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Coalition of the Fringes News: Rotherham Pakistanis Denounce New Immigrant Gypsies
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As Dan Quayle said, “Diversity is our strength. From The Guardian:

‘A time bomb’: how social tensions are rising in a corner of northern England

Roma and British Pakistani communities are increasingly divided over problems of crime, litter and antisocial behaviour

Helen Pidd, Sat 3 Nov 2018 11.00 EDT

It was an unusually heavy response to a fight in a school canteen: a police helicopter, police dog and 15 police vehicles all rushed to Fir Vale Academy in Page Hall, Sheffield, one Tuesday in late September.

… the fight had begun when a Roma girl pulled off the headscarf of a Muslim classmate. …

Five years ago, David Blunkett, serving his final years as an MP, warned that Page Hall, a multicultural district of Sheffield which had become one of the city’s most deprived areas after the decline of the steel industry, was a “boiling pot” waiting to spill over. Describing tensions between the more established Pakistani community and an influx of Slovakian Roma people

Roma = Gypsy

, whom he said needed to make more of an effort to fit in, he told BBC Radio Sheffield: “We have to change the behaviour and the culture of the incoming community, the Roma community, because there’s going to be an explosion otherwise. We all know that.”

Good luck with that. My impression is that Gypsies consider acting like Gypsies to be a blast. It’s what they do.

Though they wouldn’t say so publicly, officials from communities all over the country with a sudden high concentration of Roma residents recognised the tensions Blunkett described. In Rotherham, Doncaster, Derby, Peterborough, Glasgow and Luton, the local authorities continue to grapple with the challenges brought by their new Roma residents since EU expansion into eastern Europe in the 2000s. Many fear that Brexit will result in the loss of funding from the EU through the European Social Fund, undoing any progress that has been made.

The last, most scientific, attempt at estimating the UK’s Roma population, by Salford University in 2013, put it at just under 200,000. That has almost certainly ballooned. As EU citizens, mostly from Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Poland, Hungary and Romania, Roma do not have to register on arrival. …

Six miles north-east of Page Hall is Eastwood, a suburb of Rotherham.

Where have we heard that name before?

Ever since she was elected to represent the town in 2012, Sarah Champion MP has been receiving complaints about litter, fly-tipping and antisocial behaviour, blamed on Roma arrivals. For a long time, the complaints came from white British and British Pakistani people who had bought their homes before EU enlargement, said the Labour MP. “There are people who put all their savings into their homes and find how they are worth less than they paid for them. They are stuck. They can’t leave the area. It’s a nightmare,” she said. A two-bed terrace on Milton Road, one of the most fly-tipped streets, sold in 2015 for £38,000. Four years previously it had been bought for £59,950.

Most recently, postal workers said they were so frightened delivering in Eastwood after being mugged for their parcels that they no longer went out alone. “They are terrified because of the level of intimidation,’” said Champion. She went out on a round with two postal workers: “If I wasn’t with two post people, I would have been running away. I was really shocked how bad it was.”

But as their English improves, the Roma want to defend themselves. Recently, Champion went to a meeting of about 40 Eastwood Roma residents, who said they felt intimidated and victimised in their own homes, let alone the streets. “They talked of bullying and degradation, and they were saying that it was the Pakistanis who were doing it,” said the MP. She said the “disreputable” landlords renting to Roma were almost exclusively Pakistanis, happy to take high rents for substandard properties, secure that the Roma would not complain.

… Angry Fir Vale parents – most Pakistanis, no Roma – shouted at a panel of wincing white council workers about “them”. Their new Roma neighbours. “David Blunkett was right!” yelled one man. “This is a ticking time bomb. If it goes off, you’re going to need the army.”

They refused to see the hijab incident as an isolated scrap between teenage girls. “This is not just a school issue… This is ready to blow up. Bang,” warned one man. “We’ve lived here 35, 40 years and you expect us to sit silently,” said another, claiming that he had 60 cousins ready to provide back-up for what he said could be “a riot like you’ve never seen before in your life”. …

In Rotherham last week, the Observer met a small group of young Roma women at the Clifton Learning Partnership, which helps Roma settle into UK life. Like their compatriots in Page Hall, they are fed up with being blamed for every piece of litter on Eastwood’s streets, every dumped mattress, every late-night party. “It’s all our fault, all Roma fault, like always, everywhere,” despaired one 27-year-old, who came to Eastwood nine years ago and didn’t want to be named.

Everywhere the poor Roma go, the locals come up with the exact same conspiracy theories about their behavior. Steve Bannon must be behind these stereotypes.

“Because we live here, where there is a big population of Roma, they say we are doing all this mess… All other communities are perfectly brilliant,” she said, with deep sarcasm. …

Two years ago Rotherham council started to pay a street cleaner to litter pick in Eastwood from 6am to 2pm, five days a week. “When I leave, it’s spotless. The next day it looks a mess,” she said.

Fortunately, Rotherham doesn’t have any other social problems to deal with.

 
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  1. Now the Pakis know how the Brits feel about having them around.

  2. Roma are now using asylum claims to get into the US from Mexico. I had a Roma kid in my ELL class for approximately 6 weeks–on paper. In fact, he showed up about 5 days. He spoke English, had never been in a formal classroom, made absolutely everything he said sound like a lie whether it was or not. Then he quit showing up.

    Be very afraid. Very afraid. And get that asylum glitch fixed.

    • Agree: Bubba
  3. Question: Just throwing it out here, is it possible, just possible, that the Rotherham Pakis see the Roma as competitors for the tweenish white English women? I mean, who exactly do the pre-teen English belong to, if not the local Pakis?

    In other words, could there be some teritorialism a la “Hands off our women, Roma! Don’t even THINK about trying to groom the native English teens or make attempts to lure them back to your places! They’re ours, they belong to us! After all, if there’s more than one vibrant immigrant community vying for the affections of the girls, the bobbies might get embarrassed and have to actually look into the matter more seriously. So adios, gypsies, and take your garbage with you!”

    Throughout the animal kingdom, males have been fighting vs. one another to gain the female’s affections for many billions of years. Pakis vs Roma wouldn’t be the first time it happened.

  4. Everywhere the Roma go,the locals accuse them of stereotypical behavior.
    Hmmmm…where’d I hear that compliant before?

  5. Whiskey says: • Website

    This is the future of the West. Victory goes to whoever can muster out the most street fighting cousins.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  6. “A two-bed terrace on Milton Road, one of the most fly-tipped streets, sold in 2015 for £38,000. Four years previously it had been bought for £59,950.”

    How horribly bourgeois! Must be a nightmare when you have negative equity and one in five local men are under police investigation for serious offences which could lead long long prison sentences.

  7. Daniel H says:

    >> “We’ve lived here 35, 40 years and you expect us to sit silently,” said another, claiming that he had 60 cousins ready to provide back-up for what he said could be “a riot like you’ve never seen before in your life”. …

    The Paki has 60 cousins, most, presumably, living around the Rotherham area. No words necessary, we all know the implications of this.

    Can’t offer a coherent justification for my support, but I’m rooting for the Gypsies on this one.

  8. JimB says:

    When you remove the partition between two different gases, entropy always increased. Likewise, when you remove national boundaries, social entropy goes up. Or as David Bryne sings in Wild, Wild Life, “Things fall apart. It’s scientific.”

    And what’s up with all the Roma families begging outside of Safeway’s in California? I’ve noticed this in just past three years. Did Obama send three aircraft carriers to pick up half the Roma population in Romania?

  9. anonymous[338] • Disclaimer says:

    fly-tipping – the deliberate dumping of rubbish in an unauthorized place

    learn something new!

    • Replies: @jay-w
    , @El Dato
    , @Cowboy Shaw
  10. songbird says:

    “Boiling pot” seems a more appropriate phrase these days than “melting pot.”

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Anthony Aaron
  11. Jim Given says:

    An amazing quote from community leaders, “We have to change the behaviour and the culture of the incoming community, the Roma community, because there’s going to be an explosion otherwise. We all know that.”

    Absolutely astonishing! First that they would at this late stage of devolution, believe that such a thing was desirable! “Changing their behavior” sounds inherently racist, exploitative, and post-colonial. Second that they could imagine themselves capable of it. The Roma do not come to England to become English. They come to England to make part of England part of Romany.

