The Unz Review: An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
DNA Barbarians at the Gates
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

From The Atlantic, an interview with David Reich of Harvard who sequences the genomes of old dead bodies:

Ancient DNA Is Rewriting Human (and Neanderthal) History

The genomes of the long dead are turning up all sorts of unexpected and controversial findings.

SARAH ZHANG

… Zhang: You’ve said that ancient DNA has changed the way we see archaeology from these time periods. How so?

Reich: Archaeology has always been political, especially in Europe. Archaeologists are very aware of the misuse of archaeology in the past, in the 20th century. There’s a very famous German archaeologist named Gustaf Kossinna, who was the first or one of the first to come up with the idea of “material culture.” Say, you see similar pots, and therefore you’re in a region where there was shared community and aspects of culture.

He went so far as to argue that when you see the spread of these pots, you’re actually seeing a spread of people and there’s a one-to-one mapping for those things.

His ideas were used by the Nazis later, in propaganda, to argue that a particular group in Europe, the Aryans, expanded in all directions across Europe. …

So after the Second World War, there was a very strong reaction in the European archaeological community—not just the Germans, but the broad continental European archaeological community—to the fact that their discipline had been used for these terrible political ends. And there was a retreat from the ideas of Kossinna.

Zhang: You actually had German collaborators drop out of a study because of these exact concerns, right? One of them wrote, “We must(!) avoid … being compared with the so-called ‘siedlungsarchäologie Method’ from Gustaf Kossinna!”

This is the Pots Not People orthodoxy: if you see in the archaeological record that a particular style of pottery spread, then the pots must have spread (via trade or copying), not the people who made the pots. (For example, if the corded ware pots of Aryan steppe warriors start showing up in the forested parts of Europe, this must have been due to, uh, good will gifts as part of a proto-UNESCO-sponsored cultural exchange program and not due to the Aryan steppe warriors coming in off the steppe and raping and pillaging. That idea would be … barbaric!

No doubt this general Pots Not People idea is true in some cases … and not true in other cases.

Reich: Yeah, that’s right. I think one of the things the ancient DNA is showing is actually the Corded Ware culture does correspond coherently to a group of people. [Editor’s note: The Corded Ware made pottery with cord-like ornamentation and according to ancient DNA studies, they descended from steppe ancestry.] I think that was a very sensitive issue to some of our coauthors, and one of the coauthors resigned because he felt we were returning to that idea of migration in archaeology that pots are the same as people. There have been a fair number of other coauthors from different parts of continental Europe who shared this anxiety.

We responded to this by adding a lot of content to our papers to discuss these issues and contextualize them. Our results are actually almost diametrically opposite from what Kossina thought because these Corded Ware people come from the East, a place that Kossina would have despised as a source for them. But nevertheless it is true that there’s big population movements, and so I think what the DNA is doing is it’s forcing the hand of this discussion in archaeology, showing that in fact, major movements of people do occur. They are sometimes sharp and dramatic, and they involve large-scale population replacements over a relatively short period of time. We now can see that for the first time.

What the genetics is finding is often outside the range of what the archaeologists are discussing these days.

Zhang: I think at one point in your book you actually describe ancient DNA researchers as the “barbarians” at the gates of the study of history.

Reich: Yeah.

Zhang: Does it feel that way? Have you gotten into arguments with archaeologists over your findings?

Reich: I think archaeologists and linguists find it frustrating that we’re not trained in the language of archaeology and all these sensitivities like about Kossinna. Yet we have this really powerful tool which is this way of looking at things nobody has been able to look at before.

The point I was trying to make there was that even if we’re not always able to articulate the context of our findings very well, this is very new information, and a serious scholar really needs to take this on board. It’s dangerous. Barbarians may not talk in an educated and learned way but they have access to weapons and ways of looking at things that other people haven’t looked to. And time and again we’ve learned in the past that ignoring barbarians is a dangerous thing to do.

But, but DNA proves race doesn’t exist! Would the new National Geographic lie to us?

 
Hide 144 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. OT In the name of progressive inclusion, Hollywood stars adopt contracts stipulating that nobody compete with them
    https://variety.com/2018/film/news/matt-damon-ben-affleck-inclusion-rider-1202724988/
    The “inclusion rider” ties the star’s participation to cast and crew diversity.
    You know, at the dawn of the film industry, Sergei Eisenstein wrote an essay proposing that every single person working on a film have a sort of veto, in the early-Bolshevik spirit of equality. After he had made a few features, he didn’t retain this idea.

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    The “inclusion rider” ties the star’s participation to cast and crew diversity.
     
    Future projects may be able to cut out expensive prima donnas.

    What’s the state of realistic human character CGI? Uncanny valley is still in effect for recent attempts at recreating known actors (i.e. Peter Cushing and Carrie Fisher in Rogue One), but well designed and ‘directed’ future original digital characters might be able to pass a Voigt-Kampff test and provoke necessary emotional responses in a human audience.

    The amount of work to recreate everyday realistic settings is still tremendous, and might not yet look like the real thing, but technical/artistic advancements could allow a director to mostly skip the whole ‘real life’ on-camera meatspace apparatus. A realistic-CGI movie revolution would leave Hollywood with far fewer live actors, location and studio crews, and related infrastructure and support jobs.

    Auteurs and producers with a budget could hire no-name voice talent and digital animators (foreign-based, if necessary) not bound by media cartels, unions, or powerful individuals trying to dictate industry-wide political content and cast and crew makeup. The remaining problem for the all-digital disruptors would be distribution—maybe a Peter Thiel type could start up a media platform to rival Netflix and Amazon that prides itself on being about free expression (and quality) above all else.
  2. showing that in fact, major movements of people do occur. They are sometimes sharp and dramatic, and they involve large-scale population replacements over a relatively short period of time. We now can see that for the first time.

    We can now see it for the first time? If you open your eyes you can see it in real time. It is happening beneath your noses.

    • Replies: @JerseyJeffersonian
    And if you are disinclined by PC to view the events that you, J. Ross, are referring to as an instance of that large-scale population/demographic shift, well then, there are plenty of examples available to you within the last thousand years in Western Europe. For instance, there is the massive influx of Saxons, Angles, and Jutes into what is now England that forced the Romano-Celtics to the fringes into Cornwall and Wales. And then the influx of Vikings into Northern England a few centuries later. In that instance, though, there may have been more mixing after the initial upending of the social order, as the Danes and such were Germanic peoples, as were the Anglo-Saxons. This can be seen in the material artifacts to some degree, and more profoundly by the absorption of Danish words and cultural norms into the area of the Danelaw.

    I guess some of the colleagues who absented themselves were, if not true believers, then at least people afraid of being tarred as crypto-Nazis by the entrenched true believers in the field; ostracism and loss of career can be strong motivators to avert one's eyes from inconvenient new paradigms.
    , @JerseyJeffersonian
    Oops, sorry, iSteve fan. Picked up wrong name to respond to.
  3. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Wait a minute….

    Archaeologists don’t want to believe in massive migrations of peoples because that would be Nazi, i.e. the idea that ancients invaded other lands and took over.

    They would rather believe that different peoples stayed put in their own lands, and it was only the ideas that spread from one culture to another.

    Okay…

    But now, if nationalists say that (1) people should mostly stay in their own nations, (2) NOT invade-migrate into other nations and (3) learn from each other through communication of ideas… they, the nationalists, are called ‘Nazi’ whereas all the millions of invader-migrants from Asia, Africa, and Muslim world are seen as ‘progressive’.

    Nationalists are happy with pots-not-people formula in today’s world. If you want our pots, stay in your own nation and learn to make pots like we do. Do NOT barge into our nations for those pots.
    But nationalists are deemed as Nazis.

    Hmm… maybe the globalist logic goes like this.

    If you have special pots, your people may not take over other nations to share those pots.
    But if you have no pots, your people may take over nations with the pots.

    • LOL: BB753
    • Replies: @Anon

    Wait a minute….
    Archaeologists don’t want to believe in massive migrations of peoples
     
    You're overthinking it. The author of the article is a jewish chap from Haarvard.
    , @Seamus Padraig
    But, but ... using other people's pots is ... cultural appropriation!
    , @JollyOldSoul
    "They would rather believe that different peoples stayed put in their own lands, and it was only the ideas that spread from one culture to another."

    Well it was totally easy in 3000 B.C. (woops, i mean 3000 BCE - must be careful to avoid another thought crime!) for people to exchange ideas while staying put. Back then they had Prehistoric Internet, which allowed then to transmit complex ideas while staying put. Nowadays, of course, our communications infrastructure is sorely lacking as compared to then - you know, besides books, trade, telephone, television, cell phone, text messaging, cheap and safe vacation travel, Facebutt, Snapchat, YouTube, Instagram, email, snail mail, internet, and all that - so we have to move actual physical people (permanently) - hundreds of millions of them - in order to get the benefit of exchange of ideas. There is no other way to go about it.

    And if the entire native populations of Sweden, Italy, France, Britain, Germany, Switzerland, Greece, Denmark, Poland, Hungary, Holland, Spain, and Estonia disappear due to the invasion, well that's a small price to pay for the introduction of a few new Third World recipes and a new form of rap music. Can't have anyone holding up progress on behalf of their own survival, dontcha know?
  4. (For example, if the corded ware pots of Aryan steppe warriors start showing up in the forested parts of Europe, this must have been due to, uh, good will gifts as part of a proto-UNESCO-sponsored cultural exchange program and not due to the Aryan steppe warriors coming in off the steppe and raping and pillaging. That idea would be … barbaric!

    No doubt this general Pots Not People idea is true in some cases … and not true in other cases.

    Bell-Beakers in Britain being a true case…

    It looks as if people in western Germany picked up these ideas – of course we have a radically imperfect idea of what those ideas were – and then settled Britain. Before all this Britain was populated by a kindof-Sardinian population (with some hunter-gatherer mixed in) that had probably came from Spain. Afterwards they were almost indistinguishable from people of that era living in the Netherlands, who had a lot of steppe ancestry. 93% replacement, minimum. Some Anglo-Saxon ancestry was added about 1400 years ago but A. they’re not very different from the Brits B. most British ancestry today still goes back to the Bell Beaker conquest..

    This probably happened through war and massacre. If you think otherwise, you reject the historical record – have a fundamentally false notion of human nature. Disease is not too plausible as a causal factor, since the proto-Brits were not a long-isolated population like the Amerindians or Polynesians, while for that matter some of the most potent crowd diseases, smallpox for example, weren’t even around yet.

    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2017/05/17/bell-beakers-or-the-birth-of-britain/

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    How much do we - or can we - know about mass disease outbreaks among prehistoric ancient peoples?
    , @dearieme
    "This probably happened through war and massacre." I think that's pretty likely. On the other hand there may not have been many neolithic people available to massacre . The late neolithic in the British Isles is marked by evidence of a large decline in arable farming, an increase in pastoralism, and a great reduction in archaeological evidence of what the devil was going on.
  5. because these Corded Ware people come from the East, a place that Kossina would have despised as a source for them

    Because archaelogical classes now include both telepathy and time travel. I am not an expert on racial pseudoscience tropes but everything in that vein that I have read has whites/”Aryans” coming from the East. I am so tired of this childish and easily disproven cult signal thing, this not-logic, where Hitler was a racist, and therefore he must have hated tea, or Lord Tennyson was technically Irish so he must have hated the English, or Washington owned slaves, so he must have been a sadist who would never manumit anyone, or commission a statue to remember a slave’s heroism. In a world where words have meaning this sort of easily falsified emotional guesswork would be called bigotry, not in the sense that it’s especially odious, but in the sense of a wrong preconception overtaking facts, and without challenge. What is this guy’s explanation for Savitri Devi?

  6. But, but DNA proves race doesn’t exist! Would the new National Geographic lie to us?

    Depends. Is the editor Grosvenor or Goldberg? If Grosvenor I would expect naked truth and savages.

  7. (For example, if the corded ware pots of Aryan steppe warriors start showing up in the forested parts of Europe, this must have been due to, uh, good will gifts as part of a proto-UNESCO-sponsored cultural exchange program and not due to the Aryan steppe warriors coming in off the steppe and raping and pillaging. That idea would be … barbaric!

    Robert E Howard got a lot right…..

    • Replies: @backup
    Not to spoil the fun of spooking leftists, but we mostly find Corded Ware people [i]being[/i] slaughtered. See the Eulau case for a good example.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=wKn05BbEMcs
    , @Pericles
    The odd thing was, they apparently got pillaged by an SJW hippie snake cult?
  8. @Anon
    Wait a minute....

    Archaeologists don't want to believe in massive migrations of peoples because that would be Nazi, i.e. the idea that ancients invaded other lands and took over.

    They would rather believe that different peoples stayed put in their own lands, and it was only the ideas that spread from one culture to another.

    Okay...

    But now, if nationalists say that (1) people should mostly stay in their own nations, (2) NOT invade-migrate into other nations and (3) learn from each other through communication of ideas... they, the nationalists, are called 'Nazi' whereas all the millions of invader-migrants from Asia, Africa, and Muslim world are seen as 'progressive'.

    Nationalists are happy with pots-not-people formula in today's world. If you want our pots, stay in your own nation and learn to make pots like we do. Do NOT barge into our nations for those pots.
    But nationalists are deemed as Nazis.

    Hmm... maybe the globalist logic goes like this.

    If you have special pots, your people may not take over other nations to share those pots.
    But if you have no pots, your people may take over nations with the pots.

    Wait a minute….
    Archaeologists don’t want to believe in massive migrations of peoples

    You’re overthinking it. The author of the article is a jewish chap from Haarvard.

    • Replies: @BB753
    When Jews emigrate, they leave their old pots behind and adopt local pots. Hence their attachment to pottery.
    "Pots not people" was also Harvey Weinstein' s modus operandi when relieving his carnal urges.
  9. This makes clear how provocative Volker Heydt’s article on DNA was: “Kossinna’s Smile”

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/kossinnas-smile/8ABA3BD9132B7605E8871236065CD4E3

  10. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    This article and Reich’s comments are absolutely shot through with political concerns.

    In such an environment, how far can we trust Reich to make accurate findings, come to accurate conclusions, and publish accurate reports?

    It’s actually really concerning he has been entrusted with this extremely scarce DNA raw material and archaeological remains that are part of our heritage.

    • Agree: AndrewR
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Who/whom, goy.
    , @Almost Missouri
    Nineteen-aughties archeology by a Pole that might somehow have been retroactively influenced by a 1930s German regime = "politicized".

    Nineteen fortysix through the Current Year archaeology that is primarily, explicitly and rigidly reacting against the nineteen-aughties archeology = "not politicized".

    QED

    /sarc

    This is also known as "Why we can't have true things."
    , @densa
    The interview concludes with

    It's revealing that the differences among populations we see today are actually only a few thousand years old at most and that everybody is mixed. I think that if you pay any attention to this world, and have any degree of seriousness, then you can’t come out feeling affirmed in the racist view of the world. You have to be more open to immigration. You have to be more open to the mixing of different peoples. That’s your own history.
     
    This scientist is a SJW.

    One of the irritations about how the SJW Industry speaks for people such as myself is that I am perfectly willing to accept that America is multiracial. What I don't accept is destroying our culture for its supremacy. This isn't hate or ignorance. It's an attachment to our last couple hundred years that I'm not willing to exchange for the supposed benevolence of the last couple thousand.

    A country with white settlement and culture that accepts minorities, or a dispossessed white culture overlorded by obnoxious SJWs? He says, "I think that if you pay any attention to this world, and have any degree of seriousness, then you can't come out feeling affirmed in the racist view of the world." I'd say that if you pay attention and are serious, you value the good our culture has provided and seek to preserve it for your offspring.
    , @Lot
    Lol, absurd paranoia. He makes fun of German PC.
  11. Actually, Kossina was ethically a Pole, so I doubt he would have disparaged the ultimate ‘eastward origin’ of the Corded Ware folk.

    • Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski

    Actually, Kossina was ethically a Pole, so I doubt he would have disparaged the ultimate ‘eastward origin’ of the Corded Ware folk.

     

    He felt he was German when all Germans were of the old school and he acted accordingly. So yes, he might like "eastward origin".

    "It is a land where pots of our ancestors are buried, so it should belong to us now."

    , @anon

    Ethically a Pole
     
    … sounds like the title of a lost Blonde on Blonde track.
  12. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Yep.

    The salient fact revealed in recent times, through studying the actual DNA profiles of ancient samples, is that the conclusions of the old time philologists and anthropologists – alas, so utterly abused and misused by the Nazis – were essentially correct, in that that an ‘Indo European race’ of warrior pastoralists, originating in the Pontic Steppe of the Ukraine, did, in fact spread their language and genes far and wide – from Spain, sweeping over India and to the confines of China.

    Strangely enough, it has been posited, through DNA methods that the ethnogenesis of the original Turks and Mongols had a Steppic component.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    If the Nazis were correct about this, would any scientist be permitted to say so?
    , @stillCARealist
    "the original Turks and Mongols had a Steppic component"

    the Turks and Mongols came from the Steppes. How could they they not be Steppic? Great word there, incidentally.
    , @Grace Jones
    The first farmers mainly reached Iberia following a coastal route through the northern Mediterranean Sea. The new study demonstrates that Neolithic Iberians show genetic differences to the migrant farmers that settled in Central and Northern Europe. "This suggests that all early farmers in Iberia trace most of their ancestry to the first Neolithic people that migrated into the peninsula and that later contributions from their central European counterparts were only minor," says archaeogeneticist Cristina Valdiosera from La Trobe University in Australia, one of the lead authors of the study.

    Read more at https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2018/03/genetic-prehistory-of-iberia-differs.html
  13. Indian historians are similarly trying to claim that there was no ‘Aryan invasion’, instead there was just a peaceful movement into India of a large number of men who bred with local women.

    • Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski

    Indian historians are similarly trying to claim that there was no ‘Aryan invasion’, instead there was just a peaceful movement into India of a large number of men who bred with local women.

