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White Flight from Chicago in 1970s Due to Racist Hysteria, Black Flight Today Due to Gun Violence
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When I type into Google Images “Austin Chicago” to find out what are the most popular pictures of my in-laws’ old neighborhood on the West Side of Chicago, here’s what I get:

Screenshot 2017-07-17 01.35.39

The suggested subtopics are “Ghetto, Gangs, Crime.”

Here’s a Chicago Tribune post from 2013 on “Street Photography in Austin.” (Photographer Alex Garcia’s notes below his pictures on the technical challenges of photographing a neighborhood known for its homicide rate are instructive.)

From the Chicago Tribune on Austin in 2017:

Austin is the city’s largest community area geographically, and was the most populated for 45 years. But as the West Side neighborhood’s gun violence has increased, so too has families’ realization that at any moment the shootings can creep into their blocks — even the good blocks. Austin’s residents are leaving, with some saying goodbye to the place they’ve called home their entire lives. …

Home to nearly 118,000 people in 2000, Austin has seen its population drop to 97,600, according to an average of census data collected between 2011 and 2015.

Here’s a Google Images recommended photo of Austin.

It has been overtaken by the North Side’s Lakeview neighborhood, whose population has remained steady since the 1980s and currently has about 98,200 residents.

Lakeview is home to Wrigley Field. I lived within a couple of miles of Wrigley Field from 1982-2000.

Chicago’s violence is at its highest since the drug wars of the 1990s, and Austin is center stage to many of the shootings and homicides: As of July 13, there were 258 shootings in the area in 2017 and 44 homicides, according to Tribune data. More than 1,900 people have been shot in Chicago so far this year.

The number of homicides in Chicago in the first half of 2017 was up one from 2016.

The city as a whole is losing residents, and Chicago last year was the only city of the country’s 10 largest to lose population. Residents who’ve packed up and left Chicago have cited a variety of reasons — high taxes, the state budget stalemate and the weather. …

But in a neighborhood where retaliatory shootings mean unending violence, many residents say safety is the biggest issue.

Just 8 miles west of the Loop, Austin was a suburban gem when it was annexed to the city of Chicago in 1899. The Lake Street train line was extended to the neighborhood to make it reachable from downtown, and the area prospered from the development of Columbus Park and several Victorian homes, some of which still stand today in areas like the 5900 block of West Race Avenue, where U.S. Rep. Danny Davis lives.

By the 1930s Austin was wealthy and populous, with more than 130,000 residents, according to census estimates.

This is not to say that Austin didn’t have gangs. Mobster Sam Giancana lived in Austin, and the Austin High School Gang, led by Jimmy McPartland and Bud Freeman, was an early non-New Orleans Dixieland jazz band that, as the name says, coalesced at Austin high school in 1922:

They were an early incarnation of the young white guy urge, now associated with the Ramones, to play faster.

The Austin community area, which comprises South Austin, North Austin, Galewood and The Island, was predominantly white until the 1970s, when middle-class black families moved in. They were eager to leave the South Side, where the African-American community for decades had been sequestered by segregated housing laws. Austin’s racial makeup flipped in an instant: White families, panicked by real estate agents’ insistence that their property values would plummet as more black families moved in, left quickly.

Here’s a denizen of the New Austin, photographed in 2013, so you can see it was pure racist panic that led white homeowners to fear for their property values.

Brokers spread flyers and rang doorbells, trying to get white families to sell to them so they could sell the homes to African-Americans for a higher price. An Austin broker told the Tribune in 1971, “We don’t care if (white families) run all the way to Hong Kong, as long as they run.” Others boasted of tricks to reap high profits from buildings they had purchased for a few thousand dollars.

Older residents living in the neighborhood recall how many white families left at night, hoping their departures would go unnoticed by black neighbors. …

By the 1980s, Austin was a majority black neighborhood. But discriminatory housing persisted in the form of predatory lending, a practice in which brokers directed homebuyers, often African-American, to subprime loans or other financial products with high fees or hidden expenses, said Maria Krysan, a sociology professor at the University of Illinois at Chicago who specializes in racial residential segregation.

These high cost loans were obviously unjustified because property values were shooting up in Austin, so there was no danger of foreclosure.

Oh, wait, that actually didn’t happen.

Obviously, unlike the current Black Flight, violence had nothing — nothing, I tell you! — to do with the White Flight between 1967 and 1980.

Anyway, a question I’ve never seen investigated is the extent to which African American influxes eventually lead to depopulation and desolation. We’ve seen it in East St. Louis, Gary, and Detroit, all of which are less than half as large today as at their peak. On the other hand, Atlanta’s fall was much less and now appears to be growing again.

This would seem like a really obvious question for academic social scientists to study: what happens to the trajectory of population chance when large numbers of blacks, whether in absolute or percentage terms, congregate in a municipality? All the data are available from the Census Bureau and Wikipedia.

 
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  1. Newark lost 38% of its population from 1930 to 2000. This was accelerated by the riots of 1967, which just had its 50th anniversary. Newark used to be Italian and Jewish, with its most famous natives being Frankie Valli, Chris Christie, Philip Roth, Moe Berg and Ed Koch. Irishman William Brennan also grew up in Newark.

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    • Replies: @JohnnyD
    @ScarletNumber,
    Philip Roth's novel, American Pastoral, spends a lot of time talking about the '67 riot in Newark and the city's collapse.
    , @whorefinder
    I remember looking for apartments in the NYC area during the Giuliani-Bloomberg glory years. The rents were getting so expensive that Newark developers thought they had a chance, and built a yuuuge apartment complex directly across from the Newark Penn Station (note--not the NYC Penn Station; the train/bus station in Newark is also a Penn Station, just called Newark Penn Station).

    Of course, Newark still had had all the bad blacks move to it over the decades, and Giuliani-Bloomberg had accelerated that. What's more, Newark refused to do its own broken windows polciing, despite NYC's success. COrey Booker as mayor made a public name for himself by living in crap housing in Newark as some kind of weird protest, but he rode the lefty line about "racism" holding blacks down and never did full-on broken windows.

    The result was that crime in Newark was rampant and the city was a mess---everyone who had any brains was not on the streets after sundown, or even on them during the day, or, heck, in Newark at all if they could avoid it. Ever see a movie depicting a bad NYC in the 1970s? That was (and is) ALL of Newark.

    The developers knew this, and so built the complex right across from the train station (which had a PATH train and a NJ transit train to NYC) and took it a step further by building a dedicated skyway from the complex to the train station that only residents could use, trying desperately to get people to move in. They even tried to get a supermarket installed in the building so yuppies wouldn't have to fear for their lives getting food after a long day in NYC at work.

    I was almost tempted, but they jacked up the rent too high---it was near-NYC levels. I think the security costs were that much.

    Of course, I didn't take the bait. I found a similarly-priced place in NYC which had two advantages: it was in NYC, and it was not in Newark.
    , @EriK

    Newark used to be Italian and Jewish, with its most famous natives being Frankie Valli, Chris Christie, Philip Roth, Moe Berg and Ed Koch.

     

    Ah Newark
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E-vGOttKBU
    , @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Newark lost 38% of its population from 1930 to 2000. This was accelerated by the riots of 1967, which just had its 50th anniversary. Newark used to be Italian and Jewish, with its most famous natives being Frankie Valli, Chris Christie, Philip Roth, Moe Berg and Ed Koch. Irishman William Brennan also grew up in Newark.
     
    I used to have to visit Newark in the early 2000s for work. There was a fairly stark contrast between the Ironbound area populated by Portuguese and Brazilians and the black area, which was more or less the rest of the City.
    , @Olorin
    I'd like to see somebody in the new dissident/samizdat media start collecting stories from those who lived in/through the race riots of 1965 and on.

    (In Philly the riots started while the ink on the "Civil Rights" Act was still wet.)

    (Actually, in Philly there were always riots by blacks.)

    (Actually........oh, never mind.)

    The deriding of white ethnic cleansing as "white flight" has meant an automatic demonization of this history. The only people I ever knew who looked at it as an oral history phenomenon were radical sociology types who wanted it as evidence of how horribly racist the whites in question were.

    Admittedly I haven't done a literature review on the topic. There may be more out there than I realize.

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  2. Was Bud Freeman the father of Russ who played piano with Chet Baker. Wikipedia is not always forthcoming with who begat whom.
    The old man was born in Chicago in 1906, Russ in 26, and then Bud split for New York in 27. Anyone know?

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    John Chilton ("Who's Who of Jazz," 1978) typically notes such relationships, but does not in his listing for Bud.

    Jazz enthusiasts seem few and far between here.
    , @Andrew Gilbert
    No relation. Fantastic players, both.
  3. Uncomfortable thought: If we define the current elite liberal consensus as the ultimate manifestation of the metropolitan ethos, there’s an argument to be made that unleashing blacks on the metropolises decades ago actually delayed the formation of that consensus. Imagine the United States as a Canada writ large. It’d be busing in the Mexicans instead of just turning a blind eye as they cross the border.

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    • Replies: @ben tillman

    Uncomfortable thought: If we define the current elite liberal consensus as the ultimate manifestation of the metropolitan ethos, there’s an argument to be made that unleashing blacks on the metropolises decades ago actually delayed the formation of that consensus.
     
    The formation of that consensus predated and caused the unleashing you mention.
  4. They were an early incarnation of the young white guy urge, now associated with the Ramones, to play faster.

    Also Mozart.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWYmUZTYE78

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    • Replies: @Deckin
    More like Lang Lang
    , @J1234


    They were an early incarnation of the young white guy urge, now associated with the Ramones, to play faster.
     

    Also Mozart.
     
    ...and bluegrass fiddlers:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1Z20cxwKDQ
  5. I guess midnight basketball didn’t work — maybe start an hour earlier ie try 11pm basketball.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Hahaaaa! It's that kind of outside-the-box thinking that we need in city government. Why dontcha fill out an on-line app eah? (Make sure you don't put "white guy" on there, or there's not a damn thing we can do for ya ... and make a few grammar mistakes... just a word to the wise.)
  6. Those Victorians mentioned in the article still go for some $300k, according to Zillow.com. That’s pretty dang good for the Midwest and spectacular for a black area. Furthermore, I can see on Google Streetview that those houses and their yards are pretty well maintained, with nary a chainlink fence in the front yard.

    BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis.

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    • Replies: @Flip
    I think Detroit is worse off than St. Louis. North St. Louis is bad but most of south St. Louis is still ok and Midtown and the West End are decent too.
    , @eD
    "BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis."

    St. Louis is an interesting case.

    I agree with the point that Steve makes here and in other posts that a big cause, and probably the main cause, of the decline of these cities is rioting and attacks on non -African American by their African-American population, followed by White flight (but why did the Whites give up so easily)? And there were big riots in St. Louis! But if you look at the population numbers they under-cut Steve's theory.

    I've lived in St. Louis. The metropolitan area is easily the most racially polarized place I've lived in, and probably the most racially polarized of the top 25 US metro areas (here is one list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas, St. Louis as #20, Baltimore, its main competition, is at #21).

    I checked the population trends for St. Louis on Wikipedia, which is a good, easily digestible source for population and demographic numbers, especially after the Census Bureau went and screwed up their website. The article notes that St. Louis lost 62.7% of its population since 1950, the highest number for any city with a population higher than 100,000.

    St. Louis reached peaked population in 1950, at 856,796. The population was 82% white then, and 18% black. St. Louis is one of those places where you are either White or Black, no other racial groupings. The 2010 census had the city's population at 319,294, and it is now estimated to be lower than that. It is now 43.9% White, 49.2% Black, with Hispanics at 3.5%, so immigration from Lain America doesn't seem to have played much of a part here.

    People in St. Louis like to point out that while the city itself has declined (and keep in mind the city boundaries were deliberately drawn to exclude places that would normally be considered to be part of "the city", the metropolitan area as a whole is going strong. With metropolitan area data there is some issue with how you define "metropolitan area", but Wikipedia reports a population of 1,681,281 in 1950, growing to 2,787,101, so fair enough. But keep in mind that the population of the United States as a whole more than doubled during this period (151 million to 307 million), so the 33% increase here is still under-performing. Wikipedia reports 76.9% of the metropolitan areas as White and 18% as black.

    Looking only at African-Americans, about 500,000 live in the metropolitan area, of which about 160,000 live in the city itself. The figure for the city itself is up slightly from the 154,000 Blacks who lived there in 1950. This doesn't under-cut anything Steve wrote, just more context. In percentage turns, the numbers for the proportion of the city in 1950, and the metro area in 2010 turn out to be exactly the same, at 18%.

    The population drop in the city of St. Louis began in the 1950s, with a 12.5% drop. There were bigger drops in the 1960s, at 17%, and 1970s, at 27%, then 12.5% or thereabouts each decade until the city's base population became small enough that you couldn't really get the big percentage drops. In terms of absolute numbers, the biggest drop, 159,000, was in the 1970s with drops of around 110,000 in the 1950s and 1960s.

    I wanted to check this against the 1960s riots in St. Louis, but couldn't find any information at all on Wikipedia, though they do discuss "suburbanization"and air pollution (people started fleeing the city when air pollution was cleared up). Well, its Wikipedia, so I reached for other information, and could only find this article from St. Louis Today: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/st-louis-area-largely-spared-by-civil-rights-era-rioting/article_b9a25f8d-efbf-5f4d-af88-173f543989fe.html. The article claims that there were no riots in St. Louis in the 1960s.

    Anyway, the point of this huge data drop is that the decline in St. Louis started in the 1950s, well before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, before any 1960s urban riots, the 1960s-70s crime wave, and may even have started before Brown vs. Board of Education (1954). It got worse in the 1970s, but was already well underway before you can bring in anything race related. Also, what is unique about St. Louis is not the population drop, which happened in all Northeastern and Midwestern cities, but there was no stabilization or recovery at all. Even the metro area doesn't look that hot when you compare it with national population trends. Note that St. Louis was not a one industry boomtown like Detroit.

    St. Louis is a big enough data point that I think it supports the racial stuff being important, but there being other things going on.
    , @Clyde
    I don't like chain link fence and have none but the people that have it my suburban subdivision have for their dogs. We are pretty crime free here and not gated but some like dogs as guards. There are minorities in my area and county so what can I say about paranoid libs w dogs who move in?
  7. @ScarletNumber
    Newark lost 38% of its population from 1930 to 2000. This was accelerated by the riots of 1967, which just had its 50th anniversary. Newark used to be Italian and Jewish, with its most famous natives being Frankie Valli, Chris Christie, Philip Roth, Moe Berg and Ed Koch. Irishman William Brennan also grew up in Newark.

    ,
    Philip Roth’s novel, American Pastoral, spends a lot of time talking about the ’67 riot in Newark and the city’s collapse.

    Read More
  8. The media never holds black people responsible for the conditions that they create. A good example of this phenomonen is this Politico article about the Cleveland Clinic and the surrounding black neighborhood.

    http://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/obamacare-cleveland-clinic-non-profit-hospital-taxes/

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Ed, Buffalo, like Cleveland, is a shadow of it's former industrial and Great Lakes shipping self, however the Medical Campus/Medical Corridor section of downtown is booming. The UB Medical School/Roswell Park Cancer Hospital/Buffalo General Hospital and Women and Children's Hospital has spurred a growth in lofts, condos and apartment buildings. The center of the complex is in Buffalo's East Side, the heart of the hood. If this was all built in the suburbs, you would hear that it was racist, build it in the hood and you are still racist. With this much capital investment there will be better infrastructure and public service, including police patrols. Actually a win for those who live in the neighborhood, but they will have to learn to share with whites, Asian and South Asian neighbors, who will demand order and lawfulness.
    , @Ivy
    Re Cleveland Clinic, there is also a theme about the neighborhood decline around some universities. See Yale and New Haven as one example.
  9. @ScarletNumber
    Newark lost 38% of its population from 1930 to 2000. This was accelerated by the riots of 1967, which just had its 50th anniversary. Newark used to be Italian and Jewish, with its most famous natives being Frankie Valli, Chris Christie, Philip Roth, Moe Berg and Ed Koch. Irishman William Brennan also grew up in Newark.

    I remember looking for apartments in the NYC area during the Giuliani-Bloomberg glory years. The rents were getting so expensive that Newark developers thought they had a chance, and built a yuuuge apartment complex directly across from the Newark Penn Station (note–not the NYC Penn Station; the train/bus station in Newark is also a Penn Station, just called Newark Penn Station).

    Of course, Newark still had had all the bad blacks move to it over the decades, and Giuliani-Bloomberg had accelerated that. What’s more, Newark refused to do its own broken windows polciing, despite NYC’s success. COrey Booker as mayor made a public name for himself by living in crap housing in Newark as some kind of weird protest, but he rode the lefty line about “racism” holding blacks down and never did full-on broken windows.

    The result was that crime in Newark was rampant and the city was a mess—everyone who had any brains was not on the streets after sundown, or even on them during the day, or, heck, in Newark at all if they could avoid it. Ever see a movie depicting a bad NYC in the 1970s? That was (and is) ALL of Newark.

    The developers knew this, and so built the complex right across from the train station (which had a PATH train and a NJ transit train to NYC) and took it a step further by building a dedicated skyway from the complex to the train station that only residents could use, trying desperately to get people to move in. They even tried to get a supermarket installed in the building so yuppies wouldn’t have to fear for their lives getting food after a long day in NYC at work.

    I was almost tempted, but they jacked up the rent too high—it was near-NYC levels. I think the security costs were that much.

    Of course, I didn’t take the bait. I found a similarly-priced place in NYC which had two advantages: it was in NYC, and it was not in Newark.

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  10. Atlanta works much better for blacks because it’s very low density living. Even the poorest blacks here still often live in single family homes in cul-de-sacs. Almost no public housing in the 20-country Metro Atlanta area and no tall tenement buildings.

    It saves blacks from themselves.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    There are plenty of run-down black suburbs and communities with no high-rises.

    It could be Atlanta's race relations evolved under realism.

    In contrast, idealism defined northern policy, and too much of it ran against reality.

    Also, there was greater white solidarity in the South, and less 'white guilt'. So, blacks had to learn to negotiate.

    In the North, where the hubris of idealism came to rule, blacks didn't negotiate. They just demanded.

    It's like Hong Kong and Mao's China.

    Hong Kong negotiated with British Imperialists. It was unfair, but the fact was Brits had much to teach the Chinese if they were willing to learn and be patient.
    In Mao's China, idealism ran riot and there were purity spiral after purity spiral. So CLM or Chinese Lives Matter led to Great Leap and Cultural Revolution that actually destroyed many more Chinese.

    The fact is blacks have much to learn from whites even if American History was unfair. Atlanta didn't forget this, but the North did.

    But as Confederate monuments come down and Southern Pride is also destroyed, maybe things will change.

    PS. One positive thing about Americanism is Idealistic Positivism. When used well, it can be activist and progressive. But used badly, it can lead to hubris, nastiness, hostility, self-righteousness, etc.

    There was more of this positivism in the North, and so it advanced faster than the more conservative patrician south. But when this idealism in the North turned neo-puritanical and stupid, it did more harm, especially with blacks and 60s radicals.

    It's like blacks from Latin American nations are less aggressive and less self-righteous. They are more accepting of things. In one way, this meant more passivity and lack of progress. But it also meant less hubris in the manner of Al Sharpton and other fools. Latin blacks learned to negotiate.

  11. @International Jew
    Those Victorians mentioned in the article still go for some $300k, according to Zillow.com. That's pretty dang good for the Midwest and spectacular for a black area. Furthermore, I can see on Google Streetview that those houses and their yards are pretty well maintained, with nary a chainlink fence in the front yard.

    BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis.

    I think Detroit is worse off than St. Louis. North St. Louis is bad but most of south St. Louis is still ok and Midtown and the West End are decent too.

    Read More
  12. While Austin is declining, the north side is booming with an enormous amount of construction going on and the white population increasing.

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  13. Atlanta has become the gay Mecca of the South, which explains the gentrification and increase in white population. It has the highest percent of gays of any city not on the West Coast. Gays from all over the South come here (and for some reason, Lesbians flock to neighboring Decatur).

    On the other hand, the blacks have to go somewhere, and a lot of them have gone to the formerly lily-white northern suburbs. Formerly solid white majority cities like Smyrna and Marietta are now close to flipping to majority black. If you go to the outer reaches of Cobb, Fulton, or Gwinnett counties, you might be fortunate enough to find some places that are around 10 percent black.

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  14. @International Jew
    Those Victorians mentioned in the article still go for some $300k, according to Zillow.com. That's pretty dang good for the Midwest and spectacular for a black area. Furthermore, I can see on Google Streetview that those houses and their yards are pretty well maintained, with nary a chainlink fence in the front yard.

    BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis.

    “BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis.”

    St. Louis is an interesting case.

    I agree with the point that Steve makes here and in other posts that a big cause, and probably the main cause, of the decline of these cities is rioting and attacks on non -African American by their African-American population, followed by White flight (but why did the Whites give up so easily)? And there were big riots in St. Louis! But if you look at the population numbers they under-cut Steve’s theory.

    I’ve lived in St. Louis. The metropolitan area is easily the most racially polarized place I’ve lived in, and probably the most racially polarized of the top 25 US metro areas (here is one list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas, St. Louis as #20, Baltimore, its main competition, is at #21).

    I checked the population trends for St. Louis on Wikipedia, which is a good, easily digestible source for population and demographic numbers, especially after the Census Bureau went and screwed up their website. The article notes that St. Louis lost 62.7% of its population since 1950, the highest number for any city with a population higher than 100,000.

    St. Louis reached peaked population in 1950, at 856,796. The population was 82% white then, and 18% black. St. Louis is one of those places where you are either White or Black, no other racial groupings. The 2010 census had the city’s population at 319,294, and it is now estimated to be lower than that. It is now 43.9% White, 49.2% Black, with Hispanics at 3.5%, so immigration from Lain America doesn’t seem to have played much of a part here.

    People in St. Louis like to point out that while the city itself has declined (and keep in mind the city boundaries were deliberately drawn to exclude places that would normally be considered to be part of “the city”, the metropolitan area as a whole is going strong. With metropolitan area data there is some issue with how you define “metropolitan area”, but Wikipedia reports a population of 1,681,281 in 1950, growing to 2,787,101, so fair enough. But keep in mind that the population of the United States as a whole more than doubled during this period (151 million to 307 million), so the 33% increase here is still under-performing. Wikipedia reports 76.9% of the metropolitan areas as White and 18% as black.

    Looking only at African-Americans, about 500,000 live in the metropolitan area, of which about 160,000 live in the city itself. The figure for the city itself is up slightly from the 154,000 Blacks who lived there in 1950. This doesn’t under-cut anything Steve wrote, just more context. In percentage turns, the numbers for the proportion of the city in 1950, and the metro area in 2010 turn out to be exactly the same, at 18%.

    The population drop in the city of St. Louis began in the 1950s, with a 12.5% drop. There were bigger drops in the 1960s, at 17%, and 1970s, at 27%, then 12.5% or thereabouts each decade until the city’s base population became small enough that you couldn’t really get the big percentage drops. In terms of absolute numbers, the biggest drop, 159,000, was in the 1970s with drops of around 110,000 in the 1950s and 1960s.

    I wanted to check this against the 1960s riots in St. Louis, but couldn’t find any information at all on Wikipedia, though they do discuss “suburbanization”and air pollution (people started fleeing the city when air pollution was cleared up). Well, its Wikipedia, so I reached for other information, and could only find this article from St. Louis Today: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/st-louis-area-largely-spared-by-civil-rights-era-rioting/article_b9a25f8d-efbf-5f4d-af88-173f543989fe.html. The article claims that there were no riots in St. Louis in the 1960s.

    Anyway, the point of this huge data drop is that the decline in St. Louis started in the 1950s, well before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, before any 1960s urban riots, the 1960s-70s crime wave, and may even have started before Brown vs. Board of Education (1954). It got worse in the 1970s, but was already well underway before you can bring in anything race related. Also, what is unique about St. Louis is not the population drop, which happened in all Northeastern and Midwestern cities, but there was no stabilization or recovery at all. Even the metro area doesn’t look that hot when you compare it with national population trends. Note that St. Louis was not a one industry boomtown like Detroit.

    St. Louis is a big enough data point that I think it supports the racial stuff being important, but there being other things going on.

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    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    All the working-class whites packed up and moved to California. My friend's families did (1969) and I lived near St. Louis at the time. Steve's family did (I think). That's where the good jobs were, plus the nice weather and the beach etc.
    , @JerryC
    As you note yourself, the St Louis metro area has seen pretty much no post-1965 immigration. That alone should come pretty close to explaining the slow population growth relative to the national average.
    , @songbird
    There is an older pattern as well. White Catholic immigrants displacing the WASP groups. First from neighborhoods, then from the city as a whole, then from the close suburbs which were seen as more desirable.

    I think part of the movement is just a natural pull to the suburbs, as people gain in wealth. First the transit system, then cars had a lot to do with it. Cars and highways would probably explain the 1950s pretty well. Real estate was much cheaper as well. My grandfather sold his house and moved to one about 3 miles further away with a yard, and bought a cottage near the beach and one by the mountains all in the 1950s and he was squarely middle class, not rich. If there was any rise in crime at that time (I've heard someone who grew up there suggest it) It had to do with Italian youths or the Irish mob..

    None of this is to minimize the troubles caused by blacks in later years.

    I was once trying to find an event that took place in 1909 in the newspapers, but I did not know the date, so I had to browse. I was struck by the proportion of criminal stories that involved blacks. Sometimes, they were just oddball, like black men hearing a rumor that there was a buried treasure in someone's basement and sneaking in at night with a lantern to dig it up. This isn't scientific, but back then, the black pop was near about 3%.
    , @anonymous-antimarxist
    St Louis, as Paul Kersey over a SBPDL constantly reminds folks, was home to the infamous Shelley SCOTUS decision that struck down restrictive covenants in the late 1940s. That is probably what started White flight there long before the civil rights movement got rolling. Smart whites saw the writing on the wall.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelley_v._Kraemer

    As Steve is fond of reminding folks. The Black Plaque has not reach past Austin into Oak Park because the nice white folks there have come up with their own Wink Wink version of the old restrictive covenant, the one nice middle class black family per block strategy.

    A good question is what percentage of Oak Park is Jewish, observant or atheist and what role has that played in giving Oak Park its special status in the eyes of the courts???

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Oak+Park+illinois+jewish+population&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
    , @anon
    Why did housing bypass Northeastern and Upper Midwest Central Cities after WW 2? Consider the following:

    1. There was a housing boom in the 1920's, which had a number of similarities to the early 2000's boom. There were a lot of large, expensive houses built, none of which had modern wiring or heating and were impractical for middle income single families. Post WW 2, people didn't want to live in old houses and the notion of a 'gut rehab' was considered silly.

    2. This was followed by a decade of very modest new home construction during the 1930's. It was the depression.

    3. This was followed by WW 2/1940's when there was no new construction due to the transformation of the economy to War production. And there was an acute housing shortage. 1950's may have been peak 'Central City' because thats all that was available. The only fact that is less obvious is that it took at least a full decade post WW 2 get the US fully running on what is remembered as the post war boom. For example, the first skyscraper built in Chicago since the final 20's boom buildings (finished in the early 30's) was the Prudential Building https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Prudential_Plaza. in 1955.

    4. Housing Projects? A 'well meaning' idea gone bad.

    5. Urban problems. Cities had political machines, drove up costs, were hard or impossible to reform, and could be avoided by simply moving to a suburb. Once people had cars, there was no compelling reason to put up with costs and issues. Not to mention that older, city housing wasn't particularly car friendly. Among other things, central business districts became inconvenient for shopping and entertainment shifted toward television, etc.

    6. Centralization of banking and finance. Older, commercial cities -- Cincinnati, St. Louis, Philadelphia, and especially Baltimore as well as cities with ports tended to be regional financial centers. By the 1990's the long term move toward mergers, acquisitions, and scale had put local financial institutions out of Business. As an example, Nationsbank ... soon to become Bank of America, bought up both of Baltimore's large, local banks (Maryland National and Equitable) and the City's most prominent Investment Bank, Alex Brown, was bought out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex._Brown_%26_Sons. Roughly the same thing occurred with Insurance. Even Chicago faced something similar with banking and insurance, although it is less obvious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_One_Corporation

    7. The rustbelt. It's easy to see in retrospect. But US monetary policy (strong dollar) and favored the businesses on the coasts to the detriment of center. The US Auto industry was gutted with the Yen @ 300-150 per $US. US capital intensive industry paid market rates for capital while Asian Tigers used predatory, Neo mercantilistic industrial policies (subsidized interest rates) to target the US market. It is still going on -- and one reason is that the US doesn't have an export driven economy. Smaller countries needed exports to take advantage of economies of scale, but the US had a sufficiently large domestic market. The result being that importers (including or especially consumers) weren't inclined to pay up to support an export oriented economy.

    Why did New York turn around? Don't underestimate the advantages of financial concentration and centralization of banking and finance and the fact that NY is the Worlds financial center. Enough money and all sorts of things become easy.

    Two points: The reason cities didn't decline more quickly was because of the relative lack of development between 1930 and 1955. More interesting than the decline of St Louis is the extent to which Chicago is still relatively wealthy. If you look at Detroit, the city is relatively small and was essentially abandon by the late 1960's. Same with Newark, Gary Indiana, East St Louis and many others. The real question is why that didn't happen to Chicago, for example. An answer is that the South Side and Austin are still part of the City and get municipal services. Without that, they would have met their Darwinian death with East St Louis and Gary.

    Another is that the largest employers in central cities are government services. But outside of that, the largest businesses are medical. US healthcare centers are dug into central cities like Baltimore. Hopkins is the largest employer in Baltimore and has their own police force/security. Health care has risen from under 10% of GDP to 17% or so, making it the most successful business in the US over the post war period.

    Finally -- restricting European immigration had its points. But the need for labor beginning with putting the US on a war footing in the late 1930's and the lack of European migrants led to the massive migration of Southern blacks to Northern US Cities.

    , @Flip
    I grew up in St. Louis, and they didn't have riots like some other cities.
    , @Ivy
    So it wasn't the exit of the St. Louis Browns in '53 what triggered it?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_St._Louis_Browns

    , @benjaminl
    The Countenance blog has a lot of very granular, depressing, coverage of St. Louis, but I don't know if he ever posts about historical analysis.

    Interesting to compare St. Louis (peak pop 1950) to New Orleans (peak pop 1960). From 1860-1880 both STL and NOLA were in the top ten U.S. cities by population.

    Some argue that governance can make a big difference, i.e. New Orleans vs. Houston
    https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/new-orleans-an-autopsy/
    https://www.city-journal.org/html/houston%E2%80%99s-noble-experiment-12929.html

    Without knowing anything really, I wonder if the particular ethnic combination in St. Louis culture affected its governance: Yankees (the Eliots), Germans (the Busches and Prufocks), Southern, black, etc.

    https://www.stlmag.com/arts/literary/meet-the-real-prufrock-behind-t-s-eliot%E2%80%99s-famous-poem/
    , @Kylie
    "...the decline in St. Louis started in the 1950s, well before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, before any 1960s urban riots, the 1960s-70s crime wave, and may even have started before Brown vs. Board of Education (1954). It got worse in the 1970s, but was already well underway before you can bring in anything race related."

    Yes and no. The decline started partly due to lack of housing in the city. Those who could move did so.

    But it was also race-related, not in overt ways like race riots but in subtler ways, like the judgment striking down restrictive covenants.

    This sheds some light on it.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruitt–Igoe

    N.B. I was born and raised in St. Louis County (Kirkwood, Crestwood and Manchester). With my church youth group, I helped clean up some areas of the Cochran and Vaughan housing projects in the city in the early 70's. We were told not to walk the streets by ourselves even in broad daylight. I look back and wonder what the hell our church leaders were thinking. We weren't even there to bear witness to our faith. We were cleaning up communal areas that the able-bodied black residents couldn't be bothered to clean. Instead they stood around and critiqued our efforts.
    , @ben tillman

    I agree with the point that Steve makes here and in other posts that a big cause, and probably the main cause, of the decline of these cities is rioting and attacks on non -African American by their African-American population, followed by White flight (but why did the Whites give up so easily)?
     
    Why did they give up so easily? Because the central government threatened to kill them if they didn't.
    , @Jack Hanson
    "Why did the whites give up so easily?"

