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Perhaps the biggest hot potato question that will likely soon be answerable due to rapid advances in doing DNA scans on ancient skeletons is: Who is more closely related genetically to the Hebrews of the Old Testament: Israeli Jews or Palestinians?

Geneticist David Reich of Harvard is a wise man, so he has made clear that he intends to never ever research this question. It’s a big world with lots of interesting questions to ask, so he’ll leave this particular one to somebody with fewer relatives with intense opinions on the subject.

But now Bibi is diving into ancient DNA:

Are we sure that “Philistine” and “Palestine” aren’t related?

The Philistines, by the way, appear to be one of the Sea Peoples who played a sizable but murky role in the Late Bronze Age Collapse, around the time of the Trojan War, c. 1200 BC. [Insert “jawbone of an ass” Oscar Wilde joke TK]

The Bronze Age tended to see largish empires centralized around palaces, but then the empires decayed and a less advanced culture of smaller nations, like the Hebrews, emerged. This may have something to do with Europeans entering the stage of written history under the name Sea Peoples.

Well, maybe. Or maybe not. I dunno.

I’ve done some back of an envelope calculations about Holy Land genetics and have decided that it could go either way and it’s likely to be close. So I’ll leave it to braver souls like Bibi to opinionize about this.

By the way, you can expect that as this issue moves up to the scientific frontburner, all sorts of not unreasonable but slightly niggling complaints will be lodged about high tech graverobbing. So far, the work of Svante Paabo, Reich, etc. has been mostly greeted with approbation. But once the graverobbing gets closer to Jerusalem, the more arguments there will be, both about ethics and methodology.

For example, how do we know that an ancient skeleton is demographically representative? Perhaps the cemetery that is being raided was for a special ethnicity, such as merchants from far away? For instance, modern Los Angeles has a whole bunch of cemeteries, each with its own demographic twist. L.A. even has its own Serbian Cemetery, which could be really misleading about the general population of L.A. if you happened to start digging there.

 
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  1. The lies of the Zionists are so silly I really can’t even be bothered to address them in detail.

    The descendants of the ancient Israelites are today’s Palestinians. Of course they are.

    Now, can we move on to something about which there is more than one legitimate opinion?

  2. This is good news. It means I can go back to every house my parents, grandparents, great grandparents and so forth ever lived in — kick out whoever lives there now — and claim it as my own.

    That’s a lot of real estate. All it takes is a little chutzpah.

  3. nebulafox says:

    From what I recall, Hadrian named the place Palestine after the Philistines, precisely to add insult to injury. This was right after crushing the Bar Kokhba revolt, so perhaps it fit with the general plans for cultural extermination.

    • Replies: @gcochran
  4. “Are we sure that “Philistine” and “Palestine” aren’t related?”

    Uh, actually yes we are. After defeating the Jews in a rebellion vs. Roman authority in 135AD (for the 2nd time, the first was in 70AD), the Roman Emperor Hadrian then banished the Jews from Jerusalem, and scattered them throughout the Roman Empire, thus beginning the Diaspora. It was then that the Romans renamed Judea and Samaria as “Palestina”, which is where we get the word Palestine. Over the centuries (starting from 135AD) the name Palestine stuck. But it was in reference to the name given by the Romans, and not for the original inhabitants (which were the Jews–or at least the original ones who had been residing there before kicked out in 135AD).

    Some decades ago, it was Jordanian king Hussein who stated that there was no such thing as a distinct Palestinian people (or tribe, much less a race), and that the Palestinians were mostly Arabian, Jordanian, as well as of Syrian descent.

    As John Derbyshire once stated in an American Renaissance Conference quoting George Orwell “There are some things that are true, even though the Communist Party says they are true.”

    Translation: Bibi is correct on this one. Historically, (and to some degree, the Old Testament Scriptures can suffice to serve as written historical accounts) the only part that the ancient Philistines would have had a right to have, would be the Gaza area. The West Bank, as it were known, historically (going back in the Bible to thousands of years) was originally inhabited by Hebrews, later the Jews. The West Bank was historically (in Biblical times) known as Judea and Sumeria.

    4,000 yrs ago, there was no such thing as a Palestinian people per se in the modern sense of what the term means right now. And, from a DNA standpoint, the ancient Philistines aren’t the direct ancestors of the modern Palestinians (who are mostly Arabian). If anything, the modern Palestinians are racially more in line with Mohammed than with Moses.

    Translation: Jerusalem, by right of history, belongs to Israel. Neither the ancient Philistines nor the modern day Arabs/Jordanians/Syrians = Palestinians, have a lengthy (several millennia) timeline to claim direct possession of the land. It’s not really that up for debate. Its like the state of Indiana, while sorta kinda resembling the nation of India, isn’t really the same thing at all whatsoever.

  5. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    Ashkenazim are not related to any people from around what is now Israel, except by intermarriage with Sephardi or Mizrahi Jews.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  6. Anonymous[340] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    The lies of the Zionists are so silly I really can’t even be bothered to address them in detail.

    The Jews themselves say they are descended from people who were from a region in Italy.

  7. nebulafox says:

    I wouldn’t be so quick to think the Palestinians are relatively new there. Palestinians are probably the descendants of people who lived there before the conquests and got Arabized and Islamicized over the centuries following the conquests (think what happened to the Germanics in post-Rome Italy, but in reverse), much like the Egyptians and Syrians that all used to be Romans and the Iraqis that used to be Mesopotamian subjects of the Sassanids. For all we know, that might have included Jews, though I doubt it, to some extent: the ones who clung on though all the centuries of Roman repression, pagan and Christian, would have been hardcore.

    Also, worth mentioning that the initial wave of Arabs justified conquest of the Holy Land on their descent from Abraham. Many Jews welcomed them, like the Persians before them, as liberators until it became clear that the Arabs had no more interest in reviving Israel than any other foreign conqueror.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  8. Anonymous[340] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    It was then that the Romans renamed Judea and Samaria as “Palestina”, which is where we get the word Palestine. Over the centuries (starting from 135AD) the name Palestine stuck.

    As you note, Palestine predates the State of Israel on that land. Therefore, Palestine’s right to exist there trumps Israel’s.

  9. LondonBob says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Israel and Judea were quite separate, mostly hostile, countries. Judea has no claim on Israel.

    It is important to recall that the tribe of the Levites was not the same people known to history as the ‘Israelites.’ Reed quotes a Dr. Kastein, an avid Zionist, who remarked that “[After the death of Solomon, ~ 937 BC] the two states [Israel and Judah] had no more in common, for good or evil, than any two other countries with a common frontier. From time to time they waged war against each other or made treaties, but they were entirely separate. The Israelites ceased to believe that they had a destiny apart from their neighbors and King Jeroboam made separation from Judah as complete in the religious as in the political sense… [Then, the Judahites] … decided that they were destined to develop as a race apart…. they demanded an order of existence fundamentally different from that of the people about them. These were differences which allowed of no process of assimilation to others. They demanded separation, absolute differentiation.”

    Jesus and Israel live on in the Palestinians, the phasrisees and their lies in the Rabbis.

  10. Bill P says:

    I think you’re underestimating the potential reaction to disturbing graves in the area. Messing around with physical remains and burial grounds is a much bigger taboo in Judaism than in Christianity. I can easily imagine some violent reactions to attempts to dig up Jewish bones for analysis.

  11. For instance, modern Los Angeles has a whole bunch of cemeteries, each with its own demographic twist.

    Tenney Frank used the changing names on burial markers to explain the long deterioration and quick fall of the Roman Empire.

  12. LondonBob says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    By the time of that achievement of 458 BC, many centuries after any possible period when Moses may have lived, much had happened in Canaan. The nomadic Habiru, supplanting the native Canaanites by penetration, intermarriage, settlement or conquest, had thrown off a tribe called the Ben Yisrael, or Children of Israel, which had split into a number of tribes, very loosely confederated and often at war with each other. The main body of these tribes, the Israelites, held the north of Canaan. In the south, isolated and surrounded by native Canaanitish peoples, a tribe called Judah took shape. This was the tribe from which the racial creed and such words as “Judaism,” “Jewish” and “Jew” in the course of centuries emerged.

    From the moment when it first appears as an entity this tribe of Judah has a strange look. It was always cut off, and never got on well with its neighbours. Its origins are mysterious. It seems from the beginning, with its ominous name, somehow to have been set apart, rather than to have been “chosen.” The Levitical Scriptures include it among the tribes of Israel, and as the others mingled themselves with mankind this would leave it the last claimant to the rewards promised by Jehovah to “the chosen people.” However, even this claim seems to be false, for the Jewish Encyclopaedia impartially says that Judah was “in all likelihood a non-Israelitish tribe.”

    This tribe with the curious air was the one which set out into the future saddled with the doctrine drawn up by the Levites, namely, that it was Jehovah’s “chosen people” and, when it had done “all my statutes and judgments,” would inherit a promised land and dominion over all peoples.

    Among these “statutes and judgments” as the Levites finally edited them appeared, repeatedly, the commands, “utterly destroy,” “pull down,” “root out.” Judah was destined to produce a nation dedicated to destruction.

    The Chief Rabbi of the British Empire in 1918, the Very Rev. J.H. Hertz, in answer to an enquiry on this point said explicitly, “The people known at present as Jews are descendants of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin with a certain number of descendants of the tribe of Levi.” This statement makes perfectly clear that “Israel” had no part in what has become Judaism (no authority, Judaist or other, would support the claim made to blood-descent from Judah, for the Jews of today, but this is of little account).

  13. I shudder to think what this will unleash.

    Will the Khazar theory be vindicated?

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    , @anonymous
  14. Lot says:

    “Europeans entering the stage of written history under the name Sea Peoples”

    The Minoans are chopped liver then? They drew some fine dolphins for 1800BC!

    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
  15. gcochran says:
    @nebulafox

    c. 340 BC: Aristotle, Meteorology, “Again if, as is fabled, there is a lake in Palestine, such that if you bind a man or beast and throw it in it floats and does not sink, this would bear out what we have said. They say that this lake is so bitter and salt that no fish live in it and that if you soak clothes in it and shake them it cleans them.”

  16. Mr. Anon says:

    One thing I am certain of: Me and my people have no connection with that land. So leave me and my country the Hell out of it.

  17. Mr. Anon says:

    I had always assumed that the term “Palestine” came from the Pelasgians, i.e. the Sea Peoples, who themselves were some kind of proto-Greeks.

  18. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @gcochran

    Wikipedia:

    An Arabic compendium of Meteorology, called al-‘Athar al-`Ulwiyyah (Arabic: الآثار العلوية‎) and produced c. 800 CE by the Antiochene scholar Yahya ibn al-Bitriq, was widely circulated among Muslim scholars over the following centuries.[1] This was translated into Latin by Gerard of Cremona in the 12th century – and by this means, during the Twelfth-century Renaissance, entered the Western European world of medieval scholasticism.[2] Gerard’s “old translation” (vetus translatio) was superseded by an improved text by William of Moerbeke, the nova translatio, which was widely read, as it survives in numerous manuscripts; it received commentary by Thomas Aquinas and was often printed during the Renaissance.[3]

    Is it possible “Palestine” was an anachronistic term used by this Yahya ibn al-Bitriq fellow?

    • Replies: @gcochran
  19. Paul says:

    My understanding is that the Jews came from the Arabian Peninsula to the land of Canaan (Palestine), where the Canaanites (Palestinians) lived.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @GW
  20. Anonymous[256] • Disclaimer says:

    The Samaritans – yes, they still do exist – an ancient, highly endogamous sect indigenous to the region, are said to be the best modern proxies of the genotypes of the ‘biblical Israelites’.

    Some authorities assert that the modern Ashkenazi are an admixed group resulting from a classical era Hebrew population and southern Europeans – a southern Italian or Greek like population, certainly something Aegean and Mediterranean. This accords to what we know of the historical origins of the Ashkenazi, namely classical Rome and Italy were central to their formation and diffusion – they came to the Rhineland, their secondary homeland under the aegis of the Roman Empire. From Germany they diffused to central and eastern Europe, hence Yiddish is a corrupted German.
    Strangely enough, recent work by geneticists have found a ‘typical’ 20% or so ‘Steppe’ (hence ‘Aryan’) component amongst the Ashkenazi. It is surmised that this is ancient provenance, dating from the pre classical era and is related to the Hittites, Mitanni etc.

    The ‘Khazar hypothesis’ of Koestler et al, is trash.

    • Replies: @dearieme
    , @dearieme
  21. @LondonBob

    And then Israel was conquered by the Assyrians and ceased to exist. The Israelites were absorbed into the rest of humanity, while the Jews (the denizens of Judah) lived on as a distinct people. The proper take on this if you are Christian is that humanity has inherited its “chosen-ness” status from the absorption of the Israelites, and are thus no less “chosen” than the Jews.

  22. The hottest news in genetics since central Europeans traced their roots to the Aryans.

  23. utu says:

    Localizing Ashkenazic Jews to Primeval Villages in the Ancient Iranian Lands of Ashkenaz
    https://academic.oup.com/gbe/article/8/4/1132/2574015

    The Yiddish language is over 1,000 years old and incorporates German, Slavic, and Hebrew elements. The prevalent view claims Yiddish has a German origin, whereas the opposing view posits a Slavic origin with strong Iranian and weak Turkic substrata. One of the major difficulties in deciding between these hypotheses is the unknown geographical origin of Yiddish speaking Ashkenazic Jews (AJs). An analysis of 393 Ashkenazic, Iranian, and mountain Jews and over 600 non-Jewish genomes demonstrated that Greeks, Romans, Iranians, and Turks exhibit the highest genetic similarity with AJs. The Geographic Population Structure analysis localized most AJs along major primeval trade routes in northeastern Turkey adjacent to primeval villages with names that may be derived from “Ashkenaz.” Iranian and mountain Jews were localized along trade routes on the Turkey’s eastern border. Loss of maternal haplogroups was evident in non-Yiddish speaking AJs. Our results suggest that AJs originated from a Slavo-Iranian confederation, which the Jews call “Ashkenazic” (i.e., “Scythian”), though these Jews probably spoke Persian and/or Ossete. This is compatible with linguistic evidence suggesting that Yiddish is a Slavic language created by Irano-Turko-Slavic Jewish merchants along the Silk Roads as a cryptic trade language, spoken only by its originators to gain an advantage in trade. Later, in the 9th century, Yiddish underwent relexification by adopting a new vocabulary that consists of a minority of German and Hebrew and a majority of newly coined Germanoid and Hebroid elements that replaced most of the original Eastern Slavic and Sorbian vocabularies, while keeping the original grammars intact.

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    , @Jack D
  24. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Some decades ago, it was Jordanian king Hussein who stated that there was no such thing as a distinct Palestinian people (or tribe, much less a race), and that the Palestinians were mostly Arabian, Jordanian, as well as of Syrian descent.

    It was actually Golda Meyer who said that. And even if it were true, King Hussein would never publicly say such a thing, since that would give the Palestinians a claim on his land. (This is a sore subject in Jordan, as the PLO tried to overthrow his own father in 1970.)

    4,000 yrs ago, there was no such thing as a Palestinian people per se in the modern sense of what the term means right now.

    Maybe not. But then, 4000 years ago there were no ‘Ashkenazic’ Jews either.

  25. Gordo says:
    @Bill P

    I can easily imagine some violent reactions to attempts to dig up Jewish bones for analysis.

    They happily dig them up for new apartment blocks.

    Religious when it suits.

    • Replies: @Jim bob Lassiter
  26. IHTG says:

    Yair is tweeting with his father’s account again.

  27. Why do I suspect that if Bibi is right, certain commenters here will be talking about the reliability of DNA evidence like a defense attorney with a guilty client?

  28. This God fella’s a heckuva realtor.

  29. Jamie_NYC says:

    “L.A. even has its own Serbian Cemetery, which could be really misleading about the general population of L.A. if you happened to start digging there.”

    Misleading – I think not! The Serbs have an expression “Serbia all the way to Tokyo!” (“Srbija do Tokija!”)

  30. @Bill P

    Yet they happily trot out fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls whenever it suits their purposes. The rest of the time (and the rest of the scrolls) they’re kept hidden away lest they be touched by the Unclean.

    Even the time of their ‘discovery’ coincides almost perfectly with the creation of that real estate venture called Israel.

  31. anon[722] • Disclaimer says:

    That paper about the Philistines found that they were a mixture of Levantines and Southern Europeans. Of course, that’s what the Ashkenazim, including Mr. Netanyahu (né Mileikowsky), are, too.

  32. Carol says:

    I thought the origin of the Sea Peoples was still unknown.

    Except that they came by sea of course.

  33. Art Deco says:

    Israeli Jews or Palestinians?

    The term ‘Palestinian’ is a political delineation that wasn’t the mode among Arabs in that region prior to about 1968. You wouldn’t be investigating ‘Palestinians’ v. ‘Jews’, but settled Levantine Arabs v. Bedouin v. Egyptian Arabs v. Ashkenazic Jews v. Sephardic Jews v. Mizrahi Jews.

