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Did Tinder Play a Role in the Liberal Female Psychological Meltdown That Began Around 2013?
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Tinder is a popular smartphone dating app for heterosexuals modeled upon the earlier gay male app Grindr. The notion that imposing a male homosexual approach upon how heterosexuals meet the opposite sex could be bad for the happiness of heterosexuals is of course inconceivable!

(But it also sounds pretty plausible.)

 
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  1. Yes, I am sure it helped. But so did being unfriended on FB, blocked on Twitter, having your texts ignored, Instagram pictures mocked, etc.

    Social media and the instant feedback people get from looking at it on their phones 24/7 leave little room for a bit of healthy self-deception.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  2. tin·der
    ˈtindər/
    noun
    dry, flammable material, such as wood or paper, used for lighting a fire.

    Maybe it did.

  3. Maciano says:

    Steve,

    I think this is a bit weird coming from you.

    Beauty or attractiveness is as cold a fact as intelligence — and it matters to having been born with or without it. Something like Tinder was inevitable, emergent tech. This has nothing with dysfunctional gay culture spillover effects.

    The world is just getting more objectively measurable through tech, sometimes that’s in your advantage, sometimes not.

  4. The notion that imposing a male homosexual approach upon how heterosexuals meet the opposite sex could be bad for the happiness of heterosexuals is of course inconceivable!

    Conception is not the point.

  5. Okay, Conception is the Point… in Santa Barbara County.

  6. Carol says:

    Except old married women like Bissell (and me) don’t need to use the app. But see how she goes off anyway, or says she did.

    Why? Life is good…

  7. J.Ross says: • Website

    There’s a chart for OkCupid results, which I expect would match Tinder data. The male ranking of females is pretty even, with slightly fewer women in the top and bottom ranks, and slightly more in the middle. The ranking of males by females has no one in the top rank, very few in the second best rank, and an increasing number for each one as you go lower. It’s pretty much hypogamy in one picture.

    I can’t find that arrangement so here is hypogamy in two pictures:

  8. Pat Boyle says:

    It may be a reaction to modern college, It seems obvious that the modern American University is a defunct institution. I think my generation may be the last one to have a relatively normal school experience before it all turned to excrement.

    It should be obvious to everyone that the idea of a guy standing in front of a classroom lecturing makes very little sense anymore. More does the idea that a college degree is the passport to a good job and a middle class life style.

    College admissions are corrupt and so are college grades. It’s obvious if you want to produce citizens who know American History you should have a uniform national American History test. Who cares how you learn the history. You could watch a web based series of videos. You could read some books. Or you could go to a lecture hall at a traditional university. The manner of acquiring the knowledge hardly matters. We should be focusing on output measures not input measures.

    But traditional schools are corrupt. There are too many political crazies who would try to torque the curricula around so that the test supports some fringe interpretation. I lectured in standard classrooms in dozens of subjects for about forty years. Most of the time in most of the subjects I was very good but that was the past – a past I can barely imagine given today’s possibilities.

    The debate today should be – Should we burn Harvard down or Should we bomb it?

  9. Anonymous[278] • Disclaimer says:

    Is Tinder actually a major factor on (elite, residential) college campuses? The places where there are dorms and frat parties? I thought it was more relevant to the post-college, never-in-college, and horny single mom sets.

    Also even if so it would only apply to the college emotional crack-up, and not the rest of the emotional crack up which extends to the old and married like Victoria Bissel whatsherface.

  10. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Maciano

    This has nothing with dysfunctional gay culture spillover effects.

    Rather than being caused by gay culture, it’s probably more accurate to say that both Grindr and Tinder, along with other things like pornography, are part of the broader sterile, asexual culture which simulates genuine sexuality.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  11. Let me say that I have never been on Tinder and never will be on Tinder, but I have read a bit about it.

    Tinder is a dating app that allows pretty much any woman over the qualifying age to summon up a man for casual or anonymous sex at whim. No doubt there are Tinderites who have started fires on the app that continued to burn and have married or become mates, but they are probably a tiny minority.

    Men so outnumber women on the site that it is one-way traffic. The only men who are successful at getting casual sex from women are the ones who look very good in their online photographs. To some extent it is possible to game the system a bit by having professional photographs taken, or possibly using some kind of consulting assistance to build a good Facebook profile, which is what underlies a Tinder profile.

    Now, exactly what effect Tinder has on men and women psychologically is a bit difficult to predict, but it does make it easier to commodify potential sexual partners, cheat on sexual partners, and find sexual partners close at hand wherever you go. Apparently Olympic athletes find Tinder really useful and the Games only really get going after the TV viewers have gone to bed.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  12. Jason y says:
    @Maciano

    Right, that’s part of the problem: it used to be people could lie to themselves about their sexual market value. That’s more difficult when you can’t help but notice that the cute girls you’re swiping right on aren’t swiping back. It can undermine the basis of many men and women’s self-esteem to discover they aren’t as attractive as they thought they were.

    Additionally, the pervasiveness of Tinder altered the shared expectations of courtship and dating and made it more difficult for those who need emotional validation to get it.

    My tweet was specifically about the increase in mental health issues, and I can definitely see the new dynamics pushing the more vulnerable and anxious over the edge.

  13. ribbit says:

    Sure didn’t help me.

    Course, I’m male and read iSteve, so maybe not the most pertinent observation, but there ya go.

  14. anon[222] • Disclaimer says:

    Tinder? Boring as it sounds as an explanation, the quality and quantity of free porn. I could be more specific, but won’t. All the obvious problems amped up.

    • Replies: @Song For the Deaf
  15. Dumbo says:
    @Maciano

    But we don’t need tech to measure beauty. I think the point is that while gays always dated based almost exclusively on – I won’t say beauty, but sexual attraction (and it makes sense, since they care mostly about sex and mainly short-term sex) heterosexual couples used to consider also factors other than looks (especially when searching for long-term relationships). So Tinder is an app that is only about pictures and focuses on short-term superficial relationships based mostly on looks and sex. Like, you know, gay ones.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
  16. Anonymous[198] • Disclaimer says:

    I doubt that Tinder has had more pronounced negative mental health effects on women than, say, Facebook, Instagram or Twitter.

    If anything, heterosexuals can adapt apps made for homosexuals to their own behaviours, i.e. more romance and less sex. Grindr was made so that gay men could bypass all the boring procedures because 2x male libido isn’t a recipe for patience. I don’t know, however, many women who want to get down and dirty every single day, so dating apps like Tinder can’t have made women more promiscuous than they already would have been: even the women who are less fortunate on the looks department get way more attention than a large percentage of men.

    There’s a statistical analysis on mobile dating apps here: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1607/1607.03320.pdf

    The app is not named in the paper, but you can safely assume it’s Tinder.

    • Agree: ben tillman
  17. notanon says:

    one theory (mine) is that when you’ve had a middle class economy within living memory and that middle class is shrinking (cos banking mafia) you end up with 80% of women chasing the shrinking percentage of men who can still provide that kind of “safe-school” middle class life

    and this leads to the phenomena of incels (male) and the thot-roastie pipeline (female).

    what options do the bottom 20% of females have who know they can’t compete against a thot-roastie let alone a Stacey cos tinder tol them so?

    rage against the chads.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    , @Anoni
  18. Rosie says:
    @J.Ross

    The ranking of males by females has no one in the top rank, very few in the second best rank, and an increasing number for each one as you go lower. It’s pretty much hypogamy in one picture.

    Hypogamy? What is this new devilry?

    Anyway…

  19. Rosie says:
    @Pat Boyle

    The debate today should be – Should we burn Harvard down or Should we bomb it?

    It just needs a bit of freshening up.

    The extroverted among us will always value the traditional university education, at least until AI is perfected, which hopefully will be never.

    • LOL: Anonym
  20. Off topic but on theme:

    https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/marcos-breton/article105429431.html

    “Is this sex offender really suing his victim because she called him a rapist on Facebook?”

    This is seemingly great isteve stuff. Ambiguous sexual encounter. Both parties inconsistent with details. Minority-feminist intersectionalism. Civil lawsuits. University PC cowardace.

    In other words, who we are.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    , @Autochthon
  21. Jimi says:

    Tindr has 2 important modifications from Grindr to appeal to females:

    (1) You can only initiate chats if both people match each other. This way a single female won’t be bombarded by messages from lots of men, most of whom she has no interest in.

    (2) Occupation and college information is listed. Again to cater women who are attracted to more than just physical looks.

  22. BenKenobi says:

    After my divorce I spent about 2 years single in the core of Vancouver.

    Tinder is where the 20-something thots are.

    Bumble is where the 30-to-40-something women are.

    They’re both a target rich environment. The downfall of civilization has its perks!

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Lurker
  23. J.Ross says: • Website
    @AndrewR

    I knew I screwed that up. Hypogamy would be like, what, what Drew Barrymore had?

    • LOL: AndrewR
  24. I think we’re on to something here.

    The one way that a woman can instantly boost her desirability to men is to telegraph availability. One can imagine that average females are marketing themselves with hints as to their availability and willingness to grant a quicker, um, path to “relief” as a means of competing with better looking women, and this leads to some awkwardness on dates, and perhaps some post hoc regrets about hookups (especially when they don’t lead to any real possibility of a relationship). Enter #MeToo, which imports the nebulous rules and definitions of campus rape hysteria into the broader culture, and is structured to apply these rules retroactively by rooting out past perpetrators.

    That’s an inherently unstable mix of social trends. The outstanding question is whether the left can successfully harness the explosive energy from the clash of two of its monsters let loose on the culture.

    • Agree: Rosie, NickG
  25. Anonymous[393] • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross

    Hypogamy would be trying to marry down… I wonder if there are examples for that.

    That was a few years ago (OkCupid bosses promoting their book) but quite interesting. They rolled it out in that clickbaity “7 crazy things we learned” style, one of which plainly admitted what the Heartiste school preaches: women are helplessly handicapped as regards the standard of a “good enough”-looking man. To dispense with the excuse that a dating site’s sample quality already skews leftward, your chart there shows the complementary statistic (of females’ looks restricted to hetero guys’ ratings) following norm dist.

    The OkCupiders were pretty frank that not disappointing the distaff users was a mathematical impossibility. Then the argument about whom/what to blame bifurcated into “distorted media imagery/Photoshop” vs. chicks’ natural tendency to esteem themselves princesses subject to unrelenting sexual assault by frogs. In light of 2018, do we really need to wait another half-decade to call that one?

  26. Anon[323] • Disclaimer says:

    From kindergarten to tindergarten.

    Tinderbox.

  27. @Pat Boyle

    Colleges are institutions of significant expense. Such institutions always become corrupt. If you want to attack their corruption then generate political will (in the U.S. in 2018, public shaming) to do so.

  28. A few years ago when Tinder came out, I decided I would make it “straight Grindr.” I live in SF btw, so I’m familiar with Grindr. The problem is that women aree not the same as gay men. When you use an app to hook up with women and then blow them off after you have gotten what you wanted, straight women tend not to like that. There can never be a straight equivalent to Grindr, because straight women are not gay men.

    • Replies: @Altai
    , @Anonymous
  29. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Maciano

    Steve’s right that Tinder basically copied Grindr, which is a gay app, but one could argue the common thread is male culture rather than gay culture. The previous generation of online dating apps and sites, such as Match (which bought Tinder) had a lot of text in addition to pictures; Grindr apparently cut out most of that to focus on images, because men focus more on appearance.

    So, if you’re rejected on Tinder or Grindr, it’s almost certainly a rejection of your appearance.

    On the other hand, judging by the number of men this fairly average looking woman attracted on Tinder, the average woman probably gets plenty of male attention on the app. If anything, it should be men having meltdowns.

    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
  30. @Pat Boyle

    I was sort of thinking along these lines the other day.

    If there is a preeminent scholar of X who teaches classes at Oxford or Harvard, is there a good reason that his lectures shouldn’t be made available more broadly – even to students enrolled at other Universities? Is there a reason to restrict his reach, to limit the number of students who hear his brilliance? And is there a reason a superstar scholar shouldn’t receive the pecuniary benefits of being the leading light in his field who teaches hundreds of thousands of students (given modern technology) rather than the few enrolled in the University at which he is resident? I’m sure the Universities would attempt some justification for why knowledge shouldn’t be disseminated as broadly as possibly, but it’s unlikely to be persuasive.

  31. @Dumbo

    Like, you know, gay ones.

    I thought gays and royals were the only people who wanted to get married these days.

  32. Anonymous[393] • Disclaimer says:

    If you doubt the post title’s thesis, just try to picture the storylines from contemporary rom-coms or “Sex & the City,” at the apogee of gyno-porn in the late 90s, shifted some years forward into Tinder or even Craigslist-era norms.

    And they say John Hughes’s movies couldn’t be released today– Katherine Heigl’s whole career couldn’t be released today!

  33. @Dave Pinsen

    I think you have some good points but male attention isn’t fungible.

    A man will show interest in every profile from a Victoria’s Secret Angel down to a plump hausfrau type and everyone in between – his intentions with each woman vary widely however. You’re probably far more willing to put up with a load of grief and flaking from the Victoria’s Secret Angel, whereas if you don’t get a clear, easy path to sex with the plump hausfrau you’re going to move on and spend your time on another.

    I think my point here is that the plump hausfrau is going to develop some negative opinions about men generally after she receives plenty of attention but little kindness in the new Tindr universe. She’s either going to have to be a lot easier to compete (and experience the psychological damage) or come to the realization that she can’t compete. In either case, she’s ripe for expressing her psychological angst in political terms.

  34. Anon[552] • Disclaimer says:

    I think that there may be something to this. I remember this intensely sad, to me, column from the New York Times Modern Love column from 2015.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/26/style/modern-love-wanting-monogamy-as-1946-men-await-your-swipe.html

    A college senior coed meets a guy vie Bumble (a women-make-the-first-move version of Tinder). The guy, also a college senior, gets her slotted into a regular Monday night sleepover routine. Naturally, she started to want more. He balked. She realized that he had a harem of girls.

    Then I gave in and dropped those hints, which he didn’t get. So I said it flat out: “I like you.”

    Within an hour of texting him my confession, my phone lit up with Michael’s reply: “I like you too.”

    Then another text appeared: “It’s just that I’m apprehensive about the commitment.”

