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Amy Harmon Is Angry at the "Shakespeare-Was-The-Man-From-Stratford Troll Population I Didn't Know Existed"
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Dear Amy Harmon: I suspect that the awful James D. Watson is another one of these crackpot extremists who believes that Shakespeare’s plays were most likely written by Shakespeare instead of by a Jewish woman named Emilia Bassano.

Can’t the New York Times do even more to humiliate Watson? For example, why is Watson even allowed to live indoors?

In Emilia Bassano’s famous tragedy “King Lear,” Lear is forced to live outdoors on the blasted heath with just a Fool for company. Can’t the New York Times do something so that nonagenarian James D. Watson no longer has a roof over his head?

Make this happen, Amy!

 
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  1. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    You should consider writing a play about this, Steve. There’s a market for high-brow stuff, as the Lehman play shows, and there’s a tragic arc here that’s worthy of theater. Starts out as a champion, ends as an Ibsen-like Enemy of The People.

    Has interesting casting makeup, costume, and set design potential too – you could have the same 30-something actor play Watson, accruing aging makeup as the play goes on. He could also wear the same fashion throughout. Meanwhile, the same actress could play a genial journalist in the ‘50s, and an Amy Harmon-like character today.

  2. Not a compelling case according to Amy Harmon: Separate populations evolving for tens of thousands of years in separate conditions evolved different brains

    Compelling case according to Amy Harmon: A black woman wrote Shakespeare’s plays

    • Agree: Arclight, eah, larry lurker
    • Replies: @Altai
    , @bomag
  3. Agree and amplify – what better way to honor Roissy’s passing.

  4. “Plays attributed to Shakespeare.”

    “People who think they are white.”

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    , @Ragno
  5. eah says:

    Yeah, she should stick to what she knows and does best — not sure what Watson has to do with this though.

    In the fall, I joined the annual meeting of the Shakespeare Authorship Trust—a gathering of skeptics at the Globe—feeling excited that gender would be at the top of the agenda…I thought of Bassano’s Salve Deus, in which she writes that men have wrongly taken credit for knowledge: “Yet Men will boast of Knowledge, which he tooke / From Eve’s faire hand, as from a learned Booke.”.

    “LOL” — oh man — I mean, who knows? — I have no reason to believe Shakespeare did not write the works attributed to him, and no interest or energy to look into it — which is perhaps the insidious thing about this kind of (perhaps largely — ahem — agenda-driven) speculation (or research if you prefer): it puts ideas into heads, which really only an “expert” can dislodge — and very few people will ever see or bother to look for any such refutation.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  6. Escher says:

    Agreed that the current trend of attributing Shakespeare’s accomplishments to a woman is insane, but what does the de-personing of Dr. Watson have to do with it?

  7. eah says:

    I suspect that the awful James D. Watson is another one of these crackpot extremists

    Re the link (to an earlier post):

    But:

  8. Until we can prove Emilia Bassano was a lesbian, the evidence will continue to show Shakespeare wrote his own stuff. Once confirmed as a genderqueer dyke, though, I bet a ton of new evidence will confirm she was not just Shakespeare’s ghostwriter, but wrote a lot of Johnson’s and Marlowe’s stuff as well.

    • LOL: bomag
    • Replies: @tr
  9. @Escher

    There’s a lot more evidence for Watson’s “controversial” statements than for Shakespeare being a woman.

  10. Altai says:
    @Kent Nationalist

    I think it’s more that Amy only counts three peoples in the world, Ashkenazim, Sephardim and Goyim.

    • Agree: Gordo
  11. Anonymous[378] • Disclaimer says:
    @Escher

    Jewish journalist who helped to rub out some goy genius (Watson) on the wrong side of a debate that’s somehow divided along Gentile/Jew lines (https://www.unz.com/isteve/noticing/) wakens from her social media slumber just to commiserate with some other Jewish (?) journalist also engaging in a bit of anti-Gentilism: a batshit theory that some other goy genius was, in fact, a Jewish woman. Both journalists immediately played the victim card.

  12. @Ghost of Bull Moose

    How could Emilia Bassano have even been black when Linnaeus hadn’t invented the social construct of race yet?

  13. RobUK says:

    The Left’s playbook:

    1. Describe reality as a myth when reality is opposed to your viewpoint
    2. Describe backers of reality as extremists and brand their opinion as ‘Hate Speech’
    3. Get them banned from social media and public life
    4. Use violence against them on any occasion they appear in public

    Repeat for literally any subject, the more trivial the better.

    • Replies: @El Dato
  14. Richard says:
    @Escher

    It doesn’t seem noteworthy to you that the science journalist who orchestrated Watson’s de-personing has revealed herself to be an obvious crank?

    • Replies: @Kylie
  15. Shakespeare’s The Taming of the Shrew offers useful advice on how to correct the likes of Amy Harmon. That it comes from an author now revealed to be a woman should reinforce the validity of the re-education techniques Petruchio applies to Katherina.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    , @Logan
    , @Cortes
  16. George says:

    How come compu-linquisto-nerds can figure out the number of authors of the bible, but can’t figure out how many collaborated on Hamlet or Lear? Did Disney really write all those cartoons, especially after his death? Who really wrote Eugen O’Neil’s plays? Or Beckett’s? Beckett didn’t even speak French and somehow wrote plays in French, common people, wake up. According to Wikipedia, which is the oracle of truth, Suzanne Dechevaux-Dumesnil (which unlike Beckett sounds like someone who could write a sentence in French), was integral to En attendant Godot’s success, nuff said. Arthur Miller, on the other hand, did actually write all those plays, we know that because all his girlfriends were Shiksas, you didn’t think Marilyn Monroe did, did you?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  17. @George

    John Huston’s secretary played a big role in his later screenplays, and eventually she shared an Oscar nomination with him for “The Man Who Would Be King.”

    In “Barton Fink,” William Faulkner’s secretary/mistress has taken over increasing duties from the drunken genius to the point that she wrote his last two novels. But that’s fiction.

  18. Bill P says:
    @Desiderius

    Yeah, it bothers me. Roissy gave a lot more to WordPress than WordPress gave to him, and then they throw him under the bus.

    I’d been hoping to see more spiritual evolution on his part, which will come, but it shouldn’t be blocked. Roissy will ultimately embrace faith and be redeemed, and honored for all the truth he has told.

    We should all be able to see that in real time. Maybe we will anyway, but WordPress really screwed up by banning him.

    May we witness the resurrection of Roissy the White.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
    • LOL: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    , @Corvinus
  19. bgates says:

    Fortunately Amy Harmon can still get the word out.

    Thank goodness for those women who invented Twitter!

