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Just like Schopenhauer and Nietzsche assumed … From The Hindu:

How genetics is settling the Aryan migration debate

Tony Joseph JUNE 16, 2017 23:49 IST

New DNA evidence is solving the most fought-over question in Indian history. And you will be surprised at how sure-footed the answer is, writes Tony Joseph

The thorniest, most fought-over question in Indian history is slowly but surely getting answered: did Indo-European language speakers, who called themselves Aryans, stream into India sometime around 2,000 BC – 1,500 BC when the Indus Valley civilisation came to an end, bringing with them Sanskrit and a distinctive set of cultural practices? Genetic research based on an avalanche of new DNA evidence is making scientists around the world converge on an unambiguous answer: yes, they did.

This may come as a surprise to many — and a shock to some — because the dominant narrative in recent years has been that genetics research had thoroughly disproved the Aryan migration theory. This interpretation was always a bit of a stretch as anyone who read the nuanced scientific papers in the original knew. But now it has broken apart altogether under a flood of new data on Y-chromosomes (or chromosomes that are transmitted through the male parental line, from father to son).

Until recently, only data on mtDNA (or matrilineal DNA, transmitted only from mother to daughter) were available and that seemed to suggest there was little external infusion into the Indian gene pool over the last 12,500 years or so. New Y-DNA data has turned that conclusion upside down, with strong evidence of external infusion of genes into the Indian male lineage during the period in question.

The reason for the difference in mtDNA and Y-DNA data is obvious in hindsight: there was strong sex bias in Bronze Age migrations. In other words, those who migrated were predominantly male and, therefore, those gene flows do not really show up in the mtDNA data.

 
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  1. The reason for the difference in mtDNA and Y-DNA data is obvious in hindsight: there was strong sex bias in Bronze Age migrations. In other words, those who migrated were predominantly male and, therefore, those gene flows do not really show up in the mtDNA data.

    Warriors do tend to be male.

    Read More
    • Replies: @kihowi
    That reminds me of the best question to ask a feminist: When in history have two armies of women fought each other?
    , @cucksworth
    Look at the boats sinking themselves 90 miles off the coast of Africa: almost all men. That is an invasion force and stupid europeans are letting it happen.
    , @Anonymous
    Exactly. This is so obvious only liberals can screw it up. Successful major invasions tend to lead to a major upset in Y chromosome lineage, not so much mtDNA. Between the first wave of conquerors taking their fill of the local girls, and the second and subsequent invader folk generations living the high life and getting their fill of women either by wealth or status or both, its the male invader genes that tend to be spread through a conquered population.

    Despite mighty wonder woman type Amazon women in movies being lauded as being great and neglected because grrl power, their isn't a whole lot of historical precedence for chick conquests.
    , @Pat Boyle
    Anthropology seems to be retreating from 'niceness'. About thirty years ago we deciphered Mayan artifacts and learned a bit about what they thought of themselves. It was shocking. Mainstream academic anthropology had convinced everyone that the Mayan were peaceable philosopher-priests who spent most of their time contemplating nature and the beauty of the forest.

    Complete nonsense. Similarly there has been a strong preference for imagining almost all population changes as not invasions but rather the spread of modernizing innovations by cooperative peaceable farmers. But again new evidence makes it appear that ancient man was violent and aggressive just as we had formerly suspected.

    Less and less about early life on this planet appears to have been truly 'nice'.
    , @Van Doren
    Warriors do tend to kill native males. Women are valuable and are spared.
    , @Jus' Sayin'...
    LOL! It's surprising how rarely invading women rape conquered males compared with how often invading males kill conquered males and rape conquered females. Further research is needed to determine the cause of these strangely asymmetric sexual patterns. OTOH, anthropologists might just re-familiarize themselves with the Illiad, Aeneid, Book of Joshua, et al.
    , @Bard of Bumperstickers
    Smash The Patriarchy! I am Wonder Woman, and I approve this message. };^D
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  2. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Apparently, the ancient Indo-European speaking peoples who invaded India in those distant far-off days were, originally at least, closer genetic relations of such living populations as modern Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Lithuanians etc than to modern Indians.
    Even living Britons are closer relations to them than modern Indians are.

    Read More
    • Replies: @melanf

    Apparently, the ancient Indo-European speaking peoples who invaded India in those distant far-off days were, originally at least, closer genetic relations of such living populations as modern Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Lithuanians etc than to modern Indians.
     
    Surviving on the border of Europe a relic of the ancient "Aryans" - the Ossetians
    http://www.balto-slavica.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=16468
    , @Santoculto
    And they also invaded Greece*
    , @Numinous

    Apparently, the ancient Indo-European speaking peoples who invaded India in those distant far-off days were, originally at least, closer genetic relations of such living populations as modern Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Lithuanians etc than to modern Indians.
    Even living Britons are closer relations to them than modern Indians are.
     
    This is an idiotic formulation (mainly because it's inaccurate, and partly because it's inspired by your white supremacist impulses.) It's also the kind of formulation that will rile Indians and keep preventing them from accepting this theory.
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  3. Ivy says:

    …stream into India sometime around 2,000 BC – 1,500 BC when the Indus Valley civilisation came to an end, bringing with them Sanskrit and a distinctive set of cultural practices

    Was that streaming a cause or effect, or both, in the Indus Valley civilization coming to an end? Where did they come from, where did they go, did they dance like Cotton Eyed Joe? IE influences are felt and seen in many places.

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    • LOL: Abe, AndrewR
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  4. TWS says:

    The comments on the original article are interesting. It’s weird how some will call racist when it’s pure science.

    Read More
    • Agree: PiltdownMan
    • Replies: @MBlanc46
    Science is racist when it does not hew to the Neo-Stalinist narrative.
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  5. guest says:

    “Y-chromosomes (or chromosomes that are transmitted through the male parental line, from father to son)”

    For whom was this written? Can’t wait to read this publication’s article on gravity (that thing keeping your ass on the ground).

    Read More
    • LOL: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Weltanschauung
    Not as bad as a parenthetical I saw in a Scientific American article announcing some recent result in number theory:

    primes (whole numbers that cannot be expressed as the products of smaller whole numbers)
     
    If you needed the parenthetical note, you probably aren't getting much out of the article.
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  6. The best push-back comment from the comments section of that article in The Hindu:

    “Scientific Rascism” is an 18th century European science. One thought that it was mercifully killed with the UNESCO resolution of 1950.

    Thank goodness for UNESCO resolutions. Where would scientific progress be without them?

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    • LOL: TWS
    • Replies: @guest
    How can that not be a parody post? I mean, they could've referenced Stephen Jay Gould or the March of Progress, but UNESCO? That's thanking the United Colors of Benetton.
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  7. Clyde says:

    Just based on looks you have many of the upper caste Indians who look like Persians. Looks wise they are interchangeable. Millions of wacky-Pakis too who in normal sunlight can pass for Italian but not Czechoslovak.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Depends. I think there's a small amount of overlap between the most swarthy&ethnic of the Italians and the lightest of the South Asians (Indians/Pakis).

    For example, Fredo Corleone (the guy with the receding hairline) sort of could pass as Paki.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DZNDEqcSi0
    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    Another interesting thing about Indian looks, is that there doesn't seem to be any correlation between looks (specifically skin tone) and intelligence. Some of the smartest Indians I've met have also been the darkest. Generally speaking, the farther south in India you go, the darker people get. But economic productivity (a reliable reflection of intelligence) does not seem to follow the same pattern. The far south state of Kerala is almost always in the top five of Indian states in that regard. And the prominent language of that state is Malayalam, a Dravidian rather than Indo-European language.
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  8. kihowi says:

    At this point wouldn’t it just save time to discard every idea about race formed in the last century and pick up where we left off around 1910? The process of arriving at overwhelming evidence that they were right all along is going to take ages and the Chinese don’t have that kind of baggage.

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    • Agree: Desiderius, Sunbeam
    • Replies: @Jake
    Around 1910, we had scores of nut jobs who were preaching northern European nonsense, save that Slavs and Celts were always placed among the better bottom of their white hierarchy. That means they were German kooks vomiting the same German garbage.

    To get it right, you must go back to seeing things as they were, including when all Germanic tribes were little more than perpetual pirates and produced 0 culture worth saving.

    Those Germans after embracing the basics of Hellenistic civilization and orthodox Catholic Christianity did produce worthwhile culture.
    , @Flip
    The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica has lots of interesting articles along those lines.
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  9. guest says:
    @PiltdownMan
    The best push-back comment from the comments section of that article in The Hindu:

    "Scientific Rascism" is an 18th century European science. One thought that it was mercifully killed with the UNESCO resolution of 1950.

     

    Thank goodness for UNESCO resolutions. Where would scientific progress be without them?

    How can that not be a parody post? I mean, they could’ve referenced Stephen Jay Gould or the March of Progress, but UNESCO? That’s thanking the United Colors of Benetton.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Trelane
    If you have been held back by the white man you have the right to open a casino.
    https://youtu.be/fIoCGzcYmIc?t=28
    , @Unladen Swallow
    India had a lot of pretty high trade barriers for decades ( maybe on books as well? ) after independence, maybe they were not aware of fashionable thinkers in the rest of the Anglosphere.
    , @RaceRealist88
    The March of progress is a ridiculous notion which Gould was 100 percent correct to deride in numerous books and articles. Evolution is not "progressive".

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/11/12/complexity-walls-0-400-hitting-and-evolutionary-progress/
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  10. AaronB says:

    I never understood why linguistic similarities allowed us to conclude similarity of race. All it seems to suggest is proximity, interaction, and influence. Lot of different races in the same area spoke the same or similar languages.

    Its like future archeologists, after the Catastrophe, will conclude that people in Hong Kong and England were part of some great original race.

    Maybe I’m missing something. Can someone explain why it isn’t a leap to posit an Indo-Aryan race based on linguistic similarity?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Basically these researchers are using ancient DNA from ancient bones, uncovered in the full archaeological context, together with corroborating evidence from excavated archaeological artifacts to put the people in the context of the culture - cultures which were reliably allocated to particular epochs and civilizations by means of their cultural attributes, such as distinctive religious rituals, remains of wooden wheels, weapons etc.

    The breakthrough was modern DNA technology which enabled the actual genetic relationships of these long dead people to become a matter of fact - and not conjecture.
    , @spandrell
    Hong Kong people speak atrocious English.

    Languages are never shared absent widespread coercion, i.e. violence. Doesn't happen. If it did happen what you'd find is a sort of merger. But that's not what Sanskrit is. It really is very pure indo-european.
    , @Jake
    Language spoken and nothing else may mean next to nothing in terms of population movements. But the Indian subcontinent issue starts with geography: it is more than imposing. Languages aren't shared across those geographic barriers without some type of conquering and at least enough new folks to maintain the cultural control until it takes and trickles down.

    It would be almost impossible for Sanskrit to maintained as a priestly/intellectual language without it being planted by a 'master class' of conquerers whose descendants saw it as a matter honoring their ancestors to preserve it. As the conquered came to be assimilated to the conquering culture, it would become theirs as well.

    It is a leap to think it could have happened in India without a conquering.
    , @Broski
    "Can someone explain why it isn’t a leap to posit an Indo-Aryan race based on linguistic similarity?"

    It was a leap. That's why only now, with DNA studies, is the theory confirmed.
    , @International Jew

    Its like future archeologists, after the Catastrophe, will conclude that people in Hong Kong and England were part of some great original race.
     
    Hah hah. An even stronger example: Frenchmen and Haitians.

    But to answer your question: the conclusion to draw from far-flung linguistic similarity is not that all speakers of a language family are genetically close now, or even 2000 years ago: only that there was some point, possibly long ago, when they were genetically similar.

    If future archeologists discover French inscriptions in Haiti and in France, there's a risk they'll conclude that French originated in Haiti and somehow spread to Europe. But much other evidence will point the other way.

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  11. matt says:

    This isn’t all that “surprising” or “shocking” outside of India. The reason why it remains controversial in the subcontinent is because of the political priorities of right-wing Hindu nationalism. Unlike right-wing nationalists outside the continent, who often celebrate the Aryan conquerors, Hindu nationalists usually deny the Aryan invasions, since affirming their existence would make it much harder to claim that Abrahamic faiths like Islam and Christianity are “invasive”, anti-Indian, foreign threats. If Indo-European speakers really did conquer the subcontinent, then pretty much everyone in India is a descendant of invaders, not just Muslims. That’s why this article in The Hindu needs to preface its argument by pointing out how shocking it appears to be, and it’s why there’s so much pushback in the comments from Indian readers.

    Hindu nationalism isn’t the only right-wing ideology refuted by these findings, incidentally. Modern HBD-infused Euro-American nationalism is in the same boat as its subcontinental counterpart, if for different reasons. Contrary to what 19th and 20th century figures like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hitler, Rushton, and Lynn expected, there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence, even though, as this article observes, “the ANI [Ancestral North Indian; i.e., Aryan] ancestry [is] higher in traditionally upper caste and Indo-European speakers.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    Contrary to what 19th and 20th century figures like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hitler, Rushton, and Lynn expected, there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence
     
    This isn't entirely surprising, given that the entire point of caste was to entrench the invading Aryans among the elites. The lack of meritocracy (i.e. sorting by ability) meant that smart Dravidians in lower castes had no route to advancement, and a compelling reason to embrace non-Hindu religions that offered them this route. If not for the East India Company, India might well be a Muslim country today.
    , @Lot

    there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence
     
    Your link does not provide evidence of it. A few posts down are a ton of Indian IQ studies with results all over the map, 107 this 73 that.

    Lacking good idea, common sense tells us Parsis and merchant castes will have higher than mean IQs, and the primitive phenotype tribes probably have genetic IQs in line with other primitive Asian groups like Papuans and Australian Aborigines.
    , @TheJester
    We made a quick run through the Aryan invasion of India at the university in the 1960s. The story was that the Aryans brought Sanscript, the Hindi religion, and the caste system with them. Hence, it would be interesting to know when PC changed The Narrative.

    As the story went, the Aryan warriors and priests were at the top of the caste system. The native Indians were naturally at the bottom of the caste system ... the servants of the upper castes for life as they suffered for their personal transgressions through one of many lives buttressed by a belief in reincarnation. If the lower castes suffer lives of privation and ruin, it is because they deserve it. One need not and should not intervene, even to save lives. This is the same India that my wife saw last year on a two-week tour of the country.

    I have had very well educated Indians, upper castes of course, tell me that the caste system and reincarnation (with one depending on the other) are obvious ... like the sun coming up in the morning. They await Westerner Civilization achieving a measure of enlightenment to see the obvious. This is ironic since part of the upper-caste Indian narrative is that the Aryans were also responsible for Western Civilization, including Christianity that is nothing but a compilation of Hindi folktales that made their way from India to the Levant.

    Ideologies of Election, it seems, are almost universal among civilizations to justify caste, class, religious, racial, and cultural domination.

    , @ia

    Hindu nationalism isn’t the only right-wing ideology refuted by these findings, incidentally.
     
    Your argument is what's known as a red herring. Just because certain people believe intelligence is the deciding factor in racial or class difference doesn't mean there aren't other factors. In the case of India, the upper castes are physically larger and have lighter skin than lower caste Indians. Why wouldn't these hereditary qualities make them more dominant in a hierarchy? After all, when non-whites in the West score big money they tend to favor light-skinned women as wives. And so do white men. This creates a normal, racial dominance hierarchy not necessarily dependent on being a pointy-head.
    , @International Jew

    This isn’t all that “surprising” or “shocking” outside of India. The reason why it remains controversial in the subcontinent is because of the political priorities of right-wing Hindu nationalism.

     

    Yup. Indians have lobbied the California Dept of Education, to scrub the Indo-European thing from the curricula. (They also don't want schools to teach anything about castes.)

    Read about it here...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_textbook_controversy_over_Hindu_history
    , @Frau Katze
    There are a lot of Dravidian languages spoken in India, especially the southeast.

    Sri Lanka just finished a civil war between IE speaking Buddhists and Hindu Dravidian-speaking Tamil. The Tamil lost.

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  12. kihowi says:
    @Johann Ricke

    The reason for the difference in mtDNA and Y-DNA data is obvious in hindsight: there was strong sex bias in Bronze Age migrations. In other words, those who migrated were predominantly male and, therefore, those gene flows do not really show up in the mtDNA data.
     
    Warriors do tend to be male.

    That reminds me of the best question to ask a feminist: When in history have two armies of women fought each other?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lot
    A founding myth of the Lombards (believed by them to mean Long-Beards) was that when they migrated out of Sweden into Germany, they were confronted by a larger local army. To make their force look bigger, they had the women tie their hair around their face to look like beards.

    More accurate sources describing the ancient German way of war states the women, while not actually fighting, would go the battlefield to cheer their men on.

    , @Jenner Ickham Errican

    When in history have two armies of women fought each other?
     
    In modern times, it happens quite often.
    , @jacques sheete
    This doesn't answer your question, but I find it charming and hope others do as well.

    XII.
    § 1. “NEARLY all the Gauls are of a lofty stature, fair, and of ruddy complexion; terrible from the sternness of their eyes, very quarrelsome, and of great pride and insolence. A whole troop of foreigners would not be able to withstand a single Gaul if he called his wife to his assistance, who is usually very strong, and with blue eyes; especially when, swelling her neck, gnashing her teeth, and brandishing her sallow arms of enormous size, she begins to strike blows mingled with kicks, as if they were so many missiles sent from the string of a catapult.”



    AMMIANUS MARCELLINUS, THE ROMAN HISTORY OF AMMIANUS MARCELLINUS DURING THE REIGNS OF THE EMPERORS CONSTANTIUS, JULIAN, JOVIANUS, VALENTINIAN, AND VALENS.


    TRANSLATED BY C.D. YONGE, M.A.
    BOOK XV, Chap XII

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/28587/28587-h/28587-h.htm

     

    , @Selvar
    Well, ISIS has its own female fighters (the Al-Khansaa Brigade) that they've been increasingly putting into combat as their military situation has deteriorated. Meanwhile the Kurds have their own female units as part of the YPG. They've probably bumped into each other once or twice.
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  13. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @AaronB
    I never understood why linguistic similarities allowed us to conclude similarity of race. All it seems to suggest is proximity, interaction, and influence. Lot of different races in the same area spoke the same or similar languages.

    Its like future archeologists, after the Catastrophe, will conclude that people in Hong Kong and England were part of some great original race.

    Maybe I'm missing something. Can someone explain why it isn't a leap to posit an Indo-Aryan race based on linguistic similarity?

    Basically these researchers are using ancient DNA from ancient bones, uncovered in the full archaeological context, together with corroborating evidence from excavated archaeological artifacts to put the people in the context of the culture – cultures which were reliably allocated to particular epochs and civilizations by means of their cultural attributes, such as distinctive religious rituals, remains of wooden wheels, weapons etc.

    The breakthrough was modern DNA technology which enabled the actual genetic relationships of these long dead people to become a matter of fact – and not conjecture.

    Read More
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  14. Anonym says:

    Read More
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  15. Trelane says:
    @guest
    How can that not be a parody post? I mean, they could've referenced Stephen Jay Gould or the March of Progress, but UNESCO? That's thanking the United Colors of Benetton.

    If you have been held back by the white man you have the right to open a casino.

    Read More
    • Replies: @bored identity
    Such a Brat Stephensonian kind of novelty!

    bored identity is curious :


    Do you have to be a genuine injun injuned in heart, or you can be any, garden variety, eggshell nuanced, sociopathic, newcoming dreamer that simply hates Amorica- but Likes Money?
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  16. Oi, boy .

    bored identity can Godwinize this forum all day along:

    “Ya’ll Do Know who also was proponent of the idea that ancient swastika-luvin’ Aryans were syncopated-sanskrtitizing conquerors of Euro-DNAsian geopolitical realm?”

    In conclusion:

    Bret Stephens’ haploid cesspool is on the Wrong Side of Science.

    Read More
    • Replies: @BenKenobi
    Why did you randomly start posting in the third person?
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  17. There’s an interesting lecture on the Aryan influence in India by the great yogi Vivekananda in 1896:

    http://ramakrishnavivekananda.info/vivekananda/volume_9/lectures_and_discourses/history_of_the_aryan_race.htm

    He praises the original work by Welsh judge/scholar William Jones, and German scholarship in starting to shed light on the subject. Lots of interesting tidbits:

    Indian Rajas go and perform Mohammedan ceremonies and enter Mohammedan mosques, although [some] Mohammedans took the first opportunity to kill a number of “the heathens”.

    Where “[some]” is a politically correct editorial insertion. Some things never change.

    The peculiarity you find is that the Semitic races and the Egyptians try to preserve the dead bodies, while the Aryans try to destroy them. The Greeks, the Germans, the Romans — your ancestors before they became Christians — used to burn the dead. It was only when Charlemagne made you Christians with the sword — and when you refused, [he] cut off a few hundred heads, and the rest jumped into the water — that burying came here. You see at once the metaphysical significance of burning the dead. The burying of the dead (Preserving the dead by the burying of the body.) can only remain when there is no idea of the soul, and the body is all. At best there came the idea later on that this very body will have another lease of life, after so many years — mummies will come out and begin to walk the streets again.

    But with the Aryans the idea was from the first that the soul is not the body, but would live on. There are some old hymns in the Rig-Veda: when the bodies are burnt they say, “Take him gently, purify him, give him a bright body, take him to the land where the fathers live — where there is no more sorrow and where there is joy forever”. (Rig-Veda 10.16.4.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I've always thought cremation and scattering was the only really dignified way to have one's shell disposed of, but I never knew why.

    This makes sense now.
    , @Father O'Hara
    "Take him to the land where the fathers live." Take me down to Panama City...
    , @Moshe
    He is defining "soul" differently and isn't quite historically correct (pre-christian romans, etc) but who cares. What I am curious about is what various groups with brand spankin new cemetaries did with their dead?

    Native (US) Americans (real ones) often have cemetaries that go back a century at most (down Southwest you gotta see em though, festooned like cinco de quatro).

    I assume most hace been burying for longer than that and just didn't leave strong markers. But did they do that 300 years ago?

    More interestingly, what happened to the hundreds of thousands of dead from battles, whether ancient roman or modern rwandian?

    And MOST imterestingly, to me anyway, is Africans.

    What have the thousands of different peoppe of africa been foing with their dead all this time? I imagine the muslims were burying them, no? (Though of course we all know that a catholic african prieat has at most 4 wives [per TR] so I imagine pre-modern muslims were different too.]

    But still, sid they burn them? Bury them? How did it roll?

    Also other that southeast asian area (indonesia?) where the sead continue to hang out with the family for a while (there were other places where they were propped up around the property) what did other literate peoples do with their dead that was interesting?
    , @Logan
    "The Greeks, the Germans, the Romans — your ancestors before they became Christians — used to burn the dead. "

    The problem is that this notion isn't really accurate.

    Greeks: Minoans and Myceneans practiced burial, not cremation. So did classical Greeks, although customs varied by city, with Athens mostly practicing cremation.

    Germans buried their dead in the really old days, through cremation became prevalent during and after the Bronze Age.

    Romans, like the Germans, buried their dead in the old days, but practiced a mixture of burial and cremation during the late Republic and early Empire. Cremation gradually disappeared, considerably before Christianity took over.
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  18. Lot says:

    400+ years after Alexander the Great’s brief invasion of India, there were still Greek-speaking kingdoms in Pakistan and India that worshiped Greek gods.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_Kingdom

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greek_Kingdom

    Here is an amazing image of one of the Indo-Greek kings.

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  19. Hindoo says:

    I don’t understand why abject Euro-Whites suffer from this OCD about “Aryans”.

    Instead of such useless endeavours such as finding correlation between penis size and IQ, Euro-Whites would do better to find a cure for Wewuzkangzosis pathologicalis.

    At least success in the latter would mean a few less world wars.

    Speaking of IQ, the Proto-Indo-Europeans (and their bronze age progeny) were unmitigated savages who didn’t have the IQ to build any civilization anywhere.

    “Aryans” became Kangz because of the diligence of Dravidians of the Indus Valley.
    Persians became Kangz because of the diligence of Elamites.
    Romans became Kangz because of the diligence of Etruscans.
    Greeks became Kangz because of the diligence of Minoans.

    Wherever Indo-Euros couldn’t find a civilizations to parasitise, they remained in their barbaric state of existence, just like the Celts and Teutons and Slavs and Tocharians.

    They were the ultimate welfare-parasites of their time. Much like Turks in Germany today.

    But hey, Turkics were even better than “Aryan” Indo-Euros in the invasion business. Look at what the Oghuz Turkmens did to Anatolia. This is the same thing they’ll do to Germany.

    Perhaps then, in a not so distant future, Euro-Whites would masturbate thinking of their connection to Genghiz and Hulagu, just as the other commenters are masturbating now to “Aryans”.

    In fact, Hungarians have already started fapping themselves.

    Seems that Mitra and Varuna are not without a sense of irony.

    Read More
    • Troll: Clyde
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Strangely enough, recent genetic research suggests that the founding stock 'Turk' population were actually a hybrid between classic Mongolid stock and Euro-related steppic peoples on the paternal side.
    , @Sunbeam
    "Aryans” became Kangz because of the diligence of Dravidians of the Indus Valley."

    You are making a funny, but while I am unclear on some of your examples, I'd like to hear any input from anyone (I've seen some Indian posters for example on here) who knows much about the Dravidians.

    From stray things I've read the Dravidians had advanced agriculture for the era, had massive cities for the era, and had Roman level plumbing (1000+ years before Rome?).

    Whereas concerning the Aryans... somewhere I read a description of them with their key features listed:

    1) They liked horses.
    2) They really liked horses.
    3) They drank milk
    4) They really liked to fight.
    5) They really, really liked to fight.
    6) They didn't like to work
    7) They really liked [insert yourself here] making you do their work for them.

    and this is more speculative,

    8) They were kinda short guys, maybe even kind of swarthy, with black hair. Not sure where that one came from, some kind of thing mocking Nazis and blondicism I guess. You know Hitler himself was actually the phenotype Aryan, not the guy on the posters. Maybe, maybe not.
    9) Oh yeah, and that whole language thing.

    Anyway, my understanding is from this site that India has some really high IQ people in the upper castes (descended from Aryans?), and a gigantic mass of the lower IQ peoples that are the grist of this site.

    But at the time of this invasion, it sure seems to me that it was one of those cookie cutter horse nomad invasions of a more advanced culture we've seen time and again in history.

    Any Indians or knowledgeable people on the subject got any input on this?

    , @Jenner Ickham Errican
    LOL why u mad tho? Unlike the sub-Saharan “kangz,” the Aryans kicked trans-continental ass, built and expanded civilizations, and had awesome pantheons made in their image. Actual footage from back in the day:

    https://youtu.be/v7MGUNV8MxU?t=26s

    How soft your fields so green
    Can whisper tales of gore
    Of how we calmed the tides of war
    We are your overlords
     
    , @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    You nailed it.
    And it's funny it didn't take long to dice up somebodies widdle feewings.

    Where Indo-Europeans show up and find an advanced culture, they advanced, and typically their memory is found millenia later claiming the advanced culture as their own, i.e.: Anatolia, Greece, Italy, India. Where Indo-Europeans failed to find an advanced culture, they managed to remain in states of abject primitism for, millenia, i.e.: Celts, Goths, Baltics, etc. The Goths in particular seemed to have a real time of it coming around, but when they did they really did, so give them credit.

    Speaking more largely: I really appreciate this article. From time to time I'm confronted with Indian nationalism and - sigh - all those things they say about nationalism.

    I don't know if it's an artifact of the Indian educational system or a quality of Indian nationalism, but there seems to be a strong current in Indian nationalism of revulsion to the earliest forms of AIT (Aryan Invasion Theory) which, unlike the study of Indo-European anthropology, seems stuck on 1910 ( kitomi ) ... well, the anthropology has come a long way since then so it's funny (really distressing) to see Indian nationalism mythologizing tending to counter one semi-racist narrative with its own.

    And it's own, FWIW, is "OIT", or "Out of India", where the Indo-Europeans, ahem, or Aryans, started in India and spread outwards. OIT has the interesting quality of retaining all the objectionable superiority narratives of the 19th century version of AIT, only stated in reverse: the Indian Aryans went about and conquered hin and yonder.

    Our particular distribution of, as Steve Sailer so eloquently states it: "intersectional pokemon points" seems to permit persons of Indian descent the use of the term "Aryan" while it is largely denied all others. The curiosity of Indian Nationalism as far as AIT is concerned is that it does seem to put into focus that there just does seem to be something - peculiar - about people who want to use the word. In other words: AIT really has been updated to AMT (Aryan Migration Theory) - it needn't be and over many millenia, probably wasn't an "invasion" - though surely there were skirmishes from time to time.

    Don't tell that to OIT. There's no OMT in Indian Nationalism. Always OIT. "We was conquerors!" They are keeping the old version, just turning it on its head.

    Everyone wants to be the conqueror, or descended therefrom. That is the skeleton key of mass anthropological confusion. Look up the Perioeci and consider where they came from. The Indo-Europeans trot in - the upper class civilized are displaced. Someone has to keep the currency flowing and the aqueducts maintained and it falls on some poor soul to educate the spawn of these barbarian migrants - and 8 generations later the "conquerors" are found literate and running off to Crete to learn the old ways. The pattern repeats itself. Don't be so sure all the pride descends from the back of a horse or the business end of the composite bow.

    I mention all this to bring up a kind of stumbling block in everyone's form of the story - which is interesting because stumbling blocks like these tend to suggest that something very basic is wrong, or missing - in every possible account so far.

    One thing the OIT guys have going for them is the Vedas. The Vedas are ancient, and written in Sanskrit. This is difficult to square with the Indo-Europeans showing up on the scene 3000 - 4000 YBP. That's how our Indian Nationalists come to feel so confident that it couldn't possibly be those non-Indo-European / non-Sanskrit speaking Dravidians on the Indus River who'd been there since 6000-9000 YBP who are the source of Vedic culture.

    So: score one for OIT.

    But - on the other hand - the problem for our Indian nationalist friends becomes primitivization. Notwithstanding how Sanskrit made it to India, the Mycenaeans and Dorians entered Greece as primitives, the Latins entered Italy as primitives. Illiterate, uncultured primitives (albeit with horse, axle, cart, chariot and composite bow). The Celts entered northern Europe and the Baltics kind of hung out north of the Black Sea and pretty much just stayed primitive for a long, long time.

    So somehow, if OIT is to be believed, those autochthonous Aryan Indians from the Indus River civilization of 6000-9000 YBP somehow kept pumping out of India, and somewhere between northwestern Pakistan and the Caspian Sea, just kept turning from sophisticates into barbarians so that the process was almost always complete by the time they got to the Urals and then they needed native Anatolians, Minoans, faster-to-the-program Mycenaeans or Etruscans to get them caught back up again.

    It's a puzzle. Either way really, it's a puzzle. Most of the rest of Indo-European anthropology, AMT and all, is parsimonious, but somehow either the Aryans turned the Vedas into their own, or the Vedics turned backward every time they left the luminous Indus.

    , @Daniel Chieh
    Romans were Etruscans for all practical purposes. The fighting man is valorized for a good reason, as it is closely tied to what was needed to survive and expand in an agricultural society; and Europeans indeed extended basic respect to Muslim invaders when they had to fight for their gains even as far as back the Song of Roland.

    Its one thing to respect an enemy, its another thing to welcome invasion without resistance.

    Anyway, grand pacifism is ridiculous. Its what has led to the modern world.
    , @Anonymous
    The great historian William McNeil called this "macro-parasitism." The Indo-European civilizations were based on proto-IE "macro-parasites" parasitizing more sophisticated settled cultures like the Etruscans, Minoans, Dravidians, etc.

    What you describe has its roots in 19th century Romanticism, nationalism, and German scholarship. With northern European countries becoming industrially and economically dominant, there was a strong interest in developing an equally prestigious folk history and origin story.
    , @unpc downunder
    Caucasians are not a monolithic group, and the Caucasians of western Europe are different to the pastoral Caucasians of Afghanistan, Iran, Caucasus, etc. As Nicolas Wade points out, pastoralists in general tend to be quite strong, aggressive, and not particularly bright or consciousness. This applies to both Caucasian pastoralists like Chechens and Asian pastoralists like Mongolians. That's because they come from semi-nomadic tribes that eat meat and diary, live in areas with few towns and cities, and regularly engage in territorial disputes. In contrast, people from settled crop farming societies tend to be smaller (in most cases) and more docile.

    North European Caucasians with a violent reputation (like Vikings and highland Celts) are kind of a hybrid group with some pastoral traits and some traits of settled farmer/trader societies.

    , @Hindon't
    Pity the poor anti-white racist sub-set of the Hindoos, living in a modern world invented by the people they despise while their culture struggles with the challenges of indoor plumbing. At least they had an ancient culture to take pride in, but now whitey- with his accursed science- has proven that that ancient culture was founded by hell-raising white teenagers who got kicked out of the house and decided they'd have to settle for Indian chicks. It's like if you kicked a bunch of soccer hooligans out of England and they decided to conquer New Guinea, and 2000 years later they have a Papuan religion based on chugging beer and singing about Manchester United in meticulously reproduced chav English.

    Well, at least the Indus Valley civilization was all yours- copied from Mesopotamia, sure, but those mud bricks were baked in the sun successfully with no help from the Man. Until it wasn't done successfully anymore and collapsed.

    P.S. Did you learn your history from Nation of Islam pamphlets?

    Cheers!
    , @anon
    he idea that the Celts and Goths had a rough and brutal culture has been questioned. See the documentary of Terry Jones, "Barbarians"
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  20. Lot says:
    @kihowi
    That reminds me of the best question to ask a feminist: When in history have two armies of women fought each other?

    A founding myth of the Lombards (believed by them to mean Long-Beards) was that when they migrated out of Sweden into Germany, they were confronted by a larger local army. To make their force look bigger, they had the women tie their hair around their face to look like beards.

    More accurate sources describing the ancient German way of war states the women, while not actually fighting, would go the battlefield to cheer their men on.

    Read More
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  21. @matt
    This isn't all that "surprising" or "shocking" outside of India. The reason why it remains controversial in the subcontinent is because of the political priorities of right-wing Hindu nationalism. Unlike right-wing nationalists outside the continent, who often celebrate the Aryan conquerors, Hindu nationalists usually deny the Aryan invasions, since affirming their existence would make it much harder to claim that Abrahamic faiths like Islam and Christianity are "invasive", anti-Indian, foreign threats. If Indo-European speakers really did conquer the subcontinent, then pretty much everyone in India is a descendant of invaders, not just Muslims. That's why this article in The Hindu needs to preface its argument by pointing out how shocking it appears to be, and it's why there's so much pushback in the comments from Indian readers.

    Hindu nationalism isn't the only right-wing ideology refuted by these findings, incidentally. Modern HBD-infused Euro-American nationalism is in the same boat as its subcontinental counterpart, if for different reasons. Contrary to what 19th and 20th century figures like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hitler, Rushton, and Lynn expected, there doesn't seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence, even though, as this article observes, "the ANI [Ancestral North Indian; i.e., Aryan] ancestry [is] higher in traditionally upper caste and Indo-European speakers."

    Contrary to what 19th and 20th century figures like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hitler, Rushton, and Lynn expected, there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence

    This isn’t entirely surprising, given that the entire point of caste was to entrench the invading Aryans among the elites. The lack of meritocracy (i.e. sorting by ability) meant that smart Dravidians in lower castes had no route to advancement, and a compelling reason to embrace non-Hindu religions that offered them this route. If not for the East India Company, India might well be a Muslim country today.

    Read More
    • Replies: @matt

    This isn’t entirely surprising
     
    It was entirely surprising to Greg Cochran in that thread I linked to. It would have been surprising to Nietzsche, de Gobineau, Chamberlain, Rosenberg, Hitler et al. It would have been surprising to Rushton and Jensen, who wrote, without providing a single citation, that "In India, members of the higher castes obtain higher mean scores and examination marks than do those of the lower castes" (2005: 283).

    Now, I have no doubt that an ad hoc explanation could be invented that would save the hereditarian hypothesis were it true, but you can make up ad hoc explanations to save any hypothesis.


    The lack of meritocracy (i.e. sorting by ability) meant that smart Dravidians in lower castes had no route to advancement, and a compelling reason to embrace non-Hindu religions that offered them this route
     
    First, although Islam and Christianity are officially anti-caste, the caste system still exists among these communities. People don't forget what caste you belong to just because you convert. Second, your explanation, if combined with a hereditarian hypothesis, predicts even larger caste gaps than the latter predicts on its own. If smart lower-caste people are leaving Hinduism (which, as I said above, doesn't necessarily mean their caste status goes away, but that seems to be your assumption in any case), then that should leave an even larger gap between the higher and lower castes.
    , @Lot
    There was still social mobility within the middle and upper classes. The Brahmans included, then and now, a lot of people with living standards that would be below average for Central America.


    If not for the East India Company, India might well be a Muslim country today.
     
    Probably not entirely, but much more than it is now. Pre-British India featured a lot more hindus under Muslim rule than vice versa.
    , @Vinay
    "If not for the East India Company, India might well be a Muslim country today."

    Umm...no. The Marathas were the dominant power in the India by the time British colonization started. And there was a rising Sikh power. Muslim power peaked around 1700 or so.
    , @Numinous
    You have no idea what you are talking about. First, "Dravidian" is not synonymous with "low caste". Second, Dravidians and Aryans (northerners really) have no history of conflict ever (the 20th century separatist movements were inspired by 19th century theories, and have nothing to do with historical memory); they all considered themselves part of one Vedic civilization. Third, Dravidians have done rather well for themselves historically speaking. Well into the Islamic era, southern kingdoms and dynasties were not just up and standing, they were themselves colonizing lands in SE Asia (e.g., the Cholas.)

    As for the East India Company, it intruded just at the point when Hindus were getting the upper hand. The Marathas were the most powerful force in India throughout the 18th century, and the Mughal emperor had become their virtual puppet. The British were just a band of mercantile brigands who saw their opportunity with a lot of "infighting" in the subcontinent, made some good bets about who to ally with and who to oppose, and spread their rule like cancer throughout the country.
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  22. neutral says:

    The real question now, that I am sure is on a lot of minds, is what exactly did these Aryans look like ? Did they look like something that would have satisfied Third Reich idealists or would they have looked more like people look like in Iran ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Well, genetics suggest that they were a European people - an offshoot of the Corded Ware Culture - therefore one would expect them to be phenotypically European.

    Originally.
    , @Brother Ma
    Like Iranians of course. Aryans are the original white people /Caucasians . So the stereotype white person is closer to a Greek,Armenian or Iranian.
    Hitler simply blathered on about Aryans needing to be blue eyed and blonde ALL thetime. In fact ,his conception is simply the Nordic subtype . Have you ever seen real Germans? Hitler and his propaganda minister were so dark they could pass for southern Greeks or Italians. Still white /Caucasian but not Of Nordic subtype.

    The Kalash in Pakistan and the green -eyed girl of National Geographic cover fame are all examples of people who are originally Aryan from those original invasions or of the Nordic subtype frpm Alexander,s Macedonian Northern Greek settlers. In Iran today you still find many blue eyed blonde types of this Nordic subtype but to conclude: Iranian.
    , @Flip
    I think the ANI/ASI article a few years ago tied the Aryans to Georgians, and there is the Indo-Iranian subset of the Indo-European languages, suggesting a connection there.
    , @JohnnyWalker123
    Most likely, Iran.

    If you look at northern Indians, they look nothing like Germans or Euros. Their appearance, however, is often pretty similar to what you might find in Iran or Afghanistan. My guess is that the
    Pathans might be a pretty good representation of what Indo-Europeans looked like.
    , @Difference Maker
    The Iranian Scythians of classical times are described as tall and blond by the Greeks. They also roamed the proposed original Indo European homeland.

    Then of course we have the example of the ancient blond Celts, the blond Germanics, the blond Slavs, the blond Tocharians, an early eastern offshoot of the Indo European migrations

    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    I believe it is definitely the latter. It is popular belief among the Aryan fantasists that blond hair and blue eyes originated among the Aryans/Proto Indo-Europeans. There is zero evidence for this. If you look at a map showing the predominance of blond hair in Europe, it looks like a concentric circle centered in Finland (one of the few areas in Europe where the Indo-Europeans did not leave their linguistic imprint). And it is widely agreed that the proto-Indo Europeans originated much farther south than that - between the Black and Caspian seas or even Anatolia. In all likelihood, blond hair originated in far Northern Europe well before the time of the Indo-European invasions.
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  23. Lot says:
    @matt
    This isn't all that "surprising" or "shocking" outside of India. The reason why it remains controversial in the subcontinent is because of the political priorities of right-wing Hindu nationalism. Unlike right-wing nationalists outside the continent, who often celebrate the Aryan conquerors, Hindu nationalists usually deny the Aryan invasions, since affirming their existence would make it much harder to claim that Abrahamic faiths like Islam and Christianity are "invasive", anti-Indian, foreign threats. If Indo-European speakers really did conquer the subcontinent, then pretty much everyone in India is a descendant of invaders, not just Muslims. That's why this article in The Hindu needs to preface its argument by pointing out how shocking it appears to be, and it's why there's so much pushback in the comments from Indian readers.

    Hindu nationalism isn't the only right-wing ideology refuted by these findings, incidentally. Modern HBD-infused Euro-American nationalism is in the same boat as its subcontinental counterpart, if for different reasons. Contrary to what 19th and 20th century figures like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hitler, Rushton, and Lynn expected, there doesn't seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence, even though, as this article observes, "the ANI [Ancestral North Indian; i.e., Aryan] ancestry [is] higher in traditionally upper caste and Indo-European speakers."

    there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence

    Your link does not provide evidence of it. A few posts down are a ton of Indian IQ studies with results all over the map, 107 this 73 that.

    Lacking good idea, common sense tells us Parsis and merchant castes will have higher than mean IQs, and the primitive phenotype tribes probably have genetic IQs in line with other primitive Asian groups like Papuans and Australian Aborigines.

    Read More
    • Replies: @matt
    If you had bothered to follow the thread. You would have found a link to this source. Please read next time so you don't waste my time.
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  24. But can DNA studies tell us whether the Aryan invaders spoke with bad Churmann accents?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Inquiring Mind
    They didn't speak Churmann, they spoke "Austrian": Mr. Obama told us as much https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1diNthezRk
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  25. matt says:
    @Lot

    there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence
     
    Your link does not provide evidence of it. A few posts down are a ton of Indian IQ studies with results all over the map, 107 this 73 that.

    Lacking good idea, common sense tells us Parsis and merchant castes will have higher than mean IQs, and the primitive phenotype tribes probably have genetic IQs in line with other primitive Asian groups like Papuans and Australian Aborigines.

    If you had bothered to follow the thread. You would have found a link to this source. Please read next time so you don’t waste my time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    At least in the country from where I'm trying to reach them, the pages you linked are unavailable for viewing.

    In any event, if I recall correctly, you are the commenter who last year touted the Eyferth study as some sort of strong evidence against hereditary theories of racial IQ differences. So I'm not totally confident how strong your evidence will prove to be.

    Nevertheless, I can tell you what I told you the last time: either way, we'll have a lot of strong evidence very soon, so it's pointless to get into debates where both of us are unwilling to change our opinions.

    , @EH
    But that book, despite being by the highly regarded Sternberg, does not cite nearly as many sources - three - as the post to which Lot referred, which cites thirty-one. No wonder you're a bit snippy when your position is carpet-bombed like that.
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  26. melanf says:
    @Anonymous
    Apparently, the ancient Indo-European speaking peoples who invaded India in those distant far-off days were, originally at least, closer genetic relations of such living populations as modern Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Lithuanians etc than to modern Indians.
    Even living Britons are closer relations to them than modern Indians are.

    Apparently, the ancient Indo-European speaking peoples who invaded India in those distant far-off days were, originally at least, closer genetic relations of such living populations as modern Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Lithuanians etc than to modern Indians.

    Surviving on the border of Europe a relic of the ancient “Aryans” – the Ossetians

    http://www.balto-slavica.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=16468

    Read More
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The c. 2003 King Arthur movie, the one with Clive Owen, follows the theory that King Arthur was an Ossetian who enlisted at an early age in the Roman legions and was assigned to Britain, and then stayed on to help the Britons fight the invading Anglo-Saxons when the legions were called home in 410 AD.
    , @Davidski
    Nope, present-day Ossetians are a fairly typical Caucasian population and too southern genetically. Plus they don't have the right Y-chromosomes.

