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From the Los Angeles Times:

Police fear ‘suicide by cop’ cases. So they’ve stopped responding to some calls

By ANITA CHABRIA STAFF WRITER
AUG. 10, 2019 5 AM

… “I think almost anyone assumes when you call the sheriff’s office for help that you’re going to get some help. And they refused to go.”

Plumas County is not the only jurisdiction in California that is rethinking how it responds to suicide calls. Some small and midsize law enforcement agencies across the state have stopped responding to certain calls because of the potential dangers to both officers and the person attempting to end his or her life. They also present a financial liability from lawsuits — especially if the situation turns violent.

… Some fear that, as police stand down, civilians will be left to handle difficult and potentially dangerous situations alone. But Hagwood and others in law enforcement say the profession must examine its legal and moral obligations in an era when use of force is under intense scrutiny and there is increased pressure to curtail deadly police incidents.

A bill currently on Gov. Gavin Newsom’s desk would toughen the state’s rules for when officers can use lethal force. It mimics civil case law, which, for years, has allowed examinations of officers’ behavior leading up to fatal encounters. For many law enforcement officers, evolving expectations combined with rising numbers of mental health calls mean changing, and potentially limiting, what they do.

“We can’t always be everything to everyone all the time,” Hagwood said.

The fear of encountering a suicide by cop event — when a person takes actions, such as brandishing a weapon, that prompt officers to use deadly force — is especially worrying. In a 2009 study of more than 700 officer-involved shootings nationwide, 36% of incidents were determined to be attempts at provoking officers to use deadly force.

Other studies have found that 10% to 46% of police shootings involved suicide by cop attempts — though the definition of what constitutes a suicide by cop is controversial. Critics say too often it is used to justify police violence. In the 2009 study, researchers found police killed the suicidal person more than half of the time and injured the person in 40% of encounters. The suicidal person was unharmed in only 3% of police encounters.

It would be good if cops could come up with better ways to handle dangerous situations. About the only thing we know for sure is having The Establishment tell blacks that whites are evil racists out to kill them sure didn’t work when tried in 2014 to 2016.

 
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  1. El Dato says:

    Plumas County is not the only jurisdiction in California that is rethinking how it responds to suicide calls. Some small and midsize law enforcement agencies across the state have stopped responding to certain calls because of the potential dangers to both officers and the person attempting to end his or her life. They also present a financial liability from lawsuits — especially if the situation turns violent.

    Police have received conflicting information and may have to be disconnected like HAL 9000 as it has become dangerous.

    In other news: THE HUNT is now direct-to-video.

    I suspected this:

  2. “I think almost anyone assumes when you call the sheriff’s office for help that you’re going to get some help. And they refused to go.”

    “Almost anyone assumes” that because, despite my extensive efforts, almost everyone is unaware of a nearly 40 year old case that clearly decided the police owe you nothing.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

    Plumas County is not the only jurisdiction in California that is rethinking how it responds to suicide calls.

    They’re law enforcement, not outcall psychiatric care. What options do they really have in these situations? You can’t arrest someone for trying to kill themselves.

    • Agree: Old Prude
  3. Andrew M says:

    Tasers are a safe, effective alternative to handguns, but they only work at short range. Perhaps the manufacturers could be encouraged to develop longer-range versions; maybe deployed by drone.

  4. About the only thing we know for sure is having The Establishment tell blacks that whites are evil racists out to kill them sure didn’t work

    Given that the Establishment’s principal motive is to have all the various tribes perpetually at one another’s throats, the better to keep them distracted, I’d say it worked reasonably well.

    • Agree: Paleo Liberal
  5. Anon[126] • Disclaimer says:

    Is this a pan-racial thing, or another case of elephant-in-room journalism? What did paragraph 68 say?

  6. NickG says:

    About the only thing we know for sure is having The Establishment tell blacks that whites are evil racists out to kill them sure didn’t work when tried in 2014 to 2016.

    There’s no reason to believe this is going to change.

    • Agree: TWS
  7. Anon[126] • Disclaimer says:
    @Andrew M

    Dallas cops finished off the 5-cop killer guy with a robot-deployed bomb. Just make sure the wireless connection isn’t hackable!

  8. El Dato says:

    OT: Someone has finally though about the lead released during the Notre Dame fire. It struck me as strange that this wasn’t the news on day+1. I mean, you had all that suspiciously yellow smoke coming a a FRACKING BURNING LEAD ROOF (210 tons) yet not a peep.

    Key labour union, environmental groups want Notre-Dame site sealed over lead fears.

  9. Tiny Duck says:

    There is an easy solution to police problems

    1. Ban white men from the police force because all cases of police brutality are done by white men

    2. Ban guns so that danger to all parties is eliminated

  10. My father was a cop, and in the old days they got sent out into riots in shirtsleeves with a helmet, billy-club, a handgun, maybe a shotgun, and rarely a shield. Too many of today’s cops are dependent on way too much equipment, and way too dependent on their guns. Maybe we need to simply send cops with billy-clubs and let them beat some sense into the potential suicide.

  11. @Oleaginous Outrager

    You can’t arrest someone for trying to kill themselves.

    Actually, you can; it’s a crime in most places.

  12. Hgh says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    Maybe an Epstein client who won, using Epstein Zorro Trust as shell company to maintain anonymity.

