The reason for the difference in mtDNA and Y-DNA data is obvious in hindsight: there was strong sex bias in Bronze Age migrations. In other words, those who migrated were predominantly male and, therefore, those gene flows do not really show up in the mtDNA data.

Warriors do tend to be male.

Apparently, the ancient Indo-European speaking peoples who invaded India in those distant far-off days were, originally at least, closer genetic relations of such living populations as modern Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Lithuanians etc than to modern Indians.
Even living Britons are closer relations to them than modern Indians are.

…stream into India sometime around 2,000 BC – 1,500 BC when the Indus Valley civilisation came to an end, bringing with them Sanskrit and a distinctive set of cultural practices

Was that streaming a cause or effect, or both, in the Indus Valley civilization coming to an end? Where did they come from, where did they go, did they dance like Cotton Eyed Joe? IE influences are felt and seen in many places.

The comments on the original article are interesting. It’s weird how some will call racist when it’s pure science.

“Y-chromosomes (or chromosomes that are transmitted through the male parental line, from father to son)”

For whom was this written? Can’t wait to read this publication’s article on gravity (that thing keeping your ass on the ground).

The best push-back comment from the comments section of that article in The Hindu:

“Scientific Rascism” is an 18th century European science. One thought that it was mercifully killed with the UNESCO resolution of 1950.

Thank goodness for UNESCO resolutions. Where would scientific progress be without them?

Just based on looks you have many of the upper caste Indians who look like Persians. Looks wise they are interchangeable. Millions of wacky-Pakis too who in normal sunlight can pass for Italian but not Czechoslovak.

At this point wouldn’t it just save time to discard every idea about race formed in the last century and pick up where we left off around 1910? The process of arriving at overwhelming evidence that they were right all along is going to take ages and the Chinese don’t have that kind of baggage.

How can that not be a parody post? I mean, they could’ve referenced Stephen Jay Gould or the March of Progress, but UNESCO? That’s thanking the United Colors of Benetton.

I never understood why linguistic similarities allowed us to conclude similarity of race. All it seems to suggest is proximity, interaction, and influence. Lot of different races in the same area spoke the same or similar languages.

Its like future archeologists, after the Catastrophe, will conclude that people in Hong Kong and England were part of some great original race.

Maybe I’m missing something. Can someone explain why it isn’t a leap to posit an Indo-Aryan race based on linguistic similarity?

This isn’t all that “surprising” or “shocking” outside of India. The reason why it remains controversial in the subcontinent is because of the political priorities of right-wing Hindu nationalism. Unlike right-wing nationalists outside the continent, who often celebrate the Aryan conquerors, Hindu nationalists usually deny the Aryan invasions, since affirming their existence would make it much harder to claim that Abrahamic faiths like Islam and Christianity are “invasive”, anti-Indian, foreign threats. If Indo-European speakers really did conquer the subcontinent, then pretty much everyone in India is a descendant of invaders, not just Muslims. That’s why this article in The Hindu needs to preface its argument by pointing out how shocking it appears to be, and it’s why there’s so much pushback in the comments from Indian readers.

Hindu nationalism isn’t the only right-wing ideology refuted by these findings, incidentally. Modern HBD-infused Euro-American nationalism is in the same boat as its subcontinental counterpart, if for different reasons. Contrary to what 19th and 20th century figures like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hitler, Rushton, and Lynn expected, there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence, even though, as this article observes, “the ANI [Ancestral North Indian; i.e., Aryan] ancestry [is] higher in traditionally upper caste and Indo-European speakers.”

That reminds me of the best question to ask a feminist: When in history have two armies of women fought each other?

Basically these researchers are using ancient DNA from ancient bones, uncovered in the full archaeological context, together with corroborating evidence from excavated archaeological artifacts to put the people in the context of the culture – cultures which were reliably allocated to particular epochs and civilizations by means of their cultural attributes, such as distinctive religious rituals, remains of wooden wheels, weapons etc.

The breakthrough was modern DNA technology which enabled the actual genetic relationships of these long dead people to become a matter of fact – and not conjecture.

If you have been held back by the white man you have the right to open a casino.

Oi, boy .

bored identity can Godwinize this forum all day along:

“Ya’ll Do Know who also was proponent of the idea that ancient swastika-luvin’ Aryans were syncopated-sanskrtitizing conquerors of Euro-DNAsian geopolitical realm?”

In conclusion:

Bret Stephens’ haploid cesspool is on the Wrong Side of Science.

There’s an interesting lecture on the Aryan influence in India by the great yogi Vivekananda in 1896:

http://ramakrishnavivekananda.info/vivekananda/volume_9/lectures_and_discourses/history_of_the_aryan_race.htm

He praises the original work by Welsh judge/scholar William Jones, and German scholarship in starting to shed light on the subject. Lots of interesting tidbits:

Indian Rajas go and perform Mohammedan ceremonies and enter Mohammedan mosques, although [some] Mohammedans took the first opportunity to kill a number of “the heathens”.

Where “[some]” is a politically correct editorial insertion. Some things never change.

The peculiarity you find is that the Semitic races and the Egyptians try to preserve the dead bodies, while the Aryans try to destroy them. The Greeks, the Germans, the Romans — your ancestors before they became Christians — used to burn the dead. It was only when Charlemagne made you Christians with the sword — and when you refused, [he] cut off a few hundred heads, and the rest jumped into the water — that burying came here. You see at once the metaphysical significance of burning the dead. The burying of the dead (Preserving the dead by the burying of the body.) can only remain when there is no idea of the soul, and the body is all. At best there came the idea later on that this very body will have another lease of life, after so many years — mummies will come out and begin to walk the streets again.

But with the Aryans the idea was from the first that the soul is not the body, but would live on. There are some old hymns in the Rig-Veda: when the bodies are burnt they say, “Take him gently, purify him, give him a bright body, take him to the land where the fathers live — where there is no more sorrow and where there is joy forever”. (Rig-Veda 10.16.4.)

400+ years after Alexander the Great’s brief invasion of India, there were still Greek-speaking kingdoms in Pakistan and India that worshiped Greek gods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom

Here is an amazing image of one of the Indo-Greek kings.

I don’t understand why abject Euro-Whites suffer from this OCD about “Aryans”.

Instead of such useless endeavours such as finding correlation between penis size and IQ, Euro-Whites would do better to find a cure for Wewuzkangzosis pathologicalis.

At least success in the latter would mean a few less world wars.

Speaking of IQ, the Proto-Indo-Europeans (and their bronze age progeny) were unmitigated savages who didn’t have the IQ to build any civilization anywhere.

“Aryans” became Kangz because of the diligence of Dravidians of the Indus Valley.
Persians became Kangz because of the diligence of Elamites.
Romans became Kangz because of the diligence of Etruscans.
Greeks became Kangz because of the diligence of Minoans.

Wherever Indo-Euros couldn’t find a civilizations to parasitise, they remained in their barbaric state of existence, just like the Celts and Teutons and Slavs and Tocharians.

