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From the Natural History Museum of London:

Are Neanderthals the same species as us?
By Chris Stringer
First published 1 October 2019

Museum human evolution expert Prof Chris Stringer, who has been studying Neanderthals and early modern humans for about 50 years, tackles the big question of whether we belong to the same species.

Everyone on the planet today, whatever they look like and wherever they live, is classified by biologists in the species Homo sapiens. But some commentators are now suggesting that the extinct Neanderthals with their heavy brows and big noses should be classified in our species as well.

So what defines our species, and who qualifies to join the club?

An expanding family tree

When I drew up a family tree covering the last one million years of human evolution in 2003, it contained only four species: Homo sapiens (us, modern humans), H. neanderthalensis (the Neanderthals), H. heidelbergensis (a supposedly ancestral species), and H. erectus (an even more ancient and primitive species). I have just published a new diagram covering the same period of time and it shows more than double the number of species, including at least four that were around in the last 100,000 years.

Scientists currently recognise as many as nine human species from the past one million years, including the recently discovered Homo luzonensis, which was announced in April 2019.

Our species name (which means ‘wise humans’ – though we might question the wisdom of that name today) was given to us by that great Swedish classifier Carl Linnaeus in 1758. In those pre-evolutionary times, species were usually considered to be fixed identities, created by God….

Even the three tiny bones of our middle ear, vital in hearing, can be readily distinguished from those of Neanderthals with careful measurement. In fact the shape differences in the ear bones are more marked, on average, than those that distinguish our closest living relatives – chimpanzees and gorillas – from each other. …

Complications come when we consider a particular definition of species – one which Linnaeus did not develop, but which he probably would have appreciated.

The biological species concept states that species are reproductively isolated entities – that is, they breed within themselves but not with other species. Thus all living Homo sapiens have the potential to breed with each other, but could not successfully interbreed with gorillas or chimpanzees, our closest living relatives.

On this basis, ‘species’ that interbreed with each other cannot actually be distinct species.

Critics who disagree that H. neanderthalensis and H. sapiens are two separate species can now cite supporting evidence from recent genetic research. This indicates that the two interbred with each other when they met outside Africa about 55,000 years ago. As a result, everyone today whose ancestors lived outside Africa at that time has inherited a small but significant amount of Neanderthal DNA, which makes up about 2% of their genomes.

I still believe they are distinct species

In the face of this seemingly decisive evidence, why do I cling to my belief that Neanderthals and Homo sapiens are distinct species?

Well, in my view the problem is not with ancient couplings between our ancestors and Neanderthals, but with the limitations of the biological species concept. …

In the U.S., it’s a multi-billion dollar question what is protected by the Endangered Species Act and what isn’t.

Back in 2001, I wrote about how the original developers of what is now the Trump National Los Angeles Golf Club ( after they were bankrupted by their 18th hole sliding into the Pacific Ocean) wrestled with the ambiguity of the Endangered Species Act.

Is the rare California Gnatcatcher different enough from the common Baja Gnatcatcher to be a separate species entitled to protection under the Endangered Species Act?

 
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  1. G. Poulin says:

    Before I put my reading glasses on I thought the title of the article was “Are Netherlanders the same species as us?” And I thought “Of course not. Why would anyone imagine that they are?”

    • LOL: Cato
    • Replies: @dvorak
  2. bomag says:

    Is the rare California Gnatcatcher different enough from the common Baja Gnatcatcher to be a separate species entitled to protection under the Endangered Species Act?

    Have no fear, California environmentalists will write the law to protect sub-species; animal ethnic divisions; and various mother nature nationalities to suite their whim when it comes time to use such distinctions as a club against their enemies.

    They use both color of skin AND content of character to judge.

  3. If race is just social construct, how long until species qualifies? You may object that there’s a scientific definition of species which is fixed and unchanging, but I would merely introduce you to the Current Year.

    All of those things like science and math which you thought were at least putatively objective are now known to be pernicious artefacts of white male supremacy. They can be and are being jettisoned in favor of the Wokistocracy, a new and better empire whose capital is Wakanda and whose hierarchy has no place for the likes of you!

    All that notwithstanding, my personal feeling is that I’m of the same species as only a vanishing minority of what’s called the human race.

    • Agree: Old Prude
    • Replies: @anon
    , @Logan
  4. Dtbb says:

    What about sub species like that tiger post of yours? What’s the difference?

  5. Altai says:

    Several papers have been written that suggest there were plenty of problems with the early admixed individuals. Maybe there were issues of recombination with plenty of novel inversions in both species and issues of methylation and regulatory variants.

    But really all a species or a thing needs to exist, is to exist… The mechanism by which that existence is perpetrated, either through reproductive incompatibility, social endogamy or physical barrier still produces the same result.

    Impacts of Neanderthal-introgressed sequences on the landscape of human gene expression
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6219754/

    Limits of long-term selection against Neandertal introgression
    https://www.pnas.org/content/116/5/1639

    Disentangling Immediate Adaptive Introgression from Selection on Standing Introgressed Variation in Humans
    https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/35/3/623/4705837

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
  6. Realist says:

    Our species name (which means ‘wise humans’ – though we might question the wisdom of that name today) was given to us by that great Swedish classifier Carl Linnaeus in 1758.

    Carl had reason to be optimistic in 1758…today not so much.

    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
  7. I’d like to say I’m a different species but I feel like a fraud when I say that.

  8. “But some commentators are now suggesting that the extinct Neanderthals with their heavy brows and big noses should be classified in our species as well.”

    Perhaps this is an activist flanking maneuver to ensure that SSA’s are hereby always going to be considered homo sapiens and that’s all there is to it. Blank Slatism on the offensive.

    And when do European descended whites get put on the endangered species list?

    • Agree: Gordo
  9. Are Neanderthals the same species as us?
    By Chris Stringer

    The guy is 71 but I wish him longevity.

    He certainly deserves to live to the day when his UBI is taken away because he’s found to have “too much Neanderthal admixture”.

  10. Kirt says:

    If a species is not a breeding community, what is it exactly? Not only is there Neanderthal DNA in modern humans (sub-Saharan Africans excepted) but anatomically modern human DNA has been discovered in Neanderthal remains. Same is true of other ancient peoples such as the Denisovans. These are all sub-species of pre-historic times and probably more will be discovered.

  11. MarkU says:

    The biological definition of the word species…

    A group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding. The species is the principal natural taxonomic unit, ranking below a genus and denoted by a Latin binomial, e.g. Homo sapiens.

    It is apparently accepted now that Homo Sapiens and Neandertals could interbreed and did so.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_genetics

    So we are arguing about how we are going to use a word. The whole discussion is exactly as productive as arguing about whether Pluto is a planet or not, or whether viruses are living things. I’m sure it filled some space in various publications and someone got paid for writing about it, that I suggest is the only practical consequence.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
  12. mikemikev says:

    The crucial questions are whether there is more genetic variation within groups, whether a single gene is found in all Neanderthals, and whether a random Neanderthal is more genetically similar to you than your next door neighbor. We need Angela Saini on the case.

    • LOL: ben tillman
  13. anon[331] • Disclaimer says:
    @HammerJack

    There is no scientific definition of species.
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/species/

  14. Is the rare California Gnatcatcher different enough from the common Baja Gnatcatcher to be a separate species entitled to protection under the Endangered Species Act?

    They are if it stops Donald Trump in any way from achieving anything.

    BTW, if we accept big-borowed and big-nosed Africans as part of Homo Sapiens, it only seems natural to include Neanderthals.

    • Replies: @nymom
  15. Vinnie O says:

    If you are interested in this topic at all, go see what the pros are debating:

    https://uncommondescent.com/

  16. I guess you start by saying two groups that can’t biologically interbreed must be different species.

    But that’s too narrow by itself since some animals that they we have to think of as different species can interbreed – like lions and tigers; grizzly and polar bears; some wolves and coyotes, etc.

    So when do you split interbreedable groups into separate species?

    It cant be enough that they are merely “reproductively isolated” in practice by geography or range. Otherwise, the Catalina bison herd and the rainbow trout in each separate lake would have to be there own species.

    So I guess you have to invent some sliding scale of (a) how different two groups are; and (b) how isolated from one another they are.

    These don’t lend themselves to bright line rules, so I suppose a separate species is kind of like pornograpy – hard to define, but “you know it when you see it.”

    • Replies: @Wilkey
  17. Wilkey says:

    But really all a species or a thing needs to exist, is to exist… The mechanism by which that existence is perpetrated, either through reproductive incompatibility, social endogamy or physical barrier still produces the same result.

    So because Alicia Vikander or that cute girl in my chemistry class refuses to sleep with me we belong to a different species? I mean I know I’ve been referred to as the missing link before, but I didn’t think they meant that literally.

    There has to be some genetic basis in the definition of a species. Barriers created by social endogamy may create temporary barriers, but they are relatively short-lived (a few thousand years is nothing). And physical barriers certainly help aide in speciation, or the rise of the different human races, but they can be quite temporary, too – especially for humans.

    The discovery that modern races were created, in part, by interbreeding with other human species has given SJW types a strong motive not to define Neanderthals and Denisovans as separate species. They want to make the genetic differences between Africans and Europeans to appear to be as small as possible. It doesn’t serve their purpose to say that Europeans, but not Africans, are descended from two separate species.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  18. Wilkey says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    These don’t lend themselves to bright line rules, so I suppose a separate species is kind of like pornograpy – hard to define, but “you know it when you see it.”

