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Class: Strength vs. Endurance Exercise
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From Pacific Standard in 2014:

HOW THE OTHER HALF LIFTS: WHAT YOUR WORKOUT SAYS ABOUT YOUR SOCIAL CLASS

Why can’t triathletes and weightlifters get along?
DANIEL DUANE JUL 23, 2014

I first heard the term strength sports—referring to football, weightlifting, and any other sport dependent upon sheer muscular force—in my early 40s. I’d spent half a lifetime dedicated to athletics more common among urban liberals like myself—jogging, cycling, swimming, pursuing cardiovascular fitness instead of brute force.

… So I bought a book by a Texas gym owner named Mark Rippetoe titled Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training. …

Walking down the sidewalk, I felt confident. At parties with my wife, I saw men who ran marathons, and they looked gaunt and weak. I could have squashed them.

Soon, however, I suffered a creeping insecurity. Looking into the eyes of a banker with soft hands, I imagined him thinking, You deluded moron, what does muscle have to do with anything?

One day, a skinny triathlete jogged past our house: visor, fancy sunglasses, GPS watch. I caught a look of yearning in my wife’s eyes. That night, we fought and she confessed: She couldn’t help it, she liked me better slender.

Friends came for dinner. A public-interest lawyer, noticing I was bigger, asked what I’d been up to.

“I’m really into lifting weights right now,” I said. “Trying to get strong.”

The lawyer’s wife, a marathoner and family therapist, appeared startled, as if concerned about my emotional state. She looked me in the eye and said, “Why?”

Sociologists, it turns out, have studied these covert athletic biases. Carl Stempel, for example, writing in the International Review for the Sociology of Sport, argues that upper middle class Americans avoid “excessive displays of strength,” viewing the bodybuilder look as vulgar overcompensation for wounded manhood. The so-called dominant classes, Stempel writes—especially those like my friends and myself, richer in fancy degrees than in actual dollars—tend to express dominance through strenuous aerobic sports that display moral character, self-control, and self-development, rather than physical dominance. By chasing pure strength, in other words, packing on all that muscle, I had violated the unspoken prejudices—and dearly held self-definitions—of my social group. …

There have been a lot of Nature/Nurture studies over the years. Generally speaking, Nature wins. But this seems like one where Nurture has a fighting chance: As I’ve been suggesting for quite some time, it shouldn’t be impossible to perform a reasonably random controlled trial of the psychological / political effects of strength versus endurance training without too much self-selection bias.

Methodology: Offer subjects a free personal trainer for 3 months, but don’t let them choose strength or endurance upfront: only recruit people who see either as a good deal worth taking. Start with subjects who are in the middle on the hypothesized dimensions affected by type of exercise.

Or it could be a highbrow reality TV show: each week S. Pinker and N.N. Taleb do each other’s workouts and then debate. Taleb rides Pinker’s bike and Pinker lifts Taleb’s barbell.

Maybe by the end Taleb would be admitting, “You know, Dr. Pinker, you do have some reasonable points,” while Pinker is roaring, “Taleb, your Philistine ancestors were puny and weak girlymen, while I am a son of Samson,” and then trying to smite Taleb with the jawbone of an ass.

 
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  1. Alec says:

    I’d really rather not sacrifice a perfectly good N. N. Taleb for this experiment.

  2. L Woods says:

    Carl Stempel, for example, writing in the International Review for the Sociology of Sport, argues that upper middle class Americans avoid “excessive displays of strength,” viewing the bodybuilder look as vulgar overcompensation for wounded manhood.

    And he’s right. The alt-right/manosphere ‘lift bruh’ circlejerk is as hollow as all of their other pretensions to power and control (gun ownership, marrying a used up carousel rider, etc).

  3. At parties with my wife, I saw men who ran marathons, and they looked gaunt and weak. I could have squashed them.

    I can’t remember where I just read ten reasons not to run a marathon– here, perhaps?– but the final one was the most persuasive: look what it did to Pheidippides.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    , @Anon
  4. …and then trying to smite Taleb with the jawbone of an ass.

    Wait, I thought that belonged to Gladwell, not Pinker.

  5. Twinkie says:

    dominance through strenuous aerobic sports that display moral character, self-control, and self-development, rather than physical dominance.

    Or… you can combine the two and practice combat sports. Practicing something like Judo inculcates moral qualities and also gives the ability to physically dominate others effectively. Plus, it also creates a very strong friendship and bond with training partners – you become like brothers.

    Combat sports are also quite diverse in terms of class – you see IT geeks who are fascinated by the kinetic chess aspect of it and you see bouncers who want to improve their fighting skills. On the mat, what you do outside doesn’t matter – what matters are your ability on the mat and whether you are a good guy/training partner. Whiners and assholes wash out pretty fast.

  6. Strong correlates with brutish correlates with dumb.

    Dumb brute.

    Weak correlates with the opposite using not logic.

    The culture values smart. The smart guy doesn’t have to get his hands dirty or his palms calloused. The guy at the bottom of the pecking order is the unskilled manual laborer. The idea that it might require some skill to get two hundred pounds up in the air using just your body apparently is Klingon or some other alien-sourced concept.

    Rippetoe rules. Drink your milk. 🙂

  7. I don’t do strength or endurance workouts but I could beat all your asses because I want it more. Meanwhile you’ll buck up your wounded manhood by getting another degree. Whatever…

    • LOL: AndrewR
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  8. J.Ross says: • Website

    “I’m really into lifting weights right now,” I said. “Trying to get strong.”

    The lawyer’s wife, a marathoner and family therapist, appeared startled, as if concerned about my emotional state. She looked me in the eye and said, “Why?”

    The set-up for a truly great meme.
    This is the jumping-off point for greater wit than I can presently find, so I will go with “And so I took her drink and set it down on the counter, brought her to the door, scooping up her coat en route, and bid her a good night.”

  9. J.Ross says: • Website

    Maybe by the end Taleb would be admitting that, you know, Dr. Pinker, you do have some reasonable points, while Pinker is roaring, “Taleb, your Philistine ancestors were puny and weak girlymen, while I am a descendant of Samson,” and then trying to smite Taleb with the jawbone of an ass.

    Yeah, we know how that would end, no matter what training head start Pinker would get. But it’s badly designed anyway because Taleb says somewhere that he was once a cardio peasant and then converted to weights because the payoff was so much clearer.

  10. @Twinkie

    AGREED. Judo is a great sport and helpful in self-defense with no weapons involved.

  11. asdf says:

    “Maybe by the end Taleb would be admitting that, you know, Dr. Pinker, you do have some reasonable points, while Pinker is roaring, “Taleb, your Philistine ancestors were puny and weak girlymen, while I am a descendant of Samson,” and then trying to smite Taleb with the jawbone of an ass.”

    I’d watch. Deal me in.

  12. Al Bundy says:

    What is moral or disciplined about distance running? I used to run a lot when I was younger; it’s the most mindless activity you can do. Olympic weightlifting, on the other hand requires tremendous concentration and technique.

    I also don’t understand why some people think weightlifting is impractical. I have to lift heavy things all the time. I’ve never, in the course of a regular day, needed to run 15 miles.

  13. I’d never heard of this Rippenhoe (sic) guy before reading about him here, but his thesis about the most important thing in life is being strong is maybe not dead right, but it’s not far off. A decade ago when I was really into working out, I could punch (pardon the pun) way above my weight in the chick category.

    I’m not sure if it’s a majority, but I can say that the women who like manly men, really like them. Joggers come and go, but a dude with muscle wins (realistically and metaphorically) more often than not.

    • Replies: @SporadicMyrmidon
    , @ATBOTL
  14. Better yet, Pinker and Taleb should commit to a pay-per-view 3 of 5 contest in Chessboxing: http://worldchessboxing.com/.
    I would borrow money to watch that. I’d “borrow” several thousand to bet on Taleb.
    I’d respect Pinker if he waited until after his round 2 defeat to concede.

  15. Sentinel says:

    In the wild, what kind of animal does long distance aerobics?

    Prey animals.

    Predators sprint.

  16. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:

    Question.

    Why are Asian-Indians more likely to keep their original names while East Asians are likely to take on Western names? Is yellow cake blander than white bread and likely to succumb to other culture whereas the brown curries have stronger cultural identity?

    Come to think of it, East Asian ideology is Confucianism, which is about education and status, whereas Hinduism is about unity of blood and spirit. Confucianism is ideological; it’s about gaining knowledge and serving the power, whereas Hinduism is identitarian and about sticking to your karmic thread.

  17. Tiny Duck says:
    @L Woods

    Agreed

    Most right wingers are insecure snowflakes who are terrified of confident women

    • Troll: IHTG
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @L Woods
  18. Anonymous[679] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sentinel

    Aren’t whites more into long distance running, while West Africans prefer sprinting? It’s an observation that Steve has made a few times before, but I don’t know for certain offhand whether or not it’s true.

    • Replies: @duncsbaby
  19. istevefan says:

    Didn’t Steve have a post on how lifting weights made people more politically conservative?

  20. @South Texas Guy

    I see Rippetoe being pushed a lot on more intellectual right wing venues, although this might be entirely Instapundit… I’m really not not sure.
    Here is my question. I am pretty much convinced that strength training is more important than cardiovascular endurance. I am neither very old nor very young, and have had a mixed relationship with “fitness” throughout my life. My question is: why should we not pursue bodyweight fitness as opposed to training with “free weights” or machines?
    From my personal reading, it seems there are many arguments in favor of bodyweight, and I am trying to seriously pursue this. But maybe I have missed something.

  21. Anon[432] • Disclaimer says:

    Duane wrote one of the great surfing memoirs when he was younger.

  22. The last paragraph really made this for me.

  23. have mostly come to the same conclusions. after 30 or so, what’s the point of super high fitness levels, unless you’re a professional athlete. you can do it as a hobby in your 20s, by your 30s, you’ve become that annoying try hard guy. the guy who couldn’t do real sports when it mattered, but now you train hard for endurance stuff nobody cares about.