    When I clarified that I didn’t expect a long-term commitment, with our coming graduation, he expressed his real concern: “Monogamy.”

    Dating apps are optimized for letting guys sleep with a lot of girls and move on, but women may more often want to settle in with one guy. And, even though they may not know it, guys are also harmed by their sexual freedom.

    I had known there were other girls. Once, while lying in bed with my head against his shoulder, he squinted at his phone and I caught a glimpse of the name at the top of a text message: Sophie.

    I tried to shrug it off. So I was Mondays, and I guessed these girls were maybe Thursdays, Wednesdays or Saturdays. I figured they, like me, were just players of the dating app game, where Michael undoubtedly pressed the proverbial “play again?” button after each successful connection. I thought I could deal with that.

    But then Michael started feeling less like a game to me. When he sat across from me, I stopped seeing his face as a “yes” or “no” to swipe on. With the months we had left, I wanted to get to know him, the actual Michael, not the Michael that appeared before me like a selection in an online catalog. I wanted to leave the game behind and develop something special, if only for a short time.

    Yet Michael hesitated.

    It struck me that the “fling” was dead. Now we have flings, plural, because that’s what dating apps encourage.

    The woman who wrote this seems really un-self aware how used she was.

    In the past people met their life mates in high school, or at college, or at church, or via family friends, or at work. You might find your life mate in the form of a person at college or work who is in what is now considered a relative position of power.

    Nowadays you are discouraged from marrying after high school, college is hookups, in person or via Tinder, you get in trouble if you make a pass at a coworker or customer, or at a professor or student. Even the bar scene, never a great way to meet people, doesn’t work that well for people who have not had a lot of face-to-face, start-of-the-relationship, non-internet-mediated romantic interaction with the opposite sex. So you slide into a career or job and there is no way to find your match. The world feels like crap and you get depressed and freak out as you get older and older.

    It’s worth noting, also, that apparently on average sex is down, and there is something similar to Charles Murray’s cognitive elite happening with sex: Just as the top SAT scorers end up in New York and leave the losers behind, the male winners on dating apps (looks and outgoingness) end up screwing dozens of girls and the losers are left with, what, trying to timidly make a connection with women who feel used and are mentally unstable because of the experience? I don’t know …

    It’s interesting to ask older people in long, happy marriages how they met. It often turns out to be in a way that is now politically incorrect. For instance, an older progressive Canadian guy in tech who I know met his wife at work, when she worked for him. They are happily married with two children. He does seem to recognize the irony of the situation. Also, when pressed, women will admit that they did not accept their future husband’s first advance. There will be cute family stories about how the guy repeatedly pressed his future wife until she relented. This seems to be the reality of many successful relationships. Today you’re fired or #metoo’d or hauled into campus Title IX proceedings if you don’t take No for No. In the past, with more face-to-face contact, young men and women just knew how to deal with interpersonal situations tactfully. It’s a skill, reading the other person, letting the other person down easily Kids don’t have it as much these days. It’s inborn to an extent, but needs development by practice.

  35. @MikeatMikedotMike

    Yes, well from reading the article it doesn’t seem like he was actually convicted of rape.

  36. Jimbo says:
    @Pat Boyle

    Nuke it from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.

  37. Steve, honestly you are trying too hard here.

    Tap your inner pscyhoanalyst. What is anxiety? Anxiety is cognitive dissonance. What is cognitive dissonance? Cognitive dissonance is when two or more compartmentalized regions of the psyche have mis-aligned knowledge inventory and executive agency.

    So – just go “triune brain” here with me for a minute because it brings these concepts down to earth. There is: conscious, subconscious, unconscious. Lets call “conscious”, “people brain”, and let’s call unconscious “lizard brain”.

    If people brain has entered into a vicious cycle of :

    I cannot align with men in general, I have to align with women, I cannot align with a church, I cannot align with a neighborhood/ethnicity, I cannot align with the right because the right=altright/nazi, only options are: align with women, no matter how weak and unstable that is, and align with the “good” political people even though something about them doesn’t sit right with me but I didn’t read Hobbes and I don’t know anything about the English Civil War or the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution so I can’t quite articulate what it is that’s wrong with the “good” political people so … against all my base instincts I am going to align with women, align with weak men who never challenge women (because: women), and I’m going to align with people who scare me and I’m going to shout at the top of my lungs that people who scare me are absolutely morally righteous.

    … well first thing that happens – is that’s exactly what they’ll do, because people brain has the agency and people brain is in charge.

    Meanwhile, lizard brain, observing all of this, can only feel about it and transmit feelings and nightmares to people brain, but if its feelings and nightmares could be transformed into words they’d go something like this …

    You need to select strong men. Strong men stand up to others. Strong men stand up to women. Strong men stand up to you. Test your men. AH! Look – that man gave in! Do it again. Ah! Up the stakes, do it again. Ah! How can anyone be so milquetoast? Gawd you mammals are weak. Have these men no dignity?
    Here, test him again … test him in a way that robs him of all dignity if he doesn’t stand up to you.
    Ah!
    You married that? WTH is wrong with you?
    Things aren’t safe. The jungle is murmuring – it’s what you call “politics”. You need to find a group where there is safety in numbers.
    Wait … this group you chose is all women. That’s better than no group, but I’ve been around for 300 million years and all-women-groups aren’t usually all-women for long if they don’t choose their men first. Here, let’s test some men so we can choose them before they kill off good men we fail to partner with and with no men left for us to choose, they “choose” us.
    Ah … get out of this group so you can test some men!
    Ah … ok, what’s this group called, the Committee of College Professors so-and-so? You mammals!
    Ok … test the men in this group.
    Ah! No dignity again.
    Find another group.
    Ah! This is all women again.
    Find another man.
    Ah! Why do you keep picking these weaklings! What is wrong with you mammalian sister?!

    The result of this internal conflict of course boils over and we generally call the strange manifestations of it, “neurosis”.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  38. I’ve often thought that the lonely guys on /pol and Heartiste and the pink hairs who emotionally menstruate all over the rest of us, well, in previous generations most of the people in those two groups would be married to each other. I’m not saying that to be dismissive (at least not of the former), it just is what it is. Lots of unattractive people on both sides being weeded out and their politics are the inevitable expression of their anxiety about it.

    I used to wonder what the cause of their disaggregation was but Tinder seems as good an explanation as any.

  39. @J.Ross

    According to the Greater Male Variability Hypothesis, there should be disproportionately more males at both ends of the physical attractiveness spectrum.

    So it’s very odd that females would not find any males to be maximally attractive.

    Perhaps women are holding their highest ranking in reserve until they can figure out if the man is both rich and handsome.

  40. @J.Ross

    What do the bars represent tho? I mean, on the graph where women rate men, does that mean that the three bars in the left are all the men considered unattractive or just the two furthest to the left?

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  41. Anonymous[958] • Disclaimer says:

    If anything Tinder probably inflates the average female user’s ego substantially; even a fairly homely girl can get plenty of matches on the general principle that a lot of men will try to fuck anything that walks. Of course it’s a shallow sort of approval and can leave a lot of people embittered, but at least in my experience it’s the women more than the men who tend to use the site to gratify their own egos at the expense of others.

    No, I think it is the Facebook/Instagram/Snapchat class of site that is causing so much angst. Consider how much envy the average woman feels at baseline towards even her closest friends; now imagine being bombarded on a daily basis with an overly glamorized version of the lives of hundreds of casual acquiantances. Fat Sarah from third grade is getting married and I’m still single?! But I’m wayyyyy prettier than her!! Repeat ad infinitum.

    • Replies: @JerryC
  42. @Jason y

    Except that the Tinder scene is so lopsided in favour of women that they can find more higher quality partners than they would have found otherwise. So women don’t have reasons to go crazy over Tinder because it increased their value.
    Or maybe, those getting crazier don’t use Tinder, and Tinder is crowding out the dating scene, but it seems unlikely.

  43. Yale puts many of its best introductory courses on the internet. And well packaged college-level information in any field is easily found.

    The crux of the issue is that you can learn all you want for free. But college credits and a diploma will cost you on account of the accrediting monopoly.

    • Replies: @Paul Jolliffe
  44. @anon

    I think there’s an interaction going on between dating sites/apps and porn that isn’t being explored yet.

    Speaking for myself, I have a tendency to start off by going to Tinder or POF (I know, I know) and check out profiles in my area, then after a little while find myself gravitating to porn. Seems like a natural progression, emotionally as well as libidinally.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
  45. @Anon

    It’s interesting to ask older people in long, happy marriages how they met. It often turns out to be in a way that is now politically incorrect.

    This is no coincidence. The Jaffe Memo determines what is politically correct or incorrect. Progressivism is hard eugenics + plausible deniability.

    • Replies: @Saxon
  46. @Pat Boyle

    The classroom lecture certainly never worked for me, but I think it works for many, if not most college students. I would strongly agree with a test-out option, but it will likely never happen. It would weaken the barriers to entry, and would potentially devalue the classroom achievements and investments of tens of millions of college graduates. Questions for you Pat. Are auto-didacts relatively rare? If so, why?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    , @bomag
  47. @SIMPLEPseudonymicHandle

    Except that the Tinder scene is so lopsided in favour of women that they can find more higher quality partners than they would have found otherwise. So women don’t have reasons to go crazy over Tinder because it increased their value.

    Try telling them that. I don’t know a single woman who likes Tinder or has anything positive to say about it’s effect on the dating scene. They hate it at least as much as we do.

    Hell, a couple of women even came up with Bumble, the professional woman’s antidote to Tinder rejection. My female friends swear by it. It’s the only dating app I’ve seen so far that requires you to state your astrology sign if you want to set up an account.

  48. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Song For the Deaf

    The bars are cohorts, ranked in degree of attractiveness, and populated by however many subjects are considered to meet that degree of attractiveness by the opposite sex people using OkCupid.
    Think of them as letter grades. No men get an “A,” but a fifth of women get a “C.”

    • Replies: @Song For the Deaf
  49. Saxon says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    It doesn’t quite work that way since they some may be really good in some traits but not so much in others i.e. a very good looking but very stupid man who may not have the best of mental traits either. So at the absolute top which is where you see the thot-to-roastie pipeline aiming constantly as they provide virtual harems to a tiny percentage of unusually attractive men who are almost certainly always more attractive than them comparatively, there are only a very small percentage of guys with all of the right traits.

    Which is why you see for example that now-expunged OKCupid data (saved on archive)

    https://archive.fo/n5JV5

    … where women rate an astounding 80% of men as below-average. It’s probably why you just see a lot of guys tune out and do entertainment things with their time and I don’t think that it’s “Tinder” per se that’s done it, but that the sexual revolution combined with newer tech like Tinder. There are no consequences for bad female sexual behavior. So now you just see this situation where a huge percentage of women jump into bed with a small percentage of men who pass them around until they are middle-aged and whine about no good men and I can’t find a husband and boo hoo here’s my article in New York Times/HuffPo/etc.

    F. Roger Devlin has written extensively about it and I think he compiled a book about it with using the title of one of his papers, “Sexual Revolution in Power.” It’s very dysfunctional but the women by and large don’t want to hear it and don’t want to give up the status quo, since the only ones complaining about it are over the hill and it’s too late for them anyway.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    , @Rosie
  50. Random Q.

    If men have HD VR porn, Video games and Tinder as urge saters then who dafuq are the dudes doing all the raping liberal women constantly whine about? Do crime statistics show a rise?

    I’m tempted to simply put it down to a fetish, part of the mental breakdown.

    • Replies: @Saxon
  51. Anon[384] • Disclaimer says:

    So your theory is that this 70-year-old grandmother professor emeritus was fooling around on Tinder, and did not score as many hookups as she expected?

    • LOL: Harry Baldwin
  52. JerryC says:
    @Anonymous

    “imagine being bombarded on a daily basis with an overly glamorized version of the lives of hundreds of casual acquiantances.”

    Yes. This is exactly the problem with social media.

  53. Saxon says:
    @Desiderius

    It’s largely hard dysgenics given the importation and propping-up of third world peasants less capable than the people being removed by the hard and soft forms of social engineering, but yes this is part of what’s going on to an extent. Largely (white-heterosexual) beta males are being progressively criminalized with ever more calls to punitive measures should they dare approach anyone who doesn’t find them attractive.

    Terms like “stare rape” “microrape” and all of this nonsense is concocted and endless whines about “manspreading” by the same people who will give you a blank NPC stare if you talk about Islamic rape gangs.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  54. @Anon

    Yep. The Pareto Principle holds true in dating too, at least on campus. Twenty percent of the people (heavily skewed by the frats/sororities no doubt) are having 80% of the sex.

  55. Saxon says:
    @SIMPLEPseudonymicHandle

    Could have to do with the massive increase in Male-to-Female transexuals and the soyboy phenomenon, though. 3-4 years doesn’t seem like long enough for the women to start freaking out. Unless those women were close to “hitting the wall” as Heartiste may say. The whine articles about not being able to find any decent men are from middle-aged women between 30 and 50 who wasted their youth in the post-sexual revolution age by doing the same things Tinder just makes easier to do.

  56. Dr. War for Blair Mountain’s medical discovery:

    It was back in 1967 in Haight Ashbury…..Hillary Clinton’s birth cohort of young upper class WASP Female Bluebloods fucked their brains out like a dog in the street….picked up some nasty syphyllus Sphirocheetes that crossed the ol’blood brain barrier…..jeez talk about a lax border security policy……after these nasty critters migrated up the CNS into their brains, some serious chromoatin histone modification via the attachment of acetyl groups occured…..brain damage……onto epigenetic transmission to their daughters and granddaughters=Hillary Clinton’s Democratic Party Voting Bloc…

    GD!!!….I really do deserve the Nobel Prize in Medicine for this discovery…..The epigenetic basis of the classy…the kind that wants to nuke Christian Russia…Femminist breakdown..

    • Replies: @Ripple Earthdevil
  57. Anonymous[245] • Disclaimer says:
    @Pat Boyle

    Should we burn Harvard down or Should we bomb it?

    No need for such extreme measures. The real estate could be turned into nice condo units.

  58. Anonym says:
    @Pat Boyle

    You know, Trump’s doing a bang-up job of BTFOing the long march through the institutions, at least as it comes to the judiciary.