    So there has to be a “bright line” separating different races, or races don’t exist, but there doesn’t need to be a “bright line” between species.

    I suspect there are lots of Leftists (greens, especially) who want a very liberal definition of species in order to apply the Endangered Species Act as widely as possible but who vehemently proclaim that race does not exist.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    , @Buzz Mohawk
  19. If Neanderthals belong to a different species- so do African blacks. Just saying…

    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
  20. I think that interbreeding qualification is largely a laymans qualification.

    That business about different species not being able to breed does not hold up across taxonomy. It’s a rule of thumb at best. In lots of genuses different species can interbreed, and not just producing infertile results. Bees, for instance (killer bees are a hybrid of different bee species). Likewise canines (wolves and dogs are different species but can interbreed).

    And in the plant kingdom that rule is torn to shreds. Different species within the same genus can often interbreed, and sometimes as a freak occurrence species in totally different genuses or higher levels can still successfully interbreed.

  21. We Neanderthal-Americans can be grateful that our identity group is being well represented by Congressman Al Green.

  22. bjondo says:

    Not “US”
    but “others”.
    just look at pics of Yitshak Shamir,
    Ben gurion, Peres, Barak, Roseanne,
    Sharon, Begin, Kahane, G. Meir,
    M. Albright, Adam Schiff, Chuck Schumer,
    any of the squats now roaming Palestine
    or NYC, Weinswinewood.

    All around us.
    Fooled one and all
    by hiding in plain sight.

    By such shape shifting,
    took control.

  23. Jack D says:
    @Wilkey

    This is backwards – the traditionalist view is that the way you know if 2 creatures are from different species is whether they are capable of breeding with each other or not. Humans and gorillas can’t have babies, therefore they are from different species. Humans and Neanderthals (it turns out) can, therefore they are the same species according to the old definition. End of discussion.

    The modern view is that interbreeding is not the only test because a lot more animals are capable of interbreeding than you might imagine – for example you can mate up many kinds of big cat and produce ligers and tigons, etc. even though these never occur in nature. This does not mean that lions and tigers are not separate species. In lieu of the bright line test you have a lot more ambiguity. Under the old definition, the human races were always thought to be the same species because they were clearly capable of interbreeding but if that is no longer the test, then what is?

  24. The question arises: Who would be able to breed more successfully with a Neanderthal today, a modern human or a sub-Saharan African? One would guess the human, since he would have some Neanderthal DNA.

    Possess Neanderthal DNA:

    Do Not Possess Neanderthal DNA:

    • Agree: Steve in Greensboro
    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Corvinus
  25. Tiny Duck says:

    I know one thing

    white girls sure seem to like physical contact with Men of Colour!

    Why do you guys think that it is?

  26. @Jack D

    Neanderthal-modern human interbreeding occurred in nature.

  27. Ornithologists (and amateur birdwatchers) have endless fights about how to divide up birds into species versus subspecies (races). This fight is particularly fierce in North America where birds split after the last Ice Age into genetically isolated western and eastern races/species. Ornithologists call it “lumping” when two former separately-designated species are redefined as two races of the same species and “splitting” when two former races of the same designated species are re-defined as separate species. The grey-line cases are always a bit arbitrary it seems to this outside observer (I have no expertise on this).

    If ornithologists blindly used the simple-minded rule that the ability to cross-breed implied two birds had to be designated as in the same species, the number of bird “species” would plummet and the category would be a useless tool for understanding birdlife. That simple-minded rule is a century out of date.

    • Agree: jim jones
  28. ot: Rocktober is upon us. John Lennon’s death is coming up on its 39th anniversary; the Abbey Road sessions had ended less than 12 years earlier. And we’re still talking about it.

    With its cheery singles, theatrical medley and iconic cover, The Beatles’ 11th studio album, “Abbey Road,” holds a special place in the hearts of the band’s fans.

    But as the album celebrates its 50th anniversary, few may realize just how groundbreaking its tracks were for the band.

    In my forthcoming book, “Recording Analysis: How the Record Shapes the Song,” I show how the recording process can enhance the artistry of songs, and “Abbey Road” is one of the albums I highlight.

    Beginning with 1965’s “Rubber Soul,” The Beatles started exploring new sounds. This quest continued in “Abbey Road,” where the band was able to deftly incorporate emerging recording technology in a way that set the album apart from everything they had previously done.

    Prof. Wm. Moylan, UMass-Lowell
    https://theconversation.com/

    Let the boomer hating begin.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    , @anon
  29. @Wilkey

    I suspect there are lots of Leftists (greens, especially) who want a very liberal definition of species in order to apply the Endangered Species Act as widely as possible but who vehemently proclaim that race does not exist.

    That’s definitely true. I remember Greens arguing that each run of salmon in each different river should be considered different species under the act, based on some minor variation in their genetics. I don’t know how far they got with that. But the Greens are a litigious breed and they will argue for anything that pours sand in the gears of development.

    • Replies: @GermanReader2
  30. @Dtbb

    Where does « Ming » fit into all this?

    His epitaph reads: ‘Legendary NYC tiger, raised in apartment 5E in the Drew Hamilton Houses at 141st and Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Blvd.

    ‘In 2003, after three years of living in the apartment, Ming was rescued by the authorities and relocated to Noah’s Lost Ark Animal Sanctuary in rural Ohio where he lived out the rest of his days in comfort and peace.’

    The final line on the tombstone says Ming was ‘loved by many’.

    It all began in October 2003, when Yates was taken to a local hospital after he was attacked by Ming.

    Yates claimed that he had been savaged by a pit bull terrier, but doctors knew the bite marks were too big.

    Police were alerted and officers were sent to the man’s apartment building located at 141st Street and Adam Clayton Powell Jr Boulevard.

    They made their way up to apartment 5E where they were met by the most startling sight: a huge tiger peering from the fifth-floor window.

    The tiger was being kept inside the apartment along with a 4-foot-long alligator, named Al.

    That must’ve been one sweet smelling apartment! But hey no rats!!

    • Replies: @Alden
  31. @PiltdownMan

    I’d like to say I’m a different species but I feel like a fraud when I say that.

    That’s good. But just in case some people don’t get the reference:

    https://www.nhm.ac.uk/our-science/departments-and-staff/library-and-archives/collections/piltdown-man.html

  32. @Jack D

    Humans and gorillas can’t have babies … you’re trolling right?

  33. Looks like Neanderthal men and women retreated to Ireland and then blended in with homo sapiens.

  34. Anon[195] • Disclaimer says:

    The brain architecture, and resultant skull shape, of Neanderthals and modern humans is radically different and its not close. Of course they are different species.

    A primary reason for blurring that line is that certain (((segments))) of the population have the highest Neanderthal admixture of any group due to the fact that the primary Eurasian Neanderthal hives were in their region of origin (Eastern Anatolia and Israel).

    If Neanderthals are not considered to be the same species, then it follows that claims could be made that increasing Neanderthal admixture equates to being ever-less human.

    The same logic would apply across the modern races an according to increasing admixture from any hominid species. Asians have a high admixture of the East Asian Neanderthal and Denisovan hominid groups. Africans have ultra high admixture percentages from archaic hominid groups like Erectus, Heidelbergensis, and others.

    They are so afraid of being labeled less human than human that it is de rigueur for anthropologists to categorize early hominids from literally millions of years ago as human, with no caveats to that categorization. When in fact those “humans” would have been almost indistinguishable from modern apes to the eye of any layman.

    Modern mainstream anthropology is a farce. As such, nothing coming out of it should be taken seriously until the West and its science sees serious reform back to a state wherein politics does not fully control scientific conclusions. In other words, its not even worth getting upset over the fact that they now wish to conflate Neanderthals with humans. Its only worth ignoring until large reforms can be made.

    In fact, the more egregiously that the science prostitutes itself to politics the sooner that it will be obviously corrupt in the view of a growing segment of the populace and the sooner reform will come.

  35. Anon[254] • Disclaimer says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Africans have a high level of archaic hominid DNA admixture. This is what confers their stereotypical traits (blackness, violence, lower IQ, etc).

    Some Europeans have high levels of Neanderthal DNA, some have low levels, and some have virtually none or none.

    It doesn’t follow that those humans running the space program had significant levels of Neanderthal DNA compared to other groups.

    In fact, the higher IQ portions of Europe (the North) are those that have less Neanderthal DNA than the lower IQ portions (most of the South).

    You guys need to study Neanderthal skull shapes for a longer period to be able to pick out Neanderthal traits and distinguish them from Cro Magnon traits.

    Neanderthal traits are those that create populations that look like Southern Italians and Russian Jews.

    Relatively untainted Cro Magnon genetics are those that create populations that look like the Danish.

    Did those men running the space program, on the whole, have skull shapes that looked more like those of James Gandolfini and Andrew Dice Clay or more in-line with the skull shape of Daniel Craig (as one example):

    Neil Armstrong:

    Buzz Aldrin:

    Werner Von Braun:

    http://www.v2rocket.com/start/chapters/vb-new-019.jpg

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    , @Jack D
  36. Anon[148] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Neanderthals didn’t retreat from their primary locations, though some wandered, and they especially didn’t cross a distance of Ocean. They interbred with humans, likely through rape, and the full-blooded individuals were out-competed and died off.

