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From Medium:

Can a Dress Shirt Be Racist?

by Moises Velasquez-Manoff

A startup finds that asking for certain data improves the fit of its clothes — and lands the company in a cultural minefield.

In 2008, an entrepreneur named Seph Skerritt was frustrated with the way he shopped for clothes. Then a student at MIT’s Sloan School of Management, he chafed at the time wasted while trying on garments in stores. Often, he thought, you settled on an ill-fitting item just to get the drudgery over with.

While on an internship in Asia, Skerritt had encountered the effortless magic of having a tailor custom-fit your shirt. Why not improve on that concept, he wondered, with an online service that fitted your shirts by asking you questions, and then mailed you the garments?

He christened his company Proper Cloth. Naysayers told him that when customers input their measurements, they often made mistakes — the idea wouldn’t scale. But Skerritt thought that guessing, even if one’s guesses were occasionally off, was still preferable to the chaos and disappointment experienced in a physical store.

So he set about developing an algorithm that could customize your shirt without needing a tape measure. …

He noticed an odd pattern. In that first batch of 30, the shirts fit best on testers who were Caucasians. They seemed to fit worse, in a predictable way, on people who weren’t Caucasian. All subjects of one ancestry — Asian, say — seemed to require the same general alterations. Skerritt noted the anomaly and added a question on what he called “ethnicity”: Asian, Black, Caucasian, Hispanic, or “I’m not sure.” The question, Skerritt says, has proven invaluable to sizing his customers’ shirts.

There’s no denying the satisfaction of a smartly tailored shirt. But with this one question, the once mundane world of dress shirts is now dabbling in a kind of racial profiling. Are we ready to dredge up centuries of racial strife, simply for a perfect fit?

I bet you have two warring opinions of this web site’s “ethnicity” question. One is that we humans have a long history of buying clothes without explicitly considering our ancestry, so this innovation sounds, if not racist, at least racially inappropriate. The other is that, well, maybe our body types do differ by race — and just accepting this reality frees us from having to wrestle with the Caucasian body proportions that dominate most clothing design.

So here’s my question: With the “ethnicity” question, is this entrepreneur courageously addressing the proposition that we’re different according to our ancestry, and propelling us toward a post-racial future? Or is he pretending to be scientific as a marketing gimmick, while actually enforcing false, outdated and possibly dangerous ideas about race?

If these ideas are false, why do they work?

But from the moment he heard about the shoes, Alan Goodman, a biological anthropologist at Hampshire College in Amherst, Mass., suspected that Nike’s science was weak. …

When I asked about Proper Cloth’s “ethnicity” question, Goodman had this to say: “Calling groups white or black is a pre-Darwinian view of biology that does not fit the facts of human variation.” Other anthropologists I spoke to also roundly denounced the question. Race, they say, is a social construct.

Professor Goodman once memorably proclaimed:

“[Race] doesn’t exist biologically, but it does exist socially… Culturally I’m white-ified. People see me as white. That has something to do with how I look, but it has nothing to do with biological variation.”

Back to Medium:

Here’s what they mean: if you were to travel across the Eurasian continent from Portugal to Japan, say, there would be no river, forest or discrete boundary where people suddenly started looking “Asian” (or “European” if you traveled from east to west). Instead, changes in physical appearance would occur so gradually and imperceptibly that you probably wouldn’t notice. You’d only be aware that, once in Japan, people definitely looked different than in Portugal.

The assertion is that the traits we associate with “race” — hair color and texture, skin pigmentation, epicanthic eye folds and whatever else — actually occur in gradients throughout the human family, not clean breaks. So much variation occurs within what we call “races” that to ascribe any particular traits to a certain race is, anthropologists say, misguided.

Roads Not Taken LargerDr. Goodman’s example of walking from Portugal to Japan is worth considering. But it can be misleading for several reasons:

First, before 1492, many other transcontinental walks couldn’t be done at all because oceans got in the way. For example, it’s only 1600 miles from West Africa to Brazil, much closer than Portugal and Japan. But before 1492, the only way to get there was to travel all the way around the world the opposite direction, crossing, presumably, the Bering Straits. So, gene flow from West Africa to Brazil and vice-versa had been extraordinarily minimal for tens of thousands of years.

The above map that I created in 2005 lists 14 potential ways that continental-scale races could have mixed before 1492 but almost never actually did. For example, Australian Aborigines and South American Indians might have mated due to, say, shipwreck survivors floating all the way across the Pacific. But there’s not much evidence this ever happened. Europeans and North American natives conceivably might have interbred in Vinland or Greenland, but there’s not much evidence in genomic studies of this having noticeable impact.

We do know that prehistoric East Asians made it all the way to Madagascar off the coast of East Africa, where they left a substantial genetic imprint, and perhaps left some minor genetic imprint on the mainland of Africa. But, in general, outside of Madagascar, sub-Saharan Africans and East Asians were quite distinct in 1492.

Other routes on my map are ones that did exist pre-1492, such as over the Himalayas from South Asia to East Asia, but were difficult enough to restrain the scale of intermarriage.

Second, if you actually did walk from Portugal to Japan, you’d observe several breaks so that it would hardly be a smooth gradient of change. For example, a route through Nepal and Tibet would lead you through a sharp racial divide in the foothills of the Himalayas at about a mile elevation, the dividing line for the danger of malaria. Above that elevation tend to be East Asians, such as the Sherpas, who are better adapted to high elevations and don’t like venturing into the malarial lowlands. Below that elevation tend to be people with broadly Caucasian features.

Third, a more northerly route would lead you through areas of a certain level of gradient, such as the Eurasian steppe, but the population isn’t dense compared to Europe and East Asia.

Fourth, the United States is largely populated by peoples from the opposite ends of the world — e.g., Western Europeans, Eastern Asians, West Africans, and so forth — rather than by Uighurs and Hazaras from Central Asia. A better criticism of the now-dominant American view of race is that more subtle Old World racial distinctions are increasingly lost as everybody else bows down to America’s rather cryde black-white-red-yellow ancestral mindset.

Before we slam down the gavel on Proper Cloth, though, a quick story: I’m lanky, with long arms, long legs and a decidedly short torso. I can be the same height as someone standing but when I sit, they tower over me.

Some years back, I found myself in Seoul, South Korea, perusing dress jackets in a department store. As I tried them on, I discovered that all the sleeves were several inches too short for my lanky arms. I am not (to my knowledge) Asian. Apparently, in Seoul, my body type was an extreme outlier.

So let’s look at the situation as Proper Cloth might: If that Korean department store had had a “western” section full of jackets sized more like those I might find in New York City, would that really be so bad?

When I related the tale to Goodman and asked if what I’d perceived was real — that I had an unusual body for Seoul — he said, “Yeah, that’s real, man. But Koreans are not a race. And you’re not a race. You’re an individual variant who happens to have long arms.”

People used to try to act more sophisticated by demonstrating their greater knowledge. Today, people try for higher status by offering sophistry about why Knowledge Can’t Exist.

Read the whole thing there. Lots more of interest …

 
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  1. From the title, I thought the post was going to be about cultural approbation – as in poor blonde kid with dreadlocks being assaulted by a black girl

  2. “[Race] doesn’t exist biologically, but it does exist socially… Culturally I’m white-ified. People see me as white. That has something to do with how I look, but it has nothing to do with biological variation.”

    Look where he lives “Alan Goodman, a biological anthropologist at Hampshire College in Amherst, Mass”. A rural enough whitetopia. Sure there are some NAMs going to UMass and agricultural workers out there but I am sure his neighborhood has none and the local public schools are just fine for his children which is a great money saver. Plus I kinda remember that professors children can get discounted tuitions in Western Massachusetts at some of the colleges that cooperate this way.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Clyde, Funny thing about race not existing, on the print out for my new prescription medicine it states that side effects and reactions ...well here is the line: "Caution is advised when using this medicine in Asian patients because the risk of side effects may be increased in these patients." Must be some social construct that causes this risk, but wait isn't sickle cell found almost exclusively in blacks and Mediterranean Anemia in , well people from that region around the Mediterranean Sea. Must be something to do with how they look.
    , @Ganderson
    Clyde- I broadly agree with your observation, however the neighborhood where Hampshire is is more vibrant than you'd imagine -there's a housing project just north of the golf course which is just north of the campus. Ditto the public schools, which have an active and noisy BLM contingent. Goodman is nothing if not consistent- he's been pounding the "race is a social construct" idea for at least 25 years. The Hampshire faculty, as a group, makes the typical university faculty look like the Murray Rothbard Appreciation Society
    , @Luke Lea

    Look where he lives “Alan Goodman, a biological anthropologist at Hampshire College in Amherst, Mass”
     
    A place where race doesn't exist. Liberals don't believe in segregation. They practice it.
  3. Are we ready to dredge up centuries of racial strife, simply for a perfect fit?

    Yes.

  4. Here’s what they mean: if you were to travel across the Eurasian continent from Portugal to Japan, say, there would be no river, forest or discrete boundary where people suddenly started looking “Asian” (or “European” if you traveled from east to west). Instead, changes in physical appearance would occur so gradually and imperceptibly that you probably wouldn’t notice. You’d only be aware that, once in Japan, people definitely looked different than in Portugal.

    The assertion is that the traits we associate with “race” — hair color and texture, skin pigmentation, epicanthic eye folds and whatever else — actually occur in gradients throughout the human family, not clean breaks. So much variation occurs within what we call “races” that to ascribe any particular traits to a certain race is, anthropologists say, misguided.

