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From the New York Times, an article about how a brain scientist is going to use brain scans to try to figure out the mystery of white flight in Hungary from heavily Roma (Gypsy) schools. What kind of brain defect causes white Hungarian parents to hold delusional stereotypes about Gypsy children being lazy, dishonest, and less interested in academics? Perhaps Science can someday figure out why white Hungarians hallucinate so bizarrely about Gypsies!

The Brain’s Empathy Gap
Can mapping neural pathways help us make friends with our enemies?
By JENEEN INTERLANDI MARCH 19, 2015

Nyiregyhaza (pronounced NEAR-re-cha-za) is a medium-size city tucked into the northeastern corner of Hungary, about 60 miles from the Ukrainian border. It has a world-class zoo, several museums and universities and a new Lego Factory. It also has two Roma settlements, or “Gypsy ghettos.” The larger of these settlements is Gusev, a crumbling 19th-century military barracks separated from the city proper by a railway station and a partly defunct industrial zone. Gusev is home to more than 1,000 Roma. Its chief amenities include a small grocery store and a playground equipped with a lone seesaw and a swingless swing set. There’s also a freshly painted elementary school, where approximately 60 students are currently enrolled. Almost all those students are Roma and almost all of them live in Gusev.

Officially, most of the schools in Nyiregyhaza are integrated. Roma students have access to the same facilities as non-Roma students, and the ethnic balance of any given facility largely reflects the ethnic balance of the neighborhoods it serves. In practice, things are muddier. …

In 2007, the municipality closed the Gusev school and began a busing program, as part of a larger effort to integrate the Roma into Hungarian society. But the program was short-lived, in part because of resistance from the community. Non-Roma children bullied, teased and ostracized Roma students, and non-Roma parents began pulling their children out of schools that took in too many Roma. In 2011, the busing program was discontinued and the settlement school was reopened under the direction of the Greek Catholic Church. That same year, C.F.C.F. filed a lawsuit charging the church and the municipality with racial segregation. “The church has this totally modern school, with a brand-new swimming pool, right in the center of the city,” Kegye said. “Why can’t the kids from Gusev go to that school?”

Nyiregyhaza is by no means the only city to stand accused of such practices. C.F.C.F. has filed similar lawsuits throughout Hungary, and there are cases pending in Romania, the Czech Republic and elsewhere.

The more widespread a stereotype is, the more wrong it must be.

But the Gusev case has attracted attention, in part because of the courtroom spectacle it has created. In 2013, Hungary’s minister of human resources, Zoltan Balog, testified on behalf of the Gusev school, claiming it offered Roma students a chance at social “catch-up” — the opportunity to develop the basic social and academic skills needed to join mainstream society. The school’s principal also took the stand, testifying that the Roma were infested with lice and that some had never used a fork. When asked by the presiding judge if room could be made for Roma children in the church’s other, nicer school, a priest replied that perhaps they could clear some space in the attic. When pressed, he said that mixing Roma children with non-Roma children would be “harmful” to the former. In February 2014, the court sided with C.F.C.F., ordering the Gusev school to stop accepting new students and ruling that it amounted to segregation. When I visited this fall, the Gusev school was appealing the judge’s decision, claiming it was better for the Roma to keep the school open. In the meantime, it had welcomed yet another incoming class.

Governments and nongovernmental organizations have spent decades perfecting the art of collective persuasion — getting people to do things that are good for them and for society. They have persuaded us to eat more vegetables and to wear our seatbelts, to walk for cures and to give to charity.

Of course, outside of perhaps Spain, the “art of collective persuasion” has spectacularly failed to get Gypsies to do these SWPL things, or even to stop picking pockets and running home repair scams on the elderly. The Roma are the world’s most remarkable example of in-group morality producing a lack of empathy for the host populations, no matter how many different attempts these states have attempted.

But the Roma aren’t the point, the point is White People and What’s Wrong with Them?

What has not come so easily is persuading us to identify with — or even tolerate — people we perceive as outsiders. This is especially true when those outsiders form an entire community. A Facebook page devoted to individual portraits and the stories behind them might trigger an outpouring of donations for a “failing” public school in a blighted neighborhood. And the killing of a single unarmed black teenager might prompt thousands to protest in the streets. But social policies that address the problems behind individual fates — programs to combat poverty or racial bias in policing — remain as polarizing as ever.

While social and economic factors account for some of what divides us into warring camps, psychologists since Freud have suspected that something more fundamental is at work. In 1963, the Yale psychologist Stanley Milgram famously showed that average people were capable of inflicting grievous harm on one another — in this case, administering what they believed were powerful electric shocks — if they thought they were following the orders of a superior. A few years later, in an equally famous experiment, the Stanford researcher Philip Zimbardo had subjects play prisoners and wardens and showed that context can be far more powerful than our own values and personality traits in determining how we treat other people. Together, the studies are perhaps the most emblematic of a generation of psychology research into the social cues that determine how one group treats another. What role does group identity play? Does authority make us passive or just reinforce our belief that we are right? How much of our empathy is innate and how much is instilled in us by our environment?

In the past two decades, with the advent of f.M.R.I. technology, neuroscientists also began to tackle such questions. Emile Bruneau, a cognitive neuroscientist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, has spent the past seven years studying intractable conflicts around the world. He has looked at Israelis and Palestinians in Israel and the West Bank, Mexican immigrants and Americans along the Arizona border and Democrats and Republicans across the United States. By supplementing psychological experiments with brain scans, he is trying to map when and how our ability to empathize with one another break down, in hopes of finding a way to build it back up.

This past fall, he traveled to Budapest. The struggle to integrate the Roma reminded Bruneau of the fierce opposition that greeted Brown v. Board of Education: In each case, the resistance to desegregation was forceful enough to trump national law. “I keep coming back to the same basic question,” he told me one evening at a restaurant along the Danube. “If we knew then what we know now, could we have done any better?”

So far, Bruneau says, the link between f.M.R.I. data and behavior has been tenuous. …

In Hungary, Bruneau was trying to find a way to link what he observed in the field with what we know about how empathy works in our brains. “We must have learned something in the past 60 years,” he said. “I think we have an opportunity to put that knowledge to use now, to help the efforts underway here.”

At 42, Bruneau has a young face and a laid-back manner that betrays his self-described California hippie upbringing and that most likely served him well in his early career as a high-school biology teacher. His first formal experience in conflict resolution came when he was 24 and volunteering at a summer camp for Catholic and Protestant boys in Belfast. In an effort to build friendships between the two groups, the camp organizer, an American nonprofit, invited 250 children between the ages of 6 and 14 to bunk together for three weeks, all in the same large room. There were no planned activities or events. One volunteer was an artist who wanted to help the children design murals; another was a jazz musician who offered music therapy. But mainly the volunteer counselors, all in their early 20s, were left to improvise. “Everyone’s heart was in the right place,” Bruneau told me when I visited his office at M.I.T. this fall. “But nobody had any clue what they were doing.”

At first he thought things were going pretty well. Some Protestant boys built what seemed like genuine friendships with some Catholic boys. But on the last day of the program — after three weeks of nature walks, impromptu dialogues and trust-building exercises — a fight broke out between two participants that quickly devolved into a full-scale, 250-child brawl: Catholics against Protestants. Bruneau was startled. He knew the children to be both kind and empathetic toward one another. But those instincts were overridden by something much more powerful.

Duh, boys like to fight because they really like to win. It’s almost as if Rudyard Kipling understood boys better than some music therapists and muralists. If the Twig Boy counselors don’t provide the lads with alternative structures for their competitive energies, such as randomly selected hurling teams, they’ll naturally fall back to brawling along extended family lines. What could be more natural than that?

… He spent the next few years traveling. He had already been to South Africa for the fall of apartheid.

Maybe he should try staying in one place long enough to actually learn something?

… He returned to the States, settling in Ann Arbor, Mich., where he completed a Ph.D. in molecular biology. But he kept thinking about the conflicts he had witnessed, and about the failed peace-building initiatives. What struck him most were the similarities: the ideological motivations, the deep-rooted psychological biases and the careful way that people apportioned their empathy. The questions he most wanted to answer were not about the individual molecules he was studying in the lab but about how people interacted with others. So, with his Ph.D. complete, he abandoned molecular biology and talked his way into a cognitive neuroscience lab at M.I.T. …

He started looking into conflict-intervention programs and discovered that there were hundreds more like the one he volunteered for in Ireland, and that hardly any of them had been scientifically validated. No one was really checking to see if the programs accomplished their stated goals, or even if their stated goals were the best ones for achieving the desired outcomes. “They have all these very straightforward metrics like building trust, and building empathy, that sound totally reasonable,” Bruneau says. “But it turns out that a lot of those common-sense approaches can be way off-base.”

Increasing empathy seemed to be a key goal of every conflict-resolution program he looked at; he thought this reflected a misconception about the type of people who engage in political violence. “If Hollywood is to be believed, they’re all sociopaths,” he says. “But that’s not the reality. Suicide bombers tend to be characterized by, if anything, very high levels of empathy. Wafa Idris, the first Palestinian woman suicide bomber, was a volunteer paramedic during the second Intifada.”

Bruneau developed a theory to explain this paradox: When considering an enemy, the mind generates an “empathy gap.” It mutes the empathy signal, and that muting prevents us from putting ourselves in the perceived enemy’s shoes. He couldn’t yet guess at the mechanism behind the phenomenon, but he hypothesized that it had nothing to do with how empathetic a person was by nature. Even the most deeply empathetic people could mute their empathy signals under the right circumstances. And it was difficult to determine what role empathy played in group conflicts. Increasing empathy might be great at improving pro-social behavior among individuals, but if a program succeeded in boosting an individual’s empathy for his or her own group, he reasoned, it might actually increase hostility toward the enemy.

That’s what borders are for. We have private property and we have separate countries. These allow us to concentrate our efforts at improvement where they might do the most good, where we best understand the situation, rather than, say, traveling to Ireland to cluelessly social engineer a sectarian riot.

In Budapest, whenever he found himself chatting with Roma activists who were not themselves Roma, he would ask them why they wanted to help. He had a hunch that if he put any of these “non-Roma Roma” in the scanner, and then compared their results with those of other Hungarians, they, too, would end up as blue dots in a sea of red. He reasoned that something somewhere in their lives had overridden their implicit biases and moved them to behave with greater empathy toward the minority group. He wanted to know what that something was. “If we could figure out how it happens,” he said, “maybe we could harness it somehow.” …

In Budapest, Bruneau planned to measure anti-Roma biases in a group of schoolteachers, and then to see how well those biases correlated to their treatment of Roma students and their support for Roma integration. The goal was to help NGOs and school administrators design more successful integration programs — programs that didn’t trigger political backlash or waves of white flight. “The idea is to intervene at the psychological level before we intervene at the societal level,” he said. “And then to see if doing that improves the success rate of various integration programs.”

Reporters for the New York Times aren’t complete fools, so you’ll often find well into an article a change where the reporter starts listing some unwelcome facts that contradict the article’s main thesis.

Anna Kende, a social psychologist at Eotvos Lorand University in Budapest, is not as optimistic as Bruneau about the potential of psychological interventions to improve the Roma situation. “I appreciate his approach,” she told me. “But the problem is very complex.” Part of it has to do with the Roma themselves, she says. For three generations now, their communities have been blighted by unemployment and the poverty that comes with it.

And what were Gypsy communities like more than three generations ago? Were they ignored by novelists and opera composers?

And their psyches have been frayed by that experience. Kende’s research suggests that children living in settlements understand social mobility and the mechanisms behind it: to have a nice life, you have to study hard so you can get a good job and buy a house. But they also understand that those paths are closed to them. When she asked students how they would afford a nice house and a family, many said they would have accidents and collect insurance money, or win at poker.

The Roma who do escape the settlements often shed their ethnic identities — either deliberately or by default. “So for example, the dominant group may accept a Roma who comes from the settlement and somehow makes it into college,” Kende says. “But it’s not, ‘Oh, now this changes my perception of Roma.’ It’s, ‘Oh, well that person is not really Roma.’ And then what you have left is, the word ‘Roma’ becomes shorthand for ‘dirty, lazy, thief.’ ” Those norms are so pervasive, she said, that the Roma themselves have adopted them.

Great line, perfectly exemplifying the postmodern worldview.

This was plain to see in the settlements I visited, where residents talked openly about expelling the lazy and the criminal alike. “We cannot protect people just because they are Roma,” one settlement dweller told me. “We have to throw out the bad elements.”

… Kende was not the only one feeling pessimistic. The Decade of Roma Inclusion — a multicountry initiative begun in 2005, as former Soviet-bloc countries like Hungary prepared for admission to the European Union — was drawing to a close, and the numbers were as dismal as they were at the start. According to the United Nations Development Program, about 90 percent of Europe’s 11 million or so Roma were still living below the poverty line; about 45 percent of Roma live in households that lack basic amenities like indoor toilets and electricity. In Hungary, Roma unemployment is estimated at 70 percent, or 10 times the national average. Worst of all, though, were the education statistics. Access to education was the initiative’s centerpiece, and desegregation programs received the most funding. Only one out of two Roma children attends preschool or kindergarten.

True, the decade was not a complete loss. Anti-discrimination laws were enacted, several high-profile court cases were won — including two in the European Court of Human Rights — and there were enough small-scale successes to suggest that desegregation was possible, even if systemwide gains remained elusive. But those gains had yet to be translated into meaningful change.

In other words, all that happened was the governments and NGOs got better at punishing white people forced to live around Roma. Not surprisingly, the Roma seemed to draw the lesson that they were A-OK and it was their white neighbors’ faults.

Bruneau explained that the pilot study was not an end in itself, and that the next step would be to develop actual psychological interventions, and then to test them to see which were most effective.

I suspect there will be big money to be made in developing witch-sniffing gear to suss out racists using brain scans so they can be properly punished.

Bruneau said he thought the answer to that question might lie with non-Roma activists like her. And then he asked a question: What made her, an educated white woman, take up the Roma cause? This gave Magyar pause. After a brief silence, she explained that she grew up in a city close to the Austrian border and that she always felt like an outsider when her family would cross over to go shopping. Daroczi couldn’t help interjecting; after the fall of communism, he said, Hungarians crossed the border in droves, mostly to purchase basic goods. “It was written in Hungarian on the walls of the shops, ‘Hungarians: don’t steal!’ ” he said.

“It felt shameful,” Magyar added, nodding. “I think that really affected me.”

Bruneau lit up at the anecdote; it was very similar to the stories he’d collected from other non-Roma activists.

In other words, true liberals tend to have leapfrogging loyalties because they resent people more like themselves. For example, these two white Hungarians resented that white Austrians recognized the poor moral character that Communism induced in people. So, while most white Hungarians after 1989 felt that as an impetus to live up to Western European standards of honesty, these two resented the offense to their amour propre and applied it to white people in general, adopting Gypsies as their psychological proxies.

… “Yes, but even that is tricky,” Magyar said. The way a person related her own experiences to the experiences of others was complicated, she said. “Sometimes those same experiences trigger the exact opposite reaction.”

In other words, in 1989 most Hungarians recognized that the Austrians had a point, and resolved to show them they were wrong by … behaving better.

But white liberal ethnic activists instead adopt the Gypsies as representatives of their wounded pride, for which they are ideal since they are so amazingly resistant over the long run to behaving better.

… Bruneau hopes that neural focus groups might help determine which interventions are most likely to succeed. “We would get people in the lab to view a number of different candidate anti-Roma bias campaigns,” he said. “And then see which ones generated the greatest response in predefined brain regions.” Ideally, social scientists working in Hungary would determine which programs to measure, and Bruneau’s research would help evaluate and refine those programs. In psychology experiments he conducted, short narratives about individuals from rival groups proved particularly effective at getting opponents to empathize with one another. He imagined intervention programs that used narratives like these in a variety of ways.

But before any such collaboration could begin, people — not just Roma activists but parents and teachers and school administrators — would have to be persuaded that psychological biases were, in fact, the root of the problem: that they existed in the first place, that they were coloring individual perception and affecting attitudes and behaviors and that science could help change them. Bruneau appreciates how quixotic this sounds. “I get that these are complicated problems,” he told me. “I get that there isn’t going to be any one magic solution. But if you trace even the biggest of these conflicts down to its roots, what you find are entrenched biases, and these sort-of calcified failures of empathy. So I think no matter what, we have to figure out how to root that out.”

C’mon, Dr. Bruneau, think big: the future lies not just in passively detecting racist brainwaves, but in actively remolding the brain to goodthink instead of crimethink. Crimethinkers could have the parts of their brain prone to bad thoughts lobotomized with radiation beams. I see not just the Nobel Prize in Medicine in your future, but also the Nobel Peace Prize.

 
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  1. ‘Hungarians: don’t steal!’ 

    I wonder if, along the Austrian border with Hungary, “Hungarians” is a more delicate way of saying “Gypsies,” the same way “Romanians” is in the UK.

    • Replies: @ben tillman

    I wonder if, along the Austrian border with Hungary, “Hungarians” is a more delicate way of saying “Gypsies,” the same way “Romanians” is in the UK
     
    I thought the same thing.
    , @Anonymous
    Gypsies traveling on Hungarian passports stole (just like they do wherever they are), and this was generalized into the sign. The theory in the article is completely off, it had nothing to do with the attitudes of white Hungarians or communism. Apparently the SJW mentioned in the story failed to realize who the sign was really aimed at.
    , @reiner Tor
    I'm Hungarian myself.

    It's difficult to tell. Obviously Gypsies were a big part of those Hungarians who stole, but I'm quite sure white Hungarians stole, too. Actually, that's what most Hungarians think: that while Gypsies certainly made (and still make) us look worse, we weren't quite good. Many Hungarians are still not satisfied with the way we (white Hungarians) behave in general - most of us would agree that part of the reason why Austria is so much better than Hungary is because Austrians are so much better than us Hungarians.

    BTW I was just a few times in Austria around 1989 (I was a child then), and I never so the "Hungarians" part in the sign. I only saw signs that said in Hungarian "Please don't steal", and what made it shameful was that it was only written in Hungarian, and no other language. It was obviously intended for Hungarians only. But I think Austrians were usually polite enough not to address the readers as "Hungarians". And most stores actually didn't have those signs. But at the time it was made into a big story in Hungary about how our compatriots behaved, and journalists writing about it certainly intended to shame Hungarians going to Austria into behaving more properly. (I.e. not stealing.)

    , @Anonymous
    more or less correct.
    when the border opened up, and hungarians went to austria to shop, a whole lot of gypsies, who where hungarian citizens and spoke (more or less) hungarian, also went to austria where they could steal and rob more than in impoverished hungary.
    and from the austrians point of view it looked like as if hungarians were doing it. or, more to be more precise, they confounded gypsies with hungarians.
  2. Roma gypsies before communism were better than those that exist today *
      I see a potentially relevant analogy towards black Americans in the liberal protection.

    However cruel, that capitalism may be, will still produce selective enough pressure to put the people on the road (more or less) right to collective evolution.

  3. Thank god the state department hasn’t thought to import a couple of million of them to the U.S. Probably just an oversight.

    • Replies: @donut
    We already have plenty of them. And they are pretty much all like their European cousins , at least the ones I encountered were .
  4. The Roma who do escape the settlements often shed their ethnic identities — either deliberately or by default. “So for example, the dominant group may accept a Roma who comes from the settlement and somehow makes it into college,” Kende says. “But it’s not, ‘Oh, now this changes my perception of Roma.’ It’s, ‘Oh, well that person is not really Roma.’ And then what you have left is, the word ‘Roma’ becomes shorthand for ‘dirty, lazy, thief.’ ” Those norms are so pervasive, she said, that the Roma themselves have adopted them.

    Sounds like Ron Unz’s theory that there are tons of successful Mestizo Hispanics.We just don’t notice them because they have all assimilated into White Anglo society:”See, all those stalled third generation Hispanic Mestizos? They are just the dregs, the ones who couldn’t make it! All the successful ones have non-Spanish names and are married to Irish people, etc”

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    Sounds like Ron Unz’s theory that there are tons of successful Mestizo Hispanics.We just don’t notice them because they have all assimilated into White Anglo society ..


    I guess the most extreme case of this sort is Dan Peña, who went from Los Angeles to living in a Scottish castle:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_S._Pe%C3%B1a,_Sr.

    He runs his "hassle in the castle" business boot camps there.
    , @reiner Tor
    Actually there are such people of Gypsy origin. I personally know a few dark-complexioned Hungarians, and at least two of them told me they had Gypsy ancestors. Though the others either denied or at least never brought up the topic. (I never asked it obviously.)

    Most 'racists' in Hungary actually say that they never had problems with well-behaving Gypsies. They say they want Gypsies who don't commit crimes, who aren't loud (at least not during the night when other people are trying to sleep), who are clean (the lice part was true! I had a Gypsy classmate, and she did have lice), who at least try hard to find jobs, and who don't game the welfare system. Such racists!
    , @Jefferson
    "Sounds like Ron Unz’s theory that there are tons of successful Mestizo Hispanics."

    If Ron Unz's theory was correct, you would be seeing affluent Mestizo neighborhoods popping up all over The United States, but so far every Mestizo neighborhood I have seen has been lower working class. There is a reason it is not called Gentrification when a neighborhood goes from being predominantly Black to being predominantly Mestizo. Gentrification brings upon prosperity and the heavy presence of Mestizos certainly does not bring upon prosperity.
  5. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:

    The Roma are the world’s most remarkable example of in-group morality producing a lack of empathy for the host populations

    I can think of another …

    • Replies: @Desiderius

    I can think of another …
     
    Teachers' unions?
    , @shk12344
    It's those Eskimos......
  6. I suspect there will be big money to be made in developing witch-sniffing gear to suss out racists using brain scans so they can be properly punished.

    I wonder whether frontal lobotomies will come back into vogue as a cure for “implicit racism.”

    My mitteleuropean wife is sympathetic to gypsies for some reason, but then again she isn’t intimidated by them. She told me that when a gypsy woman tried to steal her purse, she seized her by the arm, and in an effort to reform her asked whether she thought this behavior would reflect well on her people.

    One thing that differentiates American minorities from the traditional European ones is that the Europeans themselves (especially the tall blond ones) tend to be more physically formidable than their scofflaw minorities. This is a pretty important distinction. Your typical ghetto black male is way more terrifying than your average gypsy. Honestly, I’d be more wary of a gang of drunk Russians or Scots than gypsies myself.

    If northern Europeans around the periphery of the Baltic weren’t so well-behaved, they’d be almost as scary as blacks. They are big, tall intimidating people.

    • Replies: @BB753
    For some reason, even Blacks in Europe aren´t that impresssive physically. If you´re looking for tall, burly European men, look no further than Serbia, Croatia and Montenegro. They are nearly as tall as the Dutch with twice the strenght and ten times the balls.
  7. This is an old liberal saw used to cut down trees they wanted cut down in the past.

    In order to open European-derived societies to the immigration that would transform them, it was necessary to discredit racial solidarity and commitment to tradition. This was the basic purpose of a group of intellectuals known as the Frankfurt School. What is properly known as the Institute of Social Research was founded in Frankfurt, Germany, during the Weimar period. Most of its staff emigrated to the United States and the institute reconstituted itself at UC Berkeley. The organization was headed by Max Horkheimer, and its most influential members were T.W. Adorno, Erich Fromm, and Herbert Marcuse. Horkheimer made no secret of the partisan nature of the institute’s activities: “Research would be able here to transform itself directly into propaganda,” he wrote. (Italics in the original.)

    The “bible” was a book The Authoritarian Personality, which was written by Adorno and appeared in 1950. It was part of a series called Studies in Prejudice, produced by the Frankfurt school, which included titles like Anti-Semitism and Emotional Disorder.

    The book’s purpose is to make every group affiliation sound as if it were a sign of mental disorder. Everything from patriotism to religion to family – and race – loyalty are signs of a dangerous and defective “authoritarian personality.” Because drawing distinctions between different groups is illegitimate, all group loyalties – even close family ties! – are “prejudice.” As Christopher Lasch has written, the book leads to the conclusion that prejudice “could be eradicated only by subjecting the American people to what amounted to collective psychotherapy – by treating them as inmates of an insane asylum.”

    The kind of group loyalty, respect for tradition, and consciousness of differences existent in “outside groups” is what Horkheimer and Adorno described as mental illness in gentiles. These writers adopted what eventually became a favorite Soviet tactic against dissidents: Anyone whose political views were different from theirs was insane. The Frankfurt school never criticized or even described other group identity – only that of gentiles: “behavior that is critical to other groups as a successful group evolutionary strategy is conceptualized as pathological in gentiles.”

    For these progessive intellectuals, Racism and xenophobia was also a sign of mental illness: They concluded that Christian self-denial and especially sexual repression caused hatred of others. The Frankfurt school was enthusiastic about psycho-analysis, according to which “Oedipal ambivalence toward the father and anal-sadistic relations in early childhood are the racists’s irrevocable inheritance.”

    So obviously any Christian group that would not embrace the Roma must be crazy with unresolved Oedipal repression.

    • Replies: @Big Bill

    These writers adopted what eventually became a favorite Soviet tactic against dissidents: Anyone whose political views were different from theirs was insane. ... So obviously any Christian group that would not embrace the Roma must be crazy with unresolved Oedipal repression.
     