  20. @Desiderius

    RIP Roissy

    I started reading his blog when I was thirteen and it was still about picking up girls instead of politics.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  21. bomag says:
    @Kent Nationalist

    Compelling case according to Amy Harmon: A black woman wrote Shakespeare’s plays

    Our current age seems smitten with the notion that “the first will be last, and the last will be first”; thus the oppressed will rise up and conquer the oppressors because the oppressed are the REAL persons of capability.

    And when you begin multiplying them together, the synergies become geometric: women were oppressed while being just as, and more, capable than men. POC were oppressed but just as, and more, capable than non-POC. So when you get a female POC, the capabilities are up to quadruple a stale pale male. Then toss in the oppressed but more capable homosexuals, and the more capable but oppressed transgendered, we are soon into people sixteen times more capable than a stale male.

    The good times are rolling, as you can tell by walking down the street, if it is safe enough.

    • Replies: @L Woods
  22. El Dato says:
    @Against Reason

    Petruchio refuses to let Kate go to the wedding unless she agrees with everything he says, regardless of the validity of his claims. He puts her to the test by telling her that a man is a woman and that the moon is the sun – she agrees with both statements.

    That’s pretty liberal though.

  23. El Dato says:
    @RobUK

    Yeah, it’s called being a 12-year old girl with no supervision.

  24. Anon[276] • Disclaimer says:

    Shakespeare authorial conspiracies are one of those things that, like questions about whether UFOs have ever visited earth, come up on a regular basis, gaining popularity and then fading back and returning, up and down like a sine wave. If you are aware of this larger historical pattern, individual eruptions seem silly. I get the feeling that Amy has never encountered a Shakespeare exposé before, so she is relatively uninnoculated to them and is easily convinced. She could go to the library and check out books on a dozen or so other Shakespeare theories and binge read them and she would be cured. After that she can do Jack the Ripper.

  25. jb says:

    Just noticed Amy Harmon’s Twitter avatar. Has she always been a cartoon superhero?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  26. Logan says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    I read up a lot on this topic in high school 30-some years ago.

    The number of people proposed as the author of the plays was amazing then and has only grown. Most of them high-status nobles and such, on the theory that only such a person could understand human nature and political intrigue so well.

    Most of the theories do a better job of disproving each other than of proving their own case.

    What I figured out at the time was that most or all of those with these theories ignore an utterly key issue.

    Today, being a writer of great plays carries enormous social status. At the time, not so much. It was the rough equivalent, status-wise, of writing “daytime TV” or perhaps romance novels today. A great noble like the Earl of Oxford would never have even dreamed of stooping to write such “drivel.” If found out, his status and gravitas, the most important thing in the world to such men, would take a huge hit.

    I suspect the sad truth is that boring Bill Shakespear from the sticks wrote the plays and poems.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @Barnard
    , @Hail
  27. Logan says:
    @Against Reason

    Kate’s final soliloquy drives feminists into paroxysms of rage, and it reads really odd to just about anybody today.

    But when written, every word she said about the relative danger and hardship of male and female roles was literally true. You might dislike the conclusion she reaches, but that doesn’t change the facts.

  28. @Dave Pinsen

    He should write a play about the aftermath of Western Civilization’s demise. The angry and un-Woken walk around in the ruins, getting madder and madder, while the Woke set about building their house-of-cards utopias with No Exit.

  29. Logan says:

    Okay, went off and read the Atlantic article. Literally no evidence whatsoever that her candidate wrote the plays. Except that Shakespeare was apparently able to write with sympathy of female POVs and that she was alive in England at the time.

    To be fair, many of the male candidates proposed have no better evidence.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  30. It’s odd that Amy Harmon would chose playwriting to make her stand. Of all the literary genres in existence–poetry, novels, short stories, etc.–writing plays seems to be almost exclusively a male activity.

    Consider this: I have no trouble naming famous and successful female novelists or poets, but can anyone here think of a single great female playwright–in any language–on the level of a Shakespeare, Molière or Chekov? And if you complain that most women weren’t literate back then, then what about contemporary playwrights from recent history? The only one I can think of would be Eve Ensler, who now seems to have run her course; and even in her prime, I’m not sure I would have put her up there with Arthur Miller or Samuel Beckett.

    Am I overlooking any obvious counter-examples here? Feel free to help me out …

  31. Gordo says:

    Homophobic nonsense from Harman, every one knows the extremely gay Kit Marlowe wrote all those plays, Calvin Hoffman has definitely and entertainingly proved this.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  32. @Logan

    People who like Shakespeare’s plays tend to be Anglophiles, and what’s a better testament to England than that an ambitious middle class provincial nobody with nothing much besides talent and will (or as Anthony Burgess called it Will!) could become the most famous writer in the history of the world?

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
  33. @jb

    It’s probably something to do with her adolescent daughter’s interests. She seems like a good mom.

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
    , @Anon
    , @Abe
  34. Anonymous[219] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kent Nationalist

    I started reading his blog when I was thirteen and it was still about picking up girls instead of politics.

    Politics is ultimately about picking up girls. (Politics is motivated by competition for women and one’s success at competing for women is a function of politics.) Heartiste evolved into that wisdom.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  35. @El Dato

    And perhaps another indication that Shakespeare was a Jewish woman.

  36. What will happen once that Current Year’s commisars finally retconquest existing time line of Western Civilization by establishing that behind any omnipotently creative, but historically hidden wimmin, was a man twitching in fetal position?

    Will Sontag’s trope about Huwhite Race being a global carcinogen, be properly gender readjusted?

  37. @Dave Pinsen

    Something like King Lear meets Der Process? Yes, Kafka works well with Watson’s story.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  38. @El Dato

    In fact, it’s downright Communist!

    In my study of communist societies, I came to the conclusion that the purpose of communist propaganda was not to persuade or convince, not to inform, but to humiliate; and therefore, the less it corresponded to reality the better. When people are forced to remain silent when they are being told the most obvious lies, or even worse when they are forced to repeat the lies themselves, they lose once and for all their sense of probity. To assent to obvious lies is…in some small way to become evil oneself. One’s standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even destroyed. A society of emasculated liars is easy to control. I think if you examine political correctness, it has the same effect and is intended to. — Theodore Dalrymple

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  39. Abe says:

    Toxic princessity: “I’m a princess. I can write the best plays in history on Tuesday, kick butt as the deadliest special operations warrior in the world on Thursday, and still fit into a size 3 dress by the weekend, and who’s to say I can’t! (Oh, those 200 anonymous white males following me around everywhere and seeming like they do a lot of the work- oh, they’re just my baseborn servants, tee hee.”)**

    ** note the term she uses to dismiss her critics (“trolls”) is straight up out of a DISNEY princess movie

  40. Anonymous[219] • Disclaimer says:
    @eah

    Like a cross-dressing Shakespearean heroine, Bassano refuses to play by the rules, heretically reinterpreting scripture.

    [S]he writes that men have wrongly taken credit for knowledge: “Yet Men will boast of Knowledge, which he tooke / From Eve’s faire hand, as from a learned Booke.”