    So, only Platonic distinctions count? Fuzzy borders not allowed?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Was Plato a full-blown Platonist? He used to talk about science being about carving nature at the joints. It turns out that some oceans, the Sahara Desert, and the Himalayas serve as joints.
    , @Eric Novak
    Those Platonic distinctions among the diverse peoples of the Central Asian steppe were blurred not by unpredictable, chaotic, unevolutionary genetic shifts imagined by pseudo-academics, but by the relentless waves of Mongols raping and pillaging for decades, beginning with Ghengis Khan.
    , @Luke Lea

    if you were to travel across the Eurasian continent from Portugal to Japan, say,
     
    I once made that jaunt, fifty years ago when you could do it without getting killed. When I went over the Khyber Pass from Afghanistan to Pakistan I thought I was on another planet.
  5. There are ideas, true and false, that cannot be aired publicly in America without placing yourself beyond the pale of intellectual discussion. These ideas are more often anathematized than argued against.

    I wonder if our esteemed host would be interested in hosting an Index of Heresies.

    I compiled this list, but I’m sure that there are some that I have not noticed. Obviously, some of these contradict others, but all of the ideas, if expressed, will run you out of polite society. This has gone on long enough that impolite society is now a sizable political force.

    US has too many Mexicans
    US has too many Muslims
    There is something wrong with gay people.
    There is something wrong with transgender people.
    Blacks on average are less intelligent than whites.
    Blacks are subhuman near-animals.
    God created man and woman, separate from the animal kingdom, and has particular views about sexual morality.
    Evolution did not stop with the Neolithic Revolution, and there are significant biological differences between racial groups.
    Jews have too much power.
    There is a Jewish conspiracy to bring down white/Western/Christian civilization
    The Geneva Conventions are too restrictive, and the US would be better off going back to the practices of Sherman and Sheridan and Truman and LeMay.
    Our criminal justice system, on the whole, produced more order and more justice in 1950 than it does today.
    Slavery had benefits for black slaves.
    Free trade will not make most Americans better off.
    Women are not particularly rational beings, following instead their genetic programming to seek the seed of the kind of uncaring asshole who would succeed in a state of nature.
    The common law jury trial system is a bad system, neither reliably identifying the guilty nor safeguarding the innocent.
    The American creed of racial equality, encoded in the Declaration of Independence, is fundamentally mistaken.

    Things that are not heresies
    Anything about foreign policy. You can be Noam Chomsky on US foreign policy, or Paul Wolfowitz, or Ted Cruz and call for carpet bombing ISIS; and your ideas will still be analyzed, debated and attacked and defended as ideas with merits and demerits–not rejected as the ravings of a nonperson.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    With what would you suggest replacing the common law jury trial system?
    , @Harry Baldwin
    Anything about foreign policy? How about the US should be neutral between Israel and its Arab neighbors? How about it was a mistake to undermine the white-minority governments of Rhodesia and South Africa? How about that colonialism was, in many cases, a benefit for those colonized?
    , @Former Darfur
    The common law system of jury trial is less accurate than, say, military courts-martial. Even judge trials where the right to a jury is waived are probably more accurate so long as the judge in question has no special animus against the defendant. Juries are, for a variety of reasons, not especially accurate, because they are wholly untrained and tend to go along with the most imposing or domineering person or small subgroup within the jury.

    Most people, if they serve on a jury, do so once in their lives. The prosecutor, the judge, and the defense counsel have experienced hundreds or thousands of trials and know what typically happens and doesn't happen. Also, on average, the average judge, prosecutor, and defense attorney are more intelligent than most members of the average jury, both because attorneys on average are smarter than the general public and also because, like pregnancy, jury duty is more deftly avoided by smarter people.

    The real reason to support the jury system is the one reason lawyers detest: the possibility the jury may nullify the law by refusing to convict when it reasonably believes the accused is factually guilty. This also relates to the United States' traditional refusal to tolerate "the truth is no defense" laws. You could yell fire in a crowded theater if the theater was in fact on fire, and you could call a woman a whore-be she a scullery maid or First Lady (indeed, even President!) of the United States-if you could prove she had sex for money. By contrast, under the doctrine of seditious libel, still the law in most of the Anglosphere today, to say a defamatory thing against an official was a crime, even if it was true and you could prove it.

    Juries have the unquestioned power to return a not guilty verdict for any reason, including their disagreement with the law, their believing that the law, otherwise good, is inappropriate for the case in question, or their belief that the likely punishment would be excessive. However, there is the legal fiction that while they may have the power, they do not have the right. Nonetheless, jury nullification is an important check on judicial power and law enforcement mischief in the real world.
    , @Luke Lea

    Blacks are subhuman near-animals.
     
    Wha? People like you give people like Steve Sailer a bad name.
  6. People used to try to act more sophisticated by demonstrating their greater knowledge. Today, people try for higher status by offering sophistry about why Knowledge Can’t Exist.

    Some profs are like the cocaine dealers who sample too much of their product. But many others just do what they gotta do to keep a sweet gig. It must be torture for a young, unsullied grad student to toe the party line so he can advance up the academic food chain. And we put down the USSR’s Lysenkoism! Just a bunch of dumb Russians from the 1930s!

  7. @syonredux

    Here’s what they mean: if you were to travel across the Eurasian continent from Portugal to Japan, say, there would be no river, forest or discrete boundary where people suddenly started looking “Asian” (or “European” if you traveled from east to west). Instead, changes in physical appearance would occur so gradually and imperceptibly that you probably wouldn’t notice. You’d only be aware that, once in Japan, people definitely looked different than in Portugal.

    The assertion is that the traits we associate with “race” — hair color and texture, skin pigmentation, epicanthic eye folds and whatever else — actually occur in gradients throughout the human family, not clean breaks. So much variation occurs within what we call “races” that to ascribe any particular traits to a certain race is, anthropologists say, misguided.
     
    So, only Platonic distinctions count? Fuzzy borders not allowed?

    Was Plato a full-blown Platonist? He used to talk about science being about carving nature at the joints. It turns out that some oceans, the Sahara Desert, and the Himalayas serve as joints.

  8. A lot of effort has been put into making simple but unfashionable ideas too daunting for the average person to think about, but it’s always the same technique: dishonesty about scope, ie pretending not to know what the phrase “on the whole” means.

    I saw a dog with three legs once, so “dogs have for legs” is meaningless.

    The 21st century addition is that when you need to opposite mechanic, ie a generalization, you just use emotions and there ya go, the perfectly unassailable Fortress of Bullshit.

  9. Are we ready to dredge up centuries of racial strife, simply for a perfect fit?

    Of course, we still HAVE racial strife, and plenty of it. Mr. Moises Velasquez-Manoff (((??))) simply ignores the fact that racial strife is now largely pointed in one direction: from everyone else toward whites, with little or nothing coming back the other way.

    Well that’s one response to his statement. The other is… give me a freaking break.

  10. In general, men’s clothing sizes don’t fit guys with huge butts and wide legs. It becomes very tedious and annoying to try to find pants if you have that body type.

    I have seen some brothers (and sisters) with the same problem. When will the racist fashion designers address us?

    • Replies: @415 reasons
    I have this problem and I stopped even trying to find stuff that fits off the shelf. I just buy jeans that fit in the waist online and have the legs hemmed as soon as I get them.
  11. There is no such thing as a race in terms of being able to absolutely delineate the boundaries of a race,but it is generally true that black men and women have broader shoulders and smaller calves (not always, but generally), different shaped buttocks, and so on, so if people describe themselves as black, white, or Asian, it is likely that after making adjustments for age and body mass index, you might be able to make clothes that fit more people better.

    If you go to the Caribbean, you will see that mannekins in store windows have more protruding buttocks than they do on the mainland US, and this is probably because the average customer there has a similar anatomical deviation.

    • Replies: @syonredux

    There is no such thing as a race in terms of being able to absolutely delineate the boundaries of a race,but it is generally true that black men and women have broader shoulders and smaller calves (not always, but generally), different shaped buttocks, and so on, so if people describe themselves as black, white, or Asian, it is likely that after making adjustments for age and body mass index, you might be able to make clothes that fit more people better.
     
    Ian Fleming has a bit in You Only Live Twice where he comments on how the Japanese have absurdly small buttocks.


    If you are into women who are caudally equipped, stay clear of East Asia....
  12. Only my dress-shirt is truly race-ist.

  13. I just bought a cotton sweater at Brooks Brothers in Manchester VT that was labeled, as I recall, “Size L (XL Asian).” I’m sorry I can’t say for sure because I cut the label out so the sweater wouldn’t have that little scrunched spot the ruins the fit around the collar.

    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    I just bought a cotton sweater at Brooks Brothers in Manchester VT that was labeled, as I recall, “Size L (XL Asian).” I’m sorry I can’t say for sure because I cut the label out so the sweater wouldn’t have that little scrunched spot the ruins the fit around the collar.

     

    This kind of labelling by race is pretty common in Asia. I've seen labels that go something like 'Size US M -- European L -- Asian XL'.

    I have little success buying clothes in Asia (I'm 6' 5"). I've never found a Japanese garment other than socks that ever fit. In China I've occasionally found triple or even quadruple-X clothes that did fit.

    In both places, of course, there are outliers who are taller and bigger than I am, especially up in northern China. They must have the very devil of a time finding clothes. I've never seen an Asian version of a 'big and tall' store like in the USA.

  14. @Discordiax
    There are ideas, true and false, that cannot be aired publicly in America without placing yourself beyond the pale of intellectual discussion. These ideas are more often anathematized than argued against.

    I wonder if our esteemed host would be interested in hosting an Index of Heresies.

    I compiled this list, but I'm sure that there are some that I have not noticed. Obviously, some of these contradict others, but all of the ideas, if expressed, will run you out of polite society. This has gone on long enough that impolite society is now a sizable political force.

