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Confederate Statues and the Glamor of Losing
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Traditionally, America is mostly about winning (“Americans love a winner, and will not tolerate a loser.” — G.S. Patton, 1944). So the most famous losers in American history, the Confederates honored in the statues being torn down, had a countercultural glamor. As a Canadian observer of America noted:

Virgil Caine is the name, and I served on the Danville train
‘Till Stoneman’s cavalry came and tore up the tracks again …

Like my father before me, I will work the land
Like my brother above me, who took a rebel stand
He was just eighteen, proud and brave, but a Yankee laid him in his grave
I swear by the mud below my feet,
You can’t raise a Caine back up when he’s in defeat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_ksYL26lZE

But Americans are not terribly appreciative anymore of ambiguity or ambivalence.

 
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  1. The Band…
    RIP Levon and Richard.

    • Replies: @G Pinfold
    Richard Manuel and Rick Danko, I meant to say.
    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    The thing that always struck me as very unusual about The Band was that their main songwriter and most high profile member, Robertson, contributed so little to their actual recorded sound. His guitar playing was unremarkable, and I don't think he ever sang at all - not even background. I've heard that the other members were ticked off that Scorcese's documentary focused so much on him, and I think they had a point.
  2. There is a beautiful statue dedicated to the Confederate soldiers near the heart of Alexandria VA. I expect the leftist are eyeing it and will look to remove it soon.

    Thanks for sharing that great song, Steve. The Band did a terrific version, as well.

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    "The Band did a terrific version, as well." Robbie Robertson wrote it. Levon Helm sung a superior version to Baez. Don't know why Steve linked the Baez version. Zac Brown Band does a better version as well.
  3. @G Pinfold
    The Band...
    RIP Levon and Richard.

    Richard Manuel and Rick Danko, I meant to say.

    • Replies: @iffen
    Levon Helms is also deceased.
  4. Interesting idea. But is it really true that the US as a whole never commemorates a defeat? What about the Vietnam Wall in Washington? And think about all those songs and movies about Vietnam? What is that if not commemorating a defeat?

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Seamus, the Vietnam Memorial honors those who died in the conflict/war. "Tora, Tora, 'Tora'" is a movie about the Japanese attack, successful I might add, on the Pacific Naval base at Pearl Harbor. Hollywood made that movie, not the Japanese, but I don't think it commemorates the defeat, but rather portrays the event. Not trying to split hairs.
  5. Let us never lose sight of the wise words of George Santana:

    “Those who cannot erase the past are condemned to repeat it.”

    joey

    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    Was that on the same album as Black Magic Woman?

    ; D

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij4gc8iBDaI

  6. • Replies: @Kylie
    A monument to chocolate.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    It would serve to expose the clefts in our society.
  7. I prefer the Band’s version in The Last Waltz, and particularly Levon Helm’s singing:

    It really is a great song.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    Yes, in that "Americana" genre with the Grateful Dead and a few others that, in retrospect, was so very brief.
    , @Father O'Hara
    Baez was a hero to the left yet she had no problem doing this song. It probably financed her retirement.
    Can you see Ariana Grande doing this?
    , @AnotherDad
    Agreed.

    Steve's usually dead on, but why put up the Joan Baez version especially for a song that starts "Virgil Caine is the name ..." when it's The Band's song and Levon Helm sings a believable Virgil Caine.
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican
    I vastly prefer Baez’s rendition. Though she somewhat muffed the lyrics, her voice is emotionally compelling, like she’s actually channelling the war-weary voice of “Virgil Caine.” Also her folk style arrangement is far more authentic to the character, unlike the Band’s arrangement (as posted) which is incongruently modern and jazzy, almost disrespectfully so.

    When Joan’s version gets to the chorus of men and women, there’s a perfect blend of pride and lament that reveals a community—“And all the bells were ringing / And all the people were singing”—which shares a mysterious and ineffable identity.

    By contrast, the Band’s performance is a bunch of dudes showing off their chops and having a good old time, with some incidental Civil War references.
    , @MEH 0910
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_They_Drove_Old_Dixie_Down#Creation_and_recording

    The last time the song was performed by Helm was in The Last Waltz (1976). Helm refused to play the song afterwards. Although it has long been believed that the reason for Helm's refusal to play the song was a dispute with Robertson over songwriting credits, according to Garth Hudson it was due to Helm's dislike for Joan Baez's cover version.[3]
     
  8. lyrics should be: “I swear by the blood below my feet.”

    That’s part of your answer – this wasn’t some battle in Grenada or even a Korean “conflict” level war. The casualties were about as many as in all other wars fought by American men combined, in a population that was 10 % the size of the present day’s.

    This War of Northern Aggression greatly affected 3 generations or so like nothing before or since. Another reason for the up-till-now great respect for the South is the knowledge of how well they fought against big odds to defend their countries for four years. The modern cntrl-left want to bury this history (note a song like this would never be “allowed” today). They are doing a pretty good job of it so far.

    • Agree: Kyle McKenna
    • Replies: @iffen
    War of Northern Aggression

    Give us a f***ing break!

    I think we should celebrate all Confederate holidays, including R. E. Lee's horse's birthday. Do you know what we should do on those holidays. We should exhume the body of a different fire-eater every year and hang the SOB, then re-bury him. (with proper honors of course)
  9. I don’t think anyone, including blacks, really cared about the Confederate flag until the 1990s. Even our pal, Morris Dees, was ok with it.

    • Agree: Travis
    • Replies: @Travis
    so true...I hung a confederate flag in my dorm room in 1987 at Rutgers University. not sure exactly why i did it, bought it on campus where they were selling posters and flags and stuff college kids hung on their walls. Just fought it was a cool looking flag and maybe I saw myself as a Rebel. Was a fan of the UNLV Running Rebels basketball team and grew up watching the Dukes of Hazard.
    , @John Derbyshire
    In June 2015 my wife and I took a tour of Civil War battlefields. All the Visitors Centers sold the Confederate flag in different sizes.

    Outside the Gettysburg center we saw a party of highschoolers who'd just bought a full-size one & were horsing around merrily, wrapping each other in it.

    The anti-flag campaign started just a few weeks later.
    , @Kylie
    They still don't care about the Confederate flag. But they finally recognized its usefulness in claiming it represents racists/haters/bigots (low-class whites) and as a trigger for their smug ("righteous") moral outrage.
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    I'd seen a rebel flag front license plate on black guy's Chevy Nova back in the late '70's, Johnny. It was nothing anyone had a problem with.
    , @guest
    I wore a Confederate flag t-shirt which vowed "The South Shall Rise Again" in high school on a dare in the late 90s, not thinking it would cause trouble but rather be a silly prank. It did cause a bit of commotion (I got pulled into a class or two so people could laugh at it), but most of the day nothing happened. Then a teacher ordered me to cover it up. Maybe because he thought it would offend the 2.5 black students.

    More likely, he just assumed I wasn't able to wear anything like that. Same way he'd assume I couldn't wear a shirt displaying graphic sexual images, probably.
  10. 100-odd years later:

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    see also:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkWGYydqjxM
  11. I don’t see why we need to honor racists and traitors.

    Germany doesn’t celebrate nazis

    Demographic change and the end of white male supremacy cannot come fast enough

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Tiny? Is that you or Nick?
    , @Massimo Heitor

    Demographic change and the end of white male supremacy cannot come fast enough

     

    This is quite overtly racist and mean spirited. You are a racist for cheering large demographic shrinkage of a race that you dislike

    I don’t see why we need to honor racists and traitors.
     
    You are overtly racist...

    Germany doesn’t celebrate nazis

     

    Nor, did they celebrate Islam either, until very recently.
  12. I don’t think the core behind the Lincoln presidency and the Union war effort and Reconstruction ever could acknowledge ambiguity, much less the fact that perhaps they acted in ways less than unquestionable. The ‘truce’ came about because they realized that all the recent Catholic immigrants meant that they required allies against that democratic threat. So they magnanimously pretended to forget and have all good will so that the Protestant South would not feel compelled to rush into alliance with the Catholic immigrants.

    Once the Yankee WASP Elites cemented their alliance with Jews and managed to bribe a growing number of rich Catholics to beg to be admitted to their club, they no longer needed the conservative South.

    And then it was time to re-start the war against white Southerners and all things culturally Southern.

    • Replies: @Patrick Harris
    But the coalition between white Southerners and mostly Catholic immigrants *was* the basis for the Democratic Party until roughly midcentury (the original "coalition of the fringes," if you will). The GOP was always the party of the American "core," (though until the 30's they were also the party of Blacks), it's just that what that means has changed dramatically as a result of shifting demographics and the cultural upheaval of the 60's.
    , @Luke Lea
    "I don’t think the core behind the Lincoln presidency and the Union war effort and Reconstruction ever could acknowledge ambiguity . . ."

    Maybe not the Radical Republicans, but Lincoln certainly could and did. Somewhere he remarks (can't remember where exactly) that if the people of the North had been born into the same situation as the people of the South, they would have felt the same way about slavery. As probably would any people whose whole system of property was tied up in it. And then too Dixie was one of Lincoln's favorite tunes.

  13. There’s a statue of Ollie Cromwell in Westminster, which is remarkable really given the way he treated Parliament and King.

    • Replies: @BB753
    Would you say Cromwell won posthumously, a number of centuries after his defeat (actually after his son's)?
    , @Weltanschauung
    In fact there are four public statues to Oliver Cromwell in England, none older than the reign of Queen Victoria, the first monarch to definitively withdraw from politics. Under her predecessors, any subscriber to a Cromwell statue would have found his social and professional advancement impeded. At the Restoration, Cromwell's corpse had been disinterred and hanged on the gallows at Tyburn, after which the head was cut off and exhibited on a spike outside Parliament.

    So in England, with the passage of time, ferocity gave way to magnanimity. America seems to be going in the opposite direction.
  14. I would assume the Canadians spell it “glamour”

  15. the Glamor of Losing

    In a multitude of ways, America embraces the loser, e.g. the various refugee groups we can’t get enough of are losers of various turf battles back home; plus the usual panoply of disadvantaged minorities on which we shower love and attention are viewed as life’s losers in need of a boost to close the gap.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    Re: America will not tolerate a loser

    On the contrary, America has always been
    described as a country of second chances.
    E.g., millions of Midwesterners moved to
    California in the 1930s, '40s, and '50s to
    improve their lot in life, and indeed
    achieved a level of affluence
    they never dreamed was possible.

    Kevin Starr (who died recently) wrote about it
    in his magnificent multivolume history of
    California. Unfortunately, his book series ends
    in 1964, and then picks up again in the '90s.
    He completely left out the period from 1965 to
    about 1990. He said he didn't understand the '60s or '70s
    at all, and so he couldn't write about them. Interestingly,
    he was born in 1940 so he wasn't much older than the Beatles
    or the Stones, and yet felt he was on the other side of the
    Generation Gap during the Sixties

  16. Excellent song. Excellent album. Excellent movie. The Last Waltz.

  17. The South has been allowed to mourn its loss and honor its history since the war, and the nation accepted it at least grudgingly and sometimes even openly (Dukes of Hazard, etc.). Only now, fully 152 years after the end of the war, has it suddenly become evil to do so.

    It just goes to show how powerful political correctness, and the desire to silence and suppress anyone with conservative opinions on *anything* has become among the fascists on the Left.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic

    The South has been allowed to mourn its loss and honor its history since the war, and the nation accepted it at least grudgingly and sometimes even openly (Dukes of Hazard, etc.). Only now, fully 152 years after the end of the war, has it suddenly become evil to do so.
     
    When the Dukes of Hazzard (and Smokey and the Bandit, and TransAms, Firebirds, etc.) were popular the US was over 80% white, and we were younger and meaner. Now, those ornery Southerners are quiet old men in a country that's 60+% white and dropping.

    Change the people, change the culture.
    , @Harry Baldwin
    True, and interesting because you'd think the sequence would be the opposite--"time heals all wounds," but not when there's axes to be ground. In the early 1960s, at the centennial of the Civil War, there was a craze for it among my childhood peers, who collected Civil War cards, which were sold like baseball cards, in packets with gum. Confederates were more glamorous than Yankees. You could buy imitation rebel caps and some kids wore them to school.

    Something of the same happened with World War II (European Theater), where in the 1960s it was all right to joke about stupid Nazis in "Hogan's Heroes" and The Producers. No humor to be mined in that vein anymore.

    , @anonymous
    And all coincident with the rise of the Coalition of The Fringes whose bible consists of "The Narrative."

    And woe betide anyone who tries to challenge The Narrative.

    , @Daniel Chieh
    But Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
  18. “But Americans are not terribly appreciative anymore of ambiguity or ambivalence.”

    I’d actually liken it to what’s happening with Oscar Rivera. With the end of the Cold War, low crime and the fear of terrorism, it’s no longer cool to admire underdogs with a history of terrorism. Well, not TOTALLY cool, as Bill De Blasio was forced to acknowledge. Similarly, with greater racial equality and a more diverse nation, its harder to just overlook that whole slavery thing while romanticizing the Lost Cause.

    It’s not that people no longer tolerate ambiguity or ambivalence. It’s just that they currently don’t find slavery or terrorism or crime all that ambivalent, and are acting accordingly. On the other hand, they’re probably a lot more ambivalent about drug use or adultery. Hence Clinton, GWB, Obama and Trump.

  19. The current cultural jihad against Dixie has two heat sources:

    (1) Urban politicians need a diversion from all their problems

    (2) The blue team political party is punishing the white Southerner for ditching the blue team

    • Replies: @Thirdtwin
    (3) Too many Yankees came south after the invention of air conditioning.
  20. Could be worse. My people consider themselves fatalists and one of our most important bits of collected folklore is a ballad about a shepherd migrating with his sheep for winter who picks up some companions with their flocks. And one of his sheep is magical and starts telling him that the other guys are planning to kill him to take his flock. You would expect some sort of confrontation and denouement, with some magic elements, but the rest of the ballad is the shepherd dictating his last will and testament to the incredulous sheep and then daydreaming about his death and its resemblance to a wedding. His fate is left unknown.

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    That's really strange material for a folk song.
    , @Harry Baldwin
    Reminds me of this recent Vox Day post about the Japanese:
    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/06/no-wonder-they-kill-themselves.html
  21. William Hartwell Pewitt — 20th Tennessee Infantry

    My father looked like Nathan Bedford Forrest. He was much less violent and maybe smarter than Forrest.

    President Trump’s strategy of combining the Southern Anglo-Celts with the WOMP state Germans was the hidden story of 2016. President Trump is 1/2 German and 1/2 Scottish.

    German Strategy and Southern Strategy worked for President Trump. Hungover Hillary was too damn drunk to go out to Wisconsin. What a dope!

    WOMP — Wisconsin, Ohio, Michigan, Pennsylvania

  22. Levon Helm is a musician, a great one in my opinion. Not so, Joanie Phony.

  23. @Romanian
    Could be worse. My people consider themselves fatalists and one of our most important bits of collected folklore is a ballad about a shepherd migrating with his sheep for winter who picks up some companions with their flocks. And one of his sheep is magical and starts telling him that the other guys are planning to kill him to take his flock. You would expect some sort of confrontation and denouement, with some magic elements, but the rest of the ballad is the shepherd dictating his last will and testament to the incredulous sheep and then daydreaming about his death and its resemblance to a wedding. His fate is left unknown.

    That’s really strange material for a folk song.

    • Replies: @Hanoi Paris Hilton
    Forget it, Jake. It's Romania!
  24. Man, I know you guys hate People of Color but damn

    Why would ANYONE tolerate the “memory” of traitors and racists if not evil themselves?

    This is why demographic change is a NECESSITY

    • Replies: @fish
    Hey... knock a self a pro, Slick! That gray matter backlot perform us DOWN, I take TCB-in', man!

    -Leonard Pitts
  25. The War Between the States — The big counter-example to the trope that “winners write history”.

    Which explains why somebody or other is still fighting to erase that history over a century and a half later.

    • Replies: @dearieme
    Another example is the history about the Vikings - written mainly by the monks they pillaged.
  26. I had been wondering for some time when they would outlaw listening to the “The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down.”

    I now know that am not alone, so the time is probably upon us for the ban.

    Better to purge that song than have an open discussion about segregation in Manhattan schools, though.

  27. Google “rolling stones alamo” and check out the images.

  28. It crosses my mind, in an imprecise way, that the current liberal hatred of Russia, a country and culture that dwells on its historical hardships, is not dissimilar to the liberal hatred of the mourning that the South expresses for a lost cultural past. They hate poetic loserdom or, as Steve more perceptively and succinctly puts it, ambivalence and ambiguity.

    • Replies: @Numinous

    It crosses my mind, in an imprecise way, that the current liberal hatred of Russia, a country and culture that dwells on its historical hardships, is not dissimilar to the liberal hatred of the mourning that the South expresses for a lost cultural past.
     
    Per my understanding, the South was nor mourning a lost cultural past, but rather its failed attempt at preserving and expanding a slave society. After all, if they hadn't tried to secede, they could have remained in the Union, kept their old culture, and periodically blackmailed the North into accepting their demands (pretty much what happened throughout the first half of the 19th century.) But that wasn't enough for them. They fought, they lost, and they should have moved on. Why the rest of the country tolerated their attempts at celebrating rebellion and treason beats me. Now, if the descendants of slaves weren't still residing in the country, perhaps this "mourning" would not be a big deal. But they are!

    I don't see a valid comparison with Russia here. I'm a liberal, and I have no idea why American liberals have decided to wage a jihad against that country in cahoots with neocons. There's no Russian equivalent of mourning for a slave society. It's not even that Putin is celebrating Communism; he's shown no signs of wanting to bring back the Politburo. If Russia seems revanchist in any way when it comes to its neighbors, it's purely a reaction to NATO's overreach. But nothing Russia is doing or has done comes close to the immorality of the Confederacy's ultimate goal: to keep people permanently in bondage.
    , @Autochthon
    I reckon they most hate indomitable perseverence. They demand acquiesence and obeisance; they demand, and want more than anything else, more than even victory and dominion itself, for the vanquished to kiss their rings.

    The shared characteristics of the Russianan and us unrehabilitated Southerners is defiance and perseverenve even folling defeat. In our own case, even killing our sons and taking our lands was not enough because we keep being Southerners, and that won't do. The destruction of the monuments and the prohibition of the flags, the very obliteration of history, is meant to do what no army can do to a resolute people: destroy its spirit, culture, and identity.

    The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.
    , @Bill

    They hate poetic loserdom or, as Steve more perceptively and succinctly puts it, ambivalence and ambiguity.
     
    Next year in Jerusalem.
    , @Charles Pewitt
    Anti-Russian propaganda from the Democrats is nothing more than pseudo-nationalist claptrap. The Democrats have gone full-bore globalizer, and to cover that they are attempting to sound somewhat nationalist by their attacks on Putin and Russia. It is a total fraud.

    The anti-White Democrats only represent some portion of upper middle class Whites, White government workers, White wackos and non-Whites. By default, the Republican Party gets the rest of the Whites.

    The coming Civil War II will be between the Whites who are patriotic and the Whites who push globalization. White government workers in the military and the police will be the key to winning Civil War II for the patriotic side. Attacks on Southern war heroes will give great motivation to White government workers to fight for their future by defending the honor of their past.
    , @Desiderius
    Dame Progress will bear no rival.
    , @Boethiuss
    "They hate poetic loserdom or, as Steve more perceptively and succinctly puts it, ambivalence and ambiguity."

    No no. It's not that _they_ hate ambiguity, it's _we_ that hate it. We'd rather go down in flames holding on to Donald Trump instead of actually trying to make a go of it in reality.
  29. On the other hand, “Miorita” gives Romanian folklore a single, uncomparable status within European folklore.
    My people relies on a story about a hero who was backstabbed and when his former wife tried to revenge him this led to a general disaster for both sides. More active – but rather gloomy, too.
    – I’ve often read that in old times – when educated boys played Greeks vs. Troians – every boy wanted to be Hector or at least a Troian. There’s something in us humans (men?) which likes losers.

  30. I thought this, too. The old hippie left accepted that not every southerner who fought was simply a racist. We’s all victims.

    Of course then you had Neil Young’s Southern Man. And Skynyrd’s response, Sweet Home Alabama.

  31. I am somewhat surprised we didn’t have bands of leftists running after the deposed southern statues hitting them with shoes.

  32. @Wilkey
    The South has been allowed to mourn its loss and honor its history since the war, and the nation accepted it at least grudgingly and sometimes even openly (Dukes of Hazard, etc.). Only now, fully 152 years after the end of the war, has it suddenly become evil to do so.

    It just goes to show how powerful political correctness, and the desire to silence and suppress anyone with conservative opinions on *anything* has become among the fascists on the Left.

    The South has been allowed to mourn its loss and honor its history since the war, and the nation accepted it at least grudgingly and sometimes even openly (Dukes of Hazard, etc.). Only now, fully 152 years after the end of the war, has it suddenly become evil to do so.

    When the Dukes of Hazzard (and Smokey and the Bandit, and TransAms, Firebirds, etc.) were popular the US was over 80% white, and we were younger and meaner. Now, those ornery Southerners are quiet old men in a country that’s 60+% white and dropping.

    Change the people, change the culture.

    • Replies: @Richard
    "Dukes of Hazzard" and "Smokey and the Bandit" both debuted during the Carter years, when I think white Southerners briefly became respectable in liberal Hollywood because of their role in electing the first Democratic president since the Great Society foundered. Pre-Carter it was common for white Southerners to be savaged in films like "Easy Rider," "Deliverance" and "To Kill a Mockingbird" (despite the U.S. being whiter than it was in the late '70s) so population change doesn't seem sufficient to explain the change in attitudes.
    , @GSR
    Agreed. The elites wanted to change the "demographics" the ethnicity. They have succeeded through endless immigration.
  33. @slumber_j
    I prefer the Band's version in The Last Waltz, and particularly Levon Helm's singing:

    https://youtu.be/jREUrbGGrgM

    It really is a great song.

    Yes, in that “Americana” genre with the Grateful Dead and a few others that, in retrospect, was so very brief.

  34. @Wilkey
    The South has been allowed to mourn its loss and honor its history since the war, and the nation accepted it at least grudgingly and sometimes even openly (Dukes of Hazard, etc.). Only now, fully 152 years after the end of the war, has it suddenly become evil to do so.

    It just goes to show how powerful political correctness, and the desire to silence and suppress anyone with conservative opinions on *anything* has become among the fascists on the Left.