  13. CK says:
    @Oleaginous Outrager

    Actually, attempted suicide is a crime; successful suicide not so much.

    • Replies: @Hail
  14. “It would be good if cops could come up with better ways to handle dangerous situations.

    I’m not really a big fan of the police. But this statement kind of ignores your entire theme about the magic dirt. The US continues to populate its lands with people incapable of functioning within a 1st world, western country, while the government and media continue to enable to enable savagery from its indigenous black population. So let’s be realistic about their (the police’s) conundrum. The only way to “police” a feral life form is to either kill it, cage it, or send it back to where it came from.

    • Agree: bomag, Autochthon, Alden
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    , @MBlanc46
  15. @The Alarmist

    That sign “MEN BOYS WEAR” is disturbing.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  16. Anonymous[213] • Disclaimer says:

    Remember from Futurerama they had 25 cent suicide booths on every corner.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  17. Arclight says:

    The effort to make the masses think cops are just gunning down harmless black guys has been hugely successful. We’re still talking about a couple hundred shootings a year of blacks by cops (80% of which there are witnesses who say involved threats to other people or the cops, according to the WaPo), versus the 7,000 or so annual homicides that don’t involve the police.

    I don’t have a high opinion of the media in terms of getting complicated stories right, but this is obviously willful ignorance, disseminated widely.

    • Agree: 95Theses, Hail
  18. @Reg Cæsar

    You missed the ampersand, but you were probably distracted by the men manhandling the boy.

  19. There’s something Kama Sutra about an ampersand anyway.

  20. jill says:

    The Supreme Court has already ruled the the police do not have a duty to protect:

    “Nevertheless, the Court found that the government had no affirmative duty to protect any person, even a child, from harm by another person. “Nothing in the language of the Due Process Clause itself requires the State to protect the life, liberty, and property of its citizens against invasion by private actors,” stated Chief Justice Rehnquist for the majority, “even where such aid may be necessary to secure life, liberty, or property interests of which the government itself may not deprive the individual” without “due process of the law.”

    https://www.barneslawllp.com/blog/police-not-required-protect

  21. “It would be good if cops could come up with better ways to handle dangerous situations.

    I don’t really have any practical solutions, but a good start would be a study of how each of the large nations with developed economies deals with suicide alert calls and see if there were any ideas that might help.

    In the US each year more cops die from suicide (killing themselves) than are killed by criminals or in road traffic accidents, so perhaps we could also come up with better ways to handle police mental health issues.

    https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/10/03/it-s-time-we-talk-about-police-suicide

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
  22. “It would be good if cops could come up with better ways to handle dangerous situations.

    I don’t really have any practical solutions, but a good start would be a study of how each of the large nations with developed economies deals with suicide alert calls and see if there were any ideas that might help.

    In the US each year more cops die from suicide (killing themselves) than are killed by criminals or in road traffic accidents, so perhaps we could also come up with better ways to handle police mental health issues too.

    https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/10/03/it-s-time-we-talk-about-police-suicide

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  23. Prosa123 says:

    Hagwood should be thrown in prison and lustily sodomized.

  24. @Reg Cæsar

    One of my professors in college told the class that his favorite book was the Kama Sutra.

  25. RudyM says:

    In the 2009 study, researchers found police killed the suicidal person more than half of the time and injured the person in 40% of encounters. The suicidal person was unharmed in only 3% of police encounters.

    What does this last part mean exactly? Do only 3% of individuals who receive welfare checks from police, based on fears that they are suicidal, end up unharmed? Or is this only 3% from the sub-set who are known, ahead of time, to be armed? It can’t be correct that 97% of welfare checks by police end up with individuals suspected of being suicidal being harmed. Looking at the article more closely, this might apply specifically to “suicidal individuals” brandishing weapons, but it’s a little unclear.

    I don’t think suicide should be treated as a crime, anyway. I hear again and again that it’s not illegal, but it’s sure treated as if it is illegal.

    If I were seriously considering suicide and police showed up at my door potentially to haul me off to a psych. ward, that could very easily be the thing that would tip the scales and make me decide to end my life, either on my own or with the help of the police. (This is a subject that actually hits very close to home, but I’m not getting into that.)

    At the same time, asking police to be emergency counselors or psychotherapists is asking way too much of them, especially given what their primary job is. They already deal with a ridiculous amount of stress.

    Still, sometimes they rise to the occasion. Maybe more often than I’d expect. I remember hearing how cops in Philadelphia escorted one of my neighbors out the building when she was having a mental breakdown of some sort. As they were taking the elevator downstairs, she started singing “Amazing Grace,” and they joined in with her.

    • Replies: @RudyM
    , @Jonathan Mason
  26. @Jonathan Mason

    In the US each year more cops die from suicide (killing themselves) than are killed by criminals or in road traffic accidents

    This is great news. It has really gotten my Sunday off to a good start.

  27. @Andrew M

    Not necessarily. In NE Ohio, we had taser chick. This booze-addled POS took 5 taser hits. The national media was in an uproar about police brutality.
    18 months later, taser chick is in news again for being tasered again, twice in this incident. It made national headlines, then disappeared. Why? Because this time the witnesses to her behavior weren’t a bunch of drunk 20-somethings angry at the cops for hauling away the night’s entertainment. It was the 18 year old she screamed at and then attacked, as well as her friends who saw her attack.
    Rodney King was also tasered before that famous edited video.

