s eternal dream to throw things back to the Gods. Too bad it was used to kill thousands of people, and too bad it damaged Germany’s war effort much more than she helped her.

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  30. While I still believe Project Mogul is the best Occam’s Razor explanation of the 1947 craze (esp. the Roswell case), Pulitzer-nominated reporter Annie Jacobsen’s book about Area 51 contains a wild story (whose source she believes is credible) that the Roswell incident was a sophisticated Soviet hoax involving a saucer-like craft & odd-looking, child-sized aviators (themselves the result of some weird Soviet human genetic experimentation). The whole thing, Jacobsen’s source asserts, was intended to sow panic into the U.S. populace and chaos in the U.S. government. Brief Jacobsen video on the subject can be found here.

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  31. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    “Does the UFO Era Trace Back to the Japanese Balloon”

    Perhaps earlier.

    “Mystery airships or phantom airships are a class of unidentified flying objects best known from a series of newspaper reports originating in the western United States and spreading east during late 1896 and early 1897. According to researcher Jerome Clark, airship sightings were reported worldwide during the 1880s and 1890s. Mystery airship reports are seen as a cultural predecessor to modern claims of extraterrestrial-piloted flying saucer-style UFOs.”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_airship

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  32. @nebulafox
    Somewhat OT:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cherry_Blossoms_at_Night

    Man, oh, man, we really lucked out by developing the atomic bomb in time. Same guy who headed Unit 731 in Manchuria: Ishii could have given lessons to Mengele.

    I don’t think the nukes changed things all that much. Also, military targets would have been nice. But this is an old discussion.

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    • Replies: @nebulafox
    I think it was the dual factor of the atomic bombings + Soviet invasion of Manchuria. Without both shock factors, the Emperor wouldn't have overrun the War Ministry. Hirohito had already been thinking about ever since what the Japanese called "The Night of Black Snow" in March (which, contrary to pop culture, killed more people than Hiroshima or Nagasaki), but it really took a huge psychological shock to get the inertia out of the way.

    (Even OTL, the hardliners *still* tried after the fact: Kyujo Incident.)

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  33. No, because the Battle of Los Angeles predated it:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_los_angeles

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  34. The Japanese balloon episode is intriguing, but I don’t think there’s a connection. The mistrust of the federal government — men in black, black helicopters, and all of that — seems to belong to a much later age than the Forties and Fifties.
    The idea that during the Cold War the government indulged kooks running wild with LGM and BEM fantasies to help provide cover for advanced aerospace prototypes has more merit. Plus, let’s face it, it’s fun to amaze the rubes.
    Outer space men and one of their UFOs:

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    Research pilot Bill Dana, huh? So he really did have The Right Stuff.

    My name.......Jose Jimenez.
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  35. Oppenheimer and Einstein gave serious thought to the consequences of contact with alien civilizations.

    http://www.higherperspectives.com/oppenheimer-and-einstein-1465075490.html

    If UFOs were all just government disinformation humbug wouldn’t these guys have known or guessed?

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  36. @Svigor
    Konspiracy Kooks are funny. They seem to LARP the idea that they're a threat to the system, or something. The only threatening "conspiracy theories" I know about, Konspiracy Kooks won't touch with a barge pole. They're like leftists and their delusions about being plucky rebels.

    As for aliens among us, I suppose anything's possible. You'd think a species capable of routinely visiting Earth would be so advanced that we'd never get a glimpse, if they didn't want us to. Visiting a few times is one thing, but flitting back and forth undetected on a constant basis is Star Trek level advanced; warp drive and cloaked ship advanced.

    I think the only good reason an advanced spacefaring race would have to visit Earth would be to swing by once and annihilate us (we show every indication of being a big future problem to any race already colonizing space, as any species likely to develop space travel is). Sure, humans go to remote places to photograph the flora and fauna, but we tend to avoid the problematic, isolated human populations that haven't come to grips with our existence, and tend to shoot at us with poison arrows or throw us into cauldrons. Besides, if we had to travel many light years through a vacuum to photograph the flora and fauna, and we had robots that could do the job, we'd send robots. I think a spacefaring species would have the robots. So maybe if the Roswell Legend was about autopsying a robot, I'd be more convinced.

    I think the only good reason an advanced spacefaring race would have to visit Earth would be to swing by once and annihilate us (we show every indication of being a big future problem to any race already colonizing space, as any species likely to develop space travel is)

    We aren’t a problem to anyone but ourselves given our homicidal tendencies and short term thinking. A race capable of building a interstellar engine would have to be quite stable and rational. Neither which describes even modern day WASPs.

    And when you look at our space program you can see it’s regressed to 1950′s level because we no longer have the infrastructure or the people capable doing anything but drawing a paycheck. Musk relies on Russsian rocket motors and American tech from the 1950′s. We can’t even put men on the space station. In 1960 we could.

    We can’t even build a shuttle replacement even though our understanding of materials, flight dynamics, structural engineering far surpasses what the designers of the STS knew

    Our major aerospace corporations are no longer capable being innovative at all. Seriously they aren’t. Their corporate culture prevents innovation and creativity. The problem is well known and documented

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  37. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “To get to the USSR, it would have had to travel with the winds east, across the entire US, the Atlantic and all of Western and Central Europe. What are the odds of that happening?”

    Balloons do this all the time.

    Round-the-world research ballooning is fairly common and is a lot cheaper (and easier) than launching a satellite. Even more–relatively cheap research balloons can circle the globe many times.

    “Six Times Around the World: UC San Diego Researchers Send a Balloon Around the Globe”, UC San Diego News Center, Deborah L. Jude, Jun 8 2017:

    “…The balloon—called a super pressure balloon—was launched by a group of UC San Diego students and researchers about 100 days ago from campus and is on its sixth lap around the globe

    …launch is part of a unique program headed by structural engineering professor John Kosmatka and supported by NASA’s California Space Grant Consortium…

    …launched by a group of UC San Diego undergraduates, a graduate student, Kosmatka and mentors Karl Cain and Phil Karn on February 12, with the hopes of it reaching Europe…

    …“For most kids, near-space ballooning is the closest they can get to space,” said Ellis. “These small super pressure balloons are functionally orbiting the earth for a fraction of the cost it takes to build a cube satellite.”…”

    Manned round-the-world ballooning is no longer that unusual:

    “Around the world in 11 days – in a hot air balloon!”, Euronews, 24/07/2016:

    “Russian adventurer Fedor Konyukhov has landed safely in West Australia after setting a new world record for circumnavigating the world solo in a hot air balloon…

    …Konyukhov smashed the previous record of 13-and-a-half days, set in 2002 by the late Steve Fossett…”

    Round-the-world research ballooning is a long-established thing:

    “NASA: Columbia Scientific Balloon Facility, Scientific Balloons”:

    “Balloons have been used for decades to conduct scientific studies…

    …A Long Duration Balloon (LDB) mission normally traverses between continents or around the world for one circumnavigation. LDB flights may last up to three weeks

    …The superpressure pumpkin balloon has been designed to increase flight durations up to one hundred days…”

    Even today the implications of such balloons as cheap delivery platforms for bioweapons or spy platforms. not requiring all that much technological sophistication, probably has security-related angles. So UFOs may sometimes be a good cover story.

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  38. @Anon
    There was a certain sincere innocence about UFO's. It was like Rorschach's test.

    http://popularpittsburgh.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Mothman-Phropehcies.jpg

    People saw something but weren't sure what they saw. And during WWII, the sightings were exaggerated and generally the government promoted such paranoia to boost war efforts with scare tactics. So, Jewish kids saw German submarines all along Eastern coast. Iowa farmers scoured the sky for 'Jap' planes. Hollywood made tons of movies about German spies all over(and later such paranoia during cold War when the gaze fell on communist spies, many of whom were Jewish).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoAKvkwr_AU

    And of course, Orson Welles took it to a whole new level.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBmLFjwmqSo

    But now, it's the opposite. The government doesn't want people to notice the obvious. There is MASSIVE invasion of the West by foreign elements, but never mind. It's either not happening OR it's not an invasion since all those aliens are not aliens but New Europeans or New Americans.

    It's telling that after the sci-fi-like attacks on 9/11, the response of the US was to let in tons of more Muslims.

    There were German U Boats up and down the US East Coast and Gulf Coast. They sank shipping right off the Jersey Shore, and in the Gulf Coast. German u boats even penetrated and attacked shipping in the St. Lawrence Gulf: See here. Because Admiral King hated the British and refused convoy escorts, shipping was an easy target for U Boats with the US East Coast non-blackout lights providing easy illumination for target ships at night. Being silhouetted meant being a sitting duck.

    It wasn’t until late 1943 and 1944 that improved radar, sonar, long range Naval air reconnaissance, and convoying produced attrition on the U boat force making them no longer able to operate in the US East Coast, Gulf Coast, Caribbean, and so on.

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    • Replies: @Paul Jolliffe
    The PBY Catalina was the best long-range recon plane in the USN's arsenal in WWII. Its effectiveness at spotting U-Boats meant that we would win the Battle of the Atlantic by the end of 1943.

    Richard Overy's outstanding "Why the Allies Won" devotes an entire chapter to the role that recon planes played in the Battle of the Atlantic. I highly recommend it, although I suspect that you, Whiskey, have already read it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_PBY_Catalina#/media/File:Consolidated_PBY-5A_Catalina_in_flight_c1942.jpg
    , @Discard
    Because Admiral King hated the British, he refused naval escorts to American ships traveling along the east coast?
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  39. As the above mentions, one reason the US was probably so leary about news getting out about the programs was the balloons could have been used for biowarfare, which the Japanese were known to be experimenting with.

    Indeed:

    Prisoners were injected with diseases, disguised as vaccinations,[24] to study their effects. To study the effects of untreated venereal diseases, male and female prisoners were deliberately infected with syphilis and gonorrhoea, then studied. Prisoners were also repeatedly subject to rape by guards.[25]

    Plague fleas, infected clothing and infected supplies encased in bombs were dropped on various targets. The resulting cholera, anthrax, and plague were estimated to have killed around and possibly more than 400,000 Chinese civilians.[26] Tularemia was tested on Chinese civilians.[27]

    Unit 731 and its affiliated units (Unit 1644 and Unit 100 among others) were involved in research, development and experimental deployment of epidemic-creating biowarfare weapons in assaults against the Chinese populace (both civilian and military) throughout World War II. Plague-infested fleas, bred in the laboratories of Unit 731 and Unit 1644, were spread by low-flying airplanes upon Chinese cities, coastal Ningbo in 1940, and Changde, Hunan Province, in 1941. This military aerial spraying killed thousands of people with bubonic plague epidemics.[28]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731#Germ_warfare_attacks

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    • Replies: @Old fogey
    The wiki page you linked to is very painful to read. Such tales remind us that original sin is not an outlandish idea.