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2018/10/13/in-kentucky-donald-trump-praises-rock-ribbed-mitch-mcconnell/

    I wonder what he could do to academia if/when he sets his mind to it. They have tenure there too. Fascists with tenure, what’s not to like? ;) I’ll raise a beer to KMac (who is not actually a fascist). I don’t wish pogroms but we do need a society and its organs that benefits us for a change.

  59. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:
    @J.Ross

    This explains the Giselle guy. Women being the ‘fairer sex’, ugly men want to be women to be considered ‘pretty’.

  60. Saxon says:
    @Nigerian Nationalist

    Video games are largely played by white and east Asian boys and men. There’s an entire cottage industry of vultures who try to make a living whining about the fact that this is the case and that most of it seems to suit their tastes, probably because they’re the ones who buy most of the stuff related to it. These aren’t the demographics who really commit much any rape, though.

    The rape that they’re whining about isn’t happening in the way they’re saying it is. It’s not white frat boys going on rape rampages. College campuses tend to be much safer than the areas surrounding them for example. The “liberal women” don’t care about the people who are doing the actual raping, because the entire stack of complaining is just an attack on specifically white men. Rape for example used to be largely an urban myth in places like Sweden and the people doing it aren’t the Swedish men. Sweden and some other countries like it also now have a sex ratio worse than China which doesn’t help either. Yet if you point out who is actually doing the raping it’s just screeching about racism and no counter-argument.

    When you get to Tinder and things like it though, you can see it’s a lopsided thing where only a small percentage of men will have any easy success so it’s not really an avenue for anyone who actually has trouble in this regard. It just helps winners win even larger.

  61. Coemgen says:

    There’s an inherent problem with Tinder: heterosexual men tend to not photograph well.

  62. Lot says:
    @J.Ross

    OK Cupid’s blog is a HBD stats goldmine.

    The House midterms are shaping up to be the Old Jew Deca-Billionaire Superbowl.

    Uncle Shel is putting in another $20 million for the Red Team, for a total thus far of $75 mil. Mayor Bloomberg has put in $80 million for the Blue Team.

    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/10/12/gop-democratic-record-fundraising-response-898162

    • Replies: @Saxon
    , @J.Ross
  63. Bugg says:

    Strictly anecdotal, but base this on 3 friends who got separated in their late 30s/early 40s . 2 are men, one is a woman. When we grew up, people who got divorced went about what ever they did quietly, in bars and late nights. Now they can jump back into the deep end of the dating pool immediately. It’s sophomore year of high school with viagra and nobody home, with twice the dishonesty and way more sex. Nobody is trying to meet someone to go to church with nor share a nice dinner. It’s a total sexual free for all on steroids.

    And it reverses the power dynamic. As one of my male friends described it, he is only limited by the time he has and the money he is willing to spend as to how often he wants to date and…well, get some. A society that has told women they are more than their bodies and beauty and youthfulness for 3 generations is now telling older women in the harshest terms that was a total lie.

  64. @Coemgen

    100% Agree.

    Why do I look great in the mirror but can’t take a good picture to save my life. Some evil trick of optics apparently.

  65. Saxon says:
    @Lot

    They purged most of the stats people were referencing. Who knows whether it was because of badthink or because the people they expect to actually pay them might do a cost/benefit analysis and say nah.

    • Replies: @Lot
  66. @Neil Templeton

    potentially devalue the classroom achievements and investments of tens of millions of college graduates

    Tens of millions doesn’t matter. That it would devalue the credentials obsessively hoarded by HR professionals matters a great deal.

  67. @Saxon

    It’s largely hard dysgenics

    Bissell-Brown has her grandchildren. Mother nature has no more use for low sperm count soyboys than any other woman does.

    third world peasants less capable

    At least those third world peasants are capable of an erection.

    • Replies: @Saxon
    , @James N. Kennett
  68. @notanon

    Things must have changed a lot. When I was in college, if you were female and had a pulse, someone at a frat party would hit on you. If you were dressed in jeans and a pullover like an ordinary human being instead of hooker-wear, he might even ask for your number or suggest studying together at a local coffee shop.

    • Replies: @notanon
  69. Apparently there was an increase in mental health awareness campaigns on US campuses in 2013. In 2013 Obama declared May to be mental health awareness month. That would go along way to explaining this upsurge in self-reported mental illness rates.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jamison-monroe-jr/enhancing-mental-health-a_b_7453180.html

    Note that a number of mental health professions blame mental health awareness campaigns for wasting resources that could be used for treating people with more serious mental illness:

    https://www.amazon.com/Insane-Consequences-Mental-Industry-Mentally/dp/1633882918/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1539488199&sr=1-1&keywords=insane+consequences

    It wouldn’t surprise me if the recent upsurge in high profile sexual harassment cases was also preceded by an increase in sexual harassment awareness campaigns by left-wing NGOs. Obama (again) declared April sexual assault awareness month back in 2009.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_Assault_Awareness_Month

  70. notanon says:
    @Rosamond Vincy

    Things must have changed a lot.

    it does seem that way – although i come from a time before this insanity took off so my “shrinking middle class” take is just a guess.

  71. @Saxon

    Blacks spend more time playing video games, surfing the net and looking at porn than anyone else.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    , @Anonymous
    , @Saxon
  72. @Coemgen

    True. It took me ten minutes just to find an angle for my Tinder pic that didn’t make me look like a mongoloid – and I’m a decent looking guy. Seemingly all the women on these things are experts with the angles.

  73. vinny says:
    @SIMPLEPseudonymicHandle

    The trouble with tinder is that it requires women to swipe right on men and they’re never going to do that except on the best looking guys. In older forms of online dating, most women would happily consider a decent written intro message from a not-hideous guy, but now on tinder they never go get those so they’re only in a pool with a very small number of very attractive guys.

    Doesn’t take too long before the lack of commitment makes them crazy.

  74. Some insight from a young gay man: In my opinion, Grindr and its spin offs, Tinder included, have been absolutely horrific for gay men’s mental wellbeing. I know a lot of people who work in psychology and counselling and I’ve had many conversations about the topic, and all of them have recounted that any time they deal with gay male patients, anxiety over dating apps pops up as a huge issue. Even for gay men who are in relationships; suddenly both the ability to cheat and the threat of a cheating partner are so much more readily available. And for the single guys, it makes random sex a habit frighteningly easily, and there’s something really hurtful/dehumanizing/whatever you want to call it in the whole experience, from putting up the best photo you can of yourself, to sharing pictures of body parts, the bland, lifeless text conversations, the desperation, the constant rejection.
    Unlike Tinder, Grindr works by presenting a grid with partners sorted by proximity, so you can literally see who is close by. Most gay men who aren’t really old or obese can find someone to hook up with within a few hours if they wanted to. It’s totally unrestrained libido and while it may make immediate pleasure a lot easier to get, it has severely damaged many gay communities around the world since men no longer need to go to a physical location to find partners (hurting bars/clubs, bookstores, community centers and other venues like that), leading to gay men feeling isolated and alone and without a support network of gay friends. Sure, gay bars can be seedy, but it’s a lot easier to make friends there and it’s not nearly as dehumanizing and weird as a dating app.
    Gay men need to make gay friends because a lot of their straight friends who were there in their 20s will drop off the map once they start having kids and moving to the suburbs. I really feel worried for a lot of my fellow young gay guys who have almost no interaction with other gay guys outside of hook ups.

    • Replies: @exlib
  75. Felix.... says:

    Tinder is entirely based around photos, yes, but that does not mean it entirely revolves around looks. A random guy with elite-tier good looks and nothing but mirror selfies on his tinder profile will certainly get a fair amount of matches, but so will a relatively young guy with merely average looks who has photos demonstrating wealth, a jet setter lifestyle in various popular locales across the world, and a simple bio stating to the effect “wanna take some girl for a week of yachting in Ibiza, drinks on me”. If you scroll through tinder you will notice the hottest thots invariably have photos of themselves on yachts, you can figure out the rest.

    The rise of photo-centered apps like instagram, facebook, snapchat etc has led to the creation of a photo-arms race among females. A man’s ability to take a girl on “photogenic adventures” which she can then attention whore about on social media is a bigger asset than mere handsomeness.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
  76. @Jason y

    Right, that’s part of the problem: it used to be people could lie to themselves about their sexual market value. That’s more difficult when you can’t help but notice that the cute girls you’re swiping right on aren’t swiping back.

    No, it’s not. It’s the same as what you noticed before “swiping” existed.

  77. @ScarletNumber

    Yes, well from reading the article it doesn’t seem like he was actually convicted of rape.

    But it does seem that he actually did it. And no jury anywhere is going to take his side after he changed his story a million times and then admitted that his actions in the matter justified his being registered as a sex offender.

    • Replies: @bucky
  78. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Lot

    I was taken aback by mainstream media crowing about how Beto O’Rourke is raising unprecedented funds but Cruz is narrowly leading in polls. When Beto described his donations (to imply that he’s not being propped up by out of state billionaires), he did not mention their average size, the way Bernie Sanders boasted about most of his donations being small. It’s like, what part of this are you guys not getting?

    • Replies: @Lot
  79. The youngest of my three cousins on my mother’s side is in his early 30′s. He’s an incredibly attractive 6ft graduate from Yale that has been working in international finance for nearly a decade. I will never forget the first time I heard of Tinder: it was at Thanksgiving five or six years ago. Same cousin. He explained the app’s basic concept to me and then said “I just like the sensation of ‘swiping left’” (or ‘right,’ I can’t remember which is the gesture of approval).

    I swear I’m not exaggerating that he spent a good deal of the afternoon swiping away at his screen with a VERY satisfied look on his face…all I know is that it seemed like an overwhelmingly powerful piece of social media tech at the time.

  80. @Saxon

    Even on college campuses, the rapes/sexual assaults/voyeurs are mostly non-white. At least that’s the case in Vancouver, Canada.

    • Replies: @Saxon
  81. imposing a male homosexual approach upon how heterosexuals meet the opposite sex could be bad for the happiness of heterosexuals

    A succinct expression of an impression I’ve long received

  82. anon[402] • Disclaimer says:
    @BenKenobi

    In my rather prole flyover city Tinder is full of the outwardly trashy lower class, bots, and prostitutes. Most of the women on Tinder here use Snapchat filters on every single pic! It’s unreal…

    Middle class and up use Bumble.

    From my vantage point it seems Tinder turned into the old Myspace: the Ghetto of the Internet. But maybe it’s different in college towns or on the coasts?

  83. @J.Ross

    ‘….There’s a chart for OkCupid results…’

    It’s possible that this is a variation on the old ‘if she says yes she’s no lady’ saw.

    Let me explain. Men will relatively freely admit ‘yes, I want her.’ I wouldn’t be surprised if women feel compelled to disavow such feelings. After all, one of the elements in the way the game is played is the man makes his interest clear without being tedious about it. Then it’s ‘we’ll see.’ Typically, a woman signals her interest only as the last step before consummation.

  84. With apps like Tinder, real life charm is no longer required… you can make a carefully constructed simulacrum. Men and women don’t learn the unspoken rules of interaction, so confusion & misunderstanding reign. In the same way, men who grow up without sisters often resort to ‘game’ or become incels. And women who don’t have brothers become sluts or resentful feminists.

    Charmlessness is a dangerous problem. Pakistanis in the UK, who are completely charmless because they’ve relied on arranged marriages for so long, end up raping children because they can’t charm real woman into bed.

  85. @Hypnotoad666

    Men in the top ranking don’t waste their time on OKCupid because they know they can get what they want without it.

    As a corollary, women probably automatically discount the rating of any man appearing on OKCupid.

  86. @Pat Boyle

    On an industry-wide basis, university education is a scam. However, there is real value to collecting outstanding minds in one locale. It’s hard to duplicate the effect of being surrounded by 99th percentile minds 24/7. Obviously, nowadays, Harvard/Yale are doing damage, but that’s the fault of individuals, not of the structure of higher education.

    • Agree: Rosie
    • Replies: @Anomymous
  87. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Colin Wright

    But they track perfectly with numerous observations in behavior. Men want a woman and women want the absolute top half per cent of men.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  88. @Roderick Spode

    Worth noting that both Grindr and Tinder were created by ((them)).

  89. Neoconned says:

    Im speculating but I recall around that same period (2011-14) that MANY message forums that provided anonymity or semi anonymity were going away with web sites urging people to go to FB….

    I’ve always been distrustful of social media since the MySpace era so I saw the govt surveillance shit coming from a mile away.

    The problem with social networks is access and status. Without access you have no status and to women and some men status literally is everything.

    MySpace allowed for anonymity in browsing until the feminists starting screaming saying it allowed for serial killers to stalk girls etc

    But probably half their traffic were men looking at random women. Facebook changed that with it’s walls and walls of security and “you control who sees what” thing. This basically turned the open digital prairie so to speak into a bunch of fenced off digital real estate where access meant everything. Without the freedom to browse what was the point of being on there? FB stagnated but was kept afloat via Wall St stock pump gimmicks and the deep state giving them contracts and monopoly prosecution immunity in exchange for allowing the spooks to spy on you and me.

    It’s gotten worse with Snapchat….it basically allows the user aka the cute women to know who viewed what picture and how often….in other words the social media companies took away the male freedom of open browsing to kiss up to whiny women who didn’t want ugly beta males looking at their “unauthorized ” bikini shots etc

    It’s all about control and access.

    I don’t do Snapchat….if I can’t browse hot bimbos anonymously what’s the point of even being on there?

    • Replies: @Jay Fink
  90. Lurker says:
    @BenKenobi

    I’d be happy with Fumble.

  91. Lurker says:
    @Song For the Deaf

    But blacks are almost nowhere to be found in a sub-culture of writing, talking about, discussing games. Never mind creating.

    • Agree: jim jones
  92. Lot says:
    @J.Ross

    Beto really did raise about $50 mil in small online donations.

    There usually is one candidate like that per cycle.

    A billionaire getting good advice would avoid that expensive and hard to hold seat in favor of more realistic Nevada, Arizona and Missouri races.

    Also a good time to focus on state races.

    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
  93. Lot says:
    @Saxon

    Yeah I remember them shutting that HBD-curious blog down, despite it garnering them tons of free media attention.

    Fortunately there are archives of it.