    True, and interesting because you’d think the sequence would be the opposite–“time heals all wounds,” but not when there’s axes to be ground. In the early 1960s, at the centennial of the Civil War, there was a craze for it among my childhood peers, who collected Civil War cards, which were sold like baseball cards, in packets with gum. Confederates were more glamorous than Yankees. You could buy imitation rebel caps and some kids wore them to school.

    Something of the same happened with World War II (European Theater), where in the 1960s it was all right to joke about stupid Nazis in “Hogan’s Heroes” and The Producers. No humor to be mined in that vein anymore.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Harry, I have a collection of at least 50 books on the Civil War. I still can't figure out what Lee was thinking at Gettysburg, an almost all or nothing battle, highlighted by Pickett's charge. A visit to the battlefield is required to get a sense of the three days of carnage. Civil War memorabilia, especially Confederate items, still brings very good money at the local Flea Market and Auctions. German WWII memorabilia brings good prices also. No humor, but people still collect these items.
    , @Crawfurdmuir

    True, and interesting because you’d think the sequence would be the opposite–”time heals all wounds,” but not when there’s axes to be ground.
     
    And why are the axes to be ground?

    The 1960s civil rights movement, as I remember it, was not concerned about Confederate monuments, the battle flag, etc. Its emphasis was on desegregating schools, public accommodations, and housing, and enabling blacks to vote. These aims were accomplished by judicial decrees and legislation. However, fifty years later, the altruistic goal of "integration," so often championed by 'sixties liberals, has not been achieved. While the removal of the civil disabilities blacks once endured has been very good for the "talented tenth" - there is a flourishing black elite - the not-so-talented nine-tenths of the black population has not prospered. Tom Sowell has pointed out that rates of illegitimate birth, welfare dependency, and incarceration are all higher among blacks today than they were in 1940, when Jim Crow prevailed in one-third of the country, and there were no anti-discrimination laws in the rest of it.

    Something must be to blame for this, mustn't it? And the self-appointed black leaders have decided that it's those Confederate statues. So down they must come, and the names of Confederate historical figures (and ante-bellum slaveholders such as Jefferson, Madison, or Jackson) must be excised from public buildings, streets, and parks. It is an act of damnatio memoriæ akin to the Jacobins' exhumation and destruction of the remains of the kings of France, and their chiseling of coats-of-arms from the façades of buildings, because these were reminders of the pre-revolutionary era.

    And when all this is done, will it have got any black person better employment, education, or other improvement in his material condition?
    , @Milo Minderbinder
    Peanuts for November 9 and 23, 1961. Charlie Brown, Linus and even Snoopy in rebel caps.

    http://peanuts.wikia.com/wiki/November_1961_comic_strips

    I can't even imagine the outrage if those strips were published today.
    , @Kylie
    "Something of the same happened with World War II (European Theater), where in the 1960s it was all right to joke about stupid Nazis in 'Hogan’s Heroes' and The Producers. No humor to be mined in that vein anymore."

    Overheard at a Redbox kiosk last week: "You want to rent 'Soldiers of the Damned'? It's a WWII movie." "Nah, it'll just make the Nazis out to be the bad guys."
    , @kaganovitch
    "Something of the same happened with World War II (European Theater), where in the 1960s it was all right to joke about stupid Nazis in “Hogan’s Heroes” and The Producers. No humor to be mined in that vein anymore."

    I'm not so sure about that. That Hitler parody video that you can caption , from "Downfall" sure seems popular. I've even seen on several Yeshiva lists already.
    , @Anonymous Nephew
    Strange as it seems now, American Civil War bubblegum cards were also really popular with UK kids in the early 1960s. Even at the time they were pretty bloodthirsty, but nine year old boys like that.

    http://www.oldbubblegumcards.com/1960s/Civil-War-News/
  35. @Romanian
    Could be worse. My people consider themselves fatalists and one of our most important bits of collected folklore is a ballad about a shepherd migrating with his sheep for winter who picks up some companions with their flocks. And one of his sheep is magical and starts telling him that the other guys are planning to kill him to take his flock. You would expect some sort of confrontation and denouement, with some magic elements, but the rest of the ballad is the shepherd dictating his last will and testament to the incredulous sheep and then daydreaming about his death and its resemblance to a wedding. His fate is left unknown.

    Reminds me of this recent Vox Day post about the Japanese:
    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/06/no-wonder-they-kill-themselves.html

    • Replies: @Romanian
    Lol, maybe it's a vicious circle. But fatalism is different from suicide, and emphasizes a sort of serenity and stoic demeanor that is conducive to putting up with life, rather than ending it. Of course, it has its downsides when in excess, like apathy and complacency, which are also present in the political culture. Recently, a report said that both Bulgaria and Serbia have more kilometers of highway than Romania, despite having each a third of the territory, a third of the population and a lower GDP/capita (significantly lower for Serbia). The general consensus is that the bureaucracies are indolent and lazy, not willing to look for solutions when failure stares them in the face.

    I am mulling over the idea that maybe your taciturn Mexicans also have much lower suicide rates. Romania has one of the lowest in the region, according to the WHO. It's no. 103 and the Hungarians, who really are stereotyped as being likely to off themselves out of ennui or existential dread, are at no. 25. Japan is 26. Poland is 15. Almost all of the countries in the region rank lower than Romania, except for Greece, Montenegro and Albania. Wicked people might suggest that suicidal depression is correlated with IQ :)) The differences are even more important when looking at rates for men and women, separately, rather than the average. Women still kill themselves at much lower rates than men, but a more suicidal country has a larger multiple of women committing suicide than men compared to a less suicidal one. Hungarian men kill themselves at 50% higher rates than Romanian men, while the women kill themselves at almost 175% higher rates. Feminism?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
    , @Daniel Chieh
    I thought the comments to that missed understanding the traditional East Asian culture of seeing oneself as a part of a group, which is why suicide is far more acceptable/romantic. This is especially true of seeing it as an individualistic act, when it is at least largely associated with self-sacrifice. Its the ultimate self-sacrifice, of which smaller versions(such as living only for work, religion, etc.) are thus also seen as beautiful.
  36. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    If you can still find it Tom Petty did a music video of his song Rebels in which a large rebel flag was featured as the backdrop. He also grabbed a confederate flag and wrapped it around himself during the performance. That music video has pretty much been scrubbed from Youtube, though I have not searched for it exhaustively. I am sure it is out there somewhere.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    I liked that video a lot and I and Steve Sailer both commented on your observation about 5 months back, but I can't remember under what post (you know the way things go on here!). That video, last I looked, was a "permission required" video, as if it were a video of oriental bikini girls - a friend of mine has searched for those. So youtube wants info. on you to view this forbidden Rebel flag video. Now, I believe (again, from a friend) one can give bogus information though without any email that you must open.

    Do you think they want your info in order to round up the latent Rebels? Google thinks they are just helping to get things under control, but we will remember.
  37. @Wilkey
    The South has been allowed to mourn its loss and honor its history since the war, and the nation accepted it at least grudgingly and sometimes even openly (Dukes of Hazard, etc.). Only now, fully 152 years after the end of the war, has it suddenly become evil to do so.

    It just goes to show how powerful political correctness, and the desire to silence and suppress anyone with conservative opinions on *anything* has become among the fascists on the Left.

    And all coincident with the rise of the Coalition of The Fringes whose bible consists of “The Narrative.”

    And woe betide anyone who tries to challenge The Narrative.

  38. @PiltdownMan
    It crosses my mind, in an imprecise way, that the current liberal hatred of Russia, a country and culture that dwells on its historical hardships, is not dissimilar to the liberal hatred of the mourning that the South expresses for a lost cultural past. They hate poetic loserdom or, as Steve more perceptively and succinctly puts it, ambivalence and ambiguity.

    It crosses my mind, in an imprecise way, that the current liberal hatred of Russia, a country and culture that dwells on its historical hardships, is not dissimilar to the liberal hatred of the mourning that the South expresses for a lost cultural past.

    Per my understanding, the South was nor mourning a lost cultural past, but rather its failed attempt at preserving and expanding a slave society. After all, if they hadn’t tried to secede, they could have remained in the Union, kept their old culture, and periodically blackmailed the North into accepting their demands (pretty much what happened throughout the first half of the 19th century.) But that wasn’t enough for them. They fought, they lost, and they should have moved on. Why the rest of the country tolerated their attempts at celebrating rebellion and treason beats me. Now, if the descendants of slaves weren’t still residing in the country, perhaps this “mourning” would not be a big deal. But they are!

    I don’t see a valid comparison with Russia here. I’m a liberal, and I have no idea why American liberals have decided to wage a jihad against that country in cahoots with neocons. There’s no Russian equivalent of mourning for a slave society. It’s not even that Putin is celebrating Communism; he’s shown no signs of wanting to bring back the Politburo. If Russia seems revanchist in any way when it comes to its neighbors, it’s purely a reaction to NATO’s overreach. But nothing Russia is doing or has done comes close to the immorality of the Confederacy’s ultimate goal: to keep people permanently in bondage.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Your understanding of history strains agianst reality with a vigor matched only by those who earnestly believe Mohammedism was the indigneous religion of the Levant since time immemorial, peacefully cultivated by its inhabitants, until the arrival of nasty Christian invaders bent on world-domination because their religion was built upon the teachings of an ambitous warlord preaching violent conquest.

    Of course, you wrote it with far greater economy: "I'm a liberal."
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Yeah, you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. This is the kind of historical revisionism that we can look forward to if liberals take over. Just awesome.

    So yeah, if you actually read any Lost Cause material, you'll know that it was heavily involved not with the "peculiar institution" but the idea of state's rights. Sure, in reality, its very likely that had as much if not more to do with slavery than anything else.

    But by the time it had gotten romanticized, it already has "sanitized" itself and did indeed try to focus on cultural relics involved with agrarian existence, as well as the attitudes needed for it - honor and courage in defending land, the strong sense of independence, the notions of noblesse oblige and the shared values that were definitely not urban.

    To destroy all of that would be tragic. Really, to trade for a world of say General Robert E Lee's conflicted morality, skilled generalship under desperate conditions, and complex religious yet belligerent personality so that we have a world better for maximum numbers of gender-confused brainless boobs is sickening.

    We abuse what is noble and beautiful; we celebrate the freak and the degenerate.

    Progress.

    , @map
    You do understand that slavery was simply a cheap labor movement run by the Southern elites for the benefit of the Southern elites?

    You do realize that slavery was not something everyone did in their own homes, right?

    Getting invaded by the north to "free" slaves so they can run rampant all over the South was not a good deal for the average Southerner.
  39. @Wilkey
    The South has been allowed to mourn its loss and honor its history since the war, and the nation accepted it at least grudgingly and sometimes even openly (Dukes of Hazard, etc.). Only now, fully 152 years after the end of the war, has it suddenly become evil to do so.

    It just goes to show how powerful political correctness, and the desire to silence and suppress anyone with conservative opinions on *anything* has become among the fascists on the Left.

    But Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

    • LOL: James Richard
  40. @countenance
    The current cultural jihad against Dixie has two heat sources:

    (1) Urban politicians need a diversion from all their problems

    (2) The blue team political party is punishing the white Southerner for ditching the blue team

    (3) Too many Yankees came south after the invention of air conditioning.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Thirdtwin, Our neighbors moved to NC and joined a large group of ex-pat WNYers who bemoaned the loss of shopping at Wegmans. They moved to Cary, NC, which they said meant Containment Area for Relocated Yankees.
  41. @Harry Baldwin
    Reminds me of this recent Vox Day post about the Japanese:
    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/06/no-wonder-they-kill-themselves.html

    Lol, maybe it’s a vicious circle. But fatalism is different from suicide, and emphasizes a sort of serenity and stoic demeanor that is conducive to putting up with life, rather than ending it. Of course, it has its downsides when in excess, like apathy and complacency, which are also present in the political culture. Recently, a report said that both Bulgaria and Serbia have more kilometers of highway than Romania, despite having each a third of the territory, a third of the population and a lower GDP/capita (significantly lower for Serbia). The general consensus is that the bureaucracies are indolent and lazy, not willing to look for solutions when failure stares them in the face.

    I am mulling over the idea that maybe your taciturn Mexicans also have much lower suicide rates. Romania has one of the lowest in the region, according to the WHO. It’s no. 103 and the Hungarians, who really are stereotyped as being likely to off themselves out of ennui or existential dread, are at no. 25. Japan is 26. Poland is 15. Almost all of the countries in the region rank lower than Romania, except for Greece, Montenegro and Albania. Wicked people might suggest that suicidal depression is correlated with IQ :)) The differences are even more important when looking at rates for men and women, separately, rather than the average. Women still kill themselves at much lower rates than men, but a more suicidal country has a larger multiple of women committing suicide than men compared to a less suicidal one. Hungarian men kill themselves at 50% higher rates than Romanian men, while the women kill themselves at almost 175% higher rates. Feminism?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I think it'll be interesting to do a cross-study with suicide rates and death by drug overdose as well - I think in many ways, its a form of escape from a world too terrible to live in.
    , @Achmed E. Newman

    ..... Feminism?
     
    No thanks.
    , @snorlax

    Recently, a report said that both Bulgaria and Serbia have more kilometers of highway than Romania, despite having each a third of the territory, a third of the population and a lower GDP/capita (significantly lower for Serbia).
     
    Fewer roads = fewer gypsies in Bucharest?
  42. @Harry Baldwin
    Reminds me of this recent Vox Day post about the Japanese:
    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2017/06/no-wonder-they-kill-themselves.html

    I thought the comments to that missed understanding the traditional East Asian culture of seeing oneself as a part of a group, which is why suicide is far more acceptable/romantic. This is especially true of seeing it as an individualistic act, when it is at least largely associated with self-sacrifice. Its the ultimate self-sacrifice, of which smaller versions(such as living only for work, religion, etc.) are thus also seen as beautiful.

  43. @Romanian
    Lol, maybe it's a vicious circle. But fatalism is different from suicide, and emphasizes a sort of serenity and stoic demeanor that is conducive to putting up with life, rather than ending it. Of course, it has its downsides when in excess, like apathy and complacency, which are also present in the political culture. Recently, a report said that both Bulgaria and Serbia have more kilometers of highway than Romania, despite having each a third of the territory, a third of the population and a lower GDP/capita (significantly lower for Serbia). The general consensus is that the bureaucracies are indolent and lazy, not willing to look for solutions when failure stares them in the face.

    I am mulling over the idea that maybe your taciturn Mexicans also have much lower suicide rates. Romania has one of the lowest in the region, according to the WHO. It's no. 103 and the Hungarians, who really are stereotyped as being likely to off themselves out of ennui or existential dread, are at no. 25. Japan is 26. Poland is 15. Almost all of the countries in the region rank lower than Romania, except for Greece, Montenegro and Albania. Wicked people might suggest that suicidal depression is correlated with IQ :)) The differences are even more important when looking at rates for men and women, separately, rather than the average. Women still kill themselves at much lower rates than men, but a more suicidal country has a larger multiple of women committing suicide than men compared to a less suicidal one. Hungarian men kill themselves at 50% higher rates than Romanian men, while the women kill themselves at almost 175% higher rates. Feminism?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

    I think it’ll be interesting to do a cross-study with suicide rates and death by drug overdose as well – I think in many ways, its a form of escape from a world too terrible to live in.

  44. @The Anti-Gnostic

    The South has been allowed to mourn its loss and honor its history since the war, and the nation accepted it at least grudgingly and sometimes even openly (Dukes of Hazard, etc.). Only now, fully 152 years after the end of the war, has it suddenly become evil to do so.
     
    When the Dukes of Hazzard (and Smokey and the Bandit, and TransAms, Firebirds, etc.) were popular the US was over 80% white, and we were younger and meaner. Now, those ornery Southerners are quiet old men in a country that's 60+% white and dropping.

    Change the people, change the culture.

    “Dukes of Hazzard” and “Smokey and the Bandit” both debuted during the Carter years, when I think white Southerners briefly became respectable in liberal Hollywood because of their role in electing the first Democratic president since the Great Society foundered. Pre-Carter it was common for white Southerners to be savaged in films like “Easy Rider,” “Deliverance” and “To Kill a Mockingbird” (despite the U.S. being whiter than it was in the late ’70s) so population change doesn’t seem sufficient to explain the change in attitudes.

    • Replies: @anonymous

    so population change doesn’t seem sufficient to explain the change in attitudes.
     
    You'll need to look more at which group had gained cultural supremacy by that time.
  45. The Confederate/Civil War museum in my hometown has been turned into a museum about trains, though the local history is dominated by major Civil War battles and events, and the current curator compared Confederates to Nazis. In this environment, it’s fitting that the local college now has a permanent Anne Frank exhibition, and another small college about an hour away has a Holocaust museum. That makes sense.

    The change in the museum in my hometown came about when it became affiliated with the Smithsonian.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Kennesaw?
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican
    When Confederate memorial history erasing comes up in mainstream comment sections, a constant refrain from the left is “You lost. Get over it.” It’s interesting how that never applies to Holocaust museums and memorials.

    If being defeated in dramatic fashion means that a people’s legacy should be publicly ignored/dismissed, surely that applies to prewar European Jewry as is does to Southern Rebels. Especially in the United States, since the Holocaust didn’t even happen here.

    Winslet: “We get it, it was grim, move on.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEnjiGwVw6o
    , @Desiderius

    The change in the museum in my hometown came about when it became affiliated with the Smithsonian.
     
    The tweets I get from the Smithsonian are running a good 75% evangelical globohomo.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRguZr0xCOc

  46. I grew up on stories of the Confederacy and sympathetic literature. I think that the “misplaced” outrage of late is actually completely consistent with modern, liberal norms: its an effort to not only crush all history of resistance, but also defile the memory of anyrival system of civilization.

    Its not enough, for example, that the Confederacy lost. Its not enough to state that it was arguably a cruel and inefficient system that nonetheless had some noble generals and elegant belles.

    No, until the entire memory has been pervaded with the worst observations, until every single participant is seen as a subhuman demon so repugnant that the liberal must also search his or her family to rid even comparable wrongthink, until it is continually stamped and soiled and spat upon, it must continue to be attacked by the modern commissars.

    Because it is very hard to kill the soul of a people. But they’ve found, if you try hard enough, you can do even that, and then we can all be submitted to the only acceptable gods: Mammon and Moloch.

    • Replies: @peterike

    Because it is very hard to kill the soul of a people. But they’ve found, if you try hard enough, you can do even that, and then we can all be submitted to the only acceptable gods: Mammon and Moloch.

     

    Excellently put. My only quibble would be that, in fact, once they hit on the formula, it proved very, very easy to kill the soul of a people.
    , @OilcanFloyd
    "Its not enough, for example, that the Confederacy lost. Its not enough to state that it was arguably a cruel and inefficient system that nonetheless had some noble generals and elegant belles."

    I think your post is spot on about the need to destroy the history of the Confederacy, but I think a reading of a history that concentrates only on generals and belles is half-way there to destroying the history already. Granted, the history is somewhat personal to me, since many of my Confederate ancestors fought on battlefields in the area where I grew up, and maybe even on the exact piece of land where I was raised.

    The average Confederate soldier was not a slave owner, and competed against the plantation economy, which was the case for my own ancestors, at least judging by the census records of the ones that I have seen. They fought for years against a larger and better armed and supplied army, under brutal conditions, mostly on southern soil. That is heroic. As far as I know, there are no diaries or letters left by my Confederate ancestors, so I don't know what kind of people they were, what they thought or exactly why they fought, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and honor their lives and very real sacrifices. It's not uncommon to drive by makeshift Confederate graves or groups of them where I grew up, so it's hard not to make the history personal, or to resent the hell out of Anne Frank, Train or Holocaust museums forcibly taking the place of actual local history.

    It's also worth mentioning that it wasn't uncommon for plantations to be owned by Northerners or transplants, who viewed the plantation as nothing more than a business venture, as did northern slave traders and slave owners. Based on the accounts that I have read, the attitude of the Planters towards the small farmers was akin to the attitude of the English landed aristocracy to their yeoman and serf farmers, which wasn't exactly paternalistic.

    Several weeks ago, I went on a trip to Ft. Sumter with my son's scout group, and the history lesson on the ferry was complete PC garbage, full of talk about racism and inequality. I'm very familiar with the opposite history where the defeat of Confederacy was the defeat of God's will on earth, so I know it goes both ways. The truth is that the War was a conflict between competing economies and cultures, both with flaws and many warts? I'd also be willing to bet that the average Northern industrial worker benefited more from the slave trade, due to the fact that the trade often supplied the raw materials for his industry, than did the average small farmer of the South.

    http://slavenorth.com
    , @OilcanFloyd

    Its not enough, for example, that the Confederacy lost. Its not enough to state that it was arguably a cruel and inefficient system that nonetheless had some noble generals and elegant belles
     
    .

    I think your post is spot on about the need to destroy the history of the Confederacy, but I think a reading of history that concentrates only on generals and belles is half-way there to destroying the history already. Granted, the history is somewhat personal to me, since many of my Confederate ancestors fought on battlefields in the area where I grew up, and maybe even on the exact piece of land where I was raised.

    The average Confederate soldier was not a slave owner, and competed against the plantation economy, which was the case for my own ancestors, at least judging by the census records of the ones that I have seen. They fought for years against a larger and better armed and supplied army, under brutal conditions, mostly on southern soil. That is heroic. As far as I know, there are no diaries or letters left by my Confederate ancestors, so I don’t know what kind of people they were, what they thought or exactly why they fought, but I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and honor their lives and very real sacrifices.

    It’s not uncommon to drive by makeshift Confederate graves or groups of graves, where I grew up, so it’s hard not to make the history personal, or to resent the hell out of Anne Frank, Train or Holocaust museums forcibly taking the place of actual local history.

    It’s also worth mentioning that it wasn’t uncommon for plantations to be owned by Northerners or transplants, who viewed the plantation as nothing more than a business venture, as did northern slave traders and slave owners. Based on the accounts that I have read, the attitude of the Planters towards the small farmers was akin to the attitude of the English landed aristocracy to their yeoman and serf farmers, which wasn’t exactly paternalistic.