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?

    We are inundated with messages telling us we should feel guilty because our government interred people of Japanese descent who were living on the Pacific coast when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Is there any evidence that any such experimentation was carried out by American authorities on those people?
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  40. @Anon
    There was a certain sincere innocence about UFO's. It was like Rorschach's test.

    http://popularpittsburgh.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Mothman-Phropehcies.jpg

    People saw something but weren't sure what they saw. And during WWII, the sightings were exaggerated and generally the government promoted such paranoia to boost war efforts with scare tactics. So, Jewish kids saw German submarines all along Eastern coast. Iowa farmers scoured the sky for 'Jap' planes. Hollywood made tons of movies about German spies all over(and later such paranoia during cold War when the gaze fell on communist spies, many of whom were Jewish).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoAKvkwr_AU

    And of course, Orson Welles took it to a whole new level.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBmLFjwmqSo

    But now, it's the opposite. The government doesn't want people to notice the obvious. There is MASSIVE invasion of the West by foreign elements, but never mind. It's either not happening OR it's not an invasion since all those aliens are not aliens but New Europeans or New Americans.

    It's telling that after the sci-fi-like attacks on 9/11, the response of the US was to let in tons of more Muslims.

    And of course, Orson Welles took it to a whole new level.

    People were pretty tense in 1938:

    A study by the Radio Project discovered that fewer than one-third of frightened listeners understood the invaders to be aliens; most thought they were listening to reports of a German invasion or a natural catastrophe.[4]:180, 191[30] “People were on edge”, wrote Welles biographer Frank Brady. “For the entire month prior to ‘The War of the Worlds’, radio had kept the American public alert to the ominous happenings throughout the world. The Munich crisis was at its height. … For the first time in history, the public could tune into their radios every night and hear, boot by boot, accusation by accusation, threat by threat, the rumblings that seemed inevitably leading to a world war.”[11]:164–165

    CBS News chief Paul White wrote that he was convinced that the panic induced by the broadcast was a result of the public suspense generated before the Munich Pact. “Radio listeners had had their emotions played upon for days … Thus they believed the Welles production even though it was specifically stated that the whole thing was fiction”.[26]:47

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_of_the_Worlds_(radio_drama)

    RE: Radio Days

    Probably my favorite Woody Allen movie. Always liked the Yom Kippur bit:

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    • Replies: @Anon
    If you gotta fast, why is it called Yum Kippur?

    Communists listening to Glenn Miller on the radio.

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  41. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “about 300 were sighted making it across the Pacific.”

    That US Forest Service web page states:

    “…Although 1,000 of these balloons reached North America, only 342 were ever sighted or found. Some of those that reached North America, but are not yet found, could conceivably surprise or injure future discoverers…

    …the surprise air raid on Tokyo, led by Lt. Col. Doolittle, may have been one of the reasons for the Japanese renewed interest in the balloon program…

    …The reborn army balloon program was code-named FUGO, an acronym which means “a wind ship weapon”…

    …After all the weapons had been dropped, a small explosive/incendiary charge was supposed to destroy the balloon mechanism and paper bag, leaving practically no evidence of its presence

    …Somehow, the allied authorities in North America had persuaded the free press NOT to publish news of the balloon attacks. With a few relatively minor exceptions there were no published or broadcast accounts of the balloon attacks, which were actually all too well known and of great concern to allied military and civilian authorities. The Japanese did not believe our authorities could actually silence our free press, and therefore thought, no news must mean no significant results from the balloon attacks…

    …Allied authorities were extremely concerned over the potential for major damage from balloon attacks…

    …A little-known and seldom reported variation on the WWII balloon attacks was a British effort to launch balloon weapons against German-occupied Europe. The British discontinued their balloon attacks when some of their balloons came down in neutral Sweden…”

    Japanese balloon bombs —- they are out there:

    “Beware Of Japanese Balloon Bombs”, Linton Weeks, NPR History Dept., January 20, 2015:

    “Just a few months ago a couple of forestry workers in Lumby, British Columbia — about 250 miles north of the U.S. border — happened upon a 70-year-old Japanese balloon bomb…

    …most are still unaccounted for…

    …They appeared from northern Mexico to Alaska, and from Hawaii to Michigan. “When launched — in groups — they are said to have looked like jellyfish floating in the sky…

    …Sightings of the airborne bombs began cropping up throughout the western U.S. in late 1944…

    …landed in seven different Nebraska towns, including Omaha …one balloon bomb was found 10 miles from Detroit…

    …Over the years, the explosive devices have popped up here and there…

    …”The bomb recently recovered in British Columbia — in October 2014 — “has been in the dirt for 70 years,”‘…So how was the situation handled? “They put some C-4 on either side of this thing,” Proce said, “and they blew it to smithereens.”…”

    After 70 years you would have thought someone might have studied it a bit before blowing it to smithereens (but no doubt they had to quickly hide the evidence of the alien technology ;) ).

    Someone did do a great job of running a censorship program of all US news. It’s taken about half a century for the Japanese program to become common knowledge.

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    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    Similarly ULTRA (interception/decryption of German codes) was kept a secret for 29 years after the end of the war, despite the thousands of Brits who knew about it.
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  42. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    I wonder how things would have played out if other planets had life, esp intelligent life.

    If radar and such stuff picked up good evidence that life might exist on other planets, UFO craze would be much stronger. Maybe our solar system neighors are dropping in on us. But once earthlings knew there was no life on those planets, space aliens had to be from other star systems and that meant far far away. Very unlikely.

    But WHAT IF Mars had Martians, Venus had Venutians, Jupiter had Jupiterians, Saturn had Saturnians, etc. What if all of them were civilized but behind humanity? What if all of3 them were civilized and more advanced than humanity? What if all of them were civilized and half were more civilized and half were less civilized?

    What if there was war in one of the planets and its ‘refugees’ wanted to settle earth?

    Would there even be interplanetary marriages?

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  43. @syonredux

    And of course, Orson Welles took it to a whole new level.
     
    People were pretty tense in 1938:

    A study by the Radio Project discovered that fewer than one-third of frightened listeners understood the invaders to be aliens; most thought they were listening to reports of a German invasion or a natural catastrophe.[4]:180, 191[30] "People were on edge", wrote Welles biographer Frank Brady. "For the entire month prior to 'The War of the Worlds', radio had kept the American public alert to the ominous happenings throughout the world. The Munich crisis was at its height. … For the first time in history, the public could tune into their radios every night and hear, boot by boot, accusation by accusation, threat by threat, the rumblings that seemed inevitably leading to a world war."[11]:164–165

    CBS News chief Paul White wrote that he was convinced that the panic induced by the broadcast was a result of the public suspense generated before the Munich Pact. "Radio listeners had had their emotions played upon for days … Thus they believed the Welles production even though it was specifically stated that the whole thing was fiction".[26]:47
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_of_the_Worlds_(radio_drama)


    RE: Radio Days


    Probably my favorite Woody Allen movie. Always liked the Yom Kippur bit:



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlJHdVHRBbk

    If you gotta fast, why is it called Yum Kippur?

    Communists listening to Glenn Miller on the radio.

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  44. My mom in Omaha saw one of those balloons overhead in the early 1940′s. You had to use binoculars to see it, she said. I don’t think P-51′s or B-17′s could get up high enough to shoot it down.

    The balloons that started the UFO craze, however, were part of the US military’s monitoring of Soviet nuclear weapons tests. They flew higher than any Soviet missile or plane could go, and were equipped with a giant metallic “microphone” that could “hear” nuclear explosions occurring 15 miles below. If that sounds a little dubious, it was. A short-lived program, but one of them crash landed in Roswell, and that helped start America’s UFO obsession. In the very early days the obsession, though, the acronym “UFO” wasn’t synonymous with alien space craft. It was directed more at Soviet military and aircraft testing. At least in the public’s eyes.

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  45. Flying saucer sightings off of Connecticut in 1942:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_V-173

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  46. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    A headline too good to pass up:

    “Canada history: Jan 12, 1945 Japan bombs Saskatchewan”, Marc Montgomery, 12 January, 2017:

    “With the Second World War at a crescendo…

    …January 12, 1945, 15-year-old Ralph Melle came across a strange object…

    …It turned out to be an incendiary bomb from one of Japan’s balloon bombs, a Fu-Go…

    …Whenever one was found, people were usually deliberately misled as to what it was, and in all cases told to keep quiet. Journalists were also told not report on findings, as the authorities did not want the Japanese to learn that some of their bombs were indeed getting to North America…”

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  47. @Whoever
    The Japanese balloon episode is intriguing, but I don't think there's a connection. The mistrust of the federal government -- men in black, black helicopters, and all of that -- seems to belong to a much later age than the Forties and Fifties.
    The idea that during the Cold War the government indulged kooks running wild with LGM and BEM fantasies to help provide cover for advanced aerospace prototypes has more merit. Plus, let's face it, it's fun to amaze the rubes.
    Outer space men and one of their UFOs:
    https://i.imgur.com/5GBSNQH.jpg

    Research pilot Bill Dana, huh? So he really did have The Right Stuff.

    My name…….Jose Jimenez.

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    • Replies: @Whoever
    I had to look that one up. (^_^)
    "Is that a crash helmet you're wearing?"
    "Oh, I hope not!"

    Apropos of nothing, here's a photo of the Bell X-2 being blatantly sexually harassed.
    https://i.imgur.com/9y4MeZD.jpg
    , @Paul Jolliffe
    Hey, there's a rule around here: if you make a "Right Stuff" reference (greatest movie of all time) then you gotta show a clip!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj06C0GzgHs
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  48. Steve, you’ve covered the supply side of the UFO phenomenon, but you’ve neglected the demand side. There is a huge element of religious belief in the UFO craze. People wanted to believe. Jack Womack’s recent chronicle of UFO literature, Flying Saucers Are Real!, makes this clear:

    http://anthology.net/book/flying-saucers-real/

    You can also see a lot this in the photo essay In Advance of the Landing: Folk Concepts of Outer Space, with a foreword by Tom Wolfe:

    http://a.co/cp2qo3r

    Two decades ago, I had my own (online) run-in with a devotee of a UFO cult, James Deardorff, a bona fide academic scientist who gave up tenure to pursue sympathetic “research” on literature emanating from the Billy Meier UFO cult:

    http://www.futureofmankind.co.uk/Billy_Meier/James_Deardorff

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  49. @bob sykes
    The claim that the Roswell debris was a spy balloon always seemed odd to me. To get to the USSR, it would have had to travel with the winds east, across the entire US, the Atlantic and all of Western and Central Europe. What are the odds of that happening?

