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A few years ago, I suggested that psychiatrist / blogger Scott Alexander of SlateStarCodex.com consider becoming the Bill James of brain pills.

Now Scott has a long, long article on Adderall, the prescription semi-speed. (The brand name “Adderall” apparently means “ADD for all”):

ADDERALL RISKS: MUCH MORE THAN YOU WANTED TO KNOW
POSTED ON DECEMBER 28, 2017 BY SCOTT ALEXANDER

I didn’t realize how much of a psychiatrist’s time was spent gatekeeping Adderall.

The human brain wasn’t built for accounting or software engineering. A few lucky people can do these things ten hours a day, every day, with a smile. The rest of us start fidgeting and checking our cell phone somewhere around the thirty minute mark. I work near the financial district of a big city, so every day a new Senior Regional Manipulator Of Tiny Numbers comes in and tells me that his brain must be broken because he can’t sit still and manipulate tiny numbers as much as he wants. How come this is so hard for him, when all of his colleagues can work so diligently?

(It’s because his colleagues are all on Adderall already – but telling him that will just make things worse)

He goes on to give me his story about how he’s at risk of getting fired from his Senior Regional Manipulator Of Tiny Numbers position, and at this rate he’s never going to get the promotion to Vice President Of Staring At Giant Spreadsheets, so do I think I can give him some Adderall to help him through?

Psychiatric guidelines are very clear on this point: only give Adderall to people who “genuinely” “have” “ADHD”.

But “ability to concentrate” is a normally distributed trait, like IQ. We draw a line at some point on the far left of the bell curve and tell the people on the far side that they’ve “got” “the disease” of “ADHD”. This isn’t just me saying this. It’s the neurostructural literature, the the genetics literature, a bunch of other studies, and the the Consensus Conference On ADHD. This doesn’t mean ADHD is “just laziness” or “isn’t biological” – of course it’s biological! Height is biological! But that doesn’t mean the world is divided into two natural categories of “healthy people” and “people who have Height Deficiency Syndrome“. Attention is the same way. Some people really do have poor concentration, they suffer a lot from it, and it’s not their fault. They just don’t form a discrete population.

Meanwhile, Adderall works for people whether they “have” “ADHD” or not. It may work better for people with ADHD – a lot of them report an almost “magical” effect – but it works at least a little for most people. There is a vast literature trying to disprove this. Its main strategy is to show Adderall doesn’t enhance cognition in healthy people. Fine. But mostly it doesn’t enhance cognition in people with ADHD either. People aren’t using Adderall to get smart, they’re using it to focus.

What are the cultural effects of speed-type drugs? We have a vast literature on the artistic and social impact in the 1960s of a fairly rare drug, LSD, and a large literature on the effects of marijuana on music, comedy, and so forth.

But people have been taking a lot of variants of speed since, roughly, WWII when militaries handed them out to guys who needed to stay awake to not die. But what kind of changes are there due to speed? Are certain kinds of music or movies or books more likely to have been made and appreciated by somebody on speed?

 
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  1. Are certain kinds of music or movies …

    Cookie cutter comic book super hero movies perhaps? Maybe the same regime change war over and over forever?

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  2. Motorhead. You get Motorhead on speed.

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    • Replies: @JMcG
    I love Motörhead.
    , @Autochthon
    If you'd have taken some speed to concentrate before writing, you'd have remembered it is "Motörhead."

    Concentration is about attention to details, damn it!
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    Chemical Brothers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5NX1FC-7-w
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  3. I don’t get the cultural disdain for performance enhancing drugs.

    If Adderall works for normal people, and keeps on working, and has minimal side effects, why isn’t it a wonder drug?

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    • Replies: @candid_observer
    Isn't Adderall like hypomania in a pill?
    , @ThreeCranes
    A while ago I made a comment about pre 2008 collapse Wall Street Wizards and WW2 Hitler and myrmidons who, doped up on cocaine and speed respectively, staked out positions which they were incapable of defending when called back to their normal state of mind by an unforgiving Reality.

    Doped behavior has no future.

    , @JW Bell
    Adderall has little long term effect similar to coffee. The military switched to Modafinil due the greater benefits of it.
    , @Karl
    3 candid_observer > I don’t get the cultural disdain for performance enhancing drugs


    i'll match you, and raise you one: I don't get the cultural disdain for performance enhancing drugs when used by athletes.
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  4. There are a few of the Unz commenters that I suspect of writing under the influence (WUI).

    Though some of them may suspect me of the same.

    New tagline for Unz.com:

    Safer than Speed; More Effective than Adderall!

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    • Replies: @Chrisnonymous
    I'm frequently UIo'bourbon, but I save my really incoherent drunk/falling asleep comments for Reddit (y'all're welcome). But I assume you're referring to Intelligent Dasein, but I think he just has a mood disorder.

    I've written Amazon reviews UIo'Adderall before. It's easier to finish, but not better.
    , @TheJester
    With the unemployed on heroin, the petite bourgeois on pot, the financial community on Adderal, and the managerial class on cocaine, things could not possibly be going any better for our society. Their "helpers" allow them to get through the day in our demanding, high-tech civilization.

    With the advent of robotics, I'm especially looking forward to the implementation of minimum incomes so that everyone can retreat to their garages and form more high-tech startups that will continue to revolutionize human society. That's the promise, right?

    The more pessimistic scenario is that most people will sit on their front porches and shoot heroin, smoke pot, pop Adderal, and snort cocaine. I tend to be more of a realist than a pessimist, but I'm coming to believe the latter is the more likely outcome.
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  5. @candid_observer
    I don't get the cultural disdain for performance enhancing drugs.

    If Adderall works for normal people, and keeps on working, and has minimal side effects, why isn't it a wonder drug?

    Isn’t Adderall like hypomania in a pill?

    Read More
    • Replies: @JW Bell
    Yes, pretty similar to coffee actually.
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  6. “……Are certain kinds of music or movies or books more likely to have been made and appreciated by somebody on speed?”

    Why yes…yes there are…

    One particular episode saw Lemmy challenging another speed freak to a bed jumping contest that lasted 3 days….allegedly.

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  7. Amphetamine use among players has been common for 60 years. They were not banned until 2007. Estimates of how many players used them have been as high as 85 percent. “Greenies” (Dexedrine) were a club house staple for decades beginning just after World War II, when ball players drafted into the military returned to the diamond having been exposed to the stimulant pills, which the armed forces dispensed by the millions.

    Amphetamines “have been around the game forever,” the Hall of Famer Mike Schmidt wrote in his book, “Clearing the Bases,”… “In my day, they were widely available in major-league clubhouses.”

    That Major League Baseball chooses to act against amphetamines in 2006 is farcical. You almost have to cover your face when you snicker at the thought….Schmidt stated that the elimination of amphetamines could have “possibly far greater implications for the game than the crackdown against steroids.”….. “amphetamine use in baseball is both far more common and has been going on a lot longer than steroid abuse.”

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    • Agree: ScarletNumber
    • Replies: @william munny
    Even more ridiculous is how they allow players to work around these problems when their personal doctor attests that they have ADD or a testosterone deficiency, so need prescription drugs to remedy it. A-Rod was allowed to do so, but still abused it. MLB keeps the list secret because of HIPAA and all. Sure. Gymnast Simone Biles "has" ADD. How many other American athletes take drugs while claiming that the Russians and everyone else are cheats? A growing number of cops and corrections officers I know get treated for their supposed lack of testosterone by cop-friendly doctors too.
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  8. Some famous speed songs: 6 Days on the Road by Dave Dudley, Highway Star by Deep Purple, and Motorhead, by Hawkwind, then Motorhead.

    I’d say meth has taken on quite a cultural role in Deplorableland, going back at least to the 40′s. It certainly reinforced road/biker culture, and the “jacked” attitude in sports. If you’re run with rough working class people, you know what I’m talking about.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "Some famous speed songs:..."

    Pretty hard to top 'Blue Collar Tweekers':

    I've seen them out at soco
    They're pounding sixteen penny nails
    The truckers on the interstate
    Have been known to ride the rails
    The sweat is beating on the brow
    Can't keep these fellas down
    'Cause those damned blue-collared tweekers
    Are runnin' this here town

    I knew a man who hung drywall
    He hung it mighty quick
    A trip or two to the blue room
    Would help him do the trick
    His foreman would pat him on the back
    Whenever he would come around
    'Cause these dammed blue-collar tweekers
    Are beloved in this here town

    Now the union boys are there
    To protect us from all the corporate type
    While curious george's drug patrol
    Is out here hunting snipe
    Now they try to tell me different
    But you know i ain't no clown
    'Cause those damned blue-collar tweekers
    Are the backbone of this town

    Now the flame that burns twice as bright
    Burns only half as long
    My eyes are growing weary
    As i finalize this song
    So sit back and have a cup o' joe
    And watch the wheels go round
    'Cause those damned blue-collar tweekers
    Have always run this town

    Primus
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  9. There is nothing “semi” about it. It contains:

    amphetamine aspartate monohydrate 25% – stimulant
    (12.5% levo; 12.5% dextro)

    amphetamine sulfate 25% – stimulant
    (12.5% levo; 12.5% dextro)

    dextroamphetamine saccharate 25% – stimulant
    (0% levo; 25% dextro)

    dextroamphetamine sulfate 25% – stimulant
    (0% levo; 25% dextro)

    Personally I prefer straight dextroamphetamine sulfate (Dexedrine) to either Adderall or Desoxyn (methamphetamine hydrochloride)

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  10. Speed makes everything more interesting and sexier which is why children shouldnt be given it. It is still speed if you get it from a doctor. I would argue most porn and erotica is made by people on coke or speed.