    Culture of Critique in the 16th Century. The ride never ends.

  41. ” a Shakespeare-was-the-man-from-Stratford troll population I didn’t know existed”

    Does she seriously believe that no one on twitter thinks Shakespeare wrote the plays? Or, more likely, is it that anyone disagreeing with her is ipso facto a troll?

  42. eD says:

    I realize this was not really about the Shakespeare authorship question and really just another iSteve bashing of the CNTRL Left.

    However, I am awaiting the long Ron Unz article arguing that questioning that all the First Folio plays were written by the actor William Shakespeare is completely ridiculous, while carefully listing all the literary figures and scholars that did criticize and, and noting that their arguments are quite reasonable. Plus smart normie commentators viewing even raising these questions as an attack on their childhood. And other commentators managing to blame the whole thing on the Jews.

    • Agree: Hail
  43. @Digital Samizdat

    New York playwrights have had immense powers to veto directors and casting of their plays since the 1919 Broadway strike. The joke in Hollywood is that the starlet was so dumb she slept with the writer. But when Marilyn Monroe tried the New York Stage, she married the playwright, Arthur Miller.

  44. Barnard says:
    @Logan

    How do any of these people think they can prove someone else wrote the plays? Any documented proof discovered now would be dismissed as a fake. Like you point out, it wouldn’t have been a status symbol for the “real author” to want to keep a record of anyway.

  45. The earliest woman playwright I ever heard of is Lillian Hellman but there actually is an under-radar tradition of women writing plays.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_early-modern_women_playwrights_(UK)

    We will always have philosophy however. Men that write philosophy seem to be genetically disposed to avoiding women entirely.

  46. The argument, such as it is, seems to be that the plays formally known as Shakespeare’s are sympathetic to women, and hence can’t have been written by a man.

    Depressing.

    Chaucer was also sympathetic to women and seems to have thought more than a little about the three way relations between man, woman, and medieval society. See the Franklin’s Tale. And never forget the Wife of Bath…

  47. This is such a stupid controversy.

    Creative people often look to other sources, and get ideas from other people.

    Sometimes they get the ideas from their peers, such as when Van Gogh and Gaugin lived together. Nobody thinks they painted each other’s paintings.

    Sometimes they are influenced by who they are sleeping with at the time.

    Picasso’s painting styles completely changed depending on who his mistress was at the time.

    The songs John Lennon wrote varied greatly depending on whether he was with Cynthia, Yoko or May. For example, Yoko had a great deal of influence on songs like “Because”, “Revolution 9”, “Imagine”, “Woman is the Nagger of the World “ and many others. Nobody thinks Yoko secretly wrote Lennon’s songs for him.

    It is entirely possible that Shakespeare got ideas and suggestions from other people. And one of his main influences may well have been this particular woman.

    However, this particular woman was a poet in her own right, and there are recorded poems written by her. Her style is completely different.

    If she had the skill to write in one style with her own name and write much better works in a different style with a different name, she was the greatest literary genius of all time. Because nobody else ever pulled that off.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  48. Anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Logan

    Okay, went off and read the Atlantic article. Literally no evidence whatsoever that her candidate wrote the plays.

    There are A LOT of startling coincidences. I haven’t seen anyone on this board refute her theory.

    • Agree: Grace Jones
  49. Anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Paleo Liberal

    This is such a stupid controversy.

    Winkler lists A LOT of compelling coincidences.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
  50. @Digital Samizdat

    I just googled “female playwrights” — and not only are they obscure but of course most of them are black

  51. nopeanon says:

    just a reminder that Amy Harmon is Jewish.

  52. The question is not who wrote Shakespeare’s plays, but if anyone stoking this latest controversy has really read them.

    I enjoy the Bard’s big dramas live in performance, and my wife teaches Shakespeare to high-schoolers so I have her for help. But I’ll admit I can’t get through this stuff in print.

    My main point of reference is sci-fi that rips off the classic plots (The Outer Limits’ great “Bellero Shield,” with Sally Kellerman as a modern Lady Macbeth) and Star Treks where desperate writers swipe famed turns of phrase for the episode title — All Our Yesterdays, Dagger of the Mind, Conscience of the King …

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  53. tr says:
    @Redneck farmer

    Yes, but what if the genderqueer dyke is just an XY male with undescended testicles who was misgendered at birth.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    , @Yngvar
  54. This just in–the author of “Beowulf” was a woman.

  55. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @The Alarmist

    Time is an interesting dimension to add to a story, which is probably part of why the Lehman play resonates, as it covers ~160 years. But a lot has happened over the last ~70 years, and a Watson play could nicely illustrate that. Basically, Watson’s ideas stay the same, but society and society’s reception of them change.

    You could signal society’s evolution in different ways – for example, maybe a black actress playing a friendly maid in the 1950s plays a woke apparatchik in the 2010s.

  56. David says:

    Euripides was said to have gotten help from Socrates to write the best parts of his plays.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  57. @David

    Euripides was said to have gotten help from Socrates to write the best parts of his plays.

    That assumes Socrates even existed.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
  58. @Cloudbuster

    Two and two are five, at times. Didn’t they teach Dr Dalrymple that in med school?

    It’s called “relativity”. Or “relativism”. Whatever.

  59. MEH 0910 says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Shakespeare is also one of her adolescent daughter’s interests:

  60. @Anonymous

    So, there are some coincidences. So what?

    It may very well mean that Shakespeare knew her, talked to her, got some ideas from her, and possibly even collaborated on a play or so with her.

    Just like what I said about John Lennon’s songs when he was with Yoko. She gave him some ideas, collaborated on some songs, helped with the production, etc. but nobody thinks she wrote all of Lennon’s songs. The songs she wrote for Double Fantasy and the songs she wrote after his death are not the same type of songs as what Lennon wrote.

    As long as we have poetry written by her, and it is a completely different style from Shakespeare it means almost 100% she isn’t Shakespeare

  61. @tr

    I gotta look up a chart….

  62. @Steve Sailer

    This is similar to something I pointed out in another Shakespeare thread comment, that many of the best songwriters in the Anglosphere were low born working class guys who could not read music. Think Leadbelly or Gabby Pahinui in the US, Lennon and McCartney in the U.K.

    Since quite a bit is known about Lennon and McCartney’s songwriting, we see how when they worked with classically trained musicians such as George Martin and in Lennon’s case Yoko Ono, their music became much more sophisticated. McCartney was influenced by Bach, to the point where Macca often wrote in various modes the way Bach had. In Lennon’s case, the song “Because” is based on Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata.

    We can also see the influence the great Indian sitar player, Ravi Shankar, has on George Harrison. The song “Here Comes the Sun” is a fusion of Indian and Western music, or at least that is what Dhani Harrison says.

    All the “real Shakespeare “ controversy is rather classist.

