The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
Another Bad Idea: Abolish Daylight Savings Time
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New Reply
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

From The Express:

Angela Merkel backs EU plot to ABOLISH daylight saving time

ANGELA Merkel says she is in favour of a proposal by EU Commission President, Jean-Claude Juncker, to abolish daylight saving time.

By MATT DRAKE
18:30, Mon, Sep 3, 2018 | UPDATED: 20:38, Mon, Sep 3, 2018

Jean-Claude Juncker announced that he wanted to overturn the time change in the EU between winter and summer time.

Speaking in the Nigerian capital of Abuja about an online survey by the European Commission on the proposal, Mrs Merkel spoke in favour of the EU time proposal. …

The overwhelming majority of citizens in the EU voted in favour of stopping the changeover in time.

One of my earlier lessons that the respectable press is not always infallible came in 1973, when in response to the energy crisis, Time Magazine editorialized that it was obvious that we should go to year round daylight savings time to save energy. And Congress indeed immediately switched to year round daylight savings in early January 1974.

It was terrible: it was pitch black when you went to school. Then Time editorialized about how stupid Congress had been to get rid of switching, without mentioning that they had been for it just months earlier. Congress abolished year-round daylight savings time in October 1974.

Here in the U.S., after a lot of fiddling over the years, the timing of daylight savings time is pretty close to optimized. So those of us of a technocratic bent haven’t paid much attention to DST in recent years, letting the complainers monopolize the subject.

But, although few remember this, we’ve tried it and it was an immediate flop. But now the idea is coming back in America because who can remember 1974?

Think of it this way: year-round Daylight Saving Time was passed about the same time as the 55 MPH speed limit as part of the spastic hysterical response to the 1973 Energy Crisis. But year-round DST was admitted to be a mistake and gotten rid of about an order of magnitude quicker than the 55 mph speed limit.

 
Hide 212 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
    []
  1. Fredrik says:

    They asked the citizens who said this is a good idea. I don’t agree with it but I know I’m in the minority.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
    AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
    These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
    Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
    More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  2. Anon[162] • Disclaimer says:

    If the proposal is to abolish “fall back” then I’m all for it. The extra daylight in the evening is quite nice as opposed to it getting dark at 5 pm.

    Read More
    • Replies: @E e
    You don't live in New England, obviously. After Daylight Savings ends, it gets dark shortly after 4pm. 5pm sunset in the winter would be wonderful!
    , @Brutusale
    I've always been in favor of the "extra" hour of sleep after the Halloween party.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  3. Adrian E. says:

    The evidence that daylight saving time really saves energy is very weak. See, for instance, https://www.livescience.com/56725-does-daylight-saving-time-save-energy.html

    Claims that dailight saving time saves about 1% of energy are based on simplistic methods. In fact, it is not known whether it saves any energy at all. A study based on a natural experiment found that daylight saving time actually increases energy demand: http://www.nber.org/papers/w14429

    I think one of the characteristics of Americans that often surprises Europeans is how gullible and credulous Americans are. Technocrats and lobbyists just have to claim that something is „optimized“ and most Americans will believe it. It was also very easy to make a majority of the American public believe in the stories about WMD in Iraq, countless examples could be found.

    In Europe, people are much more informed that the actual evidence for the claim that dailight saving time saves energy is very weak. That often came up in discussions of the topic. A further difference might be that European technocrats probably are somewhat less detached from science that the American ones and therefore did not go on with claims based on bogus pseudo-scientific methodology claiming dailight saving time is „optimized“ for saving energy.

    Read More
    • Agree: Realist
    • Replies: @Anon
    "In Europe, people are much more informed..."

    Europeans as a whole? Legal citizens? Legacy white Europeans? I think that the degree of "informedness" is dropping like a brick. Enjoy it while it lasts.
    , @Anthony Wayne
    In no case are Europeans less credulous or better informed than Americans.
    , @Bragadocious
    "I think one of the characteristics of Americans that often surprises Europeans is how gullible and credulous Americans are"

    Except on Thalidomide, widely snapped up by eager Europeans, viewed skeptically here, with good reason. I don't know if you're typing with one of your stubby salamander arms, but you could be.

    I could go on: WW1, seen as a fancy dress party with ordnance in Europe, viewed as a useless slaughter here. Which is why we smartly stayed out ...for a while anyway. Unlike the dumb Euros, who rushed in to "have a go."

    Problem is when European credulity gains critical mass, many people start dying.

    , @Jack D
    I am in favor of daylight savings time not because it saves energy but because it coordinates the hours of daylight better with your waking hours. For example, in Philadelphia on the longest day of the year the sun rises at around 5:30 AM and sets at around 8:30 PM as a result of the DST shift. Without the DST shift, the sun would rise at 4:30 AM (when almost everyone is asleep) and set at 7:30PM (depriving a lot of people of after work recreational time).

    On the other hand, on the shortest day of the year, the sun rises at this latitude at around 7:30 and sets at around 4:45 (but only because the clock has been shifted OFF of summer time). If we kept permanent summer time (which I understand is the EU proposal) then sunrise would not happen until 8:30 AM so many people would have to travel to work/school in pitch darkness.

    Keep in mind the clock time is arbitrary - nothing keeps employers/school from shifting their opening hours seasonally or whatever. In China, the whole country is on Beijing time, so in the far western regions in the winter the sun does not rise until almost 10AM. However, many places there shift their winter working hours so the work day starts later.
    , @J.Ross
    Jack Lessenberry, a local Michigan lefty authority on journalism and government, who is pretty good on some subjects (but a mere liar on gun issues), once defended Obamacare to disappointed leftists by declaring it only the first step to socialized medicine. Leftists do this all the time. They told you X, you thoughtfully considered X, but if you were actually a part of the conversation and not just a mark, you would have caught that X means X+a gazillion other things, most of which are impossible. This is why it is better in the long run to talk about "commies" and cultmarx. There are environmentalists, probably, but watch for longer and you will see that most of these people are communists who have opted to claim to be environmentalists because it makes a better business card. Universal daylight savings time would save energy if it was also executed with a suite of social and personal changes that have no chance of ever being discussed, just like Obamacare will run smoothly come the Revolution.
    Reasonable people keep forgetting that snakes have fangs.
    Isaac Asimov had a little Jewish nationalist joke wrapped in a concession to theism, claiming that the career of the Roman emperor Titus was all sunshine until he desecrated the Temple. This wierd story is another reminder that Angela Merkel was on track to be the most successful leader in modern European history, and then she touched a Palestinian's shoulder, and now she can't catch a break.
    , @MBlanc46
    Who gives a bleep about saving energy? Here on the Eastern edge of the Central Time Zone, an extra hour of daylight in the evening is one of the few mercies that we get from the seasons. I don’t care what you do where you live, but keep your mitts off our Summer Time.
    , @ben tillman

    I think one of the characteristics of Americans that often surprises Europeans is how gullible and credulous Americans are. Technocrats and lobbyists just have to claim that something is „optimized“ and most Americans will believe it.
     
    LOL. Europeans are every bit as credulous. You've got to be kidding.
    , @Charles Erwin Wilson II

    I think one of the characteristics of Americans that often surprises Europeans is how gullible and credulous Americans are.
     
    I think one of the characteristics of Europeans that often surprises me is how pompous and self-important Europeans are, when compared to Americans. Europeans have proven to be remarkable stupid. The latest boner is that you are importing a host of parasites faster than you can say 'enlightenment' but your Leftist tilt prevents you from recognizing the unforced error you embrace.

    We will have to conquer Europe, after it has descended into the sh1th0le you have signed up for. It will take us a few decades, but we will evict your Moose Limb overlords.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  4. utu says:

    Putin is behind it

    Putin abolishes ‘daylight savings’ time change, 22 July 2014

    https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-28423647

    Read More
    • Replies: @International Jew
    Hah! No doubt it's a scheme to keep his trolls working longer at influencing American elections.
    , @Dtbb
    Was watching world cup, I forget from which city, but time difference was six hours and i noticed in background shots it was getting dark at 930 their time. It made no sense to me because of their latitude. I searched the city's sunrise time and it eas 330 am. Who wants that? Do farmers and construction workers just ignore the clock? I like the current system here and love 7 to 330 construction hours because I beat the traffic both ways. Any request to work later and I insist on being paid til 6 pm no matter when I finish. Makes no sense to sit in traffic to me.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  5. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    Why not stay on daylight time, but have the kids start school an hour or two later?

    Read More
    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    That's pretty dumb. The whole point of DST is so thousands of individual stakeholders don't have to decide when to start earlier. Everyone does it at once.

    For those of you who don't like DST, the sun would rise at 4:30 for most of the summer. The daylight would be wasted. Even if DST saves $1 in energy costs, it would be worth it due to the social benefits.
    , @anon

    Why not stay on daylight time, but have the kids start school an hour or two later?
     
    Because that is the simple and obvious solution. Making all of society live on pretend time six months of the year is the more complex and stupid solution, so that is what we do.
    , @Anonymous
    Why not stay on standard time.

    But if we need to start school later for either being year round, let's consider that, too.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  6. What if we took ten minutes away from every hour between 6AM and 10PM and gave those extra minutes to the hours between 10PM and 6AM? We’d have more daylight hours that way (and fewer nighttime hours) — year-round.

    Maybe people would get more sleep this way too; they could hit the sack at midnight and get up at 6, but they’d have actually spent 480 minutes in bed!

    Read More
    • Replies: @jb
    No no no, that's way too complicated, and doesn't address the real problem. We need to take an hour of daylight away from the days in summer and redistribute those hours to the days in winter. That way no part of the year is unfairly deprived of daylight.

    Or wait, maybe that's what daylight savings time already does. Is it? I'm confused...

    , @Intelligent Dasein

    What if we took ten minutes away from every hour between 6AM and 10PM and gave those extra minutes to the hours between 10PM and 6AM?
     
    You know, it's interesting. When I was a very young boy, I assumed that's how Daylight Savings Time actually worked. I had heard people talking about setting the clocks back in the Fall, and saying that the days were getting shorter, but I had never had the entire concept explained to me systematically. So my mind, filling in the ambiguous information, concluded that the actual clock-hours between sunrise and sunset were compressed during the winter. I immediately took a liking to this idea because I thought, "Awesome, I get to spend less time in school!"

    That always prompted me to wonder what it might be like if the time between sunrise and sunset was always divided into twelve equal hours, irrespective of the actual length of day. Of course, timekeeping under such a scenario would become an absolute horror, since the clocks would have to change not only from day to day, but also from latitude to latitude. Nobody would ever be on the same time, and scheduling would become a practical impossibility.

    This is probably why "clock time" has risen to such prominence in the first place. As unnatural as it is, it is the only means we have of coordinating group activity. Most of the work that people do involves some sort of collaborative effort, and in order to collaborate effectively you have to get people together at the same times and/or places. Simply saying "Be at the job by sunup" isn't precise enough, nor does it allow for a proper degree of accountability. But living life according to clock time is always burdensome to some greater or lesser degree. The clock takes no notice of the differences between individuals, of circadian rhythms, of youth and age, male and female, sickness and health. By fitting everyone into its Procrustean bed, it fits no one perfectly.

    Worse than that, however, is the time-card, i.e. the notion that employees should be paid simply for time spent "on the clock." The hours spent on a task are often a poor proxy for productivity, and it's an easy system to game. For many, many jobs out there, the employee's actual productive value to the firm is much more closely indexed to the amount of work done, and therefore it only stands to reason that such employees should be paid for piecework. And if you work in front-line management (as I do), you know that one of your constant headaches is the need to control for overtime, to get people "off the clock" before their presence there becomes a financial liability. This would not be the case if employees were paid for work performed rather than per unit of time.

    The time-card simply aggregates every employee's productivity into one lump sum and then divvies out the gain according to an hourly pay scale. This creates a moral hazard by rewarding the lazy workers with the same compensation as that received by the industrious. You might think that in a certain sense, the time-card actually makes things easier on the management because it saves them from the necessity of having to measure productivity on a daily basis. "I can't count how many widgets each one of my employees makes everyday," runs the objection. But this convenience comes at the expense that now management has to constantly monitor how every employee is spending his time, which is no less difficult than measuring productivity. And really, the objection involves nothing insurmountable. It should be no great difficulty for management to delegate beforehand the amount of work to be performed each day. "I need you to make sixty widgets today, and when you're done you can go home." Under this system, the primary task of management would be controlling for quality rather than time.

    While no system is perfect and any system may be gamed, productivity and quality are much more naturally related to profitability than is mere time spent on the clock. Therefore they ought to be the primary focus of front-line management. Thus, while I don't have strong opinions about Daylight Savings Time, I do have very strong opinions about the time-card. Unlike the former, this is a problem that our society really does need to address as we move into the difficult fiscal straits ahead. After many decades of manufacturing atrophy and infrastructural neglect, we need to do everything possible to incentivize actual production and we can no longer afford the luxury of paying people simply to show up. Compensation reform is another necessary political battle that I don't hear anyone else talking about.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  7. CJ says:

    Why would anybody in southern California give a rat turd about daylight savings time? The length of the days really doesn’t change all that much there. If you’re in Scotland or Sweden or Edmonton, Alberta summer daylight will go on to almost 11:00 pm. Not so in Arizona, which AFAIK resisted daylight savings time as long as they could.

    At least one Canadian province, Saskatchewan (entirely above the 49th parallel), never adopted DST. I salute their good sense.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Albertde
    Saskatchewan is mostly on Central Standard Time but is geographically in the Mountain Time Zone, so, while they don't switch, it is because they are on year-round Daylight Savings!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  8. D. K. says:

    Steve Sailer, as a rule, goes to bed in the wee, small hours of the morning, and then sleeps in until late morning. I myself am likewise a so-called night owl– or Type 2 sleeper, as sleep researchers call us. Unlike Steve, however, I cannot stand daylight-saving time. Perhaps that is because I am not trying to get in rounds of golf in the early evenings, since early tee times are out of the question!?! Time zones’ replacing of local sun time was a practical necessity, in the age of high-speed communication and travel. Daylight-saving time, like the Uniform Monday Holiday Act (1968), is just a sop to money-grubbing business interests.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    Slaughter - Up All Night

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Za0gWXJW1w
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  9. @Dave Pinsen
    Why not stay on daylight time, but have the kids start school an hour or two later?

    That’s pretty dumb. The whole point of DST is so thousands of individual stakeholders don’t have to decide when to start earlier. Everyone does it at once.

    For those of you who don’t like DST, the sun would rise at 4:30 for most of the summer. The daylight would be wasted. Even if DST saves $1 in energy costs, it would be worth it due to the social benefits.

    Read More
    • Replies: @PhysicistDave
    ScarletNumber wrote:

    For those of you who don’t like DST, the sun would rise at 4:30 for most of the summer. The daylight would be wasted.
     
    That is indeed the point.

    Having the sun rise when almost everyone is still in bed is a nuisance unless you have very good room-darkening shades. Having an extra hour of sunlight in the evening after work and after school is at least a minor advantage.

    It's not earthshaking, but it is common sense: let's schedule our day so that we do not have sunlight when it would be a nuisance and do have sunlight when it provides some benefit.

    The only people who should object is those who really do want the sun to wake them up at 4:30 a.m. (I take it some farmers do want this).

    , @Dave Pinsen
    Teens may be better off with school starting later.

    Switching from daylight savings to standard time and back increases the risk of heart attacks and other health problems.

    Based on that, the best bet seems to be staying on daylight time year-round and having kids start school later.
    , @szopen
    There are no social benefits, au contraire. I hate having to get up early. My whole day is shifted and if lasts few days till I get used to a new regime. And I know I am not alone - every year after shifting time dozens of people curse for few days till everything goes back to normal.
    , @dr kill
    People that can't get out of bed hate early risers. Perhaps sissies , drunks and women could change the workday from 11 until 8 pm. Just do it and shut up. QED
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  10. @utu
    Putin is behind it

    Putin abolishes 'daylight savings' time change, 22 July 2014
    https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-28423647
     

    Hah! No doubt it’s a scheme to keep his trolls working longer at influencing American elections.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  11. I have found that the anti-DST people tend to be on the spectrum. It makes so much sense to neuro-typicals that we forget that some people overthink things.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alec Leamas
    Can you explain what exactly is autistic about not wanting an unnecessary, minor case of jet lag twice per annum?

    Maybe you aren't as affected by deviations in sleep patterns as other people?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  12. Frank G says:

    Time itself is periodic, so I don’t see how another layer of periodicity is a bad thing.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  13. Anon[312] • Disclaimer says:

    “I think one of the characteristics of Americans that often surprises Europeans is how gullible and credulous Americans are … countless examples could be found.”

    This is because the United States is no longer a real country due to immigration (Europe’s future if you don’t get your act together). In ethnically homogeneous countries, people vote according to policy. In ethnically and racially divided countries, people are extremely group-oriented, voting and acting in accordance with tribal affiliation, irrespective of policy, logic, or reason. Thus, when the Red team’s tribe leader says something, all Red team members agree and Blue team members disagree – no matter how stupid or smart the idea is. But when Blue team’s leader reverses course when they have the White House, Blue team members also reverse their opinions and Red team members do the same. This explains how leftists could be anti-state, anti-war, anti-spying under Bush but pro-war and pro-spying under Obama. The only thing that keeps 80% of republicans from wanting more war under Trump is their suspicion that blue team’s deepstate wants it, so Red team is wary.

    Example:

    Blue team (Reagan) = corporations bad; Red team (Reagan) = corporations good.

    Blue team (Obama) = tech companies good; Red team (Obama) = maybe tech monopolies are bad. [they are]

    Red team (W. Bush) = spying good; Blue team (W. Bush) = spying is the worst thing ever – never trust the CIA!

    Red team (Trump) = don’t trust the CIA; Blue team (Trump) = how dare you question the totally trustworthy CIA who’d never ever lie to anyone!

    Red team (Trump) = bad trade deals are killing the working class. We should do some tariffs or something; Blue team (Trump) = “Oh look, the rubes care about der jerbs. Tariffs? Outrageous! Let’s organize an effort to have foreign governments attack the president’s finances and our country’s exports because tariffs are obviously the worst thing ever except for all those times we supported them in the past!”

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  14. anon[363] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Why not stay on daylight time, but have the kids start school an hour or two later?

    Why not stay on daylight time, but have the kids start school an hour or two later?

    Because that is the simple and obvious solution. Making all of society live on pretend time six months of the year is the more complex and stupid solution, so that is what we do.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    "Making all of society live on pretend time six months of the year is the more complex and stupid solution, so that is what we do."
     
    Not only that, but we make sure the US changes its clocks a few weeks different from the others to point out that the rest of the world is out of step with all that is sweetness and light, greatness and good ... exceptional!
    , @Achmed E. Newman
    That's pretty much what I said, but more succinct and earlier. ;-}

    Agreed, #363, you can't fool Mother Nature.
    , @ben tillman

    Because that is the simple and obvious solution. Making all of society live on pretend time six months of the year is the more complex and stupid solution, so that is what we do.
     
    Almost all of us live on pretend time the whole year round because of time zones. In real time, noon in Amarillo and Dallas and Opelika is not simultaneous.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  15. Anonymous[114] • Disclaimer says:

    It was terrible: it was pitch black when you went to school.

    Okay, so let’s go to year round STANDARD time, instead.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Why sleep through all that nice sunshine in summer?

    Currently, standard time is only about 4.5 months long, so year round DST would make more sense than year round Standard Time. But November through February would be hard on schoolkids if it were DST.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  16. Anonymous[114] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Why not stay on daylight time, but have the kids start school an hour or two later?

    Why not stay on standard time.

    But if we need to start school later for either being year round, let’s consider that, too.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  17. It was terrible: it was pitch black when you went to school.

    In our town, not only was it dark, but the temperature was sometimes below zero Fahrenheit while we waited for the bus. A few times it got down to minus twenty.

    Being kids, we actually thought that was pretty cool. Well it was cool, literally.

    Then we rode on snowy roads to the ching-ching-ching sound of tire chains. When that changed to clack-clack-clack, the driver had to get out and re-attach the chains because they were loose and slapping against the insides of the fenders.

    Nowadays some school districts are talking about starting later so teenagers can sleep in. They close school when there’s dew on the ground.

    Now let me tell you about the times we had to walk to school ten miles on snow shoes — uphill both ways.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  18. “Here in the U.S., after a lot of fiddling over the years, the timing of daylight savings time is pretty close to optimized.”

    BINGO! You hit that nail on its head, Mr. Sailer. In fact, I feel that the present Standard Time and Daylight Savings Time schedule is perfect.

    The only Americans I know who detest and deprecate Daylight Savings Time live in Arizona, the only state in North America which stays year-round on Standard Time. Even then, the only Arizonans I know who dislike Daylight Savings Time are those who air travel to other states for business.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dwb
    FWIW, Hawaii also does not change its clocks.

    But Hawaii is very close to the equator, so they do not have the extreme changes in sunlight. The point of DST is really lost the closer you get to the equator.

    To be candid, I do not get why this is even an issue. The time change I guess results in a handful of people missing appointments on Sundays (people who, despite the numerous warnings, still fail to set their clocks properly), and I've seen some anecdotal claims that, in the days immediately after the change, a slight rise in road accidents. But really - what the hell? THIS is the thing that Angela Merkel wants to have a debate about?

    We lived in Paris for a couple of years, which is quite far north. Not as far as Stockholm, of course. There is just no way around it - in December and January, with "standard" time, you wake up and go to work or get the kids to school in the dark. In late December/early January, the sun will rise at 8.44 AM. And that is WITH "standard time." If you had "summer" time, that would be at 9.44. It will set just before 5 PM. If you had DST, it would be at 6.

    Either way, you are still travelling in the morning in the dark, and at night in the dark. With 8 hours of sun, you cannot "solve" the problem, so just suck it up.

    (France is kind of unique, as although Paris and London are more or less on the same line of longitude, Paris is an hour forward following the German occupation in WWII - they moved their clocks forward to correspond to the time in Berlin).

    This is a fake issue.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  19. @Anonymous

    It was terrible: it was pitch black when you went to school.
     
    Okay, so let's go to year round STANDARD time, instead.

    Why sleep through all that nice sunshine in summer?

    Currently, standard time is only about 4.5 months long, so year round DST would make more sense than year round Standard Time. But November through February would be hard on schoolkids if it were DST.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Unless, as you suggest, school starting times are moved to a slightly saner (later) hour.
    , @PhysicistDave
    Steve Sailer wrote:

    But November through February would be hard on schoolkids if it were DST.
     
    And morning commuters. I suspect that morning-commute accidents would increase if we had wintertime DST.
    , @Steve in Greensboro
    I move that we adopt year round Daylight Savings Time, based on Steve Sailer's proposal.

    My rationale is that switching is terribly disruptive. It takes weeks to get adjusted to the new schedule and there is probably zero electricity savings due to switching (which was the original rationale). ST v. DST? Pick one. I don't care. Sailer's rationale (that it is mostly DST now) is persuasive to me (not that I need much persuading). And the fact that DST is "terribly hard on the school kids" is just another benefit of Sailer's proposal.

    , @Mick Jagger gathers no mosque
    But November through February would be hard on schoolkids if it were DST.

    Who cares? They don't vote, work. or care about anything other than whatever and we can beat them up if they complain about it.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  20. I strongly favor having daylight savings time all year round. First I never really saw the point of the time switch to begin with. Secondly I work with a computer program that has to run reliably 24-7 year-round with graphical displays of current timelines, and getting the daylight savings changes right is murder. I favor keeping DST all year because it gives you an extra hour of daylight in the evening, which can make a big difference up north in the fall and winter.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  21. Anon[337] • Disclaimer says:

    Daylight Savings Time is heavenly. Extend it as far as possible!

    But the proposal (as with the ones in our country) is to abolish it entirely.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  22. Anon[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Why sleep through all that nice sunshine in summer?

    Currently, standard time is only about 4.5 months long, so year round DST would make more sense than year round Standard Time. But November through February would be hard on schoolkids if it were DST.

    Unless, as you suggest, school starting times are moved to a slightly saner (later) hour.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  23. Kyle says:

    As a working man, I understand the value of daylight savings time. We start our work days at 6 am every day. It’s nice that the sun starts to come out at 7 am, even in the dead of winter. It would suck to be in the dark for 2 hours. I suppose we could buy portable flood light…. but we’ve never had to.
    As a working man I understand the implicitly human advantages of the imperial system of measurements. And inch an be thought of as a unit. One thirty second of that inch has an exact, precise definition. If tolerances call for thirty seconds of an inch, there is an exact and precise way to measure them. 1inch/ (2^5) is precisely equal to one thirty second of an inch. Divide it in half five times. There is definitely merit to the metric system. I’m the lab it’s nice to be able to deal in the abstract. But on the job site you must deal in preciseness.
    As a working man, I understand the value of a penny. If a 24oz of Bush is priced at 1.01$ and I give the cashier a two dollar bill and one penny, I will receive 1 dollar in change. Effectively, the value of a penny can range anywhere from 0€ to 1$.
    There’s some kind of disconnect between people like me and people like her. I’m not sure what it is.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    "As a working man I understand the implicitly human advantages of the imperial system of measurements. And inch an be thought of as a unit. One thirty second of that inch has an exact, precise definition. If tolerances call for thirty seconds of an inch, there is an exact and precise way to measure them. 1inch/ (2^5) is precisely equal to one thirty second of an inch. Divide it in half five times. There is definitely merit to the metric system. I’m the lab it’s nice to be able to deal in the abstract. But on the job site you must deal in preciseness."

    This is not meant to criticize your way of thinking about measurements; I'm just genuinely curious why and how people find the imperial system easier to deal with. Even while doing carpentry (as an amateur), I find the imperial system infuriating to deal with.

    I once asked, as a lark, a bunch of employees in a (US) supermarket how many ounces were in a gallon of milk. None had any idea. You could say, well, they work in a supermarket, they're not very bright. How many of the bright people here could answer on the spot, without looking it up or thinking a bit about it ("well, there are 16 oz. in a pint (or is it 20??), there are 2 pints in a quart...").
    How many could instantly answer the question about how many ml in 2 liters?
    , @Dtbb
    You should try surveying sometime. Measurements are made in hundredths of a foot called an engineer's rule to ease arithmetic. It's always fun to hand a carpenter an engineer's tape to measure cuts some other carpenter measured with a normal tape. The head scratching is hilarious. I would have no problem switching to metric because it's more precise.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  24. @ScarletNumber
    That's pretty dumb. The whole point of DST is so thousands of individual stakeholders don't have to decide when to start earlier. Everyone does it at once.

    For those of you who don't like DST, the sun would rise at 4:30 for most of the summer. The daylight would be wasted. Even if DST saves $1 in energy costs, it would be worth it due to the social benefits.

    ScarletNumber wrote:

    For those of you who don’t like DST, the sun would rise at 4:30 for most of the summer. The daylight would be wasted.

    That is indeed the point.

    Having the sun rise when almost everyone is still in bed is a nuisance unless you have very good room-darkening shades. Having an extra hour of sunlight in the evening after work and after school is at least a minor advantage.

    It’s not earthshaking, but it is common sense: let’s schedule our day so that we do not have sunlight when it would be a nuisance and do have sunlight when it provides some benefit.

    The only people who should object is those who really do want the sun to wake them up at 4:30 a.m. (I take it some farmers do want this).

    Read More
    • Replies: @E e
    I lived in Boston after college and was on a rowing team that practiced at 5:30am. I loved that it was already light out at 4:30. On the flip side, it's utterly depressing when it's completely dark at 4:30pm in the winter...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  25. @Steve Sailer
    Why sleep through all that nice sunshine in summer?

    Currently, standard time is only about 4.5 months long, so year round DST would make more sense than year round Standard Time. But November through February would be hard on schoolkids if it were DST.

    Steve Sailer wrote:

    But November through February would be hard on schoolkids if it were DST.

    And morning commuters. I suspect that morning-commute accidents would increase if we had wintertime DST.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Let them start work later.

    For hospitals, or businesses that require workers 24/7, some will have to commute in the dark, just as some commute in the middle of the night now. But do most people really need to be at the office by 8 or 9, or is it just a convention? Let them come to work an hour or two later, and let them work from home more often, if remote work is feasible for their job.