    US has too many Mexicans
    US has too many Muslims
    There is something wrong with gay people.
    There is something wrong with transgender people.
    Blacks on average are less intelligent than whites.
    Blacks are subhuman near-animals.
    God created man and woman, separate from the animal kingdom, and has particular views about sexual morality.
    Evolution did not stop with the Neolithic Revolution, and there are significant biological differences between racial groups.
    Jews have too much power.
    There is a Jewish conspiracy to bring down white/Western/Christian civilization
    The Geneva Conventions are too restrictive, and the US would be better off going back to the practices of Sherman and Sheridan and Truman and LeMay.
    Our criminal justice system, on the whole, produced more order and more justice in 1950 than it does today.
    Slavery had benefits for black slaves.
    Free trade will not make most Americans better off.
    Women are not particularly rational beings, following instead their genetic programming to seek the seed of the kind of uncaring asshole who would succeed in a state of nature.
    The common law jury trial system is a bad system, neither reliably identifying the guilty nor safeguarding the innocent.
    The American creed of racial equality, encoded in the Declaration of Independence, is fundamentally mistaken.

    Things that are not heresies
    Anything about foreign policy. You can be Noam Chomsky on US foreign policy, or Paul Wolfowitz, or Ted Cruz and call for carpet bombing ISIS; and your ideas will still be analyzed, debated and attacked and defended as ideas with merits and demerits--not rejected as the ravings of a nonperson.

    With what would you suggest replacing the common law jury trial system?

    • Replies: @Discordiax
    My point is not that the jury system is or isn't a bad system. My point is that, if you said so in an open forum, you're counted as a morally deficient person. (I'm not sure this is true, but also not willing to run the experiment.)

    I'm saying that the sanctity of trial by jury is on the list of Things That Are Not Subject to Question.

    I thought it was obvious I don't endorse all of the opinions on the list. But all of the opinions on the list will get you tarred as a morally deficient person by Polite Society, or by the Cathedral, or whatever term you care to use.

  15. @Jonathan Mason
    There is no such thing as a race in terms of being able to absolutely delineate the boundaries of a race,but it is generally true that black men and women have broader shoulders and smaller calves (not always, but generally), different shaped buttocks, and so on, so if people describe themselves as black, white, or Asian, it is likely that after making adjustments for age and body mass index, you might be able to make clothes that fit more people better.

    If you go to the Caribbean, you will see that mannekins in store windows have more protruding buttocks than they do on the mainland US, and this is probably because the average customer there has a similar anatomical deviation.

    There is no such thing as a race in terms of being able to absolutely delineate the boundaries of a race,but it is generally true that black men and women have broader shoulders and smaller calves (not always, but generally), different shaped buttocks, and so on, so if people describe themselves as black, white, or Asian, it is likely that after making adjustments for age and body mass index, you might be able to make clothes that fit more people better.

    Ian Fleming has a bit in You Only Live Twice where he comments on how the Japanese have absurdly small buttocks.

    If you are into women who are caudally equipped, stay clear of East Asia….

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    Ian Fleming lived in Jamaica, so I think I can guess where his tastes lay.
  16. I bet you have two warring opinions of this web site’s “ethnicity” question. One is that we humans have a long history of buying clothes without explicitly considering our ancestry . . . .

    No, we don’t.

  17. Much of what passes for conventional wisdom is simply institutionalized sophistry. Professor Goodman is an “anthropologist” which generally means you can stop reading.

    I remember shopping at a hipster store in Echo Park, Los Angeles, a few years back that only carried Japanese clothing brands. I generally wear American size “Large” shirts, but I am by no means a “big guy”. I was impressed by the clothing, but I looked like Lou Ferrigno turning green in even the XXL sizes. I mentioned to the sales clerk that while I admired the clothing, everything simply ran too small. The clerk sighed, “Yeah, that’s kind of a problem.” The shop was out of business within a year.

    I have noticed that Scandinavian clothing brands seem to fit me extremely well and I generally seek them out whenever I can.

    I have a few Japanese clients and when they visit New York they hilariously and somewhat inappropriately overreact to the size of some of the African Americans they encounter.

  18. Next year’s Best Picture will go to either 12 Years In A Fitting Room, in which Solomon Northup is micro-aggressed by a racially profiling tailor and has to relive the anguish of his slavery, and Django Unfitted, in which Django gorily rights a century of sartorial injustice.

    The good thing is black actors will receive the 100% of Oscar nods they deserve. Other minorities will be snubbed with the customary lack of media interest.

    • Agree: AndrewR
  19. So here’s my question: With the “ethnicity” question, is this entrepreneur courageously addressing the proposition that we’re different according to our ancestry, and propelling us toward a post-racial future? Or is he pretending to be scientific as a marketing gimmick, while actually enforcing false, outdated and possibly dangerous ideas about race?

    Those are two questions, and the answers are “No” and “Hell, no!”

  20. I am about 6’1″ and 180 lbs. In Asia I have to buy XL clothes because Asian L is way too small for me.

  21. Would it definitely be career suicide to say something like “while there does exist a lot of intraracial genetic variation (which can exceed interracial genetic variation for some traits), for many traits there is little intraracial variation and an extreme amount of mean interracial variation”?

    I guess that might depend on the field.

    I used to find anthropology interesting but I would never want to have to live a total lie just to not rock the boat.

  22. The assertion is that the traits we associate with “race” — hair color and texture, skin pigmentation, epicanthic eye folds and whatever else — actually occur in gradients throughout the human family, not clean breaks.

    In the race-denier’s arsenal, there’s little that is stupider than this. It’s the same as saying red and green are indistinguishable.

    • Replies: @Dr. Doom and Gloom
    Exactly. The logical Falacy is sometimes called argument of the beard. How many whiskers make a beard? Is one enough, 2,what about 259? That we cannot make a clear rule doesn't mean there is no distinction between bearded and non bearded,.

    Interestingly, if forced to make distinctions that are too fine, subjects become experimentally neurotic and lose the ability to make distinctions at all. It is literally a mild form of insanity.

  23. Racist bespoke shirts? Well, at least that will eliminate body-shirt mismatches like

  24. I have too good a memory to survive in Oceania. I remember back in the 1960s and 1970s several Negro entrepreneurs made the news when they started clothing lines designed to fit what they described as standard Negro body types. As I remember, these included bigger seats in pants for bigger butts and longer sleeve and trouser lengths. Back then this was forward thinking. I have no idea how well these clothing lines did. I suspect that the design parameters were far less scientific than those presented in the article. Also they were targeting a demographic that is much more concerned with being in fashion than other races. Clothing designed for pure comfort and functionality does not do well within this demographic. I learned this fact from a Jewish haberdasher’s son whose father’s clientele was entirely Negro. He made a good living catering to the annual changes in Negro fashion that he’d learned to predict and respond to over the years.

    • Replies: @James O'Meara
    True that!

    Sammy Davis had a line of clothing for the black posterior, while Eldridge Cleaver had a line of pants with codpieces to accommodate the brothers' outsized tools. Really, it was in Newsweek.
  25. Steve wrote “If these ideas are false, why do they work?”

    Tovarisch Steve, this demonstrates that you have a faulty bourgeois concept of Truth as correspondence with reality. What you should be concerned with is Revolutionary Truth, that which furthers the ends of the revolution. I think reeducation is called for, Tovarisch.

  26. “[Race] doesn’t exist biologically, but it does exist socially… Culturally I’m white-ified. People see me as white. That has something to do with how I look, but it has nothing to do with biological variation.”

    Of course, because skin color is determined by environment, which is why everyone in every country or city has identical skin tones. What a lying sack of shit!

  27. Textbook idiotic question-begging FTA:

    I’d asked Reed how he justified using a fiction (race) to measure reality (body shape). Reed responded that while, yes, race was a social construct…

    No one expects the Goodman Inquisition! …

    But to the end, Goodman remained “highly skeptical.” (…) It was also a challenge to how we’ve all been conditioned to think about race. He was essentially saying, Prove that it exists. And if you can’t or won’t prove it, then stop talking about it. Because without proof, the concept of race, as it pertains to variation in the human family, is too dangerous.

    Regarding the shirts and glasses: The actual measurement guessing game will become obsolete in the (near?) future with body topology scanning. A booth in the mall or a device in your house will generate a 3D once-over that gets sent to the MTM/bespoke retailer.

    Possibly amusing thread involving measurements and the customer is wrong, bitch.

    • Replies: @PatrickH
    If race is a social construct, then so is clothing.
  28. Chinese clothes never fit me properly. Legs were too short, seat too small, sleeves too short, shoulders too narrow, waist too wide etc. But even worse were the haircuts. Asians (in Asia) don’t know how to cut white people’s hair.

    But I have to say that this idea that there’s a gentle gradient from Portugal to Japan is pure BS. I saw guys in Western China who looked very European, with blue eyes, European skull shape and full beards. I don’t know who they were, but they un-ironically wore medieval looking clothes, so they weren’t German tourists.

    I also saw people who looked like Arabs/Jews, with big noses, olive skin and hazel eyes at around 1,500 meters elevation (Salars?). Then down in the valley I’d see people who looked like Han Chinese. At the very top of the hills – 2,500+ meters – were the Tibetans.

    So going from basin to mountaintop you’d see first Chinese, then Semite/Turk/Caucasoid and finally Tibetan. But it was an elevation rather than latitude gradient.

  29. Why not improve on that concept, he wondered, with an online service that fitted your shirts by asking you questions, and then mailed you the garments?

    Those “questions”, I assume, are related to measurements – neck circumference, arm length, girth about about the shoulders and abdomen, etc.

    He noticed an odd pattern. In that first batch of 30, the shirts fit best on testers who were Caucasians.

    So… if my first assumption is correct, then I have to conclude that Caucasians are better at taking measurements than other racial groups. I am a bit surprised that Asians cannot measure as well as woodies.