They were the ultimate welfare-parasites of their time. Much like Turks in Germany today.

But hey, Turkics were even better than “Aryan” Indo-Euros in the invasion business. Look at what the Oghuz Turkmens did to Anatolia. This is the same thing they’ll do to Germany.

Perhaps then, in a not so distant future, Euro-Whites would masturbate thinking of their connection to Genghiz and Hulagu, just as the other commenters are masturbating now to “Aryans”.

In fact, Hungarians have already started fapping themselves.

Seems that Mitra and Varuna are not without a sense of irony.

A founding myth of the Lombards (believed by them to mean Long-Beards) was that when they migrated out of Sweden into Germany, they were confronted by a larger local army. To make their force look bigger, they had the women tie their hair around their face to look like beards.

More accurate sources describing the ancient German way of war states the women, while not actually fighting, would go the battlefield to cheer their men on.

Contrary to what 19th and 20th century figures like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hitler, Rushton, and Lynn expected, there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence

This isn’t entirely surprising, given that the entire point of caste was to entrench the invading Aryans among the elites. The lack of meritocracy (i.e. sorting by ability) meant that smart Dravidians in lower castes had no route to advancement, and a compelling reason to embrace non-Hindu religions that offered them this route. If not for the East India Company, India might well be a Muslim country today.

The real question now, that I am sure is on a lot of minds, is what exactly did these Aryans look like ? Did they look like something that would have satisfied Third Reich idealists or would they have looked more like people look like in Iran ?

there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence

Your link does not provide evidence of it. A few posts down are a ton of Indian IQ studies with results all over the map, 107 this 73 that.

Lacking good idea, common sense tells us Parsis and merchant castes will have higher than mean IQs, and the primitive phenotype tribes probably have genetic IQs in line with other primitive Asian groups like Papuans and Australian Aborigines.

But can DNA studies tell us whether the Aryan invaders spoke with bad Churmann accents?

If you had bothered to follow the thread. You would have found a link to this source. Please read next time so you don’t waste my time.

Apparently, the ancient Indo-European speaking peoples who invaded India in those distant far-off days were, originally at least, closer genetic relations of such living populations as modern Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Lithuanians etc than to modern Indians.

Surviving on the border of Europe a relic of the ancient “Aryans” – the Ossetians

http://www.balto-slavica.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=16468

Strangely enough, recent genetic research suggests that the founding stock ‘Turk’ population were actually a hybrid between classic Mongolid stock and Euro-related steppic peoples on the paternal side.

Well, genetics suggest that they were a European people – an offshoot of the Corded Ware Culture – therefore one would expect them to be phenotypically European.

Originally.

This isn’t entirely surprising

It was entirely surprising to Greg Cochran in that thread I linked to. It would have been surprising to Nietzsche, de Gobineau, Chamberlain, Rosenberg, Hitler et al. It would have been surprising to Rushton and Jensen, who wrote, without providing a single citation, that “In India, members of the higher castes obtain higher mean scores and examination marks than do those of the lower castes” (2005: 283).

Now, I have no doubt that an ad hoc explanation could be invented that would save the hereditarian hypothesis were it true, but you can make up ad hoc explanations to save any hypothesis.

The lack of meritocracy (i.e. sorting by ability) meant that smart Dravidians in lower castes had no route to advancement, and a compelling reason to embrace non-Hindu religions that offered them this route

First, although Islam and Christianity are officially anti-caste, the caste system still exists among these communities. People don’t forget what caste you belong to just because you convert. Second, your explanation, if combined with a hereditarian hypothesis, predicts even larger caste gaps than the latter predicts on its own. If smart lower-caste people are leaving Hinduism (which, as I said above, doesn’t necessarily mean their caste status goes away, but that seems to be your assumption in any case), then that should leave an even larger gap between the higher and lower castes.

In you link I see a grand total of two paragraphs about Indian IQ in a book published 16 years ago citing even older studies. And even that says IQ tests show differences in caste IQ, others don’t.

Your statement “there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence” remains unsupported and completely contrary to everything we know about India and common sense. Sure, the merchant castes and feces-hauling castes have the same IQ, that makes complete sense.

There was still social mobility within the middle and upper classes. The Brahmans included, then and now, a lot of people with living standards that would be below average for Central America.

If not for the East India Company, India might well be a Muslim country today.

Probably not entirely, but much more than it is now. Pre-British India featured a lot more hindus under Muslim rule than vice versa.

And even that says IQ tests [sic]show differences in caste IQ, others don’t.

It says that there are no differences on Raven’s Progressive Matrices, which is the the single most highly g-loaded test, which Jensen called a more-or-less pure measure of g. There are differences on other, less g-loaded tests.

The date of the studies cited doesn’t matter, since it isn’t as if there have been any revolutionary breakthroughs in giving people IQ tests. If you have later data that contradicts this, feel free to present it. Otherwise you can accept the scientific evidence I’ve presented, or you can go with your hunches and your “common sense”. If you choose the latter option, though, don’t pretend like you represent the side of scientific rationality in this argument, and that everyone who disagrees with you is some PC snowflake who can’t accept the cold hard truth.

Like Iranians of course. Aryans are the original white people /Caucasians . So the stereotype white person is closer to a Greek,Armenian or Iranian.
Hitler simply blathered on about Aryans needing to be blue eyed and blonde ALL thetime. In fact ,his conception is simply the Nordic subtype . Have you ever seen real Germans? Hitler and his propaganda minister were so dark they could pass for southern Greeks or Italians. Still white /Caucasian but not Of Nordic subtype.

The Kalash in Pakistan and the green -eyed girl of National Geographic cover fame are all examples of people who are originally Aryan from those original invasions or of the Nordic subtype frpm Alexander,s Macedonian Northern Greek settlers. In Iran today you still find many blue eyed blonde types of this Nordic subtype but to conclude: Iranian.

Whats with this problemazation of Aryan refugees? They were mainly women and children fleeing from violence, and everyone except the worst kinds of racists knows that. India wasn’t “invaded” it was just culturally enriched

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“The reason for the difference in mtDNA and Y-DNA data is obvious in hindsight: there was strong sex bias in Bronze Age migrations”

This doesn’t sound much like an invasion, at least as popularly imagined. “Aryan invasion” is usually imagined as something like the European colonization of the Americas or the Jewish colonization of Palestine — a clear *displacement* of the native population.

This makes the “Aryan invasion” seem like the “Norman invasion” or like any of the countless other invasions into India.

“Aryans” became Kangz because of the diligence of Dravidians of the Indus Valley.”

You are making a funny, but while I am unclear on some of your examples, I’d like to hear any input from anyone (I’ve seen some Indian posters for example on here) who knows much about the Dravidians.

From stray things I’ve read the Dravidians had advanced agriculture for the era, had massive cities for the era, and had Roman level plumbing (1000+ years before Rome?).