    Roswell was most likely one of our rockets that went off course and crashed. It was pretty common at the time, we even had Army rockets going off course and crashing in Mexico. Remember Roswell happened during the wild and woolly days of rocketry. And one thing about the military, they don’t like discussing in public their screw-ups.

    That being said, Rosewell is a time waster and a nothingburger like Oak Island. No matter how much you dig you never find anything. Because there was never anything to find.

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  50. @Seth Largo
    The Japanese/German/Italian internment was wrong but understandable in context. (South American countries rounded them up, too.) This context, however, seems to be diminished year by year, so that I now see articles on Japanese internment that don't even mention Pearl Harbor, let alone the shelling of Santa Barbara.

    Nothing wrong about the interments at all. Japs, Germans, and Italians should have have been in the US to begin with.

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    • Replies: @J Clivas
    American civilians in the Philippines were treated far worse by the Japanese than their cousins interned in America were.
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  51. The world’s largest battleship…

    Kirk Douglas: “…This is the biggest boy I’ve ever seen… it’s like a bloody floating island…”

    Tom Tryon: “The Yamato… 80,000 tons.”

    Harm’s Way

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  52. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “There were German U Boats up and down the US East Coast and Gulf Coast.”

    German submarine U-537:

    “…holds the distinction of making the only armed German landing in North America during World War II, when her crew installed the automatic Weather Station Kurt in Martin Bay, Labrador on 22 October 1943…

    …The weather station was only discovered by accident by the Canadian authorities in 1981…”

    Some interesting pics, including of U-537 in Canada:

    “Lost Nazi Weather Station Kurt”, Stephen Hull, HeritageDaily, 2014:

    “… in 1943 a U-Boat installed a German weather station code named “Kurt” in Martin Bay, northern Labrador….

    …There were 26 similar stations manufactured by Siemens. Fourteen were established in Arctic and sub-Arctic areas… Two were supposed to be in North America… consisted of several measuring instruments, a telemetry system and a 150 watt Lorenz 150 FK-type transmitter…

    …Shortly after arriving some of the crew and Dr. Sommermeyer were assembling the station ¼ mile inland…

    …the only German military operation on land in North America during… World War II…”

    Weather Station Kurt:

    “…the station was camouflaged. Empty American cigarette packets were left around the site to deceive any Allied personnel that chanced upon it, and the equipment was marked as the property of the non-existent “Canadian Meteor Service”…

    …The crew worked through the night to install Kurt and repair their U-boat. They finished just 28 hours after dropping anchor…”

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  53. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    A really obscure part of WWII is the “war” in Greenland that pitted the Greenland Sledge Patrol and US Coast Guard against the German weather stations (mostly manned).

    “The Weather War”, May 16, 2014:

    “…one of the least heralded campaigns of World War II was the hunt for Axis weather stations set up in remote parts of Greenland…

    …The first direct combat between Germans and Americans… occurred during one of these patrols when a Coast Guard cutter… landing party went ashore and captured three German soldiers operating the weather station… This all… three months before America entered the war!…”

    Greenland in World War II, German weather stations:

    “…The German weather station Holzauge… was discovered by a team from the Sledge Patrol… The Germans realized they had been discovered, and gave chase to the team, who had to abandon their equipment (including their dog teams) and retreat to the station at Eskimonæs…

    …The Germans attacked Eskimonaes itself… before help could arrive, seizing and burning the station. Though unhurt, the entire Sledge Patrol contingent based there was forced to make a 400-mile trek to the station at Ella Island without sleds, food, or equipment. On their way back to Sabine, the Germans ambushed a three-man patrol at Sandodden, killing the leader, Corporal Eli Knudsen…

    …The German base… was then seized by a Coast Guard landing party, but all German personnel save one person had already been evacuated by a Dornier Do 26…

    …Two more skirmishes occurred between the Sledge Patrol and the Germans, leaving the Greenland force with two more dead and four wounded…

    …The last German weather station, Edelweiss II, was captured by U.S. Army forces… landed from the icebreaker USCGC Eastwind…”

    An interesting pic:

    Members of the German weather station Edelweiss II taken prisoner by US Army soldiers, 4 October 1944.

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  54. @Chris Mallory
    Nothing wrong about the interments at all. Japs, Germans, and Italians should have have been in the US to begin with.

    American civilians in the Philippines were treated far worse by the Japanese than their cousins interned in America were.

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  55. @Off The Street
    UFO interest uptick, SpaceX launch from Vandenburg last night.
    Coincidence?
    Nah.

    UFO interest uptick, SpaceX launch from Vandenburg last night.
    Coincidence?
    Nah.

    The luck of the iSteve?

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  56. @anonymous
    "about 300 were sighted making it across the Pacific."

    That US Forest Service web page states:


    "...Although 1,000 of these balloons reached North America, only 342 were ever sighted or found. Some of those that reached North America, but are not yet found, could conceivably surprise or injure future discoverers...

    ...the surprise air raid on Tokyo, led by Lt. Col. Doolittle, may have been one of the reasons for the Japanese renewed interest in the balloon program...

    ...The reborn army balloon program was code-named FUGO, an acronym which means "a wind ship weapon"...

    ...After all the weapons had been dropped, a small explosive/incendiary charge was supposed to destroy the balloon mechanism and paper bag, leaving practically no evidence of its presence...

    ...Somehow, the allied authorities in North America had persuaded the free press NOT to publish news of the balloon attacks. With a few relatively minor exceptions there were no published or broadcast accounts of the balloon attacks, which were actually all too well known and of great concern to allied military and civilian authorities. The Japanese did not believe our authorities could actually silence our free press, and therefore thought, no news must mean no significant results from the balloon attacks...

    ...Allied authorities were extremely concerned over the potential for major damage from balloon attacks...

    ...A little-known and seldom reported variation on the WWII balloon attacks was a British effort to launch balloon weapons against German-occupied Europe. The British discontinued their balloon attacks when some of their balloons came down in neutral Sweden..."

     

    Japanese balloon bombs ---- they are out there:

    "Beware Of Japanese Balloon Bombs", Linton Weeks, NPR History Dept., January 20, 2015:


    "Just a few months ago a couple of forestry workers in Lumby, British Columbia — about 250 miles north of the U.S. border — happened upon a 70-year-old Japanese balloon bomb...

    ...most are still unaccounted for...

    ...They appeared from northern Mexico to Alaska, and from Hawaii to Michigan. "When launched — in groups — they are said to have looked like jellyfish floating in the sky...

    ...Sightings of the airborne bombs began cropping up throughout the western U.S. in late 1944...

    ...landed in seven different Nebraska towns, including Omaha ...one balloon bomb was found 10 miles from Detroit...

    ...Over the years, the explosive devices have popped up here and there...

    ..."The bomb recently recovered in British Columbia — in October 2014 — "has been in the dirt for 70 years,"'...So how was the situation handled? "They put some C-4 on either side of this thing," Proce said, "and they blew it to smithereens."..."

     

    After 70 years you would have thought someone might have studied it a bit before blowing it to smithereens (but no doubt they had to quickly hide the evidence of the alien technology ;) ).

    Someone did do a great job of running a censorship program of all US news. It's taken about half a century for the Japanese program to become common knowledge.

    Similarly ULTRA (interception/decryption of German codes) was kept a secret for 29 years after the end of the war, despite the thousands of Brits who knew about it.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I have the condensed version of Admiral Samuel Eliot Morison's official history of the US Navy in WWII from the 1960s or so, and there's one point where, in hindsight, he's clearly trolling his readers that he knows something about the Anglo-Americans being able to read the German ciphers but they don't.
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  57. @Mr. Anon
    Research pilot Bill Dana, huh? So he really did have The Right Stuff.

    My name.......Jose Jimenez.

    I had to look that one up. (^_^)
    “Is that a crash helmet you’re wearing?”
    “Oh, I hope not!”

    Apropos of nothing, here’s a photo of the Bell X-2 being blatantly sexually harassed.

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  58. Here is an appropriate musical interlude:

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  59. @bob sykes
    The claim that the Roswell debris was a spy balloon always seemed odd to me. To get to the USSR, it would have had to travel with the winds east, across the entire US, the Atlantic and all of Western and Central Europe. What are the odds of that happening?

    I see no reason to assume the U.S. would have chosen to launch a balloon destined for the USSR, from a location within the CONUS. Assuming the government is telling the truth about Roswell, the balloon flight in New Mexico was presumably just some sort of test run. More likely, we’d just launch the balloon from West Germany, Norway, Turkey, etc. Or maybe Japan, or Alaska?

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  60. @YetAnotherAnon
    Similarly ULTRA (interception/decryption of German codes) was kept a secret for 29 years after the end of the war, despite the thousands of Brits who knew about it.

    I have the condensed version of Admiral Samuel Eliot Morison’s official history of the US Navy in WWII from the 1960s or so, and there’s one point where, in hindsight, he’s clearly trolling his readers that he knows something about the Anglo-Americans being able to read the German ciphers but they don’t.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    There's a great moment somewhere in the life of Rommel where every single supply ship for the Afrika Korps is getting nailed long before it reaches Libya, almost like the English know the schedules. One Christmas they use the older codes for no good reason, they're giving the Enigma a holiday break. That ship makes it through. Then they go back to using the Enigma. That right there ought to be the case against German efficiency.
    , @syonredux
    A nice piece on Morison's History of United States Naval Operations in World War II

    Morison also had the nerve to use “we” or “you,” and to speak on behalf of the nation—sometimes in the same sentence. (“However you look at it, the Battle for Leyte Gulf should be an imperishable part of our national heritage.”) Embedded reporters today guard against such a stance for fear they will give the appearance of bias, but Morison identified with his subjects and sources. “Historians in years to come may shoot this book full of holes,” he wrote in the preface to Volume 1, “but they can never recapture the feeling of desperate urgency in our planning and preparations, of the excitement of battle, of exultation over a difficult operation successfully concluded, of sorrow for shipmates who did not live to enjoy the victory.”