    Kenny Powers hits the nail on the head

    you don’t have to become a strength athlete, but getting stronger and putting on some muscle, having a strong and healthy back and legs, and being able to lift stuff more easily, which you will do most days, is what you want to do. you can jog a few times a week for 2 or 3 miles to maintain basic fitness, or some other similar cardio activity. you don’t need more than that. also, you’ll be less insecure around other men, since you’ll be weight trained, and most of the time, stronger. you’ll be shocked how much stronger a guy with 1 year of weight training is,versus a guy who never touched a weight. the cardio athletes are surprisingly weak by comparison.

    also, it’s harder to get weight trained. it’s easier to just run, bike, swim, do 5k runs, half marathons, triathlons. that’s less difficult work, and easier to attain. that’s probably part of it. that it’s less difficult to just start jogging off into the distance. correct weight training is harder, more painful, and requires more dedication. becoming some 160 pound skinny guy who runs 5 miles every day is less difficult once you’re in shape, which only takes a few months. and it’s bad for you, long term. you’re not supposed to run 50 miles a week for decades. muscle burns more calories than fat, but also, gaining more muscle burns more calories than trying to run them off.

    being around a lot of athletes, the super endurance guys are wrecked at 40. accumulating a ton of damage from thousands of miles. you should see what some of the lifetime runners look like. goodness.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  24. Anon[432] • Disclaimer says:

    There’s a middle ground that I think trumps both extremes with women: the natural masculine body that has never seen a weight room that workers who do physical labor have, movers, construction workers, forestry workers.

  25. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

    Free weights are more fashionable these days but good machines like Nautlius and MedX, which can be hard to come by in many gyms, are the best because you can really overload the muscles and apply constant tension on them, which you can’t with free weights. Check out David Feather’s channel. He’s 55 years old and collects and uses weight machine pieces and discusses the virtues of machines over free weights.

    • Replies: @Anon
  26. The 24 hour fitness in Berkeley …. All the meat heads were cal professors. Admittedly none of them were ruling class law professors, but still.

  27. Bragging on the internet may be the saddest thing in the world.

    That said, there’s a bit of oblique bragging upthread, and I can’t decide if that’s even sadder or just cleverer than the other kind.

  28. anon[444] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    Agree.
    Karate training doesn’t make you look physically imposing but it sure teaches you how to hurt people. It instills both confidence and humility. Karate people are the most likeable and nicest ruthlessly violent people you will ever meet.

  29. RTP Guy says:

    For all the supposed benefits of powerlifting, it doesn’t appear to have done much for Taleb. He still appears puffy and overfed. Pinker is six years older, but looks five years younger — although, to be fair, some of it is due to the hair. However, doesn’t it, in the end, come down to vanity and who looks better?

    If you’re really serious, the first step is to get a syringe. I ran my first prohormone cycle at 17, and have been off and on (mostly on) since then. I am now 32, and take 200 mg of test per week, and 2 iu human growth hormone a day. Just enough to get that extra edge.

    I myself am gay, but have a very good sense of what heterosexual women desire, having lived for five years in Los Angeles, with many nights spent tending bar. Absent obvious money or industry connections, tall, trim, handsome and a full head of hair beats all. And while that lean, hard look takes time under the bar, it doesn’t require injections or obsessive focus on a 600 pound deadlift — 180 pounds at 6’2”.

    As the great Karl Lagerfeld said, beware short, ugly men. They are mean and want to kill you.

  30. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @SporadicMyrmidon

    Rippetoe includes chin-ups, which are a body weight exercise, in his program. The reason the program isn’t all body weight is because you need more than body weight to drive strength adaptation, IOW, you need a weight where it’s difficult to do 5 reps for one of the main barbell exercises, or 10 reps for an assistance exercise.

    For most people, 10 chin-ups is hard, but 5 body weight squats isn’t. And, to get stronger, you need to add weight, which you can’t really do with body weight (you can add reps, but then your increasing endurance, not strength. And you’re increasing the chance of repetitive stress injuries).

  31. This is a false dichotomy for 95% of people. Unless you are seriously competitive runner and don’t want extra upper body weight, or a serious lifter, and can’t afford to burn too many calories from excessive aerobic exercise, you should do both cardio and weight training.

    I’m closer to 70 than I am to 20. I weigh the same as I do in high school simply by running 5-10 km a few times a week and getting in 2 strength sessions per week. A strong core makes you a faster runner. Aerobic exercise keep off the fat and helps you look more cut.

  32. Anonymous[396] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    Give it a rest already

  33. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @prime noticer

    I had a friend, a very blunt lady of Swiss German ancestry, who took up running for a while in her 40s and joined a local running group. She said later distance running attracted non-athletic people because it required no athletic ability.

    And you’re right that distance runners can accumulate a lot of injuries. Lifters can too, to be fair, but probably not as much if you’re not pushing the envelope.

  34. anon. says:

    A male can lift a hell of a lot of barbells before they would be noticed walking down a sidewalk. I call gross exaggeration,

    What is a lot more common and associated with social class are heavy set working class males who look exceptionally strong. A ‘big and tall’ store kinda guy.

  35. Wilkey says:

    upper middle class Americans avoid “excessive displays of strength,” viewing the bodybuilder look as vulgar overcompensation for wounded manhood.

    Nah. The gap between Peewee Herman and Governator is pretty damn big. It takes a lot of lifting and dieting to look like a musclehead. Muscleheads are (generally speaking) the masculine version of the blonde bimbo who is excessively associated with her looks. The only reason that either manages to look so good is because they’re shallow and havent much else to do with their time.

    Weightlifting boosts your testosterone levels and helps you to feel better and look better, and does those things long before you ever start to look like you spend all your time in the gym. The extra energy it gives you more than pays for 3 hours or so a week spent lifting weights.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
  36. Anonymous[396] • Disclaimer says:
    @SporadicMyrmidon

    I agree with Pinsen, although the catch-22 is that pretty much every person who lifts heavy enough for a decent period of time will develop a bunch of semi-serious chronic injuries as a result. Still, there is something very rewarding in logging your progress and working your way up to more and bigger plates. With that said I’m also become increasingly interested in bodyweight stuff and may start going to that more. “Never Gymless” by Ross Enamait and “Convict Conditioning” are two books that I’ve been recommended a number of times.

    • Replies: @Erik L
    , @SporadicMyrmidon
  37. I don’t see why the two are mutually exclusive. For example, virtually every swimmer today lifts but they do so strategically. They lift so as to strengthen the muscles they will need and not to enter body building contests.

    Swimming is definitely an aerobic sport but the men’s physiques are terrific. They certainly aren’t skinny rails. You don’t realize how big these guys are till you stand next to them. Nathan Adrian stands 6’6″.

    Remember when the American male Olympic water polo team issued a poster of the roster just before one of the Olympics 20 years ago or so? It sold out within hours as women wanted to look at a bevy of bodies who were practically Chippendales but without the looking-at-themselves-in-the-mirror-while-they-workout vanity that characterizes many lifters.

    1968 Yugoslavians:

    Better throw this in for balance:

    Also, every aerobic sport uses interval training and that’s just plain tough, muscle-building work.

    Focusing on extreme marathoners and such is a straw man.

  38. Were the chest expanders and bullworkers of 1980’s lore effective pieces of equipment?

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
    , @Ola
  39. Anon[416] • Disclaimer says:

    Yeah but who looks better with their shirt off?

    There was a study done on what body type is preferred by men and women. (Horrifyingly, the two groups were divided along gender lines). Subjects viewed simple line drawings of body types.

    Notwithstanding the usual caveats about subject recruitment from Western university undergraduate populations, the finding was that women prefer muscular but not too muscular, and men prefer slim but not too slim. Women overestimated how slim men would want them to be, and men overestimated how muscular women would want them to be.

  40. RIP Roger.

  41. The workout turned Pinker’s hair jet black too. Unsurprisingly, he grew a beard once he started lifting. It’s part of the lifting culture.

    • Replies: @Anonym
  42. Twinkie says:
    @Anon

    East Asian ideology is Confucianism, which is about education and status

    Confucianism is hierarchy serving social harmony.

  43. SnakeEyes says:

    Crossfit seems to bridge this gap. It is popular among military and para-military types (police and firemen) yet also white-collar SWPL types (until they injury themselves attempting a ridiculous anagram based workout).

  44. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @L Woods

    marrying a used up carousel rider

    Who advocates this?

    • Replies: @Truth
    , @L Woods
  45. ‘…As I’ve been suggesting for quite some time, it shouldn’t be impossible to perform a reasonably random controlled trial of the psychological / political effects of strength versus endurance training without too much self-selection bias…’

    It’s only marginally relevant, but after a few years running my moving business I became aware I had become very strong — very, very strong. Slugging boxes of books up three flights of stairs several times a week and so on will have that effect.

    Anyway, when I would get into the sort of traffic altercation that sometimes seemed to be a daily concomitant of driving into Berkeley, I would flash on this fantasy where I would seize my interlocutor, announce ‘you make Colin angry,’ and literally throw him into the middle of the intersection.

    I really felt like I could have done it.

    • Replies: @Erik Sieven
  46. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sentinel

    Neither. Both of them sprint most of the time when they run. Prey spend most of their time grazing, and when a predator shows up, they sprint away from the predator. If they jogged away, they’d get caught and eaten. Predators spend most of their time laying about or stalking, and then attack their prey in a quick ambush or sprint. If they jogged towards their prey, they’d never eat. This is one of the arguments Art de Vany makes against jogging and other endurance exercise. He says no animals in the wild do the equivalent of endurance exercise. They mostly spend their time laying about, doing the equivalent of walking, and at infrequent times, sprinting out of necessity. He says we should emulate these movement patterns found in nature among animals and not do endurance exercise. However, humans in the wild are unique in being the only animals to do the equivalent of jogging or endurance exercise naturally. Since humans cannot outrun large game, and walking is too slow, humans often hunted game by tracking them over very long distances, basically jogging along the way and moving at a pace between walking and sprinting, until the game became tired enough or unaware of its human predators closing in and the humans moved in close enough for the kill with their weapons and tools. There are Indian tribes still around that are know for their long distance running.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  47. @Twinkie

    I see some differences in professional status among martial artists. When I did aikido, the members skewed towards white collar women and quite a few women. Doing boxing or kickboxing, it is mostly blue collar men. Few women.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Twinkie
    , @Erik Sieven
  48. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @ThreeCranes

    Focusing on extremes is a good way to clarify differences. Lifting for strength is anabolic, while running for distance is catabolic, so they work at cross-purposes. Plus, there are recovery considerations for strength training. Rippetoe’s not against doing conditioning, if you want to, but he generally recommends intervals of something without an eccentric component that adds to soreness. So, exercise bikes, rowing machines, Prowler sled pushing, that sort of thing.

