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Amazon and Unaffordable Family Formation
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As real estate prices in Seattle have grown to California levels, Amazon famously looked all over the country for where to place a “second” headquarters. Lots of observers naively assumed it would go for a nice place with a some room to grow, such as the Denver area.

Amazon ended up slicing the baby in half and awarding one HQ to Long Island City, NY and another to Crystal City, VA. The latter is right next to Washington DC’s in-close Ronald Reagan airport, and the former isn’t a suburb like it sounds, it’s a waterfront neighborhood in Queens across the East River from Times Square — i.e., perhaps the most in-town place you can be in NYC without being on Manhattan.

Some of these decisions no doubt are related to how much shakedown local officials were willing to pay. But an interesting point was made by Spotted Toad [link fixed].

A couple of years ago he pointed out how smart capitalists, and Jeff Bezos didn’t get to be the Richest Man in the World by not being smart, like Unaffordable Family Formation. It helps them squeeze more work out of workers:

The firms like being in places too expensive to raise a family– families are distractions, at least in the short-run. And once the smart set is composed of people living with roommates in their late 20s and early 30s, in the kind of neighborhoods that Arab princes and Chinese tycoons use as credit mobility vehicles, in a metropolitan mating market that facilitates everything but commitment, one can’t help but feel that the concentration of economic activity in spots of white-hot unaffordability will intensify, rather than relax.

Good call.

 
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  1. L Woods says:

    What a joke. Amazon made a mockery of every city government that troubled to submit an application, and every member of the public that troubled to pay attention. And oh yeah: because what DC really needs is even more males

  2. So our best and brightest aren’t breeding?

    • Agree: bomag
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    , @Excal
  3. istevefan says:

    Amazon ended up slicing the baby in half and awarding one HQ to Long Island City, NY and another to Crystal City, VA.

    New York was already solidly democrat. Now Virginia will move even more to the democrat side.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  4. Bugg says:

    The LIC location is a half mile by foot from the largest NYCHA-administered housing project in all of NYC, The Queensbridge Houses. It’s population is roughly 7,000 black and Latino people living on the dole or subsistence working class, many single parent families, most ill-educated, most below the poverty line, all within sight of midtown Manhattan. Will be interesting to see how many Queensbridge residents get jobs at Amazon. I would expect very few. Instead Amazon will probably hire newer arrivals to Queens like Pakistanis, Indians, Koreans and Chinese, all of whom are a within an easy subway ride from their own enclaves in Queens. Which is in part why many of the Ocasio-Cortez crowd is against it.

  5. Do you think Amazon keeps big data on their workforce?

  6. Spangel says:

    As a person born and still living in New York City, mr. toads description of the place is impeccable.

    Why can’t we all just work from home? I’d move to Wyoming.

  7. @istevefan

    Trantor is never coming back.

  8. the smart set is composed of people living with roommates in their late 20s and early 30s

    Also, 2+2=5.

    When you’re reduced to self-refuting sentences, the time has come to reevaluate your priors.

  9. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:

    I recall a study made many years ago discovered that when companies moved, they nearly always moved very close to where the CEO lived. A New York pick indicates that Bezos has an expensive apartment there like a lot of billionaires, and as for DC, of course he has a residence there, because that’s where he commutes to go hassle his Post workers.

  10. Spangel says:

    Nyc has been vying for a chance to make itself a major tech hub for years now. It is already the nations fashion, advertising, media (shared with LA), publishing, arts and finance capital. But all of those industries are declining while tech is becoming more and more of what drives the world. So they needed to be one of the nations tech capital too to avoid a decline. They already don’t have a great tech oriented school such as mit or cal tech. It’s something the city has been meaning to invest in. So i think they probably were willing to make more concessions than usual to get this amazon hq.

    Amazon wants its consumers to have families so they buy things. As for its workers, they prefer robots and factories that are kept dark at all times. The humans are there only when necessary, but the more they approximate robots in their work habits, the better. I guess having a family isn’t terribly robot like.

  11. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bugg

    That building won’t be there very long. They will be kicked out by eminent domain so they won’t prey on Amazon workers.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  12. Arclight says:

    I think this is correct, but it’s also really bad news. After all, it’s the ultra career-oriented/no children/miserable human being crowd that is driving our culture in academia, tech, and government already, and now our oligarchs are trying to create more people like that because they drive profits and power. Who are they going to take their angst out on?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  13. Worse traffic, higher taxes, and more hipsters for Arlington. ;-(

  14. @Spangel

    The locations you’d want to live in WY, you probably can’t afford. The locations you can afford you’d probably wouldn’t want to live in.

    • Disagree: Autochthon
    • Replies: @anon
    , @gunner29
  15. @Spangel

    hey already don’t have a great tech oriented school such as mit or cal tech.

    What’s Cornell building on an island in NYC? I can recall Cornell and Stanford being invited to build in NYC by Bloomberg. Stanford eventually decided they didn’t need the hassle, they are Stanford, while Cornell’s leadership fell it imperative that the Cornell brand get more of a footprint in New York City because upstate New York is in long term decline. So Cornell jumped thru all the hoops of doing a big project in NYC.

  16. @L Woods

    ‘…And oh yeah: because what DC really needs is even more males.’

    It has its points for those of us who live elsewhere.

  17. 3g4me says:
    @Spangel

    @6 Spangel: “As a person born and still living in New York City . . . I’d move to Wyoming.”

    And, undoubtedly, bring your politics and cultural attitudes with you.

    • Replies: @Spangel
  18. Excal says:
    @The Plutonium Kid

    In past ages, the best and brightest were shipped off to universities, seminaries, and priories, where they were not allowed to marry at all.

    They did it for the glory of God and the advancement of knowledge. We are half-resuming the practice for the service of Mammon.

  19. GLT says:
    @Spangel

    I think they are pretty agnostic regarding employees vs robots. I mean per Yahoo they have 566k employees (https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/AMZN/profile?p=AMZN). I think it’s influence on culture and politics first, the aforementioned shakedown second. Saying this as someone who thinks affordable family formation is extremely important (and would love to see a whole isteve book on the topic)

  20. Anecdotally I would say that Amazon workers in Seattle are more family oriented than in a typical tech company. It’s not Utah, but lots of 2 and 3 kid families. And lots of transfers from places that you don’t think of as tech hubs, with good representation from the South. I think Amazon has enough data and a good enough hiring process that they are actually moving away from the kinds of credentialism that drive other prestigious companies.

    Plus, if Bezos ever truly wants to get to trillions of people in the Solar System, I’m sure he’s done the math about the kind of people needed and the steady reproductive growth necessary. The flip side is that he’s not a big believer in the 2 car garage with the 1/4 acre lot. But it’s possible to live well with a family in the city if your fellow citizen is civilized.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/jeff-bezos-human-population-solar-system-1-trillion-space-travel-blue-origin-a8586861.html

  21. Anonymous[264] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    What’s Cornell building on an island in NYC?

    In 2011, Cornell Tech was named the winner of Mayor Mike Bloomberg’s Administration’s visionary Applied Sciences Competition, designed with the goal of diversifying the economy and creating a national hub for tech. … The City estimated in 2011 that the new campus would generate up to 8,000 permanent jobs, hundreds of spin-off companies and more than $23 billion in economic activity over a period of 35 years. The campus is built on 12 acres of City land. ….

    Cornell Tech was founded when the partnership of Cornell University and the Technion were selected in December of 2011 as one of the winners of New York City’s visionary Applied Sciences NYC initiative, created under Mayor Mike Bloomberg and Deputy Mayor Robert Steel. … The Cornell Tech proposal was selected by the City as the first winner of the competition and was provided with land on Roosevelt Island and $100 million in City capital to build the $2 billion, 2 million square foot tech campus.

    https://tech.cornell.edu/news/cornell-tech-campus-opens-on-roosevelt-island-marking-transformational-mile/

  22. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:

    I don’t know if this is true. Families buy lots of stuff. More than single people do. Single people spend proportionately more on eating out, going out, drinks, travel, etc., than on stuff. Amazon sells every kind of stuff, and it would benefit more from more families than it does now.

    Cities have always been more unaffordable than rural areas, and major businesses have always congregated in cities. Major American corporations from around the country established their headquarters in New York City in the late 19th/early 20th century. Amazon isn’t doing anything new. What’s different now is that in the past, there was a demographic balance between rural and urban areas. The rural areas had religious, family oriented cultures in which women generally did not have economic independence and were largely restricted to domestic work, and this had a pro-natalist effect which produced the demographic surplus that fed the cities, which are less fertile. Today, you still have cities, the demographic sinks, but you also have greater economic independence and freedom of women, which means you no longer have the widespread natalist culture outside the cities producing demographic surplus.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Rosie
  23. “Thanks, guys, I enjoyed your little presentations, but I think we’ll go with the financial capital and the seat of government. Thanks for playing!”

    • Agree: ben tillman
    • LOL: Trevor H.
    • Replies: @Wally
    , @Pericles
  24. Hgh says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Cornell’s Medical school has benn in NYC since 1898 or something.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  25. Spangel says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Yeah that looks like nyc’s best effort to build a reputable tech school. They already have a world class medical center through Cornell, so it makes sense that Cornell will expand their nyc campus into lic, which may help amazon get some talented interns and perhaps academic partners when needed.

  26. Dat ain’t the Queens of my youth. Drove down my mom’s old block recently and was saddened…

  27. Spangel says:
    @Chief Seattle

    It’s also been my impression that white collar workers at large corporations are family oriented. Almost everyone at Goldman Sachs and jpmorgan gets married and has children. It’s the creative types that do serial dating or long term celibacy and forgo family types- people at start ups, non profits, everyone in Williamsburg with their eccentric special projects- few of those go on to get married and have children if they stay in those areas of work. Partially because they don’t have the money. And maybe also because corporate types really have nothing else to do.

  28. Excal says:

    It is not so long ago that New York was arguably the great technology centre of the world. Columbia and NYU were great tech schools, at least at one time; Columbia in particular produced significant work in computer science. The first real compiler (Fortran, by John Backus) was developed at IBM in New York.

    The original Bell Labs building in New York — the place where modern electronics was invented, from negative feedback to the transistor — is now an artists colony, and there is not so much as a plaque to commemorate its original tenant.

    The New York tech companies eventually moved out to the suburbs and exurbs, and up north to Connecticut and Boston, and in some cases to the Bay Area in California: Silicon Valley was in part due to people from Bell Labs, like the notorious William Shockley (who had, however, Northern California roots, as did Ken Thompson).

    Bell Labs moved too — they built nice new suburban buildings for themselves in places like Murray Hill, New Jersey, where they continued inventing the modern age until they were finally done in by the anti-trust battles of the 70s. And IBM put down stakes in Armonk, like the Italians fleeing San Francisco for Marin County (though, admittedly, IBM were always a bit more upstate than city).

    I speculate that the various crises New York experienced in the 60s and 70s had a good deal to do with all that movement — or it could simply be that people get old and they want a bit of country life.

