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Bill Kristol and Charles Murray Debate Replacing Unsatisfactory White Working Class with Immigrants

If you can’t see this video on my blog, you can watch it at https://youtu.be/bs0h9ieLPyw?t=54m15s. Start at 54 minutes and 15 seconds in.

From American Renaissance:

Bill Kristol: ‘Lazy, Spoiled’ White Working Class Should Be Replaced by Immigrants

Henry Wolff, American Renaissance, February 8, 2017

A wide-ranging conversation with Charles Murray took an awkward turn Tuesday night when Weekly Standard editor Bill Kristol shared his view that white, working-class Americans should be replaced by immigrants.

Kristol wasn’t terribly bad on immigration in recent years, not as good as David Frum, but by no means awful. Unfortunately, that era seems to be ending:

… At one point, Dr. Murray explained how, though he never warmed to Donald Trump, the 2016 election did lead him to adopt a restrictionist position on low-skilled immigration. Dr. Kristol replied that he’d “actually sort of gone the opposite way on immigration.” …

He explained:

Look, to be totally honest, if things are so bad as you say with the white working class, don’t you want to get new Americans in? Seriously, you can make the case—this is going on too long and this is too crazy, probably, and I hope this thing isn’t being videotaped or ever shown anywhere. Whatever tiny, pathetic future I have is going to totally collapse.

Bill Kristol is pretty honest and unfiltered, not very suave or cunning. Refreshingly, he often just says whatever idea his emotions popped into his head at the moment.

After some awkward laughter from the audience, Dr. Kristol elaborated:

You can make a case that America has been great because every—I think John Adams said this—basically if you’re a free society, a capitalist society, after two or three generations of hard work everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever. Then, luckily, you have these waves of people coming in from Italy, Ireland, Russia, and now Mexico, who really want to work hard and really want to succeed and really want their kids to live better lives than them and aren’t sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth. In that respect, I don’t know how this moment is that different from the early 20th century.

… By contrast, Dr. Murray was sympathetic to the white working class. …

We as Americans owe an obligation to our fellow Americans . . . that should take priority over our obligation to the world’s population and globalization. So I’m in favor of limiting low-skilled immigration.

 
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  1. Do you want peasants with pitchforks?

    Because this is how you get peasants with pitchforks.

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    • Replies: @frayedthread
    Naaah. Peasants are way too drugged up to take up pitchforks. In America today, opium is the opium of the masses. Read up on Boxer Rebellion. And the Chinese weren't even facing population replacement on top of it.
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  2. Your Legacy America-phobia has to get up really early in the morning to make David Frum look good.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    David Frum has lost his mind over Putin, Trump, Le Pen and Brexit. He, Anne Applebaum and Michael McFaul are convinced any voices trying to talk sense to them are cyber phantasms sent by Putin to destroy the West. I'm so sick of the lot of them.
  3. Bill Kristol needs to be retired. He is odious and stupid too. Pilgrims=Sicilians=Meso-Americans!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Forbes
    Because nothing has changed since John Adams time...
  4. There is something weird going on with young workers. There is this segment that doesn’t want to learn the manly trades, but won’t tolerate the low wages of the clerical and retail work that’s left to them. They are undependable.

    And then there’s ag work. That there is hard work.

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    • Replies: @Drog
    There are a lot of hard working lower class whites.

    Yes, there is the segment that is indolent and spoiled.

    Whose to blame for that, though? Their parents, the government, Cultural Marxism, or what else?

    Kristol's argument is ignores the reality that the world crafted by previous generations is the world that spoils the child. So, in essence, what he wants is to push away the children of the past generations for the labors of a foreign who will fall into the same trap. Well thought through.

    If that's the case take your baby and punt it off a cliff. Turn around and hand the title of your property over to a complete stranger, because FUCK IT YOLO you're probably going to be a failure anyways. Just don't forget to tell the new guy, "This is your future, too."

    Or maybe it's because we have parasites that warp the culture? Maybe the culture needs to go through moments on INTERNAL SELF-EXAMINATION without foreign influence or interlocutors? How can a society ever work through it's problems if it never attempts to correct them, but instead ups the ante on the same past policies and folkways that created the current situation of indolent and spoiled youth? Another problem with Kristol's argument is that he takes a large broad brush and sweeps it over the white working class as if they are all the same. The reality is an uneven distribution.

    It need not be said that Kristol is a Jew, and of course, this plays into Kevin McDonald's theory of their evolutionary strategy. He despises populism because it means Jewish power is threatened.

    It doesn't really matter, in the end, we already cycling into an age of violence, political and criminal. I'm sure we will work something out then.
    , @someguy
    There is something wrong with our entire society, not just young people. Boomers would sell out their grand children in favor of illegals for a 1% increase in their 401k.

    The fact that Kristol has any platform at all tells you all you need to know about America. Israel gets 10 million a day in aid from America and is essentially a welfare parasite state, and this is how neocons pay back White Americans?
    , @Bill Jones
    try aaa.co.uk and its US equivalent.
    , @Right Wing Zealot
    Carol,
    "And then there's ag work."

    Which of course is done for the most part on highly mechanized farms, like the cotton farms of the High Plains of Texas or the wheat fields of the Midwest.

    Or is done by the hands of whites on dairy farms owned by Mennonites in the Midwest.

    Or is done by the hands of whites on farms owned by Amish in Ohio, Iowa, Indiana, Pennslyvania and Maryland.
    , @AndrewR
    So the solution is to flood the country with alien ethnic groups whose children will grow up to be far more toxic to society than spoiled middle class white kids could ever be?
    , @keltic1048
    And don't for the real hard work done in the oil and gas fields in this country. No days off for snow, rain, heat etc. And it's year round, 12 hr shifts when drilling or fracking. The only time they don't work is when there is too much lightning (those big metal machines tend to attract it). The undependable are not the avg. kid that doesn't care to go to college, it the ones that do, yet really aren't qualified for it, and do just enough to stay in with the help of parents money. Then when they get out, think they deserve some 8 hr. high paid job at a big desk right out of the gate.
    , @Jesse
    Forgive my language, but this is retarded.

    The free market, if it was let flourish, would take care of this. Can't get people to do work? Then improve the conditions, raise the wages, etc., until people are willing to do it.

    That is the FREE MARKET. Libertardarians and establishment conservatives seem to think it only applies when it guts people's wages and govt benefits.

  5. This has been going around the National Review crowd for a while now.

    I assume (((they))) expect to be kept in charge after replacing the white working class by their new serfs.

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  6. Bill Kristol could do some digging into how his Tribesmen, the Sacklers, systematically destroyed the white working class with opiates over the course of half a century.

    The Sacklers’ fortunes could be nationalized as reparations for all the damage they’ve done.

    Their “family fortune” only shows as about $14 billion…but I’ll bet one could get a few dollars auctioning off all their museums, educational departments, artworks, estates, etc., bought with their business model of converting family doctors to pushers.

    Make that a capital crime and a lot of problems would disappear overnight. For free. Then use the money to mop up the old problems.

    Put me in charge, and I’ll find people who can do a much cheaper job than the highly remunerated folks here:

    http://sackler.tufts.edu/Faculty-and-Research/Sackler-Program-Faculty

    https://en-med.tau.ac.il/

    http://www.med.nyu.edu/sackler/

    I’d especially like to be in charge of telling the Israeli school who they can and cannot hire.

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    • Replies: @Gandydancer
    Your application to join the SS has been received, but we'll have to perform background checks on you to confirm your pure Aryan ancestry.
  7. One of the unexpected byproducts of the information age is that conversations that used to go on behind closed doors are now had out in public. The old line was you never speak of religion or politics around the staff. The reason was that educated elites had to be free to consider all options and debate all options. To do so in front of the rabble would risk a revolt as the rabble could not appreciate the need for playing devil’s advocate, arguing for effect and simply enjoying the debate.

    Fifty years ago Murray and Kristol would have this debate on a college campus in front of other educated elites. Both would be free to take extreme positions just to test the other and score rhetorical points. Today dirtbags like me get to watch it on youtube while my old lady jacks up the corner of the doublewide.

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    • LOL: dc.sunsets, Clyde
    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    Except Kristol isn't just playing Devil's advocate. He really hates the white working class.
    , @TangoMan
    One of the unexpected byproducts of the information age is that conversations that used to go on behind closed doors are now had out in public.

    And of course there are the conversations which do go on behind closed doors which become public, to wit, Donald Sterling.

    So let's see, Sterling is held accountable for private conversations and Bill Kristol is given a pass for public statements.

    Blacks really are treated as Holy.
  8. I am sure it hasn’t escaped Mr. Kristol that treating a large swathe of the population with disdain isn’t a winning political strategy. He also doesn’t have the balls to run with this theory in regards to the replacement of urban blacks with Latin American immigrants and the supposed benefits of that.

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  9. Interesting comment. Now, I’m fairly sympathetic to the views of the alternative right on a number of issues. For instance, I think that countries should exist first and foremost for the well-being of their own citizens, a viewpoint which Steve here has referred to as “citizenism”. I think that in general multiculturalism has a host of potential drawbacks and that there’s certainly empirical evidence suggesting that more homogeneous countries such as Japan fare better by a variety of objective metrics. In particular, it seems like heterogeneity can certainly be a recipe for racial and ethnic tensions and the likes. And without any specific policy proscriptions in mind, at a high level I’m fundamentally in favor of restricting not just illegal immigration but also legal immigration as well for the United States.

    Having stated the above, I’ve also at times advocated both here and elsewhere a philosophy which I’ve referred to as cognitive elitism, the simple idea that cognitive capital matters tremendously, especially in an ever increasingly global and competitive society. I once stated that smart people in general probably feel more in common with other smart people than they do with the bottom halves of their respective ethnic bell curves. Race and ethnicity matter and perhaps matter the most, but certainly there are other dimensions along which tribal affiliations splinter, intelligence and ideology being a couple of obvious examples.

    I would argue that for instance China with its lack of political correctness and with a cognitive elitist worldview has approached topics such as intelligence and eugenics with much more boldness than perhaps we have here in the United States. Potentially uplifting your population through the science of modern genetics should be something worthwhile that a country should strive for, as opposed to being something perverse that we as a nation should frown upon. Interestingly enough, the alternative right has by and large focused on the racial and ethnic dimensions of the discussion more so than the cognitive dimension. I’ve even been accused somewhat negatively of being a eugenicist by others here!

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren’t replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations? Hard to argue in the abstract that the country as a whole wouldn’t be better off, leaving aside both the potential moral argument against such a policy and the obvious impracticality of putting such an idea to fruition. I assume Bill Kristol’s comments were made in semi-jest, but I think in general adopting an orientation more aligned with cognitive elitism may not be a bad way of trying to understand the nuances of modern 21st century global society.

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    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    I think this philosophy of "Cognitive Elitism" has always been around to some extent, what's unusual about it now is that high intelligence is being extolled as the greatest good, and such contempt for the "lower orders" is ever more brazenly discussed.

    But a head needs a body. Contempt can and will be met with contempt, and the victory doesn't go to the smartest, it goes to the strongest and most ruthless. Kristol's remarks show not only the vanity of our own "Cognitive Elite" but it also shows the lack of connection our cognitive elite feels for its fellow countrymen.

    This is an idea I have seen elsewhere on the right. The basic idea is that the broad lower and lower middle of white America isn't doing anything but getting fat and taking drugs, so, you know what, why don't you just die out and we'll bring in a bunch of people from Latin America and Asia who will work hard. (And, incidentally, enrich us.) The instrumentality of this POV is breathtaking.
    , @Alec Leamas
    Regression to the mean is a big problem with this view. The 140 IQ Pakistani Brain Surgeon is eminently capable of blessing his new country with a 100 IQ layabout.

    The premium of Asian intelligence over white American intelligence is negligible and all but disappears with some preference for northern European whites. (and, of course, the reported numbers rely upon the honesty of shame cultures including China).

    I wouldn't say that immigration with a eugenic aim isn't worthwhile, but that you would really need to drill down and think about how you would make a lasting beneficial impact balanced against societal cohesion.
    , @slumber_j

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution?
     
    Deported them to where, exactly?

    How about instead considering a more practically workable thought experiment that entails the deportation--or even better, non-admission--of the lamest people who are here or want to be here illegally? For starters.
    , @DJohn1
    While anyone of moderate IQ or higher can see the purported and potential upsides to positive eugenics or what you call cognitive elitism, there's a very clear downside as well.

    The smart don't breed.

    Just as excess wealth invariably triggers societal collapse, excess IQ leads to reproductive collapse. Societal and cognitive rises and falls are almost perfectly synced in a sine wave.
    , @MadDog
    Until you are elderly and require care. Or you are elderly and wish to take a daily walk. Then you find out that these people of a different race will abuse you as a patient. Or attack you as you walk.

    Don't fool yourself. I don't fear lower class whites as caregivers. And I don't fear them as I take a walk.

    I'm smart enough to know that the "other" that you have introduced to America or Europe for that matter, will take advantage of my feebleness.

    I'm not old but one sees this daily with elderly whites, abused by nonwhite caregivers and abused by said persons if they take a stroll.
    , @Twinkie
    Shared ancestry is great. Share religion is great too. High IQ is wonderful. All those are important traits. But what *I* want for our country's elites is a group of people who care about their fellow citizens who happen to be their cognitive- and socio-economic inferiors, in other words an elite that possesses noblesse oblige. That, I value more than shared ancestry, shared religion, and high IQ in our leadership class.

    Whether high IQ or low IQ, bringing in a large number of foreigners (ones who don't assimilate as well as previous cohorts of immigrants) to replace the native workforce is completely inimical to that notion of that elite noblesse oblige. That's feudal lords replacing one set of peasants with a more docile set (which, in the end, is actually harmful for the lords as well).

    I want to see an elite class that, say in times of war, sends its sons to die first with pistols in hand, leading their more ordinary countrymen. After all, what is leadership for, if not to wield it to better one's country and all of its citizens? Otherwise it's just parasitic banditry.

    And I write this as a former immigrant and a naturalized American.
    , @Miro23

    ... but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren’t replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations?
     
    Another question:

    What would happen if a family disowned and turned out on the street its least capable child, and adopted a brighter one?

    Answer: You would no longer have a family.
    , @Discard
    Importing a high functioning minority gave us Bill Kristol. We are not better off for it.
    , @AndrewR
    If that were true, intelligent blacks wouldn't be overwhelmingly tribal in their ideology.

    Then again, a black in the 90th IQ percentile for their ethnic group is barely more intelligent than the average white.

    , @ben tillman

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren’t replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations? Hard to argue in the abstract that the country as a whole wouldn’t be better off....
     
    Actually, it's quite simple to do so. The nation would be smaller, and there would be fewer copies of its members' genetic structures. Obviously, if a nation wished to pursue eugenics for its benefit, it would replace its lesser lights with its own stellar individuals.

    Your proposal, like everything you have said over the years, is designed to benefit your race at whites' expense.
  10. If he thinks the white working class should be replaced what does he want done with blacks, death squads?

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    • Agree: BB753, Old fogey
    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Why would he want to dispose of blacks? They are not seen as a rival/threat.
    , @Gandydancer
    To be fair, Kristol doesn't call for anyone in the working class to be "replaced", except as an economic vanguard. So, no, he's not implying any need for death squads. And he makes no exceptions for his own ethny from those that have become fat and lazy, though he doesn't list it, either (assuming you don't count Ashkenazi among "Russians").

    Nor does he exclude Negros from the working class that needs this injection of vigor, so the headline, "Bill Kristol and Charles Murray Debate Replacing Unsatisfactory White Working Class with Immigrants" has more than one flaw.

  11. I don’t suppose Kristol perceives that many of us view him as the decadent, lazy and spoiled scion whose bed was feathered by his forbears?

    How obtuse and sheltered can this guy possibly be?

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    • Replies: @I laugh at your shit
    "I don’t suppose Kristol perceives that many of us view him as the decadent, lazy and spoiled scion whose bed was feathered by his forbears?"

    Exactly. Has Bill Kristol ever worked a day in his life?
    , @The Millennial Falcon
    Watching him sprawled on a chair with a big beer belly lamenting his "tiny, pathetic future" while he's got an untouchable legacy sinecure and criticizing the white working class as lazy and decadent and in need of replacement is just too much to believe.

    I'm wondering if Bill Kristol is shifting into performance art. I call this one "Elitist in Repose."
  12. “really want to succeed and really want their kids to live better lives than them and aren’t sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth”

    Anyone who has read The Millionaire Next Door knows full well that a “great defense” of one’s income, including coupon clipping, is a part of the path to building wealth.

    I suppose Kristol would like for us to overpay for goods and services.

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    • Replies: @EriK
    I assumed he meant clipping bond coupons.
    , @Crawfurdmuir

    "sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth"
     
    It's interesting to note the change in meaning of "clipping coupons." Probably this has to do with the disappearance of bearer bonds (no new ones were issued after the passage of TEFRA in 1986). I think I last clipped bond coupons in about 2005, when the last of my bearer bonds matured. "Clipping coupons" used to be a sort of abbreviation for collecting a passive income.
    , @Mokiki
    Well somebody has to pay retail.
  13. Look, to be totally honest, if things are so bad as you say with the white working class, don’t you want to get new Americans in?

    The lack of empathy with Americans who are not new – ie the descendants of those who built the country that Jews like Kristol’s ancestors wanted to move to – and the idea that anyone who is imported instantly a “new American” reveal the neocon mentality. There is no more reasoning with neocons than there is with Antifa tolerance squads. They hate the people of the West with every fibre of their being. Frum is no better. If you doubt that read his Twitter account.

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    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Frum is much better on immigration (see, for example: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/refugees/419976/ ). But, like Michael Dougherty, he's essentially pro-Trumpism but anti-Trump. Snobbery is the only explanation I can think of for their antipathy to Trump.
    , @Anon
    Bill Kristol lacks empathy for most Americans because he has no ties of blood and little of culture with the great mass of Americans. All of Kristol's grandparents were Jewish emigrants from Europe or Russia. He has not a drop of ancestry from the old Anglo-Saxon bloodlines of this country. Kristol's ancestors never went through any of the American experience before the 20th century, so everything that happened here from 1620 to around 1914 is terra incognita to both he and his family. His ancestors never fought in the Revolutionary War, or the Civil War, or pioneered in the West. Heck, neither he nor his ancestors ever moved outside the east coast Beltway. He just doesn't get American culture or the American people at all.

    He's a foreigner looking at this country from the outside even though he lives here. Even in the US, Jews in the early part of the 20th century tended to be recent immigrants who lived in Jewish-only enclaves, and that sort of isolation caused them to retain many of the beliefs and cultural habits that they learned in the old country. He shows the sort of isolationist mindset characteristic of tightly-knit in-groups such as gypsies or the Amish, and he is a lousy judge of anything outside his in-group. Kristol's mindset is that of callow Russian Jewish peasant from the Pale, not that of an American, and he doesn't know it.
    , @Forbes
    I guess Kristol was asleep when Tony Blair/Gordon Brown got new Britons in. How'd that work out?
  14. I have a dream that Bill Kristol’s opinion will no longer matter…

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    • Replies: @MarcB
    He'll remain viable as phony opposition to Leftists in the MSM because he's one of the good one's. They trotted out Kristol and his fellow NeoCon/RINO travelers during the rise of the Tea Party as an example of how conservatives should be. The media warned viewers that Tea Partiers were veering too close to the John Birch Society with their nod to a slightly more nationalist conservatism than the what the RNC was peddling.

    I don't know how much of career he has within Conservatism, Inc., but his brand was already severely damaged due to his less than measured his response (apoplectic rage) to the Trump Phenomenon and the coinciding implosion of Neoconservatism. The smart Neo's are staying off the radar, taking a more conciliatory tone, or even arguing the merits of some of Trump's policies in hopes of having some influence in a New Republican Party. Bill K. is taking a scorched earth approach.
  15. @guest
    Your Legacy America-phobia has to get up really early in the morning to make David Frum look good.

    David Frum has lost his mind over Putin, Trump, Le Pen and Brexit. He, Anne Applebaum and Michael McFaul are convinced any voices trying to talk sense to them are cyber phantasms sent by Putin to destroy the West. I’m so sick of the lot of them.

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    • Replies: @Massimo Heitor

    David Frum has lost his mind over Putin, Trump, Le Pen and Brexit.
     
    A year ago, I was a big fan of David Frum. I bought and read one of his books, he was sort of a hero of mine.

    Frum's opposition to Trump is so intense and so extreme, that I've regularly second guessed myself and thought that maybe Trump really is this great danger and I missed it. In hindsight, I think Frum just lost his mind, or at least lost his cool and his reasonable nature over Trump and Brexit and Le Pen. Many of the things he is saying are just so completely unreasonable.
  16. @carol
    There is something weird going on with young workers. There is this segment that doesn't want to learn the manly trades, but won't tolerate the low wages of the clerical and retail work that's left to them. They are undependable.

    And then there's ag work. That there is hard work.

    There are a lot of hard working lower class whites.

    Yes, there is the segment that is indolent and spoiled.

    Whose to blame for that, though? Their parents, the government, Cultural Marxism, or what else?

    Kristol’s argument is ignores the reality that the world crafted by previous generations is the world that spoils the child. So, in essence, what he wants is to push away the children of the past generations for the labors of a foreign who will fall into the same trap. Well thought through.

    If that’s the case take your baby and punt it off a cliff. Turn around and hand the title of your property over to a complete stranger, because FUCK IT YOLO you’re probably going to be a failure anyways. Just don’t forget to tell the new guy, “This is your future, too.”

    Or maybe it’s because we have parasites that warp the culture? Maybe the culture needs to go through moments on INTERNAL SELF-EXAMINATION without foreign influence or interlocutors? How can a society ever work through it’s problems if it never attempts to correct them, but instead ups the ante on the same past policies and folkways that created the current situation of indolent and spoiled youth? Another problem with Kristol’s argument is that he takes a large broad brush and sweeps it over the white working class as if they are all the same. The reality is an uneven distribution.

    It need not be said that Kristol is a Jew, and of course, this plays into Kevin McDonald’s theory of their evolutionary strategy. He despises populism because it means Jewish power is threatened.

    It doesn’t really matter, in the end, we already cycling into an age of violence, political and criminal. I’m sure we will work something out then.

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    • Replies: @bomag

    How can a society ever work through it’s problems if it never attempts to correct them, but instead ups the ante on the same past policies and folkways that created the current situation of indolent and spoiled youth?
     
    This.

    And the current class of immigrant child falls into the "deplorable" slot in record time.`
  17. Kristol and Murray should address new politicians instead of new workers. Those politicians, with Kristol and his neo-con gang aiding and abetting through PNAC and other channels, set back America and Americans. Jack Ma said that we wasted trillions on wars and it is hard to disagree with that. As much as I find Kristol odious, I do hope that his debate performance is one of those 47% deplorable moments that galvanizes opinions to do something about him and his ilk.

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    • Replies: @Marat
    It hasn't [publically] occurred to Kristol that it is the elite that needs replacent. [Privately], this realization probably consumes most of his waking computing cycles as he races to deny it.
    , @Barnard
    I think Kristol has hit the Al Gore "let it rip" phase of his career. He turned the Weekly Standard over to Steve Hayes after the election and I think has mostly been driven out of the cable news talking head circuit all together. These are his unfiltered thoughts, he understands his influence has been so diminished there is no reason to hedge or mince words. As Bob Dylan said, "when you ain't got nothing, you've got nothing to lose."

    After this quote, which was part of a rambling answer he gave to a question in the audience, he asked Murray if he wanted to make a rebuttal. Murray quickly moved onto the next question. Later Kristol joked about hoping they were serving hard liquor at the reception after the Q&A.
  18. Well, this is what the elite always thought, they are just saying it out loud now.

    However, I doubt they want a “more satisfactory working class”, they just want people who will work more for less.

    In a way, it is true that each new wave “works harder”. But it is also that the quality of the work performed decays. Mexicans are cheaper. But they are not going to take us to the moon, so to speak.

    And after the Mexicans? Somalians?

    Then you have the case of Europe, where the Muslims are not even replacing the working class, as they are in large part living on welfare or other forms of fraud.

    So in the end, I doubt this is about economics. They really just want to “watch the world burn”.

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    • Replies: @JackOH
    "However, I doubt they [our elites] want a “more satisfactory working class”, they just want people who will work more for less."

    Dumbo, you're right. I'm watching a once well-regarded local organization being beaten down by a vicious, unscrupulous management. It's an ugly sight. Good people are leaving, those who remain are embittered, the replacement workers damn well know they're being used, and quality and reputation have taken a serious hit. All management cares about is labor costs.

    Our political and managerial elites need to ask how they've acted so as to make the notion of work force replacement by mass immigration sound rational. That slobs like Kristol can talk national suicide staggers me.
  19. Come on! Give Bill Kristol a break. His Modest Proposal For preventing Poor White People From being a Burthen to Their Leaders or Country is a good laugh.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

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  20. Talk about hostile elites. He certainly doesn’t view the white working class as his countrymen.

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  21. It’s “America First”, not the “American People First” dammit! It’s the American air (as I breath it), the American dirt (as I wash it off my pristine hands), the American ideology (as I see it), the American the American …. the American feels (as I feel it)! Anything but the actual citizens!

    Because, obviously, the citizens have nothing at all to do with the nation. It’s much more important that I can live in a wonderful world where actual people take second place to everything else in importance and concern (I don’t really like people all that much… especially the ones that live in my America… unless they are Kristolish of course… generally I much prefer BIG IDEAS like AMERICA over people).

    “New” Americans!? Yes!!! Elephant gods and turbans are as American as motherhood! Cutting off the ears of one’s wife for looking at another guy for too long is as American as baseball! Jihad and cliterectomies are as American as apple pie.

    As long as it’s done by New Americans in America, it’s American by definition! Bring them in and bring them in quickly. I can’t stand another minute of America as it is!

    Because… because… well… I don’t really feel like I belong here. With the current crop of Americans that is. Truth be told I hate them.

    Read More
  22. Nobody understands a goddamn thing. We don’t prefer the white working class because they’re hard-working or moral or good-looking or whatever. We prefer them because civilization will function with them in it, and not with mexicans or africans.

    No matter how fat and lazy and ugly a redneck, he’ll fit in our society a thousand times better than a hard working member of a different race. This in the end is what it comes down to.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yan Shen

    No matter how fat and lazy and ugly a redneck, he’ll fit in our society a thousand times better than a hard working member of a different race. This in the end is what it comes down to.
     
    I actually disagree with this and in fact would argue that it can be proven to be empirically false. Race and ethnicity matter yes, but as I've argued that the fallacy of some on the alternative right is that these are somehow the only dimensions of tribal affiliation. I would argue that in fact in today's increasingly global and interconnected society, intelligence has also become increasingly more relevant as well. Think of social compatibility as a multi-variable function where race and ethnicity may in fact be the two most important factors but certainly other salient attributes matter as well.

    That being said, I've stated that I don't really have any specific policy ideas in mind about how we as a nation or any nation in particular would adopt a more cognitive elitist point of view, although I've brought up China's approach towards eugenics as something admirable.

    In general, sentiments like the one espoused above represent a fundamental fallacy that I believe is worth pointing out.

    , @Opinionator
    Can't we just prefer them because they are our people, our family? End of argument?
    , @Bill Jones
    Societies succeed because they’ve built up, usually over centuries, a widely accepted and practiced set of behaviors; social capital built up of predictable actions and attitudes and beliefs: The core of the culture.

    Immigrants; who do not have that ingrained culture are likely to be destructive of social capital and destructive to the host society. Despite the gibberish of the lunatic left most people recognize this and quite rightly reject the attempt to destroy their society in pursuit of a crazed political fantasy.
  23. Are their pieces all in place?

    Do they really not care who knows their plans now?

    Jews and those with low IQs; allies separated by a common enemy – white guys.

    Read More
  24. Was this the John Adams quote that Kristol referred to? If so, he completely (and obviously) misconstrued it:

    I must study Politicks and War that my sons may have liberty to study Mathematicks and Philosophy. My sons ought to study Mathematicks and Philosophy, Geography, natural History, Naval Architecture, navigation, Commerce and Agriculture, in order to give their Children a right to study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary, Tapestry and Porcelaine.

    –Letter from John Adams to Abigail Adams, post 12 May 1780

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    Don't take it at face value. That was the sort of thing that got you Ye Olde Piece of Aff in the 1700s.
    , @ATX Hipster

    in order to give their Children a right to study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary, Tapestry and Porcelain
     
    "...in order to give their Children a right to study Womyn's Studies, LGBT Studies, and Masked Rioting Studies, and learn to hate their Forefathers and everything we've built."


    BTW, did the capitalization of all nouns come to English from German? And when did English lose that?

    , @AndrewR
    And those who study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary, Tapestry and Porcelaine will be conquered by foreigners who study Politicks and War.
  25. What’s Kristol’s feelings about the Jewish working class in Israel?

    Pretty sure he doesn’t want to replace them with hard-working Mexicans. No, that wouldn’t do because they’re, well, family, right.

    We have an elite who care nothing of the people because the people aren’t “their” people.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Forbes
    We're all tribal/clannish/nativist in the end. Me thinks it comes from birth and blood and family. Like evolution. Funny that. Should be plain as day. The Utopian statists (Kristol) always have other ideas that they conjure in their imagination.
  26. @carol
    There is something weird going on with young workers. There is this segment that doesn't want to learn the manly trades, but won't tolerate the low wages of the clerical and retail work that's left to them. They are undependable.

    And then there's ag work. That there is hard work.

    There is something wrong with our entire society, not just young people. Boomers would sell out their grand children in favor of illegals for a 1% increase in their 401k.