    Freud and his cultists originated this technique. It isn't surprising that his acolytes and co-religionists transplanted it to America and Russia.
    , @Leftist conservative
    Mark Minter wrote:

    In order to open European-derived societies to the immigration that would transform them, it was necessary to discredit racial solidarity and commitment to tradition. This was the basic purpose of a group of intellectuals known as the Frankfurt School.

     

    Yes, modern day multiculturalism is quite similar to many of the ideas put forth by the Frankfurt School of academic thought. But you plucked one school of academic thought out of hundreds of similar academic schools of thought. All those schools of thought were out there, competing for attention and survival.

    Almost all academics are just working schlubs looking for their next grant. Most PhDs never even get a job as a professor. And most of those that do have to fight and claw for survival.

    The fact is that multiculturalism rose to the top because academics who wrote favorably about multiculturalism got grants and got jobs and got promotions. Why? Because multiculturalism makes the rich richer, and it increases corporate profits by increasing the supply of labor, thus depressing wages, and it increases the supply of consumers, thus increasing sales.

    Big Money selected multiculturalism for promotion to the top because multiculturalism serves the financial interests of Big Money. Money makes the world go round. Always has, always will.

    Those ideas of the Frankfurt School rose to the top not because of the professors, but because their ideas benefit big corporations and rich shareholders.
    , @WowJustWow
    They went to Columbia University, not Berkeley. Which probably accounts for why Columbia is the nuttiest of all the Ivies.
  8. How come the greater that you are exposed to/ know an oppressed minority (fill in the blank), the greater you are prejudiced?

    Isn’t that called experience?

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    How come the greater that you are exposed to/ know an oppressed minority (fill in the blank), the greater you are prejudiced? Isn’t that called experience?

    It could be called postjudiced.
    Urban Dictionary-- Postjudice: Not liking a person or group with a good reason. Having had experience with a person, you do not like that person. A rational generalization.

  9. Is it possible that immigration from Africa is taking work away from the Roma. I thought for centuries the Roma did crummy jobs Europeans didnt want to do. Roma on welfare can only occur after the welfare state.

    From wikipedia:
    Around 1360, a fiefdom, called the Feudum Acinganorum was established in Corfu, which mainly used Romani serfs and to which the Romani on the island were subservient.

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    I think Gypsies were simply less of a pest in pre-modern life. When most Europeans lived mostly in small rural villages there wasn't that much to steal, and there wasn't any anonymity. Gypsies could survive by trading, maybe petty theft here and there, or playing music to entertain - basically all non-respectable outsider roles, but not necessarily criminal. There is a reason they were romanticized in the pre-industrial age. The problem began with industrialization. Gypsies don't fit well into the regimented, bureacratic societies that began to spring up in the 19th century, and they soon realized there was easy money to be made if you can exploit the cracks in that society. I suspect modern Gypsy criminality is a common sense evolutionary response to a changing environment.
    , @Romanian
    There are actually jobs that traditionally the Roma do, but modern commerce has kind of put a stop to them. You can see it reflected in some of their family names. If you meet one named "Căldărar" or a variation like Kaldera, it usually means that his ancestors (sometimes right up until today) would work copper to make and repair pots and pans. Their nomadic lifestyles made them good traveling tinkerers, stopping near a village and getting work as day laborers, specialized craftsmen (goldsmithing, silversmithing, working copper, tin etc) or as musicians for weddings and other parties. Some of the most talented musicians, even without formal training or even basic training like reading sheet music, are Roma.

    There is a new Romanian movie out, called "Aferim!", which is about a 19th century Roma slave in the Romanian principalities. Haven't seen it yet, but it's supposed to be a very good period piece.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4374460/
  10. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    I know someone who has spent their life trying to help Roma children in Romania. Motivated by religion he is perhaps the most moral, and kindest, person I have ever met. Despite the fact that he devotes his life to this cause he has become pretty cynical about the Roma and recognizes that little has been achieved. On the other hand those kind of setbacks just cause Jesuits to double down.
    It’s also important to remember that just because you believe that a gap might always exist between the Roma and other Europeans doesn’t mean this gap can’t be narrowed and doesn’t justify the extremely widespread persecution of Roma people in Romania.

    • Replies: @BurplesonAFB
    I don't think people are offput by the difference in Roma potential vs the host, but rather the extreme disrespect which they afford to other persons and property.
    , @Anonymous
    There is no persecution of gypsies in Romania.
  11. That might be the worst phonics for “Nyiregyhaza” I have ever seen. Try “Nyir-edge-haza”. Here’s a video about the town and their new Lego factory. Naturally, the name of the town is frequently enunciated. Hungarian is a wonderful language and one thing you will notice is that they hold their vowels, they don’t diphthong the way we do.

    Roma in Hungary, most of Eastern Europe, and yes, in the US, have a bad reputation and there’s a reason for it. But I don’t think it’s genetic, and I haven’t known anyone who does. The Roma I encountered in Hungary looked pretty much like everyone else — as they do in States, incidentally. But they do have an outsider/insider mentality that presents some unusual senses of entitlement. It reminds me of a riot in the East Bay in 1968 when college students were breaking into stores to “liberate” the food.

    On the other hand, Hungarians are very good in assimilating anyone who wants to be Hungarian by nationality, that’s why there are so many Hungarians with some Jewish ancestry. (Incidentally, usually secular or Catholic and hyper-nationalistic.)

    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    Roma in Hungary, most of Eastern Europe, and yes, in the US, have a bad reputation and there’s a reason for it. But I don’t think it’s genetic, and I haven’t known anyone who does. The Roma I encountered in Hungary looked pretty much like everyone else — as they do in States, incidentally.
     
    Not what I see. They certainly don't look like "everyone else" in the US. (I.e. compared to the mostly NW European mix that is typical of US whites.)

    Granted Roma are mixed and some can look pretty normally European. But others clearly look Indian--which is what they are, a NW Indian tribal group mixed with the genes they picked up along the way.

    And we don't know each other but I certainly think it's "genetic". They--like the Jews--are an outgroup hostile, endogamous population. They have not--to my knowledge--religiously formalized that outgroup hostility, but it's there in spades as a cultural requirement. Like Jews, Roma who did not have it and were "boiled off" into the majority population. Those who are still Roma are selectively--i.e. the descendants of--those who preferred to be Roma, and were happy\successful in Roma activities (theft, scamming, itinerate life, etc.). And unlike the Jews their culture\economic niche did *not* select for literacy (ergo IQ in the modern sense). Roma--who might be quite "street smart" in the sense of scams and just getting along-- tend to be extremely "not bright" in academic sense.

    Bottom line evolution didn't stop but speeded up. What's been going on in Europe the last couple thousand years--specifically what social relations people had (e.g. manorialism, guilds, clans, town life, separate tribes) and how people made a living (farming, herding, crafts, trading, raiding, scamming, etc.) has made a huge imprint on all Europeans. Even where the base DNA isn't wildly different--e.g. Scot highlanders, "Scots-Irish" borders, English lowlanders--not quite the same people despite some mixing. The endogamous groups like the Jews or Gypsies ... very different people--not just culturally but in their DNA.
  12. Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factor"] says:

    Let’s have some brain science to understand why Jews in France are wary of Muslims.
    Must be something wrong with Jewish brains.

    This sounds like a kind of perversion of Platonism.

    The perfect ideals are all in the brains, and if white folks are not living up to perfect PC ideals, the problem must be with forms inside their brains than things in reality.

    Scientists pick brains while gypsies pick pockets.

  13. @syonredux

    The Roma who do escape the settlements often shed their ethnic identities — either deliberately or by default. “So for example, the dominant group may accept a Roma who comes from the settlement and somehow makes it into college,” Kende says. “But it’s not, ‘Oh, now this changes my perception of Roma.’ It’s, ‘Oh, well that person is not really Roma.’ And then what you have left is, the word ‘Roma’ becomes shorthand for ‘dirty, lazy, thief.’ ” Those norms are so pervasive, she said, that the Roma themselves have adopted them.
     
    Sounds like Ron Unz's theory that there are tons of successful Mestizo Hispanics.We just don't notice them because they have all assimilated into White Anglo society:"See, all those stalled third generation Hispanic Mestizos? They are just the dregs, the ones who couldn't make it! All the successful ones have non-Spanish names and are married to Irish people, etc"

    Sounds like Ron Unz’s theory that there are tons of successful Mestizo Hispanics.We just don’t notice them because they have all assimilated into White Anglo society ..

    I guess the most extreme case of this sort is Dan Peña, who went from Los Angeles to living in a Scottish castle:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_S._Pe%C3%B1a,_Sr.

    He runs his “hassle in the castle” business boot camps there.

  14. Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factor"] says:

    I burned my hand the other day and have been careful about using the stove since.

    Why am I like this? I need a scientist to look into my brain to see why I’m not relaxed around hot stoves.

    • Replies: @Truth
    "I burned my hand the other day and have been careful about using the stove since.

    Why am I like this? I need a scientist to look into my brain to see why I’m not relaxed around hot stoves."

    I think an oven mitt would probably suffice.
  15. @The most deplorable one

    The Roma are the world’s most remarkable example of in-group morality producing a lack of empathy for the host populations
     
    I can think of another ...

    I can think of another …

    Teachers’ unions?

  16. Gusev by Anton Chekhov

    Assigned by my lefty high school English teacher as a cure for what he considered (correctly, it turns out) vapidly moralistic writing on my part. Good tale; some eerie echoes in Steve’s post.

  17. Leftist conservative [AKA "leftist conservative blogger"] says: • Website

    Ve haf vays of making you accept diversity!

  18. @Blobby5
    Thank god the state department hasn't thought to import a couple of million of them to the U.S. Probably just an oversight.

    We already have plenty of them. And they are pretty much all like their European cousins , at least the ones I encountered were .

  19. @Mark Minter
    This is an old liberal saw used to cut down trees they wanted cut down in the past.

    In order to open European-derived societies to the immigration that would transform them, it was necessary to discredit racial solidarity and commitment to tradition. This was the basic purpose of a group of intellectuals known as the Frankfurt School. What is properly known as the Institute of Social Research was founded in Frankfurt, Germany, during the Weimar period. Most of its staff emigrated to the United States and the institute reconstituted itself at UC Berkeley. The organization was headed by Max Horkheimer, and its most influential members were T.W. Adorno, Erich Fromm, and Herbert Marcuse. Horkheimer made no secret of the partisan nature of the institute’s activities: “Research would be able here to transform itself directly into propaganda,” he wrote. (Italics in the original.)

    The "bible" was a book The Authoritarian Personality, which was written by Adorno and appeared in 1950. It was part of a series called Studies in Prejudice, produced by the Frankfurt school, which included titles like Anti-Semitism and Emotional Disorder.

    The book’s purpose is to make every group affiliation sound as if it were a sign of mental disorder. Everything from patriotism to religion to family – and race – loyalty are signs of a dangerous and defective “authoritarian personality.” Because drawing distinctions between different groups is illegitimate, all group loyalties – even close family ties! – are “prejudice.” As Christopher Lasch has written, the book leads to the conclusion that prejudice “could be eradicated only by subjecting the American people to what amounted to collective psychotherapy – by treating them as inmates of an insane asylum.”

    The kind of group loyalty, respect for tradition, and consciousness of differences existent in "outside groups" is what Horkheimer and Adorno described as mental illness in gentiles. These writers adopted what eventually became a favorite Soviet tactic against dissidents: Anyone whose political views were different from theirs was insane. The Frankfurt school never criticized or even described other group identity – only that of gentiles: “behavior that is critical to other groups as a successful group evolutionary strategy is conceptualized as pathological in gentiles.”

    For these progessive intellectuals, Racism and xenophobia was also a sign of mental illness: They concluded that Christian self-denial and especially sexual repression caused hatred of others. The Frankfurt school was enthusiastic about psycho-analysis, according to which “Oedipal ambivalence toward the father and anal-sadistic relations in early childhood are the racists’s irrevocable inheritance.”

    So obviously any Christian group that would not embrace the Roma must be crazy with unresolved Oedipal repression.

    These writers adopted what eventually became a favorite Soviet tactic against dissidents: Anyone whose political views were different from theirs was insane. … So obviously any Christian group that would not embrace the Roma must be crazy with unresolved Oedipal repression.

    Freud and his cultists originated this technique. It isn’t surprising that his acolytes and co-religionists transplanted it to America and Russia.

  20. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The government instituted a busing program in Hungary? Is this being forced on them by the EU and NGOs? What about all these busybody NGOs that seem to be everywhere these days? There’s so many of them doing who knows what. Where is the money for them really coming from? I find it hard to believe that it’s all just from private donations. The witch-hunter himself is probably being funded by some grant money. Why work in a boring lab or office when one can travel around like a star? Not bad for someone with a track record of failure. Suicide bombers have a very high level of empathy, eh? Good thing everyone I know has zero levels of empathy, that’s probably why I’m still alive.
    If the Gypsies were to change then perceptions of them would also gradually change. There, now where is my grant money for that bit of wisdom? No magic machines needed and no animals get hurt in the process.

    • Replies: @George

    What about all these busybody NGOs that seem to be everywhere these days?
     
    Send them to Africa with contraceptives.
  21. bomag [AKA "doombuggy"] says:

    Our Overlords-in-training want to re-tool our brains so we will lie back and accept anything pointed our way.

    We should probably be retooling brains so that we are more suspicious, skeptical, and critical of those who want to be parasites on our social achievements…and those who want to re-tool our brains.

  22. My mother told me that when she was growing up on a farm in eastern Washington state near Palouse, that the gypsies would come through there now and then. Her father always put out something on the road by the farm to keep them from coming up and stealing something he actually wanted. She said it had to be some fairly good stuff or they would go ahead and steal from you because they wanted something better. She did say that they never stole from her family but families who didn’t put stuff out did report thefts.

  23. @anonymous
    The government instituted a busing program in Hungary? Is this being forced on them by the EU and NGOs? What about all these busybody NGOs that seem to be everywhere these days? There's so many of them doing who knows what. Where is the money for them really coming from? I find it hard to believe that it's all just from private donations. The witch-hunter himself is probably being funded by some grant money. Why work in a boring lab or office when one can travel around like a star? Not bad for someone with a track record of failure. Suicide bombers have a very high level of empathy, eh? Good thing everyone I know has zero levels of empathy, that's probably why I'm still alive.
    If the Gypsies were to change then perceptions of them would also gradually change. There, now where is my grant money for that bit of wisdom? No magic machines needed and no animals get hurt in the process.

    What about all these busybody NGOs that seem to be everywhere these days?

    Send them to Africa with contraceptives.

    • Replies: @colm
    No. Send them to Africa WITHOUT contraceptives so they would enjoy the diseases of their darlings.
  24. Anonymous • Disclaimer says: • Website

    My parents owned a service business. Every few months, the gypsies would show up, give our clerk a $20 bill, get their change, then insist they’d given her a $50 dollar bill, and a big scene would ensue, with the women screaming that we ripped them off. It always ended unsatisfactorily for them, but they ALWAYS came back a month or two later, with the same scam!

    Once three gypsy women showed up in their little peasant dresses, with four kids in tow. I was watching them from my office door as the “scam” proceeded. By the time they alerted the clerk that they’d given her a $50, not a $20, I’d noticed one of the kids wasn’t in the customer area. I thought, “I wonder if one of them went around the side of the building to our supply room?”

    I went around back, and sure enough, there was a 10 year old girl back in our supply area, begging our workers for money, while walking around inspecting what was there for the taking. I told her to get out, and don’t come back. She ran out.

    I went back to my office, noticed the girl hadn’t returned, went back to the supply room, and there she was, doing the same thing. I told her to get out, and if she came back, she’d be in big trouble. She ran out again.

    Went back to my office. She’s nowhere to be seen. I go back, and there she is. I bent down to her level, and told her if I came back again and found her there, I’d punch her in the chest so hard, her heart would splatter against the wall behind her. Her eyes got very wide, and she sprinted out.

    Went back to my office, and there she was in the customer area, holding onto her mother’s arm, who was still yelling at us about being “cheated.” Our eyes met, and it was clear I’d made a big impression in our final meeting.

    Of course, I never would have done anything to her, but she didn’t know that. Anyway, I’ve had other dealings with tribal gypsies, and it’s always the same stupid game, one way or another. The only thing they understand is a massive existential threat. Otherwise, you’re just talking noise to them, and they’ll never stop. That pretty much goes for all tribally oriented cultures.

    “I never would have invaded Russia if I’d known about all those tanks.”

    –A. Hitler

  25. I had some first-hand experience with Roma six years ago after Hungarian Roma started flooding the west-end of Toronto (this was before the Canadian government started cracking down on them and buying billboard space in Hungary to tell Roma that if they came to Canada, they wouldn’t be accepted as asylum seekers or refugees). I volunteered at a charity that distributed used furnishings to people coming out of women’s and homeless shelters, as well as some recent refugees.

    Whenever the Roma came around, it was an absolute nightmare. Each family would be allotted a certain number of items based on size and they were led around a warehouse by volunteer to choose the furniture that fit their apartment. Whenever a Roma family came, the kids would break off from the main group, go find pieces of furniture that they liked but had already been selected (but had yet to be shipped out) and rip off the shipping labels. After this, they’d rejoin Ma and Pa, and lead the hapless volunteer to their prized chest of drawers, which was of course suddenly available. The volunteers were a mix of all sorts,including a fair number of lefty-do-gooder types, but after a morning spent with the Roma, I swear every one of them would have been willing to join Jobbik.

    The slum-high-rises that they took over were even worse. I’ve been in pretty much every sleazy apartment complex in Toronto and each in one of them, you’d find people, whether black, white, Asian, whatever, who managed to conduct themselves with a level dignity far above their humble dwelling. Not in the Roma buildings. Every single time I went in one, you felt like a riot was on the verge of breaking out. Yelling, fighting, broken glass. School-aged kids everywhere, even during weekdays. Every single woman of child-bearing age either pregnant or toting around an infant. It was not pretty.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Are there any other ethnic groups where parents traditionally train their small children to be criminals?
    , @Massimo Heitor
    Sailer's posts on these topics are simultaneously acutely intelligent, hilarious, and ultimately terrifying. The comments are suprisingly high quality and filled with intelligence, humor, and interesting anecdotes. I loved LKM's experiences, for example.
  26. e says:

    In a similar vein, did you see this? (Think they’d greet notion of a pill that made gays straight with such an upbeat story?)

    (full article) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150319143414.htm

    Intro:
    Altering brain chemistry makes us more sensitive to inequality
    Date:
    March 19, 2015
    Source:
    University of California – Berkeley
    Summary:
    What if there were a pill that made you more compassionate? A new study finds that giving a drug that changes the neurochemical balance in the brain causes a greater willingness to engage in prosocial behaviors, such as ensuring that resources are divided more equally.

    • Replies: @ben tillman

    What if there were a pill that made you more compassionate? A new study finds that giving a drug that changes the neurochemical balance in the brain causes a greater willingness to engage in prosocial behaviors, such as ensuring that resources are divided more equally.
     
    You mean like ensuring that every people got its own country?
    , @TWS
    Read "The Giving Plague" by Brin.
  27. Speaking of stealing… Google University of Florida Shoplifting Study.

    Overall, blacks and Hispanics were no more likely than whites to steal merchandise. However, when race and gender were examined by subcategory, Hispanic females stole the most, shoplifting at more than seven times the rate of white females, he said.

    • Replies: @The most deplorable one

    Overall, blacks and Hispanics were no more likely than whites to steal merchandise. However, when race and gender were examined by subcategory, Hispanic females stole the most, shoplifting at more than seven times the rate of white females, he said.
     
    That doesn't pass the smell test. For that to be the case white males would have to shoplift at some number of times the rate of hispanic males for it to all balance out.
    , @Wally
    "Overall, blacks and Hispanics were no more likely than whites to steal merchandise."

    Right, a 'university study' is always accurate and never biased against whites, never.
  28. Leftist conservative [AKA "leftist conservative blogger"] says: • Website
    @Mark Minter
    This is an old liberal saw used to cut down trees they wanted cut down in the past.

    In order to open European-derived societies to the immigration that would transform them, it was necessary to discredit racial solidarity and commitment to tradition. This was the basic purpose of a group of intellectuals known as the Frankfurt School. What is properly known as the Institute of Social Research was founded in Frankfurt, Germany, during the Weimar period. Most of its staff emigrated to the United States and the institute reconstituted itself at UC Berkeley. The organization was headed by Max Horkheimer, and its most influential members were T.W. Adorno, Erich Fromm, and Herbert Marcuse. Horkheimer made no secret of the partisan nature of the institute’s activities: “Research would be able here to transform itself directly into propaganda,” he wrote. (Italics in the original.)

    The "bible" was a book The Authoritarian Personality, which was written by Adorno and appeared in 1950. It was part of a series called Studies in Prejudice, produced by the Frankfurt school, which included titles like Anti-Semitism and Emotional Disorder.

    The book’s purpose is to make every group affiliation sound as if it were a sign of mental disorder. Everything from patriotism to religion to family – and race – loyalty are signs of a dangerous and defective “authoritarian personality.” Because drawing distinctions between different groups is illegitimate, all group loyalties – even close family ties! – are “prejudice.” As Christopher Lasch has written, the book leads to the conclusion that prejudice “could be eradicated only by subjecting the American people to what amounted to collective psychotherapy – by treating them as inmates of an insane asylum.”

    The kind of group loyalty, respect for tradition, and consciousness of differences existent in "outside groups" is what Horkheimer and Adorno described as mental illness in gentiles. These writers adopted what eventually became a favorite Soviet tactic against dissidents: Anyone whose political views were different from theirs was insane. The Frankfurt school never criticized or even described other group identity – only that of gentiles: “behavior that is critical to other groups as a successful group evolutionary strategy is conceptualized as pathological in gentiles.”

    For these progessive intellectuals, Racism and xenophobia was also a sign of mental illness: They concluded that Christian self-denial and especially sexual repression caused hatred of others. The Frankfurt school was enthusiastic about psycho-analysis, according to which “Oedipal ambivalence toward the father and anal-sadistic relations in early childhood are the racists’s irrevocable inheritance.”

    So obviously any Christian group that would not embrace the Roma must be crazy with unresolved Oedipal repression.

    Mark Minter wrote:

    In order to open European-derived societies to the immigration that would transform them, it was necessary to discredit racial solidarity and commitment to tradition. This was the basic purpose of a group of intellectuals known as the Frankfurt School.

    Yes, modern day multiculturalism is quite similar to many of the ideas put forth by the Frankfurt School of academic thought. But you plucked one school of academic thought out of hundreds of similar academic schools of thought. All those schools of thought were out there, competing for attention and survival.

    Almost all academics are just working schlubs looking for their next grant. Most PhDs never even get a job as a professor. And most of those that do have to fight and claw for survival.

    The fact is that multiculturalism rose to the top because academics who wrote favorably about multiculturalism got grants and got jobs and got promotions. Why? Because multiculturalism makes the rich richer, and it increases corporate profits by increasing the supply of labor, thus depressing wages, and it increases the supply of consumers, thus increasing sales.

    Big Money selected multiculturalism for promotion to the top because multiculturalism serves the financial interests of Big Money. Money makes the world go round. Always has, always will.

    Those ideas of the Frankfurt School rose to the top not because of the professors, but because their ideas benefit big corporations and rich shareholders.

  29. @LKM
    I had some first-hand experience with Roma six years ago after Hungarian Roma started flooding the west-end of Toronto (this was before the Canadian government started cracking down on them and buying billboard space in Hungary to tell Roma that if they came to Canada, they wouldn't be accepted as asylum seekers or refugees). I volunteered at a charity that distributed used furnishings to people coming out of women's and homeless shelters, as well as some recent refugees.

    Whenever the Roma came around, it was an absolute nightmare. Each family would be allotted a certain number of items based on size and they were led around a warehouse by volunteer to choose the furniture that fit their apartment. Whenever a Roma family came, the kids would break off from the main group, go find pieces of furniture that they liked but had already been selected (but had yet to be shipped out) and rip off the shipping labels. After this, they'd rejoin Ma and Pa, and lead the hapless volunteer to their prized chest of drawers, which was of course suddenly available. The volunteers were a mix of all sorts,including a fair number of lefty-do-gooder types, but after a morning spent with the Roma, I swear every one of them would have been willing to join Jobbik.

    The slum-high-rises that they took over were even worse. I've been in pretty much every sleazy apartment complex in Toronto and each in one of them, you'd find people, whether black, white, Asian, whatever, who managed to conduct themselves with a level dignity far above their humble dwelling. Not in the Roma buildings. Every single time I went in one, you felt like a riot was on the verge of breaking out. Yelling, fighting, broken glass. School-aged kids everywhere, even during weekdays. Every single woman of child-bearing age either pregnant or toting around an infant. It was not pretty.

    Are there any other ethnic groups where parents traditionally train their small children to be criminals?

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    In the Middle East, some would cripple their children so they could beg. It's catching on in China, too.

    And the worst stage mother ever? Mr Peabody claimed that Sherman's mother had him fixed, presumably to keep the checks coming in.