    Last I checked Eisenhower sent in the 101st Airborne to enforce martial fiat on segregation so maybe that's why?
  15. @ScarletNumber
    Newark lost 38% of its population from 1930 to 2000. This was accelerated by the riots of 1967, which just had its 50th anniversary. Newark used to be Italian and Jewish, with its most famous natives being Frankie Valli, Chris Christie, Philip Roth, Moe Berg and Ed Koch. Irishman William Brennan also grew up in Newark.

    Newark used to be Italian and Jewish, with its most famous natives being Frankie Valli, Chris Christie, Philip Roth, Moe Berg and Ed Koch.

    Ah Newark

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    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    It is worth pointing out that the kid who played AJ was cast solely for his physical resemblance to James Gandolfini. He hit his growth spurt season 2 but by then it was too late and they kept him.

    He hasn't worked since. Hell, his sister has barely worked since. She is married to Lenny Dykstra's son.
  16. Just 8 miles west of the Loop, Austin was a suburban gem when it was annexed to the city of Chicago in 1899.

    Austin was annexed against the will of the residents who lived in the area. Austin was part of Cicero Township. From Wikipedia: “The heavily populated Austin area dominated town politics, but did not constitute a majority of voters. The Austin controlled township government allowed the Lake Street Elevated to extend into Oak Park. Outraged, the other residents of Cicero Township voted to allow Chicago to annex the Austin area in an 1899 referendum. The residents of Austin voted against the referendum.” BTW, parts of Austin, such as Galewood and the Island are still white neighborhoods and are in relatively good shape.

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    • Replies: @Hodag
    Galewood is not horrible but across Harlem is Elmwood Park,whose police do not suffer outsiders. I would never travel into The Island at night. Miss The Depot diner desperately.
  17. In other news from Chicago LBGTKKK

    Chicago Dyke March uses Neo-Nazi slur for Jews

    March organizers who expelled Jews use notorious KKK anti-Semitic slur, say they take joy in suffering of Zionists.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/232534

    E Micheal Jones well researched anti-Catholic conspiracy theory:
    The Slaughter of Cities: Urban Renewal as Ethnic Cleansing

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    • Replies: @Je Suis Charlie Martel
    Jones' book is great. Very coherent narrative of what happened using primary sources -what the elite said they intended to do with white (Catholic) ethnics in their own words and then what they did...
    Amazing book
  18. Just 8 miles west of the Loop, Austin was a suburban gem when it was annexed to the city of Chicago in 1899.

    Austin was annexed against the will of the residents who lived in the area. Austin was part of Cicero Township. From Wikipedia: “The heavily populated Austin area dominated town politics, but did not constitute a majority of voters. The Austin controlled township government allowed the Lake Street Elevated to extend into Oak Park. Outraged, the other residents of Cicero Township voted to allow Chicago to annex the Austin area in an 1899 referendum. The residents of Austin voted against the referendum.” BTW, parts of Austin, such as Galewood and the Island are still white neighborhoods and are in relatively good shape. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin,_Chicago

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  19. @eD
    "BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis."

    St. Louis is an interesting case.

    I agree with the point that Steve makes here and in other posts that a big cause, and probably the main cause, of the decline of these cities is rioting and attacks on non -African American by their African-American population, followed by White flight (but why did the Whites give up so easily)? And there were big riots in St. Louis! But if you look at the population numbers they under-cut Steve's theory.

    I've lived in St. Louis. The metropolitan area is easily the most racially polarized place I've lived in, and probably the most racially polarized of the top 25 US metro areas (here is one list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas, St. Louis as #20, Baltimore, its main competition, is at #21).

    I checked the population trends for St. Louis on Wikipedia, which is a good, easily digestible source for population and demographic numbers, especially after the Census Bureau went and screwed up their website. The article notes that St. Louis lost 62.7% of its population since 1950, the highest number for any city with a population higher than 100,000.

    St. Louis reached peaked population in 1950, at 856,796. The population was 82% white then, and 18% black. St. Louis is one of those places where you are either White or Black, no other racial groupings. The 2010 census had the city's population at 319,294, and it is now estimated to be lower than that. It is now 43.9% White, 49.2% Black, with Hispanics at 3.5%, so immigration from Lain America doesn't seem to have played much of a part here.

    People in St. Louis like to point out that while the city itself has declined (and keep in mind the city boundaries were deliberately drawn to exclude places that would normally be considered to be part of "the city", the metropolitan area as a whole is going strong. With metropolitan area data there is some issue with how you define "metropolitan area", but Wikipedia reports a population of 1,681,281 in 1950, growing to 2,787,101, so fair enough. But keep in mind that the population of the United States as a whole more than doubled during this period (151 million to 307 million), so the 33% increase here is still under-performing. Wikipedia reports 76.9% of the metropolitan areas as White and 18% as black.

    Looking only at African-Americans, about 500,000 live in the metropolitan area, of which about 160,000 live in the city itself. The figure for the city itself is up slightly from the 154,000 Blacks who lived there in 1950. This doesn't under-cut anything Steve wrote, just more context. In percentage turns, the numbers for the proportion of the city in 1950, and the metro area in 2010 turn out to be exactly the same, at 18%.

    The population drop in the city of St. Louis began in the 1950s, with a 12.5% drop. There were bigger drops in the 1960s, at 17%, and 1970s, at 27%, then 12.5% or thereabouts each decade until the city's base population became small enough that you couldn't really get the big percentage drops. In terms of absolute numbers, the biggest drop, 159,000, was in the 1970s with drops of around 110,000 in the 1950s and 1960s.

    I wanted to check this against the 1960s riots in St. Louis, but couldn't find any information at all on Wikipedia, though they do discuss "suburbanization"and air pollution (people started fleeing the city when air pollution was cleared up). Well, its Wikipedia, so I reached for other information, and could only find this article from St. Louis Today: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/st-louis-area-largely-spared-by-civil-rights-era-rioting/article_b9a25f8d-efbf-5f4d-af88-173f543989fe.html. The article claims that there were no riots in St. Louis in the 1960s.

    Anyway, the point of this huge data drop is that the decline in St. Louis started in the 1950s, well before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, before any 1960s urban riots, the 1960s-70s crime wave, and may even have started before Brown vs. Board of Education (1954). It got worse in the 1970s, but was already well underway before you can bring in anything race related. Also, what is unique about St. Louis is not the population drop, which happened in all Northeastern and Midwestern cities, but there was no stabilization or recovery at all. Even the metro area doesn't look that hot when you compare it with national population trends. Note that St. Louis was not a one industry boomtown like Detroit.

    St. Louis is a big enough data point that I think it supports the racial stuff being important, but there being other things going on.

    All the working-class whites packed up and moved to California. My friend’s families did (1969) and I lived near St. Louis at the time. Steve’s family did (I think). That’s where the good jobs were, plus the nice weather and the beach etc.

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  20. From the novelty of having a few Blacks such as Josephine Baker — she was probably a mulatto of some sort — in Paris, France, to having ten percent or more is the key. At ten percent population Whites will take flight to avoid the concentrated population of Blacks. White parents, who have above average IQs, will not want their kids in schools that are more than ten percent Black. No Blacks would be just fine, too.

    Wealthy Blacks don’t want their kids going to school with regular Blacks either. An interesting thing to note is that regular or poor Whites oftentimes score higher on IQ tests than the kids of wealthy Blacks. How do explain that except by looking at innate intelligence?

    Once again I will point out that baby boomer globalizer Hillary Clinton chose to move to mostly White Chappaqua, New York. Obama, the malignant mulatto, chose to move to a mostly White part of Washington DC. I would imagine that the leading politician whores and donor shysters in the Democrat Party all live in mostly White areas.

    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE BLACK PARTY

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  21. I think one of the things that tips over a neighborhood when large numbers of black residents move in is that even if the initial arrivals are middle or working class people, their loser relatives follow. The losers cause problems but due to the family links there is more of a tendency to look the other way or not involve the authorities in the way one would if they were dealing with strangers.

    I lived for some years in a majority black big city neighborhood and this is basically how it worked there – lots of family ties in the area, some portion of the population that were conscientious working people BUT unwilling to do much of anything about their relations nearby who would get high, steal, fight etc. There were also a fair number of homes that had been purchased in the 60s or 70s by the first families to arrive and that had been paid off and stayed in the family, which were then offered up to the most useless members of the family as low cost housing. Over time about half of these homes were sold when the owners realized they would have a big financial windfall, but the other half stayed in family hands with the owners determined not to sell them to whites who were gentrifying the area.

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    • Replies: @whorefinder
    That, and the fact that "good" blacks have affirmative action jobs for which they are unqualified, and therefore are buying houses in places that they shouldn't be able to, because they haven't the IQ or social skills to have them.

    This results in children of such families exhibiting the same low-class behavior of ghetto blacks because they are literally on the same level. So even if the "urban" relatives don't follow suit, you can rest assured the kids of such "professionals" will be violent and dumb like most inner-city blacks. And the pop culture encouraging "keeping it real" behavior isn't helping.

    For example, Trayvon Martin was on his suspension from school for weed dealing and breaking into lockers when he attacked Zimmerman. He attacked Zimmerman when visiting his father, who had an affirmative action job that gave him the ability to get a place in a safe non-black neighborhood. The kind of place that had a neighborhood watch and neighbors who cared about safety. But Trayvon, despite his father's good non-ghetto job, was still going around casing houses to rob and causing mischief like a ghetto thug---and getting woefully upset at being upbraided for such criminal behavior.

    You can dress a monkey in a suit, but he's still going to have monkey babies, and they will still fling poo.

    But, on the plus side, at least the high school will get a fast running back for four years. Assuming he can avoid getting expelled.

  22. Braddock, PA, which is the city with THAT mayor, declined from 20,879 in 1920 to 2,118 in 2016, according to Wikipedia. Admittedly though, much of that population loss is due to deindustrialization, and it started in the first half of the twentieth century, before any significant black attacks.

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  23. OK, I’ve read the post, but it’s just the title that’s confusing me. What’s the timeline here?

    I got that the white people fled in the 1970′s due to hatred of the black people due to skin color. The black people came up in the mid-1800′s through the 1940′s and stayed through the present.

    When did the guns get there, and when did they leave? It sounds to me, from all of my reading, that guns travel willingly and they bring gun violence with them. Of course they are not racist, so they wouldn’t have fled during the race riots, plus, without scopes, how do they even know about skin color? There were laws passed in Chicago, against the US Constitution, but for the Chilluns, even as early as the 1960′s.

    Did the guns not obey the laws of the 1960′s and flee voluntarily? I can’t see them waiting until they had to leave at gunpoint. There were more laws passed that discriminated against even more of the guns through the 1970′s and 1980′s. I would think that the guns would have fled by the end of that period. Why did the gun violence stay behind this time? I think Mayor Emmanuel should consider the time line and the present state:

    a) whites are gone
    b) guns are gone
    c) blacks are there
    d) gun violence is there

    He should push for a law against the last two items, and then Chicago will be all cleaned up.

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  24. @Arclight
    I think one of the things that tips over a neighborhood when large numbers of black residents move in is that even if the initial arrivals are middle or working class people, their loser relatives follow. The losers cause problems but due to the family links there is more of a tendency to look the other way or not involve the authorities in the way one would if they were dealing with strangers.

    I lived for some years in a majority black big city neighborhood and this is basically how it worked there - lots of family ties in the area, some portion of the population that were conscientious working people BUT unwilling to do much of anything about their relations nearby who would get high, steal, fight etc. There were also a fair number of homes that had been purchased in the 60s or 70s by the first families to arrive and that had been paid off and stayed in the family, which were then offered up to the most useless members of the family as low cost housing. Over time about half of these homes were sold when the owners realized they would have a big financial windfall, but the other half stayed in family hands with the owners determined not to sell them to whites who were gentrifying the area.

    That, and the fact that “good” blacks have affirmative action jobs for which they are unqualified, and therefore are buying houses in places that they shouldn’t be able to, because they haven’t the IQ or social skills to have them.

    This results in children of such families exhibiting the same low-class behavior of ghetto blacks because they are literally on the same level. So even if the “urban” relatives don’t follow suit, you can rest assured the kids of such “professionals” will be violent and dumb like most inner-city blacks. And the pop culture encouraging “keeping it real” behavior isn’t helping.

    For example, Trayvon Martin was on his suspension from school for weed dealing and breaking into lockers when he attacked Zimmerman. He attacked Zimmerman when visiting his father, who had an affirmative action job that gave him the ability to get a place in a safe non-black neighborhood. The kind of place that had a neighborhood watch and neighbors who cared about safety. But Trayvon, despite his father’s good non-ghetto job, was still going around casing houses to rob and causing mischief like a ghetto thug—and getting woefully upset at being upbraided for such criminal behavior.

    You can dress a monkey in a suit, but he’s still going to have monkey babies, and they will still fling poo.

    But, on the plus side, at least the high school will get a fast running back for four years. Assuming he can avoid getting expelled.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    He attacked Zimmerman when visiting his father, who had an affirmative action job

    His father was a long-haul truck driver. His mother was a mid-level civil servant with one of the school districts in greater Miami. If anyone benefited from workplace mulligans, it was likely his mother. From 1999 to 2011, TM's primary caretaker was his step-mother, Alicia Stanley. Also in the mix was his father (who was out of town several days a week), his paternal uncle (retired military), and his paternal uncle's wife. His mother had him about 15% of the time.

    Tracy Martin had a messy domestic history (heading into his 3d marriage), but there was no suggestion at the time that there was anything amiss about his vocational life. The townhouse in question was owned by Brandi Green, his fiance. Not aware there was any discussion of where she worked, much less granular details of her work life.
  25. @eD
    "BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis."

    St. Louis is an interesting case.

    I agree with the point that Steve makes here and in other posts that a big cause, and probably the main cause, of the decline of these cities is rioting and attacks on non -African American by their African-American population, followed by White flight (but why did the Whites give up so easily)? And there were big riots in St. Louis! But if you look at the population numbers they under-cut Steve's theory.

    I've lived in St. Louis. The metropolitan area is easily the most racially polarized place I've lived in, and probably the most racially polarized of the top 25 US metro areas (here is one list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas, St. Louis as #20, Baltimore, its main competition, is at #21).

    I checked the population trends for St. Louis on Wikipedia, which is a good, easily digestible source for population and demographic numbers, especially after the Census Bureau went and screwed up their website. The article notes that St. Louis lost 62.7% of its population since 1950, the highest number for any city with a population higher than 100,000.

    St. Louis reached peaked population in 1950, at 856,796. The population was 82% white then, and 18% black. St. Louis is one of those places where you are either White or Black, no other racial groupings. The 2010 census had the city's population at 319,294, and it is now estimated to be lower than that. It is now 43.9% White, 49.2% Black, with Hispanics at 3.5%, so immigration from Lain America doesn't seem to have played much of a part here.

    People in St. Louis like to point out that while the city itself has declined (and keep in mind the city boundaries were deliberately drawn to exclude places that would normally be considered to be part of "the city", the metropolitan area as a whole is going strong. With metropolitan area data there is some issue with how you define "metropolitan area", but Wikipedia reports a population of 1,681,281 in 1950, growing to 2,787,101, so fair enough. But keep in mind that the population of the United States as a whole more than doubled during this period (151 million to 307 million), so the 33% increase here is still under-performing. Wikipedia reports 76.9% of the metropolitan areas as White and 18% as black.

    Looking only at African-Americans, about 500,000 live in the metropolitan area, of which about 160,000 live in the city itself. The figure for the city itself is up slightly from the 154,000 Blacks who lived there in 1950. This doesn't under-cut anything Steve wrote, just more context. In percentage turns, the numbers for the proportion of the city in 1950, and the metro area in 2010 turn out to be exactly the same, at 18%.

    The population drop in the city of St. Louis began in the 1950s, with a 12.5% drop. There were bigger drops in the 1960s, at 17%, and 1970s, at 27%, then 12.5% or thereabouts each decade until the city's base population became small enough that you couldn't really get the big percentage drops. In terms of absolute numbers, the biggest drop, 159,000, was in the 1970s with drops of around 110,000 in the 1950s and 1960s.

    I wanted to check this against the 1960s riots in St. Louis, but couldn't find any information at all on Wikipedia, though they do discuss "suburbanization"and air pollution (people started fleeing the city when air pollution was cleared up). Well, its Wikipedia, so I reached for other information, and could only find this article from St. Louis Today: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/st-louis-area-largely-spared-by-civil-rights-era-rioting/article_b9a25f8d-efbf-5f4d-af88-173f543989fe.html. The article claims that there were no riots in St. Louis in the 1960s.

    Anyway, the point of this huge data drop is that the decline in St. Louis started in the 1950s, well before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, before any 1960s urban riots, the 1960s-70s crime wave, and may even have started before Brown vs. Board of Education (1954). It got worse in the 1970s, but was already well underway before you can bring in anything race related. Also, what is unique about St. Louis is not the population drop, which happened in all Northeastern and Midwestern cities, but there was no stabilization or recovery at all. Even the metro area doesn't look that hot when you compare it with national population trends. Note that St. Louis was not a one industry boomtown like Detroit.

    St. Louis is a big enough data point that I think it supports the racial stuff being important, but there being other things going on.

    As you note yourself, the St Louis metro area has seen pretty much no post-1965 immigration. That alone should come pretty close to explaining the slow population growth relative to the national average.

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    I think St Louis has the largest number of Bosniaks in America. But they are classified as white European so you might not pick them out in your analysis.
  26. @Ed
    The media never holds black people responsible for the conditions that they create. A good example of this phenomonen is this Politico article about the Cleveland Clinic and the surrounding black neighborhood.


    http://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/obamacare-cleveland-clinic-non-profit-hospital-taxes/

    Ed, Buffalo, like Cleveland, is a shadow of it’s former industrial and Great Lakes shipping self, however the Medical Campus/Medical Corridor section of downtown is booming. The UB Medical School/Roswell Park Cancer Hospital/Buffalo General Hospital and Women and Children’s Hospital has spurred a growth in lofts, condos and apartment buildings. The center of the complex is in Buffalo’s East Side, the heart of the hood. If this was all built in the suburbs, you would hear that it was racist, build it in the hood and you are still racist. With this much capital investment there will be better infrastructure and public service, including police patrols. Actually a win for those who live in the neighborhood, but they will have to learn to share with whites, Asian and South Asian neighbors, who will demand order and lawfulness.

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    • Replies: @Autochthon

    ...Asian and South Asian neighbors, who will demand order and lawfulness.
     
    Dear sweet Lord. How about:

    Asian and South Asian neighbors, who will demand order southern order and lawfulness and southern lawlessness.
     
    I call it consistent, extraneous consistency.
  27. Look up the crime novels of Chicagoan Jack Clark. They always have references to Austin pre MLKing riots. Clark grew up in Austin, and was displaced in the 70s. I think you’d enjoy them.

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  28. An old rowhouse in a spiffied-up, gentrified neighborhood has how many people living in it? Two, three, maybe four? How many lived in it 1940? Three times as many? The option of spreading out to the suburbs was going to reduce city populations from their mid-century peaks even without any racial issues coming into play.

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  29. Oh, that article hits pretty close to home, doesn’t it, for you Steve? I can’t remember if it’s your or your wife’s parents that moved out of that neighborhood (and the other side from Oak Park (or something like that?)).

    Statistics are interesting, but I wonder it the writer spoke to anyone who had personal knowledge for the “why?”, but it wouldn’t be a white person anyway. You’d have been the best source he could have gotten for the truth, but these people don’t want the truth. He could have at least linked to a few of your articles on Chicago, if he had a shred of integrity.

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  30. @eD
    "BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis."

    St. Louis is an interesting case.

    I agree with the point that Steve makes here and in other posts that a big cause, and probably the main cause, of the decline of these cities is rioting and attacks on non -African American by their African-American population, followed by White flight (but why did the Whites give up so easily)? And there were big riots in St. Louis! But if you look at the population numbers they under-cut Steve's theory.

    I've lived in St. Louis. The metropolitan area is easily the most racially polarized place I've lived in, and probably the most racially polarized of the top 25 US metro areas (here is one list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas, St. Louis as #20, Baltimore, its main competition, is at #21).

    I checked the population trends for St. Louis on Wikipedia, which is a good, easily digestible source for population and demographic numbers, especially after the Census Bureau went and screwed up their website. The article notes that St. Louis lost 62.7% of its population since 1950, the highest number for any city with a population higher than 100,000.

    St. Louis reached peaked population in 1950, at 856,796. The population was 82% white then, and 18% black. St. Louis is one of those places where you are either White or Black, no other racial groupings. The 2010 census had the city's population at 319,294, and it is now estimated to be lower than that. It is now 43.9% White, 49.2% Black, with Hispanics at 3.5%, so immigration from Lain America doesn't seem to have played much of a part here.

    People in St. Louis like to point out that while the city itself has declined (and keep in mind the city boundaries were deliberately drawn to exclude places that would normally be considered to be part of "the city", the metropolitan area as a whole is going strong. With metropolitan area data there is some issue with how you define "metropolitan area", but Wikipedia reports a population of 1,681,281 in 1950, growing to 2,787,101, so fair enough. But keep in mind that the population of the United States as a whole more than doubled during this period (151 million to 307 million), so the 33% increase here is still under-performing. Wikipedia reports 76.9% of the metropolitan areas as White and 18% as black.

    Looking only at African-Americans, about 500,000 live in the metropolitan area, of which about 160,000 live in the city itself. The figure for the city itself is up slightly from the 154,000 Blacks who lived there in 1950. This doesn't under-cut anything Steve wrote, just more context. In percentage turns, the numbers for the proportion of the city in 1950, and the metro area in 2010 turn out to be exactly the same, at 18%.

    The population drop in the city of St. Louis began in the 1950s, with a 12.5% drop. There were bigger drops in the 1960s, at 17%, and 1970s, at 27%, then 12.5% or thereabouts each decade until the city's base population became small enough that you couldn't really get the big percentage drops. In terms of absolute numbers, the biggest drop, 159,000, was in the 1970s with drops of around 110,000 in the 1950s and 1960s.

    I wanted to check this against the 1960s riots in St. Louis, but couldn't find any information at all on Wikipedia, though they do discuss "suburbanization"and air pollution (people started fleeing the city when air pollution was cleared up). Well, its Wikipedia, so I reached for other information, and could only find this article from St. Louis Today: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/st-louis-area-largely-spared-by-civil-rights-era-rioting/article_b9a25f8d-efbf-5f4d-af88-173f543989fe.html. The article claims that there were no riots in St. Louis in the 1960s.

    Anyway, the point of this huge data drop is that the decline in St. Louis started in the 1950s, well before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, before any 1960s urban riots, the 1960s-70s crime wave, and may even have started before Brown vs. Board of Education (1954). It got worse in the 1970s, but was already well underway before you can bring in anything race related. Also, what is unique about St. Louis is not the population drop, which happened in all Northeastern and Midwestern cities, but there was no stabilization or recovery at all. Even the metro area doesn't look that hot when you compare it with national population trends. Note that St. Louis was not a one industry boomtown like Detroit.

    St. Louis is a big enough data point that I think it supports the racial stuff being important, but there being other things going on.

    There is an older pattern as well. White Catholic immigrants displacing the WASP groups. First from neighborhoods, then from the city as a whole, then from the close suburbs which were seen as more desirable.

    I think part of the movement is just a natural pull to the suburbs, as people gain in wealth. First the transit system, then cars had a lot to do with it. Cars and highways would probably explain the 1950s pretty well. Real estate was much cheaper as well. My grandfather sold his house and moved to one about 3 miles further away with a yard, and bought a cottage near the beach and one by the mountains all in the 1950s and he was squarely middle class, not rich. If there was any rise in crime at that time (I’ve heard someone who grew up there suggest it) It had to do with Italian youths or the Irish mob..

    None of this is to minimize the troubles caused by blacks in later years.

    I was once trying to find an event that took place in 1909 in the newspapers, but I did not know the date, so I had to browse. I was struck by the proportion of criminal stories that involved blacks. Sometimes, they were just oddball, like black men hearing a rumor that there was a buried treasure in someone’s basement and sneaking in at night with a lantern to dig it up. This isn’t scientific, but back then, the black pop was near about 3%.

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  31. anonymous says: • Website     Show CommentNext New Comment

    OT: The Washington Post … Alzheimer’s caused by white privilege, or racism, or something …

    A new group of studies into racial disparities among people with Alzheimer’s disease suggests that social conditions, including the stress of poverty and racism, substantially raise the risks of dementia for African Americans.

    In four separate studies, researchers found that conditions that affect blacks disproportionately compared with other groups — such as poor living conditions and stressful events such as the loss of a sibling, the divorce of one’s parents or chronic unemployment — have severe consequences for brain health later on.

    One study by University of Wisconsin researchers found that stress literally takes years off a person’s life in terms of brain function — an average of four years for African Americans, compared with 1½ years for whites.

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  32. @Buffalo Joe
    Ed, Buffalo, like Cleveland, is a shadow of it's former industrial and Great Lakes shipping self, however the Medical Campus/Medical Corridor section of downtown is booming. The UB Medical School/Roswell Park Cancer Hospital/Buffalo General Hospital and Women and Children's Hospital has spurred a growth in lofts, condos and apartment buildings. The center of the complex is in Buffalo's East Side, the heart of the hood. If this was all built in the suburbs, you would hear that it was racist, build it in the hood and you are still racist. With this much capital investment there will be better infrastructure and public service, including police patrols. Actually a win for those who live in the neighborhood, but they will have to learn to share with whites, Asian and South Asian neighbors, who will demand order and lawfulness.

    …Asian and South Asian neighbors, who will demand order and lawfulness.

    Dear sweet Lord. How about:

    Asian and South Asian neighbors, who will demand order southern order and lawfulness and southern lawlessness.

    I call it consistent, extraneous consistency.

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  33. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    According to Wiki, the population of Chicago started to fall commencing with the 1960 census and with the exception of the 2000 census has been dropping ever since. As such it is coming perilously close to Detroit in terms of population loss.

    And in other news, just heard that some developers are training their eyes on the Mott Haven section of the South Bronx for possible gentrification. The Element is unhappy at the prospect, of course, but who cares? They’ll be given the usual Section 8 vouchers and will disperse into Westchester County and parts north.

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    • Replies: @prosa123
    "And in other news, just heard that some developers are training their eyes on the Mott Haven section of the South Bronx for possible gentrification."

    I suspect the process of gentrification in NYC is going to stall out for a while. After functioning pretty well for a few decades, the subway system has been experiencing one major crisis after another (and the commuter trains are even worse). All these transportation issues are making city living less and less attractive.

    Peter
  34. @ScarletNumber
    Newark lost 38% of its population from 1930 to 2000. This was accelerated by the riots of 1967, which just had its 50th anniversary. Newark used to be Italian and Jewish, with its most famous natives being Frankie Valli, Chris Christie, Philip Roth, Moe Berg and Ed Koch. Irishman William Brennan also grew up in Newark.

    Newark lost 38% of its population from 1930 to 2000. This was accelerated by the riots of 1967, which just had its 50th anniversary. Newark used to be Italian and Jewish, with its most famous natives being Frankie Valli, Chris Christie, Philip Roth, Moe Berg and Ed Koch. Irishman William Brennan also grew up in Newark.

    I used to have to visit Newark in the early 2000s for work. There was a fairly stark contrast between the Ironbound area populated by Portuguese and Brazilians and the black area, which was more or less the rest of the City.

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    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    Yes, in this case the Ironbound was the right side of the tracks
    , @Daniel H
    I used to visit the Ironbound a lot in the 1980s. It was then, as it is now, a lively, clean, safe, well-ordered urban community. Even poor cities don't have to go to hell.

    Yes Ironbound is largely white: Portuguese predominate but their are enough other white ethnics too (Italians, German, Slav, Irish). And the Brazilians, who are largely white, but with a fair mix of mulatto and caboclo, seamlessly fit in. Interesting neighborhood.
  35. Ever since the abrogation of freedom of association, relations between Negroes and Europeans has been one long, painfully boring Tom & Jerry short. Everyone knows damn good and well exactly what is going on, the characters’ goals and actions are predictable…the whole thing is just pointless nonsense. In fifty years they’ll be back to re-infest Brooklyn.

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    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    Ever since the abrogation of freedom of association, relations between Negroes and Europeans has been one long, painfully boring Tom & Jerry short.
     
    Exactly. Excellent point.

    The end of freedom of association--which would appall the founders--has put the gun to the head of whites. The basic reality is white people create nice stuff. They create prosperity, order, rule-of-law. And other people want it. But now whites--at least white gentiles--are just not allowed to have their own stuff. Not country clubs, not schools, not universities, not neighborhoods, not nations.

    What we've seen is the ideological triumph of the Jewish ideology of (what I call) minoritarianism. Minorities are good and can have their own stuff. But majorities are bad--must be watched carefully for pitchforkism--and can not be allowed to have their own stuff. (Ergo Jewish country clubs still exist, are right smack dab in everyone's face in New York, DC, LA, with prominent members ... and are unworthy of comment. But white-gentile clubs are bastions of racism that must be "opened up" and aired out.)

    Whites can still protect themselves--somewhat--with *price*. But that's pretty much the only way for them. So rich or professional whites can isolate and insolate and sort of make do. (They increasingly have to live with Asians, but their world isn't collapsing). But middle class and working class whites are just screwed. They are simply no longer allowed to have their own stuff. And so--because they can't afford isolation by price--are constantly having their neighborhoods, schools and nations overrun.
  36. What’s the story with Atlanta? I went through not too long ago and the place had that decaying feeling where even around downtown you had the typical negro monkeyshines.

    Is it growing because of stasticial massaging? I.E. claiming some of the suburb counties Whites fled to as part of Atlanta the city?

    Its sad we cant even trust population counts, but these are the days of D+12 polling.

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    • Replies: @Wency
    While I can't really speak for the last 5 years or so, the last 30 years have been good to downtown Atlanta (which represents a fairly small slice of Atlanta metro). Back during the height of the 80s-90s crack epidemic, attending a Braves night game at Fulton County Stadium felt like a suicide pact. Downtown Atlanta is still not a place I want to be, especially at night, but it seems to have cleaned up a good deal.

    Atlanta is basically the best-case outcome for a majority-black city, since a true black middle class has formed. I notice that companies there hire a lot of blacks (especially black women) in receptionist/greeting/PR types of positions, and many of them seem perfectly agreeable, welcoming, and articulate, to a degree that would be considered good by the standards of white workers -- they're not just AA beneficiaries!

    Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be scalable. Atlanta is able to sustain this black middle class by importing these workers from much of the South and even further afield.
  37. @eD
    "BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis."

    St. Louis is an interesting case.

    I agree with the point that Steve makes here and in other posts that a big cause, and probably the main cause, of the decline of these cities is rioting and attacks on non -African American by their African-American population, followed by White flight (but why did the Whites give up so easily)? And there were big riots in St. Louis! But if you look at the population numbers they under-cut Steve's theory.

    I've lived in St. Louis. The metropolitan area is easily the most racially polarized place I've lived in, and probably the most racially polarized of the top 25 US metro areas (here is one list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas, St. Louis as #20, Baltimore, its main competition, is at #21).

    I checked the population trends for St. Louis on Wikipedia, which is a good, easily digestible source for population and demographic numbers, especially after the Census Bureau went and screwed up their website. The article notes that St. Louis lost 62.7% of its population since 1950, the highest number for any city with a population higher than 100,000.

    St. Louis reached peaked population in 1950, at 856,796. The population was 82% white then, and 18% black. St. Louis is one of those places where you are either White or Black, no other racial groupings. The 2010 census had the city's population at 319,294, and it is now estimated to be lower than that. It is now 43.9% White, 49.2% Black, with Hispanics at 3.5%, so immigration from Lain America doesn't seem to have played much of a part here.

    People in St. Louis like to point out that while the city itself has declined (and keep in mind the city boundaries were deliberately drawn to exclude places that would normally be considered to be part of "the city", the metropolitan area as a whole is going strong. With metropolitan area data there is some issue with how you define "metropolitan area", but Wikipedia reports a population of 1,681,281 in 1950, growing to 2,787,101, so fair enough. But keep in mind that the population of the United States as a whole more than doubled during this period (151 million to 307 million), so the 33% increase here is still under-performing. Wikipedia reports 76.9% of the metropolitan areas as White and 18% as black.

