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Conformity and Cousin Marriage
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Commenter Robert Hume writes:

It has occurred to me that the reason why some groups of Europeans seem to have greater creativity then equally intelligent Asians may be due to their method of finding mates for marriage.

Family arranged marriages, such as in much of Asia and much of the Middle East look for indicators of social approval and success within the current social milieu such as doing well on achievement tests which are socially coupled to success in life.

On the other hand, in historical England for example, the female chooses the male, and, in this case, going back to Darwin, the males may exhibit a broad spectrum of capabilities; some very maladaptive and some extremely adaptive. Those that are extremely adaptive have more children.

I wonder if there is a greater variance in male IQ in historical England than in China.

Leaving aside plain IQ, I suspect that love marriages select for a wider variety of personality types and other traits in offspring than do arranged marriages, with the historic English predilection for young lovers selecting their own mates (e.g., in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet) perhaps leading to the famous English appreciation for individualism and eccentricity.

Back in 2008 I blogged:

… mercantile minorities from West Asia are becoming ever more numerous in SoCal. They tend to be economically successful but, as the philosophy major suggested, a little boring and depressing in the narrow range in which they strive to show off their success: fancy cars, fancy decor, fancy clothes, fancy jewelry.

In contrast, easy as it is make fun of the tastes of the whiterpeople on StuffWhitePeopleLike.com, whiterpeople really do help push the envelope in their struggle for status. If somebody with more money than sense buys a $10,000 high-performance kayak, well, they are helping fund the progress of kayak technology.

Consider quintessential whiterperson Ed Begley Jr., the actor and solar-power buff whom The Simpsons portrayed driving a nonpolluting car powered solely by his “own sense of self-satisfaction.” Yet, as Begley’s neighbor Jerry Pournelle pointed out to me once when we were walking past Begley’s house [I think this was in 2000], the actor’s over-investment in currently economically inefficient solar panels does provide seed capital for companies trying to invent more efficient forms of solar energy.

Anyway, I have a theory about why West Asian materialism runs in such narrow ruts. If you are Ed Begley, you want to impress other people who share your tastes and values, so you socialize primarily with other environmental fanatics who will be impressed that your house is off the power grid. But if you are from a West Asian group, there’s much pressure on you to socialize mostly within your extended family and their in-laws and in-laws’ in-laws. And because extended families are pretty average on average, specialized interests don’t cut much ice. Instead, the common denominators are the surest road to approbation.

You just bought a state-of-the-art kayak? Ho-hum. Sure, your kayak-nut friends will be wowed, but your family? Yawn. In contrast, your cousin Aram just bought the most expensive BMW. Now, that’s something that everybody in the family can be floored by!

I haven’t thought about it too hard, but I think this might explain something about why nuclear family societies have tended to be more creative and dynamic than extended family societies.

A reader in Turkey comments:



BTW Steve, I think one of your commentors is right on the money when he says that intra-extended-family status fight probably cannot reach the same intensity as the inter-individual status competition in the West because the status positions are more or less fixed within extended families; that extended families follow their investment patterns to compete in status with other extended families. This is very true (from personal experience).

Which kinda takes us back to the first square that for individualistic (whiterpeople, or whiter-than-thou) status fights to emerge, we need a very homogenous, national demography so that extended-family competition subsides or doesn’t yield as much status as it does in mixed-ethny environments. (Looking into this “inflection point” may yield something: when does extended-family competition in an ethnically homogenous environment reach the point of diminishing returns?)

 
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  1. What will be the effect of the increasing levels of assortative mating on these characteristics of European-origin people? My guess is that it’ll start to resemble the extended family status competition, since the people engaging in assortative mating tend to see status symbols the same way, but does anyone else have some thoughts?

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I think assortative mating might not be increasing, after all. I think Greg Clark for example thinks it isn't. At the very least the jury is out.
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  2. HI says:

    My pet theory on status-signaling is about rule of law (or absence thereof). In cultures where a different set of laws applies to the rich, it’s of vital practical importance to signal status. It might save your life when dealing with potential threats or law enforcement. Driving a fancy car in Helsinki or San Francisco won’t make other drivers or cops treat you very differently, but in Moscow or Bombay it will. So what on the surface looks like pure ego might in fact be rooted in practical considerations.

    Read More
    • Replies: @snorlax
    A modified version of this is also true in America. Increasingly we have two life tracks: one with good-paying jobs, stable marriages, happy retirement etc (I'm lucky enough to be on this one, for now, though many members of my extended family aren't), and another one, with OxyContin and child support (unpaid).

    To maintain one's position on the first track (or at least to reassure yourself it's secure), you need to be constantly signaling your education, intelligence, good taste, fashionableness and so on. Thus all the partially-subconscious, partially-calculated keep-up-with-the-Joneses pseudo-individuality, like when everyone buys an expensive kayak.
    , @Ivy
    Fancy cars are a dime a dozen around LA, given local tendencies toward conspicuous consumption, but that doesn't stop some drivers from their German Sedan or English SUV righteousness. Spend enough time on streets and freeways here and you will observe some peculiar aggressiveness and douche-signaling. ("I drive an S-Class, so I'm cutting in line", etc).

    A fair amount of that seems to be demonstrated by what were once nouveau riche and are now just manifesting anxiety about their fairly new station in life. They seem more likely to have various DSM-V prescriptions. Noticing the archetypes can make things easier.
  3. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Diversity Heretic
    What will be the effect of the increasing levels of assortative mating on these characteristics of European-origin people? My guess is that it'll start to resemble the extended family status competition, since the people engaging in assortative mating tend to see status symbols the same way, but does anyone else have some thoughts?

    I think assortative mating might not be increasing, after all. I think Greg Clark for example thinks it isn’t. At the very least the jury is out.

    Read More
  4. KM32 says:

    I don’t know very many Iranians or Turks, but the Asian Americans I know of Chinese or Indian extraction seem as SWPL as they come within a single generation. It’s only the first generation types who behave this way. Same goes for a (Coptic) Egyptian woman I knew who grew up in the Midwest. Her interests (theater, indie bands, social justice nonsense) are identical to those of a white American.

    OT, I remember having a discussion with her once where she talked about how her family had to flee Egypt because of violent attacks on her Coptic community. Yet on Facebook she’s always posting pro-refugee stuff. Bizarre.

    OT #2 – What does it take to get trusted commenter status so that my posts appear immediately? I’ve been reading and posting here for years, yet they’re always held up for moderation, sometimes for hours.

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    • Replies: @Altai
    I remember talking with an American born Chinese guy from New York, I was shocked that he was a classic SWPL. I expected a classic stereotype given he was only second generation. When I asked what he did for a living and found out he was a social worker (In New York! Not the nicest place for a nice polite Asian guy to be acting as a social worker.). I mentioned how much Irish people romanticise New York, without missing a beat he said "Because of all the diversity?" (He wasn't being ironic) He also noted with personal approval and as his first comment on the city, how many immigrants there were in Dublin. (It never occurred to him that somebody whose own culture and ethnicity was being necessarily pushed aside in it's only big city might have a different view)

    The entire culture pushes a clear ideal of what is a safe perspective, why would anyone expect upwardly mobile or conscientious, people regardless of their parents cultural perspective, to not inhale all of it. A lot of them seem to be aware, though, of their own or others potential ethnocentrism and seem to need to believe in it, but deep down they are fearful and maybe guilty about what is happening and a white backlash.

    Having said that at the same job I also ran into a pair of really SWPL hipsters from New England and mentioned how that seemed appropriate since the way they were dressed reminded me of Amanda Palmer and that region seems to have a distinct youth culture, the girlfriend laughed and mentioned how the boyfriend grew up with Palmer, he didn't seem that impressed with her (For the record, I actually love the Dresden Dolls and Palmer, I don't look to entertainers for political leadership) despite his appearance, he seemed to be trending towards becoming a shitlord, (I think it was about her defence of the younger brother in the Boston bombings) there is hope!

    , @donut
    "OT #2 – What does it take to get trusted commenter status so that my posts appear immediately? I’ve been reading and posting here for years, yet they’re always held up for moderation, sometimes for hours." Yeah , me too . LOL.
    , @snorlax

    OT #2 – What does it take to get trusted commenter status so that my posts appear immediately? I’ve been reading and posting here for years, yet they’re always held up for moderation, sometimes for hours.
     
    The tl:dr is at Steve's whim, the long answer is one of two ways:

    • Be a long-time active commenter and don't break Steve's unwritten rules (before achieving trusted commenter status I never had one that wasn't approved, so I don't know exactly, but I believe it's no n-word, no death threats, no porno links). I believe you're more likely to get it if you post stuff he finds interesting, you're polite to other commenters and you don't often use foul language (especially strong ethnic slurs).

    • He usually gives you it if you donate to him. (So I've heard; he gave me trusted status before I became a donor).
    , @27 year old
    Sending Steve money couldn't hurt your chances
    , @unpc downunder
    Being into indie bands or social justice politics are low investment hobbies that any urban liberal can get into.

    The big difference between whites and non-whites is that a far higher proportion of whites are engaged in hobbies that require a lot of time and effort. It's rare for Asians to restore classic cars, scratch built model vehicles or organise pet shows, but pretty common for whites to engage in such hobbies.

    And even when Asians engage in similar hobbies to whites they tend to do so in a less involved way. For example, in Australia and New Zealand a lot East Asians like to go fishing by plonking a line or crab pot off the end of a wharf, but you rarely see an East Asian immigrant fly fishing in the mountains.

    , @bored identity
    Two Words:

    "Panhandling Effect."


    It's quite similar to Butterfly Effect, but this one works in moderatedly- whim sical way:

    "Every dollar that you have foolishly wasted on your brand new, by the unicorn tears coated, Nordstrom kayak creates budgetary black hole in some two thousand square feet big multidimensional portal in Sherman Oaks , Ca."

    By every single swing of your platinum-plastic, pocket winglet, you, my friend, are creating The Chaos...

    Domesticly made and out of warranty dishwashers, handowner's hastily installed garage door openers, questionable 80's color palette window dressings, crookedly chatty chandeliers, gargantually loud garbage dispensers, little brave toasters ( or any other kitchen small appliances ), double-cross-dressing Hoovers, and mid- sized Japanese conceived automotive companions are first to be affected by this misterious force.

    Not to mention a shiny, artsy-fartsy chrome door knobs

    People even get divorced over such sh*t!

    https://youtu.be/IBm6ld4wpGY

    Some well-seasoned, and well-reasoned
    members of the commentariat would from time to time deepthrow newcomer about 7 Ancient Ways to prevent Curse of Panhandling Effect:

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/leaning-precipitously/

  5. G Pinfold says:

    Sometims a flaw can be a feature. Families, like schools (old school schools) know who the natural leaders are. I’m guessing future president Zuckerberg, for all his subsequent achievements, was not Head Boy of his High School. The school did not miss an opportunity, or make a mistake. Far from it. The school correctly gauged Zuckerberg as a social climber with little to offer his community.

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  6. Lysander says:

    “…in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet.”

    What? You were supposed to recognize that Juliet was wrong to fall in love with Romeo (who, at the beginning, was equally “in love” with Rosaline, and despondent because he can’t have her.)

    I am totally at a loss as to how you’ve come to the conclusion that the modern form of marriage – chiefly, fall in love, get married, get divorced when you’re no longer “in love” – extends back through Western history. Lack of travel restricted one’s pool of possible mates, and “what will the family think” was every bit as important.

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    • Replies: @Richard

    “…in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet.”

    What? You were supposed to recognize that Juliet was wrong to fall in love with Romeo (who, at the beginning, was equally “in love” with Rosaline, and despondent because he can’t have her.)
     
    That's a reading you're bringing to the play out of your own biases. Following the deaths of the pair, Juliet's father accepts Romeo as her rightful husband and rues that they were "poor sacrifices of our [family] enmity," while Romeo's father promises to honor Juliet's "true and faithful" memory. The Prince of Verona, who seems to be the voice of authority in the play, interprets the tragedy as heaven's "scourge" upon the wicked hate between the Capulets and Montagues that prevented Romeo and Juliet from marrying openly. The prologue also casts blame on the parents for nurturing an "ancient grudge" at the expense of their own children, whose love could have ended the strife between their families had they been willing to allow it.
    , @Thea
    English peasants practiced assortative mating back to the Middle Ages. Arranged marriage was for the upper class. Widespread divorce is a late 20th Century addition. It would be easy enough to switch this off by changing the laws of there was political will.

    However silly, "falling in love" has been viewed as a legitimate reason to make a lifetime commitment.

    , @whorefinder
    Restrictions keeping two people who are in love from being together have been a staple of world literature since forever, and long before Shakespeare wrote his plays. Most people sympathize with two decent folks (especially kids) who want to be together but geography/war/social rules keep them apart (think Jacob and Rachel, Odysseus and Penelope, Tristan and Iseult, heck any modern day "argument" in favor of gay "marriage").

    Romeo & Juliet worked on that level. Normally, the two---of the same social class, relevant ages, and such--- would have easily been arranged into a marriage, or else had their clandestine affair sanctioned by the families. However, the arbitrary "feud" between their families---a feud whose cause is never discussed, and is indeed whose cause has been forgotten by both families---keeps them apart. (Well, that and Romeo's insistence on making everything as difficult as possible; Juliet's actions in the play are relatively practical and would result in them being together, but Romeo's dunderheadness/deathwish makes him muck them up and cause their downfall. )

    But I agree with you that underlying that is a subtle theme that Romeo & Juliet should not be together, that if each acted more properly under the social rules of the time they'd both end up alive and much happier (Juliet with the stolid, boring, but devoted suitor her parents picked out, Romeo with some Rosaline look-alike).

    Romeo & Juliet is actually a warning against going for romantic excitement in love.

    , @anon

    I am totally at a loss as to how you’ve come to the conclusion that the modern form of marriage – chiefly, fall in love, get married, get divorced when you’re no longer “in love” – extends back through Western history.
     
    read hbdchick's blog - it goes back c. 1000 years in Europe

    nb the divorce part is modern
    nb2 the landed elite were different i.e. they mostly had arranged marriages like most of the world
  7. “In contrast, your cousin Aram just bought the most expensive BMW. Now, that’s something that everybody in the family can be floored by!”

    Read More
    • Replies: @FKA Max

    M.I.A. - "Bad Girls" (Official Video)


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uYs0gJD-LE
  8. Nico says:

    Interesting thoughts, but I don’t think they match quite with the title. Consanguinity is not especially high in East Asia, though it is indeed sky-high all throughout the Muslim world (plus it has a depressive effect on IQ as well as on personality, pathology and physiology.

    That said, I do suspect the differential between love marriages and arranged marriages can be exaggerated, insofar as I don’t suspect reasonably well-brought-up girls tend to choose husbands that are all THAT far off from what their fathers would want for them. There are now some 20 to 30 million more single Chinese men than single Chinese women: what will ultimately turn China into a nation of “haves” is not extension of prosperity to the rural masses but the fact that within a generation or two all poor Chinese girls will have married upwards, effectively leaving the pre-modern poor sector of their society entirely masculine and therefore destined to die out.

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    • Replies: @Ivy
    Re: Chinese male surplus: Black women face similar slim intragroup marriage prospects, what with all that murder and incarceration.

    Solution: send them to China to meet their new beaux.
    , @anon

    but I don’t think they match quite with the title. Consanguinity is not especially high in East Asia
     
    not now, especially with increased urbanization but hbdchick's blog suggests it was much higher in the recent past

    partly because it is high by default in rural populations unless it is culturally prevented e.g. by the church ban on cousin marriage in Europe. cultural encouragement simply makes it double plus high
  9. Andy says:

    Regarding this issue about conformity and eccentricity in Asian and Western Culture, there was a recent news item in the New York Times about the death of an American who had dedicated his life to study the music of the pygmies;

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/arts/music/louis-sarno-dead-studied-pygmies-music.html

    And I thought only Westerners would think this is something worth studying, no Asian would dedicate their life to study such esoteric subjects, as cultural conformity makes Asians center on very practical things, yet sometimes studying seemingly esoteric subjects can lead to real breakthroughs on general knowledge.

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    • Replies: @NOTA
    Obvious counter example #1. Tornadoes in the midwestern US are pretty obscure for a Japanese scientist.

    The second obvious counter example is the large number of Asian mathematicians. (Look at the Wikipedia article for fields medal winners.). You can't get much more abstract and non-real-worldy than like 99% of academically interesting math. South Asians show up often as well as East Asians, and South Asians are generally the product of a lot of generations of arranged marriages.

    And so on. The world looks nothing like it would if your idea were true.
    , @anon

    no Asian would dedicate their life to study such esoteric subjects
     
    i think there is some truth in this general idea but it's often greatly over stated imo.

    it's going to be a question of percentages:
    - 1% of a billion 21st century Chinese is 10 million
    - 1% of 120 million Japanese is 120,000
    - 10% of 6 million 18th century English was 600,000
    so even at a ratio of 10 to 1 there's going to be a lot of East Asian eccentrics.

    Personally i think the big difference is East Asians have been civilized longer than north Europeans and although barbarian genes are useful in small doses in certain situations civilization selects them out over time because of their negative side.

    In a nut shell barbarian genes are chaos and civilized genes are order and you need the right balance.

  10. Middle Easterners are just low IQ, and conformity is associated with low IQ. The low IQ stems from their practice of extreme cousin marraige (fathers brothers daughter).

    However, there have been plenty of unorthodox thinkers amongst Middle Easterners throughout history, i.e. their smart fractions. For example, see Taleb. Now yes, Levantine Christians aren’t exactly fullcore Middle East, but the rate of cousin marriage amongst them is still far higher than in pretty much any European or East Asian country.

    East Asians however are stereotypically very conformist, but also very high IQ.

    Conclusion: Its a Caucasoid/Mongoloid difference, not a cousin marriage/no cousin marraige one.

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    • Replies: @Nico

    Levantine Christians aren’t exactly fullcore Middle East, but the rate of cousin marriage amongst them is still far higher than in pretty much any European or East Asian country.
     
    Yes, although their rate of consanguinity is still significantly below that of their Muslim neighbors. But it is also interesting to note that Algerians stand out as the Muslim nation whose rate of consanguinity has dropped sharply over the past decades: perhaps not coincidently, they are also the only Muslim country which was in recent decades, above and beyond a simple *colony* of a European country, an actual, integral *part* of one.

    Conclusion: Its a Caucasoid/Mongoloid difference, not a cousin marriage/no cousin marraige one.
     
    This I definitely agree with.
    , @Lee Wang
    Dear Anatoly Karlin,

    This, indeed, seems much more reasonable to me. What are your thoughts on East Asian conformity: does it exists, how strong, causes etc?

    Also coincidentally Razib just has a post on Sexual selection being a largely homogenizing force; see

    http://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/04/10/sexual-selection-decreasing-difference/
    , @Robert Hume
    Cousin marriage certainly does muddy the waters. To make a valid comparison between the Asian and European, one hopes that arranged marriage in Asian societies does not imply a significant degree of cousin marriage.

    Also, it's easy to imagine that arranged marriages could increase IQ variance due to classes sticking to themselves. So IQ variance may not be a good correlate of creativity between societies.

    , @TelfoedJohn
    I think this is probably the case. After all, African-Americans are not marrying their cousins, and their status is about flashing the cash and spinning rims.

    On the other hand, I know of an Israeli father whose narrow culture resulted in him thinking that going through stores looking for bargains was a suitable playtime activity for his young son. Not stupid, just unbelievably crass. Some white South Africans are like that too.
    , @Anony
    Arabs might have low IQ and conformist thinking. However, they do have very good emotional intelligence, which makes up for the disadvantage of conformist thinking. They show up as excellent performers in America in seeing an opportunity others don't in fields that require a great ability to handle other people.

    Steve Jobs (half Jordanian) - America's greatest salesman
    Manuel Moroun (Lebanese) - America's most successful crony capitalist (owner of Ambassador Bridge, bridge between Detroit and Canada and the only one still due to political collusion)
    Joe Jamail (Lebanese) - America's most successful litigator
    , @Winthorp
    Would say Chinese conformity is downstream from rice agriculture?
    , @Twinkie

    East Asians however are stereotypically very conformist, but also very high IQ.