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  11. The chief cultural effect of Adderall and similar drugs is to normalize the “pill for every ill” mentality that is so prevalent. A significant number of children who are prescribed Adderall end up as adult drug addicts and substance abusers, but of course it is hard to say whether the reason for this has something to do with the Adderall or the brain damage that they presumably had in the first place that made them unable to concentrate in school and led to them being put on Adderall.

    Probably the largest group of students prescribed Adderall are young black boys who were not behavig themselves in school. Without Adderall many of them might have grown up to be dysfunctional adults, but thanks to Adderall many have become valued citizens, NFL players, top golfers, pitchmen for Hertz car rentals running through airports, Presidents of the US, beloved comedians on family sitcoms, and so on.

    While tuberculosis seems to have given many writers great creative energy, for example Voltaire, the Bronte sisters, George Orwell, Camus, Chekhov, Thoreau, Thomas Wolfe, Chopin, and Gaugin, and numerous others, I cannot think of comparable names whose output has been affected by Adderall. Donald Trump, perhaps?

    http://gawker.com/rumor-doctor-prescribes-donald-trump-cheap-speed-1782901680

    Viagra, on the other hand, seems to have had a considerable influence on many people in the creative arts, particularly, but not exclusively, in the field of pornographic film, and also in politics, where this medication has given a whole new meaning to the word intern.

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  12. Read More
    • LOL: Daniel H
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  13. “What are the cultural effects of speed-type drugs”

    You expect THERAPEUTIC doses of Adderall to have consciousness-altering effects???

    Amphataminea are used by military aviators on long missions, truckers, cabbies etc., right? Why would it have any more of a cultural effect than, say, coffee?

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    • Replies: @Ivy
    Truckers used LA Turnarounds aka speed to complete those round trips up and down California. Then some accidents and other problems helped bring in more regulation with GPS tracking to show where that truck really was when, tighter log books (I knew guys who used to use multiple books for presentation depending on who was asking) and mandated breaks after X hours to keep hallucinating guys from plowing into an Unz reader's Mercedes, minivan or motorcycle. That led to those semis that you see parked on freeway shoulders and on-ramps giving some low-quality rest time.
    , @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    Coffee's cultural effect is vast.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    You'll be surprised. Birth control for women, for example, has permanent effects on the brain. One can only wonder if it has caused other cultural effects once it came into widespread use.

    The blood-brain barrier is designed to generally condition our brains from being influenced by diet but with all of the newfound methods of getting around it, its no longer working all that well.
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  14. Are certain kinds of music or movies or books more likely to have been made and appreciated by somebody on speed?

    Motorhead springs to mind. Google also suggests mid 60′s Dylan.

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  15. But what kind of changes are there due to speed? Are certain kinds of music or movies or books more likely to have been made and appreciated by somebody on speed?

    Based on these examples, I would say that it just amplifies what’s already there:

    The poet W.H. Auden is probably the most famous example. He took a dose of Benzedrine (a brand name of amphetamine introduced in the United States in 1933) each morning the way many people take a daily multivitamin. At night, he used Seconal or another sedative to get to sleep. He continued this routine—“the chemical life,” he called it—for 20 years, until the efficacy of the pills finally wore off. Auden regarded amphetamines as one of the “labor-saving devices” in the “mental kitchen,” alongside alcohol, coffee, and tobacco—although he was well aware that “these mechanisms are very crude, liable to injure the cook, and constantly breaking down.”

    Graham Greene had a similarly pragmatic approach to amphetamines. In 1939, while laboring on what he was certain would be his greatest novel, The Power and the Glory, Greene decided to also write one of his “entertainments”—melodramatic thrillers that lacked artistry but that he knew would make money. He worked on both books simultaneously, devoting his mornings to the thriller The Confidential Agent and his afternoons to The Power and the Glory. To keep it up, he took Benzedrine tablets twice daily, one upon waking and the other at midday. As a result he was able to write 2,000 words in the mornings alone, as opposed to his usual 500. After only six weeks, The Confidential Agent was completed and on its way to being published. (The Power and the Glory took four more months.)

    Greene soon stopped taking the drug; not all writers had such self-control. In 1942 Ayn Rand took up Benzedrine to help her finish her novel, The Fountainhead.* She had spent years planning and composing the first third of the novel; over the next 12 months, thanks to the new pills, she averaged a chapter a week. But the drug quickly became a crutch. Rand would continue to use amphetamines for the next three decades, even as her overuse led to mood swings, irritability, emotional outbursts, and paranoia—traits Rand was susceptible to even without drugs.

    Jean-Paul Sartre was similarly dependent. In the 1950s, already exhausted from too much work on too little sleep—plus too much wine and cigarettes—the philosopher turned to Corydrane, a mix of amphetamine and aspirin then fashionable among Parisian students, intellectuals, and artists. The prescribed dose was one or two tablets in the morning and at noon. Sartre took 20 a day, beginning with his morning coffee, and slowly chewed one pill after another as he worked. For each tablet, he could produce a page or two of his second major philosophical work, The Critique of Dialectical Reason.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/features/2013/daily_rituals/auden_sartre_graham_greene_ayn_rand_they_loved_amphetamines.html

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    There was a famous movie mogul, I believe Selznick, who popped uppers like candy.
    , @newrouter
    For clear truthful thinking the druggie is #1 goto. lol
    , @Matthew Kelly
    OT, but this...

    In 1939, while laboring on what he was certain would be his greatest novel, The Power and the Glory, Greene decided to also write one of his “entertainments”—melodramatic thrillers that lacked artistry but that he knew would make money.
     
    ...strikes me as similar to the plot/devices of Kaufman's Adaptation film. Anyone know of any connection? (A cursory Google yielded nothing.)
    , @utu
    Mathematicians Paul Erdős and Alfred Tarski were amphetamine users.
    , @Pericles

    her overuse led to mood swings, irritability, emotional outbursts, and paranoia—traits Rand was susceptible to even without drugs.

     

    Well, that's rather anti-semitic.
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  16. For “Adderall” read “all psychiatric medication to include table sugar.” It’s very long and it’s from the Church of Scientology, but the best treatment of this is the documentary “Marketing of Madness,” free on YouTube. There are also the books of Dr Peter Breggin, who is not a Scientologist, and who gives information on how to get off these scienceless experiments (it’s a very bad idea to go cold turkey).

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Is table sugar considered to be a psychotropic?
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  17. @syonredux

    But what kind of changes are there due to speed? Are certain kinds of music or movies or books more likely to have been made and appreciated by somebody on speed?
     
    Based on these examples, I would say that it just amplifies what's already there:

    The poet W.H. Auden is probably the most famous example. He took a dose of Benzedrine (a brand name of amphetamine introduced in the United States in 1933) each morning the way many people take a daily multivitamin. At night, he used Seconal or another sedative to get to sleep. He continued this routine—“the chemical life,” he called it—for 20 years, until the efficacy of the pills finally wore off. Auden regarded amphetamines as one of the “labor-saving devices” in the “mental kitchen,” alongside alcohol, coffee, and tobacco—although he was well aware that “these mechanisms are very crude, liable to injure the cook, and constantly breaking down.”
     

    Graham Greene had a similarly pragmatic approach to amphetamines. In 1939, while laboring on what he was certain would be his greatest novel, The Power and the Glory, Greene decided to also write one of his “entertainments”—melodramatic thrillers that lacked artistry but that he knew would make money. He worked on both books simultaneously, devoting his mornings to the thriller The Confidential Agent and his afternoons to The Power and the Glory. To keep it up, he took Benzedrine tablets twice daily, one upon waking and the other at midday. As a result he was able to write 2,000 words in the mornings alone, as opposed to his usual 500. After only six weeks, The Confidential Agent was completed and on its way to being published. (The Power and the Glory took four more months.)
     

    Greene soon stopped taking the drug; not all writers had such self-control. In 1942 Ayn Rand took up Benzedrine to help her finish her novel, The Fountainhead.* She had spent years planning and composing the first third of the novel; over the next 12 months, thanks to the new pills, she averaged a chapter a week. But the drug quickly became a crutch. Rand would continue to use amphetamines for the next three decades, even as her overuse led to mood swings, irritability, emotional outbursts, and paranoia—traits Rand was susceptible to even without drugs.

     


    Jean-Paul Sartre was similarly dependent. In the 1950s, already exhausted from too much work on too little sleep—plus too much wine and cigarettes—the philosopher turned to Corydrane, a mix of amphetamine and aspirin then fashionable among Parisian students, intellectuals, and artists. The prescribed dose was one or two tablets in the morning and at noon. Sartre took 20 a day, beginning with his morning coffee, and slowly chewed one pill after another as he worked. For each tablet, he could produce a page or two of his second major philosophical work, The Critique of Dialectical Reason.

     

    http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/features/2013/daily_rituals/auden_sartre_graham_greene_ayn_rand_they_loved_amphetamines.html

    There was a famous movie mogul, I believe Selznick, who popped uppers like candy.