     

    So local women preferred tall, blonde Aryan strangers than their swarthy men? That's racist! The conquest at least give the local men the dignity of being slaughtered.
    , @oddsbodkins
    It's not impossible. Perhaps the locals practiced a bizarre religion of self-loathing and distracting hedonism that passivated and neutered their men.
  14. @Anonymous
    Yep.

    The salient fact revealed in recent times, through studying the actual DNA profiles of ancient samples, is that the conclusions of the old time philologists and anthropologists - alas, so utterly abused and misused by the Nazis - were essentially correct, in that that an 'Indo European race' of warrior pastoralists, originating in the Pontic Steppe of the Ukraine, did, in fact spread their language and genes far and wide - from Spain, sweeping over India and to the confines of China.

    Strangely enough, it has been posited, through DNA methods that the ethnogenesis of the original Turks and Mongols had a Steppic component.

    If the Nazis were correct about this, would any scientist be permitted to say so?

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Only after a long disclaimer saying how evil teh nazis were and how painful it is to corroborate ebil nazi beliefs.
  15. @syonredux

    (For example, if the corded ware pots of Aryan steppe warriors start showing up in the forested parts of Europe, this must have been due to, uh, good will gifts as part of a proto-UNESCO-sponsored cultural exchange program and not due to the Aryan steppe warriors coming in off the steppe and raping and pillaging. That idea would be … barbaric!

     

    Robert E Howard got a lot right.....


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEp76ppPc8o

    Not to spoil the fun of spooking leftists, but we mostly find Corded Ware people [i]being[/i] slaughtered. See the Eulau case for a good example.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=wKn05BbEMcs

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri

    "we mostly find Corded Ware people being slaughtered."
     
    Well, we find the males being slaughtered. The females were taken ("inmarried", as the professor rather delicately puts it) by the steppe nomads.

    Some aspects he did not address:

    · It appears that these Aryan steppe nomads, in spite of probably abducting their wives after massacring their men, were monogamous (e.g., burials of nuclear families). If so, this must be extremely unusual. Nearly all cultures in history that can afford it are polygynous (multi-wived), and if you're essentially just grabbing your wives at will from a militarily inferior culture, there isn't really anything stopping you from getting as many wives as you want. When the the Romans encountered the early Germans (a couple of thousand years after the archeological period in the video), they remarked upon the peculiarity that the Germans were monogamous, so apparently this characteristic is deep-seated.

    · If the the men were all steppic and the women were all abducted farm girls, then the modern descendants of these people must have radically different male and female (Y- and mtDNA) chromosomes. They are, in effect, the male/female fusion of two different races.
  16. I am still very confused how DNA shows race doesn’t exist, when 23andme shows you right front and center how much neandertal you have in you.

    Which drops down to about zero for some regions of the world, and the people living there.

    It tells exactly what percent of Ashkenazi, what percent American Indian, etc, etc, etc.

    Do the Wojcickis ever discuss stuff like this at family gatherings?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Do the Wojcickis ever discuss stuff like this at family gatherings?

     

    At first I thought you were referring to the Wachowskis, but that's a different denial.

    http://assets.rebelcircus.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/matrix2.jpg
  17. No doubt this general Pots Not People idea is true in some cases … and not true in other cases.

    One of the results of the study of genetics re the history of England has been that they found that the genetics of the English population has been much more stable than you might expect based on cultural and linguistic imports from e.g. the Normans and the Vikings. This implies that there is indeed an indigenous English people with an ancient connection to their land, contrary to contemporary British elites:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/dec/20/indigenous-britons-far-right

  18. Sarah Zhang used to be the prolific, and somewhat political, science writer at Wired. Apparently she studied neurobiology at Harvard.

    It would be interesting to hear her take on, say, any differences in neurobiology between, say, Chinese people and African people.

  19. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    At least in Roman times there were localities that were known for certain products that they exported, maybe like wine, garam, silver dinnerware, and so on. You found the wine amphora all over the known world just as you find cardboard Amazon.com boxes all over now. In a case like that there was no migration.

  20. @Anon
    Wait a minute....

    Archaeologists don't want to believe in massive migrations of peoples because that would be Nazi, i.e. the idea that ancients invaded other lands and took over.

    They would rather believe that different peoples stayed put in their own lands, and it was only the ideas that spread from one culture to another.

    Okay...

    But now, if nationalists say that (1) people should mostly stay in their own nations, (2) NOT invade-migrate into other nations and (3) learn from each other through communication of ideas... they, the nationalists, are called 'Nazi' whereas all the millions of invader-migrants from Asia, Africa, and Muslim world are seen as 'progressive'.

    Nationalists are happy with pots-not-people formula in today's world. If you want our pots, stay in your own nation and learn to make pots like we do. Do NOT barge into our nations for those pots.
    But nationalists are deemed as Nazis.

    Hmm... maybe the globalist logic goes like this.

    If you have special pots, your people may not take over other nations to share those pots.
    But if you have no pots, your people may take over nations with the pots.

    But, but … using other people’s pots is … cultural appropriation!

  21. The Nazis did the same to much of Western European thought as Hitler did to the name ‘Adolf’ and the toothbrush moustache. Our problem though is that thought is not like a name or style, there are no alternative truths. We must not stop drinking water simply because the biggest losers of the 20th Century drank water.

  22. We Germans must tiptoe with care
    When unearthing old pottery ware;
    Because what would (((they))) say
    If inscribed in the clay,
    We discern ancient swastikas there?

  23. Zhang: … at one point in your book you actually describe ancient DNA researchers as the “barbarians” at the gates of the study of history. …

    Reich: … even if we’re not always able to articulate the context of our findings very well, this is very new information, and a serious scholar really needs to take this on board. It’s dangerous.

    Barbarians may not talk in an educated and learned way but they have access to weapons and ways of looking at things that other people haven’t looked to.

    And time and again we’ve learned in the past that ignoring barbarians is a dangerous thing to do.

    It’s kind of hilarious and mindblowing that he is equating modern-day DNA researchers with the prehistoric barbarians they are studying.

  24. Spencer Wells and Razib Khan having been doing a good podcast on DNA and genomics that has hit on this. In one of the episodes they were talking to Chris Stringer, a top anthropologist, about how the new science was impacting the old. From their talks about the people involved in this research, it looks like the people involved are looking for the truth, whatever it may be. Maybe this stuff is too complicated for the sjws to see what is coming.

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-insight/id1324744423

  25. “large-scale population replacements over a relatively short period of time”

    Aren’t there several other words, like “massacre”, “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” which describe this process?

    Here’s a historical example.

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2018/03/22/caesar-bloody-caesar/

    The mortality rate is staggering, as ten legions of highly trained and battle-hardened Roman soldiers methodically work their way through the states of Gaul, targeting entire peoples for destruction. After defeating the Belgian Nervii, Caesar reports that both the people and their name “were reduced almost to annihilation”: survivors tell him that of 60,000 men of fighting age, only five hundred remain. Nor was this absent-minded genocide: when Caesar prepares a campaign against the Eburones in northeastern Gaul, he boasts of his intention “to destroy their stirps ac nomen [stock and name].”

    Death was not the only way to destroy a people. When the Atuatuci launched a surprise attack on Caesar’s besieging army after negotiating a surrender, 53,000 of them were sold as slaves in a single lot, and the recently identified site of their city, the Iron Age fortification of Thuin, tells its own tale: a few hoards of gold that must have been hidden in the panic and then missed by Caesar’s solders; piles of sling bullets; and then nothing at all for two hundred years.

    • Replies: @songbird
    You've hit on one of the main reasons "pots, not people" was just such an incredibly dumb theory: all the classical references to killing off whole tribes and cities. Are we to believe people were more civilized before writing?

    It is really just a shocking display of the reality distortion that politics has on whole fields of study, especially when you consider people were stumbling over trenches filled with arrowheads, etc.
    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    In spite of all of that, the Gauls remained rather intact compared to some other peoples the Romans conquered. Of the five modern Romance languages, French retains by far the most Celtic influence, which tells me the Gauls were never quite as assimilated as the Iberians and Lusitanians. And far west Brittany actually kept their native Celtic language mostly intact during the Roman era, being likely only nominally under the control of Rome. So the French comic book “Asterix” does have a thread of reality to back it up.
  26. @J.Ross
    OT In the name of progressive inclusion, Hollywood stars adopt contracts stipulating that nobody compete with them
    https://variety.com/2018/film/news/matt-damon-ben-affleck-inclusion-rider-1202724988/
    The "inclusion rider" ties the star's participation to cast and crew diversity.
    You know, at the dawn of the film industry, Sergei Eisenstein wrote an essay proposing that every single person working on a film have a sort of veto, in the early-Bolshevik spirit of equality. After he had made a few features, he didn't retain this idea.

    The “inclusion rider” ties the star’s participation to cast and crew diversity.

    Future projects may be able to cut out expensive prima donnas.

    What’s the state of realistic human character CGI? Uncanny valley is still in effect for recent attempts at recreating known actors (i.e. Peter Cushing and Carrie Fisher in Rogue One), but well designed and ‘directed’ future original digital characters might be able to pass a Voigt-Kampff test and provoke necessary emotional responses in a human audience.

    The amount of work to recreate everyday realistic settings is still tremendous, and might not yet look like the real thing, but technical/artistic advancements could allow a director to mostly skip the whole ‘real life’ on-camera meatspace apparatus. A realistic-CGI movie revolution would leave Hollywood with far fewer live actors, location and studio crews, and related infrastructure and support jobs.

    Auteurs and producers with a budget could hire no-name voice talent and digital animators (foreign-based, if necessary) not bound by media cartels, unions, or powerful individuals trying to dictate industry-wide political content and cast and crew makeup. The remaining problem for the all-digital disruptors would be distribution—maybe a Peter Thiel type could start up a media platform to rival Netflix and Amazon that prides itself on being about free expression (and quality) above all else.

    • Replies: @eD
    True, but all this time they could have produced animated movies exclusively and been cutting costs. Hollywood could have started producing only cartoons from at least the 1920s. Would audiences have accepted that? Would TV have only shown cartoons? CGI after all is just hyper-realistic 3D animation, and movies shot using digital film technology already look sort of like cartoons. With actual cartoons you still wind up with actors doing the voices but still they much cost less to produce.
  27. (For example, if the corded ware pots of Aryan steppe warriors start showing up in the forested parts of Europe, this must have been due to, uh, good will gifts as part of a proto-UNESCO-sponsored cultural exchange program and not due to the Aryan steppe warriors coming in off the steppe and raping and pillaging. That idea would be … barbaric!)

    How many leftists would find it barbaric to accuse Aryans of any violent acts towards non-Aryans? Herr Hitler kinda muddied the name of the Aryans, at least among leftists.

  28. @syonredux

    (For example, if the corded ware pots of Aryan steppe warriors start showing up in the forested parts of Europe, this must have been due to, uh, good will gifts as part of a proto-UNESCO-sponsored cultural exchange program and not due to the Aryan steppe warriors coming in off the steppe and raping and pillaging. That idea would be … barbaric!

     

    Robert E Howard got a lot right.....


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEp76ppPc8o

    The odd thing was, they apparently got pillaged by an SJW hippie snake cult?

  29. @syonredux

    (For example, if the corded ware pots of Aryan steppe warriors start showing up in the forested parts of Europe, this must have been due to, uh, good will gifts as part of a proto-UNESCO-sponsored cultural exchange program and not due to the Aryan steppe warriors coming in off the steppe and raping and pillaging. That idea would be … barbaric!

    No doubt this general Pots Not People idea is true in some cases … and not true in other cases.
     
    Bell-Beakers in Britain being a true case...

    It looks as if people in western Germany picked up these ideas – of course we have a radically imperfect idea of what those ideas were – and then settled Britain. Before all this Britain was populated by a kindof-Sardinian population (with some hunter-gatherer mixed in) that had probably came from Spain. Afterwards they were almost indistinguishable from people of that era living in the Netherlands, who had a lot of steppe ancestry. 93% replacement, minimum. Some Anglo-Saxon ancestry was added about 1400 years ago but A. they’re not very different from the Brits B. most British ancestry today still goes back to the Bell Beaker conquest..
     

    This probably happened through war and massacre. If you think otherwise, you reject the historical record – have a fundamentally false notion of human nature. Disease is not too plausible as a causal factor, since the proto-Brits were not a long-isolated population like the Amerindians or Polynesians, while for that matter some of the most potent crowd diseases, smallpox for example, weren’t even around yet.
     
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2017/05/17/bell-beakers-or-the-birth-of-britain/

    How much do we – or can we – know about mass disease outbreaks among prehistoric ancient peoples?

    • Replies: @syonredux

    How much do we – or can we – know about mass disease outbreaks among prehistoric ancient peoples?
     
    Dunno. As noted above, Greg Cochran doesn't think that disease was much of a factor:

    This probably happened through war and massacre. If you think otherwise, you reject the historical record – have a fundamentally false notion of human nature. Disease is not too plausible as a causal factor, since the proto-Brits were not a long-isolated population like the Amerindians or Polynesians, while for that matter some of the most potent crowd diseases, smallpox for example, weren’t even around yet.
     
    Here's what WIKIPEDIA has to say on the topic of smallpox:

    The timing of the arrival of smallpox in Europe and south-western Asia is less clear. Smallpox is not clearly described in either the Old or New Testaments of the Bible or in the literature of the Greeks or Romans. While some have identified the Plague of Athens—which was said to have originated in "Ethiopia" and Egypt—or the plague that lifted Carthage's 396 BC siege of Syracuse—with smallpox,[3] many scholars agree it is very unlikely such a serious disease as variola major would have escaped being described by Hippocrates if it had existed in the Mediterranean region during his lifetime.[58] While the Antonine Plague that swept through the Roman Empire in AD 165–180 may have been caused by smallpox,[59] Saint Nicasius of Rheims became the patron saint of smallpox victims for having supposedly survived a bout in 450,[3] and Saint Gregory of Tours recorded a similar outbreak in France and Italy in 580, the first use of the term variola;[3] other historians speculate that Arab armies first carried smallpox from Africa into Southwestern Europe during the 7th and 8th centuries.[25] In the 9th century the Persian physician, Rhazes, provided one of the most definitive descriptions of smallpox and was the first to differentiate smallpox from measles and chickenpox in his Kitab fi al-jadari wa-al-hasbah (The Book of Smallpox and Measles).[60]

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox#History

    The date of the appearance of smallpox is not settled. It most likely evolved from a terrestrial African rodent virus between 68,000 and 16,000 years ago.[27] The wide range of dates is due to the different records used to calibrate the molecular clock. One clade was the variola major strains (the more clinically severe form of smallpox) which spread from Asia between 400 and 1,600 years ago. A second clade included both alastrim minor (a phenotypically mild smallpox) described from the American continents and isolates from West Africa which diverged from an ancestral strain between 1,400 and 6,300 years before present. This clade further diverged into two subclades at least 800 years ago.[28] A second estimate has placed the separation of variola from Taterapox at 3000–4000 years ago.[29] This is consistent with archaeological and historical evidence regarding the appearance of smallpox as a human disease which suggests a relatively recent origin. If the mutation rate is assumed to be similar to that of the herpesviruses, the divergence date between variola from Taterapox has been estimated to be 50,000 years ago.[29] While this is consistent with the other published estimates, it suggests that the archaeological and historical evidence is very incomplete. Better estimates of mutation rates in these viruses are needed.

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox#Evolution
  30. @Anonymous
    This article and Reich's comments are absolutely shot through with political concerns.

    In such an environment, how far can we trust Reich to make accurate findings, come to accurate conclusions, and publish accurate reports?

    It's actually really concerning he has been entrusted with this extremely scarce DNA raw material and archaeological remains that are part of our heritage.

    Who/whom, goy.

  31. @Anonymous
    If the Nazis were correct about this, would any scientist be permitted to say so?

    Only after a long disclaimer saying how evil teh nazis were and how painful it is to corroborate ebil nazi beliefs.

  32. Pots not people.
    Pol Pot.
    Not a pot to piss in.

  33. @syonredux

    (For example, if the corded ware pots of Aryan steppe warriors start showing up in the forested parts of Europe, this must have been due to, uh, good will gifts as part of a proto-UNESCO-sponsored cultural exchange program and not due to the Aryan steppe warriors coming in off the steppe and raping and pillaging. That idea would be … barbaric!

    No doubt this general Pots Not People idea is true in some cases … and not true in other cases.
     
    Bell-Beakers in Britain being a true case...

    It looks as if people in western Germany picked up these ideas – of course we have a radically imperfect idea of what those ideas were – and then settled Britain. Before all this Britain was populated by a kindof-Sardinian population (with some hunter-gatherer mixed in) that had probably came from Spain. Afterwards they were almost indistinguishable from people of that era living in the Netherlands, who had a lot of steppe ancestry. 93% replacement, minimum. Some Anglo-Saxon ancestry was added about 1400 years ago but A. they’re not very different from the Brits B. most British ancestry today still goes back to the Bell Beaker conquest..
     

    This probably happened through war and massacre. If you think otherwise, you reject the historical record – have a fundamentally false notion of human nature. Disease is not too plausible as a causal factor, since the proto-Brits were not a long-isolated population like the Amerindians or Polynesians, while for that matter some of the most potent crowd diseases, smallpox for example, weren’t even around yet.
     
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2017/05/17/bell-beakers-or-the-birth-of-britain/

    “This probably happened through war and massacre.” I think that’s pretty likely. On the other hand there may not have been many neolithic people available to massacre . The late neolithic in the British Isles is marked by evidence of a large decline in arable farming, an increase in pastoralism, and a great reduction in archaeological evidence of what the devil was going on.

  34. I find this ancient DNA stuff to be one of the most fascinating scientific advances in decades. If the Nobel committee had any imagination they’d give the prize in medicine/physiology to the chap who seems to have started the ball rolling, Svante Pääbo. If he’s got a couple of important intellectual predecessors they could make up a trio to share the prize.

    Of course, to wonder whether a committee might show imagination is probably a bit optimistic.