    Several weeks ago, I went on a trip to Ft. Sumter with my son’s scout group, and the history lesson on the ferry was complete PC garbage, full of talk about racism and inequality. I’m very familiar with the opposite history where the defeat of Confederacy was the defeat of God’s will on earth, so I know it goes both ways. The truth is that the War was a conflict between competing economies and cultures, both with flaws and many warts? I’d also be willing to bet that the average northern industrial worker benefited more from the slave trade, due to the fact that the trade often supplied the raw materials for his industry, than did the average small farmer of the South.

    http://slavenorth.com
  47. @Daniel Chieh
    I grew up on stories of the Confederacy and sympathetic literature. I think that the "misplaced" outrage of late is actually completely consistent with modern, liberal norms: its an effort to not only crush all history of resistance, but also defile the memory of anyrival system of civilization.

    Its not enough, for example, that the Confederacy lost. Its not enough to state that it was arguably a cruel and inefficient system that nonetheless had some noble generals and elegant belles.

    No, until the entire memory has been pervaded with the worst observations, until every single participant is seen as a subhuman demon so repugnant that the liberal must also search his or her family to rid even comparable wrongthink, until it is continually stamped and soiled and spat upon, it must continue to be attacked by the modern commissars.

    Because it is very hard to kill the soul of a people. But they've found, if you try hard enough, you can do even that, and then we can all be submitted to the only acceptable gods: Mammon and Moloch.

    Because it is very hard to kill the soul of a people. But they’ve found, if you try hard enough, you can do even that, and then we can all be submitted to the only acceptable gods: Mammon and Moloch.

    Excellently put. My only quibble would be that, in fact, once they hit on the formula, it proved very, very easy to kill the soul of a people.

  48. @PiltdownMan
    It crosses my mind, in an imprecise way, that the current liberal hatred of Russia, a country and culture that dwells on its historical hardships, is not dissimilar to the liberal hatred of the mourning that the South expresses for a lost cultural past. They hate poetic loserdom or, as Steve more perceptively and succinctly puts it, ambivalence and ambiguity.

    I reckon they most hate indomitable perseverence. They demand acquiesence and obeisance; they demand, and want more than anything else, more than even victory and dominion itself, for the vanquished to kiss their rings.

    The shared characteristics of the Russianan and us unrehabilitated Southerners is defiance and perseverenve even folling defeat. In our own case, even killing our sons and taking our lands was not enough because we keep being Southerners, and that won’t do. The destruction of the monuments and the prohibition of the flags, the very obliteration of history, is meant to do what no army can do to a resolute people: destroy its spirit, culture, and identity.

    The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.

  49. @Numinous

    It crosses my mind, in an imprecise way, that the current liberal hatred of Russia, a country and culture that dwells on its historical hardships, is not dissimilar to the liberal hatred of the mourning that the South expresses for a lost cultural past.
     
    Per my understanding, the South was nor mourning a lost cultural past, but rather its failed attempt at preserving and expanding a slave society. After all, if they hadn't tried to secede, they could have remained in the Union, kept their old culture, and periodically blackmailed the North into accepting their demands (pretty much what happened throughout the first half of the 19th century.) But that wasn't enough for them. They fought, they lost, and they should have moved on. Why the rest of the country tolerated their attempts at celebrating rebellion and treason beats me. Now, if the descendants of slaves weren't still residing in the country, perhaps this "mourning" would not be a big deal. But they are!

    I don't see a valid comparison with Russia here. I'm a liberal, and I have no idea why American liberals have decided to wage a jihad against that country in cahoots with neocons. There's no Russian equivalent of mourning for a slave society. It's not even that Putin is celebrating Communism; he's shown no signs of wanting to bring back the Politburo. If Russia seems revanchist in any way when it comes to its neighbors, it's purely a reaction to NATO's overreach. But nothing Russia is doing or has done comes close to the immorality of the Confederacy's ultimate goal: to keep people permanently in bondage.

    Your understanding of history strains agianst reality with a vigor matched only by those who earnestly believe Mohammedism was the indigneous religion of the Levant since time immemorial, peacefully cultivated by its inhabitants, until the arrival of nasty Christian invaders bent on world-domination because their religion was built upon the teachings of an ambitous warlord preaching violent conquest.

    Of course, you wrote it with far greater economy: “I’m a liberal.”

    • Agree: Kylie
  50. @Numinous

    It crosses my mind, in an imprecise way, that the current liberal hatred of Russia, a country and culture that dwells on its historical hardships, is not dissimilar to the liberal hatred of the mourning that the South expresses for a lost cultural past.
     
    Per my understanding, the South was nor mourning a lost cultural past, but rather its failed attempt at preserving and expanding a slave society. After all, if they hadn't tried to secede, they could have remained in the Union, kept their old culture, and periodically blackmailed the North into accepting their demands (pretty much what happened throughout the first half of the 19th century.) But that wasn't enough for them. They fought, they lost, and they should have moved on. Why the rest of the country tolerated their attempts at celebrating rebellion and treason beats me. Now, if the descendants of slaves weren't still residing in the country, perhaps this "mourning" would not be a big deal. But they are!

    I don't see a valid comparison with Russia here. I'm a liberal, and I have no idea why American liberals have decided to wage a jihad against that country in cahoots with neocons. There's no Russian equivalent of mourning for a slave society. It's not even that Putin is celebrating Communism; he's shown no signs of wanting to bring back the Politburo. If Russia seems revanchist in any way when it comes to its neighbors, it's purely a reaction to NATO's overreach. But nothing Russia is doing or has done comes close to the immorality of the Confederacy's ultimate goal: to keep people permanently in bondage.

    Yeah, you have no idea what the hell you’re talking about. This is the kind of historical revisionism that we can look forward to if liberals take over. Just awesome.

    So yeah, if you actually read any Lost Cause material, you’ll know that it was heavily involved not with the “peculiar institution” but the idea of state’s rights. Sure, in reality, its very likely that had as much if not more to do with slavery than anything else.

    But by the time it had gotten romanticized, it already has “sanitized” itself and did indeed try to focus on cultural relics involved with agrarian existence, as well as the attitudes needed for it – honor and courage in defending land, the strong sense of independence, the notions of noblesse oblige and the shared values that were definitely not urban.

    To destroy all of that would be tragic. Really, to trade for a world of say General Robert E Lee’s conflicted morality, skilled generalship under desperate conditions, and complex religious yet belligerent personality so that we have a world better for maximum numbers of gender-confused brainless boobs is sickening.

    We abuse what is noble and beautiful; we celebrate the freak and the degenerate.

    Progress.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes, Harry Baldwin
    • Replies: @Desiderius

    We abuse what is noble and beautiful; we celebrate the freak and the degenerate.
     
    We, kimosabe?

    The we you long for no longer exists.
    , @Numinous
    The only historical revisionism lies in portraying The Lost Cause as some sort of pure (even romantic) quest for the principle of states rights. The people who started and led the Confederacy were under no illusion about what their cause was; they were completely open about it.

    I don't blame Southerners for this at all. Every group of people who are defeated and traumatized need myths to hold on to (there are a number of defeated and browbeaten countries around the world where such "Lost Cause/Culture" nostalgia lingers.) What I am puzzled by is why non-Southerners seem so moved by this, especially when the Cause was about slavery, from start to finish (plus rebellion, though that could easily have been forgiven if the Cause hadn't been so abhorrent.)
    , @Numinous

    Really, to trade for a world of say General Robert E Lee’s conflicted morality, skilled generalship under desperate conditions, and complex religious yet belligerent personality so that we have a world better for maximum numbers of gender-confused brainless boobs is sickening.
     
    Yeah, that's all the world has: Robert E. Lee and "gender-confused boobs". Nothing else.

    Talking about Robert Lee, here's a hard (negative) look at the man: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/ . Can you find anything here that isn't factual?
  51. @OilcanFloyd
    The Confederate/Civil War museum in my hometown has been turned into a museum about trains, though the local history is dominated by major Civil War battles and events, and the current curator compared Confederates to Nazis. In this environment, it's fitting that the local college now has a permanent Anne Frank exhibition, and another small college about an hour away has a Holocaust museum. That makes sense.

    The change in the museum in my hometown came about when it became affiliated with the Smithsonian.

    Kennesaw?

    • Replies: @OilcanFloyd
    How did you guess?
  52. @PiltdownMan
    It crosses my mind, in an imprecise way, that the current liberal hatred of Russia, a country and culture that dwells on its historical hardships, is not dissimilar to the liberal hatred of the mourning that the South expresses for a lost cultural past. They hate poetic loserdom or, as Steve more perceptively and succinctly puts it, ambivalence and ambiguity.

    They hate poetic loserdom or, as Steve more perceptively and succinctly puts it, ambivalence and ambiguity.

    Next year in Jerusalem.

  53. @anonymous
    If you can still find it Tom Petty did a music video of his song Rebels in which a large rebel flag was featured as the backdrop. He also grabbed a confederate flag and wrapped it around himself during the performance. That music video has pretty much been scrubbed from Youtube, though I have not searched for it exhaustively. I am sure it is out there somewhere.

    I liked that video a lot and I and Steve Sailer both commented on your observation about 5 months back, but I can’t remember under what post (you know the way things go on here!). That video, last I looked, was a “permission required” video, as if it were a video of oriental bikini girls – a friend of mine has searched for those. So youtube wants info. on you to view this forbidden Rebel flag video. Now, I believe (again, from a friend) one can give bogus information though without any email that you must open.

    Do you think they want your info in order to round up the latent Rebels? Google thinks they are just helping to get things under control, but we will remember.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    I found the video at some site called Daily Motion.
  54. @Joe Magarac
    The War Between the States -- The big counter-example to the trope that "winners write history".

    Which explains why somebody or other is still fighting to erase that history over a century and a half later.

    Another example is the history about the Vikings – written mainly by the monks they pillaged.

  55. I’m reading this posting – not because it’s so interesting to me – but because I’m trying to pay attention to the Comey hearings – and failing.

    I remember a very short and silly Science Fiction story I read decades ago in which the aliens mounted a gigantic TV spectacular like the Ed Sullivan show. It put everyone on earth to sleep and they occupied the slumbering Earth.

    After all this build up the actual hearing is a crashing bore.

  56. @Thirdtwin
    (3) Too many Yankees came south after the invention of air conditioning.

    Thirdtwin, Our neighbors moved to NC and joined a large group of ex-pat WNYers who bemoaned the loss of shopping at Wegmans. They moved to Cary, NC, which they said meant Containment Area for Relocated Yankees.

  57. @Richard
    "Dukes of Hazzard" and "Smokey and the Bandit" both debuted during the Carter years, when I think white Southerners briefly became respectable in liberal Hollywood because of their role in electing the first Democratic president since the Great Society foundered. Pre-Carter it was common for white Southerners to be savaged in films like "Easy Rider," "Deliverance" and "To Kill a Mockingbird" (despite the U.S. being whiter than it was in the late '70s) so population change doesn't seem sufficient to explain the change in attitudes.

    so population change doesn’t seem sufficient to explain the change in attitudes.

    You’ll need to look more at which group had gained cultural supremacy by that time.

  58. @Harry Baldwin
    True, and interesting because you'd think the sequence would be the opposite--"time heals all wounds," but not when there's axes to be ground. In the early 1960s, at the centennial of the Civil War, there was a craze for it among my childhood peers, who collected Civil War cards, which were sold like baseball cards, in packets with gum. Confederates were more glamorous than Yankees. You could buy imitation rebel caps and some kids wore them to school.

    Something of the same happened with World War II (European Theater), where in the 1960s it was all right to joke about stupid Nazis in "Hogan's Heroes" and The Producers. No humor to be mined in that vein anymore.

    Harry, I have a collection of at least 50 books on the Civil War. I still can’t figure out what Lee was thinking at Gettysburg, an almost all or nothing battle, highlighted by Pickett’s charge. A visit to the battlefield is required to get a sense of the three days of carnage. Civil War memorabilia, especially Confederate items, still brings very good money at the local Flea Market and Auctions. German WWII memorabilia brings good prices also. No humor, but people still collect these items.

  59. @Achmed E. Newman
    I liked that video a lot and I and Steve Sailer both commented on your observation about 5 months back, but I can't remember under what post (you know the way things go on here!). That video, last I looked, was a "permission required" video, as if it were a video of oriental bikini girls - a friend of mine has searched for those. So youtube wants info. on you to view this forbidden Rebel flag video. Now, I believe (again, from a friend) one can give bogus information though without any email that you must open.

    Do you think they want your info in order to round up the latent Rebels? Google thinks they are just helping to get things under control, but we will remember.

    I found the video at some site called Daily Motion.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Thanks. I'll view it later on today. Gonna be down to the Gator Country soon, get a little elbow room ...

    ... and a bit of that chomp, chomp. How many guitars do they have playing during that 3 minute jam?!

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PTR13MV4fqc

    Dammit Steve, embedding's not working! Get Unz on the horn, prontomundo!

  60. @Harry Baldwin
    True, and interesting because you'd think the sequence would be the opposite--"time heals all wounds," but not when there's axes to be ground. In the early 1960s, at the centennial of the Civil War, there was a craze for it among my childhood peers, who collected Civil War cards, which were sold like baseball cards, in packets with gum. Confederates were more glamorous than Yankees. You could buy imitation rebel caps and some kids wore them to school.

    Something of the same happened with World War II (European Theater), where in the 1960s it was all right to joke about stupid Nazis in "Hogan's Heroes" and The Producers. No humor to be mined in that vein anymore.

    True, and interesting because you’d think the sequence would be the opposite–”time heals all wounds,” but not when there’s axes to be ground.

    And why are the axes to be ground?

    The 1960s civil rights movement, as I remember it, was not concerned about Confederate monuments, the battle flag, etc. Its emphasis was on desegregating schools, public accommodations, and housing, and enabling blacks to vote. These aims were accomplished by judicial decrees and legislation. However, fifty years later, the altruistic goal of “integration,” so often championed by ‘sixties liberals, has not been achieved. While the removal of the civil disabilities blacks once endured has been very good for the “talented tenth” – there is a flourishing black elite – the not-so-talented nine-tenths of the black population has not prospered. Tom Sowell has pointed out that rates of illegitimate birth, welfare dependency, and incarceration are all higher among blacks today than they were in 1940, when Jim Crow prevailed in one-third of the country, and there were no anti-discrimination laws in the rest of it.

    Something must be to blame for this, mustn’t it? And the self-appointed black leaders have decided that it’s those Confederate statues. So down they must come, and the names of Confederate historical figures (and ante-bellum slaveholders such as Jefferson, Madison, or Jackson) must be excised from public buildings, streets, and parks. It is an act of damnatio memoriæ akin to the Jacobins’ exhumation and destruction of the remains of the kings of France, and their chiseling of coats-of-arms from the façades of buildings, because these were reminders of the pre-revolutionary era.

    And when all this is done, will it have got any black person better employment, education, or other improvement in his material condition?

    • Agree: Federalist
    • Replies: @Federalist
    "And when all this is done, will it have got any black person better employment, education, or other improvement in his material condition?"

    http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2017/06/new_orleans_shooting_2017_high.html

    http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2017/06/orleans_parish_is_nations_most.html
  61. @Harry Baldwin
    True, and interesting because you'd think the sequence would be the opposite--"time heals all wounds," but not when there's axes to be ground. In the early 1960s, at the centennial of the Civil War, there was a craze for it among my childhood peers, who collected Civil War cards, which were sold like baseball cards, in packets with gum. Confederates were more glamorous than Yankees. You could buy imitation rebel caps and some kids wore them to school.

    Something of the same happened with World War II (European Theater), where in the 1960s it was all right to joke about stupid Nazis in "Hogan's Heroes" and The Producers. No humor to be mined in that vein anymore.

    Peanuts for November 9 and 23, 1961. Charlie Brown, Linus and even Snoopy in rebel caps.

    http://peanuts.wikia.com/wiki/November_1961_comic_strips

    I can’t even imagine the outrage if those strips were published today.

  62. @Jake
    I don't think the core behind the Lincoln presidency and the Union war effort and Reconstruction ever could acknowledge ambiguity, much less the fact that perhaps they acted in ways less than unquestionable. The 'truce' came about because they realized that all the recent Catholic immigrants meant that they required allies against that democratic threat. So they magnanimously pretended to forget and have all good will so that the Protestant South would not feel compelled to rush into alliance with the Catholic immigrants.

    Once the Yankee WASP Elites cemented their alliance with Jews and managed to bribe a growing number of rich Catholics to beg to be admitted to their club, they no longer needed the conservative South.

    And then it was time to re-start the war against white Southerners and all things culturally Southern.

    But the coalition between white Southerners and mostly Catholic immigrants *was* the basis for the Democratic Party until roughly midcentury (the original “coalition of the fringes,” if you will). The GOP was always the party of the American “core,” (though until the 30’s they were also the party of Blacks), it’s just that what that means has changed dramatically as a result of shifting demographics and the cultural upheaval of the 60’s.

    • Replies: @Bill

    The GOP was always the party of the American “core,”
     
    Huh? How do Southern Whites get written out of the American core?
    , @Jake
    So the original coalition of the fringes featured the people of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, James Madison, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson.

    Just rattling that around for a while in your head and then saying it aloud should help. Without the fringe of the white South, there never could have been any America.

    The Republican Party was a revolutionary party. That's the reason all those Liberal Northern Protestants supported it, as did all the Liberal Northern journalists and college professors. .That's the reason the German 1848ers (they of the pro-communist revolution that failed) all became good Republicans, good Lincoln men, pro-Reconstruction folks.

    There never was a one core of America. What amounted to the core of New England, NY, and Philadelphia was genteelly Liberal. And that core was the intellectual and spiritual base of the original Republican Party. Add to that the German 48ers, and the Know-Nothings who delighted in hating virtually all whites who were neither British nor German Protestants, and you have the Party of Lincoln and Grant.
    , @fnn
    Probably why Huey Long was assassinated. Long had just formed an alliance with Fr. Coughlin.
    Long had a huge following with poor Southern whites and Fr. Coughlin had an even more impressive following among Northern urban Catholics. And it's not an exaggeration to say that both men were exceptionally charismatic. A real threat to FDR and the existing D party bosses.
  63. @slumber_j
    That's really strange material for a folk song.

    Forget it, Jake. It’s Romania!

  64. @OilcanFloyd
    The Confederate/Civil War museum in my hometown has been turned into a museum about trains, though the local history is dominated by major Civil War battles and events, and the current curator compared Confederates to Nazis. In this environment, it's fitting that the local college now has a permanent Anne Frank exhibition, and another small college about an hour away has a Holocaust museum. That makes sense.

    The change in the museum in my hometown came about when it became affiliated with the Smithsonian.

    When Confederate memorial history erasing comes up in mainstream comment sections, a constant refrain from the left is “You lost. Get over it.” It’s interesting how that never applies to Holocaust museums and memorials.

    If being defeated in dramatic fashion means that a people’s legacy should be publicly ignored/dismissed, surely that applies to prewar European Jewry as is does to Southern Rebels. Especially in the United States, since the Holocaust didn’t even happen here.

    Winslet: “We get it, it was grim, move on.”

    • Replies: @Kylie
    "When Confederate memorial history erasing comes up in mainstream comment sections, a constant refrain from the left is 'You lost. Get over it.' It’s interesting how that never applies to Holocaust museums and memorials."

    Or the election of Trump.
    , @OilcanFloyd

    If being defeated in dramatic fashion means that a people’s legacy should be publicly ignored/dismissed, surely that applies to prewar European Jewry as is does to Southern Rebels. Especially in the United States, since the Holocaust didn’t even happen here.
     
    We're supposed to both revile and forget our own history at the same time, while hating ourselves and replacing our past and bodies with the pasts and bodies others.

    What does this have to with Georgia or the U.S.? If anything could be worse than the trashing of Mary Phagan and the sainting of Leo Frank, this is it.
    https://holocaust.georgia.gov
    , @Desiderius
    The Jews took some casualties, but they weren't on the losing side.
  65. Helm was the American Southerner in the Band. The remaining
    American from Ronnie Hawkin’s drive north in the late 1950’s.

  66. @Daniel Chieh
    I grew up on stories of the Confederacy and sympathetic literature. I think that the "misplaced" outrage of late is actually completely consistent with modern, liberal norms: its an effort to not only crush all history of resistance, but also defile the memory of anyrival system of civilization.

    Its not enough, for example, that the Confederacy lost. Its not enough to state that it was arguably a cruel and inefficient system that nonetheless had some noble generals and elegant belles.

    No, until the entire memory has been pervaded with the worst observations, until every single participant is seen as a subhuman demon so repugnant that the liberal must also search his or her family to rid even comparable wrongthink, until it is continually stamped and soiled and spat upon, it must continue to be attacked by the modern commissars.

    Because it is very hard to kill the soul of a people. But they've found, if you try hard enough, you can do even that, and then we can all be submitted to the only acceptable gods: Mammon and Moloch.

    “Its not enough, for example, that the Confederacy lost. Its not enough to state that it was arguably a cruel and inefficient system that nonetheless had some noble generals and elegant belles.”

    I think your post is spot on about the need to destroy the history of the Confederacy, but I think a reading of a history that concentrates only on generals and belles is half-way there to destroying the history already. Granted, the history is somewhat personal to me, since many of my Confederate ancestors fought on battlefields in the area where I grew up, and maybe even on the exact piece of land where I was raised.

    The average Confederate soldier was not a slave owner, and competed against the plantation economy, which was the case for my own ancestors, at least judging by the census records of the ones that I have seen. They fought for years against a larger and better armed and supplied army, under brutal conditions, mostly on southern soil. That is heroic. As far as I know, there are no diaries or letters left by my Confederate ancestors, so I don’t know what kind of people they were, what they thought or exactly why they fought, but I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and honor their lives and very real sacrifices. It’s not uncommon to drive by makeshift Confederate graves or groups of them where I grew up, so it’s hard not to make the history personal, or to resent the hell out of Anne Frank, Train or Holocaust museums forcibly taking the place of actual local history.

    It’s also worth mentioning that it wasn’t uncommon for plantations to be owned by Northerners or transplants, who viewed the plantation as nothing more than a business venture, as did northern slave traders and slave owners. Based on the accounts that I have read, the attitude of the Planters towards the small farmers was akin to the attitude of the English landed aristocracy to their yeoman and serf farmers, which wasn’t exactly paternalistic.

    Several weeks ago, I went on a trip to Ft. Sumter with my son’s scout group, and the history lesson on the ferry was complete PC garbage, full of talk about racism and inequality. I’m very familiar with the opposite history where the defeat of Confederacy was the defeat of God’s will on earth, so I know it goes both ways. The truth is that the War was a conflict between competing economies and cultures, both with flaws and many warts? I’d also be willing to bet that the average Northern industrial worker benefited more from the slave trade, due to the fact that the trade often supplied the raw materials for his industry, than did the average small farmer of the South.

    http://slavenorth.com

  67. @Autochthon
    Kennesaw?