    • Agree: Cortes
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  63. Spangel says:

    I don’t see how Shakespeare could have written about moorish kingdoms or Italy without traveling there. Surely the woman who wrote what we attribute to Shakespeare was a well travelled woman of moorish descent. In other words she was African. Meaning she was black. Probably from an Islamic background, given that she benefited from their golden age of science and learning. She wrote both male and female personalities well. It is said she was lgbt and pansexual, taking lovers from all sides of the spectrum. To me, it seems obvious from his writings.

    So shocking and intimidating was the brilliance of this Black Muslim pansexual woman writer that Elizabethan England took credit for her works and claimed a white man of English descent wrote them.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  64. @Anonymous

    Wrong.

    The fact that her style of writing is different from the style of writing attributed to Shakespeare pretty much refutes the hypothesis, as much as it is possible to disprove any conspiracy theory.

    Sorry, but my doctorate is in a hard science. If you want to get people to believe what you are saying, you have to show how your hypothesis makes more sense than an alternative explanation. Then you have to come up with some compelling evidence. This hypothesis doesn’t work as well as alternatives, and there is no evidence whatsoever. Failing on one point would disqualify this hypothesis. Failing on both is fatal.

    In this case, I came up with an alternative hypothesis which fits all the data points, not just some of the data points. My alternative hypothesis is that this woman knew Shakespeare, and that Shakespeare consulted with her in the work of a few of his plays.

    Note that this alternative hypothesis, while certainly not proven, not only fits every “interesting coincidence” but also explains why her style of poetry is different from Shakespeare’s. They are different people.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Logan
  65. Ibound1 says:

    Shouldn’t we say that Michael Jordan really was a 5’6″ blonde Finnish woman? Such a compelling case built here — without overstating — that a blond Finnish woman scored all the points attributed to Jordan.

  66. @Reg Cæsar

    There was another playwright who made fun of Socrates. Plenty of evidence that Socrates was a man, and all men are mortal. Shakespeare was a mortal, therefore Socrates was Shakespeare. QED

    • Replies: @Tex
    , @Reg Cæsar
  67. Anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Paleo Liberal

    And how are you qualified to judge (a) the degree of difference in “styles” of two texts, and (b) that the same person couldn’t have authored two things you consider different “styles”?

  68. J1234 says:

    Such a compelling case built here — without overstating — that a woman wrote plays attributed to Shakespeare. By @ElizWinkler, now under attack from a Shakespeare-was-the-man-from-Stratford troll population I didn’t know existed. https://t.co/1E24kfuh0h

    — Amy Harmon (@amy_harmon) May 12, 2019

    Amy Harmon working as a journalist at one of the world’s most influential newspapers is like Erich von Daniken working as a historian at Yale.

  69. Yngvar says:
    @tr

    That’s just speculation at this point.

  70. J1234 says:

    On the other hand, maybe these plays being written by a Jewish woman will make Shakespeare become required reading again for students pursuing PhD’s in English.

    https://www.goacta.org/news/english_majors_dont_have_to_study_shakespeare_report_finds

  71. Jack D says:

    Step 1 – Leftist writes article with thinly sourced and outrageous claims but which fit popular Leftist notions – e.g. Shakespeare was really a Jewish woman, that the US should have open borders and socialism, etc.

    Step 2 – Fellow Leftist pronounces Leftist #1’s case to be “compelling”.

    Step 3 – Fellow Leftist pronounces that any “experts” who disagree with her and Leftist #1 (especially if they are old white men) are “trolls”. Their world renown and expertise in the field only increases their troll-ness – the higher the platform they stand on, the bigger splash they will make when Amy deplatforms their shriveled white troll ass.

    Step 4 – Profit!

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  72. Not Raul says:

    How is this news? Amy Harmon is always angry.

  73. Anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    Step 1 – Leftist writes article with thinly sourced and outrageous claims

    This isn’t the kind of claim that relies primarily on “sources.” It is more about research, and the coincidences she presents are indeed astounding. What is so outrageous?

  74. Tex says:
    @Anonymous

    I haven’t seen anyone on this board refute her theory.

    That’s because her theory is retarded.

  75. Tex says:
    @Paleo Liberal

    There was another playwright who made fun of Socrates. Plenty of evidence that Socrates was a man, and all men are mortal. Shakespeare was a mortal, therefore Socrates was Shakespeare. QED

    It’s irrefutable!

  76. @Bill P

    From your lips to Gods’s ears.

    I always thought of him as one of the stones crying out referred to in Luke 19.

    “And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;

    Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

    And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.

    And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

    And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

    Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

    For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

    And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

    And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought;

    Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.

    And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him,

    And could not find what they might do: for all the people were very attentive to hear him.”

    Like 19:37-48

  77. @Known Fact

    But I’ll admit I can’t get through this stuff in print.

    You could if you needed to, say to stage a competent production. It turns out to be easier than it seems on the surface once you get into it.

    Bloom’s Invention of the Human is an interesting take on why that is.

  78. My favorite threads are the ones where Paleo Liberal is the legitimate voice of reason, expertise, and good sense.

    • LOL: Paleo Liberal
    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
  79. Logan says:
    @Paleo Liberal

    Thanks. You express my POV much better that I can.

    The possibility that X could have written something is simply not evidence that they (sic) did.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  80. Anonymous[275] • Disclaimer says:
    @Desiderius

    Speaking of Roissy: deplatforming is the #1 hobby of equality-thumpers, so equality/equity/civilrights are obviously just examples of a Power Word and they need not be confused for a mental commitment to the mere dictionary definition. “The Hegelian dialectic is to blame”– sheesh, that’s so quaint.

    Take the notion that all women are EQUALLY deserving of respect which is obvious bunk to anyone older than 8– not even women believe that. But pressing your advantage under the regnant legalistic metaphor, saying I belong to group X therefore am entitled to Y bennies, is the killer app and doesn’t involve equality which requires measuring. “I don’t live in the U.S.A.; America is an idea; I am a certified member of the Afro-Indigenous-Idea-Having-o-sexual community; ergo I have the right to live in the U.S.A. starting now.” That’s the legacy of liberalism.

  81. Cortes says:
    @Against Reason

    “The Taming of the Shrew” is rather like Tale 44 of Count Lucanor…

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tales_of_Count_Lucanor

    A somewhat more…robust treatment is available in the story “Submission” in the collection “The Kidnapped Saint etc” by B. Traven.

  82. peterike says:

    Funniest bit from that Atlantic article:

    “When, in disgrace with fortune and men’s eyes, / I all alone beweep my outcast state, /And trouble deaf heaven with my bootless cries, /And look upon myself and curse my fate,” reads sonnet 29. (When Maya Angelou first encountered the poem as a child, she thought Shakespeare must have been a black girl who had been sexually abused: “How else could he know what I know?”)

    The self-absorption of blacks is truly without limit.