     

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/revisiting-samuel-eliot-morisons-landmark-history-63715/
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  61. @Steve Sailer
    I have the condensed version of Admiral Samuel Eliot Morison's official history of the US Navy in WWII from the 1960s or so, and there's one point where, in hindsight, he's clearly trolling his readers that he knows something about the Anglo-Americans being able to read the German ciphers but they don't.

    There’s a great moment somewhere in the life of Rommel where every single supply ship for the Afrika Korps is getting nailed long before it reaches Libya, almost like the English know the schedules. One Christmas they use the older codes for no good reason, they’re giving the Enigma a holiday break. That ship makes it through. Then they go back to using the Enigma. That right there ought to be the case against German efficiency.

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  62. @Whiskey
    There were German U Boats up and down the US East Coast and Gulf Coast. They sank shipping right off the Jersey Shore, and in the Gulf Coast. German u boats even penetrated and attacked shipping in the St. Lawrence Gulf: See here. Because Admiral King hated the British and refused convoy escorts, shipping was an easy target for U Boats with the US East Coast non-blackout lights providing easy illumination for target ships at night. Being silhouetted meant being a sitting duck.

    It wasn't until late 1943 and 1944 that improved radar, sonar, long range Naval air reconnaissance, and convoying produced attrition on the U boat force making them no longer able to operate in the US East Coast, Gulf Coast, Caribbean, and so on.

    The PBY Catalina was the best long-range recon plane in the USN’s arsenal in WWII. Its effectiveness at spotting U-Boats meant that we would win the Battle of the Atlantic by the end of 1943.

    Richard Overy’s outstanding “Why the Allies Won” devotes an entire chapter to the role that recon planes played in the Battle of the Atlantic. I highly recommend it, although I suspect that you, Whiskey, have already read it.

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    • Replies: @Discard
    No, the best USN recon plane was the PB4Y, known to the Army as the B-24. Faster, longer-ranged, higher ceiling, and much more heavily armed. PB4Ys were used mostly, if not entirely, in the Pacific. Over the Atlantic, B-24s were flown by the USAAF or the RAF.
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  63. @Mr. Anon
    Research pilot Bill Dana, huh? So he really did have The Right Stuff.

    My name.......Jose Jimenez.

    Hey, there’s a rule around here: if you make a “Right Stuff” reference (greatest movie of all time) then you gotta show a clip!

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  64. @Steve Sailer
    I have the condensed version of Admiral Samuel Eliot Morison's official history of the US Navy in WWII from the 1960s or so, and there's one point where, in hindsight, he's clearly trolling his readers that he knows something about the Anglo-Americans being able to read the German ciphers but they don't.

    A nice piece on Morison’s History of United States Naval Operations in World War II

    Morison also had the nerve to use “we” or “you,” and to speak on behalf of the nation—sometimes in the same sentence. (“However you look at it, the Battle for Leyte Gulf should be an imperishable part of our national heritage.”) Embedded reporters today guard against such a stance for fear they will give the appearance of bias, but Morison identified with his subjects and sources. “Historians in years to come may shoot this book full of holes,” he wrote in the preface to Volume 1, “but they can never recapture the feeling of desperate urgency in our planning and preparations, of the excitement of battle, of exultation over a difficult operation successfully concluded, of sorrow for shipmates who did not live to enjoy the victory.”

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/revisiting-samuel-eliot-morisons-landmark-history-63715/

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  65. My theory about UFOs, aliens, and even government conspiracies, is that when modern science drove out the old superstitions, new ones arose to take their place. People are less likely to believe in ghosts, revenants, and werewolves nowadays, but perhaps aliens seem more plausible.

    Here’s an illustration: Spiderman, in his original incarnation, gained his powers when bitten by a radioactive spider. Radiation was the all-purpose transformative agent in those days: it’s used to explain the presence of the supernatural in just about every 50′s B-movie and comic book.

    But when they made the Spiderman movies in the early 2000′s, that was changed to a genetically-modified spider. Presumably it was felt that radiation was too well understood for a modern audience to accept that it could make you gain the powers of a spider. (At most you’d get radiation poisoning.) Genetic engineering, on the other hand, is still pretty mysterious as far as most people are concerned, so the premise holds.

    But if Spiderman had been written a few hundred years earlier, it would have been a magic spider, and no-one would have had trouble believing it.

    Modern people are of course far too sophisticated to frightened by magic. Instead, we’re frightened of aliens, or the cannibal paedophile Rothschilds that secretly run the world. (See “Q anon”.)

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  66. Ironically, one once knocked out power to the Hanford plant making A-bomb plutonium.

    Also ironically, the few children killed in the Pearl Harbor bombing were Japanese-Americans.

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  67. @syonredux

    As the above mentions, one reason the US was probably so leary about news getting out about the programs was the balloons could have been used for biowarfare, which the Japanese were known to be experimenting with.
     
    Indeed:

    Prisoners were injected with diseases, disguised as vaccinations,[24] to study their effects. To study the effects of untreated venereal diseases, male and female prisoners were deliberately infected with syphilis and gonorrhoea, then studied. Prisoners were also repeatedly subject to rape by guards.[25]

    Plague fleas, infected clothing and infected supplies encased in bombs were dropped on various targets. The resulting cholera, anthrax, and plague were estimated to have killed around and possibly more than 400,000 Chinese civilians.[26] Tularemia was tested on Chinese civilians.[27]

    Unit 731 and its affiliated units (Unit 1644 and Unit 100 among others) were involved in research, development and experimental deployment of epidemic-creating biowarfare weapons in assaults against the Chinese populace (both civilian and military) throughout World War II. Plague-infested fleas, bred in the laboratories of Unit 731 and Unit 1644, were spread by low-flying airplanes upon Chinese cities, coastal Ningbo in 1940, and Changde, Hunan Province, in 1941. This military aerial spraying killed thousands of people with bubonic plague epidemics.[28]
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731#Germ_warfare_attacks

    The wiki page you linked to is very painful to read. Such tales remind us that original sin is not an outlandish idea.

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?

    We are inundated with messages telling us we should feel guilty because our government interred people of Japanese descent who were living on the Pacific coast when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Is there any evidence that any such experimentation was carried out by American authorities on those people?

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?
     
    Gee, how could Italian and Chinese immigrants, with their tight family structure and low neighborhood crime rates, turn out to be the kings of organized crimes? That doesn't make sense... until it does. A lot.

    Collective violence takes organizational powers.


    We are inundated with messages telling us we should feel guilty because our government interred people of Japanese descent
     
    ...but the president and the party guilty of this are never to be criticized for it. 1984 was a satire of Soviet "trials", but with less overt violence could be read as a take on the Roosevelt Administration as well.

    Is there any evidence that any such experimentation was carried out by American authorities on those people?
     
    "Those people" were by-and-large our people. We ourselves showed no reluctance to firebomb their cousins abroad regardless of age or sex. We laugh at the Germans' excuses for sinking the Lusitania, then we dust them off to cover our own asses after the next war.
    , @Mr. Anon

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?
     
    How could the people of America, whom we generally thing of as being generous, christian, and fair-minded, have perpetrated the systematic bombing of cities with high-explosives, incendiaries, and (ultimately) nuclear weapons, that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, including women and children?
    , @El Dato

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?
     
    Heuristics:

    - Never believe you are the people rightfully descended from some kind of metaphysical higher power, Amaterasu or otherwise, because this justifies anything.
    - Never let the people defer to political hierarchical authority and "they know best" mindset. By default, people strutting around in uniforms and with all sort of childish badges should be ridiculed, not venered.
    - Never let convinced nationalists and their goons take the reins of power.
    - Keep government small and keep shotguns wired to the heads of politicians and civil serpents. Withstand all efforts at increasing government size with deadly force if you must.
    - Never let psychopaths and sociopaths take responsibility or submit proposals for funding. In fact, sterilize psychopaths (testing today is objective and machinic) and send them to a lonely Pacific Island. This would also make life much easier though less colorful in private companies.
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  68. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Cold War era high-altitude balloon launches (before satellites, not so many options):

    Skyhook shipback

    Valley Forge, Skyhook launch

    Skyhook balloon:

    “…In 1957 the US Navy began an operational aerology system known as Transosonde (trans-ocean sounding), consisting of almost daily balloon flights across the Pacific Ocean from Japan…”

    Project Moby Dick:

    “…”Project 119L” was a Cold War reconnaissance operation by the U.S. Air Force in which large balloons floated cameras over the Soviet Union. The spy balloons would photograph sensitive Soviet sites and either hang in the air or land in the Sea of Japan until either a crew flying the C-119 Flying Boxcar or a naval vessel retrieved them… the Soviets discovered what they (accurately) believed to be the remnants of a U.S. spy camera in February 1956. Other reconnaissance balloon projects… included Project Skyhook, Project Mogul, Project Grandson, and Project Genetrix

    Project Flying Cloud, Weapons System 124A, was a derived concept to use balloons to deliver weapons of mass destcruction.”….

    Flying Cloud, the US version of the Japanese balloon bomb program:

    “…Air Force initiated WS-124A in early 1953 to develop a method of delivering weaponry to targets in the Soviet Union using hydrogen balloons…

    …WS-124A balloons… within the jet stream; as weather forecasts were considered to be sufficiently accurate to forecast approximately three days of wind patterns, the design flight duration was for 60 hours, in which they were expected to cover a distance of 1,500 nautical miles (1,700 mi; 2,800 km)…

    …the expected target area was 360 nautical miles (410 mi; 670 km) by 480 nautical miles (550 mi; 890 km)… payloads involved chemical and biological weaponry… incendiary bombs, for starting forest fires, were also considered… Some sources claim that dirty bombs were also considered…

    …Flight tests… started on 8 October 1954… by 13 December, 41 balloons had been launched, 25 of which were fully operational test flights… only six of the balloons reached their intended target area, while five more were considered to be close enough… cancelled… weather forecasts were simply not accurate enough for the system to be operationally feasible…”

    The Skeptical Inquirer has had a number of decent stories on these programs:

    “The Cold War’s Classified Skyhook Program: A Participant’s Revelations”, B.D. Gildenberg, Skeptical Inquirer, Volume 28.3, May / June 2004.

    Skeptical Inquirer has what looks like a good article on the (“70 years of Roswell”) in their current 2017 Nov/Dec issue. (yeah, it was one of these balloons.)