Whereas concerning the Aryans… somewhere I read a description of them with their key features listed:

1) They liked horses.
2) They really liked horses.
3) They drank milk
4) They really liked to fight.
5) They really, really liked to fight.
6) They didn’t like to work
7) They really liked [insert yourself here] making you do their work for them.

and this is more speculative,

8) They were kinda short guys, maybe even kind of swarthy, with black hair. Not sure where that one came from, some kind of thing mocking Nazis and blondicism I guess. You know Hitler himself was actually the phenotype Aryan, not the guy on the posters. Maybe, maybe not.
9) Oh yeah, and that whole language thing.

Anyway, my understanding is from this site that India has some really high IQ people in the upper castes (descended from Aryans?), and a gigantic mass of the lower IQ peoples that are the grist of this site.

But at the time of this invasion, it sure seems to me that it was one of those cookie cutter horse nomad invasions of a more advanced culture we’ve seen time and again in history.

Any Indians or knowledgeable people on the subject got any input on this?

Hong Kong people speak atrocious English.

Languages are never shared absent widespread coercion, i.e. violence. Doesn’t happen. If it did happen what you’d find is a sort of merger. But that’s not what Sanskrit is. It really is very pure indo-european.

LOL why u mad tho? Unlike the sub-Saharan “kangz,” the Aryans kicked trans-continental ass, built and expanded civilizations, and had awesome pantheons made in their image. Actual footage from back in the day:

How soft your fields so green
Can whisper tales of gore
Of how we calmed the tides of war
We are your overlords

“If not for the East India Company, India might well be a Muslim country today.”

Umm…no. The Marathas were the dominant power in the India by the time British colonization started. And there was a rising Sikh power. Muslim power peaked around 1700 or so.

In invasions, males get slaughtered and women get screwed. It is easier for them to be raped than to fight back, at lest according to genetic results.
They get raped by the invaders whereas the guys get their heads chopped off.

The Guanches lived in the Canary Islands undisturbed for a thousand years. They were a Berber descended peoples who inhabited the Canary islands peacefully for a 1000 years until the Spanish discovered them in the 1450s and conquered them.Whose genes made it into the future, men or women?
Not the guy’s!
Roughly 6 times as many feminist genes as guys.

“Admixture analysis taking the Iberians, Northwest and West sub-Saharan African populations as parental sources of the actual Canarian population, gave estimates of around 33% for the maternal4 and 6% for the paternal5 Guanche lineages. This strong sexual asymmetry was explained as a result of a strong bias favouring matings between European males and aboriginal females, and to the important aboriginal male mortality during the Conquest.”

from here

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v12/n2/full/5201075a.html

Northern India was a relatively populous place at the time of the Aryan invasion, so it will likely have taken a substantial number of invaders. If these were all or mostly male Aryans, as it appears (not surprisingly), what happened to the women left behind, actually? Did the men that stayed with them take on more than one wife, or at least impregnate more than one each, did the women stay single and childless, did they import men from elsewhere, did they themselves emigrate elsewhere? Were the Aryans pastoralists and could the women take on the tasks of the men who left?

Such male invasions happend many times in human history. I would like to know more about the history of the women left behind. Might be rather interesting. Any good links anyone?

We made a quick run through the Aryan invasion of India at the university in the 1960s. The story was that the Aryans brought Sanscript, the Hindi religion, and the caste system with them. Hence, it would be interesting to know when PC changed The Narrative.

As the story went, the Aryan warriors and priests were at the top of the caste system. The native Indians were naturally at the bottom of the caste system … the servants of the upper castes for life as they suffered for their personal transgressions through one of many lives buttressed by a belief in reincarnation. If the lower castes suffer lives of privation and ruin, it is because they deserve it. One need not and should not intervene, even to save lives. This is the same India that my wife saw last year on a two-week tour of the country.

I have had very well educated Indians, upper castes of course, tell me that the caste system and reincarnation (with one depending on the other) are obvious … like the sun coming up in the morning. They await Westerner Civilization achieving a measure of enlightenment to see the obvious. This is ironic since part of the upper-caste Indian narrative is that the Aryans were also responsible for Western Civilization, including Christianity that is nothing but a compilation of Hindi folktales that made their way from India to the Levant.

Ideologies of Election, it seems, are almost universal among civilizations to justify caste, class, religious, racial, and cultural domination.

Not as bad as a parenthetical I saw in a Scientific American article announcing some recent result in number theory:

primes (whole numbers that cannot be expressed as the products of smaller whole numbers)

If you needed the parenthetical note, you probably aren’t getting much out of the article.

Raven’s Progressive Matrices, which is the the single most highly g-loaded test

Then why is the most effected by the Flynn effect? 2.4 standard deviation improvement in Western test-takers compared to ~0.3 for arthritic. If you knew anything about India, you’d be skeptical of any claim to have tested representative samples of the population. What we do know is that India has a massive affirmative action program for the lower castes in its otherwise meritocratic examination-based university admissions. Where it actually counts, the lower castes do far worse on g-loaded tests.

Otherwise you can accept the scientific evidence I’ve presented

Two paragraphs in a book is not “scientific evidence.”

everyone who disagrees with you is some PC snowflake who can’t accept the cold hard truth

So you are not a PC snowflake then? Humor me and let me know your estimates for genotypical IQ for the following groups: NE Asians, Ashkenazi, white Americans, black Americans, SE Asians, Pakistanis.

I would like to know more about the history of the women left behind.

Polygamy and death from childbirth.

I think the ANI/ASI article a few years ago tied the Aryans to Georgians, and there is the Indo-Iranian subset of the Indo-European languages, suggesting a connection there.

Around 1910, we had scores of nut jobs who were preaching northern European nonsense, save that Slavs and Celts were always placed among the better bottom of their white hierarchy. That means they were German kooks vomiting the same German garbage.

To get it right, you must go back to seeing things as they were, including when all Germanic tribes were little more than perpetual pirates and produced 0 culture worth saving.

Those Germans after embracing the basics of Hellenistic civilization and orthodox Catholic Christianity did produce worthwhile culture.

The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica has lots of interesting articles along those lines.

Didn’t that nonsense come from C. Scott Littleton or one of his students? Littleton’s circle seemed obsessed with claiming that eastern Indo-European groups were central to most of Western European cultural development.

I recall reading many years ago a short write up of a conference at which one of Littleton’s acolytes tried to argue that it was foolish to even care that the Celtic and Latinate language were actually one, because whatever was most interesting in either surely was Indo-Iranean in origin.

The Occam’s Razor on Arthur: a Romanized British Celt with military training, and probably at least mid-level status, who stayed when the legions withdrew because that is where his roots were.

Georgian is not an Indo-European language. It is main language of the very small Kartvelian tree.

You nailed it.
And it’s funny it didn’t take long to dice up somebodies widdle feewings.