  35. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    The “inclusion rider” ties the star’s participation to cast and crew diversity.
     
    Future projects may be able to cut out expensive prima donnas.

    What’s the state of realistic human character CGI? Uncanny valley is still in effect for recent attempts at recreating known actors (i.e. Peter Cushing and Carrie Fisher in Rogue One), but well designed and ‘directed’ future original digital characters might be able to pass a Voigt-Kampff test and provoke necessary emotional responses in a human audience.

    The amount of work to recreate everyday realistic settings is still tremendous, and might not yet look like the real thing, but technical/artistic advancements could allow a director to mostly skip the whole ‘real life’ on-camera meatspace apparatus. A realistic-CGI movie revolution would leave Hollywood with far fewer live actors, location and studio crews, and related infrastructure and support jobs.

    Auteurs and producers with a budget could hire no-name voice talent and digital animators (foreign-based, if necessary) not bound by media cartels, unions, or powerful individuals trying to dictate industry-wide political content and cast and crew makeup. The remaining problem for the all-digital disruptors would be distribution—maybe a Peter Thiel type could start up a media platform to rival Netflix and Amazon that prides itself on being about free expression (and quality) above all else.

    True, but all this time they could have produced animated movies exclusively and been cutting costs. Hollywood could have started producing only cartoons from at least the 1920s. Would audiences have accepted that? Would TV have only shown cartoons? CGI after all is just hyper-realistic 3D animation, and movies shot using digital film technology already look sort of like cartoons. With actual cartoons you still wind up with actors doing the voices but still they much cost less to produce.

  36. “But nevertheless it is true that there’s big population movements, and so I think what the DNA is doing is it’s forcing the hand of this discussion in archaeology, showing that in fact, major movements of people do occur. They are sometimes sharp and dramatic, and they involve large-scale population replacements over a relatively short period of time.”

    FFS, I really can’t keep track of what’s good and what’s evil. Major movements of people flooding into a region and displacing the natives (as happened in 2000 B.C. – woops, I mean 2000 BCE) is evil, even Nazi-esque – unless you’re a Third Worlder flooding into Europe or America – then it’s the people who *oppose* your invasion who are the Nazis.

    And we can’t use DNA to tell people apart, because that would be “racist,” until it isn’t racist. And it doesn’t matter anyway if people get displaced (like we are getting displaced in the West), because humanity is all one Kumbaya People, until it does matter and is The Worst Evil Ever (like when white people displaced natives in the Americas, Australia, etc).

    It’s so very hard to avoid committing Thought Crimes these days without a manual to keep it all straight.

  37. @Anonymous
    Actually, Kossina was ethically a Pole, so I doubt he would have disparaged the ultimate 'eastward origin' of the Corded Ware folk.

    Actually, Kossina was ethically a Pole, so I doubt he would have disparaged the ultimate ‘eastward origin’ of the Corded Ware folk.

    He felt he was German when all Germans were of the old school and he acted accordingly. So yes, he might like “eastward origin”.

    “It is a land where pots of our ancestors are buried, so it should belong to us now.”

  38. @Anon
    Wait a minute....

    Archaeologists don't want to believe in massive migrations of peoples because that would be Nazi, i.e. the idea that ancients invaded other lands and took over.

    They would rather believe that different peoples stayed put in their own lands, and it was only the ideas that spread from one culture to another.

    Okay...

    But now, if nationalists say that (1) people should mostly stay in their own nations, (2) NOT invade-migrate into other nations and (3) learn from each other through communication of ideas... they, the nationalists, are called 'Nazi' whereas all the millions of invader-migrants from Asia, Africa, and Muslim world are seen as 'progressive'.

    Nationalists are happy with pots-not-people formula in today's world. If you want our pots, stay in your own nation and learn to make pots like we do. Do NOT barge into our nations for those pots.
    But nationalists are deemed as Nazis.

    Hmm... maybe the globalist logic goes like this.

    If you have special pots, your people may not take over other nations to share those pots.
    But if you have no pots, your people may take over nations with the pots.

    “They would rather believe that different peoples stayed put in their own lands, and it was only the ideas that spread from one culture to another.”

    Well it was totally easy in 3000 B.C. (woops, i mean 3000 BCE – must be careful to avoid another thought crime!) for people to exchange ideas while staying put. Back then they had Prehistoric Internet, which allowed then to transmit complex ideas while staying put. Nowadays, of course, our communications infrastructure is sorely lacking as compared to then – you know, besides books, trade, telephone, television, cell phone, text messaging, cheap and safe vacation travel, Facebutt, Snapchat, YouTube, Instagram, email, snail mail, internet, and all that – so we have to move actual physical people (permanently) – hundreds of millions of them – in order to get the benefit of exchange of ideas. There is no other way to go about it.

    And if the entire native populations of Sweden, Italy, France, Britain, Germany, Switzerland, Greece, Denmark, Poland, Hungary, Holland, Spain, and Estonia disappear due to the invasion, well that’s a small price to pay for the introduction of a few new Third World recipes and a new form of rap music. Can’t have anyone holding up progress on behalf of their own survival, dontcha know?

    • Replies: @Joseph Doaks
    Ho, ho, ho! Well said.
  39. @DFH
    Indian historians are similarly trying to claim that there was no 'Aryan invasion', instead there was just a peaceful movement into India of a large number of men who bred with local women.

    Indian historians are similarly trying to claim that there was no ‘Aryan invasion’, instead there was just a peaceful movement into India of a large number of men who bred with local women.

    So local women preferred tall, blonde Aryan strangers than their swarthy men? That’s racist! The conquest at least give the local men the dignity of being slaughtered.

    • Replies: @Lot
    The Aryans who invaded India were not blond, likely they looked Georgians, Armenians, and Northern Iranians.
  40. @Anonymous
    This article and Reich's comments are absolutely shot through with political concerns.

    In such an environment, how far can we trust Reich to make accurate findings, come to accurate conclusions, and publish accurate reports?

    It's actually really concerning he has been entrusted with this extremely scarce DNA raw material and archaeological remains that are part of our heritage.

    Nineteen-aughties archeology by a Pole that might somehow have been retroactively influenced by a 1930s German regime = “politicized”.

    Nineteen fortysix through the Current Year archaeology that is primarily, explicitly and rigidly reacting against the nineteen-aughties archeology = “not politicized”.

    QED

    /sarc

    This is also known as “Why we can’t have true things.”

    • Agree: AndrewR
  41. Stripped of political correctness, whether Nazi, Soviet, or latter-day SJW, common sense suggests that European* history from the Neolithic on is complicated. Also, it covers long stretches of time, centuries even.

    So it wasn’t all “Pots Not People”. Nor was it all Conan the Barbarian. Sometimes the one, sometimes the other, sometimes a mix. Entirely different forces (e.g. new diseases, hot/cold/wet/dry climate change, Gregory Cochran’s “boiling off” interpretation of recent Amish history) will account for other episodes.

    At his blog, Razib Khan provides a fascinating window into the study of ancient DNA, and how this tsunami of new information is (should be) altering interpretations of the past. From a couple of days ago, The barbarian invasions, illuminated by genetics. (Some familiar iSteve handles among Razib’s commentariat.)

    * Also Asian, African, American, and Oceanic.

  42. @Anonymous
    Actually, Kossina was ethically a Pole, so I doubt he would have disparaged the ultimate 'eastward origin' of the Corded Ware folk.

    Ethically a Pole

    … sounds like the title of a lost Blonde on Blonde track.

  43. @DFH
    Indian historians are similarly trying to claim that there was no 'Aryan invasion', instead there was just a peaceful movement into India of a large number of men who bred with local women.

    It’s not impossible. Perhaps the locals practiced a bizarre religion of self-loathing and distracting hedonism that passivated and neutered their men.

    • LOL: rogue-one
  44. The jomon people of japan also had corded ware.

    • Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski
    So, Japanese were honorary Aryans even then?
  45. Speaking of invaders and cartoons, has anyone tried to ban “Hagar the Horrible” yet? Because oppressors.

  46. major movements of people do occur. They are sometimes sharp and dramatic, and they involve large-scale population replacements over a relatively short period of time. We now can see that for the first time.

    The contact between people from Europe and Africa and the New World was a profound Earth-shattering event for our species, of course, in the last 500 years. But there have been profound and Earth-shattering events, again and again, every few thousand years in our history and that’s what ancient DNA is telling us.

    So what conclusion should we draw?

    You have to be more open to immigration. You have to be more open to the mixing of different peoples.

    Lol. I’m sure it’s a bit of squid ink, but still. “Population movements can be violent and nasty things, so we should welcome more of it.”

  47. @Anonymous
    Yep.

    The salient fact revealed in recent times, through studying the actual DNA profiles of ancient samples, is that the conclusions of the old time philologists and anthropologists - alas, so utterly abused and misused by the Nazis - were essentially correct, in that that an 'Indo European race' of warrior pastoralists, originating in the Pontic Steppe of the Ukraine, did, in fact spread their language and genes far and wide - from Spain, sweeping over India and to the confines of China.

    Strangely enough, it has been posited, through DNA methods that the ethnogenesis of the original Turks and Mongols had a Steppic component.

    “the original Turks and Mongols had a Steppic component”

    the Turks and Mongols came from the Steppes. How could they they not be Steppic? Great word there, incidentally.

  48. @Anonymous
    This article and Reich's comments are absolutely shot through with political concerns.

    In such an environment, how far can we trust Reich to make accurate findings, come to accurate conclusions, and publish accurate reports?

    It's actually really concerning he has been entrusted with this extremely scarce DNA raw material and archaeological remains that are part of our heritage.

    The interview concludes with

    It’s revealing that the differences among populations we see today are actually only a few thousand years old at most and that everybody is mixed. I think that if you pay any attention to this world, and have any degree of seriousness, then you can’t come out feeling affirmed in the racist view of the world. You have to be more open to immigration. You have to be more open to the mixing of different peoples. That’s your own history.

    This scientist is a SJW.

    One of the irritations about how the SJW Industry speaks for people such as myself is that I am perfectly willing to accept that America is multiracial. What I don’t accept is destroying our culture for its supremacy. This isn’t hate or ignorance. It’s an attachment to our last couple hundred years that I’m not willing to exchange for the supposed benevolence of the last couple thousand.

    A country with white settlement and culture that accepts minorities, or a dispossessed white culture overlorded by obnoxious SJWs? He says, “I think that if you pay any attention to this world, and have any degree of seriousness, then you can’t come out feeling affirmed in the racist view of the world.” I’d say that if you pay attention and are serious, you value the good our culture has provided and seek to preserve it for your offspring.

    • Replies: @knopf churlson
    Here is an interesting editorial the same David Reich wrote as a high schooler:

    https://www.nytimes.com/1991/06/03/opinion/voices-of-the-new-generation-the-sat-goes-pc.html
  49. So let me get this straight:

    Europe has always been “a nation of immigrants”, except when there was new pottery. Then the borders were closed and the new pots shipped around until everyone had one and it was safe for people to move about the continent.

    New pottery was the “seat belt fastened” sign of prehistoric times.

  50. @AndrewR
    How much do we - or can we - know about mass disease outbreaks among prehistoric ancient peoples?

    How much do we – or can we – know about mass disease outbreaks among prehistoric ancient peoples?

    Dunno. As noted above, Greg Cochran doesn’t think that disease was much of a factor:

    This probably happened through war and massacre. If you think otherwise, you reject the historical record – have a fundamentally false notion of human nature. Disease is not too plausible as a causal factor, since the proto-Brits were not a long-isolated population like the Amerindians or Polynesians, while for that matter some of the most potent crowd diseases, smallpox for example, weren’t even around yet.

    Here’s what WIKIPEDIA has to say on the topic of smallpox:

    The timing of the arrival of smallpox in Europe and south-western Asia is less clear. Smallpox is not clearly described in either the Old or New Testaments of the Bible or in the literature of the Greeks or Romans. While some have identified the Plague of Athens—which was said to have originated in “Ethiopia” and Egypt—or the plague that lifted Carthage’s 396 BC siege of Syracuse—with smallpox,[3] many scholars agree it is very unlikely such a serious disease as variola major would have escaped being described by Hippocrates if it had existed in the Mediterranean region during his lifetime.[58] While the Antonine Plague that swept through the Roman Empire in AD 165–180 may have been caused by smallpox,[59] Saint Nicasius of Rheims became the patron saint of smallpox victims for having supposedly survived a bout in 450,[3] and Saint Gregory of Tours recorded a similar outbreak in France and Italy in 580, the first use of the term variola;[3] other historians speculate that Arab armies first carried smallpox from Africa into Southwestern Europe during the 7th and 8th centuries.[25] In the 9th century the Persian physician, Rhazes, provided one of the most definitive descriptions of smallpox and was the first to differentiate smallpox from measles and chickenpox in his Kitab fi al-jadari wa-al-hasbah (The Book of Smallpox and Measles).[60]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox#History

    The date of the appearance of smallpox is not settled. It most likely evolved from a terrestrial African rodent virus between 68,000 and 16,000 years ago.[27] The wide range of dates is due to the different records used to calibrate the molecular clock. One clade was the variola major strains (the more clinically severe form of smallpox) which spread from Asia between 400 and 1,600 years ago. A second clade included both alastrim minor (a phenotypically mild smallpox) described from the American continents and isolates from West Africa which diverged from an ancestral strain between 1,400 and 6,300 years before present. This clade further diverged into two subclades at least 800 years ago.[28] A second estimate has placed the separation of variola from Taterapox at 3000–4000 years ago.[29] This is consistent with archaeological and historical evidence regarding the appearance of smallpox as a human disease which suggests a relatively recent origin. If the mutation rate is assumed to be similar to that of the herpesviruses, the divergence date between variola from Taterapox has been estimated to be 50,000 years ago.[29] While this is consistent with the other published estimates, it suggests that the archaeological and historical evidence is very incomplete. Better estimates of mutation rates in these viruses are needed.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox#Evolution

  51. I wonder if a radically opposite archeological finding was made – viz, pottery with characteristics of pottery in Subsaharan Africa was found in Europe, let’s say – whether the same concerns would be expressed, or whether there’d be a great overreach to propose that Europeans are all secretly black Africans.

    I think we all know the answer. So the issue isn’t really using archeology for political or social ends (even if false), but rather which political or social ends are served by the archeology.

  52. There appear to be very few white men in David Reich’s lab.

    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/people

  53. if you see in the archaeological record that a particular style of pottery spread, then the pots must have spread (via trade or copying), not the people who made the pots.

    Amazon Drone delivery, 3rd millennium BC style.

    The “bolshevik”/”cultural Marxist” (Jewish) hijacking/retconning of history has done terrible damage to scientific discovery, and nowhere worse IMO than in the human studies (otherwise called “social sciences”).

    For half a century or more entire fields of inquiry have been arrested or aborted out of fear of being called nazi/antisemitic or whatever. Their facts have been suppressed, their critical thinking erased, their people threatened and silenced.

    I view that as part of the adaptive strategy: defeat your genomic competitors, whose societies you occupy as a minority, by crippling its population’s highest-intelligence fraction. Then claim to be smarter than they, and also victims. (Even though their highest-intelligence fraction far outnumbers your entire worldwide population, which is why it is necessary to turn tens of millions of non-members of your tiny group into cultural cuckolds advocating for your group over their own.)

  54. @Foreign Expert
    The jomon people of japan also had corded ware.

    So, Japanese were honorary Aryans even then?

  55. @Anonymous
    This article and Reich's comments are absolutely shot through with political concerns.

    In such an environment, how far can we trust Reich to make accurate findings, come to accurate conclusions, and publish accurate reports?

    It's actually really concerning he has been entrusted with this extremely scarce DNA raw material and archaeological remains that are part of our heritage.

    Lol, absurd paranoia. He makes fun of German PC.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Lot wrote:

    Lol, absurd paranoia. He makes fun of German PC.

    Did you even read the article? For starters, he didn't make fun of "German PC" in the least. He took it very seriously, and in fact responded in a way that gave PC (or whatever you want to call it) influence in his work product). Here's Reich:

    I think that was a very sensitive issue to some of our coauthors, and one of the coauthors resigned because he felt we were returning to that idea of migration in archaeology that pots are the same as people. There have been a fair number of other coauthors from different parts of continental Europe who shared this anxiety.

    We responded to this by adding a lot of content to our papers to discuss these issues and contextualize them. Our results are actually almost diametrically opposite from what Kossina thought because these Corded Ware people come from the East, a place that Kossina would have despised as a source for them. But nevertheless it is true that there’s big population movements, and so I think what the DNA is doing is it’s forcing the hand of this discussion in archaeology, showing that in fact, major movements of people do occur.
     
    Here's more Reich:

    We should think we really don’t know what we’re talking about. When you see these replacements of Neanderthals by modern humans or Europeans and Africans substantially replacing Native Americans in the last 500 years or the people who built Stonehenge, who were obviously extraordinarily sophisticated, being replaced from these people from the continent, it doesn’t say something about the innate potential of these people. But it rather says something about the different immune systems or cultural mismatch.
     
    And finally, the big normative/political conclusion at the end:

    Reich: I think so. I know there are extremists who are interested in genealogy and genetics. But I think those are very marginal people, and there’s, of course, a concern they may impinge on the mainstream.

    But if you actually take any serious look at this data, it just confounds every stereotype. It’s revealing that the differences among populations we see today are actually only a few thousand years old at most and that everybody is mixed. I think that if you pay any attention to this world, and have any degree of seriousness, then you can’t come out feeling affirmed in the racist view of the world. You have to be more open to immigration. You have to be more open to the mixing of different peoples. That’s your own history.
     
  56. There’s a very famous German archaeologist named Gustaf Kossinna, who was the first or one of the first to come up with the idea of “material culture.” Say, you see similar pots, and therefore you’re in a region where there was shared community and aspects of culture.