    Southern (“Iberian”) Irish do have higher levels of Neanderthal DNA (and / or some other long lost hominid) but they didn’t contract it in Ireland.

    A red headed Neanderthal, assuming this imaginative reconstruction is close to correct, doesn’t mean that it mixed with the Irish in Ireland. Most Neanderthal mixing would have occurred at the primary locations of Neanderthal activity: in Eastern Anatolia and Israel. Plenty of Jews, including the Orthodox who likely largely haven’t mixed outside their gene pool in a couple of thousand years, have bright red hair.

    Its not even clear that Neanderthals are solely responsible for red hair.

  37. @PiltdownMan

    That’s a good one. Love your moniker, BTW.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
  38. @Dtbb

    What about sub species like that tiger post of yours?

    I really doubt Steve called “Cablinasian” a subspecies.

  39. OF COURSE H. neanderthalis and H. sapiens were different species.  They produced viable hybrids, but as we can see the hybrids could not function in either society… so they had to go off and make their own.  Apparently there were enough of them to do that.

    This argues that the African parent species wasn’t exactly H. sapiens sapiens either, and to judge from the on-going incompatibility of hybrids of Africans and non-Africans with either parent group (see C. Kaepernick and J. Smollett) sub-Saharan Africans should be classed as one or several distinct species of genus Homo.

    • Replies: @Thea
    , @Stan d Mute
  40. Jmaie says:

    IIRC it was the 16th through 18th holes which collapsed, due to insufficient drainage having been installed. Spectacular view of the channel islands if a bit windy at times. They didn’t want people walking into the waste areas and so if you hit a ball into one they’d give you a free replacement. I lost a good dozen balls that day, their ball of choice being the Pro V1.

  41. res says:
    @Jack D

    Most of the comments here seem to be eliding the important distinction between having fertile and infertile offspring.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
    , @Jack D
    , @utu
  42. Bannon says:

    I predict there will be woke resistance to classifying Neanderthals in the same species as Homo Sapiens, because if people are given a broad idea of what it means to be human, they may start to think about the vast differences between the different populations of humans. And that there might different meanginful categories with differences as significant as the ones with Neanderthals. Next thing you know they’re thinking about Great Danes and wiener dogs. And we can’t have people engaging in crimethink.

  43. Anon[381] • Disclaimer says:

    Ligers exist, therefore lions and tigers are the same species.

  44. J.Ross says:

    This guy diverges from the reasoning of the post but I’m not qualified to evaluate them:
    https://themandus.org/gallery/

  45. Are Bill and Hillary Clinton members of the Human Species?

    or

    Are Bill and Hillary Clinton members of the filthy fucking Cockroach Species?

    • LOL: JMcG
    • Replies: @Steve in Greensboro
  46. @Wilkey

    One could conjecture that if there is a push toward a more liberal definition of species, then it might be seen as another part of a longer, broader effort to expand what is acceptable and erase our boundaries, part of The Culture of Tolerance.

    1. Marriage was between a man and a woman, now it can be between anybody.
    2. Normal sex was between a man and a woman, now it can be between anybody.
    3. A man was a man, and a woman a woman, but now either can be either, or neither.

    4. The age of consent, whatever the specific number, has been a long-accepted concept in our culture and legal system, but there are people agitating to broaden consent to allow sex between adults and people too young to make that decision. Others argue for acceptance of incest.
    5. Cousin marriage used to be more common among our own kind, but fortunately fell off. We wonder if it too is incest, have taboos and some laws against it, while others urge us to tolerate and import cultures with high rates of this scientifically-proven harm.

    6. Nation states evolved after thousands of years of human travails into something resembling a functioning world community, but now we are deep in a powerful effort to erase our countries and turn humanity into a global mess.

    7. Races used to be obvious, now they are social constructs, and White people are persecuted for expressing any preference for their own, and are encouraged to forget that they even exist as a people with a history.
    8. Species exist but may be hard to define. Here we see a perhaps retrograde effort to broaden what it is for humans themselves. Will there come an effort to see all forms of life as indistinct manifestations of a continuum, a smear with no organizational boundaries?
    9. Will there soon be people suggesting that the taboo against bestiality is merely a cultural limit on freedom and that people should feel normal about having sex with other species?

    (Now don’t anyone “piss your incontinence pants.” This is only what others might wonder. I am merely observing and critiquing as an “insider/outsider.” If I have any details wrong, I sincerely apologize for not spending time researching them.)

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @Reg Cæsar
  47. To hell with the LA golf course. Anybody who supports the building of another golf course anywhere is a scumbag douchebag POS.

  48. Kronos says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    Pumpkin Person is excited about this new Neanderthal film coming out.

  49. Back in 2001, I wrote about how the original developers of what is now the Trump National Los Angeles Golf Club ( after they were bankrupted by their 18th hole sliding into the Pacific Ocean) wrestled with the ambiguity of the Endangered Species Act.

    How do you go from Neanderthals to Golf Courses so easily?

    I’ll try it.

    Neanderthals brings up golf courses which brings up Clint Eastwood and California golf courses and Eastwood’s new movie about that poor bastard fat guy who got blamed for blowing up something.

    From memory it was the corporate mass media and some arrogant government workers at the FBI and other arrogant people who blamed this fat stupid oaf for something he didn’t do. Our Teutonic ancestors were very clear that false accusations could phuck up the atmosphere in a tribe or a clan very quickly, so they made it clear to dopes that false accusations would be met with severe punishments. Show me the corpse and all that business.

    I think this director actor golfer geezer Clint Eastwood was planning on releasing this movie to coincide with the release of a report on the false accusations used by the government workers at the FBI and the government workers at the CIA and the rest of the government workers in the DEEP STATE to maliciously and illegally and unconstitutionally attack and harm a political candidate and then an elected candidate named Donald John Trump.

    The corporate mass media colluded with the evil and corrupt government workers at the upper reaches of the FBI and the CIA to attack and harm the over 60 million American citizens — including this writer — who voted for and supported Donald John Trump for president.

    That damn John Brennan baby boomer CIA boob is a crooked crook of the worst sort and it bothers me that that damn boob Brennan has Irish ancestry like many of us do. I have an Irish ancestor who fought in the American Secessionary War from the British Empire and this damn Brennan CIA bastard doesn’t have any colonial American ancestry at all. Stop making the Irish people look bad, Brennan, you damn CIA government worker bastard oaf you!

    If you notice I didn’t even call CIA government worker Leprechaun Baby Boomer Brennan a Leprechaun in my comment. I should get some credit for that!

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
  50. @Buzz Mohawk

    Is the rare California Gnatcatcher different enough from the common Baja Gnatcatcher to be a separate species entitled to protection under the Endangered Species Act?

    We need a gnatcatcher wall!

    Were Fred and Barney Neanderthal? Wilma and Betty don’t appear to be.

  51. @Tiny Duck

    “I know one thing

    white girls sure seem to like physical contact with Men of Colour!

    Why do you guys think that it is?”

    Tiny Dick, I’ve told you before that it’s usually only land whales who go with ‘groids.

  52. @Anon

    Oh look, it’s the “Jews are Neanderthals” retard.

    Jews actually have very low Neanderthal ancestry, as do Iberians. The highest Neanderthal ancestry is found in Chipewyans, Eskimo, Atayal, and Bougainville Islanders.

    East Asians also have very little Denisovan ancestry, which also peaks in Bougainville.

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
    , @Anon
  53. Art Deco says:

    Biology isn’t my subject, but I’d suggest that the ability to interbreed is a satisfactory demarcation. Beyond that, it’s what a co-worker once said to me: “All classification schemes are ultimately arbitrary. The point is, can you learn them?”.

    Just my $0.02

    • Replies: @Thea
  54. @Tiny Duck

    It is very rare to see an attractive white woman with a negro man unless the negro is wealthy. (That wealth is almost always acquired by selling drugs, producing horrible music, or being a professional athlete.)

    I do see a lot of fat, ugly, stupid, tattooed white women with negroes. I am happy to see them boiled out of the white gene pool.

  55. Are Neanderthals the Same Species as Us?

    As the saying puts it, that explains uncle Roger. Must add: and many other people.

  56. @Buzz Mohawk

    Oops– that previous comment was meant for the article itself, not a reply to you. This one is:

    Marriage was between a man and a woman, now it can be between anybody.

    No it can’t. Consanguinity and bigamy bans now apply to these “equal marriages”. Why they do is inexplicable, because the rationale is now absent.

    When Minnesota adopted marriage equality by legislation rather than court order, the sex-specific consanguinity rules were rewritten to be “gender-neutral”. Eg, that a man couldn’t marry his mother or sister was now a person (or whatever) can’t marry a parent or sibling.

    How daft is that? The previous language was adequate. A father-son union is no different from any other same-sex union as far as the rest of us are concerned.

    As far as same-sex incest goes, the laws of Iowa make that impossible, and the more explicit ones of Wisconsin allow for it. Minnesota’s are ambiguous.

    • Replies: @Wilkey
  57. David says:

    According to Svante Paabo, there is “no one running around with Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA.” Somewhere, I think, he speculates that maybe only male Neanderthal Human hybrids were fertile. That sort of suggests some distance between the species, if obviously not a complete barrier.