  28. Jack D says:
    @The Alarmist

    In those days most rioters didn’t have guns of their own. And the past was a different country – there was a much greater tolerance for risk in those days. People smoked like chimneys. They drove around in cars with no airbags, no seatbelts and that crumpled lie tin cans when they got into accidents. Firemen went into burning buildings without airpacks.

    Police training nowadays emphasizes that if someone points a weapon at you, you should shoot them (repeatedly) immediately because if you hesitate even a second you might die. This is certainly good for people contemplating suicide by cop. They know that all they have to do is point a gun at a cop and the cop will take care of their suicide for them.

    We definitely need more and better non-lethal weapons for cops. Fixing the training will be hard – probably half or more of the time if the cops didn’t shoot, the person pointing the weapon wouldn’t shoot the cop anyway. But we live in a risk averse society – cops today aren’t going to put up with even a 10% risk that they are going to get shot if they don’t shoot first. They are always going to give THEMSELVES the benefit of the doubt.

  29. Just to suggest something potentially retarded(i am not a cop and don’t have experiences subduing criminals.) Could police use a tranquilizer gun like they use on zoo animals? Like show up, assess the situation and just open fire with a dart gun?

    • Replies: @Yngvar
  30. RudyM says:
    @RudyM

    Anyway, the overwhelming majority of counselors and psychotherapists, with all their credentials, suck at what they do, but that’s another matter.

  31. TWS says:
    @Oleaginous Outrager

    Actually, you can and do. Cops have been doing it since we first had tin badges, people are just trained differently now.

  32. RudyM says:

    Putting the Ferguson spin on this particular topic seems particularly forced. As you know very well, suicide–even suicide by cop–is not especially a black thing.

  33. TWS says:
    @Tiny Duck

    How would young black men assert their dominance over the white women they crave? How could the men and women of world star hip hop negotiate dinner plans or go shopping without firearms? You’re not being culturally sensitive. It’s like taking goats from Arabs, that’s not who we are.

  34. @Reg Cæsar

    Look doddering old guy, its great that you’ve figured out how to post pics and links to videos but FFS give it a rest.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  35. @El Dato

    Not sure why people are worked up about “The Hunt.” The deplorables are the good guys, while the liberal elites are the bad guys. If anything, the film has a populist message.

    They pulled the same stunt when “Life of Brian” came out. “Life of Brian” is very critical of the Jewish left; the “suicide squad” and “PFJ union meeting” scenes give the general idea. It has very little to do with religion, except to say that an Englishman with 1970s ideals would find it a strange place (the “We are all individuals” scene). Yet it was denounced upon its release as being anti-Christian, with supposedly large numbers of clergy expressing that opinion. Shortly after that, “Holy Moses” [1] came out, and not a peep. “Holy Moses” was an attempted comedy that was not funny.

    You have to remember that the scale of lying is (and has been) almost unimaginable. It’s on Soviet levels, and has been for awhile. If the “mainstream” media says that water is wet, grass is green, and the sun shines today, keep in mind that there may be a blizzard outside (Water frozen, not wet. Grass hidden by snow and in any case brown, and the Sun not shining, but hidden by almost opaque clouds). Don’t even think of it as lies — it’s sort of like reading a potboiler — it’s entertaining light fiction at most. Nod, forget it, and continue with your life. If you try to make sense out of it, well, that’s expected and the propaganda will work on that level also. Just ignore it, it’s the only method that works.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081751/

  36. Hopscotch says:

    When California law enforcement begins standing down for Hispanics (and they have in multiple areas, particularly, traffic enforcement), it is a small but noticeable step towards a semi-autonomous zone. Basically, an admission that the legal standards for one group cannot be applied to another, and that to try to apply them makes everyone worse off.

    Embedded in the assumptions of British-Anglo Common law, there is an implicit assumption about a necessary IQ that is required to make it work. Tough to pinpoint it exactly, but it seems to be in the mid 90’s. Below that, and people simply do not grasp concepts like individual agency, constitutional rights, presumption of innocence, etc. It’s like asking them to grasp high school algebra. If you look at the countries that try to implement common law, they either do it reasonably well (Anglosphere, Singapore, Hong Kong,..) or they fail miserably (Pakistan, Uganda, India, etc.). Just like your 8th grade math class.

    Additionally, there has been a great deal of discussion about the increased atomization and ethnic polarization of our culture. Most of the discussion deals with societal well-being. But it is rarely mentioned that this will impact the ability to have reasonably fair jury trials in a few decades.

  37. @Andrew M

    Tasers are a safe, effective alternative to handguns, but they only work at short range.

    Tasers are bulky and cannot be effectively concealed. I’ve been told that they fail against people under the influence of some street drugs. There’s a reason handgun are usually chosen. If you want something non-lethal and concealable, take a POST credit eligible course in the extensible baton (same course the police [1]) and practice. Suggest carrying a handgun (get trained, get a license) as well, just in case the baton doesn’t work (which, I’ve been told, it sometimes doesn’t against very large men and presumably under the same conditions that render Taser’s ineffective.)
    Serious advice.