    You need something like the ancient Yamnaya people of the southern Russian steppes with a lot of R1a-Z93.
    , @anon

    Surviving on the border of Europe a relic of the ancient “Aryans” – the Ossetians
     
    Did you check their genetics?
    From what I've read they're not R1a dominant, just linguistically Iranian/Aryan - genetically closer to Caucasus populations.

    If I remember correctly, the purest Aryans R1a were Bengali upper castes - Brahmins and Kshatriyas.

    Others where these genes are dominant would be
    1. Other upper castes in India and Nepal
    2. Uzbeks
    3. Tajiks
    4. Pashtuns of Afghanistan
    5. Slavs (except non-Slovenian Southern Slavs. So Melania is all good :D )
    6. Balts

    Greeks and Scandinavins also have more of the genes than most other Europeans.

    Funnily, the 'purest Aryans' in Europe are Poles. Yes. Poles, mr. Hitler :D

    You can see that isolated Iranian speakers in Pamiri mountains still often look European:
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4N7gomy7JXU/TlR35UiOJyI/AAAAAAAAAnk/4Qd5FxvV9q4/s1600/Pamiri+faces+6.jpg
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  27. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Hindoo
    I don't understand why abject Euro-Whites suffer from this OCD about "Aryans".

    Instead of such useless endeavours such as finding correlation between penis size and IQ, Euro-Whites would do better to find a cure for Wewuzkangzosis pathologicalis.

    At least success in the latter would mean a few less world wars.

    Speaking of IQ, the Proto-Indo-Europeans (and their bronze age progeny) were unmitigated savages who didn't have the IQ to build any civilization anywhere.

    "Aryans" became Kangz because of the diligence of Dravidians of the Indus Valley.
    Persians became Kangz because of the diligence of Elamites.
    Romans became Kangz because of the diligence of Etruscans.
    Greeks became Kangz because of the diligence of Minoans.

    Wherever Indo-Euros couldn't find a civilizations to parasitise, they remained in their barbaric state of existence, just like the Celts and Teutons and Slavs and Tocharians.

    They were the ultimate welfare-parasites of their time. Much like Turks in Germany today.

    But hey, Turkics were even better than "Aryan" Indo-Euros in the invasion business. Look at what the Oghuz Turkmens did to Anatolia. This is the same thing they'll do to Germany.

    Perhaps then, in a not so distant future, Euro-Whites would masturbate thinking of their connection to Genghiz and Hulagu, just as the other commenters are masturbating now to "Aryans".

    In fact, Hungarians have already started fapping themselves.

    Seems that Mitra and Varuna are not without a sense of irony.

    Strangely enough, recent genetic research suggests that the founding stock ‘Turk’ population were actually a hybrid between classic Mongolid stock and Euro-related steppic peoples on the paternal side.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hindoo
    Quite encouraging, my otherwise irrelevant friend.

    This clearly explains why an increasing number of male denizens of Wewuzkangzistan have started apostatising from their ethnomythological religion.

    Hence, the need for Asian wives, to infuse the Euro-White bloodlines with Orientally despotic and Asiatically cruel blood, to finally transform the self-admitted betas into alphas.

    Surely this reconstructed basal Turk would kick ass of all the Jooz, Mooz and Coonz (which per se is neither good nor bad).

    But it certainly won't be the "Aryan" of the Rigveda masturbators' imagination.

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  28. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @neutral
    The real question now, that I am sure is on a lot of minds, is what exactly did these Aryans look like ? Did they look like something that would have satisfied Third Reich idealists or would they have looked more like people look like in Iran ?

    Well, genetics suggest that they were a European people – an offshoot of the Corded Ware Culture – therefore one would expect them to be phenotypically European.

    Originally.

    Read More
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  29. matt says:
    @Johann Ricke

    Contrary to what 19th and 20th century figures like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hitler, Rushton, and Lynn expected, there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence
     
    This isn't entirely surprising, given that the entire point of caste was to entrench the invading Aryans among the elites. The lack of meritocracy (i.e. sorting by ability) meant that smart Dravidians in lower castes had no route to advancement, and a compelling reason to embrace non-Hindu religions that offered them this route. If not for the East India Company, India might well be a Muslim country today.

    This isn’t entirely surprising

    It was entirely surprising to Greg Cochran in that thread I linked to. It would have been surprising to Nietzsche, de Gobineau, Chamberlain, Rosenberg, Hitler et al. It would have been surprising to Rushton and Jensen, who wrote, without providing a single citation, that “In India, members of the higher castes obtain higher mean scores and examination marks than do those of the lower castes” (2005: 283).

    Now, I have no doubt that an ad hoc explanation could be invented that would save the hereditarian hypothesis were it true, but you can make up ad hoc explanations to save any hypothesis.

    The lack of meritocracy (i.e. sorting by ability) meant that smart Dravidians in lower castes had no route to advancement, and a compelling reason to embrace non-Hindu religions that offered them this route

    First, although Islam and Christianity are officially anti-caste, the caste system still exists among these communities. People don’t forget what caste you belong to just because you convert. Second, your explanation, if combined with a hereditarian hypothesis, predicts even larger caste gaps than the latter predicts on its own. If smart lower-caste people are leaving Hinduism (which, as I said above, doesn’t necessarily mean their caste status goes away, but that seems to be your assumption in any case), then that should leave an even larger gap between the higher and lower castes.

    Read More
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  30. Lot says:

    In you link I see a grand total of two paragraphs about Indian IQ in a book published 16 years ago citing even older studies. And even that says IQ tests show differences in caste IQ, others don’t.

    Your statement “there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence” remains unsupported and completely contrary to everything we know about India and common sense. Sure, the merchant castes and feces-hauling castes have the same IQ, that makes complete sense.

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    • Replies: @matt

    And even that says IQ tests [sic]show differences in caste IQ, others don’t.
     
    It says that there are no differences on Raven's Progressive Matrices, which is the the single most highly g-loaded test, which Jensen called a more-or-less pure measure of g. There are differences on other, less g-loaded tests.

    The date of the studies cited doesn't matter, since it isn't as if there have been any revolutionary breakthroughs in giving people IQ tests. If you have later data that contradicts this, feel free to present it. Otherwise you can accept the scientific evidence I've presented, or you can go with your hunches and your "common sense". If you choose the latter option, though, don't pretend like you represent the side of scientific rationality in this argument, and that everyone who disagrees with you is some PC snowflake who can't accept the cold hard truth.
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  31. Lot says:
    @Johann Ricke

    Contrary to what 19th and 20th century figures like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hitler, Rushton, and Lynn expected, there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence
     
    This isn't entirely surprising, given that the entire point of caste was to entrench the invading Aryans among the elites. The lack of meritocracy (i.e. sorting by ability) meant that smart Dravidians in lower castes had no route to advancement, and a compelling reason to embrace non-Hindu religions that offered them this route. If not for the East India Company, India might well be a Muslim country today.

    There was still social mobility within the middle and upper classes. The Brahmans included, then and now, a lot of people with living standards that would be below average for Central America.

    If not for the East India Company, India might well be a Muslim country today.

    Probably not entirely, but much more than it is now. Pre-British India featured a lot more hindus under Muslim rule than vice versa.

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  32. matt says:
    @Lot
    In you link I see a grand total of two paragraphs about Indian IQ in a book published 16 years ago citing even older studies. And even that says IQ tests show differences in caste IQ, others don't.

    Your statement "there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence" remains unsupported and completely contrary to everything we know about India and common sense. Sure, the merchant castes and feces-hauling castes have the same IQ, that makes complete sense.

    And even that says IQ tests [sic]show differences in caste IQ, others don’t.

    It says that there are no differences on Raven’s Progressive Matrices, which is the the single most highly g-loaded test, which Jensen called a more-or-less pure measure of g. There are differences on other, less g-loaded tests.

    The date of the studies cited doesn’t matter, since it isn’t as if there have been any revolutionary breakthroughs in giving people IQ tests. If you have later data that contradicts this, feel free to present it. Otherwise you can accept the scientific evidence I’ve presented, or you can go with your hunches and your “common sense”. If you choose the latter option, though, don’t pretend like you represent the side of scientific rationality in this argument, and that everyone who disagrees with you is some PC snowflake who can’t accept the cold hard truth.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lot

    Raven’s Progressive Matrices, which is the the single most highly g-loaded test
     
    Then why is the most effected by the Flynn effect? 2.4 standard deviation improvement in Western test-takers compared to ~0.3 for arthritic. If you knew anything about India, you'd be skeptical of any claim to have tested representative samples of the population. What we do know is that India has a massive affirmative action program for the lower castes in its otherwise meritocratic examination-based university admissions. Where it actually counts, the lower castes do far worse on g-loaded tests.

    Otherwise you can accept the scientific evidence I’ve presented
     
    Two paragraphs in a book is not "scientific evidence."

    everyone who disagrees with you is some PC snowflake who can’t accept the cold hard truth
     
    So you are not a PC snowflake then? Humor me and let me know your estimates for genotypical IQ for the following groups: NE Asians, Ashkenazi, white Americans, black Americans, SE Asians, Pakistanis.
    , @Rodolfo
    No. Raven is not the "most g loaded test". Consider that the Wais IV test has a subtest almost identical to Raven, "Matrix Reasoning", and that not only is it not the subtest with the highest g-loading, as it has a g-loading identical to the subtest "Vocabulary". Considering the test as a whole, the Wais g-loading is bigger than Raven's, simply because it is more diverse in the kind of questions it has. Look:

    https://books.google.com.br/books?id=4iHTzkqdQYQC&lpg=PA36&pg=PA36#v=onepage

    Consider also that there is a massive evidence of scholastic hability difference between castes and that this in turn represents evidence of a difference in IQ between them. Even if there is a study in which no difference in IQ was found among Indian castes, remember that of the limited number of samples in these studies. If you have evidence of any massively applied test such as the US SAT, please show us.
    , @Yak-15
    Passive aggressive ribs like writing (sic) after a quote as an ad hominem attack detract from an argument.
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  33. @neutral
    The real question now, that I am sure is on a lot of minds, is what exactly did these Aryans look like ? Did they look like something that would have satisfied Third Reich idealists or would they have looked more like people look like in Iran ?

    Like Iranians of course. Aryans are the original white people /Caucasians . So the stereotype white person is closer to a Greek,Armenian or Iranian.
    Hitler simply blathered on about Aryans needing to be blue eyed and blonde ALL thetime. In fact ,his conception is simply the Nordic subtype . Have you ever seen real Germans? Hitler and his propaganda minister were so dark they could pass for southern Greeks or Italians. Still white /Caucasian but not Of Nordic subtype.

    The Kalash in Pakistan and the green -eyed girl of National Geographic cover fame are all examples of people who are originally Aryan from those original invasions or of the Nordic subtype frpm Alexander,s Macedonian Northern Greek settlers. In Iran today you still find many blue eyed blonde types of this Nordic subtype but to conclude: Iranian.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Aryan-ness was going to be a big theme in John Huston's version of Kipling's The Man Who Would Be King -- Daniel Dravot argues that the Kafiristanis can become as civilized as the Europeans they resemble, while Peachy Carnehan doesn't trust them -- but they wound up having to shoot the movie in Morocco with a lot of dusky extras, so they used Michael Caine's dark Indian wife as Roxana.
    , @Anonymous
    The DNA of subjects taken from the Sintashta and Androvono archaeological horizions - the earliest known sites for peoples identified as 'Iranians' resemble Europeans more than the present-day inhabitants of Iran.
    , @DB Cooper
    I had a classmate years ago and he is from Iran and he has the bluest eye I have ever seen in a real life person.
    , @reiner Tor

    Hitler and his propaganda minister were so dark
     
    They both had dark hair (though Goebbels had darker brown, Hitler had medium brown), but while Goebbels had brown eyes, Hitler's eyes were blue. Their complexion was white, which is the color of most South Europeans (and even a lot of MENA people), especially if they do office work in Northern Europe and don't get much suntan. I think both were close to the German average in terms of skin color.
    , @nebulafox
    Farsi is far more related to European languages than to Semitic languages like Arabic or Hebrew. It is a surprisingly easy language to learn for English speakers, in spite of the Arabic-style writing script and name.

    Anyway, yes. Persians are more or less Islamized Caucasians-quite literally, in fact, when you consider that everything related to the word "Aryan" comes originally from Iran. Pale skin and green eyes are very common. They've "only" been Shi'a since the 17th Century. They've been Persian since the beginning of time.

    (It's tricky to speak of an "Iranian", because Iran is a pretty diverse place with lots of minorities. But like China, there's very clearly an overwhelmingly dominant culture that has an uninterrupted cultural tapestry going back thousands of years. Russia, too, deals with this misconception-less than 4/5ths of the populace is ethnically Russian, yet a lot of secularized Central Asian/Tartar types identify completely with Russian culture and the Kremlin politically. As one example, Shoygu-Putin's minister of Defense and one of his top cronies-is half Tuvan and a Buddhist, and one of the men Putin seems to admire most is this elderly Muslim general and leading military theorist in Russia, Makhmut Gareev.)

    , @Almost Missouri

    "Hitler simply blathered on about Aryans needing to be blue eyed and blonde ALL the time."
     
    While Hitler certainly blathered about Aryans, as far as I know, he never bothered defining the term (other than as non-Jewish), possibly because, as you mention, he and many of his henchmen didn't resemble the Nordic stereotype. Or maybe he was being politic, as he made political and military alliances with people who were Southern European, Balkan, and even Arab and Indian.
    , @Jaakko Raipala

    Like Iranians of course. Aryans are the original white people /Caucasians . So the stereotype white person is closer to a Greek,Armenian or Iranian.
     
    Wrong, according to the models so far northern Europeans are the closest thing to proto-Indo-Europeans and Greeks are not very Indo-European. Figure 3 of this paper:

    https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/full/nature14317.html

    I googled up some random link straight to the picture if you can't access Nature:

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NoGN9ni1kms/VOSGkPjblNI/AAAAAAAACBo/ROwmMxVJFpI/s1600/Untitled3.png

    The green component is their modeled relatedness to the ancient corpses sampled from this culture, a genetic component that did not exist in Europe or India before a mass migration from the Eastern European steppe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture

    Now, there are of course a lot of assumptions in a model like this. What they do is they *assume* that European peoples are a combination of three migration waves - the hunter-gatherers that repopulated the continent after the glaciers withdrew, the farmers from the Middle East and then those Yamna culture invaders from the Eastern European steppe - and then calculate the percentage of each ancestry. The method will be inaccurate if some people has a component outside of those three but that kind of components haven't really been found in most of Europe (apart from areas influenced by Finno-Ugric and Turkic peoples).

    Another possibility is that there may have been other invasions from the east of peoples that might have been somewhat related to proto-Indo-Europeans. However that would be irrelevant to the point of figuring out which of today's ethnic groups most resemble original Indo-Europeans - the green bar would still be a representation of "Indo-European + components similar to Indo-European".

    Indo-Europeans did not originate in Scandinavia or the Baltic states but it appears that these areas got the most population replacement by Indo-European invaders. Considering the high frequency of recessive traits like blondeness and blue eyes in the areas, the Indo-Europeans must have been pretty blue eyed and blonde themselves or pale phenotypes would have been buried in the north. (With the caveat that there of course might have been more selection for these traits over the past few thousand years.)

    Of course the native hunter-gatherers of northern Europe must have also been rather blonde so those old European authors looking at "Aryans" as the source of blondeness were only half right - the Indo-Europeans must have been pretty blonde but northern Europeans must have already been pretty blonde even before Indo-Europeans.

    These models are going to get much better and more detailed in the near future, of course, so things may change but at this point the evidene is that the Indo-Europeans looked more like Norwegians and Lithuanians than Greeks or Armenians.
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  34. Ulysses says:

    Whats with this problemazation of Aryan refugees? They were mainly women and children fleeing from violence, and everyone except the worst kinds of racists knows that. India wasn’t “invaded” it was just culturally enriched

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    • Replies: @Moshe
    Yeah, no response is because a lot of people here don't get sarcasm unless you spell it out clearly for them. Heck they don't get anything nuanced, you have to hit em over the head with a hammer.
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  35. […] sind auch manche Kommentare unter diesem Blogpost, über den ich auf den Artikel aufmerksam geworden […]

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  36. Vinay says:

    “The reason for the difference in mtDNA and Y-DNA data is obvious in hindsight: there was strong sex bias in Bronze Age migrations”

    This doesn’t sound much like an invasion, at least as popularly imagined. “Aryan invasion” is usually imagined as something like the European colonization of the Americas or the Jewish colonization of Palestine — a clear *displacement* of the native population.

    This makes the “Aryan invasion” seem like the “Norman invasion” or like any of the countless other invasions into India.

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  37. Sunbeam says:
    @Hindoo
    I don't understand why abject Euro-Whites suffer from this OCD about "Aryans".

    Instead of such useless endeavours such as finding correlation between penis size and IQ, Euro-Whites would do better to find a cure for Wewuzkangzosis pathologicalis.

    At least success in the latter would mean a few less world wars.

    Speaking of IQ, the Proto-Indo-Europeans (and their bronze age progeny) were unmitigated savages who didn't have the IQ to build any civilization anywhere.

    "Aryans" became Kangz because of the diligence of Dravidians of the Indus Valley.
    Persians became Kangz because of the diligence of Elamites.
    Romans became Kangz because of the diligence of Etruscans.
    Greeks became Kangz because of the diligence of Minoans.

    Wherever Indo-Euros couldn't find a civilizations to parasitise, they remained in their barbaric state of existence, just like the Celts and Teutons and Slavs and Tocharians.

    They were the ultimate welfare-parasites of their time. Much like Turks in Germany today.

    But hey, Turkics were even better than "Aryan" Indo-Euros in the invasion business. Look at what the Oghuz Turkmens did to Anatolia. This is the same thing they'll do to Germany.

    Perhaps then, in a not so distant future, Euro-Whites would masturbate thinking of their connection to Genghiz and Hulagu, just as the other commenters are masturbating now to "Aryans".

    In fact, Hungarians have already started fapping themselves.

    Seems that Mitra and Varuna are not without a sense of irony.

    “Aryans” became Kangz because of the diligence of Dravidians of the Indus Valley.”

    You are making a funny, but while I am unclear on some of your examples, I’d like to hear any input from anyone (I’ve seen some Indian posters for example on here) who knows much about the Dravidians.

    From stray things I’ve read the Dravidians had advanced agriculture for the era, had massive cities for the era, and had Roman level plumbing (1000+ years before Rome?).

    Whereas concerning the Aryans… somewhere I read a description of them with their key features listed:

    1) They liked horses.
    2) They really liked horses.
    3) They drank milk
    4) They really liked to fight.
    5) They really, really liked to fight.
    6) They didn’t like to work
    7) They really liked [insert yourself here] making you do their work for them.

    and this is more speculative,

    8) They were kinda short guys, maybe even kind of swarthy, with black hair. Not sure where that one came from, some kind of thing mocking Nazis and blondicism I guess. You know Hitler himself was actually the phenotype Aryan, not the guy on the posters. Maybe, maybe not.
    9) Oh yeah, and that whole language thing.

    Anyway, my understanding is from this site that India has some really high IQ people in the upper castes (descended from Aryans?), and a gigantic mass of the lower IQ peoples that are the grist of this site.

    But at the time of this invasion, it sure seems to me that it was one of those cookie cutter horse nomad invasions of a more advanced culture we’ve seen time and again in history.

    Any Indians or knowledgeable people on the subject got any input on this?

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    • Replies: @K
    Assuming even the aryan invasion is true which i dont believe is true simply because of the saraswati question, among other reasons. The rig veda (atleast the earliest part of it) is centered around worshiping the saraswati river, which dried up by 1900 B.C....before the aryans came.

    Or just because they 'invaded' doesnt mean they were more 'advanced'. Were mongols more 'advanced' than the people they invaded? Were the huns?

    Also many backward castes in india are 'less' dark-skinned than the arya-vysya caste that is an upper caste.

    The aryan 'invasion' theory is a joke.
    , @reiner Tor
    My unscientific impression is that South Indian upper castes (quite dark, much darker than any Northerners, regardless of caste) are in general the most intelligent types.
    , @Anonymous
    I'm a South Indian Tamil Brahmin. Other South Indian castes consider us Aryan, North Indians consider us Dravidian, and my community really is sort of in the middle. We speak a Sanskritized (i.e Aryanized) register of Tamil (a Dravidian language). We are lighter-skinned than many other South Indian castes, but darker-skinned than most North Indians. Genetic tests confirm we are closer to West Eurasians than other South Indian castes, but not as close to West Eurasians as most North Indian castes.

    I do think Dravidian Brahmins have evidence for higher intellectual achievement than most other communities, both Aryan and Dravidian. Tamil Brahmins form only 0.2% of India's population, but three of the five Indian Nobel prize winners in science/economics come from that community. The former World Chess Champion Vishwanathan Anand is a Tamil Brahmin. Google CEO Sundar Pichai and Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella are both Dravidian Brahmins.

    My personal hypothesis is that this is a result of a founder effect - high-achieving Aryan Brahmins from the North came to the South as priests and teachers, just like high-achieving Indians travel to the US today. And then they intermarried with pre-existing intellectual classes in the native Dravidian society, which was fairly advanced in its own way.

    There is no convincing evidence that the Indus Valley civilization was Dravidian. We have little idea of what language the Indus Valley people spoke. There are several findings that suggest cultural continuity with Hinduism, though, including veneration of fig trees, bulls and some yoga poses.

    There is little in modern India to give credence to theories of Aryan supremacy, though. The Dravidian South Indian states outperform the majority of the Aryan-speaking states of the North in pretty much every social and economic indicator. Much of this might be because of Muslim invaders wiping out the human capital in the North over the last thousand years, like Genghis Khan wiped out the human capital of Baghdad, but it's hard to say for certain.
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  38. spandrell says: • Website
    @AaronB
    I never understood why linguistic similarities allowed us to conclude similarity of race. All it seems to suggest is proximity, interaction, and influence. Lot of different races in the same area spoke the same or similar languages.

    Its like future archeologists, after the Catastrophe, will conclude that people in Hong Kong and England were part of some great original race.

    Maybe I'm missing something. Can someone explain why it isn't a leap to posit an Indo-Aryan race based on linguistic similarity?

    Hong Kong people speak atrocious English.

    Languages are never shared absent widespread coercion, i.e. violence. Doesn’t happen. If it did happen what you’d find is a sort of merger. But that’s not what Sanskrit is. It really is very pure indo-european.

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    • Replies: @Jim
    Sanskrit is of course very important in the reconstruction of Proto-Indo-European but it is by no means identical to Proto-Indo-European. Sanskrit is not necessarily closer to Proto-Indo-European than Anatolian languages.
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  39. @Hindoo
    I don't understand why abject Euro-Whites suffer from this OCD about "Aryans".

    Instead of such useless endeavours such as finding correlation between penis size and IQ, Euro-Whites would do better to find a cure for Wewuzkangzosis pathologicalis.

    At least success in the latter would mean a few less world wars.

    Speaking of IQ, the Proto-Indo-Europeans (and their bronze age progeny) were unmitigated savages who didn't have the IQ to build any civilization anywhere.

    "Aryans" became Kangz because of the diligence of Dravidians of the Indus Valley.
    Persians became Kangz because of the diligence of Elamites.
    Romans became Kangz because of the diligence of Etruscans.
    Greeks became Kangz because of the diligence of Minoans.

    Wherever Indo-Euros couldn't find a civilizations to parasitise, they remained in their barbaric state of existence, just like the Celts and Teutons and Slavs and Tocharians.

    They were the ultimate welfare-parasites of their time. Much like Turks in Germany today.

    But hey, Turkics were even better than "Aryan" Indo-Euros in the invasion business. Look at what the Oghuz Turkmens did to Anatolia. This is the same thing they'll do to Germany.

    Perhaps then, in a not so distant future, Euro-Whites would masturbate thinking of their connection to Genghiz and Hulagu, just as the other commenters are masturbating now to "Aryans".

    In fact, Hungarians have already started fapping themselves.

    Seems that Mitra and Varuna are not without a sense of irony.

    LOL why u mad tho? Unlike the sub-Saharan “kangz,” the Aryans kicked trans-continental ass, built and expanded civilizations, and had awesome pantheons made in their image. Actual footage from back in the day:

    How soft your fields so green
    Can whisper tales of gore
    Of how we calmed the tides of war
    We are your overlords

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    • Replies: @Hindoo
    No, my (imbecile or intoxicated) friend.

    Aryans were disgusting Third World gastarbeiteren imported to mow the lawns in the public gardens of the Harappan metropolis.

    Unfortunately, at some point of time, the Dravidian elites became totally cucked, and with generous help from their Dravidian SJW snowflake foot soldiers, they ruined this great civilization by integrating the Aryans and passing anti-Dravidian laws (specifically, the Racial Equality Act of 1998 BCE and the Civil Rights Act of 1995 BCE) and enabling affirmative action for Aryans.

    After that, it was all downhill, as the inner city Aryans went totally ape and demanded government handouts while Dravidian mainstream media remained silent on the issue of Aryan-on-Dravidian crimes (particularly rape).

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  40. Vinay says:
    @Johann Ricke

    Contrary to what 19th and 20th century figures like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hitler, Rushton, and Lynn expected, there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence
     
    This isn't entirely surprising, given that the entire point of caste was to entrench the invading Aryans among the elites. The lack of meritocracy (i.e. sorting by ability) meant that smart Dravidians in lower castes had no route to advancement, and a compelling reason to embrace non-Hindu religions that offered them this route. If not for the East India Company, India might well be a Muslim country today.

    “If not for the East India Company, India might well be a Muslim country today.”

    Umm…no. The Marathas were the dominant power in the India by the time British colonization started. And there was a rising Sikh power. Muslim power peaked around 1700 or so.

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  41. conatus says:

    In invasions, males get slaughtered and women get screwed. It is easier for them to be raped than to fight back, at lest according to genetic results.
    They get raped by the invaders whereas the guys get their heads chopped off.

    The Guanches lived in the Canary Islands undisturbed for a thousand years. They were a Berber descended peoples who inhabited the Canary islands peacefully for a 1000 years until the Spanish discovered them in the 1450s and conquered them.Whose genes made it into the future, men or women?
    Not the guy’s!
    Roughly 6 times as many feminist genes as guys.

    “Admixture analysis taking the Iberians, Northwest and West sub-Saharan African populations as parental sources of the actual Canarian population, gave estimates of around 33% for the maternal4 and 6% for the paternal5 Guanche lineages. This strong sexual asymmetry was explained as a result of a strong bias favouring matings between European males and aboriginal females, and to the important aboriginal male mortality during the Conquest.”

    from here

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v12/n2/full/5201075a.html

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    It appears that a Genoese navigator, Lancelotto Malocello, rediscovered the Canary Islands and the Guanche people as early as 1312 AD. He was looking for the lost explorer Vivaldi Brothers who had sailed in the general direction of the Canaries in 1291, 200 years before the Portuguese, with the intention of circumnavigating Africa en route to India but had disappeared from history.
    , @Opinionator
    They get raped by the invaders whereas the guys get their heads chopped off.

    Rape or hypergamy?
    , @Coemgen
    Speaking of sub-saharan africans, why does there appear to be a dearth of science regarding the Y-chromosomes of black americans?

    There's certainly no shortage of narratives explaining the mixed-race genetics of black americans.

    Something tells me the dominant narrative and the science are more alike in the dominant narrative than the science and the dominant narrative are in the science.
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  42. Northern India was a relatively populous place at the time of the Aryan invasion, so it will likely have taken a substantial number of invaders. If these were all or mostly male Aryans, as it appears (not surprisingly), what happened to the women left behind, actually? Did the men that stayed with them take on more than one wife, or at least impregnate more than one each, did the women stay single and childless, did they import men from elsewhere, did they themselves emigrate elsewhere? Were the Aryans pastoralists and could the women take on the tasks of the men who left?

    Such male invasions happend many times in human history. I would like to know more about the history of the women left behind. Might be rather interesting. Any good links anyone?

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    • Replies: @Lot

    I would like to know more about the history of the women left behind.
     
    Polygamy and death from childbirth.
    , @Daniel H
    >>Northern India was a relatively populous place at the time of the Aryan invasion, so it will likely have taken a substantial number of invaders

    Only 300 or so Spanish warriors conquered the heavily populated Aztec empire.

    Pizarro overthrew the massive Inca empire with 200 or so warriors.
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  43. TheJester says:
    @matt
    This isn't all that "surprising" or "shocking" outside of India. The reason why it remains controversial in the subcontinent is because of the political priorities of right-wing Hindu nationalism. Unlike right-wing nationalists outside the continent, who often celebrate the Aryan conquerors, Hindu nationalists usually deny the Aryan invasions, since affirming their existence would make it much harder to claim that Abrahamic faiths like Islam and Christianity are "invasive", anti-Indian, foreign threats. If Indo-European speakers really did conquer the subcontinent, then pretty much everyone in India is a descendant of invaders, not just Muslims. That's why this article in The Hindu needs to preface its argument by pointing out how shocking it appears to be, and it's why there's so much pushback in the comments from Indian readers.

    Hindu nationalism isn't the only right-wing ideology refuted by these findings, incidentally. Modern HBD-infused Euro-American nationalism is in the same boat as its subcontinental counterpart, if for different reasons. Contrary to what 19th and 20th century figures like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hitler, Rushton, and Lynn expected, there doesn't seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence, even though, as this article observes, "the ANI [Ancestral North Indian; i.e., Aryan] ancestry [is] higher in traditionally upper caste and Indo-European speakers."

    We made a quick run through the Aryan invasion of India at the university in the 1960s. The story was that the Aryans brought Sanscript, the Hindi religion, and the caste system with them. Hence, it would be interesting to know when PC changed The Narrative.

    As the story went, the Aryan warriors and priests were at the top of the caste system. The native Indians were naturally at the bottom of the caste system … the servants of the upper castes for life as they suffered for their personal transgressions through one of many lives buttressed by a belief in reincarnation. If the lower castes suffer lives of privation and ruin, it is because they deserve it. One need not and should not intervene, even to save lives. This is the same India that my wife saw last year on a two-week tour of the country.

    I have had very well educated Indians, upper castes of course, tell me that the caste system and reincarnation (with one depending on the other) are obvious … like the sun coming up in the morning. They await Westerner Civilization achieving a measure of enlightenment to see the obvious. This is ironic since part of the upper-caste Indian narrative is that the Aryans were also responsible for Western Civilization, including Christianity that is nothing but a compilation of Hindi folktales that made their way from India to the Levant.

    Ideologies of Election, it seems, are almost universal among civilizations to justify caste, class, religious, racial, and cultural domination.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    India strikes me, as it struck Nietzsche, as the single most far right civilization. Of course, he admired that. Me ...
    , @Numinous

    This is the same India that my wife saw last year on a two-week tour of the country.
     
    It's possible (even inevitable) that a foreigner will see a lot of poverty in a two-week tour of India. Everything else is projection though. Just because someone is poor doesn't mean they are lower caste. Just because there are a lot of poor people doesn't mean that society (or its elites) are keeping them in that condition wilfully; it just means that the country is so damn poor that it cannot afford to relieve the condition of its masses.

    Your (or your wife's) impressions sound exactly like David Duke's impressions of India during his visit. Exactly as superficial, exactly as blinkered, exactly as wrong.
    , @Opinionator
    What is "obvious"? That they exist?
    , @grapesoda

    The story was that the Aryans brought Sanscript, the Hindi religion
     
    You just said two very retarded things in your first sentence. Just stop. Just stop. Just stop. You don't know anything about India. You are making a fool out of yourself by trying to rehash your ridiculous 1960s class which was also taught by people who know nothing about India, have never lived in India, and don't participate in or understand any aspects of Indian culture.

    my wife saw last year on a two-week tour of the country
     
    Exactly. But I'm sure because she has white skin and comes from a wealthy country then she's suddenly qualified to judge complex civilizations based on her superficial observations.

    One of the main components of knowledge is to know what you don't know, and where you have some reasonable amount of learning and expertise. Yet here you are sounding off about something about which you have absolutely no knowledge, like an utter fool.

    People like you shouldn't go to University at all. You'd be better off being a welder or something.

    , @Phillip
    "including Christianity that is nothing but a compilation of Hindi folktales that made their way from India to the Levant."

    Uh, I think not. Actual Biblical Scholars and historians believe a massive range of things about the history of the New Testament and the historical Jesus. You can find Orthodox intellectuals like N.T. Wright and Paul Johnson who believe the Biblical texts are largely accurate and trustworthy. You can also find secular atheist scholars like Robert Funk of the Jesus Seminar and John Dominic Crossan who will offer all sorts of ideas, ranging from Crossan's belief that Jesus was actually a Jewish Cynic Philosopher to other claims that he fit into ancient categories of Magician. You can also find scholarly claims that he was a student of Merkabah mysticism, influenced by the Essenes, a zealot, or influenced by Jewish Charismatics like Honi the Circle Drawer.

    There was a time when some scholars tried to claim that the story of Jesus was an imitation of contemporaneous pagan myths, such as that of Mithra, but those theories have fallen out of fashion thanks to the research of David Ulansey in the '80s, who convincingly showed there was no connection between the Persian Mithra of Zoroastianism and the Roman Mithra that seems to have been connected to astrology and the myth of him killing the cosmic bull (I would add that his conclusions have been universally accepted by the Council of Mithraic Studies). You still see people on the internet parroting the now debunked information, but no serious scholar now accepts it or any of the other "pagan christs" put forth by pseudo-scholars like Freke and Gandy.

    While I hold to the more orthodox view of the New Testament, I acknowledge the possibility of other interpretations of the data we have. However, as far as I'm aware, your hypothesis that the New Testament narrative is somehow derived from Hindi folk tales is not entertained by any serious scholar, regardless of their faith or lack thereof.
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  44. @guest
    "Y-chromosomes (or chromosomes that are transmitted through the male parental line, from father to son)"

    For whom was this written? Can't wait to read this publication's article on gravity (that thing keeping your ass on the ground).

    Not as bad as a parenthetical I saw in a Scientific American article announcing some recent result in number theory:

    primes (whole numbers that cannot be expressed as the products of smaller whole numbers)

    If you needed the parenthetical note, you probably aren’t getting much out of the article.

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    • Agree: Logan
    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    Scientific American (which is now neither scientific nor american) has always been frustrating in that they underestimated their readership. It would be nice if there was a general-interest science magazine pitched at the educated layman. SciAm is not it and never was.
    , @Almost Missouri
    I went to an auto detailing shop today to see what they could do for my car. Was greeted by a highly demonstrative black employee. He said their work includes an "ozone treatment" and asked me if I knew what that was.

    I said I didn't.

    He said, "It's like OZOOOONE, dat treat yo car" along with some hand gestures conveying strength and penetration.

    I said okay now I get it.

    Black parentheticals FTW.

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  45. @conatus
    In invasions, males get slaughtered and women get screwed. It is easier for them to be raped than to fight back, at lest according to genetic results.
    They get raped by the invaders whereas the guys get their heads chopped off.

    The Guanches lived in the Canary Islands undisturbed for a thousand years. They were a Berber descended peoples who inhabited the Canary islands peacefully for a 1000 years until the Spanish discovered them in the 1450s and conquered them.Whose genes made it into the future, men or women?
    Not the guy's!
    Roughly 6 times as many feminist genes as guys.


    "Admixture analysis taking the Iberians, Northwest and West sub-Saharan African populations as parental sources of the actual Canarian population, gave estimates of around 33% for the maternal4 and 6% for the paternal5 Guanche lineages. This strong sexual asymmetry was explained as a result of a strong bias favouring matings between European males and aboriginal females, and to the important aboriginal male mortality during the Conquest."

    from here
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v12/n2/full/5201075a.html

    It appears that a Genoese navigator, Lancelotto Malocello, rediscovered the Canary Islands and the Guanche people as early as 1312 AD. He was looking for the lost explorer Vivaldi Brothers who had sailed in the general direction of the Canaries in 1291, 200 years before the Portuguese, with the intention of circumnavigating Africa en route to India but had disappeared from history.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    ....Vivaldi brothers I can take, but luckily it wasn't the Alessi brothers (Billy and Bobby).
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  46. @TheJester
    We made a quick run through the Aryan invasion of India at the university in the 1960s. The story was that the Aryans brought Sanscript, the Hindi religion, and the caste system with them. Hence, it would be interesting to know when PC changed The Narrative.

    As the story went, the Aryan warriors and priests were at the top of the caste system. The native Indians were naturally at the bottom of the caste system ... the servants of the upper castes for life as they suffered for their personal transgressions through one of many lives buttressed by a belief in reincarnation. If the lower castes suffer lives of privation and ruin, it is because they deserve it. One need not and should not intervene, even to save lives. This is the same India that my wife saw last year on a two-week tour of the country.

    I have had very well educated Indians, upper castes of course, tell me that the caste system and reincarnation (with one depending on the other) are obvious ... like the sun coming up in the morning. They await Westerner Civilization achieving a measure of enlightenment to see the obvious. This is ironic since part of the upper-caste Indian narrative is that the Aryans were also responsible for Western Civilization, including Christianity that is nothing but a compilation of Hindi folktales that made their way from India to the Levant.

    Ideologies of Election, it seems, are almost universal among civilizations to justify caste, class, religious, racial, and cultural domination.

    India strikes me, as it struck Nietzsche, as the single most far right civilization. Of course, he admired that. Me …

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    • Replies: @K
    Steve i know you dont mean it in a derogatory way. But i think you are not accurate. Indians are one of the few religious groups in the world who are more tolerant of other faiths, cultures.
    , @coconut
    Even the far-right hindu nationalists have heavily softened their position on caste. It's too late to make a difference now, though.
    , @Old Palo Altan
    Alfred Rosenberg's favourite civilisation too.

    Me, I prefer Czarist Russia.
    , @Anonymous
    Homogeneity and cultural dominance breed leftism, like in White European countries like Sweden. When your group is not dominant, OTOH, natural selection favors insularity and reactionary ideas - like in British Muslims and in the American Wild West, and in Indian Hindus over the last 1000 years.

    When Hindus held power in India, until 1000 AD, they came up with the most thoroughgoing forms of leftism, which foreshadowed modern progressive movements in many ways.

    One such movement, among many others that developed in that era, was Buddhism, with its emphasis on individualism, atheism, social atomization and nihilism. Even within Hinduism, the Tantra and Goddess cults which dominated during that period can hardly be described as reactionary.

    But then natural selection worked its magic, and the most reactionary, patriarchal, family-forming cults won out.
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  47. Lot says:
    @matt

    And even that says IQ tests [sic]show differences in caste IQ, others don’t.
     
    It says that there are no differences on Raven's Progressive Matrices, which is the the single most highly g-loaded test, which Jensen called a more-or-less pure measure of g. There are differences on other, less g-loaded tests.

    The date of the studies cited doesn't matter, since it isn't as if there have been any revolutionary breakthroughs in giving people IQ tests. If you have later data that contradicts this, feel free to present it. Otherwise you can accept the scientific evidence I've presented, or you can go with your hunches and your "common sense". If you choose the latter option, though, don't pretend like you represent the side of scientific rationality in this argument, and that everyone who disagrees with you is some PC snowflake who can't accept the cold hard truth.

    Raven’s Progressive Matrices, which is the the single most highly g-loaded test

    Then why is the most effected by the Flynn effect? 2.4 standard deviation improvement in Western test-takers compared to ~0.3 for arthritic. If you knew anything about India, you’d be skeptical of any claim to have tested representative samples of the population. What we do know is that India has a massive affirmative action program for the lower castes in its otherwise meritocratic examination-based university admissions. Where it actually counts, the lower castes do far worse on g-loaded tests.

    Otherwise you can accept the scientific evidence I’ve presented

    Two paragraphs in a book is not “scientific evidence.”

    everyone who disagrees with you is some PC snowflake who can’t accept the cold hard truth

    So you are not a PC snowflake then? Humor me and let me know your estimates for genotypical IQ for the following groups: NE Asians, Ashkenazi, white Americans, black Americans, SE Asians, Pakistanis.

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    • Replies: @candid_observer
    You make a good point about the need for Affirmative Action telling the real story here.

    If indeed all castes do effectively equally well on relevant tests, why is there any need of Affirmative Action? And even if it's only one test of cognitive ability on which there's full parity, such as Raven's, why not implement "Affirmative Action" by insisting that that test, or something akin to it, be the test to determine placement in colleges and in jobs?

    This is also one of the arguments against the claim that blacks in England are doing every bit as well as whites academically. Why is it considered such an embarrassing problem for elite universities such as Cambridge and Oxford that the numbers of blacks are so low if, in fact, blacks are doing ever bit as well on the relevant tests?

    Really, the very existence and necessity of Affirmative Action tells the tale. It demonstrates the reality of the situation, despite the heroic attempts at obfuscation (if such attempts can be heroic).

    , @matt

    Then why is [sic the most effected sic by the Flynn effect?
     
    That's an interesting question. Flynn thinks it has to do with the fact that Raven's is a measure of abstract thinking ability, and cultural priorities have shifted over the decades toward valuing abstract over concrete thought. In any case, Raven's gains over time don't change the results of factor analysis applied to Raven's scores at a given time, which Jensen summarizes in The g Factor (p. 38):

    When the Progressive Matrices test is factor analyzed along with a variety of other tests, it is typically among the two or three tests having the highest g loadings, usually around .80. Probably its most distinctive feature is its very low loadings on any factor other than g. Raven’s Progressive Matrices is often used as a “marker” test for Spearman’s g. That is, it is entered into a factor analysis with other tests of unknown factor composition, and if the Matrices has a high loading on the general factor of the matrix of unknown tests, its g loading serves as a standard by which the g loadings of the other tests in the battery can be evaluated. I have yet to see a factor analysis of any diverse collection of tests that includes Raven’s Matrices in which the Raven’s largest loading was found on any factor other than g.
     

    If you knew anything about India, you’d be skeptical of any claim to have tested representative samples of the population.
     
    It's hard to get representative data for the entire Indian population, but it's easier to get data for a particular state or region. I tracked down one of the studies (Chopra 1966), which gathered an N=1359 sample of high school students of four castes in both rural and urban districts of Lucknow.

    In any case, if you'd like some more "real world" evidence, you can take a look at the Human Development Index scores for Indian states. If you look at the maps at Wikipedia, you can see that the southern (more Dravidian) states have higher HDI than the northern (more Indo-European and Middle Eastern) states, with the southernmost state, Kerala, having the highest HDI of all. The same holds for fertility rates, which are of course correlated with IQ.

    What we do know is that India has a massive affirmative action program for the lower castes in its otherwise meritocratic examination-based university admissions.
     
    It has a "reservation" system for "scheduled castes", meaning the lowest castes. If you look at the evidence I cited, the scheduled castes actually do score somewhat lower than the other castes on cognitive tests, although not on non-verbal tests like Raven's. Moreover, they get lower marks in school. This shouldn't be surprising on either an environmentalist or a hereditarian hypothesis (although hereditarianism would predict a caste gap on Raven's). Moreover, hereditarianism would predict, not only a gap between the scheduled and non-scheduled castes, but other caste gaps as well, in favor of the higher castes. The evidence I cited above, on the contrary, shows a decline in IQ and school marks from Brahmins to Vaishya (and not much of a gap between Brahmins and Scheduled Caste).

    Since the scheduled castes do show worst performance at least on verbal tests, that would be enough to translate into worse socioeconomic performance, and thus necessitate affirmative action. What should be surprising to hereditarians is that (A) the scheduled castes do not appear to do worse on non-verbal and highly g-loaded tests like Raven's, and (B) outside of the scheduled castes, the caste gaps go in the opposite of the predicted direction.

    Two paragraphs in a book is not “scientific evidence.”
     
    I don't know why you're so hung up on the number of paragraphs, but in those paragraphs you'll find four citations, one of which is a literature review with many more citations.

    So you are not a PC snowflake then? Humor me and let me know your estimates for genotypical IQ for the following groups: NE Asians, Ashkenazi, white Americans, black Americans, SE Asians, Pakistanis.
     
    The notion of "genotypical IQ" makes no sense, but I can say that at present the balance of evidence suggests that it is more likely than not that, in the same environment, white and black Americans would develop the same phenotypic IQ. Look through my comment history if you want to know why I think that. I don't know enough about the other populations you mention to make an informed judgment.
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  48. @Brother Ma
    Like Iranians of course. Aryans are the original white people /Caucasians . So the stereotype white person is closer to a Greek,Armenian or Iranian.
    Hitler simply blathered on about Aryans needing to be blue eyed and blonde ALL thetime. In fact ,his conception is simply the Nordic subtype . Have you ever seen real Germans? Hitler and his propaganda minister were so dark they could pass for southern Greeks or Italians. Still white /Caucasian but not Of Nordic subtype.

