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From the New York Times:

‘It’s Not the Same’: Why War Refugees Who Helped Revive St. Louis Are Leaving

A population of Bosnians, up to 70,000 at its peak, is moving out of the city in search of safer neighborhoods and better opportunities.

By Melina Delkic, Aug. 18, 2019

ST. LOUIS — It took Beriz Nukic about two years after landing on a new continent as a war refugee to open his own business.

Mr. Nukic learned English on the fly, and started with a simple concept — a Turkish coffee roastery for Bosnians, who drink Turkish coffee as though it is water. Soon he expanded the business into a deli, and then opened a restaurant, Berix, working 18-hour days and carrying a Bosnian-to-English dictionary in his pocket.

He did all that in Bevo Mill, a once-dilapidated neighborhood in the southern part of St. Louis that quickly became the stuff of American dreams. …

For St. Louis, a city that had bled population for decades — it had about 400,000 residents in 1990, down from more than 800,000 in the 1950s — the influx of what was estimated to be the largest population of Bosnians outside Bosnia seemed to work magic. For the first time in generations, the urban narrative of abandoned houses, stagnant business and vanishing people appeared to be changing.

But it didn’t last.

Today, St. Louis, like some other Midwestern cities, is battling a new round of contraction, with a stagnant economy, challenged schools and one of the highest murder rates in the country. And over the past few years, the people who fled brutal violence and concentration camps in their homeland and created Little Bosnia have been fleeing again, to the suburbs.

A deadly hammer attack in Bevo Mill — in which Zemir Begic, a young Bosnian man out with his fiancée, was killed by four teenagers — shook the community in 2014. Bosnians marched in the streets, arguing that the police had not done enough to keep the neighborhood safe.

Begic was murdered in the wake of the second round of Ferguson riots by four hammer-wielding Youths of Color shouting “Kill the white people!

This isn’t a bad article, but of course there is zero mention of Ferguson in it.

 
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  1. The NYT is actually admitting that refugees can also suffer Negro Fatigue?

    Oh wait, these refugees are white, aren’t they. As you were, everyone.

  2. “Teenagers”?

    Such a descriptive descriptor, yeah, I can just picture them…

    • LOL: Kylie
  3. It took Beriz Nukic about two years after landing on a new continent as a war refugee to open his own business.

    It took D’Trayvone and his fellow “teenagers” about 400 years to accomplish nothing, except the destruction of another great American city.

    • Agree: 95Theses
  4. istevefan says:

    A population of Bosnians, up to 70,000 at its peak, is moving out of the city in search of safer neighborhoods and better opportunities.

    I’m pretty sure these Bosnians are Bosniaks (muslims) and not Bosnian-Croatians or Bosnian-Serbs. I’ve always thought it was odd and historically wrong for Bosniaks to seek refuge in the West which is Christian, if only in tradition now and not in the overwhelming presence it once was.

    Bosniacs are the descendants of Croatians and Serbs who converted to the invader’s religion. In effect they would have been fine with the Ottomans taking over the whole of Europe. Meanwhile the Serbs, Croatians, Greeks and others in the area who did not convert continued to be a thorn in the side of the Ottomans which probably helped to prevent their further expansion into Europe. Ditto to the Polish Winged Cavalry too.

    So why do Bosnian muslims now seek refuge in the USA, Germany and other historically Christian lands? Wouldn’t it be more appropriate for them to seek refuge in Turkey or perhaps Saudi Arabia? I find it slightly offensive that they insist on seeking refuge into the very places their ancestors would have desired to be part of the Ottoman empire.

    And if they insist on coming here would it be too much to ask of them to convert to Christianity? After all, it’s not like their family hasn’t converted before to get along. Perhaps they could show their appreciation for our hospitality.

  5. Anon[382] • Disclaimer says:

    “Challenged schools”

    LOL.

  6. one of the highest murder rates in the country

    One of?? One of? Nay, stand up and be counted, I say! “We’re #1!”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

    the people who fled brutal violence and concentration camps in their homeland and created Little Bosnia have been fleeing again, to the suburbs.

    Ha. Joke’s on them, because AFFH, Section 8, and a dozen more HUD programs like them are following close behind. Programs promoted by the NYT and their ilk, incidentally. Enjoy!

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
  7. @istevefan

    Bosniacs are the descendants of Croatians and Serbs who converted to the invader’s religion.

    Much like Palestinians.

    Bosniaks moon Europe five times a day.

    • Replies: @Hodag
  8. For St. Louis, a city that had bled population for decades — it had about 400,000 residents in 1990, down from more than 800,000 in the 1950s

    In 1950, St Louis had six times the population of Austin, Texas. Now it has one-third.

    The difference is a factor of eighteen.

    Oh, and in 1950, St Louis still had a team in both major leagues.

  9. Dan Hayes says:

    Steve,

    In Bevo Mill, perhaps a larger contingent of Bosnian Orthodox Serbs would have ensured enough fear in the bros to prevent a local Ferguson effect.

  10. This is why our Bosniak immigrants can’t have nice things.

  11. @istevefan

    “Odd”? The USA supports Muslim genociders over Christians always and everywhere. Is this somehow news to you?

    • Replies: @Jake
  12. Cranmer says:

    St. Louis is very odd because it is one of the last white/black cities left. We have a growing (but still very small) Hispanic community. Practically no Asians (eastern or south) and the Muslims we do have are mostly white Bosnians. Also we rank at or near the top in ‘shameful’ most segregated cities lists. We are the # 1 or 2 murder city, but that is because the city (half white, half black) is separate from the county (mostly white, but experiencing more vibrancy every year). St Louis County (known as ‘the County’) is a virtual Mayberry in many locations.
    The funny thing about the Bosnians is when you see the girls at the mall, they don’t look stereotypically Muslim at all. They look and act like American girls celebrating ‘wear a hajib’ day.
    St. Louis- not exactly the 1950s, but still very similar to the mid to late 1960s.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  13. Dan Hayes says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Reg Caesar:

    Peter Pan on the Mississippi?

  14. anon19 says:
    @istevefan

    I agree. The “Bosniacs” are just Christian Slavs who “turned Turk” to score points with the invaders. They are collaborators. The real heroes were those conquered Europeans who endured five centuries of evil Turkish Muslim rule (like seeing their six year old boys stolen from them and turned into Janisarries) but never gave in.

    • Replies: @guest
  15. Kronos says:
    @istevefan

    Did the Ottoman Empire have the same problems with Africans?

    Ottoman territory extended into Africa. I’m well aware of the Arabian slave trade but did they encounter the same problems as US inner cities?

  16. Four “teenagers,” eh? I think most NYT readers can read between the lines whether or not they admit it in polite company.

  17. El Dato says:

    Bosnians marched in the streets, arguing that the police had not done enough to keep the neighborhood safe.

    One community wants de-policing (and decrease in random racism), another community wants up-policing (and possibly increase in random racism).

    Pretty soon you have ghettoville terrorized by pockets of people-killing gun gas and roaming teenager pockets.

    Could a combined program of de-policing and assault-style weapon reverse buyback (sellforth?) scheme help, at least temporarily?

    Meanwhile, Ocasio goes where it’s getting interesting as Nebojsa Malic writes:

    ‘Color revolution’ comes home? Democrats target Trump with regime-change tactics

    “Marginalized” communities have “no choice but to riot,” Ocasio-Cortez said on a radio program last month, adding that she meant “all over the world” including “communities of poverty” in the US.

  18. El Dato says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    This book seems suspiciously racist to darkelves.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  19. A deadly hammer attack in Bevo Mill — in which Zemir Begic, a young Bosnian man out with his fiancée, was killed by four teenagers …

    Those mysterious teens strike again!