    The fact that Kristol has any platform at all tells you all you need to know about America. Israel gets 10 million a day in aid from America and is essentially a welfare parasite state, and this is how neocons pay back White Americans?

    Read More
    • Agree: Opinionator
    • Replies: @Anon
    I think the people wanting the emigrants here and their 401K better off are the segment of the boomers who don't have grandchildren. They are probably divorced or were never married, and they either didn't have children or they're aliened from their own children because the latter resented being raised in a divorced family with all the psychological mess that entails.

    These boomers have moved so much in their lives that they have no sense of community and don't know their neighbors. They don't live near their blood kin and rarely see them. They don't belong to social clubs or voluntary organizations. They are truly atomized people. They're what you get when all of a normal society's ties have broken down. They are honestly capable of feeling more empathy for some woeful-looking immigrant they seen on a TV news story than someone they work with every day. They feel betrayed or abandoned by the people in their life, so they don't feel any need to defend their kin or their nation state.

    The people I know who are hardcore liberals all have a history of trouble in the relationships they had with their own parents, or in their relationships they have with their spouses, ex- or otherwise, and their children, or else they didn't marry or have kids at all.

    , @Jack Highlands
    " . . . Israel . . . 'neocons' . . ."

    Frum, Kristol et al are launched on a trajectory that cannot be reversed now. Chrysostomous suggests Kristol retire, but many of us see his presence as quite useful. In any case, it is inevitable: Kristol or 'one' just like him.

    "The line it is drawn, the curse it is cast."
  27. @Yan Shen
    Interesting comment. Now, I'm fairly sympathetic to the views of the alternative right on a number of issues. For instance, I think that countries should exist first and foremost for the well-being of their own citizens, a viewpoint which Steve here has referred to as "citizenism". I think that in general multiculturalism has a host of potential drawbacks and that there's certainly empirical evidence suggesting that more homogeneous countries such as Japan fare better by a variety of objective metrics. In particular, it seems like heterogeneity can certainly be a recipe for racial and ethnic tensions and the likes. And without any specific policy proscriptions in mind, at a high level I'm fundamentally in favor of restricting not just illegal immigration but also legal immigration as well for the United States.

    Having stated the above, I've also at times advocated both here and elsewhere a philosophy which I've referred to as cognitive elitism, the simple idea that cognitive capital matters tremendously, especially in an ever increasingly global and competitive society. I once stated that smart people in general probably feel more in common with other smart people than they do with the bottom halves of their respective ethnic bell curves. Race and ethnicity matter and perhaps matter the most, but certainly there are other dimensions along which tribal affiliations splinter, intelligence and ideology being a couple of obvious examples.

    I would argue that for instance China with its lack of political correctness and with a cognitive elitist worldview has approached topics such as intelligence and eugenics with much more boldness than perhaps we have here in the United States. Potentially uplifting your population through the science of modern genetics should be something worthwhile that a country should strive for, as opposed to being something perverse that we as a nation should frown upon. Interestingly enough, the alternative right has by and large focused on the racial and ethnic dimensions of the discussion more so than the cognitive dimension. I've even been accused somewhat negatively of being a eugenicist by others here!

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren't replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations? Hard to argue in the abstract that the country as a whole wouldn't be better off, leaving aside both the potential moral argument against such a policy and the obvious impracticality of putting such an idea to fruition. I assume Bill Kristol's comments were made in semi-jest, but I think in general adopting an orientation more aligned with cognitive elitism may not be a bad way of trying to understand the nuances of modern 21st century global society.

    I think this philosophy of “Cognitive Elitism” has always been around to some extent, what’s unusual about it now is that high intelligence is being extolled as the greatest good, and such contempt for the “lower orders” is ever more brazenly discussed.

    But a head needs a body. Contempt can and will be met with contempt, and the victory doesn’t go to the smartest, it goes to the strongest and most ruthless. Kristol’s remarks show not only the vanity of our own “Cognitive Elite” but it also shows the lack of connection our cognitive elite feels for its fellow countrymen.

    This is an idea I have seen elsewhere on the right. The basic idea is that the broad lower and lower middle of white America isn’t doing anything but getting fat and taking drugs, so, you know what, why don’t you just die out and we’ll bring in a bunch of people from Latin America and Asia who will work hard. (And, incidentally, enrich us.) The instrumentality of this POV is breathtaking.

    Read More
    • Agree: Forbes
    • Replies: @Dumbo

    But a head needs a body
     
    "The mediator between the Head and the Hand must be the Heart".

    It's not a new idea. But the current elite has no "heart"; they just don't care.

    https://youtu.be/yeaVxvLyRhE?t=1h56m2s
    , @oddsbodkins
    Kristol seems to think that he is part of the cognitive elite. Nearly everything he has written over the past 20 years suggests otherwise.
    , @snorlax

    I think this philosophy of “Cognitive Elitism” has always been around to some extent
     
    Yeah, and if anything it's been stronger or at least more open in the past (i.e. H.L. Mencken). But the difference is back then the ugliest it ever got was "flooding in Mississippi? Let 'em drown!"

    (The other difference is that back then it was HBD-aware cognitive elitism, which is a very different and far more rational beast than the cultlike world of politically-correct cognitive elitism).
  28. @Matra
    Look, to be totally honest, if things are so bad as you say with the white working class, don’t you want to get new Americans in?

    The lack of empathy with Americans who are not new - ie the descendants of those who built the country that Jews like Kristol's ancestors wanted to move to - and the idea that anyone who is imported instantly a "new American" reveal the neocon mentality. There is no more reasoning with neocons than there is with Antifa tolerance squads. They hate the people of the West with every fibre of their being. Frum is no better. If you doubt that read his Twitter account.

    Frum is much better on immigration (see, for example: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/refugees/419976/ ). But, like Michael Dougherty, he’s essentially pro-Trumpism but anti-Trump. Snobbery is the only explanation I can think of for their antipathy to Trump.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Frum is much better on immigration (see, for example: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/refugees/419976/ ). But, like Michael Dougherty, he’s essentially pro-Trumpism but anti-Trump. Snobbery is the only explanation I can think of for their antipathy to Trump.

    Or he isn't really that sincere about it. I think we have to conclude he's playing more of a gatekeeper/controlled opposition role (possibly subconsciously) in US politics. At the end of the day, he is just too anxious about Gentile nationalism to pull the lever for it when given the opportunity.

    It is a little bit reminiscent of jews who criticize "the occupation" or Israel but won't support any actions that would actually bring pressure to bear, if those actions would actually be implemented.
    , @IHTG
    I believe it's not exactly "snobbery", but more accurately a constitutional inability to recognize the concept that "brute masculinity" is a valid and potentially successful leadership strategy for a national leader.

    It's particularly ironic in Dougherty's case. No doubt many of the great Catholic monarchs of yore that he venerates had Trump-like personalities.

  29. @kihowi
    Nobody understands a goddamn thing. We don't prefer the white working class because they're hard-working or moral or good-looking or whatever. We prefer them because civilization will function with them in it, and not with mexicans or africans.

    No matter how fat and lazy and ugly a redneck, he'll fit in our society a thousand times better than a hard working member of a different race. This in the end is what it comes down to.

    No matter how fat and lazy and ugly a redneck, he’ll fit in our society a thousand times better than a hard working member of a different race. This in the end is what it comes down to.

    I actually disagree with this and in fact would argue that it can be proven to be empirically false. Race and ethnicity matter yes, but as I’ve argued that the fallacy of some on the alternative right is that these are somehow the only dimensions of tribal affiliation. I would argue that in fact in today’s increasingly global and interconnected society, intelligence has also become increasingly more relevant as well. Think of social compatibility as a multi-variable function where race and ethnicity may in fact be the two most important factors but certainly other salient attributes matter as well.

    That being said, I’ve stated that I don’t really have any specific policy ideas in mind about how we as a nation or any nation in particular would adopt a more cognitive elitist point of view, although I’ve brought up China’s approach towards eugenics as something admirable.

    In general, sentiments like the one espoused above represent a fundamental fallacy that I believe is worth pointing out.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Opinionator
    That being said, I’ve stated that I don’t really have any specific policy ideas in mind about how we as a nation or any nation in particular would adopt a more cognitive elitist point of view

    We don't need to "adopt a more cognitive elitist point of view." We have enough cognitive talent as is within our borders.
    , @Citizen of a Silly Country
    I would argue that in fact in today’s increasingly global and interconnected society, intelligence has also become increasingly more relevant as well.

    First, you forget regression to the mean. But there's something far more important than IQ. I'll leave it to Mr. Kipling to educate you:

    The Stranger within my gate,
    He may be true or kind,
    But he does not talk my talk–
    I cannot feel his mind.
    I see the face and the eyes and the mouth,
    But not the soul behind.

    The men of my own stock,
    They may do ill or well,
    But they tell the lies I am wanted to,
    They are used to the lies I tell;
    And we do not need interpreters
    When we go to buy or sell.

    The Stranger within my gates,
    He may be evil or good,
    But I cannot tell what powers control–
    What reasons sway his mood;
    Nor when the Gods of his far-off land
    Shall repossess his blood.

    The men of my own stock,
    Bitter bad they may be,
    But, at least, they hear the things I hear,
    And see the things I see;
    And whatever I think of them and their likes
    They think of the likes of me.

    This was my father’s belief
    And this is also mine:
    Let the corn be all one sheaf–
    And the grapes be all one vine,
    Ere our children’s teeth are set on edge
    By bitter bread and wine.
    , @Alec Leamas
    Rednecks are incredibly resourceful people. They "make do" with little and are on the whole ready, willing and able to take care of themselves and their kin if you leave them be. There's a certain applied intelligence that may not show up in verbal or mathematical measures but which is nonetheless apparent if you spend any time with them.
    , @Discard
    How would anybody named "Yan Shen" know whether or not a redneck would fit into American society? I would not presume to tell him whether or not a coolie would fit into Chinese society. Your arrogance argues against your being here.
    , @Olorin

    I would argue that in fact in today’s increasingly global and interconnected society, intelligence has also become increasingly more relevant as well.
     
    Yan Shen! Yan Shen!

    This is the Cognitive Elite police!

    Step away from Wired and PC World!

    I repeat--step away!

    Drop the CHIP and Computerworld!

    Keep your hands where we can see them!

    Repeat--step away from the tech-fi mags before you further injure your powers of judgment and thus impair the American cognitive elites' g!

    Now meet me out back and show me how to hack together a wood splitting machine from crap found in the weeds behind the barn. While telling me family stories about your local hills and hollers going back centuries that bear directly on your engineering and fabrication of the same.

    I whizz on your Global Interconnected Society from a great height...and will continue till the next time my roof collapses from the snow and the editor of Mac World shows up within 10 minutes to help, with all the right tools, all the right instincts, a kickass work ethic, a Stanley growler of hot espresso, a sack of sammiches and elk sausage, and no expectation of reward because Hey, Man, We're All Family And Hell, Olorin, You've Done The Same For Me And Mine, Buddy.

    , @The Anti-Gnostic
    In my experience the average Anglo-Celt redneck grasps concepts like the common law and property all the way down to his bones, while even intelligent Asians and Middle Easterners are baffled by the notion that Law exists apart from the State.
    , @Chrisnonymous

    the fallacy of some on the alternative right is that these are somehow the only dimensions of tribal affiliation.
     
    The problem with this theory is that the cognitive elite are currently living parasitically off traditional nation-states and groups composed of ethnic affiliation. It's true that Harvard and the SF Bay area are composed of tribes of a sort, but those tribes' meaning--what ethnicity provides to citizens--is derived from being located in and separate from broader non-cognitive elite societies. So the notion of building a state based on this kind of tribal affiliation is wrong-headed.

    Aside from issues like resource scarcity and social status, just look at the globalizing entertainment industry, which is becoming ever more technically adept but turning out more and more dreck. Brains gets you nowhere without culture.

    Now, if you want to talk about raising a nation's average IQ as a goal, that is another matter. It doesn't have to be done through immigration.
  30. @Yan Shen
    Interesting comment. Now, I'm fairly sympathetic to the views of the alternative right on a number of issues. For instance, I think that countries should exist first and foremost for the well-being of their own citizens, a viewpoint which Steve here has referred to as "citizenism". I think that in general multiculturalism has a host of potential drawbacks and that there's certainly empirical evidence suggesting that more homogeneous countries such as Japan fare better by a variety of objective metrics. In particular, it seems like heterogeneity can certainly be a recipe for racial and ethnic tensions and the likes. And without any specific policy proscriptions in mind, at a high level I'm fundamentally in favor of restricting not just illegal immigration but also legal immigration as well for the United States.

    Having stated the above, I've also at times advocated both here and elsewhere a philosophy which I've referred to as cognitive elitism, the simple idea that cognitive capital matters tremendously, especially in an ever increasingly global and competitive society. I once stated that smart people in general probably feel more in common with other smart people than they do with the bottom halves of their respective ethnic bell curves. Race and ethnicity matter and perhaps matter the most, but certainly there are other dimensions along which tribal affiliations splinter, intelligence and ideology being a couple of obvious examples.

    I would argue that for instance China with its lack of political correctness and with a cognitive elitist worldview has approached topics such as intelligence and eugenics with much more boldness than perhaps we have here in the United States. Potentially uplifting your population through the science of modern genetics should be something worthwhile that a country should strive for, as opposed to being something perverse that we as a nation should frown upon. Interestingly enough, the alternative right has by and large focused on the racial and ethnic dimensions of the discussion more so than the cognitive dimension. I've even been accused somewhat negatively of being a eugenicist by others here!

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren't replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations? Hard to argue in the abstract that the country as a whole wouldn't be better off, leaving aside both the potential moral argument against such a policy and the obvious impracticality of putting such an idea to fruition. I assume Bill Kristol's comments were made in semi-jest, but I think in general adopting an orientation more aligned with cognitive elitism may not be a bad way of trying to understand the nuances of modern 21st century global society.

    Regression to the mean is a big problem with this view. The 140 IQ Pakistani Brain Surgeon is eminently capable of blessing his new country with a 100 IQ layabout.

    The premium of Asian intelligence over white American intelligence is negligible and all but disappears with some preference for northern European whites. (and, of course, the reported numbers rely upon the honesty of shame cultures including China).

    I wouldn’t say that immigration with a eugenic aim isn’t worthwhile, but that you would really need to drill down and think about how you would make a lasting beneficial impact balanced against societal cohesion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Can't we train our own surgeons? Euro men have pretty good eye-hand coordination and spatial sense.
    , @Discard
    There is no premium of Asian intelligence over White American intelligence. Those who come here are not typical of their homelands. We don't get the rice farmers and street sweepers.
    , @ben tillman

    I wouldn’t say that immigration with a eugenic aim isn’t worthwhile....
     
    Any eugenic improvement can be done using our own gene pool.
  31. @Percy Gryce
    Was this the John Adams quote that Kristol referred to? If so, he completely (and obviously) misconstrued it:

    I must study Politicks and War that my sons may have liberty to study Mathematicks and Philosophy. My sons ought to study Mathematicks and Philosophy, Geography, natural History, Naval Architecture, navigation, Commerce and Agriculture, in order to give their Children a right to study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary, Tapestry and Porcelaine.
     
    --Letter from John Adams to Abigail Adams, post 12 May 1780

    Don’t take it at face value. That was the sort of thing that got you Ye Olde Piece of Aff in the 1700s.

    Read More
  32. @SPMoore8
    I think this philosophy of "Cognitive Elitism" has always been around to some extent, what's unusual about it now is that high intelligence is being extolled as the greatest good, and such contempt for the "lower orders" is ever more brazenly discussed.

    But a head needs a body. Contempt can and will be met with contempt, and the victory doesn't go to the smartest, it goes to the strongest and most ruthless. Kristol's remarks show not only the vanity of our own "Cognitive Elite" but it also shows the lack of connection our cognitive elite feels for its fellow countrymen.

    This is an idea I have seen elsewhere on the right. The basic idea is that the broad lower and lower middle of white America isn't doing anything but getting fat and taking drugs, so, you know what, why don't you just die out and we'll bring in a bunch of people from Latin America and Asia who will work hard. (And, incidentally, enrich us.) The instrumentality of this POV is breathtaking.

    But a head needs a body

    “The mediator between the Head and the Hand must be the Heart”.

    It’s not a new idea. But the current elite has no “heart”; they just don’t care.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    That particular idea, at least among Germans, goes back to Schiller at least.
  33. “don’t you want to get new Americans in? ”

    It is not just working class. Go to a hospital, medical staff are Asian.

    Read More
  34. You know I’ve often thought to myself, “Man how great would it be if we woke up tomorrow and a Lee Kuan Yew style benevolent dictator ran the United States of America instead of the current crop of clueless politicians in our dysfunctional political system?”

    Imagine if we had a man who understood the fundamental realities of nature and who knew how to apply those principles towards governing a multiracial society? Then America might be on top for the next 200 years instead of quite possibly devolving into the next Brazil.

    I would argue that this is in fact why the alternative right should embrace East Asians as allies in the fight against the current PC insanity. If ever the currents of multiculturalism are to be reversed in the modern day West, I suspect that the East Asian example will have much to do with dispelling the prevailing leftist dogmas here…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Tulip
    It would be great if we had a crop of right wing Asians, and such people exist. However, my sense is that the Asians are mostly angling to take over and push out the Jews, and are always well represented in SJW organizations.

    On the other hand, seeing the Asians and the Mexicans forcefully push the Jews and Blacks out of their political niche (in the name of Social Justice no doubt) and into the political void, well, it kind of makes me want to check my white privilege.
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Americans don’t want a short alien looking dude running the country. Obama looked weird, but he isn’t short. (Plus, he’s a “clean, articulate” black, and to many Americans that was/is automatically magical.)

    Lee Kuan Yew ran a tiny hothouse city-state with few civil liberties compared to the U.S. I imagine one of the first things your wise Yoda overlord would mandate is strict gun control — “For societal harmony and security! Mmmm-hmmmm.”

    No thanks.

    , @Langley
    "You know I’ve often thought to myself, “Man how great would it be if we woke up tomorrow and a Lee Kuan Yew style benevolent dictator ran the United States of America instead of the current crop of clueless politicians in our dysfunctional political system?”

    Singapore is small.
    America is vast.

    Benevolent dictatorships do not scale well.

    BTW - Asian dictatorships are not always benevolent or efficient.
    The Japaneses running Hawaii are neither.

    , @Buck Turgidson
    If Lew Kwan Yew came back and was appointed U.S. president, we would have an immigration moratorium in place by COB the next day. I lived and worked in Singapore BTW back when he was a senior minister.
    , @Discard
    Replace our own elites with Chinese elites? Take your Trojan horse elsewhere.

    BTW, it does not seem logical to "reverse multiculturalism" by allying with Orientals. Are they not from a very different culture?
    , @AndrewR
    Eh, most "East Asians" in the US are more than happy to ally with the left.

    The continued existence of Mari Matsuda inherently shows the folly of allowing any Japanese into the US.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    China seems to be doing reasonably okay and resisting the worst of SJW influence. Its still too early to tell, though, as the proverb goes.
    , @Forbes

    Imagine if we had a man who understood the fundamental realities of nature and who knew how to apply those principles towards governing a multiracial society?
     
    Does he leap tall buildings in a single bound? Yeah, we know who that guy is...
    , @Chrisnonymous
    I don't want to be on top. I just want to have safety, Christmas, and low population density.
  35. @Dave Pinsen
    Frum is much better on immigration (see, for example: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/refugees/419976/ ). But, like Michael Dougherty, he's essentially pro-Trumpism but anti-Trump. Snobbery is the only explanation I can think of for their antipathy to Trump.

    Frum is much better on immigration (see, for example: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/refugees/419976/ ). But, like Michael Dougherty, he’s essentially pro-Trumpism but anti-Trump. Snobbery is the only explanation I can think of for their antipathy to Trump.

    Or he isn’t really that sincere about it. I think we have to conclude he’s playing more of a gatekeeper/controlled opposition role (possibly subconsciously) in US politics. At the end of the day, he is just too anxious about Gentile nationalism to pull the lever for it when given the opportunity.

    It is a little bit reminiscent of jews who criticize “the occupation” or Israel but won’t support any actions that would actually bring pressure to bear, if those actions would actually be implemented.

    Read More
  36. @carol
    There is something weird going on with young workers. There is this segment that doesn't want to learn the manly trades, but won't tolerate the low wages of the clerical and retail work that's left to them. They are undependable.

    And then there's ag work. That there is hard work.

    try aaa.co.uk and its US equivalent.

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  37. @Alec Leamas
    Regression to the mean is a big problem with this view. The 140 IQ Pakistani Brain Surgeon is eminently capable of blessing his new country with a 100 IQ layabout.

    The premium of Asian intelligence over white American intelligence is negligible and all but disappears with some preference for northern European whites. (and, of course, the reported numbers rely upon the honesty of shame cultures including China).

    I wouldn't say that immigration with a eugenic aim isn't worthwhile, but that you would really need to drill down and think about how you would make a lasting beneficial impact balanced against societal cohesion.

    Can’t we train our own surgeons? Euro men have pretty good eye-hand coordination and spatial sense.

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  38. @Sondjata
    "really want to succeed and really want their kids to live better lives than them and aren’t sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth"

    Anyone who has read The Millionaire Next Door knows full well that a "great defense" of one's income, including coupon clipping, is a part of the path to building wealth.

    I suppose Kristol would like for us to overpay for goods and services.

    I assumed he meant clipping bond coupons.

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    • Replies: @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Yep. He's showing his age.

    Bit like nobody seems to understand why stripped treasuries or zero couple bonds have that name.
    , @Marat
    Now that you mention it, one of the "joys" of reading quirky Bill Kristol is he often drops 'ruling-class phrases' in situations where they don't quite apply. "Clipping coupons" applied to the working class is a fine example . Ditto for name-dropping and working in obscure references to the classics. Quite clever, but the status seeking gets in the way of the message. Could he use an editor? Nah.
    , @hhsiii
    Exactly. He's either not talking about the working class but those living on inherited wealth, or mixing metaphors. Or sort of combining the two. Perhaps he simply means a generation living off the patrimony of their sturdier forebears. In which case he may not be too far off.
    , @ben tillman

    I assumed he meant clipping bond coupons.
     
    Ha ha. Nicely done.
  39. @Yan Shen

    No matter how fat and lazy and ugly a redneck, he’ll fit in our society a thousand times better than a hard working member of a different race. This in the end is what it comes down to.
     
    I actually disagree with this and in fact would argue that it can be proven to be empirically false. Race and ethnicity matter yes, but as I've argued that the fallacy of some on the alternative right is that these are somehow the only dimensions of tribal affiliation. I would argue that in fact in today's increasingly global and interconnected society, intelligence has also become increasingly more relevant as well. Think of social compatibility as a multi-variable function where race and ethnicity may in fact be the two most important factors but certainly other salient attributes matter as well.

    That being said, I've stated that I don't really have any specific policy ideas in mind about how we as a nation or any nation in particular would adopt a more cognitive elitist point of view, although I've brought up China's approach towards eugenics as something admirable.

    In general, sentiments like the one espoused above represent a fundamental fallacy that I believe is worth pointing out.

    That being said, I’ve stated that I don’t really have any specific policy ideas in mind about how we as a nation or any nation in particular would adopt a more cognitive elitist point of view

    We don’t need to “adopt a more cognitive elitist point of view.” We have enough cognitive talent as is within our borders.

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  40. @Langley
    Are their pieces all in place?

    Do they really not care who knows their plans now?

    Jews and those with low IQs; allies separated by a common enemy - white guys.

    Yep

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  41. @kihowi
    Nobody understands a goddamn thing. We don't prefer the white working class because they're hard-working or moral or good-looking or whatever. We prefer them because civilization will function with them in it, and not with mexicans or africans.

    No matter how fat and lazy and ugly a redneck, he'll fit in our society a thousand times better than a hard working member of a different race. This in the end is what it comes down to.

    Can’t we just prefer them because they are our people, our family? End of argument?

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    • Replies: @kihowi
    You're right. I fell into the usual autistic white male trap: coming with technical or principled arguments where none are needed. There are no arguments for preferring your own race, just as there are none for preferring your own parents.
    , @AndrewR
    Scots-Irish ain't my people.

    I need you to speak for yourself.

    I concede that I do share common foes with them for now.

  42. You can make a case that America has been great because every—I think John Adams said this—basically if you’re a free society, a capitalist society, after two or three generations of hard work everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever. Then, luckily, you have these waves of people coming in from Italy, Ireland, Russia, and now Mexico, who really want to work hard and really want to succeed and really want their kids to live better lives than them and aren’t sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth. In that respect, I don’t know how this moment is that different from the early 20th century.

    One obvious way it’s different is that there are more than 3x as many people here now (the U.S. population in 1910 was 92 million). Another obvious way it’s different is that we have an expensive welfare state today, so each member of the white working class is entitled to Medicare, Medicaid (if eligible), food stamps, etc., as is each Mexican immigrant who becomes a legal resident.

    So, even if a Mexican immigrant were marginally more productive than a member of the white working class, it would be a bad deal to import Mexican immigrants. To make sense economically, the Mexican immigrant would have to contribute more in taxes than he consumes in government resources, which isn’t the case.

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  43. @Ed
    If he thinks the white working class should be replaced what does he want done with blacks, death squads?

    Why would he want to dispose of blacks? They are not seen as a rival/threat.

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  44. @Alec Leamas
    I don't suppose Kristol perceives that many of us view him as the decadent, lazy and spoiled scion whose bed was feathered by his forbears?

    How obtuse and sheltered can this guy possibly be?

    “I don’t suppose Kristol perceives that many of us view him as the decadent, lazy and spoiled scion whose bed was feathered by his forbears?”

    Exactly. Has Bill Kristol ever worked a day in his life?

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    • Replies: @Alec Leamas

    Exactly. Has Bill Kristol ever worked a day in his life?
     
    To ask the question is to answer it.
  45. @kihowi
    Nobody understands a goddamn thing. We don't prefer the white working class because they're hard-working or moral or good-looking or whatever. We prefer them because civilization will function with them in it, and not with mexicans or africans.

    No matter how fat and lazy and ugly a redneck, he'll fit in our society a thousand times better than a hard working member of a different race. This in the end is what it comes down to.

    Societies succeed because they’ve built up, usually over centuries, a widely accepted and practiced set of behaviors; social capital built up of predictable actions and attitudes and beliefs: The core of the culture.

    Immigrants; who do not have that ingrained culture are likely to be destructive of social capital and destructive to the host society. Despite the gibberish of the lunatic left most people recognize this and quite rightly reject the attempt to destroy their society in pursuit of a crazed political fantasy.

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  46. @Dumbo

    But a head needs a body
     
    "The mediator between the Head and the Hand must be the Heart".

    It's not a new idea. But the current elite has no "heart"; they just don't care.

    https://youtu.be/yeaVxvLyRhE?t=1h56m2s

    That particular idea, at least among Germans, goes back to Schiller at least.

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  47. Kristol’s views expressed here are more or less the (usually unspoken) conventional wisdom of the managerial class UMC (Left, Right, and Center) in which I’ve spent the majority of my life. What has changed is the willingness to take steps to insure that those replacement Americans are in fact better than those they’re replacing. Well, not really replacing, just spurring out of their decadence and complacency.

    That willingness has largely evaporated. So even if that conventional wisdom once had some validity, it no longer does, even on its own terms.

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    • Replies: @JimB
    Nice Bell Curve you got there. It would be an awful shame if something should happen to it.
    , @Dave Pinsen
    Running a country by Taylorism is an interesting thought experiment. Kristol ought to take it to its logical conclusion: fire the complacent. 3rd+ generation Americans who aren't earning more than their parents, adjusted for inflation, have to leave. Up or out.
  48. @Opinionator
    Can't we just prefer them because they are our people, our family? End of argument?

    You’re right. I fell into the usual autistic white male trap: coming with technical or principled arguments where none are needed. There are no arguments for preferring your own race, just as there are none for preferring your own parents.

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  49. @The Z Blog
    One of the unexpected byproducts of the information age is that conversations that used to go on behind closed doors are now had out in public. The old line was you never speak of religion or politics around the staff. The reason was that educated elites had to be free to consider all options and debate all options. To do so in front of the rabble would risk a revolt as the rabble could not appreciate the need for playing devil's advocate, arguing for effect and simply enjoying the debate.

    Fifty years ago Murray and Kristol would have this debate on a college campus in front of other educated elites. Both would be free to take extreme positions just to test the other and score rhetorical points. Today dirtbags like me get to watch it on youtube while my old lady jacks up the corner of the doublewide.

    Except Kristol isn’t just playing Devil’s advocate. He really hates the white working class.

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  50. @Desiderius
    Kristol's views expressed here are more or less the (usually unspoken) conventional wisdom of the managerial class UMC (Left, Right, and Center) in which I've spent the majority of my life. What has changed is the willingness to take steps to insure that those replacement Americans are in fact better than those they're replacing. Well, not really replacing, just spurring out of their decadence and complacency.

    That willingness has largely evaporated. So even if that conventional wisdom once had some validity, it no longer does, even on its own terms.

    Nice Bell Curve you got there. It would be an awful shame if something should happen to it.

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  51. @Flip
    Talk about hostile elites. He certainly doesn't view the white working class as his countrymen.

    They’re not.

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  52. Bill Kristol should take a break from domestic policy making and conduct guided walking tours of Baghdad instead.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dc.sunsets
    Or Kandahar. Or Islamabad, or Tehran.