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    • Replies: @syonredux
    Orson Welles allegedly took a lot of benzedrine while filming Citizen Kane.
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  18. I graduated from a public university consistently ranked in the top 25 overall and top 3 among public universities last hear. That said, I don’t think the general population appreciates the ubiquity of adderall use in academia nowadays, especially at “prestigious” universities. To be frank, you’re at a disadvantage if you do NOT take adhd meds. During finals, my conservative estimate is that 75% of the student body takes advantage of them.

    They’re great for any STEM class, and incredibly useful for the long readings assigned in the humanities. Adderall, in my experience, isn’t great for writing papers (at least, you’ll want to take a second look with a sober brain. Run-on sentences, distracting and unnecessary tangents, and tiresome repetitiousness of the same point(s) are common, whether or not someone’s been diagnosed with ADHD.)

    Culturally, Kerouac and Philip K. Dick immediately spring to mind as writers whose most famous books were completed under the influence. The complexity and novel stylistic choices in “Infinite Jest” were infinitely more interesting with Adderall versus without it. I can’t say exactly which musical genres are the result of speed usage ( maybe experimental indie rock. The group Animal Collective springs to mind.) My appreciation of all music is greatly enhanced by Adderall.

    I’m probably in the minority here, but I think amphetamine (not METHamphetmines) should be available over-the-counter because they’re a fantastic tool if used responsibly. And maybe we can drop this whole charade of pretending ADHD is a real “disease”, rather than a symptom of present day way of life.

    Read More
    • Agree: Travis, rogue-one
    • Replies: @Curle
    Werent the Beatles hopped up on speed throughout the Hamburg period? Same with Johnny Cash?
    , @Anonymous

    Run-on sentences, distracting and unnecessary tangents, and tiresome repetitiousness of the same point(s) are common,
     
    Okay--I'm convinced. That other guy further upthread is right: several unz.com commenters are definitely on the stuff.
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  19. Meanwhile, Adderall works for people whether they “have” “ADHD” or not. It may work better for people with ADHD – a lot of them report an almost “magical” effect – but it works at least a little for most people. There is a vast literature trying to disprove this. Its main strategy is to show Adderall doesn’t enhance cognition in healthy people. Fine. But mostly it doesn’t enhance cognition in people with ADHD either. People aren’t using Adderall to get smart, they’re using it to focus.

    Is it even possible clearly to distinguish between “cognition” and “focus”? If enhanced “focus” translates to improved performance on cognitive tasks, how is that not an enhancement of “cognition”?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Schmoe
    That is surely a fair point. I guess it could be that even with improved focus, a person can't do what he can't do. With improved focus, he can do it faster. Consider the SAT. How many people could get a higher score if they had another 30 minutes? or an hour, or two hours, or three? But how many couldn't? Well, a lot really.
    , @Difference Maker
    Effectively, perhaps.

    But it is the old standby of smartness vs alertness. Consider that a "smart" person can be tired, or drunk.

    I like to use the example of animals; say, a cat, or a dog. Now, we can take a dog and put him on amphetamines, assuming dogs have much the same response as we do: give them all the energy in the world, but they will only ever be as smart as a dog
    , @Swizzle Stick
    New research claims that children on ADHD drugs had no better grades than their counterparts who didn't take the drugs. I'll try to find it....

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323368704578593660384362292

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  20. @syonredux

    But what kind of changes are there due to speed? Are certain kinds of music or movies or books more likely to have been made and appreciated by somebody on speed?
     
    Based on these examples, I would say that it just amplifies what's already there:

    The poet W.H. Auden is probably the most famous example. He took a dose of Benzedrine (a brand name of amphetamine introduced in the United States in 1933) each morning the way many people take a daily multivitamin. At night, he used Seconal or another sedative to get to sleep. He continued this routine—“the chemical life,” he called it—for 20 years, until the efficacy of the pills finally wore off. Auden regarded amphetamines as one of the “labor-saving devices” in the “mental kitchen,” alongside alcohol, coffee, and tobacco—although he was well aware that “these mechanisms are very crude, liable to injure the cook, and constantly breaking down.”
     

    Graham Greene had a similarly pragmatic approach to amphetamines. In 1939, while laboring on what he was certain would be his greatest novel, The Power and the Glory, Greene decided to also write one of his “entertainments”—melodramatic thrillers that lacked artistry but that he knew would make money. He worked on both books simultaneously, devoting his mornings to the thriller The Confidential Agent and his afternoons to The Power and the Glory. To keep it up, he took Benzedrine tablets twice daily, one upon waking and the other at midday. As a result he was able to write 2,000 words in the mornings alone, as opposed to his usual 500. After only six weeks, The Confidential Agent was completed and on its way to being published. (The Power and the Glory took four more months.)
     

    Greene soon stopped taking the drug; not all writers had such self-control. In 1942 Ayn Rand took up Benzedrine to help her finish her novel, The Fountainhead.* She had spent years planning and composing the first third of the novel; over the next 12 months, thanks to the new pills, she averaged a chapter a week. But the drug quickly became a crutch. Rand would continue to use amphetamines for the next three decades, even as her overuse led to mood swings, irritability, emotional outbursts, and paranoia—traits Rand was susceptible to even without drugs.

     


    Jean-Paul Sartre was similarly dependent. In the 1950s, already exhausted from too much work on too little sleep—plus too much wine and cigarettes—the philosopher turned to Corydrane, a mix of amphetamine and aspirin then fashionable among Parisian students, intellectuals, and artists. The prescribed dose was one or two tablets in the morning and at noon. Sartre took 20 a day, beginning with his morning coffee, and slowly chewed one pill after another as he worked. For each tablet, he could produce a page or two of his second major philosophical work, The Critique of Dialectical Reason.

     

    http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/features/2013/daily_rituals/auden_sartre_graham_greene_ayn_rand_they_loved_amphetamines.html

    For clear truthful thinking the druggie is #1 goto. lol

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  21. @candid_observer
    Isn't Adderall like hypomania in a pill?

    Yes, pretty similar to coffee actually.

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  22. @candid_observer
    I don't get the cultural disdain for performance enhancing drugs.

    If Adderall works for normal people, and keeps on working, and has minimal side effects, why isn't it a wonder drug?

    A while ago I made a comment about pre 2008 collapse Wall Street Wizards and WW2 Hitler and myrmidons who, doped up on cocaine and speed respectively, staked out positions which they were incapable of defending when called back to their normal state of mind by an unforgiving Reality.

    Doped behavior has no future.

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  23. Read More
    • Replies: @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    You do realize, don't you, DeanAmine, that what you cite is a humor column. This claim by "Ayn Rand" seems particularly implausible:
    "Then the inside of my head began to sound like a jet engine and so I went to the bathroom. I took maybe ten more speed pills and sat in a stall and wrote a new chapter of “Atlas Shrugged.” Perhaps twenty-five thousand words, all on toilet paper. I cannot include these words in a new edition, alas, because I did not write them so much as encode them on the toilet paper by biting it."
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  24. @candid_observer
    I don't get the cultural disdain for performance enhancing drugs.

    If Adderall works for normal people, and keeps on working, and has minimal side effects, why isn't it a wonder drug?

    Adderall has little long term effect similar to coffee. The military switched to Modafinil due the greater benefits of it.

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    • Replies: @Steve in Greensboro
    As Patrick Henry said, "give me Librium or give me Meth!"
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  25. Steve — you have a typo:

    You wrote: “. . . handed them out to guys who needed to stay away to not die. ”

    should be: ” . . . handed them out to guys who needed to stay awake to not die. ”

    Is your autospeller on Adderall?

    I used pot to find the problem.

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    • Replies: @Stumpy Pepys
    I used pot to find the problem.

    It always comes back to MotherNature don't it??

    Phuck Pills.
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  26. Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Giving soldiers something or other has a very old history. It used to be booze.
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  27. @Almost Missouri
    There are a few of the Unz commenters that I suspect of writing under the influence (WUI).

    Though some of them may suspect me of the same.

    New tagline for Unz.com:

    Safer than Speed; More Effective than Adderall!

    I’m frequently UIo’bourbon, but I save my really incoherent drunk/falling asleep comments for Reddit (y’all’re welcome). But I assume you’re referring to Intelligent Dasein, but I think he just has a mood disorder.

    I’ve written Amazon reviews UIo’Adderall before. It’s easier to finish, but not better.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Given his name and arguments ID sounds to me like a genuine philosophy major, which is the worst case scenario of Cassandrism: you know exactly why everyone else is wrong, and you will never persuade a single one of them.
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  28. There’s always Dexy’s Midnight Runners, Dexy being short for Dexadrine (dextroamphetamine)

    The Beatles were able to play all night every night in Hamburg with the help of amphetamines. They might not have been propelled into mega-stardom without that formative experience.

    While the Grateful Dead are better known as an LSD band their first album was recorded under the influence of amphetamines and you can hear it in their very early performances, before the acid became a more overt influence. Bassist Phil Lesh says he got Hep C (which led to his liver transplant in 1998) from a brief period of shooting speed early on.

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    • Replies: @yaqub the mad scientist
    That Jefferson Airplane live album sounds like they're on meth - way faster tempos on several songs and an overall agressive feel. It seems the west coast hip crowd did a lot of meth after the initial LSD phase.
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    Beatles also got in a few brawls on speed, including one where they pulled off a surprise smackdown of Bruno Kochsmeider's professional thugs. Not bad for the lads from Liverpool!
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  29. Kerouac, certainly. Whether the consequences were positive or negative, I’ll leave to others to decide.