    I used to do the sled on upper body days, when I tried to lift 4x per week. Now I am for 2x per week, alternating sets of bench and dead lift on one day, and press and squats on the other, and those workouts have an aerobic component as is.

    • Replies: @Seth Largo
  49. @L Woods

    ‘And he’s right. The alt-right/manosphere ‘lift bruh’ circlejerk is as hollow as all of their other pretensions to power and control (gun ownership, marrying a used up carousel rider, etc).’

    This opposes to the obvious utility and manifest good sense of devoting a considerable part of your available free time to running in circles.

    • Replies: @L Woods
  50. tsotha says:

    I always figured this was a question of where you are in life. As a guy, once you get to your mid 30s, assuming you don’t use PEDs, the amount of effort to maintain a lot of muscle mass goes way up. Most of the guys I know who lifted seriously when we were young transitioned to marathons or triathalons in middle-age.

    • Replies: @jon
    , @Wilkey
    , @GU
    , @Ola
  51. @NJ Transit Commuter

    ‘I’m closer to 70 than I am to 20. I weigh the same as I do in high school simply by running 5-10 km a few times a week and getting in 2 strength sessions per week. A strong core makes you a faster runner. Aerobic exercise keep off the fat and helps you look more cut.’

    My strategy (which is working out great) was to buy a house built in 1912 that needs a lot of work.

    I usually work in four trips up and down the stairs to get whatever before I’ve even finished my morning coffee. Then typically, doing some work in the attic involves three or four trips back and forth to the basement to get whatever I’ve forgotten.

    I joked when we bought this house that it was going to add five years to my life. I’m beginning to suspect that may turn out to be entirely true. I can’t stand objectless exercise. But tell me to shift and stack a lot of firewood, and I’ve got no problem.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  52. @Tiny Duck

    ‘Agreed

    Most right wingers are insecure snowflakes who are terrified of confident women’

    You seem to be a confident woman, but I’m not terrified of you.

    • Agree: ic1000
  53. @Henry's Cat

    Were the chest expanders and bullworkers of 1980′s lore effective pieces of equipment?

    More like 1950s and 1960s lore.

    I dunno. When I was 14 a friend, at the end of 9th grade, got one of those bullworker spring isometric compression workout things He was pretty ripped by the end of the summer, by the standards of those days.

    • Replies: @Captain Tripps
  54. @miss marple

    ‘I don’t do strength or endurance workouts but I could beat all your asses because I want it more…’

    This was more or less the theory that led the Japanese to enter World War Two.

    Don’t count on it.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
  55. @Anonymous

    ‘…Since humans cannot outrun large game, and walking is too slow, humans often hunted game by tracking them over very long distances, basically jogging along the way and moving at a pace between walking and sprinting, until the game became tired enough or unaware of its human predators closing in and the humans moved in close enough for the kill with their weapons and tools…’

    One common pattern is to wound the prey, then follow it until it collapses from weakness and loss of blood.

    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
  56. Anonym says:
    @PiltdownMan

    And thence turned into Barry Gibb.

  57. @Reg Cæsar

    Pheidippides reputedly ran 240km on the 2 days prior to his run from Marathon to Athens … a case of Classical overtraining.

    I do wonder if his Mediterranean diet kept him close enough to or in a ketogenic state to allow him do do that much running without hitting the wall earlier on.

  58. prosa123 says:

    Here’s a very hardcore weight trainer expressing his political views on Donald Trump. Caution: bad words galore.

  59. Anon[114] • Disclaimer says:

    Video at 22:35. Stuff about Penthouse and Vaseline. Truth to what Ford says. I wondered why Jewish kids in grammar school had stashes and stashes of skin mags. Their parents supplied them with that stuff. Did a kind of Freudianism take over Jewish life?

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
  60. Amasius says:

    The world’s smartest man Chris Langan

    https://www.theburningplatform.com/2018/05/24/what-does-the-worlds-smartest-man-think-of-identity-politics/

    is also an avid weightlifter. His head circumference (25.5″) is one inch greater than mine.

    I lift, too, but I’m not nearly as strong as he is.

  61. Anon[114] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    strenuous aerobic sports that display moral character, self-control, and self-development

    ???

    Btw, lots of people do both.

  62. Anon[114] • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @Twinkie

    Practicing something like Judo inculcates moral qualities

    ???

    Moral qualities?

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  63. Anon[114] • Disclaimer says:
    @White Guy In Japan

    Doing boxing or kickboxing, it is mostly blue collar men.

    It should be done only by those who can afford to lose brain cells.

  64. @Anon

    My impression is that it is primarily due to how easy it is to pronounce given first names. I think Indian-Indians and Pakistanis have a leg up in this regard. Come to think of it, I’ve only known one indian with a ‘white’ first name, and that was the nickname Butch. Lots of slanty eyes, however, I’ve known by Steve, Diane, Robert, Susan, etc.

    • Replies: @Anon
  65. Anonym says:
    @RTP Guy

    As the great Karl Lagerfeld said, beware short, ugly men. They are mean and want to kill you.

    Yes. If you thought the third Reich was pretty short and homicidal, check out this Reich. May he reach a thousand millimeters.

    Btw the first image search to yield a full body shot was Breitbart, god bless ’em.

  66. Anon[404] • Disclaimer says:
    @RTP Guy

    As the great Karl Lagerfeld said, beware short, ugly men. They are mean and want to kill you.

    Karl Lagerfeld, I love that guy. This is my favorite:

  67. Anon[114] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sentinel

    Predators sprint.

    Wolves can stalk and pursue for long distances. Cats are all about the sprint.

    Rabbits escape mainly by darting left and right.

    I guess the best way to hunt is by swooping down like a hawk.

    • Replies: @Sentinel
  68. @RTP Guy

    “Absent obvious money or industry connections, tall, trim, handsome and a full head of hair beats all. And while that lean, hard look takes time under the bar, it doesn’t require injections or obsessive focus on a 600 pound deadlift — 180 pounds at 6’2”.
    As the great Karl Lagerfeld said, beware short, ugly men. They are mean and want to kill you.”

    Astute observation. I would throw in that having the gift of gab will make up for a deficiency in one of the physical qualities you’ve listed.

  69. Anon[372] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    machines like Nautlius

    These only allow movement in one plane. We’ve moved on from the 80’s, geez.

  70. @RTP Guy

    But look at Taleb’s Twitter feed: he eats tons of pasta, bread, and wine. That’s why he looks puffy.

  71. Sentinel says:
    @SporadicMyrmidon

    I mostly agree. I’ve done a lot of bench presses in my time and they’re pretty useless. Squats, deadlifts, power cleans, clean & jerk, and snatch are all good though. Explosive lifts, unsupported by a bench or chair.

    Bodyweight calisthenics me would kick bench-pressing me’s ass. Easily.

  72. Anon[114] • Disclaimer says:

    Hey, Ricky Boy is back… LOL

  73. @ThreeCranes

    I had a book on athletic programming that classed swimming with wrestling, judo, and other sports that combine power and endurance elements. I don’t know if it’s true any more, but swimmers used to be overtrained–the result of mistakenly thinking swimming was akin to aerobic sports like running because it is a race.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    , @Ola
  74. jon says:
    @tsotha

    the amount of effort to maintain a lot of muscle mass goes way up … transitioned to marathons or triathalons in middle-age

    Guess I don’t know much about marathon or triathlon training, I would have assumed they take a ton of time to train for. With lifting, you can maintain a pretty decent physique and level of strength with just 3–4 short workouts a week.

    • Replies: @psmith
    , @International Jew
  75. Twinkie says:
    @White Guy In Japan

    When I did aikido, the members skewed towards white collar women and quite a few women. Doing boxing or kickboxing, it is mostly blue collar men. Few women.

    Aikido is essentially choreographed partnership dancing, so it will attract a certain type of people. There stereotype is usually pony-tailed, unathletic hippie who likes to dress up in Hakama and opine on (Japanese) philosophy.

    There are many women doing boxing or kickboxing today, but few do so seriously (spar regularly, which is where you get the brain trauma). Boxing has gone upscale, by the way. Recently there was an article in the Washington Post about the disappearance of the gritty slum (read black) gyms and the emergence of upscale chains of (white) boxing gyms in hip areas, including the gentrified parts of D.C.

    There are basically two kinds of boxing or kickboxing gyms – those that have “meat days” and those that do not. They have vastly different demographics.

    Where you find a random mix of all kinds of people from all walks of life is usually something like Judo and (Brazilian) Jujutsu. At my Judo club, we have everyone from former Olympians to IT guys to lawyers to surgeons. At my Jujutsu school, again, there is everyone from world-class competitors to former professional athletes to soccer moms off the street and everyone in-between.

  76. Sentinel says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    To get useful strength — useful for something other than lifts themselves — you need strong assistors, properly coordinated with the major muscles by the nervous system. Most ostensible strength training falls short.

    Force = mass * acceleration. So to get stronger you can add resistive mass OR move faster.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Dave Pinsen
  77. @NJ Transit Commuter

    Agree that both are best, but a single 45-minute weights (feeble ones) session each week (combined with losing a stone and a lot of walking) dropped my blood pressure enough that I’m off the tablets.

    Ironically I damaged a leg doing two successive days of walking 16 miles over mountains, can’t squat til the leg is recovered (maybe six months, seem to have both plantar fasciitis and popliteus damage), and the blood pressure is creeping back up.

  78. Twinkie says:
    @Anon

    Moral qualities?

    The founder of Judo, Dr. Kano Jigoro, specified two mottos for Judo:

    1. 自他共栄 (“Jita-Kyoei”): mutual welfare and benefit.

    2. 精力善用 (“Seiryoku-Zenyo”) maximum efficiency (or maximum result with minimum effort).