    How did you guess?

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Old haunts, friend; and many years watching a delayed-blast wave of sewege approaching unfathomable leagues from the shore with a perspicacity to sunder time and distance.
  68. @Romanian
    Lol, maybe it's a vicious circle. But fatalism is different from suicide, and emphasizes a sort of serenity and stoic demeanor that is conducive to putting up with life, rather than ending it. Of course, it has its downsides when in excess, like apathy and complacency, which are also present in the political culture. Recently, a report said that both Bulgaria and Serbia have more kilometers of highway than Romania, despite having each a third of the territory, a third of the population and a lower GDP/capita (significantly lower for Serbia). The general consensus is that the bureaucracies are indolent and lazy, not willing to look for solutions when failure stares them in the face.

    I am mulling over the idea that maybe your taciturn Mexicans also have much lower suicide rates. Romania has one of the lowest in the region, according to the WHO. It's no. 103 and the Hungarians, who really are stereotyped as being likely to off themselves out of ennui or existential dread, are at no. 25. Japan is 26. Poland is 15. Almost all of the countries in the region rank lower than Romania, except for Greece, Montenegro and Albania. Wicked people might suggest that suicidal depression is correlated with IQ :)) The differences are even more important when looking at rates for men and women, separately, rather than the average. Women still kill themselves at much lower rates than men, but a more suicidal country has a larger multiple of women committing suicide than men compared to a less suicidal one. Hungarian men kill themselves at 50% higher rates than Romanian men, while the women kill themselves at almost 175% higher rates. Feminism?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

    ….. Feminism?

    No thanks.

    • Replies: @Romanian
    I wasn't selling. I have a low opinion of people who deal drugs to kids!
  69. @dearieme
    There's a statue of Ollie Cromwell in Westminster, which is remarkable really given the way he treated Parliament and King.

    Would you say Cromwell won posthumously, a number of centuries after his defeat (actually after his son’s)?

    • Replies: @snorlax
    Only a few decades after his defeat; 1688 or 1714 depending on how you're counting. But nowadays he's a Jefferson or Woodrow Wilson type figure; part of the Revolution, but it has eaten its own many times over since his death. Transport him to modern times and he'd make Richard Spencer look like Rachel Maddow.
    , @dfordoom

    Would you say Cromwell won posthumously, a number of centuries after his defeat (actually after his son’s)?
     
    In many ways Cromwell and his ilk won. Not in a religious sense but in an economic sense. The English monarchy was destroyed, never to be restored. The so-called Restoration was a sham. The rich were left in complete control and they've been in control ever since. English history in the 17th century represents a successful revolt of the rich against the poor and middling classes.
  70. @JohnnyD
    I don't think anyone, including blacks, really cared about the Confederate flag until the 1990s. Even our pal, Morris Dees, was ok with it.

    so true…I hung a confederate flag in my dorm room in 1987 at Rutgers University. not sure exactly why i did it, bought it on campus where they were selling posters and flags and stuff college kids hung on their walls. Just fought it was a cool looking flag and maybe I saw myself as a Rebel. Was a fan of the UNLV Running Rebels basketball team and grew up watching the Dukes of Hazard.

  71. @anonymous
    I found the video at some site called Daily Motion.

    Thanks. I’ll view it later on today. Gonna be down to the Gator Country soon, get a little elbow room …

    … and a bit of that chomp, chomp. How many guitars do they have playing during that 3 minute jam?!

    Dammit Steve, embedding’s not working! Get Unz on the horn, prontomundo!

  72. Speaking of the losers of history: Slaves lost when they got enslaved. Native Indians lost. Jews lost in the holocaust. All of these groups are painted more than favorably despite being complete losers.

    Is Islam a loser or is it the west’s responsibility to transform them to a winner?

  73. @JohnnyD
    I don't think anyone, including blacks, really cared about the Confederate flag until the 1990s. Even our pal, Morris Dees, was ok with it.

    In June 2015 my wife and I took a tour of Civil War battlefields. All the Visitors Centers sold the Confederate flag in different sizes.

    Outside the Gettysburg center we saw a party of highschoolers who’d just bought a full-size one & were horsing around merrily, wrapping each other in it.

    The anti-flag campaign started just a few weeks later.

  74. @eah
    Yo!

    https://twitter.com/occdissent/status/872581121690787840

    A monument to chocolate.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    It needs some text. How about, "I have a dream"?
  75. @PiltdownMan
    It crosses my mind, in an imprecise way, that the current liberal hatred of Russia, a country and culture that dwells on its historical hardships, is not dissimilar to the liberal hatred of the mourning that the South expresses for a lost cultural past. They hate poetic loserdom or, as Steve more perceptively and succinctly puts it, ambivalence and ambiguity.

    Anti-Russian propaganda from the Democrats is nothing more than pseudo-nationalist claptrap. The Democrats have gone full-bore globalizer, and to cover that they are attempting to sound somewhat nationalist by their attacks on Putin and Russia. It is a total fraud.

    The anti-White Democrats only represent some portion of upper middle class Whites, White government workers, White wackos and non-Whites. By default, the Republican Party gets the rest of the Whites.

    The coming Civil War II will be between the Whites who are patriotic and the Whites who push globalization. White government workers in the military and the police will be the key to winning Civil War II for the patriotic side. Attacks on Southern war heroes will give great motivation to White government workers to fight for their future by defending the honor of their past.

  76. @JohnnyD
    I don't think anyone, including blacks, really cared about the Confederate flag until the 1990s. Even our pal, Morris Dees, was ok with it.

    They still don’t care about the Confederate flag. But they finally recognized its usefulness in claiming it represents racists/haters/bigots (low-class whites) and as a trigger for their smug (“righteous”) moral outrage.

  77. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    When Confederate memorial history erasing comes up in mainstream comment sections, a constant refrain from the left is “You lost. Get over it.” It’s interesting how that never applies to Holocaust museums and memorials.

    If being defeated in dramatic fashion means that a people’s legacy should be publicly ignored/dismissed, surely that applies to prewar European Jewry as is does to Southern Rebels. Especially in the United States, since the Holocaust didn’t even happen here.

    Winslet: “We get it, it was grim, move on.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEnjiGwVw6o

    “When Confederate memorial history erasing comes up in mainstream comment sections, a constant refrain from the left is ‘You lost. Get over it.’ It’s interesting how that never applies to Holocaust museums and memorials.”

    Or the election of Trump.

  78. What about the myth that Americans root for the underdog?

    All these things are truisms subject to the Barnum effect: You can see at least one of them in each instance. We love a winner, but we root for the underdog. (So, yes, we love him when he wins. This goes back to the American victory over the British Empire.)

    We celebrated Confederate bravery, because it was real and admirable, but also to make the losers feel better. They were back on our team, ready to send their future sons off to foreign wars in disproportionate numbers, because they are made of honorable stuff.

    Today, America is flipped on its head, thus:

    Affirmative action puts losers ahead of winners.

    Mass immigration puts losers on the winning teams, by importing them into the winners’ homelands.

    Goodthinking monitors at Harvard punish our children for looking down on anyone whose race lost in the competition between the peoples of the world. Perhaps they are just encouraging good sportsmanship.

    The tiniest, winningest little team on the planet uses mythical victimhood as its most famous play in this game. Thus, they too are losers who are raised to the level of winners, by pretending to be losers.

    At the deepest and highest levels, we are doing our best to kill the winning breed of man.

    Back to Neitzsche, Americans and Europeans are no longer on the path to Ubermenschehood. They are relapsing back into slave mentality. They are being absorbed by the mediocrity that surrounds them.

  79. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    When Confederate memorial history erasing comes up in mainstream comment sections, a constant refrain from the left is “You lost. Get over it.” It’s interesting how that never applies to Holocaust museums and memorials.

    If being defeated in dramatic fashion means that a people’s legacy should be publicly ignored/dismissed, surely that applies to prewar European Jewry as is does to Southern Rebels. Especially in the United States, since the Holocaust didn’t even happen here.

    Winslet: “We get it, it was grim, move on.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEnjiGwVw6o

    If being defeated in dramatic fashion means that a people’s legacy should be publicly ignored/dismissed, surely that applies to prewar European Jewry as is does to Southern Rebels. Especially in the United States, since the Holocaust didn’t even happen here.

    We’re supposed to both revile and forget our own history at the same time, while hating ourselves and replacing our past and bodies with the pasts and bodies others.

    What does this have to with Georgia or the U.S.? If anything could be worse than the trashing of Mary Phagan and the sainting of Leo Frank, this is it.
    https://holocaust.georgia.gov

  80. These leftists are toxic creeps . The Battle Flag is an expression of Southern Heritage. THEY’RE making it into a racial issue . Same goes for Confederate General statues . Doesn’t matter if the Civil War was about slavery or states rights – these symbols are about the effort , fallen soldiers , and regional pride .

  81. @Harry Baldwin
    True, and interesting because you'd think the sequence would be the opposite--"time heals all wounds," but not when there's axes to be ground. In the early 1960s, at the centennial of the Civil War, there was a craze for it among my childhood peers, who collected Civil War cards, which were sold like baseball cards, in packets with gum. Confederates were more glamorous than Yankees. You could buy imitation rebel caps and some kids wore them to school.

    Something of the same happened with World War II (European Theater), where in the 1960s it was all right to joke about stupid Nazis in "Hogan's Heroes" and The Producers. No humor to be mined in that vein anymore.

    “Something of the same happened with World War II (European Theater), where in the 1960s it was all right to joke about stupid Nazis in ‘Hogan’s Heroes’ and The Producers. No humor to be mined in that vein anymore.”

    Overheard at a Redbox kiosk last week: “You want to rent ‘Soldiers of the Damned’? It’s a WWII movie.” “Nah, it’ll just make the Nazis out to be the bad guys.”

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Overheard at a Redbox kiosk last week: “You want to rent ‘Soldiers of the Damned’? It’s a WWII movie.” “Nah, it’ll just make the Nazis out to be the bad guys.”
     
    Haha!
  82. WGG says:

    The idea of the previous white America, was that if you fought honorably, you would be honored in death- no matter which side won. It was a gentleman’s agreement to not use brutal tactics or terrorist tactics, with the payoff being reverence for both sides. Now that they are disrespecting confederate soldiers and flags, that agreement is out the window. So when the current cold civil war finally goes hot, all tactics will be on the table and winning will be the only thing that matters. It will be ugly.

  83. Maybe Southerner’s should start flying the actual Confederate Flag that flew over Richmond and Montgomery – just to throw them off . Intentional confusion is part of war and this is definitely that.

  84. @Achmed E. Newman
    100-odd years later:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rlNO8zGgCGw

    see also:

  85. The contemporary American psyche doesn’t allow much space for original sin and the tragic fall. Orginal sin is an obscure, outmoded superstition emerging from low self-esteem, and tragedy is kind of intertwined with misfortune, but we’re not sure how.

    Actually, tragedy is something that mostly happens to people less clever, deserving, and accomplished than ourselves, and if we play our cards right, we’ll only ever have to confront in a classroom lecture.

  86. “But Americans are not terribly appreciative anymore of ambiguity or ambivalence.’

    We’d better not be. And we know it. History’s human side, with its ambiguity and ambivalence, is racist. History is now presented as straight-up good guy / bad guy. This helps keep things clear for low IQ, poor impulse control, easily provoked citizens of the future.

    I don’t think at this point we need specify how the good guys and the bad guys will be cast.

    • Replies: @CCZ
    Lots of ambiguity and ambivalence in the words of the elderly ex-slaves interviewed in the 1930s by the WPA oral history project and available:

    http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/search/?query=slave+narratives+a+folk+history

    The words from, rather than the words about, these survivors of slavery and emancipation do reveal "history's human side" and tell a story with many shades of gray.
  87. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    When Confederate memorial history erasing comes up in mainstream comment sections, a constant refrain from the left is “You lost. Get over it.” It’s interesting how that never applies to Holocaust museums and memorials.

    If being defeated in dramatic fashion means that a people’s legacy should be publicly ignored/dismissed, surely that applies to prewar European Jewry as is does to Southern Rebels. Especially in the United States, since the Holocaust didn’t even happen here.

    Winslet: “We get it, it was grim, move on.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEnjiGwVw6o

    The Jews took some casualties, but they weren’t on the losing side.

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Certainly European Jews under Axis control lost big. Holocaust museums and memorials commemorate them first and foremost. I would think it’s a depressing legacy to promote, although I do see its usefulness as a guilt-trip slave morality weapon to be used against nationalist goys.

    If you're hinting at a broader concern as to who’s ‘winning’ in an ongoing who/whom struggle, don’t take that black pill just yet.

    “The future shall be full of interest.”

  88. The South fought because they were attacked, and put up a valiant fight despite incredible odds. They were not fighting for 5% who owned slaves, or even against the Morill Tariff. They were protecting the land that they and their forebears settled in the face of hostilities from Indians and in a variety of unforgiving landscapes.

    Southerners honor those sacrifices, not the ultimate result in the win/loss column. They also resent what the removal of statues represents, and fear the slippery slope that is sure to follow. Statues are deleted/defaced after conquest, and they instinctively understand that the statues are being removed in concert with their own replacement.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Superb comments. And aren't you being overly charitable to the defamers of the South by estimating that five percent were slaveowners? I'll bet it was not even one percent of white people in the south who "owned" slaves.

    Very few people directly participated in that sick institution -- not counting the Africans who sold their vanquished enemies into New World slavery, of course. Nor the "northerners" who bought and sold the slaves along with those supposedly uniquely evil southerners.
  89. @Daniel Chieh
    Yeah, you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. This is the kind of historical revisionism that we can look forward to if liberals take over. Just awesome.

    So yeah, if you actually read any Lost Cause material, you'll know that it was heavily involved not with the "peculiar institution" but the idea of state's rights. Sure, in reality, its very likely that had as much if not more to do with slavery than anything else.

    But by the time it had gotten romanticized, it already has "sanitized" itself and did indeed try to focus on cultural relics involved with agrarian existence, as well as the attitudes needed for it - honor and courage in defending land, the strong sense of independence, the notions of noblesse oblige and the shared values that were definitely not urban.

    To destroy all of that would be tragic. Really, to trade for a world of say General Robert E Lee's conflicted morality, skilled generalship under desperate conditions, and complex religious yet belligerent personality so that we have a world better for maximum numbers of gender-confused brainless boobs is sickening.

    We abuse what is noble and beautiful; we celebrate the freak and the degenerate.

    Progress.

    We abuse what is noble and beautiful; we celebrate the freak and the degenerate.

    We, kimosabe?

    The we you long for no longer exists.

  90. @OilcanFloyd
    The Confederate/Civil War museum in my hometown has been turned into a museum about trains, though the local history is dominated by major Civil War battles and events, and the current curator compared Confederates to Nazis. In this environment, it's fitting that the local college now has a permanent Anne Frank exhibition, and another small college about an hour away has a Holocaust museum. That makes sense.

    The change in the museum in my hometown came about when it became affiliated with the Smithsonian.

    The change in the museum in my hometown came about when it became affiliated with the Smithsonian.

    The tweets I get from the Smithsonian are running a good 75% evangelical globohomo.

  91. @G Pinfold
    The Band...
    RIP Levon and Richard.

    The thing that always struck me as very unusual about The Band was that their main songwriter and most high profile member, Robertson, contributed so little to their actual recorded sound. His guitar playing was unremarkable, and I don’t think he ever sang at all – not even background. I’ve heard that the other members were ticked off that Scorcese’s documentary focused so much on him, and I think they had a point.

    • Replies: @G Pinfold
    Yes. There was an acrimonious split in the end. Essentially, Levon Helm believed his songs were ripped off by Robertson. I'm not an expert but there are numerous accounts out there mostly from one or other side of the dispute.
    As a kid I admit thinking it was Robertson's band because he was the 'rock star' out front with his guitar. Of course it was far from it.
    , @PiltdownMan

    I’ve heard that the other members were ticked off that Scorcese’s documentary focused so much on him, and I think they had a point.
     
    That was more Robertson than Scorsese, as I recall reading. Robertson was and is an articulate showboat who tends to hog the limelight in any situation, apparently. The Band was unusual among major rock bands in having three strong lead singers (Helm, Danko and Manuel), but Robertson's strength lay neither in his singing nor his guitar playing. It lay in his songwriting and unique songs, without which the band wouldn't have been The Band. So there's that.
  92. @PiltdownMan
    It crosses my mind, in an imprecise way, that the current liberal hatred of Russia, a country and culture that dwells on its historical hardships, is not dissimilar to the liberal hatred of the mourning that the South expresses for a lost cultural past. They hate poetic loserdom or, as Steve more perceptively and succinctly puts it, ambivalence and ambiguity.

    Dame Progress will bear no rival.

  93. Have you heard of the recent crisis,with blacks at LSU demanding that the nickname “Tigers” be changed? It honors a group of rebel soldiers who were renowned for their ferocity. Reading about how they were deployed to strike fear and confusion into the Union troops,my BogDar started pinging loudly. Yep it rarely fails. The Tigers were very Irish.
    I’ve read some pieces about Irish immigrants in the Confed. army. The stories are eye opening. I maintain that if Irish immigration to the South was higher, the South would’ve won.
    BTW,the blacks lament that the Tigers were meanies who mistreated their slaves. Au contraire, those Irish stevedores and longshoremen were very kind to their servants!

    • Replies: @Federalist
    They control New Orleans now and have turned it into a war zone without "offensive" statues, but they don't control the state. GEAUX TIGERS.
  94. @JohnnyD
    I don't think anyone, including blacks, really cared about the Confederate flag until the 1990s. Even our pal, Morris Dees, was ok with it.

    I’d seen a rebel flag front license plate on black guy’s Chevy Nova back in the late ’70’s, Johnny. It was nothing anyone had a problem with.

  95. Talking about ‘ambiguity’ is disingenuous, Southerners need to accept that they not only lost, but lost fighting for something which is morally reprehensible.

    When slavery is the hill you choose to die on, don’t be surprised when your grave gets shat on all the time.

    Southern revisionism is as bad as defending Serbs.

    • Replies: @res

    Southern revisionism
     
    I'm curious, which do you consider more revisionist?
    1. The status quo from say 1865-1965 of respect for the Confederates if not their cause.
    2. The current trampling into dust of the Confederate memory.
    , @BB753
    Because the humane solution to the aggression of Croatia, on one hand, and Bosnian Muslims in Bosnia and Albanians in Kossovo, on the other, against Serbs, was to bomb the hell out of them and side with their enemies.
    , @Autochthon
    Your insult to the Serbs is beyond preposterous to this veteran of the Kosovo Campaign. What squadron or other unit were you in there that you're so knowledgable about what happened? Or were you a civilian in-country? Do please regale us with your firsthand knowledge.
    , @Mr. Anon

    Talking about ‘ambiguity’ is disingenuous, Southerners need to accept that they not only lost, but lost fighting for something which is morally reprehensible.
     
    The North won fighting for something reprehensible - the desire of an empire to deny self-determination to a minority.

    And don't delude yourself that most of the North, including and especially the war-leaders, gave a solitary damn about the blacks.

  96. @Kylie
    "Something of the same happened with World War II (European Theater), where in the 1960s it was all right to joke about stupid Nazis in 'Hogan’s Heroes' and The Producers. No humor to be mined in that vein anymore."

    Overheard at a Redbox kiosk last week: "You want to rent 'Soldiers of the Damned'? It's a WWII movie." "Nah, it'll just make the Nazis out to be the bad guys."

    Overheard at a Redbox kiosk last week: “You want to rent ‘Soldiers of the Damned’? It’s a WWII movie.” “Nah, it’ll just make the Nazis out to be the bad guys.”

    Haha!

    • Replies: @Kylie
    I may or may not have said that in response to my husband's question. ;)
  97. @Daniel Chieh
    Yeah, you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. This is the kind of historical revisionism that we can look forward to if liberals take over. Just awesome.

    So yeah, if you actually read any Lost Cause material, you'll know that it was heavily involved not with the "peculiar institution" but the idea of state's rights. Sure, in reality, its very likely that had as much if not more to do with slavery than anything else.

    But by the time it had gotten romanticized, it already has "sanitized" itself and did indeed try to focus on cultural relics involved with agrarian existence, as well as the attitudes needed for it - honor and courage in defending land, the strong sense of independence, the notions of noblesse oblige and the shared values that were definitely not urban.

    To destroy all of that would be tragic. Really, to trade for a world of say General Robert E Lee's conflicted morality, skilled generalship under desperate conditions, and complex religious yet belligerent personality so that we have a world better for maximum numbers of gender-confused brainless boobs is sickening.

    We abuse what is noble and beautiful; we celebrate the freak and the degenerate.

    Progress.

    The only historical revisionism lies in portraying The Lost Cause as some sort of pure (even romantic) quest for the principle of states rights. The people who started and led the Confederacy were under no illusion about what their cause was; they were completely open about it.

    I don’t blame Southerners for this at all. Every group of people who are defeated and traumatized need myths to hold on to (there are a number of defeated and browbeaten countries around the world where such “Lost Cause/Culture” nostalgia lingers.) What I am puzzled by is why non-Southerners seem so moved by this, especially when the Cause was about slavery, from start to finish (plus rebellion, though that could easily have been forgiven if the Cause hadn’t been so abhorrent.)

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    That's because the Cause wasn't just about slavery.

    The average Confederate soldier didn't have a slave. Of those who did, most of them had a single slave who he worked with side-by-side. Even had the Confederacy had won, slavery would have probably phased out before too long simply due to economic concerns.

    But that still didn't that he wanted to be dictated from the Yankees - and why would anyone want to obey by fiat what someone who has never been in his life, never seen, and never interacted with? So in truth, he fought and died for his culture, a culture that included slavery, but which hardly was the whole of it.
    , @OilcanFloyd
    Do you buy the myths of the Union? Do you buy the current PC view of the Civil War? For most in the South, Confederate nostalgia is mostly about honoring the people who fought and our shared history and culture. Few whites or blacks would want to go back to the plantation or agricultural economy of the Old South or Jim Crow era.

    The Union myths are far more dishonest and corrosive at this point. It's a much larger stretch on the part of northerners to claim that the average Union soldier or northern citizen or politician believed in black equality or fought to free slaves either in the North or the South. Sectional divides were obvious in colonial times that had little to do with slavery.