    Let's hope he was joking!
    , @Lot

    Are there any other ethnic groups where parents traditionally train their small children to be criminals?
     
    Yes:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers

    Further down it says, despite Gypsie origin myths, they are ethnic Irish who separated from the rest of the population 1000 years ago.

    The UK government considers them a separate ethnic group from the Irish when they compile their ethnic group statistics.
    , @Mike
    The Bushes?
    , @donut
    I had an acquaintance who worked at a Safeway in an a neighborhood that was mainly Negro in it's make up . Lots of theft as you would expect . According to him mothers would direct their children on what to steal and had to be watched as closely as the adults.

    A good movie from the last century about the Irish Travelers in the US was "Traveller" with Bill Paxton and Mark Wahlberg

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120366/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_35
    , @Anonymous
    Blacks.
    , @Greenstalk
    Depends on your definition of "criminal". Ethnic groups which prey on other ethnic groups do not see themselves as engaging in criminal activity. According to their code of conduct you're only a criminal if you rip off members of your own tribe. They don't recognize law or morality which is applicable equally to everyone.

    You'll notice that this mindset describes all the various factions which make up the Democratic Party just as much as it does the Roma.
    , @Andrew
    Do the professional beggar castes of India count? Of course, they are the same ethnic group as Gypsies.
  30. HH says:

    Governments and nongovernmental organizations have spent decades perfecting the art of collective persuasion — getting people to do things that are good for them and for society. They have persuaded us to eat more vegetables

    Didn’t we just learn that the US government probably contributed to tens of millions of early deaths by pushing a carb-based diet?

  31. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @North Carolina Resident
    Speaking of stealing... Google University of Florida Shoplifting Study.


    Overall, blacks and Hispanics were no more likely than whites to steal merchandise. However, when race and gender were examined by subcategory, Hispanic females stole the most, shoplifting at more than seven times the rate of white females, he said.

    Overall, blacks and Hispanics were no more likely than whites to steal merchandise. However, when race and gender were examined by subcategory, Hispanic females stole the most, shoplifting at more than seven times the rate of white females, he said.

    That doesn’t pass the smell test. For that to be the case white males would have to shoplift at some number of times the rate of hispanic males for it to all balance out.

    • Replies: @Lot
    That's not right, think it through.

    The ranking is

    1. Hispanic whites
    2. Blacks, all whites
    3. Non-hispanic whites
    , @Jenny

    white males would have to shoplift at some number of times the rate of hispanic males for it to all balance out.

     

    Do white males shop?

    I don't want to overstate the case, but seriously. When they do go to a store, they get in and get out. My son is 17 and has his own vehicle. He buys fast food and gas, and almost nothing else. He probably doesn't go in a store but once a month or less. My fifty something husband is the same.

    What few white males there are that spend any time shopping may actually steal at the rate that some minorities do for all I know.

    My main beef with these damned studies is that they never ever ever include Asians. It is like Asians don't exist.

    I even noticed that the big marriage study went so far as to do a big study on marriage and how the college educated had different marriage rates, blah, blah, but did not include Asians.
    Hello! Little miss researcher lady, you are on a freaking college campus. Probably half the people in your own office are Asians and it doesn't occur to you to include Asians in your study of college educated people?

    Why are academics so clueless? Is it because is pays to be clueless?
    , @The most deplorable one
    News item on the US Shoplifting study but it does not contain a link to the actual study and seems very obsessed with busting stereotypes ...
  32. @Bob
    How come the greater that you are exposed to/ know an oppressed minority (fill in the blank), the greater you are prejudiced?

    Isn't that called experience?

    How come the greater that you are exposed to/ know an oppressed minority (fill in the blank), the greater you are prejudiced? Isn’t that called experience?

    It could be called postjudiced.
    Urban Dictionary– Postjudice: Not liking a person or group with a good reason. Having had experience with a person, you do not like that person. A rational generalization.

    • Replies: @Bob
    Rationality has literally become a crime.
  33. Of course, outside of perhaps Spain

    No, inside Spain too. I’ve seen child-pickpocket rings targeting tourists, for example. Not subtle either, as in have 10 tots swarm around a single person, plus lots of street begging.

    Spain is richer than Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Slovakia, and they are a much smaller percentage of the population, so they can be more entertained and blase about gypsie culture.

    • Replies: @donut
    Naples too , exactly as you describe it . "swarms".
    , @slumber_j
    Actual Spanish gypsies tend not to be as criminal as gypsies elsewhere. Twenty years ago, one didn't see the behavior you describe in Spain, ever. But thanks to metastatic Schengenization, a lot of gypsies from Romania and elsewhere have moved in, so Spain now has two distinct gypsy populations. Hooray.
  34. @Steve Sailer
    Are there any other ethnic groups where parents traditionally train their small children to be criminals?

    In the Middle East, some would cripple their children so they could beg. It’s catching on in China, too.

    And the worst stage mother ever? Mr Peabody claimed that Sherman’s mother had him fixed, presumably to keep the checks coming in.

    Let’s hope he was joking!

    • Replies: @donut
    I spent a lot of time in the ME in the 70's ; Egypt , Bahrain , Oman , The Emirates when Dubai was still undeveloped , Iran , Kuwait , Syria , Saudi and Sudan . The only place I witnessed that type of behavior was Pakistan . And that's not the ME .
    Not related to the above but I ate food from the street vendors in most of those countries and the only place I got sick was in Sri Lanka , Ceylon at the time . So many of us got sick they threatened us with quarantine . We'd been warned about the water and nobody drank any but we all had ice cubes in our drinks . DUH .
  35. @Steve Sailer
    Are there any other ethnic groups where parents traditionally train their small children to be criminals?

    Are there any other ethnic groups where parents traditionally train their small children to be criminals?

    Yes:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers

    Further down it says, despite Gypsie origin myths, they are ethnic Irish who separated from the rest of the population 1000 years ago.

    The UK government considers them a separate ethnic group from the Irish when they compile their ethnic group statistics.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Are Irish Travellers and Gypsies examples of convergent cultural evolution? Has anybody done a compare and contrast on the two groups?
  36. @Lot

    ‘Hungarians: don’t steal!’ 
     
    I wonder if, along the Austrian border with Hungary, "Hungarians" is a more delicate way of saying "Gypsies," the same way "Romanians" is in the UK.

    I wonder if, along the Austrian border with Hungary, “Hungarians” is a more delicate way of saying “Gypsies,” the same way “Romanians” is in the UK

    I thought the same thing.

  37. @The most deplorable one

    Overall, blacks and Hispanics were no more likely than whites to steal merchandise. However, when race and gender were examined by subcategory, Hispanic females stole the most, shoplifting at more than seven times the rate of white females, he said.
     
    That doesn't pass the smell test. For that to be the case white males would have to shoplift at some number of times the rate of hispanic males for it to all balance out.

    That’s not right, think it through.

    The ranking is

    1. Hispanic whites
    2. Blacks, all whites
    3. Non-hispanic whites

    • Replies: @ben tillman

    That’s not right, think it through.

    The ranking is

    1. Hispanic whites
    2. Blacks, all whites
    3. Non-hispanic whites
     
    That doesn't work.
    , @The most deplorable one
    Did you miss the part about:

    Overall, blacks and Hispanics were no more likely than whites to steal merchandise.
     
    That is, they either had equal likelihood of stealing merchandise, or whites had a higher likelihood of stealing merchandise.

    Are you sure you thought it through? Perhaps you should spell it out some more.
  38. @Lot

    Are there any other ethnic groups where parents traditionally train their small children to be criminals?
     
    Yes:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers

    Further down it says, despite Gypsie origin myths, they are ethnic Irish who separated from the rest of the population 1000 years ago.

    The UK government considers them a separate ethnic group from the Irish when they compile their ethnic group statistics.

    Are Irish Travellers and Gypsies examples of convergent cultural evolution? Has anybody done a compare and contrast on the two groups?

    • Replies: @Lot
    I would say so.

    I also forgot that India has a ton of individual criminal castes:

    The most famous of them:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee

    A more gypsie type tribe:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narikurava

    Another one:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdal_%28caste%29

    There are also Romani-related tribes everywhere between India and Europe.
    , @CJ
    The Irish Savant blog, whose proprietor sometimes comments here, has some interesting entries on Irish Travellers. One such:

    Such Moral People

    Another Irish blogger on the subject:

    Travellers are not an Ethnic Group
    , @Laban Tall
    "Has anybody done a compare and contrast on the two groups?"


    George Borrow, Victorian writer, polymath and eccentric :

    https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/b/borrow/george/wild/chapter14.html


    We continued our way, and presently saw marks of a fire in some grass by the side of the road.

    “Have the Gipsiaid been there?” said I to my guide.

    “Hardly, sir; I should rather think that the the Gwyddelaid (Irish) have been camping there lately.”

    “The Gwyddeliad?”

    “Yes, sir, the vagabond Gwyddeliad, who at present infest these parts much, and do much more harm than the Gipsiaid ever did.”

    “What do you mean by the Gipsiaid?”

    “Dark, handsome people, sir, who occasionally used to come about in vans and carts, the men buying and selling horses, and sometimes tinkering, whilst the women told fortunes.”

    “And they have ceased to come about?”

    “Nearly so, sir; I believe they have been frightened away by the Gwyddelod.”

    “What kind of people are these Gwyddelod?

    “Savage, brutish people, sir; in general without shoes and stockings, with coarse features and heads of hair like mops.”

    “How do they live?”

    “The men tinker a little, sir, but more frequently plunder. The women tell fortunes, and steal whenever they can.”

    “They live something like the Gipsiaid.”

    “Something, sir; but the hen Gipsiaid were gentlefolks in comparison.”

    “You think the Gipsiaid have been frightened away by the Gwyddelians?”

    “I do, sir; the Gwyddelod made their appearance in these parts about twenty years ago, and since then the Gipsiaid have been rarely seen.”

    “Are these Gwyddelod poor?”

    “By no means, sir; they make large sums by plundering and other means, with which, ’tis said, they retire at last to their own country or America, where they buy land and settle down.”
     

  39. @The most deplorable one

    Overall, blacks and Hispanics were no more likely than whites to steal merchandise. However, when race and gender were examined by subcategory, Hispanic females stole the most, shoplifting at more than seven times the rate of white females, he said.
     
    That doesn't pass the smell test. For that to be the case white males would have to shoplift at some number of times the rate of hispanic males for it to all balance out.

    white males would have to shoplift at some number of times the rate of hispanic males for it to all balance out.

    Do white males shop?

    I don’t want to overstate the case, but seriously. When they do go to a store, they get in and get out. My son is 17 and has his own vehicle. He buys fast food and gas, and almost nothing else. He probably doesn’t go in a store but once a month or less. My fifty something husband is the same.

    What few white males there are that spend any time shopping may actually steal at the rate that some minorities do for all I know.

    My main beef with these damned studies is that they never ever ever include Asians. It is like Asians don’t exist.

    I even noticed that the big marriage study went so far as to do a big study on marriage and how the college educated had different marriage rates, blah, blah, but did not include Asians.
    Hello! Little miss researcher lady, you are on a freaking college campus. Probably half the people in your own office are Asians and it doesn’t occur to you to include Asians in your study of college educated people?

    Why are academics so clueless? Is it because is pays to be clueless?

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    My main beef with these damned studies is that they never ever ever include Asians. It is like Asians don’t exist.
     
    It's because they don't exist.

    You must be referring to "lily-whites": http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/asian.htm

    Asians are now white.

    Don't believe me? A recent MSNBC news headline announced a "Plunge in Minority University Enrollment" at the University of California, with UC Berkeley reporting that "minority admissions had declined 61 percent." Actually, the total percentage of racial minority students at Berkeley, Asians included, fell from 57% to 49%. If you exclude the burgeoning group of people who decline to state their race, the minority percentage fell only three percentage points, from 61% to 58%.

    The drop was exclusively among blacks, Hispanics, and American Indians. Asians, who make up less than 10% of the California population, apparently aren't a "minority."

    Or listen to former California Chief Justice Rose Bird. Last year, she wrote a commentary saying that, without race preferences, the UC system would be "nothing more than a group of elitist, `lily white´ institutions." A coorganizer of Jesse Jackson's recent march in favor of race preferences called UC Berkeley's law school, whose entering class last year was 20% minority, including 14% Asian, "lily-white." Asians aren't just white: They are lily-white.
     
  40. Irish Tinkers … they do something with metal, right? Gypsies in Eastern Europe made a fair amount of money stealing metal from state-owned factories after 1989, like low-rent Marc Riches.

    In the Arab world, blacksmithery was often reserved for blacks.

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes? Granted, the Gypsies are from India a long time ago. But it seems odd.

    • Replies: @Lot

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes?
     
    I don't think that's the case.

    Tinkerers and blacksmiths weren't the same thing. That's why Smith, Schmidt, Fiero, Ferrero, Herrera, etc are mainstream names in Europe.

    Gypsie tinkerers would specialize in scavenging and fixing metal things.

    In the case of Arabs dominated lands, all the hard labor was reserved for other groups. But, say, a Slav or Greek had other uses besides the most dangerous and unpleasant work, hammering iron in a hot climate.
    , @SPMoore8
    You mean that societies are so configured that a moocher element must inevitably emerge? Possible.

    Except reading about the Irish Travellers I am almost certain that they derive culturally from Roma (Gypsies). How else would they have numerous Romany words in their lexicon?

    It would be interesting to do an intersection of history, linguistics, and genetics to see how this group actually involved. For the time being, I will consider the Travellers at least culturally associated with Gypsies.

    Incidentally, they show up on TV shows but not by name, which is why I guess you don't hear a lot of hue and cry about prejudice. "Criminal Minds" and "CSI Criminal Intent" are two shows that I can recall dealing with Gypsies in all but name.

    In the Northeast where I live now they are notorious scam artists at stores. I know a lot of people in low and mid level retail and they seem to come in groups and you will hear many scam stories and then they go away. It's periodic. I also know of a number of settled Gypsies, usually of Slovak origin (connection to Hungary, tedious to relate) and they generally live in trailer parks or isolated homes on back roads and specialize in things like knife grinding and car repair. I don't know "how" Gypsy they are, because actually it's a broad cultural spectrum. I have generally positive impressions, actually, but then I've never worked in retail.
    , @AshTon
    We know that lead may cause crime. I wonder if working a lot with copper, tin, iron do the same - except for a whole occupational class, rather than a geographic area.
    , @Truth

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes? Granted, the Gypsies are from India a long time ago. But it seems odd.
     
    How about this one:

    "because being around fire 12-hours a day is hot as fuck in a hot-ass country, and nobody wanted to do it."
    , @Twinkie

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes?
     
    Among Japanese sword-makers, at least, the endogamous pressure was both internal and external. Meaning, outsiders considered working with hot ovens and molten metal very hard work indeed, not something worthy of those who were upwardly mobile (rich farmers intent on elevating their children to upper classes) and, at the same time, those inside the sword-making "caste" tended to encourage in-group marriages to preserve the secrets and know-how within a small, trusted group.
    , @Romanian
    I can see a number of explanations. The first is that a lot of the metalworking was occasional and incidental. The Travelers (and, as I explained in another post below, also the Roma) ended up doing a lot of the work for towns too small to have their own blacksmith. You needed a new pot or an old one repaired, you needed some jewelry readjusted etc. They wouldn't be making swords (maybe horseshoes), that would be for the official and state sanctioned blacksmiths. Neither would they be making high value items, because most of the demand is concentrated in a few places and it doesn't pay to wander around with precious things like gems on your person. Also, their status might be affected by handling on the part low status people. Metal also tended to be reasonably valuable for its size, easy to steal and having skills to modify it meant that you were less likely to get caught or to find the most profitable way of pawning it off in the age before the professional fence.

    The second is that status is conferred by land, and how restricting its ownership by outsiders was an easy way of denying them social respectability and maintaining otherness (like Jews in many parts of Europe, only Jews turned to intellectual labor to compensate). Eastern European literature is full of references to the love of land, the ennobling work of a farmer and his wholesome values, as well as the social status conferred in the small village by being a reasonably well off farmer. It's why agricultural redistribution from boyar estates (worked by serfs or tenants) and peasant support and values constituted the backbone of big (conservative) parties almost everywhere in Eastern Europe before communism destroyed the local peasant, materially and morally.

    The seminal novel "Ion", which is the first objective novel in Romanian literature, is about a peasant man who loves another but seduces the daughter of a rich man and threatens to announces it the world so they would have to marry her to him (and get a huge dowry). The author was inspired by witnessing a peasant man randomly and passionately (like a lover) kissing his land after coming back from church in his Sunday best.

    FYI There was even an openly gypsy king in the Moldovan voievodate at a time when the gypsy population (still called that) was in slavery. His mother was an actual Romanian, so his father must have been a stud to transgress social boundaries like that. This would be a good time for me to recommend you check out the movie "Aferim!" on a Roma slave in the 19th century.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C8%98tefan_R%C4%83zvan

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4374460/
    , @IBC

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes?

     

    Around the world, weren't many occupations traditionally performed only by certain groups? Compared with other areas, India probably developed a more elaborate scheme for this thanks to its greater population and levels of group competition. Key aspects of Hinduism seem to reflect this.

    And as Jared Diamond likes to point out, having metal weapons gives you a big advantage over people with only stone and wood. Initially, I can see how early bronze or iron workers would have guarded trade secrets in order to protect their status and livelihood. Forming an endogamous caste may have been one way to do that. A sanctioned caste, similar to the medieval guilds, may also have made it easier for elites to take a cut on the weapons trade and control their rivals' access to it. Governments still do this --think security clearances and nuclear treaties.

    Incidentally, in Journey Without Maps, I think Graham Greene describes how in certain parts of Liberia, the village blacksmith is the one who also runs the "bush schools" where adolescent males are initiated as adults. In parts of East Africa, the men who operate traditional forges, sing overtly sexual songs while stoking the enclosed smelting fire through long tubes. The forge is thought of as female. With that in mind, maybe in West Africa there's an idea that there's some sort of esoteric fertility knowledge that only blacksmiths really know, and that's why they're the ones conducting the male initiations. I'm just hypothesizing and perhaps I've mixed up some details.

    Also, I'm not sure if this was mentioned, but unlike some other historically persecuted minority groups, don't the Roma tend to practice the same religion (at least nominally) as most of the people around them?

    , @Brutusale
    In America the Irish Travellers are more about driveway sealing scams.
  41. @e
    In a similar vein, did you see this? (Think they'd greet notion of a pill that made gays straight with such an upbeat story?)

    (full article) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150319143414.htm

    Intro:
    Altering brain chemistry makes us more sensitive to inequality
    Date:
    March 19, 2015
    Source:
    University of California - Berkeley
    Summary:
    What if there were a pill that made you more compassionate? A new study finds that giving a drug that changes the neurochemical balance in the brain causes a greater willingness to engage in prosocial behaviors, such as ensuring that resources are divided more equally.

    What if there were a pill that made you more compassionate? A new study finds that giving a drug that changes the neurochemical balance in the brain causes a greater willingness to engage in prosocial behaviors, such as ensuring that resources are divided more equally.

    You mean like ensuring that every people got its own country?

  42. @Steve Sailer
    Are Irish Travellers and Gypsies examples of convergent cultural evolution? Has anybody done a compare and contrast on the two groups?

    I would say so.

    I also forgot that India has a ton of individual criminal castes:

    The most famous of them:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee

    A more gypsie type tribe:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narikurava

    Another one:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdal_%28caste%29

    There are also Romani-related tribes everywhere between India and Europe.

  43. @Steve Sailer
    Irish Tinkers ... they do something with metal, right? Gypsies in Eastern Europe made a fair amount of money stealing metal from state-owned factories after 1989, like low-rent Marc Riches.

    In the Arab world, blacksmithery was often reserved for blacks.

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes? Granted, the Gypsies are from India a long time ago. But it seems odd.

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes?

    I don’t think that’s the case.

    Tinkerers and blacksmiths weren’t the same thing. That’s why Smith, Schmidt, Fiero, Ferrero, Herrera, etc are mainstream names in Europe.

    Gypsie tinkerers would specialize in scavenging and fixing metal things.

    In the case of Arabs dominated lands, all the hard labor was reserved for other groups. But, say, a Slav or Greek had other uses besides the most dangerous and unpleasant work, hammering iron in a hot climate.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Maybe cultures where "Smith" is the most average name tend to wind up doing better than ones where metalworking is some weird voodoo restricted by caste.
    , @Truth
    "In the case of Arabs dominated lands, all the hard labor was reserved for other groups. But, say, a Slav or Greek had other uses besides the most dangerous and unpleasant work, hammering iron in a hot climate."

    Yes, most often getting pregnant.
  44. @Lot
    That's not right, think it through.

    The ranking is

    1. Hispanic whites
    2. Blacks, all whites
    3. Non-hispanic whites

    That’s not right, think it through.

    The ranking is

    1. Hispanic whites
    2. Blacks, all whites
    3. Non-hispanic whites

    That doesn’t work.

  45. @Steve Sailer
    Irish Tinkers ... they do something with metal, right? Gypsies in Eastern Europe made a fair amount of money stealing metal from state-owned factories after 1989, like low-rent Marc Riches.

    In the Arab world, blacksmithery was often reserved for blacks.

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes? Granted, the Gypsies are from India a long time ago. But it seems odd.

    You mean that societies are so configured that a moocher element must inevitably emerge? Possible.

    Except reading about the Irish Travellers I am almost certain that they derive culturally from Roma (Gypsies). How else would they have numerous Romany words in their lexicon?

    It would be interesting to do an intersection of history, linguistics, and genetics to see how this group actually involved. For the time being, I will consider the Travellers at least culturally associated with Gypsies.

    Incidentally, they show up on TV shows but not by name, which is why I guess you don’t hear a lot of hue and cry about prejudice. “Criminal Minds” and “CSI Criminal Intent” are two shows that I can recall dealing with Gypsies in all but name.

    In the Northeast where I live now they are notorious scam artists at stores. I know a lot of people in low and mid level retail and they seem to come in groups and you will hear many scam stories and then they go away. It’s periodic. I also know of a number of settled Gypsies, usually of Slovak origin (connection to Hungary, tedious to relate) and they generally live in trailer parks or isolated homes on back roads and specialize in things like knife grinding and car repair. I don’t know “how” Gypsy they are, because actually it’s a broad cultural spectrum. I have generally positive impressions, actually, but then I’ve never worked in retail.

  46. @Lot

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes?
     
    I don't think that's the case.

    Tinkerers and blacksmiths weren't the same thing. That's why Smith, Schmidt, Fiero, Ferrero, Herrera, etc are mainstream names in Europe.

    Gypsie tinkerers would specialize in scavenging and fixing metal things.

    In the case of Arabs dominated lands, all the hard labor was reserved for other groups. But, say, a Slav or Greek had other uses besides the most dangerous and unpleasant work, hammering iron in a hot climate.

    Maybe cultures where “Smith” is the most average name tend to wind up doing better than ones where metalworking is some weird voodoo restricted by caste.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar


    Maybe cultures where “Smith” is the most average name tend to wind up doing better than ones where metalworking is some weird voodoo restricted by caste.

     

    Schmidt is second to Müller in Germany. Maybe malt and hops were more important than iron.
    , @Stan D Mute

    Maybe cultures where “Smith” is the most average name tend to wind up doing better than ones where metalworking is some weird voodoo restricted by caste.
     
    I guess during your Chicago years you never made it east of the border into Gary and the mills? They have historical photos in some admin buildings showing the men coming off shifts - they are coal black head to toe. They'd march through a row building where other workers would firehose the worst of it off before sending them through the gates and home. Even in today's infinitely cleaner mills and metal fab shops, one ends the day blowing gobs of black crap from his nose.

    Metal work is DIRTY. Uniquely dirty like oilfield work can be, except its every single day. But there's also a difference between a smith and a tinker. The tinker would have had a lot of lead exposure in the old days and I suspect he would look more like today's scrappers (Detroiters know all about scrappers) than mill workers or fab shop guys (plumbers, pipe fitters, welders, tool & die, etc).
  47. Brain Scientist Tries To Uncover Why Whites Can’t See The Emperor’s New Clothes

    • Replies: @Jonathan Silber
    That's great, Jenkem!
    , @Jonathan Silber
    Brain Scientist Tries To Uncover Why Whites Can’t See The Emperor’s New Clothes

    That's great, Jenkem!
  48. The untouchable classes of India and Japan developed from those who handled dead bodies, killed animals, and dealt with human waste. When this work ran thin, and since they were hated anyways and not related to the rest of society, turning into wandering criminals is not a big step.

    While not high status work in the West, butcher, mortician, and plumber are not taboo either, so their children married other peoples’ children and never hardened into a caste.

    Also, while in Europe the highly-fertility gentry accepted downward mobility as the price of a big family, in India high castes simply did not marry if their only option to afford a family was untouchable work.

  49. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @Lot
    That's not right, think it through.

    The ranking is

    1. Hispanic whites
    2. Blacks, all whites
    3. Non-hispanic whites

    Did you miss the part about:

    Overall, blacks and Hispanics were no more likely than whites to steal merchandise.