    Really, given the high percentage of bullsh*t jobs, would if more people came in later or worked staggered start times?

    I once had a job as an inside sales rep covering Northern California from the East Coast. My start time was 11am, but I got in around 11:20am most days because no one really looks out for who's coming in at 11. It was a nice commute.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  26. Anonymous[295] • Disclaimer says:

    Steve check out Safe Harbour on Hulu. From the first couple episodes it seems to be a woke cautionary tale about invade the world/invite the world.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    That’s not woke, it’s based.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  27. El Dato says:

    Angela Merkel backs EU plot to ABOLISH daylight saving time

    Actually, it’s the reverse: to *lock in* Daylight Savings Time.

    One of my earlier lessons that the respectable press is not always infallible came in 1973, when in response to the energy crisis, Time Magazine editorialized that it was obvious that we should go to year round daylight savings time to save energy.

    OTOH, I remember the argument being to use not-whole-year DST to save energy. These arguments are stupid.

    It was terrible: it was pitch black when you went to school.

    Not being on DST (i.e. being on winter time) always meant that it was pitch black when you went to school. And sometimes when you left school. So? It even snowed and we had to go uphill. Both ways.

    Here’s an idea: Start school at sunrise instead of at some arbitrary marker on a rotating device.

    Here in the U.S., after a lot of fiddling over the years, the timing of daylight savings time is pretty close to optimized.

    This is like calling getting a yearly flu “optimized”.

    letting the complainers monopolize the subject.

    Who’s complaining NOW?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  28. I don’t think anyone knows why we go on DST anymore, the reasons are lost in the mists of time. If it’s dropped, people can have their own DST, they might be late for work, but what the heck. The boss will understand.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  29. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @ScarletNumber
    That's pretty dumb. The whole point of DST is so thousands of individual stakeholders don't have to decide when to start earlier. Everyone does it at once.

    For those of you who don't like DST, the sun would rise at 4:30 for most of the summer. The daylight would be wasted. Even if DST saves $1 in energy costs, it would be worth it due to the social benefits.

    Teens may be better off with school starting later.

    Switching from daylight savings to standard time and back increases the risk of heart attacks and other health problems.

    Based on that, the best bet seems to be staying on daylight time year-round and having kids start school later.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  30. Far be it from me to agree with Angela Merkel about anything, but I never saw the point in DST either. Do we really save enough energy to justify jet-lagging everyone twice a year?

    Read More
    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    If that was adopted in the UK, most of the country in winter would be dark til 9 am i.e the time when most people have to be at work and children have to be in school.

    The current system means that even in winter, kids can get to and from school in daylight, except in the very far North and Orkney/Shetland i.e. least populated areas.

    (Some places, like Darwin in Australia, have half hour time zones. It's 02.59 there now)

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  31. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @PhysicistDave
    Steve Sailer wrote:

    But November through February would be hard on schoolkids if it were DST.
     
    And morning commuters. I suspect that morning-commute accidents would increase if we had wintertime DST.

    Let them start work later.

    For hospitals, or businesses that require workers 24/7, some will have to commute in the dark, just as some commute in the middle of the night now. But do most people really need to be at the office by 8 or 9, or is it just a convention? Let them come to work an hour or two later, and let them work from home more often, if remote work is feasible for their job.

    Really, given the high percentage of bullsh*t jobs, would if more people came in later or worked staggered start times?

    I once had a job as an inside sales rep covering Northern California from the East Coast. My start time was 11am, but I got in around 11:20am most days because no one really looks out for who’s coming in at 11. It was a nice commute.

    Read More
    • Replies: @tomv

    Let them start work later.
     
    Isn't that just a more confusing way of shifting time? If work and school start later, how's that different from "falling back," except now you have two sets of nominal hours to deal with?
    , @PhysicistDave
    Dave Pinsen wrote to me:

    Let them start work later.
     
    It's just a classic "coordination problem": as a practical matter, which is the easier way to coordinate things -- everyone alters their clocks or everyone alters the nominal time when they go to work?

    Dave Pinsen also wrote:

    Really, given the high percentage of bullsh*t jobs, would if more people came in later or worked staggered start times?
     
    Even better, let's set all their clocks to the PM so they never get out of bed!

    Seriously, I concur in recommending the Graeber book you link to: Graeber is one of the increasing number of leftists who actually make sense as the liberal Establishment is imploding. I also recommend his The Utopia of Rules.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  32. > another bad idea: abolish daylight savings time

    that queasy feeling when you find yourself disagreeing with our dear leader…

    it’s daylight savings time, ie government-mandated screwing with something that should be standard and reliable and independent of politics, which is the bad idea!

    keep the government out of our clocks!

    why not also have daylight savings distances, because it’s more tiring and dangerous to go long distances in the winter? Miles would become kilometers in the winter. Athletes and taxi drivers would be grateful for this.

    just because Europe does something doesn’t mean it’s dumb

    that queasy feeling again… have I (re-) become a leftist SJW because I oppose DST? I also like bicycles…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  33. anon[552] • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @Anonymous
    Steve check out Safe Harbour on Hulu. From the first couple episodes it seems to be a woke cautionary tale about invade the world/invite the world.

    That’s not woke, it’s based.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    We don't need a "right wing" and a "left wing" version for every word.

    "Woke" may have been coined by leftists but its meaning is much more easily understood, both on an intuitive level and also on a ubiquity level. Few people have ever heard "based" used as a slang term, and no one could intuit its meaning without strong context cues.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  34. Anon[259] • Disclaimer says:

    Agree, with the proviso that this is a latitude-dependent issue.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  35. Johnny789 says:

    From my late teens and onward I’ve always associated it getting dark outside with the start of fun stuff happening. I’ve lived in Chicago and LA during those times and both cities are east in their time zones (especially Chicago) so it gets dark pretty early even under DST. I used to love watching Dodgers night games played in SF where it was dark in LA but still light outside up north for quite a while during the game. Cleveland (where I grew up) is pretty far west in its time zone and it didn’t get dark until 9:30 at night in the summer which is great when you’re a kid. I was a Jr. in HS in 1974 and it stayed dark outside until my 2nd class of the day in Jan and Feb.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res
    Location within time zone is a good point to raise here. Does that +/- up to half an hour difference make a difference for people's opinions about DST? Latitude is the bigger issue, of course.

    In my experience standardization is an important issue. Europe and the US being out of sync can be a nuisance. How much of a nuisance is the opposite DST schedules for working with people in the other hemisphere?
    , @ScarletNumber
    Even worse than Cleveland are Detroit and Indianapolis. Sunset can be as late as 9:13 in the former and 9:17 in the latter. Of course both cities belong in the Central Time Zone.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  36. Anon[259] • Disclaimer says:

    Don, Steve, this seems like a good occasion to ask: How do you feel about the metric system?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  37. Anon[259] • Disclaimer says:
    @Adrian E.
    The evidence that daylight saving time really saves energy is very weak. See, for instance, https://www.livescience.com/56725-does-daylight-saving-time-save-energy.html

    Claims that dailight saving time saves about 1% of energy are based on simplistic methods. In fact, it is not known whether it saves any energy at all. A study based on a natural experiment found that daylight saving time actually increases energy demand: http://www.nber.org/papers/w14429

    I think one of the characteristics of Americans that often surprises Europeans is how gullible and credulous Americans are. Technocrats and lobbyists just have to claim that something is „optimized“ and most Americans will believe it. It was also very easy to make a majority of the American public believe in the stories about WMD in Iraq, countless examples could be found.

    In Europe, people are much more informed that the actual evidence for the claim that dailight saving time saves energy is very weak. That often came up in discussions of the topic. A further difference might be that European technocrats probably are somewhat less detached from science that the American ones and therefore did not go on with claims based on bogus pseudo-scientific methodology claiming dailight saving time is „optimized“ for saving energy.

    “In Europe, people are much more informed…”

    Europeans as a whole? Legal citizens? Legacy white Europeans? I think that the degree of “informedness” is dropping like a brick. Enjoy it while it lasts.

    Read More
    • Replies: @E e
    Check percent of people who think GMOs are Evil in the US vs Europe, or, worse, the vaccination rate... It's a problem in the US, but the number of measles cases is a statistical error compared to Europe this summer. I'll take gullibility over time changes any day.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  38. Daylight Savings Time works fine as it is. It is not used in Arizona or Hawaii, two states associated with two of the most evil men to have risen to high office in the United State.

    It is astonishing to me that over three years after irrevocably wrecking her country by welcoming a flood of third world invaders Merkel remains safely in her Chancellor’s perch.

    Maybe some German readers can clue us in: what is wrong with Germany? Even Hillary, who never got the chance to do the damage Merkel has done (which she intended to do and more) would have been voted out at the first opportunity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Even Hillary... would have been voted out at the first opportunity
     
    You mean the Iowa caucuses? Three years is a long way to "first opportunity".
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  39. Blubb says:

    Energy saving is tenuous, at best, but there is a tangible human cost: the mini-jet-lag increases accidents, and thereby accident related deaths.

    And since most of those happen through rush hour, so, when productive people are on the street, that means productive people die. And if Europe cannot afford one thing it is losing more productive people.

    Also, my kids drive me crazy when I have to adjust their sleep schedules twice a year.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  40. szopen says:
    @ScarletNumber
    That's pretty dumb. The whole point of DST is so thousands of individual stakeholders don't have to decide when to start earlier. Everyone does it at once.

    For those of you who don't like DST, the sun would rise at 4:30 for most of the summer. The daylight would be wasted. Even if DST saves $1 in energy costs, it would be worth it due to the social benefits.

    There are no social benefits, au contraire. I hate having to get up early. My whole day is shifted and if lasts few days till I get used to a new regime. And I know I am not alone – every year after shifting time dozens of people curse for few days till everything goes back to normal.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  41. szopen says:

    In one book by Suvorov there is this story how DST was invented by Stalin (in a story, actually, it was an mandatory essay by one of his agents while in her school): the argument put by agent was that it would be great way to shove into everyone’s faces the power of the government, to force everyone to do nonsensical thing twice time a year. Hilarious story.

    Here in Poland abolishing DST was demanded by JKM (the “most based MP” as he became known recently due do PewDiePew), old-fashioned monarchist-right wing conservative (he was NR before the term was born. heck, he was neoreactionary before people who invented the term were born :D ).

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  42. LondonBob says:

    Portugal and Russia have experimented with abolishing DST, in both cases it was a complete disaster and the experiment was quickly ended. Still it doesn’t stop the odd obsessives and their hobby horse.

    I can normally tell when the clocks are about to change as I start naturally going to bed earlier, or later depending on the change. Clocks should fit around the seasonal changes and our body cycles.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous coward

    Portugal and Russia have experimented with abolishing DST, in both cases it was a complete disaster and the experiment was quickly ended.
     
    No, Russia abolished DST with great success. It's probably one of the few Russian reforms that's universally agreed upon as a good thing.
    , @European-American
    > Clocks should fit around the seasonal changes and our body cycles

    Exactly! So what is needed is to change the time gradually every month. Set your clock back by 5 minutes every month, on the first of the month at midnight, during the 6 months heading towards winter, and set your clock forward by 5 minutes every month in the 6 months leading up to summer.

    Of course, the adjustment should really be a factor of your latitude. In New York there is a 3-hour time difference between sunrises in the winter and summer. In Miami, the difference is only 1.5 hours. So ideally, to make sure that I can reliably set my clock to wake with the sun all year round, the time should be adjusted every month in New York by 15 minutes, and by only 7.5 minutes in Miami.

    There's also the issue that the variation is not linear, so adjustments should be smaller in deepest winter and deepest summer. I'm not sure what the exact function is but astronomers can tell us.

    And of course a monthly adjustment is still too jarring for our body cycles, so ideally there would be an adjustment every day, so roughly 30 seconds per day in New York, and 15 seconds per day in Miami.

    This way when you want to schedule a call with someone in a location different from you, you just have to ask what their latitude is, and make the appropriate conversions.

    All our clocks will have to be replaced or manually adjusted on a daily basis, but of course most of us tell the time from mobile phones nowadays, so it's just a software upgrade.

    http://astrosun2.astro.cornell.edu/academics/courses/astro201/sun_rise.htm
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  43. MEH 0910 says:
    @D. K.
    Steve Sailer, as a rule, goes to bed in the wee, small hours of the morning, and then sleeps in until late morning. I myself am likewise a so-called night owl-- or Type 2 sleeper, as sleep researchers call us. Unlike Steve, however, I cannot stand daylight-saving time. Perhaps that is because I am not trying to get in rounds of golf in the early evenings, since early tee times are out of the question!?! Time zones' replacing of local sun time was a practical necessity, in the age of high-speed communication and travel. Daylight-saving time, like the Uniform Monday Holiday Act (1968), is just a sop to money-grubbing business interests.

    Slaughter – Up All Night

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  44. O'Really says:

    How can you say the schedule is optimized when it is asymmetric around the winter solstice?

    It makes no sense that standard time lasts for only 7 weeks before the solstice, but 9 weeks after.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    It makes no sense that standard time lasts for only 7 weeks before the solstice, but 9 weeks after.

    It's colder after the winter solstice.

    , @res

    How can you say the schedule is optimized when it is asymmetric around the winter solstice?
     
    Does anyone have a convincing explanation for why the asymmetry exists with the current magnitude? I looked around and see the following explanations proposed.
    - Temperature
    - Asymmetric day length
    - Asymmetric sunrise/sunset timing

    First caused by temperature inertia, last two caused by elliptical earth orbit.

    The answer from carnegie-ga at the bottom of this link is pretty good: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=96074

    This link gives a very detailed look at sunrise/sunset/duration/etc. and also shows DST timing: https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/

    Looking at an example city in the northern US it looks like sunrise timing is important, but not quite sufficient to explain the size of the asymmetry.

    I found the title wording of this interesting: https://www.timeanddate.com/news/time/europe-may-scrap-dst.html
    The link says "may" while the title on the page says "will."
    , @ben tillman

    How can you say the schedule is optimized when it is asymmetric around the winter solstice?

    It makes no sense that standard time lasts for only 7 weeks before the solstice, but 9 weeks after.
     
    The nine weeks after are colder than the seven weeks before. Extra sunlight in the morning helps melt a bit of ice before rush hour.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  45. Anon[275] • Disclaimer says:

    You have to be a little careful with arguments based on “We tried it before, and people immediately hated it.” This is because:

    People hate change

    Malcontents are the loudest, those who like something don’t pipe up as much, and those who don’t care say nothing

    The best test would be a well-designed survey well before a change, and one well after a change, after people have gotten used to, or rather completely forgotten about, the change.

    One thing that is crystal clear: For the day or two before and after a time shift, 99 percent of the population hates daylight savings. Changing the friggin’ clocks, sleep disruptions, or forgetting about the change. For the other 360-ish days, maybe it’s 50-50 or better.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  46. @O'Really
    How can you say the schedule is optimized when it is asymmetric around the winter solstice?

    It makes no sense that standard time lasts for only 7 weeks before the solstice, but 9 weeks after.

    It makes no sense that standard time lasts for only 7 weeks before the solstice, but 9 weeks after.

    It’s colder after the winter solstice.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    Even worse, I guess, if Phil sees his shadow. Thank heaven for AGW and the End of Winter®.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  47. @anon

    Why not stay on daylight time, but have the kids start school an hour or two later?
     
    Because that is the simple and obvious solution. Making all of society live on pretend time six months of the year is the more complex and stupid solution, so that is what we do.

    “Making all of society live on pretend time six months of the year is the more complex and stupid solution, so that is what we do.”

    Not only that, but we make sure the US changes its clocks a few weeks different from the others to point out that the rest of the world is out of step with all that is sweetness and light, greatness and good … exceptional!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    Not only that, but we make sure the US changes its clocks a few weeks different from the others to point out that the rest of the world is out of step with all that is sweetness and light, greatness and good … exceptional!
     
    We are at a different latitude than is Europe. Both continents make the change at a time they deem appropriate. As does Japan. (Most of the Canadian population hugs the US border; few live at the European latitudes.)

    This does create a "wacky week" or two in the spring and fall, where transoceanic airline ETDs and ETAs are thrown off.

    Hawaii doesn't participate because it's pointless at their latitude. Alaska has reason to do it on their own time, but evidently would rather not bother.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  48. @Steve Sailer
    It makes no sense that standard time lasts for only 7 weeks before the solstice, but 9 weeks after.

    It's colder after the winter solstice.

    Even worse, I guess, if Phil sees his shadow. Thank heaven for AGW and the End of Winter®.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  49. I think this whole discussion, along with the switching of the clocks back and forth, is completely unneessary. In addition it shows that a bit of the statist mindset has crept into most people that discuss this issue.

    You are not gaining or losing any daylight – we all know that, I hope. Why should the government be let to run your life like this, getting you running around the house switching the clocks? It’s a lot more trouble than that (as a computer-type in the comments already wrote) for software, airline scheduling, payroll departments, etc.

    If people in Seattle, let’s say, want to have more daylight in the morning in winter for the safety of the school kids, then they can change the school schedule whatever date they want and switch it back whatever date they want. If I run a softball league, I can make the games start earlier in the late fall. You don’t have to go switching the “official” time – just change your schedules to suit the sun and the needs of your students, employees, or softball players.

    What is so bad about letting people make their own decisions about when to get up? No, it seems to be all “the government needs to …” and “the government shouldn’t do …” Don’t let the government live rent-free in your heads, people. They already steal 2 to 4 hours of the fruits of your daily labor, whether it’s daylight or standard time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jim jones
    I wonder how many clocks people have in their houses now, my neighbour always complains when we change from GMT because he has to reset his Central Heating timer
    , @Reactionary Utopian

    I think this whole discussion, along with the switching of the clocks back and forth, is completely unneessary. In addition it shows that a bit of the statist mindset has crept into most people that discuss this issue.

    You are not gaining or losing any daylight – we all know that, I hope. Why should the government be let to run your life like this, getting you running around the house switching the clocks? It’s a lot more trouble than that (as a computer-type in the comments already wrote) for software, airline scheduling, payroll departments, etc.

    If people in Seattle, let’s say, want to have more daylight in the morning in winter for the safety of the school kids, then they can change the school schedule whatever date they want and switch it back whatever date they want. If I run a softball league, I can make the games start earlier in the late fall. You don’t have to go switching the “official” time – just change your schedules to suit the sun and the needs of your students, employees, or softball players.

    What is so bad about letting people make their own decisions about when to get up? No, it seems to be all “the government needs to …” and “the government shouldn’t do …” Don’t let the government live rent-free in your heads, people. They already steal 2 to 4 hours of the fruits of your daily labor, whether it’s daylight or standard time.
     
    That's exactly right. I live in Indiana, which until ten years or so ago was the "other" state that observed EST year-'round. Then Bitch Daniels, who is surely the ultimate Chamber-of-Commerce Republican, got elected governor, twisted the state legislature's arms, and -- voila! -- instant EDT. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Yes, the golfers want to play after work. Fine: if they can convince their employers, change their work schedule accordingly during the summer. But, oh, no, that's not good enough -- everybody has to change schedules, in effect, for the benefit of the politically-connected.

    And the process of changing showed what a centrally-controlled shithole we're living in. Just because the state legislature passed a bill changing to EDT, and the governor signed it, did that make it happen? Don't make me laugh. All that did was to send a humble request to the Department of Commerce in Mordor, DC, begging to be allowed to change to EDT. And, in due course, having weighed all the imponderables, imperial permission was graciously extended.

    "And I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free ..."
    , @sabril
    I think the answer to your question is that there is a collective action problem at work, at least in theory.

    So, for example, schools might see it as positive to open an hour later on winter mornings, but they can't do it because too many parents have coordinated their work schedules around bringing their children to school. Meanwhile, the employers for whom these parents work might also like to open an hour later during winter months but they can't do it because too many of their workers have coordinated their schedules around their children's school. There are so many inter-dependencies that it may be impossible to coordinate a big change even if almost everyone would be better off. So that's the point of the government changing the clock by an hour -- at least in theory, it solves the coordination problem.

    In fact in general, one can think of government as a way of solving these sorts of coordination problems. Whether we are better off with government dictates in specific situations, of course, is always open for debate. Because effective government requires concentration of power and compulsion so it is vulnerable to abuse, corruption, mismanagement, etc.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  50. AndrewR says:

    The farther from the tropics you are, the more winter sucks, and no chronological whack-a-mole changes this fact. If the purpose of DST is to maximize the amount of time people are awake during the winter daytime, it clearly fails. Way more people are asleep at 7/8/9 A.M. than at 4/5/6 P.M. “Falling back” just means that more people are asleep during the first hours of daylight without a corresponding decrease in the number of people asleep during the last hours of daylight.

    The only truly convincing argument in favor of DST is “muh schoolchildren,” and I’m not sure that argument outweighs the havoc that the twice-yearly changes in time wreaks on people’s schedules (particularly in the spring with more drowsy drivers out after the time change)

    Read More
    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    AGREED
    , @Kyle
    How about people who work outside? I work outside. And I will absolutely advocate for “muh job!!!!!”

    All of you anti DST people, your trying to “took errhh jobs!!!”
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  51. dearieme says:

    When we lived in Edinburgh people liked to squeeze in a round of golf, teeing off at 19:00. Of course if they’d played at the American pace they’d have had to abandon their rounds unfinished.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I just reread P.G. Wodehouse's collected golf stories and the characters appear to play 18 holes in not too much over 2 hours. For example, in the earliest story, from 1914, a plot point is that a bad golfer in a match play tournament has a tee off time at 11:30 am and makes a date to meet his sweetheart at 1:OO PM because he is eliminated 10 and 8 after playing 10 holes. Of course, being a Wodehouse golf story, suddenly he hits a streak of luck and chooses to battle to the 18th hole to win his first cup, even though his fiance will no doubt call off the wedding.

    How did they play so fast?

    Of course, the tournament final was a twosome, each player with his own caddie.

    I recently played in a foursome at a 100+ year old club on Long Island that no doubt Wodehouse played a few times. We played with two expert caddies. It would have been slightly faster to play with four caddies, but the two caddies successfully materialized like Jeeves at the exact moment you needed them, so having just two caddies couldn't have slowed us down much. Playing on a perfect 75 degree June day with everybody playing decently or better and walking briskly, it took about exactly 4 hours, maybe 3 hours and 50 minutes. That's with conceding putts within 3 feet. There was a modest amount of waiting on the tee for the foursome ahead to clear out of range.

    My guess is that in Wodehouse's day they didn't wait for the player furthest away to hit first.

    , @Steve Sailer
    I just reread P.G. Wodehouse's collected golf stories and the characters appear to play 18 holes in not too much over 2 hours. For example, in the earliest story, from 1914, a plot point is that a bad golfer in a match play tournament has a tee off time at 11:30 am and makes a date to meet his sweetheart at 1:OO PM because he is eliminated 10 and 8 after playing 10 holes. Of course, being a Wodehouse golf story, suddenly he hits a streak of luck and chooses to battle to the 18th hole to win his first cup, even though his fiance will no doubt call off the wedding.

    How did they play so fast?

    Of course, the tournament final was a twosome, each player with his own caddie.

    I recently played in a foursome at a 100+ year old club on Long Island that no doubt Wodehouse played a few times. We played with two expert caddies. It would have been slightly faster to play with four caddies, but the two caddies successfully materialized like Jeeves at the exact moment you needed them, so having just two caddies couldn't have slowed us down much. Playing on a perfect 75 degree June day with everybody playing decently or better and walking briskly, it took about exactly 4 hours, maybe 3 hours and 50 minutes. That's with conceding putts within 3 feet. There was a modest amount of waiting on the tee for the foursome ahead to clear out of range.

    My guess is that in Wodehouse's day they didn't wait for the player furthest away to hit first.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  52. AndrewR says:
    @anon
    That’s not woke, it’s based.

    We don’t need a “right wing” and a “left wing” version for every word.

    “Woke” may have been coined by leftists but its meaning is much more easily understood, both on an intuitive level and also on a ubiquity level. Few people have ever heard “based” used as a slang term, and no one could intuit its meaning without strong context cues.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    We don’t need a “right wing” and a “left wing” version for every word.
     
    Yeah, we do. It’s all about turf and signaling and dominance and submission. Think about it.
    , @res

    We don’t need a “right wing” and a “left wing” version for every word.
     
    In this context I think we do given that the words "woke" and "based" tend to mean the opposite. Right?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  53. People who make things tend to dislike DST, unlike people who generate paper/electrons.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  54. LondonBob says:

    Interestingly when the changes were reversed the Russians actually introduced two new time zones. They must have really learnt the importance of clocks being dictated by the sun rather than some arbitrary point in time. Time zones and DST are really based on the same principle.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-28423647

    Russia already has nine time zones – but now the area around the Volga River will run one hour ahead of Moscow, and the country’s remote Kamchatka and Chukotka regions in the far east will be nine hours ahead – giving Russia a total of 11 time zones. Correspondents say the aim is to make sure local time matches the rising of the sun as closely as possible.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  55. Anon[323] • Disclaimer says: • Website
    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  56. @dearieme
    When we lived in Edinburgh people liked to squeeze in a round of golf, teeing off at 19:00. Of course if they'd played at the American pace they'd have had to abandon their rounds unfinished.

    I just reread P.G. Wodehouse’s collected golf stories and the characters appear to play 18 holes in not too much over 2 hours. For example, in the earliest story, from 1914, a plot point is that a bad golfer in a match play tournament has a tee off time at 11:30 am and makes a date to meet his sweetheart at 1:OO PM because he is eliminated 10 and 8 after playing 10 holes. Of course, being a Wodehouse golf story, suddenly he hits a streak of luck and chooses to battle to the 18th hole to win his first cup, even though his fiance will no doubt call off the wedding.

    How did they play so fast?

    Of course, the tournament final was a twosome, each player with his own caddie.

    I recently played in a foursome at a 100+ year old club on Long Island that no doubt Wodehouse played a few times. We played with two expert caddies. It would have been slightly faster to play with four caddies, but the two caddies successfully materialized like Jeeves at the exact moment you needed them, so having just two caddies couldn’t have slowed us down much. Playing on a perfect 75 degree June day with everybody playing decently or better and walking briskly, it took about exactly 4 hours, maybe 3 hours and 50 minutes. That’s with conceding putts within 3 feet. There was a modest amount of waiting on the tee for the foursome ahead to clear out of range.

    My guess is that in Wodehouse’s day they didn’t wait for the player furthest away to hit first.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  57. @dearieme
    When we lived in Edinburgh people liked to squeeze in a round of golf, teeing off at 19:00. Of course if they'd played at the American pace they'd have had to abandon their rounds unfinished.

    I just reread P.G. Wodehouse’s collected golf stories and the characters appear to play 18 holes in not too much over 2 hours. For example, in the earliest story, from 1914, a plot point is that a bad golfer in a match play tournament has a tee off time at 11:30 am and makes a date to meet his sweetheart at 1:OO PM because he is eliminated 10 and 8 after playing 10 holes. Of course, being a Wodehouse golf story, suddenly he hits a streak of luck and chooses to battle to the 18th hole to win his first cup, even though his fiance will no doubt call off the wedding.

    How did they play so fast?

    Of course, the tournament final was a twosome, each player with his own caddie.

    I recently played in a foursome at a 100+ year old club on Long Island that no doubt Wodehouse played a few times. We played with two expert caddies. It would have been slightly faster to play with four caddies, but the two caddies successfully materialized like Jeeves at the exact moment you needed them, so having just two caddies couldn’t have slowed us down much. Playing on a perfect 75 degree June day with everybody playing decently or better and walking briskly, it took about exactly 4 hours, maybe 3 hours and 50 minutes. That’s with conceding putts within 3 feet. There was a modest amount of waiting on the tee for the foursome ahead to clear out of range.

    My guess is that in Wodehouse’s day they didn’t wait for the player furthest away to hit first.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dearieme
    Foursome or four ball?

    P.S. I'd have been chucked off my boyhood course if I'd taken four hours. Even the Ladies didn't take four hours. And we were our own caddies of course - boys carrying their own bags, adults usually pulling trolleys.