  83. @Desiderius

    It’s all part of my secret plot to turn the entire alt-right into tree hugging liberals. 😉

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  84. L Woods says:
    @bomag

    Our current age seems smitten with the notion that “the first will be last, and the last will be first”; thus the oppressed will rise up and conquer the oppressors because the oppressed are the REAL persons of capability

    And to an extent, they’re right. The problem is that the unsung oppressed weren’t women/poc, but other white guys who weren’t as ruthless and talented at self-promotion as those who got the glory.

  85. @Paleo Liberal

    Turn?

    We’re the only ones left.

    • Replies: @Paleo Liberal
  86. @Anonymous

    The original name of the blog was Roissy in DC. Politics was the subtext all along.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  87. Corvinus says:
    @Bill P

    “Yeah, it bothers me. Roissy gave a lot more to WordPress than WordPress gave to him, and then they throw him under the bus.”

    Certainly he, along with others, should not be banned.

    “Roissy will ultimately embrace faith and be redeemed, and honored for all the truth he has told.”

    The only faith he has is with poon. He is approaching middle age, hitting the wall, and the well ran dry. As a result, he went all Alt-Right.

    • Troll: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  88. Anon[346] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Yikes! The daugher has a Wikipedia entry longer than Steve’s:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasha_Matthews

    She’s now 14, but here she is at 11:

    https://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2016/02/make-your-own-comic-101-with-sasha-matthews/

    Here’s the explanation of the avatar:

    Sasha Matthews’ Everyday Superheroes project started off as a fundraiser for ACLU. Her idea was to draw real people doing what they love in life, but in the form of a superhero. This one is of my mom, Amy Harmon. She’s a journalist, so I drew her holding a microphone, and I wanted it to look like the Statue of Liberty.


    Here she is in second grade:

    Her Twitter account has a video of her interviewing Kamala Harris.

    • Replies: @Hail
  89. Hail says: • Website
    @Logan

    Today, being a writer of great plays carries enormous social status. At the time, not so much. It was the rough equivalent, status-wise, of writing “daytime TV” or perhaps romance novels today. A great noble like the Earl of Oxford would never have even dreamed of stooping to write such “drivel.” If found out, his status and gravitas, the most important thing in the world to such men, would take a huge hit.

    I suspect the sad truth is that boring Bill Shakespear from the sticks wrote the plays and poems.

    Unless I am misrerading something, your paragraph-two (in blockquote here) does not follow from your paragraph-one. Your paragraph-one is an elegant answer to the Q people often pose, either to themselves when Earl of Oxford theory comes up, or to a Stratford-skeptic interlocutor: “Why would someone want to conceal his authorship?”

    I think a lot of people can’t get past the idea that someone wouldn’t want credit for “writing Shakespeare.” The problem is, people are so dazzled by the star-power of the Shakespeare corpus (which practically has a status equal to, or exceeding, that of the Bible for many), they forget the long tradition of pseudonymous writing. To say nothing of particular conditions in late-16th-century England and in the Earl of Oxford’s own life situation that might lead him to want to conceal his authorship for political or other reasons, and credit the plays to a fall guy.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Logan
  90. @Desiderius

    May the good Lord help us, sometimes it really looks that way.

    Just as mainstream Republicans see tax cuts for the rich as the solution to everything, so many modern “progressives” see unlimited immigration as the solution to everything.

    How to fight racism?
    Import tons of people from different countries who all hate each other, and hate blacks even more.

    How to fight disparity of wealth?
    Import cheap labor!

    How to deal with housing shortages and urban sprawl?
    Import more people and restrict development.

    How to fight global warming?
    Bring in lots of folks from low carbon footprint countries so they can burn more fossil fuels in the US!

    I could go on forever.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
  91. Hail says: • Website
    @Anon

    The daugher has a Wikipedia entry longer than Steve’s:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasha_Matthews

    She’s now 14

    What two-word phrase am I thinking of? First letters only:

    J_____ P________.

  92. Brett_McS says:

    Shakespeare was a gay man, as were many of his contemporaries, and descendants, in the theater.

    • Replies: @Logan
  93. @Paleo Liberal

    There was another playwright who made fun of Socrates.

    That would have been Aristophanes. Exhibit A for the hypothesis that reactionaries are the best satirists.

  94. @Paleo Liberal

    In Lennon’s case, the song “Because” is based on Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata.

    The Dave Clark Five’s “Because” is a much better song, no matter who wrote it. (We don’t really know.) Because (excuse me) it was written forward, for one thing.

    …many of the best songwriters in the Anglosphere were low born working class guys who could not read music.

    McCartney was well into his career before he learned to read music, but his father was a band leader, and he was quite familiar with music hall and Tin Pan Alley material.

    …Macca often wrote in various modes the way Bach had.

    The classic modal Beatle song is “Norwegian Wood”, which Lennon wrote. Leonard Bernstein explained it on one of the Young People’s Concerts.

    There must be some kind of ’60s nostalgia among those too young to remember. I just attended a dance school’s end-of-term performance. There were two girls named Kennedy, two named Lennon, and one named Delaney.

    But the worst case was a ’50s name: Kinsey.

    Imagine living that down!

  95. Abe says:
    @Steve Sailer

    It’s probably something to do with her adolescent daughter’s interests. She seems like a good mom.

    Good mom? Yes, I’m sure she’s probably pretty attentive, and affectionate, and gives her daughter all a child could need or want, including probably not just all the good things one can buy, but also the things one can’t- like a mother’s time and attention.

    Besides being huge flaming hypocrites, though, I can’t get too mad at the college entrance scandal/Varsity Blues sting parents- certainly not to the point of thinking they deserve any real jail time. Considering the enormous sums of money they paid, and how they without hesitation took the rap to protect their kids, I just can’t hate them all that much. Yes, they indirectly took something of value from someone they never met. Amy Harmon, on the other hand, intentionally inflicts harm on innocent, specific individuals for money and career purposes. She is basically a blackmailer who doesn’t even bother to first extort her victims because she knows there is an interested third party (THE NEW YORK TIMES) who will always pay more for her dirt. And she is showing her daughter one can make a good living at such a racket. That is decidedly a BAD MOTHER.

    • Agree: Kylie
  96. Ragno says:
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    “Children assigned as male or female at birth.”

  97. @Gordo

    My guess would be Shakespeare was some kind of bisexual, like, say, his interpreter Larry Olivier.

    Ok, I went and looked it up and Olivier doesn’t appear to have been all that bi at all once he got established in his profession:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/23/books/ruthlessly-practical-undeniably-brilliant.html

    In particular,

    • Replies: @Sam Malone
    , @Sam Malone
  98. Anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Spangel

    Surely the woman who wrote what we attribute to Shakespeare was a well travelled woman of moorish descent.

    Traveling is part of many Jews culture. If not individually then family members. Trade routes and all that.