  20. I wonder how David Simon would explain these “fuckmooks” leaving the inner city and taking “all the money with them”?

    • LOL: Bigdicknick
  21. RobUK says:

    After mass flights to the suburbs, even heavy investment in urban centers, with shiny new business districts and rapidly changing downtowns, have often failed to help cities

    We know they trashed the old one, maybe they won’t trash the new one.

    Oh, they trashed the new one.

    Let’s build another!

    • Replies: @Bigdicknick
  22. Kronos says:

    That’s unfortunate, Ferguson requires a meaner and tougher immigrant that can withstand black violence. Where in the world can we find such a miraculous people? Maybe the Yanomami? Give them some vaccinations and they’ll be good to go.

  23. @istevefan

    “…the people who fled brutal violence and concentration camps in their homeland and created Little Bosnia…”

    Mambo No 5 (A Little Bit Of)

    “Ladies and gentleman, this is mambo number five
    One, two, three, four, five everybody in the car, so come on
    Let’s ride to the liquor store around the corner
    The boys say they want some gin and juice
    But I really don’t wanna, beer bust like I had last week
    I must stay deep because talk is cheap

    A Little bit of Kabul in my life, a Little bit of Mogadishu by my side
    A Little bit of Fallujah is all I need, a Little bit of Saigon is what I see
    A Little bit of Grozny in the sun, a Little bit of Srebrenica all night long
    A Little bit of Aleppo here I am, a Little bit of Caracas (?) makes me your man

    Trumpet, the trumpet…”

  24. “ITS GETTING SO MUCH BETTER ALL THE TIME”

    Christian Pfeifer, leading (=most cited) German criminologist from Hannover has just further refined his toolkit which he works on day in day out to help the public get along even better with deeds like the hammer-death of four people – he used to call such instants “single cases” and has proceeded to the next mental level of the solution, which he calls now “the extremely single case”. And that’s true, actually, isn’t it!? – Professor Pfeiffer made a great discovery: The closer you look at tragic cases of ethnic killings, the more different and – seen strictly from the objective scientific standpoint of advanced criminology, mind you, the more diverse and interesting they get.

    Btw. Professor Dr.; Dr. h. c. mult. Christian Pfeiffer does so in a pas-de-trois, so to speak with The Beatles and the late Steven Pinker: It’s getting better all the time!

    • Replies: @countenance
  25. A population of Bosnians, up to 70,000 at its peak, is moving out of the city in search of safer neighborhoods ….

    Is it just me, or has the NYT found a cryptic way to articulate a racist view?

  26. @istevefan

    Turkey? Saudi Arabia? Those places are shitholes!

    • Replies: @BengaliCanadianDude
  27. So when will French, Williamson, et al, admit they want the immigrants to replace the black population?

    • Replies: @duncsbaby
  28. Hhsiii says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    From St.Louis to Baltimore. That franchise really knows how to pick’em. Are they moving to Camden next? Or just content with Camden Yards.

    They had a pretty good run there from mid-1960s to mid 80s or so.

  29. ” So why do Bosnian muslims now seek refuge in the USA, Germany and other historically Christian lands? ”

    As our host say: ” Invade The World, Invite The World”.

    Even more importantly, why don’t they return to Bosnia?

  30. Bosnians marched in the streets, arguing that the police had not done enough to keep the neighborhood safe.

    They tried:

  31. OT, but I’ve heard that Bosnian chicks are the biggest coalburners alive.

  32. Little Bosnia is proof that America is gaining from Diversity. Bosnia is a Muslim country & most Muslims are brown. It is a wonderful victory for an open door immigration policy. When St Louis was full of Stale Pale Male Christians it was a stagnant dump. The diversity of Mr Nykic – a man from a MUSLIM country – is what rescued it!

    I assume dumb goyim oafs like most of you scum reading this & your chief SPM propagandist Mr Sailed now see the error of your closed, bigoted, uncool ways: now to open the gates to all the Muslim, brown, black colors of da Rainbow.

  33. @Oleaginous Outrager

    Which didn’t actually happen until busing in the 1970’s contrary to his claim that people left Baltimore after Brown v Board of Education. Census show little change in Population of Baltimore for over a decade and big exodus started much later in 1970.

  34. Art Deco says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Travis, Williamson, and Hays Counties in Texas currently have a population of 2.03 million in sum (v. 210,000 in 1950). Kind of a cherry-picked example. Demographic expansion at an ordinary rate would have generated a two-fold increase in population, not a 10-fold increase.

    St. Louis City, St. Louis County, St. Charles County, and Jefferson County is Missouri have a population in sum of 1.92 million (v. 1.22 million in 1950). The rate of population growth in greater St. Louis since 1950 (a 57% increase v. a 111% increase nationally) is under par. However, rapid demographic expansion, while indicative of economic dynamism, isn’t crucial to quality of life. Onondaga County, NY has expanded by just 42% in those years. Its a pleasant place to live outside some circumscribed neighborhoods in Syracuse.

    What’s happened in the last 70 years is that intra-metropolitan migration patterns have been such that St. Louis City houses little beyond the slums. You have slums everywhere, though some places make a more vigorous attack on quality-of-life problems in their slums than the political class of St. Louis does. (St. Louis City accounts for 15% of the population of the commuter belt. The City of Detroit accounts for a similar share).

    • Replies: @Flip
    , @Jack D
    , @New Dealer
  35. I remember this incident well. “Black mob attacks and kills White guy” story gets turned into “poor immigrant killed by bigoted Americans” story. But the idiot did stop his car and get out to confront them…

    • LOL: fish
  36. Where do these Bosnians come up with those names? Comic books? Zarko, Ratko, etc. Seems like they don’t get along with others, or each other, no matter where they go.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  37. anonymous[380] • Disclaimer says:

    A deadly gun attack in Money, Mississippi — in which Emmett Till, a young African-American man out looking for a fiancée, was killed by two of the prospective fiancée’s relatives — shook the community in 1955. African-Americans marched in the streets, arguing that the police had not done enough to keep the neighborhood safe.

  38. TWS says:

    But not a hate crime you hater.

  39. TWS says:
    @istevefan

    A more confident society would convert them easily.

  40. Moses says:

    That darn passive voice again! Don’t SJW “journalist” schools teach active voice any more?

    I fixed it:

    Four teenagers brutally killed Zemir Begic, a young Bosnian man out with his fiancée, with a hammer in Bevo Mill

  41. Travis says:
    @istevefan

    excellent point…but Islamic States generally do not accept refugees. Saudi Arabia has not accepted any Syrian refugees and never will. Accepting refugees is something only Christian nations do.

    • Agree: anon19
  42. anonymous[167] • Disclaimer says:
    @istevefan

    So why do Bosnian muslims now seek refuge in the USA, Germany and other historically Christian lands?

    The majority don’t care much about Islam; it’s just a historical inheritance that they mostly shrug their shoulders about. They grew up under communism in which religion was derided as nonsense. The ones I’ve met are usually pretty vague about their religious background and deliberately so; they don’t want to advertise it. Like everyone else in Europe they’re into the modern lifestyle of cell phones, texting, eating out, etc., and don’t look eastward to the Islamic countries for anything. There’s exceptions, of course, but they’re a small percent and inhabit a small niche.