    The Kalash in Pakistan and the green -eyed girl of National Geographic cover fame are all examples of people who are originally Aryan from those original invasions or of the Nordic subtype frpm Alexander,s Macedonian Northern Greek settlers. In Iran today you still find many blue eyed blonde types of this Nordic subtype but to conclude: Iranian.

    Aryan-ness was going to be a big theme in John Huston’s version of Kipling’s The Man Who Would Be King — Daniel Dravot argues that the Kafiristanis can become as civilized as the Europeans they resemble, while Peachy Carnehan doesn’t trust them — but they wound up having to shoot the movie in Morocco with a lot of dusky extras, so they used Michael Caine’s dark Indian wife as Roxana.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    It's interesting to note that the Dravidian states of Southern India outperform Aryan North Indian states by a wide margin on most indicators. I can't state with certainty that I've noticed any intellectual differences between the two populations, but then again, what do I know.
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  49. Lot says:
    @Narrenspeise
    Northern India was a relatively populous place at the time of the Aryan invasion, so it will likely have taken a substantial number of invaders. If these were all or mostly male Aryans, as it appears (not surprisingly), what happened to the women left behind, actually? Did the men that stayed with them take on more than one wife, or at least impregnate more than one each, did the women stay single and childless, did they import men from elsewhere, did they themselves emigrate elsewhere? Were the Aryans pastoralists and could the women take on the tasks of the men who left?

    Such male invasions happend many times in human history. I would like to know more about the history of the women left behind. Might be rather interesting. Any good links anyone?

    I would like to know more about the history of the women left behind.

    Polygamy and death from childbirth.

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  50. @melanf

    Apparently, the ancient Indo-European speaking peoples who invaded India in those distant far-off days were, originally at least, closer genetic relations of such living populations as modern Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Lithuanians etc than to modern Indians.
     
    Surviving on the border of Europe a relic of the ancient "Aryans" - the Ossetians
    http://www.balto-slavica.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=16468

    The c. 2003 King Arthur movie, the one with Clive Owen, follows the theory that King Arthur was an Ossetian who enlisted at an early age in the Roman legions and was assigned to Britain, and then stayed on to help the Britons fight the invading Anglo-Saxons when the legions were called home in 410 AD.

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    • Replies: @Jake
    Didn't that nonsense come from C. Scott Littleton or one of his students? Littleton's circle seemed obsessed with claiming that eastern Indo-European groups were central to most of Western European cultural development.

    I recall reading many years ago a short write up of a conference at which one of Littleton's acolytes tried to argue that it was foolish to even care that the Celtic and Latinate language were actually one, because whatever was most interesting in either surely was Indo-Iranean in origin.

    The Occam's Razor on Arthur: a Romanized British Celt with military training, and probably at least mid-level status, who stayed when the legions withdrew because that is where his roots were.
    , @Patrick Harris
    In the movie, Arthur was a Romano-Briton but his knights were Sarmatians, a Iranic-speaking people like the Ossetians. I think the Ossetians are generally held to be descended from the Alans. But all those steppe nomads kind of run together.
    , @Numinous
    You must have seen a different movie from the one I saw. What I recall is Arthur being the son of a Roman soldier and a British mother, with the ethnicity of the soldier never mentioned anywhere. Where did you get this "Ossetian" reference?
    , @Jim
    The Ossetians are believed to be descended from the Alans. The Alans were Aryan but some became associated with the East German Vandals and took part as confederates with the Vandals in the barbarian invasions of the Western Roman Empire. With the Vandals they founded a powerful and wealthy kingdom in North Africa in the fifth century which was later conquered by the Byzantines.

    So an Alans warrior ending up in Britain as some sort of Celtic chieftain although not likely is not totally impossible. The Vandals together with their Alans confederates crossed the Rhein I believe around 428.

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  51. Flip says:
    @neutral
    The real question now, that I am sure is on a lot of minds, is what exactly did these Aryans look like ? Did they look like something that would have satisfied Third Reich idealists or would they have looked more like people look like in Iran ?

    I think the ANI/ASI article a few years ago tied the Aryans to Georgians, and there is the Indo-Iranian subset of the Indo-European languages, suggesting a connection there.

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    • Replies: @Jake
    Georgian is not an Indo-European language. It is main language of the very small Kartvelian tree.
    , @Patrick Harris
    That's interesting. Isn't Georgian a language isolate?
    , @Opinionator
    Makes sense that they would have been a "low-trust" White subgroup.
    , @Anonymous

    I think the ANI/ASI article a few years ago tied the Aryans to Georgians
     
    No way. Georgian language is not even Indo-European.
    , @Jim
    Georgian is not an Indo-European language.
    , @man
    large component of Yamna(proto indo europeans) was from west caucasian hunter gathering people very closely related to Georgians.
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  52. Jake says:
    @kihowi
    At this point wouldn't it just save time to discard every idea about race formed in the last century and pick up where we left off around 1910? The process of arriving at overwhelming evidence that they were right all along is going to take ages and the Chinese don't have that kind of baggage.

    Around 1910, we had scores of nut jobs who were preaching northern European nonsense, save that Slavs and Celts were always placed among the better bottom of their white hierarchy. That means they were German kooks vomiting the same German garbage.

    To get it right, you must go back to seeing things as they were, including when all Germanic tribes were little more than perpetual pirates and produced 0 culture worth saving.

    Those Germans after embracing the basics of Hellenistic civilization and orthodox Catholic Christianity did produce worthwhile culture.

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    • Replies: @TWS
    The Nordic Bronze Age. But other than that, yeah nothing cultural.
    , @Opinionator
    On the contrary, the description of Germans by Tacitus was rather flattering.
    , @Freya
    Germanic tribes were not pirates. Where did you get this nonsense from? Read Tacitus' "Germania" to learn how they were actually more civilized than Romans in their moral conduct. Their social and spiritual life was organised based on thoroughly Germanic values, which persist to this day.
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  53. Flip says:
    @kihowi
    At this point wouldn't it just save time to discard every idea about race formed in the last century and pick up where we left off around 1910? The process of arriving at overwhelming evidence that they were right all along is going to take ages and the Chinese don't have that kind of baggage.

    The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica has lots of interesting articles along those lines.

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    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @kihowi
    Way ahead of you. Always read the 1911 when it comes to race. If you're interested in, say, African tribes, stay away from Wikipedia. Those articles are there to prevent you from learning anything.

    Britannica is clear and to the point. It also uses the old words like Hottentot, Bushmen and Pygmy instead of the new words that are there to make the subject too confusing to think about.

    If you're interested in anything at all, get a pre-1960s book and be shocked at how informative books can be. It's like the authors really want teach you something.

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  54. Jake says:
    @Steve Sailer
    The c. 2003 King Arthur movie, the one with Clive Owen, follows the theory that King Arthur was an Ossetian who enlisted at an early age in the Roman legions and was assigned to Britain, and then stayed on to help the Britons fight the invading Anglo-Saxons when the legions were called home in 410 AD.

    Didn’t that nonsense come from C. Scott Littleton or one of his students? Littleton’s circle seemed obsessed with claiming that eastern Indo-European groups were central to most of Western European cultural development.

    I recall reading many years ago a short write up of a conference at which one of Littleton’s acolytes tried to argue that it was foolish to even care that the Celtic and Latinate language were actually one, because whatever was most interesting in either surely was Indo-Iranean in origin.

    The Occam’s Razor on Arthur: a Romanized British Celt with military training, and probably at least mid-level status, who stayed when the legions withdrew because that is where his roots were.

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    • Replies: @segundo
    There were Sarmatian cavalry units stationed in Britain. There are also a couple of interesting parallels between what we can reconstruct from folklore in the Caucasus and the Arthurian mythos. That said, the Littleton theory is just crap and the movie was arguably worse. Here's a good demolition of the theory:

    https://aelarsen.wordpress.com/2015/08/03/king-arthur-the-sarmatian-theory/
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  55. Jake says:
    @Flip
    I think the ANI/ASI article a few years ago tied the Aryans to Georgians, and there is the Indo-Iranian subset of the Indo-European languages, suggesting a connection there.

    Georgian is not an Indo-European language. It is main language of the very small Kartvelian tree.

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  56. @Hindoo
    I don't understand why abject Euro-Whites suffer from this OCD about "Aryans".

    Instead of such useless endeavours such as finding correlation between penis size and IQ, Euro-Whites would do better to find a cure for Wewuzkangzosis pathologicalis.

    At least success in the latter would mean a few less world wars.

    Speaking of IQ, the Proto-Indo-Europeans (and their bronze age progeny) were unmitigated savages who didn't have the IQ to build any civilization anywhere.

    "Aryans" became Kangz because of the diligence of Dravidians of the Indus Valley.
    Persians became Kangz because of the diligence of Elamites.
    Romans became Kangz because of the diligence of Etruscans.
    Greeks became Kangz because of the diligence of Minoans.

    Wherever Indo-Euros couldn't find a civilizations to parasitise, they remained in their barbaric state of existence, just like the Celts and Teutons and Slavs and Tocharians.

    They were the ultimate welfare-parasites of their time. Much like Turks in Germany today.

    But hey, Turkics were even better than "Aryan" Indo-Euros in the invasion business. Look at what the Oghuz Turkmens did to Anatolia. This is the same thing they'll do to Germany.

    Perhaps then, in a not so distant future, Euro-Whites would masturbate thinking of their connection to Genghiz and Hulagu, just as the other commenters are masturbating now to "Aryans".

    In fact, Hungarians have already started fapping themselves.

    Seems that Mitra and Varuna are not without a sense of irony.

    You nailed it.
    And it’s funny it didn’t take long to dice up somebodies widdle feewings.

    Where Indo-Europeans show up and find an advanced culture, they advanced, and typically their memory is found millenia later claiming the advanced culture as their own, i.e.: Anatolia, Greece, Italy, India. Where Indo-Europeans failed to find an advanced culture, they managed to remain in states of abject primitism for, millenia, i.e.: Celts, Goths, Baltics, etc. The Goths in particular seemed to have a real time of it coming around, but when they did they really did, so give them credit.

    Speaking more largely: I really appreciate this article. From time to time I’m confronted with Indian nationalism and – sigh – all those things they say about nationalism.

    I don’t know if it’s an artifact of the Indian educational system or a quality of Indian nationalism, but there seems to be a strong current in Indian nationalism of revulsion to the earliest forms of AIT (Aryan Invasion Theory) which, unlike the study of Indo-European anthropology, seems stuck on 1910 ( kitomi ) … well, the anthropology has come a long way since then so it’s funny (really distressing) to see Indian nationalism mythologizing tending to counter one semi-racist narrative with its own.

    And it’s own, FWIW, is “OIT”, or “Out of India”, where the Indo-Europeans, ahem, or Aryans, started in India and spread outwards. OIT has the interesting quality of retaining all the objectionable superiority narratives of the 19th century version of AIT, only stated in reverse: the Indian Aryans went about and conquered hin and yonder.

    Our particular distribution of, as Steve Sailer so eloquently states it: “intersectional pokemon points” seems to permit persons of Indian descent the use of the term “Aryan” while it is largely denied all others. The curiosity of Indian Nationalism as far as AIT is concerned is that it does seem to put into focus that there just does seem to be something – peculiar – about people who want to use the word. In other words: AIT really has been updated to AMT (Aryan Migration Theory) – it needn’t be and over many millenia, probably wasn’t an “invasion” – though surely there were skirmishes from time to time.

    Don’t tell that to OIT. There’s no OMT in Indian Nationalism. Always OIT. “We was conquerors!” They are keeping the old version, just turning it on its head.

    Everyone wants to be the conqueror, or descended therefrom. That is the skeleton key of mass anthropological confusion. Look up the Perioeci and consider where they came from. The Indo-Europeans trot in – the upper class civilized are displaced. Someone has to keep the currency flowing and the aqueducts maintained and it falls on some poor soul to educate the spawn of these barbarian migrants – and 8 generations later the “conquerors” are found literate and running off to Crete to learn the old ways. The pattern repeats itself. Don’t be so sure all the pride descends from the back of a horse or the business end of the composite bow.

    I mention all this to bring up a kind of stumbling block in everyone’s form of the story – which is interesting because stumbling blocks like these tend to suggest that something very basic is wrong, or missing – in every possible account so far.

    One thing the OIT guys have going for them is the Vedas. The Vedas are ancient, and written in Sanskrit. This is difficult to square with the Indo-Europeans showing up on the scene 3000 – 4000 YBP. That’s how our Indian Nationalists come to feel so confident that it couldn’t possibly be those non-Indo-European / non-Sanskrit speaking Dravidians on the Indus River who’d been there since 6000-9000 YBP who are the source of Vedic culture.

    So: score one for OIT.

    But – on the other hand – the problem for our Indian nationalist friends becomes primitivization. Notwithstanding how Sanskrit made it to India, the Mycenaeans and Dorians entered Greece as primitives, the Latins entered Italy as primitives. Illiterate, uncultured primitives (albeit with horse, axle, cart, chariot and composite bow). The Celts entered northern Europe and the Baltics kind of hung out north of the Black Sea and pretty much just stayed primitive for a long, long time.

    So somehow, if OIT is to be believed, those autochthonous Aryan Indians from the Indus River civilization of 6000-9000 YBP somehow kept pumping out of India, and somewhere between northwestern Pakistan and the Caspian Sea, just kept turning from sophisticates into barbarians so that the process was almost always complete by the time they got to the Urals and then they needed native Anatolians, Minoans, faster-to-the-program Mycenaeans or Etruscans to get them caught back up again.

    It’s a puzzle. Either way really, it’s a puzzle. Most of the rest of Indo-European anthropology, AMT and all, is parsimonious, but somehow either the Aryans turned the Vedas into their own, or the Vedics turned backward every time they left the luminous Indus.

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    • Replies: @Jim
    The reconstructed vocabulary for Proto-Indo-European indicates that they lived in a temperate zone with strong winters and far inland from the sea. It fits the Pontic pretty well but India not at all.

    The Myceneans were Indo-European speaking an archaic form of Greek.
    , @Logan
    "One thing the OIT guys have going for them is the Vedas. The Vedas are ancient, and written in Sanskrit. This is difficult to square with the Indo-Europeans showing up on the scene 3000 – 4000 YBP."

    From what I've read, the Vedas date from about 1700 BC to about 500 BC. Not sure why this is hard to square with the Aryan Invasion Theory.

    I'm no expert, but my understanding is that the Vedas have a LOT in common with old Persian and such myths and texts. Also with the Mittani in what is now northern Iraq, who flourished 1500 to 1300 BC.
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  57. @Anonymous
    Apparently, the ancient Indo-European speaking peoples who invaded India in those distant far-off days were, originally at least, closer genetic relations of such living populations as modern Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Lithuanians etc than to modern Indians.
    Even living Britons are closer relations to them than modern Indians are.

    And they also invaded Greece*

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  58. Jake says:
    @AaronB
    I never understood why linguistic similarities allowed us to conclude similarity of race. All it seems to suggest is proximity, interaction, and influence. Lot of different races in the same area spoke the same or similar languages.

    Its like future archeologists, after the Catastrophe, will conclude that people in Hong Kong and England were part of some great original race.

    Maybe I'm missing something. Can someone explain why it isn't a leap to posit an Indo-Aryan race based on linguistic similarity?

    Language spoken and nothing else may mean next to nothing in terms of population movements. But the Indian subcontinent issue starts with geography: it is more than imposing. Languages aren’t shared across those geographic barriers without some type of conquering and at least enough new folks to maintain the cultural control until it takes and trickles down.

    It would be almost impossible for Sanskrit to maintained as a priestly/intellectual language without it being planted by a ‘master class’ of conquerers whose descendants saw it as a matter honoring their ancestors to preserve it. As the conquered came to be assimilated to the conquering culture, it would become theirs as well.

    It is a leap to think it could have happened in India without a conquering.

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  59. YOU MUST SUBMIT!

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  60. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Steve Sailer
    It appears that a Genoese navigator, Lancelotto Malocello, rediscovered the Canary Islands and the Guanche people as early as 1312 AD. He was looking for the lost explorer Vivaldi Brothers who had sailed in the general direction of the Canaries in 1291, 200 years before the Portuguese, with the intention of circumnavigating Africa en route to India but had disappeared from history.

    ….Vivaldi brothers I can take, but luckily it wasn’t the Alessi brothers (Billy and Bobby).

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  61. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Brother Ma
    Like Iranians of course. Aryans are the original white people /Caucasians . So the stereotype white person is closer to a Greek,Armenian or Iranian.
    Hitler simply blathered on about Aryans needing to be blue eyed and blonde ALL thetime. In fact ,his conception is simply the Nordic subtype . Have you ever seen real Germans? Hitler and his propaganda minister were so dark they could pass for southern Greeks or Italians. Still white /Caucasian but not Of Nordic subtype.

    The Kalash in Pakistan and the green -eyed girl of National Geographic cover fame are all examples of people who are originally Aryan from those original invasions or of the Nordic subtype frpm Alexander,s Macedonian Northern Greek settlers. In Iran today you still find many blue eyed blonde types of this Nordic subtype but to conclude: Iranian.

    The DNA of subjects taken from the Sintashta and Androvono archaeological horizions – the earliest known sites for peoples identified as ‘Iranians’ resemble Europeans more than the present-day inhabitants of Iran.

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  62. Oh yeah? Well, the Indus Valley civilisation came to an end because it had given women the right to vote and its elites wanted cheap labor — which then took the form of Aryan rapefugees! So much for your Aryan Superiority Complex!

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  63. At least there are some good fighting Indians in our time. Don’t know about the Aryan bit, though.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._F._R._Jacob

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  64. @Johann Ricke

    The reason for the difference in mtDNA and Y-DNA data is obvious in hindsight: there was strong sex bias in Bronze Age migrations. In other words, those who migrated were predominantly male and, therefore, those gene flows do not really show up in the mtDNA data.
     
    Warriors do tend to be male.

    Look at the boats sinking themselves 90 miles off the coast of Africa: almost all men. That is an invasion force and stupid europeans are letting it happen.

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  65. Davidski says: • Website
    @melanf

    Apparently, the ancient Indo-European speaking peoples who invaded India in those distant far-off days were, originally at least, closer genetic relations of such living populations as modern Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Lithuanians etc than to modern Indians.
     
    Surviving on the border of Europe a relic of the ancient "Aryans" - the Ossetians
    http://www.balto-slavica.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=16468

    Nope, present-day Ossetians are a fairly typical Caucasian population and too southern genetically. Plus they don’t have the right Y-chromosomes.

    You need something like the ancient Yamnaya people of the southern Russian steppes with a lot of R1a-Z93.

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  66. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Johann Ricke

    The reason for the difference in mtDNA and Y-DNA data is obvious in hindsight: there was strong sex bias in Bronze Age migrations. In other words, those who migrated were predominantly male and, therefore, those gene flows do not really show up in the mtDNA data.
     
    Warriors do tend to be male.

    Exactly. This is so obvious only liberals can screw it up. Successful major invasions tend to lead to a major upset in Y chromosome lineage, not so much mtDNA. Between the first wave of conquerors taking their fill of the local girls, and the second and subsequent invader folk generations living the high life and getting their fill of women either by wealth or status or both, its the male invader genes that tend to be spread through a conquered population.

    Despite mighty wonder woman type Amazon women in movies being lauded as being great and neglected because grrl power, their isn’t a whole lot of historical precedence for chick conquests.

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  67. DB Cooper says:
    @Brother Ma
    Like Iranians of course. Aryans are the original white people /Caucasians . So the stereotype white person is closer to a Greek,Armenian or Iranian.
    Hitler simply blathered on about Aryans needing to be blue eyed and blonde ALL thetime. In fact ,his conception is simply the Nordic subtype . Have you ever seen real Germans? Hitler and his propaganda minister were so dark they could pass for southern Greeks or Italians. Still white /Caucasian but not Of Nordic subtype.

    The Kalash in Pakistan and the green -eyed girl of National Geographic cover fame are all examples of people who are originally Aryan from those original invasions or of the Nordic subtype frpm Alexander,s Macedonian Northern Greek settlers. In Iran today you still find many blue eyed blonde types of this Nordic subtype but to conclude: Iranian.

    I had a classmate years ago and he is from Iran and he has the bluest eye I have ever seen in a real life person.

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  68. segundo says:
    @Jake
    Didn't that nonsense come from C. Scott Littleton or one of his students? Littleton's circle seemed obsessed with claiming that eastern Indo-European groups were central to most of Western European cultural development.

    I recall reading many years ago a short write up of a conference at which one of Littleton's acolytes tried to argue that it was foolish to even care that the Celtic and Latinate language were actually one, because whatever was most interesting in either surely was Indo-Iranean in origin.

    The Occam's Razor on Arthur: a Romanized British Celt with military training, and probably at least mid-level status, who stayed when the legions withdrew because that is where his roots were.

    There were Sarmatian cavalry units stationed in Britain. There are also a couple of interesting parallels between what we can reconstruct from folklore in the Caucasus and the Arthurian mythos. That said, the Littleton theory is just crap and the movie was arguably worse. Here’s a good demolition of the theory:

    https://aelarsen.wordpress.com/2015/08/03/king-arthur-the-sarmatian-theory/

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  69. kihowi says:
    @Flip
    The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica has lots of interesting articles along those lines.

    Way ahead of you. Always read the 1911 when it comes to race. If you’re interested in, say, African tribes, stay away from Wikipedia. Those articles are there to prevent you from learning anything.

    Britannica is clear and to the point. It also uses the old words like Hottentot, Bushmen and Pygmy instead of the new words that are there to make the subject too confusing to think about.

    If you’re interested in anything at all, get a pre-1960s book and be shocked at how informative books can be. It’s like the authors really want teach you something.

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    • Replies: @BB753
    Even better, read Baker's Race. There's an electronic version that goes for a couple of bucks on Kindle.
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  70. Hindoo says:
    @Anonymous
    Strangely enough, recent genetic research suggests that the founding stock 'Turk' population were actually a hybrid between classic Mongolid stock and Euro-related steppic peoples on the paternal side.

    Quite encouraging, my otherwise irrelevant friend.

    This clearly explains why an increasing number of male denizens of Wewuzkangzistan have started apostatising from their ethnomythological religion.

    Hence, the need for Asian wives, to infuse the Euro-White bloodlines with Orientally despotic and Asiatically cruel blood, to finally transform the self-admitted betas into alphas.

    Surely this reconstructed basal Turk would kick ass of all the Jooz, Mooz and Coonz (which per se is neither good nor bad).

    But it certainly won’t be the “Aryan” of the Rigveda masturbators’ imagination.

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  71. @Steve Sailer
    The c. 2003 King Arthur movie, the one with Clive Owen, follows the theory that King Arthur was an Ossetian who enlisted at an early age in the Roman legions and was assigned to Britain, and then stayed on to help the Britons fight the invading Anglo-Saxons when the legions were called home in 410 AD.

    In the movie, Arthur was a Romano-Briton but his knights were Sarmatians, a Iranic-speaking people like the Ossetians. I think the Ossetians are generally held to be descended from the Alans. But all those steppe nomads kind of run together.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    In the Clive Owen "King Arthur," where does the little boy Arthur in the opening scene get taken away from by Roman recruiters: the Eurasian steppe or northern Britain? I guessed the first but I could be wrong.
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  72. dearieme says:

    Is it known, or merely assumed, that the Indus civilisation was Dravidian?

    WKPD: The Harappan language is not directly attested and its affiliation is uncertain since the Indus script is still undeciphered.

    Hmph: nobody knows.

    WKPD: A relationship with the Dravidian or Elamo-Dravidian language family is favoured by a section of scholars.

    Hmph: some people are happy to guess.

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  73. @Flip
    I think the ANI/ASI article a few years ago tied the Aryans to Georgians, and there is the Indo-Iranian subset of the Indo-European languages, suggesting a connection there.

    That’s interesting. Isn’t Georgian a language isolate?

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    • Replies: @Jim
    Georgian is the most common language in a small family of about half-a-dozen languages spoken in the Caucasus called Kartvelian. They have no clear relationship to any other linguistic family. In particular they haven't the faintest resemblance to any Indo-European language.
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  74. Pat Boyle says:
    @Johann Ricke

    The reason for the difference in mtDNA and Y-DNA data is obvious in hindsight: there was strong sex bias in Bronze Age migrations. In other words, those who migrated were predominantly male and, therefore, those gene flows do not really show up in the mtDNA data.
     
    Warriors do tend to be male.

    Anthropology seems to be retreating from ‘niceness’. About thirty years ago we deciphered Mayan artifacts and learned a bit about what they thought of themselves. It was shocking. Mainstream academic anthropology had convinced everyone that the Mayan were peaceable philosopher-priests who spent most of their time contemplating nature and the beauty of the forest.

    Complete nonsense. Similarly there has been a strong preference for imagining almost all population changes as not invasions but rather the spread of modernizing innovations by cooperative peaceable farmers. But again new evidence makes it appear that ancient man was violent and aggressive just as we had formerly suspected.

    Less and less about early life on this planet appears to have been truly ‘nice’.

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    • Agree: Travis
    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    No one denies the Maya were violent, but you can't discredit their discoveries.
    , @whoever
    It was Raymond Dart who said long ago, as recorded in C.K. Brain's The Hunters or the Hunted? that "it was the ape-man's instinct for violence, and his successful development of lethal weapons, that gave him his dominance in the animal world from the very beginning. Those instincts are with us today."
    , @dearieme
    Any Briton who's old enough (or Irishman too, presumably) will remember being taught that our ancestors had been headhunters. So he should have been inoculated against the nicey-nicey school.

    Were the anthropologists fools or knaves? Both, I dare say.
    , @Buzz Mohawk
    In recent years, diggers have found evidence of cannibalism at the Anasazi ruins in the Four Corners region.

    Many of us have enjoyed exploring the remarkable cliff dwellings, which were abandoned almost a thousand years ago. The story of how and why people there ate each other has yet to be told.

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  75. K says:

    All modern human beings originated in africa. There is no dispute in this.

    Among them one set of modern humans went to india. Now this study is saying another set went north became pale and then went down to india?

    Okay…..

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    • Replies: @johno
    All modern human beings originated in africa. There is no dispute in this.


    Actually, funny you mention that...

    https://phys.org/news/2017-05-humans-evolve-europe-africa-dont.html#nRlv

    https://phys.org/news/2017-05-scientists-million-year-old-pre-human-balkans.html#nRlv
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  76. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Fascinating stuff. Thanks for this, Steve.

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  77. Numinous says:
    @Anonymous
    Apparently, the ancient Indo-European speaking peoples who invaded India in those distant far-off days were, originally at least, closer genetic relations of such living populations as modern Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Lithuanians etc than to modern Indians.
    Even living Britons are closer relations to them than modern Indians are.

    Apparently, the ancient Indo-European speaking peoples who invaded India in those distant far-off days were, originally at least, closer genetic relations of such living populations as modern Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Lithuanians etc than to modern Indians.
    Even living Britons are closer relations to them than modern Indians are.

    This is an idiotic formulation (mainly because it’s inaccurate, and partly because it’s inspired by your white supremacist impulses.) It’s also the kind of formulation that will rile Indians and keep preventing them from accepting this theory.

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  78. Oi, boy …

    bored identity could Godwinize this topic all day along:

    “Ya’ll Do Know who also was proponent of the idea that ancient swastika-luvin’ Aryans were syncopated-sanskrtitizing conquerors of Euro-DNAsian geopolitical realm?”

    In conclusion:

    Bret Stephens’ haploid cesspool is on the Wrong Side of Science.

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  79. @Hindoo
    I don't understand why abject Euro-Whites suffer from this OCD about "Aryans".

    Instead of such useless endeavours such as finding correlation between penis size and IQ, Euro-Whites would do better to find a cure for Wewuzkangzosis pathologicalis.

    At least success in the latter would mean a few less world wars.

    Speaking of IQ, the Proto-Indo-Europeans (and their bronze age progeny) were unmitigated savages who didn't have the IQ to build any civilization anywhere.

    "Aryans" became Kangz because of the diligence of Dravidians of the Indus Valley.
    Persians became Kangz because of the diligence of Elamites.
    Romans became Kangz because of the diligence of Etruscans.
    Greeks became Kangz because of the diligence of Minoans.

    Wherever Indo-Euros couldn't find a civilizations to parasitise, they remained in their barbaric state of existence, just like the Celts and Teutons and Slavs and Tocharians.

    They were the ultimate welfare-parasites of their time. Much like Turks in Germany today.

    But hey, Turkics were even better than "Aryan" Indo-Euros in the invasion business. Look at what the Oghuz Turkmens did to Anatolia. This is the same thing they'll do to Germany.

    Perhaps then, in a not so distant future, Euro-Whites would masturbate thinking of their connection to Genghiz and Hulagu, just as the other commenters are masturbating now to "Aryans".

    In fact, Hungarians have already started fapping themselves.

    Seems that Mitra and Varuna are not without a sense of irony.

    Romans were Etruscans for all practical purposes. The fighting man is valorized for a good reason, as it is closely tied to what was needed to survive and expand in an agricultural society; and Europeans indeed extended basic respect to Muslim invaders when they had to fight for their gains even as far as back the Song of Roland.

    Its one thing to respect an enemy, its another thing to welcome invasion without resistance.

    Anyway, grand pacifism is ridiculous. Its what has led to the modern world.

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    • Replies: @Daniel H
    >>Romans were Etruscans for all practical purposes.

    Where on earth do you get that idea? From my limited reading of Roman History, the Romans were quite aware that the Etruscans were a quite different, bizzare people. Yes, there is the curious fact that for generations Etruscan kings did rule Romans, but Etruscans did not rule Romans. Strange. Anyway, the Romans got fed up with Etruscans and kings in general and sent them both packing.

    Etruscans may have been a pre-Indo European people. Who knows?
    , @Jim
    Etruscan is not an Indo-European language.
    , @Hindoo
    I simply cannot fathom why pathetic Sin0-Yellows MUST keep on blabbering about subjects they have no clue about and make complete fools of themselves in public.

    Instead on making asinine comments like "Etruscans and Romans be dah same sheeat dawg, gnomesayin'?", albeit in a more legible register of English, Sino-Yellows would do better to lynch their traditional witch-doctors who insist that cannibalising aborted female fetuses cures acne, or gulping down ground tiger bone cures impotence, or eating boiled-alive-cat soup cures cold.

    At least success in the latter would make even more nubile Sino-Yellow females available for impregnation by Euro-White men, which would lead to the reconstruction of the basal Turk (as I mentioned earlier), who would finally put an end to grand pacifism and the modern world and needless to mention, kick asses of Jooz, Mooz, Coonz AND Gookz.

    This Indo-Euro stuff is strictly family talk between Caucasoids; and Mongoloids are simply not welcome.

    Now go back and open your cheap convenience store in Guangzhou.

    End Chink occupation! Free Vancouver!

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  80. K says:
    @Steve Sailer
    India strikes me, as it struck Nietzsche, as the single most far right civilization. Of course, he admired that. Me ...

    Steve i know you dont mean it in a derogatory way. But i think you are not accurate. Indians are one of the few religious groups in the world who are more tolerant of other faiths, cultures.

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    • Replies: @FX Enderby
    Oh, brother. I think Steve (and Friedrich before him) was referring to pre-colonial Indian civilization (caste system etc.)
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  81. TWS says:
    @Jake
    Around 1910, we had scores of nut jobs who were preaching northern European nonsense, save that Slavs and Celts were always placed among the better bottom of their white hierarchy. That means they were German kooks vomiting the same German garbage.

    To get it right, you must go back to seeing things as they were, including when all Germanic tribes were little more than perpetual pirates and produced 0 culture worth saving.

    Those Germans after embracing the basics of Hellenistic civilization and orthodox Catholic Christianity did produce worthwhile culture.

    The Nordic Bronze Age. But other than that, yeah nothing cultural.

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  82. Numinous says:
    @Johann Ricke

    Contrary to what 19th and 20th century figures like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hitler, Rushton, and Lynn expected, there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence
     
    This isn't entirely surprising, given that the entire point of caste was to entrench the invading Aryans among the elites. The lack of meritocracy (i.e. sorting by ability) meant that smart Dravidians in lower castes had no route to advancement, and a compelling reason to embrace non-Hindu religions that offered them this route. If not for the East India Company, India might well be a Muslim country today.

    You have no idea what you are talking about. First, “Dravidian” is not synonymous with “low caste”. Second, Dravidians and Aryans (northerners really) have no history of conflict ever (the 20th century separatist movements were inspired by 19th century theories, and have nothing to do with historical memory); they all considered themselves part of one Vedic civilization. Third, Dravidians have done rather well for themselves historically speaking. Well into the Islamic era, southern kingdoms and dynasties were not just up and standing, they were themselves colonizing lands in SE Asia (e.g., the Cholas.)

    As for the East India Company, it intruded just at the point when Hindus were getting the upper hand. The Marathas were the most powerful force in India throughout the 18th century, and the Mughal emperor had become their virtual puppet. The British were just a band of mercantile brigands who saw their opportunity with a lot of “infighting” in the subcontinent, made some good bets about who to ally with and who to oppose, and spread their rule like cancer throughout the country.

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    • Replies: @Shikoku Princess
    Didn't the British build a significant amount of infrastructure there?
    Also they gave the Indians their language so they could have a neutral language to unite all of them.
    Was there even an "India" at any point in history before the British, as in a unified state? The Gupta didn't conquer all of present day India nor did the Maurya, if I'm correct (I may not be).

    I dont understand the resentment I'm seeing. Many conquered India throughout history. You can't be mad just because of the most recent. If the Americans and British in Burma hadn't had a great general to lead them, we would have conquered a good bit of India.

    It seems like India's strengths, its spirituality, also are its weakness, which is pacifism.
    But still, you should be happy to be one of the worked greatest civilizations. Those ancient Aryans are your ancestors, not someone else's, right?
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  83. Numinous says:
    @Steve Sailer
    The c. 2003 King Arthur movie, the one with Clive Owen, follows the theory that King Arthur was an Ossetian who enlisted at an early age in the Roman legions and was assigned to Britain, and then stayed on to help the Britons fight the invading Anglo-Saxons when the legions were called home in 410 AD.

    You must have seen a different movie from the one I saw. What I recall is Arthur being the son of a Roman soldier and a British mother, with the ethnicity of the soldier never mentioned anywhere. Where did you get this “Ossetian” reference?

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  84. K says:
    @Sunbeam
    "Aryans” became Kangz because of the diligence of Dravidians of the Indus Valley."

    You are making a funny, but while I am unclear on some of your examples, I'd like to hear any input from anyone (I've seen some Indian posters for example on here) who knows much about the Dravidians.

    From stray things I've read the Dravidians had advanced agriculture for the era, had massive cities for the era, and had Roman level plumbing (1000+ years before Rome?).

    Whereas concerning the Aryans... somewhere I read a description of them with their key features listed:

    1) They liked horses.
    2) They really liked horses.
    3) They drank milk
    4) They really liked to fight.
    5) They really, really liked to fight.
    6) They didn't like to work
    7) They really liked [insert yourself here] making you do their work for them.

    and this is more speculative,

    8) They were kinda short guys, maybe even kind of swarthy, with black hair. Not sure where that one came from, some kind of thing mocking Nazis and blondicism I guess. You know Hitler himself was actually the phenotype Aryan, not the guy on the posters. Maybe, maybe not.
    9) Oh yeah, and that whole language thing.

    Anyway, my understanding is from this site that India has some really high IQ people in the upper castes (descended from Aryans?), and a gigantic mass of the lower IQ peoples that are the grist of this site.

    But at the time of this invasion, it sure seems to me that it was one of those cookie cutter horse nomad invasions of a more advanced culture we've seen time and again in history.

    Any Indians or knowledgeable people on the subject got any input on this?

    Assuming even the aryan invasion is true which i dont believe is true simply because of the saraswati question, among other reasons. The rig veda (atleast the earliest part of it) is centered around worshiping the saraswati river, which dried up by 1900 B.C….before the aryans came.

    Or just because they ‘invaded’ doesnt mean they were more ‘advanced’. Were mongols more ‘advanced’ than the people they invaded? Were the huns?

    Also many backward castes in india are ‘less’ dark-skinned than the arya-vysya caste that is an upper caste.

    The aryan ‘invasion’ theory is a joke.

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  85. Numinous says:
    @TheJester
    We made a quick run through the Aryan invasion of India at the university in the 1960s. The story was that the Aryans brought Sanscript, the Hindi religion, and the caste system with them. Hence, it would be interesting to know when PC changed The Narrative.

    As the story went, the Aryan warriors and priests were at the top of the caste system. The native Indians were naturally at the bottom of the caste system ... the servants of the upper castes for life as they suffered for their personal transgressions through one of many lives buttressed by a belief in reincarnation. If the lower castes suffer lives of privation and ruin, it is because they deserve it. One need not and should not intervene, even to save lives. This is the same India that my wife saw last year on a two-week tour of the country.

    I have had very well educated Indians, upper castes of course, tell me that the caste system and reincarnation (with one depending on the other) are obvious ... like the sun coming up in the morning. They await Westerner Civilization achieving a measure of enlightenment to see the obvious. This is ironic since part of the upper-caste Indian narrative is that the Aryans were also responsible for Western Civilization, including Christianity that is nothing but a compilation of Hindi folktales that made their way from India to the Levant.

    Ideologies of Election, it seems, are almost universal among civilizations to justify caste, class, religious, racial, and cultural domination.

    This is the same India that my wife saw last year on a two-week tour of the country.

    It’s possible (even inevitable) that a foreigner will see a lot of poverty in a two-week tour of India. Everything else is projection though. Just because someone is poor doesn’t mean they are lower caste. Just because there are a lot of poor people doesn’t mean that society (or its elites) are keeping them in that condition wilfully; it just means that the country is so damn poor that it cannot afford to relieve the condition of its masses.

    Your (or your wife’s) impressions sound exactly like David Duke’s impressions of India during his visit. Exactly as superficial, exactly as blinkered, exactly as wrong.

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    What is wrong about them? You don't say.
    , @FX Enderby
    Butthurt much? Read the comment again. If you are unable to remain calm, kindly go elsewhere on the web to cry "racist!" I can recommend thousands of websites where you would feel more comfortable...
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  86. D. K. says:

    ***

    “. . . mtDNA (or matrilineal DNA, transmitted only from mother to daughter) . . . .”

    ***

    Nonsense! The term “mtDNA” stands for “mitochondrial DNA” rather than “matrilineal DNA”– and, more importantly, it is passed down from a mother to ALL of her children, regardless of their sex, not just to her daughters. Most of the mtDNA in our sperm is not successfully past on to our offspring, however, which is why most of us have mtDNA that is identical to our respective mothers’ own mtDNA. That is why maternal lines can be traced using mtDNA; it is not because we males carry no mtDNA.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA

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  87. really not surprising – a horse riding people with no word for elephant….
    Most of the purity laws for upper castes are obviously one ethnic group trying to keep ‘clean’ .
    many bollywood stars could pass for Greek or Italian

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    • Replies: @anonymous coward

    really not surprising – a horse riding people with no word for elephant….
     
    The Slavic languages have a native (and ancient) word for 'elephant', of unknown etymology. Make of that what you will.
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  88. coconut says:
    @Steve Sailer
    India strikes me, as it struck Nietzsche, as the single most far right civilization. Of course, he admired that. Me ...

    Even the far-right hindu nationalists have heavily softened their position on caste. It’s too late to make a difference now, though.

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  89. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Interesting topic.

    For the past few months, I’ve been learning classical Sanskrit using Coulson’s 1976 book. Before I started Coulson’s book, I was under the impression that Sanskrit was in some manner “close” to classical Greek. At this point, I don’t see any connection between classical Greek and Sanskrit. I’m no philologist, though I used to be relatively fluent in classical Greek, so this observation could be very, very wrong.

    Also, last night until the wee hours, I was reading Anna Narriette Leonowens, “Life and Travel in India,” a book so riveting and observant I couldn’t put it down. Leonowens completely buys into the Aryan invasion scenario, one that she finds indisputable … just as contemporary academics have their own, less plausible “givens.” This book is available for free on Project Gutenberg, by the way, along with dozens of other colonist-era India narratives.

    Last week I read Walter Crane’s, “India Impressions” — a great book from the 1850s, or so. Leonowens wrote around 1900.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Anna Narriette Leonowens, “Life and Travel in India,”

    That's the Anna and the King of Siam Anna, right?

    , @Anon
    Coulsen's book is absolute crap, complete garbage. Like studying Shakespeare to learn English.

    I can see how it would spark an interest in IndoEuropean lingusitics, tho.
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  90. Rodolfo says:
    @matt

    And even that says IQ tests [sic]show differences in caste IQ, others don’t.
     
    It says that there are no differences on Raven's Progressive Matrices, which is the the single most highly g-loaded test, which Jensen called a more-or-less pure measure of g. There are differences on other, less g-loaded tests.

    The date of the studies cited doesn't matter, since it isn't as if there have been any revolutionary breakthroughs in giving people IQ tests. If you have later data that contradicts this, feel free to present it. Otherwise you can accept the scientific evidence I've presented, or you can go with your hunches and your "common sense". If you choose the latter option, though, don't pretend like you represent the side of scientific rationality in this argument, and that everyone who disagrees with you is some PC snowflake who can't accept the cold hard truth.

    No. Raven is not the “most g loaded test”. Consider that the Wais IV test has a subtest almost identical to Raven, “Matrix Reasoning”, and that not only is it not the subtest with the highest g-loading, as it has a g-loading identical to the subtest “Vocabulary”. Considering the test as a whole, the Wais g-loading is bigger than Raven’s, simply because it is more diverse in the kind of questions it has. Look:

    https://books.google.com.br/books?id=4iHTzkqdQYQC&lpg=PA36&pg=PA36#v=onepage

    Consider also that there is a massive evidence of scholastic hability difference between castes and that this in turn represents evidence of a difference in IQ between them. Even if there is a study in which no difference in IQ was found among Indian castes, remember that of the limited number of samples in these studies. If you have evidence of any massively applied test such as the US SAT, please show us.

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    • Replies: @matt
    I can't see the page you've linked to in my country. Until I can, I'll stick with Jensen, who wrote that Raven's "is among the two or three tests having the highest g loadings" (see this comment).

    I also didn't present "a study". If you look at my comments, you'll find a link to a book that lists several citations, one of which is a literature review. Have a look if you're interested.

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  91. iSteve ot here is a link to a good backgrounder on familiar topics in a new light.

    http://thephilosophicalsalon.com/the-cia-reads-french-theory-on-the-intellectual-labor-of-dismantling-the-cultural-left/

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  92. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @matt
    If you had bothered to follow the thread. You would have found a link to this source. Please read next time so you don't waste my time.

    At least in the country from where I’m trying to reach them, the pages you linked are unavailable for viewing.

    In any event, if I recall correctly, you are the commenter who last year touted the Eyferth study as some sort of strong evidence against hereditary theories of racial IQ differences. So I’m not totally confident how strong your evidence will prove to be.

    Nevertheless, I can tell you what I told you the last time: either way, we’ll have a lot of strong evidence very soon, so it’s pointless to get into debates where both of us are unwilling to change our opinions.

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    • Replies: @matt
    You may not be able to see the pages I've linked to, but you should be able to see my comment history. If you had bothered to click on my name and hit ctrl+f search "Eyferth", you would have seen what I said about those studies, where I forthrightly admit that they were flawed, but nevertheless that their flaws are exaggerated by people who have never read Flynn's defense of them in Race, IQ, and Jensen. I also said that they are one of the few pieces of direct evidence available, and some of the only studies that look at descendants of Black Americans in isolation from the Black American subculture. For all these reasons, Eyferth is important, though hardly dispositive.
    , @jim jones
    There is a free VPN called Tunnelbear which will let you change your location to the USA or Europe and therefore bypass any blocks.
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  93. ia says:
    @matt
    This isn't all that "surprising" or "shocking" outside of India. The reason why it remains controversial in the subcontinent is because of the political priorities of right-wing Hindu nationalism. Unlike right-wing nationalists outside the continent, who often celebrate the Aryan conquerors, Hindu nationalists usually deny the Aryan invasions, since affirming their existence would make it much harder to claim that Abrahamic faiths like Islam and Christianity are "invasive", anti-Indian, foreign threats. If Indo-European speakers really did conquer the subcontinent, then pretty much everyone in India is a descendant of invaders, not just Muslims. That's why this article in The Hindu needs to preface its argument by pointing out how shocking it appears to be, and it's why there's so much pushback in the comments from Indian readers.