    Now that age is long past, and most of those companies are either gone or completely changed, and I suppose now the city is once again the place to be. Plus ca change .. Though I do hesitate to place Amazon in quite the same category as Bell Labs.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @Anonymouse
  29. countenance says: • Website

    I’m just amazed that anyone thought that Bezos would put his HQ2 in anything other than a “winner” city. My mistake is that thinking it would be D.C. “or” NYC, when my mistake was “or.” Bezos found a way to do “and.”

    Interestingly, pointing to Steve’s thesis, Amazon Germany’s HQ is in Munich, which is going away the most prosperous (GDP/capita) and highest cost of living of the major big name cities in Germany.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
  30. The problems with Amazon go far beyond the unaffordable family formation in its immediate environs. Amazon itself is a disease. It is more or less the poster child of all the degeneracy comprised by America’s post-Cold War, Unipolar, Globalist, Bubblicious moment.

    Amazon is an asset-stripping outfit that has massacred God only knows how many bread-winning jobs throughout the whole length and breadth of the American economy. It has helped to hollow out industry and retail while abusing and accelerating the decline of the country’s infrastructure and legacy institutions like the USPS. Additionally, it has helped to perpetuate an unsustainable entitlement mentality wherein everything one might want is conveniently available at the click of a mouse.

    There are signs that this is starting to change, however. Amazon’s ludicrous stock price is currently in a bear market and its popularity is on the wane. The millions of people who work in the low-end service sector jobs like Amazon and other megacorps are beginning to realize just what a raw deal the new economy has been for them. The consumers in the Princess economy, who are the primary purchasers of Amazonian convenience, will eventually be forced to reckon with the fundamentally uneconomical nature of their business model.

    Unfortunately, the destruction already wrought by Amazon has been immense and it will not be possible to return to the status quo ante. This was the inevitable blow-off phase of consumerism which will be succeeded by austerity and much lower standards of living.

    • Agree: Forbes
    • Replies: @jon
  31. Zach says:

    I imagine Bezos and co like young workers with a massive student debt hanging over them as well.

  32. Anonymous[218] • Disclaimer says:

    Is Munich one of the German cities where Germans are in the minority?

  33. @Bugg

    Expect the Affirmative Furthering of Affordable Invasion of white suburbs to go into overdrive. The Richest Man in the World, owner of the Washington Post, should be able to arrange this.

  34. Anonymous[346] • Disclaimer says:

    Crystal City is where all Beltway Bandits are headquartered. It is as close to the Pentagon as it is to DCA. CIA in Langley is 5 minutes up the GW Parkway. NGA 10 minutes up off MacAthur Blvd. Amazon is now in on the DoD/Intelligence agencies contracting business (cloud computing) big time. I correctly guessed year ago Amazon would have an HQ in DMV.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Anonymous
    , @edgar
  35. @L Woods

    because what DC really needs is even more males

    Well, it depends on what types of jobs Amazon is bringing. The social media explosion has brought many more attractive young women to San Francisco in the last decade. Social media and advertising type jobs tend to appeal to women.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  36. Lagertha says:
    @Steve Sailer

    kinda’ a duh. Amazon caved to safe neighborhoods with smart and desperate Millennilas: DC & NYC. I don’t know how Jeff can look himself in the mirror! He is such a serpent. Can no one, no one out there in the reaches of humane thought, call him out on this most mercenary move. It is always about $$$$$$ – or whatever currency is next.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  37. L Woods says:
    @Spangel

    Because how would the MBAs and extroverts get to feel important?

    • Replies: @Autochthon
  38. donut says:
    @Steve Sailer

    The Cornell University-Technion-Israel Institute of Technology graduate school of applied sciences . They are , I think , up to something sleazy with China in connection with this as well .

    • Replies: @donut
  39. J.Ross says: • Website
    @LittleNano

    Do you want to see the jars?

  40. @Steve Sailer

    The Cornell Tech satellite engineering campus opened last year on Roosevelt Island. It is a joint venture between Cornell and Technion, an elite Israeli engineering school.

    The student center, The Bloomberg Center (naturally), was designed by Morphosis, the LA based deconstructionist architecture firm founded by Thom Mayne. Mayne designed the Cal Trans District 7 Headquarters in downtown LA.

    • Replies: @Forbes
  41. They already don’t have a great tech oriented school such as mit or cal tech.

    M.I.T. and Cal Tech don’t specialize in that kind of “tech.”

  42. donut says:

    “Unaffordable Family Formation” . There is no excuse for these people not to have large families , they’re just lazy .

    See , even an unskilled “immigrant” can afford a family of 9 .

  43. @L Woods

    And oh yeah: because what DC really needs is even more males

    Huh? If tongue in cheek, i don’t get it.

    DC is about the most feminized city in the US. If Amazon actually does bring in workforce that skews male that would be a–very slight–balancing. (Plus be really nice for those guys.)

    • Replies: @Trevor H.
    , @Forbes
  44. AnotherMom and i were talking about this on the way to the airport this morning. I remarked that if i was running a tech company, i’d opt for someplace like Boise. Decent outdoor amenities but affordable housing.

    The truth is the people who are do the useful work in tech–well in everything else that matters also–are actually pretty regular guys, just smart. And they like stuff like being able to afford a nice house to raise a family.

    It’s not the urban hipster “cool kids” who come up with the ideas that move the ball forward. And they’re certainly not the guys who make stuff work. You don’t need them or need to appeal to them.

    Find a place for your business that makes life good for regular guy guys, and you’ll have a very loyal and effective workforce.

  45. donut says:
    @donut

    I have a slight connection with somebody involved with this . My opinion of him is that he is an untrustworthy person . I would be suspicious of anything he is connected to .

  46. Ibound1 says:

    We are lucky Amazon put half their offices in an already solid blue area. Their SJW workforce in their giant coffee shop looking offices, will be reliable democrat voters, sipping on their office latte, working 18 hours a day in their cool looking office that has a coffee bar, voting for such key issues as transgender bathrooms, the right pronoun, Me Too, Justice Kavanaugh, fair trade coffee. Things that impact their lives! 10,000 of those people in Arizona could turn an election.

    • Replies: @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
  47. @L Woods

    I have been told for years that the sex ratio in DC itself among the educated class in their 20′s and 30′s is highly skewed towards women, and this probably holds also in the parts of Arlington and Alexandria that are effectively parts of DC. This seems to make sense, as many of the jobs for the educated involve “fitting in” and “learning to play by the rules” and informal persuasion, which are areas where an ambitious young woman is liable to do better than a typical ambitious man. I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if Mr Bezos is thinking that these goodthinking young women wouldn’t prefer more well-compensated white and Asian computer geeks as companions, in contrast to the gays, soy boys, local color, and various right wing true believers who are found downtown. Then the ladies call tell their employers and friends what a wonderful company Amazon is, and how it really has the best interests of our nation at heart.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  48. J.Ross says: • Website

    A man in a fake Trump hat (who was certified by the best environmental physicists as having not been paid and instructed in advance to generate sympathy for the Jewish community) has gruesomely harassed a vigil of mourners of the Pittsburgh murders, with the result that one mourner attacked the guy — the one who is totally not an actor — and was arrested.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
  49. @Spangel

    New York City has two main technology strengths. First it is quite strong in the digital advertising market as it has been historically the capital of the nation’s advertising industry. Digital advertising is how Google and Facebook make their billions and there are many small tech companies in New York that thrive in that field.

    Secondly, New York City has become a hotbed for artificial intelligence in the last decade. Wall Street banks, hedge funds and high frequency traders have been at the forefront of developing advanced artificial intelligence for their automated trading platforms.

    “AI” has become a ubiquitous buzzword in corporate America in the last few years, but it really looks like the future. Google and Amazon are moving into New York City to target the high-end programming talent that coalesced around Wall Street.

    But make no mistake, the billions in subsidies and a personal helipad for Jeff Bezos is what sealed the deal.

  50. Trevor H. says:
    @AnotherDad

    The city may be “feminized” but the region already has a lot of high-tech and the military presence is enormous. Women remain wildly under-represented in both fields.

    In fact, nearly all military personnel are instructed to “dress down” (wear civilian clothing) while in the HQ region for political purposes–so that the metropolis doesn’t appear over-militarized.

    Both Washington and New York City have sophisticated, cosmopolitan, and highly-educated work forces. Along with all the other people living there.

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
  51. Daniel H says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Stupid place to put a campus. Roosevelt Island is an annoying little island. Despite spectacular views on both sides, lots of green space, a land bridge to Queens, and, recently, a subway, it has never caught on as a desirable place to live, or visit. It’s the one place in New York that recalls a quad of college dormitories. Dormitories of a 4th rate college. A site in Brooklyn or Queens would have been better for Cornell.

    And it’s not as if New York city is lacking in tech education. The city already has Columbia, NYU/Brooklyn Tech, Cooper Union and Stevens Institute right across the river in Hoboken, with quite a few lesser, but good enough institutions in Jersey and Long Island.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  52. I guess it depends who you plan on hiring. If you want fungible young professionals with a high turnover rate DC and NYC make total sense.

    If you want long term loyal employees who will spend their entire career on your company a more family friendly place (like Denver or Austin) would have been a good call.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
  53. @Chief Seattle

    It was originally a big advantage for Microsoft to be based in the relative isolation of Seattle.

    MS got a more stable workforce in a city where it was the only game in town. By contrast tech workers in Silicon Valley were crossing the street to change jobs every 6 mos. in the 90s.

  54. The boldest (and most fun) option would have been to pick out a nice empty spot and build a city of your own design from scratch.

    With 50,000 jobs you would have more than enough critical mass for every amenity anyone could need. If you made it nice enough other tech employers and residents would flock there.

    In the long run, you’d make more on the surrounding real estate (which of course you’d have bought up at the start), than from your original operations.

    But I guess it’s safer to extort money from pre-existing cities. That’s why Bezos is the richest man in the world and I’m not.

    • Agree: Stan d Mute
  55. Dunno if Amazon’s motivations are as you suggest. Family men are likely to change jobs less often, and tolerate more bullshit, than single people.

    I once worked for a company that moved from San Francisco to Santa Rosa, with the explicit goal of acquiring a more stable and mature work force.

    • Replies: @black sea
    , @Pericles
  56. J says: • Website
    @Bugg

    Amazon sees Queenbridge as empty, irrelevant. High tech companies go where capable employees are available. New York is still one of those places.

  57. @Anon

    That building won’t be there very long. They will be kicked out by eminent domain so they won’t prey on Amazon workers.

    But the Nets and the Mets already have their new stadia. Are they going to try to get the Jets back to Queens?

  58. JimB says:

    This is also the grad student and postdoc lifestyle, as well. Tenured professors go home to their luxury homes and twenty-something second wives at six o’clock leaving their graduate students to work in their lab cells until midnight. No doubt the inspiration for Bezo’s labor management strategy. Another is to make the workplace like a Casino with free restaurants, theaters, gyms, barber shops, and coffee shops so you never leave. Google does this.