  43. JimL says:

    At least a third of St. Louis City is not slums.St Louis Hills, Southampton, the Hill and the Central West End are good neighborhoods. The main problems are that you are never that far from a bad area, the public schools are horrendous, and we are constantly on the brink of electing complete lunatics to the various city offices

  44. I think there’s some unfairness to Bosniaks in this thread. Bosniaks are as close as we get to “moderate Muslims”
    They have carved out a niche in the Navy, where they tend to do well and be well liked. And this isn’t a snarky “Serving America, another job Deplorables won’t do!” Post, either.
    They have very high levels of social metrics of “having lost the faith”. They enjoy a cool beer on a hot day and like a ham and cheese as much as the next guy. And it’s real. Anyone who’s gone to college has the experience of the eg Pakistani student on a Rumspringa to the West and will cheekily indulgenin strip clubs and other haraam but we all know they haven’t fundamentally changed and when they return they regain Shariah. Bosniaks have no trace of that.
    If we have to have Muslim immigration (and we shouldn’t, but for the time being it appears we will) then a city would thank their lucky stars to get Bosniaks over eg Somalis

    • Replies: @Inquiring Mind
  45. Flip says:
    @Art Deco

    Right. Much of “St. Louis” actually is St. Louis County which is separate from the geographically small St. Louis City. The population numbers are accurate but misleading. St. Louis City is smaller than Kansas City proper but it is a bigger metro area.

  46. Marcus says:

    Not specific to Ferguson, it’s one of the few good things about a large black population: deterring all but the most daring “middlemen” immigrants. Look at how small the foreign born population in the deep south is.

  47. countenance says: • Website

    The Bosnians would have eventually migrated southward into South St. Louis County eventually, even if Ferguson never happened. A combination of the fact that they settled into South St. Louis City, and had to rub shoulders with the growing black undertow there, and that housing prices and vacancies in South County were a buyer’s market, because so many older native born whites have been dying.

    • Replies: @Louis Renault
  48. countenance says: • Website
    @Dieter Kief

    “Single Cases”

    The German word for that is “Einzelfall.” The German media use “Einzelfall” in the same way the American media use “isolated incidents.” That is, when privileged minorities behave badly, and the media don’t want the natives to notice patterns.

    • Agree: GermanReader2
    • Replies: @David In TN
  49. anon[414] • Disclaimer says:

    When is it ever safe for all the refugees to return to their homes? I think the whole Bosnian affair has been over for awhile now.

    • Replies: @guest
  50. pyrrhus says:

    4 “teenagers” did it….Sure..

    • Replies: @Kolya Krassotkin
  51. These canaries were well instructed by centuries of conflict in when to run. They are smart enough to open their cage and get the hell out of the mine before it’s too late.
    When you see the canaries take off you might want to consider following them.

  52. Whiskey says: • Website

    Gavin Newsome signed into law a new use of force bill. Cops are now forbidden in practical terms from arresting Blacks.

    Another BLM victory.

  53. Jack D says:
    @Art Deco

    Laws differ between states regarding annexation of suburbs. In a lot of the newer cities in the West and South it was possible to annex new neighborhoods as the cities grew, going all the way out to the modern suburbs. In MO and MI it wasn’t, so that the “City” remained just the inner city, surrounded by a patchwork of dozens of municipalities like Ferguson and University City which should have been incorporated into the city 100 years ago, let alone the post-war suburbs.

    In the darkest postwar days for inner cities, Philadelphia for example still had vital (white) neighborhoods outside of the inner city core because it had done annexation 100 years ago. Unlike St. Louis and Baltimore, the City and County of Philadelphia have identical borders – the City takes up the entire County. Likewise NYC had Queens and Staten Island – actually 5 counties. But St. Louis and Detroit had nothing to fall back on – they were pretty much all inner city slum from border to border with maybe a few remaining small pockets of old ethnic neighborhood and a small downtown core. At that point, the city administration becomes 100% black and corrupt and there was little hope of recovery.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    , @AnotherDad
  54. Jack D says:
    @istevefan

    This all happened a long time ago. Most people follow the faith of their fathers. Literally their fathers, not their remote ancestors. Should the Christians of northern Europe revert to worshiping the Norse gods? Should the descendants of the Jews and Muslims of Spain revert to their old religion too? Or does this only apply to ex-Christians?

    Quite obviously, people seeking refuge choose places that are not only religiously compatible (and in that sense the US and Germany with their freedom of worship may fit the bill better than Saudi Arabia which takes a rather narrow view as to what type of Muslim practice is permissible) but also where their economic prospects are the best, especially for their children. This is completely natural and the same reason that Guatemalans want refuge in the US and not in Mexico. Whether the West should offer them refuge is another question but it’s not at all mysterious as to why they would want to move here and not to a much poorer country like Turkey. Most Bosnians, after many decades of Communism under Yugoslavia, wear their Islam rather lightly though there has been some upsurge in interest since the end of Yugoslavia. Nor is Christianity the state (“our”) religion of the US such that Bosniaks have any obligation to convert.

    BTW, if they ARE obligated to convert, which flavor of Christianity are they obligated to take up? Should they become Protestants like all good Americans, even though none of their ancestors were ever Protestant? Is it acceptable for them to revert to Eastern Orthodox? This is a type of Christianity but it’s almost as alien to America as Islam.

  55. @istevefan

    Agree, crying over Bosnian Muslim invaders er I mean refugees? Where are the tears for the millions of white American school kids who have been cheated of an education and a career by govt policies of forced busing and affirmative action policies at colleges and work? Cry me a river. Adios – Bosnians don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

  56. DPG says:

    Wow, even the Bosnians can’t handle it. You know what this means: we have to turn to the Chechens. Let’s import a bunch of Ramzan Kadyrov’s cousins and let them gentrify the rougher parts of St. Louis. In 10 years, the War Nerd will be able to write a “gentrification special edition” about it.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
  57. @countenance

    So ethnic cleansing works in more ways than one.

  58. Kylie says:
    @istevefan

    There are a lot of Serbs and Croats in St. Louis. This guy might well have been Orthodox if he was a Serb, Catholic if he was a Croat.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  59. BB753 says:
    @Jack D

    Their ancestors were as likely to have been Roman Catholics as Orthodox. It would be good to get rid of the saying: ” Once a Muslim, always a Muslim”, if only because so many Muslims are recent (i. e., less than 4 centuries) converts and it would greatly undermine Islam to have as many worshippers as possible leave the fold. Remember : Islam is the number 2 enemy (after the dual Deity of Globalism and Leftism).

    • Replies: @BengaliCanadianDude
  60. Jack D says:
    @Kylie

    Bosnia is about 50/50 Muslim/non-Muslim, with the non-Muslims being maybe 2/3 Serbian, 1/3 Croatian. And of the 50% that is Muslim, around 1/2 are Sunni and 1/2 are “non-denominational” Muslims – people who are ethnically Muslim but are not religious believers (of any religion – it’s very common in modern Europe, much more so that the US, for people to be completely unchurched). So the odds that any random Bosnian in St. Louis is a Sunni Muslim is probably around 1 in 4 rather than sure thing as the OP assumed. The minority that are devout are more visible because the women are covered, etc. If you look at the poor Bosnian guy who got hammered to death for being white, he and his blond girlfriend just look like ordinary white people. Based on his surname, he might have been Croatian.

    Croatians are white European Christians and presumably the kind of immigrants that we want to the extent that anyone around here wants any at all. I’m sure that within a generation or two Begic’s descendants would have just melted into the American white melting pot. Probably some of the Muslim Bosnians will be a little more resistant to melting but most of them will too eventually.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    , @Kylie
    , @HA
  61. Art Deco says:
    @Jack D

    The situation in greater St. Louis could be ameliorated by consolidating county and municipal police forces into two or three metropolitan forces which would operate throughout the four counties in question. The budget for such forces could be determined by a convocation of the four county legislatures in question, proceeding by weighted voting. Such a convocation could also be assigned responsibility for subsidiary enabling legislation governing the scope of such forces.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
  62. What is approved by Youtube/Google: Guaranteed not to contain harmful or dangerous content, hateful content, violent or graphic content, or threats!