    • Replies: @BigDickNick
  12. Daniel H says:

    A thought occurs to me, whatever intuitive civilizational strategy the Gypsies practice, it is certainly the correct one for reproductive national success, which is ultimately the only success that matters. With origins in a small band of camp followers, somewhere out of the north India frontier 800 years ago, they have grown into a dispersed nation of over 10 million. Good luck with the fantasy that Gypsies will ever assimilate themselves to the host in any meaningful way. Gypises are going to gypsy because it works.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
  13. It’s funny how Brits exercise great caution to not offend Pakistanis, but wag their tongues a bit more freely with Roma. I assume this is because Roma are white and European, and therefore lower on the Pokemon Diversity Points scale.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @White Guy In Japan
  14. J.Ross says: • Website

    “Zionist Jews aren’t the enemies of the Constitution.”
    Maryland Senator Ben Cardin: “Hold my Manischewitz.”

    https://theintercept.com/2017/07/25/cardin-amend-israel-boycott-bill-bds/

    The ACLU warned last week that the measure, which targets the BDS movement, was unconstitutional and would have a chilling effect on free speech. In the wake of that warning, and a subsequent article by The Intercept, co-sponsors of the bill have begun to re-examine their support for it.

    Cardin said that the ACLU had misinterpreted his legislation, but if it needed to be clarified, he would take the steps to do so. “A lot of the co-sponsors are pretty strongly committed to the freedom of speech,” Cardin said. “We’re certainly sensitive to the issues they raise. If we have to make it clearer, we’ll make it clearer.”

    One issue of contention is whether criminal penalties such as a 20-year prison sentence would apply to those who violate the law. “I actually read it. Turns out, all of this is wrong,” offered the legal affairs correspondent for the Daily Beast in his hot take on the bill. “The ACLU misread the law.”

    On Monday night, in an op-ed in the Washington Post, two top officials at the ACLU stood by their legal interpretation. “Violations would be punishable by civil and criminal penalties of up to $1 million and 20 years in prison,” write David Cole and Faiz Shakir, the ACLU’s legal and political directors, respectively.

    “We thought we only dealt with civil penalties, not criminal penalties,” Cardin told The Intercept. “But if that’s not clear, we’re willing to deal with these issues.”

    If the bill were amended to clarify that no criminal penalties could be applied, violators would still face a $250,000 civil fine or more.

    Cardin also said that individual American citizens who backed a boycott of Israel would face no legal consequences, and made that point in a letter penned with co-sponsor Sen. Rob Portman, R-Ohio, which was sent to colleagues on Friday.

    But the text of the bill bans actions “which have the effect of furthering or supporting restrictive trade practices or boycotts fostered or imposed by any international governmental organization against Israel or requests to impose restrictive trade practices or boycotts by any international governmental organization against Israel.”

    So:
    >There is still a disturbing tendency of law school graduates to imagine that they can do anything they want as long as they use the word “civil.” Double jeopardy, compelled belief, censorship, and persecuting dissent is okay because it’s civil and not criminal law. As criminal law these things would plainly be un-Constitutional. But the foundational legal document apparently does not apply to civil law so we’re good.
    >Ben Cardin is the guy behind the completely embarrassing, ineffective, and unjustifiable sanctions on Russia for white collar criminal Bill Browder.
    >

    • Replies: @Lot
  15. “Rotherham Pakistanis Denounce New Immigrant Gypsies”

    With declining birth rates, there are only so many teenage white girls to go around.

    “Everywhere the poor Roma go, the locals come up with the exact same conspiracy theories about their behavior.”

    I’ve heard that said about some other group of people before… hmmm; I can’t quite remember who they are, but I know that’s who we are.

  16. Anon[252] • Disclaimer says:

    Hey the Roma show up , refuse to assimilate and expect their host country to assimilate and tolerate their ways. Dont they know that type of behavior is ONLY acceptable for Muslims moving to western nations
    Sheesh these Roma are Isomophobic.

  17. Heh…like watching seagull vs dumpster squirrel fighting over crappy discarded parking lot fries.

    Strange, you would think these two groups would get on well considering their common ground.

  18. Dan Hayes says:

    Steve,

    Ireland has its own version of the Roma. Their current PC nomenclature is Itinerants whereas previous handles were Travelers and even before that Tinkers. In Ireland they have a well deserved reputation for general mayhem although not being a serious crime-threat. And they are WHITE, as white or whiter than Ireland’s general population!

    Of course Ireland’s media fawns over them. But there is underlying resentment over their oftentimes boorish behavior. This was shown in Ireland’s recent Presidential election where an outside candidate came in second after making some mild complaints about their behavior (they demanded horse corrals along with state-provided housing!).

  19. Spend a little time in Europe and you’ll learn about Gypsies.

  20. Lurker says:

    Close the borders, deport the invaders, crush the traitors.

    • Replies: @njguy73
  21. George says:

    Fun Fact: The Roma originate might originate from Pakistan.

    The Romani people, also referred to depending on the sub-group as Roma, Sinti or Sindhi, or Kale are an Indo-Aryan ethnic group, who live primarily in Europe. They originated in northwest regions of the Indian subcontinent[1][2][3] and left sometime between the 6th and 11th century to work in Middle Eastern courts of their own volition, or as slaves.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Romani_people#Origin

    • Replies: @gate666
  22. DuanDiRen says:

    Totally OT, but a long term trend of interest:

    https://kenopalo.com/2018/11/01/africas-elusive-green-revolution/

    My impression is that modern agricultural techniques are becoming so productive that SSA cannot remain hopeless in terms of food production for much longer. In particular, lots of Chinese market farmers are setting up on the outskirts of African cities, and growing vegetables for sale in the cities. Congo, for example, has some of the most ludicrously fertile soil on the planet. The guy who wrote “Dancing in the Glory of Monsters” spoke with very old German (Belgian?) farmers who had lived there, and they spoke of harvesting three crops of fruit per year from each tree.

    If you are relying on famine to stop Africa’s population grow, you are going to be sorely disappointed.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  23. Mr. Anon says:

    In Rotherham, Doncaster, Derby, Peterborough, Glasgow and Luton, the local authorities continue to grapple with the challenges brought by their new Roma residents since EU expansion into eastern Europe in the 2000s.

    Eastern Europe to the UK: “Tag! You’re it!”

    I don’t know what country is being described in this article, but it isn’t England. Not any England any one would have recognized as recently as – what? – forty years ago?

    Perhaps it should be redubbed Davosstan. This is the future that globalism has delivered to us. Not only is every secretarian conflict anywhere replicated everywhere (so that, for example, pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian activists shout at each other across police barricades on the campus of San Francisco State University), we now have entirely new, synthetic inter-ethnic conflicts, hitherto unimaginable. Pakistanis vs. Gypsies. Somalis vs. Hondurans. Hottentots vs. Hmong (why not?). The World is flat…………………..much like the arena floor in the Colosseum

    • Agree: densa, Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  24. What on earth is “fly-tipping”? I’m imagining a housefly being pushed over onto its side.

    One of the Pakistanis threatened that he had 60 cousins ready to back him up. 60 cousins! Now that’s some serious clannishness. How many people do you know who have 60 cousins that they can call on?

    On the brighter side, sounds like the price of housing in that area isn’t too bad. Can you commute from there to a good job somewhere else?

    • Replies: @Pheasant
    , @OFWHAP
  25. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dan Hayes

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @(((They))) Live
  26. Beckow says:

    To be historically accurate, Roma and Pakistanis are the same people. The main difference is that Roma walked into Europe 800 years ago, and Pakistanis came on planes more recently. But they are ethnically the same tribe.

    The experience Europe has had with the relatively small Roma groups over the last few centuries has been dismal: few assimilated, most have been stuck in the tribal (‘Pakistani’ or ‘Indian’) way of life always trying to live off the majority society. Different policies that have been tried from affirmative action, mainstreaming to outright terror, have failed. Roma have stayed mostly the same, living in their own way, not buying into the European civilisation norms.

    The latter-day Indo-Pakistani migrants will most likely be the same as Roma. Except there are a lot more of them – order of magnitude or more – and they have been welcomed by worshipping liberals. Who thought this would be a good idea?

  27. Before I write anything else, can we PLEASE start calling them Gypsies! Roma is not familiar to lots of people, though I know they want it that way. This is another misconceived euphemism that would be just as bad as Asian, if there were more of the gypsies.

  28. “Our diversity is our strengthoe”. I was very enthusiastic about the Perot candidacy back in ‘92. But he liked to say this at his campaign events and even then it would make me cringe.

  29. Rosie says:
    @Bragadocious

    I assume this is because Roma are white and European, and therefore lower on the Pokemon Diversity Points scale.

    Um, no.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
    • LOL: Jus' Sayin'...
    • Replies: @Fredrik
  30. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel H

    It works sometimes. Gypsies leave when the local population gets Gypsy-wise and runs them out.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  31. Cato says:

    The enlightened attitude of Hungarians toward multiculturalism was won through generations of living with Roma.