    , @PiltdownMan
    Wodehouse, ready for the links.

    https://secure.i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03376/PG-Wodehouse-Getty_3376794b.jpg
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  58. Dtbb says:
    @utu
    Putin is behind it

    Putin abolishes 'daylight savings' time change, 22 July 2014
    https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-28423647
     

    Was watching world cup, I forget from which city, but time difference was six hours and i noticed in background shots it was getting dark at 930 their time. It made no sense to me because of their latitude. I searched the city’s sunrise time and it eas 330 am. Who wants that? Do farmers and construction workers just ignore the clock? I like the current system here and love 7 to 330 construction hours because I beat the traffic both ways. Any request to work later and I insist on being paid til 6 pm no matter when I finish. Makes no sense to sit in traffic to me.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu

    Who wants that? Do farmers and construction workers just ignore the clock?
     
    Do farmers and construction worker need government to tell them what time it is? Apparently you and Sailer do.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  59. they seem to manage perfectly fine without DST in all the other nations…

    also, politicians just do whatever the media tells them to do…did ya ever notice?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  60. dearieme says:
    @Steve Sailer
    I just reread P.G. Wodehouse's collected golf stories and the characters appear to play 18 holes in not too much over 2 hours. For example, in the earliest story, from 1914, a plot point is that a bad golfer in a match play tournament has a tee off time at 11:30 am and makes a date to meet his sweetheart at 1:OO PM because he is eliminated 10 and 8 after playing 10 holes. Of course, being a Wodehouse golf story, suddenly he hits a streak of luck and chooses to battle to the 18th hole to win his first cup, even though his fiance will no doubt call off the wedding.

    How did they play so fast?

    Of course, the tournament final was a twosome, each player with his own caddie.

    I recently played in a foursome at a 100+ year old club on Long Island that no doubt Wodehouse played a few times. We played with two expert caddies. It would have been slightly faster to play with four caddies, but the two caddies successfully materialized like Jeeves at the exact moment you needed them, so having just two caddies couldn't have slowed us down much. Playing on a perfect 75 degree June day with everybody playing decently or better and walking briskly, it took about exactly 4 hours, maybe 3 hours and 50 minutes. That's with conceding putts within 3 feet. There was a modest amount of waiting on the tee for the foursome ahead to clear out of range.

    My guess is that in Wodehouse's day they didn't wait for the player furthest away to hit first.

    Foursome or four ball?

    P.S. I’d have been chucked off my boyhood course if I’d taken four hours. Even the Ladies didn’t take four hours. And we were our own caddies of course – boys carrying their own bags, adults usually pulling trolleys.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dtbb
    How come none of you fast golfers are in florida during the winter? 6 hour rounds with a cart are the norm.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  61. E e says:
    @Anon
    If the proposal is to abolish "fall back" then I'm all for it. The extra daylight in the evening is quite nice as opposed to it getting dark at 5 pm.

    You don’t live in New England, obviously. After Daylight Savings ends, it gets dark shortly after 4pm. 5pm sunset in the winter would be wonderful!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  62. E e says:
    @Anon
    "In Europe, people are much more informed..."

    Europeans as a whole? Legal citizens? Legacy white Europeans? I think that the degree of "informedness" is dropping like a brick. Enjoy it while it lasts.

    Check percent of people who think GMOs are Evil in the US vs Europe, or, worse, the vaccination rate… It’s a problem in the US, but the number of measles cases is a statistical error compared to Europe this summer. I’ll take gullibility over time changes any day.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  63. E e says:
    @PhysicistDave
    ScarletNumber wrote:

    For those of you who don’t like DST, the sun would rise at 4:30 for most of the summer. The daylight would be wasted.
     
    That is indeed the point.

    Having the sun rise when almost everyone is still in bed is a nuisance unless you have very good room-darkening shades. Having an extra hour of sunlight in the evening after work and after school is at least a minor advantage.

    It's not earthshaking, but it is common sense: let's schedule our day so that we do not have sunlight when it would be a nuisance and do have sunlight when it provides some benefit.

    The only people who should object is those who really do want the sun to wake them up at 4:30 a.m. (I take it some farmers do want this).

    I lived in Boston after college and was on a rowing team that practiced at 5:30am. I loved that it was already light out at 4:30. On the flip side, it’s utterly depressing when it’s completely dark at 4:30pm in the winter…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  64. One of my earlier lessons that the respectable press is not always infallible came in 1973, when in response to the energy crisis, Time Magazine editorialized [....]
    Then Time editorialized about how stupid Congress had been to get rid of switching, without mentioning that they had been for it just months earlier.

    So many of the ingredients to our current mess are in this one example:

    - The mass media (Time magazine) exercises power without responsibility and can’t be called on it, except around some dinner tables “out there” somewhere.

    - The early ’70s energy crisis is when our technocrats had to go into MacGyver mode. For one thing, Germany and France both introduced “family unification” immigration laws in order to bring in the families of North African and Turkish guest workers. Like any ponzi scheme, the western economies suddenly needed new “bronze level members” to keep paying off the existing investors.

    It’s worth having a look at the chaotic events that led up to the formation of the G7 consensus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_Seven#History

    Notice though that Congress reversed its policy. They were still reality-based enough to correct for errors. If this were done now, they’d just tell their flying monkeys in the media to attack anyone who questioned their decision. Somehow accusations of racism, misogyny and homophobia would become central to the “debate” on daylight saving time. Such is life in a degenerated technocracy.

    Our technocratic elite has even produced its own Lady Bountiful. I refer, of course, to Peggy McIntosh and her knapsack of White privilege: https://quillette.com/2018/08/29/unpacking-peggy-mcintoshs-knapsack/

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  65. jim jones says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    I think this whole discussion, along with the switching of the clocks back and forth, is completely unneessary. In addition it shows that a bit of the statist mindset has crept into most people that discuss this issue.

    You are not gaining or losing any daylight - we all know that, I hope. Why should the government be let to run your life like this, getting you running around the house switching the clocks? It's a lot more trouble than that (as a computer-type in the comments already wrote) for software, airline scheduling, payroll departments, etc.

    If people in Seattle, let's say, want to have more daylight in the morning in winter for the safety of the school kids, then they can change the school schedule whatever date they want and switch it back whatever date they want. If I run a softball league, I can make the games start earlier in the late fall. You don't have to go switching the "official" time - just change your schedules to suit the sun and the needs of your students, employees, or softball players.

    What is so bad about letting people make their own decisions about when to get up? No, it seems to be all "the government needs to ..." and "the government shouldn't do ..." Don't let the government live rent-free in your heads, people. They already steal 2 to 4 hours of the fruits of your daily labor, whether it's daylight or standard time.

    I wonder how many clocks people have in their houses now, my neighbour always complains when we change from GMT because he has to reset his Central Heating timer

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  66. jb says:
    @International Jew
    What if we took ten minutes away from every hour between 6AM and 10PM and gave those extra minutes to the hours between 10PM and 6AM? We'd have more daylight hours that way (and fewer nighttime hours) — year-round.

    Maybe people would get more sleep this way too; they could hit the sack at midnight and get up at 6, but they'd have actually spent 480 minutes in bed!

    No no no, that’s way too complicated, and doesn’t address the real problem. We need to take an hour of daylight away from the days in summer and redistribute those hours to the days in winter. That way no part of the year is unfairly deprived of daylight.

    Or wait, maybe that’s what daylight savings time already does. Is it? I’m confused…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  67. @AndrewR
    The farther from the tropics you are, the more winter sucks, and no chronological whack-a-mole changes this fact. If the purpose of DST is to maximize the amount of time people are awake during the winter daytime, it clearly fails. Way more people are asleep at 7/8/9 A.M. than at 4/5/6 P.M. "Falling back" just means that more people are asleep during the first hours of daylight without a corresponding decrease in the number of people asleep during the last hours of daylight.

    The only truly convincing argument in favor of DST is "muh schoolchildren," and I'm not sure that argument outweighs the havoc that the twice-yearly changes in time wreaks on people's schedules (particularly in the spring with more drowsy drivers out after the time change)

    AGREED

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  68. @anon

    Why not stay on daylight time, but have the kids start school an hour or two later?
     
    Because that is the simple and obvious solution. Making all of society live on pretend time six months of the year is the more complex and stupid solution, so that is what we do.

    That’s pretty much what I said, but more succinct and earlier. ;-}

    Agreed, #363, you can’t fool Mother Nature.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  69. Aardvark says:

    I propose we call it for what it is:
    DTS = Daylight Time Shifting.
    We haven’t saved anything.
    Maybe we could also call it:
    FGST = Feel Good Saving Time; so the children don’t have to go to school when it’s dark.
    RST = Recreational Saving Time; for the industries that lobby Congress to extend DST so we can have more Golf or Halloween.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  70. Bryan says:

    I just think it’s odd that, rather than change our day to match the reality of the big star’s schedule, we assume the work day is the unchangeable absolute around which reality must bend.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  71. Daylight savings time was always useless for me as Finland is just too far north for the clock to ever be matched with sunlight. When it’s only a couple of hours between sunrise and sunset, kids go to school when its dark and they come home when its dark, unless we moved the clocks by almost an hour every month to match sunrise. In the summer it never gets dark.

    Its uselessness for far northern territories is probably also why Russia dropped it. The United States is far to the south so perhaps it makes more sense there.

    The downside of this move for me is that it makes a great pro-EU argument. Pre-EU the argument for DST was that even though its useless for us we need to have it to fit our schedules to European trade partners. In the EU we could previously claim DST as an example of a southern policy that’s enforced on peripheral northern countries because the EU is committed to one-size-fits-all standardization – but after Finnish politicians were unified across political lines in lobbying against DST they can now remind us that without the EU we would have had no channel to oppose DST in Germany.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dearieme
    It's one of Hitler's unreversed triumphs that Paris and the Low Countries have stuck to Berlin time.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  72. Corn says:

    I think DST is a scam. My thinking is more along the lines of Dave Pinsen’s and what a commenter named eD suggested a day or two ago: let businesses implement summer and winter hours, instead of messing with the clock.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  73. JSM says:

    Here in the U.S., after a lot of fiddling over the years, the timing of daylight savings time is pretty close to optimized.

    Are you forgetting, Steve?….

    DST was optimized in Oct. 1974, when US went *back* to the old dates for start / end of DST: DST start last Sunday in April, end last Sunday in October.

    It makes sense, well after spring equinox when the sun is in the far north, to get up an hour earlier (which is what is actually happening. There’s no such thing as “saving daylight.” You simply get up an hour earlier when you “spring ahead”) and go to sleep an hour earlier, which makes your sleep phase coincide with dark.

    But, remember Obama? “OH! Energy crisis! Let’s have more nearly year-round DST! Let’s start it in March and end in November!” Which does what? Nothing other than force kiddoes to stand in the cold and dark waiting their school bus in those months.

    DST doesn’t do anything for energy savings. Because what happens in summer? You go to work an hour earlier, you come home an hour earlier. So, when you come home, even though the clock says 5 pm, by the sun it’s really 4 pm — the hottest hour of the day. So you leave your already-air-conditioned office, get in your hottest-possible car, flip on the AC. Drive to your hot home, flip on the A/C. Ask any power plant employee. They’ll tell you about the 5 pm surge of power demand for all those air conditioners suddenly running. Meanwhile all the already-cooled office buildings stand empty.

    For energy savings, it would make more sense to fall BACK on the clock in the summer, so people would stay in their air-conditioned offices until it’s 5 pm by the clock, but 6 pm by the sun so that some of the cool of the evening has cooled off your car and home before you get in.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  74. I lived in Japan for a couple of years. The timezone they use is such that the sun comes up before 5 a.m. for about three months of the summer. My apartment had blackout blinds, but even so, the brilliant sunlight would leak in through the sides before I would wake up at 5:45 a.m. for work.

    I would tire of the brilliant early morning sunshine by mid-summer. It was a faintly weird feeling to being blasted by sunlight, repeatedly, in the wee hours of the morning. It felt a bit like very faint jetlag. Daylight savings time would have helped—Japan doesn’t use it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    I got in the habit of using a sleep mask when I was younger, so I don't really care about whether it's light outside or not.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  75. @Steve Sailer
    I just reread P.G. Wodehouse's collected golf stories and the characters appear to play 18 holes in not too much over 2 hours. For example, in the earliest story, from 1914, a plot point is that a bad golfer in a match play tournament has a tee off time at 11:30 am and makes a date to meet his sweetheart at 1:OO PM because he is eliminated 10 and 8 after playing 10 holes. Of course, being a Wodehouse golf story, suddenly he hits a streak of luck and chooses to battle to the 18th hole to win his first cup, even though his fiance will no doubt call off the wedding.

    How did they play so fast?

    Of course, the tournament final was a twosome, each player with his own caddie.

    I recently played in a foursome at a 100+ year old club on Long Island that no doubt Wodehouse played a few times. We played with two expert caddies. It would have been slightly faster to play with four caddies, but the two caddies successfully materialized like Jeeves at the exact moment you needed them, so having just two caddies couldn't have slowed us down much. Playing on a perfect 75 degree June day with everybody playing decently or better and walking briskly, it took about exactly 4 hours, maybe 3 hours and 50 minutes. That's with conceding putts within 3 feet. There was a modest amount of waiting on the tee for the foursome ahead to clear out of range.

    My guess is that in Wodehouse's day they didn't wait for the player furthest away to hit first.

    Wodehouse, ready for the links.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dearieme
    That's often how my father dressed for golf. His friends would refer to his breeks variously as knickerbockers, plus fours, or plus twos. But naughty little boys, such as his sons, knew them as "shitkeppers".
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  76. Barnard says:

    I am assuming this will get it’s own post. The Atlantic interviews Margaret Hagerman who wrote a book about white privilege after following around the 10-13 year old children of a few affluent white liberals for two years. One of the highlights:

    Pinsker: So far we’ve talked about how white parents shape their children’s views on race. But a big theme of the book is that kids themselves actively contribute to the formation of racist beliefs. How does that work?

    Hagerman: One of the things I was really struck by was how frequently some of these children used the phrase “that’s racist” or “you’re racist.” They were using this word in contexts that had nothing to do with race: They were playing chess, and they would talk about what color chess pieces they wanted to have, and then one of them would say, “Oh, that’s racist”—so, things that had to do with colors, but also sometimes just out of the blue, instead of saying “that’s stupid.” These kids have taken this phrase, “that’s racist,” and inverted it in a way such that it’s become meaningless.

    Plus a call to sacrifice your children’s opportunities for success to the god of diversity:

    This might mean a parent votes for policies that would lead to the best possible outcome for as many kids as possible, but might be less advantageous for their own child. My overall point is that in this moment when being a good citizen conflicts with being a good parent, I think that most white parents choose to be good parents, when, sometimes at the very least, they should choose to be good citizens.

    The answer to the last question is an all time classic. These people are beyond parody.

    Pinsker: I don’t doubt that you’re onto something, but, pragmatically speaking, wouldn’t that ignore a biological impulse to look after one’s own?

    Hagerman: So as a sociologist, I’m much more interested in how things are socially constructed rather than biologically constructed. For example, there are lots of families who have kids who are adopted, or where parents are taking care of kids who aren’t biologically theirs—I don’t have any children, but I care very deeply about other people’s kids, and would do things to protect them. So, I hear what you’re saying, but I wonder if even the way we think about what it means to be a parent is to some extent socially constructed. We have other societies that do things differently. I think when we look across time and history and geography, we can see that the way that we’re doing it—prioritizing your own child over everyone else—is one way, but I don’t think that has to be the only way. I don’t have any grand answer, but I think people could think in bigger ways about what it means to care about one another and what it means to actually have a society that cares about kids.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  77. China has only one time zone. It is somewhat wider than the 48 states, and straddles four time zones in Russia, to the north, IIRC.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Trevor H.
    Interesting. Unfortunately relatively few Chinese live in the far western parts of the country where they might be able to enjoy the later daylight.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  78. DST lasts almost *EIGHT* months (March – November). It’s too damn dark in the morning in March and November. Time to trim it back to six months:

    > 1966: DST would run from the last Sunday in April to the last Sunday in October

    Read More
    • Agree: Dtbb
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  79. Bugg says:

    Leave it so that kids can play baseball and soccer in daylight util 8PM in the spring. The disruptions, especially on the “spring ahead” week are pointless. Simple fact is we get only so much daylight in the US in the fall,deal with that rather than monkeying things up.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  80. @LondonBob
    Portugal and Russia have experimented with abolishing DST, in both cases it was a complete disaster and the experiment was quickly ended. Still it doesn't stop the odd obsessives and their hobby horse.

    I can normally tell when the clocks are about to change as I start naturally going to bed earlier, or later depending on the change. Clocks should fit around the seasonal changes and our body cycles.

    Portugal and Russia have experimented with abolishing DST, in both cases it was a complete disaster and the experiment was quickly ended.

    No, Russia abolished DST with great success. It’s probably one of the few Russian reforms that’s universally agreed upon as a good thing.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  81. @Adrian E.
    The evidence that daylight saving time really saves energy is very weak. See, for instance, https://www.livescience.com/56725-does-daylight-saving-time-save-energy.html

    Claims that dailight saving time saves about 1% of energy are based on simplistic methods. In fact, it is not known whether it saves any energy at all. A study based on a natural experiment found that daylight saving time actually increases energy demand: http://www.nber.org/papers/w14429

    I think one of the characteristics of Americans that often surprises Europeans is how gullible and credulous Americans are. Technocrats and lobbyists just have to claim that something is „optimized“ and most Americans will believe it. It was also very easy to make a majority of the American public believe in the stories about WMD in Iraq, countless examples could be found.

    In Europe, people are much more informed that the actual evidence for the claim that dailight saving time saves energy is very weak. That often came up in discussions of the topic. A further difference might be that European technocrats probably are somewhat less detached from science that the American ones and therefore did not go on with claims based on bogus pseudo-scientific methodology claiming dailight saving time is „optimized“ for saving energy.

    In no case are Europeans less credulous or better informed than Americans.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  82. @Adrian E.
    The evidence that daylight saving time really saves energy is very weak. See, for instance, https://www.livescience.com/56725-does-daylight-saving-time-save-energy.html

    Claims that dailight saving time saves about 1% of energy are based on simplistic methods. In fact, it is not known whether it saves any energy at all. A study based on a natural experiment found that daylight saving time actually increases energy demand: http://www.nber.org/papers/w14429

    I think one of the characteristics of Americans that often surprises Europeans is how gullible and credulous Americans are. Technocrats and lobbyists just have to claim that something is „optimized“ and most Americans will believe it. It was also very easy to make a majority of the American public believe in the stories about WMD in Iraq, countless examples could be found.

    In Europe, people are much more informed that the actual evidence for the claim that dailight saving time saves energy is very weak. That often came up in discussions of the topic. A further difference might be that European technocrats probably are somewhat less detached from science that the American ones and therefore did not go on with claims based on bogus pseudo-scientific methodology claiming dailight saving time is „optimized“ for saving energy.

    “I think one of the characteristics of Americans that often surprises Europeans is how gullible and credulous Americans are”

    Except on Thalidomide, widely snapped up by eager Europeans, viewed skeptically here, with good reason. I don’t know if you’re typing with one of your stubby salamander arms, but you could be.

    I could go on: WW1, seen as a fancy dress party with ordnance in Europe, viewed as a useless slaughter here. Which is why we smartly stayed out …for a while anyway. Unlike the dumb Euros, who rushed in to “have a go.”

    Problem is when European credulity gains critical mass, many people start dying.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  83. TG says:

    I used to hate DST, resetting the clocks, the hassle for keeping scientific records etc. But lately I think I am liking the extra hour of light in the evening.

    The whole energy thing is rubbish, of course. If we want to save energy stop forcing population growth ever higher. If we keep jamming in more people, no amount of tweaking-around-the-edges ‘conservation’ will mean anything.

    Ideally the entire world should just go on universal Greenwich Mean Time, like airline pilots, and we schedule the times we go to work/school as appropriate locally, but when you think about it, this would require even more effort and thought than just the hassle of changing the clocks twice a day.

    And in a perverse way, I think DST reminds people that formal clock time is a construct, it was not mandated by God or the laws of nature. And it reminds us that things can get messed up and confused, it forces us to sweat the details. Not entirely a bad thing, to me.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  84. Trevor H. says:
    @PiltdownMan
    China has only one time zone. It is somewhat wider than the 48 states, and straddles four time zones in Russia, to the north, IIRC.

    Interesting. Unfortunately relatively few Chinese live in the far western parts of the country where they might be able to enjoy the later daylight.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  85. Anon[259] • Disclaimer says:
    @PiltdownMan
    I lived in Japan for a couple of years. The timezone they use is such that the sun comes up before 5 a.m. for about three months of the summer. My apartment had blackout blinds, but even so, the brilliant sunlight would leak in through the sides before I would wake up at 5:45 a.m. for work.

    I would tire of the brilliant early morning sunshine by mid-summer. It was a faintly weird feeling to being blasted by sunlight, repeatedly, in the wee hours of the morning. It felt a bit like very faint jetlag. Daylight savings time would have helped—Japan doesn't use it.

    I got in the habit of using a sleep mask when I was younger, so I don’t really care about whether it’s light outside or not.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  86. Cortes says:

    The campaign for “harmonisation” – the EU velvet-covered sap term beloved by all bureaucrats – goes beyond mere DST and onto the rhythms of daily life of some countries. Here’s a piece proposing adoption of a “harmonised” European style work day for Spain:

    https://www.gerencie.com/los-beneficios-de-un-horario-de-trabajo-al-estilo-europeo.html

    What may be ideal for Frankfurt or Paris may have disproportionately negative effects on family life in countries where leisure time is often organised around the need to dodge the sun, and outdoor manual work during the middle of the day would smack more of slavery than of the operation of a modern economy.

    “One size fits all” or “Any colour as long as it’s black” may possibly work in the case of desirable new consumer products of a wondrous nature but current moves to have uniformity of time are underpinned by the ambitions of grey bureaucrats seeking to make a splash.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  87. anon[176] • Disclaimer says:
    @AndrewR
    We don't need a "right wing" and a "left wing" version for every word.

    "Woke" may have been coined by leftists but its meaning is much more easily understood, both on an intuitive level and also on a ubiquity level. Few people have ever heard "based" used as a slang term, and no one could intuit its meaning without strong context cues.

    We don’t need a “right wing” and a “left wing” version for every word.

    Yeah, we do. It’s all about turf and signaling and dominance and submission. Think about it.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  88. Mark me down as someone who values the sanctity of his circadian rhythms over a bit of perceived sunlight here or there. As others have written, periods of springing forward and falling back are associated with health risks and traffic accidents. Springing forward in particular causes me to be grumpy for quite some time before I fully adjust. Adjusting start times of activities affected by the degree of sunlight seems a more reasonable way to go about these things.

    It’d also save me the trouble of having the perennial arguments with morons who seem to believe that an Act of Congress can change the amount of sunlight that shines on a particular spot on the Earth.

    Read More
    • Replies: @3g4me
    @88 Alec Leamas: "Mark me down as someone who values the sanctity of his circadian rhythms over a bit of perceived sunlight here or there . . . It’d also save me the trouble of having the perennial arguments with morons who seem to believe that an Act of Congress can change the amount of sunlight that shines on a particular spot on the Earth."

    Hear, hear. I HATE Daylight Savings Time, resetting clocks, shifting sleep schedules, and artificially extending my least favorite season of the year. It's already unseasonably hot here in the DFW area in October/November, and my kids used to risk heat stroke going trick-or-treating in costume. Now I'm supposed to get in the "holiday spirit" when it's about 82 degrees and sunny until early evening? When am I supposed to get to wear snuggly sweaters? Drink warm mulled wine? Enjoy a crackly fire? Huh? At least if the evenings are dark it feels a little like autumn. And with the damned thing lasting from March through November, kids here still have to get up and go to school in the dark for the last 4-6 weeks.

    Stop the government messing with time and circadian rhythms in the name of false economy going back to socialist FDR.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  89. Anonymous[853] • Disclaimer says:

    Japan gets by with no DST.

    As a matter of fact, many Japanese have never heard of it and when you explain the concept, they think it is a joke, like Ben Franklin did.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  90. RudyM says:

    It’s not a bad idea. Unnecessarily throwing people’s sleep schedule off twice a year is idiotic.

    As for school start times, don’t start so ridiculously early to begin with.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  91. anon[631] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kyle
    As a working man, I understand the value of daylight savings time. We start our work days at 6 am every day. It’s nice that the sun starts to come out at 7 am, even in the dead of winter. It would suck to be in the dark for 2 hours. I suppose we could buy portable flood light.... but we’ve never had to.
    As a working man I understand the implicitly human advantages of the imperial system of measurements. And inch an be thought of as a unit. One thirty second of that inch has an exact, precise definition. If tolerances call for thirty seconds of an inch, there is an exact and precise way to measure them. 1inch/ (2^5) is precisely equal to one thirty second of an inch. Divide it in half five times. There is definitely merit to the metric system. I’m the lab it’s nice to be able to deal in the abstract. But on the job site you must deal in preciseness.
    As a working man, I understand the value of a penny. If a 24oz of Bush is priced at 1.01$ and I give the cashier a two dollar bill and one penny, I will receive 1 dollar in change. Effectively, the value of a penny can range anywhere from 0€ to 1$.
    There’s some kind of disconnect between people like me and people like her. I’m not sure what it is.

    “As a working man I understand the implicitly human advantages of the imperial system of measurements. And inch an be thought of as a unit. One thirty second of that inch has an exact, precise definition. If tolerances call for thirty seconds of an inch, there is an exact and precise way to measure them. 1inch/ (2^5) is precisely equal to one thirty second of an inch. Divide it in half five times. There is definitely merit to the metric system. I’m the lab it’s nice to be able to deal in the abstract. But on the job site you must deal in preciseness.”

    This is not meant to criticize your way of thinking about measurements; I’m just genuinely curious why and how people find the imperial system easier to deal with. Even while doing carpentry (as an amateur), I find the imperial system infuriating to deal with.

    I once asked, as a lark, a bunch of employees in a (US) supermarket how many ounces were in a gallon of milk. None had any idea. You could say, well, they work in a supermarket, they’re not very bright. How many of the bright people here could answer on the spot, without looking it up or thinking a bit about it (“well, there are 16 oz. in a pint (or is it 20??), there are 2 pints in a quart…”).
    How many could instantly answer the question about how many ml in 2 liters?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Reactionary Utopian

    “As a working man I understand the implicitly human advantages of the imperial system of measurements. And inch an be thought of as a unit. One thirty second of that inch has an exact, precise definition. If tolerances call for thirty seconds of an inch, there is an exact and precise way to measure them. 1inch/ (2^5) is precisely equal to one thirty second of an inch. Divide it in half five times. There is definitely merit to the metric system. I’m the lab it’s nice to be able to deal in the abstract. But on the job site you must deal in preciseness.”

    This is not meant to criticize your way of thinking about measurements ...
     
    I, on the other hand, will be more than happy to criticize -- nay, ridicule -- the "working man's" idiotic way of ... thinking (???) ... about measurements. Yes, inches can be subdivided continuously into infinitesimally small bits. As can meters. Unless it turns out that space is quantized.
    , @Anonymous
    In the US, people typically don't order "pints" as the customary single serving in bars. You order just a specific beer e.g. "1 Heineken", and it's served in the bottle or in a glass if it's on tap. A bottle of beer is 12 ounces, which is a cup and a half. When it's served in a glass, the glass is typically 16 ounces, which is 2 cups, although the size of the glass can vary by venue. 16 ounces is an American pint. Because it's not customary for people to order and be served pints of beer in bars in the US, Americans generally don't have a general, immediate sense and grasp of what a pint is.

    Whereas in the UK, pints are the standard serving in pubs and thus everyone has a sense for what a pint is. The UK pint is a bit more than 2 cups.