  99. Ragno says:

    Dear Amy Harmon: I suspect that the awful James D. Watson is another one of these crackpot extremists who believes that Shakespeare’s plays were most likely written by Shakespeare instead of by a Jewish woman named Emilia Bassano.

    Can’t the New York Times do even more to humiliate Watson? For example, why is Watson even allowed to live indoors?

    Makes you wonder, though – why deliberately destroy his reputation?; why heap untold humiliation on a 90-year-old in frail health whose contributions to scientific knowledge are indisputably monumental?
    Lots of people hold eccentric views….wouldn’t the simple gratitude of the educated world to a man who after all has committed no crime, but has instead made the world a better place indicate that benign neglect toward his ‘problematic’ private theories is vastly preferable to the public witch trial he’s forced to endure?

    Hmmm. Perhaps the answer to the question “why” is rooted somewhere in the past; for instance, 2007, where this story briefly circulated (link is now dead, but I’m sure you can Google up a reasonable facsimile):

    Scientist James D. Watson, co-discoverer of the structure of DNA and a Nobel Prize winner, says anti-Semitism is justified, in a recent magazine interview.

    The ADL called Dr. Watson’s remarks about Jews “disturbing” and is asking Watson to clarify them.

    Watson, 78, who lives in Cold Harbor, N.Y., tells Esquire magazine in its January edition that anti-Semitism, in some circumstances, is justified.

    In an interview profile for the magazine Watson asks rhetorically, “Should you be allowed to make an anti-Semitic remark?” He answered: “Yes, because some anti-Semitism is justified. Just like some anti-Irish feeling is justified. If you can’t be criticized, that’s very dangerous. You lose the concept of a free society.”

    Apparently a firm believer in eugenics, Watson also feels “Ashkenazi Jews” – Jews descended from the medieval Jewish communities in the area of Germany – have higher intelligence than other people.

    “I’ve wondered why people aren’t more intelligent,” Watson says. “Why isn’t everyone as intelligent as Ashkenazi Jews? And it may be that societies work best when there’s a mixture of ability – the bright people would never be an army.”

    Watson’s remarks were part of the magazine’s January cover story, which consists of interviews with famous and notable people who reveal “What I’ve Learned” from life. Included are interviews with Katie Couric, actor Peter O’Toole and magicians Penn & Teller, among others.

    Ken Jacobson, the deputy national director of the ADL, reacted strongly to Watson’s statements.

    “Those are very strange comments coming from an individual like that,” Jacobson told NewsMax. “At the very least I think he needs to clarify his remarks. It sounds like he was trying to make some general comment about political correctness. He makes a reference that groups can be criticized, that not to be able to criticize a group isn’t right. That’s not to say you can’t make comments about Jews, but anti-Semitism is a very specific statement, not just criticism, but a specific type of statement.”

    Jacobson not only objected to Watson’s “disturbing” endorsement of anti-Semitism, but also objected to Watson’s statement that Ashkenazi Jews are more intelligent than other people.

    “That also is a genetic stereotype,” Jacobson said. “We believe that if Jews have succeeded in a certain field, it has been due to Jewish traditions, culture, and the valuing of education. We don’t get into all the genetic stereotyping.”

    Jacobson added, “Obviously, the impact of anti-Semitism through the century has been devastating to Jews, and I would hope that’s not what he really meant. In and of itself, the statement that some anti-Semitism is good is a disturbing statement. He needs to clarify it.”

    Watson also holds some strong political views. For example, he labels President Bush and Sen. Bill Frist “rich trash.”

    He suggests the rich have “used their money to buy the presidency.”

    About Frist, he continued: “And Frist isn’t an innocent bystander, with his own family fortune – hundreds of millions. The piece of sh–, I hate him.”

    Watson says his own politics have evolved from the left to libertarianism. He said he “turned against the left wing” because “they don’t like genetics, because genetics implies that sometimes in life we fail because we have had bad genes.”

    Watson complains that the poorer classes are having more children than the richer, more intelligent classes.

    “I think now we’re in a terrible sitution where we should pay the rich people to have children.” He says if we don’t encourage procreation of wealthier citizens, IQ levels will most definitely fall.

    Wouldn’t it be lovely if that were from SALON or THE NATION? Alas, if the hamfisted obviousness didn’t give the article’s neocon-rag provenance away, shoehorning in a bit of fainting-couch outrage on behalf of Dubya and Bill Frist makes it official.

    • Replies: @res
  100. Anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Logan

    The possibility that X could have written something is simply not evidence that they (sic) did.

    She herself was a writer and poet. All the name and cultural coincidences. The implausibility of the man from Stratford. It’s a compelling case.

    • Replies: @Keypusher
  101. Kylie says:
    @Richard

    “It doesn’t seem noteworthy to you that the science journalist who orchestrated Watson’s de-personing has revealed herself to be an obvious crank?”

    She did that when she orchestrated Watson’s de-personing.

  102. Anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Desiderius

    The original name of the blog was Roissy in DC. Politics was the subtext all along.

    The mere mention of D.C. in the title doesn’t imply it was about politics.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  103. Anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus

    As a result, he went all Alt-Right.

    How does this follow?

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  104. @Paleo Liberal

    Immigration is like what brandy used to be , the universal specific.

  105. Anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hail

    and credit the plays to a fall guy.

    Indeed. It is very odd that William Shakespeare the namesake left no manuscripts or anything in his will.

    • Replies: @Cortes
  106. Cortes says:
    @Anonymous

    Odder still is that Ms Bassano appears not to have instructed her executors and copyright lawyers about rights to the proceeds from licensing performance of her works. Fortunately she has Harmon to make the claim on her behalf.

    Noble Ms Harmon – a voice for the voiceless. All those heirs of Bassano robbed for centuries now have a champion.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  107. Whoever the person was who wrote Shakespeare’s plays, that person met the following criteria:

    1). Was a professional theater practitioner, or else a groupie who spent so much time hanging around the theater that they’d have time for little else;

    2). Knew on quite familiar terms, and sometimes worked with, other leading theater writers of the day;

    3) In particular, knew the rock-star poet bad-ass Kit Marlowe, was in awe of him personally, was heavily influenced by him early on (I mean, VERY heavily influenced), and upon Marlowe’s early death, felt a great sense of stylistic liberation, free at last of the burden of influence;

    4) Personally knew the comedians Will Kemp and Robert Armin, the tragic actor Dick Burbage, and the gaseous alcoholic blowhard Robert Greene;

    5). Spent a lot of time in taverns, boozing with other writers, actors, and assorted low lifes, as well as merchants, lawyers and court gossips;

    6). Had a bad marriage and numerous affairs;

    7). Was eager to talk to just about anybody, remembered what they said and how they said it, but was rather flippant about book-smart facts;

    8). Was clearly not afraid to abandon scruples and just make shit up (viz Shakespeare’s Venice sounds an awful lot like London, his Ancient Rome sounds like London, Eastern Europe, imaginary medieval Britain, Denmark, Ancient Greece, they all sound quite curiously like London.