    Like many other martial arts, Judo inculcates qualities such as self-control and -restraint, perseverance, decisiveness, consideration for others, and so forth. You are taught to overcome difficulties and strive for perfection, but always with honorable intentions and conduct. E.g.

    Unlike in more commercialized combat sports, unsportman-like conduct in Judo competitions is severely sanctioned, with penalties ranging from loss of match to expulsion from the tournament to lifetime bans.

    A couple of years ago, at a world-class tournament a competitor threw his opponent for Ippon (full point – total victory) and then celebrated by making a groin thrusting gesture toward his downed opponent. He immediately received Hansoku-make and forfeited the match.

    Even gamesmanship and stalling/passivity are penalized with Shido and an accumulation of Shido can lead to defeat. See an unusual result of this: https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/26/sport/dusseldorf-grand-slam-judo-double-disqualification-two-silver-medals-intl/index.html

    • Replies: @Sentinel
    , @Anon
  79. DFH says:

    Is there anything more pointless and gay than long-distance aerobics?

    • Replies: @midtown
    , @Truth
  80. Sentinel says:
    @Anon

    Best is standing in the stream and pouncing on the salmon.

    • Replies: @Anon
  81. Twinkie says:
    @Sentinel

    To get useful strength — useful for something other than lifts themselves — you need strong assistors, properly coordinated with the major muscles by the nervous system. Most ostensible strength training falls short.

    A couple of decades ago, Pavel Tsatsouline taught me a nifty thing to do – one arm, standing overhead lift with bar and barbells. Makes your stabilization muscles work like crazy and gives you excellent functional strength. You can achieve similar results with kettlebells for other types of movements as well.

    Force = mass * acceleration. So to get stronger you can add resistive mass OR move faster.

    Moving fast is great for “simulating” lifting greater weight without actually putting the strain of heavier weights on the joints. It’s also excellent for developing that explosive power you need in a lot of sports (certainly in combat sports). It’s good to do lower weights faster most days and then utilize your max weights less often (just like sparring – you want to go 70-80% intensity for most days of sparring to reduce wear and tear – and brain damage if you are striking – and then save the kill-or-be-killed intensity, full-on kicks and power punches to the head for the odd meat days).

    The great thing about sparring in Judo or Jujutsu is that, aside from making your own movements, you are manhandling another (resisting) human being in a very dynamic fashion. Doing that regularly gives you outstanding functional strength. Doesn’t look too bad either:

    Even in the old days:

  82. Sentinel says:
    @Twinkie

    I can hardly wait for the first Serena Williams of Judo.

  83. duncsbaby says:
    @Anonymous

    The best long distance runners in the world are East African.

  84. Hoyos says:

    Tom Wolfe write about this exact thing as I recall if I could only find the old article.

    I would also like to see the option in your experiment for some to choose “both”; exercise options that incorporate elements of strength and endurance, like calisthenics, HIIT etc. just to see who chooses that.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  85. Anon[114] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    then celebrated by making a groin thrusting gesture toward his downed opponent.

    Who did that?

    Unlike in more commercialized combat sports, unsportman-like conduct in Judo competitions is severely sanctioned, with penalties ranging from loss of match to expulsion from the tournament to lifetime bans.

    This fosters sportsmanship but favors the well-behaved inferior athlete over the less well-behaved superior athlete. Is that really ethical? In a way, but in favoring form over content, it can snub the best in favor of the inferior. Salieri had more class than Mozart(in AMADEUS) but Mozart was the true master. Didn’t East Asia suppress much ‘ill-mannered’ brilliance and originality by overly stressing correct form and manners? If Ali misbehaves in the ring and is disqualified and the far inferior fighter is declared the winner, it seems both ethical and unethical.

    I see the need for rules, and in the West, black behavior has degraded sportsmanship. But being overly anal about it can lead to suppression of talent that is sometimes a bit unruly.

    Like many other martial arts, Judo inculcates qualities such as self-control and -restraint, perseverance, decisiveness, consideration for others, and so forth. You are taught to overcome difficulties and strive for perfection, but always with honorable intentions and conduct. E.g.

    Then why were the guys disqualified at Dusseldorf? The ‘passive’ opponents were showing self-restraint and mutual consideration.

    • Replies: @Scott Locklin
  86. Chinese Researchers Use Genetic Modification to Make Buff Beagles
    Chinese scientists have created a genetically modified beagle that has roughly twice the muscle mass of an ordinary one.

  87. @Hoyos

    This Daniel Duane writer wrote a well-regarded memoir about taking a year off from work to surf.

    My assumption is that surfers tend to be in pretty good all around shape: e.g., that video I posted below with New Yorker writer William Finnegan talking about Kelly Slater’s wave machine: Finnegan is 66 years old.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
  88. AndrewR says:
    @L Woods

    Uh… What? One of the most basic aspects of redpilling is learning to not marry “used up carousel riders.”

    I do agree that, while strength training is an important aspect of fitness, many of the manosphere boys put too much emphasis on it. r/theredpill is basically “lift more and bang more sluts.”

  89. From the standpoint of actual long term health, I suspect reasonable strength training makes for a better life. Not the over the top stuff that is dangerous. But enough to keep toned and put on a little muscle (good for bones, heart, etc).

    Endurance exercise, in moderation, is probably good, but all the people I know who run marathons injure themselves. I don’t see most of them doing that well when elderly.

    Maybe moderation really is the key?

  90. I am 71 and have done both — weight lifting and running (marathons) — for decades. Most of my male friends of my age are now broken down with the various age-related afflictions, undergoing by-passes, knee replacements, laminectomies, prostate surgery, etc. etc. etc. I look 15 years younger than my age, and recently spared with a former professional boxer (although he was kind). Most of the credit goes to strength training.

    • Replies: @Erik L
    , @Truth
  91. Dividualist says: • Website

    My prediction is that the kind of people who choose this or that type of exercise has a larger effect than the effect of the exercise itself.

    There is a half-joke going on in more based circled in Germany saying “If all the immigrants go to fitness and all the Germans go to wellness, sooner or later there will be a problem…” wellness here does not mean endurance exercise, more like just a health spa. At any rate, it is very visible that nearly every man lifting hard in Germany is either brown skinned or talks a Slavic language. Native Germans are not really that endurance oriented, but nevertheless are more likely to use some kind of a side abs machine than to bench press 120 kg. The runners don’t go to gym, they run on the street but they are almost all white.

    Clearly, if there is an ethnic difference in exercise choice, it cannot be caused by the exercise itself. And yes, it correlates to Germans generally behaving classy, somehow the real proles have disappeared, tend to be liberal, globalist and not very masculine, while immigrants tend to be ethnocentric, have working-class style (loud, wearing gold etc.), and be more masculine. Where did the white proles go? This is one of the mysteries of Western Europe. Britain has them. America has them. But “trashy” whites very much disappeared from Germany, for example.

    I am a prole in a cultural sense, mostly because I was born on the wring side of the Hajnal Curtain. For me the idea that part of the appeal in having muscles is to look a bit scary was entirely normal. This is why I am sort of sceptical of Rippetoe-fandom replacing classical body building with power lifting. “Beware of that guy, look at the size of his thighs and glutes” said nobody ever. It is the biceps that sends that signal…

    This really all comes from the government will protect you vs. you have to protect yourself class difference…

  92. Anon[114] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sentinel

    Best is standing in the stream and pouncing on the salmon.

    Or lie around like a snake and strike when an animal ambles near.

  93. I think weight training is a big delusion. What matters for status is natural strength or genetic potential for strength. Weight training does not make somebody “stronger” but only “better trained”. That’s why intense strength training is a waste of time for most people in my opinion. Though moderate strength training is of course a good thing for health reasons and for aesthetics.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
  94. @PiltdownMan

    Wow…Jerry Seinfeld looks a LOT different than he used to…

  95. @NJ Transit Commuter

    This. Like you, I do both (yes, Dave Pinsen, I know they work at cross purposes; you reminded me a few years ago). My resting heart rate since I began this lifestyle a decade ago (when my doctor said I had hypertension) is now around 55, and I’ve brought my weight down from 200 to 170 and maintained it in a 5-7 pound range there. But that is easy to do once your body adjusts to less calorie intake (takes about a week; reduce your meal portions, stop in between meal snacks unless fresh fruit; avoid too much pasta/bread which is easy for me since I’m gluten-sensitive). I lift 2-3 times per week and run/swim 2-3 times per week. I like getting into an aerobic groove and letting my mind focus on my topics of interest (helps me take new and different angles of analysis since I break down specific factual observations/data and approach them from another vantage point). Strength training, as indicated by others in this thread, requires more concentration and focus to maintain appropriate technique and avoid overstress/injury; that’s what I like about it, the planning, and focused execution. Both types of exercise require some level of planning, dedication, concentration, and time preference; all good qualities for living a healthy, fun life…

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
  96. Anon[114] • Disclaimer says:
    @South Texas Guy

    Come to think of it, I’ve only known one indian with a ‘white’ first name, and that was the nickname Butch.

    Butch Patel?

  97. @L Woods

    Tiny Duck how did you hack L Woods account?

  98. I used to run marathons, but ran out of time, with also a lot of wear n tear on the knees. The elderly chinese sinseh I went to managed to alleviate the sharp pain in my right knee, and advised against running too much.

    Since having kids, I really don’t have time to devote to hours of running every week. It also doesn’t help with the strength requirements of my military reserve fitness tests.

    Instead, i find HIIT intervals (with 200, 400, n 600m variations) n bodyweight strength training to be the most efficient training regime, with 2.4-4km longer runs occasionally. Together with intermittent fasting (doing the 16:8 variant) and reduced carbo, I’m fitter than ever before.

    The exercises in Convict Conditioning are great. In addition to those, I do situps, parallel bar situps, dragon flags, and planks. I always do my bodyweight training after HIIT cardio.

  99. Ola says: • Website
    @Henry's Cat

    The Bullworker is more versatile than the chest expander as it allows for both pushing and pulling. If you know what you’re doing (and add some straps to it) you can train most muscles with it and even train progressively by changing the levers to vary resistance.