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  30. Years ago I drove, by myself to Long Island, picked up my kids from my ex-wife, turned around and drove back. A friend gave me two “Mollies” to help me if I needed to stay awake. I was fine until about maybe four hours from Buffalo. I took them both with a cup of coffee. Three days later I still hadn’t fallen asleep or peed. Hell, I think I washed and polished our driveway. Once and only once.

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    • Replies: @Ripple Earthdevil
    Molly? That's a common nickname for MDMA, which is in the amphetamine family but a totally different ball of wax entirely as far as effects go.
    , @J.Ross
    Howard Stern talked about trying speed for a school test in a subject where he was not confident: he answered, erased, and re-answered the same question forty times, and never saw the rest of the test.
    , @snorlax
    Good thing they didn't[?] contain any actual "molly" (MDMA) then, because there's no way you'd be in any state to be driving or that anyone sane would suggest them as a driving aid.

    PSA: Actual MDMA, if you can find it, is the one drug I recommend everyone try at least once. For best results take approx 175mg with 1-3 friends or friendly strangers who've taken the same amount, dim the lights, put on music (preferably loud with heavy bass and synthesizer), drink plenty of water and break out the glowsticks (or flashlights).

    For 30-45 minutes nothing will happen, then there will be a brief moment of nausea which is normal, then the next 3 hours will be an indescribably wonderful experience. The best way I can describe it is like having an hours-long orgasm with every inch of your body and all five senses, and even that doesn't quite give it justice (mostly because the feeling isn't sexual at all and in fact most people temporarily lose interest in sex).

    Simultaneously, you will lose all the insecurities and hangups that prevent you from communicating with other people. You will be able to air and mutually resolve uncomfortable subjects without any judgments or anger, even after it's worn off. You will realize important things about yourself. Your relationships with the people you took it with will be much closer than before.

    Just make sure you wait at least 2 weeks (really a month) before trying it again or you'll get very little effect followed by a killer hangover. (Which is why it has low potential for addiction). The social aspect is key; don't take it alone because you'll just get sad you have nobody to talk to, and don't take it around only sober people because you'll become convinced everyone knows you're on drugs and is mad at you.

    This is probably not the most receptive venue and I expect I'll get some mockery or condemnation in response, but really, don't knock it until you've tried it! I'm a respectable upper-middle-class professional, I just hung out a lot with the hippie crowd in college.
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  31. Adderall seems, among other things, to juice up the verbal reasoning abilities of people who are already verbally loaded. It allows these people to be prolific. Moreover, it seems to do away with the diffidence and indecisiveness associated with writer’s block (Paul Valery said that he tried to write the Great French Novel with the opening chapter describing a countess going to opera at 6PM. He said he never finished the novel because he could never figure out why it shouldn’t begin with a baroness going to the theater at 7PM: he could have used Adderall).

    At the same time, it creates a strange empathic enthusiasm; you feel a deep bond of love and understanding with the people you know, to an almost frenzied degree.

    However, it does something bad to the mind. I believe that there are a great deal more people in this country with psychotic and paranoid conditions that mimic schizophrenia, due to abuse of adderall and other types of speed. I’ve run into a handful of so-called “Targeted Individuals” in the past couple years: my guess is that they were speed users. It is an underreported problem.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    At the same time, it creates a strange empathic enthusiasm; you feel a deep bond of love and understanding with the people you know, to an almost frenzied degree.


     

    If so, then that is unique to Adderall - I've had the unfortunate experience of knowing more than a few drug dealers, all who were stimulant users as well. To put it lightly, they were disgusting creeps who definitely did not display such traits of love or understanding, not while forcing preteens to do porn for a little more cash.

    And that's one of the milder things they did.

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  32. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Nootropoc (wikipedia):

    “…also known as smart drugs and cognitive enhancers, are drugs, supplements, and other substances that improve cognitive function, particularly executive functions, memory, creativity, or motivation, in healthy individuals…

    …the international sales of cognition-enhancing supplements exceeded US$1 billion in 2015 and the global demand for these compounds is still growing rapidly…

    …Among students, nootropics have been used to increase productivity… Among students, nootropics have been used to increase productivity… 0.7–4.5% of German students have used cognitive enhancers… 5–35% of college students use diverted ADHD stimulants, which are primarily used for performance enhancement rather than as recreational drugs…”

    “Study Drugs”, University of Texas Health Services:

    “The term “study drugs” refers to prescription drugs used to increase concentration and stamina for the purpose of studying or cramming. Study drugs are prescription stimulant medications that are used improperly by a person with a prescription, or more often, illegally by a person without a prescription. These medications are used to treat Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), which affect attention span, impulse control, self-discipline, and hyperactivity in the case of ADHD.

    Prescription stimulants used to treat ADD and ADHD include Ritalin®, Adderall®, Concerta®, and Focalin®. Using or buying these medications without a prescription is illegal. Selling your own prescription is also illegal. UT Police Department, Student Conduct and Academic Integrity, and City of Austin Police Department treat illegal use of prescription drugs as they would any other illegal substance….

    The misuse of prescription drugs, especially study drugs, is a growing problem on our campus. Some students feel like everyone they know is using study drugs, and they feel pressured to use or to ‘catch up’ with peers. A recent UT survey found that the majority (87%) of students do not use study drugs…

    …Some students may feel like study drugs and cramming are their only options for success.

    ““Study Drug” Abuse by College Students: What You Need to Know”,
    Simon Essig Aberg, National Center for Health Research:

    “…The use of drugs like Adderall and other so-called “study drugs” has skyrocketed over the past two decades. One reason is that the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved a version of the drug, Adderall XR, which lasts much longer than other prescription stimulants…

    …A study of more than 10,000 college students from across the country found that more than half of students with an Adderall or other ADHD drug prescription were asked to sell the medication to peers and friends…

    …a small Maine liberal arts college, found that one in every three students had abused Adderall at some point…

    …Whether the typical abuse rate is 7% or 33%, or something in between, the extent of the problem is alarming…”

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  33. @Hodag
    Motorhead. You get Motorhead on speed.

    I love Motörhead.

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    • Replies: @horseball
    me too.
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  34. Are certain kinds of music or movies or books more likely to have been made and appreciated by somebody on speed

    Punk was speed-saturated; the punks eschewing the marijuana of the hippies and prog-rockers and the alcohol of the metal brigade…this accounts for both the tempo and (merciful) brevity of punk music, and (given speed’s long term tendency to wreck the libido) its strangely contemptuous and dismissive attitude toward sex (Johnny Rotten describing sex as “three minutes of squelching noises”, Richard Hell’s “Love Comes in Spurts”)

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  35. @syonredux

    But what kind of changes are there due to speed? Are certain kinds of music or movies or books more likely to have been made and appreciated by somebody on speed?
     
    Based on these examples, I would say that it just amplifies what's already there:

    The poet W.H. Auden is probably the most famous example. He took a dose of Benzedrine (a brand name of amphetamine introduced in the United States in 1933) each morning the way many people take a daily multivitamin. At night, he used Seconal or another sedative to get to sleep. He continued this routine—“the chemical life,” he called it—for 20 years, until the efficacy of the pills finally wore off. Auden regarded amphetamines as one of the “labor-saving devices” in the “mental kitchen,” alongside alcohol, coffee, and tobacco—although he was well aware that “these mechanisms are very crude, liable to injure the cook, and constantly breaking down.”
     

    Graham Greene had a similarly pragmatic approach to amphetamines. In 1939, while laboring on what he was certain would be his greatest novel, The Power and the Glory, Greene decided to also write one of his “entertainments”—melodramatic thrillers that lacked artistry but that he knew would make money. He worked on both books simultaneously, devoting his mornings to the thriller The Confidential Agent and his afternoons to The Power and the Glory. To keep it up, he took Benzedrine tablets twice daily, one upon waking and the other at midday. As a result he was able to write 2,000 words in the mornings alone, as opposed to his usual 500. After only six weeks, The Confidential Agent was completed and on its way to being published. (The Power and the Glory took four more months.)
     

    Greene soon stopped taking the drug; not all writers had such self-control. In 1942 Ayn Rand took up Benzedrine to help her finish her novel, The Fountainhead.* She had spent years planning and composing the first third of the novel; over the next 12 months, thanks to the new pills, she averaged a chapter a week. But the drug quickly became a crutch. Rand would continue to use amphetamines for the next three decades, even as her overuse led to mood swings, irritability, emotional outbursts, and paranoia—traits Rand was susceptible to even without drugs.

     


    Jean-Paul Sartre was similarly dependent. In the 1950s, already exhausted from too much work on too little sleep—plus too much wine and cigarettes—the philosopher turned to Corydrane, a mix of amphetamine and aspirin then fashionable among Parisian students, intellectuals, and artists. The prescribed dose was one or two tablets in the morning and at noon. Sartre took 20 a day, beginning with his morning coffee, and slowly chewed one pill after another as he worked. For each tablet, he could produce a page or two of his second major philosophical work, The Critique of Dialectical Reason.