    Here’s some trivia factoids that can proably win bar bets:

    Project Genetrix:

    “…total of 516 high-altitude vehicles were launched

    …used to monitor the Soviet Union for such things as nuclear tests, and returned photography of more than 1.1 million square miles (more than 2.8 million square km) of the Sino-Soviet block…

    …Top-secret high-altitude balloon programs such as Moby Dick, Moby Dick High and 119L may account for many of the UFO sightings starting around the mid-20th century. The U-2 spy plane was later developed to replace the Genetrix balloons.

    …The Soviets recovered many of these balloons and their temperature-resistant and radiation-hardened film would later be used in the Luna 3 probe to capture the first images of the far side of the Moon.

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  69. the Battle of Los Angeles, a mass freakout

    My cynical suspicion is that the Japanese-Californians were interned not so much because they were a danger to us, but because Californians were a danger to them, and random race-based murders would discredit the holiness of the war movement.

    There were still a lot of ignorant, marginally-civilized white folks in the state in those days. Nothing else explains FDR carrying it three times up to that point.

    Today’s white Californian may be a few rungs up on the class ladder, but he’s just as ignorant, it seems. Or lying.

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    • Replies: @anonguy

    My cynical suspicion is that the Japanese-Californians were interned not so much because they were a danger to us, but because Californians were a danger to them, and random race-based murders would discredit the holiness of the war movement.
     
    It was a security theater publicity stunt.

    Hawaii was well, well north of 30% Japanese Americans then and obviously in a strategically critical location from which much of the Pacific War was being waged.

    And there had been the Niihau incident too.

    But they didn't round up the Japanese Americans in Hawaii because they figured the state couldn't function without them.

    If the threat wasn't enough to round up Japanese Americans in Hawaii, it wasn't enough to round up Japanese Americans anywhere.

    However, the 2d Marine Division was quarantined for a while on the Big Island after Tarawa to keep them separated from the Japanese Americans of Hawaii as authorities did fear for their safety from those Marines.

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  70. @Old fogey
    The wiki page you linked to is very painful to read. Such tales remind us that original sin is not an outlandish idea.

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?

    We are inundated with messages telling us we should feel guilty because our government interred people of Japanese descent who were living on the Pacific coast when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Is there any evidence that any such experimentation was carried out by American authorities on those people?

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?

    Gee, how could Italian and Chinese immigrants, with their tight family structure and low neighborhood crime rates, turn out to be the kings of organized crimes? That doesn’t make sense… until it does. A lot.

    Collective violence takes organizational powers.

    We are inundated with messages telling us we should feel guilty because our government interred people of Japanese descent

    …but the president and the party guilty of this are never to be criticized for it. 1984 was a satire of Soviet “trials”, but with less overt violence could be read as a take on the Roosevelt Administration as well.

    Is there any evidence that any such experimentation was carried out by American authorities on those people?

    “Those people” were by-and-large our people. We ourselves showed no reluctance to firebomb their cousins abroad regardless of age or sex. We laugh at the Germans’ excuses for sinking the Lusitania, then we dust them off to cover our own asses after the next war.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    …but the president and the party guilty of this are never to be criticized for it. 1984 was a satire of Soviet “trials”, but with less overt violence could be read as a take on the Roosevelt Administration as well.
     
    Don't worry. TN Coates has condemned FDR for the monstrous crime called redlining. Combine that with Roosevelt's anti- mass immigration policies......Well, let's just say that FDR's rep in the White minority America of the near future looks bleak....
    , @El Dato

    1984 was a satire of Soviet “trials”, but with less overt violence could be read as a take on the Roosevelt Administration as well.
     
    Very no.

    "Animal Farm" was the satire of Sovietism/Stalinism, the very pointy end Orwell got a feel of in Catalonia (through instant Hitlerization).

    "1984" was about where British Socialism would lead if it continued in its way (4 January 1884 was the creation of the Fabian Society), a very proggy outfit ("for the betterment of society")

    From
    The 60th Anniversary of Orwell’s 1984
    :


    Orwell foresaw how the coming generations of younger Fabians building on the precedent of universal healthcare would employ the emergent welfare state, then, bloated by obedient Left intellectuals intent on increasing governmental power, could become dictatorial. In 1984, instead of bringing the promised peace, truth, love, and plenty, new Fabians would construct enormous ministries devoted to war, deceit, and hatred. In secret, this future generation of Fabians would create shortages, and use fears engendered by the shortages to impose Draconian governmental controls.
     
    But I thought we were talking UFOs and Outside Context Problems?
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  71. Steve Sailer: “Does the UFO Era Trace Back to the Japanese Balloon Bombing of the USA in 1944-45?”

    Jesus Steve, try looking up ‘Foo Fighter’ on Wikipedia.

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  72. @Old fogey
    The wiki page you linked to is very painful to read. Such tales remind us that original sin is not an outlandish idea.

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?

    We are inundated with messages telling us we should feel guilty because our government interred people of Japanese descent who were living on the Pacific coast when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Is there any evidence that any such experimentation was carried out by American authorities on those people?

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?

    How could the people of America, whom we generally thing of as being generous, christian, and fair-minded, have perpetrated the systematic bombing of cities with high-explosives, incendiaries, and (ultimately) nuclear weapons, that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, including women and children?

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?

    How could the people of America, whom we generally thing of as being generous, christian, and fair-minded, have perpetrated the systematic bombing of cities with high-explosives, incendiaries, and (ultimately) nuclear weapons, that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, including women and children?
     
    Atrocity pissing contests, eh? I'm pretty sure that the Germans and the Japanese beat the Anglos in that category in WW2....Which isn't to say that they didn't do their fair share of unpleasantness....just that the Axis worked overtime at it...
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  73. @Reg Cæsar

    the Battle of Los Angeles, a mass freakout
     
    My cynical suspicion is that the Japanese-Californians were interned not so much because they were a danger to us, but because Californians were a danger to them, and random race-based murders would discredit the holiness of the war movement.

    There were still a lot of ignorant, marginally-civilized white folks in the state in those days. Nothing else explains FDR carrying it three times up to that point.

    Today's white Californian may be a few rungs up on the class ladder, but he's just as ignorant, it seems. Or lying.

    My cynical suspicion is that the Japanese-Californians were interned not so much because they were a danger to us, but because Californians were a danger to them, and random race-based murders would discredit the holiness of the war movement.

    It was a security theater publicity stunt.

    Hawaii was well, well north of 30% Japanese Americans then and obviously in a strategically critical location from which much of the Pacific War was being waged.

    And there had been the Niihau incident too.

    But they didn’t round up the Japanese Americans in Hawaii because they figured the state couldn’t function without them.

    If the threat wasn’t enough to round up Japanese Americans in Hawaii, it wasn’t enough to round up Japanese Americans anywhere.

    However, the 2d Marine Division was quarantined for a while on the Big Island after Tarawa to keep them separated from the Japanese Americans of Hawaii as authorities did fear for their safety from those Marines.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Filipinos in California attacked Japanese-Americans in 1941-42 in vengeance for Japanese war crimes in the Philippines. I haven't heard of Chinese attacking Japanese in California, but that was probably a worry too.

    The FDR administration over-reacted in interning West Coast Japanese-Americans, but they had a lot on their plates in early 1942. They could have called off internment after the Battle of Midway on 6/4/1942 removed the threat to the West Coast posed by the Japanese Navy, but by then there was a lot of bureaucratic momentum built up. Plus, the FDR administration was quite leftist and they therefore saw the Japanese as fascist and thus bad, while modern Americans see them as nowhite and thus good.

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  74. @Reg Cæsar

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?
     
    Gee, how could Italian and Chinese immigrants, with their tight family structure and low neighborhood crime rates, turn out to be the kings of organized crimes? That doesn't make sense... until it does. A lot.

    Collective violence takes organizational powers.


    We are inundated with messages telling us we should feel guilty because our government interred people of Japanese descent
     
    ...but the president and the party guilty of this are never to be criticized for it. 1984 was a satire of Soviet "trials", but with less overt violence could be read as a take on the Roosevelt Administration as well.

    Is there any evidence that any such experimentation was carried out by American authorities on those people?
     
    "Those people" were by-and-large our people. We ourselves showed no reluctance to firebomb their cousins abroad regardless of age or sex. We laugh at the Germans' excuses for sinking the Lusitania, then we dust them off to cover our own asses after the next war.

    …but the president and the party guilty of this are never to be criticized for it. 1984 was a satire of Soviet “trials”, but with less overt violence could be read as a take on the Roosevelt Administration as well.

    Don’t worry. TN Coates has condemned FDR for the monstrous crime called redlining. Combine that with Roosevelt’s anti- mass immigration policies……Well, let’s just say that FDR’s rep in the White minority America of the near future looks bleak….

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  75. @Reg Cæsar

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?
     
    Gee, how could Italian and Chinese immigrants, with their tight family structure and low neighborhood crime rates, turn out to be the kings of organized crimes? That doesn't make sense... until it does. A lot.

    Collective violence takes organizational powers.


    We are inundated with messages telling us we should feel guilty because our government interred people of Japanese descent
     
    ...but the president and the party guilty of this are never to be criticized for it. 1984 was a satire of Soviet "trials", but with less overt violence could be read as a take on the Roosevelt Administration as well.

    Is there any evidence that any such experimentation was carried out by American authorities on those people?
     
    "Those people" were by-and-large our people. We ourselves showed no reluctance to firebomb their cousins abroad regardless of age or sex. We laugh at the Germans' excuses for sinking the Lusitania, then we dust them off to cover our own asses after the next war.

    1984 was a satire of Soviet “trials”, but with less overt violence could be read as a take on the Roosevelt Administration as well.

    Very no.

    “Animal Farm” was the satire of Sovietism/Stalinism, the very pointy end Orwell got a feel of in Catalonia (through instant Hitlerization).

    “1984″ was about where British Socialism would lead if it continued in its way (4 January 1884 was the creation of the Fabian Society), a very proggy outfit (“for the betterment of society”)

    From
    The 60th Anniversary of Orwell’s 1984
    :

    Orwell foresaw how the coming generations of younger Fabians building on the precedent of universal healthcare would employ the emergent welfare state, then, bloated by obedient Left intellectuals intent on increasing governmental power, could become dictatorial. In 1984, instead of bringing the promised peace, truth, love, and plenty, new Fabians would construct enormous ministries devoted to war, deceit, and hatred. In secret, this future generation of Fabians would create shortages, and use fears engendered by the shortages to impose Draconian governmental controls.