    First, you find a house and scope it out
    Find a Chinese neighborhood
    ‘Cause they don’t believe in bank accounts
    Second, you find a crew and a driver
    Someone to ring the doorbell
    And someone that ain’t scared to do what it do
    Third, you pull up at the spot
    Park, watch, ring the doorbell and knock
    Four, make sure nobody is home (knock knock)
    They gone, okay it’s on
    Don’t be scared, nigga, you in now
    If the police come you gonna find out who your friends now
    That ain’t me talking, that’s your mind playing tricks on you
    You’re conscious cause you know you got 9s with 2 clips on you
    But fuck that, motherfuck that plasma
    And fuck that laptop, go and get that jewelry box
    You tryna get paid? Go take that jewelry box to the Slauson
    They’ll give you cash back in the same day

    [Hook]
    Meet the motherfucking flockers
    Make money-money, make money-money-money
    (Make some noise if you’ve ever stole something in your life)
    Take money-money, take money-money-money
    (Don’t be ashamed, it’s okay, baby)
    Make money-money, make money-money-money
    (Make some noise if you ever stole a dollar out your mama purse)
    (When she wasn’t lookin while y’all was in Church)
    Take money-money, take money-money-money

  63. anon[369] • Disclaimer says:
    @istevefan

    Out of all the effed-up peoples flooding into this country, you’re upset about some vaguely middle class, nominally-Muslim Bosnians? Enough is enough; this is where you draw the line !!!

    Priorities, man. They’re the least of our country’s concerns. Small numbers (relatively) and prime candidates for assimilation–they’ll drop the religious and cultural affiliation altogether in 1.5 gens to marry core Americans.

    • Agree: Jack D
    • Replies: @guest
  64. @Jack D

    Of course, ISFs point is … they should not be coming here at all.

    They are agents of foreign civilization. Actually the direct enemy–combatant–civilization of the West for a good bit of the last 1300 years.

    Freedom of religion at the *individual* level is fine idea. But it only works in the context of a particular civilization. In our case, the West.

    We’re supposed to have freedom of religion, not freedom of immigration.

    • Agree: istevefan, GermanReader2
  65. @pyrrhus

    Barack, Michelle, Sasha and Malia Obama could fall under the description “4 teenagers.”

  66. @El Dato

    This book seems suspiciously racist to darkelves.

    It was put out by Bill Veeck, whose son Mike staged “Disco Demolition Night” in 1979. Now that was offensive to “darkelves”.

    Mike was fired by a unanimous vote– including Dad.

  67. JimB says:

    Bosnian immigrants are disinvesting in South St. Louis.

  68. @Jack D

    Croatians are white European Christians and presumably the kind of immigrants that we want to the extent that anyone around here wants any at all.

    From Johnny Mercer to Jenna Elfman, Croatian-Americans have lent their graces to American culture.

  69. With all the Muslims moving in, it did not help the local Bevmo either.

  70. Lot says:

    Playlists of 10 Presidential candidates:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/19/us/politics/presidential-campaign-songs-playlists.html

    1. Trump has the best music, and it isn’t close.

    2. Warren has the best of the Dems, and kind of surprising given her age, has fairly good taste in picking hits from 1985-2000.

    3. Beto is 2nd youngest and was in a band, but his is disappointing and poll-tested.

    4. Hoolian has a low-IQ mix

    5. Kamala’s playlist is about 95% black-much more than the 25% black in her family tree.

    6. Booker has bland taste

    7. Pete B had a lot of old music and also bland

    8. The most common song is Dog Days Are Gone by Florence and the Machines.

  71. Whiskey says: • Website

    Related, NY CT CA etc are suing Trump over the green card rules. The NY AG some Black woman was screaming about how it would exclude millions of poor Black and Hispanic immigrants.

    Expect a Hawaiian judge to overturn this decision and that’s that.

    We lost. Decades ago. Now it’s just shooting survivors in the weeds.

    Learn Spanish. Change your name to a Hispanic one. Set a paper trail, get a DNA sample from a Hispanic friend with their permission and submit it to 23 and me as yours to create a paper trail you are not White.

    Admitting millions of poor non Whites who will be on welfare and giving them citizenship is who we are.

  72. istevefan says:
    @Jack D

    This all happened a long time ago.

    I’ll remember that the next time someone brings up the pogrom of 1905, or the dreyfuss affair or some other such event.

    These people are the descendants of those who literally betrayed their fellow European Christians and would have been fine with the islamic conquest of Europe. I do not seek to do harm to them. But at the same time I do not wish to provide them with refuge in our nations when we have millions of our own more deserving of our help.

    Most Bosnians, after many decades of Communism under Yugoslavia, wear their Islam rather lightly…

    Then it wouldn’t be that much trouble to convert. This would send a clear message that they are no longer on the side of one of our prime threats.

    Should the descendants of the Jews and Muslims of Spain revert to their old religion too? Or does this only apply to ex-Christians?

    If the descendants of the Jews of Spain decided to immigrate to Israel, then I suppose the Israelis could decide if the fact that they are now Christian is a showstopper.

    If the descendants of the Muslims of Spain decided to immigrate to any Islamic nation, then I suppose that nation could decide if the fact that they are now Christian is a showstopper.

    BTW, if they ARE obligated to convert, which flavor of Christianity are they obligated to take up?

    First, I never wrote that they were obligated to convert. I just noted that it would be a nice way to show appreciation. And since their families have a history of such conversions, it wouldn’t be too much to expect, now would it?

    Second, as for which flavor of Christianity, which is your favorite?

    • Replies: @Jack D
  73. @Oo-ee-oo-ah-ah-ting-tang-walla-walla-bing-bang

    I used to think that the tear-criers bringing Bosnian refugees to these shores were importing the ancient hatreds and conflicts that made “over there” such a mess. I guess I was wrong, or maybe, more time will prove me to be more wrong.

    Yes, but, the people crying tears for Bosniaks are also crying tears for Syrians, those Pakistanis and yes, even Somalis.

    But making distinctions is crimethink. Somalis are just as assimilable as Bosniaks, essentially Europeans who are not serious about an entirely different religion from the religion of prior European immigrants, whose progeny are equally not serious about. Just as the recipient of an award spoke before the Faculty Senate how if “Trump’s Travel Ban had applied to my grandparents from Hungary, I wouldn’t be here to receive this work about my scholarly accomplishments.”

    Yes, this distinguished social-scientist’s grandparents are indistinguishable from those against who the Travel Ban was directed.

  74. Ibound1 says:

    Why are we accepting Bosnians here as “refugees”?
    They have their own country which is 51% Muslim.
    Can someone explain this to me? Bosnians are marching in US streets to complain about the police?
    Well why don’t the Muslim Bosnians go home to their own country where they are a majority. Does Bosnia let Americans in as “refugees”?

  75. JimB says:
    @Kronos

    Sharia Law was invented to bring order to the African masses. Cruel and unusual punishment is the only thing third world people understand. It is also a type of community entertainment which satisfies the sadism and bloodlust of the commons. In Sharia law countries there are even bandsaws set up in town squares to efficiently remove the hands of thieves. Ironically, Sharia sets upper limits on sadism and cruelty. It is more merciful if you see what happens to thieves in sub-Saharan Africa. Better to lose a hand in a brief moment of exquisite pain than be bludgeoned to a pulp, castrated, and then set on fire.