    Hindu nationalism isn't the only right-wing ideology refuted by these findings, incidentally. Modern HBD-infused Euro-American nationalism is in the same boat as its subcontinental counterpart, if for different reasons. Contrary to what 19th and 20th century figures like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hitler, Rushton, and Lynn expected, there doesn't seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence, even though, as this article observes, "the ANI [Ancestral North Indian; i.e., Aryan] ancestry [is] higher in traditionally upper caste and Indo-European speakers."

    Hindu nationalism isn’t the only right-wing ideology refuted by these findings, incidentally.

    Your argument is what’s known as a red herring. Just because certain people believe intelligence is the deciding factor in racial or class difference doesn’t mean there aren’t other factors. In the case of India, the upper castes are physically larger and have lighter skin than lower caste Indians. Why wouldn’t these hereditary qualities make them more dominant in a hierarchy? After all, when non-whites in the West score big money they tend to favor light-skinned women as wives. And so do white men. This creates a normal, racial dominance hierarchy not necessarily dependent on being a pointy-head.

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  94. @conatus
    In invasions, males get slaughtered and women get screwed. It is easier for them to be raped than to fight back, at lest according to genetic results.
    They get raped by the invaders whereas the guys get their heads chopped off.

    The Guanches lived in the Canary Islands undisturbed for a thousand years. They were a Berber descended peoples who inhabited the Canary islands peacefully for a 1000 years until the Spanish discovered them in the 1450s and conquered them.Whose genes made it into the future, men or women?
    Not the guy's!
    Roughly 6 times as many feminist genes as guys.


    "Admixture analysis taking the Iberians, Northwest and West sub-Saharan African populations as parental sources of the actual Canarian population, gave estimates of around 33% for the maternal4 and 6% for the paternal5 Guanche lineages. This strong sexual asymmetry was explained as a result of a strong bias favouring matings between European males and aboriginal females, and to the important aboriginal male mortality during the Conquest."

    from here
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v12/n2/full/5201075a.html

    They get raped by the invaders whereas the guys get their heads chopped off.

    Rape or hypergamy?

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  95. Van Doren says:
    @Johann Ricke

    The reason for the difference in mtDNA and Y-DNA data is obvious in hindsight: there was strong sex bias in Bronze Age migrations. In other words, those who migrated were predominantly male and, therefore, those gene flows do not really show up in the mtDNA data.
     
    Warriors do tend to be male.

    Warriors do tend to kill native males. Women are valuable and are spared.

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  96. tanabear says:

    A primer on the proto-Indo-Europeans:

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  97. @TheJester
    We made a quick run through the Aryan invasion of India at the university in the 1960s. The story was that the Aryans brought Sanscript, the Hindi religion, and the caste system with them. Hence, it would be interesting to know when PC changed The Narrative.

    As the story went, the Aryan warriors and priests were at the top of the caste system. The native Indians were naturally at the bottom of the caste system ... the servants of the upper castes for life as they suffered for their personal transgressions through one of many lives buttressed by a belief in reincarnation. If the lower castes suffer lives of privation and ruin, it is because they deserve it. One need not and should not intervene, even to save lives. This is the same India that my wife saw last year on a two-week tour of the country.

    I have had very well educated Indians, upper castes of course, tell me that the caste system and reincarnation (with one depending on the other) are obvious ... like the sun coming up in the morning. They await Westerner Civilization achieving a measure of enlightenment to see the obvious. This is ironic since part of the upper-caste Indian narrative is that the Aryans were also responsible for Western Civilization, including Christianity that is nothing but a compilation of Hindi folktales that made their way from India to the Levant.

    Ideologies of Election, it seems, are almost universal among civilizations to justify caste, class, religious, racial, and cultural domination.

    What is “obvious”? That they exist?

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  98. matt says:
    @reiner Tor
    At least in the country from where I'm trying to reach them, the pages you linked are unavailable for viewing.

    In any event, if I recall correctly, you are the commenter who last year touted the Eyferth study as some sort of strong evidence against hereditary theories of racial IQ differences. So I'm not totally confident how strong your evidence will prove to be.

    Nevertheless, I can tell you what I told you the last time: either way, we'll have a lot of strong evidence very soon, so it's pointless to get into debates where both of us are unwilling to change our opinions.

    You may not be able to see the pages I’ve linked to, but you should be able to see my comment history. If you had bothered to click on my name and hit ctrl+f search “Eyferth”, you would have seen what I said about those studies, where I forthrightly admit that they were flawed, but nevertheless that their flaws are exaggerated by people who have never read Flynn’s defense of them in Race, IQ, and Jensen. I also said that they are one of the few pieces of direct evidence available, and some of the only studies that look at descendants of Black Americans in isolation from the Black American subculture. For all these reasons, Eyferth is important, though hardly dispositive.

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  99. @Flip
    I think the ANI/ASI article a few years ago tied the Aryans to Georgians, and there is the Indo-Iranian subset of the Indo-European languages, suggesting a connection there.

    Makes sense that they would have been a “low-trust” White subgroup.

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  100. @Jake
    Around 1910, we had scores of nut jobs who were preaching northern European nonsense, save that Slavs and Celts were always placed among the better bottom of their white hierarchy. That means they were German kooks vomiting the same German garbage.

    To get it right, you must go back to seeing things as they were, including when all Germanic tribes were little more than perpetual pirates and produced 0 culture worth saving.

    Those Germans after embracing the basics of Hellenistic civilization and orthodox Catholic Christianity did produce worthwhile culture.

    On the contrary, the description of Germans by Tacitus was rather flattering.

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  101. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Brother Ma
    Like Iranians of course. Aryans are the original white people /Caucasians . So the stereotype white person is closer to a Greek,Armenian or Iranian.
    Hitler simply blathered on about Aryans needing to be blue eyed and blonde ALL thetime. In fact ,his conception is simply the Nordic subtype . Have you ever seen real Germans? Hitler and his propaganda minister were so dark they could pass for southern Greeks or Italians. Still white /Caucasian but not Of Nordic subtype.

    The Kalash in Pakistan and the green -eyed girl of National Geographic cover fame are all examples of people who are originally Aryan from those original invasions or of the Nordic subtype frpm Alexander,s Macedonian Northern Greek settlers. In Iran today you still find many blue eyed blonde types of this Nordic subtype but to conclude: Iranian.

    Hitler and his propaganda minister were so dark

    They both had dark hair (though Goebbels had darker brown, Hitler had medium brown), but while Goebbels had brown eyes, Hitler’s eyes were blue. Their complexion was white, which is the color of most South Europeans (and even a lot of MENA people), especially if they do office work in Northern Europe and don’t get much suntan. I think both were close to the German average in terms of skin color.

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    • Replies: @Peter Akuleyev
    Hitler looked like a typical Czech, which is not surprising given his ancestors came from near the Bohemian border.
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  102. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Flip
    I think the ANI/ASI article a few years ago tied the Aryans to Georgians, and there is the Indo-Iranian subset of the Indo-European languages, suggesting a connection there.

    I think the ANI/ASI article a few years ago tied the Aryans to Georgians

    No way. Georgian language is not even Indo-European.

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  103. Gringo says:

    I am reminded of an anecdote a friend told me after her trip to India. She was in southern India, where the majority are Dravadians speaking one of the Dravadian languages. My friend asked someone in southern India if he spoke Hindi. “We don’t speak the conquerer’s language,” came the reply.

    As such,English is a neutral language in India by virtue of finessing the history of who conquered whom before the English came to India.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    The Dalit Untouchables are big fans of Thomas Babington Macaulay for making English the language of higher education in India.
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  104. Broski says:
    @AaronB
    I never understood why linguistic similarities allowed us to conclude similarity of race. All it seems to suggest is proximity, interaction, and influence. Lot of different races in the same area spoke the same or similar languages.

    Its like future archeologists, after the Catastrophe, will conclude that people in Hong Kong and England were part of some great original race.

    Maybe I'm missing something. Can someone explain why it isn't a leap to posit an Indo-Aryan race based on linguistic similarity?

    “Can someone explain why it isn’t a leap to posit an Indo-Aryan race based on linguistic similarity?”

    It was a leap. That’s why only now, with DNA studies, is the theory confirmed.

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    • Replies: @Jim
    Linguistic similarities closely correspond to genetic similarities. Of course there are exceptions but generally there is correspondence. The evidence since the early 19th century always indicated the area north of the Black Sea as the most likely place where Proto-Indo-European was spoken and it was always unlikely that the original speakers were highly diverse.

    By the way it is better to use the term Indo-European rather than Indo-Aryan. Aryan more properly refers to one branch of Indo-European which is also called Indo-Iranian.
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  105. OT. A meme is born.

    James [Hodgkinson, the Hammer of Republicans] told her that he was going to Washington, D.C. to “work on taxes” and “change the tax brackets,” she said.

    http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/16/exclusive-assassination-list-found-on-james-hodgkinsons-body/

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  106. @guest
    How can that not be a parody post? I mean, they could've referenced Stephen Jay Gould or the March of Progress, but UNESCO? That's thanking the United Colors of Benetton.

    India had a lot of pretty high trade barriers for decades ( maybe on books as well? ) after independence, maybe they were not aware of fashionable thinkers in the rest of the Anglosphere.

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  107. @Lot

    Raven’s Progressive Matrices, which is the the single most highly g-loaded test
     
    Then why is the most effected by the Flynn effect? 2.4 standard deviation improvement in Western test-takers compared to ~0.3 for arthritic. If you knew anything about India, you'd be skeptical of any claim to have tested representative samples of the population. What we do know is that India has a massive affirmative action program for the lower castes in its otherwise meritocratic examination-based university admissions. Where it actually counts, the lower castes do far worse on g-loaded tests.

    Otherwise you can accept the scientific evidence I’ve presented
     
    Two paragraphs in a book is not "scientific evidence."

    everyone who disagrees with you is some PC snowflake who can’t accept the cold hard truth
     
    So you are not a PC snowflake then? Humor me and let me know your estimates for genotypical IQ for the following groups: NE Asians, Ashkenazi, white Americans, black Americans, SE Asians, Pakistanis.

    You make a good point about the need for Affirmative Action telling the real story here.

    If indeed all castes do effectively equally well on relevant tests, why is there any need of Affirmative Action? And even if it’s only one test of cognitive ability on which there’s full parity, such as Raven’s, why not implement “Affirmative Action” by insisting that that test, or something akin to it, be the test to determine placement in colleges and in jobs?

    This is also one of the arguments against the claim that blacks in England are doing every bit as well as whites academically. Why is it considered such an embarrassing problem for elite universities such as Cambridge and Oxford that the numbers of blacks are so low if, in fact, blacks are doing ever bit as well on the relevant tests?

    Really, the very existence and necessity of Affirmative Action tells the tale. It demonstrates the reality of the situation, despite the heroic attempts at obfuscation (if such attempts can be heroic).

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    • Replies: @candid_observer
    One can think about the call for Affirmative Action as being the unfakeable signal of a minority's real situation. If, indeed, a minority is doing every bit as well as others on a relevant metric, why should there ever be a need for Affirmative Action?
    , @reiner Tor

    If indeed all castes do effectively equally well on relevant tests, why is there any need of Affirmative Action?
     
    And why is it that among those receiving affirmative action benefits, the highest castes do the best? (See Greg Clark in his The Son Also Rises.)
    , @matt
    See my latest reply to Lot. In any case, the supposition that any system of official discrimination must always favor the lower performing group is extremely foolish. I'm sure you can think of historical counterexamples. In fact, it isn't even true in India, quite aside from caste issues. Christians are the most educationally and economically successful religious community in that country, yet, in the states of Tamil Nadu and Kerala, the reservation system benefits Christians.
    , @JohnnyWalker123
    Most likely because there are significant differences in wealth among the social classes in India. Since India (like China) places a huge emphasis on cram schools, my guess is that the upper caste parents can afford a very extreme degreee of Tiger Parenting. So the lower castes want affirmative action to help them compete.
    , @snorlax
    You and Lot are generally correct that the presence of affirmative action tells the whole story, but I would special-case India. Casteism, "Brahmin privilege" and so forth in India really is what SJWs imagine "racism" and "white privilege" to be in America and Europe.

    FWIW, my guess is Indian IQs do increase with caste, mainly because I'd expect poverty to cause r-selection and affluence to cause K-selection. The IQ numbers for high-caste Indians-in-India are probably artificially depressed because so many high-IQ, high-caste Indians emigrate.
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  108. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Sunbeam
    "Aryans” became Kangz because of the diligence of Dravidians of the Indus Valley."

    You are making a funny, but while I am unclear on some of your examples, I'd like to hear any input from anyone (I've seen some Indian posters for example on here) who knows much about the Dravidians.

    From stray things I've read the Dravidians had advanced agriculture for the era, had massive cities for the era, and had Roman level plumbing (1000+ years before Rome?).

    Whereas concerning the Aryans... somewhere I read a description of them with their key features listed:

    1) They liked horses.
    2) They really liked horses.
    3) They drank milk
    4) They really liked to fight.
    5) They really, really liked to fight.
    6) They didn't like to work
    7) They really liked [insert yourself here] making you do their work for them.

    and this is more speculative,

    8) They were kinda short guys, maybe even kind of swarthy, with black hair. Not sure where that one came from, some kind of thing mocking Nazis and blondicism I guess. You know Hitler himself was actually the phenotype Aryan, not the guy on the posters. Maybe, maybe not.
    9) Oh yeah, and that whole language thing.

    Anyway, my understanding is from this site that India has some really high IQ people in the upper castes (descended from Aryans?), and a gigantic mass of the lower IQ peoples that are the grist of this site.

    But at the time of this invasion, it sure seems to me that it was one of those cookie cutter horse nomad invasions of a more advanced culture we've seen time and again in history.

    Any Indians or knowledgeable people on the subject got any input on this?

    My unscientific impression is that South Indian upper castes (quite dark, much darker than any Northerners, regardless of caste) are in general the most intelligent types.

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    • Replies: @K
    reiner tor, i am south-indian upper caste and i disagree.

    Maybe you got that impression from their 'coding prowess'? But they are pretty average at everything else.
    , @PV van der Byl
    Certainly, dark-skinned (though high caste) Tamil Brahmins are heavily over-represented in software engineeting.
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  109. The Indians from India and from wherever else they come from will have to go back. When that statement seems obvious will be the moment when the European Christian ancestral core of the United States is ready to reclaim their land.

    The Indians are here to colonize us. The evil ruling class of the American Empire is bringing them here to weaken the European Christian ancestral core of the United States.

    Demography and Debt. If the politicians ain’t talking about that, don’t listen to them.

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    What is important about "Debt"?
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  110. @Johann Ricke

    The reason for the difference in mtDNA and Y-DNA data is obvious in hindsight: there was strong sex bias in Bronze Age migrations. In other words, those who migrated were predominantly male and, therefore, those gene flows do not really show up in the mtDNA data.
     
    Warriors do tend to be male.

    LOL! It’s surprising how rarely invading women rape conquered males compared with how often invading males kill conquered males and rape conquered females. Further research is needed to determine the cause of these strangely asymmetric sexual patterns. OTOH, anthropologists might just re-familiarize themselves with the Illiad, Aeneid, Book of Joshua, et al.

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  111. @Steve Sailer
    India strikes me, as it struck Nietzsche, as the single most far right civilization. Of course, he admired that. Me ...

    Alfred Rosenberg’s favourite civilisation too.

    Me, I prefer Czarist Russia.

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    • Replies: @syonredux
    HP Lovecraft said that his ideal would be an England that combined the high morals of the Victorians with the fire of the Elizabethans and the good taste of the Georgians.....
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  112. @guest
    How can that not be a parody post? I mean, they could've referenced Stephen Jay Gould or the March of Progress, but UNESCO? That's thanking the United Colors of Benetton.

    The March of progress is a ridiculous notion which Gould was 100 percent correct to deride in numerous books and articles. Evolution is not “progressive”.

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/11/12/complexity-walls-0-400-hitting-and-evolutionary-progress/

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    • Replies: @guest
    I realize I did capitalize it, but I wasn't thinking of the specific evolutionary March of Progress. I was thinking of the idea that with every new Current Year we get better, at least since the progressive movement. Which really has nothing to do with biological evolution.

    That was probably not the best way to put it in a thread about DNA and a post mentioning Gould.
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  113. K says:
    @reiner Tor
    My unscientific impression is that South Indian upper castes (quite dark, much darker than any Northerners, regardless of caste) are in general the most intelligent types.

    reiner tor, i am south-indian upper caste and i disagree.

    Maybe you got that impression from their ‘coding prowess’? But they are pretty average at everything else.

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  114. Hitler agreed with you, and made great fun of Himmler and his runic obsessions.

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    • Replies: @syonredux
    Hitler seems to have enjoyed mocking some of the more extreme examples of Nazi Nordicism:

    Why do we call the whole world’s attention to the fact that we have no past? It isn’t enough that the Romans were erecting great buildings when our forefathers were still living in mud huts; now Himmler is starting to dig up these villages of mud huts and enthusing over every potsherd and stone axe he finds. All we prove by that is that we were still throwing stone hatchets and crouching around open fires when Greece and Rome had already reached the highest stage of culture. We really should do our best to keep quiet about this past. Instead Himmler makes a great fuss about it all. The present-day Romans must be having a laugh at these revelations
     
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  115. syonredux says:

    Razib Khan on South Asian genes:

    What can we say now?

    – The 2009 work that modern South Asians are broadly a compound of two streams of the out of Africa populations is correct. One is much like other West Eurasians. Another is distantly related to other East Eurasians, with possible affinities to Paleolithic Southeast Asian hunter-gatherers.

    – The West Eurasian ancestry of South Asians, the “Ancestral North Indians” (ANI), does likely seem to be a mixture at minimum between two groups. One element is related to the eastern farmers who first adopted agriculture on the slopes of the Zagros ~10,000 year ago. Another stream is closely related to the Yamna people who flourished on the Eurasian steppe north of the Black Sea ~5,000 years ago.

    – The Munda peoples seem to have a distinct Southeast Asian component that ties them with other Austro-Asiatic peoples. Their migration was almost certainly tied to the Neolithic migration of rice farmers. They are likely not the primal aboriginals of South Asia.

    – The R1a1a-Z93 Y chromosomal lineage found across much of South Asia, and especially the higher castes and the north, increased in frequency within the last 4,000 years. It is almost certainly exogenous to South Asia; ancient DNA from the steppe finds the Z93 in Iranic peoples, but no Indian ancestry in these groups.

    http://www.brownpundits.com/2017/06/10/the-last-days-of-pre-ancient-dna-indian-population-genomics/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+RazibKhansTotalFeed+%28Razib+Khan%27s+total+feed%29

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  116. Kirt says:

    I was always under the impression that the Aryan invasions were as established a fact as you can get in history that ancient. But Indian PM Modi and his party have been promoting the idea that India is the Aryan homeland and that the Aryans were the primordial inhabitants. I don’t know what he is up to, but I understand you can be in some trouble with the current government if you assert that the Aryans were invaders.

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  117. syonredux says:
    @Old Palo Altan
    Hitler agreed with you, and made great fun of Himmler and his runic obsessions.

    Hitler seems to have enjoyed mocking some of the more extreme examples of Nazi Nordicism:

    Why do we call the whole world’s attention to the fact that we have no past? It isn’t enough that the Romans were erecting great buildings when our forefathers were still living in mud huts; now Himmler is starting to dig up these villages of mud huts and enthusing over every potsherd and stone axe he finds. All we prove by that is that we were still throwing stone hatchets and crouching around open fires when Greece and Rome had already reached the highest stage of culture. We really should do our best to keep quiet about this past. Instead Himmler makes a great fuss about it all. The present-day Romans must be having a laugh at these revelations

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    • Replies: @nebulafox
    Hitler had little time for the romantic notions of the SS in general, which he dismissed as pseudo-religious nonsense. (He wasn't the only one-Josef Goebbels dismissed Himmler's ideological fixations as "in many regards, mad" in his diary.) As Joachim Fest noted, Hitler admired classical Greece and Rome far more than the ancient Germanics.

    "What nonsense! Here we have at last reached an age that has left all mysticism behind it, and now Himmler wants to start that all over again. We might just as well have stayed with the Church. At least it had tradition. To think that I may some day be turned into an SS saint! Can you imagine it? I would turn over in my grave..."

    With that being said, Nazism itself was, practically speaking, a pseudo-religion. Although Hitler had long since ceased to be a Catholic in any meaningful sense of the word by the time he entered politics in 1919, the pomp and ritual of his boyhood Catholicism in Austria made an indelible impact on Nazi aesthetics, and to some extent, ideology.

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  118. syonredux says:
    @Old Palo Altan
    Alfred Rosenberg's favourite civilisation too.

    Me, I prefer Czarist Russia.

    HP Lovecraft said that his ideal would be an England that combined the high morals of the Victorians with the fire of the Elizabethans and the good taste of the Georgians…..

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  119. @Pat Boyle
    Anthropology seems to be retreating from 'niceness'. About thirty years ago we deciphered Mayan artifacts and learned a bit about what they thought of themselves. It was shocking. Mainstream academic anthropology had convinced everyone that the Mayan were peaceable philosopher-priests who spent most of their time contemplating nature and the beauty of the forest.

    Complete nonsense. Similarly there has been a strong preference for imagining almost all population changes as not invasions but rather the spread of modernizing innovations by cooperative peaceable farmers. But again new evidence makes it appear that ancient man was violent and aggressive just as we had formerly suspected.

    Less and less about early life on this planet appears to have been truly 'nice'.

    No one denies the Maya were violent, but you can’t discredit their discoveries.

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    • Replies: @Pat Boyle
    I wasn't addressing the virtues or the vices of the Maya. My point had to do with the credulity of anthropologists.
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  120. @candid_observer
    You make a good point about the need for Affirmative Action telling the real story here.

    If indeed all castes do effectively equally well on relevant tests, why is there any need of Affirmative Action? And even if it's only one test of cognitive ability on which there's full parity, such as Raven's, why not implement "Affirmative Action" by insisting that that test, or something akin to it, be the test to determine placement in colleges and in jobs?

    This is also one of the arguments against the claim that blacks in England are doing every bit as well as whites academically. Why is it considered such an embarrassing problem for elite universities such as Cambridge and Oxford that the numbers of blacks are so low if, in fact, blacks are doing ever bit as well on the relevant tests?

    Really, the very existence and necessity of Affirmative Action tells the tale. It demonstrates the reality of the situation, despite the heroic attempts at obfuscation (if such attempts can be heroic).

    One can think about the call for Affirmative Action as being the unfakeable signal of a minority’s real situation. If, indeed, a minority is doing every bit as well as others on a relevant metric, why should there ever be a need for Affirmative Action?

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    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Disagree: JohnnyWalker123
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    This isn't neccessarily correct.

    At the elite end of academic achievement, parental influence and environment matter a lot. Especially in countries with traditions of Tiger Parenting. So if an upper caste parent can afford an expensive tutor and a lower caste parent can't afford a tutor, whose kid will do better (assuming equal IQ)?

    As Ron Unz has pointed out, the IQ scores of early 20th century Euro immigrants were about a standard deviation below the White mean. Now they're about equal. Given that India is a much poorer and more unequal country than early 20th century America, I'm sure there is a very extreme degree of IQ depression.
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  121. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @candid_observer
    You make a good point about the need for Affirmative Action telling the real story here.

    If indeed all castes do effectively equally well on relevant tests, why is there any need of Affirmative Action? And even if it's only one test of cognitive ability on which there's full parity, such as Raven's, why not implement "Affirmative Action" by insisting that that test, or something akin to it, be the test to determine placement in colleges and in jobs?

    This is also one of the arguments against the claim that blacks in England are doing every bit as well as whites academically. Why is it considered such an embarrassing problem for elite universities such as Cambridge and Oxford that the numbers of blacks are so low if, in fact, blacks are doing ever bit as well on the relevant tests?

    Really, the very existence and necessity of Affirmative Action tells the tale. It demonstrates the reality of the situation, despite the heroic attempts at obfuscation (if such attempts can be heroic).

    If indeed all castes do effectively equally well on relevant tests, why is there any need of Affirmative Action?

    And why is it that among those receiving affirmative action benefits, the highest castes do the best? (See Greg Clark in his The Son Also Rises.)

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  122. jim jones says:
    @reiner Tor
    At least in the country from where I'm trying to reach them, the pages you linked are unavailable for viewing.

    In any event, if I recall correctly, you are the commenter who last year touted the Eyferth study as some sort of strong evidence against hereditary theories of racial IQ differences. So I'm not totally confident how strong your evidence will prove to be.

    Nevertheless, I can tell you what I told you the last time: either way, we'll have a lot of strong evidence very soon, so it's pointless to get into debates where both of us are unwilling to change our opinions.

    There is a free VPN called Tunnelbear which will let you change your location to the USA or Europe and therefore bypass any blocks.

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  123. rec1man says:

    Indian IQ , vs caste, based on 2016, CA National Merit

    Total Indian winners = 275

    South Indian Brahmins = 90
    North Indian Brahmins = 30

    North Indian merchants = 60
    Forward Caste Dravidians = 60
    ( forward caste dravidians do exist, about 20% have been co-opted by brahmins )

    Jat Sikhs ( the most Aryan of any caste ) = 3
    Patel = 4

    CA national merit for previous years, show the same pattern

    Affirmative Action has been there for 100 years in India, with no sign of closing the gap

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    • Replies: @K
    Rec1man,

    If you keep posting those kinds of caste comments people will wrongly think all indians are casteist and they only care about defending their caste and not their country. So stop with the caste posts and defend your country (not your caste) if somebody projects it in the wrong way.

    Country comes first not caste.
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  124. MBlanc46 says:
    @TWS
    The comments on the original article are interesting. It's weird how some will call racist when it's pure science.

    Science is racist when it does not hew to the Neo-Stalinist narrative.

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  125. matt says:
    @Lot

    Raven’s Progressive Matrices, which is the the single most highly g-loaded test
     
    Then why is the most effected by the Flynn effect? 2.4 standard deviation improvement in Western test-takers compared to ~0.3 for arthritic. If you knew anything about India, you'd be skeptical of any claim to have tested representative samples of the population. What we do know is that India has a massive affirmative action program for the lower castes in its otherwise meritocratic examination-based university admissions. Where it actually counts, the lower castes do far worse on g-loaded tests.

    Otherwise you can accept the scientific evidence I’ve presented
     
    Two paragraphs in a book is not "scientific evidence."

    everyone who disagrees with you is some PC snowflake who can’t accept the cold hard truth
     
    So you are not a PC snowflake then? Humor me and let me know your estimates for genotypical IQ for the following groups: NE Asians, Ashkenazi, white Americans, black Americans, SE Asians, Pakistanis.

    Then why is [sic the most effected sic by the Flynn effect?

    That’s an interesting question. Flynn thinks it has to do with the fact that Raven’s is a measure of abstract thinking ability, and cultural priorities have shifted over the decades toward valuing abstract over concrete thought. In any case, Raven’s gains over time don’t change the results of factor analysis applied to Raven’s scores at a given time, which Jensen summarizes in The g Factor (p. 38):

    When the Progressive Matrices test is factor analyzed along with a variety of other tests, it is typically among the two or three tests having the highest g loadings, usually around .80. Probably its most distinctive feature is its very low loadings on any factor other than g. Raven’s Progressive Matrices is often used as a “marker” test for Spearman’s g. That is, it is entered into a factor analysis with other tests of unknown factor composition, and if the Matrices has a high loading on the general factor of the matrix of unknown tests, its g loading serves as a standard by which the g loadings of the other tests in the battery can be evaluated. I have yet to see a factor analysis of any diverse collection of tests that includes Raven’s Matrices in which the Raven’s largest loading was found on any factor other than g.

    If you knew anything about India, you’d be skeptical of any claim to have tested representative samples of the population.

    It’s hard to get representative data for the entire Indian population, but it’s easier to get data for a particular state or region. I tracked down one of the studies (Chopra 1966), which gathered an N=1359 sample of high school students of four castes in both rural and urban districts of Lucknow.

    In any case, if you’d like some more “real world” evidence, you can take a look at the Human Development Index scores for Indian states. If you look at the maps at Wikipedia, you can see that the southern (more Dravidian) states have higher HDI than the northern (more Indo-European and Middle Eastern) states, with the southernmost state, Kerala, having the highest HDI of all. The same holds for fertility rates, which are of course correlated with IQ.

    What we do know is that India has a massive affirmative action program for the lower castes in its otherwise meritocratic examination-based university admissions.

    It has a “reservation” system for “scheduled castes”, meaning the lowest castes. If you look at the evidence I cited, the scheduled castes actually do score somewhat lower than the other castes on cognitive tests, although not on non-verbal tests like Raven’s. Moreover, they get lower marks in school. This shouldn’t be surprising on either an environmentalist or a hereditarian hypothesis (although hereditarianism would predict a caste gap on Raven’s). Moreover, hereditarianism would predict, not only a gap between the scheduled and non-scheduled castes, but other caste gaps as well, in favor of the higher castes. The evidence I cited above, on the contrary, shows a decline in IQ and school marks from Brahmins to Vaishya (and not much of a gap between Brahmins and Scheduled Caste).

    Since the scheduled castes do show worst performance at least on verbal tests, that would be enough to translate into worse socioeconomic performance, and thus necessitate affirmative action. What should be surprising to hereditarians is that (A) the scheduled castes do not appear to do worse on non-verbal and highly g-loaded tests like Raven’s, and (B) outside of the scheduled castes, the caste gaps go in the opposite of the predicted direction.

    Two paragraphs in a book is not “scientific evidence.”

    I don’t know why you’re so hung up on the number of paragraphs, but in those paragraphs you’ll find four citations, one of which is a literature review with many more citations.

    So you are not a PC snowflake then? Humor me and let me know your estimates for genotypical IQ for the following groups: NE Asians, Ashkenazi, white Americans, black Americans, SE Asians, Pakistanis.

    The notion of “genotypical IQ” makes no sense, but I can say that at present the balance of evidence suggests that it is more likely than not that, in the same environment, white and black Americans would develop the same phenotypic IQ. Look through my comment history if you want to know why I think that. I don’t know enough about the other populations you mention to make an informed judgment.

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    • Replies: @matt
    Per capita GDP follows much the same pattern for Indian states, with the southern states being richer in general the northern ones (although some of the richest states are in the north).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_union_territories_by_GDP_per_capita
    , @Anonym
    The notion of “genotypical IQ” makes no sense, but I can say that at present the balance of evidence suggests that it is more likely than not that, in the same environment, white and black Americans would develop the same phenotypic IQ. Look through my comment history if you want to know why I think that. I don’t know enough about the other populations you mention to make an informed judgment.

    That was some pro questioning by Lot to bring up this. Props to you, Lot.

    Since the 1960s there has been all manner of attempts and billions of dollars spent to level "the gap", and it has been a dismal failure. We are expected to believe that in all the sub-Saharan cultures around the world, including the ones where there are only SSAs, that it is all the case of the environment dragging the black man down, and that it is only the environment of the white man that is the difference? Same schools, same workplaces... it must be terrible black parenting to blame. If only the blacks had that magical parenting touch of the white man! Maybe it even starts in the womb. But not one moment earlier than conception!
    , @namae nanka

    but I can say that at present the balance of evidence suggests that it is more likely than not that, in the same environment, white and black Americans would develop the same phenotypic IQ
     
    How long have you been reading Steve?

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/applying-occams-razor-vs-asserting-occams-racist/
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  126. @reiner Tor
    My unscientific impression is that South Indian upper castes (quite dark, much darker than any Northerners, regardless of caste) are in general the most intelligent types.

    Certainly, dark-skinned (though high caste) Tamil Brahmins are heavily over-represented in software engineeting.

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  127. matt says:
    @candid_observer
    You make a good point about the need for Affirmative Action telling the real story here.

    If indeed all castes do effectively equally well on relevant tests, why is there any need of Affirmative Action? And even if it's only one test of cognitive ability on which there's full parity, such as Raven's, why not implement "Affirmative Action" by insisting that that test, or something akin to it, be the test to determine placement in colleges and in jobs?

    This is also one of the arguments against the claim that blacks in England are doing every bit as well as whites academically. Why is it considered such an embarrassing problem for elite universities such as Cambridge and Oxford that the numbers of blacks are so low if, in fact, blacks are doing ever bit as well on the relevant tests?

    Really, the very existence and necessity of Affirmative Action tells the tale. It demonstrates the reality of the situation, despite the heroic attempts at obfuscation (if such attempts can be heroic).

    See my latest reply to Lot. In any case, the supposition that any system of official discrimination must always favor the lower performing group is extremely foolish. I’m sure you can think of historical counterexamples. In fact, it isn’t even true in India, quite aside from caste issues. Christians are the most educationally and economically successful religious community in that country, yet, in the states of Tamil Nadu and Kerala, the reservation system benefits Christians.

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  128. grapesoda says:
    @TheJester
    We made a quick run through the Aryan invasion of India at the university in the 1960s. The story was that the Aryans brought Sanscript, the Hindi religion, and the caste system with them. Hence, it would be interesting to know when PC changed The Narrative.

    As the story went, the Aryan warriors and priests were at the top of the caste system. The native Indians were naturally at the bottom of the caste system ... the servants of the upper castes for life as they suffered for their personal transgressions through one of many lives buttressed by a belief in reincarnation. If the lower castes suffer lives of privation and ruin, it is because they deserve it. One need not and should not intervene, even to save lives. This is the same India that my wife saw last year on a two-week tour of the country.

    I have had very well educated Indians, upper castes of course, tell me that the caste system and reincarnation (with one depending on the other) are obvious ... like the sun coming up in the morning. They await Westerner Civilization achieving a measure of enlightenment to see the obvious. This is ironic since part of the upper-caste Indian narrative is that the Aryans were also responsible for Western Civilization, including Christianity that is nothing but a compilation of Hindi folktales that made their way from India to the Levant.

    Ideologies of Election, it seems, are almost universal among civilizations to justify caste, class, religious, racial, and cultural domination.

    The story was that the Aryans brought Sanscript, the Hindi religion

    You just said two very retarded things in your first sentence. Just stop. Just stop. Just stop. You don’t know anything about India. You are making a fool out of yourself by trying to rehash your ridiculous 1960s class which was also taught by people who know nothing about India, have never lived in India, and don’t participate in or understand any aspects of Indian culture.

    my wife saw last year on a two-week tour of the country

    Exactly. But I’m sure because she has white skin and comes from a wealthy country then she’s suddenly qualified to judge complex civilizations based on her superficial observations.

    One of the main components of knowledge is to know what you don’t know, and where you have some reasonable amount of learning and expertise. Yet here you are sounding off about something about which you have absolutely no knowledge, like an utter fool.

    People like you shouldn’t go to University at all. You’d be better off being a welder or something.

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  129. nebulafox says:
    @Brother Ma
    Like Iranians of course. Aryans are the original white people /Caucasians . So the stereotype white person is closer to a Greek,Armenian or Iranian.
    Hitler simply blathered on about Aryans needing to be blue eyed and blonde ALL thetime. In fact ,his conception is simply the Nordic subtype . Have you ever seen real Germans? Hitler and his propaganda minister were so dark they could pass for southern Greeks or Italians. Still white /Caucasian but not Of Nordic subtype.

    The Kalash in Pakistan and the green -eyed girl of National Geographic cover fame are all examples of people who are originally Aryan from those original invasions or of the Nordic subtype frpm Alexander,s Macedonian Northern Greek settlers. In Iran today you still find many blue eyed blonde types of this Nordic subtype but to conclude: Iranian.

    Farsi is far more related to European languages than to Semitic languages like Arabic or Hebrew. It is a surprisingly easy language to learn for English speakers, in spite of the Arabic-style writing script and name.

    Anyway, yes. Persians are more or less Islamized Caucasians-quite literally, in fact, when you consider that everything related to the word “Aryan” comes originally from Iran. Pale skin and green eyes are very common. They’ve “only” been Shi’a since the 17th Century. They’ve been Persian since the beginning of time.

    (It’s tricky to speak of an “Iranian”, because Iran is a pretty diverse place with lots of minorities. But like China, there’s very clearly an overwhelmingly dominant culture that has an uninterrupted cultural tapestry going back thousands of years. Russia, too, deals with this misconception-less than 4/5ths of the populace is ethnically Russian, yet a lot of secularized Central Asian/Tartar types identify completely with Russian culture and the Kremlin politically. As one example, Shoygu-Putin’s minister of Defense and one of his top cronies-is half Tuvan and a Buddhist, and one of the men Putin seems to admire most is this elderly Muslim general and leading military theorist in Russia, Makhmut Gareev.)

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    • Replies: @Jim
    Farsi is of course an Indo-European language not an Afro-Asiatic(Semitic) language.

    Modern Iran has a large number of speakers of Turkic languages. There are also Kurdish speakers. The Kurdish language is an Indo-Iranian (Aryan) language.
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  130. matt says:
    @matt

    Then why is [sic the most effected sic by the Flynn effect?
     
    That's an interesting question. Flynn thinks it has to do with the fact that Raven's is a measure of abstract thinking ability, and cultural priorities have shifted over the decades toward valuing abstract over concrete thought. In any case, Raven's gains over time don't change the results of factor analysis applied to Raven's scores at a given time, which Jensen summarizes in The g Factor (p. 38):

    When the Progressive Matrices test is factor analyzed along with a variety of other tests, it is typically among the two or three tests having the highest g loadings, usually around .80. Probably its most distinctive feature is its very low loadings on any factor other than g. Raven’s Progressive Matrices is often used as a “marker” test for Spearman’s g. That is, it is entered into a factor analysis with other tests of unknown factor composition, and if the Matrices has a high loading on the general factor of the matrix of unknown tests, its g loading serves as a standard by which the g loadings of the other tests in the battery can be evaluated. I have yet to see a factor analysis of any diverse collection of tests that includes Raven’s Matrices in which the Raven’s largest loading was found on any factor other than g.
     

    If you knew anything about India, you’d be skeptical of any claim to have tested representative samples of the population.
     
    It's hard to get representative data for the entire Indian population, but it's easier to get data for a particular state or region. I tracked down one of the studies (Chopra 1966), which gathered an N=1359 sample of high school students of four castes in both rural and urban districts of Lucknow.

    In any case, if you'd like some more "real world" evidence, you can take a look at the Human Development Index scores for Indian states. If you look at the maps at Wikipedia, you can see that the southern (more Dravidian) states have higher HDI than the northern (more Indo-European and Middle Eastern) states, with the southernmost state, Kerala, having the highest HDI of all. The same holds for fertility rates, which are of course correlated with IQ.

    What we do know is that India has a massive affirmative action program for the lower castes in its otherwise meritocratic examination-based university admissions.
     
    It has a "reservation" system for "scheduled castes", meaning the lowest castes. If you look at the evidence I cited, the scheduled castes actually do score somewhat lower than the other castes on cognitive tests, although not on non-verbal tests like Raven's. Moreover, they get lower marks in school. This shouldn't be surprising on either an environmentalist or a hereditarian hypothesis (although hereditarianism would predict a caste gap on Raven's). Moreover, hereditarianism would predict, not only a gap between the scheduled and non-scheduled castes, but other caste gaps as well, in favor of the higher castes. The evidence I cited above, on the contrary, shows a decline in IQ and school marks from Brahmins to Vaishya (and not much of a gap between Brahmins and Scheduled Caste).

    Since the scheduled castes do show worst performance at least on verbal tests, that would be enough to translate into worse socioeconomic performance, and thus necessitate affirmative action. What should be surprising to hereditarians is that (A) the scheduled castes do not appear to do worse on non-verbal and highly g-loaded tests like Raven's, and (B) outside of the scheduled castes, the caste gaps go in the opposite of the predicted direction.

    Two paragraphs in a book is not “scientific evidence.”
     
    I don't know why you're so hung up on the number of paragraphs, but in those paragraphs you'll find four citations, one of which is a literature review with many more citations.

    So you are not a PC snowflake then? Humor me and let me know your estimates for genotypical IQ for the following groups: NE Asians, Ashkenazi, white Americans, black Americans, SE Asians, Pakistanis.
     
    The notion of "genotypical IQ" makes no sense, but I can say that at present the balance of evidence suggests that it is more likely than not that, in the same environment, white and black Americans would develop the same phenotypic IQ. Look through my comment history if you want to know why I think that. I don't know enough about the other populations you mention to make an informed judgment.

    Per capita GDP follows much the same pattern for Indian states, with the southern states being richer in general the northern ones (although some of the richest states are in the north).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_union_territories_by_GDP_per_capita

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  131. Mr. Anon says:
    @Weltanschauung
    Not as bad as a parenthetical I saw in a Scientific American article announcing some recent result in number theory:

    primes (whole numbers that cannot be expressed as the products of smaller whole numbers)
     
    If you needed the parenthetical note, you probably aren't getting much out of the article.

    Scientific American (which is now neither scientific nor american) has always been frustrating in that they underestimated their readership. It would be nice if there was a general-interest science magazine pitched at the educated layman. SciAm is not it and never was.

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    • Replies: @Crawfurdmuir
    You might like The American Scientist, published by the Sigma Xi fraternity. I think a non-member may subscribe.
    , @TomSchmidt
    I like IEEE Spectrum. Abandoned SciAm years ago when their editor decided to show Kansas a thing or two about evolution. I just want to read science, not tar and feather the deplorables.
    , @Old Jew
    I started reading SciAm in 1973 when I got to America.

    The articles were written by top scientists. Long, Meaty.

    I donated away my collection, so I cannot tell exactly the year when Scientific American started to go down.

    All I know is that today, many articles are written by "science writers" (people without technical education) which talk down to us assuming that "the reader" is as scientifically challenged as they themselves.

    The Editor in chief, Christina Di...... is full of good intentions, but not steeped in science.

    A poster before mentioned IEEE Spectrum. It is good. It respects our brain. But how often did you read there about frogs or kangaroos. A grandchild of the 1973 SciAM is sorely needed.

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  132. Logan says:

    One of the oddest things I’ve run across is the fact that many Indians are offended by the idea that Aryans invaded India thousands of years ago, bringing the main languages and the basics of Indian civilization.

    This is odd because the commonly accepted theory is that the Aryans originated somewhere north of the Black or Caspian Seas where they split, with one group going east and south into India and the other west and south into Europe.

    As far as I know Europeans have never been offended by this idea. So why are Indians upset by it?

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    • Replies: @K
    Firstly because there are many holes in the theory. It still doesnt hold up to scientific rigor. Were those gene findings independantly verified by a third party? Who funded the study? Was it peer reviewed? Who peer-reviewed the study? How many peer- reviewed the study. What was the sample size of the study? You cant determine the genes of a billion using just a few thousand people.

    Secondly because, indians often get lampooned for their lack of scientific discoveries and inventions (modern). ( I saw a comment on this very site itself a few days back by somebody which said that indians and chinese cant even invent a toilet bowl by themselves!) So inorder to defend against those kind of comments they try to show their ancient discoveries and inventions (because they only have those to show for now). And when they show them, people find some way to say that it came from the outside. This upsets indians.

    Damn if they do, damn if they dont.

    Also somebody here said indians created the OIT theory. But it also was only done as a 'response' to theories that said every thing good about india came from outside india.

    , @Numinous

    As far as I know Europeans have never been offended by this idea. So why are Indians upset by it?
     
    Because the narrative tends to be be similar to comment #2, that Indo-Europeans == modern Europeans (more or less) while Indians are a degenerate mestizo population with some (but not much) IE ancestry. India is condemned to be hopelessly mired in poverty and backwardness until white invaders (Indo-Europeans, British) come in, marginally improve the gene pool, and innovate (and then eventually go degenerate themselves.)

    That Europeans themselves are a hybrid, and have as much IE ancestry as modern Indians, is not well-known or advertised. If it was, the theory would probably gain more acceptance in India.
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  133. Mr. Anon says:

    The thorniest, most fought-over question in Indian history is slowly but surely getting answered: did Indo-European language speakers, who called themselves Aryans, stream into India sometime around 2,000 BC – 1,500 BC….

    Well, we call then “Aryans”. They undoubtedly referred to themselves as “Dreamers”.

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  134. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @melanf

    Apparently, the ancient Indo-European speaking peoples who invaded India in those distant far-off days were, originally at least, closer genetic relations of such living populations as modern Ukrainians, Russians, Poles, Lithuanians etc than to modern Indians.
     
    Surviving on the border of Europe a relic of the ancient "Aryans" - the Ossetians
    http://www.balto-slavica.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=16468

    Surviving on the border of Europe a relic of the ancient “Aryans” – the Ossetians

    Did you check their genetics?
    From what I’ve read they’re not R1a dominant, just linguistically Iranian/Aryan – genetically closer to Caucasus populations.