    It is a lot less effective than a barbell and pull-up bar but portable and can come in handy when injured. At the moment I have injured my: right wrist, both brachialis and right supraspintus, making it impossible to do my regular weight training. In the meantime I use my old bullworker to maintain muscle mass. I have done so successfully in the past too. I’ll lose some muscle, but much less than I would have otherwise.

    (I have doubled up on my cardio too of course – injuries should be exploited).

  100. dvorak says:

    The main difference is that strength training involves moderate/high pain on workout days and on rest days. Aerobic training is basically pleasurable – even being winded doesn’t hurt much at all.

    What kind of person would seek out pain? A hard person, a fascist. Thus the alarmed look from the Eloi.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
  101. @Chrisnonymous

    “..classed swimming with wrestling, judo..”

    Makes sense to me as I enjoyed and was good at all three. Hard swimming really helped my mat work. It gives great overall body strength.

    And it wouldn’t surprise me if you’re correct in saying that formerly, swimmers overtrained. They used to swim long miles daily.

    But more in keeping with Steve’s talking about sports that are acceptable class markers, swimming is one that even Jews find permissible and encourage their kids to take up. There have been some great Jewish swimmers, not the least of whom was Spitz. But for my money Jason Lezak’s clutch, comeback performance in the final leg of the men’s 4 x 100 freestyle relay at the Bejing Olympics still takes the cake for sheer guts and heart. All the odds were against him.

    I’ve put this up before but there’s no harm in posting it again.

  102. midtown says:
    @SporadicMyrmidon

    Bodyweight training isn’t bad, especially for someone out of shape and just getting started. I would recommend using a TRX/suspension device to be able to do BW pulling exercises. At some point, though, you get good enough to where BW exercises become more muscular endurance than strength. BW exercises are especially good for circuits if you wish to test your cardio endurance.

    Bottom line: a mix of bodyweight exercises with classic strength exercises would be a good program for many people.

  103. Pericles says:
    @Colin Wright

    My experience too; having a garden helps keeping the general conditioning up.

  104. midtown says:
    @DFH

    Agreed. And remember, the cross country team will have more serious injuries* per capita than the football team.

    *Defined as injuries that cause the athlete to miss events or substantially change their training.

  105. Funny, I never went in for either. Exercise for exercise’s sake has never stirred me. Instead, I play squash 2 or 3 times a week, walk, briskly, about a mile each way to and from work, and get in some tennis in the nice weather. It’s more companionable, there’s a purpose, strategy, and a win/lose, make it to work/make it home outcome each time.

  106. Wilkey says:
    @tsotha

    Aa a guy, once you get to your mid 30s, assuming you don’t use PEDs, the amount of effort to maintain a lot of muscle mass goes way up. Most of the guys I know who lifted seriously when we were young transitioned to marathons or triathalons in middle-age.

    Which is exactly why you want to be lifting after your mid-30s. Your body starts losing muscle mass at that age (ca. 1% a year). Lift and you can prevent muscle loss and keep your testosterone levels up. You may not be able to look like a bodybuilder, but for most men that isn’t the goal.

  107. @Steve Sailer

    Surfers always looked buffed. Moving against the constant resistance of water is surprisingly strenuous. The harder you move the harder it resists, so it’s easy to dial in your level of workout.

    A competitive freestyler is doing the equivalent of a one armed pull up/push up with each stroke. Readers shouldn’t confuse casual swimming with what’s going on in the bodies of real swimmers.

  108. Top 10 Funniest iSteve Posts.

    Anecdotally, my latent conservative tendencies in my early twenties grew to explicit conservative tendencies by my late twenties and early thirties. Active weightlifting corresponds with those years. (But then, I also got married, a real job, etc. . . )

  109. Erik L says:
    @Anonymous

    pretty much everyone who reaches the age of 40 will develop a bunch of semi-serious chronic injuries 🙂

  110. Erik L says:
    @Stephen Paul Foster

    Which exercise saved your prostate? That’s the one for me

  111. psmith says:
    @jon

    Maintaining is a lot easier than improving, pretty much entirely regardless of sport.

  112. @Colin Wright

    I’m partial to the Komodo dragon method: jump out of the bushes and bite your prey on the leg with your filthy mouth. Ten days later, you can administer the coup de grace on your febrile, infirm victim.

    Sharon Stone apparently bought her husband some zoo visit where he ended up getting bitten by a Komodo and had to have his foot amputated. Happy birthday, honey!

    • LOL: Johann Ricke
  113. @Dave Pinsen

    Plus, there are recovery considerations for strength training.

    This is an important lesson, and one that unfortunately took me a long time to learn. Doing a light jog for a few days instead of heading to the weight room feels wrong in the moment, but it pays dividends when you do return to the weights.

    And you’re right about the aerobic component to some weightlifting movements, particularly squats and deadlifts. My heart rate gets much higher at the squat rack than on the treadmill.

  114. @istevefan

    Was that the one about how conservatives lift while liberal run?

    I should have said this then, but it seems clear to me that the real reason for this dichotomy is metaphysical. Running is attempting to slip the surly bonds of earth. Lifting is engaging with and overcoming the deadweight of incarnation.

    Liberals want to sidestep and avoid the harsh realities of life. Conservatives want to face them and defeat them.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
  115. I became obsessed with strength training in my late teens in part because I was ridiculously skinny (about 140 lbs on my 6’2” frame). Eventually I did bulk up. I didn’t help my confidence quite as much as I had hoped. One major benefit was that it seemed to cure me of slouching, and I had been a horrible sloucher as a teenager. These days, I am between 225-230 and can barely fit into a 36” waist size. While I could stand to lose a few pounds around the midsection my wife has told me to be careful with that, because she likes me large. She told me I’d better not end up like my brother, who she said looks like a concentration camp victim. He’s about 6’3” 170 lbs and is more into cardio. Incidentally, I no longer do the heavy free weight lifting I did in my youth. These days I do mostly handlebar pushups, which are a good way to maintain strength and mass, as well as get a good cardio workout if done properly.

  116. @Anon

    The Indians here that I know who are Christians have given their children traditional Western names… Josh, Ron, Joanna… But the secular Hindus all stick with the unpronounceable.

    Westernized Chinese all go with Anglo names. The immigrant kids adopt nicknames that people can actually say.

    If I were to move to another country with a different language, I would pick a name that would work in multiple languages, or do two names: one in English, one in the local language.

    Now someone explain the black names to me. There’s a black woman at my gym named Wanee.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  117. Truth says:
    @L Woods

    The alt-right/manosphere ‘lift bruh’ circlejerk is as hollow as all of their other pretensions to power… marrying a used up carousel rider.

    Or, as we used to call it, just “marrying”.

    • LOL: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @ben tillman
  118. Truth says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    The question is, “who fetishizes this?”

    The answer is; “Incels who just got yelled at by their bosses.”

  119. Truth says:
    @Stephen Paul Foster

    I am 71 and… recently spared with a former professional boxer (although he was kind).

    Oh so how is Karl Mildenberger’s left hand nowadays?

  120. L Woods says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    Anyone advocating marriage to a Western woman over the age of 20, really. Mind you, this isn’t really important: I’ve had two (and counting) childhood friends from my petite bourgeoise evangelical bubble get divorced/cheated on by their ostensibly religious and chaste wives whom they married in their early twenties. What really matters is the social structures (or lack thereof) that permit and promote their universal behavior (and needless to say, the pathetic Church of today isn’t stepping up).

  121. GU says:

    Pinker is actually not the best choice for the faggy endurance side of things. He actually has a jawline, a fairly deep voice, and a somewhat masculine comportment for a scholar these days. And he has often called out the left on their bs (e.g., The Blank Slate). Pinker isn’t soyed enough to really make the experiment interesting.

  122. L Woods says:
    @Colin Wright

    My issue isn’t with what they do, so much as the extent to which they drink their own kool aid by swaggering around and imaging that their creatine muscles actually make them some kind of badass. In reality, they’re as hopelessly powerless as the rest of us — indeed, by devoting so much of their time and energy to peacocking, they’re even bigger saps.

  123. L Woods says:
    @Tiny Duck

    I realize you’re merely caricaturizing the leftist view, but decades and decades of tough guy talk on the right has led exactly nowhere but the dismal state we find ourselves presently. Whitey gets older and more outnumbered every day, but he still blusters about bc ‘muh guns’ and (in the case of the younger ones) ‘muh deadlifts.’ Meanwhile, the greatest electoral reverse for the establishment in living memory has accomplished nothing, and the temperature in the pot just gets hotter and hotter.

  124. GU says:
    @tsotha

    Yeah, gonna have to disagree, it’s really not so difficult to *maintain* muscle mass (it is much harder to grow it). And it’s the exact opposite with PEDs: if you used, you are likely to see a big decline at older ages, whereas naturals have a much easier time holding on to their muscle mass.

  125. @ThreeCranes

    These girls whiteness is triggering–made me angry.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
  126. @Almost Missouri

    In the old days, they would have said that lifters were earth and fire while runners were air and water.

    • Replies: @OFWHAP
  127. BB753 says:
    @Anon

    South Indian’s names and surnames are a marker of status. Of caste. Doing away with your fancy Brahmin name is too much of a sacrifice for most of them.

  128. Ola says:
    @Chrisnonymous

    Most sports combine power and endurance. Swimming is very much an aerobic sport as even the shortest distance, 50m, lasts for more than 20 seconds. I’ve known a lot of swimmers and as a track & field athlete (jumps, sprint) I was always humiliated by them in races longer than 800m.

    It is true that swimmers used to train excessively long hours (and I am sure many still do) but my impression is that there is more focus on strength nowadays – at least for the 50m and 100m.

  129. @Anon

    There’s a middle ground that I think trumps both extremes with women: the natural masculine body that has never seen a weight room that workers who do physical labor have, movers, construction workers, forestry workers.

    That physique usually doesn’t make it to the late 20s, when the toll of the calorie dense foods and beer swilling put a big fat belly right on the middle of it.

    Most construction guys are husky types unless they put extra effort into maintaining a physical shape.