  94. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Song For the Deaf

    Anyone walking past black kids at the Johnson County KS, or Wichita Public Library computers will notice they are looking at porn most of the time. If you catch a white kid or grown man at it and tell a librarian they will throw them out but if you catch a black kid doing it and tell a librarian they will throw you out.

    All the new hires at JoCo are South or Central American upscale, “light/white mestizo” immigrants because they only hire people with Spanish language skills and most MLS degree holding Americans are too low IQ to learn a foreign language. JoCo threw out all their non-Spanish foreign language books in secret, in locked dumpsters, and bought huge numbers of Spanish books none of which circulate because Mexican mestizos and indios do not read.

  95. AndrewR says:
    @Felix....

    Jet-setting yacht thots make up an extremely small (and, IMHO, insignificant) proportion of females on social media.

  96. @Lot

    “Arizona and Missouri” ah continuing your anti-prophet streak I see after trying to split the baby on Kavanaugh.

    • Replies: @Lot
  97. @J.Ross

    Right. I was mainly curious about the third one from the left. Does it mean they find the man mildly unattractive, neutral, etc.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  98. @Saxon

    ” a huge percentage of women jump into bed with a small percentage of men who pass them around until they are middle-aged and whine about no good men and I can’t find a husband and boo hoo here’s my article in New York Times/HuffPo/etc.”

    I’ve posted these links before, but worth a repost –

    It was February 2009 and, at 44-and-a-half, she had left a bad long-term relationship and moved into a grotty London flat. “I was standing by the window, watching the rain make dusty tracks down the glass, when the traffic in the street below seemed to go silent, as if I’d put it on ‘mute’. In that moment, I became acutely aware of myself, almost as if I were an observer of the scene from outside my body. And then it came to me: it’s over. I’m never going to have a baby.

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/oct/02/the-desire-to-have-a-child-never-goes-away-how-the-involuntarily-childless-are-forming-a-new-movement

    Her support site for childless women, Gateway Women, is an incredibly sad read, especially when you go into any UK town and see every headscarf pushing a stroller with a couple more in tow. “I believe that children are our future” – and it’s not good.

    And

    Like me, most of my friends are in their 30s, some turning 40. Those with partners and children have disappeared, other than posting their idyllic family life.

    We’ve tried all of the dating things, found no one and biological clocks are ticking. One friend said her life is not worth living because she hasn’t got a partner or a child. In the past I’d give advice and encouragement – suggest things might turn out all right in the end. There’s still time!

    But now there’s actually not time. I can’t encourage, because life isn’t going how we thought it would. We’re being left behind and without the financial ability (or housing) to freeze eggs or go it alone, or adopt.

    I get harassed by some friends, almost bullying me into going on dating apps because it worked for them. But I hated it – men were rude, unkind and I felt physically threatened. I found myself despising all men.

    The idea that single people in their 30s are all having fun is a lie. We are the have-nots and we are sad. What now?

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/sep/16/my-friends-and-i-are-single-childless-and-running-out-of-time-mariella-frostrup

    • Replies: @Pericles
    , @Saxon
    , @WHAT
    , @notanon
    , @Lowe
  99. bucky says:
    @ben tillman

    And both are Hmong.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
  100. Pericles says:
    @J.Ross

    So 81% of men are rated 3/7 or worse, a number which seems familiar. Also 1 in 4 men are ‘least attractive’, which seems like a pretty tough assessment in itself.

    Silver lining, a man can at least take consolation in not being alone in his unattractiveness. As we see, it’s kind of crowded.

  101. Anonymous[177] • Disclaimer says:

    I was somehwat surpised that when, after a few drinks, I took a bathroom topless selfie showing my defined six pack and immediately got a flurry of matches. Extra interestingly, almost all of the new matching women’s profiles said “not interested in one night stands etc”.

    Ha.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
  102. Lot says:
    @Jack Hanson

    I am making no predictions there other than the Dems will do better than in Texas.

    I made money on Kav, though I exited that market because I got tired of following it after nonstop coverage.

    My current main bet is Dem House+GOP Senate. That seems pretty obvious but when I made it the payout was about even money and I am holding that one till election day. I also have my longshot Pence is GOP nominee in 2020 at 10-1. Had some Jair shares too but sold them for a small profit when I realized I didn’t want to follow that race closely.

    Finally, I have some bets against the GOP super optimists who think the House GOP will gain seats. I think the odds are about 7-1 on that.

    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
  103. @J.Ross

    ‘But they track perfectly with numerous observations in behavior. Men want a woman and women want the absolute top half per cent of men.’

    Okay, but…

    The difference also fits with the traditional distinction between men and women. Social sanctions aside, men can engage in sex with multiple partners without consequence; pre-birth control, it behooved women to offer themselves to only the best available partner. Obviously, the pill changed the rules, but we’re still programmed for the older situation.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  104. Pericles says:
    @Anon

    Dating apps are optimized for letting [the attractive 20%] guys sleep with a lot of girls and move on, but women may more often want to settle in with one guy [belonging to the attractive 20%].

    Well, the woman is fighting four other women who also want to settle with this incredibly special guy. (“Ladies, ladies, please …”, hold up hands with a smirk.) So of course there will be a lot of crying and wine and cats and angry feminist articles.

    I know, I know, all this complicated mathematics doesn’t matter. Feelings matter.

  105. Pericles says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    So it’s very odd that females would not find any males to be maximally attractive.

    Well, women are very picky, you know.

    Also note that something like 0.49% would presumably round down to 0%. So rather than zero it’s more like there are ‘negligible’ numbers of maximally attractive males.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  106. Pericles says:
    @Anonymous

    JoCo threw out all their non-Spanish foreign language books in secret, in locked dumpsters,

    So librarians are trash too these days.

  107. Pericles says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Her support site for childless women, Gateway Women, is an incredibly sad read, especially when you go into any UK town and see every headscarf pushing a stroller with a couple more in tow. “I believe that children are our future” – and it’s not good.

    I get harassed by some friends, almost bullying me into going on dating apps because it worked for them. But I hated it – men were rude, unkind and I felt physically threatened. I found myself despising all men.

    The idea that single people in their 30s are all having fun is a lie. We are the have-nots and we are sad. What now?

    Maybe arranged marriages wasn’t such a bad idea after all.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  108. Altai says:
    @Dansereau3

    Exactly. These apps always start as an attempt to make the carousel from Logan’s Run; a way for people to have one night stands but there just aren’t enough women up for that at any one time to maintain that, even if the man is Chris Hemsworth.

    Someone should make a nice ‘Bring him home to mom’ profile and put it on both Tinder and Grindr and show the results. Hell, Tinder does same sex searching now too, so just switch on gay Tinder and see the difference.

  109. @TelfoedJohn

    This is the most important comment made here, and it will be ignored by the mostly charmless nerdy audience.

  110. exlib says:

    Holy crap are old women ugly. But they are more demanding than ever.

  111. exlib says:
    @TheMediumIsTheMassage

    That’s interesting, I thought gays had the closest approximation to heaven that actually exists.

    • Replies: @TheMediumIsTheMassage
  112. Bitfu says:
    @Maciano

    So silly. The world is not becoming more ‘objectively measurable’ because of tech. Hell. we can’t even obtain and agree on weather temperatures. Not even mentioning all the statistical manipulations once said data is obtained.

    Where are these amazing objective insights?
    Can’t find if for economic data, nor academic performance. Hell, you couldn’t even tell me the number of Twitter followers you have (assuming you’re on Twitter). After bots, spam accounts, inactive members–you really don’t know. But yet, you’re confident tech has made beauty (of all things!) objectively measurable.

    Maybe…maybe you can find it objective measurements on your FitBit app (something tells me you have one). But wait–comparisons between fitness tracking apps show they aren’t reliable either. Tech can’t even get pedometers done right.

    What you miss–what all of Big Tech missses–with all this ‘measurability’ nonsense I think has something to do with the Coastline Paradox.

    The measured length of the coastline depends on the method used to measure it and the degree of cartographic generalization. Since a landmass has features at all scales, from hundreds of kilometers in size to tiny fractions of a millimeter and below, there is no obvious size of the smallest feature that should be measured around, and hence no single well-defined perimeter to the landmass. Various approximations exist when specific assumptions are made about minimum feature size.

    Tech misses–badly, with impunity and so much nauseating arrogance–the implications of the importance of ‘when specific assumptions are made’.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  113. Saxon says:
    @Song For the Deaf

    Blacks and other global south people look at porn the most for sure. Pakistan for example is somehow a huge consumer of it despite probably not so widespread internet access.

    Not so sure about video games outside certain genres (maybe blacks really like licensed league sports games? most of the people at that gaming event that got shot up a month or two ago were black and it was a sports game) because it’s always some white or east Asian guys who on the internet end up being content creators/streamers/etc. related to this on virtually every popular game. Anything that’s got a sort of in-depth/hardcore bent to it this pattern holds.

  114. Saxon says:
    @Desiderius

    Virtually everyone is capable of an erection. Even the soyboys. That’s not the issue here. The issue is that “sexual market dynamics” have been distorted in various ways; social, legal and economic. You now have most women who are wasting their youth chasing after a small percentage of top men hoping they put a ring on it, when it’s clear that they can’t marry all of them, not that they’d want to with all of those options and all of the legal pitfalls.

    How much have you actually read about this topic? Not much I’d wager.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  115. Saxon says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    It’s the entirely predictable result of the lifestyle they lived, and since it’s only over-the-hill women who are expressing these regrets the ones who haven’t already alienated their pool of potential future husbands with their conduct from the age of probably 14 to ~30-whatever, the young women won’t take the message. It’s a pattern going on generations now and the women only seem to start regretting it once they find out that they can’t actually do that and then hope to find someone decent afterwards.

    Some of it’s financial but the pattern started in the late 1960s, early 1970s before the financial troubles were this bad. I don’t see how to fix this problem without some sort of dictatorship rolling back all of the bad laws and social engineering. If you can’t hold women accountable for their bad actions and continue rewarding them, you will continue getting this.

  116. Saxon says:
    @TheMediumIsTheMassage

    Yes it’s the same kind of distribution as off-campus but the campus itself is safer than the surrounding area, contra the myths about white frat boys being rape machines and the problems on campus somehow being “especially bad.” It’s all just inverted reality to push an agenda.

  117. WHAT says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    This article made me physically ill, thank you very much. That, after years of fucking /pol/, is a legit archievement.

    In a world where there is war, disease, starvation, murder and divisiveness, being a childless old maid is pretty low on the scale of tragedies.

    Sheer horror of this quote! Sure, there is a lot of usual muh vagene bullshit about how vagene-staffed HR will have to make accomodations for barren hags(and we all know at whose expence), but the quote exemplifies the death knell itself.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  118. theMann says:
    @Pericles

    All of these assessments of men are completely irrelevant, because it remains a salient fact with every woman who ever lived………..

    MONEY TALKS AND BULLSHIT WALKS

  119. @Anonymous

    I will never find a more succinct description of modern day America.

  120. @Anon

    “It’s worth noting, also, that apparently on average sex is down, and there is something similar to Charles Murray’s cognitive elite happening with sex: Just as the top SAT scorers end up in New York and leave the losers behind, the male winners on dating apps (looks and outgoingness) end up screwing dozens of girls and the losers are left with, what, trying to timidly make a connection with women who feel used and are mentally unstable because of the experience? I don’t know …”

    As I pointed out some weeks ago, there is some evidence that white millennials are having less sex than any generation (not merely 60 years, as this article states) but in hundreds of years!

    If true – and it very well may be true – then this rivals Steve’s “Most Important Graph in the World”!

    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-millennials-less-sex-20160802-snap-story.html

  121. @J.Ross

    Umm, J. Ross, in two of the five photos in the montage on the home page for the “OK Cupid” website, the two models have six arms!

    Truly bizarre.

    If I were a young guy, that home page alone would turn me off from that site forever!

    (I bet a disproportionate share of the single women on that site are women with whom normal young guys wouldn’t want to be nearer than ten zip codes.)

    https://www.okcupid.com/

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  122. @Hypnotoad666

    All true.

    Hell, “Books on Tape” was available in every public library going back to the Reagan Administration, if not the 1970′s.

    But most people don’t want an “education”, they want the minimum amount of knowledge so they can get that credential and move on.

    Anyway, at least 50% of the value of the on-campus college experience are the young people with whom a kid could hang out.

  123. @Roderick Spode

    Someone referred to Sex and the City as a bunch of woman acting like gay men. I never got into that show; it’s some mythical NY that has nothing to do with the one I knew.

    • Replies: @Roderick Spode
  124. notanon says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Her support site for childless women, Gateway Women, is an incredibly sad read,

    yes, so many women have had their life poisoned by “Cosmopolitan”, “Sex in the City” etc

  125. Lowe says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    That second account is sad. It is unfortunate that she couldn’t get over herself and just pairbond with one of the men she met online. At least a couple were willing, I’m sure.

  126. notanon says:

    Rosie’s post #19 with the graph showing what women actually do as opposed to what they say refutes a lot of what is being said here cos

    casual sex != ltr

    so yes women who want casual sex only swipe the hottest 1% of men (duh) whereas those looking for a LTR don’t (partly cos they want their own guy and don’t want too much competition for him)

    (for example i’ve known numerous women in the past who admitted they deliberately made their husband fat so other women wouldn’t try to nab him)

  127. notanon says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    So it’s very odd that females would not find any males to be maximally attractive.

    eggs are expensive, sperm is cheap -> women playing hard to get

  128. It started around 2013. This is when those born in 1995 began entering college. 1995 is a significant date because that was the first full year that kids started being vaccinated within the first 9 months of life. Prior to that, kids received their first vaccinations at age 5.

    A little history. The vaccine manufacturers were granted immunity from product liability in 1987. In the wake of the failure of Hillary Care (which would have ended medical freedom in America had it passed) Hillary began pushing vaccination in 1994. Reducing the age of vaccination from 5 years old to 9 months old was a part of this campaign.

    The video of that fat girl having a temper tantrum while seated in a university auditorium is a demonstration of Mercury poisoning (from the Thimerosal in vaccines) as is much of the hyper-sensitivity/safe spaces phenomenon we hear about from the campus environment these days.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  129. Anoni says:
    @notanon

    As prof to some of these kids. Girls are not not not chasing after provider types. Non Chad providers are big losers in tinderfication of girls. Tinder doesn’t make sense because it should show up in male depression and suicide more than female. Have had many solid young men complain about not having ltr. Young men w very good prospects and decent looking.