    That is, they either had equal likelihood of stealing merchandise, or whites had a higher likelihood of stealing merchandise.

    Are you sure you thought it through? Perhaps you should spell it out some more.

    • Replies: @Lot
    I read that as saying there is no statistically significant difference between "all whites" "hispanics of all races" and "blacks." There was a difference non-hispanic whites and hispanics.
  50. @SPMoore8
    That might be the worst phonics for "Nyiregyhaza" I have ever seen. Try "Nyir-edge-haza". Here's a video about the town and their new Lego factory. Naturally, the name of the town is frequently enunciated. Hungarian is a wonderful language and one thing you will notice is that they hold their vowels, they don't diphthong the way we do.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOjfQOsejl8

    Roma in Hungary, most of Eastern Europe, and yes, in the US, have a bad reputation and there's a reason for it. But I don't think it's genetic, and I haven't known anyone who does. The Roma I encountered in Hungary looked pretty much like everyone else -- as they do in States, incidentally. But they do have an outsider/insider mentality that presents some unusual senses of entitlement. It reminds me of a riot in the East Bay in 1968 when college students were breaking into stores to "liberate" the food.

    On the other hand, Hungarians are very good in assimilating anyone who wants to be Hungarian by nationality, that's why there are so many Hungarians with some Jewish ancestry. (Incidentally, usually secular or Catholic and hyper-nationalistic.)

    Roma in Hungary, most of Eastern Europe, and yes, in the US, have a bad reputation and there’s a reason for it. But I don’t think it’s genetic, and I haven’t known anyone who does. The Roma I encountered in Hungary looked pretty much like everyone else — as they do in States, incidentally.

    Not what I see. They certainly don’t look like “everyone else” in the US. (I.e. compared to the mostly NW European mix that is typical of US whites.)

    Granted Roma are mixed and some can look pretty normally European. But others clearly look Indian–which is what they are, a NW Indian tribal group mixed with the genes they picked up along the way.

    And we don’t know each other but I certainly think it’s “genetic”. They–like the Jews–are an outgroup hostile, endogamous population. They have not–to my knowledge–religiously formalized that outgroup hostility, but it’s there in spades as a cultural requirement. Like Jews, Roma who did not have it and were “boiled off” into the majority population. Those who are still Roma are selectively–i.e. the descendants of–those who preferred to be Roma, and were happy\successful in Roma activities (theft, scamming, itinerate life, etc.). And unlike the Jews their culture\economic niche did *not* select for literacy (ergo IQ in the modern sense). Roma–who might be quite “street smart” in the sense of scams and just getting along– tend to be extremely “not bright” in academic sense.

    Bottom line evolution didn’t stop but speeded up. What’s been going on in Europe the last couple thousand years–specifically what social relations people had (e.g. manorialism, guilds, clans, town life, separate tribes) and how people made a living (farming, herding, crafts, trading, raiding, scamming, etc.) has made a huge imprint on all Europeans. Even where the base DNA isn’t wildly different–e.g. Scot highlanders, “Scots-Irish” borders, English lowlanders–not quite the same people despite some mixing. The endogamous groups like the Jews or Gypsies … very different people–not just culturally but in their DNA.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    The endogamous groups like the Jews or Gypsies … very different people–not just culturally but in their DNA.
     
    What about the hyperendogamous, as in cousin marriage?

    I saw a stat that Christian Palestinians were about half as likely to inbreed as Moslem ones. And those Palestinian figures ranked high among Christian societies, but low among the Moslems.

    Are the Arab "nations" really hundreds of micronations?
    , @SPMoore8
    Not what I see. They certainly don’t look like “everyone else” in the US. (I.e. compared to the mostly NW European mix that is typical of US whites.)

    Depends on what Gypsies you know, I guess. They tend to be darker than northern Europeans, but I can't really tell them apart from Italians, Jews, Romanians, Armenians, Turks, or any number of East European nationalities (needless to say there are huge numbers of White Americans connected to the first two groups). Add the Irish Travellers to the mix, and you've got problems. I mean, I never looked at Charlie Chaplin and had my "Roma-dar" go off.

    But, OK, I'll mark it down that at least one person thinks that Gypsies are primarily genetic rather than cultural.
  51. In other words, in 1989 most Hungarians recognized that the Austrians had a point, and resolved to show them they were wrong by … behaving better.

    Maybe, but Austrian disdain for Hungarians goes back way further than that, and not often with much more justification than propping up fading Austrian self-esteem. Sort of like SWPL’s looking down on the American South.

    There are several statues of Empress Elizabeth (wife of Franz Joseph I) in Budapest. She’s celebrated for her (rare) affection for Hungary and Hungarians.

  52. @The most deplorable one

    The Roma are the world’s most remarkable example of in-group morality producing a lack of empathy for the host populations
     
    I can think of another ...

    It’s those Eskimos……

  53. @AnotherDad

    Roma in Hungary, most of Eastern Europe, and yes, in the US, have a bad reputation and there’s a reason for it. But I don’t think it’s genetic, and I haven’t known anyone who does. The Roma I encountered in Hungary looked pretty much like everyone else — as they do in States, incidentally.
     
    Not what I see. They certainly don't look like "everyone else" in the US. (I.e. compared to the mostly NW European mix that is typical of US whites.)

    Granted Roma are mixed and some can look pretty normally European. But others clearly look Indian--which is what they are, a NW Indian tribal group mixed with the genes they picked up along the way.

    And we don't know each other but I certainly think it's "genetic". They--like the Jews--are an outgroup hostile, endogamous population. They have not--to my knowledge--religiously formalized that outgroup hostility, but it's there in spades as a cultural requirement. Like Jews, Roma who did not have it and were "boiled off" into the majority population. Those who are still Roma are selectively--i.e. the descendants of--those who preferred to be Roma, and were happy\successful in Roma activities (theft, scamming, itinerate life, etc.). And unlike the Jews their culture\economic niche did *not* select for literacy (ergo IQ in the modern sense). Roma--who might be quite "street smart" in the sense of scams and just getting along-- tend to be extremely "not bright" in academic sense.

    Bottom line evolution didn't stop but speeded up. What's been going on in Europe the last couple thousand years--specifically what social relations people had (e.g. manorialism, guilds, clans, town life, separate tribes) and how people made a living (farming, herding, crafts, trading, raiding, scamming, etc.) has made a huge imprint on all Europeans. Even where the base DNA isn't wildly different--e.g. Scot highlanders, "Scots-Irish" borders, English lowlanders--not quite the same people despite some mixing. The endogamous groups like the Jews or Gypsies ... very different people--not just culturally but in their DNA.

    The endogamous groups like the Jews or Gypsies … very different people–not just culturally but in their DNA.

    What about the hyperendogamous, as in cousin marriage?

    I saw a stat that Christian Palestinians were about half as likely to inbreed as Moslem ones. And those Palestinian figures ranked high among Christian societies, but low among the Moslems.

    Are the Arab “nations” really hundreds of micronations?

  54. @Mark Minter
    This is an old liberal saw used to cut down trees they wanted cut down in the past.

    In order to open European-derived societies to the immigration that would transform them, it was necessary to discredit racial solidarity and commitment to tradition. This was the basic purpose of a group of intellectuals known as the Frankfurt School. What is properly known as the Institute of Social Research was founded in Frankfurt, Germany, during the Weimar period. Most of its staff emigrated to the United States and the institute reconstituted itself at UC Berkeley. The organization was headed by Max Horkheimer, and its most influential members were T.W. Adorno, Erich Fromm, and Herbert Marcuse. Horkheimer made no secret of the partisan nature of the institute’s activities: “Research would be able here to transform itself directly into propaganda,” he wrote. (Italics in the original.)

    The "bible" was a book The Authoritarian Personality, which was written by Adorno and appeared in 1950. It was part of a series called Studies in Prejudice, produced by the Frankfurt school, which included titles like Anti-Semitism and Emotional Disorder.

    The book’s purpose is to make every group affiliation sound as if it were a sign of mental disorder. Everything from patriotism to religion to family – and race – loyalty are signs of a dangerous and defective “authoritarian personality.” Because drawing distinctions between different groups is illegitimate, all group loyalties – even close family ties! – are “prejudice.” As Christopher Lasch has written, the book leads to the conclusion that prejudice “could be eradicated only by subjecting the American people to what amounted to collective psychotherapy – by treating them as inmates of an insane asylum.”

    The kind of group loyalty, respect for tradition, and consciousness of differences existent in "outside groups" is what Horkheimer and Adorno described as mental illness in gentiles. These writers adopted what eventually became a favorite Soviet tactic against dissidents: Anyone whose political views were different from theirs was insane. The Frankfurt school never criticized or even described other group identity – only that of gentiles: “behavior that is critical to other groups as a successful group evolutionary strategy is conceptualized as pathological in gentiles.”

    For these progessive intellectuals, Racism and xenophobia was also a sign of mental illness: They concluded that Christian self-denial and especially sexual repression caused hatred of others. The Frankfurt school was enthusiastic about psycho-analysis, according to which “Oedipal ambivalence toward the father and anal-sadistic relations in early childhood are the racists’s irrevocable inheritance.”

    So obviously any Christian group that would not embrace the Roma must be crazy with unresolved Oedipal repression.

    They went to Columbia University, not Berkeley. Which probably accounts for why Columbia is the nuttiest of all the Ivies.

  55. @The most deplorable one
    Did you miss the part about:

    Overall, blacks and Hispanics were no more likely than whites to steal merchandise.
     
    That is, they either had equal likelihood of stealing merchandise, or whites had a higher likelihood of stealing merchandise.

    Are you sure you thought it through? Perhaps you should spell it out some more.

    I read that as saying there is no statistically significant difference between “all whites” “hispanics of all races” and “blacks.” There was a difference non-hispanic whites and hispanics.

  56. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “Are Irish Travellers and Gypsies examples of convergent cultural evolution? Has anybody done a compare and contrast on the two groups?

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes? Granted, the Gypsies are from India a long time ago. But it seems odd.”

    There was a big to-do maybe a decade or so ago(?) when an American Irish Traveller was caught on a security camera waling the tar out of her kid. So there was a fair amount of discussion about the Travelers. She ended up giving an interesting interview on TV or radio…

    My recollection is the leading academic theory of their origins is that they were army “camp followers”. Not just women, but tinsmiths, coppersmiths, odd-jobers, etc.. The type of people who would could keep your army in pots and pans and similar things. Up until today, don’t they still travel in large covered wagons in some places? (In the US they seem to live in very well-to-do suburbs; they seem to have done quite well; don’t they often claim to be pavers?)

    I though the original Gypsies were the remains of an Indian army and its camp followers who invaded Iran and got progressively trapped into going ever more westward. So there could be a fair amount of similar cultural evolution. People who get used to living out of wagons, moving on, and engaging in light trade with an eye to maximum profit.

  57. @AnotherDad

    Roma in Hungary, most of Eastern Europe, and yes, in the US, have a bad reputation and there’s a reason for it. But I don’t think it’s genetic, and I haven’t known anyone who does. The Roma I encountered in Hungary looked pretty much like everyone else — as they do in States, incidentally.
     
    Not what I see. They certainly don't look like "everyone else" in the US. (I.e. compared to the mostly NW European mix that is typical of US whites.)

    Granted Roma are mixed and some can look pretty normally European. But others clearly look Indian--which is what they are, a NW Indian tribal group mixed with the genes they picked up along the way.

    And we don't know each other but I certainly think it's "genetic". They--like the Jews--are an outgroup hostile, endogamous population. They have not--to my knowledge--religiously formalized that outgroup hostility, but it's there in spades as a cultural requirement. Like Jews, Roma who did not have it and were "boiled off" into the majority population. Those who are still Roma are selectively--i.e. the descendants of--those who preferred to be Roma, and were happy\successful in Roma activities (theft, scamming, itinerate life, etc.). And unlike the Jews their culture\economic niche did *not* select for literacy (ergo IQ in the modern sense). Roma--who might be quite "street smart" in the sense of scams and just getting along-- tend to be extremely "not bright" in academic sense.

    Bottom line evolution didn't stop but speeded up. What's been going on in Europe the last couple thousand years--specifically what social relations people had (e.g. manorialism, guilds, clans, town life, separate tribes) and how people made a living (farming, herding, crafts, trading, raiding, scamming, etc.) has made a huge imprint on all Europeans. Even where the base DNA isn't wildly different--e.g. Scot highlanders, "Scots-Irish" borders, English lowlanders--not quite the same people despite some mixing. The endogamous groups like the Jews or Gypsies ... very different people--not just culturally but in their DNA.

    Not what I see. They certainly don’t look like “everyone else” in the US. (I.e. compared to the mostly NW European mix that is typical of US whites.)

    Depends on what Gypsies you know, I guess. They tend to be darker than northern Europeans, but I can’t really tell them apart from Italians, Jews, Romanians, Armenians, Turks, or any number of East European nationalities (needless to say there are huge numbers of White Americans connected to the first two groups). Add the Irish Travellers to the mix, and you’ve got problems. I mean, I never looked at Charlie Chaplin and had my “Roma-dar” go off.

    But, OK, I’ll mark it down that at least one person thinks that Gypsies are primarily genetic rather than cultural.

    • Replies: @Lot

    They tend to be darker than northern Europeans, but I can’t really tell them apart from Italians, Jews, Romanians, Armenians, Turks, or any number of East European nationalities (needless to say there are huge numbers of White Americans connected to the first two groups).
     
    Looking at a bunch of pictures online, certainly many Gypsies look white, but most have obvious Indian ancestry.

    You really think you could mistake these guys here for a bunch of Italians, Greeks, Jews, or Southern Slavs?

    Roma in Spain:

    http://tradiciondigital.es/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/a27.jpg


    Roma in France:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Tziganes_aux_Saintes-Maries_de_la_Mer.jpg


    Roma in Slovakia:

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-O0vorsGWQHg/UCTZNE6W1DI/AAAAAAAAAUI/LH2fJ1KE-D4/s1600/Slovakia+Roma+village.jpg
    , @ben tillman

    But, OK, I’ll mark it down that at least one person thinks that Gypsies are primarily genetic rather than cultural.
     
    It's not an either/or. Their culture comes from their genes; it's a phenotype that is influenced, of course, by the environment in which their genes express themselves. And their genetic makeup differs from that of Whites in Europe.
  58. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot

    ‘Hungarians: don’t steal!’ 
     
    I wonder if, along the Austrian border with Hungary, "Hungarians" is a more delicate way of saying "Gypsies," the same way "Romanians" is in the UK.

    Gypsies traveling on Hungarian passports stole (just like they do wherever they are), and this was generalized into the sign. The theory in the article is completely off, it had nothing to do with the attitudes of white Hungarians or communism. Apparently the SJW mentioned in the story failed to realize who the sign was really aimed at.

  59. Brain Scientist Tries to Uncover Why White People Are Prejudiced Against Gypsies

    The answer is right there – the first word in that sentence.

  60. @LKM
    I had some first-hand experience with Roma six years ago after Hungarian Roma started flooding the west-end of Toronto (this was before the Canadian government started cracking down on them and buying billboard space in Hungary to tell Roma that if they came to Canada, they wouldn't be accepted as asylum seekers or refugees). I volunteered at a charity that distributed used furnishings to people coming out of women's and homeless shelters, as well as some recent refugees.

    Whenever the Roma came around, it was an absolute nightmare. Each family would be allotted a certain number of items based on size and they were led around a warehouse by volunteer to choose the furniture that fit their apartment. Whenever a Roma family came, the kids would break off from the main group, go find pieces of furniture that they liked but had already been selected (but had yet to be shipped out) and rip off the shipping labels. After this, they'd rejoin Ma and Pa, and lead the hapless volunteer to their prized chest of drawers, which was of course suddenly available. The volunteers were a mix of all sorts,including a fair number of lefty-do-gooder types, but after a morning spent with the Roma, I swear every one of them would have been willing to join Jobbik.

    The slum-high-rises that they took over were even worse. I've been in pretty much every sleazy apartment complex in Toronto and each in one of them, you'd find people, whether black, white, Asian, whatever, who managed to conduct themselves with a level dignity far above their humble dwelling. Not in the Roma buildings. Every single time I went in one, you felt like a riot was on the verge of breaking out. Yelling, fighting, broken glass. School-aged kids everywhere, even during weekdays. Every single woman of child-bearing age either pregnant or toting around an infant. It was not pretty.

    Sailer’s posts on these topics are simultaneously acutely intelligent, hilarious, and ultimately terrifying. The comments are suprisingly high quality and filled with intelligence, humor, and interesting anecdotes. I loved LKM’s experiences, for example.

  61. @Jenny

    white males would have to shoplift at some number of times the rate of hispanic males for it to all balance out.

     

    Do white males shop?

    I don't want to overstate the case, but seriously. When they do go to a store, they get in and get out. My son is 17 and has his own vehicle. He buys fast food and gas, and almost nothing else. He probably doesn't go in a store but once a month or less. My fifty something husband is the same.

    What few white males there are that spend any time shopping may actually steal at the rate that some minorities do for all I know.

    My main beef with these damned studies is that they never ever ever include Asians. It is like Asians don't exist.

    I even noticed that the big marriage study went so far as to do a big study on marriage and how the college educated had different marriage rates, blah, blah, but did not include Asians.
    Hello! Little miss researcher lady, you are on a freaking college campus. Probably half the people in your own office are Asians and it doesn't occur to you to include Asians in your study of college educated people?

    Why are academics so clueless? Is it because is pays to be clueless?

    My main beef with these damned studies is that they never ever ever include Asians. It is like Asians don’t exist.

    It’s because they don’t exist.

    You must be referring to “lily-whites”: http://www2.law.ucla.edu/volokh/asian.htm

    Asians are now white.

    Don’t believe me? A recent MSNBC news headline announced a “Plunge in Minority University Enrollment” at the University of California, with UC Berkeley reporting that “minority admissions had declined 61 percent.” Actually, the total percentage of racial minority students at Berkeley, Asians included, fell from 57% to 49%. If you exclude the burgeoning group of people who decline to state their race, the minority percentage fell only three percentage points, from 61% to 58%.

    The drop was exclusively among blacks, Hispanics, and American Indians. Asians, who make up less than 10% of the California population, apparently aren’t a “minority.”

    Or listen to former California Chief Justice Rose Bird. Last year, she wrote a commentary saying that, without race preferences, the UC system would be “nothing more than a group of elitist, `lily white´ institutions.” A coorganizer of Jesse Jackson’s recent march in favor of race preferences called UC Berkeley’s law school, whose entering class last year was 20% minority, including 14% Asian, “lily-white.” Asians aren’t just white: They are lily-white.

  62. @Steve Sailer
    Are there any other ethnic groups where parents traditionally train their small children to be criminals?

    The Bushes?

  63. @Anon
    I know someone who has spent their life trying to help Roma children in Romania. Motivated by religion he is perhaps the most moral, and kindest, person I have ever met. Despite the fact that he devotes his life to this cause he has become pretty cynical about the Roma and recognizes that little has been achieved. On the other hand those kind of setbacks just cause Jesuits to double down.
    It's also important to remember that just because you believe that a gap might always exist between the Roma and other Europeans doesn't mean this gap can't be narrowed and doesn't justify the extremely widespread persecution of Roma people in Romania.

    I don’t think people are offput by the difference in Roma potential vs the host, but rather the extreme disrespect which they afford to other persons and property.

  64. @SPMoore8
    Not what I see. They certainly don’t look like “everyone else” in the US. (I.e. compared to the mostly NW European mix that is typical of US whites.)

    Depends on what Gypsies you know, I guess. They tend to be darker than northern Europeans, but I can't really tell them apart from Italians, Jews, Romanians, Armenians, Turks, or any number of East European nationalities (needless to say there are huge numbers of White Americans connected to the first two groups). Add the Irish Travellers to the mix, and you've got problems. I mean, I never looked at Charlie Chaplin and had my "Roma-dar" go off.

    But, OK, I'll mark it down that at least one person thinks that Gypsies are primarily genetic rather than cultural.

    They tend to be darker than northern Europeans, but I can’t really tell them apart from Italians, Jews, Romanians, Armenians, Turks, or any number of East European nationalities (needless to say there are huge numbers of White Americans connected to the first two groups).

    Looking at a bunch of pictures online, certainly many Gypsies look white, but most have obvious Indian ancestry.

    You really think you could mistake these guys here for a bunch of Italians, Greeks, Jews, or Southern Slavs?

    Roma in Spain:

    Roma in France:

    Roma in Slovakia:

    • Replies: @IBC

    Looking at a bunch of pictures online, certainly many Gypsies look white, but most have obvious Indian ancestry.
     
    But quite a few South Asians look white too. Try a Google image search for "Bollywood star." Another good example is the late Benazir Bhutto:

    http://beta.smbbmu.edu.pk/images/bhuttobanazir.jpg
    , @Jefferson
    "Looking at a bunch of pictures online, certainly many Gypsies look white, but most have obvious Indian ancestry.

    You really think you could mistake these guys here for a bunch of Italians, Greeks, Jews, or Southern Slavs?

    Roma in Spain:

    http://tradiciondigital.es/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/a27.jpg

    Roma in France:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Tziganes_aux_Saintes-Maries_de_la_Mer.jpg

    Roma in Slovakia:

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-O0vorsGWQHg/UCTZNE6W1DI/AAAAAAAAAUI/LH2fJ1KE-D4/s1600/Slovakia+Roma+village.jpg"

    I guess it depends on which type of Gypsies we are talking about, they seem to have a range of different phenotypes that range from South Asian looking to Mediterranean looking.

    On the TLC reality television show "My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding", the Gypsies on that show tend to have similar phenotypes as the cast of "Jersey Shore", "Growing Up Gotti", "Mob Wives" and "Real Housewives Of New Jersey".

    Meaning you would not mistake the cast of "My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding" for Nordic Anglo Saxon Protestants, but you would not mistake them for South Asian Indians and Sri Lankans either.
  65. @Steve Sailer
    Are Irish Travellers and Gypsies examples of convergent cultural evolution? Has anybody done a compare and contrast on the two groups?

    The Irish Savant blog, whose proprietor sometimes comments here, has some interesting entries on Irish Travellers. One such:

    Such Moral People

    Another Irish blogger on the subject:

    Travellers are not an Ethnic Group

  66. Having just spent an hour or so feeling threatened by gypsies yesterday in Rome’s Termini train station, I suppose I’m as guilty as any Magyar out there of being brain-defective. But as my wife and young children huddled with me like penguins around the luggage, the threat certainly seemed real.

    Then again, my wife is a quarter Hungarian–should I be thinking of her as a Quadyar ?–so she probably just hypnotized us.

    Or maybe it was all that Fascist architecture. In any case, I find this new science fascinating!

    • Replies: @Horzabky
    Last year, in Rome's Termini station, a Roma woman tried to extort money from the group of people I was traveling with. She spoke Italian and she wore western clothing (she said she was an employee of the station) but she certainly looked Indian rather than Italian. I guess she was a Roma from Rumania or Bulgaria, there are many of them in Italy.

    Several years ago my wife had her purse stolen by Roma women in Paris. A friend of hers had banknotes snatched from her at an ATM, also in Paris. Last year a female friend of mine had to fight against Roma women who tried to steal money from her at another Paris ATM.

    The Roma are a terrible nuisance.

    Steve, your post was the scariest I read on your blog. People like Dr Bruneau are willing to tamper with our brains to eliminate our un-PC thoughts and instincts.
  67. I knew a gypsy fortune teller once. She was a complete fraud. She could not even predict that she and her entire family would die in a horrible barn fire later that evening.

  68. The grotesque politics are not standard in neuroscience, but the low intellectual level unfortunately is.

  69. @Lot

    Of course, outside of perhaps Spain
     
    No, inside Spain too. I've seen child-pickpocket rings targeting tourists, for example. Not subtle either, as in have 10 tots swarm around a single person, plus lots of street begging.

    Spain is richer than Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Slovakia, and they are a much smaller percentage of the population, so they can be more entertained and blase about gypsie culture.

    Naples too , exactly as you describe it . “swarms”.

  70. @Steve Sailer
    Are there any other ethnic groups where parents traditionally train their small children to be criminals?

    I had an acquaintance who worked at a Safeway in an a neighborhood that was mainly Negro in it’s make up . Lots of theft as you would expect . According to him mothers would direct their children on what to steal and had to be watched as closely as the adults.

    A good movie from the last century about the Irish Travelers in the US was “Traveller” with Bill Paxton and Mark Wahlberg

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120366/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_35

  71. @Lot

    Of course, outside of perhaps Spain
     
    No, inside Spain too. I've seen child-pickpocket rings targeting tourists, for example. Not subtle either, as in have 10 tots swarm around a single person, plus lots of street begging.

    Spain is richer than Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Slovakia, and they are a much smaller percentage of the population, so they can be more entertained and blase about gypsie culture.

    Actual Spanish gypsies tend not to be as criminal as gypsies elsewhere. Twenty years ago, one didn’t see the behavior you describe in Spain, ever. But thanks to metastatic Schengenization, a lot of gypsies from Romania and elsewhere have moved in, so Spain now has two distinct gypsy populations. Hooray.