    • Replies: @Jahangir
    Well, later in the article it's noted that various groups lie about similar things. I imagine Asians inflated their chest and arm circumference measurements.
  30. Story is about two men, one who is observant and actually accomplishes something, the other a worthless would-be pedant whose only achievement besides blather is that people call him ‘professor’.
    I’m curious as to what group got what wrong all the time.

  31. @Discordiax
    There are ideas, true and false, that cannot be aired publicly in America without placing yourself beyond the pale of intellectual discussion. These ideas are more often anathematized than argued against.

    I wonder if our esteemed host would be interested in hosting an Index of Heresies.

    I compiled this list, but I'm sure that there are some that I have not noticed. Obviously, some of these contradict others, but all of the ideas, if expressed, will run you out of polite society. This has gone on long enough that impolite society is now a sizable political force.

    US has too many Mexicans
    US has too many Muslims
    There is something wrong with gay people.
    There is something wrong with transgender people.
    Blacks on average are less intelligent than whites.
    Blacks are subhuman near-animals.
    God created man and woman, separate from the animal kingdom, and has particular views about sexual morality.
    Evolution did not stop with the Neolithic Revolution, and there are significant biological differences between racial groups.
    Jews have too much power.
    There is a Jewish conspiracy to bring down white/Western/Christian civilization
    The Geneva Conventions are too restrictive, and the US would be better off going back to the practices of Sherman and Sheridan and Truman and LeMay.
    Our criminal justice system, on the whole, produced more order and more justice in 1950 than it does today.
    Slavery had benefits for black slaves.
    Free trade will not make most Americans better off.
    Women are not particularly rational beings, following instead their genetic programming to seek the seed of the kind of uncaring asshole who would succeed in a state of nature.
    The common law jury trial system is a bad system, neither reliably identifying the guilty nor safeguarding the innocent.
    The American creed of racial equality, encoded in the Declaration of Independence, is fundamentally mistaken.

    Things that are not heresies
    Anything about foreign policy. You can be Noam Chomsky on US foreign policy, or Paul Wolfowitz, or Ted Cruz and call for carpet bombing ISIS; and your ideas will still be analyzed, debated and attacked and defended as ideas with merits and demerits--not rejected as the ravings of a nonperson.

    Anything about foreign policy? How about the US should be neutral between Israel and its Arab neighbors? How about it was a mistake to undermine the white-minority governments of Rhodesia and South Africa? How about that colonialism was, in many cases, a benefit for those colonized?

    • Replies: @Discordiax
    How about the US should be neutral between Israel and its Arab neighbors?
    The BDS crowd is doing okay. 10, 15, 20 years ago, anti-Zionism or non-pro-Zionism would have been a heresy in US mainstream discourse, but I don't think it is anymore. I don't think anyone's lost their job lately for a pro-Palestinian Facebook post, have they?

    How about it was a mistake to undermine the white-minority governments of Rhodesia and South Africa?

    That would be a heresy. You *might* be able to pass it along, under the rubric of comparing the white Rhodesians to the Iraqi Baath Party, a nasty bunch of thugs whose removal caused everything to fall apart. But that would be, ahem, controversial.

    How about that colonialism was, in many cases, a benefit for those colonized?
    That, too, would be a heresy.

    I didn't write this list to express my own views. I was more looking for suggestions that I, having my own perspective and biases, wouldn't think of.
  32. In the army, they say, “If the map doesn’t match the terrain, go with the terrain.”
    Progressives say, “If the map doesn’t match the terrain, it’s the terrain’s fault. Just keep following the map.”

    In the case of gender confirmation surgery, they actually change the terrain to match the map.

  33. @Clyde

    “[Race] doesn’t exist biologically, but it does exist socially… Culturally I’m white-ified. People see me as white. That has something to do with how I look, but it has nothing to do with biological variation.”
     
    Look where he lives "Alan Goodman, a biological anthropologist at Hampshire College in Amherst, Mass". A rural enough whitetopia. Sure there are some NAMs going to UMass and agricultural workers out there but I am sure his neighborhood has none and the local public schools are just fine for his children which is a great money saver. Plus I kinda remember that professors children can get discounted tuitions in Western Massachusetts at some of the colleges that cooperate this way.

    Clyde, Funny thing about race not existing, on the print out for my new prescription medicine it states that side effects and reactions …well here is the line: “Caution is advised when using this medicine in Asian patients because the risk of side effects may be increased in these patients.” Must be some social construct that causes this risk, but wait isn’t sickle cell found almost exclusively in blacks and Mediterranean Anemia in , well people from that region around the Mediterranean Sea. Must be something to do with how they look.

  34. “Yeah, that’s real, man. But Koreans are not a race. And you’re not a race. You’re an individual variant who happens to have long arms.”

    Tactical nihilism

    • Replies: @Bill
    Oh, that's what it's called. I always call it "strategic pretense of stupidity." Tactical nihilism is much better. Snappier and more insulting.

    Though, strategic pretense of stupidity is broader. What do you call it when someone pretends not to understand what you are saying so as to lure you into a long, tedious, step-by-step recitation of your argument? I also call that strategic pretense of stupidity. It's not really nihilism.
  35. We humans have a long history of buying clothes without explicitly considering our ancestry, so this innovation sounds, if not racist, at least racially inappropriate.

    I have noticed Jews buying very small brimless hats over and over and Texans buying very large ones with brims over and over. And both said that was what their Dads and Grandpas wore.

  36. EU should be called Ewwwww.

  37. IBC says:

    Oakley (based in California) has been offering “Asian fit” sunglasses for several years. They’re for people who have a low nasal bridge and high cheekbones:

    https://www.revantoptics.com/blog/asian-fit-explained/

    San Bushmen might find them more comfortable too:

    And Nike offers their “N7 Air Native” sneaker expressly designed for “the Native American foot:”

    http://www.indiancountrynews.com/index.php/news/9-news-from-through-out-indian-country/2067-does-the-shoe-fit-native-nike-footwear-raises-concerns

    Anecdotally, a while ago; I walked by a display for Kim Kardashian’s shoe line (at JC Penney maybe) and the shoes they featured looked kind of big. I thought that might have been because they expected a lot of black customers, or maybe just plus-sized women in general; but I didn’t stop and check what other sizes they had, so that’s just an impression and a guess.

  38. These arguments against the reality of race reminds me of Zeno’s Paradoxes. Fun to think about when you’re a college student but get a little older and you become satisfied with this fact: Things clearly move. And along that line, race fucking exists. An anthropologist is the last person I’d look to for answers to questions about the human race. Anthropologists are almost all leftists of the worst possible kind.

  39. @David
    I just bought a cotton sweater at Brooks Brothers in Manchester VT that was labeled, as I recall, "Size L (XL Asian)." I'm sorry I can't say for sure because I cut the label out so the sweater wouldn't have that little scrunched spot the ruins the fit around the collar.

    I just bought a cotton sweater at Brooks Brothers in Manchester VT that was labeled, as I recall, “Size L (XL Asian).” I’m sorry I can’t say for sure because I cut the label out so the sweater wouldn’t have that little scrunched spot the ruins the fit around the collar.

    This kind of labelling by race is pretty common in Asia. I’ve seen labels that go something like ‘Size US M — European L — Asian XL’.

    I have little success buying clothes in Asia (I’m 6′ 5″). I’ve never found a Japanese garment other than socks that ever fit. In China I’ve occasionally found triple or even quadruple-X clothes that did fit.

    In both places, of course, there are outliers who are taller and bigger than I am, especially up in northern China. They must have the very devil of a time finding clothes. I’ve never seen an Asian version of a ‘big and tall’ store like in the USA.

  40. The assertion is that the traits we associate with “race” — hair color and texture, skin pigmentation, epicanthic eye folds and whatever else — actually occur in gradients throughout the human family, not clean breaks. So much variation occurs within what we call “races” that to ascribe any particular traits to a certain race is, anthropologists say, misguided.

    It’s good to know that differences are only relevant if there’s no intermediate state. So there’s no difference between a frog sitting happily in room-temperature water and one that’s being cooked at boiling point, provided the water was heated slowly.

    • Replies: @Fun
    There are clearly no meaningful distinctions between The Sahara Desert and Congo Basin Rainforest, because the two gradually transition into each other, you see...
  41. @Rob McX

    The assertion is that the traits we associate with “race” — hair color and texture, skin pigmentation, epicanthic eye folds and whatever else — actually occur in gradients throughout the human family, not clean breaks. So much variation occurs within what we call “races” that to ascribe any particular traits to a certain race is, anthropologists say, misguided.
     
    It's good to know that differences are only relevant if there's no intermediate state. So there's no difference between a frog sitting happily in room-temperature water and one that's being cooked at boiling point, provided the water was heated slowly.

    There are clearly no meaningful distinctions between The Sahara Desert and Congo Basin Rainforest, because the two gradually transition into each other, you see…

    • Replies: @Ginger Bread Man
    Great retort, I'll use that next time I hear this argument in a conversation.
  42. But with this one question, the once mundane world of dress shirts is now dabbling in a kind of racial profiling. Are we ready to dredge up centuries of racial strife, simply for a perfect fit?

    If that’s all it takes to rile these people up we shouldn’t bother trying to accommodate them in any way.

  43. @jJay

    Why not improve on that concept, he wondered, with an online service that fitted your shirts by asking you questions, and then mailed you the garments?
     
    Those "questions", I assume, are related to measurements - neck circumference, arm length, girth about about the shoulders and abdomen, etc.


    He noticed an odd pattern. In that first batch of 30, the shirts fit best on testers who were Caucasians.
     
    So... if my first assumption is correct, then I have to conclude that Caucasians are better at taking measurements than other racial groups. I am a bit surprised that Asians cannot measure as well as woodies.