    The accomplishment to which the biologist Richard Dawkins owes his scientific (as opposed to his public) reputation is his theory of the extended phenotype. Quite interestingly in view of the above, one illustration of the theory is seen in the nests of potter wasps. There are several species of them, spread widely around the world. These have a similar behavior pattern: the wasp stings a grub or caterpillar to paralyze it, builds a small mud nest around it, and lays its egg in the nest. Upon hatching, the wasp larva has a supply of food in the paralyzed caterpillar. The “pots” of each species of potter wasp differ in their forms to a degree that a trained observer can identify the species by the characteristics of its nest.

    Do you suppose Dawkins ever heard of Kossinna?

    In any event, it appears to me that the various material cultures of different races and ethnicities of man are as much their respective extended phenotypes as the morphologies of their nests are extended phenotypes of different species of potter wasps. To deny this is not a scientific but an ideological conclusion, in which Marx triumphs over Darwin.

    • Replies: @simmydimmy
    All this American ranting at the 'Marx' straw man is to be expected post Cold War I suppose. Got to have a boogie man to whip (and to hide behind as feminists do, 'We're not just hysterical women, we're Marxists!')

    But Christianity is the most powerful ideology which denies race and pretty much introduced the idea of universal human equality to the world (Buddhism a close second contender). Then Christian liberals like your Founding Fathers made equality political and presto, MLK.

  57. “He went so far as to argue that when you see the spread of these pots, you’re actually seeing a spread of people and there’s a one-to-one mapping for those things”.

    I like the mathematically rigorous strawman there. It’s not 3:2, has to be 1:1!

  58. Archaeologist and anthropologists don’t get a lot of push back because, really, who else is interested in cataloguing dung, charcoal and pottery pieces. I have a book about Amerindians and two anthropologist differ on some carbon dating, but no big deal, it’s only approximately 670 years or nearly seven centuries. So, if an archaeologist discovers the remains of an upright piano in a Cherokee campsite in Texas, is it because the Cherokees shared DNA with the white settlers, whose bones and scalps are also found nearby, or something else. I get so confused.

    • Replies: @Charles Erwin Wilson II
    LOL.
  59. @Bies Podkrakowski

    Indian historians are similarly trying to claim that there was no ‘Aryan invasion’, instead there was just a peaceful movement into India of a large number of men who bred with local women.

     

    So local women preferred tall, blonde Aryan strangers than their swarthy men? That's racist! The conquest at least give the local men the dignity of being slaughtered.

    The Aryans who invaded India were not blond, likely they looked Georgians, Armenians, and Northern Iranians.

    • Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski
    That had to be relief for Dravidian men.
    , @Twinkie

    The Aryans who invaded India were not blond, likely they looked Georgians, Armenians, and Northern Iranians.
     
    This is why the use of the word "Aryan" is troublesome with the general public. It is now, forever, identified with the Nordicism of the Nazis.

    Aryan simply means Iranic. Mr. Sailer actually uses the word incorrectly. The Corded Ceramic Culture people were from the steppes and contributed their genes to a number of widely divergent populations, including a hefty chunk of Europe, but also the Middle East, Central Asia, and South Asia.

    One might argue that they were pre-Aryan or proto-Aryan (or proto-Indo European), but they (or the related Yamnaya) were not "Aryan." Not in the sense of the popular usage or in the more scientific linguistic sense.
    , @International Jew
    I wonder if they wore gold bling too, over their dark-haired chests.
    , @Anonymous
    This is controversial.

    The Sintashta/Andronovo archaeological sites, in central Asia, have been identified by some with the proto Indo-Iranians.
    DNA analysis of remains from Sintashta/Andronovo indicate autosomal and phenotypic similarity with modern eastern/northern Europeans.
  60. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    A bit off topic. Focusing on linguistics,if one looks at a linguistic map of pre-Columbian North America you will see that the Na-Dene/Athabascan language dominates the northwestern part of what is now Canada and Alaska up to the Arctic Sea. Over 1500 miles to the south and due east there is a smaller, though by no means insignificant, Na-Dene/Athabascan presence in what is now Eastern AZ, New Mexico, part of Colorado, West Texas and on up through what is now Oklahoma and Kansas. Between those geographic areas however there is something of a linguistic “black hole” where there does not appear to be any trace of this language group. There are small isolated areas along the Pacific Coast of the US where the language can be found but this can be explained as due to migration by boat. Any evolutionary linguists out there who can account for this apparent phenomenon? The only similarity that comes immediately to mind is in the case of Romanian, a so-called “Romance” language, which is spoken in an area which is otherwise surrounded by Slavic, Greek, Hungarian and Albanian speakers, being cut off geographically from the rest of Romance speaking Europe (Italy, France and the Iberian Peninsula).

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    If you ask non-Na-Dene Indians in the American southwest like the Hopi about it, they'll tell you all about when those Na-Dene bastards like the Navajo invaded and stole their lands, a little before the Spaniards showed up.
  61. According to my 23-and-Me results I have mostly English and cross Channel ancestry with a little piece from Iberia. What would that mean?

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    That all your ancestors came from Africa. You waz Kangz, and sheeit. ;-)
  62. @Luke Lea
    According to my 23-and-Me results I have mostly English and cross Channel ancestry with a little piece from Iberia. What would that mean?

    That all your ancestors came from Africa. You waz Kangz, and sheeit. 😉

  63. @istevefan

    showing that in fact, major movements of people do occur. They are sometimes sharp and dramatic, and they involve large-scale population replacements over a relatively short period of time. We now can see that for the first time.
     
    We can now see it for the first time? If you open your eyes you can see it in real time. It is happening beneath your noses.

    And if you are disinclined by PC to view the events that you, J. Ross, are referring to as an instance of that large-scale population/demographic shift, well then, there are plenty of examples available to you within the last thousand years in Western Europe. For instance, there is the massive influx of Saxons, Angles, and Jutes into what is now England that forced the Romano-Celtics to the fringes into Cornwall and Wales. And then the influx of Vikings into Northern England a few centuries later. In that instance, though, there may have been more mixing after the initial upending of the social order, as the Danes and such were Germanic peoples, as were the Anglo-Saxons. This can be seen in the material artifacts to some degree, and more profoundly by the absorption of Danish words and cultural norms into the area of the Danelaw.

    I guess some of the colleagues who absented themselves were, if not true believers, then at least people afraid of being tarred as crypto-Nazis by the entrenched true believers in the field; ostracism and loss of career can be strong motivators to avert one’s eyes from inconvenient new paradigms.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Say what now? I am an iSteve fan but not the iStevefan.
    , @Grace Jones
    Study:

    We estimate the proportion of Saxon ancestry in Cent./S England as very likely to be under 50%, and most likely in the range of 10–40%.

    In particular, we see no clear genetic evidence of the Danish Viking occupation and control of a large part of England, either in separate UK clusters in that region, or in estimated ancestry profiles, suggesting a relatively limited input of DNA from the Danish Vikings and subsequent mixing with nearby regions, and clear evidence for only a minority Norse contribution (about 25%) to the current Orkney population.

    We saw no evidence of a general ‘Celtic’ population in non-Saxon parts of the UK. Instead there were many distinct genetic clusters in these regions, some amongst the most different in our study, in the sense of being most separated in the hierarchical clustering tree in Fig. 1. Further, the ancestry profile of Cornwall (perhaps expected to resemble other Celtic clusters) is quite different from that of the Welsh clusters, and much closer to that of Devon, and Cent./S England. However, the data do suggest that the Welsh clusters represent populations that are more similar to the early post-Ice-Age settlers of Britain than those from elsewhere in the UK.
     

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/03/british-origins-leslie-et-al-2015.html
  64. @istevefan

    showing that in fact, major movements of people do occur. They are sometimes sharp and dramatic, and they involve large-scale population replacements over a relatively short period of time. We now can see that for the first time.
     
    We can now see it for the first time? If you open your eyes you can see it in real time. It is happening beneath your noses.

    Oops, sorry, iSteve fan. Picked up wrong name to respond to.

  65. @JerseyJeffersonian
    And if you are disinclined by PC to view the events that you, J. Ross, are referring to as an instance of that large-scale population/demographic shift, well then, there are plenty of examples available to you within the last thousand years in Western Europe. For instance, there is the massive influx of Saxons, Angles, and Jutes into what is now England that forced the Romano-Celtics to the fringes into Cornwall and Wales. And then the influx of Vikings into Northern England a few centuries later. In that instance, though, there may have been more mixing after the initial upending of the social order, as the Danes and such were Germanic peoples, as were the Anglo-Saxons. This can be seen in the material artifacts to some degree, and more profoundly by the absorption of Danish words and cultural norms into the area of the Danelaw.

    I guess some of the colleagues who absented themselves were, if not true believers, then at least people afraid of being tarred as crypto-Nazis by the entrenched true believers in the field; ostracism and loss of career can be strong motivators to avert one's eyes from inconvenient new paradigms.

    Say what now? I am an iSteve fan but not the iStevefan.

  66. @Anonymous
    A bit off topic. Focusing on linguistics,if one looks at a linguistic map of pre-Columbian North America you will see that the Na-Dene/Athabascan language dominates the northwestern part of what is now Canada and Alaska up to the Arctic Sea. Over 1500 miles to the south and due east there is a smaller, though by no means insignificant, Na-Dene/Athabascan presence in what is now Eastern AZ, New Mexico, part of Colorado, West Texas and on up through what is now Oklahoma and Kansas. Between those geographic areas however there is something of a linguistic "black hole" where there does not appear to be any trace of this language group. There are small isolated areas along the Pacific Coast of the US where the language can be found but this can be explained as due to migration by boat. Any evolutionary linguists out there who can account for this apparent phenomenon? The only similarity that comes immediately to mind is in the case of Romanian, a so-called "Romance" language, which is spoken in an area which is otherwise surrounded by Slavic, Greek, Hungarian and Albanian speakers, being cut off geographically from the rest of Romance speaking Europe (Italy, France and the Iberian Peninsula).

    If you ask non-Na-Dene Indians in the American southwest like the Hopi about it, they’ll tell you all about when those Na-Dene bastards like the Navajo invaded and stole their lands, a little before the Spaniards showed up.

  67. 1. “Aryan” is a modern (20th century) technical term that means EXACTLY the same thing as “Indo-European”. And so the Greeks and Romans and Celts were/are “Aryans”.

    2. We know from pieces of written history and burial finds that Greek and Roman amphora were used in Celtic Europe prior to 100 BC (and for centuries afterward). We also know that the Celts never made amphora themselves, despite centuries of importing wine (and most other bulk products) in Greek or Roman clay jugs.

    So, sometimes the locals adopt a piece of material culture and sometimes they don’t. But what we know from WRITTEN histories is that right up until the Romans DESTROYED Celtic Europe, Celtica had not been colonized by Greco-Roman PEOPLE, despite the occasional use of Greek or Latin alphabets for inscriptions.

  68. @backup
    Not to spoil the fun of spooking leftists, but we mostly find Corded Ware people [i]being[/i] slaughtered. See the Eulau case for a good example.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=wKn05BbEMcs

    “we mostly find Corded Ware people being slaughtered.”

    Well, we find the males being slaughtered. The females were taken (“inmarried”, as the professor rather delicately puts it) by the steppe nomads.

    Some aspects he did not address:

    · It appears that these Aryan steppe nomads, in spite of probably abducting their wives after massacring their men, were monogamous (e.g., burials of nuclear families). If so, this must be extremely unusual. Nearly all cultures in history that can afford it are polygynous (multi-wived), and if you’re essentially just grabbing your wives at will from a militarily inferior culture, there isn’t really anything stopping you from getting as many wives as you want. When the the Romans encountered the early Germans (a couple of thousand years after the archeological period in the video), they remarked upon the peculiarity that the Germans were monogamous, so apparently this characteristic is deep-seated.

    · If the the men were all steppic and the women were all abducted farm girls, then the modern descendants of these people must have radically different male and female (Y- and mtDNA) chromosomes. They are, in effect, the male/female fusion of two different races.

    • Replies: @Lot
    A culture can be monogamous and make the captured females concubines and slaves.
    , @Anon

    Well, we find the males being slaughtered. The females were taken (“inmarried”, as the professor rather delicately puts it) by the steppe nomads.
     
    Can you provide us with a citation?
    , @Anonymous
    If the the men were all steppic and the women were all abducted farm girls, then the modern descendants of these people must have radically different male and female (Y- and mtDNA) chromosomes. They are, in effect, the male/female fusion of two different races.

    Does this have any support in the DNA analysis?

  69. @YetAnotherAnon
    "large-scale population replacements over a relatively short period of time"

    Aren't there several other words, like "massacre", "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" which describe this process?

    Here's a historical example.

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2018/03/22/caesar-bloody-caesar/


    The mortality rate is staggering, as ten legions of highly trained and battle-hardened Roman soldiers methodically work their way through the states of Gaul, targeting entire peoples for destruction. After defeating the Belgian Nervii, Caesar reports that both the people and their name “were reduced almost to annihilation”: survivors tell him that of 60,000 men of fighting age, only five hundred remain. Nor was this absent-minded genocide: when Caesar prepares a campaign against the Eburones in northeastern Gaul, he boasts of his intention “to destroy their stirps ac nomen [stock and name].”

    Death was not the only way to destroy a people. When the Atuatuci launched a surprise attack on Caesar’s besieging army after negotiating a surrender, 53,000 of them were sold as slaves in a single lot, and the recently identified site of their city, the Iron Age fortification of Thuin, tells its own tale: a few hoards of gold that must have been hidden in the panic and then missed by Caesar’s solders; piles of sling bullets; and then nothing at all for two hundred years.
     

    You’ve hit on one of the main reasons “pots, not people” was just such an incredibly dumb theory: all the classical references to killing off whole tribes and cities. Are we to believe people were more civilized before writing?

    It is really just a shocking display of the reality distortion that politics has on whole fields of study, especially when you consider people were stumbling over trenches filled with arrowheads, etc.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    all the classical references to killing off whole tribes and cities.

    Which classical works reference this?
    , @AnotherDad

    You’ve hit on one of the main reasons “pots, not people” was just such an incredibly dumb theory: all the classical references to killing off whole tribes and cities. Are we to believe people were more civilized before writing?

    It is really just a shocking display of the reality distortion that politics has on whole fields of study, especially when you consider people were stumbling over trenches filled with arrowheads, etc.
     
    Well said, songbird. I'd been meaning to make this point earlier in the day.

    You don't need DNA to debunk it. It is and was just an objectively stupid, nonsensical position at variance with all the evidence we have.

    And I've got to think that while "Hitler!" is a huge part of it, it also has something to do with feminization of the field. The first few gals are motivated, intellectually curious and ok--if nothing else, constrained by the guys dominating the field. But then as leftist politics starts pushing the anti-military (i.e. anti-Western military) line and anti-nationalism and the field starts getting in more feminist gals who really don't understand male behavior and don't want believe in a natural divergence in sex roles ... the field just collapses as a truth seeking endeavor and you get "pots not people" nonsense.
  70. The Corded Ware were previously known as the Battle Axe culture because they burred their dead with battle axes. This was once considered significant to archeologists, because it indicates weapons were an important part of their culture. The Battle Axe (Corded Ware) peoples were horse riders in an age when most of the aboriginal of Europe were not yet riding horses. The aboriginal males were soon replaced by the invaders, this is seen in the disappearance of the aboriginal Y chromosomes , which were replaced with Y chromosomes from the invading people. Corded Ware was genetically strongly related to the Yamnaya. A genetic study conducted by Haak et al. (2015) found that a large proportion of the ancestry of the Corded Ware culture’s population is similar to the Yamna culture, tracing the Corded Ware culture’s origins to migrations of the Yamna from the steppes 4,500 years ago.[3] About 75% of the DNA of late Neolithic Corded Ware skeletons found in Germany was a precise match to DNA from individuals of the Yamna culture.

  71. @Lot
    The Aryans who invaded India were not blond, likely they looked Georgians, Armenians, and Northern Iranians.

    That had to be relief for Dravidian men.

  72. @wren
    I am still very confused how DNA shows race doesn't exist, when 23andme shows you right front and center how much neandertal you have in you.

    Which drops down to about zero for some regions of the world, and the people living there.

    It tells exactly what percent of Ashkenazi, what percent American Indian, etc, etc, etc.

    Do the Wojcickis ever discuss stuff like this at family gatherings?

    Do the Wojcickis ever discuss stuff like this at family gatherings?

    At first I thought you were referring to the Wachowskis, but that’s a different denial.

  73. @Crawfurdmuir

    There’s a very famous German archaeologist named Gustaf Kossinna, who was the first or one of the first to come up with the idea of “material culture.” Say, you see similar pots, and therefore you’re in a region where there was shared community and aspects of culture.
     
    The accomplishment to which the biologist Richard Dawkins owes his scientific (as opposed to his public) reputation is his theory of the extended phenotype. Quite interestingly in view of the above, one illustration of the theory is seen in the nests of potter wasps. There are several species of them, spread widely around the world. These have a similar behavior pattern: the wasp stings a grub or caterpillar to paralyze it, builds a small mud nest around it, and lays its egg in the nest. Upon hatching, the wasp larva has a supply of food in the paralyzed caterpillar. The "pots" of each species of potter wasp differ in their forms to a degree that a trained observer can identify the species by the characteristics of its nest.

    Do you suppose Dawkins ever heard of Kossinna?

    In any event, it appears to me that the various material cultures of different races and ethnicities of man are as much their respective extended phenotypes as the morphologies of their nests are extended phenotypes of different species of potter wasps. To deny this is not a scientific but an ideological conclusion, in which Marx triumphs over Darwin.

    All this American ranting at the ‘Marx’ straw man is to be expected post Cold War I suppose. Got to have a boogie man to whip (and to hide behind as feminists do, ‘We’re not just hysterical women, we’re Marxists!’)

    But Christianity is the most powerful ideology which denies race and pretty much introduced the idea of universal human equality to the world (Buddhism a close second contender). Then Christian liberals like your Founding Fathers made equality political and presto, MLK.