    • Replies: @Lot
    Maybe not 20 years ago, but Barcelona had a serious gypsy crime problem my first visit there in 2000.

    I can believe that Spanish gypsies are somewhat unique based on the wikipedia map of their settlement pattern. It looks like the Spanish ones came via North Africa, while all the rest of Europe's Roma came via Turkey.
  72. @Steve Sailer
    Irish Tinkers ... they do something with metal, right? Gypsies in Eastern Europe made a fair amount of money stealing metal from state-owned factories after 1989, like low-rent Marc Riches.

    In the Arab world, blacksmithery was often reserved for blacks.

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes? Granted, the Gypsies are from India a long time ago. But it seems odd.

    We know that lead may cause crime. I wonder if working a lot with copper, tin, iron do the same – except for a whole occupational class, rather than a geographic area.

    • Replies: @5371
    No, lead is far more toxic than any of those metals.
  73. @Reg Cæsar
    In the Middle East, some would cripple their children so they could beg. It's catching on in China, too.

    And the worst stage mother ever? Mr Peabody claimed that Sherman's mother had him fixed, presumably to keep the checks coming in.

    Let's hope he was joking!

    I spent a lot of time in the ME in the 70’s ; Egypt , Bahrain , Oman , The Emirates when Dubai was still undeveloped , Iran , Kuwait , Syria , Saudi and Sudan . The only place I witnessed that type of behavior was Pakistan . And that’s not the ME .
    Not related to the above but I ate food from the street vendors in most of those countries and the only place I got sick was in Sri Lanka , Ceylon at the time . So many of us got sick they threatened us with quarantine . We’d been warned about the water and nobody drank any but we all had ice cubes in our drinks . DUH .

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    The only place I witnessed that type of behavior was Pakistan . And that’s not the ME
     
    I'd read it was Cairo where that was rife once. Maybe Farouk or Nasser stamped it out. Or maybe, as in ports farther to the west, they switched to pederasty.

    …the only place I got sick was in Sri Lanka , Ceylon…
     
    Same here, and I only spent an hour in the country. The free, unlimited wine on Air Lanka helped me get through it, though.
  74. Diagnosis of the “Pathological Caring” common to leftists by Psychologist Marlin Newburn.

    “Some liberals, most of which are ego-soaked, look for ways to support their self-perceived importance so they champion imaginary causes for that purpose,” Newburn said. “They are adult-children who feel free to construct fantasies about their greatness. Their narcissism in part functions to blind them to inconvenient realities. So to compensate, they idealize the targets of their misdirected and pathological ‘caring.’”

    “They perpetuate misery by defending the indefensible such as widespread black(or Roma) predation and other crimes. It causes too much cognitive dissonance and confusion, and it doesn’t comport with their imagined status as a great liberator and defender of their chosen imagined, downtrodden group.”

    “Reality will only disrupt their fantasies as all-knowing and all-protecting avengers. Maturity is sometimes defined as when a person ends illusions in their thinking, and accepts reality, no matter how distasteful. I apply that same definition to the grounded, peaceful, law-abiding, sane, and stable.

    “Over the years I’ve examined and found a trait of sociopath in most liberals. They have this sadistic gratification in creating or fomenting social chaos and conflicts, then, presenting themselves as ‘above it all,’ they arrive to fix the problem they themselves caused or perpetuated. Think of it as mental illness. A Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome, but on a very large scale.”

    • Replies: @Lot

    Over the years I’ve examined and found a trait of sociopath in most liberals.
     
    If most liberals are sociopaths, and about 30% of the population are liberals, than >15% of the population is sociopathic. That's crank talk.
  75. @Lot

    ‘Hungarians: don’t steal!’ 
     
    I wonder if, along the Austrian border with Hungary, "Hungarians" is a more delicate way of saying "Gypsies," the same way "Romanians" is in the UK.

    I’m Hungarian myself.

    It’s difficult to tell. Obviously Gypsies were a big part of those Hungarians who stole, but I’m quite sure white Hungarians stole, too. Actually, that’s what most Hungarians think: that while Gypsies certainly made (and still make) us look worse, we weren’t quite good. Many Hungarians are still not satisfied with the way we (white Hungarians) behave in general – most of us would agree that part of the reason why Austria is so much better than Hungary is because Austrians are so much better than us Hungarians.

    BTW I was just a few times in Austria around 1989 (I was a child then), and I never so the “Hungarians” part in the sign. I only saw signs that said in Hungarian “Please don’t steal”, and what made it shameful was that it was only written in Hungarian, and no other language. It was obviously intended for Hungarians only. But I think Austrians were usually polite enough not to address the readers as “Hungarians”. And most stores actually didn’t have those signs. But at the time it was made into a big story in Hungary about how our compatriots behaved, and journalists writing about it certainly intended to shame Hungarians going to Austria into behaving more properly. (I.e. not stealing.)

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    Yes, I live in Austria, and when Austrians talk about those days (when "Mariahilferstrasse" was nicknamed "Magyarhilferstrasse") they talk about "Hungarians". And Austrians can tell the difference between Gypsies and Hungarians.

    The ethnic group that suffers the most incidental damage from Gypsies to their reputation are Romanians. Partly because a lot of the Gypsies flooding into Vienna (and now London) are from Romania, and because the unfortunate decision to use the politically correct term "Roma" instead of "Gypsy" naturally confuses people.
  76. @anonymous-antimarxist
    Diagnosis of the "Pathological Caring" common to leftists by Psychologist Marlin Newburn.

    “Some liberals, most of which are ego-soaked, look for ways to support their self-perceived importance so they champion imaginary causes for that purpose,” Newburn said. “They are adult-children who feel free to construct fantasies about their greatness. Their narcissism in part functions to blind them to inconvenient realities. So to compensate, they idealize the targets of their misdirected and pathological ‘caring.’”
     

    “They perpetuate misery by defending the indefensible such as widespread black(or Roma) predation and other crimes. It causes too much cognitive dissonance and confusion, and it doesn’t comport with their imagined status as a great liberator and defender of their chosen imagined, downtrodden group.”
     

    “Reality will only disrupt their fantasies as all-knowing and all-protecting avengers. Maturity is sometimes defined as when a person ends illusions in their thinking, and accepts reality, no matter how distasteful. I apply that same definition to the grounded, peaceful, law-abiding, sane, and stable.

    “Over the years I’ve examined and found a trait of sociopath in most liberals. They have this sadistic gratification in creating or fomenting social chaos and conflicts, then, presenting themselves as ‘above it all,’ they arrive to fix the problem they themselves caused or perpetuated. Think of it as mental illness. A Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome, but on a very large scale.”
     

    Over the years I’ve examined and found a trait of sociopath in most liberals.

    If most liberals are sociopaths, and about 30% of the population are liberals, than >15% of the population is sociopathic. That’s crank talk.

    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist
    I believe that in this case the term "liberal" is a common polite euphemism, and yes PC term at that, for a cultural Marxist SJW type, who most of us would describe as "Nucking Futz".
    , @David R. Merridale
    "Over the years I’ve examined and found a trait of sociopath in most liberals."

    If most liberals are sociopaths, and about 30% of the population are liberals, than >15% of the population is sociopathic. That’s crank talk.

    The writing is not very clear, but I'd read "a trait of sociopath" as meaning "a certain tendency to sociopathy", in which case 15%+ of the population doesn't seem unrealistic. I mean, most of us have *some* tendency to various psychological problems, though in most cases these tendencies don't become important or dominant aspects of our personalities.

    , @IA
    "Ethnic majorities will certainly become browner in Europe and North America through inter-racial marriage, but the porous nature of dominant groups should allow assimilation to counter the zero-sum nature of a changing ethnic composition. Demographic pressure is intense and will only become stronger in our century, but the liberalism of host societies seems sufficient to dissipate this energy. Let us make the bold assumption that white flight and the rise of the far right are momentary phenomena and that younger generations will be more comfortable with higher levels of ethnic diversity, accepting racial 'browning' through intermarriage more readily."

    http://www.sneps.net/RD/uploads/1-Shall%20the%20Religious%20Inherit%20the%20Earth.pdf

    How would you interpret this Harvard study, LOP (lump of protoplasm)?
  77. @slumber_j
    Actual Spanish gypsies tend not to be as criminal as gypsies elsewhere. Twenty years ago, one didn't see the behavior you describe in Spain, ever. But thanks to metastatic Schengenization, a lot of gypsies from Romania and elsewhere have moved in, so Spain now has two distinct gypsy populations. Hooray.

    Maybe not 20 years ago, but Barcelona had a serious gypsy crime problem my first visit there in 2000.

    I can believe that Spanish gypsies are somewhat unique based on the wikipedia map of their settlement pattern. It looks like the Spanish ones came via North Africa, while all the rest of Europe’s Roma came via Turkey.

  78. @syonredux

    The Roma who do escape the settlements often shed their ethnic identities — either deliberately or by default. “So for example, the dominant group may accept a Roma who comes from the settlement and somehow makes it into college,” Kende says. “But it’s not, ‘Oh, now this changes my perception of Roma.’ It’s, ‘Oh, well that person is not really Roma.’ And then what you have left is, the word ‘Roma’ becomes shorthand for ‘dirty, lazy, thief.’ ” Those norms are so pervasive, she said, that the Roma themselves have adopted them.
     
    Sounds like Ron Unz's theory that there are tons of successful Mestizo Hispanics.We just don't notice them because they have all assimilated into White Anglo society:"See, all those stalled third generation Hispanic Mestizos? They are just the dregs, the ones who couldn't make it! All the successful ones have non-Spanish names and are married to Irish people, etc"

    Actually there are such people of Gypsy origin. I personally know a few dark-complexioned Hungarians, and at least two of them told me they had Gypsy ancestors. Though the others either denied or at least never brought up the topic. (I never asked it obviously.)

    Most ‘racists’ in Hungary actually say that they never had problems with well-behaving Gypsies. They say they want Gypsies who don’t commit crimes, who aren’t loud (at least not during the night when other people are trying to sleep), who are clean (the lice part was true! I had a Gypsy classmate, and she did have lice), who at least try hard to find jobs, and who don’t game the welfare system. Such racists!

  79. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Steve, the story is just one great big irrelevance.
    Due to the EU, and its insistence upon ‘freedom of movement’ – and to the British political class’s devotion to the EU and insistence that the UK remains a member state, then, rest assured that the *entirety* of Hungary’s – and the Czech and Slovakia’s and Romania’s, for that measure, ‘Roma’ population, will, eventually, decamp in masse to the UK, where the welfare is just soooo much better, and the ‘anti discrimination’ industry is just soooo militant in fighting for the Roma’s behalf.
    The process is already well under way. It will be complete in a generation’s time. Really, there is no earthly reason for the Roma to remain in eastern Europe when rich pickings are so readily available.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Many Hungarians are hoping for that. Unfortunately there are way too many Gypsies, and they seem to be even too lazy to move their asses to greener turfs. They'd also need to learn English to some extent, which is also work, so they won't do that. It might take half a century or longer before the majority of them would move to England, I'd bet way more white Hungarians have moved there than Gypsies.
  80. Genetic studies show that ‘Irish travellers’ are just plain old Irishmen with no Roma admixture whatsoever.

  81. Steve,

    At some point it would be worth you time to look into the rather rapid decline in the Jew, Irish and Italian Mafias in the US over no more than 2-4 generations versus the persistence of Roma criminal families across the centuries.

    In particular it might be worth looking into the “10 commandments of the Mafia”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Mafia#Ten_Commandments

    It appears that the fate worse than death for these Mafioso would be to have been exposed as a cuckold or to have been caught as an adulterer with a another gang member’s woman or daughter.

    Combining strong tendencies toward exogamous and hypergamous marriage with prohibitions on out of wedlock children, the FBI has published several studies that decline of the Sicilian Mafia was a product of both vigilant law enforcement and the Mafia’s own self limiting cultural and reproductive habits.

  82. @Steve Sailer
    Are there any other ethnic groups where parents traditionally train their small children to be criminals?

    Blacks.

    • Replies: @Truth
    85.Anonymous
    says:

    March 23, 2015 at 8:07 am GMT

    @Steve Sailer




    Blacks.


    Why thank you for your contribution sir, you've mastered the colors in the crayola box now, good luck with the days of the week.
  83. @Lot

    Over the years I’ve examined and found a trait of sociopath in most liberals.
     
    If most liberals are sociopaths, and about 30% of the population are liberals, than >15% of the population is sociopathic. That's crank talk.

    I believe that in this case the term “liberal” is a common polite euphemism, and yes PC term at that, for a cultural Marxist SJW type, who most of us would describe as “Nucking Futz”.

  84. @Priss Factor
    I burned my hand the other day and have been careful about using the stove since.

    Why am I like this? I need a scientist to look into my brain to see why I'm not relaxed around hot stoves.

    “I burned my hand the other day and have been careful about using the stove since.

    Why am I like this? I need a scientist to look into my brain to see why I’m not relaxed around hot stoves.”

    I think an oven mitt would probably suffice.

  85. @Steve Sailer
    Irish Tinkers ... they do something with metal, right? Gypsies in Eastern Europe made a fair amount of money stealing metal from state-owned factories after 1989, like low-rent Marc Riches.

    In the Arab world, blacksmithery was often reserved for blacks.

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes? Granted, the Gypsies are from India a long time ago. But it seems odd.

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes? Granted, the Gypsies are from India a long time ago. But it seems odd.

    How about this one:

    “because being around fire 12-hours a day is hot as fuck in a hot-ass country, and nobody wanted to do it.”

  86. @Lot

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes?
     
    I don't think that's the case.

    Tinkerers and blacksmiths weren't the same thing. That's why Smith, Schmidt, Fiero, Ferrero, Herrera, etc are mainstream names in Europe.

    Gypsie tinkerers would specialize in scavenging and fixing metal things.

    In the case of Arabs dominated lands, all the hard labor was reserved for other groups. But, say, a Slav or Greek had other uses besides the most dangerous and unpleasant work, hammering iron in a hot climate.

    “In the case of Arabs dominated lands, all the hard labor was reserved for other groups. But, say, a Slav or Greek had other uses besides the most dangerous and unpleasant work, hammering iron in a hot climate.”

    Yes, most often getting pregnant.

  87. @reiner Tor
    I'm Hungarian myself.

    It's difficult to tell. Obviously Gypsies were a big part of those Hungarians who stole, but I'm quite sure white Hungarians stole, too. Actually, that's what most Hungarians think: that while Gypsies certainly made (and still make) us look worse, we weren't quite good. Many Hungarians are still not satisfied with the way we (white Hungarians) behave in general - most of us would agree that part of the reason why Austria is so much better than Hungary is because Austrians are so much better than us Hungarians.

    BTW I was just a few times in Austria around 1989 (I was a child then), and I never so the "Hungarians" part in the sign. I only saw signs that said in Hungarian "Please don't steal", and what made it shameful was that it was only written in Hungarian, and no other language. It was obviously intended for Hungarians only. But I think Austrians were usually polite enough not to address the readers as "Hungarians". And most stores actually didn't have those signs. But at the time it was made into a big story in Hungary about how our compatriots behaved, and journalists writing about it certainly intended to shame Hungarians going to Austria into behaving more properly. (I.e. not stealing.)

    Yes, I live in Austria, and when Austrians talk about those days (when “Mariahilferstrasse” was nicknamed “Magyarhilferstrasse”) they talk about “Hungarians”. And Austrians can tell the difference between Gypsies and Hungarians.

    The ethnic group that suffers the most incidental damage from Gypsies to their reputation are Romanians. Partly because a lot of the Gypsies flooding into Vienna (and now London) are from Romania, and because the unfortunate decision to use the politically correct term “Roma” instead of “Gypsy” naturally confuses people.

  88. @Anonymous
    Blacks.

    85.Anonymous
    says:

    March 23, 2015 at 8:07 am GMT

    Blacks.

    Why thank you for your contribution sir, you’ve mastered the colors in the crayola box now, good luck with the days of the week.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    But is it true? Sure, blacks are certainly way more criminal (and personally aggressive) than other groups, but do they train their children to become criminals, too? I somehow doubt it.
    , @Anonymous
    No "Truth",

    A very significant percentage of black kids are raised to hate and take advantage of non-blacks.

    And you know this.

    To be sure, you may have been raised differently, but you KNOW this is true.
  89. @george
    Is it possible that immigration from Africa is taking work away from the Roma. I thought for centuries the Roma did crummy jobs Europeans didnt want to do. Roma on welfare can only occur after the welfare state.

    From wikipedia:
    Around 1360, a fiefdom, called the Feudum Acinganorum was established in Corfu, which mainly used Romani serfs and to which the Romani on the island were subservient.

    I think Gypsies were simply less of a pest in pre-modern life. When most Europeans lived mostly in small rural villages there wasn’t that much to steal, and there wasn’t any anonymity. Gypsies could survive by trading, maybe petty theft here and there, or playing music to entertain – basically all non-respectable outsider roles, but not necessarily criminal. There is a reason they were romanticized in the pre-industrial age. The problem began with industrialization. Gypsies don’t fit well into the regimented, bureacratic societies that began to spring up in the 19th century, and they soon realized there was easy money to be made if you can exploit the cracks in that society. I suspect modern Gypsy criminality is a common sense evolutionary response to a changing environment.

    • Replies: @AP
    I had an experience that reflected the pre-industrial days. On an "elektrichka" (commuter train) in rural western Ukraine that serviced villages outside Lviv, two barefoot gypsy girls, about 10-12 years old, got onto our car. They sang Ukrainian folk songs beautifully and in harmony, asked for money, and then walked to the next car.
  90. @slumber_j
    Having just spent an hour or so feeling threatened by gypsies yesterday in Rome's Termini train station, I suppose I'm as guilty as any Magyar out there of being brain-defective. But as my wife and young children huddled with me like penguins around the luggage, the threat certainly seemed real.

    Then again, my wife is a quarter Hungarian--should I be thinking of her as a Quadyar ?--so she probably just hypnotized us.

    Or maybe it was all that Fascist architecture. In any case, I find this new science fascinating!

    Last year, in Rome’s Termini station, a Roma woman tried to extort money from the group of people I was traveling with. She spoke Italian and she wore western clothing (she said she was an employee of the station) but she certainly looked Indian rather than Italian. I guess she was a Roma from Rumania or Bulgaria, there are many of them in Italy.

    Several years ago my wife had her purse stolen by Roma women in Paris. A friend of hers had banknotes snatched from her at an ATM, also in Paris. Last year a female friend of mine had to fight against Roma women who tried to steal money from her at another Paris ATM.

    The Roma are a terrible nuisance.

    Steve, your post was the scariest I read on your blog. People like Dr Bruneau are willing to tamper with our brains to eliminate our un-PC thoughts and instincts.

  91. @Steve Sailer
    Irish Tinkers ... they do something with metal, right? Gypsies in Eastern Europe made a fair amount of money stealing metal from state-owned factories after 1989, like low-rent Marc Riches.

    In the Arab world, blacksmithery was often reserved for blacks.

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes? Granted, the Gypsies are from India a long time ago. But it seems odd.

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes?

    Among Japanese sword-makers, at least, the endogamous pressure was both internal and external. Meaning, outsiders considered working with hot ovens and molten metal very hard work indeed, not something worthy of those who were upwardly mobile (rich farmers intent on elevating their children to upper classes) and, at the same time, those inside the sword-making “caste” tended to encourage in-group marriages to preserve the secrets and know-how within a small, trusted group.

    • Replies: @Truth
    “because being around fire 12-hours a day is hot as fuck in a hot-ass country, and nobody wanted to do it.”

    "Meaning, outsiders considered working with hot ovens and molten metal very hard work indeed, not something worthy of those who were upwardly mobile"

    Well you see now, Buddy; my mentorship is rubbing off on you already.
  92. @Twinkie

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes?
     
    Among Japanese sword-makers, at least, the endogamous pressure was both internal and external. Meaning, outsiders considered working with hot ovens and molten metal very hard work indeed, not something worthy of those who were upwardly mobile (rich farmers intent on elevating their children to upper classes) and, at the same time, those inside the sword-making "caste" tended to encourage in-group marriages to preserve the secrets and know-how within a small, trusted group.

    “because being around fire 12-hours a day is hot as fuck in a hot-ass country, and nobody wanted to do it.”

    “Meaning, outsiders considered working with hot ovens and molten metal very hard work indeed, not something worthy of those who were upwardly mobile”

    Well you see now, Buddy; my mentorship is rubbing off on you already.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    Yes, looking at our two comments, it appears clear that I can have two thoughts at once while you can only have one. It's not your fault. I had smarter parents.
  93. @Anonymous
    Steve, the story is just one great big irrelevance.
    Due to the EU, and its insistence upon 'freedom of movement' - and to the British political class's devotion to the EU and insistence that the UK remains a member state, then, rest assured that the *entirety* of Hungary's - and the Czech and Slovakia's and Romania's, for that measure, 'Roma' population, will, eventually, decamp in masse to the UK, where the welfare is just soooo much better, and the 'anti discrimination' industry is just soooo militant in fighting for the Roma's behalf.
    The process is already well under way. It will be complete in a generation's time. Really, there is no earthly reason for the Roma to remain in eastern Europe when rich pickings are so readily available.

    Many Hungarians are hoping for that. Unfortunately there are way too many Gypsies, and they seem to be even too lazy to move their asses to greener turfs. They’d also need to learn English to some extent, which is also work, so they won’t do that. It might take half a century or longer before the majority of them would move to England, I’d bet way more white Hungarians have moved there than Gypsies.

    • Replies: @London Observer
    Quite a few Roma gypsies have moved to England. They've begun distinguishing themselves as pickpockets, beggars and skillful thieves, although rarely carry out their crimes with violence. Some make money by busking and the quality of their musicianship is good. Apart from that, it's not obvious what they have to offer us.

    Native English gypsies, who have lived here for several centuries, are generally more law-abiding. Most now live in houses and have jobs, although they face increased competition with East Europeans for traditional lines of work such as seasonal fruit-picking on farms.

    Irish travellers are a more recent addition to the UK and some of them simply live outside the law altogether like modern-day brigands. Their lifestyles have been featured extensively in Channel 4 programs with titles like 'My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding'.

    Presumably these were intended to humanise their subjects and enlighten the viewing public. But the most obvious message was that you too might be able to afford absurdly ostentatious weddings and top-of-the-range Landrovers if you don't pay any taxes.

    , @Anonymous
    Literally millions upon millions of foreigners have moved in on England as of late, and in particular during the disastrous New Labour regime, and 'not being able to utter a word of English, didn't seem to put not one darned one off.
    In fact, due to 'equality' and 'anti-discrimination' laws passed in the UK, non-English speakers are entitled, as of right, to interpreters, to do all their messy business. Not only that, but they go right to the front of the line for those coveted council houses, which millions of indigenous Britons have been patiently waiting decades for.
  94. @Truth
    “because being around fire 12-hours a day is hot as fuck in a hot-ass country, and nobody wanted to do it.”

    "Meaning, outsiders considered working with hot ovens and molten metal very hard work indeed, not something worthy of those who were upwardly mobile"

    Well you see now, Buddy; my mentorship is rubbing off on you already.

    Yes, looking at our two comments, it appears clear that I can have two thoughts at once while you can only have one. It’s not your fault. I had smarter parents.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Twinkie vs. Truth.

    Looks like Steve's diversity initiative isn't working out as well as hoped.

    But the ladies do add something special.
  95. @Truth
    85.Anonymous
    says:

    March 23, 2015 at 8:07 am GMT

    @Steve Sailer




    Blacks.


    Why thank you for your contribution sir, you've mastered the colors in the crayola box now, good luck with the days of the week.

    But is it true? Sure, blacks are certainly way more criminal (and personally aggressive) than other groups, but do they train their children to become criminals, too? I somehow doubt it.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Almost all criticism of American blacks' childrearing is of their failures, not, as with Gypsy childrearing, their successes.
    , @Anonymous
    Put it this way, what do they do to actually *stop* criminal propensities manifesting in their children?
    Whatever they do as parents *they simply cannot* be inculcating a sense of morality and right and wrong in their children.
  96. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    As a non-Gypsy Spaniard, I’d like to add a couple of points to Steve’s reference to my country’s experience with its large Gypsy community: generally speaking, the experience is bad; in the 1980s, the forced integration of Gypsy kids into my primary school was a sound failure, with the kids (not “book smart”, hopelessly uneducated, tribal, sex-obsessed and well-above-average violent even as pre-teens) unable to blend in with the rest; in the 1990s, as a teenager, a friend who lived in a nearby area with a Gypsy camp always had to take taxis back home after nights out, rather than public transportation, out of fear of being attacked by Gypsies roaming the streets at night. Things haven’t really changed much.
    But there are bright points too. A recent deluge of Romanian Gypsies has come to show that Spanish Gypsies, for all their multiple faults, as a community are more ingenious and find ways to make a living without being obnoxious beggars and fourth-rate tricksters. I’m thinking of small-time drug dealing, fruit peddling and the like. And there’s a non-trivial percentage of Spanish Gypsies who have been using sports (notably soccer) and the arts (notably flamenco music) to join higher ranks of society, where they mix up with “payos” (non-Gypsy Spaniards) and essentially join the mainstream society in one or two generations.
    I get the impression that there is more fluidity in the relationship between Gypsies and payos in Spain that probably anywhere else. In some cities like Jerez de la Frontera, a large percentage of the population is either Gypsy or somewhat Gypsy (Jerez has 45% unemployment: Spanish Gypsies are still not highly productive members of society, as a rule). Elsewhere, the difference is more stark and the communities more separated, but the divide does seem less clear in Spain than elsewhere in Europe.