     

    http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/features/2013/daily_rituals/auden_sartre_graham_greene_ayn_rand_they_loved_amphetamines.html

    OT, but this…

    In 1939, while laboring on what he was certain would be his greatest novel, The Power and the Glory, Greene decided to also write one of his “entertainments”—melodramatic thrillers that lacked artistry but that he knew would make money.

    …strikes me as similar to the plot/devices of Kaufman’s Adaptation film. Anyone know of any connection? (A cursory Google yielded nothing.)

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    • Replies: @Daniel H
    >>In 1939, while laboring on what he was certain would be his greatest novel, The Power and the Glory,

    And it was his greatest novel, at least of the ones I have read. Brilliant writer. Efficient writer, he could capture the entire plot, characterization and world in what many would regard as a novella. Should have won the Nobel. Story is, there was some bias against him on the part of some judges because he was nominally Catholic. Don't know, but wouldn't be surprised.
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  36. @Buffalo Joe
    Years ago I drove, by myself to Long Island, picked up my kids from my ex-wife, turned around and drove back. A friend gave me two "Mollies" to help me if I needed to stay awake. I was fine until about maybe four hours from Buffalo. I took them both with a cup of coffee. Three days later I still hadn't fallen asleep or peed. Hell, I think I washed and polished our driveway. Once and only once.

    Molly? That’s a common nickname for MDMA, which is in the amphetamine family but a totally different ball of wax entirely as far as effects go.

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    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Joe is a senior citizen and slang does change...
    , @Buffalo Joe
    Rip, not a pharmacist, but I remember them being called Mollies.
    , @CJ
    I recall hearing that name, pluralized mollies as Joe wrote it, used for Dexedrine in the very late 1960s/early 1970s in Canada. The more popular name for them at the time was "pollutants". They fell into the category of "uppers" as opposed to "downers" like Mandrax and Quaaludes. There was also -- at the time -- an allegedly psychedelic drug known as MDA, whose effects allegedly lasted for several hours. It was sold with the motto, "MDA keeps you tripping when other drugs have stopped". I never heard of it again until MMDA/Ecstasy/"Molly" appeared.
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  37. @J.Ross
    For "Adderall" read "all psychiatric medication to include table sugar." It's very long and it's from the Church of Scientology, but the best treatment of this is the documentary "Marketing of Madness," free on YouTube. There are also the books of Dr Peter Breggin, who is not a Scientologist, and who gives information on how to get off these scienceless experiments (it's a very bad idea to go cold turkey).

    Is table sugar considered to be a psychotropic?

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Jacob Sullum listed it as such in one of his libertarian legalization pieces. I have done sugar fasts where by far the most striking results were not with weight but with stability of mood. Every celebration menu has lots of sugar to guarantee guest happiness.
    Sullum's book Saying Yes is the best one-volume treatment of American drug use.
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  38. The stuff is truly nasty, and I say that having been prescribed it off and on for 15 years now. It’s scarily effective, addictive (for me) and has horrible, compounding side effects. The first thing to k ow it is addictive for two treason: it provides a burst of europoria feeling for about 30-45 minutes after taking it. I felt great, super productive, talkative, social and fun for about two hours. Then I’d be productive for another two hours (most days I’d have taken a second dose about now), then a headache and withdrawal symptoms ( the total appetite suppression effect doesn’t help with this). So it does have beneficial effects, but it’s primary effect is addicting too in that I would use it as a crutch that I stopped getting anything done unless I had it. Anything, moderately small and larger at work, boom, I’d take it. Then I wouldn’t sleep, so I’d drink or used cough syrup to sleep, be hungover and guess what the best hangover cure is: amphetamines!

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  39. @syonredux

    But what kind of changes are there due to speed? Are certain kinds of music or movies or books more likely to have been made and appreciated by somebody on speed?
     
    Based on these examples, I would say that it just amplifies what's already there:

    The poet W.H. Auden is probably the most famous example. He took a dose of Benzedrine (a brand name of amphetamine introduced in the United States in 1933) each morning the way many people take a daily multivitamin. At night, he used Seconal or another sedative to get to sleep. He continued this routine—“the chemical life,” he called it—for 20 years, until the efficacy of the pills finally wore off. Auden regarded amphetamines as one of the “labor-saving devices” in the “mental kitchen,” alongside alcohol, coffee, and tobacco—although he was well aware that “these mechanisms are very crude, liable to injure the cook, and constantly breaking down.”
     

    Graham Greene had a similarly pragmatic approach to amphetamines. In 1939, while laboring on what he was certain would be his greatest novel, The Power and the Glory, Greene decided to also write one of his “entertainments”—melodramatic thrillers that lacked artistry but that he knew would make money. He worked on both books simultaneously, devoting his mornings to the thriller The Confidential Agent and his afternoons to The Power and the Glory. To keep it up, he took Benzedrine tablets twice daily, one upon waking and the other at midday. As a result he was able to write 2,000 words in the mornings alone, as opposed to his usual 500. After only six weeks, The Confidential Agent was completed and on its way to being published. (The Power and the Glory took four more months.)
     

    Greene soon stopped taking the drug; not all writers had such self-control. In 1942 Ayn Rand took up Benzedrine to help her finish her novel, The Fountainhead.* She had spent years planning and composing the first third of the novel; over the next 12 months, thanks to the new pills, she averaged a chapter a week. But the drug quickly became a crutch. Rand would continue to use amphetamines for the next three decades, even as her overuse led to mood swings, irritability, emotional outbursts, and paranoia—traits Rand was susceptible to even without drugs.

     


    Jean-Paul Sartre was similarly dependent. In the 1950s, already exhausted from too much work on too little sleep—plus too much wine and cigarettes—the philosopher turned to Corydrane, a mix of amphetamine and aspirin then fashionable among Parisian students, intellectuals, and artists. The prescribed dose was one or two tablets in the morning and at noon. Sartre took 20 a day, beginning with his morning coffee, and slowly chewed one pill after another as he worked. For each tablet, he could produce a page or two of his second major philosophical work, The Critique of Dialectical Reason.

     

    http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/features/2013/daily_rituals/auden_sartre_graham_greene_ayn_rand_they_loved_amphetamines.html

    Mathematicians Paul Erdős and Alfred Tarski were amphetamine users.

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  40. @Buffalo Joe
    Years ago I drove, by myself to Long Island, picked up my kids from my ex-wife, turned around and drove back. A friend gave me two "Mollies" to help me if I needed to stay awake. I was fine until about maybe four hours from Buffalo. I took them both with a cup of coffee. Three days later I still hadn't fallen asleep or peed. Hell, I think I washed and polished our driveway. Once and only once.

    Howard Stern talked about trying speed for a school test in a subject where he was not confident: he answered, erased, and re-answered the same question forty times, and never saw the rest of the test.

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  41. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “The Rise of Work-Doping: The drug modafinil was recently found to enhance cognition in healthy people. Should you take it to get a raise?”, Olga Khazan, The Atlantic, Aug 27, 2015:

    “…In a meta-analysis recently published in European Neuropsychopharmacology, researchers from the University of Oxford and Harvard Medical School concluded that a drug called modafinil, which is typically used to treat sleep disorders, is a cognitive enhancer. Essentially, it can help normal people think better.

    Out of all cognitive processes, modafinil was found to improve decision-making and planning the most in the 24 studies the authors reviewed. Some of the studies also showed gains in flexible thinking, combining information, or coping with novelty. The drug didn’t seem to influence creativity either way…

    …“What emerged was that the longer and the more complex the task, … the more consistently modafinil showed cognitive benefits,”

    …the authors found no safety concerns in the data…

    …Modafinil is one of an arsenal of drugs, which includes Adderall, Ritalin, and Concerta, that are increasingly used “off-label” by college students and adults seeking greater productivity…

    The paper hints at a coming debate over the ethics of smart drugs.…”

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  42. But what kind of changes are there due to speed? Are certain kinds of music or movies or books more likely to have been made and appreciated by somebody on speed?

    I’m guessing drugs like Adderall make it easier to get from point A to point B in creating something, but decrease the number of natural detours one might take in the creative process. I’d also guess expression in the medium of commmunication (eg, prose) becomes more direct and transparent.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Long term use causes receptor sensitivity to dopamine stimulation to decrease, so there's both tolerance and addictive effects, without considering other things from screwing around with neurochemicals. Messing with the brain is not a free lunch, though as with Gwern, I believe when done with care and understanding it can lead to overall benefits.

    We don't know about "creativity" to make too many informed comments, but the evidence indeed is that the 'tunnel vision" does effectively sabotage the "diffuse thinking" portions of the brain for creative understanding. Of course, there's a pill for that too...

    I generally agree that the brain is no longer well optimized for modern society; that and distractions have become too well optimized.

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  43. @Chrisnonymous
    I'm frequently UIo'bourbon, but I save my really incoherent drunk/falling asleep comments for Reddit (y'all're welcome). But I assume you're referring to Intelligent Dasein, but I think he just has a mood disorder.

    I've written Amazon reviews UIo'Adderall before. It's easier to finish, but not better.

    Given his name and arguments ID sounds to me like a genuine philosophy major, which is the worst case scenario of Cassandrism: you know exactly why everyone else is wrong, and you will never persuade a single one of them.

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  44. @J.Ross
    There was a famous movie mogul, I believe Selznick, who popped uppers like candy.