    Is it worse to merely commemorate dead ancestors of a bygone era, or to falsely demonize a large part of the population, while dividing and inflaming others with a phony and childish good versus evil version of history?
  98. Another song about the Confederate soldier was sung by both Johnny Horton and Johnny Cash

    You fought all the way, Johnny Reb, Johnny Reb
    You fought all the way, Johnny Reb

    Saw you a-marchin’ with Robert E. Lee
    You held your head a-high, tryin’ to win the victory
    You fought for your folks but you didn’t die in vain
    Even though you lost, they speak highly of your name

    ‘Cause you fought all the way, Johnny Reb, Johnny Reb
    You fought all the way, Johnny Reb

    I heard your teeth chatter from the cold outside
    Saw the bullets open up the wounds in your side
    I saw the young boys as they begin to fall
    You had tears in your eyes, ’cause you couldn’t help at all

    But you fought all the way, Johnny Reb, Johnny Reb
    You fought all the way, Johnny Reb

    I saw General Lee raise the sabre in his hand
    Heard the cannon’s roar as you made your last stand
    You marched in the battle with the gray and the red
    When the cannon’s smoke cleared, took days to count the dead

    ‘Cause you fought all the way, Johnny Reb, Johnny Reb
    You fought all the way, Johnny Reb

    When Honest Abe heard the news about your fall
    The folks thought he’d call a great victory ball
    But he asked the band to play the song “Dixie”
    For you Johnny Reb and all that you believed

    ‘Cause you fought all the way, Johnny Reb, Johnny Reb
    Yeah, you fought all the way, Johnny Reb

    You fought all the way, Johnny Reb, Johnny Reb
    You fought all the way, Johnny Reb

    You fought all the way, Johnny Reb

    Songwriters
    MERLE KILGORE

    I think that the 1970 song Yellow River by Christie was also about a discharged Confederate soldier, but the lyrics make only a passing reference to the war.

  99. @Daniel Chieh
    Yeah, you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. This is the kind of historical revisionism that we can look forward to if liberals take over. Just awesome.

    So yeah, if you actually read any Lost Cause material, you'll know that it was heavily involved not with the "peculiar institution" but the idea of state's rights. Sure, in reality, its very likely that had as much if not more to do with slavery than anything else.

    But by the time it had gotten romanticized, it already has "sanitized" itself and did indeed try to focus on cultural relics involved with agrarian existence, as well as the attitudes needed for it - honor and courage in defending land, the strong sense of independence, the notions of noblesse oblige and the shared values that were definitely not urban.

    To destroy all of that would be tragic. Really, to trade for a world of say General Robert E Lee's conflicted morality, skilled generalship under desperate conditions, and complex religious yet belligerent personality so that we have a world better for maximum numbers of gender-confused brainless boobs is sickening.

    We abuse what is noble and beautiful; we celebrate the freak and the degenerate.

    Progress.

    Really, to trade for a world of say General Robert E Lee’s conflicted morality, skilled generalship under desperate conditions, and complex religious yet belligerent personality so that we have a world better for maximum numbers of gender-confused brainless boobs is sickening.

    Yeah, that’s all the world has: Robert E. Lee and “gender-confused boobs”. Nothing else.

    Talking about Robert Lee, here’s a hard (negative) look at the man: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/ . Can you find anything here that isn’t factual?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Mostly it reaffirms that he had a surprisingly good head on his shoulder. You're trying to use an article that is arguing for racial egalitarianism to a crowd that clearly knows better, from the cancerous Atlantic, of all places.

    Seriously.

    And yes, that's exactly what the world has. Globalists who want a single universal standard of "progress" for the world, and people who want to think differently. Think deplorably, even!

  100. @slumber_j
    I prefer the Band's version in The Last Waltz, and particularly Levon Helm's singing:

    https://youtu.be/jREUrbGGrgM

    It really is a great song.

    Baez was a hero to the left yet she had no problem doing this song. It probably financed her retirement.
    Can you see Ariana Grande doing this?

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    Joan Baez was critical of the Vietnamese communists when boat people began fleeing the nation. She got a lot of flack from fellow leftists for that. To me it indicated she had some integrity.
  101. XYZ says:

    I take a slightly different tact — the losers were never countercultural in the south. What they did have was a lot more time to think about losing and the war than the winning side. The Union was caught up in a frenetic economic and technological expansion after the Civil War that mainly bypassed the south. No time to look back forlornly.

    One data point: Kentucky (my former home) and a former slave state never left the Union and gave more men to it than the south. You would never guess that by the number of Confederate versus Union monuments (9 to 1 ratio).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_Civil_War_monuments_in_Kentucky
    http://www.leoweekly.com/2016/05/civil-war-monuments/

  102. Confederate soldiers are considered to be veterans, according to Federal law. It should be against Federal law to disturb or remove any monuments to these brave, honorable veterans…
    Of course, our American Taliban (descendents of useless, obsolete “farm machinery”) thinks otherwise…

  103. Oh and it looks like Trump will be impeached

    This Comey hearing is the nail in the coffin

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    But does Leonard Pitts agree?
    , @fish
    Ask not for who the bell tolls. It tolls for Leonard Pitts.
  104. @The Anti-Gnostic

    The South has been allowed to mourn its loss and honor its history since the war, and the nation accepted it at least grudgingly and sometimes even openly (Dukes of Hazard, etc.). Only now, fully 152 years after the end of the war, has it suddenly become evil to do so.
     
    When the Dukes of Hazzard (and Smokey and the Bandit, and TransAms, Firebirds, etc.) were popular the US was over 80% white, and we were younger and meaner. Now, those ornery Southerners are quiet old men in a country that's 60+% white and dropping.

    Change the people, change the culture.

    Agreed. The elites wanted to change the “demographics” the ethnicity. They have succeeded through endless immigration.

  105. @Tiny Duck
    Oh and it looks like Trump will be impeached

    This Comey hearing is the nail in the coffin

    But does Leonard Pitts agree?

  106. @Kylie
    A monument to chocolate.

    It needs some text. How about, “I have a dream”?

    • LOL: Kylie
  107. @eah
    Yo!

    https://twitter.com/occdissent/status/872581121690787840

    It would serve to expose the clefts in our society.

  108. @Daniel Chieh
    I grew up on stories of the Confederacy and sympathetic literature. I think that the "misplaced" outrage of late is actually completely consistent with modern, liberal norms: its an effort to not only crush all history of resistance, but also defile the memory of anyrival system of civilization.

    Its not enough, for example, that the Confederacy lost. Its not enough to state that it was arguably a cruel and inefficient system that nonetheless had some noble generals and elegant belles.

    No, until the entire memory has been pervaded with the worst observations, until every single participant is seen as a subhuman demon so repugnant that the liberal must also search his or her family to rid even comparable wrongthink, until it is continually stamped and soiled and spat upon, it must continue to be attacked by the modern commissars.

    Because it is very hard to kill the soul of a people. But they've found, if you try hard enough, you can do even that, and then we can all be submitted to the only acceptable gods: Mammon and Moloch.

    Its not enough, for example, that the Confederacy lost. Its not enough to state that it was arguably a cruel and inefficient system that nonetheless had some noble generals and elegant belles

    .

    I think your post is spot on about the need to destroy the history of the Confederacy, but I think a reading of history that concentrates only on generals and belles is half-way there to destroying the history already. Granted, the history is somewhat personal to me, since many of my Confederate ancestors fought on battlefields in the area where I grew up, and maybe even on the exact piece of land where I was raised.

    The average Confederate soldier was not a slave owner, and competed against the plantation economy, which was the case for my own ancestors, at least judging by the census records of the ones that I have seen. They fought for years against a larger and better armed and supplied army, under brutal conditions, mostly on southern soil. That is heroic. As far as I know, there are no diaries or letters left by my Confederate ancestors, so I don’t know what kind of people they were, what they thought or exactly why they fought, but I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and honor their lives and very real sacrifices.

    It’s not uncommon to drive by makeshift Confederate graves or groups of graves, where I grew up, so it’s hard not to make the history personal, or to resent the hell out of Anne Frank, Train or Holocaust museums forcibly taking the place of actual local history.

    It’s also worth mentioning that it wasn’t uncommon for plantations to be owned by Northerners or transplants, who viewed the plantation as nothing more than a business venture, as did northern slave traders and slave owners. Based on the accounts that I have read, the attitude of the Planters towards the small farmers was akin to the attitude of the English landed aristocracy to their yeoman and serf farmers, which wasn’t exactly paternalistic.

    Several weeks ago, I went on a trip to Ft. Sumter with my son’s scout group, and the history lesson on the ferry was complete PC garbage, full of talk about racism and inequality. I’m very familiar with the opposite history where the defeat of Confederacy was the defeat of God’s will on earth, so I know it goes both ways. The truth is that the War was a conflict between competing economies and cultures, both with flaws and many warts? I’d also be willing to bet that the average northern industrial worker benefited more from the slave trade, due to the fact that the trade often supplied the raw materials for his industry, than did the average small farmer of the South.

    http://slavenorth.com

    • Agree: anarchyst
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Oh, absolutely. A less sympathetic reading would note that like most wars, it was started by the wealthiest and the costs were carried overwhelmingly by the poor - as usual. But it doesn't make the efforts of the individuals who fought in it any less worthy of admiration.
  109. I don’t see how anyone can walk around Detroit, Newark, East Cleveland, or many other Union cities, and claim the Confederates lost. They sure got their revenge.

    They spread their religion of diversity as a strength. Their own party is still the vehicle.

  110. J.Ross says: • Website

    I grew up in the North and can confidently and seriously insist that every single god-damned thing I ever heard about the South was a bigoted and baseless lie on the order of ritual tribalist reinforcements in the Old Testament. Just last night a point I was making in an online discussion was flatly dismissed because, as my interlocutor knowingly nodded, “that’s the South, and we all know what the South is like.” Indeed, we know it so well, there’s no need to actually check.
    It is not the South that needs to desecrate memorials of white working men who suffered and strained for two governments that both hated them. It is the North that needs to grow out of its fake superiority.
    ———
    *Of course California is both and neither: “North” and “South” in these discussions refer to the partisans and not geography.

  111. @Konrad
    Talking about 'ambiguity' is disingenuous, Southerners need to accept that they not only lost, but lost fighting for something which is morally reprehensible.

    When slavery is the hill you choose to die on, don't be surprised when your grave gets shat on all the time.

    Southern revisionism is as bad as defending Serbs.

    Southern revisionism

    I’m curious, which do you consider more revisionist?
    1. The status quo from say 1865-1965 of respect for the Confederates if not their cause.
    2. The current trampling into dust of the Confederate memory.

  112. @Seamus Padraig
    Interesting idea. But is it really true that the US as a whole never commemorates a defeat? What about the Vietnam Wall in Washington? And think about all those songs and movies about Vietnam? What is that if not commemorating a defeat?

    Seamus, the Vietnam Memorial honors those who died in the conflict/war. “Tora, Tora, ‘Tora’” is a movie about the Japanese attack, successful I might add, on the Pacific Naval base at Pearl Harbor. Hollywood made that movie, not the Japanese, but I don’t think it commemorates the defeat, but rather portrays the event. Not trying to split hairs.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon

    “Tora, Tora, ‘Tora’” is a movie about the Japanese attack, successful I might add, on the Pacific Naval base at Pearl Harbor. Hollywood made that movie, not the Japanese, but I don’t think it commemorates the defeat, but rather portrays the event.
     
    Actually, it was a joint Japanese-American production. But as you say, the movie strove primarily to just portray the event (which is one of the reasons it was a good movie).
  113. @Father O'Hara
    Have you heard of the recent crisis,with blacks at LSU demanding that the nickname "Tigers" be changed? It honors a group of rebel soldiers who were renowned for their ferocity. Reading about how they were deployed to strike fear and confusion into the Union troops,my BogDar started pinging loudly. Yep it rarely fails. The Tigers were very Irish.
    I've read some pieces about Irish immigrants in the Confed. army. The stories are eye opening. I maintain that if Irish immigration to the South was higher, the South would've won.
    BTW,the blacks lament that the Tigers were meanies who mistreated their slaves. Au contraire, those Irish stevedores and longshoremen were very kind to their servants!

    They control New Orleans now and have turned it into a war zone without “offensive” statues, but they don’t control the state. GEAUX TIGERS.

  114. @Anon
    I don't see why we need to honor racists and traitors.

    Germany doesn't celebrate nazis

    Demographic change and the end of white male supremacy cannot come fast enough

    Tiny? Is that you or Nick?

    • Replies: @Unladen Swallow
    It's Duck, doing his shocked and feigned outrage shtick.
  115. @Crawfurdmuir

    True, and interesting because you’d think the sequence would be the opposite–”time heals all wounds,” but not when there’s axes to be ground.
     
    And why are the axes to be ground?

    The 1960s civil rights movement, as I remember it, was not concerned about Confederate monuments, the battle flag, etc. Its emphasis was on desegregating schools, public accommodations, and housing, and enabling blacks to vote. These aims were accomplished by judicial decrees and legislation. However, fifty years later, the altruistic goal of "integration," so often championed by 'sixties liberals, has not been achieved. While the removal of the civil disabilities blacks once endured has been very good for the "talented tenth" - there is a flourishing black elite - the not-so-talented nine-tenths of the black population has not prospered. Tom Sowell has pointed out that rates of illegitimate birth, welfare dependency, and incarceration are all higher among blacks today than they were in 1940, when Jim Crow prevailed in one-third of the country, and there were no anti-discrimination laws in the rest of it.

    Something must be to blame for this, mustn't it? And the self-appointed black leaders have decided that it's those Confederate statues. So down they must come, and the names of Confederate historical figures (and ante-bellum slaveholders such as Jefferson, Madison, or Jackson) must be excised from public buildings, streets, and parks. It is an act of damnatio memoriæ akin to the Jacobins' exhumation and destruction of the remains of the kings of France, and their chiseling of coats-of-arms from the façades of buildings, because these were reminders of the pre-revolutionary era.

    And when all this is done, will it have got any black person better employment, education, or other improvement in his material condition?

    “And when all this is done, will it have got any black person better employment, education, or other improvement in his material condition?”

    http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2017/06/new_orleans_shooting_2017_high.html

    http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2017/06/orleans_parish_is_nations_most.html

  116. @Patrick Harris
    But the coalition between white Southerners and mostly Catholic immigrants *was* the basis for the Democratic Party until roughly midcentury (the original "coalition of the fringes," if you will). The GOP was always the party of the American "core," (though until the 30's they were also the party of Blacks), it's just that what that means has changed dramatically as a result of shifting demographics and the cultural upheaval of the 60's.

    The GOP was always the party of the American “core,”

    Huh? How do Southern Whites get written out of the American core?

    • Replies: @Patrick Harris
    The "core" here isn't solely ethnic. Of course Southerners were essential in building America. But the postbellum South was much, much, poorer than the rest of the country, overwhelmingly rural, and accordingly insular.

    Air conditioning made a big difference.
  117. OT:

    A young woman committed a mass shooting and all of the great and good continue to use he/his pronouns when referring to her.

    Where’s rhe LGBTQARSTD community on this?

  118. @Numinous
    The only historical revisionism lies in portraying The Lost Cause as some sort of pure (even romantic) quest for the principle of states rights. The people who started and led the Confederacy were under no illusion about what their cause was; they were completely open about it.

    I don't blame Southerners for this at all. Every group of people who are defeated and traumatized need myths to hold on to (there are a number of defeated and browbeaten countries around the world where such "Lost Cause/Culture" nostalgia lingers.) What I am puzzled by is why non-Southerners seem so moved by this, especially when the Cause was about slavery, from start to finish (plus rebellion, though that could easily have been forgiven if the Cause hadn't been so abhorrent.)

    That’s because the Cause wasn’t just about slavery.

    The average Confederate soldier didn’t have a slave. Of those who did, most of them had a single slave who he worked with side-by-side. Even had the Confederacy had won, slavery would have probably phased out before too long simply due to economic concerns.

    But that still didn’t that he wanted to be dictated from the Yankees – and why would anyone want to obey by fiat what someone who has never been in his life, never seen, and never interacted with? So in truth, he fought and died for his culture, a culture that included slavery, but which hardly was the whole of it.

  119. @Achmed E. Newman

    ..... Feminism?
     
    No thanks.

    I wasn’t selling. I have a low opinion of people who deal drugs to kids!

  120. @Numinous

    Really, to trade for a world of say General Robert E Lee’s conflicted morality, skilled generalship under desperate conditions, and complex religious yet belligerent personality so that we have a world better for maximum numbers of gender-confused brainless boobs is sickening.
     
    Yeah, that's all the world has: Robert E. Lee and "gender-confused boobs". Nothing else.

    Talking about Robert Lee, here's a hard (negative) look at the man: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/ . Can you find anything here that isn't factual?

    Mostly it reaffirms that he had a surprisingly good head on his shoulder. You’re trying to use an article that is arguing for racial egalitarianism to a crowd that clearly knows better, from the cancerous Atlantic, of all places.

    Seriously.

    And yes, that’s exactly what the world has. Globalists who want a single universal standard of “progress” for the world, and people who want to think differently. Think deplorably, even!

  121. @Desiderius
    The Jews took some casualties, but they weren't on the losing side.

    Certainly European Jews under Axis control lost big. Holocaust museums and memorials commemorate them first and foremost. I would think it’s a depressing legacy to promote, although I do see its usefulness as a guilt-trip slave morality weapon to be used against nationalist goys.

    If you’re hinting at a broader concern as to who’s ‘winning’ in an ongoing who/whom struggle, don’t take that black pill just yet.

    “The future shall be full of interest.”

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    The ones who died did, not so much the rest. As usual.

    I do have faith that good will prevail in the end. The Jews will prevail all along as they ever have.

    The trick is getting them to come around to the good.
  122. @OilcanFloyd

    Its not enough, for example, that the Confederacy lost. Its not enough to state that it was arguably a cruel and inefficient system that nonetheless had some noble generals and elegant belles
     
    .

    I think your post is spot on about the need to destroy the history of the Confederacy, but I think a reading of history that concentrates only on generals and belles is half-way there to destroying the history already. Granted, the history is somewhat personal to me, since many of my Confederate ancestors fought on battlefields in the area where I grew up, and maybe even on the exact piece of land where I was raised.

    The average Confederate soldier was not a slave owner, and competed against the plantation economy, which was the case for my own ancestors, at least judging by the census records of the ones that I have seen. They fought for years against a larger and better armed and supplied army, under brutal conditions, mostly on southern soil. That is heroic. As far as I know, there are no diaries or letters left by my Confederate ancestors, so I don’t know what kind of people they were, what they thought or exactly why they fought, but I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and honor their lives and very real sacrifices.

    It’s not uncommon to drive by makeshift Confederate graves or groups of graves, where I grew up, so it’s hard not to make the history personal, or to resent the hell out of Anne Frank, Train or Holocaust museums forcibly taking the place of actual local history.

    It’s also worth mentioning that it wasn’t uncommon for plantations to be owned by Northerners or transplants, who viewed the plantation as nothing more than a business venture, as did northern slave traders and slave owners. Based on the accounts that I have read, the attitude of the Planters towards the small farmers was akin to the attitude of the English landed aristocracy to their yeoman and serf farmers, which wasn’t exactly paternalistic.

    Several weeks ago, I went on a trip to Ft. Sumter with my son’s scout group, and the history lesson on the ferry was complete PC garbage, full of talk about racism and inequality. I’m very familiar with the opposite history where the defeat of Confederacy was the defeat of God’s will on earth, so I know it goes both ways. The truth is that the War was a conflict between competing economies and cultures, both with flaws and many warts? I’d also be willing to bet that the average northern industrial worker benefited more from the slave trade, due to the fact that the trade often supplied the raw materials for his industry, than did the average small farmer of the South.

    http://slavenorth.com

    Oh, absolutely. A less sympathetic reading would note that like most wars, it was started by the wealthiest and the costs were carried overwhelmingly by the poor – as usual. But it doesn’t make the efforts of the individuals who fought in it any less worthy of admiration.

  123. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    There’s an old Anglo-Saxon tradition of admiring a beautiful loser. Look at Dunkirk and the Charge of the Light Brigade. Look at literature from Beowulf to Hamlet and beyond them to all those heros who die in the end. There are many examples of this in popular culture. This is why Southerners cherish the Confederacy.

  124. OT:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-08/major-escalation-syrian-drone-attacks-us-alliance-forces

    One day after a pro-Assad military alliance threatened to strike US forces in Syria in retaliation for a US bombing of an Iran-backed militia operating in an allegedly “no-go zone” near a US garrison in southern Syria, near the town of At Tanf, the Syrians allegedly followed through on their promise, and according to Reuters, a pro-Syrian regime armed drone attacked U.S.-led coalition forces in Syria, for which it was promptly shot down in what the Pentagon dubbed “a major escalation of tensions between Washington and troops supporting Damascus.”

    We have boots on the ground in Syria?

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Certainly, and if the traitor-state keeps going like it is, we'll have boots on the ground in Langley.
    , @Anonymous Nephew
    "We have boots on the ground in Syria?"

    Obama sent special forces - IIRC 500 or more. I know he said he wouldn't. Still there AFAIK.
  125. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The Civil War was a tragic event that killed 700,000 Americans. It should never have happened. Of course, that was followed by two World Wars that may have sealed the doom of the West.

    Western liberals have been on fire to “burn the whole thing down” for a very long time.

  126. @Numinous
    The only historical revisionism lies in portraying The Lost Cause as some sort of pure (even romantic) quest for the principle of states rights. The people who started and led the Confederacy were under no illusion about what their cause was; they were completely open about it.

    I don't blame Southerners for this at all. Every group of people who are defeated and traumatized need myths to hold on to (there are a number of defeated and browbeaten countries around the world where such "Lost Cause/Culture" nostalgia lingers.) What I am puzzled by is why non-Southerners seem so moved by this, especially when the Cause was about slavery, from start to finish (plus rebellion, though that could easily have been forgiven if the Cause hadn't been so abhorrent.)

    Do you buy the myths of the Union? Do you buy the current PC view of the Civil War? For most in the South, Confederate nostalgia is mostly about honoring the people who fought and our shared history and culture. Few whites or blacks would want to go back to the plantation or agricultural economy of the Old South or Jim Crow era.