    Here is a video showing one of the more strenuous cultural activities of the Roma:

    • Replies: @El Dato
    , @dr kill
  32. Irish Travellers are abundant hereabouts, and are well known for criminal behavior. https://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/crime/article15607130.html

    As for Roma, I am personally familiar with them. A friend of mine was robbed by Roma kids in the plaza surrounding the Duomo in Florence, Italy. This happened many years ago. She and I were walking through the plaza when we were swarmed by dozens of Roma kids. Moments later she began to scream, “Polizia!” The kids have stolen her passport and wallet from inside her down jacket!

    Fortunately, the authorities were quick to capture the kids, and the Roma coughed up the wallet and passport immediately.

    Being Roma really is a blast.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Father O'Hara
  33. @Beckow

    ‘To be historically accurate, Roma and Pakistanis are the same people. The main difference is that Roma walked into Europe 800 years ago, and Pakistanis came on planes more recently. But they are ethnically the same tribe…’

    Please. Pakistanis aren’t a ‘tribe.’ They’re Indians who practice Islam. Since Gypsies don’t practice Islam, you might equally well equate them with Indians.

    Actually, I wouldn’t equate Gypsies with anyone. It would almost necessarily be very insulting.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Anon
  34. Ed says:

    A thousand year Indian subcontinent family reunion in the British Isles.

    • LOL: Cato
  35. It’s comic to notice there’s an almost perfect inverse relationship between the number of Gypsies in a community and the tolerance expressed towards them.

    This happens with a lot of groups — but I’ve never seen such a perfect match as one gets with Gypsies. Nobody who deals with them retains any illusions about them for long.

  36. @Daniel H

    Like several other racial groups who’ve recently flooded into Europe, the Gypsies are effectively low-level parasites. They survive by living off the surpluses created by other, more responsible, more intelligent, more decent races. Unfortunately for the Gypsies and other such parasitic races, in many areas the parasite populations now far outnumber the original host population. Low-level parasitism will no longer be an effective strategy in these circumstances.

    OTOH, high-level parasitic races seek control of their host population. The disorganization created by low-level parasitic races usually works to the advantage of these high-level parasites. The only danger is that the strategy of encouraging influxes of low-level parasitic races may ultimately so weaken the host populations, as to destroy the cultural, social, political, and economic underpinnings that made a parasitic existence possible.

    It will be interesting to see which strategies – those of the host populations or the various low-level and high-level parasite races – are ultimately most successful.

    Let the games begin!

  37. jay-w says:
    @anonymous

    Thanks for clearing that up.

    I thought maybe it was like cow-tipping, but on a smaller scale or something. ;-)

  38. istevefan says:

    It has been some time since I saw the movies Gandhi and Michael Collins. So maybe I am wrong. But I can’t recall in either anyone demanding of the British anything but to leave their nation. Gandhi wanted them to leave India. Collins wanted them out of Ireland. Did I miss the part where Gandhi and Collins also put on their to-do lists being allowed to emigrate at will to Great Britain?

    Another thing I find odd is that Great Britain didn’t seem to become multicultural when it actually was an imperial power. I am sure you could find an odd non-European here or there a couple hundred years ago. But my impression is that Britain was overwhelmingly white and British in 1850 at the height of her empire. But after she lost her empire, her non-white, non-European population exploded.

    Contrast this to Rome. When Rome was the center of the world all sorts came to the imperial city. Outside of today’s EU open borders madness, was Rome a multiculti center after it had long ceased to be an imperial power center?

  39. @Anonymous

    Tyson Fury AFAIK only does his fighting in the ring, the rest of them like to settle their scores in bare knuckle fights on quiet country roads, but there is an upside, in the weeks leading up to the fight they like to upload videos to youtube, where they insult each other in ever more hilarious ways, the language is just appalling

    I saw this one the other day, first time I ever saw a gay Traveller

    One of the all time classics

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
  40. @Beckow

    Many think the Gypsies are descendants of low caste Indians who fled the subcontinent. The average IQs of the two populations – shockingly low – tend to support this hypothesis. The new Paki invaders may be slightly higher quality in terms of intelligence. But this isn’t saying a lot.

    I pray for White America’s ancestral European homeland. At least we have two oceans to protect us from the particular races now invading Europe. Europe appears to be defenseless.

    • Replies: @a reader
  41. @Gary in Gramercy

    I doubt it. I bet those Pakistanis would screech about “racism” when the BNP comes to town.

    One of the weirder things about dealing with the various non-white groups is their total lack of self-awareness.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    , @Dieter Kief
  42. @istevefan

    The British ruling class/establishment imposed this fate on the UK when they created the fiction of a Commonwealth of Nations. They did this to mask the fact that they were responsible for losing/destroying the British Empire. The ruling class’s fiction of a Commonwealth required the free immigration of hordes from the ex-colonies. Such immigration increased over time, since the ex-colonies began turning into shitholes as soon as the British left. The rest is just very sad history.

  43. El Dato says:
    @anonymous

    “Pretty fly for a diverse guy”

  44. @Bragadocious

    The Romani are from Indo-Aryan stock, but not what I would call white. They may be from the untouchable caste in India.

    Imagine being so foul of a people you get booted out of the Empire of Public Defecation.

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
  45. @(((They))) Live

    LOL! The BBC doesn’t show that on their idiotic, “My Crazy Gypsy Wedding” shows!

  46. Beckow says:
    @Colin Wright

    …you might equally well equate them with Indians

    You could. Although linguistic, cultural and DNA analysis of Roma links them with the Indus valley region – today the heart of Pakistan. They left before Islam, and their beliefs suggests that they were lower ‘castes’, maybe native tribes that were overrun by the Indo-European invasion of India.

    I am also not ‘equating‘ them, there are too many specifics to each, and 800 to 1,000 years are a long time. But they are people of the same stock from the same region. It took a combination of liberal morons (looking at you Blair) and neo-Thatcherite globalists to put them back together, this time in England.

    Enjoy, they have done wonders in their old country, I am sure they will be great for England.

  47. istevefan says:

    “We’ve lived here 35, 40 years and you expect us to sit silently,”

    The British have lived there for 350, 400 years and even longer, and they are punished if they do not sit silently.

  48. El Dato says:
    @Cato

    Definitely not boringly white and everyone can participate. Bring your own hammer!

    The knowledge economy is coming. It is based on having muscular cousins on speed dial.

    Using Pakistanis to patrol the street and make Gypsies “move along” doesn’t sound like a totally bad idea. It can’t be racism, and bubbles of violence and can be explained by the permanent oppression that muslims must endure in a white society living by the sea with no mountain range anywhere. You must understand….

    This is how it works in the Balkans, right? The Balkans have come to Blighty, so better adapt.

    Officialize by handing out a berêt and truncheons made in China. Done.

    • Replies: @anon
  49. The funny thing is, the Pakistanis of Rotherham are mostly Miripuris. Apparently, based on what I’ve read online, Miripuris are held in contempt by other Pakistanis in pretty much the same way that Gypsies are held in contempt by most Europeans on the Continent. They’re seen as scheming, thieving connivers and layabouts.

    There’s something karmic about the two groups bumping up against each other. If only everyone else in Rotherham didn’t have to suffer as well.

    https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2564930

  50. @Mr. Anon

    Yep, that’s very much like Steve’s speculation about the zoo animals. Let’s just put all these people who’ve never been at war because they are too far apart together in one place … and broadcast in on the internet. We don’t have enough seating here at the zoo, so let’s host the whole thing on Blair’s dairy farm. The cows won’t mind – they say diversity is their strength.

    • LOL: bomag
  51. @istevefan

    “We’ve lived here 35, 40 years and you expect us to sit silently, …”

    Heavens, no! Wouldn’t hear of it, chaps. We expect you’ll get up, and go ahead and sod off back to Pakistan, ya bloody wankers.

  52. El Dato says:
    @istevefan

    Contrast this to Rome. When Rome was the center of the world all sorts came to the imperial city. Outside of today’s EU open borders madness, was Rome a multiculti center after it had long ceased to be an imperial power center?

    It certainly was, having been sacked a bit by various tribes. Probably dangerous.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_Period#Viewpoints

    Anyone know of a good description of what “life in Rome” was like back in ~400 AD? Economics must have been interesting.

  53. For some reason, like the commenter above, I’m rooting for the gypsies too. I’d put money on the Pakistanis, but it’s fun rooting for the underdog. However, this would best be handled by the Englishmen, if there are any non-sex-slaved ones left, via utter inactivity and un-involvement. The police should have a strike, just like the US Navy and Air Force should have stayed out of it when Iran was at war with Iraq. I mean, you could sell some munitions to both sides to test them out.