    One of the better scenes from popular literature was a satire on Westerns in which the hero impersonates a recently dead bad guy. He puts on all the bad guy’s equipment (pepperbox gun, Bowie knife, ammunition, brass knuckles, holdout derringer gun, smaller holdout Derringers), tries to stand up, and (slowly at first) falls over from the weight. Even modern stuff is heavy, so being effectively armed is a real chore, as is the continual situational awareness and practice needed to make the hardware effective.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] If you don’t take the course, the extensible baton (and any steel club) is considered to be a deadly weapon, which it is. If you _do_ take the course and use it as a deadly weapon, be prepared to defend yourself in court. Pre-paid legal plans are your best option there.

    • Replies: @Jack Hanson
    , @Autochthon
  38. @El Dato

    Jason Blum and Damon Lindelof are both smart and accomplished guys. They are also devout leftists. Blum is out and loud with his anti-Trumpism, and Lindelof has mutilated Alan Moore’s Watchmen into an anti-racism parable for HBO. In other words, they accurately represent present day Hollywood. I’m not that familiar with The Hunt (2019), but the above tweet is probably accurate. I think the film should be released. I know someone who has a script in the consideration phase at Blumehouse and is suddenly worried. It’s a very emotional business.

  39. @Jack D

    In those days most rioters didn’t have guns of their own.

    Firearms were cheap and plentiful back in the 1920s -1930s (when I’d guess the picture was taken). It’s just that the rioters ordinarily didn’t want to shoot anybody. They also knew that the police/rangers/troopers were quite ready to use firearms themselves and that the militia might be called in, so escalation would have meant losing.

    There were riots in which firearms were used: https://www.history.com/topics/black-history/chicago-race-riot-of-1919

    Counterinsurgency

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
  40. JimB says:

    It would be good if cops could come up with better ways to handle dangerous situations.

    http://www.bluesheepdog.com/2018/11/02/bolawrap-100-lasso-gun-police-less-lethal-device/

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208656/Fears-new-wireless-police-Taser-gun-deliver-500v-shock-98ft-away.html

    There is a lot of non-lethal, less lethal tech out there. The Feds should be shipping this to local police forces instead of surplus army armored personnel carriers and assault rifles.

  41. Peter1 says:

    Given suicide, including attempt, is NO LONGER a crime in nearly every state but four (shows you how many west coasties are on here) the real answer is simply quit responding to suicide calls period.

    Speaking of that, the decriminalization of it leads to wierd situations. A couple years ago I stopped an intoxicated cousin from killing themselves (tackled them as they were about to step off a balcony at their apartment after their wife just left them) whom I knew damn well wasn’t going to kill himself sober nor even drunk the next day after the initial shock wore off. They were determined so I physically restrained them and in the commotion police were called by neighbors. I was arrested for assault as “suicide isn’t a crime” and while I was on my way to jail my cousin finished the job. Charges were eventually beat after a lengthy legal process but the fact I was arrested and my nonsuicidal cousin died speaks to wonders of American policing.

  42. 95Theses says:
    @Tiny Duck

    Sorry, but a certain Clinton-appointed Surgeon General already beat you to it.

  43. Corvinus says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    “The US continues to populate its lands with people incapable of functioning within a 1st world, western country.”

    Exactly what was said by WASPs when America was inundated with non-WASPs, specifically Slavs and Poles. It made no difference these groups were white and European, they had alien customs. So what has made the progeny today capable of “functioning”? Magic dirt, anyone?

    “The only way to “police” a feral life form is to either kill it, cage it, or send it back to where it came from.”

    Imagine how the natives felt when Europeans set foot on the continent and were killed or enslaved for gimmedats and free stuff.

    • Troll: YetAnotherAnon
  44. anon[119] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Alarmist

    Today is the anniversary of the 1965 Watt’s riot.
    Here is a an example of the official explanation (from Bing) you will find anywhere in schools, media, and government:

    Spurred by poverty, racism, and tension between residents and the city’s police, riots break out in L.A.’s Watts neighborhood.

    A more truthful statement would be:
    “Spurred by demonization of whites, black resentment, black crime, and black genetic averages, riots break out in L.A.’s Watt’s neighborhood.”

    Also this from Wikepedia:

    On August 11, 1965, Marquette Frye, an African-American motorist on parole for robbery, was pulled over for reckless driving. A minor roadside argument broke out, and then escalated into a fight with police.

    The more truthful statement:
    “An African-American motorist on parole for robbery was pulled over for reckless driving. He resisted arrest, attacking the police. Other criminal black bystanders joined in the attack on police. The police fought back.”

    The hand that writes the narrative rules the world.

  45. “About the only thing we know for sure is having The Establishment tell blacks that whites are evil racists out to kill them sure didn’t work when tried in 2014 to 2016.”

    we’ll be right back to that when Trump leaves office, so be prepared.

    but this time, with a helping of Reparations invective.

  46. Jesse says:
    @Corvinus

    Exactly what was said by WASPs when America was inundated with non-WASPs, specifically Slavs and Poles.

    And they were right! Look at America’s historic white populations today – they’re following the same trend that you’d expect – the Scots Irish, the Scandis, the Irish etc. Sometimes that’s good – a Swedish work ethic and trustworthiness will, on a large scale, make a success out of anything. Sometimes it’s…less good. Look at West Virginia.

    So what has made the progeny today capable of “functioning”? Magic dirt, anyone?