    • Replies: @Truth
  76. @Jack D

    Of course, istevefan is probably not literally proposing that immigrants be required to convert to any religion upon entry to the United States. That would, you know, violate Amendment I. As AnotherDad wrote, the point is they should not be coming here at all.

    Regarding any immigrants at this point, Americans should ask themselves, “1)Do we need these people here? 2)Do we want them here? 3)What’s in it for us and our Posterity?” In the case of how ever many are Bosniaks, the answers are 1)no, 2)neutral at best, and 3)nothing — at best.

  77. @Jack D

    Laws differ between states regarding annexation of suburbs. In a lot of the newer cities in the West and South it was possible to annex new neighborhoods as the cities grew, going all the way out to the modern suburbs.

    I first became familiar with this when i moved down to Texas for grad school. The system has it’s advantages … but also it’s disadvantages.

    Why shouldn’t white people (or just middle class people) in some suburb be able to govern themselves according to white norms and not have to deal with the insanity and inanities imposed by black/Democrat rule. Self-government. White people aren’t slaves or serfs. At least we aren’t supposed to be.

    At root–other than misleading city population numbers (just look at MSA stats instead)–the issues here have nothing to do with city boundaries. Austin is booming place because of all the obvious advantages–no state income tax, Texas Hill Country, UT, state gov., hi tech–but also because it doesn’t have a lot of blacks. It was maybe 12%–national average–when i left, concentrated in a few neighborhoods in East Austin. Less than <50,000 total. And while numbers are no doubt higher, the black percentage is lower now as Austin has continued to boom bringing in more whites and Asians. In contrast the Great Migration brought a lot of blacks to St. Louis, and when the post-war suburbanization hit–integration and busing pushed whites to flee–St. Louis was left with a very large black core of 100s of thousands. That creates a lot of concentrated dysfunction.

    At root … HBD.

    ~~~

    The St.Lous vs. Austin tale is one that unmasks the fundamental lie at the heart of minoritarianism: "White gentiles are oppressing us!"

    Austin is basically the saga of white people going off and doing their own thing.

    If there was a bunch of undiscovered land out there somewhere, white gentiles could go settle it and they would steadily build it into a really nice place. That's what we do. No slaves, no "oppression" required. Then, sure as clock work the "nation of immigrants" and "diversity is our strength" a*holes would show up banging on the door.

    Minorities are not "the oppressed" they are gommers-onto. They run toward white gentiles and glom onto us and the good stuff we build, because … it beats working, bulding their own stuff.

    That’s what this minoritarian ideology–minorities good, majorities bad–is, the ideology of the parasite demanding that his host not leave, not complain, not even notice.

  78. Kylie says:
    @Jack D

    Yes, which is why I replied as I did to isteve.

    My maternal grandfather was a Serb, my grandmother a Croat.

  79. Jake says:
    @anonymous coward

    Yes, it does. The Anglo-Zionist Empire is not merely militantly pro-Jewish and pro-Israel, it also is pro-Mohammedan over Christians.

  80. @Art Deco

    Art Deco, I was intrigued by one of your comments a month ago and sampled your comment history (the “search commenters” function has since become quite misbehaved). You have social science training, and have done policy analysis. You search for data and evidence, and you try to reason soundly. You’re familiar with academia, urban policy, educational policy, demography, geography, and some history.

    Because of the broken search function I can’t locate the comment where you alluded to nonbiological reasons for black problems in the USA. In other comments you say that the problem with Africa is underdevelopment, and that most American blacks “are ordinary wage-earners just getting by.” Because of all the cant, I never bothered to study up on race relations. I have lived in all-black neighborhoods and traveled considerably in Africa and have observed much behavioral heterogeneity seemingly related to cultural and policy variations. Might you suggest to me some serious and sound social science and policy books, reports, articles about the urban question that are free of sentiment or bigotry?

    Thanks for considering my request.

  81. @Kronos

    Most of the Ottoman slaves were Slovs from Europe. Maybe in a North Africa they had some Negroid slaves . The males were often castrated

  82. @Kronos

    Ottoman territory extended into Africa.

    Different type of African up there.

    • Replies: @Kronos
  83. Anonymous[229] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hannah Katz

    The names are meaningful.

    Zarko has as its root the word for burning ember, flame ‘zar’, etc.
    Ratko has as its root the word for war ‘rat’

  84. @Buzz Mohawk

    Agreed.
    And I don’t care that they are racially White. Assuming they’re muslim, that’s reason enough for us not to want them here.

  85. OFF TOPIC:

    from Minnesota Public Radio —

    Outdoor Afro fosters community through outdoor recreation
    Simone Cazares
    Maple Grove, Minn.
    August 20, 2019 12:07 p.m.

    On a sunny day at the Fish Lake Regional Park in Maple Grove, members of the all African-American outdoor meetup group gathered to paddleboard on the lake.

    As they grabbed life jackets, some were new to paddleboarding and feeling a little nervous. But other members of Outdoor Afro came together to support and encourage them as they all got out on the water.

    Tiffany Thomas of Minneapolis was one of the participants. Although she doesn’t get to spend a lot of time outside, she said she makes it a priority to join the group when she can. For her, it’s a way to try new things and venture out of her comfort zone with people who look like her.

    “Coming to Minnesota, there aren’t many brown people here. It’s predominantly white, or light,” she said with a laugh. “It’s just nice to come out and enjoy my people.”

    “One of the things I’d like to do is to eliminate that barrier of entry,” he said. “A lot of outdoor activities cost money so, for me, it’s how do I find local ways for people to enjoy some of these without having to spend hundreds of dollars on gear or equipment.”

    That inclusiveness is something Thomas said encouraged her to come out with the group more, too.

    “At first I was a little nervous to be in a group of people I don’t know, but everyone is very nice and accommodating,” she said. “They take care of you. If you don’t have whatever you need, your equipment or whatever. It’s a nice home-y group.”

    “Outdoor Afro is a really great way for brown and black people to get together and do outdoor things that not many people think we do,” she said. “I come out here, have a good time and feel very protected when I’m with Outdoor Afro.”

    And for Scott, that community of African-Americans coming together to enjoy the outdoors is what makes it all worth it.

    “You don’t feel alone, and that’s the biggest part.”

    🙂

  86. LA Smitty says:

    “Bosnians” you mean Orthodox Christians and not “Bosniaks” which tend to lean Muslim, right?

    There is a huge cultural difference, Islam is a human husbandry “slave culture”, humans are subject to political and environmental conditions and over time Islam can become a “breed” or “race”.

    Paying people to breed and marry their cousins has long term effects on the herd.

  87. @Ripple Earthdevil

    It’s impossible for NYT readers to “read between the lines” when their heads are buried in the sand.

  88. Somewhat OT:

    Yet another “reformed” gang member turns out to be a tax-leeching criminal:
    https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-08-19/accused-ms-13-gang-member-worked-as-gang-interventionist-until-arrest

    The L.A. Times has an annoying paywall, so here’s the meat of the story:

    As a “peace ambassador” for a Los Angeles nonprofit funded with public money, it was Wilfredo Vides’ job to steer young people clear of gangs. For those who’d joined one, his role was to convince them to leave, as he had.

    Or as he said he had.

    Vides was one of 22 individuals arrested last month in a federal takedown of MS-13’s Fulton clique, a cell of the transnational gang that claims swaths of the San Fernando Valley as its turf and is accused of murdering and dismembering its enemies in the mountains above Los Angeles. Vides was far from the reformed gang member he claimed to be, authorities say.

    He acted as the Fulton clique’s “facilitator, advisor, supporter, and protector,” prosecutors allege, hiding gang members from the police, coordinating drug deals with an MS-13 clique in Maryland, and “intimidating those he perceived to be cooperating with law enforcement.”