  97. @reiner Tor
    But is it true? Sure, blacks are certainly way more criminal (and personally aggressive) than other groups, but do they train their children to become criminals, too? I somehow doubt it.

    Almost all criticism of American blacks’ childrearing is of their failures, not, as with Gypsy childrearing, their successes.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    That's my impression, too. Some Hungarian 'racists' even wish we could swap our Gypsies for Blacks. I keep telling them to be careful what they wish for.

    But anyway, Blacks come from societies where they were the productive class. Gypsies have mostly been parasites throughout the ages.
    , @Romanian
    Very visible success in some cases.

    http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/09/wealthy-roma/oneill-text
    http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2012/09/wealthy-roma/gachet-kashinsky-photography

    some other nice photos
    http://viola.bz/romanian-gypsies-living-luxury-lifestyle/
  98. @Steve Sailer
    Almost all criticism of American blacks' childrearing is of their failures, not, as with Gypsy childrearing, their successes.

    That’s my impression, too. Some Hungarian ‘racists’ even wish we could swap our Gypsies for Blacks. I keep telling them to be careful what they wish for.

    But anyway, Blacks come from societies where they were the productive class. Gypsies have mostly been parasites throughout the ages.

  99. @reiner Tor
    Many Hungarians are hoping for that. Unfortunately there are way too many Gypsies, and they seem to be even too lazy to move their asses to greener turfs. They'd also need to learn English to some extent, which is also work, so they won't do that. It might take half a century or longer before the majority of them would move to England, I'd bet way more white Hungarians have moved there than Gypsies.

    Quite a few Roma gypsies have moved to England. They’ve begun distinguishing themselves as pickpockets, beggars and skillful thieves, although rarely carry out their crimes with violence. Some make money by busking and the quality of their musicianship is good. Apart from that, it’s not obvious what they have to offer us.

    Native English gypsies, who have lived here for several centuries, are generally more law-abiding. Most now live in houses and have jobs, although they face increased competition with East Europeans for traditional lines of work such as seasonal fruit-picking on farms.

    Irish travellers are a more recent addition to the UK and some of them simply live outside the law altogether like modern-day brigands. Their lifestyles have been featured extensively in Channel 4 programs with titles like ‘My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding’.

    Presumably these were intended to humanise their subjects and enlighten the viewing public. But the most obvious message was that you too might be able to afford absurdly ostentatious weddings and top-of-the-range Landrovers if you don’t pay any taxes.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    Quite a few Roma gypsies have moved to England
     
    No doubt about it. The question is, what percentage of the maybe 600-800,000 Hungarian Gypsies did move there? I'd bet it's not more than 1-2%. But maybe it'll accelerate, as more and more Gypsies learn more about the wonders of British white racism.
    , @Jonathan Silber
    Some [Gypsies] make money by busking and the quality of their musicianship is good. Apart from that, it’s not obvious what they have to offer us.

    And yet that is more than what incompetent bungling pseudo-scientists like Dr. Bruneau have to offer us.

    The begging, thieving, scamming Gypsies, if only by sharpening a knife or paving a driveway now and then, contribute something of value to society. Whereas Dr. Bruneau and his ilk, though more respectable, by their efforts in their vocation contribute nothing of value.

  100. actually, it was not the hungarians who were stealing but the hungarian and other(czech,slovak) roma. you can have many beefs with communism but it didn’t teach us to steal. it’s more like, even the communist didn’t manage to civilize these people in 50 years.

  101. @AshTon
    We know that lead may cause crime. I wonder if working a lot with copper, tin, iron do the same - except for a whole occupational class, rather than a geographic area.

    No, lead is far more toxic than any of those metals.

  102. @London Observer
    Quite a few Roma gypsies have moved to England. They've begun distinguishing themselves as pickpockets, beggars and skillful thieves, although rarely carry out their crimes with violence. Some make money by busking and the quality of their musicianship is good. Apart from that, it's not obvious what they have to offer us.

    Native English gypsies, who have lived here for several centuries, are generally more law-abiding. Most now live in houses and have jobs, although they face increased competition with East Europeans for traditional lines of work such as seasonal fruit-picking on farms.

    Irish travellers are a more recent addition to the UK and some of them simply live outside the law altogether like modern-day brigands. Their lifestyles have been featured extensively in Channel 4 programs with titles like 'My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding'.

    Presumably these were intended to humanise their subjects and enlighten the viewing public. But the most obvious message was that you too might be able to afford absurdly ostentatious weddings and top-of-the-range Landrovers if you don't pay any taxes.

    Quite a few Roma gypsies have moved to England

    No doubt about it. The question is, what percentage of the maybe 600-800,000 Hungarian Gypsies did move there? I’d bet it’s not more than 1-2%. But maybe it’ll accelerate, as more and more Gypsies learn more about the wonders of British white racism.

  103. In my experience in Hungary (data for anywhere but Budapest is over 10 years old).

    The west and south the gypsy element is not very visible (Veszprem, Pecs, Szeged), it’sa good more visible in Budapest, but not everywhere equally and I had the impression that there’s no clear dividing line between some of the Hungarian underclass and gypsies (Hungarians deny this, but it still seems that way.

    In the eastern city of Miskolc, the contrast between ethnic Hungarians and Gypsies was very clear with the gypsies being both more numerous and notably darker skinned. Miskolc also had something like a ghetto with gypsies living in what looked like shacks made out random pieces of wood.

    Oddly, the much smaller gypsy population in Poland mostly speak Romany among themselves in public while in Hungary, gypsies mostly speak their version of Hungarian (at least in public).

    According to a friend (occasional colleague) from the former Yugoslavia who studied the culture and language of Gypsies there and neighboring countries, Gypsies have something like a family-caste system and not all groups steal (but you need to know which ones do when you’re dealing with them). Many groups former relatively honest livelihoods have disappeared but the caste thing makes it difficult to adapt.

    They’re also very inbred and have lots of medical problems from that and problems in getting treatment because doctors don’t want to bother with them. A lot of gypsy kids look like they have various syndromes that might have names or which having been named yet.

  104. […] Steve Sailer does an extended Fisking of an article in the New York Times by a typical SWPL academic. […]

  105. @george
    Is it possible that immigration from Africa is taking work away from the Roma. I thought for centuries the Roma did crummy jobs Europeans didnt want to do. Roma on welfare can only occur after the welfare state.

    From wikipedia:
    Around 1360, a fiefdom, called the Feudum Acinganorum was established in Corfu, which mainly used Romani serfs and to which the Romani on the island were subservient.

    There are actually jobs that traditionally the Roma do, but modern commerce has kind of put a stop to them. You can see it reflected in some of their family names. If you meet one named “Căldărar” or a variation like Kaldera, it usually means that his ancestors (sometimes right up until today) would work copper to make and repair pots and pans. Their nomadic lifestyles made them good traveling tinkerers, stopping near a village and getting work as day laborers, specialized craftsmen (goldsmithing, silversmithing, working copper, tin etc) or as musicians for weddings and other parties. Some of the most talented musicians, even without formal training or even basic training like reading sheet music, are Roma.

    There is a new Romanian movie out, called “Aferim!”, which is about a 19th century Roma slave in the Romanian principalities. Haven’t seen it yet, but it’s supposed to be a very good period piece.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4374460/

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    A Hungarian classical pianist told me that some Gypsies got through Budapest's top classical music conservatory without ever being able to read music. They just faked their way through on raw talent. Dyslexia is a big problem for Gypsies, but not lack of musical ability.
  106. @donut
    I spent a lot of time in the ME in the 70's ; Egypt , Bahrain , Oman , The Emirates when Dubai was still undeveloped , Iran , Kuwait , Syria , Saudi and Sudan . The only place I witnessed that type of behavior was Pakistan . And that's not the ME .
    Not related to the above but I ate food from the street vendors in most of those countries and the only place I got sick was in Sri Lanka , Ceylon at the time . So many of us got sick they threatened us with quarantine . We'd been warned about the water and nobody drank any but we all had ice cubes in our drinks . DUH .

    The only place I witnessed that type of behavior was Pakistan . And that’s not the ME

    I’d read it was Cairo where that was rife once. Maybe Farouk or Nasser stamped it out. Or maybe, as in ports farther to the west, they switched to pederasty.

    …the only place I got sick was in Sri Lanka , Ceylon…

    Same here, and I only spent an hour in the country. The free, unlimited wine on Air Lanka helped me get through it, though.

  107. @Steve Sailer
    Maybe cultures where "Smith" is the most average name tend to wind up doing better than ones where metalworking is some weird voodoo restricted by caste.

    Maybe cultures where “Smith” is the most average name tend to wind up doing better than ones where metalworking is some weird voodoo restricted by caste.

    Schmidt is second to Müller in Germany. Maybe malt and hops were more important than iron.

    • Replies: @AP

    Schmidt is second to Müller in Germany. Maybe malt and hops were more important than iron.
     
    Hmm..Melnyk (Miller) is the most common Ukrainian surname also. Koval (smith) is far down the list.
    , @TWS
    Read "The Drawing of the Dark" by Tim Powers. Good story and shows that secretly beer is the root of civilization.
  108. @Romanian
    There are actually jobs that traditionally the Roma do, but modern commerce has kind of put a stop to them. You can see it reflected in some of their family names. If you meet one named "Căldărar" or a variation like Kaldera, it usually means that his ancestors (sometimes right up until today) would work copper to make and repair pots and pans. Their nomadic lifestyles made them good traveling tinkerers, stopping near a village and getting work as day laborers, specialized craftsmen (goldsmithing, silversmithing, working copper, tin etc) or as musicians for weddings and other parties. Some of the most talented musicians, even without formal training or even basic training like reading sheet music, are Roma.

    There is a new Romanian movie out, called "Aferim!", which is about a 19th century Roma slave in the Romanian principalities. Haven't seen it yet, but it's supposed to be a very good period piece.

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4374460/

    A Hungarian classical pianist told me that some Gypsies got through Budapest’s top classical music conservatory without ever being able to read music. They just faked their way through on raw talent. Dyslexia is a big problem for Gypsies, but not lack of musical ability.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    It must be noted that musician Gypsies are a separate caste among the Gypsies. It's not like all Gypsies have that musical talent.

    There's an anecdote about a Gypsy musician watching Yehudi Menuhin playing, and remarking: "Very skillful, but he wouldn't survive in a tavern."
    , @Santoculto
    Very interesting. This might help us explain the creative explosion that profoundly shaped the Spanish culture. And shows us that the relationship between creativity and crime is more inconvenient than we think.
  109. @Twinkie
    Yes, looking at our two comments, it appears clear that I can have two thoughts at once while you can only have one. It's not your fault. I had smarter parents.

    Twinkie vs. Truth.

    Looks like Steve’s diversity initiative isn’t working out as well as hoped.

    But the ladies do add something special.

    • Replies: @Truth
    Welcome back, Reg;

    Good to see you're still doing that faggy thing with the "a" and the "e".
  110. @Steve Sailer
    Irish Tinkers ... they do something with metal, right? Gypsies in Eastern Europe made a fair amount of money stealing metal from state-owned factories after 1989, like low-rent Marc Riches.

    In the Arab world, blacksmithery was often reserved for blacks.

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes? Granted, the Gypsies are from India a long time ago. But it seems odd.

    I can see a number of explanations. The first is that a lot of the metalworking was occasional and incidental. The Travelers (and, as I explained in another post below, also the Roma) ended up doing a lot of the work for towns too small to have their own blacksmith. You needed a new pot or an old one repaired, you needed some jewelry readjusted etc. They wouldn’t be making swords (maybe horseshoes), that would be for the official and state sanctioned blacksmiths. Neither would they be making high value items, because most of the demand is concentrated in a few places and it doesn’t pay to wander around with precious things like gems on your person. Also, their status might be affected by handling on the part low status people. Metal also tended to be reasonably valuable for its size, easy to steal and having skills to modify it meant that you were less likely to get caught or to find the most profitable way of pawning it off in the age before the professional fence.

    The second is that status is conferred by land, and how restricting its ownership by outsiders was an easy way of denying them social respectability and maintaining otherness (like Jews in many parts of Europe, only Jews turned to intellectual labor to compensate). Eastern European literature is full of references to the love of land, the ennobling work of a farmer and his wholesome values, as well as the social status conferred in the small village by being a reasonably well off farmer. It’s why agricultural redistribution from boyar estates (worked by serfs or tenants) and peasant support and values constituted the backbone of big (conservative) parties almost everywhere in Eastern Europe before communism destroyed the local peasant, materially and morally.

    The seminal novel “Ion”, which is the first objective novel in Romanian literature, is about a peasant man who loves another but seduces the daughter of a rich man and threatens to announces it the world so they would have to marry her to him (and get a huge dowry). The author was inspired by witnessing a peasant man randomly and passionately (like a lover) kissing his land after coming back from church in his Sunday best.

    FYI There was even an openly gypsy king in the Moldovan voievodate at a time when the gypsy population (still called that) was in slavery. His mother was an actual Romanian, so his father must have been a stud to transgress social boundaries like that. This would be a good time for me to recommend you check out the movie “Aferim!” on a Roma slave in the 19th century.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C8%98tefan_R%C4%83zvan

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4374460/

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    When I was in rural Russia in June 2001 I made sure to smell the dirt, like a character in a Russian novel. It smelled really good.
  111. @Reg Cæsar
    Twinkie vs. Truth.

    Looks like Steve's diversity initiative isn't working out as well as hoped.

    But the ladies do add something special.

    Welcome back, Reg;

    Good to see you’re still doing that faggy thing with the “a” and the “e”.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    Yes, now I can do it with a raised pinky on a smartphone. No more ASCII.
  112. @Romanian
    I can see a number of explanations. The first is that a lot of the metalworking was occasional and incidental. The Travelers (and, as I explained in another post below, also the Roma) ended up doing a lot of the work for towns too small to have their own blacksmith. You needed a new pot or an old one repaired, you needed some jewelry readjusted etc. They wouldn't be making swords (maybe horseshoes), that would be for the official and state sanctioned blacksmiths. Neither would they be making high value items, because most of the demand is concentrated in a few places and it doesn't pay to wander around with precious things like gems on your person. Also, their status might be affected by handling on the part low status people. Metal also tended to be reasonably valuable for its size, easy to steal and having skills to modify it meant that you were less likely to get caught or to find the most profitable way of pawning it off in the age before the professional fence.

    The second is that status is conferred by land, and how restricting its ownership by outsiders was an easy way of denying them social respectability and maintaining otherness (like Jews in many parts of Europe, only Jews turned to intellectual labor to compensate). Eastern European literature is full of references to the love of land, the ennobling work of a farmer and his wholesome values, as well as the social status conferred in the small village by being a reasonably well off farmer. It's why agricultural redistribution from boyar estates (worked by serfs or tenants) and peasant support and values constituted the backbone of big (conservative) parties almost everywhere in Eastern Europe before communism destroyed the local peasant, materially and morally.

    The seminal novel "Ion", which is the first objective novel in Romanian literature, is about a peasant man who loves another but seduces the daughter of a rich man and threatens to announces it the world so they would have to marry her to him (and get a huge dowry). The author was inspired by witnessing a peasant man randomly and passionately (like a lover) kissing his land after coming back from church in his Sunday best.

    FYI There was even an openly gypsy king in the Moldovan voievodate at a time when the gypsy population (still called that) was in slavery. His mother was an actual Romanian, so his father must have been a stud to transgress social boundaries like that. This would be a good time for me to recommend you check out the movie "Aferim!" on a Roma slave in the 19th century.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C8%98tefan_R%C4%83zvan

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4374460/

    When I was in rural Russia in June 2001 I made sure to smell the dirt, like a character in a Russian novel. It smelled really good.

    • Replies: @Romanian
    The famously fertile chernozem (as in black) soils of Ukraine and Western Russia have even become contraband. They ship topsoil out by the truckload.
  113. @Steve Sailer
    Almost all criticism of American blacks' childrearing is of their failures, not, as with Gypsy childrearing, their successes.
  114. @Steve Sailer
    When I was in rural Russia in June 2001 I made sure to smell the dirt, like a character in a Russian novel. It smelled really good.

    The famously fertile chernozem (as in black) soils of Ukraine and Western Russia have even become contraband. They ship topsoil out by the truckload.

  115. @Truth
    Welcome back, Reg;

    Good to see you're still doing that faggy thing with the "a" and the "e".

    Yes, now I can do it with a raised pinky on a smartphone. No more ASCII.

  116. @Steve Sailer
    A Hungarian classical pianist told me that some Gypsies got through Budapest's top classical music conservatory without ever being able to read music. They just faked their way through on raw talent. Dyslexia is a big problem for Gypsies, but not lack of musical ability.

    It must be noted that musician Gypsies are a separate caste among the Gypsies. It’s not like all Gypsies have that musical talent.

    There’s an anecdote about a Gypsy musician watching Yehudi Menuhin playing, and remarking: “Very skillful, but he wouldn’t survive in a tavern.”

  117. I’m with the band!

    “The important thing is, Hiro, that you have to understand the Mafia way. And the Mafia way is that we pursue larger goals under the guise of personal relationships. … This is how we avoid the trap of self-perpetuating ideology. Ideology is a virus. So getting this chick back is more than just getting a chick back. It’s the concrete manifestation of an abstract policy goal. And we like concrete — right, Vic?”
    Fisheye explaining the purpose of his stalled rescue mission to Hiro, Chapter 48

    The gypsy way is the horse way. Contract killers? “Band of Gypsys was the only live recording authorized by Jimi Hendrix before his death. It was recorded and released in order to get Hendrix out from under a contractual obligation that had been hanging over his head for a couple years.”
    http://www.last.fm/music/Jimi+Hendrix/Band+Of+Gypsys

  118. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor
    Many Hungarians are hoping for that. Unfortunately there are way too many Gypsies, and they seem to be even too lazy to move their asses to greener turfs. They'd also need to learn English to some extent, which is also work, so they won't do that. It might take half a century or longer before the majority of them would move to England, I'd bet way more white Hungarians have moved there than Gypsies.

    Literally millions upon millions of foreigners have moved in on England as of late, and in particular during the disastrous New Labour regime, and ‘not being able to utter a word of English, didn’t seem to put not one darned one off.
    In fact, due to ‘equality’ and ‘anti-discrimination’ laws passed in the UK, non-English speakers are entitled, as of right, to interpreters, to do all their messy business. Not only that, but they go right to the front of the line for those coveted council houses, which millions of indigenous Britons have been patiently waiting decades for.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "Not only that, but they go right to the front of the line for those coveted council houses, which millions of indigenous Britons have been patiently waiting decades for."

    I think this is similarly true for many Americans whose parents and ancestors have been patiently working their way up the ladder, trying to give their kids advantages, and then newcomers get advantages because of their minority status, even though they have nothing to do with our country or making it what it is.
    , @Boomstick
    I saw some video of Farange being attacked by some supercilious twit on the BBC over Farange's comments on "Romanians" and crime in Britain. I didn't make the connection to the Roma at the time and it seemed a little mysterious to me.
    , @reiner Tor
    Romanian Gypsies are more mobile than Hungarian ones, because they either speak Romanian or Romani or both, and those being Indo-European (and in the case of Romanian, Romance) languages, it's easier for them to get themselves understood in countries like Spain, France or Italy. It's also easier for them to learn another Indo-European language like English.

    Hungarian Gypsies are - unfortunately for Hungarians - among the least mobile ones. It doesn't mean you in the UK won't be able to enjoy their presence soon - I'm sure they will enrich your culture, and I'm sure some of them already are making your cities even more vibrant than Pakistanis and Jamaicans do. However, I'm largely skeptical about all of them moving permanently to the UK.

    I think we can be optimistic about their fate: their numbers will likely keep growing in Hungary to make it more diverse than ever, however, they will also settle in the UK in sufficient numbers to visibly strengthen the UK through diversity and petty crime.

    Regarding interpreters, I'm sure they'll learn English just fine, but find it more prudent to pretend they don't understand the language. I bet you they can speak just enough English they need for their scams, but not enough to understand the police.
  119. @reiner Tor
    But is it true? Sure, blacks are certainly way more criminal (and personally aggressive) than other groups, but do they train their children to become criminals, too? I somehow doubt it.

    Put it this way, what do they do to actually *stop* criminal propensities manifesting in their children?
    Whatever they do as parents *they simply cannot* be inculcating a sense of morality and right and wrong in their children.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    You might not be aware what Gypsies are doing. They are actively training their children to become criminals. In Hungary when you read in the news that start like "seven minors from the same family, the youngest being just six years old, broke into a storehouse, while four adults waited outside with two cars...", then you know those are Gypsies. They actively train their minors to become habitual criminals. They use them often because under Hungarian law under the age of twelve nobody can be punished for any crime at all, so Gypsy families can use them as pickpockets, and if they are caught, the parents will deny any involvement. Sometimes they use them for break-ins, though when cars are also involved, it's difficult for the parents (and other accompanying relatives) to deny involvement. (And to me it's astonishing that they still deny it. One characteristic of Gypsies is that they will lie plainly and loudly, with one sentence contradicting the other, and expecting to get away with it. Of course it's not totally irrational, because with minor crimes the police will get tired of the dozens of relatives each providing alibis to each other, with the many stories of course contradicting each other, and even different versions of the same story by the same person contradicting each other, and the police often judge it's just simply not worth writing it all down unless there's a chance to get at least somebody into prison. But Gypsies limited mental capacity can be seen from the fact that they employ similar tactics when trying to get away with murder, and of course it doesn't work.)
  120. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Strangely enough, the British colonialists of India actually labelled entire castes as ‘criminal castes’ and passed Acts specifically aimed at criminal castes. Apparently these castes made a .living through criminality since time immemorial, and were well known by other Indians for this.
    Perhaps the Roma were always a ‘criminal caste’ all along.

    • Replies: @Boomstick
    The Roma genetic origins have been traced to Northern India, about 1,500 years ago. They were probably camp followers for a military expedition, or were simply pushed out by the Muslim invasion; once they got over the Khyber Pass it was all downhill. They seem to have come from the lower castes, specifically the Domba, who are known for their musical ability and blacksmithing.
  121. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    From what I read in mythology and ancient history, the ancient and honorable trade of the blacksmith was always very well respected by ancient peoples, in that blacksmiths were thought to have held arcane and ‘magical’ secrets regarding the mysterious transformation of rocks and fire into metal. Anyhow, the blacksmith was a well respected member of any community due to the utility of iron articles of all manner, and the long training needed to acquire the skills necessary.
    Gypsies lead a nomadic life. It’s difficult to envision Gypsies carrying around all the elaborate equipment a blacksmith, any blacksmith ie forge, bellows, anvil, tongs, hammers, etc, around with them on their travels.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    One of the most typical Hungarian Gypsy surnames is Lakatos, which means locksmith. I think a lot of them were locksmiths.
  122. I’ve never been around Gypsies but I’ve noticed that descriptions of their criminal activities seem to indicate mostly fairly minor crimes like pickpocketing and petty thievery. My impression is that they are not for the most part very violent. Is that actually correct? Or are they also disproportionately involved in violent crime?

  123. Hungary was a corrupt place back in the 90’s. Tour buses were routinely pulled over by the cops. Operators knew to have money ready. After a short stop the police were paid and you were on your way. This could happen a few times before you reached the Austrian border.

  124. @Bill P

    I suspect there will be big money to be made in developing witch-sniffing gear to suss out racists using brain scans so they can be properly punished.
     
    I wonder whether frontal lobotomies will come back into vogue as a cure for "implicit racism."

    My mitteleuropean wife is sympathetic to gypsies for some reason, but then again she isn't intimidated by them. She told me that when a gypsy woman tried to steal her purse, she seized her by the arm, and in an effort to reform her asked whether she thought this behavior would reflect well on her people.

    One thing that differentiates American minorities from the traditional European ones is that the Europeans themselves (especially the tall blond ones) tend to be more physically formidable than their scofflaw minorities. This is a pretty important distinction. Your typical ghetto black male is way more terrifying than your average gypsy. Honestly, I'd be more wary of a gang of drunk Russians or Scots than gypsies myself.

    If northern Europeans around the periphery of the Baltic weren't so well-behaved, they'd be almost as scary as blacks. They are big, tall intimidating people.

    For some reason, even Blacks in Europe aren´t that impresssive physically. If you´re looking for tall, burly European men, look no further than Serbia, Croatia and Montenegro. They are nearly as tall as the Dutch with twice the strenght and ten times the balls.

  125. As for Gypsies, I have some first hand experience with them. Let´s just say that it´s the only human group I´ve ever met with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Hell, they almost lack any kind of human empathy towards non-kin. 100% junk DNA, so to speak.