  58. Biology isn’t my subject, but I’d suggest that the ability to interbreed is a satisfactory demarcation.

    Not so fast. A horse can breed with a donkey, but because they are different species, the offspring (mules) are sterile. A wolf can breed with a dog and produce fertile offspring, because they are the same species, although their behavior is quite different, and some people would argue that for that reason they are not the same species.

    For example, a wolf must be able to hunt and kill enough prey to survive, which hardly any dogs can do, so a pup born to a female wolf and fathered by a dog probably isn’t going to make it in the wild.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    , @Buzz Mohawk
  59. @Anon

    The brain architecture, and resultant skull shape, of Neanderthals and modern humans is radically different and its not close. Of course they are different species.

    A primary reason for blurring that line is that certain (((segments))) of the population have the highest Neanderthal admixture of any group due to the fact that the primary Eurasian Neanderthal hives were in their region of origin (Eastern Anatolia and Israel).

    If Neanderthals are not considered to be the same species, then it follows that claims could be made that increasing Neanderthal admixture equates to being ever-less human.

    So , I gather the Ashkenazim are native to Israel; Is that the upshot of your analysis?

  60. @res

    Most of the comments here seem to be eliding the important distinction between having fertile and infertile offspring.

    The question here is whether 100% are infertile. It’s possible there’s a spectrum.

    • Replies: @res
  61. Art Deco says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    That they are sterile means the line ends there. Ergo, no species of breeding pairs.

  62. Indians apparently don’t see Koreans as quite the same kind of Asian as they are. A tiny crack in the coalition of the fringes:

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2019/09/30/lawsuit-intels-indian-managers-discriminated-against-korea-born-american/

  63. Jack D says:
    @res

    We really don’t know but some of the guesswork is that human-Neanderthal crosses were genetically shaky and a lot of them may not have lived to reproductive age or been capable of reproduction but that some did or we wouldn’t have any Neanderthal DNA and we do. Again the binary model of can or cannot reproduce or even can or cannot produce fertile offspring doesn’t tell the whole story. The reality is filled with shades of gray and the early human population was so small and so filled with bottlenecks that even a few Neanderthal/human hybrids might have ended up contributing DNA to every European, especially if the Neanderthal traits gave them some survival advantage over unmixed humans.

  64. Anon[381] • Disclaimer says:

    Biology isn’t my subject, but I’d suggest that the ability to interbreed is a satisfactory demarcation.

    It’s actually an especially terrible demarcation when we are talking about anthropology.
    Species A can interbreed with species B that is 10,000 years older and 1000 miles to the east. But they are the same species because they can interbreed.

    Species B can breed with species C that is another 10,000 years older so they are the same species.

    Species A and C can’t interbreed. But they are the same species because A=B=C.

    The definition of species is arbitrary. The boundaries will always be fuzzy. They will move based on politics and what is fashionable in scientific circles.

  65. J.Ross says:

    OT — Joker — The government’s continuing efforts to grab guns, censor free speech, and demonize harmless white nerds using the “incel” forcememe and the “Joker” and “Cuck” movies.
    And yes, some virgin alt-right imbecile did mis-spell “government.” What a tool.

    …Anonymous
    10/03/19(Thu)15:57:36 No.121932324
    62 KB
    62 KB JPG
    First of all, I’m sorry. I’m sorry for all of this. I’m sorry for all that’s gonna happen. It kinda makes me feel bad about what I am gonna do. But I was also innocent you know. I didn’t deserve all of this shit. Just because you fags were the only ones that stood by my side and most of the times understood what I felt, I decided to post this thing. It’s ok if you think this is just retarded trolling. I would too if I were you. But I’m actually gonna do it.

    If you’re in Charlotte NC, dont go to AMC Carolina Pavilion 22 tonight. I love you guys. You’ll hear about me in a few hours. Good Night.
    … … …
    …Anonymous
    10/03/19(Thu)15:58:26 No.121932348
    233 KB
    233 KB JPG
    >>121932324 (OP) #
    [Depart from here rapidly] journalists
    …Anonymous
    10/03/19(Thu)15:58:49 No.121932358
    >>121932324 (OP) #

    Wow the 20th joker thread nice forced meme you CIA [tax-wasters]
    … … …
    …Anonymous
    10/03/19(Thu)16:01:40 No.121932480
    MODS MODS MODS
    …Anonymous
    10/03/19(Thu)16:02:06 No.121932501
    >>121932324 (OP) #
    This one’s pretty specific, wouldn’t be surprised if you get a knock on the door.
    …Anonymous
    10/03/19(Thu)16:02:14 No.121932505
    Dear governme[n]t, thank you for doing nothing about illegal aliens or criminal Democrats or Muslim terrorists or leftist roadblockers or black thugs, but finding the time in your no doubt busy day to do come here and set up false flags for your gungrabbing and your censorship[.]

    Brief note: the government is doing a little belated bit about big pharma and is starting to look at big tech. Thanks! Good job, government! Be more like that!

  66. Dave2 says:

    An easy way to end this argument would be to CRISPR the Neanderthals back to life. It’s axiomatic that all living hominids belong to the one species Homo sapiens, and anyone who suggests otherwise is a vile racist.

    By the standards applied to most other life forms, taxonomists could subdivide humanity into 4-12 species, but they refuse to do so for religious reasons.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  67. @Art Deco

    Not talking about horses specifically here, but in general.

    First, it isn’t all or nothing. Some are mostly sterile or usually sterile but not necessarily completely sterile. In the case of mules, apparently all males but only most females are sterile. Which means that some female mules are occasionally not sterile.

    Also, you may run into situations where A can breed with B and B can breed with C but A cannot breed with C.

    http://messybeast.com/genetics/hybrid-equines.htm

    So where is the criteria is a fertile hybrid is a rare as hell freezing over but still sometimes happens? Should horses, donkeys and zebras all be reclassified as the same species if they can be made to hybridize and are fertile once? Or 15 times?

    A big issue with hybridization is chromosome count. Where the number of chromosomes don’t match up symmetrically you generally have issues. But with plants, there is this thing called colchicine, which produces polyploidy. This is theorized that it can happen in nature sometimes too, and can make things that normally should never hybridize successfully hybridize.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colchicine

    This polyploidy is sometimes theorized to be the origin of a lot of plant species as hybrids of things that shouldn’t ever have hybridized successfully. By which I mean it is sometimes (although very rarely) possible to hybridize plants that not only aren’t the same species, but aren’t even in the same genus or family. Colchicine can fix chromosome count issues and make non-symmetrical genes symmetrical by doubling them all and pairing them with themselves.

    The bigger issue is you’d have to rewrite all the taxonomy. No big deal, that actually happens all the time (it is mostly arbitrary). But you’d have to reclassify the taxonomy of thousands of genus. Plants in general. Bees. Canines. Felines. Equines. Ursines. Etc. None of the taxonomy is laid out on this fertile interbreeding rule, which I think is way fuzzier than you think it is. Polar bears and grizzly bears would be the same species. Meanwhile panda bears are having fertility problems within their species. Domestic dogs and various wolves, and coyotes would all be 1 species.

  68. OFF TOPIC

    Greta Thunberg Is Still Angry About The African Population Explosion Chart:

  69. utu says:
    @res

    Modern humans diverged from Neanderthals some 600,000 years ago – and a new study shows the Y chromosome might be what kept the two species separate.

    It seems we were genetically incompatible with our ancient relatives – and male fetuses conceived through sex with Neanderthal males would have miscarried. We knew that some cross-breeding between us and Neanderthals happened more recently – around 100,000 to 60,000 years ago.

    Neanderthal genes have been found in our genomes, on X chromosomes, and have been linked to traits such as skin colour, fertility and even depression and addiction. Now, an analysis of a Y chromosome from a 49,000-year-old male Neanderthal found in El Sidrón, Spain, suggests the chromosome has gone extinct seemingly without leaving any trace in modern humans.

    This could simply be because it drifted out of the human gene pool or, as the new study suggests, it could be because genetic differences meant that hybrid offspring who had this chromosome were infertile – a genetic dead end.

    Read more: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2083381-missing-y-chromosome-kept-us-apart-from-neanderthals/#ixzz61KF19c2J

  70. @Art Deco

    Here we go (if you buy any of this, I haven’t bothered to double check any of it).

    https://modernfarmer.com/2014/01/10-farm-animal-hybrids-didnt-know-existed/

    English settlers in the American south noticed genetic mixes between American Bison and domestic cattle as far back as 1749, but it would be 100 years until the first intentional hybrids and more than two hundred until beefalo entered the mainstream of American culture. That decade, a peak 6,000 ranchers agreed to raise the fertile hybrid.

    Dzo are the Tibetan cross between yaks and cattle. Like mules, the male version of the hybrid is infertile, but female dzo, or dzomo, are fertile, allowing for the “back breeding” of three-quarter mixes.

    Camels weigh six times as much as llamas, so suffice it to say that artificial insemination was the only option for researchers in the United Arab Emirates. They succeeded in 1998

    No word on if that one was fertile, probably not. Or the next one, but still:

    Millions of years of evolutionary separation and a mismatched number of chromosomes wasn’t enough to stop one goat at farm in Northern Germany. He jumped a fence for a romantic encounter with a sheep. Usually, such cross-breeding result in nothing or a stillborn, but farmer Klaus Exsternbrink watched his sheep give birth to a perfectly healthy geep named Lisa

    A and B, B and C, but not A and C. B is a pheasant, A and C are turkey and chicken.