    At the time of his arrest, Vides was employed as a gang intervention counselor by Communities in Schools of the San Fernando Valley and Greater Los Angeles, a well-established nonprofit that has received millions of dollars in city, county and federal contracts since its founding in 1994.

    So it turns out that rewarding criminality with taxpayer funds is a bad idea. Who knew?

  89. @Ripple Earthdevil

    NYT readers might read “between the lines” but they refuse to think it through to a logical conclusion.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
  90. Tex says:
    @Kronos

    The Ottomans weren’t so heavily into the trade, but in earlier times the Arab traders on the E African coast (they call it the Zanj) shipped thousands upon thousands up to the slave markets at Basra. The southern reaches of the Tigris & Euphrates were filled with Zanji slaves. Eventually they rebelled and held the area against the Arabs for about a decade (c 870 AD).

  91. @countenance

    What little MSM notice of the Christian-Newsom torture-murders there was used the “isolated incident” meme. Local liberals termed it “just another crime.”

    Although these terms are contradictory, they are sometimes used interchangeably by the same people–One day “isolated incident, the next “just another crime.”

  92. @Reg Cæsar

    From Johnny Mercer to Jenna Elfman, Croatian-Americans have lent their graces to American culture.

    Don’t forget Stipe Miocic, who beat Daniel Cormier Saturday night to regain the UFC Heavyweight Championship. I like to call him “Michael” Stipe Miocic (his name is actually pronounced STEE-pay).

  93. Jack D says:
    @istevefan

    Muslim conquest of Bosnia was the 1400’s not the 1900’s – that’s a big difference. There are still (a handful of) people alive who were living in 1905 and lots more whose parents were. Or else don’t remind me any more about Founding Stock – that happened before 1905 also.

    “A nice way to show appreciation” is when you send someone a box of candy or write them a heartfelt thank you note. Changing your religion is a much bigger deal than that.

    Second, as for which flavor of Christianity, which is your favorite?

    I kinda like Unitarians and Quakers. If I had to “show appreciation” I’d pick one of those, or maybe one of those mainstream Protestant denominations with lesbian ministers where they don’t bother you much with all that Jesus stuff anymore and it’s enough to just support transexuality and such.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  94. Alden says:
    @Kronos

    The Turks wisely only bought young teen black slave boys who’d been castrated. The Turks used their women black slaves. But not wanting black men around, the Turks killed at birth or aborted any babies the black women conceived.

    Killing new born babies is a gross violation of Muslim religious and civil law.

    Thats why Turkey’s always been more functional than the Arab countries. Plus their European slaves administrated their Empire. Contrast that with America whose government is administered by affirmative action retard descendants of African slaves.

    Genes rule.

  95. J.Ross says:
    @istevefan

    Because the actual gospel of Islam, recreated in the Hajj, is to incrementally take over territory you entered as a harmless-looking refugee.

  96. J.Ross says:
    @Ripple Earthdevil

    Then the journalists of our self-styled paper of record are as worthless as the propaganda ministry of any tin pot dictatorship.

  97. J.Ross says:
    @Jack D

    This is an unacceptable answer because the whole point of this special situation is people refusing to accept the conquest, which effectively means it did not happen (in a final sense) in the fifteenth century.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  98. Kronos says:
    @William Badwhite

    Yeah, big difference between top Africa and sub saharan Africa, but there was major trade and slavery into the lower part. Migration must have occurred.

  99. @Mr McKenna

    This story definitely fits the NYT’s new paradigm that “Everything is Due to Slavery’s Legacy:”

    1. Slavery brought blacks to America.

    2. Blacks commit violent crimes.

    3. Violent crime makes Bosnian refugees flee to suburbs.

    At first I was skeptical, but now I think the NYT may be right — everything bad about America is due to “slavery’s legacy.”

  100. @David In TN

    It’s impossible for NYT readers to “read between the lines” when their heads are buried in the sand.

    That’s a very euphemistic way of describing where their heads are actually buried.

  101. El Dato says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    Slavery is the root of all teenagers.

  102. Jack D says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    The problem is that you haven’t been properly indoctrinated (oops, I mean taught). The NY Times has an article about this as part of the 1619 Project:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/19/magazine/slavery-american-schools.html

    According to the SPLC (an unquestionable source) ” 92 percent of students did not know that slavery was the [Civil] war’s central cause, according to the survey.”

    I can almost believe this, in that 92% of students don’t know anything about anything anymore, but it’s probably not due to lack of teaching.

    They also quote from an 1863 textbook for children:

    Q. Which race is the most civilized?
    A. The Caucasian.
    Q. Is the African savage in this country?
    A. No; they are docile and religious here.
    Q. How are they in Africa where they first come from?
    A. They are very ignorant, cruel and wretched.

    More than a century and a half later, textbooks no longer publish such overt racist lies, but the United States still struggles to teach children about slavery.

    I agree with the NY Times in part. The answer to Question 2 is definitely a racist lie. No one calls African Americans docile anymore. 1 and 3 I think are holding up pretty well although the Asians are gaining on us regarding Question 1.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
  103. guest says:
    @anon19

    Yes, see for instance:

    “Bosnians, who drink Turkish coffee as though it is water.”

    Of course they do. They were occupied by the Ottomans and adopted their culture. False consciousness. But do you see them drinking Coke like it’s water?

  104. guest says:
    @anon

    The White Devil Serb is ever watchful for new victims to stumble unawares into its rape camps.

  105. Hodag says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    To be fair, the Bosniaks at issue are mooning Iowa.

    Plus, isn’t having to live in St. Louis punishment enough?

  106. guest says:
    @anon

    You speak as though there’s a finite reserve of upsetedness. We can stop letting everyone in, you know.

  107. Hodag says:
    @Kronos

    The short answer is no because they castrated African male slaves. The Sultan wanted fairer concubines. Circassians were supposedly the standard but the TarTar Yoke for fair Rus or Lithuanian had male and female part. Christian children were “free” but the Golden Horde and Crimean Tartars wanted gold and trade goods for their slaves.

    Also, all this collaborator talk misses the mark. Bosniaks converted but many Serbs and Croats fought for the Sultan even when not a slave. The Balkans were treated as a sort of vassal states and they ran a lot of their own affairs. Not a nice system but no systems were nice then. The idea of nations and nationalism (a post-Westphalian idea) was foreign and when they showed up in Serbia etc there was no understanding of what they wanted. It baffled the Divan. Then the archduke got whacked…

  108. @Jack D

    According to the SPLC (an unquestionable source) ” 92 percent of students did not know that slavery was the [Civil] war’s central cause, according to the survey.”

    Secession was indisputably the “central cause” of the Civil War. The North refused to allow secession and prosecuted the war in order to “preserve the union,” not to end slavery (which was still legal in the North throughout the war). Why is this even controversial?

    The logic is simple:

    1. If the South kept slavery but never seceded = No Civil War

    2. If the South ended slavery but still seceded = Civil War

    3. QED: Secession, not slavery, was the “cause” of the Civil war.

    As the saying goes, journalism is supposedly “the first draft or history.” But the NYT, with its typical arrogance, now thinks it also gets the “last draft of history” as well.

    Man, I hate that anti-American commie rag.

    • Agree: Kronos
    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @guest
    , @Oddsbodkins
    , @Fun
  109. @Hypnotoad666

    I think your proposition about the cause of “everything bad about America” can be more efficiently reduced to:

    brought blacks to America

    Perhaps the single most destructive activity in American history (for Whites), in hindsight. All the time, energy, blood, money and opportunity costs uselessly spent on a population unfit for modernity certainly dwarves whatever free cotton and tobacco picking we got out of them way back when.