    What Americans do have a sense of are cups. Cups are very intuitive because everyone drinks cups of things everyday. Everyone knows roughly what a cup is, can visualize it easily, etc. Everyone has cups of water, cups of coffee, etc. So it's a good intuitive unit. A gallon is 4 quarts, which is easy to remember because quart implies 4 or fourths of something. A quart is 4 cups, which again is easy to remember because the name suggests 4. And everyone knows what 4 cups are. People might not know or remember that a cup has 8 ounces, but that's fine because people often don't speak of ounces but rather in terms of fractions of cups i.e. half a cup, quarter cup, etc., which everyone has a sense of.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  92. Everybody jets to different time zones, so it really doesn’t matter what time it is.

    If you want the most accurate time in the world, call WWV in Fort Collins, Colorado, ph.# 303-499-7111, or listen to it on short wave radio at 5, 10, 15 and 20 megahertz, as I did with my multi-band radio when I was a kid.

    The time is announced each minute as Coordinated Universal Time (Greenwich Mean Time).

    The clocks at WWV are calibrated with the atomic clocks at the National Bureau of Standards (now called NIST, which stands for something else) in Boulder. I’ve seen those clocks.

    This is just another thing that white men, Americans, do better than anybody else and have been for a long time now. It is the standard for the world.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Or time.gov or any of the apps that build a front end to it.
    , @Achmed E. Newman

    If you want the most accurate time in the world, call WWV in Fort Collins, Colorado,
     
    Or, better yet, look up ephemeris tables for Callisto or any of the 3 other Galilean moons of Jupiter (Io, Europa, and Ganymede), find out when the next transit, shadow transit, or occultation starts, then set your phone. That's all you need, really, other than a clear night sky. Why don't they make an app for that? Sure, you could set your phone to auto-update from GPS signals, but where's the fun in that?

    Everybody jets to different time zones, so it really doesn’t matter what time it is.
     
    167 posts in and nobody has embedded this yet. For shame!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qssWO8NSq0
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  93. Brutusale says:
    @Anon
    If the proposal is to abolish "fall back" then I'm all for it. The extra daylight in the evening is quite nice as opposed to it getting dark at 5 pm.

    I’ve always been in favor of the “extra” hour of sleep after the Halloween party.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  94. In Arizona the last thing we want in our hellish summer is more daylight.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  95. Anon[259] • Disclaimer says:
    @Buzz Mohawk
    Everybody jets to different time zones, so it really doesn't matter what time it is.

    If you want the most accurate time in the world, call WWV in Fort Collins, Colorado, ph.# 303-499-7111, or listen to it on short wave radio at 5, 10, 15 and 20 megahertz, as I did with my multi-band radio when I was a kid.

    The time is announced each minute as Coordinated Universal Time (Greenwich Mean Time).

    The clocks at WWV are calibrated with the atomic clocks at the National Bureau of Standards (now called NIST, which stands for something else) in Boulder. I've seen those clocks.

    This is just another thing that white men, Americans, do better than anybody else and have been for a long time now. It is the standard for the world.

    Or time.gov or any of the apps that build a front end to it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    Yes, good point.

    I'm nostalgic. Nothing beats tuning your shortwave radio when you're a kid and listening to things coming in through the fuzz from all over the world, bouncing off the ionosphere.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  96. dearieme says:
    @Jaakko Raipala
    Daylight savings time was always useless for me as Finland is just too far north for the clock to ever be matched with sunlight. When it's only a couple of hours between sunrise and sunset, kids go to school when its dark and they come home when its dark, unless we moved the clocks by almost an hour every month to match sunrise. In the summer it never gets dark.

    Its uselessness for far northern territories is probably also why Russia dropped it. The United States is far to the south so perhaps it makes more sense there.

    The downside of this move for me is that it makes a great pro-EU argument. Pre-EU the argument for DST was that even though its useless for us we need to have it to fit our schedules to European trade partners. In the EU we could previously claim DST as an example of a southern policy that's enforced on peripheral northern countries because the EU is committed to one-size-fits-all standardization - but after Finnish politicians were unified across political lines in lobbying against DST they can now remind us that without the EU we would have had no channel to oppose DST in Germany.

    It’s one of Hitler’s unreversed triumphs that Paris and the Low Countries have stuck to Berlin time.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  97. dearieme says:
    @PiltdownMan
    Wodehouse, ready for the links.

    https://secure.i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03376/PG-Wodehouse-Getty_3376794b.jpg

    That’s often how my father dressed for golf. His friends would refer to his breeks variously as knickerbockers, plus fours, or plus twos. But naughty little boys, such as his sons, knew them as “shitkeppers”.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  98. res says:
    @Johnny789
    From my late teens and onward I've always associated it getting dark outside with the start of fun stuff happening. I've lived in Chicago and LA during those times and both cities are east in their time zones (especially Chicago) so it gets dark pretty early even under DST. I used to love watching Dodgers night games played in SF where it was dark in LA but still light outside up north for quite a while during the game. Cleveland (where I grew up) is pretty far west in its time zone and it didn't get dark until 9:30 at night in the summer which is great when you're a kid. I was a Jr. in HS in 1974 and it stayed dark outside until my 2nd class of the day in Jan and Feb.

    Location within time zone is a good point to raise here. Does that +/- up to half an hour difference make a difference for people’s opinions about DST? Latitude is the bigger issue, of course.

    In my experience standardization is an important issue. Europe and the US being out of sync can be a nuisance. How much of a nuisance is the opposite DST schedules for working with people in the other hemisphere?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bugg
    One odd thing; Newfoundland not only doesn't do DST they are a half hour ahead of the rest of the eastern time zone. So over the summer they're 90 minutes ahead of NY and Boston, but only a half hour ahead after the fall back. Any Canadians have any insight into this?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  99. Anon[394] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    Not the Onion:

    China’s Internment Camp System Rips Children and Parents Apart
    Family separation is happening on a massive scale—and it may rob an entire generation of their Muslim identities.

    SIGAL SAMUEL

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/china-internment-camps-uighur-muslim-children/569062/

    Signal took that whole family separation thing seriously, and didn’t realize it was just a pretense to bash Trump, not save Muslim identities.

    Read More
    • Replies: @LondonBob
    I call fake news on the Reuters claim China interns one million Muslim Uyghurs.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  100. Anon[394] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    Fascinating interview that shows just how much of a silo’d off alternate universe modern sociology is. Genetics, behavioral genetics, psychometrics, twin studies, neuroscience: none of this ever happened. Everything is “socially constructed.”

    How Well-Intentioned White Families Can Perpetuate Racism
    The sociologist Margaret Hagerman spent two years embedded in upper-middle-class white households, listening in on conversations about race.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/09/white-kids-race/569185/

    Read More
    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    Pinsker: I don’t doubt that you’re onto something, but, pragmatically speaking, wouldn’t that ignore a biological impulse to look after one’s own?

    Hagerman: So as a sociologist, I’m much more interested in how things are socially constructed rather than biologically constructed. For example, there are lots of families who have kids who are adopted, or where parents are taking care of kids who aren’t biologically theirs—I don’t have any children, but I care very deeply about other people’s kids, and would do things to protect them. So, I hear what you’re saying, but I wonder if even the way we think about what it means to be a parent is to some extent socially constructed.
     

    Anti-biological and non-falsifiable and …

    surprise, surprise!

    … the ravings of yet another barren womb.


    How much better would life be in the West if someone would have just knocked up all these dry shrivelled-up womb types? And they would be happier women as well!

    Now that's a "socially-constructed" disaster.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  101. Bugg says:
    @res
    Location within time zone is a good point to raise here. Does that +/- up to half an hour difference make a difference for people's opinions about DST? Latitude is the bigger issue, of course.

    In my experience standardization is an important issue. Europe and the US being out of sync can be a nuisance. How much of a nuisance is the opposite DST schedules for working with people in the other hemisphere?

    One odd thing; Newfoundland not only doesn’t do DST they are a half hour ahead of the rest of the eastern time zone. So over the summer they’re 90 minutes ahead of NY and Boston, but only a half hour ahead after the fall back. Any Canadians have any insight into this?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    Newfoundland is a half hour ahead of Atlantic Time but an hour and a half ahead of Eastern Time. Canada's Maritime provinces (Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island) and Labrador are on Atlantic Time.
    , @Pericles
    As any programmer who has encountered tz knows, time zones are oddities.

    "Most of the time zones on land are offset from Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) by a whole number of hours (UTC−12 to UTC+14), but a few zones are offset by 30 or 45 minutes (e.g. Newfoundland Standard Time is UTC−03:30, Nepal Standard Time is UTC+05:45, and Indian Standard Time is UTC+05:30)."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_zone

    Geographically speaking, they need not correspond to longitudes or anything like that either.

    https://37tx5035jacw32yb7m4b6qev-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Solar_time_vs_standard_time.png

    (The URL looks a bit dodgy, so I'll add the caption that it's a map of the geographical extent of time zones.)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  102. Anonymous[108] • Disclaimer says:

    Location within time zone is a good point to raise here. Does that +/- up to half an hour difference make a difference for people’s opinions about DST? Latitude is the bigger issue, of course.

    It has been a couple of decades, but I used to live both in Atlanta and B’ham Alabama. My impression was Birmingham was a much earlier rising place, earlier rush hour, what time stuff opened and closed, compared to Atlanta.

    It was kind of like Birmingham was on Atlanta time, effectively, by how people ordered their lives there.

    Birmingham is very far east in in its time zone and Atlanta is very far west, same latitude, similar economics, demographics, so it seems like a good basis of comparison.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  103. EdwardM says:

    DST was just another scheme by Marxists trying to micro-manage economic behavior. I am agnostic about whether we should have current “standard” time or current “daylight” time, but the clocks should be the same year-round.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  104. res says:
    @O'Really
    How can you say the schedule is optimized when it is asymmetric around the winter solstice?

    It makes no sense that standard time lasts for only 7 weeks before the solstice, but 9 weeks after.

    How can you say the schedule is optimized when it is asymmetric around the winter solstice?

    Does anyone have a convincing explanation for why the asymmetry exists with the current magnitude? I looked around and see the following explanations proposed.
    - Temperature
    - Asymmetric day length
    - Asymmetric sunrise/sunset timing

    First caused by temperature inertia, last two caused by elliptical earth orbit.

    The answer from carnegie-ga at the bottom of this link is pretty good: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=96074

    This link gives a very detailed look at sunrise/sunset/duration/etc. and also shows DST timing: https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/

    Looking at an example city in the northern US it looks like sunrise timing is important, but not quite sufficient to explain the size of the asymmetry.

    I found the title wording of this interesting: https://www.timeanddate.com/news/time/europe-may-scrap-dst.html
    The link says “may” while the title on the page says “will.”

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  105. res says:
    @AndrewR
    We don't need a "right wing" and a "left wing" version for every word.

    "Woke" may have been coined by leftists but its meaning is much more easily understood, both on an intuitive level and also on a ubiquity level. Few people have ever heard "based" used as a slang term, and no one could intuit its meaning without strong context cues.

    We don’t need a “right wing” and a “left wing” version for every word.

    In this context I think we do given that the words “woke” and “based” tend to mean the opposite. Right?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  106. Jeff77450 says:

    My preference would be to end DST. (Note: I have flextime at work and can make my hours pretty much whatever I want).

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  107. Why not abolish time altogether?

    George Washington lost 12 days of his life because the Protestant countries jealously held off adopting the Gregorian calendar and Leap Day because, having been introduced in the Papal States, it must have been a Popish plot. (Or it inconvenienced trade partners– whatever.)

    Sweden waited so long they had a February 30th one year.

    https://www.timeanddate.com/date/february-30.html

    https://www.historychannel.com.au/articles/sweden-enjoys-february-30/

    http://www.thathistorynerd.com/2017/03/sweden-gregorian-calendar-and-double.html

    https://vbattu.wordpress.com/2017/03/04/gregorian-calendar/

    Read More
    • Replies: @PNWmossback
    More than you ever wanted to know about DST:

    http://www.webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/index.html

    Local communities used to set clocks based on Local Solar Noon. Faster transportation and near-instantaneous communications rendered that unworkable, unbfortunately. We became slaves to the clock and a more hectic pace of life. Could current technologies allow us to return to the Good Old Days? A GPS watch could correct itself based on your position on the planet. And your computter could compensate for the oddities created in transportation schedules. It would also be a full-employment pr
    , @PNWmossback
    More than you ever wanted to know about DST:

    http://www.webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/index.html

    Local communities used to set clocks based on Local Solar Noon. Faster transportation and near-instantaneous communications rendered that unworkable, unbfortunately. We became slaves to the clock and a more hectic pace of life. Could current technologies allow us to return to the Good Old Days? A GPS watch could correct itself based on your position on the planet. And your computter could compensate for the oddities created in transportation schedules. It would also be a full-employment program for geeks, and an economic benefit.

    Or, perhaps we could eventually elimonate the tilt in the planetary axis, eliminating seasonal sunlight variations. That couldn't have any unintended consequences...
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  108. Jack D says:
    @Adrian E.
    The evidence that daylight saving time really saves energy is very weak. See, for instance, https://www.livescience.com/56725-does-daylight-saving-time-save-energy.html

    Claims that dailight saving time saves about 1% of energy are based on simplistic methods. In fact, it is not known whether it saves any energy at all. A study based on a natural experiment found that daylight saving time actually increases energy demand: http://www.nber.org/papers/w14429

    I think one of the characteristics of Americans that often surprises Europeans is how gullible and credulous Americans are. Technocrats and lobbyists just have to claim that something is „optimized“ and most Americans will believe it. It was also very easy to make a majority of the American public believe in the stories about WMD in Iraq, countless examples could be found.

    In Europe, people are much more informed that the actual evidence for the claim that dailight saving time saves energy is very weak. That often came up in discussions of the topic. A further difference might be that European technocrats probably are somewhat less detached from science that the American ones and therefore did not go on with claims based on bogus pseudo-scientific methodology claiming dailight saving time is „optimized“ for saving energy.

    I am in favor of daylight savings time not because it saves energy but because it coordinates the hours of daylight better with your waking hours. For example, in Philadelphia on the longest day of the year the sun rises at around 5:30 AM and sets at around 8:30 PM as a result of the DST shift. Without the DST shift, the sun would rise at 4:30 AM (when almost everyone is asleep) and set at 7:30PM (depriving a lot of people of after work recreational time).

    On the other hand, on the shortest day of the year, the sun rises at this latitude at around 7:30 and sets at around 4:45 (but only because the clock has been shifted OFF of summer time). If we kept permanent summer time (which I understand is the EU proposal) then sunrise would not happen until 8:30 AM so many people would have to travel to work/school in pitch darkness.

    Keep in mind the clock time is arbitrary – nothing keeps employers/school from shifting their opening hours seasonally or whatever. In China, the whole country is on Beijing time, so in the far western regions in the winter the sun does not rise until almost 10AM. However, many places there shift their winter working hours so the work day starts later.

    Read More
    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @res
    Sounds sensible. Your point about "pitch darkness" is worthwhile. Twilight is important. I wonder if there has ever been research about auto accident rates (per mile traveled) during day, night, and the various phases of twilight.

    Here is detailed sun information for Philadelphia if anyone is interested: https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/philadelphia
    Philly is almost at the center of its time zone as seen by looking at solar noon/midnight.

    In China, the whole country is on Beijing time, so in the far western regions in the winter the sun does not rise until almost 10AM. However, many places there shift their winter working hours so the work day starts later.
     
    Do you (or any Chinese here) have any thoughts about how that works in comparison to time zones? It looks like Beijing stopped using DST in 1991.
    , @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    I am in favor of daylight savings time not because it saves energy but because it coordinates the hours of daylight better with your waking hours. For example, in Philadelphia on the longest day of the year the sun rises at around 5:30 AM and sets at around 8:30 PM as a result of the DST shift. Without the DST shift, the sun would rise at 4:30 AM (when almost everyone is asleep) and set at 7:30PM (depriving a lot of people of after work recreational time).

    On the other hand, on the shortest day of the year, the sun rises at this latitude at around 7:30 and sets at around 4:45 (but only because the clock has been shifted OFF of summer time). If we kept permanent summer time (which I understand is the EU proposal) then sunrise would not happen until 8:30 AM so many people would have to travel to work/school in pitch darkness.
     
    I'm in the same area and I don't see the trouble here.

    You can play ball under the lights in the summer. It gets dark enough in advance of children's bed times so that they can chase lightening bugs for a half hour. Have you ever tried convincing a young child that it's really their bedtime even though it's still light out?

    Early sunsets in the winter mean you can see the Christmas lights on your way home from work. The winter sunsets can be spectacular. There's something cozy and homely in my view about coming home with Jack Frost nipping at your nose when it's dark out, and starting a fire in the fireplace for the evening. Having a few belts at the local after work is more seemly when it's dark outside.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  109. @Digital Samizdat
    Far be it from me to agree with Angela Merkel about anything, but I never saw the point in DST either. Do we really save enough energy to justify jet-lagging everyone twice a year?

    If that was adopted in the UK, most of the country in winter would be dark til 9 am i.e the time when most people have to be at work and children have to be in school.

    The current system means that even in winter, kids can get to and from school in daylight, except in the very far North and Orkney/Shetland i.e. least populated areas.

    (Some places, like Darwin in Australia, have half hour time zones. It’s 02.59 there now)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  110. More daylight in the evenings is better

    Permanent DST

    But either way, not messing around with everyone’s internal clocks 2x a year would be improvement

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    What's the damn diff? If we were in permanent ST instead, could we not just change our school, workplace, or team practice hours?

    I think the discussion here is still interesting, but per a Peak Stupidity post just off the keyboard (including my thoughts on China from yesterday), why do we need the government involved to begin with?*

    Leave our clocks be, BIG TIME!

    .

    * Sure, besides the National Bureau of Standards. That's one agency that I do get.

    , @Jack D
    The problem is that in the winter, daylight is a scarce resource - more daylight in the evening means less daylight in the morning. In the middle of summer, less daylight at 4:30AM is no big deal. But less daylight at 8:30 AM IS a big deal - it means kids waiting for their school bus in darkness, etc.

    Studies show that teenagers especially are not their best early in the morning but most school systems (because of school bus schedules) start high school BEFORE elementary schools - sometimes kids have to be at their bus stops at 6:30 AM. Probably the elementary schools should start first.

    But probably they should start everyone later in winter (and businesses should start earlier in the summer) Doing that is just as effective as changing the clock for everyone but for some reason people would rather change the entire calendar than the opening hours of their businesses.

    Maybe instead of actually changing the clock we could degree two official (and optional) business hour change days. Businesses could still keep the same hours year round or change on other days, but they would all be encouraged to change together on those two days (the former DST change days). In the summer the sun would set at 7:30PM instead of 8:30 but instead of leaving at 5PM in the summer, you'd come in an hour earlier and leave at 4PM which would leave you the same 3.5 hrs of daylight after work.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  111. res says:
    @Jack D
    I am in favor of daylight savings time not because it saves energy but because it coordinates the hours of daylight better with your waking hours. For example, in Philadelphia on the longest day of the year the sun rises at around 5:30 AM and sets at around 8:30 PM as a result of the DST shift. Without the DST shift, the sun would rise at 4:30 AM (when almost everyone is asleep) and set at 7:30PM (depriving a lot of people of after work recreational time).

    On the other hand, on the shortest day of the year, the sun rises at this latitude at around 7:30 and sets at around 4:45 (but only because the clock has been shifted OFF of summer time). If we kept permanent summer time (which I understand is the EU proposal) then sunrise would not happen until 8:30 AM so many people would have to travel to work/school in pitch darkness.

    Keep in mind the clock time is arbitrary - nothing keeps employers/school from shifting their opening hours seasonally or whatever. In China, the whole country is on Beijing time, so in the far western regions in the winter the sun does not rise until almost 10AM. However, many places there shift their winter working hours so the work day starts later.

    Sounds sensible. Your point about “pitch darkness” is worthwhile. Twilight is important. I wonder if there has ever been research about auto accident rates (per mile traveled) during day, night, and the various phases of twilight.

    Here is detailed sun information for Philadelphia if anyone is interested: https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/philadelphia
    Philly is almost at the center of its time zone as seen by looking at solar noon/midnight.

    In China, the whole country is on Beijing time, so in the far western regions in the winter the sun does not rise until almost 10AM. However, many places there shift their winter working hours so the work day starts later.

    Do you (or any Chinese here) have any thoughts about how that works in comparison to time zones? It looks like Beijing stopped using DST in 1991.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jack D
    Actually Philly is not at the center but close to the eastern edge of the Eastern Time Zone, which runs thru the meridian at 75 degrees west (NY is even closer). The actual time zone borders are manipulated to follow political borders, etc. but the basis pattern is that there is a new time zone every 15 degrees (x24 =360). Zero degrees runs thru Greenwich, England which is not the MIDDLE of its time zone but the eastern edge of it and so on for every time zone, so the people at the western edge of a zone live in a sort of permanent daylight savings time.

    Terre Haute, Indiana is at the far western edge of the eastern time zone and on some days during daylight savings solar noon does not occur until almost 2PM (with sunrise and sunset also shifted).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  112. OFF TOPIC

    Trump must immediately call up the American People’s Army and destroy the NBC/Comcast evil ones who have attacked the United States of America.

    Nigel Farage famously called up the English People’s Army — perhaps after imbibing many pints of ale — and he called on his troops to smash the tyrannical stranglehold the EU had over English sovereignty and freedom of action.

    President Trump could use a double envelopment strategy to attack the NBC/Comcast headquarters in Philadelphia. Trump troops out of the South and the North could descend on Philadelphia and lay waste to every bit of NBC/Comcast anti-American evil.

    Trump could then start Trump TV to give voice to tens of millions of Americans who reject the horrible corporate propaganda emanating from the lying electronic and lying newspaper outlets.

    Do More Than Take A Look At Their Broadcast License, Trumpy!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  113. RobJ says:

    Daylight Swindle Time is an abomination.
    More people die from heart attacks and traffic accidents when we have to “spring forward.”
    Parents of young children don’t get an extra hour of sleep when we “fall back.”
    People who drive to work, and live west of their jobs, get the worst rising/setting sun glare in their faces 4 times per year, instead of only twice.

    Daylight Swindle Time is a failure.
    It was supposed to save energy because people would turn on their lights later in the evening, but it causes higher energy use because people run their air conditioners longer.
    It was supposed to encourage outdoor activity, but Americans are fatter than ever.

    Daylight Swindle Time is a massive, failed government intrusion that causes death and suffering. Just say no to Daylight Swindle Time.

    P.S. It seems that every time an operating system company, such as Red Hat, updates its time zone package to reflect recent government changes to DST rules, one of the governments that’s always on the list is the Palestinian Authority. I suspect that the P.A. does this every year as a free publicity stunt, because they’re mentioned in the README for the update. Sounds like an iSteve topic…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  114. @27 year old
    More daylight in the evenings is better

    Permanent DST

    But either way, not messing around with everyone’s internal clocks 2x a year would be improvement

    What’s the damn diff? If we were in permanent ST instead, could we not just change our school, workplace, or team practice hours?

    I think the discussion here is still interesting, but per a Peak Stupidity post just off the keyboard (including my thoughts on China from yesterday), why do we need the government involved to begin with?*

    Leave our clocks be, BIG TIME!

    .

    * Sure, besides the National Bureau of Standards. That’s one agency that I do get.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    ...why do we need the government involved to begin with?*

     

    Railroads, not governments (local or otherwise) introduced the concept of time zones.

    Remember when prime-time network TV was delayed in the Mountain and Pacific zones, but shown simultaneously in Eastern and Central time? That means Midwestern kids ( and those in the Plains, and the western half of the South) were watching stuff that would have been after bedtime in other zones.

    I'm sure that has had some psychological effect regionally, but am unsure what that might be. Has anybody done an electoral study by time zone, for example?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  115. Jack D says:
    @27 year old
    More daylight in the evenings is better

    Permanent DST

    But either way, not messing around with everyone’s internal clocks 2x a year would be improvement

    The problem is that in the winter, daylight is a scarce resource – more daylight in the evening means less daylight in the morning. In the middle of summer, less daylight at 4:30AM is no big deal. But less daylight at 8:30 AM IS a big deal – it means kids waiting for their school bus in darkness, etc.

    Studies show that teenagers especially are not their best early in the morning but most school systems (because of school bus schedules) start high school BEFORE elementary schools – sometimes kids have to be at their bus stops at 6:30 AM. Probably the elementary schools should start first.

    But probably they should start everyone later in winter (and businesses should start earlier in the summer) Doing that is just as effective as changing the clock for everyone but for some reason people would rather change the entire calendar than the opening hours of their businesses.

    Maybe instead of actually changing the clock we could degree two official (and optional) business hour change days. Businesses could still keep the same hours year round or change on other days, but they would all be encouraged to change together on those two days (the former DST change days). In the summer the sun would set at 7:30PM instead of 8:30 but instead of leaving at 5PM in the summer, you’d come in an hour earlier and leave at 4PM which would leave you the same 3.5 hrs of daylight after work.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  116. @jesse helms think-alike
    Daylight Savings Time works fine as it is. It is not used in Arizona or Hawaii, two states associated with two of the most evil men to have risen to high office in the United State.

    It is astonishing to me that over three years after irrevocably wrecking her country by welcoming a flood of third world invaders Merkel remains safely in her Chancellor's perch.

    Maybe some German readers can clue us in: what is wrong with Germany? Even Hillary, who never got the chance to do the damage Merkel has done (which she intended to do and more) would have been voted out at the first opportunity.

    Even Hillary… would have been voted out at the first opportunity

    You mean the Iowa caucuses? Three years is a long way to “first opportunity”.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  117. @International Jew
    What if we took ten minutes away from every hour between 6AM and 10PM and gave those extra minutes to the hours between 10PM and 6AM? We'd have more daylight hours that way (and fewer nighttime hours) — year-round.

    Maybe people would get more sleep this way too; they could hit the sack at midnight and get up at 6, but they'd have actually spent 480 minutes in bed!

    What if we took ten minutes away from every hour between 6AM and 10PM and gave those extra minutes to the hours between 10PM and 6AM?

    You know, it’s interesting. When I was a very young boy, I assumed that’s how Daylight Savings Time actually worked. I had heard people talking about setting the clocks back in the Fall, and saying that the days were getting shorter, but I had never had the entire concept explained to me systematically. So my mind, filling in the ambiguous information, concluded that the actual clock-hours between sunrise and sunset were compressed during the winter. I immediately took a liking to this idea because I thought, “Awesome, I get to spend less time in school!”

    That always prompted me to wonder what it might be like if the time between sunrise and sunset was always divided into twelve equal hours, irrespective of the actual length of day. Of course, timekeeping under such a scenario would become an absolute horror, since the clocks would have to change not only from day to day, but also from latitude to latitude. Nobody would ever be on the same time, and scheduling would become a practical impossibility.

    This is probably why “clock time” has risen to such prominence in the first place. As unnatural as it is, it is the only means we have of coordinating group activity. Most of the work that people do involves some sort of collaborative effort, and in order to collaborate effectively you have to get people together at the same times and/or places. Simply saying “Be at the job by sunup” isn’t precise enough, nor does it allow for a proper degree of accountability. But living life according to clock time is always burdensome to some greater or lesser degree. The clock takes no notice of the differences between individuals, of circadian rhythms, of youth and age, male and female, sickness and health. By fitting everyone into its Procrustean bed, it fits no one perfectly.

    Worse than that, however, is the time-card, i.e. the notion that employees should be paid simply for time spent “on the clock.” The hours spent on a task are often a poor proxy for productivity, and it’s an easy system to game. For many, many jobs out there, the employee’s actual productive value to the firm is much more closely indexed to the amount of work done, and therefore it only stands to reason that such employees should be paid for piecework. And if you work in front-line management (as I do), you know that one of your constant headaches is the need to control for overtime, to get people “off the clock” before their presence there becomes a financial liability. This would not be the case if employees were paid for work performed rather than per unit of time.