    Birds have a much easier time crossing species lines than mammals, making avian hybrids much more common than mammalian hybrids. Some notable combinations include pheasants and chickens, pheasants and turkeys, and Canada geese mating with just about every other type of geese. Strangely, no one has been able to successfully breed a chicken and a turkey.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  71. @Hypnotoad666

    That’s definitely true. I remember Greens arguing that each run of salmon in each different river should be considered different species under the act, based on some minor variation in their genetics. I don’t know how far they got with that. But the Greens are a litigious breed and they will argue for anything that pours sand in the gears of development.

    That tactic can backfire spectacularly, if you deal with a mixed population. In Germany, they wanted to rebuild the train station of a major city. The Greens did everything they could to prevent the project and found some rare lizards in the rail track near the train station. They first rejoiced, because that would have made the project a lot harder to get approved. Then DNA-tests were done on some of the lizards: It turned out that these were not pure German lizards, but rather a mix between German and Italian lizards. The fact that the lizards were mixed-race instead of pure German turned them from an endangered species, that had to be protected, to an invasive species, that had to be exterminated.
    (It is actually quite funny, that the views that environmentalists have about animals and plants are the complete opposite of the views they have about humans)

    • Agree: Dtbb
    • LOL: Alden
    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
  72. @David

    No, the male hybrids were infertile. We have no Neanderthal mtDNA because it was primarily Neanderthal males breeding with modern human females (a similar scenario happened with Denisovans)

    • Replies: @David
  73. @Jack Armstrong

    FWIW, Lennon’s birthday was 9 October … he was gunned down on December 8th.

    Abbey Road, like the White Album, was a fine example of how the individual Beatles were the best back-up band they could hope to find.

    I mean, Klaus Voorman was a good bassist for Lennon, but McCartney was much more adept in filling in Lennon’s gaps. Jim Keltner was a good technical drummer, but Ringo was much more in tune with the beat the Beatles wanted to put out.

  74. @Dave2

    An easy way to end this argument would be to CRISPR the Neanderthals back to life. It’s axiomatic that all living hominids belong to the one species Homo sapiens, and anyone who suggests otherwise is a vile racist.

    Dude, it would be more rayciss to CRISPR the Neanderthals back to life, as you’d immediately cut off Tiny Duck’s and his cohort’s access to white women.

  75. Crank says:

    I feel a deeper familial bond to Neanderthals than I do to pygmies or Australian Aborigines, even though I’ve never seen one

    • Replies: @Daniel H
  76. anon[402] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack Armstrong

    ot: Rocktober is upon us. John Lennon’s death is coming up on its 39th anniversary;

    More importantly, what did John Lennon ever have to say about Emmett Till?

  77. @David

    I read a hypothesis somewhere that Neanderthal skulls couldn’t make it through a Cro-Magnon birth canal, so the admixture only came via Cro-Magnon men and Neanderthal women.

  78. @Bardon Kaldian

    YOU’RE NOTHING BUT A CROATIAN NAZI

    No, actually not. Your views are much more wishy washy, like nearly all those who have come of age in the 21st Century.

  79. Art Deco: “Biology isn’t my subject, but I’d suggest that the ability to interbreed is a satisfactory demarcation. Beyond that, it’s what a co-worker once said to me: “All classification schemes are ultimately arbitrary. The point is, can you learn them?”.”

    As some other commenters point out above, separate species can successfully interbreed, and often do, particularly under artificial conditions. It’s been known for hundreds of years that even creatures in different genera, such as sheep and goats, can successfully be interbred and produce fertile offspring. The offspring of such unions usually have some form of reduced fertility, but are not completely sterile. Even a mule, an exceptionally sterile cross between horse and ass, can occasionally produce a foal.

    Also, many creatures don’t reproduce sexually, so interbreeding is useless as a general definition. As it turns out, there is no single definition of species that will work for all organisms, and as you might imagine, when man attempts to classify himself, he often makes exceptions. The biological species concept (BSC), which stressed reproductive compatibility, was developed by Ernst Mayr and Theodosius Dobzhansky. It seems to have captured the popular imagination, becoming ascendant since WWII (the second great white war against racism), and has been used often to refute those horrible reactionary “racists” who have the temerity to suggest that negroes and whites might in fact be different species. This shows the influence of a culture shaped by Christianity upon science. Christianity, with its fanatic insistence upon the equality of “souls”, inexorably tends to trivialize race. Science isn’t immune from the tumult of culture, including such religious nonsense. Consequently we even see self-proclaimed atheists such as Richard Dawkins subscribing to the Christian myth of the imaginary “Brotherhood of Man”. It’s this kind of thinking that has given rise to the scientific orthodoxy of lumping all the various human races, even Neanderthals, into Homo sapiens.

    • Agree: ben tillman
  80. @GermanReader2

    Then DNA-tests were done on some of the lizards: It turned out that these were not pure German lizards, but rather a mix between German and Italian lizards. The fact that the lizards were mixed-race instead of pure German turned them from an endangered species, that had to be protected, to an invasive species, that had to be exterminated.
    (It is actually quite funny, that the views that environmentalists have about animals and plants are the complete opposite of the views they have about humans)

    That is funny.

    Extreme environmentalism seems to be a religion that wants to get back to some sort of pre-industrial Garden of Eden reflected in the status quo ante of about 1750 A.D. or thereabouts. So it’s totally backward looking. They also want to maintain biodiversity of separate species.

    But when it comes to humans leftists believe the status quo ante was bad and they want to eliminate biodiversity by mixing all the (sub)species together.

  81. This chap (French rugby player Sebastien Chabal) looks pretty Neanderthal yet has successfully bred with a human female.

  82. @The Alarmist

    FWIW, Lennon’s birthday was 9 October … he was gunned down on December 8th.

    Round about next Inauguration Day, Lennon will have been dead as long as he was alive. Kurt Cobain, too, a few months later.

    Jim Keltner was a good technical drummer, but Ringo was much more in tune with the beat the Beatles wanted to put out.

    Elsewhere in the Empire, Robbie Bachman said he wasn’t the best drummer in the world, but he was the best drummer in the world for BTO. Knowing the territory helps. (Especially in Manitoba.)

    Familiarity is more important than we give it credit for. Baseball should go back to eight-team leagues, four instead of two, so they can see everyone 22 times again.

    but McCartney was much more adept in filling in Lennon’s gaps

    That goes double, or manifold, for songwriting as well. In both directions. Innate talent alone can’t explain why what they wrote apart is as forgettable as what they wrote together (or in the other’s vicinity) is memorable.

    • Agree: The Alarmist
  83. @Realist

    Swedish? Was he a muslem?

    • Replies: @Realist
  84. @David

    According to Svante Paabo, there is “no one running around with Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA.”

    However, Pääbo himself is running around with Nobelist DNA:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sune_Bergstr%C3%B6m

    Another notable Svante is Svante Thunberg. Yep, little Gretling’s dad. Her second name is Tintin. No kidding.

    https://www.whosdatedwho.com/dating/greta-thunberg

    Incredible claims Tintin was in fact a girl sends web crazy

    • LOL: mikemikev
    • Replies: @David
    , @Lot
  85. Logan says:
    @HammerJack

    The map is not the territory. Taxonomy appears to be a human compulsion, but the boxes we put things into do not necessarily represent the real world.

    • Agree: dfordoom
  86. Flemur says:

    You mess with the definition of my species and you mess with the whole trailer court!

  87. Kronos says:
    @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

    Next victim group: The direct descendants of Neanderthals.

    Those old insurance commercials about “it’s so easy a caveman can do it?” Well that’s just racist and calls for a class-action lawsuit!

  88. guest says:

    I remember learning in elementary school that we are Homo sapiens sapiens, not merely Homo sapiens. And that there are other subspecies within the Homo umbrella, including Neanderthals. That may or may not be OfficiaScience, but this dumb-dumb writes as though it’s something new.

    By the way, if you’re gonna he the 22nd trolling person to make the “sapiens not so wise, huh?” joke, don ‘t do “not so salient is humanity in the Current Year, har-har.”

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  89. @Jonathan Mason

    That is a wonderful video. Thank you.

  90. Travis says:

    So, why are Cro-Magnons not seen as a separate species anymore?

    Cro-Magnon was once considered a sub-species. In the 19th century, scientists compared Cro-Magnon skeletons to Neanderthal skeletons and decided they were different enough from the Neanderthals, and from us, to give them a different name and classify them as a sub-species. This was the common consensus until about 25 years ago.

    Cro-Magnons are are now called Early Modern Humans or Anatomically Modern Humans–people who lived in Europe about 60,000-10,000 years ago. Cro-Magnons were the result of a interbreeding between migrating Sapiens and Neanderthals and are the result of inter-species mating.

  91. jamie b. says:
    @David

    I thought that female neanderthals couldn’t cross with male sapiens. But yes, that seems to me like a good reason to consider sapiens/neanderthals to be separate sub-species.