    • Replies: @Mike1
  54. @istevefan

    I am sure you could find an odd non-European here or there a couple hundred years ago. But my impression is that Britain was overwhelmingly white and British in 1850 at the height of her empire. But after she lost her empire, her non-white, non-European population exploded.

    Contrast this to Rome. When Rome was the center of the world all sorts came to the imperial city.

    You could walk or ride a horse or donkey to Rome from most places in the Roman Empire. But to go to London, you had to be able to afford passage on a ship for a weeks-long journey. Accordingly, most British subjects from the Empire who went to London were upper-class natives, usually headed there for education. For instance, a very large proportion of the elite Indians behind the Indian nationalist movement were London educated lawyers from well-to-do families. Gandhi was one.

    Another factor might have been that news of the vast wealth and opportunity that industrialization had created in Britain in the 19th century got out to the periphery only slowly, and that the two World Wars stymied any natural pattern of economic migration that might have otherwise developed.

    Lastly, it is hard for us Americans (especially) to understand now, but in most non-white cultures around the world, until a few generations ago, people were really conservative about leaving home and hearth. They were leery of uprooting and moving to other lands, leaving behind family, culture, tradition and so on, in order to try and integrate into a completely alien and foreign peoples and nation. Hindus had a very strong religious taboo against crossing the ocean, which they called the “Black Water.” I vaguely recall reading that Gandhi had to get some kind of special dispensation from an elderly relative in order to go and pursue his law studies.

    The Japanese are still quite a bit like that. It’s not just their relatively high levels of prosperity that keeps them mostly happily at home in Japan.

  55. anon[315] • Disclaimer says:

    “Roma” means “Gypsy”, but in England these days “Gypsy” might just mean “English outlaw”. For instance, that bloke that got stabbed robbing an old feller in London earlier in the year. (Or was it last year?) I wonder if that’s why it’s become okay for the Guardian to acknowledge this anti-social behaviour? Normally to do so would be racist.

    It is quite remarkable to read the whole article and sense the Guardian’s confusion over the who and the whom. I suspect the Roma’s obvious whiteness merits some disdain, and hence the somewhat accurate reporting of their bad behaviour; but on the other hand, they are an officially-and-unofficially designated minority, and, being migrants from within the EU, their community will be hard hit by Brexit, which is bad (and shoehorned into the article). Meanwhile, Pakistanis are brown, hence Good; but they’re starting to sound suspiciously Bad:

    “We’ve lived here 35, 40 years and you expect us to sit silently,” said another, claiming that he had 60 cousins ready to provide back-up for what he said could be “a riot like you’ve never seen before in your life”.

    If a white man said that, the Guardian’s headline would be “Racist Threatens Pogrom”. (Incidentally, isn’t this kind of collective violence precisely how Pakistanis would deal with this situation back in the old country? I guess “35, 40 years” isn’t enough to fully integrate.)

    Anyway, it’s nice to see some truth slip through the cracks at the Guardian. It must be very disturbing to their more thoughtful readers, despite the article’s attempts to sooth:

    “Perhaps the real story here is a focus on the community being let down by many so-called support organisations, many with taxpayer funding, which appear to be inactive,” he wrote. “The school reflects the community it serves; that community has a lot of underlying tensions. What the whole community needs is something to unify it, not divide it further.”

    Yes, that’s what’s needed: kumbayas and superior technocracy!

  56. @Achmed E. Newman

    Oops, so sorry Steve. I see that you use the right term and even explained. All the “Roma” bits are in your excerpts. I should not skim. I almost missed your usual great sarcasm.

  57. @White Guy In Japan

    One of the weirder things about dealing with the various non-white groups is their total lack of self-awareness.

    I think they are totally self-aware. It’s just that they have no compunctions about engaging in Kto-Kogo/Who-Whom struggles. “Racism for me, but not for thee” is a natural corollary to that mindset.

  58. njguy73 says:
    @Dan Hayes

    There was a show on FX where Minnie Driver played the matriarch of a Traveller family who take on the identities of a dead family.

  59. njguy73 says:
    @Lurker

    Close the borders, deport the invaders, crush the traitors.

    Wow. That’s really something. I never thought of that.

    After a half-century of undocumented persons migrating in and out of the country, a clear plan is finally stated.

  60. Anon[232] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    They’re Indians who practice Islam.

    Did you just call AJP Abdul Kalam a Paki?

    • Replies: @Anon
  61. anon[315] • Disclaimer says:
    @A Texas Reader

    I once visited a city where there were a lot of Roma around. The men were selling things from carts, the old women were begging. Perhaps the young women were elsewhere, selling something else.

    Anyway, I’m sitting on a bench in the middle of the day when this van pulls up down the road. Over the next few minutes, a bunch of Roma men, women and kids arrive – they load up all the carts in the van, get in it and a couple of other cars, and scarper.

    I’ve always marvelled at how quickly they were able to pack up their entire operation and get out of dodge, as well as wondered what made them run.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Bill B.
  62. Anon[232] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Typo: should be “APJ”.

  63. ISteve favorite Tracy Ullman is part Roma.

    But when we’re talking about ‘worst cultures in the world,’ Pakistanis are right up there with gypsies. Maybe they’re mad because the gypsies don’t let them pimp out their children.

    Nice knowing you, England.

  64. Curle says:
    @istevefan

    Hillaire Belloc suggests the rot started with Benjamin Disraeli, Prime Minister 1874-80, who opened the door, by example, to non-indigenous Britons serving in the civil service.

    • Replies: @Fred Boynton
  65. Pheasant says:
    @PiltdownMan

    Indeed. Tribalism inhibits reciprocity and moral universalism.

  66. @PiltdownMan

    ‘…The Japanese are still quite a bit like that. It’s not just their relatively high levels of prosperity that keeps them mostly happily at home in Japan…’

    Yet — in at least apparent defiance of your theory — Japanese were very willing to emigrate back in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. They’re probably the most numerous ethnicity in Hawaii, lots came to the West Coast, and there are substantial Japanese communities in Brazil and Peru.

    On the other hand, one nationality that has never evinced much enthusiasm for emigration is the French. Even when it came to Algeria, most of the colons were actually Spaniards or Italians.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
  67. Lot says:
    @J.Ross

    No, you BDS jihadis are the enemies of the American Constitution and way of life.

    • Replies: @Svigor
    , @Mr. Anon
    , @J.Ross
  68. @PiltdownMan

    Perhaps some are lacking self-awareness while others are playing a strategy. I would guess a strong correlation with intelligence.

  69. Pheasant says:
    @Dan Hayes

    ‘although not being a serious crime-threat. ‘

    Actually they are well known for fraud. They also engage in slavery of vulnreble individuals and lead incredibly nihilistic lives sometimes leading to extreme violence. In addition to engaging in regular fraud they also engage in identity fraud as well as drug trafficking. To the Americans here imagine them as the closest thing Ireland and the UK has to motorcycle gangs.

  70. Pheasant says:
    @stillCARealist

    Tipping is illegal dumping of rubbish/garbage. Think of a truck tipping its load backward. The fly part comes from on the fly meaning that you do it surreptitiously and quickly as it is illegal. It is a real problem in Britain as once people find a spot where they can get away with illegal dumping people very quickly dump commercial waste which can be much more hazardous.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
  71. @El Dato

    Anyone know of a good description of what “life in Rome” was like back in ~400 AD? Economics must have been interesting.

    Yes. If you’ve got the time, and you like the medium, I recommend ‘The Fall of Rome Podcast’:

    https://wondery.com/shows/the-fall-of-rome-podcast/

    It’s well-produced and entertaining. The guy who writes and narrates it, Patrick Wyman, is a specialist in late Roman trade patterns, so you get plenty about the economics of the era. There’s lots about the Goths and other ‘barbarians’ as well. I really enjoyed it.

    • Replies: @william munny
  72. Pheasant says:
    @istevefan

    ‘The British have lived there for 350, 400 years ‘

    Try 3500, 4000 years and even longer.

  73. @DuanDiRen

    ‘If you are relying on famine to stop Africa’s population grow, you are going to be sorely disappointed.’

    I’m still optimistic. Notice something about the two successful groups of farmers you mentioned?

    Neither one was African.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  74. Lot says:
    @El Dato

    In 400AD Rome was emptied out, the capital of the Western Empire was moved to Milan around 280. It got much worse when the Visigoths sacked Rome in 410.