    The time-card simply aggregates every employee’s productivity into one lump sum and then divvies out the gain according to an hourly pay scale. This creates a moral hazard by rewarding the lazy workers with the same compensation as that received by the industrious. You might think that in a certain sense, the time-card actually makes things easier on the management because it saves them from the necessity of having to measure productivity on a daily basis. “I can’t count how many widgets each one of my employees makes everyday,” runs the objection. But this convenience comes at the expense that now management has to constantly monitor how every employee is spending his time, which is no less difficult than measuring productivity. And really, the objection involves nothing insurmountable. It should be no great difficulty for management to delegate beforehand the amount of work to be performed each day. “I need you to make sixty widgets today, and when you’re done you can go home.” Under this system, the primary task of management would be controlling for quality rather than time.

    While no system is perfect and any system may be gamed, productivity and quality are much more naturally related to profitability than is mere time spent on the clock. Therefore they ought to be the primary focus of front-line management. Thus, while I don’t have strong opinions about Daylight Savings Time, I do have very strong opinions about the time-card. Unlike the former, this is a problem that our society really does need to address as we move into the difficult fiscal straits ahead. After many decades of manufacturing atrophy and infrastructural neglect, we need to do everything possible to incentivize actual production and we can no longer afford the luxury of paying people simply to show up. Compensation reform is another necessary political battle that I don’t hear anyone else talking about.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  118. @Achmed E. Newman
    What's the damn diff? If we were in permanent ST instead, could we not just change our school, workplace, or team practice hours?

    I think the discussion here is still interesting, but per a Peak Stupidity post just off the keyboard (including my thoughts on China from yesterday), why do we need the government involved to begin with?*

    Leave our clocks be, BIG TIME!

    .

    * Sure, besides the National Bureau of Standards. That's one agency that I do get.

    …why do we need the government involved to begin with?*

    Railroads, not governments (local or otherwise) introduced the concept of time zones.

    Remember when prime-time network TV was delayed in the Mountain and Pacific zones, but shown simultaneously in Eastern and Central time? That means Midwestern kids ( and those in the Plains, and the western half of the South) were watching stuff that would have been after bedtime in other zones.

    I’m sure that has had some psychological effect regionally, but am unsure what that might be. Has anybody done an electoral study by time zone, for example?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  119. On the list of existential worries that keep me up at night, Daylight Savings Time doesn’t make the top 100. Not even close.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  120. @Reg Cæsar
    Why not abolish time altogether?

    George Washington lost 12 days of his life because the Protestant countries jealously held off adopting the Gregorian calendar and Leap Day because, having been introduced in the Papal States, it must have been a Popish plot. (Or it inconvenienced trade partners-- whatever.)

    Sweden waited so long they had a February 30th one year.

    https://vbattu.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/sweden-1712.png?w=327&h=362

    https://www.timeanddate.com/date/february-30.html

    https://www.historychannel.com.au/articles/sweden-enjoys-february-30/

    http://www.thathistorynerd.com/2017/03/sweden-gregorian-calendar-and-double.html

    https://vbattu.wordpress.com/2017/03/04/gregorian-calendar/

    More than you ever wanted to know about DST:

    http://www.webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/index.html

    Local communities used to set clocks based on Local Solar Noon. Faster transportation and near-instantaneous communications rendered that unworkable, unbfortunately. We became slaves to the clock and a more hectic pace of life. Could current technologies allow us to return to the Good Old Days? A GPS watch could correct itself based on your position on the planet. And your computter could compensate for the oddities created in transportation schedules. It would also be a full-employment pr

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  121. @Reg Cæsar
    Why not abolish time altogether?

    George Washington lost 12 days of his life because the Protestant countries jealously held off adopting the Gregorian calendar and Leap Day because, having been introduced in the Papal States, it must have been a Popish plot. (Or it inconvenienced trade partners-- whatever.)

    Sweden waited so long they had a February 30th one year.

    https://vbattu.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/sweden-1712.png?w=327&h=362

    https://www.timeanddate.com/date/february-30.html

    https://www.historychannel.com.au/articles/sweden-enjoys-february-30/

    http://www.thathistorynerd.com/2017/03/sweden-gregorian-calendar-and-double.html

    https://vbattu.wordpress.com/2017/03/04/gregorian-calendar/

    More than you ever wanted to know about DST:

    http://www.webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/index.html

    Local communities used to set clocks based on Local Solar Noon. Faster transportation and near-instantaneous communications rendered that unworkable, unbfortunately. We became slaves to the clock and a more hectic pace of life. Could current technologies allow us to return to the Good Old Days? A GPS watch could correct itself based on your position on the planet. And your computter could compensate for the oddities created in transportation schedules. It would also be a full-employment program for geeks, and an economic benefit.

    Or, perhaps we could eventually elimonate the tilt in the planetary axis, eliminating seasonal sunlight variations. That couldn’t have any unintended consequences…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    There's always Saudi Arabia. They set the clock anew every day!

    I want to go to Newfoundland, if only to set my watch ahead half-an-hour. (And to do it at Dildo.)

    There is a time zone, in the Southern Hemisphere I think, that is 15 minutes off its neighbor.

    , @Pericles
    My smartphone seems to quietly set the correct time zone when I travel. Not to mention handling DST, of course.

    I seem to recall a watch denominated in 'beats', a system that was proposed in the 90s. Each beat was something like a second or a few seconds, and you could then conveniently say to your world-skipping friends 'let's have lunch at beat 600'. No time zones there, which was the selling point.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  122. Kyle says:
    @AndrewR
    The farther from the tropics you are, the more winter sucks, and no chronological whack-a-mole changes this fact. If the purpose of DST is to maximize the amount of time people are awake during the winter daytime, it clearly fails. Way more people are asleep at 7/8/9 A.M. than at 4/5/6 P.M. "Falling back" just means that more people are asleep during the first hours of daylight without a corresponding decrease in the number of people asleep during the last hours of daylight.

    The only truly convincing argument in favor of DST is "muh schoolchildren," and I'm not sure that argument outweighs the havoc that the twice-yearly changes in time wreaks on people's schedules (particularly in the spring with more drowsy drivers out after the time change)

    How about people who work outside? I work outside. And I will absolutely advocate for “muh job!!!!!”

    All of you anti DST people, your trying to “took errhh jobs!!!”

    Read More
    • LOL: AndrewR
    • Replies: @JSM
    DST drives me NUTS. It's as if people think that moving clock hands changes what the sun does. It doesn't! The sun rises when it rises. It sets when it sets. What time the clock "says" it is doesn't change that. It only changes when people get up and go to bed in relation to sunrise/sunset.

    So, you people who *care* about how much daylight there is when you start work, those of you who care about when the sun comes up "according to the clock," why can't YOU simply change the stated hours you work?

    IOW, If you want to start, in summer, one and a half or two hours after sunrise, then do it. Your clock would say 6 am, instead of 7 am, but the actual reality is the same; you're starting work one and a half or two hours after sunrise.

    But why force ME to do it? My work makes me arrive when "the clock" says 8, regardless of how long it's been since sunrise. I don't care if the sun's been up for an hour, or three. It makes no difference to my work. Yet you guys who care about daylight and so want to rise early, FORCE me to show up earlier than I would otherwise.
    This is tyranny.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  123. dwb says:
    @Auntie Analogue

    "Here in the U.S., after a lot of fiddling over the years, the timing of daylight savings time is pretty close to optimized."
     
    BINGO! You hit that nail on its head, Mr. Sailer. In fact, I feel that the present Standard Time and Daylight Savings Time schedule is perfect.

    The only Americans I know who detest and deprecate Daylight Savings Time live in Arizona, the only state in North America which stays year-round on Standard Time. Even then, the only Arizonans I know who dislike Daylight Savings Time are those who air travel to other states for business.

    FWIW, Hawaii also does not change its clocks.

    But Hawaii is very close to the equator, so they do not have the extreme changes in sunlight. The point of DST is really lost the closer you get to the equator.

    To be candid, I do not get why this is even an issue. The time change I guess results in a handful of people missing appointments on Sundays (people who, despite the numerous warnings, still fail to set their clocks properly), and I’ve seen some anecdotal claims that, in the days immediately after the change, a slight rise in road accidents. But really – what the hell? THIS is the thing that Angela Merkel wants to have a debate about?

    We lived in Paris for a couple of years, which is quite far north. Not as far as Stockholm, of course. There is just no way around it – in December and January, with “standard” time, you wake up and go to work or get the kids to school in the dark. In late December/early January, the sun will rise at 8.44 AM. And that is WITH “standard time.” If you had “summer” time, that would be at 9.44. It will set just before 5 PM. If you had DST, it would be at 6.

    Either way, you are still travelling in the morning in the dark, and at night in the dark. With 8 hours of sun, you cannot “solve” the problem, so just suck it up.

    (France is kind of unique, as although Paris and London are more or less on the same line of longitude, Paris is an hour forward following the German occupation in WWII – they moved their clocks forward to correspond to the time in Berlin).

    This is a fake issue.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    Belgium, France, the Netherlands, and Spain all belong on London time.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  124. LondonBob says:
    @Anon
    OT

    Not the Onion:

    China’s Internment Camp System Rips Children and Parents Apart
    Family separation is happening on a massive scale—and it may rob an entire generation of their Muslim identities.

    SIGAL SAMUEL
     
    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/china-internment-camps-uighur-muslim-children/569062/

    Signal took that whole family separation thing seriously, and didn't realize it was just a pretense to bash Trump, not save Muslim identities.

    I call fake news on the Reuters claim China interns one million Muslim Uyghurs.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  125. @Steve Sailer
    Why sleep through all that nice sunshine in summer?

    Currently, standard time is only about 4.5 months long, so year round DST would make more sense than year round Standard Time. But November through February would be hard on schoolkids if it were DST.

    I move that we adopt year round Daylight Savings Time, based on Steve Sailer’s proposal.

    My rationale is that switching is terribly disruptive. It takes weeks to get adjusted to the new schedule and there is probably zero electricity savings due to switching (which was the original rationale). ST v. DST? Pick one. I don’t care. Sailer’s rationale (that it is mostly DST now) is persuasive to me (not that I need much persuading). And the fact that DST is “terribly hard on the school kids” is just another benefit of Sailer’s proposal.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  126. tomv says:
    @Dave Pinsen
    Let them start work later.

    For hospitals, or businesses that require workers 24/7, some will have to commute in the dark, just as some commute in the middle of the night now. But do most people really need to be at the office by 8 or 9, or is it just a convention? Let them come to work an hour or two later, and let them work from home more often, if remote work is feasible for their job.

    Really, given the high percentage of bullsh*t jobs, would if more people came in later or worked staggered start times?

    I once had a job as an inside sales rep covering Northern California from the East Coast. My start time was 11am, but I got in around 11:20am most days because no one really looks out for who's coming in at 11. It was a nice commute.

    Let them start work later.

    Isn’t that just a more confusing way of shifting time? If work and school start later, how’s that different from “falling back,” except now you have two sets of nominal hours to deal with?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    Let them work later year round.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  127. Railroads, not governments (local or otherwise) introduced the concept of time zones.

    Yep, that makes sense, Reg. It’s the control of the DST implementation, etc. that I was ranting about.

    Remember when prime-time network TV was delayed …

    I do remember that, Reg..

    Has anybody done an electoral study by time zone, for example?

    That’d be neat – on the county or precinct level you could separate the effects of longitude (time zone) from other variables. I would put lots of money on a simple result that those who watched ZERO TV had the least psychological effects of any sort.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  128. @Johnny789
    From my late teens and onward I've always associated it getting dark outside with the start of fun stuff happening. I've lived in Chicago and LA during those times and both cities are east in their time zones (especially Chicago) so it gets dark pretty early even under DST. I used to love watching Dodgers night games played in SF where it was dark in LA but still light outside up north for quite a while during the game. Cleveland (where I grew up) is pretty far west in its time zone and it didn't get dark until 9:30 at night in the summer which is great when you're a kid. I was a Jr. in HS in 1974 and it stayed dark outside until my 2nd class of the day in Jan and Feb.

    Even worse than Cleveland are Detroit and Indianapolis. Sunset can be as late as 9:13 in the former and 9:17 in the latter. Of course both cities belong in the Central Time Zone.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dtbb
    I always thought the Redwings had an advantage when they played in the western conference. Could the time zone differences been to their advantage? A lot of titles back then.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  129. This is a great topic, because it shows you how spergy the readership of this blog is.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  130. El Dato says:

    OT:

    New Socialist Nationalist Movement in Germany

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  131. @Jack D
    I am in favor of daylight savings time not because it saves energy but because it coordinates the hours of daylight better with your waking hours. For example, in Philadelphia on the longest day of the year the sun rises at around 5:30 AM and sets at around 8:30 PM as a result of the DST shift. Without the DST shift, the sun would rise at 4:30 AM (when almost everyone is asleep) and set at 7:30PM (depriving a lot of people of after work recreational time).

    On the other hand, on the shortest day of the year, the sun rises at this latitude at around 7:30 and sets at around 4:45 (but only because the clock has been shifted OFF of summer time). If we kept permanent summer time (which I understand is the EU proposal) then sunrise would not happen until 8:30 AM so many people would have to travel to work/school in pitch darkness.

    Keep in mind the clock time is arbitrary - nothing keeps employers/school from shifting their opening hours seasonally or whatever. In China, the whole country is on Beijing time, so in the far western regions in the winter the sun does not rise until almost 10AM. However, many places there shift their winter working hours so the work day starts later.

    I am in favor of daylight savings time not because it saves energy but because it coordinates the hours of daylight better with your waking hours. For example, in Philadelphia on the longest day of the year the sun rises at around 5:30 AM and sets at around 8:30 PM as a result of the DST shift. Without the DST shift, the sun would rise at 4:30 AM (when almost everyone is asleep) and set at 7:30PM (depriving a lot of people of after work recreational time).

    On the other hand, on the shortest day of the year, the sun rises at this latitude at around 7:30 and sets at around 4:45 (but only because the clock has been shifted OFF of summer time). If we kept permanent summer time (which I understand is the EU proposal) then sunrise would not happen until 8:30 AM so many people would have to travel to work/school in pitch darkness.

    I’m in the same area and I don’t see the trouble here.

    You can play ball under the lights in the summer. It gets dark enough in advance of children’s bed times so that they can chase lightening bugs for a half hour. Have you ever tried convincing a young child that it’s really their bedtime even though it’s still light out?

    Early sunsets in the winter mean you can see the Christmas lights on your way home from work. The winter sunsets can be spectacular. There’s something cozy and homely in my view about coming home with Jack Frost nipping at your nose when it’s dark out, and starting a fire in the fireplace for the evening. Having a few belts at the local after work is more seemly when it’s dark outside.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JMcG
    Very well put, Alec. Coming home to a warm house in the darkest part of winter is much more human than steeling oneself to stepping out into the howling darkness of an early January morning.

    I believe you have changed my mind on this issue. Will wonders never cease?
    Thanks.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  132. Read More
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Somewhere there is a recording of him saying he's going back to Israel because there's less corruption and violence (and the jazz and ribs are better anyway).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  133. @Anon
    OT

    Fascinating interview that shows just how much of a silo'd off alternate universe modern sociology is. Genetics, behavioral genetics, psychometrics, twin studies, neuroscience: none of this ever happened. Everything is "socially constructed."

    How Well-Intentioned White Families Can Perpetuate Racism
    The sociologist Margaret Hagerman spent two years embedded in upper-middle-class white households, listening in on conversations about race.
     
    https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/09/white-kids-race/569185/

    Pinsker: I don’t doubt that you’re onto something, but, pragmatically speaking, wouldn’t that ignore a biological impulse to look after one’s own?

    Hagerman: So as a sociologist, I’m much more interested in how things are socially constructed rather than biologically constructed. For example, there are lots of families who have kids who are adopted, or where parents are taking care of kids who aren’t biologically theirs—I don’t have any children, but I care very deeply about other people’s kids, and would do things to protect them. So, I hear what you’re saying, but I wonder if even the way we think about what it means to be a parent is to some extent socially constructed.

    Anti-biological and non-falsifiable and …

    surprise, surprise!

    … the ravings of yet another barren womb.

    How much better would life be in the West if someone would have just knocked up all these dry shrivelled-up womb types? And they would be happier women as well!

    Now that’s a “socially-constructed” disaster.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  134. In antiquity the day began at sunrise so there was a sort of natural continuous daylight savings time, updated daily. You could do this today with computers. Have NIST send out a signal to resync all clocks to sunrise at 6 am. The only problem with this is it depends on latitude. Perhaps standardize to 40 degrees North. Maybe do it weekly. It would certainly be less traumatic than doing it twice a year.

    Read More
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    In many cultures it began at sunset (thus "eve," and Jewish Sabbath), but your point is well taken. There's a ton of things we could do with computers but never will.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  135. @Bugg
    One odd thing; Newfoundland not only doesn't do DST they are a half hour ahead of the rest of the eastern time zone. So over the summer they're 90 minutes ahead of NY and Boston, but only a half hour ahead after the fall back. Any Canadians have any insight into this?

    Newfoundland is a half hour ahead of Atlantic Time but an hour and a half ahead of Eastern Time. Canada’s Maritime provinces (Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island) and Labrador are on Atlantic Time.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  136. jJay says:

    The kids in many towns throughout the US would not be able to play Little League baseball during the spring without DST. Not unless the town installed lights for all the baseball fields. Same is probably true for soccer. But I don’t care about soccer.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Right. Standard time is very hard on after school practice if you don't have expensive lights.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  137. The other day I saw an update from Google that was dated “January 31st, 1969″. They’d somehow ended up outputting the Unix version of Year Zero. Unix time counts the seconds since midnight (UTC), January 1st, 1970.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  138. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Adrian E.
    The evidence that daylight saving time really saves energy is very weak. See, for instance, https://www.livescience.com/56725-does-daylight-saving-time-save-energy.html

    Claims that dailight saving time saves about 1% of energy are based on simplistic methods. In fact, it is not known whether it saves any energy at all. A study based on a natural experiment found that daylight saving time actually increases energy demand: http://www.nber.org/papers/w14429

    I think one of the characteristics of Americans that often surprises Europeans is how gullible and credulous Americans are. Technocrats and lobbyists just have to claim that something is „optimized“ and most Americans will believe it. It was also very easy to make a majority of the American public believe in the stories about WMD in Iraq, countless examples could be found.

    In Europe, people are much more informed that the actual evidence for the claim that dailight saving time saves energy is very weak. That often came up in discussions of the topic. A further difference might be that European technocrats probably are somewhat less detached from science that the American ones and therefore did not go on with claims based on bogus pseudo-scientific methodology claiming dailight saving time is „optimized“ for saving energy.

    Jack Lessenberry, a local Michigan lefty authority on journalism and government, who is pretty good on some subjects (but a mere liar on gun issues), once defended Obamacare to disappointed leftists by declaring it only the first step to socialized medicine. Leftists do this all the time. They told you X, you thoughtfully considered X, but if you were actually a part of the conversation and not just a mark, you would have caught that X means X+a gazillion other things, most of which are impossible. This is why it is better in the long run to talk about “commies” and cultmarx. There are environmentalists, probably, but watch for longer and you will see that most of these people are communists who have opted to claim to be environmentalists because it makes a better business card. Universal daylight savings time would save energy if it was also executed with a suite of social and personal changes that have no chance of ever being discussed, just like Obamacare will run smoothly come the Revolution.
    Reasonable people keep forgetting that snakes have fangs.
    Isaac Asimov had a little Jewish nationalist joke wrapped in a concession to theism, claiming that the career of the Roman emperor Titus was all sunshine until he desecrated the Temple. This wierd story is another reminder that Angela Merkel was on track to be the most successful leader in modern European history, and then she touched a Palestinian’s shoulder, and now she can’t catch a break.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  139. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Stan Adams
    OT:

    Rahm Emanuel will not seek a third term:
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/politics/ct-met-chicago-mayor-rahm-emanuel-wont-run-for-reelection-20180904-story.html

    Somewhere there is a recording of him saying he’s going back to Israel because there’s less corruption and violence (and the jazz and ribs are better anyway).

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  140. @jJay
    The kids in many towns throughout the US would not be able to play Little League baseball during the spring without DST. Not unless the town installed lights for all the baseball fields. Same is probably true for soccer. But I don't care about soccer.

    Right. Standard time is very hard on after school practice if you don’t have expensive lights.

    Read More
    • Replies: @LondonBob
    At my boarding school games were moved to after lunch and the afternoon classes moved to early evening in the depths of winter.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  141. J.Ross says: • Website
    @Cloudswrest
    In antiquity the day began at sunrise so there was a sort of natural continuous daylight savings time, updated daily. You could do this today with computers. Have NIST send out a signal to resync all clocks to sunrise at 6 am. The only problem with this is it depends on latitude. Perhaps standardize to 40 degrees North. Maybe do it weekly. It would certainly be less traumatic than doing it twice a year.

    In many cultures it began at sunset (thus “eve,” and Jewish Sabbath), but your point is well taken. There’s a ton of things we could do with computers but never will.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  142. @Achmed E. Newman
    I think this whole discussion, along with the switching of the clocks back and forth, is completely unneessary. In addition it shows that a bit of the statist mindset has crept into most people that discuss this issue.

    You are not gaining or losing any daylight - we all know that, I hope. Why should the government be let to run your life like this, getting you running around the house switching the clocks? It's a lot more trouble than that (as a computer-type in the comments already wrote) for software, airline scheduling, payroll departments, etc.

    If people in Seattle, let's say, want to have more daylight in the morning in winter for the safety of the school kids, then they can change the school schedule whatever date they want and switch it back whatever date they want. If I run a softball league, I can make the games start earlier in the late fall. You don't have to go switching the "official" time - just change your schedules to suit the sun and the needs of your students, employees, or softball players.

    What is so bad about letting people make their own decisions about when to get up? No, it seems to be all "the government needs to ..." and "the government shouldn't do ..." Don't let the government live rent-free in your heads, people. They already steal 2 to 4 hours of the fruits of your daily labor, whether it's daylight or standard time.

    I think this whole discussion, along with the switching of the clocks back and forth, is completely unneessary. In addition it shows that a bit of the statist mindset has crept into most people that discuss this issue.

    You are not gaining or losing any daylight – we all know that, I hope. Why should the government be let to run your life like this, getting you running around the house switching the clocks? It’s a lot more trouble than that (as a computer-type in the comments already wrote) for software, airline scheduling, payroll departments, etc.

    If people in Seattle, let’s say, want to have more daylight in the morning in winter for the safety of the school kids, then they can change the school schedule whatever date they want and switch it back whatever date they want. If I run a softball league, I can make the games start earlier in the late fall. You don’t have to go switching the “official” time – just change your schedules to suit the sun and the needs of your students, employees, or softball players.

    What is so bad about letting people make their own decisions about when to get up? No, it seems to be all “the government needs to …” and “the government shouldn’t do …” Don’t let the government live rent-free in your heads, people. They already steal 2 to 4 hours of the fruits of your daily labor, whether it’s daylight or standard time.

    That’s exactly right. I live in Indiana, which until ten years or so ago was the “other” state that observed EST year-’round. Then Bitch Daniels, who is surely the ultimate Chamber-of-Commerce Republican, got elected governor, twisted the state legislature’s arms, and — voila! — instant EDT. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Yes, the golfers want to play after work. Fine: if they can convince their employers, change their work schedule accordingly during the summer. But, oh, no, that’s not good enough — everybody has to change schedules, in effect, for the benefit of the politically-connected.

    And the process of changing showed what a centrally-controlled shithole we’re living in. Just because the state legislature passed a bill changing to EDT, and the governor signed it, did that make it happen? Don’t make me laugh. All that did was to send a humble request to the Department of Commerce in Mordor, DC, begging to be allowed to change to EDT. And, in due course, having weighed all the imponderables, imperial permission was graciously extended.

    “And I’m proud to be an American, where at least I know I’m free …”

    Read More
    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    You’re all for freedom, but you want to impose your views on Summer Time on me.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    Indiana should be a triplet with Ohio and Illinois, thanks to latitude, but those two states have populations tilted heavily toward their northern borders. (And Canada's, as well. Are their schools better?)

    Indiana is less populous in the northern counties, and way more so in the south than is Illinois. Thus, it makes more sense for more Hoosiers to object to DST.

    Population center of Illinois shifts to Grundy County field [2010 Census]

    Population centroids of US states [2000 Census]
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  143. LondonBob says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Right. Standard time is very hard on after school practice if you don't have expensive lights.

    At my boarding school games were moved to after lunch and the afternoon classes moved to early evening in the depths of winter.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  144. @anon
    "As a working man I understand the implicitly human advantages of the imperial system of measurements. And inch an be thought of as a unit. One thirty second of that inch has an exact, precise definition. If tolerances call for thirty seconds of an inch, there is an exact and precise way to measure them. 1inch/ (2^5) is precisely equal to one thirty second of an inch. Divide it in half five times. There is definitely merit to the metric system. I’m the lab it’s nice to be able to deal in the abstract. But on the job site you must deal in preciseness."

    This is not meant to criticize your way of thinking about measurements; I'm just genuinely curious why and how people find the imperial system easier to deal with. Even while doing carpentry (as an amateur), I find the imperial system infuriating to deal with.

    I once asked, as a lark, a bunch of employees in a (US) supermarket how many ounces were in a gallon of milk. None had any idea. You could say, well, they work in a supermarket, they're not very bright. How many of the bright people here could answer on the spot, without looking it up or thinking a bit about it ("well, there are 16 oz. in a pint (or is it 20??), there are 2 pints in a quart...").
    How many could instantly answer the question about how many ml in 2 liters?

    “As a working man I understand the implicitly human advantages of the imperial system of measurements. And inch an be thought of as a unit. One thirty second of that inch has an exact, precise definition. If tolerances call for thirty seconds of an inch, there is an exact and precise way to measure them. 1inch/ (2^5) is precisely equal to one thirty second of an inch. Divide it in half five times. There is definitely merit to the metric system. I’m the lab it’s nice to be able to deal in the abstract. But on the job site you must deal in preciseness.”

    This is not meant to criticize your way of thinking about measurements …

    I, on the other hand, will be more than happy to criticize — nay, ridicule — the “working man’s” idiotic way of … thinking (???) … about measurements. Yes, inches can be subdivided continuously into infinitesimally small bits. As can meters. Unless it turns out that space is quantized.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  145. Also OT:

    The Miami Herald this weekend ran a hand-wringing article on the unbearable whiteness of the University of Florida:

    https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/education/article217735350.html

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  146. sabril says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    I think this whole discussion, along with the switching of the clocks back and forth, is completely unneessary. In addition it shows that a bit of the statist mindset has crept into most people that discuss this issue.

    You are not gaining or losing any daylight - we all know that, I hope. Why should the government be let to run your life like this, getting you running around the house switching the clocks? It's a lot more trouble than that (as a computer-type in the comments already wrote) for software, airline scheduling, payroll departments, etc.

    If people in Seattle, let's say, want to have more daylight in the morning in winter for the safety of the school kids, then they can change the school schedule whatever date they want and switch it back whatever date they want. If I run a softball league, I can make the games start earlier in the late fall. You don't have to go switching the "official" time - just change your schedules to suit the sun and the needs of your students, employees, or softball players.

    What is so bad about letting people make their own decisions about when to get up? No, it seems to be all "the government needs to ..." and "the government shouldn't do ..." Don't let the government live rent-free in your heads, people. They already steal 2 to 4 hours of the fruits of your daily labor, whether it's daylight or standard time.

    I think the answer to your question is that there is a collective action problem at work, at least in theory.

    So, for example, schools might see it as positive to open an hour later on winter mornings, but they can’t do it because too many parents have coordinated their work schedules around bringing their children to school. Meanwhile, the employers for whom these parents work might also like to open an hour later during winter months but they can’t do it because too many of their workers have coordinated their schedules around their children’s school. There are so many inter-dependencies that it may be impossible to coordinate a big change even if almost everyone would be better off. So that’s the point of the government changing the clock by an hour — at least in theory, it solves the coordination problem.