    • Replies: @notanon
  130. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Colin Wright

    You’re restating my point like a contradiction. There’s something you’re avoiding. The men here aren’t rapists.

  131. @Anonymous

    ‘Toto, I’ve a feeling we’re not in Kansas anymore.”

  132. I think that there’s a lot to the theory that Tinder is buggering people’s thought processes and contributing to the seeming interplay between mental illness and contemporary political trends. However, I would quibble the completeness of the author’s analysis of the phenomenon – namely the proposition that Tinder has underlined just how unattractive some people are and driven those people mad. I think it’s a bit more complex:

    1. At the level of Beta males, of course, the glove fits perfectly. According to one of the Chinese app developers, men swipe right on 60% of women while women only swipe right on 6% of men. At the peripheries, this means that approximately 5% of men end up never getting the coveted right swipe from any woman while the corresponding female percentage is statistically negligible. The underlying fact is that if you’re an unattractive woman, it has always been the case that every dog has her day – i.e. there is always some man who will settle for you on any given night. For an unattractive man, by contrast, women, due to their lower levels of promiscuity, are much picker and therefore more cruel – so unattractive males are far more likely to spend evenings in the company of their right hands and boxes of Kleenex.

    2. Dating apps give people a wider catchment area and consequently allow for more optimization of choice. This generally serves the more attractive better than the less attractive. For those who are unattractive, the broader field of competition counts against them and, in this regard, what’s bad for unattractive women is immeasurably worse for unattractive men – hence these Tim Wise types reveling in the suffering of Alpha Male Brett Kavanaugh. In Ireland, we recently saw three famous rugby players acquitted of rape in one of these Fifty Shades alcohol fueled orgy scenarios and the chorus of Beta males with unmanly stacatto voices declaring themselves feminist “allies” and tweeting #Ibelieveher was deafening.

    3. I think that the main difficulty that Tinder has caused women is that it has reduced their asymmetric bargaining power by relieving men of the embarrassment factor associated with initiating sexual contact. In a bar or nightclub type scenario, a man will not make a move until he has tested the waters and established a reasonable probability of success. Once he has established some reciprocation, half the night has already gone by and he has no realistic option of hedging his bets with another woman. The bottom line about the old world of dating was that the man always started the night with long odds and had to commit himself early on in the night. A willing woman started with much shorter odds than her male equivalent and could switch horses at any time – even on the way home from the nightclub, to many a hapless man’s despair.

    4. As such female dating strategies are all built around a balance of power which enormously favours them during peak coupling years. Tinder comes nowhere near the “equality” of bargaining power that feminists demand in all fields in which men outperform women, let alone tipping the balance in favour of men – a man can dream. However, it strikes me that even the reduction of the female advantage from its Darwinian stable state is causing some women – especially less attractive ones whose bargaining power is lower and women tipping into middle age and whose bargaining power is on the wane – to go off the deep end.

    5. This is why I occasionally feel a stab of grudging respect when feminists angrily and petulantly proclaim their lack of concern about false allegations of sexual misconduct and why I often find myself sharing their disgust when self-appointed “voice of reason” types at the Economist or Reason take time out from their open borders shilling to warn of the danger of an “unintended” destruction of due process and creation of an environment of fear and suspicion. Is it not obvious to anyone with a room temperature IQ that this coalition of Beta males and Ben & Jerries guzzling women who are driving the moral panic du jour are actively trying to create an atmosphere of accusation hysteria in order to ruin the social lives of the people who make them feel inadequate – in effect, social conservatism for intellectually mediocre losers? Or, as Steve likes to ask, am I just a wacko extremist?

    • Replies: @Benjaminl
    , @Desiderius
  133. Jack D says:
    @Pericles

    I think that almost everyone (even women) agrees on what maximal female beauty looks like, but male beauty is less defined. We don’t even call it beauty, we call it handsomeness. Male beauty is also corrupted in our age by its association with homosexuality – men who are too beautiful are suspected of being gay. In any case, no woman can call a man truly beautiful until she sees his bank balance.

    • LOL: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    , @Chrisnonymous
  134. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous

    Oh, you are just a cranky old white guy. “Hey kids, get off of my lawn!” Welcome to the new America. Diversity doesn’t actually mean books writing in other dead white man languages like French and German and Italian. The last time anyone checked out any of those books was in 1974. We are having those burned as toxic waste. Diversity means Latino, although we are also looking into getting more books in Somali or Swahili or whatever it is that our new vibrant friends from Africa speak. I tried asking my Uber driver what books he likes to read. He mentioned the Holy Koran but when I pressed him on it he couldn’t think of any others. He probably didn’t want to embarrass me because he can’t get any of his favorite books at our library, but we are going to try to change that.

    As for black kids watching porn on the library computers, you have to understand that these kids are underprivileged and at home all they have is Obamaphones and Dish Network and no home internet. All the rich white kids watch porn in their rooms on their 17″ laptops with unlimited high speed internet, but these kids use up their Obamaphone data plans by the 10th of the month and for the rest of the month they have to hang out at the library. Also probably they were just doing their homework for their Human Sexuality Course and it’s just in your dirty old white man imagination that they were watching porn.

  135. Jay Fink says:
    @Neoconned

    I have an Instagram account just to look at beautiful women…All the women I follow are all in Europe and none are in the U.S. I am in awe of how much better looking the European women are…the whole continent from France to Russia. Hardly any obesity and the women still dress sexy there…no sweat pants and sneakers…at least those who want to be admired on Instagram.

    Many/most of the women on Instagram have private accounts. I request to follow ones that look good to me and to my surprise around half accept me. I look as ceeepy as can be on there with no pictures, few followers and 5,000 follows yet a very large number of these women accept me and are more than happy to have me admire their photos and add to the likes/hearts they get on them. I’m sure it’s a big ego trip for them but it makes me wonder why their accounts are private in the first place?

  136. @J.Ross

    I’m apart of that 0%.

    • LOL: Rosie
  137. @Pericles

    Silver lining, a man can at least take consolation in not being alone in his unattractiveness. As we see, it’s kind of crowded.

    At least in this case, company is no consolation for misery.

  138. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Song For the Deaf

    >what does “not first place” mean in male sexuality?
    It means you lose, you don’t get any, good night, auf wiedersehen, you stole fizzy drinks in black and white, good day sir!

  139. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Jack D

    There is a famous catfishing that hasn’t come up yet: pranksters created a profile with a history as a registered sex offender and a profile pic of a male underwear model. He was swarmed.

  140. @Jim Don Bob

    FB, Twitter and Instagram are still relatively benign if you have a decebt online personality; Tinder boils it down to the bitter truth of your physical appearance and strips out more relevant match characteristics. It is utterly dehumanising. You may as well post a picture of one of the later-model sex dolls.

    By comparison, Match or eHarmony at least attempt to give you a balanced scorecard across several dimensions.

  141. @Rosamond Vincy

    That show was written and created by a gay man, Darren Star. It’s about him an his gay pals.

    The protagonists’ being portrayed as women is a smokescreen, as is the tenuous link to Candace Bushnell’s writing.

    A ex of mine from uni loved that show because it gave women license to, in her words, “be guys about sex.” She was incapable of linking this mentality to her long and tragic sexual history. Like most nymphomaniacs she had been abused as a child, but it was media people like Star who drove the last nail into the coffin of her dignity, I imagine. Glad I dodged that bullet.

  142. bomag says:
    @Neil Templeton

    I would strongly agree with a test-out option, but it will likely never happen. It would weaken the barriers to entry…

    Entry to academia; or entry to the job market?

    Testing is an excellent alternative to what we have today, but the danger is of the testing becoming corrupt.

    …and would potentially devalue the classroom achievements and investments of tens of millions of college graduates.

    It’s quite devalued as it is.

  143. @ScarletNumber

    Take your hate facts elsewhere, oppressor!

  144. Anonymous[150] • Disclaimer says:

    Tinder, no, because the melt down extends to demographics that aren’t involved in Tinder (elite colleges) or even dating (old marrieds).

    However Facebook, Instagram, and the rest of the social media monsters have a definite role here. 2102-2013 is around the time when Facebook and the rest could be considered fully entrenched in normal adult life, whereas before that they were still sort of something for teenagers to varying degrees. That would also have been around the time when the first class of college kids started who had been immersed in social media since the start of their teenage years.

    Social media is, of course, toxic to humans, especially female humans, presenting as it does a constant bombardment of carefully manicured and staged propaganda from everyone they know about their lives. It is one thing to be jealous of Elizabeth Taylor or whoever after reading about her in Us Weekly like the way things used to be, but quite another to be jealous of all of your supposed friends after reading about them constantly, all day, as happens now.

  145. @Jack D

    Actually, I think it’s the opposite. As the charts J.Ross posted show, men have a wide range of attraction while women are very clear about the narrow thing they are looking for. As far as I can tell, the variation in women’s attraction extends only to muscular/athletic vs. thin/intellectual. There is a lot of agreement on which men’s faces look good. On the other hand, even just on iSteve you’ll get arguments over whether supermodels are beautiful or ugly.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Red Pill Angel
  146. @Rosie

    Interesting graphs. From my… erm… experiences in like 5-6 dating sites/apps in the last decade, what the graphs portray is correct. However, I may add that:
    -Female messaging happens less, and usually in reply to the male messaging. Not to mention, there’s usually less female users in the first place. That the female messaging curve is in that not-so-predictable shape means not only that females have a lower view of the males messaging (after all, there’s more men on the internet, and they tend to be hornier and more desperate than the women since they have to chase more and get rejected more, and are probably not as successful in real life charming in the first place than the jocks who just use the site to score on occasion), but that the females sending those messages are also probably on the lower end of the male messaging curve and thus are also more desperate to message. To the left of the peak point is where the males get progressively hopeless, the summit being the right combination of engaging and attractive. To the right is a longish decline in messaging, as perhaps there’s the grey areas of average guys who don’t seem outstanding in other ways, and who may find someone but otherwise even be getting less lucky than an average or even uglier guy but who is richer or more entertaining. At the end of the curve you see it letting up a bit, as the fittest males have a bit more female attention naturally; however, that they message the middle more overall probably is due to the more attractive males on social media tending to be players or otherwise not the proverbial Mr Grey that millennial women have in their minds, while -again- some in the middle probably have other features that help them compete (not just wallet, though that’s a biggie). After all, the social media world is hard to date in, and even getting miraculously swapped doesn’t mean anything. You have to charm in text, without coming off fake, overzealous, nor boring, nor lonely, nor ignorant (and lately, not rightwing – and probably having to pay premium so your msg doesn’t get lost). And again, the Mr Grey types probably would only touch dating apps to swing or cheat, and probably need less messages to get to meet.
    -The male curve is predictable except for that ending where the most attractive females suffer (or rather, enjoy) a dropoff in messages received. The peak point is probably the kind of females that males on average consider the most beautiful that wouldn’t reject them. The relative scarcity of females mentioned earlier also colors the picture, as the hungrier and more numerous men will want the fewer pretty women. As stated above as well in regardz to men, the most attractive women will need the fewest messages in an interaction, possibly because the most attractive women probably won’t want an online rambler.

    In the end, it’s “Who pursues Whom” which controls the dynamic. Thus women have to put up with either message bombardments or few right swipes worth talking to, while men have to put up with writing endless messages/profile descriptions or getting pics taken on boats…
    Criss-crossing the graphs you mention would also show some of what I’ve mentioned. It could even show some subtler trends like some men dating down in order to get laid more (women do it, but tend to rather prefer hard currency and/or more engagement in return and not just orgasms).

    -Furthermore, I think some historical aspect of the trends has to be important. Dating apps weren’t always the same. The old catfish-heavy but at least more intimate (aka webcam-friendly) days of online messengers were replaced by the fb-lookalikes that made the user fill a profile, read someone else’s profile, take/steal pics for others to see you, write ever-wittier messages (if the site allowed you -lots had the freemium option of allowing you everything but putting paywall behind messaging. and well, men tend to message first…). All of this was a bit more developed than earlier efforts, and free platforms such as Pof and Okcupid exploded. However, it eventually came to a head that, while at first people enjoyed the ability to know so much about a date beforehand, eventually (as in other sites) people realized that the essays and pics and poems and lists of favorite bands and q&a’s political statements could be manufactured to varying degrees in order to get laid/paid. Not necessarily referring to catfishing or old school bs-ing between the genders, but to the general tendency online of flirting getting lost in translation to text, and the social media tendency of overvaluing the profile and text messages as opposed to organic conversation. Thus lots of anger eventually was palpable in profiles and interactions, as both genders increasingsly grew irritated from having to send(men) and receive (women) messages. So when Tinder arrived lots of people were relieved at first, specially men but also women, who thought that matching by image first would be a strong filter that would keep poor women’s sore inboxes unclogged and poor men’s forgotten messages on the first page. The unnoticed problem was that, as annoying as they were, messages were better for analyzing a person than just pics and a short description (and a link to ig or spotify, which have been added recently to Tinder to ameliorate issues). Thus the women that matched only on pics only had the right of the diagram of male attractiveness available; the tables then reversed, they have slim pickins now, and even then they’re unstable for the reasons described above. There’s also a feature called daily superlikes which pretty much means that once a day your swipe can be at the top of the list for someone else – and to increase that number from once daily, you gotta pay. Which means that pay for play is encouraged – thus the few pretty women who get swipes that they like have already selected for wealth even more, even if it didn’t mean these were valuable men otherwise (in the age of catfish, this matters). Men meanwhile got over the initial enthusiasm for all the hot pic swiping when they didn’t get much swipes back – the emphasis on pics meant less witty profile comments to get over any average-look and/or lonely-in-pics handicap, while the freemium scheme mentioned above also made it so women could select for even higher wealth displays. Thus, here we are at present day, with two camps of lonely people – the catlady SJW who is so tired of being used and underpaid compared to Stacey Malibu that binges on The Notebook and Tumblr or considers gender nonconformity or goes sugarbaby… and the incel nerd so tired of being u$ed and underfucked that pursues MGTOW, beta-male feminism, drowning in videogames and porn, or heck even Grindr… maybe that was the whole point? #conspiracy…

    • Replies: @Autochthon
  147. @Alec Leamas

    If there is a preeminent scholar of X who teaches classes at Oxford or Harvard, is there a good reason that his lectures shouldn’t be made available more broadly – even to students enrolled at other Universities?