    • Agree: Kylie
  110. Jack D says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    But the South seceded BECAUSE they wanted to keep slavery. The Confederate Constitution was largely copied from the US Constitution, the principal difference being that the Confederate one expressly enshrined Negro slavery.

    Robert H. Smith of Alabama, an important member of the Confederate Constitutional Committee, wrote at the time:

    We have dissolved the late Union chiefly because of the negro quarrel

    Negro quarrel being the euphemism for the debate over slavery and abolition. The South felt that with the election of the abolitionist Lincoln the handwriting was on the wall and it was only a matter of time before slavery would have been abolished in the US (and they were probably right – Brazil was the last country in the Western world to abolish slavery in 1888). I doubt it could have lasted much longer in the US, although ironically secession backfired and caused slavery to end a couple of decades sooner than it might have otherwise.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20010503021334/http://www.openthought.org/summa/confederate.html

    So it is not wrong to teach this. I don’t believe the SPLC when they say that 92% of kids don’t know this – this is basic conventional wisdom. Now maybe 1/2 the kids in America (disproportionately the non-white half) don’t learn ANYTHING in school so it wouldn’t be surprising for them not to learn this either, but 50% is not 92%.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Kronos
  111. Jack D says:
    @Cranmer

    They look and act like American girls celebrating ‘wear a hajib’ day.

    I would bet you that a good % of those girls will shed the hijab the moment they are no longer living under their parent’s roof. And an even higher % of their kids won’t put it on in the 1st place. It will stick for some % but many will get away from it the minute they are able (and they meet a guy at the mall).

  112. Jack D says:
    @J.Ross

    I’m not sure I follow you but I’d say a conversion that happened to your family 500 years ago is pretty final. Or can the Pope can hope that Northern Europe will someday repent and return to the True Religion? Is the Thirty Years War still up for a redo or only the Muslim conquest of the Balkans? If you are a Protestant, would you consider reverting to Catholicism as a nice gesture to Pope Francis or do you rule this out?

    • Replies: @istevefan
  113. HA says:
    @Jack D

    “Based on his surname, he might have been Croatian.”

    No, based on what I know of the former Yugoslavia, Begic (i.e., “of the Beg”, or “son of the Beg”) is actually one of those surnames that is distinctly Turko-Bosnian, not Croatian or Serbian, given that “beg” (or “bey”) is the Turkish (or Turko-Mongol) word for “chieftain”.

    As another example, the first president of Bosnia was Alija Izet-beg-ovic. While there are Bosnian Muslims with generic Serbo-Croatian surnames (in which case they’re more likely to have a Muslim first name like Zemir), many have surnames that are distinctly middle Eastern or Turkish with an “ic” or “ovic” tacked on, and even a non-speaker can start to pick up on that after spending some time there.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @bored identity
  114. @Reg Cæsar

    They lost the NBA (Hawks->Atlanta) and the NFL twice.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  115. @RobUK

    which is worse for social mobility ? The Bad Schools(TM) or the Bad Buildings(TM) ?

  116. @BB753

    dual deity of Judaism and leftism you must mean

    • Replies: @BB753
  117. @istevefan

    Get over yourself. Before christianity, europeans followed norse gods and other pagan gods. What should they convert back into anyways? What denomination? what a load of crap

    • Replies: @istevefan
  118. guest says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    No. Because the North could have accepted secession and never invaded or conquered the Confederacy. It was there decision to make war that started it.

  119. @Reg Cæsar

    Croatian women are stunning and the Croats are quite friendly overall. They are exactly the sort of immigrants that should be welcome in the US.

    • Replies: @anon
  120. No. Because the North could have accepted secession and never invaded or conquered the Confederacy. It was there decision to make war that started it.

    That’s a reasonable point. It’s interesting to ponder the counter-factual of whether the country (both countries!?) would be better off today if the North had just let the South go and skipped the whole civil war.

    It’s also true, though, that at some point “causation” is a philosophical choice because the chain of causation for everything stretches back forever. For example, you could also say the civil war was caused by Lincoln’s election, or the Missouri Compromise, or the Declaration of Independence, or the founding of Jamestown. After all, the country couldn’t split in two if it were never founded in the first place.

  121. Kronos says:
    @Oleaginous Outrager

    Any idea on his stance on gentrification?

    “Your destroying historically shitty black neighborhoods man, not cool you fuckmook!”

  122. Truth says:
    @JimB

    Sharia Law was invented to bring order to the African masses.

    JimB

    Thats why Turkey’s always been more functional than the Arab countries.

    Hey Steve, I love it when your esteemed PhD’s in Arabic Studies chime in about their area of expertise.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @anonymous
  123. Boz says:
    @istevefan

    As far as I could tell, most of them are orthodox, not muslim.

  124. Jack D says:
    @HA

    There are some prominent Croatians named Begic:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilko_Begi%C4%87

    Ottoman names are not always what you think. You’d think that someone named Haji would be a Muslim who had been on the Haj (Pilgrimage) to Mecca, but there are Christians with that name – apparently any pilgrimage would do. Croatians I assume had their own Begs (Chieftains).

    That being said, I don’t know whether this Begic was Christian or Muslim. Apparently his killers didn’t either.

    • Replies: @HA
  125. @simple_pseudonymic_handle

    They lost the NBA (Hawks->Atlanta) and the NFL twice.

    Don’t forget the Spirits who, despite their liquidation, are among the most lucrative sports franchises ever. They get one-seventh of the revenue of the four ABA teams who got into the NBA. Forever. That may be part of the reason that, other than the Spurs (the only game in town), those teams haven’t performed very well since. Moving to Brooklyn (where they’re also the only game in town) may have changed this. But it will only make the Spirits’ “heirs” that much richer.

    One of the many reasons to dismiss “Major League Soccer” is their lack of a team in what was once the best soccer city in America. Check out our 1950 World Cup squad, which sent England home in disgrace.

  126. Hhsiii says:

    Immigrants don’t know what blacks are really like. They come here thinking American whites are racist and blacks are generally cool, just oppressed. My pregnant wife (from Latvia) years ago had to take a bus from Jamaica, Queens to outside JFK for work. She said she got shoved and pushed around despite being obviously expecting. The only white person on the bus.

    We are staying on vacation near a beach in a relatively low rent part of Cape Cod. Half the people are speaking Russian. We joked it’s because Russians find the cheapest nice place with no blacks.

  127. HA says:
    @Jack D

    “There are some prominent Croatians named Begic”

    Yes, which indicates that one or more of their ancestors was quite likely a Bosnian Muslim or a Turk, or at least in some way associated with one (in the way that Sarrazin implies a Muslim ancestor or at least an ancestor that in some way looked like one). And the fact that someone is Croatian doesn’t mean that the ancestor whose name he or she inherited could not have come from somewhere else at some point. It works the other way too — the surname Horváth or Horvat is the most common in Hungary, and it implies an ethnic (or at least geographical) Croatian connection of some sort. In fact,I suspect that’s a common surname even in Croatia, which means things can get extra complicated.

    An exception or two doesn’t change anything I said. Look again at the “famous Begić ” page, which is where I’m guessing you got that name in the first place, you’ll see that all those listed except for two are from Bosnian Muslims or people from Bosnia (and one of the two is from Rijeka/Fiume, which like many other coastal cities, has attracted people from a variety of origins over the centuries).

    • Replies: @HA
  128. @Hypnotoad666

    In 1850 John C. Calhoun predicted that disagreement over slavery was going to lead to the dissolution of the union.