  126. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    I think Gypsies were simply less of a pest in pre-modern life. When most Europeans lived mostly in small rural villages there wasn't that much to steal, and there wasn't any anonymity. Gypsies could survive by trading, maybe petty theft here and there, or playing music to entertain - basically all non-respectable outsider roles, but not necessarily criminal. There is a reason they were romanticized in the pre-industrial age. The problem began with industrialization. Gypsies don't fit well into the regimented, bureacratic societies that began to spring up in the 19th century, and they soon realized there was easy money to be made if you can exploit the cracks in that society. I suspect modern Gypsy criminality is a common sense evolutionary response to a changing environment.

    I had an experience that reflected the pre-industrial days. On an “elektrichka” (commuter train) in rural western Ukraine that serviced villages outside Lviv, two barefoot gypsy girls, about 10-12 years old, got onto our car. They sang Ukrainian folk songs beautifully and in harmony, asked for money, and then walked to the next car.

    • Replies: @David R. Merridale
    No group is entirely without redeeming value, and for gypsies it's folk music, both their own gypsy music and folk music they pick up from the peoples around. At least, this used to be the case. Maybe it's all gypsy rap nowadays, but please no.
  127. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @Reg Cæsar


    Maybe cultures where “Smith” is the most average name tend to wind up doing better than ones where metalworking is some weird voodoo restricted by caste.

     

    Schmidt is second to Müller in Germany. Maybe malt and hops were more important than iron.

    Schmidt is second to Müller in Germany. Maybe malt and hops were more important than iron.

    Hmm..Melnyk (Miller) is the most common Ukrainian surname also. Koval (smith) is far down the list.

  128. @jenkem
    Brain Scientist Tries To Uncover Why Whites Can't See The Emperor's New Clothes

    That’s great, Jenkem!

  129. @jenkem
    Brain Scientist Tries To Uncover Why Whites Can't See The Emperor's New Clothes

    Brain Scientist Tries To Uncover Why Whites Can’t See The Emperor’s New Clothes

    That’s great, Jenkem!

  130. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @The most deplorable one

    Overall, blacks and Hispanics were no more likely than whites to steal merchandise. However, when race and gender were examined by subcategory, Hispanic females stole the most, shoplifting at more than seven times the rate of white females, he said.
     
    That doesn't pass the smell test. For that to be the case white males would have to shoplift at some number of times the rate of hispanic males for it to all balance out.

    News item on the US Shoplifting study but it does not contain a link to the actual study and seems very obsessed with busting stereotypes …

    • Replies: @The most deplorable one
    Who Actually Steals appears to be the report of the study, and it says:

    The generalizability of our findings is somewhat limited by the
    fact that we collected data from a single retail store.
     
  131. @Steve Sailer
    Are there any other ethnic groups where parents traditionally train their small children to be criminals?

    Depends on your definition of “criminal”. Ethnic groups which prey on other ethnic groups do not see themselves as engaging in criminal activity. According to their code of conduct you’re only a criminal if you rip off members of your own tribe. They don’t recognize law or morality which is applicable equally to everyone.

    You’ll notice that this mindset describes all the various factions which make up the Democratic Party just as much as it does the Roma.

    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Depends on your definition of “criminal”. Ethnic groups which prey on other ethnic groups do not see themselves as engaging in criminal activity. According to their code of conduct you’re only a criminal if you rip off members of your own tribe."

    If you are only a criminal if you rip off members of your own tribe, than Blacks are the biggest criminals on the planet because the vast majority of Black suffering is caused by other Blacks. The vast majority of Black who are robbed at gunpoint are robbed by other Blacks. The vast majority of Black rape victims are raped by other Blacks. The vast majority of Black homicide victims are murdered by other Blacks. The vast majority of Black assault and battery victims are physically assaulted by other Blacks. Blacks are their own worst enemies.
  132. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    May as well warn people about a common Gypsy ripoff. They identify seniors living alone and target them by pulling up in an official looking van and getting out dressed in work uniforms. They tell the seniors they’re from the water department and want to check the water pressure. They get the senior to take them into the kitchen or basement and take up their time by having them run water. Meanwhile other gypsies slip in and ransack the place. Lots of seniors have lost everything they had since some of them had all their money and valuables in their home. They change the appearance of their van by having signs on them that they can peel off. If you have an elderly relative or friend you might want to warn them about this. Gypsies may look poor but often they’re much wealthier than what they seem.

    • Replies: @Stan D Mute

    Gypsies may look poor but often they’re much wealthier than what they seem.
     
    A LOT - LOT - wealthier.

    Look up "Cops and Gypsies" by Bob Norman in the Broward New Times. There are dozens of VERY wealthy gypsy clans (many named "Marks") down here and stories pop up from time to time in the papers. They're drawn to silly superstitious old white women like moths to a flame. Some writer of romance books got clipped for millions not long ago.
  133. @e
    In a similar vein, did you see this? (Think they'd greet notion of a pill that made gays straight with such an upbeat story?)

    (full article) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150319143414.htm

    Intro:
    Altering brain chemistry makes us more sensitive to inequality
    Date:
    March 19, 2015
    Source:
    University of California - Berkeley
    Summary:
    What if there were a pill that made you more compassionate? A new study finds that giving a drug that changes the neurochemical balance in the brain causes a greater willingness to engage in prosocial behaviors, such as ensuring that resources are divided more equally.

    Read “The Giving Plague” by Brin.

  134. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @The most deplorable one
    News item on the US Shoplifting study but it does not contain a link to the actual study and seems very obsessed with busting stereotypes ...

    Who Actually Steals appears to be the report of the study, and it says:

    The generalizability of our findings is somewhat limited by the
    fact that we collected data from a single retail store.

  135. @Reg Cæsar


    Maybe cultures where “Smith” is the most average name tend to wind up doing better than ones where metalworking is some weird voodoo restricted by caste.

     

    Schmidt is second to Müller in Germany. Maybe malt and hops were more important than iron.

    Read “The Drawing of the Dark” by Tim Powers. Good story and shows that secretly beer is the root of civilization.

  136. After a brief silence, she explained that she grew up in a city close to the Austrian border and that she always felt like an outsider when her family would cross over to go shopping. Daroczi couldn’t help interjecting; after the fall of communism, he said, Hungarians crossed the border in droves, mostly to purchase basic goods. “It was written in Hungarian on the walls of the shops, ‘Hungarians: don’t steal!’ ” he said.

    And what caused the Austrians to perceive Hungarians as prone to shoplifting?

    Do I even have to ask this question?

    Nazism. The ineradicable legacy of Nazism. The idea that it could have anything to do with actual Hungarian behaviour… Excuse me, how does that make even the slightest sense?

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    Hungarians under Communism were very poor. They had no money so visitors to Vienna would occasionally try to shoplift, especially since Communism taught them that capitalist societies were immoral which implied it was almost patriotic to steal. Czechs and Slovaks were no different, but they had a harder time getting to Vienna in those days. The idea that "Hungarians steal" quickly vanished in any case as relations normalized and Communism collapsed. The idea that this particular Austrian stereotype has anything to do with Nazis is ridiculous. The Hungarians fought on the German side in WWII.
    , @reiner Tor
    I wrote that already but repetition is the mother of all learning. I'm Hungarian, and Hungarians will readily admit a lot of Hungarians were shoplifting. Not all, not even the majority, but enough to make the Austrians notice. The Hungarian press at the time was full of stories about it, and many were lamenting how the behavior of some (quite a few) of our compatriots was tarnishing our reputations. After twenty-five years, you can still find references to it in the press.

    And yes, it is used to "fight prejudice against the Roma", telling Hungarians "and how did that feel when blah blah blah and the Austrians wrote signs 'Hungarians don't steal'?"
  137. @Lot

    Over the years I’ve examined and found a trait of sociopath in most liberals.
     
    If most liberals are sociopaths, and about 30% of the population are liberals, than >15% of the population is sociopathic. That's crank talk.

    “Over the years I’ve examined and found a trait of sociopath in most liberals.”

    If most liberals are sociopaths, and about 30% of the population are liberals, than >15% of the population is sociopathic. That’s crank talk.

    The writing is not very clear, but I’d read “a trait of sociopath” as meaning “a certain tendency to sociopathy”, in which case 15%+ of the population doesn’t seem unrealistic. I mean, most of us have *some* tendency to various psychological problems, though in most cases these tendencies don’t become important or dominant aspects of our personalities.

  138. @London Observer
    Quite a few Roma gypsies have moved to England. They've begun distinguishing themselves as pickpockets, beggars and skillful thieves, although rarely carry out their crimes with violence. Some make money by busking and the quality of their musicianship is good. Apart from that, it's not obvious what they have to offer us.

    Native English gypsies, who have lived here for several centuries, are generally more law-abiding. Most now live in houses and have jobs, although they face increased competition with East Europeans for traditional lines of work such as seasonal fruit-picking on farms.

    Irish travellers are a more recent addition to the UK and some of them simply live outside the law altogether like modern-day brigands. Their lifestyles have been featured extensively in Channel 4 programs with titles like 'My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding'.

    Presumably these were intended to humanise their subjects and enlighten the viewing public. But the most obvious message was that you too might be able to afford absurdly ostentatious weddings and top-of-the-range Landrovers if you don't pay any taxes.

    Some [Gypsies] make money by busking and the quality of their musicianship is good. Apart from that, it’s not obvious what they have to offer us.

    And yet that is more than what incompetent bungling pseudo-scientists like Dr. Bruneau have to offer us.

    The begging, thieving, scamming Gypsies, if only by sharpening a knife or paving a driveway now and then, contribute something of value to society. Whereas Dr. Bruneau and his ilk, though more respectable, by their efforts in their vocation contribute nothing of value.

  139. @SPMoore8
    Not what I see. They certainly don’t look like “everyone else” in the US. (I.e. compared to the mostly NW European mix that is typical of US whites.)

    Depends on what Gypsies you know, I guess. They tend to be darker than northern Europeans, but I can't really tell them apart from Italians, Jews, Romanians, Armenians, Turks, or any number of East European nationalities (needless to say there are huge numbers of White Americans connected to the first two groups). Add the Irish Travellers to the mix, and you've got problems. I mean, I never looked at Charlie Chaplin and had my "Roma-dar" go off.

    But, OK, I'll mark it down that at least one person thinks that Gypsies are primarily genetic rather than cultural.

    But, OK, I’ll mark it down that at least one person thinks that Gypsies are primarily genetic rather than cultural.

    It’s not an either/or. Their culture comes from their genes; it’s a phenotype that is influenced, of course, by the environment in which their genes express themselves. And their genetic makeup differs from that of Whites in Europe.

  140. Professor Bruneau fights for diversity and integration
    First from Peninsula School
    then from Menlo School
    then from Stanford University
    then from back at Menlo
    then from back at Peninsula…

  141. Wherever there are whites hallucinating about the other, there are other whites romanticizing the same other.

    Both Schumann’s Zigeunerleben (Gypsy life) and Brahms’ Zigeunerlieder (Gypsy songs) are back in vogue for high school, college, and community choirs. My wife and I sang the latter and she conducted the former in the last six months.

  142. For non Bay Area readers, these schools are located in the richest whitest places you can possibly imagine. Especially Menlo – in Atherton of all places, where Silicon Valley’s mere millionaires can’t afford to live. Bruneau spent the first 30 years of his life protected from encountering even ordinary Americans. Will he ever turn his microscope on himself? I wonder what makes him tick, his hunt for ever more extreme minorities?

  143. Wally [AKA "BobbyBeGood"] says: • Website
    @North Carolina Resident
    Speaking of stealing... Google University of Florida Shoplifting Study.


    Overall, blacks and Hispanics were no more likely than whites to steal merchandise. However, when race and gender were examined by subcategory, Hispanic females stole the most, shoplifting at more than seven times the rate of white females, he said.

    “Overall, blacks and Hispanics were no more likely than whites to steal merchandise.”

    Right, a ‘university study’ is always accurate and never biased against whites, never.

  144. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous
    Literally millions upon millions of foreigners have moved in on England as of late, and in particular during the disastrous New Labour regime, and 'not being able to utter a word of English, didn't seem to put not one darned one off.
    In fact, due to 'equality' and 'anti-discrimination' laws passed in the UK, non-English speakers are entitled, as of right, to interpreters, to do all their messy business. Not only that, but they go right to the front of the line for those coveted council houses, which millions of indigenous Britons have been patiently waiting decades for.

    “Not only that, but they go right to the front of the line for those coveted council houses, which millions of indigenous Britons have been patiently waiting decades for.”

    I think this is similarly true for many Americans whose parents and ancestors have been patiently working their way up the ladder, trying to give their kids advantages, and then newcomers get advantages because of their minority status, even though they have nothing to do with our country or making it what it is.

  145. @Lot

    They tend to be darker than northern Europeans, but I can’t really tell them apart from Italians, Jews, Romanians, Armenians, Turks, or any number of East European nationalities (needless to say there are huge numbers of White Americans connected to the first two groups).
     
    Looking at a bunch of pictures online, certainly many Gypsies look white, but most have obvious Indian ancestry.

    You really think you could mistake these guys here for a bunch of Italians, Greeks, Jews, or Southern Slavs?

    Roma in Spain:

    http://tradiciondigital.es/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/a27.jpg


    Roma in France:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Tziganes_aux_Saintes-Maries_de_la_Mer.jpg


    Roma in Slovakia:

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-O0vorsGWQHg/UCTZNE6W1DI/AAAAAAAAAUI/LH2fJ1KE-D4/s1600/Slovakia+Roma+village.jpg

    Looking at a bunch of pictures online, certainly many Gypsies look white, but most have obvious Indian ancestry.

    But quite a few South Asians look white too. Try a Google image search for “Bollywood star.” Another good example is the late Benazir Bhutto:

  146. “What’s Wrong With White People” should just be WWWWP, or even 4WP, for shorthand in these discussions. Would save time.

  147. @Anonymous
    Literally millions upon millions of foreigners have moved in on England as of late, and in particular during the disastrous New Labour regime, and 'not being able to utter a word of English, didn't seem to put not one darned one off.
    In fact, due to 'equality' and 'anti-discrimination' laws passed in the UK, non-English speakers are entitled, as of right, to interpreters, to do all their messy business. Not only that, but they go right to the front of the line for those coveted council houses, which millions of indigenous Britons have been patiently waiting decades for.

    I saw some video of Farange being attacked by some supercilious twit on the BBC over Farange’s comments on “Romanians” and crime in Britain. I didn’t make the connection to the Roma at the time and it seemed a little mysterious to me.

  148. @Anonymous
    Strangely enough, the British colonialists of India actually labelled entire castes as 'criminal castes' and passed Acts specifically aimed at criminal castes. Apparently these castes made a .living through criminality since time immemorial, and were well known by other Indians for this.
    Perhaps the Roma were always a 'criminal caste' all along.

    The Roma genetic origins have been traced to Northern India, about 1,500 years ago. They were probably camp followers for a military expedition, or were simply pushed out by the Muslim invasion; once they got over the Khyber Pass it was all downhill. They seem to have come from the lower castes, specifically the Domba, who are known for their musical ability and blacksmithing.

  149. @Anonymous
    Put it this way, what do they do to actually *stop* criminal propensities manifesting in their children?
    Whatever they do as parents *they simply cannot* be inculcating a sense of morality and right and wrong in their children.

    You might not be aware what Gypsies are doing. They are actively training their children to become criminals. In Hungary when you read in the news that start like “seven minors from the same family, the youngest being just six years old, broke into a storehouse, while four adults waited outside with two cars…”, then you know those are Gypsies. They actively train their minors to become habitual criminals. They use them often because under Hungarian law under the age of twelve nobody can be punished for any crime at all, so Gypsy families can use them as pickpockets, and if they are caught, the parents will deny any involvement. Sometimes they use them for break-ins, though when cars are also involved, it’s difficult for the parents (and other accompanying relatives) to deny involvement. (And to me it’s astonishing that they still deny it. One characteristic of Gypsies is that they will lie plainly and loudly, with one sentence contradicting the other, and expecting to get away with it. Of course it’s not totally irrational, because with minor crimes the police will get tired of the dozens of relatives each providing alibis to each other, with the many stories of course contradicting each other, and even different versions of the same story by the same person contradicting each other, and the police often judge it’s just simply not worth writing it all down unless there’s a chance to get at least somebody into prison. But Gypsies limited mental capacity can be seen from the fact that they employ similar tactics when trying to get away with murder, and of course it doesn’t work.)

  150. I’d think that the physique that results from pounding iron all day for years might earn a bit of respect, too.

  151. @Steve Sailer
    Irish Tinkers ... they do something with metal, right? Gypsies in Eastern Europe made a fair amount of money stealing metal from state-owned factories after 1989, like low-rent Marc Riches.

    In the Arab world, blacksmithery was often reserved for blacks.

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes? Granted, the Gypsies are from India a long time ago. But it seems odd.

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes?

    Around the world, weren’t many occupations traditionally performed only by certain groups? Compared with other areas, India probably developed a more elaborate scheme for this thanks to its greater population and levels of group competition. Key aspects of Hinduism seem to reflect this.

    And as Jared Diamond likes to point out, having metal weapons gives you a big advantage over people with only stone and wood. Initially, I can see how early bronze or iron workers would have guarded trade secrets in order to protect their status and livelihood. Forming an endogamous caste may have been one way to do that. A sanctioned caste, similar to the medieval guilds, may also have made it easier for elites to take a cut on the weapons trade and control their rivals’ access to it. Governments still do this –think security clearances and nuclear treaties.

    Incidentally, in Journey Without Maps, I think Graham Greene describes how in certain parts of Liberia, the village blacksmith is the one who also runs the “bush schools” where adolescent males are initiated as adults. In parts of East Africa, the men who operate traditional forges, sing overtly sexual songs while stoking the enclosed smelting fire through long tubes. The forge is thought of as female. With that in mind, maybe in West Africa there’s an idea that there’s some sort of esoteric fertility knowledge that only blacksmiths really know, and that’s why they’re the ones conducting the male initiations. I’m just hypothesizing and perhaps I’ve mixed up some details.

    Also, I’m not sure if this was mentioned, but unlike some other historically persecuted minority groups, don’t the Roma tend to practice the same religion (at least nominally) as most of the people around them?

  152. @Anonymous
    Literally millions upon millions of foreigners have moved in on England as of late, and in particular during the disastrous New Labour regime, and 'not being able to utter a word of English, didn't seem to put not one darned one off.
    In fact, due to 'equality' and 'anti-discrimination' laws passed in the UK, non-English speakers are entitled, as of right, to interpreters, to do all their messy business. Not only that, but they go right to the front of the line for those coveted council houses, which millions of indigenous Britons have been patiently waiting decades for.

    Romanian Gypsies are more mobile than Hungarian ones, because they either speak Romanian or Romani or both, and those being Indo-European (and in the case of Romanian, Romance) languages, it’s easier for them to get themselves understood in countries like Spain, France or Italy. It’s also easier for them to learn another Indo-European language like English.

    Hungarian Gypsies are – unfortunately for Hungarians – among the least mobile ones. It doesn’t mean you in the UK won’t be able to enjoy their presence soon – I’m sure they will enrich your culture, and I’m sure some of them already are making your cities even more vibrant than Pakistanis and Jamaicans do. However, I’m largely skeptical about all of them moving permanently to the UK.

    I think we can be optimistic about their fate: their numbers will likely keep growing in Hungary to make it more diverse than ever, however, they will also settle in the UK in sufficient numbers to visibly strengthen the UK through diversity and petty crime.

    Regarding interpreters, I’m sure they’ll learn English just fine, but find it more prudent to pretend they don’t understand the language. I bet you they can speak just enough English they need for their scams, but not enough to understand the police.

  153. Keep in mind that metalwork taboos were not unknown in pre-Christian Europe either, especially in Ancient Rome. The Pontifex Maximus (not the Pope, but the head of the pagan Roman religion before Augustus), for example, was not even allowed to touch anything made of iron lest he become ritually impure. That was a big deal for the Romans. The flamens (major priests) and vestal virgins labored under similar superstitions that kept them very far away from a lot of metals, as well as the various other things that were universally taboo (dead bodies, etc.) in the old religions (of which really only Hinduism and Shinto survive).

  154. @George

    What about all these busybody NGOs that seem to be everywhere these days?
     
    Send them to Africa with contraceptives.

    No. Send them to Africa WITHOUT contraceptives so they would enjoy the diseases of their darlings.

  155. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    From what I’ve seen, a particular subset of the lowest-down, trashiest, rat-faced, stunted, runty type of white trash – which I believe is all indigineous- which was formerly, or perhaps still is, to be found in slum land England, particularly London, it seems that they were some sort of Dickensian throwback, did, as a matter of course teach their children to thieve and steal, right off from the time they could toddle.
    I’m sure any old school London copper would agree with me here. Shitty inner city London ‘comprehensive schools’ of the 1970s, another big Labour Party idea, were infested with this trash.
    But, it seems that this authentic English trash has more or less melted away like the March snow after the influx of even nastier types from tropical overseas.

  156. @Steve Sailer
    Are Irish Travellers and Gypsies examples of convergent cultural evolution? Has anybody done a compare and contrast on the two groups?

    “Has anybody done a compare and contrast on the two groups?”

    George Borrow, Victorian writer, polymath and eccentric :

    https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/b/borrow/george/wild/chapter14.html

    We continued our way, and presently saw marks of a fire in some grass by the side of the road.

    “Have the Gipsiaid been there?” said I to my guide.

    “Hardly, sir; I should rather think that the the Gwyddelaid (Irish) have been camping there lately.”

    “The Gwyddeliad?”

    “Yes, sir, the vagabond Gwyddeliad, who at present infest these parts much, and do much more harm than the Gipsiaid ever did.”

    “What do you mean by the Gipsiaid?”

    “Dark, handsome people, sir, who occasionally used to come about in vans and carts, the men buying and selling horses, and sometimes tinkering, whilst the women told fortunes.”

    “And they have ceased to come about?”

    “Nearly so, sir; I believe they have been frightened away by the Gwyddelod.”

    “What kind of people are these Gwyddelod?

    “Savage, brutish people, sir; in general without shoes and stockings, with coarse features and heads of hair like mops.”

    “How do they live?”

    “The men tinker a little, sir, but more frequently plunder. The women tell fortunes, and steal whenever they can.”

    “They live something like the Gipsiaid.”

    “Something, sir; but the hen Gipsiaid were gentlefolks in comparison.”

    “You think the Gipsiaid have been frightened away by the Gwyddelians?”

    “I do, sir; the Gwyddelod made their appearance in these parts about twenty years ago, and since then the Gipsiaid have been rarely seen.”

    “Are these Gwyddelod poor?”

    “By no means, sir; they make large sums by plundering and other means, with which, ’tis said, they retire at last to their own country or America, where they buy land and settle down.”

  157. @Harry Baldwin
    How come the greater that you are exposed to/ know an oppressed minority (fill in the blank), the greater you are prejudiced? Isn’t that called experience?

    It could be called postjudiced.
    Urban Dictionary-- Postjudice: Not liking a person or group with a good reason. Having had experience with a person, you do not like that person. A rational generalization.

    Rationality has literally become a crime.

  158. While I do not know the number or gypsies SPMoore8 has encountered, or where, I can definitively state that they are easily distinguished from the majority population in Bulgaria (where I spent almost 2 years). There is a great deal of genetic diversity among the Bulgarians, including classic “Slavic” types with blonde hair, blue eyes, and high cheekbones, as well as a large number with olive skin, dark hair, and dark eyes – but still definitely Caucasoid phenotypes – perhaps a legacy of their centuries under Ottoman occupation. Either way, the “Tsigani” were easy to identify. FWIW, I spent a fair amount of time in Turkey as well, and while there was a relatively small number of people amongst whom the gypsies might have blended in, they would again have stood out against most. Their skins are darker, their eyes and faces have a different shape. I spent quite a bit of time reporting on the Bulgarian expulsion of their “ethnic Turks,” and even there, found almost none who could pass as gypsies, but plenty with fair skin and blue eyes.

    In all fairness, how much this might be ameliorated by washing and grooming, I can’t really say. They almost uniformly stank, and looked incredibly dusty and grime coated. There was a moderate-skinned black American family that adopted a gypsy boy, and they noted how well his complexion fit with theirs. However, pending the finalization of the adoption, they had to keep returning him to his birth mother every week (complicated story,) and each time he returned he again needed to be deloused.

    There was a post on the old Mangan’s blog about the gypsy belief system (I can’t find it right now) that went into great detail about their system of “marime,” and various taboos. A large percentage of them strongly reminded me of Orthodox Jewish taboos regarding menstruating women, and things that were “unclean.” Add in some rather unusual superstitions and cultural beliefs, combine with a highly inbred DNA, and you have a rather distinct, physically and culturally endogamous group that cannot blend in well with the host society.

  159. @David R. Merridale
    After a brief silence, she explained that she grew up in a city close to the Austrian border and that she always felt like an outsider when her family would cross over to go shopping. Daroczi couldn’t help interjecting; after the fall of communism, he said, Hungarians crossed the border in droves, mostly to purchase basic goods. “It was written in Hungarian on the walls of the shops, ‘Hungarians: don’t steal!’ ” he said.

    And what caused the Austrians to perceive Hungarians as prone to shoplifting?