    The Union myths are far more dishonest and corrosive at this point. It’s a much larger stretch on the part of northerners to claim that the average Union soldier or northern citizen or politician believed in black equality or fought to free slaves either in the North or the South. Sectional divides were obvious in colonial times that had little to do with slavery.

    Is it worse to merely commemorate dead ancestors of a bygone era, or to falsely demonize a large part of the population, while dividing and inflaming others with a phony and childish good versus evil version of history?

  127. @slumber_j
    I prefer the Band's version in The Last Waltz, and particularly Levon Helm's singing:

    https://youtu.be/jREUrbGGrgM

    It really is a great song.

    Agreed.

    Steve’s usually dead on, but why put up the Joan Baez version especially for a song that starts “Virgil Caine is the name …” when it’s The Band’s song and Levon Helm sings a believable Virgil Caine.

    • Disagree: Jenner Ickham Errican
  128. Posted it before, but here’s the eloquent passage from Henry James’ The Bostonians where Basil Ransom visits Harvard’s Memorial Hall:

    “Now there is one place where perhaps it would be indelicate to take a Mississippian,” Verena said, after this episode. “I mean the great place that towers above the others—that big building with the beautiful pinnacles, which you see from every point.” But Basil Ransom had heard of the great Memorial Hall; he knew what memories it enshrined, and the worst that he should have to suffer there; and the ornate, overtopping structure, which was the finest piece of architecture he had ever seen, had moreover solicited his enlarged curiosity for the last half-hour. He thought there was rather too much brick about it, but it was buttressed, cloistered, turreted, dedicated, superscribed, as he had never seen anything; though it didn’t look old, it looked significant; it covered a large area, and it sprang majestic into the winter air. It was detached from the rest of the collegiate group, and stood in a grassy triangle of its own. As he approached it with Verena she suddenly stopped, to decline responsibility. “Now mind, if you don’t like what’s inside, it isn’t my fault.”

    He looked at her an instant, smiling. “Is there anything against Mississippi?”

    “Well, no, I don’t think she is mentioned. But there is great praise of our young men in the war.”

    “It says they were brave, I suppose.”

    “Yes, it says so in Latin.”

    “Well, so they were—I know something about that,” Basil Ransom said. “I must be brave enough to face them—it isn’t the first time.” And they went up the low steps and passed into the tall doors. The Memorial Hall of Harvard consists of three main divisions: one of them a theatre, for academic ceremonies; another a vast refectory, covered with a timbered roof, hung about with portraits and lighted by stained windows, like the halls of the colleges of Oxford; and the third, the most interesting, a chamber high, dim, and severe, consecrated to the sons of the university who fell in the long Civil War. Ransom and his companion wandered from one part of the building to another, and stayed their steps at several impressive points; but they lingered longest in the presence of the white, ranged tablets, each of which, in its proud, sad clearness, is inscribed with the name of a student-soldier. The effect of the place is singularly noble and solemn, and it is impossible to feel it without a lifting of the heart. It stands there for duty and honour, it speaks of sacrifice and example, seems a kind of temple to youth, manhood, generosity. Most of them were young, all were in their prime, and all of them had fallen; this simple idea hovers before the visitor and makes him read with tenderness each name and place—names often without other history, and forgotten Southern battles. For Ransom these things were not a challenge nor a taunt; they touched him with respect, with the sentiment of beauty. He was capable of being a generous foeman, and he forgot, now, the whole question of sides and parties; the simple emotion of the old fighting-time came back to him, and the monument around him seemed an embodiment of that memory; it arched over friends as well as enemies, the victims of defeat as well as the sons of triumph.

  129. @Konrad
    Talking about 'ambiguity' is disingenuous, Southerners need to accept that they not only lost, but lost fighting for something which is morally reprehensible.

    When slavery is the hill you choose to die on, don't be surprised when your grave gets shat on all the time.

    Southern revisionism is as bad as defending Serbs.

    Because the humane solution to the aggression of Croatia, on one hand, and Bosnian Muslims in Bosnia and Albanians in Kossovo, on the other, against Serbs, was to bomb the hell out of them and side with their enemies.

    • Agree: Autochthon
    • Replies: @snorlax
    That was certainly not America's finest moment, especially given the events of a few years later, but on the other hand it was (insufficient) karma for the Serbs' behavior of earlier in the century, when they encountered their grandfather Western Civilization standing at the end of the roof, balanced on one leg and babbling incoherently, and, thinking of some imagined slight from him earlier that day, gave him a good hard shove over the edge.
  130. @JohnnyD
    I don't think anyone, including blacks, really cared about the Confederate flag until the 1990s. Even our pal, Morris Dees, was ok with it.

    I wore a Confederate flag t-shirt which vowed “The South Shall Rise Again” in high school on a dare in the late 90s, not thinking it would cause trouble but rather be a silly prank. It did cause a bit of commotion (I got pulled into a class or two so people could laugh at it), but most of the day nothing happened. Then a teacher ordered me to cover it up. Maybe because he thought it would offend the 2.5 black students.

    More likely, he just assumed I wasn’t able to wear anything like that. Same way he’d assume I couldn’t wear a shirt displaying graphic sexual images, probably.

  131. SlumberJ, Thanks for mining this video after I weighed in early this am before going off to the salt mines. Enjoyed viewing the others’ comments, too. I love The Band’s rendition. Not much of a music afficiando, I guess, but I find their version powerful and moving (and I’m not a Southerner). Maybe I know good singing when I hear it, though.

  132. After the Civil War the freed slaves had a conundrum, slavery was bad, even horrid, but what to do and where to go was terrifying to many. In the book, “Bullwhip Days, The Slaves Remember”, an oral history told by freed slaves, many slaves missed the routine and security of living on a plantation. A house slave had to know that they could never replicate living in a magnificent house and being finely dressed. I am not naïve and I understand the Stockholm Syndrome, but many Americans lived in housing and dressed in clothes worst than those of the slaves. In a sense the South’s defeat had a negative effect on many slaves.

    • Replies: @guest
    The otherwise PC Civil War soap opera Mercy Street surprised me by showing what crappy lives freed slaves lived. Which I guess is permissible because no matter how negatively they portray it you can tell they don't expect the audience to for one second question the legitimacy of emancipation.

    Plus, it affords them the opportunity to bring in a social working negress to lecture white folks and lament the lack of institutions and money to close the Gap. Like a Cassandra, waiting in vain for an Obama to be born and organize her community.
  133. It’s part of the war on whiteness. 620,000 (white) soldiers died in the war between the states. SJW’s should revere both Lincoln and Lee.

    • Replies: @iffen
    WC, I think you are missing something. SJWs are not concerned about white deaths.
  134. So we need some levity here, what with all the Southern Hero statutes being trashed. There is a protocol to military equestrian statues. An officer, seated on his horse, and the horse having all four feet on the ground symbolizes that the officer served in combat. A statute of an officer on his mount, where the horse has one front foot off the ground, symbolizes that the officer was wounded in combat. A statue where the officer is seated on his horse and the horse has both front feet off the ground means the officer was killed in combat. A statue where the officer is seated on his horse and the horse has all four feet off the ground, means the officer was killed in a Merry-go-Round accident.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
    Lynda Carter will give you some levity and/or levitation.

    Lynda Carter may be the most beautiful American woman of the last 50 years.
  135. @Buffalo Joe
    So we need some levity here, what with all the Southern Hero statutes being trashed. There is a protocol to military equestrian statues. An officer, seated on his horse, and the horse having all four feet on the ground symbolizes that the officer served in combat. A statute of an officer on his mount, where the horse has one front foot off the ground, symbolizes that the officer was wounded in combat. A statue where the officer is seated on his horse and the horse has both front feet off the ground means the officer was killed in combat. A statue where the officer is seated on his horse and the horse has all four feet off the ground, means the officer was killed in a Merry-go-Round accident.

    Lynda Carter will give you some levity and/or levitation.

    Lynda Carter may be the most beautiful American woman of the last 50 years.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob

    Lynda Carter will give you some levity and/or levitation.
     
    Lynda Carter could give me anything she wanted to.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Charles I will look for a photo of Ms. Carter. A couple of weeks ago someone wowed me with a photo of Maude Adams. What a bad first name for such a gorgeous woman.
  136. @Buffalo Joe
    Tiny? Is that you or Nick?

    It’s Duck, doing his shocked and feigned outrage shtick.

  137. @Achmed E. Newman

    Overheard at a Redbox kiosk last week: “You want to rent ‘Soldiers of the Damned’? It’s a WWII movie.” “Nah, it’ll just make the Nazis out to be the bad guys.”
     
    Haha!

    I may or may not have said that in response to my husband’s question. 😉

  138. @Daniel Chieh
    OT:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-08/major-escalation-syrian-drone-attacks-us-alliance-forces

    One day after a pro-Assad military alliance threatened to strike US forces in Syria in retaliation for a US bombing of an Iran-backed militia operating in an allegedly "no-go zone" near a US garrison in southern Syria, near the town of At Tanf, the Syrians allegedly followed through on their promise, and according to Reuters, a pro-Syrian regime armed drone attacked U.S.-led coalition forces in Syria, for which it was promptly shot down in what the Pentagon dubbed "a major escalation of tensions between Washington and troops supporting Damascus."
     
    We have boots on the ground in Syria?

    Certainly, and if the traitor-state keeps going like it is, we’ll have boots on the ground in Langley.

  139. Jake says:
    @Patrick Harris
    But the coalition between white Southerners and mostly Catholic immigrants *was* the basis for the Democratic Party until roughly midcentury (the original "coalition of the fringes," if you will). The GOP was always the party of the American "core," (though until the 30's they were also the party of Blacks), it's just that what that means has changed dramatically as a result of shifting demographics and the cultural upheaval of the 60's.

    So the original coalition of the fringes featured the people of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, James Madison, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson.

    Just rattling that around for a while in your head and then saying it aloud should help. Without the fringe of the white South, there never could have been any America.

    The Republican Party was a revolutionary party. That’s the reason all those Liberal Northern Protestants supported it, as did all the Liberal Northern journalists and college professors. .That’s the reason the German 1848ers (they of the pro-communist revolution that failed) all became good Republicans, good Lincoln men, pro-Reconstruction folks.

    There never was a one core of America. What amounted to the core of New England, NY, and Philadelphia was genteelly Liberal. And that core was the intellectual and spiritual base of the original Republican Party. Add to that the German 48ers, and the Know-Nothings who delighted in hating virtually all whites who were neither British nor German Protestants, and you have the Party of Lincoln and Grant.

    • Replies: @Patrick Harris
    You're badly misunderstanding me. Of course the South was essential to the building of America. But after the Civil War it (especially the Deep South) spent the better part of a century much, much poorer than the North or West; regional differences are much smaller by comparison today. The South remained overwhelminhly rural until after WW2 and participated less in many developments in the mainstream of national life, a bit like the way Ireland fit into the U.K.

    I'm a proud Alabamian, by the way.

  140. @Buffalo Joe
    After the Civil War the freed slaves had a conundrum, slavery was bad, even horrid, but what to do and where to go was terrifying to many. In the book, "Bullwhip Days, The Slaves Remember", an oral history told by freed slaves, many slaves missed the routine and security of living on a plantation. A house slave had to know that they could never replicate living in a magnificent house and being finely dressed. I am not naïve and I understand the Stockholm Syndrome, but many Americans lived in housing and dressed in clothes worst than those of the slaves. In a sense the South's defeat had a negative effect on many slaves.

    The otherwise PC Civil War soap opera Mercy Street surprised me by showing what crappy lives freed slaves lived. Which I guess is permissible because no matter how negatively they portray it you can tell they don’t expect the audience to for one second question the legitimacy of emancipation.

    Plus, it affords them the opportunity to bring in a social working negress to lecture white folks and lament the lack of institutions and money to close the Gap. Like a Cassandra, waiting in vain for an Obama to be born and organize her community.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    guest, Thank you for the heads up about Mercy Street. When you ride around in the South, not all of those sad looking shacks that you see belonged to slaves. Many sharecroppers and dirt farmers lived lives in abject poverty. Not to mention the tenement houses in NYC.
  141. @slumber_j
    I prefer the Band's version in The Last Waltz, and particularly Levon Helm's singing:

    https://youtu.be/jREUrbGGrgM

    It really is a great song.

    I vastly prefer Baez’s rendition. Though she somewhat muffed the lyrics, her voice is emotionally compelling, like she’s actually channelling the war-weary voice of “Virgil Caine.” Also her folk style arrangement is far more authentic to the character, unlike the Band’s arrangement (as posted) which is incongruently modern and jazzy, almost disrespectfully so.

    When Joan’s version gets to the chorus of men and women, there’s a perfect blend of pride and lament that reveals a community—“And all the bells were ringing / And all the people were singing”—which shares a mysterious and ineffable identity.

    By contrast, the Band’s performance is a bunch of dudes showing off their chops and having a good old time, with some incidental Civil War references.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    I dislike most of what Baez did, because she was so preachy.

    But her version of Diamonds and Rust is beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGMHSbcd_qI
    , @slumber_j
    What's jazzy about it? It strikes me more as an oom-pah band on the town square, which seems fitting. Listen to the tuba.
  142. @Charles Pewitt
    Lynda Carter will give you some levity and/or levitation.

    Lynda Carter may be the most beautiful American woman of the last 50 years.

    Lynda Carter will give you some levity and/or levitation.

    Lynda Carter could give me anything she wanted to.

  143. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    I vastly prefer Baez’s rendition. Though she somewhat muffed the lyrics, her voice is emotionally compelling, like she’s actually channelling the war-weary voice of “Virgil Caine.” Also her folk style arrangement is far more authentic to the character, unlike the Band’s arrangement (as posted) which is incongruently modern and jazzy, almost disrespectfully so.

    When Joan’s version gets to the chorus of men and women, there’s a perfect blend of pride and lament that reveals a community—“And all the bells were ringing / And all the people were singing”—which shares a mysterious and ineffable identity.

    By contrast, the Band’s performance is a bunch of dudes showing off their chops and having a good old time, with some incidental Civil War references.

    I dislike most of what Baez did, because she was so preachy.

    But her version of Diamonds and Rust is beautiful.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Baez was the best female folksinger America ever produced, arguably challengable only if one considers Emmylou Harris a folksinger. And either way it's a close run.
  144. @Buck Turgidson
    There is a beautiful statue dedicated to the Confederate soldiers near the heart of Alexandria VA. I expect the leftist are eyeing it and will look to remove it soon.

    Thanks for sharing that great song, Steve. The Band did a terrific version, as well.

    “The Band did a terrific version, as well.” Robbie Robertson wrote it. Levon Helm sung a superior version to Baez. Don’t know why Steve linked the Baez version. Zac Brown Band does a better version as well.

  145. Virgil quick come see
    There goes Robert E Lee
    on a flatbed truck headed for the foundry

    • LOL: Buffalo Joe
  146. @Anon
    I don't see why we need to honor racists and traitors.

    Germany doesn't celebrate nazis

    Demographic change and the end of white male supremacy cannot come fast enough

    Demographic change and the end of white male supremacy cannot come fast enough

    This is quite overtly racist and mean spirited. You are a racist for cheering large demographic shrinkage of a race that you dislike

    I don’t see why we need to honor racists and traitors.

    You are overtly racist…

    Germany doesn’t celebrate nazis

    Nor, did they celebrate Islam either, until very recently.

  147. @Charles Pewitt
    Lynda Carter will give you some levity and/or levitation.

    Lynda Carter may be the most beautiful American woman of the last 50 years.

    Charles I will look for a photo of Ms. Carter. A couple of weeks ago someone wowed me with a photo of Maude Adams. What a bad first name for such a gorgeous woman.

    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
    Right out of the gate Maud Adams brings to mind a Bond movie where she is naked in bed lying on her stomach looking back intertwined with white sheets. Swedish sweetheart.

    Maud Adams is beautiful.

    Talking about beautiful women is just like talking about beautiful trees or beautiful architecture or any beautiful art. It doesn't make one a bad person to do so, I think.
  148. @guest
    The otherwise PC Civil War soap opera Mercy Street surprised me by showing what crappy lives freed slaves lived. Which I guess is permissible because no matter how negatively they portray it you can tell they don't expect the audience to for one second question the legitimacy of emancipation.

    Plus, it affords them the opportunity to bring in a social working negress to lecture white folks and lament the lack of institutions and money to close the Gap. Like a Cassandra, waiting in vain for an Obama to be born and organize her community.

    guest, Thank you for the heads up about Mercy Street. When you ride around in the South, not all of those sad looking shacks that you see belonged to slaves. Many sharecroppers and dirt farmers lived lives in abject poverty. Not to mention the tenement houses in NYC.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
  149. I’ve always loved this video of a Indo-European festival in Oakland back in 1977 😉 Note that Rebel flag on the stage.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan

    I’ve always loved this video of a Indo-European festival in Oakland back in 1977 ;-) Note that Rebel flag on the stage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxIWDmmqZzY
     
    But where are the H-1B programmers and call center workers?
    , @Anonymous
    And Ronnie Van Zant wearing a Neil Young t-shirt "Tonights The Night".
  150. @OilcanFloyd
    How did you guess?

    Old haunts, friend; and many years watching a delayed-blast wave of sewege approaching unfathomable leagues from the shore with a perspicacity to sunder time and distance.

  151. @G Pinfold
    Richard Manuel and Rick Danko, I meant to say.

    Levon Helms is also deceased.

    • Replies: @G Pinfold
    Yes, I initially said Levon and Richard (thinking of R Manuel). Rick Danko's passing in 1999 slipped my mind. Thanks.
  152. @Achmed E. Newman
    lyrics should be: "I swear by the blood below my feet."

    That's part of your answer - this wasn't some battle in Grenada or even a Korean "conflict" level war. The casualties were about as many as in all other wars fought by American men combined, in a population that was 10 % the size of the present day's.

    This War of Northern Aggression greatly affected 3 generations or so like nothing before or since. Another reason for the up-till-now great respect for the South is the knowledge of how well they fought against big odds to defend their countries for four years. The modern cntrl-left want to bury this history (note a song like this would never be "allowed" today). They are doing a pretty good job of it so far.

    War of Northern Aggression

    Give us a f***ing break!

    I think we should celebrate all Confederate holidays, including R. E. Lee’s horse’s birthday. Do you know what we should do on those holidays. We should exhume the body of a different fire-eater every year and hang the SOB, then re-bury him. (with proper honors of course)

    • Replies: @Kyle McKenna

    I think we should celebrate all Confederate holidays, including R. E. Lee’s horse’s birthday.
     
    Good idea: Traveler was a hero in his own right.
  153. @Buffalo Joe
    Charles I will look for a photo of Ms. Carter. A couple of weeks ago someone wowed me with a photo of Maude Adams. What a bad first name for such a gorgeous woman.

    Right out of the gate Maud Adams brings to mind a Bond movie where she is naked in bed lying on her stomach looking back intertwined with white sheets. Swedish sweetheart.

    Maud Adams is beautiful.

    Talking about beautiful women is just like talking about beautiful trees or beautiful architecture or any beautiful art. It doesn’t make one a bad person to do so, I think.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    I'm guessing, Charles, that the reason Buffalo Joe did not have an image of any kind of beautiful woman is that there is this Maude Adams, that I'd also never heard of, and then there's Maude!

    197o's Norman Lear TV - Maude was a nasty feminist character (though still funny) in the show that was a spin-off of All in the Family. Maude was some cousin or something of Archie Bunker, but you only watched the show to see the "big blue eyes" of her daughter. We still had a black&white TV then.

    She did absolutely NOT lay on the bed on her stomach intertwined in the sheets, or I would probably be reading your comment in braille.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Charles, My wife is a very attractive woman, but years ago she gave me a "Jacalyn Smith" dispensation. It meant that if my wife caught me in bed with Ms. Smith, it would be ok.....my wife knew Jacalyn was a gorgeous woman. T wo years ago I petitioned for and received a Faith Hill dispensation, which cost me a George Clooney dispensation. I mean, what are the odds?
  154. @Hapalong Cassidy
    The thing that always struck me as very unusual about The Band was that their main songwriter and most high profile member, Robertson, contributed so little to their actual recorded sound. His guitar playing was unremarkable, and I don't think he ever sang at all - not even background. I've heard that the other members were ticked off that Scorcese's documentary focused so much on him, and I think they had a point.

    Yes. There was an acrimonious split in the end. Essentially, Levon Helm believed his songs were ripped off by Robertson. I’m not an expert but there are numerous accounts out there mostly from one or other side of the dispute.
    As a kid I admit thinking it was Robertson’s band because he was the ‘rock star’ out front with his guitar. Of course it was far from it.

  155. @joeyjoejoe
    Let us never lose sight of the wise words of George Santana:

    "Those who cannot erase the past are condemned to repeat it."

    joey

    Was that on the same album as Black Magic Woman?

    ; D

  156. @iffen
    Levon Helms is also deceased.

    Yes, I initially said Levon and Richard (thinking of R Manuel). Rick Danko’s passing in 1999 slipped my mind. Thanks.

    • Replies: @iffen
    I mis-spelled Levon Helm's name as Helms.

    The family that I knew as a child spelled the name as Helms and not Helm. He was from Arkansas, so it had to be the same lineage. In the South, where birth certificates came late, one could change one's name at will. Family feud and one adds a letter or changes an i to an e and it's, " I'm not related to them; I spell my name differently." I can take you to a cemetery and show you tombstones for two brothers who had a falling out with the father and dropped an "l" out of their name. Not a mis-spelling by the person who placed the maker either, but I can show you some of those as well.
  157. @Konrad
    Talking about 'ambiguity' is disingenuous, Southerners need to accept that they not only lost, but lost fighting for something which is morally reprehensible.

    When slavery is the hill you choose to die on, don't be surprised when your grave gets shat on all the time.

    Southern revisionism is as bad as defending Serbs.

    Your insult to the Serbs is beyond preposterous to this veteran of the Kosovo Campaign. What squadron or other unit were you in there that you’re so knowledgable about what happened? Or were you a civilian in-country? Do please regale us with your firsthand knowledge.

  158. @G Pinfold
    Yes, I initially said Levon and Richard (thinking of R Manuel). Rick Danko's passing in 1999 slipped my mind. Thanks.

    I mis-spelled Levon Helm’s name as Helms.