    I can’t speak for Oxford or Haaaaavad , but there are a bunch of first-tier Western universities who make their subject offerings (but not ‘course credit’) accessible to all comers – often, for free.

    Coursera - a startup from 2012 – has a huge number of excellent courses from Stanford, Chicago and other genuinely elite US institutions. I’ve done the following 1-term courses

    • Computational Neuroscience (University of Washington)

    • Game Theory (Stanford University & UBC)

    • Game Theory II: Advanced Applications (Stanford)

    • Social and Economic Networks: Models and Analysis (Stanford)

    • Machine Learning (Stanford)

    • Introduction to Logic (Stanford)

    • Cryptography I (Stanford)

    • English Common Law: Structure and Principles (University of London)

    • Financial Engineering and Risk Management Part I (Wharton – Columbia)

    • Financial Engineering and Risk Management Part II (Wharton – Columbia)

    • Asset Pricing, Part 1 (Chicago)

    • Computing for Data Analysis (Johns Hopkins)

    • Computational Investing, Part I (Georgia Tech)

    I did these mostly as refreshers, since it’s 20 years since I was released into the wild: I spent the whole of the 1990s in an institution, as an economics/econometrics undergrad and postgrad student, then as a researcher.

    Machine Learning (which I did in 2014) is a slightly-watered-down version of the famous Stanford CS229 – a friend has done the formal course (and also Dan Boneh’s exceptionally-good Cryptography I) and he insists that there is bugger-all difference between the course content – just that on Coursera you get to have a second shot at assignments (but not exams) if your first grade is shit (was never problem for me: US grad school assessment seems ludicrously low-balled).

    Stanford, Princeton, and Yale all have open-learning, MOOC-style course offerings that are free (or near-free); I think Haaaaavad might also participate, but I can’t think of any member of staff at Haaaavad that has anything to say that might interest me (which is why I didn’t enrol there, despite a full 4-year ride). Oxford has Nuffield’s modelling think-tank, but their best work is 40 years ago.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  148. Rosie says:
    @Chrisnonymous

    Actually, I think it’s the opposite.

    You have it precisely backwards.

    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090626153511.htm

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
  149. @Anon

    It’s interesting to ask older people in long, happy marriages how they met.

    25½ years is long enough to qualify, I think – even though we’re not married and have no intention of ever being married: we’re both atheists, and have no desire to ask the State for a certificate to validate our relationship. (And we have no offspring and no plans to have any).

    Like most of my peer group who are still married, I met The Lovely at university; we met the day we both moved into a share house we had found on the student notice board (with a third person; none of we three knew each other).

    I almost didn’t take the room – didn’t like the house that much, the ‘other student’ was a dumb party-type, and the walk to campus was about 500m too long.

    Then The Lovely turned up with her stuff (she had already looked at the place and agreed to move in).

    Sometimes you just know. Sounds unfashionably mawkish and sentimental – like the sort of shit you read in women’s magazines – but that’s how it was.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  150. Corvinus says:

    I see Mr. Sailer is employing his third rule of journalism–Always quickly follow up an initial post with another post to ensure the lede from the first post is further buried and to solidify a premise that will be used as Alt Right fodder.

  151. @Paul Jolliffe

    the two models have six arms!

    Truly bizarre.

    Indeed.

  152. Little late on this one. Tinder is not causing undesirable women to confront their undesirability.

    Tinder causes women to have a much higher perception of their own value than what it “really” is.

    Men on Tinder don’t even look at the girls pictures, they just swipe right immediately anyway, as fast as possible. Almost zero women get swiped left by most men.

    While nearly all men get swiped left by most women.

    The crisis could be caused by the fact that they get the inflated sense of value because they can get the D easily from many higher quality men, but then the commitment market doesn’t lie. Tinder effect could be more women are being pumped and dumped.

    • Agree: L Woods
    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  153. @Roderick Spode

    I’ve never seen a single episode of Sex and the City, but after watching the Robot Chicken sketch I could never take it seriously:

  154. @TelfoedJohn

    Charmlessness is a dangerous problem. Pakistanis in the UK, who are completely charmless because they’ve relied on arranged marriages for so long, end up raping children because they can’t charm real woman into bed.

    This is such an interesting observation. It seems possible that there is a real selection effect due to the arranged marriages. I wonder how Pakistanis do at public speaking, sales etc. where you have to be comfortable talking to people.

    Also, Indians have arranged marriages, but they seem fairly outgoing.

    • Replies: @anonymouse
    , @TelfoedJohn
  155. Rosie says:
    @Saxon

    F. Roger Devlin has written extensively about it and I think he compiled a book about it with using the title of one of his papers, “Sexual Revolution in Power.” It’s very dysfunctional but the women by and large don’t want to hear it and don’t want to give up the status quo, since the only ones complaining about it are over the hill and it’s too late for them anyway.

    We don’t want to hear about it because it’s a Big Lie.

    We show that competition for mates creates a pronounced hierarchy of desirability that correlates strongly with user demographics and is remarkably consistent across cities. We find that both men and women pursue partners who are on average about 25% more desirable than themselves by our measures and that they use different messaging strategies with partners of different desirability.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  156. @Colin Wright

    Yes, this. This is deeply embedded in male-female evolutionary psychology. For a woman to admit interest feels like the last move in the game. For men it’s the first move. It’s definitely not because women only really want the top one percent of men. There are plenty of men women are potentially interested in, they just don’t want to fuck them without being pursued and reassured of genuine interest first.

  157. Rosie says:
    @TelfoedJohn

    In the same way, men who grow up without sisters often resort to ‘game’ or become incels. And women who don’t have brothers become sluts or resentful feminists.

    I am convinced that the small family norm has been bad for gender relations for this very reason.

  158. @Alec Leamas

    In addition to the online course offerings Kratoklastes has mentioned, there’s also The Teaching Company, which runs the Great Courses website, where you can buy hundreds and hundreds of more popularly-aimed general interest courses taught by standout university professors:

    https://www.thegreatcourses.com/

    The Great Courses lecturers certainly do get paid for their efforts.

    Universities have largely abandoned seeing themselves as repositories of knowledge. Knowledge = The Past, and that’s a bunch of stagnant sexist racist stuff thought up by stale pale males.

    ‘Research’ and social justice are their main concerns these days, at least in the humanities and social sciences.

    The stranglehold higher ed has placed on prospective students and their parents is the power to grant credentials.

    What would break the higher ed monopoly is as follows:

    ***Ways to obtain a degree/other credential via independent third-party examination.

    ***Prospective employers giving up the use of a degree as a screening mechanism for millions of jobs that don’t require degrees.

    It’s that second one that’s the real sticker. After Griggs vs Duke power, employers want to play it safe by requiring degrees for all kinds of jobs so they don’t get sued for disparate impact.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  159. L Woods says:
    @TelfoedJohn

    You still need “charm” (ie, a sufficiently low level of self-respect to play a dancing monkey) once you pull the chick offline. This is why “dating” comes with bad drinking habits: alcohol is needed to shut down your higher brain functions and turn you into an a facsimile of an NPC for the evening. Of course, if you’re already an NPC, then perhaps it’s easier. Wouldn’t know.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  160. notanon says:
    @Anoni

    my experience (20+ years ago when we still had a mostly middle class economy) was most women wanted to grab one guy and settle down but now it seems to have totally changed so i’m saying maybe supply and demand is distorting female behavior i.e. 80% of women chasing 20% of men with the last 20% who know they can’t compete becoming screechers.

    of that 80% of females you have say 60% spending their 20s on the thot-roastie pipeline with many temporary Chads while the 20% of Staceys sit and wait, counting down their eggs until Chad has finally had enough and wants to settle down with a Stacey when she can rush out a couple of kids in her 30s – while the incels look on.

    i don’t think tinder causes this but i wonder if it’s makes it more visible.

    if correct then the only solution is a revolution against the banking mafia – which by some strange coincidence is how all my theories end.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  161. @Jay Fink

    I look as ceeepy as can be on there with no pictures, few followers and 5,000 follows yet a very large number of these women accept me and are more than happy to have me admire their photos and add to the likes/hearts they get on them. I’m sure it’s a big ego trip for them but it makes me wonder why their accounts are private in the first place?

    I don’t have an Instagram account, but the answer to your puzzled question is pretty clear.

    As I understand it, one of the most important things to be if you’re a 20-something female, is an “Instagram Model”. It’s like being a model, but nobody pays you and you have top take your own photos: the remuneration is by hawking shit that advertisers want selling. (In the same way, being a ‘glamour model’ in the UK is just like being an actual model, except that you get your jubblies out).

    The reason that these women have their accounts set to ‘private’ is marketing – creating a false sense of exclusivity; if you’re ‘accepted’ by them, you’re some sort of ‘VIP’ (you might struggle to believe that, but it’s an important thing for low-status people). Plus: if there is any sort of email verification to accept having been brought into the Special Place, it’s a terrific vector for phishing.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  162. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    ***Prospective employers giving up the use of a degree as a screening mechanism for millions of jobs that don’t require degrees.

    It’s that second one that’s the real sticker. After Griggs vs Duke power, employers want to play it safe by requiring degrees for all kinds of jobs so they don’t get sued for disparate impact.

    Employers who only consider people with college degrees should pay a fee based on the employee’s salary going to fund higher education. Put another way, the minimum wage should be higher for positions requiring higher levels of education, therefore creating an economic incentive not to require arbitrary levels of education.

    • Replies: @Mr. Blank
  163. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @L Woods

    You still need “charm”

    You’ve either got, or you haven’t got charm;
    ….got, or you haven’t got charm.
    Style and charm seem to go arm in arm;
    ….seem to go arm in arm.
    A flower’s not a flower if it’s wilted;
    A hat’s not a hat till it’s tilted.

  164. @Joe Schmoe

    strikes me as a bit silly to say that arranged marriages lead to some kind of selection for being charmless. Modern dating culture is not how charm evolved. If you’re getting a good arranged match it means your family has moved well in the world and charmed their way up the status hierarchy. Social skills are way more basic and foundational to human success than just 18 year old boys chatting up 18 year old girls.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  165. black sea says:

    For most women between the ages of 15 and 45 (roughly), the idea that a man couldn’t be interested enough to bother to go to bed with her is deeply wounding and for some, enraging. Even handsome, accomplished men can accept the fact that some significant percentage of women won’t find them charming or attractive enough to do the deed; but for women, this is a very bitter pill to swallow.

    To the extent that apps like Tinder confront some women with this reality — in the sense that they express an unconcealed interest in a man who fails to reciprocate — the consequences are bound to be emotionally disruptive. As T. S. Eliot said, “humankind can not bear very much reality.”

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  166. Mr. Blank says:
    @Jason y

    As a fairly average-looking guy, reading about the rise of Tinder has made me feel much, much better about being happily married. You might think it would be the opposite, but it’s not. I have no illusions about how I would probably fare on Tinder.

    I wonder, though, about what women must think. I mean, I assume women who use dating sites have always been hip to this — back in the day, I remember listening to very average-looking women complain about all the attention they got on dating sites — but Tinder apparently puts the issue in very stark relief. Tinder doesn’t tell men anything they don’t already know, but it appears to make vivid a truth which women are otherwise very good at concealing from themselves — namely, that any mildly attractive woman can get a neverending stream of pump-and-dumps from highly attractive men, but that it’s damn near impossible to convert one of those pumps into a secure long-term relationship, even if you’re sizzling hot.

    It must suck to be reminded of that in such a strong and undeniable way.

  167. @Kratoklastes

    we have no offspring and no plans to have any

    Then what’s the point? I mean, yeah, it’s comfortable having someone to cook for you, but is it that big a deal?

    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
  168. @Steve Sailer

    What are you guys talking about? Going to the site I get to choose to sign up or sign in. I opted for closing the page. Where’s the octopus-armed lady or whatever it is?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  169. jim jones says:

    If women are hypergamous then men simply need to concentrate on increasing their status with other men.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    , @notanon
  170. Mr. Blank says:
    @Anonymous

    My understanding is that it’s possible to screen applicants with methods other than a college degree, but it’s tough. I believe the consumer products company Johnson & Johnson uses tests to screen for at least some positions, but they’ve also paid zillions of dollars to defend the practice,

  171. Mr. Blank said: namely, that any mildly attractive woman can get a neverending stream of pump-and-dumps from highly attractive men, but that it’s damn near impossible to convert one of those pumps into a secure long-term relationship, even if you’re sizzling hot.

    My grandmother could have told you this. No wonder women are going crazy. They’re not even worth $50 (or whatever the going rate for working girls is) from their Tinder “dates.” Sailer is right: this is gay male sex applied to men and women, with savage results.

    • Replies: @notanon
  172. @27 year old

    This. Tinder (created by and for men) digitally leverages female confusion about sex vs. commitment. Tinder naifs think they are getting male interest in Who They Are, when in reality they are just getting screened for rapid deployment.

    The developers have an interest in preserving (with women) the Tinder-leads-to-LTRs myth, even though that myth exacerbates female confusion about “I can get hot guys’ attention on Tinder, so I can probably get commitment when I feel like it.”

    Characteristically, the “female friendly” version of Tinder, Bumble, doesn’t actually resolve the conundrum for women, it just puts a more female-friendly face on it. In other words, the female developers of Bumble don’t actually reset things to favor women, they just extend and soften the framework created by and for men.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @L Woods
  173. @Pericles

    They find you unattractive because you’re so guileless as to take what they say at face value.

  174. @jim jones

    Necessary (for accomplishing anything worthwhile) but insufficient.

  175. @Steve Sailer

    That hardly strikes me as the most bizarre thing on their homepage.

  176. @notanon

    I’m no fan of banksters, but I don’t see how the blame for this lies at their feet.

    Otherwise, I largely agree.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    , @notanon
  177. @J.Ross

    This is just playing (or, preferably, being) hard to get in graphical form. Women who are hard to get are more attractive to men due to lessened cuckoldry risk.

  178. @Abelard Lindsey

    As someone moderately skeptical of injecting bio-chem cocktails into infants, I’m open to this line of reasoning.