  75. 1661er says:
    @Beckow

    It’s not even a real county, it’s a [email protected]%*#+! acronym. Hardly a “tribe” as Roman used that term.

  76. Fredrik says:

    Suddenly you hear all these white English speaking about immigrants that don’t behave.

    It’s because they immigrants are perceived to be white. The very same English don’t have any complaints about the Pakis. English people prefer Commonwealht immigrants like the Pakis who are close to them in terms of behaviour etc. before the European foreigners.

    Nigel Farage: “I have to confess I do have a slight preference. I do think, naturally, that people from India and Australia are in some ways more likely to speak English, understand common law and have a connection with this country than some people that come perhaps from countries that haven’t fully recovered from being behind the iron curtain.”

  77. Fredrik says:
    @Rosie

    The average English knows only these are Eastern European, hence White.

  78. @Colin Wright

    I meant the modern day Japanese, rather than the Nikkeijin displaced by the vast changes in the Japanese rural economy caused by the Meiji restoration, or the Japanese in the Philippines, who were imported as slaves. Historically, emigration was severely limited, if not prohibited, by the Tokugawa Shogunate.

    But yeah, fair point.

  79. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @PiltdownMan

    The Japanese rarely emigrate but they are voracious world travelers on vacations.

    • Replies: @White Guy In Japan
  80. 1661er says:
    @PiltdownMan

    The Japanese are still quite a bit like that. It’s not just their relatively high levels of prosperity that keeps them mostly happily at home in Japan.

    One of my grandfather would had been surprised to hear that, as he was the only local in his high school class, there were another one in his year, and a handful in his whole school. All the rest were 2nd generation born in the colony, and a few new arrivals from the home islands. Other members of the family worked with them in Manchuria and Korea. Heck, looking back in history, Koxiga was half-Japanese himself. A lot of his crew were “wokou,” Viking like Japanese raiders/pirates.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wokou
    The only time period where people are bounded to their location was under the Tokugawa Shogunate’s Sankin-kotai systems. The peasants are bounded to their domains in serfdom. The lords are required to spend times in rotation at court, and they need to leave hostages behind when they return to their own domains. So Tokugawa instituted a series of checkpoints to prevent the hostages from leaving without authorization and prevent lords from marching toward Edo unauthorized. Eventually that system broke down long before Tokugawas got removed from power. That episode is relatively short part of Japanese history, and does not represent the nature tendency of Japanese people.

  81. @A Texas Reader

    They called us gypsies tramps and thieves
    But every night all the men would come around

    And lay their money down…

  82. llloyd says: • Website

    Apart from their disgusting pimping practices with promiscuous English girls, the Pakistanis are certainly an improvement on the Romas. Might I cautiously suggest that is the influence of Islam? I read here they both originated from North West India.

  83. Anonymous[250] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    I’ve always marvelled at how quickly they were able to pack up their entire operation and get out of dodge, as well as wondered what made them run.

    Probably the local mob.

    I remember having at least one “must read” story at school about kids having a day out with free-wheeling vibrant gypsies, eating hedgehogs grilled in an open fireplace and listening to a gypsy orchestra. There was nothing in there about “how to make a living from a caravan”. Weird.

    Then it became “verboten” to use the word “gypsy”. Mandatorily, “Sinti & Roma”. I always thought Sinit were big cats driving spaceships, but no!

  84. Back in the 90s, there was a lot of tension between Roma and Muslims in the French Banlieus. So this is nothing new.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  85. Anonymous[560] • Disclaimer says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    So what happened? All I hear is that the Roma now either ransack with impunity or are hired for “protection services” at building sites.

  86. @songbird

    Actually — here in the US it’s become more like a ‘chamber’ pot …

  87. donut says:
    @Dan Hayes

    We’ve got them too .

    https://www.irishcentral.com/culture/who-are-the-irish-travellers-in-the-us

    There was a movie “Traveller” from ’97 starring Bill Paxton and Mark Wahlberg about a group of Travelers from S. Carolina . Pretty good I thought .

  88. anon[315] • Disclaimer says:
    @istevefan

    When Rome was the center of the world all sorts came to the imperial city.

    But not necessarily of their own volition.

    Technology might have had an impact here: industrialisation obviates the need for slaves, the printing press and later telegraph lessen the tyranny of distance… maybe there are others I’m not thinking of.

    Rome was also an empire for a lot longer than Britain was. Maybe that made a difference.

  89. anon[315] • Disclaimer says:
    @El Dato

    Using Pakistanis to patrol the street and make Gypsies “move along” doesn’t sound like a totally bad idea. It can’t be racism, and bubbles of violence and can be explained by the permanent oppression that muslims must endure in a white society living by the sea with no mountain range anywhere.

    I’ve been wondering lately whether this strategy isn’t already in place in Europe. Certainly, it’s the case that all these Muslims are scaring away the Jews, so far particularly in France. This is either an accident, or it’s not.

    At the very least, I think this is a novel explanation for Merkel’s Million-Muslim Mistake, even if it isn’t very likely: the EU is secretly run by anti-Semites!

    And it’s actually less crazy than it sounds, since the EU has always been keener on Palestine than the rest of the west, and latterly, keener on Iran.

    Edit: and, to bring it all back round, maybe the plan is for the Gypsies to eventually scare away the Muslims!

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  90. gate666 says:
    @George

    they are substantially mixed with european population.

  91. @Dan Hayes

    Ireland’s most vicious drugs gang was a traveller gang. It took the police years to get to grips with them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthy-Dundon

  92. @Anonymous

    But all they do is move the problem elsewhere.  Leeches and thieves need to cease being a problem, not turned into someone else’s problem.

  93. @White Guy In Japan

    Yeah, I gree with you and PiltdownMan and I would just slip in the adjective critical: “lack of critical self-awareness” might be just about righter, (hehe).

  94. Anonymous[365] • Disclaimer says:

    The irony is, of course, is that the ‘Slovak’ Roma are fully the kith and Kin of the ‘Sheffield’ Pakistanis. Most likely they are full genetic relations from the same part of the Indian sub continent and of of pre Islamic conquest low caste origin.

    By any rate the are both far far more related to each other than they are to the English former owners of the soil.

    • Replies: @Anon
  95. Anonymous[365] • Disclaimer says:

    What really gets to me about Pakistanis living in Britain is their *absolutely breathtaking* shamelessness.

  96. @Daniel H

    I really don’t get your upsettedness here, so to speak, since there is less of a difference between cousins and uncles and brothers etc. anyhow. So: What’s to worry about cousins, especially?

    By the way: All you have to do to solve your problem is to understand the utter repressiveness of all these white concepts and terms you’re using here in the first place, and I mean not least a term like “cousin”, see?

    (Irony off).

  97. @Daniel H

    Roma vs. Pakistani: Who Wins? The English!

  98. Anonymous[365] • Disclaimer says:
    @Beckow

    The Economist.

  99. Anonymous[365] • Disclaimer says:
    @istevefan

    Since the Bronze Age, in fact.

  100. @education realist

    Agreed. The Roma are very resistant to assimilation. Their deep rooted culture of petty crime, pickpocketing, using children as accomplices in street cons & generally driving civic life into the mire should be known. This is one ethnic group you better be Very Careful around.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  101. @anon

    Principal Skinner had a similar plan involving Chinese needle snakes.

    • Replies: @william munny
    , @anon
  102. @Anonymous

    The Japanese don’t emigrate much because they created a great society. Funny that.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  103. Tyrion 2 says:

    A few ago a Muslim Pakistani friend of mine absent-mindedly repeated a criticism of the Roma that is clearly common in his community. Supposedly they wait until Friday prayers and dress up as Muslims to beg for charity. My friend was incredibly aggrieved by this and classified it as a form of theft. I can see both sides, but neither seem likely to help build a stronger British society.

  104. “It was an unusually heavy response to a fight in a school canteen: a police helicopter, police dog and 15 police vehicles all rushed to Fir Vale Academy in Page Hall, Sheffield, one Tuesday in late September.”

    That’s nothing: A few years back, UK police used £10k worth of helicopter time to bust a woman eating an apple while driving.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-335291/Pipped-Woman-driver-fined-eating-apple.html

  105. Anonymous[662] • Disclaimer says:
    @CrunchybutRealistCon

    Tony Blair’s open door immigration policy (The Economist®) has ‘enriched’ England to the extent of virtually every single English ‘High Street’ (Main Street) of note in having a whole coterie of medieval-style Roma beggars, dressed in rags, faking physical impairments, amputations and disabilities.

    It’s beyond Dickensian, it’s more Chaucerian in aspect, right down to the snoods, crutches, rags and bandages.