    Conclusion: Its a Caucasoid/Mongoloid difference, not a cousin marriage/no cousin marraige one.
     
    Funny enough, the actual Mongols aren't all that conformist. They tend to be quite independent and qurrelsome. So I tend to suspect agriculture (especially wet rice farming) as one of the major reasons why sedentary East Asians tend to be conformist.

    Then again, Scandinavians are probably the most conformist among Europeans, so may be it also has to do with cold weather/long winters/meager resources that require a high degree of conformity to survive as a group.
  11. Nico says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Middle Easterners are just low IQ, and conformity is associated with low IQ. The low IQ stems from their practice of extreme cousin marraige (fathers brothers daughter).

    However, there have been plenty of unorthodox thinkers amongst Middle Easterners throughout history, i.e. their smart fractions. For example, see Taleb. Now yes, Levantine Christians aren't exactly fullcore Middle East, but the rate of cousin marriage amongst them is still far higher than in pretty much any European or East Asian country.

    East Asians however are stereotypically very conformist, but also very high IQ.

    Conclusion: Its a Caucasoid/Mongoloid difference, not a cousin marriage/no cousin marraige one.

    Levantine Christians aren’t exactly fullcore Middle East, but the rate of cousin marriage amongst them is still far higher than in pretty much any European or East Asian country.

    Yes, although their rate of consanguinity is still significantly below that of their Muslim neighbors. But it is also interesting to note that Algerians stand out as the Muslim nation whose rate of consanguinity has dropped sharply over the past decades: perhaps not coincidently, they are also the only Muslim country which was in recent decades, above and beyond a simple *colony* of a European country, an actual, integral *part* of one.

    Conclusion: Its a Caucasoid/Mongoloid difference, not a cousin marriage/no cousin marraige one.

    This I definitely agree with.

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  12. But in the past marriages were not arranged in Europe*

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199607/the-creative-personality

    One of the most common psychological traits found among highly creative people is the contrasting personality.

    If east asians are overwhelm introverted normies and african blacks are overwhelm extroverted normies, europeans and caucasians in general will be more in the middle, ambiverted, and intense ambiverts more prone to be highly original thinkers.

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Ambiverted personality, i think it's relatively more common among europeans, even in the end most of humans tend to fall in the [big] middle of this spectrum, may create the idea of individuality as well the blank slate, may not.
  13. @Santoculto
    But in the past marriages were not arranged in Europe*

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199607/the-creative-personality

    One of the most common psychological traits found among highly creative people is the contrasting personality.

    If east asians are overwhelm introverted normies and african blacks are overwhelm extroverted normies, europeans and caucasians in general will be more in the middle, ambiverted, and intense ambiverts more prone to be highly original thinkers.

    Ambiverted personality, i think it’s relatively more common among europeans, even in the end most of humans tend to fall in the [big] middle of this spectrum, may create the idea of individuality as well the blank slate, may not.

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  14. Karl says:

    5 Anatoly Karlin > East Asians however are stereotypically very conformist, but also very high IQ

    they all make bi-national research/industrial deals, and it’s not because they need our reputation for public manners or business ethics.

    They can’t breed or manufacture kids who think outside the envelope.

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  15. Karl says:

    5 Anatoly Karlin > East Asians however are stereotypically very conformist, but also very high IQ

    they all make bi-national research/industrial deals with us, and it’s not because they admire our reputation for nice behavior in public or business ethics.

    They can’t breed or manufacture kids who think outside the envelope.

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    • Replies: @JW Bell
    E-cigarettes were invented by a Chinese pharmacist, Hon Lik.
  16. Excellent piece, very suggestive.

    May I suggest that what is true is now may not be so in the future. I suggest that you are overlooking the gargantuan appeal of American culture, commercial and indigenous, to both children and adults, living here in the US and elsewhere, offering the prospect of individual personal choice over one’s life that he/she would not have in traditional cultures. I don’t have statistics to cite but it seems that an enormous number of the most physically attractive 2nd generation South Asian girls are dating and marrying sexy white guys. At least as regards dating/hanging out together, I see a great deal of that on the campus of the huge university campus here in Austin.

    Anecdote: we are friends with a couple, the wife Korean, the husband white. At a birthday party for little Quinn, their son, I was amazed to see their set of friends, couples all of whom were SA women and white men.

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    • Agree: Whoever
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I have noticed this too. US born South Asian girls don't often date outside of South Asian group but the ones that do tend to be very attractive.
    , @Flip
    I know a white blonde woman who married an Indian living in Chicago and whose parents own a company in India. His parents are thrilled with her, especially after she came up with a son. I think that as Indians are a mixture of lighter Aryans and darker Dravidians, that introducing fair European genes into the bloodline is viewed as a good thing, similar to Latin Americans "whitening" up.
    , @Altai

    I was amazed to see their set of friends, couples all of whom were SA women and white men.
     
    Somebody I knew who did a PhD in San Diego in the late 90s once told me a story about how a friend of his went out on Valentines day on a date with his new Asian girlfriend, they chose a restaurant near the campus of the university and he was completely mortified to see that nearly every table had a white male, asian female couple.

    The beginnings of a new elite caste?

    , @RadicalCenter
    Well, I'm white and my wife is Asian, so I can't argue there's not a trend ;)
  17. Chase says:

    Evolutionarily, women have one job that is predictable, repeatable and never-changing: to have and to raise babies. This means that there isn’t much evolution that goes on with women as men- the selective pressure is just higher on men.

    When I point this out to women, they get kind of indignant, but the fact of the matter is (within limits) women select for the next generation of people. They are evolutionarily designed to pick up on individually imperceptible queues in the environment that lead to some traits being more advantageous than others (physically protection is sometimes more valuable than pure resource acquisition etc.).

    So what kind of men are our currently fertile generation of young women after? Well, unfortunately I don’t think things are getting better on their own without an external shock, let’s just put it that way.

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    • Replies: @NOTA
    I don't think this is quite right. Women are under selective pressure, but the payoffs look different--one woman can only have a smallish number of kids, so the difference between a small win (maybe 2 kids grow to adulthood) and a big one (maybe six kids grow to adulthood) isn't as compelling. A man can in principle have a lot of kids with pretty minimal investment. A woman who has ten babies is pushing her body pretty far (particularly in a pre-modern-medicine world), whereas a man who has ten babies isn't necessarily even working very hard.
    , @Olorin

    Evolutionarily, women have one job that is predictable, repeatable and never-changing: to have and to raise babies.
     
    Maybe among your people.

    Among mine, women had another important job: to run, build, maintain, and innovate everything on the home front while the menfolk were at sea.

    Look up how the spinning of plant and animal fiber advanced North Seafaring technology for instance.

    Of course the women used to go to sea as well, before the invading Abrahamics from the southern latitudes told them that made them very bad humans. Abrahamics like their women dumb, docile, and weak so that the men can feel bigger by comparison. Ogg knock up girl. Ogg big man.

    In my family, the women all raised children and were home makers...and also worked in skilled trades. They also somehow found time to make lace antimacassars for the furniture and keep those clean and starched. Of course they didn't spend a lot of time on the Internet, and none of them bothered to learn to drive. They also volunteered in the community. Their work and spending was all home and family focused.

    , @Ivy
    Don't despair about young women and their current fads. Cycles go up and down, Victorians see Flappers years later, other conservatisms become liberal commonplace, and vice versa. Kinda frustrating for the less patient current world.

    There is an uptick in tattoo removal, ear gage surgery and similar outward appearance conformities. Now, for work on the inward conformities, perhaps on a campus near each of us, when not already occurring across dinner tables.
  18. Lee Wang says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Middle Easterners are just low IQ, and conformity is associated with low IQ. The low IQ stems from their practice of extreme cousin marraige (fathers brothers daughter).

    However, there have been plenty of unorthodox thinkers amongst Middle Easterners throughout history, i.e. their smart fractions. For example, see Taleb. Now yes, Levantine Christians aren't exactly fullcore Middle East, but the rate of cousin marriage amongst them is still far higher than in pretty much any European or East Asian country.

    East Asians however are stereotypically very conformist, but also very high IQ.

    Conclusion: Its a Caucasoid/Mongoloid difference, not a cousin marriage/no cousin marraige one.

    Dear Anatoly Karlin,

    This, indeed, seems much more reasonable to me. What are your thoughts on East Asian conformity: does it exists, how strong, causes etc?

    Also coincidentally Razib just has a post on Sexual selection being a largely homogenizing force; see

    http://gnxp.nofe.me/2017/04/10/sexual-selection-decreasing-difference/

    Read More
  19. @Anatoly Karlin
    Middle Easterners are just low IQ, and conformity is associated with low IQ. The low IQ stems from their practice of extreme cousin marraige (fathers brothers daughter).

    However, there have been plenty of unorthodox thinkers amongst Middle Easterners throughout history, i.e. their smart fractions. For example, see Taleb. Now yes, Levantine Christians aren't exactly fullcore Middle East, but the rate of cousin marriage amongst them is still far higher than in pretty much any European or East Asian country.

    East Asians however are stereotypically very conformist, but also very high IQ.

    Conclusion: Its a Caucasoid/Mongoloid difference, not a cousin marriage/no cousin marraige one.

    Cousin marriage certainly does muddy the waters. To make a valid comparison between the Asian and European, one hopes that arranged marriage in Asian societies does not imply a significant degree of cousin marriage.

    Also, it’s easy to imagine that arranged marriages could increase IQ variance due to classes sticking to themselves. So IQ variance may not be a good correlate of creativity between societies.

    Read More
  20. Anony says:

    “some groups of Europeans seem to have greater creativity then equally intelligent Asians ”

    Which groups of Europeans have superior creativity to equally intelligent Asians (Japan, China, Korea)? Which are equal? Inferior?

    Superior:
    - NW Europe, Germanic countries, Northern Italy

    Equal:
    - Finnish, Polish

    Inferior:
    - Eastern Europe

    Iberian, Balkan IQ is 95+ so not ranked.

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  21. @Anatoly Karlin
    Middle Easterners are just low IQ, and conformity is associated with low IQ. The low IQ stems from their practice of extreme cousin marraige (fathers brothers daughter).

    However, there have been plenty of unorthodox thinkers amongst Middle Easterners throughout history, i.e. their smart fractions. For example, see Taleb. Now yes, Levantine Christians aren't exactly fullcore Middle East, but the rate of cousin marriage amongst them is still far higher than in pretty much any European or East Asian country.

    East Asians however are stereotypically very conformist, but also very high IQ.

    Conclusion: Its a Caucasoid/Mongoloid difference, not a cousin marriage/no cousin marraige one.

    I think this is probably the case. After all, African-Americans are not marrying their cousins, and their status is about flashing the cash and spinning rims.

    On the other hand, I know of an Israeli father whose narrow culture resulted in him thinking that going through stores looking for bargains was a suitable playtime activity for his young son. Not stupid, just unbelievably crass. Some white South Africans are like that too.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivy
    You see crass, they see 10,000 hour merchant and entrepreneur class training.
  22. Anony says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Middle Easterners are just low IQ, and conformity is associated with low IQ. The low IQ stems from their practice of extreme cousin marraige (fathers brothers daughter).

    However, there have been plenty of unorthodox thinkers amongst Middle Easterners throughout history, i.e. their smart fractions. For example, see Taleb. Now yes, Levantine Christians aren't exactly fullcore Middle East, but the rate of cousin marriage amongst them is still far higher than in pretty much any European or East Asian country.

    East Asians however are stereotypically very conformist, but also very high IQ.

    Conclusion: Its a Caucasoid/Mongoloid difference, not a cousin marriage/no cousin marraige one.

    Arabs might have low IQ and conformist thinking. However, they do have very good emotional intelligence, which makes up for the disadvantage of conformist thinking. They show up as excellent performers in America in seeing an opportunity others don’t in fields that require a great ability to handle other people.

    Steve Jobs (half Jordanian) – America’s greatest salesman
    Manuel Moroun (Lebanese) – America’s most successful crony capitalist (owner of Ambassador Bridge, bridge between Detroit and Canada and the only one still due to political collusion)
    Joe Jamail (Lebanese) – America’s most successful litigator

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    • Replies: @biz
    With the exception of Jobs, your examples, and a lot of others people like to bring up, are Christians. In truth they are a different ethnicity than their Muslim Arab neighbors, the former being indigenous stock and the latter being descended much more from Southern invaders, and everyone knew this for 1400 years until the ideology of Arab nationalism became fashionable in the 1930s.
    , @ScarletNumber
    Jobs is Syrian, not Jordanian.
  23. charlie says:

    I’d say the theory has some very strong bones.

    No question a lot of status signaling is intra family.

    My parents were embarrassed by my girlfriend lack of nice gold jewelry. The various Tiffany and Gucci pieces I’ve bought here were not doing it for the family. they bought her a pair of heavy gold bangles for Christmas.

    But cousin marriage was in the end about preserving land. Marriage as alliances and all that. I’d agree that level of feudalism doesn’t promote creativity.

    Not that Americans, or high status ones, that different now. Why do you send you kid to Harvard — so he can marry another Harvard grad? That sentence would look strange in 1950, no? And yes, I’ve seen plenty of friends discuss their Harvard-Yale opportunities for their kids as dual alumni and that sort of thing.

    (as opposed to my friends in Alabama, who seem to refer to Alabama-Auburn marriages as “mixed”)

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  24. The Z Blog says: • Website

    Having spent a lot of time around Arabs, I’m used to having someone I don’t know calling out of the blue telling me he is Mustafa’s cousin. Every Arab has more cousins than they can count. It really is mind boggling, but not to them.

    Conformity with Arabs is different from that with Asians. A good Arab programmer, for example, is going to be just as good at problem solving as a Euro programmer. Asians, in contrast have a narrowness that is difficult to fathom. They never think outside the box or color outside the lines. A great Chinese programmer will scrupulously code to the spec. I suspect it is why some of the greatest forgers have been Asians.

    That said, there is a stark difference between the Muslim Arabs and the Christian Arabs. It’s often quite stunning. Muslim Arabs are often dangerously stupid. Westerners who work with them in the field have to take this into account. Christian Arabs seem to be a SD smarter.

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    • Replies: @Formerly CARealist
    From what i've been told by Indians, they call everyone who is even remotely related to them "cousins." 2nd, 3rd, 4th cousins are all cousins to them. To us, those kinfolk are "strangers".

    In fact, I barely know most of my first cousins. I interact with none of them simply because they don't live nearby.

    For lots of us, our family is really our church.
    , @PV van der Byl

    ....... there is a stark difference between the Muslim Arabs and the Christian Arabs. ......Christian Arabs seem to be a SD smarter.
     
    My experience as well.
  25. Yes! Extended family cultures, when they come to the United States, are always “guidos.” Even among asians, Koreans have (or had) the strongest extended families and are very similar to guidos.

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  26. snorlax says:
    @HI
    My pet theory on status-signaling is about rule of law (or absence thereof). In cultures where a different set of laws applies to the rich, it's of vital practical importance to signal status. It might save your life when dealing with potential threats or law enforcement. Driving a fancy car in Helsinki or San Francisco won't make other drivers or cops treat you very differently, but in Moscow or Bombay it will. So what on the surface looks like pure ego might in fact be rooted in practical considerations.

    A modified version of this is also true in America. Increasingly we have two life tracks: one with good-paying jobs, stable marriages, happy retirement etc (I’m lucky enough to be on this one, for now, though many members of my extended family aren’t), and another one, with OxyContin and child support (unpaid).

    To maintain one’s position on the first track (or at least to reassure yourself it’s secure), you need to be constantly signaling your education, intelligence, good taste, fashionableness and so on. Thus all the partially-subconscious, partially-calculated keep-up-with-the-Joneses pseudo-individuality, like when everyone buys an expensive kayak.

    Read More
    • Replies: @snorlax
    That pop-culture discussion of "millennial woes" mainly focuses on middle-class-or-above concerns like grad school debt, rents in DC and San Francisco, Haven Monahan rapists, competitiveness for internships at Goldman Sachs or Google, job prospects for top-20 law school grads, Chinese Tiger Mom spawn and full-freight-paying rich kids taking all the spots at HYPS, nerds who ask female nerds out for coffee in ComicCon elevators and so on speaks to this bifurcation in two ways: on the one hand an increasing conscious myopia about the America that's out of sight and out of mind amongst those living charmed lives, and on the other an increasing anxiety bordering on panic about the medium-to-long-term security of their position as the two tracks diverge further and the better one becomes still more rarified.
  27. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    The extremely high percentage of 1st/2nd cousin marriage in the Arab and Gulf State is surely a factor in their ridiculously violent sense of tribalism as well.

    i.e. – loser Algerian petty criminals who migrate to France are often very sympathetic to the radical Islamist idea of bombing for the sake of their “brethren” Syrians or Palestinians even though they can’t get along with neighboring tribes in their place of origin, and few Muslim-majority countries will lift a finger to actually allow any of those “refugees” to immigrate there.

    And the cost of bride-prices in same places in the Middle East also encourage marrying close to keep the money in the family.

    1st Cousin marriage as high as 45% in places like Qatar:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-qatar-marriage-idUSBRE8330T020120404

    Read More
  28. snorlax says:
    @snorlax
    A modified version of this is also true in America. Increasingly we have two life tracks: one with good-paying jobs, stable marriages, happy retirement etc (I'm lucky enough to be on this one, for now, though many members of my extended family aren't), and another one, with OxyContin and child support (unpaid).

    To maintain one's position on the first track (or at least to reassure yourself it's secure), you need to be constantly signaling your education, intelligence, good taste, fashionableness and so on. Thus all the partially-subconscious, partially-calculated keep-up-with-the-Joneses pseudo-individuality, like when everyone buys an expensive kayak.

    That pop-culture discussion of “millennial woes” mainly focuses on middle-class-or-above concerns like grad school debt, rents in DC and San Francisco, Haven Monahan rapists, competitiveness for internships at Goldman Sachs or Google, job prospects for top-20 law school grads, Chinese Tiger Mom spawn and full-freight-paying rich kids taking all the spots at HYPS, nerds who ask female nerds out for coffee in ComicCon elevators and so on speaks to this bifurcation in two ways: on the one hand an increasing conscious myopia about the America that’s out of sight and out of mind amongst those living charmed lives, and on the other an increasing anxiety bordering on panic about the medium-to-long-term security of their position as the two tracks diverge further and the better one becomes still more rarified.

    Read More
  29. ” . . . like when everyone buys an expensive kayak.”

    snorlax nailed it.

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  30. Grumpy says:

    for individualistic (whiterpeople, or whiter-than-thou) status fights to emerge, we need a very homogenous, national demography so that extended-family competition subsides or doesn’t yield as much status as it does in mixed-ethny environments

    There is status conformity when it comes to things that Asians and whites compete against each other for in the U.S. and Canada: spots at Harvard, spots in medical school, jobs at Google, houses in Palo Alto, houses in Vancouver, etc.

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  31. A1 says:

    OT – Dortmund Monaco Game delayed by a bombing and not a mention in the North American media?

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  32. 3g4me says:

    Singapore has what is termed “kiasu” behavior, a Chinese term that literally means “not losing out,” but is better translated as a cultural variant of “keeping up with the Jones.” The concern, however, is not so much keeping up with others, but rather ensuring one stays ahead of others and that no one, in any fashion down to the most irrelevant minutiae, gets the better of you. Thus stereotypical Oriental behavior [particularly in high-trust Western societies] such as taking full advantage of any freebies – from restaurant buffets to hotel amenities to government programs – as well as tasteless flaunting of wealth and/or perceived achievement.

    What we experienced during our few years living there we now see daily among the Orientals in Texas. There’s a local example who promptly returned to China for 10 years immediately after receiving magic papers attesting to her being an “American,” and after being back in the US [albeit a totally different state and environment] for a few years and voting locally once, decided to run for mayor. What’s more American than a Chinese dragon lady, and what’s higher status among magic paper Americans than winning an election in a city previously scorned by the press as hideously White? While I haven’t checked, I’m sure her offspring [they so smaht] went to Hahvad.