    Looking only at African-Americans, about 500,000 live in the metropolitan area, of which about 160,000 live in the city itself. The figure for the city itself is up slightly from the 154,000 Blacks who lived there in 1950. This doesn't under-cut anything Steve wrote, just more context. In percentage turns, the numbers for the proportion of the city in 1950, and the metro area in 2010 turn out to be exactly the same, at 18%.

    The population drop in the city of St. Louis began in the 1950s, with a 12.5% drop. There were bigger drops in the 1960s, at 17%, and 1970s, at 27%, then 12.5% or thereabouts each decade until the city's base population became small enough that you couldn't really get the big percentage drops. In terms of absolute numbers, the biggest drop, 159,000, was in the 1970s with drops of around 110,000 in the 1950s and 1960s.

    I wanted to check this against the 1960s riots in St. Louis, but couldn't find any information at all on Wikipedia, though they do discuss "suburbanization"and air pollution (people started fleeing the city when air pollution was cleared up). Well, its Wikipedia, so I reached for other information, and could only find this article from St. Louis Today: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/st-louis-area-largely-spared-by-civil-rights-era-rioting/article_b9a25f8d-efbf-5f4d-af88-173f543989fe.html. The article claims that there were no riots in St. Louis in the 1960s.

    Anyway, the point of this huge data drop is that the decline in St. Louis started in the 1950s, well before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, before any 1960s urban riots, the 1960s-70s crime wave, and may even have started before Brown vs. Board of Education (1954). It got worse in the 1970s, but was already well underway before you can bring in anything race related. Also, what is unique about St. Louis is not the population drop, which happened in all Northeastern and Midwestern cities, but there was no stabilization or recovery at all. Even the metro area doesn't look that hot when you compare it with national population trends. Note that St. Louis was not a one industry boomtown like Detroit.

    St. Louis is a big enough data point that I think it supports the racial stuff being important, but there being other things going on.

    St Louis, as Paul Kersey over a SBPDL constantly reminds folks, was home to the infamous Shelley SCOTUS decision that struck down restrictive covenants in the late 1940s. That is probably what started White flight there long before the civil rights movement got rolling. Smart whites saw the writing on the wall.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelley_v._Kraemer

    As Steve is fond of reminding folks. The Black Plaque has not reach past Austin into Oak Park because the nice white folks there have come up with their own Wink Wink version of the old restrictive covenant, the one nice middle class black family per block strategy.

    A good question is what percentage of Oak Park is Jewish, observant or atheist and what role has that played in giving Oak Park its special status in the eyes of the courts???

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Oak+Park+illinois+jewish+population&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

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    • Replies: @phil
    According to bestplaces.net, only 1.11% of Oak Park, Illinois is Jewish.
    , @Larry, San Francisco
    South Shore was a Jewish/Scandinavian Chicago neighborhood that was cleansed in the 1960s/1970s by black gang violence. A similar event happened in the Boston neighborhood of Mattapan. Jews may be liberal but that didn't protect them.
  38. Hearing this jazz confirms my (unfortunately false) suspicion, that Americans had a discount on the original sin.

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  39. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @eD
    "BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis."

    St. Louis is an interesting case.

    I agree with the point that Steve makes here and in other posts that a big cause, and probably the main cause, of the decline of these cities is rioting and attacks on non -African American by their African-American population, followed by White flight (but why did the Whites give up so easily)? And there were big riots in St. Louis! But if you look at the population numbers they under-cut Steve's theory.

    I've lived in St. Louis. The metropolitan area is easily the most racially polarized place I've lived in, and probably the most racially polarized of the top 25 US metro areas (here is one list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas, St. Louis as #20, Baltimore, its main competition, is at #21).

    I checked the population trends for St. Louis on Wikipedia, which is a good, easily digestible source for population and demographic numbers, especially after the Census Bureau went and screwed up their website. The article notes that St. Louis lost 62.7% of its population since 1950, the highest number for any city with a population higher than 100,000.

    St. Louis reached peaked population in 1950, at 856,796. The population was 82% white then, and 18% black. St. Louis is one of those places where you are either White or Black, no other racial groupings. The 2010 census had the city's population at 319,294, and it is now estimated to be lower than that. It is now 43.9% White, 49.2% Black, with Hispanics at 3.5%, so immigration from Lain America doesn't seem to have played much of a part here.

    People in St. Louis like to point out that while the city itself has declined (and keep in mind the city boundaries were deliberately drawn to exclude places that would normally be considered to be part of "the city", the metropolitan area as a whole is going strong. With metropolitan area data there is some issue with how you define "metropolitan area", but Wikipedia reports a population of 1,681,281 in 1950, growing to 2,787,101, so fair enough. But keep in mind that the population of the United States as a whole more than doubled during this period (151 million to 307 million), so the 33% increase here is still under-performing. Wikipedia reports 76.9% of the metropolitan areas as White and 18% as black.

    Looking only at African-Americans, about 500,000 live in the metropolitan area, of which about 160,000 live in the city itself. The figure for the city itself is up slightly from the 154,000 Blacks who lived there in 1950. This doesn't under-cut anything Steve wrote, just more context. In percentage turns, the numbers for the proportion of the city in 1950, and the metro area in 2010 turn out to be exactly the same, at 18%.

    The population drop in the city of St. Louis began in the 1950s, with a 12.5% drop. There were bigger drops in the 1960s, at 17%, and 1970s, at 27%, then 12.5% or thereabouts each decade until the city's base population became small enough that you couldn't really get the big percentage drops. In terms of absolute numbers, the biggest drop, 159,000, was in the 1970s with drops of around 110,000 in the 1950s and 1960s.

    I wanted to check this against the 1960s riots in St. Louis, but couldn't find any information at all on Wikipedia, though they do discuss "suburbanization"and air pollution (people started fleeing the city when air pollution was cleared up). Well, its Wikipedia, so I reached for other information, and could only find this article from St. Louis Today: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/st-louis-area-largely-spared-by-civil-rights-era-rioting/article_b9a25f8d-efbf-5f4d-af88-173f543989fe.html. The article claims that there were no riots in St. Louis in the 1960s.

    Anyway, the point of this huge data drop is that the decline in St. Louis started in the 1950s, well before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, before any 1960s urban riots, the 1960s-70s crime wave, and may even have started before Brown vs. Board of Education (1954). It got worse in the 1970s, but was already well underway before you can bring in anything race related. Also, what is unique about St. Louis is not the population drop, which happened in all Northeastern and Midwestern cities, but there was no stabilization or recovery at all. Even the metro area doesn't look that hot when you compare it with national population trends. Note that St. Louis was not a one industry boomtown like Detroit.

    St. Louis is a big enough data point that I think it supports the racial stuff being important, but there being other things going on.

    Why did housing bypass Northeastern and Upper Midwest Central Cities after WW 2? Consider the following:

    1. There was a housing boom in the 1920′s, which had a number of similarities to the early 2000′s boom. There were a lot of large, expensive houses built, none of which had modern wiring or heating and were impractical for middle income single families. Post WW 2, people didn’t want to live in old houses and the notion of a ‘gut rehab’ was considered silly.

    2. This was followed by a decade of very modest new home construction during the 1930′s. It was the depression.

    3. This was followed by WW 2/1940′s when there was no new construction due to the transformation of the economy to War production. And there was an acute housing shortage. 1950′s may have been peak ‘Central City’ because thats all that was available. The only fact that is less obvious is that it took at least a full decade post WW 2 get the US fully running on what is remembered as the post war boom. For example, the first skyscraper built in Chicago since the final 20′s boom buildings (finished in the early 30′s) was the Prudential Building https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Prudential_Plaza. in 1955.

    4. Housing Projects? A ‘well meaning’ idea gone bad.

    5. Urban problems. Cities had political machines, drove up costs, were hard or impossible to reform, and could be avoided by simply moving to a suburb. Once people had cars, there was no compelling reason to put up with costs and issues. Not to mention that older, city housing wasn’t particularly car friendly. Among other things, central business districts became inconvenient for shopping and entertainment shifted toward television, etc.

    6. Centralization of banking and finance. Older, commercial cities — Cincinnati, St. Louis, Philadelphia, and especially Baltimore as well as cities with ports tended to be regional financial centers. By the 1990′s the long term move toward mergers, acquisitions, and scale had put local financial institutions out of Business. As an example, Nationsbank … soon to become Bank of America, bought up both of Baltimore’s large, local banks (Maryland National and Equitable) and the City’s most prominent Investment Bank, Alex Brown, was bought out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex._Brown_%26_Sons. Roughly the same thing occurred with Insurance. Even Chicago faced something similar with banking and insurance, although it is less obvious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_One_Corporation

    7. The rustbelt. It’s easy to see in retrospect. But US monetary policy (strong dollar) and favored the businesses on the coasts to the detriment of center. The US Auto industry was gutted with the Yen @ 300-150 per $US. US capital intensive industry paid market rates for capital while Asian Tigers used predatory, Neo mercantilistic industrial policies (subsidized interest rates) to target the US market. It is still going on — and one reason is that the US doesn’t have an export driven economy. Smaller countries needed exports to take advantage of economies of scale, but the US had a sufficiently large domestic market. The result being that importers (including or especially consumers) weren’t inclined to pay up to support an export oriented economy.

    Why did New York turn around? Don’t underestimate the advantages of financial concentration and centralization of banking and finance and the fact that NY is the Worlds financial center. Enough money and all sorts of things become easy.

    Two points: The reason cities didn’t decline more quickly was because of the relative lack of development between 1930 and 1955. More interesting than the decline of St Louis is the extent to which Chicago is still relatively wealthy. If you look at Detroit, the city is relatively small and was essentially abandon by the late 1960′s. Same with Newark, Gary Indiana, East St Louis and many others. The real question is why that didn’t happen to Chicago, for example. An answer is that the South Side and Austin are still part of the City and get municipal services. Without that, they would have met their Darwinian death with East St Louis and Gary.

    Another is that the largest employers in central cities are government services. But outside of that, the largest businesses are medical. US healthcare centers are dug into central cities like Baltimore. Hopkins is the largest employer in Baltimore and has their own police force/security. Health care has risen from under 10% of GDP to 17% or so, making it the most successful business in the US over the post war period.

    Finally — restricting European immigration had its points. But the need for labor beginning with putting the US on a war footing in the late 1930′s and the lack of European migrants led to the massive migration of Southern blacks to Northern US Cities.

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    • Replies: @Ruffhewn
    A great deal to ponder in this history! Nice comment!
    , @Johann Ricke

    Finally — restricting European immigration had its points. But the need for labor beginning with putting the US on a war footing in the late 1930′s and the lack of European migrants led to the massive migration of Southern blacks to Northern US Cities.
     
    There's also the fact that between WWI and WWII, the US lost 500K prime breeding age white males, who would have had children, whose children would have had children, and so on.
    , @Art Deco
    Why did housing bypass Northeastern and Upper Midwest Central Cities after WW 2? Consider the following:

    1. There was a housing boom in the 1920′s, which had a number of similarities to the early 2000′s boom. There were a lot of large, expensive houses built, none of which had modern wiring or heating and were impractical for middle income single families. Post WW 2, people didn’t want to live in old houses and the notion of a ‘gut rehab’ was considered silly.

    By 1922, shy of 60% of all dwellings were customers of power companies. (See the Statistical Abstract on this point. That refers to the extant housing stock, urban and rural. The notion that ‘large, expensive houses’ ‘none of which had modern wiring’ were being built anew in core cities beggars belief.


    3. This was followed by WW 2/1940′s when there was no new construction due to the transformation of the economy to War production. And there was an acute housing shortage. 1950′s may have been peak ‘Central City’ because thats all that was available. The only fact that is less obvious is that it took at least a full decade post WW 2 get the US fully running on what is remembered as the post war boom. For example, the first skyscraper built in Chicago since the final 20′s boom buildings (finished in the early 30′s) was the Prudential Building https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Prudential_Plaza. in 1955.

    There was a post-war reconversion recession during the period running from the fall of 1945 to the spring of 1947. There followed a brief and disappointing business cycle (1947-49). The business cycle running from 1949 to 1954 saw the most rapid expansion in production of any post-war cycle. The 1954-58 cycle was comparatively lackluster, as was the 1958-60 cycle. The 1960-70 cycle was robust, but not to the degree of the 1949-54 cycle. The Federal Housing Administration was founded in 1937. From 1948 to 1958, the annual number of housing starts ranged from 760,000 to 1.2 million, or 1.7x to 2.7x the level of 1940. That’s an excess of 10 million housing starts in a country which had about 40 million households.


    5. Urban problems. Cities had political machines, drove up costs, were hard or impossible to reform, and could be avoided by simply moving to a suburb. Once people had cars, there was no compelling reason to put up with costs and issues. Not to mention that older, city housing wasn’t particularly car friendly. Among other things, central business districts became inconvenient for shopping and entertainment shifted toward television, etc.

    Actually city machines were losing their dominance in the post-war era. See Edward Banfield on the economy of patronage jobs. (They were not necessarily costly and ineffectual either. See Chicago under Mayor Daley).


    6. Centralization of banking and finance. Older, commercial cities — Cincinnati, St. Louis, Philadelphia, and especially Baltimore as well as cities with ports tended to be regional financial centers. By the 1990′s the long term move toward mergers, acquisitions, and scale had put local financial institutions out of Business. As an example, Nationsbank … soon to become Bank of America, bought up both of Baltimore’s large, local banks (Maryland National and Equitable) and the City’s most prominent Investment Bank, Alex Brown, was bought out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex._Brown_%26_Sons. Roughly the same thing occurred with Insurance. Even Chicago faced something similar with banking and insurance, although it is less obvious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_One_Corporation

    There were two notable periods of financial consolidation: one which ran from 1929 to 1933 and one from about 1980 to 2010. Neither were contemporary with the efflorescence of suburban development. By the way, community banks and regional banks are still omnipresent, though half the asset value is now to be found in the four bulge-bracket banks.


    7. The rustbelt. It’s easy to see in retrospect. But US monetary policy (strong dollar) and favored the businesses on the coasts to the detriment of center. The US Auto industry was gutted with the Yen @ 300-150 per $US. US capital intensive industry paid market rates for capital while Asian Tigers used predatory, Neo mercantilistic industrial policies (subsidized interest rates) to target the US market. It is still going on — and one reason is that the US doesn’t have an export driven economy. Smaller countries needed exports to take advantage of economies of scale, but the US had a sufficiently large domestic market. The result being that importers (including or especially consumers) weren’t inclined to pay up to support an export oriented economy.

    The point of monetary policy after 1980 was to stabilize prices, not to favor coastal industries. What distinguished the United States from Japan and Germany was deficits of public and private savings which were met by foreign borrowing on the part of various parties, capital foreign savers were pleased to supply. One source of the savings deficit has been the absence of a value added tax in this country. The problems of the auto industry can be laid at the door of the deficiencies of those particular enterprises. While we’re at it, how has Japanese industrial policy been working out for them the last generation?


    Why did New York turn around? Don’t underestimate the advantages of financial concentration and centralization of banking and finance and the fact that NY is the Worlds financial center. Enough money and all sorts of things become easy.

    Go ahead and underestimate it. Value added in finance and insurance amounts to 6.5% of the whole outside the New York commuter belt, 16% within that belt. It’s an important local industry, but that’s all it is. The share of value-added in the economy as a whole attributable to finance and insurance (7.2%) is almost precisely the same as it was in 1998 (7.0%). The share attributable to that sector in the New York commuter belt is slightly lower now than it was in 2001 (17.6%). The economy as a whole did grow more oriented toward finance in the post-war period, but that process hit a plateau nearly 20 years ago and the balance between the New York commuter belt and the rest of the country has remained unchanged in that time. Consider the outside story: New York improved its standing because it acted to re-impose public order far more vigorously than any other city of consequence in the country, making its relative quality of life high. Baltimore City and New York City had similar homicide rates in 1980. By 2010, that in Baltimore exceed that in NYC by a factor of 7.


    Two points: The reason cities didn’t decline more quickly was because of the relative lack of development between 1930 and 1955.

    Again, crucial innovations in housing finance were developed during the Depression and there was ample housing development between 1947 and 1955.


    More interesting than the decline of St Louis is the extent to which Chicago is still relatively wealthy.

    St. Louis City accounts for about 20% of the population of the dense settlement as a whole. The City of Chicago accounts for 33%. About 35% of the City of Chicago’s population lives in violent neighborhoods. I’ll wager in St. Louis City, it’s more like 70%.


    If you look at Detroit, the city is relatively small and was essentially abandon by the late 1960′s.

    About 18% of the dense settlement lives in the City of Detroit. It was about 2x that in 1970. The watershed was Jerome Cavanaugh’s misbegotten tenure, especially the 1967 riots.


    Same with Newark, Gary Indiana, East St Louis and many others.

    Each of these is a small component of a much larger urban field. They’re not core cities of a discrete urban settlements. Newark accounts as we speak for 1.5% of the New York settlement, Gary accounts for 1% of the Chicago settlement, and East St. Louis accounts for about 20% of the Belleville settlement, which is in turn < 10% of the St. Louis commuter belt. Your slums have to go somewhere, and the dynamics process dumped them in these municipalities.


    The real question is why that didn’t happen to Chicago, for example. An answer is that the South Side and Austin are still part of the City and get municipal services. Without that, they would have met their Darwinian death with East St Louis and Gary.

    The answer to that is that the City of Chicago is the core city of the whole settlement, encompassing 36% thereof. It’s not a decrepit little component of that settlement like Gary.


    Another is that the largest employers in central cities are government services.

    In the unimportant sense that conventional statistics on income and employment treat ‘government services’ as a uniform category (comprising 15% of the workforce) while private employment is reported sector-by-sector (Manufacturing, 9%; Retail Trade, 10%; Finance and Insurance, 4.5%, etc).


    But outside of that, the largest businesses are medical. US healthcare centers are dug into central cities like Baltimore. Hopkins is the largest employer in Baltimore and has their own police force/security. Health care has risen from under 10% of GDP to 17% or so, making it the most successful business in the US over the post war period.

    ‘Health Care and Social Assistance’ account for 7.3% of value-added in the economy and 13% of employment. The ‘17%’ figure you see bruited about makes use of gross output in that sector in the numerator and gross domestic product in the denominator. It’s a misleading datum.


    Finally — restricting European immigration had its points. But the need for labor beginning with putting the US on a war footing in the late 1930′s and the lack of European migrants led to the massive migration of Southern blacks to Northern US Cities.

    The pre-war re-armament began in 1940, as did peace time conscription. The initial 18 months were a modest militarization compared to what prevailed after Pearl Harbor. There was no re-armament during the 1930s.

    You had several sorts of forces driving black migration northward: wage arbitrage, the relative decline of the agricultural economy (manifest in an absolute decline in farm employment over the period running from 1920 to 1940 and beyond), and a trigger-and-chain-migration pattern which began with cotton crop failures in 1915. All of these were extant prior to re-armament and, in fact, prior to advent of immigration restriction. I have no clue where you expected black labor leaving the agricultural sector to go.
  40. One thing that Steve neglects to mention about the Austin neighborhood is that it is notorious prime drug dealing turf.

    On weekend evenings there a long lines of cars backing up the Eisenhower expressway of folks looking to get off at one the Austin exits in order to score drugs. For what I know it has been that way since the 1970s.

    Back in the 90s I stayed the night in Oak Park literally across the street from Austin. The Chicago and Oak Park cops literally block the east-west streets making sure the conga-line of cars cruising for drugs stayed inside the Austin boundary.

    Read More
  41. Poor, underclass Blacks are being “ethnically cleansed” from my, Obama’s former Chicago South Side lakefront area.

    Upper Middle Class Blacks are working with Whites, Gays, Asians to facilitate the ethnic cleansing of lower class, welfare underclass Blacks from the SS Lakefront. There are so many subtle and not so subtle things being done in this area.

    I notice that virtually all the outdoor concrete Basketball courts have been taken off the Lakefront. Lower class Blacks like to barbecue, drink, play basketball and harass women, White folks, cyclists. So the City put in lots of things that underclass Blacks have no use for – prairie restoration projects, expensive sail boat basins, the city ended all free parking on the lakefront parks. For a long while there was no walking access from poor Black areas in North Kenwood/Bronzeville – no bridges across the metra tracks which serve as a very effective “moat” to protect the lakefront parks.

    No sure how the Obama library in Jackson Park will change things. The huge Tiger Woods investment to upgrade Jackson Park and South Shore golf courses in to a top level golf course – I doubt poor, underclass Blacks are going to be paying $100 for a round of golf.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Craw
    There is no point in building the Obama library (projected cost: $1 BILLION) and Tiger Woods golf course in Jackson Park if the surrounding area is not gentrified. Otherwise it's too dangerous, and thus financially unwise.

    The Jackson Park site is surrounded on the West and South by the Grand Crossing, Woodlawn and South Shore neighborhoods, which, according to the Chicago Tribune, are the 7th, 8th and 9th most violent neighborhoods in Chicago (see http://crime.chicagotribune.com/). (BTW, Chicago consists of 77 neighborhood areas.) To the North is the Hyde Park neighborhood, home to the University of Chicago and its large hospital, as well as the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry. According to the Chicago Tribune, Hyde Park is the 29th most violent neighborhood in Chicago. The University and Museum have been outposts for decades and, I assume, welcome the changes wrought by the library and golf course. (Steve’s readers may recall that BHO landed a cushy job lecturing at the U of C law school just about a year after having graduated law school himself!)

    Back in 2012 Steve didn’t think that BHO was a major player in proposed real estate driven changes on the south side of Chicago. (See “An Old White Lefty’s View of Where Obama is Coming From, iSteve, May 27, 2012.)

    In that post Steve quoted at length from a 2008 speech given by Robert Fitch, a New York-based, leftwing journalist. In that speech Fitch alleged that when Rev. Jeremiah Wright became too troublesome for Obama, Obama switched his church affiliation to the Apostolic Church of God (“ACG”) in Woodlawn. At that time the ACG was headed up by the “Bishop” Arthur M. Brazier. Fitch further alleged that Brazier - through the ACG and its affiliate, The Woodlawn Organization - and the U of C were scheming to gentrify Woodlawn.

    The site of the BHO Presidential library was announced in July 2016. This July 2016 Chicago Tribune article reports the selection of the Jackson Park site and notes that the site is adjacent to Woodlawn. http://www.chicagotribune.com/ct-obama-library-jackson-park-announced-met-20160729-story.html . It also notes that much of the vacant land in Woodlawn is owned by the ACG and its affiliate The Woodlawn Community Development Corp.

    I think that in light of the placement of the BHO library Steve should revise his earlier conclusion.
  42. …”Middle-class black families moved in (to Austin). They were eager to leave the South Side, where the African-American community for decades had been sequestered…”

    So… Why did these blacks want to leave a majority black neighborhood? Regardless whether they were sequestered by segregation, what was the impetus?

    …Other blacks.

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  43. Speaking of urban discontents, you know there has to be a reason the MFM is running with the shooting in Minnesota. “Name not being released…” (???) What’s the early betting … some sort of “Jonah from Tonga”-type Polynesian, or the radicalized daughter of Muslim “refugee” to Australia?

    Read More
    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    Cop is Somali-American, victim as white as mayonnaise

    https://o.aolcdn.com/images/dims3/GLOB/crop/1802x902+0+232/resize/630x315!/format/jpg/quality/85/http%3A%2F%2Fo.aolcdn.com%2Fhss%2Fstorage%2Fmidas%2F1b66035728c28f5b36dae93009bb3455%2F205481502%2FJustine%2BDamond.jpg


    We need more Somali immigrants to do the jobs Americans won't do and gun down white women.
    , @Calvin X Hobbes

    Speaking of urban discontents, you know there has to be a reason the MFM is running with the shooting in Minnesota. “Name not being released…”
     
    http://kstp.com/news/mohamed-noor-officer-involved-shooting-justine-diamond-fatal-minneapolis-shooting/4544324/?cat=1

    "Multiple sources have confirmed to KSTP Monday morning that the identity of the Minneapolis police officer who shot and killed a woman Saturday in southwest Minneapolis is Mohamed Noor."
    ...
    "Noor is the first Somali-American police officer in the 5th Precinct. He has a degree is business administration and economics from Augsburg College."
    , @Ximenes
    The officer who did the shooting has been named by the Minneapolis Star Tribune. He is Mohamed Noor, said to be the first Somalian officer on the MPD. All the discussion so far, however, has been focused on the fact that none of the officers on the scene had their body-cams turned on.
  44. John McWhorter’s review of Amy Wax’s book is worth pondering.

    The hypothesis is that race based slavery, and then Jim Crow after it, destroyed human capital for many Black Americans.

    Government programs can’t do much to build it back up. Not can most external interventions. Pity and compassion from well meaning strangers doesn’t do much, either. Giving things to people is not enough, and sometimes deepens the problem.

    Success comes largely from ones own efforts. Making something of oneself is a self-help exercise. So argued Booker T. Washington.

    Meanwhile, the temptations are many.

    Some of the Irish Catholic leadership (Dagger John) concluded the same thing in the 19th century. See the article “How “Dagger John” saved New York’s Irish,” online at city-journal.org

    https://newrepublic.com/article/76403/what-hope

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist

    “How “Dagger John” saved New York’s Irish,”
     
    City Journal is a staunchly neo-conservative source. That said, in its own way it's still a deeply Trotsky-ite non-race realist website but in a authoritarian fashion that appeals to foolish cuckservatives. Would/Does a "Dagger John" approach help 95 and above IQ, mostly mulatto, blacks??? Absolutely, at least to some extent. But to argue that a "Dagger John", if we could just fix the schools, bring back "Cultural Literacy" and school uniforms, KIPP charter schools for all, etc approach would help the left side of the black ghetto bell curve is foolish.

    Booker T Washington was famous for working with Julius Rosenwald, the Sears Roebuck executive and founder of the NAACP in building hundreds of schools through out the south.. But it was called the NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF COLORED PEOPLE", for a reason. Neither Booker T. Washington or Rosenwald were, "race does not exist", Boasian marxists. Once identified with his schools, Rosenwald welcomed the mostly mulatto "talented tenth" to come up north and work in Sears' vast network of catalog plants and supply chain factories on Chicago's westside just southeast of Austin along Homan Avenue. Unfortunately for Chicago the other 90% of southern blacks soon tagged along especially as cotton fields began to be mechanized.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booker_T._Washington

    The "Dagger John" story is sold as a solution by Neo-Cons for black low IQ, degeneracy and violence. Sorry but the 19th century immigrant Irish at their worse had a lot more to work with than today's ghetto blacks.

    "Dagger John" delusion is in many was similar to the Open Border argument that today's Mestizo illegal aliens are just so like yesterday's Italian immigrants.
    , @San Fernando Curt
    "The hypothesis is that race based slavery, and then Jim Crow after it, destroyed human capital for many Black Americans.”

    And that’s new? So it’s all whitey’s fault… No, there’s nothing new there. Actually that very ancient hypothesis is the villain: When you tell people all their problems are the fault of someone else, you destroy any incentive for them to improve themselves. Welfare and drugs just finished them off. Trying to spark rage that would fuel a black revolutionary militancy, the Left relentlessly has crippled those it would so presentationally “help”.

    , @Anon
    If you can't rebuild human capital 150 years after slavery ended, then there isn't anything to work with.
  45. @eD
    "BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis."

    St. Louis is an interesting case.

    I agree with the point that Steve makes here and in other posts that a big cause, and probably the main cause, of the decline of these cities is rioting and attacks on non -African American by their African-American population, followed by White flight (but why did the Whites give up so easily)? And there were big riots in St. Louis! But if you look at the population numbers they under-cut Steve's theory.

    I've lived in St. Louis. The metropolitan area is easily the most racially polarized place I've lived in, and probably the most racially polarized of the top 25 US metro areas (here is one list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas, St. Louis as #20, Baltimore, its main competition, is at #21).

    I checked the population trends for St. Louis on Wikipedia, which is a good, easily digestible source for population and demographic numbers, especially after the Census Bureau went and screwed up their website. The article notes that St. Louis lost 62.7% of its population since 1950, the highest number for any city with a population higher than 100,000.

    St. Louis reached peaked population in 1950, at 856,796. The population was 82% white then, and 18% black. St. Louis is one of those places where you are either White or Black, no other racial groupings. The 2010 census had the city's population at 319,294, and it is now estimated to be lower than that. It is now 43.9% White, 49.2% Black, with Hispanics at 3.5%, so immigration from Lain America doesn't seem to have played much of a part here.

    People in St. Louis like to point out that while the city itself has declined (and keep in mind the city boundaries were deliberately drawn to exclude places that would normally be considered to be part of "the city", the metropolitan area as a whole is going strong. With metropolitan area data there is some issue with how you define "metropolitan area", but Wikipedia reports a population of 1,681,281 in 1950, growing to 2,787,101, so fair enough. But keep in mind that the population of the United States as a whole more than doubled during this period (151 million to 307 million), so the 33% increase here is still under-performing. Wikipedia reports 76.9% of the metropolitan areas as White and 18% as black.

    Looking only at African-Americans, about 500,000 live in the metropolitan area, of which about 160,000 live in the city itself. The figure for the city itself is up slightly from the 154,000 Blacks who lived there in 1950. This doesn't under-cut anything Steve wrote, just more context. In percentage turns, the numbers for the proportion of the city in 1950, and the metro area in 2010 turn out to be exactly the same, at 18%.

    The population drop in the city of St. Louis began in the 1950s, with a 12.5% drop. There were bigger drops in the 1960s, at 17%, and 1970s, at 27%, then 12.5% or thereabouts each decade until the city's base population became small enough that you couldn't really get the big percentage drops. In terms of absolute numbers, the biggest drop, 159,000, was in the 1970s with drops of around 110,000 in the 1950s and 1960s.

    I wanted to check this against the 1960s riots in St. Louis, but couldn't find any information at all on Wikipedia, though they do discuss "suburbanization"and air pollution (people started fleeing the city when air pollution was cleared up). Well, its Wikipedia, so I reached for other information, and could only find this article from St. Louis Today: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/st-louis-area-largely-spared-by-civil-rights-era-rioting/article_b9a25f8d-efbf-5f4d-af88-173f543989fe.html. The article claims that there were no riots in St. Louis in the 1960s.

    Anyway, the point of this huge data drop is that the decline in St. Louis started in the 1950s, well before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, before any 1960s urban riots, the 1960s-70s crime wave, and may even have started before Brown vs. Board of Education (1954). It got worse in the 1970s, but was already well underway before you can bring in anything race related. Also, what is unique about St. Louis is not the population drop, which happened in all Northeastern and Midwestern cities, but there was no stabilization or recovery at all. Even the metro area doesn't look that hot when you compare it with national population trends. Note that St. Louis was not a one industry boomtown like Detroit.

    St. Louis is a big enough data point that I think it supports the racial stuff being important, but there being other things going on.

    I grew up in St. Louis, and they didn’t have riots like some other cities.

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  46. Wouldn’t the effect depend on which blacks were moving in, as well as the numbers and percentages? Has anyone studied the number of middle class blacks (including the visibly Talented Tenth types) an area can absorb before it all goes to hell, as opposed to the types who arrive via Section 8 vouchers?

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  47. At least part of the reason for the population decline in black Chicago neighborhoods must be the deterioration of the housing stock. After 40, 50, or 60 years, the buildings that the original white residents built are falling apart from lack of maintenance and destructive behavior. On some blocks in the ghetto, of (say) 10 lots, 3 might still have inhabited houses, 2 might be anbandoned and boarded up, and the other 5 will be rubble-strewn vacant lots.

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  48. There is not a single place on the planet where Africans congregate that is not a failure, save a few affirmative-action communities, facilitated by altruistic Good-Whites, such as the one for the Talented 10%, outside Washington D.C.

    Africa is 4 times the size of the USA, with double the natural resources, yet there is not a single “successful” Black country there. Same where ever Africans have settled, be it Haiti, Brazil, London, Detroit, or East St. Louis.

    Blacks are the destroyers of civilization and harmony, everywhere on Earth.