    • Agree: European-American
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Ranting? Marx is much more popular now than when there were clearer arguments against his ideas in the form of Commie failed states, and the kids in the Che shirts seem pretty unambiguous about their own view of Marx. Are there any non-Marxists in Europe beyond what would fit in a dinner party with Roger Scruton? Somehow I suspect that you are not counting as Marxists all the people who have him in the background because they take for granted that he was right.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    All this American ranting at the ‘Marx’ straw man
     
    Right! Because the murder of > 100 million people doesn't count for you, does it Einstein? Would a billion have been enough?

    But Christianity is the most powerful ideology which denies race and pretty much introduced the idea of universal human equality to the world
     
    Now you offer a straw man argument. Even an intermittent attendee of any Sunday School would know your claim is false. Equality was equality before God, and you are responsible for your actions. The Greek and slave, the male and female, had nothing to do with what your straw man argument posits.

    Then Christian liberals like your Founding Fathers made equality political and presto, MLK.
     
    It was equality before the law, your class did not make you an inferior - a hard-won principle derived from the notion that even the king must submit to the law. But you wouldn't know any of that would you? Just too damned hard to actually read what those you malign wrote.

    But you have your brethren, don't you? The commanding heights are occupied by your Marxist fellow travelers. And what a wonderful job they have done here, and across the globe.

    It takes a special kind of stupidity to embrace an ideology responsible for the greatest of all crimes against humanity. An ideology that even today continues to oppress, torture, and murder innocent people. Sick bastards would rightfully condemn you as an inferior, because you are a champion of the dishonesty, vice, and perversion.

    When you are swimming in the lake, remember that you were warned.
    , @Anon

    But Christianity is the most powerful ideology which denies race and pretty much introduced the idea of universal human equality to the world (Buddhism a close second contender).
     
    What about Islam?
    , @Crawfurdmuir

    But Christianity is the most powerful ideology which denies race and pretty much introduced the idea of universal human equality to the world (Buddhism a close second contender). Then Christian liberals like your Founding Fathers made equality political and presto, MLK.
     
    The equality asserted in the Declaration of Independence is assuredly not an equality of ability or character. One needs only to read Jefferson's Notes on Virginia to see that he did not believe in any such thing. It was an equality before the law. This was not a particularly Christian belief, but rather arose out of ancient English legal tradition.

    The Founding Fathers were not "Christian liberals"; some, like Jefferson, were deists, or, like Adams, were Unitarians. John Witherspoon was a Presbyterian minister, and Charles Carroll of Carrollton a Catholic, and cousin of the first Archbishop of Baltimore. They cannot easily be consigned to a sectarian pigeonhole.

    I agree that during the nineteenth and twentieth century a type of Christian liberalism or socialism arose, but in terms of the history of Christianity it is quite heterodox and unrepresentative. It is by no means a phenomenon exclusive to the United States.

    Don Colacho, as usual, gets to the heart of the matter in few words:

    "In their childish and vain attempt to attract the people, the modern clergy give socialist programs the function of being schemes for putting the Beatitudes into effect. The trick behind it consists in reducing to a collective structure external to the individual an ethical behavior that, unless it is individual and internal, is nothing. The modern clergy preach, in other words, that there is a social reform capable of wiping out the consequences of sin. From which one can deduce the pointlessness of redemption through Christ."
  74. @Anonymous
    Yep.

    The salient fact revealed in recent times, through studying the actual DNA profiles of ancient samples, is that the conclusions of the old time philologists and anthropologists - alas, so utterly abused and misused by the Nazis - were essentially correct, in that that an 'Indo European race' of warrior pastoralists, originating in the Pontic Steppe of the Ukraine, did, in fact spread their language and genes far and wide - from Spain, sweeping over India and to the confines of China.

    Strangely enough, it has been posited, through DNA methods that the ethnogenesis of the original Turks and Mongols had a Steppic component.

    The first farmers mainly reached Iberia following a coastal route through the northern Mediterranean Sea. The new study demonstrates that Neolithic Iberians show genetic differences to the migrant farmers that settled in Central and Northern Europe. “This suggests that all early farmers in Iberia trace most of their ancestry to the first Neolithic people that migrated into the peninsula and that later contributions from their central European counterparts were only minor,” says archaeogeneticist Cristina Valdiosera from La Trobe University in Australia, one of the lead authors of the study.

    Read more at https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2018/03/genetic-prehistory-of-iberia-differs.html

  75. The Nazis did the same to much of Western European thought as Hitler did to the name ‘Adolf’ and the toothbrush moustache. Our problem though is that thought is not like a name or style, there are no alternative truths. We must not stop drinking water simply because the biggest losers of the 20th Century drank water.

    Indeed, though I’d lay the responsibility at (((Big Media’s))) door, not Hitler’s. The Soviets murdered far more civilians than the Nazis did, and they started their genocide before the Nazis started theirs, and continued their genocide after the Nazis were defeated. Despite this, none of the methods and aims of communists (blank-slatism, “anti-racism,” equalitarianism, race-denial, “anti-discrimination” laws, Marxist methodology/cultural Marxism, big statism, anti-Christian polemic, anti-majoritarianism, minoritarianism, etc.) have been discredited. On the contrary, they’ve been adopted by the West.

  76. True, but all this time they could have produced animated movies exclusively and been cutting costs. Hollywood could have started producing only cartoons from at least the 1920s. Would audiences have accepted that? Would TV have only shown cartoons? CGI after all is just hyper-realistic 3D animation, and movies shot using digital film technology already look sort of like cartoons. With actual cartoons you still wind up with actors doing the voices but still they much cost less to produce.

    Wait, what? No, animated films have not cost less to produce than live-action since the twenties. And they certainly haven’t been as popular. Traditional animation is notoriously expensive; someone has to paint every frame by hand – the better it looked, the more it cost.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Disney's Snow White in 1938 was a huge Bet-The-Company feat that took several years to make and would have ruined Disney if it wasn't a success.
    , @J.Ross
    A major reason anime is so big in Japan is because they found ways to do it cheaper than live action, especially regarding locations and special effects.
  77. @simmydimmy
    All this American ranting at the 'Marx' straw man is to be expected post Cold War I suppose. Got to have a boogie man to whip (and to hide behind as feminists do, 'We're not just hysterical women, we're Marxists!')

    But Christianity is the most powerful ideology which denies race and pretty much introduced the idea of universal human equality to the world (Buddhism a close second contender). Then Christian liberals like your Founding Fathers made equality political and presto, MLK.

    Ranting? Marx is much more popular now than when there were clearer arguments against his ideas in the form of Commie failed states, and the kids in the Che shirts seem pretty unambiguous about their own view of Marx. Are there any non-Marxists in Europe beyond what would fit in a dinner party with Roger Scruton? Somehow I suspect that you are not counting as Marxists all the people who have him in the background because they take for granted that he was right.

  78. Lol, absurd paranoia. He makes fun of German PC.

    Distrusting Jewish motives on racial/ethnic issues is common sense. I don’t see Jews farming out their “Jewish People’s Policy Institute” research to anyone. Never even heard of an attempt to count the Jewish population of the US that wasn’t carried out by Jews.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Is there a single _respectable_ gentile expert on Jews? John Murray Cuddihy was super bright and super influenced by New York Jewish intellectuals, but his "Ordeal of Civility" has gotten completely memoryholed.

    Superstar gentile novelists Updike and Wolfe had a little fun with Jewish characters (e.g., Bech and Kramer) but nobody in their right mind would be advised to try that today.

    Stephen Birmingham said he wasn't Jewish and he wrote a bestseller about German Jews ("Our Crowd") but that was a half century ago.

    , @Lot
    "Never even heard of an attempt to count the Jewish population of the US that wasn’t carried out by Jews."

    So are we wily Hebrews trying to over or understate our US population?

    "I don’t see Jews farming out their “Jewish People’s Policy Institute” research to anyone."

    How do you know? Aware of some qualified demographers rejected from a job there due to foreskin?
  79. @JerseyJeffersonian
    And if you are disinclined by PC to view the events that you, J. Ross, are referring to as an instance of that large-scale population/demographic shift, well then, there are plenty of examples available to you within the last thousand years in Western Europe. For instance, there is the massive influx of Saxons, Angles, and Jutes into what is now England that forced the Romano-Celtics to the fringes into Cornwall and Wales. And then the influx of Vikings into Northern England a few centuries later. In that instance, though, there may have been more mixing after the initial upending of the social order, as the Danes and such were Germanic peoples, as were the Anglo-Saxons. This can be seen in the material artifacts to some degree, and more profoundly by the absorption of Danish words and cultural norms into the area of the Danelaw.

    I guess some of the colleagues who absented themselves were, if not true believers, then at least people afraid of being tarred as crypto-Nazis by the entrenched true believers in the field; ostracism and loss of career can be strong motivators to avert one's eyes from inconvenient new paradigms.

    Study:

    We estimate the proportion of Saxon ancestry in Cent./S England as very likely to be under 50%, and most likely in the range of 10–40%.

    In particular, we see no clear genetic evidence of the Danish Viking occupation and control of a large part of England, either in separate UK clusters in that region, or in estimated ancestry profiles, suggesting a relatively limited input of DNA from the Danish Vikings and subsequent mixing with nearby regions, and clear evidence for only a minority Norse contribution (about 25%) to the current Orkney population.

    We saw no evidence of a general ‘Celtic’ population in non-Saxon parts of the UK. Instead there were many distinct genetic clusters in these regions, some amongst the most different in our study, in the sense of being most separated in the hierarchical clustering tree in Fig. 1. Further, the ancestry profile of Cornwall (perhaps expected to resemble other Celtic clusters) is quite different from that of the Welsh clusters, and much closer to that of Devon, and Cent./S England. However, the data do suggest that the Welsh clusters represent populations that are more similar to the early post-Ice-Age settlers of Britain than those from elsewhere in the UK.

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2015/03/british-origins-leslie-et-al-2015.html

  80. @Almost Missouri

    "we mostly find Corded Ware people being slaughtered."
     
    Well, we find the males being slaughtered. The females were taken ("inmarried", as the professor rather delicately puts it) by the steppe nomads.

    Some aspects he did not address:

    · It appears that these Aryan steppe nomads, in spite of probably abducting their wives after massacring their men, were monogamous (e.g., burials of nuclear families). If so, this must be extremely unusual. Nearly all cultures in history that can afford it are polygynous (multi-wived), and if you're essentially just grabbing your wives at will from a militarily inferior culture, there isn't really anything stopping you from getting as many wives as you want. When the the Romans encountered the early Germans (a couple of thousand years after the archeological period in the video), they remarked upon the peculiarity that the Germans were monogamous, so apparently this characteristic is deep-seated.

    · If the the men were all steppic and the women were all abducted farm girls, then the modern descendants of these people must have radically different male and female (Y- and mtDNA) chromosomes. They are, in effect, the male/female fusion of two different races.

    A culture can be monogamous and make the captured females concubines and slaves.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    Well, kinda. If men are monogamous, it implies a certain authority in the women they wife, such that the wives may not tolerate concubines about the household. The wife may turn a blind eye to unexplained pregnancies among slave women, so long as the progeny don't dilute the inheritance and authority of the wife's own offspring. (There is a reason that the status of "wife" is sought after in traditional culture.) Nevertheless, a lot of oat-sowing by the men would result in a large underclass of bastards raised by single mothers, which is always a recipe for collapse.
  81. @Svigor

    Lol, absurd paranoia. He makes fun of German PC.
     
    Distrusting Jewish motives on racial/ethnic issues is common sense. I don't see Jews farming out their "Jewish People's Policy Institute" research to anyone. Never even heard of an attempt to count the Jewish population of the US that wasn't carried out by Jews.

    Is there a single _respectable_ gentile expert on Jews? John Murray Cuddihy was super bright and super influenced by New York Jewish intellectuals, but his “Ordeal of Civility” has gotten completely memoryholed.

    Superstar gentile novelists Updike and Wolfe had a little fun with Jewish characters (e.g., Bech and Kramer) but nobody in their right mind would be advised to try that today.

    Stephen Birmingham said he wasn’t Jewish and he wrote a bestseller about German Jews (“Our Crowd”) but that was a half century ago.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    >Is there a single _respectable_ gentile expert on Jews?

    Don't talk about Hilaire Belloc.
    , @Lot
    What does "expert on Jews" mean? Trump grew up in NYC and has a lot of expensive apartment rentals in the NY metro and florida, plus a bunch of Jews in his family. I think he would count. And there are probably a lot of experts on ancient jews at bible colleges.
    , @Anonymous
    How about the English historian Paul Johnson?

    A few years ago he wrote a great big tome on the subject.
  82. @Svigor

    True, but all this time they could have produced animated movies exclusively and been cutting costs. Hollywood could have started producing only cartoons from at least the 1920s. Would audiences have accepted that? Would TV have only shown cartoons? CGI after all is just hyper-realistic 3D animation, and movies shot using digital film technology already look sort of like cartoons. With actual cartoons you still wind up with actors doing the voices but still they much cost less to produce.
     
    Wait, what? No, animated films have not cost less to produce than live-action since the twenties. And they certainly haven't been as popular. Traditional animation is notoriously expensive; someone has to paint every frame by hand - the better it looked, the more it cost.

    Disney’s Snow White in 1938 was a huge Bet-The-Company feat that took several years to make and would have ruined Disney if it wasn’t a success.


  83. Astronaut Scott Kelly Now Has Different DNA Than His Identical Twin Brother After One Year In Space

    Huh? I can see things like bone density and height changing while spending time in space, but 7% of your DNA changes?? Consider me skeptical.

    • Replies: @songbird
    I think they are just talking about methylation and epigenetics. Essentially, the same DNA, possibly some different regulation and activity. It is definitely a clickbaity headline.

    It was kind of a stupid experiment, IMO, because they were both astronauts. I get that they studied them both before and could baseline, but it still seems kind of stupid to pick perhaps the only two twins who are both astronauts.
  84. @Svigor

    True, but all this time they could have produced animated movies exclusively and been cutting costs. Hollywood could have started producing only cartoons from at least the 1920s. Would audiences have accepted that? Would TV have only shown cartoons? CGI after all is just hyper-realistic 3D animation, and movies shot using digital film technology already look sort of like cartoons. With actual cartoons you still wind up with actors doing the voices but still they much cost less to produce.
     
    Wait, what? No, animated films have not cost less to produce than live-action since the twenties. And they certainly haven't been as popular. Traditional animation is notoriously expensive; someone has to paint every frame by hand - the better it looked, the more it cost.

    A major reason anime is so big in Japan is because they found ways to do it cheaper than live action, especially regarding locations and special effects.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Of course, anime looks cheap.
  85. @Steve Sailer
    Is there a single _respectable_ gentile expert on Jews? John Murray Cuddihy was super bright and super influenced by New York Jewish intellectuals, but his "Ordeal of Civility" has gotten completely memoryholed.

    Superstar gentile novelists Updike and Wolfe had a little fun with Jewish characters (e.g., Bech and Kramer) but nobody in their right mind would be advised to try that today.

    Stephen Birmingham said he wasn't Jewish and he wrote a bestseller about German Jews ("Our Crowd") but that was a half century ago.

    >Is there a single _respectable_ gentile expert on Jews?

    Don’t talk about Hilaire Belloc.

  86. @J.Ross
    A major reason anime is so big in Japan is because they found ways to do it cheaper than live action, especially regarding locations and special effects.

    Of course, anime looks cheap.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    It's effectively competing with TV, which can be unjustifiably expensive, but still look cheap, and have far inferior writing.
  87. @Buffalo Joe
    Archaeologist and anthropologists don't get a lot of push back because, really, who else is interested in cataloguing dung, charcoal and pottery pieces. I have a book about Amerindians and two anthropologist differ on some carbon dating, but no big deal, it's only approximately 670 years or nearly seven centuries. So, if an archaeologist discovers the remains of an upright piano in a Cherokee campsite in Texas, is it because the Cherokees shared DNA with the white settlers, whose bones and scalps are also found nearby, or something else. I get so confused.

    LOL.

  88. @YetAnotherAnon
    "large-scale population replacements over a relatively short period of time"

    Aren't there several other words, like "massacre", "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing" which describe this process?

    Here's a historical example.

    http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2018/03/22/caesar-bloody-caesar/


    The mortality rate is staggering, as ten legions of highly trained and battle-hardened Roman soldiers methodically work their way through the states of Gaul, targeting entire peoples for destruction. After defeating the Belgian Nervii, Caesar reports that both the people and their name “were reduced almost to annihilation”: survivors tell him that of 60,000 men of fighting age, only five hundred remain. Nor was this absent-minded genocide: when Caesar prepares a campaign against the Eburones in northeastern Gaul, he boasts of his intention “to destroy their stirps ac nomen [stock and name].”

    Death was not the only way to destroy a people. When the Atuatuci launched a surprise attack on Caesar’s besieging army after negotiating a surrender, 53,000 of them were sold as slaves in a single lot, and the recently identified site of their city, the Iron Age fortification of Thuin, tells its own tale: a few hoards of gold that must have been hidden in the panic and then missed by Caesar’s solders; piles of sling bullets; and then nothing at all for two hundred years.
     

    In spite of all of that, the Gauls remained rather intact compared to some other peoples the Romans conquered. Of the five modern Romance languages, French retains by far the most Celtic influence, which tells me the Gauls were never quite as assimilated as the Iberians and Lusitanians. And far west Brittany actually kept their native Celtic language mostly intact during the Roman era, being likely only nominally under the control of Rome. So the French comic book “Asterix” does have a thread of reality to back it up.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    And far west Brittany actually kept their native Celtic language mostly intact during the Roman era, being likely only nominally under the control of Rome.
     
    Breton does not derive from Gaulish; it was brought to Brittany by immigrants from Britain during the Dark Ages:

    Breton was brought from Great Britain to Armorica by migrating Britons during the Early Middle Ages; it is thus an Insular Celtic language, and as such not closely related to the Continental Celtic Gaulish language which had been spoken in pre-Roman Gaul. Breton is most closely related to Cornish, both being Southwestern Brittonic languages.[6] Welsh and the extinct Cumbric are the more distantly related Western Brittonic languages.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_language
  89. @Almost Missouri

    "we mostly find Corded Ware people being slaughtered."
     