    So much for The Economist and its ‘progress’.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Bill B.
    , @Romanian
  106. Anonymous[662] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Come to think of it, the average shopping expedition to an English High Street now resembles something out of a 1970s Pinewood Studios medieval England pastiche starring Jack Wilde, if not Mark Lester.

    The stock character scurvy, swarthy ragged beggar squatting in a corner with his hand outreached is the new ‘normal’ now.

  107. Anonymous[662] • Disclaimer says:
    @Tyrion 2

    One thing I’ve noticed, in England, is that the white skinned general population invariably declined to give Roma beggars alms, but the dark complected Roma generally have more success with fellow sub continental Indians of all stripes.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  108. Bill B. says:
    @Gary in Gramercy

    Now the Pakis know how the Brits feel about having them around.

    Yes. The chutzpah of complaining that they had lived there for 30, 40 years and did not want to be disturbed.

    The English who developed a productive, high-trust culture on the basis of continuous possession of the land uninterrupted from at least the Norman Invasion in 1066 until the second half of the 20th Century are expected to be grateful for invasions of diversity and vibrancy into their dull, white, soon-to-be-history lives.

  109. @Whiskey

    “Victory goes to whoever can muster out the most street fighting cousins.”

    No, because if whites did that TPTB would suddenly find thousands of extra police and hundreds of extra jail cells.

    It’s sort-of funny when the Pakistanis say “we’ve been here 40 years!” when the previous occupants had been there 1500 years or so.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @BigDickNick
  110. @The Last Real Calvinist

    Me too. Patrick is smart and draws his own conclusions.

    My only criticism is that Patrick seems blind to some aspects of human nature. He insists that the German tribes had no real ethnic identities beyond that of soldier culture, because the different tribes sometimes combined. This ignores the obvious point that the tribes were very closely related and mostly indistinguishable to anyone but themselves.

    I listened to Duncan’s History of Rome too. Lots of information, although he sometimes falls into the trap of looking at Rome through modern eyes. He also spends too much time on individual emperors instead of on what life was like for typical people. I liked Patrick’s approach of following fictional characters.

  111. Sean says:

    Pakistanis can vote because they are British or Commonwealth citizens..Pakistanis and their pals in the police (none of who have been charged, or even lost their pensions despite an investigation that is going on for years) and local newspapers and politicians . They vote and threaten riots, these non Europeans. The natives are completely cowed by antiracism and don’t dare complain about anyone but Poles and Romanians, hence Brexit. The Pakistanis have went over the top of the working class in Britain now. And they are still coming in.

  112. @Steve Sailer

    And after that a fabulous kind of gorilla that thrives on snake meat.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  113. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Anonymous

    I’m not so old but I remember first encountering Roma beggars/pickpockets in Italy. People would warn of them as an exotic nuisance to be avoided. Then a few years later they were suddenly on every major street in London. This does not engender warm feelings.

    • Replies: @jim jones
    , @El Dato
  114. a reader says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...


    At least we have two oceans to protect us from the particular races now invading Europe.

    The Mediterranean Sea is a huge deterrent for Africans targeting Europe.

  115. @Daniel H

    While very ethnocentric and hostile towards outsiders, aren’t as virulently anti-Western.

    They are also more fun. This wedding video from 2030 Manchester shows.

  116. Bill B. says:
    @anon

    Some forthright commentary from an American cop magazine:

    A Gypsy child is raised being told the tale of the young Gypsy boy who saved the life of Jesus. The tale (with some variation) tells of four nails made to be used in the crucifixion: one each for the hands of Jesus, one for his feet and the fourth, a nail of gold, for his heart. Late at night the Gypsy boy stole the golden nail, so when the crucifixion took place the next day, only three nails remained. God appears to the young Gypsy boy telling the child his act of thievery saved Jesus from having the nail plunged through his heart. In payment for the boy’s deed, God allowed the Gypsies the right to steal with no moral consequences … forever and ever.

    Gypsies choose a lifestyle of thievery, one that is as natural to them as eating and sleeping. This organized crime family, masters of fraud and false identification, does not associate with normal society and speaks a language rarely mastered outside the culture. Seldom caught, rarely prosecuted and almost never jailed, Gypsies even have their own court, known as a “kris” where all grievances (marriage, territory, debts, etc.) are resolved. They look upon the rest of society simply as their “prey.”

    The Cost of the Scams

    The Gypsy crime family population in the United States is directly responsible for an estimated $15 billion dollars in varying forms of thievery annually. Gypsy hunter, Detective Donna Fitzgerald of the North Palm Beach, Florida Police Department says, “Most Gypsy crimes are directed at people who are the most vulnerable. People in times of emotional pain are often easy prey. Our elderly are their largest targets because they still trust people. The victims are our biggest concern.”

    http://www.policemag.com/channel/gangs/articles/2001/06/gypsies-kings-of-con.aspx

    • Replies: @notanon
  117. Bill B. says:
    @Anonymous

    Someone with an Economist subscription should do a collection of the newspaper’s (as it insufferably insists on being called) more egregious comments on the benefits and inevitability of diversity and migration.

  118. @william munny

    What does it say about society that all our teachable moments come from The Simpsons?

    (Just riffing off Seinfeld again, where Elaine says “It’s sad, Jerry, that all you know about classical music is from Loony Tunes.” I’m paraphrasing – it’s something like that.)

    • Replies: @anon
  119. @Daniel H

    How many of those cousins aren’t lying in an incubator or in a northern bedlam for the retarded? The real question there is how many cousins do you have that aren’t deformed.

  120. Svigor says:
    @william munny

    He also spends too much time on individual emperors instead of on what life was like for typical people.

    This is a failing of history in general, because historical records were for a long time basically just court records and rulers’ biographies, maybe some religious writing. Nobody really gave a shit about what life was like for most people, much less wrote about it.

    My impression is that we get far more historical data about everyday life from archaeology than we do from written history.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  121. @istevefan

    “was Rome a multiculti center after it had long ceased to be an imperial power center?”

    Subject to updating by modern genetic science, I think the answer is no. AFAIK, what genetic archeology there has been in Italy shows that the modern populations of Italian towns and regions (excepting the recent immigrants of the last few decades of course) are mostly similar to ancient populations of Italian towns and regions. Also that there is quite a bit more local variation between towns and regions in Italy than there in Northern Europe.

    I say “mostly” because as Rome declined it increasingly employed barbarian (mainly German and Celtic) mercenaries and had a heavily non-Italic slave class. Mercenaries were supposed retire to their own lands on the periphery of the Empire rather than to assimilate at the Imperial core, but things don’t always go how they’re supposed to. So there is a Germano-Celtic admixture to the traditional Italic population. For example, Germanic mercenary Odoacer was unpaid in 476 AD for services rendered, so he exacted payment in kind from Rome by sacking the place. Unlike the previous sackings, which were loot’n’leave exercises, Odoacer decided that maybe what was left of Western Roman civilization had some attractions after all and made himself King of Italy. Still, the numbers of his warrior-band-made-ruling-class were insufficient to to shift Italian demographics much.

    Unlike today, when advanced nations pay their foreign underclass to outbreed them, the Roman slave underclass suffered a breeding penalty so, despite their numbers, they didn’t affect Roman demographics much either.

    tl;dr: Unless Salvini is spectacularly successful, Rome will be ethnically transformed more by the immigration of the last two decades than it was by the entire previous two millennia.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  122. @anonymous

    Around here in Essex if you go walking over the countryside there are very robust gates with keypad and intercom access pad often in the middle of nowhere. The flytippers (travellers) must poke around every single track and road with constant regularity to find weak points.

    I also witnessed in summer a pretty robust mid 30s guy leaving the cricket get bopped by three 14 year old scumbag travellers in the main street of Chelmsford. They stood around gloating and filming the aftermath for a while as bystanders waited for an ambulance for this guy. They are trained to fight.

    There was a funny incident a few years back when the Connacht rugby team tracked down a stolen laptop to a traveller house. Helped they had a few Polynesians to get the laptop back, but there was still a bit of a donnybrook. https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/connacht-rugby/video-watch-the-moment-connacht-players-end-up-in-standoff-over-ireland-stars-stolen-laptop-34716203.html

    This Roma-Paki story is quite incredible. This cannot end well at all. Stand clear and get the popcorn. My money is on the Pakis, but I’m rooting for the Gypsies.

  123. anon[315] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    I tried to add that in an edit! But I ran out of time.

  124. bomag says:
    @Daniel H

    “Too bad they both can’t lose.”