  59. Is that cable car still the main way to get to Roosevelt Island? Seeing how the rest of New York’s infrastructure is maintained, I wouldn’t want to ride in it.

    To those who live there, that’s a feature, not a bug.

    But it could still use a hit song, like the one its big sister g0t:

    • Replies: @hhsiii
  60. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @AnotherDad

    The WSJ had an article earlier this century about a tech company that moved from the D.C. area to Colorado for similar reasons. They regretted the move because instead of working late like they did in metro D.C., their workers started leaving at reasonable hours to enjoy the outdoor amenities.

    There are psychos who enjoy outdoor activities all year round in New York, but for most people, the outdoors isn’t that enticing aside from the 3 or 4 months per year when it’s not cold or humid.

  61. Looking back, ya kinda wish these chicks were more successful in their fight with the big guys:

    Pioneering [formerly known as Amazon] feminist bookstore expected to close

  62. Ed says:

    There might be something to this. The guy that sits next to me in the office just came back from paternity leave, if you can call it that. He was gone 2 weeks and worked from home most of the time. He had his 2nd child/daughter. As people were stoping by to congratulate him, the directors and above would ask if he’s done yet in a nice way of course. I just thought that was odd thing to say to someone with 2 kids. It’s not like has 4 or 5. Our office is in DC.

    • Replies: @Moses
  63. @Daniel H

    Stupid place to put a campus. Roosevelt Island is an annoying little island.

    The charts we used in the Coast Guard in the Son of Sam era, put out by NOAA, still labeled it Welfare Island.

    https://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/2009/09/26/the-many-names-given-to-roosevelt-island/

    • Replies: @donut
  64. @Excal

    Claude Shannon didn’t move to New Jersey with the rest of Bell Labs when he was writing his late 1940s information theory paper. He liked live jazz too much so he just sat in an empty office building in Greenwich Village and wrote.

  65. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Clifford Brown

    New York already has a fairly large info tech presence too. Google’s building in NYC is larger than its Silicon Valley HQ; Facebook has a thousand employees in a Frank Gehry-designed building in the Village; LinkedIn occupies 5.5 floors of the Empire State Building; etc.

    • Replies: @ZeroDay
  66. @Hgh

    Do you need a big city hospital to have a top medical school? Is Ithaca too small to have enough different diseases?

    Medical education went the opposite path of law education. In Abraham Lincoln’s day, he became a lawyer by being an apprentice rather than attending classes. But now it’s 3 years of law school. When Charles Darwin, who was born on the same day as Lincoln, went to medical school for a couple of years, he just went to lectures and watched operations. Later in the 19th century, medical education switched to more of an apprentice system with Teaching Hospitals. Doctors got a lot better at curing people.

    • Replies: @Forbes
  67. @Chief Seattle

    In the case of the areas Amazon picked, inhabitant is more accurate than citizen.

  68. Tyrion 2 says:

    This observation wins the award for being one of the most obviously true, most surpising and most depressing, all at the same time.

    I wish I could unlearn this.

  69. @countenance

    Merkel needed to import those Syrians to do the Work Germans Won’t Do @Amazon!

  70. @Anon

    Although Bezos has enough skin in the game and a long enough track record of maximizing his wealth that he’d be the last CEO I’d expect to decide this way. On the other hand, maybe it really is something dumb like Bezo’s daughter loves Broadway musicals, so he picked a site near Broadway?

  71. @Hypnotoad666

    If you want long term loyal employees who will spend their entire career on your company a more family friendly place (like Denver or Austin) would have been a good call.

    Did you just stumble out of a 30-year cryo-sleep? If Denver and Austin are family friendly, then Baltimore is model of civic harmony.

    • Agree: Barnard
    • Disagree: Lowe
    • Replies: @Lowe
  72. @Trevor H.

    “-so that the metropolis doesn’t appear over-militarized”. You mean there are people who think if they don’t see the uniforms, the tourists will think D.C. is just a warmer Ottawa?

    • Replies: @Trevor H.
  73. 1) Who the f**** wants to live in Denver, much less South Dakota?

    2) Kids are for schmucks. How can you enjoy living steps away from 4,000 world restaurants, bars, and coffee places when you have to watch your rug rats?

  74. @Clifford Brown

    I have no direct knowledge of this, but my understanding of the sort of people who have been developing the very elite software in the NYC financial industry is that many if not all are among the objective ultra-elite, at least in terms of intelligence. Some of them are also no doubt quite knowledgeable in many ways. The whole thing got started, as I grasp it, when the academic job market began its continuing implosion, and smart guys who had idealistic aspirations began to turn towards nihilism and mammon. But it paid, and presumably still does. Bezos himself is richer than any of them, and can no doubt pick off a few. But if you have already embraced the nihilism of NYC finance, how is working for Amazon attractive?

    • Replies: @Spangel
    , @Desiderius
  75. ZeroDay says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    New Yorkers are the only people who will call a NYC satellite office the “New York Headquarters.”

  76. The Spotted Toad link is broken.

  77. Twinkie says:
    @Anonymous

    I correctly guessed year ago Amazon would have an HQ in DMV.

    Amazon Web Services – the cloud computing service with lots of government customers that happens to be the most profitable part of Amazon now – is already headquartered in Herndon, VA, which is surrounded miles and miles of townhouses and single families homes with quarter of an acre.

  78. @Twinkie

    In many ways this is actually a very different area though. Almost everyone there has earned “respectable” degrees, and this matters greatly, but I think that almost none of the “youngsters” who have “prestige” jobs in DC/Arlington/Alexandria venture that way. I suspect many of them could not identify Herndon on a map. I suspect many of them have literally never heard of Ashburn, VA, through which 70% of the world’s internet traffic goes.
    Of course all of these things are intimately connected, but very few people try to spell out how this all works…

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Jim Don Bob
  79. Anonymous[255] • Disclaimer says:
    @Desiderius

    They’re not ours.

    Where are ours then.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  80. Anonymous[255] • Disclaimer says:
    @Spangel

    It is already the nations fashion, advertising, media (shared with LA), publishing, arts and finance capital. But all of those industries are declining

    They are? Are you sure about that?

  81. Twinkie says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Virginia Tech is building a massive graduate school next to Amazon HQ2 in Crystal City.

  82. Anonymous[255] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Today, you still have cities, the demographic sinks, but you also have greater economic independence and freedom of women, which means you no longer have the widespread natalist culture outside the cities producing demographic surplus.

    Which is good, because the USA is overpopulated.

    • Replies: @Jim Bob Lassiter
  83. Twinkie says:
    @SporadicMyrmidon

    I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if Mr Bezos is thinking that these goodthinking young women wouldn’t prefer more well-compensated white and Asian computer geeks as companions, in contrast to the gays, soy boys, local color, and various right wing true believers who are found downtown.

    No. Those DC girls are hunting for older men with power or influence on the Hill,* not bearded tech bros. Meanwhile that nerdy male set in Dulles Tech Corridor are seeking Asian good girls in Centreville, not “politics is my life” Hill (female) rats who think that they are just so above the tech bros making $200k a year while living on starvation salary with roommates. Two completely different worlds.

    *But if they had to, just had to, they might settle for a lawyer on a partnership track out of Chevy Chase.

  84. Anonymous[255] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Crystal City is where all Beltway Bandits are headquartered.

    What are “Beltway Bandits”?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Lowe
    , @Jim Don Bob
  85. Anonymous[255] • Disclaimer says:
    @Twinkie

    which is surrounded miles and miles of townhouses and single families homes with quarter of an acre.

    Why do you point this out?

  86. Anonymous[255] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lagertha

    kinda’ a duh. Amazon caved to safe neighborhoods with smart and desperate Millennilas: DC & NYC.

    What is desperate about them?

  87. jon says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    @Intelligent Dasein
    You really do a lot on that blog of yours, I can see why you link it to your sig on here.

  88. George says:

    OK, but why does it work? My guess, there are a few key employees and the rest are irrelevant to the success/failure of a project. Those few key employees like wealthy places. Occasionally a key man crosses a line, witness the recent ‘industrial action’ by Googlers over Andy Rubin’s behavior(s).

    Another reason is that their necessarily diverse workforce does not get along with the locals in less expensive places. For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Olathe,_Kansas_shooting .

    Olathe’s Garman is a case of an also-ran in the tech business. Are there any examples of top tier businesses, outside of minerals and agriculture, that are outside some very expensive tech centers? It is kind of amazing how far Tesla has gotten given how distant it is from Detroit or Germany and Japan.

  89. @Excal

    Not really, they became nobility i.e warriors and estate owners. The second sons when they weren’t being all Poped up conquered the world.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  90. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    The rural areas had religious, family oriented cultures in which women generally did not have economic independence and were largely restricted to domestic work, and this had a pro-natalist effect which produced the demographic surplus that fed the cities, which are less fertile.

    Anon276, quit beating around the bush and tell us exactly what you suggest.

    Cities have always been more unaffordable than rural areas, and major businesses have always congregated in cities.

    Not so. There are many towns that owe their existence to the location of one factory. When one closes, there are none to take its place because all the new plants are opened in China. Only the financial and managerial work was concentrated in cities.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  91. Bill P says:

    I don’t think limiting fertility is the main consideration, although it’s a side benefit. Amazon employs a largely transient workforce, with the average worker lasting only about two years. This is because of the cut-throat corporate culture and unreasonable demands put on employees, such as regularly waking them up in the middle of the night to have them deal with issues that come up.

    A friend of mine managed to last about four years at the company, but by the end of his tenure there was no one else left that had been in his department from the beginning. This in itself was demoralizing, so he quit and got a more stable job.

    In order to fill all the positions with this mode of employment you have to be in a place that is heavily populated with ambitious young people. NYC and DC fit the bill. It’s that simple.

    Tech, at least in Seattle, has lost its sheen over the years as it has become associated with weird, foreign workers, and Seattle, as it has become filled with foreign tech workers and become immensely more expensive has lost it’s sheen as well. Amazon needed to go somewhere else because people don’t think relocating to Seattle is worth it anymore. So instead of trying to get the people to come to them, Amazon went where the people already are.

    I just hope they take a hefty chunk of their Seattle workers with them. That company really wrecked Seattle.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @Desiderius
  92. anon[190] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    …a long enough track record of maximizing his wealth that he’d be the last CEO I’d expect to decide this way.

    Looked at from the other end, you could say that he can more easily afford it than most of the other muckity-mucks.

  93. @Excal

    A friend of mine who was an actress in one of the sillier downtown theater troupes got an apartment in the old Bell Labs complex. I tried to hang a picture for her by hammering a nail into the wall. No go. By the law of cosmic indifference, her ex-husband also somehow scored an apartment there. He wrote poetry, novels, earned a living as an editor at an avant-garde publisher and when someone was needed to teach hoity-toity literature courses at Stanford to fill a sudden vacancy, without a college degree to his name, he was hired and spent the next 30 years teaching there. He never got over his ex-wife’s sexual betrayals and cultivated his hatred of her and everyone else, writing it up over and over in recherche unreadable novels. Eventually he retired and returned to Brooklyn where he died of lung cancer.