    Inasmuch as they are functioning (a big caveat)? Stopping immigration, a mercantilist economic system, generally being less fucked up than the African American subset (with a considerably lower proportion of active deadweight members)…Take your pick. Problem is, even without the question of genetics, none of what kinda worked back then is politically feasible today. There’s no breathing space from an immigration moratorium. No one’s going to be imposing any culture on them, not even a common language. Big Business and friends won’t tolerate any economics short of full scale globalization. Even expressing disapproval of someone’s obnoxious habits is now a hate crime.

    Imagine how the natives felt when Europeans set foot on the continent and were killed or enslaved for gimmedats and free stuff.

    And the Native Americans took it off other people – using force that, within the technological limits of the time, would’ve made the Nazis gape. Can we start claiming that the NA should stop whining about losing “their” land to a bigger, badder warrior class? (That would actually be awesome.)

    That said, it’s interesting to see the claws come out. All pretense that this will be good for Americans is gone. Now it’s “you deserve to die”.

  47. DCThrowback says: • Website
    @El Dato

    Greer is correct of course. In our glorious future, there is no room for things like nuance & noticing.

  48. NYMOM says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    “Epstein won the $29 million Powerball lottery back in 2008″…

    Oh Oh, the plot ‘sickens’.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  49. NYMOM says:
    @Tiny Duck

    Or ban white men from working in predominantly black areas…that way blacks can have their own people policing them and reassign the whites to all those easy jobs in white neighbors where they can relax and just wave at people coming and going home w/o worrying about getting gunned down or stabbed…

  50. @Corvinus

    Yes yes troll, have a pat on the head and run along.

  51. Sean says:

    They don’t like their life or policemen. Two birds with one stone. Plus they avoid the stigma of suicide.

  52. @El Dato

    Yeah, I agree lol. The hunt seemed pro-deplorable

  53. @Jonathan Mason

    police mental health issues too.

    Police, like their prey, are attracted to risk. Crime is concentrated in compact zones, and if you aren’t stationed in that zone, life is doughnut shop-dull. Cops should be pulled from the Dragnet audience, so they know what’s in store.

    On the other hand, if you are stationed in that zone, and have started a family, you’ll have other issues.

    …a study of how each of the large nations with developed economies deals with suicide alert calls and see if there were any ideas that might help.

    This is on what the Heath brothers centered the first chapter of their book on effecting change, Switch: How to Change Things When Change is Hard. Look around and see if anything is already working somewhere. It may be adaptable to your situation.

  54. Plumas County opted out of some federal program about 50 years ago. Didn’t Ronald Reagan cite it in one of his books?

    Plumas is unrepresentative in other ways. Its entire population equals the daily drop in LA’s average Blue Line ridership over the past decade. The county seat isn’t even incorporated.

    I’m many states, it would be a township.

  55. J.Ross says:
    @El Dato

    Scott Greer and some here don’t understand how propaganda works now because they’re used to how it used to work. The old Bolshies were almost Christian compared to our modern sociopathic left, and that’s definitely true artistically because the old ones used Christian ideas and structures whenever they could. The grounding is gone. It is very common now in every format to show victimhood, not to evoke pity and sympathy, but to provoke laughter. The Counselor is one long illustration of this, as is Dragged Across Concrete and most Tarentino violence. You’re not supposed to feel bad for the person, you’re supposed to see them as getting what they deserve. It’s a little confusing because the framework is erotic rather than moralistic, so the unintiated interpret that as some kind of objectivity. It is the objectivity of a scorpion registering a target coming within range of its telson.
    (And of course Greer is probably wrong about which people are worked up for what reason.)

    • Replies: @El Dato
  56. J.Ross says:
    @Anonymous

    That’s totally coming but no way will it be so cheap, they’ll insist on a reverse mortgage.

  57. @Tiny Duck

    Seek help before you snap and kill us all.

  58. @Jack D

    In those days most rioters didn’t have guns of their own. And the past was a different country

    They had guns, but there were rules. Killing a cop meant the electric chair in three years or less. The Lindbergh killer got his less than 2 years from the day he was arrested.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    , @Prosa123
  59. The main goal of every cop is to go home in one piece at the end of his shift.

  60. J.Ross says:
    @NYMOM

    Look at it this way: we’ll get a Coen Brothers movie (of the older, funnier variety) out of the “official story.”

  61. JMcG says:
    @The Alarmist

    New Year’s Day, 1984. I went to the Mummers Parade in Philadelphia with a bunch of friends. One of my buddies tried to break up a fight on the sidewalk in front of us. He got dropped by one of the antagonists, who then proceeded to kick him on the ground.
    I went to get him off my buddy. Then the cops arrived. I got whacked across both shoulder blades with an exquisitely aimed nightstick. Instantly, my only concern was to comply with the wishes of my assailant. Thankfully, the aggressor was pointed out by a host of fellow parade goers.
    The nightstick is a helluva stick my fellow commentors.

  62. Dan Hayes says:
    @Johann Ricke

    Johann Ricke:

    At one time NYC cop-killers were assured summary on-the-spot police executions. In one instance the Police Commissioner publicly berated cops for bringing the perp back alive!

    For some unaccountable reason there were very, very few Big Apple cop-killings in those benighted times!