    If I remember correctly, the purest Aryans R1a were Bengali upper castes – Brahmins and Kshatriyas.

    Others where these genes are dominant would be
    1. Other upper castes in India and Nepal
    2. Uzbeks
    3. Tajiks
    4. Pashtuns of Afghanistan
    5. Slavs (except non-Slovenian Southern Slavs. So Melania is all good :D )
    6. Balts

    Greeks and Scandinavins also have more of the genes than most other Europeans.

    Funnily, the ‘purest Aryans’ in Europe are Poles. Yes. Poles, mr. Hitler :D

    You can see that isolated Iranian speakers in Pamiri mountains still often look European:

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  135. whoever says: • Website
    @Pat Boyle
    Anthropology seems to be retreating from 'niceness'. About thirty years ago we deciphered Mayan artifacts and learned a bit about what they thought of themselves. It was shocking. Mainstream academic anthropology had convinced everyone that the Mayan were peaceable philosopher-priests who spent most of their time contemplating nature and the beauty of the forest.

    Complete nonsense. Similarly there has been a strong preference for imagining almost all population changes as not invasions but rather the spread of modernizing innovations by cooperative peaceable farmers. But again new evidence makes it appear that ancient man was violent and aggressive just as we had formerly suspected.

    Less and less about early life on this planet appears to have been truly 'nice'.

    It was Raymond Dart who said long ago, as recorded in C.K. Brain’s The Hunters or the Hunted? that “it was the ape-man’s instinct for violence, and his successful development of lethal weapons, that gave him his dominance in the animal world from the very beginning. Those instincts are with us today.”

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  136. @Clyde
    Just based on looks you have many of the upper caste Indians who look like Persians. Looks wise they are interchangeable. Millions of wacky-Pakis too who in normal sunlight can pass for Italian but not Czechoslovak.

    Depends. I think there’s a small amount of overlap between the most swarthy&ethnic of the Italians and the lightest of the South Asians (Indians/Pakis).

    For example, Fredo Corleone (the guy with the receding hairline) sort of could pass as Paki.

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    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    What about Carl Paladino?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PS2Xl1M0k88
    , @guest
    John Cazale was plain weird-looking. For what it's worth, I think he was half-Irish/half-Italian.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Not so for Italians from the mainland generally. You are talking about Sicilians, I think. As you know, there is a BIG difference between Sicilian genetic background and mainland italian genetic background.

    People with substantial ancestry from Italy but no known ancestors from Sicily, like me, tend to have zero subSaharan African genes, almost zero North African genes, and almost zero Middle Eastern aka Arab or Sephardic Jewish genes. That's the result from 23andme for me and my mother, who is the Italian one, and for two other cousins on that side who took the same test.

    Sicilians, by contrast, quite commonly have five to ten percent Arab genes and sometimes more than a few percent of North African. I'm sure that has nothing to do with the seemingly even higher levels of unjustified violence and corruption in Sicily vis a vis the mainland....

    Malta is an interesting mixture, as well. Brief OT note: Maltese may be the only substantially-Arabic language in the world that uses our (Roman) alphabet.

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  137. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Hindoo
    I don't understand why abject Euro-Whites suffer from this OCD about "Aryans".

    Instead of such useless endeavours such as finding correlation between penis size and IQ, Euro-Whites would do better to find a cure for Wewuzkangzosis pathologicalis.

    At least success in the latter would mean a few less world wars.

    Speaking of IQ, the Proto-Indo-Europeans (and their bronze age progeny) were unmitigated savages who didn't have the IQ to build any civilization anywhere.

    "Aryans" became Kangz because of the diligence of Dravidians of the Indus Valley.
    Persians became Kangz because of the diligence of Elamites.
    Romans became Kangz because of the diligence of Etruscans.
    Greeks became Kangz because of the diligence of Minoans.

    Wherever Indo-Euros couldn't find a civilizations to parasitise, they remained in their barbaric state of existence, just like the Celts and Teutons and Slavs and Tocharians.

    They were the ultimate welfare-parasites of their time. Much like Turks in Germany today.

    But hey, Turkics were even better than "Aryan" Indo-Euros in the invasion business. Look at what the Oghuz Turkmens did to Anatolia. This is the same thing they'll do to Germany.

    Perhaps then, in a not so distant future, Euro-Whites would masturbate thinking of their connection to Genghiz and Hulagu, just as the other commenters are masturbating now to "Aryans".

    In fact, Hungarians have already started fapping themselves.

    Seems that Mitra and Varuna are not without a sense of irony.

    The great historian William McNeil called this “macro-parasitism.” The Indo-European civilizations were based on proto-IE “macro-parasites” parasitizing more sophisticated settled cultures like the Etruscans, Minoans, Dravidians, etc.

    What you describe has its roots in 19th century Romanticism, nationalism, and German scholarship. With northern European countries becoming industrially and economically dominant, there was a strong interest in developing an equally prestigious folk history and origin story.

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    • Replies: @Hindoo
    Much obliged, my learned friend.

    I better read up this fellow.

    Maybe you and him are the last of those Euro-Whites whose most noble Solutrean bloodlines wasn't crappified by Indo-European sewage.

    I wish you herds of milky cows and a bountiful harvest.
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  138. rec1man says:

    India has a 3 tier or 4 or even 5 tier or 6 tier reservation system

    Scheduled Tribes ( forest tribes, further sub-divided in North East India between Mongoloid and Non-Mongoloid Tribes )
    Indian Mongoloids score fairly low in public exams

    Untouchables ( Dalit / Scheduled Tribe ) further divided into leather workers and Maha-dalits ( shit cleaners )

    Other Backward Caste ( dominant kulak peasant ), further sub-divided into Most Backward caste

    General category ( upper caste )

    70% of Muslims are given Other Backward Caste and compete with peasant hindus
    North east Mongoloid Xtians are given Scheduled Tribe category
    Untouchable Xtians are given Other Backward Caste status and compete with peasant hindus

    In many South Indian states, a brahmin who converts to Xtianity can get Other Backward Caste quota ( at the cost of being socially boycotted in the arranged marriage system )

    The economic divide is not south-north, it is rather east-west –
    North-west states like Punjab and Gujurat do very well, whereas North east states like Bihar and South-east states like Odisha are very poor

    Kerala does well due to gulf remittances and will collapse if oil prices collapse

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  139. @JohnnyWalker123
    Depends. I think there's a small amount of overlap between the most swarthy&ethnic of the Italians and the lightest of the South Asians (Indians/Pakis).

    For example, Fredo Corleone (the guy with the receding hairline) sort of could pass as Paki.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DZNDEqcSi0

    What about Carl Paladino?

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  140. I’m no trained geneticist, yet it boggles my mind how credulously reliant in matrilineal genes professional scientists have been, when they of all people really ought to know better: when populations move about, collide, mingle, and so on, the victorious and successful males claim the females of the vanquished and marginalised. That the genes of the marginalised or vanquished persist in the female line tells us nothing meaningful about these collisions of peoples. The pretense it ever did belies willful omission of material facts and deceit, presumably to to support the Narrative regarding miscegenation, multiculturalism, ans ao on; these people cannot credibly claim not to have known better.

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  141. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Incidentally, since the great Greek and Roman ruins and relics today are white marble and stone, we assume that’s what they looked like originally. But they were actually quite bright and colorful, as they were painted in the garish fashion that we see in Hindu art.

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  142. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    India doesn’t follow the simple pattern that tends to obtain elsewhere with respect to things like IQ. South Indian Dravidians with very dark skin and Caucasoid features tend to have the highest IQs. Those long names with many syllables are Dravidian names, like Ramanujan. While the groups in the northeast towards Pakistan with lighter skin and Indo-European names tend to have lower IQs.

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    • Replies: @rec1man
    Ramanujam is a Sanskrit word and he was a South Indian Brahmin, ( Tamil Brahmin Iyengar )

    Per Razib, South Indian Brahmins can be modeled as a blend of 75% North Indian Brahmin and 25% Forward Caste Dravidian
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  143. @neutral
    The real question now, that I am sure is on a lot of minds, is what exactly did these Aryans look like ? Did they look like something that would have satisfied Third Reich idealists or would they have looked more like people look like in Iran ?

    Most likely, Iran.

    If you look at northern Indians, they look nothing like Germans or Euros. Their appearance, however, is often pretty similar to what you might find in Iran or Afghanistan. My guess is that the
    Pathans might be a pretty good representation of what Indo-Europeans looked like.

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  144. guest says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Depends. I think there's a small amount of overlap between the most swarthy&ethnic of the Italians and the lightest of the South Asians (Indians/Pakis).

    For example, Fredo Corleone (the guy with the receding hairline) sort of could pass as Paki.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DZNDEqcSi0

    John Cazale was plain weird-looking. For what it’s worth, I think he was half-Irish/half-Italian.

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    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Pakis are weird looking too. Probably due to all the caste in-marriage, cousin marriage, and other forms of inbreeding.
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  145. @candid_observer
    You make a good point about the need for Affirmative Action telling the real story here.

    If indeed all castes do effectively equally well on relevant tests, why is there any need of Affirmative Action? And even if it's only one test of cognitive ability on which there's full parity, such as Raven's, why not implement "Affirmative Action" by insisting that that test, or something akin to it, be the test to determine placement in colleges and in jobs?

    This is also one of the arguments against the claim that blacks in England are doing every bit as well as whites academically. Why is it considered such an embarrassing problem for elite universities such as Cambridge and Oxford that the numbers of blacks are so low if, in fact, blacks are doing ever bit as well on the relevant tests?

    Really, the very existence and necessity of Affirmative Action tells the tale. It demonstrates the reality of the situation, despite the heroic attempts at obfuscation (if such attempts can be heroic).

    Most likely because there are significant differences in wealth among the social classes in India. Since India (like China) places a huge emphasis on cram schools, my guess is that the upper caste parents can afford a very extreme degreee of Tiger Parenting. So the lower castes want affirmative action to help them compete.

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    • Replies: @guest
    "the lower castes want affirmative action to help them compete"

    Or to avoid competing, as it were.
    , @anon
    I looked at the entrance test questions; they are not exactly crammable.

    e.g. from JEE:
    Twenty meters of wire is available for
    fencing off a flower-bed in the form of a
    circular sector. Then the maximum area
    (in sq. m) of the flower-bed, is :
    (1) 10
    (2) 25
    (3) 30
    (4) 12.5

    from SAT:
    Aaron is staying at a hotel that charges $99.95 per night plus tax for a room. A tax of 8% is applied to the room rate, and an additional onetime untaxed fee of $5.00 is charged by the hotel. Which of the following represents Aaron’s total charge, in dollars, for staying x nights?
    A
    left parenthesis 99.5 plus 0.08 x right parenthesis plus 5
    B
    1.08 open parentheses 99.95 x close parentheses plus 5
    C
    1.08 open parentheses 99.95 x plus 5 close parentheses
    D
    1.08 open parentheses 99.95 plus 5 close parentheses x
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  146. @AaronB
    I never understood why linguistic similarities allowed us to conclude similarity of race. All it seems to suggest is proximity, interaction, and influence. Lot of different races in the same area spoke the same or similar languages.

    Its like future archeologists, after the Catastrophe, will conclude that people in Hong Kong and England were part of some great original race.

    Maybe I'm missing something. Can someone explain why it isn't a leap to posit an Indo-Aryan race based on linguistic similarity?

    Its like future archeologists, after the Catastrophe, will conclude that people in Hong Kong and England were part of some great original race.

    Hah hah. An even stronger example: Frenchmen and Haitians.

    But to answer your question: the conclusion to draw from far-flung linguistic similarity is not that all speakers of a language family are genetically close now, or even 2000 years ago: only that there was some point, possibly long ago, when they were genetically similar.

    If future archeologists discover French inscriptions in Haiti and in France, there’s a risk they’ll conclude that French originated in Haiti and somehow spread to Europe. But much other evidence will point the other way.

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  147. guest says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Most likely because there are significant differences in wealth among the social classes in India. Since India (like China) places a huge emphasis on cram schools, my guess is that the upper caste parents can afford a very extreme degreee of Tiger Parenting. So the lower castes want affirmative action to help them compete.

    “the lower castes want affirmative action to help them compete”

    Or to avoid competing, as it were.

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  148. In 1966, Chopra looked at test scores and grades by caste. Here’s what he found.

    Grades

    Brahmin: 242.6
    Kshatriya: 247.5
    Vaishya: 259
    Shudra: 241.5
    India Average: 241.9

    Cognitive test scores

    Brahmin: 38.8
    Kshatriya: 39.4
    Vaishya: 41.8
    Shudra: 35.7
    India Average: 38.6

    Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.

    Which is similar to what Ron Unz has been saying for years. Ron Unz has theorized that IQ scores are HIGHLY malleable and extremely influenced by socioeconomic status.

    Given the poverty of India and its extreme Tiger Parenting culture, my guess is that IQ&achivement are especially malleable in that country. So if there’s affirmative action for lower castes, that probably is due to their lower socioeconomic position and their inability to provide their children access to good nutrition and cram schools.

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    • Replies: @Sunbeam
    "Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.

    Which is similar to what Ron Unz has been saying for years. Ron Unz has theorized that IQ scores are HIGHLY malleable and extremely influenced by socioeconomic status.

    Given the poverty of India and its extreme Tiger Parenting culture, my guess is that IQ&achivement are especially malleable in that country. So if there’s affirmative action for lower castes, that probably is due to their lower socioeconomic position and their inability to provide their children access to good nutrition and cram schools."

    A cynic might theorize that anything is for sale in India - including whatever grade you'd like your kid to have on an exam.

    Maybe. But it's been noted many times on here regarding the Chinese "Cheating" culture. (Though is it cheating? Seems to me you have to buy into the honor of the whole thing and culture, instead of regarding a test as an obstacle to be overcome to get to a destination - by any means necessary.)

    My personal experience with Indians is that their morality in any given situation - is situational. Almost malleable you might say.
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  149. This is what Blessed Anne Catherine Emerich said in the first volume of her visions, among other things we have been and are being enlightened about.

    By the way, this reminds me of when DNA evidence affirmed the fundamental claim of The Book of the Taking of Ireland, written down circa 1000 AD, when it recounted the legend that the Irish race was founded by kings from Spain, and the closest genetic relatives of the Irish turned out not to be the Scots or the Welsh, but the Basques.

    Anywho, prophecies are only true in hindsight if they’re real, when the course of human events pearses a leash, and and the knowing con n’ ol lie.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Actually, that's all been very recently debunked by modern DNA research.

    About 10 years ago, before autosomal research on ancient DNA samples was undertaken, the theory that modern Basques are the closest relatives of the Irish gained credence due to the fact of shared y DNA.

    Now, the discovery and testing of 'Rathlin man' has overturned that. It now appears that the Irish are, in the main, the descendants of 'Rhenish' (ie from the lower Rhine area of Germany and the Netherlands) 'Bell Beaker groups.

    Apparently the shared r1b male haplolineage is not Iberian in origin but Into European from the east. Siberian not Iberian.
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  150. @candid_observer
    One can think about the call for Affirmative Action as being the unfakeable signal of a minority's real situation. If, indeed, a minority is doing every bit as well as others on a relevant metric, why should there ever be a need for Affirmative Action?

    This isn’t neccessarily correct.

    At the elite end of academic achievement, parental influence and environment matter a lot. Especially in countries with traditions of Tiger Parenting. So if an upper caste parent can afford an expensive tutor and a lower caste parent can’t afford a tutor, whose kid will do better (assuming equal IQ)?

    As Ron Unz has pointed out, the IQ scores of early 20th century Euro immigrants were about a standard deviation below the White mean. Now they’re about equal. Given that India is a much poorer and more unequal country than early 20th century America, I’m sure there is a very extreme degree of IQ depression.

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    • Replies: @gcochran
    " IQ scores of early 20th century Euro immigrants were about a standard deviation below the White mean."


    It's called learning English.
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  151. @matt
    This isn't all that "surprising" or "shocking" outside of India. The reason why it remains controversial in the subcontinent is because of the political priorities of right-wing Hindu nationalism. Unlike right-wing nationalists outside the continent, who often celebrate the Aryan conquerors, Hindu nationalists usually deny the Aryan invasions, since affirming their existence would make it much harder to claim that Abrahamic faiths like Islam and Christianity are "invasive", anti-Indian, foreign threats. If Indo-European speakers really did conquer the subcontinent, then pretty much everyone in India is a descendant of invaders, not just Muslims. That's why this article in The Hindu needs to preface its argument by pointing out how shocking it appears to be, and it's why there's so much pushback in the comments from Indian readers.

    Hindu nationalism isn't the only right-wing ideology refuted by these findings, incidentally. Modern HBD-infused Euro-American nationalism is in the same boat as its subcontinental counterpart, if for different reasons. Contrary to what 19th and 20th century figures like Schopenhauer, Nietzsche, Hitler, Rushton, and Lynn expected, there doesn't seem to be any correlation between caste and intelligence, even though, as this article observes, "the ANI [Ancestral North Indian; i.e., Aryan] ancestry [is] higher in traditionally upper caste and Indo-European speakers."

    This isn’t all that “surprising” or “shocking” outside of India. The reason why it remains controversial in the subcontinent is because of the political priorities of right-wing Hindu nationalism.

    Yup. Indians have lobbied the California Dept of Education, to scrub the Indo-European thing from the curricula. (They also don’t want schools to teach anything about castes.)

    Read about it here…

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_textbook_controversy_over_Hindu_history

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    • Replies: @Anonym
    That is one of the most pernicious things about open-bordersism. Pretty soon you can't say anything about anyone (in English) without offending someone, even if it is true. So you end up with public discussion that is polite to everyone but whites, and lacking in truth.
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  152. dearieme says:
    @Pat Boyle
    Anthropology seems to be retreating from 'niceness'. About thirty years ago we deciphered Mayan artifacts and learned a bit about what they thought of themselves. It was shocking. Mainstream academic anthropology had convinced everyone that the Mayan were peaceable philosopher-priests who spent most of their time contemplating nature and the beauty of the forest.

    Complete nonsense. Similarly there has been a strong preference for imagining almost all population changes as not invasions but rather the spread of modernizing innovations by cooperative peaceable farmers. But again new evidence makes it appear that ancient man was violent and aggressive just as we had formerly suspected.

    Less and less about early life on this planet appears to have been truly 'nice'.

    Any Briton who’s old enough (or Irishman too, presumably) will remember being taught that our ancestors had been headhunters. So he should have been inoculated against the nicey-nicey school.

    Were the anthropologists fools or knaves? Both, I dare say.

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  153. Anonym says:
    @matt

    Then why is [sic the most effected sic by the Flynn effect?
     
    That's an interesting question. Flynn thinks it has to do with the fact that Raven's is a measure of abstract thinking ability, and cultural priorities have shifted over the decades toward valuing abstract over concrete thought. In any case, Raven's gains over time don't change the results of factor analysis applied to Raven's scores at a given time, which Jensen summarizes in The g Factor (p. 38):

    When the Progressive Matrices test is factor analyzed along with a variety of other tests, it is typically among the two or three tests having the highest g loadings, usually around .80. Probably its most distinctive feature is its very low loadings on any factor other than g. Raven’s Progressive Matrices is often used as a “marker” test for Spearman’s g. That is, it is entered into a factor analysis with other tests of unknown factor composition, and if the Matrices has a high loading on the general factor of the matrix of unknown tests, its g loading serves as a standard by which the g loadings of the other tests in the battery can be evaluated. I have yet to see a factor analysis of any diverse collection of tests that includes Raven’s Matrices in which the Raven’s largest loading was found on any factor other than g.
     

    If you knew anything about India, you’d be skeptical of any claim to have tested representative samples of the population.
     
    It's hard to get representative data for the entire Indian population, but it's easier to get data for a particular state or region. I tracked down one of the studies (Chopra 1966), which gathered an N=1359 sample of high school students of four castes in both rural and urban districts of Lucknow.

    In any case, if you'd like some more "real world" evidence, you can take a look at the Human Development Index scores for Indian states. If you look at the maps at Wikipedia, you can see that the southern (more Dravidian) states have higher HDI than the northern (more Indo-European and Middle Eastern) states, with the southernmost state, Kerala, having the highest HDI of all. The same holds for fertility rates, which are of course correlated with IQ.

    What we do know is that India has a massive affirmative action program for the lower castes in its otherwise meritocratic examination-based university admissions.
     
    It has a "reservation" system for "scheduled castes", meaning the lowest castes. If you look at the evidence I cited, the scheduled castes actually do score somewhat lower than the other castes on cognitive tests, although not on non-verbal tests like Raven's. Moreover, they get lower marks in school. This shouldn't be surprising on either an environmentalist or a hereditarian hypothesis (although hereditarianism would predict a caste gap on Raven's). Moreover, hereditarianism would predict, not only a gap between the scheduled and non-scheduled castes, but other caste gaps as well, in favor of the higher castes. The evidence I cited above, on the contrary, shows a decline in IQ and school marks from Brahmins to Vaishya (and not much of a gap between Brahmins and Scheduled Caste).

    Since the scheduled castes do show worst performance at least on verbal tests, that would be enough to translate into worse socioeconomic performance, and thus necessitate affirmative action. What should be surprising to hereditarians is that (A) the scheduled castes do not appear to do worse on non-verbal and highly g-loaded tests like Raven's, and (B) outside of the scheduled castes, the caste gaps go in the opposite of the predicted direction.

    Two paragraphs in a book is not “scientific evidence.”
     
    I don't know why you're so hung up on the number of paragraphs, but in those paragraphs you'll find four citations, one of which is a literature review with many more citations.

    So you are not a PC snowflake then? Humor me and let me know your estimates for genotypical IQ for the following groups: NE Asians, Ashkenazi, white Americans, black Americans, SE Asians, Pakistanis.
     
    The notion of "genotypical IQ" makes no sense, but I can say that at present the balance of evidence suggests that it is more likely than not that, in the same environment, white and black Americans would develop the same phenotypic IQ. Look through my comment history if you want to know why I think that. I don't know enough about the other populations you mention to make an informed judgment.

    The notion of “genotypical IQ” makes no sense, but I can say that at present the balance of evidence suggests that it is more likely than not that, in the same environment, white and black Americans would develop the same phenotypic IQ. Look through my comment history if you want to know why I think that. I don’t know enough about the other populations you mention to make an informed judgment.

    That was some pro questioning by Lot to bring up this. Props to you, Lot.

    Since the 1960s there has been all manner of attempts and billions of dollars spent to level “the gap”, and it has been a dismal failure. We are expected to believe that in all the sub-Saharan cultures around the world, including the ones where there are only SSAs, that it is all the case of the environment dragging the black man down, and that it is only the environment of the white man that is the difference? Same schools, same workplaces… it must be terrible black parenting to blame. If only the blacks had that magical parenting touch of the white man! Maybe it even starts in the womb. But not one moment earlier than conception!

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    • Replies: @matt

    Since the 1960s there has been all manner of attempts and billions of dollars spent to level “the gap”, and it has been a dismal failure.
     
    There's a good deal of evidence that the gap closed considerably during the 20th century, though I don't think that has much to do with educational spending since the Great Society.

    We are expected to believe that in all the sub-Saharan cultures around the world, including the ones where there are only SSAs, that it is all the case of the environment dragging the black man down, and that it is only the environment of the white man that is the difference
     
    Given that sub-Saharan Africa is rife with parasites and nutritional problems, and sub-Saharan populations everywhere else started as slave communities, I'm not sure why it should be a priori surprising that sub-Saharan African populations all around the world would have depressed average IQs. In any case, it may not be universally true, anyway.

    If only the blacks had that magical parenting touch of the white man! Maybe it even starts in the womb. But not one moment earlier than conception!
     
    If you have some actual data you'd like to discuss, feel free to present it. If you have only slogans and catchphrases, you might want to stay silent.
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  154. Anonym says:
    @International Jew

    This isn’t all that “surprising” or “shocking” outside of India. The reason why it remains controversial in the subcontinent is because of the political priorities of right-wing Hindu nationalism.

     

    Yup. Indians have lobbied the California Dept of Education, to scrub the Indo-European thing from the curricula. (They also don't want schools to teach anything about castes.)

    Read about it here...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_textbook_controversy_over_Hindu_history

    That is one of the most pernicious things about open-bordersism. Pretty soon you can’t say anything about anyone (in English) without offending someone, even if it is true. So you end up with public discussion that is polite to everyone but whites, and lacking in truth.

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  155. Well, it does seem that some aspects of Gimbutas’ Kurgan Hypothesis is correct:

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Marija_Gimbutas

    Meanwhile:

    David French‏@DavidAFrench
    Anyone on the “right” who defends the BS that went down at the play tonight is showing themselves to be tribalist, not conservative.

    Did he mean (((tribalist)))?

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  156. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Tim Howells
    There's an interesting lecture on the Aryan influence in India by the great yogi Vivekananda in 1896:

    http://ramakrishnavivekananda.info/vivekananda/volume_9/lectures_and_discourses/history_of_the_aryan_race.htm

    He praises the original work by Welsh judge/scholar William Jones, and German scholarship in starting to shed light on the subject. Lots of interesting tidbits:


    Indian Rajas go and perform Mohammedan ceremonies and enter Mohammedan mosques, although [some] Mohammedans took the first opportunity to kill a number of "the heathens".
     
    Where "[some]" is a politically correct editorial insertion. Some things never change.

    The peculiarity you find is that the Semitic races and the Egyptians try to preserve the dead bodies, while the Aryans try to destroy them. The Greeks, the Germans, the Romans — your ancestors before they became Christians — used to burn the dead. It was only when Charlemagne made you Christians with the sword — and when you refused, [he] cut off a few hundred heads, and the rest jumped into the water — that burying came here. You see at once the metaphysical significance of burning the dead. The burying of the dead (Preserving the dead by the burying of the body.) can only remain when there is no idea of the soul, and the body is all. At best there came the idea later on that this very body will have another lease of life, after so many years — mummies will come out and begin to walk the streets again.

    But with the Aryans the idea was from the first that the soul is not the body, but would live on. There are some old hymns in the Rig-Veda: when the bodies are burnt they say, "Take him gently, purify him, give him a bright body, take him to the land where the fathers live — where there is no more sorrow and where there is joy forever". (Rig-Veda 10.16.4.)
     

    I’ve always thought cremation and scattering was the only really dignified way to have one’s shell disposed of, but I never knew why.

    This makes sense now.

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  157. @Johann Ricke

    The reason for the difference in mtDNA and Y-DNA data is obvious in hindsight: there was strong sex bias in Bronze Age migrations. In other words, those who migrated were predominantly male and, therefore, those gene flows do not really show up in the mtDNA data.
     
    Warriors do tend to be male.

    Smash The Patriarchy! I am Wonder Woman, and I approve this message. };^D

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  158. Sunbeam says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    In 1966, Chopra looked at test scores and grades by caste. Here's what he found.

    Grades

    Brahmin: 242.6
    Kshatriya: 247.5
    Vaishya: 259
    Shudra: 241.5
    India Average: 241.9

    Cognitive test scores

    Brahmin: 38.8
    Kshatriya: 39.4
    Vaishya: 41.8
    Shudra: 35.7
    India Average: 38.6

    Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.

    Which is similar to what Ron Unz has been saying for years. Ron Unz has theorized that IQ scores are HIGHLY malleable and extremely influenced by socioeconomic status.

    Given the poverty of India and its extreme Tiger Parenting culture, my guess is that IQ&achivement are especially malleable in that country. So if there's affirmative action for lower castes, that probably is due to their lower socioeconomic position and their inability to provide their children access to good nutrition and cram schools.

    “Das and Khurana found that socioeconomic status was the most important variable impacting test scores. Caste differences were not significant on non-verbal tests like Ravens, but were larger on verbal tests.

    Which is similar to what Ron Unz has been saying for years. Ron Unz has theorized that IQ scores are HIGHLY malleable and extremely influenced by socioeconomic status.

    Given the poverty of India and its extreme Tiger Parenting culture, my guess is that IQ&achivement are especially malleable in that country. So if there’s affirmative action for lower castes, that probably is due to their lower socioeconomic position and their inability to provide their children access to good nutrition and cram schools.”

    A cynic might theorize that anything is for sale in India – including whatever grade you’d like your kid to have on an exam.

    Maybe. But it’s been noted many times on here regarding the Chinese “Cheating” culture. (Though is it cheating? Seems to me you have to buy into the honor of the whole thing and culture, instead of regarding a test as an obstacle to be overcome to get to a destination – by any means necessary.)

    My personal experience with Indians is that their morality in any given situation – is situational. Almost malleable you might say.

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  159. @Tim Howells
    There's an interesting lecture on the Aryan influence in India by the great yogi Vivekananda in 1896:

    http://ramakrishnavivekananda.info/vivekananda/volume_9/lectures_and_discourses/history_of_the_aryan_race.htm

    He praises the original work by Welsh judge/scholar William Jones, and German scholarship in starting to shed light on the subject. Lots of interesting tidbits:


    Indian Rajas go and perform Mohammedan ceremonies and enter Mohammedan mosques, although [some] Mohammedans took the first opportunity to kill a number of "the heathens".
     
    Where "[some]" is a politically correct editorial insertion. Some things never change.

    The peculiarity you find is that the Semitic races and the Egyptians try to preserve the dead bodies, while the Aryans try to destroy them. The Greeks, the Germans, the Romans — your ancestors before they became Christians — used to burn the dead. It was only when Charlemagne made you Christians with the sword — and when you refused, [he] cut off a few hundred heads, and the rest jumped into the water — that burying came here. You see at once the metaphysical significance of burning the dead. The burying of the dead (Preserving the dead by the burying of the body.) can only remain when there is no idea of the soul, and the body is all. At best there came the idea later on that this very body will have another lease of life, after so many years — mummies will come out and begin to walk the streets again.

    But with the Aryans the idea was from the first that the soul is not the body, but would live on. There are some old hymns in the Rig-Veda: when the bodies are burnt they say, "Take him gently, purify him, give him a bright body, take him to the land where the fathers live — where there is no more sorrow and where there is joy forever". (Rig-Veda 10.16.4.)
     

    “Take him to the land where the fathers live.” Take me down to Panama City…

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  160. BenKenobi says:
    @bored identity
    Oi, boy .


    bored identity can Godwinize this forum all day along:

    "Ya'll Do Know who also was proponent of the idea that ancient swastika-luvin' Aryans were syncopated-sanskrtitizing conquerors of Euro-DNAsian geopolitical realm?"

    In conclusion:

    Bret Stephens' haploid cesspool is on the Wrong Side of Science.

    Why did you randomly start posting in the third person?

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    • Replies: @bored identity
    Hmmm, good question.

    I'm afraid that I'm gonna have to check with bored identity about what's his official position on that issue.

    Meanwhile, bored identity really needs to stop with that ridiculously ridiculous binge watching of Fight Club.
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  161. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Sunbeam
    "Aryans” became Kangz because of the diligence of Dravidians of the Indus Valley."

    You are making a funny, but while I am unclear on some of your examples, I'd like to hear any input from anyone (I've seen some Indian posters for example on here) who knows much about the Dravidians.

    From stray things I've read the Dravidians had advanced agriculture for the era, had massive cities for the era, and had Roman level plumbing (1000+ years before Rome?).

    Whereas concerning the Aryans... somewhere I read a description of them with their key features listed:

    1) They liked horses.
    2) They really liked horses.
    3) They drank milk
    4) They really liked to fight.
    5) They really, really liked to fight.
    6) They didn't like to work
    7) They really liked [insert yourself here] making you do their work for them.

    and this is more speculative,

    8) They were kinda short guys, maybe even kind of swarthy, with black hair. Not sure where that one came from, some kind of thing mocking Nazis and blondicism I guess. You know Hitler himself was actually the phenotype Aryan, not the guy on the posters. Maybe, maybe not.
    9) Oh yeah, and that whole language thing.

    Anyway, my understanding is from this site that India has some really high IQ people in the upper castes (descended from Aryans?), and a gigantic mass of the lower IQ peoples that are the grist of this site.

    But at the time of this invasion, it sure seems to me that it was one of those cookie cutter horse nomad invasions of a more advanced culture we've seen time and again in history.

    Any Indians or knowledgeable people on the subject got any input on this?

    I’m a South Indian Tamil Brahmin. Other South Indian castes consider us Aryan, North Indians consider us Dravidian, and my community really is sort of in the middle. We speak a Sanskritized (i.e Aryanized) register of Tamil (a Dravidian language). We are lighter-skinned than many other South Indian castes, but darker-skinned than most North Indians. Genetic tests confirm we are closer to West Eurasians than other South Indian castes, but not as close to West Eurasians as most North Indian castes.

    I do think Dravidian Brahmins have evidence for higher intellectual achievement than most other communities, both Aryan and Dravidian. Tamil Brahmins form only 0.2% of India’s population, but three of the five Indian Nobel prize winners in science/economics come from that community. The former World Chess Champion Vishwanathan Anand is a Tamil Brahmin. Google CEO Sundar Pichai and Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella are both Dravidian Brahmins.

    My personal hypothesis is that this is a result of a founder effect – high-achieving Aryan Brahmins from the North came to the South as priests and teachers, just like high-achieving Indians travel to the US today. And then they intermarried with pre-existing intellectual classes in the native Dravidian society, which was fairly advanced in its own way.

    There is no convincing evidence that the Indus Valley civilization was Dravidian. We have little idea of what language the Indus Valley people spoke. There are several findings that suggest cultural continuity with Hinduism, though, including veneration of fig trees, bulls and some yoga poses.

    There is little in modern India to give credence to theories of Aryan supremacy, though. The Dravidian South Indian states outperform the majority of the Aryan-speaking states of the North in pretty much every social and economic indicator. Much of this might be because of Muslim invaders wiping out the human capital in the North over the last thousand years, like Genghis Khan wiped out the human capital of Baghdad, but it’s hard to say for certain.

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    • Replies: @K
    read comments above yours about IQ. Not every IQ is because of genes. Brahmins have a culture that stresses learning and memory. Brahmins have studied prayers for millenia while other caste didnt 'study' anything. So their brains have become more academically oriented than other castes.
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  162. @Brother Ma
    Like Iranians of course. Aryans are the original white people /Caucasians . So the stereotype white person is closer to a Greek,Armenian or Iranian.
    Hitler simply blathered on about Aryans needing to be blue eyed and blonde ALL thetime. In fact ,his conception is simply the Nordic subtype . Have you ever seen real Germans? Hitler and his propaganda minister were so dark they could pass for southern Greeks or Italians. Still white /Caucasian but not Of Nordic subtype.

    The Kalash in Pakistan and the green -eyed girl of National Geographic cover fame are all examples of people who are originally Aryan from those original invasions or of the Nordic subtype frpm Alexander,s Macedonian Northern Greek settlers. In Iran today you still find many blue eyed blonde types of this Nordic subtype but to conclude: Iranian.

    “Hitler simply blathered on about Aryans needing to be blue eyed and blonde ALL the time.”

    While Hitler certainly blathered about Aryans, as far as I know, he never bothered defining the term (other than as non-Jewish), possibly because, as you mention, he and many of his henchmen didn’t resemble the Nordic stereotype. Or maybe he was being politic, as he made political and military alliances with people who were Southern European, Balkan, and even Arab and Indian.

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    • Replies: @nebulafox
    And non-Slavic.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
    , @Druid
    The whole German Aryan thing is nonsense! It was actually the French at the time of the war that started this whole German Aryan thing!
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  163. @kihowi
    That reminds me of the best question to ask a feminist: When in history have two armies of women fought each other?

    When in history have two armies of women fought each other?

    In modern times, it happens quite often.

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  164. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Steve Sailer
    India strikes me, as it struck Nietzsche, as the single most far right civilization. Of course, he admired that. Me ...

    Homogeneity and cultural dominance breed leftism, like in White European countries like Sweden. When your group is not dominant, OTOH, natural selection favors insularity and reactionary ideas – like in British Muslims and in the American Wild West, and in Indian Hindus over the last 1000 years.

    When Hindus held power in India, until 1000 AD, they came up with the most thoroughgoing forms of leftism, which foreshadowed modern progressive movements in many ways.

    One such movement, among many others that developed in that era, was Buddhism, with its emphasis on individualism, atheism, social atomization and nihilism. Even within Hinduism, the Tantra and Goddess cults which dominated during that period can hardly be described as reactionary.

    But then natural selection worked its magic, and the most reactionary, patriarchal, family-forming cults won out.

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    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Saxon
    Introduced heterogeneity is why what happened to Sweden did. You didn't mention of course how Sweden came to "embrace" (totally organically I'm sure, and not the result of a top-down coup) the influx of millions of garbage-tier foreigners -- who owns most of Swedish media? The Bonnier group, not Swedish people. Who was pushing these ideas in the 1960s when Sweden has a leader that was saying their homogeneity is the reason for their prosperity? Well obviously you will find some rather shocking coincidences if you look into this, which match up with the coincidences in every other country being invaded by brown foreigners right now.

    Also, "British Muslims" don't exist. They are not British people. They are parasitical racially alien invaders and the only reason they aren't being slaughtered in the streets after all of these atrocities they've committed is a treasonous establishment protecting them.
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  165. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Steve Sailer
    Aryan-ness was going to be a big theme in John Huston's version of Kipling's The Man Who Would Be King -- Daniel Dravot argues that the Kafiristanis can become as civilized as the Europeans they resemble, while Peachy Carnehan doesn't trust them -- but they wound up having to shoot the movie in Morocco with a lot of dusky extras, so they used Michael Caine's dark Indian wife as Roxana.

    It’s interesting to note that the Dravidian states of Southern India outperform Aryan North Indian states by a wide margin on most indicators. I can’t state with certainty that I’ve noticed any intellectual differences between the two populations, but then again, what do I know.

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  166. Daniel H says:
    @Narrenspeise
    Northern India was a relatively populous place at the time of the Aryan invasion, so it will likely have taken a substantial number of invaders. If these were all or mostly male Aryans, as it appears (not surprisingly), what happened to the women left behind, actually? Did the men that stayed with them take on more than one wife, or at least impregnate more than one each, did the women stay single and childless, did they import men from elsewhere, did they themselves emigrate elsewhere? Were the Aryans pastoralists and could the women take on the tasks of the men who left?

    Such male invasions happend many times in human history. I would like to know more about the history of the women left behind. Might be rather interesting. Any good links anyone?

    >>Northern India was a relatively populous place at the time of the Aryan invasion, so it will likely have taken a substantial number of invaders

    Only 300 or so Spanish warriors conquered the heavily populated Aztec empire.

    Pizarro overthrew the massive Inca empire with 200 or so warriors.

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  167. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Just for context, The Hindu is India’s most left-wing newspaper. The author of the article appears to be a member of the Christian minority, which is often accused of trying to play up differences between Indian populations (there’s even a popular book about it -

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_India).

    I’m not criticizing the claims made in the article, I do believe there was an Aryan migration into India. But I doubt this author provides an unbiased view of the scientific evidence. The last line, “We are all immigrants”, sort of gives an idea of where he’s going with this.

    It is the equivalent of an article on American population history written by the Muslim Reza Aslan in the Washington Post.

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  168. Daniel H says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Romans were Etruscans for all practical purposes. The fighting man is valorized for a good reason, as it is closely tied to what was needed to survive and expand in an agricultural society; and Europeans indeed extended basic respect to Muslim invaders when they had to fight for their gains even as far as back the Song of Roland.

    Its one thing to respect an enemy, its another thing to welcome invasion without resistance.

    Anyway, grand pacifism is ridiculous. Its what has led to the modern world.

    >>Romans were Etruscans for all practical purposes.

    Where on earth do you get that idea? From my limited reading of Roman History, the Romans were quite aware that the Etruscans were a quite different, bizzare people. Yes, there is the curious fact that for generations Etruscan kings did rule Romans, but Etruscans did not rule Romans. Strange. Anyway, the Romans got fed up with Etruscans and kings in general and sent them both packing.

    Etruscans may have been a pre-Indo European people. Who knows?

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    • Replies: @Frau Katze
    The upper crust Romans copied the Etruscans.

    The Latin alphabet is the Greek alphabet, filtered through the Etruscans.

    For example, Etruscan did not distinguish between voiced gamma and unvoiced kappa. They used the third letter of the Greek alphabet, tipped on its side, for both.

    The Romans copied, pronouncing "C" as kappa. Then someone noticed they now had two letters (C and K) for the same sound but nothing for the voiced gamma.

    The method that involved the least disruption was to create a new letter, adding a bit to "C" to create "G".

    The existence of both C and K has been a pain in the neck for the many languages using the Latin alphabet.

    The Romans copied the Etruscan naming system too, with praenomens, cognomens, etc.

    The IE technique was simply "John son of Harold".
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  169. @Hindoo
    I don't understand why abject Euro-Whites suffer from this OCD about "Aryans".

    Instead of such useless endeavours such as finding correlation between penis size and IQ, Euro-Whites would do better to find a cure for Wewuzkangzosis pathologicalis.

    At least success in the latter would mean a few less world wars.

    Speaking of IQ, the Proto-Indo-Europeans (and their bronze age progeny) were unmitigated savages who didn't have the IQ to build any civilization anywhere.

    "Aryans" became Kangz because of the diligence of Dravidians of the Indus Valley.
    Persians became Kangz because of the diligence of Elamites.
    Romans became Kangz because of the diligence of Etruscans.
    Greeks became Kangz because of the diligence of Minoans.

    Wherever Indo-Euros couldn't find a civilizations to parasitise, they remained in their barbaric state of existence, just like the Celts and Teutons and Slavs and Tocharians.

    They were the ultimate welfare-parasites of their time. Much like Turks in Germany today.

    But hey, Turkics were even better than "Aryan" Indo-Euros in the invasion business. Look at what the Oghuz Turkmens did to Anatolia. This is the same thing they'll do to Germany.

    Perhaps then, in a not so distant future, Euro-Whites would masturbate thinking of their connection to Genghiz and Hulagu, just as the other commenters are masturbating now to "Aryans".

    In fact, Hungarians have already started fapping themselves.

    Seems that Mitra and Varuna are not without a sense of irony.

    Caucasians are not a monolithic group, and the Caucasians of western Europe are different to the pastoral Caucasians of Afghanistan, Iran, Caucasus, etc. As Nicolas Wade points out, pastoralists in general tend to be quite strong, aggressive, and not particularly bright or consciousness. This applies to both Caucasian pastoralists like Chechens and Asian pastoralists like Mongolians. That’s because they come from semi-nomadic tribes that eat meat and diary, live in areas with few towns and cities, and regularly engage in territorial disputes. In contrast, people from settled crop farming societies tend to be smaller (in most cases) and more docile.

    North European Caucasians with a violent reputation (like Vikings and highland Celts) are kind of a hybrid group with some pastoral traits and some traits of settled farmer/trader societies.

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  170. snorlax says:
    @candid_observer
    You make a good point about the need for Affirmative Action telling the real story here.

    If indeed all castes do effectively equally well on relevant tests, why is there any need of Affirmative Action? And even if it's only one test of cognitive ability on which there's full parity, such as Raven's, why not implement "Affirmative Action" by insisting that that test, or something akin to it, be the test to determine placement in colleges and in jobs?

    This is also one of the arguments against the claim that blacks in England are doing every bit as well as whites academically. Why is it considered such an embarrassing problem for elite universities such as Cambridge and Oxford that the numbers of blacks are so low if, in fact, blacks are doing ever bit as well on the relevant tests?

    Really, the very existence and necessity of Affirmative Action tells the tale. It demonstrates the reality of the situation, despite the heroic attempts at obfuscation (if such attempts can be heroic).

    You and Lot are generally correct that the presence of affirmative action tells the whole story, but I would special-case India. Casteism, “Brahmin privilege” and so forth in India really is what SJWs imagine “racism” and “white privilege” to be in America and Europe.

    FWIW, my guess is Indian IQs do increase with caste, mainly because I’d expect poverty to cause r-selection and affluence to cause K-selection. The IQ numbers for high-caste Indians-in-India are probably artificially depressed because so many high-IQ, high-caste Indians emigrate.

    Read More
    • Replies: @snorlax
    High-caste Indians-in-India also often adhere to vegetarian diets with very poor nutritional characteristics (no protein, <1600 calories a day), which would lower their IQs relative to lower castes who eat more nutritious non-vegetarian diets. When vegetarian Indians emigrate, they're likely to either give up the vegetarianism (by the second generation anyway), or switch to Western-style vegetarian diets with much better nutritional characteristics (lots of tofu).

    Higher-caste Indians are also quite a bit more resistant to giving up Hindu practices that are harmful to (largely, due to segregation, their own) public health (defecating outside instead of in toilets being the big one).
    , @matt

    The IQ numbers for high-caste Indians-in-India are probably artificially depressed because so many high-IQ, high-caste Indians emigrate." rel="nofollow">The IQ numbers for high-caste Indians-in-India are probably artificially depressed because so many high-IQ, high-caste Indians emigrate.
     