  94. @LittleNano

    Does Amazon keep data on its workers? Is the Pope a gay socialist who protects pederasts?

  95. Twinkie says:
    @SporadicMyrmidon

    I think that almost none of the “youngsters” who have “prestige” jobs in DC/Arlington/Alexandria venture that way. I suspect many of them could not identify Herndon on a map. I suspect many of them have literally never heard of Ashburn, VA, through which 70% of the world’s internet traffic goes.

    Older people in leafy neighborhoods in NW DC may not have heard of Ashburn, but people in Arlington and Alexandria are not that disconnected to the likes of Reston, Dulles, and Ashburn. Moreover, a lot of people who work on K Street and Foggy Bottom who have children live out there. And many federal agencies have satellite offices there. CIAU, for example, is in Dulles, surrounded by suburban highway exits, townhouses, and single family homes.

  96. Twinkie says:
    @Bill P

    I just hope they take a hefty chunk of their Seattle workers with them. That company really wrecked Seattle.

    You must not remember the whole “Would the last person to leave Seattle, please turn off the light?” thing before the rise of the tech industry when Seattle was a failing logging/Boeing company town.

    • Replies: @Bill P
  97. TheJester says:
    @L Woods

    Going back to the Jacqueline Kennedy saga, I thought women flocked to Washing DC to find rich and powerful husbands. If things have changed, it’s that Federal agencies are now full of females in various sinecures looking for affirmative action promotions as holding patterns until they find that better life. The jobs are assigned on a quota basis; that is, the number of blacks and women at the various levels within the civil service hierarchy in your organization.

    The affirmative action positions are an “easy do”. They include job descriptions no one can understand and job performance criteria that no one can fail. The result is that the government is full of jobs where senior managers and supervisors often do not understand what their people do.

    And we wonder why Trump is failing to “drain the swamp”? The Washington DC culture is corrupt to the core. I suspect that there is a good chance that the new Amazon HQ in Crystal City next to the Pentagon and across the river from the Imperial Forum will catch the infection.

    Recall the adage that people should be careful about what they want … because they might get it: Jeff Bezos wants his new headquarters to be close to the Empire’s power centers to ward off regulation and antitrust actions. This may come at a heavy price for a company noted for its efficient operations and execution.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @bomag
  98. donut says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    They established a ferry service Brooklyn to the island a year or so ago I believe which makes it much less annoying to get to .

    • Replies: @Clifford Brown
  99. black sea says:
    @International Jew

    Amazon’s strategy for office staffing seems to be to hire a lot of young, bright, enthusiastic naifs who can be worked to exhaustion, then easily replaced. You squeeze all the juice out of them that you can. They stagger away with Amazon on their CV, and you rinse and repeat.

    Maybe it’s a a win-win, since Amazon doesn’t seem all that interested in handing out gold watches, and the average Amazon employee only stays with the company for 14 months. Obviously, there are lots of articles circulating around that suggest it’s a lousy place to work, but I’m sure some people must love it.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  100. Hodag says:

    Spotted Toad = gwern??? Gwern was talking about high cost cities preventing people from leaving their tech jobs….

  101. Pericles says:
    @Ghost of Bull Moose

    “Thanks, guys, I enjoyed your little presentations, but I think we’ll go with the financial capital and the seat of government. Thanks for playing!”

    “Please exit through the gift shop, pick up a voucher from our associate at the exit, and see you around.”

  102. black sea says:
    @The Alarmist

    How can you enjoy living steps away from 4,000 world restaurants, bars, and coffee places when you have to watch your rug rats?

    Hard though it may be to believe, for lots of people, living steps away from thousands of bars, restaurants, and coffee shops isn’t really that big of a deal.

    Pigs at the trough, and so forth . . .

  103. LondonBob says:
    @Spangel

    If the work can be done in Wyoming then it can be done in India, so it is outsourced further away, although back in the day Citi outsourced a lot to Belfast and Buffalo, not just Chennai. The irony being AI and robotics is seeing these jobs being insourced now with a manager in London overseeing the machines.

  104. Bill P says:
    @Twinkie

    That was before I was born, but it relates to where I was born. Seattle real estate was so cheap in those days that my dad bought a house on Capitol Hill with a sweeping view overlooking Union Bay while in his mid 20s.

    And he was working at the Rainier brewery at the time.

    I’ll take that Seattle over what it’s become any day.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  105. LondonBob says:

    Companies tend to cluster where they can recruit the necessary workforce, London is Europe’s financial capital due to the University of London, LBS, Oxbridge etc.

  106. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad

    You could pick Colorado or maybe Austin but even amongst programmers there’s a strong desire to be in a “cool” place. Most would rather be dead than live in e.g. Boise. Plus many are Indian or Asian and have a horror of living outside of a large metro area.

  107. Pericles says:
    @International Jew

    Netflix seem to prefer hiring scarred old Java dudes.

  108. @Excal

    That was only for a brief period- 11th century to 16th. Prior to that concubines were common for priests and afterwards the Protestants returned to married priests. Note the Orthodox never went for the insanity of celibate priesthood.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    , @Precious
  109. @Anonymous

    It’s an interesting difference between hardware and software engineers. In the old days of Silicon Valley, when it was mostly hardware engineers (e.g., Intel and Apple), the center was down around Palo Alto, which has lots of hiking and other outdoor recreation opportunities. But as “Silicon Valley” has moved toward software and marketing, the center has relocated toward highly urban San Francisco.

  110. AndrewR says:
    @Anon

    While it’s not too difficult to imagine Bezos micromanaging WaPo (when he’s taking a break from micromanaging Amazon), is there any evidence that he does?

  111. Twinkie says:
    @Bill P

    Do you know what unemployment was like in Seattle those days? There was a reason why “Seattle real estate was so cheap.”

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @Bill P
  112. @Anonymous

    India IS in Asia. See what I mean people about the stupid term “Asian”?

    Anyway, I didn’t come on here to labor that point, but just to say that you have a very good theory there. Oriental people especially (not sure about dot-Indians) really want to live in “the” big city, with NYC being barely large enough to be respectable. They think that anyone living outside or far from a big city is a peon or pennyless scum. It’s just the culture. That could indeed be a very big factor.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  113. This is going to cause Charlotte and Raleigh to waste millions more on trying to be Richard Florida World Class cities.

  114. @Twinkie

    That was back in 1971 after Boeing employment went from over 120,000 or so down to below 40,000. As someone wrote above about company towns, this was an example of a big bust. It was at least not due to work going to China, which was pretty much a hellhole at that time.

    The jumbo-jet 747 that Boeing had bet the company developing was done with most development, having flow in either the end of ’69 or ’70 to Paris on its inaugural passenger flight. I am guessing this is when the SST development had been curtailed due to environmental and cost concerns. That SST was to be the next big thing, and the B-747 originally was to be that big slow-ass* freighter and not the hot project.

    That Seattle would have been a hell of a place to settle down into at that point, as Bill P. pointed out. I’d have bought a place on top of any one of the hills or ridges, but Queen Anne would have been nice. The area is beautiful, with Mt. Rainier appearing as a big ice cream cone out of the blue summer sky from 50 miles away, and the Olympic Mountains to the west and the Cascades to the east, but it’s not the same people as in the mid-1990′s even.

    .

    * even though it’s on the fast side for passenger jets, but it’s all fairly small potatoes – maybe 500 kt. true airspeed vs 460 kt.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  115. @Steve Sailer

    Along with #276′s point, I believe this too. BTW, there are no software engineers, just programmers, developers, etc. That’s not to say they aren’t some very bright people, but they aren’t engineers and have a different mentality.

    Maybe just young people have changed, period. Even those making the barely-livable wages from working in coffee shops and restaurants spend all that “excess” income hanging out in, you guessed it, coffee shops and restaurants.

    It used to be the in thing to have a kayak tied to your Isuzu Trooper’s roof rack, even if it hadn’t been in the water in a half year. Many young people, though, did do all the trendy outdoor stuff, kayaking, rock climbing, hiking a big portion of the Pacific Crest Trail, etc. Now, it’s just sit in the coffee shop reading the whole internet on one’s computer – that should be for the old people. The young people really ought to get outside, for the health of the body AND mind.

    Hell, we all should get out more. That brings me back to Seattle and western Washington State. What better big city area is there for hiking besides California, Denver/Boulder, and maybe Albuquerque? Of course, it’s kinda gloomy for 4 – 8 months, especially the time when it’s not light out until 8A and gets dark at 4:30, especially on the 90% cloudy days, but then, it’s not very cold either.

  116. Anonymous[346] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    What are “Beltway Bandits”?

    U.S. Government/defense contractors. For instance, contained in their mission statements you will find something like:

    …providing critical information technology services to U.S. government clients in national security, civil government, and health care and public health. Our largest market, national security, includes the Department of Defense, Homeland Security, U.S. Army, U.S. Air Force, U.S. Navy, and intelligence agencies.”

  117. Anonymous[346] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    It’s an interesting difference between hardware and software engineers. In the old days of Silicon Valley, when it was mostly hardware engineers (e.g., Intel and Apple), the center was down around Palo Alto, which has lots of hiking and other outdoor recreation opportunities. But as “Silicon Valley” has moved toward software and marketing, the center has relocated toward highly urban San Francisco.

    The former, while still nerdy with pocket protectors, were masculine men who built things, raised families, and changed the oil in their wood-paneled Ford LTD station wagons. A lot of them saw combat in WWII and Korea but you’d never know it as they never talked about it. I.e. our dads. They worked with other men.

    The latter are secretarial and thus more feminine. The men there are not good with their hands, don’t want families (at most a kid or two for their urban life), and have no real attachment to their country. They work in unisex environment which further feminizes them.

  118. Corvinus says:

    “The firms like being in places too expensive to raise a family– families are distractions, at least in the short-run. And once the smart set is composed of people living with roommates in their late 20s and early 30s, in the kind of neighborhoods that Arab princes and Chinese tycoons use as credit mobility vehicles, in a metropolitan mating market that facilitates everything but commitment, one can’t help but feel that the concentration of economic activity in spots of white-hot unaffordability will intensify, rather than relax.”

    Unless we have Bezos on tape or have documents saying that his two selections for Amazon HQ’s is about facilitating unaffordable family formation, Spotted Toad and our intrepid host are speculating in a wild manner.

  119. Mr. Anon says:

    Tucker Carlson had a guest on last night – a New York State Assemblyman who was critical of the deal – who brought up a good point. Bill de Blasio and Andrew Cuomo would undoubtedly pooh-pooh the idea of trickledown economics – they undoubtedly have done so over the years; “trickle-down economics” has been a Democratic Party curse-word since the early 80s. And yet, they have just endorsed the idea by giving what amounts to a huge tax-break to the richest man on Earth with the expectation that it will spur economic growth.

    • Agree: SporadicMyrmidon
  120. Mr. Anon says:
    @Anon

    I recall a study made many years ago discovered that when companies moved, they nearly always moved very close to where the CEO lived.