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  49. @Ed
    The media never holds black people responsible for the conditions that they create. A good example of this phenomonen is this Politico article about the Cleveland Clinic and the surrounding black neighborhood.


    http://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/obamacare-cleveland-clinic-non-profit-hospital-taxes/

    Re Cleveland Clinic, there is also a theme about the neighborhood decline around some universities. See Yale and New Haven as one example.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    The theme of neighborhood decline around universities .....

    The reason it is a theme is that people care and there is enough money involved to resist the decline. A 'vanilla' declining neighborhood is so unremarkable that no one much cares or notices.
  50. There has been a lot of research in neighborhood tipping point behavior, notably by economist Thomas Schelling in the 70s and by economist David Card more recently.

    According to Card, white neighborhoods might tolerate perhaps 10 or 15 percent black/minority population, but typically much higher and things become unstable, trending towards an all black final equilibrium. You won’t tend to see a neighborhood that’s, say, 40% black, at least for very long it seems.

    https://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/09/opinion/whose-neighborhood-is-it.html

    I don’t recall reading anything specifically on the second stage after an area has tipped but based on places like Baltimore it appears you get a lot of boarded up, blighted housing.

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  51. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Newark lost 38% of its population from 1930 to 2000. This was accelerated by the riots of 1967, which just had its 50th anniversary. Newark used to be Italian and Jewish, with its most famous natives being Frankie Valli, Chris Christie, Philip Roth, Moe Berg and Ed Koch. Irishman William Brennan also grew up in Newark.
     
    I used to have to visit Newark in the early 2000s for work. There was a fairly stark contrast between the Ironbound area populated by Portuguese and Brazilians and the black area, which was more or less the rest of the City.

    Yes, in this case the Ironbound was the right side of the tracks

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  52. @eD
    "BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis."

    St. Louis is an interesting case.

    I agree with the point that Steve makes here and in other posts that a big cause, and probably the main cause, of the decline of these cities is rioting and attacks on non -African American by their African-American population, followed by White flight (but why did the Whites give up so easily)? And there were big riots in St. Louis! But if you look at the population numbers they under-cut Steve's theory.

    I've lived in St. Louis. The metropolitan area is easily the most racially polarized place I've lived in, and probably the most racially polarized of the top 25 US metro areas (here is one list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas, St. Louis as #20, Baltimore, its main competition, is at #21).

    I checked the population trends for St. Louis on Wikipedia, which is a good, easily digestible source for population and demographic numbers, especially after the Census Bureau went and screwed up their website. The article notes that St. Louis lost 62.7% of its population since 1950, the highest number for any city with a population higher than 100,000.

    St. Louis reached peaked population in 1950, at 856,796. The population was 82% white then, and 18% black. St. Louis is one of those places where you are either White or Black, no other racial groupings. The 2010 census had the city's population at 319,294, and it is now estimated to be lower than that. It is now 43.9% White, 49.2% Black, with Hispanics at 3.5%, so immigration from Lain America doesn't seem to have played much of a part here.

    People in St. Louis like to point out that while the city itself has declined (and keep in mind the city boundaries were deliberately drawn to exclude places that would normally be considered to be part of "the city", the metropolitan area as a whole is going strong. With metropolitan area data there is some issue with how you define "metropolitan area", but Wikipedia reports a population of 1,681,281 in 1950, growing to 2,787,101, so fair enough. But keep in mind that the population of the United States as a whole more than doubled during this period (151 million to 307 million), so the 33% increase here is still under-performing. Wikipedia reports 76.9% of the metropolitan areas as White and 18% as black.

    Looking only at African-Americans, about 500,000 live in the metropolitan area, of which about 160,000 live in the city itself. The figure for the city itself is up slightly from the 154,000 Blacks who lived there in 1950. This doesn't under-cut anything Steve wrote, just more context. In percentage turns, the numbers for the proportion of the city in 1950, and the metro area in 2010 turn out to be exactly the same, at 18%.

    The population drop in the city of St. Louis began in the 1950s, with a 12.5% drop. There were bigger drops in the 1960s, at 17%, and 1970s, at 27%, then 12.5% or thereabouts each decade until the city's base population became small enough that you couldn't really get the big percentage drops. In terms of absolute numbers, the biggest drop, 159,000, was in the 1970s with drops of around 110,000 in the 1950s and 1960s.

    I wanted to check this against the 1960s riots in St. Louis, but couldn't find any information at all on Wikipedia, though they do discuss "suburbanization"and air pollution (people started fleeing the city when air pollution was cleared up). Well, its Wikipedia, so I reached for other information, and could only find this article from St. Louis Today: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/st-louis-area-largely-spared-by-civil-rights-era-rioting/article_b9a25f8d-efbf-5f4d-af88-173f543989fe.html. The article claims that there were no riots in St. Louis in the 1960s.

    Anyway, the point of this huge data drop is that the decline in St. Louis started in the 1950s, well before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, before any 1960s urban riots, the 1960s-70s crime wave, and may even have started before Brown vs. Board of Education (1954). It got worse in the 1970s, but was already well underway before you can bring in anything race related. Also, what is unique about St. Louis is not the population drop, which happened in all Northeastern and Midwestern cities, but there was no stabilization or recovery at all. Even the metro area doesn't look that hot when you compare it with national population trends. Note that St. Louis was not a one industry boomtown like Detroit.

    St. Louis is a big enough data point that I think it supports the racial stuff being important, but there being other things going on.

    So it wasn’t the exit of the St. Louis Browns in ’53 what triggered it?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_St._Louis_Browns

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    • Replies: @Flip
    "To this day, the Orioles make almost no mention of their past as the Browns."

    Shabby.
    , @Steve Sailer
    St. Louis had the best location in the country back when the best mode of transportation was the riverboat.

    There was probably a chance for St. Louis to stay a major transportation hub, but I think Chicago beat them to the postwar jet airport and then Dallas and then Denver piled on with bigger and better airports.
  53. @The Only Catholic Unionist
    Speaking of urban discontents, you know there has to be a reason the MFM is running with the shooting in Minnesota. "Name not being released..." (???) What's the early betting ... some sort of "Jonah from Tonga"-type Polynesian, or the radicalized daughter of Muslim "refugee" to Australia?

    Cop is Somali-American, victim as white as mayonnaise

    https://o.aolcdn.com/images/dims3/GLOB/crop/1802×902+0+232/resize/630×315!/format/jpg/quality/85/http%3A%2F%2Fo.aolcdn.com%2Fhss%2Fstorage%2Fmidas%2F1b66035728c28f5b36dae93009bb3455%2F205481502%2FJustine%2BDamond.jpg

    We need more Somali immigrants to do the jobs Americans won’t do and gun down white women.

    Read More
  54. @eD
    "BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis."

    St. Louis is an interesting case.

    I agree with the point that Steve makes here and in other posts that a big cause, and probably the main cause, of the decline of these cities is rioting and attacks on non -African American by their African-American population, followed by White flight (but why did the Whites give up so easily)? And there were big riots in St. Louis! But if you look at the population numbers they under-cut Steve's theory.

    I've lived in St. Louis. The metropolitan area is easily the most racially polarized place I've lived in, and probably the most racially polarized of the top 25 US metro areas (here is one list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas, St. Louis as #20, Baltimore, its main competition, is at #21).

    I checked the population trends for St. Louis on Wikipedia, which is a good, easily digestible source for population and demographic numbers, especially after the Census Bureau went and screwed up their website. The article notes that St. Louis lost 62.7% of its population since 1950, the highest number for any city with a population higher than 100,000.

    St. Louis reached peaked population in 1950, at 856,796. The population was 82% white then, and 18% black. St. Louis is one of those places where you are either White or Black, no other racial groupings. The 2010 census had the city's population at 319,294, and it is now estimated to be lower than that. It is now 43.9% White, 49.2% Black, with Hispanics at 3.5%, so immigration from Lain America doesn't seem to have played much of a part here.

    People in St. Louis like to point out that while the city itself has declined (and keep in mind the city boundaries were deliberately drawn to exclude places that would normally be considered to be part of "the city", the metropolitan area as a whole is going strong. With metropolitan area data there is some issue with how you define "metropolitan area", but Wikipedia reports a population of 1,681,281 in 1950, growing to 2,787,101, so fair enough. But keep in mind that the population of the United States as a whole more than doubled during this period (151 million to 307 million), so the 33% increase here is still under-performing. Wikipedia reports 76.9% of the metropolitan areas as White and 18% as black.

    Looking only at African-Americans, about 500,000 live in the metropolitan area, of which about 160,000 live in the city itself. The figure for the city itself is up slightly from the 154,000 Blacks who lived there in 1950. This doesn't under-cut anything Steve wrote, just more context. In percentage turns, the numbers for the proportion of the city in 1950, and the metro area in 2010 turn out to be exactly the same, at 18%.

    The population drop in the city of St. Louis began in the 1950s, with a 12.5% drop. There were bigger drops in the 1960s, at 17%, and 1970s, at 27%, then 12.5% or thereabouts each decade until the city's base population became small enough that you couldn't really get the big percentage drops. In terms of absolute numbers, the biggest drop, 159,000, was in the 1970s with drops of around 110,000 in the 1950s and 1960s.

    I wanted to check this against the 1960s riots in St. Louis, but couldn't find any information at all on Wikipedia, though they do discuss "suburbanization"and air pollution (people started fleeing the city when air pollution was cleared up). Well, its Wikipedia, so I reached for other information, and could only find this article from St. Louis Today: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/st-louis-area-largely-spared-by-civil-rights-era-rioting/article_b9a25f8d-efbf-5f4d-af88-173f543989fe.html. The article claims that there were no riots in St. Louis in the 1960s.

    Anyway, the point of this huge data drop is that the decline in St. Louis started in the 1950s, well before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, before any 1960s urban riots, the 1960s-70s crime wave, and may even have started before Brown vs. Board of Education (1954). It got worse in the 1970s, but was already well underway before you can bring in anything race related. Also, what is unique about St. Louis is not the population drop, which happened in all Northeastern and Midwestern cities, but there was no stabilization or recovery at all. Even the metro area doesn't look that hot when you compare it with national population trends. Note that St. Louis was not a one industry boomtown like Detroit.

    St. Louis is a big enough data point that I think it supports the racial stuff being important, but there being other things going on.

    The Countenance blog has a lot of very granular, depressing, coverage of St. Louis, but I don’t know if he ever posts about historical analysis.

    Interesting to compare St. Louis (peak pop 1950) to New Orleans (peak pop 1960). From 1860-1880 both STL and NOLA were in the top ten U.S. cities by population.

    Some argue that governance can make a big difference, i.e. New Orleans vs. Houston

    https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/new-orleans-an-autopsy/

    https://www.city-journal.org/html/houston%E2%80%99s-noble-experiment-12929.html

    Without knowing anything really, I wonder if the particular ethnic combination in St. Louis culture affected its governance: Yankees (the Eliots), Germans (the Busches and Prufocks), Southern, black, etc.

    https://www.stlmag.com/arts/literary/meet-the-real-prufrock-behind-t-s-eliot%E2%80%99s-famous-poem/

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  55. Whatever Whites do, it will be deemed racist.

    Racist = White person.

    Anti-racist = anti-White.

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  56. Anyway, a question I’ve never seen investigated is the extent to which African American influxes eventually lead to depopulation and desolation.

    The first blacks to arrive in white areas will be very untypical. It is the outflow of middle class blacks that leads to black neighbourhoods descending into crime ridden hellholes. Whole countries in Africa will experience the same downward spiral.

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  57. @Jack Hanson
    What's the story with Atlanta? I went through not too long ago and the place had that decaying feeling where even around downtown you had the typical negro monkeyshines.

    Is it growing because of stasticial massaging? I.E. claiming some of the suburb counties Whites fled to as part of Atlanta the city?

    Its sad we cant even trust population counts, but these are the days of D+12 polling.

    While I can’t really speak for the last 5 years or so, the last 30 years have been good to downtown Atlanta (which represents a fairly small slice of Atlanta metro). Back during the height of the 80s-90s crack epidemic, attending a Braves night game at Fulton County Stadium felt like a suicide pact. Downtown Atlanta is still not a place I want to be, especially at night, but it seems to have cleaned up a good deal.

    Atlanta is basically the best-case outcome for a majority-black city, since a true black middle class has formed. I notice that companies there hire a lot of blacks (especially black women) in receptionist/greeting/PR types of positions, and many of them seem perfectly agreeable, welcoming, and articulate, to a degree that would be considered good by the standards of white workers — they’re not just AA beneficiaries!

    Unfortunately, this doesn’t seem to be scalable. Atlanta is able to sustain this black middle class by importing these workers from much of the South and even further afield.

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    • Replies: @bartok

    I notice that companies there hire a lot of blacks (especially black women) in receptionist/greeting/PR types of positions ... they’re not just AA beneficiaries!
     
    These private-sector Atlanta workers would seem to be quite overpaid, at ~$25-30k per year plus benefits. I suspect that it is self-imposed AA, either on purpose or by accident. (Once hired, cannot be fired). In my experience, Jewish business owners express their noblesse oblige by hiring blacks in the Oak Park % ranges (10-15%). Yes, there are Jews in the South.
    , @ia
    "Atlanta is basically the best-case outcome for a majority-black city, since a true black middle class has formed."

    I'm curious about where these middle class blacks send their kids to school. What are the racial percentages and school performance? Anything above, say, 30% black sane whites flee. Especially, middle and high.
  58. Tragically that Australian woman shot and killed in Minnesota was murdered by a ” Somali American” named Mohammed Noor, according to the Daily Mail.

    Diversity kills.

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  59. When I was a loan agent 40 years ago, the negros were always the biggest challenge.

    They would have good income from the govt job they had, some even had a little bit saved.

    Then the credit report would come in; 4 out of 10 were just complete disasters. Multiple late pays, bankruptcies, car repo’s, you name it; they did it. The other 5 still had problems.

    So the real losers were shown the door, no way could they meet the conforming loan standards Fannie Mae had for borrowers, or the banks own money that they didn’t try to sell to Fannie Mae.

    The rest were in ‘assigned risk’ type of deal and they got the loans that were higher interest rates, huge loan and garbage fees, and monster pre-payment penalties. (When the investor has a higher interest loan being paid, the last thing they want is for the loan to get re-financed into something better for the borrower, so they put a 6 month interest penalty if you repay the loan in the first 5 years or so).

    The simple reason why they paid more was there was a much higher chance of them flaking on the loan payments and then the troubles start, which cost a lot of money to fix.

    The 10% with good income and credit, they paid about the same as whites with the same ranking….we had to report to HUD the race of all the customers, just so they could compile their stats about negros paying more. They weren’t interested in why they paid more, just that they did.

    Racism…

    Knew somebody that lived 1/2 mile north of Wrigley about 40 years ago. After spending 15 minutes looking for a parking spot, they got to walk a couple of blocks to the apartment. Good chance they heard gun shots during the walk, wondered if they were in the line of fire, whether to get down next to a car.

    Now they live in a 96% white area…

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  60. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Ivy
    Re Cleveland Clinic, there is also a theme about the neighborhood decline around some universities. See Yale and New Haven as one example.

    The theme of neighborhood decline around universities …..

    The reason it is a theme is that people care and there is enough money involved to resist the decline. A ‘vanilla’ declining neighborhood is so unremarkable that no one much cares or notices.

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  61. “St. Louis is an interesting case.”

    I’m wondering what the point of the city is anymore. It was built to serve a river economy that doesn’t exist any longer.

    The real question is why haven’t all the residents moved way, not just 62%

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  62. I grew up in the Lakeview/DePaul neighborhood in Chicago late Fifties into the Sixties. When I was a kid the neighborhood was mainly working class whites with some Hispanic. No blacks until later. Had a childhood friend who insisted he was Creole but he looked black to us. ‘Twas no big deal, we hung out with him. Don’t recall him encountering any race related problems. Things started turning in the late Sixties when DePaul University started gobbling up real estate near the Lincoln, Fullerton, Halsted area for expansion. Children’s Memorial Hospital also started buying property for their expansion. Upon leaving home at 15 I lived all over the North Side of Chicago. Got married in the early Eighties, we bought a two-flat near the Polish neighborhood off Milwaukee Ave. Had our 2 sons there. Decided to move out because there was no way in Hell we were going to put our boys in Chicago public schools. Also, I worked in the western suburbs and we wanted to eliminate the long commute. The last straw was when our tenant was mugged in the backyard one afternoon and when my wife noticed someone trying to break into our car which was parked on the street in front of the building. She yelled at him through the window and he ran off. We did not use our garage, we rented it out.

    I remember when Oak Park which is adjacent to the Austin neighborhood had its East/West streets which intersected Austin Ave. one way going East to make entry into Oak Park from Austin less convenient. My wife, who grew up in Oak Park in a huge 7 bedroom, 5 bathroom house said it wasn’t until she went away to college that she realized not everyone lived like her family. I find that fascinating since she lived a stone’s throw away from Austin.

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  63. @charles w abbott
    John McWhorter's review of Amy Wax's book is worth pondering.

    The hypothesis is that race based slavery, and then Jim Crow after it, destroyed human capital for many Black Americans.

    Government programs can't do much to build it back up. Not can most external interventions. Pity and compassion from well meaning strangers doesn't do much, either. Giving things to people is not enough, and sometimes deepens the problem.

    Success comes largely from ones own efforts. Making something of oneself is a self-help exercise. So argued Booker T. Washington.

    Meanwhile, the temptations are many.

    Some of the Irish Catholic leadership (Dagger John) concluded the same thing in the 19th century. See the article "How "Dagger John" saved New York's Irish," online at city-journal.org



    https://newrepublic.com/article/76403/what-hope

    “How “Dagger John” saved New York’s Irish,”

    City Journal is a staunchly neo-conservative source. That said, in its own way it’s still a deeply Trotsky-ite non-race realist website but in a authoritarian fashion that appeals to foolish cuckservatives. Would/Does a “Dagger John” approach help 95 and above IQ, mostly mulatto, blacks??? Absolutely, at least to some extent. But to argue that a “Dagger John”, if we could just fix the schools, bring back “Cultural Literacy” and school uniforms, KIPP charter schools for all, etc approach would help the left side of the black ghetto bell curve is foolish.

    Booker T Washington was famous for working with Julius Rosenwald, the Sears Roebuck executive and founder of the NAACP in building hundreds of schools through out the south.. But it was called the NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF COLORED PEOPLE“, for a reason. Neither Booker T. Washington or Rosenwald were, “race does not exist”, Boasian marxists. Once identified with his schools, Rosenwald welcomed the mostly mulatto “talented tenth” to come up north and work in Sears’ vast network of catalog plants and supply chain factories on Chicago’s westside just southeast of Austin along Homan Avenue. Unfortunately for Chicago the other 90% of southern blacks soon tagged along especially as cotton fields began to be mechanized.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booker_T._Washington

    The “Dagger John” story is sold as a solution by Neo-Cons for black low IQ, degeneracy and violence. Sorry but the 19th century immigrant Irish at their worse had a lot more to work with than today’s ghetto blacks.

    “Dagger John” delusion is in many was similar to the Open Border argument that today’s Mestizo illegal aliens are just so like yesterday’s Italian immigrants.

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    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist
    One more point about City-Journal.

    I admire Heather Mcdonald as far as she goes. But she knows exactly how far she can go towards race realism and not run afoul of the Neo-Con bigwigs who pay her bills.

    Heather Mcdonald is City-Journals replacement for the sociologist & criminologist James Q Wilson and not a completely bad one. But in his last years Wilson was revisiting heredity and its impact on crime and was coming very close to being an out right race realist.

    A return to legally approved segregation via freedom of association through restrictive covenants and yes, both positive and negative eugenic policies are way beyond what Heather Mcdonald and City-Journal are willing to openly discuss.

    And those are the only real solutions.
  64. @The Only Catholic Unionist
    Speaking of urban discontents, you know there has to be a reason the MFM is running with the shooting in Minnesota. "Name not being released..." (???) What's the early betting ... some sort of "Jonah from Tonga"-type Polynesian, or the radicalized daughter of Muslim "refugee" to Australia?

    Speaking of urban discontents, you know there has to be a reason the MFM is running with the shooting in Minnesota. “Name not being released…”

    http://kstp.com/news/mohamed-noor-officer-involved-shooting-justine-diamond-fatal-minneapolis-shooting/4544324/?cat=1

    “Multiple sources have confirmed to KSTP Monday morning that the identity of the Minneapolis police officer who shot and killed a woman Saturday in southwest Minneapolis is Mohamed Noor.”

    “Noor is the first Somali-American police officer in the 5th Precinct. He has a degree is business administration and economics from Augsburg College.”

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    • Replies: @res
    Much more information at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4703892/Police-officer-shot-Justine-Damond-identified.html

    Why have body cams if you are going to leave them off?
  65. @anonymous-antimarxist

    “How “Dagger John” saved New York’s Irish,”
     
    City Journal is a staunchly neo-conservative source. That said, in its own way it's still a deeply Trotsky-ite non-race realist website but in a authoritarian fashion that appeals to foolish cuckservatives. Would/Does a "Dagger John" approach help 95 and above IQ, mostly mulatto, blacks??? Absolutely, at least to some extent. But to argue that a "Dagger John", if we could just fix the schools, bring back "Cultural Literacy" and school uniforms, KIPP charter schools for all, etc approach would help the left side of the black ghetto bell curve is foolish.

    Booker T Washington was famous for working with Julius Rosenwald, the Sears Roebuck executive and founder of the NAACP in building hundreds of schools through out the south.. But it was called the NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF COLORED PEOPLE", for a reason. Neither Booker T. Washington or Rosenwald were, "race does not exist", Boasian marxists. Once identified with his schools, Rosenwald welcomed the mostly mulatto "talented tenth" to come up north and work in Sears' vast network of catalog plants and supply chain factories on Chicago's westside just southeast of Austin along Homan Avenue. Unfortunately for Chicago the other 90% of southern blacks soon tagged along especially as cotton fields began to be mechanized.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booker_T._Washington

    The "Dagger John" story is sold as a solution by Neo-Cons for black low IQ, degeneracy and violence. Sorry but the 19th century immigrant Irish at their worse had a lot more to work with than today's ghetto blacks.

    "Dagger John" delusion is in many was similar to the Open Border argument that today's Mestizo illegal aliens are just so like yesterday's Italian immigrants.

    One more point about City-Journal.

    I admire Heather Mcdonald as far as she goes. But she knows exactly how far she can go towards race realism and not run afoul of the Neo-Con bigwigs who pay her bills.

    Heather Mcdonald is City-Journals replacement for the sociologist & criminologist James Q Wilson and not a completely bad one. But in his last years Wilson was revisiting heredity and its impact on crime and was coming very close to being an out right race realist.

    A return to legally approved segregation via freedom of association through restrictive covenants and yes, both positive and negative eugenic policies are way beyond what Heather Mcdonald and City-Journal are willing to openly discuss.

    And those are the only real solutions.

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  66. @eD
    "BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis."

    St. Louis is an interesting case.

    I agree with the point that Steve makes here and in other posts that a big cause, and probably the main cause, of the decline of these cities is rioting and attacks on non -African American by their African-American population, followed by White flight (but why did the Whites give up so easily)? And there were big riots in St. Louis! But if you look at the population numbers they under-cut Steve's theory.

    I've lived in St. Louis. The metropolitan area is easily the most racially polarized place I've lived in, and probably the most racially polarized of the top 25 US metro areas (here is one list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas, St. Louis as #20, Baltimore, its main competition, is at #21).

    I checked the population trends for St. Louis on Wikipedia, which is a good, easily digestible source for population and demographic numbers, especially after the Census Bureau went and screwed up their website. The article notes that St. Louis lost 62.7% of its population since 1950, the highest number for any city with a population higher than 100,000.

    St. Louis reached peaked population in 1950, at 856,796. The population was 82% white then, and 18% black. St. Louis is one of those places where you are either White or Black, no other racial groupings. The 2010 census had the city's population at 319,294, and it is now estimated to be lower than that. It is now 43.9% White, 49.2% Black, with Hispanics at 3.5%, so immigration from Lain America doesn't seem to have played much of a part here.

    People in St. Louis like to point out that while the city itself has declined (and keep in mind the city boundaries were deliberately drawn to exclude places that would normally be considered to be part of "the city", the metropolitan area as a whole is going strong. With metropolitan area data there is some issue with how you define "metropolitan area", but Wikipedia reports a population of 1,681,281 in 1950, growing to 2,787,101, so fair enough. But keep in mind that the population of the United States as a whole more than doubled during this period (151 million to 307 million), so the 33% increase here is still under-performing. Wikipedia reports 76.9% of the metropolitan areas as White and 18% as black.

    Looking only at African-Americans, about 500,000 live in the metropolitan area, of which about 160,000 live in the city itself. The figure for the city itself is up slightly from the 154,000 Blacks who lived there in 1950. This doesn't under-cut anything Steve wrote, just more context. In percentage turns, the numbers for the proportion of the city in 1950, and the metro area in 2010 turn out to be exactly the same, at 18%.

    The population drop in the city of St. Louis began in the 1950s, with a 12.5% drop. There were bigger drops in the 1960s, at 17%, and 1970s, at 27%, then 12.5% or thereabouts each decade until the city's base population became small enough that you couldn't really get the big percentage drops. In terms of absolute numbers, the biggest drop, 159,000, was in the 1970s with drops of around 110,000 in the 1950s and 1960s.

    I wanted to check this against the 1960s riots in St. Louis, but couldn't find any information at all on Wikipedia, though they do discuss "suburbanization"and air pollution (people started fleeing the city when air pollution was cleared up). Well, its Wikipedia, so I reached for other information, and could only find this article from St. Louis Today: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/st-louis-area-largely-spared-by-civil-rights-era-rioting/article_b9a25f8d-efbf-5f4d-af88-173f543989fe.html. The article claims that there were no riots in St. Louis in the 1960s.

    Anyway, the point of this huge data drop is that the decline in St. Louis started in the 1950s, well before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, before any 1960s urban riots, the 1960s-70s crime wave, and may even have started before Brown vs. Board of Education (1954). It got worse in the 1970s, but was already well underway before you can bring in anything race related. Also, what is unique about St. Louis is not the population drop, which happened in all Northeastern and Midwestern cities, but there was no stabilization or recovery at all. Even the metro area doesn't look that hot when you compare it with national population trends. Note that St. Louis was not a one industry boomtown like Detroit.

    St. Louis is a big enough data point that I think it supports the racial stuff being important, but there being other things going on.

    “…the decline in St. Louis started in the 1950s, well before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, before any 1960s urban riots, the 1960s-70s crime wave, and may even have started before Brown vs. Board of Education (1954). It got worse in the 1970s, but was already well underway before you can bring in anything race related.”

    Yes and no. The decline started partly due to lack of housing in the city. Those who could move did so.

    But it was also race-related, not in overt ways like race riots but in subtler ways, like the judgment striking down restrictive covenants.

    This sheds some light on it.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruitt–Igoe

    N.B. I was born and raised in St. Louis County (Kirkwood, Crestwood and Manchester). With my church youth group, I helped clean up some areas of the Cochran and Vaughan housing projects in the city in the early 70′s. We were told not to walk the streets by ourselves even in broad daylight. I look back and wonder what the hell our church leaders were thinking. We weren’t even there to bear witness to our faith. We were cleaning up communal areas that the able-bodied black residents couldn’t be bothered to clean. Instead they stood around and critiqued our efforts.

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    • Replies: @International Jew
    St Louis' relative decline has been even more impressive than its absolute decline. St Louis was the US's fourth biggest city in 1904 (the year of St Louis' World's Fair which, significantly, is still a big deal there). Today St Louis is #61. (Only five spots ahead of Anchorage, Alaska!)
  67. @ScarletNumber
    Newark lost 38% of its population from 1930 to 2000. This was accelerated by the riots of 1967, which just had its 50th anniversary. Newark used to be Italian and Jewish, with its most famous natives being Frankie Valli, Chris Christie, Philip Roth, Moe Berg and Ed Koch. Irishman William Brennan also grew up in Newark.

    I’d like to see somebody in the new dissident/samizdat media start collecting stories from those who lived in/through the race riots of 1965 and on.

    (In Philly the riots started while the ink on the “Civil Rights” Act was still wet.)

    (Actually, in Philly there were always riots by blacks.)

    (Actually……..oh, never mind.)

    The deriding of white ethnic cleansing as “white flight” has meant an automatic demonization of this history. The only people I ever knew who looked at it as an oral history phenomenon were radical sociology types who wanted it as evidence of how horribly racist the whites in question were.

    Admittedly I haven’t done a literature review on the topic. There may be more out there than I realize.

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  68. @eD
    "BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis."

    St. Louis is an interesting case.

    I agree with the point that Steve makes here and in other posts that a big cause, and probably the main cause, of the decline of these cities is rioting and attacks on non -African American by their African-American population, followed by White flight (but why did the Whites give up so easily)? And there were big riots in St. Louis! But if you look at the population numbers they under-cut Steve's theory.

    I've lived in St. Louis. The metropolitan area is easily the most racially polarized place I've lived in, and probably the most racially polarized of the top 25 US metro areas (here is one list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas, St. Louis as #20, Baltimore, its main competition, is at #21).

    I checked the population trends for St. Louis on Wikipedia, which is a good, easily digestible source for population and demographic numbers, especially after the Census Bureau went and screwed up their website. The article notes that St. Louis lost 62.7% of its population since 1950, the highest number for any city with a population higher than 100,000.

    St. Louis reached peaked population in 1950, at 856,796. The population was 82% white then, and 18% black. St. Louis is one of those places where you are either White or Black, no other racial groupings. The 2010 census had the city's population at 319,294, and it is now estimated to be lower than that. It is now 43.9% White, 49.2% Black, with Hispanics at 3.5%, so immigration from Lain America doesn't seem to have played much of a part here.

    People in St. Louis like to point out that while the city itself has declined (and keep in mind the city boundaries were deliberately drawn to exclude places that would normally be considered to be part of "the city", the metropolitan area as a whole is going strong. With metropolitan area data there is some issue with how you define "metropolitan area", but Wikipedia reports a population of 1,681,281 in 1950, growing to 2,787,101, so fair enough. But keep in mind that the population of the United States as a whole more than doubled during this period (151 million to 307 million), so the 33% increase here is still under-performing. Wikipedia reports 76.9% of the metropolitan areas as White and 18% as black.

    Looking only at African-Americans, about 500,000 live in the metropolitan area, of which about 160,000 live in the city itself. The figure for the city itself is up slightly from the 154,000 Blacks who lived there in 1950. This doesn't under-cut anything Steve wrote, just more context. In percentage turns, the numbers for the proportion of the city in 1950, and the metro area in 2010 turn out to be exactly the same, at 18%.

    The population drop in the city of St. Louis began in the 1950s, with a 12.5% drop. There were bigger drops in the 1960s, at 17%, and 1970s, at 27%, then 12.5% or thereabouts each decade until the city's base population became small enough that you couldn't really get the big percentage drops. In terms of absolute numbers, the biggest drop, 159,000, was in the 1970s with drops of around 110,000 in the 1950s and 1960s.

    I wanted to check this against the 1960s riots in St. Louis, but couldn't find any information at all on Wikipedia, though they do discuss "suburbanization"and air pollution (people started fleeing the city when air pollution was cleared up). Well, its Wikipedia, so I reached for other information, and could only find this article from St. Louis Today: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/st-louis-area-largely-spared-by-civil-rights-era-rioting/article_b9a25f8d-efbf-5f4d-af88-173f543989fe.html. The article claims that there were no riots in St. Louis in the 1960s.

    Anyway, the point of this huge data drop is that the decline in St. Louis started in the 1950s, well before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, before any 1960s urban riots, the 1960s-70s crime wave, and may even have started before Brown vs. Board of Education (1954). It got worse in the 1970s, but was already well underway before you can bring in anything race related. Also, what is unique about St. Louis is not the population drop, which happened in all Northeastern and Midwestern cities, but there was no stabilization or recovery at all. Even the metro area doesn't look that hot when you compare it with national population trends. Note that St. Louis was not a one industry boomtown like Detroit.

    St. Louis is a big enough data point that I think it supports the racial stuff being important, but there being other things going on.

    I agree with the point that Steve makes here and in other posts that a big cause, and probably the main cause, of the decline of these cities is rioting and attacks on non -African American by their African-American population, followed by White flight (but why did the Whites give up so easily)?