  63. JMcG says:
    @Jack D

    Jack, it’s an impossible position. I wouldn’t hesitate for a second if a guy with a gun made like he wanted to put me on the wrong side of the grass. Nobody should be expected to do so. Especially these days.
    Imagine being handed a hand gun and thrown into a bull ring with an armed man. You get 50 million if you survive, hell, you get a billion if you survive.
    In fact, suppose you get nothing if you survive. But you get to kiss your kids and hold your wife’s hand again.
    Most guys can’t bear to have a hand laid on them in anger, never mind have a gun pointed at them. I’m no friend of the cops, but the job is terrible.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  64. @Tiny Duck

    And the so-called “superior” white gobble your obvious trolling as something serious LOL

  65. Prosa123 says:
    @Johann Ricke

    You want a fast route from crime to execution, look no further than Giuseppe Zangara. On February 15, 1933 he tried to assassinate president-elect Roosevelt at a public appearance in Miami. Being only five feet tall Zangara stood on a wobbly chair.and his shots went wild. He missed Roosevelt but fatally shot Chicago mayor Anton Cermak* who was on the stage next to Roosevelt, and also fatally shot a woman in the crowd. After pleading guilty, Zangara went to the Hot Squat on March 20, 1933, less than six weeks after the crime.

    * = Cermak was an interesting figure, the living embodiment of the expression “self made man.”

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    , @MBlanc46
    , @peterike
  66. MBlanc46 says:
    @MikeatMikedotMike

    Unfortunately, Mike, that can never, never be said.

  67. J.Ross says:
    @Prosa123

    >Chicago mayor Cermak
    There’s a seasonal tourist restaurant in South-Western Michigan, along the route from Chicago to Al Capone’s vacation spot in St Joseph, called Cermak’s. I wonder if they are related.

  68. MBlanc46 says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    That appears to be a 1965 Ford in the photograph.

  69. J.Ross says:
    @The Alarmist

    The reason they have that equipment is a naked man on PCP would mess your pops up, in minutes, without getting tired or being aware of what he had done. Cops near-universally carried .38 special until a policewoman was killed by a pharmacologically armored drug fiend after having shot him multiple times.

    • Replies: @Marty
    , @The Alarmist
  70. MBlanc46 says:
    @Prosa123

    Some argue that, in fact, Cermak was the intended target, zi am agnostic on the subject.

  71. gp says:

    What is the exact meaning of “36% of incidents were determined to be attempts at provoking officers to use deadly force?” Does it imply that 64% of incidents were unprovoked? But officers aren’t supposed to shoot people without some cause, i.e., provocation.

    I am really sorry that some officers feel bad after getting snookered by a suicide-by-cop setup. My heartfelt advice to them is: don’t feel bad about it! It’s not your fault, he didn’t care a bit that he would disturb your conscience, and he would have killed himself some other way if all officers were disarmed. Maybe he would have chosen a method that killed many.

    And really, is the world that much worse off without the guy? He got what he wanted, after all. Of all the injustices and tragedies and misery in the world, is that suicidal guy significant enough to pine over? We the general law-abiding public do not care much about him, but we do care about you.

  72. Moses says:

    An old Simpsons episode lampooned Democrats as “We can’t govern!” and Republicans as “We have no hearts!”

    That’s about right.

    Better to govern well without a heart than let everything go to shite.

  73. Moses says:
    @Corvinus

    tl;dr

    WASPs Bad. Not WASPs Good.

    Because my grandfather had to join Hillcrest instead of LA Country Club, or something.

    You are your own caricature, Corvi.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  74. @No_Reg Caesar

    Is dial-up still a thing? First such complaint in 20 years.

    • Replies: @William Badwhite
  75. @RudyM

    At the same time, asking police to be emergency counselors or psychotherapists is asking way too much of them, especially given what their primary job is. They already deal with a ridiculous amount of stress.

    No, but in my state, and I am sure others, and in other countries that I know of, police have statutory duties under the state Mental Health Act that gives them the duty to bring mentally ill persons or persons with suicidal ideas to a Mental Health Stabilization Unit. Lay persons do not have the power to arrest that person, put them in handcuffs, and take them to a place of safety, so it has to be done by cops.

  76. Hail says: • Website
    @CK

    attempted suicide is a crime

    What is the crime for attempting to suicide someone? What if it is done in the name of the security of our greatest ally?

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  77. Marty says:
    @J.Ross

    Policing is weird. In 1984 I got a deputy sheriff, probationary no less, reinstated to his position after he’d been fired for using “excessive force” to subdue an inmate who was, concededly, high on PCP. The inmate got a broken collarbone, but the agency had no written standards for the situation.

  78. Yngvar says:
    @Bigdicknick

    With a knock-down dose of Fentanyl and then Narcan when the cuffs are on? Maybe.

  79. @J.Ross

    I forgot that he also carried brass knuckles. Like many cops back then, my old man was a former Marine who had actually done hand-to-hand in combat. He took down his share drug-crazed wackos without a shot. Policewomen even to this day don’t have a lot of real-world hand-to-hand, much less the strength and weight that gives them a serious chance to prevail.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
  80. @Hail

    It would be murder (unlawful death with malice aforethought), but with the appropriate extenuating circumstances it is merely pest control.

  81. peterike says:
    @Prosa123

    Being only five feet tall Zangara stood on a wobbly chair.and his shots went wild. He missed Roosevelt but fatally shot Chicago mayor Anton Cermak

    And think how better the world might be right now had Zangara’s aim been true. Somebody saved Roosevelt so Sondheim could write a song about it.

  82. Corvinus says:
    @Moses

    “WASPs Bad. Not WASPs Good.”