    Or Chicago's Englewood. It's closer.
    , @Opinionator
    His sentiments are shared by the entire managerial class. At least he is honest.
  53. @EriK
    I assumed he meant clipping bond coupons.

    Yep. He’s showing his age.

    Bit like nobody seems to understand why stripped treasuries or zero couple bonds have that name.

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    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    I was struck by the reference to "clipping coupons." The class of people he's disparaging would assume he meant cutting coupons out of the weekly supermarket circular, rather than sitting around collecting the interest payments from bonds, like he does. So he's illustrating his elite status as someone who really doesn't need to sully himself with work, even if it's just what he refers to as his "tiny, pathetic future" in the pundit biz.

    Kristol is fortunate that working-class Americans have no idea who he is or what he stands for. If they did, he couldn't walk a city block without getting punched in his smirking face.

  54. Low-skill immigration screws over low-skill Americans. High skill immigration screws over skilled and educated Americans.

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  55. @Sondjata
    "really want to succeed and really want their kids to live better lives than them and aren’t sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth"

    Anyone who has read The Millionaire Next Door knows full well that a "great defense" of one's income, including coupon clipping, is a part of the path to building wealth.

    I suppose Kristol would like for us to overpay for goods and services.

    “sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth”

    It’s interesting to note the change in meaning of “clipping coupons.” Probably this has to do with the disappearance of bearer bonds (no new ones were issued after the passage of TEFRA in 1986). I think I last clipped bond coupons in about 2005, when the last of my bearer bonds matured. “Clipping coupons” used to be a sort of abbreviation for collecting a passive income.

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  56. can we import a better managerial/political class?

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    We can have a loyal homegrown one. We just need to cultivate it.
  57. Bill Kristol said:

    “and I hope this thing isn’t being videotaped or ever shown anywhere. Whatever tiny, pathetic future I have is going to totally collapse.”

    Should this ever be promulgated outside Amren, I doubt you would still have much to worry about.

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  58. @Yan Shen

    No matter how fat and lazy and ugly a redneck, he’ll fit in our society a thousand times better than a hard working member of a different race. This in the end is what it comes down to.
     
    I actually disagree with this and in fact would argue that it can be proven to be empirically false. Race and ethnicity matter yes, but as I've argued that the fallacy of some on the alternative right is that these are somehow the only dimensions of tribal affiliation. I would argue that in fact in today's increasingly global and interconnected society, intelligence has also become increasingly more relevant as well. Think of social compatibility as a multi-variable function where race and ethnicity may in fact be the two most important factors but certainly other salient attributes matter as well.

    That being said, I've stated that I don't really have any specific policy ideas in mind about how we as a nation or any nation in particular would adopt a more cognitive elitist point of view, although I've brought up China's approach towards eugenics as something admirable.

    In general, sentiments like the one espoused above represent a fundamental fallacy that I believe is worth pointing out.

    I would argue that in fact in today’s increasingly global and interconnected society, intelligence has also become increasingly more relevant as well.

    First, you forget regression to the mean. But there’s something far more important than IQ. I’ll leave it to Mr. Kipling to educate you:

    The Stranger within my gate,
    He may be true or kind,
    But he does not talk my talk–
    I cannot feel his mind.
    I see the face and the eyes and the mouth,
    But not the soul behind.

    The men of my own stock,
    They may do ill or well,
    But they tell the lies I am wanted to,
    They are used to the lies I tell;
    And we do not need interpreters
    When we go to buy or sell.

    The Stranger within my gates,
    He may be evil or good,
    But I cannot tell what powers control–
    What reasons sway his mood;
    Nor when the Gods of his far-off land
    Shall repossess his blood.

    The men of my own stock,
    Bitter bad they may be,
    But, at least, they hear the things I hear,
    And see the things I see;
    And whatever I think of them and their likes
    They think of the likes of me.

    This was my father’s belief
    And this is also mine:
    Let the corn be all one sheaf–
    And the grapes be all one vine,
    Ere our children’s teeth are set on edge
    By bitter bread and wine.

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  59. @Dave Pinsen
    Frum is much better on immigration (see, for example: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/12/refugees/419976/ ). But, like Michael Dougherty, he's essentially pro-Trumpism but anti-Trump. Snobbery is the only explanation I can think of for their antipathy to Trump.

    I believe it’s not exactly “snobbery”, but more accurately a constitutional inability to recognize the concept that “brute masculinity” is a valid and potentially successful leadership strategy for a national leader.

    It’s particularly ironic in Dougherty’s case. No doubt many of the great Catholic monarchs of yore that he venerates had Trump-like personalities.

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  60. @Cagey Beast
    Bill Kristol should take a break from domestic policy making and conduct guided walking tours of Baghdad instead.

    Or Kandahar. Or Islamabad, or Tehran.

    Or Chicago’s Englewood. It’s closer.

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  61. @SPMoore8
    I think this philosophy of "Cognitive Elitism" has always been around to some extent, what's unusual about it now is that high intelligence is being extolled as the greatest good, and such contempt for the "lower orders" is ever more brazenly discussed.

    But a head needs a body. Contempt can and will be met with contempt, and the victory doesn't go to the smartest, it goes to the strongest and most ruthless. Kristol's remarks show not only the vanity of our own "Cognitive Elite" but it also shows the lack of connection our cognitive elite feels for its fellow countrymen.

    This is an idea I have seen elsewhere on the right. The basic idea is that the broad lower and lower middle of white America isn't doing anything but getting fat and taking drugs, so, you know what, why don't you just die out and we'll bring in a bunch of people from Latin America and Asia who will work hard. (And, incidentally, enrich us.) The instrumentality of this POV is breathtaking.

    Kristol seems to think that he is part of the cognitive elite. Nearly everything he has written over the past 20 years suggests otherwise.

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    • Agree: JerryC
    • LOL: AndrewR
    • Replies: @Amasius
    As his fellow tribesman Jon Taffer might say: He's arrogant in failure.
    , @(((Owen)))
    OMG what a fat slob. How can a man let himself go like that? When your only skill in like is to inherit family influence, you're supposed to be a svelte and strong man of leisure. Please the public with how well you are living that station so far above your talents that fate has handed you.
  62. @newrouter
    can we import a better managerial/political class?

    We can have a loyal homegrown one. We just need to cultivate it.

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  63. Kristol exemplifies the failure of the third generation to assimilate.

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  64. @Cagey Beast
    Bill Kristol should take a break from domestic policy making and conduct guided walking tours of Baghdad instead.

    His sentiments are shared by the entire managerial class. At least he is honest.

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    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Not the entire class, and we're being taught daily by that most pressing tutor - reality.
  65. @kihowi
    You're right. I fell into the usual autistic white male trap: coming with technical or principled arguments where none are needed. There are no arguments for preferring your own race, just as there are none for preferring your own parents.

    It needn’t even be strictly racial.

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  66. @carol
    There is something weird going on with young workers. There is this segment that doesn't want to learn the manly trades, but won't tolerate the low wages of the clerical and retail work that's left to them. They are undependable.

    And then there's ag work. That there is hard work.

    Carol,
    “And then there’s ag work.”

    Which of course is done for the most part on highly mechanized farms, like the cotton farms of the High Plains of Texas or the wheat fields of the Midwest.

    Or is done by the hands of whites on dairy farms owned by Mennonites in the Midwest.

    Or is done by the hands of whites on farms owned by Amish in Ohio, Iowa, Indiana, Pennslyvania and Maryland.

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  67. @Ivy
    Kristol and Murray should address new politicians instead of new workers. Those politicians, with Kristol and his neo-con gang aiding and abetting through PNAC and other channels, set back America and Americans. Jack Ma said that we wasted trillions on wars and it is hard to disagree with that. As much as I find Kristol odious, I do hope that his debate performance is one of those 47% deplorable moments that galvanizes opinions to do something about him and his ilk.

    It hasn’t [publically] occurred to Kristol that it is the elite that needs replacent. [Privately], this realization probably consumes most of his waking computing cycles as he races to deny it.

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  68. I am as white as you get and I work very hard. I was in a trade when the work got slow in the 90′s due to the fall of the Iron Curtain bringing in tons of low wage tradesmen. I went back to school at night and got a degree in Computer Science. I has hoping to land a good job in programming when the industry sent many of those jobs overseas and many more were taken by immigrants. I am thinking about taking a second job. Most of the working class whites I know work hard as well. This guy is so out of touch.

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  69. @Yan Shen
    You know I've often thought to myself, "Man how great would it be if we woke up tomorrow and a Lee Kuan Yew style benevolent dictator ran the United States of America instead of the current crop of clueless politicians in our dysfunctional political system?"

    Imagine if we had a man who understood the fundamental realities of nature and who knew how to apply those principles towards governing a multiracial society? Then America might be on top for the next 200 years instead of quite possibly devolving into the next Brazil.

    I would argue that this is in fact why the alternative right should embrace East Asians as allies in the fight against the current PC insanity. If ever the currents of multiculturalism are to be reversed in the modern day West, I suspect that the East Asian example will have much to do with dispelling the prevailing leftist dogmas here...

    It would be great if we had a crop of right wing Asians, and such people exist. However, my sense is that the Asians are mostly angling to take over and push out the Jews, and are always well represented in SJW organizations.

    On the other hand, seeing the Asians and the Mexicans forcefully push the Jews and Blacks out of their political niche (in the name of Social Justice no doubt) and into the political void, well, it kind of makes me want to check my white privilege.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    It would be great if we had a crop of right wing Asians, and such people exist. However, my sense is that the Asians are mostly angling to take over and push out the Jews, and are always well represented in SJW organizations.
     
    As with whites, there is a good deal (sometimes very stark) bifurcation among Asians, mostly along ethnic and religious lines.

    An evengelical Korean-American or a Catholic Vietnamese-American is going to be far more in tune with the right or even the "alt-right" (whatever that may mean) than, say, atheistic Chinese-Americans or Hindu Indian-Americans, especially recent arrivals, who are essentially the new Jews, complete with a sense of victimhood, SJW mentality, and disregard for Christian whites and the traditional Christian Anglo-American culture.

    Or as it was said at one of my almae matres, there are the CCC* Asians and then there are the non-CCC Asians.

    *CCC = Campus Crusade for Christ.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    My experience with alt-right organizations is that there's an unusual percentage of Asians in them as well, sometimes awkwardly positioned with white nationalists. But the fourteen words are pretty reasonable, so it has never particularly troubled me.

    I agree with Twinkie that we seem to radicalize one side or another, however. Perhaps for every Daniel Chieh, there's an Arthur Chu.
  70. @Ivy
    Kristol and Murray should address new politicians instead of new workers. Those politicians, with Kristol and his neo-con gang aiding and abetting through PNAC and other channels, set back America and Americans. Jack Ma said that we wasted trillions on wars and it is hard to disagree with that. As much as I find Kristol odious, I do hope that his debate performance is one of those 47% deplorable moments that galvanizes opinions to do something about him and his ilk.

    I think Kristol has hit the Al Gore “let it rip” phase of his career. He turned the Weekly Standard over to Steve Hayes after the election and I think has mostly been driven out of the cable news talking head circuit all together. These are his unfiltered thoughts, he understands his influence has been so diminished there is no reason to hedge or mince words. As Bob Dylan said, “when you ain’t got nothing, you’ve got nothing to lose.”

    After this quote, which was part of a rambling answer he gave to a question in the audience, he asked Murray if he wanted to make a rebuttal. Murray quickly moved onto the next question. Later Kristol joked about hoping they were serving hard liquor at the reception after the Q&A.

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    • Replies: @Desiderius
    This is actually the first step toward progress. Old people speaking their minds (instead of bullshitting) despite so much resistance from behind. Actually having to articulate one's beliefs lets one appreciate which beliefs no longer have the ring of truth.
  71. What are the odds Kristol has done an honest day’s work in his entire life? In case anybody’s forgotten, back in October he was condemning the alt-right as cowards for being sick of neocon wars. What do we have to do to get these people to shut up?

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  72. awkward

    How unfortunate that such a nice event was marred by awkwardness.

    Kristol is a neocon Jew who cheerled America into the pointless (and apparently endless) ‘War on Terror’, during which mostly underclass white servicemen have died and been maimed.

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  73. @Dumbo
    Well, this is what the elite always thought, they are just saying it out loud now.

    However, I doubt they want a "more satisfactory working class", they just want people who will work more for less.

    In a way, it is true that each new wave "works harder". But it is also that the quality of the work performed decays. Mexicans are cheaper. But they are not going to take us to the moon, so to speak.

    And after the Mexicans? Somalians?

    Then you have the case of Europe, where the Muslims are not even replacing the working class, as they are in large part living on welfare or other forms of fraud.

    So in the end, I doubt this is about economics. They really just want to "watch the world burn".

    “However, I doubt they [our elites] want a “more satisfactory working class”, they just want people who will work more for less.”

    Dumbo, you’re right. I’m watching a once well-regarded local organization being beaten down by a vicious, unscrupulous management. It’s an ugly sight. Good people are leaving, those who remain are embittered, the replacement workers damn well know they’re being used, and quality and reputation have taken a serious hit. All management cares about is labor costs.

    Our political and managerial elites need to ask how they’ve acted so as to make the notion of work force replacement by mass immigration sound rational. That slobs like Kristol can talk national suicide staggers me.

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  74. @Percy Gryce
    Was this the John Adams quote that Kristol referred to? If so, he completely (and obviously) misconstrued it:

    I must study Politicks and War that my sons may have liberty to study Mathematicks and Philosophy. My sons ought to study Mathematicks and Philosophy, Geography, natural History, Naval Architecture, navigation, Commerce and Agriculture, in order to give their Children a right to study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary, Tapestry and Porcelaine.
     
    --Letter from John Adams to Abigail Adams, post 12 May 1780

    in order to give their Children a right to study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary, Tapestry and Porcelain

    “…in order to give their Children a right to study Womyn’s Studies, LGBT Studies, and Masked Rioting Studies, and learn to hate their Forefathers and everything we’ve built.”

    BTW, did the capitalization of all nouns come to English from German? And when did English lose that?

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    • Replies: @(((Owen)))

    BTW, did the capitalization of all nouns come to English from German? And when did English lose that?
     
    Noah Webster published his first reader in 1783. Spelling and grammar books followed in the next three years. Before that, spelling was chaos and English shared with the other north Europe languages a fetish for marking all nouns with majuscules.

    Webster became founding editor of the nation's most influential newspaper—the American Minerva—in 1793 with Alex Hamilton's support. Webster continued publishing revised editions of his student readers and gradually developed the American style and standardized spellings. Those readers made Webster a millionaire and sold well over 100 million copies in the 1800s. By the time of Webster's first dictionary in 1806, the style and written language of the founders a generation before was an anachronism in the young nation.

    Hawthorne (b. 1804), Emerson (b. 1803), Thoreau (b. 1817), and Twain (b. 1835) wrote all their lives very much like Americans do today. The style of writing had been fixed once and for all by Webster and his times.
  75. @EriK
    I assumed he meant clipping bond coupons.

    Now that you mention it, one of the “joys” of reading quirky Bill Kristol is he often drops ‘ruling-class phrases’ in situations where they don’t quite apply. “Clipping coupons” applied to the working class is a fine example . Ditto for name-dropping and working in obscure references to the classics. Quite clever, but the status seeking gets in the way of the message. Could he use an editor? Nah.

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  76. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    a lot of the rot that has beset the native working class over the last 30 years occurred because of off-shoring or being undercut by illegals i.e. they didn’t choose welfare

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  77. @Yan Shen

    No matter how fat and lazy and ugly a redneck, he’ll fit in our society a thousand times better than a hard working member of a different race. This in the end is what it comes down to.
     
    I actually disagree with this and in fact would argue that it can be proven to be empirically false. Race and ethnicity matter yes, but as I've argued that the fallacy of some on the alternative right is that these are somehow the only dimensions of tribal affiliation. I would argue that in fact in today's increasingly global and interconnected society, intelligence has also become increasingly more relevant as well. Think of social compatibility as a multi-variable function where race and ethnicity may in fact be the two most important factors but certainly other salient attributes matter as well.

    That being said, I've stated that I don't really have any specific policy ideas in mind about how we as a nation or any nation in particular would adopt a more cognitive elitist point of view, although I've brought up China's approach towards eugenics as something admirable.

    In general, sentiments like the one espoused above represent a fundamental fallacy that I believe is worth pointing out.

    Rednecks are incredibly resourceful people. They “make do” with little and are on the whole ready, willing and able to take care of themselves and their kin if you leave them be. There’s a certain applied intelligence that may not show up in verbal or mathematical measures but which is nonetheless apparent if you spend any time with them.

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  78. @I laugh at your shit
    "I don’t suppose Kristol perceives that many of us view him as the decadent, lazy and spoiled scion whose bed was feathered by his forbears?"

    Exactly. Has Bill Kristol ever worked a day in his life?

    Exactly. Has Bill Kristol ever worked a day in his life?

    To ask the question is to answer it.

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    • Replies: @David In TN
    "Exactly. Has Bill Kristol ever worked a day in his life?"

    "To ask the question is to answer it."

    Well said. Full disclosure, I held a blue collar job for over 30 years.
  79. @Opinionator
    His sentiments are shared by the entire managerial class. At least he is honest.

    Not the entire class, and we’re being taught daily by that most pressing tutor – reality.

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  80. What does Bill Kristol have against poor whites?

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    • Replies: @anon
    paranoia - he wants the majority population turned into a minority because he thinks that will make Jews safer but white proles are resisting.

    He's using elite class arguments to con upper class whites into helping with their own minoritization.
    , @Forbes
    They are not his people.
  81. @Barnard
    I think Kristol has hit the Al Gore "let it rip" phase of his career. He turned the Weekly Standard over to Steve Hayes after the election and I think has mostly been driven out of the cable news talking head circuit all together. These are his unfiltered thoughts, he understands his influence has been so diminished there is no reason to hedge or mince words. As Bob Dylan said, "when you ain't got nothing, you've got nothing to lose."

    After this quote, which was part of a rambling answer he gave to a question in the audience, he asked Murray if he wanted to make a rebuttal. Murray quickly moved onto the next question. Later Kristol joked about hoping they were serving hard liquor at the reception after the Q&A.

    This is actually the first step toward progress. Old people speaking their minds (instead of bullshitting) despite so much resistance from behind. Actually having to articulate one’s beliefs lets one appreciate which beliefs no longer have the ring of truth.

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  82. after two or three generations of hard work everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever

    With the welfare state new immigrants and their children can move directly to the decadent, lazy, and spoiled status. Two generations of hard work is no longer required.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MadDog
    Two? Every white I know has been here for generations. And yes. Today's immigrants come to a fully developed country and proceed to rob it blind. Affirmative action and welfare. The first thing most immigrants do when they step in is to insult and slander white people. Frankly, I'm sick of it.
  83. @Yan Shen
    You know I've often thought to myself, "Man how great would it be if we woke up tomorrow and a Lee Kuan Yew style benevolent dictator ran the United States of America instead of the current crop of clueless politicians in our dysfunctional political system?"

    Imagine if we had a man who understood the fundamental realities of nature and who knew how to apply those principles towards governing a multiracial society? Then America might be on top for the next 200 years instead of quite possibly devolving into the next Brazil.

    I would argue that this is in fact why the alternative right should embrace East Asians as allies in the fight against the current PC insanity. If ever the currents of multiculturalism are to be reversed in the modern day West, I suspect that the East Asian example will have much to do with dispelling the prevailing leftist dogmas here...

    Americans don’t want a short alien looking dude running the country. Obama looked weird, but he isn’t short. (Plus, he’s a “clean, articulate” black, and to many Americans that was/is automatically magical.)

    Lee Kuan Yew ran a tiny hothouse city-state with few civil liberties compared to the U.S. I imagine one of the first things your wise Yoda overlord would mandate is strict gun control — “For societal harmony and security! Mmmm-hmmmm.”

    No thanks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Opinionator
    We'd support a patriot who loved the American people and put them first--even if he or she were short and alien looking.
    , @Twinkie
    Can I volunteer? I am much taller than Lee Kuan Yew (I am 6' 2") and no one has ever said that I look weird.

    And I hate gun control with a passion. I think that the 2nd and 10th Amendments to the Constitution are perhaps the most abused and violated amendments.

    If I were in charge, it's the immediate repeal of the NFA. Class 3 weapons for everyone!
  84. @Drog
    There are a lot of hard working lower class whites.

    Yes, there is the segment that is indolent and spoiled.

    Whose to blame for that, though? Their parents, the government, Cultural Marxism, or what else?

    Kristol's argument is ignores the reality that the world crafted by previous generations is the world that spoils the child. So, in essence, what he wants is to push away the children of the past generations for the labors of a foreign who will fall into the same trap. Well thought through.

    If that's the case take your baby and punt it off a cliff. Turn around and hand the title of your property over to a complete stranger, because FUCK IT YOLO you're probably going to be a failure anyways. Just don't forget to tell the new guy, "This is your future, too."

    Or maybe it's because we have parasites that warp the culture? Maybe the culture needs to go through moments on INTERNAL SELF-EXAMINATION without foreign influence or interlocutors? How can a society ever work through it's problems if it never attempts to correct them, but instead ups the ante on the same past policies and folkways that created the current situation of indolent and spoiled youth? Another problem with Kristol's argument is that he takes a large broad brush and sweeps it over the white working class as if they are all the same. The reality is an uneven distribution.

    It need not be said that Kristol is a Jew, and of course, this plays into Kevin McDonald's theory of their evolutionary strategy. He despises populism because it means Jewish power is threatened.

    It doesn't really matter, in the end, we already cycling into an age of violence, political and criminal. I'm sure we will work something out then.

    How can a society ever work through it’s problems if it never attempts to correct them, but instead ups the ante on the same past policies and folkways that created the current situation of indolent and spoiled youth?

    This.

    And the current class of immigrant child falls into the “deplorable” slot in record time.`

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  85. If things are going so bad in DC with the pundit class, you can make an argument that they should be replaced

    Look at that fat belly and skewed collar: lazy, decadent, and entitled: bring in Steve Sailer to replace

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  86. Um….woof. Where to start.

    1. It’s appalling.

    2. This is partially the fallout of Steve’s observation that if you’re not allowed to talk about things that are true, you forget they’re true. His assumption is that immigrants are fungible, and a few million from Mexico or Somalia are interchangeable with a few million from Norway, both culturally and genetically.

    3. How are those Somali immigrants working out? Any Nobel Prizes yet?

    One can go on.

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  87. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Exploitative, dishonest, venal, imperialist, nihilistic, vain, and unscrupulous.

    I say replace the current globalist elites with patriotic leaders.

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  88. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Americans don’t want a short alien looking dude running the country. Obama looked weird, but he isn’t short. (Plus, he’s a “clean, articulate” black, and to many Americans that was/is automatically magical.)

    Lee Kuan Yew ran a tiny hothouse city-state with few civil liberties compared to the U.S. I imagine one of the first things your wise Yoda overlord would mandate is strict gun control — “For societal harmony and security! Mmmm-hmmmm.”

    No thanks.

    We’d support a patriot who loved the American people and put them first–even if he or she were short and alien looking.

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    • Replies: @Kylie
    "We’d support a patriot who loved the American people and put them first–even if he or she were short and alien looking."

    Or glowering and weirdly orange.
  89. @Crawfurdmuir

    "sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth"
     
    It's interesting to note the change in meaning of "clipping coupons." Probably this has to do with the disappearance of bearer bonds (no new ones were issued after the passage of TEFRA in 1986). I think I last clipped bond coupons in about 2005, when the last of my bearer bonds matured. "Clipping coupons" used to be a sort of abbreviation for collecting a passive income.

    “Well then, never mind” — Emily Litella.

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  90. You can make a case that America has been great because every—I think John Adams said this—basically if you’re a free society, a capitalist society, after two or three generations of hard work everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever.

    Dunno. John Adams did say this:

    The science of government it is my duty to study, more than all other sciences; the arts of legislation and administration and negotiation ought to take the place of, indeed exclude, in a manner, all other arts.

    I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.

    Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain.

    John Adams, Letter to Abigail Adams (12 May 1780)

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    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    I kinda think Kristol was just making that Adams attribution up. I can't think of any quote remotely approaching what Kristol is attributing to Adams. And there is plenty among that era's writings that diametrically oppose Kristolism.

    The I-will-study-war-so-my-sons-can-study-philosophy quote is not saying, I'll work hard so my sons can goof off. It's saying, if we win war now, our sons can have the blessings of peace.

    A pox on Kristol.
    , @Venator
    It's a saying by Bismarck, who was quite the wordsmith:

    “Die erste Generation verdient das Geld, die zweite verwaltet das Vermögen, die dritte studiert Kunstgeschichte und die vierte verkommt vollends.”

    "The first generation earns the money, the second manages the wealth, the third studies history of art, and the fourth degenerates completely."
  91. I think he is not really talking about the white working class. Since when does the working class clip (bond) coupons and live off of the return on their investments? What ethnic group arrived in the US 2 or 3 generations ago and grew up as spoiled children and now lives off of investment income? And are now getting their asses kicked by Asians on math contests, SAT scores, etc?

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    That's a very interesting observation. It is indeed difficult to infer he is referring to blue collar workers from the description he gives. But I doubt he is deliberately referring to jews. It is possible he is in effect speaking of everyone, of all classes even, and the coupon clipping etc serves as a kind of a metaphor meant to apply to all non-immigrant Americans. (Are you sure btw that it is a reference to bonds and not to discounts btw?) Alternatively, it would in character with his solipsism to assume that coupon clipping etc. is the typical American experience. See past Acela, NYC anecdotes.
  92. @Yan Shen
    Interesting comment. Now, I'm fairly sympathetic to the views of the alternative right on a number of issues. For instance, I think that countries should exist first and foremost for the well-being of their own citizens, a viewpoint which Steve here has referred to as "citizenism". I think that in general multiculturalism has a host of potential drawbacks and that there's certainly empirical evidence suggesting that more homogeneous countries such as Japan fare better by a variety of objective metrics. In particular, it seems like heterogeneity can certainly be a recipe for racial and ethnic tensions and the likes. And without any specific policy proscriptions in mind, at a high level I'm fundamentally in favor of restricting not just illegal immigration but also legal immigration as well for the United States.

    Having stated the above, I've also at times advocated both here and elsewhere a philosophy which I've referred to as cognitive elitism, the simple idea that cognitive capital matters tremendously, especially in an ever increasingly global and competitive society. I once stated that smart people in general probably feel more in common with other smart people than they do with the bottom halves of their respective ethnic bell curves. Race and ethnicity matter and perhaps matter the most, but certainly there are other dimensions along which tribal affiliations splinter, intelligence and ideology being a couple of obvious examples.

    I would argue that for instance China with its lack of political correctness and with a cognitive elitist worldview has approached topics such as intelligence and eugenics with much more boldness than perhaps we have here in the United States. Potentially uplifting your population through the science of modern genetics should be something worthwhile that a country should strive for, as opposed to being something perverse that we as a nation should frown upon. Interestingly enough, the alternative right has by and large focused on the racial and ethnic dimensions of the discussion more so than the cognitive dimension. I've even been accused somewhat negatively of being a eugenicist by others here!

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren't replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations? Hard to argue in the abstract that the country as a whole wouldn't be better off, leaving aside both the potential moral argument against such a policy and the obvious impracticality of putting such an idea to fruition. I assume Bill Kristol's comments were made in semi-jest, but I think in general adopting an orientation more aligned with cognitive elitism may not be a bad way of trying to understand the nuances of modern 21st century global society.

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution?

    Deported them to where, exactly?

    How about instead considering a more practically workable thought experiment that entails the deportation–or even better, non-admission–of the lamest people who are here or want to be here illegally? For starters.

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Apparently Trump has authority to go at that to an extent, through the public charge statute.
    , @Alec Leamas

    Deported them to where, exactly?
     
    The Mexicans have deported theirs to the United States. They seem quite happy with the arrangement.
    , @Forbes

    Deported them to where, exactly?
     
    When the discussion gets around to removing the bottom 10%, options other than deportation will be in the mix. Count on it.
  93. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Matra
    Look, to be totally honest, if things are so bad as you say with the white working class, don’t you want to get new Americans in?

    The lack of empathy with Americans who are not new - ie the descendants of those who built the country that Jews like Kristol's ancestors wanted to move to - and the idea that anyone who is imported instantly a "new American" reveal the neocon mentality. There is no more reasoning with neocons than there is with Antifa tolerance squads. They hate the people of the West with every fibre of their being. Frum is no better. If you doubt that read his Twitter account.

    Bill Kristol lacks empathy for most Americans because he has no ties of blood and little of culture with the great mass of Americans. All of Kristol’s grandparents were Jewish emigrants from Europe or Russia. He has not a drop of ancestry from the old Anglo-Saxon bloodlines of this country. Kristol’s ancestors never went through any of the American experience before the 20th century, so everything that happened here from 1620 to around 1914 is terra incognita to both he and his family. His ancestors never fought in the Revolutionary War, or the Civil War, or pioneered in the West. Heck, neither he nor his ancestors ever moved outside the east coast Beltway. He just doesn’t get American culture or the American people at all.

    He’s a foreigner looking at this country from the outside even though he lives here. Even in the US, Jews in the early part of the 20th century tended to be recent immigrants who lived in Jewish-only enclaves, and that sort of isolation caused them to retain many of the beliefs and cultural habits that they learned in the old country. He shows the sort of isolationist mindset characteristic of tightly-knit in-groups such as gypsies or the Amish, and he is a lousy judge of anything outside his in-group. Kristol’s mindset is that of callow Russian Jewish peasant from the Pale, not that of an American, and he doesn’t know it.