  34. Art Deco says:
    @R.G. Camara

    Will the Khazar theory be vindicated?

    No.

  35. Art Deco says:

    Are we sure that “Philistine” and “Palestine” aren’t related?

    What does this mean? The British government assembled three Ottoman subprefectures, modified the exterior boundaries some, and called the territory ‘Palestine’ after the name of a series of Roman / Byzantine provinces in that area. The name hadn’t been used in about 1,300 years and bore no connection to the local Arabophone population. During the mandatory period, the name ‘Palestine’ was usually used by Jewish institutions (e.g. the Jewish Agency for Palestine; the Palestine Post).

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  36. Art Deco says:
    @Colin Wright

    The descendants of the ancient Israelites are today’s Palestinians. Of course they are.

    Why do academic research when someone can just ask you?

  37. bucky says:

    Ultimately it comes down to who has more willpower, the Jews or the Palestinians, in defining the region and history there.

    Right now I would say that the Jews have the upper hand.

    These theoretical musings are another game in that struggle of definition.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @BigDickNick
  38. anonymous[139] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    The descendants of the ancient Israelites are today’s Palestinians. Of course they are.

    Wow you’re pretty confident there. I wouldn’t be so sure, if I were you.

    There is already proof of genetic continuity between ancient and modern Jews in some Y-chromosome lines such as the Aaronite and Kohenite. That and the historical record is pretty clear that Palestinian Arabs largely descend from migrants from Southern Arabia who arrived following the Islamic conquest – they even brag about that aspect of their family lineages (it is high status in the Arab world) when not performing for gullible anti-Israel Westerners.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Colin Wright
    , @Anon
  39. anonymous[139] • Disclaimer says:
    @R.G. Camara

    No that has already been ruled out by existing genetic studies.

  40. Anonymous[137] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bill P

    Messing around with physical remains and burial grounds is a much bigger taboo in Judaism than in Christianity.

    Citation needed.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
  41. Anonymous[137] • Disclaimer says:
    @LondonBob

    . . . and, when it had done “all my statutes and judgments,” would inherit a promised land and dominion over all peoples.

    Among these “statutes and judgments” as the Levites finally edited them appeared, repeatedly, the commands, “utterly destroy,” “pull down,” “root out.” Judah was destined to produce a nation dedicated to destruction.

    Source?

    • Replies: @Craig Nelsen
  42. Anonymous[137] • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous

    There is already proof of genetic continuity between ancient and modern Jews in some Y-chromosome lines such as the Aaronite and Kohenite.

    No there isn’t.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @Neil Templeton
  43. Anonymous[137] • Disclaimer says:
    @bucky

    Ultimately it comes down to who has more willpower, the Jews or the Palestinians, in defining the region and history there.

    The Palestinians would rather move to the United States and Europe, which are what the Jews are attempting to trade to them.

  44. Anonymous[137] • Disclaimer says:
    @Paul

    My understanding is that the Jews came from the Arabian Peninsula to the land of Canaan (Palestine), where the Canaanites (Palestinians) lived.

    The Jews came from North Africa and Europe to the land of Palestine, where the Palestinians lived.

  45. FPD72 says:

    “Palestine” from Latin Palestina (name of a Roman province), from Greek Palaistine (Herodotus), from Hebrew Pelesheth “Philistia, land of the Philistines.” Revived as an official political territorial name in 1920 with the British mandate.

    But the use of Palestine in post-Roman times is evident from the small town of Palestine, IL, which gained its name when French explorer Jean Lamotte first gazed upon this region in 1678. He gave it the name Palestine, as it reminded him of Palestine, the biblical land of milk and honey.

  46. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Art Deco

    Netanyahu’s playing a little trick here, pretending the Palestinians are literally Philistines (what they call themselves in Arabic). In reality, I suspect the Palestinians are using that term in its geographic sense: “We were here in the Ottoman province of Palestine before modern Zionism”, not “We’re the descendants of the ancient non-Semitic seafaring people”.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Jack D
    , @Art Deco
    , @Anon
  47. @utu

    Yiddish is a Slavic language

    No, that is an absurd assertion. Yiddish is transparently a dialect of German, and 90% mutually comprehensible with standard German. Eastern Yiddish dialects did, over the centuries, incorporate a lot of Polish/Ukrainian vocabulary, phonology and perhaps some elements of the Slavic verbal aspect system, but are still very clearly “German”. Western Yiddish dialects are basically just German with simplified (colloquial) grammar and lots of Hebrew vocabulary.

    • Replies: @utu
  48. dearieme says:
    @Anonymous

    The ‘Khazar hypothesis’ of Koestler et al, is trash.

    No, it’s not trash; it’s merely wrong. But much of what has been quoted, or guessed at, by commenters above is “trash”. Guessing at the history of the word Palestine is plain silly when there’s a WKPD page that explains it. Try this:

    The term “Peleset” (transliterated from hieroglyphs as P-r-s-t) is found in five inscriptions referring to a neighboring people or land starting from circa 1150 BC during the Twentieth Dynasty of Egypt. The first known mention is at the temple at Medinet Habu which refers to the Peleset among those who fought with Egypt in Ramesses III’s reign, and the last known is 300 years later on Padiiset’s Statue. The Assyrians called the same region “Palashtu/Palastu” or “Pilistu”, beginning with Adad-nirari III in the Nimrud Slab in c. 800 BC through to an Esarhaddon treaty more than a century later. Neither the Egyptian nor the Assyrian sources provided clear regional boundaries for the term.

  49. Of course, emotional investment in this clash of two nationalisms is huge. But, of course- ancestry is not identity.

    For instance, this Aussie-Peruvian chick could have stronger claims to belong to Western world- although she is, I think, 49% American Indian:

    On the other hand, John Walker Lindh, infamous Islamic convert: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Walker_Lindh does not belong to any Western world country, although he is, I suppose, 100% of European origin.

    In some cases, nurture trumps nature. Regardless of the results. Anyway, this is not something completely new….
    https://africasacountry.com/2012/09/the-white-man-comment

    If you missed it, in June 2012 Yishai, responding to criticism of Israel’s treatment of African migrants, claimed that: “Muslims that arrive here do not even believe that this country belongs to us, to the white man.”

  50. dearieme says:
    @Anonymous

    The ‘Khazar hypothesis’ of Koestler et al, is trash.

    No, it’s not trash; it’s merely wrong. But much of what has been quoted, or guessed at, by commenters above is “trash”. Guessing at the history of the word Palestine is plain silly when there’s a WKPD page that explains it. Try this:

    The term “Peleset” (transliterated from hieroglyphs as P-r-s-t) is found in five inscriptions referring to a neighboring people or land starting from circa 1150 BC during the Twentieth Dynasty of Egypt. The first known mention is at the temple at Medinet Habu which refers to the Peleset among those who fought with Egypt in Ramesses III’s reign, and the last known is 300 years later on Padiiset’s Statue. The Assyrians called the same region “Palashtu/Palastu” or “Pilistu”, beginning with Adad-nirari III in the Nimrud Slab in c. 800 BC through to an Esarhaddon treaty more than a century later. Neither the Egyptian nor the Assyrian sources provided clear regional boundaries for the term.

  51. Jack D says:
    @utu

    Putting aside that Yiddish is more German than anything else, linguistics and genetics are two completely different things – for example, Latinos are linguistically Iberian but genetically Amerindian. The people of the UK are largely a Celtic people speaking a Germanic language. And now that we have DNA evidence, indirect approaches such as attempting to infer genetic background from language are a waste of time.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Jim bob Lassiter
  52. In thought Abraham was from somewhere on the Arabian Peninsula. Either way, ancient Jews weren’t the first people in the place they call their Holy Land, and it’s more likely that Palestinians have a link to the earlier inhabitants of the region than Jews from all over the world.

    One thing that is very obvious in Israel is that Israeli Jews are a collection of many different peoples who look very different from one another, while most Palestinians fit a general type that looks Middle Eastern or Mediterranean.

    Whatever claim Jews as a group can make about descent from the inhabitants of ancient Israel, individual Jews generally carry lots of admixture from the places that their ancestors inhabited since leaving the area, if their faces reveal anything about their DNA.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  53. Jack D says:

    It is silly to think that scientific findings of “who was here first” can have any bearing on political questions. Assume for the sake of argument that the Jews are really a bunch of Europeans or Khazars or whatever and that the “Palestinians” are the true blue original inhabitants of the territory. Does everyone in Israel throw in the towel and pack their bags? Hell no, no more than Americans are going to give America back to the Indians. Not gonna happen. Israel, like every other country, will continue to exist for so long as its government can defend it against all invaders. All “origin stories” are mythical to one degree or another and all are irrelevant to the current reality.

  54. Anonymous[354] • Disclaimer says:

    If the Palestinians are Europeans let them go back to Europe. (Maybe something can be arranged with Frau Merkel?)

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  55. utu says:
    @Peter Akuleyev

    “Yiddish underwent relexification by adopting a new vocabulary that consists of a minority of German and Hebrew and a majority of newly coined Germanoid and Hebroid elements…”

    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
  56. utu says:
    @Jack D

    “now that we have DNA evidence” – No, we do not. You can’t trust this evidence. It is too political.

  57. @Gordo

    Or casinos and movie studios.

  58. Shmendrix says:

    No discussion about the origins of the “Palestinians” is complete without this gem from a Hamas minister:
    https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-minister-interior-and-national-security-fathi-hammad-slams-egypt-over-fuel-shortage-gaza

  59. Svevlad says:

    I had to look up that Serbian cemetery in LA. I wouldn’t be surprised to find it in Chicago, where there’s a ton of us.

    And when I looked upon the map I realized – only in America can you find a Serbian and Chinese cemeteries right next to each other, separated by a mere freeway

  60. nebulafox says:
    @Jack D

    Bismarck had it very right when he said politics was more along to an art form than an exact science.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  61. Shmendrix says:

    Another fun fact: The word “Philistines” (פלשתים) from whence the Romans came up with “Palestine” comes from the same Hebrew root (פלש) as the word for “Invaders”.

    • Replies: @International Jew
  62. @Lot

    It’s obviously unknown but I always figured the Minoans for being more of a middle eastern culture. The bull worship and Moloch like minotaur god seems very middle eastern and the linear B script looks more like later middle eastern scripts than indo-european ones to me. Also to my knowledge while sometimes depicted as pale white skinned and sometimes as dark bronze, they were only ever depicted with dark hair and eyes, I’m not aware of any artistic depictions of red/yellow hair or green/blue eyes prior to the arrival of Hellenes.

    • Replies: @Lot
  63. JimB says:

    I dunno. I thought it was established that Judaism was originally established by 12 Syrian men 4000 years ago but at some point in history the matrilineal line was used to establish Jewish identity, likely for practical reasons, since in ancient times you could only know with certainty who your mother is. That does mean however that there are many Christian and Muslim men with Mediterranean ancestry who can now prove direct descent from the Hebrews of the Old Testament.

  64. @Jack D

    “Hell no, no more than Americans are going to give America back to the Indians. ”

    Depends on your definition of “Indians”. It would appear that we are indeed doing just that on “our” current nominal geopolitical southern border.

  65. @anonymous

    ‘…That and the historical record is pretty clear that Palestinian Arabs largely descend from migrants from Southern Arabia who arrived following the Islamic conquest…’

    Just the opposite is true, of course. While the historical record does show considerable movement from Arabia to Iraq in the wake of the conquest, there was very little demographic change in Palestine. A few elite families appeared; that was it.

    What evidence there is, on the contrary, suggests that most — if not all — of the Jewish population of Palestine stayed right where it was through about the eighth-ninth century, when Islam ‘opened the books’ to converts, so to speak. At that point, the Jews of Palestine became the Muslims of Palestine.

    Today, they’re called ‘Palestinians.’

    • Replies: @Not Raul
  66. @Jack D

    ‘…Does everyone in Israel throw in the towel and pack their bags? Hell no, no more than Americans are going to give America back to the Indians…’

    Actually, you’re wrong there. Even as it is, with legally guaranteed status as the master race and massive subsidies from the United States inflating their standard of living, an incredible 40% of Israeli Jews say they would emigrate if only they could.

    So pull the plug and facilitate departure. The Zionists will exit Palestine of their own accord. It’s not their country. All we have to do is make sure there are planes waiting for them at the airport.

  67. @Jack D

    ” And now that we have DNA evidence, indirect approaches such as attempting to infer genetic background from language are a waste of time.”

    You were spot on until you got to your last line. An attuned and discerning ear coupled with some basic knowledge of Latin American society can, with a fairly high degree of accuracy, listen (sight unseen) to a person from Latin America speak and get a pretty good idea (from accent, grammar, diction, vocabulary, idioms) about just how much or how little “Indio” they are. I didn’t say 100 per cent.

  68. gcochran says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    Used plenty in Hellenistic times. Earlier too; Herodotus

    • Replies: @Logan
  69. Archeologists are so politically biased.

    150 years from now, when archeologists discover ruins of ancient, US public schools, they’ll assert that our civilization must have been a highly educated one.

    Whenever I read about one of these decade-long, sponsored, archeo/paleo/-logical/etc. digs, I can’t help thinking that the profster who runs it is milking the continuing grant for all it’s worth, and using the time away from home to lay his adoring graduate students.

  70. The question is largely irrelevant, and it would make no difference if the genetic evidence had instead revealed Ashkenazis to be Khazars and they admitted as much. We’re all sitting on stolen land, from the original colonies to California. The Bantus aren’t native to Botswana if you go back far enough. Even Southeast Asia was taken from the Australoids 3-5,000 years ago. I guess you could propose some time period when stolen land can still be claimed by its original inhabitants. But keep in mind America hasn’t had the West Coast for very long.

    Even if the land was stolen, whom was it stolen from? Many of the Palestinians are clearly not indigenous, though some are. It’s like trying to determine slave reparations for someone that is half Black and half White. Also, how do we determine the original inhabitants? That region has changed hands many times with a lot of gene flow in and out.

    Most importantly, this shouldn’t concern us. I agree that Israel shouldn’t get any support, but neither should any of the other peoples in the Middle East. Let them sort it out. Our involvement is absurd. Maybe the Palestinians have some legitimate claims and maybe they will be crushed by a vastly superior force, but you could say the same for hundreds of ethnic minorities scattered all around the world.

    I find the question interesting, but only for historical curiosity. If you’re going by the Jews of the Roman-Jewish wars/revolt, my money would be on some of the small, indigenous Levantine groups or the Palestinian Christians as having the closest genetic affinity. On the other hand, the typical Ashkenazi is probably closer to the original Jews than many of the Muslim (ie Arab) Palestinians that arrived in the region relatively recently. I’m not an expert on the topic so I have no strong opinions. (Other than the US completely withdrawing all support in all forms and all of its military from every single country and people in that entire region).

  71. NYMOM says:

    This issue could very quickly become another “sticky wicket” as Mr. Bean used to say…

  72. Anonymous[249] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    “We were here in the Ottoman province of Palestine before modern Zionism”, not “We’re the descendants of the ancient non-Semitic seafaring people”

    Why do you add the qualifier “modern”? Is it important they distinguish “modern Zionism” from another Zionism?

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  73. Anonymous[249] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    It is silly to think that scientific findings of “who was here first” can have any bearing on political questions.

    What you are saying is that “who was here first” is irrelevant to moral and legal claims on property.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  74. Anonymous[249] • Disclaimer says:
    @nebulafox

    Bismarck had it very right when he said politics was more along to an art form than an exact science.

    Non sequitur. You clearly didn’t understand his post.

  75. Jack D says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    There was no Ottoman province of Palestine. Most of the current territory of Israel was covered by 3 different Sanjaks – the Sanjaks of Acre, Nablus and Jerusalem, all of which were administratively part of the Province of Damascus and ultimately ruled from Istanbul. There was no such thing as a “Palestinian” identity – either people identified with their Sanjak or they considered themselves to be Syrian Arabs and/or Ottoman citizens. If the Arab armies had succeeded in ’48 or ’67 or ’73 then the territory of Israel would have been split between Jordan and Syria and Egypt and no one would have said a word. “Palestine” in the sense of a separate national identity for the Arabs of this area is largely a modern (post 1948) invention although the British created a “Mandate of Palestine” in the wake of their breakup of the Ottoman Empire. That’s OK – most national identities are “fake” to one degree or another and many European national identities are not much older.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    , @Colin Wright
  76. One thing we’ve learned through all these genetic analyses is that near total population replacement is pretty rare. The Aryans nearly did it in Northern Europe, Europeans did it in parts of the Americas and Australia, few other cases. But mostly what you have is moderate admixture, propagation of conquering Y chromosomes and culture replacement, such as with the Turks, Anglo-Saxons, Spaniards and such. The A-rabs invaded a place that was already densely settled and ripe for taxation. I’ll bet they hardly affected the autosomal genetics and that Palestinians are 80%+ descended from the Biblical tribes who lived there.

    • Replies: @Anon
  77. @Jack D

    It is silly to think that scientific findings of “who was here first” can have any bearing on political questions. Assume for the sake of argument that the Jews are really a bunch of Europeans or Khazars or whatever and that the “Palestinians” are the true blue original inhabitants of the territory. Does everyone in Israel throw in the towel and pack their bags? Hell no, no more than Americans are going to give America back to the Indians.