    Well, later in the article it’s noted that various groups lie about similar things. I imagine Asians inflated their chest and arm circumference measurements.

  44. @Yak-15
    In general, men's clothing sizes don't fit guys with huge butts and wide legs. It becomes very tedious and annoying to try to find pants if you have that body type.

    I have seen some brothers (and sisters) with the same problem. When will the racist fashion designers address us?

    I have this problem and I stopped even trying to find stuff that fits off the shelf. I just buy jeans that fit in the waist online and have the legs hemmed as soon as I get them.

  45. @syonredux

    Here’s what they mean: if you were to travel across the Eurasian continent from Portugal to Japan, say, there would be no river, forest or discrete boundary where people suddenly started looking “Asian” (or “European” if you traveled from east to west). Instead, changes in physical appearance would occur so gradually and imperceptibly that you probably wouldn’t notice. You’d only be aware that, once in Japan, people definitely looked different than in Portugal.

    The assertion is that the traits we associate with “race” — hair color and texture, skin pigmentation, epicanthic eye folds and whatever else — actually occur in gradients throughout the human family, not clean breaks. So much variation occurs within what we call “races” that to ascribe any particular traits to a certain race is, anthropologists say, misguided.
     
    So, only Platonic distinctions count? Fuzzy borders not allowed?

    Those Platonic distinctions among the diverse peoples of the Central Asian steppe were blurred not by unpredictable, chaotic, unevolutionary genetic shifts imagined by pseudo-academics, but by the relentless waves of Mongols raping and pillaging for decades, beginning with Ghengis Khan.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    For example, the Hazara of central Afghanistan look more Mongol than the Pathans of eastern Afghanistan and western Pakistan. They explain it by recounting their ancestry back to Genghis Khan, which, according to a 2003 DNA study, is sometimes true.
  46. > Read the whole thing there. Lots more of interest …

    I clicked but couldn’t bear the thought of reading more tedious silliness mixed with interesting info from the complicatedly-named Moises Velasquez-Manoff.

    My knee-jerk reaction was, “everybody knows East Asians have different body types from Europeans”. But if I think about it, my first encounter with that idea was, as a kid (growing up in a 99.9% European environment) my mom pointing out once that Asian women have short legs, so that even a very beautiful Asian woman will not have her legs and butt as her best feature (something like that). I thought that sounded dubious and weird and possibly racist.

    Much later, after many years of hanging out with Asians, I started to notice there were differences, such as longer torsos. A Korean woman told me how it can be a subject of fun to mock people with specially long torsos — “can’t tell if he’s standing or sitting down”, that kind of thing.

    You’d think this would be easy to check on the Internet, but not so much. Plenty of evidence about the Dutch being tall, but Asian limb length, not so much (and let’s not talk about other parts).

    A Quora answer points out the complication that, in Japan, as post-war nutrition improved, most of the increase in size occurred in the legs. So, as usual, there is a genetic and an environmental aspect.
    https://www.quora.com/Where-does-the-stereotype-of-Japanese-people-having-relatively-longer-torsos-than-legs-come-from

    Finally, I just want to say… Who… xxxing… cares! If it works for a business to use race, let them. It would be mildly interesting to know whether they are wrong, and differences are always interesting. But to make it a whole political / moral / historical question… For heaven’s sake, don’t we have better things to do?

  47. @Eric Novak
    Those Platonic distinctions among the diverse peoples of the Central Asian steppe were blurred not by unpredictable, chaotic, unevolutionary genetic shifts imagined by pseudo-academics, but by the relentless waves of Mongols raping and pillaging for decades, beginning with Ghengis Khan.

    For example, the Hazara of central Afghanistan look more Mongol than the Pathans of eastern Afghanistan and western Pakistan. They explain it by recounting their ancestry back to Genghis Khan, which, according to a 2003 DNA study, is sometimes true.

  48. When I related the tale to (((Goodman))) and asked if what I’d perceived was real — that I had an unusual body for Seoul — he said, “Yeah, that’s real, man. But Koreans are not a race. And you’re not a race. You’re an individual variant who happens to have long arms.”

    http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-01-07.htm

    This guy missed his calling – there are loads of suckers with fat wallets walking around who could have otherwise owned the Brooklyn bridge.

  49. @Discordiax
    There are ideas, true and false, that cannot be aired publicly in America without placing yourself beyond the pale of intellectual discussion. These ideas are more often anathematized than argued against.

    I wonder if our esteemed host would be interested in hosting an Index of Heresies.

    I compiled this list, but I'm sure that there are some that I have not noticed. Obviously, some of these contradict others, but all of the ideas, if expressed, will run you out of polite society. This has gone on long enough that impolite society is now a sizable political force.

    US has too many Mexicans
    US has too many Muslims
    There is something wrong with gay people.
    There is something wrong with transgender people.
    Blacks on average are less intelligent than whites.
    Blacks are subhuman near-animals.
    God created man and woman, separate from the animal kingdom, and has particular views about sexual morality.
    Evolution did not stop with the Neolithic Revolution, and there are significant biological differences between racial groups.
    Jews have too much power.
    There is a Jewish conspiracy to bring down white/Western/Christian civilization
    The Geneva Conventions are too restrictive, and the US would be better off going back to the practices of Sherman and Sheridan and Truman and LeMay.
    Our criminal justice system, on the whole, produced more order and more justice in 1950 than it does today.
    Slavery had benefits for black slaves.
    Free trade will not make most Americans better off.
    Women are not particularly rational beings, following instead their genetic programming to seek the seed of the kind of uncaring asshole who would succeed in a state of nature.
    The common law jury trial system is a bad system, neither reliably identifying the guilty nor safeguarding the innocent.
    The American creed of racial equality, encoded in the Declaration of Independence, is fundamentally mistaken.

    Things that are not heresies
    Anything about foreign policy. You can be Noam Chomsky on US foreign policy, or Paul Wolfowitz, or Ted Cruz and call for carpet bombing ISIS; and your ideas will still be analyzed, debated and attacked and defended as ideas with merits and demerits--not rejected as the ravings of a nonperson.

    The common law system of jury trial is less accurate than, say, military courts-martial. Even judge trials where the right to a jury is waived are probably more accurate so long as the judge in question has no special animus against the defendant. Juries are, for a variety of reasons, not especially accurate, because they are wholly untrained and tend to go along with the most imposing or domineering person or small subgroup within the jury.

    Most people, if they serve on a jury, do so once in their lives. The prosecutor, the judge, and the defense counsel have experienced hundreds or thousands of trials and know what typically happens and doesn’t happen. Also, on average, the average judge, prosecutor, and defense attorney are more intelligent than most members of the average jury, both because attorneys on average are smarter than the general public and also because, like pregnancy, jury duty is more deftly avoided by smarter people.

    The real reason to support the jury system is the one reason lawyers detest: the possibility the jury may nullify the law by refusing to convict when it reasonably believes the accused is factually guilty. This also relates to the United States’ traditional refusal to tolerate “the truth is no defense” laws. You could yell fire in a crowded theater if the theater was in fact on fire, and you could call a woman a whore-be she a scullery maid or First Lady (indeed, even President!) of the United States-if you could prove she had sex for money. By contrast, under the doctrine of seditious libel, still the law in most of the Anglosphere today, to say a defamatory thing against an official was a crime, even if it was true and you could prove it.

    Juries have the unquestioned power to return a not guilty verdict for any reason, including their disagreement with the law, their believing that the law, otherwise good, is inappropriate for the case in question, or their belief that the likely punishment would be excessive. However, there is the legal fiction that while they may have the power, they do not have the right. Nonetheless, jury nullification is an important check on judicial power and law enforcement mischief in the real world.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    You could cut jury time served about in half by videotaping the trial and then showing an edit overseen by the judge to the jurors.
    , @ATX Hipster

    The common law system of jury trial is less accurate than, say, military courts-martial.
     
    If you have faith in the military's legal system, I suggest you look up BG Jeffrey Sinclair. A court-martial is a witch hunt if the defendant is enlisted, and a sweep-it-under-the-rug party if the defendant is an officer. I could provide plenty more examples but Sinclair's should be sufficient.
  50. @Former Darfur
    The common law system of jury trial is less accurate than, say, military courts-martial. Even judge trials where the right to a jury is waived are probably more accurate so long as the judge in question has no special animus against the defendant. Juries are, for a variety of reasons, not especially accurate, because they are wholly untrained and tend to go along with the most imposing or domineering person or small subgroup within the jury.

    Most people, if they serve on a jury, do so once in their lives. The prosecutor, the judge, and the defense counsel have experienced hundreds or thousands of trials and know what typically happens and doesn't happen. Also, on average, the average judge, prosecutor, and defense attorney are more intelligent than most members of the average jury, both because attorneys on average are smarter than the general public and also because, like pregnancy, jury duty is more deftly avoided by smarter people.

    The real reason to support the jury system is the one reason lawyers detest: the possibility the jury may nullify the law by refusing to convict when it reasonably believes the accused is factually guilty. This also relates to the United States' traditional refusal to tolerate "the truth is no defense" laws. You could yell fire in a crowded theater if the theater was in fact on fire, and you could call a woman a whore-be she a scullery maid or First Lady (indeed, even President!) of the United States-if you could prove she had sex for money. By contrast, under the doctrine of seditious libel, still the law in most of the Anglosphere today, to say a defamatory thing against an official was a crime, even if it was true and you could prove it.

    Juries have the unquestioned power to return a not guilty verdict for any reason, including their disagreement with the law, their believing that the law, otherwise good, is inappropriate for the case in question, or their belief that the likely punishment would be excessive. However, there is the legal fiction that while they may have the power, they do not have the right. Nonetheless, jury nullification is an important check on judicial power and law enforcement mischief in the real world.