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  94. @SPMoore8
    I think this philosophy of "Cognitive Elitism" has always been around to some extent, what's unusual about it now is that high intelligence is being extolled as the greatest good, and such contempt for the "lower orders" is ever more brazenly discussed.

    But a head needs a body. Contempt can and will be met with contempt, and the victory doesn't go to the smartest, it goes to the strongest and most ruthless. Kristol's remarks show not only the vanity of our own "Cognitive Elite" but it also shows the lack of connection our cognitive elite feels for its fellow countrymen.

    This is an idea I have seen elsewhere on the right. The basic idea is that the broad lower and lower middle of white America isn't doing anything but getting fat and taking drugs, so, you know what, why don't you just die out and we'll bring in a bunch of people from Latin America and Asia who will work hard. (And, incidentally, enrich us.) The instrumentality of this POV is breathtaking.

    I think this philosophy of “Cognitive Elitism” has always been around to some extent

    Yeah, and if anything it’s been stronger or at least more open in the past (i.e. H.L. Mencken). But the difference is back then the ugliest it ever got was “flooding in Mississippi? Let ‘em drown!”

    (The other difference is that back then it was HBD-aware cognitive elitism, which is a very different and far more rational beast than the cultlike world of politically-correct cognitive elitism).

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    • Replies: @(((Owen)))

    But the difference is back then the ugliest it ever got was “flooding in Mississippi? Let ‘em drown!”

     

    Hardly elitism. The center of America resents Mississippi for fighting constantly and relentlessly to take away our liquor, our birth control, our quality art and music, our political dissent, and our marijuana. For importing oceans of cheap slave labor and working in Congress to send our jobs overseas. For never-ending disloyalty to our common purposes.*

    It's not a question of class. The rest of the country had legit grievances. Should have sent them to join in the fate of Haiti in 1861.

    * Only post-Voting Rights Act reforms have brought Mississippi (and the rest of the deep South) to a less cheap-labor intense position. They were blocking working class whites from voting there even more than they blocked blacks back in Mencken's time.
  95. Kristol wasn’t terribly bad on immigration in recent years, not as good as David Frum, but by no means awful. Unfortunately, that era seems to be ending:

    Trump seems to force people to reveal their true face, as it were.

    You can make a case that America has been great because every—I think John Adams said this—basically if you’re a free society, a capitalist society, after two or three generations of hard work everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled

    Dunno. As I pointed out upthread, he did talk about how he was laboring at politics and war so that his sons could study study” mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture.” And that that would give ” their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain.”

    —whatever. Then, luckily, you have these waves of people coming in from Italy, Ireland, Russia, and now Mexico, who really want to work hard and really want to succeed and really want their kids to live better lives than them and aren’t sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth.

    Not very eloquent, there Bill. But it is interesting to note how you see no difference between Mestizo/Amerind Hispanics and Europeans.

    In that respect, I don’t know how this moment is that different from the early 20th century.

    Let me count the ways:

    Mexico (unlike Ireland, Italy, Germany, Russia, etc) shares a land-border with the USA

    Mexico (unlike Ireland, Italy, Germany, Russia, etc) views huge chunks of US territory as its rightful property.

    Mexico (unlike Ireland, Italy, Germany, Russia, etc) is not racially European

    The USA is no longer interested in Americanizing immigrants

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    • Replies: @(((Owen)))

    Mexico (unlike Ireland, Italy, Germany, Russia, etc) is not racially European

     

    The average Mexican born today is already more white than the average baby born on French, German, or Swedish territory in this generation.
  96. @Jack D
    I think he is not really talking about the white working class. Since when does the working class clip (bond) coupons and live off of the return on their investments? What ethnic group arrived in the US 2 or 3 generations ago and grew up as spoiled children and now lives off of investment income? And are now getting their asses kicked by Asians on math contests, SAT scores, etc?

    That’s a very interesting observation. It is indeed difficult to infer he is referring to blue collar workers from the description he gives. But I doubt he is deliberately referring to jews. It is possible he is in effect speaking of everyone, of all classes even, and the coupon clipping etc serves as a kind of a metaphor meant to apply to all non-immigrant Americans. (Are you sure btw that it is a reference to bonds and not to discounts btw?) Alternatively, it would in character with his solipsism to assume that coupon clipping etc. is the typical American experience. See past Acela, NYC anecdotes.

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    100% yes. "Clipping coupons" was (at one time) a metaphor for living off of investment income.

    As Crawfordmuir explained, nowadays everything is electronic and traceable (and therefore taxable) by the government, because we live in the Land of the Free, so bearer bonds may no longer be issued and apparently the words "clipping coupons" are associated in the mind of the current generation with saving 75 cents on 3 boxes of Tide.

    But in the old fascist America a bearer bond was like cash - if you had the piece of paper, then it was yours and your ownership was not registered with the IRS or anyone else. ( Can you imagine that wealth could be allowed to exist independent of government? You can see immediately what a cesspit of cowboy fascism the old America was. ) How would the trustee know who give the interest to on such a bond? Attached to every bond there was a sheet of little coupons that you would clip and present to the trustee on the interest payment dates and whoever presented the coupon would get the interest payment:

    http://www.coxrail.com/images/bond&coups.jpg

    http://www.celebrateboston.com/image/mbta/bond-coupon-bery.jpg

    But that was the old America, before 1986. I might as well tell you about minstrel shows and how we used to go slave hunting for fun.

  97. @slumber_j

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution?
     
    Deported them to where, exactly?

    How about instead considering a more practically workable thought experiment that entails the deportation--or even better, non-admission--of the lamest people who are here or want to be here illegally? For starters.

    Apparently Trump has authority to go at that to an extent, through the public charge statute.

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  98. I really liked the part about “clipping coupons.” Damn those white working class people for trying to buy as much as they can on their low wages!

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  99. Has Kristol ever had a real job in his life? I detest that guy. He represents every traitor in the elite class. I guess Kristol is considered an elite even though he has never really done anything in his life of note.

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  100. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @someguy
    There is something wrong with our entire society, not just young people. Boomers would sell out their grand children in favor of illegals for a 1% increase in their 401k.

    The fact that Kristol has any platform at all tells you all you need to know about America. Israel gets 10 million a day in aid from America and is essentially a welfare parasite state, and this is how neocons pay back White Americans?

    I think the people wanting the emigrants here and their 401K better off are the segment of the boomers who don’t have grandchildren. They are probably divorced or were never married, and they either didn’t have children or they’re aliened from their own children because the latter resented being raised in a divorced family with all the psychological mess that entails.

    These boomers have moved so much in their lives that they have no sense of community and don’t know their neighbors. They don’t live near their blood kin and rarely see them. They don’t belong to social clubs or voluntary organizations. They are truly atomized people. They’re what you get when all of a normal society’s ties have broken down. They are honestly capable of feeling more empathy for some woeful-looking immigrant they seen on a TV news story than someone they work with every day. They feel betrayed or abandoned by the people in their life, so they don’t feel any need to defend their kin or their nation state.

    The people I know who are hardcore liberals all have a history of trouble in the relationships they had with their own parents, or in their relationships they have with their spouses, ex- or otherwise, and their children, or else they didn’t marry or have kids at all.

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    • Replies: @Forbes
    I represent a lot of the demographic details you describe--but none of the psychological or political characteristics.

    Though I agree with many of your observations, e.g. loss of community, the result of society's ties breaking down, atomization.

    Conservatives and the right might spend some time learning to communicate with these folks rather than writing them off as broken people with troubled relationships and no family. Who wishes that for their fellow man?
  101. @Yan Shen
    Interesting comment. Now, I'm fairly sympathetic to the views of the alternative right on a number of issues. For instance, I think that countries should exist first and foremost for the well-being of their own citizens, a viewpoint which Steve here has referred to as "citizenism". I think that in general multiculturalism has a host of potential drawbacks and that there's certainly empirical evidence suggesting that more homogeneous countries such as Japan fare better by a variety of objective metrics. In particular, it seems like heterogeneity can certainly be a recipe for racial and ethnic tensions and the likes. And without any specific policy proscriptions in mind, at a high level I'm fundamentally in favor of restricting not just illegal immigration but also legal immigration as well for the United States.

    Having stated the above, I've also at times advocated both here and elsewhere a philosophy which I've referred to as cognitive elitism, the simple idea that cognitive capital matters tremendously, especially in an ever increasingly global and competitive society. I once stated that smart people in general probably feel more in common with other smart people than they do with the bottom halves of their respective ethnic bell curves. Race and ethnicity matter and perhaps matter the most, but certainly there are other dimensions along which tribal affiliations splinter, intelligence and ideology being a couple of obvious examples.

    I would argue that for instance China with its lack of political correctness and with a cognitive elitist worldview has approached topics such as intelligence and eugenics with much more boldness than perhaps we have here in the United States. Potentially uplifting your population through the science of modern genetics should be something worthwhile that a country should strive for, as opposed to being something perverse that we as a nation should frown upon. Interestingly enough, the alternative right has by and large focused on the racial and ethnic dimensions of the discussion more so than the cognitive dimension. I've even been accused somewhat negatively of being a eugenicist by others here!

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren't replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations? Hard to argue in the abstract that the country as a whole wouldn't be better off, leaving aside both the potential moral argument against such a policy and the obvious impracticality of putting such an idea to fruition. I assume Bill Kristol's comments were made in semi-jest, but I think in general adopting an orientation more aligned with cognitive elitism may not be a bad way of trying to understand the nuances of modern 21st century global society.

    While anyone of moderate IQ or higher can see the purported and potential upsides to positive eugenics or what you call cognitive elitism, there’s a very clear downside as well.

    The smart don’t breed.

    Just as excess wealth invariably triggers societal collapse, excess IQ leads to reproductive collapse. Societal and cognitive rises and falls are almost perfectly synced in a sine wave.

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  102. @Desiderius
    Kristol's views expressed here are more or less the (usually unspoken) conventional wisdom of the managerial class UMC (Left, Right, and Center) in which I've spent the majority of my life. What has changed is the willingness to take steps to insure that those replacement Americans are in fact better than those they're replacing. Well, not really replacing, just spurring out of their decadence and complacency.

    That willingness has largely evaporated. So even if that conventional wisdom once had some validity, it no longer does, even on its own terms.

    Running a country by Taylorism is an interesting thought experiment. Kristol ought to take it to its logical conclusion: fire the complacent. 3rd+ generation Americans who aren’t earning more than their parents, adjusted for inflation, have to leave. Up or out.

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  103. @Alec Leamas

    Exactly. Has Bill Kristol ever worked a day in his life?
     
    To ask the question is to answer it.

    “Exactly. Has Bill Kristol ever worked a day in his life?”

    “To ask the question is to answer it.”

    Well said. Full disclosure, I held a blue collar job for over 30 years.

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  104. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    Yep. He's showing his age.

    Bit like nobody seems to understand why stripped treasuries or zero couple bonds have that name.

    I was struck by the reference to “clipping coupons.” The class of people he’s disparaging would assume he meant cutting coupons out of the weekly supermarket circular, rather than sitting around collecting the interest payments from bonds, like he does. So he’s illustrating his elite status as someone who really doesn’t need to sully himself with work, even if it’s just what he refers to as his “tiny, pathetic future” in the pundit biz.

    Kristol is fortunate that working-class Americans have no idea who he is or what he stands for. If they did, he couldn’t walk a city block without getting punched in his smirking face.

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  105. Look, to be totally honest, if things are so bad as you say with the white working class, don’t you want to get new Americans in?

    People who makes this argument seem to think that the displaced population is just going to disappear. As if, when those doughty, hard-working Mexicans appear, the lazy blacks and whites are just going to vanish.

    They’ll all still be here, except now they won’t even have jobs. And they’ll have plenty of free time on their hands – time to rob your house, jack your car, cook meth, or any number of a hundred other pastimes.

    ………and I hope this thing isn’t being videotaped or ever shown anywhere. Whatever tiny, pathetic future I have is going to totally collapse.

    Let us all give wide circulation to Kristol’s comments, so that his prediction about his career may come to pass.

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    • Replies: @Jimi
    Also note Bill Kristol speaks of Mexican immigration in terms of a scenario that hasn't been tried yet. When of course USA has had Mexican immigration long enough for us to look at how the 3, 4, and 5th generations are doing.

    They aren't doing well. They are supplementing the dysfunction in the White and Black underclass not creating a working class renewal.
  106. @Yan Shen
    Interesting comment. Now, I'm fairly sympathetic to the views of the alternative right on a number of issues. For instance, I think that countries should exist first and foremost for the well-being of their own citizens, a viewpoint which Steve here has referred to as "citizenism". I think that in general multiculturalism has a host of potential drawbacks and that there's certainly empirical evidence suggesting that more homogeneous countries such as Japan fare better by a variety of objective metrics. In particular, it seems like heterogeneity can certainly be a recipe for racial and ethnic tensions and the likes. And without any specific policy proscriptions in mind, at a high level I'm fundamentally in favor of restricting not just illegal immigration but also legal immigration as well for the United States.

    Having stated the above, I've also at times advocated both here and elsewhere a philosophy which I've referred to as cognitive elitism, the simple idea that cognitive capital matters tremendously, especially in an ever increasingly global and competitive society. I once stated that smart people in general probably feel more in common with other smart people than they do with the bottom halves of their respective ethnic bell curves. Race and ethnicity matter and perhaps matter the most, but certainly there are other dimensions along which tribal affiliations splinter, intelligence and ideology being a couple of obvious examples.

    I would argue that for instance China with its lack of political correctness and with a cognitive elitist worldview has approached topics such as intelligence and eugenics with much more boldness than perhaps we have here in the United States. Potentially uplifting your population through the science of modern genetics should be something worthwhile that a country should strive for, as opposed to being something perverse that we as a nation should frown upon. Interestingly enough, the alternative right has by and large focused on the racial and ethnic dimensions of the discussion more so than the cognitive dimension. I've even been accused somewhat negatively of being a eugenicist by others here!

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren't replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations? Hard to argue in the abstract that the country as a whole wouldn't be better off, leaving aside both the potential moral argument against such a policy and the obvious impracticality of putting such an idea to fruition. I assume Bill Kristol's comments were made in semi-jest, but I think in general adopting an orientation more aligned with cognitive elitism may not be a bad way of trying to understand the nuances of modern 21st century global society.

    Until you are elderly and require care. Or you are elderly and wish to take a daily walk. Then you find out that these people of a different race will abuse you as a patient. Or attack you as you walk.

    Don’t fool yourself. I don’t fear lower class whites as caregivers. And I don’t fear them as I take a walk.

    I’m smart enough to know that the “other” that you have introduced to America or Europe for that matter, will take advantage of my feebleness.

    I’m not old but one sees this daily with elderly whites, abused by nonwhite caregivers and abused by said persons if they take a stroll.

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  107. @Lot

    after two or three generations of hard work everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever
     
    With the welfare state new immigrants and their children can move directly to the decadent, lazy, and spoiled status. Two generations of hard work is no longer required.

    Two? Every white I know has been here for generations. And yes. Today’s immigrants come to a fully developed country and proceed to rob it blind. Affirmative action and welfare. The first thing most immigrants do when they step in is to insult and slander white people. Frankly, I’m sick of it.

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  108. @syonredux

    You can make a case that America has been great because every—I think John Adams said this—basically if you’re a free society, a capitalist society, after two or three generations of hard work everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever.
     
    Dunno. John Adams did say this:

    The science of government it is my duty to study, more than all other sciences; the arts of legislation and administration and negotiation ought to take the place of, indeed exclude, in a manner, all other arts.

    I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.

    Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain.

    John Adams, Letter to Abigail Adams (12 May 1780)
     

    I kinda think Kristol was just making that Adams attribution up. I can’t think of any quote remotely approaching what Kristol is attributing to Adams. And there is plenty among that era’s writings that diametrically oppose Kristolism.

    The I-will-study-war-so-my-sons-can-study-philosophy quote is not saying, I’ll work hard so my sons can goof off. It’s saying, if we win war now, our sons can have the blessings of peace.

    A pox on Kristol.

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    • Agree: syonredux
    • Replies: @syonredux

    The I-will-study-war-so-my-sons-can-study-philosophy quote is not saying, I’ll work hard so my sons can goof off. It’s saying, if we win war now, our sons can have the blessings of peace.
     
    Indeed. I quoted it as a way to illustrate John Adams' actual thinking regarding subsequent generations of Americans.
  109. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    It’s like Animal Farm. Pigs use the horse to its last ounce of strength and send it to the glue factory.

    Neocons have been asking white Americans to support Israel, fight Middle East wars, and vote for politicians who favored the interests of the globalists. For three or four decades, most of the pie went to those at the top.

    And now, this top neocons says “toss out white trash and replace them with foreigners”.

    Welcome to the Glue Factory.

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  110. @Yan Shen
    You know I've often thought to myself, "Man how great would it be if we woke up tomorrow and a Lee Kuan Yew style benevolent dictator ran the United States of America instead of the current crop of clueless politicians in our dysfunctional political system?"

    Imagine if we had a man who understood the fundamental realities of nature and who knew how to apply those principles towards governing a multiracial society? Then America might be on top for the next 200 years instead of quite possibly devolving into the next Brazil.

    I would argue that this is in fact why the alternative right should embrace East Asians as allies in the fight against the current PC insanity. If ever the currents of multiculturalism are to be reversed in the modern day West, I suspect that the East Asian example will have much to do with dispelling the prevailing leftist dogmas here...

    “You know I’ve often thought to myself, “Man how great would it be if we woke up tomorrow and a Lee Kuan Yew style benevolent dictator ran the United States of America instead of the current crop of clueless politicians in our dysfunctional political system?”

    Singapore is small.
    America is vast.

    Benevolent dictatorships do not scale well.

    BTW – Asian dictatorships are not always benevolent or efficient.
    The Japaneses running Hawaii are neither.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Singapore is small.
    America is vast.
     
    Exactly. Even China can't replicate Singapore's benevolent authoritarianism (though Singpore is not a "dictatorship" as you stated).

    I think traditional Anglo-American civic and governing traditions along Burkean lines works and would work best for the United States.
  111. @Almost Missouri
    I kinda think Kristol was just making that Adams attribution up. I can't think of any quote remotely approaching what Kristol is attributing to Adams. And there is plenty among that era's writings that diametrically oppose Kristolism.

    The I-will-study-war-so-my-sons-can-study-philosophy quote is not saying, I'll work hard so my sons can goof off. It's saying, if we win war now, our sons can have the blessings of peace.

    A pox on Kristol.

    The I-will-study-war-so-my-sons-can-study-philosophy quote is not saying, I’ll work hard so my sons can goof off. It’s saying, if we win war now, our sons can have the blessings of peace.

    Indeed. I quoted it as a way to illustrate John Adams’ actual thinking regarding subsequent generations of Americans.

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  112. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    I think a lot of Jews in Israel are lazy and useless. Not all Jews are smart and industrious, after all, I say replace them with Arabs and Muslims.

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  113. I don’t much care for Kristol’s social engineering ideas and remarks. Who the he** put him in charge of changing the demography and ethnic stock of the US population? These are the rantings of a mad man. Could someone not get this guy an honest job and not let his warped mind come up with this ‘Remake America’ project hallucination? Does he think native US citizens are robots that passively will allow their country to be invaded and taken over, and their livelihoods smashed? I don’t think he understands this country and its people very well–or any country and its people, for that matter. Our fathers and grandfathers gave their lives for this country and for US — not a chunk of land to be invaded and our population socially re-engineered b/c someone in DC thought it sounded like a cool idea. Kristol lives inside a sheltered, privileged, and very detached DC Beltway Bubble. Something tells me that this guy never has pumped his own gas at a 7-11 or Kwik Stop in Alabama or Iowa. How about we deport Kristol to some other place because someone — how about me — decided that he is a lazy useless loser.

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  114. @The Z Blog
    One of the unexpected byproducts of the information age is that conversations that used to go on behind closed doors are now had out in public. The old line was you never speak of religion or politics around the staff. The reason was that educated elites had to be free to consider all options and debate all options. To do so in front of the rabble would risk a revolt as the rabble could not appreciate the need for playing devil's advocate, arguing for effect and simply enjoying the debate.

    Fifty years ago Murray and Kristol would have this debate on a college campus in front of other educated elites. Both would be free to take extreme positions just to test the other and score rhetorical points. Today dirtbags like me get to watch it on youtube while my old lady jacks up the corner of the doublewide.

    One of the unexpected byproducts of the information age is that conversations that used to go on behind closed doors are now had out in public.

    And of course there are the conversations which do go on behind closed doors which become public, to wit, Donald Sterling.

    So let’s see, Sterling is held accountable for private conversations and Bill Kristol is given a pass for public statements.

    Blacks really are treated as Holy.

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  115. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    “Contempt can and will be met with contempt”

    and

    “Go ahead, Bill–tell us how you REALLY feel about Gentiles!”

    and

    No matter how fat and lazy and ugly a redneck, he’ll fit in…

    “I actually disagree with this and in fact would argue that it can be proven to be empirically false. Race and ethnicity matter yes, but as I’ve argued that the fallacy of some on the alternative right is that these are somehow the only dimensions of tribal affiliation. I would argue that in fact in today’s increasingly global and interconnected society, intelligence has also become increasingly more relevant…”

    When I was young I used to marvel at how ruling elites throughout history that got their heads all chopped off could have possible been so stupid. Didn’t they see it coming? Weren’t they paying attention? What did they expect to happen? I couldn’t understand it. These days it doesn’t seem as hard to fathom.

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  116. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    The reality is they bumped more Latinos and Blacks out of worked than whites. The late Terry Anderson can tell you this. The field they most compete with whites is construction but how many middle age white guys want to do car wash jobs . Also, most of the displacement is in heavy immigrant states like Ca and Texas a lot less so in Vermont or Maine. I want less illegal immigrants not because they displaced white folks out of jobs but because they work in lower skilled jobs than most whites do anyways; and the their kids are on the lunch programs. A study by a liberal group in Ca shows white poverty adjusted for cost of living at 17 percent and Latinos at 33 percent.

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  117. @Yan Shen
    You know I've often thought to myself, "Man how great would it be if we woke up tomorrow and a Lee Kuan Yew style benevolent dictator ran the United States of America instead of the current crop of clueless politicians in our dysfunctional political system?"

    Imagine if we had a man who understood the fundamental realities of nature and who knew how to apply those principles towards governing a multiracial society? Then America might be on top for the next 200 years instead of quite possibly devolving into the next Brazil.

    I would argue that this is in fact why the alternative right should embrace East Asians as allies in the fight against the current PC insanity. If ever the currents of multiculturalism are to be reversed in the modern day West, I suspect that the East Asian example will have much to do with dispelling the prevailing leftist dogmas here...

    If Lew Kwan Yew came back and was appointed U.S. president, we would have an immigration moratorium in place by COB the next day. I lived and worked in Singapore BTW back when he was a senior minister.

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  118. @oddsbodkins
    Kristol seems to think that he is part of the cognitive elite. Nearly everything he has written over the past 20 years suggests otherwise.

    As his fellow tribesman Jon Taffer might say: He’s arrogant in failure.

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  119. @Yan Shen
    Interesting comment. Now, I'm fairly sympathetic to the views of the alternative right on a number of issues. For instance, I think that countries should exist first and foremost for the well-being of their own citizens, a viewpoint which Steve here has referred to as "citizenism". I think that in general multiculturalism has a host of potential drawbacks and that there's certainly empirical evidence suggesting that more homogeneous countries such as Japan fare better by a variety of objective metrics. In particular, it seems like heterogeneity can certainly be a recipe for racial and ethnic tensions and the likes. And without any specific policy proscriptions in mind, at a high level I'm fundamentally in favor of restricting not just illegal immigration but also legal immigration as well for the United States.

    Having stated the above, I've also at times advocated both here and elsewhere a philosophy which I've referred to as cognitive elitism, the simple idea that cognitive capital matters tremendously, especially in an ever increasingly global and competitive society. I once stated that smart people in general probably feel more in common with other smart people than they do with the bottom halves of their respective ethnic bell curves. Race and ethnicity matter and perhaps matter the most, but certainly there are other dimensions along which tribal affiliations splinter, intelligence and ideology being a couple of obvious examples.

    I would argue that for instance China with its lack of political correctness and with a cognitive elitist worldview has approached topics such as intelligence and eugenics with much more boldness than perhaps we have here in the United States. Potentially uplifting your population through the science of modern genetics should be something worthwhile that a country should strive for, as opposed to being something perverse that we as a nation should frown upon. Interestingly enough, the alternative right has by and large focused on the racial and ethnic dimensions of the discussion more so than the cognitive dimension. I've even been accused somewhat negatively of being a eugenicist by others here!

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren't replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations? Hard to argue in the abstract that the country as a whole wouldn't be better off, leaving aside both the potential moral argument against such a policy and the obvious impracticality of putting such an idea to fruition. I assume Bill Kristol's comments were made in semi-jest, but I think in general adopting an orientation more aligned with cognitive elitism may not be a bad way of trying to understand the nuances of modern 21st century global society.

    Shared ancestry is great. Share religion is great too. High IQ is wonderful. All those are important traits. But what *I* want for our country’s elites is a group of people who care about their fellow citizens who happen to be their cognitive- and socio-economic inferiors, in other words an elite that possesses noblesse oblige. That, I value more than shared ancestry, shared religion, and high IQ in our leadership class.

    Whether high IQ or low IQ, bringing in a large number of foreigners (ones who don’t assimilate as well as previous cohorts of immigrants) to replace the native workforce is completely inimical to that notion of that elite noblesse oblige. That’s feudal lords replacing one set of peasants with a more docile set (which, in the end, is actually harmful for the lords as well).

    I want to see an elite class that, say in times of war, sends its sons to die first with pistols in hand, leading their more ordinary countrymen. After all, what is leadership for, if not to wield it to better one’s country and all of its citizens? Otherwise it’s just parasitic banditry.

    And I write this as a former immigrant and a naturalized American.

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    • Agree: Desiderius, iffen
    • Replies: @Captain Tripps
    Can't use the "Agree" button, so, well stated. And I agree.
  120. @Jenner Ickham Errican
    Americans don’t want a short alien looking dude running the country. Obama looked weird, but he isn’t short. (Plus, he’s a “clean, articulate” black, and to many Americans that was/is automatically magical.)

    Lee Kuan Yew ran a tiny hothouse city-state with few civil liberties compared to the U.S. I imagine one of the first things your wise Yoda overlord would mandate is strict gun control — “For societal harmony and security! Mmmm-hmmmm.”

    No thanks.

    Can I volunteer? I am much taller than Lee Kuan Yew (I am 6′ 2″) and no one has ever said that I look weird.

    And I hate gun control with a passion. I think that the 2nd and 10th Amendments to the Constitution are perhaps the most abused and violated amendments.

    If I were in charge, it’s the immediate repeal of the NFA. Class 3 weapons for everyone!

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  121. @Tulip
    It would be great if we had a crop of right wing Asians, and such people exist. However, my sense is that the Asians are mostly angling to take over and push out the Jews, and are always well represented in SJW organizations.

    On the other hand, seeing the Asians and the Mexicans forcefully push the Jews and Blacks out of their political niche (in the name of Social Justice no doubt) and into the political void, well, it kind of makes me want to check my white privilege.

    It would be great if we had a crop of right wing Asians, and such people exist. However, my sense is that the Asians are mostly angling to take over and push out the Jews, and are always well represented in SJW organizations.

    As with whites, there is a good deal (sometimes very stark) bifurcation among Asians, mostly along ethnic and religious lines.

    An evengelical Korean-American or a Catholic Vietnamese-American is going to be far more in tune with the right or even the “alt-right” (whatever that may mean) than, say, atheistic Chinese-Americans or Hindu Indian-Americans, especially recent arrivals, who are essentially the new Jews, complete with a sense of victimhood, SJW mentality, and disregard for Christian whites and the traditional Christian Anglo-American culture.

    Or as it was said at one of my almae matres, there are the CCC* Asians and then there are the non-CCC Asians.

    *CCC = Campus Crusade for Christ.

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  122. @Langley
    "You know I’ve often thought to myself, “Man how great would it be if we woke up tomorrow and a Lee Kuan Yew style benevolent dictator ran the United States of America instead of the current crop of clueless politicians in our dysfunctional political system?”

    Singapore is small.
    America is vast.

    Benevolent dictatorships do not scale well.

    BTW - Asian dictatorships are not always benevolent or efficient.
    The Japaneses running Hawaii are neither.

    Singapore is small.
    America is vast.

    Exactly. Even China can’t replicate Singapore’s benevolent authoritarianism (though Singpore is not a “dictatorship” as you stated).

    I think traditional Anglo-American civic and governing traditions along Burkean lines works and would work best for the United States.

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  123. Someone tell this Kristol fool that people clipping coupons are the exact opposite of spoiled . On second thought don’t anyone waste 5 seconds of their life . .

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    • Replies: @res
    Clipping coupons is a great metaphor to find out more about people's backgrounds. FWIW although I am aware of the bond interpretation, my first instinct is to think of the newspaper supermarket kind.
  124. @Yan Shen
    Interesting comment. Now, I'm fairly sympathetic to the views of the alternative right on a number of issues. For instance, I think that countries should exist first and foremost for the well-being of their own citizens, a viewpoint which Steve here has referred to as "citizenism". I think that in general multiculturalism has a host of potential drawbacks and that there's certainly empirical evidence suggesting that more homogeneous countries such as Japan fare better by a variety of objective metrics. In particular, it seems like heterogeneity can certainly be a recipe for racial and ethnic tensions and the likes. And without any specific policy proscriptions in mind, at a high level I'm fundamentally in favor of restricting not just illegal immigration but also legal immigration as well for the United States.