    • Replies: @Anon
  130. Ola says: • Website
    @tsotha

    Doesn’t take much effort at all if you’re healthy and free of injuries. Even at age 50 you don’t need PEDs to maintain the muscle mass of your prime. Maintaining a slim waistline, on the other hand, is a little harder. But still a lot less hard than training for a marathon.

    That said, if you have been lifting seriously all your life, you might have accumulated a lot of injuries that make it hard to lift at the level required for maintenance. Shifting focus to endurance training then is of course understandable.

    Also, fat guys who have just been chasing numbers on the big lifts with no concern for athleticism and relative strength, tend to shift their focus for health reasons as they get older.

  131. Bodybuilding is ridiculous and you know it.

  132. RH says:

    The fact that the author thinks that football is a “brute force” sport tells me that he never played the game and very likely never watched a football team practicing. Certainly, “brute force” is a factor in some positions; but for others (the ones I played) speed, quickness, agility and ellusiveness are what it is all about.

  133. The quoted piece seems to dovetail with those studies showing that mesomorph men tend towards right wing politics.

    Our political realignment really is creating an early stage Eloi and Morlock divide in the human race.

    As someone who was hit hard and early by puberty with a naturally mesomorph build from that time forward the reactions in the original piece ring true to me vis a vis the tastes of women in the professional classes. The reality at a certain stratum is the opposite of the classic Charles Atlas advertisements in comic books.

    I don’t think I had quite conceived it as a perception that a thick, muscular build is “vulgar” however.

    I wonder if this is a purely American phenomenon. In the Commonwealth nations, the private schoolboys play rugby rather than soccer.

    • Replies: @prosa123
  134. @L Woods

    Carl Stempel, for example, writing in the International Review for the Sociology of Sport, argues that upper middle class Americans avoid “excessive displays of strength,” viewing the bodybuilder look as vulgar overcompensation for wounded manhood.

    And he’s right. The alt-right/manosphere ‘lift bruh’ circlejerk is as hollow as all of their other pretensions to power and control (gun ownership, marrying a used up carousel rider, etc).

    He’s right about the “body-builder look”, and he’s wrong about the “displays of strength” unless you want to say that the use of “excessive” makes it a tautology.

    Upper middle class Americans, as youngsters, are the most likely to do strength training. It’s hard to find time when you have a job and children, but this guy is way off base.

  135. Fmillik says:

    I have done both, but have spent more time lifting heavy weights than doing marathons.

    Ultimately, my gym has drop-in childcare and I hate the treadmill, so lifting it is. After my wife had our second kid, I ran one last marathon and I felt like a jackass leaving my wife to do all the childcare while I was running for hours by myself every weekend.

    When my kids get older I will probably run or bike long distances again if they were interested.

    So kids may be connected to which you do.

  136. @L Woods

    Carl Stempel, for example, writing in the International Review for the Sociology of Sport, argues that upper middle class Americans avoid “excessive displays of strength,” viewing the bodybuilder look as vulgar overcompensation for wounded manhood.

    And he’s right. The alt-right/manosphere ‘lift bruh’ circlejerk is as hollow as all of their other pretensions to power and control (gun ownership, marrying a used up carousel rider, etc).

    He’s right about the “body-builder look”, and he’s wrong about the “displays of strength” unless you want to say that the use of “excessive” makes it a tautology.

    Upper middle class Americans, as youngsters, are the most likely to do strength training. It’s hard to find time when you have a job and children, but this guy is way off base.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
  137. One day, a skinny triathlete jogged past our house: visor, fancy sunglasses, GPS watch. I caught a look of yearning in my wife’s eyes. That night, we fought and she confessed: She couldn’t help it, she liked me better slender.

    Proper husband response: “Yeah, well I liked you better younger and hotter.”
    If this guy is middle aged or older and yet noticeably muscular, the wife should shut up.

    It’s not that she liked him better skinny. She’s worried that other women will like him muscular. She’s not satisfied with her own looks but tries to make it about her being dissatisfied with his looks.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
  138. @Seth Largo

    An aerobic component can easily be added to any weightlifting or strength exercise. I usually do one set of reps until failure, wait 15 seconds, do 2nd set until failure, wait another 15 seconds, and so on, until I can barely do one rep. That will really get the heart pumping.

  139. @RH

    The fact that the author thinks that football is a “brute force” sport tells me that he never played the game and very likely never watched a football team practicing. Certainly, “brute force” is a factor in some positions; but for others (the ones I played) speed, quickness, agility and ellusiveness are what it is all about.

    I thought much the same thing, except even the “brute force” positions are full of real athletes who just happen to be very large men.

    I’ve been out on the town and run into some of the local NFL team’s offensive linemen. Most people with only a passing knowledge of the game would be surprised at how fat they aren’t. The author probably has no real concept for how much stamina it takes alternatively pass blocking and run blocking for an entire offensive series against large strong opponents can be (and the converse of pass rushing and tackling).

    The long and short of it is that cross country types are being lazy in proposing that other sports are simply large strong and dumb guys falling down.

  140. prosa123 says:
    @Seth Largo

    Weight exercises done standing, such as overhead presses, tend to be better calorie and fat burners than those done seated or lying down. Keeping between-set rest periods short also helps burn the suet.

  141. prosa123 says:
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Charles Atlas developed his “dynamic tension” muscle building system at a time when weights were relatively scarce and expensive. Even though that’s no longer the case, the system is still around and by all accounts works well.

  142. OFWHAP says:
    @ThreeCranes

    On “Captain Planet” the two Planeteers who represented earth and fire were male, while the two who represented wind and water were female. Coincidence?

  143. AaronB says:

    Ha ha ha, wait, you mean middle and upper class women – i.e the pretty women – prefer slender guys to those who project brute force?

    Well, I guess the Game and HBD crowd will have to completely rethink things…

    Or more likely, they’ll just ignore this and double down 🙂

    Do you even lift, bro?

  144. MNL says:

    Come on, people. The author that Steve quotes, like most men, makes the mistake of taking what women say at face value. A woman who says that she prefers her husband/boyfriend in skinny endurance pursuits may actually be saying she’s insecure knowing other women are attracted to the ripped physique of the man she’s counting on to stay as her provider. …Enough so, that for the author and his wife, it all causes an argument.

    There’s something primordial about it. Most women are more physically attracted to a man who looks as though he can protect her from a physical threat; not a man who can outrun it.

    • Replies: @Ola
  145. OFWHAP says:
    @RH

    Yes, the typical high school wide receiver does absolutely nothing in practice and can’t be relied upon to block during a game. I remember the days of practice in 90+ degree heat and 80+% humidity with the linemen, running backs, and linebackers hitting each other and pushing our overweight coaches on the blocking sleds while the QBs and receivers tossed the ball back and forth to work on their hands. It was infuriating.

  146. @AnotherDad

    Don’t get angry, get even.

    Trans yourself and beat them at their own game.

  147. AaronB says:

    If you look at historical pictures of European adventurers, military officers, duelling aristocrats, colonial administrators, explorers, hunters – the tough physical adventuring class – they are all slender men with refined features that clearly are as much intellect as brawn, if not more. Today they would clearly belong to the SWPL class.

    Paintings of European nobility from the 16th century on show the same type.

    I used to make this point to the silly alt right types…how they would fight me lol…:)

    • Replies: @ben tillman
  148. @Colin Wright

    Funny comment. And largely true.

    From the histories I’ve read (e.g. John Toland), it seems to have boiled down to bad communication at the privy council meetings with the Emperor.

    The extremely ritualized and stilted meetings meant that nobody knew what the Emperor approved of. And no one wanted to talk out of place or disagree in front of him.

    So they just stumbled toward an obvious disaster because no one was able to talk about it.

  149. I’m biased, of course, but I’ve found rock climbing to offer the perfect strength/cardio ratio. You need to have endurance to move in a vertical environment, whether it’s for ten minutes or ten hours. But you also need to have raw force to propel yourself through the harder moves, like mantling up onto a ledge.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @JMcG
  150. Two old school triathletes from the glory days of the 80’s. I don’t know where the rumor got started that triathletes were skinny, geek-type guys but obviously it’s wrong headed, as these pictures show.

    Scott Tinley
    Dave Scott

    • Replies: @International Jew
  151. @L Woods

    alt-right/manosphere ‘lift bruh’ circlejerk is as hollow as all of their other pretensions to power and control

    To the extent this “circlejerk” comment is meant to disparage gym rats preening to one another, you may have a point that it is “hollow.”

    I’ll part company however with any suggestion that the use of discipline and knowledge to strengthen oneself physically is anything less than a profound act of “power and control.”

  152. Wilkey says:
    @Erik Sieven

    What matters for status is natural strength or genetic potential for strength. Weight training does not make somebody “stronger” but only “better trained”. That’s why intense strength training is a waste of time for most people in my opinion.

    Perhaps in some ways, but I definitely found it a lot easier to get dates after I took up lifting, yet I have never been “ripped” by any means. Just a little more extra muscle in all the right places, plus the commensurate boost in testosterone, was enough.

    • Replies: @Erik Sieven
  153. Rapparee says:

    “I’m really into lifting weights right now,” I said. “Trying to get strong.”

    The lawyer’s wife, a marathoner and family therapist, appeared startled, as if concerned about my emotional state. She looked me in the eye and said, “Why?”

    The benefits of looking like you might possibly be capable of kicking someone’s ass are obvious to anyone who has even once in his life passed through a dubious neighborhood late at night. (E.g., the Maracana in Rio, as vividly illustrated for our host in 1978).

    This is like asking why someone would rather be smart than dumb, handsome rather than ugly, or comfortably affluent rather than desperately poor- if you even have to ask, you’re already too out-of-touch from normal humanity for any kind of worthwhile or productive argument.

  154. Tulip says:

    Its an interesting question. Traditionally, in the U.S., strength sports are white trash, cardio is management. In contrast, strength sports were always encouraged in the Soviet Union because they thought strong citizen = good soldier.

    I think the anti-strength culture had everything to do with industrial work, where blue collar meant heavy work involving strength and white collar meant sedentary. Today, most blue collar work is now sedentary, and white collar folks are the only ones with the time and money to hit the gym enough to build a physique. So I suspect having a real physique may be shifting in terms of social class.