    Do I even have to ask this question?

    Nazism. The ineradicable legacy of Nazism. The idea that it could have anything to do with actual Hungarian behaviour... Excuse me, how does that make even the slightest sense?

    Hungarians under Communism were very poor. They had no money so visitors to Vienna would occasionally try to shoplift, especially since Communism taught them that capitalist societies were immoral which implied it was almost patriotic to steal. Czechs and Slovaks were no different, but they had a harder time getting to Vienna in those days. The idea that “Hungarians steal” quickly vanished in any case as relations normalized and Communism collapsed. The idea that this particular Austrian stereotype has anything to do with Nazis is ridiculous. The Hungarians fought on the German side in WWII.

    • Replies: @David R. Merridale
    I thought it was fairly obvious that I was being sarcastic.
    , @David R. Merridale
    When I visited Vienna last year I got a couple of Hungarian taxi-drivers, who were commuting back to their families in Hungary. One of them told me what he was earning in Austria. I've forgotten the figure, but vastly more than he made in Hungary. I was also told that Austrians travel to Hungary for cheap dentistry; I noticed one dentist advertising "Austrian quality at Hungarian prices".
  160. What has happened to Western Europe in the past few decades? I lived and traveled extensively in Western Europe in the 1970s and vacationed in Britain and Germany through the 1990s. I NEVER encountered a Roma in any of these travels. I did have my pocket picked in Naples, but the kind Italian gentleman was considerate enough to leave my car keys with the street car conductor 🙂

    Does this demographic change have anything to do with the fall of the Soviet Union and the opening of the borders as a prelude to mass migration from Eastern Europe to Western Europe? Do the noted dysfunctional cultural patterns of many of these immigrants have something to do with the “communal” nature of Communist ideology; that is, that one has a class-given prerogative to expropriate wealth from the corrupt bourgeois defined as anyone having more than you? Likewise, if all else fails, it the state’s job to look out after you.

    Corruption? We met a Czech family in a camp ground in Austria circa 1975. Over a bottle of terrible Hungarian wine, the family could not resist tale after tale of the bribery and corruption in their Communist Paradise. Nothing worked and everyone was on the make. Is the same social rot that brought down the Soviet Union and its satellites now (via immigration) infecting Western Europe?

  161. @David R. Merridale
    After a brief silence, she explained that she grew up in a city close to the Austrian border and that she always felt like an outsider when her family would cross over to go shopping. Daroczi couldn’t help interjecting; after the fall of communism, he said, Hungarians crossed the border in droves, mostly to purchase basic goods. “It was written in Hungarian on the walls of the shops, ‘Hungarians: don’t steal!’ ” he said.

    And what caused the Austrians to perceive Hungarians as prone to shoplifting?

    Do I even have to ask this question?

    Nazism. The ineradicable legacy of Nazism. The idea that it could have anything to do with actual Hungarian behaviour... Excuse me, how does that make even the slightest sense?

    I wrote that already but repetition is the mother of all learning. I’m Hungarian, and Hungarians will readily admit a lot of Hungarians were shoplifting. Not all, not even the majority, but enough to make the Austrians notice. The Hungarian press at the time was full of stories about it, and many were lamenting how the behavior of some (quite a few) of our compatriots was tarnishing our reputations. After twenty-five years, you can still find references to it in the press.

    And yes, it is used to “fight prejudice against the Roma”, telling Hungarians “and how did that feel when blah blah blah and the Austrians wrote signs ‘Hungarians don’t steal’?”

  162. @Anonymous
    From what I read in mythology and ancient history, the ancient and honorable trade of the blacksmith was always very well respected by ancient peoples, in that blacksmiths were thought to have held arcane and 'magical' secrets regarding the mysterious transformation of rocks and fire into metal. Anyhow, the blacksmith was a well respected member of any community due to the utility of iron articles of all manner, and the long training needed to acquire the skills necessary.
    Gypsies lead a nomadic life. It's difficult to envision Gypsies carrying around all the elaborate equipment a blacksmith, any blacksmith ie forge, bellows, anvil, tongs, hammers, etc, around with them on their travels.

    One of the most typical Hungarian Gypsy surnames is Lakatos, which means locksmith. I think a lot of them were locksmiths.

    • Replies: @Truth

    One of the most typical Hungarian Gypsy surnames is Lakatos, which means locksmith. I think a lot of them were locksmiths.

     

    One of the most common ethnic Hungarian surnames is Kovacs, which means "ironworker."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMM1ZWTtHDk

  163. There have always been some settled gypsies. I grew up in a rural town with a horse race track near and we had a permanent gypsy minority. Horse breeding is one of the traditional professions that they don’t consider a problem and trust me they’re not lazy or useless when working with horses for the race track. They’re also perfectly capable of grasping the idea of dropping the total sociopathy to fit in – more than a few times I would hear a gypsy mom in a store explain to her kid something like “it’s a local store, don’t do that here”.

    Gypsies here are pretty European mixed though, eg. some random photo

    which I picked up from an article (http://www.kaleva.fi/uutiset/oulu/romanit-kiinni-tyon-syrjaan/192301/) that talks about, you’ll never guess it, the lousy employment situation and the discrimination that causes it. (They’re all gypsies, I can tell from the names.) Outcasts sometimes joined the gypsies and I assume ours were more accepting because there weren’t that many families and their feuds often prevent marriages. Now we have two types running around and the ones from Romania look much more South Asian than our old ones.

    At the school I went to the gypsies all went to the retard track with Down syndrome kids etc. Not because they were put there because of “discrimination” but because they had realized that it’s the easy way for their kids to fulfill the legal requirement of going to school.

    Back when Sweden invented the welfare state there was a giant sucking sound as many of our gypsies moved there (the reason they were here in the first place is because the Swedes dumped them on us some hundreds of years ago). Of course back then multiculti hadn’t taken over yet so they responded with a lot of anti-gypsy policies up to forced sterilizations and now that is a huge embarrassment for them.

    We call them “black people” (mustalainen) while they call us “white people” (valkolainen). There are other words but none of them are very powerfully derogatory. It is impossible to accumulate derogatory power on a word referring to gypsies because it doesn’t matter what you call them, they will just completely, utterly ignore white people opinion. Any word will be racist if they think they can shame someone into giving them stuff but if you ignore them it will stop and it will be obvious that they’re not genuinely hurt by racist words. It is much better to never use the PC words as they might think you’re one of those people who can be guilt tripped.

  164. @Steve Sailer
    Irish Tinkers ... they do something with metal, right? Gypsies in Eastern Europe made a fair amount of money stealing metal from state-owned factories after 1989, like low-rent Marc Riches.

    In the Arab world, blacksmithery was often reserved for blacks.

    Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes? Granted, the Gypsies are from India a long time ago. But it seems odd.

    In America the Irish Travellers are more about driveway sealing scams.

  165. Naturally. It’s my fault that I don’t have empathy for assholes and criminal psychopaths.

  166. “In Budapest, whenever he found himself chatting with Roma activists who were not themselves Roma, he would ask them why they wanted to help. He had a hunch that if he put any of these “non-Roma Roma” in the scanner, and then compared their results with those of other Hungarians, they, too, would end up as blue dots in a sea of red. He reasoned that something somewhere in their lives had overridden their implicit biases and moved them to behave with greater empathy toward the minority group. He wanted to know what that something was. “If we could figure out how it happens,” he said, “maybe we could harness it somehow.” …” – given that it is not a particularly successful survival strategy, I’d say the gypsies are already harnessing it to the fullest extent possible.

    “My parents owned a service business. Every few months, the gypsies would show up, give our clerk a $20 bill, get their change, then insist they’d given her a $50 dollar bill, and a big scene would ensue, with the women screaming that we ripped them off. It always ended unsatisfactorily for them, but they ALWAYS came back a month or two later, with the same scam!” – Pareto principle in action.


    “Yes, most often getting pregnant.” – that was pretty rare compared to the 30+% of their genome that comes from Africa these days. but yeah, the Arab upper classes liked to surround themselves with Europeans, and when they stopped being able to do their their empires fell into disarray.

  167. @ Steve Sailer: “Has anybody ever come up with a theory for why metal workers tended to end up in Hindu-like castes?”

    I think V. Gordon Childe writes about this in Man Makes Himself and, maybe, in What Happened in History. If I recall, he said that metallurgy was an arcane art, surrounded with secrecy and superstition, and that the metal workers themselves often travelled (in families, groups? can’t remember) trading their goods with settled populations.

  168. @Truth
    85.Anonymous
    says:

    March 23, 2015 at 8:07 am GMT

    @Steve Sailer




    Blacks.


    Why thank you for your contribution sir, you've mastered the colors in the crayola box now, good luck with the days of the week.

    No “Truth”,

    A very significant percentage of black kids are raised to hate and take advantage of non-blacks.

    And you know this.

    To be sure, you may have been raised differently, but you KNOW this is true.

    • Replies: @Truth
    LOL, why are you directing this at me? I didn't say anything.
  169. @Lot

    Over the years I’ve examined and found a trait of sociopath in most liberals.
     
    If most liberals are sociopaths, and about 30% of the population are liberals, than >15% of the population is sociopathic. That's crank talk.

    “Ethnic majorities will certainly become browner in Europe and North America through inter-racial marriage, but the porous nature of dominant groups should allow assimilation to counter the zero-sum nature of a changing ethnic composition. Demographic pressure is intense and will only become stronger in our century, but the liberalism of host societies seems sufficient to dissipate this energy. Let us make the bold assumption that white flight and the rise of the far right are momentary phenomena and that younger generations will be more comfortable with higher levels of ethnic diversity, accepting racial ‘browning’ through intermarriage more readily.”

    http://www.sneps.net/RD/uploads/1-Shall%20the%20Religious%20Inherit%20the%20Earth.pdf

    How would you interpret this Harvard study, LOP (lump of protoplasm)?

  170. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot

    ‘Hungarians: don’t steal!’ 
     
    I wonder if, along the Austrian border with Hungary, "Hungarians" is a more delicate way of saying "Gypsies," the same way "Romanians" is in the UK.

    more or less correct.
    when the border opened up, and hungarians went to austria to shop, a whole lot of gypsies, who where hungarian citizens and spoke (more or less) hungarian, also went to austria where they could steal and rob more than in impoverished hungary.
    and from the austrians point of view it looked like as if hungarians were doing it. or, more to be more precise, they confounded gypsies with hungarians.

  171. @syonredux

    The Roma who do escape the settlements often shed their ethnic identities — either deliberately or by default. “So for example, the dominant group may accept a Roma who comes from the settlement and somehow makes it into college,” Kende says. “But it’s not, ‘Oh, now this changes my perception of Roma.’ It’s, ‘Oh, well that person is not really Roma.’ And then what you have left is, the word ‘Roma’ becomes shorthand for ‘dirty, lazy, thief.’ ” Those norms are so pervasive, she said, that the Roma themselves have adopted them.
     
    Sounds like Ron Unz's theory that there are tons of successful Mestizo Hispanics.We just don't notice them because they have all assimilated into White Anglo society:"See, all those stalled third generation Hispanic Mestizos? They are just the dregs, the ones who couldn't make it! All the successful ones have non-Spanish names and are married to Irish people, etc"

    “Sounds like Ron Unz’s theory that there are tons of successful Mestizo Hispanics.”

    If Ron Unz’s theory was correct, you would be seeing affluent Mestizo neighborhoods popping up all over The United States, but so far every Mestizo neighborhood I have seen has been lower working class. There is a reason it is not called Gentrification when a neighborhood goes from being predominantly Black to being predominantly Mestizo. Gentrification brings upon prosperity and the heavy presence of Mestizos certainly does not bring upon prosperity.

  172. Mr. “Big Bill”

    You wrote:
    “Freud and his cultists originated this technique. It isn’t surprising that his acolytes and co-religionists transplanted it to America and Russia.”

    To America Yes.

    To Russia: No!!!

    Freud was prohibited under Stalin

    sf

  173. Under the 3 race theory of Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid, Gypsies are technically “White”. At least Gypsies have more of a legit claim to Whiteness than Ron Unz’s favorite group the Mestizos who have significant Mongoloid ancestry by way of the Aztecs , Incans, Mayans, Guaranis, Mapuches, etc.

  174. @AP
    I had an experience that reflected the pre-industrial days. On an "elektrichka" (commuter train) in rural western Ukraine that serviced villages outside Lviv, two barefoot gypsy girls, about 10-12 years old, got onto our car. They sang Ukrainian folk songs beautifully and in harmony, asked for money, and then walked to the next car.

    No group is entirely without redeeming value, and for gypsies it’s folk music, both their own gypsy music and folk music they pick up from the peoples around. At least, this used to be the case. Maybe it’s all gypsy rap nowadays, but please no.

  175. @Peter Akuleyev
    Hungarians under Communism were very poor. They had no money so visitors to Vienna would occasionally try to shoplift, especially since Communism taught them that capitalist societies were immoral which implied it was almost patriotic to steal. Czechs and Slovaks were no different, but they had a harder time getting to Vienna in those days. The idea that "Hungarians steal" quickly vanished in any case as relations normalized and Communism collapsed. The idea that this particular Austrian stereotype has anything to do with Nazis is ridiculous. The Hungarians fought on the German side in WWII.

    I thought it was fairly obvious that I was being sarcastic.

  176. @Greenstalk
    Depends on your definition of "criminal". Ethnic groups which prey on other ethnic groups do not see themselves as engaging in criminal activity. According to their code of conduct you're only a criminal if you rip off members of your own tribe. They don't recognize law or morality which is applicable equally to everyone.

    You'll notice that this mindset describes all the various factions which make up the Democratic Party just as much as it does the Roma.

    “Depends on your definition of “criminal”. Ethnic groups which prey on other ethnic groups do not see themselves as engaging in criminal activity. According to their code of conduct you’re only a criminal if you rip off members of your own tribe.”

    If you are only a criminal if you rip off members of your own tribe, than Blacks are the biggest criminals on the planet because the vast majority of Black suffering is caused by other Blacks. The vast majority of Black who are robbed at gunpoint are robbed by other Blacks. The vast majority of Black rape victims are raped by other Blacks. The vast majority of Black homicide victims are murdered by other Blacks. The vast majority of Black assault and battery victims are physically assaulted by other Blacks. Blacks are their own worst enemies.

  177. @Peter Akuleyev
    Hungarians under Communism were very poor. They had no money so visitors to Vienna would occasionally try to shoplift, especially since Communism taught them that capitalist societies were immoral which implied it was almost patriotic to steal. Czechs and Slovaks were no different, but they had a harder time getting to Vienna in those days. The idea that "Hungarians steal" quickly vanished in any case as relations normalized and Communism collapsed. The idea that this particular Austrian stereotype has anything to do with Nazis is ridiculous. The Hungarians fought on the German side in WWII.

    When I visited Vienna last year I got a couple of Hungarian taxi-drivers, who were commuting back to their families in Hungary. One of them told me what he was earning in Austria. I’ve forgotten the figure, but vastly more than he made in Hungary. I was also told that Austrians travel to Hungary for cheap dentistry; I noticed one dentist advertising “Austrian quality at Hungarian prices”.

  178. @Lot

    They tend to be darker than northern Europeans, but I can’t really tell them apart from Italians, Jews, Romanians, Armenians, Turks, or any number of East European nationalities (needless to say there are huge numbers of White Americans connected to the first two groups).
     
    Looking at a bunch of pictures online, certainly many Gypsies look white, but most have obvious Indian ancestry.

    You really think you could mistake these guys here for a bunch of Italians, Greeks, Jews, or Southern Slavs?

    Roma in Spain:

    http://tradiciondigital.es/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/a27.jpg


    Roma in France:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Tziganes_aux_Saintes-Maries_de_la_Mer.jpg


    Roma in Slovakia:

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-O0vorsGWQHg/UCTZNE6W1DI/AAAAAAAAAUI/LH2fJ1KE-D4/s1600/Slovakia+Roma+village.jpg

    “Looking at a bunch of pictures online, certainly many Gypsies look white, but most have obvious Indian ancestry.

    You really think you could mistake these guys here for a bunch of Italians, Greeks, Jews, or Southern Slavs?

    Roma in Spain:

    Roma in France:

    Roma in Slovakia:

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-O0vorsGWQHg/UCTZNE6W1DI/AAAAAAAAAUI/LH2fJ1KE-D4/s1600/Slovakia+Roma+village.jpg”

    I guess it depends on which type of Gypsies we are talking about, they seem to have a range of different phenotypes that range from South Asian looking to Mediterranean looking.

    On the TLC reality television show “My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding”, the Gypsies on that show tend to have similar phenotypes as the cast of “Jersey Shore”, “Growing Up Gotti”, “Mob Wives” and “Real Housewives Of New Jersey”.

    Meaning you would not mistake the cast of “My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding” for Nordic Anglo Saxon Protestants, but you would not mistake them for South Asian Indians and Sri Lankans either.

  179. @Steve Sailer
    Are there any other ethnic groups where parents traditionally train their small children to be criminals?

    Do the professional beggar castes of India count? Of course, they are the same ethnic group as Gypsies.

  180. “Gipsy, constitute one of the country’s largest minorities. According to the 2011 census, they number 621,573 people or 3.3% of the total population” From Wikipedia.

    Romanians are allowed to openly hate Roma. It doesn’t seem to make much difference, but at least it is socially acceptably to talk about what they see. Still, they are only a little over 3% of the population.

  181. @reiner Tor
    One of the most typical Hungarian Gypsy surnames is Lakatos, which means locksmith. I think a lot of them were locksmiths.

    One of the most typical Hungarian Gypsy surnames is Lakatos, which means locksmith. I think a lot of them were locksmiths.

    One of the most common ethnic Hungarian surnames is Kovacs, which means “ironworker.”

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    Except "Kovacs" is of Slavic origin. Wouldn't that name imply most of the metal workers in the Hungarian lands were probably originally ethnic Croatians or Slovaks?
    , @reiner Tor
    Yes, Kovács means blacksmith, so that would be the equivalent of the English surname Smith.

    I tried to solve the mystery of how Gypsies could have been "smiths" without carrying around huge metalworking equipment. They were locksmiths, which needed less equipment and was compatible with their mobile, nomadic lifestyles.
  182. @Anonymous
    No "Truth",

    A very significant percentage of black kids are raised to hate and take advantage of non-blacks.

    And you know this.

    To be sure, you may have been raised differently, but you KNOW this is true.

    LOL, why are you directing this at me? I didn’t say anything.

  183. @Anon
    I know someone who has spent their life trying to help Roma children in Romania. Motivated by religion he is perhaps the most moral, and kindest, person I have ever met. Despite the fact that he devotes his life to this cause he has become pretty cynical about the Roma and recognizes that little has been achieved. On the other hand those kind of setbacks just cause Jesuits to double down.
    It's also important to remember that just because you believe that a gap might always exist between the Roma and other Europeans doesn't mean this gap can't be narrowed and doesn't justify the extremely widespread persecution of Roma people in Romania.

    There is no persecution of gypsies in Romania.

  184. @Truth

    One of the most typical Hungarian Gypsy surnames is Lakatos, which means locksmith. I think a lot of them were locksmiths.

     

    One of the most common ethnic Hungarian surnames is Kovacs, which means "ironworker."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMM1ZWTtHDk

    Except “Kovacs” is of Slavic origin. Wouldn’t that name imply most of the metal workers in the Hungarian lands were probably originally ethnic Croatians or Slovaks?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    No, because the word 'kovács' itself became a Hungarian noun. There was no other way to call a blacksmith but 'kovács', so naturally the name stuck.

    It might imply that Hungarians learned metalworking from their Slavic neighbors, but even that seems to be untrue, because Hungarians came fully equipped with iron sabres and other iron weapons and tools.

    , @Truth
    That's a good question.
  185. @Truth

    One of the most typical Hungarian Gypsy surnames is Lakatos, which means locksmith. I think a lot of them were locksmiths.

     

    One of the most common ethnic Hungarian surnames is Kovacs, which means "ironworker."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMM1ZWTtHDk

    Yes, Kovács means blacksmith, so that would be the equivalent of the English surname Smith.

    I tried to solve the mystery of how Gypsies could have been “smiths” without carrying around huge metalworking equipment. They were locksmiths, which needed less equipment and was compatible with their mobile, nomadic lifestyles.

  186. @Peter Akuleyev
    Except "Kovacs" is of Slavic origin. Wouldn't that name imply most of the metal workers in the Hungarian lands were probably originally ethnic Croatians or Slovaks?

    No, because the word ‘kovács’ itself became a Hungarian noun. There was no other way to call a blacksmith but ‘kovács’, so naturally the name stuck.

    It might imply that Hungarians learned metalworking from their Slavic neighbors, but even that seems to be untrue, because Hungarians came fully equipped with iron sabres and other iron weapons and tools.

  187. http://bobarno.com/thiefhunters/beggars-in-stockholm/

    Gypsies now sit outside most of the bigger shops here in Sweden. Swedes compulsively stoop and drop a few coins as they walk past. I’ve stopped being angry about this. Not sure what the motivation is. Surely they know they are being scammed? Symbiotic relationship rather than parasitic. Today I witnessed a generous boy who was with his teenage sister, stop and give a lollypop to a gypsy. Very generous people.

  188. @Peter Akuleyev
    Except "Kovacs" is of Slavic origin. Wouldn't that name imply most of the metal workers in the Hungarian lands were probably originally ethnic Croatians or Slovaks?

    That’s a good question.

  189. @Steve Sailer
    A Hungarian classical pianist told me that some Gypsies got through Budapest's top classical music conservatory without ever being able to read music. They just faked their way through on raw talent. Dyslexia is a big problem for Gypsies, but not lack of musical ability.

    Very interesting. This might help us explain the creative explosion that profoundly shaped the Spanish culture. And shows us that the relationship between creativity and crime is more inconvenient than we think.

  190. @anonymous
    May as well warn people about a common Gypsy ripoff. They identify seniors living alone and target them by pulling up in an official looking van and getting out dressed in work uniforms. They tell the seniors they're from the water department and want to check the water pressure. They get the senior to take them into the kitchen or basement and take up their time by having them run water. Meanwhile other gypsies slip in and ransack the place. Lots of seniors have lost everything they had since some of them had all their money and valuables in their home. They change the appearance of their van by having signs on them that they can peel off. If you have an elderly relative or friend you might want to warn them about this. Gypsies may look poor but often they're much wealthier than what they seem.

    Gypsies may look poor but often they’re much wealthier than what they seem.

    A LOT – LOT – wealthier.

    Look up “Cops and Gypsies” by Bob Norman in the Broward New Times. There are dozens of VERY wealthy gypsy clans (many named “Marks”) down here and stories pop up from time to time in the papers. They’re drawn to silly superstitious old white women like moths to a flame. Some writer of romance books got clipped for millions not long ago.

  191. @Steve Sailer
    Maybe cultures where "Smith" is the most average name tend to wind up doing better than ones where metalworking is some weird voodoo restricted by caste.

    Maybe cultures where “Smith” is the most average name tend to wind up doing better than ones where metalworking is some weird voodoo restricted by caste.

    I guess during your Chicago years you never made it east of the border into Gary and the mills? They have historical photos in some admin buildings showing the men coming off shifts – they are coal black head to toe. They’d march through a row building where other workers would firehose the worst of it off before sending them through the gates and home. Even in today’s infinitely cleaner mills and metal fab shops, one ends the day blowing gobs of black crap from his nose.

    Metal work is DIRTY. Uniquely dirty like oilfield work can be, except its every single day. But there’s also a difference between a smith and a tinker. The tinker would have had a lot of lead exposure in the old days and I suspect he would look more like today’s scrappers (Detroiters know all about scrappers) than mill workers or fab shop guys (plumbers, pipe fitters, welders, tool & die, etc).

  192. Having read all the comments, I gotta wonder how many generations off the farm are you guys? Anybody here ever seen a farm? Worked in a metal shop or any type of factory? Just curious as a lot of institutional knowledge so to speak seems lost. I know Sailer’s dad worked in aerospace engineering, but was he farm raised or already one or two generations off the farm? My dad was a communications engineer, but farm raised and first to go to college. I was suburb raised but returned to the farm and spent a career consulting to factories that did everything from building cars to making baby food to pharmaceuticals to silicon chips. City boys seem to have missed something most of them. They are well read perhaps, but missing something..

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    "I know Sailer’s dad worked in aerospace engineering, but was he farm raised or already one or two generations off the farm?"

    No, technical bourgeoisie.

  193. @Stan D Mute
    Having read all the comments, I gotta wonder how many generations off the farm are you guys? Anybody here ever seen a farm? Worked in a metal shop or any type of factory? Just curious as a lot of institutional knowledge so to speak seems lost. I know Sailer's dad worked in aerospace engineering, but was he farm raised or already one or two generations off the farm? My dad was a communications engineer, but farm raised and first to go to college. I was suburb raised but returned to the farm and spent a career consulting to factories that did everything from building cars to making baby food to pharmaceuticals to silicon chips. City boys seem to have missed something most of them. They are well read perhaps, but missing something..

    “I know Sailer’s dad worked in aerospace engineering, but was he farm raised or already one or two generations off the farm?”

    No, technical bourgeoisie.

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