    Having stated the above, I've also at times advocated both here and elsewhere a philosophy which I've referred to as cognitive elitism, the simple idea that cognitive capital matters tremendously, especially in an ever increasingly global and competitive society. I once stated that smart people in general probably feel more in common with other smart people than they do with the bottom halves of their respective ethnic bell curves. Race and ethnicity matter and perhaps matter the most, but certainly there are other dimensions along which tribal affiliations splinter, intelligence and ideology being a couple of obvious examples.

    I would argue that for instance China with its lack of political correctness and with a cognitive elitist worldview has approached topics such as intelligence and eugenics with much more boldness than perhaps we have here in the United States. Potentially uplifting your population through the science of modern genetics should be something worthwhile that a country should strive for, as opposed to being something perverse that we as a nation should frown upon. Interestingly enough, the alternative right has by and large focused on the racial and ethnic dimensions of the discussion more so than the cognitive dimension. I've even been accused somewhat negatively of being a eugenicist by others here!

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren't replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations? Hard to argue in the abstract that the country as a whole wouldn't be better off, leaving aside both the potential moral argument against such a policy and the obvious impracticality of putting such an idea to fruition. I assume Bill Kristol's comments were made in semi-jest, but I think in general adopting an orientation more aligned with cognitive elitism may not be a bad way of trying to understand the nuances of modern 21st century global society.

    … but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren’t replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations?

    Another question:

    What would happen if a family disowned and turned out on the street its least capable child, and adopted a brighter one?

    Answer: You would no longer have a family.

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  125. Funny trivia: Trump owns the building adjacent to the site of the original capitol building in NYC, where the first Congress was located, where George Washington was inaugurated, and perhaps even more importantly, where the 1st U.S. immigration law was passed in 1790.

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  126. Never cared for Murray after he showed his globalist slant and lets replace white working class Americans in a TNR article, where he praised Hillary and thought it just great that whitey was getting replaced by Hindu Brahmans whom he considered real Americans.

    The article was dripping was contempt for white working class Americans. He saw people like myself and all the others who keep the country functioning, whose families provide the soldiers and cops to keep total wimps like himself and his globalist paymasters safe.

    Screw him. He showed himself to be just as bad as Kristol.

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  127. @Yan Shen
    Interesting comment. Now, I'm fairly sympathetic to the views of the alternative right on a number of issues. For instance, I think that countries should exist first and foremost for the well-being of their own citizens, a viewpoint which Steve here has referred to as "citizenism". I think that in general multiculturalism has a host of potential drawbacks and that there's certainly empirical evidence suggesting that more homogeneous countries such as Japan fare better by a variety of objective metrics. In particular, it seems like heterogeneity can certainly be a recipe for racial and ethnic tensions and the likes. And without any specific policy proscriptions in mind, at a high level I'm fundamentally in favor of restricting not just illegal immigration but also legal immigration as well for the United States.

    Having stated the above, I've also at times advocated both here and elsewhere a philosophy which I've referred to as cognitive elitism, the simple idea that cognitive capital matters tremendously, especially in an ever increasingly global and competitive society. I once stated that smart people in general probably feel more in common with other smart people than they do with the bottom halves of their respective ethnic bell curves. Race and ethnicity matter and perhaps matter the most, but certainly there are other dimensions along which tribal affiliations splinter, intelligence and ideology being a couple of obvious examples.

    I would argue that for instance China with its lack of political correctness and with a cognitive elitist worldview has approached topics such as intelligence and eugenics with much more boldness than perhaps we have here in the United States. Potentially uplifting your population through the science of modern genetics should be something worthwhile that a country should strive for, as opposed to being something perverse that we as a nation should frown upon. Interestingly enough, the alternative right has by and large focused on the racial and ethnic dimensions of the discussion more so than the cognitive dimension. I've even been accused somewhat negatively of being a eugenicist by others here!

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren't replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations? Hard to argue in the abstract that the country as a whole wouldn't be better off, leaving aside both the potential moral argument against such a policy and the obvious impracticality of putting such an idea to fruition. I assume Bill Kristol's comments were made in semi-jest, but I think in general adopting an orientation more aligned with cognitive elitism may not be a bad way of trying to understand the nuances of modern 21st century global society.

    Importing a high functioning minority gave us Bill Kristol. We are not better off for it.

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  128. @Yan Shen

    No matter how fat and lazy and ugly a redneck, he’ll fit in our society a thousand times better than a hard working member of a different race. This in the end is what it comes down to.
     
    I actually disagree with this and in fact would argue that it can be proven to be empirically false. Race and ethnicity matter yes, but as I've argued that the fallacy of some on the alternative right is that these are somehow the only dimensions of tribal affiliation. I would argue that in fact in today's increasingly global and interconnected society, intelligence has also become increasingly more relevant as well. Think of social compatibility as a multi-variable function where race and ethnicity may in fact be the two most important factors but certainly other salient attributes matter as well.

    That being said, I've stated that I don't really have any specific policy ideas in mind about how we as a nation or any nation in particular would adopt a more cognitive elitist point of view, although I've brought up China's approach towards eugenics as something admirable.

    In general, sentiments like the one espoused above represent a fundamental fallacy that I believe is worth pointing out.

    How would anybody named “Yan Shen” know whether or not a redneck would fit into American society? I would not presume to tell him whether or not a coolie would fit into Chinese society. Your arrogance argues against your being here.

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  129. @Yan Shen

    No matter how fat and lazy and ugly a redneck, he’ll fit in our society a thousand times better than a hard working member of a different race. This in the end is what it comes down to.
     
    I actually disagree with this and in fact would argue that it can be proven to be empirically false. Race and ethnicity matter yes, but as I've argued that the fallacy of some on the alternative right is that these are somehow the only dimensions of tribal affiliation. I would argue that in fact in today's increasingly global and interconnected society, intelligence has also become increasingly more relevant as well. Think of social compatibility as a multi-variable function where race and ethnicity may in fact be the two most important factors but certainly other salient attributes matter as well.

    That being said, I've stated that I don't really have any specific policy ideas in mind about how we as a nation or any nation in particular would adopt a more cognitive elitist point of view, although I've brought up China's approach towards eugenics as something admirable.

    In general, sentiments like the one espoused above represent a fundamental fallacy that I believe is worth pointing out.

    I would argue that in fact in today’s increasingly global and interconnected society, intelligence has also become increasingly more relevant as well.

    Yan Shen! Yan Shen!

    This is the Cognitive Elite police!

    Step away from Wired and PC World!

    I repeat–step away!

    Drop the CHIP and Computerworld!

    Keep your hands where we can see them!

    Repeat–step away from the tech-fi mags before you further injure your powers of judgment and thus impair the American cognitive elites’ g!

    Now meet me out back and show me how to hack together a wood splitting machine from crap found in the weeds behind the barn. While telling me family stories about your local hills and hollers going back centuries that bear directly on your engineering and fabrication of the same.

    I whizz on your Global Interconnected Society from a great height…and will continue till the next time my roof collapses from the snow and the editor of Mac World shows up within 10 minutes to help, with all the right tools, all the right instincts, a kickass work ethic, a Stanley growler of hot espresso, a sack of sammiches and elk sausage, and no expectation of reward because Hey, Man, We’re All Family And Hell, Olorin, You’ve Done The Same For Me And Mine, Buddy.

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  130. @Alec Leamas
    Regression to the mean is a big problem with this view. The 140 IQ Pakistani Brain Surgeon is eminently capable of blessing his new country with a 100 IQ layabout.

    The premium of Asian intelligence over white American intelligence is negligible and all but disappears with some preference for northern European whites. (and, of course, the reported numbers rely upon the honesty of shame cultures including China).

    I wouldn't say that immigration with a eugenic aim isn't worthwhile, but that you would really need to drill down and think about how you would make a lasting beneficial impact balanced against societal cohesion.

    There is no premium of Asian intelligence over White American intelligence. Those who come here are not typical of their homelands. We don’t get the rice farmers and street sweepers.

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    • Replies: @Twinkie

    There is no premium of Asian intelligence over White American intelligence.
     
    Although that might be true in general, they complement - East Asians with higher visuo-spatial/quantitative and Northwestern Europeans with verbal.

    Those who come here are not typical of their homelands. We don’t get the rice farmers and street sweepers.
     
    There are not many rice farmers and street sweepers left in East Asia. This isn't the 1950's.
  131. @Yan Shen
    You know I've often thought to myself, "Man how great would it be if we woke up tomorrow and a Lee Kuan Yew style benevolent dictator ran the United States of America instead of the current crop of clueless politicians in our dysfunctional political system?"

    Imagine if we had a man who understood the fundamental realities of nature and who knew how to apply those principles towards governing a multiracial society? Then America might be on top for the next 200 years instead of quite possibly devolving into the next Brazil.

    I would argue that this is in fact why the alternative right should embrace East Asians as allies in the fight against the current PC insanity. If ever the currents of multiculturalism are to be reversed in the modern day West, I suspect that the East Asian example will have much to do with dispelling the prevailing leftist dogmas here...

    Replace our own elites with Chinese elites? Take your Trojan horse elsewhere.

    BTW, it does not seem logical to “reverse multiculturalism” by allying with Orientals. Are they not from a very different culture?

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I think its pretty viable if the traditional West proves incapable of keeping itself alive. Our takeover would be a mercykilling, you know. At least order will remain, if a very different one.

    But I think we still have four years of Trump to see if the West can turn itself around.
  132. @Discard
    There is no premium of Asian intelligence over White American intelligence. Those who come here are not typical of their homelands. We don't get the rice farmers and street sweepers.

    There is no premium of Asian intelligence over White American intelligence.

    Although that might be true in general, they complement – East Asians with higher visuo-spatial/quantitative and Northwestern Europeans with verbal.

    Those who come here are not typical of their homelands. We don’t get the rice farmers and street sweepers.

    There are not many rice farmers and street sweepers left in East Asia. This isn’t the 1950′s.

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    That might be true in general, they complement – East Asians with higher visuo-spatial/quantitative and Northwestern Europeans with verbal.

    They may "complement" in some sense, but don't NW Euros produce sufficient numbers of people talented in visuo-spatial and quantitative skills to keep the country running--and running well?

    Plus, what about creativity and its synergy within the same brain with visual-spatial, quant, or verbal?

    I mean no disrespect toward Orientals by the above comments.

    , @Discard
    About five years ago, I read that 74% of China's work force are in agriculture. That would be about a billion farmers?
  133. @Twinkie

    There is no premium of Asian intelligence over White American intelligence.
     
    Although that might be true in general, they complement - East Asians with higher visuo-spatial/quantitative and Northwestern Europeans with verbal.

    Those who come here are not typical of their homelands. We don’t get the rice farmers and street sweepers.
     
    There are not many rice farmers and street sweepers left in East Asia. This isn't the 1950's.

    That might be true in general, they complement – East Asians with higher visuo-spatial/quantitative and Northwestern Europeans with verbal.

    They may “complement” in some sense, but don’t NW Euros produce sufficient numbers of people talented in visuo-spatial and quantitative skills to keep the country running–and running well?

    Plus, what about creativity and its synergy within the same brain with visual-spatial, quant, or verbal?

    I mean no disrespect toward Orientals by the above comments.

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  134. @oddsbodkins
    Kristol seems to think that he is part of the cognitive elite. Nearly everything he has written over the past 20 years suggests otherwise.

    OMG what a fat slob. How can a man let himself go like that? When your only skill in like is to inherit family influence, you’re supposed to be a svelte and strong man of leisure. Please the public with how well you are living that station so far above your talents that fate has handed you.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Desiderius

    How can a man let himself go like that?
     
    A steady diet of cognitive dissonance. He's been mainlining cortisol for awhile now.
  135. @ATX Hipster

    in order to give their Children a right to study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary, Tapestry and Porcelain
     
    "...in order to give their Children a right to study Womyn's Studies, LGBT Studies, and Masked Rioting Studies, and learn to hate their Forefathers and everything we've built."


    BTW, did the capitalization of all nouns come to English from German? And when did English lose that?

    BTW, did the capitalization of all nouns come to English from German? And when did English lose that?

    Noah Webster published his first reader in 1783. Spelling and grammar books followed in the next three years. Before that, spelling was chaos and English shared with the other north Europe languages a fetish for marking all nouns with majuscules.

    Webster became founding editor of the nation’s most influential newspaper—the American Minerva—in 1793 with Alex Hamilton’s support. Webster continued publishing revised editions of his student readers and gradually developed the American style and standardized spellings. Those readers made Webster a millionaire and sold well over 100 million copies in the 1800s. By the time of Webster’s first dictionary in 1806, the style and written language of the founders a generation before was an anachronism in the young nation.

    Hawthorne (b. 1804), Emerson (b. 1803), Thoreau (b. 1817), and Twain (b. 1835) wrote all their lives very much like Americans do today. The style of writing had been fixed once and for all by Webster and his times.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Noah Webster deserved his riches.
    , @ATX Hipster
    Thanks, that's interesting. I hadn't realized Webster had personally influenced the language so much.
  136. @snorlax

    I think this philosophy of “Cognitive Elitism” has always been around to some extent
     
    Yeah, and if anything it's been stronger or at least more open in the past (i.e. H.L. Mencken). But the difference is back then the ugliest it ever got was "flooding in Mississippi? Let 'em drown!"

    (The other difference is that back then it was HBD-aware cognitive elitism, which is a very different and far more rational beast than the cultlike world of politically-correct cognitive elitism).

    But the difference is back then the ugliest it ever got was “flooding in Mississippi? Let ‘em drown!”

    Hardly elitism. The center of America resents Mississippi for fighting constantly and relentlessly to take away our liquor, our birth control, our quality art and music, our political dissent, and our marijuana. For importing oceans of cheap slave labor and working in Congress to send our jobs overseas. For never-ending disloyalty to our common purposes.*

    It’s not a question of class. The rest of the country had legit grievances. Should have sent them to join in the fate of Haiti in 1861.

    * Only post-Voting Rights Act reforms have brought Mississippi (and the rest of the deep South) to a less cheap-labor intense position. They were blocking working class whites from voting there even more than they blocked blacks back in Mencken’s time.

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  137. @syonredux

    Kristol wasn’t terribly bad on immigration in recent years, not as good as David Frum, but by no means awful. Unfortunately, that era seems to be ending:
     
    Trump seems to force people to reveal their true face, as it were.

    You can make a case that America has been great because every—I think John Adams said this—basically if you’re a free society, a capitalist society, after two or three generations of hard work everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled
     
    Dunno. As I pointed out upthread, he did talk about how he was laboring at politics and war so that his sons could study study" mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture." And that that would give " their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain."

    —whatever. Then, luckily, you have these waves of people coming in from Italy, Ireland, Russia, and now Mexico, who really want to work hard and really want to succeed and really want their kids to live better lives than them and aren’t sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth.
     
    Not very eloquent, there Bill. But it is interesting to note how you see no difference between Mestizo/Amerind Hispanics and Europeans.

    In that respect, I don’t know how this moment is that different from the early 20th century.
     
    Let me count the ways:


    Mexico (unlike Ireland, Italy, Germany, Russia, etc) shares a land-border with the USA

    Mexico (unlike Ireland, Italy, Germany, Russia, etc) views huge chunks of US territory as its rightful property.

    Mexico (unlike Ireland, Italy, Germany, Russia, etc) is not racially European

    The USA is no longer interested in Americanizing immigrants

    Mexico (unlike Ireland, Italy, Germany, Russia, etc) is not racially European

    The average Mexican born today is already more white than the average baby born on French, German, or Swedish territory in this generation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @snorlax
    The average of me and Magic Johnson is HIV-positive. And black.
    , @AndrewR
    If you consider mestizos to be whiter than Arabs.

    I don't really.
    , @syonredux

    The average Mexican born today is already more white than the average baby born on French, German, or Swedish territory in this generation.
     
    Dunno. Levels of Amerind ancestry in Mexico are extremely high. Of course, elites tend to have significantly more European ancestry:

    A 2006 study conducted by Mexico's National Institute of Genomic Medicine (INMEGEN), which genotyped 104 samples, reported that mestizo Mexicans are 58.96% European, 35.05% "Asian" (primarily Amerindian), and 5.03% Other.[11]
    According to a 2009 report by the Mexican Genome Project, which sampled 300 mestizos from six Mexican states, the gene pool of the Mexican mestizo population was calculated to be 55.2% percent indigenous, 41.8% European, 1.0% African, and 1.2% Asian.[12]
    A 2014 autosomal DNA study, which analysed data from 1622 samples from all of the Mexican regions, found that Native American ancestry is highest in the centre/south of the country with the north showing the highest proportion of European Ancestry. African ancestry is generally low across Mexico except for a few coastal regions. In conclusion, Native American ancestry accounts for 56% of the heritage of the population, followed by the European (37%) and the African (5%).[13]
    Additional studies suggests a tendency relating a higher European admixture with a higher socioeconomic status and a higher Amerindian ancestry with a lower socioeconomic status: a study made exclusively on low income Mestizos residing in Mexico City found the mean admixture to be 0.590, 0.348, and 0.062 for Amerindian, European and African respectively whereas the European admixture increased to an average of around 70% on mestizos belonging to a higher socioeconomical level.[14] In 2011, an autosomal dna study was conducted in Mexico city, with 1,310 samples, showing the average proportion of Native American, European, and African ancestry for the population to be 64%, 32%, and 4% respectively. Additional autosomal dna studies conducted on people from Mexico city show a predominate Native American background, with Native American ancestry ranging from 61-69% in 5 different studies. The number of people sampled in these studies ranged from 66 to 984 people.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mestizos_in_Mexico
    , @syonredux
    Since I hate waiting:

    The average Mexican born today is already more white than the average baby born on French, German, or Swedish territory in this generation.
     
    Dunno. Levels of Amerind ancestry in Mexico are extremely high. Of course, elites tend to have significantly more European ancestry:

    A 2006 study conducted by Mexico’s National Institute of Genomic Medicine (INMEGEN), which genotyped 104 samples, reported that mestizo Mexicans are 58.96% European, 35.05% “Asian” (primarily Amerindian), and 5.03% Other.[11]
    According to a 2009 report by the Mexican Genome Project, which sampled 300 mestizos from six Mexican states, the gene pool of the Mexican mestizo population was calculated to be 55.2% percent indigenous, 41.8% European, 1.0% African, and 1.2% Asian.[12]
    A 2014 autosomal DNA study, which analysed data from 1622 samples from all of the Mexican regions, found that Native American ancestry is highest in the centre/south of the country with the north showing the highest proportion of European Ancestry. African ancestry is generally low across Mexico except for a few coastal regions. In conclusion, Native American ancestry accounts for 56% of the heritage of the population, followed by the European (37%) and the African (5%).[13]


    Additional studies suggests a tendency relating a higher European admixture with a higher socioeconomic status and a higher Amerindian ancestry with a lower socioeconomic status: a study made exclusively on low income Mestizos residing in Mexico City found the mean admixture to be 0.590, 0.348, and 0.062 for Amerindian, European and African respectively whereas the European admixture increased to an average of around 70% on mestizos belonging to a higher socioeconomical level.[14] In 2011, an autosomal dna study was conducted in Mexico city, with 1,310 samples, showing the average proportion of Native American, European, and African ancestry for the population to be 64%, 32%, and 4% respectively. Additional autosomal dna studies conducted on people from Mexico city show a predominate Native American background, with Native American ancestry ranging from 61-69% in 5 different studies. The number of people sampled in these studies ranged from 66 to 984 people.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mestizos_in_Mexico
  138. @EriK
    I assumed he meant clipping bond coupons.

    Exactly. He’s either not talking about the working class but those living on inherited wealth, or mixing metaphors. Or sort of combining the two. Perhaps he simply means a generation living off the patrimony of their sturdier forebears. In which case he may not be too far off.

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  139. @(((Owen)))

    BTW, did the capitalization of all nouns come to English from German? And when did English lose that?
     
    Noah Webster published his first reader in 1783. Spelling and grammar books followed in the next three years. Before that, spelling was chaos and English shared with the other north Europe languages a fetish for marking all nouns with majuscules.

    Webster became founding editor of the nation's most influential newspaper—the American Minerva—in 1793 with Alex Hamilton's support. Webster continued publishing revised editions of his student readers and gradually developed the American style and standardized spellings. Those readers made Webster a millionaire and sold well over 100 million copies in the 1800s. By the time of Webster's first dictionary in 1806, the style and written language of the founders a generation before was an anachronism in the young nation.

    Hawthorne (b. 1804), Emerson (b. 1803), Thoreau (b. 1817), and Twain (b. 1835) wrote all their lives very much like Americans do today. The style of writing had been fixed once and for all by Webster and his times.

    Noah Webster deserved his riches.

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    • Replies: @Desiderius
    His American English proved a useful refuge amidst the polyglot flood.

    https://archive.org/details/americanlanguage00mencuoft

  140. @syonredux

    You can make a case that America has been great because every—I think John Adams said this—basically if you’re a free society, a capitalist society, after two or three generations of hard work everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever.
     
    Dunno. John Adams did say this:

    The science of government it is my duty to study, more than all other sciences; the arts of legislation and administration and negotiation ought to take the place of, indeed exclude, in a manner, all other arts.

    I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.

    Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain.

    John Adams, Letter to Abigail Adams (12 May 1780)
     

    It’s a saying by Bismarck, who was quite the wordsmith:

    “Die erste Generation verdient das Geld, die zweite verwaltet das Vermögen, die dritte studiert Kunstgeschichte und die vierte verkommt vollends.”

    “The first generation earns the money, the second manages the wealth, the third studies history of art, and the fourth degenerates completely.”

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  141. … At one point, Dr. Murray explained how, though he never warmed to Donald Trump, the 2016 election did lead him to adopt a restrictionist position on low-skilled immigration. Dr. Kristol replied that he’d “actually sort of gone the opposite way on immigration.” …

    When the heat goes up people start flocking to their own.

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    • Agree: syonredux
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Kristol's more like a chicken with his head cut off presently.
    , @Opinionator
    Interesting comment.
    , @Chrisnonymous
    Since you returned to Russia, your English has gotten worse. Have you noticed yourself?
  142. @(((Owen)))

    Mexico (unlike Ireland, Italy, Germany, Russia, etc) is not racially European

     

    The average Mexican born today is already more white than the average baby born on French, German, or Swedish territory in this generation.

    The average of me and Magic Johnson is HIV-positive. And black.

    Read More
  143. @(((Owen)))
    OMG what a fat slob. How can a man let himself go like that? When your only skill in like is to inherit family influence, you're supposed to be a svelte and strong man of leisure. Please the public with how well you are living that station so far above your talents that fate has handed you.

    How can a man let himself go like that?

    A steady diet of cognitive dissonance. He’s been mainlining cortisol for awhile now.

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  144. @Anatoly Karlin

    … At one point, Dr. Murray explained how, though he never warmed to Donald Trump, the 2016 election did lead him to adopt a restrictionist position on low-skilled immigration. Dr. Kristol replied that he’d “actually sort of gone the opposite way on immigration.” …
     
    When the heat goes up people start flocking to their own.

    Kristol’s more like a chicken with his head cut off presently.

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  145. @Yan Shen

    No matter how fat and lazy and ugly a redneck, he’ll fit in our society a thousand times better than a hard working member of a different race. This in the end is what it comes down to.
     
    I actually disagree with this and in fact would argue that it can be proven to be empirically false. Race and ethnicity matter yes, but as I've argued that the fallacy of some on the alternative right is that these are somehow the only dimensions of tribal affiliation. I would argue that in fact in today's increasingly global and interconnected society, intelligence has also become increasingly more relevant as well. Think of social compatibility as a multi-variable function where race and ethnicity may in fact be the two most important factors but certainly other salient attributes matter as well.

    That being said, I've stated that I don't really have any specific policy ideas in mind about how we as a nation or any nation in particular would adopt a more cognitive elitist point of view, although I've brought up China's approach towards eugenics as something admirable.

    In general, sentiments like the one espoused above represent a fundamental fallacy that I believe is worth pointing out.

    In my experience the average Anglo-Celt redneck grasps concepts like the common law and property all the way down to his bones, while even intelligent Asians and Middle Easterners are baffled by the notion that Law exists apart from the State.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    Meanwhile intelligent Westerners don't believe it exists at all.
    , @Jack D
    Humans aren't like salmon who are born programmed to have certain behaviors. Almost everything we do and believe is learned as part of our culture and culture can change over time.

    See my explanation of "clipping coupons" - at one time an American would have looked at you like you had three heads if you told him that collecting interest on a bond was a three way transaction involving you, the bond issuer and the Federal government. EVERYONE knew that a bond was a private transaction having nothing to do with the government, especially not the Federal government.

    The Federal government had as much to do with your private bond as it had to do with educating the kids at your local schoolhouse - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. We had signed a Constitution in 1789 that did not give any role to the central government over such matters. We had tried being ruled by a distant ruler in London and it sucked, so the new plan was to push government down to the most local level that was practical (you needed a central Army in wartime, but other than that, very little). If you didn't like the school curriculum, you wouldn't have to petition the ruler in some distant capital, you'd talk to your neighbor who was on the school board. But to today's youth you might as well be speaking of ancient Rome. The world that you were born into seems like the way it has always been.

    , @Daniel Chieh
    Depends on how you wish to see it, really.

    I would say that a number of Continental Europeans would be bewildered too by the strict definition of common law. Common law was a very Anglo invention, I'd say, and wasn't widely employed anywhere else even in Europe.

    Everywhere that practiced agriculture understood property, of course. The more independent the farm was, the more likely they would understand property as being distinct from any communal help.

    Asia did have its own and significant form of canon, though, in the form of societal ties, traditions and basically, Confucianism. The notions of previous precedent being established wasn't alien, and the study of history was pretty extensive.
  146. @The Anti-Gnostic
    In my experience the average Anglo-Celt redneck grasps concepts like the common law and property all the way down to his bones, while even intelligent Asians and Middle Easterners are baffled by the notion that Law exists apart from the State.

    Meanwhile intelligent Westerners don’t believe it exists at all.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    That seems to be a real flashpoint for cultures: elite values and popular values diverging, elites becoming decadent and materialistic, people putting into practice what their elite preach to them, usually with disastrous results (e.g., Jodie Foster may be a great single mom but everybody else, don't try this at home).
  147. You never could beat me Yan Shen”

    What if I replaced your brain with the brain of a genius? Wouldn’t you be much better off?

    ~Yan Shen

    Having stated the above, I’ve also at times advocated both here and elsewhere a philosophy which I’ve referred to as cognitive elitism, the simple idea that cognitive capital matters tremendously, especially in an ever increasingly global and competitive society. I once stated that smart people in general probably feel more in common with other smart people than they do with the bottom halves of their respective ethnic bell curves. Race and ethnicity matter and perhaps matter the most, but certainly there are other dimensions along which tribal affiliations splinter, intelligence and ideology being a couple of obvious examples.

    I am sympathetic to “cognitive elitism,” but the term doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. “Cognitively elite” populations like the Japanese, Chinese, Israelis, etc., don’t allow immigration of other “cognitively elite” populations.

    If we observe the behavior of “cognitively elite” populations like the Chinese, Japanese, and Israelis, what we see is that they only allow “cognitively elite” immigration from populations that are physically and culturally similar to their own. For Japanese, it is overwhelmingly their northeast Asian neighbors. For Israel, it is their fellow Jews.

    China with its lack of political correctness and with a cognitive elitist worldview has approached topics such as intelligence and eugenics with much more boldness than perhaps we have here in the United States. Potentially uplifting your population through the science of modern genetics should be something worthwhile that a country should strive for, as opposed to being something perverse that we as a nation should frown upon. Interestingly enough, the alternative right has by and large focused on the racial and ethnic dimensions of the discussion more so than the cognitive dimension. I’ve even been accused somewhat negatively of being a eugenicist by others here!

    How is it particularly interesting? Have the Chinese prioritized brains over ethnicity and started importing non-east-Asian “cognitive elites”? Have the Israelis started importing non-Jewish “cognitive elites” (there are certainly enough in China for them to totally up their tech game)? Have the Japanese started importing non-east-Asian “cognitive elites”?

    I suppose that it is open borders mania – including the mania for “cognitive elite” immigrants – that has helped retard the American fields of intelligence and eugenics, in much the same way that it has helped retard robotics in agriculture.

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren’t replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations?

    What if we replaced our brains with brains donated from geniuses? Wouldn’t we much better off?

    I propose an alternative strategy. Israel has managed to survive springing into existence in 1948 in completely hostile territory. I suppose there is no better example of national survival. In that light, I think modeling our immigration policies on theirs is the way forward.

    Since national survival precedes all other concerns, I think this makes for sound strategy. It would also be closer to the “cognitive elite’s” actual behavior, than Yan Shen’s take on “cognitive elitism” is.

    P.S., Yan Shen, welcome back old boy. It’s been a while.

    ***

    The thing to remember with Yan Shen & company is that the war’s going well for them. All of this is happening in our territories. Theirs are not in play, nor do they seem likely to be any time soon.

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    • Replies: @Forbes

    The thing to remember with Yan Shen & company is that the war’s going well for them. All of this is happening in our territories. Theirs are not in play, nor do they seem likely to be any time soon.
     
    This.
    , @Yan Shen

    I am sympathetic to “cognitive elitism,” but the term doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. “Cognitively elite” populations like the Japanese, Chinese, Israelis, etc., don’t allow immigration of other “cognitively elite” populations.
     
    Not sure if that's necessarily true with respect to the Sinosphere. For instance in Singapore...