    When Boeing moved its corporate HQ to Chicago back in 2001, a common rumor floating around Seattle was that Boeing’s CEO’s mistress lived in Chicago.

  121. @Samuel Skinner

    Well said. There is no need to require highly intelligent people to be barren and never has been. We should be doing the opposite. It’s quite possible to be a productive scholar, teacher, minister, inventor, whatever, and have a wife and children.

    • Replies: @gunner29
  122. @Clifford Brown

    Too bad most of them are brainwashed to reflexively resent men, have no loyalty to their people and nation, and have no interest in raising a family. What would attract NORMAL women to the area?

  123. peterike says:
    @Bugg

    The LIC location is a half mile by foot from the largest NYCHA-administered housing project in all of NYC, The Queensbridge Houses. It’s population is roughly 7,000 black and Latino people living on the dole or subsistence working class, many single parent families, most ill-educated… Will be interesting to see how many Queensbridge residents get jobs at Amazon.

    Actually, this is literally part of Amazon’s agreement with NYC:

    “In addition, the Company will hold or participate in events on a semi-annual basis at Queensbridge Houses such as job fairs and resume workshops in order to promote employment opportunities to NYCHA tenants for at least the initial three years of the project, starting in calendar year 2020. Thereafter, the parties will collaborate in good faith to determine additional measures to support NYCHA tenants.”

    Job fairs in the projects! Actually, for the handful of Urkels that might live there, it could be a god-send. And when you have a big campus, you DO need janitors, doormen, cleaning people, etc., so they might hire from there. But there are tons of those jobs available anyway, and they don’t seem to want them.

    The agreement with NYC is full of PC blather. You can read it here:

    https://d39w7f4ix9f5s9.cloudfront.net/4d/db/a54a9d6c4312bb171598d0b2134c/new-york-agreement.pdf

    The Long Island City area has also become very Chinese. In the new, high-rise apartments you probably have at least 50% Chinese tenants, then 25% mixed “other immigrants” of so many kinds you can’t count. It’s like the Star Wars Cantina. And then a few white people, and half of those are Russians, Eastern Europeans or people of unidentifiable origin who look like mountain bandits. The percentage of non-immigrant white people in Long Island City is tiny. You see some by the Supreme Court Building, lawyer types. And a lot of the countless construction workers are white guys from the suburbs. But a lot are Mexicans, etc. All the doctors around here have names like Batral Kamal Kumar (a real name) and most have degrees from some foreign medical school. God knows what goes on there. But then, one subway stop away in Manhattan you have lots of 80%+ white/Jewish medical groups (20% Asian and growing fast) with Ivy League doctors and some of the best healthcare in the world.

    Many of the Chinese in Long Island City are young students, who use these $4,000 a month apartments like dorm rooms, and share them 3 to 4 to an apartment. There’s a lot of turnover.

    There are at least four or five more massive apartment towers being built already within walking distance, which will likely take a lot of the Amazon worker overflow.

    The local politically active types are in a tizzy against it, as is typical with anything that happens in New York. They seem mostly angry that Bezos got his couple of billion in tax cuts. Even the street hustler politicians of New York understand that he likely would have picked New York anyway, so they gave away money they didn’t have to.

    Of course, they are all screaming they want the money for “housing” and “education,” and sure, why not? The plan is only to spend $25 billion on NYC education in 2019. How can you survive on such peanuts!

    The public housing is indeed dreadful and falling into ruin, like so much New York City infrastructure, from decades of neglect. If you want a great look at Queensbridge, this website, run by a crazy Marxist white person (far as I can tell), is an unintentionally hilarious look at life in Queensbridge. My favorite was that a little while back the NY Times published a congratulatory piece about how Queensbridge went a full 365 days without a shooting! But the guy on this website says it’s a big lie and he points out a number of shootings that didn’t get counted, for whatever reason.

    http://www.queensbridge.us/

  124. Anonymous[117] • Disclaimer says:
    @L Woods

    what DC really needs is even more males

    Uninformed comment. DC is notorious for being one of the few major urban centers with an excess of females in the white collar demographic.

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
  125. Anonymous[117] • Disclaimer says:

    Tenured professors go home to their luxury homes and twenty-something second wives at six o’clock

    Inaccurate on all counts. Life is not a Woody Allen movie.

    • Replies: @South Texas Guy
  126. Corn says:

    F—- Amazon. I’ve been boycotting them ever since they filed a court brief opposing Trump’s travel ban.

    And did you hear that in order to get an Amazon HQ in Virginia the state government agreed to combat FOIA requests served on Amazon?

    Bow to your corporate overlords.

  127. @Steve Sailer

    Steve, all the personnel considerations as regards the 20-30 roommated, in debt workforce aside (those are happy consequences), there were other reasons.

    Logistics for DOD and NSA and CIA Clouds are one reason. Their Cloud computing contracts at 20 billion dollars and growing is REAL easy to service a half-mile from the Pentagon and the massive electrical and data infrastructure of Northern Virginia.

    Another reason for the Northern Virginia location, right across the river in DC are the main offices of Bezos favorite toy after rockets and Amazon, the Washington Post with Robinson Terminal right up 395 and in Old Town Alexandria. And of course, the reason ALL government contractors of the Defense and Intel sort move to Northern Virginia, access. Access to tech, to K Street, to their Congressmen and their best friends at the Pentagon.

    There is a reason Northern Virginia is the richest region in the world, per capita. All this is why. Hell, a fair amount of it moved from your beloved California. Tax breaks, etc. The exploitable workforce there, hell, that’s a given EVERYWHERE. Everywhere.

  128. @Arclight

    Who are they going to take their angst out on?

    We’d best get busy making sure the answer is the oligarchs or, failing that, one another, because the default is us and our posterity.

  129. Spangel says:
    @3g4me

    I read this site. What do you think my politics are, lol?

  130. @black sea

    Sounds like the traditional stint in the military for scions of the ruling classes.

  131. Spangel says:
    @SporadicMyrmidon

    There are a few thousand such people probably. The higher order financial model makers tend to have phds and tend to be very highly intelligent, but for every one of them, there are 50 lower level programmers + support people to execute on relatively repetitive tasks.

    I don’t know if amazon wants to compete with the hedge fund and portfolio management world for their model makers since those guys are getting paid like 400k+ a year. They might but they could also go like Facebook, whose nyc roles tend to be related to advertising and marketing.

  132. @Bill P

    Amazon = ersatz military for Progworld.

  133. Bill P says:
    @Twinkie

    It wasn’t so bad if you didn’t work for Boeing. My grandpa did work at Boeing at the time, and he was lucky to have kept his job, but he’s the only person in my extended family who faced any threat.

    People were moving out to the ‘burbs anyway. My parents were the only ones in their generation who stayed in the city. That’s why real estate was so cheap then. It was the same in San Francisco, and probably a lot of other cities, too.

  134. Barnard says:
    @Excal

    Given the number of Popes and Cardinals who had children during that era, it would be safe to assume they reproduced at a higher rate than the Silicon Valley nerds do today.

  135. @The Alarmist

    2) Kids are for schmucks. How can you enjoy living steps away from 4,000 world restaurants, bars, and coffee places when you have to watch your rug rats?

    The weird thing is that there are huge numbers of people now–brainwashed by Hollyweird’s fags–who actually think that way.

    That putting some different combinations of spices and meat and veggies togehter–”Hey have you been to that new Tibetan-Peruvian fusion place?”–is cool and “interesting”.

    But the most complex, involved and rewarding thing in the world–having and raising children to replace you in your civilization–is “boring”.

  136. As of 2015 the median income in Crystal City, VA was nearly $86K and family income was $103K. Those will be headed upwards shortly.

  137. @Steve Sailer

    Look at Gates and his move to S Fla in Wellington. Yes, the NYC site (LI City? A shithole that would be Camden or Detriot without proximity to the City) is probably the result of a Bozos fetish. As others have noted, Crystal City makes more sense given AWS collaboration with FedGov and the profusion of DCs in VA. I thought S Fla would wind up with the site given its tech history (IBM Boca, NASA tech, Magic Leap, etc) and role as capital of Latin America – plus it’s the furthest possible point from Seattle.

    As an anti-cannabis guy, I’m wondering what you think of Amazon’s extensive catalog of marijuana related products. You can buy everything (except seeds or clones) you need to grow, process (including extracts), and consume cannabis from Amazon. It’s probably the number one pot business on the internet today. This despite the fact that Tommy Chong went to federal prison for licensing his name to a bong product line.

  138. @Bugg

    Yeah, and all on H-2B visas. As to the Queensbridge Houses, the City of New York could sell ‘em off to Amazon as a way of recouping some if not all of the $1.7B handout they gave to Bezos. In turn, Amazon could refurbish the buildings and create apartments for their employees to live in. As to the denizens of the project, well, there’s always the usual Section-8 vouchers, which have been a convenient way for big cities to rid themselves of a redundant, essentially inert, population.

  139. @The Alarmist

    1) Who the f**** wants to live in Denver, much less South Dakota?

    Probably people who prize nature and the outdoors and who appreciate the lore of the frontier and Old West.

    2) Kids are for schmucks. How can you enjoy living steps away from 4,000 world restaurants, bars, and coffee places when you have to watch your rug rats?

    Young people have a tendency to like living in a place with lots of trendy restaurants and such more than they do actually patronizing them.

    These hot places aren’t really cities in any real sense – they’re Disneyfied extensions of the college campus.

  140. edgar says:
    @Anonymous

    Good call. No doubt now that Amazon will be awarded the JEDI contract.

  141. @SporadicMyrmidon

    But if you have already embraced the nihilism of NYC finance, how is working for Amazon attractive?

    It doesn’t take extraordinary intelligence to convince oneself that finance is so well remunerated because the service one is providing is valuable. It may even be true.

    Any nihilism involved is likely a hangover from buying too much into the SJW sheep’s clothing of the K-grad wolf.

    • Replies: @L Woods
    , @Anon
  142. @AnotherDad

    It’s not their civilization.

  143. George says:
    @L Woods

    Is it possible that Amazon is no longer as flush as it used to be?

    The stock is down. Maybe while the stock was in lift off an HQ2 seemed like a good idea especially as Seattle got obstreperous stuff like homeless people. I suspect Seattle quieted down and Amazon no longer has $10B to drop on biosphere style offices. So they will expand some existing office space, including Nashville. Amazon might also not be truly expanding their head count. They might just fill existing positions lost to ‘attrition’. They will hire 50,000 individuals but in a longer timeframe and the new hires will be similar to those that will leave the company during the same period.

    • Replies: @Chief Seattle
  144. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    We’re talking about headquarters, not factories.

    Incidentally, factories were originally concentrated in more urban areas like Massachusetts and NYC before being “offshored” further and further west and eventually to the South and finally overseas.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  145. JMcG says:
    @AnotherDad

    Nicely put. You have a way with a phrase.

  146. @L Woods

    What a joke. Amazon made a mockery of every city government that troubled to submit an application, and every member of the public that troubled to pay attention.