    In fact in general, one can think of government as a way of solving these sorts of coordination problems. Whether we are better off with government dictates in specific situations, of course, is always open for debate. Because effective government requires concentration of power and compulsion so it is vulnerable to abuse, corruption, mismanagement, etc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    That's a pretty fair argument, Sabril. I do still think people, business, and schools would handle this just fine themselves. Just regarding the schools, they should have no business telling the parents when to send the kids. The parent's PTA/PTO should be deciding this and telling the school board - "Open up at 8:30. No, no excuses, we pay all of your salaries - just do it!".
    , @European-American
    Thank you for making an excellent argument for daylight savings time (and for the existence of government!). I have to admit it's a good, rational rejoinder to a simplistic slogan like "keep the government out of our clocks!".

    I still don't like it, but I now see how daylight savings time is a clever solution to the collective action problem of letting everyone's schedule track the sun a little better.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  147. MBlanc46 says:
    @Adrian E.
    The evidence that daylight saving time really saves energy is very weak. See, for instance, https://www.livescience.com/56725-does-daylight-saving-time-save-energy.html

    Claims that dailight saving time saves about 1% of energy are based on simplistic methods. In fact, it is not known whether it saves any energy at all. A study based on a natural experiment found that daylight saving time actually increases energy demand: http://www.nber.org/papers/w14429

    I think one of the characteristics of Americans that often surprises Europeans is how gullible and credulous Americans are. Technocrats and lobbyists just have to claim that something is „optimized“ and most Americans will believe it. It was also very easy to make a majority of the American public believe in the stories about WMD in Iraq, countless examples could be found.

    In Europe, people are much more informed that the actual evidence for the claim that dailight saving time saves energy is very weak. That often came up in discussions of the topic. A further difference might be that European technocrats probably are somewhat less detached from science that the American ones and therefore did not go on with claims based on bogus pseudo-scientific methodology claiming dailight saving time is „optimized“ for saving energy.

    Who gives a bleep about saving energy? Here on the Eastern edge of the Central Time Zone, an extra hour of daylight in the evening is one of the few mercies that we get from the seasons. I don’t care what you do where you live, but keep your mitts off our Summer Time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JSM
    But, you don't GET "an extra hour of daylight in the evenings."

    ALL that is happening is, DST forces you to get up an hour earlier after sunrise, than you prob would otherwise. So, since you got UP an hour earlier, you start work an hour earlier, so your work ends an hour earlier, and your time of night time sleep onset comes an hour earlier, than it would if we stayed on Standard Time.

    You've merely shifted your waking hours to earlier in the 24-hour day. Which is fine; you can do that, if you'd like, without the "help" of DST. But what right do you have to force ME to?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  148. MBlanc46 says:
    @Reactionary Utopian

    I think this whole discussion, along with the switching of the clocks back and forth, is completely unneessary. In addition it shows that a bit of the statist mindset has crept into most people that discuss this issue.

    You are not gaining or losing any daylight – we all know that, I hope. Why should the government be let to run your life like this, getting you running around the house switching the clocks? It’s a lot more trouble than that (as a computer-type in the comments already wrote) for software, airline scheduling, payroll departments, etc.

    If people in Seattle, let’s say, want to have more daylight in the morning in winter for the safety of the school kids, then they can change the school schedule whatever date they want and switch it back whatever date they want. If I run a softball league, I can make the games start earlier in the late fall. You don’t have to go switching the “official” time – just change your schedules to suit the sun and the needs of your students, employees, or softball players.

    What is so bad about letting people make their own decisions about when to get up? No, it seems to be all “the government needs to …” and “the government shouldn’t do …” Don’t let the government live rent-free in your heads, people. They already steal 2 to 4 hours of the fruits of your daily labor, whether it’s daylight or standard time.
     
    That's exactly right. I live in Indiana, which until ten years or so ago was the "other" state that observed EST year-'round. Then Bitch Daniels, who is surely the ultimate Chamber-of-Commerce Republican, got elected governor, twisted the state legislature's arms, and -- voila! -- instant EDT. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Yes, the golfers want to play after work. Fine: if they can convince their employers, change their work schedule accordingly during the summer. But, oh, no, that's not good enough -- everybody has to change schedules, in effect, for the benefit of the politically-connected.

    And the process of changing showed what a centrally-controlled shithole we're living in. Just because the state legislature passed a bill changing to EDT, and the governor signed it, did that make it happen? Don't make me laugh. All that did was to send a humble request to the Department of Commerce in Mordor, DC, begging to be allowed to change to EDT. And, in due course, having weighed all the imponderables, imperial permission was graciously extended.

    "And I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free ..."

    You’re all for freedom, but you want to impose your views on Summer Time on me.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  149. @The Alarmist

    "Making all of society live on pretend time six months of the year is the more complex and stupid solution, so that is what we do."
     
    Not only that, but we make sure the US changes its clocks a few weeks different from the others to point out that the rest of the world is out of step with all that is sweetness and light, greatness and good ... exceptional!

    Not only that, but we make sure the US changes its clocks a few weeks different from the others to point out that the rest of the world is out of step with all that is sweetness and light, greatness and good … exceptional!

    We are at a different latitude than is Europe. Both continents make the change at a time they deem appropriate. As does Japan. (Most of the Canadian population hugs the US border; few live at the European latitudes.)

    This does create a “wacky week” or two in the spring and fall, where transoceanic airline ETDs and ETAs are thrown off.

    Hawaii doesn’t participate because it’s pointless at their latitude. Alaska has reason to do it on their own time, but evidently would rather not bother.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  150. Jack D says:
    @res
    Sounds sensible. Your point about "pitch darkness" is worthwhile. Twilight is important. I wonder if there has ever been research about auto accident rates (per mile traveled) during day, night, and the various phases of twilight.

    Here is detailed sun information for Philadelphia if anyone is interested: https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/philadelphia
    Philly is almost at the center of its time zone as seen by looking at solar noon/midnight.

    In China, the whole country is on Beijing time, so in the far western regions in the winter the sun does not rise until almost 10AM. However, many places there shift their winter working hours so the work day starts later.
     
    Do you (or any Chinese here) have any thoughts about how that works in comparison to time zones? It looks like Beijing stopped using DST in 1991.

    Actually Philly is not at the center but close to the eastern edge of the Eastern Time Zone, which runs thru the meridian at 75 degrees west (NY is even closer). The actual time zone borders are manipulated to follow political borders, etc. but the basis pattern is that there is a new time zone every 15 degrees (x24 =360). Zero degrees runs thru Greenwich, England which is not the MIDDLE of its time zone but the eastern edge of it and so on for every time zone, so the people at the western edge of a zone live in a sort of permanent daylight savings time.

    Terre Haute, Indiana is at the far western edge of the eastern time zone and on some days during daylight savings solar noon does not occur until almost 2PM (with sunrise and sunset also shifted).

    Read More
    • Replies: @res

    Actually Philly is not at the center but close to the eastern edge of the Eastern Time Zone, which runs thru the meridian at 75 degrees west (NY is even closer). The actual time zone borders are manipulated to follow political borders, etc. but the basis pattern is that there is a new time zone every 15 degrees (x24 =360). Zero degrees runs thru Greenwich, England which is not the MIDDLE of its time zone but the eastern edge of it and so on for every time zone,
     
    Perhaps it would be more accurate (and/or clear) to say that Philly is very close to the "0 point" of the Eastern time zone (i.e. clock noon = solar noon). Which makes sense given the longitude: 75.1652° W

    Looking at this time zone map I think it is fair to say Philly is closer to the center than the far right of the Eastern time zone. The eastern boundary is not the Atlantic coast by you. Though you are right to observe that political boundaries push the western boundary further west.

    http://ontheworldmap.com/north-america/north-america-time-zone-map-max.jpg

    You can also see that Greenwich is at the center of its nominal time zone, but the European political boundaries make a dramatic difference in that region.

    https://www.mapsofworld.com/europe/maps/Europe-Time-Zone-Map.jpg

    Not sure why that one failed. Let's try another. (second attempt both worked, but leaving in in case the first one breaks again)

    https://pl.maps-romania.com/img/1200/strefy-rumunii-czas-mapie.jpg

    To be clear, the 15 degree intervals are in fact the centers of the nominal time zones.

    P.S. Good observation about Terra Haute, IN. It is at 87.4139° W longitude so a third of the way past the 75/90 halfway point. So roughly speaking a 30 minute skew for being at the halfway point plus another 20 minutes for being a third past it.

    , @ScarletNumber
    This is incorrect. The theoretical center of each time zone is a line of longitude that is a multiple of 15°. From there adjustments are made for commercial and political reasons.

    Yankee Stadium is at 73°56' W, so by your standard NYC would be in the western edge of UTC -4, rather than being in the middle of UTC -5, which it actually is.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  151. @Reactionary Utopian

    I think this whole discussion, along with the switching of the clocks back and forth, is completely unneessary. In addition it shows that a bit of the statist mindset has crept into most people that discuss this issue.

    You are not gaining or losing any daylight – we all know that, I hope. Why should the government be let to run your life like this, getting you running around the house switching the clocks? It’s a lot more trouble than that (as a computer-type in the comments already wrote) for software, airline scheduling, payroll departments, etc.

    If people in Seattle, let’s say, want to have more daylight in the morning in winter for the safety of the school kids, then they can change the school schedule whatever date they want and switch it back whatever date they want. If I run a softball league, I can make the games start earlier in the late fall. You don’t have to go switching the “official” time – just change your schedules to suit the sun and the needs of your students, employees, or softball players.

    What is so bad about letting people make their own decisions about when to get up? No, it seems to be all “the government needs to …” and “the government shouldn’t do …” Don’t let the government live rent-free in your heads, people. They already steal 2 to 4 hours of the fruits of your daily labor, whether it’s daylight or standard time.
     
    That's exactly right. I live in Indiana, which until ten years or so ago was the "other" state that observed EST year-'round. Then Bitch Daniels, who is surely the ultimate Chamber-of-Commerce Republican, got elected governor, twisted the state legislature's arms, and -- voila! -- instant EDT. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Yes, the golfers want to play after work. Fine: if they can convince their employers, change their work schedule accordingly during the summer. But, oh, no, that's not good enough -- everybody has to change schedules, in effect, for the benefit of the politically-connected.

    And the process of changing showed what a centrally-controlled shithole we're living in. Just because the state legislature passed a bill changing to EDT, and the governor signed it, did that make it happen? Don't make me laugh. All that did was to send a humble request to the Department of Commerce in Mordor, DC, begging to be allowed to change to EDT. And, in due course, having weighed all the imponderables, imperial permission was graciously extended.

    "And I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free ..."

    Indiana should be a triplet with Ohio and Illinois, thanks to latitude, but those two states have populations tilted heavily toward their northern borders. (And Canada’s, as well. Are their schools better?)

    Indiana is less populous in the northern counties, and way more so in the south than is Illinois. Thus, it makes more sense for more Hoosiers to object to DST.

    Population center of Illinois shifts to Grundy County field [2010 Census]

    Population centroids of US states [2000 Census]

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  152. @PNWmossback
    More than you ever wanted to know about DST:

    http://www.webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/index.html

    Local communities used to set clocks based on Local Solar Noon. Faster transportation and near-instantaneous communications rendered that unworkable, unbfortunately. We became slaves to the clock and a more hectic pace of life. Could current technologies allow us to return to the Good Old Days? A GPS watch could correct itself based on your position on the planet. And your computter could compensate for the oddities created in transportation schedules. It would also be a full-employment program for geeks, and an economic benefit.

    Or, perhaps we could eventually elimonate the tilt in the planetary axis, eliminating seasonal sunlight variations. That couldn't have any unintended consequences...

    There’s always Saudi Arabia. They set the clock anew every day!

    I want to go to Newfoundland, if only to set my watch ahead half-an-hour. (And to do it at Dildo.)

    There is a time zone, in the Southern Hemisphere I think, that is 15 minutes off its neighbor.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  153. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:

    “Why not abolish time altogether?”

    Funny that you should mention that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_hypothesis

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  154. Pericles says:
    @Bugg
    One odd thing; Newfoundland not only doesn't do DST they are a half hour ahead of the rest of the eastern time zone. So over the summer they're 90 minutes ahead of NY and Boston, but only a half hour ahead after the fall back. Any Canadians have any insight into this?

    As any programmer who has encountered tz knows, time zones are oddities.

    “Most of the time zones on land are offset from Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) by a whole number of hours (UTC−12 to UTC+14), but a few zones are offset by 30 or 45 minutes (e.g. Newfoundland Standard Time is UTC−03:30, Nepal Standard Time is UTC+05:45, and Indian Standard Time is UTC+05:30).”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_zone

    Geographically speaking, they need not correspond to longitudes or anything like that either.

    (The URL looks a bit dodgy, so I’ll add the caption that it’s a map of the geographical extent of time zones.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    And it's the same time everywhere in China even though the country spans 9 15 degrees arc of longitude.

    I had the task of adding time zone support to our application several years ago and now know more about time zones than is necessary.

    The Olson time zone database (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tz_database) was started in the 1970s by a guy named Arthur David Olson who worked at NIH. It is now the tz database and is maintained by one guy under the auspices of ICANN. It is the data that used everywhere, and I mean everywhere, in computer systems and languages.

    The low v0lume mailing list has at least one email a month saying something like, "How come is not the name in ", and it is politely explained that the largest city in is used and no, we are not changing it.

    Then there are the politicians who decide to change DST or even their time zone in the next 10 days, not realizing that the major vendors of computers and phones need several months of lead time to get the new data out. So the people all wake up one morning and the time is wrong.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  155. Pericles says:
    @PNWmossback
    More than you ever wanted to know about DST:

    http://www.webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/index.html

    Local communities used to set clocks based on Local Solar Noon. Faster transportation and near-instantaneous communications rendered that unworkable, unbfortunately. We became slaves to the clock and a more hectic pace of life. Could current technologies allow us to return to the Good Old Days? A GPS watch could correct itself based on your position on the planet. And your computter could compensate for the oddities created in transportation schedules. It would also be a full-employment program for geeks, and an economic benefit.

    Or, perhaps we could eventually elimonate the tilt in the planetary axis, eliminating seasonal sunlight variations. That couldn't have any unintended consequences...

    My smartphone seems to quietly set the correct time zone when I travel. Not to mention handling DST, of course.

    I seem to recall a watch denominated in ‘beats’, a system that was proposed in the 90s. Each beat was something like a second or a few seconds, and you could then conveniently say to your world-skipping friends ‘let’s have lunch at beat 600′. No time zones there, which was the selling point.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  156. @Steve Sailer
    Why sleep through all that nice sunshine in summer?

    Currently, standard time is only about 4.5 months long, so year round DST would make more sense than year round Standard Time. But November through February would be hard on schoolkids if it were DST.

    But November through February would be hard on schoolkids if it were DST.

    Who cares? They don’t vote, work. or care about anything other than whatever and we can beat them up if they complain about it.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  157. utu says:
    @Dtbb
    Was watching world cup, I forget from which city, but time difference was six hours and i noticed in background shots it was getting dark at 930 their time. It made no sense to me because of their latitude. I searched the city's sunrise time and it eas 330 am. Who wants that? Do farmers and construction workers just ignore the clock? I like the current system here and love 7 to 330 construction hours because I beat the traffic both ways. Any request to work later and I insist on being paid til 6 pm no matter when I finish. Makes no sense to sit in traffic to me.

    Who wants that? Do farmers and construction workers just ignore the clock?

    Do farmers and construction worker need government to tell them what time it is? Apparently you and Sailer do.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Do farmers and construction worker need government to tell them what time it is?

    It's actually a pretty useful role for government to say: "Okay, everybody, we know there are a lot of different opinions about what time it ought to be, but here's what time it is officially. So if a judge orders you to show up in court at 9 am tomorrow, we strongly suggest you turn up at 9 am official time, not 9 am your personal time."

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  158. @utu

    Who wants that? Do farmers and construction workers just ignore the clock?
     
    Do farmers and construction worker need government to tell them what time it is? Apparently you and Sailer do.

    Do farmers and construction worker need government to tell them what time it is?

    It’s actually a pretty useful role for government to say: “Okay, everybody, we know there are a lot of different opinions about what time it ought to be, but here’s what time it is officially. So if a judge orders you to show up in court at 9 am tomorrow, we strongly suggest you turn up at 9 am official time, not 9 am your personal time.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @JSM
    Sure.

    But, what you're saying misses the point.

    The whole POINT to DST is to force people to get up sooner after sunrise than they would if people left the clocks the hell alone.

    A farmer who wants to get up an hour after sunrise, gets up an hour after sunrise, regardless whether the clock, DST, says 6 am or, as it would if we left the clocks on Standard Time, 5 am.

    For those of us who don't CARE about when sunrise is, but we have to see the Judge at 9 am, it's just a tyranny on us to FORCE us to get up earlier because the clock "says" it's 9 am because we're on DST, when it could just as easily say it's 8 am cuz we stayed on Standard Time and we get to sleep for another hour and show up at 9 am Standard Time.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  159. JSM says:
    @Kyle
    How about people who work outside? I work outside. And I will absolutely advocate for “muh job!!!!!”

    All of you anti DST people, your trying to “took errhh jobs!!!”

    DST drives me NUTS. It’s as if people think that moving clock hands changes what the sun does. It doesn’t! The sun rises when it rises. It sets when it sets. What time the clock “says” it is doesn’t change that. It only changes when people get up and go to bed in relation to sunrise/sunset.

    So, you people who *care* about how much daylight there is when you start work, those of you who care about when the sun comes up “according to the clock,” why can’t YOU simply change the stated hours you work?

    IOW, If you want to start, in summer, one and a half or two hours after sunrise, then do it. Your clock would say 6 am, instead of 7 am, but the actual reality is the same; you’re starting work one and a half or two hours after sunrise.

    But why force ME to do it? My work makes me arrive when “the clock” says 8, regardless of how long it’s been since sunrise. I don’t care if the sun’s been up for an hour, or three. It makes no difference to my work. Yet you guys who care about daylight and so want to rise early, FORCE me to show up earlier than I would otherwise.
    This is tyranny.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein

    But why force ME to do it? My work makes me arrive when “the clock” says 8, regardless of how long it’s been since sunrise. I don’t care if the sun’s been up for an hour, or three. It makes no difference to my work. Yet you guys who care about daylight and so want to rise early, FORCE me to show up earlier than I would otherwise.
    This is tyranny.
     
    Oh, the humanity.

    Are you really not getting this? Perhaps you have a flexible schedule, but there are many millions of people who do not. They are not at liberty to simply decree when they're going to show up for work. Their schedule is pegged to the schedules of their coworkers, and the schedule of the whole company is pegged to the schedule of its business partners. Everybody needs to be on the same page, which is why we use clocks in the first place. Your libertarian approach to start times would literally blow up the economy. Nothing would get done on a reliable basis, and it would be like living in Nicaragua.

    Now, whether we should actually have DST or not is a separate issue, but whatever we have, it has to be the same for everyone. Telling people they can just show up an hour late for work if they feel like it is a nonstarter.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  160. JSM says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Do farmers and construction worker need government to tell them what time it is?

    It's actually a pretty useful role for government to say: "Okay, everybody, we know there are a lot of different opinions about what time it ought to be, but here's what time it is officially. So if a judge orders you to show up in court at 9 am tomorrow, we strongly suggest you turn up at 9 am official time, not 9 am your personal time."

    Sure.

    But, what you’re saying misses the point.

    The whole POINT to DST is to force people to get up sooner after sunrise than they would if people left the clocks the hell alone.

    A farmer who wants to get up an hour after sunrise, gets up an hour after sunrise, regardless whether the clock, DST, says 6 am or, as it would if we left the clocks on Standard Time, 5 am.

    For those of us who don’t CARE about when sunrise is, but we have to see the Judge at 9 am, it’s just a tyranny on us to FORCE us to get up earlier because the clock “says” it’s 9 am because we’re on DST, when it could just as easily say it’s 8 am cuz we stayed on Standard Time and we get to sleep for another hour and show up at 9 am Standard Time.

    Read More
    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Anon87
    That sounds like a Kramer subplot of a Seinfeld episode.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  161. JSM says:
    @MBlanc46
    Who gives a bleep about saving energy? Here on the Eastern edge of the Central Time Zone, an extra hour of daylight in the evening is one of the few mercies that we get from the seasons. I don’t care what you do where you live, but keep your mitts off our Summer Time.

    But, you don’t GET “an extra hour of daylight in the evenings.”

    ALL that is happening is, DST forces you to get up an hour earlier after sunrise, than you prob would otherwise. So, since you got UP an hour earlier, you start work an hour earlier, so your work ends an hour earlier, and your time of night time sleep onset comes an hour earlier, than it would if we stayed on Standard Time.

    You’ve merely shifted your waking hours to earlier in the 24-hour day. Which is fine; you can do that, if you’d like, without the “help” of DST. But what right do you have to force ME to?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    You get an extra hour of effective daylight.

    Daylight in the morning when you're getting ready for work or school, commuting, etc., is wasted daylight. You're unable to enjoy it or use it for recreation.

    Even if you were able to physically enjoy the morning daylight before work or school, you wouldn't be able to enjoy it psychologically, as you'd be dreading the soon to commence school day or workday. Utility is psychological. It's kind of like Sunday evenings. You simply never enjoy a Sunday evening like you do Friday and Saturday evenings because of the psychological dread of the following Monday morning and work week.
    , @MBlanc46
    We all get that. We get the daylight at the clock tine that we want it.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  162. Anon87 says:
    @JSM
    Sure.

    But, what you're saying misses the point.

    The whole POINT to DST is to force people to get up sooner after sunrise than they would if people left the clocks the hell alone.

    A farmer who wants to get up an hour after sunrise, gets up an hour after sunrise, regardless whether the clock, DST, says 6 am or, as it would if we left the clocks on Standard Time, 5 am.

    For those of us who don't CARE about when sunrise is, but we have to see the Judge at 9 am, it's just a tyranny on us to FORCE us to get up earlier because the clock "says" it's 9 am because we're on DST, when it could just as easily say it's 8 am cuz we stayed on Standard Time and we get to sleep for another hour and show up at 9 am Standard Time.

    That sounds like a Kramer subplot of a Seinfeld episode.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    No, it wasn't the AM/PM, mon! (It turned out, it was the wake-up service, who was sleeping with Elaine, as I think I recall.)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  163. @JSM
    DST drives me NUTS. It's as if people think that moving clock hands changes what the sun does. It doesn't! The sun rises when it rises. It sets when it sets. What time the clock "says" it is doesn't change that. It only changes when people get up and go to bed in relation to sunrise/sunset.

    So, you people who *care* about how much daylight there is when you start work, those of you who care about when the sun comes up "according to the clock," why can't YOU simply change the stated hours you work?

    IOW, If you want to start, in summer, one and a half or two hours after sunrise, then do it. Your clock would say 6 am, instead of 7 am, but the actual reality is the same; you're starting work one and a half or two hours after sunrise.

    But why force ME to do it? My work makes me arrive when "the clock" says 8, regardless of how long it's been since sunrise. I don't care if the sun's been up for an hour, or three. It makes no difference to my work. Yet you guys who care about daylight and so want to rise early, FORCE me to show up earlier than I would otherwise.
    This is tyranny.

    But why force ME to do it? My work makes me arrive when “the clock” says 8, regardless of how long it’s been since sunrise. I don’t care if the sun’s been up for an hour, or three. It makes no difference to my work. Yet you guys who care about daylight and so want to rise early, FORCE me to show up earlier than I would otherwise.
    This is tyranny.

    Oh, the humanity.

    Are you really not getting this? Perhaps you have a flexible schedule, but there are many millions of people who do not. They are not at liberty to simply decree when they’re going to show up for work. Their schedule is pegged to the schedules of their coworkers, and the schedule of the whole company is pegged to the schedule of its business partners. Everybody needs to be on the same page, which is why we use clocks in the first place. Your libertarian approach to start times would literally blow up the economy. Nothing would get done on a reliable basis, and it would be like living in Nicaragua.

    Now, whether we should actually have DST or not is a separate issue, but whatever we have, it has to be the same for everyone. Telling people they can just show up an hour late for work if they feel like it is a nonstarter.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JSM
    I'll try again.

    First let me explain something: The clock on Standard Time shows 12 noon when the sun is directly overhead, crossing the meridian. Consequently, the clock matches the sun.

    DST simply pushes the clock ahead so it "says" 1 pm when the sun is crossing the meridian (i.e., the sun says it's noon.) Likewise, when the DST clock "says" it's 5 pm and you get off work, in reality according with the sun it's actually 4 pm (4 hrs. post the sun's crossing the meridian). Likewise, when DST clock "says" it's 10 pm bedtime, in actuality with the sun, it's 9 pm (nine hours since the sun crossed the meridian). Likewise DST clock "says" it's 6 am when the sun is rising (even though if we'd left things on Standard Time reality in accordance with the sun, the clock would say 5 am.)

    So, the clock "says" it's 6 am, time to get up, so you get up -- even though it's actually 5 am. It's not really 6 am. If it were really 6 am, it would be 6 hours til meridian. But it's not, it's seven hours. The time is *actually* 5 am.

    You've simply been forced to do everything an hour earlier.

    So, anyone who thinks DST "gives them an extra hour of daylight," no. There's no such thing. The sun shines when it shines. How long after sunrise you would get up, if we always stayed on Standard Time, would depend on what you do.

    But DST FORCES people, who would have no reason to get up early just because the sun rises early, to get out of bed anyway.


    I'm not saying we should not all have clocks showing the same time. I'm saying, stop the DST.

    It is no strain on the farmer who gets up with the sun in summer for his clock to say 4 am (as the sun says) as opposed to 5 am (where his clock's been pushed ahead one hour for DST). He gets up with the sun. What the clock "says" is irrelevant to what he has to do.

    But for those of us whose employer says "be here at 8," we're actually being forced to be there at 7, according to the sun. And that most certainly is a strain for DST to be imposed upon us -- for no ACTUAL gain to society.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  164. @Anon
    Or time.gov or any of the apps that build a front end to it.

    Yes, good point.

    I’m nostalgic. Nothing beats tuning your shortwave radio when you’re a kid and listening to things coming in through the fuzz from all over the world, bouncing off the ionosphere.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  165. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon
    "As a working man I understand the implicitly human advantages of the imperial system of measurements. And inch an be thought of as a unit. One thirty second of that inch has an exact, precise definition. If tolerances call for thirty seconds of an inch, there is an exact and precise way to measure them. 1inch/ (2^5) is precisely equal to one thirty second of an inch. Divide it in half five times. There is definitely merit to the metric system. I’m the lab it’s nice to be able to deal in the abstract. But on the job site you must deal in preciseness."

    This is not meant to criticize your way of thinking about measurements; I'm just genuinely curious why and how people find the imperial system easier to deal with. Even while doing carpentry (as an amateur), I find the imperial system infuriating to deal with.

    I once asked, as a lark, a bunch of employees in a (US) supermarket how many ounces were in a gallon of milk. None had any idea. You could say, well, they work in a supermarket, they're not very bright. How many of the bright people here could answer on the spot, without looking it up or thinking a bit about it ("well, there are 16 oz. in a pint (or is it 20??), there are 2 pints in a quart...").
    How many could instantly answer the question about how many ml in 2 liters?

    In the US, people typically don’t order “pints” as the customary single serving in bars. You order just a specific beer e.g. “1 Heineken”, and it’s served in the bottle or in a glass if it’s on tap. A bottle of beer is 12 ounces, which is a cup and a half. When it’s served in a glass, the glass is typically 16 ounces, which is 2 cups, although the size of the glass can vary by venue. 16 ounces is an American pint. Because it’s not customary for people to order and be served pints of beer in bars in the US, Americans generally don’t have a general, immediate sense and grasp of what a pint is.

    Whereas in the UK, pints are the standard serving in pubs and thus everyone has a sense for what a pint is. The UK pint is a bit more than 2 cups.

    What Americans do have a sense of are cups. Cups are very intuitive because everyone drinks cups of things everyday. Everyone knows roughly what a cup is, can visualize it easily, etc. Everyone has cups of water, cups of coffee, etc. So it’s a good intuitive unit. A gallon is 4 quarts, which is easy to remember because quart implies 4 or fourths of something. A quart is 4 cups, which again is easy to remember because the name suggests 4. And everyone knows what 4 cups are. People might not know or remember that a cup has 8 ounces, but that’s fine because people often don’t speak of ounces but rather in terms of fractions of cups i.e. half a cup, quarter cup, etc., which everyone has a sense of.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Are pints still used in the UK or did they switch to a metric equivalent? Can I go to a store in London and buy a pint bottle of beer or will it be something like 0.5 liters?
    , @JMcG
    A pint weighs a pound, all the world round.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  166. @Dave Pinsen
    Let them start work later.