    You could cut jury time served about in half by videotaping the trial and then showing an edit overseen by the judge to the jurors.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Steve, Apparently lynching would save time wasted on a trial, especially when there is indisputable video evidence of guilt.
  51. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Textbook idiotic question-begging FTA:

    I’d asked Reed how he justified using a fiction (race) to measure reality (body shape). Reed responded that while, yes, race was a social construct…
     
    No one expects the Goodman Inquisition! …

    But to the end, Goodman remained “highly skeptical.” (…) It was also a challenge to how we’ve all been conditioned to think about race. He was essentially saying, Prove that it exists. And if you can’t or won’t prove it, then stop talking about it. Because without proof, the concept of race, as it pertains to variation in the human family, is too dangerous.
     
    Regarding the shirts and glasses: The actual measurement guessing game will become obsolete in the (near?) future with body topology scanning. A booth in the mall or a device in your house will generate a 3D once-over that gets sent to the MTM/bespoke retailer.

    Possibly amusing thread involving measurements and the customer is wrong, bitch.

    If race is a social construct, then so is clothing.

  52. Ulan Ude.

    That’s where people suddenly stop looking European and start looking Asian. It’s a city in Russia a bit east of Lake Baikal. Saw it on a whistlestop Trans-Siberian railroad tour many years ago. Irkutsk, by the west shore of the lake, is contrastingly definitively European. Spent a few days there.

    I bet this Goodman person never even traveled overland for any great distance in Central Asia, or systematically interviewed people who have. It sure sounds like he’s just making up his observations. A quick look through some interviews/Q&As he’s given about his fieldwork suggests he’s never made the trip.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulan-Ude
    , @Jefferson
    "Ulan Ude.

    That’s where people suddenly stop looking European and start looking Asian"

    How is the Chinese food in Ulan Ude?
  53. @Ben Kurtz
    Ulan Ude.

    That's where people suddenly stop looking European and start looking Asian. It's a city in Russia a bit east of Lake Baikal. Saw it on a whistlestop Trans-Siberian railroad tour many years ago. Irkutsk, by the west shore of the lake, is contrastingly definitively European. Spent a few days there.

    I bet this Goodman person never even traveled overland for any great distance in Central Asia, or systematically interviewed people who have. It sure sounds like he's just making up his observations. A quick look through some interviews/Q&As he's given about his fieldwork suggests he's never made the trip.

  54. When I asked about Proper Cloth’s “ethnicity” question, Goodman had this to say: “Calling groups white or black is a pre-Darwinian view of biology that does not fit the facts of human variation.” Other anthropologists I spoke to also roundly denounced the question. Race, they say, is a social construct.

    Professor Goodman once memorably proclaimed:

    “[Race] doesn’t exist biologically, but it does exist socially… Culturally I’m white-ified. People see me as white. That has something to do with how I look, but it has nothing to do with biological variation.”

    I just … I can’t even …

    “One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no ordinary man could be such a fool.”

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "I before and after E" when spelling whitieifieid.
    , @Clyde
    George Orwell racks up another score!
    , @Dr. Doom and Gloom
    It's a sign of serious Cognitive dissonance. WTF level absurdities are a tell.
  55. @Ben Kurtz
    Ulan Ude.

    That's where people suddenly stop looking European and start looking Asian. It's a city in Russia a bit east of Lake Baikal. Saw it on a whistlestop Trans-Siberian railroad tour many years ago. Irkutsk, by the west shore of the lake, is contrastingly definitively European. Spent a few days there.

    I bet this Goodman person never even traveled overland for any great distance in Central Asia, or systematically interviewed people who have. It sure sounds like he's just making up his observations. A quick look through some interviews/Q&As he's given about his fieldwork suggests he's never made the trip.

    “Ulan Ude.

    That’s where people suddenly stop looking European and start looking Asian”

    How is the Chinese food in Ulan Ude?

    • Replies: @Ben Kurtz
    Chinese food in Russia is always odd.

    Plus, these were Central Asian Buryat types, not Han Chinese. A Mongol subgroup, and in any event strikingly non-European.
  56. Goodman’s Logic … . His approach to race is like looking at a color wheel and claiming that color is a social construct because it all melts together. No such thing as blue because at some point it shades imperceptibly into green. No such things as categories if there are fuzzy borders.

    Self-evidently ludicrous but being pushed because it gives a pseudo-scientific backing to Goodman’s refusal to deal with race.

  57. @Stebbing Heuer

    When I asked about Proper Cloth’s “ethnicity” question, Goodman had this to say: “Calling groups white or black is a pre-Darwinian view of biology that does not fit the facts of human variation.” Other anthropologists I spoke to also roundly denounced the question. Race, they say, is a social construct.

    Professor Goodman once memorably proclaimed:

    “[Race] doesn’t exist biologically, but it does exist socially… Culturally I’m white-ified. People see me as white. That has something to do with how I look, but it has nothing to do with biological variation."
     
    I just ... I can't even ...

    "One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no ordinary man could be such a fool."

    “I before and after E” when spelling whitieifieid.

  58. Luckily, I don’t need good fitting dress shirts anyway, because all the employers already asked my race and then didn’t hire me because I was white.

  59. @Clyde

    “[Race] doesn’t exist biologically, but it does exist socially… Culturally I’m white-ified. People see me as white. That has something to do with how I look, but it has nothing to do with biological variation.”
     
    Look where he lives "Alan Goodman, a biological anthropologist at Hampshire College in Amherst, Mass". A rural enough whitetopia. Sure there are some NAMs going to UMass and agricultural workers out there but I am sure his neighborhood has none and the local public schools are just fine for his children which is a great money saver. Plus I kinda remember that professors children can get discounted tuitions in Western Massachusetts at some of the colleges that cooperate this way.

    Clyde- I broadly agree with your observation, however the neighborhood where Hampshire is is more vibrant than you’d imagine -there’s a housing project just north of the golf course which is just north of the campus. Ditto the public schools, which have an active and noisy BLM contingent. Goodman is nothing if not consistent- he’s been pounding the “race is a social construct” idea for at least 25 years. The Hampshire faculty, as a group, makes the typical university faculty look like the Murray Rothbard Appreciation Society

  60. @AndrewR
    With what would you suggest replacing the common law jury trial system?

    My point is not that the jury system is or isn’t a bad system. My point is that, if you said so in an open forum, you’re counted as a morally deficient person. (I’m not sure this is true, but also not willing to run the experiment.)

    I’m saying that the sanctity of trial by jury is on the list of Things That Are Not Subject to Question.

    I thought it was obvious I don’t endorse all of the opinions on the list. But all of the opinions on the list will get you tarred as a morally deficient person by Polite Society, or by the Cathedral, or whatever term you care to use.

    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Well regardless, your list needs work. The part about blacks being less intelligent on average would get you purged from the establishment but an open minded liberal would be willing to hear you out and maybe be convinced. To claim that blacks are subhuman is on another level and would undoubtedly earn you much more condemnation than the previous claim. Although quite frankly, I don't find it a highly untenable position.
  61. @Harry Baldwin
    Anything about foreign policy? How about the US should be neutral between Israel and its Arab neighbors? How about it was a mistake to undermine the white-minority governments of Rhodesia and South Africa? How about that colonialism was, in many cases, a benefit for those colonized?

    How about the US should be neutral between Israel and its Arab neighbors?
    The BDS crowd is doing okay. 10, 15, 20 years ago, anti-Zionism or non-pro-Zionism would have been a heresy in US mainstream discourse, but I don’t think it is anymore. I don’t think anyone’s lost their job lately for a pro-Palestinian Facebook post, have they?

    How about it was a mistake to undermine the white-minority governments of Rhodesia and South Africa?

    That would be a heresy. You *might* be able to pass it along, under the rubric of comparing the white Rhodesians to the Iraqi Baath Party, a nasty bunch of thugs whose removal caused everything to fall apart. But that would be, ahem, controversial.

    How about that colonialism was, in many cases, a benefit for those colonized?
    That, too, would be a heresy.

    I didn’t write this list to express my own views. I was more looking for suggestions that I, having my own perspective and biases, wouldn’t think of.

    • Replies: @Ginger Bread Man
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Salaita

    http://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/finkelstein.html
  62. @slippery_people

    “Yeah, that’s real, man. But Koreans are not a race. And you’re not a race. You’re an individual variant who happens to have long arms.”
     
    Tactical nihilism

    Oh, that’s what it’s called. I always call it “strategic pretense of stupidity.” Tactical nihilism is much better. Snappier and more insulting.

    Though, strategic pretense of stupidity is broader. What do you call it when someone pretends not to understand what you are saying so as to lure you into a long, tedious, step-by-step recitation of your argument? I also call that strategic pretense of stupidity. It’s not really nihilism.

  63. Anthropologists aren’t really scientists; as a group, they have more or less admitted it. This Professor Goodman certainly isn’t a scientist. Not a good one, anyway.

  64. @Discordiax
    My point is not that the jury system is or isn't a bad system. My point is that, if you said so in an open forum, you're counted as a morally deficient person. (I'm not sure this is true, but also not willing to run the experiment.)

    I'm saying that the sanctity of trial by jury is on the list of Things That Are Not Subject to Question.

    I thought it was obvious I don't endorse all of the opinions on the list. But all of the opinions on the list will get you tarred as a morally deficient person by Polite Society, or by the Cathedral, or whatever term you care to use.

    Well regardless, your list needs work. The part about blacks being less intelligent on average would get you purged from the establishment but an open minded liberal would be willing to hear you out and maybe be convinced. To claim that blacks are subhuman is on another level and would undoubtedly earn you much more condemnation than the previous claim. Although quite frankly, I don’t find it a highly untenable position.