  92. @anon

    No, Lennon didn’t say anything about St Emmett; in contrast, McCartney at least sang the vocal on the Beatles’ cover of the tribute song “Till There Was You”.

  93. @Lars Porsena

    Camels weigh six times as much as llamas, so suffice it to say that artificial insemination was the only option for researchers in the United Arab Emirates. They succeeded in 1998

    On hump day?

    farmer Klaus Exsternbrink watched his sheep give birth to a perfectly healthy geep named Lisa

    Ewe’re kidding, right? Or half-kidding, as it were.

    Strangely, no one has been able to successfully breed a chicken and a turkey.

    Though occasionally they’re running mates.

  94. Sean says:

    The content of their character

    https://i0.wp.com/www.filthymonkeymen.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/neanderthal_hunting1.jpg?zoom=2.625&resize=197%2C263&ssl=1

    OT

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-2017488/Video-Black-police-officer-fixes-Guygers-hair-guilty-verdict.html

    Video: Black police officer fixes Guyger’s hair after guilty verdict
    Amber Guyger was found guilty for the shooting of neighbor Botham Jean. After the guilty verdict, a black police officer is seen comforting her by fixing her hair.

  95. res says:
    @Johann Ricke

    The question here is whether 100% are infertile. It’s possible there’s a spectrum.

    I agree with that. Has anyone ever seen any research on that topic? Has there ever been a non-sterile mule? I just checked and despite the difference in the number of chromosomes between horses and donkeys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mule#Fertility

    Mules and hinnies have 63 chromosomes, a mixture of the horse’s 64 and the donkey’s 62. The different structure and number usually prevents the chromosomes from pairing up properly and creating successful embryos, rendering most mules infertile.

    There are no recorded cases of fertile mule stallions. A few mare mules have produced offspring when mated with a purebred horse or donkey.[17][18] Herodotus gives an account of such an event as an ill omen of Xerxes’ invasion of Greece in 480 BC: “There happened also a portent of another kind while he was still at Sardis,—a mule brought forth young and gave birth to a mule” (Herodotus The Histories 7:57), and a mule’s giving birth was a frequently recorded portent in antiquity, although scientific writers also doubted whether the thing was really possible (see e.g. Aristotle, Historia animalium, 6.24; Varro, De re rustica, 2.1.28).

    As of October 2002, there had been only 60 documented cases of mules birthing foals since 1527.[18] In China in 2001, a mare mule produced a filly.[19] In Morocco in early 2002 and Colorado in 2007, mare mules produced colts.[18][20][21] Blood and hair samples from the Colorado birth verified that the mother was indeed a mule and the foal was indeed her offspring.[21]

    A 1939 article in the Journal of Heredity describes two offspring of a fertile mare mule named “Old Bec”, which was owned at the time by the A&M College of Texas (now Texas A&M University) in the late 1920s. One of the foals was a female, sired by a jack. Unlike its mother, it was sterile. The other, sired by a five-gaited Saddlebred stallion, exhibited no characteristics of any donkey. That horse, a stallion, was bred to several mares, which gave birth to live foals that showed no characteristics of the donkey.[22]

    So almost certainly a spectrum for less significant differences.

  96. Sean says:

    The content of their character is unknown, but they were not at tough as they looked

    How Neanderthals met a grisly fate: devoured by humans They could not run jump throw or sew. Furry as bears.

    OT

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-2017488/Video-Black-police-officer-fixes-Guygers-hair-guilty-verdict.html

    Video: Black police officer fixes Guyger’s hair after guilty verdict
    Amber Guyger was found guilty for the shooting of neighbor Botham Jean. After the guilty verdict, a black police officer is seen comforting her by fixing her hair.

  97. @S. M. Coulton

    The highest Neanderthal ancestry is found in…Bougainville Islanders.

    Wat

    • Replies: @Autochthon
  98. Is the Florida Man who keeps popping up in the news a different species?

  99. Yngvar says:
    @Jonathan Mason

    He looks a bit like Orange Man Bad.

  100. @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

    Neanderthal women would not touch Rep. Green with a 10 foot barge pole.

  101. @War for Blair Mountain

    Hey, hey, hey. No reason to libel cockroaches like that. No doubt you’ll be hearing from the ACLU (American Cockroach Liberation Union).

  102. @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)

    And let us not forget the important contributions of actors Pete Postlethwaite and Ron Perelman.

  103. BB753 says:
    @Sean

    The converse: a white female police officer stroking a black female convict’s hair would have made headlines! “Afro hair be holy! “

  104. @The Anti-Gnostic

    Never let your daughter date a neanderthal.

  105. @The Alarmist

    John Lennon deserved to be in jail for murder……

  106. @Anon

    Ligers exist, therefore lions and tigers are the same species.

    Therefore species are social constructs.
    Therefore lions and tigers are social constructs.
    Therefore it is meaningless to talk about lions and tigers.

  107. Here’s a fairly accurate representation of Man’s Family Tree:

    National Lampoon

    • LOL: Kronos, Autochthon
  108. @Sean

    There is no evidence for Neanderthals having been “devoured by humans” and that is not what they looked like.

    • Replies: @Sean
  109. Dumbo says:

    According to certain theories, people with Neanderthal admixture are the only ones who fully qualify as human. Google “edenism” or check out Aeoli Pera’s blog, I like it.

  110. Daniel H says:
    @Crank

    I feel a deeper familial bond to Neanderthals than I do to pygmies or Australian Aborigines, even though I’ve never seen one

    I understand your point, and I believe that I feel the same way, but we are reacting to idealized, artistic representations of what we think Neanderthals were like. I have never met a pygmy or aborigine either but the representations of them through media give a fairly good impression of what they are like. Neanderthals in the flesh would maybe strike us as so different that the first impulse they would strike in us would be to kill them.

  111. David says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    I’m glad to have the occasion to mention that I dismantled and rebuilt the tile roof of the house that Herge, author of the Tintin comics, took refuge in after the German conquest of Belgium. The house is near St Julian and Issoir, I can’t remember just where. One of the highlights of my life.

  112. Ron Perlman is obviously Neanderthal. Just look:

    • Replies: @Anon
  113. @The Anti-Gnostic

    If that was true, H. sap sap would have almost exclusively Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA.

    The opposite is true.

    • Agree: Thea
  114. David says:
    @S. M. Coulton

    Thanks. That sounds more likely.

  115. It is easy enough to check if Neanderthals are still with us.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occipital_bun

    “An occipital bun is a prominent bulge or projection of the occipital bone at the back of the skull. It is important in scientific descriptions of classic Neanderthal crania. While common among many of humankind’s ancestors, primarily robust relatives rather than gracile, the protrusion is rare in modern Homo sapiens.”

    It is more often found in Scandinavians, North Asians and early modern Europeans but not current modern European (too much African admixtures).

    If you have two on both side of the skull then you are Princess Leia 🙂

  116. @Altai

    Several papers have been written that suggest there were plenty of problems with the early admixed individuals. Maybe there were issues of recombination with plenty of novel inversions in both species and issues of methylation and regulatory variants.

    But really all a species or a thing needs to exist, is to exist… The mechanism by which that existence is perpetrated, either through reproductive incompatibility, social endogamy or physical barrier still produces the same result.

    Exactly.

    There is no Neanderthal mtDNA in the human genome–at least that’s my understanding as of Oct 2019. This suggests either:
    — human male / Neanderthal-female offspring were sterile, or at least sterile females
    — or that the Neanderthal mtDNA was “problematic” or distinctly inferior in humans
    — or that the couplings were so rare that by random chance the Neanderthal mtDNA got washed out.
    All of these possibilities basically say “separate species”.

    I’m happy to have these ancient adventurers in my lineage, in my DNA, but that doesn’t mean they are my same species.

    • Replies: @DRA
  117. Kronos says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    Wow, I had this poster during my childhood years. Nice post!

  118. This is the wrong question.

    The question is whether Democrats are correctly classified in the species Gorilla, the species Pan (chimps and bonobos) or whether they are best classified as Caenorhabditis elegans, given their (in)ability to learn.

  119. Lot says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    “ According to Neanderthal Man: In Search of Lost Genomes, Pääbo is openly bisexual – he assumed he was gay until he met Linda Vigilant, an American primatologist whose “boyish charms” attracted him. Currently, they are married and raising a son and a daughter together in Leipzig.”

    She looks pretty normal to me.

    • Replies: @Sean
  120. Sean says:
    @S. M. Coulton

    Pre PC

    Their inner ear and shoulder structure shows their clumsiness at the non-mechanically aided throwing which was the summit of their achievements . When both humans and Neanderthals used thrusting spears they would be dangerous prey, but once humans developed spear throwers Neanderthals made easy targets,

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-7528565/Neanderthals-perished-human-ancestors-better-weapons-study-claims.html

    https://i0.wp.com/www.filthymonkeymen.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/neanderthal_hunting1.jpg?zoom=2.625&resize=197%2C263&ssl=1

    Apart from the face which is too gorilla like for cold weather adapted apes, they looked far more like that reconstruction than any other one you have seen I can assure you. Yes, furry because they lived in ice age Europe without tailored clothing. Hunters often bring home baby animals, and I suppose Neanderthals kept as a pet, but maturing far faster than any human, were how humans and Neanderthal genes mixed.