    Some of the studies discussed go back to the 1960s, before the era of mass emigration from India and certainly before the era of mass high-skill emigration.
    , @JohnnyWalker123
    The IQ test scores are from 1966. At that point, hardly any Indians had emigrated abroad.

    High-caste Indians-in-India also often adhere to vegetarian diets with very poor nutritional characteristics (no protein, <1600 calories a day), which would lower their IQs relative to lower castes who eat more nutritious non-vegetarian diets. When vegetarian Indians emigrate, they're likely to either give up the vegetarianism (by the second generation anyway), or switch to Western-style vegetarian diets with much better nutritional characteristics (lots of tofu).

     

    India has extremely low meat consumption in general. So even the lower-castes don't eat much meat. Also, I'd assume the lower castes have lower calories consumption overall due to their poverty.

    The Pakistanis (who perform worse on many measures) have higher meat consumption.
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  171. @Brother Ma
    Like Iranians of course. Aryans are the original white people /Caucasians . So the stereotype white person is closer to a Greek,Armenian or Iranian.
    Hitler simply blathered on about Aryans needing to be blue eyed and blonde ALL thetime. In fact ,his conception is simply the Nordic subtype . Have you ever seen real Germans? Hitler and his propaganda minister were so dark they could pass for southern Greeks or Italians. Still white /Caucasian but not Of Nordic subtype.

    The Kalash in Pakistan and the green -eyed girl of National Geographic cover fame are all examples of people who are originally Aryan from those original invasions or of the Nordic subtype frpm Alexander,s Macedonian Northern Greek settlers. In Iran today you still find many blue eyed blonde types of this Nordic subtype but to conclude: Iranian.

    Like Iranians of course. Aryans are the original white people /Caucasians . So the stereotype white person is closer to a Greek,Armenian or Iranian.

    Wrong, according to the models so far northern Europeans are the closest thing to proto-Indo-Europeans and Greeks are not very Indo-European. Figure 3 of this paper:

    https://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/full/nature14317.html

    I googled up some random link straight to the picture if you can’t access Nature:

    The green component is their modeled relatedness to the ancient corpses sampled from this culture, a genetic component that did not exist in Europe or India before a mass migration from the Eastern European steppe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamna_culture

    Now, there are of course a lot of assumptions in a model like this. What they do is they *assume* that European peoples are a combination of three migration waves – the hunter-gatherers that repopulated the continent after the glaciers withdrew, the farmers from the Middle East and then those Yamna culture invaders from the Eastern European steppe – and then calculate the percentage of each ancestry. The method will be inaccurate if some people has a component outside of those three but that kind of components haven’t really been found in most of Europe (apart from areas influenced by Finno-Ugric and Turkic peoples).

    Another possibility is that there may have been other invasions from the east of peoples that might have been somewhat related to proto-Indo-Europeans. However that would be irrelevant to the point of figuring out which of today’s ethnic groups most resemble original Indo-Europeans – the green bar would still be a representation of “Indo-European + components similar to Indo-European”.

    Indo-Europeans did not originate in Scandinavia or the Baltic states but it appears that these areas got the most population replacement by Indo-European invaders. Considering the high frequency of recessive traits like blondeness and blue eyes in the areas, the Indo-Europeans must have been pretty blue eyed and blonde themselves or pale phenotypes would have been buried in the north. (With the caveat that there of course might have been more selection for these traits over the past few thousand years.)

    Of course the native hunter-gatherers of northern Europe must have also been rather blonde so those old European authors looking at “Aryans” as the source of blondeness were only half right – the Indo-Europeans must have been pretty blonde but northern Europeans must have already been pretty blonde even before Indo-Europeans.

    These models are going to get much better and more detailed in the near future, of course, so things may change but at this point the evidene is that the Indo-Europeans looked more like Norwegians and Lithuanians than Greeks or Armenians.

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    • Replies: @Jack Highlands
    Nice summary. On fairness/blondness though, the last I read a year or two ago at West Hunter was that SLC24A5 originated among the Neolithic farmers about 8,000 years ago. Presumably it spread to the Yamna or their ancestors via Balkans.

    It's worth pointing out a few items that seem generally accepted:

    Modern Sardinians are essentially pure Neolithic farmer genotype and, while not exactly Estonian blond, are overall fair: mostly fair brunets.

    Neolithic farmers numerically overwhelmed hunter-gatherers even in NW Europe.

    The Yamna were about 40/60 Neolithic farmer/hunter-gatherer. It was their invasion, leading to Corded Ware, that re-introduced most of our current HG component to NW Europe.

    SLC24A5 is not the only determinant of fairness in Whites, but it's the largest single determinant.
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  172. @kihowi
    That reminds me of the best question to ask a feminist: When in history have two armies of women fought each other?

    This doesn’t answer your question, but I find it charming and hope others do as well.

    XII.
    § 1. “NEARLY all the Gauls are of a lofty stature, fair, and of ruddy complexion; terrible from the sternness of their eyes, very quarrelsome, and of great pride and insolence. A whole troop of foreigners would not be able to withstand a single Gaul if he called his wife to his assistance, who is usually very strong, and with blue eyes; especially when, swelling her neck, gnashing her teeth, and brandishing her sallow arms of enormous size, she begins to strike blows mingled with kicks, as if they were so many missiles sent from the string of a catapult.”

    AMMIANUS MARCELLINUS, THE ROMAN HISTORY OF AMMIANUS MARCELLINUS DURING THE REIGNS OF THE EMPERORS CONSTANTIUS, JULIAN, JOVIANUS, VALENTINIAN, AND VALENS.

    TRANSLATED BY C.D. YONGE, M.A.
    BOOK XV, Chap XII

    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/28587/28587-h/28587-h.htm

    Read More
    • Replies: @Druid
    Seems that after Caesar killed a million Gauls and granted his soldiers land in Gaul, the look f the Gauls changed. Is this true? The later Viking invasions brought some of the whireness(!) back to the north???
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  173. namae nanka says: • Website
    @matt

    Then why is [sic the most effected sic by the Flynn effect?
     
    That's an interesting question. Flynn thinks it has to do with the fact that Raven's is a measure of abstract thinking ability, and cultural priorities have shifted over the decades toward valuing abstract over concrete thought. In any case, Raven's gains over time don't change the results of factor analysis applied to Raven's scores at a given time, which Jensen summarizes in The g Factor (p. 38):

    When the Progressive Matrices test is factor analyzed along with a variety of other tests, it is typically among the two or three tests having the highest g loadings, usually around .80. Probably its most distinctive feature is its very low loadings on any factor other than g. Raven’s Progressive Matrices is often used as a “marker” test for Spearman’s g. That is, it is entered into a factor analysis with other tests of unknown factor composition, and if the Matrices has a high loading on the general factor of the matrix of unknown tests, its g loading serves as a standard by which the g loadings of the other tests in the battery can be evaluated. I have yet to see a factor analysis of any diverse collection of tests that includes Raven’s Matrices in which the Raven’s largest loading was found on any factor other than g.
     

    If you knew anything about India, you’d be skeptical of any claim to have tested representative samples of the population.
     
    It's hard to get representative data for the entire Indian population, but it's easier to get data for a particular state or region. I tracked down one of the studies (Chopra 1966), which gathered an N=1359 sample of high school students of four castes in both rural and urban districts of Lucknow.

    In any case, if you'd like some more "real world" evidence, you can take a look at the Human Development Index scores for Indian states. If you look at the maps at Wikipedia, you can see that the southern (more Dravidian) states have higher HDI than the northern (more Indo-European and Middle Eastern) states, with the southernmost state, Kerala, having the highest HDI of all. The same holds for fertility rates, which are of course correlated with IQ.

    What we do know is that India has a massive affirmative action program for the lower castes in its otherwise meritocratic examination-based university admissions.
     
    It has a "reservation" system for "scheduled castes", meaning the lowest castes. If you look at the evidence I cited, the scheduled castes actually do score somewhat lower than the other castes on cognitive tests, although not on non-verbal tests like Raven's. Moreover, they get lower marks in school. This shouldn't be surprising on either an environmentalist or a hereditarian hypothesis (although hereditarianism would predict a caste gap on Raven's). Moreover, hereditarianism would predict, not only a gap between the scheduled and non-scheduled castes, but other caste gaps as well, in favor of the higher castes. The evidence I cited above, on the contrary, shows a decline in IQ and school marks from Brahmins to Vaishya (and not much of a gap between Brahmins and Scheduled Caste).

    Since the scheduled castes do show worst performance at least on verbal tests, that would be enough to translate into worse socioeconomic performance, and thus necessitate affirmative action. What should be surprising to hereditarians is that (A) the scheduled castes do not appear to do worse on non-verbal and highly g-loaded tests like Raven's, and (B) outside of the scheduled castes, the caste gaps go in the opposite of the predicted direction.

    Two paragraphs in a book is not “scientific evidence.”
     
    I don't know why you're so hung up on the number of paragraphs, but in those paragraphs you'll find four citations, one of which is a literature review with many more citations.

    So you are not a PC snowflake then? Humor me and let me know your estimates for genotypical IQ for the following groups: NE Asians, Ashkenazi, white Americans, black Americans, SE Asians, Pakistanis.
     
    The notion of "genotypical IQ" makes no sense, but I can say that at present the balance of evidence suggests that it is more likely than not that, in the same environment, white and black Americans would develop the same phenotypic IQ. Look through my comment history if you want to know why I think that. I don't know enough about the other populations you mention to make an informed judgment.

    but I can say that at present the balance of evidence suggests that it is more likely than not that, in the same environment, white and black Americans would develop the same phenotypic IQ

    How long have you been reading Steve?

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/applying-occams-razor-vs-asserting-occams-racist/

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    • Replies: @matt
    I can say with a fair degree of certainty that I know more about the subject than Steve does. I don't think he'd disagree, either.
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  174. snorlax says:
    @snorlax
    You and Lot are generally correct that the presence of affirmative action tells the whole story, but I would special-case India. Casteism, "Brahmin privilege" and so forth in India really is what SJWs imagine "racism" and "white privilege" to be in America and Europe.

    FWIW, my guess is Indian IQs do increase with caste, mainly because I'd expect poverty to cause r-selection and affluence to cause K-selection. The IQ numbers for high-caste Indians-in-India are probably artificially depressed because so many high-IQ, high-caste Indians emigrate.

    High-caste Indians-in-India also often adhere to vegetarian diets with very poor nutritional characteristics (no protein, <1600 calories a day), which would lower their IQs relative to lower castes who eat more nutritious non-vegetarian diets. When vegetarian Indians emigrate, they're likely to either give up the vegetarianism (by the second generation anyway), or switch to Western-style vegetarian diets with much better nutritional characteristics (lots of tofu).

    Higher-caste Indians are also quite a bit more resistant to giving up Hindu practices that are harmful to (largely, due to segregation, their own) public health (defecating outside instead of in toilets being the big one).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Numinous

    High-caste Indians-in-India also often adhere to vegetarian diets with very poor nutritional characteristics (no protein, <1600 calories a day), which would lower their IQs relative to lower castes who eat more nutritious non-vegetarian diets.
     
    This is nonsense in multiple ways. First, there is no correlation between caste and vegetarianism. Brahmin vegetarianism is specific to two regions (the UP, or the Gangetic belt) and the deep south (mainly Tamil Nadu.) Brahmins are meat-eaters virtually everywhere in the country. On the other hand, all castes in the western state of Gujarat practice vegetarianism (an influence of the austere religion of Jainism.) Second, Indian vegetarians tend to be very heavy dairy consumers (I'm one example), which provides enough proteins.

    Higher-caste Indians are also quite a bit more resistant to giving up Hindu practices that are harmful to (largely, due to segregation, their own) public health (defecating outside instead of in toilets being the big one).
     
    The only people who defecate outside in India are those who don't have access to toilets. It has nothing to do with caste.
    , @Grace Jones
    "Higher-caste Indians are also quite a bit more resistant to giving up Hindu practices that are harmful to (largely, due to segregation, their own) public health (defecating outside instead of in toilets being the big one)."

    Is this really a religiously-dictated practice, or just one that happens to be widespread among certain Hindu populations?
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  175. matt says:
    @snorlax
    You and Lot are generally correct that the presence of affirmative action tells the whole story, but I would special-case India. Casteism, "Brahmin privilege" and so forth in India really is what SJWs imagine "racism" and "white privilege" to be in America and Europe.

    FWIW, my guess is Indian IQs do increase with caste, mainly because I'd expect poverty to cause r-selection and affluence to cause K-selection. The IQ numbers for high-caste Indians-in-India are probably artificially depressed because so many high-IQ, high-caste Indians emigrate.

    The IQ numbers for high-caste Indians-in-India are probably artificially depressed because so many high-IQ, high-caste Indians emigrate.” rel=”nofollow”>The IQ numbers for high-caste Indians-in-India are probably artificially depressed because so many high-IQ, high-caste Indians emigrate.

    Some of the studies discussed go back to the 1960s, before the era of mass emigration from India and certainly before the era of mass high-skill emigration.

    Read More
    • Replies: @snorlax
    See my subsequent post (the other reply besides yours) about other factors that artificially decrease high-caste Indian IQ relative to lower castes.

    But also national IQ studies can be of dubious quality. That list of IQ studies by country that's popular in HBD circles contains quite a few clearly-nonsensical results, including something like 88 for Ireland, which can be disproven by using your eyes and comparing the living standards in Ireland to actual average-IQ-88 locations (e.g. Mexico City, Detroit, Beirut).

    And one of the lowest scores in Africa (and therefore the world) for Ethiopia, which makes no sense given they were one of the earliest civilizations, whom the Greeks and Romans considered a near-peer, created some fairly-impressive architecture, maintained their independence the longest of any people on the continent, defeated the Italians the first time around and put up a decent fight the second, are alone among the peoples of black Africa in creating a decent national cuisine, and are known (relatively-speaking) for an entrepreneurial streak as immigrants.

    And something in the low 90's for Israel (Jews only) which is very hard to believe even accounting for the Mizrahim and Haredim. And the figures in the 70's for South Asia are likewise hard to believe given how many have become well-known and genuinely-respected figures in STEM, medicine, high finance and as business executives, and that without (in America, Britain is a different story) being graded on a curve like NAMs are.

    And so on.
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  176. nebulafox says:
    @Almost Missouri

    "Hitler simply blathered on about Aryans needing to be blue eyed and blonde ALL the time."
     
    While Hitler certainly blathered about Aryans, as far as I know, he never bothered defining the term (other than as non-Jewish), possibly because, as you mention, he and many of his henchmen didn't resemble the Nordic stereotype. Or maybe he was being politic, as he made political and military alliances with people who were Southern European, Balkan, and even Arab and Indian.
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    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    Yeah, I was writing in response to what Hitler "blathered about". Generalplan Ost was a highly secret (i.e. non-blathered) document. Also, it wasn't written by Hitler, though he no doubt approved it.

    There were plenty of Nazi atrocities against Slavs, but Hitler didn't publicly express (blather) the animus against Slavs that he did against Jews.

    Not defending any of this, obviously, just noticing a few of the peculiarities of this pivotal situation.
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  177. nebulafox says:
    @syonredux
    Hitler seems to have enjoyed mocking some of the more extreme examples of Nazi Nordicism:

    Why do we call the whole world’s attention to the fact that we have no past? It isn’t enough that the Romans were erecting great buildings when our forefathers were still living in mud huts; now Himmler is starting to dig up these villages of mud huts and enthusing over every potsherd and stone axe he finds. All we prove by that is that we were still throwing stone hatchets and crouching around open fires when Greece and Rome had already reached the highest stage of culture. We really should do our best to keep quiet about this past. Instead Himmler makes a great fuss about it all. The present-day Romans must be having a laugh at these revelations
     

    Hitler had little time for the romantic notions of the SS in general, which he dismissed as pseudo-religious nonsense. (He wasn’t the only one-Josef Goebbels dismissed Himmler’s ideological fixations as “in many regards, mad” in his diary.) As Joachim Fest noted, Hitler admired classical Greece and Rome far more than the ancient Germanics.

    “What nonsense! Here we have at last reached an age that has left all mysticism behind it, and now Himmler wants to start that all over again. We might just as well have stayed with the Church. At least it had tradition. To think that I may some day be turned into an SS saint! Can you imagine it? I would turn over in my grave…”

    With that being said, Nazism itself was, practically speaking, a pseudo-religion. Although Hitler had long since ceased to be a Catholic in any meaningful sense of the word by the time he entered politics in 1919, the pomp and ritual of his boyhood Catholicism in Austria made an indelible impact on Nazi aesthetics, and to some extent, ideology.

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  178. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Most likely because there are significant differences in wealth among the social classes in India. Since India (like China) places a huge emphasis on cram schools, my guess is that the upper caste parents can afford a very extreme degreee of Tiger Parenting. So the lower castes want affirmative action to help them compete.

    I looked at the entrance test questions; they are not exactly crammable.

    e.g. from JEE:
    Twenty meters of wire is available for
    fencing off a flower-bed in the form of a
    circular sector. Then the maximum area
    (in sq. m) of the flower-bed, is :
    (1) 10
    (2) 25
    (3) 30
    (4) 12.5

    from SAT:
    Aaron is staying at a hotel that charges $99.95 per night plus tax for a room. A tax of 8% is applied to the room rate, and an additional onetime untaxed fee of $5.00 is charged by the hotel. Which of the following represents Aaron’s total charge, in dollars, for staying x nights?
    A
    left parenthesis 99.5 plus 0.08 x right parenthesis plus 5
    B
    1.08 open parentheses 99.95 x close parentheses plus 5
    C
    1.08 open parentheses 99.95 x plus 5 close parentheses
    D
    1.08 open parentheses 99.95 plus 5 close parentheses x

    Read More
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Professor Flynn that Chinese-American parenting raised their children's IQ scores by about 9 points. So even if the Indian university admission tests aren't crammable, being Tiger Parented probably substantially increases the IQ scores of affluent upper-caste children.

    Given the poverty of India, I'd assume that affluent upper-caste children enjoy a much better environment (nutrition, sanitation, healthcare) than the lower-caste children. The overall impact is likely very large.
    , @Autochthon
    Why is this question written as if the author used a computer with a malfunctioning shift key?

    It should read:

    A. (99.5 + 0.08x) + 5

    B. 1.08(99.95x) + 5

    C. 1.08(99.95x + 5)

    D. 1.08(99.95 + 5)x

    Yet even the final three of these reductions to something approaching a basic familiarity with mathematical notation are terribly done, for aesthetic and practical reasons – cramming numerical multiplicands (or multipliers, if you like; in the third, most bizarre case, one had better call them all factors and let it lie...) together, separated only by parentheses, one creates a muddled mess difficult to easily discern. In either event one is testing the applicants ability to muddle through shitty writing more so than one's mathematical ability (both may reflect intelligence and patience, but they are not the same!). I have three degrees and I lot of fancy military qualifications; I have sat a hojillion such exams. Thankfully, though, it has been many years since last I did (the bar). Every time I see a recent example taken from such an examination, I am amazed at how much stupider the authors of the exams seem to have become, and how much poorer the instrument is as a result.

    #ubiquitousinnumeracy

    , @Lot

    e.g. from JEE:
    Twenty meters of wire is available for
    fencing off a flower-bed in the form of a
    circular sector. Then the maximum area
    (in sq. m) of the flower-bed, is :
    (1) 10
    (2) 25
    (3) 30
    (4) 12.5
     
    The answer is 100/pi. That would not be on the SAT, which if it wants the closest answer, it will say so explicitly. "a flower-bed in the form of a circular sector" is an odd way of saying "circular flower bed."
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  179. @neutral
    The real question now, that I am sure is on a lot of minds, is what exactly did these Aryans look like ? Did they look like something that would have satisfied Third Reich idealists or would they have looked more like people look like in Iran ?

    The Iranian Scythians of classical times are described as tall and blond by the Greeks. They also roamed the proposed original Indo European homeland.

    Then of course we have the example of the ancient blond Celts, the blond Germanics, the blond Slavs, the blond Tocharians, an early eastern offshoot of the Indo European migrations

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  180. @snorlax
    You and Lot are generally correct that the presence of affirmative action tells the whole story, but I would special-case India. Casteism, "Brahmin privilege" and so forth in India really is what SJWs imagine "racism" and "white privilege" to be in America and Europe.

    FWIW, my guess is Indian IQs do increase with caste, mainly because I'd expect poverty to cause r-selection and affluence to cause K-selection. The IQ numbers for high-caste Indians-in-India are probably artificially depressed because so many high-IQ, high-caste Indians emigrate.

    The IQ test scores are from 1966. At that point, hardly any Indians had emigrated abroad.

    High-caste Indians-in-India also often adhere to vegetarian diets with very poor nutritional characteristics (no protein, <1600 calories a day), which would lower their IQs relative to lower castes who eat more nutritious non-vegetarian diets. When vegetarian Indians emigrate, they're likely to either give up the vegetarianism (by the second generation anyway), or switch to Western-style vegetarian diets with much better nutritional characteristics (lots of tofu).

    India has extremely low meat consumption in general. So even the lower-castes don’t eat much meat. Also, I’d assume the lower castes have lower calories consumption overall due to their poverty.

    The Pakistanis (who perform worse on many measures) have higher meat consumption.

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    • Replies: @matt
    I also believe that the Brahmins can consume dairy protein.
    , @snorlax
    Yes, India has very poor nutrition in general which lowers IQs generally; but the higher castes have the worst nutrition of all, if only slightly.

    WRT Pakistan, Islam is a helluva drug (Muslims everywhere are consistently outscored by their non-Muslim geographic/genetic neighbors, as well as outperformed in general, e.g. in a series of wars the Muslim Arab/African mulatto North Sudanese have repeatedly had their asses kicked by the numerically-inferior, Christian entirely-African South Sudanese). Also, as others have said, the Dravidians of southern India have higher IQs than the northern part of the subcontinent (including Pakistan).
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  181. @anon
    I looked at the entrance test questions; they are not exactly crammable.

    e.g. from JEE:
    Twenty meters of wire is available for
    fencing off a flower-bed in the form of a
    circular sector. Then the maximum area
    (in sq. m) of the flower-bed, is :
    (1) 10
    (2) 25
    (3) 30
    (4) 12.5

    from SAT:
    Aaron is staying at a hotel that charges $99.95 per night plus tax for a room. A tax of 8% is applied to the room rate, and an additional onetime untaxed fee of $5.00 is charged by the hotel. Which of the following represents Aaron’s total charge, in dollars, for staying x nights?
    A
    left parenthesis 99.5 plus 0.08 x right parenthesis plus 5
    B
    1.08 open parentheses 99.95 x close parentheses plus 5
    C
    1.08 open parentheses 99.95 x plus 5 close parentheses
    D
    1.08 open parentheses 99.95 plus 5 close parentheses x

    Professor Flynn that Chinese-American parenting raised their children’s IQ scores by about 9 points. So even if the Indian university admission tests aren’t crammable, being Tiger Parented probably substantially increases the IQ scores of affluent upper-caste children.

    Given the poverty of India, I’d assume that affluent upper-caste children enjoy a much better environment (nutrition, sanitation, healthcare) than the lower-caste children. The overall impact is likely very large.

    Read More
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  182. matt says:
    @namae nanka

    but I can say that at present the balance of evidence suggests that it is more likely than not that, in the same environment, white and black Americans would develop the same phenotypic IQ
     
    How long have you been reading Steve?

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/applying-occams-razor-vs-asserting-occams-racist/

    I can say with a fair degree of certainty that I know more about the subject than Steve does. I don’t think he’d disagree, either.

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  183. matt says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    The IQ test scores are from 1966. At that point, hardly any Indians had emigrated abroad.

    High-caste Indians-in-India also often adhere to vegetarian diets with very poor nutritional characteristics (no protein, <1600 calories a day), which would lower their IQs relative to lower castes who eat more nutritious non-vegetarian diets. When vegetarian Indians emigrate, they're likely to either give up the vegetarianism (by the second generation anyway), or switch to Western-style vegetarian diets with much better nutritional characteristics (lots of tofu).

     

    India has extremely low meat consumption in general. So even the lower-castes don't eat much meat. Also, I'd assume the lower castes have lower calories consumption overall due to their poverty.

    The Pakistanis (who perform worse on many measures) have higher meat consumption.

    I also believe that the Brahmins can consume dairy protein.

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  184. matt says:
    @Anonym
    The notion of “genotypical IQ” makes no sense, but I can say that at present the balance of evidence suggests that it is more likely than not that, in the same environment, white and black Americans would develop the same phenotypic IQ. Look through my comment history if you want to know why I think that. I don’t know enough about the other populations you mention to make an informed judgment.

    That was some pro questioning by Lot to bring up this. Props to you, Lot.

    Since the 1960s there has been all manner of attempts and billions of dollars spent to level "the gap", and it has been a dismal failure. We are expected to believe that in all the sub-Saharan cultures around the world, including the ones where there are only SSAs, that it is all the case of the environment dragging the black man down, and that it is only the environment of the white man that is the difference? Same schools, same workplaces... it must be terrible black parenting to blame. If only the blacks had that magical parenting touch of the white man! Maybe it even starts in the womb. But not one moment earlier than conception!

    Since the 1960s there has been all manner of attempts and billions of dollars spent to level “the gap”, and it has been a dismal failure.

    There’s a good deal of evidence that the gap closed considerably during the 20th century, though I don’t think that has much to do with educational spending since the Great Society.

    We are expected to believe that in all the sub-Saharan cultures around the world, including the ones where there are only SSAs, that it is all the case of the environment dragging the black man down, and that it is only the environment of the white man that is the difference

    Given that sub-Saharan Africa is rife with parasites and nutritional problems, and sub-Saharan populations everywhere else started as slave communities, I’m not sure why it should be a priori surprising that sub-Saharan African populations all around the world would have depressed average IQs. In any case, it may not be universally true, anyway.

    If only the blacks had that magical parenting touch of the white man! Maybe it even starts in the womb. But not one moment earlier than conception!

    If you have some actual data you’d like to discuss, feel free to present it. If you have only slogans and catchphrases, you might want to stay silent.

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    • Replies: @Peripatetic commenter
    You forgot to mention epigenetics. Shame on you!
    , @res

    If you have some actual data you’d like to discuss, feel free to present it. If you have only slogans and catchphrases, you might want to stay silent.
     
    Cool. Let's do that. The two pieces of data I find most compelling about the black white gap in the US having a significant non-environmental (i.e. genetic) component are:

    1. Data showing blacks with a family income of over $200k barely scoring higher on the SAT than whites with a family income of under $20k. Along with a consistent black-white gap of 143-180 points at each income level.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/2008-sat-scores-by-race-by-income/

    2. Recent research that shows the relative frequencies of IQ related SNPs found in GWAS have a high correlation with measured IQ by country.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/genetics-of-racial-differences-in-intelligence-updated/
    (further discussion in more recent posts in Dr. Thompson's blog)

    Looking forward to seeing that expertise you claimed in comment 181.

    P.S. If you want more data, here is a study looking at how European admixture correlates with IQ:
    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/admixture-in-americas-european/
    , @guest
    "Enough with your catchphrases, buzzwords, half-truths, and gorilla dust! Show me your data, and your peer-reviewed journal articles. This is a hard science blog. Science, I say!"
    , @Reg Cæsar

    There’s a good deal of evidence that the gap closed considerably during the 20th century
     
    But it may be opening up again, thanks to the widening of that other gap– the one between the knees.

    Herrnstein and Murray gingerly hinted at this.
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  185. Jim says:
    @spandrell
    Hong Kong people speak atrocious English.

    Languages are never shared absent widespread coercion, i.e. violence. Doesn't happen. If it did happen what you'd find is a sort of merger. But that's not what Sanskrit is. It really is very pure indo-european.

    Sanskrit is of course very important in the reconstruction of Proto-Indo-European but it is by no means identical to Proto-Indo-European. Sanskrit is not necessarily closer to Proto-Indo-European than Anatolian languages.

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  186. @Gringo
    I am reminded of an anecdote a friend told me after her trip to India. She was in southern India, where the majority are Dravadians speaking one of the Dravadian languages. My friend asked someone in southern India if he spoke Hindi. "We don't speak the conquerer's language," came the reply.

    As such,English is a neutral language in India by virtue of finessing the history of who conquered whom before the English came to India.

    The Dalit Untouchables are big fans of Thomas Babington Macaulay for making English the language of higher education in India.

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  187. snorlax says:
    @matt

    The IQ numbers for high-caste Indians-in-India are probably artificially depressed because so many high-IQ, high-caste Indians emigrate." rel="nofollow">The IQ numbers for high-caste Indians-in-India are probably artificially depressed because so many high-IQ, high-caste Indians emigrate.
     
    Some of the studies discussed go back to the 1960s, before the era of mass emigration from India and certainly before the era of mass high-skill emigration.

    See my subsequent post (the other reply besides yours) about other factors that artificially decrease high-caste Indian IQ relative to lower castes.

    But also national IQ studies can be of dubious quality. That list of IQ studies by country that’s popular in HBD circles contains quite a few clearly-nonsensical results, including something like 88 for Ireland, which can be disproven by using your eyes and comparing the living standards in Ireland to actual average-IQ-88 locations (e.g. Mexico City, Detroit, Beirut).

    And one of the lowest scores in Africa (and therefore the world) for Ethiopia, which makes no sense given they were one of the earliest civilizations, whom the Greeks and Romans considered a near-peer, created some fairly-impressive architecture, maintained their independence the longest of any people on the continent, defeated the Italians the first time around and put up a decent fight the second, are alone among the peoples of black Africa in creating a decent national cuisine, and are known (relatively-speaking) for an entrepreneurial streak as immigrants.

    And something in the low 90′s for Israel (Jews only) which is very hard to believe even accounting for the Mizrahim and Haredim. And the figures in the 70′s for South Asia are likewise hard to believe given how many have become well-known and genuinely-respected figures in STEM, medicine, high finance and as business executives, and that without (in America, Britain is a different story) being graded on a curve like NAMs are.

    And so on.

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    • Replies: @matt
    Whenever the data doesn't fit your hypothesis, you "use your eyes" and your mystical intuition instead. Perhaps throw in a pithy catchphrase or two. Got it.
    , @JohnnyWalker123

    But also national IQ studies can be of dubious quality. That list of IQ studies by country that’s popular in HBD circles contains quite a few clearly-nonsensical results, including something like 88 for Ireland, which can be disproven by using your eyes and comparing the living standards in Ireland to actual average-IQ-88 locations (e.g. Mexico City, Detroit, Beirut).

     

    Ron Unz has an article on how Irish IQ has risen significantly over the last several decades.

    Many HBDers believe that high-IQ creates prosperity. Ron Unz has, convicingly, made the opposite case: prosperity creates high-IQ. As Ireland has prospered, its national IQ has risen.

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-irish-iq-chinese-iq/

    For example, when I pointed out that Lynn had devoted many years of personal research in Ireland and eventually concluded that they were clearly a low-IQ race, several commenters angrily denounced Lynn, one going so far as to call him an anti-Irish bigot of KKK- or Nazi-like proportions. But if so many people want to attack the Irish Front of my analysis, and suggest I’m just dishonestly cherry-picking the data to fabricate a fraudulent case, perhaps we should indeed take a closer look at the Great Irish IQ Question.

    First, Lynn was hardly unique among leading IQ experts in characterizing the Irish as being low IQ. For example, Hans Eysenck, one of the foremost IQ researchers of the 20th century said exactly the same thing in his 1971 book “Race, Intelligence, & Education,” claiming that the Irish IQ was very close to that of American blacks, and that the Irish/English IQ gap was almost exactly the same size as the black/white gap in the U.S., being roughly a full standard deviation. Eysenck’s stated position unsurprisingly caused a considerable furor in the British media, including all sorts of angry responses and even (facetious) threats of violence. So the huge and apparently well-designed 1972 study of 3,466 Irish schoolchildren which placed the mean Irish IQ at just 87 hardly seems an absurd outlier
     
    , @Old Palo Altan
    I would hazard a guess that comparing the Ethiopia of 2000 years ago to the Ethiopia of today is rather like comparing the England of 100 years ago to the dusky coloured shambles it will be a hundred years from now.
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  188. Coemgen says:
    @conatus
    In invasions, males get slaughtered and women get screwed. It is easier for them to be raped than to fight back, at lest according to genetic results.
    They get raped by the invaders whereas the guys get their heads chopped off.

    The Guanches lived in the Canary Islands undisturbed for a thousand years. They were a Berber descended peoples who inhabited the Canary islands peacefully for a 1000 years until the Spanish discovered them in the 1450s and conquered them.Whose genes made it into the future, men or women?
    Not the guy's!
    Roughly 6 times as many feminist genes as guys.


    "Admixture analysis taking the Iberians, Northwest and West sub-Saharan African populations as parental sources of the actual Canarian population, gave estimates of around 33% for the maternal4 and 6% for the paternal5 Guanche lineages. This strong sexual asymmetry was explained as a result of a strong bias favouring matings between European males and aboriginal females, and to the important aboriginal male mortality during the Conquest."

    from here
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v12/n2/full/5201075a.html

    Speaking of sub-saharan africans, why does there appear to be a dearth of science regarding the Y-chromosomes of black americans?

    There’s certainly no shortage of narratives explaining the mixed-race genetics of black americans.

    Something tells me the dominant narrative and the science are more alike in the dominant narrative than the science and the dominant narrative are in the science.

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  189. matt says:
    @snorlax
    See my subsequent post (the other reply besides yours) about other factors that artificially decrease high-caste Indian IQ relative to lower castes.

    But also national IQ studies can be of dubious quality. That list of IQ studies by country that's popular in HBD circles contains quite a few clearly-nonsensical results, including something like 88 for Ireland, which can be disproven by using your eyes and comparing the living standards in Ireland to actual average-IQ-88 locations (e.g. Mexico City, Detroit, Beirut).

    And one of the lowest scores in Africa (and therefore the world) for Ethiopia, which makes no sense given they were one of the earliest civilizations, whom the Greeks and Romans considered a near-peer, created some fairly-impressive architecture, maintained their independence the longest of any people on the continent, defeated the Italians the first time around and put up a decent fight the second, are alone among the peoples of black Africa in creating a decent national cuisine, and are known (relatively-speaking) for an entrepreneurial streak as immigrants.

    And something in the low 90's for Israel (Jews only) which is very hard to believe even accounting for the Mizrahim and Haredim. And the figures in the 70's for South Asia are likewise hard to believe given how many have become well-known and genuinely-respected figures in STEM, medicine, high finance and as business executives, and that without (in America, Britain is a different story) being graded on a curve like NAMs are.

    And so on.

    Whenever the data doesn’t fit your hypothesis, you “use your eyes” and your mystical intuition instead. Perhaps throw in a pithy catchphrase or two. Got it.

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    • Replies: @snorlax
    Yes, when one is presented with data, one of the most important heuristics to assess their quality is to use one's common sense to assess whether they square with known, clearly-observable reality.[1] Practices along these lines are known as "abstract thinking," which is among the variables IQ tests attempt to measure.

    Part of known, clearly-observable reality is naturally the existing data, which show 1) excluding the Irish, every Western European nationality virtually always averages in the 97-103 range in IQ studies, 2) besides the outlier I mentioned that appears in the widely-circulated list, Irish IQ studies also average in that range.[2]

    Further, the Irish standard of living and the advancement and diversification of their economy is not only among the highest in the world but among the highest in Western Europe. Their performance on g-loaded educational measures such as PISA scores tend towards the high end of the Western European average. Intel, which does not hire stupid people, put its third major engineering wing, after Santa Clara and Haifa, in County Kildare.

    So given the obvious facts of observable reality, it's clear that either the 88-IQ study was an outlier, with an unrepresentatively dim-witted sample[3], or the researchers made an error in calculating or averaging the scores, or the average was mistranscribed (98->88) somewhere along the line, or it was of an intentionally-unrepresentative sample[4] which was missed by whoever compiled the list, or whoever compiled the list[5] dislikes the Irish for whatever reason and made up a fake study or found the lowest outlier they could to include.

    If the result were generally-accurate and repeatable, which again is very doubtful, it would not be evidence for the dim-wittedness of the people of Ireland so much as evidence against, depending on how strong a thesis can be drawn from the corroborating data, IQ as a proxy for intelligence, the quality of current methods of IQ testing, or the quality of the specific IQ test used in this instance.

    Were that the case it might additionally give us insight into the causes of the Flynn effect, as Ireland's predominantly-rural population densities and (at least until recently) adherence to the social norms of devout Catholicism resemble the environment early IQ test-takers were raised in.

    [1] Which is of course a heuristic that can often identify bad data, but not whether it's actually good.

    [2] I haven't actually checked this, because I used abstract thinking to intuit it's the case. If you want citations Unz has plenty of crazy Irish[-American] nationalists who I'm sure will be able to dig up reams of them, so I can't quite work up the motivation to do it myself. But sight-unseen I'd bet the house on it.

    [3] Which the law of averages mandates must happen from time to time when sampling at random, especially with low N's.

    [4] e.g. dyslexics, dementia sufferers, ESLs

    [5] Which as I said contains some other headscratchers.
    , @Discordiax
    When you have testing data that is out of line with factors that usually correspond, several hypotheses present themselves.

    1. There is a unique factor at work that explains why 88 IQ Ireland looks and feels like a 100 IQ western European country rather than a colder, rainier Mexico. (British imperialist influence? 40 years of EU equalization payments replacing mud tracks with four lanes of asphalt? Significant educational time wasted learning Gaelic? Combination?)

    2. The test data is flawed. MEaning that there is something fishy in the structuring of that particular test iteration.

    3. The test data is an outlier. The test was written and administered validly enough, but the results probably wouldn't be replicated.

    Without evidence, we shouldn't rule out 1 or 2 or 3, nor should we jump to concluding 1 or 2 or 3.
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  190. snorlax says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    The IQ test scores are from 1966. At that point, hardly any Indians had emigrated abroad.

    High-caste Indians-in-India also often adhere to vegetarian diets with very poor nutritional characteristics (no protein, <1600 calories a day), which would lower their IQs relative to lower castes who eat more nutritious non-vegetarian diets. When vegetarian Indians emigrate, they're likely to either give up the vegetarianism (by the second generation anyway), or switch to Western-style vegetarian diets with much better nutritional characteristics (lots of tofu).

     

    India has extremely low meat consumption in general. So even the lower-castes don't eat much meat. Also, I'd assume the lower castes have lower calories consumption overall due to their poverty.

    The Pakistanis (who perform worse on many measures) have higher meat consumption.

    Yes, India has very poor nutrition in general which lowers IQs generally; but the higher castes have the worst nutrition of all, if only slightly.

    WRT Pakistan, Islam is a helluva drug (Muslims everywhere are consistently outscored by their non-Muslim geographic/genetic neighbors, as well as outperformed in general, e.g. in a series of wars the Muslim Arab/African mulatto North Sudanese have repeatedly had their asses kicked by the numerically-inferior, Christian entirely-African South Sudanese). Also, as others have said, the Dravidians of southern India have higher IQs than the northern part of the subcontinent (including Pakistan).

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    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    Actually, given the widespread nutritional deprivation, I'd imagine the higher castes eat better. They have more money. In India, there's a very large height difference between the economic classes.
    , @rec1man
    There are high and low IQ castes in both North and South India

    In the Southern state of Tamil Nadu, the 98% Dravidians have a 69% quota to protect themselves from the 2% Tamil Brahmins ( mostly migrants from North India )

    In Karnataka ( Bangalore ), the dravidians have a 73% quota to protect themselves from local brahmins
    , @Anon
    Ramadan is hard on the development of a child's brain, and it's horrible for your blood sugar. It's common in Islamic societies to break a Ramadan fast with a huge load of sugary dishes that are enough to make your pancreas keel over. Starving all day and then eating a ton of sugar is godawful for you.
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  191. Jim says:
    @Broski
    "Can someone explain why it isn’t a leap to posit an Indo-Aryan race based on linguistic similarity?"

    It was a leap. That's why only now, with DNA studies, is the theory confirmed.

    Linguistic similarities closely correspond to genetic similarities. Of course there are exceptions but generally there is correspondence. The evidence since the early 19th century always indicated the area north of the Black Sea as the most likely place where Proto-Indo-European was spoken and it was always unlikely that the original speakers were highly diverse.

    By the way it is better to use the term Indo-European rather than Indo-Aryan. Aryan more properly refers to one branch of Indo-European which is also called Indo-Iranian.

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  192. Phillip says:
    @TheJester
    We made a quick run through the Aryan invasion of India at the university in the 1960s. The story was that the Aryans brought Sanscript, the Hindi religion, and the caste system with them. Hence, it would be interesting to know when PC changed The Narrative.

    As the story went, the Aryan warriors and priests were at the top of the caste system. The native Indians were naturally at the bottom of the caste system ... the servants of the upper castes for life as they suffered for their personal transgressions through one of many lives buttressed by a belief in reincarnation. If the lower castes suffer lives of privation and ruin, it is because they deserve it. One need not and should not intervene, even to save lives. This is the same India that my wife saw last year on a two-week tour of the country.

    I have had very well educated Indians, upper castes of course, tell me that the caste system and reincarnation (with one depending on the other) are obvious ... like the sun coming up in the morning. They await Westerner Civilization achieving a measure of enlightenment to see the obvious. This is ironic since part of the upper-caste Indian narrative is that the Aryans were also responsible for Western Civilization, including Christianity that is nothing but a compilation of Hindi folktales that made their way from India to the Levant.

    Ideologies of Election, it seems, are almost universal among civilizations to justify caste, class, religious, racial, and cultural domination.

    “including Christianity that is nothing but a compilation of Hindi folktales that made their way from India to the Levant.”

    Uh, I think not. Actual Biblical Scholars and historians believe a massive range of things about the history of the New Testament and the historical Jesus. You can find Orthodox intellectuals like N.T. Wright and Paul Johnson who believe the Biblical texts are largely accurate and trustworthy. You can also find secular atheist scholars like Robert Funk of the Jesus Seminar and John Dominic Crossan who will offer all sorts of ideas, ranging from Crossan’s belief that Jesus was actually a Jewish Cynic Philosopher to other claims that he fit into ancient categories of Magician. You can also find scholarly claims that he was a student of Merkabah mysticism, influenced by the Essenes, a zealot, or influenced by Jewish Charismatics like Honi the Circle Drawer.

    There was a time when some scholars tried to claim that the story of Jesus was an imitation of contemporaneous pagan myths, such as that of Mithra, but those theories have fallen out of fashion thanks to the research of David Ulansey in the ’80s, who convincingly showed there was no connection between the Persian Mithra of Zoroastianism and the Roman Mithra that seems to have been connected to astrology and the myth of him killing the cosmic bull (I would add that his conclusions have been universally accepted by the Council of Mithraic Studies). You still see people on the internet parroting the now debunked information, but no serious scholar now accepts it or any of the other “pagan christs” put forth by pseudo-scholars like Freke and Gandy.

    While I hold to the more orthodox view of the New Testament, I acknowledge the possibility of other interpretations of the data we have. However, as far as I’m aware, your hypothesis that the New Testament narrative is somehow derived from Hindi folk tales is not entertained by any serious scholar, regardless of their faith or lack thereof.

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  193. @Anon
    Interesting topic.

    For the past few months, I've been learning classical Sanskrit using Coulson's 1976 book. Before I started Coulson's book, I was under the impression that Sanskrit was in some manner "close" to classical Greek. At this point, I don't see any connection between classical Greek and Sanskrit. I'm no philologist, though I used to be relatively fluent in classical Greek, so this observation could be very, very wrong.

    Also, last night until the wee hours, I was reading Anna Narriette Leonowens, "Life and Travel in India," a book so riveting and observant I couldn't put it down. Leonowens completely buys into the Aryan invasion scenario, one that she finds indisputable ... just as contemporary academics have their own, less plausible "givens." This book is available for free on Project Gutenberg, by the way, along with dozens of other colonist-era India narratives.

    Last week I read Walter Crane's, "India Impressions" -- a great book from the 1850s, or so. Leonowens wrote around 1900.

    Anna Narriette Leonowens, “Life and Travel in India,”

    That’s the Anna and the King of Siam Anna, right?

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    • Replies: @Another German
    Yes.
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  194. Jim says:
    @Flip
    I think the ANI/ASI article a few years ago tied the Aryans to Georgians, and there is the Indo-Iranian subset of the Indo-European languages, suggesting a connection there.

    Georgian is not an Indo-European language.