    Why did they give up so easily? Because the central government threatened to kill them if they didn’t.

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  69. I look back and wonder what the hell our church leaders were thinking. We weren’t even there to bear witness to our faith. We were cleaning up communal areas that the able-bodied black residents couldn’t be bothered to clean. Instead they stood around and critiqued our efforts.

    This appears to be the status quo for modern churchian leadership, regardless of denomination. Habitat for Humanity at least has a better model of charity.

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    • Replies: @Grumpy
    Habitat for Humanity seems like an effective humanitarian charity until you consider that the U.S. housing "shortage" is the result of immigration policies that raise the cost of housing for everyone. Building can't keep up with demand by design. Habitat's main purpose, arguably, is to make volunteers feel good about themselves (which is not nothing).
    , @Kylie
    Care to take a guess as to what denomination I was raised in?
  70. White politicians in the Democrat Party do not want to live around Blacks. Blacks in Philadelphia have been rioting recently. This riot is a tutorial of sorts, because it involved younger Blacks who are just learning the joy of jumping on police cars and throwing bottles.

    Germantown section of Philadelphia Black riot:

    Hillary Clinton does not want to live around Blacks. Hillary Clinton chose to live in mostly White Chappaqua, New York. Obama does not want to live around Blacks. Obama chose to live in a mostly White part of Washington DC.

    The Democrat Party is comprised of Blacks, Jews, Latinos, Asians, White government workers and White upper middle class money-grubbers. The Democrat Party is the Black political party. The Democrat Party is responsible for Black crime and Black riots.

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  71. Daddy was a cop
    On the East Side of Chicago.
    Back in the U.S.A.
    Back in the bad old days.

    Und so weiter.

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  72. @The Only Catholic Unionist
    Speaking of urban discontents, you know there has to be a reason the MFM is running with the shooting in Minnesota. "Name not being released..." (???) What's the early betting ... some sort of "Jonah from Tonga"-type Polynesian, or the radicalized daughter of Muslim "refugee" to Australia?

    The officer who did the shooting has been named by the Minneapolis Star Tribune. He is Mohamed Noor, said to be the first Somalian officer on the MPD. All the discussion so far, however, has been focused on the fact that none of the officers on the scene had their body-cams turned on.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    The white victim was complaining about intruders, and I bet they were Somalis, and the Somali cop was trying to protect them.
    , @Peripatetic commenter
    Are we going to see any noise from WLM?

    Given that the cop was in the car when he shot her seems like he just likes shooting white women.
    , @Anonymous
    http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/shooting-death-of-justine-damond-in-minneapolis-sparks-calls-for-federal-investigation/news-story/2d2486888c0c6d8fa1ca3d8f4bc7df91

    It's pretty funny to see news.com.au's take on this. On the one hand they want to blame it on America's gun culture and trigger-happy police (BLM yo!). On the other hand, they can't help but report that it was a police officer with only two years experience on the force from Somalia, (a skinny in Aussie parlance,) that shot her. They tend to take the Australian side in reporting when events happen overseas, even when obviously criminals and deserve what's happening to them. (E.g. Schapelle Corby - the MSM here are strangely bigoted like that. I guess the US media did the same with Michael Fay, if you remember him.) So there is a level of truth in reporting so far that is unlike how they normally are (e.g. only showing 12 year old Trayvon). In this case they are conflicted.

    http://www.rsdb.org/race/somalians

    There is a new article about Trump every day on news.com.au and about 99/100 articles are anti-Trump. And maybe that 1/100 article was when he bombed Syria. Murdoch's news.com.au is a smidgen to the right of Huffpo, but the commentors are mostly /ourguys.
  73. @Kylie
    "...the decline in St. Louis started in the 1950s, well before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, before any 1960s urban riots, the 1960s-70s crime wave, and may even have started before Brown vs. Board of Education (1954). It got worse in the 1970s, but was already well underway before you can bring in anything race related."

    Yes and no. The decline started partly due to lack of housing in the city. Those who could move did so.

    But it was also race-related, not in overt ways like race riots but in subtler ways, like the judgment striking down restrictive covenants.

    This sheds some light on it.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruitt–Igoe

    N.B. I was born and raised in St. Louis County (Kirkwood, Crestwood and Manchester). With my church youth group, I helped clean up some areas of the Cochran and Vaughan housing projects in the city in the early 70's. We were told not to walk the streets by ourselves even in broad daylight. I look back and wonder what the hell our church leaders were thinking. We weren't even there to bear witness to our faith. We were cleaning up communal areas that the able-bodied black residents couldn't be bothered to clean. Instead they stood around and critiqued our efforts.

    St Louis’ relative decline has been even more impressive than its absolute decline. St Louis was the US’s fourth biggest city in 1904 (the year of St Louis’ World’s Fair which, significantly, is still a big deal there). Today St Louis is #61. (Only five spots ahead of Anchorage, Alaska!)

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  74. On a brief drive through Rochester NY last year we saw beautiful large well-maintained Victorian houses in an all-black neighborhood. Our destination was an all-white suburb with ticky tack post-war Cape Cods and ranch houses.

    From Wikipedia : “The population reached 62,386 in 1870, 162,608 in 1900 and 295,750 in 1920. By 1950, the population had reached a high of 332,488. In 1950, the Census Bureau reported Rochester’s population as 97.6% white and 2.3% black.[18] With industrial restructuring in the later 20th century, and the decline of industry and jobs in the area, by 2010, the city’s population had declined to 210,565, although the metropolitan area was considerably larger.”

    The present population is roughly 40% white 40% black 20% other, and down 40% from its peak. Violent crime 3.5x average for cities over 100,000. .Many major employers defunct (Kodak) or departed.

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  75. @anonymous
    According to Wiki, the population of Chicago started to fall commencing with the 1960 census and with the exception of the 2000 census has been dropping ever since. As such it is coming perilously close to Detroit in terms of population loss.

    And in other news, just heard that some developers are training their eyes on the Mott Haven section of the South Bronx for possible gentrification. The Element is unhappy at the prospect, of course, but who cares? They'll be given the usual Section 8 vouchers and will disperse into Westchester County and parts north.

    “And in other news, just heard that some developers are training their eyes on the Mott Haven section of the South Bronx for possible gentrification.”

    I suspect the process of gentrification in NYC is going to stall out for a while. After functioning pretty well for a few decades, the subway system has been experiencing one major crisis after another (and the commuter trains are even worse). All these transportation issues are making city living less and less attractive.

    Peter

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  76. FWIW, Chicago has had no problem attracting top tier corporate HQs, big like Boeing and small like Great Wolf Resort. Sure that might be because Chicago is pound for pound the cheapest hub city, but so what. It will be nice to see if the pension crisis and tax increases change things.

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    • Replies: @bartok

    Chicago has had no problem attracting top tier corporate HQs
     
    The train from the North Shore (for wealthy boomers) and the Brown/Red L train from the North Side (for younger people) to downtown are reasonably civilized. Lake Shore Drive flows freely at all hours.

    NYC commutes and Bay Area commutes are more disgusting these days.
  77. anonymous says: • Website     Show CommentNext New Comment

    OT: A 40-year-old white Australian woman who family members said called 911 to report a possible assault behind her south Minneapolis home Saturday night was fatally shot by Minneapolis’s first Somali police officer, Mohamed Noor.

    Noor, 31, joined the department in March 2015 as the first Somali police officer to patrol the 5th Precinct in southwest Minneapolis, according to a city newsletter.

    http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/434975623.html

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  78. OT:

    There has been another police shooting in Minnesota, but this time the victim is a 40-year-old white Australian woman.

    WCCO-TV identified the officer who shot Damond as Mohammed Noor, who joined the department in 2015…

    The Star Tribune, citing three people with knowledge of the shooting, said Damond had been the one to call 911 about a possible assault in the alley behind her house.

    The three people, who were not identified by the newspaper, said two officers pulled into the alley in a single squad car. Damond, wearing pajamas, stood at the driver’s side door and talked to the driver. The newspaper’s sources said the officer in the passenger seat shot Damond through the driver’s side door.

    http://www.twincities.com/2017/07/16/woman-dead-after-officer-involved-shooting-in-minneapolis/

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  79. “I estimate that each black arrival was associated with 2.7 white departures. The median city, which had 200,000 white residents, absorbed 19,000 black migrants over this period. My estimates imply that these arrivals prompted the departure of 52,000 white residents, resulting in a 17% net decline in the urban population.”

    SOURCE: Leah Platt Boustan, “Was Postwar Suburbanization White Flight? Evidence from the Black Migration”

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  80. @charles w abbott
    John McWhorter's review of Amy Wax's book is worth pondering.

    The hypothesis is that race based slavery, and then Jim Crow after it, destroyed human capital for many Black Americans.

    Government programs can't do much to build it back up. Not can most external interventions. Pity and compassion from well meaning strangers doesn't do much, either. Giving things to people is not enough, and sometimes deepens the problem.

    Success comes largely from ones own efforts. Making something of oneself is a self-help exercise. So argued Booker T. Washington.

    Meanwhile, the temptations are many.

    Some of the Irish Catholic leadership (Dagger John) concluded the same thing in the 19th century. See the article "How "Dagger John" saved New York's Irish," online at city-journal.org



    https://newrepublic.com/article/76403/what-hope

    “The hypothesis is that race based slavery, and then Jim Crow after it, destroyed human capital for many Black Americans.”

    And that’s new? So it’s all whitey’s fault… No, there’s nothing new there. Actually that very ancient hypothesis is the villain: When you tell people all their problems are the fault of someone else, you destroy any incentive for them to improve themselves. Welfare and drugs just finished them off. Trying to spark rage that would fuel a black revolutionary militancy, the Left relentlessly has crippled those it would so presentationally “help”.

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  81. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Newark lost 38% of its population from 1930 to 2000. This was accelerated by the riots of 1967, which just had its 50th anniversary. Newark used to be Italian and Jewish, with its most famous natives being Frankie Valli, Chris Christie, Philip Roth, Moe Berg and Ed Koch. Irishman William Brennan also grew up in Newark.
     
    I used to have to visit Newark in the early 2000s for work. There was a fairly stark contrast between the Ironbound area populated by Portuguese and Brazilians and the black area, which was more or less the rest of the City.

    I used to visit the Ironbound a lot in the 1980s. It was then, as it is now, a lively, clean, safe, well-ordered urban community. Even poor cities don’t have to go to hell.

    Yes Ironbound is largely white: Portuguese predominate but their are enough other white ethnics too (Italians, German, Slav, Irish). And the Brazilians, who are largely white, but with a fair mix of mulatto and caboclo, seamlessly fit in. Interesting neighborhood.

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  82. @Wency
    While I can't really speak for the last 5 years or so, the last 30 years have been good to downtown Atlanta (which represents a fairly small slice of Atlanta metro). Back during the height of the 80s-90s crack epidemic, attending a Braves night game at Fulton County Stadium felt like a suicide pact. Downtown Atlanta is still not a place I want to be, especially at night, but it seems to have cleaned up a good deal.

    Atlanta is basically the best-case outcome for a majority-black city, since a true black middle class has formed. I notice that companies there hire a lot of blacks (especially black women) in receptionist/greeting/PR types of positions, and many of them seem perfectly agreeable, welcoming, and articulate, to a degree that would be considered good by the standards of white workers -- they're not just AA beneficiaries!

    Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be scalable. Atlanta is able to sustain this black middle class by importing these workers from much of the South and even further afield.

    I notice that companies there hire a lot of blacks (especially black women) in receptionist/greeting/PR types of positions … they’re not just AA beneficiaries!

    These private-sector Atlanta workers would seem to be quite overpaid, at ~$25-30k per year plus benefits. I suspect that it is self-imposed AA, either on purpose or by accident. (Once hired, cannot be fired). In my experience, Jewish business owners express their noblesse oblige by hiring blacks in the Oak Park % ranges (10-15%). Yes, there are Jews in the South.

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    Criminy, Mister Scrooge, paying a bloke $25,000.00 to run the front office, 'tis robbery an' 'umbug, 'tis. 'Twere be'er 'e be paid two shillings and sixpence, an' be glad o' it, 'e ort. $25,000.00 indeed! Why, 'tis almost enough to rent a room in Atlanta to hisself, an' leave off bunkin' w' 'is own like, enti'l'd cur!

    Let me guess: You are a boomer, a smug douche who's never worried about money in his life, or both?

  83. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Camlost
    Atlanta works much better for blacks because it's very low density living. Even the poorest blacks here still often live in single family homes in cul-de-sacs. Almost no public housing in the 20-country Metro Atlanta area and no tall tenement buildings.

    It saves blacks from themselves.

    There are plenty of run-down black suburbs and communities with no high-rises.

    It could be Atlanta’s race relations evolved under realism.

    In contrast, idealism defined northern policy, and too much of it ran against reality.

    Also, there was greater white solidarity in the South, and less ‘white guilt’. So, blacks had to learn to negotiate.

    In the North, where the hubris of idealism came to rule, blacks didn’t negotiate. They just demanded.

    It’s like Hong Kong and Mao’s China.

    Hong Kong negotiated with British Imperialists. It was unfair, but the fact was Brits had much to teach the Chinese if they were willing to learn and be patient.
    In Mao’s China, idealism ran riot and there were purity spiral after purity spiral. So CLM or Chinese Lives Matter led to Great Leap and Cultural Revolution that actually destroyed many more Chinese.

    The fact is blacks have much to learn from whites even if American History was unfair. Atlanta didn’t forget this, but the North did.

    But as Confederate monuments come down and Southern Pride is also destroyed, maybe things will change.

    PS. One positive thing about Americanism is Idealistic Positivism. When used well, it can be activist and progressive. But used badly, it can lead to hubris, nastiness, hostility, self-righteousness, etc.

    There was more of this positivism in the North, and so it advanced faster than the more conservative patrician south. But when this idealism in the North turned neo-puritanical and stupid, it did more harm, especially with blacks and 60s radicals.

    It’s like blacks from Latin American nations are less aggressive and less self-righteous. They are more accepting of things. In one way, this meant more passivity and lack of progress. But it also meant less hubris in the manner of Al Sharpton and other fools. Latin blacks learned to negotiate.

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  84. @George
    FWIW, Chicago has had no problem attracting top tier corporate HQs, big like Boeing and small like Great Wolf Resort. Sure that might be because Chicago is pound for pound the cheapest hub city, but so what. It will be nice to see if the pension crisis and tax increases change things.

    Chicago has had no problem attracting top tier corporate HQs

    The train from the North Shore (for wealthy boomers) and the Brown/Red L train from the North Side (for younger people) to downtown are reasonably civilized. Lake Shore Drive flows freely at all hours.

    NYC commutes and Bay Area commutes are more disgusting these days.

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  85. @Wency
    While I can't really speak for the last 5 years or so, the last 30 years have been good to downtown Atlanta (which represents a fairly small slice of Atlanta metro). Back during the height of the 80s-90s crack epidemic, attending a Braves night game at Fulton County Stadium felt like a suicide pact. Downtown Atlanta is still not a place I want to be, especially at night, but it seems to have cleaned up a good deal.

    Atlanta is basically the best-case outcome for a majority-black city, since a true black middle class has formed. I notice that companies there hire a lot of blacks (especially black women) in receptionist/greeting/PR types of positions, and many of them seem perfectly agreeable, welcoming, and articulate, to a degree that would be considered good by the standards of white workers -- they're not just AA beneficiaries!

    Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to be scalable. Atlanta is able to sustain this black middle class by importing these workers from much of the South and even further afield.

    “Atlanta is basically the best-case outcome for a majority-black city, since a true black middle class has formed.”

    I’m curious about where these middle class blacks send their kids to school. What are the racial percentages and school performance? Anything above, say, 30% black sane whites flee. Especially, middle and high.

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  86. @AM

    I look back and wonder what the hell our church leaders were thinking. We weren’t even there to bear witness to our faith. We were cleaning up communal areas that the able-bodied black residents couldn’t be bothered to clean. Instead they stood around and critiqued our efforts.
     
    This appears to be the status quo for modern churchian leadership, regardless of denomination. Habitat for Humanity at least has a better model of charity.

    Habitat for Humanity seems like an effective humanitarian charity until you consider that the U.S. housing “shortage” is the result of immigration policies that raise the cost of housing for everyone. Building can’t keep up with demand by design. Habitat’s main purpose, arguably, is to make volunteers feel good about themselves (which is not nothing).

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    • Replies: @AM

    Habitat’s main purpose, arguably, is to make volunteers feel good about themselves (which is not nothing).
     
    In the US, I agree. It's bizarre thing, really. I suspect it works better in other less industrialized places. The model of it, that requires recipients to work before they receive something is one that most charities need to consider adopting. If you want to send kids running for the exits from Christianity or even community service work, make sure they're picking up after people quite capable of doing it themselves.
  87. @snorlax

    They were an early incarnation of the young white guy urge, now associated with the Ramones, to play faster.
     
    Also Mozart.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWYmUZTYE78

    More like Lang Lang

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  88. Off topic, sort of. Typical summer weekend in Philly with a dozen or so shootings, 5 murders, and a flash-mob of 500 “teens” throwing bottles at the police in Germantown. The local NAACP is fighting re-appointment of Lynne Abraham (a white (somewhat) law and order Democrat and former DA) because the most recent one (a diverse hire named Seth Williams) was recently indicted for corruption charges and lost the job, so we essentially have no D.A. currently. The NAACP called Abraham a “menace” who specifically targeted Blacks or some such. Oh, it gets better, the Democrat nomination for our next D.A. (((Larry Krasner))) is a Black Lives Matter Soros plant and radical Leftist who believes that the Police are the problem and blacks are overcharged with crimes they didn’t do. Should get real interesting around here.

    http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/city/philly-naacp-vows-to-block-lynne-abraham-from-becoming-interim-da-20170715.html

    Flash mob story:

    http://6abc.com/news/teen-mob-targets-police-in-germantown/2225560/

    Believe it or not they didn’t disable the comments for the flash mob story, truly a rarity. There’s lots of doozies in there including this one which was up-voted lots.

    “A Single Parent Sub-Culture raised on anti white animosity and envy. Triggered by their racist hatred and a righteous indignation instilled and encouraged by a Leftist Hollywood and a Public School program of Victimist Propaganda.

    Empowered by Liberals and their Entitlement Mentality. Protected by the National News Media, Political Correctness and a corrupt racist former DOJ under Eric ‘My People’ Holder and Barack ‘If I Had a Son’ Obama.

    Forgiven by an endless list of Affirmative Excuses and Lowered Expectations. Sanitized and Glorified beyond recognition by a fawning SJW media on TV, on the Movie screen, and in Commercials, as innocent, morally and intellectually superior, righteous paragons of humanity.

    Liberals and their media having dumbed down their education, inflated their egos, encouraged their feelings of victimization, and enraged their senses, created a youth culture of stupid, self-important, angry, uncontrollable brats.”

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    • Replies: @Kylie
    The up-voted comment could have been edited down to a three letter acronym.
  89. My parents were both from that neighborhood. We lived there until 1968 when we moved 20 miles west to the suburbs.

    My brother, who lived in Oak Park for many years, decided to drive though the old neighborhood a few years ago just to see what it was like. A cop pulled him over and advised him to point his car west and leave the area ASAP.

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  90. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Ximenes
    The officer who did the shooting has been named by the Minneapolis Star Tribune. He is Mohamed Noor, said to be the first Somalian officer on the MPD. All the discussion so far, however, has been focused on the fact that none of the officers on the scene had their body-cams turned on.

    The white victim was complaining about intruders, and I bet they were Somalis, and the Somali cop was trying to protect them.

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  91. @Calvin X Hobbes

    Speaking of urban discontents, you know there has to be a reason the MFM is running with the shooting in Minnesota. “Name not being released…”
     
    http://kstp.com/news/mohamed-noor-officer-involved-shooting-justine-diamond-fatal-minneapolis-shooting/4544324/?cat=1

    "Multiple sources have confirmed to KSTP Monday morning that the identity of the Minneapolis police officer who shot and killed a woman Saturday in southwest Minneapolis is Mohamed Noor."
    ...
    "Noor is the first Somali-American police officer in the 5th Precinct. He has a degree is business administration and economics from Augsburg College."

    Much more information at http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4703892/Police-officer-shot-Justine-Damond-identified.html

    Why have body cams if you are going to leave them off?

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  92. @Autochthon
    Ever since the abrogation of freedom of association, relations between Negroes and Europeans has been one long, painfully boring Tom & Jerry short. Everyone knows damn good and well exactly what is going on, the characters' goals and actions are predictable...the whole thing is just pointless nonsense. In fifty years they'll be back to re-infest Brooklyn.

    Ever since the abrogation of freedom of association, relations between Negroes and Europeans has been one long, painfully boring Tom & Jerry short.

    Exactly. Excellent point.

    The end of freedom of association–which would appall the founders–has put the gun to the head of whites. The basic reality is white people create nice stuff. They create prosperity, order, rule-of-law. And other people want it. But now whites–at least white gentiles–are just not allowed to have their own stuff. Not country clubs, not schools, not universities, not neighborhoods, not nations.

    What we’ve seen is the ideological triumph of the Jewish ideology of (what I call) minoritarianism. Minorities are good and can have their own stuff. But majorities are bad–must be watched carefully for pitchforkism–and can not be allowed to have their own stuff. (Ergo Jewish country clubs still exist, are right smack dab in everyone’s face in New York, DC, LA, with prominent members … and are unworthy of comment. But white-gentile clubs are bastions of racism that must be “opened up” and aired out.)

    Whites can still protect themselves–somewhat–with *price*. But that’s pretty much the only way for them. So rich or professional whites can isolate and insolate and sort of make do. (They increasingly have to live with Asians, but their world isn’t collapsing). But middle class and working class whites are just screwed. They are simply no longer allowed to have their own stuff. And so–because they can’t afford isolation by price–are constantly having their neighborhoods, schools and nations overrun.

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    • Replies: @Catholic Philly Prole
    "Whites can still protect themselves–somewhat–with *price*". Yes they can somewhat. But in the process we have to leave our native towns and cities and the communities that we built are scattered in the process. I don't want to live solely around the types of whites who can afford to live in wealthy areas, I'm not a yuppie. I am a prole townie that is very rooted in my neighborhood. The problem is there are few other choices to protect your family from mudsharking and emulation of hip-hop "culture". There are very few truly middle-class 90+% white places in the Philly area anymore. I'm sure that other big cities have the same problem. One other thing, my family has been in our neighborhood for 300 years and I feel a true sense of identity in that we truly built this place. Shame that we have to give OUR Communities and essentially our roots and culture away avoid the multi-cultural hordes but it is what it is.
    , @AM

    Whites can still protect themselves–somewhat–with *price*. But that’s pretty much the only way for them... But middle class and working class whites are just screwed. They are simply no longer allowed to have their own stuff.
     
    There is one more way. Geography. The US in particular is descended from settlers. If people go rural, generally speaking they will isolate themselves from blacks, depending on the part of the country they move to.

    Even before I found the alt-right, I found it remarkable that American urban blacks seemingly were like plants. They're surrounded by urban decay and yet they just sit there. Welfare is a part of that, but I suspect it's somewhat in the African nature not to explore or move on.

    Whites in contrast look far more footloose and fancy free.
    , @Anonym
    It's not minoritarianism, it's anti-whitism. There is one rule for non-whites and another rule for whites, and it functions the same irrespective of majority status of whites or minority status of non-whites. On a global scale, whites are now a <10% minority.

    Other than that, good post.
  93. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @charles w abbott
    John McWhorter's review of Amy Wax's book is worth pondering.

    The hypothesis is that race based slavery, and then Jim Crow after it, destroyed human capital for many Black Americans.

    Government programs can't do much to build it back up. Not can most external interventions. Pity and compassion from well meaning strangers doesn't do much, either. Giving things to people is not enough, and sometimes deepens the problem.

    Success comes largely from ones own efforts. Making something of oneself is a self-help exercise. So argued Booker T. Washington.

    Meanwhile, the temptations are many.

    Some of the Irish Catholic leadership (Dagger John) concluded the same thing in the 19th century. See the article "How "Dagger John" saved New York's Irish," online at city-journal.org



    https://newrepublic.com/article/76403/what-hope

    If you can’t rebuild human capital 150 years after slavery ended, then there isn’t anything to work with.

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    • Replies: @bartok

    If you can’t rebuild human capital 150 years after slavery ended, then there isn’t anything to work with.
     
    The theory makes even less sense than that. If the human capital was destroyed by race-based slavery, which must include the slave ships, then logically McWhorter is positing the existence of human capital in 1700s-1800s Africa. It is to laugh.
  94. @Ximenes
    The officer who did the shooting has been named by the Minneapolis Star Tribune. He is Mohamed Noor, said to be the first Somalian officer on the MPD. All the discussion so far, however, has been focused on the fact that none of the officers on the scene had their body-cams turned on.

    Are we going to see any noise from WLM?

    Given that the cop was in the car when he shot her seems like he just likes shooting white women.

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  95. @George
    In other news from Chicago LBGTKKK

    Chicago Dyke March uses Neo-Nazi slur for Jews

    March organizers who expelled Jews use notorious KKK anti-Semitic slur, say they take joy in suffering of Zionists.

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/232534

    E Micheal Jones well researched anti-Catholic conspiracy theory:
    The Slaughter of Cities: Urban Renewal as Ethnic Cleansing

    Jones’ book is great. Very coherent narrative of what happened using primary sources -what the elite said they intended to do with white (Catholic) ethnics in their own words and then what they did…
    Amazing book

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  96. Steve asks: “This would seem like a really obvious question for academic social scientists to study: what happens to the trajectory of population chan[g]e when large numbers of blacks, whether in absolute or percentage terms, congregate in a municipality?”

    I’ve looked into this. The answer is that you really need to examine district or neighborhood effects, more than city-wide effects.

    Luckily enough, I’ve done an exercise much like this for St. Louis and Baltimore, and with visual aids. Crime, social dysfunction and abandoned housing proliferates:

    St. Louis: https://benkurtzblog.wordpress.com/2016/11/24/bad-habits-st-louis-edition/
    Baltimore: https://benkurtzblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/07/bad-habits/

    And in general: https://benkurtzblog.wordpress.com/2016/07/19/the-rabid-right-is-too-polite/

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  97. @Mike Zwick

    Just 8 miles west of the Loop, Austin was a suburban gem when it was annexed to the city of Chicago in 1899.
     
    Austin was annexed against the will of the residents who lived in the area. Austin was part of Cicero Township. From Wikipedia: "The heavily populated Austin area dominated town politics, but did not constitute a majority of voters. The Austin controlled township government allowed the Lake Street Elevated to extend into Oak Park. Outraged, the other residents of Cicero Township voted to allow Chicago to annex the Austin area in an 1899 referendum. The residents of Austin voted against the referendum." BTW, parts of Austin, such as Galewood and the Island are still white neighborhoods and are in relatively good shape.

    Galewood is not horrible but across Harlem is Elmwood Park,whose police do not suffer outsiders. I would never travel into The Island at night. Miss The Depot diner desperately.

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  98. I’ve read books and seen movies featured by Steve, but this is the first time I’ve downloaded tunes.

    I’m not old enough to remember night clubs for middle age people, but now I’m old enough to wish they would come back.

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  99. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    @StillCARealist

    http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-usc-doctor-20170717-htmlstory.html Right near Steve’s neighborhood. Looking forward to his commentary

    Thanks for this link! Very much akin to the RKelly story fudge report has had up.

    R Kelly and the USC eye doctor are wealthy and intelligent perps. These guys can skate as long as underage targets are avoided and they don’t use violence.

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  100. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @JerryC
    As you note yourself, the St Louis metro area has seen pretty much no post-1965 immigration. That alone should come pretty close to explaining the slow population growth relative to the national average.

    I think St Louis has the largest number of Bosniaks in America. But they are classified as white European so you might not pick them out in your analysis.

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  101. @Ivy
    So it wasn't the exit of the St. Louis Browns in '53 what triggered it?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_St._Louis_Browns

    “To this day, the Orioles make almost no mention of their past as the Browns.”

    Shabby.

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  102. @anonymous-antimarxist
    St Louis, as Paul Kersey over a SBPDL constantly reminds folks, was home to the infamous Shelley SCOTUS decision that struck down restrictive covenants in the late 1940s. That is probably what started White flight there long before the civil rights movement got rolling. Smart whites saw the writing on the wall.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelley_v._Kraemer

    As Steve is fond of reminding folks. The Black Plaque has not reach past Austin into Oak Park because the nice white folks there have come up with their own Wink Wink version of the old restrictive covenant, the one nice middle class black family per block strategy.

    A good question is what percentage of Oak Park is Jewish, observant or atheist and what role has that played in giving Oak Park its special status in the eyes of the courts???

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Oak+Park+illinois+jewish+population&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

    According to bestplaces.net, only 1.11% of Oak Park, Illinois is Jewish.

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    • Replies: @Flip
    Jews in Chicago live north and not west or south for the most part.
  103. I recently read the Studs Lonigan trilogy & although I wasn’t completely thrilled w/it’s plotting & pacing & Farrell’s laughable Communist propaganda towards the end, the book itself does a pretty good job of portraying the White Irish flight from the south side in the 1920′s of all things, and how even at that time the incoming of Blacks destroyed tough but livable neighborhoods. Even though Farrell was a life long Communist fellow traveler he still honestly portrayed the racial realities accurately.

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  104. @AnotherDad

    Ever since the abrogation of freedom of association, relations between Negroes and Europeans has been one long, painfully boring Tom & Jerry short.
     
    Exactly. Excellent point.

    The end of freedom of association--which would appall the founders--has put the gun to the head of whites. The basic reality is white people create nice stuff. They create prosperity, order, rule-of-law. And other people want it. But now whites--at least white gentiles--are just not allowed to have their own stuff. Not country clubs, not schools, not universities, not neighborhoods, not nations.

    What we've seen is the ideological triumph of the Jewish ideology of (what I call) minoritarianism. Minorities are good and can have their own stuff. But majorities are bad--must be watched carefully for pitchforkism--and can not be allowed to have their own stuff. (Ergo Jewish country clubs still exist, are right smack dab in everyone's face in New York, DC, LA, with prominent members ... and are unworthy of comment. But white-gentile clubs are bastions of racism that must be "opened up" and aired out.)

    Whites can still protect themselves--somewhat--with *price*. But that's pretty much the only way for them. So rich or professional whites can isolate and insolate and sort of make do. (They increasingly have to live with Asians, but their world isn't collapsing). But middle class and working class whites are just screwed. They are simply no longer allowed to have their own stuff. And so--because they can't afford isolation by price--are constantly having their neighborhoods, schools and nations overrun.

    “Whites can still protect themselves–somewhat–with *price*”. Yes they can somewhat. But in the process we have to leave our native towns and cities and the communities that we built are scattered in the process. I don’t want to live solely around the types of whites who can afford to live in wealthy areas, I’m not a yuppie. I am a prole townie that is very rooted in my neighborhood. The problem is there are few other choices to protect your family from mudsharking and emulation of hip-hop “culture”. There are very few truly middle-class 90+% white places in the Philly area anymore. I’m sure that other big cities have the same problem. One other thing, my family has been in our neighborhood for 300 years and I feel a true sense of identity in that we truly built this place. Shame that we have to give OUR Communities and essentially our roots and culture away avoid the multi-cultural hordes but it is what it is.

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    • Replies: @AM

    One other thing, my family has been in our neighborhood for 300 years and I feel a true sense of identity in that we truly built this place.
     
    I believe Steve has mentioned the hunkering down around the Philly area.

    . I don’t want to live solely around the types of whites who can afford to live in wealthy areas, I’m not a yuppie.
     
    We live in a higher end neighborhood, but in an middle class enclave of it. Generally speaking upper income whites don't make the best parents or involved community members. They throw money at their problems, instead of solving them.

    I'll take it over ghetto culture, but I'd rather be in an old fashioned solidly middle class neighborhood.
    , @Marty T
    Many parts of Bucks County are very white, even middle class areas.

    We must work to restore freedom of association. Won't be easy, but that must be the aim. Keep pressuring the GOP until they get on board. Fight for your hood as much as you can. Those Catholic ethnic Philly hoods were great places.
  105. @Grumpy
    Habitat for Humanity seems like an effective humanitarian charity until you consider that the U.S. housing "shortage" is the result of immigration policies that raise the cost of housing for everyone. Building can't keep up with demand by design. Habitat's main purpose, arguably, is to make volunteers feel good about themselves (which is not nothing).