    For hospitals, or businesses that require workers 24/7, some will have to commute in the dark, just as some commute in the middle of the night now. But do most people really need to be at the office by 8 or 9, or is it just a convention? Let them come to work an hour or two later, and let them work from home more often, if remote work is feasible for their job.

    Really, given the high percentage of bullsh*t jobs, would if more people came in later or worked staggered start times?

    I once had a job as an inside sales rep covering Northern California from the East Coast. My start time was 11am, but I got in around 11:20am most days because no one really looks out for who's coming in at 11. It was a nice commute.

    Dave Pinsen wrote to me:

    Let them start work later.

    It’s just a classic “coordination problem”: as a practical matter, which is the easier way to coordinate things — everyone alters their clocks or everyone alters the nominal time when they go to work?

    Dave Pinsen also wrote:

    Really, given the high percentage of bullsh*t jobs, would if more people came in later or worked staggered start times?

    Even better, let’s set all their clocks to the PM so they never get out of bed!

    Seriously, I concur in recommending the Graeber book you link to: Graeber is one of the increasing number of leftists who actually make sense as the liberal Establishment is imploding. I also recommend his The Utopia of Rules.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen

    Even better, let’s set all their clocks to the PM so they never get out of bed!
     
    Works for me.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  167. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @JSM
    But, you don't GET "an extra hour of daylight in the evenings."

    ALL that is happening is, DST forces you to get up an hour earlier after sunrise, than you prob would otherwise. So, since you got UP an hour earlier, you start work an hour earlier, so your work ends an hour earlier, and your time of night time sleep onset comes an hour earlier, than it would if we stayed on Standard Time.

    You've merely shifted your waking hours to earlier in the 24-hour day. Which is fine; you can do that, if you'd like, without the "help" of DST. But what right do you have to force ME to?

    You get an extra hour of effective daylight.

    Daylight in the morning when you’re getting ready for work or school, commuting, etc., is wasted daylight. You’re unable to enjoy it or use it for recreation.

    Even if you were able to physically enjoy the morning daylight before work or school, you wouldn’t be able to enjoy it psychologically, as you’d be dreading the soon to commence school day or workday. Utility is psychological. It’s kind of like Sunday evenings. You simply never enjoy a Sunday evening like you do Friday and Saturday evenings because of the psychological dread of the following Monday morning and work week.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JSM
    No, none of that's true. For people who are "night owls" we don't *care* about daylight. DST was invented by an early riser who, while out for a walk one dawn, got his sense of moral superiority all offended by thinking about all us "lazy layabout night owls" still snoozing, and decided to FORCE us to get up by pushing the clock ahead an hour.

    https://www.timeanddate.com/time/dst/history.html
    Benjamin Franklin, the Father of DST?
    Many sources also credit Benjamin Franklin with being the first to suggest seasonal time change. However, the idea voiced by the American inventor and politician in 1784 can hardly be described as fundamental for the development of modern DST. After all, it did not even involve turning the clocks. In a letter to the editor of the Journal of Paris, which was entitled “An Economical Project for Diminishing the Cost of Light”, Franklin simply suggested that Parisians could economize candle usage by getting people out of bed earlier in the morning. What's more: Franklin meant it as a joke..

    Here's ol' Ben moralizing: All the difficulty will be in the first two or three days; after which the reformation will be as natural and easy as the present irregularity; for, ce n’est que le premier pas qui coûte. Oblige a man to rise at four in the morning, and it is more than probable he will go willingly to bed at eight in the evening; and, having had eight hours sleep, he will rise more willingly at four in the morning following. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/did-benjamin-franklin-invent-daylight-savings-time-1232015/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  168. @sabril
    I think the answer to your question is that there is a collective action problem at work, at least in theory.

    So, for example, schools might see it as positive to open an hour later on winter mornings, but they can't do it because too many parents have coordinated their work schedules around bringing their children to school. Meanwhile, the employers for whom these parents work might also like to open an hour later during winter months but they can't do it because too many of their workers have coordinated their schedules around their children's school. There are so many inter-dependencies that it may be impossible to coordinate a big change even if almost everyone would be better off. So that's the point of the government changing the clock by an hour -- at least in theory, it solves the coordination problem.

    In fact in general, one can think of government as a way of solving these sorts of coordination problems. Whether we are better off with government dictates in specific situations, of course, is always open for debate. Because effective government requires concentration of power and compulsion so it is vulnerable to abuse, corruption, mismanagement, etc.

    That’s a pretty fair argument, Sabril. I do still think people, business, and schools would handle this just fine themselves. Just regarding the schools, they should have no business telling the parents when to send the kids. The parent’s PTA/PTO should be deciding this and telling the school board – “Open up at 8:30. No, no excuses, we pay all of your salaries – just do it!”.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  169. @Anon87
    That sounds like a Kramer subplot of a Seinfeld episode.

    No, it wasn’t the AM/PM, mon! (It turned out, it was the wake-up service, who was sleeping with Elaine, as I think I recall.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon87
    From season 8. The Susie:

    JERRY and KRAMER are walking down the street at dusk.]

    KRAMER

    Look how dark it's gettin' already.

    JERRY

    Well, it's not Daylight Savings Time yet.

    KRAMER

    When does it start?

    JERRY

    [pause] I don't know, they just tell you the night before.

    KRAMER

    Uh. Well, I'm sick o' waiting. [pulls out his pocket-watch (it has a chain, too)]

    I am springin' ahead riiight now.

    JERRY

    [under breath] Oh, I'm sure that won't cause any problems..
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  170. @Buzz Mohawk
    Everybody jets to different time zones, so it really doesn't matter what time it is.

    If you want the most accurate time in the world, call WWV in Fort Collins, Colorado, ph.# 303-499-7111, or listen to it on short wave radio at 5, 10, 15 and 20 megahertz, as I did with my multi-band radio when I was a kid.

    The time is announced each minute as Coordinated Universal Time (Greenwich Mean Time).

    The clocks at WWV are calibrated with the atomic clocks at the National Bureau of Standards (now called NIST, which stands for something else) in Boulder. I've seen those clocks.

    This is just another thing that white men, Americans, do better than anybody else and have been for a long time now. It is the standard for the world.

    If you want the most accurate time in the world, call WWV in Fort Collins, Colorado,

    Or, better yet, look up ephemeris tables for Callisto or any of the 3 other Galilean moons of Jupiter (Io, Europa, and Ganymede), find out when the next transit, shadow transit, or occultation starts, then set your phone. That’s all you need, really, other than a clear night sky. Why don’t they make an app for that? Sure, you could set your phone to auto-update from GPS signals, but where’s the fun in that?

    Everybody jets to different time zones, so it really doesn’t matter what time it is.

    167 posts in and nobody has embedded this yet. For shame!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  171. @Adrian E.
    The evidence that daylight saving time really saves energy is very weak. See, for instance, https://www.livescience.com/56725-does-daylight-saving-time-save-energy.html

    Claims that dailight saving time saves about 1% of energy are based on simplistic methods. In fact, it is not known whether it saves any energy at all. A study based on a natural experiment found that daylight saving time actually increases energy demand: http://www.nber.org/papers/w14429

    I think one of the characteristics of Americans that often surprises Europeans is how gullible and credulous Americans are. Technocrats and lobbyists just have to claim that something is „optimized“ and most Americans will believe it. It was also very easy to make a majority of the American public believe in the stories about WMD in Iraq, countless examples could be found.

    In Europe, people are much more informed that the actual evidence for the claim that dailight saving time saves energy is very weak. That often came up in discussions of the topic. A further difference might be that European technocrats probably are somewhat less detached from science that the American ones and therefore did not go on with claims based on bogus pseudo-scientific methodology claiming dailight saving time is „optimized“ for saving energy.

    I think one of the characteristics of Americans that often surprises Europeans is how gullible and credulous Americans are. Technocrats and lobbyists just have to claim that something is „optimized“ and most Americans will believe it.

    LOL. Europeans are every bit as credulous. You’ve got to be kidding.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  172. @Anonymous
    In the US, people typically don't order "pints" as the customary single serving in bars. You order just a specific beer e.g. "1 Heineken", and it's served in the bottle or in a glass if it's on tap. A bottle of beer is 12 ounces, which is a cup and a half. When it's served in a glass, the glass is typically 16 ounces, which is 2 cups, although the size of the glass can vary by venue. 16 ounces is an American pint. Because it's not customary for people to order and be served pints of beer in bars in the US, Americans generally don't have a general, immediate sense and grasp of what a pint is.

    Whereas in the UK, pints are the standard serving in pubs and thus everyone has a sense for what a pint is. The UK pint is a bit more than 2 cups.

    What Americans do have a sense of are cups. Cups are very intuitive because everyone drinks cups of things everyday. Everyone knows roughly what a cup is, can visualize it easily, etc. Everyone has cups of water, cups of coffee, etc. So it's a good intuitive unit. A gallon is 4 quarts, which is easy to remember because quart implies 4 or fourths of something. A quart is 4 cups, which again is easy to remember because the name suggests 4. And everyone knows what 4 cups are. People might not know or remember that a cup has 8 ounces, but that's fine because people often don't speak of ounces but rather in terms of fractions of cups i.e. half a cup, quarter cup, etc., which everyone has a sense of.

    Are pints still used in the UK or did they switch to a metric equivalent? Can I go to a store in London and buy a pint bottle of beer or will it be something like 0.5 liters?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    They still use pints for draft beers in pubs.

    In stores beer is packaged in milliliters.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  173. Dtbb says:
    @dearieme
    Foursome or four ball?

    P.S. I'd have been chucked off my boyhood course if I'd taken four hours. Even the Ladies didn't take four hours. And we were our own caddies of course - boys carrying their own bags, adults usually pulling trolleys.

    How come none of you fast golfers are in florida during the winter? 6 hour rounds with a cart are the norm.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  174. @O'Really
    How can you say the schedule is optimized when it is asymmetric around the winter solstice?

    It makes no sense that standard time lasts for only 7 weeks before the solstice, but 9 weeks after.

    How can you say the schedule is optimized when it is asymmetric around the winter solstice?

    It makes no sense that standard time lasts for only 7 weeks before the solstice, but 9 weeks after.

    The nine weeks after are colder than the seven weeks before. Extra sunlight in the morning helps melt a bit of ice before rush hour.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  175. @anon

    Why not stay on daylight time, but have the kids start school an hour or two later?
     
    Because that is the simple and obvious solution. Making all of society live on pretend time six months of the year is the more complex and stupid solution, so that is what we do.

    Because that is the simple and obvious solution. Making all of society live on pretend time six months of the year is the more complex and stupid solution, so that is what we do.

    Almost all of us live on pretend time the whole year round because of time zones. In real time, noon in Amarillo and Dallas and Opelika is not simultaneous.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  176. 3g4me says:
    @Alec Leamas
    Mark me down as someone who values the sanctity of his circadian rhythms over a bit of perceived sunlight here or there. As others have written, periods of springing forward and falling back are associated with health risks and traffic accidents. Springing forward in particular causes me to be grumpy for quite some time before I fully adjust. Adjusting start times of activities affected by the degree of sunlight seems a more reasonable way to go about these things.

    It'd also save me the trouble of having the perennial arguments with morons who seem to believe that an Act of Congress can change the amount of sunlight that shines on a particular spot on the Earth.

    @88 Alec Leamas: “Mark me down as someone who values the sanctity of his circadian rhythms over a bit of perceived sunlight here or there . . . It’d also save me the trouble of having the perennial arguments with morons who seem to believe that an Act of Congress can change the amount of sunlight that shines on a particular spot on the Earth.”

    Hear, hear. I HATE Daylight Savings Time, resetting clocks, shifting sleep schedules, and artificially extending my least favorite season of the year. It’s already unseasonably hot here in the DFW area in October/November, and my kids used to risk heat stroke going trick-or-treating in costume. Now I’m supposed to get in the “holiday spirit” when it’s about 82 degrees and sunny until early evening? When am I supposed to get to wear snuggly sweaters? Drink warm mulled wine? Enjoy a crackly fire? Huh? At least if the evenings are dark it feels a little like autumn. And with the damned thing lasting from March through November, kids here still have to get up and go to school in the dark for the last 4-6 weeks.

    Stop the government messing with time and circadian rhythms in the name of false economy going back to socialist FDR.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  177. dr kill says:
    @ScarletNumber
    That's pretty dumb. The whole point of DST is so thousands of individual stakeholders don't have to decide when to start earlier. Everyone does it at once.

    For those of you who don't like DST, the sun would rise at 4:30 for most of the summer. The daylight would be wasted. Even if DST saves $1 in energy costs, it would be worth it due to the social benefits.

    People that can’t get out of bed hate early risers. Perhaps sissies , drunks and women could change the workday from 11 until 8 pm. Just do it and shut up. QED

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  178. @LondonBob
    Portugal and Russia have experimented with abolishing DST, in both cases it was a complete disaster and the experiment was quickly ended. Still it doesn't stop the odd obsessives and their hobby horse.

    I can normally tell when the clocks are about to change as I start naturally going to bed earlier, or later depending on the change. Clocks should fit around the seasonal changes and our body cycles.

    > Clocks should fit around the seasonal changes and our body cycles

    Exactly! So what is needed is to change the time gradually every month. Set your clock back by 5 minutes every month, on the first of the month at midnight, during the 6 months heading towards winter, and set your clock forward by 5 minutes every month in the 6 months leading up to summer.

    Of course, the adjustment should really be a factor of your latitude. In New York there is a 3-hour time difference between sunrises in the winter and summer. In Miami, the difference is only 1.5 hours. So ideally, to make sure that I can reliably set my clock to wake with the sun all year round, the time should be adjusted every month in New York by 15 minutes, and by only 7.5 minutes in Miami.

    There’s also the issue that the variation is not linear, so adjustments should be smaller in deepest winter and deepest summer. I’m not sure what the exact function is but astronomers can tell us.

    And of course a monthly adjustment is still too jarring for our body cycles, so ideally there would be an adjustment every day, so roughly 30 seconds per day in New York, and 15 seconds per day in Miami.

    This way when you want to schedule a call with someone in a location different from you, you just have to ask what their latitude is, and make the appropriate conversions.

    All our clocks will have to be replaced or manually adjusted on a daily basis, but of course most of us tell the time from mobile phones nowadays, so it’s just a software upgrade.

    http://astrosun2.astro.cornell.edu/academics/courses/astro201/sun_rise.htm

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  179. @sabril
    I think the answer to your question is that there is a collective action problem at work, at least in theory.

    So, for example, schools might see it as positive to open an hour later on winter mornings, but they can't do it because too many parents have coordinated their work schedules around bringing their children to school. Meanwhile, the employers for whom these parents work might also like to open an hour later during winter months but they can't do it because too many of their workers have coordinated their schedules around their children's school. There are so many inter-dependencies that it may be impossible to coordinate a big change even if almost everyone would be better off. So that's the point of the government changing the clock by an hour -- at least in theory, it solves the coordination problem.

    In fact in general, one can think of government as a way of solving these sorts of coordination problems. Whether we are better off with government dictates in specific situations, of course, is always open for debate. Because effective government requires concentration of power and compulsion so it is vulnerable to abuse, corruption, mismanagement, etc.

    Thank you for making an excellent argument for daylight savings time (and for the existence of government!). I have to admit it’s a good, rational rejoinder to a simplistic slogan like “keep the government out of our clocks!”.

    I still don’t like it, but I now see how daylight savings time is a clever solution to the collective action problem of letting everyone’s schedule track the sun a little better.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  180. Dtbb says:
    @ScarletNumber
    Even worse than Cleveland are Detroit and Indianapolis. Sunset can be as late as 9:13 in the former and 9:17 in the latter. Of course both cities belong in the Central Time Zone.

    I always thought the Redwings had an advantage when they played in the western conference. Could the time zone differences been to their advantage? A lot of titles back then.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  181. Michelle says:

    Ma Chère Grandmère, who as was as mean as hell but very smart, told me that when Daylight Savings was first proposed, some farmers were against it, as they were afraid that an “Extra hour of daylight would burn the crops”! Some people were against it because it messed with “God’s Time”. In any case, as a user of public transportation, falling back is hell. Catching the bus in the inner city in the dark is no fun at all. I wish that they would just leave it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    The DC transit system WMATA in 2012 forgot to account for DST and stranded people.

    http://www.thetransitwire.com/2012/11/07/wmata-daylight-savings-snafu-leaves-riders-stranded/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  182. Dtbb says:
    @Kyle
    As a working man, I understand the value of daylight savings time. We start our work days at 6 am every day. It’s nice that the sun starts to come out at 7 am, even in the dead of winter. It would suck to be in the dark for 2 hours. I suppose we could buy portable flood light.... but we’ve never had to.
    As a working man I understand the implicitly human advantages of the imperial system of measurements. And inch an be thought of as a unit. One thirty second of that inch has an exact, precise definition. If tolerances call for thirty seconds of an inch, there is an exact and precise way to measure them. 1inch/ (2^5) is precisely equal to one thirty second of an inch. Divide it in half five times. There is definitely merit to the metric system. I’m the lab it’s nice to be able to deal in the abstract. But on the job site you must deal in preciseness.
    As a working man, I understand the value of a penny. If a 24oz of Bush is priced at 1.01$ and I give the cashier a two dollar bill and one penny, I will receive 1 dollar in change. Effectively, the value of a penny can range anywhere from 0€ to 1$.
    There’s some kind of disconnect between people like me and people like her. I’m not sure what it is.

    You should try surveying sometime. Measurements are made in hundredths of a foot called an engineer’s rule to ease arithmetic. It’s always fun to hand a carpenter an engineer’s tape to measure cuts some other carpenter measured with a normal tape. The head scratching is hilarious. I would have no problem switching to metric because it’s more precise.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    No, metric (SI) is not any more precise - that term is meaningless for the units. Precision is in the measuring instrument and the calculations done afterward.

    Engineers still talk "4 thou" as in 4 thousandths on an inch, o.oo4. If you are familiar with certain units, you can get very comfortable, i.e. eyeball and feel a piece of sheet metal and give it's thickness in thousandths within 20%.

    I'll give you that, once you've got SI units down, the in-the-head calculations are so much easier. Also, with SI you don't have to worry about pounds-mass vs. pounds-force vs. slugs. Never heard of slugs? Your mind is probably the better for that.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  183. Anon87 says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    No, it wasn't the AM/PM, mon! (It turned out, it was the wake-up service, who was sleeping with Elaine, as I think I recall.)

    From season 8. The Susie:

    JERRY and KRAMER are walking down the street at dusk.]

    KRAMER

    Look how dark it’s gettin’ already.

    JERRY

    Well, it’s not Daylight Savings Time yet.

    KRAMER

    When does it start?

    JERRY

    [pause] I don’t know, they just tell you the night before.

    KRAMER

    Uh. Well, I’m sick o’ waiting. [pulls out his pocket-watch (it has a chain, too)]

    I am springin’ ahead riiight now.

    JERRY

    [under breath] Oh, I’m sure that won’t cause any problems..

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Ahaa... different episode, but more appropriate. Thanks.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  184. @ScarletNumber
    I have found that the anti-DST people tend to be on the spectrum. It makes so much sense to neuro-typicals that we forget that some people overthink things.

    Can you explain what exactly is autistic about not wanting an unnecessary, minor case of jet lag twice per annum?

    Maybe you aren’t as affected by deviations in sleep patterns as other people?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  185. @Anon87
    From season 8. The Susie:

    JERRY and KRAMER are walking down the street at dusk.]

    KRAMER

    Look how dark it's gettin' already.

    JERRY

    Well, it's not Daylight Savings Time yet.

    KRAMER

    When does it start?

    JERRY

    [pause] I don't know, they just tell you the night before.

    KRAMER

    Uh. Well, I'm sick o' waiting. [pulls out his pocket-watch (it has a chain, too)]

    I am springin' ahead riiight now.

    JERRY

    [under breath] Oh, I'm sure that won't cause any problems..

    Ahaa… different episode, but more appropriate. Thanks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon87
    That's ok, I thought it was a longer plot (probably related to AM/PM) but it was just a quick joke at the beginning of an episode.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  186. @Adrian E.
    The evidence that daylight saving time really saves energy is very weak. See, for instance, https://www.livescience.com/56725-does-daylight-saving-time-save-energy.html

    Claims that dailight saving time saves about 1% of energy are based on simplistic methods. In fact, it is not known whether it saves any energy at all. A study based on a natural experiment found that daylight saving time actually increases energy demand: http://www.nber.org/papers/w14429

    I think one of the characteristics of Americans that often surprises Europeans is how gullible and credulous Americans are. Technocrats and lobbyists just have to claim that something is „optimized“ and most Americans will believe it. It was also very easy to make a majority of the American public believe in the stories about WMD in Iraq, countless examples could be found.

    In Europe, people are much more informed that the actual evidence for the claim that dailight saving time saves energy is very weak. That often came up in discussions of the topic. A further difference might be that European technocrats probably are somewhat less detached from science that the American ones and therefore did not go on with claims based on bogus pseudo-scientific methodology claiming dailight saving time is „optimized“ for saving energy.

    I think one of the characteristics of Americans that often surprises Europeans is how gullible and credulous Americans are.

    I think one of the characteristics of Europeans that often surprises me is how pompous and self-important Europeans are, when compared to Americans. Europeans have proven to be remarkable stupid. The latest boner is that you are importing a host of parasites faster than you can say ‘enlightenment’ but your Leftist tilt prevents you from recognizing the unforced error you embrace.

    We will have to conquer Europe, after it has descended into the sh1th0le you have signed up for. It will take us a few decades, but we will evict your Moose Limb overlords.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  187. @Dtbb
    You should try surveying sometime. Measurements are made in hundredths of a foot called an engineer's rule to ease arithmetic. It's always fun to hand a carpenter an engineer's tape to measure cuts some other carpenter measured with a normal tape. The head scratching is hilarious. I would have no problem switching to metric because it's more precise.

    No, metric (SI) is not any more precise – that term is meaningless for the units. Precision is in the measuring instrument and the calculations done afterward.

    Engineers still talk “4 thou” as in 4 thousandths on an inch, o.oo4. If you are familiar with certain units, you can get very comfortable, i.e. eyeball and feel a piece of sheet metal and give it’s thickness in thousandths within 20%.

    I’ll give you that, once you’ve got SI units down, the in-the-head calculations are so much easier. Also, with SI you don’t have to worry about pounds-mass vs. pounds-force vs. slugs. Never heard of slugs? Your mind is probably the better for that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dtbb
    The instruments I use in the field are precise to .005 feet or about 1/16 of an inch. Hit one button to switch to metric and it is precise to a mm or about 1/25 of an inch. Of course getting the concrete poured to that precision is impossible but it is my job to be precise as possible to take up the slack.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  188. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    Are pints still used in the UK or did they switch to a metric equivalent? Can I go to a store in London and buy a pint bottle of beer or will it be something like 0.5 liters?

    They still use pints for draft beers in pubs.

    In stores beer is packaged in milliliters.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  189. Dtbb says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    No, metric (SI) is not any more precise - that term is meaningless for the units. Precision is in the measuring instrument and the calculations done afterward.

    Engineers still talk "4 thou" as in 4 thousandths on an inch, o.oo4. If you are familiar with certain units, you can get very comfortable, i.e. eyeball and feel a piece of sheet metal and give it's thickness in thousandths within 20%.

    I'll give you that, once you've got SI units down, the in-the-head calculations are so much easier. Also, with SI you don't have to worry about pounds-mass vs. pounds-force vs. slugs. Never heard of slugs? Your mind is probably the better for that.

    The instruments I use in the field are precise to .005 feet or about 1/16 of an inch. Hit one button to switch to metric and it is precise to a mm or about 1/25 of an inch. Of course getting the concrete poured to that precision is impossible but it is my job to be precise as possible to take up the slack.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    I got you, Dtbb, so you are limited by your instruments. I understand your case, but another model could have had 0.002 ft as the min. English-units resolution, so 0.024 in ~= .6 mm. Even with that precision does not equal accuracy.

    One thing I'll say about F vs. C temperature values, is that, if we use whole numbers for weather reports (nobody wants to hear it's 6.4 C outside), Fahrenheit has got a resolution that is 1.8 x better than Celsius.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  190. JSM says:
    @Anonymous
    You get an extra hour of effective daylight.

    Daylight in the morning when you're getting ready for work or school, commuting, etc., is wasted daylight. You're unable to enjoy it or use it for recreation.

    Even if you were able to physically enjoy the morning daylight before work or school, you wouldn't be able to enjoy it psychologically, as you'd be dreading the soon to commence school day or workday. Utility is psychological. It's kind of like Sunday evenings. You simply never enjoy a Sunday evening like you do Friday and Saturday evenings because of the psychological dread of the following Monday morning and work week.

    No, none of that’s true. For people who are “night owls” we don’t *care* about daylight. DST was invented by an early riser who, while out for a walk one dawn, got his sense of moral superiority all offended by thinking about all us “lazy layabout night owls” still snoozing, and decided to FORCE us to get up by pushing the clock ahead an hour.

    https://www.timeanddate.com/time/dst/history.html

    Benjamin Franklin, the Father of DST?
    Many sources also credit Benjamin Franklin with being the first to suggest seasonal time change. However, the idea voiced by the American inventor and politician in 1784 can hardly be described as fundamental for the development of modern DST. After all, it did not even involve turning the clocks. In a letter to the editor of the Journal of Paris, which was entitled “An Economical Project for Diminishing the Cost of Light”, Franklin simply suggested that Parisians could economize candle usage by getting people out of bed earlier in the morning. What’s more: Franklin meant it as a joke..

    Here’s ol’ Ben moralizing: All the difficulty will be in the first two or three days; after which the reformation will be as natural and easy as the present irregularity; for, ce n’est que le premier pas qui coûte. Oblige a man to rise at four in the morning, and it is more than probable he will go willingly to bed at eight in the evening; and, having had eight hours sleep, he will rise more willingly at four in the morning following. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/did-benjamin-franklin-invent-daylight-savings-time-1232015/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    How is it not true? You have more daylight left after work or school is finished to do outdoor activities and recreation and enjoy the light outside. You can't play sports outside or have a drink outside while watching the sunset after work or school if you don't have extra daylight at the end of the workday. Those are things you either can't do before work, like drinking, or that aren't as enjoyable to do before work, as they are to do to unwind after a long day at work.

    It's not true that night owls don't care about daylight. NIght owls aren't the same thing as shut-ins. Plenty of night owls enjoy daylight and being outdoors in the light, while also putting off sleep at night to pursue other activities.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  191. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @tomv

    Let them start work later.
     
    Isn't that just a more confusing way of shifting time? If work and school start later, how's that different from "falling back," except now you have two sets of nominal hours to deal with?

    Let them work later year round.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  192. JSM says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    But why force ME to do it? My work makes me arrive when “the clock” says 8, regardless of how long it’s been since sunrise. I don’t care if the sun’s been up for an hour, or three. It makes no difference to my work. Yet you guys who care about daylight and so want to rise early, FORCE me to show up earlier than I would otherwise.
    This is tyranny.
     
    Oh, the humanity.

    Are you really not getting this? Perhaps you have a flexible schedule, but there are many millions of people who do not. They are not at liberty to simply decree when they're going to show up for work. Their schedule is pegged to the schedules of their coworkers, and the schedule of the whole company is pegged to the schedule of its business partners. Everybody needs to be on the same page, which is why we use clocks in the first place. Your libertarian approach to start times would literally blow up the economy. Nothing would get done on a reliable basis, and it would be like living in Nicaragua.

    Now, whether we should actually have DST or not is a separate issue, but whatever we have, it has to be the same for everyone. Telling people they can just show up an hour late for work if they feel like it is a nonstarter.