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
  125. @istevefan

    Another difference then vs. now: as the Roman Empire collapsed, the cities depopulated as the economy lost the ability to support such large numbers. Indeed, whole regions–possibly the whole Empire–depopulated for the same reason, but since no census survives from those times, we don’t know the numbers specifically. Today the picture is more mixed. Detroit has depopulated Roman-style, but many more cities are swelling up with obviously useless people. Perhaps this is just temporary. Or maybe looking at the matter geographically is obsolete due to the much lower transportation costs today.

    Viewed ethnically, the white European heritage population is crashing almost everywhere, like the old Roman population did, while foreign populations rush in to fill–and overfill–the void. The massive productivity advantage of modern agriculture makes such modern population shifting feasible where formerly the insanity of replacing productive people with parasite people would have collapsed society back to subsistence agricultural quickly enough to end the process.

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @bomag
    , @istevefan
  126. bro3886 says:

    “A lot of the co-sponsors are pretty strongly committed to the freedom of speech,”

    But not the majority, apparently. You can have diversity or you can have freedom, you can’t have both. A homogeneous society may or may not be free, a diverse empire never is.

  127. @Dan Hayes

    They’re here in the US, too. Several years ago I recall reading about one such gang that sued a Hotel chain because one of the females claimed she had been violently raped while staying there. Of course, it was a scam. One of the males in the group had beaten her up. By the way, I’m Irish and I say F these people. They can get the F out of the US, along with illegal immigrants, their offspring and thousands of Russian you know who’s.

  128. David Blunkett, “Describing tensions between the more established Pakistani community and an influx of Slovakian Roma people, whom he said needed to make more of an effort to fit in,”

    Don’t you love that admonition to the Gypsies, that they “needed to make more of an effort to fit in”? “Or else what?” Mr. Plunkett? Or else you’ll perhaps urge them once more to make an effort to fit in, and when they don’t, continue to urge them? Consequences? Never. Acknowledgment of there being groups unsuited to reside among civilized people? Good god, NO!

    • Agree: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  129. @Curle

    Disreali you say? Huh, anyone know anything about this Disreali fellow? Anything at all about why he might have done this? Whose interests he may have been serving?

  130. OK, it’s a given that an American reader of The King’s English can only understand about 95% of it, even allowing that the more literate among us know that a “lorry” is a truck, a “bobby” is a police offier, an “omni” is a bus, etc. So, can someone please clarify the meaning of the term “fly tipping?” From the context, it would seem that it’s a reference to dumping trash containers. For what rational reason, I haven’t a clue, but then again we are talking about Gypsies here, an ethnicity that was run out of its native India and everywhere else along the way through Asia and Europe!

    • Replies: @notanon
  131. Anonymous[974] • Disclaimer says:
    @Almost Missouri

    The irony is that the present Pontiff is full square behind the islamification of Italy.

    While likely, this century, Rome – which, of course, includes the Vatican City – will be majority Muslim by population.

    Then, without a sword being lifted in anger, it will be a trifling matter for Rome city council to expel the Roman Catholic church from Rome ‘bag and baggage ‘ as the saying goes.

    As justification, the future Muslim Romans will merely declare that the practices of the Kuffar annoy and offend them.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
  132. Mr. Anon says:
    @Lot

    So you are against the 1st amendment then? And freedom of association? And freedom of trade (including the right NOT to trade with any particular party)?

    Sure, there are plenty of “Christians who stand with Israel”.

    Does “Israel stand with Christians”?

  133. jim jones says:
    @Tyrion 2

    You can avoid them when they are on the street but their favourite trick now is to work the carriages on the Tube.

  134. @Harry Baldwin

    Acknowledgment of there being groups unsuited to reside among civilized people? Good god, NO!

    But they o reside among civilized people. And they sure are civilized themselves, too. It’s the difference that matters. – There are all kinds of civilizations, see?

    Vive la différence, to end with Derrida – let’s dance the Lancancan and the Derridada and let the gypsie-music play! This multicultural heaven will lead to the Rotherham Renaissance – something which has been hence unheard of. Rejoice, you people!

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
  135. Anonymous[279] • Disclaimer says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Umah wants its money back!

  136. Mike1 says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    If the UK police went on strike would anyone notice?

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
  137. @Pheasant

    Thanks. Happens all over the world.

    I was talking to a Costco employee about trash in their parking lot and he said they have a crew that regularly goes out to clean up the results of illegal dumping. A gigantic empty parking lot is just too tempting for someone who doesn’t want to pay (quite low) dump fees.

  138. I missed this bit.

    “Many fear that Brexit will result in the loss of funding from the EU through the European Social Fund, undoing any progress that has been made.”

    As long as Brexit results in the loss of the Roma, it’ll be a great deal!

    (Alas the useless May administration will probably give them leave to remain, and then all their relatives will arrive via cousin marriage and “family reunion” – that’s the way it happens with Pakistanis.)

  139. bomag says:
    @Almost Missouri

    The massive productivity advantage of modern agriculture makes such modern population shifting feasible where formerly the insanity of replacing productive people with parasite people would have collapsed society back to subsistence agricultural quickly enough to end the process.

    This, and the general trend of better logistics/technology put in service to supporting more people.

    In the “old days”, this meant supporting more people who invented the better logistics/tech, and thus even more discoveries.

    Now it means expanding the Somali et al brand; problems get created faster than they are solved.

  140. pyrrhus says:
    @education realist

    Having dealt with them a bit, the Roma are low IQ criminals–that’s all they do, except sexually molesting their own children on occasion.

  141. Anon[377] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    The Gypsies have lived in Europe for over 1000 years, always at the fringes of society. With a millennia of sexually exploitation and voluntary prostitution, one can surmise that the Gypsies definitely have enough European genes in them that they ought to be considered White and European.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  142. @YetAnotherAnon

    yes, the quote of “We’ve lived here 35, 40 years and you expect us to sit silently,” really stands out for its absurdity. That was the first thing I noticed in the article.

  143. @Jim Given

    the idea that there is something wrong with roma culture is incredibly problematic and racist. We need to celebrate the spicy diversity and vibrant cultural practices they are enlivening stale pale england with.

  144. OFWHAP says:
    @stillCARealist

    One girl whom I know from college has something like 92 first cousins; she’s a Catholic from south Louisiana.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
  145. “Slovakian Roma people”

    All my grandparents immigrated, pre-1924, from Slovakia and their “in the old country” reminiscences of Gypsies made my hair stand on end. Their only compliment to Gypsies was to remark that Gypsy violinists were excellent musicians.

    In the 1950′s, right around the corner from my maternal grandparents home (in a northeastern U.S. city) Gypsies moved into a string of store fronts that they occupied as residences, and my grandparents were horrified. From this I got my own firsthand experience of Gypsies and it was not pretty because those Gypsies lied, cheated and stole as a matter of course.

    The Gypsies hung lurid curtains in their store front windows and often left the curtains parted – you could look in and see their store front living rooms, replete with red lampshades, garish oddments of bric-a-brac, and such. The alleys flanking and behind the Gypsy store front dwellings were piled with masses of discarded goods, from mattresses and sofas to stripped auto parts and a hodgepodge of clothing and accessories. We kids (my cousins lived next door to my grandparents) learned quickly not to be in the vicinity of Gypsies.

  146. nebulafox says:
    @Tyrion 2

    My girlfriend says that Indian crime syndicates pull a similar trick in Malaysia. They will huddle outside the mosques, and when crowds enter or exit, they’ll rush in and grab whoever they can. Of course, because it is Friday, the worshippers feel religiously obligated to give charity to whoever requests it to the best of their ability, no questions asked. Even if they know what is likely going on. The gangs know what they are doing.

    The gangs target the families the most: single men are more likely to get physical if they are Indian or pointedly ignore them if they are Malay (cultural differences on confrontation), single women will get scared and flee or shout, but in front of the kids, they’ll feel especially pressured to just shut up and give, both because of religion and for their own safety.

  147. @OFWHAP

    That’s probably including spouses, and from both her mom and dad’s sides. Still, it’s a LOT.

    I have 13 cousins on my mom’s side, but only 3 on my dad’s. Including spouses it’s 25 and 5. Including ex-spouses…much larger. I have one cousin who’s on her 4th hubby.

  148. @Dan Hayes

    Because they experience an extreme racial polarity of black and ‘white’, Americans have this fantasy of pristine timeless European nations – most of which are younger than the US, or formed by WW2 – and ‘western’ culture. Rest of the world is more dynamic flux, or a kind of ecology with various niches occupied by whoever comes along to fill them. Napoleon thought islam compatible with republicanism after he conquered Egypt and brought them back to France. Certainly more civilised than Gypsies of any colour. British in India thought Muslims more compatible than weird hindus. Churchill built the London mosque to reward them for fighting for allies in WW1.