    That will happen the day the Russians hand their territory east of the Urals back to their original inhabitants. Or the Chinese hand south China back to their original Austronesian inhabitants (i.e. the Thais, the Malaysians and the Indonesians). Or the Thais, Malaysians and the Indonesians hand their current lands over to their original Melanesian inhabitants.

  78. I’m more interested in whether the ancient Romans were related to the Trojans. Can we figure that out? And I’d love to see know how much Northern European blood the Ancient Greeks had. There has to be some reason for the decline of Greece from fountainhead of Western Civilization, to Greece circa 1830.

    • Replies: @International Jew
  79. In thought Abraham was from somewhere on the Arabian Peninsula. Either way, ancient Jews weren’t the first people in the place they call their Holy Land, and it’s more likely that Palestinians have a link to the earlier inhabitants of the region than Jews from all over the world.

    One thing that is very obvious in Israel is that Israeli Jews are a collection of many different peoples who look very different from one another, while most Palestinians fit a general type that looks Middle Eastern or Mediterranean.

    Whatever claim Jews as a group can make about descent from the inhabitants of ancient Israel, individual Jews generally carry lots of admixture from the places that their ancestors inhabited. If their faces reveal anything about their DNA, then Jews are a very mixed group of people.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    , @Anon
  80. Steve, I like the fact that you use my term for archaeology: grave robbing. To me, the question of which ethnicity has the right to Palestine is answerable without digging up a single skeleton. Which ethnic group came there from Europe 71 or so years ago and were given permission by other outsiders to move in and displace/slaughter the inhabitants?

    That group is the one with no right to Palestine. To me it’s one of those no-brainer type answers.

  81. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “Translation: Jerusalem, by right of history, belongs to Israel.”

    By that standard, Arizona belongs to the several Apache tribes and some other tribes who were there before the Spanish came. The name was laid on the territory by an outside empire and the land was taken by people who originated in Europe. That’s the way you see it, right?

  82. Gordo says:
    @Jack D

    Israel, like every other country, will continue to exist for so long as its government can defend it against all invaders.

    Governments need both the ability and the will to defend against invaders, the U.K. government lacks the will even though it has the ability to deploy 215 2.5 MT nukes.

  83. Jack D says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    That’s absolutely right – you can do it if you can get away with it and make it stick. You don’t even have to have lived there before – you can just pick out any house (pick a nice one) and do it. The Russians never ruled Kaliningrad ever prior to 1945 but it’s theirs now.

    If OTOH, you don’t have the muscle to make it stick, then it’s not a wise move. That’s how it has always worked and always will.

  84. MrLiberty says:

    Never ask a question unless you are fully prepared for the answer.

    If you ask the right questions, you never have to worry about the answer.

    Which path do you honestly think the Israelis will take. They have everything to lose.

  85. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous

    So if Ashkenazi Jews are not (partly) Middle Eastern they must be fully European. This is strange because when they were in Europe people kept telling them that they were not European and should go back to Palestine. But now that they are back in Palestine they are supposed to go back to Europe.

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
  86. @bucky

    Arabs are like the middle school bullies of ethnicities. Good at beating up on weaklings and people incapable of fighting back. Once they encounter a group that actually is even okay at defending itself they are revealed to not really be very tough at all.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    , @bucky
  87. Art Deco says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    Netanyahu’s playing a little trick here, pretending the Palestinians are literally Philistines

    He is? He says “There’s no connection between the ancient Philistines & the modern Palestinians, whose ancestors came from the Arabian Peninsula to the Land of Israel thousands of years later.”

    Now, he is identifying the Arab population that lived in Mandatory Palestine in 1946 with Arabian populations, and that’s a dubious assertion (though the language and religion of that population in 1946 most certainly did arrive from Arabia).

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @Dave Pinsen
  88. @Digital Samizdat

    tons of arabs have admitted palestinian identity is a recently invented concept. It was basically invented in reaction to zionism. Just read up on “palestinian nationalism” it didn’t exist before theodr herzl. I don’t think this invalidates their desire to be a country today though or invalidates the fact that they have had tons of property seized by israel.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  89. Jack D says:
    @nebulafox

    For all we know, that might have included Jews, though I doubt it, to some extent

    It’s well known among the Arabs of Judea and Samaria which clans are descended from Jewish converts. Some of them even retain anachronistic customs that are linked to Judaism such as lighting candles on Friday night.

    When a land is conquered by invaders, sometimes the invader kills or expels the entire population, especially the males, but in other cases they allow them (especially the females) to stay and adopt the religion and customs of the conquerors. And other times (supposedly this was required but not always observed under Islam in the case of conquered Christians and Jews) you are allowed to stay and keep your religion and culture as a subject people. There is no general rule.

  90. Art Deco says:
    @Digital Samizdat

    There have been self-conscious Jewish communities in Europe for millennia. There were no ‘Palestinians’ in 1946. There were Arabs, there were Syrians, there were adherents to particular lineages and particular localities. There were no Palestinians. And however you define that population today, one thing hits you: they don’t take an interest in self-government no matter what is the posited context. Some do, but for most it isn’t a priority. The priority is vengeance.

    • Agree: International Jew
  91. Jack D says:
    @Art Deco

    It’s possible that some of the Arabs who live (or lived until 1948) in the territory of modern Israel have been there all along since time immemorial but a lot of them also migrated from other parts of the Ottoman Empire such as Damascus or Cairo, just as some of the white people in Indiana have been there since the first white settlers and others moved from other states within the US. There were no firm borders and people moved back and forth for various reasons (not to mention the Bedouins who had no fixed abode).

    Even if you could find some pure-blooded Hoosiers whose every ancestor has been there since day 1, this doesn’t make Indiana a separate nation. “Palestinians” are just a subtype of Greater Syrian Arab and would not (except for the intentional discrimination they received at the hands of their governments) be out of place anywhere within the region any more than displaced Hoosiers are distinct from Ohioans. Of course now, after 70 years, a sort of “Palestinian” identity has gelled but it didn’t really exist before.

    • Replies: @Daniel H
    , @Art Deco
  92. @Digital Samizdat

    Never said he said it publicly. But, ca. 4,000 yrs ago, there were the Hebrews who are definitely the direct modern ancestors of the modern Jews. Palestinians is a mid. 20th century word (in the sense of being a distinct people/tribe). If anything, they’re mostly Arabs. But then, Arabia isn’t in Jerusalem and modern day Israel. If they stated that they were Arabian, then most folks would state “Then why don’t they all simply go immigrate to Saudi Arabia where they’re from?”

    Exactly. Why don’t they indeed? Or, maybe because the Saudi royal family doesn’t want them in their land. Apparently more trouble than they’re worth.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  93. @Digital Samizdat

    There are other Jews than just Ashkenazi, they’ve been living continuously in the area known today as Israel for close to ca.4k yrs. Therefore, the argument stands. It’s their land. Period.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  94. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Art Deco

    He is? He says “There’s no connection between the ancient Philistines & the modern Palestinians, whose ancestors came from the Arabian Peninsula to the Land of Israel thousands of years later.”

    He isn’t then. I was wrong.

  95. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Jack D

    There was no Ottoman province of Palestine.

    My mistake.

  96. Daniel H says:

    Conversion of gentiles to Judaism in Israel is entirely in the hands of Orthodox Jewish Rabbis. Luke Ford reports that the rabbis categorically refuse to consider any request by Palestinians to convert to Judaism. The numbers involved are not inconsiderable.

  97. @Buzz Mohawk

    You’d have a valid claim if said parents and grandparents of yours were forced out of their homes. If, on the other hand, they left voluntarily and sold their homes in voluntary transactions, then you’d be overreaching if you reclaimed their property today.

    Now which of those two possibilities applies in your case?

  98. nebulafox says:
    @Jack D

    True. And if we talk about about the Jewish Arabs in Arabia proper before the conquest, one could make the argument that they, like others, didn’t transition to Islam immediately because “Islam” in the sense that we know it didn’t coalesce until well after the initial wave of conquests. Jihadis ensure that scholars aren’t as eager to talk about the real origins of Islam as Christianity or Judaism, but like any other religion, it took time to mature and truly form: and formed as much due to immediate political realities as theology.

    Until Abd al-Malik, the Arabs defined their superiority over the former Romans in ethnic and military terms more than religious ones. This is not to say that the latter was wholly absent, but even this took on an ethnic coloration-the Arabs saw themselves as picking up Abraham’s legacy of “pure” monotheism. When al-Malik came to power, this began to change, for a host of reasons.

  99. However the genomic issue is resolved, the political implication will be good for the Jews.

    If it turns out that today’s Jews are closer to the ancient Israelites, then case closed.

    If, alternatively, it’s today’s Palestinians, then on the safe assumption that today’s Jews are still strongly connected (say 40-50-60% by descent) to the ancients, the clear implications are:

    1. that the Palestinians should welcome Jewish aliyah as an ingathering of their own brothers;

    2. that the Palestinians should recover their true identity and convert back to Judaism; and

    3. that the Palestinians should become Israeli patriots taking Israel’s side in any conflict with the (non-Israelite) Arabs of the surrounding states of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    , @nebulafox
  100. Andy says:

    A good number of Jews have relatively fair hair or blue eyes so they have non trivial European ancestry – there might have been a good deal of intermarriage and conversion to Judaism when Jews were dispersed throughout the Roman Empire before the rise of Christianity made that haram. So it’s probably not very wise for Jews to go for the DNA argument.

  101. nebulafox says:
    @gcochran

    Hmm… interesting. So the Greek speaking world did call it Palestine instead of Judea.

    But this doesn’t necessarily mean I’m wrong when it came to Roman motivations for picking that particular name to replace Judea. It is too much of a match with Hadrian’s dream of a Hellenized east, free of those irritating, forever rebelling monotheists who stood in the way: and after the bloodshed of the revolt, with his plans disrupted, he was probably in the mood to kick the Jews when they were down. Showily renaming the province with the Greek name, if it was derived from the Philistines, would have been perfect. Jerusalem was also renamed: Aelia Capitolina.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @kaganovitch
  102. Logan says:
    @LondonBob

    [After the death of Solomon, ~ 937 BC] the two states [Israel and Judah] had no more in common, for good or evil, than any two other countries with a common frontier.

    Well, that’s a pretty stupid statement.

    The states of Israel and Judah spoke the same language, worshiped the same God (some of the time anyway) and were essentially different tribes of the same ethnic group.

    Their relationship was more like that of Austria and Prussia before 1866, two states within the one German nation.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  103. Logan says:
    @gcochran

    Even earlier. A similar and probably ancestral term from Egypt around 1170 BC.

  104. LondonBob says:
    @International Jew

    How can the Palestinians convert back to Judaism? Rabbinical Judaism was invented by the pharisees during the Babylonian episode.

    • Replies: @International Jew
  105. Logan says:

    I gotta admit I find the spectacle of Americans arguing about who has the “ancestral right” to this land utterly hilarious.

    Both sides have been, or at least claim to have been, occupying this land more than 1000 years before Englishmen began settling in N. America. Parts of “America” were taken by force from the original inhabitants less than 150 years ago, usually in direct violation of solemn treaties, and this seldom bothers most of us.

    Many of us are descended from people who arrived here about the same time as Jews started returning in numbers to Israel. But somehow we have a right to our land, and they don’t.

    Americans can be remarkably bolivious, as my daughter used to say.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @Colin Wright
  106. @gcochran

    c. 340 BC: Aristotle, Meteorology, “Again if, as is fabled, there is a lake in Palestine (…)

    The above is of course an English translation. What word was used for “Palestine” in Aristotle’s original Greek?

    • Replies: @Jack D
  107. Jack D says:
    @nebulafox

    Keep in mind that by the time that Hadrian renamed Judea as Palestina, the Philistines had been gone for 0ver 500 years. So the name was an intentional throwback (and an effort to erase all the intervening centuries of Jewish history).

    Also keep in mind that Palestine was most often paired up with Syria and thought of as a single entity and/or used interchangeably, from antiquity right down to modern times. From the current Israeli border to the center of downtown Damascus is all of 30 miles. This is about the distance from Long Beach to Burbank so in LA you are still in the same school district.

  108. BenKenobi says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    LOL @ the replies to this post.

    Jack: “Chutzpah”

    IJ: “Oy vey!”

  109. nebulafox says:
    @International Jew

    >However the genomic issue is resolved, the political implication will be good for the Jews.

    I mean, Israel has pretty much won in every way you can think of. Even demographics are a stalemate these days. This is just pouring it on.

    The best result for everybody involved would be for the Palestinians to accept that right of return and Jerusalem aren’t happening and look for concessions the Israelis might actually be willing to give: think Michael Collins in early 1920s Ireland. The average Israeli no more likes war and violence than any average citizen of any country, so I suspect they’d be willing to give *something* for it to end. But that something isn’t going to be what the Palestinians are currently demanding, ever. They aren’t going to give up things they already have in exchange for things they also already have, and rightfully so. Nobody’s ever done that in human history.

    It’s certainly better than the only other realistic alternative, which is letting the baby arms race continue to the inevitable destructive bloodbath that it’ll end in some day. I do not define European leftists somehow bailing the Palestinians out as realistic, given Israel’s vastly improved relationships with the non-Western world and their Arab neighbors over the past 50 years, along with the demographic changes making Israel less and less of a “European” society. In fact, I fault all those idiots in the streets ranting on about a free Gaza for prolonging the conflict. They are giving the Palestinians hope they don’t have.

  110. Jack D says:
    @Crawfurdmuir

    Παλαιστίνη

    https://ia802300.us.archive.org/9/items/L397AristotleMeteorologica/L397-Aristotle%20Meteorologica.pdf

    See p.185. line 18 (the hyphenated word at the end of the line).

    Aside from Aristotle’s perhaps vague understanding of Middle Eastern geography (“Palestine” was always the coastal area, akin to today’s Lebanon), as discussed elsewhere, the Roman renaming of Judea as Palestina was a throwback to a former name that hadn’t been used for centuries as an intentional effort to literally erase Judea from the map.

  111. Jack D says:
    @nebulafox

    The problem of the Palestinian leadership is somewhat akin to the problem that Democrat presidential candidates are having nowadays – if you take a sensible position then you can’t survive. No Palestinian leader wants to go down in history (and he would be history because he probably wouldn’t survive) as being the man who permanently threw in the towel on the Right of Return. The best alternative is what we have right now, where you have a defacto situation that is tolerable (at least in the West Bank) and everyone just lives with the defacto situation without any formal peace treaty. This is how it has worked in S. Korea and a lot of other places.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  112. nebulafox says:
    @Logan

    That invoking the fate of the natives in the Americas is often taken as an argument *for* open borders these days is really… quite remarkable. Wouldn’t their fate logically imply the opposite?

    • Replies: @Logan
  113. @LondonBob

    Not sure what you mean by “Babylonian episode”. You might be confusing two very different things there, moreover Pharisees weren’t part of the picture in either case.

    In any event, if the Palestinians were to take up any plausible version of Judaism and made it clear they identify more with Israeli Jews than with, say, Syrian or Jordanian Muslims, that would be enough for 90% of Jewish Israelis to embrace them with open arms.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  114. nebulafox says:
    @Jack D

    I’m aware: Michael Collins didn’t survive, either. His anti-British conflict bona fides were second to none, and tnd that was Western Europe, if Western Europe nearly 100 years ago. He still got whacked. Given that this is the Middle East, I’m not expecting any Palestinian Michael Collins to stand up soon.

    I’d have no issue with letting the status quo go on Korea-style if it wasn’t for the demographics issue. On both sides, the hardliners are the ones reproducing quickest. I have a very hard seeing how that ends well, long-term, especially considering the limited resources of the region. Granted, I don’t really think it is America’s business, and who knows, maybe we’ll finally learn our lesson and leave them to kill each other, and let the dice fall where they may. But given how deep the Whiggishness goes in American psychology, I’m not sure about gambling on us coming to our senses.

  115. nebulafox says:
    @Anonymous

    Welcome to the world as it is, as it has been, and as it will always be.

    “For ourselves,” the Athenians said, “we shall not trouble you with specious pretences … since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.”

    • Replies: @vinteuil
    , @vinteuil
  116. @Jack D

    When a land is conquered by invaders, sometimes the invader kills or expels the entire population, especially the males, but in other cases they allow them (especially the females) to stay and adopt the religion and customs of the conquerors.

    The latter is more common. A big part of conquest is acquiring population. Without added population, it’s harder to defend the larger territory you have. And a larger tax base is necessary to pay for the costs incurred from war, including rewards for your followers, who need those rewards to compensate their followers, all the way down the line. And acquiring more land is pointless if there’s no one to work the land. Even a post-war baby boom requires a decade for the infants to become productive. And prior to modern medicine, organic population increases were not guaranteed, given all the diseases that struck down even royals during childhood.

  117. @Honesthughgrant

    There has to be some reason for the decline of Greece from fountainhead of Western Civilization, to Greece circa 1830.