Where Indo-Europeans show up and find an advanced culture, they advanced, and typically their memory is found millenia later claiming the advanced culture as their own, i.e.: Anatolia, Greece, Italy, India. Where Indo-Europeans failed to find an advanced culture, they managed to remain in states of abject primitism for, millenia, i.e.: Celts, Goths, Baltics, etc. The Goths in particular seemed to have a real time of it coming around, but when they did they really did, so give them credit.

Speaking more largely: I really appreciate this article. From time to time I’m confronted with Indian nationalism and – sigh – all those things they say about nationalism.

I don’t know if it’s an artifact of the Indian educational system or a quality of Indian nationalism, but there seems to be a strong current in Indian nationalism of revulsion to the earliest forms of AIT (Aryan Invasion Theory) which, unlike the study of Indo-European anthropology, seems stuck on 1910 ( kitomi ) … well, the anthropology has come a long way since then so it’s funny (really distressing) to see Indian nationalism mythologizing tending to counter one semi-racist narrative with its own.

And it’s own, FWIW, is “OIT”, or “Out of India”, where the Indo-Europeans, ahem, or Aryans, started in India and spread outwards. OIT has the interesting quality of retaining all the objectionable superiority narratives of the 19th century version of AIT, only stated in reverse: the Indian Aryans went about and conquered hin and yonder.

Our particular distribution of, as Steve Sailer so eloquently states it: “intersectional pokemon points” seems to permit persons of Indian descent the use of the term “Aryan” while it is largely denied all others. The curiosity of Indian Nationalism as far as AIT is concerned is that it does seem to put into focus that there just does seem to be something – peculiar – about people who want to use the word. In other words: AIT really has been updated to AMT (Aryan Migration Theory) – it needn’t be and over many millenia, probably wasn’t an “invasion” – though surely there were skirmishes from time to time.

Don’t tell that to OIT. There’s no OMT in Indian Nationalism. Always OIT. “We was conquerors!” They are keeping the old version, just turning it on its head.

Everyone wants to be the conqueror, or descended therefrom. That is the skeleton key of mass anthropological confusion. Look up the Perioeci and consider where they came from. The Indo-Europeans trot in – the upper class civilized are displaced. Someone has to keep the currency flowing and the aqueducts maintained and it falls on some poor soul to educate the spawn of these barbarian migrants – and 8 generations later the “conquerors” are found literate and running off to Crete to learn the old ways. The pattern repeats itself. Don’t be so sure all the pride descends from the back of a horse or the business end of the composite bow.

I mention all this to bring up a kind of stumbling block in everyone’s form of the story – which is interesting because stumbling blocks like these tend to suggest that something very basic is wrong, or missing – in every possible account so far.

One thing the OIT guys have going for them is the Vedas. The Vedas are ancient, and written in Sanskrit. This is difficult to square with the Indo-Europeans showing up on the scene 3000 – 4000 YBP. That’s how our Indian Nationalists come to feel so confident that it couldn’t possibly be those non-Indo-European / non-Sanskrit speaking Dravidians on the Indus River who’d been there since 6000-9000 YBP who are the source of Vedic culture.

So: score one for OIT.

But – on the other hand – the problem for our Indian nationalist friends becomes primitivization. Notwithstanding how Sanskrit made it to India, the Mycenaeans and Dorians entered Greece as primitives, the Latins entered Italy as primitives. Illiterate, uncultured primitives (albeit with horse, axle, cart, chariot and composite bow). The Celts entered northern Europe and the Baltics kind of hung out north of the Black Sea and pretty much just stayed primitive for a long, long time.

So somehow, if OIT is to be believed, those autochthonous Aryan Indians from the Indus River civilization of 6000-9000 YBP somehow kept pumping out of India, and somewhere between northwestern Pakistan and the Caspian Sea, just kept turning from sophisticates into barbarians so that the process was almost always complete by the time they got to the Urals and then they needed native Anatolians, Minoans, faster-to-the-program Mycenaeans or Etruscans to get them caught back up again.

It’s a puzzle. Either way really, it’s a puzzle. Most of the rest of Indo-European anthropology, AMT and all, is parsimonious, but somehow either the Aryans turned the Vedas into their own, or the Vedics turned backward every time they left the luminous Indus.

And they also invaded Greece*

Language spoken and nothing else may mean next to nothing in terms of population movements. But the Indian subcontinent issue starts with geography: it is more than imposing. Languages aren’t shared across those geographic barriers without some type of conquering and at least enough new folks to maintain the cultural control until it takes and trickles down.

It would be almost impossible for Sanskrit to maintained as a priestly/intellectual language without it being planted by a ‘master class’ of conquerers whose descendants saw it as a matter honoring their ancestors to preserve it. As the conquered came to be assimilated to the conquering culture, it would become theirs as well.

It is a leap to think it could have happened in India without a conquering.

YOU MUST SUBMIT!

….Vivaldi brothers I can take, but luckily it wasn’t the Alessi brothers (Billy and Bobby).

The DNA of subjects taken from the Sintashta and Androvono archaeological horizions – the earliest known sites for peoples identified as ‘Iranians’ resemble Europeans more than the present-day inhabitants of Iran.

Oh yeah? Well, the Indus Valley civilisation came to an end because it had given women the right to vote and its elites wanted cheap labor — which then took the form of Aryan rapefugees! So much for your Aryan Superiority Complex!

At least there are some good fighting Indians in our time. Don’t know about the Aryan bit, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._F._R._Jacob

Look at the boats sinking themselves 90 miles off the coast of Africa: almost all men. That is an invasion force and stupid europeans are letting it happen.

Nope, present-day Ossetians are a fairly typical Caucasian population and too southern genetically. Plus they don’t have the right Y-chromosomes.

You need something like the ancient Yamnaya people of the southern Russian steppes with a lot of R1a-Z93.

Exactly. This is so obvious only liberals can screw it up. Successful major invasions tend to lead to a major upset in Y chromosome lineage, not so much mtDNA. Between the first wave of conquerors taking their fill of the local girls, and the second and subsequent invader folk generations living the high life and getting their fill of women either by wealth or status or both, its the male invader genes that tend to be spread through a conquered population.

Despite mighty wonder woman type Amazon women in movies being lauded as being great and neglected because grrl power, their isn’t a whole lot of historical precedence for chick conquests.

I had a classmate years ago and he is from Iran and he has the bluest eye I have ever seen in a real life person.

There were Sarmatian cavalry units stationed in Britain. There are also a couple of interesting parallels between what we can reconstruct from folklore in the Caucasus and the Arthurian mythos. That said, the Littleton theory is just crap and the movie was arguably worse. Here’s a good demolition of the theory:

https://aelarsen.wordpress.com/2015/08/03/king-arthur-the-sarmatian-theory/

Way ahead of you. Always read the 1911 when it comes to race. If you’re interested in, say, African tribes, stay away from Wikipedia. Those articles are there to prevent you from learning anything.

Britannica is clear and to the point. It also uses the old words like Hottentot, Bushmen and Pygmy instead of the new words that are there to make the subject too confusing to think about.