    Also if nomadic hunter-gatherers were beaten by settled farmers, has no one noticed that the nomads had their comeback as wave after wave of invaders from the Steppe or the east generally? Often establishing themselves as the elite ruling class, these former nomad cavaliers (Scotch Irish Borderers anyone?) may eventually be the victors in the war of ‘civilisation’. The Whigs were wrong, as are all believers in progress and civilising. (Or do we conquer the nomads by civilising them? Who knows?)

    Finally, who would you rather live next door to? Chavs, Muslims or Gypsies? I’d like to ask Derb this but I think he avoids such questions.

  149. anon[149] • Disclaimer says:

    As JimB pointed out, Gypsies are now a fairly common sight in California. It’s typically a woman panhandling, while holding an infant or two. The ogrish husband is typically nearby. Also suspect a sizeable portion of prostitution is Gypsy women, along with much webcam-type stuff. Native-born meth head women will need to up their game.

    Gypsy child-rearing is so far out-of-whack with Western norms that protective services typically won’t bother. Not much they could do anyway, considering the traits have been bred into them for over a thousand years. The genes likely haven’t changed. But the horse-drawn Wagon has been replaced for a Dodge Caravan.

    It’s like our immigration policies have been explicitly modeled on District 9.

  150. One of the benefits for a poor country joining the EU is that a large fraction of its underclass will emigrate to wealthier countries. For some of those people, it is a chance to make a fresh start without the prejudices they meet at home. For others, it is a chance to teach the citizens of their new home those same prejudices.

  151. El Dato says:
    @Tyrion 2

    You have seen everything when you drive off the highway ramp and there is a gypsy with crutches doing the “unusable X legs” performance making his way through the three lanes of cars waiting at the stop light, demanding money from drivers.

  152. El Dato says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Holocaust-Repairing Germany disagrees!

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zigeunerschnitzel

    Nachdem ein Forum der Sinti und Roma in Hannover die Hersteller von „Zigeunersoßen“ aufgefordert hatte, diese umzubenennen, weil der Begriff diskriminierend sei, entschied sich die Stadt Hannover im Spätsommer 2013, das Gericht künftig in ihren städtischen Kantinen nicht mehr unter der Bezeichnung Zigeunerschnitzel anzubieten, sondern als „Schnitzel Balkan Art“ oder „Schnitzel Budapester Art“. Ein Jahr später nannte der Soziologe Wolfram Stender die zurückliegende öffentliche Berichterstattung „ein Lehrstück darüber, wie schäbig mit der Minderheit der Sinti und Roma auch heute noch umgegangen wird“.

    A gypsy pressure group got the town of Hannover to stop using the term “Gypsy Schnitzel” because that’s discriminatory. Canteens now serve “Balkans-styled Schnitzel” (why no Sebrenica Schnitzel?) or “Budapest Schnitzel” instead.

    Sociologist Wolfram Stender concurs and declares that such mistreatment of Sinti & Roma minorities is shameful.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  153. notanon says:
    @Bill B.

    elderly are their largest targets because they still trust people

    yes

  154. notanon says:
    @VivaLaMigra

    fly tipping

    you’re right it’s dumping trash – usually connected with construction sites or other commercial business dumping their waste somewhere without paying for disposal but with gypsies it probably just means leaving trash behind at their camp sites.

  155. TheJester says:
    @Dan Hayes

    We went on a bus tour of southwest Ireland in April 2018. As we approached a small burg, the tour director said,

    “The town we are approaching in mostly populated by Travelers. They winter here but in the spring, summer, and fall they go on the road throughout Ireland … and now into the EU. They mostly engage in fraud, theft, and other scams.”

    “Once they start buying into a community, the prices go down and people move. Eventually, the Travelers take over. No one else wants to live there.”

    “It’s a problem. We don’t know what to do about it.”

    The phenomena of Irish Travelers is widespread throughout Anglo culture. There are also communities of Travelers wintering in such places as Texas, Indiana, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, and Oklahoma … usually in remote locations.

    http://www.aohflorida.org/irish-travellers-in-the-united-states/

    As the story goes, when the weather breaks the Travelers in the United States descend on urban communities with (primarily) home improvement scams. They have another issue. They marry girls as young as 14-years of age to adult males. They keep to themselves. We get a peek every now and then, but who really knows what goes on?

    https://www.savannahnow.com/news/2016-10-09/irish-traveler-child-marriages-spark-controversy-augusta

    I’m most familiar with the tales about Travelers in Oklahoma because I used to live in Oklahoma. It was interesting to hear similar tales about Travelers in Ireland. Everyone is the same … yet, in spite of this, diversity empowers us all, right?

  156. @william munny

    Agreed on all counts.

    I also worked through the entire History of Rome series. I admire and appreciate Mike Duncan’s efforts — it’s all free, so I do feel a bit churlish registering any complaints — but I don’t think he’s a very good podcaster. He lacks the knack of knowing when to repeat things — especially names — so that listeners can even hope to follow the convolutions of something as complex as Rome’s political history.

    In addition to Patrick Wyman, the most ‘listen-able’ history podcasters I’ve found so far are David Crowther, who does the History of England podcast, and Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History podcast. Both do a good job of getting beyond/beneath the conventional politico-historical flow of names and dates.

    Carlin has been getting pretty frothy around the mouth of late, as he did a series on pain and torture in history that left one worrying just a bit about how Dan himself is doing. He’s an intense and compelling speaker, though, and his approach — focusing hard on specific events or people or peoples in a purely episodic fashion — keeps up the listener’s interest very well.

    Crowther’s England podcast is very enjoyable, but he’s got such a vast swamp of material to work through that he’s almost running in place at this point. He started with the Anglo-Saxon arrivals back in 2010 or so, and he’s now working on Henry VIII, over 250 episodes later. Hey, he’s got less than 500 years of this and that to cover to get caught up to the present!

  157. istevefan says:
    @Almost Missouri

    Thanks.

    BTW, why are you “almost Missouri” and not “Missouri”?

  158. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Lot

    Insofar as you can identify proper “jihadis,” sure. A lot of BDS types are non-Muslim teenagers.

  159. Anonymous[273] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Apparently, the great economist Adam Smith, was kidnapped by gypsies as a boy, and only rescued with great difficulty.

    The idea of kidnapping local children and raising them as gypsies was, it is said, a means of eventually ‘whitening’ the gypsie ‘bloodstock’ so that they could fit in better with the natives.

    The only pity is that the Pikies (Gypsies in UK slang) don’t recapitulate that ancient tradition with the kids of contemporary Economist writers, who after all invited them to the UK.

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  160. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Enough Gypsy women get knocked up by white johns or scam victims they copulate with to further the scam that the bloodline gets whitened up anyway. They don’t have sex with blacks, mesos or other nonwhite non-gypsies generally.

    Almost all Gypsies are really dyslexic. I think many of those who are capable of functioning normally often do leave the gypsy lifestyle and blend in with the rest of prole humanity, meaning that the core of gypsies is really genetically hard core adapted to the life. There’s no fix for them except for everyon to be gypsy-wise and run them off at the first sign of micro-gyppery.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  161. @istevefan

    Just “Missouri” would have been inaccurate.

  162. @perfesser knoitall

    Nomads invading agriculturalist societies and making themselves the new ruling class used to be fairly common: the Manchus, Medes, Aryans, Germans, Ottomans, etc. I can’t think of any cases since the invention of modern firearms gave settled peoples a decisive advantage though.

  163. @Anonymous

    The “present Pontiff” has single handedly obsoleted the old rhetorical question, “Is the Pope Catholic?”

    • LOL: Mr. Rational
  164. @Anonymous

    There’s no fix for them except for everyon to be gypsy-wise

    Sterilization as mandatory punishment for familial habitual criminality.

    • Agree: Anne Lid
  165. anon[315] • Disclaimer says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Hey, maybe it just says something good about The Simpsons

  166. @istevefan

    Perhaps because he lives in Kansas City, Kansas instead of Kansas City Missouri which is right across the river.

  167. @El Dato

    Herr Stender can kiss my anti-gypsite ass … anyway, what about the poor wiener dogs? We should call the dish something more politically correct to avoid offending the pups, or worrying them. I tried some wiener snitzel in Germany, and it seemed like just dried out chicken-fried steak.

  168. Romanian says: • Website
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I’m all for brand protection.

  169. Romanian says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    Those fakers give the professional beggars a bad name. The pros get mutilated to give authentic relief to the conscience of a virtue signalling man. Or rather, they are mutilated when young and they mutilate others in turn when they get older.

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