    What accounts for the decline of white America from the confident, fertile, cohesive 1950s, to its condition today — pozzed, demoralized, obese, isolated and contracting?

    External causes (eg 400 years under the Turks) are easy to find. Internal reasons are more elusive but sometimes primary.

  118. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Hadrian named the area Palestina…so what? King Hussein commented on the matter? That means nothing. DNA trumps what either of these men said or did. This article is about DNA, you can spare us the (simplistic) history lesson.

  119. Daniel H says:
    @Jack D

    but a lot of them also migrated from other parts of the Ottoman Empire such as Damascus or Cairo,

    Where is the evidence for this assertion? Where is the evidence that “a lot of them” migrated?

    There may have been a lot less movement about than is assumed. Recent genetic evidence (Google it up, it’s there) reveals that the vast majority of English people descend from people who were living in England 4,000 years ago.

  120. Daniel H says:
    @nebulafox

    The best result for everybody involved would be for the Palestinians to accept that right of return and Jerusalem aren’t happening and look for concessions the Israelis might actually be willing to give:

    Gotta give the devil his due, Bill Clinton arranged a great deal for the Palestinians, but the Arafat/PLO rejected it. Palestinians blew it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Anonymous
  121. Art Deco says:
    @Jack D

    That both Yasir Arafat and Edward Said grew up in Egypt is indicative of something, I think.

    • Replies: @International Jew
    , @Jack D
  122. Art Deco says:
    @Twodees Partain

    Nobody was slaughtered except as a collateral consequence of military action. No one was displaced until the Arab governments and various local factions decided they wanted a bloody battle.

    Now tell me what % of the buildings in Tel Aviv, Haifa, and Jerusalem were put in place with Arab labor and consequent to Arab entrepreneurship. Tell me what share of the acreage under cultivation was under cultivation in 1897.

  123. @Anonymous

    Shulchan Arukh, Yoreh Deah chapter 363, if you must know.

  124. anonymous[147] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    ?

    The existence of the Aaronite, Levite, and Kohenite Y-chromosome lines is one of the most widely known discoveries of the last ~2 decade population genomic study era. It is canon now.

  125. Art Deco says:
    @BigDickNick

    Actually, instances of political violence in the Arab world have tended to be intramural, or between Arab states, or contra European powers establishing or maintaining dependencies (in the Maghreb, for the most part). Aside from the long running battles with Israel, the main exceptions would be the Iran-Iraq War and the generations-long insurgencies in the Sudan. Arabs made irritants out of themselves by doing things like shooting up Italian airports, but that doesn’t quite fit your model.

    • Replies: @BigDickNick
  126. @nebulafox

    Hmm… interesting. So the Greek speaking world did call it Palestine instead of Judea.

    Not necessarily so. Pleshet/Palestine existed as a political entity alongside Judea for centuries as evident in chapter 1 of Amos among many other places.

  127. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    It is, unless they want to claim they were there before ancient Jews who were also Zionists.

  128. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @OilcanFloyd

    In the Bible, IIRC, Abraham is from Ur, which was in what is now Iraq.

    • Replies: @OilcanFloyd
    , @Art Deco
  129. Not Raul says:
    @Colin Wright

    Definitely.

    The J-P58 Y haplotype is considered the exemplary Kohen Y haplotype.

    14% of non-Kohen Ashkenazi Jews have it.

    46% of Kohenim have it.

    64% of Bedouin in the Negev have it.

    Also, 68% of Yemenis (the cradle of the Arabs) have it.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  130. Olorin says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    All it takes is a little chutzpah

    And some strategic retconning of history. I’m sure you could gin up grounds for being owed repamarations by all those real estate holders, e.g.

    I understand that today, all one needs to do is invent an (entirely unattested/wholly mythic) ancestry of having been humanly trafficked by certain specific people in certain specific places at certain specific times. Or of being the lost princely orphans of Wakandan Kangz who today suffer under the unthinkable oppression of a) being laughed at for being chubby and nerdly and b) having your kid be told to stop blocking the down escalator’s egress.

    Especially effective is when that retconning is coupled with shifting the evidentiary methods for ownership and legal status.

    I’m thinking in particular of the Statute of Quo Warranto, England, Edward I (proceedings begun in 1275 iirc, statute to follow in 1290, along with Quia Emptores).

    https://thelawdictionary.org/quia-emptores/

    Or more interestingly:
    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/285482.From_Memory_to_Written_Record

    Admittedly I’m of the view that “Jewish” is a set of discursive/textual, social, and political strategies rather than a genetic whatever whatever. We might trace back the strategy to some ur-strategy developed by a pool of ur-Jews somewhere sometime…but “people of the book” means sumpin’, and the sumpin’ ain’t Logos.

    And boy oh boy do they hate physically robust/morally clear/non-hive-dwelling tool users, explorers, and innovators who prosper in the material world…while not placing upon it ultimate value.

  131. What in reality, is the question here? Who was first? I know it seems of immense importance to both/all parties involved, but it’s ultimately irrelevant.

    Jews, as a nation-state, are there because of Hitler. Of course there were centuries of historical longing to go back there; the 19th C national program of Zionism; some modern settlers, beginning from the late 19th C; the Balfour Declaration; building of modern Jewish institutions in the interwar period….

    But, it wouldn’t be enough people nor common will had Hitler not come to power & started his program of persecution & extermination. Jews would have remained an isolated community & after decolonization they would have been slightly more advanced in their nationhood than in other countries, but without demographic basis to form a nation-state.

    Israel is there because, to put it metaphorically, due to history’s “verdict”, they prevailed on a small patch of land in the struggle with the competing forces. Were they weaker, no amount of gene testing would have helped them.

  132. @nebulafox

    Zionist.

    There’s no point in ‘negotiating’ with Zionists. They never keep their agreements. That’s been true from the assurances they gave at Versailles right on through to the various ‘cease fires’ they stage with their permanently caged victims in Gaza.

  133. @Logan

    ‘Many of us are descended from people who arrived here about the same time as Jews started returning in numbers to Israel. But somehow we have a right to our land, and they don’t.’

    The difficulty here, of course, is that the Jews in question weren’t ‘returning’ to anywhere.

    You can’t ‘return’ to a place neither you nor your ancestors ever inhabited. I might as well talk about ‘returning’ to my Japanese homeland on the grounds that I’ve taken up Zen Buddhism.

    • Replies: @Logan
  134. @International Jew

    ‘…In any event, if the Palestinians were to take up any plausible version of Judaism and made it clear they identify more with Israeli Jews than with, say, Syrian or Jordanian Muslims, that would be enough for 90% of Jewish Israelis to embrace them with open arms.’

    Like they’re embracing the Ethiopians right now?

    Please: at least try to come up with more plausible lies.

  135. @Logan

    [After the death of Solomon, ~ 937 BC] the two states [Israel and Judah] had no more in common, for good or evil, than any two other countries with a common frontier.

    Well, that’s a pretty stupid statement.

    The states of Israel and Judah spoke the same language, worshiped the same God (some of the time anyway) and were essentially different tribes of the same ethnic group.

    Their relationship was more like that of Austria and Prussia before 1866, two states within the one German nation.’

    Wouldn’t it be more like the relationship of King Arthur to Mordred, or something?

    After all, we are discussing what are clearly fictional entities dreamed up five hundred years after the supposed fact by different people entirely.

    • Replies: @Logan
  136. @Jack D

    ‘There was no Ottoman province of Palestine. Most of the current territory of Israel was covered by 3 different Sanjaks – the Sanjaks of Acre, Nablus and Jerusalem, all of which were administratively part of the Province of Damascus and ultimately ruled from Istanbul. There was no such thing as a “Palestinian” identity – either people identified with their Sanjak or they considered themselves to be Syrian Arabs and/or Ottoman citizens. If the Arab armies had succeeded in ’48 or ’67 or ’73 then the territory of Israel would have been split between Jordan and Syria and Egypt and no one would have said a word. “Palestine” in the sense of a separate national identity for the Arabs of this area is largely a modern (post 1948) invention although the British created a “Mandate of Palestine” in the wake of their breakup of the Ottoman Empire. That’s OK – most national identities are “fake” to one degree or another and many European national identities are not much older.’

    ‘Palestine’ has been the most commonly used term for the geographical area in question right back to the ancient Assyrians. See, for example, the Jerusalem Post’ — which was founded as the Palestine Post. Palestine always been Palestine sure as Anatolia has always been Anatolia.

    By contrast, ‘Israel’ has usually been taken to refer not to a geographic place, but to the Jewish community — wherever it might be. For example, Philo of Alexandria was quite sure he was part of ‘Israel’ — and he didn’t feel the least need to head on over to Palestine to make that so.

    ‘Israel’ as the place name of a piece of land is a virtual neologism — and a decidedly ideologically loaded one at that. If you want to talk about the place, say ‘Palestine.’ The people who live in it are ‘Palestinians’ — whatever the latest set of invaders.

  137. @Dave Pinsen

    Isn’t that on the Arabian Peninsula? I believe it is. If not, I don’t think it negates the rest of my post.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  138. @Art Deco

    It’s indicative of a factor that I don’t think has been mentioned on this thread: that Israel is very small. Start people in the Near East — of which Israel constitutes about 5% — and have them wander around, Brownian-motion-like. 2000 years later, you’ll find a pretty small minority of the inhabitants of Israel to be descended mostly from people who were there 2000 years ago.

    Think now of North America. Even without genomic or archeological evidence, it’s a good bet that 2000 years ago the ancestors of today’s Cherokees lived in North America. But less likely that they lived around Smoky Mountains National Park (or wherever their specific stomping grounds were before Andrew Jackson sent them west).

    • Replies: @International Jew
  139. @Twodees Partain

    To me it’s one of those no-brainer type answers.

    The problem with no-brainer answers is that they’re liable to underperform answers that do employ the brain. For starters, Israel’s current population is descended less from Europe than from the Arab Middle East and North Africa.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  140. @International Jew

    Further to my analogy to North America: Andrew Jackson sent the Cherokees a thousand miles away and they were still inside the USA. Moshe Dayan and Yitzhak Rabin moved the Arabs of Lydda and Ramleh ten miles east, and (once the dust settled) they found themselves in another country!

    • Replies: @Jack D
  141. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    And, from a DNA standpoint, the ancient Philistines aren’t the direct ancestors of the modern Palestinians (who are mostly Arabian).

    “Mostly Arabian” is not obvious at all. The Arab Conquests were so vast, and so rapid, that it is unlikely that a majority of the population of the conquered lands originated in the Arabian peninsula.

    This is why the study of ancient DNA from the Holy Land will be so contentious.

  142. Jack D says:
    @Art Deco

    That Arafat’s cousin was the Mufti of Jerusalem and good buddies with Hitler and Himmler is also indicative of something.

    • Replies: @International Jew
  143. I’ve always found these debates about ancient ancestry of Israel/Palestine’s inhabitants to be bizarre and irrelevant. Do the Basques get to kick everybody else out of Europe because they were there first?

    Israel has a right to exist on the same basis as other nations:

    A war was fought to decide who got Israel/Palestine. The Jews won. They won the subsequent wars too.

    Israel’s existence reflects the will of most of the inhabitants (for now at least)

    Israel is at least by Middle-Eastern a successful country.

    On these bases, which are the same bases we use to judge the right of other countries to exist, Israel has a right to exist.

  144. @Art Deco

    Arab labor, a lot. Arab entrepreneurship not so much.

  145. @Jack D

    When you stop ‘n think about it, now that Generalissimo Francisco Franco is gone, the Palestinian National Movement is the last Nazi ally left standing!

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Art Deco
  146. Jack D says:
    @International Jew

    As I said in another comment, Damascus is a whole 30 miles from the Israeli border. Even in the era of donkey transport, people would travel 30 miles on a regular basis.

  147. bucky says:
    @BigDickNick

    Jesus Christ what the heck? Give some evidence backing this assertion. The Arabs I’ve known were all quite civilized and with good manners. To a fault, you could argue.

  148. Jack D says:
    @Twodees Partain

    Most of the population of Israel did not come there 71 years ago and didn’t come from Europe either. That describes the ancestry of only a very small segment of the population. Nor was there much slaughter by 20th century standards where millions died elsewhere (E.g. Partition of India at exactly the same time – up to 2 million dead and 14 million displaced).

    No one in life gives you permission for anything. You have to take it and keep it. The Arabs tried and failed to keep this territory so they got what befalls losers everywhere. At some point you have to accept your losses and move on as have, for example, the millions of Germans displaced from the east. Or you can continue to “resist” a much stronger foe and get the crap beat out of you, over and over – your choice. Being “right” in the abstract gets you nothing, nada, zip, zilch.

  149. @Art Deco

    ‘Nobody was slaughtered except as a collateral consequence of military action. No one was displaced until the Arab governments and various local factions decided they wanted a bloody battle…’

    Lol. You need to get together with Wally. You can sing duets.

  150. @LondonBob

    London Bob: please give us your source for this illuminating passage.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
  151. @International Jew

    ‘When you stop ‘n think about it, now that Generalissimo Francisco Franco is gone, the Palestinian National Movement is the last Nazi ally left standing!’

    Now that’s odd. I’ve always seen Zionist Israel as the most perfect realization of Nazism ever achieved.

    Seriously; it’s not just hyperbole. In so many ways, Zionism is Nazism. The morbidly exaggerated racial nationalism. The willful fantasies about history. The worship of violence and power. The contempt for law. The lack of any concern for the fate of anyone outside the racial community. The compulsive violence…

    What more could you want? It’s Hitler’s dream — not the folks he had in mind, but…

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  152. @Jack D

    ‘No one in life gives you permission for anything. You have to take it and keep it. The Arabs tried and failed to keep this territory so they got what befalls losers everywhere. At some point you have to accept your losses and move on as have, for example, the millions of Germans displaced from the east. Or you can continue to “resist” a much stronger foe and get the crap beat out of you, over and over – your choice. Being “right” in the abstract gets you nothing, nada, zip, zilch.’

    We could concede that — although I wouldn’t.

    However, if we do, why should we here in the US sponsor, support, nurture, and protect this little experiment in pointless viciousness?

    It’s like demanding the US sign on to bankroll the Lord’s Liberation Army. Even if we grant that we should ignore it, how on earth does it follow that we should support it?

  153. @Art Deco

    Arabs are still being slaughtered in Israel. Since you’re the expert, you tell me about the buildings and the agriculture.. You’re arguing against claims that I didn’t make.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  154. @International Jew

    And where did I claim that the ethnic group (European Jews) was the majority? Argue with what I said, not what you wish I had said.

  155. Shmendrix says:
    @Twodees Partain

    My Syrian mother and Yemenite wife would be very surprised to learn that they are actually European. Thanks for the heads up.

  156. @Jack D

    The ethnic group that I referred to (European Jews) did just arrive there in the time period +/- 71 years ago from Europe. I didn’t say that they were the majority. They’re just the group that has caused all the trouble there, and are still causing trouble.

    You can parse the term “slaughtered” as you like, and claim that “by 20th Century standards” there wasn’t much of a slaughter, but to do so you have to stipulate that there has been slaughter, and that it’s ongoing.

    European Jews were given permission to immigrate to British Palestine. That is undeniable. Your claim of necessity for the terrorism and slaughter doesn’t change the facts on the ground.

  157. @Jack D

    Most of the Jews in Israel aren’t descended from people who came there in the 1900s and 2000s? BS. That’s completely untrue. Even their bogus claim of “a land without people for a people without land” admits this much.

    I might accept a tough stance from Jews about taking what you want and cutting your losses if Jews weren’t constantly whining about what they’ve gone through and demanding everything from everyone. Jews are the biggest bullies and whiners on the planet.

  158. Philip Neal says: • Website
    @gcochran

    Herodotus, Histories, i 105 (5th century BC):

    From there they marched against Egypt: and when they were in the part of Syria called Palestine [ ἐν τῇ Παλαιστίνῃ Συρίῃ], Psammetichus king of Egypt met them and persuaded them with gifts and prayers to come no further. So they turned back, and when they came on their way to the city of Ascalon in Syria, most of the Scythians passed by and did no harm, but a few remained behind and plundered the temple of Heavenly Aphrodite.

  159. Chuck says:

    This topic is a honeypot for the hasbarats. They can’t help but identify themsleves!

    • Replies: @Shmendrix
  160. Lot says:
    @Lars Porsena

    They are closest to modern Greeks and cluster with Europeans.

    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
  161. @Jack D

    Might makes right Jack? Really? If you are right, what do we need civilization for?

    • Replies: @gcochran
  162. @Anonymous

    Battle of the Anonomi, 137 vs. 139, without citation to the record. What parameters determine credibility?

  163. Continuity and Admixture in the Last Five Millennia
    of Levantine History from Ancient Canaanite
    and Present-Day Lebanese Genome Sequences
    Marc Haber, et al.

    http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8

    scroll down to Supplemental Data
    Fig S6
    The dark purple solid circles are Lebanese, who are equivalent to ancient Canaanites. The purple circles with + inside are Palestinians, and they are at one end of the distribution of Lebanese. Jews are open purple down-pointing triangles. They are at a distance from Lebanese/Palestinians, because they have similarity to Europeans.