    In Singapore, the term immigrant workers is separated into foreign workers and foreign talents. Foreign talent refers to foreigners with professional qualifications or acceptable degrees working at the higher end of Singapore's economy. They come from India, Australia, the Philippines, People's Republic of China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, Republic of Korea, Malaysia, Europe, New Zealand and the United States.
     
    And in Hong Kong...

    This is a quota-based program that seeks to attract highly skilled persons to settle in Hong Kong. An applicant does not need to obtain a job offer in advance before entering into Hong Kong on a "skilled immigrants" transfer. Two sets of points system are used to evaluate applicants. These are the Achievement Based Points Test[1] and the General Points Test.[2]
     
    Now that seems like Confucian meritocracy to me, rather than the blatant ethnic championing that you seem to impute to these places.

    Note that ethnic homogeneity of the majority by and large can be preserved under a cognitive elitist worldview by simply by and large getting rid of low skilled immigration and setting a quota for high skilled labor. That's it. That's all I've advocated for. Seems ridiculous to accuse me of pushing for the importation of Chinese at the expense of the native white American majority in this country, as some have done, when I've explicitly stated that I believe in "citizenism" as espoused by Steve Sailer and am in favor of limiting even legal immigration to the United States.

    The only point I'm making is that in today's ever increasingly global and cosmopolitan society, don't be surprised by the fact that intelligence and ideology also become increasingly more salient dimensions of tribal affiliation. The fundamental fallacy of the white nationalist movement is encapsulated by the prior assertion in this thread that no matter how lazy or ugly a redneck was, he or she would be a much better fit in American society than someone of high intelligence from a different ethnic group. I would argue that this statement simply isn't true and in fact can be shown to be empirically false, in the same sense that one can show empirically that the earth revolves around the sun and not vice versa.

    In its stead I offer a contrasting thesis. For lack of a better name, let's call it the fundamental theorem of cognitive elitism. By and large cognitive elites identify more closely with each other than with the bottom halves of the cognitive distributions of their respective ethnic groups! I think understanding this point may lead to a more nuanced view of the modern global political climate that ultimately might in fact lead to greater national prosperity.

    , @Yan Shen

    The thing to remember with Yan Shen & company is that the war’s going well for them. All of this is happening in our territories. Theirs are not in play, nor do they seem likely to be any time soon.
     
    As I've stated in another thread, as a US citizen my land is the land of the United States of America and my people are the other citizens of this country! Of course, instead of accepting an olive branch and gaining an ally in the battle against the current PC insanity, some people prefer to persist in their narrow minded thinking and further hurt the very cause they supposedly claim to fight for...
  148. @Anatoly Karlin

    … At one point, Dr. Murray explained how, though he never warmed to Donald Trump, the 2016 election did lead him to adopt a restrictionist position on low-skilled immigration. Dr. Kristol replied that he’d “actually sort of gone the opposite way on immigration.” …
     
    When the heat goes up people start flocking to their own.

    Interesting comment.

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  149. @carol
    There is something weird going on with young workers. There is this segment that doesn't want to learn the manly trades, but won't tolerate the low wages of the clerical and retail work that's left to them. They are undependable.

    And then there's ag work. That there is hard work.

    So the solution is to flood the country with alien ethnic groups whose children will grow up to be far more toxic to society than spoiled middle class white kids could ever be?

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  150. @Yan Shen
    Interesting comment. Now, I'm fairly sympathetic to the views of the alternative right on a number of issues. For instance, I think that countries should exist first and foremost for the well-being of their own citizens, a viewpoint which Steve here has referred to as "citizenism". I think that in general multiculturalism has a host of potential drawbacks and that there's certainly empirical evidence suggesting that more homogeneous countries such as Japan fare better by a variety of objective metrics. In particular, it seems like heterogeneity can certainly be a recipe for racial and ethnic tensions and the likes. And without any specific policy proscriptions in mind, at a high level I'm fundamentally in favor of restricting not just illegal immigration but also legal immigration as well for the United States.

    Having stated the above, I've also at times advocated both here and elsewhere a philosophy which I've referred to as cognitive elitism, the simple idea that cognitive capital matters tremendously, especially in an ever increasingly global and competitive society. I once stated that smart people in general probably feel more in common with other smart people than they do with the bottom halves of their respective ethnic bell curves. Race and ethnicity matter and perhaps matter the most, but certainly there are other dimensions along which tribal affiliations splinter, intelligence and ideology being a couple of obvious examples.

    I would argue that for instance China with its lack of political correctness and with a cognitive elitist worldview has approached topics such as intelligence and eugenics with much more boldness than perhaps we have here in the United States. Potentially uplifting your population through the science of modern genetics should be something worthwhile that a country should strive for, as opposed to being something perverse that we as a nation should frown upon. Interestingly enough, the alternative right has by and large focused on the racial and ethnic dimensions of the discussion more so than the cognitive dimension. I've even been accused somewhat negatively of being a eugenicist by others here!

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren't replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations? Hard to argue in the abstract that the country as a whole wouldn't be better off, leaving aside both the potential moral argument against such a policy and the obvious impracticality of putting such an idea to fruition. I assume Bill Kristol's comments were made in semi-jest, but I think in general adopting an orientation more aligned with cognitive elitism may not be a bad way of trying to understand the nuances of modern 21st century global society.

    If that were true, intelligent blacks wouldn’t be overwhelmingly tribal in their ideology.

    Then again, a black in the 90th IQ percentile for their ethnic group is barely more intelligent than the average white.

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  151. There are not many rice farmers and street sweepers left in East Asia. This isn’t the 1950′s.

    This may be the visuo-spatial excess talking. There are many millions of poor, backward types in east Asia, and that is who he was referring to.

    Hardly elitism. The center of America resents Mississippi for fighting constantly and relentlessly to take away our liquor, our birth control, our quality art and music, our political dissent, and our marijuana. For importing oceans of cheap slave labor and working in Congress to send our jobs overseas. For never-ending disloyalty to our common purposes.*

    (((Owen))), you ignorant slut. The South has been the main bulwark against the left since “reconstruction.” You should be on your knees thanking Dixie.

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  152. @Opinionator
    Can't we just prefer them because they are our people, our family? End of argument?

    Scots-Irish ain’t my people.

    I need you to speak for yourself.

    I concede that I do share common foes with them for now.

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    • Replies: @Autochthon
    We tried to go our own way in 1861, but even then the federal government just couldn't get enough of imposing diversity upon people wanting to mind their own business.

    I'm glad we can be friends now, anyhow; we are certainly the least of each other's problems in The Current Year.
  153. @EriK
    I assumed he meant clipping bond coupons.

    I assumed he meant clipping bond coupons.

    Ha ha. Nicely done.

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  154. The question I could never get Yan Shen to answer: how do we know you aren’t actually pursuing yellow racial nationalism? How would we distinguish between yellow racial nationalism, and “cognitive elitism”?

    Sure, yellow racial nationalist going full-tilt would advocate completely open borders for western countries, vis-a-vis yellow immigration. But if he thought that a hopeless goal, he might settle for “cognitive elitism,” in the hopes that a yellow elite could be imported into the west, with the ultimate goal of completely open borders for western countries, vis-a-vis yellow immigration.

    Or maybe he’s just representing the interests of what he sees as his own class: smart east Asians. In this scenario, his “cognitive elitism” (smart people from everywhere, not just east Asia) would be cribbing from Jews, and their penchant for dressing up their own interests as universal interests.

    Reciprocity (they give us something, in return for giving them something) would seem to be the solution, but I’ve never seen Yan Shen suggest anything like that. More important, nothing like that is in the cards.

    Furthermore, the brain drain inherent in his misnamed “cognitive elitism” sows the seeds of destruction; we drain these countries of their cognitive capital, they turn into dystopias, they send huge waves of “refugees” to our shores demanding entry because we stripped them of their cognitive elite, and we “owe” them.

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    • Replies: @Forbes
    I would assume he is pursuing yellow racial nationalism. Other than substituting the euphemism 'cognitive elitism' there is no apparent difference.
    , @Yan Shen
    Well let's clear up some of the fundamental misunderstandings of my position here. I've already stated multiple times that I'm in favor of Sailerian "citizenism" and in favor of limiting legal immigration. With respect to things such as American universities accepting more foreign undergraduates because they pay higher tuition as international students, my position has always been that we should prioritize the educational needs of our own population ahead of those of the citizens of other nations.

    I'm not even pushing for additional East Asian immigration, as my detractors frequently accuse me of doing. I've stated before that as China increasingly develops, I assume that the number of Chinese immigrants to this country will consequently decline as well. For instance, very few Japanese come over these days to the US, although that may in part be due to the greater insularity of the Japanese as compared to say the Chinese. The longer term goal for Asia, Europe, and Africa should be that they be largely homogeneous continents, but I've advocated that given today's global economy, adopting Singaporean style cognitive elitism may also not be a bad idea as far as a limited immigration policy goes for a given country.

    Of course the Americas, given their unique histories, are obviously going to be somewhat multicultural, but on this issue I've largely sided with the alternative right vis-a-vis America having the right to preserve its historically European ethnic heritage. So really I'm not explicitly pushing for more of any particular ethnic group. And honestly, given the East Asian penchant for skewing towards STEM and away from politics, business, and culture, I seriously doubt that even increased East Asian numbers in this country would hijack the contours of intellectual discourse and public policy in the same way that Jewish American intellectuals may have been able to in recent decades. If anything it might actually serve to combat the insanity that is contemporary PC.

    Cognitive elitism has always been more of an observation of underlying reality rather than any specific set of policy prescriptions. It was meant to contradict the obvious empirical falsity of what I had earlier dubbed the fundamental theorem of white nationalism. In its stead, I attempted to offer a more nuanced approach to grappling with the complexities of globalization and modernity.

  155. @Percy Gryce
    Was this the John Adams quote that Kristol referred to? If so, he completely (and obviously) misconstrued it:

    I must study Politicks and War that my sons may have liberty to study Mathematicks and Philosophy. My sons ought to study Mathematicks and Philosophy, Geography, natural History, Naval Architecture, navigation, Commerce and Agriculture, in order to give their Children a right to study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary, Tapestry and Porcelaine.
     
    --Letter from John Adams to Abigail Adams, post 12 May 1780

    And those who study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary, Tapestry and Porcelaine will be conquered by foreigners who study Politicks and War.

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  156. @carol
    There is something weird going on with young workers. There is this segment that doesn't want to learn the manly trades, but won't tolerate the low wages of the clerical and retail work that's left to them. They are undependable.

    And then there's ag work. That there is hard work.

    And don’t for the real hard work done in the oil and gas fields in this country. No days off for snow, rain, heat etc. And it’s year round, 12 hr shifts when drilling or fracking. The only time they don’t work is when there is too much lightning (those big metal machines tend to attract it). The undependable are not the avg. kid that doesn’t care to go to college, it the ones that do, yet really aren’t qualified for it, and do just enough to stay in with the help of parents money. Then when they get out, think they deserve some 8 hr. high paid job at a big desk right out of the gate.

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  157. https://fabiusmaximus.com/2016/04/06/kristal-cohen-study-rising-wage-inequality-95494/ It was highly unionized industries — construction, manufacturing, and transportation — that saw a large decline in labor’s share of income. By contrast, in the lightly unionized industries of trade, finance, and services, workers’ share stayed relatively constant or even increased. So, what we have is a large decrease in labor’s share of income and a significant increase in capitalists’ share in industries where unionization declined, and hardly any change in industries where unions never had much of a presence. This suggests that waning unionization, which led to the erosion of rank-and file workers’ bargaining power, was the main force behind the decline in labor’s share of national income.

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  158. @Yan Shen
    You know I've often thought to myself, "Man how great would it be if we woke up tomorrow and a Lee Kuan Yew style benevolent dictator ran the United States of America instead of the current crop of clueless politicians in our dysfunctional political system?"

    Imagine if we had a man who understood the fundamental realities of nature and who knew how to apply those principles towards governing a multiracial society? Then America might be on top for the next 200 years instead of quite possibly devolving into the next Brazil.

    I would argue that this is in fact why the alternative right should embrace East Asians as allies in the fight against the current PC insanity. If ever the currents of multiculturalism are to be reversed in the modern day West, I suspect that the East Asian example will have much to do with dispelling the prevailing leftist dogmas here...

    Eh, most “East Asians” in the US are more than happy to ally with the left.

    The continued existence of Mari Matsuda inherently shows the folly of allowing any Japanese into the US.

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  159. @Hunsdon
    Do you want peasants with pitchforks?

    Because this is how you get peasants with pitchforks.

    Naaah. Peasants are way too drugged up to take up pitchforks. In America today, opium is the opium of the masses. Read up on Boxer Rebellion. And the Chinese weren’t even facing population replacement on top of it.

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  160. @(((Owen)))

    Mexico (unlike Ireland, Italy, Germany, Russia, etc) is not racially European

     

    The average Mexican born today is already more white than the average baby born on French, German, or Swedish territory in this generation.

    If you consider mestizos to be whiter than Arabs.

    I don’t really.

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  161. @Cagey Beast
    David Frum has lost his mind over Putin, Trump, Le Pen and Brexit. He, Anne Applebaum and Michael McFaul are convinced any voices trying to talk sense to them are cyber phantasms sent by Putin to destroy the West. I'm so sick of the lot of them.

    David Frum has lost his mind over Putin, Trump, Le Pen and Brexit.

    A year ago, I was a big fan of David Frum. I bought and read one of his books, he was sort of a hero of mine.

    Frum’s opposition to Trump is so intense and so extreme, that I’ve regularly second guessed myself and thought that maybe Trump really is this great danger and I missed it. In hindsight, I think Frum just lost his mind, or at least lost his cool and his reasonable nature over Trump and Brexit and Le Pen. Many of the things he is saying are just so completely unreasonable.

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    • Replies: @Flip
    I don't really know why so many Jews are so hostile to Trump, other than they are afraid of white racial consciousness being awakened. I have a friend who is Jewish and her mother is afraid that Jews are going to be deported to concentration camps any day now.
  162. @slumber_j

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution?
     
    Deported them to where, exactly?

    How about instead considering a more practically workable thought experiment that entails the deportation--or even better, non-admission--of the lamest people who are here or want to be here illegally? For starters.

    Deported them to where, exactly?

    The Mexicans have deported theirs to the United States. They seem quite happy with the arrangement.

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  163. @Desiderius

    How can a man let himself go like that?
     
    A steady diet of cognitive dissonance. He's been mainlining cortisol for awhile now.

    Professional bodybuilders take cortisol.

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  164. Bill, since Juan and Carlos, just arrived from Mexico, “really want to work hard”, perhaps they could take some of the Salesforce developer jobs I get in my Inbox each day.

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  165. @Opinionator
    That's a very interesting observation. It is indeed difficult to infer he is referring to blue collar workers from the description he gives. But I doubt he is deliberately referring to jews. It is possible he is in effect speaking of everyone, of all classes even, and the coupon clipping etc serves as a kind of a metaphor meant to apply to all non-immigrant Americans. (Are you sure btw that it is a reference to bonds and not to discounts btw?) Alternatively, it would in character with his solipsism to assume that coupon clipping etc. is the typical American experience. See past Acela, NYC anecdotes.

    100% yes. “Clipping coupons” was (at one time) a metaphor for living off of investment income.

    As Crawfordmuir explained, nowadays everything is electronic and traceable (and therefore taxable) by the government, because we live in the Land of the Free, so bearer bonds may no longer be issued and apparently the words “clipping coupons” are associated in the mind of the current generation with saving 75 cents on 3 boxes of Tide.

    But in the old fascist America a bearer bond was like cash – if you had the piece of paper, then it was yours and your ownership was not registered with the IRS or anyone else. ( Can you imagine that wealth could be allowed to exist independent of government? You can see immediately what a cesspit of cowboy fascism the old America was. ) How would the trustee know who give the interest to on such a bond? Attached to every bond there was a sheet of little coupons that you would clip and present to the trustee on the interest payment dates and whoever presented the coupon would get the interest payment:

    http://www.coxrail.com/images/bond&coups.jpg

    http://www.celebrateboston.com/image/mbta/bond-coupon-bery.jpg

    But that was the old America, before 1986. I might as well tell you about minstrel shows and how we used to go slave hunting for fun.

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  166. @Desiderius
    Meanwhile intelligent Westerners don't believe it exists at all.

    That seems to be a real flashpoint for cultures: elite values and popular values diverging, elites becoming decadent and materialistic, people putting into practice what their elite preach to them, usually with disastrous results (e.g., Jodie Foster may be a great single mom but everybody else, don’t try this at home).

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  167. @Opinionator
    We'd support a patriot who loved the American people and put them first--even if he or she were short and alien looking.

    “We’d support a patriot who loved the American people and put them first–even if he or she were short and alien looking.”

    Or glowering and weirdly orange.

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  168. @someguy
    There is something wrong with our entire society, not just young people. Boomers would sell out their grand children in favor of illegals for a 1% increase in their 401k.

    The fact that Kristol has any platform at all tells you all you need to know about America. Israel gets 10 million a day in aid from America and is essentially a welfare parasite state, and this is how neocons pay back White Americans?

    ” . . . Israel . . . ‘neocons’ . . .”

    Frum, Kristol et al are launched on a trajectory that cannot be reversed now. Chrysostomous suggests Kristol retire, but many of us see his presence as quite useful. In any case, it is inevitable: Kristol or ‘one’ just like him.

    “The line it is drawn, the curse it is cast.”

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  169. @The Anti-Gnostic
    In my experience the average Anglo-Celt redneck grasps concepts like the common law and property all the way down to his bones, while even intelligent Asians and Middle Easterners are baffled by the notion that Law exists apart from the State.

    Humans aren’t like salmon who are born programmed to have certain behaviors. Almost everything we do and believe is learned as part of our culture and culture can change over time.

    See my explanation of “clipping coupons” – at one time an American would have looked at you like you had three heads if you told him that collecting interest on a bond was a three way transaction involving you, the bond issuer and the Federal government. EVERYONE knew that a bond was a private transaction having nothing to do with the government, especially not the Federal government.

    The Federal government had as much to do with your private bond as it had to do with educating the kids at your local schoolhouse – ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. We had signed a Constitution in 1789 that did not give any role to the central government over such matters. We had tried being ruled by a distant ruler in London and it sucked, so the new plan was to push government down to the most local level that was practical (you needed a central Army in wartime, but other than that, very little). If you didn’t like the school curriculum, you wouldn’t have to petition the ruler in some distant capital, you’d talk to your neighbor who was on the school board. But to today’s youth you might as well be speaking of ancient Rome. The world that you were born into seems like the way it has always been.

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  170. @Waylon 347
    Someone tell this Kristol fool that people clipping coupons are the exact opposite of spoiled . On second thought don't anyone waste 5 seconds of their life . .

    Clipping coupons is a great metaphor to find out more about people’s backgrounds. FWIW although I am aware of the bond interpretation, my first instinct is to think of the newspaper supermarket kind.

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  171. @(((Owen)))

    Mexico (unlike Ireland, Italy, Germany, Russia, etc) is not racially European

     

    The average Mexican born today is already more white than the average baby born on French, German, or Swedish territory in this generation.

    The average Mexican born today is already more white than the average baby born on French, German, or Swedish territory in this generation.

    Dunno. Levels of Amerind ancestry in Mexico are extremely high. Of course, elites tend to have significantly more European ancestry:

    A 2006 study conducted by Mexico’s National Institute of Genomic Medicine (INMEGEN), which genotyped 104 samples, reported that mestizo Mexicans are 58.96% European, 35.05% “Asian” (primarily Amerindian), and 5.03% Other.[11]
    According to a 2009 report by the Mexican Genome Project, which sampled 300 mestizos from six Mexican states, the gene pool of the Mexican mestizo population was calculated to be 55.2% percent indigenous, 41.8% European, 1.0% African, and 1.2% Asian.[12]
    A 2014 autosomal DNA study, which analysed data from 1622 samples from all of the Mexican regions, found that Native American ancestry is highest in the centre/south of the country with the north showing the highest proportion of European Ancestry. African ancestry is generally low across Mexico except for a few coastal regions. In conclusion, Native American ancestry accounts for 56% of the heritage of the population, followed by the European (37%) and the African (5%).[13]
    Additional studies suggests a tendency relating a higher European admixture with a higher socioeconomic status and a higher Amerindian ancestry with a lower socioeconomic status: a study made exclusively on low income Mestizos residing in Mexico City found the mean admixture to be 0.590, 0.348, and 0.062 for Amerindian, European and African respectively whereas the European admixture increased to an average of around 70% on mestizos belonging to a higher socioeconomical level.[14] In 2011, an autosomal dna study was conducted in Mexico city, with 1,310 samples, showing the average proportion of Native American, European, and African ancestry for the population to be 64%, 32%, and 4% respectively. Additional autosomal dna studies conducted on people from Mexico city show a predominate Native American background, with Native American ancestry ranging from 61-69% in 5 different studies. The number of people sampled in these studies ranged from 66 to 984 people.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mestizos_in_Mexico

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  172. @carol
    There is something weird going on with young workers. There is this segment that doesn't want to learn the manly trades, but won't tolerate the low wages of the clerical and retail work that's left to them. They are undependable.

    And then there's ag work. That there is hard work.

    Forgive my language, but this is retarded.

    The free market, if it was let flourish, would take care of this. Can’t get people to do work? Then improve the conditions, raise the wages, etc., until people are willing to do it.

    That is the FREE MARKET. Libertardarians and establishment conservatives seem to think it only applies when it guts people’s wages and govt benefits.

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  173. @(((Owen)))

    Mexico (unlike Ireland, Italy, Germany, Russia, etc) is not racially European

     

    The average Mexican born today is already more white than the average baby born on French, German, or Swedish territory in this generation.

    Since I hate waiting:

    The average Mexican born today is already more white than the average baby born on French, German, or Swedish territory in this generation.

    Dunno. Levels of Amerind ancestry in Mexico are extremely high. Of course, elites tend to have significantly more European ancestry:

    A 2006 study conducted by Mexico’s National Institute of Genomic Medicine (INMEGEN), which genotyped 104 samples, reported that mestizo Mexicans are 58.96% European, 35.05% “Asian” (primarily Amerindian), and 5.03% Other.[11]
    According to a 2009 report by the Mexican Genome Project, which sampled 300 mestizos from six Mexican states, the gene pool of the Mexican mestizo population was calculated to be 55.2% percent indigenous, 41.8% European, 1.0% African, and 1.2% Asian.[12]
    A 2014 autosomal DNA study, which analysed data from 1622 samples from all of the Mexican regions, found that Native American ancestry is highest in the centre/south of the country with the north showing the highest proportion of European Ancestry. African ancestry is generally low across Mexico except for a few coastal regions. In conclusion, Native American ancestry accounts for 56% of the heritage of the population, followed by the European (37%) and the African (5%).[13]

    Additional studies suggests a tendency relating a higher European admixture with a higher socioeconomic status and a higher Amerindian ancestry with a lower socioeconomic status: a study made exclusively on low income Mestizos residing in Mexico City found the mean admixture to be 0.590, 0.348, and 0.062 for Amerindian, European and African respectively whereas the European admixture increased to an average of around 70% on mestizos belonging to a higher socioeconomical level.[14] In 2011, an autosomal dna study was conducted in Mexico city, with 1,310 samples, showing the average proportion of Native American, European, and African ancestry for the population to be 64%, 32%, and 4% respectively. Additional autosomal dna studies conducted on people from Mexico city show a predominate Native American background, with Native American ancestry ranging from 61-69% in 5 different studies. The number of people sampled in these studies ranged from 66 to 984 people.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mestizos_in_Mexico

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    • Replies: @Jack Highlands
    I doubt (((Owen))) is suggesting that the mestizo component of the Mexico genome has changed. Rather, the average baby born on French, German, or Swedish territory in this generation is named Mohammed.
  174. @Twinkie
    Shared ancestry is great. Share religion is great too. High IQ is wonderful. All those are important traits. But what *I* want for our country's elites is a group of people who care about their fellow citizens who happen to be their cognitive- and socio-economic inferiors, in other words an elite that possesses noblesse oblige. That, I value more than shared ancestry, shared religion, and high IQ in our leadership class.

    Whether high IQ or low IQ, bringing in a large number of foreigners (ones who don't assimilate as well as previous cohorts of immigrants) to replace the native workforce is completely inimical to that notion of that elite noblesse oblige. That's feudal lords replacing one set of peasants with a more docile set (which, in the end, is actually harmful for the lords as well).

    I want to see an elite class that, say in times of war, sends its sons to die first with pistols in hand, leading their more ordinary countrymen. After all, what is leadership for, if not to wield it to better one's country and all of its citizens? Otherwise it's just parasitic banditry.

    And I write this as a former immigrant and a naturalized American.

    Can’t use the “Agree” button, so, well stated. And I agree.

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  175. @Olorin
    Bill Kristol could do some digging into how his Tribesmen, the Sacklers, systematically destroyed the white working class with opiates over the course of half a century.

    The Sacklers' fortunes could be nationalized as reparations for all the damage they've done.

    Their "family fortune" only shows as about $14 billion...but I'll bet one could get a few dollars auctioning off all their museums, educational departments, artworks, estates, etc., bought with their business model of converting family doctors to pushers.

    Make that a capital crime and a lot of problems would disappear overnight. For free. Then use the money to mop up the old problems.

    Put me in charge, and I'll find people who can do a much cheaper job than the highly remunerated folks here:

    http://sackler.tufts.edu/Faculty-and-Research/Sackler-Program-Faculty

    https://en-med.tau.ac.il/

    http://www.med.nyu.edu/sackler/

    I'd especially like to be in charge of telling the Israeli school who they can and cannot hire.

    Your application to join the SS has been received, but we’ll have to perform background checks on you to confirm your pure Aryan ancestry.

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  176. @Twinkie

    There is no premium of Asian intelligence over White American intelligence.
     
    Although that might be true in general, they complement - East Asians with higher visuo-spatial/quantitative and Northwestern Europeans with verbal.

    Those who come here are not typical of their homelands. We don’t get the rice farmers and street sweepers.
     
    There are not many rice farmers and street sweepers left in East Asia. This isn't the 1950's.

    About five years ago, I read that 74% of China’s work force are in agriculture. That would be about a billion farmers?

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  177. @Ed
    If he thinks the white working class should be replaced what does he want done with blacks, death squads?

    To be fair, Kristol doesn’t call for anyone in the working class to be “replaced”, except as an economic vanguard. So, no, he’s not implying any need for death squads. And he makes no exceptions for his own ethny from those that have become fat and lazy, though he doesn’t list it, either (assuming you don’t count Ashkenazi among “Russians”).

    Nor does he exclude Negros from the working class that needs this injection of vigor, so the headline, “Bill Kristol and Charles Murray Debate Replacing Unsatisfactory White Working Class with Immigrants” has more than one flaw.

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  178. @(((Owen)))

    BTW, did the capitalization of all nouns come to English from German? And when did English lose that?
     
    Noah Webster published his first reader in 1783. Spelling and grammar books followed in the next three years. Before that, spelling was chaos and English shared with the other north Europe languages a fetish for marking all nouns with majuscules.

    Webster became founding editor of the nation's most influential newspaper—the American Minerva—in 1793 with Alex Hamilton's support. Webster continued publishing revised editions of his student readers and gradually developed the American style and standardized spellings. Those readers made Webster a millionaire and sold well over 100 million copies in the 1800s. By the time of Webster's first dictionary in 1806, the style and written language of the founders a generation before was an anachronism in the young nation.

    Hawthorne (b. 1804), Emerson (b. 1803), Thoreau (b. 1817), and Twain (b. 1835) wrote all their lives very much like Americans do today. The style of writing had been fixed once and for all by Webster and his times.

    Thanks, that’s interesting. I hadn’t realized Webster had personally influenced the language so much.

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  179. @syonredux
    Since I hate waiting:

    The average Mexican born today is already more white than the average baby born on French, German, or Swedish territory in this generation.
     
    Dunno. Levels of Amerind ancestry in Mexico are extremely high. Of course, elites tend to have significantly more European ancestry:

    A 2006 study conducted by Mexico’s National Institute of Genomic Medicine (INMEGEN), which genotyped 104 samples, reported that mestizo Mexicans are 58.96% European, 35.05% “Asian” (primarily Amerindian), and 5.03% Other.[11]
    According to a 2009 report by the Mexican Genome Project, which sampled 300 mestizos from six Mexican states, the gene pool of the Mexican mestizo population was calculated to be 55.2% percent indigenous, 41.8% European, 1.0% African, and 1.2% Asian.[12]
    A 2014 autosomal DNA study, which analysed data from 1622 samples from all of the Mexican regions, found that Native American ancestry is highest in the centre/south of the country with the north showing the highest proportion of European Ancestry. African ancestry is generally low across Mexico except for a few coastal regions. In conclusion, Native American ancestry accounts for 56% of the heritage of the population, followed by the European (37%) and the African (5%).[13]


    Additional studies suggests a tendency relating a higher European admixture with a higher socioeconomic status and a higher Amerindian ancestry with a lower socioeconomic status: a study made exclusively on low income Mestizos residing in Mexico City found the mean admixture to be 0.590, 0.348, and 0.062 for Amerindian, European and African respectively whereas the European admixture increased to an average of around 70% on mestizos belonging to a higher socioeconomical level.[14] In 2011, an autosomal dna study was conducted in Mexico city, with 1,310 samples, showing the average proportion of Native American, European, and African ancestry for the population to be 64%, 32%, and 4% respectively. Additional autosomal dna studies conducted on people from Mexico city show a predominate Native American background, with Native American ancestry ranging from 61-69% in 5 different studies. The number of people sampled in these studies ranged from 66 to 984 people.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mestizos_in_Mexico

    I doubt (((Owen))) is suggesting that the mestizo component of the Mexico genome has changed. Rather, the average baby born on French, German, or Swedish territory in this generation is named Mohammed.