    Habitat’s main purpose, arguably, is to make volunteers feel good about themselves (which is not nothing).

    In the US, I agree. It’s bizarre thing, really. I suspect it works better in other less industrialized places. The model of it, that requires recipients to work before they receive something is one that most charities need to consider adopting. If you want to send kids running for the exits from Christianity or even community service work, make sure they’re picking up after people quite capable of doing it themselves.

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  106. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Ximenes
    The officer who did the shooting has been named by the Minneapolis Star Tribune. He is Mohamed Noor, said to be the first Somalian officer on the MPD. All the discussion so far, however, has been focused on the fact that none of the officers on the scene had their body-cams turned on.

    http://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/shooting-death-of-justine-damond-in-minneapolis-sparks-calls-for-federal-investigation/news-story/2d2486888c0c6d8fa1ca3d8f4bc7df91

    It’s pretty funny to see news.com.au’s take on this. On the one hand they want to blame it on America’s gun culture and trigger-happy police (BLM yo!). On the other hand, they can’t help but report that it was a police officer with only two years experience on the force from Somalia, (a skinny in Aussie parlance,) that shot her. They tend to take the Australian side in reporting when events happen overseas, even when obviously criminals and deserve what’s happening to them. (E.g. Schapelle Corby – the MSM here are strangely bigoted like that. I guess the US media did the same with Michael Fay, if you remember him.) So there is a level of truth in reporting so far that is unlike how they normally are (e.g. only showing 12 year old Trayvon). In this case they are conflicted.

    http://www.rsdb.org/race/somalians

    There is a new article about Trump every day on news.com.au and about 99/100 articles are anti-Trump. And maybe that 1/100 article was when he bombed Syria. Murdoch’s news.com.au is a smidgen to the right of Huffpo, but the commentors are mostly /ourguys.

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  107. @AnotherDad

    Ever since the abrogation of freedom of association, relations between Negroes and Europeans has been one long, painfully boring Tom & Jerry short.
     
    Exactly. Excellent point.

    The end of freedom of association--which would appall the founders--has put the gun to the head of whites. The basic reality is white people create nice stuff. They create prosperity, order, rule-of-law. And other people want it. But now whites--at least white gentiles--are just not allowed to have their own stuff. Not country clubs, not schools, not universities, not neighborhoods, not nations.

    What we've seen is the ideological triumph of the Jewish ideology of (what I call) minoritarianism. Minorities are good and can have their own stuff. But majorities are bad--must be watched carefully for pitchforkism--and can not be allowed to have their own stuff. (Ergo Jewish country clubs still exist, are right smack dab in everyone's face in New York, DC, LA, with prominent members ... and are unworthy of comment. But white-gentile clubs are bastions of racism that must be "opened up" and aired out.)

    Whites can still protect themselves--somewhat--with *price*. But that's pretty much the only way for them. So rich or professional whites can isolate and insolate and sort of make do. (They increasingly have to live with Asians, but their world isn't collapsing). But middle class and working class whites are just screwed. They are simply no longer allowed to have their own stuff. And so--because they can't afford isolation by price--are constantly having their neighborhoods, schools and nations overrun.

    Whites can still protect themselves–somewhat–with *price*. But that’s pretty much the only way for them… But middle class and working class whites are just screwed. They are simply no longer allowed to have their own stuff.

    There is one more way. Geography. The US in particular is descended from settlers. If people go rural, generally speaking they will isolate themselves from blacks, depending on the part of the country they move to.

    Even before I found the alt-right, I found it remarkable that American urban blacks seemingly were like plants. They’re surrounded by urban decay and yet they just sit there. Welfare is a part of that, but I suspect it’s somewhat in the African nature not to explore or move on.

    Whites in contrast look far more footloose and fancy free.

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  108. @AnotherDad

    Ever since the abrogation of freedom of association, relations between Negroes and Europeans has been one long, painfully boring Tom & Jerry short.
     
    Exactly. Excellent point.

    The end of freedom of association--which would appall the founders--has put the gun to the head of whites. The basic reality is white people create nice stuff. They create prosperity, order, rule-of-law. And other people want it. But now whites--at least white gentiles--are just not allowed to have their own stuff. Not country clubs, not schools, not universities, not neighborhoods, not nations.

    What we've seen is the ideological triumph of the Jewish ideology of (what I call) minoritarianism. Minorities are good and can have their own stuff. But majorities are bad--must be watched carefully for pitchforkism--and can not be allowed to have their own stuff. (Ergo Jewish country clubs still exist, are right smack dab in everyone's face in New York, DC, LA, with prominent members ... and are unworthy of comment. But white-gentile clubs are bastions of racism that must be "opened up" and aired out.)

    Whites can still protect themselves--somewhat--with *price*. But that's pretty much the only way for them. So rich or professional whites can isolate and insolate and sort of make do. (They increasingly have to live with Asians, but their world isn't collapsing). But middle class and working class whites are just screwed. They are simply no longer allowed to have their own stuff. And so--because they can't afford isolation by price--are constantly having their neighborhoods, schools and nations overrun.

    It’s not minoritarianism, it’s anti-whitism. There is one rule for non-whites and another rule for whites, and it functions the same irrespective of majority status of whites or minority status of non-whites. On a global scale, whites are now a <10% minority.

    Other than that, good post.

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    • Replies: @Flip
    Of course that depends on who you consider white. Probably a lot of people in Latin America count, and probably some in the Middle East and maybe (but it is more of a stretch) some in India and Pakistan.
  109. @Catholic Philly Prole
    "Whites can still protect themselves–somewhat–with *price*". Yes they can somewhat. But in the process we have to leave our native towns and cities and the communities that we built are scattered in the process. I don't want to live solely around the types of whites who can afford to live in wealthy areas, I'm not a yuppie. I am a prole townie that is very rooted in my neighborhood. The problem is there are few other choices to protect your family from mudsharking and emulation of hip-hop "culture". There are very few truly middle-class 90+% white places in the Philly area anymore. I'm sure that other big cities have the same problem. One other thing, my family has been in our neighborhood for 300 years and I feel a true sense of identity in that we truly built this place. Shame that we have to give OUR Communities and essentially our roots and culture away avoid the multi-cultural hordes but it is what it is.

    One other thing, my family has been in our neighborhood for 300 years and I feel a true sense of identity in that we truly built this place.

    I believe Steve has mentioned the hunkering down around the Philly area.

    . I don’t want to live solely around the types of whites who can afford to live in wealthy areas, I’m not a yuppie.

    We live in a higher end neighborhood, but in an middle class enclave of it. Generally speaking upper income whites don’t make the best parents or involved community members. They throw money at their problems, instead of solving them.

    I’ll take it over ghetto culture, but I’d rather be in an old fashioned solidly middle class neighborhood.

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  110. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @G Pinfold
    Was Bud Freeman the father of Russ who played piano with Chet Baker. Wikipedia is not always forthcoming with who begat whom.
    The old man was born in Chicago in 1906, Russ in 26, and then Bud split for New York in 27. Anyone know?

    John Chilton (“Who’s Who of Jazz,” 1978) typically notes such relationships, but does not in his listing for Bud.

    Jazz enthusiasts seem few and far between here.

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  111. @Anon
    If you can't rebuild human capital 150 years after slavery ended, then there isn't anything to work with.

    If you can’t rebuild human capital 150 years after slavery ended, then there isn’t anything to work with.

    The theory makes even less sense than that. If the human capital was destroyed by race-based slavery, which must include the slave ships, then logically McWhorter is positing the existence of human capital in 1700s-1800s Africa. It is to laugh.

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  112. @snorlax

    They were an early incarnation of the young white guy urge, now associated with the Ramones, to play faster.
     
    Also Mozart.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWYmUZTYE78

    They were an early incarnation of the young white guy urge, now associated with the Ramones, to play faster.

    Also Mozart.

    …and bluegrass fiddlers:

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  113. I’ve asked this ten times but:

    Steve, have you read The Slaughter of Cities: Urban Renewel as Ethnic Cleansing by e Michael jones?

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  114. Atlanta shed quite a bit of its Worst public housing in the 90′s. Downtown is nicer than it was. The suburbs received many if the illegals and welfare cases, and have been destroyed by the dysfunction. I guess that’s a success for Atlanta.

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  115. @eD
    "BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis."

    St. Louis is an interesting case.

    I agree with the point that Steve makes here and in other posts that a big cause, and probably the main cause, of the decline of these cities is rioting and attacks on non -African American by their African-American population, followed by White flight (but why did the Whites give up so easily)? And there were big riots in St. Louis! But if you look at the population numbers they under-cut Steve's theory.

    I've lived in St. Louis. The metropolitan area is easily the most racially polarized place I've lived in, and probably the most racially polarized of the top 25 US metro areas (here is one list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas, St. Louis as #20, Baltimore, its main competition, is at #21).

    I checked the population trends for St. Louis on Wikipedia, which is a good, easily digestible source for population and demographic numbers, especially after the Census Bureau went and screwed up their website. The article notes that St. Louis lost 62.7% of its population since 1950, the highest number for any city with a population higher than 100,000.

    St. Louis reached peaked population in 1950, at 856,796. The population was 82% white then, and 18% black. St. Louis is one of those places where you are either White or Black, no other racial groupings. The 2010 census had the city's population at 319,294, and it is now estimated to be lower than that. It is now 43.9% White, 49.2% Black, with Hispanics at 3.5%, so immigration from Lain America doesn't seem to have played much of a part here.

    People in St. Louis like to point out that while the city itself has declined (and keep in mind the city boundaries were deliberately drawn to exclude places that would normally be considered to be part of "the city", the metropolitan area as a whole is going strong. With metropolitan area data there is some issue with how you define "metropolitan area", but Wikipedia reports a population of 1,681,281 in 1950, growing to 2,787,101, so fair enough. But keep in mind that the population of the United States as a whole more than doubled during this period (151 million to 307 million), so the 33% increase here is still under-performing. Wikipedia reports 76.9% of the metropolitan areas as White and 18% as black.

    Looking only at African-Americans, about 500,000 live in the metropolitan area, of which about 160,000 live in the city itself. The figure for the city itself is up slightly from the 154,000 Blacks who lived there in 1950. This doesn't under-cut anything Steve wrote, just more context. In percentage turns, the numbers for the proportion of the city in 1950, and the metro area in 2010 turn out to be exactly the same, at 18%.

    The population drop in the city of St. Louis began in the 1950s, with a 12.5% drop. There were bigger drops in the 1960s, at 17%, and 1970s, at 27%, then 12.5% or thereabouts each decade until the city's base population became small enough that you couldn't really get the big percentage drops. In terms of absolute numbers, the biggest drop, 159,000, was in the 1970s with drops of around 110,000 in the 1950s and 1960s.

    I wanted to check this against the 1960s riots in St. Louis, but couldn't find any information at all on Wikipedia, though they do discuss "suburbanization"and air pollution (people started fleeing the city when air pollution was cleared up). Well, its Wikipedia, so I reached for other information, and could only find this article from St. Louis Today: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/st-louis-area-largely-spared-by-civil-rights-era-rioting/article_b9a25f8d-efbf-5f4d-af88-173f543989fe.html. The article claims that there were no riots in St. Louis in the 1960s.

    Anyway, the point of this huge data drop is that the decline in St. Louis started in the 1950s, well before the 1964 Civil Rights Act, before any 1960s urban riots, the 1960s-70s crime wave, and may even have started before Brown vs. Board of Education (1954). It got worse in the 1970s, but was already well underway before you can bring in anything race related. Also, what is unique about St. Louis is not the population drop, which happened in all Northeastern and Midwestern cities, but there was no stabilization or recovery at all. Even the metro area doesn't look that hot when you compare it with national population trends. Note that St. Louis was not a one industry boomtown like Detroit.

    St. Louis is a big enough data point that I think it supports the racial stuff being important, but there being other things going on.

    “Why did the whites give up so easily?”

    Last I checked Eisenhower sent in the 101st Airborne to enforce martial fiat on segregation so maybe that’s why?

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    • Replies: @Hare Krishna
    There was resistance after that time. In Cleveland and Boston among other places.
  116. @AM

    One other thing, my family has been in our neighborhood for 300 years and I feel a true sense of identity in that we truly built this place.
     
    I believe Steve has mentioned the hunkering down around the Philly area.

    . I don’t want to live solely around the types of whites who can afford to live in wealthy areas, I’m not a yuppie.
     
    We live in a higher end neighborhood, but in an middle class enclave of it. Generally speaking upper income whites don't make the best parents or involved community members. They throw money at their problems, instead of solving them.

    I'll take it over ghetto culture, but I'd rather be in an old fashioned solidly middle class neighborhood.

    Yes, I would also take it over the ghetto culture

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  117. @Jack Hanson
    "Why did the whites give up so easily?"

    Last I checked Eisenhower sent in the 101st Airborne to enforce martial fiat on segregation so maybe that's why?

    There was resistance after that time. In Cleveland and Boston among other places.

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    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    Oh I understand that. I'm just amazed at the hubris of commenters who think the highest form of dissent is a pithy comment on a niche blog getting upset that whites in the 50s and 60s didn't do more to prevent integration in the face of Ike sending the cream of WWII's combat forces into states to enforce segregation.

    Maybe someone here can explain how that doesn't violate Posse Commitas but the majority of the links seem to be along the lines of "Because shut up, racist!"

    Remember, Johnson was totally ready to throttle the Moon Race so that a black astronaut would be the first one on the moon. This virtue signalling has been going on for decades among our leadership.

  118. @IHTG
    Uncomfortable thought: If we define the current elite liberal consensus as the ultimate manifestation of the metropolitan ethos, there's an argument to be made that unleashing blacks on the metropolises decades ago actually delayed the formation of that consensus. Imagine the United States as a Canada writ large. It'd be busing in the Mexicans instead of just turning a blind eye as they cross the border.

    Uncomfortable thought: If we define the current elite liberal consensus as the ultimate manifestation of the metropolitan ethos, there’s an argument to be made that unleashing blacks on the metropolises decades ago actually delayed the formation of that consensus.

    The formation of that consensus predated and caused the unleashing you mention.

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    • Replies: @IHTG
    1960s racial do-gooderism is ancestral to, but distinct from the open borders bugmanism of the current year. Also, I don't think it was elite liberals who made all of those blacks migrate to northern cities in the first place.
  119. @Anonym
    It's not minoritarianism, it's anti-whitism. There is one rule for non-whites and another rule for whites, and it functions the same irrespective of majority status of whites or minority status of non-whites. On a global scale, whites are now a <10% minority.

    Other than that, good post.

    Of course that depends on who you consider white. Probably a lot of people in Latin America count, and probably some in the Middle East and maybe (but it is more of a stretch) some in India and Pakistan.

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    • Replies: @Anonym
    I count the Italians, Germans and the like who have settled in South America as white. Those who have intermixed, not really. MENA, no, except Ashkenazi Jews in Israel. Certainly not Pakis nor Indians. AFAIAC, I have concentric loyalties and what matters to me is how things fare with North Western Europeans, and also how greater Europe fares. Further than that and it starts getting to be "We are the world..." type hippie BS.

    We don't even have a plurality. We are behind East Asians (Han Chinese alone have more people than we do), Indians, and probably already behind SSAs.
  120. @AM

    Whites can still protect themselves–somewhat–with *price*. But that’s pretty much the only way for them... But middle class and working class whites are just screwed. They are simply no longer allowed to have their own stuff.
     
    There is one more way. Geography. The US in particular is descended from settlers. If people go rural, generally speaking they will isolate themselves from blacks, depending on the part of the country they move to.

    Even before I found the alt-right, I found it remarkable that American urban blacks seemingly were like plants. They're surrounded by urban decay and yet they just sit there. Welfare is a part of that, but I suspect it's somewhat in the African nature not to explore or move on.

    Whites in contrast look far more footloose and fancy free.

    Real estate in Oregon and Idaho is a buy…

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  121. @phil
    According to bestplaces.net, only 1.11% of Oak Park, Illinois is Jewish.

    Jews in Chicago live north and not west or south for the most part.

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    • Replies: @PV van der Byl
    That is certainly true now but was not always the case.

    Referring to the North Lawndale neighborhood on Chicago's West Side, wikipedia reports(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Chicago):

    By the 1920s many of the Czechs were gone, and Jews became the majority ethnic group of the neighborhood after having left the crowded confines of the Maxwell Street ghetto. North Lawndale later became known as being the largest Jewish settlement in the City of Chicago, with 25% of the city's Jewish population.[4]

    From about 1918 to 1955, Jews, overwhelmingly of Russian and Eastern European origin, dominated the neighborhood, starting in North Lawndale and moving northward as they became more prosperous. In the 1950s, blacks migrated into the area from the South Side and from southern states. Unscrupulous real-estate dealers all but evacuated the white population by using blockbusting and scare tactics related to the change in ethnicity. In a span of about ten years, the white population of North Lawndale dropped from 99% to less than 9%, but the number of total residents increased.
     
    Lesson learned, they all headed north (Rogers Park and North Shore).
  122. @International Jew
    Those Victorians mentioned in the article still go for some $300k, according to Zillow.com. That's pretty dang good for the Midwest and spectacular for a black area. Furthermore, I can see on Google Streetview that those houses and their yards are pretty well maintained, with nary a chainlink fence in the front yard.

    BTW, the biggest demographic collapse, of a once-great city, might be St. Louis.

    I don’t like chain link fence and have none but the people that have it my suburban subdivision have for their dogs. We are pretty crime free here and not gated but some like dogs as guards. There are minorities in my area and county so what can I say about paranoid libs w dogs who move in?

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  123. @Hare Krishna
    There was resistance after that time. In Cleveland and Boston among other places.

    Oh I understand that. I’m just amazed at the hubris of commenters who think the highest form of dissent is a pithy comment on a niche blog getting upset that whites in the 50s and 60s didn’t do more to prevent integration in the face of Ike sending the cream of WWII’s combat forces into states to enforce segregation.

    Maybe someone here can explain how that doesn’t violate Posse Commitas but the majority of the links seem to be along the lines of “Because shut up, racist!”

    Remember, Johnson was totally ready to throttle the Moon Race so that a black astronaut would be the first one on the moon. This virtue signalling has been going on for decades among our leadership.

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  124. @Flip
    Of course that depends on who you consider white. Probably a lot of people in Latin America count, and probably some in the Middle East and maybe (but it is more of a stretch) some in India and Pakistan.

    I count the Italians, Germans and the like who have settled in South America as white. Those who have intermixed, not really. MENA, no, except Ashkenazi Jews in Israel. Certainly not Pakis nor Indians. AFAIAC, I have concentric loyalties and what matters to me is how things fare with North Western Europeans, and also how greater Europe fares. Further than that and it starts getting to be “We are the world…” type hippie BS.

    We don’t even have a plurality. We are behind East Asians (Han Chinese alone have more people than we do), Indians, and probably already behind SSAs.

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  125. @Ivy
    So it wasn't the exit of the St. Louis Browns in '53 what triggered it?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_St._Louis_Browns

    St. Louis had the best location in the country back when the best mode of transportation was the riverboat.

    There was probably a chance for St. Louis to stay a major transportation hub, but I think Chicago beat them to the postwar jet airport and then Dallas and then Denver piled on with bigger and better airports.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    It was an airline hub, and would have remained so if TWA stayed in business. The airport had built a new runway in the late 1990's on the west side that is basically a white elephant now. It must have been planned (and the money allocated) before the loss of TWA.

    Chicago is a hub for 2 major carriers - American and United.
    Denver is for United (and agreed a great big airport, with 6 long runways).
    Dallas is for American.

    Without being an airline hub or being in a major city (or a freight hub like Memphis, TN, or Louisville, KY) you can't be but so big.
    , @Art Deco
    Greater Chicago has 5x the population of Greater St. Louis. I don't think the latter was going to win any competitions for traffic.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    The rise of air and truck cargo (along with the absence of unions) shifted a lot of shipping, logistics, and manufacturing to the South.
  126. Yo what up with that picture? Is that real? The guy walking down the street looks like one of the cavemen from the Geico commercials.

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  127. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    In what I am sure is completely unrelated news, McDonalds is moving its corporate headquarters from Sailer’s other suburban Chicago obsession Oak Park to the Loop. Apparently, all of their desired employees want to live in downtown Chicago, these days days. Wonder why.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-surburban-firms-relocate-cities-20170716-story.html

    Since the future of McD’s is in replacing as many of their low wage workers with self-serve kiosks and robots as technology will allow, apparently they will need more hip young “digital” workers. Its pretty clear that Rahm Emmanuel’s American Carnage is working pretty well for at least some his constituents. I wonder how long Elysium will last though.

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    • Replies: @Flip
    So many people want to live on the north side and work downtown in Chicago these days, that companies with suburban campuses are at a big disadvantage in getting younger workers. No one wants to drive an hour and a half to Schaumburg when you could instead take the el downtown or walk to work, so you see companies moving back into the city. The city needs to make sure the black shootings don't spill over into the white areas as they are starting to do in St. Louis.
    , @anonymous
    McDonald's is moving its HQ from Oak Brook, Illinois, not Oak Park. You are mistaken.
  128. @eah
    I guess midnight basketball didn't work -- maybe start an hour earlier ie try 11pm basketball.

    Hahaaaa! It’s that kind of outside-the-box thinking that we need in city government. Why dontcha fill out an on-line app eah? (Make sure you don’t put “white guy” on there, or there’s not a damn thing we can do for ya … and make a few grammar mistakes… just a word to the wise.)

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  129. @Steve Sailer
    St. Louis had the best location in the country back when the best mode of transportation was the riverboat.

    There was probably a chance for St. Louis to stay a major transportation hub, but I think Chicago beat them to the postwar jet airport and then Dallas and then Denver piled on with bigger and better airports.

    It was an airline hub, and would have remained so if TWA stayed in business. The airport had built a new runway in the late 1990′s on the west side that is basically a white elephant now. It must have been planned (and the money allocated) before the loss of TWA.

    Chicago is a hub for 2 major carriers – American and United.
    Denver is for United (and agreed a great big airport, with 6 long runways).
    Dallas is for American.

    Without being an airline hub or being in a major city (or a freight hub like Memphis, TN, or Louisville, KY) you can’t be but so big.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Yes, now I remember, St. Louis got hit hard by TWA going out of business.
  130. @Achmed E. Newman
    It was an airline hub, and would have remained so if TWA stayed in business. The airport had built a new runway in the late 1990's on the west side that is basically a white elephant now. It must have been planned (and the money allocated) before the loss of TWA.

    Chicago is a hub for 2 major carriers - American and United.
    Denver is for United (and agreed a great big airport, with 6 long runways).
    Dallas is for American.

    Without being an airline hub or being in a major city (or a freight hub like Memphis, TN, or Louisville, KY) you can't be but so big.

    Yes, now I remember, St. Louis got hit hard by TWA going out of business.

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    • Replies: @prosa123
    American Airlines kept the St. Louis hub for a while after it acquired TWA, but eventually closed it because it was too close to the much larger hubs at Chicago and Dallas. American also de-hubbed Nashville and Raleigh, but both cities are doing fine. As is Portland, which used to be a Delta hub.
  131. @bartok

    I notice that companies there hire a lot of blacks (especially black women) in receptionist/greeting/PR types of positions ... they’re not just AA beneficiaries!
     
    These private-sector Atlanta workers would seem to be quite overpaid, at ~$25-30k per year plus benefits. I suspect that it is self-imposed AA, either on purpose or by accident. (Once hired, cannot be fired). In my experience, Jewish business owners express their noblesse oblige by hiring blacks in the Oak Park % ranges (10-15%). Yes, there are Jews in the South.

    Criminy, Mister Scrooge, paying a bloke $25,000.00 to run the front office, ’tis robbery an’ ‘umbug, ’tis. ‘Twere be’er ‘e be paid two shillings and sixpence, an’ be glad o’ it, ‘e ort. $25,000.00 indeed! Why, ’tis almost enough to rent a room in Atlanta to hisself, an’ leave off bunkin’ w’ ‘is own like, enti’l’d cur!

    Let me guess: You are a boomer, a smug douche who’s never worried about money in his life, or both?

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  132. @anon
    Why did housing bypass Northeastern and Upper Midwest Central Cities after WW 2? Consider the following:

    1. There was a housing boom in the 1920's, which had a number of similarities to the early 2000's boom. There were a lot of large, expensive houses built, none of which had modern wiring or heating and were impractical for middle income single families. Post WW 2, people didn't want to live in old houses and the notion of a 'gut rehab' was considered silly.

    2. This was followed by a decade of very modest new home construction during the 1930's. It was the depression.

    3. This was followed by WW 2/1940's when there was no new construction due to the transformation of the economy to War production. And there was an acute housing shortage. 1950's may have been peak 'Central City' because thats all that was available. The only fact that is less obvious is that it took at least a full decade post WW 2 get the US fully running on what is remembered as the post war boom. For example, the first skyscraper built in Chicago since the final 20's boom buildings (finished in the early 30's) was the Prudential Building https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Prudential_Plaza. in 1955.

    4. Housing Projects? A 'well meaning' idea gone bad.

    5. Urban problems. Cities had political machines, drove up costs, were hard or impossible to reform, and could be avoided by simply moving to a suburb. Once people had cars, there was no compelling reason to put up with costs and issues. Not to mention that older, city housing wasn't particularly car friendly. Among other things, central business districts became inconvenient for shopping and entertainment shifted toward television, etc.

    6. Centralization of banking and finance. Older, commercial cities -- Cincinnati, St. Louis, Philadelphia, and especially Baltimore as well as cities with ports tended to be regional financial centers. By the 1990's the long term move toward mergers, acquisitions, and scale had put local financial institutions out of Business. As an example, Nationsbank ... soon to become Bank of America, bought up both of Baltimore's large, local banks (Maryland National and Equitable) and the City's most prominent Investment Bank, Alex Brown, was bought out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex._Brown_%26_Sons. Roughly the same thing occurred with Insurance. Even Chicago faced something similar with banking and insurance, although it is less obvious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_One_Corporation

    7. The rustbelt. It's easy to see in retrospect. But US monetary policy (strong dollar) and favored the businesses on the coasts to the detriment of center. The US Auto industry was gutted with the Yen @ 300-150 per $US. US capital intensive industry paid market rates for capital while Asian Tigers used predatory, Neo mercantilistic industrial policies (subsidized interest rates) to target the US market. It is still going on -- and one reason is that the US doesn't have an export driven economy. Smaller countries needed exports to take advantage of economies of scale, but the US had a sufficiently large domestic market. The result being that importers (including or especially consumers) weren't inclined to pay up to support an export oriented economy.

    Why did New York turn around? Don't underestimate the advantages of financial concentration and centralization of banking and finance and the fact that NY is the Worlds financial center. Enough money and all sorts of things become easy.

    Two points: The reason cities didn't decline more quickly was because of the relative lack of development between 1930 and 1955. More interesting than the decline of St Louis is the extent to which Chicago is still relatively wealthy. If you look at Detroit, the city is relatively small and was essentially abandon by the late 1960's. Same with Newark, Gary Indiana, East St Louis and many others. The real question is why that didn't happen to Chicago, for example. An answer is that the South Side and Austin are still part of the City and get municipal services. Without that, they would have met their Darwinian death with East St Louis and Gary.

    Another is that the largest employers in central cities are government services. But outside of that, the largest businesses are medical. US healthcare centers are dug into central cities like Baltimore. Hopkins is the largest employer in Baltimore and has their own police force/security. Health care has risen from under 10% of GDP to 17% or so, making it the most successful business in the US over the post war period.

    Finally -- restricting European immigration had its points. But the need for labor beginning with putting the US on a war footing in the late 1930's and the lack of European migrants led to the massive migration of Southern blacks to Northern US Cities.

    A great deal to ponder in this history! Nice comment!

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  133. @Steve Sailer
    Yes, now I remember, St. Louis got hit hard by TWA going out of business.

    American Airlines kept the St. Louis hub for a while after it acquired TWA, but eventually closed it because it was too close to the much larger hubs at Chicago and Dallas. American also de-hubbed Nashville and Raleigh, but both cities are doing fine. As is Portland, which used to be a Delta hub.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Yes, Prosa, that acquisition caused the closing of STL as a hub. It was too close to the other hubs that American had, as you wrote, and just consolidation. It's very much the same as Memphis airport terminal becoming a ghost town (1/3 of it has been demolished already) due to the merger of Delta with Northwest. Why keep that hub, when Atlanta is not that far and is the big hub? As I wrote to Steve, Memphis, the airport (the airfield itself) will do to fine due to hundreds of FedEx flights daily.

    Cleveland airport is a ghost town after having been a major Continental hub - same thing - with the merger with United, why have this hub, when Chicago is the big one?

    Pittsburgh airport is a ghost town too, but even without any merger. About 12 years back or so, US Air decided that 2 hubs, 300 miles or so across the one state were not necessary.

    Nashville is busy due to Southwest, and Raleigh lost almost all the American airlines flying it had in the 1990's, but is now a Delta "focus city" and SW flies there a lot too.

  134. @anonymous-antimarxist
    St Louis, as Paul Kersey over a SBPDL constantly reminds folks, was home to the infamous Shelley SCOTUS decision that struck down restrictive covenants in the late 1940s. That is probably what started White flight there long before the civil rights movement got rolling. Smart whites saw the writing on the wall.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelley_v._Kraemer

    As Steve is fond of reminding folks. The Black Plaque has not reach past Austin into Oak Park because the nice white folks there have come up with their own Wink Wink version of the old restrictive covenant, the one nice middle class black family per block strategy.

    A good question is what percentage of Oak Park is Jewish, observant or atheist and what role has that played in giving Oak Park its special status in the eyes of the courts???

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Oak+Park+illinois+jewish+population&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

    South Shore was a Jewish/Scandinavian Chicago neighborhood that was cleansed in the 1960s/1970s by black gang violence. A similar event happened in the Boston neighborhood of Mattapan. Jews may be liberal but that didn’t protect them.

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  135. @jack ryan
    Poor, underclass Blacks are being "ethnically cleansed" from my, Obama's former Chicago South Side lakefront area.

    Upper Middle Class Blacks are working with Whites, Gays, Asians to facilitate the ethnic cleansing of lower class, welfare underclass Blacks from the SS Lakefront. There are so many subtle and not so subtle things being done in this area.

    I notice that virtually all the outdoor concrete Basketball courts have been taken off the Lakefront. Lower class Blacks like to barbecue, drink, play basketball and harass women, White folks, cyclists. So the City put in lots of things that underclass Blacks have no use for - prairie restoration projects, expensive sail boat basins, the city ended all free parking on the lakefront parks. For a long while there was no walking access from poor Black areas in North Kenwood/Bronzeville - no bridges across the metra tracks which serve as a very effective "moat" to protect the lakefront parks.

    No sure how the Obama library in Jackson Park will change things. The huge Tiger Woods investment to upgrade Jackson Park and South Shore golf courses in to a top level golf course - I doubt poor, underclass Blacks are going to be paying $100 for a round of golf.

    There is no point in building the Obama library (projected cost: $1 BILLION) and Tiger Woods golf course in Jackson Park if the surrounding area is not gentrified. Otherwise it’s too dangerous, and thus financially unwise.

    The Jackson Park site is surrounded on the West and South by the Grand Crossing, Woodlawn and South Shore neighborhoods, which, according to the Chicago Tribune, are the 7th, 8th and 9th most violent neighborhoods in Chicago (see http://crime.chicagotribune.com/). (BTW, Chicago consists of 77 neighborhood areas.) To the North is the Hyde Park neighborhood, home to the University of Chicago and its large hospital, as well as the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry. According to the Chicago Tribune, Hyde Park is the 29th most violent neighborhood in Chicago. The University and Museum have been outposts for decades and, I assume, welcome the changes wrought by the library and golf course. (Steve’s readers may recall that BHO landed a cushy job lecturing at the U of C law school just about a year after having graduated law school himself!)

    Back in 2012 Steve didn’t think that BHO was a major player in proposed real estate driven changes on the south side of Chicago. (See “An Old White Lefty’s View of Where Obama is Coming From, iSteve, May 27, 2012.)