    I’ll try again.

    First let me explain something: The clock on Standard Time shows 12 noon when the sun is directly overhead, crossing the meridian. Consequently, the clock matches the sun.

    DST simply pushes the clock ahead so it “says” 1 pm when the sun is crossing the meridian (i.e., the sun says it’s noon.) Likewise, when the DST clock “says” it’s 5 pm and you get off work, in reality according with the sun it’s actually 4 pm (4 hrs. post the sun’s crossing the meridian). Likewise, when DST clock “says” it’s 10 pm bedtime, in actuality with the sun, it’s 9 pm (nine hours since the sun crossed the meridian). Likewise DST clock “says” it’s 6 am when the sun is rising (even though if we’d left things on Standard Time reality in accordance with the sun, the clock would say 5 am.)

    So, the clock “says” it’s 6 am, time to get up, so you get up — even though it’s actually 5 am. It’s not really 6 am. If it were really 6 am, it would be 6 hours til meridian. But it’s not, it’s seven hours. The time is *actually* 5 am.

    You’ve simply been forced to do everything an hour earlier.

    So, anyone who thinks DST “gives them an extra hour of daylight,” no. There’s no such thing. The sun shines when it shines. How long after sunrise you would get up, if we always stayed on Standard Time, would depend on what you do.

    But DST FORCES people, who would have no reason to get up early just because the sun rises early, to get out of bed anyway.

    I’m not saying we should not all have clocks showing the same time. I’m saying, stop the DST.

    It is no strain on the farmer who gets up with the sun in summer for his clock to say 4 am (as the sun says) as opposed to 5 am (where his clock’s been pushed ahead one hour for DST). He gets up with the sun. What the clock “says” is irrelevant to what he has to do.

    But for those of us whose employer says “be here at 8,” we’re actually being forced to be there at 7, according to the sun. And that most certainly is a strain for DST to be imposed upon us — for no ACTUAL gain to society.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    You get an extra hour of effective or useful daylight.

    For the average working man and student, daylight before work when one is getting up, getting coffee, having breakfast, sitting on the can, shaving, showering, commuting to work, etc., and daylight during work when one is cooped up inside the office or school, is effectively useless daylight. You don't get to use and enjoy that light. It might as well not exist. The shift allows an extra hour of daylight after work or school, when it can actually be used by the average person.
    , @Anonymous
    Clocks don't have to match the sun. Ultimately, setting time by the sun is arbitrary just like setting time by a man made clock or by some other regular phenomenon. The sun is used because it's a mechanical motion, just like man made mechanical clocks. The sun and earth's motion are more regular and reliable than any man made mechanical clock, and thus are ideal natural clocks for practical purposes, but they aren't some final arbiters of time that are inviolate. We violate them everyday, by setting our time by convention and going by clocks set to convention, rather than by going strictly by the sun.
    , @Intelligent Dasein

    I’ll try again.
     
    You don't have to try again. Everybody here understands exactly what you're saying. Everybody here understands how Daylight Savings Time works. Everybody is already aware of the specific complaint you've been raising. And nobody here is stupid enough to actually believe that DST causes the sun to shine for an extra hour in the winter, so please stop talking to us as if we were. Your Dunning-Kruger is starting to show.

    So let's have it your way. I will stipulate to the fact that, yes, DST "forces" you to get your precious ass up out of bed an hour earlier once each year. It's not a perfect system. On the other hand, not using DST would "force" millions of people to endure unwanted hours of AM darkness throughout the winter, so that's not a perfect a system either.

    Now, your argument seems to be that those other people are at liberty to voluntarily change their start times if they want to avoid the darkness, whereas you are not at liberty to voluntarily avoid shifting to DST if you don't want to do so, and therefore this is "tyranny."

    I'm sorry but I can't spare much sympathy for that argument. Changing start times is a major logistical hassle that is no less difficult whether it is done voluntarily or not, and is certainly not less difficult than you having to wake up at a different time. Moreover, it doesn't even make sense to do it unless everyone else is doing it too (and doing it at the same moment, and to the same degree). So DST is tantamount to society collectively making the decision to start the day an hour earlier, and enforcing this decision by the simple expedient of changing the clock. Yes, you're right; this does involve a certain element of coercion, but so does every rule and law. I do not see how this one is particularly odious.

    There are plenty of good arguments that can be lodged both for and against DST, but the idea that it is tyrannical is not one of them.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  193. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @PhysicistDave
    Dave Pinsen wrote to me:

    Let them start work later.
     
    It's just a classic "coordination problem": as a practical matter, which is the easier way to coordinate things -- everyone alters their clocks or everyone alters the nominal time when they go to work?

    Dave Pinsen also wrote:

    Really, given the high percentage of bullsh*t jobs, would if more people came in later or worked staggered start times?
     
    Even better, let's set all their clocks to the PM so they never get out of bed!

    Seriously, I concur in recommending the Graeber book you link to: Graeber is one of the increasing number of leftists who actually make sense as the liberal Establishment is imploding. I also recommend his The Utopia of Rules.

    Even better, let’s set all their clocks to the PM so they never get out of bed!

    Works for me.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  194. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @JSM
    No, none of that's true. For people who are "night owls" we don't *care* about daylight. DST was invented by an early riser who, while out for a walk one dawn, got his sense of moral superiority all offended by thinking about all us "lazy layabout night owls" still snoozing, and decided to FORCE us to get up by pushing the clock ahead an hour.

    https://www.timeanddate.com/time/dst/history.html
    Benjamin Franklin, the Father of DST?
    Many sources also credit Benjamin Franklin with being the first to suggest seasonal time change. However, the idea voiced by the American inventor and politician in 1784 can hardly be described as fundamental for the development of modern DST. After all, it did not even involve turning the clocks. In a letter to the editor of the Journal of Paris, which was entitled “An Economical Project for Diminishing the Cost of Light”, Franklin simply suggested that Parisians could economize candle usage by getting people out of bed earlier in the morning. What's more: Franklin meant it as a joke..

    Here's ol' Ben moralizing: All the difficulty will be in the first two or three days; after which the reformation will be as natural and easy as the present irregularity; for, ce n’est que le premier pas qui coûte. Oblige a man to rise at four in the morning, and it is more than probable he will go willingly to bed at eight in the evening; and, having had eight hours sleep, he will rise more willingly at four in the morning following. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/did-benjamin-franklin-invent-daylight-savings-time-1232015/

    How is it not true? You have more daylight left after work or school is finished to do outdoor activities and recreation and enjoy the light outside. You can’t play sports outside or have a drink outside while watching the sunset after work or school if you don’t have extra daylight at the end of the workday. Those are things you either can’t do before work, like drinking, or that aren’t as enjoyable to do before work, as they are to do to unwind after a long day at work.

    It’s not true that night owls don’t care about daylight. NIght owls aren’t the same thing as shut-ins. Plenty of night owls enjoy daylight and being outdoors in the light, while also putting off sleep at night to pursue other activities.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  195. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @JSM
    I'll try again.

    First let me explain something: The clock on Standard Time shows 12 noon when the sun is directly overhead, crossing the meridian. Consequently, the clock matches the sun.

    DST simply pushes the clock ahead so it "says" 1 pm when the sun is crossing the meridian (i.e., the sun says it's noon.) Likewise, when the DST clock "says" it's 5 pm and you get off work, in reality according with the sun it's actually 4 pm (4 hrs. post the sun's crossing the meridian). Likewise, when DST clock "says" it's 10 pm bedtime, in actuality with the sun, it's 9 pm (nine hours since the sun crossed the meridian). Likewise DST clock "says" it's 6 am when the sun is rising (even though if we'd left things on Standard Time reality in accordance with the sun, the clock would say 5 am.)

    So, the clock "says" it's 6 am, time to get up, so you get up -- even though it's actually 5 am. It's not really 6 am. If it were really 6 am, it would be 6 hours til meridian. But it's not, it's seven hours. The time is *actually* 5 am.

    You've simply been forced to do everything an hour earlier.

    So, anyone who thinks DST "gives them an extra hour of daylight," no. There's no such thing. The sun shines when it shines. How long after sunrise you would get up, if we always stayed on Standard Time, would depend on what you do.

    But DST FORCES people, who would have no reason to get up early just because the sun rises early, to get out of bed anyway.


    I'm not saying we should not all have clocks showing the same time. I'm saying, stop the DST.

    It is no strain on the farmer who gets up with the sun in summer for his clock to say 4 am (as the sun says) as opposed to 5 am (where his clock's been pushed ahead one hour for DST). He gets up with the sun. What the clock "says" is irrelevant to what he has to do.

    But for those of us whose employer says "be here at 8," we're actually being forced to be there at 7, according to the sun. And that most certainly is a strain for DST to be imposed upon us -- for no ACTUAL gain to society.

    You get an extra hour of effective or useful daylight.

    For the average working man and student, daylight before work when one is getting up, getting coffee, having breakfast, sitting on the can, shaving, showering, commuting to work, etc., and daylight during work when one is cooped up inside the office or school, is effectively useless daylight. You don’t get to use and enjoy that light. It might as well not exist. The shift allows an extra hour of daylight after work or school, when it can actually be used by the average person.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  196. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @JSM
    I'll try again.

    First let me explain something: The clock on Standard Time shows 12 noon when the sun is directly overhead, crossing the meridian. Consequently, the clock matches the sun.

    DST simply pushes the clock ahead so it "says" 1 pm when the sun is crossing the meridian (i.e., the sun says it's noon.) Likewise, when the DST clock "says" it's 5 pm and you get off work, in reality according with the sun it's actually 4 pm (4 hrs. post the sun's crossing the meridian). Likewise, when DST clock "says" it's 10 pm bedtime, in actuality with the sun, it's 9 pm (nine hours since the sun crossed the meridian). Likewise DST clock "says" it's 6 am when the sun is rising (even though if we'd left things on Standard Time reality in accordance with the sun, the clock would say 5 am.)

    So, the clock "says" it's 6 am, time to get up, so you get up -- even though it's actually 5 am. It's not really 6 am. If it were really 6 am, it would be 6 hours til meridian. But it's not, it's seven hours. The time is *actually* 5 am.

    You've simply been forced to do everything an hour earlier.

    So, anyone who thinks DST "gives them an extra hour of daylight," no. There's no such thing. The sun shines when it shines. How long after sunrise you would get up, if we always stayed on Standard Time, would depend on what you do.

    But DST FORCES people, who would have no reason to get up early just because the sun rises early, to get out of bed anyway.


    I'm not saying we should not all have clocks showing the same time. I'm saying, stop the DST.

    It is no strain on the farmer who gets up with the sun in summer for his clock to say 4 am (as the sun says) as opposed to 5 am (where his clock's been pushed ahead one hour for DST). He gets up with the sun. What the clock "says" is irrelevant to what he has to do.

    But for those of us whose employer says "be here at 8," we're actually being forced to be there at 7, according to the sun. And that most certainly is a strain for DST to be imposed upon us -- for no ACTUAL gain to society.

    Clocks don’t have to match the sun. Ultimately, setting time by the sun is arbitrary just like setting time by a man made clock or by some other regular phenomenon. The sun is used because it’s a mechanical motion, just like man made mechanical clocks. The sun and earth’s motion are more regular and reliable than any man made mechanical clock, and thus are ideal natural clocks for practical purposes, but they aren’t some final arbiters of time that are inviolate. We violate them everyday, by setting our time by convention and going by clocks set to convention, rather than by going strictly by the sun.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  197. @Dtbb
    The instruments I use in the field are precise to .005 feet or about 1/16 of an inch. Hit one button to switch to metric and it is precise to a mm or about 1/25 of an inch. Of course getting the concrete poured to that precision is impossible but it is my job to be precise as possible to take up the slack.

    I got you, Dtbb, so you are limited by your instruments. I understand your case, but another model could have had 0.002 ft as the min. English-units resolution, so 0.024 in ~= .6 mm. Even with that precision does not equal accuracy.

    One thing I’ll say about F vs. C temperature values, is that, if we use whole numbers for weather reports (nobody wants to hear it’s 6.4 C outside), Fahrenheit has got a resolution that is 1.8 x better than Celsius.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dtbb
    You're right, precision was a bad choice of word. I would prefer metric units because architectural drawings are in feet, inches and then fractions of inches which I then convert to feet and hundredths of feet to use survey instruments. Would be easier in my opinion if the drawings were just metric to begin with. Less chance for error in conversions too.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  198. Albertde says:
    @CJ
    Why would anybody in southern California give a rat turd about daylight savings time? The length of the days really doesn’t change all that much there. If you’re in Scotland or Sweden or Edmonton, Alberta summer daylight will go on to almost 11:00 pm. Not so in Arizona, which AFAIK resisted daylight savings time as long as they could.

    At least one Canadian province, Saskatchewan (entirely above the 49th parallel), never adopted DST. I salute their good sense.

    Saskatchewan is mostly on Central Standard Time but is geographically in the Mountain Time Zone, so, while they don’t switch, it is because they are on year-round Daylight Savings!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  199. Tulip says:

    Daylight Savings Time sucks, and has never served any useful purpose.

    Merkel is right on this one.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  200. JMcG says:
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    I am in favor of daylight savings time not because it saves energy but because it coordinates the hours of daylight better with your waking hours. For example, in Philadelphia on the longest day of the year the sun rises at around 5:30 AM and sets at around 8:30 PM as a result of the DST shift. Without the DST shift, the sun would rise at 4:30 AM (when almost everyone is asleep) and set at 7:30PM (depriving a lot of people of after work recreational time).

    On the other hand, on the shortest day of the year, the sun rises at this latitude at around 7:30 and sets at around 4:45 (but only because the clock has been shifted OFF of summer time). If we kept permanent summer time (which I understand is the EU proposal) then sunrise would not happen until 8:30 AM so many people would have to travel to work/school in pitch darkness.
     
    I'm in the same area and I don't see the trouble here.

    You can play ball under the lights in the summer. It gets dark enough in advance of children's bed times so that they can chase lightening bugs for a half hour. Have you ever tried convincing a young child that it's really their bedtime even though it's still light out?

    Early sunsets in the winter mean you can see the Christmas lights on your way home from work. The winter sunsets can be spectacular. There's something cozy and homely in my view about coming home with Jack Frost nipping at your nose when it's dark out, and starting a fire in the fireplace for the evening. Having a few belts at the local after work is more seemly when it's dark outside.

    Very well put, Alec. Coming home to a warm house in the darkest part of winter is much more human than steeling oneself to stepping out into the howling darkness of an early January morning.

    I believe you have changed my mind on this issue. Will wonders never cease?
    Thanks.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  201. @JSM
    I'll try again.

    First let me explain something: The clock on Standard Time shows 12 noon when the sun is directly overhead, crossing the meridian. Consequently, the clock matches the sun.

    DST simply pushes the clock ahead so it "says" 1 pm when the sun is crossing the meridian (i.e., the sun says it's noon.) Likewise, when the DST clock "says" it's 5 pm and you get off work, in reality according with the sun it's actually 4 pm (4 hrs. post the sun's crossing the meridian). Likewise, when DST clock "says" it's 10 pm bedtime, in actuality with the sun, it's 9 pm (nine hours since the sun crossed the meridian). Likewise DST clock "says" it's 6 am when the sun is rising (even though if we'd left things on Standard Time reality in accordance with the sun, the clock would say 5 am.)

    So, the clock "says" it's 6 am, time to get up, so you get up -- even though it's actually 5 am. It's not really 6 am. If it were really 6 am, it would be 6 hours til meridian. But it's not, it's seven hours. The time is *actually* 5 am.

    You've simply been forced to do everything an hour earlier.

    So, anyone who thinks DST "gives them an extra hour of daylight," no. There's no such thing. The sun shines when it shines. How long after sunrise you would get up, if we always stayed on Standard Time, would depend on what you do.

    But DST FORCES people, who would have no reason to get up early just because the sun rises early, to get out of bed anyway.


    I'm not saying we should not all have clocks showing the same time. I'm saying, stop the DST.

    It is no strain on the farmer who gets up with the sun in summer for his clock to say 4 am (as the sun says) as opposed to 5 am (where his clock's been pushed ahead one hour for DST). He gets up with the sun. What the clock "says" is irrelevant to what he has to do.

    But for those of us whose employer says "be here at 8," we're actually being forced to be there at 7, according to the sun. And that most certainly is a strain for DST to be imposed upon us -- for no ACTUAL gain to society.

    I’ll try again.

    You don’t have to try again. Everybody here understands exactly what you’re saying. Everybody here understands how Daylight Savings Time works. Everybody is already aware of the specific complaint you’ve been raising. And nobody here is stupid enough to actually believe that DST causes the sun to shine for an extra hour in the winter, so please stop talking to us as if we were. Your Dunning-Kruger is starting to show.

    So let’s have it your way. I will stipulate to the fact that, yes, DST “forces” you to get your precious ass up out of bed an hour earlier once each year. It’s not a perfect system. On the other hand, not using DST would “force” millions of people to endure unwanted hours of AM darkness throughout the winter, so that’s not a perfect a system either.

    Now, your argument seems to be that those other people are at liberty to voluntarily change their start times if they want to avoid the darkness, whereas you are not at liberty to voluntarily avoid shifting to DST if you don’t want to do so, and therefore this is “tyranny.”

    I’m sorry but I can’t spare much sympathy for that argument. Changing start times is a major logistical hassle that is no less difficult whether it is done voluntarily or not, and is certainly not less difficult than you having to wake up at a different time. Moreover, it doesn’t even make sense to do it unless everyone else is doing it too (and doing it at the same moment, and to the same degree). So DST is tantamount to society collectively making the decision to start the day an hour earlier, and enforcing this decision by the simple expedient of changing the clock. Yes, you’re right; this does involve a certain element of coercion, but so does every rule and law. I do not see how this one is particularly odious.

    There are plenty of good arguments that can be lodged both for and against DST, but the idea that it is tyrannical is not one of them.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  202. @Pericles
    As any programmer who has encountered tz knows, time zones are oddities.

    "Most of the time zones on land are offset from Coordinated Universal Time (UTC) by a whole number of hours (UTC−12 to UTC+14), but a few zones are offset by 30 or 45 minutes (e.g. Newfoundland Standard Time is UTC−03:30, Nepal Standard Time is UTC+05:45, and Indian Standard Time is UTC+05:30)."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_zone

    Geographically speaking, they need not correspond to longitudes or anything like that either.

    https://37tx5035jacw32yb7m4b6qev-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Solar_time_vs_standard_time.png

    (The URL looks a bit dodgy, so I'll add the caption that it's a map of the geographical extent of time zones.)

    And it’s the same time everywhere in China even though the country spans 9 15 degrees arc of longitude.

    I had the task of adding time zone support to our application several years ago and now know more about time zones than is necessary.

    The Olson time zone database (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tz_database) was started in the 1970s by a guy named Arthur David Olson who worked at NIH. It is now the tz database and is maintained by one guy under the auspices of ICANN. It is the data that used everywhere, and I mean everywhere, in computer systems and languages.

    The low v0lume mailing list has at least one email a month saying something like, “How come is not the name in “, and it is politely explained that the largest city in is used and no, we are not changing it.

    Then there are the politicians who decide to change DST or even their time zone in the next 10 days, not realizing that the major vendors of computers and phones need several months of lead time to get the new data out. So the people all wake up one morning and the time is wrong.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  203. @Michelle
    Ma Chère Grandmère, who as was as mean as hell but very smart, told me that when Daylight Savings was first proposed, some farmers were against it, as they were afraid that an "Extra hour of daylight would burn the crops"! Some people were against it because it messed with "God's Time". In any case, as a user of public transportation, falling back is hell. Catching the bus in the inner city in the dark is no fun at all. I wish that they would just leave it.

    The DC transit system WMATA in 2012 forgot to account for DST and stranded people.

    http://www.thetransitwire.com/2012/11/07/wmata-daylight-savings-snafu-leaves-riders-stranded/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Michelle
    Oh My God!! That really happened! Help me Mr Wizard, I don't want to be an American any more!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  204. anon[396] • Disclaimer says:

    Not a few people would have voted to impeach Nixon just for that Daylight Savings Time fiasco.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  205. JMcG says:
    @Anonymous
    In the US, people typically don't order "pints" as the customary single serving in bars. You order just a specific beer e.g. "1 Heineken", and it's served in the bottle or in a glass if it's on tap. A bottle of beer is 12 ounces, which is a cup and a half. When it's served in a glass, the glass is typically 16 ounces, which is 2 cups, although the size of the glass can vary by venue. 16 ounces is an American pint. Because it's not customary for people to order and be served pints of beer in bars in the US, Americans generally don't have a general, immediate sense and grasp of what a pint is.

    Whereas in the UK, pints are the standard serving in pubs and thus everyone has a sense for what a pint is. The UK pint is a bit more than 2 cups.

    What Americans do have a sense of are cups. Cups are very intuitive because everyone drinks cups of things everyday. Everyone knows roughly what a cup is, can visualize it easily, etc. Everyone has cups of water, cups of coffee, etc. So it's a good intuitive unit. A gallon is 4 quarts, which is easy to remember because quart implies 4 or fourths of something. A quart is 4 cups, which again is easy to remember because the name suggests 4. And everyone knows what 4 cups are. People might not know or remember that a cup has 8 ounces, but that's fine because people often don't speak of ounces but rather in terms of fractions of cups i.e. half a cup, quarter cup, etc., which everyone has a sense of.

    A pint weighs a pound, all the world round.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  206. Anon87 says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    Ahaa... different episode, but more appropriate. Thanks.

    That’s ok, I thought it was a longer plot (probably related to AM/PM) but it was just a quick joke at the beginning of an episode.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  207. Dtbb says:
    @Achmed E. Newman
    I got you, Dtbb, so you are limited by your instruments. I understand your case, but another model could have had 0.002 ft as the min. English-units resolution, so 0.024 in ~= .6 mm. Even with that precision does not equal accuracy.

    One thing I'll say about F vs. C temperature values, is that, if we use whole numbers for weather reports (nobody wants to hear it's 6.4 C outside), Fahrenheit has got a resolution that is 1.8 x better than Celsius.

    You’re right, precision was a bad choice of word. I would prefer metric units because architectural drawings are in feet, inches and then fractions of inches which I then convert to feet and hundredths of feet to use survey instruments. Would be easier in my opinion if the drawings were just metric to begin with. Less chance for error in conversions too.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  208. @dwb
    FWIW, Hawaii also does not change its clocks.

    But Hawaii is very close to the equator, so they do not have the extreme changes in sunlight. The point of DST is really lost the closer you get to the equator.

    To be candid, I do not get why this is even an issue. The time change I guess results in a handful of people missing appointments on Sundays (people who, despite the numerous warnings, still fail to set their clocks properly), and I've seen some anecdotal claims that, in the days immediately after the change, a slight rise in road accidents. But really - what the hell? THIS is the thing that Angela Merkel wants to have a debate about?

    We lived in Paris for a couple of years, which is quite far north. Not as far as Stockholm, of course. There is just no way around it - in December and January, with "standard" time, you wake up and go to work or get the kids to school in the dark. In late December/early January, the sun will rise at 8.44 AM. And that is WITH "standard time." If you had "summer" time, that would be at 9.44. It will set just before 5 PM. If you had DST, it would be at 6.

    Either way, you are still travelling in the morning in the dark, and at night in the dark. With 8 hours of sun, you cannot "solve" the problem, so just suck it up.

    (France is kind of unique, as although Paris and London are more or less on the same line of longitude, Paris is an hour forward following the German occupation in WWII - they moved their clocks forward to correspond to the time in Berlin).

    This is a fake issue.

    Belgium, France, the Netherlands, and Spain all belong on London time.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  209. res says:
    @Jack D
    Actually Philly is not at the center but close to the eastern edge of the Eastern Time Zone, which runs thru the meridian at 75 degrees west (NY is even closer). The actual time zone borders are manipulated to follow political borders, etc. but the basis pattern is that there is a new time zone every 15 degrees (x24 =360). Zero degrees runs thru Greenwich, England which is not the MIDDLE of its time zone but the eastern edge of it and so on for every time zone, so the people at the western edge of a zone live in a sort of permanent daylight savings time.

    Terre Haute, Indiana is at the far western edge of the eastern time zone and on some days during daylight savings solar noon does not occur until almost 2PM (with sunrise and sunset also shifted).

    Actually Philly is not at the center but close to the eastern edge of the Eastern Time Zone, which runs thru the meridian at 75 degrees west (NY is even closer). The actual time zone borders are manipulated to follow political borders, etc. but the basis pattern is that there is a new time zone every 15 degrees (x24 =360). Zero degrees runs thru Greenwich, England which is not the MIDDLE of its time zone but the eastern edge of it and so on for every time zone,

    Perhaps it would be more accurate (and/or clear) to say that Philly is very close to the “0 point” of the Eastern time zone (i.e. clock noon = solar noon). Which makes sense given the longitude: 75.1652° W

    Looking at this time zone map I think it is fair to say Philly is closer to the center than the far right of the Eastern time zone. The eastern boundary is not the Atlantic coast by you. Though you are right to observe that political boundaries push the western boundary further west.

    You can also see that Greenwich is at the center of its nominal time zone, but the European political boundaries make a dramatic difference in that region.

    Not sure why that one failed. Let’s try another. (second attempt both worked, but leaving in in case the first one breaks again)

    To be clear, the 15 degree intervals are in fact the centers of the nominal time zones.

    P.S. Good observation about Terra Haute, IN. It is at 87.4139° W longitude so a third of the way past the 75/90 halfway point. So roughly speaking a 30 minute skew for being at the halfway point plus another 20 minutes for being a third past it.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  210. @Jack D
    Actually Philly is not at the center but close to the eastern edge of the Eastern Time Zone, which runs thru the meridian at 75 degrees west (NY is even closer). The actual time zone borders are manipulated to follow political borders, etc. but the basis pattern is that there is a new time zone every 15 degrees (x24 =360). Zero degrees runs thru Greenwich, England which is not the MIDDLE of its time zone but the eastern edge of it and so on for every time zone, so the people at the western edge of a zone live in a sort of permanent daylight savings time.

    Terre Haute, Indiana is at the far western edge of the eastern time zone and on some days during daylight savings solar noon does not occur until almost 2PM (with sunrise and sunset also shifted).

    This is incorrect. The theoretical center of each time zone is a line of longitude that is a multiple of 15°. From there adjustments are made for commercial and political reasons.

    Yankee Stadium is at 73°56′ W, so by your standard NYC would be in the western edge of UTC -4, rather than being in the middle of UTC -5, which it actually is.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  211. Michelle says:
    @Jim Don Bob
    The DC transit system WMATA in 2012 forgot to account for DST and stranded people.

    http://www.thetransitwire.com/2012/11/07/wmata-daylight-savings-snafu-leaves-riders-stranded/

    Oh My God!! That really happened! Help me Mr Wizard, I don’t want to be an American any more!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  212. MBlanc46 says:
    @JSM
    But, you don't GET "an extra hour of daylight in the evenings."

    ALL that is happening is, DST forces you to get up an hour earlier after sunrise, than you prob would otherwise. So, since you got UP an hour earlier, you start work an hour earlier, so your work ends an hour earlier, and your time of night time sleep onset comes an hour earlier, than it would if we stayed on Standard Time.

    You've merely shifted your waking hours to earlier in the 24-hour day. Which is fine; you can do that, if you'd like, without the "help" of DST. But what right do you have to force ME to?

    We all get that. We get the daylight at the clock tine that we want it.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
Current Commenter says:

Leave a Reply - Comments are moderated by iSteve, at whim.


 Remember My InformationWhy?
 Email Replies to my Comment
Submitted comments become the property of The Unz Review and may be republished elsewhere at the sole discretion of the latter
Subscribe to This Comment Thread via RSS Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS
PastClassics
The “war hero” candidate buried information about POWs left behind in Vietnam.
What Was John McCain's True Wartime Record in Vietnam?
Hundreds of POWs may have been left to die in Vietnam, abandoned by their government—and our media.
Are elite university admissions based on meritocracy and diversity as claimed?
The evidence is clear — but often ignored