    Well, we find the males being slaughtered. The females were taken ("inmarried", as the professor rather delicately puts it) by the steppe nomads.

    Some aspects he did not address:

    · It appears that these Aryan steppe nomads, in spite of probably abducting their wives after massacring their men, were monogamous (e.g., burials of nuclear families). If so, this must be extremely unusual. Nearly all cultures in history that can afford it are polygynous (multi-wived), and if you're essentially just grabbing your wives at will from a militarily inferior culture, there isn't really anything stopping you from getting as many wives as you want. When the the Romans encountered the early Germans (a couple of thousand years after the archeological period in the video), they remarked upon the peculiarity that the Germans were monogamous, so apparently this characteristic is deep-seated.

    · If the the men were all steppic and the women were all abducted farm girls, then the modern descendants of these people must have radically different male and female (Y- and mtDNA) chromosomes. They are, in effect, the male/female fusion of two different races.

    Well, we find the males being slaughtered. The females were taken (“inmarried”, as the professor rather delicately puts it) by the steppe nomads.

    Can you provide us with a citation?

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    All of history until a few hundred years ago when Christianity started sinking in in Europe.
  90. @simmydimmy
    All this American ranting at the 'Marx' straw man is to be expected post Cold War I suppose. Got to have a boogie man to whip (and to hide behind as feminists do, 'We're not just hysterical women, we're Marxists!')

    But Christianity is the most powerful ideology which denies race and pretty much introduced the idea of universal human equality to the world (Buddhism a close second contender). Then Christian liberals like your Founding Fathers made equality political and presto, MLK.

    All this American ranting at the ‘Marx’ straw man

    Right! Because the murder of > 100 million people doesn’t count for you, does it Einstein? Would a billion have been enough?

    But Christianity is the most powerful ideology which denies race and pretty much introduced the idea of universal human equality to the world

    Now you offer a straw man argument. Even an intermittent attendee of any Sunday School would know your claim is false. Equality was equality before God, and you are responsible for your actions. The Greek and slave, the male and female, had nothing to do with what your straw man argument posits.

    Then Christian liberals like your Founding Fathers made equality political and presto, MLK.

    It was equality before the law, your class did not make you an inferior – a hard-won principle derived from the notion that even the king must submit to the law. But you wouldn’t know any of that would you? Just too damned hard to actually read what those you malign wrote.

    But you have your brethren, don’t you? The commanding heights are occupied by your Marxist fellow travelers. And what a wonderful job they have done here, and across the globe.

    It takes a special kind of stupidity to embrace an ideology responsible for the greatest of all crimes against humanity. An ideology that even today continues to oppress, torture, and murder innocent people. Sick bastards would rightfully condemn you as an inferior, because you are a champion of the dishonesty, vice, and perversion.

    When you are swimming in the lake, remember that you were warned.

  91. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Almost Missouri

    "we mostly find Corded Ware people being slaughtered."
     
    Well, we find the males being slaughtered. The females were taken ("inmarried", as the professor rather delicately puts it) by the steppe nomads.

    Some aspects he did not address:

    · It appears that these Aryan steppe nomads, in spite of probably abducting their wives after massacring their men, were monogamous (e.g., burials of nuclear families). If so, this must be extremely unusual. Nearly all cultures in history that can afford it are polygynous (multi-wived), and if you're essentially just grabbing your wives at will from a militarily inferior culture, there isn't really anything stopping you from getting as many wives as you want. When the the Romans encountered the early Germans (a couple of thousand years after the archeological period in the video), they remarked upon the peculiarity that the Germans were monogamous, so apparently this characteristic is deep-seated.

    · If the the men were all steppic and the women were all abducted farm girls, then the modern descendants of these people must have radically different male and female (Y- and mtDNA) chromosomes. They are, in effect, the male/female fusion of two different races.

    If the the men were all steppic and the women were all abducted farm girls, then the modern descendants of these people must have radically different male and female (Y- and mtDNA) chromosomes. They are, in effect, the male/female fusion of two different races.

    Does this have any support in the DNA analysis?

  92. @songbird
    You've hit on one of the main reasons "pots, not people" was just such an incredibly dumb theory: all the classical references to killing off whole tribes and cities. Are we to believe people were more civilized before writing?

    It is really just a shocking display of the reality distortion that politics has on whole fields of study, especially when you consider people were stumbling over trenches filled with arrowheads, etc.

    all the classical references to killing off whole tribes and cities.

    Which classical works reference this?

    • Replies: @songbird
    It was quite a common practice to kill off all the men, after a city was taken, and settle the land with the victor's men. Anyone who wasn't good slave material, including the elderly were put to he sword. That wouldn't necessarily result in genetic death, but it is quite probable that slaves had less children, so quite a diminution of genetic legacy.

    Basically, any war history references this, including the Peloponnesian War. One example would be the Siege of Melos where Athens was the aggressor. There's another example in that war where they even killed the dogs.
  93. @simmydimmy
    All this American ranting at the 'Marx' straw man is to be expected post Cold War I suppose. Got to have a boogie man to whip (and to hide behind as feminists do, 'We're not just hysterical women, we're Marxists!')

    But Christianity is the most powerful ideology which denies race and pretty much introduced the idea of universal human equality to the world (Buddhism a close second contender). Then Christian liberals like your Founding Fathers made equality political and presto, MLK.

    But Christianity is the most powerful ideology which denies race and pretty much introduced the idea of universal human equality to the world (Buddhism a close second contender).

    What about Islam?

  94. @Lot
    The Aryans who invaded India were not blond, likely they looked Georgians, Armenians, and Northern Iranians.

    The Aryans who invaded India were not blond, likely they looked Georgians, Armenians, and Northern Iranians.

    This is why the use of the word “Aryan” is troublesome with the general public. It is now, forever, identified with the Nordicism of the Nazis.

    Aryan simply means Iranic. Mr. Sailer actually uses the word incorrectly. The Corded Ceramic Culture people were from the steppes and contributed their genes to a number of widely divergent populations, including a hefty chunk of Europe, but also the Middle East, Central Asia, and South Asia.

    One might argue that they were pre-Aryan or proto-Aryan (or proto-Indo European), but they (or the related Yamnaya) were not “Aryan.” Not in the sense of the popular usage or in the more scientific linguistic sense.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    This is why the use of the word “Aryan” is troublesome with the general public. It is now, forever, identified with the Nordicism of the Nazis.
     
    Which is kind of amusing. I've read that Hitler's preference for using "Aryan" over "Nordic" had to do with the fact that lots of Germans (including himself) were not "Nordic" in appearance.

    Tolkien's remarks to a German publisher who wanted proof of his "Aryan" status are quite biting:

    Dear Sirs,

    Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject — which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

    Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.

    I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and

    remain yours faithfully,

    J. R. R. Tolkien

     

    , @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Aryan is perfectly serviceable as an ur-white racial designator. Trying to sidesteppe (sorry) what we’re all talking about because of lame political taint or vague linguistic contradictions is like the attempt to switch BC to BCE. We in the iSteve comment section are not exactly the “general public” and should not be overly euphemistic because of the misconceptions or sensitivities of others.
  95. @Hapalong Cassidy
    In spite of all of that, the Gauls remained rather intact compared to some other peoples the Romans conquered. Of the five modern Romance languages, French retains by far the most Celtic influence, which tells me the Gauls were never quite as assimilated as the Iberians and Lusitanians. And far west Brittany actually kept their native Celtic language mostly intact during the Roman era, being likely only nominally under the control of Rome. So the French comic book “Asterix” does have a thread of reality to back it up.

    And far west Brittany actually kept their native Celtic language mostly intact during the Roman era, being likely only nominally under the control of Rome.

    Breton does not derive from Gaulish; it was brought to Brittany by immigrants from Britain during the Dark Ages:

    Breton was brought from Great Britain to Armorica by migrating Britons during the Early Middle Ages; it is thus an Insular Celtic language, and as such not closely related to the Continental Celtic Gaulish language which had been spoken in pre-Roman Gaul. Breton is most closely related to Cornish, both being Southwestern Brittonic languages.[6] Welsh and the extinct Cumbric are the more distantly related Western Brittonic languages.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_language

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I've been told that peddlers from Breton in France can communicate in Welsh with people in Wales.
  96. @Steve Sailer
    Of course, anime looks cheap.

    It’s effectively competing with TV, which can be unjustifiably expensive, but still look cheap, and have far inferior writing.

  97. @songbird
    You've hit on one of the main reasons "pots, not people" was just such an incredibly dumb theory: all the classical references to killing off whole tribes and cities. Are we to believe people were more civilized before writing?

    It is really just a shocking display of the reality distortion that politics has on whole fields of study, especially when you consider people were stumbling over trenches filled with arrowheads, etc.

    You’ve hit on one of the main reasons “pots, not people” was just such an incredibly dumb theory: all the classical references to killing off whole tribes and cities. Are we to believe people were more civilized before writing?

    It is really just a shocking display of the reality distortion that politics has on whole fields of study, especially when you consider people were stumbling over trenches filled with arrowheads, etc.

    Well said, songbird. I’d been meaning to make this point earlier in the day.

    You don’t need DNA to debunk it. It is and was just an objectively stupid, nonsensical position at variance with all the evidence we have.

    And I’ve got to think that while “Hitler!” is a huge part of it, it also has something to do with feminization of the field. The first few gals are motivated, intellectually curious and ok–if nothing else, constrained by the guys dominating the field. But then as leftist politics starts pushing the anti-military (i.e. anti-Western military) line and anti-nationalism and the field starts getting in more feminist gals who really don’t understand male behavior and don’t want believe in a natural divergence in sex roles … the field just collapses as a truth seeking endeavor and you get “pots not people” nonsense.

  98. @Twinkie

    The Aryans who invaded India were not blond, likely they looked Georgians, Armenians, and Northern Iranians.
     
    This is why the use of the word "Aryan" is troublesome with the general public. It is now, forever, identified with the Nordicism of the Nazis.

    Aryan simply means Iranic. Mr. Sailer actually uses the word incorrectly. The Corded Ceramic Culture people were from the steppes and contributed their genes to a number of widely divergent populations, including a hefty chunk of Europe, but also the Middle East, Central Asia, and South Asia.

    One might argue that they were pre-Aryan or proto-Aryan (or proto-Indo European), but they (or the related Yamnaya) were not "Aryan." Not in the sense of the popular usage or in the more scientific linguistic sense.

    This is why the use of the word “Aryan” is troublesome with the general public. It is now, forever, identified with the Nordicism of the Nazis.

    Which is kind of amusing. I’ve read that Hitler’s preference for using “Aryan” over “Nordic” had to do with the fact that lots of Germans (including himself) were not “Nordic” in appearance.

    Tolkien’s remarks to a German publisher who wanted proof of his “Aryan” status are quite biting:

    Dear Sirs,

    Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject — which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

    Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.

    I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and

    remain yours faithfully,

    J. R. R. Tolkien

    • Replies: @European-American
    That’s a nice letter. I looked it up to get the date: 25 July 1938

    I also found that the letter may not have been sent. He apparently drafted two, the biting version you quote, and a more politic one that sidesteps the issue. It is not known which one he sent.

    http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/03/i-have-no-ancestors-of-that-gifted.html

    To me that uncertainty and evidence of cautiousness and/or politeness make the story even better.

    (and so appropriate for these troubled times :-D)
  99. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject — which should be sufficient.

    Seems rather weasely of Tolkien. First, he writes that is grandfather “came from Germany,” not that he was German. Second, it wouldn’t follow anyways if he has been German that Tolkien’s main part of descent was purely English. Third, he writes “main part,” rather than “the remaining part.” Fourth, the stuff about his being an English subject and that the inquiry was irrelevant or impertinent comes off as a deflection. It also seems disingenuous–he is pretending that people do not find ancestry to be important.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Seems rather weasely of Tolkien.
     
    Really? He sounded angry to me....also a tad contemptuous.
  100. @Lot
    The Aryans who invaded India were not blond, likely they looked Georgians, Armenians, and Northern Iranians.

    I wonder if they wore gold bling too, over their dark-haired chests.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    I wonder if they wore gold bling too, over their dark-haired chests.
     
    If Scythians were an indication, yes, they seemed have been quite fond of golden objects.
  101. @Steve Sailer
    Is there a single _respectable_ gentile expert on Jews? John Murray Cuddihy was super bright and super influenced by New York Jewish intellectuals, but his "Ordeal of Civility" has gotten completely memoryholed.

    Superstar gentile novelists Updike and Wolfe had a little fun with Jewish characters (e.g., Bech and Kramer) but nobody in their right mind would be advised to try that today.

    Stephen Birmingham said he wasn't Jewish and he wrote a bestseller about German Jews ("Our Crowd") but that was a half century ago.

    What does “expert on Jews” mean? Trump grew up in NYC and has a lot of expensive apartment rentals in the NY metro and florida, plus a bunch of Jews in his family. I think he would count. And there are probably a lot of experts on ancient jews at bible colleges.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Is there a single commentator in the United States who is known as a regular source on domestic ethnic Jewish issues (not Israel) who isn't Jewish by ethnicity? Does the New York Times or the network news have a single gentile whom they regularly call upon for commentary on Jewish issues?
  102. @Svigor

    Lol, absurd paranoia. He makes fun of German PC.
     
    Distrusting Jewish motives on racial/ethnic issues is common sense. I don't see Jews farming out their "Jewish People's Policy Institute" research to anyone. Never even heard of an attempt to count the Jewish population of the US that wasn't carried out by Jews.

    “Never even heard of an attempt to count the Jewish population of the US that wasn’t carried out by Jews.”

    So are we wily Hebrews trying to over or understate our US population?

    “I don’t see Jews farming out their “Jewish People’s Policy Institute” research to anyone.”

    How do you know? Aware of some qualified demographers rejected from a job there due to foreskin?

    • Replies: @Anon
    Would Ashkenazi Jews be comfortable with European Gentiles' being in charge of the only DNA samples that could determine the Ashkenazi share (if any) of Ashkenazi "European" ancestry.

    Would they be comfortable with the only existing DNA samples of ancient Hebrews being entrusted to only Europeans or Palestinians to determine the relatedness (if any) of ancient Hebrews to modern day Ashkenazi Jews?

  103. @syonredux

    This is why the use of the word “Aryan” is troublesome with the general public. It is now, forever, identified with the Nordicism of the Nazis.
     
    Which is kind of amusing. I've read that Hitler's preference for using "Aryan" over "Nordic" had to do with the fact that lots of Germans (including himself) were not "Nordic" in appearance.

    Tolkien's remarks to a German publisher who wanted proof of his "Aryan" status are quite biting:

    Dear Sirs,

    Thank you for your letter. I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is Indo-Iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects. But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject — which should be sufficient. I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

    Your enquiry is doubtless made in order to comply with the laws of your own country, but that this should be held to apply to the subjects of another state would be improper, even if it had (as it has not) any bearing whatsoever on the merits of my work or its sustainability for publication, of which you appear to have satisfied yourselves without reference to my Abstammung.

    I trust you will find this reply satisfactory, and

    remain yours faithfully,

    J. R. R. Tolkien

     

    That’s a nice letter. I looked it up to get the date: 25 July 1938

    I also found that the letter may not have been sent. He apparently drafted two, the biting version you quote, and a more politic one that sidesteps the issue. It is not known which one he sent.

    http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/03/i-have-no-ancestors-of-that-gifted.html

    To me that uncertainty and evidence of cautiousness and/or politeness make the story even better.

    (and so appropriate for these troubled times :-D)

    • Replies: @European-American
    Actually, to be utterly precise, he didn’t personally send either version. He apparently gave both drafts to his publisher, and let him decide what to respond to the inquiry, so the actual response is unknown.

    Nevertheless, Tolkien’s act of keyboard (or pen) #resistance is duly noted! And that’s what truly matters :-)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Letters_of_J._R._R._Tolkien#Nazi_racial_politics
  104. @International Jew
    I wonder if they wore gold bling too, over their dark-haired chests.

    I wonder if they wore gold bling too, over their dark-haired chests.

    If Scythians were an indication, yes, they seemed have been quite fond of golden objects.

  105. @European-American
    That’s a nice letter. I looked it up to get the date: 25 July 1938

    I also found that the letter may not have been sent. He apparently drafted two, the biting version you quote, and a more politic one that sidesteps the issue. It is not known which one he sent.

    http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/03/i-have-no-ancestors-of-that-gifted.html

    To me that uncertainty and evidence of cautiousness and/or politeness make the story even better.

    (and so appropriate for these troubled times :-D)

    Actually, to be utterly precise, he didn’t personally send either version. He apparently gave both drafts to his publisher, and let him decide what to respond to the inquiry, so the actual response is unknown.

    Nevertheless, Tolkien’s act of keyboard (or pen) #resistance is duly noted! And that’s what truly matters 🙂

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Letters_of_J._R._R._Tolkien#Nazi_racial_politics

  106. @Anonymous

    But if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people. My great-great-grandfather came to England in the eighteenth century from Germany: the main part of my descent is therefore purely English, and I am an English subject — which should be sufficient.
     
    Seems rather weasely of Tolkien. First, he writes that is grandfather "came from Germany," not that he was German. Second, it wouldn't follow anyways if he has been German that Tolkien's main part of descent was purely English. Third, he writes "main part," rather than "the remaining part." Fourth, the stuff about his being an English subject and that the inquiry was irrelevant or impertinent comes off as a deflection. It also seems disingenuous--he is pretending that people do not find ancestry to be important.

    Seems rather weasely of Tolkien.

    Really? He sounded angry to me….also a tad contemptuous.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Also, that line that being an English subject "should be sufficient": What should being an "English subject" be sufficient for in this context? (Was "English subject" even a common phrase back then?)
  107. @Lot
    The Aryans who invaded India were not blond, likely they looked Georgians, Armenians, and Northern Iranians.

    This is controversial.