    But … I thought mercury poisoning was more like rashes/decrepitness than like obesity/tantruming.

    Anyhow, that there might be unforeseen consequences to mass compulsory exposure of children to alien biochem seems entirely plausible.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  179. notanon says:
    @jim jones

    that leads to the dog eat dog world we are sliding into and is no solution for the 80% of men who’d lose that competition (and on balance not that great for the majority of the lucky 20% either as in a decent society they’d still get the Staceys and they wouldn’t have to live in walled compound surrounded by favela)

    much better if all the “beta providers” gang up on the banking mafia and change things back to the way it was i.e. a society that puts affordable family formation as the number two policy goal after security i.e. a middle class rather than plantation economy.

    (also are women hypergamous in all contexts? they are at the moment for sure but imo this has changed since i was a teen and may be due to the middle class shrinking and women competing for a place on the life boats)

  180. @Irish Paleo

    You’ve lost the plot – the purpose of sex.

  181. @Almost Missouri

    She’s having a mental rash in the video.

  182. notanon says:
    @Red Pill Angel

    My grandmother could have told you this. No wonder women are going crazy.

    young women listened to Cosmopolitan instead of their grandmothers.

  183. @Almost Missouri

    One could do worse than heeding the great books, both for men and otherwise.

  184. notanon says:
    @Almost Missouri

    it depends on who or what you blame for the shrinking middle class

    i blame the combination of mass immigration, offshoring and parasitic money lending on one hand (banking mafia) and various aspects of cultural Marxism on the other.

    (although in a way the underlying cause is technology i.e. it becoming possible to ship jobs to where labor was cheapest and easier to import millions of people to drive down wages in the jobs that couldn’t be off shored)

    • Agree: Autochthon
  185. @Rosie

    I am not wedded to my previous claim. Maybe I’m wrong. However, I’d like to suggest that in a survey like this, the devil is in the details. I wonder what would happen, for example, if we took all the men who were rated highly by some woman and ran their faces through a computer program that made comparisons based on feature measurements. My guess is that there would be more similarity than what was apparent to observers and more similarity among all those faces than between those faces and ones that were not rated highly.

    I only read the abstract so I don’t how the rating system was done, but I suspect you also might get very different results if you asked men Yes/No vs a 10 point scale.

    Anyway, as I said, maybe Iwas wrong.

  186. @Jay Fink

    Thanks for the warning. Now I know I won’t let my teen daughter get an Instagram account.

    BTW, does your self-acknowledged creepiness affect the way you behave, or is it all virtual?

    Finally, find a real girlfriend!

  187. @Joe Schmoe

    North Indians (and Pakistanis) are ‘creepier’ than South Indians. The Arab attitude is similar. It may all be from rape-and-pillage Indo-Europeans.

  188. Pericles says:
    @Kratoklastes

    As I understand it, one of the most important things to be if you’re a 20-something female, is an “Instagram Model”. It’s like being a model, but nobody pays you and you have top take your own photos: the remuneration is by hawking shit that advertisers want selling.

    The instagram hawker-thot can get a nice payout though. One Swedish example appears to charge 150-200,000 SEK for one posed picture (that’s something like $20-25,000). The example is hypothetically changing tyres dressed like a mechanic in a nice Stockholm suburb, so a bit of a hassle but not hardship pay.

    Source (in Swedish, I’m afraid): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRPSpvD12s4
    Exaggerated? Well, who knows.

    Here’s her instagram btw: https://www.instagram.com/biancaingrosso/
    Less than 1M followers, but she also is on a Kardashian-like reality show with her well-known mother and grandmother with long careers in entertainment.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  189. Pericles says:
    @Pericles

    Here’s what the instagram top earners charged in 2017 (presumably only ‘sponsored posts’, i.e., ads):

    Selena Gomez – 122 million followers – $550,000 per post
    Kim Kardashian – 100 million followers – $500,000 per post
    Cristiano Ronaldo – 104 million followers – $400,000 per post
    Kylie Jenner – 95 million followers – $400,000 per post
    Kendall Jenner – 81.7 million followers – $370,000 per post
    Khloe Kardashian – 68 million followers – $250,000 per post
    Kourtney Kardashian – 57.8 million followers – $250,000 per post
    Cara Delevingne – 40.4 million followers – $150,000 per post
    Gigi Hadid 34.7 million followers – $120,000 per post
    Lebron James – 30.7 million followers – $120,000 per post

    Methodology: murky. But here is the link.

    https://www.hopperhq.com/blog/instagram-rich-list-2017-platforms-highest-earners-revealed/

  190. Anonymous[345] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Let me say that I have never been on Tinder and never will be on Tinder,

    Why not?

  191. Anonymous[345] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dansereau3

    A few years ago when Tinder came out, I decided I would make it “straight Grindr.”

    What are some of the experiences you had? What kind of dissatisfaction did you encounter in the women you met?

  192. TheJester says:

    iSteve,

    Correlating Tinder with the liberal female psychological meltdown that started around 2013 is worth a few extrapolations.

    My experience in the university in the 1960s was is that Stage 2 Feminism road the slipstream of the black male-centric Civil Rights Movement. The axiom on the part of white females was, “No damn nigger man is going to get social and economic equality with white males before I do!” This was especially hideous to Jewish women.

    Hence, to accommodate the times, white females en masse adopted the black paradigm of a victim mentality. If black males were victims of white male racism, white women were victims of white male sexism. THEY, rather than black males, deserved the first shot at Affirmative Action jobs and a general reordering society to promote their interests … really another form of serial reparations with gargantuan social consequences given that females constituted more than 50% of the population. Minority oppression, right?

    Feminists have continued their tradition of riding in the slipstream of male social movements. Now, feminists are adopting the social values and attributes of the white male-centric Homosexual Rights Movement. The order of the day is equality and power based on sexual promiscuity characterized by anonymous and impersonal sex. Grinder –> Tender and the explicit exhibition of white female freedom from the White Male Patriarchy through reckless promiscuity. Others describe this as women riding the “Cock Carousel”. They also call this Third Wave Feminism.

    However, women experienced an undesirable side effect. Women started dating strangers they had never met before based on lies both of posted on the Internet. No female in her right mind would have done this prior to the 1960s; they would have to deal with the reputation of being sluts who operated without fear of risks and consequences … perhaps they were even cultivating “rape fantasies”. However, this has been the dating standard through most of the last decade.

    A prognosis: Feminists, riding the slipstream of the black male Civil Rights Movement and the white male Homosexual Rights Movement, have created and nurtured a “rape” culture, which is what happens when homosexual culture collides with heterosexual family formation. Now, women protest. They advocate a radical return to Victorian social standards DEMANDING that all men show a gentlemanly concern for the power differentials and female emotional sensitivities, even to the point of REQUIRING drunken frat boys delivering drunken sorority girl back to their residences before the girls hazard their virginity and self-respect. Chaperones used to provide this highly curated service.

    Welcome to Stage 4 Feminism … a radical amalgamation of a Christian view of family formation, the victimology of the black Civil Rights Movement, and the deviant sexual promiscuity of the Homosexual Rights Movement. If this doesn’t earn women a badge for cognitive dissonance … or a record for comorbid personality disorders listed in the DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders), nothing will.

    Below is an exhibition of this Feminist Stage Four cognitive dissonance in what used to be called Great Britain. Now, the country appears to be nothing more than a collection of comorbid personality disorders in desperate search of an integrated solution for something that has no solution:

    The BBC will introduce more LGBT characters in its programming and encourage staff to use “non-binary” pronouns, in an effort to combat “heteronormative” culture which has “baffled” many (gay and straight) on social media.

    It’s all part of a new set of “diversity” reforms at the public broadcaster. The new portrayals of LGBT characters will be “incidental” — which means that their sexuality will not be the focus of the storyline or news item.

    But it’s not just an on-screen effort. Off-air, LGBT staff will be encouraged to “bring their whole self to work” and be open about their sexuality with their co-workers — something which sounded a bit “creepy” and weird to some who reacted to the news on Twitter. Others found it contradictory that sexuality would be “incidental” on-air, but something to be discussed at work off-air.

    https://www.rt.com/uk/441317-bbc-combat-heteronormative-culture/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome

  193. Anonymous[345] • Disclaimer says:
    @SimplePseudonymicHandle

    but I didn’t read Hobbes and I don’t know anything about the English Civil War or the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution

    What would Hobbes have taught this person? What is the lesson of the English Civil War?

  194. Anonymous[345] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    After all, one of the elements in the way the game is played is the man makes his interest clear without being tedious about it. Then it’s ‘we’ll see.’ Typically, a woman signals her interest only as the last step before consummation.

    Could you give some concrete examples?

  195. Anonymous[345] • Disclaimer says:
    @TelfoedJohn

    Men and women don’t learn the unspoken rules of interaction,

    What are the main unspoken rules of interaction?

  196. Anomymous says:
    @Chrisnonymous

    Obviously, nowadays, Harvard/Yale are doing damage, but that’s the fault of individuals, not of the structure of higher education.

    “Obviously”? What damage are they doing?

    What is the advantage to collecting the minds to such a degree anyways?

  197. L Woods says:
    @Almost Missouri

    Bumble’s “women go first” gimmick is the biggest nothing burger. It changes next to nothing. All they do is say something characteristically brainless like “hi;” the burden is still completely on the man to concoct a ‘clever’ opener and carry the conversation.

  198. @Bitfu

    Its because the new “source of truth” – like the shamans of yore, it tells you exactly what you want to hear, with the dull finality of holiness.

  199. @anonymouse

    Arranged matches well into the 18th century could be jeopardized if the prospective betrothed behaved badly enough.

  200. @black sea

    For most women between the ages of 15 and 45 (roughly), the idea that a man couldn’t be interested enough to bother to go to bed with her is deeply wounding and for some, enraging.

    ?!!

    On the contrary. Most girls by the age of 15 have had a serious crush at least once, and while they might have dates or just get hit on by all sorts of guys who don’t interest them as much, the object of their affection may not return it. Few girls have a 100% success rate.

    • Replies: @black sea
  201. @War for Blair Mountain

    You might deserve the Nobel Prize but repeated extended ellipses break up the flow of written material and make it more difficult to read.

  202. @Chrisnonymous

    I think you’re right. A man who looks exactly like a Greek statue or Michelangelo’s David would still be considered handsome (except for the teeny peeny) but women’s beauty ideals seem very flexible worldwide and through the ages, youth being the one immutable standard. Current uniformity seems imposed by modern media, not that supermodels aren’t pretty, but why so tall?

  203. @Lot

    You just made predictions and now you’re autistically claiming you made none.

    You’re a mess.

  204. @Colin Wright

    The old system (used at reenactment balls) is you smile at a man, and then he asks you to dance.

  205. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    Rather than being caused by gay culture, it’s probably more accurate to say that both Grindr and Tinder, along with other things like pornography, are part of the broader sterile, asexual culture which simulates genuine sexuality.

    I guess it’s what happens when you turn sex into a consumer good.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  206. @dfordoom

    What came first, 2nd-wave feminism or Playboy? Is the rash of career women related to a previous generation’s being dumped when a financially successful husband wanted a trophy wife, and Playboy told him he was entitled to Have Fun? Do women have some justice in fearing to barter housework and childcare for a dubious security?

    The push to make male-female relations a recreational thing instead of one of the bases of Western Civilization has had destructive effects on both men and women.

    Would there be a Cosmo if there hadn’t been a Playboy?

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @Desiderius
    , @notanon
  207. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Pericles

    Maybe arranged marriages wasn’t such a bad idea after all.

    I agree but don’t let Rosie hear you say that.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  208. Anonymous[235] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kratoklastes

    Could you tell us more about how you approached the “taking” of these courses? How much time did you spend on them? What did you spend that time doing? Did you stick to a schedule? How did you incentivize yourself to study and learn (versus simply watch the lectures)? How did you even incentivize yourself to watch the lectures given competing demands from life? Did you take the exams? Did you receive credit?

    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
  209. @dfordoom

    Didn’t work out so well fictionally in Romeo and Juliet, Julie or the New Heloise, Princess of Cleves, Clarissa, or most of Boccaccio’s stories. Fiction often reflects real-life concerns.

    Didn’t work much better historically for Marie Antoinette, Alfonso II d’Este, or anybody who got stuck with Henry VIII. One of the Paston girls evaded marriage to a 50-something man whose financial situation wasn’t even secure, but only after getting beat up by her parents several times a day.

    On the other hand, there’s a medieval Italian story about a girl from a commoner’s family who sees the king from a window, falls in love with him, and begins to waste away. When the king hears about it, instead of either taking her as his mistress or shrugging it off as a joke, he visits the girl, tells her that her father is afraid she will die, and that if she wants to please the king as his obedient subject, she will marry a man he will choose for her. The king arranges a good marriage for her, and presumably, she outgrows whatever hormonal insanity she is suffering when she has children.

  210. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosamond Vincy

    What came first, 2nd-wave feminism or Playboy? Is the rash of career women related to a previous generation’s being dumped when a financially successful husband wanted a trophy wife, and Playboy told him he was entitled to Have Fun? Do women have some justice in fearing to barter housework and childcare for a dubious security?

    The push to make male-female relations a recreational thing instead of one of the bases of Western Civilization has had destructive effects on both men and women.

    2nd-wave feminism and Playboy are symptoms of the same disease. Capitalism combined with the collapse of religion means the destruction of family life. Everything is reduced to materialism, to money, to short-term pleasure.

  211. @Saxon

    Not much I’d wager.

    Name your bet.

    I’ve read too much on this topic. It did pay off in a family better than what I thought possible when I started. The key thing to understand however is that it’s called sexual market dynamics, not statics. It has changed significantly since much of what you and I have read was written, in response to those writings and other environmental changes.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  212. @Rosamond Vincy

    I think Hugh Hefner was on the spectrum.

  213. black sea says:
    @Rosamond Vincy

    Rosamond,

    I’m not talking about a man who declines to enter into a relationship with them; I’m talking about a man who turns down a more-or-less unvarnished offer of sex, because it’s just not enticing enough to be worth his time or trouble, or the prospective risk involved.

    I think most women take that pretty hard. In fact, they take a man declining to enter into a relationship with them pretty hard. But a rejection of sex itself . . . that’s a Cold Shot, as Stevie Ray Vaughan used to say.