    • Replies: @S. M. Coulton
  121. Sean says:
    @Lot

    Neanderthals’ high frequency of head trauma shows they beat the crap out each other a la Chagnon’s axe fight (ie they fought for access to females). So they were selected to be bull-headed oafs and not the slightest bit gay, that is why they had no Pääbos to invent better weapons.

  122. @Charles Pewitt

    If you notice I didn’t even call CIA government worker Leprechaun Baby Boomer Brennan a Leprechaun in my comment. I should get some credit for that!

    I,for one, have long admired your restraint.

  123. There’s no doubt that if they discovered living Neanderthals, they would swiftly be classified as Same Species. Even Homo Erectus would be eventually. You’d have to get back to the Australopithecenes before it’d be in doubt.

  124. Trump National Los Angeles Golf Club

    I guess this sounds a little more gold plated than “Trump National Long Beach”.

  125. Alden says:
    @Jack Armstrong

    I remember that. Yates went out of town for medical treatment to hide the fact he had a tiger and alligator living in his small apartment. I wonder where he is now?

    • Replies: @Autochthon
  126. Realist says:
    @Father O'Hara

    Swedish? Was he a muslem?

    By looking at Sweden today, one would think so. They are dumbasses.

  127. @Buzz Mohawk

    Thanks. Loved the kilt picture. And all the other creative contributions, of course.

  128. Wilkey says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    No it can’t. Consanguinity and bigamy bans now apply to these “equal marriages”. Why they do is inexplicable, because the rationale is now absent. When Minnesota adopted marriage equality by legislation rather than court order, the sex-specific consanguinity rules were rewritten to be “gender-neutral”. Eg, that a man couldn’t marry his mother or sister was now a person (or whatever) can’t marry a parent or sibling.

    If such rules weren’t written into the law I’d imagine that a billionaire could legally marry his son and avoid inheritance taxes. If he had three sons he could marry each and divorce them in turn, with each “divorce settlement” giving them a share of his wealth.

    Of course you could also avoid inheritance taxes by marrying your cousin (presumably a younger one) in some states, but few people try to pass their wealth on to their cousins.

    • Replies: @Jack Armstrong
  129. Corvinus says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Do Not Possess Neanderthal DNA:

    https://twitter.com/hashtag/whitepeoplerioting

    Next time, try to be more accurate and inclusive.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
  130. @Sean

    There is no evidence neanderthals were ever milled by modern humans and if you dig a bit deeper than sensationalist articles from websites like “The Guardian” or “Daily Mail” you will see why.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
  131. @Alden

    Well, he ought to be in a prison (maybe a funny farm?), for cruelty to animals and exploitation of animals.

    • Agree: Charon
  132. nymom says:
    @The Alarmist

    “big borowed”

    Did you mean big-boned???

    Because if you did it is only really true of African-Americans. I have been following a web site on the whole South African situation lately and I was very surprised to see the difference in body structures between Africans in Africa versus Africans in the USA.

    African-Americans men are much much larger, taller, stronger than their counterparts in Africa. Surprising most of the White farmers appear much larger than the black Africans. They are out-numbered by them; but, proportionately far larger, taller, etc.,

    So that’s an interesting little factoid.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  133. @guest

    if you’re gonna he the 22nd trolling person to make the “sapiens not so wise, huh?” joke, don ‘t do “not so salient is humanity in the Current Year, har-har.”

    One old Usenet poster used the signature “Are humans smarter than yeast?”

    You can’t look at e.g. Niger and give an unambiguous yes.

  134. @Corvinus

    The difference is we built all the shit we are destroying in such Bacchanalian crazes. If a people from time to time get pissed off at their leaders or take partying too far, that’s their own business (and human nature). If an alien people revolt against their hosts and start smashing everything (physically and metaphorically)…well, that’s far more lamentable (and preventable, or, at least, reparable).

    *I use here “we” to mean white people as a whole, of course.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  135. @Anon

    You guys need to study Neanderthal skull shapes for a longer period to be able to pick out Neanderthal traits and distinguish them from Cro Magnon traits.

    Neanderthal traits are those that create populations that look like Southern Italians and Russian Jews.

    Those populations are extremely dolichocephalic like Neanderthals?

    • Replies: @Anon
  136. @Hippopotamusdrome

    I had to check, too; it’s part of Papua New Guinea (so, no argument against Peak Savagery here…).

  137. Thea says:
    @Mr. Rational

    Wouldn’t those hybrids be our ancestors? Otherwise where did the admixture come from?

    A few must have lived with cro-magnons or interbred with them surreptitiously.

    • Replies: @Mr. Rational
  138. Thea says:
    @Art Deco

    I like that succinct statement.

  139. @Wilkey

    No it can’t. Consanguinity and bigamy bans now apply to these “equal marriages”.

    But if you crouch down, squint and look hard at the darkest shadows of the penumbræ you’ll see that these so-called laws are clearly, and have always been, unconstitutional.

    Do you think Jeffrey Epstein married someone on his cellblock that we just haven’t heard about yet?

  140. @Tiny Duck

    white girls sure seem to like physical contact with Men of Colour!

    Why do you guys think that it is?

    Well, they also seem to like contact with cucumbers and bananas, so perhaps it’s simply that they like brainless phallic objects?

  141. Jack D says:
    @Anon

    Neanderthals had bigger brains than modern humans so I would be proud to claim Neanderthal ancestry. However, I doubt it. In humans who have any Neanderthal DNA, it only make up a maximum of maybe 2% of our genome. If you know someone who is, for example, 98% white, their 2% non-white ancestry usually has little or no visible impact on their appearance – it’s just too little to change the way you look. To confound the issue even more, Middle Eastern Neanderthals looked more like modern humans than European ones – there was probably interbreeding going on both ways.

    • Replies: @Thea
    , @Anon
  142. Jack D says:
    @Sean

    I don’t know where you got that picture from but that looks nothing like a Neanderthal. It looks less human than a gorilla. The consensus view is that Neanderthals looked something like this:

    • Replies: @Sean
  143. Thea says:
    @Jack D

    There was. Over time Neanderthal populations began to show modern human admixture

  144. @Sean

    Archaeological findings in the Denisovan caves in the Altai mountains suggests H. Denisovans (as well as potentially H. Neanderthals and Denisovan/Neanderthal hybrids) had clothing, sewing, jewelry, rotary drills and musical instruments.

    The Denisovan/Neanderthal hybrid is dated to 90kya (88,000 BC) and the sewing needle is 50kya. Bracelet is 40kya.

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2019/08/19/the-denisovans-new-finds-are-illuminating-the-mysterious-ancient-humans/

    http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/features/f0100-stone-bracelet-is-oldest-ever-found-in-the-world/

    http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/news/n0711-worlds-oldest-needle-found-in-siberian-cave-that-stitches-together-human-history/

  145. Thea says:
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    Some research shows that infant Neanderthal skulls grew slower than modern human skulls.

    so they were compatible with the cro mag on pelvis

  146. Anon[115] • Disclaimer says:
    @ben tillman

    I think that qualifying Neanderthals as simply dolichocephalic, in the context of it being the source of the same trait in humans, is too oversimplified a conclusion.

    It ignores many possible variables in human and hominid species development that have not yet been accounted for in terms of the popular science discussion on the topic (though they are accounted for in the science, if one digs).

    In assuming that this trait began with Neanderthals, it relies on an assumed subtext of evolutionary theory of human racial development: which is not proven science. An unconscious assumption in science writing that, if you are still with me, leads to further bad science because of the probably flawed nature of this assumption.

    Neanderthal brain architecture was radically different on a macro scale, and therefore their skull shape is radically different enough to muddy any conclusions about their contributions to the cephalic index of modern human populations. In my opinion.

    I personally believe that the races are a result of species interbreeding, with modern man as a starting point, and not evolution (I have pages of high-level-evidence science abstracts and data to back up this conclusion).

    Therefore, I can remain agnostic on whether or not Neanderthals may have even been a result of such a hybrid mixture (modern man with an archaic hominid).

    I do believe that this hybridization process, and a following natural selection process in competition with humans with lesser hominid admixture and therefore greater intelligence, reduced the hominid genetic load in these populations to a minimum amount and it is what gave us today’s two other major races (East Asians and Blacks).

    The point is that, given my current information, the long-head cephalic index may just as well been conferred to the Neanderthals as well as it might be from them.

    If it was conferred, then there would be specific legacy hominid phenotypic traits mixed in with the human long head feature: adapted to the Neanderthal brain architecture.

    A hypothetical new hybrid “Neanderthal” race may have just been smart enough, or otherwise well hidden enough in caves in Anatolia and Israel, to defy natural selection in the face of modern human competition. Enough to breed a new hominid species with a much greater degree of hominid genetics that would have been otherwise selected out in the face of intense human competition. As likely occurred to breed the Asian and Black human races of today.

    Were any prior hominids dolichocephalic? How do we know that modern humans didn’t naturally select across the cephalic index due to minor changes in diet and environment, with no hominid admixture required to influence it? I can readily find examples of modern individuals, across the index, which have no phenotypic signs of hominid admixture. One doesn’t have to go further than Northern Germany to find both.