If you’re interested in anything at all, get a pre-1960s book and be shocked at how informative books can be. It’s like the authors really want teach you something.

Quite encouraging, my otherwise irrelevant friend.

This clearly explains why an increasing number of male denizens of Wewuzkangzistan have started apostatising from their ethnomythological religion.

Hence, the need for Asian wives, to infuse the Euro-White bloodlines with Orientally despotic and Asiatically cruel blood, to finally transform the self-admitted betas into alphas.

Surely this reconstructed basal Turk would kick ass of all the Jooz, Mooz and Coonz (which per se is neither good nor bad).

But it certainly won’t be the “Aryan” of the Rigveda masturbators’ imagination.

In the movie, Arthur was a Romano-Briton but his knights were Sarmatians, a Iranic-speaking people like the Ossetians. I think the Ossetians are generally held to be descended from the Alans. But all those steppe nomads kind of run together.

Is it known, or merely assumed, that the Indus civilisation was Dravidian?

WKPD: The Harappan language is not directly attested and its affiliation is uncertain since the Indus script is still undeciphered.

Hmph: nobody knows.

WKPD: A relationship with the Dravidian or Elamo-Dravidian language family is favoured by a section of scholars.

Hmph: some people are happy to guess.

That’s interesting. Isn’t Georgian a language isolate?

Anthropology seems to be retreating from ‘niceness’. About thirty years ago we deciphered Mayan artifacts and learned a bit about what they thought of themselves. It was shocking. Mainstream academic anthropology had convinced everyone that the Mayan were peaceable philosopher-priests who spent most of their time contemplating nature and the beauty of the forest.

Complete nonsense. Similarly there has been a strong preference for imagining almost all population changes as not invasions but rather the spread of modernizing innovations by cooperative peaceable farmers. But again new evidence makes it appear that ancient man was violent and aggressive just as we had formerly suspected.

Less and less about early life on this planet appears to have been truly ‘nice’.

All modern human beings originated in africa. There is no dispute in this.

Among them one set of modern humans went to india. Now this study is saying another set went north became pale and then went down to india?

Okay…..

Fascinating stuff. Thanks for this, Steve.

Apparently, the ancient Indo-European speaking peoples who invaded India in those distant far-off days were, originally at least, closer genetic relations of such living populations as modern Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Lithuanians etc than to modern Indians.
Even living Britons are closer relations to them than modern Indians are.

This is an idiotic formulation (mainly because it’s inaccurate, and partly because it’s inspired by your white supremacist impulses.) It’s also the kind of formulation that will rile Indians and keep preventing them from accepting this theory.

Oi, boy …

bored identity could Godwinize this topic all day along:

“Ya’ll Do Know who also was proponent of the idea that ancient swastika-luvin’ Aryans were syncopated-sanskrtitizing conquerors of Euro-DNAsian geopolitical realm?”

In conclusion:

Bret Stephens’ haploid cesspool is on the Wrong Side of Science.

Romans were Etruscans for all practical purposes. The fighting man is valorized for a good reason, as it is closely tied to what was needed to survive and expand in an agricultural society; and Europeans indeed extended basic respect to Muslim invaders when they had to fight for their gains even as far as back the Song of Roland.

Its one thing to respect an enemy, its another thing to welcome invasion without resistance.

Anyway, grand pacifism is ridiculous. Its what has led to the modern world.

Steve i know you dont mean it in a derogatory way. But i think you are not accurate. Indians are one of the few religious groups in the world who are more tolerant of other faiths, cultures.

The Nordic Bronze Age. But other than that, yeah nothing cultural.

You have no idea what you are talking about. First, “Dravidian” is not synonymous with “low caste”. Second, Dravidians and Aryans (northerners really) have no history of conflict ever (the 20th century separatist movements were inspired by 19th century theories, and have nothing to do with historical memory); they all considered themselves part of one Vedic civilization. Third, Dravidians have done rather well for themselves historically speaking. Well into the Islamic era, southern kingdoms and dynasties were not just up and standing, they were themselves colonizing lands in SE Asia (e.g., the Cholas.)

As for the East India Company, it intruded just at the point when Hindus were getting the upper hand. The Marathas were the most powerful force in India throughout the 18th century, and the Mughal emperor had become their virtual puppet. The British were just a band of mercantile brigands who saw their opportunity with a lot of “infighting” in the subcontinent, made some good bets about who to ally with and who to oppose, and spread their rule like cancer throughout the country.

You must have seen a different movie from the one I saw. What I recall is Arthur being the son of a Roman soldier and a British mother, with the ethnicity of the soldier never mentioned anywhere. Where did you get this “Ossetian” reference?

Assuming even the aryan invasion is true which i dont believe is true simply because of the saraswati question, among other reasons. The rig veda (atleast the earliest part of it) is centered around worshiping the saraswati river, which dried up by 1900 B.C….before the aryans came.

Or just because they ‘invaded’ doesnt mean they were more ‘advanced’. Were mongols more ‘advanced’ than the people they invaded? Were the huns?

Also many backward castes in india are ‘less’ dark-skinned than the arya-vysya caste that is an upper caste.

The aryan ‘invasion’ theory is a joke.

This is the same India that my wife saw last year on a two-week tour of the country.

It’s possible (even inevitable) that a foreigner will see a lot of poverty in a two-week tour of India. Everything else is projection though. Just because someone is poor doesn’t mean they are lower caste. Just because there are a lot of poor people doesn’t mean that society (or its elites) are keeping them in that condition wilfully; it just means that the country is so damn poor that it cannot afford to relieve the condition of its masses.

Your (or your wife’s) impressions sound exactly like David Duke’s impressions of India during his visit. Exactly as superficial, exactly as blinkered, exactly as wrong.

***

“. . . mtDNA (or matrilineal DNA, transmitted only from mother to daughter) . . . .”

***

Nonsense! The term “mtDNA” stands for “mitochondrial DNA” rather than “matrilineal DNA”– and, more importantly, it is passed down from a mother to ALL of her children, regardless of their sex, not just to her daughters. Most of the mtDNA in our sperm is not successfully past on to our offspring, however, which is why most of us have mtDNA that is identical to our respective mothers’ own mtDNA. That is why maternal lines can be traced using mtDNA; it is not because we males carry no mtDNA.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA

really not surprising – a horse riding people with no word for elephant….
Most of the purity laws for upper castes are obviously one ethnic group trying to keep ‘clean’ .
many bollywood stars could pass for Greek or Italian

Even the far-right hindu nationalists have heavily softened their position on caste. It’s too late to make a difference now, though.

Interesting topic.

For the past few months, I’ve been learning classical Sanskrit using Coulson’s 1976 book. Before I started Coulson’s book, I was under the impression that Sanskrit was in some manner “close” to classical Greek. At this point, I don’t see any connection between classical Greek and Sanskrit. I’m no philologist, though I used to be relatively fluent in classical Greek, so this observation could be very, very wrong.