    Orson Welles allegedly took a lot of benzedrine while filming Citizen Kane.

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  45. Surely this discussion wouldn’t be complete without a mention of Paul Erdos and his benzedrine (an early prescription amphetamine) and ritalin. A very productive mathematician for many years (possibly the most productive ever) and used it until the very end of his life. Only break was when colleagues bet him he couldn’t quit for a month. He was able to successfully stop for the month, but found his work suffered, and rued that mathematics had been set back by 1 month.

    I don’t have an Erdos number but I’m sure someone in the commentariat here has a low one.

    I’ve never used amphetamines/ritalin/etc but I have found getting a good sleep, then moderate coffee gives me about four extremely productive hours, then a nap, then two more extremely productive hours, then sleep, is the best pattern overall. If I load up on coffee I can burn through 8 hours with only short breaks but I feel like I start to lose big-picture thinking/creativity.

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    • Replies: @Polymath
    Yes, my Erdos number is 2 (consequence of my Conway number being 1).

    These drugs help some people more than others, but most people can benefit. Because I always had excellent concentration and stamina, I would probably not be helped much (though they would, I expect, at least reverse the small drop in those capacities I’ve experienced over the last 30 years). I guess they’d be the most useful if I was trying to prove an extremely difficult new theorem, but only if I had already gotten the ideas I needed and just needed to make it all work; before that stage, they might suppress my creativity. (Erdos was different, an ADD case for sure, the boost in his concentration was the more significant effect by far).

    Mathematicians I know have told me that they are more creative on pot or LSD. I haven’t tried them, but creativity is not where I need the most help. Probably the best use of speed for me would be to help me learn some hard areas of math I didn’t get around to in grad school.
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  46. The mathematician Paul Erdös, who famously opined that “a mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems,” began taking Benzedrine in his late 50s and credited the drug with extending his productivity long past the expiration date of his colleagues. But he eventually became psychologically dependent. In 1979, a friend offered Erdös $500 if he could kick his Benzedrine habit for just a month. Erdös met the challenge, but his productivity plummeted so drastically that he decided to go back on the drug. After a 1987 Atlantic Monthly profile discussed his love affair with psychostimulants, the mathematician wrote the author a rueful note. “You shouldn’t have mentioned the stuff about Benzedrine,” he said. “It’s not that you got it wrong. It’s just that I don’t want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics to think that they have to take drugs to succeed.”

    http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2005/05/the_adderall_me.single.html

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  47. Someone already mentioned Sartre and Corydrane. They didn’t mention his last work, a 2800-page, three-volume, unfinished commentary on Flaubert.

    “You see, my trusting in Corydrane,” he told Beauvoir in 1974, “was to some extent the pursuit of the imaginary. While I was working, after taking ten Corydranes in the morning, my state was one of complete bodily surrender. I perceived myself through the motion of my pen, my forming images and ideas… So to put it briefly, in philosophy writing consisted of analyzing my ideas; and a tube of Corydrane meant these ideas will be analyzed in the next two days.”

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  48. Perhaps Adderall is no more potent a stimulant than caffeine, and is only stigmatized due to accident of history and bioavailability.

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    • Replies: @Daniel H
    >>Perhaps Adderall is no more potent a stimulant than caffeine, and is only stigmatized due to accident of history and bioavailability.

    But coffee gives me the runs nowadays (It didn't used to. Could drink 5 cups of strong Brazilian style coffee in the old days). The only coffee I drink today is my morning run to McDonalds, and I'm home 5 minutes later, and my afternoon run to Starbucks, where I'm home 5 minutes later.
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  49. @Ripple Earthdevil
    There's always Dexy's Midnight Runners, Dexy being short for Dexadrine (dextroamphetamine)

    The Beatles were able to play all night every night in Hamburg with the help of amphetamines. They might not have been propelled into mega-stardom without that formative experience.

    While the Grateful Dead are better known as an LSD band their first album was recorded under the influence of amphetamines and you can hear it in their very early performances, before the acid became a more overt influence. Bassist Phil Lesh says he got Hep C (which led to his liver transplant in 1998) from a brief period of shooting speed early on.

    That Jefferson Airplane live album sounds like they’re on meth – way faster tempos on several songs and an overall agressive feel. It seems the west coast hip crowd did a lot of meth after the initial LSD phase.

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    • Replies: @James Bowery
    From their Volunteers album, there is likely counterevidence in the song "Hey Frederick":


    ..How many machine men will you see before you
    Stop believing that speed
    Will slide down on you
    Like brakes in bad weather...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w25xghugIdg

    1969 was not likely after the LSD phase and their lyrics indicate they may already have had some (friends with) bad experiences with amphetamines.


    Also, from the same era in the SF Bay area, we have Philip K. Dick who apparently was dealing and using large quantities of amphetamine to support his writing habit. A bout of malignant high blood pressure February and March 1974 sent him off on a religious experience detailed in his voluminous "Exigesis" about how we're living in something of a virtual reality.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exegesis_of_Philip_K._Dick

    That's quite a coincidence because those were the months during which the first multiplayer VR (in the sense of 3D space in which people interact from the first person perspective) manifest on the PLATO network:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMZv5Akcum8

    He died a little over a decade later of stroke probably brought on by high blood pressure.

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  50. Overclocking

    Gregory Cochran

    There is a good chance that an odd cluster of hereditary neurological diseases among the Ashkenazi Jews is a side-effect of strong selection for increased intelligence. The idea is not really new, but the evidence has gotten stronger with time, and I have recently found some intriguing supporting data…

    https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/cochran/overclocking.html#Cochran

    The West has adopted the Jewish mindset without the Jewish genes that go with it.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    There's a problem with this. Ashkenazi Jews went through a population bottleneck. Let's say you have a small cluster of high IQ individuals who went through that bottleneck along with another cluster of Jews who carry the genes for these diseases. The descendants of the people who went through the bottleneck will have a mix of both sets of genes, but this still doesn't mean that correlation equals causation. The genes might not have anything to do with producing high IQs.

    Do non-Jewish Askhenazi whites with high IQs have these diseases? I've never heard that they do to any particular degree. But if the same genes that make Askenazi Jews smart are the same genes that make non-Jewish high IQ whites smart, then how did the latter avoid the diseases? Unless there are entirely different sets of genes that can make different populations groups smart, I'm not sure there's any connection between these diseases and IQ.
    , @Lugash
    The West has adopted the Jewish mindset without the Jewish genes that go with it.

    Sometimes I wonder if the explosion in mental disorders is Goys mimicking Jewish neurotic behavior.
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  51. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    And the response to adderall is highly variable. E.g., I get almost magical effects from nicotine but almost nothing from adderall. Quitting smoking was by far the most traumatic experience of my life (probably couldn’t do it without bupropion). Adderall – wish it actually worked but I’ve never noticed it do much of anything. Never dared to ingest more than twice the “safe” dose though.

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    • Replies: @Travis
    same here...I much prefer nicotine to adderall...
    I was never a smoker, started using nicotine lozenges 15 years ago when i read about the benefits, which enabled me to increase my focus at work and lose 15 pound, (made it easy to stop snacking, it really does curb your appetite))....

    After using the lozenges for about 12 months i upgraded to Swedish Snus , a form of smokeless tobacco which is dried, not cured like American chew...thus no need to spit and less carcinogens than the American smokeless tobacco.

    Not only did nicotine help me stop using Ritalin, it reduced my caffeine consumption and helped me reduce my drinking. I currently consume about 20 swedish snus pouches per day...each pouch has 8mg of nicotine and a can of Swedish suns cost $5.00 and has 24 pouches.

    Nicotine really is an amazing drug. Not surprised to see Vaping getting more popular...I have yet to vape, but may consider trying it , as it may be less costly than spending $5 per day on my Swedish Snus.
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  52. @Opinionator

    Meanwhile, Adderall works for people whether they “have” “ADHD” or not. It may work better for people with ADHD – a lot of them report an almost “magical” effect – but it works at least a little for most people. There is a vast literature trying to disprove this. Its main strategy is to show Adderall doesn’t enhance cognition in healthy people. Fine. But mostly it doesn’t enhance cognition in people with ADHD either. People aren’t using Adderall to get smart, they’re using it to focus.
     
    Is it even possible clearly to distinguish between "cognition" and "focus"? If enhanced "focus" translates to improved performance on cognitive tasks, how is that not an enhancement of "cognition"?

    That is surely a fair point. I guess it could be that even with improved focus, a person can’t do what he can’t do. With improved focus, he can do it faster. Consider the SAT. How many people could get a higher score if they had another 30 minutes? or an hour, or two hours, or three? But how many couldn’t? Well, a lot really.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Cf Charles Murray's consistent opinion that the standardized test prep industry is just short of being a scam. At the end of the day some people really are better. But, in a world in which Tennessee Totes is a MacArthur Genius, can you blame a brainlet for trying?
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  53. @Vinay
    “What are the cultural effects of speed-type drugs”

    You expect THERAPEUTIC doses of Adderall to have consciousness-altering effects???

    Amphataminea are used by military aviators on long missions, truckers, cabbies etc., right? Why would it have any more of a cultural effect than, say, coffee?