    It is obvious that Neanderthals bred back into the human genetic pool and then were eventually selected into extinction. Which is why, today, we see Neanderthal traits in human populations. In fact, the higher than mean Neanderthal admixture is what primarily defines the race of the primary populations that inhabit the land from the region of Armenia (with a healthy radius around it) and South into Southern Arabia. Namely: Jews, Arabs, and their genetic legacy populations in places like Southern Italy.

    Although I more readily see Neanderthal traits in dolichocephalic individuals, I don’t see them in all such individuals. Some can look perfectly unmixed when examining jawline and forehead slope. I have family members on my German side with extremely dolichocephalic heads and zero indication of Neanderthal admixture in terms of any other indicators. Their skull shapes look like those from Greek statues from antiquity. I personally find the mandible/maxilla shape and forehead slope to be more consistent indicators of definite hominid admixture. As for the cephalic index, I’m open to all possibilities at the moment.

  147. @Mr. Rational

    (see C. Kaepernick and J. Smollett) sub-Saharan Africans should be classed as one or several distinct species of genus Homo.

    I’m pretty sure Smollet is widely recognized as a homo already..

  148. Anon[333] • Disclaimer says:
    @S. M. Coulton

    Look, its the retard who hasn’t the education to know to cite his source for critique. And who wants readers to blindly believe that there was a study well enough funded to genetically test all of the listed populations to such a high level of specificity. The breadth of that table implies that those numbers are fraudulent. The subject samples needed, alone, to get an accurate mean number for each population would be enormous. The flights, alone, required to go to each to screen for and test the required subject samples would blow the budget of any research group before you got 1/2 down one side of that list. Take your fraud somewhere else.

    Genetic admixture contribution of any group is highest at that group’s central locus. That’s axiomatic. The central locus of the Western Neanderthal was at two points: Northern Israel and Armenia (the site of the Noah’s Ark landing in the Jewish tale). It follows that the obvious Neanderthal phenotype traits seen as the stereotpyical Jewish features are, in fact, from higher than normal Neanderthal admixture due to Jewish concentration around the primary Neanderthal hives. Or are Jews not traditionally local to the region of Israel and does their tradition not detail that they descended from the region of Ark landing? Both, coincidentally, the sites of the major Western Neanderthal populations.

    Its easy enough to study Neanderthal skull shapes and reconstructions to see the ultra-heavy Neanderthal genetic load in Jewish and Arab populations. Combined with the rest, your citation-free fraudulent table and your petulant temper tantrum both come come off as nonsense.

  149. DRA says:
    @AnotherDad

    Much easier for a Neanderthal Sapiens to rape a Homo Sapiens than vice versa.

  150. Anon[405] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    Neanderthals had bigger brains than modern humans so I would be proud to claim Neanderthal ancestry.

    For Pete’s sake. You may as well be proud to claim monkey ancestry. You can harbor unlearned views, but to claim pride in them on a public comments section is to fall prey to arrogance.

    “Bigger brain” doesn’t mean much within certain parameters (as you can partly discern by the fact that we selected Neanderthals into extinction, with the exception of some of their genetic admixture in our gene pool). What matters is brain architecture. We also have a higher brain volume to body ratio than Neanderthals, which is an important metric in terms of what you are attempting to imply (ie: Elephants have larger brains than we do, but are they smarter?).

    Look at the following comparison between the fully human skull shape and the “bigger brain” Neanderthal skull shape. Notice the sloped forehead above the heavy brow ridge on the Neanderthal that indicates much lower fore-brain volume: the part of the brain that confers the executive control and reasoning ability that makes us human. This brain architecture is a primary difference between that of monkeys and humans. As animals become less socially complex, less of this part of the brain is present.

    Now look at the difference in the occipital contour, with the occipital portion of the human brain all but missing in the Neanderthal in comparison. At the least, it indicates a markedly different brain architecture than that of human beings. We are not the same species as Neanderthal. The Neanderthal was a hominid.

    However, I doubt it. In humans who have any Neanderthal DNA, it only make up a maximum of maybe 2% of our genome.

    That’s likely to come out publicly as false in the medium term future. There will be populations proven to have higher percentages of admixture. Just as it has not yet come out that Blacks harbor 5-11% of archaic hominid admixture.

    If you know someone who is, for example, 98% white, their 2% non-white ancestry usually has little or no visible impact on their appearance

    Sure it does. Just as you are untrained to see the very obvious differences between Neanderthal and human skull architecture, you are untrained to see obvious phenotype differences that mark higher hominid admixture in living humans.

    • Replies: @Rupert
  151. Anon[290] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twodees Partain

    Yes, Ron Pearlman is a good example of an obviously Neanderthal phenotype that is an expression of the higher Neanderthal genetic load present in the Jewish population.

  152. Rupert says:
    @Anon

    Anon, are you saying that it will soon come out that some humans have much higher than 2% Neanderthal DNA? How high, like 10%? And how soon?

  153. @The Alarmist

    Paul Walker was driving south with Emmitt Till on Highway 61 in August of ’55, heading for the Delta. Along the way they picked up Lennon, a young vagrant from Liverpool. Along the way Emmitt taught John the blues guitar.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  154. @Neil Templeton

    I thought they learned the Blues from Rutling Orange Peel, but I guess that was the Rutles.

  155. @Thea

    Wouldn’t those hybrids be our ancestors?

    Yes, exactly.

    BTW, is there any reason that comment-edit does not work on isteve?  It works on SBPDL and AE.  When I post a comment here it disappears and only shows up if approved; there is no 5-minute edit window.

  156. Sean says:

    The anthropologist in the Guardian specifically says that there was no blitzkrieg, just like they once said the Aryans were just a people with a language that others adopted because it sounded nice, not an expansionist rape and murder cult slaughtering farmer men like silly sheep.

    I am aware the Neanderthals and Cro Magnons co existed in different niches in the same area for thousands of years but I also know that the early Cro Magnons did not have projectile weapons and Neanderthals would have been extremely dangerous at close quarters. Blitzkrieg, and they would have killed Neanderthals for sport. I cannot see and rape occurring; Neanderthal females would bite a human male’s face off. Infants kept as pets seems the most likely explanation. Even tigers will jump through hoops if you feed them from when they are young.

  157. Sean says:
    @Jack D

    Top: Santa
    Second: Pete Postlewaite
    Third down: Slightly lower skull than my bricklayer Uncle Jimmy
    Fourth apart from light and beard skin looks Papua New Guinea native

    It looks less human than a gorilla.

    Giving it not only modern human facial features but the those of a European and friendly European is preposterous. Of course it comes as a shock to see them as what they were.
    Gorilla compared

    Neanderthal compared.

    https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3ffff899ff939491b4c04c9cf63ba10f.webp

    The original north European Anatomically Modern Human hunter gatherers wuz black skinned. Neanderthals were white under their FUR.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
  158. @S. M. Coulton

    Codswallop! I’ve proof right here they are being milled, then baked into delicious clusters of granola, to this very day!

  159. @anon

    More importantly, what did John Lennon ever have to say about Emmett Till?

    Doesn’t Matter . If you write a song called Woman Is the N#gger of the World, there’s no redemption.

  160. Corvinus says:
    @Autochthon

    “The difference is we built all the shit we are destroying in such Bacchanalian crazes.”

    Except it wasn’t white people, it was specific European ethnic groups. More importantly, they had relied on advancements and innovations from the Mesopotamia and China. You must have been asleep in sophomore World History.

    Now, if you want to go down this road that white people made everything without acknowledging that this same group had also ruined anything it touched its grubby hands on–it’s the reason we can’t have nice things–then, Houston, we have a problem.

    I’ll let you figure out who this “we” refers to.

  161. @Anon

    Ligers are my favorite animal.

  162. @Sean

    On the left, Senator; right, billionaire donor, sans sunglasses.

  163. dvorak says:
    @G. Poulin

    “Are Netherlanders the same species as us?”

    They are far taller than the rest of us. If allowed to evolve without interference (Star Trek’s Prime Directive), they might become a superior species.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  164. TS says:

    Vault-co, ahead of the curve!

  165. @nymom

    I meant big-browed, but didn’t catch the typo.

  166. @dvorak

    I know plenty of Netherlanders, and they, like their Belgian cousins, are certain they are superior to the rest of us.

    • Replies: @Sean
  167. Sean says:
    @The Alarmist

    The way you prove your group is supreme in the modern world is to voxplain why a second group is stupid for believing they are superior to a third group. And yes the Dutch are past masters at it.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/apr/30/neanderthals-not-less-intelligent-humans-scientists

    The view of Neanderthals as club-wielding brutes is one of the most enduring stereotypes in science, but researchers who trawled the archaeological evidence say the image has no basis whatsoever.

    They said scientists had fuelled the impression of Neanderthals being less than gifted in scores of theories that purport to explain why they died out while supposedly superior modern humans survived.

    Wil Roebroeks at Leiden University in the Netherlands said: “The connotation is generally negative. For instance, after incidents with the Dutch Ajax football hooligans about a week ago, one Dutch newspaper piece pleaded to make football stadiums off-limits for such ‘Neanderthals’.

    If you look at the human-gorilla and Neanderthal-human comparisons I linked to above it is rather obvious that Neanderthals were skeletally and cranially very much closer to gorillas than humans were. The massive lower rib cage of Neanderthals was cited by Stringer as clear cut indication that they were a different species

  168. BB753 says:

    Speciation has fuzzy boundaries.

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