  65. @Jus' Sayin'...
    I have too good a memory to survive in Oceania. I remember back in the 1960s and 1970s several Negro entrepreneurs made the news when they started clothing lines designed to fit what they described as standard Negro body types. As I remember, these included bigger seats in pants for bigger butts and longer sleeve and trouser lengths. Back then this was forward thinking. I have no idea how well these clothing lines did. I suspect that the design parameters were far less scientific than those presented in the article. Also they were targeting a demographic that is much more concerned with being in fashion than other races. Clothing designed for pure comfort and functionality does not do well within this demographic. I learned this fact from a Jewish haberdasher's son whose father's clientele was entirely Negro. He made a good living catering to the annual changes in Negro fashion that he'd learned to predict and respond to over the years.

    True that!

    Sammy Davis had a line of clothing for the black posterior, while Eldridge Cleaver had a line of pants with codpieces to accommodate the brothers’ outsized tools. Really, it was in Newsweek.

  66. Colors exist on a gradient. Going along the color wheel slowly, it is hard to tell a color is changing at all. Therefore, red does not exist as a color and is the same as blue and yellow.

  67. @Clyde

    “[Race] doesn’t exist biologically, but it does exist socially… Culturally I’m white-ified. People see me as white. That has something to do with how I look, but it has nothing to do with biological variation.”
     
    Look where he lives "Alan Goodman, a biological anthropologist at Hampshire College in Amherst, Mass". A rural enough whitetopia. Sure there are some NAMs going to UMass and agricultural workers out there but I am sure his neighborhood has none and the local public schools are just fine for his children which is a great money saver. Plus I kinda remember that professors children can get discounted tuitions in Western Massachusetts at some of the colleges that cooperate this way.

    Look where he lives “Alan Goodman, a biological anthropologist at Hampshire College in Amherst, Mass”

    A place where race doesn’t exist. Liberals don’t believe in segregation. They practice it.

  68. @syonredux

    Here’s what they mean: if you were to travel across the Eurasian continent from Portugal to Japan, say, there would be no river, forest or discrete boundary where people suddenly started looking “Asian” (or “European” if you traveled from east to west). Instead, changes in physical appearance would occur so gradually and imperceptibly that you probably wouldn’t notice. You’d only be aware that, once in Japan, people definitely looked different than in Portugal.

    The assertion is that the traits we associate with “race” — hair color and texture, skin pigmentation, epicanthic eye folds and whatever else — actually occur in gradients throughout the human family, not clean breaks. So much variation occurs within what we call “races” that to ascribe any particular traits to a certain race is, anthropologists say, misguided.
     
    So, only Platonic distinctions count? Fuzzy borders not allowed?

    if you were to travel across the Eurasian continent from Portugal to Japan, say,

    I once made that jaunt, fifty years ago when you could do it without getting killed. When I went over the Khyber Pass from Afghanistan to Pakistan I thought I was on another planet.

  69. Yes race is a social construct. That’s why there are hairdressing salons that cater exclusively to black women. “Coz crackas don’t know shit bout doin sistahs hair”.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Yes race is a social construct. That’s why there are hairdressing salons that cater exclusively to black women. “Coz crackas don’t know shit bout doin sistahs hair”.
     
    The proles aren't bound by the same strictures that the Outer Party is.
  70. @Discordiax
    There are ideas, true and false, that cannot be aired publicly in America without placing yourself beyond the pale of intellectual discussion. These ideas are more often anathematized than argued against.

    I wonder if our esteemed host would be interested in hosting an Index of Heresies.

    I compiled this list, but I'm sure that there are some that I have not noticed. Obviously, some of these contradict others, but all of the ideas, if expressed, will run you out of polite society. This has gone on long enough that impolite society is now a sizable political force.

    US has too many Mexicans
    US has too many Muslims
    There is something wrong with gay people.
    There is something wrong with transgender people.
    Blacks on average are less intelligent than whites.
    Blacks are subhuman near-animals.
    God created man and woman, separate from the animal kingdom, and has particular views about sexual morality.
    Evolution did not stop with the Neolithic Revolution, and there are significant biological differences between racial groups.
    Jews have too much power.
    There is a Jewish conspiracy to bring down white/Western/Christian civilization
    The Geneva Conventions are too restrictive, and the US would be better off going back to the practices of Sherman and Sheridan and Truman and LeMay.
    Our criminal justice system, on the whole, produced more order and more justice in 1950 than it does today.
    Slavery had benefits for black slaves.
    Free trade will not make most Americans better off.
    Women are not particularly rational beings, following instead their genetic programming to seek the seed of the kind of uncaring asshole who would succeed in a state of nature.
    The common law jury trial system is a bad system, neither reliably identifying the guilty nor safeguarding the innocent.
    The American creed of racial equality, encoded in the Declaration of Independence, is fundamentally mistaken.

    Things that are not heresies
    Anything about foreign policy. You can be Noam Chomsky on US foreign policy, or Paul Wolfowitz, or Ted Cruz and call for carpet bombing ISIS; and your ideas will still be analyzed, debated and attacked and defended as ideas with merits and demerits--not rejected as the ravings of a nonperson.

    Blacks are subhuman near-animals.

    Wha? People like you give people like Steve Sailer a bad name.

    • Replies: @Discordiax
    I'm trying to come up with an index of thoughtcrime, not listing my own thoughtcrimes. And vile Stormfront-type racism definitely belongs on the index.

    I'm listing heresies. That's why both young-earth creationism and HBD are on the list.

    I could put you to the question: Was THAT the only one that you reacted to? You transphobic homophobic islamophobic racist creationist etc.

    EDIT: I would add NAMBLA style pro-pedophilia to the list. Even the guy who wrote for Salon (the "ethical pedophile" did not ENGAGE in pedophilia and finds it morally abhorrent to act on his impulses.)

  71. When it comes to dress shirts, I’m totes racist: I strongly prefer White, though I have a few token blues and pinks.

  72. @Stebbing Heuer

    When I asked about Proper Cloth’s “ethnicity” question, Goodman had this to say: “Calling groups white or black is a pre-Darwinian view of biology that does not fit the facts of human variation.” Other anthropologists I spoke to also roundly denounced the question. Race, they say, is a social construct.

    Professor Goodman once memorably proclaimed:

    “[Race] doesn’t exist biologically, but it does exist socially… Culturally I’m white-ified. People see me as white. That has something to do with how I look, but it has nothing to do with biological variation."
     
    I just ... I can't even ...

    "One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no ordinary man could be such a fool."

    George Orwell racks up another score!

  73. In that first batch of 30, the shirts fit best on testers who were Caucasians. They seemed to fit worse, in a predictable way, on people who weren’t Caucasian. All subjects of one ancestry — Asian, say — seemed to require the same general alterations.

    Somebody didn’t get the memo: the only difference between the races is skin color, and maybe a few facial features. Had they read the memo, they’d know that the shirts fit just FINE.

  74. @Luke Lea

    Blacks are subhuman near-animals.
     
    Wha? People like you give people like Steve Sailer a bad name.

    I’m trying to come up with an index of thoughtcrime, not listing my own thoughtcrimes. And vile Stormfront-type racism definitely belongs on the index.

    I’m listing heresies. That’s why both young-earth creationism and HBD are on the list.

    I could put you to the question: Was THAT the only one that you reacted to? You transphobic homophobic islamophobic racist creationist etc.

    EDIT: I would add NAMBLA style pro-pedophilia to the list. Even the guy who wrote for Salon (the “ethical pedophile” did not ENGAGE in pedophilia and finds it morally abhorrent to act on his impulses.)

  75. @Steve Sailer
    You could cut jury time served about in half by videotaping the trial and then showing an edit overseen by the judge to the jurors.

    Steve, Apparently lynching would save time wasted on a trial, especially when there is indisputable video evidence of guilt.

  76. @Fun
    There are clearly no meaningful distinctions between The Sahara Desert and Congo Basin Rainforest, because the two gradually transition into each other, you see...

    Great retort, I’ll use that next time I hear this argument in a conversation.

  77. @Discordiax
    How about the US should be neutral between Israel and its Arab neighbors?
    The BDS crowd is doing okay. 10, 15, 20 years ago, anti-Zionism or non-pro-Zionism would have been a heresy in US mainstream discourse, but I don't think it is anymore. I don't think anyone's lost their job lately for a pro-Palestinian Facebook post, have they?

    How about it was a mistake to undermine the white-minority governments of Rhodesia and South Africa?

    That would be a heresy. You *might* be able to pass it along, under the rubric of comparing the white Rhodesians to the Iraqi Baath Party, a nasty bunch of thugs whose removal caused everything to fall apart. But that would be, ahem, controversial.

    How about that colonialism was, in many cases, a benefit for those colonized?
    That, too, would be a heresy.

    I didn't write this list to express my own views. I was more looking for suggestions that I, having my own perspective and biases, wouldn't think of.
  78. @Former Darfur
    The common law system of jury trial is less accurate than, say, military courts-martial. Even judge trials where the right to a jury is waived are probably more accurate so long as the judge in question has no special animus against the defendant. Juries are, for a variety of reasons, not especially accurate, because they are wholly untrained and tend to go along with the most imposing or domineering person or small subgroup within the jury.

    Most people, if they serve on a jury, do so once in their lives. The prosecutor, the judge, and the defense counsel have experienced hundreds or thousands of trials and know what typically happens and doesn't happen. Also, on average, the average judge, prosecutor, and defense attorney are more intelligent than most members of the average jury, both because attorneys on average are smarter than the general public and also because, like pregnancy, jury duty is more deftly avoided by smarter people.