  164. @Anonymous

    As you note, Palestine predates the State of Israel on that land. Therefore, Palestine’s right to exist there trumps Israel’s.

    Weak argument. Political organization does not determine ownership. Did France’s Fifth Republic lose claim to the land held by France’s Fourth Republic?

  165. @LondonBob

    Right Bob, because England and Scotland have no more in common than England and Uruguay, or England and Mongolia.

  166. Art Deco says:
    @International Jew

    Spain and Portugal were neutral during the 2d World War. Franco took aid from the Axis, but he would not invest blood and treasure in the Axis cause. (“We will astound them with our ingratitude”). The Spanish and Portuguese regimes had features in common with the Italian regime in the realm of political economy. However, neither regime was animated by revanchism contra external enemies and internal enemies were limited to the political opposition, not communal groups. The regime ideology in Spain (such as it was – students of Franco offer that none was in his might necessary to justify his right to rule) drew on three separate strands of which two – Alfonsine monarchism and Carlism – drew on Spain’s 19th century disorders. The third – Falangism – had more affinity for Italian fascism but neither its founder (Primo de Rivera) nor its formulator (Serrano Suner) thought of Falangism as a variant or species of fascism. The development of Portuguese integralism antedated the development of fascism.

  167. Art Deco says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    There’s been the last 40 years another school of thought that says he wasn’t from Ur of the Chaldees but from a different Ur which was located in what is now the Syrian Arab Republic.

  168. If you told an Arab living in the West Bank he was a ‘Palestinian’ pre-48 he would try to cut your throat. At that time the ‘Palestinians’ were the Jewish gentrifiers.

    Even Norman Finkelstein, surely one the most tireless advocate for the Pals in recent decades, gets exasperated by the situationists involved in Palestine Solidarity:

    • Replies: @International Jew
  169. Anon[231] • Disclaimer says:

    Since there were no historical “Jews of the Old Testament”, there can be no match for “who is genetically closest to the Jews of the Old Testament”.

    There was no Exodus with a magic plague staff and stone tablets handed down on a mountain. At least not to a mythical Israel as detailed in the OT, as verified by scholars as well as comparative Anatolian / Grecian mythology that well predates the Exodus story but parallels its central themes and constructs (obviously lending them to Exodus).

    That’s before we start comparing other themes from the earlier Vedic religion, which Judaism also borrowed from (still only referring to Exodus, but there is plenty of fruit throughout the rest of the OT).

    The law set forth in the Hurrian Nuzi tablets is closer to Early Hebrew Law than is later Hebrew Law.

    In short, the linchpin set of mythical events that comprise the religiously and ethnically central Exodus event of the Old Testament are a rip off from earlier non-Jewish cultures.

    To know Judaism is to know that this doesn’t matter to Jews. The entirety of Judaism, to include their foundational yet borrowed ethnic identity, is about their political plans for the future “Messianic” Era. This is why they can impose themselves on a territory knowing that their justifications are stories invented by them. Their greatest morality is toward their future interest, not whatever it takes to bring that interest to fruition. I suspect that their practice with the Exodus lie is also why the Holocaust lie is so easy to perpetuate. Its also yet another reason why it should be held in suspicion.

    I don’t hold the Palestinians to be original to that land either, given that it has been subject to thousands of years of Arab (from the region of Saudi Arabia) and Turkish (from the region of Mongolia) invasions.

  170. Anon[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @OilcanFloyd

    If their faces reveal anything about their DNA, then Jews are a very mixed group of people.

    Respectfully, you don’t know Jews very well.

    Technically unrelated Jewish Jewish men tend to look more similar than my siblings and myself, and my family is genetics are well contained to Northwest Europe.

    Jews have a risk of inbreeding disease. This is from a lack of genetic distance between individuals across the majority of the group. They are genetically less mixed than almost any group in the West. A true conversion is almost impossible, highly guarded against with deep religious doctrine (See the Misnaic Scale of Lineages), are commonly revoked, and there is intense social pressure to not out marry. There is no evangelization to speak of. Going on for thousands of years, this has created an inbred race. Rational people don’t give them a pass for the few fringe groups that they ceremonially include but do not intermarry with at any meaningful rate.

    • Replies: @OilcanFloyd
  171. ricpic says:

    Weren’t the Philistines the founders of Carthage?

    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
  172. Anon[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @Boswald Bollocksworth

    The A-rabs invaded a place that was already densely settled and ripe for taxation. I’ll bet they hardly affected the autosomal genetics and that Palestinians are 80%+ descended from the Biblical tribes who lived there.

    If true, this means that the modern Spaniards are the “good enough” descendants of the historical Scandinavian Visigoths, and inheritors of their legacy, rather than a replacement race that is the result from the imposition of Islamic hordes and other Semites on the prior population.

    Are Spaniards the same as, say, Swedes? Is there presence in Spain sociopolitically indistinguishable from if it were occupied by modern Swedes: genetically, culturally, or in terms of any concept of rightful inheritance? If so, then perhaps it is irrelevant whether or not modern Israel is inhabited 100% by Ethiopian Jews.

    The Spaniards have a healthy dose of Asian and African genetics and it shows. These admixtures have always been the primary marker to disqualify a group from being characterized as that of the (generally stated) European racial type, due to that racial type’s relative lack of hominid admixture that otherwise increasingly (with type and quantity) mutes recessive genetic expression.

    The truth is that one drop tends to matter in a sociopolitical and cultural sense.

  173. @Ghost of Bull Moose

    Wow, an old-fashioned leftist who cares about living within consistent standards. He must feel awfully out of place in today’s left — among the “situationists” as you call them.

  174. @Shmendrix

    Are “mistanenim” then reflexive Chinamen?

  175. Anonymous[110] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    If the Palestinians are Europeans let them go back to Europe. (Maybe something can be arranged with Frau Merkel?)

    That is what the Jews seem to be angling for. They would probably like to significant Arab population (especially Arabs of fighting and breeding age) from Palestine, as well as elsewhere in the Levant and stretching to the Euphrates, move out of the region to Europe, the United States, and Australia.

    It has a dual effect of clearing out challengers to land in Palestine and helping to further pulverize the White Gentile peoples.

    • Agree: Gordo
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  176. Svigor says:

    The “our book of lies written by us says so” thing is cute. Though I suppose we should take at face value the Jewish claim that the land is the rightful property of the Canaanites; admission against interest, and all.

    I’ll just leave this here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru

    Habiru (sometimes written as Hapiru, and more accurately as ʿApiru, meaning “dusty, dirty”[1]) is a term used in 2nd-millennium BCE texts throughout the Fertile Crescent for people variously described as rebels, outlaws, raiders, mercenaries, bowmen, servants, slaves, and laborers.

    Oh, the article on Jews has this funny bit:

    it is widely recognized that the attributive use of the noun Jew, in phrases such as Jew lawyer or Jew ethics, is both vulgar and highly offensive. In such contexts Jewish is the only acceptable possibility. Some people, however, have become so wary of this construction that they have extended the stigma to any use of Jew as a noun, a practice that carries risks of its own. In a sentence such as There are now several Jews on the council, which is unobjectionable, the substitution of a circumlocution like Jewish people or persons of Jewish background may in itself cause offense for seeming to imply that Jew has a negative connotation when used as a noun.[53]

    Almost as if Hibarus have the same branding problem as negros coloreds afro-americans blacks african-americans. Extra-neurotic kvetching gratis.

  177. Svigor says:
    @Jack D

    It is silly to think that scientific findings of “who was here first” can have any bearing on political questions.

    “Silly” = projection. Silly to think it can’t, shouldn’t, or doesn’t.

  178. Anonymous[110] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twodees Partain

    Steve, I like the fact that you use my term for archaeology: grave robbing. To me, the question of which ethnicity has the right to Palestine is answerable without digging up a single skeleton. Which ethnic group came there from Europe 71 or so years ago and were given permission by other outsiders to move in and displace/slaughter the inhabitants?

    That group is the one with no right to Palestine. To me it’s one of those no-brainer type answers.

    Good post.

  179. Anonymous[110] • Disclaimer says:
    @BigDickNick

    tons of arabs have admitted palestinian identity is a recently invented concept. It was basically invented in reaction to zionism.

    All concepts and identities are “invented”. You could say the same of Jews, Israelis.

  180. Anonymous[110] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Never said he said it publicly. But, ca. 4,000 yrs ago, there were the Hebrews who are definitely the direct modern ancestors of the modern Jews.

    There is zero DNA or documentary proof of such ancestry.

  181. Anonymous[110] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    There are other Jews than just Ashkenazi, they’ve been living continuously in the area known today as Israel for close to ca.4k yrs. Therefore, the argument stands. It’s their land. Period.

    There is zero evidentiary link of continuous ancestral habitation for 4,000 years. But even if there were, such people are not the self-described “Jews” from Europe, America, and North Africa who now claim a birthright in Israel.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  182. @Lot

    Has there been genetic testing of Minoan remains?

    • Replies: @Lot
  183. Art Deco says:
    @Twodees Partain

    Arabs are still being slaughtered in Israel.

    No Arabs are being slaughtered in Israel. Real income levels for Arabs in Israel are in the Arab World exceeded only among the indigenous Arabs of the Gulf (and it’s a reasonable calculation that Arabs in Israel have salable skills the Gulf Arabs lack). The most affluent Arab country not a petrostate is Tunisia. Real income levels among Arabs in Israel are 2x those of Tunisians. Israel has one of the world’s most durable constitutional systems and a vigorous civil society. It has a modest crime rate. It has stable prices and a healthy labor market. It’s balance-of-payments are in surplus and it’s public sector deficit and bonded indebtedness are manageable. Literacy is nearly universal among those under 60 and as we speak, > 90% are enrolled in secondary schooling. Pretty good quality of life for Israel’s Arabs (who are, btw, largely exempt from military conscription).

    You’re arguing against claims that I didn’t make

    The point I’m making is pretty obvious. The arable land, the physical capital, and the human capital in Israel is largely a function of the Jewish presence there. (The claim you actually did make is a delusion).

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  184. @Anon

    Respectfully, you don’t know Jews very well.

    My observations are based on looking at the different groups of Jews in Israel. Iraqi Jews and Persian Jews look different than Yemeni Jews, who look diffeent than Ashkenazi Jews, who don’t have the same look as Sephardis or Mizrahis, and none look like Ethiopian Jews. Some Jews, especially those from western Europe, don’t even look like Jews at all.

  185. Art Deco says:
    @Colin Wright

    I’ve always seen Zionist Israel as the most perfect realization of Nazism ever achieve

    OK, you’re a head case. That’s your family’s problem, not ours.

    • Troll: BengaliCanadianDude
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  186. @Not Raul

    ‘Definitely.

    The J-P58 Y haplotype is considered the exemplary Kohen Y haplotype.

    14% of non-Kohen Ashkenazi Jews have it.

    46% of Kohenim have it.

    64% of Bedouin in the Negev have it.

    Also, 68% of Yemenis (the cradle of the Arabs) have it.’

    So what you’re saying is that Ashkenazim are very, very badly mongrelized Arabs?

  187. @Anonymous

    ‘There is zero evidentiary link of continuous ancestral habitation for 4,000 years. But even if there were, such people are not the self-described “Jews” from Europe, America, and North Africa who now claim a birthright in Israel.’

    That’s the gist of it. Much is unclear — but what is clear more than suffices to render the whole thesis of Zionism nonsense.

    It’s a bit like if you claim to be my son. Well, much about your life might be uncertain — but should we establish that you were born three years earlier than me, we needn’t fret about your claim to my estate.

  188. @Art Deco

    ‘OK, you’re a head case. That’s your family’s problem, not ours.’

    In other words, you prefer not to respond to my argument.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  189. @ricpic

    No, Phoenicians founded Carthage, a semitic/canaanite people probably from somewhere between the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf originally.

    Philistines were Greek and showed up in the Levant from Crete.

  190. @Anonymous

    ‘That is what the Jews seem to be angling for. They would probably like to significant Arab population (especially Arabs of fighting and breeding age) from Palestine, as well as elsewhere in the Levant and stretching to the Euphrates, move out of the region to Europe, the United States, and Australia…’

    It’s worse than that. Morality aside, all successful conquerers have either assimilated, been assimilated by, simply exterminated their victims, or some combination of the three. The Slavs who moved into the interior of the Peloponnese in the Dark Ages were eventually assimilated by the Byzantine Greeks. Spain radically reduced the indigenous population of the Americas and then largely assimilated the survivors.

    Etc. It’s always been some combination of these processes — but the Jews in Israel can do none of the above. They won’t convert their gentile subjects. To be converted by them makes nonsense of the whole Zionist project; the idea was not to move to Palestine and become more Muslim or Christian Arabs. They probably dearly would love to replicate the Holocaust with themselves as perpetrators rather than victims, but in the current global context, they’d never be able to get away with it.

    So that leaves aimlessly, futilely tormenting their victims. Caging them and then shooting down the resulting demonstrators at a rate of a few a week will never solve their problem. It’s just pointless sadism; history as a nasty little boy catching flies and pulling off their wings.

    What’s the point? All this evil is just in pursuit of something that’s a lie to start with. The modern Jews of Israel aren’t from Palestine; all one has to do is look at their photographs, and that’s evident.

    So pull the plug on the place and watch them leave. It’s the only moral thing to do.

  191. @Art Deco

    what about their treatment of minorities like copts and kurds? and have they ever won a war against a decent non-arab army?

  192. @Jack D

    people kept telling them that they were not European and should go back to Palestine

    “They” being people like Emma Lazarus and Theodor Herzl.

  193. @Bill P

    In the 80s movie Once Upon a Time in America, a Jewish cemetery on New York’s
    Lower East Side gets dug up and the bodies get moved to mausoleums in a posh new cemetery in Westchester, to be closer to their prosperous crime-family descendants. I don’t remember anyone getting all verklempt about it.

  194. @Art Deco

    ‘Arabs are still being slaughtered in Israel.

    No Arabs are being slaughtered in Israel…’

    Sure they are. Israel just finds it convenient to continue to define much of the territory she rules as ‘not Israel.’

    It facilitates slaughtering Arabs, you see.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    , @Lot
  195. @Art Deco

    Nobody was slaughtered

    Troll

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  196. Art Deco says:
    @Colin Wright

    I’m not going to ‘respond to your argument’ if you begin discoursing about astrology, either. To anyone remotely familiar with Israel and Nazi Germany, the notion that the former is an exemplar of the political goals of the latter is unreal. This isn’t that difficult.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Anon
  197. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @OilcanFloyd

    Iraq is not on the Arabian peninsula.

    • Replies: @OilcanFloyd
    , @OilcanFloyd
  198. Art Deco says:
    @BigDickNick

    Fair point. Forgot about the Kurdish insurgencies. Turkey also has a history of abusing its minorities. (AFAIK, Iran does not).

  199. @BigDickNick

    what about their treatment of minorities

    Hah! Glass houses…..

  200. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel H

    The best result for everybody involved would be for the Palestinians to accept that right of return and Jerusalem aren’t happening and look for concessions the Israelis might actually be willing to give:

    Gotta give the devil his due, Bill Clinton arranged a great deal for the Palestinians, but the Arafat/PLO rejected it. Palestinians blew it.

    I don’t know but it’s been said, Arafat personally might have been ok with it but he figured he’d be killed like Sadat if it happened.

    Not sure about such things but it sounds plausible.

    Personally, I don’t care either way about Israel all that much but I want the US, or whatever successor state to it I wind up in in the unlikely event I’m still alive when the breakup happens, out of the Middle East. I hope Saudi runs dry and the sooner the better.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  201. Art Deco says:
    @Colin Wright

    Israel just finds it convenient to continue to define much of the territory she rules as ‘not Israel.’

    Because it’s not Israel, any more than Jordan or Egypt or Lebanon is Israel. It does have an unresolved political status, but that’s because either Arab states or Arab brigands have sabotaged six separate efforts to revise and resolve the political status of those territories. They want a better deal, they’re going to have to bargain for it, and that they do not wish to do.

    And they’re not being slaughtered there, either. Israel has conducted periodic operations against Gaza because the rulers of Gaza use their meagre resources to tunnel under border fences and run artillery barrages against Israeli towns. If the rules of Gaza don’t wish to have their artillery blown up (with the inevitable collateral damage), they can quit with the barrages. If they don’t want Hamas operatives shot dead by Israeli border guards, don’t mob the border. This isn’t that difficult.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Anonymous
  202. Lot says:
    @Colin Wright

    “Israel just finds it convenient to continue to define much of the territory she rules as ‘not Israel.’”

    So annex the West Bank then? You Zionist!

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  203. Art Deco says:
    @BengaliCanadianDude

    You can consult Necrometrics. The violence of note is in re Gaza. It’s not that difficult for the ruling brigands in Gaza to avoid getting stomped by the Israeli military every half-dozen years or so. No more tunneling and no more artillery barrages and no more mobbing the border. You may not be interested in the welfare of their peripheral towns, but they are. This isn’t that difficult.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  204. @Art Deco

    ‘Because it’s not Israel, any more than Jordan or Egypt or Lebanon is Israel. It does have an unresolved political status, but that’s because either Arab states or Arab brigands have sabotaged six separate efforts to revise and resolve the political status of those territories. They want a better deal, they’re going to have to bargain for it, and that they do not wish to do.