    But I thought we were talking UFOs and Outside Context Problems?

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    “1984″ was about where British Socialism would lead if it continued in its way
     
    It was satire nonetheless, as were just about all of Orwell's fictional works. And much of 1984's content is as much or more Soviet than Fabian, e.g., the Eurasia/Eastasia bit (ever come across the surnames Seeger or Trumbo?), and the sacrifice of personal relationships to politics, as with Julia. Not that the Fabians were above that, either. But they didn't bring it to blood.

    Speaking of personal relationships, Leon Trotsky was murdered right after he and Frida cuckolded equally communist Diego. (Hey, Salma, didn't Harvey's interest in producing her laudatory biopic clue you in that something was wrong with the man?)

    That crime invites the personal-or-political question, just as Emmett Till does the persona-or-racial one. (The scandal in the latter wasn't the murder itself, but the trial.)

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  76. @Old fogey
    The wiki page you linked to is very painful to read. Such tales remind us that original sin is not an outlandish idea.

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?

    We are inundated with messages telling us we should feel guilty because our government interred people of Japanese descent who were living on the Pacific coast when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Is there any evidence that any such experimentation was carried out by American authorities on those people?

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?

    Heuristics:

    - Never believe you are the people rightfully descended from some kind of metaphysical higher power, Amaterasu or otherwise, because this justifies anything.
    - Never let the people defer to political hierarchical authority and “they know best” mindset. By default, people strutting around in uniforms and with all sort of childish badges should be ridiculed, not venered.
    - Never let convinced nationalists and their goons take the reins of power.
    - Keep government small and keep shotguns wired to the heads of politicians and civil serpents. Withstand all efforts at increasing government size with deadly force if you must.
    - Never let psychopaths and sociopaths take responsibility or submit proposals for funding. In fact, sterilize psychopaths (testing today is objective and machinic) and send them to a lonely Pacific Island. This would also make life much easier though less colorful in private companies.

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  77. @anonguy

    My cynical suspicion is that the Japanese-Californians were interned not so much because they were a danger to us, but because Californians were a danger to them, and random race-based murders would discredit the holiness of the war movement.
     
    It was a security theater publicity stunt.

    Hawaii was well, well north of 30% Japanese Americans then and obviously in a strategically critical location from which much of the Pacific War was being waged.

    And there had been the Niihau incident too.

    But they didn't round up the Japanese Americans in Hawaii because they figured the state couldn't function without them.

    If the threat wasn't enough to round up Japanese Americans in Hawaii, it wasn't enough to round up Japanese Americans anywhere.

    However, the 2d Marine Division was quarantined for a while on the Big Island after Tarawa to keep them separated from the Japanese Americans of Hawaii as authorities did fear for their safety from those Marines.

    Filipinos in California attacked Japanese-Americans in 1941-42 in vengeance for Japanese war crimes in the Philippines. I haven’t heard of Chinese attacking Japanese in California, but that was probably a worry too.

    The FDR administration over-reacted in interning West Coast Japanese-Americans, but they had a lot on their plates in early 1942. They could have called off internment after the Battle of Midway on 6/4/1942 removed the threat to the West Coast posed by the Japanese Navy, but by then there was a lot of bureaucratic momentum built up. Plus, the FDR administration was quite leftist and they therefore saw the Japanese as fascist and thus bad, while modern Americans see them as nowhite and thus good.

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    The internment so were just another piece of the New Deal. They were fed, weren't they? And housed.
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  78. @NJ Transit Commuter
    OT, but you raised the topic, Steve. Clifton Sprague and his tiny Taffy 3 Task Force are one of the amazing heroic stories of the US Navy. Destroyers charging cruisers and battleships in a suicide mission to save their brethren in defenseless escort carriers chase off the Japanese combined fleet. Why no one’s ever made a film about it amazes me.

    If the Japanese fleet just does what it should have been easily able to do, (slap aside the destroyers and planes attacking with small arms) it smashes MacArthur’s landing force and sends its supplies to the bottom of the Pacific.

    Agree completely. A lot 0f brave men died that day while Halsey farting around chasing phantoms 90 miles north. There is a reason there are Nimitz carriers and not Halsey carriers.

    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leyte_Gulf
    “Halsey had consciously and deliberately left the San Bernardino Strait absolutely unguarded. ”

    But it would not make a good movie. Too many white guys being too masculine.

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  79. @El Dato
    I don't think the nukes changed things all that much. Also, military targets would have been nice. But this is an old discussion.

    I think it was the dual factor of the atomic bombings + Soviet invasion of Manchuria. Without both shock factors, the Emperor wouldn’t have overrun the War Ministry. Hirohito had already been thinking about ever since what the Japanese called “The Night of Black Snow” in March (which, contrary to pop culture, killed more people than Hiroshima or Nagasaki), but it really took a huge psychological shock to get the inertia out of the way.

    (Even OTL, the hardliners *still* tried after the fact: Kyujo Incident.)

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  80. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The Japanese interment probably can’t be separated from efforts to combat Japanese espionage. As with news about balloon bombs, a big hammer was used. Western intelligence agencies had failed to penetrate Japanese intelligence. So instead of trying to identify individual Japanese intelligence operatives, they put the whole population on ice.

    This seems to have worked. One example was the Battle of Midway Chicago Tribune front-page press-leak that ‘gave away the store’ about US cracking the Japanese codes. Everyone assumed the Japanse would know all about it, but as it turned out Japanese intelligence did not notice the story:

    “Unsealed 75 years after Battle of Midway: New details of alarming WWII press leak”, Michael E. Ruane, Washington Post, June 6 2017:

    “…the Chicago Sunday Tribune trumpeted news of a stunning American victory over a Japanese armada at the Battle of Midway.

    “Jap Fleet Smashed by U.S.; 2 Carriers Sunk at Midway: 13 to 15 Nippon Ships Hit; Pacific Battle Rages,” the front-page headlines read. And in the center of the page, an intriguing side story: “Navy Had Word of Jap Plan to Strike at Sea.”.

    It was a fascinating, and detailed, description of much of what American intelligence knew beforehand of the enemy’s fleet and plans. Indeed, it was too detailed.

    The report – 14 paragraphs long – suggested a secret U.S. intelligence coup, and became one of the biggest and potentially damaging news leaks of World War II.

    …hinted that the United States had cracked a Japanese communications code, sparking fury in the Navy and the administration of President Franklin D. Roosevelt. It also led to a sensitive grand jury investigation whose testimony would be sealed for more than seven decades.

    …”…the only time in American history that the United States government has … taken steps toward prosecuting a member of the media under the Espionage Act,”…

    …”The strength of the Japanese forces with which the American Navy is battling . . . was well known in American naval circles several days before the battle began,” the… report began. “The advance information enabled the American Navy to make full use of air attacks on the approaching Japanese ships.”…

    …The story went on to describe the three parts of the planned Japanese attack… It detailed how many ships were involved, and named the ships and their types

    …”The Navy . . . thought any reasonably intelligent person reading that story would say, ‘Hey, the American Navy has broken the Imperial Navy’s operational code.’ “…’

    …story did not help the Japanese.

    “They never heard of the article”…”

    “1942 Tribune story implied Americans cracked Japanese code. Documents show why reporter not indicted”,
    Katherine Rosenberg-Douglas, Chicago Tribune, October 28 2017:

    “…Documents from the case were unsealed… in late 2016 after a three-year court battle… declined to indict Tribune war correspondent… because Adm. Ernest J. King… ”…didn’t want to risk even more media attention and the chance that Japanese leaders would change the code…”…

    …They didn’t so much fear Japanese agents in America, but that somehow all the publicity of the trial would come to the attention of the Japanese…

    …The Imperial Japanese Navy never dramatically changed its code… IJN leaders never realized their code had been broken…”

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  81. @Mr. Anon

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?
     
    How could the people of America, whom we generally thing of as being generous, christian, and fair-minded, have perpetrated the systematic bombing of cities with high-explosives, incendiaries, and (ultimately) nuclear weapons, that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, including women and children?

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?

    How could the people of America, whom we generally thing of as being generous, christian, and fair-minded, have perpetrated the systematic bombing of cities with high-explosives, incendiaries, and (ultimately) nuclear weapons, that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, including women and children?

    Atrocity pissing contests, eh? I’m pretty sure that the Germans and the Japanese beat the Anglos in that category in WW2….Which isn’t to say that they didn’t do their fair share of unpleasantness….just that the Axis worked overtime at it…

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    I'm pointing out that the allies acted barbarically too. What's your f**king problem with that?

    So.............Ed Gein is not a bad guy, because he didn't kill as many people as Ted Bundy?

    Dead german and japanese kids who were burned alive in their homes were just as dead as dead jewish kids who were shot by the Ensatzgruppen in the Ukraine. The one is no less innocent than the other.

    , @Mr. Anon

    Atrocity pissing contests, eh?
     
    Well, that's what your engaging in.
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  82. @syonredux

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?

    How could the people of America, whom we generally thing of as being generous, christian, and fair-minded, have perpetrated the systematic bombing of cities with high-explosives, incendiaries, and (ultimately) nuclear weapons, that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, including women and children?
     
    Atrocity pissing contests, eh? I'm pretty sure that the Germans and the Japanese beat the Anglos in that category in WW2....Which isn't to say that they didn't do their fair share of unpleasantness....just that the Axis worked overtime at it...

    I’m pointing out that the allies acted barbarically too. What’s your f**king problem with that?

    So………….Ed Gein is not a bad guy, because he didn’t kill as many people as Ted Bundy?

    Dead german and japanese kids who were burned alive in their homes were just as dead as dead jewish kids who were shot by the Ensatzgruppen in the Ukraine. The one is no less innocent than the other.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    I’m pointing out that the allies acted barbarically too. What’s your f**king problem with that?
     
    Just pointing out that the Japanese and the Germans are tough to beat when it comes to atrocities....

    So………….Ed Gein is not a bad guy, because he didn’t kill as many people as Ted Bundy?
     
    Well, not as bad a guy.....

    Dead german and japanese kids who were burned alive in their homes were just as dead as dead jewish kids who were shot by the Ensatzgruppen in the Ukraine. The one is no less innocent than the other.
     