    Read More
    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    A colleague in Singapore explained it to me simply when I moved there.

    "What's Kiasu?"

    "Kiasu is the lady at the lunch buffet with sharp elbows."
  33. Perhaps tengentially related to this is one book I found particularly interesting many years ago:

    The Naked Ape, by Desmond Morris.

    https://www.amazon.com/Naked-Ape-Zoologists-Study-Animal/dp/0385334303

    It would seem that arranged cousin marriages must cirumvent the natural male-female attraction and mate selecting process described by Morris. This would lead to a reduction in the evolutionary process that made us smart in the first place.

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  34. @3g4me
    Singapore has what is termed "kiasu" behavior, a Chinese term that literally means "not losing out," but is better translated as a cultural variant of "keeping up with the Jones." The concern, however, is not so much keeping up with others, but rather ensuring one stays ahead of others and that no one, in any fashion down to the most irrelevant minutiae, gets the better of you. Thus stereotypical Oriental behavior [particularly in high-trust Western societies] such as taking full advantage of any freebies - from restaurant buffets to hotel amenities to government programs - as well as tasteless flaunting of wealth and/or perceived achievement.

    What we experienced during our few years living there we now see daily among the Orientals in Texas. There's a local example who promptly returned to China for 10 years immediately after receiving magic papers attesting to her being an "American," and after being back in the US [albeit a totally different state and environment] for a few years and voting locally once, decided to run for mayor. What's more American than a Chinese dragon lady, and what's higher status among magic paper Americans than winning an election in a city previously scorned by the press as hideously White? While I haven't checked, I'm sure her offspring [they so smaht] went to Hahvad.

    A colleague in Singapore explained it to me simply when I moved there.

    “What’s Kiasu?”

    “Kiasu is the lady at the lunch buffet with sharp elbows.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @jim jones
    Malaysians despise the kiasu man:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Neh72fYfhHo
  35. biz says:
    @Anony
    Arabs might have low IQ and conformist thinking. However, they do have very good emotional intelligence, which makes up for the disadvantage of conformist thinking. They show up as excellent performers in America in seeing an opportunity others don't in fields that require a great ability to handle other people.

    Steve Jobs (half Jordanian) - America's greatest salesman
    Manuel Moroun (Lebanese) - America's most successful crony capitalist (owner of Ambassador Bridge, bridge between Detroit and Canada and the only one still due to political collusion)
    Joe Jamail (Lebanese) - America's most successful litigator

    With the exception of Jobs, your examples, and a lot of others people like to bring up, are Christians. In truth they are a different ethnicity than their Muslim Arab neighbors, the former being indigenous stock and the latter being descended much more from Southern invaders, and everyone knew this for 1400 years until the ideology of Arab nationalism became fashionable in the 1930s.

    Read More
  36. E.D says:

    Ashkenazi Jews practiced arranged marriages for centuries and they are creative and free spirited.

    Women were never completely free to select their “lovers” , there was always some saying on the netter by the patriarchy .

    Read More
    • Replies: @Big Bill
    Do you have any knowledge of Jewish history? They had no music, or literature, or fashion, or anything that might be called "free spirited" or "creative". It wasn't until the the Jewish Enlightenment ("Haskala") that a few Jews broke free and tried to liberate their people by forcing them to learn "foreign" languages (e.g. Polish and Russian and German), and study such un-Jewish things as math, science, biology, etc. They were incredibly backward and un-Western, and they liked it that way, God bless 'em.

    The cultural revolutionary Jews (called "Maskalim") were fought tooth and nail by the traditional Jews, who saw the Jewish Enlightenment for what it was: a way to destroy the culture, religion, and society of Jews and turn them into mini-Westerners.

    The culture war still goes on, even in Israel. Revolutionary European Ashkenazi Jews of the 18th and 19th Century are a very recent development in Jewish history and by no means have won the fight. "Free-spirited" and "creative" is a recent development among a subset of cultural revolutionary Jews.
    , @anon

    Ashkenazi Jews practiced arranged marriages for centuries and they are creative and free spirited.
     
    but did they adopt the hajnal marriage model at some point and were they different after?
  37. Richard says:
    @Lysander
    "...in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet."

    What? You were supposed to recognize that Juliet was wrong to fall in love with Romeo (who, at the beginning, was equally "in love" with Rosaline, and despondent because he can't have her.)

    I am totally at a loss as to how you've come to the conclusion that the modern form of marriage - chiefly, fall in love, get married, get divorced when you're no longer "in love" - extends back through Western history. Lack of travel restricted one's pool of possible mates, and "what will the family think" was every bit as important.

    “…in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet.”

    What? You were supposed to recognize that Juliet was wrong to fall in love with Romeo (who, at the beginning, was equally “in love” with Rosaline, and despondent because he can’t have her.)

    That’s a reading you’re bringing to the play out of your own biases. Following the deaths of the pair, Juliet’s father accepts Romeo as her rightful husband and rues that they were “poor sacrifices of our [family] enmity,” while Romeo’s father promises to honor Juliet’s “true and faithful” memory. The Prince of Verona, who seems to be the voice of authority in the play, interprets the tragedy as heaven’s “scourge” upon the wicked hate between the Capulets and Montagues that prevented Romeo and Juliet from marrying openly. The prologue also casts blame on the parents for nurturing an “ancient grudge” at the expense of their own children, whose love could have ended the strife between their families had they been willing to allow it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Josh
    You are supposed to empathize with r and I, but also recognize that they are complete flakes and laugh (when appropriate) at their teenage nonsense. Hence the inclusion of rosaline.
    , @Anon

    rightful husband
     
    Right, because marriage is sacramental. You're supposed to understand Romeo and Juliet, and, of course, sympathize, but, especially with Romeo, you're also supposed to think: "What are you doing, you idiot?". Father Lawrence is the voice of reason here.

    I don't see the ending as chastising the parents for refusing the marriage (which they actually haven't done), but for the ongoing feud that has made Verona impossible to live in and killed the children of the principal parties. Of course that's open to interpretation.
  38. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymouse
    Excellent piece, very suggestive.

    May I suggest that what is true is now may not be so in the future. I suggest that you are overlooking the gargantuan appeal of American culture, commercial and indigenous, to both children and adults, living here in the US and elsewhere, offering the prospect of individual personal choice over one's life that he/she would not have in traditional cultures. I don't have statistics to cite but it seems that an enormous number of the most physically attractive 2nd generation South Asian girls are dating and marrying sexy white guys. At least as regards dating/hanging out together, I see a great deal of that on the campus of the huge university campus here in Austin.

    Anecdote: we are friends with a couple, the wife Korean, the husband white. At a birthday party for little Quinn, their son, I was amazed to see their set of friends, couples all of whom were SA women and white men.

    I have noticed this too. US born South Asian girls don’t often date outside of South Asian group but the ones that do tend to be very attractive.

    Read More
    • Replies: @BenKenobi
    Here in Vancouver the least common mixed couple is brown woman/White man.
  39. Flip says:
    @Anonymouse
    Excellent piece, very suggestive.

    May I suggest that what is true is now may not be so in the future. I suggest that you are overlooking the gargantuan appeal of American culture, commercial and indigenous, to both children and adults, living here in the US and elsewhere, offering the prospect of individual personal choice over one's life that he/she would not have in traditional cultures. I don't have statistics to cite but it seems that an enormous number of the most physically attractive 2nd generation South Asian girls are dating and marrying sexy white guys. At least as regards dating/hanging out together, I see a great deal of that on the campus of the huge university campus here in Austin.

    Anecdote: we are friends with a couple, the wife Korean, the husband white. At a birthday party for little Quinn, their son, I was amazed to see their set of friends, couples all of whom were SA women and white men.

    I know a white blonde woman who married an Indian living in Chicago and whose parents own a company in India. His parents are thrilled with her, especially after she came up with a son. I think that as Indians are a mixture of lighter Aryans and darker Dravidians, that introducing fair European genes into the bloodline is viewed as a good thing, similar to Latin Americans “whitening” up.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    Not really. At least not in traditional Indian society. Everyone outside your own caste was viewed as a barbarian. Irrespective of their skin color. A middle caste man would not be pleased about his daughter marrying an upper caste brahmin.

    Things are different now especially in the big cities. A lot of them have swallowed the one world one family koolaid.
  40. Altai says:
    @KM32
    I don't know very many Iranians or Turks, but the Asian Americans I know of Chinese or Indian extraction seem as SWPL as they come within a single generation. It's only the first generation types who behave this way. Same goes for a (Coptic) Egyptian woman I knew who grew up in the Midwest. Her interests (theater, indie bands, social justice nonsense) are identical to those of a white American.

    OT, I remember having a discussion with her once where she talked about how her family had to flee Egypt because of violent attacks on her Coptic community. Yet on Facebook she's always posting pro-refugee stuff. Bizarre.

    OT #2 - What does it take to get trusted commenter status so that my posts appear immediately? I've been reading and posting here for years, yet they're always held up for moderation, sometimes for hours.

    I remember talking with an American born Chinese guy from New York, I was shocked that he was a classic SWPL. I expected a classic stereotype given he was only second generation. When I asked what he did for a living and found out he was a social worker (In New York! Not the nicest place for a nice polite Asian guy to be acting as a social worker.). I mentioned how much Irish people romanticise New York, without missing a beat he said “Because of all the diversity?” (He wasn’t being ironic) He also noted with personal approval and as his first comment on the city, how many immigrants there were in Dublin. (It never occurred to him that somebody whose own culture and ethnicity was being necessarily pushed aside in it’s only big city might have a different view)

    The entire culture pushes a clear ideal of what is a safe perspective, why would anyone expect upwardly mobile or conscientious, people regardless of their parents cultural perspective, to not inhale all of it. A lot of them seem to be aware, though, of their own or others potential ethnocentrism and seem to need to believe in it, but deep down they are fearful and maybe guilty about what is happening and a white backlash.

    Having said that at the same job I also ran into a pair of really SWPL hipsters from New England and mentioned how that seemed appropriate since the way they were dressed reminded me of Amanda Palmer and that region seems to have a distinct youth culture, the girlfriend laughed and mentioned how the boyfriend grew up with Palmer, he didn’t seem that impressed with her (For the record, I actually love the Dresden Dolls and Palmer, I don’t look to entertainers for political leadership) despite his appearance, he seemed to be trending towards becoming a shitlord, (I think it was about her defence of the younger brother in the Boston bombings) there is hope!

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  41. Altai says:
    @Anonymouse
    Excellent piece, very suggestive.

    May I suggest that what is true is now may not be so in the future. I suggest that you are overlooking the gargantuan appeal of American culture, commercial and indigenous, to both children and adults, living here in the US and elsewhere, offering the prospect of individual personal choice over one's life that he/she would not have in traditional cultures. I don't have statistics to cite but it seems that an enormous number of the most physically attractive 2nd generation South Asian girls are dating and marrying sexy white guys. At least as regards dating/hanging out together, I see a great deal of that on the campus of the huge university campus here in Austin.

    Anecdote: we are friends with a couple, the wife Korean, the husband white. At a birthday party for little Quinn, their son, I was amazed to see their set of friends, couples all of whom were SA women and white men.

    I was amazed to see their set of friends, couples all of whom were SA women and white men.

    Somebody I knew who did a PhD in San Diego in the late 90s once told me a story about how a friend of his went out on Valentines day on a date with his new Asian girlfriend, they chose a restaurant near the campus of the university and he was completely mortified to see that nearly every table had a white male, asian female couple.

    The beginnings of a new elite caste?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I had lunch at a slightly upscale Chinese place in Fort Lee, NJ (heavily Asian) on Monday, and the table across from us had an Asian woman - white man couple. Then they left, and the next couple seated at that table was AW-WM as well.
    , @Federalist
    But how would the caste perpetuate itself? Their offspring are mixed race. Would the future generations of mixed Asian/white people marry one another like the lighter skinned blacks have done? It doesn't seem like you could have a caste if it continues to be white men and Asian women.
  42. NOTA says:
    @Andy
    Regarding this issue about conformity and eccentricity in Asian and Western Culture, there was a recent news item in the New York Times about the death of an American who had dedicated his life to study the music of the pygmies;

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/arts/music/louis-sarno-dead-studied-pygmies-music.html

    And I thought only Westerners would think this is something worth studying, no Asian would dedicate their life to study such esoteric subjects, as cultural conformity makes Asians center on very practical things, yet sometimes studying seemingly esoteric subjects can lead to real breakthroughs on general knowledge.

    Obvious counter example #1. Tornadoes in the midwestern US are pretty obscure for a Japanese scientist.

    The second obvious counter example is the large number of Asian mathematicians. (Look at the Wikipedia article for fields medal winners.). You can’t get much more abstract and non-real-worldy than like 99% of academically interesting math. South Asians show up often as well as East Asians, and South Asians are generally the product of a lot of generations of arranged marriages.

    And so on. The world looks nothing like it would if your idea were true.

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  43. NOTA says:
    @Chase
    Evolutionarily, women have one job that is predictable, repeatable and never-changing: to have and to raise babies. This means that there isn't much evolution that goes on with women as men- the selective pressure is just higher on men.

    When I point this out to women, they get kind of indignant, but the fact of the matter is (within limits) women select for the next generation of people. They are evolutionarily designed to pick up on individually imperceptible queues in the environment that lead to some traits being more advantageous than others (physically protection is sometimes more valuable than pure resource acquisition etc.).

    So what kind of men are our currently fertile generation of young women after? Well, unfortunately I don't think things are getting better on their own without an external shock, let's just put it that way.

    I don’t think this is quite right. Women are under selective pressure, but the payoffs look different–one woman can only have a smallish number of kids, so the difference between a small win (maybe 2 kids grow to adulthood) and a big one (maybe six kids grow to adulthood) isn’t as compelling. A man can in principle have a lot of kids with pretty minimal investment. A woman who has ten babies is pushing her body pretty far (particularly in a pre-modern-medicine world), whereas a man who has ten babies isn’t necessarily even working very hard.

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  44. Olorin says:
    @Chase
    Evolutionarily, women have one job that is predictable, repeatable and never-changing: to have and to raise babies. This means that there isn't much evolution that goes on with women as men- the selective pressure is just higher on men.

    When I point this out to women, they get kind of indignant, but the fact of the matter is (within limits) women select for the next generation of people. They are evolutionarily designed to pick up on individually imperceptible queues in the environment that lead to some traits being more advantageous than others (physically protection is sometimes more valuable than pure resource acquisition etc.).

    So what kind of men are our currently fertile generation of young women after? Well, unfortunately I don't think things are getting better on their own without an external shock, let's just put it that way.

    Evolutionarily, women have one job that is predictable, repeatable and never-changing: to have and to raise babies.

    Maybe among your people.

    Among mine, women had another important job: to run, build, maintain, and innovate everything on the home front while the menfolk were at sea.

    Look up how the spinning of plant and animal fiber advanced North Seafaring technology for instance.

    Of course the women used to go to sea as well, before the invading Abrahamics from the southern latitudes told them that made them very bad humans. Abrahamics like their women dumb, docile, and weak so that the men can feel bigger by comparison. Ogg knock up girl. Ogg big man.

    In my family, the women all raised children and were home makers…and also worked in skilled trades. They also somehow found time to make lace antimacassars for the furniture and keep those clean and starched. Of course they didn’t spend a lot of time on the Internet, and none of them bothered to learn to drive. They also volunteered in the community. Their work and spending was all home and family focused.

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  45. FKA Max says:

    with the historic English predilection for young lovers selecting their own mates (e.g., in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet) perhaps leading to the famous English appreciation for individualism and eccentricity.

    The English seem to have best recognized the importance and power of humor as an easily testable proxy for identifying intelligence. Giving young women more say in the selection of their mate is likely highly eugenic. No other culture that I know of has a more subtle, sophisticated, i.e., highly developed/advanced sense of humor and humor culture than the English:

    My point is mostly, that we can, and, most importantly, probably should, voluntarily, evolve/adapt into and adopt more peaceful, caring, and maybe more humorous ways of competing for mates; instead of bashing each other’s heads in. This would probably also help to select for higher intelligence, instead of selecting for high testosterone/aggression and/or the “warrior gene” ( i.e. anti-social/psychopathic behavior), which would be very eugenic and generally terrific, in my opinion.
    [...]
    Forty years ago, scientists were already asking this question. Hauck and Thomas, testing eighty elementary-level students, found a very high correlation between humour and intelligence (r = .91), but, of course, that was back in 1972.
    [...]
    Clarke defines humour in terms of pattern recognition–our ability to understand relationships and impose order on competing stimuli. “An ability to recognise patterns instantly and unconsciously has proved a fundamental weapon in the cognitive arsenal of human beings.”

    Recognising patterns enables us to quickly understand our environment and function effectively within it. Language, which is unique to humans, is based on patterns. And humour, conveniently enough, is based on language. – http://www.opencolleges.edu.au/informed/features/intelligence-humour-are-smart-people-funnier/

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/lifestyle-advice/#comment-1807910

    Christopher Hitchens: Why Women Still Aren’t Funny

    This is another interesting theory, that somewhat refutes/contradicts Clyde’s claim, that males are the only sex engaging in competition for mates, and enjoying it. Women do too, just in different and more subtle ways. And they really and genuinely seem to enjoy the competition/fashion as well, so this competitive spirit might be hardwired into them as well.

    I think a world with fewer wars and fewer fashion trends would be a better world. But that is just me…
    [...]
    So, that is my theory: that the fact that modern British women are more interested in fashion than men is down to a person’s ability to narrow the field of competition by excluding outsiders from the in-group of rivals. In my childhood, there were very few fashion magazines for men, and these generally dealt with the very up-market end of fashion, since only rich men were getting more mates through fashion. Today, marriage seems to be a fair bit less monogamous, and pre-marital sex is so common, that men have started to show some, but not much, interest in fashion.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/lifestyle-advice/#comment-1808899

    Read More
    • Replies: @FKA Max
    Joking aside, British really do have unique sense of humour

    Transatlantic survey of identical twins shows our taste for biting satire and withering one-liners is in the genes

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/joking-aside-british-really-do-have-unique-sense-of-humour-793491.html


    The results revealed that positive humour – saying funny things, telling jokes, a humorous outlook on life – was linked to genes and was shared by twins in the UK and US.

    However, negative humour – teasing and ridicule, as well as more offensive, racist or sexist forms of humour, together with self-disparaging humour – appeared to be genetically linked only in Britain.

    Dr Martin, from the University of Western Ontario, said the aim was to find out whether humour has a genetic basis. "In North American families, there was a genetic basis to positive humour, but negative humour seems to be entirely learned. Growing up in a family where negative humour was practised was important in the development of that sense of humour.

    "One theory is that these styles of humour are associated with other personality traits that probably have a genetic basis. Self-defeating humour tends to be highly correlated with neuroticism. People who tend to be more negative, depressed and anxious tend to use that kind of humour."

    The comedian Charlie Higson, who helped to create the hit TV series The Fast Show, said yesterday: "What they [Americans] don't understand is the British desire to keep putting themselves down, but they fully understand irony. Their humour is considerably more sophisticated than British humour. Look at their sitcoms – the level of wit and sophistication in Friends – we don't have anything to match that. Ours tend to be about silly people doing silly things, whereas in America, it's clever people doing clever things."

    David Brent may perhaps have another explanation: "There's a weight of intellect behind my comedy."
     

    , @Santoculto
    Americans have different opinions about english humor
    , @FKA Max


    If it proves to be the case after controls, that would raise the question of what lead to selection for or non-removal of such traits and genes.

    In China the explanation is likely this (the same selection pressures could have applied to the Jewish community/population). Article by Mr. Unz:

    How Social Darwinism Made Modern China
    A thousand years of meritocracy shaped the Middle Kingdom.
    http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/
    Remarkable Upward Mobility But Relentless Downward Mobility
    [...]
    At the same time, the wealthiest villagers sometimes could afford multiple wives or concubines and regularly produced much larger numbers of surviving offspring.
    [...]
    Genghis Khan very, very likely was a carrier of the low-activity MAOA allele, the “warrior gene.”