    In that post Steve quoted at length from a 2008 speech given by Robert Fitch, a New York-based, leftwing journalist. In that speech Fitch alleged that when Rev. Jeremiah Wright became too troublesome for Obama, Obama switched his church affiliation to the Apostolic Church of God (“ACG”) in Woodlawn. At that time the ACG was headed up by the “Bishop” Arthur M. Brazier. Fitch further alleged that Brazier – through the ACG and its affiliate, The Woodlawn Organization – and the U of C were scheming to gentrify Woodlawn.

    The site of the BHO Presidential library was announced in July 2016. This July 2016 Chicago Tribune article reports the selection of the Jackson Park site and notes that the site is adjacent to Woodlawn. http://www.chicagotribune.com/ct-obama-library-jackson-park-announced-met-20160729-story.html . It also notes that much of the vacant land in Woodlawn is owned by the ACG and its affiliate The Woodlawn Community Development Corp.

    I think that in light of the placement of the BHO library Steve should revise his earlier conclusion.

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  136. @G Pinfold
    Was Bud Freeman the father of Russ who played piano with Chet Baker. Wikipedia is not always forthcoming with who begat whom.
    The old man was born in Chicago in 1906, Russ in 26, and then Bud split for New York in 27. Anyone know?

    No relation. Fantastic players, both.

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  137. “We don’t care if (white families) run all the way to Hong Kong, as long as they run.” This reminds me of an article I once saw in the Chicago Tribune about a Chicago themed restaurant in Hong Kong. “Several Australians hunkered around the three-sided bar under a television replaying Chicago Blackhawks hockey games roared back, “Welcome to Little Chicago, mate.“

    “What part of Chicago are you guys from?“ asked Pendleton, who operates an import/export business in Jakarta, Indonesia.

    “Way on the South Side, mate, way on the South Side,“ one Australian said.” http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1989-11-05/news/8901280372_1_mayor-washington-richard-daley-hong-kong-island

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  138. @ben tillman

    Uncomfortable thought: If we define the current elite liberal consensus as the ultimate manifestation of the metropolitan ethos, there’s an argument to be made that unleashing blacks on the metropolises decades ago actually delayed the formation of that consensus.
     
    The formation of that consensus predated and caused the unleashing you mention.

    1960s racial do-gooderism is ancestral to, but distinct from the open borders bugmanism of the current year. Also, I don’t think it was elite liberals who made all of those blacks migrate to northern cities in the first place.

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  139. @EriK

    Newark used to be Italian and Jewish, with its most famous natives being Frankie Valli, Chris Christie, Philip Roth, Moe Berg and Ed Koch.

     

    Ah Newark
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E-vGOttKBU

    It is worth pointing out that the kid who played AJ was cast solely for his physical resemblance to James Gandolfini. He hit his growth spurt season 2 but by then it was too late and they kept him.

    He hasn’t worked since. Hell, his sister has barely worked since. She is married to Lenny Dykstra’s son.

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  140. @songbird
    There is an older pattern as well. White Catholic immigrants displacing the WASP groups. First from neighborhoods, then from the city as a whole, then from the close suburbs which were seen as more desirable.

    I think part of the movement is just a natural pull to the suburbs, as people gain in wealth. First the transit system, then cars had a lot to do with it. Cars and highways would probably explain the 1950s pretty well. Real estate was much cheaper as well. My grandfather sold his house and moved to one about 3 miles further away with a yard, and bought a cottage near the beach and one by the mountains all in the 1950s and he was squarely middle class, not rich. If there was any rise in crime at that time (I've heard someone who grew up there suggest it) It had to do with Italian youths or the Irish mob..

    None of this is to minimize the troubles caused by blacks in later years.

    I was once trying to find an event that took place in 1909 in the newspapers, but I did not know the date, so I had to browse. I was struck by the proportion of criminal stories that involved blacks. Sometimes, they were just oddball, like black men hearing a rumor that there was a buried treasure in someone's basement and sneaking in at night with a lantern to dig it up. This isn't scientific, but back then, the black pop was near about 3%.

    This sounds like an episode of Amos ‘n’ Andy.

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  141. @AM

    I look back and wonder what the hell our church leaders were thinking. We weren’t even there to bear witness to our faith. We were cleaning up communal areas that the able-bodied black residents couldn’t be bothered to clean. Instead they stood around and critiqued our efforts.
     
    This appears to be the status quo for modern churchian leadership, regardless of denomination. Habitat for Humanity at least has a better model of charity.

    Care to take a guess as to what denomination I was raised in?

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Care to take a guess as to what denomination I was raised in?
     
    Church of the sacred bleedin'-hearted Jesus located somewhere in Los Angeleeez, California?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyK1bZZ7E-s

    "If you're down on your luck, and you can't harmonize, find a girl with faraway eyes."

    Sorry, no offense, I do want to know, and nobody else guessed anything. Plus, I like some of the more obscure Stones. Not particularly PC either, the lyrics, now that I hear it again.
  142. Alex Garcia’s pictures are thrilling.

    http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/assignment-chicago/2013/10/street-photography-in-the-austin-neighborhood.html

    The link above (also mentioned by Steve Sailer in his text) allows to have quite a good look at them.

    Extraordinary work. Unparalleld, as far as I know. Interesting stuff from lots of different perspectives:

    Sociology

    Aesthetics (especially Garcia’s goal, to capture black spontaneity)

    Anthropology

    Drugs

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    The pictures are fine, Dieter, but this surveillance photographer*, Alan Garcia, is a clueless piece of work. His pictures, "... that were taken in between assignments for a story about how Austin's development has been neglected by the city and its planners." See the problem is only that the city planners neglected this part. The file folder (oh, this is 2017 - the Word file) with the plans for the Austin neighborhood got accidentally shredded (sent to the Windows recycle bin). That's the ticket - it had nothing to do with those youths in the photos - they were a product of those files getting misplaced.

    It's this lack of commercial development, including affordable grocery stores without liquor, which is a thrust of our recent story...
     
    OK, I can't tell for sure, but it reads like this guy considers this a cause, not effect.

    "Man, if they'd only opened grocery stores WITHOUT liquor sales, it's all be different! I could walk around here, take pictures out in the open, and we might could hold hands and sing Kumbaya in the evening."


    * Yeah, pictures were taken in the blind via a camera inside the car, behind tinted windows AND some kind of shade.
  143. @Anon
    In what I am sure is completely unrelated news, McDonalds is moving its corporate headquarters from Sailer's other suburban Chicago obsession Oak Park to the Loop. Apparently, all of their desired employees want to live in downtown Chicago, these days days. Wonder why.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-surburban-firms-relocate-cities-20170716-story.html

    Since the future of McD's is in replacing as many of their low wage workers with self-serve kiosks and robots as technology will allow, apparently they will need more hip young "digital" workers. Its pretty clear that Rahm Emmanuel's American Carnage is working pretty well for at least some his constituents. I wonder how long Elysium will last though.

    So many people want to live on the north side and work downtown in Chicago these days, that companies with suburban campuses are at a big disadvantage in getting younger workers. No one wants to drive an hour and a half to Schaumburg when you could instead take the el downtown or walk to work, so you see companies moving back into the city. The city needs to make sure the black shootings don’t spill over into the white areas as they are starting to do in St. Louis.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kylie
    ". The city [Chicago] needs to make sure the black shootings don’t spill over into the white areas as they are starting to do in St. Louis."

    Yes. A Facebook friend who lives in south central St. Louis told me crime was getting worse in her area as a result of the thugs fanning out from Ferguson.
  144. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anon
    In what I am sure is completely unrelated news, McDonalds is moving its corporate headquarters from Sailer's other suburban Chicago obsession Oak Park to the Loop. Apparently, all of their desired employees want to live in downtown Chicago, these days days. Wonder why.

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-surburban-firms-relocate-cities-20170716-story.html

    Since the future of McD's is in replacing as many of their low wage workers with self-serve kiosks and robots as technology will allow, apparently they will need more hip young "digital" workers. Its pretty clear that Rahm Emmanuel's American Carnage is working pretty well for at least some his constituents. I wonder how long Elysium will last though.

    McDonald’s is moving its HQ from Oak Brook, Illinois, not Oak Park. You are mistaken.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Whoops. Thanks for the correction.

    Probably the connection is not with the black flight from Austen is not as direct as I thought. But I guess they are not so disconnected.
  145. @prosa123
    American Airlines kept the St. Louis hub for a while after it acquired TWA, but eventually closed it because it was too close to the much larger hubs at Chicago and Dallas. American also de-hubbed Nashville and Raleigh, but both cities are doing fine. As is Portland, which used to be a Delta hub.

    Yes, Prosa, that acquisition caused the closing of STL as a hub. It was too close to the other hubs that American had, as you wrote, and just consolidation. It’s very much the same as Memphis airport terminal becoming a ghost town (1/3 of it has been demolished already) due to the merger of Delta with Northwest. Why keep that hub, when Atlanta is not that far and is the big hub? As I wrote to Steve, Memphis, the airport (the airfield itself) will do to fine due to hundreds of FedEx flights daily.

    Cleveland airport is a ghost town after having been a major Continental hub – same thing – with the merger with United, why have this hub, when Chicago is the big one?

    Pittsburgh airport is a ghost town too, but even without any merger. About 12 years back or so, US Air decided that 2 hubs, 300 miles or so across the one state were not necessary.

    Nashville is busy due to Southwest, and Raleigh lost almost all the American airlines flying it had in the 1990′s, but is now a Delta “focus city” and SW flies there a lot too.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    It's pretty interesting that anti-trust is so out of fashion that virtually nobody squawks over airline mergers that frequently knock out a major cause of corporate jobs: having an airline hub allowing salesmen and managers to fly direct.
  146. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    It was Greek too. The very Hagia Sophia styled orthodox church of Saints Helen & Constantine became Mosque Maryam after the fall. History repeats itself.

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  147. @Dieter Kief
    Alex Garcia's pictures are thrilling.

    http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/assignment-chicago/2013/10/street-photography-in-the-austin-neighborhood.html

    The link above (also mentioned by Steve Sailer in his text) allows to have quite a good look at them.


    Extraordinary work. Unparalleld, as far as I know. Interesting stuff from lots of different perspectives:

    Sociology

    Aesthetics (especially Garcia's goal, to capture black spontaneity)

    Anthropology

    Drugs

    The pictures are fine, Dieter, but this surveillance photographer*, Alan Garcia, is a clueless piece of work. His pictures, “… that were taken in between assignments for a story about how Austin’s development has been neglected by the city and its planners.” See the problem is only that the city planners neglected this part. The file folder (oh, this is 2017 – the Word file) with the plans for the Austin neighborhood got accidentally shredded (sent to the Windows recycle bin). That’s the ticket – it had nothing to do with those youths in the photos – they were a product of those files getting misplaced.

    It’s this lack of commercial development, including affordable grocery stores without liquor, which is a thrust of our recent story…

    OK, I can’t tell for sure, but it reads like this guy considers this a cause, not effect.

    “Man, if they’d only opened grocery stores WITHOUT liquor sales, it’s all be different! I could walk around here, take pictures out in the open, and we might could hold hands and sing Kumbaya in the evening.”

    * Yeah, pictures were taken in the blind via a camera inside the car, behind tinted windows AND some kind of shade.

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    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    Ach, Achmed (- by the way - that's a quote from the Rhine-Neckar (=Mannheim/Heidelberg/Speyer) Punk-Rockers Radio-Ballett, it ends a song which is called The Caravan and is indeed a rendering of the DaDa poet Hugo Ball's masterpiece of the same title. The song ends with the spoken sigh "Ach, Achmed!" - and this song is as close to a perfect masterpiece as it is to a devastating piece of hackwork (it's brightish punk (what lots of listerners didn't get, at least as long as I was dancing in front of stages, where Reinhold (= the noble knights's!) Weiser's Radio-Ballett got it's act across) - great times, and not forgotten. Ok - there I proceed, concerning Garcia. I did not write about him as an interpreter of his work, or as a sociologist or from an anthropological angle or whatever. Nothing like that.

    All I d o do (that's DaDa and punkish, too - if only a little bit, isn't it?!) - is to say: Great photographs by this Max Garcia man - some of them of a quality (quality not only (and definitely not in the first place) in a technical sense) - an enlightening quality, I laud, which I've never seen before.

    Great work. A delight! Ehe, this time round, the final words should go like this: It's the artist as artist (as being opposed to: The artist as interpreter, trying to make sense - - - ), who makes the art. And if he does, that's quite a lot already...be careful, to ask for more - you might not be rewarded... ...

    Finis operis. Laus deo!

  148. @Achmed E. Newman
    Yes, Prosa, that acquisition caused the closing of STL as a hub. It was too close to the other hubs that American had, as you wrote, and just consolidation. It's very much the same as Memphis airport terminal becoming a ghost town (1/3 of it has been demolished already) due to the merger of Delta with Northwest. Why keep that hub, when Atlanta is not that far and is the big hub? As I wrote to Steve, Memphis, the airport (the airfield itself) will do to fine due to hundreds of FedEx flights daily.

    Cleveland airport is a ghost town after having been a major Continental hub - same thing - with the merger with United, why have this hub, when Chicago is the big one?

    Pittsburgh airport is a ghost town too, but even without any merger. About 12 years back or so, US Air decided that 2 hubs, 300 miles or so across the one state were not necessary.

    Nashville is busy due to Southwest, and Raleigh lost almost all the American airlines flying it had in the 1990's, but is now a Delta "focus city" and SW flies there a lot too.

    It’s pretty interesting that anti-trust is so out of fashion that virtually nobody squawks over airline mergers that frequently knock out a major cause of corporate jobs: having an airline hub allowing salesmen and managers to fly direct.

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    • Replies: @JackOH
    Back in the 1960s, United ran about two dozen flights a day out of our smallish local airport (about 600,000 metro pop.) There was also usually a second carrier. You could make a snap decision to fly to NYC at 1:00 P. M., drive 20 minutes to the airport, pay $50 cash for a round-trip ticket at the counter, and be on your way at 2:00 P. M, and arrive at Newark about 55 minutes later. Total time maybe 2 hours. Nowadays maybe 5 hours, flying out of Pittsburgh. Drive time to NYC is maybe 8 hours.
  149. @Steve Sailer
    It's pretty interesting that anti-trust is so out of fashion that virtually nobody squawks over airline mergers that frequently knock out a major cause of corporate jobs: having an airline hub allowing salesmen and managers to fly direct.

    Back in the 1960s, United ran about two dozen flights a day out of our smallish local airport (about 600,000 metro pop.) There was also usually a second carrier. You could make a snap decision to fly to NYC at 1:00 P. M., drive 20 minutes to the airport, pay $50 cash for a round-trip ticket at the counter, and be on your way at 2:00 P. M, and arrive at Newark about 55 minutes later. Total time maybe 2 hours. Nowadays maybe 5 hours, flying out of Pittsburgh. Drive time to NYC is maybe 8 hours.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Now that I think about it, the post 9/11 security added time probably really hurt cities that are sort of close to a lot of other place, but adding 90 minutes to the process increases the total travel time considerably. Los Angeles, in contrast, is so far from everywhere except Las Vegas, San Francisco, and Phoenix that the added time doesn't change much proportionally.
    , @Art Deco
    Passenger-miles per year flown in the United States in 1965 amounted to 53 million. Last year they amounted to 641 million. Passenger-miles per person per year have increased 7-fold since 1965. The notion that flying was more affordable and convenient for ordinary people in 1965 is false.
  150. @JackOH
    Back in the 1960s, United ran about two dozen flights a day out of our smallish local airport (about 600,000 metro pop.) There was also usually a second carrier. You could make a snap decision to fly to NYC at 1:00 P. M., drive 20 minutes to the airport, pay $50 cash for a round-trip ticket at the counter, and be on your way at 2:00 P. M, and arrive at Newark about 55 minutes later. Total time maybe 2 hours. Nowadays maybe 5 hours, flying out of Pittsburgh. Drive time to NYC is maybe 8 hours.

    Now that I think about it, the post 9/11 security added time probably really hurt cities that are sort of close to a lot of other place, but adding 90 minutes to the process increases the total travel time considerably. Los Angeles, in contrast, is so far from everywhere except Las Vegas, San Francisco, and Phoenix that the added time doesn’t change much proportionally.

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Not just the time, though true, but the aggravation and disgust with the "security theater" that goes on has gotten people on the road. Re: your other comment, about the anti-trust thing, these big guys running the airlines are true sac-hangers on the US Feral Gov't. They are PC as all hell - read the airline mags - big globalists (but I guess what WOULD you expect there? ;-}

    Now, the decrease in number of hubs is one problem, but also the major decrease in direct routes for business and pleasure travel from medium-size cities is also a negative effect of the 3 big mergers. With 6 airlines, you may have had 15 cities you could have gone to direct - now down to 8-10. It's not just that those cities are destinations, but it could turn a formerly 2-leg trip into a 3-leg one - that's an all-day ordeal.
    , @Art Deco
    but adding 90 minutes to the process increases the total travel time considerably.

    I was recently enveloped by an enormous mob at the Orlando Airport. I've never seen such a crowd in an airport before, and I first boarded an airplane in 1968 and have been in and out of DC, Seattle, and Austin, Tx in the years since enhanced security procedures were instituted. We were detained at security as well while our carry-on was placed in a queue and subject to a manual search (most people were not). From the time we stepped out of the cab to the time we sat down at the gate 40 minutes elapsed.
  151. @Kylie
    Care to take a guess as to what denomination I was raised in?

    Care to take a guess as to what denomination I was raised in?

    Church of the sacred bleedin’-hearted Jesus located somewhere in Los Angeleeez, California?

    If you’re down on your luck, and you can’t harmonize, find a girl with faraway eyes.

    Sorry, no offense, I do want to know, and nobody else guessed anything. Plus, I like some of the more obscure Stones. Not particularly PC either, the lyrics, now that I hear it again.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    It's a little hard these days to imagine Sir Mick in Bakersfield, but he says it's a true story.
    , @Kylie
    Lol! No offense taken.

    UCC. United Church of Christ.
  152. @Steve Sailer
    Now that I think about it, the post 9/11 security added time probably really hurt cities that are sort of close to a lot of other place, but adding 90 minutes to the process increases the total travel time considerably. Los Angeles, in contrast, is so far from everywhere except Las Vegas, San Francisco, and Phoenix that the added time doesn't change much proportionally.

    Not just the time, though true, but the aggravation and disgust with the “security theater” that goes on has gotten people on the road. Re: your other comment, about the anti-trust thing, these big guys running the airlines are true sac-hangers on the US Feral Gov’t. They are PC as all hell – read the airline mags – big globalists (but I guess what WOULD you expect there? ;-}

    Now, the decrease in number of hubs is one problem, but also the major decrease in direct routes for business and pleasure travel from medium-size cities is also a negative effect of the 3 big mergers. With 6 airlines, you may have had 15 cities you could have gone to direct – now down to 8-10. It’s not just that those cities are destinations, but it could turn a formerly 2-leg trip into a 3-leg one – that’s an all-day ordeal.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    oops, I see that Jack in (eastern, I guess based on 8 hours to NYC) OH also wrote about the lack of direct service. I read it too fast.
    , @Steve Sailer
    And then there's bad weather on one of the legs and now it's a two day ordeal.
  153. @Achmed E. Newman
    Not just the time, though true, but the aggravation and disgust with the "security theater" that goes on has gotten people on the road. Re: your other comment, about the anti-trust thing, these big guys running the airlines are true sac-hangers on the US Feral Gov't. They are PC as all hell - read the airline mags - big globalists (but I guess what WOULD you expect there? ;-}

    Now, the decrease in number of hubs is one problem, but also the major decrease in direct routes for business and pleasure travel from medium-size cities is also a negative effect of the 3 big mergers. With 6 airlines, you may have had 15 cities you could have gone to direct - now down to 8-10. It's not just that those cities are destinations, but it could turn a formerly 2-leg trip into a 3-leg one - that's an all-day ordeal.

    oops, I see that Jack in (eastern, I guess based on 8 hours to NYC) OH also wrote about the lack of direct service. I read it too fast.

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  154. @Catholic Philly Prole
    Off topic, sort of. Typical summer weekend in Philly with a dozen or so shootings, 5 murders, and a flash-mob of 500 "teens" throwing bottles at the police in Germantown. The local NAACP is fighting re-appointment of Lynne Abraham (a white (somewhat) law and order Democrat and former DA) because the most recent one (a diverse hire named Seth Williams) was recently indicted for corruption charges and lost the job, so we essentially have no D.A. currently. The NAACP called Abraham a "menace" who specifically targeted Blacks or some such. Oh, it gets better, the Democrat nomination for our next D.A. (((Larry Krasner))) is a Black Lives Matter Soros plant and radical Leftist who believes that the Police are the problem and blacks are overcharged with crimes they didn't do. Should get real interesting around here.

    http://www.philly.com/philly/news/politics/city/philly-naacp-vows-to-block-lynne-abraham-from-becoming-interim-da-20170715.html

    Flash mob story:

    http://6abc.com/news/teen-mob-targets-police-in-germantown/2225560/

    Believe it or not they didn't disable the comments for the flash mob story, truly a rarity. There's lots of doozies in there including this one which was up-voted lots.

    "A Single Parent Sub-Culture raised on anti white animosity and envy. Triggered by their racist hatred and a righteous indignation instilled and encouraged by a Leftist Hollywood and a Public School program of Victimist Propaganda.

    Empowered by Liberals and their Entitlement Mentality. Protected by the National News Media, Political Correctness and a corrupt racist former DOJ under Eric ‘My People’ Holder and Barack ‘If I Had a Son’ Obama.

    Forgiven by an endless list of Affirmative Excuses and Lowered Expectations. Sanitized and Glorified beyond recognition by a fawning SJW media on TV, on the Movie screen, and in Commercials, as innocent, morally and intellectually superior, righteous paragons of humanity.

    Liberals and their media having dumbed down their education, inflated their egos, encouraged their feelings of victimization, and enraged their senses, created a youth culture of stupid, self-important, angry, uncontrollable brats."

    The up-voted comment could have been edited down to a three letter acronym.

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  155. @Achmed E. Newman
    Not just the time, though true, but the aggravation and disgust with the "security theater" that goes on has gotten people on the road. Re: your other comment, about the anti-trust thing, these big guys running the airlines are true sac-hangers on the US Feral Gov't. They are PC as all hell - read the airline mags - big globalists (but I guess what WOULD you expect there? ;-}

    Now, the decrease in number of hubs is one problem, but also the major decrease in direct routes for business and pleasure travel from medium-size cities is also a negative effect of the 3 big mergers. With 6 airlines, you may have had 15 cities you could have gone to direct - now down to 8-10. It's not just that those cities are destinations, but it could turn a formerly 2-leg trip into a 3-leg one - that's an all-day ordeal.

    And then there’s bad weather on one of the legs and now it’s a two day ordeal.

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  156. @Achmed E. Newman

    Care to take a guess as to what denomination I was raised in?
     
    Church of the sacred bleedin'-hearted Jesus located somewhere in Los Angeleeez, California?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyK1bZZ7E-s

    "If you're down on your luck, and you can't harmonize, find a girl with faraway eyes."

    Sorry, no offense, I do want to know, and nobody else guessed anything. Plus, I like some of the more obscure Stones. Not particularly PC either, the lyrics, now that I hear it again.

    It’s a little hard these days to imagine Sir Mick in Bakersfield, but he says it’s a true story.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    I never knew that was a real story. I always thought those guys were pretty much making fun of country music in that song, but it's a good tune anyway.
  157. @Achmed E. Newman

    Care to take a guess as to what denomination I was raised in?
     
    Church of the sacred bleedin'-hearted Jesus located somewhere in Los Angeleeez, California?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyK1bZZ7E-s

    "If you're down on your luck, and you can't harmonize, find a girl with faraway eyes."

    Sorry, no offense, I do want to know, and nobody else guessed anything. Plus, I like some of the more obscure Stones. Not particularly PC either, the lyrics, now that I hear it again.

    Lol! No offense taken.

    UCC. United Church of Christ.

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  158. @Flip
    Jews in Chicago live north and not west or south for the most part.

    That is certainly true now but was not always the case.

    Referring to the North Lawndale neighborhood on Chicago’s West Side, wikipedia reports(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Chicago):

    By the 1920s many of the Czechs were gone, and Jews became the majority ethnic group of the neighborhood after having left the crowded confines of the Maxwell Street ghetto. North Lawndale later became known as being the largest Jewish settlement in the City of Chicago, with 25% of the city’s Jewish population.[4]

    From about 1918 to 1955, Jews, overwhelmingly of Russian and Eastern European origin, dominated the neighborhood, starting in North Lawndale and moving northward as they became more prosperous. In the 1950s, blacks migrated into the area from the South Side and from southern states. Unscrupulous real-estate dealers all but evacuated the white population by using blockbusting and scare tactics related to the change in ethnicity. In a span of about ten years, the white population of North Lawndale dropped from 99% to less than 9%, but the number of total residents increased.

    Lesson learned, they all headed north (Rogers Park and North Shore).

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  159. @Flip
    So many people want to live on the north side and work downtown in Chicago these days, that companies with suburban campuses are at a big disadvantage in getting younger workers. No one wants to drive an hour and a half to Schaumburg when you could instead take the el downtown or walk to work, so you see companies moving back into the city. The city needs to make sure the black shootings don't spill over into the white areas as they are starting to do in St. Louis.

    “. The city [Chicago] needs to make sure the black shootings don’t spill over into the white areas as they are starting to do in St. Louis.”

    Yes. A Facebook friend who lives in south central St. Louis told me crime was getting worse in her area as a result of the thugs fanning out from Ferguson.

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  160. @Steve Sailer
    It's a little hard these days to imagine Sir Mick in Bakersfield, but he says it's a true story.

    I never knew that was a real story. I always thought those guys were pretty much making fun of country music in that song, but it’s a good tune anyway.

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  161. @Achmed E. Newman
    The pictures are fine, Dieter, but this surveillance photographer*, Alan Garcia, is a clueless piece of work. His pictures, "... that were taken in between assignments for a story about how Austin's development has been neglected by the city and its planners." See the problem is only that the city planners neglected this part. The file folder (oh, this is 2017 - the Word file) with the plans for the Austin neighborhood got accidentally shredded (sent to the Windows recycle bin). That's the ticket - it had nothing to do with those youths in the photos - they were a product of those files getting misplaced.

    It's this lack of commercial development, including affordable grocery stores without liquor, which is a thrust of our recent story...
     
    OK, I can't tell for sure, but it reads like this guy considers this a cause, not effect.

    "Man, if they'd only opened grocery stores WITHOUT liquor sales, it's all be different! I could walk around here, take pictures out in the open, and we might could hold hands and sing Kumbaya in the evening."


    * Yeah, pictures were taken in the blind via a camera inside the car, behind tinted windows AND some kind of shade.

    Ach, Achmed (- by the way – that’s a quote from the Rhine-Neckar (=Mannheim/Heidelberg/Speyer) Punk-Rockers Radio-Ballett, it ends a song which is called The Caravan and is indeed a rendering of the DaDa poet Hugo Ball’s masterpiece of the same title. The song ends with the spoken sigh “Ach, Achmed!” – and this song is as close to a perfect masterpiece as it is to a devastating piece of hackwork (it’s brightish punk (what lots of listerners didn’t get, at least as long as I was dancing in front of stages, where Reinhold (= the noble knights’s!) Weiser’s Radio-Ballett got it’s act across) – great times, and not forgotten. Ok – there I proceed, concerning Garcia. I did not write about him as an interpreter of his work, or as a sociologist or from an anthropological angle or whatever. Nothing like that.

    All I d o do (that’s DaDa and punkish, too – if only a little bit, isn’t it?!) – is to say: Great photographs by this Max Garcia man – some of them of a quality (quality not only (and definitely not in the first place) in a technical sense) – an enlightening quality, I laud, which I’ve never seen before.

    Great work. A delight! Ehe, this time round, the final words should go like this: It’s the artist as artist (as being opposed to: The artist as interpreter, trying to make sense – – – ), who makes the art. And if he does, that’s quite a lot already…be careful, to ask for more – you might not be rewarded… …

    Finis operis. Laus deo!

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    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Yeah, Dieter, I was just adding my opinion of Mr. Garcia because I went through his post via the link you put in. That was not an argument about the quality of the pictures. I have seen people like this many times, so it is not as striking to me.

    As far as the German music goes, as far as I knew, the only German artist is Nina and her only song is 99 Luft Balloons, but I don't think you will like what you read in that link. DO NOT CLICK ON IT or WE MIGHT NOT BE FRIENDS ANY LONGER.

    crap, you did it.

    ;-}

    If you have a link to a youtube video of the stuff you are talking about in the 1st paragraph, you can put it in another comment - it is supposed to fit the subject matter, but since it'll be in German, who will know?

  162. @Dieter Kief
    Ach, Achmed (- by the way - that's a quote from the Rhine-Neckar (=Mannheim/Heidelberg/Speyer) Punk-Rockers Radio-Ballett, it ends a song which is called The Caravan and is indeed a rendering of the DaDa poet Hugo Ball's masterpiece of the same title. The song ends with the spoken sigh "Ach, Achmed!" - and this song is as close to a perfect masterpiece as it is to a devastating piece of hackwork (it's brightish punk (what lots of listerners didn't get, at least as long as I was dancing in front of stages, where Reinhold (= the noble knights's!) Weiser's Radio-Ballett got it's act across) - great times, and not forgotten. Ok - there I proceed, concerning Garcia. I did not write about him as an interpreter of his work, or as a sociologist or from an anthropological angle or whatever. Nothing like that.

    All I d o do (that's DaDa and punkish, too - if only a little bit, isn't it?!) - is to say: Great photographs by this Max Garcia man - some of them of a quality (quality not only (and definitely not in the first place) in a technical sense) - an enlightening quality, I laud, which I've never seen before.

    Great work. A delight! Ehe, this time round, the final words should go like this: It's the artist as artist (as being opposed to: The artist as interpreter, trying to make sense - - - ), who makes the art. And if he does, that's quite a lot already...be careful, to ask for more - you might not be rewarded... ...

    Finis operis. Laus deo!

    Yeah, Dieter, I was just adding my opinion of Mr. Garcia because I went through his post via the link you put in. That was not an argument about the quality of the pictures. I have seen people like this many times, so it is not as striking to me.

    As far as the German music goes, as far as I knew, the only German artist is Nina and her only song is 99 Luft Balloons, but I don’t think you will like what you read in that link. DO NOT CLICK ON IT or WE MIGHT NOT BE FRIENDS ANY LONGER.

    crap, you did it.

    ;-}

    If you have a link to a youtube video of the stuff you are talking about in the 1st paragraph, you can put it in another comment – it is supposed to fit the subject matter, but since it’ll be in German, who will know?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
    Nena is nice - she makes lots of children CDs now - a fantastic grandmother, I guess. Daughter of a liberal headmaster.

    Das Radioballett - ohh - they were too punkish to ever manage to make films, or videos or some such. Therefor, they live on in memory even better, it seems - to me at last...

    Now - welcome to the stone-age - there are a few songs of 'em online. I recommend "Zombies" - at around 2.02 min you'll hear those words: "Reality is more terrible, than any fantasy/ more terrible, than any V I D E O O O !!" - See - they had skin in the game, and they were consequent: No Video, very clear!
    Just scroll down till you see the word "Zombies", then click - et voilà!

    http://www.brainpepper.info/radioballett/index.htm


    Lead-singer and guitarist and writer Weiser is mostly acting now. Last time I saw him perform, he gave an (almost...) perfect Mephisto - in both parts of Goethe's Faust in Theater der Altstadt in Stuttgart. Great! Made lots of references to the Stones, while acting as Mephisto. When I talked to him afterwards, it turned out, that some of them were even made unconsciously - they just seemed to happen, while he was strumming that guitar. (Far Away Eyes is a great Stones song. Jagguhr 's very ironic - and disciplined - - and even a bit scary, as it seems).

    I see - you saw such scenes before - but even then - it's an achievement to capture those scenes in such an unforced and unspoiled - unconscious almost - way, as Max Garcia. I could name no other current photographer like him. Not here, and not there, so to speak. And I#d hold, that his pictures are far from being scenic or idylllic. Rather raw. Not nice.