    You’re right, but it was a silly notion to begin with. You can’t have more than one headquarters, and now they claim to have three?

  147. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad

    It’s about where the executives want to live. What’s the point of being an exec of a major company if you’re going to live in Boise? Execs are at the top of the food chain, so they don’t have to worry about affordability in the expensive metro areas. And tech companies don’t have lots of programmer employees compared to the factories of yore.

    Moreover, you need women to start families. How many young women do you think there are in places like Boise? How many young women do you think want to move to places like Boise? In the past, women were denied educational and career opportunities, and were thus more or less stuck in the areas they were from and distributed throughout the country. Now of course women can and do leave those areas.

    • Replies: @Anon
  148. @Anonymous

    You could pick Colorado or maybe Austin but even amongst programmers there’s a strong desire to be in a “cool” place. Most would rather be dead than live in e.g. Boise. Plus many are Indian or Asian and have a horror of living outside of a large metro area.

    Boise *is* cool, and India is *in* Asia.

    • Replies: @Lowe
  149. @AnotherDad

    They’re trying to draw talent which consists mostly of young single guys (and a few single women).

    While the guys might enjoy outdoor recreation, they’re not likely to find a princess out in the middle of nowhere. The lopsided gender ratio is probably one of the most dismal features about Seattle. The brogrammers are desperate & lonely and the competition is fierce in a setting that had already always been dominated by bros in male dominated forestry, fisheries, resource & aerospace industries or from the military & naval bases in the area.

    It was bad in pioneer times. Not sure it’s improved much.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercer_Girls

    In a place like Boise it might even be harder.

    Also good luck recruiting married power couples whose wives can’t resist bright city lights and their cultural temptations. Men may not care much about dining & going out, shopping, arts & entertainment or people watching, but they do care very much about the women who do!

  150. hhsiii says:

    My wife commented when I relayed this to her that they likely also want to keep down medical costs. Free insurance for a family of 6 is quite expensive.

    LIC around 30 years ago was mostly irish and italian cops and firemen etc in the decent part. Now a ton of high-rises, craft beer bars (LIC is a good one, but it’s actually close to the Ravenswood Queensbridge projects, like Mobb Deep, Nas, Marly Marl, some basketball players like Metta World Peace, but that isn’t really LIC although it’s called that). Lots of flat fixed, pep boys, body shops there, too. The upscale LIC is closer to the water and the Pepsi Sign you can see from the FDR Drive looking across East River.

  151. hhsiii says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Yes, the tram is a way to go. There’s also an F train stop.

    My wife won’t take the tram. My daughter loves it. We only go now and then. My wife hates heights, although she works on the 19th floor of 4 World Trade. When we first dated a litle over 10 years ago a bunch of people got trapped on the tram for hours. Neither car worked so they had to get a gondola over there (power was out) and bail them out mid-air. I called her up and we watched some of it together.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/19/nyregion/midair-rescue-lifts-passengers-from-stranded-east-river-tram.html

    I wouldn’t like that either although hasn’t stopped me from going. Getting stuck in the subway between stations bothers me more than being on the tram. If it ever stopped I’d freak. But what are you going to do?

    It’s been fixed and no accident since then. It’s a pretty spectacular view.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  152. @Ibound1

    Virginia is a solid blue state now, too.

  153. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad

    Men never used to “watch the rugrats”. They had to work constantly because society was much poorer, but they didn’t really do anything to raise the children besides bringing home the bacon. Women took care of the kids and raised them. So it’s not like men today are avoiding something that they did in the past.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  154. @Anonymous

    Beltway Bandits is the pejorative name given to many of the companies (CACI, LockheedMartin, NorthrupGrumman, etc) in the DC area who do nothing but supply bodies to government contracts. The true size of federal employment is masked by the hundreds of thousands of people who staff government contracts such as “provide IT support to GSA”.

    These contractors cost the government a lot of money; people are typically billed out to the government at twice, or more, what they are paid. The other half goes to employee benefits, overhead, and profit.

    But from the government’s point of view, this is a good deal, because they have a lot of flexibilty – they don’t have government (possibly unionized) employees to deal with, and they can cancel the contract anytime they want to.

    Note: LockheedMartin and NorthrupGrumman do actually make things, but the majority of their business is contracting.

    • Replies: @Anon
  155. Lowe says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    They’re much family-friendlier than New York City.

  156. Lowe says:
    @ben tillman

    Boise is not cool, and nobody on Earth was confused by his statement about Asians.

    • Replies: @ben tillman
    , @Dave Pinsen
  157. @SporadicMyrmidon

    I suspect many of them could not identify Herndon on a map. I suspect many of them have literally never heard of Ashburn, VA,…

    I live inside the Beltway and I -do- know where Herndon and Ashburn are. They are in the eastern part of West Virginia.

    • LOL: Twinkie
    • Replies: @Twinkie
  158. anon[694] • Disclaimer says:

    I’m just glad that they didn’t pick a Red state, move in and turn it blue. That would be pure evil.

    Places like NYC and VA are already blue, fuck ‘em. Let them go eat the traffic congestion, unaffordable home prices and H1b slaves from Chindia.

    Now if only MSFT would follow suit.

  159. Corn says:
    @Anon

    I live in central Illinois. A little over a year and a half ago construction equipment manufacturer Caterpillar moved their HQ to Chicago suburb Deerfield.

    Why?

    Official reason was closer to transport hubs something something but that hadn’t been an issue for close to 100 years . It’s widely suspected that the move occurred because the CEO was from Chicago and he thought Peoria was just a cowtown.

    • Replies: @Drunk Commenter
  160. Forbes says:
    @Bugg

    And less than half a mile by foot are the dozen or so high rise residential buildings that have gone up in the last 5 years, many still under construction, while others remain well short of occupancy. Except for the 28-year old CitiGroup building One Court Square (50 stories, 658 feet), Long Island City was an industrial and warehouse district, with minimal housing.

    It worth pointing out that Queensbridge Houses are separated from Amazon’s new neighborhood by the Queensboro Bridge and Queensboro Plaza elevated subway station–superstructures that operate as physical, if not mental barriers.

    One Court Square is the building Amazon is eventually taking something like 20 floors.

    LIC is turning into Midtown East-Across-the-River, except some/many will balk at paying Midtown prices for a Long Island City address. Now, if they got the USPS and city to change the neighborhood name to, say, Court Square, they might have a gold mine.

    Though one fathoms a guess that Amazon is not paying anything near the income necessary to move into the new housing in their neighborhood.

  161. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    We’re talking about headquarters, not factories.

    Right. The factories are all gone.

    Incidentally, factories were originally concentrated in more urban areas like Massachusetts and NYC before being “offshored” further and further west and eventually to the South and finally overseas.

    Are you claiming there is no difference between relocating jobs to rural America and relocating them to foreign sweatshops?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  162. Stick says:

    The commute to Crystal City is gonna be great! Putting Amazon right next to the Pentagon will prevent any family formation. All the Marines I know who work the area leave their homes in Quantico 0400 to be at work on time. I live in Mount Vernon and worked Crystal City for a couple of years and this is roughly 10-15 miles. It took me anywhere from 45 minutes to two hours to commute. Same deal with the Navy Yard. It should be remembered when the Redskins wanted to build their new stadium on Potomac Yards the blue stockings nixed the deal because of the traffic problem. Hint, the Redskins play eight home games a year, all on Sunday afternoon, and maybe a Monday night game that starts at 9:00PM. The blue stockings have sandwiched as many apartment buildings in the area as they can. My wife tells me the plan is to level the shopping strip on Potomac Yards to build Amazon’s new headquarters.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  163. Married parents are heavily IT households and the 3+ kid ones at that.

  164. Svigor says:

    Isn’t the typical Amazon employee a warehouse drone who only needs to be smart enough to run a forklift and the like? Can this sort of person afford to live in the market described?

    We’re talking about headquarters, not factories.

    Okay but how many smart types does Amazon really need? Go ogle, it ain’t.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  165. @Corvinus

    Unless we have Bezos on tape or have documents saying that his two selections for Amazon HQ’s is about facilitating unaffordable family formation, Spotted Toad and our intrepid host are speculating in a wild manner.

    Will you require him twirling the point of his black handlebar mustache while being heard to laugh “Bwaa-haa-haa-haa” as well on the video?

  166. @donut

    There is a F line subway stop on Roosevelt Island.

  167. @Anonymous

    For single, professional, white males DC is NOT a happy hunting ground. The big female-to-male ratio is the result of this disparity among Negroes (see here https://suburbanstats.org/population/how-many-people-live-in-washington-dc for a breakdown of sex by race.) A large proportion of the professional white females in DC are already married.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  168. @hhsiii

    The South Ferry slip was down during the 1977 blackout, and people couldn’t get home to Staten Island. So was the Governors Island slip, but the Coast Guard has plenty of boats, and there was only a short delay in getting back to the unit.

  169. It is an interesting theory, possibly correct.

    A man I respect (note: is NOT a billionaire) said he had developed a preference for hiring men with families for this reason: he knew they would show up for work every day for the simple reason that they must. Little Billy and Sally depended on it. Granted, his background included more industrial, rather than information worker hiring decisions. And this was 20 years ago.

    I tend to think the HQ decision was much more basic: to be as close as possible to the levers of money and power.

    Our future is going to be so awesome.

  170. @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    Will you require him twirling the point of his black handlebar mustache while being heard to laugh “Bwaa-haa-haa-haa” as well on the video?

    We don’t need that kind of petulant snark. Corvinus, for all his adversarial commenting, is right once in a while and this is one of those times.

  171. Anonymous[595] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    According to those #s there are still more white females than males in DC, and if you add in the Asian females that is pretty good hunting for white collar white males relative to other big cities. Compare it to something like San Jose aka Man Jose, or Seattle, or even NYC which is full of finance d-bags.

    • Replies: @L Woods
  172. Forbes says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Ithaca is too small compared to the upstate cities (Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse) that operate regional medical centers/teaching hospitals with medical schools.

  173. L Woods says:
    @Desiderius

    Right. Like bank robbery.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  174. Anon[110] • Disclaimer says:
    @Spangel

    New York City still has a lot of ghettos and seedy areas. What New York wants to be is a classier version of Silicon Valley. They want to eminent domain black and Hispanics right out of the city and replace them by less-crime ridden taxpayers who can afford to pay the pensions of the city workers. They also want to create a massive housing boom that will give current homeowners a big increase in the value of their houses, so when they sell their houses, they can retire wealthy to Florida or North Carolina.

  175. L Woods says:
    @Anonymous

    Come live here and tell me how wonderful it is. It has its reputation for a reason

  176. Forbes says:
    @Clifford Brown

    Ugliness–a feature not a bug…

  177. @George

    This time last year when they proposed HQ2 the stock was at $1100/share. Now it’s at $1600. I doubt it had any effect on the decision.

  178. Anon[110] • Disclaimer says:
    @Desiderius

    Finance pays well, but the turnover is ferocious. Unless you consistently make money, you tend to get quickly replaced by your employer.