    If anyone can show me evidence that Emilia Bassano knew Kit Marlowe and idolized him, or if there are letters or diaries from the family of the Earl of Oxford complaining that the Earl was wasting his whole life boozing in taverns and hanging around the theaters, that would be something serious to consider. Otherwise, y’know, Bob Fosse’s choreography /had/ to have been created by a masked orthopedic surgeon, because how could some pill-addled alcoholic possibly know all those bio-mechanical details about the human body?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @dvorak
  108. @Steve Sailer

    Olivier doesn’t appear to have been all that bi at all once he got established in his profession

    Well, I remember reading that he and Marlon Brando once had sex in a pool, I believe in the 1960s, in front of at least one woman witness. Seriously.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  109. @Steve Sailer

    Olivier doesn’t appear to have been all that bi at all once he got established in his profession

    Well, I remember reading that he and Marlon Brando once had sex in a swimming pool, I believe in the 1960s, in front of at least one woman witness. Seriously.

  110. @The Germ Theory of Disease

    A number of top writers like Anthony Burgess and Tom Stoppard have tried their hands at portraying Shakespeare in fiction and he usually comes out like a wise-ass upstart from the sticks on the make in the big city’s theater business.

  111. @Sam Malone

    Yeah, and Olivier and Danny Kaye …

    And Richard Gere and the gerbil … Oh that one was made up by Sly Stallone.

    There are a lot of stories …

    • Replies: @Sam Malone
  112. Malcolm Y says:

    She’s a writer for the atlantic. I’m sure there’s a google of things she’s not aware of.

  113. @Steve Sailer

    For divers unknown reasons (as Will himself would say), my impression contra Stoppard et al is that Shakespeare was not a smart-ass or a glittering wit in person, but rather a guy who kept his ears open and his mouth shut, and saved it for later.

  114. Keypusher says:
    @Anonymous

    Well, here’s a striking non-coincidence: the sonnets are clearly written from the point of view of a man, and Bassano wasn’t one. If we’re going to treat the works as disguised autobiography, let’s not pick and choose; let’s go all the way.

    As for the alleged coincidences, every candidate went to school with someone named Rosencrantz, or visited Elsinore, or spent time in Italy (meanwhile, the plays, far from revealing “close-grained knowledge “ of Italy, are in fact full of errors about it). Enthusiasm about Italy in Shakespeare ‘s England, as reflected in the poems and plays of just about everyone back then, far outstripped knowledge about Italy. And people who think the plays demonstrate familiarity with courtly life typically get their knowledge of courtly life from Shakespeare. Dryden, writing much closer to the time, pointed out that Beaumont and Fletcher were much better at depicting the upper classes than Shakespeare and Jonson.

    It’s frustrating to see the usual AQ drivel rehearsed in the Atlantic, but as we know the Atlantic regularly publishes drivel on all sorts of topics. So why should Shakespeare be spared?

    Someone pointed out that women are spectacularly underrepresented among playwrights, even today. I wonder why that is, but it does seem to be true.

  115. Corvinus says:
    @Anonymous

    “How does this follow?”

    Easy. His game blog was getting stale. Along the way, his audience expressed Alt Right views. Since Roissy held them as well, he put those ideas into his blog. Before you know it, he’s another mouthpiece for the Alt Right. Really simply to follow.

  116. @Keypusher

    For the last 100 years in America, since the Broadway Strike of 1919, the playwright is The Man in the theater. He legally gets complete veto power over all productions of his works including casting. Edward Albee’s estate, for example, recently vetoed casting a black actor in Who’s Afraid of Virginia Wolf.

    Marilyn Monroe wouldn’t have married a movie writer, but a playwright was in a different class from a beaten down screenwriter.

  117. Keypusher says:
    @Anonymous

    Coincidences that either vanish upon inspection or are meaningless + published written output that is a million miles from genuine Shakespeare. A bog-standard “candidate,” in other words. But a woman and (maybe) Jewish, so probably due for a bit of a vogue.

  118. Logan says:
    @Hail

    Not a bad point.

    But it actually does follow, to my mind.

    To a nobleman of the time, writing such stuff would be degrading himself. Noblemen write treatises and essays and poems. Not drivel for the amusement of the plebs.

    There is some parallel perhaps to the Roman emperors Nero and Commodus.

    Nero performed musically in public and Commodus performed as a gladiator in the arena.

    Their doing so damaged their status immensely in the eyes of the public and especially of the elite. Oxford being found out as the author of plays would have faced similar opprobrium. It just doesn’t seem likely to me that he’d even want to do this.

    But of course we can’t, and probably never will be able to, prove it one way or the other.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  119. @Logan

    Here’s a question. Are the Shakespeare plays we have his first draft or his last draft after tryouts before an audience? I think we have two versions of Hamlet, one better than the other. It’s not clear if the inferior one was a bootlegged transcription or was Shakespeare’s own first draft.

    The history of theater suggests that his plays that can still hold an audience 400 years later must have been Shakespeare’s final drafts after he revised them in light of audience reactions.

    And that raises the question of who was sitting there at each performance taking notes and making quick revisions if not Shakespeare?

    How come nobody ever theorizes that instead of Shakespeare being a fake front for some secluded genius, that Shakespeare might have had a collaborator?

    Collaboration works better in writing dialogue than in writing novels or poetry. It’s not at all unknown for collaborators to consist of a public face and a more obscure writing partner, like Zemeckis and Gale on “Back to the Future” or Billy Wilder and I.A.L. Diamond. If you told me that Shakespeare’s plays were written like “Double Indemnity” with frontman Billy Wilder working behind the scenes with Raymond Chandler from a story by James M. Cain, I’d say that doesn’t sound like an implausible arrangement for cranking out a lot of high quality work in a short time.

    But nobody ever proposes anything plausible like that. It’s always the pathetic Stratfordian was an obvious fake who was selected by my personal favorite genius to receive these plays in the mail.

    • Replies: @res
    , @Keypusher
    , @Logan
  120. Anonymous[222] • Disclaimer says:
    @Cortes

    Odder still is that Ms Bassano appears not to have instructed her executors and copyright lawyers about rights to the proceeds from licensing performance of her works.

    Have you seen her will? Did women have wills?

    Maybe she gave them away or there was an estate tax.

  121. Anonymous[222] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    he usually comes out like a wise-ass upstart from the sticks on the make in the big city’s theater business.

    I don’t think the status hierarchy of “big city” and “sticks” existed in England in Bassano’s day.

    • Replies: @keypusher
    , @Tex
  122. @Keypusher

    “Someone pointed out that women are spectacularly underrepresented among playwrights, even today. I wonder why that is”

    There isn’t even a wiki category for women playwrights.