    When a man is posting on Tinder, he can’t offer up the consoling excuse of, “I’m already in a relationship,” “I just want to be friends.” People — I assume — don’t post on Tinder in search of “friends.”

  214. @WHAT

    “This article made me physically ill, thank you very much. “

    I presume it was the comments – I was impressed by many of them telling her to pull herself together, citing world population increase as a good reason not to reproduce, and extolling the many benefits (or many cats) of the “child-free” life.

    If you want to see real tragedy, some admittedly self-inflicted, try this. Along with the carousel-riders who marry at 38 there are poor teenagers who’ve had hysterectomies at 18 and feel like their lives are effectively over.

    https://gateway-women.com/will-i-ever-get-over-not-having-children

  215. notanon says:
    @Rosamond Vincy

    male libertines are among the biggest supporters of feminism

  216. Anonymous[169] • Disclaimer says:
    @Desiderius

    I’ve read too much on this topic. It did pay off in a family better than what I thought possible when I started.

    What all did you read? What lessons do you think helped you to eventually form a family?

  217. @Desiderius

    Said Saxon:

    It’s largely hard dysgenics

    Agreed. The only families who can have as many children as they want are the UMC, and those who have all their bills paid by welfare. The latter are much more numerous than the former. Middle-class families often cannot afford to have two children if they want to pay their own way.

    At least those third world peasants are capable of an erection.

    The third-world peasants are no more capable of an erection than the native middle classes. The difference is that they have not been indoctrinated with PC: at the extremes, they have a greater propensity to rape than natives. The majority are obviously not rapists, but they have a greater willingness to approach women for sex, and to treat them as disposable. There will never be a “MeToo” campaign against these guys, because they do not have anything their ex-partners want to take; and in 40 years’ time they will still not have anything their ex-partners will want to take.

    There are several reasons why third-world immigrants have more children than natives: one reason is that, whatever they do, they will have a higher standard of living than their parents had, back in their impoverished home country. For most of us who were born in a developed country, the dream of generational economic advancement is just that – a dream.

    And, of course, third-world immigration is dysgenic – most of the people who want to come here have lower IQs. Their countries are poor because they are socially dysfunctional, and importing that dysfunctionality is not a good idea.

  218. @reiner Tor

    Then what’s the point? I mean, yeah, it’s comfortable having someone to cook for you, but is it that big a deal?

    Offspring are wildly over-rated, whereas having someone who periodically ‘organises’ shit in such a way that you can’t find it (and nor can they) keeps one on one’s toes.

    The Lovely cooks maybe once a week (I like to cook, and I think even The Lovely would agree I’m better at it).

    Comparative advantage and division of labour is where it’s at: she pulls in the big bucks (seriously big bucks), and I potter around trying to look busy.

    To make you even more bewildered… we sleep in separate rooms (I snore, and she’s a light sleeper) and have done for all of the 25-odd years we’ve been a couple.

    We spend more time arguing about nonsense[1] than most people would spend having sex, and we probably get more out of an argument[2].

    I know, right?

    Long story short: the preferences (and objectives) of the cognitive élite are vastly different from the median, and compared to the Breeding Deltas we may as well be a different species (albeit a species that is doomed to extinction – as if that matters: individuals have interests; species don’t).

    [1] “Nonsense” is things like
    ① whether De Quincy is better than Fielding (or Thackeray);
    ② whether the Grundnorm for the Australian Constitution [any Constitution, really) is morally defensible;
    ③ whether politicians should be killed first and then burnt, or vice versa;
    ④ whether Oasis is 'just' a Beatles ripoff band or something more consequential.

    [2] As Chesterfield once quipped about sex: “the pleasure is momentary, the position ridiculous, and the expense damnable”.

    Interdum stultus opportuna loquitur, Chesterfield old egg. Sometimes by chance a fool speaks [correctly]. (That quotation tells you where I stand on the Fielding vs de Quincy debate, even though I liked “Confessions of an English Opium Eater“).

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    , @dfordoom
  219. @Kratoklastes

    I like Oasis, but of course whichever Gallagher brother it was openly announced he’s channeling John Lennon. Not “Hard Day’s Night” or “I Wanna Hold Your Hand” Lennon unfortunately: whiny, late-career solo Lennon.

  220. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Kratoklastes

    Offspring are wildly over-rated

    I’m not sure how exactly you’d know that if you don’t have any.

    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
  221. @dfordoom

    I’m not sure how exactly you’d know that if you don’t have any.

    It’s pretty straightforward: inference based on evidence.

    In the same way, I can say with a high degree of certainty that regular use of methamphetamine is a terrible idea – but I’ve never used methamphetamine.

    I have a brace of nephews (and two nieces) ranging in age from the mid-20s down to a couple of years old. If any of them were my kid, the disappointments would outweigh the upside by (roughly) 50 to 1… and these aren’t ‘bad’ kids by any stretch.

    Fortunately I’ve had colleagues who were honest about the issue: people who, while supporting and loving their children, were prepared to acknowledge that their lives would be easier and happier if they hadn’t had kids. (Economists, econometricians and economic modellers do tend to have a utilitarian frame of reference, and the ability to abstract themselves out of the situation under consideration).

    Some people talk as if splurting out a live offspring is emotionally transformational (those people are just fucking deluded – human reproduction is not an achievement, and the resultant meatbags are very seldom special).

    If splurting out a kid does generate some form of irrational attachment to it, I would avoid participating in the splurt to the extent possible because irrational attachments are utility-destroying (because they ensure that you form biased expectations, which means you make bad decisions).

    Example: my younger brother’s ex-wife has imbibed the irrational “women’s magazine” idea that her children are special. They’re not, as their scholastic results (and their behaviour) show. She insists on sending her sub-median kids to private school, which my brother has to pay for. That is a waste of resources, since any kid who finishes high-school below the median has wasted every resource spent on their education (and as such, the smaller the number of dollars expended, the better).

    I am certain there are people whose children’s performance exceeds expectations in ways that outperform a coin toss (i.e., who have more than half of their children exceeding expectations). However I know that’s not true for my parents; it’s not true for The Lovely‘s parents; it’s not true for my siblings (qua parents); it’s not true for the extended families of my siblings’ partners.

    Look around you in any mall, and try to convince yourself that the waddling retards you observe are an ‘upside surprise’ relative to what their parents imagined on the day they were born.

  222. @Anonymous

    Hey there Anonymous.

    Taking each dot point in turn:

    How much time did you spend on them?

    That varied by subject: the Chicago “Asset Pricing” course was particularly arduous (especially the ’0′th week, which was a revision of Stochastic Calculus, which I hadn’t even looked at for two decades). I spent about 4 hours a week on that one.

    Conversely, the Wharton stuff (Financial Engineering & Risk Management I and II) was trivial: I watched the videos on 1.2× speed, and did the assessment tasks super-quick (they were in Excel FFS).

    Cryptography was about halfway – a couple of hours a week. That’s a great course.

    What did you spend that time doing?

    Watched the lectures; read any supplementary material required; did the quizzes – the usual. Sometimes (like week 0 in Asset Pricing) I went away and found some problems sets from other institutions and did those.

    Did you stick to a schedule?

    Yep – usually one subject per evening (time that I otherwise would have spent watching TV or being controversial on the internet).

    How did you incentivize yourself to study and learn (versus simply watch the lectures)?

    To be honest, I have absolutely no idea: I have a competitive streak at times, but that’s not the main driver.

    (A few subjects were just to refresh stuff that I already had significant training in – so they were kinda tedious).

    How did you even incentivize yourself to watch the lectures given competing demands from life?

    I have a mindbogglingly simple life. I’m quite the misanthrope, so I don’t socialise much (maybe once a fortnight). Of the four hours between getting home and going to bed, it’s easy for me to find 90 minutes (usually time otherwise spent wastefully – watching TV).

    Upside of no kids – hahaha.

    Did you take the exams?

    Absolutely. I love exams (particularly in quantitative subjects).

    Sadly, I screwed the pooch on the “Asset Pricing” and “Game Theory – Advanced Applications” exams – I had a hard deadline on a consulting project of work, so didn’t prepare properly and shat the bed.

    Did you receive credit?

    Yep. (Page 2 looks similar) – I forget if this will embed the image properly, but you can click through…

  223. @Kratoklastes

    Maybe she sends them to private school so they won’t be dragged down any farther by the public school system.

    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
  224. @Rosamond Vincy

    Maybe she sends them to private school so they won’t be dragged down any farther by the public school system.

    That’s a possibility, but it’s unlikely because the empirical evidence (across the two ‘sides’) indicates that’s the wrong answer – this has been laid out in all its gory detail in the past.

    Most of her family went to (Catholic) private school, and they’re all just schlubs (i.e., everybody works in sub-managerial roles, which means that they earn below the top quartile – these are people in their 40s who still work as nightfill at supermarkets).

    By contrast, all of my family (and The Lovely) went to government schools, and out of 5 kiddies + 1 (The Lovely) we’ve got one barrister, one senior adviser to a Prime Minister, one senior defence bureaucrat, one quant analyst, one logistics manager, and one PADI scuba instructor… and no household with after-tax earnings below the cutoff for the top 5%.

    If we were comparing two arbitrary families, there would be no inference to be drawn – it just so happens that one family gets no use out of private education, and two families (mine and The Lovely‘s) shot the lights out. But these two families are not arbitrary – they’re the genetic and environmental bases for the kids (and since the split, more her family’s environment than ours).
    .

    What follows sounds cold, but I firmly believe in the old Greek aphorism:

    τὰ σῦκα σῦκα, τὴν σκάφην σκάφην λέγειν (“call figs figs, and a tub a tub” – i.e., say what you intend [1]).

    If my brother’s ex could do basic RoI calculations, she would be able to verify that the money spunked away on private school (~8k per kid per year for 12 years) requires a significant post-education earnings premium in order to have a positive NPV (looking upon it as a project that has to compete with ‘put the money in the bank‘ – or in their case, “Don’t borrow money to fund this“… either way, the return has to be in excess of interest foregone/paid).

    The best guess at the salary improvement obtained by a sub-median private high-school graduate (in the modern context) … well, that’s zero. Sub-median high school ‘graduates’ are the refuse of the education system, and they get no premium regardless of the school they attended.

    And there’s no point in ‘salting’ the analysis by pretending that the kids have untapped potential: these are kids that will not get into university, unless it’s in a course that is ‘open slather’ – and those courses themselves have strongly-negative rates of return.

    But let’s assume that their private schooling adds 10% to their post-high-school prospects. That’s $6k a year (current dollars) for their working life (say, 45 years) – they will earn 10% more than the median high-school-only person.

    Those flows start 12 years after the first fees are paid (and 1 year after the last fees are paid, since these kids won’t go to university).

    Now the NPV of a project depends on the rate at which the investor discounts future cash flows (the ‘discount rate’), of course: it is only for low discount rates that the NPV as described becomes positive.

    So what are the odds that that the mother has a low discount rate?

    Well, these are people who buy electronics on credit – so their discount rate is best approximated by the interest rate on credit cards (19%).

    There’s other evidence of short horizons – they also eat mountains of McDonalds (3 or 4 meals a week) and do zero exercise: strong indicators of high discount rates (basically ignoring the long-term).

    [1] Plutarch condenses that to την σκάφην σκάφην λέγοντας “Call a tub a tub” – in Apophthegmata Laconica (Αποφθέγματα Λακωνικά – Sayings of the Spartans, which is part of Moralia)

    Also… Plutarch uses the verb ‘read’ (λέγοντας) – I stuck with that although the variant I learnt used ονομασων – say/speak/intend/call)

  225. @Kratoklastes

    Your spelling and usage indicate you are British. Our US public schools are worse than you can imagine.

  226. @Disordered (with a bad memory)

    You’ve some useful points. Consider the power of the paragraph to communicate them.

  227. @Kratoklastes

    It is truly a tragedy that you of all people are an evolutionary dead end.

    An utter injustice.

    I’m torn up just thinking about it.

  228. @Song For the Deaf

    Mark my words: in fifty years, when more of the neurology and biochemistry are discovered and understood, the idea pornography was ever harmless will be as risible as we now deem the old advertising with physicians touting the benefits of smoking.

  229. @MikeatMikedotMike

    She awoke in the pre-dawn hours to find her arms pinned at her sides and Her having sex with her.

    Will the last person to leave reality please turn off the lights?

  230. @bucky

    I hear he – here, Her – is hung like a Hmong.

  231. @Kratoklastes

    You seem a real asshole who thinks the value of a person is determined by his income and ascribed social status (it suits your British obsession with so-called social classes).

    A child is a joy though he be not a nuclear physicist, and many a genius is impoverished in any event. Hell’s Bells: Orson Welles died hawking shitty wine and frozen foods.

    Is Wesley Autry, a man working construction jobs at fifty (piker!), a disappointment to his parents?

    Still and all, if you want to be spectacularly anal retentive and abstract about it – and you demonstrably do – a child may be a clerk in a supermarket. His child in turn a felon. And so on. Yet, generations into the future a descendent may cure cancer or navigate a vessel to another habitable planet. A child is a joy by his very presence, be he ever so much trouble and effort and ever so unremarkable (by your soulless lights). A child is a joy in life, a comfort in age, and a stake in immortality.

    This quest may be attempted by the weak with as much hope as the strong. Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.

    .

    Do you eat in restaurants? Have a custodian clean your offices? Drive upon paved roads? Walk upon mown lawns? Are the people who provide all these things inferior to you? If you had a son (a good job you don’t, to read your work!), would he be a disappointment if he paved your roads?

    I pity you.

  232. @Anonymous

    It’s interesting – nay, “extra interesting” – to you that females are dissembling and irrational, and that even the best of them hardly ever want what they may tell themselves – maybe even convince themselves – they want?

    Well, okay…welcome to reality; we’re glad you could join us.

  233. @exlib

    To a straight guy dealing with modern women it may seem like that. If you’re young, handsome, and go to the gym you’ll have endless amazing sex with incredibly hot guys with basically zero effort, hell even if you’re average you can have hot sex with no effort, but I wouldn’t call it ‘heaven’. After it while it makes you numb and actually forming a relationship and a home is very hard. Depression is rampant among gay men. There’s a reason we have the highest suicide rate.

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