    Yeah, dead is dead. It's just that the corpse-piles built by the Germans and the Japanese in WW2 are significantly larger than the ones built by the Anglos....
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  83. @Mr. Anon
    I'm pointing out that the allies acted barbarically too. What's your f**king problem with that?

    So.............Ed Gein is not a bad guy, because he didn't kill as many people as Ted Bundy?

    Dead german and japanese kids who were burned alive in their homes were just as dead as dead jewish kids who were shot by the Ensatzgruppen in the Ukraine. The one is no less innocent than the other.

    I’m pointing out that the allies acted barbarically too. What’s your f**king problem with that?

    Just pointing out that the Japanese and the Germans are tough to beat when it comes to atrocities….

    So………….Ed Gein is not a bad guy, because he didn’t kill as many people as Ted Bundy?

    Well, not as bad a guy…..

    Dead german and japanese kids who were burned alive in their homes were just as dead as dead jewish kids who were shot by the Ensatzgruppen in the Ukraine. The one is no less innocent than the other.

    Yeah, dead is dead. It’s just that the corpse-piles built by the Germans and the Japanese in WW2 are significantly larger than the ones built by the Anglos….

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Yeah, dead is dead. It’s just that the corpse-piles built by the Germans and the Japanese in WW2 are significantly larger than the ones built by the Anglos….
     
    And which pile gets talked about more in the United States? Maybe some self-reflection is warranted. Whenever we pat ourselves on the back for winning WWII (always, of course, forgetting the Russians), that we congratulate ourselves on a victory we attained while murdering hundreds of thousands of innocents.

    So are you saying it's okay then? War atrocities are like Golf - low score wins, even if it's well above par?

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  84. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    A nice overview article:

    “Balloon Wars: Part 16 of the Secret History of Silicon Valley”, January 28, 2010 by Steve Blank.

    Another aspect of balloon overflights of the USSR:

    “Balloon Reconnaissance, History”, Judson Knight, Encylopedial.com, 2004:

    “…Finally, the most curious benefit of GENETRIX was the fact that a steel bar that secured the envelope, cameras, and ballasting equipment happened to measure 2.99 feet (91 cm)—exactly the same size as the wavelength of Soviet radar known as TOKEN to NATO… forces. Because it resonated when TOKEN pulses hit it, the bar helped NATO radar operators locate previously unknown radar installations. This, too, aided the U-2 project.”

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  85. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The Soviets developed a special aircraft to shoot down US recon balloons. Probably the only dedicated anti-balloon “foo-fighter” in existence (also the closest thing the USSR had to a U-2). Like the U-S, still flying and being modernized:

    Myasishchev M-55:

    “…During the 1950s and 1960s the United States instituted several programs using high-altitude reconnaissance balloons, released over friendly territory to ascend into the jetstream and be transported over the Soviet Union and People’s Republic of China…

    …To combat these high-altitude balloons, Myasishchev proposed Subject 34 a single-seat turbojet-powered twin-boom high-aspect-ratio aircraft…

    …the threat receded due to the success of the Keyhole reconnaissance satellite…

    …The M-17 balloon-interceptor-based model was terminated in 1987…

    …The M-55 set a total of 15 FAI world records, all of which still stand today…

    …A number of M-55 Geophysica remain in service, performing in research roles…”

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  86. Also from the 19th century:
    Through arctic Lapland, by Charles John Cutcliffe Wright Hyne and Cecil Hayter, 1898.

    Lapp saw a big green fish over Lake Inari which flew south

    http://books.google.com/books?id=I5VJAAAAMAAJ&pg=138

    carpenters out in the bush saw an enormous green bird without wings

    http://books.google.com/books?id=I5VJAAAAMAAJ&pg=235

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  87. @syonredux

    I’m pointing out that the allies acted barbarically too. What’s your f**king problem with that?
     
    Just pointing out that the Japanese and the Germans are tough to beat when it comes to atrocities....

    So………….Ed Gein is not a bad guy, because he didn’t kill as many people as Ted Bundy?
     
    Well, not as bad a guy.....

    Dead german and japanese kids who were burned alive in their homes were just as dead as dead jewish kids who were shot by the Ensatzgruppen in the Ukraine. The one is no less innocent than the other.
     
    Yeah, dead is dead. It's just that the corpse-piles built by the Germans and the Japanese in WW2 are significantly larger than the ones built by the Anglos....

    Yeah, dead is dead. It’s just that the corpse-piles built by the Germans and the Japanese in WW2 are significantly larger than the ones built by the Anglos….

    And which pile gets talked about more in the United States? Maybe some self-reflection is warranted. Whenever we pat ourselves on the back for winning WWII (always, of course, forgetting the Russians), that we congratulate ourselves on a victory we attained while murdering hundreds of thousands of innocents.

    So are you saying it’s okay then? War atrocities are like Golf – low score wins, even if it’s well above par?

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Yeah, dead is dead. It’s just that the corpse-piles built by the Germans and the Japanese in WW2 are significantly larger than the ones built by the Anglos….

    And which pile gets talked about more in the United States?
     
    Well, the guy with the bigger pile usually dominates the conversation.....In a conversation about the richest men in history, nobody's going to waste time talking about a guy who owns a single second-hand car dealership.....

    Maybe some self-reflection is warranted. Whenever we pat ourselves on the back for winning WWII (always, of course, forgetting the Russians),
     
    Hey, I'm always willing to acknowledge that the USSR deserves the lion's share of the credit for defeating Nazi Germany. Indeed, I like pointing out to SJWs that the war in Europe was largely a contest between Hitler and Stalin....

    that we congratulate ourselves on a victory we attained while murdering hundreds of thousands of innocents.

    So are you saying it’s okay then? War atrocities are like Golf – low score wins, even if it’s well above par?

     

    You mean, am I happy about what Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris and Curtis LeMay did during WW2? No, I'm not.

    As for the "low score wins".....Well, we are talking about WW2, the largest organized slaughter in human history.....
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  88. @syonredux

    How could the people of Japan, who we generally think of as being intelligent and polite, have perpetrated such despicable, even barbaric acts?

    How could the people of America, whom we generally thing of as being generous, christian, and fair-minded, have perpetrated the systematic bombing of cities with high-explosives, incendiaries, and (ultimately) nuclear weapons, that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians, including women and children?
     
    Atrocity pissing contests, eh? I'm pretty sure that the Germans and the Japanese beat the Anglos in that category in WW2....Which isn't to say that they didn't do their fair share of unpleasantness....just that the Axis worked overtime at it...

    Atrocity pissing contests, eh?

    Well, that’s what your engaging in.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Atrocity pissing contests, eh?

    Well, that’s what your engaging in.
     
    And the Anglos lose to the Axis in that particular contest....
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  89. @Mr. Anon

    Atrocity pissing contests, eh?
     
    Well, that's what your engaging in.

    Atrocity pissing contests, eh?

    Well, that’s what your engaging in.

    And the Anglos lose to the Axis in that particular contest….

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    And the Anglos lose to the Axis in that particular contest….
     
    The real losers were all the people who - you know - wound up dead.
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  90. @Mr. Anon

    Yeah, dead is dead. It’s just that the corpse-piles built by the Germans and the Japanese in WW2 are significantly larger than the ones built by the Anglos….
     
    And which pile gets talked about more in the United States? Maybe some self-reflection is warranted. Whenever we pat ourselves on the back for winning WWII (always, of course, forgetting the Russians), that we congratulate ourselves on a victory we attained while murdering hundreds of thousands of innocents.

    So are you saying it's okay then? War atrocities are like Golf - low score wins, even if it's well above par?

    Yeah, dead is dead. It’s just that the corpse-piles built by the Germans and the Japanese in WW2 are significantly larger than the ones built by the Anglos….

    And which pile gets talked about more in the United States?

    Well, the guy with the bigger pile usually dominates the conversation…..In a conversation about the richest men in history, nobody’s going to waste time talking about a guy who owns a single second-hand car dealership…..

    Maybe some self-reflection is warranted. Whenever we pat ourselves on the back for winning WWII (always, of course, forgetting the Russians),

    Hey, I’m always willing to acknowledge that the USSR deserves the lion’s share of the credit for defeating Nazi Germany. Indeed, I like pointing out to SJWs that the war in Europe was largely a contest between Hitler and Stalin….

    that we congratulate ourselves on a victory we attained while murdering hundreds of thousands of innocents.

    So are you saying it’s okay then? War atrocities are like Golf – low score wins, even if it’s well above par?

    You mean, am I happy about what Sir Arthur “Bomber” Harris and Curtis LeMay did during WW2? No, I’m not.

    As for the “low score wins”…..Well, we are talking about WW2, the largest organized slaughter in human history…..

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    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    Well, the guy with the bigger pile usually dominates the conversation…..In a conversation about the richest men in history, nobody’s going to waste time talking about a guy who owns a single second-hand car dealership…..
     
    What about the guy who rakes it in faster? We killed at a much higher rate in terms of bodies per incident. The fire-storm raid on Tokyo killed 120,000 people in a single night. Is that something to be proud of? Is that something that warrants no reflection? Had the war gone on a little longer - who knows - we might have caught up with axis.

    You mean, am I happy about what Sir Arthur “Bomber” Harris and Curtis LeMay did during WW2? No, I’m not.
     
    Well, that's mighty white of you.

    The allies were our side. I think we have an obligation to talk about atrocities committed by our side, just as the germans have an obligation to talk about those committed by their side.

    I don't see why you feel compelled to pooh-pooh any attempt to do so.

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  91. @Whiskey
    There were German U Boats up and down the US East Coast and Gulf Coast. They sank shipping right off the Jersey Shore, and in the Gulf Coast. German u boats even penetrated and attacked shipping in the St. Lawrence Gulf: See here. Because Admiral King hated the British and refused convoy escorts, shipping was an easy target for U Boats with the US East Coast non-blackout lights providing easy illumination for target ships at night. Being silhouetted meant being a sitting duck.

    It wasn't until late 1943 and 1944 that improved radar, sonar, long range Naval air reconnaissance, and convoying produced attrition on the U boat force making them no longer able to operate in the US East Coast, Gulf Coast, Caribbean, and so on.

    Because Admiral King hated the British, he refused naval escorts to American ships traveling along the east coast?

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  92. @Paul Jolliffe
    The PBY Catalina was the best long-range recon plane in the USN's arsenal in WWII. Its effectiveness at spotting U-Boats meant that we would win the Battle of the Atlantic by the end of 1943.