  179. Forbes says:
    @AnotherDad

    Most of the male policy wonks in DC are fairly feminized with the PC/SJW fever. And from the looks of most IT computer nerds, so are they. Computer and math geeks never struck me as manly. So they’ll all fit in.

    • Replies: @Iberiano
  180. Precious says:
    @Samuel Skinner

    That was only for a brief period- 11th century to 16th. Prior to that concubines were common for priests and afterwards the Protestants returned to married priests.

    False on the claim of concubines. You are accurate that not all priests were celibate in the 10th and earlier centuries, but they were mostly wives rather than concubines. But even then some priests were celibate, following the tradition established in the Biblical text by Jesus Christ and the youngest apostle John.

    You are also inaccurate about “Protestants returned to married priests” unless you are talking about Lutherans or another specific sect. Most Protestants, including Calvinists, did away with priests altogether. A pastor isn’t a priest, and this isn’t just a name change. Priests are only necessary for five of the seven sacraments in Catholic/Orthodox Christianity, and by removing those five the priesthood goes with it.

    Note the Orthodox never went for the insanity of celibate priesthood.

    False. If you knew about the Orthodox Church you would know they do have celibate priests. They also have married priests. If you join the priesthood unmarried you stay celibate, or at least you are expected to stay celibate.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  181. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Bezos went to Princeton and spent his early career in NYC working in tech and finance before founding Amazon. His personal experience was probably a factor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_bezos#Early_career

    After Bezos graduated from Princeton in 1987, he was offered jobs at Intel, Bell Labs, and Andersen Consulting, among others.[24] He first worked at Fitel, a financial telecommunications start-up, where he was tasked with building a network for international trade.[25] Bezos was promoted to head of development and director of customer service thereafter.[26] He transitioned into the banking industry when he became a product manager at Bankers Trust; he worked there from 1988 to 1990.[26] He then joined D. E. Shaw & Co, a newly founded hedge fund, in 1990 and worked there until 1994. Bezos became D. E. Shaw’s fourth senior vice-president at the age of 30.[26][24]

  182. @Corn

    “A little over a year and a half ago construction equipment manufacturer Caterpillar moved their HQ to Chicago suburb Deerfield…”

    “It’s widely suspected that the move occurred because the CEO was from Chicago and he thought Peoria was just a cowtown.”

    At least Peoria is just a cowtown.

    Chicago is a cowtown and a sh*thole. Plus, it’s probably more corrupt than any other English speaking city in North America (including NYC, D.C. & New Orleans).

    State of Illinois is a thoroughly corrupt cesspool too.

    Should have moved HQ to Texas or Tennessee when they were floating the idea five years ago.

  183. Forbes says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Although Bezos has enough skin in the game and a long enough track record of maximizing his wealth that he’d be the last CEO I’d expect to decide this way.

    That was what Alan Greenspan testified to regarding the demise of Bear Stearns. Ace Greenberg and Jimmy Cayne both owned more than $1 billion worth of stock, which seemed sufficient skin in the game, as far as Greenspan could determine as an incentive toward prudence and against risky behavior.

    The fact that Bear Stearns stock price declined 90% was a huge hit. Walking away with $100 million? Not so painful.

  184. Anon[110] • Disclaimer says:

    Amazon has no qualms about moving to places with expensive and highly squeezed housing markets. Bezos doesn’t want employees with families. He wants them young so he doesn’t have to pay them much, and he wants them working 18-hours days as company slaves. People with social obligations to others outside their jobs make bad slaves.

    Bezos is all about making a buck, period. If you’re interested in looking after yourself, don’t work for Amazon.

    • Replies: @stillCARealist
  185. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    Depends on what you mean by difference. In certain respects, such as the business motivation, there was no difference. Factories were moved to lower labor costs. Factories in the US were relocated from unionized areas to Southern states with “right to work” laws.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  186. Forbes says:
    @The Alarmist

    Jeez, I assume this is tongue-in-check snark. It’s the only way to read it to find any sense in it.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  187. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Svigor

    Amazon cares more about data. Selling is secondary and a means to an end. Bezos has said that he sold books initially because he wanted data on upper middle class consumers. Selling everything else gives you data on the rest of consumers.

  188. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:

    Bezos has said that he expects trillions of people living in the solar system, and that he’s using his fortune to get there, which is kind of the ultimate in affordable family formation:

    “Jeff Bezos predicts we’ll have 1 trillion humans in the solar system, and Blue Origin wants to help get us there

    Blue Origin’s aim is to lower the cost of access to space, Jeff Bezos said during a surprise appearance at Wired’s 25th anniversary conference.
    Bezos said he will spend a “little more” than $1 billion annually to support Blue Origin.”

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/15/blue-origins-jeff-bezos-predicts-1-trillion-humans-in-the-solar-system-wired-summit.html

    • Agree: Desiderius
  189. @Precious

    did away with priests altogether

    The doctrine is properly the Priesthood of All Believers. All, not none.

    At minimum, Priesthood is one of the Offices of Christ’s earthly ministry. 1 > 0.

    • Replies: @Intelligent Dasein
  190. @Anonymous

    My twins are 16 months and doing beautifully. Working on convincing the wife to go for a daughter or two.

  191. @L Woods

    Well, that’s the way things look presently, but it doesn’t take full blown nihilism to convince oneself otherwise, especially if one’s livelihood depends on it.

  192. Corvinus says:
    @Alec Leamas (hard at work)

    “Will you require him twirling the point of his black handlebar mustache while being heard to laugh “Bwaa-haa-haa-haa” as well on the video?”

    I figure since you are queen of cheesy special effects (think Sid and Marty Kroft), you would take care of this matter pronto. Although, in retrospect, I would be besmirching their fine work if I put you in that category.

  193. Redman says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Columbia’s Engineering program has leaped to the head of the pack. Mostly because in the last 20-25 years NYC has had a remarkable renaissance. Kids want to be here.

    In the late 1990s, when the internet was first getting its feet, 23rd street was called Silicon Alley because so many content provider startups were there. Most failed or were bought up by larger companies. But NY has always been heavily connected to the internet and the internet economy.

  194. @Anonymous

    … but they didn’t really do anything to raise the children besides bringing home the bacon.

    Yeah, right, so I wonder how any boy back then learned to work with tools, hunt, fish, drive, and just be a man in general. It wasn’t from the Moms. What kind of complete crap is that?

    A 2nd thing is that men without children can hang out with single friends at night, go out anywhere for that matter, have more time-consuming hobbies, etc, none of which they can do when the time is spent with the children. There is definitely a sacrifice involved, but you won’t know how much it’s worth it, per AnotherDad, until you do it.

    Oh, one more thing. Nowaday, even moreso, a man with no kids has an easier time handling the wife. The STATE can still come down hard on him per her bidding, but there’s just not as much to lose.

  195. @Anonymous

    Yes the US is overpopulated, but almost entirely due to unabated Third World immigration.

  196. This is kind of true, but it’s also kind of not. The sorts of brainy types that are attracted to these environments are driven to use technology to generate the family sizes they want, which are 2-4 children. By which I mean a lot more fertility drug use without doing full-on IVF or IUI. So Asian women are suddenly putting up really high twin numbers (this is practically a klaxon of Clomid usage) even as the overall births continue to drop for them as a group. Among white non-Hispanic college-educated women who are somewhere around 75% of the births for that group, the PhD subset that is currently outbaby-having the Amish and white high school dropouts in total births has a 10% twin birth rate.

    Amazon and other megafirms are essentially incentivizing motherhood in the kind of woman who think this approach is a great way to have 3, maybe even 4 kids and essentially guarantee a “perfect 2″. So we’re getting intelligent people to reproduce, but of a very particular sort that thinks the current fragile, hopelessly complicated anarcho-tyrannyist environment is a great system under which to have at least two children as efficiently as possible. And further, the sort who can not only survive the work environments, but get married in them.

    And they’re homeschooling more often, too, often while making sure to use some public school resources to assist.

  197. @Anon

    wow, I have a friend who works for Amazon, has three kids, and is always having to work at night. She makes good $ I guess, but scrambling for child care is driving her crazier. Of course, leaving the husband wasn’t so smart. But lots of people aren’t so smart.

  198. @anon

    My thoughts exactly. I love that the Lefty state of NY is taking it in the shorts from scumbag Bezos.

  199. Anonymous[673] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    I think the marriage gap explains a lot as well. What percentage of engineers at, say, Shockley Semiconductor vs. Amazon were married, and what were the median family sizes? My impression from reading the history of the era is that most of the first-wave tech entrepreneurs got married in their early-mid 20s and immediately started having children, which is not at all the pattern today. The myriad downsides of DC and NYC (and SF) are mitigated to a large degree when you’re a wealthy DINK couple, as a large number of modern tech people are.

    Let’s not forget too that, contra the stereotypes, NYC is actually quite safe now and DC is booming like arguably no other city; both are in many respects in the midst of a Golden Age. The big downsides are cost (as per above, not a big concern for the typical Amazon employee) and the suffocating neoliberal political correctness, which is not really suffocating to most Amazon people (Amazons?) and if anything is a comfort vs. the uncouth beliefs of those Deplorables out in Flyover Land.

  200. @Lowe

    Boise *is* cool, and I’m not the only one who pointed out how stupid his Asian/Indian thing was. Whether it’s “confusing” here and now is irrelevant. What matters is that the inability or refusal of some to speak properly causes confusion (or worse) down the line.

    Find something better to do.

    • Replies: @Lowe
  201. anon[179] • Disclaimer says:

    Most people who work for big corporations are conservative and family oriented, they are people who look for stability. SV has a totally different culture than the techies in the Seattle area, who tend to be much more subdued. SV has been taken over by Jews and have gone off the deep end. Neither Bezos nor Gates are Jewish. It’s why after Google turned down a defense contract, Amazon and Microsoft immediately went after it, with no protests from their employees.

  202. anon[179] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Actually lots of good schools to provide tech talents for the NYC office, not just in NYC itself with Columbia, Cornell, NYU and the CUNY schools, but also Rutgers in Newark and New Brunswick, Princeton, Stevens IT, UConn, Yale, SUNYs and further up north – all the schools in the NE are now much more accessible, UMass, Brown, Harvard, MIT, Dartmouth, BU, BC, Northeastern, and out to PA — Penn State, Lehigh, UPenn.

    All the East Coasters who didn’t want to decamp to Seattle now have an option.

    I’m guessing a lot of people in the South and Southeast will be much less reluctant to go to the VA branch than move to Seattle.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  203. Twinkie says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    That was back in 1971 after Boeing employment went from over 120,000 or so down to below 40,000. As someone wrote above about company towns, this was an example of a big bust.

    At one point in the mid 1970′s, Seattle’ unemployment rate was close to 20%. That’s nearly catastrophic for a first world country. No wonder homes with spectacular views were bargain basement-priced.