    1 in 200 Men Direct Descendants of Genghis Khan

    These civilizations were dominated by powerful men, who could accrue to themselves massive surpluses, and translate those surpluses into reproductive advantage. This was not possible in the hunter-gatherer world where reproductive variance was constrained by the reality that allocation of resources was relatively equitable from person to person.
    [...]
    Over the past 200 years the pendulum has started to shift back, thanks to the spread of Western values and normative monogamy, which dampens the potential unequal reproductive outcomes between the rich and the poor.
     
    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/iq-does-not-exist-lead-poisoning-aside/#comment-1835586

    It seems that very harsh and “Social Darwinist” environments and cultures do not necessarily select for intelligence exclusively, or maybe not even predominately, but that they mostly select for risk taking, aggressiveness, ruthlessness, i.e., psychopathic and rather anti-social traits. This has wide-ranging implications and consequences for our World and in particular for the (white) West when it comes to immigration; even or particularly when it comes to mass-immigration of high(er) IQ but also high(er) PQ people from China, etc. into Western cultures and nations, particular into more altruistic, individualistic, trusting(less corrupt, less cut-throat, less Social Darwinist) Protestant/Northern European cultures and nations
     
    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/iq-does-not-exist-lead-poisoning-aside/#comment-1836006
  46. Jimi says:

    Razib Khan has pointed out that it only takes one generation to marry outside the family to erase genetic deficiencies accumulated over centuries of cousin marriage.

    This means that if IQs are equal and cousin marriages cause genetic conformity we ought to be seeing spikes in creativity in developing nations such as China. Also the modern elite classes of Middle Eastern countries should show increase in creativity as their offspring marry out.

    I suspect creativity is driven by western culture not just genetics. Do Eastern languages have a word like “eccentricity” to positively describe unusual behavior?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Razib Khan has pointed out that it only takes one generation to marry outside the family to erase genetic deficiencies accumulated over centuries of cousin marriage.

    Those particular deficiencies have arisen from recessive deleterious alleles, not from selection.
    , @Anonymous
    Razib Khan has pointed out that it only takes one generation to marry outside the family to erase genetic deficiencies accumulated over centuries of cousin marriage.

    Those particular deficiencies have arisen from recessive deleterious alleles, not from selection.
    , @Francis G.
    I don't know if there is a complimentary equivalent of "eccentric" in East Asian languages, but there is something like the opposite of complimentary in the Japanese word chigau, which has two meanings: "different" and "wrong".
    , @anon

    it only takes one generation to marry outside the family to erase genetic deficiencies accumulated over centuries of cousin marriage.
     
    I don't think that's entirely true.

    It may be true of things like IQ depression if they are the result of homozygosity but what if cousin-marrying or exogamous cultures create different selective environments for lots of different traits over many generations?
  47. FKA Max says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican
    “In contrast, your cousin Aram just bought the most expensive BMW. Now, that’s something that everybody in the family can be floored by!”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZyIhtN3PDI


    M.I.A. – “Bad Girls” (Official Video)

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  48. Barnard says:

    OT: Rolling Stone agrees to drop it’s appeal and settle with Eramo. Hopefully the frat can also get some money out of them.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/rolling-stone-settles-with-u-va-dean-in-defamation-case/2017/04/11/5a564532-1f02-11e7-be2a-3a1fb24d4671_story.html?utm_term=.7f2c1279b227

    Read More
    • Replies: @PhDPepper
    from that article: "In court documents, Erdely said she was “shattered” to discover that she had repeated falsehoods in her story"

    Always the glass shattering with her
  49. Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    The US should ally with ISIS? You are aware that ISIS is an extremely nasty radical Islamic terrorist organization which has killed US citizens, which has sponsored terrorists acts all over Europe, and which is killing moderates and Christians in the territories they conquer? Your comment is brain-dead dumb.

    I've looked at the comments in the Friedman article. It's apparent the liberals no longer have the mental framework to make rational judgment calls anymore. Many of the comments are utterly stupid and confused. It's like they're mentally adrift in a world they can no longer understand at all.
    , @anon
    The US has been secretly allied with Isis* from the beginning (via CIA, Saudi, Qatar and Turkey).

    *in Syria but not in Iraq
  50. L Woods says:

    Intelligence is the very last thing females select for.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Females are emotionally smarter than men, but it's tend to be more expensive for her because the weakness in logic make them more dependent or lost in the world that is dominated and shaped by men.
    , @Richard

    Intelligence is the very last thing females select for.
     
    Wealth, humor and social status are proxies for intelligence but more narrowly selected for those types of intelligence that will make a woman's life more enjoyable.
    , @anon

    Intelligence is the very last thing females select for.
     
    imo, apart from cold hard cash (aka resources to keep any future chillens safe and fed) they like a good balance of brains and brawn (where brawn, looks etc = proxy for health)

    sucks to be you

    do you even lift brah?
  51. Winthorp says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Middle Easterners are just low IQ, and conformity is associated with low IQ. The low IQ stems from their practice of extreme cousin marraige (fathers brothers daughter).

    However, there have been plenty of unorthodox thinkers amongst Middle Easterners throughout history, i.e. their smart fractions. For example, see Taleb. Now yes, Levantine Christians aren't exactly fullcore Middle East, but the rate of cousin marriage amongst them is still far higher than in pretty much any European or East Asian country.

    East Asians however are stereotypically very conformist, but also very high IQ.

    Conclusion: Its a Caucasoid/Mongoloid difference, not a cousin marriage/no cousin marraige one.

    Would say Chinese conformity is downstream from rice agriculture?

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    • Replies: @anon

    Would say Chinese conformity is downstream from rice agriculture?
     
    farming generally imo

    nvbQ = centuries of primarily crop farming ancestry

    (nvbQ = not very barbarian Quotient)
  52. donut says:
    @KM32
    I don't know very many Iranians or Turks, but the Asian Americans I know of Chinese or Indian extraction seem as SWPL as they come within a single generation. It's only the first generation types who behave this way. Same goes for a (Coptic) Egyptian woman I knew who grew up in the Midwest. Her interests (theater, indie bands, social justice nonsense) are identical to those of a white American.

    OT, I remember having a discussion with her once where she talked about how her family had to flee Egypt because of violent attacks on her Coptic community. Yet on Facebook she's always posting pro-refugee stuff. Bizarre.

    OT #2 - What does it take to get trusted commenter status so that my posts appear immediately? I've been reading and posting here for years, yet they're always held up for moderation, sometimes for hours.

    “OT #2 – What does it take to get trusted commenter status so that my posts appear immediately? I’ve been reading and posting here for years, yet they’re always held up for moderation, sometimes for hours.” Yeah , me too . LOL.

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  53. JW Bell says: • Website
    @Karl
    5 Anatoly Karlin > East Asians however are stereotypically very conformist, but also very high IQ

    they all make bi-national research/industrial deals with us, and it's not because they admire our reputation for nice behavior in public or business ethics.

    They can't breed or manufacture kids who think outside the envelope.

    E-cigarettes were invented by a Chinese pharmacist, Hon Lik.

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    • Replies: @Karl
    54 JW Bell > E-cigarettes were invented by a Chinese pharmacist, Hon Lik.

    Our previous head of the Israel Navy (Eli Marom) had a Chinese mom. You could see it, very clearly.
  54. Josh says:
    @Richard

    “…in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet.”

    What? You were supposed to recognize that Juliet was wrong to fall in love with Romeo (who, at the beginning, was equally “in love” with Rosaline, and despondent because he can’t have her.)
     
    That's a reading you're bringing to the play out of your own biases. Following the deaths of the pair, Juliet's father accepts Romeo as her rightful husband and rues that they were "poor sacrifices of our [family] enmity," while Romeo's father promises to honor Juliet's "true and faithful" memory. The Prince of Verona, who seems to be the voice of authority in the play, interprets the tragedy as heaven's "scourge" upon the wicked hate between the Capulets and Montagues that prevented Romeo and Juliet from marrying openly. The prologue also casts blame on the parents for nurturing an "ancient grudge" at the expense of their own children, whose love could have ended the strife between their families had they been willing to allow it.

    You are supposed to empathize with r and I, but also recognize that they are complete flakes and laugh (when appropriate) at their teenage nonsense. Hence the inclusion of rosaline.

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  55. Thea says:
    @Lysander
    "...in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet."

    What? You were supposed to recognize that Juliet was wrong to fall in love with Romeo (who, at the beginning, was equally "in love" with Rosaline, and despondent because he can't have her.)

    I am totally at a loss as to how you've come to the conclusion that the modern form of marriage - chiefly, fall in love, get married, get divorced when you're no longer "in love" - extends back through Western history. Lack of travel restricted one's pool of possible mates, and "what will the family think" was every bit as important.

    English peasants practiced assortative mating back to the Middle Ages. Arranged marriage was for the upper class. Widespread divorce is a late 20th Century addition. It would be easy enough to switch this off by changing the laws of there was political will.

    However silly, “falling in love” has been viewed as a legitimate reason to make a lifetime commitment.

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  56. BenKenobi says:
    @Anonymous
    I have noticed this too. US born South Asian girls don't often date outside of South Asian group but the ones that do tend to be very attractive.

    Here in Vancouver the least common mixed couple is brown woman/White man.

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  57. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @reiner Tor

    The US should ally with ISIS? You are aware that ISIS is an extremely nasty radical Islamic terrorist organization which has killed US citizens, which has sponsored terrorists acts all over Europe, and which is killing moderates and Christians in the territories they conquer? Your comment is brain-dead dumb.

    I’ve looked at the comments in the Friedman article. It’s apparent the liberals no longer have the mental framework to make rational judgment calls anymore. Many of the comments are utterly stupid and confused. It’s like they’re mentally adrift in a world they can no longer understand at all.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    Your comment is brain-dead dumb.
     
    ??
    , @Chrisnonymous
    I think maybe reiner Tor's "good idea" was sarcasm.

    Anyway, gas has been used throughout the Syrian war, but mostly by the rebels. So Tom Friedman thinks we should focus on removing Assad because he used gas by allying with the side that uses gas more than he does. Brilliant!
  58. whorefinder says: • Website

    I think it’s more a nouveau riche thing. You’re one of the first in your family to reach a certain level of wealth, you try to acquire markers of having made it as a show-off, but, not having been born in that class, you tend to go for the more ostentatious shows, the kind you’ve only seen in advertisements and pop culture.

    A good example is Trump. He grew up wealthy, but not world-changing wealthy; more like flying-first-class-all-the-time wealthy than private-jet wealthy. When he got up to private-jet- wealthy (or at least within smelling distance), he made sure all of his buildings reflected a Versaille-meets-gilded-lily gaudiness and expense that proved he was no longer The Kid from Queens but The Donald.

    In contrast, Ed Begley, Jr. is the scion of Hollywood aristocracy (his father won an Oscar). That means Ed didn’t have to prove he was a rich/powerful man growing up, so he could virtue signal to people with similar political views instead of showing off that he’d made it.

    And most Europeans were marrying close relatives for a very long time, although the Catholic Church put the kibosh on first cousin marriage and uncle-niece marriage early, so they deserve a lot of credit for ending a lot of the practices that have hurt the rest of the world on that front.

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  59. Big Bill says:
    @E.D
    Ashkenazi Jews practiced arranged marriages for centuries and they are creative and free spirited.

    Women were never completely free to select their "lovers" , there was always some saying on the netter by the patriarchy .

    Do you have any knowledge of Jewish history? They had no music, or literature, or fashion, or anything that might be called “free spirited” or “creative”. It wasn’t until the the Jewish Enlightenment (“Haskala”) that a few Jews broke free and tried to liberate their people by forcing them to learn “foreign” languages (e.g. Polish and Russian and German), and study such un-Jewish things as math, science, biology, etc. They were incredibly backward and un-Western, and they liked it that way, God bless ‘em.

    The cultural revolutionary Jews (called “Maskalim”) were fought tooth and nail by the traditional Jews, who saw the Jewish Enlightenment for what it was: a way to destroy the culture, religion, and society of Jews and turn them into mini-Westerners.

    The culture war still goes on, even in Israel. Revolutionary European Ashkenazi Jews of the 18th and 19th Century are a very recent development in Jewish history and by no means have won the fight. “Free-spirited” and “creative” is a recent development among a subset of cultural revolutionary Jews.

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    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @E.D

    Do you have any knowledge of Jewish history?
     
    Yes i do.

    They had no music, or literature, or fashion, or anything that might be called “free spirited” or “creative”
     
    Have you heard about Jewish humor ? that's a sign of free spirit and critical thinking.
    Jeiwsh halchatic literature and Talmudic scholarly is a sign of creativity even if it's BS.

    “Free-spirited” and “creative” is a recent development among a subset of cultural revolutionary Jews

     

    From an HBD point of view there is no such thing as "recent development". Jewish achievements in the last 2 centuries are more then enough to call that Ashkenazi Jews are highly creative.
    , @International Jew

    Do you have any knowledge of Jewish history? They had no music, or literature, or fashion, or anything that might be called “free spirited” or “creative”. It wasn’t until the the Jewish Enlightenment (“Haskala”) that a few Jews broke free
     
    Music: chanting. There were/are intricate -- and distinct -- musical systems for chanting the Torah, the prophets, the Ten Commandments, and there are additional special systems for certain holidays. Different communities -- Poland, Iraq, Yemen, Morocco -- had their distinct styles. Look up "Torah trope".

    Literature: look up "midrash". It's still being written, and goes back to a time when your ancestors were still swinging from branches.

    Fashion: you just have to pay attention to subtleties. Sure, it may all look "dark and drab" to you. But that's a matter of perspective. Your daughter and her friends' vast wardrobes might strike a hasidic observer as boring variations on a common theme of indecency.

  60. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Richard

    “…in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet.”

    What? You were supposed to recognize that Juliet was wrong to fall in love with Romeo (who, at the beginning, was equally “in love” with Rosaline, and despondent because he can’t have her.)
     
    That's a reading you're bringing to the play out of your own biases. Following the deaths of the pair, Juliet's father accepts Romeo as her rightful husband and rues that they were "poor sacrifices of our [family] enmity," while Romeo's father promises to honor Juliet's "true and faithful" memory. The Prince of Verona, who seems to be the voice of authority in the play, interprets the tragedy as heaven's "scourge" upon the wicked hate between the Capulets and Montagues that prevented Romeo and Juliet from marrying openly. The prologue also casts blame on the parents for nurturing an "ancient grudge" at the expense of their own children, whose love could have ended the strife between their families had they been willing to allow it.

    rightful husband

    Right, because marriage is sacramental. You’re supposed to understand Romeo and Juliet, and, of course, sympathize, but, especially with Romeo, you’re also supposed to think: “What are you doing, you idiot?”. Father Lawrence is the voice of reason here.

    I don’t see the ending as chastising the parents for refusing the marriage (which they actually haven’t done), but for the ongoing feud that has made Verona impossible to live in and killed the children of the principal parties. Of course that’s open to interpretation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Richard
    Romeo and Juliet's tragic faults are that they're too headstrong and passionate in their youth, with a susceptibility to dramatic action where a wiser, more mature person would have hesitated to see how things spun out first. But it's a wild misinterpretation to see the play's message as that they were wrong to fall in love and that arranged marriages are the way to go. Friar Laurence, the voice of reason as you say, ultimately blesses the union after he is convinced of their sincerity.
    , @colm
    No commentator on R&J ever analyzed upon Benvolio, who excuses himself during the whole mess and becomes the sole survivor of both families, which means he will be the big honcho when the Duke, who lost 2 promising relatives, passes on.

    Benvolio is the big winner of R&J, just like Fortinbras in Hamlet and Albany in Lear.
  61. Steve, do you really know that Armenyans (note the ‘y’!) are so boring and conformist? Maybe you just don’t know them well enough to see past the surface: the bling, the cars and the spikes on their fences.

    What you recognize as signs of Americans’ individuality — discerning taste in rock music, outdoor gear, foody foods, golf course architecture, hbd, our own family networks etc — would be fairly invisible to a newcomer to our shores. Indeed such a person could easily stereotype us as people who spend their lives between their house and their car.

    Maybe Armenyans have their own quirky niche interests in music, play, intellectual endeavors and so on. But they don’t talk to you or me about those things, and the web sites we go to don’t cover any of it.

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  62. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Altai

    I was amazed to see their set of friends, couples all of whom were SA women and white men.
     
    Somebody I knew who did a PhD in San Diego in the late 90s once told me a story about how a friend of his went out on Valentines day on a date with his new Asian girlfriend, they chose a restaurant near the campus of the university and he was completely mortified to see that nearly every table had a white male, asian female couple.

    The beginnings of a new elite caste?

    I had lunch at a slightly upscale Chinese place in Fort Lee, NJ (heavily Asian) on Monday, and the table across from us had an Asian woman – white man couple. Then they left, and the next couple seated at that table was AW-WM as well.

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  63. anon says: • Disclaimer

    Pakis are going to have difficulty in western countries when the lower birth rate and isolation kick in. Theu are generally hated by women (as we hate black women) & they have never evolved charisma or game since their families married them off on stattus & connections, neither important to liberated women of the west.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    All Muslim men have difficulty relating to women. Their wacky religion and its obsession with separation of the sexes is to blame. When interacting with women they're either extremely shy and timid or extremely aggressive and hostile. Normal social relations are impossible. Women to them may as well be alien creatures from another planet.
    , @Anon
    "Pakis are going to have difficulty in western countries when the lower birth rate and isolation kick in. Theu are generally hated by women (as we hate black women) & they have never evolved charisma or game since their families married them off on stattus & connections, neither important to liberated women of the west."

    It all depends on their expectations. UK is filled with 'white trash'. If Pakis are happy with that kind of women, they got pick of the litter. And the US too. Just look at 'white trash' all around.

    The thing about educated whites and East Asians is they have higher expectations. So, that will will make them hesitate in choosing partners.

    Mexicans are economically lower than whites and asians, but they find mates and have kids cuz they don't shoot too high. If a gomerz finds a gomezess or vice versa, they are happy. They make tacos and watch tv, and that's life. And if their kids don't amount to much, that's okay too. They just like kids for kids's sake, not to be 'proud' of their kids as successes.

    My guess is Pakis aren't gonna shoot that high. They are like Mexicans of South Asia. And given the vast expansion of 'trash' population of all stripes in both UK and US, I don't see problem with them finding women.

    I mean the lower half of both society is in pretty dire straits.
    , @TelfoedJohn
    The evolution of charm / charmlessness is very interesting. The most charming come from countries where courtship and love marriage are common. The setting of Romeo and Juliet is Italy - which has almost an over-abundance of charmers. The wit of the English is another example. Pakistanis, descended from generations of arranged marriages, are utterly charmless. Which is probably why they rape children in the UK. They would be completely unable to charm a real women.
  64. @L Woods
    Intelligence is the very last thing females select for.

    Females are emotionally smarter than men, but it’s tend to be more expensive for her because the weakness in logic make them more dependent or lost in the world that is dominated and shaped by men.

    Read More
  65. @Anon
    The US should ally with ISIS? You are aware that ISIS is an extremely nasty radical Islamic terrorist organization which has killed US citizens, which has sponsored terrorists acts all over Europe, and which is killing moderates and Christians in the territories they conquer? Your comment is brain-dead dumb.

    I've looked at the comments in the Friedman article. It's apparent the liberals no longer have the mental framework to make rational judgment calls anymore. Many of the comments are utterly stupid and confused. It's like they're mentally adrift in a world they can no longer understand at all.

    Your comment is brain-dead dumb.

    ??

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  66. E.D says:
    @Big Bill
    Do you have any knowledge of Jewish history? They had no music, or literature, or fashion, or anything that might be called "free spirited" or "creative". It wasn't until the the Jewish Enlightenment ("Haskala") that a few Jews broke free and tried to liberate their people by forcing them to learn "foreign" languages (e.g. Polish and Russian and German), and study such un-Jewish things as math, science, biology, etc. They were incredibly backward and un-Western, and they liked it that way, God bless 'em.