Also, last night until the wee hours, I was reading Anna Narriette Leonowens, “Life and Travel in India,” a book so riveting and observant I couldn’t put it down. Leonowens completely buys into the Aryan invasion scenario, one that she finds indisputable … just as contemporary academics have their own, less plausible “givens.” This book is available for free on Project Gutenberg, by the way, along with dozens of other colonist-era India narratives.

Last week I read Walter Crane’s, “India Impressions” — a great book from the 1850s, or so. Leonowens wrote around 1900.

No. Raven is not the “most g loaded test”. Consider that the Wais IV test has a subtest almost identical to Raven, “Matrix Reasoning”, and that not only is it not the subtest with the highest g-loading, as it has a g-loading identical to the subtest “Vocabulary”. Considering the test as a whole, the Wais g-loading is bigger than Raven’s, simply because it is more diverse in the kind of questions it has. Look:

https://books.google.com.br/books?id=4iHTzkqdQYQC&lpg=PA36&pg=PA36#v=onepage

Consider also that there is a massive evidence of scholastic hability difference between castes and that this in turn represents evidence of a difference in IQ between them. Even if there is a study in which no difference in IQ was found among Indian castes, remember that of the limited number of samples in these studies. If you have evidence of any massively applied test such as the US SAT, please show us.

iSteve ot here is a link to a good backgrounder on familiar topics in a new light.

http://thephilosophicalsalon.com/the-cia-reads-french-theory-on-the-intellectual-labor-of-dismantling-the-cultural-left/

At least in the country from where I’m trying to reach them, the pages you linked are unavailable for viewing.

In any event, if I recall correctly, you are the commenter who last year touted the Eyferth study as some sort of strong evidence against hereditary theories of racial IQ differences. So I’m not totally confident how strong your evidence will prove to be.

Nevertheless, I can tell you what I told you the last time: either way, we’ll have a lot of strong evidence very soon, so it’s pointless to get into debates where both of us are unwilling to change our opinions.

Hindu nationalism isn’t the only right-wing ideology refuted by these findings, incidentally.

Your argument is what’s known as a red herring. Just because certain people believe intelligence is the deciding factor in racial or class difference doesn’t mean there aren’t other factors. In the case of India, the upper castes are physically larger and have lighter skin than lower caste Indians. Why wouldn’t these hereditary qualities make them more dominant in a hierarchy? After all, when non-whites in the West score big money they tend to favor light-skinned women as wives. And so do white men. This creates a normal, racial dominance hierarchy not necessarily dependent on being a pointy-head.

They get raped by the invaders whereas the guys get their heads chopped off.

Rape or hypergamy?

Warriors do tend to kill native males. Women are valuable and are spared.

A primer on the proto-Indo-Europeans:

What is “obvious”? That they exist?

You may not be able to see the pages I’ve linked to, but you should be able to see my comment history. If you had bothered to click on my name and hit ctrl+f search “Eyferth”, you would have seen what I said about those studies, where I forthrightly admit that they were flawed, but nevertheless that their flaws are exaggerated by people who have never read Flynn’s defense of them in Race, IQ, and Jensen. I also said that they are one of the few pieces of direct evidence available, and some of the only studies that look at descendants of Black Americans in isolation from the Black American subculture. For all these reasons, Eyferth is important, though hardly dispositive.

Makes sense that they would have been a “low-trust” White subgroup.

On the contrary, the description of Germans by Tacitus was rather flattering.

Hitler and his propaganda minister were so dark

They both had dark hair (though Goebbels had darker brown, Hitler had medium brown), but while Goebbels had brown eyes, Hitler’s eyes were blue. Their complexion was white, which is the color of most South Europeans (and even a lot of MENA people), especially if they do office work in Northern Europe and don’t get much suntan. I think both were close to the German average in terms of skin color.

I think the ANI/ASI article a few years ago tied the Aryans to Georgians

No way. Georgian language is not even Indo-European.

I am reminded of an anecdote a friend told me after her trip to India. She was in southern India, where the majority are Dravadians speaking one of the Dravadian languages. My friend asked someone in southern India if he spoke Hindi. “We don’t speak the conquerer’s language,” came the reply.

As such,English is a neutral language in India by virtue of finessing the history of who conquered whom before the English came to India.

“Can someone explain why it isn’t a leap to posit an Indo-Aryan race based on linguistic similarity?”

It was a leap. That’s why only now, with DNA studies, is the theory confirmed.

OT. A meme is born.

James [Hodgkinson, the Hammer of Republicans] told her that he was going to Washington, D.C. to “work on taxes” and “change the tax brackets,” she said.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/16/exclusive-assassination-list-found-on-james-hodgkinsons-body/

India had a lot of pretty high trade barriers for decades ( maybe on books as well? ) after independence, maybe they were not aware of fashionable thinkers in the rest of the Anglosphere.

You make a good point about the need for Affirmative Action telling the real story here.

If indeed all castes do effectively equally well on relevant tests, why is there any need of Affirmative Action? And even if it’s only one test of cognitive ability on which there’s full parity, such as Raven’s, why not implement “Affirmative Action” by insisting that that test, or something akin to it, be the test to determine placement in colleges and in jobs?

This is also one of the arguments against the claim that blacks in England are doing every bit as well as whites academically. Why is it considered such an embarrassing problem for elite universities such as Cambridge and Oxford that the numbers of blacks are so low if, in fact, blacks are doing ever bit as well on the relevant tests?

Really, the very existence and necessity of Affirmative Action tells the tale. It demonstrates the reality of the situation, despite the heroic attempts at obfuscation (if such attempts can be heroic).

My unscientific impression is that South Indian upper castes (quite dark, much darker than any Northerners, regardless of caste) are in general the most intelligent types.

The Indians from India and from wherever else they come from will have to go back. When that statement seems obvious will be the moment when the European Christian ancestral core of the United States is ready to reclaim their land.

The Indians are here to colonize us. The evil ruling class of the American Empire is bringing them here to weaken the European Christian ancestral core of the United States.

Demography and Debt. If the politicians ain’t talking about that, don’t listen to them.

LOL! It’s surprising how rarely invading women rape conquered males compared with how often invading males kill conquered males and rape conquered females. Further research is needed to determine the cause of these strangely asymmetric sexual patterns. OTOH, anthropologists might just re-familiarize themselves with the Illiad, Aeneid, Book of Joshua, et al.

Alfred Rosenberg’s favourite civilisation too.

Me, I prefer Czarist Russia.

The March of progress is a ridiculous notion which Gould was 100 percent correct to deride in numerous books and articles. Evolution is not “progressive”.

https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/11/12/complexity-walls-0-400-hitting-and-evolutionary-progress/

reiner tor, i am south-indian upper caste and i disagree.

Maybe you got that impression from their ‘coding prowess’? But they are pretty average at everything else.

Hitler agreed with you, and made great fun of Himmler and his runic obsessions.