    You mean only certain types of whites Good, all others Bad, if they don’t conform to your definition of whiteness.

    “tl;dr”

    Remain in your own little bubble.

  83. Jack D says:
    @JMcG

    I hear what you are saying, and being a cop is not a job that I would want, but it’s not a particularly dangerous job compared to some other (less well paying) occupations such as taxi driver. Because unions still have strength in the government sector (and hardly any other) it’s very common for gov. employees to be paid and treated a lot better than employees doing comparable work in the private sectors. These jobs are often seen as plum jobs where they get many more applicants than open slots.

    Cops in the past often found themselves in that same bull ring and cops in other countries are sometimes in that ring too. But the response wasn’t always to shoot first and ask questions later – this has changed over time and in part due to explicit training that cops now get. In the past, and in other places, cops were supposed to utilize their judgment – does the guy with the weapon actually intend to kill you? It’s all related to Steve’s Type I and Type II errors. Maybe for every false positive there are ten or a hundred false negatives which we can never really prove (since the victim is dead, we will never know if he was going to shoot or not). But our society doesn’t seem to have a good understanding any more on how to balance Type I and Type II errors – we tend to go overboard one way or the other. We are losing our ability to operate in shades of gray, where the cop doesn’t kill you but he beats the crap out of you with his nightstick so you’ll never do that again. Can’t have that on video – see Rodney King.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  84. Steve, for some one who constantly talks about magic dirt, bell curves, high time/low time preferences you sure are amazingly clueless about what it takes to police a polyglot horde with an IQ south of 100.

    Maybe get out of SoCal a bit or join a reserve police squad now that you’re lean and mean, work your first domestic involving a bunch of the above horde with 1 baby mama, 1 baby daddy, 1 boyfriend, and maybe some surly brothers of the baby mama standing off to one side and a weeping fat grandmother, all screaming at each other in English and Spanish.

    Let me know how it goes.

  85. @Reg Cæsar

    He/she/it makes a point. You’re at 5,000+ comments YTD. I’m not sure how many are youtube links and silliness like “hey here’s a pic of an ampersand” though.

    Maybe you could aim for quality over quantity? Anyway proceed as you wish – you’ve been on my ignore list almost as long as Corkanus

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  86. @Counterinsurgency

    Tasers also fail against puffy jackets and some one with the instinct/experience to throw themselves backwards to cause one of the barbs to dislocate.

    Tasers also carry the risk of excited delirium, where PD are on the hook because they’re expected to know mijo has a non issue like a 1st degree heart block because his mother was screaming hysterically and that counts as “knowledge of his medical history”. The amount of PCP and coke he was doing is irrelevant tho.

    • Replies: @Marty
  87. @Oleaginous Outrager

    We live in a dysfunctional world where Corporations and Profit dominate.

    Absent an audience, would the performance still continue?

    Have suicide booths on every street corner or at least as prevalent as feticide operations.

  88. Art Deco says:
    @Jack D

    but it’s not a particularly dangerous job compared to some other (less well paying) occupations such as taxi driver.

    No, you mean other jobs have a higher mortality rate. Cops are armed and trained to use those weapons. Cab drivers and garbage collectors are not (and garbage collectors are under siege from their own equipment, not from malefactors).

  89. @William Badwhite

    He/she/it

    What’s the correct pronoun for a sock puppet?

  90. Marty says:
    @Jack Hanson

    This entire thread not one person has mentioned every cop’s favorite ride-along partner, Auntie Immunity. Cops everywhere joke about “QI,” the federal version. California has two or three other statutory immunities which block claims filed in state court. Danger from the psychotic himself is real, danger from a civil judgment really isn’t. Of course, in Texas you can lose your job because you failed to waive the Vehicle Code for a football player whose girlfriend’s aunt is in the hospital, so there’s that.

    • Agree: Autochthon
  91. Not Raul says:

    I don’t think that suicide by cop has much to do with the Ferguson Effect, because it is mainly a white phenomenon.

    If black people were doing it, then I could see how police might be incentivized not to respond to suicidal blacks.

  92. @The Alarmist

    Phencyclidine was only just invented in the 1950s; your old man was not beating up anyone crazed from it then, with or without brass knuckles.

    The drug-addled freaks he confronted were, what? High on marihuana with a laughably low level of tetra-hydrocannibinol? Mescaline? Booze? To compare these to phencyclidine in this context is preposterous.

    In some contexts it really is the (((Jews))) every damned time, but in others it is the ««Boomers»» every damned time. Tell us again how, golly, your ole man was tough as nails and sure would shellac any whippersnapper today. ‘Course, ’twere different times, an’ folks didn’t complain when a feller brutally fractured the skull of a stoned beatnik what had it comin’, so the police carried brass knuckleszzzz….”

  93. @Counterinsurgency

    A deadly weapon is one likely to produce death or great bodily harm. People v. Fuqua, 58 Cal. 245.

    A deadly weapon is one which in the manner used is capable of producing death, or
    of inflicting great bodily injury, or seriously wounding. McReynolds v. State, 4 Tex. App. 327.

    A scrap piece of a 2″ x 4″ is a deadly weapon if one beats a man with it. A pencil, or a spoon, or a key is a deadly weapon if jabbed into someone’s eye. There is no magic taxonomy involved, and what classes a wielder has or has not taken mean nothing.