  163. @Achmed E. Newman
    Yeah, Dieter, I was just adding my opinion of Mr. Garcia because I went through his post via the link you put in. That was not an argument about the quality of the pictures. I have seen people like this many times, so it is not as striking to me.

    As far as the German music goes, as far as I knew, the only German artist is Nina and her only song is 99 Luft Balloons, but I don't think you will like what you read in that link. DO NOT CLICK ON IT or WE MIGHT NOT BE FRIENDS ANY LONGER.

    crap, you did it.

    ;-}

    If you have a link to a youtube video of the stuff you are talking about in the 1st paragraph, you can put it in another comment - it is supposed to fit the subject matter, but since it'll be in German, who will know?

    Nena is nice – she makes lots of children CDs now – a fantastic grandmother, I guess. Daughter of a liberal headmaster.

    Das Radioballett – ohh – they were too punkish to ever manage to make films, or videos or some such. Therefor, they live on in memory even better, it seems – to me at last…

    Now – welcome to the stone-age – there are a few songs of ‘em online. I recommend “Zombies” – at around 2.02 min you’ll hear those words: “Reality is more terrible, than any fantasy/ more terrible, than any V I D E O O O !!” – See – they had skin in the game, and they were consequent: No Video, very clear!
    Just scroll down till you see the word “Zombies”, then click – et voilà!

    http://www.brainpepper.info/radioballett/index.htm

    Lead-singer and guitarist and writer Weiser is mostly acting now. Last time I saw him perform, he gave an (almost…) perfect Mephisto – in both parts of Goethe’s Faust in Theater der Altstadt in Stuttgart. Great! Made lots of references to the Stones, while acting as Mephisto. When I talked to him afterwards, it turned out, that some of them were even made unconsciously – they just seemed to happen, while he was strumming that guitar. (Far Away Eyes is a great Stones song. Jagguhr ‘s very ironic – and disciplined – – and even a bit scary, as it seems).

    I see – you saw such scenes before – but even then – it’s an achievement to capture those scenes in such an unforced and unspoiled – unconscious almost – way, as Max Garcia. I could name no other current photographer like him. Not here, and not there, so to speak. And I#d hold, that his pictures are far from being scenic or idylllic. Rather raw. Not nice.

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  164. @whorefinder
    That, and the fact that "good" blacks have affirmative action jobs for which they are unqualified, and therefore are buying houses in places that they shouldn't be able to, because they haven't the IQ or social skills to have them.

    This results in children of such families exhibiting the same low-class behavior of ghetto blacks because they are literally on the same level. So even if the "urban" relatives don't follow suit, you can rest assured the kids of such "professionals" will be violent and dumb like most inner-city blacks. And the pop culture encouraging "keeping it real" behavior isn't helping.

    For example, Trayvon Martin was on his suspension from school for weed dealing and breaking into lockers when he attacked Zimmerman. He attacked Zimmerman when visiting his father, who had an affirmative action job that gave him the ability to get a place in a safe non-black neighborhood. The kind of place that had a neighborhood watch and neighbors who cared about safety. But Trayvon, despite his father's good non-ghetto job, was still going around casing houses to rob and causing mischief like a ghetto thug---and getting woefully upset at being upbraided for such criminal behavior.

    You can dress a monkey in a suit, but he's still going to have monkey babies, and they will still fling poo.

    But, on the plus side, at least the high school will get a fast running back for four years. Assuming he can avoid getting expelled.

    He attacked Zimmerman when visiting his father, who had an affirmative action job

    His father was a long-haul truck driver. His mother was a mid-level civil servant with one of the school districts in greater Miami. If anyone benefited from workplace mulligans, it was likely his mother. From 1999 to 2011, TM’s primary caretaker was his step-mother, Alicia Stanley. Also in the mix was his father (who was out of town several days a week), his paternal uncle (retired military), and his paternal uncle’s wife. His mother had him about 15% of the time.

    Tracy Martin had a messy domestic history (heading into his 3d marriage), but there was no suggestion at the time that there was anything amiss about his vocational life. The townhouse in question was owned by Brandi Green, his fiance. Not aware there was any discussion of where she worked, much less granular details of her work life.

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    • Replies: @whorefinder
    So an atypical but typical black "family": atypical in that the father was known and had partial custody and had a steady non-illegal job, typical in that his home life was a mess and chaotic and no one was bothering disciplining the kid or really paying that much attention to him at all.

    Trayvon's attack on Zimmerman was utterly predictable.
  165. @JackOH
    Back in the 1960s, United ran about two dozen flights a day out of our smallish local airport (about 600,000 metro pop.) There was also usually a second carrier. You could make a snap decision to fly to NYC at 1:00 P. M., drive 20 minutes to the airport, pay $50 cash for a round-trip ticket at the counter, and be on your way at 2:00 P. M, and arrive at Newark about 55 minutes later. Total time maybe 2 hours. Nowadays maybe 5 hours, flying out of Pittsburgh. Drive time to NYC is maybe 8 hours.

    Passenger-miles per year flown in the United States in 1965 amounted to 53 million. Last year they amounted to 641 million. Passenger-miles per person per year have increased 7-fold since 1965. The notion that flying was more affordable and convenient for ordinary people in 1965 is false.

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    • Replies: @JackOH
    "The notion that flying was more affordable and convenient for ordinary people in 1965 is false."

    You may want to revisit that thought. Short-notice (under 24 hours) bookings of flights to NYC from Pittsburgh start at nearly 20 times the late 1960s prices from my city, which is about 60 miles northwest of Pittsburgh, and, travel time, home to destination airport, is 5 hours today versus 2 hours in the late 1960s.
  166. @Steve Sailer
    St. Louis had the best location in the country back when the best mode of transportation was the riverboat.

    There was probably a chance for St. Louis to stay a major transportation hub, but I think Chicago beat them to the postwar jet airport and then Dallas and then Denver piled on with bigger and better airports.

    Greater Chicago has 5x the population of Greater St. Louis. I don’t think the latter was going to win any competitions for traffic.

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  167. On the other hand, lots more people are obtaining concealed carry permits, and for sure we are definitely seeing more news reports of “good guys” shooting Black thugs with them.

    https://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20170310/clearing/gun-permits-firearm-owner-identification-card-concealed-carry-foid-ccl-illinois-numbers-rise-in-city

    I for one don’t like the idea of CCW permits; we need PERMITLESS CARRY so that a lot more people can “let the bullets fly.”

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  168. @Catholic Philly Prole
    "Whites can still protect themselves–somewhat–with *price*". Yes they can somewhat. But in the process we have to leave our native towns and cities and the communities that we built are scattered in the process. I don't want to live solely around the types of whites who can afford to live in wealthy areas, I'm not a yuppie. I am a prole townie that is very rooted in my neighborhood. The problem is there are few other choices to protect your family from mudsharking and emulation of hip-hop "culture". There are very few truly middle-class 90+% white places in the Philly area anymore. I'm sure that other big cities have the same problem. One other thing, my family has been in our neighborhood for 300 years and I feel a true sense of identity in that we truly built this place. Shame that we have to give OUR Communities and essentially our roots and culture away avoid the multi-cultural hordes but it is what it is.

    Many parts of Bucks County are very white, even middle class areas.

    We must work to restore freedom of association. Won’t be easy, but that must be the aim. Keep pressuring the GOP until they get on board. Fight for your hood as much as you can. Those Catholic ethnic Philly hoods were great places.

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  169. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @anonymous
    McDonald's is moving its HQ from Oak Brook, Illinois, not Oak Park. You are mistaken.

    Whoops. Thanks for the correction.

    Probably the connection is not with the black flight from Austen is not as direct as I thought. But I guess they are not so disconnected.

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  170. Many of the most beautiful geographic places in the Bay Area are the old industrial and military areas that were settled early on before the hordes descended upon the Golden State. They picked the best geographic points either for transportation reasons or as choke points guarding the inland spaces. They also had some of the best waterfront real estate and vistas. Richmond, Benicia, Martinez, Alameda, Hunters Point are all either oil refineries or former forts that are now undergoing a transformation or renaissance. It is easier to clean off the toxic waste than the groids and immigrants who seem to be concomitant with the fouled environment. The whole scam of “environmental racism” is nothing more than newcomers moving into areas where the previous inhabitants lit out for more breathable spaces. These toxic areas predated the newer arrivals by generations not the other way around.

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  171. @Art Deco
    Passenger-miles per year flown in the United States in 1965 amounted to 53 million. Last year they amounted to 641 million. Passenger-miles per person per year have increased 7-fold since 1965. The notion that flying was more affordable and convenient for ordinary people in 1965 is false.

    “The notion that flying was more affordable and convenient for ordinary people in 1965 is false.”

    You may want to revisit that thought. Short-notice (under 24 hours) bookings of flights to NYC from Pittsburgh start at nearly 20 times the late 1960s prices from my city, which is about 60 miles northwest of Pittsburgh, and, travel time, home to destination airport, is 5 hours today versus 2 hours in the late 1960s.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    You may want to revisit that thought.

    No, I don't. The statistics on passenger-miles flown are quite clear in their implications, I don't trust your memory, and the price structure in 1965 was odd as the industry was organized in a cartel and Civil Aeronautics Board policy was to provide certain benefits to smaller cities.

    You quoted a price of $50 for a round trip ticket to Newark. In 1965, $50 amounted to 1.7% of personal income per capita per year. In 2016, 1.7% of personal income per capita per year is $790. Well, United Airlines will sell you a round trip ticket from Pittsburgh to Newark for the 20th of July (return trip on the 23d of July) for $722 (economy class).

    You want a plane ticket for tomorrow, you're likely a business traveler. If you want to fly 1st class, it'll cost you $255 more. If you're planning a holiday and purchase your ticket two-weeks ahead, you can fly economy for $380.
  172. @Art Deco
    He attacked Zimmerman when visiting his father, who had an affirmative action job

    His father was a long-haul truck driver. His mother was a mid-level civil servant with one of the school districts in greater Miami. If anyone benefited from workplace mulligans, it was likely his mother. From 1999 to 2011, TM's primary caretaker was his step-mother, Alicia Stanley. Also in the mix was his father (who was out of town several days a week), his paternal uncle (retired military), and his paternal uncle's wife. His mother had him about 15% of the time.

    Tracy Martin had a messy domestic history (heading into his 3d marriage), but there was no suggestion at the time that there was anything amiss about his vocational life. The townhouse in question was owned by Brandi Green, his fiance. Not aware there was any discussion of where she worked, much less granular details of her work life.

    So an atypical but typical black “family”: atypical in that the father was known and had partial custody and had a steady non-illegal job, typical in that his home life was a mess and chaotic and no one was bothering disciplining the kid or really paying that much attention to him at all.

    Trayvon’s attack on Zimmerman was utterly predictable.

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    • Replies: @Art Deco
    So an atypical but typical black “family”: atypical in that the father was known and had partial custody and had a steady non-illegal job,

    The employment-to-population ratio for white Anglos is 0.605. That for blacks is 0.573. There are, as we speak, 8.4 million black men over the age of 19 who are gainfully employed. There are about 13.7 million blacks men over 19 in this country.


    typical in that his home life was a mess and chaotic and no one was bothering disciplining the kid or really paying that much attention to him at all.

    Up until 2011, five adults spelled each other supervising him throughout the week, with Alicia Stanley his primary caretaker. That's suboptimal but not terribly unusual. There is no indication that he was neglected and his friend Rachel Jeantel thought him spoiled. Nor is there an indication that they were not 'bothering' to discipline him before his father separated from Alicia Stanley (or afterward). His worst behavior problems appear to have been co-incident with being taken out of Alicia Stanley's home. It is plain that they were having trouble disciplining him effectively. A messy domestic situation is part and parcel of that, but this is not unknown in even the most well-ordered domestic situation. His mother was fed up with him and put him on a bus to Orlando to stay with Brandi Green and his father for an indeterminate period.



    Trayvon’s attack on Zimmerman was utterly predictable.

    It was not 'predictable' even 10 minutes before it happened. Contingency aside, it's a reasonable inference that Trayvon Martin had engaged in petty drug dealing and burglaries at the time of his death, not violent crimes. Only a small minority of young men at any one time engage in aggravated assault, robbery, rape, or murder (whether or not they've had disagreeable domestic situations).
  173. @JackOH
    "The notion that flying was more affordable and convenient for ordinary people in 1965 is false."

    You may want to revisit that thought. Short-notice (under 24 hours) bookings of flights to NYC from Pittsburgh start at nearly 20 times the late 1960s prices from my city, which is about 60 miles northwest of Pittsburgh, and, travel time, home to destination airport, is 5 hours today versus 2 hours in the late 1960s.

    You may want to revisit that thought.

    No, I don’t. The statistics on passenger-miles flown are quite clear in their implications, I don’t trust your memory, and the price structure in 1965 was odd as the industry was organized in a cartel and Civil Aeronautics Board policy was to provide certain benefits to smaller cities.

    You quoted a price of $50 for a round trip ticket to Newark. In 1965, $50 amounted to 1.7% of personal income per capita per year. In 2016, 1.7% of personal income per capita per year is $790. Well, United Airlines will sell you a round trip ticket from Pittsburgh to Newark for the 20th of July (return trip on the 23d of July) for $722 (economy class).

    You want a plane ticket for tomorrow, you’re likely a business traveler. If you want to fly 1st class, it’ll cost you $255 more. If you’re planning a holiday and purchase your ticket two-weeks ahead, you can fly economy for $380.

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  174. @whorefinder
    So an atypical but typical black "family": atypical in that the father was known and had partial custody and had a steady non-illegal job, typical in that his home life was a mess and chaotic and no one was bothering disciplining the kid or really paying that much attention to him at all.

    Trayvon's attack on Zimmerman was utterly predictable.

    So an atypical but typical black “family”: atypical in that the father was known and had partial custody and had a steady non-illegal job,

    The employment-to-population ratio for white Anglos is 0.605. That for blacks is 0.573. There are, as we speak, 8.4 million black men over the age of 19 who are gainfully employed. There are about 13.7 million blacks men over 19 in this country.

    typical in that his home life was a mess and chaotic and no one was bothering disciplining the kid or really paying that much attention to him at all.

    Up until 2011, five adults spelled each other supervising him throughout the week, with Alicia Stanley his primary caretaker. That’s suboptimal but not terribly unusual. There is no indication that he was neglected and his friend Rachel Jeantel thought him spoiled. Nor is there an indication that they were not ‘bothering’ to discipline him before his father separated from Alicia Stanley (or afterward). His worst behavior problems appear to have been co-incident with being taken out of Alicia Stanley’s home. It is plain that they were having trouble disciplining him effectively. A messy domestic situation is part and parcel of that, but this is not unknown in even the most well-ordered domestic situation. His mother was fed up with him and put him on a bus to Orlando to stay with Brandi Green and his father for an indeterminate period.

    Trayvon’s attack on Zimmerman was utterly predictable.

    It was not ‘predictable’ even 10 minutes before it happened. Contingency aside, it’s a reasonable inference that Trayvon Martin had engaged in petty drug dealing and burglaries at the time of his death, not violent crimes. Only a small minority of young men at any one time engage in aggravated assault, robbery, rape, or murder (whether or not they’ve had disagreeable domestic situations).

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  175. @Steve Sailer
    St. Louis had the best location in the country back when the best mode of transportation was the riverboat.

    There was probably a chance for St. Louis to stay a major transportation hub, but I think Chicago beat them to the postwar jet airport and then Dallas and then Denver piled on with bigger and better airports.

    The rise of air and truck cargo (along with the absence of unions) shifted a lot of shipping, logistics, and manufacturing to the South.

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  176. There is remarkably less shipping on the Great Lakes than I expected from “The Wreck of the Edmond Fitzgerald.” I lived on the 21st floor in Chicago for a couple of years and saw one freighter out my window the whole time.

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  177. @Steve Sailer
    Now that I think about it, the post 9/11 security added time probably really hurt cities that are sort of close to a lot of other place, but adding 90 minutes to the process increases the total travel time considerably. Los Angeles, in contrast, is so far from everywhere except Las Vegas, San Francisco, and Phoenix that the added time doesn't change much proportionally.

    but adding 90 minutes to the process increases the total travel time considerably.

    I was recently enveloped by an enormous mob at the Orlando Airport. I’ve never seen such a crowd in an airport before, and I first boarded an airplane in 1968 and have been in and out of DC, Seattle, and Austin, Tx in the years since enhanced security procedures were instituted. We were detained at security as well while our carry-on was placed in a queue and subject to a manual search (most people were not). From the time we stepped out of the cab to the time we sat down at the gate 40 minutes elapsed.

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  178. @anon
    Why did housing bypass Northeastern and Upper Midwest Central Cities after WW 2? Consider the following:

    1. There was a housing boom in the 1920's, which had a number of similarities to the early 2000's boom. There were a lot of large, expensive houses built, none of which had modern wiring or heating and were impractical for middle income single families. Post WW 2, people didn't want to live in old houses and the notion of a 'gut rehab' was considered silly.

    2. This was followed by a decade of very modest new home construction during the 1930's. It was the depression.

    3. This was followed by WW 2/1940's when there was no new construction due to the transformation of the economy to War production. And there was an acute housing shortage. 1950's may have been peak 'Central City' because thats all that was available. The only fact that is less obvious is that it took at least a full decade post WW 2 get the US fully running on what is remembered as the post war boom. For example, the first skyscraper built in Chicago since the final 20's boom buildings (finished in the early 30's) was the Prudential Building https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Prudential_Plaza. in 1955.

    4. Housing Projects? A 'well meaning' idea gone bad.

    5. Urban problems. Cities had political machines, drove up costs, were hard or impossible to reform, and could be avoided by simply moving to a suburb. Once people had cars, there was no compelling reason to put up with costs and issues. Not to mention that older, city housing wasn't particularly car friendly. Among other things, central business districts became inconvenient for shopping and entertainment shifted toward television, etc.

    6. Centralization of banking and finance. Older, commercial cities -- Cincinnati, St. Louis, Philadelphia, and especially Baltimore as well as cities with ports tended to be regional financial centers. By the 1990's the long term move toward mergers, acquisitions, and scale had put local financial institutions out of Business. As an example, Nationsbank ... soon to become Bank of America, bought up both of Baltimore's large, local banks (Maryland National and Equitable) and the City's most prominent Investment Bank, Alex Brown, was bought out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex._Brown_%26_Sons. Roughly the same thing occurred with Insurance. Even Chicago faced something similar with banking and insurance, although it is less obvious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_One_Corporation

    7. The rustbelt. It's easy to see in retrospect. But US monetary policy (strong dollar) and favored the businesses on the coasts to the detriment of center. The US Auto industry was gutted with the Yen @ 300-150 per $US. US capital intensive industry paid market rates for capital while Asian Tigers used predatory, Neo mercantilistic industrial policies (subsidized interest rates) to target the US market. It is still going on -- and one reason is that the US doesn't have an export driven economy. Smaller countries needed exports to take advantage of economies of scale, but the US had a sufficiently large domestic market. The result being that importers (including or especially consumers) weren't inclined to pay up to support an export oriented economy.

    Why did New York turn around? Don't underestimate the advantages of financial concentration and centralization of banking and finance and the fact that NY is the Worlds financial center. Enough money and all sorts of things become easy.

    Two points: The reason cities didn't decline more quickly was because of the relative lack of development between 1930 and 1955. More interesting than the decline of St Louis is the extent to which Chicago is still relatively wealthy. If you look at Detroit, the city is relatively small and was essentially abandon by the late 1960's. Same with Newark, Gary Indiana, East St Louis and many others. The real question is why that didn't happen to Chicago, for example. An answer is that the South Side and Austin are still part of the City and get municipal services. Without that, they would have met their Darwinian death with East St Louis and Gary.

    Another is that the largest employers in central cities are government services. But outside of that, the largest businesses are medical. US healthcare centers are dug into central cities like Baltimore. Hopkins is the largest employer in Baltimore and has their own police force/security. Health care has risen from under 10% of GDP to 17% or so, making it the most successful business in the US over the post war period.

    Finally -- restricting European immigration had its points. But the need for labor beginning with putting the US on a war footing in the late 1930's and the lack of European migrants led to the massive migration of Southern blacks to Northern US Cities.

    Finally — restricting European immigration had its points. But the need for labor beginning with putting the US on a war footing in the late 1930′s and the lack of European migrants led to the massive migration of Southern blacks to Northern US Cities.

    There’s also the fact that between WWI and WWII, the US lost 500K prime breeding age white males, who would have had children, whose children would have had children, and so on.

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  179. @anon
    Why did housing bypass Northeastern and Upper Midwest Central Cities after WW 2? Consider the following:

    1. There was a housing boom in the 1920's, which had a number of similarities to the early 2000's boom. There were a lot of large, expensive houses built, none of which had modern wiring or heating and were impractical for middle income single families. Post WW 2, people didn't want to live in old houses and the notion of a 'gut rehab' was considered silly.

    2. This was followed by a decade of very modest new home construction during the 1930's. It was the depression.

    3. This was followed by WW 2/1940's when there was no new construction due to the transformation of the economy to War production. And there was an acute housing shortage. 1950's may have been peak 'Central City' because thats all that was available. The only fact that is less obvious is that it took at least a full decade post WW 2 get the US fully running on what is remembered as the post war boom. For example, the first skyscraper built in Chicago since the final 20's boom buildings (finished in the early 30's) was the Prudential Building https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Prudential_Plaza. in 1955.

    4. Housing Projects? A 'well meaning' idea gone bad.

    5. Urban problems. Cities had political machines, drove up costs, were hard or impossible to reform, and could be avoided by simply moving to a suburb. Once people had cars, there was no compelling reason to put up with costs and issues. Not to mention that older, city housing wasn't particularly car friendly. Among other things, central business districts became inconvenient for shopping and entertainment shifted toward television, etc.

    6. Centralization of banking and finance. Older, commercial cities -- Cincinnati, St. Louis, Philadelphia, and especially Baltimore as well as cities with ports tended to be regional financial centers. By the 1990's the long term move toward mergers, acquisitions, and scale had put local financial institutions out of Business. As an example, Nationsbank ... soon to become Bank of America, bought up both of Baltimore's large, local banks (Maryland National and Equitable) and the City's most prominent Investment Bank, Alex Brown, was bought out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex._Brown_%26_Sons. Roughly the same thing occurred with Insurance. Even Chicago faced something similar with banking and insurance, although it is less obvious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_One_Corporation

    7. The rustbelt. It's easy to see in retrospect. But US monetary policy (strong dollar) and favored the businesses on the coasts to the detriment of center. The US Auto industry was gutted with the Yen @ 300-150 per $US. US capital intensive industry paid market rates for capital while Asian Tigers used predatory, Neo mercantilistic industrial policies (subsidized interest rates) to target the US market. It is still going on -- and one reason is that the US doesn't have an export driven economy. Smaller countries needed exports to take advantage of economies of scale, but the US had a sufficiently large domestic market. The result being that importers (including or especially consumers) weren't inclined to pay up to support an export oriented economy.

    Why did New York turn around? Don't underestimate the advantages of financial concentration and centralization of banking and finance and the fact that NY is the Worlds financial center. Enough money and all sorts of things become easy.

    Two points: The reason cities didn't decline more quickly was because of the relative lack of development between 1930 and 1955. More interesting than the decline of St Louis is the extent to which Chicago is still relatively wealthy. If you look at Detroit, the city is relatively small and was essentially abandon by the late 1960's. Same with Newark, Gary Indiana, East St Louis and many others. The real question is why that didn't happen to Chicago, for example. An answer is that the South Side and Austin are still part of the City and get municipal services. Without that, they would have met their Darwinian death with East St Louis and Gary.

    Another is that the largest employers in central cities are government services. But outside of that, the largest businesses are medical. US healthcare centers are dug into central cities like Baltimore. Hopkins is the largest employer in Baltimore and has their own police force/security. Health care has risen from under 10% of GDP to 17% or so, making it the most successful business in the US over the post war period.

    Finally -- restricting European immigration had its points. But the need for labor beginning with putting the US on a war footing in the late 1930's and the lack of European migrants led to the massive migration of Southern blacks to Northern US Cities.

    Why did housing bypass Northeastern and Upper Midwest Central Cities after WW 2? Consider the following:

    1. There was a housing boom in the 1920′s, which had a number of similarities to the early 2000′s boom. There were a lot of large, expensive houses built, none of which had modern wiring or heating and were impractical for middle income single families. Post WW 2, people didn’t want to live in old houses and the notion of a ‘gut rehab’ was considered silly.

    By 1922, shy of 60% of all dwellings were customers of power companies. (See the Statistical Abstract on this point. That refers to the extant housing stock, urban and rural. The notion that ‘large, expensive houses’ ‘none of which had modern wiring’ were being built anew in core cities beggars belief.

    3. This was followed by WW 2/1940′s when there was no new construction due to the transformation of the economy to War production. And there was an acute housing shortage. 1950′s may have been peak ‘Central City’ because thats all that was available. The only fact that is less obvious is that it took at least a full decade post WW 2 get the US fully running on what is remembered as the post war boom. For example, the first skyscraper built in Chicago since the final 20′s boom buildings (finished in the early 30′s) was the Prudential Building https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Prudential_Plaza. in 1955.

    There was a post-war reconversion recession during the period running from the fall of 1945 to the spring of 1947. There followed a brief and disappointing business cycle (1947-49). The business cycle running from 1949 to 1954 saw the most rapid expansion in production of any post-war cycle. The 1954-58 cycle was comparatively lackluster, as was the 1958-60 cycle. The 1960-70 cycle was robust, but not to the degree of the 1949-54 cycle. The Federal Housing Administration was founded in 1937. From 1948 to 1958, the annual number of housing starts ranged from 760,000 to 1.2 million, or 1.7x to 2.7x the level of 1940. That’s an excess of 10 million housing starts in a country which had about 40 million households.

    5. Urban problems. Cities had political machines, drove up costs, were hard or impossible to reform, and could be avoided by simply moving to a suburb. Once people had cars, there was no compelling reason to put up with costs and issues. Not to mention that older, city housing wasn’t particularly car friendly. Among other things, central business districts became inconvenient for shopping and entertainment shifted toward television, etc.

    Actually city machines were losing their dominance in the post-war era. See Edward Banfield on the economy of patronage jobs. (They were not necessarily costly and ineffectual either. See Chicago under Mayor Daley).

    6. Centralization of banking and finance. Older, commercial cities — Cincinnati, St. Louis, Philadelphia, and especially Baltimore as well as cities with ports tended to be regional financial centers. By the 1990′s the long term move toward mergers, acquisitions, and scale had put local financial institutions out of Business. As an example, Nationsbank … soon to become Bank of America, bought up both of Baltimore’s large, local banks (Maryland National and Equitable) and the City’s most prominent Investment Bank, Alex Brown, was bought out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex._Brown_%26_Sons. Roughly the same thing occurred with Insurance. Even Chicago faced something similar with banking and insurance, although it is less obvious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_One_Corporation

    There were two notable periods of financial consolidation: one which ran from 1929 to 1933 and one from about 1980 to 2010. Neither were contemporary with the efflorescence of suburban development. By the way, community banks and regional banks are still omnipresent, though half the asset value is now to be found in the four bulge-bracket banks.

    7. The rustbelt. It’s easy to see in retrospect. But US monetary policy (strong dollar) and favored the businesses on the coasts to the detriment of center. The US Auto industry was gutted with the Yen @ 300-150 per $US. US capital intensive industry paid market rates for capital while Asian Tigers used predatory, Neo mercantilistic industrial policies (subsidized interest rates) to target the US market. It is still going on — and one reason is that the US doesn’t have an export driven economy. Smaller countries needed exports to take advantage of economies of scale, but the US had a sufficiently large domestic market. The result being that importers (including or especially consumers) weren’t inclined to pay up to support an export oriented economy.

    The point of monetary policy after 1980 was to stabilize prices, not to favor coastal industries. What distinguished the United States from Japan and Germany was deficits of public and private savings which were met by foreign borrowing on the part of various parties, capital foreign savers were pleased to supply. One source of the savings deficit has been the absence of a value added tax in this country. The problems of the auto industry can be laid at the door of the deficiencies of those particular enterprises. While we’re at it, how has Japanese industrial policy been working out for them the last generation?

    Why did New York turn around? Don’t underestimate the advantages of financial concentration and centralization of banking and finance and the fact that NY is the Worlds financial center. Enough money and all sorts of things become easy.

    Go ahead and underestimate it. Value added in finance and insurance amounts to 6.5% of the whole outside the New York commuter belt, 16% within that belt. It’s an important local industry, but that’s all it is. The share of value-added in the economy as a whole attributable to finance and insurance (7.2%) is almost precisely the same as it was in 1998 (7.0%). The share attributable to that sector in the New York commuter belt is slightly lower now than it was in 2001 (17.6%). The economy as a whole did grow more oriented toward finance in the post-war period, but that process hit a plateau nearly 20 years ago and the balance between the New York commuter belt and the rest of the country has remained unchanged in that time. Consider the outside story: New York improved its standing because it acted to re-impose public order far more vigorously than any other city of consequence in the country, making its relative quality of life high. Baltimore City and New York City had similar homicide rates in 1980. By 2010, that in Baltimore exceed that in NYC by a factor of 7.

    Two points: The reason cities didn’t decline more quickly was because of the relative lack of development between 1930 and 1955.

    Again, crucial innovations in housing finance were developed during the Depression and there was ample housing development between 1947 and 1955.

    More interesting than the decline of St Louis is the extent to which Chicago is still relatively wealthy.

    St. Louis City accounts for about 20% of the population of the dense settlement as a whole. The City of Chicago accounts for 33%. About 35% of the City of Chicago’s population lives in violent neighborhoods. I’ll wager in St. Louis City, it’s more like 70%.

    If you look at Detroit, the city is relatively small and was essentially abandon by the late 1960′s.

    About 18% of the dense settlement lives in the City of Detroit. It was about 2x that in 1970. The watershed was Jerome Cavanaugh’s misbegotten tenure, especially the 1967 riots.

    Same with Newark, Gary Indiana, East St Louis and many others.

    Each of these is a small component of a much larger urban field. They’re not core cities of a discrete urban settlements. Newark accounts as we speak for 1.5% of the New York settlement, Gary accounts for 1% of the Chicago settlement, and East St. Louis accounts for about 20% of the Belleville settlement, which is in turn < 10% of the St. Louis commuter belt. Your slums have to go somewhere, and the dynamics process dumped them in these municipalities.

    The real question is why that didn’t happen to Chicago, for example. An answer is that the South Side and Austin are still part of the City and get municipal services. Without that, they would have met their Darwinian death with East St Louis and Gary.

    The answer to that is that the City of Chicago is the core city of the whole settlement, encompassing 36% thereof. It’s not a decrepit little component of that settlement like Gary.

    Another is that the largest employers in central cities are government services.

    In the unimportant sense that conventional statistics on income and employment treat ‘government services’ as a uniform category (comprising 15% of the workforce) while private employment is reported sector-by-sector (Manufacturing, 9%; Retail Trade, 10%; Finance and Insurance, 4.5%, etc).

    But outside of that, the largest businesses are medical. US healthcare centers are dug into central cities like Baltimore. Hopkins is the largest employer in Baltimore and has their own police force/security. Health care has risen from under 10% of GDP to 17% or so, making it the most successful business in the US over the post war period.

    ‘Health Care and Social Assistance’ account for 7.3% of value-added in the economy and 13% of employment. The ‘17%’ figure you see bruited about makes use of gross output in that sector in the numerator and gross domestic product in the denominator. It’s a misleading datum.

    Finally — restricting European immigration had its points. But the need for labor beginning with putting the US on a war footing in the late 1930′s and the lack of European migrants led to the massive migration of Southern blacks to Northern US Cities.

    The pre-war re-armament began in 1940, as did peace time conscription. The initial 18 months were a modest militarization compared to what prevailed after Pearl Harbor. There was no re-armament during the 1930s.

    You had several sorts of forces driving black migration northward: wage arbitrage, the relative decline of the agricultural economy (manifest in an absolute decline in farm employment over the period running from 1920 to 1940 and beyond), and a trigger-and-chain-migration pattern which began with cotton crop failures in 1915. All of these were extant prior to re-armament and, in fact, prior to advent of immigration restriction. I have no clue where you expected black labor leaving the agricultural sector to go.

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