    Additionally, if you look at Hollywood, the standard for men is strong, generally PED strong. If you look at the studies on dating apps, women and gay men prefer strong, well dressed white men. Women and gay men certainly prefer to F#$& strong men, but maybe they want a “relationship” with a cardio nerd, I don’t know.

    I also think America and the West suffer from MDD, or Masculine Deficit Disorder. People are sick of adenoidal stick men, and they want real men back. So I think muscle and class is flipping as we speak.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
  155. Here’s the real class aspect of it all: for urban liberals, aerobic exercise is itself a marker of minimum wealth. You can afford all the gear (for bicyclists, this can involve obscene amounts of money) and can move your body long distances through big stretches of town that are nice enough to be worth moving through for reasons other than arriving at a destination. Body building exercises, on the other hand, can be done in a prison cell. What does that prove?

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
  156. @Colin Wright

    In the book Underworld by DeLillo the protagonist, who had a job in the transport business, observes how he got at least the same strength as his brother, who was training with weights.

  157. @Wilkey

    You are right about that. But that’s what I mean with moderate strength training.

  158. Steve proposes to study men to determine whether they prefer endurance or strength building. That’s like asking whether it’s better to be in a punk band or a heavy-metal band — the obvious answer is “whichever gets me laid the most.”

    Straight male behavior almost always depends on what (men perceive) is attractive to females.

    A more interesting study would look at how women generally, or the subjects’ wives and girlfriends in particular, rate their attractiveness on a “before” and “after” basis.

    There will be variance in this. For example, I have anecdotally observed that a certain subset of women (among all social classes) is extremely (and involuntarily) attracted to muscles. While others can take or leave them. I suspect this is a genetically determined predilection.

    Aside from appearance, there are lots of subtle biochemical factors in the mix as well. For example, high intensity exercise is know to increase testosterone and HGH levels. This may trigger release of pheromones and other chemical signals.

    Not to mention changes in the hard-to-quantify traits of male confidence and “swagger.” Which may attract or repel based on taste.

    Best of all – the study will self-finance as any objective data on attracting women can be easily monetized.

  159. Tulip says:

    It is important to distinguish between strength sports (powerlifting, olympic lifting, strong man competitions) and “body building”.

    “Body Building” as far as I can tell, is for men who like posing almost naked in front of other men and probably all suffer from some version of body dismorphic and eating disorder. There is no actual athletic standards in body building, all the guys are jacked on PED’s, and they have terrible, screwed up diets. They take so many steroids and they have that awful HGH belly, they really look like freaks, 320 lbs. on a 5′ 8″ frame with only 4.5% body fat.

  160. @WowJustWow

    Agreed.

    There needs to be a term for a status display that is ostentatious in its sheer under-statedness. (The concept of the “humble brag” on social media is leaning in that direction.)

    Upper-middle class liberals would gladly spend $150,000 for the latest Tesla. But buying a (far more entertaining) Ferrari would be unspeakably gauche.

    Some of this may be the residue of Puritanism.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
  161. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Sentinel

    Rippetoe would disagree with you on your first statement, as, I think, would most strength coaches. Strength is sort of analogous to intelligence in that it’s broadly applicable. The reason why Starting Strength, 5/3/1 and other programs focus on the main four barbell exercises is that they involve the most muscle mass enabling moving the most weight over long ranges of motion. When football players, MMA fighters, and other non-strength athletes train with Starting Strength coaches, they do the main barbell lifts too. They believe replacing those exercises with ones that attempt to mimic movements of particular sports is less effective.

    As for increasing speed rather than mass, there is a technique based on that – it’s called dynamic effort training. In that technique you load a bar with a weight of about half your 1-rep max and do sets moving the bar as fast as possible. It’s used mainly as a switch-up for intermediate and advanced trainees. I don’t know if any novice has gotten much stronger using it, as it’s difficult to evaluate if you are going fast enough, and it’s harder to titrate speed than it is to titrate weight.

    • Replies: @Sentinel
  162. Anon[171] • Disclaimer says:
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    That physique usually doesn’t make it to the late 20s

    They’re married by the late twenties, the wife has had three non-IVF babies from non-dried up eggs, and the kids have symmetrical, low mutagenic-load faces. You don’t need a buff body by that point. You’ve got the family and somehow you manage not to get divorced.

  163. Timothy S says:

    “visor, fancy sunglasses, GPS watch. I caught a look of yearning in my wife’s eyes.”

    It’s not the body type.

    • Replies: @Svigor
  164. @Anon

    This fosters sportsmanship but favors the well-behaved inferior athlete over the less well-behaved superior athlete. Is that really ethical?

    Yes, that’s really ethical, and if you don’t do it you end up with a troupe of obnoxious egotists like we now have in professional sports.

    FWIIW the superior athlete is usually pretty well behaved, if they’ve trained to be that way. More training; better athlete, and better behavior if your sport demands it. Think about it. If your sport doesn’t demand it, you get dangerous orcs. Judo descended from older forms of jiu jitsu, where the practitioners were unsavory rowdies; so it represented a sort of social reform.

    My first ‘sport’ was traditional Okinawan martial arts; Uechi-Ryu. It was striking how many of the black belts in our little dojo had made great achievements in life; doctorates in the sciences, high level executives, judges, entrepreneurs, doctors. The discipline I learned there helped me to achieve a thing or two as well; I’m 3-4 sigmas away from what I was born to. Without the zen sportsmanship and discipline, it’s just calisthenics and beating each other up. Sure, a skilled boxer could probably beat up many of the advanced guys in the dojo; that’s not really the point.

    FWIIW western martial arts like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu certainly tone down this aspect of social harmony in the dojo, as Brazilians are kind of more flamboyant than your average Japanese, but it is still there.

  165. @Seth Largo

    I would think that outdoor sports like rock climbing and surfing would tend to produce a high level of all around fitness.

    • Replies: @Svigor
  166. At parties with my wife, I saw men who ran marathons, and they looked gaunt and weak. I could have squashed them.

    I’d bet he was an asσhole before he took up weightlifting too.

  167. @ThreeCranes

    Well, that guy looks pretty skinny to me. Not quite marathon runner skinny but getting there.

    I’ll guess that at the not-quite-elite levels, triathletes aren’t too thin because the most successful ones come from a swimming background. (Anyone fit can learn to run or bike but swimming fast is an art (that I for one struggle at).)

    I compete in road races (mostly 10k) and at a BMI of 23 I’m one of the “fattest” guys (that can go under about 50 minutes that is). I could run faster if I became geeky thin but it’s not worth it.

  168. @jon

    Running in itself can’t be very time-consuming because few people can run for more than about one hour a day without sooner or later getting injured. You want time consuming, look at bicycling.

    A one-hour run, unfortunately, might leave you pretty useless for another hour or two afterwards. That’s not too detrimental to your career if you can get up early to run.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
  169. Ola says:
    @MNL

    More likely the “buff” husband had gained 10 pounds of muscle and 30 pounds of fat. Enough muscle to make you much stronger and fool your self that the gains are “all muscle”, but also enough fat to make you much less attractive to most women.

    This is a very common scenario. Weight training is great for improving your looks, but many manage the opposite by just chasing plates on the bar. If your relative strength doesn’t improve, your looks generally don’t improve either.

    Absolute strength has merits of its own of course. Ideally, training should improve both relative and absolute strength, but improving absolute strength while maintaining relative strength is quite impressive too.

  170. Sentinel says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    Most strength coaches have all read the same books.

  171. @Wilkey

    Weightlifting boosts your testosterone levels and helps you to feel better and look better, and does those things long before you ever start to look like you spend all your time in the gym. The extra energy it gives you more than pays for 3 hours or so a week spent lifting weights.

    Yes, that is my experience. Thank you for saying it so well.

  172. @Hypnotoad666

    Upper-middle class liberals would gladly spend $150,000 for the latest Tesla. But buying a (far more entertaining) Ferrari would be unspeakably gauche.

    Some of this may be the residue of Puritanism.

    That’s ridiculous. It would be the other way around since, in the environment you posit, the Tesla would be far more showy.

  173. @Tulip

    Its an interesting question. Traditionally, in the U.S., strength sports are white trash, cardio is management.

    No, that is all wrong. Football is a strength sport, and its origins are in the upper and middle classes.

    “Cardio is management” is unintelligible.

  174. @AaronB

    If you look at historical pictures of European adventurers, military officers, duelling aristocrats, colonial administrators, explorers, hunters – the tough physical adventuring class – they are all slender men with refined features that clearly are as much intellect as brawn, if not more. Today they would clearly belong to the SWPL class.

    Not even close.

    SWPL’s are wimps.

    The adventurers etc. whom you refer to were the polar opposite.

    • Replies: @Svigor
  175. Svigor says:

    Soon, however, I suffered a creeping insecurity. Looking into the eyes of a banker with soft hands, I imagined him thinking, You deluded moron, what does muscle have to do with anything?

    Uhm, pussy? LoL.

  176. Svigor says:
    @Timothy S

    The guy’s clearly got issues. His wife and the banker would probably be all like “WTF are you talking about?”

  177. Svigor says:
    @ben tillman

    If you look at the pictures of fucking EVERYONE from back in the day, they were very lean and mean compared to today’s fatties.

  178. Svigor says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Yeah, rock climbing sounds pretty optimal.

    Know what really builds great muscles? WORK. Using heavy tools all day will make you hard AF. It takes a crazy amount of strength training to match because work uses all kinds of angles that people forget (or don’t know) to train.

    E.g., look at masterwork oil paintings. Notice how heavy the forearms are, relative to today’s bodybuilders? That’s because real work is heavy on the forearms, relative to strength training. They were probably using soldiers/blacksmiths/laborers/etc. as models. Blue collar dudes got grip strength out the ass (mechanics!) – it seems like a pretty difficult thing to train for.

    I bet rock climbers got it in spades.

  179. @International Jew

    I think that’s why the 10K is such a popular race. For a decent recreational runner that means training runs of forty minutes and your workout is over. You’re right at the threshold of burning through your blood sugar so you’re not bonked and can still go about the rest of your day relatively normally.

  180. Svigor says:

    Combat sports are great in theory, but the amount of injuries you’re subject to is probably prohibitive. We’re talking hours per training day and that much wrestling = inevitable injuries. Training in combat sports is good but using it as strength training is probably not optimal.

  181. @dvorak

    The main difference is that strength training involves moderate/high pain on workout days and on rest days. Aerobic training is basically pleasurable – even being winded doesn’t hurt much at all.

    That’s your experience. Many people long-distance running much more unpleasant.

  182. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Seth Largo

    The old saying is you don’t get strong from lifting: you get strong from recovering from lifting.

  183. @L Woods

    Really? But girls like me, and I have a high IQ

    I tell you, the euphoria from testosterone is generous. Prodigious

  184. @stillCARealist

    Westernized Chinese all go with Anglo names. The immigrant kids adopt nicknames that people can actually say.

    Part of that is the lack of tone. People are already mangling the surnames, at times making them obscene. Why double or triple the problem with a given name as well? Also, like with many Jews, they may indeed have an old country name that they use in private.

    In Southeast Asia, where the surnames tend to be long, many Chinese take on something native. This seems to be strongest in Indonesia. Sometimes short Asian names are coincidentally the same as words or names in the new language, eg, Lee, Young, Locke, Park, and Kim.

    Hindu first names are religious in origin, and their retention shows a reluctance to assimilate.

    Even more disturbing are Arab names, many of which are of Biblical origin. Thus they could easily assimilate, but choose not to.

    I know a Somali who, upon getting citizenship, changed his last name from one Arabic thing to another. I already knew the cognates, and I kidded him for going from Adam to Jesus. He named one son “Daoud”– which is David. But what’s wrong with just “David”?

  185. Carl Stempel, for example, writing in the International Review for the Sociology of Sport

    There really is such a thing? It’s not from The Onion or Monty Python?

    This Stempel character doesn’t even rate a Wikipedia page. The only Stempels there are a Panamanian soccer coach, a short-term CEO of GM (and the rare father of a kidnap victim), and the guy who exposed the rigging of game shows back in the 1950s. (He’s still alive.)

    The Stempels should just go back to what they were good at, typography. They have nothing to say, but let others say it beautifully.

  186. Rapparee says:
    @Svigor

    Notice how heavy the forearms are, relative to today’s bodybuilders?… Blue collar dudes got grip strength out the ass (mechanics!)…

    My father worked as a mechanic before I was born; he said his left forearm looked relatively normal in those days, but his right forearm looked like it had been transplanted from Popeye the Sailor-Man.

  187. JMcG says:
    @Seth Largo

    I was a semi serious rock/ice climber through my mid thirties. When I took myself to our western mountains, I found out what kind of aerobic shape I wasn’t in.
    When I got back from that first humiliating trip out west, I bought a mountain bike and started doing 20 miles/day five days a week. That was barely enough to keep me fit in alpinist’s terms.
    My next trip I managed to solo Grand Teton in 14 hours. On my way up, I met Alex Lowe coming down. He had soloed the North Face and downclimbed the Owen-Spaulding Route in around three hours. Wearing running shoes.
    Of course, he’s dead now and I’m not.

    • Replies: @Seth Largo
  188. anonymous[351] • Disclaimer says:

    Different sports draw different classes of people, that’s pretty apparent and undeniable. The types that gather at boxing matches are visually quite distinct from those at tennis or golf tournaments. Perhaps the writer came across as something of a class traitor when he journeyed into weight training, something along the lines of ‘Oh, you’ve joined THOSE people’ and perhaps now vote like the proles also. The writer seems to be something of a narcissist however with his focus on himself, his appearance and how others are now reacting to him. It’s all about him.
    At the extreme ends of either pursuit there are health and injury concerns. Marathoners accumulate various joint injuries as do bodybuilders. They all report some level of damage from constant running or lifting. They all seek bragging rights, the high class runners waiting fifteen minutes before letting you know how great they are whereas the body builders let you know right away through their appearance. It’s an ego thing since the far end of these pursuits have no real practical applications except medal seeking. There’s an abundance of narcissists, exhibitionists, attention whores and borderline personality types at the extreme ends. Nothing wrong with wanting to have a nice beach body though so people who work out may as well come right out and say it.

  189. AndrewR says:
    @ben tillman

    Doing strength training and going for the bodybuilder look are two separate things. One can seek to be strong and fit without going to the extremes that a bodybuilder does. I’ll concede that younger body builders are probably more likely to be “upper middle class” than
    older ones. Bodybuilding, like tattoos, has undergone a lot of growth outside its lower class origins.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
  190. AndrewR says:
    @Federalist

    So if they haven’t reached “middle age” then the wife should badger him to become less muscular? Lol

    I agree with your second paragraph. I think any psychologically healthy heterosexual woman is most attracted to men with an above average amount of muscle and a below average amount of fat. Certainly the most attractive women do, since they don’t need to settle with some fat and/or weak dude.

  191. AndrewR says:
    @Sentinel

    Not true at all. An antelope’s top speed is about 60 mph. Are they “predators”?

    The best predator of all is the human, whose sprinting speed is lower than many types of prey and many types of predators, but our long-distance running speed and endurance are better than perhaps any other animal.

  192. ATBOTL says:
    @South Texas Guy

    Funny, most of the competitive triathletes I know in real life lift weights too. Some of them have been bodybuilders at other points in their life, including female ones. Has anyone ever watched a triathlon? These people are lean, but not built like twigs. You need some leg muscle for the bike and upper body muscle for the swim. They tend to be a little more mesomorph than pure distance runners, with broader shoulders relative to hips. I saw a major televised international triathlon that was happening at a resort I stayed at once. These people cut weight like wrestlers and boxers do and showed up supper ripped. With off season body fat levels, they would be even less twig like.

    I think the a lot of the kind of cardio yuppie types mentioned in this article don’t really do much training, whatever they tell people. I know a lot of people in the cycling community and usually they have lifted at some point and played team sports too when they were growing up in addition to riding their bike a lot. Lance Armstrong played high school football.

  193. @Anon

    Howard Stern’s mother did the same thing

  194. @International Jew

    I compete in road races (mostly 10k) and at a BMI of 23 I’m one of the “fattest” guys (that can go under about 50 minutes that is). I could run faster if I became geeky thin but it’s not worth it.

    I’ve found that I feel best at a BMI of about 23 as well. I used to run quite a bit, and got down to about 21, but I looked pretty skinny and older than my years.

    Now I do high intensity bodyweight exercise workouts 2-3 times a week, plus many miles of walking/hiking each week. There’s no need for gym visits or special equipment, so it saves lots of time and trouble.

  195. @Svigor

    In Tom Wolfe’s A Man in Full, one of the protagonists, young Conrad Hensley, goes to work in a warehouse and develops incredibly strong forearms and hands, which he then uses to good effect when he gets sentenced to prison.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
  196. @L Woods

    While I agree that right wingers need to create more culture rather than react to it (or wait for Clint Eastwood movies), they shouldn’t just become empty marathon runners that only worry about similarly vapid concerns regarding diet and physical beauty, just that they require endurance rather than strength to achieve their aesthetic visions. It’s yet another reprisal of airy svelteness vs generous strength.

    Furthermore, you talk as if the Right was made out of bodybuilders. Far from the truth, as bodybuilding bros tend to be apolitical idiots too roided up to vote. Aren’t right wingers pasty nerds in basements?

    Not to mention, the PoC men that leftists love are ten times more vapid gym-loving masculinists than white right wingers.

  197. @Truth

    It’s not good to fetishize it, makes you repellent to women. However, it has a dose of truth. Men tend to like to marry women with less mileage/more fertility if they can. And today’s Western society kind of doesn’t help… at least if we want to pay debts and/or keep things running.

  198. @L Woods

    That I agree with. However, I’d argue that most politically-involved right wingers tend to be the basement dwellers, and not so much the manosphere circle jerkers that keep to their forums, much less juiceheads that tend to be apolitical.

    Either way, it could be argued that modern people in general are too distracted by vapid concerns that distract them from the future, and that “do you even lift” culture (which btw, appeared in the Obama years, though the empty Bush era didn’t help) is but one example.

    Furthermore, is it but inevitable, considering everyone having a public social media profile now (fulfilling Warhol’s 15 Minute Prophecy), that everyone turns to peacocking. The problem is, where will this lead to.

  199. @JMcG

    Great story about Lowe! I met Tommy Caldwell and Beth Rodden in RMNP once. They had just finished a “casual” day of bouldering some V8s (~5.13).

  200. @Dave Pinsen

    Well, I haven’t read Rippetoe, so I won’t purport to critique his reasoning. I have read several of the popular bodyweight books, and am trying to get going on this path. What they say is that you can increase the difficulty of a given exercise by modifying the exercise itself. The claim seems to be that modifying the exercise overcomes the effects of “adaptation”.
    My own vice is to keep intellectualizing and not doing it, but it seems to me that this (bodyweight) is the route to start with. Still, I am not sure of the truth… I did my pushups today though…

  201. @Anonymous

    I actually own both of these books and have read them and like them.
    They both seem intellectually interesting and grounded in reality.
    I am seriously going to try to roll with Convict Conditioning though. I’ve seen plausible claims that the narrative is not entirely true, and I’ve seen reasonable sounding critiques of the progressions. (And I’ve tried it before and fell off track…) But I have not seen any book that combines reasonably plausible narrative with reasonably plausible science to the degree that it does. To me that is pretty good.
    (On a deeper level, I think it is great… we need both narrative and science…)

  202. @SporadicMyrmidon

    If you want to work out with bodyweight exercises, scoobysworkshop — http://scoobysworkshop.com — is very good. Lots of solid nutrition info too.

    Using free weights is very important if you get into working out and start progressing. Starting Strength is a very good book for basic weight lifting.

  203. @AndrewR

    The first time a girl told me I looked like Tarzan, when I was 16, I weighed about 150 and probably benched less than that, so there is a huge range between looking good and the bodybuilder look.

  204. @The Last Real Calvinist

    In Tom Wolfe’s A Man in Full, one of the protagonists, young Conrad Hensley, goes to work in a warehouse and develops incredibly strong forearms and hands, which he then uses to good effect when he gets sentenced to prison.

    I used to marvel at my barber’s forearms when I was a kid.

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