    Truckers used LA Turnarounds aka speed to complete those round trips up and down California. Then some accidents and other problems helped bring in more regulation with GPS tracking to show where that truck really was when, tighter log books (I knew guys who used to use multiple books for presentation depending on who was asking) and mandated breaks after X hours to keep hallucinating guys from plowing into an Unz reader’s Mercedes, minivan or motorcycle. That led to those semis that you see parked on freeway shoulders and on-ramps giving some low-quality rest time.

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  54. At least 1 song.

    I knew a man who hung drywall, he hung it mighty quick. A trip or two to the blue room would help him do the trick. His foreman pat him on the back, whenever he would come around cuz… those damn blue collar tweakers are the backbone of this town.

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  55. The main effect of amphetamine, or really any stimulant use, is that while it helps you focus in on details and complete cognitively demanding but repetitive tasks, it tends to take a toll on big picture thinking, judgment, creativity, and ability to change course. Those tend to require sleep, downtime, relaxation. Think Hitler in the bunker on speed, making atrocious strategic decisions and doubling down on stupid.

    Amphetamines are not a magic bullet, they are not a cognitive enhancer at all in my opinion. Rather they are a cognitive shifter, that allows you to improve on some types of tasks and worsens performance on others. Amphetamines are small simple molecules closely related to endogenous compounds like epinephrine (compare their chemical structures.) If something that basic provided a real cognitive kick we would have evolved to endogenously produce more of it by now.

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    • Replies: @Chief Seattle
    Agree. Stimulants are a perfect drug for a wartime economy. They help you do more of what you're already doing faster and for longer. They let one man do the work of three. But they are only optimizing within a local maximum. Someone on speed will never see the higher peaks around, they'll be too busy running faster up and down the one in front of them.
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  56. @Joe Schmoe
    That is surely a fair point. I guess it could be that even with improved focus, a person can't do what he can't do. With improved focus, he can do it faster. Consider the SAT. How many people could get a higher score if they had another 30 minutes? or an hour, or two hours, or three? But how many couldn't? Well, a lot really.

    Cf Charles Murray’s consistent opinion that the standardized test prep industry is just short of being a scam. At the end of the day some people really are better. But, in a world in which Tennessee Totes is a MacArthur Genius, can you blame a brainlet for trying?

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  57. @ThreeCranes
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/the-nazi-death-machine-hitler-s-drugged-soldiers-a-354606.html

    Giving soldiers something or other has a very old history. It used to be booze.

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  58. Getting a full night’s sleep, eating properly, and adding moderate exercise is still the best formula. Frankly, if you’re not creative without drugs or alcohol, you were not meant to do creative work. Creative people don’t need enhancers.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Mom, how on earth did you find me here?
    , @Daniel Williams

    Creative people don’t need enhancers.
     
    Gimme a break. Reality is tedious. That's why clever people make up stories and songs. And also why many drink and take drugs.
    , @Daniel H
    >>Frankly, if you’re not creative without drugs or alcohol, you were not meant to do creative work. Creative people don’t need enhancers.

    Bullshit.
    , @J.Ross
    Yeah, Schiller and Coleridge were just winging it.
    , @guest
    The "not meant to do creative work" part is bunk. But you're right it would be better for them to be straighter, in general. They'd get more done.

    We'd lose all the inspiration from drug, but I'm sure that's been overrated. And we'd gain the stuff people would've created had they not burned themselves out.
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  59. But people have been taking a lot of variants of speed since, roughly, WWII when militaries handed them out to guys who needed to stay awake to not die.

    Actually they were handed out to guys so that they could stay awake to complete their mission. Not dying might have been part of that, but only in a secondary sense.

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  60. Nicotine has a stimulative effect with greatly focuses the mind. I wonder how much the world has lost with the decline of smoking. A lot of cancer to be sure, but also a lot of great work.

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    • Replies: @Lugash
    Caffeine and sugar(Starbucks) are the poor substitute for those in somewhat mentally taxing jobs. High pressure jobs are where I see the more serious stimulants. Among the psychologically stressed lower class nicotine is used in conjunction with caffeine and sugar in a near continuous dose to cope.
    , @Bernardista
    Agree.

    Is it coincidental that the decline in smoking runs parallel to the rise in opiate addiction? In addition to focus and stimulation, it also relieves pain and soothes the nerves.

    I also wonder how many mistakes in the workplace are due to nicotine withdrawal; specifically, air traffic controllers sitting there twitching and jonesing for a butt.

    , @Difference maker
    It is a pity that nicotine appears injurious to the blood vessels in and of itself. Otherwise I might get myself some gum

    This will not be about life expectancy, but life quality. Consider the consequences, if, your erection isn't as good, your brain can't receive an increased blood supply, not to mention your other organs, muscles, etc
    , @Harry Baldwin
    I heard an interview with a writer who spent a year trying various approaches to see if any would increase his IQ: long-distance running, learning to play a musical instrument, learning a foreign language, etc. At the end of his year-long experiment, he concluded that the only thing that measurably helped was wearing a nicotine patch.
    , @stillCARealist
    well we've certainly gotten a lot fatter. But, that probably would have happened regardless of the ciggies. Non-smokers were thin before the great change too.

    Another thing to think about is how much better people breathe indoors now that there's no smoke wafting around. Sure, the smoker felt better with his haze, but the non-smoker was gagging.
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  61. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @James Bowery
    Overclocking

    Gregory Cochran



    There is a good chance that an odd cluster of hereditary neurological diseases among the Ashkenazi Jews is a side-effect of strong selection for increased intelligence. The idea is not really new, but the evidence has gotten stronger with time, and I have recently found some intriguing supporting data...

    https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/cochran/overclocking.html#Cochran

    The West has adopted the Jewish mindset without the Jewish genes that go with it.

    There’s a problem with this. Ashkenazi Jews went through a population bottleneck. Let’s say you have a small cluster of high IQ individuals who went through that bottleneck along with another cluster of Jews who carry the genes for these diseases. The descendants of the people who went through the bottleneck will have a mix of both sets of genes, but this still doesn’t mean that correlation equals causation. The genes might not have anything to do with producing high IQs.

    Do non-Jewish Askhenazi whites with high IQs have these diseases? I’ve never heard that they do to any particular degree. But if the same genes that make Askenazi Jews smart are the same genes that make non-Jewish high IQ whites smart, then how did the latter avoid the diseases? Unless there are entirely different sets of genes that can make different populations groups smart, I’m not sure there’s any connection between these diseases and IQ.

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    • Replies: @Alastair Trumpington
    Disease causing mutations in ashkenazi Jews tend to be abnormalities in lipid metabolism. The specific genes involved may may also be important for nervous system development and function. There is at least one disease that is associated with high intelligence in patients (torsion dystonia) while carriers for some other diseases might have a higher than average IQ
    , @Cato
    The speculation is that these alleles boost intelligence in a heterozygous state, but cause disease in a homozygous state. Thus they can become fixed in a population--pretty much the same pattern we see with sickle cell anemia and malaria resistance.
    , @Lars Porsena
    Well, the whole idea of hybrid vigor is that there are many ways to skin a cat. If you take 100 plants and subject them to cold temperature so that 95% die of it, the remaining 5% have random mutations that make them better adapted to handle cold, but they don't all have the same random mutations. That is why if you breed 2 of them, you can get offspring who inherited both separate tricks and end up even more cold tolerant than either of the parents.
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  62. @Vinay
    “What are the cultural effects of speed-type drugs”

    You expect THERAPEUTIC doses of Adderall to have consciousness-altering effects???

    Amphataminea are used by military aviators on long missions, truckers, cabbies etc., right? Why would it have any more of a cultural effect than, say, coffee?

    Coffee’s cultural effect is vast.

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    • Agree: Autochthon
    • Replies: @stillCARealist
    True. But, I'll go out on a limb and say that the stimulant/beneficial effects of it are vastly overrated. A hot drink in the morning will always help the blood vessels dilate and aromas will get the nose breathing more. But the sugar that people pile in it (check out those Starbucks drinks) is probably giving far more of a kick than the caffeine.

    Drinking it black, instead of eating, like women will do for weight control, just increases anxiety.

    Coffee is fine, and can be delicious, but don't think that it's making your life any better. And if you're buying those over-priced, sugar and calorie-filled behemoths at cafes, then it's making you poorer and fatter.
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  63. @bmccaf
    I graduated from a public university consistently ranked in the top 25 overall and top 3 among public universities last hear. That said, I don’t think the general population appreciates the ubiquity of adderall use in academia nowadays, especially at “prestigious” universities. To be frank, you’re at a disadvantage if you do NOT take adhd meds. During finals, my conservative estimate is that 75% of the student body takes advantage of them.

    They’re great for any STEM class, and incredibly useful for the long readings assigned in the humanities. Adderall, in my experience, isn’t great for writing papers (at least, you’ll want to take a second look with a sober brain. Run-on sentences, distracting and unnecessary tangents, and tiresome repetitiousness of the same point(s) are common, whether or not someone’s been diagnosed with ADHD.)

    Culturally, Kerouac and Philip K. Dick immediately spring to mind as writers whose most famous books were completed under the influence. The complexity and novel stylistic choices in “Infinite Jest” were infinitely more interesting with Adderall versus without it. I can’t say exactly which musical genres are the result of speed usage ( maybe experimental indie rock. The group Animal Collective springs to mind.) My appreciation of all music is greatly enhanced by Adderall.