Razib Khan on South Asian genes:

What can we say now?

– The 2009 work that modern South Asians are broadly a compound of two streams of the out of Africa populations is correct. One is much like other West Eurasians. Another is distantly related to other East Eurasians, with possible affinities to Paleolithic Southeast Asian hunter-gatherers.

– The West Eurasian ancestry of South Asians, the “Ancestral North Indians” (ANI), does likely seem to be a mixture at minimum between two groups. One element is related to the eastern farmers who first adopted agriculture on the slopes of the Zagros ~10,000 year ago. Another stream is closely related to the Yamna people who flourished on the Eurasian steppe north of the Black Sea ~5,000 years ago.

– The Munda peoples seem to have a distinct Southeast Asian component that ties them with other Austro-Asiatic peoples. Their migration was almost certainly tied to the Neolithic migration of rice farmers. They are likely not the primal aboriginals of South Asia.

– The R1a1a-Z93 Y chromosomal lineage found across much of South Asia, and especially the higher castes and the north, increased in frequency within the last 4,000 years. It is almost certainly exogenous to South Asia; ancient DNA from the steppe finds the Z93 in Iranic peoples, but no Indian ancestry in these groups.

http://www.brownpundits.com/2017/06/10/the-last-days-of-pre-ancient-dna-indian-population-genomics/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+RazibKhansTotalFeed+%28Razib+Khan%27s+total+feed%29

I was always under the impression that the Aryan invasions were as established a fact as you can get in history that ancient. But Indian PM Modi and his party have been promoting the idea that India is the Aryan homeland and that the Aryans were the primordial inhabitants. I don’t know what he is up to, but I understand you can be in some trouble with the current government if you assert that the Aryans were invaders.

Hitler seems to have enjoyed mocking some of the more extreme examples of Nazi Nordicism:

Why do we call the whole world’s attention to the fact that we have no past? It isn’t enough that the Romans were erecting great buildings when our forefathers were still living in mud huts; now Himmler is starting to dig up these villages of mud huts and enthusing over every potsherd and stone axe he finds. All we prove by that is that we were still throwing stone hatchets and crouching around open fires when Greece and Rome had already reached the highest stage of culture. We really should do our best to keep quiet about this past. Instead Himmler makes a great fuss about it all. The present-day Romans must be having a laugh at these revelations

HP Lovecraft said that his ideal would be an England that combined the high morals of the Victorians with the fire of the Elizabethans and the good taste of the Georgians…..

No one denies the Maya were violent, but you can’t discredit their discoveries.

One can think about the call for Affirmative Action as being the unfakeable signal of a minority’s real situation. If, indeed, a minority is doing every bit as well as others on a relevant metric, why should there ever be a need for Affirmative Action?

If indeed all castes do effectively equally well on relevant tests, why is there any need of Affirmative Action?

And why is it that among those receiving affirmative action benefits, the highest castes do the best? (See Greg Clark in his The Son Also Rises.)

There is a free VPN called Tunnelbear which will let you change your location to the USA or Europe and therefore bypass any blocks.

Indian IQ , vs caste, based on 2016, CA National Merit

Total Indian winners = 275

South Indian Brahmins = 90
North Indian Brahmins = 30

North Indian merchants = 60
Forward Caste Dravidians = 60
( forward caste dravidians do exist, about 20% have been co-opted by brahmins )

Jat Sikhs ( the most Aryan of any caste ) = 3
Patel = 4

CA national merit for previous years, show the same pattern

Affirmative Action has been there for 100 years in India, with no sign of closing the gap

Science is racist when it does not hew to the Neo-Stalinist narrative.

Then why is [sic the most effected sic by the Flynn effect?

That’s an interesting question. Flynn thinks it has to do with the fact that Raven’s is a measure of abstract thinking ability, and cultural priorities have shifted over the decades toward valuing abstract over concrete thought. In any case, Raven’s gains over time don’t change the results of factor analysis applied to Raven’s scores at a given time, which Jensen summarizes in The g Factor (p. 38):

When the Progressive Matrices test is factor analyzed along with a variety of other tests, it is typically among the two or three tests having the highest g loadings, usually around .80. Probably its most distinctive feature is its very low loadings on any factor other than g. Raven’s Progressive Matrices is often used as a “marker” test for Spearman’s g. That is, it is entered into a factor analysis with other tests of unknown factor composition, and if the Matrices has a high loading on the general factor of the matrix of unknown tests, its g loading serves as a standard by which the g loadings of the other tests in the battery can be evaluated. I have yet to see a factor analysis of any diverse collection of tests that includes Raven’s Matrices in which the Raven’s largest loading was found on any factor other than g.

If you knew anything about India, you’d be skeptical of any claim to have tested representative samples of the population.

It’s hard to get representative data for the entire Indian population, but it’s easier to get data for a particular state or region. I tracked down one of the studies (Chopra 1966), which gathered an N=1359 sample of high school students of four castes in both rural and urban districts of Lucknow.

In any case, if you’d like some more “real world” evidence, you can take a look at the Human Development Index scores for Indian states. If you look at the maps at Wikipedia, you can see that the southern (more Dravidian) states have higher HDI than the northern (more Indo-European and Middle Eastern) states, with the southernmost state, Kerala, having the highest HDI of all. The same holds for fertility rates, which are of course correlated with IQ.

What we do know is that India has a massive affirmative action program for the lower castes in its otherwise meritocratic examination-based university admissions.

It has a “reservation” system for “scheduled castes”, meaning the lowest castes. If you look at the evidence I cited, the scheduled castes actually do score somewhat lower than the other castes on cognitive tests, although not on non-verbal tests like Raven’s. Moreover, they get lower marks in school. This shouldn’t be surprising on either an environmentalist or a hereditarian hypothesis (although hereditarianism would predict a caste gap on Raven’s). Moreover, hereditarianism would predict, not only a gap between the scheduled and non-scheduled castes, but other caste gaps as well, in favor of the higher castes. The evidence I cited above, on the contrary, shows a decline in IQ and school marks from Brahmins to Vaishya (and not much of a gap between Brahmins and Scheduled Caste).

Since the scheduled castes do show worst performance at least on verbal tests, that would be enough to translate into worse socioeconomic performance, and thus necessitate affirmative action. What should be surprising to hereditarians is that (A) the scheduled castes do not appear to do worse on non-verbal and highly g-loaded tests like Raven’s, and (B) outside of the scheduled castes, the caste gaps go in the opposite of the predicted direction.

Two paragraphs in a book is not “scientific evidence.”

I don’t know why you’re so hung up on the number of paragraphs, but in those paragraphs you’ll find four citations, one of which is a literature review with many more citations.

So you are not a PC snowflake then? Humor me and let me know your estimates for genotypical IQ for the following groups: NE Asians, Ashkenazi, white Americans, black Americans, SE Asians, Pakistanis.