    As usual, Counterinsurgency is being melodramatic.

  94. El Dato says:
    @Autochthon

    The judge will look at things differently if you go after someone with a spoon or with a cobra. That’s why it is wise to not carry a knife but to improvise a knife. Beware.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
  95. Anonymous[267] • Disclaimer says:
    @Autochthon

    A scrap piece of a 2″ x 4″ is a deadly weapon if one beats a man with it. A pencil, or a spoon, or a key is a deadly weapon if jabbed into someone’s eye. There is no magic taxonomy involved, and what classes a wielder has or has not taken mean nothing.

    Why aren’t fists considered deadly weapons? A lot of people are killed or seriously disabled as a result of punches to the head.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  96. @El Dato

    I like Greer, but I think looking for ‘message’ in a disposable thrill-kill film is silly. Even if the ‘deplorables’ win in the end, it’s still obnoxious that a schmeckel of Hollywood Jews get to traipse around in the woods play-acting their IBS-riddled revenge fantasies.

    Can you imagine the opposite film being made? At the very least, there should be the right of response: Mel Gibson should be allowed to make a movie about the Holocaust, full of lurid scenes of Nazi stormtroopers inflating Jews with bicycle pumps.

  97. @El Dato

    Actually, as evidenced by the cases I cited, no: judges will not view the matter differently in any way. No judge is thinking, or ruling “I were gon’ sentence ye’ ta life in prison for beatin’ dat lady half ter def, if’n you’d used a night-stick, but seein’ as you-uns used a scrap o’ wood, even though they’s bofe deadly weapons, … ten years’ prison!”

    That was exactly the argument the defendant was making, and many more have made, and courts are not impressed.

    As to your admonition of “beware,” I must say I am unsure of what I, or anyone else, ought to beware of. If you mean to say folks should beware of the consequences for assaulting people (with or without any weapon), I agree. It’s a bad idea. Psychologically healthy people have known it since at least kindergarten.

    If it’s some kind of goofy advice to assault people with this or that weapon instead of another, its of a piece with advice from idiots about how drinking beer then driving is a better idea than drinking liquor then driving.

    One’s choice of weapon might go to the viability of an affirmative defense or otherwise indicate intent (if one barged into a home with guns blazing one pretty clearly meant to cause mayhem in the course of burglary; if one shimmied through a window quietly, then, when caught and attacked by the occupants, one used a nearby broom as an improvised staff for defense, it’s harder to argue any mayhem aggravated the burglary…).

    And, of course, firearms are always treated differently than automobiles, knives, vats of poison, or truckloads of explosives because they cause Magic Death for Reasons. (Just ask John Derbyshire.)

    Got a garage full of Tide and gasoline (i.e., napalm)? No worries, mate.

    Got a .22 for shooting the gophers eating your carrots? You’re a menace to society. We’d better keep an eye on you….

  98. @Anonymous

    Why aren’t fists considered deadly weapons?

    They can be if you have had martial arts or boxing training and somebody dies.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  99. @Autochthon

    Counterinsurgency is being melodramatic

    Merely emphatic. And I say again, if you are going to carry a collapsible baton, get POST certified training first and keep records of where and when you took the course _and_ remember to apply the forms they teach there, because there is a good chance you’ll be asked if you did..

    Counterinsurgency

  100. black sea says:
    @Jack D

    probably half or more of the time if the cops didn’t shoot, the person pointing the weapon wouldn’t shoot the cop anyway. But we live in a risk averse society – cops today aren’t going to put up with even a 10% risk that they are going to get shot if they don’t shoot first.

    Nor should they.

  101. @Counterinsurgency

    My fists are registered as lethal weapons, so if we fight and you die, I go to jail.

    • Replies: @Autochthon
  102. @Steve Sailer

    Well played, Sir.

    I just chuckled when I saw this was still going on. Like everything – fence-posts, scraps of lumber, etc. – feet, teeth, elbows, hands (fingers, knees, and toes?) can all be “deadly weapons” if used in a manner capable of causing death or grievous bodily harm (e.g., People v. Ross, 831 P. 2d 1310).

    Classes and training as such have nothing to do with it, nor does any magic sort of weapon classify and any other sort not. (Wow, where have I read all this before?)

    Look, I’m not a criminal lawyer. I have done a lot of that sort of work in a previous lifetime. I’m also a really good lawyer, and this is really rudimentary stuff: I’m as comfortable talking about it as an otolaryngologist – though no cardiologist – is telling people smoking is bad for their hearts. In any event it is all of course provided as general information and it is not legal advice, which is almost always necessarily very dependent upon the facts in a particular case.

    If people like Counterinsurgency don’t believe me, I don’t mind, not any more than I mind the crazy drug addicts who scream at me every day that the reptilians put a chip in their brains (or whatever); I shrug and go on about my business – people believe all kinds of crazy things.

    I chimed in on the topic because I do prefer to correct misinformation about things I know better about, as I imagine most sociable people do. If we overhear another give incorrect directions to a tourist – whether malicious or mistaken – we will politely offer a correction to spare the poor fellow a misadventure. That’s all.

    I don’t know if Counterinsurgency is, or purports to be, a lawyer. I hope he is not. If he is, he is either a quack, a practical joker, or both. For all I know (or care), Counterinsurgency is Tony Clifton…but that is, as the great man said, metaphysics….

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