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  180. @Alec Leamas
    I don't suppose Kristol perceives that many of us view him as the decadent, lazy and spoiled scion whose bed was feathered by his forbears?

    How obtuse and sheltered can this guy possibly be?

    Watching him sprawled on a chair with a big beer belly lamenting his “tiny, pathetic future” while he’s got an untouchable legacy sinecure and criticizing the white working class as lazy and decadent and in need of replacement is just too much to believe.

    I’m wondering if Bill Kristol is shifting into performance art. I call this one “Elitist in Repose.”

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    • Replies: @Forbes

    Watching him sprawled on a chair with a big beer belly ...
     
    I've seen him a functions in NYC, and he has a particularly unhealthy physique--all the signs of a heart attack waiting to happen. I've often thought that a healthy body is necessary for a healthy mind, i.e. self-awareness is a vital personal characteristic.
  181. @Alec Leamas
    Regression to the mean is a big problem with this view. The 140 IQ Pakistani Brain Surgeon is eminently capable of blessing his new country with a 100 IQ layabout.

    The premium of Asian intelligence over white American intelligence is negligible and all but disappears with some preference for northern European whites. (and, of course, the reported numbers rely upon the honesty of shame cultures including China).

    I wouldn't say that immigration with a eugenic aim isn't worthwhile, but that you would really need to drill down and think about how you would make a lasting beneficial impact balanced against societal cohesion.

    I wouldn’t say that immigration with a eugenic aim isn’t worthwhile….

    Any eugenic improvement can be done using our own gene pool.

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    • Agree: Broski, syonredux
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Any eugenic improvement can be done using our own gene pool.
     
    I just learned that your namesake supported Mr Wilson's mad war plans, except for the newfangled idea of drafting blacks along with whites, which he strenuously opposed. How eugenic of him, to send white boys abroad to die, while black slackers stay home and breed!

    Eventually a compromise was reached, where blacks were focibly inducted along with whites, but given no weapon deadlier than a soup ladle.
  182. @Yan Shen
    Interesting comment. Now, I'm fairly sympathetic to the views of the alternative right on a number of issues. For instance, I think that countries should exist first and foremost for the well-being of their own citizens, a viewpoint which Steve here has referred to as "citizenism". I think that in general multiculturalism has a host of potential drawbacks and that there's certainly empirical evidence suggesting that more homogeneous countries such as Japan fare better by a variety of objective metrics. In particular, it seems like heterogeneity can certainly be a recipe for racial and ethnic tensions and the likes. And without any specific policy proscriptions in mind, at a high level I'm fundamentally in favor of restricting not just illegal immigration but also legal immigration as well for the United States.

    Having stated the above, I've also at times advocated both here and elsewhere a philosophy which I've referred to as cognitive elitism, the simple idea that cognitive capital matters tremendously, especially in an ever increasingly global and competitive society. I once stated that smart people in general probably feel more in common with other smart people than they do with the bottom halves of their respective ethnic bell curves. Race and ethnicity matter and perhaps matter the most, but certainly there are other dimensions along which tribal affiliations splinter, intelligence and ideology being a couple of obvious examples.

    I would argue that for instance China with its lack of political correctness and with a cognitive elitist worldview has approached topics such as intelligence and eugenics with much more boldness than perhaps we have here in the United States. Potentially uplifting your population through the science of modern genetics should be something worthwhile that a country should strive for, as opposed to being something perverse that we as a nation should frown upon. Interestingly enough, the alternative right has by and large focused on the racial and ethnic dimensions of the discussion more so than the cognitive dimension. I've even been accused somewhat negatively of being a eugenicist by others here!

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren't replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations? Hard to argue in the abstract that the country as a whole wouldn't be better off, leaving aside both the potential moral argument against such a policy and the obvious impracticality of putting such an idea to fruition. I assume Bill Kristol's comments were made in semi-jest, but I think in general adopting an orientation more aligned with cognitive elitism may not be a bad way of trying to understand the nuances of modern 21st century global society.

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren’t replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations? Hard to argue in the abstract that the country as a whole wouldn’t be better off….

    Actually, it’s quite simple to do so. The nation would be smaller, and there would be fewer copies of its members’ genetic structures. Obviously, if a nation wished to pursue eugenics for its benefit, it would replace its lesser lights with its own stellar individuals.

    Your proposal, like everything you have said over the years, is designed to benefit your race at whites’ expense.

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  183. @Discard
    Replace our own elites with Chinese elites? Take your Trojan horse elsewhere.

    BTW, it does not seem logical to "reverse multiculturalism" by allying with Orientals. Are they not from a very different culture?

    I think its pretty viable if the traditional West proves incapable of keeping itself alive. Our takeover would be a mercykilling, you know. At least order will remain, if a very different one.

    But I think we still have four years of Trump to see if the West can turn itself around.

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  184. @Yan Shen
    You know I've often thought to myself, "Man how great would it be if we woke up tomorrow and a Lee Kuan Yew style benevolent dictator ran the United States of America instead of the current crop of clueless politicians in our dysfunctional political system?"

    Imagine if we had a man who understood the fundamental realities of nature and who knew how to apply those principles towards governing a multiracial society? Then America might be on top for the next 200 years instead of quite possibly devolving into the next Brazil.

    I would argue that this is in fact why the alternative right should embrace East Asians as allies in the fight against the current PC insanity. If ever the currents of multiculturalism are to be reversed in the modern day West, I suspect that the East Asian example will have much to do with dispelling the prevailing leftist dogmas here...

    China seems to be doing reasonably okay and resisting the worst of SJW influence. Its still too early to tell, though, as the proverb goes.

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  185. @Tulip
    It would be great if we had a crop of right wing Asians, and such people exist. However, my sense is that the Asians are mostly angling to take over and push out the Jews, and are always well represented in SJW organizations.

    On the other hand, seeing the Asians and the Mexicans forcefully push the Jews and Blacks out of their political niche (in the name of Social Justice no doubt) and into the political void, well, it kind of makes me want to check my white privilege.

    My experience with alt-right organizations is that there’s an unusual percentage of Asians in them as well, sometimes awkwardly positioned with white nationalists. But the fourteen words are pretty reasonable, so it has never particularly troubled me.

    I agree with Twinkie that we seem to radicalize one side or another, however. Perhaps for every Daniel Chieh, there’s an Arthur Chu.

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    • Replies: @Yan Shen

    I agree with Twinkie that we seem to radicalize one side or another, however. Perhaps for every Daniel Chieh, there’s an Arthur Chu.
     
    As Yan Shen once stated, the sign of a great man is someone who refers to himself in the third person...
  186. @The Anti-Gnostic
    In my experience the average Anglo-Celt redneck grasps concepts like the common law and property all the way down to his bones, while even intelligent Asians and Middle Easterners are baffled by the notion that Law exists apart from the State.

    Depends on how you wish to see it, really.

    I would say that a number of Continental Europeans would be bewildered too by the strict definition of common law. Common law was a very Anglo invention, I’d say, and wasn’t widely employed anywhere else even in Europe.

    Everywhere that practiced agriculture understood property, of course. The more independent the farm was, the more likely they would understand property as being distinct from any communal help.

    Asia did have its own and significant form of canon, though, in the form of societal ties, traditions and basically, Confucianism. The notions of previous precedent being established wasn’t alien, and the study of history was pretty extensive.

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  187. @The Anti-Gnostic
    That seems to be a real flashpoint for cultures: elite values and popular values diverging, elites becoming decadent and materialistic, people putting into practice what their elite preach to them, usually with disastrous results (e.g., Jodie Foster may be a great single mom but everybody else, don't try this at home).

    Its cultural Alzheimer’s

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  188. Having now read the comment thread, and again checked the article, I want to again comment on the appearance of “White” in the headline: “Bill Kristol and Charles Murray Debate Replacing Unsatisfactory White Working Class with Immigrants”

    Actually Kristol is claiming that immigrants give a boost in the willingness to work hard of the ENTIRE American population. He specifically says, “…after two or three generations of hard work EVERYONE becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever.”

    Sailor in his headline is repeating the error of the AmRen writer Wolff, who didn’t quite comprehend the context of Kristol’s, “…if things are so bad as you say with the white working class, don’t you want to get new Americans in?” The “you” in the sentence is Murray, and “white working class” appears NOT because KRISTOL’S thesis centers on the white working class as the object of “replacement” but since MURRAY’S latest book addressed only the failings of the white working class, because Murray omitted Blacks as a subject because he wanted to avoid the repetition and distraction of the charges of racism directed at his earlier books.

    Capiche?

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    • Replies: @Jack D
    People are so anxious to believe that Kristol is the evil Joo neocon who hates the white working class that they aren't even listening to what he is saying. Is it the white working class who clips (bond) coupons?
    , @EriK
    Sorry but Kristol specified white working class. Clean out your ears.
  189. @Daniel Chieh
    My experience with alt-right organizations is that there's an unusual percentage of Asians in them as well, sometimes awkwardly positioned with white nationalists. But the fourteen words are pretty reasonable, so it has never particularly troubled me.

    I agree with Twinkie that we seem to radicalize one side or another, however. Perhaps for every Daniel Chieh, there's an Arthur Chu.

    I agree with Twinkie that we seem to radicalize one side or another, however. Perhaps for every Daniel Chieh, there’s an Arthur Chu.

    As Yan Shen once stated, the sign of a great man is someone who refers to himself in the third person…

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  190. @Sondjata
    "really want to succeed and really want their kids to live better lives than them and aren’t sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth"

    Anyone who has read The Millionaire Next Door knows full well that a "great defense" of one's income, including coupon clipping, is a part of the path to building wealth.

    I suppose Kristol would like for us to overpay for goods and services.

    Well somebody has to pay retail.

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  191. @Chrisnonymous
    Bill Kristol needs to be retired. He is odious and stupid too. Pilgrims=Sicilians=Meso-Americans!

    Because nothing has changed since John Adams time…

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  192. This is interesting:

    http://americasvoice.org/blog/local-leaders-across-nearly-30-states-speak-protecting-undocumented-immigrant-communities/

    Local leaders from 30 states and Washington, DC have now affirmed or are reaffirming commitments to help protect immigrant residents of their communities from Donald Trump’s destructive deportation proposals.

    Among the leaders from the states are mayors, police chiefs, faith leaders, the heads of large universities and private institutions, and include some of the most populous and diverse cities in the nation.

    Below is a running list of statements from these leaders, which we will continue to update as more continue to speak out in defense of their communities.

    Thanks for the enemies list, guys.

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  193. @slumber_j

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution?
     
    Deported them to where, exactly?

    How about instead considering a more practically workable thought experiment that entails the deportation--or even better, non-admission--of the lamest people who are here or want to be here illegally? For starters.

    Deported them to where, exactly?

    When the discussion gets around to removing the bottom 10%, options other than deportation will be in the mix. Count on it.

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  194. @The Millennial Falcon
    Watching him sprawled on a chair with a big beer belly lamenting his "tiny, pathetic future" while he's got an untouchable legacy sinecure and criticizing the white working class as lazy and decadent and in need of replacement is just too much to believe.

    I'm wondering if Bill Kristol is shifting into performance art. I call this one "Elitist in Repose."

    Watching him sprawled on a chair with a big beer belly …

    I’ve seen him a functions in NYC, and he has a particularly unhealthy physique–all the signs of a heart attack waiting to happen. I’ve often thought that a healthy body is necessary for a healthy mind, i.e. self-awareness is a vital personal characteristic.

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  195. @Matra
    Look, to be totally honest, if things are so bad as you say with the white working class, don’t you want to get new Americans in?

    The lack of empathy with Americans who are not new - ie the descendants of those who built the country that Jews like Kristol's ancestors wanted to move to - and the idea that anyone who is imported instantly a "new American" reveal the neocon mentality. There is no more reasoning with neocons than there is with Antifa tolerance squads. They hate the people of the West with every fibre of their being. Frum is no better. If you doubt that read his Twitter account.

    I guess Kristol was asleep when Tony Blair/Gordon Brown got new Britons in. How’d that work out?

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  196. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Gene Su
    What does Bill Kristol have against poor whites?

    paranoia – he wants the majority population turned into a minority because he thinks that will make Jews safer but white proles are resisting.

    He’s using elite class arguments to con upper class whites into helping with their own minoritization.

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  197. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @res
    Clipping coupons is a great metaphor to find out more about people's backgrounds. FWIW although I am aware of the bond interpretation, my first instinct is to think of the newspaper supermarket kind.

    yes lol, i didn’t know about the bond thing

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  198. There’s a semi-frequent commenter on another board I frequent who has explicitly admitted to pushing “IQ supremacy” in order to co-opt and destabilize right-wing fora. Not saying Yan Shen is that guy, but the MO is familiar.

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  199. @Gandydancer
    Having now read the comment thread, and again checked the article, I want to again comment on the appearance of "White" in the headline: "Bill Kristol and Charles Murray Debate Replacing Unsatisfactory White Working Class with Immigrants"

    Actually Kristol is claiming that immigrants give a boost in the willingness to work hard of the ENTIRE American population. He specifically says, "...after two or three generations of hard work EVERYONE becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever."

    Sailor in his headline is repeating the error of the AmRen writer Wolff, who didn't quite comprehend the context of Kristol's, "...if things are so bad as you say with the white working class, don’t you want to get new Americans in?" The "you" in the sentence is Murray, and "white working class" appears NOT because KRISTOL'S thesis centers on the white working class as the object of "replacement" but since MURRAY'S latest book addressed only the failings of the white working class, because Murray omitted Blacks as a subject because he wanted to avoid the repetition and distraction of the charges of racism directed at his earlier books.

    Capiche?

    People are so anxious to believe that Kristol is the evil Joo neocon who hates the white working class that they aren’t even listening to what he is saying. Is it the white working class who clips (bond) coupons?

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    • Replies: @SPMoore8
    I think you and Gandydancer are working a little too hard to put a nice face on Kristol's remarks. Yes, the totality of his comments implies that all groups become decadent after a few generations -- I suppose he could have referenced Buddenbrooks if he wanted to sound like an "intellectual" -- and therefore (in terms of regimes, cliques, or wealthy families) they require "new blood". But that's an old, trivial, and ultimately entitled argument.

    But for every immigrant family whose ambition and drive peters out after a few generations, there's a settled family whose members have something to prove, and you don't have to be a low skilled immigrant laborer to have something to prove.

    In the context of this particular exchange, however, Kristol is selling the fiction that "the reason" the the white working class is failing is because it has gotten fat and lazy, whereas the reason the white working class has gotten fat and lazy is because there isn't enough productive work leading to a hopeful future for them to do.

    And so -- the narrative continues, and no, Kristol didn't write it, he's just repeating remarks that I believe were first made by an AA conservative over at National Review -- if we bring in a lot of Latins and Asians our economy will take off like a rocket. In other words, we have a lot of white Americans in the working class who are now generally worthless and they need to be replaced by hungry immigrants. That's the instrumentalization of his remarks that I find offensive. What next, useless mouths? And moreover bringing in millions of low IQ, low skilled, and culturally different immigrants is not going to help our country and isn't going to do anything to help that white working class, who, apparently, isn't worth saving.

    There's just an attitude towards his fellow Americans that many of us find creepy.
  200. @Citizen of a Silly Country
    What's Kristol's feelings about the Jewish working class in Israel?

    Pretty sure he doesn't want to replace them with hard-working Mexicans. No, that wouldn't do because they're, well, family, right.

    We have an elite who care nothing of the people because the people aren't "their" people.

    We’re all tribal/clannish/nativist in the end. Me thinks it comes from birth and blood and family. Like evolution. Funny that. Should be plain as day. The Utopian statists (Kristol) always have other ideas that they conjure in their imagination.

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  201. @Gandydancer
    Having now read the comment thread, and again checked the article, I want to again comment on the appearance of "White" in the headline: "Bill Kristol and Charles Murray Debate Replacing Unsatisfactory White Working Class with Immigrants"

    Actually Kristol is claiming that immigrants give a boost in the willingness to work hard of the ENTIRE American population. He specifically says, "...after two or three generations of hard work EVERYONE becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever."

    Sailor in his headline is repeating the error of the AmRen writer Wolff, who didn't quite comprehend the context of Kristol's, "...if things are so bad as you say with the white working class, don’t you want to get new Americans in?" The "you" in the sentence is Murray, and "white working class" appears NOT because KRISTOL'S thesis centers on the white working class as the object of "replacement" but since MURRAY'S latest book addressed only the failings of the white working class, because Murray omitted Blacks as a subject because he wanted to avoid the repetition and distraction of the charges of racism directed at his earlier books.

    Capiche?

    Sorry but Kristol specified white working class. Clean out your ears.

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  202. @Anon
    I think the people wanting the emigrants here and their 401K better off are the segment of the boomers who don't have grandchildren. They are probably divorced or were never married, and they either didn't have children or they're aliened from their own children because the latter resented being raised in a divorced family with all the psychological mess that entails.

    These boomers have moved so much in their lives that they have no sense of community and don't know their neighbors. They don't live near their blood kin and rarely see them. They don't belong to social clubs or voluntary organizations. They are truly atomized people. They're what you get when all of a normal society's ties have broken down. They are honestly capable of feeling more empathy for some woeful-looking immigrant they seen on a TV news story than someone they work with every day. They feel betrayed or abandoned by the people in their life, so they don't feel any need to defend their kin or their nation state.

    The people I know who are hardcore liberals all have a history of trouble in the relationships they had with their own parents, or in their relationships they have with their spouses, ex- or otherwise, and their children, or else they didn't marry or have kids at all.

    I represent a lot of the demographic details you describe–but none of the psychological or political characteristics.

    Though I agree with many of your observations, e.g. loss of community, the result of society’s ties breaking down, atomization.

    Conservatives and the right might spend some time learning to communicate with these folks rather than writing them off as broken people with troubled relationships and no family. Who wishes that for their fellow man?

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  203. @Yan Shen
    You know I've often thought to myself, "Man how great would it be if we woke up tomorrow and a Lee Kuan Yew style benevolent dictator ran the United States of America instead of the current crop of clueless politicians in our dysfunctional political system?"

    Imagine if we had a man who understood the fundamental realities of nature and who knew how to apply those principles towards governing a multiracial society? Then America might be on top for the next 200 years instead of quite possibly devolving into the next Brazil.

    I would argue that this is in fact why the alternative right should embrace East Asians as allies in the fight against the current PC insanity. If ever the currents of multiculturalism are to be reversed in the modern day West, I suspect that the East Asian example will have much to do with dispelling the prevailing leftist dogmas here...

    Imagine if we had a man who understood the fundamental realities of nature and who knew how to apply those principles towards governing a multiracial society?

    Does he leap tall buildings in a single bound? Yeah, we know who that guy is…

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  204. Your application to join the SS has been received, but we’ll have to perform background checks on you to confirm your pure Aryan ancestry.

    That was almost as funny as when that White bartender asked Eddie Murphy if he wanted a “Black Russian.”

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  205. Aww, yeahhh:

    Mexican leftist leader heads to US to challenge Trump

    It’s good that the left is doing so much to sink themselves. This will really go over well with moderate and swing voters. Humans in general, really; who doesn’t love it when foreign pols stick their noses into domestic politics? Run foreign political campaigns on their soil?

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  206. @ben tillman

    I wouldn’t say that immigration with a eugenic aim isn’t worthwhile....
     
    Any eugenic improvement can be done using our own gene pool.

    Any eugenic improvement can be done using our own gene pool.

    I just learned that your namesake supported Mr Wilson’s mad war plans, except for the newfangled idea of drafting blacks along with whites, which he strenuously opposed. How eugenic of him, to send white boys abroad to die, while black slackers stay home and breed!

    Eventually a compromise was reached, where blacks were focibly inducted along with whites, but given no weapon deadlier than a soup ladle.

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  207. @Svigor
    You never could beat me Yan Shen"

    What if I replaced your brain with the brain of a genius? Wouldn't you be much better off?

    ~Yan Shen

    Having stated the above, I’ve also at times advocated both here and elsewhere a philosophy which I’ve referred to as cognitive elitism, the simple idea that cognitive capital matters tremendously, especially in an ever increasingly global and competitive society. I once stated that smart people in general probably feel more in common with other smart people than they do with the bottom halves of their respective ethnic bell curves. Race and ethnicity matter and perhaps matter the most, but certainly there are other dimensions along which tribal affiliations splinter, intelligence and ideology being a couple of obvious examples.
     
    I am sympathetic to "cognitive elitism," but the term doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. "Cognitively elite" populations like the Japanese, Chinese, Israelis, etc., don't allow immigration of other "cognitively elite" populations.

    If we observe the behavior of "cognitively elite" populations like the Chinese, Japanese, and Israelis, what we see is that they only allow "cognitively elite" immigration from populations that are physically and culturally similar to their own. For Japanese, it is overwhelmingly their northeast Asian neighbors. For Israel, it is their fellow Jews.

    China with its lack of political correctness and with a cognitive elitist worldview has approached topics such as intelligence and eugenics with much more boldness than perhaps we have here in the United States. Potentially uplifting your population through the science of modern genetics should be something worthwhile that a country should strive for, as opposed to being something perverse that we as a nation should frown upon. Interestingly enough, the alternative right has by and large focused on the racial and ethnic dimensions of the discussion more so than the cognitive dimension. I’ve even been accused somewhat negatively of being a eugenicist by others here!
     
    How is it particularly interesting? Have the Chinese prioritized brains over ethnicity and started importing non-east-Asian "cognitive elites"? Have the Israelis started importing non-Jewish "cognitive elites" (there are certainly enough in China for them to totally up their tech game)? Have the Japanese started importing non-east-Asian "cognitive elites"?

    I suppose that it is open borders mania - including the mania for "cognitive elite" immigrants - that has helped retard the American fields of intelligence and eugenics, in much the same way that it has helped retard robotics in agriculture.

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren’t replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations?
     
    What if we replaced our brains with brains donated from geniuses? Wouldn't we much better off?

    I propose an alternative strategy. Israel has managed to survive springing into existence in 1948 in completely hostile territory. I suppose there is no better example of national survival. In that light, I think modeling our immigration policies on theirs is the way forward.

    Since national survival precedes all other concerns, I think this makes for sound strategy. It would also be closer to the "cognitive elite's" actual behavior, than Yan Shen's take on "cognitive elitism" is.

    P.S., Yan Shen, welcome back old boy. It's been a while.

    ***

    The thing to remember with Yan Shen & company is that the war's going well for them. All of this is happening in our territories. Theirs are not in play, nor do they seem likely to be any time soon.

    The thing to remember with Yan Shen & company is that the war’s going well for them. All of this is happening in our territories. Theirs are not in play, nor do they seem likely to be any time soon.

    This.

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  208. @Jack D
    People are so anxious to believe that Kristol is the evil Joo neocon who hates the white working class that they aren't even listening to what he is saying. Is it the white working class who clips (bond) coupons?

    I think you and Gandydancer are working a little too hard to put a nice face on Kristol’s remarks. Yes, the totality of his comments implies that all groups become decadent after a few generations — I suppose he could have referenced Buddenbrooks if he wanted to sound like an “intellectual” — and therefore (in terms of regimes, cliques, or wealthy families) they require “new blood”. But that’s an old, trivial, and ultimately entitled argument.

    But for every immigrant family whose ambition and drive peters out after a few generations, there’s a settled family whose members have something to prove, and you don’t have to be a low skilled immigrant laborer to have something to prove.

    In the context of this particular exchange, however, Kristol is selling the fiction that “the reason” the the white working class is failing is because it has gotten fat and lazy, whereas the reason the white working class has gotten fat and lazy is because there isn’t enough productive work leading to a hopeful future for them to do.

    And so — the narrative continues, and no, Kristol didn’t write it, he’s just repeating remarks that I believe were first made by an AA conservative over at National Review — if we bring in a lot of Latins and Asians our economy will take off like a rocket. In other words, we have a lot of white Americans in the working class who are now generally worthless and they need to be replaced by hungry immigrants. That’s the instrumentalization of his remarks that I find offensive. What next, useless mouths? And moreover bringing in millions of low IQ, low skilled, and culturally different immigrants is not going to help our country and isn’t going to do anything to help that white working class, who, apparently, isn’t worth saving.

    There’s just an attitude towards his fellow Americans that many of us find creepy.

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    • Replies: @Jack d
    I'm sorry, read the quote - he's just NOT talking about the working class, he's talking about the spoiled upper classes:


    You can make a case that America has been great because every—I think John Adams said this—basically if you’re a free society, a capitalist society, after two or three generations of hard work everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever. Then, luckily, you have these waves of people coming in from Italy, Ireland, Russia, and now Mexico, who really want to work hard and really want to succeed and really want their kids to live better lives than them and aren’t sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth. In that respect, I don’t know how this moment is that different from the early 20th century.
     
    Where he goes wrong, I think, is to assume that Mexicans are the same as Jews and other Ellis Island immigrant groups. They just aren't.
  209. @Anatoly Karlin

    … At one point, Dr. Murray explained how, though he never warmed to Donald Trump, the 2016 election did lead him to adopt a restrictionist position on low-skilled immigration. Dr. Kristol replied that he’d “actually sort of gone the opposite way on immigration.” …
     
    When the heat goes up people start flocking to their own.

    Since you returned to Russia, your English has gotten worse. Have you noticed yourself?

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  210. @Yan Shen
    You know I've often thought to myself, "Man how great would it be if we woke up tomorrow and a Lee Kuan Yew style benevolent dictator ran the United States of America instead of the current crop of clueless politicians in our dysfunctional political system?"

    Imagine if we had a man who understood the fundamental realities of nature and who knew how to apply those principles towards governing a multiracial society? Then America might be on top for the next 200 years instead of quite possibly devolving into the next Brazil.

    I would argue that this is in fact why the alternative right should embrace East Asians as allies in the fight against the current PC insanity. If ever the currents of multiculturalism are to be reversed in the modern day West, I suspect that the East Asian example will have much to do with dispelling the prevailing leftist dogmas here...

    I don’t want to be on top. I just want to have safety, Christmas, and low population density.

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  211. @Yan Shen

    No matter how fat and lazy and ugly a redneck, he’ll fit in our society a thousand times better than a hard working member of a different race. This in the end is what it comes down to.
     
    I actually disagree with this and in fact would argue that it can be proven to be empirically false. Race and ethnicity matter yes, but as I've argued that the fallacy of some on the alternative right is that these are somehow the only dimensions of tribal affiliation. I would argue that in fact in today's increasingly global and interconnected society, intelligence has also become increasingly more relevant as well. Think of social compatibility as a multi-variable function where race and ethnicity may in fact be the two most important factors but certainly other salient attributes matter as well.

    That being said, I've stated that I don't really have any specific policy ideas in mind about how we as a nation or any nation in particular would adopt a more cognitive elitist point of view, although I've brought up China's approach towards eugenics as something admirable.

    In general, sentiments like the one espoused above represent a fundamental fallacy that I believe is worth pointing out.

    the fallacy of some on the alternative right is that these are somehow the only dimensions of tribal affiliation.

    The problem with this theory is that the cognitive elite are currently living parasitically off traditional nation-states and groups composed of ethnic affiliation. It’s true that Harvard and the SF Bay area are composed of tribes of a sort, but those tribes’ meaning–what ethnicity provides to citizens–is derived from being located in and separate from broader non-cognitive elite societies. So the notion of building a state based on this kind of tribal affiliation is wrong-headed.

    Aside from issues like resource scarcity and social status, just look at the globalizing entertainment industry, which is becoming ever more technically adept but turning out more and more dreck. Brains gets you nowhere without culture.

    Now, if you want to talk about raising a nation’s average IQ as a goal, that is another matter. It doesn’t have to be done through immigration.

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  212. @Svigor
    You never could beat me Yan Shen"

    What if I replaced your brain with the brain of a genius? Wouldn't you be much better off?

    ~Yan Shen

    Having stated the above, I’ve also at times advocated both here and elsewhere a philosophy which I’ve referred to as cognitive elitism, the simple idea that cognitive capital matters tremendously, especially in an ever increasingly global and competitive society. I once stated that smart people in general probably feel more in common with other smart people than they do with the bottom halves of their respective ethnic bell curves. Race and ethnicity matter and perhaps matter the most, but certainly there are other dimensions along which tribal affiliations splinter, intelligence and ideology being a couple of obvious examples.
     
    I am sympathetic to "cognitive elitism," but the term doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. "Cognitively elite" populations like the Japanese, Chinese, Israelis, etc., don't allow immigration of other "cognitively elite" populations.

    If we observe the behavior of "cognitively elite" populations like the Chinese, Japanese, and Israelis, what we see is that they only allow "cognitively elite" immigration from populations that are physically and culturally similar to their own. For Japanese, it is overwhelmingly their northeast Asian neighbors. For Israel, it is their fellow Jews.

    China with its lack of political correctness and with a cognitive elitist worldview has approached topics such as intelligence and eugenics with much more boldness than perhaps we have here in the United States. Potentially uplifting your population through the science of modern genetics should be something worthwhile that a country should strive for, as opposed to being something perverse that we as a nation should frown upon. Interestingly enough, the alternative right has by and large focused on the racial and ethnic dimensions of the discussion more so than the cognitive dimension. I’ve even been accused somewhat negatively of being a eugenicist by others here!
     