The notion of “genotypical IQ” makes no sense, but I can say that at present the balance of evidence suggests that it is more likely than not that, in the same environment, white and black Americans would develop the same phenotypic IQ. Look through my comment history if you want to know why I think that. I don’t know enough about the other populations you mention to make an informed judgment.

Certainly, dark-skinned (though high caste) Tamil Brahmins are heavily over-represented in software engineeting.

See my latest reply to Lot. In any case, the supposition that any system of official discrimination must always favor the lower performing group is extremely foolish. I’m sure you can think of historical counterexamples. In fact, it isn’t even true in India, quite aside from caste issues. Christians are the most educationally and economically successful religious community in that country, yet, in the states of Tamil Nadu and Kerala, the reservation system benefits Christians.

The story was that the Aryans brought Sanscript, the Hindi religion

You just said two very retarded things in your first sentence. Just stop. Just stop. Just stop. You don’t know anything about India. You are making a fool out of yourself by trying to rehash your ridiculous 1960s class which was also taught by people who know nothing about India, have never lived in India, and don’t participate in or understand any aspects of Indian culture.

my wife saw last year on a two-week tour of the country

Exactly. But I’m sure because she has white skin and comes from a wealthy country then she’s suddenly qualified to judge complex civilizations based on her superficial observations.

One of the main components of knowledge is to know what you don’t know, and where you have some reasonable amount of learning and expertise. Yet here you are sounding off about something about which you have absolutely no knowledge, like an utter fool.

People like you shouldn’t go to University at all. You’d be better off being a welder or something.

Farsi is far more related to European languages than to Semitic languages like Arabic or Hebrew. It is a surprisingly easy language to learn for English speakers, in spite of the Arabic-style writing script and name.

Anyway, yes. Persians are more or less Islamized Caucasians-quite literally, in fact, when you consider that everything related to the word “Aryan” comes originally from Iran. Pale skin and green eyes are very common. They’ve “only” been Shi’a since the 17th Century. They’ve been Persian since the beginning of time.

(It’s tricky to speak of an “Iranian”, because Iran is a pretty diverse place with lots of minorities. But like China, there’s very clearly an overwhelmingly dominant culture that has an uninterrupted cultural tapestry going back thousands of years. Russia, too, deals with this misconception-less than 4/5ths of the populace is ethnically Russian, yet a lot of secularized Central Asian/Tartar types identify completely with Russian culture and the Kremlin politically. As one example, Shoygu-Putin’s minister of Defense and one of his top cronies-is half Tuvan and a Buddhist, and one of the men Putin seems to admire most is this elderly Muslim general and leading military theorist in Russia, Makhmut Gareev.)

Per capita GDP follows much the same pattern for Indian states, with the southern states being richer in general the northern ones (although some of the richest states are in the north).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_union_territories_by_GDP_per_capita

Scientific American (which is now neither scientific nor american) has always been frustrating in that they underestimated their readership. It would be nice if there was a general-interest science magazine pitched at the educated layman. SciAm is not it and never was.

One of the oddest things I’ve run across is the fact that many Indians are offended by the idea that Aryans invaded India thousands of years ago, bringing the main languages and the basics of Indian civilization.

This is odd because the commonly accepted theory is that the Aryans originated somewhere north of the Black or Caspian Seas where they split, with one group going east and south into India and the other west and south into Europe.

As far as I know Europeans have never been offended by this idea. So why are Indians upset by it?

The thorniest, most fought-over question in Indian history is slowly but surely getting answered: did Indo-European language speakers, who called themselves Aryans, stream into India sometime around 2,000 BC – 1,500 BC….

Well, we call then “Aryans”. They undoubtedly referred to themselves as “Dreamers”.

Surviving on the border of Europe a relic of the ancient “Aryans” – the Ossetians

Did you check their genetics?
From what I’ve read they’re not R1a dominant, just linguistically Iranian/Aryan – genetically closer to Caucasus populations.

If I remember correctly, the purest Aryans R1a were Bengali upper castes – Brahmins and Kshatriyas.

Others where these genes are dominant would be
1. Other upper castes in India and Nepal
2. Uzbeks
3. Tajiks
4. Pashtuns of Afghanistan
5. Slavs (except non-Slovenian Southern Slavs. So Melania is all good )
6. Balts

Greeks and Scandinavins also have more of the genes than most other Europeans.

Funnily, the ‘purest Aryans’ in Europe are Poles. Yes. Poles, mr. Hitler

You can see that isolated Iranian speakers in Pamiri mountains still often look European:

It was Raymond Dart who said long ago, as recorded in C.K. Brain’s The Hunters or the Hunted? that “it was the ape-man’s instinct for violence, and his successful development of lethal weapons, that gave him his dominance in the animal world from the very beginning. Those instincts are with us today.”

Depends. I think there’s a small amount of overlap between the most swarthy&ethnic of the Italians and the lightest of the South Asians (Indians/Pakis).

For example, Fredo Corleone (the guy with the receding hairline) sort of could pass as Paki.

The great historian William McNeil called this “macro-parasitism.” The Indo-European civilizations were based on proto-IE “macro-parasites” parasitizing more sophisticated settled cultures like the Etruscans, Minoans, Dravidians, etc.

What you describe has its roots in 19th century Romanticism, nationalism, and German scholarship. With northern European countries becoming industrially and economically dominant, there was a strong interest in developing an equally prestigious folk history and origin story.

India has a 3 tier or 4 or even 5 tier or 6 tier reservation system

Scheduled Tribes ( forest tribes, further sub-divided in North East India between Mongoloid and Non-Mongoloid Tribes )
Indian Mongoloids score fairly low in public exams

Untouchables ( Dalit / Scheduled Tribe ) further divided into leather workers and Maha-dalits ( shit cleaners )

Other Backward Caste ( dominant kulak peasant ), further sub-divided into Most Backward caste

General category ( upper caste )

70% of Muslims are given Other Backward Caste and compete with peasant hindus
North east Mongoloid Xtians are given Scheduled Tribe category
Untouchable Xtians are given Other Backward Caste status and compete with peasant hindus

In many South Indian states, a brahmin who converts to Xtianity can get Other Backward Caste quota ( at the cost of being socially boycotted in the arranged marriage system )

The economic divide is not south-north, it is rather east-west –
North-west states like Punjab and Gujurat do very well, whereas North east states like Bihar and South-east states like Odisha are very poor

Kerala does well due to gulf remittances and will collapse if oil prices collapse

What about Carl Paladino?

I’m no trained geneticist, yet it boggles my mind how credulously reliant in matrilineal genes professional scientists have been, when they of all people really ought to know better: when populations move about, collide, mingle, and so on, the victorious and successful males claim the females of the vanquished and marginalised. That the genes of the marginalised or vanquished persist in the female line tells us nothing meaningful about these collisions of peoples. The pretense it ever did belies willful omission of material facts and deceit, presumably to to support the Narrative regarding miscegenation, multiculturalism, ans ao on; these people cannot credibly claim not to have known better.