    And they’re not being slaughtered there, either. Israel has conducted periodic operations against Gaza because the rulers of Gaza use their meagre resources to tunnel under border fences and run artillery barrages against Israeli towns. If the rules of Gaza don’t wish to have their artillery blown up (with the inevitable collateral damage), they can quit with the barrages. If they don’t want Hamas operative shot dead by Israeli border guards, don’t mob the border. This isn’t that difficult.’

    Should I actually bother to rebut your sophisms and lies?

    I think not. At this point, they’re awfully tired. I don’t think I’m even seriously meant to believe them.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  205. @Lot

    ‘“Israel just finds it convenient to continue to define much of the territory she rules as ‘not Israel.’”

    So annex the West Bank then? You Zionist!’

    You won’t annex it, though.

    If you did, the gentile inhabitants would become citizens, and that would make it more troublesome to kill them at will. How would you seize land without compensation? Jail activists without charge?

    The problems would be endless. You couldn’t even maintain a Jewish monopoly on political power — not and continue the pretense that Israel is a democracy.

    Never happen. No fear.

    • Replies: @Lot
  206. nebulafox says:

    The imperative question for the USA is not who is right and who it is wrong.

    It’s what we should do about it.

    My answer: NOTHING! Let the Semites bicker over their crappy little inheritance! If one or both of them wants us to get involved, they should make it worth our while: and given how insoluble that conflict is, the price ought to be damned steep. Until then, let’s kick back our heels, shift our attention and financial resources, and actually get our own country’s ass in gear.

  207. @Art Deco

    ‘To anyone remotely familiar with Israel and Nazi Germany, the notion that the former is an exemplar of the political goals of the latter is unreal.’

    Actually, that does sum it up rather neatly. Israel is an exemplar of many — if not all — the political goals of Nazism. We have the regeneration of a downtrodden people, the seizure of the land to which that people is supposedly entitled, the creation of a national community based on a concept of race, the exclusion of anyone perceived as not being part of that race, the refusal to respect any international authority, the rejection of agreements previously entered into…

    What more could you ask for? Far from being ‘unreal,’ the parallels are compelling. I cannot think of a movement more similar to Nazism than Zionism. Even Italian Fascism would arguably be something of a distant cousin, by comparison.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  208. vinteuil says:
    @nebulafox

    …the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.

    Thucydides was based.

  209. @Art Deco

    ‘You may not be interested in the welfare of their peripheral towns, but they are. This isn’t that difficult.’

    All those fierce bad women and children, unarmed and separated from Israel by nothing more substantial than a twenty foot high concrete wall.

    What choice did Israel have but to shoot them down by the hundred? They were coming right for her.

    Look at those snarling killers. No alternative…

    https://www.google.com/search?q=Razan+al-Najjar&client=safari&hl=en-us&prmd=nvi&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi6uPLgk6fjAhXkPn0KHYNhBoMQ_AUIFygD&biw=991&bih=899#imgrc=xQgnTPbS-YfsEM

  210. “The foreign countries made a conspiracy in their islands [sea/coastal lands]. All at once the lands were removed and scattered in the fray. No land could stand before their arms, from Hatti, Qode, Carchemish, Arzawa and Alasiya on, being cut off one at a time. A camp was set up in one place in Amurru. They desolated its people, and its land was like that which has never come into being. They were coming forward toward Egypt, while the flame was prepared before them. Their confederation was the Peleset, Tjeker, Shekelesh, Denyen, and Weshesh, lands united. They laid their hands upon the land as far as the circuit of the earth, their hearts confident and trusting: `Our plans will succeed!’” — Medinet Habu inscription of Ramses III’s 8th year.
    See Barnett, ‘The Sea Peoples’, Cambridge Ancient History, 1975 for identification of Peleset with Philistines. The “Shekelesh” also came in Merneptah’s reign ~30 years prior, perhaps on their way from or to Sicily.

    The generally accepted view, to my understanding, is that the Philistines went to Canaan from Crete or western Anatolia (cf. Singer ‘The Origin of the Sea Peoples and their Settlement on the Coast of Canaan’, Proc. Society and Economy in the Eastern Mediterranean (c. 1500-1000 B.C.)), likely coming with the collapse of the Late Bronze Age civilizations.

    Of course, the simple fact is that as regards what was happening in Canaan at this time, and what those people had to do with the Late Bronze Age collapse or the Sea Peoples, is unknown. (see J.D. Muhly “The Crisis Years in the Mediterranean World: Transition or Cultural Disintegration?”). We do know the Israelites were named by the Egyptians at least as early as the Merneptah Stele as a people living in Canaan.

    Moving forward ~800 years, this is also interesting, in a “dog that didn’t bark” way –
    Herodotus:
    “For the people of Colchis are evidently Egyptian, and this I perceived for myself before I heard it from others. So when I had come to consider the matter I asked them both; and the Colchians had remembrance of the Egyptians more than the Egyptians of the Colchians; but the Egyptians said they believed that the Colchians were a portion of the army of Sesostris. That this was so I conjectured myself not only because they are dark-skinned and have curly hair (this of itself amounts to nothing, for there are other races which are so), but also still more because the Colchians, Egyptians, and Ethiopians alone of all the races of men have practised circumcision from the first. The Phenicians and the Syrians who dwell in Palestine confess themselves that they have learnt it from the Egyptians, and the Syrians about the river Thermodon and the river Parthenios, and the Macronians, who are their neighbours, say that they have learnt it lately from the Colchians. These are the only races of men who practise circumcision, and these evidently practise it in the same manner as the Egyptians. Of the Egyptians themselves however and the Ethiopians, I am not able to say which learnt from the other, for undoubtedly it is a most ancient custom; but that the other nations learnt it by intercourse with the Egyptians, this among others is to me a strong proof, namely that those of the Phenicians who have intercourse with Hellas cease to follow the example of the Egyptians in this matter, and do not circumcise their children.”
    Herodotus does not call out Jews specifically as a people, but lumps them in either with the Phoenicians, or with the Syrians in Palestine. I suppose it’s not too surprising, coming relatively soon after the Babylonian Captivity.

    Now what does all this have to do with anything? Well, very little. Trying to prove anything useful with archaeology is generally a fool’s errand. On the other hand, I suppose the Mormons are doing some good digging in South America while looking for the 11 other tribes – I do not recommend criticising the motives of people who do good work.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  211. Lot says:
    @Colin Wright

    “You won’t annex it, though.”

    I’m not an Israeli. They can do what they like, but seems to me abandoning the isolated and more provocative Hebron type settlements and keeping the good parts is the way to go.

  212. @Lot

    ‘I’m not an Israeli…’

    Well, of course not. You’re an American couch warrior. Few Jews who had an authentic choice ever moved to Israel — and the numbers who emigrated from the US were always fantastically small.

    That’s another problem with Israel. It’s just a hobby for most of its supporters. All that misery and expense and evil — all for a goddamned hobby. Israel could go away, and the Palestinians could be left in peace, and we could stop fighting hopeless wars, and your life, and Fran Taubman’s life, and all the other Zionists’ lives would go on just fine. You’d probably even be happier, not having that gnawing suspicion deep down inside that you really are on the side of evil after all.

    • Replies: @Shmendrix
  213. Anonymous[492] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Gotta give the devil his due, Bill Clinton arranged a great deal for the Palestinians, but the Arafat/PLO rejected it. Palestinians blew it.

    No one has yet seen a copy of this alleged “deal” nor did Israel ever agree to it. Yet the propagandists blame Arafat.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  214. @Lot

    ‘…They can do what they like, but seems to me abandoning the isolated and more provocative Hebron type settlements and keeping the good parts is the way to go.’

    Au contraire. It’s not the way to go at all. You fail to grasp that continuous conflict is essential to Israel’s continued cohesion.

    Witness the nonsense with Iran. Iran isn’t a threat at all. It’s just that Israel has to have an enemy. Iran could vanish tomorrow — and Israel would just have to find someone else.

    Similarly, there need to be noxious settlers, and continuous clashes with the neighbors they continuously harass and despoil. Israel has to have this. It’s who she is.

  215. Shmendrix says:
    @Chuck

    You misspelled “Judenhassers”. There, fixed that for you.

  216. Anonymous[492] • Disclaimer says:
    @Art Deco

    Because it’s not Israel, any more than Jordan or Egypt or Lebanon is Israel.

    The Gentiles of Palestine will be glad to learn that Zionists no longer consider the West Bank (“Judea” and “Samaria”) and the Golan Heights to be part of Israel.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  217. Anonymous[492] • Disclaimer says:
    @I Have Scinde

    Herodotus does not call out Jews specifically as a people, but lumps them in either with the Phoenicians, or with the Syrians in Palestine.

    In fact, he doesn’t mention them at all. Which suggests they didn’t exist at the time.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  218. gcochran says:
    @Charles Erwin Wilson 3

    If the Israelis lost to some Arab state or coalition, that would be right too. Right?

    • Replies: @frankie p
  219. @utu

    That is pure nonsense, clearly written by someone with little knowledge of Yiddish and less of linguistics.

    • Replies: @utu
  220. LondonBob says:
    @Uncle Remus

    The Controversy of Zion by Douglas Reed. Both the OT and NT are a lot more interesting if you understand the historical and religious context.

  221. Shmendrix says:
    @Colin Wright

    You’re very lucky to live in a time where your obsession and hatred of Jews can be conveniently “legitimized” by supposed political concerns.

    • Troll: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Anon
  222. Logan says:
    @Colin Wright

    Fair enough. Though I think this doesn’t really make a difference. White Americans weren’t “returning” to North America either.

    So two Jewish brothers leave Russia in 1910. One moves to Palestine, the other to St. Louis.

    So why exactly does the Missourian’s descendants have a right to live where they do, but their Israeli cousins don’t?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Colin Wright
  223. utu says:
    @Peter Akuleyev

    The Geography of Jewish Ethnogenesis
    https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/702709

    A reevaluation of the anthropological genetics literature on Jewish populations reveals them not simply to be a body of genetically related people descending from a small group of common ancestors, but rather a “mosaic” of peoples of diverse origins. Greek and other pre-medieval historiographic sources suggest the patterning evident in recent genetic studies could be explained by a major contribution from Greco-Roman and Anatolian-Byzantine converts who affiliated themselves with some iteration of Judaism beginning in the first and second centuries ce and continuing into the Middle Ages. These populations, along with Babylonian and Alexandrian Jewish communities, indigenous North Africans, and Slavic-speaking converts to Judaism, support a mosaic geography of Jewish ancestry in Europe and Western Asia, rather than one arising from a limited set of lineages originating solely in Palestine.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  224. Anon[139] • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous

    Given that Israel, especially in its Old Testament form, is a provable (and proven) mythological (and esoteric) concept I would state that you are well over confident yourself.

    “Some” genetic continuity doesn’t cut it when we are speaking of land inheritance. Most of the West has “some” genetic continuity. We don’t give away any land based on “some” continuity anymore than we give away the Netherlands to Dutch-African mixed populations: whether that consideration for land inheritance is in the name of Jews or Palestinians.

    The Jews are placeholders in Israel until the figurative tribes return to both figurative and literal “Israel”.

    Note: this does not refer to literal (purely) genetically determined tribes of the OT because none of the OT is literal, to include the historical ethnicity of Judah.

    For modern literal Judah, in its entirety, to think that they are the perpetually “chosen” race (complete with land inheritance rights) will be a historically grand act of misinterpretation and heresy that they will realize at the end of time. Some will make it.

    As people with “some” continuity to ancient Judah (a different animal than Israel), place-holding is the role that modern Jews are fit to perform: which is why you are now out of your ghettos (at least in-part). And, no, none of this refers to British Israelism nor any other related concept of purely racial inheritance (though Israel, newly reformed, has obvious genetic implications per the laws of Israel). The meaning of the Old Testament can not be found in the public domain.

  225. Anon[139] • Disclaimer says:
    @Shmendrix

    You’re very lucky to live in a time where your obsession and hatred of Jews can be conveniently “legitimized” by supposed political concerns.

    You’re very lucky to live in a time wherein your obsession and hatred of non Jewish people of European descent can be conveniently “legitimized” through media supported propaganda (that is unfortunately for you an increasing public laughing stock).

    Your also lucky that we live in a very small window of history when the Jewish texts and their hatred of non-Jews is not more widely known as a matter of common knowledge, which prior gave people all the legitimacy anyone requires to despise Jews.

    Can that be the end of meaningless emotional catharsis, or did you want to post more ahistorical and non-factual propaganda about how there is no justification to despise Jews?

    I’d love to get into the modern reasons regarding the Jewish establishment’s role in changing this nation into an ultra violent ethnic and moral shit-hole. Your choice.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Shmendrix
  226. Anon[139] • Disclaimer says:
    @Art Deco

    What a bitch reply: a total avoidance pf confronting valid perspective. Avoidance couched in foundation-free dismissal and utilizing a straw man.

    We may as well be arguing with selfish monkeys running a script. Which, according to the German documentation, is about accurate.

    To anyone remotely familiar with Israel and Nazi Germany, the notion that the former is an exemplar of the political goals of the latter is unreal. This isn’t that difficult.

    Someone from Nigeria could manage a better intellectual response. What a joke your lot is. When widespread Western support of Jews turns from the tense cold war that it is to (surprise) again hostile, you will absolutely have no one to blame but yourselves given responses like yours.

    Your religious texts are worse than the Nazi texts, and your nation indeed operates like a National Socialist State with the exception of some populations that no one mixes with that serve as plausible deniability for the defiant racial inbreds.

    Again: with intellects like yours serving as front line PR, you people are fucked.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  227. Anon[139] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    Netanyahu’s playing a little trick here, pretending the Palestinians are literally Philistines (what they call themselves in Arabic). In reality, I suspect the Palestinians are using that term in its geographic sense: “We were here in the Ottoman province of Palestine before modern Zionism”, not “We’re the descendants of the ancient non-Semitic seafaring people”.

    Its not a trick. The Rabbis hold the Palestinians to be the Philistines: the targets of all of the Biblical instruction against the Philistines (the OT is real time political instruction for the Jews).

    Which is why the Palestinians are under continuous group punishment until their eventual genocide (both determined by the OT). For fun, run a search on “Gaza” in a digital OT.

    Esoterically, there is power in naming a person or tribe. Without that knowledge, a group is likely to adopt the name that Jews long ago awarded them. I suspect Jewish influence within English society is also the reason for the eponym “Ger-man”, (Ger being a Jewish concept for non-Jews), being so far from what the Germans call themselves.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
  228. @OilcanFloyd

    “Abraham was from somewhere on the Arabian Peninsula”

    Ur of the Chaldees, thought by many to be in Southern Iraq.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur_of_the_Chaldees

  229. Jack D says:
    @utu

    This has nothing to do with Peter’s point that classification of Yiddish as a Slavic language with “Germanoid” elements is complete nonsense.

    That the Jews of Europe are not alien Semites but rather mostly European is nice to know after a millenium of being persecuted as an “alien” race. I wish someone had told Herr Hitler about this. But strangely, the Jews always seem to be in the wrong place and in need of expulsion – when they were living in Europe they were Semites who belonged in the Middle East and now that they are in the Middle East they are Europeans who belong back in Europe. Funny that. It’s almost as if anti-Semites don’t want the Jews to exist anywhere.

    • LOL: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @BigDickNick
  230. @Colin Wright

    “You fail to grasp that continuous conflict is essential to Israel’s continued cohesion.”

    Is it also essential to Jewish continued cohesion?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  231. Jack D says:
    @Colin Wright

    Iran isn’t a threat at all.

    I am so glad to hear this. All those tankers that blew up and the drones that were shot down must have been done by someone else. Maybe a Mossad false flag operation? When the Iranians send a proxy to blow up Washington with a suitcase nuke, I’ll remember that they are no threat. Nothing to see here folks, move along.

    The most important thing is that America never get embroiled in any wars, no matter how much it is attacked. This is the same reason we turned the other cheek after the Japs bombed Pearl Harbor. We didn’t let them trick us into helping the Brits, no siree. None of our business.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @JMcG
  232. @Jack D

    yeah, that’s the real takeaway in all of this. Similarly, I got banned from 100 bars in my state and the real problem is, the Big Dick Nick haters won’t let me hang out at bars! No need for self reflection.

  233. Anonymous[722] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot

    I’m not an Israeli. They can do what they like, but seems to me abandoning the isolated and more provocative Hebron type settlements and keeping the good parts is the way to go.

    If you have a “right of return,” you are an Israeli.