    For the South, it was about preserving slavery. For the north, it was about preserving the union.

  129. istevefan says:
    @Jack D

    Is the Thirty Years War still up for a redo or only the Muslim conquest of the Balkans?

    Would you have said the same to the Zionists? After all the muslim conquest of the middle east predates their conquest of the Balkans.

  130. istevefan says:
    @BengaliCanadianDude

    Before christianity, europeans followed norse gods and other pagan gods.

    How could they have followed Christianity before Christ, and before they received his word? Why would they now want to return to those false beliefs?

  131. HA says:
    @HA

    “Croatians I assume had their own Begs (Chieftains).”

    And also, “beg” is indeed a Muslim thing–I’m pretty sure the Ottoman begs were not Christians, and whatever Christian vassals they had (e.g. Vlad the Impaler, Prince Marko) retained their titles of “Voivoda” or Prince or whatever.

    There’s probably an exception or two to that, as well, and Skander-beg (i.e. Beg Aleksander) might count as one, but then, he was a Muslim for a while before he renounced his conversion, so, not really.

  132. @HA

    Although bored identity ain’t certified expert for all those ancient Baskians, Serberians & Croastaceans – like Tdzak D and rest of y’all – it seems that at least one of those Dinaroid Sons of Chieftains has already conquered….Alaska

  133. anon[155] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    Tariffs imposed by the North hurt Southern economics and were an important cause of the war. Slavery was a proxy issue between the North and South. The real dispute was over who would run the country, who would have sovereignty. The South was losing the contest for national power and knew it. They were on their way to being second class citizens in the new Northern industrial society.
    They seceded so they could be masters in their own house. They seceded for self-determination, so no one else could tell them what to do and how to live their lives.
    It has always been a self-serving lie by the Northern victors to say slavery caused the war. The fact that slavery was the most debated issue of the day is irrelevant. Just look at the stupid debates in today’s media, and how little they have to do with the real conflicts.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Jesse
  134. anon[155] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Croatian women are stunning and

    That’s all I need to hear. Bring them in!

  135. anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Truth

    About ten years ago Steve took a week long vacation to Turkey. What other majority Islamic nations has he visited?

  136. anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Truth

    About ten years ago Steve took a week long vacation in Turkey. I don’t believe he’s ever visited any other Muslim majority nation.

  137. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    The North wanted to be an industrial power, and those are never began or maintained without tariffs and/or nontariff restrictions on foreign competition. They’re not sufficient-Brazil and Argentina keep out all manufactured foreign products, but still can’t export much and their products are mostly shitty-but they are necessary. The south wanted to be an agricultural power and that meant favoring free trade. Peaceful separation would have been best for both, but as it turned out, was impossible.

    Had the South rebelled in 1850 they’d have won. By 1870, the war would have been unthinkable. It was a ” Titanic event” in that sense: had the Titanic seen the iceberg sooner or later it would have stayed afloat either way.

    Without a tariff structure, it’s always cheaper to import something than build it yourself today, and when the future means next quarter, today is all that matters.

    On the other hand when all foreign competition is excluded, local products tend to suck. South American cars, except for the ones built by German companies, most all suck.

    The most reliable cars sold in the US are Toyotas and Hondas. Most American cars are between mediocre and poor in reliability. But many Hondas and Toyotas are built in the US now. Ask auto engineers why they can make a reliable car where Detroit can’t, and you’ll get several answers, some contradictory.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  138. Jesse says:
    @anon

    The South was losing influence BECAUSE of slavery. At the risk of going full Hinton Rowan Helper, slavery was the worst thing to ever happen to white America. It retarded development, kept the white working man down, and set up centuries of racial conflict.

  139. duncsbaby says:
    @Redneck farmer

    French adopted an African kid. The more he realizes the differences beteeen his kid & the rest of his family, look for him to get even more hysterical about racism. He will learn nothing.

  140. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous

    Agree with most of what you say, but the US manufacturers (at least some of them) have caught up somewhat with the Japanese and are not as bad as they once were. This is damning with faint praise but the situation is much better than the old days when Toyota/Honda were miles ahead. They’re still ahead but at least their taillights are in sight.

    As for how to make a reliable car, here are a couple of hints:

    1. Never allow the UAW in your factories.

    2. Don’t automatically buy parts from the low bidder regardless of quality. Don’t squeeze your suppliers to sell you parts for the lowest possible price because they will cut corners to meet your price point.

    3. Never allow marketing or finance to overrule engineering. Boeing broke that rule and that’s how you got the 737 Max.

  141. anonymous[251] • Disclaimer says:

    Bosnians are an interesting people – White European Muslims and those others who’ve lived centuries in and around Turkish type Muslims.

    Kind of like real White Hispanics.

    This is a group it might pay to get to know – like Lebanese Christians one of those internationalist groups that is an in between group. Lebanese Christians here in Chicago along with the David Axelrod type Jews were heavily responsible for the rise out of nowhere to power of Barack Obama.

    If we’re going to get over run and conquered by Muslims, might as well get to know some that look and think like us they/we don’t like St. Louis ghetto punks attacking and murdering folks with hammer attacks.

    J Ryan
    Left Behind in Chicago

  142. a strong tell about the murdered man’s religious affiliation is that he had a Muslim funeral

    the beginning of the youtube shows a still of Begic’s funeral announcement with the islamic crecent star symbol

    Bosnian Muslims can look and behave just like other white Europeans but Islam remains just under the surface

    • Replies: @Jack D
  143. Fun says:
    @Hypnotoad666

    Slavery was the underlying cause, even if the initial rhetoric was about preserving the union. The old South continually pushed for the expansion of slavery into new territories. By the mid-1800s, Northern states abolished it and strongly objected to new slave states. The war would never have have happened without a free state/slave state divide.

  144. Jack D says:
    @jesse helms think-alike

    I guess that settles it.

    Bosnian Muslims can look and behave just like other white Europeans but Islam remains just under the surface

    French Catholics can look and behave just like other white Europeans but Christianity remains just under the surface

    I don’t know this Begic’s level of observance, but around 1/2 of Bosnian Muslims are classified as Sunni and the other half are “unaffiliated” – ethnically Muslim but not practicing any religion. As good Communists, the Yugoslavs tried to get rid of all religion (and even many Western Europeans are without religion) and succeeded to some extent though there has been a revival in the post-Communist period. The Saudis have poured money into mosques all over the world. The grandmothers of the girls you see in hijab in St. Louis almost certainly did not wear the hijab back in Yugoslav days. They would have associated it with something THEIR granny wore and would have wanted nothing to do with such old fashioned backward garb (not that their teachers would have let them wear it anyway).

    Even for people who are largely indifferent to religion in their daily lives, its’ not unusual for them to turn to religion in connection with major life events – birth/marriage/death.

  145. @Art Deco

    The situation in greater St. Louis could be ameliorated by consolidating county and municipal police forces into two or three metropolitan forces which would operate throughout the four counties in question.

    Seems like that would require the governor’s intervention. He’s have to be pretty sure about his chances for re-election before he could bring this about – I’d expect members of the black apparatchiki to denounce this as a racist imposition by The Man against their communities. And do the burbs really want their police protection diluted so blacks can enjoy safer streets? What if the see-no-evil, hear-no-evil policies of policing in black areas extends to their districts?

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  146. Art Deco says:
    @Johann Ricke

    It could likely be done with state legislation, depending on constitutional provisions. Local government is exceedingly fragmented in greater St. Louis, so you have co-ordination problems.

  147. athEIst says:
    @Kronos

    As Hodag says

    The short answer is no because they castrated African male slaves. Only hurts for a second and solves the problem completely

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