    The family that I knew as a child spelled the name as Helms and not Helm. He was from Arkansas, so it had to be the same lineage. In the South, where birth certificates came late, one could change one’s name at will. Family feud and one adds a letter or changes an i to an e and it’s, ” I’m not related to them; I spell my name differently.” I can take you to a cemetery and show you tombstones for two brothers who had a falling out with the father and dropped an “l” out of their name. Not a mis-spelling by the person who placed the maker either, but I can show you some of those as well.

  159. @WorkingClass
    It's part of the war on whiteness. 620,000 (white) soldiers died in the war between the states. SJW's should revere both Lincoln and Lee.

    WC, I think you are missing something. SJWs are not concerned about white deaths.

  160. “Was that on the same album as Black Magic Woman?
    ; D”

    yes!

    In retrospect, I probably should have written Carlos Santana, to make it clear that the name was part of the joke-and not a mistake on my part.

    joe

  161. I love Joan’s version, not so much The Band’s. I guess I also like the irony that she was the prototypical SJW, and her biggest song was a memorial to the Confederacy.

    My favorite story about Joan (I think I’ve mentioned it before) is when she had her guitar repaired at the Martin guitar factory in PA in the 60’s. The repairman wrote “Too bad you’re a communist” on the underside of the top where she couldn’t see it. It stayed there for decades.

  162. @bomag

    the Glamor of Losing
     
    In a multitude of ways, America embraces the loser, e.g. the various refugee groups we can't get enough of are losers of various turf battles back home; plus the usual panoply of disadvantaged minorities on which we shower love and attention are viewed as life's losers in need of a boost to close the gap.

    Re: America will not tolerate a loser

    On the contrary, America has always been
    described as a country of second chances.
    E.g., millions of Midwesterners moved to
    California in the 1930s, ’40s, and ’50s to
    improve their lot in life, and indeed
    achieved a level of affluence
    they never dreamed was possible.

    Kevin Starr (who died recently) wrote about it
    in his magnificent multivolume history of
    California. Unfortunately, his book series ends
    in 1964, and then picks up again in the ’90s.
    He completely left out the period from 1965 to
    about 1990. He said he didn’t understand the ’60s or ’70s
    at all, and so he couldn’t write about them. Interestingly,
    he was born in 1940 so he wasn’t much older than the Beatles
    or the Stones, and yet felt he was on the other side of the
    Generation Gap during the Sixties

  163. @Hapalong Cassidy
    The thing that always struck me as very unusual about The Band was that their main songwriter and most high profile member, Robertson, contributed so little to their actual recorded sound. His guitar playing was unremarkable, and I don't think he ever sang at all - not even background. I've heard that the other members were ticked off that Scorcese's documentary focused so much on him, and I think they had a point.

    I’ve heard that the other members were ticked off that Scorcese’s documentary focused so much on him, and I think they had a point.

    That was more Robertson than Scorsese, as I recall reading. Robertson was and is an articulate showboat who tends to hog the limelight in any situation, apparently. The Band was unusual among major rock bands in having three strong lead singers (Helm, Danko and Manuel), but Robertson’s strength lay neither in his singing nor his guitar playing. It lay in his songwriting and unique songs, without which the band wouldn’t have been The Band. So there’s that.

  164. @George Taylor
    I've always loved this video of a Indo-European festival in Oakland back in 1977 ;-) Note that Rebel flag on the stage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxIWDmmqZzY

    I’ve always loved this video of a Indo-European festival in Oakland back in 1977 😉 Note that Rebel flag on the stage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxIWDmmqZzY

    But where are the H-1B programmers and call center workers?

    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Unfortunately for me, they are mostly stinking up the buses on my commute. You want some? You can take as many as you like off my hands, no charge.

    Tankyooveddymooch.
  165. @PiltdownMan

    I’ve always loved this video of a Indo-European festival in Oakland back in 1977 ;-) Note that Rebel flag on the stage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxIWDmmqZzY
     
    But where are the H-1B programmers and call center workers?

    Unfortunately for me, they are mostly stinking up the buses on my commute. You want some? You can take as many as you like off my hands, no charge.

    Tankyooveddymooch.

  166. I think it is more than just a matter of the glamor of losing. Many years ago, Prof. Jeffrey Hart wrote, in an introduction to a book by M. E. Bradford: “It is one of the ironies of history that the defeated side seems to have the deepest insights, perhaps because in defeat it experiences the limits of the world. Christ came from the defeated side, but so did Plato, Dante, the Shakespeare of The Tempest, Milton, Swift, Burke, Henry James, and, of course, Faulkner.” The defeated side does have much to teach us. Think of the impoverished soul who cannot learn from the magnificent Hector, who, despite certain death at the hands of Achilles, marches from the gates of Troy to fulfill his duty. Somewhat like Robert E. Lee, no? He, too, has much to teach us, if we will only listen.

  167. map says:
    @Numinous

    It crosses my mind, in an imprecise way, that the current liberal hatred of Russia, a country and culture that dwells on its historical hardships, is not dissimilar to the liberal hatred of the mourning that the South expresses for a lost cultural past.
     
    Per my understanding, the South was nor mourning a lost cultural past, but rather its failed attempt at preserving and expanding a slave society. After all, if they hadn't tried to secede, they could have remained in the Union, kept their old culture, and periodically blackmailed the North into accepting their demands (pretty much what happened throughout the first half of the 19th century.) But that wasn't enough for them. They fought, they lost, and they should have moved on. Why the rest of the country tolerated their attempts at celebrating rebellion and treason beats me. Now, if the descendants of slaves weren't still residing in the country, perhaps this "mourning" would not be a big deal. But they are!

    I don't see a valid comparison with Russia here. I'm a liberal, and I have no idea why American liberals have decided to wage a jihad against that country in cahoots with neocons. There's no Russian equivalent of mourning for a slave society. It's not even that Putin is celebrating Communism; he's shown no signs of wanting to bring back the Politburo. If Russia seems revanchist in any way when it comes to its neighbors, it's purely a reaction to NATO's overreach. But nothing Russia is doing or has done comes close to the immorality of the Confederacy's ultimate goal: to keep people permanently in bondage.

    You do understand that slavery was simply a cheap labor movement run by the Southern elites for the benefit of the Southern elites?

    You do realize that slavery was not something everyone did in their own homes, right?

    Getting invaded by the north to “free” slaves so they can run rampant all over the South was not a good deal for the average Southerner.

  168. @slumber_j
    I prefer the Band's version in The Last Waltz, and particularly Levon Helm's singing:

    https://youtu.be/jREUrbGGrgM

    It really is a great song.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night_They_Drove_Old_Dixie_Down#Creation_and_recording

    The last time the song was performed by Helm was in The Last Waltz (1976). Helm refused to play the song afterwards. Although it has long been believed that the reason for Helm’s refusal to play the song was a dispute with Robertson over songwriting credits, according to Garth Hudson it was due to Helm’s dislike for Joan Baez’s cover version.[3]

  169. anon • Disclaimer says:

    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/joan-baez-in-hanoi-12-days-under-the-bombs-19730201

    Baez was famously Anti-Vietnam War. Even though it is more nuanced and complex, the ‘woke’ of the time equated North Vietnam as anti colonialist rebels.

    There was no need to put too fine a point on it.

    And, my personal sentiments regarding ‘invade the world’ stem from the Vietnam era. Baez actually went to jail for refusing to pay income taxes because of the Vietnam War.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Joan Baez has funny stories about being Steve Jobs' girlfriend for awhile in the 1980s. Despite her fame, she's not all that rich, but Steve would never buy her anything. Instead, he'd take her shopping at the most expensive stores and tell her he'd found the perfect dress for her. And of course, he being Steve Jobs, it would be the perfect looking dress for her. But then he'd wander off and buy shirts for himself. And be surprised later that she hadn't bought it for herself.

    Also, she got tired of Steve asking her more questions about her old boyfriend Bob Dylan than about herself.

    , @Steve Sailer
    Joan Baez has funny stories about being Steve Jobs' girlfriend for awhile in the 1980s. Despite her fame, she's not all that rich, but Steve would never buy her anything. Instead, he'd take her shopping at the most expensive stores and tell her he'd found the perfect dress for her. And of course, he being Steve Jobs, it would be the perfect looking dress for her. But then he'd wander off and buy shirts for himself. And be surprised later that she hadn't bought it for herself.

    Also, she got tired of Steve asking her more questions about her old boyfriend Bob Dylan than about herself.

  170. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Certainly European Jews under Axis control lost big. Holocaust museums and memorials commemorate them first and foremost. I would think it’s a depressing legacy to promote, although I do see its usefulness as a guilt-trip slave morality weapon to be used against nationalist goys.

    If you're hinting at a broader concern as to who’s ‘winning’ in an ongoing who/whom struggle, don’t take that black pill just yet.

    “The future shall be full of interest.”

    The ones who died did, not so much the rest. As usual.

    I do have faith that good will prevail in the end. The Jews will prevail all along as they ever have.

    The trick is getting them to come around to the good.

  171. fnn says:
    @Patrick Harris
    But the coalition between white Southerners and mostly Catholic immigrants *was* the basis for the Democratic Party until roughly midcentury (the original "coalition of the fringes," if you will). The GOP was always the party of the American "core," (though until the 30's they were also the party of Blacks), it's just that what that means has changed dramatically as a result of shifting demographics and the cultural upheaval of the 60's.

    Probably why Huey Long was assassinated. Long had just formed an alliance with Fr. Coughlin.
    Long had a huge following with poor Southern whites and Fr. Coughlin had an even more impressive following among Northern urban Catholics. And it’s not an exaggeration to say that both men were exceptionally charismatic. A real threat to FDR and the existing D party bosses.

  172. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    I vastly prefer Baez’s rendition. Though she somewhat muffed the lyrics, her voice is emotionally compelling, like she’s actually channelling the war-weary voice of “Virgil Caine.” Also her folk style arrangement is far more authentic to the character, unlike the Band’s arrangement (as posted) which is incongruently modern and jazzy, almost disrespectfully so.

    When Joan’s version gets to the chorus of men and women, there’s a perfect blend of pride and lament that reveals a community—“And all the bells were ringing / And all the people were singing”—which shares a mysterious and ineffable identity.

    By contrast, the Band’s performance is a bunch of dudes showing off their chops and having a good old time, with some incidental Civil War references.

    What’s jazzy about it? It strikes me more as an oom-pah band on the town square, which seems fitting. Listen to the tuba.

    • Replies: @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Listen to the tuba.
     
    I can’t hate on the tuba.

    I wonder how a “Dixie” cover by old school My Morning Jacket would sound. If it turned out as howling and apocalyptic as this track, hell yeah. Not sure how Jim James would handle the choral refrain, maybe leave it to the end.

  173. @George Taylor
    I've always loved this video of a Indo-European festival in Oakland back in 1977 ;-) Note that Rebel flag on the stage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxIWDmmqZzY

    And Ronnie Van Zant wearing a Neil Young t-shirt “Tonights The Night”.

  174. @Buffalo Joe
    Seamus, the Vietnam Memorial honors those who died in the conflict/war. "Tora, Tora, 'Tora'" is a movie about the Japanese attack, successful I might add, on the Pacific Naval base at Pearl Harbor. Hollywood made that movie, not the Japanese, but I don't think it commemorates the defeat, but rather portrays the event. Not trying to split hairs.

    “Tora, Tora, ‘Tora’” is a movie about the Japanese attack, successful I might add, on the Pacific Naval base at Pearl Harbor. Hollywood made that movie, not the Japanese, but I don’t think it commemorates the defeat, but rather portrays the event.

    Actually, it was a joint Japanese-American production. But as you say, the movie strove primarily to just portray the event (which is one of the reasons it was a good movie).

    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
    Good point. But you could say the same of the Confederate monuments as well: that they honor the fallen, rather than commemorate a defeat. I'm sure that's what people from the South would say. I was just wondering why Steve was couching the issue in the language of 'defeat'.
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Mr. Anon, thank you . I was not aware that this was a collaborative work by Hollywood and the Japanese.
  175. @anon
    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/joan-baez-in-hanoi-12-days-under-the-bombs-19730201

    Baez was famously Anti-Vietnam War. Even though it is more nuanced and complex, the 'woke' of the time equated North Vietnam as anti colonialist rebels.

    There was no need to put too fine a point on it.

    And, my personal sentiments regarding 'invade the world' stem from the Vietnam era. Baez actually went to jail for refusing to pay income taxes because of the Vietnam War.

    Joan Baez has funny stories about being Steve Jobs’ girlfriend for awhile in the 1980s. Despite her fame, she’s not all that rich, but Steve would never buy her anything. Instead, he’d take her shopping at the most expensive stores and tell her he’d found the perfect dress for her. And of course, he being Steve Jobs, it would be the perfect looking dress for her. But then he’d wander off and buy shirts for himself. And be surprised later that she hadn’t bought it for herself.

    Also, she got tired of Steve asking her more questions about her old boyfriend Bob Dylan than about herself.

  176. @anon
    http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/joan-baez-in-hanoi-12-days-under-the-bombs-19730201

    Baez was famously Anti-Vietnam War. Even though it is more nuanced and complex, the 'woke' of the time equated North Vietnam as anti colonialist rebels.

    There was no need to put too fine a point on it.

    And, my personal sentiments regarding 'invade the world' stem from the Vietnam era. Baez actually went to jail for refusing to pay income taxes because of the Vietnam War.

    Joan Baez has funny stories about being Steve Jobs’ girlfriend for awhile in the 1980s. Despite her fame, she’s not all that rich, but Steve would never buy her anything. Instead, he’d take her shopping at the most expensive stores and tell her he’d found the perfect dress for her. And of course, he being Steve Jobs, it would be the perfect looking dress for her. But then he’d wander off and buy shirts for himself. And be surprised later that she hadn’t bought it for herself.

    Also, she got tired of Steve asking her more questions about her old boyfriend Bob Dylan than about herself.

  177. @Konrad
    Talking about 'ambiguity' is disingenuous, Southerners need to accept that they not only lost, but lost fighting for something which is morally reprehensible.

    When slavery is the hill you choose to die on, don't be surprised when your grave gets shat on all the time.

    Southern revisionism is as bad as defending Serbs.

    Talking about ‘ambiguity’ is disingenuous, Southerners need to accept that they not only lost, but lost fighting for something which is morally reprehensible.

    The North won fighting for something reprehensible – the desire of an empire to deny self-determination to a minority.

    And don’t delude yourself that most of the North, including and especially the war-leaders, gave a solitary damn about the blacks.

  178. @Jake
    I don't think the core behind the Lincoln presidency and the Union war effort and Reconstruction ever could acknowledge ambiguity, much less the fact that perhaps they acted in ways less than unquestionable. The 'truce' came about because they realized that all the recent Catholic immigrants meant that they required allies against that democratic threat. So they magnanimously pretended to forget and have all good will so that the Protestant South would not feel compelled to rush into alliance with the Catholic immigrants.

    Once the Yankee WASP Elites cemented their alliance with Jews and managed to bribe a growing number of rich Catholics to beg to be admitted to their club, they no longer needed the conservative South.

    And then it was time to re-start the war against white Southerners and all things culturally Southern.

    “I don’t think the core behind the Lincoln presidency and the Union war effort and Reconstruction ever could acknowledge ambiguity . . .”

    Maybe not the Radical Republicans, but Lincoln certainly could and did. Somewhere he remarks (can’t remember where exactly) that if the people of the North had been born into the same situation as the people of the South, they would have felt the same way about slavery. As probably would any people whose whole system of property was tied up in it. And then too Dixie was one of Lincoln’s favorite tunes.

  179. @Romanian
    Lol, maybe it's a vicious circle. But fatalism is different from suicide, and emphasizes a sort of serenity and stoic demeanor that is conducive to putting up with life, rather than ending it. Of course, it has its downsides when in excess, like apathy and complacency, which are also present in the political culture. Recently, a report said that both Bulgaria and Serbia have more kilometers of highway than Romania, despite having each a third of the territory, a third of the population and a lower GDP/capita (significantly lower for Serbia). The general consensus is that the bureaucracies are indolent and lazy, not willing to look for solutions when failure stares them in the face.

    I am mulling over the idea that maybe your taciturn Mexicans also have much lower suicide rates. Romania has one of the lowest in the region, according to the WHO. It's no. 103 and the Hungarians, who really are stereotyped as being likely to off themselves out of ennui or existential dread, are at no. 25. Japan is 26. Poland is 15. Almost all of the countries in the region rank lower than Romania, except for Greece, Montenegro and Albania. Wicked people might suggest that suicidal depression is correlated with IQ :)) The differences are even more important when looking at rates for men and women, separately, rather than the average. Women still kill themselves at much lower rates than men, but a more suicidal country has a larger multiple of women committing suicide than men compared to a less suicidal one. Hungarian men kill themselves at 50% higher rates than Romanian men, while the women kill themselves at almost 175% higher rates. Feminism?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate

    Recently, a report said that both Bulgaria and Serbia have more kilometers of highway than Romania, despite having each a third of the territory, a third of the population and a lower GDP/capita (significantly lower for Serbia).

    Fewer roads = fewer gypsies in Bucharest?

  180. The reason the Confederate Statues are coming down is the same reason that Jeremy Corbyn is most likely the next PM and will create within a year the Islamic Republic of Britain. White women want it. For reasons well understood, White women have been completely pozzed. This is due to the pill, condom, anonymous urban living, and rising female income that have destroyed the bedrock of Western civilization — the nuclear monogamous family.

    Hence, the massive unpopularity of the White Male Confederate past by the coalition of the majority — White women, non-Whites, various “feminist” SJW White dudes with low T, etc. That this group is the majority is no mark of righteousness, a majority of Germans backed Hitler well into the War; as did Japanese both the Emperor and Tojo. Despite it being abundantly stupid for both nations with the putative gains never worth the cost much less the risk. The majority of the Puritans solidly backed witch-hanging as well.

    The domination displays of Islamic Terrorism no doubt made White women cast their votes for Corbyn. The men of Britain knowing nothing other than appeasement of their women who in turn desperately wish to be dominated by foreign men. [See Heartiste’s take on how the Rapefugee racked is largely run by sex-crazed spinsters and crazy cat ladies seeking rent boys. The equivalent of dudes rushing to Thailand to boff underage hookers, save the women wreck their countries to satisfy their sex lives.]

    This is basically the ex-Wife trashing her hubby’s property, in a fit of rage he was not the Alpha male she was promised, promised! After all, who lives in NOLA and other cities like it? Single White women, various non-Whites, and a few SJW manlets of low T.

  181. @BB753
    Would you say Cromwell won posthumously, a number of centuries after his defeat (actually after his son's)?

    Only a few decades after his defeat; 1688 or 1714 depending on how you’re counting. But nowadays he’s a Jefferson or Woodrow Wilson type figure; part of the Revolution, but it has eaten its own many times over since his death. Transport him to modern times and he’d make Richard Spencer look like Rachel Maddow.

    • Agree: BB753
  182. @BB753
    Because the humane solution to the aggression of Croatia, on one hand, and Bosnian Muslims in Bosnia and Albanians in Kossovo, on the other, against Serbs, was to bomb the hell out of them and side with their enemies.

    That was certainly not America’s finest moment, especially given the events of a few years later, but on the other hand it was (insufficient) karma for the Serbs’ behavior of earlier in the century, when they encountered their grandfather Western Civilization standing at the end of the roof, balanced on one leg and babbling incoherently, and, thinking of some imagined slight from him earlier that day, gave him a good hard shove over the edge.

  183. @BB753
    Would you say Cromwell won posthumously, a number of centuries after his defeat (actually after his son's)?

    Would you say Cromwell won posthumously, a number of centuries after his defeat (actually after his son’s)?

    In many ways Cromwell and his ilk won. Not in a religious sense but in an economic sense. The English monarchy was destroyed, never to be restored. The so-called Restoration was a sham. The rich were left in complete control and they’ve been in control ever since. English history in the 17th century represents a successful revolt of the rich against the poor and middling classes.

    • Agree: Hibernian
  184. This is a great point, and I suspect it explains a lot of the enthusiasm for Trump. Ie, that we’re probably going to lose anyway so we may as well make some kind of glorious last stand.

    Winning is a lot slower and a lot more complicated. Instead of standing loyal for the GOP like you’re supposed to, a lot of Americans (including the commentariat here) like to go on about cuck this, GOPe that, RINO that other thing.

    Americans have, if they choose, the historic bequest to be the winners of history. I just wish they’d act like it.

  185. CCZ says:
    @San Fernando Curt
    "But Americans are not terribly appreciative anymore of ambiguity or ambivalence.'

    We'd better not be. And we know it. History's human side, with its ambiguity and ambivalence, is racist. History is now presented as straight-up good guy / bad guy. This helps keep things clear for low IQ, poor impulse control, easily provoked citizens of the future.

    I don't think at this point we need specify how the good guys and the bad guys will be cast.

    Lots of ambiguity and ambivalence in the words of the elderly ex-slaves interviewed in the 1930s by the WPA oral history project and available:

    http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/search/?query=slave+narratives+a+folk+history

    The words from, rather than the words about, these survivors of slavery and emancipation do reveal “history’s human side” and tell a story with many shades of gray.

    • Replies: @San Fernando Curt
    Given decades of rigorous overexposure, we can recite most of them by heart - gray areas and all. And we can count on bleeding hearts like you to fill in - with sometimes astonishing embellishment - the rest
  186. @PiltdownMan
    It crosses my mind, in an imprecise way, that the current liberal hatred of Russia, a country and culture that dwells on its historical hardships, is not dissimilar to the liberal hatred of the mourning that the South expresses for a lost cultural past. They hate poetic loserdom or, as Steve more perceptively and succinctly puts it, ambivalence and ambiguity.

    “They hate poetic loserdom or, as Steve more perceptively and succinctly puts it, ambivalence and ambiguity.”

    No no. It’s not that _they_ hate ambiguity, it’s _we_ that hate it. We’d rather go down in flames holding on to Donald Trump instead of actually trying to make a go of it in reality.

  187. @Harry Baldwin
    True, and interesting because you'd think the sequence would be the opposite--"time heals all wounds," but not when there's axes to be ground. In the early 1960s, at the centennial of the Civil War, there was a craze for it among my childhood peers, who collected Civil War cards, which were sold like baseball cards, in packets with gum. Confederates were more glamorous than Yankees. You could buy imitation rebel caps and some kids wore them to school.

    Something of the same happened with World War II (European Theater), where in the 1960s it was all right to joke about stupid Nazis in "Hogan's Heroes" and The Producers. No humor to be mined in that vein anymore.