    The Sintashta/Andronovo archaeological sites, in central Asia, have been identified by some with the proto Indo-Iranians.
    DNA analysis of remains from Sintashta/Andronovo indicate autosomal and phenotypic similarity with modern eastern/northern Europeans.

    • Replies: @Anon
    Were Hindus happy to entrust the DNA analysis solely to Europeans?
  108. @Steve Sailer
    Is there a single _respectable_ gentile expert on Jews? John Murray Cuddihy was super bright and super influenced by New York Jewish intellectuals, but his "Ordeal of Civility" has gotten completely memoryholed.

    Superstar gentile novelists Updike and Wolfe had a little fun with Jewish characters (e.g., Bech and Kramer) but nobody in their right mind would be advised to try that today.

    Stephen Birmingham said he wasn't Jewish and he wrote a bestseller about German Jews ("Our Crowd") but that was a half century ago.

    How about the English historian Paul Johnson?

    A few years ago he wrote a great big tome on the subject.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Paul Johnson's "History of the Jews" is over 30 years old and it's pretty trepidatious for Johnson.
  109. @Anonymous
    How about the English historian Paul Johnson?

    A few years ago he wrote a great big tome on the subject.

    Paul Johnson’s “History of the Jews” is over 30 years old and it’s pretty trepidatious for Johnson.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    It was a rather fawning account.
  110. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot
    Lol, absurd paranoia. He makes fun of German PC.

    Lot wrote:

    Lol, absurd paranoia. He makes fun of German PC.

    Did you even read the article? For starters, he didn’t make fun of “German PC” in the least. He took it very seriously, and in fact responded in a way that gave PC (or whatever you want to call it) influence in his work product). Here’s Reich:

    I think that was a very sensitive issue to some of our coauthors, and one of the coauthors resigned because he felt we were returning to that idea of migration in archaeology that pots are the same as people. There have been a fair number of other coauthors from different parts of continental Europe who shared this anxiety.

    We responded to this by adding a lot of content to our papers to discuss these issues and contextualize them. Our results are actually almost diametrically opposite from what Kossina thought because these Corded Ware people come from the East, a place that Kossina would have despised as a source for them. But nevertheless it is true that there’s big population movements, and so I think what the DNA is doing is it’s forcing the hand of this discussion in archaeology, showing that in fact, major movements of people do occur.

    Here’s more Reich:

    We should think we really don’t know what we’re talking about. When you see these replacements of Neanderthals by modern humans or Europeans and Africans substantially replacing Native Americans in the last 500 years or the people who built Stonehenge, who were obviously extraordinarily sophisticated, being replaced from these people from the continent, it doesn’t say something about the innate potential of these people. But it rather says something about the different immune systems or cultural mismatch.

    And finally, the big normative/political conclusion at the end:

    Reich: I think so. I know there are extremists who are interested in genealogy and genetics. But I think those are very marginal people, and there’s, of course, a concern they may impinge on the mainstream.

    But if you actually take any serious look at this data, it just confounds every stereotype. It’s revealing that the differences among populations we see today are actually only a few thousand years old at most and that everybody is mixed. I think that if you pay any attention to this world, and have any degree of seriousness, then you can’t come out feeling affirmed in the racist view of the world. You have to be more open to immigration. You have to be more open to the mixing of different peoples. That’s your own history.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Our results are actually almost diametrically opposite from what Kossina thought because these Corded Ware people come from the East, a place that Kossina would have despised as a source for them.
     
    Conveniently, his results came out "diametrically opposite" to the Nazi account. Take that, Nazis!

    If the data supported the Nazis, how would they be reported?

    Given the political pressures evident in this piece and Reich's own apparent political agenda, it will be difficult to have confidence in his conclusions. He wouldn't be the first Harvard scientist whose political biases led him to misinterpret data. Stephen Jay Gould, anyone?

  111. @Steve Sailer
    Paul Johnson's "History of the Jews" is over 30 years old and it's pretty trepidatious for Johnson.

    It was a rather fawning account.

  112. @Anonymous
    This is controversial.

    The Sintashta/Andronovo archaeological sites, in central Asia, have been identified by some with the proto Indo-Iranians.
    DNA analysis of remains from Sintashta/Andronovo indicate autosomal and phenotypic similarity with modern eastern/northern Europeans.

    Were Hindus happy to entrust the DNA analysis solely to Europeans?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    That's a damned good question.

    Currently, the DNA blogging community is still long awaiting the release of crucial DNA samples from bronze age India, which, it is claimed, will settle the 'Aryan Invasion' question once and for all.

    The Indians promised to release them last year.........but for 'reasons unknown' they are still sitting on them.

    Draw your own conclusions.
  113. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot
    "Never even heard of an attempt to count the Jewish population of the US that wasn’t carried out by Jews."

    So are we wily Hebrews trying to over or understate our US population?

    "I don’t see Jews farming out their “Jewish People’s Policy Institute” research to anyone."

    How do you know? Aware of some qualified demographers rejected from a job there due to foreskin?

    Would Ashkenazi Jews be comfortable with European Gentiles’ being in charge of the only DNA samples that could determine the Ashkenazi share (if any) of Ashkenazi “European” ancestry.

    Would they be comfortable with the only existing DNA samples of ancient Hebrews being entrusted to only Europeans or Palestinians to determine the relatedness (if any) of ancient Hebrews to modern day Ashkenazi Jews?

  114. @syonredux

    Seems rather weasely of Tolkien.
     
    Really? He sounded angry to me....also a tad contemptuous.

    Also, that line that being an English subject “should be sufficient”: What should being an “English subject” be sufficient for in this context? (Was “English subject” even a common phrase back then?)

    • Replies: @syonredux

    Also, that line that being an English subject “should be sufficient”: What should being an “English subject” be sufficient for in this context?
     
    Reads to me as indicating that an Englishman shouldn't have to subject himself to German absurdities.You need to remember that Tolkien despised the Nazis for the way that they had tainted the "noble northern spirit";

    I have in this War a burning private grudge—which would probably make me a better soldier at 49 than I was at 22: against that ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler ... Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light.
     

    (Was “English subject” even a common phrase back then?)
     
    British subject was the more common phrase....But Tolkien was always quite proud of being an Englishman.
  115. @Lot
    What does "expert on Jews" mean? Trump grew up in NYC and has a lot of expensive apartment rentals in the NY metro and florida, plus a bunch of Jews in his family. I think he would count. And there are probably a lot of experts on ancient jews at bible colleges.

    Is there a single commentator in the United States who is known as a regular source on domestic ethnic Jewish issues (not Israel) who isn’t Jewish by ethnicity? Does the New York Times or the network news have a single gentile whom they regularly call upon for commentary on Jewish issues?

    • Replies: @Lot
    Not in that case. I don't know of any non-Irish Irish-American experts or non-Chinese Chinese experts.
  116. @syonredux

    And far west Brittany actually kept their native Celtic language mostly intact during the Roman era, being likely only nominally under the control of Rome.
     
    Breton does not derive from Gaulish; it was brought to Brittany by immigrants from Britain during the Dark Ages:

    Breton was brought from Great Britain to Armorica by migrating Britons during the Early Middle Ages; it is thus an Insular Celtic language, and as such not closely related to the Continental Celtic Gaulish language which had been spoken in pre-Roman Gaul. Breton is most closely related to Cornish, both being Southwestern Brittonic languages.[6] Welsh and the extinct Cumbric are the more distantly related Western Brittonic languages.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_language

    I’ve been told that peddlers from Breton in France can communicate in Welsh with people in Wales.

  117. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Lot wrote:

    Lol, absurd paranoia. He makes fun of German PC.

    Did you even read the article? For starters, he didn't make fun of "German PC" in the least. He took it very seriously, and in fact responded in a way that gave PC (or whatever you want to call it) influence in his work product). Here's Reich:

    I think that was a very sensitive issue to some of our coauthors, and one of the coauthors resigned because he felt we were returning to that idea of migration in archaeology that pots are the same as people. There have been a fair number of other coauthors from different parts of continental Europe who shared this anxiety.

    We responded to this by adding a lot of content to our papers to discuss these issues and contextualize them. Our results are actually almost diametrically opposite from what Kossina thought because these Corded Ware people come from the East, a place that Kossina would have despised as a source for them. But nevertheless it is true that there’s big population movements, and so I think what the DNA is doing is it’s forcing the hand of this discussion in archaeology, showing that in fact, major movements of people do occur.
     
    Here's more Reich:

    We should think we really don’t know what we’re talking about. When you see these replacements of Neanderthals by modern humans or Europeans and Africans substantially replacing Native Americans in the last 500 years or the people who built Stonehenge, who were obviously extraordinarily sophisticated, being replaced from these people from the continent, it doesn’t say something about the innate potential of these people. But it rather says something about the different immune systems or cultural mismatch.
     
    And finally, the big normative/political conclusion at the end:

    Reich: I think so. I know there are extremists who are interested in genealogy and genetics. But I think those are very marginal people, and there’s, of course, a concern they may impinge on the mainstream.

    But if you actually take any serious look at this data, it just confounds every stereotype. It’s revealing that the differences among populations we see today are actually only a few thousand years old at most and that everybody is mixed. I think that if you pay any attention to this world, and have any degree of seriousness, then you can’t come out feeling affirmed in the racist view of the world. You have to be more open to immigration. You have to be more open to the mixing of different peoples. That’s your own history.
     

    Our results are actually almost diametrically opposite from what Kossina thought because these Corded Ware people come from the East, a place that Kossina would have despised as a source for them.

    Conveniently, his results came out “diametrically opposite” to the Nazi account. Take that, Nazis!

    If the data supported the Nazis, how would they be reported?

    Given the political pressures evident in this piece and Reich’s own apparent political agenda, it will be difficult to have confidence in his conclusions. He wouldn’t be the first Harvard scientist whose political biases led him to misinterpret data. Stephen Jay Gould, anyone?

  118. @Twinkie

    The Aryans who invaded India were not blond, likely they looked Georgians, Armenians, and Northern Iranians.
     
    This is why the use of the word "Aryan" is troublesome with the general public. It is now, forever, identified with the Nordicism of the Nazis.

    Aryan simply means Iranic. Mr. Sailer actually uses the word incorrectly. The Corded Ceramic Culture people were from the steppes and contributed their genes to a number of widely divergent populations, including a hefty chunk of Europe, but also the Middle East, Central Asia, and South Asia.

    One might argue that they were pre-Aryan or proto-Aryan (or proto-Indo European), but they (or the related Yamnaya) were not "Aryan." Not in the sense of the popular usage or in the more scientific linguistic sense.

    Aryan is perfectly serviceable as an ur-white racial designator. Trying to sidesteppe (sorry) what we’re all talking about because of lame political taint or vague linguistic contradictions is like the attempt to switch BC to BCE. We in the iSteve comment section are not exactly the “general public” and should not be overly euphemistic because of the misconceptions or sensitivities of others.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Aryan is perfectly serviceable as an ur-white racial designator.
     
    It's not, because Indo-Aryans were progenitors to many non-white peoples and the Potted Ceramic Culture wasn't even Aryan - perhaps proto-Aryan at best.

    White people - Europeans - as you think of them today only emerged through a series of migrations and mutations in the last several thousand years - they are a hybrid of at least two major migrations of peoples (steppe + Anatolian farmers) and two other population groups with much smaller genetic contributions (western Eurasian hunter-gatherer and later East Asian/Siberian elements, the highest frequency of which is found among Finnic peoples).
  119. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    Were Hindus happy to entrust the DNA analysis solely to Europeans?

    That’s a damned good question.

    Currently, the DNA blogging community is still long awaiting the release of crucial DNA samples from bronze age India, which, it is claimed, will settle the ‘Aryan Invasion’ question once and for all.

    The Indians promised to release them last year………but for ‘reasons unknown’ they are still sitting on them.

    Draw your own conclusions.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Has Israel invited in Svante Paabo to determine who really lived in Palestine first?
  120. @JollyOldSoul
    "They would rather believe that different peoples stayed put in their own lands, and it was only the ideas that spread from one culture to another."

    Well it was totally easy in 3000 B.C. (woops, i mean 3000 BCE - must be careful to avoid another thought crime!) for people to exchange ideas while staying put. Back then they had Prehistoric Internet, which allowed then to transmit complex ideas while staying put. Nowadays, of course, our communications infrastructure is sorely lacking as compared to then - you know, besides books, trade, telephone, television, cell phone, text messaging, cheap and safe vacation travel, Facebutt, Snapchat, YouTube, Instagram, email, snail mail, internet, and all that - so we have to move actual physical people (permanently) - hundreds of millions of them - in order to get the benefit of exchange of ideas. There is no other way to go about it.

    And if the entire native populations of Sweden, Italy, France, Britain, Germany, Switzerland, Greece, Denmark, Poland, Hungary, Holland, Spain, and Estonia disappear due to the invasion, well that's a small price to pay for the introduction of a few new Third World recipes and a new form of rap music. Can't have anyone holding up progress on behalf of their own survival, dontcha know?

    Ho, ho, ho! Well said.

  121. @Steve Sailer
    Is there a single commentator in the United States who is known as a regular source on domestic ethnic Jewish issues (not Israel) who isn't Jewish by ethnicity? Does the New York Times or the network news have a single gentile whom they regularly call upon for commentary on Jewish issues?

    Not in that case. I don’t know of any non-Irish Irish-American experts or non-Chinese Chinese experts.

  122. @Anon87

    Astronaut Scott Kelly Now Has Different DNA Than His Identical Twin Brother After One Year In Space


    Huh? I can see things like bone density and height changing while spending time in space, but 7% of your DNA changes?? Consider me skeptical.

    I think they are just talking about methylation and epigenetics. Essentially, the same DNA, possibly some different regulation and activity. It is definitely a clickbaity headline.

    It was kind of a stupid experiment, IMO, because they were both astronauts. I get that they studied them both before and could baseline, but it still seems kind of stupid to pick perhaps the only two twins who are both astronauts.

  123. @Anonymous
    all the classical references to killing off whole tribes and cities.

    Which classical works reference this?

    It was quite a common practice to kill off all the men, after a city was taken, and settle the land with the victor’s men. Anyone who wasn’t good slave material, including the elderly were put to he sword. That wouldn’t necessarily result in genetic death, but it is quite probable that slaves had less children, so quite a diminution of genetic legacy.

    Basically, any war history references this, including the Peloponnesian War. One example would be the Siege of Melos where Athens was the aggressor. There’s another example in that war where they even killed the dogs.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    It was quite a common practice to kill off all the men, after a city was taken, and settle the land with the victor’s men.
     
    Yep. "Androcide" was par for the course back then.
    , @Twinkie

    It was quite a common practice to kill off all the men, after a city was taken, and settle the land with the victor’s men.
     
    On the other hand, Romans became the pre-eminent power in all of Europe, because it continually assimilated and absorbed defeated neighbors and states, the elites of who frequently joined the Roman upper stratum - even the senatorial class.

    Basically, any war history references this, including the Peloponnesian War. One example would be the Siege of Melos where Athens was the aggressor. There’s another example in that war where they even killed the dogs.
     
    And by the time the Romans showed up in their neighborhood, both the Spartans and Athens were but a shadow of their former selves.
  124. @Anon

    Wait a minute….
    Archaeologists don’t want to believe in massive migrations of peoples
     
    You're overthinking it. The author of the article is a jewish chap from Haarvard.

    When Jews emigrate, they leave their old pots behind and adopt local pots. Hence their attachment to pottery.
    “Pots not people” was also Harvey Weinstein’ s modus operandi when relieving his carnal urges.

  125. @songbird
    It was quite a common practice to kill off all the men, after a city was taken, and settle the land with the victor's men. Anyone who wasn't good slave material, including the elderly were put to he sword. That wouldn't necessarily result in genetic death, but it is quite probable that slaves had less children, so quite a diminution of genetic legacy.

    Basically, any war history references this, including the Peloponnesian War. One example would be the Siege of Melos where Athens was the aggressor. There's another example in that war where they even killed the dogs.

    It was quite a common practice to kill off all the men, after a city was taken, and settle the land with the victor’s men.

    Yep. “Androcide” was par for the course back then.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What are the best authorities for that proposition?
  126. @Anonymous
    Also, that line that being an English subject "should be sufficient": What should being an "English subject" be sufficient for in this context? (Was "English subject" even a common phrase back then?)

    Also, that line that being an English subject “should be sufficient”: What should being an “English subject” be sufficient for in this context?

    Reads to me as indicating that an Englishman shouldn’t have to subject himself to German absurdities.You need to remember that Tolkien despised the Nazis for the way that they had tainted the “noble northern spirit”;

    I have in this War a burning private grudge—which would probably make me a better soldier at 49 than I was at 22: against that ruddy little ignoramus Adolf Hitler … Ruining, perverting, misapplying, and making for ever accursed, that noble northern spirit, a supreme contribution to Europe, which I have ever loved, and tried to present in its true light.

    (Was “English subject” even a common phrase back then?)

    British subject was the more common phrase….But Tolkien was always quite proud of being an Englishman.

  127. @Anonymous
    That's a damned good question.

    Currently, the DNA blogging community is still long awaiting the release of crucial DNA samples from bronze age India, which, it is claimed, will settle the 'Aryan Invasion' question once and for all.

    The Indians promised to release them last year.........but for 'reasons unknown' they are still sitting on them.

    Draw your own conclusions.

    Has Israel invited in Svante Paabo to determine who really lived in Palestine first?

    • Replies: @BB753
    We already know who did: Neanderthals!
    , @Anonymous
    Interesting question.

    Basically, the earliest known Levantine inhabitants were a group known as the 'Natufians'.
    DNA analysis has revealed this people to be 'strongly basal Eurasian', ie a root population that contributed to virtually all west Eurasians.
    Interestingly, this Natufian population is strongly suspected of expanding into sub Saharan Africa, and dominating the y chromosomes of modern sub Saharan Africans.