  234. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous

    Herodotus also tells us that in Egypt men pee sitting down while the women pee standing up, so he can’t exactly be trusted.

    https://www.livius.org/sources/content/herodotus/egyptian-customs/

    Even if there was a place in the region called Palestine at the time of Herodotus, that name had not been used for many centuries when it was revived by the Romans as part of their campaign to erase Judea. And it sure had nothing to do with the Arabs who call themselves “Palestinians” today. The name “Palestine” has been applied to this region on and off since antiquity (sometimes with gaps of many centuries when it was called something else) but each time it is revived, it refers to a largely different population.

  235. Yngvar says:

    The Trojan War never took place. It’s a legend.

  236. Anonymous[722] • Disclaimer says:
    @Logan

    So why exactly does the Missourian’s descendants have a right to live where they do, but their Israeli cousins don’t?

    In Missouri, the native peoples have equal rights with the descendants. In Israel/Palestine, they do not.

    • Replies: @Logan
  237. Art Deco says:
    @Colin Wright

    Should I actually bother to rebut your sophisms and lies?

    You can’t, because I’m playing it straight, and you’re playing a tape in your head derived from your own pathologies. Too bad for the people around you.

  238. Art Deco says:
    @Anonymous

    The Knesset introduced Israel’s law code into the Golan in 1981, although they didn’t take the territory off the negotiating table. It doesn’t have a large residual Arab population and it’s Arab residents are largely Druze, so there isn’t much to be gained by relinquishing it. In any case, the Syrian government has never been willing to do more than negotiate truces, so they lose it. As for the West Bank, faute de mieux, Israel has been assembling a de facto settlement. Since the Arab brigands who run the PA won’t agree to any comprehensive settlement, that’s the best Israel can do. In the de facto settlement, no territory is annexed, all the larger Arab settlements are left to the PA without qualification while he Jewish settlements and about 150,000 people in Arab settlements are governed by Israel. In between, general government is in the hands of the PA but Israel runs security patrols. You want better, you have to bargain for it. The trouble is, the only thing the Arab locals have to offer Israel is certain intangibles, and those intangibles are the one thing they don’t wish to part with; ya pays ya money and ya takes ya choice.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  239. Art Deco says:
    @Anonymous

    Yes they do. Because he rejected it an launched the 2d intifada. Because he was never bargaining in good faith to begin with.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @Anonymous
  240. Art Deco says:
    @Colin Wright

    Actually, that does sum it up rather neatly. Israel is an exemplar of many — if not all — the political goals of Nazism.

    Only in the mind of people who know nothing of either place.

  241. @Dave Pinsen

    Ur is close to Kuwait, which was/is claimed by Iraq. I don’t think you have to go back to ancient times to see an overlap between what is now called Arabia and the area that is now southern Iraq. If Ur was a Chaldean city the ties to the peninsula are obvious. Ur was supposedly a port city in ancient times, which would place in on the northern end of the peninsula.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  242. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel H

    I remember in the late 90s I used to read a website run by supporters of the late Meir Kahane. The panic and despair of these people was palpable. Then in just a couple of years (2000-1) everything changed.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  243. Jack D says:
    @Art Deco

    The Druze in Golan are interesting because they largely remained loyal to Syria, at least until recently (while the Israeli Druze are good citizens of Israel and even serve in the Israeli military, unlike Israeli Arabs). I think they were concerned that the Israelis would someday cut them loose and anyone who had “collaborated with the enemy” would receive harsh punishment from Assad (meaning REALLY harsh punishment – not just death but excruciating torture and THEN death) when the Syrians returned. However, it’s now been 50 years and the young generation has never experienced rule by the government that they are supposedly loyal to. When things were really falling apart in Syria, there was an uptick in the # of Druze taking Israeli citizenship but I haven’t followed it recently. I would guess that now that Assad’s survival seems certain the #’s have ticked down again.

    Never is a long time but I don’t see the Israelis ever giving up the Golan at this point. There is simply nothing that the Syrians could offer them that would be worth more to them than keeping the Golan. Even an Egyptian style peace wouldn’t be worth it, not that this is realistically on the table with Iran yanking Syria’s strings.

  244. @Logan

    ‘…So why exactly does the Missourian’s descendants have a right to live where they do, but their Israeli cousins don’t?’

    How many billion of dollars in aid does a foreign power need to funnel to the brother in Missouri each year? How many Security Council Resolutions have to be be vetoed to permit his continued residence? How many wars fought in each generation? How many children shot down, houses bulldozed, trees ripped up, wells blocked?

  245. @Jack D

    ‘…I think they were concerned that the Israelis would someday cut them loose…’

    They’re right, of course. The Christians of Lebanon learned that lesson. The Kurds are about to learn it.

    …Then too, nobody likes to be untermenschen in their own land. How many Druze cabinet ministers are there?

    • Replies: @Jack D
    , @Logan
  246. Jack D says:
    @Art Deco

    The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Arafat knew that making a deal would not have been good for his health. Maybe he thought that after beating up the Israelis a bit in the 2nd Intifada they would be willing to sweeten their offer – maybe make it sweet enough that he could continue to live. But he overplayed his hand and ended up with nothing. His tactics had usually been effective with soft, post WWII European powers playing for lower stakes but maybe the Israelis learned something about Middle Eastern negotiating style in their 50+years in the neighborhood and they had more at stake. The main result was to completely discredit the Israeli Left so that no one in Israel will ever offer them as good a deal again. Even those who run opposed to Netanyahu try to look even tougher and more militaristic than he is.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  247. Anonymous[722] • Disclaimer says:
    @Art Deco

    Yes they do. Because he rejected it an launched the 2d intifada.

    Please post a copy of it then so we can evaluate whether it was fair.

    In any case, Palestine cannot “reject” an offer that Israel never made.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  248. nebulafox says:
    @Jack D

    Didn’t Old Man Assad once openly admit toward the end of the Cold War that if he were in charge of Israel, he wouldn’t give an inch on concessions?

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
  249. Anonymous[722] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    Maybe he thought that after beating up the Israelis a bit in the 2nd Intifada they would be willing to sweeten their offer.

    Your post is full of lies. Israel never made a peace offer.

  250. nebulafox says:
    @Jack D

    >I am so glad to hear this. All those tankers that blew up and the drones that were shot down must have been done by someone else.

    The Japanese tankers are fishy, because Japan and Iran get along just fine. Japan doesn’t want to rely off one country too much for its energy needs-obvious historical motives for that-and Iran needs the investment money. So, if it was a false flag, I don’t think it was the Israelis: it’d be a lot more competently executed if it was them. Saudis are too incompetent and lazy (just ask any US military guy who has had to train them) to properly do this kind of thing without leaving a trail, but as the assassination of that journalist should show, that doesn’t mean they don’t try. And the fact that the Saudi Crown Prince would like the US to get rid of his Persian problem on our dime isn’t a secret.

    >We didn’t let them trick us into helping the Brits, no siree.

    Well, British intelligence, combined with German ham-handedness and stupidity, did manage to help us into another war. (I will grant that Germany’s willingness to be a very cooperative antagonist for the UK was not limited to that: had Berlin listened to Hoffman instead of Ludendorff on how to deal with a defeated Russia, the propaganda of the lawless Hun would have been a lot harder to justify.) They didn’t cause it, of course, the progressive hyper-Anglophile UMC intellectuals in the United States-the neocons of their day-did, but foreign intelligence nevertheless helped give them their excuse. Didn’t hurt that a lot of guys on Wall Street would have been massively out of pocket if London was forced to cut a deal with Berlin rather than go for absolute victory.

    So, no, it wouldn’t be the first time that a foreign power used US politics to their advantage to get us to launch an intervention that left a dubious result, to say the least. Maybe we ought to be a little careful to make sure it doesn’t happen again rather than engaging in the perennial Beltway game of overinflating Iranian capabilities.

  251. Trutherator says: • Website
    @LondonBob

    It’s a fool’s errand to desperately blunder around looking for a history more faithful to the facts than the Bible.

  252. nebulafox says:
    @Colin Wright

    >Au contraire. It’s not the way to go at all. You fail to grasp that continuous conflict is essential to Israel’s continued cohesion.

    No, it isn’t. Average Israelis are like average people everywhere: they want to have ordinary, peace and order-filled lives that don’t center around geopolitics. Perpetual war doesn’t achieve that. People don’t like seeing mangled relatives come home from a conflict that never seems to end. They’d probably be overjoyed to have it end if the Palestinians would be willing to accept reality.

    >Similarly, there need to be noxious settlers, and continuous clashes with the neighbors they continuously harass and despoil. Israel has to have this. It’s who she is.

    I take a dim view of American hasbara fanboys who advocate that Washington should spend billions to subsidize the defense of Israeli conquests, but dude, you are seriously irrational about Israel. Israel’s behavior is far from all that offensive on global, let alone historical standards. Do the Palestinians get a raw deal in some ways? Yes. But vae victis remains the eternal principle of geopolitical life. If were the other way around, I don’t think the Arabs would be near as merciful-or near as good at running the place.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  253. GW says:
    @Paul

    Well, yes it’s all spelled out in Exodus.

  254. @Jack D

    When a land is conquered by invaders, sometimes the invader kills or expels the entire population, especially the males, but in other cases they allow them (especially the females) to stay and adopt the religion and customs of the conquerors. And other times (supposedly this was required but not always observed under Islam in the case of conquered Christians and Jews) you are allowed to stay and keep your religion and culture as a subject people. There is no general rule.

    Spot on.

    Applied to the squabbles in Israel it seems likely that pretty much everyone there is descendant from the ancient Israelites. Relative amounts? … who the heck knows. Need to actually get some data.

    There is no general rule.

    Agree. I do think there’s a few basic buckets:

    — Hunter gathers
    The fight is primarily over hunting-gathering territory.
    Generally, you just slaughter all the men and take the young women.

    — Agriculturalists replacing hunter-gatherers.
    This is just a push-out fight. The hunter-gatherers will continue to raid until they are gone/leave, so generally the ags have to kill them all to win. The proportion of hunter-gatherer women who can actually be taken usefully may be low. (And there may be a racial element limiting it.)
    (Ancient settlement of Europe by EEFs; Bantu expansion; modern settlement of North America, Australia.)

    — Mobile barbarians conquering agricultural people.
    They’ll kill any resisting men, and will be generous–to themselves–in taking and enjoying women. But tend to decided to become a replacement elite on top of existing agricultural substrate. So Y-chromosome replacement will be larger but can vary widely from a bit to almost complete male replacement.
    (Indo-Europeans–steppe invasions of Europe and India; Viking conquests; Genghis Khan.)

    — Imperial conquest
    Generally the goal here is to expand the glory–i.e. tax base–of the empire.
    Conquerors take control of land and may choose to help themselves to local women, may even simply marry into conquered elite families for simplicity/legitimacy. But basically it’s elite replacement. The agricultural tax base which is the true target just rolls on demographically. So demographic impact is generally small and may be tiny.
    (Roman Empire, Norman conquest of England, Ottoman Empire, Mughal conquest of India. etc.
    British India and other European African and Asian colonies are at the far extreme of having basically no demographic impact. The point was really intra-European commercial/political power and in the age of steam colonial administrators could bring wives or go back home to have families.)

    (Spanish conquest of the Americas is a mix of this item and the ags replacing barbarians one. Where there were existing ag empires–Aztec, Inca–more of the indigenous population survived as agricultural labor. Other places it was more like settlement. But there was significant demographic impact–dominant in Y-chromosome–everywhere.)

    • Agree: Lot
    • Replies: @Logan
  255. Art Deco says:
    @OilcanFloyd

    Ancient Ur is about 200 miles from modern Kuwait City. Kuwait prior to 1949 was a settlement devoted to fishing (esp. Pearl harvesting). Ur and modern Nasariyah are in locations passably suited to irrigated agriculture.

    • Replies: @OilcanFloyd
  256. Art Deco says:
    @Anonymous

    The notion the offer was never made is your personal fiction.

  257. Art Deco says:
    @Jack D

    There were tactical reasons to keep the territory. The terrain made for security problems prior to 1967. IIRC, Israel accepts applications for citizenship from Golan and Jerusalem Arabs, something it doesn’t do for those on the West Bank or Gaza. From Jerusalem Arabs, the applications are usually rejected. Don’t believe that’s so in re Golan Arabs. If I’m not mistaken, Golan Arabs also have broader permissions about where they can settle than do Jerusalem Arabs. (Jerusalem Arabs are confined to metro Jerusalem if they wish to retain their residency status). It’s been policy in Israel for some time to fully incorporate the territory, which it never was for Gaza and hasn’t been for most of the West Bank.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  258. Logan says:
    @Colin Wright

    It is not accurate to say these entities are clearly fictional. There is all kinds of archeological evidence for the existence of the kingdoms of Judah and Israel.

    Were they exactly as depicted in the OT? Maybe not, but that’s quite different from claiming they were entirely fictional.

    Your five hundred year date would put them well into the Hasmonean period, which is well documented both archeologically and historically. Were the Hasmoneans fictional also?

  259. Jack D says:
    @Colin Wright

    At least the Israelis aren’t dropping barrel bombs on their head the way Assad does to his own population. You aren’t in Kansas anymore, Dorothy. The way that Israelis treat the Druze is horrible (no Druze cabinet ministers!) except that compared to the way that religious and ethnic minorities get treated in the rest of the region it’s like heaven.

  260. Logan says:
    @AnotherDad

    I think you may be forgetting the impact of disease on demography. The conquistadors certainly wanted to keep themselves as the elite in an imperial conquest over the ag base. But 90% of the ags died from disease, which put a real crimp in their plans.

    The Mongols also totally depopulated massive areas of their conquests. Central Asia and Mesopotamia had been centers of civilization for four or five thousand years when the Mongols rolled in. It can be argued they still haven’t fully recovered, almost a thousand years later.

    There is a famous but possibly apocryphal story about the Mongols planning to kill the entire Chinese population to make room for their herds. But a wise Chinese scholar adviser convinced them, accurately, that it would be more profitable to raise Chinese on those lands than animals.

  261. Logan says:
    @Colin Wright

    With 1.6% of the population, how many Cabinet ministers do you think they should have?

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Anonymous
  262. Jack D says:
    @Art Deco

    Of course the fact that it’s the Golan HEIGHTS makes all the difference to its strategic value. If you could lop 3,000 feet off the area then it would be a different story but you can’t.

    The fact that the local Arab population is relatively small and that there is little realistic hope of ever making any sort of deal with dictator Assad (who himself elicits no international sympathy ) means that the Israelis don’t have to even pretend that they are going to give it back someday. They conquered it fair and square and that’s it. If it had been the other way around Assad would have treated any Jews that came into his hands a million times worse.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  263. @Art Deco

    We are splitting hairs here. Some people consider Iraq to be on the Arabian Peninsula. https://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/asia/arabian.htm

    I don’t think whatever separates Ur from the Arabian Peninsula in the minds of some negates my entire post.

    I thought Abraham was from somewhere on the Arabian Peninsula. Either way, ancient Jews weren’t the first people in the place they call their Holy Land, and it’s more likely that Palestinians have a link to the earlier inhabitants of the region than Jews from all over the world.

    One thing that is very obvious in Israel is that Israeli Jews are a collection of many different peoples who look very different from one another, while most Palestinians fit a general type that looks Middle Eastern or Mediterranean.

    Whatever claim Jews as a group can make about descent from the inhabitants of ancient Israel, individual Jews generally carry lots of admixture from the places that their ancestors inhabited. If their faces reveal anything about their DNA, then Jews are a very mixed group of people.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  264. Anonymous[124] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    the Jewish texts and their hatred of non-Jews is not more widely known as a matter of common knowledge, which prior gave people all the legitimacy anyone requires to despise Jews.

    Could you give some examples or references for further reading of Jewish texts?

  265. @nebulafox

    ‘…I’m no hasbara, but dude, you seriously are irrational about Israel. Israel’s behavior is far from especially offensive on global, let alone historical standards…’

    You’re kidding, right?

    ‘…Israel was singled out in 2007 as a top espionage threat against the U.S. government, including its intelligence services, in a newly published National Security Agency (NSA) document obtained by fugitive leaker Edward Snowden, according to a news report Monday.

    The document also identified Israel…as a “leading threat” to the infrastructure of U.S. financial and banking institutions…’

    https://www.newsweek.com/israel-flagged-top-spy-threat-us-new-snowdennsa-document-262991

    Israel has admitted to bombing US facilities in Egypt (the Lavon Affair), attempted to sink a US ship, killing 34 American sailors (the USS Liberty) in an attack the then-US Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, among others, was convinced was deliberate, stolen nuclear material from us, sold our technology to the Chinese, masqueraded as CIA agents and bombed mosques in Iran.

    Although Israel represents barely a tenth of one percent of the world’s population, Israel is the global leader in the international illegal human organ trade, a global leader in the white slave trade, and to cite just one example, milked an estimated one hundred billion dollars from gullible — but only foreign — investors via the ‘binary options’ scam in the first decade of this century. She is a major, and utterly ruthless, criminal actor, preying indiscriminately on friend and foe alike.

    She maneuvered us into a pointless, futile, and extremely expensive invasion of Iraq by feeding us false intelligence, and is currently trying to do the same with Iran — an enterprise that would make Iraq look like a good idea.