    Richard Overy's outstanding "Why the Allies Won" devotes an entire chapter to the role that recon planes played in the Battle of the Atlantic. I highly recommend it, although I suspect that you, Whiskey, have already read it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_PBY_Catalina#/media/File:Consolidated_PBY-5A_Catalina_in_flight_c1942.jpg

    No, the best USN recon plane was the PB4Y, known to the Army as the B-24. Faster, longer-ranged, higher ceiling, and much more heavily armed. PB4Ys were used mostly, if not entirely, in the Pacific. Over the Atlantic, B-24s were flown by the USAAF or the RAF.

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  93. @syonredux

    Yeah, dead is dead. It’s just that the corpse-piles built by the Germans and the Japanese in WW2 are significantly larger than the ones built by the Anglos….

    And which pile gets talked about more in the United States?
     
    Well, the guy with the bigger pile usually dominates the conversation.....In a conversation about the richest men in history, nobody's going to waste time talking about a guy who owns a single second-hand car dealership.....

    Maybe some self-reflection is warranted. Whenever we pat ourselves on the back for winning WWII (always, of course, forgetting the Russians),
     
    Hey, I'm always willing to acknowledge that the USSR deserves the lion's share of the credit for defeating Nazi Germany. Indeed, I like pointing out to SJWs that the war in Europe was largely a contest between Hitler and Stalin....

    that we congratulate ourselves on a victory we attained while murdering hundreds of thousands of innocents.

    So are you saying it’s okay then? War atrocities are like Golf – low score wins, even if it’s well above par?

     

    You mean, am I happy about what Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris and Curtis LeMay did during WW2? No, I'm not.

    As for the "low score wins".....Well, we are talking about WW2, the largest organized slaughter in human history.....

    Well, the guy with the bigger pile usually dominates the conversation…..In a conversation about the richest men in history, nobody’s going to waste time talking about a guy who owns a single second-hand car dealership…..

    What about the guy who rakes it in faster? We killed at a much higher rate in terms of bodies per incident. The fire-storm raid on Tokyo killed 120,000 people in a single night. Is that something to be proud of? Is that something that warrants no reflection? Had the war gone on a little longer – who knows – we might have caught up with axis.

    You mean, am I happy about what Sir Arthur “Bomber” Harris and Curtis LeMay did during WW2? No, I’m not.

    Well, that’s mighty white of you.

    The allies were our side. I think we have an obligation to talk about atrocities committed by our side, just as the germans have an obligation to talk about those committed by their side.

    I don’t see why you feel compelled to pooh-pooh any attempt to do so.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Well, the guy with the bigger pile usually dominates the conversation…..In a conversation about the richest men in history, nobody’s going to waste time talking about a guy who owns a single second-hand car dealership…..

    What about the guy who rakes it in faster? We killed at a much higher rate in terms of bodies per incident. The fire-storm raid on Tokyo killed 120,000 people in a single night. Is that something to be proud of?
     

    Well, that is one area where the Anglos can take the palm, largest number in deaths in the briefest span of time...

    Is that something that warrants no reflection? Had the war gone on a little longer – who knows – we might have caught up with axis.
     
    Dunno. The Nazi death-toll alone is around 11-12 million, whereas the total for Anglo bombing raids amounts to about 500,000 Germans and around 400,000 Japanese:

    Anglo-American Allies :
    Bombing of Germany:
    1945 US Strategic Bombing Survey: >305,000
    Hammond: 400,000
    Rummel: 410,000, 100% democidal
    Clodfelter: 499,750
    Keegan: 593,000
    Grenville: 593,000 (citing "official Germany")
    P. Johnson: 600,000
     

    Bombing of Japan:

    Total:
    1945 US Strategic Bombing Survey: 330,000
    Keegan: 363,000, not including post-war radiation sickness
    Rummel: 374,000
    P. Johnson: 435,000
    Harper Collins Atlas of the Second World War: 500,000

     


    You mean, am I happy about what Sir Arthur “Bomber” Harris and Curtis LeMay did during WW2? No, I’m not.

    Well, that’s mighty white of you.
     

    I do try to be as White as possible, which, in 21st Century America, is no easy task....

    The allies were our side. I think we have an obligation to talk about atrocities committed by our side, just as the germans have an obligation to talk about those committed by their side.

    I don’t see why you feel compelled to pooh-pooh any attempt to do so.

     

    I just like to keep things in proportion. For example, when I'm on SJW sites, I love to bring up stuff about the Anglo strategic bombing campaign over Germany and our alliance with Stalin......
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  94. @syonredux

    Atrocity pissing contests, eh?

    Well, that’s what your engaging in.
     
    And the Anglos lose to the Axis in that particular contest....

    And the Anglos lose to the Axis in that particular contest….

    The real losers were all the people who – you know – wound up dead.

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  95. @Steve Sailer
    Filipinos in California attacked Japanese-Americans in 1941-42 in vengeance for Japanese war crimes in the Philippines. I haven't heard of Chinese attacking Japanese in California, but that was probably a worry too.

    The FDR administration over-reacted in interning West Coast Japanese-Americans, but they had a lot on their plates in early 1942. They could have called off internment after the Battle of Midway on 6/4/1942 removed the threat to the West Coast posed by the Japanese Navy, but by then there was a lot of bureaucratic momentum built up. Plus, the FDR administration was quite leftist and they therefore saw the Japanese as fascist and thus bad, while modern Americans see them as nowhite and thus good.

    The internment so were just another piece of the New Deal. They were fed, weren’t they? And housed.

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    Interned Japanese Americans were paid the same as drafted privates in the Army.
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  96. @Reg Cæsar
    The internment so were just another piece of the New Deal. They were fed, weren't they? And housed.

    Interned Japanese Americans were paid the same as drafted privates in the Army.

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    What were the German and Italian ones paid?
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  97. @Mr. Anon

    Well, the guy with the bigger pile usually dominates the conversation…..In a conversation about the richest men in history, nobody’s going to waste time talking about a guy who owns a single second-hand car dealership…..
     
    What about the guy who rakes it in faster? We killed at a much higher rate in terms of bodies per incident. The fire-storm raid on Tokyo killed 120,000 people in a single night. Is that something to be proud of? Is that something that warrants no reflection? Had the war gone on a little longer - who knows - we might have caught up with axis.

    You mean, am I happy about what Sir Arthur “Bomber” Harris and Curtis LeMay did during WW2? No, I’m not.
     
    Well, that's mighty white of you.

    The allies were our side. I think we have an obligation to talk about atrocities committed by our side, just as the germans have an obligation to talk about those committed by their side.

    I don't see why you feel compelled to pooh-pooh any attempt to do so.

    Well, the guy with the bigger pile usually dominates the conversation…..In a conversation about the richest men in history, nobody’s going to waste time talking about a guy who owns a single second-hand car dealership…..

    What about the guy who rakes it in faster? We killed at a much higher rate in terms of bodies per incident. The fire-storm raid on Tokyo killed 120,000 people in a single night. Is that something to be proud of?

    Well, that is one area where the Anglos can take the palm, largest number in deaths in the briefest span of time…

    Is that something that warrants no reflection? Had the war gone on a little longer – who knows – we might have caught up with axis.

    Dunno. The Nazi death-toll alone is around 11-12 million, whereas the total for Anglo bombing raids amounts to about 500,000 Germans and around 400,000 Japanese:

    Anglo-American Allies :
    Bombing of Germany:
    1945 US Strategic Bombing Survey: >305,000
    Hammond: 400,000
    Rummel: 410,000, 100% democidal
    Clodfelter: 499,750
    Keegan: 593,000
    Grenville: 593,000 (citing “official Germany”)
    P. Johnson: 600,000

    Bombing of Japan:

    Total:
    1945 US Strategic Bombing Survey: 330,000
    Keegan: 363,000, not including post-war radiation sickness
    Rummel: 374,000
    P. Johnson: 435,000
    Harper Collins Atlas of the Second World War: 500,000

    You mean, am I happy about what Sir Arthur “Bomber” Harris and Curtis LeMay did during WW2? No, I’m not.

    Well, that’s mighty white of you.

    I do try to be as White as possible, which, in 21st Century America, is no easy task….

    The allies were our side. I think we have an obligation to talk about atrocities committed by our side, just as the germans have an obligation to talk about those committed by their side.

    I don’t see why you feel compelled to pooh-pooh any attempt to do so.

    I just like to keep things in proportion. For example, when I’m on SJW sites, I love to bring up stuff about the Anglo strategic bombing campaign over Germany and our alliance with Stalin……

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  98. @Steve Sailer
    Interned Japanese Americans were paid the same as drafted privates in the Army.

    What were the German and Italian ones paid?

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  99. @El Dato

    1984 was a satire of Soviet “trials”, but with less overt violence could be read as a take on the Roosevelt Administration as well.
     
    Very no.

    "Animal Farm" was the satire of Sovietism/Stalinism, the very pointy end Orwell got a feel of in Catalonia (through instant Hitlerization).

    "1984" was about where British Socialism would lead if it continued in its way (4 January 1884 was the creation of the Fabian Society), a very proggy outfit ("for the betterment of society")

    From
    The 60th Anniversary of Orwell’s 1984
    :


    Orwell foresaw how the coming generations of younger Fabians building on the precedent of universal healthcare would employ the emergent welfare state, then, bloated by obedient Left intellectuals intent on increasing governmental power, could become dictatorial. In 1984, instead of bringing the promised peace, truth, love, and plenty, new Fabians would construct enormous ministries devoted to war, deceit, and hatred. In secret, this future generation of Fabians would create shortages, and use fears engendered by the shortages to impose Draconian governmental controls.
     
    But I thought we were talking UFOs and Outside Context Problems?

    “1984″ was about where British Socialism would lead if it continued in its way

    It was satire nonetheless, as were just about all of Orwell’s fictional works. And much of 1984‘s content is as much or more Soviet than Fabian, e.g., the Eurasia/Eastasia bit (ever come across the surnames Seeger or Trumbo?), and the sacrifice of personal relationships to politics, as with Julia. Not that the Fabians were above that, either. But they didn’t bring it to blood.

    Speaking of personal relationships, Leon Trotsky was murdered right after he and Frida cuckolded equally communist Diego. (Hey, Salma, didn’t Harvey’s interest in producing her laudatory biopic clue you in that something was wrong with the man?)

    That crime invites the personal-or-political question, just as Emmett Till does the persona-or-racial one. (The scandal in the latter wasn’t the murder itself, but the trial.)

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