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    • Replies: @Flip
    "I want to highlight one aspect which is not in the abstract: the closest population to the “Ancestral North Indians”, those who contributed the West Eurasian component to modern Indian ancestry, seem to be Georgians and other Caucasians."

    -Razib Khan

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/08/indo-aryans-dravidians-and-waves-of-admixture-migration/#.WUYJzLpFw2w
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  195. gcochran says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    This isn't neccessarily correct.

    At the elite end of academic achievement, parental influence and environment matter a lot. Especially in countries with traditions of Tiger Parenting. So if an upper caste parent can afford an expensive tutor and a lower caste parent can't afford a tutor, whose kid will do better (assuming equal IQ)?

    As Ron Unz has pointed out, the IQ scores of early 20th century Euro immigrants were about a standard deviation below the White mean. Now they're about equal. Given that India is a much poorer and more unequal country than early 20th century America, I'm sure there is a very extreme degree of IQ depression.

    ” IQ scores of early 20th century Euro immigrants were about a standard deviation below the White mean.”

    It’s called learning English.

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    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    70% of Irish immigrants spoke English. Among those IQ tested, I'd expect the percentage was even higher.
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  196. Jim says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Romans were Etruscans for all practical purposes. The fighting man is valorized for a good reason, as it is closely tied to what was needed to survive and expand in an agricultural society; and Europeans indeed extended basic respect to Muslim invaders when they had to fight for their gains even as far as back the Song of Roland.

    Its one thing to respect an enemy, its another thing to welcome invasion without resistance.

    Anyway, grand pacifism is ridiculous. Its what has led to the modern world.

    Etruscan is not an Indo-European language.

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  197. matt says:
    @Rodolfo
    No. Raven is not the "most g loaded test". Consider that the Wais IV test has a subtest almost identical to Raven, "Matrix Reasoning", and that not only is it not the subtest with the highest g-loading, as it has a g-loading identical to the subtest "Vocabulary". Considering the test as a whole, the Wais g-loading is bigger than Raven's, simply because it is more diverse in the kind of questions it has. Look:

    https://books.google.com.br/books?id=4iHTzkqdQYQC&lpg=PA36&pg=PA36#v=onepage

    Consider also that there is a massive evidence of scholastic hability difference between castes and that this in turn represents evidence of a difference in IQ between them. Even if there is a study in which no difference in IQ was found among Indian castes, remember that of the limited number of samples in these studies. If you have evidence of any massively applied test such as the US SAT, please show us.

    I can’t see the page you’ve linked to in my country. Until I can, I’ll stick with Jensen, who wrote that Raven’s “is among the two or three tests having the highest g loadings” (see this comment).

    I also didn’t present “a study”. If you look at my comments, you’ll find a link to a book that lists several citations, one of which is a literature review. Have a look if you’re interested.

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    • Replies: @Rodolfo
    See, for example, Wais IV subtests g-loadings:

    http://oi67.tinypic.com/rgy0lf.jpg

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  198. Jim says:
    @nebulafox
    Farsi is far more related to European languages than to Semitic languages like Arabic or Hebrew. It is a surprisingly easy language to learn for English speakers, in spite of the Arabic-style writing script and name.

    Anyway, yes. Persians are more or less Islamized Caucasians-quite literally, in fact, when you consider that everything related to the word "Aryan" comes originally from Iran. Pale skin and green eyes are very common. They've "only" been Shi'a since the 17th Century. They've been Persian since the beginning of time.

    (It's tricky to speak of an "Iranian", because Iran is a pretty diverse place with lots of minorities. But like China, there's very clearly an overwhelmingly dominant culture that has an uninterrupted cultural tapestry going back thousands of years. Russia, too, deals with this misconception-less than 4/5ths of the populace is ethnically Russian, yet a lot of secularized Central Asian/Tartar types identify completely with Russian culture and the Kremlin politically. As one example, Shoygu-Putin's minister of Defense and one of his top cronies-is half Tuvan and a Buddhist, and one of the men Putin seems to admire most is this elderly Muslim general and leading military theorist in Russia, Makhmut Gareev.)

    Farsi is of course an Indo-European language not an Afro-Asiatic(Semitic) language.

    Modern Iran has a large number of speakers of Turkic languages. There are also Kurdish speakers. The Kurdish language is an Indo-Iranian (Aryan) language.

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  199. @Patrick Harris
    In the movie, Arthur was a Romano-Briton but his knights were Sarmatians, a Iranic-speaking people like the Ossetians. I think the Ossetians are generally held to be descended from the Alans. But all those steppe nomads kind of run together.

    In the Clive Owen “King Arthur,” where does the little boy Arthur in the opening scene get taken away from by Roman recruiters: the Eurasian steppe or northern Britain? I guessed the first but I could be wrong.

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    • Replies: @Patrick Harris
    The kid in the opening scene on the steppe is Lancelot. When we get flashbacks of Arthur's childhood, he's pulling his father's sword from an earth mound to fight the Pictish barbarians. Merlin tells him "your mother was of our blood" at one point.
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  200. Here’s a study on median net wealth by ethnicity/religion in the UK.

    White British -£221,000
    Indian – £204,000
    Pakistani – £97,000
    Other Asian – £50,000
    Black Caribbean – £76,000
    Black African – £21,000
    Bangladeshi – £15,000

    Jewish – £422,000
    Sikh – £229,000
    Christian – £223,000
    Hindu -£206,000
    Muslim – £42,00

    Here’s what’s interesting.

    The Sikhs mostly arrived in the UK as factory laborers. About a third of them were from the untouchable Sikh caste.

    Here are literacy rates by religion in India.

    The data released on December 30 shows that the Jains, who have 94.9 % literates, are followed by the Christians, whose literacy rate is 84.5%. The Buddhists have 81.3% literates, the Sikhs 75.4%, the Hindus 73.3%, and the Muslims 68.5%.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Sikhs overwhelmingly come from the state of Punjab. Punjab has the most fertile soil and is the best irrigated of all regions in the Indian subcontient, and lies adjacent to the capital territories of both India and Pakistan. That's why Punjab is probably one of India's wealthiest states, and is the dominant region within Pakistan.
    , @Reg Cæsar
    Forty-two quid, that's all they have to lose? No wonder they're blowing things up!
    , @PiltdownMan
    Those median net worth figures seem quite high, though not impossible. By contrast, US median net worth is way lower, at about $45,000, according to this article.

    I've haven't found any original source data, but this cnnmoney article provides some data.
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  201. MG says:

    Be skeptical of what you read in The Hindu in these matters. Doubly so when you encounter a name like “Tony Joseph.”

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  202. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anon
    Interesting topic.

    For the past few months, I've been learning classical Sanskrit using Coulson's 1976 book. Before I started Coulson's book, I was under the impression that Sanskrit was in some manner "close" to classical Greek. At this point, I don't see any connection between classical Greek and Sanskrit. I'm no philologist, though I used to be relatively fluent in classical Greek, so this observation could be very, very wrong.

    Also, last night until the wee hours, I was reading Anna Narriette Leonowens, "Life and Travel in India," a book so riveting and observant I couldn't put it down. Leonowens completely buys into the Aryan invasion scenario, one that she finds indisputable ... just as contemporary academics have their own, less plausible "givens." This book is available for free on Project Gutenberg, by the way, along with dozens of other colonist-era India narratives.

    Last week I read Walter Crane's, "India Impressions" -- a great book from the 1850s, or so. Leonowens wrote around 1900.

    Coulsen’s book is absolute crap, complete garbage. Like studying Shakespeare to learn English.

    I can see how it would spark an interest in IndoEuropean lingusitics, tho.

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  203. @guest
    John Cazale was plain weird-looking. For what it's worth, I think he was half-Irish/half-Italian.

    Pakis are weird looking too. Probably due to all the caste in-marriage, cousin marriage, and other forms of inbreeding.

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  204. @snorlax
    Yes, India has very poor nutrition in general which lowers IQs generally; but the higher castes have the worst nutrition of all, if only slightly.

    WRT Pakistan, Islam is a helluva drug (Muslims everywhere are consistently outscored by their non-Muslim geographic/genetic neighbors, as well as outperformed in general, e.g. in a series of wars the Muslim Arab/African mulatto North Sudanese have repeatedly had their asses kicked by the numerically-inferior, Christian entirely-African South Sudanese). Also, as others have said, the Dravidians of southern India have higher IQs than the northern part of the subcontinent (including Pakistan).

    Actually, given the widespread nutritional deprivation, I’d imagine the higher castes eat better. They have more money. In India, there’s a very large height difference between the economic classes.

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    • Replies: @rec1man
    The higher castes, brahmins and merchants are mostly vegetarian
    , @snorlax
    Wealthy carnivores eat better than wealthy vegetarians who eat better than poor carnivores who eat better than poor vegetarians. Of those four groups only the first is at all likely to get adequate nutrition from their diet such that they reach their full IQ potential, and my guess is that group mostly belongs to the lower or at least non-Brahmin castes.
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  205. rec1man says:
    @Anonymous
    India doesn't follow the simple pattern that tends to obtain elsewhere with respect to things like IQ. South Indian Dravidians with very dark skin and Caucasoid features tend to have the highest IQs. Those long names with many syllables are Dravidian names, like Ramanujan. While the groups in the northeast towards Pakistan with lighter skin and Indo-European names tend to have lower IQs.

    Ramanujam is a Sanskrit word and he was a South Indian Brahmin, ( Tamil Brahmin Iyengar )

    Per Razib, South Indian Brahmins can be modeled as a blend of 75% North Indian Brahmin and 25% Forward Caste Dravidian

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  206. @gcochran
    " IQ scores of early 20th century Euro immigrants were about a standard deviation below the White mean."


    It's called learning English.

    70% of Irish immigrants spoke English. Among those IQ tested, I’d expect the percentage was even higher.

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    • Replies: @TWS
    My grandparents spoke Irish at home. Most of the Irish families did where they lived. But they spoke English pretty well.
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  207. @Weltanschauung
    Not as bad as a parenthetical I saw in a Scientific American article announcing some recent result in number theory:

    primes (whole numbers that cannot be expressed as the products of smaller whole numbers)
     
    If you needed the parenthetical note, you probably aren't getting much out of the article.

    I went to an auto detailing shop today to see what they could do for my car. Was greeted by a highly demonstrative black employee. He said their work includes an “ozone treatment” and asked me if I knew what that was.

    I said I didn’t.

    He said, “It’s like OZOOOONE, dat treat yo car” along with some hand gestures conveying strength and penetration.

    I said okay now I get it.

    Black parentheticals FTW.

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    • Replies: @snorlax
    About a month after I bought my current car (used), it started smelling strongly of cigarette ash, which the dealership must've somehow temporarily removed or mask. Anyway I was complaining to my friend who manages the service department at a different car dealership, and he (great guy) said to bring it in and he'd do an ozone treatment on the house that would completely eliminate the smell. And it did; it's over a year later and it still smells better than when I bought it.

    So, unlike most things the dealer tries to sell you on, OZOOOONE treatment is worth it if you've got any cigarette/dog/spilled drink/bodily fluid/musty smells. (And like when a loud noise stops or you take a piss, getting rid of a persistent bad smell is a nice relief even/especially if you weren't consciously aware of your discomfort before). Don't remember what it would've cost if I'd had to pay, but I believe it wasn't that bad.
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  208. rec1man says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Actually, given the widespread nutritional deprivation, I'd imagine the higher castes eat better. They have more money. In India, there's a very large height difference between the economic classes.

    The higher castes, brahmins and merchants are mostly vegetarian

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  209. @snorlax
    See my subsequent post (the other reply besides yours) about other factors that artificially decrease high-caste Indian IQ relative to lower castes.

    But also national IQ studies can be of dubious quality. That list of IQ studies by country that's popular in HBD circles contains quite a few clearly-nonsensical results, including something like 88 for Ireland, which can be disproven by using your eyes and comparing the living standards in Ireland to actual average-IQ-88 locations (e.g. Mexico City, Detroit, Beirut).

    And one of the lowest scores in Africa (and therefore the world) for Ethiopia, which makes no sense given they were one of the earliest civilizations, whom the Greeks and Romans considered a near-peer, created some fairly-impressive architecture, maintained their independence the longest of any people on the continent, defeated the Italians the first time around and put up a decent fight the second, are alone among the peoples of black Africa in creating a decent national cuisine, and are known (relatively-speaking) for an entrepreneurial streak as immigrants.

    And something in the low 90's for Israel (Jews only) which is very hard to believe even accounting for the Mizrahim and Haredim. And the figures in the 70's for South Asia are likewise hard to believe given how many have become well-known and genuinely-respected figures in STEM, medicine, high finance and as business executives, and that without (in America, Britain is a different story) being graded on a curve like NAMs are.

    And so on.

    But also national IQ studies can be of dubious quality. That list of IQ studies by country that’s popular in HBD circles contains quite a few clearly-nonsensical results, including something like 88 for Ireland, which can be disproven by using your eyes and comparing the living standards in Ireland to actual average-IQ-88 locations (e.g. Mexico City, Detroit, Beirut).

    Ron Unz has an article on how Irish IQ has risen significantly over the last several decades.

    Many HBDers believe that high-IQ creates prosperity. Ron Unz has, convicingly, made the opposite case: prosperity creates high-IQ. As Ireland has prospered, its national IQ has risen.

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-irish-iq-chinese-iq/

    For example, when I pointed out that Lynn had devoted many years of personal research in Ireland and eventually concluded that they were clearly a low-IQ race, several commenters angrily denounced Lynn, one going so far as to call him an anti-Irish bigot of KKK- or Nazi-like proportions. But if so many people want to attack the Irish Front of my analysis, and suggest I’m just dishonestly cherry-picking the data to fabricate a fraudulent case, perhaps we should indeed take a closer look at the Great Irish IQ Question.

    First, Lynn was hardly unique among leading IQ experts in characterizing the Irish as being low IQ. For example, Hans Eysenck, one of the foremost IQ researchers of the 20th century said exactly the same thing in his 1971 book “Race, Intelligence, & Education,” claiming that the Irish IQ was very close to that of American blacks, and that the Irish/English IQ gap was almost exactly the same size as the black/white gap in the U.S., being roughly a full standard deviation. Eysenck’s stated position unsurprisingly caused a considerable furor in the British media, including all sorts of angry responses and even (facetious) threats of violence. So the huge and apparently well-designed 1972 study of 3,466 Irish schoolchildren which placed the mean Irish IQ at just 87 hardly seems an absurd outlier

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    • Replies: @gcochran
    "Ron Unz has, convincingly, "

    Nope.
    , @Anon
    The Irish underwent a period of 1000 years of getting the short end of the stick. Irish peasants were forced off their lands--everyone knows about the Scottish land clearances, but it was worse in Ireland, and it started much earlier--and Ireland was a country known for having a native middle and upper class that still weren't terribly well off. The people who had the money were the great English landowners.

    In the 1800s, mass starvation was common for Irish people even outside of the Potato Famine. Every year, there was a period of time after you planted potatos but before the crop developed to the point where you could harvest where it was normal to go hungry.

    The Irish in the 1800s probably were-per average citizen-the most malnourished country on the planet, and they are not properly a represenative sample of anything. In that time period, many native cultures outside of Europe were still undisturbed by Western contact and they were able to eat a varied and wholesome natural diet. The only people as badly off as the Irish in the 1800s would have been the lower classes in the big cities such as China or India.

    Poor nutrition on that scale will definitely have a bad effect on your country's average IQ.

    By the way, I investigated the effect of nutrition on IQ some years ago, and the information I gleaned was that it accounted for about an average of 10 IQ points. However, American blacks are a standard deviation below whites in IQ, and that's more like 17 points instead of 10.

    The one nutritional effect that no one mentions, and which has been inadequately calibrated for in IQ testing is iodine. Lack of iodine in the diet can produce cretinism and a low IQ. Iodine uptake is blocked if you eat foods loaded with goitrogens. Some of the most goiterogentic foods in the human diet are cassava, sweet potatos, and yams. These three foods happen to be a staple in the African diet, and Africans eat huge amounts of them. There's some chance that mass ingestion of goitrogens is having a negative effect on African IQ.

    However, these three items are not staples in the diets of American blacks, and they still have that IQ gap that's a standard deviation below that of whites.

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  210. rec1man says:
    @snorlax
    Yes, India has very poor nutrition in general which lowers IQs generally; but the higher castes have the worst nutrition of all, if only slightly.

    WRT Pakistan, Islam is a helluva drug (Muslims everywhere are consistently outscored by their non-Muslim geographic/genetic neighbors, as well as outperformed in general, e.g. in a series of wars the Muslim Arab/African mulatto North Sudanese have repeatedly had their asses kicked by the numerically-inferior, Christian entirely-African South Sudanese). Also, as others have said, the Dravidians of southern India have higher IQs than the northern part of the subcontinent (including Pakistan).

    There are high and low IQ castes in both North and South India

    In the Southern state of Tamil Nadu, the 98% Dravidians have a 69% quota to protect themselves from the 2% Tamil Brahmins ( mostly migrants from North India )

    In Karnataka ( Bangalore ), the dravidians have a 73% quota to protect themselves from local brahmins

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  211. @matt

    Since the 1960s there has been all manner of attempts and billions of dollars spent to level “the gap”, and it has been a dismal failure.
     
    There's a good deal of evidence that the gap closed considerably during the 20th century, though I don't think that has much to do with educational spending since the Great Society.

    We are expected to believe that in all the sub-Saharan cultures around the world, including the ones where there are only SSAs, that it is all the case of the environment dragging the black man down, and that it is only the environment of the white man that is the difference
     
    Given that sub-Saharan Africa is rife with parasites and nutritional problems, and sub-Saharan populations everywhere else started as slave communities, I'm not sure why it should be a priori surprising that sub-Saharan African populations all around the world would have depressed average IQs. In any case, it may not be universally true, anyway.

    If only the blacks had that magical parenting touch of the white man! Maybe it even starts in the womb. But not one moment earlier than conception!
     
    If you have some actual data you'd like to discuss, feel free to present it. If you have only slogans and catchphrases, you might want to stay silent.

    You forgot to mention epigenetics. Shame on you!

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    • Replies: @matt
    More catchphrases. Yawn.
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  212. matt says:
    @Peripatetic commenter
    You forgot to mention epigenetics. Shame on you!

    More catchphrases. Yawn.

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  213. res says:
    @matt

    Since the 1960s there has been all manner of attempts and billions of dollars spent to level “the gap”, and it has been a dismal failure.
     
    There's a good deal of evidence that the gap closed considerably during the 20th century, though I don't think that has much to do with educational spending since the Great Society.

    We are expected to believe that in all the sub-Saharan cultures around the world, including the ones where there are only SSAs, that it is all the case of the environment dragging the black man down, and that it is only the environment of the white man that is the difference
     
    Given that sub-Saharan Africa is rife with parasites and nutritional problems, and sub-Saharan populations everywhere else started as slave communities, I'm not sure why it should be a priori surprising that sub-Saharan African populations all around the world would have depressed average IQs. In any case, it may not be universally true, anyway.

    If only the blacks had that magical parenting touch of the white man! Maybe it even starts in the womb. But not one moment earlier than conception!
     
    If you have some actual data you'd like to discuss, feel free to present it. If you have only slogans and catchphrases, you might want to stay silent.

    If you have some actual data you’d like to discuss, feel free to present it. If you have only slogans and catchphrases, you might want to stay silent.

    Cool. Let’s do that. The two pieces of data I find most compelling about the black white gap in the US having a significant non-environmental (i.e. genetic) component are:

    1. Data showing blacks with a family income of over $200k barely scoring higher on the SAT than whites with a family income of under $20k. Along with a consistent black-white gap of 143-180 points at each income level.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/2008-sat-scores-by-race-by-income/

    2. Recent research that shows the relative frequencies of IQ related SNPs found in GWAS have a high correlation with measured IQ by country.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/genetics-of-racial-differences-in-intelligence-updated/

    (further discussion in more recent posts in Dr. Thompson’s blog)

    Looking forward to seeing that expertise you claimed in comment 181.

    P.S. If you want more data, here is a study looking at how European admixture correlates with IQ:

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/admixture-in-americas-european/

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    • Replies: @matt

    1. Data showing blacks with a family income of over $200k barely scoring higher on the SAT than whites with a family income of under $20k. Along with a consistent black-white gap of 143-180 points at each income level.
     
    This has long been one of the most compelling pieces of evidence the hereditarians have cited. If the only environmental explanation for the IQ gap had to exclusively invoke income differences, it would be decisive. However, I tend to agree with Flynn that the gap is caused by an non-mainstream subculture prevalent among African Americans.

    In this context, it's interesting to note a study (Moore 1986) that found 13.5 point IQ gap between black children adopted by black parents and black children adopted by white parents (almost the size of the black-white gap), in favor of the white-adopted children. The mothers were matched for years of education, a proxy for class status. In other words, although half the children in this sample were raised by upper-middle class black parents, they scored almost a full standard deviation below black children raised by upper middle class white parents. When Moore interviewed the parents and watched them interact with their children, she found substantial differences in parenting styles between the black and white parents.

    The sample size was admittedly small (N = 46), so I don't claim that this finding is anything more than suggestive of a hypothesis that should be further tested.

    2. Recent research that shows the relative frequencies of IQ related SNPs found in GWAS have a high correlation with measured IQ by country. Looking forward to seeing that expertise you claimed in comment 181.
     
    Of course, I never claimed expertise, only that I knew more than Steve. Since Steve wouldn't claim to be an expert either, I don't know how you determined that I claim expertise. In any case, there is little I can add to this ongoing debate. I will say that there has been a fair deal of skepticism expressed toward these results by actual experts, and I would like to see the result peer-reviewed and published (preferably somewhere other than Mankind Quarterly) before drawing any conclusions about it. I will also note that the country IQ data is pretty spotty, especially when it comes to sub-Saharan Africa.

    P.S. If you want more data, here is a study looking at how European admixture correlates with IQ:
     
    You should actually read that study (I'll be sporting and leave aside the fact that it was published in MQ). You'll find some very interesting things. For instance, on p. 332:

    In Section 11, we saw some fairly odd findings for European ancestry in the United States. It seems that parasite load is so correlated with European ancestry (r = -.88, weighted r = -.82) that multiple regressions cannot disentangle the effects. Two variables that correlate at .88 share 77% (.882) of their variance, which of course means that 23% is not shared. One can check if the remaining variance has predictive power for both dependent variables. We did this by calculating the semi-partial correlations where we first regress out either European ancestry or parasite load and then correlate the residuals with the remaining variable.... What we see is that for cognitive ability scores, European ancestry seems to have a small amount of validity controlling for parasite load (.22), while the opposite case did not hold (-.05). For S we see the opposite pattern, parasite prevalence seems to have some validity controlling for European ancestry (-.25), while European ancestry has none controlling for parasite prevalence (-.07; wrong direction!). The confidence intervals include 0 for all cases, however.
     
    The authors later published a follow-up study looking only at the United States. Here's what they found when examining African admixture in Hispanics (595):

    For Hispanics, as expected, Amerindian ancestry is negatively associated with [cognitive and socioeconomic] outcomes. However, unexpectedly, African ancestry is positively so associated. As shown in Table 5, the standard deviation of African admixture is about the same as that for Amerindian admixture, so the results are not dismissible on the grounds of low variation.
     
    The authors then ran some multiple regressions until they got the result they wanted for cognitive ability. However, they didn't get the result they wanted for SES (597-598):

    Unexpectedly, again, African% is a positive predictor even in the company of other predictors. Moreover, the size of the beta is larger than that for European%.
     
    They attempt to blame this result on unassigned admixture for the Hispanic sample (594, 598). However, turning to the study from which they drew this sample, we find that the reason for high "unassigned" ancestry in Hispanics is "because our ancestry estimation method conservatively assigns Native American ancestry conservatively" and had difficulty distinguishing Native American from East Asian ancestry. It had no problem assigning African or European ancestry.
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  214. snorlax says:
    @matt
    Whenever the data doesn't fit your hypothesis, you "use your eyes" and your mystical intuition instead. Perhaps throw in a pithy catchphrase or two. Got it.

    Yes, when one is presented with data, one of the most important heuristics to assess their quality is to use one’s common sense to assess whether they square with known, clearly-observable reality.[1] Practices along these lines are known as “abstract thinking,” which is among the variables IQ tests attempt to measure.

    Part of known, clearly-observable reality is naturally the existing data, which show 1) excluding the Irish, every Western European nationality virtually always averages in the 97-103 range in IQ studies, 2) besides the outlier I mentioned that appears in the widely-circulated list, Irish IQ studies also average in that range.[2]

    Further, the Irish standard of living and the advancement and diversification of their economy is not only among the highest in the world but among the highest in Western Europe. Their performance on g-loaded educational measures such as PISA scores tend towards the high end of the Western European average. Intel, which does not hire stupid people, put its third major engineering wing, after Santa Clara and Haifa, in County Kildare.

    So given the obvious facts of observable reality, it’s clear that either the 88-IQ study was an outlier, with an unrepresentatively dim-witted sample[3], or the researchers made an error in calculating or averaging the scores, or the average was mistranscribed (98->88) somewhere along the line, or it was of an intentionally-unrepresentative sample[4] which was missed by whoever compiled the list, or whoever compiled the list[5] dislikes the Irish for whatever reason and made up a fake study or found the lowest outlier they could to include.

    If the result were generally-accurate and repeatable, which again is very doubtful, it would not be evidence for the dim-wittedness of the people of Ireland so much as evidence against, depending on how strong a thesis can be drawn from the corroborating data, IQ as a proxy for intelligence, the quality of current methods of IQ testing, or the quality of the specific IQ test used in this instance.

    Were that the case it might additionally give us insight into the causes of the Flynn effect, as Ireland’s predominantly-rural population densities and (at least until recently) adherence to the social norms of devout Catholicism resemble the environment early IQ test-takers were raised in.

    [1] Which is of course a heuristic that can often identify bad data, but not whether it’s actually good.

    [2] I haven’t actually checked this, because I used abstract thinking to intuit it’s the case. If you want citations Unz has plenty of crazy Irish[-American] nationalists who I’m sure will be able to dig up reams of them, so I can’t quite work up the motivation to do it myself. But sight-unseen I’d bet the house on it.

    [3] Which the law of averages mandates must happen from time to time when sampling at random, especially with low N’s.

    [4] e.g. dyslexics, dementia sufferers, ESLs

    [5] Which as I said contains some other headscratchers.

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  215. snorlax says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Actually, given the widespread nutritional deprivation, I'd imagine the higher castes eat better. They have more money. In India, there's a very large height difference between the economic classes.

    Wealthy carnivores eat better than wealthy vegetarians who eat better than poor carnivores who eat better than poor vegetarians. Of those four groups only the first is at all likely to get adequate nutrition from their diet such that they reach their full IQ potential, and my guess is that group mostly belongs to the lower or at least non-Brahmin castes.

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  216. K says:
    @rec1man
    Indian IQ , vs caste, based on 2016, CA National Merit

    Total Indian winners = 275

    South Indian Brahmins = 90
    North Indian Brahmins = 30

    North Indian merchants = 60
    Forward Caste Dravidians = 60
    ( forward caste dravidians do exist, about 20% have been co-opted by brahmins )

    Jat Sikhs ( the most Aryan of any caste ) = 3
    Patel = 4

    CA national merit for previous years, show the same pattern

    Affirmative Action has been there for 100 years in India, with no sign of closing the gap

    Rec1man,

    If you keep posting those kinds of caste comments people will wrongly think all indians are casteist and they only care about defending their caste and not their country. So stop with the caste posts and defend your country (not your caste) if somebody projects it in the wrong way.

    Country comes first not caste.

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  217. gcochran says:
    @JohnnyWalker123

    But also national IQ studies can be of dubious quality. That list of IQ studies by country that’s popular in HBD circles contains quite a few clearly-nonsensical results, including something like 88 for Ireland, which can be disproven by using your eyes and comparing the living standards in Ireland to actual average-IQ-88 locations (e.g. Mexico City, Detroit, Beirut).

     

    Ron Unz has an article on how Irish IQ has risen significantly over the last several decades.

    Many HBDers believe that high-IQ creates prosperity. Ron Unz has, convicingly, made the opposite case: prosperity creates high-IQ. As Ireland has prospered, its national IQ has risen.

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-irish-iq-chinese-iq/

    For example, when I pointed out that Lynn had devoted many years of personal research in Ireland and eventually concluded that they were clearly a low-IQ race, several commenters angrily denounced Lynn, one going so far as to call him an anti-Irish bigot of KKK- or Nazi-like proportions. But if so many people want to attack the Irish Front of my analysis, and suggest I’m just dishonestly cherry-picking the data to fabricate a fraudulent case, perhaps we should indeed take a closer look at the Great Irish IQ Question.

    First, Lynn was hardly unique among leading IQ experts in characterizing the Irish as being low IQ. For example, Hans Eysenck, one of the foremost IQ researchers of the 20th century said exactly the same thing in his 1971 book “Race, Intelligence, & Education,” claiming that the Irish IQ was very close to that of American blacks, and that the Irish/English IQ gap was almost exactly the same size as the black/white gap in the U.S., being roughly a full standard deviation. Eysenck’s stated position unsurprisingly caused a considerable furor in the British media, including all sorts of angry responses and even (facetious) threats of violence. So the huge and apparently well-designed 1972 study of 3,466 Irish schoolchildren which placed the mean Irish IQ at just 87 hardly seems an absurd outlier
     

    “Ron Unz has, convincingly, ”

    Nope.

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  218. snorlax says:
    @Almost Missouri
    I went to an auto detailing shop today to see what they could do for my car. Was greeted by a highly demonstrative black employee. He said their work includes an "ozone treatment" and asked me if I knew what that was.

    I said I didn't.

    He said, "It's like OZOOOONE, dat treat yo car" along with some hand gestures conveying strength and penetration.

    I said okay now I get it.

    Black parentheticals FTW.

    About a month after I bought my current car (used), it started smelling strongly of cigarette ash, which the dealership must’ve somehow temporarily removed or mask. Anyway I was complaining to my friend who manages the service department at a different car dealership, and he (great guy) said to bring it in and he’d do an ozone treatment on the house that would completely eliminate the smell. And it did; it’s over a year later and it still smells better than when I bought it.

    So, unlike most things the dealer tries to sell you on, OZOOOONE treatment is worth it if you’ve got any cigarette/dog/spilled drink/bodily fluid/musty smells. (And like when a loud noise stops or you take a piss, getting rid of a persistent bad smell is a nice relief even/especially if you weren’t consciously aware of your discomfort before). Don’t remember what it would’ve cost if I’d had to pay, but I believe it wasn’t that bad.

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  219. K says:
    @Logan
    One of the oddest things I've run across is the fact that many Indians are offended by the idea that Aryans invaded India thousands of years ago, bringing the main languages and the basics of Indian civilization.

    This is odd because the commonly accepted theory is that the Aryans originated somewhere north of the Black or Caspian Seas where they split, with one group going east and south into India and the other west and south into Europe.

    As far as I know Europeans have never been offended by this idea. So why are Indians upset by it?

    Firstly because there are many holes in the theory. It still doesnt hold up to scientific rigor. Were those gene findings independantly verified by a third party? Who funded the study? Was it peer reviewed? Who peer-reviewed the study? How many peer- reviewed the study. What was the sample size of the study? You cant determine the genes of a billion using just a few thousand people.

    Secondly because, indians often get lampooned for their lack of scientific discoveries and inventions (modern). ( I saw a comment on this very site itself a few days back by somebody which said that indians and chinese cant even invent a toilet bowl by themselves!) So inorder to defend against those kind of comments they try to show their ancient discoveries and inventions (because they only have those to show for now). And when they show them, people find some way to say that it came from the outside. This upsets indians.

    Damn if they do, damn if they dont.

    Also somebody here said indians created the OIT theory. But it also was only done as a ‘response’ to theories that said every thing good about india came from outside india.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Logan
    I was contrasting the offended reaction by Indians to the Aryan invasion theory to the non-offended reaction by Europeans to the essentially identical theory that European languages and (possibly) peoples are descended from invaders.

    The two theories are remarkably similar. Indians - offended. Europeans - not offended.

    We could also pitch in Iranians, who are not, to my knowledge anyway, offended by the idea that Persians/Medes were invaders from the north and west.

    I just don't get why the Aryan invasion theory is offensive when the notion that Greeks and Italians were invaders is not.

    I am not commenting on whether the theory or this study is true, which has nothing to do with whether someone chooses to find it offensive.

    I also find the Out of India Theory hilarious because we have historical records of multiple groups invading out of Central Asia into India: Persians, Greeks, Sakas, Parthians, Kushans, multiple invasions by Afghans and Muslims, Moguls, etc. to name just some. AFAIK we have zero records of historical invasions out of India going the other direction.
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  220. matt says:
    @res

    If you have some actual data you’d like to discuss, feel free to present it. If you have only slogans and catchphrases, you might want to stay silent.
     
    Cool. Let's do that. The two pieces of data I find most compelling about the black white gap in the US having a significant non-environmental (i.e. genetic) component are:

    1. Data showing blacks with a family income of over $200k barely scoring higher on the SAT than whites with a family income of under $20k. Along with a consistent black-white gap of 143-180 points at each income level.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/2008-sat-scores-by-race-by-income/

    2. Recent research that shows the relative frequencies of IQ related SNPs found in GWAS have a high correlation with measured IQ by country.

    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/genetics-of-racial-differences-in-intelligence-updated/
    (further discussion in more recent posts in Dr. Thompson's blog)

    Looking forward to seeing that expertise you claimed in comment 181.

    P.S. If you want more data, here is a study looking at how European admixture correlates with IQ:
    http://www.unz.com/jthompson/admixture-in-americas-european/

    1. Data showing blacks with a family income of over $200k barely scoring higher on the SAT than whites with a family income of under $20k. Along with a consistent black-white gap of 143-180 points at each income level.

    This has long been one of the most compelling pieces of evidence the hereditarians have cited. If the only environmental explanation for the IQ gap had to exclusively invoke income differences, it would be decisive. However, I tend to agree with Flynn that the gap is caused by an non-mainstream subculture prevalent among African Americans.

    In this context, it’s interesting to note a study (Moore 1986) that found 13.5 point IQ gap between black children adopted by black parents and black children adopted by white parents (almost the size of the black-white gap), in favor of the white-adopted children. The mothers were matched for years of education, a proxy for class status. In other words, although half the children in this sample were raised by upper-middle class black parents, they scored almost a full standard deviation below black children raised by upper middle class white parents. When Moore interviewed the parents and watched them interact with their children, she found substantial differences in parenting styles between the black and white parents.

    The sample size was admittedly small (N = 46), so I don’t claim that this finding is anything more than suggestive of a hypothesis that should be further tested.

    2. Recent research that shows the relative frequencies of IQ related SNPs found in GWAS have a high correlation with measured IQ by country. Looking forward to seeing that expertise you claimed in comment 181.

    Of course, I never claimed expertise, only that I knew more than Steve. Since Steve wouldn’t claim to be an expert either, I don’t know how you determined that I claim expertise. In any case, there is little I can add to this ongoing debate. I will say that there has been a fair deal of skepticism expressed toward these results by actual experts, and I would like to see the result peer-reviewed and published (preferably somewhere other than Mankind Quarterly) before drawing any conclusions about it. I will also note that the country IQ data is pretty spotty, especially when it comes to sub-Saharan Africa.

    P.S. If you want more data, here is a study looking at how European admixture correlates with IQ:

    You should actually read that study (I’ll be sporting and leave aside the fact that it was published in MQ). You’ll find some very interesting things. For instance, on p. 332:

    In Section 11, we saw some fairly odd findings for European ancestry in the United States. It seems that parasite load is so correlated with European ancestry (r = -.88, weighted r = -.82) that multiple regressions cannot disentangle the effects. Two variables that correlate at .88 share 77% (.882) of their variance, which of course means that 23% is not shared. One can check if the remaining variance has predictive power for both dependent variables. We did this by calculating the semi-partial correlations where we first regress out either European ancestry or parasite load and then correlate the residuals with the remaining variable…. What we see is that for cognitive ability scores, European ancestry seems to have a small amount of validity controlling for parasite load (.22), while the opposite case did not hold (-.05). For S we see the opposite pattern, parasite prevalence seems to have some validity controlling for European ancestry (-.25), while European ancestry has none controlling for parasite prevalence (-.07; wrong direction!). The confidence intervals include 0 for all cases, however.

    The authors later published a follow-up study looking only at the United States. Here’s what they found when examining African admixture in Hispanics (595):

    For Hispanics, as expected, Amerindian ancestry is negatively associated with [cognitive and socioeconomic] outcomes. However, unexpectedly, African ancestry is positively so associated. As shown in Table 5, the standard deviation of African admixture is about the same as that for Amerindian admixture, so the results are not dismissible on the grounds of low variation.

    The authors then ran some multiple regressions until they got the result they wanted for cognitive ability. However, they didn’t get the result they wanted for SES (597-598):

    Unexpectedly, again, African% is a positive predictor even in the company of other predictors. Moreover, the size of the beta is larger than that for European%.

    They attempt to blame this result on unassigned admixture for the Hispanic sample (594, 598). However, turning to the study from which they drew this sample, we find that the reason for high “unassigned” ancestry in Hispanics is “because our ancestry estimation method conservatively assigns Native American ancestry conservatively” and had difficulty distinguishing Native American from East Asian ancestry. It had no problem assigning African or European ancestry.

    Read More
    • Replies: @res

    This has long been one of the most compelling pieces of evidence the hereditarians have cited. If the only environmental explanation for the IQ gap had to exclusively invoke income differences, it would be decisive. However, I tend to agree with Flynn that the gap is caused by an non-mainstream subculture prevalent among African Americans.
     
    You do understand that neither I nor (I believe) any of the researchers I have mentioned is claiming the gap is 100% genetic and 0% environmental. This tendency to resort to false dichotomies is one of the most annoying things about discussing the genetic/environmental breakdown of the gap. And yes, that "non-mainstream subculture" (nice euphemism for extreme dysfunctionality) is a problem (of course that leads into discussions of how much of that is due to non-IQ genetics).

    Let's return to the actual argument at hand here. In comment 124 you asserted:

    I can say that at present the balance of evidence suggests that it is more likely than not that, in the same environment, white and black Americans would develop the same phenotypic IQ.
     
    Given "same" I take it you are arguing for a 0% genetic contribution. If that is not so please clarify what you meant by that statement.

    I don't see how you can believe that given the evidence I cited. If nothing else it is absolutely clear that IQ SNPs discovered so far differ in frequency between African and European populations. It is highly unlikely that allows for a genetic contribution of exactly 0.

    Thanks for engaging in a reasonable fashion. Hope you are around for follow up as more genetic data comes in. Would you care to place any bets on the outcome?

    P.S. Do you believe researchers in the peer reviewed literature are being both honest and fully forthcoming about this issue? Have you been following the Vox/Charles Murray kerfuffle? It is amazing what supposedly serious academics are willing to say. Sometimes I think I am overly attached to this issue, but I really hate being lied to. Especially when it is done by people who are supposedly scientists.
    , @Peripatetic commenter

    This has long been one of the most compelling pieces of evidence the hereditarians have cited. If the only environmental explanation for the IQ gap had to exclusively invoke income differences, it would be decisive. However, I tend to agree with Flynn that the gap is caused by an non-mainstream subculture prevalent among African Americans.
     
    Ahhh, yes. So in America we have managed to trick African Americans into adopting a sub-culture that depresses their IQ.

    I guess they must be hiding their rocket scientists in Africa somewhere.

    I'll spell it out more simply for you. A group that can be tricked into adopting a maladaptive culture is a group that is going to go extinct.

    You forgot to invoke Stereotype Threat as well.
     
     
     

    , @Reg Cæsar

    I will also note that the country IQ data is pretty spotty, especially when it comes to sub-Saharan Africa
     
    Vitiligo is found inside the skull, too?

    In other words, although half the children in this sample were raised by upper-middle class black parents, they scored almost a full standard deviation below black children raised by upper middle class white parents
     
    And as with "donor-conceived" children, they're smart enough to figure out there's something wrong with the way they were brought up.
    , @namae nanka
    The Moore study isn't a worthwhile evidence for the environmental side, and even if it were, it would be highly amusing to blame black 'underperformance' on white racism while touting white mothers as the best for a black child,

    Sure the Moore (1986) results which are lauded as proof of racial environmental determinism weren’t significantly different from zero, but they also weren’t significantly different from a genetic hypothesis’s predictions (genetic d =1). (And using one tail tests while increased the WGH to 0.5 didn’t remedy the lack of significant effects.)
     
    https://z139.wordpress.com/2012/12/13/falsely-reported-negatives/

    "Of course, I never claimed expertise, only that I knew more than Steve. "

    No you don't. And you never would if your reply to my previous comment is any indication.

    If the black-white gap has closed for the past few decades, it's because whites at similar ability as blacks get poorer environment and watering down of educational standards in US which has the same effect as hitting the whites kids on the head with a ballpeen hammer..
    , @Hippopotamusdrome


    found 13.5 point IQ gap between black children adopted by black parents and black children adopted by white parents

     

    IQ was tested at what age? Was it at a young age or at adult age? The IQ boost of children can dissapear when they reach adulthood.

    I think whites might select lighter skinned black babies more than black parents would. The white parents would then have black babies with higher white admixture. Black parents might even select against lighter skinned black babies. Blacks are notorious racists.
    , @Hippopotamusdrome


    This study examines the response styles to cognitive demands of the Wechsler Intelligence Scale for Children (WISC) exhibited by two groups of adopted black children, aged from 7 to 10 years at the time of testing, and their average IQ

     

    Their IQ was tested at age 7. There was no follow up IQ test when they were adults, possibly with good reason. Also, would any researcher ever dare publish a study showing blacks have lower IQ?
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  221. Selvar says:
    @kihowi
    That reminds me of the best question to ask a feminist: When in history have two armies of women fought each other?

    Well, ISIS has its own female fighters (the Al-Khansaa Brigade) that they’ve been increasingly putting into combat as their military situation has deteriorated. Meanwhile the Kurds have their own female units as part of the YPG. They’ve probably bumped into each other once or twice.

    Read More
    • Replies: @guest
    "the Kurds have their own female units"

    I watched an indie lefty news outlet cream itself over that fact in a short segment. I thought only neocons cared about the Gallant Kurd, our ally for some reason. But they've got combat equality (not really, but you can see girls with guns in harm's way, so close enough), and no story is so interesting as a diversity is awesome story. (Except nearly every other story I can think of, but I'm not the intended audience.)
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  222. K says:
    @Anonymous
    I'm a South Indian Tamil Brahmin. Other South Indian castes consider us Aryan, North Indians consider us Dravidian, and my community really is sort of in the middle. We speak a Sanskritized (i.e Aryanized) register of Tamil (a Dravidian language). We are lighter-skinned than many other South Indian castes, but darker-skinned than most North Indians. Genetic tests confirm we are closer to West Eurasians than other South Indian castes, but not as close to West Eurasians as most North Indian castes.

    I do think Dravidian Brahmins have evidence for higher intellectual achievement than most other communities, both Aryan and Dravidian. Tamil Brahmins form only 0.2% of India's population, but three of the five Indian Nobel prize winners in science/economics come from that community. The former World Chess Champion Vishwanathan Anand is a Tamil Brahmin. Google CEO Sundar Pichai and Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella are both Dravidian Brahmins.

    My personal hypothesis is that this is a result of a founder effect - high-achieving Aryan Brahmins from the North came to the South as priests and teachers, just like high-achieving Indians travel to the US today. And then they intermarried with pre-existing intellectual classes in the native Dravidian society, which was fairly advanced in its own way.

    There is no convincing evidence that the Indus Valley civilization was Dravidian. We have little idea of what language the Indus Valley people spoke. There are several findings that suggest cultural continuity with Hinduism, though, including veneration of fig trees, bulls and some yoga poses.

    There is little in modern India to give credence to theories of Aryan supremacy, though. The Dravidian South Indian states outperform the majority of the Aryan-speaking states of the North in pretty much every social and economic indicator. Much of this might be because of Muslim invaders wiping out the human capital in the North over the last thousand years, like Genghis Khan wiped out the human capital of Baghdad, but it's hard to say for certain.

    read comments above yours about IQ. Not every IQ is because of genes. Brahmins have a culture that stresses learning and memory. Brahmins have studied prayers for millenia while other caste didnt ‘study’ anything. So their brains have become more academically oriented than other castes.

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  223. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @JohnnyWalker123
    Here's a study on median net wealth by ethnicity/religion in the UK.