    How is it particularly interesting? Have the Chinese prioritized brains over ethnicity and started importing non-east-Asian "cognitive elites"? Have the Israelis started importing non-Jewish "cognitive elites" (there are certainly enough in China for them to totally up their tech game)? Have the Japanese started importing non-east-Asian "cognitive elites"?

    I suppose that it is open borders mania - including the mania for "cognitive elite" immigrants - that has helped retard the American fields of intelligence and eugenics, in much the same way that it has helped retard robotics in agriculture.

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren’t replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations?
     
    What if we replaced our brains with brains donated from geniuses? Wouldn't we much better off?

    I propose an alternative strategy. Israel has managed to survive springing into existence in 1948 in completely hostile territory. I suppose there is no better example of national survival. In that light, I think modeling our immigration policies on theirs is the way forward.

    Since national survival precedes all other concerns, I think this makes for sound strategy. It would also be closer to the "cognitive elite's" actual behavior, than Yan Shen's take on "cognitive elitism" is.

    P.S., Yan Shen, welcome back old boy. It's been a while.

    ***

    The thing to remember with Yan Shen & company is that the war's going well for them. All of this is happening in our territories. Theirs are not in play, nor do they seem likely to be any time soon.

    I am sympathetic to “cognitive elitism,” but the term doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. “Cognitively elite” populations like the Japanese, Chinese, Israelis, etc., don’t allow immigration of other “cognitively elite” populations.

    Not sure if that’s necessarily true with respect to the Sinosphere. For instance in Singapore…

    In Singapore, the term immigrant workers is separated into foreign workers and foreign talents. Foreign talent refers to foreigners with professional qualifications or acceptable degrees working at the higher end of Singapore’s economy. They come from India, Australia, the Philippines, People’s Republic of China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, Republic of Korea, Malaysia, Europe, New Zealand and the United States.

    And in Hong Kong…

    This is a quota-based program that seeks to attract highly skilled persons to settle in Hong Kong. An applicant does not need to obtain a job offer in advance before entering into Hong Kong on a “skilled immigrants” transfer. Two sets of points system are used to evaluate applicants. These are the Achievement Based Points Test[1] and the General Points Test.[2]

    Now that seems like Confucian meritocracy to me, rather than the blatant ethnic championing that you seem to impute to these places.

    Note that ethnic homogeneity of the majority by and large can be preserved under a cognitive elitist worldview by simply by and large getting rid of low skilled immigration and setting a quota for high skilled labor. That’s it. That’s all I’ve advocated for. Seems ridiculous to accuse me of pushing for the importation of Chinese at the expense of the native white American majority in this country, as some have done, when I’ve explicitly stated that I believe in “citizenism” as espoused by Steve Sailer and am in favor of limiting even legal immigration to the United States.

    The only point I’m making is that in today’s ever increasingly global and cosmopolitan society, don’t be surprised by the fact that intelligence and ideology also become increasingly more salient dimensions of tribal affiliation. The fundamental fallacy of the white nationalist movement is encapsulated by the prior assertion in this thread that no matter how lazy or ugly a redneck was, he or she would be a much better fit in American society than someone of high intelligence from a different ethnic group. I would argue that this statement simply isn’t true and in fact can be shown to be empirically false, in the same sense that one can show empirically that the earth revolves around the sun and not vice versa.

    In its stead I offer a contrasting thesis. For lack of a better name, let’s call it the fundamental theorem of cognitive elitism. By and large cognitive elites identify more closely with each other than with the bottom halves of the cognitive distributions of their respective ethnic groups! I think understanding this point may lead to a more nuanced view of the modern global political climate that ultimately might in fact lead to greater national prosperity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Discard
    We have in this country a lot of experience with immigration, what works for us and what does not. Specifically, we have been dealing with one ethnic group in particular with high intelligence for over a century, and the results have not been good for us. We don't want a bunch of Confucian Bill Kristols.
  213. @Svigor
    You never could beat me Yan Shen"

    What if I replaced your brain with the brain of a genius? Wouldn't you be much better off?

    ~Yan Shen

    Having stated the above, I’ve also at times advocated both here and elsewhere a philosophy which I’ve referred to as cognitive elitism, the simple idea that cognitive capital matters tremendously, especially in an ever increasingly global and competitive society. I once stated that smart people in general probably feel more in common with other smart people than they do with the bottom halves of their respective ethnic bell curves. Race and ethnicity matter and perhaps matter the most, but certainly there are other dimensions along which tribal affiliations splinter, intelligence and ideology being a couple of obvious examples.
     
    I am sympathetic to "cognitive elitism," but the term doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. "Cognitively elite" populations like the Japanese, Chinese, Israelis, etc., don't allow immigration of other "cognitively elite" populations.

    If we observe the behavior of "cognitively elite" populations like the Chinese, Japanese, and Israelis, what we see is that they only allow "cognitively elite" immigration from populations that are physically and culturally similar to their own. For Japanese, it is overwhelmingly their northeast Asian neighbors. For Israel, it is their fellow Jews.

    China with its lack of political correctness and with a cognitive elitist worldview has approached topics such as intelligence and eugenics with much more boldness than perhaps we have here in the United States. Potentially uplifting your population through the science of modern genetics should be something worthwhile that a country should strive for, as opposed to being something perverse that we as a nation should frown upon. Interestingly enough, the alternative right has by and large focused on the racial and ethnic dimensions of the discussion more so than the cognitive dimension. I’ve even been accused somewhat negatively of being a eugenicist by others here!
     
    How is it particularly interesting? Have the Chinese prioritized brains over ethnicity and started importing non-east-Asian "cognitive elites"? Have the Israelis started importing non-Jewish "cognitive elites" (there are certainly enough in China for them to totally up their tech game)? Have the Japanese started importing non-east-Asian "cognitive elites"?

    I suppose that it is open borders mania - including the mania for "cognitive elite" immigrants - that has helped retard the American fields of intelligence and eugenics, in much the same way that it has helped retard robotics in agriculture.

    Now certainly this would never happen nor would I explicitly advocate for such a thing, but in theory what might happen if say a country deported the bottom 10% of its cognitive distribution? And what if those individuals weren’t replaced one for one but instead were replaced with a highly functioning minority of human capital from other nations?
     
    What if we replaced our brains with brains donated from geniuses? Wouldn't we much better off?

    I propose an alternative strategy. Israel has managed to survive springing into existence in 1948 in completely hostile territory. I suppose there is no better example of national survival. In that light, I think modeling our immigration policies on theirs is the way forward.

    Since national survival precedes all other concerns, I think this makes for sound strategy. It would also be closer to the "cognitive elite's" actual behavior, than Yan Shen's take on "cognitive elitism" is.

    P.S., Yan Shen, welcome back old boy. It's been a while.

    ***

    The thing to remember with Yan Shen & company is that the war's going well for them. All of this is happening in our territories. Theirs are not in play, nor do they seem likely to be any time soon.

    The thing to remember with Yan Shen & company is that the war’s going well for them. All of this is happening in our territories. Theirs are not in play, nor do they seem likely to be any time soon.

    As I’ve stated in another thread, as a US citizen my land is the land of the United States of America and my people are the other citizens of this country! Of course, instead of accepting an olive branch and gaining an ally in the battle against the current PC insanity, some people prefer to persist in their narrow minded thinking and further hurt the very cause they supposedly claim to fight for…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Discard
    If you were loyal to the U.S., you would not propose changes that would damage the White Americans that created the country while benefitting your brethren abroad. There may be Oriental Americans, but you are not one. You are a paper American.
  214. @Yan Shen

    I am sympathetic to “cognitive elitism,” but the term doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. “Cognitively elite” populations like the Japanese, Chinese, Israelis, etc., don’t allow immigration of other “cognitively elite” populations.
     
    Not sure if that's necessarily true with respect to the Sinosphere. For instance in Singapore...

    In Singapore, the term immigrant workers is separated into foreign workers and foreign talents. Foreign talent refers to foreigners with professional qualifications or acceptable degrees working at the higher end of Singapore's economy. They come from India, Australia, the Philippines, People's Republic of China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, Republic of Korea, Malaysia, Europe, New Zealand and the United States.
     
    And in Hong Kong...

    This is a quota-based program that seeks to attract highly skilled persons to settle in Hong Kong. An applicant does not need to obtain a job offer in advance before entering into Hong Kong on a "skilled immigrants" transfer. Two sets of points system are used to evaluate applicants. These are the Achievement Based Points Test[1] and the General Points Test.[2]
     
    Now that seems like Confucian meritocracy to me, rather than the blatant ethnic championing that you seem to impute to these places.

    Note that ethnic homogeneity of the majority by and large can be preserved under a cognitive elitist worldview by simply by and large getting rid of low skilled immigration and setting a quota for high skilled labor. That's it. That's all I've advocated for. Seems ridiculous to accuse me of pushing for the importation of Chinese at the expense of the native white American majority in this country, as some have done, when I've explicitly stated that I believe in "citizenism" as espoused by Steve Sailer and am in favor of limiting even legal immigration to the United States.

    The only point I'm making is that in today's ever increasingly global and cosmopolitan society, don't be surprised by the fact that intelligence and ideology also become increasingly more salient dimensions of tribal affiliation. The fundamental fallacy of the white nationalist movement is encapsulated by the prior assertion in this thread that no matter how lazy or ugly a redneck was, he or she would be a much better fit in American society than someone of high intelligence from a different ethnic group. I would argue that this statement simply isn't true and in fact can be shown to be empirically false, in the same sense that one can show empirically that the earth revolves around the sun and not vice versa.

    In its stead I offer a contrasting thesis. For lack of a better name, let's call it the fundamental theorem of cognitive elitism. By and large cognitive elites identify more closely with each other than with the bottom halves of the cognitive distributions of their respective ethnic groups! I think understanding this point may lead to a more nuanced view of the modern global political climate that ultimately might in fact lead to greater national prosperity.

    We have in this country a lot of experience with immigration, what works for us and what does not. Specifically, we have been dealing with one ethnic group in particular with high intelligence for over a century, and the results have not been good for us. We don’t want a bunch of Confucian Bill Kristols.

    Read More
  215. @SPMoore8
    I think you and Gandydancer are working a little too hard to put a nice face on Kristol's remarks. Yes, the totality of his comments implies that all groups become decadent after a few generations -- I suppose he could have referenced Buddenbrooks if he wanted to sound like an "intellectual" -- and therefore (in terms of regimes, cliques, or wealthy families) they require "new blood". But that's an old, trivial, and ultimately entitled argument.

    But for every immigrant family whose ambition and drive peters out after a few generations, there's a settled family whose members have something to prove, and you don't have to be a low skilled immigrant laborer to have something to prove.

    In the context of this particular exchange, however, Kristol is selling the fiction that "the reason" the the white working class is failing is because it has gotten fat and lazy, whereas the reason the white working class has gotten fat and lazy is because there isn't enough productive work leading to a hopeful future for them to do.

    And so -- the narrative continues, and no, Kristol didn't write it, he's just repeating remarks that I believe were first made by an AA conservative over at National Review -- if we bring in a lot of Latins and Asians our economy will take off like a rocket. In other words, we have a lot of white Americans in the working class who are now generally worthless and they need to be replaced by hungry immigrants. That's the instrumentalization of his remarks that I find offensive. What next, useless mouths? And moreover bringing in millions of low IQ, low skilled, and culturally different immigrants is not going to help our country and isn't going to do anything to help that white working class, who, apparently, isn't worth saving.

    There's just an attitude towards his fellow Americans that many of us find creepy.

    I’m sorry, read the quote – he’s just NOT talking about the working class, he’s talking about the spoiled upper classes:

    You can make a case that America has been great because every—I think John Adams said this—basically if you’re a free society, a capitalist society, after two or three generations of hard work everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever. Then, luckily, you have these waves of people coming in from Italy, Ireland, Russia, and now Mexico, who really want to work hard and really want to succeed and really want their kids to live better lives than them and aren’t sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth. In that respect, I don’t know how this moment is that different from the early 20th century.

    Where he goes wrong, I think, is to assume that Mexicans are the same as Jews and other Ellis Island immigrant groups. They just aren’t.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Besides a few cinematographers and the like, how many Mexicans have replaced how many upper class Americans at anything?
    , @SPMoore8
    We're going to have to disagree on this one. He begins his remarks: "Now to be totally honest, if things are so bad for the white working class don't you want to get new Americans in who aren't gonna be ..... "

    Then he pauses and shrugs his shoulders. Then he shifts gears. Twice.

    Only then does he launch into his remarks that you quote:

    You can make a case that America has been great because every—I think John Adams said this—basically if you’re a free society, a capitalist society, after two or three generations of hard work everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever. Then, luckily, you have these waves of people coming in from Italy, Ireland, Russia, and now Mexico, who really want to work hard and really want to succeed and really want their kids to live better lives than them
     
    Now let's go back to the original statement. I mean the one before he shifted gears, twice. He sets up the conditional, "if things are so bad for the white working class" -- not Henry Adams the VIII, living on his floor in the Dakota clipping coupons so he doesn't have to work. Then he says, "don't you want to get new Americans in who aren't gonna be ....." Who aren't going to be what?

    Then after shifting gears and in effect calling himself out, he elaborates in the quote above. And since he left the issue of the status of the American working class up in the air, and how things were so bad for them, and therefore we should bring in new Americans who aren't going to be .....

    How would you complete that sentence? My guess is that he was going to say "like the American working class."

    So then he goes on in the para given above, which logically extends from his comments about the American working class and why we have to bring in all of these new Americans, and it's only when he has to contrast these high energy new Americans who are going to save us that he starts talking about "aren’t sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth." In other words, he copped out and pretended to contrast these new Americans with spoiled trust fund kids. Why? Probably because he knew that if he finished his sentence with what he actually believes about the white working class, i.e., fat, stupid, lazy, he would have gotten into trouble.

    Why do I think my interpretation is correct?

    #1 - The discussion was about the American working class, it was not about Reggie van Filthy Rich living a decadent lifestyle in Poughkeepsie.

    #2 - The decadent rich are not an issue to anyone.

    #3 - All of these "new Americans" aren't going to have any impact on the lifestyle of the idle rich. They will however have a distinct impact on the lives of the American working class, which is the original context in which they were even brought up.

    But if you disagree still, we're just going to have to leave it that way.
    , @syonredux

    Where he goes wrong, I think, is to assume that Mexicans are the same as Jews and other Ellis Island immigrant groups. They just aren’t.
     
    I don't think that anyone is quite stupid enough to compare Mexican immigrants to Ashkenazi Jews. That's a group that started producing Nobel-prize winning physcists within a generation of arriving in the USA (e.g., Albert Michelson, the first American to win a Nobel in a scientific field).

    No, the usual comparison is to Italians, but even that falls apart when you examine it closely.For example, have we had a first generation Mexican-American version of first generation Italian-American Frank Capra:

    Capra was born Francesco Rosario Capra in Bisacquino, Sicily, a village near Palermo. He was the youngest of seven children of Salvatore Capra, a fruit grower, and the former Rosaria "Serah" Nicolosi. Capra's family was Roman Catholic.[3] The name "Capra", notes Capra's biographer Joseph McBride, represents his family's closeness to the land, and means "goat".[4] He notes that the English word "capricious" derives from it, "evoking the animal's skittish temperament", adding that "the name neatly expresses two aspects of Frank Capra's personality: emotionalism and obstinacy."[4]
    In 1903, when he was five, Capra emigrated to the United States with his family, who traveled in one of the steerage compartments of the steamship, Germania, which was the cheapest way to book passage. For Capra, the journey, which took 13 days, remained in his mind for the rest of his life as one of his worst experiences:
    You're all together – you have no privacy. You have a cot. Very few people have trunks or anything that takes up space. They have just what they can carry in their hands or in a bag. Nobody takes their clothes off. There's no ventilation, and it stinks like hell. They're all miserable. It's the most degrading place you could ever be.[5]
    Capra remembers the ship's arrival in New York Harbor, where he saw "a statue of a great lady, taller than a church steeple, holding a torch above the land we were about to enter". He recalls his father's exclamation at the sight:
    Ciccio, look! Look at that! That's the greatest light since the star of Bethlehem! That's the light of freedom! Remember that. Freedom.[6]
    The family settled in Los Angeles's East Side (today Chinatown) which Capra described in his autobiography as an Italian "ghetto".[7] Capra's father worked as a fruit picker and young Capra sold newspapers after school for 10 years, until he graduated from high school. Instead of working after graduating, as his parents wanted, he enrolled in college. He worked through college at the California Institute of Technology, playing banjo at nightclubs and taking odd jobs, which included working at the campus laundry facility, waiting tables, and cleaning engines at a local power plant. He studied chemical engineering and graduated in the spring of 1918
     
    And after graduating from CALTECH, he went on to make s string of classic films: It Happened One Night, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, It's a Wonderful Life, etc



    Even Barone has given up on the Italian comparison:

    In my 2001 book The New Americans, I likened the Hispanic immigrants of today to the Italians who came through Ellis Island a century ago. Both came from low-trust societies; both tended to have close family ties and a willingness to work hard. Both headed to big metro areas with lots of job opportunities. But so far the Hispanics who crossed the southern border don’t seem to have moved upward as rapidly as Italian-Americans did in the last century.
     
    barone >http://www.nationalreview.com/article/415699/will-american-dream-hold-true-hispanics-michael-barone

    The Ellis Islanders, blocked from upward mobility at home, brought to America advantages of genetic endowment and cultural tradition — nature and nurture — which enabled them to move upward unusually rapidly. Asian immigrants seem to be moving upward similarly today. But not the group the Census Bureau calls Hispanics. In my 2001 book, The New Americans, I predicted that Hispanics would move upward, much as Italians had a century before. That was overoptimistic. There has been little or no upward mobility among third- and fourth-generation Hispanics.

    Why the difference? One reason is that current Hispanic immigrants seem to be characterized by economic need rather than second-class status. Immigrants from Mexico and illegal immigrants (mostly from Mexico) are particularly downscale.

     
  216. @Yan Shen

    The thing to remember with Yan Shen & company is that the war’s going well for them. All of this is happening in our territories. Theirs are not in play, nor do they seem likely to be any time soon.
     
    As I've stated in another thread, as a US citizen my land is the land of the United States of America and my people are the other citizens of this country! Of course, instead of accepting an olive branch and gaining an ally in the battle against the current PC insanity, some people prefer to persist in their narrow minded thinking and further hurt the very cause they supposedly claim to fight for...

    If you were loyal to the U.S., you would not propose changes that would damage the White Americans that created the country while benefitting your brethren abroad. There may be Oriental Americans, but you are not one. You are a paper American.

    Read More
  217. @Jack d
    I'm sorry, read the quote - he's just NOT talking about the working class, he's talking about the spoiled upper classes:


    You can make a case that America has been great because every—I think John Adams said this—basically if you’re a free society, a capitalist society, after two or three generations of hard work everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever. Then, luckily, you have these waves of people coming in from Italy, Ireland, Russia, and now Mexico, who really want to work hard and really want to succeed and really want their kids to live better lives than them and aren’t sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth. In that respect, I don’t know how this moment is that different from the early 20th century.
     
    Where he goes wrong, I think, is to assume that Mexicans are the same as Jews and other Ellis Island immigrant groups. They just aren't.

    Besides a few cinematographers and the like, how many Mexicans have replaced how many upper class Americans at anything?

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Besides a few cinematographers and the like, how many Mexicans have replaced how many upper class Americans at anything?
     
    Indeed. I know that the only immigrants that I have to contend with in my field are White people from the UK. Apparently, Hispanic Mestizos just aren't all that interested in 18th century Anglo lit.

    As for those "Mexican" cinematographers:

    Emmanuel Lubezki Morgenstern, A.S.C., A.M.C. (Spanish pronunciation: [emaˈnwel luˈβeski]; born June 21, 1964) is a Mexican cinematographer. He sometimes goes by the nickname Chivo, which means "goat" in Spanish.[1][2] Lubezki has worked with many acclaimed directors, including Mike Nichols, Michael Mann, Joel and Ethan Coen, and frequent collaborators Terrence Malick, Alfonso Cuarón, and Alejandro González Iñárritu.[3]
    Lubezki is known for groundbreaking uses of natural lighting and continuous uninterrupted shots in cinematography. His work has been praised by audiences and critics alike, which earned him multiple awards, including eight Academy Award nominations for Best Cinematography. He won in this category three times, becoming the first person to do so in three consecutive years, for Gravity (2013), Birdman or (The Unexpected Virtue of Ignorance) (2014), and The Revenant (2015).
     

    Lubezki was born to a Jewish family in Mexico City, Mexico.[3][4] His father is actor and producer Muni Lubezki.[5] Lubezki studied film at Mexico’s Centro Universitario de Estudios Cinematográficos (CUEC), where he met future collaborators Alejandro González Iñárritu and Alfonso Cuarón.[3]
    Emmanuel is also a cousin of Daniel Lubetzky, founder of KIND LLC.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmanuel_Lubezki
  218. @Massimo Heitor

    David Frum has lost his mind over Putin, Trump, Le Pen and Brexit.
     
    A year ago, I was a big fan of David Frum. I bought and read one of his books, he was sort of a hero of mine.

    Frum's opposition to Trump is so intense and so extreme, that I've regularly second guessed myself and thought that maybe Trump really is this great danger and I missed it. In hindsight, I think Frum just lost his mind, or at least lost his cool and his reasonable nature over Trump and Brexit and Le Pen. Many of the things he is saying are just so completely unreasonable.

    I don’t really know why so many Jews are so hostile to Trump, other than they are afraid of white racial consciousness being awakened. I have a friend who is Jewish and her mother is afraid that Jews are going to be deported to concentration camps any day now.

    Read More
  219. @Jack d
    I'm sorry, read the quote - he's just NOT talking about the working class, he's talking about the spoiled upper classes:


    You can make a case that America has been great because every—I think John Adams said this—basically if you’re a free society, a capitalist society, after two or three generations of hard work everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever. Then, luckily, you have these waves of people coming in from Italy, Ireland, Russia, and now Mexico, who really want to work hard and really want to succeed and really want their kids to live better lives than them and aren’t sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth. In that respect, I don’t know how this moment is that different from the early 20th century.
     
    Where he goes wrong, I think, is to assume that Mexicans are the same as Jews and other Ellis Island immigrant groups. They just aren't.

    We’re going to have to disagree on this one. He begins his remarks: “Now to be totally honest, if things are so bad for the white working class don’t you want to get new Americans in who aren’t gonna be ….. ”

    Then he pauses and shrugs his shoulders. Then he shifts gears. Twice.

    Only then does he launch into his remarks that you quote:

    You can make a case that America has been great because every—I think John Adams said this—basically if you’re a free society, a capitalist society, after two or three generations of hard work everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever. Then, luckily, you have these waves of people coming in from Italy, Ireland, Russia, and now Mexico, who really want to work hard and really want to succeed and really want their kids to live better lives than them

    Now let’s go back to the original statement. I mean the one before he shifted gears, twice. He sets up the conditional, “if things are so bad for the white working class” — not Henry Adams the VIII, living on his floor in the Dakota clipping coupons so he doesn’t have to work. Then he says, “don’t you want to get new Americans in who aren’t gonna be …..” Who aren’t going to be what?

    Then after shifting gears and in effect calling himself out, he elaborates in the quote above. And since he left the issue of the status of the American working class up in the air, and how things were so bad for them, and therefore we should bring in new Americans who aren’t going to be …..

    How would you complete that sentence? My guess is that he was going to say “like the American working class.”

    So then he goes on in the para given above, which logically extends from his comments about the American working class and why we have to bring in all of these new Americans, and it’s only when he has to contrast these high energy new Americans who are going to save us that he starts talking about “aren’t sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth.” In other words, he copped out and pretended to contrast these new Americans with spoiled trust fund kids. Why? Probably because he knew that if he finished his sentence with what he actually believes about the white working class, i.e., fat, stupid, lazy, he would have gotten into trouble.

    Why do I think my interpretation is correct?

    #1 – The discussion was about the American working class, it was not about Reggie van Filthy Rich living a decadent lifestyle in Poughkeepsie.

    #2 – The decadent rich are not an issue to anyone.

    #3 – All of these “new Americans” aren’t going to have any impact on the lifestyle of the idle rich. They will however have a distinct impact on the lives of the American working class, which is the original context in which they were even brought up.

    But if you disagree still, we’re just going to have to leave it that way.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    It sounds like he was going to say something nasty about the white working class but then he realized how problematic it would be, so he quickly changed his comparison:

    I hope this thing isn’t being videotaped or ever shown anywhere.
     
    And then he realizes that it is, so that discretion is the better part of valor and he switches to talking about coupon clippers , who are safe to hate on.

    So have to give the guy credit for not putting himself on tape saying that the white working class deserves to be replaced.
  220. @Mr. Anon

    Look, to be totally honest, if things are so bad as you say with the white working class, don’t you want to get new Americans in?
     
    People who makes this argument seem to think that the displaced population is just going to disappear. As if, when those doughty, hard-working Mexicans appear, the lazy blacks and whites are just going to vanish.

    They'll all still be here, except now they won't even have jobs. And they'll have plenty of free time on their hands - time to rob your house, jack your car, cook meth, or any number of a hundred other pastimes.

    .........and I hope this thing isn’t being videotaped or ever shown anywhere. Whatever tiny, pathetic future I have is going to totally collapse.
     
    Let us all give wide circulation to Kristol's comments, so that his prediction about his career may come to pass.

    Also note Bill Kristol speaks of Mexican immigration in terms of a scenario that hasn’t been tried yet. When of course USA has had Mexican immigration long enough for us to look at how the 3, 4, and 5th generations are doing.

    They aren’t doing well. They are supplementing the dysfunction in the White and Black underclass not creating a working class renewal.

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  221. @Svigor
    The question I could never get Yan Shen to answer: how do we know you aren't actually pursuing yellow racial nationalism? How would we distinguish between yellow racial nationalism, and "cognitive elitism"?

    Sure, yellow racial nationalist going full-tilt would advocate completely open borders for western countries, vis-a-vis yellow immigration. But if he thought that a hopeless goal, he might settle for "cognitive elitism," in the hopes that a yellow elite could be imported into the west, with the ultimate goal of completely open borders for western countries, vis-a-vis yellow immigration.

    Or maybe he's just representing the interests of what he sees as his own class: smart east Asians. In this scenario, his "cognitive elitism" (smart people from everywhere, not just east Asia) would be cribbing from Jews, and their penchant for dressing up their own interests as universal interests.

    Reciprocity (they give us something, in return for giving them something) would seem to be the solution, but I've never seen Yan Shen suggest anything like that. More important, nothing like that is in the cards.

    Furthermore, the brain drain inherent in his misnamed "cognitive elitism" sows the seeds of destruction; we drain these countries of their cognitive capital, they turn into dystopias, they send huge waves of "refugees" to our shores demanding entry because we stripped them of their cognitive elite, and we "owe" them.

    I would assume he is pursuing yellow racial nationalism. Other than substituting the euphemism ‘cognitive elitism’ there is no apparent difference.

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  222. @SPMoore8
    We're going to have to disagree on this one. He begins his remarks: "Now to be totally honest, if things are so bad for the white working class don't you want to get new Americans in who aren't gonna be ..... "

    Then he pauses and shrugs his shoulders. Then he shifts gears. Twice.

    Only then does he launch into his remarks that you quote:

    You can make a case that America has been great because every—I think John Adams said this—basically if you’re a free society, a capitalist society, after two or three generations of hard work everyone becomes kind of decadent, lazy, spoiled—whatever. Then, luckily, you have these waves of people coming in from Italy, Ireland, Russia, and now Mexico, who really want to work hard and really want to succeed and really want their kids to live better lives than them
     
    Now let's go back to the original statement. I mean the one before he shifted gears, twice. He sets up the conditional, "if things are so bad for the white working class" -- not Henry Adams the VIII, living on his floor in the Dakota clipping coupons so he doesn't have to work. Then he says, "don't you want to get new Americans in who aren't gonna be ....." Who aren't going to be what?

    Then after shifting gears and in effect calling himself out, he elaborates in the quote above. And since he left the issue of the status of the American working class up in the air, and how things were so bad for them, and therefore we should bring in new Americans who aren't going to be .....

    How would you complete that sentence? My guess is that he was going to say "like the American working class."

    So then he goes on in the para given above, which logically extends from his comments about the American working class and why we have to bring in all of these new Americans, and it's only when he has to contrast these high energy new Americans who are going to save us that he starts talking about "aren’t sort of clipping coupons or hoping that they can hang on and meanwhile grew up as spoiled kids and so forth." In other words, he copped out and pretended to contrast these new Americans with spoiled trust fund kids. Why? Probably because he knew that if he finished his sentence with what he actually believes about the white working class, i.e., fat, stupid, lazy, he would have gotten into trouble.

    Why do I think my interpretation is correct?

    #1 - The discussion was about the American working class, it was not about Reggie van Filthy Rich living a decadent lifestyle in Poughkeepsie.

    #2 - The decadent rich are not an issue to anyone.

    #3 - All of these "new Americans" aren't going to have any impact on the lifestyle of the idle rich. They will however have a distinct impact on the lives of the American working class, which is the original context in which they were even brought up.

    But if you disagree still, we're just going to have to leave it that way.

    It sounds like he was going to say something nasty about the white working class but then he realized how problematic it would be, so he quickly changed his comparison:

    I hope this thing isn’t being videotaped or ever shown anywhere.

    And then he realizes that it is, so that discretion is the better part of valor and he switches to talking about coupon clippers , who are safe to hate on.

    So have to give the guy credit for not putting himself on tape saying that the white working class deserves to be replaced.

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