    “Something of the same happened with World War II (European Theater), where in the 1960s it was all right to joke about stupid Nazis in “Hogan’s Heroes” and The Producers. No humor to be mined in that vein anymore.”

    I’m not so sure about that. That Hitler parody video that you can caption , from “Downfall” sure seems popular. I’ve even seen on several Yeshiva lists already.

  188. @Harry Baldwin
    True, and interesting because you'd think the sequence would be the opposite--"time heals all wounds," but not when there's axes to be ground. In the early 1960s, at the centennial of the Civil War, there was a craze for it among my childhood peers, who collected Civil War cards, which were sold like baseball cards, in packets with gum. Confederates were more glamorous than Yankees. You could buy imitation rebel caps and some kids wore them to school.

    Something of the same happened with World War II (European Theater), where in the 1960s it was all right to joke about stupid Nazis in "Hogan's Heroes" and The Producers. No humor to be mined in that vein anymore.

    Strange as it seems now, American Civil War bubblegum cards were also really popular with UK kids in the early 1960s. Even at the time they were pretty bloodthirsty, but nine year old boys like that.

    http://www.oldbubblegumcards.com/1960s/Civil-War-News/

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Charlie Watts famously collected (American) Civil War memorabilia in the 60s.
  189. @Daniel Chieh
    OT:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-08/major-escalation-syrian-drone-attacks-us-alliance-forces

    One day after a pro-Assad military alliance threatened to strike US forces in Syria in retaliation for a US bombing of an Iran-backed militia operating in an allegedly "no-go zone" near a US garrison in southern Syria, near the town of At Tanf, the Syrians allegedly followed through on their promise, and according to Reuters, a pro-Syrian regime armed drone attacked U.S.-led coalition forces in Syria, for which it was promptly shot down in what the Pentagon dubbed "a major escalation of tensions between Washington and troops supporting Damascus."
     
    We have boots on the ground in Syria?

    “We have boots on the ground in Syria?”

    Obama sent special forces – IIRC 500 or more. I know he said he wouldn’t. Still there AFAIK.

  190. Levy Yulee … was locked up by the victorious Union for 9 months, while Benjamin escaped punishment by slipping away to Britain

    Invading Yankees put Jews in prison camps and others expelled, sounds like a foreshadowing of events in Poland nearly 74 years later.

    Then there’s Grant’s infamous General Order No. 11:

    The Jews, as a class violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department and also department orders, are hereby expelled …

    Sherman burned Charleston, which had one of America’s oldest Jewish communities. In 1902 Charleston had fewer Jews than it had in 1816.

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    The Union generals were harsh all across South Carolina because that is where the rebellion began. All the wealthy got it in the neck, not just the Jews. Get a grip.
  191. @Jim Don Bob
    I dislike most of what Baez did, because she was so preachy.

    But her version of Diamonds and Rust is beautiful.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGMHSbcd_qI

    Baez was the best female folksinger America ever produced, arguably challengable only if one considers Emmylou Harris a folksinger. And either way it’s a close run.

  192. @Anonymous Nephew
    Strange as it seems now, American Civil War bubblegum cards were also really popular with UK kids in the early 1960s. Even at the time they were pretty bloodthirsty, but nine year old boys like that.

    http://www.oldbubblegumcards.com/1960s/Civil-War-News/

    Charlie Watts famously collected (American) Civil War memorabilia in the 60s.

  193. @slumber_j
    What's jazzy about it? It strikes me more as an oom-pah band on the town square, which seems fitting. Listen to the tuba.

    Listen to the tuba.

    I can’t hate on the tuba.

    I wonder how a “Dixie” cover by old school My Morning Jacket would sound. If it turned out as howling and apocalyptic as this track, hell yeah. Not sure how Jim James would handle the choral refrain, maybe leave it to the end.

    • Replies: @slumber_j
    Fair enough. Anyway, I certainly understand that people may prefer Joan Baez's version--she does have a lovely voice.
  194. @Mr. Anon

    “Tora, Tora, ‘Tora’” is a movie about the Japanese attack, successful I might add, on the Pacific Naval base at Pearl Harbor. Hollywood made that movie, not the Japanese, but I don’t think it commemorates the defeat, but rather portrays the event.
     
    Actually, it was a joint Japanese-American production. But as you say, the movie strove primarily to just portray the event (which is one of the reasons it was a good movie).

    Good point. But you could say the same of the Confederate monuments as well: that they honor the fallen, rather than commemorate a defeat. I’m sure that’s what people from the South would say. I was just wondering why Steve was couching the issue in the language of ‘defeat’.

  195. @Jake
    So the original coalition of the fringes featured the people of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, James Madison, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson.

    Just rattling that around for a while in your head and then saying it aloud should help. Without the fringe of the white South, there never could have been any America.

    The Republican Party was a revolutionary party. That's the reason all those Liberal Northern Protestants supported it, as did all the Liberal Northern journalists and college professors. .That's the reason the German 1848ers (they of the pro-communist revolution that failed) all became good Republicans, good Lincoln men, pro-Reconstruction folks.

    There never was a one core of America. What amounted to the core of New England, NY, and Philadelphia was genteelly Liberal. And that core was the intellectual and spiritual base of the original Republican Party. Add to that the German 48ers, and the Know-Nothings who delighted in hating virtually all whites who were neither British nor German Protestants, and you have the Party of Lincoln and Grant.

    You’re badly misunderstanding me. Of course the South was essential to the building of America. But after the Civil War it (especially the Deep South) spent the better part of a century much, much poorer than the North or West; regional differences are much smaller by comparison today. The South remained overwhelminhly rural until after WW2 and participated less in many developments in the mainstream of national life, a bit like the way Ireland fit into the U.K.

    I’m a proud Alabamian, by the way.

  196. @Bill

    The GOP was always the party of the American “core,”
     
    Huh? How do Southern Whites get written out of the American core?

    The “core” here isn’t solely ethnic. Of course Southerners were essential in building America. But the postbellum South was much, much, poorer than the rest of the country, overwhelmingly rural, and accordingly insular.

    Air conditioning made a big difference.

  197. @dearieme
    There's a statue of Ollie Cromwell in Westminster, which is remarkable really given the way he treated Parliament and King.

    In fact there are four public statues to Oliver Cromwell in England, none older than the reign of Queen Victoria, the first monarch to definitively withdraw from politics. Under her predecessors, any subscriber to a Cromwell statue would have found his social and professional advancement impeded. At the Restoration, Cromwell’s corpse had been disinterred and hanged on the gallows at Tyburn, after which the head was cut off and exhibited on a spike outside Parliament.

    So in England, with the passage of time, ferocity gave way to magnanimity. America seems to be going in the opposite direction.

  198. @Charles Pewitt
    Right out of the gate Maud Adams brings to mind a Bond movie where she is naked in bed lying on her stomach looking back intertwined with white sheets. Swedish sweetheart.

    Maud Adams is beautiful.

    Talking about beautiful women is just like talking about beautiful trees or beautiful architecture or any beautiful art. It doesn't make one a bad person to do so, I think.

    I’m guessing, Charles, that the reason Buffalo Joe did not have an image of any kind of beautiful woman is that there is this Maude Adams, that I’d also never heard of, and then there’s Maude!

    197o’s Norman Lear TV – Maude was a nasty feminist character (though still funny) in the show that was a spin-off of All in the Family. Maude was some cousin or something of Archie Bunker, but you only watched the show to see the “big blue eyes” of her daughter. We still had a black&white TV then.

    She did absolutely NOT lay on the bed on her stomach intertwined in the sheets, or I would probably be reading your comment in braille.

    • Replies: @Guest42
    Joan Baez butchered this song, as she did with so many others. It's painful to listen to her soulless screeching as she drones her way through this ballad. I blame Alan Lomax.

    She had many of the lyrics wrong because they were transcribed incorrectly from a live recording by The Band. "Til' so much Calvary came . . ." WTF?
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Achmed, Exactly.....Maude and Maud Adams, polar opposites.
    , @Jim Don Bob
    The only thing good about the TV show Maude was Adrienne Barbeau, but even she could not entice me to watch this femiNazi screed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgVbj-ARHKY
  199. @Achmed E. Newman
    I'm guessing, Charles, that the reason Buffalo Joe did not have an image of any kind of beautiful woman is that there is this Maude Adams, that I'd also never heard of, and then there's Maude!

    197o's Norman Lear TV - Maude was a nasty feminist character (though still funny) in the show that was a spin-off of All in the Family. Maude was some cousin or something of Archie Bunker, but you only watched the show to see the "big blue eyes" of her daughter. We still had a black&white TV then.

    She did absolutely NOT lay on the bed on her stomach intertwined in the sheets, or I would probably be reading your comment in braille.

    Joan Baez butchered this song, as she did with so many others. It’s painful to listen to her soulless screeching as she drones her way through this ballad. I blame Alan Lomax.

    She had many of the lyrics wrong because they were transcribed incorrectly from a live recording by The Band. “Til’ so much Calvary came . . .” WTF?

    • Agree: PiltdownMan
    • Replies: @oh its just me too
    I like the Joan Baez version and I have to admit she was really cute when she was younger...
    But what i REALLy like is she's such a hard lefty and this is practically her signature song... how long until the thought police come for her?
  200. @Charles Pewitt
    Right out of the gate Maud Adams brings to mind a Bond movie where she is naked in bed lying on her stomach looking back intertwined with white sheets. Swedish sweetheart.

    Maud Adams is beautiful.

    Talking about beautiful women is just like talking about beautiful trees or beautiful architecture or any beautiful art. It doesn't make one a bad person to do so, I think.

    Charles, My wife is a very attractive woman, but years ago she gave me a “Jacalyn Smith” dispensation. It meant that if my wife caught me in bed with Ms. Smith, it would be ok…..my wife knew Jacalyn was a gorgeous woman. T wo years ago I petitioned for and received a Faith Hill dispensation, which cost me a George Clooney dispensation. I mean, what are the odds?

    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    You have a keeper, my friend.
    , @Harry Baldwin
    Speaking of odds. . . I remember a Jay Leno joke when it was reported that John F Kennedy Jr had had an affair with Madonna. Jay said, "Well, statistically, it was inevitable."
  201. @Achmed E. Newman
    I'm guessing, Charles, that the reason Buffalo Joe did not have an image of any kind of beautiful woman is that there is this Maude Adams, that I'd also never heard of, and then there's Maude!

    197o's Norman Lear TV - Maude was a nasty feminist character (though still funny) in the show that was a spin-off of All in the Family. Maude was some cousin or something of Archie Bunker, but you only watched the show to see the "big blue eyes" of her daughter. We still had a black&white TV then.

    She did absolutely NOT lay on the bed on her stomach intertwined in the sheets, or I would probably be reading your comment in braille.

    Achmed, Exactly…..Maude and Maud Adams, polar opposites.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Achmed, Exactly…..Maude and Maud Adams, polar opposites.
     
    Her TV hubby Bill Macy and William H Macy also have little in common. Both are still alive, at 95 and 67 repectively, but it was the younger one who got the celebrity death hoax treatment. Probably because he's still a celebrity.

    Bill belongs in the "He's still alive?!" category, along with President Tyler's grandsons, Kirk Douglas, Carl Reiner, Carol Channing, Olivia de Havilland, Vera Lynn, Baby Peggy, Renée Simonot, Herman Wouk, Beverly Cleary, Bernard Lewis, Eric Bentley, William Coors, I.M. Pei, and, until this year, David Rockefeller and Prof Irwin Corey.

    Maud Adams I can add to my growing list of women who made it big with their ex-husbands surnames-- Joni Mitchell, Susan Sarandon, Pat Benatar, Barbara Billingsley, Martha Stewart, and Alice Faye Eichelberger if you count community property windfalls as "celebrity".
  202. @Mr. Anon

    “Tora, Tora, ‘Tora’” is a movie about the Japanese attack, successful I might add, on the Pacific Naval base at Pearl Harbor. Hollywood made that movie, not the Japanese, but I don’t think it commemorates the defeat, but rather portrays the event.
     
    Actually, it was a joint Japanese-American production. But as you say, the movie strove primarily to just portray the event (which is one of the reasons it was a good movie).

    Mr. Anon, thank you . I was not aware that this was a collaborative work by Hollywood and the Japanese.

  203. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    Listen to the tuba.
     
    I can’t hate on the tuba.

    I wonder how a “Dixie” cover by old school My Morning Jacket would sound. If it turned out as howling and apocalyptic as this track, hell yeah. Not sure how Jim James would handle the choral refrain, maybe leave it to the end.

    Fair enough. Anyway, I certainly understand that people may prefer Joan Baez’s version–she does have a lovely voice.

  204. @Hippopotamusdrome


    Levy Yulee ... was locked up by the victorious Union for 9 months, while Benjamin escaped punishment by slipping away to Britain

     

    Invading Yankees put Jews in prison camps and others expelled, sounds like a foreshadowing of events in Poland nearly 74 years later.

    Then there's Grant's infamous General Order No. 11:


    The Jews, as a class violating every regulation of trade established by the Treasury Department and also department orders, are hereby expelled ...

     

    Sherman burned Charleston, which had one of America's oldest Jewish communities. In 1902 Charleston had fewer Jews than it had in 1816.

    The Union generals were harsh all across South Carolina because that is where the rebellion began. All the wealthy got it in the neck, not just the Jews. Get a grip.

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome


    All the wealthy got it in the neck, not just the Jews.

     

    Civil War revisionism may be beyond the scope of this forum, so I won't comment.
  205. @Buffalo Joe
    Charles, My wife is a very attractive woman, but years ago she gave me a "Jacalyn Smith" dispensation. It meant that if my wife caught me in bed with Ms. Smith, it would be ok.....my wife knew Jacalyn was a gorgeous woman. T wo years ago I petitioned for and received a Faith Hill dispensation, which cost me a George Clooney dispensation. I mean, what are the odds?

    You have a keeper, my friend.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  206. @Achmed E. Newman
    I'm guessing, Charles, that the reason Buffalo Joe did not have an image of any kind of beautiful woman is that there is this Maude Adams, that I'd also never heard of, and then there's Maude!

    197o's Norman Lear TV - Maude was a nasty feminist character (though still funny) in the show that was a spin-off of All in the Family. Maude was some cousin or something of Archie Bunker, but you only watched the show to see the "big blue eyes" of her daughter. We still had a black&white TV then.

    She did absolutely NOT lay on the bed on her stomach intertwined in the sheets, or I would probably be reading your comment in braille.

    The only thing good about the TV show Maude was Adrienne Barbeau, but even she could not entice me to watch this femiNazi screed.

  207. @MarcB.
    The South fought because they were attacked, and put up a valiant fight despite incredible odds. They were not fighting for 5% who owned slaves, or even against the Morill Tariff. They were protecting the land that they and their forebears settled in the face of hostilities from Indians and in a variety of unforgiving landscapes.

    Southerners honor those sacrifices, not the ultimate result in the win/loss column. They also resent what the removal of statues represents, and fear the slippery slope that is sure to follow. Statues are deleted/defaced after conquest, and they instinctively understand that the statues are being removed in concert with their own replacement.

    Superb comments. And aren’t you being overly charitable to the defamers of the South by estimating that five percent were slaveowners? I’ll bet it was not even one percent of white people in the south who “owned” slaves.

    Very few people directly participated in that sick institution — not counting the Africans who sold their vanquished enemies into New World slavery, of course. Nor the “northerners” who bought and sold the slaves along with those supposedly uniquely evil southerners.

  208. @Buffalo Joe
    Charles, My wife is a very attractive woman, but years ago she gave me a "Jacalyn Smith" dispensation. It meant that if my wife caught me in bed with Ms. Smith, it would be ok.....my wife knew Jacalyn was a gorgeous woman. T wo years ago I petitioned for and received a Faith Hill dispensation, which cost me a George Clooney dispensation. I mean, what are the odds?

    Speaking of odds. . . I remember a Jay Leno joke when it was reported that John F Kennedy Jr had had an affair with Madonna. Jay said, “Well, statistically, it was inevitable.”

  209. @Father O'Hara
    Baez was a hero to the left yet she had no problem doing this song. It probably financed her retirement.
    Can you see Ariana Grande doing this?

    Joan Baez was critical of the Vietnamese communists when boat people began fleeing the nation. She got a lot of flack from fellow leftists for that. To me it indicated she had some integrity.

    • Replies: @Whoever
    Baez is sort of a puzzle when it comes to Viet Nam. A 1979 New York Times article reports that she:
    "said that torture and brutal conditions in prison camps and so‐called 're‐education centers' had been documented by newspapers and Amnesty International, the London‐based human rights group.
    In an open letter to the Vietnamese Government that will appear in newspapers tomorrow, Miss Baez and more than 80 co‐signers said: 'Instead of bringing hope and reconciliation to war‐torn Vietnam, your government has created a painful nightmare that overshadows significant progress achieved in many areas of Vietnamese society.'”

    David Horowitz, in The Black Book of the American Left, says that Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda, immediately after the open letter appeared, attacked Baez as a tool of the CIA, and Cora Weiss, "who had collaborated with the [North Vietnamese] regime in its torture of American POWs," took out an ad in the New York Times praising the communists "for their moderation in administering the peace."
    But Horowitz also says about Baez, "Years later, on one of the anniversaries of the fall of Saigon, I appeared with her on a television show discussing the events. She dismissed my views with hostility, saying, 'I don't trust people with second thoughts.' My response -- which I did not get a chance to express on camera -- was: 'I don't trust people without them.'"
  210. She got a lot of flack from fellow leftists for that.

    Flack vs. flak

    Flak was their emission, flack their essence. A lot of the old lefties were indeed flacks– Saul Alinsky was essentially a marketing maven who opted for an avenue other than Madison. Abby Hoffman, Huey Newton, etc., all commercial street theater.

    • Agree: Harry Baldwin
  211. @Buffalo Joe
    Achmed, Exactly.....Maude and Maud Adams, polar opposites.

    Achmed, Exactly…..Maude and Maud Adams, polar opposites.

    Her TV hubby Bill Macy and William H Macy also have little in common. Both are still alive, at 95 and 67 repectively, but it was the younger one who got the celebrity death hoax treatment. Probably because he’s still a celebrity.

    Bill belongs in the “He’s still alive?!” category, along with President Tyler’s grandsons, Kirk Douglas, Carl Reiner, Carol Channing, Olivia de Havilland, Vera Lynn, Baby Peggy, Renée Simonot, Herman Wouk, Beverly Cleary, Bernard Lewis, Eric Bentley, William Coors, I.M. Pei, and, until this year, David Rockefeller and Prof Irwin Corey.

    Maud Adams I can add to my growing list of women who made it big with their ex-husbands surnames– Joni Mitchell, Susan Sarandon, Pat Benatar, Barbara Billingsley, Martha Stewart, and Alice Faye Eichelberger if you count community property windfalls as “celebrity”.

  212. @Harry Baldwin
    Joan Baez was critical of the Vietnamese communists when boat people began fleeing the nation. She got a lot of flack from fellow leftists for that. To me it indicated she had some integrity.

    Baez is sort of a puzzle when it comes to Viet Nam. A 1979 New York Times article reports that she:
    “said that torture and brutal conditions in prison camps and so‐called ‘re‐education centers’ had been documented by newspapers and Amnesty International, the London‐based human rights group.
    In an open letter to the Vietnamese Government that will appear in newspapers tomorrow, Miss Baez and more than 80 co‐signers said: ‘Instead of bringing hope and reconciliation to war‐torn Vietnam, your government has created a painful nightmare that overshadows significant progress achieved in many areas of Vietnamese society.’”

    David Horowitz, in The Black Book of the American Left, says that Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda, immediately after the open letter appeared, attacked Baez as a tool of the CIA, and Cora Weiss, “who had collaborated with the [North Vietnamese] regime in its torture of American POWs,” took out an ad in the New York Times praising the communists “for their moderation in administering the peace.”
    But Horowitz also says about Baez, “Years later, on one of the anniversaries of the fall of Saigon, I appeared with her on a television show discussing the events. She dismissed my views with hostility, saying, ‘I don’t trust people with second thoughts.’ My response — which I did not get a chance to express on camera — was: ‘I don’t trust people without them.’”

  213. @Jim Don Bob
    The Union generals were harsh all across South Carolina because that is where the rebellion began. All the wealthy got it in the neck, not just the Jews. Get a grip.

    All the wealthy got it in the neck, not just the Jews.

    Civil War revisionism may be beyond the scope of this forum, so I won’t comment.

  214. Reg, but she is beautiful, right?

  215. @iffen
    War of Northern Aggression

    Give us a f***ing break!

    I think we should celebrate all Confederate holidays, including R. E. Lee's horse's birthday. Do you know what we should do on those holidays. We should exhume the body of a different fire-eater every year and hang the SOB, then re-bury him. (with proper honors of course)

    I think we should celebrate all Confederate holidays, including R. E. Lee’s horse’s birthday.

    Good idea: Traveler was a hero in his own right.

  216. @Tiny Duck
    Oh and it looks like Trump will be impeached

    This Comey hearing is the nail in the coffin

    Ask not for who the bell tolls. It tolls for Leonard Pitts.

  217. @Guest42
    Joan Baez butchered this song, as she did with so many others. It's painful to listen to her soulless screeching as she drones her way through this ballad. I blame Alan Lomax.

    She had many of the lyrics wrong because they were transcribed incorrectly from a live recording by The Band. "Til' so much Calvary came . . ." WTF?

    I like the Joan Baez version and I have to admit she was really cute when she was younger…
    But what i REALLy like is she’s such a hard lefty and this is practically her signature song… how long until the thought police come for her?

  218. @Tiny Duck
    Man, I know you guys hate People of Color but damn

    Why would ANYONE tolerate the "memory" of traitors and racists if not evil themselves?

    This is why demographic change is a NECESSITY

    Hey… knock a self a pro, Slick! That gray matter backlot perform us DOWN, I take TCB-in’, man!

    -Leonard Pitts

  219. @CCZ
    Lots of ambiguity and ambivalence in the words of the elderly ex-slaves interviewed in the 1930s by the WPA oral history project and available:

    http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/search/?query=slave+narratives+a+folk+history

    The words from, rather than the words about, these survivors of slavery and emancipation do reveal "history's human side" and tell a story with many shades of gray.

    Given decades of rigorous overexposure, we can recite most of them by heart – gray areas and all. And we can count on bleeding hearts like you to fill in – with sometimes astonishing embellishment – the rest

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