    I must confess the only English women playwrights I can think of both died very young and seemed to have mental challenges, to use an euphemism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Kane

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dunbar

  123. @Steve Sailer

    It’s certainly bizarre, but considering what we’ve learned from our friend Quincy Jones about Marlon Brando and Richard Pryor, and Marlon Brando and James Baldwin, and Marlon Brando and Marvin Gaye, plus considering what we know about Olivier, and considering that as peers at the top of their profession in the 1960s they’d likely have felt comfortable socializing together however was their wont, I can accept it as more than just a story.

    Brando was one strange, strange guy. He also apparently had a thing for Wally Cox, of all people. If you look at Cox’s Wikipedia entry you’ll see that it says:

    His close friendship with Marlon Brando was the subject of rumors. Brando told a journalist: “If Wally had been a woman, I would have married him and we would have lived happily ever after”,[7] and writer/editor Beauregard Houston-Montgomery has stated that while high on marijuana Brando confessed to him that Cox had been the love of his life.

    I don’t even know what that means, but again, Marlon Brando was one weird guy. That’s fine, and I like him in a few movies, but wow.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  124. @Sam Malone

    But keep in mind that Quincy Jones was a genius at entertaining. I once tried to figure out who had gotten paid by check for the most different jobs in the entertainment industry and Quincy Jones seemed the most likely #1. Note that his daughter Rashida Jones with the late Peggy Lipton is trying to convert herself into a screenwriter, even though pretty actresses almost never have second careers, but Quincy Jones’ daughter probably has gotten a lot of paternal good advice about all the different ways to make money in Hollywood.

    So I’m just saying about Quincy Jones is that not everything he ever said is probably bona fide.

    • Replies: @Sam Malone
  125. @Steve Sailer

    You’re certainly right of course to be cautious about taking at face value the astounding tales of professional entertainers whose instinct, as you’ve pointed out in the past, will be to fudge the truth if necessary to create the perfect laugh line or in whose interest it might be to reshape memories to craft the mental image with the most eye-catching staying power.

    And I remember when I first read of that Quincy Jones interview, being shocked at his Brando revelations in particular and refusing to believe literally in them. And then being even more shocked when Pryor’s wife unabashedly confirmed at least that portion. It made me more aware than I’d been of the decadence elements of our society had descended to by the 70s, and of the self-indulgence common to theatrical types in particular, and so now I find myself much more believing now when the subject is Brando.

  126. res says:
    @Ragno

    Here it is. I like including a link because that makes clear the original source and also makes it easier to find on the Internet Archive if the original goes away.
    https://spme.org/spme-research/letters-from-our-readers/nobel-laureate-james-watson-co-discoverer-of-dna-says-some-anti-semitism-is-justified-in-january-esquire-magazine/2478/

  127. res says:
    @Steve Sailer

    How come nobody ever theorizes that instead of Shakespeare being a fake front for some secluded genius, that Shakespeare might have had a collaborator?

    Or collaborators.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Shakespeare%27s_collaborations

    A “big data” analysis adds Christopher Marlowe.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/william-shakespeare-writing-credit-3044444-Oct2016/

  128. @Anonymous

    He wouldn’t be in DC otherwise.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  129. keypusher says:
    @Anonymous

    You’re mistaken. For an example lying at hand, see the depiction of Sogliardo (a country bumpkin in the big city) in Act I, Sc. I of Every Man Out of His Humour. Winkler mentions him in her article, although the parallels between him and Shakespeare are weak.

    https://www.gutenberg.org/files/3695/3695-h/3695-h.htm

  130. Tex says:
    @Anonymous

    I don’t think the status hierarchy of “big city” and “sticks” existed in England in Bassano’s day.

    There was an AEsop fable about city and country contrasts the opulence & lack of security of the city to the simple comfort of the country. The fable was well known in 16th century England, and there’s no indication that the central theme was strange or unfathomable to Englishmen of that era.

  131. Yngvar says:

    CAPULET
    But saying o’er what I have said before:
    My child is yet a stranger in the world;
    She hath not seen the change of fourteen years

    Would a woman write that? Juliet was thirteen years old.

    • Replies: @Logan
  132. dvorak says:
    @The Germ Theory of Disease

    …pulled his Latin phrases and jokes from schoolboy books, not from the originals read at Oxford…

    Stratfordianism has a natural affinity with the alt-right, as Ms. Harmon has intuited and then proven on Twitter.

  133. Lagertha says:

    My mother’s thesis (Master’s) was about the the fact (her research) that Shakespeare wrote his own plays. – my father, typed her thesis as she was about to deliver my brother.

    My mother was fluent in 5 languages…not sure most current, American Uni professors even speak as many! Just can’t stand American women who always feel a need to be sanctimonious – they are sooooo boring & insecure…and probably, no guy thinks they are hot (that has always been the problem)….and they have no guy, like my father, who would be typing their thesis while they are close to having their first baby.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  134. Keypusher says:
    @Steve Sailer

    The texts in the First Folio and the Quartos vary quite a bit in quality.

    One thing I’ve learned is that modern musicals are collaborative works, sometimes developed through workshops and readings between writer(s) and performers over years. Playwrights in Shakespeare’s era didn’t have that kind of time, but a playwright who was a member of a company (and the Lord Chamberlain’s Men/King’s Men was the #1 company in England) would surely have taken suggestions from his fellow actors. Robert Arnim was a fine writer himself.

  135. Anonymous[339] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lagertha

    My mother’s thesis (Master’s) was about the the fact (her research) that Shakespeare wrote his own plays.

    What was her argument?

    • Replies: @Lagertha
  136. Anonymous[339] • Disclaimer says:
    @Desiderius

    He wouldn’t be in DC otherwise.

    Your comment doesn’t make any sense. He wouldn’t be in DC if it weren’t for what?

  137. Logan says:
    @Steve Sailer

    All very logical points.

    I think a lot of that goes back to the immensely high intellectual and artistic status we assign to the plays today, versus their remarkably low status at the time.

    A great playwright today would be immensely jealous of his artistic integrity.

    Playwrights of 1600 were just trying to get butts in seats to make money.

    I recently finished a book about the Marx Brothers. Most of their movies were actually based on road trip shows they put together. They tried different things with each show, throwing out what didn’t work, keeping and expanding on what did.

  138. Lagertha says:
    @Anonymous

    That Francis Bacon was not the author of the plays. That the words Shakespeare used; the idioms and expressions were always consistent. His ways of expressing tension, motion, joy, sorrow, horror, relief, and indignation was always the same…also, describing the way things smelled or appeared, or sounded. I come from a family that smells stuff and we know…we know what is about to happen, or we remember what happened (good or bad).

  139. Logan says:
    @Brett_McS

    How’s that work?

    Gay men are a lot less likely to have descendants.

  140. Logan says:
    @Yngvar

    I’m curious.

    Why would a woman of the time not write that?

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