    The cultural revolutionary Jews (called "Maskalim") were fought tooth and nail by the traditional Jews, who saw the Jewish Enlightenment for what it was: a way to destroy the culture, religion, and society of Jews and turn them into mini-Westerners.

    The culture war still goes on, even in Israel. Revolutionary European Ashkenazi Jews of the 18th and 19th Century are a very recent development in Jewish history and by no means have won the fight. "Free-spirited" and "creative" is a recent development among a subset of cultural revolutionary Jews.

    Do you have any knowledge of Jewish history?

    Yes i do.

    They had no music, or literature, or fashion, or anything that might be called “free spirited” or “creative”

    Have you heard about Jewish humor ? that’s a sign of free spirit and critical thinking.
    Jeiwsh halchatic literature and Talmudic scholarly is a sign of creativity even if it’s BS.

    “Free-spirited” and “creative” is a recent development among a subset of cultural revolutionary Jews

    From an HBD point of view there is no such thing as “recent development”. Jewish achievements in the last 2 centuries are more then enough to call that Ashkenazi Jews are highly creative.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jimi
    The capacity was always there but directed into religious studies. Secular creativity is a recent phenomenon.
    , @Ivy
    The late Don Rickles displayed one aspect of Jewish humor, an echo of the kibitzing and other noticing and commenting that passed the time in the shtetl. Being cooped up with all that study and neurons working overtime had to result in some creative outlets, hence verbality.
  67. FKA Max says:
    @FKA Max

    with the historic English predilection for young lovers selecting their own mates (e.g., in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet) perhaps leading to the famous English appreciation for individualism and eccentricity.
     
    The English seem to have best recognized the importance and power of humor as an easily testable proxy for identifying intelligence. Giving young women more say in the selection of their mate is likely highly eugenic. No other culture that I know of has a more subtle, sophisticated, i.e., highly developed/advanced sense of humor and humor culture than the English:

    My point is mostly, that we can, and, most importantly, probably should, voluntarily, evolve/adapt into and adopt more peaceful, caring, and maybe more humorous ways of competing for mates; instead of bashing each other’s heads in. This would probably also help to select for higher intelligence, instead of selecting for high testosterone/aggression and/or the “warrior gene” ( i.e. anti-social/psychopathic behavior), which would be very eugenic and generally terrific, in my opinion.
    [...]
    Forty years ago, scientists were already asking this question. Hauck and Thomas, testing eighty elementary-level students, found a very high correlation between humour and intelligence (r = .91), but, of course, that was back in 1972.
    [...]
    Clarke defines humour in terms of pattern recognition–our ability to understand relationships and impose order on competing stimuli. “An ability to recognise patterns instantly and unconsciously has proved a fundamental weapon in the cognitive arsenal of human beings.”

    Recognising patterns enables us to quickly understand our environment and function effectively within it. Language, which is unique to humans, is based on patterns. And humour, conveniently enough, is based on language. - http://www.opencolleges.edu.au/informed/features/intelligence-humour-are-smart-people-funnier/
     

    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/lifestyle-advice/#comment-1807910

    Christopher Hitchens: Why Women Still Aren’t Funny

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7izJggqCoA


    This is another interesting theory, that somewhat refutes/contradicts Clyde’s claim, that males are the only sex engaging in competition for mates, and enjoying it. Women do too, just in different and more subtle ways. And they really and genuinely seem to enjoy the competition/fashion as well, so this competitive spirit might be hardwired into them as well.

    I think a world with fewer wars and fewer fashion trends would be a better world. But that is just me…
    [...]
    So, that is my theory: that the fact that modern British women are more interested in fashion than men is down to a person’s ability to narrow the field of competition by excluding outsiders from the in-group of rivals. In my childhood, there were very few fashion magazines for men, and these generally dealt with the very up-market end of fashion, since only rich men were getting more mates through fashion. Today, marriage seems to be a fair bit less monogamous, and pre-marital sex is so common, that men have started to show some, but not much, interest in fashion.
     

    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/lifestyle-advice/#comment-1808899

    Joking aside, British really do have unique sense of humour

    Transatlantic survey of identical twins shows our taste for biting satire and withering one-liners is in the genes

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/joking-aside-british-really-do-have-unique-sense-of-humour-793491.html

    The results revealed that positive humour – saying funny things, telling jokes, a humorous outlook on life – was linked to genes and was shared by twins in the UK and US.

    However, negative humour – teasing and ridicule, as well as more offensive, racist or sexist forms of humour, together with self-disparaging humour – appeared to be genetically linked only in Britain.

    Dr Martin, from the University of Western Ontario, said the aim was to find out whether humour has a genetic basis. “In North American families, there was a genetic basis to positive humour, but negative humour seems to be entirely learned. Growing up in a family where negative humour was practised was important in the development of that sense of humour.

    “One theory is that these styles of humour are associated with other personality traits that probably have a genetic basis. Self-defeating humour tends to be highly correlated with neuroticism. People who tend to be more negative, depressed and anxious tend to use that kind of humour.”

    The comedian Charlie Higson, who helped to create the hit TV series The Fast Show, said yesterday: “What they [Americans] don’t understand is the British desire to keep putting themselves down, but they fully understand irony. Their humour is considerably more sophisticated than British humour. Look at their sitcoms – the level of wit and sophistication in Friends – we don’t have anything to match that. Ours tend to be about silly people doing silly things, whereas in America, it’s clever people doing clever things.”

    David Brent may perhaps have another explanation: “There’s a weight of intellect behind my comedy.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    However, negative humour – teasing and ridicule
     
    It's the British version of Danish Jante Law imo

    https://ourhouseinaarhus.wordpress.com/2014/05/15/standing-out-in-denmark-discovering-the-jante-law/

    The researchers should see if these negative humor genes are in Danes too but don't express the same way.

    It wouldn't be surprising imo if the people who went to the US had less of that.

    if so it'd be
    - Jante Law gene x
    - humor gene y (possibly related to "agreeableness" somehow)
    and
    - Danes with x
    - UK starting with x and developing y as well for some reason so x + y
    - US immigration-filtered on the x so mostly y
  68. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @anon
    Pakis are going to have difficulty in western countries when the lower birth rate and isolation kick in. Theu are generally hated by women (as we hate black women) & they have never evolved charisma or game since their families married them off on stattus & connections, neither important to liberated women of the west.

    All Muslim men have difficulty relating to women. Their wacky religion and its obsession with separation of the sexes is to blame. When interacting with women they’re either extremely shy and timid or extremely aggressive and hostile. Normal social relations are impossible. Women to them may as well be alien creatures from another planet.

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  69. @Anony
    Arabs might have low IQ and conformist thinking. However, they do have very good emotional intelligence, which makes up for the disadvantage of conformist thinking. They show up as excellent performers in America in seeing an opportunity others don't in fields that require a great ability to handle other people.

    Steve Jobs (half Jordanian) - America's greatest salesman
    Manuel Moroun (Lebanese) - America's most successful crony capitalist (owner of Ambassador Bridge, bridge between Detroit and Canada and the only one still due to political collusion)
    Joe Jamail (Lebanese) - America's most successful litigator

    Jobs is Syrian, not Jordanian.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Boomstick
    It's interesting that his sister, Mona Simpson, became a significant novelist. Two national figures from one biological family is surprising. She describes herself as a student: "a smart aleck who used to make jokes in class. I did get in trouble a lot when I was older and then I didn't like school so much anymore." That sounds Jobsian.

    I wonder how the mother/father mix played out.
  70. @FKA Max

    with the historic English predilection for young lovers selecting their own mates (e.g., in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet) perhaps leading to the famous English appreciation for individualism and eccentricity.
     
    The English seem to have best recognized the importance and power of humor as an easily testable proxy for identifying intelligence. Giving young women more say in the selection of their mate is likely highly eugenic. No other culture that I know of has a more subtle, sophisticated, i.e., highly developed/advanced sense of humor and humor culture than the English:

    My point is mostly, that we can, and, most importantly, probably should, voluntarily, evolve/adapt into and adopt more peaceful, caring, and maybe more humorous ways of competing for mates; instead of bashing each other’s heads in. This would probably also help to select for higher intelligence, instead of selecting for high testosterone/aggression and/or the “warrior gene” ( i.e. anti-social/psychopathic behavior), which would be very eugenic and generally terrific, in my opinion.
    [...]
    Forty years ago, scientists were already asking this question. Hauck and Thomas, testing eighty elementary-level students, found a very high correlation between humour and intelligence (r = .91), but, of course, that was back in 1972.
    [...]
    Clarke defines humour in terms of pattern recognition–our ability to understand relationships and impose order on competing stimuli. “An ability to recognise patterns instantly and unconsciously has proved a fundamental weapon in the cognitive arsenal of human beings.”

    Recognising patterns enables us to quickly understand our environment and function effectively within it. Language, which is unique to humans, is based on patterns. And humour, conveniently enough, is based on language. - http://www.opencolleges.edu.au/informed/features/intelligence-humour-are-smart-people-funnier/
     

    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/lifestyle-advice/#comment-1807910

    Christopher Hitchens: Why Women Still Aren’t Funny

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7izJggqCoA


    This is another interesting theory, that somewhat refutes/contradicts Clyde’s claim, that males are the only sex engaging in competition for mates, and enjoying it. Women do too, just in different and more subtle ways. And they really and genuinely seem to enjoy the competition/fashion as well, so this competitive spirit might be hardwired into them as well.

    I think a world with fewer wars and fewer fashion trends would be a better world. But that is just me…
    [...]
    So, that is my theory: that the fact that modern British women are more interested in fashion than men is down to a person’s ability to narrow the field of competition by excluding outsiders from the in-group of rivals. In my childhood, there were very few fashion magazines for men, and these generally dealt with the very up-market end of fashion, since only rich men were getting more mates through fashion. Today, marriage seems to be a fair bit less monogamous, and pre-marital sex is so common, that men have started to show some, but not much, interest in fashion.
     

    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/lifestyle-advice/#comment-1808899

    Americans have different opinions about english humor

    Read More
  71. On most socially significant traits, I’d expect that, if anything, greater genetic variability in a population would decrease through “love marriages”.

    One thing known to create greater genetic variance is assortative mating.

    But I would guess that it’s arranged marriages — where families make pretty careful assessments as to what another family to marry into might be — that are most likely to increase how assortative mating is.

    Insofar as “love marriages” mix together otherwise disparate types, the typical effect for a genetically based, complex trait should be to create progeny that are in between the two types, reducing variability.

    Read More
    • Replies: @candid_observer
    Maybe, though, one way mating of disparate types might create a more variable progeny is by combining types that mostly have been kept apart along family lines.

    Suppose that people in the theater have mostly arisen along family lines, and that people in commerce have mostly arisen along family lines, but those family lines virtually never cross. Then it's possible that marriages across these family lines will produce people who, though not as extremely good in either area, are remarkably good at things that require some real talent at both theater and commerce -- say a salesman.

    "Love marriages" might be best at creating those sorts of high achieving people.
    , @candid_observer
    Maybe the way to think about this is that arranged marriages are best at creating extremes along the lines for which families might select. Love marriages would be best at creating new hybrids of talents and inclinations.
  72. Richard says:
    @Anon

    rightful husband
     
    Right, because marriage is sacramental. You're supposed to understand Romeo and Juliet, and, of course, sympathize, but, especially with Romeo, you're also supposed to think: "What are you doing, you idiot?". Father Lawrence is the voice of reason here.

    I don't see the ending as chastising the parents for refusing the marriage (which they actually haven't done), but for the ongoing feud that has made Verona impossible to live in and killed the children of the principal parties. Of course that's open to interpretation.

    Romeo and Juliet’s tragic faults are that they’re too headstrong and passionate in their youth, with a susceptibility to dramatic action where a wiser, more mature person would have hesitated to see how things spun out first. But it’s a wild misinterpretation to see the play’s message as that they were wrong to fall in love and that arranged marriages are the way to go. Friar Laurence, the voice of reason as you say, ultimately blesses the union after he is convinced of their sincerity.

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  73. Interesting hypothesis. But lots of nerdy white guys have hobbies that don’t confer any social status whatsoever.

    I know guys who make wooden carvings of Star Wars characters and guys who collect airline timetables. There’s a guy on YouTube who plays 1950s soap-opera themes on an organ that he keeps in his living room.

    Many of my interests would bore most normal people to tears.

    Maybe all those years our ancestors spent holed up in caves with nothing to do left us with a highly-developed ability to combat boredom by finding the most mind-numbingly boring things interesting.

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  74. Richard says:
    @L Woods
    Intelligence is the very last thing females select for.

    Intelligence is the very last thing females select for.

    Wealth, humor and social status are proxies for intelligence but more narrowly selected for those types of intelligence that will make a woman’s life more enjoyable.

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  75. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Funny, my wife’s Armenian cousins, descended from her more flamboyant uncle, drive Range Rovers, Mercedes, and Teslas. She from very frugal parents married into a family of Northern Europeans who drive standard Japanese and VW cars.

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  76. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Jimi
    Razib Khan has pointed out that it only takes one generation to marry outside the family to erase genetic deficiencies accumulated over centuries of cousin marriage.

    This means that if IQs are equal and cousin marriages cause genetic conformity we ought to be seeing spikes in creativity in developing nations such as China. Also the modern elite classes of Middle Eastern countries should show increase in creativity as their offspring marry out.

    I suspect creativity is driven by western culture not just genetics. Do Eastern languages have a word like "eccentricity" to positively describe unusual behavior?

    Razib Khan has pointed out that it only takes one generation to marry outside the family to erase genetic deficiencies accumulated over centuries of cousin marriage.

    Those particular deficiencies have arisen from recessive deleterious alleles, not from selection.

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  77. PhDPepper says:
    @Barnard
    OT: Rolling Stone agrees to drop it's appeal and settle with Eramo. Hopefully the frat can also get some money out of them.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/rolling-stone-settles-with-u-va-dean-in-defamation-case/2017/04/11/5a564532-1f02-11e7-be2a-3a1fb24d4671_story.html?utm_term=.7f2c1279b227

    from that article: “In court documents, Erdely said she was “shattered” to discover that she had repeated falsehoods in her story”

    Always the glass shattering with her

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    It's almost like her editor in college, Stephen Glass, was later the subject of the movie "Shattered Glass."
  78. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Jimi
    Razib Khan has pointed out that it only takes one generation to marry outside the family to erase genetic deficiencies accumulated over centuries of cousin marriage.

    This means that if IQs are equal and cousin marriages cause genetic conformity we ought to be seeing spikes in creativity in developing nations such as China. Also the modern elite classes of Middle Eastern countries should show increase in creativity as their offspring marry out.

    I suspect creativity is driven by western culture not just genetics. Do Eastern languages have a word like "eccentricity" to positively describe unusual behavior?

    Razib Khan has pointed out that it only takes one generation to marry outside the family to erase genetic deficiencies accumulated over centuries of cousin marriage.

    Those particular deficiencies have arisen from recessive deleterious alleles, not from selection.

    Read More
  79. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @anon
    Pakis are going to have difficulty in western countries when the lower birth rate and isolation kick in. Theu are generally hated by women (as we hate black women) & they have never evolved charisma or game since their families married them off on stattus & connections, neither important to liberated women of the west.

    “Pakis are going to have difficulty in western countries when the lower birth rate and isolation kick in. Theu are generally hated by women (as we hate black women) & they have never evolved charisma or game since their families married them off on stattus & connections, neither important to liberated women of the west.”

    It all depends on their expectations. UK is filled with ‘white trash’. If Pakis are happy with that kind of women, they got pick of the litter. And the US too. Just look at ‘white trash’ all around.

    The thing about educated whites and East Asians is they have higher expectations. So, that will will make them hesitate in choosing partners.

    Mexicans are economically lower than whites and asians, but they find mates and have kids cuz they don’t shoot too high. If a gomerz finds a gomezess or vice versa, they are happy. They make tacos and watch tv, and that’s life. And if their kids don’t amount to much, that’s okay too. They just like kids for kids’s sake, not to be ‘proud’ of their kids as successes.

    My guess is Pakis aren’t gonna shoot that high. They are like Mexicans of South Asia. And given the vast expansion of ‘trash’ population of all stripes in both UK and US, I don’t see problem with them finding women.

    I mean the lower half of both society is in pretty dire straits.

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    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    "UK is filled with ‘white trash’. If Pakis are happy with that kind of women, they got pick of the litter."

    No they don't, South Asians do even worse in the low IQ population. The competition for trashy white women are trashy white men and black men and trashy lower class white women put even higher value on superficial charisma, non-verbal displays like dancing and simple dominance. South Asian men do much, much worse than lower class whites or blacks in all that.

    That is why you see those Paki gangs grooming runaway children from broken drug addict and alcoholic families and that's why you see them engage in extreme mate guarding like acid attacks on women who date out - the sexual market value of a low IQ South Asian man is so low that it's completely pointless for most to even attempt to compete with lower class whites and blacks.
  80. Jimi says:
    @E.D

    Do you have any knowledge of Jewish history?
     
    Yes i do.

    They had no music, or literature, or fashion, or anything that might be called “free spirited” or “creative”
     
    Have you heard about Jewish humor ? that's a sign of free spirit and critical thinking.
    Jeiwsh halchatic literature and Talmudic scholarly is a sign of creativity even if it's BS.

    “Free-spirited” and “creative” is a recent development among a subset of cultural revolutionary Jews

     

    From an HBD point of view there is no such thing as "recent development". Jewish achievements in the last 2 centuries are more then enough to call that Ashkenazi Jews are highly creative.

    The capacity was always there but directed into religious studies. Secular creativity is a recent phenomenon.

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  81. @The Z Blog
    Having spent a lot of time around Arabs, I'm used to having someone I don't know calling out of the blue telling me he is Mustafa's cousin. Every Arab has more cousins than they can count. It really is mind boggling, but not to them.

    Conformity with Arabs is different from that with Asians. A good Arab programmer, for example, is going to be just as good at problem solving as a Euro programmer. Asians, in contrast have a narrowness that is difficult to fathom. They never think outside the box or color outside the lines. A great Chinese programmer will scrupulously code to the spec. I suspect it is why some of the greatest forgers have been Asians.

    That said, there is a stark difference between the Muslim Arabs and the Christian Arabs. It's often quite stunning. Muslim Arabs are often dangerously stupid. Westerners who work with them in the field have to take this into account. Christian Arabs seem to be a SD smarter.

    From what i’ve been told by Indians, they call everyone who is even remotely related to them “cousins.” 2nd, 3rd, 4th cousins are all cousins to them. To us, those kinfolk are “strangers”.

    In fact, I barely know most of my first cousins. I interact with none of them simply because they don’t live nearby.

    For lots of us, our family is really our church.

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  82. @candid_observer
    On most socially significant traits, I'd expect that, if anything, greater genetic variability in a population would decrease through "love marriages".

    One thing known to create greater genetic variance is assortative mating.

    But I would guess that it's arranged marriages -- where families make pretty careful assessments as to what another family to marry into might be -- that are most likely to increase how assortative mating is.

    Insofar as "love marriages" mix together otherwise disparate types, the typical effect for a genetically based, complex trait should be to create progeny that are in between the two types, reducing variability.

    Maybe, though, one way mating of disparate types might create a more variable progeny is by combining types that mostly have been kept apart along family lines.

    Suppose that people in the theater have mostly arisen along family lines, and that people in commerce have mostly arisen along family lines, but those family lines virtually never cross. Then it’s possible that marriages across these family lines will produce people who, though not as extremely good in either area, are remarkably good at things that require some real talent at both theater and commerce — say a salesman.

    “Love marriages” might be best at creating those sorts of high achieving people.

    Read More
  83. snorlax says:
    @KM32
    I don't know very many Iranians or Turks, but the Asian Americans I know of Chinese or Indian extraction seem as SWPL as they come within a single generation. It's only the first generation types who behave this way. Same goes for a (Coptic) Egyptian woman I knew who grew up in the Midwest. Her interests (theater, indie bands, social justice nonsense) are identical to those of a white American.

    OT, I remember having a discussion with her once where she talked about how her family had to flee Egypt because of violent attacks on her Coptic community. Yet on Facebook she's always posting pro-refugee stuff. Bizarre.

    OT #2 - What does it take to get trusted commenter status so that my posts appear immediately? I've been reading and posting here for years, yet they're always held up for moderation, sometimes for hours.

    OT #2 – What does it take to get trusted commenter status so that my posts appear immediately? I’ve been reading and posting here for years, yet they’re always held up for moderation, sometimes for hours.

    The tl:dr is at Steve’s whim, the long answer is one of two ways:

    • Be a long-time active commenter and don’t break Steve’s unwritten rules (before achieving trusted commenter status I never had one that wasn’t approved, so I don’t know exactly, but I believe it’s no n-word, no death threats, no porno links). I believe you’re more likely to get it if you post stuff he finds interesting, you’re polite to other commenters and you don’t often use foul language (especially strong ethnic slurs).

    • He usually gives you it if you donate to him. (So I’ve heard; he gave me trusted status before I became a donor).

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  84. @Anon
    The US should ally with ISIS? You are aware that ISIS is an extremely nasty radical Islamic terrorist organization which has killed US citizens, which has sponsored terrorists acts all over Europe, and which is killing moderates and Christians in the territories they conquer? Your comment is brain-dead dumb.

    I've looked at the comments in the Friedman article. It's apparent the liberals no longer have the mental framework to make rational judgment calls anymore. Many of the comments are utterly stupid and confused. It's like they're mentally adrift in a world they can no longer understand at all.

    I think maybe reiner Tor’s “good idea” was sarcasm.

    Anyway, gas has been used throughout the Syrian war, but mostly by the rebels. So Tom Friedman thinks we should focus on removing Assad because he used gas by allying with the side that uses gas more than he does. Brilliant!

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  85. whorefinder says: • Website
    @Lysander
    "...in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet."

    What? You were supposed to recognize that Juliet was wrong to fall in love with Romeo (who, at the beginning, was equally "in love" with Rosaline, and despondent because he can't have her.)

    I am totally at a loss as to how you've come to the conclusion that the modern form of marriage - chiefly, fall in love, get married, get divorced when you're no longer "in love" - extends back through Western history. Lack of travel restricted one's pool of possible mates, and "what will the family think" was every bit as important.

    Restrictions keeping two people who are in love from being together have been a staple of world literature since forever, and long before Shakespeare wrote his plays. Most people sympathize with two decent folks (especially kids) who want to be together but geography/war/social rules keep them apart (think Jacob and Rachel, Odysseus and Penelope, Tristan and Iseult, heck any modern day “argument” in favor of gay “marriage”).

    Romeo & Juliet worked on that level. Normally, the two—of the same social class, relevant ages, and such— would have easily been arranged into a marriage, or else had their clandestine affair sanctioned by the families. However, the arbitrary “feud” between their families—a feud whose cause is never discussed, and is indeed whose cause has been forgotten by both families—keeps them apart. (Well, that and Romeo’s insistence on making everything as difficult as possible; Juliet’s actions in the play are relatively practical and would result in them being together, but Romeo’s dunderheadness/deathwish makes him muck them up and cause their downfall. )

    But I agree with you that underlying that is a subtle theme that Romeo & Juliet should not be together, that if each acted more properly under the social rules of the time they’d both end up alive and much happier (Juliet with the stolid, boring, but devoted suitor her parents picked out, Romeo with some Rosaline look-alike).

    Romeo & Juliet is actually a warning against going for romantic excitement in love.

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  86. Ivy says:
    @HI
    My pet theory on status-signaling is about rule of law (or absence thereof). In cultures where a different set of laws applies to the rich, it's of vital practical importance to signal status. It might save your life when dealing with potential threats or law enforcement. Driving a fancy car in Helsinki or San Francisco won't make other drivers or cops treat you very differently, but in Moscow or Bombay it will. So what on the surface looks like pure ego might in fact be rooted in practical considerations.

    Fancy cars are a dime a dozen around LA, given local tendencies toward conspicuous consumption, but that doesn’t stop some drivers from their German Sedan or English SUV righteousness. Spend enough time on streets and freeways here and you will observe some peculiar aggressiveness and douche-signaling. (“I drive an S-Class, so I’m cutting in line”, etc).

    A fair amount of that seems to be demonstrated by what were once nouveau riche and are now just manifesting anxiety about their fairly new station in life. They seem more likely to have various DSM-V prescriptions. Noticing the archetypes can make things easier.

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  87. Ivy says:
    @Nico
    Interesting thoughts, but I don't think they match quite with the title. Consanguinity is not especially high in East Asia, though it is indeed sky-high all throughout the Muslim world (plus it has a depressive effect on IQ as well as on personality, pathology and physiology.

    That said, I do suspect the differential between love marriages and arranged marriages can be exaggerated, insofar as I don't suspect reasonably well-brought-up girls tend to choose husbands that are all THAT far off from what their fathers would want for them. There are now some 20 to 30 million more single Chinese men than single Chinese women: what will ultimately turn China into a nation of "haves" is not extension of prosperity to the rural masses but the fact that within a generation or two all poor Chinese girls will have married upwards, effectively leaving the pre-modern poor sector of their society entirely masculine and therefore destined to die out.

    Re: Chinese male surplus: Black women face similar slim intragroup marriage prospects, what with all that murder and incarceration.

    Solution: send them to China to meet their new beaux.

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    • Replies: @Hapalong Cassidy
    No way that would fly in China. A better solution; send all those surplus Chinese males to Africa. As long as these men are forbidden from bringing their African spouses and their progeny back to China, it's a win-win for both sides. China gets rid of its surplus males, and Africa gets a slight IQ bump.
  88. @candid_observer
    On most socially significant traits, I'd expect that, if anything, greater genetic variability in a population would decrease through "love marriages".

    One thing known to create greater genetic variance is assortative mating.

    But I would guess that it's arranged marriages -- where families make pretty careful assessments as to what another family to marry into might be -- that are most likely to increase how assortative mating is.

    Insofar as "love marriages" mix together otherwise disparate types, the typical effect for a genetically based, complex trait should be to create progeny that are in between the two types, reducing variability.

    Maybe the way to think about this is that arranged marriages are best at creating extremes along the lines for which families might select. Love marriages would be best at creating new hybrids of talents and inclinations.

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  89. @PhDPepper
    from that article: "In court documents, Erdely said she was “shattered” to discover that she had repeated falsehoods in her story"

    Always the glass shattering with her

    It’s almost like her editor in college, Stephen Glass, was later the subject of the movie “Shattered Glass.”

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  90. Ivy says:
    @Chase
    Evolutionarily, women have one job that is predictable, repeatable and never-changing: to have and to raise babies. This means that there isn't much evolution that goes on with women as men- the selective pressure is just higher on men.

    When I point this out to women, they get kind of indignant, but the fact of the matter is (within limits) women select for the next generation of people. They are evolutionarily designed to pick up on individually imperceptible queues in the environment that lead to some traits being more advantageous than others (physically protection is sometimes more valuable than pure resource acquisition etc.).

    So what kind of men are our currently fertile generation of young women after? Well, unfortunately I don't think things are getting better on their own without an external shock, let's just put it that way.

    Don’t despair about young women and their current fads. Cycles go up and down, Victorians see Flappers years later, other conservatisms become liberal commonplace, and vice versa. Kinda frustrating for the less patient current world.

    There is an uptick in tattoo removal, ear gage surgery and similar outward appearance conformities. Now, for work on the inward conformities, perhaps on a campus near each of us, when not already occurring across dinner tables.

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  91. Ivy says:
    @TelfoedJohn
    I think this is probably the case. After all, African-Americans are not marrying their cousins, and their status is about flashing the cash and spinning rims.

    On the other hand, I know of an Israeli father whose narrow culture resulted in him thinking that going through stores looking for bargains was a suitable playtime activity for his young son. Not stupid, just unbelievably crass. Some white South Africans are like that too.

    You see crass, they see 10,000 hour merchant and entrepreneur class training.

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  92. Boomstick says:
    @ScarletNumber
    Jobs is Syrian, not Jordanian.

    It’s interesting that his sister, Mona Simpson, became a significant novelist. Two national figures from one biological family is surprising. She describes herself as a student: “a smart aleck who used to make jokes in class. I did get in trouble a lot when I was older and then I didn’t like school so much anymore.” That sounds Jobsian.

    I wonder how the mother/father mix played out.

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    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    "Two national figures from one biological family" is not uncommon in many fields.
    , @TelfoedJohn
    Jobs was so successful because he had two fathers. His biological father came from a
    very successful business family, while his adoptive father was a genius at creating things with his hands. If he had not been adopted then he wouldn't have been able to combine these things.
  93. Ivy says:
    @E.D

    Do you have any knowledge of Jewish history?
     
    Yes i do.

    They had no music, or literature, or fashion, or anything that might be called “free spirited” or “creative”
     
    Have you heard about Jewish humor ? that's a sign of free spirit and critical thinking.
    Jeiwsh halchatic literature and Talmudic scholarly is a sign of creativity even if it's BS.

    “Free-spirited” and “creative” is a recent development among a subset of cultural revolutionary Jews

     

    From an HBD point of view there is no such thing as "recent development". Jewish achievements in the last 2 centuries are more then enough to call that Ashkenazi Jews are highly creative.

    The late Don Rickles displayed one aspect of Jewish humor, an echo of the kibitzing and other noticing and commenting that passed the time in the shtetl. Being cooped up with all that study and neurons working overtime had to result in some creative outlets, hence verbality.

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    There's a thin line between verbality and verbosity.
  94. @Jimi
    Razib Khan has pointed out that it only takes one generation to marry outside the family to erase genetic deficiencies accumulated over centuries of cousin marriage.

    This means that if IQs are equal and cousin marriages cause genetic conformity we ought to be seeing spikes in creativity in developing nations such as China. Also the modern elite classes of Middle Eastern countries should show increase in creativity as their offspring marry out.

    I suspect creativity is driven by western culture not just genetics. Do Eastern languages have a word like "eccentricity" to positively describe unusual behavior?

    I don’t know if there is a complimentary equivalent of “eccentric” in East Asian languages, but there is something like the opposite of complimentary in the Japanese word chigau, which has two meanings: “different” and “wrong”.

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  95. Back in 2008 I blogged:

    …the tastes of the whiterpeople on StuffWhitePeopleLike.com

    Wow, that site is nine years old already? Someone please reset the clepsydra.

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  96. For what it’s worth, Emma Lazarus had an unrequited crush on her first cousin. Might’ve driven her nuts.

    That may sound weird to us, but among the Sephardics , there was (is?) a long tradition of uncle-niece marriage. So Emma was branching out, it seems.

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  97. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Flip
    I know a white blonde woman who married an Indian living in Chicago and whose parents own a company in India. His parents are thrilled with her, especially after she came up with a son. I think that as Indians are a mixture of lighter Aryans and darker Dravidians, that introducing fair European genes into the bloodline is viewed as a good thing, similar to Latin Americans "whitening" up.

    Not really. At least not in traditional Indian society. Everyone outside your own caste was viewed as a barbarian. Irrespective of their skin color. A middle caste man would not be pleased about his daughter marrying an upper caste brahmin.

    Things are different now especially in the big cities. A lot of them have swallowed the one world one family koolaid.

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  98. @Boomstick
    It's interesting that his sister, Mona Simpson, became a significant novelist. Two national figures from one biological family is surprising. She describes herself as a student: "a smart aleck who used to make jokes in class. I did get in trouble a lot when I was older and then I didn't like school so much anymore." That sounds Jobsian.

    I wonder how the mother/father mix played out.

    “Two national figures from one biological family” is not uncommon in many fields.

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    • Replies: @Boomstick
    OK, but they were two different fields, and they literally did not know each other or the parents that raised each of them.

    What's a good list of sibling national figures? How many are in different fields?

    The Emanuels (Rahm, Ezekiel, and Ari, Ari in Hollywood, Rahm in politics, Ezekiel in MD)
    The Bennetts (Bill and Robert, both lawyers, Bill went off in a different direction after law school)
  99. @Ivy
    The late Don Rickles displayed one aspect of Jewish humor, an echo of the kibitzing and other noticing and commenting that passed the time in the shtetl. Being cooped up with all that study and neurons working overtime had to result in some creative outlets, hence verbality.

    There’s a thin line between verbality and verbosity.

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    • Replies: @Ivy
    Hence attorneys paid by the word, er, by the hour.
  100. Ivy says:
    @Reg Cæsar
    There's a thin line between verbality and verbosity.

    Hence attorneys paid by the word, er, by the hour.

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  101. @KM32
    I don't know very many Iranians or Turks, but the Asian Americans I know of Chinese or Indian extraction seem as SWPL as they come within a single generation. It's only the first generation types who behave this way. Same goes for a (Coptic) Egyptian woman I knew who grew up in the Midwest. Her interests (theater, indie bands, social justice nonsense) are identical to those of a white American.

    OT, I remember having a discussion with her once where she talked about how her family had to flee Egypt because of violent attacks on her Coptic community. Yet on Facebook she's always posting pro-refugee stuff. Bizarre.

    OT #2 - What does it take to get trusted commenter status so that my posts appear immediately? I've been reading and posting here for years, yet they're always held up for moderation, sometimes for hours.

    Sending Steve money couldn’t hurt your chances

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  102. @Boomstick
    It's interesting that his sister, Mona Simpson, became a significant novelist. Two national figures from one biological family is surprising. She describes herself as a student: "a smart aleck who used to make jokes in class. I did get in trouble a lot when I was older and then I didn't like school so much anymore." That sounds Jobsian.

    I wonder how the mother/father mix played out.

    Jobs was so successful because he had two fathers. His biological father came from a
    very successful business family, while his adoptive father was a genius at creating things with his hands. If he had not been adopted then he wouldn’t have been able to combine these things.

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  103. @Anon
    "Pakis are going to have difficulty in western countries when the lower birth rate and isolation kick in. Theu are generally hated by women (as we hate black women) & they have never evolved charisma or game since their families married them off on stattus & connections, neither important to liberated women of the west."

    It all depends on their expectations. UK is filled with 'white trash'. If Pakis are happy with that kind of women, they got pick of the litter. And the US too. Just look at 'white trash' all around.

    The thing about educated whites and East Asians is they have higher expectations. So, that will will make them hesitate in choosing partners.

    Mexicans are economically lower than whites and asians, but they find mates and have kids cuz they don't shoot too high. If a gomerz finds a gomezess or vice versa, they are happy. They make tacos and watch tv, and that's life. And if their kids don't amount to much, that's okay too. They just like kids for kids's sake, not to be 'proud' of their kids as successes.

    My guess is Pakis aren't gonna shoot that high. They are like Mexicans of South Asia. And given the vast expansion of 'trash' population of all stripes in both UK and US, I don't see problem with them finding women.

    I mean the lower half of both society is in pretty dire straits.

    “UK is filled with ‘white trash’. If Pakis are happy with that kind of women, they got pick of the litter.”

    No they don’t, South Asians do even worse in the low IQ population. The competition for trashy white women are trashy white men and black men and trashy lower class white women put even higher value on superficial charisma, non-verbal displays like dancing and simple dominance. South Asian men do much, much worse than lower class whites or blacks in all that.

    That is why you see those Paki gangs grooming runaway children from broken drug addict and alcoholic families and that’s why you see them engage in extreme mate guarding like acid attacks on women who date out – the sexual market value of a low IQ South Asian man is so low that it’s completely pointless for most to even attempt to compete with lower class whites and blacks.

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  104. @Big Bill
    Do you have any knowledge of Jewish history? They had no music, or literature, or fashion, or anything that might be called "free spirited" or "creative". It wasn't until the the Jewish Enlightenment ("Haskala") that a few Jews broke free and tried to liberate their people by forcing them to learn "foreign" languages (e.g. Polish and Russian and German), and study such un-Jewish things as math, science, biology, etc. They were incredibly backward and un-Western, and they liked it that way, God bless 'em.

    The cultural revolutionary Jews (called "Maskalim") were fought tooth and nail by the traditional Jews, who saw the Jewish Enlightenment for what it was: a way to destroy the culture, religion, and society of Jews and turn them into mini-Westerners.

    The culture war still goes on, even in Israel. Revolutionary European Ashkenazi Jews of the 18th and 19th Century are a very recent development in Jewish history and by no means have won the fight. "Free-spirited" and "creative" is a recent development among a subset of cultural revolutionary Jews.

    Do you have any knowledge of Jewish history? They had no music, or literature, or fashion, or anything that might be called “free spirited” or “creative”. It wasn’t until the the Jewish Enlightenment (“Haskala”) that a few Jews broke free

    Music: chanting. There were/are intricate — and distinct — musical systems for chanting the Torah, the prophets, the Ten Commandments, and there are additional special systems for certain holidays. Different communities — Poland, Iraq, Yemen, Morocco — had their distinct styles. Look up “Torah trope”.

    Literature: look up “midrash”. It’s still being written, and goes back to a time when your ancestors were still swinging from branches.

    Fashion: you just have to pay attention to subtleties. Sure, it may all look “dark and drab” to you. But that’s a matter of perspective. Your daughter and her friends’ vast wardrobes might strike a hasidic observer as boring variations on a common theme of indecency.

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  105. @Ivy
    Re: Chinese male surplus: Black women face similar slim intragroup marriage prospects, what with all that murder and incarceration.

    Solution: send them to China to meet their new beaux.

    No way that would fly in China. A better solution; send all those surplus Chinese males to Africa. As long as these men are forbidden from bringing their African spouses and their progeny back to China, it’s a win-win for both sides. China gets rid of its surplus males, and Africa gets a slight IQ bump.

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    • Replies: @Ivy
    Just trying to find out who will do all those jobs that Americans won't do. Yet another opportunity is off-shored.
    , @Francis G.
    That is actually already being done. Soon there will be an entire Afrasian managerial class in many sub-Saharan nations. Funny how we see so little reporting on this trend in our media.
  106. Ivy says:
    @Hapalong Cassidy
    No way that would fly in China. A better solution; send all those surplus Chinese males to Africa. As long as these men are forbidden from bringing their African spouses and their progeny back to China, it's a win-win for both sides. China gets rid of its surplus males, and Africa gets a slight IQ bump.

    Just trying to find out who will do all those jobs that Americans won’t do. Yet another opportunity is off-shored.

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  107. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Francis G.
    I don't know if there is a complimentary equivalent of "eccentric" in East Asian languages, but there is something like the opposite of complimentary in the Japanese word chigau, which has two meanings: "different" and "wrong".

    English has that too: deviant.

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    • Replies: @Francis G.
    True, but chigau is the common, general word for both "different" and "wrong". Deviant has a special meaning in both senses. You wouldn't call someone a deviant merely for giving the wrong answer to a question, or merely for holding unconventional ideas. But the Japanese would label both as chigau and have difficulty explaining the difference between the two senses of the word. (I encountered a similar confusion when I asked some university students in Kyoto if a religious ritual that was being performed was Buddhist or Shinto. "What is the difference?" they asked me. Buddhist or Shinto, same thing. Different or wrong, same thing.)
  108. @Altai

    I was amazed to see their set of friends, couples all of whom were SA women and white men.
     
    Somebody I knew who did a PhD in San Diego in the late 90s once told me a story about how a friend of his went out on Valentines day on a date with his new Asian girlfriend, they chose a restaurant near the campus of the university and he was completely mortified to see that nearly every table had a white male, asian female couple.

    The beginnings of a new elite caste?

    But how would the caste perpetuate itself? Their offspring are mixed race. Would the future generations of mixed Asian/white people marry one another like the lighter skinned blacks have done? It doesn’t seem like you could have a caste if it continues to be white men and Asian women.

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  109. jim jones says:
    @PiltdownMan
    A colleague in Singapore explained it to me simply when I moved there.

    "What's Kiasu?"

    "Kiasu is the lady at the lunch buffet with sharp elbows."

    Malaysians despise the kiasu man:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Neh72fYfhHo

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  110. Thomas says:

    Not quite OT: on the topics of family and conformity, Steve Bannon’s apparent upcoming defenestration and Trump’s abandonment of his campaign promises are thanks to his kids’ desire to protect their nest egg, according to an anonymous “well-connected Republican operative.”

    Trump’s three oldest children — Donald Jr., Ivanka and Eric — and Kushner have been frustrated by the impression of chaos inside the White House and feel that their father has not always been served well by his senior staff, according to people with knowledge of their sentiments. The Trump heirs are interested in any changes that might help resuscitate the presidency and preserve the family’s name at a time when they are trying to expand the Trump Organization’s portfolio of hotels.

    “The fundamental assessment is that if they want to win the White House in 2020, they’re not going to do it the way they did in 2016, because the family brand would not sustain the collateral damage,” said one well-connected Republican operative, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss the president’s family. “It would be so protectionist, nationalist and backward-looking that they’d only be able to build in Oklahoma City or the Ozarks.”

    “Inside Bannon’s struggle: From ‘shadow president’ to Trump’s marked man,” The Washington Post, April 12, 2017, https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/inside-bannons-struggle-from-shadow-president-to-trumps-marked-man/2017/04/12/1f5aabc0-1f99-11e7-ad74-3a742a6e93a7_story.html

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    • Replies: @Clyde
    Very useful excerpt there and it is probably is true. It sounds logical, rings true though I have heard Don Jr. say things that are as alt-rightish as his father during the campaign.
  111. @Anon
    English has that too: deviant.

    True, but chigau is the common, general word for both “different” and “wrong”. Deviant has a special meaning in both senses. You wouldn’t call someone a deviant merely for giving the wrong answer to a question, or merely for holding unconventional ideas. But the Japanese would label both as chigau and have difficulty explaining the difference between the two senses of the word. (I encountered a similar confusion when I asked some university students in Kyoto if a religious ritual that was being performed was Buddhist or Shinto. “What is the difference?” they asked me. Buddhist or Shinto, same thing. Different or wrong, same thing.)

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  112. @Anonymouse
    Excellent piece, very suggestive.

    May I suggest that what is true is now may not be so in the future. I suggest that you are overlooking the gargantuan appeal of American culture, commercial and indigenous, to both children and adults, living here in the US and elsewhere, offering the prospect of individual personal choice over one's life that he/she would not have in traditional cultures. I don't have statistics to cite but it seems that an enormous number of the most physically attractive 2nd generation South Asian girls are dating and marrying sexy white guys. At least as regards dating/hanging out together, I see a great deal of that on the campus of the huge university campus here in Austin.

    Anecdote: we are friends with a couple, the wife Korean, the husband white. At a birthday party for little Quinn, their son, I was amazed to see their set of friends, couples all of whom were SA women and white men.

    Well, I’m white and my wife is Asian, so I can’t argue there’s not a trend ;)

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  113. @KM32
    I don't know very many Iranians or Turks, but the Asian Americans I know of Chinese or Indian extraction seem as SWPL as they come within a single generation. It's only the first generation types who behave this way. Same goes for a (Coptic) Egyptian woman I knew who grew up in the Midwest. Her interests (theater, indie bands, social justice nonsense) are identical to those of a white American.

    OT, I remember having a discussion with her once where she talked about how her family had to flee Egypt because of violent attacks on her Coptic community. Yet on Facebook she's always posting pro-refugee stuff. Bizarre.

    OT #2 - What does it take to get trusted commenter status so that my posts appear immediately? I've been reading and posting here for years, yet they're always held up for moderation, sometimes for hours.

    Being into indie bands or social justice politics are low investment hobbies that any urban liberal can get into.

    The big difference between whites and non-whites is that a far higher proportion of whites are engaged in hobbies that require a lot of time and effort. It’s rare for Asians to restore classic cars, scratch built model vehicles or organise pet shows, but pretty common for whites to engage in such hobbies.

    And even when Asians engage in similar hobbies to whites they tend to do so in a less involved way. For example, in Australia and New Zealand a lot East Asians like to go fishing by plonking a line or crab pot off the end of a wharf, but you rarely see an East Asian immigrant fly fishing in the mountains.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The Japanese have some pretty crazed hobbies. My son claims he saw Japanese who are into dressing up like Lil Abner characters in overalls and swigging from jugs marked XXX on their porches. Or something.
    , @Twinkie

    The big difference between whites and non-whites is that a far higher proportion of whites are engaged in hobbies that require a lot of time and effort. It’s rare for Asians to restore classic cars, scratch built model vehicles or organise pet shows, but pretty common for whites to engage in such hobbies.

    And even when Asians engage in similar hobbies to whites they tend to do so in a less involved way.
     
    What. Complete. Nonsense.

    As a rule, East Asian immigrants in Western countries might be too busy trying to make new lives for themselves and their children to engage in hobbies, but East Asians in East Asia with time and money go crazy for their hobbies. Indeed, they often get outlandishly obsessive about those hobbies. These hobbies may not be what YOU care about or are familiar with (e.g. restoring classic cars, fly fishing, etc.), but they are deadly serious about their own.
    , @Anonymous
    "It’s rare for Asians to restore classic cars, scratch built model vehicles or organise pet shows"

    Really at odds with common stereotype of the Japanese.
  114. @unpc downunder
    Being into indie bands or social justice politics are low investment hobbies that any urban liberal can get into.

    The big difference between whites and non-whites is that a far higher proportion of whites are engaged in hobbies that require a lot of time and effort. It's rare for Asians to restore classic cars, scratch built model vehicles or organise pet shows, but pretty common for whites to engage in such hobbies.

    And even when Asians engage in similar hobbies to whites they tend to do so in a less involved way. For example, in Australia and New Zealand a lot East Asians like to go fishing by plonking a line or crab pot off the end of a wharf, but you rarely see an East Asian immigrant fly fishing in the mountains.

    The Japanese have some pretty crazed hobbies. My son claims he saw Japanese who are into dressing up like Lil Abner characters in overalls and swigging from jugs marked XXX on their porches. Or something.

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    • Replies: @Francis G.
    It's called cosplay and it's made its way to the US and Australia now, although Whites aren't anywhere near as gung-ho about it as the Japanese are.
    , @Brutusale
    They have obsessions bordering on mania.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otaku

    Which is why the consensus judgment as to which scotch is the best in the world right now is something called Yamazaki.
  115. @Hapalong Cassidy
    No way that would fly in China. A better solution; send all those surplus Chinese males to Africa. As long as these men are forbidden from bringing their African spouses and their progeny back to China, it's a win-win for both sides. China gets rid of its surplus males, and Africa gets a slight IQ bump.

    That is actually already being done. Soon there will be an entire Afrasian managerial class in many sub-Saharan nations. Funny how we see so little reporting on this trend in our media.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Not as much as to make them the upper class of African countries and substitute the native ones. The idea of China flooding Africa or considering living there in considerable numbers is just talk. They are mostly sent by contract and africans actually prefer them than westerners because they won't try to stay and dictate what's good for them or not. It's all about paying for the job, building some infrastructure and going away.
  116. @Steve Sailer
    The Japanese have some pretty crazed hobbies. My son claims he saw Japanese who are into dressing up like Lil Abner characters in overalls and swigging from jugs marked XXX on their porches. Or something.

    It’s called cosplay and it’s made its way to the US and Australia now, although Whites aren’t anywhere near as gung-ho about it as the Japanese are.

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  117. Karl says:
    @JW Bell
    E-cigarettes were invented by a Chinese pharmacist, Hon Lik.

    54 JW Bell > E-cigarettes were invented by a Chinese pharmacist, Hon Lik.

    Our previous head of the Israel Navy (Eli Marom) had a Chinese mom. You could see it, very clearly.

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  118. Twinkie says:

    I wonder if there is a greater variance in male IQ in historical England than in China.

    Very good. This is a falsifiable proposition. Quick, someone do some research.

    On the other hand… Europeans, in general, have a greater genetic structure than East Asians do. Yet, at the same time, variance in cognitive ability among the latter seems to be greater (contrary to the pet speculation among white nationalists of the idea that whites have a cognitively better smart fraction).

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    • Replies: @Santoculto

    (contrary to the pet speculation among white nationalists of the idea that whites have a cognitively better smart fraction).
     
    So east asians have better smart traction for you Twink*

    Europeans, in general, have a greater genetic structure than East Asians do...
     
    Develop more please.

    Yet, at the same time, variance in cognitive ability among the latter seems to be greater
     
    Develop more.

    When people are talking about highly creative ones they are talking about a tiny % of population.


    The average british man psycho-cognitive features impacts this tiny % of highly creative individuals OR have a genetic/behavioral discontinuity*

    We already know that there is a close genetic and style relationship betwee psychosis-prone and creativity, whatever, every mental disorder seems increase creativity in some degree, adhd, bipolar disorder, autism, even anti-social personality, unipolar depression... in different facets of creativity.

    If i'm not wrong a very symmetric brain, brain hemispheres with very similar sizes, tend to be problematic to the mental health [via my illiterate or proto-neuroscience] but also to the creativity.

    Adhd is correlates with openess to novelty/ higher energy/''non-conformity'' and sense of humor that correlates with creativity,

    Bipolar disorder correlates with mood disorder/ highly and or intense discrepant mental states that correlates with creativity,

    Autism correlates with better attention to details and unusual obsessive interests that correlates with creativity,

    Anti-social personality correlates with attention to interpersonal details as well manipulative skills that correlates with creativity,

    Unipolar depression correlates with deep emotional state that correlates with creativity,

    Schizophrenia correlates with intense attention to the implicit information as well imagination out of control.
  119. Twinkie says:
    @unpc downunder
    Being into indie bands or social justice politics are low investment hobbies that any urban liberal can get into.

    The big difference between whites and non-whites is that a far higher proportion of whites are engaged in hobbies that require a lot of time and effort. It's rare for Asians to restore classic cars, scratch built model vehicles or organise pet shows, but pretty common for whites to engage in such hobbies.

    And even when Asians engage in similar hobbies to whites they tend to do so in a less involved way. For example, in Australia and New Zealand a lot East Asians like to go fishing by plonking a line or crab pot off the end of a wharf, but you rarely see an East Asian immigrant fly fishing in the mountains.

    The big difference between whites and non-whites is that a far higher proportion of whites are engaged in hobbies that require a lot of time and effort. It’s rare for Asians to restore classic cars, scratch built model vehicles or organise pet shows, but pretty common for whites to engage in such hobbies.

    And even when Asians engage in similar hobbies to whites they tend to do so in a less involved way.

    What. Complete. Nonsense.

    As a rule, East Asian immigrants in Western countries might be too busy trying to make new lives for themselves and their children to engage in hobbies, but East Asians in East Asia with time and money go crazy for their hobbies. Indeed, they often get outlandishly obsessive about those hobbies. These hobbies may not be what YOU care about or are familiar with (e.g. restoring classic cars, fly fishing, etc.), but they are deadly serious about their own.

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    • Replies: @res
    Twinkie, this would have been much more educational if you had mentioned some of those East Asian hobbies. How do they compare to the stereotypically white hobbies mentioned?
  120. Twinkie says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Middle Easterners are just low IQ, and conformity is associated with low IQ. The low IQ stems from their practice of extreme cousin marraige (fathers brothers daughter).

    However, there have been plenty of unorthodox thinkers amongst Middle Easterners throughout history, i.e. their smart fractions. For example, see Taleb. Now yes, Levantine Christians aren't exactly fullcore Middle East, but the rate of cousin marriage amongst them is still far higher than in pretty much any European or East Asian country.

    East Asians however are stereotypically very conformist, but also very high IQ.

    Conclusion: Its a Caucasoid/Mongoloid difference, not a cousin marriage/no cousin marraige one.

    East Asians however are stereotypically very conformist, but also very high IQ.

    Conclusion: Its a Caucasoid/Mongoloid difference, not a cousin marriage/no cousin marraige one.

    Funny enough, the actual Mongols aren’t all that conformist. They tend to be quite independent and qurrelsome. So I tend to suspect agriculture (especially wet rice farming) as one of the major reasons why sedentary East Asians tend to be conformist.

    Then again, Scandinavians are probably the most conformist among Europeans, so may be it also has to do with cold weather/long winters/meager resources that require a high degree of conformity to survive as a group.

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    • Replies: @anon

    Funny enough, the actual Mongols aren’t all that conformist.
     
    more recently barbarian

    my bet is if a Chinaman or Korean invents fusion they'll have a Mongol* great grand-father

    *or other recently barbarian population
  121. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Lysander
    "...in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet."

    What? You were supposed to recognize that Juliet was wrong to fall in love with Romeo (who, at the beginning, was equally "in love" with Rosaline, and despondent because he can't have her.)

    I am totally at a loss as to how you've come to the conclusion that the modern form of marriage - chiefly, fall in love, get married, get divorced when you're no longer "in love" - extends back through Western history. Lack of travel restricted one's pool of possible mates, and "what will the family think" was every bit as important.

    I am totally at a loss as to how you’ve come to the conclusion that the modern form of marriage – chiefly, fall in love, get married, get divorced when you’re no longer “in love” – extends back through Western history.

    read hbdchick’s blog – it goes back c. 1000 years in Europe

    nb the divorce part is modern
    nb2 the landed elite were different i.e. they mostly had arranged marriages like most of the world

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  122. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Nico
    Interesting thoughts, but I don't think they match quite with the title. Consanguinity is not especially high in East Asia, though it is indeed sky-high all throughout the Muslim world (plus it has a depressive effect on IQ as well as on personality, pathology and physiology.

    That said, I do suspect the differential between love marriages and arranged marriages can be exaggerated, insofar as I don't suspect reasonably well-brought-up girls tend to choose husbands that are all THAT far off from what their fathers would want for them. There are now some 20 to 30 million more single Chinese men than single Chinese women: what will ultimately turn China into a nation of "haves" is not extension of prosperity to the rural masses but the fact that within a generation or two all poor Chinese girls will have married upwards, effectively leaving the pre-modern poor sector of their society entirely masculine and therefore destined to die out.

    but I don’t think they match quite with the title. Consanguinity is not especially high in East Asia

    not now, especially with increased urbanization but hbdchick’s blog suggests it was much higher in the recent past

    partly because it is high by default in rural populations unless it is culturally prevented e.g. by the church ban on cousin marriage in Europe. cultural encouragement simply makes it double plus high

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  123. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Andy
    Regarding this issue about conformity and eccentricity in Asian and Western Culture, there was a recent news item in the New York Times about the death of an American who had dedicated his life to study the music of the pygmies;

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/10/arts/music/louis-sarno-dead-studied-pygmies-music.html

    And I thought only Westerners would think this is something worth studying, no Asian would dedicate their life to study such esoteric subjects, as cultural conformity makes Asians center on very practical things, yet sometimes studying seemingly esoteric subjects can lead to real breakthroughs on general knowledge.

    no Asian would dedicate their life to study such esoteric subjects

    i think there is some truth in this general idea but it’s often greatly over stated imo.

    it’s going to be a question of percentages:
    - 1% of a billion 21st century Chinese is 10 million
    - 1% of 120 million Japanese is 120,000
    - 10% of 6 million 18th century English was 600,000
    so even at a ratio of 10 to 1 there’s going to be a lot of East Asian eccentrics.

    Personally i think the big difference is East Asians have been civilized longer than north Europeans and although barbarian genes are useful in small doses in certain situations civilization selects them out over time because of their negative side.

    In a nut shell barbarian genes are chaos and civilized genes are order and you need the right balance.

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    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @anon

    1% of 120 million Japanese is 120,000
     
    oops, should have been 1.2 million
  124. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @E.D
    Ashkenazi Jews practiced arranged marriages for centuries and they are creative and free spirited.

    Women were never completely free to select their "lovers" , there was always some saying on the netter by the patriarchy .

    Ashkenazi Jews practiced arranged marriages for centuries and they are creative and free spirited.

    but did they adopt the hajnal marriage model at some point and were they different after?

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  125. @Twinkie

    I wonder if there is a greater variance in male IQ in historical England than in China.
     
    Very good. This is a falsifiable proposition. Quick, someone do some research.

    On the other hand... Europeans, in general, have a greater genetic structure than East Asians do. Yet, at the same time, variance in cognitive ability among the latter seems to be greater (contrary to the pet speculation among white nationalists of the idea that whites have a cognitively better smart fraction).

    (contrary to the pet speculation among white nationalists of the idea that whites have a cognitively better smart fraction).

    So east asians have better smart traction for you Twink*

    Europeans, in general, have a greater genetic structure than East Asians do…

    Develop more please.

    Yet, at the same time, variance in cognitive ability among the latter seems to be greater

    Develop more.

    When people are talking about highly creative ones they are talking about a tiny % of population.

    The average british man psycho-cognitive features impacts this tiny % of highly creative individuals OR have a genetic/behavioral discontinuity*

    We already know that there is a close genetic and style relationship betwee psychosis-prone and creativity, whatever, every mental disorder seems increase creativity in some degree, adhd, bipolar disorder, autism, even anti-social personality, unipolar depression… in different facets of creativity.

    If i’m not wrong a very symmetric brain, brain hemispheres with very similar sizes, tend to be problematic to the mental health [via my illiterate or proto-neuroscience] but also to the creativity.

    Adhd is correlates with openess to novelty/ higher energy/”non-conformity” and sense of humor that correlates with creativity,

    Bipolar disorder correlates with mood disorder/ highly and or intense discrepant mental states that correlates with creativity,

    Autism correlates with better attention to details and unusual obsessive interests that correlates with creativity,

    Anti-social personality correlates with attention to interpersonal details as well manipulative skills that correlates with creativity,

    Unipolar depression correlates with deep emotional state that correlates with creativity,

    Schizophrenia correlates with intense attention to the implicit information as well imagination out of control.

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  126. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Jimi
    Razib Khan has pointed out that it only takes one generation to marry outside the family to erase genetic deficiencies accumulated over centuries of cousin marriage.

    This means that if IQs are equal and cousin marriages cause genetic conformity we ought to be seeing spikes in creativity in developing nations such as China. Also the modern elite classes of Middle Eastern countries should show increase in creativity as their offspring marry out.

    I suspect creativity is driven by western culture not just genetics. Do Eastern languages have a word like "eccentricity" to positively describe unusual behavior?

    it only takes one generation to marry outside the family to erase genetic deficiencies accumulated over centuries of cousin marriage.

    I don’t think that’s entirely true.

    It may be true of things like IQ depression if they are the result of homozygosity but what if cousin-marrying or exogamous cultures create different selective environments for lots of different traits over many generations?

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  127. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Twinkie

    East Asians however are stereotypically very conformist, but also very high IQ.

    Conclusion: Its a Caucasoid/Mongoloid difference, not a cousin marriage/no cousin marraige one.
     
    Funny enough, the actual Mongols aren't all that conformist. They tend to be quite independent and qurrelsome. So I tend to suspect agriculture (especially wet rice farming) as one of the major reasons why sedentary East Asians tend to be conformist.

    Then again, Scandinavians are probably the most conformist among Europeans, so may be it also has to do with cold weather/long winters/meager resources that require a high degree of conformity to survive as a group.

    Funny enough, the actual Mongols aren’t all that conformist.

    more recently barbarian

    my bet is if a Chinaman or Korean invents fusion they’ll have a Mongol* great grand-father

    *or other recently barbarian population

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  128. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @reiner Tor

    The US has been secretly allied with Isis* from the beginning (via CIA, Saudi, Qatar and Turkey).

    *in Syria but not in Iraq

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  129. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @L Woods
    Intelligence is the very last thing females select for.

    Intelligence is the very last thing females select for.

    imo, apart from cold hard cash (aka resources to keep any future chillens safe and fed) they like a good balance of brains and brawn (where brawn, looks etc = proxy for health)

    sucks to be you

    do you even lift brah?

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  130. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Winthorp
    Would say Chinese conformity is downstream from rice agriculture?

    Would say Chinese conformity is downstream from rice agriculture?

    farming generally imo

    nvbQ = centuries of primarily crop farming ancestry

    (nvbQ = not very barbarian Quotient)

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  131. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @FKA Max
    Joking aside, British really do have unique sense of humour

    Transatlantic survey of identical twins shows our taste for biting satire and withering one-liners is in the genes

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/joking-aside-british-really-do-have-unique-sense-of-humour-793491.html


    The results revealed that positive humour – saying funny things, telling jokes, a humorous outlook on life – was linked to genes and was shared by twins in the UK and US.

    However, negative humour – teasing and ridicule, as well as more offensive, racist or sexist forms of humour, together with self-disparaging humour – appeared to be genetically linked only in Britain.

    Dr Martin, from the University of Western Ontario, said the aim was to find out whether humour has a genetic basis. "In North American families, there was a genetic basis to positive humour, but negative humour seems to be entirely learned. Growing up in a family where negative humour was practised was important in the development of that sense of humour.

    "One theory is that these styles of humour are associated with other personality traits that probably have a genetic basis. Self-defeating humour tends to be highly correlated with neuroticism. People who tend to be more negative, depressed and anxious tend to use that kind of humour."

    The comedian Charlie Higson, who helped to create the hit TV series The Fast Show, said yesterday: "What they [Americans] don't understand is the British desire to keep putting themselves down, but they fully understand irony. Their humour is considerably more sophisticated than British humour. Look at their sitcoms – the level of wit and sophistication in Friends – we don't have anything to match that. Ours tend to be about silly people doing silly things, whereas in America, it's clever people doing clever things."

    David Brent may perhaps have another explanation: "There's a weight of intellect behind my comedy."
     

    However, negative humour – teasing and ridicule

    It’s the British version of Danish Jante Law imo

    https://ourhouseinaarhus.wordpress.com/2014/05/15/standing-out-in-denmark-discovering-the-jante-law/

    The researchers should see if these negative humor genes are in Danes too but don’t express the same way.

    It wouldn’t be surprising imo if the people who went to the US had less of that.

    if so it’d be
    – Jante Law gene x
    - humor gene y (possibly related to “agreeableness” somehow)
    and
    - Danes with x
    - UK starting with x and developing y as well for some reason so x + y
    - US immigration-filtered on the x so mostly y

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  132. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @anon

    no Asian would dedicate their life to study such esoteric subjects
     
    i think there is some truth in this general idea but it's often greatly over stated imo.

    it's going to be a question of percentages:
    - 1% of a billion 21st century Chinese is 10 million
    - 1% of 120 million Japanese is 120,000
    - 10% of 6 million 18th century English was 600,000
    so even at a ratio of 10 to 1 there's going to be a lot of East Asian eccentrics.

    Personally i think the big difference is East Asians have been civilized longer than north Europeans and although barbarian genes are useful in small doses in certain situations civilization selects them out over time because of their negative side.

    In a nut shell barbarian genes are chaos and civilized genes are order and you need the right balance.

    1% of 120 million Japanese is 120,000

    oops, should have been 1.2 million

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  133. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    It’s because europeans and their north american/oceanian offsprings worked both notions of intra-extended family and inter-individual relations that these societies really reached success over others. Europeans may have sought inter-individual more freely, able to choose the best partners, but the family and land values still spoke loud enough to keep things local, to choose independent people with still the same origin and values.
    East Asians, japanese in special, tend to value extended family much more than europeans, but in the last century they’ve accepted to adopt more individuality due to western influence and that helped them develop a lot their society and seek innovations. About hobbies for example, once you see the life of many japanese nowadays, you will find out they adopt many hobbies originated from themselves or adopted from european and american cultures and they end up working on them on many different angles.
    And it’s not like americans don’t have money or time to engage in hobbies, because japanese also has a hectic life, but shows some dead serious commitment to things they end up liking, no matter how weird they seem. Westerners nowadays and even before are also full of weird hobbies, but the commitment on them aren’t as obsessive.

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  134. @The Z Blog
    Having spent a lot of time around Arabs, I'm used to having someone I don't know calling out of the blue telling me he is Mustafa's cousin. Every Arab has more cousins than they can count. It really is mind boggling, but not to them.

    Conformity with Arabs is different from that with Asians. A good Arab programmer, for example, is going to be just as good at problem solving as a Euro programmer. Asians, in contrast have a narrowness that is difficult to fathom. They never think outside the box or color outside the lines. A great Chinese programmer will scrupulously code to the spec. I suspect it is why some of the greatest forgers have been Asians.

    That said, there is a stark difference between the Muslim Arabs and the Christian Arabs. It's often quite stunning. Muslim Arabs are often dangerously stupid. Westerners who work with them in the field have to take this into account. Christian Arabs seem to be a SD smarter.

    ……. there is a stark difference between the Muslim Arabs and the Christian Arabs. ……Christian Arabs seem to be a SD smarter.

    My experience as well.

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  135. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @unpc downunder
    Being into indie bands or social justice politics are low investment hobbies that any urban liberal can get into.

    The big difference between whites and non-whites is that a far higher proportion of whites are engaged in hobbies that require a lot of time and effort. It's rare for Asians to restore classic cars, scratch built model vehicles or organise pet shows, but pretty common for whites to engage in such hobbies.

    And even when Asians engage in similar hobbies to whites they tend to do so in a less involved way. For example, in Australia and New Zealand a lot East Asians like to go fishing by plonking a line or crab pot off the end of a wharf, but you rarely see an East Asian immigrant fly fishing in the mountains.

    “It’s rare for Asians to restore classic cars, scratch built model vehicles or organise pet shows”

    Really at odds with common stereotype of the Japanese.

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  136. res says:
    @Twinkie

    The big difference between whites and non-whites is that a far higher proportion of whites are engaged in hobbies that require a lot of time and effort. It’s rare for Asians to restore classic cars, scratch built model vehicles or organise pet shows, but pretty common for whites to engage in such hobbies.

    And even when Asians engage in similar hobbies to whites they tend to do so in a less involved way.
     
    What. Complete. Nonsense.

    As a rule, East Asian immigrants in Western countries might be too busy trying to make new lives for themselves and their children to engage in hobbies, but East Asians in East Asia with time and money go crazy for their hobbies. Indeed, they often get outlandishly obsessive about those hobbies. These hobbies may not be what YOU care about or are familiar with (e.g. restoring classic cars, fly fishing, etc.), but they are deadly serious about their own.

    Twinkie, this would have been much more educational if you had mentioned some of those East Asian hobbies. How do they compare to the stereotypically white hobbies mentioned?

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    • Replies: @Marina
    Japanese needlework is something else entirely. They have their own local forms, but they have also taken knitting and crochet to really impressive places most Western designers never considered. Think beautiful lace blouses crocheted from thread, gorgeous fitted renditions of traditional Irish and Scottish sweaters, and really unique stitch patterns. Despite being rather hard for people who don't know Japanese to understand, the books and patterns are highly sought after in the West and there are entire forums of American enthusiasts of Japanese knitting and crochet patterns.
  137. Marina says:
    @res
    Twinkie, this would have been much more educational if you had mentioned some of those East Asian hobbies. How do they compare to the stereotypically white hobbies mentioned?

    Japanese needlework is something else entirely. They have their own local forms, but they have also taken knitting and crochet to really impressive places most Western designers never considered. Think beautiful lace blouses crocheted from thread, gorgeous fitted renditions of traditional Irish and Scottish sweaters, and really unique stitch patterns. Despite being rather hard for people who don’t know Japanese to understand, the books and patterns are highly sought after in the West and there are entire forums of American enthusiasts of Japanese knitting and crochet patterns.

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  138. FKA Max says:
    @FKA Max

    with the historic English predilection for young lovers selecting their own mates (e.g., in the 1590s, Shakespeare didn’t have any doubt whom his paying customers would sympathize with when he put on Romeo and Juliet) perhaps leading to the famous English appreciation for individualism and eccentricity.
     
    The English seem to have best recognized the importance and power of humor as an easily testable proxy for identifying intelligence. Giving young women more say in the selection of their mate is likely highly eugenic. No other culture that I know of has a more subtle, sophisticated, i.e., highly developed/advanced sense of humor and humor culture than the English:

    My point is mostly, that we can, and, most importantly, probably should, voluntarily, evolve/adapt into and adopt more peaceful, caring, and maybe more humorous ways of competing for mates; instead of bashing each other’s heads in. This would probably also help to select for higher intelligence, instead of selecting for high testosterone/aggression and/or the “warrior gene” ( i.e. anti-social/psychopathic behavior), which would be very eugenic and generally terrific, in my opinion.
    [...]
    Forty years ago, scientists were already asking this question. Hauck and Thomas, testing eighty elementary-level students, found a very high correlation between humour and intelligence (r = .91), but, of course, that was back in 1972.
    [...]
    Clarke defines humour in terms of pattern recognition–our ability to understand relationships and impose order on competing stimuli. “An ability to recognise patterns instantly and unconsciously has proved a fundamental weapon in the cognitive arsenal of human beings.”

    Recognising patterns enables us to quickly understand our environment and function effectively within it. Language, which is unique to humans, is based on patterns. And humour, conveniently enough, is based on language. - http://www.opencolleges.edu.au/informed/features/intelligence-humour-are-smart-people-funnier/
     

    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/lifestyle-advice/#comment-1807910

    Christopher Hitchens: Why Women Still Aren’t Funny

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7izJggqCoA


    This is another interesting theory, that somewhat refutes/contradicts Clyde’s claim, that males are the only sex engaging in competition for mates, and enjoying it. Women do too, just in different and more subtle ways. And they really and genuinely seem to enjoy the competition/fashion as well, so this competitive spirit might be hardwired into them as well.

    I think a world with fewer wars and fewer fashion trends would be a better world. But that is just me…
    [...]
    So, that is my theory: that the fact that modern British women are more interested in fashion than men is down to a person’s ability to narrow the field of competition by excluding outsiders from the in-group of rivals. In my childhood, there were very few fashion magazines for men, and these generally dealt with the very up-market end of fashion, since only rich men were getting more mates through fashion. Today, marriage seems to be a fair bit less monogamous, and pre-marital sex is so common, that men have started to show some, but not much, interest in fashion.
     

    - http://www.unz.com/jthompson/lifestyle-advice/#comment-1808899

    If it proves to be the case after controls, that would raise the question of what lead to selection for or non-removal of such traits and genes.

    In China the explanation is likely this (the same selection pressures could have applied to the Jewish community/population). Article by Mr. Unz:

    How Social Darwinism Made Modern China
    A thousand years of meritocracy shaped the Middle Kingdom.

    http://www.unz.com/runz/how-social-darwinism-made-modern-china-248/

    Remarkable Upward Mobility But Relentless Downward Mobility
    [...]
    At the same time, the wealthiest villagers sometimes could afford multiple wives or concubines and regularly produced much larger numbers of surviving offspring.
    [...]
    Genghis Khan very, very likely was a carrier of the low-activity MAOA allele, the “warrior gene.”

    1 in 200 Men Direct Descendants of Genghis Khan

    These civilizations were dominated by powerful men, who could accrue to themselves massive surpluses, and translate those surpluses into reproductive advantage. This was not possible in the hunter-gatherer world where reproductive variance was constrained by the reality that allocation of resources was relatively equitable from person to person.
    [...]
    Over the past 200 years the pendulum has started to shift back, thanks to the spread of Western values and normative monogamy, which dampens the potential unequal reproductive outcomes between the rich and the poor.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/iq-does-not-exist-lead-poisoning-aside/#comment-1835586

    It seems that very harsh and “Social Darwinist” environments and cultures do not necessarily select for intelligence exclusively, or maybe not even predominately, but that they mostly select for risk taking, aggressiveness, ruthlessness, i.e., psychopathic and rather anti-social traits. This has wide-ranging implications and consequences for our World and in particular for the (white) West when it comes to immigration; even or particularly when it comes to mass-immigration of high(er) IQ but also high(er) PQ people from China, etc. into Western cultures and nations, particular into more altruistic, individualistic, trusting(less corrupt, less cut-throat, less Social Darwinist) Protestant/Northern European cultures and nations

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/iq-does-not-exist-lead-poisoning-aside/#comment-1836006

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  139. Interbreed Harvard students who get straight-As in Intersectionality Studies and Finance. Interbreed these shallow climbers for 10 generations. Result: not The Royal Society, but a Mandarin class. Issac who?

    Thank goodness that assortive mating trend isn’t happening.

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  140. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Francis G.
    That is actually already being done. Soon there will be an entire Afrasian managerial class in many sub-Saharan nations. Funny how we see so little reporting on this trend in our media.

    Not as much as to make them the upper class of African countries and substitute the native ones. The idea of China flooding Africa or considering living there in considerable numbers is just talk. They are mostly sent by contract and africans actually prefer them than westerners because they won’t try to stay and dictate what’s good for them or not. It’s all about paying for the job, building some infrastructure and going away.

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    • Replies: @Francis G.
    Some of them do marry native women, though, and since it is better to be a big fish in a little pond, many stay there. I don't see them becoming the ruling class any time soon, but their descendants could easily form a managerial class. It will be interesting to watch over the next few decades.
  141. @Anonymous
    Not as much as to make them the upper class of African countries and substitute the native ones. The idea of China flooding Africa or considering living there in considerable numbers is just talk. They are mostly sent by contract and africans actually prefer them than westerners because they won't try to stay and dictate what's good for them or not. It's all about paying for the job, building some infrastructure and going away.

    Some of them do marry native women, though, and since it is better to be a big fish in a little pond, many stay there. I don’t see them becoming the ruling class any time soon, but their descendants could easily form a managerial class. It will be interesting to watch over the next few decades.

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  142. Boomstick says:
    @Stan Adams
    "Two national figures from one biological family" is not uncommon in many fields.

    OK, but they were two different fields, and they literally did not know each other or the parents that raised each of them.

    What’s a good list of sibling national figures? How many are in different fields?

    The Emanuels (Rahm, Ezekiel, and Ari, Ari in Hollywood, Rahm in politics, Ezekiel in MD)
    The Bennetts (Bill and Robert, both lawyers, Bill went off in a different direction after law school)

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    • Replies: @Stan Adams
    Bill Gates' father was one of the most prominent lawyers in Seattle. His mother was the president of the United Way.

    He married Melinda because his mother was terminally ill and wanted to see her son take a wife before she died.

    But, yeah, you make a good point.

  143. @KM32
    I don't know very many Iranians or Turks, but the Asian Americans I know of Chinese or Indian extraction seem as SWPL as they come within a single generation. It's only the first generation types who behave this way. Same goes for a (Coptic) Egyptian woman I knew who grew up in the Midwest. Her interests (theater, indie bands, social justice nonsense) are identical to those of a white American.

    OT, I remember having a discussion with her once where she talked about how her family had to flee Egypt because of violent attacks on her Coptic community. Yet on Facebook she's always posting pro-refugee stuff. Bizarre.

    OT #2 - What does it take to get trusted commenter status so that my posts appear immediately? I've been reading and posting here for years, yet they're always held up for moderation, sometimes for hours.

    Two Words:

    “Panhandling Effect.”

    It’s quite similar to Butterfly Effect, but this one works in moderatedly- whim sical way:

    “Every dollar that you have foolishly wasted on your brand new, by the unicorn tears coated, Nordstrom kayak creates budgetary black hole in some two thousand square feet big multidimensional portal in Sherman Oaks , Ca.”

    By every single swing of your platinum-plastic, pocket winglet, you, my friend, are creating The Chaos…

    Domesticly made and out of warranty dishwashers, handowner’s hastily installed garage door openers, questionable 80′s color palette window dressings, crookedly chatty chandeliers, gargantually loud garbage dispensers, little brave toasters ( or any other kitchen small appliances ), double-cross-dressing Hoovers, and mid- sized Japanese conceived automotive companions are first to be affected by this misterious force.

    Not to mention a shiny, artsy-fartsy chrome door knobs

    People even get divorced over such sh*t!

    https://youtu.be/IBm6ld4wpGY

    Some well-seasoned, and well-reasoned
    members of the commentariat would from time to time deepthrow newcomer about 7 Ancient Ways to prevent Curse of Panhandling Effect:

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/leaning-precipitously/

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  144. Brutusale says:
    @Steve Sailer
    The Japanese have some pretty crazed hobbies. My son claims he saw Japanese who are into dressing up like Lil Abner characters in overalls and swigging from jugs marked XXX on their porches. Or something.

    They have obsessions bordering on mania.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otaku

    Which is why the consensus judgment as to which scotch is the best in the world right now is something called Yamazaki.

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  145. @Boomstick
    OK, but they were two different fields, and they literally did not know each other or the parents that raised each of them.

    What's a good list of sibling national figures? How many are in different fields?

    The Emanuels (Rahm, Ezekiel, and Ari, Ari in Hollywood, Rahm in politics, Ezekiel in MD)
    The Bennetts (Bill and Robert, both lawyers, Bill went off in a different direction after law school)

    Bill Gates’ father was one of the most prominent lawyers in Seattle. His mother was the president of the United Way.

    He married Melinda because his mother was terminally ill and wanted to see her son take a wife before she died.

    But, yeah, you make a good point.

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  146. @anon
    Pakis are going to have difficulty in western countries when the lower birth rate and isolation kick in. Theu are generally hated by women (as we hate black women) & they have never evolved charisma or game since their families married them off on stattus & connections, neither important to liberated women of the west.

    The evolution of charm / charmlessness is very interesting. The most charming come from countries where courtship and love marriage are common. The setting of Romeo and Juliet is Italy – which has almost an over-abundance of charmers. The wit of the English is another example. Pakistanis, descended from generations of arranged marriages, are utterly charmless. Which is probably why they rape children in the UK. They would be completely unable to charm a real women.

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  147. Clyde says:
    @Thomas
    Not quite OT: on the topics of family and conformity, Steve Bannon's apparent upcoming defenestration and Trump's abandonment of his campaign promises are thanks to his kids' desire to protect their nest egg, according to an anonymous "well-connected Republican operative."

    Trump’s three oldest children — Donald Jr., Ivanka and Eric — and Kushner have been frustrated by the impression of chaos inside the White House and feel that their father has not always been served well by his senior staff, according to people with knowledge of their sentiments. The Trump heirs are interested in any changes that might help resuscitate the presidency and preserve the family’s name at a time when they are trying to expand the Trump Organization’s portfolio of hotels.

    “The fundamental assessment is that if they want to win the White House in 2020, they’re not going to do it the way they did in 2016, because the family brand would not sustain the collateral damage,” said one well-connected Republican operative, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss the president’s family. “It would be so protectionist, nationalist and backward-looking that they’d only be able to build in Oklahoma City or the Ozarks.”
     
    "Inside Bannon’s struggle: From ‘shadow president’ to Trump’s marked man," The Washington Post, April 12, 2017, https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/inside-bannons-struggle-from-shadow-president-to-trumps-marked-man/2017/04/12/1f5aabc0-1f99-11e7-ad74-3a742a6e93a7_story.html

    Very useful excerpt there and it is probably is true. It sounds logical, rings true though I have heard Don Jr. say things that are as alt-rightish as his father during the campaign.

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  148. colm says:
    @Anon

    rightful husband
     
    Right, because marriage is sacramental. You're supposed to understand Romeo and Juliet, and, of course, sympathize, but, especially with Romeo, you're also supposed to think: "What are you doing, you idiot?". Father Lawrence is the voice of reason here.

    I don't see the ending as chastising the parents for refusing the marriage (which they actually haven't done), but for the ongoing feud that has made Verona impossible to live in and killed the children of the principal parties. Of course that's open to interpretation.

    No commentator on R&J ever analyzed upon Benvolio, who excuses himself during the whole mess and becomes the sole survivor of both families, which means he will be the big honcho when the Duke, who lost 2 promising relatives, passes on.

    Benvolio is the big winner of R&J, just like Fortinbras in Hamlet and Albany in Lear.

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