    Modern Ashkenazi do, in fact, cluster close to the descendants of ancient long established Levantine populations such as the Druze and Samaritans, whilst having various 'European' signals.
    Modern Palestinians contain a small but very real sub Saharan signal - always the 'genetic footprint' of Peninsular Arabs - as opposed to old Levantines - wherever they roamed.
  128. @simmydimmy
    All this American ranting at the 'Marx' straw man is to be expected post Cold War I suppose. Got to have a boogie man to whip (and to hide behind as feminists do, 'We're not just hysterical women, we're Marxists!')

    But Christianity is the most powerful ideology which denies race and pretty much introduced the idea of universal human equality to the world (Buddhism a close second contender). Then Christian liberals like your Founding Fathers made equality political and presto, MLK.

    But Christianity is the most powerful ideology which denies race and pretty much introduced the idea of universal human equality to the world (Buddhism a close second contender). Then Christian liberals like your Founding Fathers made equality political and presto, MLK.

    The equality asserted in the Declaration of Independence is assuredly not an equality of ability or character. One needs only to read Jefferson’s Notes on Virginia to see that he did not believe in any such thing. It was an equality before the law. This was not a particularly Christian belief, but rather arose out of ancient English legal tradition.

    The Founding Fathers were not “Christian liberals”; some, like Jefferson, were deists, or, like Adams, were Unitarians. John Witherspoon was a Presbyterian minister, and Charles Carroll of Carrollton a Catholic, and cousin of the first Archbishop of Baltimore. They cannot easily be consigned to a sectarian pigeonhole.

    I agree that during the nineteenth and twentieth century a type of Christian liberalism or socialism arose, but in terms of the history of Christianity it is quite heterodox and unrepresentative. It is by no means a phenomenon exclusive to the United States.

    Don Colacho, as usual, gets to the heart of the matter in few words:

    “In their childish and vain attempt to attract the people, the modern clergy give socialist programs the function of being schemes for putting the Beatitudes into effect. The trick behind it consists in reducing to a collective structure external to the individual an ethical behavior that, unless it is individual and internal, is nothing. The modern clergy preach, in other words, that there is a social reform capable of wiping out the consequences of sin. From which one can deduce the pointlessness of redemption through Christ.”

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    The Founding Fathers were not “Christian liberals”; some, like Jefferson, were deists, or, like Adams, were Unitarians. John Witherspoon was a Presbyterian minister, and Charles Carroll of Carrollton a Catholic, and cousin of the first Archbishop of Baltimore. They cannot easily be consigned to a sectarian pigeonhole.
     
    I get your overall point, but this is misleading. The vast majority of the Founding Fathers were Protestant Christians in fact, and an absolute majority was Episcopalian/Anglican.

    See: http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html
  129. @syonredux

    It was quite a common practice to kill off all the men, after a city was taken, and settle the land with the victor’s men.
     
    Yep. "Androcide" was par for the course back then.

    What are the best authorities for that proposition?

    • Replies: @syonredux

    What are the best authorities for that proposition?

     

    A classic example is the siege of Melos during the Peloponnesian War

    In the summer of 416 BC, during a truce with Sparta, Athens sent an army of at least 3,400 men to conquer Melos: 1,600 heavy infantry, 300 archers, and 20 mounted archers all from Athens, plus 1,500 heavy infantry from other Delian League cities. The fleet that transported this army had 38 ships: 30 from Athens, 6 from Chios, and 2 from Lesbos. This expedition was led by the generals Cleomedes and Tisias.[18] After setting up camp on the island, the Athenians sent emissaries to negotiate with the rulers of Melos. The emissaries demanded that Melos join the Delian League and pay tribute to Athens or face destruction. The Melians rejected the ultimatum. The Athenians laid siege to the city and withdrew most of their troops from the island to fight elsewhere. The Melians made a number of sorties, at one point capturing part of the Athenians' lines, but failed to break the siege. Athens sent reinforcements under the command of Philocrates. The Athenians also had help from traitors within Melos.[19] Melos surrendered in the winter of 416 or 415 BC.[20]
     

    The Athenians executed the adult men[21] and sold the women and children into slavery. They then settled 500 of their own colonists on the island

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Melos


    Of course, in that instance, only the adult males were killed.
  130. @Anonymous
    What are the best authorities for that proposition?

    What are the best authorities for that proposition?

    A classic example is the siege of Melos during the Peloponnesian War

    In the summer of 416 BC, during a truce with Sparta, Athens sent an army of at least 3,400 men to conquer Melos: 1,600 heavy infantry, 300 archers, and 20 mounted archers all from Athens, plus 1,500 heavy infantry from other Delian League cities. The fleet that transported this army had 38 ships: 30 from Athens, 6 from Chios, and 2 from Lesbos. This expedition was led by the generals Cleomedes and Tisias.[18] After setting up camp on the island, the Athenians sent emissaries to negotiate with the rulers of Melos. The emissaries demanded that Melos join the Delian League and pay tribute to Athens or face destruction. The Melians rejected the ultimatum. The Athenians laid siege to the city and withdrew most of their troops from the island to fight elsewhere. The Melians made a number of sorties, at one point capturing part of the Athenians’ lines, but failed to break the siege. Athens sent reinforcements under the command of Philocrates. The Athenians also had help from traitors within Melos.[19] Melos surrendered in the winter of 416 or 415 BC.[20]

    The Athenians executed the adult men[21] and sold the women and children into slavery. They then settled 500 of their own colonists on the island

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Melos

    Of course, in that instance, only the adult males were killed.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Thank you
  131. A major reason anime is so big in Japan is because they found ways to do it cheaper than live action, especially regarding locations and special effects.

    I think the reason is that Japanese audiences tolerate those methods (they’re called “limited animation” or something like that, IIRC). I would say they also seem to like animation a lot more than western audiences do, but since they’re as nationalist in this regard as any other (i.e., they don’t consume non-Japanese animation, AFAIK), it’s hard to say.

    It’s effectively competing with TV, which can be unjustifiably expensive, but still look cheap, and have far inferior writing.

    The writing consistently repels me, too. There’s something in the storytelling that just doesn’t click. Like aliens write it.

    Anime would be a lot more interesting if east Asians were more creative. Then the output would be less derivative and you’d see more variety. Ten thousand tales of uniformed high school students, I can do without.

    So are we wily Hebrews trying to over or understate our US population?

    How the Hell should I know, sans audits? I certainly wouldn’t put it past them. There’s a strong motive there on the all-important “fighting antisemitism” front, if the frequency of the “tiny minority” defense is any guide.

    “I don’t see Jews farming out their “Jewish People’s Policy Institute” research to anyone.”

    How do you know? Aware of some qualified demographers rejected from a job there due to foreskin?

    I know because I don’t see it. Duh.

  132. Manga is just as bad. Ten zillion copies printed, and I find almost all of it to be completely uninteresting in every way. There are only a handful of exceptions that I’ve seen (e.g., Akira manga is as far above most manga as the film is above most anime.). In the cases of both manga and anime, the sheer amount of output is both strength and weakness; Japanese churn out tons and tons of cheap manga that only Japanese find interesting enough to read.

  133. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    I think we have to give Reich some slack here. He has a book coming out at the end of the month and I think he’s going to get some backlash from the SJWs for this – “His book gives the lie to the orthodoxy that there are no meaningful biological differences among human populations…”(Amazon blurb).

    Here’s a paragraph from a Nature review about his book –

    “Reich also reflects on how his work can be misinterpreted by the public and those outside the field, in a heartfelt section that I can sympathize with. As soon as some genetic discoveries are published, they can become freighted with prejudices and polarized interpretations. We all belong to one species and we are all related. Yet when genetic differences between populations, for instance, are revealed, the media and interest groups can oversimplify and distort. Some pick and choose results to justify personal, and sadly often political or racist, beliefs. Others sweep the differences under the carpet. Yet, as Reich argues, we do need a non-loaded way to talk about genetic diversity and similarities in populations. This book goes some way to starting that conversation.”

    Remember, Reich is at Harvard which has been roiled in the past about racial and sexual issues, Larry Summers being the biggest event in 2005 and the climate has only gotten worse. Reich is an excellent researcher who is dedicated to the facts that DNA research produces and I think he’s trying to move science’s Overton window. I don’t know how much of a SJW he really is, perhaps some of his rhetoric is, as another commenter stated, just squid ink. Let’s hope he doesn’t get the Charles Murray/Larry Summers treatment.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Reich is an excellent researcher who is dedicated to the facts that DNA research produces and I think he’s trying to move science’s Overton window.

    We don't know that he will let the facts lead him wherever they go. That's the problem. His pronouncements indicate otherwise. He didn't need to tie this subject to a pitch for more immigration. Not a good sign.
  134. @densa
    The interview concludes with

    It's revealing that the differences among populations we see today are actually only a few thousand years old at most and that everybody is mixed. I think that if you pay any attention to this world, and have any degree of seriousness, then you can’t come out feeling affirmed in the racist view of the world. You have to be more open to immigration. You have to be more open to the mixing of different peoples. That’s your own history.
     
    This scientist is a SJW.

    One of the irritations about how the SJW Industry speaks for people such as myself is that I am perfectly willing to accept that America is multiracial. What I don't accept is destroying our culture for its supremacy. This isn't hate or ignorance. It's an attachment to our last couple hundred years that I'm not willing to exchange for the supposed benevolence of the last couple thousand.

    A country with white settlement and culture that accepts minorities, or a dispossessed white culture overlorded by obnoxious SJWs? He says, "I think that if you pay any attention to this world, and have any degree of seriousness, then you can't come out feeling affirmed in the racist view of the world." I'd say that if you pay attention and are serious, you value the good our culture has provided and seek to preserve it for your offspring.

    Here is an interesting editorial the same David Reich wrote as a high schooler:

    https://www.nytimes.com/1991/06/03/opinion/voices-of-the-new-generation-the-sat-goes-pc.html

  135. @syonredux

    What are the best authorities for that proposition?

     

    A classic example is the siege of Melos during the Peloponnesian War

    In the summer of 416 BC, during a truce with Sparta, Athens sent an army of at least 3,400 men to conquer Melos: 1,600 heavy infantry, 300 archers, and 20 mounted archers all from Athens, plus 1,500 heavy infantry from other Delian League cities. The fleet that transported this army had 38 ships: 30 from Athens, 6 from Chios, and 2 from Lesbos. This expedition was led by the generals Cleomedes and Tisias.[18] After setting up camp on the island, the Athenians sent emissaries to negotiate with the rulers of Melos. The emissaries demanded that Melos join the Delian League and pay tribute to Athens or face destruction. The Melians rejected the ultimatum. The Athenians laid siege to the city and withdrew most of their troops from the island to fight elsewhere. The Melians made a number of sorties, at one point capturing part of the Athenians' lines, but failed to break the siege. Athens sent reinforcements under the command of Philocrates. The Athenians also had help from traitors within Melos.[19] Melos surrendered in the winter of 416 or 415 BC.[20]
     

    The Athenians executed the adult men[21] and sold the women and children into slavery. They then settled 500 of their own colonists on the island

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Melos


    Of course, in that instance, only the adult males were killed.

    Thank you

  136. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon
    I think we have to give Reich some slack here. He has a book coming out at the end of the month and I think he's going to get some backlash from the SJWs for this - "His book gives the lie to the orthodoxy that there are no meaningful biological differences among human populations..."(Amazon blurb).

    Here's a paragraph from a Nature review about his book -

    "Reich also reflects on how his work can be misinterpreted by the public and those outside the field, in a heartfelt section that I can sympathize with. As soon as some genetic discoveries are published, they can become freighted with prejudices and polarized interpretations. We all belong to one species and we are all related. Yet when genetic differences between populations, for instance, are revealed, the media and interest groups can oversimplify and distort. Some pick and choose results to justify personal, and sadly often political or racist, beliefs. Others sweep the differences under the carpet. Yet, as Reich argues, we do need a non-loaded way to talk about genetic diversity and similarities in populations. This book goes some way to starting that conversation."

    Remember, Reich is at Harvard which has been roiled in the past about racial and sexual issues, Larry Summers being the biggest event in 2005 and the climate has only gotten worse. Reich is an excellent researcher who is dedicated to the facts that DNA research produces and I think he's trying to move science's Overton window. I don't know how much of a SJW he really is, perhaps some of his rhetoric is, as another commenter stated, just squid ink. Let's hope he doesn't get the Charles Murray/Larry Summers treatment.

    Reich is an excellent researcher who is dedicated to the facts that DNA research produces and I think he’s trying to move science’s Overton window.

    We don’t know that he will let the facts lead him wherever they go. That’s the problem. His pronouncements indicate otherwise. He didn’t need to tie this subject to a pitch for more immigration. Not a good sign.

  137. @Steve Sailer
    Has Israel invited in Svante Paabo to determine who really lived in Palestine first?

    We already know who did: Neanderthals!

  138. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Has Israel invited in Svante Paabo to determine who really lived in Palestine first?

    Interesting question.

    Basically, the earliest known Levantine inhabitants were a group known as the ‘Natufians’.
    DNA analysis has revealed this people to be ‘strongly basal Eurasian’, ie a root population that contributed to virtually all west Eurasians.
    Interestingly, this Natufian population is strongly suspected of expanding into sub Saharan Africa, and dominating the y chromosomes of modern sub Saharan Africans.

    Modern Ashkenazi do, in fact, cluster close to the descendants of ancient long established Levantine populations such as the Druze and Samaritans, whilst having various ‘European’ signals.
    Modern Palestinians contain a small but very real sub Saharan signal – always the ‘genetic footprint’ of Peninsular Arabs – as opposed to old Levantines – wherever they roamed.

  139. @Lot
    A culture can be monogamous and make the captured females concubines and slaves.

    Well, kinda. If men are monogamous, it implies a certain authority in the women they wife, such that the wives may not tolerate concubines about the household. The wife may turn a blind eye to unexplained pregnancies among slave women, so long as the progeny don’t dilute the inheritance and authority of the wife’s own offspring. (There is a reason that the status of “wife” is sought after in traditional culture.) Nevertheless, a lot of oat-sowing by the men would result in a large underclass of bastards raised by single mothers, which is always a recipe for collapse.

  140. @Anon

    Well, we find the males being slaughtered. The females were taken (“inmarried”, as the professor rather delicately puts it) by the steppe nomads.
     
    Can you provide us with a citation?

    All of history until a few hundred years ago when Christianity started sinking in in Europe.

  141. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Aryan is perfectly serviceable as an ur-white racial designator. Trying to sidesteppe (sorry) what we’re all talking about because of lame political taint or vague linguistic contradictions is like the attempt to switch BC to BCE. We in the iSteve comment section are not exactly the “general public” and should not be overly euphemistic because of the misconceptions or sensitivities of others.

    Aryan is perfectly serviceable as an ur-white racial designator.

    It’s not, because Indo-Aryans were progenitors to many non-white peoples and the Potted Ceramic Culture wasn’t even Aryan – perhaps proto-Aryan at best.

    White people – Europeans – as you think of them today only emerged through a series of migrations and mutations in the last several thousand years – they are a hybrid of at least two major migrations of peoples (steppe + Anatolian farmers) and two other population groups with much smaller genetic contributions (western Eurasian hunter-gatherer and later East Asian/Siberian elements, the highest frequency of which is found among Finnic peoples).

  142. @songbird
    It was quite a common practice to kill off all the men, after a city was taken, and settle the land with the victor's men. Anyone who wasn't good slave material, including the elderly were put to he sword. That wouldn't necessarily result in genetic death, but it is quite probable that slaves had less children, so quite a diminution of genetic legacy.

    Basically, any war history references this, including the Peloponnesian War. One example would be the Siege of Melos where Athens was the aggressor. There's another example in that war where they even killed the dogs.

    It was quite a common practice to kill off all the men, after a city was taken, and settle the land with the victor’s men.

    On the other hand, Romans became the pre-eminent power in all of Europe, because it continually assimilated and absorbed defeated neighbors and states, the elites of who frequently joined the Roman upper stratum – even the senatorial class.

    Basically, any war history references this, including the Peloponnesian War. One example would be the Siege of Melos where Athens was the aggressor. There’s another example in that war where they even killed the dogs.

    And by the time the Romans showed up in their neighborhood, both the Spartans and Athens were but a shadow of their former selves.

  143. @Crawfurdmuir

    But Christianity is the most powerful ideology which denies race and pretty much introduced the idea of universal human equality to the world (Buddhism a close second contender). Then Christian liberals like your Founding Fathers made equality political and presto, MLK.
     
    The equality asserted in the Declaration of Independence is assuredly not an equality of ability or character. One needs only to read Jefferson's Notes on Virginia to see that he did not believe in any such thing. It was an equality before the law. This was not a particularly Christian belief, but rather arose out of ancient English legal tradition.

    The Founding Fathers were not "Christian liberals"; some, like Jefferson, were deists, or, like Adams, were Unitarians. John Witherspoon was a Presbyterian minister, and Charles Carroll of Carrollton a Catholic, and cousin of the first Archbishop of Baltimore. They cannot easily be consigned to a sectarian pigeonhole.

    I agree that during the nineteenth and twentieth century a type of Christian liberalism or socialism arose, but in terms of the history of Christianity it is quite heterodox and unrepresentative. It is by no means a phenomenon exclusive to the United States.

    Don Colacho, as usual, gets to the heart of the matter in few words:

    "In their childish and vain attempt to attract the people, the modern clergy give socialist programs the function of being schemes for putting the Beatitudes into effect. The trick behind it consists in reducing to a collective structure external to the individual an ethical behavior that, unless it is individual and internal, is nothing. The modern clergy preach, in other words, that there is a social reform capable of wiping out the consequences of sin. From which one can deduce the pointlessness of redemption through Christ."

    The Founding Fathers were not “Christian liberals”; some, like Jefferson, were deists, or, like Adams, were Unitarians. John Witherspoon was a Presbyterian minister, and Charles Carroll of Carrollton a Catholic, and cousin of the first Archbishop of Baltimore. They cannot easily be consigned to a sectarian pigeonhole.

    I get your overall point, but this is misleading. The vast majority of the Founding Fathers were Protestant Christians in fact, and an absolute majority was Episcopalian/Anglican.

    See: http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS