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The Romance languages tended to emerge out of imperial Latin in a clinal fashion with neighboring villages speaking mutually intelligible dialects, but if you went far enough in any direction, you’d run into people whom you couldn’t quite understand. Getting these local dialects to coalesce into a national language such as French took all sorts of carrots and sticks, generating winners (e.g., Parisians, who have their literature live on) and losers. For example, eight hundred years ago, the Provencal language in what’s now the south of France was perhaps the most sophisticated and fashionable pop culture language in Europe. But it has since been largely crushed under the high-heeled pointy-toed jackboot of Paris.

Further along the Mediterranean in Catalonia, in what’s now Spain, the Catalan language has survived more strongly, perhaps because Catalonia has tended to be more prosperous than the rest of Spain on average. When Catalan intellectuals got excited about the Romantic nationalist thinking sweeping Europe in the 1830s, they debated what traits distinguished Catalans from Spaniards. Eventually, they settled upon industriousness and common sense, which kind of makes them sound like the (lowland) Scots of Iberia.

The Catalans want to conduct a secession referendum on Sunday, although the Spanish government has banned it. I don’t have an opinion on the subject: this qualifies as not my problem. I wish all involved the best, but I don’t know what that would be.

I haven’t seen anybody mention it, but it’s probably not irrelevant that the Spanish government before the catastrophic 2008 crash pursued a policy of encouraging immigration to Spain by Latin Americans, virtually none of whom speak Catalan. Boosting immigration is an old trick for a central government to play to keep secessionists from winning. For example, Quebec independence failed narrowly in 1995 due to the immigrant vote.

I do want to speak briefly about secession referenda in general. Consider the Scottish independence referendum in 2014, which PM David Cameron set up as a one-time vote open only to Scots with simple majority rule. It failed 45-55, so it did not undo 307 years of union.

But it seems to me that major long-term decisions like secession should have higher hurdles of one kind or another than what Cameron established.

For example, should the other citizens of the union get a vote? In 2002, the San Fernando Valley voted by a narrow majority to secede from Los Angeles, but the rest of the city voted overwhelmingly to hang on to its tax cow, so the majority of secessionists in the Valley didn’t get their way the way they would have in Scotland?

Should the rest of the union get a veto? Perhaps the part of the polity being seceded from should need a majority to approve the secession?

Or perhaps a supermajority, such as 60%, should have to vote for it. This is actually not that strenuous of a hurdle because successful secessions often to turn into runaway landslides. For example, in the plebiscite to secede from Sweden in 1905, Norwegians voted for independence 368,208 to 184.

Or perhaps an independence vote should be ratified by a second vote a few months later just to make sure there are no second thoughts.

P.S. Commenter slumber_j asks:

An off-topic but iSteve-y question: Why are Northern Italian regionalists (Lega Lombarda–Lega Nord) very much not cool with the NYT, whereas Catalan separatists are?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/28/world/europe/in-catalonia-independence-referendum.html?_r=0

Possible explanations:

–George Orwell never wrote Homage to Piedmont.

–Northern Italian isn’t an actual language but a bunch of dialects, none of which is as close to Provençal as Catalan is–rendering them useless at conjuring long, long lavender-scented afternoons of rosé-sipping poolside ecstasy.

–The Catalans were largely Communist / Anarcho-Sindicalist in the Spanish Civil War (albeit brutally so), whereas the Northern Italians pretty much invented Fascism and especially such central Fascist phenomena as Benito Mussolini.

Okay, yeah: all of the above, but really the last one.

Commenter RobertTS replies:

Slumber, this is going to be a long one, but there is a seam of material here. Thanks for raising the subject.

“Northern Italian isn’t an actual language but a bunch of dialects, none of which is as close to Provençal as Catalan …”

Northern Italian isn’t a language anyway, but a subfamily of Romance languages (Piemontese, Ligurian, Lombard*, Emilian-Romagnol*, and Venetian**) which in turn have their own dialects and subdialects. What is for sure is that these Gallo-Italic vernaculars are not offshoots of Italian (i.e., Central Italian, which, despite including the dialect of Rome, takes Tuscan as its prestige dialect). Nor for that matter are the Southern Italian languages (Neapolitan and Sicilian, each scattered into a mosaic of dialects) Italy is even more linguistically varied than is Spain but its seperatist movements never quite got around to harnessing this power in their centrifugalism with quite the vigor of those in Spain (or France, even). In relation to the Catalan point, if having a bona fide language and not merely a dialectical variant of the country’s main language is the criterion for justifying a nation-state, then Spain would have about 6 to 7 new countries whilst Italy would fragment into perhaps twice as many.

–The Catalans were largely Communist / Anarcho-Sindicalist in the Spanish Civil War (albeit brutally so), whereas the Northern Italians pretty much invented Fascism and especially such central Fascist phenomena as Benito Mussolini.

I’ve long since satisfied myself as to the question of classifying Southern European regionalist movements as Left or Right being much akin to the “Nazism as Left vs Right” debates. In the end, better settle for sui generis. One consistency seems to be their reactiveness – reacting to different trends and pressures through the ages and usually defining themselves in opposition to same as opposed to articulating something mystical.

 



Take Umberto Bossi for example. As a university activist in the early 70s, he was a Leftist and set up Lombard regionalism much in the vein that a Catalan Leftist would portray his own particualar grievances today. In fact, I still recall watching Bossi harangue Lega crowds this century reminding them that the Northern regionalists proudly opposed the centralising forces of Fascism. Though I presume it was the centralist nature of the rest of the Italian Right that bothered/bothers Bossi.
You’re right that Mussolini was a northerner (a Romagnol, who likely grew up speaking this tongue), but I often wonder whether the relatively high support for the Fascist Party in northern provinces in the 1920s and 30s was more an expression of the bourgeoisie and factory-owners accommodating to a force that would keep the wage-hiking Reds at bay from their Southern rabble workforce rather than an enthusiasm for Mussolini’s Neo-Romanism (remember, the Lega fancies Padania as a barely Romanised Celtic land).

The Catalan Question is even more perplexing. You’re correct to note that Orwell and the romance of the Civil War has induced foreigners, especially the wide-eyed and big-hearted, into viewing the whole of Catalan seperatism as a historically Leftist endeavour, but it has had several incarnations throughout time. Even there among the barricades of 1936-39 lies a glitch. A big part of why Barcelona had become a hotbed for Marxist and Anarcho-syndicalist movements is that the huge local proletariat was largely, if not exclusively, non-Catalan in origin and was living in shambolic quarters right next to a city of splendour and abundance. So much so that a subtext of Kulturkampf was in evidence: in some quarters, leftist militias erected banners declaring “Speak Spanish” as a culture war symbol against their Catalan-speaking bosses and burguers, presumably chiding their snobbery as much as their exploititiveness. At the same time you had genuinely Catalanist left-wing groupings like the Esquerra Republicana Català, so the picture becomes further mudied.

Now, if you go back to 1714, supposedly Catalonia’s starting point for regional seperatism, you have to be wary that the French Rev has yet to take place and hence to speak of Left-vs-Right seems anachronistic. But if anything, their revolt was an expression of feudal privileges and a defence of an older Hapsburg form of monarchy as a bulwark against the French-imitating centralising model of a Bourbon monarchy. One might even say it was a defence of traditionalism versus modernisation. Over the next two centuries, the Catalan middle and upper-classes were happy to push for a maximum of local autonomy but never at the expense of their precious access to Spain’s imperial markets – Cuba in particular. Thus, cultural nationalism became a safety valve for expression of local atavisms where political agitation might have been too disturbing to contemplate. Granted, the loss of Spain’s Empire in 1898 makes much of being associated with Spain appear tainted to Catalans on the left and the right. But even post-Civil War and post-Franco, the Catalan urban business community and even its rural conservative faction were always happy to do business with Right-wing parties in Madrid provided that Madrid maxxed their fiscal autonomy and let them engage in a cosplay cultivating dreams of a future nation/yearning for a mythical past. In premise, Catalan regionalism has always had left-wing and right-wing manifestations. For example, Barcelona soccer club has made a killing marketing itself as a sort of anti-Spain, and the kind of rebel-romance mythos that a global fanbase loves to imbibe, yet its directors and operators have featured a hotel magnate who was a fully-paid up member of the Partido Popular – oft-deried as the successors to Franco – on the basis that having the Spanish Right lording it over federal matters in Madrid is preferrable to the Spanish Left holding the levers, as well as a Friedmanite economist whose vision of an independent Catalonia is more Singapore than Scandanavia. What has happened in recent years to bring us to this present impasse is that the etiquette in the Madrid-Barcelona tango has broken down: the Spanish Right is wedded to a centralist vision of the nation since 1812 which in turn alienates the two most productive regions of the country which it needs to prevent the entire peninsula from becoming a left-wing governed banana republic. But since the Spanish Right also purports to defend the Catholic Spain in the culture wars, it ends up casting itself as a punching bag for the grievances of every weed-smoking co-op buying cat-owning leftie in Catalonia and every other corner of Spain. Such that I have lefty friends in Madrid who are egging on Catalan independence because they hope it will become the encarnation of a Spain they wished to see had the Second Republic triumphed. Hell, some of them will even take to learning Catalan and relocate there. So now the prospects of a fiscally prudent Catalonia becoming independent only to midwife a Bolivarian experiment is probably keeping the more right-leaning regionalists awake at night: separate from Madrid only to become a reenactment of Madrid in 1936 (Madrid, despite the libel thrown at it by everyone within Spain who hates Spain, was a leftwing holdout for most of the Civil War), and this time with an open-borders mayor in Barcelona gladly declaring a sanctuary city for Mohammedans (cos, y’know, to atone for Spain having had the temerity to reconquer territory from the Moors).

The Basques are a fascinating case. But for a quirk of fate, they might have sided with Franco in the Civil War and spared themselves the resulting loss of autonomy that came with defeat. This was the most socially conservative people in Spain, who in preceding centuries had raised arms in defence of absolute monarchy whenever Madrid appeared to be foistering Englightenment ideals upon the country (“Don’t teach your sons Spanish, the language of Liberalism,” Basque priests used to intone). The Basques were horrified by the licentiousness and anti-clericalism of the Second Republic. But the Republic offered them autonomy: again, the tragedy of the Spanish Right alienating potential allies through its French-originating centralism. For Basque Nationalists, their seperatism was always ethnolinguistic, even racial in the late 19th century, until the emergence of ETA and its focus on anti-Franco and increasingly leftwing/ PLO/Carlos the Jackal type worldview. But curiously, as late as the 1990s you had Basque bishops refusing to condemn ETA atrocities or speaking of them in mealy-mouthed terms – old habits die hard.

* = much debate abounds as to whether Lombard is in fact two distinct languages, East and West. A smiliar controversey obtains over Emilian and Romagnol. If you want a taste of what Eastern Lombard sounds like, check out musician Charlie Cinelli who sings in the Brescian dialect. It sounds like Gaelic-Norse being sung in a mead hall – about a million miles away from the vowel-ending warblings of Neapolitan crooners

** = Venetian is sometimes not classified as Gallo-Italic due to its lacking in French-type vowels and a rather stripped-down system of pronunciation in common with other obscure Romance tongues like Raeto-Romansch, Ladin and Friulian.

 
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  1. A few years ago during grad school I was studying abroad in the UK and wound up hanging out with the Erasmus undergrad EU crowd. Interestingly, the young Spanish men from the Catalan region were all strongly for independence. The women didn’t seem to care too much. One of my flatmates, from Valencia, slept with the most vocal proponent of Catalan nationalism and later complained that Catalonian independence was all he cared about. It would be very interesting to see what the gender split is in the polling.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Cédric Klapisch's The Spanish Apartment made Erasmus look like fun.

    He made a terrible sequel a few years later, but imagine if a studio hired Houellebecq to co-author a script for a 3rd installment, one addressing what's happened in Europe over the last decade? The Spanish Apartment was sort of a love letter to EU integration, one that took the peace and prosperity of turn-of-the-century Europe for granted, exemplified by the young protagonist turning down a sinecure in a French government agency to be a writer (as if he couldn't have found time to write with that cake job).

    The sequel was still in fantasy land, with him taking the Eurostar back and forth from Paris to London to collaborate with the British girl on a terrible TV movie. Let's see these characters in their mid-30s dealing with Brexit, terrorism, mass Muslim immigration, real estate busts, Greece's bankruptcy, the rise of the right, European secession movements in general, etc.
    , @anonymouslee
    I wouldn't have known Catalan independence was serious except that a few years ago my sister had dated a guy who was going home to Barcelona for Christmas.

    My sister e-mailed him and asked how it was going in Spain. To my sister's confusion he snapped back angrily, "I'm not in Spain. I'm in Barcelona."
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  2. Beckow says:

    One of the main functions of a central government is to control the country’s borders. That is why there is a central government. This used to be more military based, with occasional actual wars, but today it is about who comes across the border, who gets to stay, in other words migration policies.

    In the last few decades this core function performed by central governments has been gradually abandoned. So when parts of these larger states – like Catalonia in Spain – look at their capitals they don’t see much value. With unguarded and open borders, large centralised states make no sense.

    This is one reason for the rapid increase in separatism. There are of course many others, cultural, economic, linguistic, etc… But I believe opening borders also creates a vacuum in the centre of the current states. Almost nothing they do makes sense with open borders and mass migration. How can there be educational or health policies with open access from outside? Or a normal labor market leading to a normal economy? Or cultural policies? Mass migration with effectively unprotected borders make all central state functions pointless. One reaction is an increased desire to separate by constituent parts of the state. This is what the Brussels (and Washington) ruling elites don’t get. They have been so obsessed with not allowing a ‘power vacuum’ internationally, that they stopped caring about not creating a de facto governing vacuums inside the countries they are supposed to be governing.

    Disintegration is one consequence of not having effective external boundaries. The global mandarins have been dreaming about a seamless, integrated, one-world with no borders global super-state (or a smaller European one), but they lost sight of how that changes the dynamic inside their existing countries. We are heading towards a period of more nationalism, more separatism, more disintegration that is really just re-integrating in a different way what has been stupidly abandoned by the global utopians. It will be messy. I wish both Catalans and Spaniards good luck – but if Madrid wants to stop the separatism, they should do their job and control the external borders.

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    • Replies: @neprof
    Hopefully the rise of subsidiarity as a political movement spreads whatever the cause. From Cailexit to the Catalan vote, anything that weakens the globalist ambitions of the elite is fine with me.
    , @Horzabky
    "Mass migration with effectively unprotected borders make all central state functions pointless. One reaction is an increased desire to separate by constituent parts of the state."

    Exactly so. I'm French, from the Paris region. But I've become so resentful of the islamization and africanization of France that I applaud Corsican and Breton separatism. Open borders mean the death of the host nation. Smaller nations, like Hungary (which used to be a mere province of the Austro-Hungarian empire) are more likely to control their borders and survive.
    , @AnotherDad

    This is one reason for the rapid increase in separatism. There are of course many others, cultural, economic, linguistic, etc… But I believe opening borders also creates a vacuum in the centre of the current states. Almost nothing they do makes sense with open borders and mass migration.
     
    Excellent comment Beckow.

    Either the nation state does its job--in which case it tends to coalesce the people into a nation. (Some states are just not setup on the correct national boundaries to do that, but most, outside African seem to be good enough.) Or it doesn't and then there's just no point.

    ~~
    Mentally preparing my comment on Steve's post, I was going to point out that the EU has generated a bunch of the regional nationalist we see in the EU. People in those areas basically think that nothing substantive will change with succession, they'll still be in the EU have the same trade and freedom of movement. Military and defense no longer matter, so the extra costs there are minimal. Duplicating bureaucracy--heck a bunch of that's already in the EU. So add it all up and it looks like a chance to get the ego boost of waving one's small national banner with minimal cost.

    Not a Scot, never been there, not super-familiar with the debate, but from what I can tell it's not really Scottish nationalism. The SNP doesn't propose leaving to protect Scotland from the coming diversity debacle that London has created in England or that Merkel/EU is creating in Europe. Rather they want to leave the UK, but then join the EU, get big EU subsidies and encourage *more* immigration. Seriously. That's not "nationalism" it's a petulant leftist hissy.

    Real Scottish nationalism would involve lots more Scots guys knocking-up Scots girls and producing lots more Scots babies, raised in Scottish culture to turn around their low TFR and population decline.
    , @StillCARealist
    Best comment. thanks.
    , @Pat Boyle
    Italian opera owes a lot to Catalan. Jose Carreras grew up in Barcelona and couldn't speak Spanish until his family was forced out of Spain and they moved to Mexico. Nor was he the only great Catalan tenor at that time. Giacomo Aragall was also Catalonian. Aragall was the best Cavaradossi I ever heard and that included Corelli, Pavarotti and many, many others.

    On the distaff side there was Monserrat Caballe - arguably the finest soprano in her fach on earth. I often laughed at her singing on records - it wasn't fair, no one could sing like that. I pitied every other soprano.

    If Catalonian independence means a continuation of their record of great singers - I'm enthusiastically for it.
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  3. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    Some impressive erudition there on Spanish and Italian history.

    The FT’s Lex column this weekend talked about the fiscal impact of secession. Catalonia has the highest GDP of any Spanish region, but, interestingly, the lowest rated debt of any Spanish region rated by Moody’s.

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  4. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Aristippus
    A few years ago during grad school I was studying abroad in the UK and wound up hanging out with the Erasmus undergrad EU crowd. Interestingly, the young Spanish men from the Catalan region were all strongly for independence. The women didn't seem to care too much. One of my flatmates, from Valencia, slept with the most vocal proponent of Catalan nationalism and later complained that Catalonian independence was all he cared about. It would be very interesting to see what the gender split is in the polling.

    Cédric Klapisch’s The Spanish Apartment made Erasmus look like fun.

    He made a terrible sequel a few years later, but imagine if a studio hired Houellebecq to co-author a script for a 3rd installment, one addressing what’s happened in Europe over the last decade? The Spanish Apartment was sort of a love letter to EU integration, one that took the peace and prosperity of turn-of-the-century Europe for granted, exemplified by the young protagonist turning down a sinecure in a French government agency to be a writer (as if he couldn’t have found time to write with that cake job).

    The sequel was still in fantasy land, with him taking the Eurostar back and forth from Paris to London to collaborate with the British girl on a terrible TV movie. Let’s see these characters in their mid-30s dealing with Brexit, terrorism, mass Muslim immigration, real estate busts, Greece’s bankruptcy, the rise of the right, European secession movements in general, etc.

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    • Replies: @Aristippus
    Oh God, I remember watching Pot Luck with a bunch a pretentious jack offs back in college. The Erasmus program is lots of fun for the participants. Studying abroad in the US seems like something only affluent and adventurous students do. Erasmus is cool because it is much more democratic. Also the Erasmus students tend to get put in a dorm together and have light course loads, so it's a big international party for a semester. The EU is 90% trash, but Erasmus is one of the few good parts.
    , @Brobert
    A third movie was made where the characters move to New York. I guess that answers the question as to how to deal with modern Europe and its problems.
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  5. Trelane says:

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    https://youtu.be/gHDfj4H7eyQ?t=14
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  6. AP says:

    Should the rest of the union get a veto? Perhaps the part of the polity being seceded from should need a majority to approve the secession?

    That would be like giving the EU a veto over Brexit.

    Or perhaps a supermajority, such as 60%, should have to vote for it.

    This would screw regions with too many immigrants, who don’t have an attachment to the native people.

    Or perhaps an independence vote should be ratified by a second vote a few months later just to make sure there are no second thoughts.

    Some kind of mandatory revote, 6 months later, makes sense. Making a decision whose impact could affect generations seems too important to have the risk of a fluke victory.

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  7. Trelane says:
    @Trelane
    https://youtu.be/-9atR_0ZL9M?t=4741

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  8. Interesting post, just to make sure though I guess you know it, the Catalan nationalists imported around 360.000 Moroccans and 60.000 Pakistanis(!) to aid with their voting endeavours, to teach their children Catalan and fend off the non-Catalan speaking (and unwilling to learn it) Latino immigrants.

    OT–Austria, social democrats hire extra shady Israeli spin doctor to paint their opponents as crazy right wing and to sow discord and confusion. Austrian politics traditionally have been seen as a tad Balkanian-Byzantine in Germany, though as of late we’re quite good at that, too. The spin doctor has been jailed in Israel by now.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-austria-election/top-austrian-social-democrat-steps-down-over-election-smear-campaign-idUSKCN1C50PG

    The spin doctor, Tal Silberstein, seems to have been involved in funny doings during the the 2002 Bolivian presidential election:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Brand_Is_Crisis_(2005_film)

    See also https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.806828

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    What in the name of buggery are Pakistanis doing in Catalunya?

    - As if the Catalans didn't have enough Latin American darkie-paupers to choose from.
    , @Pericles

    Catalan nationalists imported around 360.000 Moroccans and 60.000 Pakistanis(!) to aid with their voting endeavours

     

    That doesn't surprise me, actually. The media seems to be solidly on the Catalan side, which would imply this little lark is a globalist/Jewish project of some sort. Migrant madness is part of the package.
    , @Perspective

    Interesting post, just to make sure though I guess you know it, the Catalan nationalists imported around 360.000 Moroccans and 60.000 Pakistanis(!) to aid with their voting endeavours, to teach their children Catalan and fend off the non-Catalan speaking (and unwilling to learn it) Latino immigrants.
     
    I wonder if the human importers in Europe realize that there are non-Muslim and non-African countries to choose from as well?
    , @RobertTS
    "Madrid Ens Roba" (Madrid robs us) has long been a clarion call of Catalan seperatists (and even regionalists who don't want outright independence).

    It started as a right-wing, quasi-libertarian gripe among the business-oriented Catalan elite, but even got picked up by the leftward open-borders catlady type elements among the separatists such that resentment at having to subsidise supposedly idle Andalusians doesn't extend to subsidising hordes of Moroccans, Somalis and Pakistanis (bonus virtue points for admitting Muslims as a rebuke to Christian Spain - even though the Catalans were just as enthusiastic participants in the Reconquista).

    But then such dissonance will probably become increasingly commonplace across a host of secessionist movements that veer leftwards and display a cultural disdain for their lessers in the badlands: Californians will scorn backward Arkansas and subsidise Guatemalans to prove the point.
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  9. Kind of surprised you made a post about Catalan nationalism and didn’t mention FC Barcelona, employer of Lionel Messi and one of the most famous soccer teams in the world. During the Franco dictatorship, cheering Barca was the only legal outlet for patriotism the Catalans had.

    It would be like discussing Texan culture without mentioning the Dallas Cowboys.

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    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    Texas culture is about high school and college football. Most native white Texans don‘t care that much about the Cowboys. Even 10 years ago I remember people in Fort Wort telling me that the players were all coke addicts and that today’s Cowboys were a far cry from the Landry/Staubach teams they had rooted for in the past.
    , @Tsar Nicholas
    @ Roman Candle

    And yet when the chairman of Barcelona FC came out recently in favour of the illegal referendum, his press conference speech was entirely in English!

    Catalan language and heritage takes a back seat when the occasion demands it.
    , @wiseguy
    Barcelona is on tv playing in front of an empty stadium right now. Pretty funny to see.
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  10. @Dave Pinsen
    Cédric Klapisch's The Spanish Apartment made Erasmus look like fun.

    He made a terrible sequel a few years later, but imagine if a studio hired Houellebecq to co-author a script for a 3rd installment, one addressing what's happened in Europe over the last decade? The Spanish Apartment was sort of a love letter to EU integration, one that took the peace and prosperity of turn-of-the-century Europe for granted, exemplified by the young protagonist turning down a sinecure in a French government agency to be a writer (as if he couldn't have found time to write with that cake job).

    The sequel was still in fantasy land, with him taking the Eurostar back and forth from Paris to London to collaborate with the British girl on a terrible TV movie. Let's see these characters in their mid-30s dealing with Brexit, terrorism, mass Muslim immigration, real estate busts, Greece's bankruptcy, the rise of the right, European secession movements in general, etc.

    Oh God, I remember watching Pot Luck with a bunch a pretentious jack offs back in college. The Erasmus program is lots of fun for the participants. Studying abroad in the US seems like something only affluent and adventurous students do. Erasmus is cool because it is much more democratic. Also the Erasmus students tend to get put in a dorm together and have light course loads, so it’s a big international party for a semester. The EU is 90% trash, but Erasmus is one of the few good parts.

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  11. Italy is even more linguistically varied than is Spain but its seperatist movements never quite got around to harnessing this power in their centrifugalism with quite the vigor of those in Spain (or France, even).

    One reason for both these facts is that unlike France and Spain, Italy was only unified towards the end of the 19th Century. In fact, for much of its recent history Italian intellectuals’ main lament was that Italy wasn’t unified and how this left it at the mercy of more unified nations like France and Spain. See the last section of Machiavelli’s The Prince for an example of this attitude.

    In fact the biggest irony of the Piedmont independence movement (as well as the Sardinian independence movement) is that the above mentioned unification of Italy basically amounted to Piedmont and Sardinia conquer the rest of Italy, admittedly with some support from local Italian nationalists.

    This brings us to one of the weirder aspects of the 19th Century nationalist movements. Namely, that they had a “decentralize everything centralized, and centralize everything decentralized feel to them”. In centralized, or at least large, states like Spain, France, and the Russian, Austrian, and Ottoman Empires they manifested as movements for autonomy and independence by local ethnicities. On the other hand in decentralized “balkanized” territories like Italy and Germany they manifested as unification movements.

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  12. Holy shit Steve Sailer is amazing.

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    • Agree: Logan
    • Replies: @Pat Boyle
    Yeah, and it's starting to piss me off.
    , @Jim Christian

    Holy shit Steve Sailer is amazing.
     
    You would be too, if you could shoot 70 at Augusta National.
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  13. anon says: • Disclaimer

    Does Catalonia plan to remain in the EU, use the Euro, and NATO after they get independence? Let’s assume yes. In that case, there isn’t all that much left for their new independent country to do, except the local stuff that it does now.

    In terms of what is currently handled locally and what is done by the country — that could be negotiated without independence. Scotland has been given more powers prior to their losing referendum. That seemed to make them happier for a while. Plus they have their own Parliament Building and elected representatives who talk a lot. It became rather obvious that there was really nothing remaining to be decided — I don’t think they were too keen on enacting additional taxes. That is the fun part — spending other people’s money.

    The US state map has been static for a century. It is unthinkable for the occasional border county to flip to its adjacent state. It wouldn’t make much difference but a state simply wouldn’t tolerate it. For that matter, the typical US County has a County Seat, Courthouse, and various official duties. I’ve never heard of even a County being redivided.

    Whatever might change in Catalonia if it got its independence — I doubt if it would be worth fighting and dying for. After you have outsourced your currency, your military, your tariffs, and your immigration policy — all thats left is the boring local paperwork.

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    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    Catalonia is precisely the reason why Scottish independence was likely to have seen Scottish EU accession blocked, Spain would have vetoed it. Current rules accession IIRC require all existing members to approve.

    OTOH, if the EU changed the rules and allowed Catalonia in, there'd be an immediate crisis with Spain. The Spanish government might (like Greece) have put up with mass youth unemployment to stay in the euro, but chopping a bit off Spain? The Basques would be next in line, then you have the two most productive areas of Spain gone.

    RomanCandle - "Barcelona soccer club has made a killing marketing itself as a sort of anti-Spain"

    Great post btw, the varied interests and expertise of the Unz commentariat never fails to amaze.

    , @Jack D
    It was not unusual up to the late 19th century in the US for counties to split in two so that the county seat would be less distant. OTOH when NYC was unified in 1898 five counties came under one umbrella.
    , @prosa123
    "For that matter, the typical US County has a County Seat, Courthouse, and various official duties. I’ve never heard of even a County being redivided."

    There was some county-shuffling outside of Denver about 10 or 15 years ago.
    , @slumber_j
    Fun Nutmeg-State fact: for all but geographical purposes, Connecticut dissolved its eight counties in 1960.
    , @Pericles
    Would Spain permit Catalonia to enter the EU, NATO, the Euro, or anything else?
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  14. Trelane says:

    Fernwood Tonight. Host Barth Gimble, cohost Jerry Hubbard and guest Dr. Emanuel Kazinsky.

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  15. I don’t know much about the Spanish situation (except that I wonder why, if the Catalans are so keen on their own state, why aren’t they also concerned about mass immigration? Who needs their own state when they’re a minority or heading that way, in that state? But I never hear about Spain when it comes to anti-immigrant parties.)

    But the Kurdish vote for independence in Iraq is…interesting. Especially since they’re landlocked.

    The Middle East is a pretty rough neighbourhood. This won’t end well. They depend on Turkey as a conduit for their oil.

    Erdogan, who dislikes Kurds in general, is furious. The Iraq Kurds will just give Turkish Kurds ideas.

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  16. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    The irony is that this is all happening in the wake of Brexit, and the remoaners in the UK still haven’t ceased whining, back-sliding, belly-aching etc about weaseling out of the plebiscite and staying in the EU – ie accepting some sort of arrangement in which UK sovereignty is ultimately compromised – in all but name.
    The Economist magazine has never accepted Brexit. Therefore it is a given that the British deep-state will do its damndest to keep the UK in.

    Anyway, more point is that the EU, as ever, is the source of this trouble. Catalan independence can only work in the context of EU membership – all the Catalans are really planning on doing is exchanging Iberian domination for EU Commission domination. At least in the case of Iberian domination, the actual Catalan people have a ‘say’ in their government, under EU Commission domination they will most certainly not – witness the scheme to impose massive third world immigration upon eastern Europe.
    The EU – exposing the fundamental contradictions at its heart – is forced into a double game here. On the one hand, it must seek to keep the Spanish government, a loyal and vital member, happy and stable. On the other hand, by siding with the Spanish government, it shows itself to be unresponsive to ‘democratic’ nationalist sentiment.

    As the great Enoch Powell put it, ‘Either a nation is sovereign or it is not. Anything else is merely local government’.

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    • Replies: @eD
    "As the great Enoch Powell put it, ‘Either a nation is sovereign or it is not. Anything else is merely local government’."

    This is an interesting thread, but in this case Powell's classical scholarship shown through, because this is actually what happened with the Roman Empire.

    The Roman Empire until Diocletian's reforms were always a series of ad-hoc arrangements, and it was never a case of a Roman unitary state presiding over a series of provinces that you see on maps in standard historical atlases. The "provinces" were really military commands, just as the US government divides the world into, and existing independent city-states such as Athens and Sparta still remained as such, unless specific arrangements were made otherwise, such as the Roman annexation of the Alexandrian successor states. Citizens of Athens and Sparta remained citizens of Athens and Sparta, had to go through immigration and pay customs duties when they visited Italy, magistrates were chosen without interference of the governor, etc.

    By the way, this was also the case in the province of Judea, which remained under the control of the Macabee founded priesthood, which is why Pilate, and the couple of soldiers who accompanied him on his visit to Jerusalem, could do nothing about the conviction of Jesus for blasphemy, an offense under (Sadducee) Jewish but not Roman law, other than ratify his execution under the procedures in place to ensure that no Roman citizens traveling in that area fell victim to local customs, a procedure which later saved St. Paul's life.

    The classical educated British elite were well aware of this dynamic, Toynbee also often discusses it. Over time what happened is that even though these local tribes and cities locally had wide autonomy, their lack of sovereignty, they couldn't make decisions about war and peace, meant that the autonomy was doomed too. Local elites just weren't as interested and Emperors and their aides just couldn't resist sticking their noses into local matters. Eventually you got universal Roman citizenship and then the Soviet style system set up by Diocletian.

    Both the (British) Commonwealth and the European (Common Market) Union were started with this dynamic in mind, but developed in different directions.
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  17. Jason Liu says:

    The Catalan separatists sound like a bunch of snobs who hate the rest of Spain for not being as “progressive” as they are. The whole thing feels like it’s motivated more by SJWism than real nationalism. It’s like if Portland tried to secede. Should you let them, so the country can be free of far-leftists? Or should you deny them, so the left doesn’t get their safe space?

    Maybe let Catalonia go, then a Franco II can go and kick the shit out of them. That’d be nice.

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    • Replies: @Fredrik
    No, they want to secede because of arguments like yours. Franco did a whole lot for Catalan nationalism. Until you realize that you have nothing to add to this discussion.
    , @Seth Largo
    It's quite a bit more complicated. Many left-leaning Catalan artistes, including director Isabel Coixet, have come out against independence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/22/catalonia-independence-referendum-isabel-coixet

    The secessionists yell "fascist!" at the anti-secessionists, but lefty artistes say that can't tell the difference between fascists and the nationalist orientations of the independence movement.
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  18. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @theo the kraut
    Interesting post, just to make sure though I guess you know it, the Catalan nationalists imported around 360.000 Moroccans and 60.000 Pakistanis(!) to aid with their voting endeavours, to teach their children Catalan and fend off the non-Catalan speaking (and unwilling to learn it) Latino immigrants.

    OT--Austria, social democrats hire extra shady Israeli spin doctor to paint their opponents as crazy right wing and to sow discord and confusion. Austrian politics traditionally have been seen as a tad Balkanian-Byzantine in Germany, though as of late we're quite good at that, too. The spin doctor has been jailed in Israel by now.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-austria-election/top-austrian-social-democrat-steps-down-over-election-smear-campaign-idUSKCN1C50PG

    The spin doctor, Tal Silberstein, seems to have been involved in funny doings during the the 2002 Bolivian presidential election:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Brand_Is_Crisis_(2005_film)

    See also https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.806828

    What in the name of buggery are Pakistanis doing in Catalunya?

    - As if the Catalans didn’t have enough Latin American darkie-paupers to choose from.

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  19. This is interesting: I didn’t know that Argentina has more psychologists per capita than any other country.

    [President] Macri wants therapy-obsessed Argentina to pull itself together

    A sense of normality eludes the country that has more psychologists than any other

    They see themselves as perpetual victims, he says. (Mind you, there’s a lot of that these days. Once upon a time, people were ashamed to be victims and tried to avoid being labelled such).

    https://www.ft.com/content/0a10803c-997e-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b?segmentId=6132a895-e068-7ddc-4cec-a1abfa5c8378

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    I knew psychology was big there, but the per capita number was way higher than I expected. Hadn't known about Marci being kidnapped and locked in a coffin.
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  20. Maj. Kong says:

    A rump Spain (also assuming that the Basque bolt next) would be a much more right wing place, while at the same time demolishing the existing right-wing government.

    The Catalans show the failure of only having a civic nationalism, rather than an ethnoreligious movement. They want the monarchy out and Islamists in. And they are abject Europhiles.

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  21. DFH says:

    Funny how alleged nationalists like Richard Spencer seem to hate the idea of Catalan independence so much

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    • Replies: @Lurker
    Funny how alleged nationalist movements can be so pro-EU and mass non-European immigration.

    For example the Scottish Nationalists seem to think there is a problem with immigration into Scotland - there isn't enough of it.
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  22. Miro23 says:

    I was wondering how long it would take for Catalonia to turn up (actually the day of the independence vote!)

    In relation to the Catalan point, if having a bona fide language and not merely a dialectical variant of the country’s main language is the criterion for justifying a nation-state, then Spain would have about 6 to 7 new countries whilst Italy would fragment into perhaps twice as many.

    Not really, as a non-native Spanish speaker , I can understand written and spoken Catalan with some effort, but Basque is completely unintelligible, something like Welsh for an English speaker. Catalan is a dialect of Spanish with some French mixed in.

    But since the Spanish Right also purports to defend the Catholic Spain in the culture wars, it ends up casting itself as a punching bag for the grievances of every weed-smoking co-op buying cat-owning leftie in Catalonia and every other corner of Spain. Such that I have lefty friends in Madrid who are egging on Catalan independence because they hope it will become the incarnation of a Spain they wished to see had the Second Republic triumphed.

    I don’t doubt it, the Civil War seems to be resurfacing in Catalonia.

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    • Replies: @Irishman
    I speak Irish to a strong degree. I can make a decent fist of Scots gaelic, which is only a language if you consider Scots a language. But Welsh is a mystery. As alien as Polish.

    The main reason the Scottish referendum failed was the English vote. A majority of Scottish born voters voted for independence. What may kill Scotland and Wales as separate countries is that their rural areas are being slowly transformed by English settlers who are replacing the natives who are moving to the cities. This is even beginning to happen in Ireland. South-west coast of Ireland is a cut-price Cornwall.

    In Northern Ireland I think the immigrant vote would like to be unionist. But Ulster protestants are the ultimate don't play well with others people which is driving them into political no-mans land. It is said about the Palestinians that they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. This is true about both sides in Ulster.

    , @Daniel H
    >>Catalan is a dialect of Spanish with some French mixed in.

    Catalan in no way can be classified as a dialect of Spanish. It is it's own language entirely. Spanish is probably as close to Italian as it is to Catalan. Catalan and Provencal are closely related to each other. Essentially the same language, but French centralizing tendencies in the 19th century squeezed Provencal into a tiny minority language. Whatever happens between Castile and Catalonia I wish the best of luck for the future prospects of the Catalan language, and I believe that those prospects are good.
    , @Anon

    Not really, as a non-native Spanish speaker , I can understand written and spoken Catalan with some effort, but Basque is completely unintelligible, something like Welsh for an English speaker.
     
    To what extent can you understand French, Italian, or Sicilian?
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  23. Scotland is a nation, not a region.

    But this episide does highlight the profound difference between real democracies, like the UK and Canada, and contintal countries that have larped at democracy for a few decades.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Isn't Scotland (and Wales) sort of LARPing at being a nation?
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  24. jim jones says:

    North Koreans must be the most oppressed people in the planet but you never see them protesting about anything, Europeans are just spoilt.

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    • Replies: @El Dato
    Currently working hard on 1984-ing Europe, just wait.
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  25. Fredrik says:
    @Jason Liu
    The Catalan separatists sound like a bunch of snobs who hate the rest of Spain for not being as "progressive" as they are. The whole thing feels like it's motivated more by SJWism than real nationalism. It's like if Portland tried to secede. Should you let them, so the country can be free of far-leftists? Or should you deny them, so the left doesn't get their safe space?

    Maybe let Catalonia go, then a Franco II can go and kick the shit out of them. That'd be nice.

    No, they want to secede because of arguments like yours. Franco did a whole lot for Catalan nationalism. Until you realize that you have nothing to add to this discussion.

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  26. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Frau Katze
    This is interesting: I didn't know that Argentina has more psychologists per capita than any other country.

    [President] Macri wants therapy-obsessed Argentina to pull itself together

    A sense of normality eludes the country that has more psychologists than any other

    They see themselves as perpetual victims, he says. (Mind you, there's a lot of that these days. Once upon a time, people were ashamed to be victims and tried to avoid being labelled such).

    https://www.ft.com/content/0a10803c-997e-11e7-a652-cde3f882dd7b?segmentId=6132a895-e068-7ddc-4cec-a1abfa5c8378

    I knew psychology was big there, but the per capita number was way higher than I expected. Hadn’t known about Marci being kidnapped and locked in a coffin.

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  27. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @jimmyriddle
    Scotland is a nation, not a region.

    But this episide does highlight the profound difference between real democracies, like the UK and Canada, and contintal countries that have larped at democracy for a few decades.

    Isn’t Scotland (and Wales) sort of LARPing at being a nation?

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    • LOL: Opinionator
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  28. @Aristippus
    A few years ago during grad school I was studying abroad in the UK and wound up hanging out with the Erasmus undergrad EU crowd. Interestingly, the young Spanish men from the Catalan region were all strongly for independence. The women didn't seem to care too much. One of my flatmates, from Valencia, slept with the most vocal proponent of Catalan nationalism and later complained that Catalonian independence was all he cared about. It would be very interesting to see what the gender split is in the polling.

    I wouldn’t have known Catalan independence was serious except that a few years ago my sister had dated a guy who was going home to Barcelona for Christmas.

    My sister e-mailed him and asked how it was going in Spain. To my sister’s confusion he snapped back angrily, “I’m not in Spain. I’m in Barcelona.”

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  29. @RomanCandle
    Kind of surprised you made a post about Catalan nationalism and didn't mention FC Barcelona, employer of Lionel Messi and one of the most famous soccer teams in the world. During the Franco dictatorship, cheering Barca was the only legal outlet for patriotism the Catalans had.

    It would be like discussing Texan culture without mentioning the Dallas Cowboys.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mZ7fvc4rNA&t=493s

    Texas culture is about high school and college football. Most native white Texans don‘t care that much about the Cowboys. Even 10 years ago I remember people in Fort Wort telling me that the players were all coke addicts and that today’s Cowboys were a far cry from the Landry/Staubach teams they had rooted for in the past.

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  30. El Dato says:
    @jim jones
    North Koreans must be the most oppressed people in the planet but you never see them protesting about anything, Europeans are just spoilt.

    Currently working hard on 1984-ing Europe, just wait.

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  31. IanM says:

    pursued a policy of encouraging immigration to Spain by Latin Americans, virtually none of whom speak Catalan.

    … and most of them settled outside Catalonia. It was a policy encouraged by the socialist party, as usual, in order to increase their votes. It’s very easy for a Latin American to claim and obtain the Spanish citizenship. On the contrary, the lion’s share of immigration in Catalonia goes to Morocco and Pakistan. If you speak Urdu or Arabic, it’s a minor question for you to decide between Catalan and Spanish. Most of the Islamic population in Catalonia is aligned with the secessionists, because they reason it will be easy to impose Sharia in a smaller country.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    This is yet another reason I hate, loath, abominate, despise etc the EU.

    If any two-bit lefty ass-clown EU state is dumb and evil enough to run an 'open-doors' all-in third world immigration policy, then, as a matter of course, *all* other EU member states are burdened with the effects - and there isn't a damned thing 'legally' or otherwise they can do about it.

    This is the central contradictory conceit at the heart of the EU. Enoch's comment that either a nation is sovereign or it isn't.

    I just wish that more people could understand this basic, basic logical/international relations point. I mean, it's not rocket science, it's pretty elemental.
    , @Anonymous
    One thing I've noticed is that Pakistani immigrants to Europe are hardly ever 'workers' in the sense of grunts grafting at working-class laboring work of the kind that builds nations.

    Invariably they are some of useless pizza worker, cab-driver, trinket-seller etc.
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  32. Andrew M says:

    Why are Northern Italian regionalists (Lega Lombarda–Lega Nord) very much not cool with the NYT?

    Because Africa starts at Rome. There’s a noticeable racial gap between northern and southern Italians. The northerners look like white Europeans, the southerners are olive-skinned North Africans (think John Travolta or Sylvester Stallone).

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    • Replies: @Fredrik
    Italians in the US are Southeners
    , @Niccolo Salo
    With all due respect, you are a fucking idiot.
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  33. LondonBob says:

    Would be fun to see Barcelona kicked out of the Spanish football league and descend into the obscurity of some Catalan league.

    Of course Cameron actively encouraged Irish citizens to vote no in the EU referendum. I wonder what the yes margin would have been had Irish and Commonwealth people not been allowed to vote, a substantially larger margin of victory no doubt as there were 1.6 million in the country. Why non British subjects are allowed to vote, especially by a purportedly conservative government I don’t know, if only we had a Trump.

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  34. @anon
    Does Catalonia plan to remain in the EU, use the Euro, and NATO after they get independence? Let's assume yes. In that case, there isn't all that much left for their new independent country to do, except the local stuff that it does now.

    In terms of what is currently handled locally and what is done by the country -- that could be negotiated without independence. Scotland has been given more powers prior to their losing referendum. That seemed to make them happier for a while. Plus they have their own Parliament Building and elected representatives who talk a lot. It became rather obvious that there was really nothing remaining to be decided -- I don't think they were too keen on enacting additional taxes. That is the fun part -- spending other people's money.

    The US state map has been static for a century. It is unthinkable for the occasional border county to flip to its adjacent state. It wouldn't make much difference but a state simply wouldn't tolerate it. For that matter, the typical US County has a County Seat, Courthouse, and various official duties. I've never heard of even a County being redivided.

    Whatever might change in Catalonia if it got its independence -- I doubt if it would be worth fighting and dying for. After you have outsourced your currency, your military, your tariffs, and your immigration policy -- all thats left is the boring local paperwork.

    Catalonia is precisely the reason why Scottish independence was likely to have seen Scottish EU accession blocked, Spain would have vetoed it. Current rules accession IIRC require all existing members to approve.

    OTOH, if the EU changed the rules and allowed Catalonia in, there’d be an immediate crisis with Spain. The Spanish government might (like Greece) have put up with mass youth unemployment to stay in the euro, but chopping a bit off Spain? The Basques would be next in line, then you have the two most productive areas of Spain gone.

    RomanCandle – “Barcelona soccer club has made a killing marketing itself as a sort of anti-Spain”

    Great post btw, the varied interests and expertise of the Unz commentariat never fails to amaze.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    While backpacking around Europe in 1980, I met an Australian law student in Switzerland. He told me he'd been in Barcelona shortly before and heard a huge racket in the distance. Eventually he wandered over to find out what all the noise was about and found tens of thousands of people leaving a free Clash concert, presumably in honor of George Orwell. We commiserated together on his bad luck.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Nothing against Spain, but I suppose I'd be happy for the Basques and Catalans if they both secede and become independent countries. I just hope that they can so peacefully.

    I'd also hope that the numerous new small ethnostates and the larger original countries have the sense to sign a mutual defense agreement and a favorable trade agreement with each other, including Catalan-Spain and Basqueland-Spain-France. Give sovereignty and the pride of cultural independence to each people who wants it and can peacefully coexist with its neighbors, without giving up the man benefits of the current bonds in a single country and in the EU.

    For the same reason, i would hope the new countries would not just defeat the whole purpose by applying to re join the damn EU. Anyone know the sense of the people there re being truly independent or effectively staying in the EU as smaller members?
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  35. M_Young says:

    “Catalan is a dialect of Spanish with some French mixed in.”

    No, it’s not. Anymore than English is a dialect of Low German or even Friesian with “some French mixed in”.

    The commentator who wrote that this is SJW nationalism is correct. It certainly has zero to do with anti-immigration…the Catalans are quite aware that Latina American (‘sudaca’ to use the derogatory term) immigrants don’t learn Catalan, and Moroccan and other immigrants prefer to learn Spanish (a world language) before Catalan. But they don’t seem to care, at least the ones now pushing independence don’t. In fact, following so closely on the major attacks on Barcelona, this seems like a diversion of natural, justified ‘hate’ towards the Spanish state.

    At any rate, the Catalan language is as well protected legally in Catalunya (SJW spelling) as French is in Quebec.

    Catalonia has an interesting California connection. Most of the major players in early California settlement were what would be called ‘Catalan’ today. That starts with Junipero Serra and works on down to Portola, Peralta, Crespi, and Yorba (all Catalan names). The ‘Catalan volunteers’ formed to bulk of the military component of the Portola expedition. But the only place name I know of they lef is Montserrat in the 951.

    This was actually an innovation…Aragon (the Kingdom Catalonia was part of) was kept out of New World settlement for a long time, untill the reforms of Carlos III (Aragon actually had quite its own empire in the Med for a while). That’s why you don’t hear a lot of Catalan names in many Latin American countries, but you do in places that remained part of Spain — Cuba, PR — after the first wave of independence. Pujols, for example, is a proto-typical Catalan name.

    Anyhoo, I leave you with this work by the greatest Catalan ever (besides Jose Ferrer), Xavier Cougat.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    Weinreich, the compiler of the leading Yiddish dictionary, said that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. In other words, there is no bright line between a "language" and a "dialect".
    , @Miro23

    “Catalan is a dialect of Spanish with some French mixed in.”

    No, it’s not. Anymore than English is a dialect of Low German or even Friesian with “some French mixed in”.
     

    Wikipedia: "... the dialects or varieties of a particular language are closely related and, despite their differences, are most often largely mutually intelligible"

    That's my experience. I speak Spanish and can understand Catalan fairly easily. On the other hand, Basque is a distinct language that is completely unintelligible.

    , @BB753
    Also from the Catalan - speaking Balearic Isles, like Saint Junipero Serra, you have George Farragut, father of Civil War admiral David Farragut.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Farragut
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Farragut
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  36. Steve Sailer wrote:

    The Catalans want to conduct a secession referendum on Sunday, although the Spanish government has banned it. I don’t have an opinion on the subject: this qualifies as not my problem. I wish all involved the best, but I don’t know what that would be.

    Seems pretty simple to me. The Eurocrats and the global elite in general oppose Catalan independence. And, the Spanish police are currently shooting people with rubber bullets for the terrorist activity of voting.

    I’m with the Catalans. I do not know how well they will do for themselves in the long run, but seems to me it ought to be their choice — just like Brexit.

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    • Replies: @Nico
    One need not be a demon to be wrong, nor an angel to be correct. A good rule of thumb is that thnic irredentism and separatism is always bad unless it is a Christian people pulling away from Muslim overlords; it always divides resources and brings down trade empires. The objection to the E.U. is NOT that a project for European cooperation is bad but that as conceived the union does nothing but ram swarthy immigrants, burdensome regulations and untenable monetary dictates down its constituent countries' throats. The Eurocrats should be taking the side of the Catalan leaders, whose yuppy self-hating white-assed leaders will no doubt immediately petition to rejoin the EU as a separate, weaker pawn, but the union's nominal obligations to its member states prevents them from openly defying the Spanish government's position on internal affairs not related to Muslims, other brown people or homosexuals. Classic divide and conquer.
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  37. dearieme says:

    Decades ago I had two acquaintances, one Portuguese the other northern Italian, who could understand quite a lot of what the other said on commonplace topics. For anything advanced they found it easier to talk in English.

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  38. Brabantian says: • Website

    Self-determination for Catalan or other peoples seems to be a right per the much-ignored UN Charter which Spain has signed … A UN Charter which also leads one to ‘stand with Israel’ in support of the rights of Kurds to have their own nation … ditto the Chechens chafing in Russia, the Uighurs or Tibetans in China too, USA ‘states’ … yet it’s notable that:

    Catalonia has a great many very special ties to Israel & Mossad, a huge amount of commercial & security links, police training, research projects, military export trade, thousands of Jewish students visiting … detailed by Aangirfan on her site in her article on the ‘Barcelona False Flag’. Also see article on Catalonia the Newest European Kosher State.

    Catalonia’s government website says, “From the Catalan Government Trade & Investment office in Tel-Aviv, you get tailor-made information & full support for a smooth, fast and successful set-up of operations in Catalonia from start to finish.”

    Canadian dissident Jew Henry Makow, argues that Jewish elites are bitterly divided between Soros-type globalists, & nationalist-Zionists like Netanyahu … who play very cleverly on the populist emotions in support of nationalist self-determination, encouraging all nationalists to be friends of Israel … Netanyahu has even been allying with Viktor Orbán in Hungary, as well as with the Kurds in Iraq-Syria-Iran-Turkey, and with Catalonia in Spain … This is a very clever card to play, much more clever than the tiresome globalist Soros themes

    Here, two photos, the first with Catalan President Carles Puigdemont & Jewish-Russian billionaire Shimon Aminov, also including ‘Putin’s rabbi’ from Moscow Chabad, Berel Lazar, in the group; second photo is previous Catalan leader Artur Mas with Shimon Peres

    Read More
    • LOL: IHTG
    • Replies: @Jack D
    I was glad to see an iSteve post that didn't have an (anti) Jewish angle to it but I see now that EVERYTHING (even Catalonian independence) can be made to have a Jewish angle to it, despite the fact that there are essentially no Jews in Catalonia.
    , @Heros
    Thank you Brabantian, I knew that the cabal was somehow at the center of this but I was lacking this information.

    I will also tie this in to a recent change in Spanish law that allows any Jew, who claims Spanish ancestry or some other link, to claim Spanish Citizenship. They don't even have to speak Spanish.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/11/spain-law-citizenship-jews

    "to atone for its past harsh treatment of Jews"

    This could also tie into Gibraltar, which is basically a Jewish money laundering colony. There are about a half-dozen synagogue s there.

    http://haruth.com/jw/JewsGibraltar.html

    If Gibraltar breaks off from England, it could also become physically or just practically a part of Israel. But that is not enough, so to me the real question how is the breakup of Spain good for the Jews? Or are the Jews starting to fear the break up of Israel?

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  39. Jack D says:
    @anon
    Does Catalonia plan to remain in the EU, use the Euro, and NATO after they get independence? Let's assume yes. In that case, there isn't all that much left for their new independent country to do, except the local stuff that it does now.

    In terms of what is currently handled locally and what is done by the country -- that could be negotiated without independence. Scotland has been given more powers prior to their losing referendum. That seemed to make them happier for a while. Plus they have their own Parliament Building and elected representatives who talk a lot. It became rather obvious that there was really nothing remaining to be decided -- I don't think they were too keen on enacting additional taxes. That is the fun part -- spending other people's money.

    The US state map has been static for a century. It is unthinkable for the occasional border county to flip to its adjacent state. It wouldn't make much difference but a state simply wouldn't tolerate it. For that matter, the typical US County has a County Seat, Courthouse, and various official duties. I've never heard of even a County being redivided.

    Whatever might change in Catalonia if it got its independence -- I doubt if it would be worth fighting and dying for. After you have outsourced your currency, your military, your tariffs, and your immigration policy -- all thats left is the boring local paperwork.

    It was not unusual up to the late 19th century in the US for counties to split in two so that the county seat would be less distant. OTOH when NYC was unified in 1898 five counties came under one umbrella.

    Read More
    • Replies: @slumber_j

    OTOH when NYC was unified in 1898 five counties came under one umbrella.
     
    That's certainly not the case now (each borough is coterminous with a county: New York, Kings, Queens, Richmond and Bronx), and I don't think it ever has been.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boroughs_of_New_York_City#Changes_after_1898
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  40. Nico says:
    @PhysicistDave
    Steve Sailer wrote:

    The Catalans want to conduct a secession referendum on Sunday, although the Spanish government has banned it. I don’t have an opinion on the subject: this qualifies as not my problem. I wish all involved the best, but I don’t know what that would be.
     
    Seems pretty simple to me. The Eurocrats and the global elite in general oppose Catalan independence. And, the Spanish police are currently shooting people with rubber bullets for the terrorist activity of voting.

    I'm with the Catalans. I do not know how well they will do for themselves in the long run, but seems to me it ought to be their choice -- just like Brexit.

    One need not be a demon to be wrong, nor an angel to be correct. A good rule of thumb is that thnic irredentism and separatism is always bad unless it is a Christian people pulling away from Muslim overlords; it always divides resources and brings down trade empires. The objection to the E.U. is NOT that a project for European cooperation is bad but that as conceived the union does nothing but ram swarthy immigrants, burdensome regulations and untenable monetary dictates down its constituent countries’ throats. The Eurocrats should be taking the side of the Catalan leaders, whose yuppy self-hating white-assed leaders will no doubt immediately petition to rejoin the EU as a separate, weaker pawn, but the union’s nominal obligations to its member states prevents them from openly defying the Spanish government’s position on internal affairs not related to Muslims, other brown people or homosexuals. Classic divide and conquer.

    Read More
    • Agree: TomSchmidt
    • Replies: @DFH

    A good rule of thumb is that thnic irredentism and separatism is always bad unless it is a Christian people pulling away from Muslim overlords; it always divides resources and brings down trade empires.
     
    Almost the exact opposite of the truth. Empires are bad for everyone except oligarchs
    , @PhysicistDave
    Nico wrote to me:

    One need not be a demon to be wrong, nor an angel to be correct. A good rule of thumb is that thnic irredentism and separatism is always bad unless it is a Christian people pulling away from Muslim overlords; it always divides resources and brings down trade empires.
     
    Irredentism and separatism are, I think, rather different animals.

    Personally, I will go with the old-fashioned "principle of subsidiarity": there ought to be a strong bias in favor of government that is closer to the people.

    Yes, I know that local government can sometimes be just as oppressive as centralized government: I am a Thoreauist anarchist -- I trust no government, ever. But, if nothing else, it is easier to escape from low-level governments (i.e., move).

    And, a diversity of governments within a region allows for variety and experimentation -- that was, after all, the historical experience of Europe, before the EU.

    (Anyone interested in the broader historical implications should read Robert Wesson's The Imperial Order and State Systems: International Pluralism, Politics, and Culture: Professor Wesson convinced me.)
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  41. @YetAnotherAnon
    Catalonia is precisely the reason why Scottish independence was likely to have seen Scottish EU accession blocked, Spain would have vetoed it. Current rules accession IIRC require all existing members to approve.

    OTOH, if the EU changed the rules and allowed Catalonia in, there'd be an immediate crisis with Spain. The Spanish government might (like Greece) have put up with mass youth unemployment to stay in the euro, but chopping a bit off Spain? The Basques would be next in line, then you have the two most productive areas of Spain gone.

    RomanCandle - "Barcelona soccer club has made a killing marketing itself as a sort of anti-Spain"

    Great post btw, the varied interests and expertise of the Unz commentariat never fails to amaze.

    While backpacking around Europe in 1980, I met an Australian law student in Switzerland. He told me he’d been in Barcelona shortly before and heard a huge racket in the distance. Eventually he wandered over to find out what all the noise was about and found tens of thousands of people leaving a free Clash concert, presumably in honor of George Orwell. We commiserated together on his bad luck.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt
    Catalan government workers are now squaring off against the Madrid government workers. A group of Catalan firefighters has displayed tremendous courage and bravery to protect their people. These great firefighters have an instinct to protect and defend -- from fire, trauma or tyranny!

    I have been waiting for the split between government workers for years in the United States. And not just leprechaun cops and firefighters in Boston or New York brawling, they do that for fun. I am talking about government workers refusing to be evil scum that do the bidding of vile plutocrats and tyrants!

    Watch this small spark of defiance grow in strength. Watch how the Catalan firefighters made a wall of patriotism to face down the zombie Madrid government workers. This is great stuff:

    https://twitter.com/Butterfly_Reb/status/914539919246348288
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  42. unit472 says:

    Florida carved new counties out of existing ones pretty often.

    As to Catalonia if it does become independent perhaps the United States could offer to return Puerto Rico to Spain. This would afford Spain the potent influence of 5 million ( soon to be 6) Spanish voters in US elections.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    Speaking of independence, now would be a really great time to give Puerto Rico independence. It could be a "Nixon goes to China" moment for Trump. We could even give them a few billion as a goodbye present. Of course, Puerto Ricans would no longer be US citizens or have right of residence in the US, but that's a natural consequence of having your own country.
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  43. @RomanCandle
    Kind of surprised you made a post about Catalan nationalism and didn't mention FC Barcelona, employer of Lionel Messi and one of the most famous soccer teams in the world. During the Franco dictatorship, cheering Barca was the only legal outlet for patriotism the Catalans had.

    It would be like discussing Texan culture without mentioning the Dallas Cowboys.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mZ7fvc4rNA&t=493s

    @ Roman Candle

    And yet when the chairman of Barcelona FC came out recently in favour of the illegal referendum, his press conference speech was entirely in English!

    Catalan language and heritage takes a back seat when the occasion demands it.

    Read More
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  44. Jack D says:
    @Brabantian
    Self-determination for Catalan or other peoples seems to be a right per the much-ignored UN Charter which Spain has signed ... A UN Charter which also leads one to 'stand with Israel' in support of the rights of Kurds to have their own nation ... ditto the Chechens chafing in Russia, the Uighurs or Tibetans in China too, USA 'states' ... yet it's notable that:

    Catalonia has a great many very special ties to Israel & Mossad, a huge amount of commercial & security links, police training, research projects, military export trade, thousands of Jewish students visiting ... detailed by Aangirfan on her site in her article on the 'Barcelona False Flag'. Also see article on Catalonia the Newest European Kosher State.

    Catalonia's government website says, "From the Catalan Government Trade & Investment office in Tel-Aviv, you get tailor-made information & full support for a smooth, fast and successful set-up of operations in Catalonia from start to finish."

    Canadian dissident Jew Henry Makow, argues that Jewish elites are bitterly divided between Soros-type globalists, & nationalist-Zionists like Netanyahu ... who play very cleverly on the populist emotions in support of nationalist self-determination, encouraging all nationalists to be friends of Israel ... Netanyahu has even been allying with Viktor Orbán in Hungary, as well as with the Kurds in Iraq-Syria-Iran-Turkey, and with Catalonia in Spain ... This is a very clever card to play, much more clever than the tiresome globalist Soros themes

    Here, two photos, the first with Catalan President Carles Puigdemont & Jewish-Russian billionaire Shimon Aminov, also including 'Putin's rabbi' from Moscow Chabad, Berel Lazar, in the group; second photo is previous Catalan leader Artur Mas with Shimon Peres
    http://www.chabad.org/media/images/1014/VEWC10144422.jpg
    https://i1.wp.com/elrobotpescador.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/2.jpg

    I was glad to see an iSteve post that didn’t have an (anti) Jewish angle to it but I see now that EVERYTHING (even Catalonian independence) can be made to have a Jewish angle to it, despite the fact that there are essentially no Jews in Catalonia.

    Read More
    • LOL: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @AM

    I was glad to see an iSteve post that didn’t have an (anti) Jewish angle to it but I see now that EVERYTHING (even Catalonian independence) can be made to have a Jewish angle to it, despite the fact that there are essentially no Jews in Catalonia.
     
    sigh

    How many years of Steve's posts have nothing to do with Jews? Nobody is more obsessed with the JQ than the Jews themselves.
    , @Muhmud
    And I was hoping for an isteve post that didn't have an anti Muslim angle. But what else do you expect from a WN site?
    , @daniel le mouche
    Of course, no Jews in Catalunya, where Barcelona's main hill is called Mont Juic.
    , @Moshe
    Look man, it's Jews all the way down...

    Hate us or Love us they're absolutely fascinated by us.

    It's like how blacks are obsessed with whites.
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  45. Jack D says:
    @M_Young
    "Catalan is a dialect of Spanish with some French mixed in."

    No, it's not. Anymore than English is a dialect of Low German or even Friesian with "some French mixed in".

    The commentator who wrote that this is SJW nationalism is correct. It certainly has zero to do with anti-immigration...the Catalans are quite aware that Latina American ('sudaca' to use the derogatory term) immigrants don't learn Catalan, and Moroccan and other immigrants prefer to learn Spanish (a world language) before Catalan. But they don't seem to care, at least the ones now pushing independence don't. In fact, following so closely on the major attacks on Barcelona, this seems like a diversion of natural, justified 'hate' towards the Spanish state.

    At any rate, the Catalan language is as well protected legally in Catalunya (SJW spelling) as French is in Quebec.

    Catalonia has an interesting California connection. Most of the major players in early California settlement were what would be called 'Catalan' today. That starts with Junipero Serra and works on down to Portola, Peralta, Crespi, and Yorba (all Catalan names). The 'Catalan volunteers' formed to bulk of the military component of the Portola expedition. But the only place name I know of they lef is Montserrat in the 951.

    This was actually an innovation...Aragon (the Kingdom Catalonia was part of) was kept out of New World settlement for a long time, untill the reforms of Carlos III (Aragon actually had quite its own empire in the Med for a while). That's why you don't hear a lot of Catalan names in many Latin American countries, but you do in places that remained part of Spain -- Cuba, PR -- after the first wave of independence. Pujols, for example, is a proto-typical Catalan name.

    Anyhoo, I leave you with this work by the greatest Catalan ever (besides Jose Ferrer), Xavier Cougat.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haaO8Xxa6n0

    Weinreich, the compiler of the leading Yiddish dictionary, said that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy. In other words, there is no bright line between a “language” and a “dialect”.

    Read More
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  46. Jack D says:
    @unit472
    Florida carved new counties out of existing ones pretty often.

    As to Catalonia if it does become independent perhaps the United States could offer to return Puerto Rico to Spain. This would afford Spain the potent influence of 5 million ( soon to be 6) Spanish voters in US elections.

    Speaking of independence, now would be a really great time to give Puerto Rico independence. It could be a “Nixon goes to China” moment for Trump. We could even give them a few billion as a goodbye present. Of course, Puerto Ricans would no longer be US citizens or have right of residence in the US, but that’s a natural consequence of having your own country.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
    Interestingly, I've noticed that ABC nightly news has made a point of referring to the Puerto Ricans as "American citizens" in virtually every broadcast since the last hurricane. I presume this is to try to drum up anti-Trump feelings as in "Isn't MAGA also helping our American brethre?."

    But I totally agree; set them free and wash our hands of this century old colonial Spanish speaking relic.

    The food stamp savings alone makes this a worthwhile political endeavor.
    , @EdwardM
    I've never understood why this isn't in every Republican platform. It seems like a no-brainer. Isn't colonialism bad? Shouldn't we let the noble people of Puerto Rico remove the yoke of their white oppressors?

    Le them establish their own currency and laws (or keep the dollar without requiring action from us, like Ecuador, though I would assume they'd want their own currency to improve their competitiveness) and join NAFTA. And we keep our military base like in Cuba (whoops, we already abandoned that). As painful as it would be, I might even be willing to accept some sort of cash compensation in the form of debt relief or purchase. Not that we need to -- we could just as easily grant them independence unilaterally and tell them to pound sand.

    The fact that the left typically doesn't advocate PR independence seems like yet another example of their hypocrisy -- self-determination and anti-colonialism are human rights, except when it means abandoning the massive welfare teat.
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  47. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @IanM

    pursued a policy of encouraging immigration to Spain by Latin Americans, virtually none of whom speak Catalan.
     
    ... and most of them settled outside Catalonia. It was a policy encouraged by the socialist party, as usual, in order to increase their votes. It's very easy for a Latin American to claim and obtain the Spanish citizenship. On the contrary, the lion's share of immigration in Catalonia goes to Morocco and Pakistan. If you speak Urdu or Arabic, it's a minor question for you to decide between Catalan and Spanish. Most of the Islamic population in Catalonia is aligned with the secessionists, because they reason it will be easy to impose Sharia in a smaller country.

    This is yet another reason I hate, loath, abominate, despise etc the EU.

    If any two-bit lefty ass-clown EU state is dumb and evil enough to run an ‘open-doors’ all-in third world immigration policy, then, as a matter of course, *all* other EU member states are burdened with the effects – and there isn’t a damned thing ‘legally’ or otherwise they can do about it.

    This is the central contradictory conceit at the heart of the EU. Enoch’s comment that either a nation is sovereign or it isn’t.

    I just wish that more people could understand this basic, basic logical/international relations point. I mean, it’s not rocket science, it’s pretty elemental.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Three cheers for Boris Johnson!!!!

    The 'Churchill' of our times.
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  48. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @IanM

    pursued a policy of encouraging immigration to Spain by Latin Americans, virtually none of whom speak Catalan.
     
    ... and most of them settled outside Catalonia. It was a policy encouraged by the socialist party, as usual, in order to increase their votes. It's very easy for a Latin American to claim and obtain the Spanish citizenship. On the contrary, the lion's share of immigration in Catalonia goes to Morocco and Pakistan. If you speak Urdu or Arabic, it's a minor question for you to decide between Catalan and Spanish. Most of the Islamic population in Catalonia is aligned with the secessionists, because they reason it will be easy to impose Sharia in a smaller country.

    One thing I’ve noticed is that Pakistani immigrants to Europe are hardly ever ‘workers’ in the sense of grunts grafting at working-class laboring work of the kind that builds nations.

    Invariably they are some of useless pizza worker, cab-driver, trinket-seller etc.

    Read More
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  49. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    This is yet another reason I hate, loath, abominate, despise etc the EU.

    If any two-bit lefty ass-clown EU state is dumb and evil enough to run an 'open-doors' all-in third world immigration policy, then, as a matter of course, *all* other EU member states are burdened with the effects - and there isn't a damned thing 'legally' or otherwise they can do about it.

    This is the central contradictory conceit at the heart of the EU. Enoch's comment that either a nation is sovereign or it isn't.

    I just wish that more people could understand this basic, basic logical/international relations point. I mean, it's not rocket science, it's pretty elemental.

    Three cheers for Boris Johnson!!!!

    The ‘Churchill’ of our times.

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  50. jim jones says:

    Catalan Independence livestream, people seem to be in a happy mood:

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  51. Irishman says:
    @Miro23
    I was wondering how long it would take for Catalonia to turn up (actually the day of the independence vote!)

    In relation to the Catalan point, if having a bona fide language and not merely a dialectical variant of the country’s main language is the criterion for justifying a nation-state, then Spain would have about 6 to 7 new countries whilst Italy would fragment into perhaps twice as many.
     
    Not really, as a non-native Spanish speaker , I can understand written and spoken Catalan with some effort, but Basque is completely unintelligible, something like Welsh for an English speaker. Catalan is a dialect of Spanish with some French mixed in.

    But since the Spanish Right also purports to defend the Catholic Spain in the culture wars, it ends up casting itself as a punching bag for the grievances of every weed-smoking co-op buying cat-owning leftie in Catalonia and every other corner of Spain. Such that I have lefty friends in Madrid who are egging on Catalan independence because they hope it will become the incarnation of a Spain they wished to see had the Second Republic triumphed.
     
    I don't doubt it, the Civil War seems to be resurfacing in Catalonia.

    I speak Irish to a strong degree. I can make a decent fist of Scots gaelic, which is only a language if you consider Scots a language. But Welsh is a mystery. As alien as Polish.

    The main reason the Scottish referendum failed was the English vote. A majority of Scottish born voters voted for independence. What may kill Scotland and Wales as separate countries is that their rural areas are being slowly transformed by English settlers who are replacing the natives who are moving to the cities. This is even beginning to happen in Ireland. South-west coast of Ireland is a cut-price Cornwall.

    In Northern Ireland I think the immigrant vote would like to be unionist. But Ulster protestants are the ultimate don’t play well with others people which is driving them into political no-mans land. It is said about the Palestinians that they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. This is true about both sides in Ulster.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    You obviously don't live in Scotland, and it shows. No serious observer has claimed that the Independence vote was lost because of the English vote. The latter is just too small.
    Native Scots are not drifting to the Cities. Indeed, Scotland has been a highly urbanised since before WWI, unlike Ireland where the rural population has been significant until quite recently.
    Those English settling in Scotland tend to settle in urban and suburban areas, where nearly all Scots live. Surprisingly, a considerable number are in favour of Independence. In fact, I personally know several who are.
    As regards Ireland, it is obvious that there is a contrast between an increasingly secular Republic of Ireland and a much less secular Northern Ireland. But there are other instances in Europe, for example Spain and Portugal. Northern Ireland is not unique.
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  52. Miro23 says:
    @M_Young
    "Catalan is a dialect of Spanish with some French mixed in."

    No, it's not. Anymore than English is a dialect of Low German or even Friesian with "some French mixed in".

    The commentator who wrote that this is SJW nationalism is correct. It certainly has zero to do with anti-immigration...the Catalans are quite aware that Latina American ('sudaca' to use the derogatory term) immigrants don't learn Catalan, and Moroccan and other immigrants prefer to learn Spanish (a world language) before Catalan. But they don't seem to care, at least the ones now pushing independence don't. In fact, following so closely on the major attacks on Barcelona, this seems like a diversion of natural, justified 'hate' towards the Spanish state.

    At any rate, the Catalan language is as well protected legally in Catalunya (SJW spelling) as French is in Quebec.

    Catalonia has an interesting California connection. Most of the major players in early California settlement were what would be called 'Catalan' today. That starts with Junipero Serra and works on down to Portola, Peralta, Crespi, and Yorba (all Catalan names). The 'Catalan volunteers' formed to bulk of the military component of the Portola expedition. But the only place name I know of they lef is Montserrat in the 951.

    This was actually an innovation...Aragon (the Kingdom Catalonia was part of) was kept out of New World settlement for a long time, untill the reforms of Carlos III (Aragon actually had quite its own empire in the Med for a while). That's why you don't hear a lot of Catalan names in many Latin American countries, but you do in places that remained part of Spain -- Cuba, PR -- after the first wave of independence. Pujols, for example, is a proto-typical Catalan name.

    Anyhoo, I leave you with this work by the greatest Catalan ever (besides Jose Ferrer), Xavier Cougat.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haaO8Xxa6n0

    “Catalan is a dialect of Spanish with some French mixed in.”

    No, it’s not. Anymore than English is a dialect of Low German or even Friesian with “some French mixed in”.

    Wikipedia: “… the dialects or varieties of a particular language are closely related and, despite their differences, are most often largely mutually intelligible”

    That’s my experience. I speak Spanish and can understand Catalan fairly easily. On the other hand, Basque is a distinct language that is completely unintelligible.

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  53. AM says:
    @Jack D
    I was glad to see an iSteve post that didn't have an (anti) Jewish angle to it but I see now that EVERYTHING (even Catalonian independence) can be made to have a Jewish angle to it, despite the fact that there are essentially no Jews in Catalonia.

    I was glad to see an iSteve post that didn’t have an (anti) Jewish angle to it but I see now that EVERYTHING (even Catalonian independence) can be made to have a Jewish angle to it, despite the fact that there are essentially no Jews in Catalonia.

    sigh

    How many years of Steve’s posts have nothing to do with Jews? Nobody is more obsessed with the JQ than the Jews themselves.

    Read More
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  54. prosa123 says: • Website
    @anon
    Does Catalonia plan to remain in the EU, use the Euro, and NATO after they get independence? Let's assume yes. In that case, there isn't all that much left for their new independent country to do, except the local stuff that it does now.

    In terms of what is currently handled locally and what is done by the country -- that could be negotiated without independence. Scotland has been given more powers prior to their losing referendum. That seemed to make them happier for a while. Plus they have their own Parliament Building and elected representatives who talk a lot. It became rather obvious that there was really nothing remaining to be decided -- I don't think they were too keen on enacting additional taxes. That is the fun part -- spending other people's money.

    The US state map has been static for a century. It is unthinkable for the occasional border county to flip to its adjacent state. It wouldn't make much difference but a state simply wouldn't tolerate it. For that matter, the typical US County has a County Seat, Courthouse, and various official duties. I've never heard of even a County being redivided.

    Whatever might change in Catalonia if it got its independence -- I doubt if it would be worth fighting and dying for. After you have outsourced your currency, your military, your tariffs, and your immigration policy -- all thats left is the boring local paperwork.

    “For that matter, the typical US County has a County Seat, Courthouse, and various official duties. I’ve never heard of even a County being redivided.”

    There was some county-shuffling outside of Denver about 10 or 15 years ago.

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  55. slumber_j says:
    @Jack D
    It was not unusual up to the late 19th century in the US for counties to split in two so that the county seat would be less distant. OTOH when NYC was unified in 1898 five counties came under one umbrella.

    OTOH when NYC was unified in 1898 five counties came under one umbrella.

    That’s certainly not the case now (each borough is coterminous with a county: New York, Kings, Queens, Richmond and Bronx), and I don’t think it ever has been.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boroughs_of_New_York_City#Changes_after_1898

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    While the boroughs (counties) still exist and have courthouses, deed records, etc. the real power is in City Hall, not at the county level. The big decisions are made by the mayor and city council.
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  56. slumber_j says:
    @anon
    Does Catalonia plan to remain in the EU, use the Euro, and NATO after they get independence? Let's assume yes. In that case, there isn't all that much left for their new independent country to do, except the local stuff that it does now.

    In terms of what is currently handled locally and what is done by the country -- that could be negotiated without independence. Scotland has been given more powers prior to their losing referendum. That seemed to make them happier for a while. Plus they have their own Parliament Building and elected representatives who talk a lot. It became rather obvious that there was really nothing remaining to be decided -- I don't think they were too keen on enacting additional taxes. That is the fun part -- spending other people's money.

    The US state map has been static for a century. It is unthinkable for the occasional border county to flip to its adjacent state. It wouldn't make much difference but a state simply wouldn't tolerate it. For that matter, the typical US County has a County Seat, Courthouse, and various official duties. I've never heard of even a County being redivided.

    Whatever might change in Catalonia if it got its independence -- I doubt if it would be worth fighting and dying for. After you have outsourced your currency, your military, your tariffs, and your immigration policy -- all thats left is the boring local paperwork.

    Fun Nutmeg-State fact: for all but geographical purposes, Connecticut dissolved its eight counties in 1960.

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  57. ic1000 says:

    Consistency is probably the biggest advantage of holding to a policy of anti-irredentism. Irredentist claims such as those discussed in the (admirably informative) post and (impressive for the same reason) comments are almost always messy.

    The division of assets and border-drawing between Czechia and Slovakia was unusual for its civility and non-violence.

    Living within the range of a CBC TV station at the time, I followed the career of Rene Leveque and the ups and downs of the PQ with some interest. An amusing sidebar to Quebec separatism was the stance of the province’s First Nations. The tribes are low as a fraction of the citizenry, but have vast landholdings in the north. These include most of the watershed of Hydro-Quebec’s network of dams and power stations, the linchpin of the giant scheme to generate electricity and export it to the US Northeast.

    These Indians had no interest in learning a second or third language and becoming a part of North America’s Francophone community. If Quebec wants to secede from Canada, we will hold our own vote, the leaders threatened. There was no doubt as to the outcome in the sparsely-populated north, which would have resulted in a majority of Quebec’s landmass petitioning for re-accession to Anglophone Canada.

    I never heard a persuasive argument from the Parti Quebecois, as to why their (and only their) secession would be legitimate.

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    • Replies: @Almost Missouri

    "I never heard a persuasive argument from the Parti Quebecois, as to why their (and only their) secession would be legitimate."
     
    There isn't one. Well, there is one, actually: the same one the US Federal government used in 1961 when the Confederate states justifiably seceded from the US on the same grounds that the US seceded from Britain: the argument of the gun.

    Of course, I don't foresee the Quebeckers using that argument against the Indians. Nor do I foresee the Quebeckers even seceding at all for that matter. Nowadays it's largely a bluff to extort concessions form Ottawa.
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  58. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    ‘Encouraging separatism’.

    Surely, the official EU/Economist/Deep State policy of unlimited uncontrolled third world immigration into Europe – to the extent that the immigration will inevitably form the majority population – is the biggest encourager of ethnic/religious/cultural/political separatism you can possibly get?

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  59. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    The current Catalan situation is purely an internal Spanish affair. It does not concern foreigners, and likely interests them even less.
    But alas, because of the EU, thirty-odd ‘nations’ must, inevitably ‘pick a side’, or in reality have the unelected, unaccountable, undemocratic ‘European Commission’ pick a side for them.

    Thank Heavens for Brexit!

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  60. bored identity, just out of Fake Curiosity, would like to ask all Reprllent Experts on South European Secessionism:

    Does ” Okay, yeah: all of the above, but really the last one ” have to do anything with ” Every. Single.Time.”?

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  61. Muhmud says:
    @Jack D
    I was glad to see an iSteve post that didn't have an (anti) Jewish angle to it but I see now that EVERYTHING (even Catalonian independence) can be made to have a Jewish angle to it, despite the fact that there are essentially no Jews in Catalonia.

    And I was hoping for an isteve post that didn’t have an anti Muslim angle. But what else do you expect from a WN site?

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  62. DFH says:
    @Nico
    One need not be a demon to be wrong, nor an angel to be correct. A good rule of thumb is that thnic irredentism and separatism is always bad unless it is a Christian people pulling away from Muslim overlords; it always divides resources and brings down trade empires. The objection to the E.U. is NOT that a project for European cooperation is bad but that as conceived the union does nothing but ram swarthy immigrants, burdensome regulations and untenable monetary dictates down its constituent countries' throats. The Eurocrats should be taking the side of the Catalan leaders, whose yuppy self-hating white-assed leaders will no doubt immediately petition to rejoin the EU as a separate, weaker pawn, but the union's nominal obligations to its member states prevents them from openly defying the Spanish government's position on internal affairs not related to Muslims, other brown people or homosexuals. Classic divide and conquer.

    A good rule of thumb is that thnic irredentism and separatism is always bad unless it is a Christian people pulling away from Muslim overlords; it always divides resources and brings down trade empires.

    Almost the exact opposite of the truth. Empires are bad for everyone except oligarchs

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  63. @ic1000
    Consistency is probably the biggest advantage of holding to a policy of anti-irredentism. Irredentist claims such as those discussed in the (admirably informative) post and (impressive for the same reason) comments are almost always messy.

    The division of assets and border-drawing between Czechia and Slovakia was unusual for its civility and non-violence.

    Living within the range of a CBC TV station at the time, I followed the career of Rene Leveque and the ups and downs of the PQ with some interest. An amusing sidebar to Quebec separatism was the stance of the province's First Nations. The tribes are low as a fraction of the citizenry, but have vast landholdings in the north. These include most of the watershed of Hydro-Quebec's network of dams and power stations, the linchpin of the giant scheme to generate electricity and export it to the US Northeast.

    These Indians had no interest in learning a second or third language and becoming a part of North America's Francophone community. If Quebec wants to secede from Canada, we will hold our own vote, the leaders threatened. There was no doubt as to the outcome in the sparsely-populated north, which would have resulted in a majority of Quebec's landmass petitioning for re-accession to Anglophone Canada.

    I never heard a persuasive argument from the Parti Quebecois, as to why their (and only their) secession would be legitimate.

    “I never heard a persuasive argument from the Parti Quebecois, as to why their (and only their) secession would be legitimate.”

    There isn’t one. Well, there is one, actually: the same one the US Federal government used in 1961 when the Confederate states justifiably seceded from the US on the same grounds that the US seceded from Britain: the argument of the gun.

    Of course, I don’t foresee the Quebeckers using that argument against the Indians. Nor do I foresee the Quebeckers even seceding at all for that matter. Nowadays it’s largely a bluff to extort concessions form Ottawa.

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    • Replies: @Matra
    Nor do I foresee the Quebeckers even seceding at all for that matter. Nowadays it’s largely a bluff to extort concessions form Ottawa.

    The 1995 referendum was probably their last chance. They lost narrowly despite 60% of white Francophones voting for "sovereignty". Two decades later the demographics are much less favourable due to immigration and the younger generation of Francophones not being as nationalistic as their parents.

    , @Cagey Beast
    .... the argument of the gun.

    Ultima Ratio Regum ("last argument of kings"):

    "The Last Resort of Kings and Common Men" referring to the act of declaring war; used in the names the French sniper rifle PGM Ultima Ratio .... Louis XIV of France had Ultima Ratio Regum ("last argument of kings") cast on the cannons of his armies; motto of the 1st Battalion 11th Marines ..."
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrases_(U)
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  64. Question is, in turning the riot police rather viciously on what is represented as peaceful protestors looking only for a democratic vote for self-determination, has Madrid actually set independence in motion? Hard to say, given the relative media blackout the referendum has received in MSM outlets throughout Europe and the US. Aside from a few brief mentions here, most people in the US wouldn’t have a clue what was going on, and the US civil war taught us that secession is always bad, so how could we possibly be for it? Seems like self-determination only counts when you want to build a major military base closer to a global rival.

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  65. @Jack D
    I was glad to see an iSteve post that didn't have an (anti) Jewish angle to it but I see now that EVERYTHING (even Catalonian independence) can be made to have a Jewish angle to it, despite the fact that there are essentially no Jews in Catalonia.

    Of course, no Jews in Catalunya, where Barcelona’s main hill is called Mont Juic.

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  66. Can someone possibly explain to me Catlan nationalism? The main dividing line in Europe during our era is between pro-immigration forces and anti-immigration forces. Where do the Catalns stand on this relative to the Spanish central government? If they’re indifferent, why should anyone care? In fact, why are they even bothering?

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  67. Pericles says:
    @theo the kraut
    Interesting post, just to make sure though I guess you know it, the Catalan nationalists imported around 360.000 Moroccans and 60.000 Pakistanis(!) to aid with their voting endeavours, to teach their children Catalan and fend off the non-Catalan speaking (and unwilling to learn it) Latino immigrants.

    OT--Austria, social democrats hire extra shady Israeli spin doctor to paint their opponents as crazy right wing and to sow discord and confusion. Austrian politics traditionally have been seen as a tad Balkanian-Byzantine in Germany, though as of late we're quite good at that, too. The spin doctor has been jailed in Israel by now.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-austria-election/top-austrian-social-democrat-steps-down-over-election-smear-campaign-idUSKCN1C50PG

    The spin doctor, Tal Silberstein, seems to have been involved in funny doings during the the 2002 Bolivian presidential election:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Brand_Is_Crisis_(2005_film)

    See also https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.806828

    Catalan nationalists imported around 360.000 Moroccans and 60.000 Pakistanis(!) to aid with their voting endeavours

    That doesn’t surprise me, actually. The media seems to be solidly on the Catalan side, which would imply this little lark is a globalist/Jewish project of some sort. Migrant madness is part of the package.

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  68. Pericles says:
    @anon
    Does Catalonia plan to remain in the EU, use the Euro, and NATO after they get independence? Let's assume yes. In that case, there isn't all that much left for their new independent country to do, except the local stuff that it does now.

    In terms of what is currently handled locally and what is done by the country -- that could be negotiated without independence. Scotland has been given more powers prior to their losing referendum. That seemed to make them happier for a while. Plus they have their own Parliament Building and elected representatives who talk a lot. It became rather obvious that there was really nothing remaining to be decided -- I don't think they were too keen on enacting additional taxes. That is the fun part -- spending other people's money.

    The US state map has been static for a century. It is unthinkable for the occasional border county to flip to its adjacent state. It wouldn't make much difference but a state simply wouldn't tolerate it. For that matter, the typical US County has a County Seat, Courthouse, and various official duties. I've never heard of even a County being redivided.

    Whatever might change in Catalonia if it got its independence -- I doubt if it would be worth fighting and dying for. After you have outsourced your currency, your military, your tariffs, and your immigration policy -- all thats left is the boring local paperwork.

    Would Spain permit Catalonia to enter the EU, NATO, the Euro, or anything else?

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  69. @Jack D
    Speaking of independence, now would be a really great time to give Puerto Rico independence. It could be a "Nixon goes to China" moment for Trump. We could even give them a few billion as a goodbye present. Of course, Puerto Ricans would no longer be US citizens or have right of residence in the US, but that's a natural consequence of having your own country.

    Interestingly, I’ve noticed that ABC nightly news has made a point of referring to the Puerto Ricans as “American citizens” in virtually every broadcast since the last hurricane. I presume this is to try to drum up anti-Trump feelings as in “Isn’t MAGA also helping our American brethre?.”

    But I totally agree; set them free and wash our hands of this century old colonial Spanish speaking relic.

    The food stamp savings alone makes this a worthwhile political endeavor.

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    • Replies: @The Man From K Street

    Interestingly, I’ve noticed that ABC nightly news has made a point of referring to the Puerto Ricans as “American citizens” in virtually every broadcast since the last hurricane. I presume this is to try to drum up anti-Trump feelings as in “Isn’t MAGA also helping our American brethre?.”
     
    Next time try mentioning to your friendly neighborhood SJW that US citizenship was only extended to PR in 1917--the year alone is a big clue as to why: Uncle Sam needed to embiggen the pool for conscription in a war that was a lot less popular than the government was willing to admit or be let known--the first few months the draft numbers weren't looking good. Ask your interlocutor if he/she/it supports more cannon fodder for war.
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  70. Fredrik says:
    @Andrew M
    Why are Northern Italian regionalists (Lega Lombarda–Lega Nord) very much not cool with the NYT?

    Because Africa starts at Rome. There's a noticeable racial gap between northern and southern Italians. The northerners look like white Europeans, the southerners are olive-skinned North Africans (think John Travolta or Sylvester Stallone).

    Italians in the US are Southeners

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  71. @theo the kraut
    Interesting post, just to make sure though I guess you know it, the Catalan nationalists imported around 360.000 Moroccans and 60.000 Pakistanis(!) to aid with their voting endeavours, to teach their children Catalan and fend off the non-Catalan speaking (and unwilling to learn it) Latino immigrants.

    OT--Austria, social democrats hire extra shady Israeli spin doctor to paint their opponents as crazy right wing and to sow discord and confusion. Austrian politics traditionally have been seen as a tad Balkanian-Byzantine in Germany, though as of late we're quite good at that, too. The spin doctor has been jailed in Israel by now.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-austria-election/top-austrian-social-democrat-steps-down-over-election-smear-campaign-idUSKCN1C50PG

    The spin doctor, Tal Silberstein, seems to have been involved in funny doings during the the 2002 Bolivian presidential election:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Brand_Is_Crisis_(2005_film)

    See also https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.806828

    Interesting post, just to make sure though I guess you know it, the Catalan nationalists imported around 360.000 Moroccans and 60.000 Pakistanis(!) to aid with their voting endeavours, to teach their children Catalan and fend off the non-Catalan speaking (and unwilling to learn it) Latino immigrants.

    I wonder if the human importers in Europe realize that there are non-Muslim and non-African countries to choose from as well?

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  72. Jack D says:
    @slumber_j

    OTOH when NYC was unified in 1898 five counties came under one umbrella.
     
    That's certainly not the case now (each borough is coterminous with a county: New York, Kings, Queens, Richmond and Bronx), and I don't think it ever has been.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boroughs_of_New_York_City#Changes_after_1898

    While the boroughs (counties) still exist and have courthouses, deed records, etc. the real power is in City Hall, not at the county level. The big decisions are made by the mayor and city council.

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  73. “the (lowland) Scots of Iberia”

    The “Britishised” lowland Scots. Before the civilizing influence of the English, they were reivers (think the Scots-Irish), and as the English influences wanes, the on-the-dole ne’er-do-well glassing yobs of today.

    Civilization can be fragile …

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  74. wiseguy says:
    @RomanCandle
    Kind of surprised you made a post about Catalan nationalism and didn't mention FC Barcelona, employer of Lionel Messi and one of the most famous soccer teams in the world. During the Franco dictatorship, cheering Barca was the only legal outlet for patriotism the Catalans had.

    It would be like discussing Texan culture without mentioning the Dallas Cowboys.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mZ7fvc4rNA&t=493s

    Barcelona is on tv playing in front of an empty stadium right now. Pretty funny to see.

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  75. Catalonia is and will be overrun with Muslims and the Catalans will submit to their social demands. Catalonia will demand admittance to the EU and then submit to the legal dictates of Brussels.

    Some independence.

    This is nothing but more jobs for a new set of bureaucrats.

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  76. 1/ The Kurdish referendum was ‘advisory’.

    2/ The reason Italian-Americans don’t sound at all like most Italians is because their Italian is Sicialian inflected. Of course there still is a Sicilian language:

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    It's true that the ancestors of most Italian-Americans came from the south, but not all from the island of Sicily. They came from "The Kingdom of Two Sicilies" (the "other" Sicily being the Kingdom of Naples which covered southern half of Italy). All of these places had their own dialects - at the time of Italian reunification only 2.5% of the population could speak standard "Italian". Sicilian was closer to Neapolitan than to standard Italian.

    Also, Italian-American pronunciations are somewhat Anglicized. It's very common in Italian-American to completely drop the final vowel. Prosciutto becomes proshoot, manicotti becomes manigot (there is also a c -g vowel shift that got exaggerated in Italian American) whereas in the real southern dialects there is still a vowel there but it is barely voiced and c does not really shift all the way to g. But I guess when American born kids (who were already sensitive to the fact that Italians put a vowel at the end of every word even when they were speaking English) heard grandma talking they just didn't hear the semi-silent vowel at the end or they thought that it was just grandma being grandma and adding a vowel to everything. Language is really a very subtle thing and a written alphabet only captures part of the information.

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  77. Surprised the neo-Confederates here don’t mention the secession votes in 1860-61.

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    • Replies: @Andrew
    "Surprised the neo-Confederates here don’t mention the secession votes in 1860-61."

    Self-determination is the sacred right of all free peoples.

    Freedom proceeds out of the barrel of a gun.

    Voting for secession is not enough to enforce independence and freedom. You have to fight for it against those who oppose it and would control you.

    This should be the lesson of almost every successful secessionist movement in history: Switzerland, Holland, America, Ireland, Abkhazia, Donbass.

    Why did the votes of the South not count in 1860-61? Because they failed to enforce their freedom and will.
    , @Logan
    To be fair the "votes" weren't referenda, they were by means of state conventions, a procedure that has become pretty much forgotten. The referendum was a foreign concept in America at the time, not showing up until the very late 19th century, when it was one of the main "reforms" of the progressive era.
    , @eD
    "Surprised the neo-Confederates here don’t mention the secession votes in 1860-61."

    Poorly understood.

    The ones in the Deep South were rigged, let alone that in two Deep South states, slaves made up the majority of the adult population. The Upper South states rejected secession until Lincoln stated taking measures to force the seceding states back into the union, and seceded over that.

    The US Civil War is really poorly understood, and one of the dynamics is that Southern adult whites were mostly opposed to secession and Northern adult whites were at least ambivalent about using force to stop it.
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  78. The Romance languages tended to emerge out of imperial Latin in a clinal fashion with neighboring villages speaking mutually intelligible dialects, but if you went far enough in any direction, you’d run into people whom you couldn’t quite understand

    Sort of, but it is amazing how, after two thousand years of the Roman empire, its gradual decline and fall, the Dark Ages, the Renaissance, and the European Union, the languages are remarkably mutually understandable. For example when I lived in the Dominican Republic, I was able to understand a significant amount of spoken and written Italian based on by knowledge of Spanish and English. (There are quite a few Italians in the DR.)

    There are some obvious differences in the conjugation of verbs and position of adjectives, but many historic words are similar, and in many modern and technical fields like transportation and medicine, the vocabulary is pretty much the same.

    English: cat, kitten
    Spanish: gato, gatito
    Italian: gatto, gattino

    When it comes to terminology like parts of automobiles, then American English and British English are probably as far apart as Spanish and Italian.

    Bottom line, if an Italian speaker and a Spanish speaker both want to communicate, for example one wants to sell and the other wants to buy, they can usually understand each other enough to get the job done, so the same probably applies to speakers of Catalan and other similar languages such as Portuguese.

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    A friend of mine who is from Sicily (outside of Palermo) and who speaks both Sicilian and "Standard" (Tuscan) Italian told me that he can pretty much figure out Romanian, which actually sounds like Italian to the untrained ear.
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  79. Tom-in-VA says:

    Meanwhile, in Madrid, anti-separatist demonstrators sing the Franco-era anthem. I’m surprised at the number of young people participating.

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    Thanks!
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  80. Brobert says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Cédric Klapisch's The Spanish Apartment made Erasmus look like fun.

    He made a terrible sequel a few years later, but imagine if a studio hired Houellebecq to co-author a script for a 3rd installment, one addressing what's happened in Europe over the last decade? The Spanish Apartment was sort of a love letter to EU integration, one that took the peace and prosperity of turn-of-the-century Europe for granted, exemplified by the young protagonist turning down a sinecure in a French government agency to be a writer (as if he couldn't have found time to write with that cake job).

    The sequel was still in fantasy land, with him taking the Eurostar back and forth from Paris to London to collaborate with the British girl on a terrible TV movie. Let's see these characters in their mid-30s dealing with Brexit, terrorism, mass Muslim immigration, real estate busts, Greece's bankruptcy, the rise of the right, European secession movements in general, etc.

    A third movie was made where the characters move to New York. I guess that answers the question as to how to deal with modern Europe and its problems.

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  81. Matra says:
    @Almost Missouri

    "I never heard a persuasive argument from the Parti Quebecois, as to why their (and only their) secession would be legitimate."
     
    There isn't one. Well, there is one, actually: the same one the US Federal government used in 1961 when the Confederate states justifiably seceded from the US on the same grounds that the US seceded from Britain: the argument of the gun.

    Of course, I don't foresee the Quebeckers using that argument against the Indians. Nor do I foresee the Quebeckers even seceding at all for that matter. Nowadays it's largely a bluff to extort concessions form Ottawa.

    Nor do I foresee the Quebeckers even seceding at all for that matter. Nowadays it’s largely a bluff to extort concessions form Ottawa.

    The 1995 referendum was probably their last chance. They lost narrowly despite 60% of white Francophones voting for “sovereignty”. Two decades later the demographics are much less favourable due to immigration and the younger generation of Francophones not being as nationalistic as their parents.

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    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    Canada is a relatively loose confederation, so Quebecers can enjoy almost all the self-rule a people could want and with none of the drawbacks. If the current arrangement changes significantly, then they might push for separatism again. There will probably be French speaking, old stock Quebecers around here when the rest of us are jabbering in some Blade Runner lingo and working as cyber-serfs for a gay, Chinese supercomputer.
    , @yaqub the mad scientist
    I was in Montreal this summer and noticed how much more immigrant it was than even ten years ago. And you heard a lot more English than before. Quebec will never secede. Indeed its time has come and gone.
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    Same with the Scottish referendum, only the majority of the "immigrant vote" was English. Despite a couple of high profile Muslim SNP people, I'd imagine the majority of the (small but non-negligible) immigrant community also voted to stay with the UK aka the political unit that let them immigrate in the beginning.

    Interesting BBC radio coverage of Catalonia tonight. 700 injured in fighting between Catalans and Spanish police, and the BBC is reporting "just the facts, ma'am". Usually they let you know immediately who the good guys and the bad guys are, so you've no need to work it out for yourself. They can't get their heads round this one, so they can't signal who we should support.

    Usual Reporting style A "Over 700 people were injured after the right-wing Prime Minister of Spain, Mariano Rajoy, ordered paramilitary police to break up the Catalan independence referendum by force. Shocking scenes of police violence against people trying to vote were reported. The following report contains scenes some viewers may find disturbing."


    Usual Reporting style B "Over 700 people were injured when right-wing Catalan activists clashed with Spanish police after Prime Minister Rajoy of Spain ordered them to stop what he said was an illegal independence referendum. The following report contains scenes some viewers may find disturbing (show report of activists throwing things at police)."

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  82. Consider the Scottish independence referendum in 2014, which PM David Cameron set up as a one-time vote open only to Scots with simple majority rule. It failed 45-55, so it did not undo 307 years of union.

    It seemed to me that the setup of the Scottish referendum was very odd, as the only people allowed to vote were those who were registered voters in Scotland. Thus huge numbers of expatriate Scots living and working in England, and all over the world, who would have been eligible for the new Scottish citizenship, were not included in the vote.

    The Scotland referendum was designed by Cameron purely as a way of taking the wind out of the Scottish Nationalist Party and it kind of worked. For an encore he went for the Brexit referendum to neuter the growing influence of Nigel Farage’s UKIP party, and this totally backfired on him and led to his immediate resignation.

    The question of what percentage was necessary to achieve Scottish independence or Brexit never seems to have been debated at all. If you had a referendum on Independence for, say, Texas, you can bet that it would require an 80% majority, that sitting members of Congress would each be given a million votes, and that there would be onerous qualifications for voting, and that the Supreme Court would reverse the result and order a do-over on some specious grounds if it went the wrong way.

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  83. Jack D says:
    @anony-mouse
    1/ The Kurdish referendum was 'advisory'.

    2/ The reason Italian-Americans don't sound at all like most Italians is because their Italian is Sicialian inflected. Of course there still is a Sicilian language:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CS0-nRN_OA

    It’s true that the ancestors of most Italian-Americans came from the south, but not all from the island of Sicily. They came from “The Kingdom of Two Sicilies” (the “other” Sicily being the Kingdom of Naples which covered southern half of Italy). All of these places had their own dialects – at the time of Italian reunification only 2.5% of the population could speak standard “Italian”. Sicilian was closer to Neapolitan than to standard Italian.

    Also, Italian-American pronunciations are somewhat Anglicized. It’s very common in Italian-American to completely drop the final vowel. Prosciutto becomes proshoot, manicotti becomes manigot (there is also a c -g vowel shift that got exaggerated in Italian American) whereas in the real southern dialects there is still a vowel there but it is barely voiced and c does not really shift all the way to g. But I guess when American born kids (who were already sensitive to the fact that Italians put a vowel at the end of every word even when they were speaking English) heard grandma talking they just didn’t hear the semi-silent vowel at the end or they thought that it was just grandma being grandma and adding a vowel to everything. Language is really a very subtle thing and a written alphabet only captures part of the information.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    When the vowel is elided depends on the context, so when an Italian word is surrounded by AmEng words, itself becoming in essence an AmEng word, the vowel is generally dropped. You will notice this if, for instance, you listen to the songs of Lou Monte.

    There was a good discussion on this ages ago in one of Linh Dinh's articles-- "Marty, the [something-or-other]".
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  84. neprof says:
    @Beckow
    One of the main functions of a central government is to control the country's borders. That is why there is a central government. This used to be more military based, with occasional actual wars, but today it is about who comes across the border, who gets to stay, in other words migration policies.

    In the last few decades this core function performed by central governments has been gradually abandoned. So when parts of these larger states - like Catalonia in Spain - look at their capitals they don't see much value. With unguarded and open borders, large centralised states make no sense.

    This is one reason for the rapid increase in separatism. There are of course many others, cultural, economic, linguistic, etc... But I believe opening borders also creates a vacuum in the centre of the current states. Almost nothing they do makes sense with open borders and mass migration. How can there be educational or health policies with open access from outside? Or a normal labor market leading to a normal economy? Or cultural policies? Mass migration with effectively unprotected borders make all central state functions pointless. One reaction is an increased desire to separate by constituent parts of the state. This is what the Brussels (and Washington) ruling elites don't get. They have been so obsessed with not allowing a 'power vacuum' internationally, that they stopped caring about not creating a de facto governing vacuums inside the countries they are supposed to be governing.

    Disintegration is one consequence of not having effective external boundaries. The global mandarins have been dreaming about a seamless, integrated, one-world with no borders global super-state (or a smaller European one), but they lost sight of how that changes the dynamic inside their existing countries. We are heading towards a period of more nationalism, more separatism, more disintegration that is really just re-integrating in a different way what has been stupidly abandoned by the global utopians. It will be messy. I wish both Catalans and Spaniards good luck - but if Madrid wants to stop the separatism, they should do their job and control the external borders.

    Hopefully the rise of subsidiarity as a political movement spreads whatever the cause. From Cailexit to the Catalan vote, anything that weakens the globalist ambitions of the elite is fine with me.

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  85. @Almost Missouri

    "I never heard a persuasive argument from the Parti Quebecois, as to why their (and only their) secession would be legitimate."
     
    There isn't one. Well, there is one, actually: the same one the US Federal government used in 1961 when the Confederate states justifiably seceded from the US on the same grounds that the US seceded from Britain: the argument of the gun.

    Of course, I don't foresee the Quebeckers using that argument against the Indians. Nor do I foresee the Quebeckers even seceding at all for that matter. Nowadays it's largely a bluff to extort concessions form Ottawa.

    …. the argument of the gun.

    Ultima Ratio Regum (“last argument of kings”):

    “The Last Resort of Kings and Common Men” referring to the act of declaring war; used in the names the French sniper rifle PGM Ultima Ratio …. Louis XIV of France had Ultima Ratio Regum (“last argument of kings”) cast on the cannons of his armies; motto of the 1st Battalion 11th Marines …”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrases_(U)

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    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    Thanks. That was the reference I was groping for.
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  86. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Flight from white. Irish, Scottish, and Catalonians seek independence from white nation to merge with the non-white globalist world. They say NO to larger whiteness and say YES to even larger non-whiteness.

    Whites fight whites while welcoming non-whites as saviors and allies. No to Castilians, Yes to Moors.

    Narcissism of small differences.

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  87. @Matra
    Nor do I foresee the Quebeckers even seceding at all for that matter. Nowadays it’s largely a bluff to extort concessions form Ottawa.

    The 1995 referendum was probably their last chance. They lost narrowly despite 60% of white Francophones voting for "sovereignty". Two decades later the demographics are much less favourable due to immigration and the younger generation of Francophones not being as nationalistic as their parents.

    Canada is a relatively loose confederation, so Quebecers can enjoy almost all the self-rule a people could want and with none of the drawbacks. If the current arrangement changes significantly, then they might push for separatism again. There will probably be French speaking, old stock Quebecers around here when the rest of us are jabbering in some Blade Runner lingo and working as cyber-serfs for a gay, Chinese supercomputer.

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  88. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    It is left vs left. Both Castilians and Catalonians fight each-other in white vs white war but both side welcome Afro-Moorish invasion.

    It’s like a white woman seeking independence from her own family to go with Negro.

    Irish, Scottish, & Catalonians want independence from whiteness to go with Africa. They see other whites as enemies or oppressors but see blacks & Muslims as allies and liberators.

    Catalonians make a big stink about Spanish repression & violence but enforce PC silence against anyone who denounces mass invasion & violence by Diversity.

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  89. Horzabky says:
    @Beckow
    One of the main functions of a central government is to control the country's borders. That is why there is a central government. This used to be more military based, with occasional actual wars, but today it is about who comes across the border, who gets to stay, in other words migration policies.

    In the last few decades this core function performed by central governments has been gradually abandoned. So when parts of these larger states - like Catalonia in Spain - look at their capitals they don't see much value. With unguarded and open borders, large centralised states make no sense.

    This is one reason for the rapid increase in separatism. There are of course many others, cultural, economic, linguistic, etc... But I believe opening borders also creates a vacuum in the centre of the current states. Almost nothing they do makes sense with open borders and mass migration. How can there be educational or health policies with open access from outside? Or a normal labor market leading to a normal economy? Or cultural policies? Mass migration with effectively unprotected borders make all central state functions pointless. One reaction is an increased desire to separate by constituent parts of the state. This is what the Brussels (and Washington) ruling elites don't get. They have been so obsessed with not allowing a 'power vacuum' internationally, that they stopped caring about not creating a de facto governing vacuums inside the countries they are supposed to be governing.

    Disintegration is one consequence of not having effective external boundaries. The global mandarins have been dreaming about a seamless, integrated, one-world with no borders global super-state (or a smaller European one), but they lost sight of how that changes the dynamic inside their existing countries. We are heading towards a period of more nationalism, more separatism, more disintegration that is really just re-integrating in a different way what has been stupidly abandoned by the global utopians. It will be messy. I wish both Catalans and Spaniards good luck - but if Madrid wants to stop the separatism, they should do their job and control the external borders.

    Mass migration with effectively unprotected borders make all central state functions pointless. One reaction is an increased desire to separate by constituent parts of the state.

    Exactly so. I’m French, from the Paris region. But I’ve become so resentful of the islamization and africanization of France that I applaud Corsican and Breton separatism. Open borders mean the death of the host nation. Smaller nations, like Hungary (which used to be a mere province of the Austro-Hungarian empire) are more likely to control their borders and survive.

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    • Agree: Frau Katze
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  90. Secessionism is the solution, I don’t care what the problem is. Secessionism is how globalism is going to be completely exterminated as an ideology and how globalization is going to be exterminated as a set of governmental edicts that allows the ideology of globalism to be realized. Banker-controlled globalization expires when secessionism is a routine and continuous process.

    CATALAN INDEPENDENCE NOW!

    Then the Basques, then the Bretons, then the Scots, then the Southerners and Californians in the United States…and so on and so forth.

    SOVEREIGN DEBT SECESSIONISM NOW!

    The patriotic young people in the Alt-Right will declare the governmental debt of the United States to be ODIOUS DEBT, and they will refuse to pay it. Secessionism is the answer to the global debt disaster that has developed over the last 50 years. Secessionism from sovereign debt in the United States will lead to a currency crisis. How? The WASP / Jew ruling class as its last act will conduct a monetary extremism supernova to pay the government debt.

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  91. Andrew says:

    “Romance languages tended to emerge out of imperial Latin”

    This is exactly backwards. Latin was never a universal language in the Empire spoken by the majority rustic population in rural areas. The only area it would predominate was in the new Roman towns and military encampments (often these were the same thing).

    Rather, the rustic peasant tongues were in the main slowly creolized by Romanization and out of the Romanization of each underlying peasant language came the local Romance language or dialect.

    The Gallic languages of Gaul and Iberia, northern Italy, and Croatia were rather closer to Latin than is generally credited, and French, Occitan, Catalonian, Castilian, Galician, Portugese, Romansch, Lombardese, Venetian, Arumanian, and Dalmatian are the result.

    The Castilian-Catalonian divide goes back very far in time, just like the Franco-Occitan divide, and is the difference between the Gallo-Basque native population in northern/western Iberia and the Greco-Med population in southern/eastern Iberia. It was already present in pre-Roman times in Spain.

    https://www.quora.com/How-distinct-were-Iberian-tribes-living-in-Spain-and-Portugal-before-Roman-conquest

    The same mistake is made in thinking that all Indo-European tongues go back to a single original language spoken by all, instead of realizing that Indo-European steppe invaders caused the creolization of the existing local languages into Indo-Europeanized tongues, and that the pre-existing gross difference between the major groups – German, Romance, Slavic, Gallic, Iranian, Indian, Illyrian, Greek, Anatolian, Armenian, etc. goes back to underlying ethnic distinctions in population existing before the invasions.

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    • Replies: @Moshe
    Indio-Europian is hard to discuss for anyone but brilliant linguists.

    The division of Latin into Spanish and Portuguese however is something we can discuss.

    What evidence do you have for your rather large claim that Latin only gave a spice to the local dialect rather than, if anything, the other way around.
    , @Syagrius
    This is startling and new to me. It reverses more than a century of romance linguistics, which always start with the assumption that popular, or vulgar, Latin, is the foundation of the national and regional languages we know today as the 'romance languages'. Making that assumption, it is (relatively) easy to describe the local variations that produced the closely-related vernaculars which became national languages distinct from Latin.

    Your competing thesis makes sense - and only makes sense - if we assume that the speakers in areas as far-flung as Romania and Portugal, all of Italy, most of modern France, as well as all the chief western Mediterranean islands, spoke very closely related dialects in the pre-Roman period. This assumption is absolutely vital, if we are to make sense of the remarkable similarity of the chief 'latinate' languages of our time - Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese: A similarity far more obvious and striking than the languages grouped together under 'Chinese', for instance.

    An artificial language such as Interlingua is only possible because it accepts the pattern of romance languages, irons out the irregular verbs and regional idioms, and presents a "cleaned-up" romance speech that would hardly be possible if the family of languages it represents were merely distinct, home-grown languages with a latin overlay.

    No; they are latinate in their core: It's also why English, in spite of its enormous freight of latin and romance words, enjoys little mutual intelligibility with French, Spanish, or (to recall the topic of the thread) Catalan.

    If Roman rule, with its linguistic element, were merely a 'patina' cast over the local languages, then two very difficult questions must be answered:

    (1) Why did ancient Romania, 'Dacia' as it was called by Trajan and his successors, end up not merely a romance-language region, but the only one that retains some of the old Latin case system, despite being almost the last to enter, and the first to leave, the Roman system?

    (2) Why did Britain, despite belonging to the Empire for 400 years, show almost no linguistic influence from Latin? Had it not been for Hadrian's wall you'd hardly know the Romans had been there at all.

    No one thinks, of course, that 'vulgar' Latin is some kind of deterioration of the language of (say) Cicero. Cicero himself wrote and perhaps even spoke a form of Latin that would have been obscure to his own humble neighbors. The Latin studied in schools - even in the late republic - was not the language of the streets or the countryside. It was a composite, formulated language, much as France imposed on its rural subjects (look at a country churchyard in southern France, and the graves pre-1914 are as often as not inscribed in Occitan, or even Basque). That said, the rise of the grammarians (Quintilian being an obvious example) corresponds to the rise of 'Romanization' and the formulation of an imperial policy designed to make provincials think of themselves as 'Roman' in a broader, cosmopolitan sense.

    I opine that the Romans were less like the Ottomans (who collected tribute and let things go at that) and more like the Russians, the French, the Americans: They were bent on building a vast super-state with a common language, culture and religion: They inherited Greek ideas of state and society and (albeit hamfistedly) tried for awhile to create a "universal system". The linguistic evidence is only part of it - but it is a huge part.
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  92. Andrew says:
    @anony-mouse
    Surprised the neo-Confederates here don't mention the secession votes in 1860-61.

    “Surprised the neo-Confederates here don’t mention the secession votes in 1860-61.”

    Self-determination is the sacred right of all free peoples.

    Freedom proceeds out of the barrel of a gun.

    Voting for secession is not enough to enforce independence and freedom. You have to fight for it against those who oppose it and would control you.

    This should be the lesson of almost every successful secessionist movement in history: Switzerland, Holland, America, Ireland, Abkhazia, Donbass.

    Why did the votes of the South not count in 1860-61? Because they failed to enforce their freedom and will.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Or as Covington has his fictional Northwest American Republic hold as its motto, Ex Gladio Libertas

    His "gladio" more resembles the SS uniform dagger than a sword, a mere coincidence of course.
    , @Anon
    I'm a free person. Do I get secession rights?
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  93. Pat Boyle says:
    @Opinionator
    Holy shit Steve Sailer is amazing.

    Yeah, and it’s starting to piss me off.

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  94. Heros says:
    @Brabantian
    Self-determination for Catalan or other peoples seems to be a right per the much-ignored UN Charter which Spain has signed ... A UN Charter which also leads one to 'stand with Israel' in support of the rights of Kurds to have their own nation ... ditto the Chechens chafing in Russia, the Uighurs or Tibetans in China too, USA 'states' ... yet it's notable that:

    Catalonia has a great many very special ties to Israel & Mossad, a huge amount of commercial & security links, police training, research projects, military export trade, thousands of Jewish students visiting ... detailed by Aangirfan on her site in her article on the 'Barcelona False Flag'. Also see article on Catalonia the Newest European Kosher State.

    Catalonia's government website says, "From the Catalan Government Trade & Investment office in Tel-Aviv, you get tailor-made information & full support for a smooth, fast and successful set-up of operations in Catalonia from start to finish."

    Canadian dissident Jew Henry Makow, argues that Jewish elites are bitterly divided between Soros-type globalists, & nationalist-Zionists like Netanyahu ... who play very cleverly on the populist emotions in support of nationalist self-determination, encouraging all nationalists to be friends of Israel ... Netanyahu has even been allying with Viktor Orbán in Hungary, as well as with the Kurds in Iraq-Syria-Iran-Turkey, and with Catalonia in Spain ... This is a very clever card to play, much more clever than the tiresome globalist Soros themes

    Here, two photos, the first with Catalan President Carles Puigdemont & Jewish-Russian billionaire Shimon Aminov, also including 'Putin's rabbi' from Moscow Chabad, Berel Lazar, in the group; second photo is previous Catalan leader Artur Mas with Shimon Peres
    http://www.chabad.org/media/images/1014/VEWC10144422.jpg
    https://i1.wp.com/elrobotpescador.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/2.jpg

    Thank you Brabantian, I knew that the cabal was somehow at the center of this but I was lacking this information.

    I will also tie this in to a recent change in Spanish law that allows any Jew, who claims Spanish ancestry or some other link, to claim Spanish Citizenship. They don’t even have to speak Spanish.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/11/spain-law-citizenship-jews

    “to atone for its past harsh treatment of Jews”

    This could also tie into Gibraltar, which is basically a Jewish money laundering colony. There are about a half-dozen synagogue s there.

    http://haruth.com/jw/JewsGibraltar.html

    If Gibraltar breaks off from England, it could also become physically or just practically a part of Israel. But that is not enough, so to me the real question how is the breakup of Spain good for the Jews? Or are the Jews starting to fear the break up of Israel?

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    • Replies: @Moshe
    Their coming to take him away...
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  95. If the rest of.the UK had voted in the Scottish referendum it is quite possible English, Welsh and northern Irish votes would have been in favour of ejecting them from the Union. Scottish North Sea oil off the coast of Aberdeen is petering out and Scottish demographics are poor and worsening.

    London and the south east subsidise the rest of the country and getting rid of the Scots would mean more of the economic cake could be shared between the rest.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The English interest in keeping Scotland in the union was never economic but military. Not having a land border with a potentially hostile power greatly simplified English foreign policy.
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  96. SPAIN IS HEADING FOR CIVIL WAR

    When government workers manhandle with extreme disregard citizens of about 60 years of age that pisses off the young men who support and love their people. The Madrid faction that sent the government workers to attack the Catalonians has lost all legitimacy.

    The bald guy in his sixties getting manhandled by the Madrid government workers is pissing me off and I am not even a Catalonian. Then right after the bald guy gets roughed up, the Madrid government workers attack a woman.

    Video of the Madrid government workers attacking Catalonian 60 year olds and women:

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    As one Turkish observer tweeted, 'what would be the official EU reaction if this happened in Turkey?'.
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  97. @Steve Sailer
    While backpacking around Europe in 1980, I met an Australian law student in Switzerland. He told me he'd been in Barcelona shortly before and heard a huge racket in the distance. Eventually he wandered over to find out what all the noise was about and found tens of thousands of people leaving a free Clash concert, presumably in honor of George Orwell. We commiserated together on his bad luck.

    Catalan government workers are now squaring off against the Madrid government workers. A group of Catalan firefighters has displayed tremendous courage and bravery to protect their people. These great firefighters have an instinct to protect and defend — from fire, trauma or tyranny!

    I have been waiting for the split between government workers for years in the United States. And not just leprechaun cops and firefighters in Boston or New York brawling, they do that for fun. I am talking about government workers refusing to be evil scum that do the bidding of vile plutocrats and tyrants!

    Watch this small spark of defiance grow in strength. Watch how the Catalan firefighters made a wall of patriotism to face down the zombie Madrid government workers. This is great stuff:

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    • Replies: @al gore rhythms
    It is stirring. But the fact that the crowd chant 'no paseran' shows how much Catalan nationalism is bound up with a romantic view of their historic left-wing resistance to fascism and Spanish nationalism.
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  98. ” Consider the Scottish Independence Referendum in 2014, which PM David Cameron set up as a one time vote only to Scots with simple majority rule. It failed 45-55 so it did not undo 307 years of Union ”
    I do like you, Mr Steve, but you are Swiss-American, not of British stock. Your lack of knowledge of the British Isles can be embarrassing. In 1603, the Union of the Crowns occurred. Scotland, England and Wales were united under one monarch. Trade barriers were removed and there was a common citizenship. The 1707 Union of the Parliaments between England and Scotland resulted in one Parliament at Westminster. But the Treaty of Union ( 1707 ) had to be ratified by acts of both the English and Scots Parliaments. In fact, all three indicated where Scotland might wish to secede in future. So David Cameron could not set up a one time only vote.
    With a Scottish Parliament re-established, It can order a referendum as and when it likes.
    Like the acts in the Scottish and English parliaments re Union, all they required were a simple msjority.

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  99. Madrid government workers have been attacking and brutalizing citizens of the future nation of Catalonia. Hundreds have been injured by the Madrid government workers. The spark of civil war has been ignited into a full confrontation between the Madrid government workers and the patriotic citizens of Catalonia.

    Evil tyrannical scum who control the central capital of Madrid have sent government worker thugs to kill Catalonian independence. They have all but guaranteed the emergence of the Catalan nation as a fully sovereign entity separate and apart from the Madrid criminals.

    Madrid government workers have spilled blood in their attacks on Catalan citizens attempting to vote. This civil war has been started by the Madrid government workers.

    Violent Madrid Government Workers Attack:

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  100. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Jack D
    It's true that the ancestors of most Italian-Americans came from the south, but not all from the island of Sicily. They came from "The Kingdom of Two Sicilies" (the "other" Sicily being the Kingdom of Naples which covered southern half of Italy). All of these places had their own dialects - at the time of Italian reunification only 2.5% of the population could speak standard "Italian". Sicilian was closer to Neapolitan than to standard Italian.

    Also, Italian-American pronunciations are somewhat Anglicized. It's very common in Italian-American to completely drop the final vowel. Prosciutto becomes proshoot, manicotti becomes manigot (there is also a c -g vowel shift that got exaggerated in Italian American) whereas in the real southern dialects there is still a vowel there but it is barely voiced and c does not really shift all the way to g. But I guess when American born kids (who were already sensitive to the fact that Italians put a vowel at the end of every word even when they were speaking English) heard grandma talking they just didn't hear the semi-silent vowel at the end or they thought that it was just grandma being grandma and adding a vowel to everything. Language is really a very subtle thing and a written alphabet only captures part of the information.

    When the vowel is elided depends on the context, so when an Italian word is surrounded by AmEng words, itself becoming in essence an AmEng word, the vowel is generally dropped. You will notice this if, for instance, you listen to the songs of Lou Monte.

    There was a good discussion on this ages ago in one of Linh Dinh’s articles– “Marty, the [something-or-other]“.

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  101. Madrid government worker criminals are beating Catalan firefighters with clubs. The evil scum in Madrid who control the government worker criminals have blood on their hands. The evil scum in Madrid have started this civil war.

    Catalan men will not allow their people to be beaten by Madrid government workers without a response. Patriotic Catalonians will not submit to the criminal thug Madrid government workers.

    Madrid Government Workers Attack Catalan Firefighters:

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  102. @Jason Liu
    The Catalan separatists sound like a bunch of snobs who hate the rest of Spain for not being as "progressive" as they are. The whole thing feels like it's motivated more by SJWism than real nationalism. It's like if Portland tried to secede. Should you let them, so the country can be free of far-leftists? Or should you deny them, so the left doesn't get their safe space?

    Maybe let Catalonia go, then a Franco II can go and kick the shit out of them. That'd be nice.

    It’s quite a bit more complicated. Many left-leaning Catalan artistes, including director Isabel Coixet, have come out against independence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/22/catalonia-independence-referendum-isabel-coixet

    The secessionists yell “fascist!” at the anti-secessionists, but lefty artistes say that can’t tell the difference between fascists and the nationalist orientations of the independence movement.

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    • Replies: @Frau Katze
    I notice that both Canada and the UK permitted secessionist referendums to be held.

    They did not send in police to try and stop them.

    There really is a big gap between northern and southern European societies (I include Canada as northern because they were the first settlers).
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  103. J1234 says:

    According to Carlo Rolle, both the Italian language and church Latin were based on somewhat vulgarized (my word, not necessarily his) forms of Imperial Latin. Both were held in low regard by late remnants of the earlier Latin, which apparently had more nuance and flair. I can’t remember if he discusses it in this lecture or not. It’s been a while since I’ve seen it. Definitely a series worth reviewing. I think he offers the same lectures in Italian, as well.

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  104. Logan says:

    Thanks for the excellent info. Very informative!

    Most of us have little or no clue what the issues are here.

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  105. Leprechaun by way of London now involved with a beautiful woman from Alabama, John O’Sullivan, has suggested that the Madrid government worker thug attacks on Catalan voters is an example of how the remainers in Britain would like to treat their patriotic foes who voted for British independence from the evil EU. Secessionism on the march!

    Spanish police deal with independence referendum for Catalonia the way that Remainers wish to annul the Brexit independence referendum.

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  106. @Matra
    Nor do I foresee the Quebeckers even seceding at all for that matter. Nowadays it’s largely a bluff to extort concessions form Ottawa.

    The 1995 referendum was probably their last chance. They lost narrowly despite 60% of white Francophones voting for "sovereignty". Two decades later the demographics are much less favourable due to immigration and the younger generation of Francophones not being as nationalistic as their parents.

    I was in Montreal this summer and noticed how much more immigrant it was than even ten years ago. And you heard a lot more English than before. Quebec will never secede. Indeed its time has come and gone.

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  107. Logan says:
    @anony-mouse
    Surprised the neo-Confederates here don't mention the secession votes in 1860-61.

    To be fair the “votes” weren’t referenda, they were by means of state conventions, a procedure that has become pretty much forgotten. The referendum was a foreign concept in America at the time, not showing up until the very late 19th century, when it was one of the main “reforms” of the progressive era.

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  108. Logan says:

    Most everybody will agree in theory that “a people” have the right to self-determination.

    The devil is, as always, in the details. Who is “a people” and therefore has the right to secede?

    The people of the United States? The people of Virginia? The people of West Virginia? The people of Wood County, WV?

    The people of Catalonia? How about the people of Lleida? The people of Val d’Aran?

    One of the peculiarities of the US Constitution is that a state can be split into two or more states by simply majority vote of the state legislature and of Congress.

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  109. 3g4me says:

    So 55 comments and barely a handful even address, parenthetically, Steve’s posted questions: “Should the rest of the union get a veto? Perhaps the part of the polity being seceded from should need a majority to approve the secession?”

    Vox Day has had a number of posts about Catalonia and each has a long comment thread where various Spaniard and Catalonians have debated their respective opinions. It’s all rather messy and complicated as such ethnic affairs tend to be. My take from all my reading is that the current Catalonian politicians are rather sleazy opportunists, although there is a significant portion of the population that wants independence. Spanish opponents always cite the illegality of the whole procedure, as well as the issue of all the Mohammedans in Catalonia. Ultimately, however, as Vox notes, “the law” does not actually exist in any material sense. It is merely a collective agreement, which ceases to exist when a sufficient number of people unilaterally withdraw from it.” Add to this his related point that, even if the people or leaders are stupid or venal, the entire issue resolves down to whether Europe’s trumpeted “democracy” and peoples’ “right to self-determination” is real or merely a sham.

    Using force of arms to compel people to stay when they want to go is a loss and wrong on the moral and political level. Of course the question of the dissenters always arises, for example if Texas were every to secede (I highly doubt it) San Antonio (almost entirely Mestizo), Houston (75% Mestizo, Negro, and Asian), and Austin (almost no native White Texans and heavily Jewish run) would be vehemently opposed.

    This is yet another example of the tragedy of mass population mixing. Most people prefer to live amongst their own – only certain groups will always prefer the stability and economic success others produce and yet constantly agitate for more of their own people and customs. I propose, in all seriousness, that we are far past the point when the mass reorganization of people must be undertaken, a la India and Pakistan’s split. Let the Austinites return to New York, the San Antonians to Mexico and those resident in Catalonia who oppose independence move to Spain proper. Everything is going to fall out that way sooner or later, but perhaps rationally considering the best way to do so now could mitigate at least some of the violence and death that are coming regardless of Americans’ normalcy bias.

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    • Replies: @Nico

    Using force of arms to compel people to stay when they want to go is a loss and wrong on the moral and political level.
     
    I disagree. While the Vox author is certainly correct in that the maintaining the rule of law necessarily entails a large-scale psychological submission, which when it breaks down can make the rule of law difficult or impossible to restore, this is merely a situational descriptive. Children have no right, for example, to "secede" from their parents, and even as adults they can be disinherited for behavior which is disrespectful towards their parents or otherwise socially reprehensible. The parents' legal margin of manœuvre on this last point does of course vary greatly from time to time and from place to place, and societal conventions impose differing dictates as to what sort of reprehensible conduct would provide a legitimate pretext for deletion from a will; most everyone would agree, however, that in principle children should not expect lavish enrichment on their parents death if they constantly dishonored said parents in life.

    This of course is the key: in quite a few modern separatist movements the separatists wanted to have their cake AND eat it, too: Quebec might have been reluctant to join NATO at first but being surrounded by the bloc would certainly have benefitted de facto from its protection; Scotland wanted to continue to use the sterling and immediately join the E.U.; and so on. Even if we regard their constituent peoples as adults and not minor children with respect to their sovereigns as per the preceding analogy (and for me that is a stretch) I see no moral or political imperative to humor such attitudes except when it is convenient for Machiavellian purposes. Then again, I am more sympathetic to Filmer than to Locke.

    The difference here of course is the cognitive dissonance, that the European Union shills never stop singing the praises of Lockean democracy and in particular using the concept as the flimsiest pretext to justify the oppression of white gentile Europeans in favor of brown and/or Saracen invaders. And on that point I am in full agreement that whatever the headache to us all of the current Catalonian crisis, the momentary middle finger shoved up the Eurocrats'is indeed some consolation.
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  110. eD says:
    @Anonymous
    The irony is that this is all happening in the wake of Brexit, and the remoaners in the UK still haven't ceased whining, back-sliding, belly-aching etc about weaseling out of the plebiscite and staying in the EU - ie accepting some sort of arrangement in which UK sovereignty is ultimately compromised - in all but name.
    The Economist magazine has never accepted Brexit. Therefore it is a given that the British deep-state will do its damndest to keep the UK in.

    Anyway, more point is that the EU, as ever, is the source of this trouble. Catalan independence can only work in the context of EU membership - all the Catalans are really planning on doing is exchanging Iberian domination for EU Commission domination. At least in the case of Iberian domination, the actual Catalan people have a 'say' in their government, under EU Commission domination they will most certainly not - witness the scheme to impose massive third world immigration upon eastern Europe.
    The EU - exposing the fundamental contradictions at its heart - is forced into a double game here. On the one hand, it must seek to keep the Spanish government, a loyal and vital member, happy and stable. On the other hand, by siding with the Spanish government, it shows itself to be unresponsive to 'democratic' nationalist sentiment.

    As the great Enoch Powell put it, 'Either a nation is sovereign or it is not. Anything else is merely local government'.

    “As the great Enoch Powell put it, ‘Either a nation is sovereign or it is not. Anything else is merely local government’.”

    This is an interesting thread, but in this case Powell’s classical scholarship shown through, because this is actually what happened with the Roman Empire.

    The Roman Empire until Diocletian’s reforms were always a series of ad-hoc arrangements, and it was never a case of a Roman unitary state presiding over a series of provinces that you see on maps in standard historical atlases. The “provinces” were really military commands, just as the US government divides the world into, and existing independent city-states such as Athens and Sparta still remained as such, unless specific arrangements were made otherwise, such as the Roman annexation of the Alexandrian successor states. Citizens of Athens and Sparta remained citizens of Athens and Sparta, had to go through immigration and pay customs duties when they visited Italy, magistrates were chosen without interference of the governor, etc.

    By the way, this was also the case in the province of Judea, which remained under the control of the Macabee founded priesthood, which is why Pilate, and the couple of soldiers who accompanied him on his visit to Jerusalem, could do nothing about the conviction of Jesus for blasphemy, an offense under (Sadducee) Jewish but not Roman law, other than ratify his execution under the procedures in place to ensure that no Roman citizens traveling in that area fell victim to local customs, a procedure which later saved St. Paul’s life.

    The classical educated British elite were well aware of this dynamic, Toynbee also often discusses it. Over time what happened is that even though these local tribes and cities locally had wide autonomy, their lack of sovereignty, they couldn’t make decisions about war and peace, meant that the autonomy was doomed too. Local elites just weren’t as interested and Emperors and their aides just couldn’t resist sticking their noses into local matters. Eventually you got universal Roman citizenship and then the Soviet style system set up by Diocletian.

    Both the (British) Commonwealth and the European (Common Market) Union were started with this dynamic in mind, but developed in different directions.

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Are you saying that pre-Diocletian provinces were sovereign or were not sovereign?
    , @AM

    which is why Pilate, and the couple of soldiers who accompanied him on his visit to Jerusalem, could do nothing about the conviction of Jesus for blasphemy, an offense under (Sadducee) Jewish but not Roman law,
     
    Pilate actually could have rejected their petition for punishment, as Jesus was not worthy of death under Roman law. That's why the Jews even had to go him in the first place to ask for his death, which was humiliation of sorts for them. The Romans would punish them for carrying out anything else but Roman justice.

    The issue is they were about to riot and Pilate had gotten in trouble previously for being to heavy handed in Judea. Judea was not exactly a plum assignment anyway but he needed to keep it and order if he was to get out of this annoying Jewish backwater with a career.

    Jesus, in his mind, was a small, if annoying, sacrifice to make. The exchanges in the Gospels make it clear Pilate wasn't excited about his part in the death of what appeared be in the Roman mind, at worst, an armyless crackpot. A plausible explanation of why Pilates put "King of the Jews" on Jesus' cross was to get back at those Jews who not only disturbed him on a weekend, they wouldn't even set foot in his office (the honor he was due) because of "Reasons" that would have been foreign to him.

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  111. eD says:
    @anony-mouse
    Surprised the neo-Confederates here don't mention the secession votes in 1860-61.

    “Surprised the neo-Confederates here don’t mention the secession votes in 1860-61.”

    Poorly understood.

    The ones in the Deep South were rigged, let alone that in two Deep South states, slaves made up the majority of the adult population. The Upper South states rejected secession until Lincoln stated taking measures to force the seceding states back into the union, and seceded over that.

    The US Civil War is really poorly understood, and one of the dynamics is that Southern adult whites were mostly opposed to secession and Northern adult whites were at least ambivalent about using force to stop it.

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    • Replies: @AM

    The Upper South states rejected secession until Lincoln stated taking measures to force the seceding states back into the union, and seceded over that.
     
    Lincoln gets way too much hero worship. There is every reason to believe that his ineptness before and during the Civil War prolonged and made it the complete disaster in terms of human life that it was.
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  112. Patriotic Catalan Police are protecting their people against the evil thug Madrid Government Workers. Catalan patriots will not allow the evil thug Madrid Government Workers to brutalize and harm the citizens of Catalonia. I am very proud to see honest and decent government workers defiantly resisting the evil government workers from Madrid. That is why secessionism is the solution to globalism.

    Watch the patriotic Catalan Police stand their ground against the evil Madrid Government Workers. It is a joy to see this happening. It needs to happen everywhere tyrants rule unjustly.

    God Bless The Catalan Cops:

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  113. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Catalonians are significantly different from Spaniards. Also, it’s true about their wealth. Even by European standards, Catalonians stand out for their sophistication, cultural refinement, affluence and education. In Latin America, Catalonians form the upper crust in countries like Chile, Uruguay and Argentina. The Catalonians are mostly French with Germanic ancestry. Of course, the upper crust of Spain has always been of Germanic ancestry: Spain is where the bulk of the Visigoths settled after the invasion of the Roman Empire. Spaniards with blue and green eyes are a dime a dozen. One of the pejorative terms used in Latin America to call Spaniards is “Godo”, or “Goth”. This applies to the upper crust Spaniards. The typical Spaniard is a mixture of very old Neolithic stock with Celtic and Visigothic blood. In the south of Spain, there is also Semitic blood from the Moorish invasions. This is, however, minor. I think Antonio Banderas is a good example of a Spaniard that is mostly of Neolithic stock with some Moorish blood thrown in. But the typical Spaniard is significantly lighter-skinned than Banderas. He is not a good representative of the typical Spaniard. He is swarthy by Spanish standards.

    The majority of upper class Latin Americans tend to be of the lighter type of Spaniard, because the Spaniards that went to the Americas, the so-called “Peninsulares”, were aristocrats and therefore of Visigothic ancestry. Hence, “Godos”.

    Catalonians have a lot of French ancestry, and their language reflects that. Many Catalonians trace their origin to the area around Roussillon, in central France. Catalonians are different from typical Spaniards in a way: Spaniards tend to be intelligent, but not very orderly or particularly crafstman-like. Catalonians, like northern Europeans, tend to be more serious, industrious and committed to rule-following. Spaniiards are more extraverted and disorderly – like Italians.

    I don’t think, however, that the duifferences between Catalonians and Spaniards are big enough to justify separation. Genetically, they are probably 99.999% similar. Culturally, the differences are pretty minor.

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  114. @Beckow
    One of the main functions of a central government is to control the country's borders. That is why there is a central government. This used to be more military based, with occasional actual wars, but today it is about who comes across the border, who gets to stay, in other words migration policies.

    In the last few decades this core function performed by central governments has been gradually abandoned. So when parts of these larger states - like Catalonia in Spain - look at their capitals they don't see much value. With unguarded and open borders, large centralised states make no sense.

    This is one reason for the rapid increase in separatism. There are of course many others, cultural, economic, linguistic, etc... But I believe opening borders also creates a vacuum in the centre of the current states. Almost nothing they do makes sense with open borders and mass migration. How can there be educational or health policies with open access from outside? Or a normal labor market leading to a normal economy? Or cultural policies? Mass migration with effectively unprotected borders make all central state functions pointless. One reaction is an increased desire to separate by constituent parts of the state. This is what the Brussels (and Washington) ruling elites don't get. They have been so obsessed with not allowing a 'power vacuum' internationally, that they stopped caring about not creating a de facto governing vacuums inside the countries they are supposed to be governing.

    Disintegration is one consequence of not having effective external boundaries. The global mandarins have been dreaming about a seamless, integrated, one-world with no borders global super-state (or a smaller European one), but they lost sight of how that changes the dynamic inside their existing countries. We are heading towards a period of more nationalism, more separatism, more disintegration that is really just re-integrating in a different way what has been stupidly abandoned by the global utopians. It will be messy. I wish both Catalans and Spaniards good luck - but if Madrid wants to stop the separatism, they should do their job and control the external borders.

    This is one reason for the rapid increase in separatism. There are of course many others, cultural, economic, linguistic, etc… But I believe opening borders also creates a vacuum in the centre of the current states. Almost nothing they do makes sense with open borders and mass migration.

    Excellent comment Beckow.

    Either the nation state does its job–in which case it tends to coalesce the people into a nation. (Some states are just not setup on the correct national boundaries to do that, but most, outside African seem to be good enough.) Or it doesn’t and then there’s just no point.

    ~~
    Mentally preparing my comment on Steve’s post, I was going to point out that the EU has generated a bunch of the regional nationalist we see in the EU. People in those areas basically think that nothing substantive will change with succession, they’ll still be in the EU have the same trade and freedom of movement. Military and defense no longer matter, so the extra costs there are minimal. Duplicating bureaucracy–heck a bunch of that’s already in the EU. So add it all up and it looks like a chance to get the ego boost of waving one’s small national banner with minimal cost.

    Not a Scot, never been there, not super-familiar with the debate, but from what I can tell it’s not really Scottish nationalism. The SNP doesn’t propose leaving to protect Scotland from the coming diversity debacle that London has created in England or that Merkel/EU is creating in Europe. Rather they want to leave the UK, but then join the EU, get big EU subsidies and encourage *more* immigration. Seriously. That’s not “nationalism” it’s a petulant leftist hissy.

    Real Scottish nationalism would involve lots more Scots guys knocking-up Scots girls and producing lots more Scots babies, raised in Scottish culture to turn around their low TFR and population decline.

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    • Replies: @Charles Pewitt

    People in those areas basically think that nothing substantive will change with succession, they’ll still be in the EU have the same trade and freedom of movement.

     

    If At First You Don't Secede, Try And Try Again!
    , @Jack D
    All of the "independence" movements in Europe are really phony. None of these countries could exist in the long run without being under the umbrella of NATO and the EU. Does any of them have a military that could resist invasion or an economy that could support itself?

    Recently the hurricane went thru a few little chicken shit "countries" in the Caribbean that were former British colonies. Five minutes after the hurricane was over they were begging the former mother country for help.

    All it takes is one ruthless Putin-like character next door and the "independence" of any of these places is over.

    The current stuff going on shows how important it is for national unity to suppress all minority languages. It seems "cute" and harmless to allow minorities to keep their own language but it is deadly. A separate language community is fertile ground for separatism. The US had better kill off Spanish before it is too late.

    , @AM

    People in those areas basically think that nothing substantive will change with succession, they’ll still be in the EU have the same trade and freedom of movement. Military and defense no longer matter, so the extra costs there are minimal. Duplicating bureaucracy–heck a bunch of that’s already in the EU. So add it all up and it looks like a chance to get the ego boost of waving one’s small national banner with minimal cost.
     
    People have been discussing the Quebec separatist movement here, but what went under appreciated was that most of the Francophone politicians who got so much mileage out of it wanted to "negotiate" an exit. It wasn't Quebec standing on her own.

    There were actually two votes that both failed over 10 years. However, the entire movement was premised on the idea that somehow Canada would share: as in their currency and military. Quebec is crazy socialist, so that wasn't really a factor.

    What ended the entire movement was putting a formal mechanism in place, close to what Steve has suggested (not a slim 51% majority) with the absolute clarity that it was 100% independence. No sharing of military or currency for any province wishing complete independence.

    Modern "independence" movements are much like teenagers who scream "I hate you, I hate you, I hate you!" and 5 minutes later are asking for a lift to the mall, ideally with some spending cash. Say what you will about them, at least Confederate South left. Whatever this is, it's not independence.


    Real Scottish nationalism would involve lots more Scots guys knocking-up Scots girls and producing lots more Scots babies, raised in Scottish culture to turn around their low TFR and population decline.
     
    When French Canadians found themselves being surrounded by English colonists, they started what they termed "the war of the cradle". The Catholic church was huge in supporting and spreading the word. It was patriotic duty to get married, have like 10 babies, and pass on the faith and the language. (My family tree attests to it.)

    It worked so well that Quebec started to run out of land for farms and French Canadians moved on to elsewhere.

    And now? No faith and no babies. Some french language, socialism, and Cirque du Soleil. That's it. Asians will be a far more important force going forward, given the demographics.

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  115. @eD
    "As the great Enoch Powell put it, ‘Either a nation is sovereign or it is not. Anything else is merely local government’."

    This is an interesting thread, but in this case Powell's classical scholarship shown through, because this is actually what happened with the Roman Empire.

    The Roman Empire until Diocletian's reforms were always a series of ad-hoc arrangements, and it was never a case of a Roman unitary state presiding over a series of provinces that you see on maps in standard historical atlases. The "provinces" were really military commands, just as the US government divides the world into, and existing independent city-states such as Athens and Sparta still remained as such, unless specific arrangements were made otherwise, such as the Roman annexation of the Alexandrian successor states. Citizens of Athens and Sparta remained citizens of Athens and Sparta, had to go through immigration and pay customs duties when they visited Italy, magistrates were chosen without interference of the governor, etc.

    By the way, this was also the case in the province of Judea, which remained under the control of the Macabee founded priesthood, which is why Pilate, and the couple of soldiers who accompanied him on his visit to Jerusalem, could do nothing about the conviction of Jesus for blasphemy, an offense under (Sadducee) Jewish but not Roman law, other than ratify his execution under the procedures in place to ensure that no Roman citizens traveling in that area fell victim to local customs, a procedure which later saved St. Paul's life.

    The classical educated British elite were well aware of this dynamic, Toynbee also often discusses it. Over time what happened is that even though these local tribes and cities locally had wide autonomy, their lack of sovereignty, they couldn't make decisions about war and peace, meant that the autonomy was doomed too. Local elites just weren't as interested and Emperors and their aides just couldn't resist sticking their noses into local matters. Eventually you got universal Roman citizenship and then the Soviet style system set up by Diocletian.

    Both the (British) Commonwealth and the European (Common Market) Union were started with this dynamic in mind, but developed in different directions.

    Are you saying that pre-Diocletian provinces were sovereign or were not sovereign?

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    • Replies: @eD
    "Are you saying that pre-Diocletian provinces were sovereign or were not sovereign?"

    At risk of thread hijacking, during the Republic, the "provinces" were really just military commands. People like Verres, who Cicero prosecuted, were supposedly just there to command the Roman forces in the area. Though post Republic, officially Pilate's authority was that he was supposed to be looking after Octavian's economic interests -to make sure the taxes were collected and no Roman citizens were stoned to death.

    Within the commands or provinces, the Romans annexed some kingdoms and some places remained independent on paper until quite late. The tendency was over time for more and more places to be annexed and the provincial governors to get more involved in local government.

    Making everyone in the empire a Roman citizen in the early third century AD was really the turning point and Diocletian really just recognized the reality (Diocletian abolished all the old jurisdictions and created a new system of local government from scratch). Even though lots of jurisdictions were legally independent, without the ability to do foreign policy they really weren't, which is the point here. And these places did have control over immigration and customs.

    The provinces weren't independent, but within the provinces there were still legally independent city-states.
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  116. @Beckow
    One of the main functions of a central government is to control the country's borders. That is why there is a central government. This used to be more military based, with occasional actual wars, but today it is about who comes across the border, who gets to stay, in other words migration policies.

    In the last few decades this core function performed by central governments has been gradually abandoned. So when parts of these larger states - like Catalonia in Spain - look at their capitals they don't see much value. With unguarded and open borders, large centralised states make no sense.

    This is one reason for the rapid increase in separatism. There are of course many others, cultural, economic, linguistic, etc... But I believe opening borders also creates a vacuum in the centre of the current states. Almost nothing they do makes sense with open borders and mass migration. How can there be educational or health policies with open access from outside? Or a normal labor market leading to a normal economy? Or cultural policies? Mass migration with effectively unprotected borders make all central state functions pointless. One reaction is an increased desire to separate by constituent parts of the state. This is what the Brussels (and Washington) ruling elites don't get. They have been so obsessed with not allowing a 'power vacuum' internationally, that they stopped caring about not creating a de facto governing vacuums inside the countries they are supposed to be governing.

    Disintegration is one consequence of not having effective external boundaries. The global mandarins have been dreaming about a seamless, integrated, one-world with no borders global super-state (or a smaller European one), but they lost sight of how that changes the dynamic inside their existing countries. We are heading towards a period of more nationalism, more separatism, more disintegration that is really just re-integrating in a different way what has been stupidly abandoned by the global utopians. It will be messy. I wish both Catalans and Spaniards good luck - but if Madrid wants to stop the separatism, they should do their job and control the external borders.

    Best comment. thanks.

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  117. Jack D says:

    So you are telling me that the elites in the North and South made the decisions but that the common people paid the price?

    I am shocked, shocked to hear this. When in history has this ever happened? Thank God that nothing like this could happen in the US today!

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  118. @AnotherDad

    This is one reason for the rapid increase in separatism. There are of course many others, cultural, economic, linguistic, etc… But I believe opening borders also creates a vacuum in the centre of the current states. Almost nothing they do makes sense with open borders and mass migration.
     
    Excellent comment Beckow.

    Either the nation state does its job--in which case it tends to coalesce the people into a nation. (Some states are just not setup on the correct national boundaries to do that, but most, outside African seem to be good enough.) Or it doesn't and then there's just no point.

    ~~
    Mentally preparing my comment on Steve's post, I was going to point out that the EU has generated a bunch of the regional nationalist we see in the EU. People in those areas basically think that nothing substantive will change with succession, they'll still be in the EU have the same trade and freedom of movement. Military and defense no longer matter, so the extra costs there are minimal. Duplicating bureaucracy--heck a bunch of that's already in the EU. So add it all up and it looks like a chance to get the ego boost of waving one's small national banner with minimal cost.

    Not a Scot, never been there, not super-familiar with the debate, but from what I can tell it's not really Scottish nationalism. The SNP doesn't propose leaving to protect Scotland from the coming diversity debacle that London has created in England or that Merkel/EU is creating in Europe. Rather they want to leave the UK, but then join the EU, get big EU subsidies and encourage *more* immigration. Seriously. That's not "nationalism" it's a petulant leftist hissy.

    Real Scottish nationalism would involve lots more Scots guys knocking-up Scots girls and producing lots more Scots babies, raised in Scottish culture to turn around their low TFR and population decline.

    People in those areas basically think that nothing substantive will change with succession, they’ll still be in the EU have the same trade and freedom of movement.

    If At First You Don’t Secede, Try And Try Again!

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  119. eD says:

    I came here to comment on Steve’s main point, but got distracted by some of the commentators. The commentators on this thread have been unusually erudite, especially Berkow’s, which I won’t comment on.

    But about secession referenda, on Steve’s argument yes it should be two consecutive votes with a period of time between the two. No, the rest of the entity shouldn’t have a say because it may be a situation where the place trying to secede is being exploited by the majority. Constitutional amendments also should be the same principle, two successive “yes” votes with a period of time in between for reflection, with no supermajority requirement.

    It should be noted that in practice secession referenda historically have almost always failed, and the only exceptions are when they are ratifying a fait accompli (after the fact). The central government has formidable resources in propaganda to deploy in the putative seceding country to get a “no” vote, which is why you don’t extend it to the metropolitan part of the nation unless you want to guarantee that all these things fail. We’ve had alot of practice in this, and the best approach has proved to be for the central government is to let it go ahead and defeat it at the polls, something the British/ Canadian establishment understood so I wonder what is going on in Madrid.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    I've always had a problem with the "winner take all" aspect of democracy. If there are 501 people in favor of X and 499 against, then X wins and 499 people are left 100% dissatisfied. Or if on election day, 2 really stupid people change their mind because they've seen some misleading commercial that says that X eats live babies (it turns out that he eats live baby carrots) then the whole outcome flips and now the 499 people who loved X get nothing. Either we get Hillary or we get her polar opposite based up a handful of voters changing their mind at the last minute. Something is wrong with that. Maybe elective terms should be split up based upon the proportion of the vote that you get? What if we had 8 year terms and if you got 60% of the vote your term would be 4.8 years and the other guy would get 3.2 yrs. (Below some threshold - say 1/3, you would get nothing so you wouldn't have some 3rd party candidate be president for 2 weeks. Only the top 2 finishers would split their terms.) This would also lower the stakes in elections - is it worth $600 million to lengthen your term by a few weeks?

    The US Founding Fathers required supermajority votes in case of certain really important decisions such as Constitutional amendments so that it wouldn't be easy to just get rid of the whole constitutional framework with a simple majority vote. It strikes me that tearing your country in half is such a decision. By the way, why should only people leaving get to decide? That doesn't seem fair either. Shouldn't the rest of us be able to expel a state or territory? I vote in favor of expelling Puerto Rico right now - I think they are exploiting US.

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  120. Jack D says:
    @AnotherDad

    This is one reason for the rapid increase in separatism. There are of course many others, cultural, economic, linguistic, etc… But I believe opening borders also creates a vacuum in the centre of the current states. Almost nothing they do makes sense with open borders and mass migration.
     
    Excellent comment Beckow.

    Either the nation state does its job--in which case it tends to coalesce the people into a nation. (Some states are just not setup on the correct national boundaries to do that, but most, outside African seem to be good enough.) Or it doesn't and then there's just no point.

    ~~
    Mentally preparing my comment on Steve's post, I was going to point out that the EU has generated a bunch of the regional nationalist we see in the EU. People in those areas basically think that nothing substantive will change with succession, they'll still be in the EU have the same trade and freedom of movement. Military and defense no longer matter, so the extra costs there are minimal. Duplicating bureaucracy--heck a bunch of that's already in the EU. So add it all up and it looks like a chance to get the ego boost of waving one's small national banner with minimal cost.

    Not a Scot, never been there, not super-familiar with the debate, but from what I can tell it's not really Scottish nationalism. The SNP doesn't propose leaving to protect Scotland from the coming diversity debacle that London has created in England or that Merkel/EU is creating in Europe. Rather they want to leave the UK, but then join the EU, get big EU subsidies and encourage *more* immigration. Seriously. That's not "nationalism" it's a petulant leftist hissy.

    Real Scottish nationalism would involve lots more Scots guys knocking-up Scots girls and producing lots more Scots babies, raised in Scottish culture to turn around their low TFR and population decline.

    All of the “independence” movements in Europe are really phony. None of these countries could exist in the long run without being under the umbrella of NATO and the EU. Does any of them have a military that could resist invasion or an economy that could support itself?

    Recently the hurricane went thru a few little chicken shit “countries” in the Caribbean that were former British colonies. Five minutes after the hurricane was over they were begging the former mother country for help.

    All it takes is one ruthless Putin-like character next door and the “independence” of any of these places is over.

    The current stuff going on shows how important it is for national unity to suppress all minority languages. It seems “cute” and harmless to allow minorities to keep their own language but it is deadly. A separate language community is fertile ground for separatism. The US had better kill off Spanish before it is too late.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    You're right about the surge of Spanish as a major balkanizing force in the USA. I like the language but it should not be allowed to elbow aside our traditional common language and culture.
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  121. Madrid Government Workers Violently Steal Ballot Boxes In Catalonia:

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  122. globalists also encourage the scottish nationalist movement for the same reason: UK and Spain are old empires what can function independently of the EU – small countries cannot-divide and conquer.

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  123. A more general comment on elections and majoritarianism: in the Middle Ages elections were often decided by the maior et sanior pars, the larger and wiser part. We’re seemingly wedded to one-man/one-vote-ism, but the corporate world is filled with voting and nonvoting shares, weighted voting privileges, special classes of directors, etc. Time to bring that to the civic arena?

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  124. Read More
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    I have to think the globalists are actually stirring this up - the EU is trying to break up the larger nation states so they can end the nation state- an 'independent' catalonia is entirely dependent on the the EU
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  125. Jack D says:
    @eD
    I came here to comment on Steve's main point, but got distracted by some of the commentators. The commentators on this thread have been unusually erudite, especially Berkow's, which I won't comment on.

    But about secession referenda, on Steve's argument yes it should be two consecutive votes with a period of time between the two. No, the rest of the entity shouldn't have a say because it may be a situation where the place trying to secede is being exploited by the majority. Constitutional amendments also should be the same principle, two successive "yes" votes with a period of time in between for reflection, with no supermajority requirement.

    It should be noted that in practice secession referenda historically have almost always failed, and the only exceptions are when they are ratifying a fait accompli (after the fact). The central government has formidable resources in propaganda to deploy in the putative seceding country to get a "no" vote, which is why you don't extend it to the metropolitan part of the nation unless you want to guarantee that all these things fail. We've had alot of practice in this, and the best approach has proved to be for the central government is to let it go ahead and defeat it at the polls, something the British/ Canadian establishment understood so I wonder what is going on in Madrid.

    I’ve always had a problem with the “winner take all” aspect of democracy. If there are 501 people in favor of X and 499 against, then X wins and 499 people are left 100% dissatisfied. Or if on election day, 2 really stupid people change their mind because they’ve seen some misleading commercial that says that X eats live babies (it turns out that he eats live baby carrots) then the whole outcome flips and now the 499 people who loved X get nothing. Either we get Hillary or we get her polar opposite based up a handful of voters changing their mind at the last minute. Something is wrong with that. Maybe elective terms should be split up based upon the proportion of the vote that you get? What if we had 8 year terms and if you got 60% of the vote your term would be 4.8 years and the other guy would get 3.2 yrs. (Below some threshold – say 1/3, you would get nothing so you wouldn’t have some 3rd party candidate be president for 2 weeks. Only the top 2 finishers would split their terms.) This would also lower the stakes in elections – is it worth $600 million to lengthen your term by a few weeks?

    The US Founding Fathers required supermajority votes in case of certain really important decisions such as Constitutional amendments so that it wouldn’t be easy to just get rid of the whole constitutional framework with a simple majority vote. It strikes me that tearing your country in half is such a decision. By the way, why should only people leaving get to decide? That doesn’t seem fair either. Shouldn’t the rest of us be able to expel a state or territory? I vote in favor of expelling Puerto Rico right now – I think they are exploiting US.

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    • Replies: @eD
    Actually parliamentary systems with proportional representation, like Germany which just had an election, work sort of this way. Only presidential systems are winner take all.

    One weird thing about the Catalan crisis is that Spain has a parliamentary system with proportional representation, and had a deadlocked election last year. Its not clear where exactly how central Spanish government is getting the support to take such a hard line.
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  126. Pat Boyle says:
    @Beckow
    One of the main functions of a central government is to control the country's borders. That is why there is a central government. This used to be more military based, with occasional actual wars, but today it is about who comes across the border, who gets to stay, in other words migration policies.

    In the last few decades this core function performed by central governments has been gradually abandoned. So when parts of these larger states - like Catalonia in Spain - look at their capitals they don't see much value. With unguarded and open borders, large centralised states make no sense.

    This is one reason for the rapid increase in separatism. There are of course many others, cultural, economic, linguistic, etc... But I believe opening borders also creates a vacuum in the centre of the current states. Almost nothing they do makes sense with open borders and mass migration. How can there be educational or health policies with open access from outside? Or a normal labor market leading to a normal economy? Or cultural policies? Mass migration with effectively unprotected borders make all central state functions pointless. One reaction is an increased desire to separate by constituent parts of the state. This is what the Brussels (and Washington) ruling elites don't get. They have been so obsessed with not allowing a 'power vacuum' internationally, that they stopped caring about not creating a de facto governing vacuums inside the countries they are supposed to be governing.

    Disintegration is one consequence of not having effective external boundaries. The global mandarins have been dreaming about a seamless, integrated, one-world with no borders global super-state (or a smaller European one), but they lost sight of how that changes the dynamic inside their existing countries. We are heading towards a period of more nationalism, more separatism, more disintegration that is really just re-integrating in a different way what has been stupidly abandoned by the global utopians. It will be messy. I wish both Catalans and Spaniards good luck - but if Madrid wants to stop the separatism, they should do their job and control the external borders.

    Italian opera owes a lot to Catalan. Jose Carreras grew up in Barcelona and couldn’t speak Spanish until his family was forced out of Spain and they moved to Mexico. Nor was he the only great Catalan tenor at that time. Giacomo Aragall was also Catalonian. Aragall was the best Cavaradossi I ever heard and that included Corelli, Pavarotti and many, many others.

    On the distaff side there was Monserrat Caballe – arguably the finest soprano in her fach on earth. I often laughed at her singing on records – it wasn’t fair, no one could sing like that. I pitied every other soprano.

    If Catalonian independence means a continuation of their record of great singers – I’m enthusiastically for it.

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    I happen to have a compact disc consisting of Catalan songs sung by Carreras. Catalan sounds like a cross between Spanish and French. Indeed, it is said to be similar to Provencal.
    , @Steve Sailer
    The British parliamentary system is highly winner take all. There is little in the way of checks and balances, especially because lower levels of government don't have much in the way of rights. Margaret Thatcher didn't like the mayor of London so she just abolished his job.

    The British system is optimized for quick action, while still making the government accountable. It's kind of a pirate ship system.
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  127. AM says:
    @AnotherDad

    This is one reason for the rapid increase in separatism. There are of course many others, cultural, economic, linguistic, etc… But I believe opening borders also creates a vacuum in the centre of the current states. Almost nothing they do makes sense with open borders and mass migration.
     
    Excellent comment Beckow.

    Either the nation state does its job--in which case it tends to coalesce the people into a nation. (Some states are just not setup on the correct national boundaries to do that, but most, outside African seem to be good enough.) Or it doesn't and then there's just no point.

    ~~
    Mentally preparing my comment on Steve's post, I was going to point out that the EU has generated a bunch of the regional nationalist we see in the EU. People in those areas basically think that nothing substantive will change with succession, they'll still be in the EU have the same trade and freedom of movement. Military and defense no longer matter, so the extra costs there are minimal. Duplicating bureaucracy--heck a bunch of that's already in the EU. So add it all up and it looks like a chance to get the ego boost of waving one's small national banner with minimal cost.

    Not a Scot, never been there, not super-familiar with the debate, but from what I can tell it's not really Scottish nationalism. The SNP doesn't propose leaving to protect Scotland from the coming diversity debacle that London has created in England or that Merkel/EU is creating in Europe. Rather they want to leave the UK, but then join the EU, get big EU subsidies and encourage *more* immigration. Seriously. That's not "nationalism" it's a petulant leftist hissy.

    Real Scottish nationalism would involve lots more Scots guys knocking-up Scots girls and producing lots more Scots babies, raised in Scottish culture to turn around their low TFR and population decline.

    People in those areas basically think that nothing substantive will change with succession, they’ll still be in the EU have the same trade and freedom of movement. Military and defense no longer matter, so the extra costs there are minimal. Duplicating bureaucracy–heck a bunch of that’s already in the EU. So add it all up and it looks like a chance to get the ego boost of waving one’s small national banner with minimal cost.

    People have been discussing the Quebec separatist movement here, but what went under appreciated was that most of the Francophone politicians who got so much mileage out of it wanted to “negotiate” an exit. It wasn’t Quebec standing on her own.

    There were actually two votes that both failed over 10 years. However, the entire movement was premised on the idea that somehow Canada would share: as in their currency and military. Quebec is crazy socialist, so that wasn’t really a factor.

    What ended the entire movement was putting a formal mechanism in place, close to what Steve has suggested (not a slim 51% majority) with the absolute clarity that it was 100% independence. No sharing of military or currency for any province wishing complete independence.

    Modern “independence” movements are much like teenagers who scream “I hate you, I hate you, I hate you!” and 5 minutes later are asking for a lift to the mall, ideally with some spending cash. Say what you will about them, at least Confederate South left. Whatever this is, it’s not independence.

    Real Scottish nationalism would involve lots more Scots guys knocking-up Scots girls and producing lots more Scots babies, raised in Scottish culture to turn around their low TFR and population decline.

    When French Canadians found themselves being surrounded by English colonists, they started what they termed “the war of the cradle”. The Catholic church was huge in supporting and spreading the word. It was patriotic duty to get married, have like 10 babies, and pass on the faith and the language. (My family tree attests to it.)

    It worked so well that Quebec started to run out of land for farms and French Canadians moved on to elsewhere.

    And now? No faith and no babies. Some french language, socialism, and Cirque du Soleil. That’s it. Asians will be a far more important force going forward, given the demographics.

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    • Replies: @polskijoe
    Catholic places like France and Quebec
    really got hit especially after the 1960s cultural revolutions.
    Now they are the least religious percentage wise.

    Im betting a good amount,
    it had something to do with Latin Freemasonry hating the Catholic Church.

    of course it could have been boredom but that would be secondary to plotting from elites.

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  128. Patrick O’Brian’s Dr. Stephen Maturin was both involved with the Irish rising of 1798 and later was a Catalonian nationalist.

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  129. AM says:
    @eD
    "Surprised the neo-Confederates here don’t mention the secession votes in 1860-61."

    Poorly understood.

    The ones in the Deep South were rigged, let alone that in two Deep South states, slaves made up the majority of the adult population. The Upper South states rejected secession until Lincoln stated taking measures to force the seceding states back into the union, and seceded over that.

    The US Civil War is really poorly understood, and one of the dynamics is that Southern adult whites were mostly opposed to secession and Northern adult whites were at least ambivalent about using force to stop it.

    The Upper South states rejected secession until Lincoln stated taking measures to force the seceding states back into the union, and seceded over that.

    Lincoln gets way too much hero worship. There is every reason to believe that his ineptness before and during the Civil War prolonged and made it the complete disaster in terms of human life that it was.

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    • Replies: @Flip
    I personally would have let the South go, but I think the South would have gotten its independence but for Lincoln's actions, so you have to give him credit for that.
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  130. AM says:
    @eD
    "As the great Enoch Powell put it, ‘Either a nation is sovereign or it is not. Anything else is merely local government’."

    This is an interesting thread, but in this case Powell's classical scholarship shown through, because this is actually what happened with the Roman Empire.

    The Roman Empire until Diocletian's reforms were always a series of ad-hoc arrangements, and it was never a case of a Roman unitary state presiding over a series of provinces that you see on maps in standard historical atlases. The "provinces" were really military commands, just as the US government divides the world into, and existing independent city-states such as Athens and Sparta still remained as such, unless specific arrangements were made otherwise, such as the Roman annexation of the Alexandrian successor states. Citizens of Athens and Sparta remained citizens of Athens and Sparta, had to go through immigration and pay customs duties when they visited Italy, magistrates were chosen without interference of the governor, etc.

    By the way, this was also the case in the province of Judea, which remained under the control of the Macabee founded priesthood, which is why Pilate, and the couple of soldiers who accompanied him on his visit to Jerusalem, could do nothing about the conviction of Jesus for blasphemy, an offense under (Sadducee) Jewish but not Roman law, other than ratify his execution under the procedures in place to ensure that no Roman citizens traveling in that area fell victim to local customs, a procedure which later saved St. Paul's life.

    The classical educated British elite were well aware of this dynamic, Toynbee also often discusses it. Over time what happened is that even though these local tribes and cities locally had wide autonomy, their lack of sovereignty, they couldn't make decisions about war and peace, meant that the autonomy was doomed too. Local elites just weren't as interested and Emperors and their aides just couldn't resist sticking their noses into local matters. Eventually you got universal Roman citizenship and then the Soviet style system set up by Diocletian.

    Both the (British) Commonwealth and the European (Common Market) Union were started with this dynamic in mind, but developed in different directions.

    which is why Pilate, and the couple of soldiers who accompanied him on his visit to Jerusalem, could do nothing about the conviction of Jesus for blasphemy, an offense under (Sadducee) Jewish but not Roman law,

    Pilate actually could have rejected their petition for punishment, as Jesus was not worthy of death under Roman law. That’s why the Jews even had to go him in the first place to ask for his death, which was humiliation of sorts for them. The Romans would punish them for carrying out anything else but Roman justice.

    The issue is they were about to riot and Pilate had gotten in trouble previously for being to heavy handed in Judea. Judea was not exactly a plum assignment anyway but he needed to keep it and order if he was to get out of this annoying Jewish backwater with a career.

    Jesus, in his mind, was a small, if annoying, sacrifice to make. The exchanges in the Gospels make it clear Pilate wasn’t excited about his part in the death of what appeared be in the Roman mind, at worst, an armyless crackpot. A plausible explanation of why Pilates put “King of the Jews” on Jesus’ cross was to get back at those Jews who not only disturbed him on a weekend, they wouldn’t even set foot in his office (the honor he was due) because of “Reasons” that would have been foreign to him.

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  131. Art says:

    The regional city state is in humanities future. The closer that government is to the people, the less dictatorial it becomes. Even though it is often corrupt – local government is always better.

    The nation state has outlived its usefulness. Nation state democracy is losing out to the power of bigness – big banks, big corporations, big military, big media, and big bureaucracy. “We the people” are given lip service. The nation state has become a “Deep State” – it is the source of geopolitical forces that disrespect the will of the masses. The average person is becoming a serf to the Deep State that masquerades as a democracy.

    The sovereignty of people is giving way to the sovereignty of the deep state government itself. The tail is wagging the dog.

    People demand and need an identity – we all want to belong to something – belonging to a “locality” is the safest, non-belligerent, stable, rational, natural identity available to human kind. The identity of religion, race, and sex is all sublimated to “locality.”

    Hail the regional city state.

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    • Replies: @David Davenport
    People demand and need an identity – we all want to belong to something – belonging to a “locality” is the safest, non-belligerent, stable, rational, natural identity available to human kind. The identity of religion, race, and sex is all sublimated to “locality.”

    Hail the regional city state.


    I get it: Regional city-states are the hip new Small is Beautiful. Make CA a sanctuary state!

    Where a person can find his or her non-belligerent, rational, natural identity, yes ma'am!
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  132. Lurker says:
    @DFH
    Funny how alleged nationalists like Richard Spencer seem to hate the idea of Catalan independence so much

    Funny how alleged nationalist movements can be so pro-EU and mass non-European immigration.

    For example the Scottish Nationalists seem to think there is a problem with immigration into Scotland – there isn’t enough of it.

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  133. eD says:
    @Opinionator
    Are you saying that pre-Diocletian provinces were sovereign or were not sovereign?

    “Are you saying that pre-Diocletian provinces were sovereign or were not sovereign?”

    At risk of thread hijacking, during the Republic, the “provinces” were really just military commands. People like Verres, who Cicero prosecuted, were supposedly just there to command the Roman forces in the area. Though post Republic, officially Pilate’s authority was that he was supposed to be looking after Octavian’s economic interests -to make sure the taxes were collected and no Roman citizens were stoned to death.

    Within the commands or provinces, the Romans annexed some kingdoms and some places remained independent on paper until quite late. The tendency was over time for more and more places to be annexed and the provincial governors to get more involved in local government.

    Making everyone in the empire a Roman citizen in the early third century AD was really the turning point and Diocletian really just recognized the reality (Diocletian abolished all the old jurisdictions and created a new system of local government from scratch). Even though lots of jurisdictions were legally independent, without the ability to do foreign policy they really weren’t, which is the point here. And these places did have control over immigration and customs.

    The provinces weren’t independent, but within the provinces there were still legally independent city-states.

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  134. eD says:
    @Jack D
    I've always had a problem with the "winner take all" aspect of democracy. If there are 501 people in favor of X and 499 against, then X wins and 499 people are left 100% dissatisfied. Or if on election day, 2 really stupid people change their mind because they've seen some misleading commercial that says that X eats live babies (it turns out that he eats live baby carrots) then the whole outcome flips and now the 499 people who loved X get nothing. Either we get Hillary or we get her polar opposite based up a handful of voters changing their mind at the last minute. Something is wrong with that. Maybe elective terms should be split up based upon the proportion of the vote that you get? What if we had 8 year terms and if you got 60% of the vote your term would be 4.8 years and the other guy would get 3.2 yrs. (Below some threshold - say 1/3, you would get nothing so you wouldn't have some 3rd party candidate be president for 2 weeks. Only the top 2 finishers would split their terms.) This would also lower the stakes in elections - is it worth $600 million to lengthen your term by a few weeks?

    The US Founding Fathers required supermajority votes in case of certain really important decisions such as Constitutional amendments so that it wouldn't be easy to just get rid of the whole constitutional framework with a simple majority vote. It strikes me that tearing your country in half is such a decision. By the way, why should only people leaving get to decide? That doesn't seem fair either. Shouldn't the rest of us be able to expel a state or territory? I vote in favor of expelling Puerto Rico right now - I think they are exploiting US.

    Actually parliamentary systems with proportional representation, like Germany which just had an election, work sort of this way. Only presidential systems are winner take all.

    One weird thing about the Catalan crisis is that Spain has a parliamentary system with proportional representation, and had a deadlocked election last year. Its not clear where exactly how central Spanish government is getting the support to take such a hard line.

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  135. 22pp22 says:

    As they used to say in London when English people still lived there,

    It’s Pu”in wo” done i”.

    https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/01/inenglish/1506854868_900501.html

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    • Replies: @hyperbola
    To understand that, you have to know that El Pais is NOT a spanish newspaper.

    Europe's “Bought Journalists” - Counterpunch
    https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/08/02/europes-bought-journalists/

    Not that long ago in Europe, one had to go to a church, a temple or a mosque to imbibe industrial quantities of religious doctrine.

    Since the beginning of the 21st century, however, it has become possible to access it in a great and self-satisfied profusion on the editorial pages of the continent’s “serious” and nominally progressive dailies, papers like The Guardian, El País, La Repubblica, Le Monde, and Suddeutsche Zeitung.

    The particular brand of theology being pushed?

    Neo-Liberal Imperialism, something the faith’s leading clerics—people like Timothy Garton-Ash, Niall Ferguson. Moisés Naim, Mario Vargas Llosa, Hermann Tertsch, Antonio Caño, Joseph Joffe, and that erstwhile philosopher-clown, Bernard Henry-Levi—prefer to describe in terms of “promoting trans-Atlantic partnerships” and creating and maintaining “Open Societies”......
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  136. @YetAnotherAnon
    Catalonia is precisely the reason why Scottish independence was likely to have seen Scottish EU accession blocked, Spain would have vetoed it. Current rules accession IIRC require all existing members to approve.

    OTOH, if the EU changed the rules and allowed Catalonia in, there'd be an immediate crisis with Spain. The Spanish government might (like Greece) have put up with mass youth unemployment to stay in the euro, but chopping a bit off Spain? The Basques would be next in line, then you have the two most productive areas of Spain gone.

    RomanCandle - "Barcelona soccer club has made a killing marketing itself as a sort of anti-Spain"

    Great post btw, the varied interests and expertise of the Unz commentariat never fails to amaze.

    Nothing against Spain, but I suppose I’d be happy for the Basques and Catalans if they both secede and become independent countries. I just hope that they can so peacefully.

    I’d also hope that the numerous new small ethnostates and the larger original countries have the sense to sign a mutual defense agreement and a favorable trade agreement with each other, including Catalan-Spain and Basqueland-Spain-France. Give sovereignty and the pride of cultural independence to each people who wants it and can peacefully coexist with its neighbors, without giving up the man benefits of the current bonds in a single country and in the EU.

    For the same reason, i would hope the new countries would not just defeat the whole purpose by applying to re join the damn EU. Anyone know the sense of the people there re being truly independent or effectively staying in the EU as smaller members?

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    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    Anyone know the sense of the people there re being truly independent or effectively staying in the EU as smaller members?Definitely staying within the EU. They want political and linguistic autonomy vis-a-vis Spain. They'll probably get more autonomy inside the EU than as part of Spain. The problem is if all of Europe goes their way, who's gonna defend the borders? Because every EU country and subdivision is thinking about how much money he'll save by zeroing out the defense budget. Ireland doesn't need a military because Great Britain. What if Britain devolved into Wessex, East Anglia, Kent, Cornwall and so on, and zeroed out its defense budget along with the rest of Europe?
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  137. Lurker says:

    I don’t know enough about it but just from cursory glances at the BBC I learn that Catalan democracy is something to be taken seriously. I also know from the last few years of BBC output that Brexit is characterised as an absurd joke.

    Thus I suspect Catalan independence is seen as OK with the Deep State or they are at least ambivalent to it.

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  138. @Matra
    Nor do I foresee the Quebeckers even seceding at all for that matter. Nowadays it’s largely a bluff to extort concessions form Ottawa.

    The 1995 referendum was probably their last chance. They lost narrowly despite 60% of white Francophones voting for "sovereignty". Two decades later the demographics are much less favourable due to immigration and the younger generation of Francophones not being as nationalistic as their parents.

    Same with the Scottish referendum, only the majority of the “immigrant vote” was English. Despite a couple of high profile Muslim SNP people, I’d imagine the majority of the (small but non-negligible) immigrant community also voted to stay with the UK aka the political unit that let them immigrate in the beginning.

    Interesting BBC radio coverage of Catalonia tonight. 700 injured in fighting between Catalans and Spanish police, and the BBC is reporting “just the facts, ma’am”. Usually they let you know immediately who the good guys and the bad guys are, so you’ve no need to work it out for yourself. They can’t get their heads round this one, so they can’t signal who we should support.

    Usual Reporting style A “Over 700 people were injured after the right-wing Prime Minister of Spain, Mariano Rajoy, ordered paramilitary police to break up the Catalan independence referendum by force. Shocking scenes of police violence against people trying to vote were reported. The following report contains scenes some viewers may find disturbing.”

    Usual Reporting style B “Over 700 people were injured when right-wing Catalan activists clashed with Spanish police after Prime Minister Rajoy of Spain ordered them to stop what he said was an illegal independence referendum. The following report contains scenes some viewers may find disturbing (show report of activists throwing things at police).”

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  139. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Speaking of Italy and apropos of nothing much, really, it is interesting to note that in the northeastern part of Italy near the border with Austria there are pockets where both the Italian and German languages co-exist, this area having been taken by Italy from defeated Austria-Hungary after The Great War. You never hear any complaints from these people about cultural and/or linguistic oppression, probably because it doesn’t exist. As to Catalonia, I have no “gos” (Catalan for “dog”) in this fight.

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    • Replies: @JRB
    Maybe you should read this wikipedia article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Tyrolean_secessionist_movement )
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  140. Flip says:
    @AM

    The Upper South states rejected secession until Lincoln stated taking measures to force the seceding states back into the union, and seceded over that.
     
    Lincoln gets way too much hero worship. There is every reason to believe that his ineptness before and during the Civil War prolonged and made it the complete disaster in terms of human life that it was.

    I personally would have let the South go, but I think the South would have gotten its independence but for Lincoln’s actions, so you have to give him credit for that.

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    • Replies: @AM

    but I think the South would have gotten its independence but for Lincoln’s actions, so you have to give him credit for that.
     
    I think this fair. :)
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  141. @Charles Pewitt
    https://twitter.com/paulmelia4/status/914582096034791424

    I have to think the globalists are actually stirring this up – the EU is trying to break up the larger nation states so they can end the nation state- an ‘independent’ catalonia is entirely dependent on the the EU

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Yep.
    The buzzword a few years ago was ' a Europe of the regions'.
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  142. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences

    Narcissism of small differences.

    We see this all around.

    In Europe, whites fight whites while each side embraces and welcomes non-white invaders and colonizers as allies or friends or objects of worship. Catalan and Castille bash each other while hugging Negroes to show that they are not ‘racist’ and so wonderful by PC rules.

    But we see the same dynamics in the Middle East. Arabs fight Arabs, and Muslims fight Muslims. And all sides invite Western or foreign intervention to help their side against OTHER Muslims. So, Saudis side with the US to harm Syria. Syria sides with Russia. Because Muslims and Arabs always fight among each other, foreign powers can take advantage of the conflict. It’s like what Lawrence said of Arabs, but it also applies to Europeans and whites.

    And we see it in East Asia. Because of the divisions and bickering among Vietnamese, Chinese, North/South Koreans, and Japanese — these yellows can’t seem to work together — , the US gets to play divide and rule among over the Pacific region.

    At Charlottesville, Alt Right should have marched with the Flags of every European nation and some white Latin American ones as well. Yes, there are differences among white ethnic groups, but every white person must also be Pan-European and remind himself that he has more in common with other whites than with non-whites.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AM

    At Charlottesville, Alt Right should have marched with the Flags of every European nation and some white Latin American ones as well. Yes, there are differences among white ethnic groups, but every white person must also be Pan-European and remind himself that he has more in common with other whites than with non-whites.
     
    A uniform of a specific kind of T-shirt would have solved Charlottesville. Just something like "Save the Statue" on a blue T-shirt. Forget the "rainbow" garbage - that's approaching the left as the left approaches the politics. It's a guaranteed lose because we aren't the left and most of us won't get the lobotomy necessary to act 100% on our emotions.

    In other words, the alt-right actually has to unite around something at a Unite the Right type event, even if it's a lousy T-shirt. If my reactionary Catholic politics is not appropriate (should I have brought a pro-life sign and large crucifix?), then that's not the moment to LARP as a Nazi or whatever. Having unity means expressing visually as well.

    Look at Trump - he prints up a bunch of ball caps with 4 words in white and suddenly he's got blacks, gays, and Chinese putting them as at least a small part of his campaign. It's just so universally recognizable. Pepe is a perfect little mascot. There's all the makings of something great there if the alt-right can work through it's libertarian growing pains.

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  143. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Catalonia wants independence cuz Spain mooches off it.
    Puerto Rico doesn’t want independence cuz it mooches off US.
    Well, $$ explains a lot.

    The more I look at the case of Puerto, the more I admire Castro who kicked out the mafia and gained true independence.

    Unfortunately, he chose Leninism than Ataturkism.

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  144. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Ali Choudhury
    If the rest of.the UK had voted in the Scottish referendum it is quite possible English, Welsh and northern Irish votes would have been in favour of ejecting them from the Union. Scottish North Sea oil off the coast of Aberdeen is petering out and Scottish demographics are poor and worsening.

    London and the south east subsidise the rest of the country and getting rid of the Scots would mean more of the economic cake could be shared between the rest.

    The English interest in keeping Scotland in the union was never economic but military. Not having a land border with a potentially hostile power greatly simplified English foreign policy.

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  145. Media outlets are claiming 90% Yes vote and Catalan leader Puigdemont is saying that the Catalan parliament is going to delare indepenence on the basis of this vote.

    Except that in 2015 there were 5. 5 million registered voters in Catalonia, so it looks like three million or more didn’t turn up. Not because they were lazy, but because this was an illegal vote.

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    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Tsar Nicholas wrote:

    Except that in 2015 there were 5. 5 million registered voters in Catalonia, so it looks like three million or more didn’t turn up. Not because they were lazy, but because this was an illegal vote.
     
    Or, just maybe, a lot of people did not show up because the police were shooting voters with rubber bullets?

    I do think the central government might well have won the vote had they not engaged in such violent thuggery.
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  146. Jake says:

    “again, the tragedy of the Spanish Right alienating potential allies through its French-originating centralism.”

    That is true not just of the world of Spain. It is true of the UK and any other empire that rules over peoples of different languages and regional dialects and significantly different folkways. The English Right became the most self-righteous bulldozer of various British Isles local cultures imaginable. The English Right intended to force all those peoples into the mold of what the English saw as conserving Englishness, meaning what the nobility and the super rich of London and the southeast of England wanted.

    And that guaranteed that the culturally and religiously conservative peoples of other parts of the British Isles, parts of England almost as much as in Celtic lands, tended to vote Left in defense of their local cultures against the imperially crushing and grinding English Right.

    Imperialist violence, against folkways and economies as much as against bodies, always breeds blowback that supports political, economic, and then cultural and moral Liberalism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @LondonBob
    British imperialism was largely a Scots affair, deeply conservative English nationalism has been treated as a grave threat. Once the English colonies were lost we went from the English empire to the British empire.
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  147. AM says:
    @Flip
    I personally would have let the South go, but I think the South would have gotten its independence but for Lincoln's actions, so you have to give him credit for that.

    but I think the South would have gotten its independence but for Lincoln’s actions, so you have to give him credit for that.

    I think this fair. :)

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  148. polskijoe says:

    My guess it is divide and conquer:

    Possibly a small struggle between EU and US (neither of them are good).
    EU wants Catalonia and larger support for EU, future EU army.
    US wants larger support for NATO and Zio.

    I dont know much about this though.
    We shall find out in the near future.

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  149. polskijoe says:
    @AM

    People in those areas basically think that nothing substantive will change with succession, they’ll still be in the EU have the same trade and freedom of movement. Military and defense no longer matter, so the extra costs there are minimal. Duplicating bureaucracy–heck a bunch of that’s already in the EU. So add it all up and it looks like a chance to get the ego boost of waving one’s small national banner with minimal cost.
     
    People have been discussing the Quebec separatist movement here, but what went under appreciated was that most of the Francophone politicians who got so much mileage out of it wanted to "negotiate" an exit. It wasn't Quebec standing on her own.

    There were actually two votes that both failed over 10 years. However, the entire movement was premised on the idea that somehow Canada would share: as in their currency and military. Quebec is crazy socialist, so that wasn't really a factor.

    What ended the entire movement was putting a formal mechanism in place, close to what Steve has suggested (not a slim 51% majority) with the absolute clarity that it was 100% independence. No sharing of military or currency for any province wishing complete independence.

    Modern "independence" movements are much like teenagers who scream "I hate you, I hate you, I hate you!" and 5 minutes later are asking for a lift to the mall, ideally with some spending cash. Say what you will about them, at least Confederate South left. Whatever this is, it's not independence.


    Real Scottish nationalism would involve lots more Scots guys knocking-up Scots girls and producing lots more Scots babies, raised in Scottish culture to turn around their low TFR and population decline.
     
    When French Canadians found themselves being surrounded by English colonists, they started what they termed "the war of the cradle". The Catholic church was huge in supporting and spreading the word. It was patriotic duty to get married, have like 10 babies, and pass on the faith and the language. (My family tree attests to it.)

    It worked so well that Quebec started to run out of land for farms and French Canadians moved on to elsewhere.

    And now? No faith and no babies. Some french language, socialism, and Cirque du Soleil. That's it. Asians will be a far more important force going forward, given the demographics.

    Catholic places like France and Quebec
    really got hit especially after the 1960s cultural revolutions.
    Now they are the least religious percentage wise.

    Im betting a good amount,
    it had something to do with Latin Freemasonry hating the Catholic Church.

    of course it could have been boredom but that would be secondary to plotting from elites.

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  150. Really if Scotland can be taken at all seriously as a candidate for independence from the rest of the United Kingdom, there is nothing to stop South Florida breaking away from Tallahassee on a line with Tampa and merging with Cuba and Puerto Rico. It would be better for everyone, especially baseball fans.

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  151. AM says:
    @Anon
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism_of_small_differences

    Narcissism of small differences.

    We see this all around.

    In Europe, whites fight whites while each side embraces and welcomes non-white invaders and colonizers as allies or friends or objects of worship. Catalan and Castille bash each other while hugging Negroes to show that they are not 'racist' and so wonderful by PC rules.

    But we see the same dynamics in the Middle East. Arabs fight Arabs, and Muslims fight Muslims. And all sides invite Western or foreign intervention to help their side against OTHER Muslims. So, Saudis side with the US to harm Syria. Syria sides with Russia. Because Muslims and Arabs always fight among each other, foreign powers can take advantage of the conflict. It's like what Lawrence said of Arabs, but it also applies to Europeans and whites.

    https://youtu.be/4gMt1PBC5BU?t=3m39s

    And we see it in East Asia. Because of the divisions and bickering among Vietnamese, Chinese, North/South Koreans, and Japanese -- these yellows can't seem to work together -- , the US gets to play divide and rule among over the Pacific region.

    At Charlottesville, Alt Right should have marched with the Flags of every European nation and some white Latin American ones as well. Yes, there are differences among white ethnic groups, but every white person must also be Pan-European and remind himself that he has more in common with other whites than with non-whites.

    At Charlottesville, Alt Right should have marched with the Flags of every European nation and some white Latin American ones as well. Yes, there are differences among white ethnic groups, but every white person must also be Pan-European and remind himself that he has more in common with other whites than with non-whites.

    A uniform of a specific kind of T-shirt would have solved Charlottesville. Just something like “Save the Statue” on a blue T-shirt. Forget the “rainbow” garbage – that’s approaching the left as the left approaches the politics. It’s a guaranteed lose because we aren’t the left and most of us won’t get the lobotomy necessary to act 100% on our emotions.

    In other words, the alt-right actually has to unite around something at a Unite the Right type event, even if it’s a lousy T-shirt. If my reactionary Catholic politics is not appropriate (should I have brought a pro-life sign and large crucifix?), then that’s not the moment to LARP as a Nazi or whatever. Having unity means expressing visually as well.

    Look at Trump – he prints up a bunch of ball caps with 4 words in white and suddenly he’s got blacks, gays, and Chinese putting them as at least a small part of his campaign. It’s just so universally recognizable. Pepe is a perfect little mascot. There’s all the makings of something great there if the alt-right can work through it’s libertarian growing pains.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    As a person of color and a Trump supporter:

    A small difference is that Trump doesn't hate us, while the Alt-right arguably does. Trump would actually speak positively of colored Americans, the Alt-Right has made their desires clear. So, that's that.

    You can't expect us to actively hate ourselves, yes? you don't want to do that either
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  152. @Irishman
    I speak Irish to a strong degree. I can make a decent fist of Scots gaelic, which is only a language if you consider Scots a language. But Welsh is a mystery. As alien as Polish.

    The main reason the Scottish referendum failed was the English vote. A majority of Scottish born voters voted for independence. What may kill Scotland and Wales as separate countries is that their rural areas are being slowly transformed by English settlers who are replacing the natives who are moving to the cities. This is even beginning to happen in Ireland. South-west coast of Ireland is a cut-price Cornwall.

    In Northern Ireland I think the immigrant vote would like to be unionist. But Ulster protestants are the ultimate don't play well with others people which is driving them into political no-mans land. It is said about the Palestinians that they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. This is true about both sides in Ulster.

    You obviously don’t live in Scotland, and it shows. No serious observer has claimed that the Independence vote was lost because of the English vote. The latter is just too small.
    Native Scots are not drifting to the Cities. Indeed, Scotland has been a highly urbanised since before WWI, unlike Ireland where the rural population has been significant until quite recently.
    Those English settling in Scotland tend to settle in urban and suburban areas, where nearly all Scots live. Surprisingly, a considerable number are in favour of Independence. In fact, I personally know several who are.
    As regards Ireland, it is obvious that there is a contrast between an increasingly secular Republic of Ireland and a much less secular Northern Ireland. But there are other instances in Europe, for example Spain and Portugal. Northern Ireland is not unique.

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  153. Moshe says:

    I haven’t finished the article yet but I can tell you that the Injuns are still rolling in on every flight.

    But it gets better.

    Rhe government of Madrid officially invites “refugees” to the city with huge signs on city hall and the like.

    And they have an army of recent college grads ti back em up and have weekly protests demanding more. — then again Madridians have all sorts of protests on a weekly basis.

    But again, injuns, including penurious ones are still streaming in.

    This too is “not my problem” and I wish the best for all but – thus far – the article mentioned encouraged immigration through 2008.

    2018 still has it.

    Airbnb is a major issue by the way. It raises housing costs in Barcelona for locals. Many there really don’t like it but, as a potential visitor I hope it doesn’t change.

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  154. Extending the franchise to reliable voters for one party or the other is a mechanism that has been discussed in SciFi novels before (ie, extending it to AIs):

    Quantum Mortis: A man disrupted

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  155. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Jonathan Mason
    The Romance languages tended to emerge out of imperial Latin in a clinal fashion with neighboring villages speaking mutually intelligible dialects, but if you went far enough in any direction, you’d run into people whom you couldn’t quite understand

    Sort of, but it is amazing how, after two thousand years of the Roman empire, its gradual decline and fall, the Dark Ages, the Renaissance, and the European Union, the languages are remarkably mutually understandable. For example when I lived in the Dominican Republic, I was able to understand a significant amount of spoken and written Italian based on by knowledge of Spanish and English. (There are quite a few Italians in the DR.)

    There are some obvious differences in the conjugation of verbs and position of adjectives, but many historic words are similar, and in many modern and technical fields like transportation and medicine, the vocabulary is pretty much the same.

    English: cat, kitten
    Spanish: gato, gatito
    Italian: gatto, gattino

    When it comes to terminology like parts of automobiles, then American English and British English are probably as far apart as Spanish and Italian.

    Bottom line, if an Italian speaker and a Spanish speaker both want to communicate, for example one wants to sell and the other wants to buy, they can usually understand each other enough to get the job done, so the same probably applies to speakers of Catalan and other similar languages such as Portuguese.

    A friend of mine who is from Sicily (outside of Palermo) and who speaks both Sicilian and “Standard” (Tuscan) Italian told me that he can pretty much figure out Romanian, which actually sounds like Italian to the untrained ear.

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  156. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Pat Boyle
    Italian opera owes a lot to Catalan. Jose Carreras grew up in Barcelona and couldn't speak Spanish until his family was forced out of Spain and they moved to Mexico. Nor was he the only great Catalan tenor at that time. Giacomo Aragall was also Catalonian. Aragall was the best Cavaradossi I ever heard and that included Corelli, Pavarotti and many, many others.

    On the distaff side there was Monserrat Caballe - arguably the finest soprano in her fach on earth. I often laughed at her singing on records - it wasn't fair, no one could sing like that. I pitied every other soprano.

    If Catalonian independence means a continuation of their record of great singers - I'm enthusiastically for it.

    I happen to have a compact disc consisting of Catalan songs sung by Carreras. Catalan sounds like a cross between Spanish and French. Indeed, it is said to be similar to Provencal.

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    • Replies: @for-the-record
    Catalan sounds like a cross between Spanish and French. Indeed, it is said to be similar to Provencal.

    Catalan (at least before it was "bastardized" by Spanish influence) and Provençal are essentially both "dialects" of Occitan (the Langue d'Oc, hence the name of the region Languedoc), which was spoken in southern France, northeast Spain and even a bit of Italy. One of the great unknown battles of history was the Battle of Muret (near Toulouse) in 1213 in which the "northern" Crusader (anti-Cathar) army of Simon de Montfort defeated the Catalan, Aragonese and Cathar army led by Peter II, King of Aragon and Count of Barcelona. It was actually a bit of an upset, as the southern forces were favored, and the defeat has traditionally been attributed to Peter's carousing on the eve of battle. Had the battle gone the other way, it is not at all inconceivable that today much of southern France and Catalonia would be a separate country speaking a language not too different from Catalan.
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  157. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @AM

    At Charlottesville, Alt Right should have marched with the Flags of every European nation and some white Latin American ones as well. Yes, there are differences among white ethnic groups, but every white person must also be Pan-European and remind himself that he has more in common with other whites than with non-whites.
     
    A uniform of a specific kind of T-shirt would have solved Charlottesville. Just something like "Save the Statue" on a blue T-shirt. Forget the "rainbow" garbage - that's approaching the left as the left approaches the politics. It's a guaranteed lose because we aren't the left and most of us won't get the lobotomy necessary to act 100% on our emotions.

    In other words, the alt-right actually has to unite around something at a Unite the Right type event, even if it's a lousy T-shirt. If my reactionary Catholic politics is not appropriate (should I have brought a pro-life sign and large crucifix?), then that's not the moment to LARP as a Nazi or whatever. Having unity means expressing visually as well.

    Look at Trump - he prints up a bunch of ball caps with 4 words in white and suddenly he's got blacks, gays, and Chinese putting them as at least a small part of his campaign. It's just so universally recognizable. Pepe is a perfect little mascot. There's all the makings of something great there if the alt-right can work through it's libertarian growing pains.

    As a person of color and a Trump supporter:

    A small difference is that Trump doesn’t hate us, while the Alt-right arguably does. Trump would actually speak positively of colored Americans, the Alt-Right has made their desires clear. So, that’s that.

    You can’t expect us to actively hate ourselves, yes? you don’t want to do that either

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    • Replies: @AM

    A small difference is that Trump doesn’t hate us, while the Alt-right arguably does.
     
    The alt-right are a lot of different people right now. This blog and my thoughts would count as the alt-right, if you asked anyone at the National Review or "mainstream" conservatives. (I get kicked off the National Review as a Disqus commenter for suggesting that HBD might have something to it.) What's holding the alt-right together is a willingness to have an honest discussion about races and the relationships between different groups of people. It's a chaotic place - lots of people who would never normally be talking to each other are being grouped together.

    Yeah, there are the haters, although quite honestly it's better to know where you stand with people. It saves time and shortens the list of potential good friends, although they may prove still to be helpful in some situations.

    But I think your sensible response highlights my point. You are not going to stand in a crowd of Nazi LARPers and I don't blame you one bit. You might stand with the same people if they and you are working, in that moment, for the same goal and have joined you in an expression of that joint goal. So they ditch the Nazi gear and you both don a T-shirt or hat and save the statues.

    Right now too much of the alt-right (although I think it's getting better) wants it's libertarian cake and eat it too. Richard Spencer has some valid points about the coming status of white people as minorities in their own nations, but he's not going to unite anyone with leftist ideals of "rainbowism". Making Nazis Victims and People too (TM), especially after so many white Americans died fighting them is the ultimate lost cause. If the alt-right is going to achieve anything*, it needs to stop trying to compete in the victim Olympics.

    *I'm hoping they do because if they don't I worry about violence - this can end very poorly for everyone and especially the American black community.
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  158. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-41461007

    Soldiers in Cameroon shot dead at least eight people during independence protests in the English-speaking parts of the country.

    … Cameroon is split between English and French-speaking regions after colonisation by Britain and France following World War One.

    … Protests from the English-speaking minority began late last year over concerns they were often excluded from top civil service jobs, and that the French language and legal system have been imposed on them.

    What started as a movement for greater rights has turned into a demand for independence.

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  159. Moshe says:

    Reading RoberTS’s steve-elevated comment while on the go comes across as tmi for me to claim to really understand.

    One thing that he mentions clearly which I should have mentioned as well is the huge influx of mohammedians who are changing the nature of what it means to be a Barthelonian.

    Spain invited their Jews back too.

    My mother’s father comes from the group of Spanish Jews who set up a community in Poland. They were darker rhan Ashkenazim but more or less assimilated. My grandfather even benefited from “ashkenazi privilege” and was starved and enslaved by the germans for 5 years while they murdered his wife and 2 small children. But anyway, he’s of Spanish Jewish origin though I wonder whether I could sufficiently substantiate that.

    What I can tell you though is that this offer is bringing in very few new Jewish citizens.

    In fact most of the new Jewish citizens are from Latin America (and ashkenazi) but there’s no real jewish community in spain since the 15th century and the new world jews are moving back out of spain.

    But anyway, of course most jews wouldn’t be wards of the state while many moroccan muslims are.

    As for the Basques, they’re diasporizing in gaggles and can be found in far points setting up basque-pride quarters out in Van Horn, Tx and with Peruvian sheep herders where nevada meets idaho.

    Of those who remain a plurality still speak the language at home and would like to both be a separate country and part of Spain. And if forced to starkly choose between the two they’re roo comfortable and familiar with spain to have any clue how they would survive on their own.

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    • Replies: @Miro23

    Of those who remain a plurality still speak the language at home and would like to both be a separate country and part of Spain. And if forced to starkly choose between the two they’re too comfortable and familiar with Spain to have any clue how they would survive on their own.
     
    Welcome to the Swiss Confederation.

    They have four different languages, a high degree a local autonomy (Cantons and Communes), weak Federal power, obligatory local participation in politics and mostly local taxation and spending.

    Also, mandatory military service for all male citizens. It's an issue for some of them, so following the rules of Swiss Democracy, they held local debates (obligatory citizen participation) with a referendum in 2013 that gave conscription 73% support - so that was it.

    On the question of preserving national unity (many foreigners in Switzerland), each foreigner has a work contract with an entry and exit date (solidly enforced), with no question of Swiss citizenship. So, everyone knows their status and why they're there.
    , @Anonymous
    I wonder if the obviously dark-complexioned Ed Miliband (former British Labour Party leader) was descended from Sephardim settled in Poland?
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  160. Moshe says:

    By the way, if Catalonia comes into existence and prospers there will be some agitation for independence from other Tongues, though I can’t see other Spanisb principalities actually setting up shop as a completely separate nation from Spain.

    BTW, what would midget Franco do??

    I don’t think he would lose pieces of Spain.

    He was a teeny uncharismatic man but despite the official “opinion” of Spaniards today, he was a serious fella. Once his Army of Africa came up from Morocco to relieve the defenders of Alcazar the Nationalists gained the upper hand.

    I’m curious if anyone knows about Catalonian (and other) demands for independence after the generalissimo took hold of the reigns of power?? It would be interesting to see how he handles it and kept Spain unified.

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    • Replies: @hyperbola
    Well, to start with, remember that Mussolini bombed Barcelona to "help" Franco. Southern France is full of descendents of Catalans that fled Franco.

    Fleeing Franco
    http://www.barcelona-metropolitan.com/features/fleeing-franco/

    Antonio Machado
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Machado


    Tumba De Antonio Machado
    https://www.google.es/maps/place/Tumba+De+Antonio+Machado/@42.5253986,3.0819004,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipNs4RG-931G5cYcKJTZ5oQ08cqmMaS1alK1wNON!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNs4RG-931G5cYcKJTZ5oQ08cqmMaS1alK1wNON%3Dw152-h86-k-no!7i3264!8i1836!4m13!1m7!3m6!1s0x12b07febdbda3043:0x98d3576677842001!2sRue+Antonio+Machado,+66190+Collioure,+Francia!3b1!8m2!3d42.5260996!4d3.0821579!3m4!1s0x0:0xb31ff3687855006c!8m2!3d42.5254908!4d3.0816389
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  161. Daniel H says:
    @Miro23
    I was wondering how long it would take for Catalonia to turn up (actually the day of the independence vote!)

    In relation to the Catalan point, if having a bona fide language and not merely a dialectical variant of the country’s main language is the criterion for justifying a nation-state, then Spain would have about 6 to 7 new countries whilst Italy would fragment into perhaps twice as many.
     
    Not really, as a non-native Spanish speaker , I can understand written and spoken Catalan with some effort, but Basque is completely unintelligible, something like Welsh for an English speaker. Catalan is a dialect of Spanish with some French mixed in.

    But since the Spanish Right also purports to defend the Catholic Spain in the culture wars, it ends up casting itself as a punching bag for the grievances of every weed-smoking co-op buying cat-owning leftie in Catalonia and every other corner of Spain. Such that I have lefty friends in Madrid who are egging on Catalan independence because they hope it will become the incarnation of a Spain they wished to see had the Second Republic triumphed.
     
    I don't doubt it, the Civil War seems to be resurfacing in Catalonia.

    >>Catalan is a dialect of Spanish with some French mixed in.

    Catalan in no way can be classified as a dialect of Spanish. It is it’s own language entirely. Spanish is probably as close to Italian as it is to Catalan. Catalan and Provencal are closely related to each other. Essentially the same language, but French centralizing tendencies in the 19th century squeezed Provencal into a tiny minority language. Whatever happens between Castile and Catalonia I wish the best of luck for the future prospects of the Catalan language, and I believe that those prospects are good.

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  162. @Joe Stalin
    Interestingly, I've noticed that ABC nightly news has made a point of referring to the Puerto Ricans as "American citizens" in virtually every broadcast since the last hurricane. I presume this is to try to drum up anti-Trump feelings as in "Isn't MAGA also helping our American brethre?."

    But I totally agree; set them free and wash our hands of this century old colonial Spanish speaking relic.

    The food stamp savings alone makes this a worthwhile political endeavor.

    Interestingly, I’ve noticed that ABC nightly news has made a point of referring to the Puerto Ricans as “American citizens” in virtually every broadcast since the last hurricane. I presume this is to try to drum up anti-Trump feelings as in “Isn’t MAGA also helping our American brethre?.”

    Next time try mentioning to your friendly neighborhood SJW that US citizenship was only extended to PR in 1917–the year alone is a big clue as to why: Uncle Sam needed to embiggen the pool for conscription in a war that was a lot less popular than the government was willing to admit or be let known–the first few months the draft numbers weren’t looking good. Ask your interlocutor if he/she/it supports more cannon fodder for war.

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  163. @Andrew M
    Why are Northern Italian regionalists (Lega Lombarda–Lega Nord) very much not cool with the NYT?

    Because Africa starts at Rome. There's a noticeable racial gap between northern and southern Italians. The northerners look like white Europeans, the southerners are olive-skinned North Africans (think John Travolta or Sylvester Stallone).

    With all due respect, you are a fucking idiot.

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    • Replies: @Berty
    Pretty much everyone on iSteve who insists on opining about their expert knowledge of races based on looks and location are.
    , @Andrew M
    Hah, did I touch a raw nerve?

    The phrase "Africa begins at Rome" (or sometimes "Africa begins at Naples") is well-known. Southern Italian immigrants to the United States were widely discriminated against, right up until the second world war. This is a matter of historical record.
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  164. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Andrew
    "Surprised the neo-Confederates here don’t mention the secession votes in 1860-61."

    Self-determination is the sacred right of all free peoples.

    Freedom proceeds out of the barrel of a gun.

    Voting for secession is not enough to enforce independence and freedom. You have to fight for it against those who oppose it and would control you.

    This should be the lesson of almost every successful secessionist movement in history: Switzerland, Holland, America, Ireland, Abkhazia, Donbass.

    Why did the votes of the South not count in 1860-61? Because they failed to enforce their freedom and will.

    Or as Covington has his fictional Northwest American Republic hold as its motto, Ex Gladio Libertas

    His “gladio” more resembles the SS uniform dagger than a sword, a mere coincidence of course.

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  165. eah says:

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  166. @Cagey Beast
    .... the argument of the gun.

    Ultima Ratio Regum ("last argument of kings"):

    "The Last Resort of Kings and Common Men" referring to the act of declaring war; used in the names the French sniper rifle PGM Ultima Ratio .... Louis XIV of France had Ultima Ratio Regum ("last argument of kings") cast on the cannons of his armies; motto of the 1st Battalion 11th Marines ..."
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrases_(U)

    Thanks. That was the reference I was groping for.

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  167. Berty says:
    @Niccolo Salo
    With all due respect, you are a fucking idiot.

    Pretty much everyone on iSteve who insists on opining about their expert knowledge of races based on looks and location are.

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  168. @Pat Boyle
    Italian opera owes a lot to Catalan. Jose Carreras grew up in Barcelona and couldn't speak Spanish until his family was forced out of Spain and they moved to Mexico. Nor was he the only great Catalan tenor at that time. Giacomo Aragall was also Catalonian. Aragall was the best Cavaradossi I ever heard and that included Corelli, Pavarotti and many, many others.

    On the distaff side there was Monserrat Caballe - arguably the finest soprano in her fach on earth. I often laughed at her singing on records - it wasn't fair, no one could sing like that. I pitied every other soprano.

    If Catalonian independence means a continuation of their record of great singers - I'm enthusiastically for it.

    The British parliamentary system is highly winner take all. There is little in the way of checks and balances, especially because lower levels of government don’t have much in the way of rights. Margaret Thatcher didn’t like the mayor of London so she just abolished his job.

    The British system is optimized for quick action, while still making the government accountable. It’s kind of a pirate ship system.

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    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    We elect a dictator every few years and toss them overboard when the winds no longer favour them.
    , @Anonymous
    Power is vested in the hands of MPs - and ultimately in the hands of their constituency electors.
    The concept of 'party' is all important in British politics. In the Tory party, a revolt of MPs is sufficient to remove a sitting Prime Minister, the Labour Party does things differently with individual party members having an input.

    The key point to take home is that all policy decisions are dependent on obtaining a majority vote in parliament. Individual MPs supposedly vote in accordance with their consciences, not necessarily toeing the 'party line'.
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  169. @Nico
    One need not be a demon to be wrong, nor an angel to be correct. A good rule of thumb is that thnic irredentism and separatism is always bad unless it is a Christian people pulling away from Muslim overlords; it always divides resources and brings down trade empires. The objection to the E.U. is NOT that a project for European cooperation is bad but that as conceived the union does nothing but ram swarthy immigrants, burdensome regulations and untenable monetary dictates down its constituent countries' throats. The Eurocrats should be taking the side of the Catalan leaders, whose yuppy self-hating white-assed leaders will no doubt immediately petition to rejoin the EU as a separate, weaker pawn, but the union's nominal obligations to its member states prevents them from openly defying the Spanish government's position on internal affairs not related to Muslims, other brown people or homosexuals. Classic divide and conquer.

    Nico wrote to me:

    One need not be a demon to be wrong, nor an angel to be correct. A good rule of thumb is that thnic irredentism and separatism is always bad unless it is a Christian people pulling away from Muslim overlords; it always divides resources and brings down trade empires.

    Irredentism and separatism are, I think, rather different animals.

    Personally, I will go with the old-fashioned “principle of subsidiarity”: there ought to be a strong bias in favor of government that is closer to the people.

    Yes, I know that local government can sometimes be just as oppressive as centralized government: I am a Thoreauist anarchist — I trust no government, ever. But, if nothing else, it is easier to escape from low-level governments (i.e., move).

    And, a diversity of governments within a region allows for variety and experimentation — that was, after all, the historical experience of Europe, before the EU.

    (Anyone interested in the broader historical implications should read Robert Wesson’s The Imperial Order and State Systems: International Pluralism, Politics, and Culture: Professor Wesson convinced me.)

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    • Replies: @AM

    I am a Thoreauist anarchist — I trust no government, ever.
     
    One presumes that Mom is doing your laundry and baking your cookies and Granddad's hard work is supplying the money so you can navel gaze in a cabin in the woods?
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  170. Miro23 says:
    @Moshe
    Reading RoberTS's steve-elevated comment while on the go comes across as tmi for me to claim to really understand.

    One thing that he mentions clearly which I should have mentioned as well is the huge influx of mohammedians who are changing the nature of what it means to be a Barthelonian.

    Spain invited their Jews back too.

    My mother's father comes from the group of Spanish Jews who set up a community in Poland. They were darker rhan Ashkenazim but more or less assimilated. My grandfather even benefited from "ashkenazi privilege" and was starved and enslaved by the germans for 5 years while they murdered his wife and 2 small children. But anyway, he's of Spanish Jewish origin though I wonder whether I could sufficiently substantiate that.

    What I can tell you though is that this offer is bringing in very few new Jewish citizens.

    In fact most of the new Jewish citizens are from Latin America (and ashkenazi) but there's no real jewish community in spain since the 15th century and the new world jews are moving back out of spain.

    But anyway, of course most jews wouldn't be wards of the state while many moroccan muslims are.

    As for the Basques, they're diasporizing in gaggles and can be found in far points setting up basque-pride quarters out in Van Horn, Tx and with Peruvian sheep herders where nevada meets idaho.

    Of those who remain a plurality still speak the language at home and would like to both be a separate country and part of Spain. And if forced to starkly choose between the two they're roo comfortable and familiar with spain to have any clue how they would survive on their own.

    Of those who remain a plurality still speak the language at home and would like to both be a separate country and part of Spain. And if forced to starkly choose between the two they’re too comfortable and familiar with Spain to have any clue how they would survive on their own.

    Welcome to the Swiss Confederation.

    They have four different languages, a high degree a local autonomy (Cantons and Communes), weak Federal power, obligatory local participation in politics and mostly local taxation and spending.

    Also, mandatory military service for all male citizens. It’s an issue for some of them, so following the rules of Swiss Democracy, they held local debates (obligatory citizen participation) with a referendum in 2013 that gave conscription 73% support – so that was it.

    On the question of preserving national unity (many foreigners in Switzerland), each foreigner has a work contract with an entry and exit date (solidly enforced), with no question of Swiss citizenship. So, everyone knows their status and why they’re there.

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    • Replies: @Art
    Also, mandatory military service for all male citizens. It’s an issue for some of them, so following the rules of Swiss Democracy, they held local debates (obligatory citizen participation) with a referendum in 2013 that gave conscription 73% support – so that was it.

    Switzerland has the best government system on the planet.

    A weak central government – strong local government – everyone is armed - everyone must vote.

    They speak four different languages – but people identify with their local city – not their race or tribe.

    This is a powerful arrangement because the local community provides most of what is require to sustain life. In this way local people have voting power over their lives.

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  171. @Art
    The regional city state is in humanities future. The closer that government is to the people, the less dictatorial it becomes. Even though it is often corrupt - local government is always better.

    The nation state has outlived its usefulness. Nation state democracy is losing out to the power of bigness - big banks, big corporations, big military, big media, and big bureaucracy. “We the people” are given lip service. The nation state has become a “Deep State” – it is the source of geopolitical forces that disrespect the will of the masses. The average person is becoming a serf to the Deep State that masquerades as a democracy.

    The sovereignty of people is giving way to the sovereignty of the deep state government itself. The tail is wagging the dog.

    People demand and need an identity – we all want to belong to something – belonging to a “locality” is the safest, non-belligerent, stable, rational, natural identity available to human kind. The identity of religion, race, and sex is all sublimated to “locality.”

    Hail the regional city state.

    People demand and need an identity – we all want to belong to something – belonging to a “locality” is the safest, non-belligerent, stable, rational, natural identity available to human kind. The identity of religion, race, and sex is all sublimated to “locality.”

    Hail the regional city state.

    I get it: Regional city-states are the hip new Small is Beautiful. Make CA a sanctuary state!

    Where a person can find his or her non-belligerent, rational, natural identity, yes ma’am!

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  172. @Tsar Nicholas
    Media outlets are claiming 90% Yes vote and Catalan leader Puigdemont is saying that the Catalan parliament is going to delare indepenence on the basis of this vote.

    Except that in 2015 there were 5. 5 million registered voters in Catalonia, so it looks like three million or more didn't turn up. Not because they were lazy, but because this was an illegal vote.

    Tsar Nicholas wrote:

    Except that in 2015 there were 5. 5 million registered voters in Catalonia, so it looks like three million or more didn’t turn up. Not because they were lazy, but because this was an illegal vote.

    Or, just maybe, a lot of people did not show up because the police were shooting voters with rubber bullets?

    I do think the central government might well have won the vote had they not engaged in such violent thuggery.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    It was an illegal vote. Perhaps the government would not have to enforce the law if people did not attempt to continuously defy the law and actually petitioned for a normal political process. Stop supporting SJWs.
    , @Tsar Nicholas
    @Physicist Dave

    "Or, just maybe, a lot of people did not show up because the police were shooting voters with rubber bullets?"

    It's possible, but voting at other elections in Catalonia ( Madrid govt, Barcelona govt, local govt, EU Parliament) suggests this may not be the correct answer.

    Aside from this there are two other points:

    I can't find any reference to where the votes were counted, nor who counted them, nor who observed the counting. This may seem like an obscure and arcane point if you have electronic voting or have never been involved in the mechanics of an actual election, but I can assure you that it's absolutely vital.

    The validity of the referendums on Scottish independence and Brexit were never seriously quesioned partly because each side had observers present at a public counting event. But where were the Catalan votes counted? It is in the nature of things that an illegal vote has to be counted in a secretive and furtive manner, but then it's no better than a Soviet vote count.

    There is also to consider the fact that the Catalan government stated that a ballot paper could be downloaded, filled in and returned to any polling station in Catalonia. Even with saints and the best of technological safeguards, I can't for the life of me imagine that this would not be wide open to abuse.

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  173. jim jones says:

    The Paper of Record seems to have come down on the Catalan side:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4937860/Riot-police-clash-voters-Catalonia.html

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  174. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @PhysicistDave
    Tsar Nicholas wrote:

    Except that in 2015 there were 5. 5 million registered voters in Catalonia, so it looks like three million or more didn’t turn up. Not because they were lazy, but because this was an illegal vote.
     
    Or, just maybe, a lot of people did not show up because the police were shooting voters with rubber bullets?

    I do think the central government might well have won the vote had they not engaged in such violent thuggery.

    It was an illegal vote. Perhaps the government would not have to enforce the law if people did not attempt to continuously defy the law and actually petitioned for a normal political process. Stop supporting SJWs.

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    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Anonymous wrote to me:

    It was an illegal vote. Perhaps the government would not have to enforce the law if people did not attempt to continuously defy the law...
     
    Yeah, yeah, yeah, and the American Revolution was illegal, and the overthrow of the Soviet Union was illegal, and, for that matter, I suppose that the overthrow of the Nazi government was, technically, "illegal."

    Or maybe we could consider a novel idea? Like, say:


    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
     
    Note the Founders' words: "as to them shall seem most likely..." Not to you or to me but to them. It is the Catalans' country, and they may well make a mess out of it, but, seems to me, it is their affair.
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  175. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Charles Pewitt
    SPAIN IS HEADING FOR CIVIL WAR

    When government workers manhandle with extreme disregard citizens of about 60 years of age that pisses off the young men who support and love their people. The Madrid faction that sent the government workers to attack the Catalonians has lost all legitimacy.

    The bald guy in his sixties getting manhandled by the Madrid government workers is pissing me off and I am not even a Catalonian. Then right after the bald guy gets roughed up, the Madrid government workers attack a woman.

    Video of the Madrid government workers attacking Catalonian 60 year olds and women:

    https://twitter.com/DarrenMole/status/914535650472247297

    As one Turkish observer tweeted, ‘what would be the official EU reaction if this happened in Turkey?’.

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    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Anonymous wrote:

    As one Turkish observer tweeted, ‘what would be the official EU reaction if this happened in Turkey?’.
     
    We may soon find out. I.e., "Long live Greater Kurdistan!"
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  176. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @I, commenter
    I have to think the globalists are actually stirring this up - the EU is trying to break up the larger nation states so they can end the nation state- an 'independent' catalonia is entirely dependent on the the EU

    Yep.
    The buzzword a few years ago was ‘ a Europe of the regions’.

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  177. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Moshe
    Reading RoberTS's steve-elevated comment while on the go comes across as tmi for me to claim to really understand.

    One thing that he mentions clearly which I should have mentioned as well is the huge influx of mohammedians who are changing the nature of what it means to be a Barthelonian.

    Spain invited their Jews back too.

    My mother's father comes from the group of Spanish Jews who set up a community in Poland. They were darker rhan Ashkenazim but more or less assimilated. My grandfather even benefited from "ashkenazi privilege" and was starved and enslaved by the germans for 5 years while they murdered his wife and 2 small children. But anyway, he's of Spanish Jewish origin though I wonder whether I could sufficiently substantiate that.

    What I can tell you though is that this offer is bringing in very few new Jewish citizens.

    In fact most of the new Jewish citizens are from Latin America (and ashkenazi) but there's no real jewish community in spain since the 15th century and the new world jews are moving back out of spain.

    But anyway, of course most jews wouldn't be wards of the state while many moroccan muslims are.

    As for the Basques, they're diasporizing in gaggles and can be found in far points setting up basque-pride quarters out in Van Horn, Tx and with Peruvian sheep herders where nevada meets idaho.

    Of those who remain a plurality still speak the language at home and would like to both be a separate country and part of Spain. And if forced to starkly choose between the two they're roo comfortable and familiar with spain to have any clue how they would survive on their own.

    I wonder if the obviously dark-complexioned Ed Miliband (former British Labour Party leader) was descended from Sephardim settled in Poland?

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  178. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Apparently, EU member stated are ‘too shy’ to use ‘physical intimidation’ against obvious hostile, aggressive, alien invaders of EU lands, but show absolutely no restraint in smashing up non violent non aggressive EU citizens.

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    • Agree: Dan Hayes
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  179. secession is always good–smaller nations are more cohesive and unified and thus better able to control their politicians and fend off Big Business…any white dissident populist would know that…

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  180. @Seth Largo
    It's quite a bit more complicated. Many left-leaning Catalan artistes, including director Isabel Coixet, have come out against independence.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/22/catalonia-independence-referendum-isabel-coixet

    The secessionists yell "fascist!" at the anti-secessionists, but lefty artistes say that can't tell the difference between fascists and the nationalist orientations of the independence movement.

    I notice that both Canada and the UK permitted secessionist referendums to be held.

    They did not send in police to try and stop them.

    There really is a big gap between northern and southern European societies (I include Canada as northern because they were the first settlers).

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  181. M_Young says:

    “That’s my experience. I speak Spanish and can understand Catalan fairly easily.”

    And I used to watch interviews on Spanish TV with Italian soccer players or cyclists that the interviers didn’t even bother to translate back to Spanish. Yet no one doubts Italian is a language ( though one created fairly recently).

    Catalan didn’t develop out of modern or even medieval Spanish, the way, say, American midland English developed out of West Country English English. It was its own language before then.

    Let’s take a look at some basic words

    yellow — groga — amarillo
    red — vermell — roja
    blue — blau — azul
    to close — tancar — cerrar
    this — aixo — esto
    with — amb — con
    home — llar — hogar

    Yes, I picked words with major differences. But languages were so many basic words are different are, in fact, languages not dialects of each other.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    There is no bright line between a language and a dialect. But the most important Catalan dictionary is called el gran diccionari de la llengua catalana. In Spanish, this is el gran diccionario de la lengua catalana. So these are clearly closely related languages.
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  182. @PhysicistDave
    Tsar Nicholas wrote:

    Except that in 2015 there were 5. 5 million registered voters in Catalonia, so it looks like three million or more didn’t turn up. Not because they were lazy, but because this was an illegal vote.
     
    Or, just maybe, a lot of people did not show up because the police were shooting voters with rubber bullets?

    I do think the central government might well have won the vote had they not engaged in such violent thuggery.

    @Physicist Dave

    “Or, just maybe, a lot of people did not show up because the police were shooting voters with rubber bullets?”

    It’s possible, but voting at other elections in Catalonia ( Madrid govt, Barcelona govt, local govt, EU Parliament) suggests this may not be the correct answer.

    Aside from this there are two other points:

    I can’t find any reference to where the votes were counted, nor who counted them, nor who observed the counting. This may seem like an obscure and arcane point if you have electronic voting or have never been involved in the mechanics of an actual election, but I can assure you that it’s absolutely vital.

    The validity of the referendums on Scottish independence and Brexit were never seriously quesioned partly because each side had observers present at a public counting event. But where were the Catalan votes counted? It is in the nature of things that an illegal vote has to be counted in a secretive and furtive manner, but then it’s no better than a Soviet vote count.

    There is also to consider the fact that the Catalan government stated that a ballot paper could be downloaded, filled in and returned to any polling station in Catalonia. Even with saints and the best of technological safeguards, I can’t for the life of me imagine that this would not be wide open to abuse.

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    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Tsar Nicholas wrote to me:

    It’s possible [that police shootings suppressed voter turnout], but voting at other elections in Catalonia ( Madrid govt, Barcelona govt, local govt, EU Parliament) suggests this may not be the correct answer.
     
    Just possible??? Wouldn't you consider staying home given the arrests, the use of rubber bullets, etc.? Really? Hardly seems comparable to other elections!

    TN also wrote:

    I can’t find any reference to where the votes were counted, nor who counted them, nor who observed the counting. This may seem like an obscure and arcane point if you have electronic voting or have never been involved in the mechanics of an actual election, but I can assure you that it’s absolutely vital.
     
    Indeed. But, how could you conduct a well-certified election with the central government arresting people, destroying ballots en masse, and shooting people with rubber bullets?

    It was indeed a mess, but that was Madrid's choice. The central government blew it, bigtime.

    I have no idea if the Catalans will do a good job governing themselves. I wish them well.

    But, if Madrid wanted to hold on to the Catalans as loyal, beloved citizens, the central government had an awfully funny way of showing it!
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  183. Moshe says:
    @Jack D
    I was glad to see an iSteve post that didn't have an (anti) Jewish angle to it but I see now that EVERYTHING (even Catalonian independence) can be made to have a Jewish angle to it, despite the fact that there are essentially no Jews in Catalonia.

    Look man, it’s Jews all the way down…

    Hate us or Love us they’re absolutely fascinated by us.

    It’s like how blacks are obsessed with whites.

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  184. @Charles Pewitt
    Catalan government workers are now squaring off against the Madrid government workers. A group of Catalan firefighters has displayed tremendous courage and bravery to protect their people. These great firefighters have an instinct to protect and defend -- from fire, trauma or tyranny!

    I have been waiting for the split between government workers for years in the United States. And not just leprechaun cops and firefighters in Boston or New York brawling, they do that for fun. I am talking about government workers refusing to be evil scum that do the bidding of vile plutocrats and tyrants!

    Watch this small spark of defiance grow in strength. Watch how the Catalan firefighters made a wall of patriotism to face down the zombie Madrid government workers. This is great stuff:

    https://twitter.com/Butterfly_Reb/status/914539919246348288

    It is stirring. But the fact that the crowd chant ‘no paseran’ shows how much Catalan nationalism is bound up with a romantic view of their historic left-wing resistance to fascism and Spanish nationalism.

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    • Replies: @AP
    But what was the driving focus? I suspect that national liberation came first and ideology was secondary to that. he enemy of Catalonia's independence was an authoritarian conservative government, so the Catalans went leftist. If Madrid was leftist/communist, perhaps the Catalans would have gone right-wing. Were the anti-colonial Vietnamese leftists first, or Vietnamese nationalists first, who had to be leftists because their enemies were western democratic states during the cold war? Western Ukraine had a national liberationist movement in the 1930s and 1940s. Its enemies were Poland, an ally of western democracy France, and the USSR. So the Ukrainian movement was far-right fascist in nature. But when, after the mid 1940s, the enemy was strictly the USSR, it suddenly became democratic/pro-western. When considering these national liberation movements, ultimately left-right is rather secondary.
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  185. @Anonymous
    It was an illegal vote. Perhaps the government would not have to enforce the law if people did not attempt to continuously defy the law and actually petitioned for a normal political process. Stop supporting SJWs.

    Anonymous wrote to me:

    It was an illegal vote. Perhaps the government would not have to enforce the law if people did not attempt to continuously defy the law…

    Yeah, yeah, yeah, and the American Revolution was illegal, and the overthrow of the Soviet Union was illegal, and, for that matter, I suppose that the overthrow of the Nazi government was, technically, “illegal.”

    Or maybe we could consider a novel idea? Like, say:

    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

    Note the Founders’ words: “as to them shall seem most likely…” Not to you or to me but to them. It is the Catalans’ country, and they may well make a mess out of it, but, seems to me, it is their affair.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    By your logic, why don't we just let CA secede and permanently ruin the security of the United States? There are some things which are law for a reason. Likewise, the Civil War which maintained the Union.
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  186. Moshe says:
    @Tom-in-VA
    Meanwhile, in Madrid, anti-separatist demonstrators sing the Franco-era anthem. I'm surprised at the number of young people participating.

    https://youtu.be/7A92B6ps-Vk

    Thanks!

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  187. @Tsar Nicholas
    @Physicist Dave

    "Or, just maybe, a lot of people did not show up because the police were shooting voters with rubber bullets?"

    It's possible, but voting at other elections in Catalonia ( Madrid govt, Barcelona govt, local govt, EU Parliament) suggests this may not be the correct answer.

    Aside from this there are two other points:

    I can't find any reference to where the votes were counted, nor who counted them, nor who observed the counting. This may seem like an obscure and arcane point if you have electronic voting or have never been involved in the mechanics of an actual election, but I can assure you that it's absolutely vital.

    The validity of the referendums on Scottish independence and Brexit were never seriously quesioned partly because each side had observers present at a public counting event. But where were the Catalan votes counted? It is in the nature of things that an illegal vote has to be counted in a secretive and furtive manner, but then it's no better than a Soviet vote count.

    There is also to consider the fact that the Catalan government stated that a ballot paper could be downloaded, filled in and returned to any polling station in Catalonia. Even with saints and the best of technological safeguards, I can't for the life of me imagine that this would not be wide open to abuse.

    Tsar Nicholas wrote to me:

    It’s possible [that police shootings suppressed voter turnout], but voting at other elections in Catalonia ( Madrid govt, Barcelona govt, local govt, EU Parliament) suggests this may not be the correct answer.

    Just possible??? Wouldn’t you consider staying home given the arrests, the use of rubber bullets, etc.? Really? Hardly seems comparable to other elections!

    TN also wrote:

    I can’t find any reference to where the votes were counted, nor who counted them, nor who observed the counting. This may seem like an obscure and arcane point if you have electronic voting or have never been involved in the mechanics of an actual election, but I can assure you that it’s absolutely vital.

    Indeed. But, how could you conduct a well-certified election with the central government arresting people, destroying ballots en masse, and shooting people with rubber bullets?

    It was indeed a mess, but that was Madrid’s choice. The central government blew it, bigtime.

    I have no idea if the Catalans will do a good job governing themselves. I wish them well.

    But, if Madrid wanted to hold on to the Catalans as loyal, beloved citizens, the central government had an awfully funny way of showing it!

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    • Replies: @Tsar Nicholas
    @Physcist Dave

    The referendum was declared illegal by the courts under the Spanish Constitution. It was also illegal under the Catalan parliament's own rules which required 90 votes for this to pass, but the measure only garnered 72.

    The point that you missed in my previous post was that all the voting data from all the many elections held in Catalonia in recent years suggests no majority for outright independence. Indeed, most identify with Spain and are happy with the current arrangements whereby Catalonia is a largely self-governing autonomous region.

    I therefore think that you are profoundly in error by characterisng Catalans as cowed victims of a totalitarian regime. It is far more consistent with the evidence to posit that Catalans stayed at home because they didn't identify with the efforts of a troublemaker like Carles Puidgemont to spark off Spanish Civil War II. The same kind of reaction, in other words, as you would have got if Nicola Sturgeon had carried out her empty threat to run an Indyref 2 without sanction of the Westminster Parliament.

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  188. @Anonymous
    As one Turkish observer tweeted, 'what would be the official EU reaction if this happened in Turkey?'.

    Anonymous wrote:

    As one Turkish observer tweeted, ‘what would be the official EU reaction if this happened in Turkey?’.

    We may soon find out. I.e., “Long live Greater Kurdistan!”

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  189. Nico says:
    @3g4me
    So 55 comments and barely a handful even address, parenthetically, Steve's posted questions: "Should the rest of the union get a veto? Perhaps the part of the polity being seceded from should need a majority to approve the secession?"

    Vox Day has had a number of posts about Catalonia and each has a long comment thread where various Spaniard and Catalonians have debated their respective opinions. It's all rather messy and complicated as such ethnic affairs tend to be. My take from all my reading is that the current Catalonian politicians are rather sleazy opportunists, although there is a significant portion of the population that wants independence. Spanish opponents always cite the illegality of the whole procedure, as well as the issue of all the Mohammedans in Catalonia. Ultimately, however, as Vox notes, "the law" does not actually exist in any material sense. It is merely a collective agreement, which ceases to exist when a sufficient number of people unilaterally withdraw from it." Add to this his related point that, even if the people or leaders are stupid or venal, the entire issue resolves down to whether Europe's trumpeted "democracy" and peoples' "right to self-determination" is real or merely a sham.

    Using force of arms to compel people to stay when they want to go is a loss and wrong on the moral and political level. Of course the question of the dissenters always arises, for example if Texas were every to secede (I highly doubt it) San Antonio (almost entirely Mestizo), Houston (75% Mestizo, Negro, and Asian), and Austin (almost no native White Texans and heavily Jewish run) would be vehemently opposed.

    This is yet another example of the tragedy of mass population mixing. Most people prefer to live amongst their own - only certain groups will always prefer the stability and economic success others produce and yet constantly agitate for more of their own people and customs. I propose, in all seriousness, that we are far past the point when the mass reorganization of people must be undertaken, a la India and Pakistan's split. Let the Austinites return to New York, the San Antonians to Mexico and those resident in Catalonia who oppose independence move to Spain proper. Everything is going to fall out that way sooner or later, but perhaps rationally considering the best way to do so now could mitigate at least some of the violence and death that are coming regardless of Americans' normalcy bias.

    Using force of arms to compel people to stay when they want to go is a loss and wrong on the moral and political level.

    I disagree. While the Vox author is certainly correct in that the maintaining the rule of law necessarily entails a large-scale psychological submission, which when it breaks down can make the rule of law difficult or impossible to restore, this is merely a situational descriptive. Children have no right, for example, to “secede” from their parents, and even as adults they can be disinherited for behavior which is disrespectful towards their parents or otherwise socially reprehensible. The parents’ legal margin of manœuvre on this last point does of course vary greatly from time to time and from place to place, and societal conventions impose differing dictates as to what sort of reprehensible conduct would provide a legitimate pretext for deletion from a will; most everyone would agree, however, that in principle children should not expect lavish enrichment on their parents death if they constantly dishonored said parents in life.

    This of course is the key: in quite a few modern separatist movements the separatists wanted to have their cake AND eat it, too: Quebec might have been reluctant to join NATO at first but being surrounded by the bloc would certainly have benefitted de facto from its protection; Scotland wanted to continue to use the sterling and immediately join the E.U.; and so on. Even if we regard their constituent peoples as adults and not minor children with respect to their sovereigns as per the preceding analogy (and for me that is a stretch) I see no moral or political imperative to humor such attitudes except when it is convenient for Machiavellian purposes. Then again, I am more sympathetic to Filmer than to Locke.

    The difference here of course is the cognitive dissonance, that the European Union shills never stop singing the praises of Lockean democracy and in particular using the concept as the flimsiest pretext to justify the oppression of white gentile Europeans in favor of brown and/or Saracen invaders. And on that point I am in full agreement that whatever the headache to us all of the current Catalonian crisis, the momentary middle finger shoved up the Eurocrats’is indeed some consolation.

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    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Nico wrote:

    Children have no right, for example, to “secede” from their parents...
     
    Well... as a practical matter, yes, they do: it's called "running away from home." You never knew any kid who did that? Neither you nor any of your sibs did that? Then you are pretty unusual. Of course, in most cases, an hour or so is long enough for the kid to figure out that it is the kid, not the parents, who have the good deal -- i.e., the kid usually chooses to go back home.

    Nico also wrote:


    most everyone would agree, however, that in principle children should not expect lavish enrichment on their parents death if they constantly dishonored said parents in life.
     
    You undercut your own case: what you are describing is the obvious fact that parents do have the right to separate from their adult children.

    Nico also wrote:


    Quebec might have been reluctant to join NATO at first but being surrounded by the bloc would certainly have benefitted de facto from its protection...
     
    Why on earth would Quebeckers want to remain part of the NATO boondoggle? Because the USSR was going to invade up the St. Lawrence???

    Nico also wrote:


    Even if we regard their constituent peoples as adults and not minor children with respect to their sovereigns as per the preceding analogy (and for me that is a stretch)
     
    It is a "stretch" for you to view adult human beings as adults??

    Then I hope, Nico, that you are living in an appropriate institution and not allowed to freely walk the streets.

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  190. Moshe says:
    @Andrew
    @Steve Sailer

    "Romance languages tended to emerge out of imperial Latin"

    This is exactly backwards. Latin was never a universal language in the Empire spoken by the majority rustic population in rural areas. The only area it would predominate was in the new Roman towns and military encampments (often these were the same thing).

    Rather, the rustic peasant tongues were in the main slowly creolized by Romanization and out of the Romanization of each underlying peasant language came the local Romance language or dialect.

    The Gallic languages of Gaul and Iberia, northern Italy, and Croatia were rather closer to Latin than is generally credited, and French, Occitan, Catalonian, Castilian, Galician, Portugese, Romansch, Lombardese, Venetian, Arumanian, and Dalmatian are the result.

    The Castilian-Catalonian divide goes back very far in time, just like the Franco-Occitan divide, and is the difference between the Gallo-Basque native population in northern/western Iberia and the Greco-Med population in southern/eastern Iberia. It was already present in pre-Roman times in Spain.

    https://www.quora.com/How-distinct-were-Iberian-tribes-living-in-Spain-and-Portugal-before-Roman-conquest

    The same mistake is made in thinking that all Indo-European tongues go back to a single original language spoken by all, instead of realizing that Indo-European steppe invaders caused the creolization of the existing local languages into Indo-Europeanized tongues, and that the pre-existing gross difference between the major groups - German, Romance, Slavic, Gallic, Iranian, Indian, Illyrian, Greek, Anatolian, Armenian, etc. goes back to underlying ethnic distinctions in population existing before the invasions.

    Indio-Europian is hard to discuss for anyone but brilliant linguists.

    The division of Latin into Spanish and Portuguese however is something we can discuss.

    What evidence do you have for your rather large claim that Latin only gave a spice to the local dialect rather than, if anything, the other way around.

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  191. JRB says: • Website
    @anonymous
    Speaking of Italy and apropos of nothing much, really, it is interesting to note that in the northeastern part of Italy near the border with Austria there are pockets where both the Italian and German languages co-exist, this area having been taken by Italy from defeated Austria-Hungary after The Great War. You never hear any complaints from these people about cultural and/or linguistic oppression, probably because it doesn't exist. As to Catalonia, I have no "gos" (Catalan for "dog") in this fight.

    Maybe you should read this wikipedia article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Tyrolean_secessionist_movement )

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  192. @Opinionator
    Holy shit Steve Sailer is amazing.

    Holy shit Steve Sailer is amazing.

    You would be too, if you could shoot 70 at Augusta National.

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  193. Moshe says:
    @Heros
    Thank you Brabantian, I knew that the cabal was somehow at the center of this but I was lacking this information.

    I will also tie this in to a recent change in Spanish law that allows any Jew, who claims Spanish ancestry or some other link, to claim Spanish Citizenship. They don't even have to speak Spanish.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/11/spain-law-citizenship-jews

    "to atone for its past harsh treatment of Jews"

    This could also tie into Gibraltar, which is basically a Jewish money laundering colony. There are about a half-dozen synagogue s there.

    http://haruth.com/jw/JewsGibraltar.html

    If Gibraltar breaks off from England, it could also become physically or just practically a part of Israel. But that is not enough, so to me the real question how is the breakup of Spain good for the Jews? Or are the Jews starting to fear the break up of Israel?

    Their coming to take him away…

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  194. Andrew M says:
    @Niccolo Salo
    With all due respect, you are a fucking idiot.

    Hah, did I touch a raw nerve?

    The phrase “Africa begins at Rome” (or sometimes “Africa begins at Naples”) is well-known. Southern Italian immigrants to the United States were widely discriminated against, right up until the second world war. This is a matter of historical record.

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  195. @Nico

    Using force of arms to compel people to stay when they want to go is a loss and wrong on the moral and political level.
     
    I disagree. While the Vox author is certainly correct in that the maintaining the rule of law necessarily entails a large-scale psychological submission, which when it breaks down can make the rule of law difficult or impossible to restore, this is merely a situational descriptive. Children have no right, for example, to "secede" from their parents, and even as adults they can be disinherited for behavior which is disrespectful towards their parents or otherwise socially reprehensible. The parents' legal margin of manœuvre on this last point does of course vary greatly from time to time and from place to place, and societal conventions impose differing dictates as to what sort of reprehensible conduct would provide a legitimate pretext for deletion from a will; most everyone would agree, however, that in principle children should not expect lavish enrichment on their parents death if they constantly dishonored said parents in life.

    This of course is the key: in quite a few modern separatist movements the separatists wanted to have their cake AND eat it, too: Quebec might have been reluctant to join NATO at first but being surrounded by the bloc would certainly have benefitted de facto from its protection; Scotland wanted to continue to use the sterling and immediately join the E.U.; and so on. Even if we regard their constituent peoples as adults and not minor children with respect to their sovereigns as per the preceding analogy (and for me that is a stretch) I see no moral or political imperative to humor such attitudes except when it is convenient for Machiavellian purposes. Then again, I am more sympathetic to Filmer than to Locke.

    The difference here of course is the cognitive dissonance, that the European Union shills never stop singing the praises of Lockean democracy and in particular using the concept as the flimsiest pretext to justify the oppression of white gentile Europeans in favor of brown and/or Saracen invaders. And on that point I am in full agreement that whatever the headache to us all of the current Catalonian crisis, the momentary middle finger shoved up the Eurocrats'is indeed some consolation.

    Nico wrote:

    Children have no right, for example, to “secede” from their parents…

    Well… as a practical matter, yes, they do: it’s called “running away from home.” You never knew any kid who did that? Neither you nor any of your sibs did that? Then you are pretty unusual. Of course, in most cases, an hour or so is long enough for the kid to figure out that it is the kid, not the parents, who have the good deal — i.e., the kid usually chooses to go back home.

    Nico also wrote:

    most everyone would agree, however, that in principle children should not expect lavish enrichment on their parents death if they constantly dishonored said parents in life.

    You undercut your own case: what you are describing is the obvious fact that parents do have the right to separate from their adult children.

    Nico also wrote:

    Quebec might have been reluctant to join NATO at first but being surrounded by the bloc would certainly have benefitted de facto from its protection…

    Why on earth would Quebeckers want to remain part of the NATO boondoggle? Because the USSR was going to invade up the St. Lawrence???

    Nico also wrote:

    Even if we regard their constituent peoples as adults and not minor children with respect to their sovereigns as per the preceding analogy (and for me that is a stretch)

    It is a “stretch” for you to view adult human beings as adults??

    Then I hope, Nico, that you are living in an appropriate institution and not allowed to freely walk the streets.

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    • Troll: Nico
    • Replies: @AM

    Why on earth would Quebeckers want to remain part of the NATO boondoggle? Because the USSR was going to invade up the St. Lawrence???
     
    The USSR was not going to invade the St. Lawrence because they would be surrounded by Canada, who was a part of NATO. Thus all those *sniff* anglophones would defacto provide them with protection and they could take the seeming moral high ground, which she said.

    This is Thoreau's philosophy at it's finest. Why should I work? Someone else has done all the heavy lifting for me.

    It is a “stretch” for you to view adult human beings as adults??
     
    There are plenty of "adult" teenagers, now especially in the West. Your posts are perfect examples of "Look at my superior morals and attitudes" with no willingness to do any hard work.

    It ends badly, as it has always. But there's nothing to be done but try to soften the fall.
    , @Nico
    So much disingenuity in your posts if you hadn't organized them for me along the various bites of my blurbs you're replying to I wouldn't even know where to begin.

    Well… as a practical matter, yes, they do: it’s called “running away from home.” You never knew any kid who did that? Neither you nor any of your sibs did that? Then you are pretty unusual. Of course, in most cases, an hour or so is long enough for the kid to figure out that it is the kid, not the parents, who have the good deal — i.e., the kid usually chooses to go back home.
     
    That's one heck of a load of obfuscation, equivocation and misapprehension.

    A child "running away from home" in a not-uncommon fit of juvenile outrage at the limitations imposed by their parents' custodianship is not "seceding" from the family in any manner which would be de facto or de jure recognized by any sane adult (though our magistrates in the West are increasingly less and less sane, to the point where one does wonder, as did Barbara Olson, when children will get the right to sue their parents over taking out the trash). If by some chance such children do not return on their own initiative, then if and when they are discovered by competent authorities they will in normal circumstances be returned to their parents, regardless of whether they ask to be returned. You might as well say that there is a "right" to steal because some people happen to do so. No, minor children have NO right to secede from their families on their own volition, and court-ordered seizure or emancipation is (for the time being) the exception, not the rule.

    You undercut your own case: what you are describing is the obvious fact that parents do have the right to separate from their adult children.
     
    It doesn't undercut anything. In the analogy I provided, the parents are likened to the sovereign (in this case, the Spanish crown and the state which is coterminous with the crown) and the children to the subjects. My point was that even children who are able (only after the attainment of the majority, NDLR) to refuse to honor their parents do not necessarily escape without punishment. Furthermore, just as parents do not need to cut off a part of their *material* estate to send rebellious children on their way, I see no obligation for a sovereign to allow disrespectful subjects (in this case, Catalan independentists) to take part of his land with them. (Traditionally rebellion was punished by exile or death.)

    Moreover, there are often legal limits to the extent to and circumstances in which parents may disinherit children, and in some countries individuals have a statutory duty to feed and shelter their major ascendants and descendants in times of need.

    Why on earth would Quebeckers want to remain part of the NATO boondoggle? Because the USSR was going to invade up the St. Lawrence???
     
    See AM's point on herd immunity. Another threat would be the risk of land-grabbers from surrounding Canadian provinces deciding to encroach on Québécois territory if the restraints imposed by the centralized defense arrangement in North America. Either way, Québec would benefit from the deterrent afforded by living next to powerful neighbors without pouring much in on its own, as is currently the case for all of Canada with respect to the U.S. (see War Plan Crimson).

    It is a “stretch” for you to view adult human beings as adults??
     
    You are equivocating back and forth between analogies and literal categories. It is a stretch for me to consider the analogy of parents/adult children to the Spanish crown/Catalan subjects as more befitting than the analogy of parents/minor children. Yes, putting aside for a moment the conduct of the Spanish government and national police force, I consider the present political behavior of the Catalan separatists to be immature and ill-brained.

    I hope, Nico, that you are living in an appropriate institution and not allowed to freely walk the streets.
     
    If you really are that afraid, then just remember that nobody can force you, as an adult, to leave the safety of your home for the wild jungle of the streets.

    One more:

    Productive people tend to be Lockeans. Filmerite = parasite.
     
    If saying so could make it so, Caitlyn Jenner would have a penis and I would be the King of France.
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  196. LondonBob says:
    @Jake
    "again, the tragedy of the Spanish Right alienating potential allies through its French-originating centralism."

    That is true not just of the world of Spain. It is true of the UK and any other empire that rules over peoples of different languages and regional dialects and significantly different folkways. The English Right became the most self-righteous bulldozer of various British Isles local cultures imaginable. The English Right intended to force all those peoples into the mold of what the English saw as conserving Englishness, meaning what the nobility and the super rich of London and the southeast of England wanted.

    And that guaranteed that the culturally and religiously conservative peoples of other parts of the British Isles, parts of England almost as much as in Celtic lands, tended to vote Left in defense of their local cultures against the imperially crushing and grinding English Right.

    Imperialist violence, against folkways and economies as much as against bodies, always breeds blowback that supports political, economic, and then cultural and moral Liberalism.

    British imperialism was largely a Scots affair, deeply conservative English nationalism has been treated as a grave threat. Once the English colonies were lost we went from the English empire to the British empire.

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  197. @Steve Sailer
    The British parliamentary system is highly winner take all. There is little in the way of checks and balances, especially because lower levels of government don't have much in the way of rights. Margaret Thatcher didn't like the mayor of London so she just abolished his job.

    The British system is optimized for quick action, while still making the government accountable. It's kind of a pirate ship system.

    We elect a dictator every few years and toss them overboard when the winds no longer favour them.

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  198. Jack D says:
    @M_Young
    "That’s my experience. I speak Spanish and can understand Catalan fairly easily."

    And I used to watch interviews on Spanish TV with Italian soccer players or cyclists that the interviers didn't even bother to translate back to Spanish. Yet no one doubts Italian is a language ( though one created fairly recently).

    Catalan didn't develop out of modern or even medieval Spanish, the way, say, American midland English developed out of West Country English English. It was its own language before then.

    Let's take a look at some basic words

    yellow -- groga -- amarillo
    red -- vermell -- roja
    blue -- blau -- azul
    to close -- tancar -- cerrar
    this -- aixo -- esto
    with -- amb -- con
    home -- llar -- hogar

    Yes, I picked words with major differences. But languages were so many basic words are different are, in fact, languages not dialects of each other.

    There is no bright line between a language and a dialect. But the most important Catalan dictionary is called el gran diccionari de la llengua catalana. In Spanish, this is el gran diccionario de la lengua catalana. So these are clearly closely related languages.

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    • Replies: @BB753
    Most Romance languages scholars group Catalan within the Ibero-Romanic sub-group, along with Castilian, Portuguese, and the extinct Leonese, Asturian, Navarrese and Aragonese languages or dialects, these last two being very close to Catalan. Provencal did indeed influence Catalan vocabulary, but nevertheless the language remained much closer to other Iberian languages. Whether Valencian and Mallorcan are Catalan dialects is a matter of pointless dispute.
    As for the intelligibility of Catalan to a Spanish speaker, it only takes a couple of months of informal study before you pretty much understand the written and spoken language. Speaking Catalan is a different matter, but it's not a big deal.
    Basque, of course, is totally unrelated to Latin-derived languages, and to the Indo-European language group. It's about as difficult to learn as Japanese, except for the script, thankfully! It remains a minority language even in the Basque Country to this day, and was never spoken in the Southern half of Navarre. Though it seemed to be spoken 2k years ago as far North as Aquitania/ Aquitaine in modern France, just South of Bordeaux! In Medieval times, Romance Navarrese enjoyed official status in the Kingdom of Navarre.
    Under Moorish rule, a form of Romance was spoken by the majority Christian population in the South. Judging by the bits and pieces of the language left, we can tell it was closer to Southern Portuguese, and likely influenced modern Southern Castilian dialects such as Andalusian.
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  199. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @PhysicistDave
    Anonymous wrote to me:

    It was an illegal vote. Perhaps the government would not have to enforce the law if people did not attempt to continuously defy the law...
     
    Yeah, yeah, yeah, and the American Revolution was illegal, and the overthrow of the Soviet Union was illegal, and, for that matter, I suppose that the overthrow of the Nazi government was, technically, "illegal."

    Or maybe we could consider a novel idea? Like, say:


    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
     
    Note the Founders' words: "as to them shall seem most likely..." Not to you or to me but to them. It is the Catalans' country, and they may well make a mess out of it, but, seems to me, it is their affair.

    By your logic, why don’t we just let CA secede and permanently ruin the security of the United States? There are some things which are law for a reason. Likewise, the Civil War which maintained the Union.

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    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Anonymous wrote to me:

    By your logic, why don’t we just let CA secede and permanently ruin the security of the United States?
     
    Oh, I plan on voting for CA secession -- trust me, the Union will be better off without us.

    Anonymous also wrote:

    There are some things which are law for a reason. Likewise, the Civil War which maintained the Union.
     
    There was no "law" that the Southern states broke in seceding: Lincoln just decided he wanted to hold on to his power (and revenues).

    My personal sympathies are with those abolitionists who wanted to expel the slaveholding states from the Union. But, no matter how you cut it, over 600,000 dead in the Civil War was not an optimal solution -- let's hope the Spanish and Catalans are wiser than Lincoln and Jeff Davis.
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  200. AM says:
    @Anonymous
    As a person of color and a Trump supporter:

    A small difference is that Trump doesn't hate us, while the Alt-right arguably does. Trump would actually speak positively of colored Americans, the Alt-Right has made their desires clear. So, that's that.

    You can't expect us to actively hate ourselves, yes? you don't want to do that either

    A small difference is that Trump doesn’t hate us, while the Alt-right arguably does.

    The alt-right are a lot of different people right now. This blog and my thoughts would count as the alt-right, if you asked anyone at the National Review or “mainstream” conservatives. (I get kicked off the National Review as a Disqus commenter for suggesting that HBD might have something to it.) What’s holding the alt-right together is a willingness to have an honest discussion about races and the relationships between different groups of people. It’s a chaotic place – lots of people who would never normally be talking to each other are being grouped together.

    Yeah, there are the haters, although quite honestly it’s better to know where you stand with people. It saves time and shortens the list of potential good friends, although they may prove still to be helpful in some situations.

    But I think your sensible response highlights my point. You are not going to stand in a crowd of Nazi LARPers and I don’t blame you one bit. You might stand with the same people if they and you are working, in that moment, for the same goal and have joined you in an expression of that joint goal. So they ditch the Nazi gear and you both don a T-shirt or hat and save the statues.

    Right now too much of the alt-right (although I think it’s getting better) wants it’s libertarian cake and eat it too. Richard Spencer has some valid points about the coming status of white people as minorities in their own nations, but he’s not going to unite anyone with leftist ideals of “rainbowism”. Making Nazis Victims and People too (TM), especially after so many white Americans died fighting them is the ultimate lost cause. If the alt-right is going to achieve anything*, it needs to stop trying to compete in the victim Olympics.

    *I’m hoping they do because if they don’t I worry about violence – this can end very poorly for everyone and especially the American black community.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous

    So they ditch the Nazi gear and you both don a T-shirt or hat and save the statues.
     
    But who's going to make them ditch the nazi gear? Its not really like the Alt-Right has a leader. There are times when Spencer sounds moderate compared to his followers. You have White Nationalists like Bill Roper who want to kill Spencer for not being extreme enough and everyone more or less bashes the Alt-Light for being "cucks." In a world of extremist virtue signaling, its akin to Muslim virtue signaling - the most extreme people get the most virtue points.

    There's no King to rein in the people, its just a lot of angry guys running together sometimes in the same direction while screaming against the dying of the light. One can only hope that they might do some good, but I'll still have to be worried about my personal safety and that of my family if they won in any substantial way.

    Wish it was different, but it really feels this way. The closest thing to hope for is that Trump can both utilize them and moderate them, so that "based" minorities like myself could also support him. But its hard to try to talk reasonably to people who hate your guts for existing near them, or for wanting to not be kicked out of my home or job for being born a different race.

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  201. AM says:
    @PhysicistDave
    Nico wrote to me:

    One need not be a demon to be wrong, nor an angel to be correct. A good rule of thumb is that thnic irredentism and separatism is always bad unless it is a Christian people pulling away from Muslim overlords; it always divides resources and brings down trade empires.
     
    Irredentism and separatism are, I think, rather different animals.

    Personally, I will go with the old-fashioned "principle of subsidiarity": there ought to be a strong bias in favor of government that is closer to the people.

    Yes, I know that local government can sometimes be just as oppressive as centralized government: I am a Thoreauist anarchist -- I trust no government, ever. But, if nothing else, it is easier to escape from low-level governments (i.e., move).

    And, a diversity of governments within a region allows for variety and experimentation -- that was, after all, the historical experience of Europe, before the EU.

    (Anyone interested in the broader historical implications should read Robert Wesson's The Imperial Order and State Systems: International Pluralism, Politics, and Culture: Professor Wesson convinced me.)

    I am a Thoreauist anarchist — I trust no government, ever.

    One presumes that Mom is doing your laundry and baking your cookies and Granddad’s hard work is supplying the money so you can navel gaze in a cabin in the woods?

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  202. AM says:
    @PhysicistDave
    Nico wrote:

    Children have no right, for example, to “secede” from their parents...
     
    Well... as a practical matter, yes, they do: it's called "running away from home." You never knew any kid who did that? Neither you nor any of your sibs did that? Then you are pretty unusual. Of course, in most cases, an hour or so is long enough for the kid to figure out that it is the kid, not the parents, who have the good deal -- i.e., the kid usually chooses to go back home.

    Nico also wrote:


    most everyone would agree, however, that in principle children should not expect lavish enrichment on their parents death if they constantly dishonored said parents in life.
     
    You undercut your own case: what you are describing is the obvious fact that parents do have the right to separate from their adult children.

    Nico also wrote:


    Quebec might have been reluctant to join NATO at first but being surrounded by the bloc would certainly have benefitted de facto from its protection...
     
    Why on earth would Quebeckers want to remain part of the NATO boondoggle? Because the USSR was going to invade up the St. Lawrence???

    Nico also wrote:


    Even if we regard their constituent peoples as adults and not minor children with respect to their sovereigns as per the preceding analogy (and for me that is a stretch)
     
    It is a "stretch" for you to view adult human beings as adults??

    Then I hope, Nico, that you are living in an appropriate institution and not allowed to freely walk the streets.

    Why on earth would Quebeckers want to remain part of the NATO boondoggle? Because the USSR was going to invade up the St. Lawrence???

    The USSR was not going to invade the St. Lawrence because they would be surrounded by Canada, who was a part of NATO. Thus all those *sniff* anglophones would defacto provide them with protection and they could take the seeming moral high ground, which she said.

    This is Thoreau’s philosophy at it’s finest. Why should I work? Someone else has done all the heavy lifting for me.

    It is a “stretch” for you to view adult human beings as adults??

    There are plenty of “adult” teenagers, now especially in the West. Your posts are perfect examples of “Look at my superior morals and attitudes” with no willingness to do any hard work.

    It ends badly, as it has always. But there’s nothing to be done but try to soften the fall.

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    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    AM wrote to me:

    There are plenty of “adult” teenagers, now especially in the West.
     
    Indeed -- after all, you yourself are Exhibit A!

    Seriously, you contrasted ordinary people as children vis a vis their "sovereigns" ("minor children with respect to their sovereigns"), which really does show a certain peculiar kind of mental blindness. Surely, among the least mature people in almost any society are those who wield arbitrary power over their fellow adult citizens.

    AM also wrote:

    This is Thoreau’s philosophy at it’s finest. Why should I work? Someone else has done all the heavy lifting for me.
     
    Well, as far as I can see, Thoreau was a country boy who was able to take care of himself: he enjoyed living alone in the woods, just outside town, and he made a living via writing and manual skills, making pencils, in particular: he even invented a machine for making higher quality graphite for pencils.

    No welfare state back in Henry's time! It is the people such as yourself who think the "sovereigns" are more mature than the productive members of society who bear the responsibility for the corrupt society we live in today.

    Man up, AM! Take responsibility for what you toadies to "sovereigns" have created. There is a reason that the people who built this country were Lockeans, not Filmerites like you. Toadies to the "sovereigns" like you are the problem. The ordinary people you despise are the solution.

    Productive people tend to be Lockeans. Filmerite = parasite.
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  203. BB753 says:
    @M_Young
    "Catalan is a dialect of Spanish with some French mixed in."

    No, it's not. Anymore than English is a dialect of Low German or even Friesian with "some French mixed in".

    The commentator who wrote that this is SJW nationalism is correct. It certainly has zero to do with anti-immigration...the Catalans are quite aware that Latina American ('sudaca' to use the derogatory term) immigrants don't learn Catalan, and Moroccan and other immigrants prefer to learn Spanish (a world language) before Catalan. But they don't seem to care, at least the ones now pushing independence don't. In fact, following so closely on the major attacks on Barcelona, this seems like a diversion of natural, justified 'hate' towards the Spanish state.

    At any rate, the Catalan language is as well protected legally in Catalunya (SJW spelling) as French is in Quebec.

    Catalonia has an interesting California connection. Most of the major players in early California settlement were what would be called 'Catalan' today. That starts with Junipero Serra and works on down to Portola, Peralta, Crespi, and Yorba (all Catalan names). The 'Catalan volunteers' formed to bulk of the military component of the Portola expedition. But the only place name I know of they lef is Montserrat in the 951.

    This was actually an innovation...Aragon (the Kingdom Catalonia was part of) was kept out of New World settlement for a long time, untill the reforms of Carlos III (Aragon actually had quite its own empire in the Med for a while). That's why you don't hear a lot of Catalan names in many Latin American countries, but you do in places that remained part of Spain -- Cuba, PR -- after the first wave of independence. Pujols, for example, is a proto-typical Catalan name.

    Anyhoo, I leave you with this work by the greatest Catalan ever (besides Jose Ferrer), Xavier Cougat.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haaO8Xxa6n0

    Also from the Catalan – speaking Balearic Isles, like Saint Junipero Serra, you have George Farragut, father of Civil War admiral David Farragut.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Farragut

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Farragut

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  204. BB753 says:
    @Jack D
    There is no bright line between a language and a dialect. But the most important Catalan dictionary is called el gran diccionari de la llengua catalana. In Spanish, this is el gran diccionario de la lengua catalana. So these are clearly closely related languages.

    Most Romance languages scholars group Catalan within the Ibero-Romanic sub-group, along with Castilian, Portuguese, and the extinct Leonese, Asturian, Navarrese and Aragonese languages or dialects, these last two being very close to Catalan. Provencal did indeed influence Catalan vocabulary, but nevertheless the language remained much closer to other Iberian languages. Whether Valencian and Mallorcan are Catalan dialects is a matter of pointless dispute.
    As for the intelligibility of Catalan to a Spanish speaker, it only takes a couple of months of informal study before you pretty much understand the written and spoken language. Speaking Catalan is a different matter, but it’s not a big deal.
    Basque, of course, is totally unrelated to Latin-derived languages, and to the Indo-European language group. It’s about as difficult to learn as Japanese, except for the script, thankfully! It remains a minority language even in the Basque Country to this day, and was never spoken in the Southern half of Navarre. Though it seemed to be spoken 2k years ago as far North as Aquitania/ Aquitaine in modern France, just South of Bordeaux! In Medieval times, Romance Navarrese enjoyed official status in the Kingdom of Navarre.
    Under Moorish rule, a form of Romance was spoken by the majority Christian population in the South. Judging by the bits and pieces of the language left, we can tell it was closer to Southern Portuguese, and likely influenced modern Southern Castilian dialects such as Andalusian.

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  205. Jack D says:

    I think it’s hard for English speakers to wrap their head around the idea of closely related languages because the closest (surviving) languages to English are quite distant to the point of not being mutually intelligible. In continental languages it’s quite common for there to be a gradation of dialects (some of them even being called languages) – you can understand someone from the next valley pretty well if not perfectly, two valleys over they are harder to understand, etc. Whether something is a language or “just” a dialect is more a question of politics than of linguistics.

    The examples that M. Young gave are kind of trivial. In parts of the US, a paper bag is called a sack, soda is called pop and so on. And as between the US and the UK, they call an elevator a lift, the trunk of a car is the boot, and so on. This does not mean that we speak different languages.

    Even if you concede that Spanish and Catalan are totally separate and distinct languages, this does not really settle the political question one way or the other. There are lots of countries where 2 or more languages are spoken. If every language in India had its own country, they would need at least 22 countries.

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  206. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Nationalist Conundrum.

    Some peoples want more nationalism, but nationalism has been made a bad evil idea. So, they can only justify their call for nationalist exclusion with globalist inclusion. It’s like plugging the holes in the boat while pouring buckets of water into the boat.

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  207. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @AM

    A small difference is that Trump doesn’t hate us, while the Alt-right arguably does.
     
    The alt-right are a lot of different people right now. This blog and my thoughts would count as the alt-right, if you asked anyone at the National Review or "mainstream" conservatives. (I get kicked off the National Review as a Disqus commenter for suggesting that HBD might have something to it.) What's holding the alt-right together is a willingness to have an honest discussion about races and the relationships between different groups of people. It's a chaotic place - lots of people who would never normally be talking to each other are being grouped together.

    Yeah, there are the haters, although quite honestly it's better to know where you stand with people. It saves time and shortens the list of potential good friends, although they may prove still to be helpful in some situations.

    But I think your sensible response highlights my point. You are not going to stand in a crowd of Nazi LARPers and I don't blame you one bit. You might stand with the same people if they and you are working, in that moment, for the same goal and have joined you in an expression of that joint goal. So they ditch the Nazi gear and you both don a T-shirt or hat and save the statues.

    Right now too much of the alt-right (although I think it's getting better) wants it's libertarian cake and eat it too. Richard Spencer has some valid points about the coming status of white people as minorities in their own nations, but he's not going to unite anyone with leftist ideals of "rainbowism". Making Nazis Victims and People too (TM), especially after so many white Americans died fighting them is the ultimate lost cause. If the alt-right is going to achieve anything*, it needs to stop trying to compete in the victim Olympics.

    *I'm hoping they do because if they don't I worry about violence - this can end very poorly for everyone and especially the American black community.

    So they ditch the Nazi gear and you both don a T-shirt or hat and save the statues.

    But who’s going to make them ditch the nazi gear? Its not really like the Alt-Right has a leader. There are times when Spencer sounds moderate compared to his followers. You have White Nationalists like Bill Roper who want to kill Spencer for not being extreme enough and everyone more or less bashes the Alt-Light for being “cucks.” In a world of extremist virtue signaling, its akin to Muslim virtue signaling – the most extreme people get the most virtue points.

    There’s no King to rein in the people, its just a lot of angry guys running together sometimes in the same direction while screaming against the dying of the light. One can only hope that they might do some good, but I’ll still have to be worried about my personal safety and that of my family if they won in any substantial way.

    Wish it was different, but it really feels this way. The closest thing to hope for is that Trump can both utilize them and moderate them, so that “based” minorities like myself could also support him. But its hard to try to talk reasonably to people who hate your guts for existing near them, or for wanting to not be kicked out of my home or job for being born a different race.

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  208. hyperbola says:
    @22pp22
    As they used to say in London when English people still lived there,

    It's Pu''in wo'' done i''.

    https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/01/inenglish/1506854868_900501.html

    To understand that, you have to know that El Pais is NOT a spanish newspaper.

    Europe’s “Bought Journalists” – Counterpunch

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/08/02/europes-bought-journalists/

    Not that long ago in Europe, one had to go to a church, a temple or a mosque to imbibe industrial quantities of religious doctrine.

    Since the beginning of the 21st century, however, it has become possible to access it in a great and self-satisfied profusion on the editorial pages of the continent’s “serious” and nominally progressive dailies, papers like The Guardian, El País, La Repubblica, Le Monde, and Suddeutsche Zeitung.

    The particular brand of theology being pushed?

    Neo-Liberal Imperialism, something the faith’s leading clerics—people like Timothy Garton-Ash, Niall Ferguson. Moisés Naim, Mario Vargas Llosa, Hermann Tertsch, Antonio Caño, Joseph Joffe, and that erstwhile philosopher-clown, Bernard Henry-Levi—prefer to describe in terms of “promoting trans-Atlantic partnerships” and creating and maintaining “Open Societies”……

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  209. hyperbola says:
    @Moshe
    By the way, if Catalonia comes into existence and prospers there will be some agitation for independence from other Tongues, though I can't see other Spanisb principalities actually setting up shop as a completely separate nation from Spain.

    BTW, what would midget Franco do??

    I don't think he would lose pieces of Spain.

    He was a teeny uncharismatic man but despite the official "opinion" of Spaniards today, he was a serious fella. Once his Army of Africa came up from Morocco to relieve the defenders of Alcazar the Nationalists gained the upper hand.

    I'm curious if anyone knows about Catalonian (and other) demands for independence after the generalissimo took hold of the reigns of power?? It would be interesting to see how he handles it and kept Spain unified.
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  210. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Andrew
    "Surprised the neo-Confederates here don’t mention the secession votes in 1860-61."

    Self-determination is the sacred right of all free peoples.

    Freedom proceeds out of the barrel of a gun.

    Voting for secession is not enough to enforce independence and freedom. You have to fight for it against those who oppose it and would control you.

    This should be the lesson of almost every successful secessionist movement in history: Switzerland, Holland, America, Ireland, Abkhazia, Donbass.

    Why did the votes of the South not count in 1860-61? Because they failed to enforce their freedom and will.

    I’m a free person. Do I get secession rights?

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  211. @PhysicistDave
    Tsar Nicholas wrote to me:

    It’s possible [that police shootings suppressed voter turnout], but voting at other elections in Catalonia ( Madrid govt, Barcelona govt, local govt, EU Parliament) suggests this may not be the correct answer.
     
    Just possible??? Wouldn't you consider staying home given the arrests, the use of rubber bullets, etc.? Really? Hardly seems comparable to other elections!

    TN also wrote:

    I can’t find any reference to where the votes were counted, nor who counted them, nor who observed the counting. This may seem like an obscure and arcane point if you have electronic voting or have never been involved in the mechanics of an actual election, but I can assure you that it’s absolutely vital.
     
    Indeed. But, how could you conduct a well-certified election with the central government arresting people, destroying ballots en masse, and shooting people with rubber bullets?

    It was indeed a mess, but that was Madrid's choice. The central government blew it, bigtime.

    I have no idea if the Catalans will do a good job governing themselves. I wish them well.

    But, if Madrid wanted to hold on to the Catalans as loyal, beloved citizens, the central government had an awfully funny way of showing it!

    @Physcist Dave

    The referendum was declared illegal by the courts under the Spanish Constitution. It was also illegal under the Catalan parliament’s own rules which required 90 votes for this to pass, but the measure only garnered 72.

    The point that you missed in my previous post was that all the voting data from all the many elections held in Catalonia in recent years suggests no majority for outright independence. Indeed, most identify with Spain and are happy with the current arrangements whereby Catalonia is a largely self-governing autonomous region.

    I therefore think that you are profoundly in error by characterisng Catalans as cowed victims of a totalitarian regime. It is far more consistent with the evidence to posit that Catalans stayed at home because they didn’t identify with the efforts of a troublemaker like Carles Puidgemont to spark off Spanish Civil War II. The same kind of reaction, in other words, as you would have got if Nicola Sturgeon had carried out her empty threat to run an Indyref 2 without sanction of the Westminster Parliament.

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    • Agree: BB753
    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Tsar Nicholas wrote to me:

    The point that you missed in my previous post was that all the voting data from all the many elections held in Catalonia in recent years suggests no majority for outright independence.
     
    As I said, I think the central government would have won the vote if they had not resorted to thuggish tactics. They made a catastrophic mistake.

    TN also wrote:

    The referendum was declared illegal by the courts under the Spanish Constitution.
     
    And we should respect the so-called "Spanish Constitution" because...?

    Look: all existing regimes are in fact the result of the "illegal" overthrow of some earlier regime -- the current British government is the result of the "illegal" Glorious Revolution and the "illegal" Norman Conquest, the US of the "illegal" American Revolution, the French of more "illegal" overthrows than anyone can keep straight, etc.

    The current Spanish government is somehow or another the result of the "illegal" Spanish Republic and/or the "illegal" Francoist regime, etc.

    Searching for legitimacy of governments is just a con game -- they are all the products of illegitimacy, usually many, many times over.

    There is one way out of the logical morass -- accept, as the American Founders proposed, that people have the right to choose their own government, now, without regard for fake historical legitimacy.

    This is what the Catalans have done.

    Personally. I think neither the American Founders nor the Catalans went far enough ----I'd take the choice down to the level of each individual citizen. But, as Thoreau himself intimated, men are not yet ready for that approach to politics, so I will content myself with wishing the Catalans well.
    , @Anonymous
    Why should Scotland need British permission to secede from the UK? If the Irish held that attitude their country would still be ruled by Britain.
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  212. anon says: • Disclaimer

    I wonder what would Hillary have done.

    The UN Charter argues for both self determination and territorial sovereignty. You get to take your pick.

    Looks like the media is angry with the Spanish national government. On the other hand, I can’t really imagine any issue worth dying for. Let’s all fight to the death to join the EU, keep the Euro, and join NATO. The inverse of Brexit.

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  213. Art says:
    @Miro23

    Of those who remain a plurality still speak the language at home and would like to both be a separate country and part of Spain. And if forced to starkly choose between the two they’re too comfortable and familiar with Spain to have any clue how they would survive on their own.
     
    Welcome to the Swiss Confederation.

    They have four different languages, a high degree a local autonomy (Cantons and Communes), weak Federal power, obligatory local participation in politics and mostly local taxation and spending.

    Also, mandatory military service for all male citizens. It's an issue for some of them, so following the rules of Swiss Democracy, they held local debates (obligatory citizen participation) with a referendum in 2013 that gave conscription 73% support - so that was it.

    On the question of preserving national unity (many foreigners in Switzerland), each foreigner has a work contract with an entry and exit date (solidly enforced), with no question of Swiss citizenship. So, everyone knows their status and why they're there.

    Also, mandatory military service for all male citizens. It’s an issue for some of them, so following the rules of Swiss Democracy, they held local debates (obligatory citizen participation) with a referendum in 2013 that gave conscription 73% support – so that was it.

    Switzerland has the best government system on the planet.

    A weak central government – strong local government – everyone is armed – everyone must vote.

    They speak four different languages – but people identify with their local city – not their race or tribe.

    This is a powerful arrangement because the local community provides most of what is require to sustain life. In this way local people have voting power over their lives.

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    • Replies: @Miro23

    Switzerland has the best government system on the planet.

    A weak central government – strong local government – everyone is armed – everyone must vote.

    They speak four different languages – but people identify with their local city – not their race or tribe.

    This is a powerful arrangement because the local community provides most of what is require to sustain life. In this way local people have voting power over their lives.
     
    That's how I see it, and to my mind, the principal components are 1) mostly local taxation and spending (small federal role), and 2) obligatory individual political participation.

    The downside (as the Swiss admit) is that the process is slow, expensive and often frustrating.

    As Kenrick Jones says, in his excellent (but virtually unknown) little book, the guiding principle is "Subsidiarity", where power is devolved down to the smallest viable unit that can support it, "... each Commune has as much power as it can usefully exploit." M. Kyburz, Mayor of the Commune of Carouge and Lord Mayor of the 46 Communes of Geneva.

    Source: Kenrick Jones (a British academic and local politician) https://www.amazon.com/Swiss-Democracy-Mr-Kenrick-Jones/dp/1906791430/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1507003406&sr=8-1&keywords=swiss+democracy%2C+jones . A book which compares the mechanics of British and Swiss Democracy.
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  214. @AM

    Why on earth would Quebeckers want to remain part of the NATO boondoggle? Because the USSR was going to invade up the St. Lawrence???
     
    The USSR was not going to invade the St. Lawrence because they would be surrounded by Canada, who was a part of NATO. Thus all those *sniff* anglophones would defacto provide them with protection and they could take the seeming moral high ground, which she said.

    This is Thoreau's philosophy at it's finest. Why should I work? Someone else has done all the heavy lifting for me.

    It is a “stretch” for you to view adult human beings as adults??
     
    There are plenty of "adult" teenagers, now especially in the West. Your posts are perfect examples of "Look at my superior morals and attitudes" with no willingness to do any hard work.

    It ends badly, as it has always. But there's nothing to be done but try to soften the fall.

    AM wrote to me:

    There are plenty of “adult” teenagers, now especially in the West.

    Indeed — after all, you yourself are Exhibit A!

    Seriously, you contrasted ordinary people as children vis a vis their “sovereigns” (“minor children with respect to their sovereigns”), which really does show a certain peculiar kind of mental blindness. Surely, among the least mature people in almost any society are those who wield arbitrary power over their fellow adult citizens.

    AM also wrote:

    This is Thoreau’s philosophy at it’s finest. Why should I work? Someone else has done all the heavy lifting for me.

    Well, as far as I can see, Thoreau was a country boy who was able to take care of himself: he enjoyed living alone in the woods, just outside town, and he made a living via writing and manual skills, making pencils, in particular: he even invented a machine for making higher quality graphite for pencils.

    No welfare state back in Henry’s time! It is the people such as yourself who think the “sovereigns” are more mature than the productive members of society who bear the responsibility for the corrupt society we live in today.

    Man up, AM! Take responsibility for what you toadies to “sovereigns” have created. There is a reason that the people who built this country were Lockeans, not Filmerites like you. Toadies to the “sovereigns” like you are the problem. The ordinary people you despise are the solution.

    Productive people tend to be Lockeans. Filmerite = parasite.

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    • Replies: @Nico


    There are plenty of “adult” teenagers, now especially in the West.
     
    Indeed — after all, you yourself are Exhibit A!
     
    Funny, since he just accused you of the same. I remember this game: "I know you are but what am I?" Been a while.

    Seriously, you contrasted ordinary people as children vis a vis their “sovereigns” (“minor children with respect to their sovereigns”), which really does show a certain peculiar kind of mental blindness.
     
    That was MY analogy, not AM's. If you're going to scold us at least get our respective infractions straight.
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  215. @Anonymous
    By your logic, why don't we just let CA secede and permanently ruin the security of the United States? There are some things which are law for a reason. Likewise, the Civil War which maintained the Union.

    Anonymous wrote to me:

    By your logic, why don’t we just let CA secede and permanently ruin the security of the United States?

    Oh, I plan on voting for CA secession — trust me, the Union will be better off without us.

    Anonymous also wrote:

    There are some things which are law for a reason. Likewise, the Civil War which maintained the Union.

    There was no “law” that the Southern states broke in seceding: Lincoln just decided he wanted to hold on to his power (and revenues).

    My personal sympathies are with those abolitionists who wanted to expel the slaveholding states from the Union. But, no matter how you cut it, over 600,000 dead in the Civil War was not an optimal solution — let’s hope the Spanish and Catalans are wiser than Lincoln and Jeff Davis.

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  216. @RadicalCenter
    Nothing against Spain, but I suppose I'd be happy for the Basques and Catalans if they both secede and become independent countries. I just hope that they can so peacefully.

    I'd also hope that the numerous new small ethnostates and the larger original countries have the sense to sign a mutual defense agreement and a favorable trade agreement with each other, including Catalan-Spain and Basqueland-Spain-France. Give sovereignty and the pride of cultural independence to each people who wants it and can peacefully coexist with its neighbors, without giving up the man benefits of the current bonds in a single country and in the EU.

    For the same reason, i would hope the new countries would not just defeat the whole purpose by applying to re join the damn EU. Anyone know the sense of the people there re being truly independent or effectively staying in the EU as smaller members?

    Anyone know the sense of the people there re being truly independent or effectively staying in the EU as smaller members?Definitely staying within the EU. They want political and linguistic autonomy vis-a-vis Spain. They’ll probably get more autonomy inside the EU than as part of Spain. The problem is if all of Europe goes their way, who’s gonna defend the borders? Because every EU country and subdivision is thinking about how much money he’ll save by zeroing out the defense budget. Ireland doesn’t need a military because Great Britain. What if Britain devolved into Wessex, East Anglia, Kent, Cornwall and so on, and zeroed out its defense budget along with the rest of Europe?

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    I don't think the Muslims running England, Sweden, France, Netherlands, and western Germany by then, will leave themselves defenseless against the Chinese. They'll probably try to build real militaries.
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  217. @Tsar Nicholas
    @Physcist Dave

    The referendum was declared illegal by the courts under the Spanish Constitution. It was also illegal under the Catalan parliament's own rules which required 90 votes for this to pass, but the measure only garnered 72.

    The point that you missed in my previous post was that all the voting data from all the many elections held in Catalonia in recent years suggests no majority for outright independence. Indeed, most identify with Spain and are happy with the current arrangements whereby Catalonia is a largely self-governing autonomous region.

    I therefore think that you are profoundly in error by characterisng Catalans as cowed victims of a totalitarian regime. It is far more consistent with the evidence to posit that Catalans stayed at home because they didn't identify with the efforts of a troublemaker like Carles Puidgemont to spark off Spanish Civil War II. The same kind of reaction, in other words, as you would have got if Nicola Sturgeon had carried out her empty threat to run an Indyref 2 without sanction of the Westminster Parliament.

    Tsar Nicholas wrote to me:

    The point that you missed in my previous post was that all the voting data from all the many elections held in Catalonia in recent years suggests no majority for outright independence.

    As I said, I think the central government would have won the vote if they had not resorted to thuggish tactics. They made a catastrophic mistake.

    TN also wrote:

    The referendum was declared illegal by the courts under the Spanish Constitution.

    And we should respect the so-called “Spanish Constitution” because…?

    Look: all existing regimes are in fact the result of the “illegal” overthrow of some earlier regime — the current British government is the result of the “illegal” Glorious Revolution and the “illegal” Norman Conquest, the US of the “illegal” American Revolution, the French of more “illegal” overthrows than anyone can keep straight, etc.

    The current Spanish government is somehow or another the result of the “illegal” Spanish Republic and/or the “illegal” Francoist regime, etc.

    Searching for legitimacy of governments is just a con game — they are all the products of illegitimacy, usually many, many times over.

    There is one way out of the logical morass — accept, as the American Founders proposed, that people have the right to choose their own government, now, without regard for fake historical legitimacy.

    This is what the Catalans have done.

    Personally. I think neither the American Founders nor the Catalans went far enough —-I’d take the choice down to the level of each individual citizen. But, as Thoreau himself intimated, men are not yet ready for that approach to politics, so I will content myself with wishing the Catalans well.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    For my part, I will wish the traitors discover just how extensive modern security can crack down on ingrates who have lived off the sacrifices of their fellow Spaniards and now will create a "country" where they can invite all of the immigrants they wish, dumping the troublemakers into Spain proper, and claim holiness.

    This will end, but not in the way they want.
    , @Tsar Nicholas
    Physicist Dave wrote:

    "And we should respect the so-called “Spanish Constitution” because…?"

    Well, maybe Spanish history. It all seemed so simple when they got rid of Alfonso XIII and decalred the Second Republic in 1931. But the "errors" of the Second Republic (I am being kind) led to a reaction, a bloody civil war and forty years of Francoism. All that was only put to one side in the 1970s with the restoration of a (constitutional) monarchy and the present political order. I think that given the horrors of what went before, anyone should at least hesitate before throwing out the status quo.

    You are ignoring the fact also that the Catalan separatists threw their own rules overboard and ignored their won parliament's rules hich required 90 votes for this measure. The justification the separatists gave for "birthing the independence referendum law with forceps" (ref Joan Tardá, of Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya) was that the other constitutional parties would not help them. Forgive me for saying this, but this grotesque justification sounds not only totalitarian but it looks like clubbing the voters by way of a show of hands.

    I leave with a thought experiment, posted by me elsewhere:

    What you would think if Sadiq Khan used his power as Mayor of London and Labour party control of various London boroughs to conduct a city-wide referendum on the following question:

    “Election campaigns are harmful to ethnic minorities and elections are not Sharia-compliant. Voting should therefore be abolished. Tick one box. Agree/Disagree.”

    Would you always-voters out there be supportive of the evil Tory government of Theresa May going to the High Court to get a restraining order on the grounds that (1) This would likely cause public disturbance and (2) Mr Khan is exceeding his powers.

    If the High Court granted that order and the Mayor went ahead anyway, would you support the Metropolitan Police going in and seizing ballot boxes, ballot papers and the like?

    My point is not to suggest that anyone is going to do this but to show that there may be some circumstances where a referendum or voting is actually not a very good idea.

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  218. @anonymous
    I happen to have a compact disc consisting of Catalan songs sung by Carreras. Catalan sounds like a cross between Spanish and French. Indeed, it is said to be similar to Provencal.

    Catalan sounds like a cross between Spanish and French. Indeed, it is said to be similar to Provencal.

    Catalan (at least before it was “bastardized” by Spanish influence) and Provençal are essentially both “dialects” of Occitan (the Langue d’Oc, hence the name of the region Languedoc), which was spoken in southern France, northeast Spain and even a bit of Italy. One of the great unknown battles of history was the Battle of Muret (near Toulouse) in 1213 in which the “northern” Crusader (anti-Cathar) army of Simon de Montfort defeated the Catalan, Aragonese and Cathar army led by Peter II, King of Aragon and Count of Barcelona. It was actually a bit of an upset, as the southern forces were favored, and the defeat has traditionally been attributed to Peter’s carousing on the eve of battle. Had the battle gone the other way, it is not at all inconceivable that today much of southern France and Catalonia would be a separate country speaking a language not too different from Catalan.

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  219. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @PhysicistDave
    Tsar Nicholas wrote to me:

    The point that you missed in my previous post was that all the voting data from all the many elections held in Catalonia in recent years suggests no majority for outright independence.
     
    As I said, I think the central government would have won the vote if they had not resorted to thuggish tactics. They made a catastrophic mistake.

    TN also wrote:

    The referendum was declared illegal by the courts under the Spanish Constitution.
     
    And we should respect the so-called "Spanish Constitution" because...?

    Look: all existing regimes are in fact the result of the "illegal" overthrow of some earlier regime -- the current British government is the result of the "illegal" Glorious Revolution and the "illegal" Norman Conquest, the US of the "illegal" American Revolution, the French of more "illegal" overthrows than anyone can keep straight, etc.

    The current Spanish government is somehow or another the result of the "illegal" Spanish Republic and/or the "illegal" Francoist regime, etc.

    Searching for legitimacy of governments is just a con game -- they are all the products of illegitimacy, usually many, many times over.

    There is one way out of the logical morass -- accept, as the American Founders proposed, that people have the right to choose their own government, now, without regard for fake historical legitimacy.

    This is what the Catalans have done.

    Personally. I think neither the American Founders nor the Catalans went far enough ----I'd take the choice down to the level of each individual citizen. But, as Thoreau himself intimated, men are not yet ready for that approach to politics, so I will content myself with wishing the Catalans well.

    For my part, I will wish the traitors discover just how extensive modern security can crack down on ingrates who have lived off the sacrifices of their fellow Spaniards and now will create a “country” where they can invite all of the immigrants they wish, dumping the troublemakers into Spain proper, and claim holiness.

    This will end, but not in the way they want.

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    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Anonymous wrote to me:

    For my part, I will wish the traitors discover just how extensive modern security can crack down on ingrates who have lived off the sacrifices of their fellow Spaniards...
     
    Traitors????? And why do you say they have "lived off the sacrifices of their fellow Spaniards"? Catalonia is much more affluent than Spain in general.

    Did you feel that way about the British who voted for Brexit? Or the Estonians, Latvians, etc. who chose to be independent of the USSR?

    In all honesty, you do sound exactly like the Communist apparatchiks in the old Soviet Union who denied anyone the right of exit. Numerous commenters here have detailed that Catalan is not mutually intelligible with Spanish. The Catalans want out. It is not your or my choice. It is theirs.

    Your contempt for your fellow human beings sounds exactly like that monster Hayley Geftman-Gold who expressed her hatred for the victims in Vegas. Fortunately, CBS fired her.

    I just hope that someday you and she will find that you actually need help from other human beings. Maybe you two can still become human.

    Maybe.
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  220. @Anonymous
    For my part, I will wish the traitors discover just how extensive modern security can crack down on ingrates who have lived off the sacrifices of their fellow Spaniards and now will create a "country" where they can invite all of the immigrants they wish, dumping the troublemakers into Spain proper, and claim holiness.

    This will end, but not in the way they want.

    Anonymous wrote to me:

    For my part, I will wish the traitors discover just how extensive modern security can crack down on ingrates who have lived off the sacrifices of their fellow Spaniards…

    Traitors????? And why do you say they have “lived off the sacrifices of their fellow Spaniards”? Catalonia is much more affluent than Spain in general.

    Did you feel that way about the British who voted for Brexit? Or the Estonians, Latvians, etc. who chose to be independent of the USSR?

    In all honesty, you do sound exactly like the Communist apparatchiks in the old Soviet Union who denied anyone the right of exit. Numerous commenters here have detailed that Catalan is not mutually intelligible with Spanish. The Catalans want out. It is not your or my choice. It is theirs.

    Your contempt for your fellow human beings sounds exactly like that monster Hayley Geftman-Gold who expressed her hatred for the victims in Vegas. Fortunately, CBS fired her.

    I just hope that someday you and she will find that you actually need help from other human beings. Maybe you two can still become human.

    Maybe.

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    • Agree: RadicalCenter
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  221. Wilkey says:

    EU leaders insist they absolutely must respect the rights of foreigners from distant lands who stampede into their countries. They do not have to respect the rights to self-determination of people whose ancestry in Catalonia dates back centuries or even millenia. That, to me, is the lesson of Spain’s suppression of the referendum in Catalonia.

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  222. AP says:
    @al gore rhythms
    It is stirring. But the fact that the crowd chant 'no paseran' shows how much Catalan nationalism is bound up with a romantic view of their historic left-wing resistance to fascism and Spanish nationalism.

    But what was the driving focus? I suspect that national liberation came first and ideology was secondary to that. he enemy of Catalonia’s independence was an authoritarian conservative government, so the Catalans went leftist. If Madrid was leftist/communist, perhaps the Catalans would have gone right-wing. Were the anti-colonial Vietnamese leftists first, or Vietnamese nationalists first, who had to be leftists because their enemies were western democratic states during the cold war? Western Ukraine had a national liberationist movement in the 1930s and 1940s. Its enemies were Poland, an ally of western democracy France, and the USSR. So the Ukrainian movement was far-right fascist in nature. But when, after the mid 1940s, the enemy was strictly the USSR, it suddenly became democratic/pro-western. When considering these national liberation movements, ultimately left-right is rather secondary.

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  223. @PhysicistDave
    Tsar Nicholas wrote to me:

    The point that you missed in my previous post was that all the voting data from all the many elections held in Catalonia in recent years suggests no majority for outright independence.
     
    As I said, I think the central government would have won the vote if they had not resorted to thuggish tactics. They made a catastrophic mistake.

    TN also wrote:

    The referendum was declared illegal by the courts under the Spanish Constitution.
     
    And we should respect the so-called "Spanish Constitution" because...?

    Look: all existing regimes are in fact the result of the "illegal" overthrow of some earlier regime -- the current British government is the result of the "illegal" Glorious Revolution and the "illegal" Norman Conquest, the US of the "illegal" American Revolution, the French of more "illegal" overthrows than anyone can keep straight, etc.

    The current Spanish government is somehow or another the result of the "illegal" Spanish Republic and/or the "illegal" Francoist regime, etc.

    Searching for legitimacy of governments is just a con game -- they are all the products of illegitimacy, usually many, many times over.

    There is one way out of the logical morass -- accept, as the American Founders proposed, that people have the right to choose their own government, now, without regard for fake historical legitimacy.

    This is what the Catalans have done.

    Personally. I think neither the American Founders nor the Catalans went far enough ----I'd take the choice down to the level of each individual citizen. But, as Thoreau himself intimated, men are not yet ready for that approach to politics, so I will content myself with wishing the Catalans well.

    Physicist Dave wrote:

    “And we should respect the so-called “Spanish Constitution” because…?”

    Well, maybe Spanish history. It all seemed so simple when they got rid of Alfonso XIII and decalred the Second Republic in 1931. But the “errors” of the Second Republic (I am being kind) led to a reaction, a bloody civil war and forty years of Francoism. All that was only put to one side in the 1970s with the restoration of a (constitutional) monarchy and the present political order. I think that given the horrors of what went before, anyone should at least hesitate before throwing out the status quo.

    You are ignoring the fact also that the Catalan separatists threw their own rules overboard and ignored their won parliament’s rules hich required 90 votes for this measure. The justification the separatists gave for “birthing the independence referendum law with forceps” (ref Joan Tardá, of Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya) was that the other constitutional parties would not help them. Forgive me for saying this, but this grotesque justification sounds not only totalitarian but it looks like clubbing the voters by way of a show of hands.

    I leave with a thought experiment, posted by me elsewhere:

    What you would think if Sadiq Khan used his power as Mayor of London and Labour party control of various London boroughs to conduct a city-wide referendum on the following question:

    “Election campaigns are harmful to ethnic minorities and elections are not Sharia-compliant. Voting should therefore be abolished. Tick one box. Agree/Disagree.”

    Would you always-voters out there be supportive of the evil Tory government of Theresa May going to the High Court to get a restraining order on the grounds that (1) This would likely cause public disturbance and (2) Mr Khan is exceeding his powers.

    If the High Court granted that order and the Mayor went ahead anyway, would you support the Metropolitan Police going in and seizing ballot boxes, ballot papers and the like?

    My point is not to suggest that anyone is going to do this but to show that there may be some circumstances where a referendum or voting is actually not a very good idea.

    Read More
    • Agree: BB753
    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Tsar Nicholas wrote to me:

    I think that given the horrors of what went before, anyone should at least hesitate before throwing out the status quo.
     
    But no one is "throwing out" the Spanish Constitution. It is just that the area over which it applies will now be a bit smaller! (My own guess, by the way, is that a compromise may be worked out which simply gives Catalonia a bit more regional autonomy.)

    TN also wrote:

    What you would think if Sadiq Khan used his power as Mayor of London and Labour party control of various London boroughs to conduct a city-wide referendum on the following question:

    “Election campaigns are harmful to ethnic minorities and elections are not Sharia-compliant. Voting should therefore be abolished. Tick one box. Agree/Disagree.”
     
    As long as we agree that any section, indeed any individual, who disagrees with this can secede from this New Sharia London, what would be the problem? I suspect that quite a few Londoners would choose to secede from Sharia London.

    TN also wrote:

    My point is not to suggest that anyone is going to do this but to show that there may be some circumstances where a referendum or voting is actually not a very good idea.
     
    Indeed. But a vote to simply refuse to live under a government that you do not want to live under -- seems to me such a vote is prima facie legitimate. As I said before:

    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
     
    Seems to me not a bad idea.
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  224. Read More
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  225. @Jack D
    All of the "independence" movements in Europe are really phony. None of these countries could exist in the long run without being under the umbrella of NATO and the EU. Does any of them have a military that could resist invasion or an economy that could support itself?

    Recently the hurricane went thru a few little chicken shit "countries" in the Caribbean that were former British colonies. Five minutes after the hurricane was over they were begging the former mother country for help.

    All it takes is one ruthless Putin-like character next door and the "independence" of any of these places is over.

    The current stuff going on shows how important it is for national unity to suppress all minority languages. It seems "cute" and harmless to allow minorities to keep their own language but it is deadly. A separate language community is fertile ground for separatism. The US had better kill off Spanish before it is too late.

    You’re right about the surge of Spanish as a major balkanizing force in the USA. I like the language but it should not be allowed to elbow aside our traditional common language and culture.

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  226. @Johann Ricke
    Anyone know the sense of the people there re being truly independent or effectively staying in the EU as smaller members?Definitely staying within the EU. They want political and linguistic autonomy vis-a-vis Spain. They'll probably get more autonomy inside the EU than as part of Spain. The problem is if all of Europe goes their way, who's gonna defend the borders? Because every EU country and subdivision is thinking about how much money he'll save by zeroing out the defense budget. Ireland doesn't need a military because Great Britain. What if Britain devolved into Wessex, East Anglia, Kent, Cornwall and so on, and zeroed out its defense budget along with the rest of Europe?

    I don’t think the Muslims running England, Sweden, France, Netherlands, and western Germany by then, will leave themselves defenseless against the Chinese. They’ll probably try to build real militaries.

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  227. Miro23 says:
    @Art
    Also, mandatory military service for all male citizens. It’s an issue for some of them, so following the rules of Swiss Democracy, they held local debates (obligatory citizen participation) with a referendum in 2013 that gave conscription 73% support – so that was it.

    Switzerland has the best government system on the planet.

    A weak central government – strong local government – everyone is armed - everyone must vote.

    They speak four different languages – but people identify with their local city – not their race or tribe.

    This is a powerful arrangement because the local community provides most of what is require to sustain life. In this way local people have voting power over their lives.

    Switzerland has the best government system on the planet.

    A weak central government – strong local government – everyone is armed – everyone must vote.

    They speak four different languages – but people identify with their local city – not their race or tribe.

    This is a powerful arrangement because the local community provides most of what is require to sustain life. In this way local people have voting power over their lives.

    That’s how I see it, and to my mind, the principal components are 1) mostly local taxation and spending (small federal role), and 2) obligatory individual political participation.

    The downside (as the Swiss admit) is that the process is slow, expensive and often frustrating.

    As Kenrick Jones says, in his excellent (but virtually unknown) little book, the guiding principle is “Subsidiarity”, where power is devolved down to the smallest viable unit that can support it, “… each Commune has as much power as it can usefully exploit.” M. Kyburz, Mayor of the Commune of Carouge and Lord Mayor of the 46 Communes of Geneva.

    Source: Kenrick Jones (a British academic and local politician) https://www.amazon.com/Swiss-Democracy-Mr-Kenrick-Jones/dp/1906791430/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1507003406&sr=8-1&keywords=swiss+democracy%2C+jones . A book which compares the mechanics of British and Swiss Democracy.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Vasque is farther from Spanish than Hindi is.
    , @Art
    As Kenrick Jones says, in his excellent (but virtually unknown) little book, the guiding principle is “Subsidiarity”, where power is devolved down to the smallest viable unit that can support it,

    Very interesting --- I ordered a copy --- Thanks!

    The best part is the Swiss have stayed neutral – no wars!

    Think Peace --- Art
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  228. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Steve Sailer
    The British parliamentary system is highly winner take all. There is little in the way of checks and balances, especially because lower levels of government don't have much in the way of rights. Margaret Thatcher didn't like the mayor of London so she just abolished his job.

    The British system is optimized for quick action, while still making the government accountable. It's kind of a pirate ship system.

    Power is vested in the hands of MPs – and ultimately in the hands of their constituency electors.
    The concept of ‘party’ is all important in British politics. In the Tory party, a revolt of MPs is sufficient to remove a sitting Prime Minister, the Labour Party does things differently with individual party members having an input.

    The key point to take home is that all policy decisions are dependent on obtaining a majority vote in parliament. Individual MPs supposedly vote in accordance with their consciences, not necessarily toeing the ‘party line’.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The British system is much more decisive than the American checks and balances system.

    I'm reminded of the kind of systems that evolved among pirate ships.

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  229. @Anonymous
    Power is vested in the hands of MPs - and ultimately in the hands of their constituency electors.
    The concept of 'party' is all important in British politics. In the Tory party, a revolt of MPs is sufficient to remove a sitting Prime Minister, the Labour Party does things differently with individual party members having an input.

    The key point to take home is that all policy decisions are dependent on obtaining a majority vote in parliament. Individual MPs supposedly vote in accordance with their consciences, not necessarily toeing the 'party line'.

    The British system is much more decisive than the American checks and balances system.

    I’m reminded of the kind of systems that evolved among pirate ships.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The British system, of course, evolved from feudalism and the concept of 'absolute monarchy', ie identifying the British state itself with the personage of the King.

    By hook and by crook, by revolt and revolution, by Reform Act and rebellion, the concept of the 'Crown' as the essence of the British political state moved slowly but surely from the living, breathing Monarch to the 650 odd directly elected constituency MPs.

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  230. @Tsar Nicholas
    Physicist Dave wrote:

    "And we should respect the so-called “Spanish Constitution” because…?"

    Well, maybe Spanish history. It all seemed so simple when they got rid of Alfonso XIII and decalred the Second Republic in 1931. But the "errors" of the Second Republic (I am being kind) led to a reaction, a bloody civil war and forty years of Francoism. All that was only put to one side in the 1970s with the restoration of a (constitutional) monarchy and the present political order. I think that given the horrors of what went before, anyone should at least hesitate before throwing out the status quo.

    You are ignoring the fact also that the Catalan separatists threw their own rules overboard and ignored their won parliament's rules hich required 90 votes for this measure. The justification the separatists gave for "birthing the independence referendum law with forceps" (ref Joan Tardá, of Esquerra Republicana de Catalunya) was that the other constitutional parties would not help them. Forgive me for saying this, but this grotesque justification sounds not only totalitarian but it looks like clubbing the voters by way of a show of hands.

    I leave with a thought experiment, posted by me elsewhere:

    What you would think if Sadiq Khan used his power as Mayor of London and Labour party control of various London boroughs to conduct a city-wide referendum on the following question:

    “Election campaigns are harmful to ethnic minorities and elections are not Sharia-compliant. Voting should therefore be abolished. Tick one box. Agree/Disagree.”

    Would you always-voters out there be supportive of the evil Tory government of Theresa May going to the High Court to get a restraining order on the grounds that (1) This would likely cause public disturbance and (2) Mr Khan is exceeding his powers.

    If the High Court granted that order and the Mayor went ahead anyway, would you support the Metropolitan Police going in and seizing ballot boxes, ballot papers and the like?

    My point is not to suggest that anyone is going to do this but to show that there may be some circumstances where a referendum or voting is actually not a very good idea.

    Tsar Nicholas wrote to me:

    I think that given the horrors of what went before, anyone should at least hesitate before throwing out the status quo.

    But no one is “throwing out” the Spanish Constitution. It is just that the area over which it applies will now be a bit smaller! (My own guess, by the way, is that a compromise may be worked out which simply gives Catalonia a bit more regional autonomy.)

    TN also wrote:

    What you would think if Sadiq Khan used his power as Mayor of London and Labour party control of various London boroughs to conduct a city-wide referendum on the following question:

    “Election campaigns are harmful to ethnic minorities and elections are not Sharia-compliant. Voting should therefore be abolished. Tick one box. Agree/Disagree.”

    As long as we agree that any section, indeed any individual, who disagrees with this can secede from this New Sharia London, what would be the problem? I suspect that quite a few Londoners would choose to secede from Sharia London.

    TN also wrote:

    My point is not to suggest that anyone is going to do this but to show that there may be some circumstances where a referendum or voting is actually not a very good idea.

    Indeed. But a vote to simply refuse to live under a government that you do not want to live under — seems to me such a vote is prima facie legitimate. As I said before:

    That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

    Seems to me not a bad idea.

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  231. Nico says:
    @PhysicistDave
    Nico wrote:

    Children have no right, for example, to “secede” from their parents...
     
    Well... as a practical matter, yes, they do: it's called "running away from home." You never knew any kid who did that? Neither you nor any of your sibs did that? Then you are pretty unusual. Of course, in most cases, an hour or so is long enough for the kid to figure out that it is the kid, not the parents, who have the good deal -- i.e., the kid usually chooses to go back home.

    Nico also wrote:


    most everyone would agree, however, that in principle children should not expect lavish enrichment on their parents death if they constantly dishonored said parents in life.
     
    You undercut your own case: what you are describing is the obvious fact that parents do have the right to separate from their adult children.

    Nico also wrote:


    Quebec might have been reluctant to join NATO at first but being surrounded by the bloc would certainly have benefitted de facto from its protection...
     
    Why on earth would Quebeckers want to remain part of the NATO boondoggle? Because the USSR was going to invade up the St. Lawrence???

    Nico also wrote:


    Even if we regard their constituent peoples as adults and not minor children with respect to their sovereigns as per the preceding analogy (and for me that is a stretch)
     
    It is a "stretch" for you to view adult human beings as adults??

    Then I hope, Nico, that you are living in an appropriate institution and not allowed to freely walk the streets.

    So much disingenuity in your posts if you hadn’t organized them for me along the various bites of my blurbs you’re replying to I wouldn’t even know where to begin.

    Well… as a practical matter, yes, they do: it’s called “running away from home.” You never knew any kid who did that? Neither you nor any of your sibs did that? Then you are pretty unusual. Of course, in most cases, an hour or so is long enough for the kid to figure out that it is the kid, not the parents, who have the good deal — i.e., the kid usually chooses to go back home.

    That’s one heck of a load of obfuscation, equivocation and misapprehension.

    A child “running away from home” in a not-uncommon fit of juvenile outrage at the limitations imposed by their parents’ custodianship is not “seceding” from the family in any manner which would be de facto or de jure recognized by any sane adult (though our magistrates in the West are increasingly less and less sane, to the point where one does wonder, as did Barbara Olson, when children will get the right to sue their parents over taking out the trash). If by some chance such children do not return on their own initiative, then if and when they are discovered by competent authorities they will in normal circumstances be returned to their parents, regardless of whether they ask to be returned. You might as well say that there is a “right” to steal because some people happen to do so. No, minor children have NO right to secede from their families on their own volition, and court-ordered seizure or emancipation is (for the time being) the exception, not the rule.

    You undercut your own case: what you are describing is the obvious fact that parents do have the right to separate from their adult children.

    It doesn’t undercut anything. In the analogy I provided, the parents are likened to the sovereign (in this case, the Spanish crown and the state which is coterminous with the crown) and the children to the subjects. My point was that even children who are able (only after the attainment of the majority, NDLR) to refuse to honor their parents do not necessarily escape without punishment. Furthermore, just as parents do not need to cut off a part of their *material* estate to send rebellious children on their way, I see no obligation for a sovereign to allow disrespectful subjects (in this case, Catalan independentists) to take part of his land with them. (Traditionally rebellion was punished by exile or death.)

    Moreover, there are often legal limits to the extent to and circumstances in which parents may disinherit children, and in some countries individuals have a statutory duty to feed and shelter their major ascendants and descendants in times of need.

    Why on earth would Quebeckers want to remain part of the NATO boondoggle? Because the USSR was going to invade up the St. Lawrence???

    See AM’s point on herd immunity. Another threat would be the risk of land-grabbers from surrounding Canadian provinces deciding to encroach on Québécois territory if the restraints imposed by the centralized defense arrangement in North America. Either way, Québec would benefit from the deterrent afforded by living next to powerful neighbors without pouring much in on its own, as is currently the case for all of Canada with respect to the U.S. (see War Plan Crimson).

    It is a “stretch” for you to view adult human beings as adults??

    You are equivocating back and forth between analogies and literal categories. It is a stretch for me to consider the analogy of parents/adult children to the Spanish crown/Catalan subjects as more befitting than the analogy of parents/minor children. Yes, putting aside for a moment the conduct of the Spanish government and national police force, I consider the present political behavior of the Catalan separatists to be immature and ill-brained.

    I hope, Nico, that you are living in an appropriate institution and not allowed to freely walk the streets.

    If you really are that afraid, then just remember that nobody can force you, as an adult, to leave the safety of your home for the wild jungle of the streets.

    One more:

    Productive people tend to be Lockeans. Filmerite = parasite.

    If saying so could make it so, Caitlyn Jenner would have a penis and I would be the King of France.

    Read More
    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Nico wrote to me:

    If you really are that afraid, then just remember that nobody can force you, as an adult, to leave the safety of your home for the wild jungle of the streets.
     
    No, Nico, I am not afraid of you. Your form of insanity is probably harmless -- except to yourself. Best for your own safety if you are confined, I suspect.

    Someone who takes Filmer seriously in 2017 is a wee bit off, mentally, wouldn't you say?
    , @PhysicistDave
    Nico wrote to me:

    In the analogy I provided, the parents are likened to the sovereign (in this case, the Spanish crown and the state which is coterminous with the crown) and the children to the subjects. My point was that even children who are able (only after the attainment of the majority, NDLR) to refuse to honor their parents do not necessarily escape without punishment.
     
    Oh, your analogy is clear enough. But my point is that what you call "punishment" is simply the parents cutting off contact with the kids: i.e., exactly the same thing the Catalans want to do vis a vis Madrid.

    By all means, let the parents cut off their adult kids, and let the Catalans cut off Madrid. Let any adult cut off relations with any other adults he or she chooses.

    Laissez faire et laissez passer; le monde va de lui même.

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  232. Nico says:
    @PhysicistDave
    AM wrote to me:

    There are plenty of “adult” teenagers, now especially in the West.
     
    Indeed -- after all, you yourself are Exhibit A!

    Seriously, you contrasted ordinary people as children vis a vis their "sovereigns" ("minor children with respect to their sovereigns"), which really does show a certain peculiar kind of mental blindness. Surely, among the least mature people in almost any society are those who wield arbitrary power over their fellow adult citizens.

    AM also wrote:

    This is Thoreau’s philosophy at it’s finest. Why should I work? Someone else has done all the heavy lifting for me.
     
    Well, as far as I can see, Thoreau was a country boy who was able to take care of himself: he enjoyed living alone in the woods, just outside town, and he made a living via writing and manual skills, making pencils, in particular: he even invented a machine for making higher quality graphite for pencils.

    No welfare state back in Henry's time! It is the people such as yourself who think the "sovereigns" are more mature than the productive members of society who bear the responsibility for the corrupt society we live in today.

    Man up, AM! Take responsibility for what you toadies to "sovereigns" have created. There is a reason that the people who built this country were Lockeans, not Filmerites like you. Toadies to the "sovereigns" like you are the problem. The ordinary people you despise are the solution.

    Productive people tend to be Lockeans. Filmerite = parasite.

    There are plenty of “adult” teenagers, now especially in the West.

    Indeed — after all, you yourself are Exhibit A!

    Funny, since he just accused you of the same. I remember this game: “I know you are but what am I?” Been a while.

    Seriously, you contrasted ordinary people as children vis a vis their “sovereigns” (“minor children with respect to their sovereigns”), which really does show a certain peculiar kind of mental blindness.

    That was MY analogy, not AM’s. If you’re going to scold us at least get our respective infractions straight.

    Read More
    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    Nico wrote to me:

    That was MY analogy, not AM’s. If you’re going to scold us at least get our respective infractions straight.
     
    Ah, Nico, you neo-fascists are all the same: why should I be any more careful making distinctions than you guys do?
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  233. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Steve Sailer
    The British system is much more decisive than the American checks and balances system.

    I'm reminded of the kind of systems that evolved among pirate ships.

    The British system, of course, evolved from feudalism and the concept of ‘absolute monarchy’, ie identifying the British state itself with the personage of the King.

    By hook and by crook, by revolt and revolution, by Reform Act and rebellion, the concept of the ‘Crown’ as the essence of the British political state moved slowly but surely from the living, breathing Monarch to the 650 odd directly elected constituency MPs.

    Read More
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  234. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Miro23

    Switzerland has the best government system on the planet.

    A weak central government – strong local government – everyone is armed – everyone must vote.

    They speak four different languages – but people identify with their local city – not their race or tribe.

    This is a powerful arrangement because the local community provides most of what is require to sustain life. In this way local people have voting power over their lives.
     
    That's how I see it, and to my mind, the principal components are 1) mostly local taxation and spending (small federal role), and 2) obligatory individual political participation.

    The downside (as the Swiss admit) is that the process is slow, expensive and often frustrating.

    As Kenrick Jones says, in his excellent (but virtually unknown) little book, the guiding principle is "Subsidiarity", where power is devolved down to the smallest viable unit that can support it, "... each Commune has as much power as it can usefully exploit." M. Kyburz, Mayor of the Commune of Carouge and Lord Mayor of the 46 Communes of Geneva.

    Source: Kenrick Jones (a British academic and local politician) https://www.amazon.com/Swiss-Democracy-Mr-Kenrick-Jones/dp/1906791430/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1507003406&sr=8-1&keywords=swiss+democracy%2C+jones . A book which compares the mechanics of British and Swiss Democracy.

    Vasque is farther from Spanish than Hindi is.

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  235. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Miro23
    I was wondering how long it would take for Catalonia to turn up (actually the day of the independence vote!)

    In relation to the Catalan point, if having a bona fide language and not merely a dialectical variant of the country’s main language is the criterion for justifying a nation-state, then Spain would have about 6 to 7 new countries whilst Italy would fragment into perhaps twice as many.
     
    Not really, as a non-native Spanish speaker , I can understand written and spoken Catalan with some effort, but Basque is completely unintelligible, something like Welsh for an English speaker. Catalan is a dialect of Spanish with some French mixed in.

    But since the Spanish Right also purports to defend the Catholic Spain in the culture wars, it ends up casting itself as a punching bag for the grievances of every weed-smoking co-op buying cat-owning leftie in Catalonia and every other corner of Spain. Such that I have lefty friends in Madrid who are egging on Catalan independence because they hope it will become the incarnation of a Spain they wished to see had the Second Republic triumphed.
     
    I don't doubt it, the Civil War seems to be resurfacing in Catalonia.

    Not really, as a non-native Spanish speaker , I can understand written and spoken Catalan with some effort, but Basque is completely unintelligible, something like Welsh for an English speaker.

    To what extent can you understand French, Italian, or Sicilian?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Miro23

    To what extent can you understand French, Italian, or Sicilian?
     
    I already know French, but understanding Italian a lot more difficult than understanding Catalan. With Catalan I can quite quickly get the whole meaning of a text or conversation, but with Italian I can only understand a few words and phrases and make some guesses.

    So my conclusion is that Catalan is a lot closer to Spanish than it is to Italian, and it meets the conditions of being a dialect. But if political claims could make a language, then Catalan would of course be a language.

    I didn't know that there was a Sicilain language (?) separate from Italian but I'm not surprised.
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  236. @Nico


    There are plenty of “adult” teenagers, now especially in the West.
     
    Indeed — after all, you yourself are Exhibit A!
     
    Funny, since he just accused you of the same. I remember this game: "I know you are but what am I?" Been a while.

    Seriously, you contrasted ordinary people as children vis a vis their “sovereigns” (“minor children with respect to their sovereigns”), which really does show a certain peculiar kind of mental blindness.
     
    That was MY analogy, not AM's. If you're going to scold us at least get our respective infractions straight.

    Nico wrote to me:

    That was MY analogy, not AM’s. If you’re going to scold us at least get our respective infractions straight.

    Ah, Nico, you neo-fascists are all the same: why should I be any more careful making distinctions than you guys do?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Nico

    you neo-fascists are all the same: why should I be any more careful making distinctions than you guys do?
     
    You hold yourself to neo-fascist standards? Congratulations.
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  237. @Nico
    So much disingenuity in your posts if you hadn't organized them for me along the various bites of my blurbs you're replying to I wouldn't even know where to begin.

    Well… as a practical matter, yes, they do: it’s called “running away from home.” You never knew any kid who did that? Neither you nor any of your sibs did that? Then you are pretty unusual. Of course, in most cases, an hour or so is long enough for the kid to figure out that it is the kid, not the parents, who have the good deal — i.e., the kid usually chooses to go back home.
     
    That's one heck of a load of obfuscation, equivocation and misapprehension.

    A child "running away from home" in a not-uncommon fit of juvenile outrage at the limitations imposed by their parents' custodianship is not "seceding" from the family in any manner which would be de facto or de jure recognized by any sane adult (though our magistrates in the West are increasingly less and less sane, to the point where one does wonder, as did Barbara Olson, when children will get the right to sue their parents over taking out the trash). If by some chance such children do not return on their own initiative, then if and when they are discovered by competent authorities they will in normal circumstances be returned to their parents, regardless of whether they ask to be returned. You might as well say that there is a "right" to steal because some people happen to do so. No, minor children have NO right to secede from their families on their own volition, and court-ordered seizure or emancipation is (for the time being) the exception, not the rule.

    You undercut your own case: what you are describing is the obvious fact that parents do have the right to separate from their adult children.
     
    It doesn't undercut anything. In the analogy I provided, the parents are likened to the sovereign (in this case, the Spanish crown and the state which is coterminous with the crown) and the children to the subjects. My point was that even children who are able (only after the attainment of the majority, NDLR) to refuse to honor their parents do not necessarily escape without punishment. Furthermore, just as parents do not need to cut off a part of their *material* estate to send rebellious children on their way, I see no obligation for a sovereign to allow disrespectful subjects (in this case, Catalan independentists) to take part of his land with them. (Traditionally rebellion was punished by exile or death.)

    Moreover, there are often legal limits to the extent to and circumstances in which parents may disinherit children, and in some countries individuals have a statutory duty to feed and shelter their major ascendants and descendants in times of need.

    Why on earth would Quebeckers want to remain part of the NATO boondoggle? Because the USSR was going to invade up the St. Lawrence???
     
    See AM's point on herd immunity. Another threat would be the risk of land-grabbers from surrounding Canadian provinces deciding to encroach on Québécois territory if the restraints imposed by the centralized defense arrangement in North America. Either way, Québec would benefit from the deterrent afforded by living next to powerful neighbors without pouring much in on its own, as is currently the case for all of Canada with respect to the U.S. (see War Plan Crimson).

    It is a “stretch” for you to view adult human beings as adults??
     
    You are equivocating back and forth between analogies and literal categories. It is a stretch for me to consider the analogy of parents/adult children to the Spanish crown/Catalan subjects as more befitting than the analogy of parents/minor children. Yes, putting aside for a moment the conduct of the Spanish government and national police force, I consider the present political behavior of the Catalan separatists to be immature and ill-brained.

    I hope, Nico, that you are living in an appropriate institution and not allowed to freely walk the streets.
     
    If you really are that afraid, then just remember that nobody can force you, as an adult, to leave the safety of your home for the wild jungle of the streets.

    One more:

    Productive people tend to be Lockeans. Filmerite = parasite.
     
    If saying so could make it so, Caitlyn Jenner would have a penis and I would be the King of France.

    Nico wrote to me:

    If you really are that afraid, then just remember that nobody can force you, as an adult, to leave the safety of your home for the wild jungle of the streets.

    No, Nico, I am not afraid of you. Your form of insanity is probably harmless — except to yourself. Best for your own safety if you are confined, I suspect.

    Someone who takes Filmer seriously in 2017 is a wee bit off, mentally, wouldn’t you say?

    Read More
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  238. @Nico
    So much disingenuity in your posts if you hadn't organized them for me along the various bites of my blurbs you're replying to I wouldn't even know where to begin.

    Well… as a practical matter, yes, they do: it’s called “running away from home.” You never knew any kid who did that? Neither you nor any of your sibs did that? Then you are pretty unusual. Of course, in most cases, an hour or so is long enough for the kid to figure out that it is the kid, not the parents, who have the good deal — i.e., the kid usually chooses to go back home.
     
    That's one heck of a load of obfuscation, equivocation and misapprehension.

    A child "running away from home" in a not-uncommon fit of juvenile outrage at the limitations imposed by their parents' custodianship is not "seceding" from the family in any manner which would be de facto or de jure recognized by any sane adult (though our magistrates in the West are increasingly less and less sane, to the point where one does wonder, as did Barbara Olson, when children will get the right to sue their parents over taking out the trash). If by some chance such children do not return on their own initiative, then if and when they are discovered by competent authorities they will in normal circumstances be returned to their parents, regardless of whether they ask to be returned. You might as well say that there is a "right" to steal because some people happen to do so. No, minor children have NO right to secede from their families on their own volition, and court-ordered seizure or emancipation is (for the time being) the exception, not the rule.

    You undercut your own case: what you are describing is the obvious fact that parents do have the right to separate from their adult children.
     
    It doesn't undercut anything. In the analogy I provided, the parents are likened to the sovereign (in this case, the Spanish crown and the state which is coterminous with the crown) and the children to the subjects. My point was that even children who are able (only after the attainment of the majority, NDLR) to refuse to honor their parents do not necessarily escape without punishment. Furthermore, just as parents do not need to cut off a part of their *material* estate to send rebellious children on their way, I see no obligation for a sovereign to allow disrespectful subjects (in this case, Catalan independentists) to take part of his land with them. (Traditionally rebellion was punished by exile or death.)

    Moreover, there are often legal limits to the extent to and circumstances in which parents may disinherit children, and in some countries individuals have a statutory duty to feed and shelter their major ascendants and descendants in times of need.

    Why on earth would Quebeckers want to remain part of the NATO boondoggle? Because the USSR was going to invade up the St. Lawrence???
     
    See AM's point on herd immunity. Another threat would be the risk of land-grabbers from surrounding Canadian provinces deciding to encroach on Québécois territory if the restraints imposed by the centralized defense arrangement in North America. Either way, Québec would benefit from the deterrent afforded by living next to powerful neighbors without pouring much in on its own, as is currently the case for all of Canada with respect to the U.S. (see War Plan Crimson).

    It is a “stretch” for you to view adult human beings as adults??
     
    You are equivocating back and forth between analogies and literal categories. It is a stretch for me to consider the analogy of parents/adult children to the Spanish crown/Catalan subjects as more befitting than the analogy of parents/minor children. Yes, putting aside for a moment the conduct of the Spanish government and national police force, I consider the present political behavior of the Catalan separatists to be immature and ill-brained.

    I hope, Nico, that you are living in an appropriate institution and not allowed to freely walk the streets.
     
    If you really are that afraid, then just remember that nobody can force you, as an adult, to leave the safety of your home for the wild jungle of the streets.

    One more:

    Productive people tend to be Lockeans. Filmerite = parasite.
     
    If saying so could make it so, Caitlyn Jenner would have a penis and I would be the King of France.

    Nico wrote to me:

    In the analogy I provided, the parents are likened to the sovereign (in this case, the Spanish crown and the state which is coterminous with the crown) and the children to the subjects. My point was that even children who are able (only after the attainment of the majority, NDLR) to refuse to honor their parents do not necessarily escape without punishment.

    Oh, your analogy is clear enough. But my point is that what you call “punishment” is simply the parents cutting off contact with the kids: i.e., exactly the same thing the Catalans want to do vis a vis Madrid.

    By all means, let the parents cut off their adult kids, and let the Catalans cut off Madrid. Let any adult cut off relations with any other adults he or she chooses.

    Laissez faire et laissez passer; le monde va de lui même.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Nico

    Someone who takes Filmer seriously in 2017 is a wee bit off, mentally, wouldn’t you say?
     
    No, I wouldn't, though I would suggest that someone who thinks such great Anglo-American political architects as Thoreau will long have any de facto relevance to life in the emerging mestizo-Hindu-Sinic hodgepodge with nuclear weapons in the territory of what we call "The United States" lives in the state we call "Denial."

    But hey, what would a crazy neo-fascist like myself know? Best of luck in LaLaLand to ya.

    But my point is that what you call “punishment” is simply the parents cutting off contact with the kids
     
    The increasing number of Western offspring who cannot make ends meet before 25 or 27 or hope to own property without an advance on inheritance long after that belie the notion that such cutting off is a punishment worthy of scare quotes.
    , @Anon
    Because otherwise you make yourself sound like an idiot.
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  239. Nico says:
    @PhysicistDave
    Nico wrote to me:

    In the analogy I provided, the parents are likened to the sovereign (in this case, the Spanish crown and the state which is coterminous with the crown) and the children to the subjects. My point was that even children who are able (only after the attainment of the majority, NDLR) to refuse to honor their parents do not necessarily escape without punishment.
     
    Oh, your analogy is clear enough. But my point is that what you call "punishment" is simply the parents cutting off contact with the kids: i.e., exactly the same thing the Catalans want to do vis a vis Madrid.

    By all means, let the parents cut off their adult kids, and let the Catalans cut off Madrid. Let any adult cut off relations with any other adults he or she chooses.

    Laissez faire et laissez passer; le monde va de lui même.

    Someone who takes Filmer seriously in 2017 is a wee bit off, mentally, wouldn’t you say?

    No, I wouldn’t, though I would suggest that someone who thinks such great Anglo-American political architects as Thoreau will long have any de facto relevance to life in the emerging mestizo-Hindu-Sinic hodgepodge with nuclear weapons in the territory of what we call “The United States” lives in the state we call “Denial.”

    But hey, what would a crazy neo-fascist like myself know? Best of luck in LaLaLand to ya.

    But my point is that what you call “punishment” is simply the parents cutting off contact with the kids

    The increasing number of Western offspring who cannot make ends meet before 25 or 27 or hope to own property without an advance on inheritance long after that belie the notion that such cutting off is a punishment worthy of scare quotes.

    Read More
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  240. Nico says:
    @PhysicistDave
    Nico wrote to me:

    That was MY analogy, not AM’s. If you’re going to scold us at least get our respective infractions straight.
     
    Ah, Nico, you neo-fascists are all the same: why should I be any more careful making distinctions than you guys do?

    you neo-fascists are all the same: why should I be any more careful making distinctions than you guys do?

    You hold yourself to neo-fascist standards? Congratulations.

    Read More
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  241. Art says:
    @Miro23

    Switzerland has the best government system on the planet.

    A weak central government – strong local government – everyone is armed – everyone must vote.

    They speak four different languages – but people identify with their local city – not their race or tribe.

    This is a powerful arrangement because the local community provides most of what is require to sustain life. In this way local people have voting power over their lives.
     
    That's how I see it, and to my mind, the principal components are 1) mostly local taxation and spending (small federal role), and 2) obligatory individual political participation.

    The downside (as the Swiss admit) is that the process is slow, expensive and often frustrating.

    As Kenrick Jones says, in his excellent (but virtually unknown) little book, the guiding principle is "Subsidiarity", where power is devolved down to the smallest viable unit that can support it, "... each Commune has as much power as it can usefully exploit." M. Kyburz, Mayor of the Commune of Carouge and Lord Mayor of the 46 Communes of Geneva.

    Source: Kenrick Jones (a British academic and local politician) https://www.amazon.com/Swiss-Democracy-Mr-Kenrick-Jones/dp/1906791430/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1507003406&sr=8-1&keywords=swiss+democracy%2C+jones . A book which compares the mechanics of British and Swiss Democracy.

    As Kenrick Jones says, in his excellent (but virtually unknown) little book, the guiding principle is “Subsidiarity”, where power is devolved down to the smallest viable unit that can support it,

    Very interesting — I ordered a copy — Thanks!

    The best part is the Swiss have stayed neutral – no wars!

    Think Peace — Art

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  242. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @PhysicistDave
    Nico wrote to me:

    In the analogy I provided, the parents are likened to the sovereign (in this case, the Spanish crown and the state which is coterminous with the crown) and the children to the subjects. My point was that even children who are able (only after the attainment of the majority, NDLR) to refuse to honor their parents do not necessarily escape without punishment.
     
    Oh, your analogy is clear enough. But my point is that what you call "punishment" is simply the parents cutting off contact with the kids: i.e., exactly the same thing the Catalans want to do vis a vis Madrid.

    By all means, let the parents cut off their adult kids, and let the Catalans cut off Madrid. Let any adult cut off relations with any other adults he or she chooses.

    Laissez faire et laissez passer; le monde va de lui même.

    Because otherwise you make yourself sound like an idiot.

    Read More
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  243. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Tsar Nicholas
    @Physcist Dave

    The referendum was declared illegal by the courts under the Spanish Constitution. It was also illegal under the Catalan parliament's own rules which required 90 votes for this to pass, but the measure only garnered 72.

    The point that you missed in my previous post was that all the voting data from all the many elections held in Catalonia in recent years suggests no majority for outright independence. Indeed, most identify with Spain and are happy with the current arrangements whereby Catalonia is a largely self-governing autonomous region.

    I therefore think that you are profoundly in error by characterisng Catalans as cowed victims of a totalitarian regime. It is far more consistent with the evidence to posit that Catalans stayed at home because they didn't identify with the efforts of a troublemaker like Carles Puidgemont to spark off Spanish Civil War II. The same kind of reaction, in other words, as you would have got if Nicola Sturgeon had carried out her empty threat to run an Indyref 2 without sanction of the Westminster Parliament.

    Why should Scotland need British permission to secede from the UK? If the Irish held that attitude their country would still be ruled by Britain.

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  244. Miro23 says:
    @Anon

    Not really, as a non-native Spanish speaker , I can understand written and spoken Catalan with some effort, but Basque is completely unintelligible, something like Welsh for an English speaker.
     
    To what extent can you understand French, Italian, or Sicilian?

    To what extent can you understand French, Italian, or Sicilian?

    I already know French, but understanding Italian a lot more difficult than understanding Catalan. With Catalan I can quite quickly get the whole meaning of a text or conversation, but with Italian I can only understand a few words and phrases and make some guesses.

    So my conclusion is that Catalan is a lot closer to Spanish than it is to Italian, and it meets the conditions of being a dialect. But if political claims could make a language, then Catalan would of course be a language.

    I didn’t know that there was a Sicilain language (?) separate from Italian but I’m not surprised.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Interesting. I'm an American with a slight knowledge of Spanish and I can about half-read Catalan. But then I can also about half-read French. Italian (standard/Tuscan, Neapolitan, etc.) is pretty much a closed book to me.

    Sicilian is indeed separate from standard Italian-- I think it's generally classed as a separate language. I have heard that southern Italian dialects are somewhat closer to Spanish than standard Italian which is essentially the Tuscan dialect, but I don't really know much about that.
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  245. EdwardM says:
    @Jack D
    Speaking of independence, now would be a really great time to give Puerto Rico independence. It could be a "Nixon goes to China" moment for Trump. We could even give them a few billion as a goodbye present. Of course, Puerto Ricans would no longer be US citizens or have right of residence in the US, but that's a natural consequence of having your own country.

    I’ve never understood why this isn’t in every Republican platform. It seems like a no-brainer. Isn’t colonialism bad? Shouldn’t we let the noble people of Puerto Rico remove the yoke of their white oppressors?

    Le them establish their own currency and laws (or keep the dollar without requiring action from us, like Ecuador, though I would assume they’d want their own currency to improve their competitiveness) and join NAFTA. And we keep our military base like in Cuba (whoops, we already abandoned that). As painful as it would be, I might even be willing to accept some sort of cash compensation in the form of debt relief or purchase. Not that we need to — we could just as easily grant them independence unilaterally and tell them to pound sand.

    The fact that the left typically doesn’t advocate PR independence seems like yet another example of their hypocrisy — self-determination and anti-colonialism are human rights, except when it means abandoning the massive welfare teat.

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    • Replies: @Nico

    I’ve never understood why [Puerto Rican independence] isn’t in every Republican platform.
     
    Because "natural conservatives," dontcha know?
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  246. Nico says:
    @EdwardM
    I've never understood why this isn't in every Republican platform. It seems like a no-brainer. Isn't colonialism bad? Shouldn't we let the noble people of Puerto Rico remove the yoke of their white oppressors?

    Le them establish their own currency and laws (or keep the dollar without requiring action from us, like Ecuador, though I would assume they'd want their own currency to improve their competitiveness) and join NAFTA. And we keep our military base like in Cuba (whoops, we already abandoned that). As painful as it would be, I might even be willing to accept some sort of cash compensation in the form of debt relief or purchase. Not that we need to -- we could just as easily grant them independence unilaterally and tell them to pound sand.

    The fact that the left typically doesn't advocate PR independence seems like yet another example of their hypocrisy -- self-determination and anti-colonialism are human rights, except when it means abandoning the massive welfare teat.

    I’ve never understood why [Puerto Rican independence] isn’t in every Republican platform.

    Because “natural conservatives,” dontcha know?

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  247. RobertTS says:
    @theo the kraut
    Interesting post, just to make sure though I guess you know it, the Catalan nationalists imported around 360.000 Moroccans and 60.000 Pakistanis(!) to aid with their voting endeavours, to teach their children Catalan and fend off the non-Catalan speaking (and unwilling to learn it) Latino immigrants.

    OT--Austria, social democrats hire extra shady Israeli spin doctor to paint their opponents as crazy right wing and to sow discord and confusion. Austrian politics traditionally have been seen as a tad Balkanian-Byzantine in Germany, though as of late we're quite good at that, too. The spin doctor has been jailed in Israel by now.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-austria-election/top-austrian-social-democrat-steps-down-over-election-smear-campaign-idUSKCN1C50PG

    The spin doctor, Tal Silberstein, seems to have been involved in funny doings during the the 2002 Bolivian presidential election:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Brand_Is_Crisis_(2005_film)

    See also https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.806828

    “Madrid Ens Roba” (Madrid robs us) has long been a clarion call of Catalan seperatists (and even regionalists who don’t want outright independence).

    It started as a right-wing, quasi-libertarian gripe among the business-oriented Catalan elite, but even got picked up by the leftward open-borders catlady type elements among the separatists such that resentment at having to subsidise supposedly idle Andalusians doesn’t extend to subsidising hordes of Moroccans, Somalis and Pakistanis (bonus virtue points for admitting Muslims as a rebuke to Christian Spain – even though the Catalans were just as enthusiastic participants in the Reconquista).

    But then such dissonance will probably become increasingly commonplace across a host of secessionist movements that veer leftwards and display a cultural disdain for their lessers in the badlands: Californians will scorn backward Arkansas and subsidise Guatemalans to prove the point.

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    • Agree: theo the kraut
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  248. Syagrius says:
    @Andrew
    @Steve Sailer

    "Romance languages tended to emerge out of imperial Latin"

    This is exactly backwards. Latin was never a universal language in the Empire spoken by the majority rustic population in rural areas. The only area it would predominate was in the new Roman towns and military encampments (often these were the same thing).

    Rather, the rustic peasant tongues were in the main slowly creolized by Romanization and out of the Romanization of each underlying peasant language came the local Romance language or dialect.

    The Gallic languages of Gaul and Iberia, northern Italy, and Croatia were rather closer to Latin than is generally credited, and French, Occitan, Catalonian, Castilian, Galician, Portugese, Romansch, Lombardese, Venetian, Arumanian, and Dalmatian are the result.

    The Castilian-Catalonian divide goes back very far in time, just like the Franco-Occitan divide, and is the difference between the Gallo-Basque native population in northern/western Iberia and the Greco-Med population in southern/eastern Iberia. It was already present in pre-Roman times in Spain.

    https://www.quora.com/How-distinct-were-Iberian-tribes-living-in-Spain-and-Portugal-before-Roman-conquest

    The same mistake is made in thinking that all Indo-European tongues go back to a single original language spoken by all, instead of realizing that Indo-European steppe invaders caused the creolization of the existing local languages into Indo-Europeanized tongues, and that the pre-existing gross difference between the major groups - German, Romance, Slavic, Gallic, Iranian, Indian, Illyrian, Greek, Anatolian, Armenian, etc. goes back to underlying ethnic distinctions in population existing before the invasions.

    This is startling and new to me. It reverses more than a century of romance linguistics, which always start with the assumption that popular, or vulgar, Latin, is the foundation of the national and regional languages we know today as the ‘romance languages’. Making that assumption, it is (relatively) easy to describe the local variations that produced the closely-related vernaculars which became national languages distinct from Latin.

    Your competing thesis makes sense – and only makes sense – if we assume that the speakers in areas as far-flung as Romania and Portugal, all of Italy, most of modern France, as well as all the chief western Mediterranean islands, spoke very closely related dialects in the pre-Roman period. This assumption is absolutely vital, if we are to make sense of the remarkable similarity of the chief ‘latinate’ languages of our time – Spanish, French, Italian, Portuguese: A similarity far more obvious and striking than the languages grouped together under ‘Chinese’, for instance.

    An artificial language such as Interlingua is only possible because it accepts the pattern of romance languages, irons out the irregular verbs and regional idioms, and presents a “cleaned-up” romance speech that would hardly be possible if the family of languages it represents were merely distinct, home-grown languages with a latin overlay.

    No; they are latinate in their core: It’s also why English, in spite of its enormous freight of latin and romance words, enjoys little mutual intelligibility with French, Spanish, or (to recall the topic of the thread) Catalan.

    If Roman rule, with its linguistic element, were merely a ‘patina’ cast over the local languages, then two very difficult questions must be answered:

    (1) Why did ancient Romania, ‘Dacia’ as it was called by Trajan and his successors, end up not merely a romance-language region, but the only one that retains some of the old Latin case system, despite being almost the last to enter, and the first to leave, the Roman system?

    (2) Why did Britain, despite belonging to the Empire for 400 years, show almost no linguistic influence from Latin? Had it not been for Hadrian’s wall you’d hardly know the Romans had been there at all.

    No one thinks, of course, that ‘vulgar’ Latin is some kind of deterioration of the language of (say) Cicero. Cicero himself wrote and perhaps even spoke a form of Latin that would have been obscure to his own humble neighbors. The Latin studied in schools – even in the late republic – was not the language of the streets or the countryside. It was a composite, formulated language, much as France imposed on its rural subjects (look at a country churchyard in southern France, and the graves pre-1914 are as often as not inscribed in Occitan, or even Basque). That said, the rise of the grammarians (Quintilian being an obvious example) corresponds to the rise of ‘Romanization’ and the formulation of an imperial policy designed to make provincials think of themselves as ‘Roman’ in a broader, cosmopolitan sense.

    I opine that the Romans were less like the Ottomans (who collected tribute and let things go at that) and more like the Russians, the French, the Americans: They were bent on building a vast super-state with a common language, culture and religion: They inherited Greek ideas of state and society and (albeit hamfistedly) tried for awhile to create a “universal system”. The linguistic evidence is only part of it – but it is a huge part.

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  249. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Miro23

    To what extent can you understand French, Italian, or Sicilian?
     
    I already know French, but understanding Italian a lot more difficult than understanding Catalan. With Catalan I can quite quickly get the whole meaning of a text or conversation, but with Italian I can only understand a few words and phrases and make some guesses.

    So my conclusion is that Catalan is a lot closer to Spanish than it is to Italian, and it meets the conditions of being a dialect. But if political claims could make a language, then Catalan would of course be a language.

    I didn't know that there was a Sicilain language (?) separate from Italian but I'm not surprised.

    Interesting. I’m an American with a slight knowledge of Spanish and I can about half-read Catalan. But then I can also about half-read French. Italian (standard/Tuscan, Neapolitan, etc.) is pretty much a closed book to me.

    Sicilian is indeed separate from standard Italian– I think it’s generally classed as a separate language. I have heard that southern Italian dialects are somewhat closer to Spanish than standard Italian which is essentially the Tuscan dialect, but I don’t really know much about that.

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  250. Meimou says: • Website

    Speaking for myself, yes.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Yes, what?
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  251. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Meimou
    Speaking for myself, yes.

    Yes, what?

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