    The real reason to support the jury system is the one reason lawyers detest: the possibility the jury may nullify the law by refusing to convict when it reasonably believes the accused is factually guilty. This also relates to the United States' traditional refusal to tolerate "the truth is no defense" laws. You could yell fire in a crowded theater if the theater was in fact on fire, and you could call a woman a whore-be she a scullery maid or First Lady (indeed, even President!) of the United States-if you could prove she had sex for money. By contrast, under the doctrine of seditious libel, still the law in most of the Anglosphere today, to say a defamatory thing against an official was a crime, even if it was true and you could prove it.

    Juries have the unquestioned power to return a not guilty verdict for any reason, including their disagreement with the law, their believing that the law, otherwise good, is inappropriate for the case in question, or their belief that the likely punishment would be excessive. However, there is the legal fiction that while they may have the power, they do not have the right. Nonetheless, jury nullification is an important check on judicial power and law enforcement mischief in the real world.

    The common law system of jury trial is less accurate than, say, military courts-martial.

    If you have faith in the military’s legal system, I suggest you look up BG Jeffrey Sinclair. A court-martial is a witch hunt if the defendant is enlisted, and a sweep-it-under-the-rug party if the defendant is an officer. I could provide plenty more examples but Sinclair’s should be sufficient.

  79. You have to wonder about the sanity of liars willing to deny biological reality. We are now at a point where reality can no longer be discussed. This must be the end right here. This is so insane it is hard to believe. When the government collapses or is overthrown, all these people must be removed from their positions. This cannot be allowed to continue. It makes a mockery of science and the concept of truth to allow this kind of crap.

  80. @syonredux

    There is no such thing as a race in terms of being able to absolutely delineate the boundaries of a race,but it is generally true that black men and women have broader shoulders and smaller calves (not always, but generally), different shaped buttocks, and so on, so if people describe themselves as black, white, or Asian, it is likely that after making adjustments for age and body mass index, you might be able to make clothes that fit more people better.
     
    Ian Fleming has a bit in You Only Live Twice where he comments on how the Japanese have absurdly small buttocks.


    If you are into women who are caudally equipped, stay clear of East Asia....

    Ian Fleming lived in Jamaica, so I think I can guess where his tastes lay.

  81. Or is he pretending to be scientific as a marketing gimmick, while actually enforcing false, outdated and possibly dangerous ideas about race?

    He was saying that casting these distinctions as “racial” was incorrect (and calling these labels “ethnicities,” as Proper Cloth does, is no less problematic). It’s also potentially dangerous.

    Because without proof, the concept of race, as it pertains to variation in the human family, is too dangerous.

    The words “dangerous” and “potentially dangerous” pop up all the time in college campus Discussions About Race. The question I pose is Why is admitting that Asians are short and blacks run fast dangerous? What is the danger? People beat around the bush, but eventually admit that acknowledging people are different led to slavery, apartheid and the holocaust.

    I follow up with “Well, if you believe that race is a silly outdated fiction, why is it still dangerous?” Unless they are completely unreasonable, most people acknowledge in a somber tone that if people truly are different, then people will inevitably rise up and kill their neighbors. So in order for this not to happen, we need to act as though there are no differences.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    ...most people acknowledge in a somber tone that if people truly are different, then people will inevitably rise up and kill their neighbors.
     
    As a matter of fact, progressives will do this. Their fear is thus not unfounded, merely projected.

    Progressives invented nuclear weaponry. And used it. On women and children.
  82. @Jefferson
    "Ulan Ude.

    That’s where people suddenly stop looking European and start looking Asian"

    How is the Chinese food in Ulan Ude?

    Chinese food in Russia is always odd.

    Plus, these were Central Asian Buryat types, not Han Chinese. A Mongol subgroup, and in any event strikingly non-European.

  83. @ben tillman

    The assertion is that the traits we associate with “race” — hair color and texture, skin pigmentation, epicanthic eye folds and whatever else — actually occur in gradients throughout the human family, not clean breaks.
     
    In the race-denier's arsenal, there's little that is stupider than this. It's the same as saying red and green are indistinguishable.

    Exactly. The logical Falacy is sometimes called argument of the beard. How many whiskers make a beard? Is one enough, 2,what about 259? That we cannot make a clear rule doesn’t mean there is no distinction between bearded and non bearded,.

    Interestingly, if forced to make distinctions that are too fine, subjects become experimentally neurotic and lose the ability to make distinctions at all. It is literally a mild form of insanity.

  84. @Stebbing Heuer

    When I asked about Proper Cloth’s “ethnicity” question, Goodman had this to say: “Calling groups white or black is a pre-Darwinian view of biology that does not fit the facts of human variation.” Other anthropologists I spoke to also roundly denounced the question. Race, they say, is a social construct.

    Professor Goodman once memorably proclaimed:

    “[Race] doesn’t exist biologically, but it does exist socially… Culturally I’m white-ified. People see me as white. That has something to do with how I look, but it has nothing to do with biological variation."
     
    I just ... I can't even ...

    "One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that: no ordinary man could be such a fool."

    It’s a sign of serious Cognitive dissonance. WTF level absurdities are a tell.

  85. If one traveled from New York to Los Angeles and there was no fly over territory, imperceptibly there was no difference between one PC idiot and the next.

  86. @Kat Grey
    Yes race is a social construct. That's why there are hairdressing salons that cater exclusively to black women. "Coz crackas don't know shit bout doin sistahs hair".

    Yes race is a social construct. That’s why there are hairdressing salons that cater exclusively to black women. “Coz crackas don’t know shit bout doin sistahs hair”.

    The proles aren’t bound by the same strictures that the Outer Party is.

  87. @Ginger Bread Man

    Or is he pretending to be scientific as a marketing gimmick, while actually enforcing false, outdated and possibly dangerous ideas about race?
    ...
    He was saying that casting these distinctions as “racial” was incorrect (and calling these labels “ethnicities,” as Proper Cloth does, is no less problematic). It’s also potentially dangerous.
    ...
    Because without proof, the concept of race, as it pertains to variation in the human family, is too dangerous.

     

    The words "dangerous" and "potentially dangerous" pop up all the time in college campus Discussions About Race. The question I pose is Why is admitting that Asians are short and blacks run fast dangerous? What is the danger? People beat around the bush, but eventually admit that acknowledging people are different led to slavery, apartheid and the holocaust.

    I follow up with "Well, if you believe that race is a silly outdated fiction, why is it still dangerous?" Unless they are completely unreasonable, most people acknowledge in a somber tone that if people truly are different, then people will inevitably rise up and kill their neighbors. So in order for this not to happen, we need to act as though there are no differences.

    …most people acknowledge in a somber tone that if people truly are different, then people will inevitably rise up and kill their neighbors.

    As a matter of fact, progressives will do this. Their fear is thus not unfounded, merely projected.

    Progressives invented nuclear weaponry. And used it. On women and children.

  88. Like many, healthy, genetically Northwestern European men, I find that American clothes off-the-rack are too big in the belly for me. Sloppy as hell, they are designed around the average American, who is now everything from a stocky Italian to a black Stay Puft Marshmallow Man.

    American clothes are made for fat people.

    A family friend in Europe is a tailor who does alterations in his home for very reasonable prices. He’s fixed a few things for me (even a sheepskin jacket) without fuss. In the US, it can be done, but it seems like more trouble except when buying a suit. Local Korean dry cleaners do it, but not as well. A real tailor is a luxury here.

    We live a mass-market, T-shirt existence in which practically all of us are working class. Old-world (read European) tailoring has been replaced by an internet geek business, which anti-whites (anti-Europeans) are now attacking.

  89. People used to try to act more sophisticated by demonstrating their greater knowledge. Today, people try for higher status by offering sophistry about why Knowledge Can’t Exist.

    You said it all!

    I live in Japan, where I can’t find a proper-fitting suit. Must be total chance! Can’t be that the hundreds to thousands of Japanese who can find a proper-fitting have a different-shaped body! Impossible!!!

  90. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    There’s a certain reticence in divulging that Africans have longer arms for fear of simian comparisons being made. This is shown by the recent incident where the African-American players of the Sacramento Kings went bananas over the ‘Year of the Monkey’ t-shirts offered to them. That was hitting a little bit too close to home. If I remember correctly JP Rushton noted that blacks had smaller hat sizes which was due to slightly smaller craniums owing to the smaller brain size of that group. Not something many people want to have as part of a public discussion.

  91. The company sounds like the real life model for “it’s the fit” in the movie, “The Intern,” with Robert Denison and Anne Hayhaway.

  92. Can faces be racist?

    Facial-Recognition Software Might Have a Racial Bias Problem

    In 16 “undisclosed locations” across northern Los Angeles, digital eyes watch the public. These aren’t ordinary police-surveillance cameras; these cameras are looking at your face. Using facial-recognition software, the cameras can recognize individuals from up to 600 feet away. The faces they collect are then compared, in real-time, against “hot lists” of people suspected of gang activity or having an open arrest warrant.

    Considering arrest and incarceration rates across L.A., chances are high that those hot lists disproportionately implicate African Americans. And recent research suggests that the algorithms behind facial-recognition technology may perform worse on precisely this demographic. Facial-recognition systems are more likely either to misidentify or fail to identify African Americans than other races, errors that could result in innocent citizens being marked as suspects in crimes. And though this technology is being rolled out by law enforcement across the country, little is being done to explore—or correct—for the bias.

    This is not to say that facial-recognition algorithms are “racist,” or that racial bias has been intentionally introduced into how they operate. Rather these demonstrated disparities may be introduced unintentionally at a number of points in the process of designing and deploying a facial recognition system. The engineer that develops an algorithm may program it to focus on facial features that are more easily distinguishable in some races than in others—the shape of a person’s eyes, the width of the nose, the size of the mouth or chin. This decision, in turn, might be based on preexisting biological research about face identification and past practices which themselves may contain bias. Or the engineer may rely on his or her own experience in distinguishing between faces—a process that is influenced by the engineer’s own race.

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