    White British -£221,000
    Indian - £204,000
    Pakistani - £97,000
    Other Asian - £50,000
    Black Caribbean - £76,000
    Black African - £21,000
    Bangladeshi - £15,000

    Jewish - £422,000
    Sikh - £229,000
    Christian - £223,000
    Hindu -£206,000
    Muslim - £42,00

    Here's what's interesting.

    The Sikhs mostly arrived in the UK as factory laborers. About a third of them were from the untouchable Sikh caste.

    Here are literacy rates by religion in India.

    The data released on December 30 shows that the Jains, who have 94.9 % literates, are followed by the Christians, whose literacy rate is 84.5%. The Buddhists have 81.3% literates, the Sikhs 75.4%, the Hindus 73.3%, and the Muslims 68.5%.

     

    Sikhs overwhelmingly come from the state of Punjab. Punjab has the most fertile soil and is the best irrigated of all regions in the Indian subcontient, and lies adjacent to the capital territories of both India and Pakistan. That’s why Punjab is probably one of India’s wealthiest states, and is the dominant region within Pakistan.

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  224. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @snorlax
    Yes, India has very poor nutrition in general which lowers IQs generally; but the higher castes have the worst nutrition of all, if only slightly.

    WRT Pakistan, Islam is a helluva drug (Muslims everywhere are consistently outscored by their non-Muslim geographic/genetic neighbors, as well as outperformed in general, e.g. in a series of wars the Muslim Arab/African mulatto North Sudanese have repeatedly had their asses kicked by the numerically-inferior, Christian entirely-African South Sudanese). Also, as others have said, the Dravidians of southern India have higher IQs than the northern part of the subcontinent (including Pakistan).

    Ramadan is hard on the development of a child’s brain, and it’s horrible for your blood sugar. It’s common in Islamic societies to break a Ramadan fast with a huge load of sugary dishes that are enough to make your pancreas keel over. Starving all day and then eating a ton of sugar is godawful for you.

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  225. guest says:
    @RaceRealist88
    The March of progress is a ridiculous notion which Gould was 100 percent correct to deride in numerous books and articles. Evolution is not "progressive".

    https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/11/12/complexity-walls-0-400-hitting-and-evolutionary-progress/

    I realize I did capitalize it, but I wasn’t thinking of the specific evolutionary March of Progress. I was thinking of the idea that with every new Current Year we get better, at least since the progressive movement. Which really has nothing to do with biological evolution.

    That was probably not the best way to put it in a thread about DNA and a post mentioning Gould.

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  226. res says:
    @matt

    1. Data showing blacks with a family income of over $200k barely scoring higher on the SAT than whites with a family income of under $20k. Along with a consistent black-white gap of 143-180 points at each income level.
     
    This has long been one of the most compelling pieces of evidence the hereditarians have cited. If the only environmental explanation for the IQ gap had to exclusively invoke income differences, it would be decisive. However, I tend to agree with Flynn that the gap is caused by an non-mainstream subculture prevalent among African Americans.

    In this context, it's interesting to note a study (Moore 1986) that found 13.5 point IQ gap between black children adopted by black parents and black children adopted by white parents (almost the size of the black-white gap), in favor of the white-adopted children. The mothers were matched for years of education, a proxy for class status. In other words, although half the children in this sample were raised by upper-middle class black parents, they scored almost a full standard deviation below black children raised by upper middle class white parents. When Moore interviewed the parents and watched them interact with their children, she found substantial differences in parenting styles between the black and white parents.

    The sample size was admittedly small (N = 46), so I don't claim that this finding is anything more than suggestive of a hypothesis that should be further tested.

    2. Recent research that shows the relative frequencies of IQ related SNPs found in GWAS have a high correlation with measured IQ by country. Looking forward to seeing that expertise you claimed in comment 181.
     
    Of course, I never claimed expertise, only that I knew more than Steve. Since Steve wouldn't claim to be an expert either, I don't know how you determined that I claim expertise. In any case, there is little I can add to this ongoing debate. I will say that there has been a fair deal of skepticism expressed toward these results by actual experts, and I would like to see the result peer-reviewed and published (preferably somewhere other than Mankind Quarterly) before drawing any conclusions about it. I will also note that the country IQ data is pretty spotty, especially when it comes to sub-Saharan Africa.

    P.S. If you want more data, here is a study looking at how European admixture correlates with IQ:
     
    You should actually read that study (I'll be sporting and leave aside the fact that it was published in MQ). You'll find some very interesting things. For instance, on p. 332:

    In Section 11, we saw some fairly odd findings for European ancestry in the United States. It seems that parasite load is so correlated with European ancestry (r = -.88, weighted r = -.82) that multiple regressions cannot disentangle the effects. Two variables that correlate at .88 share 77% (.882) of their variance, which of course means that 23% is not shared. One can check if the remaining variance has predictive power for both dependent variables. We did this by calculating the semi-partial correlations where we first regress out either European ancestry or parasite load and then correlate the residuals with the remaining variable.... What we see is that for cognitive ability scores, European ancestry seems to have a small amount of validity controlling for parasite load (.22), while the opposite case did not hold (-.05). For S we see the opposite pattern, parasite prevalence seems to have some validity controlling for European ancestry (-.25), while European ancestry has none controlling for parasite prevalence (-.07; wrong direction!). The confidence intervals include 0 for all cases, however.
     
    The authors later published a follow-up study looking only at the United States. Here's what they found when examining African admixture in Hispanics (595):

    For Hispanics, as expected, Amerindian ancestry is negatively associated with [cognitive and socioeconomic] outcomes. However, unexpectedly, African ancestry is positively so associated. As shown in Table 5, the standard deviation of African admixture is about the same as that for Amerindian admixture, so the results are not dismissible on the grounds of low variation.
     
    The authors then ran some multiple regressions until they got the result they wanted for cognitive ability. However, they didn't get the result they wanted for SES (597-598):

    Unexpectedly, again, African% is a positive predictor even in the company of other predictors. Moreover, the size of the beta is larger than that for European%.
     
    They attempt to blame this result on unassigned admixture for the Hispanic sample (594, 598). However, turning to the study from which they drew this sample, we find that the reason for high "unassigned" ancestry in Hispanics is "because our ancestry estimation method conservatively assigns Native American ancestry conservatively" and had difficulty distinguishing Native American from East Asian ancestry. It had no problem assigning African or European ancestry.

    This has long been one of the most compelling pieces of evidence the hereditarians have cited. If the only environmental explanation for the IQ gap had to exclusively invoke income differences, it would be decisive. However, I tend to agree with Flynn that the gap is caused by an non-mainstream subculture prevalent among African Americans.

    You do understand that neither I nor (I believe) any of the researchers I have mentioned is claiming the gap is 100% genetic and 0% environmental. This tendency to resort to false dichotomies is one of the most annoying things about discussing the genetic/environmental breakdown of the gap. And yes, that “non-mainstream subculture” (nice euphemism for extreme dysfunctionality) is a problem (of course that leads into discussions of how much of that is due to non-IQ genetics).

    Let’s return to the actual argument at hand here. In comment 124 you asserted:

    I can say that at present the balance of evidence suggests that it is more likely than not that, in the same environment, white and black Americans would develop the same phenotypic IQ.

    Given “same” I take it you are arguing for a 0% genetic contribution. If that is not so please clarify what you meant by that statement.

    I don’t see how you can believe that given the evidence I cited. If nothing else it is absolutely clear that IQ SNPs discovered so far differ in frequency between African and European populations. It is highly unlikely that allows for a genetic contribution of exactly 0.

    Thanks for engaging in a reasonable fashion. Hope you are around for follow up as more genetic data comes in. Would you care to place any bets on the outcome?

    P.S. Do you believe researchers in the peer reviewed literature are being both honest and fully forthcoming about this issue? Have you been following the Vox/Charles Murray kerfuffle? It is amazing what supposedly serious academics are willing to say. Sometimes I think I am overly attached to this issue, but I really hate being lied to. Especially when it is done by people who are supposedly scientists.

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  227. guest says:
    @matt

    Since the 1960s there has been all manner of attempts and billions of dollars spent to level “the gap”, and it has been a dismal failure.
     
    There's a good deal of evidence that the gap closed considerably during the 20th century, though I don't think that has much to do with educational spending since the Great Society.

    We are expected to believe that in all the sub-Saharan cultures around the world, including the ones where there are only SSAs, that it is all the case of the environment dragging the black man down, and that it is only the environment of the white man that is the difference
     
    Given that sub-Saharan Africa is rife with parasites and nutritional problems, and sub-Saharan populations everywhere else started as slave communities, I'm not sure why it should be a priori surprising that sub-Saharan African populations all around the world would have depressed average IQs. In any case, it may not be universally true, anyway.

    If only the blacks had that magical parenting touch of the white man! Maybe it even starts in the womb. But not one moment earlier than conception!
     
    If you have some actual data you'd like to discuss, feel free to present it. If you have only slogans and catchphrases, you might want to stay silent.

    “Enough with your catchphrases, buzzwords, half-truths, and gorilla dust! Show me your data, and your peer-reviewed journal articles. This is a hard science blog. Science, I say!”

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  228. @matt

    Since the 1960s there has been all manner of attempts and billions of dollars spent to level “the gap”, and it has been a dismal failure.
     
    There's a good deal of evidence that the gap closed considerably during the 20th century, though I don't think that has much to do with educational spending since the Great Society.

    We are expected to believe that in all the sub-Saharan cultures around the world, including the ones where there are only SSAs, that it is all the case of the environment dragging the black man down, and that it is only the environment of the white man that is the difference
     
    Given that sub-Saharan Africa is rife with parasites and nutritional problems, and sub-Saharan populations everywhere else started as slave communities, I'm not sure why it should be a priori surprising that sub-Saharan African populations all around the world would have depressed average IQs. In any case, it may not be universally true, anyway.

    If only the blacks had that magical parenting touch of the white man! Maybe it even starts in the womb. But not one moment earlier than conception!
     
    If you have some actual data you'd like to discuss, feel free to present it. If you have only slogans and catchphrases, you might want to stay silent.

    There’s a good deal of evidence that the gap closed considerably during the 20th century

    But it may be opening up again, thanks to the widening of that other gap– the one between the knees.

    Herrnstein and Murray gingerly hinted at this.

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  229. @JohnnyWalker123
    Here's a study on median net wealth by ethnicity/religion in the UK.

    White British -£221,000
    Indian - £204,000
    Pakistani - £97,000
    Other Asian - £50,000
    Black Caribbean - £76,000
    Black African - £21,000
    Bangladeshi - £15,000

    Jewish - £422,000
    Sikh - £229,000
    Christian - £223,000
    Hindu -£206,000
    Muslim - £42,00

    Here's what's interesting.

    The Sikhs mostly arrived in the UK as factory laborers. About a third of them were from the untouchable Sikh caste.

    Here are literacy rates by religion in India.

    The data released on December 30 shows that the Jains, who have 94.9 % literates, are followed by the Christians, whose literacy rate is 84.5%. The Buddhists have 81.3% literates, the Sikhs 75.4%, the Hindus 73.3%, and the Muslims 68.5%.

     

    Forty-two quid, that’s all they have to lose? No wonder they’re blowing things up!

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  230. anon says: • Disclaimer

    Ever see all of those boats of “refugees” in the Mediterranean sea? Ever notice how they are all males. Usually younger males of military age.

    This is just another invasion too. Europe is just too weak to stop it.

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  231. @matt

    1. Data showing blacks with a family income of over $200k barely scoring higher on the SAT than whites with a family income of under $20k. Along with a consistent black-white gap of 143-180 points at each income level.
     
    This has long been one of the most compelling pieces of evidence the hereditarians have cited. If the only environmental explanation for the IQ gap had to exclusively invoke income differences, it would be decisive. However, I tend to agree with Flynn that the gap is caused by an non-mainstream subculture prevalent among African Americans.

    In this context, it's interesting to note a study (Moore 1986) that found 13.5 point IQ gap between black children adopted by black parents and black children adopted by white parents (almost the size of the black-white gap), in favor of the white-adopted children. The mothers were matched for years of education, a proxy for class status. In other words, although half the children in this sample were raised by upper-middle class black parents, they scored almost a full standard deviation below black children raised by upper middle class white parents. When Moore interviewed the parents and watched them interact with their children, she found substantial differences in parenting styles between the black and white parents.

    The sample size was admittedly small (N = 46), so I don't claim that this finding is anything more than suggestive of a hypothesis that should be further tested.

    2. Recent research that shows the relative frequencies of IQ related SNPs found in GWAS have a high correlation with measured IQ by country. Looking forward to seeing that expertise you claimed in comment 181.
     
    Of course, I never claimed expertise, only that I knew more than Steve. Since Steve wouldn't claim to be an expert either, I don't know how you determined that I claim expertise. In any case, there is little I can add to this ongoing debate. I will say that there has been a fair deal of skepticism expressed toward these results by actual experts, and I would like to see the result peer-reviewed and published (preferably somewhere other than Mankind Quarterly) before drawing any conclusions about it. I will also note that the country IQ data is pretty spotty, especially when it comes to sub-Saharan Africa.

    P.S. If you want more data, here is a study looking at how European admixture correlates with IQ:
     
    You should actually read that study (I'll be sporting and leave aside the fact that it was published in MQ). You'll find some very interesting things. For instance, on p. 332:

    In Section 11, we saw some fairly odd findings for European ancestry in the United States. It seems that parasite load is so correlated with European ancestry (r = -.88, weighted r = -.82) that multiple regressions cannot disentangle the effects. Two variables that correlate at .88 share 77% (.882) of their variance, which of course means that 23% is not shared. One can check if the remaining variance has predictive power for both dependent variables. We did this by calculating the semi-partial correlations where we first regress out either European ancestry or parasite load and then correlate the residuals with the remaining variable.... What we see is that for cognitive ability scores, European ancestry seems to have a small amount of validity controlling for parasite load (.22), while the opposite case did not hold (-.05). For S we see the opposite pattern, parasite prevalence seems to have some validity controlling for European ancestry (-.25), while European ancestry has none controlling for parasite prevalence (-.07; wrong direction!). The confidence intervals include 0 for all cases, however.
     
    The authors later published a follow-up study looking only at the United States. Here's what they found when examining African admixture in Hispanics (595):

    For Hispanics, as expected, Amerindian ancestry is negatively associated with [cognitive and socioeconomic] outcomes. However, unexpectedly, African ancestry is positively so associated. As shown in Table 5, the standard deviation of African admixture is about the same as that for Amerindian admixture, so the results are not dismissible on the grounds of low variation.
     
    The authors then ran some multiple regressions until they got the result they wanted for cognitive ability. However, they didn't get the result they wanted for SES (597-598):

    Unexpectedly, again, African% is a positive predictor even in the company of other predictors. Moreover, the size of the beta is larger than that for European%.
     
    They attempt to blame this result on unassigned admixture for the Hispanic sample (594, 598). However, turning to the study from which they drew this sample, we find that the reason for high "unassigned" ancestry in Hispanics is "because our ancestry estimation method conservatively assigns Native American ancestry conservatively" and had difficulty distinguishing Native American from East Asian ancestry. It had no problem assigning African or European ancestry.

    This has long been one of the most compelling pieces of evidence the hereditarians have cited. If the only environmental explanation for the IQ gap had to exclusively invoke income differences, it would be decisive. However, I tend to agree with Flynn that the gap is caused by an non-mainstream subculture prevalent among African Americans.

    Ahhh, yes. So in America we have managed to trick African Americans into adopting a sub-culture that depresses their IQ.

    I guess they must be hiding their rocket scientists in Africa somewhere.

    I’ll spell it out more simply for you. A group that can be tricked into adopting a maladaptive culture is a group that is going to go extinct.

    You forgot to invoke Stereotype Threat as well.

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    Haven't Europeans also been tricked into adopting a maladaptive culture and practices?
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  232. @matt

    1. Data showing blacks with a family income of over $200k barely scoring higher on the SAT than whites with a family income of under $20k. Along with a consistent black-white gap of 143-180 points at each income level.
     
    This has long been one of the most compelling pieces of evidence the hereditarians have cited. If the only environmental explanation for the IQ gap had to exclusively invoke income differences, it would be decisive. However, I tend to agree with Flynn that the gap is caused by an non-mainstream subculture prevalent among African Americans.

    In this context, it's interesting to note a study (Moore 1986) that found 13.5 point IQ gap between black children adopted by black parents and black children adopted by white parents (almost the size of the black-white gap), in favor of the white-adopted children. The mothers were matched for years of education, a proxy for class status. In other words, although half the children in this sample were raised by upper-middle class black parents, they scored almost a full standard deviation below black children raised by upper middle class white parents. When Moore interviewed the parents and watched them interact with their children, she found substantial differences in parenting styles between the black and white parents.

    The sample size was admittedly small (N = 46), so I don't claim that this finding is anything more than suggestive of a hypothesis that should be further tested.

    2. Recent research that shows the relative frequencies of IQ related SNPs found in GWAS have a high correlation with measured IQ by country. Looking forward to seeing that expertise you claimed in comment 181.
     
    Of course, I never claimed expertise, only that I knew more than Steve. Since Steve wouldn't claim to be an expert either, I don't know how you determined that I claim expertise. In any case, there is little I can add to this ongoing debate. I will say that there has been a fair deal of skepticism expressed toward these results by actual experts, and I would like to see the result peer-reviewed and published (preferably somewhere other than Mankind Quarterly) before drawing any conclusions about it. I will also note that the country IQ data is pretty spotty, especially when it comes to sub-Saharan Africa.

    P.S. If you want more data, here is a study looking at how European admixture correlates with IQ:
     
    You should actually read that study (I'll be sporting and leave aside the fact that it was published in MQ). You'll find some very interesting things. For instance, on p. 332:

    In Section 11, we saw some fairly odd findings for European ancestry in the United States. It seems that parasite load is so correlated with European ancestry (r = -.88, weighted r = -.82) that multiple regressions cannot disentangle the effects. Two variables that correlate at .88 share 77% (.882) of their variance, which of course means that 23% is not shared. One can check if the remaining variance has predictive power for both dependent variables. We did this by calculating the semi-partial correlations where we first regress out either European ancestry or parasite load and then correlate the residuals with the remaining variable.... What we see is that for cognitive ability scores, European ancestry seems to have a small amount of validity controlling for parasite load (.22), while the opposite case did not hold (-.05). For S we see the opposite pattern, parasite prevalence seems to have some validity controlling for European ancestry (-.25), while European ancestry has none controlling for parasite prevalence (-.07; wrong direction!). The confidence intervals include 0 for all cases, however.
     
    The authors later published a follow-up study looking only at the United States. Here's what they found when examining African admixture in Hispanics (595):

    For Hispanics, as expected, Amerindian ancestry is negatively associated with [cognitive and socioeconomic] outcomes. However, unexpectedly, African ancestry is positively so associated. As shown in Table 5, the standard deviation of African admixture is about the same as that for Amerindian admixture, so the results are not dismissible on the grounds of low variation.
     
    The authors then ran some multiple regressions until they got the result they wanted for cognitive ability. However, they didn't get the result they wanted for SES (597-598):

    Unexpectedly, again, African% is a positive predictor even in the company of other predictors. Moreover, the size of the beta is larger than that for European%.
     
    They attempt to blame this result on unassigned admixture for the Hispanic sample (594, 598). However, turning to the study from which they drew this sample, we find that the reason for high "unassigned" ancestry in Hispanics is "because our ancestry estimation method conservatively assigns Native American ancestry conservatively" and had difficulty distinguishing Native American from East Asian ancestry. It had no problem assigning African or European ancestry.

    I will also note that the country IQ data is pretty spotty, especially when it comes to sub-Saharan Africa

    Vitiligo is found inside the skull, too?

    In other words, although half the children in this sample were raised by upper-middle class black parents, they scored almost a full standard deviation below black children raised by upper middle class white parents

    And as with “donor-conceived” children, they’re smart enough to figure out there’s something wrong with the way they were brought up.

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  233. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @JohnnyWalker123

    But also national IQ studies can be of dubious quality. That list of IQ studies by country that’s popular in HBD circles contains quite a few clearly-nonsensical results, including something like 88 for Ireland, which can be disproven by using your eyes and comparing the living standards in Ireland to actual average-IQ-88 locations (e.g. Mexico City, Detroit, Beirut).

     

    Ron Unz has an article on how Irish IQ has risen significantly over the last several decades.

    Many HBDers believe that high-IQ creates prosperity. Ron Unz has, convicingly, made the opposite case: prosperity creates high-IQ. As Ireland has prospered, its national IQ has risen.

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-irish-iq-chinese-iq/

    For example, when I pointed out that Lynn had devoted many years of personal research in Ireland and eventually concluded that they were clearly a low-IQ race, several commenters angrily denounced Lynn, one going so far as to call him an anti-Irish bigot of KKK- or Nazi-like proportions. But if so many people want to attack the Irish Front of my analysis, and suggest I’m just dishonestly cherry-picking the data to fabricate a fraudulent case, perhaps we should indeed take a closer look at the Great Irish IQ Question.

    First, Lynn was hardly unique among leading IQ experts in characterizing the Irish as being low IQ. For example, Hans Eysenck, one of the foremost IQ researchers of the 20th century said exactly the same thing in his 1971 book “Race, Intelligence, & Education,” claiming that the Irish IQ was very close to that of American blacks, and that the Irish/English IQ gap was almost exactly the same size as the black/white gap in the U.S., being roughly a full standard deviation. Eysenck’s stated position unsurprisingly caused a considerable furor in the British media, including all sorts of angry responses and even (facetious) threats of violence. So the huge and apparently well-designed 1972 study of 3,466 Irish schoolchildren which placed the mean Irish IQ at just 87 hardly seems an absurd outlier
     

    The Irish underwent a period of 1000 years of getting the short end of the stick. Irish peasants were forced off their lands–everyone knows about the Scottish land clearances, but it was worse in Ireland, and it started much earlier–and Ireland was a country known for having a native middle and upper class that still weren’t terribly well off. The people who had the money were the great English landowners.

    In the 1800s, mass starvation was common for Irish people even outside of the Potato Famine. Every year, there was a period of time after you planted potatos but before the crop developed to the point where you could harvest where it was normal to go hungry.

    The Irish in the 1800s probably were-per average citizen-the most malnourished country on the planet, and they are not properly a represenative sample of anything. In that time period, many native cultures outside of Europe were still undisturbed by Western contact and they were able to eat a varied and wholesome natural diet. The only people as badly off as the Irish in the 1800s would have been the lower classes in the big cities such as China or India.

    Poor nutrition on that scale will definitely have a bad effect on your country’s average IQ.

    By the way, I investigated the effect of nutrition on IQ some years ago, and the information I gleaned was that it accounted for about an average of 10 IQ points. However, American blacks are a standard deviation below whites in IQ, and that’s more like 17 points instead of 10.

    The one nutritional effect that no one mentions, and which has been inadequately calibrated for in IQ testing is iodine. Lack of iodine in the diet can produce cretinism and a low IQ. Iodine uptake is blocked if you eat foods loaded with goitrogens. Some of the most goiterogentic foods in the human diet are cassava, sweet potatos, and yams. These three foods happen to be a staple in the African diet, and Africans eat huge amounts of them. There’s some chance that mass ingestion of goitrogens is having a negative effect on African IQ.

    However, these three items are not staples in the diets of American blacks, and they still have that IQ gap that’s a standard deviation below that of whites.

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  234. @JohnnyWalker123
    Here's a study on median net wealth by ethnicity/religion in the UK.

    White British -£221,000
    Indian - £204,000
    Pakistani - £97,000
    Other Asian - £50,000
    Black Caribbean - £76,000
    Black African - £21,000
    Bangladeshi - £15,000

    Jewish - £422,000
    Sikh - £229,000
    Christian - £223,000
    Hindu -£206,000
    Muslim - £42,00

    Here's what's interesting.

    The Sikhs mostly arrived in the UK as factory laborers. About a third of them were from the untouchable Sikh caste.

    Here are literacy rates by religion in India.

    The data released on December 30 shows that the Jains, who have 94.9 % literates, are followed by the Christians, whose literacy rate is 84.5%. The Buddhists have 81.3% literates, the Sikhs 75.4%, the Hindus 73.3%, and the Muslims 68.5%.

     

    Those median net worth figures seem quite high, though not impossible. By contrast, US median net worth is way lower, at about $45,000, according to this article.

    I’ve haven’t found any original source data, but this cnnmoney article provides some data.

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  235. namae nanka says: • Website
    @matt

    1. Data showing blacks with a family income of over $200k barely scoring higher on the SAT than whites with a family income of under $20k. Along with a consistent black-white gap of 143-180 points at each income level.
     
    This has long been one of the most compelling pieces of evidence the hereditarians have cited. If the only environmental explanation for the IQ gap had to exclusively invoke income differences, it would be decisive. However, I tend to agree with Flynn that the gap is caused by an non-mainstream subculture prevalent among African Americans.

    In this context, it's interesting to note a study (Moore 1986) that found 13.5 point IQ gap between black children adopted by black parents and black children adopted by white parents (almost the size of the black-white gap), in favor of the white-adopted children. The mothers were matched for years of education, a proxy for class status. In other words, although half the children in this sample were raised by upper-middle class black parents, they scored almost a full standard deviation below black children raised by upper middle class white parents. When Moore interviewed the parents and watched them interact with their children, she found substantial differences in parenting styles between the black and white parents.

    The sample size was admittedly small (N = 46), so I don't claim that this finding is anything more than suggestive of a hypothesis that should be further tested.

    2. Recent research that shows the relative frequencies of IQ related SNPs found in GWAS have a high correlation with measured IQ by country. Looking forward to seeing that expertise you claimed in comment 181.
     
    Of course, I never claimed expertise, only that I knew more than Steve. Since Steve wouldn't claim to be an expert either, I don't know how you determined that I claim expertise. In any case, there is little I can add to this ongoing debate. I will say that there has been a fair deal of skepticism expressed toward these results by actual experts, and I would like to see the result peer-reviewed and published (preferably somewhere other than Mankind Quarterly) before drawing any conclusions about it. I will also note that the country IQ data is pretty spotty, especially when it comes to sub-Saharan Africa.

    P.S. If you want more data, here is a study looking at how European admixture correlates with IQ:
     
    You should actually read that study (I'll be sporting and leave aside the fact that it was published in MQ). You'll find some very interesting things. For instance, on p. 332:

    In Section 11, we saw some fairly odd findings for European ancestry in the United States. It seems that parasite load is so correlated with European ancestry (r = -.88, weighted r = -.82) that multiple regressions cannot disentangle the effects. Two variables that correlate at .88 share 77% (.882) of their variance, which of course means that 23% is not shared. One can check if the remaining variance has predictive power for both dependent variables. We did this by calculating the semi-partial correlations where we first regress out either European ancestry or parasite load and then correlate the residuals with the remaining variable.... What we see is that for cognitive ability scores, European ancestry seems to have a small amount of validity controlling for parasite load (.22), while the opposite case did not hold (-.05). For S we see the opposite pattern, parasite prevalence seems to have some validity controlling for European ancestry (-.25), while European ancestry has none controlling for parasite prevalence (-.07; wrong direction!). The confidence intervals include 0 for all cases, however.
     
    The authors later published a follow-up study looking only at the United States. Here's what they found when examining African admixture in Hispanics (595):

    For Hispanics, as expected, Amerindian ancestry is negatively associated with [cognitive and socioeconomic] outcomes. However, unexpectedly, African ancestry is positively so associated. As shown in Table 5, the standard deviation of African admixture is about the same as that for Amerindian admixture, so the results are not dismissible on the grounds of low variation.
     
    The authors then ran some multiple regressions until they got the result they wanted for cognitive ability. However, they didn't get the result they wanted for SES (597-598):

    Unexpectedly, again, African% is a positive predictor even in the company of other predictors. Moreover, the size of the beta is larger than that for European%.
     
    They attempt to blame this result on unassigned admixture for the Hispanic sample (594, 598). However, turning to the study from which they drew this sample, we find that the reason for high "unassigned" ancestry in Hispanics is "because our ancestry estimation method conservatively assigns Native American ancestry conservatively" and had difficulty distinguishing Native American from East Asian ancestry. It had no problem assigning African or European ancestry.

    The Moore study isn’t a worthwhile evidence for the environmental side, and even if it were, it would be highly amusing to blame black ‘underperformance’ on white racism while touting white mothers as the best for a black child,

    Sure the Moore (1986) results which are lauded as proof of racial environmental determinism weren’t significantly different from zero, but they also weren’t significantly different from a genetic hypothesis’s predictions (genetic d =1). (And using one tail tests while increased the WGH to 0.5 didn’t remedy the lack of significant effects.)

    https://z139.wordpress.com/2012/12/13/falsely-reported-negatives/

    “Of course, I never claimed expertise, only that I knew more than Steve. ”

    No you don’t. And you never would if your reply to my previous comment is any indication.

    If the black-white gap has closed for the past few decades, it’s because whites at similar ability as blacks get poorer environment and watering down of educational standards in US which has the same effect as hitting the whites kids on the head with a ballpeen hammer..

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  236. … More accurate sources describing the ancient German way of war states the women, while not actually fighting, would go the battlefield to cheer their men on.

    That is the Gaul’s division of battlefield labor, as described in De Bello Gallico, written by one C. Julius Caesar.

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  237. @reiner Tor

    Hitler and his propaganda minister were so dark
     
    They both had dark hair (though Goebbels had darker brown, Hitler had medium brown), but while Goebbels had brown eyes, Hitler's eyes were blue. Their complexion was white, which is the color of most South Europeans (and even a lot of MENA people), especially if they do office work in Northern Europe and don't get much suntan. I think both were close to the German average in terms of skin color.

    Hitler looked like a typical Czech, which is not surprising given his ancestors came from near the Bohemian border.

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    • Replies: @snorlax
    Although, pure coincidence, the Czech-Americans I know are all blond. (And actual Czechia is one of the blonder countries I've been to. But anyway this is silly; ask people to pick Czechs and Austrians out of a lineup and I'd be shocked if anyone were able to do >5% better than coin flips).
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  238. snorlax says:
    @Peter Akuleyev
    Hitler looked like a typical Czech, which is not surprising given his ancestors came from near the Bohemian border.

    Although, pure coincidence, the Czech-Americans I know are all blond. (And actual Czechia is one of the blonder countries I’ve been to. But anyway this is silly; ask people to pick Czechs and Austrians out of a lineup and I’d be shocked if anyone were able to do >5% better than coin flips).

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  239. Freya says:
    @Jake
    Around 1910, we had scores of nut jobs who were preaching northern European nonsense, save that Slavs and Celts were always placed among the better bottom of their white hierarchy. That means they were German kooks vomiting the same German garbage.

    To get it right, you must go back to seeing things as they were, including when all Germanic tribes were little more than perpetual pirates and produced 0 culture worth saving.

    Those Germans after embracing the basics of Hellenistic civilization and orthodox Catholic Christianity did produce worthwhile culture.

    Germanic tribes were not pirates. Where did you get this nonsense from? Read Tacitus’ “Germania” to learn how they were actually more civilized than Romans in their moral conduct. Their social and spiritual life was organised based on thoroughly Germanic values, which persist to this day.

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    • Replies: @David Davenport
    From Caesar's On the Gallic Wars:


    Chapter 51

    [The day following, Caesar left what seemed sufficient as a guard for both [Roman] camps; [and then] drew up all the auxiliaries in sight of the enemy, before the lesser camp, because he was not very powerful in the number of legionary soldiers, considering the number of the enemy; that [thereby] he might make use of his auxiliaries for appearance. He himself, having drawn up his army in three lines, advanced to the camp of the enemy. Then at last of necessity the Germans drew their forces out of camp, and disposed them canton by canton, at equal distances, the Harudes, Marcomanni, Tribocci, Vangiones, Nemetes, Sedusii, Suevi; and surrounded their whole army with their chariots and wagons, that no hope might be left in flight. On these they placed their women, who, with disheveled hair and in tears, entreated the soldiers, as they went forward to battle, not to deliver them into slavery to the Romans.

    ...

    ...

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  240. Flip says:
    @Jim
    Georgian is not an Indo-European language.

    “I want to highlight one aspect which is not in the abstract: the closest population to the “Ancestral North Indians”, those who contributed the West Eurasian component to modern Indian ancestry, seem to be Georgians and other Caucasians.”

    -Razib Khan

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/08/indo-aryans-dravidians-and-waves-of-admixture-migration/#.WUYJzLpFw2w

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  241. TWS says:
    @JohnnyWalker123
    70% of Irish immigrants spoke English. Among those IQ tested, I'd expect the percentage was even higher.

    My grandparents spoke Irish at home. Most of the Irish families did where they lived. But they spoke English pretty well.

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  242. @Pat Boyle
    Anthropology seems to be retreating from 'niceness'. About thirty years ago we deciphered Mayan artifacts and learned a bit about what they thought of themselves. It was shocking. Mainstream academic anthropology had convinced everyone that the Mayan were peaceable philosopher-priests who spent most of their time contemplating nature and the beauty of the forest.

    Complete nonsense. Similarly there has been a strong preference for imagining almost all population changes as not invasions but rather the spread of modernizing innovations by cooperative peaceable farmers. But again new evidence makes it appear that ancient man was violent and aggressive just as we had formerly suspected.

    Less and less about early life on this planet appears to have been truly 'nice'.

    In recent years, diggers have found evidence of cannibalism at the Anasazi ruins in the Four Corners region.

    Many of us have enjoyed exploring the remarkable cliff dwellings, which were abandoned almost a thousand years ago. The story of how and why people there ate each other has yet to be told.

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  243. Numinous says:
    @Logan
    One of the oddest things I've run across is the fact that many Indians are offended by the idea that Aryans invaded India thousands of years ago, bringing the main languages and the basics of Indian civilization.

    This is odd because the commonly accepted theory is that the Aryans originated somewhere north of the Black or Caspian Seas where they split, with one group going east and south into India and the other west and south into Europe.

    As far as I know Europeans have never been offended by this idea. So why are Indians upset by it?

    As far as I know Europeans have never been offended by this idea. So why are Indians upset by it?

    Because the narrative tends to be be similar to comment #2, that Indo-Europeans == modern Europeans (more or less) while Indians are a degenerate mestizo population with some (but not much) IE ancestry. India is condemned to be hopelessly mired in poverty and backwardness until white invaders (Indo-Europeans, British) come in, marginally improve the gene pool, and innovate (and then eventually go degenerate themselves.)

    That Europeans themselves are a hybrid, and have as much IE ancestry as modern Indians, is not well-known or advertised. If it was, the theory would probably gain more acceptance in India.

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  244. Numinous says:
    @snorlax
    High-caste Indians-in-India also often adhere to vegetarian diets with very poor nutritional characteristics (no protein, <1600 calories a day), which would lower their IQs relative to lower castes who eat more nutritious non-vegetarian diets. When vegetarian Indians emigrate, they're likely to either give up the vegetarianism (by the second generation anyway), or switch to Western-style vegetarian diets with much better nutritional characteristics (lots of tofu).

    Higher-caste Indians are also quite a bit more resistant to giving up Hindu practices that are harmful to (largely, due to segregation, their own) public health (defecating outside instead of in toilets being the big one).

    High-caste Indians-in-India also often adhere to vegetarian diets with very poor nutritional characteristics (no protein, <1600 calories a day), which would lower their IQs relative to lower castes who eat more nutritious non-vegetarian diets.

    This is nonsense in multiple ways. First, there is no correlation between caste and vegetarianism. Brahmin vegetarianism is specific to two regions (the UP, or the Gangetic belt) and the deep south (mainly Tamil Nadu.) Brahmins are meat-eaters virtually everywhere in the country. On the other hand, all castes in the western state of Gujarat practice vegetarianism (an influence of the austere religion of Jainism.) Second, Indian vegetarians tend to be very heavy dairy consumers (I’m one example), which provides enough proteins.

    Higher-caste Indians are also quite a bit more resistant to giving up Hindu practices that are harmful to (largely, due to segregation, their own) public health (defecating outside instead of in toilets being the big one).

    The only people who defecate outside in India are those who don’t have access to toilets. It has nothing to do with caste.

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    • Replies: @Thea
    There have been articles in Indian newspapers about this problem. Even when the government provided free toilets people where choosing to go in their fields due to superstitions.

    Not sure it's caste related but it is a problem unique to India.
    , @man
    you're purposely obfuscating the distribution for lack of sanitation.
    Of course it correlates with caste; forward castes have better knowledge about and access to sanitary facilities.
    , @Escher
    Have you ever used a public toilet in India? An unhealthy fraction of the population does not know how (or chooses) to aim incorrectly. Its is consistent with the overall callous disregard towards public assets and the environment.
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  245. @BenKenobi
    Why did you randomly start posting in the third person?

    Hmmm, good question.

    I’m afraid that I’m gonna have to check with bored identity about what’s his official position on that issue.

    Meanwhile, bored identity really needs to stop with that ridiculously ridiculous binge watching of Fight Club.

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  246. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Pat Casey seal cells
    This is what Blessed Anne Catherine Emerich said in the first volume of her visions, among other things we have been and are being enlightened about.

    By the way, this reminds me of when DNA evidence affirmed the fundamental claim of The Book of the Taking of Ireland, written down circa 1000 AD, when it recounted the legend that the Irish race was founded by kings from Spain, and the closest genetic relatives of the Irish turned out not to be the Scots or the Welsh, but the Basques.

    Anywho, prophecies are only true in hindsight if they're real, when the course of human events pearses a leash, and and the knowing con n' ol lie.

    Actually, that’s all been very recently debunked by modern DNA research.

    About 10 years ago, before autosomal research on ancient DNA samples was undertaken, the theory that modern Basques are the closest relatives of the Irish gained credence due to the fact of shared y DNA.

    Now, the discovery and testing of ‘Rathlin man’ has overturned that. It now appears that the Irish are, in the main, the descendants of ‘Rhenish’ (ie from the lower Rhine area of Germany and the Netherlands) ‘Bell Beaker groups.

    Apparently the shared r1b male haplolineage is not Iberian in origin but Into European from the east. Siberian not Iberian.

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  247. @Trelane
    If you have been held back by the white man you have the right to open a casino.
    https://youtu.be/fIoCGzcYmIc?t=28

    Such a Brat Stephensonian kind of novelty!

    bored identity is curious :

    Do you have to be a genuine injun injuned in heart, or you can be any, garden variety, eggshell nuanced, sociopathic, newcoming dreamer that simply hates Amorica- but Likes Money?

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  248. Hitler’s ancestry was entirely Germanic peasant. The areas of the old Bohemia near his ancestors’ landholdings were also German speaking (until 1945 that is).
    For a typical Czech, take a look at Antonin Dvorak, that divine tunesmith.

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    • Replies: @BB753
    "For a typical Czech, take a look at Antonin Dvorak, that divine tunesmith."

    Not very flattering for Czechs, given that Antonin had very uncomely and strange features. Czechs tend to be tall and lean with sharp features.

    As for Hitler, he looked like a very ordinary Southern German. I've seen tons of middle - aged German truckers, mostly Bavarians, sporting mandatory working-class moustaches with the same physical type. (no homo).

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  249. @snorlax
    See my subsequent post (the other reply besides yours) about other factors that artificially decrease high-caste Indian IQ relative to lower castes.

    But also national IQ studies can be of dubious quality. That list of IQ studies by country that's popular in HBD circles contains quite a few clearly-nonsensical results, including something like 88 for Ireland, which can be disproven by using your eyes and comparing the living standards in Ireland to actual average-IQ-88 locations (e.g. Mexico City, Detroit, Beirut).

    And one of the lowest scores in Africa (and therefore the world) for Ethiopia, which makes no sense given they were one of the earliest civilizations, whom the Greeks and Romans considered a near-peer, created some fairly-impressive architecture, maintained their independence the longest of any people on the continent, defeated the Italians the first time around and put up a decent fight the second, are alone among the peoples of black Africa in creating a decent national cuisine, and are known (relatively-speaking) for an entrepreneurial streak as immigrants.

    And something in the low 90's for Israel (Jews only) which is very hard to believe even accounting for the Mizrahim and Haredim. And the figures in the 70's for South Asia are likewise hard to believe given how many have become well-known and genuinely-respected figures in STEM, medicine, high finance and as business executives, and that without (in America, Britain is a different story) being graded on a curve like NAMs are.

    And so on.

    I would hazard a guess that comparing the Ethiopia of 2000 years ago to the Ethiopia of today is rather like comparing the England of 100 years ago to the dusky coloured shambles it will be a hundred years from now.

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  250. @JohnnyWalker123
    Depends. I think there's a small amount of overlap between the most swarthy&ethnic of the Italians and the lightest of the South Asians (Indians/Pakis).

    For example, Fredo Corleone (the guy with the receding hairline) sort of could pass as Paki.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DZNDEqcSi0

    Not so for Italians from the mainland generally. You are talking about Sicilians, I think. As you know, there is a BIG difference between Sicilian genetic background and mainland italian genetic background.

    People with substantial ancestry from Italy but no known ancestors from Sicily, like me, tend to have zero subSaharan African genes, almost zero North African genes, and almost zero Middle Eastern aka Arab or Sephardic Jewish genes. That’s the result from 23andme for me and my mother, who is the Italian one, and for two other cousins on that side who took the same test.

    Sicilians, by contrast, quite commonly have five to ten percent Arab genes and sometimes more than a few percent of North African. I’m sure that has nothing to do with the seemingly even higher levels of unjustified violence and corruption in Sicily vis a vis the mainland….

    Malta is an interesting mixture, as well. Brief OT note: Maltese may be the only substantially-Arabic language in the world that uses our (Roman) alphabet.

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  251. Hindoo says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Romans were Etruscans for all practical purposes. The fighting man is valorized for a good reason, as it is closely tied to what was needed to survive and expand in an agricultural society; and Europeans indeed extended basic respect to Muslim invaders when they had to fight for their gains even as far as back the Song of Roland.

    Its one thing to respect an enemy, its another thing to welcome invasion without resistance.

    Anyway, grand pacifism is ridiculous. Its what has led to the modern world.

    I simply cannot fathom why pathetic Sin0-Yellows MUST keep on blabbering about subjects they have no clue about and make complete fools of themselves in public.

    Instead on making asinine comments like “Etruscans and Romans be dah same sheeat dawg, gnomesayin’?”, albeit in a more legible register of English, Sino-Yellows would do better to lynch their traditional witch-doctors who insist that cannibalising aborted female fetuses cures acne, or gulping down ground tiger bone cures impotence, or eating boiled-alive-cat soup cures cold.

    At least success in the latter would make even more nubile Sino-Yellow females available for impregnation by Euro-White men, which would lead to the reconstruction of the basal Turk (as I mentioned earlier), who would finally put an end to grand pacifism and the modern world and needless to mention, kick asses of Jooz, Mooz, Coonz AND Gookz.

    This Indo-Euro stuff is strictly family talk between Caucasoids; and Mongoloids are simply not welcome.

    Now go back and open your cheap convenience store in Guangzhou.

    End Chink occupation! Free Vancouver!

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Aww.

    Correct, I seemed to have been incorrect on that one point in fact. On the other hand, the hilarious stupidity of your ramble reminds me of that you probably wouldn't be so butthurt if you could poo in loo.

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  252. @oh its just me too
    really not surprising - a horse riding people with no word for elephant....
    Most of the purity laws for upper castes are obviously one ethnic group trying to keep 'clean' .
    many bollywood stars could pass for Greek or Italian

    really not surprising – a horse riding people with no word for elephant….

    The Slavic languages have a native (and ancient) word for ‘elephant’, of unknown etymology. Make of that what you will.

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    • Replies: @Jim
    Has a word for "elephant" been reconstructed for Proto-Indo-European?
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  253. @Steve Sailer
    Anna Narriette Leonowens, “Life and Travel in India,”

    That's the Anna and the King of Siam Anna, right?

    Yes.

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  254. Hindoo says:
    @Jenner Ickham Errican
    LOL why u mad tho? Unlike the sub-Saharan “kangz,” the Aryans kicked trans-continental ass, built and expanded civilizations, and had awesome pantheons made in their image. Actual footage from back in the day:

    https://youtu.be/v7MGUNV8MxU?t=26s

    How soft your fields so green
    Can whisper tales of gore
    Of how we calmed the tides of war
    We are your overlords
     

    No, my (imbecile or intoxicated) friend.

    Aryans were disgusting Third World gastarbeiteren imported to mow the lawns in the public gardens of the Harappan metropolis.

    Unfortunately, at some point of time, the Dravidian elites became totally cucked, and with generous help from their Dravidian SJW snowflake foot soldiers, they ruined this great civilization by integrating the Aryans and passing anti-Dravidian laws (specifically, the Racial Equality Act of 1998 BCE