    By late 1980′s the tech sector started to grow and then later boom, thanks in large part to Microsoft in Redmond, which was grossing over a billion dollars.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  204. @Desiderius

    This isn’t how the term is used theologically or ecclesiologically. The Protestants did away with the sacramental priesthood and replaced it by an ersatz, existential idea, which is logically equivalent to negating it altogether. The Catholic priest is character indelebilis; his office is substantial not existential.

    • Agree: Bill
  205. Lowe says:
    @ben tillman

    Nobody was confused by it. You and Achmed are just too autistic to accept a common turn of phrase, apparently.

  206. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Lowe

    Boise State plays on a blue field and has a trained Labrador retrieve its kicking tees. That’s pretty cool.

    • Agree: ben tillman
  207. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @anon

    Dartmouth is about as convenient to New York City as Stockton is to Los Angeles.

  208. Rosie says:
    @Anonymous

    Depends on what you mean by difference. In certain respects, such as the business motivation, there was no difference.

    True, but irrelevant.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  209. Moses says:
    @Ed

    We’re about to have our 3rd child. When I mentioned to my parents and sister that we were considering a 4th the unified into the Discouragement Union.

    “Oh, that’s a lot of work!”
    “Aren’t you a little old to be having a 4th?”
    “It’s too expensive!”
    “You should stop at 3. That’s enough.”

    I was like WTF? All these “downsides” are ours, not theirs. They get all the bennies and none of the costs if we have more children. We can afford it.

    Then it occurred to me — the elite propaganda machine (h0llywood, media, etc) has been pushing smaller families (or no families) and pathologizing larger ones for 50 years.

  210. @Forbes

    It was, but I knew many of that mind when I lived in NYC.

  211. @Moses

    I got the same grief from my wife and inlaws when I decided we wanted a pool. There’s a lot to be said for living far away from family.

  212. Moses says:
    @AnotherDad

    The weird thing is that there are huge numbers of people now–brainwashed by Hollyweird’s fags–who actually think that way.

    Yes. I used to work in the tech industry in the Bay Area. I used to believe this totally. So did most of my friends.

    I finally married and had children a bit late. I love it.

    Is it challenging? Yes. Time-consuming? Yes. Sometimes frustrating? Yes.

    But I’ve found that the rewards of having kids are 1000x the cost of having kids.

    There really is a giant brainwashing against family formation in general and against more than 1-2 kids.

    Anyone speculate on why that is?

  213. @Anonymous

    Luxury homes is over the top, and sexual harassment/workplace fraternization policies have really cut back on profs dating their students, so you’re correct on those two counts. Going home at six o’clock is also inaccurate, but because it’s way too late. Finding a professor on campus after say one or two in the afternoon is damn near impossible. (Unless they drew a short in their department and got stuck teaching a class at those times.)

  214. @Twinkie

    Seattle seems to be home to peculiarly successful corporations: Microsoft, Amazon, Starbucks, Nordstrom, and Costco.

    On the other hand, Washington Mutual …

  215. Trevor H. says:
    @Moses

    Does this mean that parents are going to start foregoing their child tax credits? This I’ve gotta see.

  216. Trevor H. says:
    @Redneck farmer

    Put another way, if all the military personnel were in uniform, everyone else would freak out, or plotz, or whatever they’re doing these days

  217. Trevor H. says:
    @Moses

    I think raising children in today’s world is a worthy and laudable pursuit, in theory anyway. If, on the other hand, they are destined for white slavery it’s just a tad more arguable.

  218. @Stick

    It should be remembered when the Redskins wanted to build their new stadium on Potomac Yards the blue stockings nixed the deal because of the traffic problem.

    Yes for 8 Sundays (We all know the Skins don’t win playoff games) of traffic, they instead got two miles of Big Box Retail. I put phones in all those big stores, I always scheduled daytime tasks for night time because of the traffic. The same blue stockings nixed a tall-enough Woodrow Wilson Bridge across the Potomac that it didn’t need to be a draw bridge. They didn’t want to see or hear the bridge from their Old Town row homes along the Potomac North of the crossing. We’re talking about fewer than 100 old hags altered a bridge that carries millions of people every day having to open to allow the containers in with WashPost’s newsprint. That was twenty or twenty five years back, I guess. The leases on that Potomac Yards land ought to be due by now. But didn’t they have old warehousing a a few blocks off Jeff Davis Rt 1 slated for Amazon’s offices? Birdies told me they want to be as close in as possible to DEA, US Marshals and the phalanx of security offered by close proximity to the Pentagon and Big Time Federal Law?

    All those people are going to need retail. Pentagon City-Potomac Yard, consumerism canyon, heh..

  219. @Lowe

    Oriental IS the term, and we’re done …uhoh! Gotta watch Wopner. 4:59 in the Orient. Judge Wopner’s on. Gotta watch Wopner…

  220. bomag says:
    @TheJester

    Spot on comment.

    I suspect that there is a good chance that the new Amazon HQ in Crystal City next to the Pentagon and across the river from the Imperial Forum will catch the infection.

    Thing is, the tentacles of the Swamp extend across the country to every federal office and federal influenced entity. Noted elsewhere that education has been federalized; visit your local school and you will find the vacant stare and mumbling found in DC. Big business is under pressure everywhere to accept the poz.

  221. Anon[319] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    In the past, women were denied educational and career opportunities

    True it was “in the past,” but pushing 100 years in the past.

  222. @Moses

    Agenda 2030 … can’t achieve a “sustainable world” if there are too many people.

    https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/post2015/transformingourworld

  223. Anon[319] • Disclaimer says:

    Regarding DC and females, jobs, etc. – not long ago I met a delightful, tall slim 75 y/o woman in KC, MO swimming her daily laps at her downtown condo pool. She told me she grew up in KC, relocated to DC at 20 y/o on her own in 1960, got a “Gal Friday” job at HHS and met her doctor husband at HHS. Twenty years later she and her husband returned to KC and quickly got jobs at UMKC Medical Center. They both worked there for 15 years, then retired and took early federal and UMKC pensions in their mid-50s. The husband died at 60, and the healthy widow has been collecting four pensions for going on 20 years.

  224. Anon[319] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jim Don Bob

    Beltway Bandits is the pejorative name given to many of the companies (CACI, LockheedMartin, NorthrupGrumman, etc) in the DC area who do nothing but supply bodies to government contracts. The true size of federal employment is masked by the hundreds of thousands of people who staff government contracts such as “provide IT support to GSA”.

    Large government defense contractor, Raytheon, put bread on the table for four generations of my family. My 90-y/o grandmother is still collecting my deceased grandfather’s pension and he’s been dead since 1980.

  225. Iberiano says:
    @Forbes

    For whatever it’s worth, there’s a real trend of IT/Computer geeks ( I guess with some overlap in math) being very interested and very good at BJJ. Large crossover with Chess as well. Not necessarily combat/MMA style BJJ, but definitely sport BJJ, which is a marker of Alpha.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
  226. Wired magazine thinks Amazon’s new HQ search backfired because it exposed too much of how big companies reap tax breaks from local governments.

    https://www.wired.com/story/amazon-hq2-search-backfired/

  227. @Moses

    Nah, the elite has been showing families of 3 a lot more often (it was something sjws complained about with one of the avengers movies, showing the arrow-shooting guy’s wife pregnant with #3, and trailers for Hollywood movies show 3 kids in the family pretty regularly). Three is acceptable, and in fact among married parents who already have kids, having a third is increasing. Having a fourth is in some areas, but not nearly to the same extent.

    There are anti-family, anti-child, anti-mother social norms, but many of them come from the right wing, not the left. Such as antipathy towards extended family, or hiring domestic help, or using delivery services (i.e., living someone non-rural), and expecting parents to sign on to taking kids to everything at all times. That kind of thing inhibits fertility and delays family formation, too, and it’s mostly not very lefty.

  228. @Moses

    To be realistic, many people expecting their third are pretty cavalier about how easy it will be. And yet if it was not that hard, there’d be a lot more fourth and fifth and sixth kids. The third child or pregnancy (there’s been a huge increase in twins) tends to be a hard stopping point, a wall many parents just slam headfirst into. And so 3-4 remains the acceptable upper limit, and likely will for the foreseeable future.

  229. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosie

    I don’t see how it’s irrelevant. It was very relevant to unionized labor, which was largely destroyed as a result, and to business practices. And it still takes place. Boeing’s 787 Dreamliner production was moved out of Washington state and its unionized labor and into some place in the South without unions.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  230. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Eventually, the South will become pro-union, but they won’t call them unions. Thay’ll call it the Labor Confederacy.

    Terminology matters.

  231. @Lowe

    Words matter, and someone needs to point it out.

  232. gunner29 says:
    @LittleNano

    Not everybody thinks Jackson Hole is the only desirable spot in the state. I spent a couple of days in Cody, the museum takes about 6 hours if you really want to read the display cards and all. It was a nice place that somebody middle class could afford. Unlike JH.

    One of the locals told me in JH that almost all the worker bees in JH live over the hill in Idaho, nothing available to live in nearer JH. A descendant of J0hn Muir was the Wyoming state geologist, he and his wife gifted 15 acres near JH so the city could build affordable housing on it.

    It’s probably a lot easier for men to live out in the country, slower pace of life, less hassles in general. Go out and do guy stuff.

    Womyn need constant visual and sensory stimulation or they get crankier than their usual level of crankiness, so they don’t do as well out there.

    Bezoes doesn’t want families, he’s got to pay them a lot more than some single guy sharing an appt…..

  233. gunner29 says:
    @RadicalCenter

    There is no need to require highly intelligent people to be barren and never has been. We should be doing the opposite. It’s quite possible to be a productive scholar, teacher, minister, inventor, whatever, and have a wife and children.

    Remember; it’s the womyn’s decision as to whether to breed or not. What hubby wants is hardly considered. Used to be a guy had to get her permission to get a vasectomy, while she could get herself spayed and not tell anybody. I wonder if the states have changed that?

    The womyn just don’t want to be tied down with a kid, or spend all that money on the kid instead of overseas vacations, really nice wardrobe, or whatever else gets her attention.

  234. Twinkie says:
    @Jim Don Bob

    I live inside the Beltway

    Annandale? :)

  235. Twinkie says:
    @Iberiano

    For whatever it’s worth, there’s a real trend of IT/Computer geeks ( I guess with some overlap in math) being very interested and very good at BJJ. Large crossover with Chess as well. Not necessarily combat/MMA style BJJ, but definitely sport BJJ, which is a marker of Alpha.

    I wouldn’t say that flopping for leg locks is a marker for Alpha-ness.

    I’m glad that there are more geeks in Jujitsu, but most of those guys are terrified to stand up and get thrown, in my experience. Then again, that could be just me. I was a competitive Judoka, and am a longtime Judo and BJJ black belt. I have a bit of contempt for guard flops (in BJJ) and turtling (in sport Judo).

  236. Twinkie says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Oriental people especially (not sure about dot-Indians) really want to live in “the” big city

    Um, no. Lots of East Asians flock to suburbs, especially those with good schools. Living in cities is for blacks and hipster whites (and empty nesters, etc.).

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