    And you think Israel’s behavior is ‘far from especially offensive on a global scale.’ Assuming you actually mean that, I suggest you wake up.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  266. Anonymous[124] • Disclaimer says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    “You fail to grasp that continuous conflict is essential to Israel’s continued cohesion.”

    Is it also essential to Jewish continued cohesion?

    Probably.

  267. Anonymous[124] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    I remember in the late 90s I used to read a website run by supporters of the late Meir Kahane. The panic and despair of these people was palpable. Then in just a couple of years (2000-1) everything changed.

    What were they concerned about?

  268. @Jack D

    ‘…If it had been the other way around Assad would have treated any Jews that came into his hands a million times worse.’

    Actually, and ironically, a casual look suggests that the Syrian government has treated its Jews about the same as Israel has treated its Arabs.

    It’s the same pattern of harassment, deprivation of rights, episodic expulsions, and occasional murder. Not much to choose between them, really.

    Of course, we don’t subsidize Syria. Nor do we protect it from international action. Nor have we invited its leader to address Congress and given him seventeen standing ovations.

    Why don’t we treat Israel the way we treat Syria? I think that’s an excellent idea.

    Mankind would thank us.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  269. Logan says:
    @nebulafox

    Seems so to me. I just think it’s hilarious that Americans can, with a straight face, say that Israelis have no right to live where they do because they are not descended from the original inhabitants, leaving aside whether that statement is true or not.

    It’s also pretty funny, from the other side of the issue, when American apologists for Israel claim the Palestinians aren’t really “a people.” There was a time, not all that long ago, when Americans weren’t “a people.” Every people had an origin. It’s called ethnogenesis. Some are just farther in the past.

  270. Logan says:
    @Jack D

    I do believe the Israelis don’t have to resort to improvised barrel bombs, having somewhat more sophisticated weaponry available.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  271. Logan says:
    @Anonymous

    Israeli Arabs have most if not all of the rights of Israeli Jews, certainly more than Arabs in any of the adjoining countries have.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Anonymous
  272. @Jack D

    ‘…At least the Israelis aren’t dropping barrel bombs on their head the way Assad does to his own population. You aren’t in Kansas anymore, Dorothy…’

    Wake me up when it’s us rushing Saddam Hussein more barrel bombs — the way we send Israel more cluster bombs when she uses them on the civilians she targets.

  273. Jack D says:
    @Colin Wright

    a casual look suggests that the Syrian government has treated its Jews about the same as Israel has treated its Arabs.

    Must be a very casual look. The once numerous Jewish community of Syria no longer exists because they all fled for their lives. There are almost 2 million Arabs in Israel – they are free to leave at any time but they don’t want to because Israel is the richest, best governed country (the only democracy) in the region. If you think the treatment of Jews in Syria and Arabs in Israel is equivalent then you must be blinded by your hatred of Jews.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  274. @Logan

    ‘Israeli Arabs have most if not all of the rights of Israeli Jews, certainly more than Arabs in any of the adjoining countries have.’

    There was a case where an Israeli army reservist boarded a bus in Israel, ordered all the Arabs off the bus at gun point, lined them up, and shot them.

    Then he waited for the police. Obviously, there was no choice but to convict.

    He got five years, later reduced to three — but it gets worse. Somewhat awkwardly, he was killed in an auto accident while he was supposedly ‘in prison.’

    Israeli Arabs have fewer rights than a dog does in other countries.

    • Replies: @Shmendrix
    , @Art Deco
  275. Jack D says:
    @Logan

    You’re right, but in any event the Israel government would never dream of bombing its own people as Assad does.

  276. @Jack D

    ‘…they don’t want to because Israel is the richest, best governed country (the only democracy) in the region…’

    ? Israel isn’t a democracy. She denies the franchise to about a third of the population she rules.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  277. @Jack D

    ‘You’re right, but in any event the Israel government would never dream of bombing its own people as Assad does.’

    Ahem. Israel regards Gaza as under her control — just try going in or out without her permission.

    Israel most certainly bombs the inhabitants of Gaza. Regularly, vigorously, and with every sign of keen enjoyment.

  278. Jack D says:
    @Colin Wright

    The Lavon Affair was in 1954. If you go back a little further, an Israeli also betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

  279. frankie p says:
    @gcochran

    “When” the Israelis lose to some Arab state or coalition,…

    Not “If” the Israelis lose to some Arab state or coalition…

  280. @Jack D

    Well the Jews certainly have a lot of someone else’s muscle. They always have.

  281. Gordo says:

    You stirred a bit with this post Steve 😉

  282. @Jack D

    You’re right, but in any event the Israel government would never dream of bombing its own people as Assad does.

    That would depend on what they consider “their own people”. Assad, as an Alawite himself, would probably not bomb fellow Alawites (a 10% minority, at best, in Syria). But Sunni Arabs, who consider Alawites infidels or even apostates to be killed on sight? Robert Kaplan likened the Sunni Arab reaction to the Alawite rise to power in Syria to “an untouchable becoming maharajah in India or a Jew becoming tsar in Russia—an unprecedented development shocking to the Sunni majority population which had monopolized power for so many centuries”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawites

    As a tiny and perpetually embattled minority in a sea of murderous Sunni Arabs who would see them killed to the last man, woman and child, the Alawites cannot rely on a handful of Deir Yassins to drive the Sunni Arabs out of Syria. They need Deir Yassins on an industrial scale. That is the meaning of the gas attacks and indiscriminate dropping of bombs on ostensibly civilian areas.

    Sunni Arabs being Sunni Arabs, civilians are probably being used as human shields to protect ammo dumps and the like. Then there’s the fact that the Syrian economy in the areas that Assad nominally controls, due to the effects of a decade-long war, probably lacks the wherewithal to pay for anything more sophisticated than barrel bombs.

    But in a civil war, the economic aspect is just as important as the military. Allowing guerrillas to nickel and dime you means a permanently militarized society that will eventually drive your regime out of power, due to economic distortions imposed on the economy by permanent war that will eventually prevent the regime from paying its soldiers or purchasing military supplies. That is why Assad is resorting to collective punishment, Deir Yassin-style. To stay in power, and keep his people (the Alawites) from being slaughtered, he needs to give as good as his people will get if he is driven from power. He can fly out on his private jet. His people can’t.

    • Agree: Lot, nebulafox
    • Replies: @nebulafox
  283. Anonymous[124] • Disclaimer says:
    @Logan

    Israeli Arabs have most if not all of the rights of Israeli Jews, certainly more than Arabs in any of the adjoining countries have.

    Arab Israelis are second-class citizens, and their formal rights vary depending on where they reside. Those residing in Judea, Samaria, Golan, and Gaza are especially disenfranchised.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  284. @Anon

    I suspect Jewish influence within English society is also the reason for the eponym “Ger-man”, (Ger being a Jewish concept for non-Jews), being so far from what the Germans call themselves.

    Nothing to do with the latin word Germania, then?

  285. Anonymous[124] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    You’re right, but in any event the Israel government would never dream of bombing its own people as Assad does.

    Right. They would rather bomb the goyim.

  286. Anonymous[124] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    ? Israel isn’t a democracy. She denies the franchise to about a third of the population she rules.

    Exactly.

  287. @Logan

    ‘With 1.6% of the population, how many Cabinet ministers do you think they should have?’

    Well, Palestinians in general make up about 20% of the population of pre-1967 Israel — and about 40% of the total population Israel rules.

    There are twenty eight ministers in the Israeli cabinet — and Israel changes cabinets pretty frequently. Every three years?

    So I’d guess over the seventy years Israel has been in existence, there have been at least several hundred cabinet ministers. That seems like a conservative figure.

    How many of them have been Palestinian at all? Not just Druze in particular — but Palestinian of any flavor? Christian, Druze, other Muslim?

  288. @Anonymous

    ‘Arab Israelis are second-class citizens, and their formal rights vary depending on where they reside.’

    …and their actual rights are less than their formal rights.

    Of course.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  289. @Colin Wright

    ‘Arab Israelis are second-class citizens, and their formal rights vary depending on where they reside.’

    …and their actual rights are less than their formal rights.

    Of course.’

    That reminds me. A decade or so back there was a New York City Jew of unusual tastes who literally used to travel to the West Bank to take murdercations.

    He killed several Palestinians over the years — the Israeli police were aware of his activities but for some time did nothing. Eventually, though, they did arrest him.

    He had a go at killing a Jew, you see. So they charged him with one of his actual murders.

  290. Shmendrix says:
    @Anon

    No hate here, sorry to inform you. Hate is a sickness that you choose. It’s a waste of energy, not to mention a self-perpetuating source of negativity. Wallow in it if you want; I’ve got better things to do.

  291. Shmendrix says:
    @Colin Wright

    My Arab doctor, pharmacist, car mechanic and favorite supermarket cashier (to name just a few), not to mention former Supreme Court Justice Salim Joubran might disagree.

    But hey, Colin, you’re the “expert”. It’s so easy to sit half a world away and hate an entire people you know only from your fevered, twisted imagination and like-minded haters.

    You should really consider seeking professional help.

  292. Shmendrix says:

    You can’t make this stuff up!

  293. JMcG says:
    @Jack D

    Jack, there is only one nuclear power in the Middle East. One whose nuclear weapons were built with fissionable material stolen from the United States. One who attacked and attempted to sink a United States Navy ship in international waters.

  294. Anonymous[124] • Disclaimer says:
    @Logan

    With 1.6% of the population, how many Cabinet ministers do you think they should have?

    You should ask JackD.

  295. nebulafox says:
    @Johann Ricke

    The Syrian regime has always reflected the precarious position of Alawites in that country. Even on ME dictatorship standards, they ran a paranoid ship, especially when the old man was in charge. I remember reading the Mitrokhin Archives as a teenager: the Soviet notes on how tight the security apparatus in Syria and the deep roots this had in Syria’s demographics stands out in my mind to this day.

    Of course, the rather un-PC thing to note is precisely because they themselves are a despised minority, the Alawites play relatively nice with the other despised minorities: Christians, Kurds, etc.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
  296. nebulafox says:
    @Jack D

    >At least the Israelis aren’t dropping barrel bombs on their head the way Assad does to his own population.

    Well, what would you have had Assad Senior do, Jack, let the MB take over the country? He didn’t have the relative luxury of ruling Jews.

    Had there been a Hama like event in 2012 nipping things in the bud, it would have saved a lot of lives that the civil war has taken in the long haul.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  297. @nebulafox

    Even on ME dictatorship standards, they ran a tight, paranoid ship

    The dictionary definition of paranoid includes the adjectives “irrational” and “delusional”. Given the constant danger of sectarian revolt, principally from the (pre-war) 70% majority Sunni Arabs, I wouldn’t call the Alawite rulers of Syria paranoid.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  298. @nebulafox

    ‘Had there been a Hama like event in 2012 nipping things in the bud, it would have saved a lot of lives that the civil war has taken in the long haul.’

    See Hillary Clinton’s emails on why we were promoting civil war in Syria.

    Had Israel and ourselves not done all we could to prolong and worsen the civil war in Syria, it would have saved a lot of lives.

    Whatever the genesis of the Syrian civil war, there came a point where we were obviously simply arming Salafi terrorists so as to prolong Syria’s descent into blood-soaked anarchy.

    This suited Israel’s agenda just fine, as she always wants only the worst for her neighbors. Of course, it didn’t do anyone else any good, and was essentially profoundly evil. It’s not nice to promote strife and bloodshed for its own sake.

    There’s some consolation in the thought that it’s massively backfired; Assad was forced to turn to Iran and Hezbollah for help, further improving the position of both those parties. However, that doesn’t do any of the victims whose deaths we made possible any good.

  299. Art Deco says:
    @Anon

    This isn’t that difficult. Just delineating the social composition of Israel v. inter-war Germany, the political forms, the political culture, the aims of public policy, the warp and woof of daily life would be sufficient. You and Wright fancy there is some virtuosity involved in saying bizarre things, as if those of us with more pedestrian minds simply cannot appreciate your brilliance. It’s transparent, asinine, and of no value, as are you.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  300. Art Deco says:
    @OilcanFloyd

    I’m not splitting hairs. North of 95% of the population of Kuwait lives in Kuwait City. I think there are little dorps at oases where dates are grown, but otherwise there’s no agriculture there and the only rural populations have been transhumant Bedouin. Not sure anyone lived there in ancient times. Iraq has had agricultural settlement and urban development for over 5,000 years. Its landscape is an artifact. Also, the dialects spoken in Iraq and Kuwait are in different taxa of vernacular Arabic.

    One thing that is very obvious in Israel is that Israeli Jews are a collection of many different peoples who look very different from one another,

    The many different peoples have constructed a political society which functions satisfactorily. Other than Shas, the communally-based parties in Israel represent Arabs (and only a modest minority of Sephardic Jews cast ballots for Shas).

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  301. Art Deco says:
    @Colin Wright

    The incident you’re referring to occurred more than 60 years ago and the villagers in question were shot by border police because they were in violation of a shoot-on-sight curfew.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  302. nebulafox says:
    @Johann Ricke

    Well, I’ve never been one to describe paranoia as necessarily irrational: certainly not in this case, as I 100% agree with your characterization of the Assad regime.

    But if the dictionary says it, I’ll change the word. I don’t know. What’s a good word for entirely rational hyper-suspicion?

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
  303. @Art Deco

    ‘The incident you’re referring to occurred more than 60 years ago and the villagers in question were shot by border police because they were in violation of a shoot-on-sight curfew.’

    I wasn’t referring to that incident at all.

    …but thanks for bringing it up. The shoot-on-site curfew was ‘imposed’ while the men were out working in the fields. The Jews then deployed around the village — and made sure none of the women escaped to warn the men.

    Then, when the men came in from the fields at the end of the day, the Jews shot them down.

    Pretty clever, huh? Of course, this leaves aside the minor detail that shooting somebody isn’t really an appropriate response to violating a curfew in the first place.

    …in civilized societies, anyway.

  304. @Art Deco

    ‘…Other than Shas, the communally-based parties in Israel represent Arabs…’

    [Avigdor Lieberman] ‘is the founder and leader of the secular-nationalist Yisrael Beiteinu party, whose electoral base are overwhelmingly Russian-speaking immigrants from the former Soviet Union…’

    Well, that didn’t last long.

  305. @Art Deco

    ‘…It’s transparent, asinine, and of no value, as are you.’

    Zionists are usually reduced to hurling personal abuse in fairly short order. I’m not sure if it’s because their cause is so indefensible, or because they’re just not very bright.

    Both? After all, intelligent Jews tend to just avoid the subject, in my experience. As I’ve mentioned before, the only Zionist who’s ever favorably impressed me with his intelligence is Shmuel Rosner.

  306. @Jack D

    ‘You’re right, but in any event the Israel government would never dream of bombing its own people as Assad does.’

    What was that ship full of Jewish immigrants the Haganah or whoever blew up?

    As I recall, quite a few Jews were killed.

    Ah yes. From the Jewish Virtual Library:

    ‘…Haganah sank the British transport “Empire Lifeguard” in Haifa harbor as it was discharging 300 Jewish immigrants who had officially been admitted to Palestine under quota. Sixty-five immigrants were killed and 40 were wounded…’

    Then too, quite a few Jews were killed in the bombing of the King David Hotel. This leaves aside more obscure incidents in Iraq et al.

    It would appear Zionists can dream of bombing their own people. They do.

  307. My, this is a target-rich environment. Do keep coming.

  308. Palestinians are probably descendants of the Christian Jews who did not revolt against Rome, and were accordingly not dispersed after the failure of the Jewish revolts.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  309. MBlanc46 says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    No such thing as right if history. Did you take it? Can you hold it? It’s yours.

  310. @John Gruskos

    ‘Palestinians are probably descendants of the Christian Jews who did not revolt against Rome, and were accordingly not dispersed after the failure of the Jewish revolts.’

    There was no expulsion of the Jews from Palestine. That’s a myth.

  311. @nebulafox

    Well, I’ve never been one to describe paranoia as necessarily irrational: certainly not in this case, as I 100% agree with your characterization of the Assad regime.

    But if the dictionary says it, I’ll change the word. I don’t know. What’s a good word for entirely rational hyper-suspicion?

    Re Sunni Arabs – Assad’s refusing to take them back. The current estimate is 6m refugees, most of them Sunni Arab.

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/05/russias-payback-will-be-syrias-reconstruction-money/

    Assad had better hurry in his attempt to evict the remaining 8m Sunni Arabs before the EU’s open door to refugees slams shut.

  312. @nebulafox

    Didn’t Old Man Assad once openly admit toward the end of the Cold War that if he were in charge of Israel, he wouldn’t give an inch on concessions?

    Thanks to the Holocaust, which means the West will, with absolute certainty, either come to Israel’s rescue, or take in every single Israeli refugee, Israelis have a guaranteed escape hatch, if Israel looks like it might be overrun. Alawites don’t have this option.

  313. vinteuil says:
    @nebulafox

    better:

    The strong act as they will. The weak suffer what they must.

  314. bucky says:
    @BigDickNick

    I feel that this is hasbara.

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