    I’m probably in the minority here, but I think amphetamine (not METHamphetmines) should be available over-the-counter because they’re a fantastic tool if used responsibly. And maybe we can drop this whole charade of pretending ADHD is a real “disease”, rather than a symptom of present day way of life.

    Werent the Beatles hopped up on speed throughout the Hamburg period? Same with Johnny Cash?

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  64. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    You all have turned me on to the idea of using Adderall or Benzedrine. I wish I’d used it in college. Or even in high school. I want to start this whole game of life over! Just turn back the clock to the age of 5. God how I’d do things differently. I would be obsessed with reading and study and trying to have as much sex with as many women as possible. Forget the time I wasted with baseball cards and sports practice. I’ve lived 50 years of caution and striving to be average. I wish I could just pick one year, maybe age 14, to live over again. It’s be a year on the prowl for poontang. I’d be seducing my middle-aged female teachers and wives and rich widows in my neighborhood. My first day of school I’d be like, “I wish I could understand this binomial theorem better, Mrs. Johnson. Could I stay after school and you help me with this, Mrs. Johnson?”

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  65. @candid_observer
    I don't get the cultural disdain for performance enhancing drugs.

    If Adderall works for normal people, and keeps on working, and has minimal side effects, why isn't it a wonder drug?

    3 candid_observer > I don’t get the cultural disdain for performance enhancing drugs

    i’ll match you, and raise you one: I don’t get the cultural disdain for performance enhancing drugs when used by athletes.

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    • Agree: Realist, Travis
    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool
    The documentary Bigger, Stronger, Faster does an excellent job of litigating just that point. The film showcases the hypocrisy of a society awash in performance enhancing drugs that bans their use in sports, while basing entire industries on their promotion elsewhere.
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  66. shit…Adderall. It is an evil drug, but so many people swear by this drug. – yuge EFFFFF.

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  67. @SimpleSong
    The main effect of amphetamine, or really any stimulant use, is that while it helps you focus in on details and complete cognitively demanding but repetitive tasks, it tends to take a toll on big picture thinking, judgment, creativity, and ability to change course. Those tend to require sleep, downtime, relaxation. Think Hitler in the bunker on speed, making atrocious strategic decisions and doubling down on stupid.

    Amphetamines are not a magic bullet, they are not a cognitive enhancer at all in my opinion. Rather they are a cognitive shifter, that allows you to improve on some types of tasks and worsens performance on others. Amphetamines are small simple molecules closely related to endogenous compounds like epinephrine (compare their chemical structures.) If something that basic provided a real cognitive kick we would have evolved to endogenously produce more of it by now.

    Agree. Stimulants are a perfect drug for a wartime economy. They help you do more of what you’re already doing faster and for longer. They let one man do the work of three. But they are only optimizing within a local maximum. Someone on speed will never see the higher peaks around, they’ll be too busy running faster up and down the one in front of them.

    Read More
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  68. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    You get about 4 good hours on Adderall. And then you crash. The crash can be mild but you might be pressed by a deadline and want to take another one. The 4 good hours might have been very productive, or you might have wasted time doing something else. Adderall helps you focus tremendously, but if you get sidetracked by something other than your pressing task, you can end up focusing on the distraction. This includes conversations with other people. You can become much more loquacious and articulate on Adderall and get absorbed in quite mundane and pointless conversations with other people. Anyway, so if you don’t get your work done, then you pop another Adderall, which gets you another good 4 hours, but the crash is even greater after that. So you have to be careful and use it prudently. There’s also an extended release version of Adderall that’s milder and lasts longer.

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Do you know the biological/chemical mechanism that produces the crash?
    , @candid_observer
    Or, you could split the dose of Adderall between the morning and the afternoon.
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  69. @Buffalo Joe
    Years ago I drove, by myself to Long Island, picked up my kids from my ex-wife, turned around and drove back. A friend gave me two "Mollies" to help me if I needed to stay awake. I was fine until about maybe four hours from Buffalo. I took them both with a cup of coffee. Three days later I still hadn't fallen asleep or peed. Hell, I think I washed and polished our driveway. Once and only once.

    Good thing they didn’t[?] contain any actual “molly” (MDMA) then, because there’s no way you’d be in any state to be driving or that anyone sane would suggest them as a driving aid.

    PSA: Actual MDMA, if you can find it, is the one drug I recommend everyone try at least once. For best results take approx 175mg with 1-3 friends or friendly strangers who’ve taken the same amount, dim the lights, put on music (preferably loud with heavy bass and synthesizer), drink plenty of water and break out the glowsticks (or flashlights).

    For 30-45 minutes nothing will happen, then there will be a brief moment of nausea which is normal, then the next 3 hours will be an indescribably wonderful experience. The best way I can describe it is like having an hours-long orgasm with every inch of your body and all five senses, and even that doesn’t quite give it justice (mostly because the feeling isn’t sexual at all and in fact most people temporarily lose interest in sex).

    Simultaneously, you will lose all the insecurities and hangups that prevent you from communicating with other people. You will be able to air and mutually resolve uncomfortable subjects without any judgments or anger, even after it’s worn off. You will realize important things about yourself. Your relationships with the people you took it with will be much closer than before.

    Just make sure you wait at least 2 weeks (really a month) before trying it again or you’ll get very little effect followed by a killer hangover. (Which is why it has low potential for addiction). The social aspect is key; don’t take it alone because you’ll just get sad you have nobody to talk to, and don’t take it around only sober people because you’ll become convinced everyone knows you’re on drugs and is mad at you.

    This is probably not the most receptive venue and I expect I’ll get some mockery or condemnation in response, but really, don’t knock it until you’ve tried it! I’m a respectable upper-middle-class professional, I just hung out a lot with the hippie crowd in college.

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    • Replies: @AndrewR
    It can be a beneficial experience but I've done it about eight times and never want to again.
    , @Stebbing Heuer
    Thanks for this.

    No judgment from me.
    , @YetAnotherAnon
    Sounds a bit like LSD-using advice from the 70s.


    But on some occasions the street variety can kill you, ne c'est pas? Or are all those grieving parents in the papers talking nonsense? (A friend's 15 year old son took 'E' and she spent an unpleasant 24 hours at his hospital bedside after he collapsed in the street. It may be that alcohol was also involved.)
    , @ThreeCranes
    I'm on board with Stebbing. Good comment and thanks for the insight. Never tried it myself, but your description of the framing sounds similar to that for a pleasant Acid trip. (Except we tried to do it outdoors, like on a wild sand dune along Lake Michigan.)
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  70. Cocaine&Uppers were always the secret ingredient to the hippie rock stars-

    Contrary to popular opinion, Sgt.Pepper’s was peak-cocaine for Paul McCartney’s Beatles career- that was a cocaine&pot album. [see: Joe Goodden’s Riding So High: The Beatles and Drugs (2017).]

    At the same time, the cocaine&lsd/pot&amphetamine formula led to the mental crackup of McCartney’s main pop rival, the superior but more unstable Brian Wilson whose foray into cocaine use in late 1966-1967 (before cocaine was again popular) led to a million ideas he could never finish (later PR’ed into being the “Smile” era), half of them sounding like the beyond twee “Games Two Can Play” (think Lovely Rita/Maxwell’s Silver Hammer with MORE cocaine); lifelong addiction issues; paranoia and other latent mental problems coming to the surface.

    There is a point where you are playing with fire.

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    • Replies: @Pericles
    There was also Syd Barrett of Pink Floyd. Sad case, even worse if this is true (from wikipedia):

    Other friends assert that Barrett's infamous flatmates, "Mad Jock" and "Mad Sue," believed that acid held all the answers and thought of Barrett as a genius or "god," and were spiking his morning coffee with LSD every day without his knowledge, leaving him in a never-ending trip.

     

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  71. The German blitzkrieg of 1939-1941 was the result of soldiers given speed. Some of these soldiers went insane. Panzergroup Pieper in the Ardennes in 1944 seems to have been wired. This explains some of their behavior.
    The US 8th Air Force was wired. One of the results of using speed is that you have to crash at some point. 8th AF missions were planned with this in mind.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    British troops used 72 million amphetamine tablets in the second world war[2] and the RAF used so many that "Methedrine won the Battle of Britain" according to one report.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alertness
    , @guest
    Bear in mind, when they weren't tweaking they were drunk. The Germans were free with the Schnapps, the British with the Scotch, and so on.

    And we wonder why they so often shot like Stormtroopers.

    (I know, I know, it's really hard t kill people with rifles in battle. )
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  72. @Anonymous
    You get about 4 good hours on Adderall. And then you crash. The crash can be mild but you might be pressed by a deadline and want to take another one. The 4 good hours might have been very productive, or you might have wasted time doing something else. Adderall helps you focus tremendously, but if you get sidetracked by something other than your pressing task, you can end up focusing on the distraction. This includes conversations with other people. You can become much more loquacious and articulate on Adderall and get absorbed in quite mundane and pointless conversations with other people. Anyway, so if you don't get your work done, then you pop another Adderall, which gets you another good 4 hours, but the crash is even greater after that. So you have to be careful and use it prudently. There's also an extended release version of Adderall that's milder and lasts longer.

    Do you know the biological/chemical mechanism that produces the crash?

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  73. @Ripple Earthdevil
    Molly? That's a common nickname for MDMA, which is in the amphetamine family but a totally different ball of wax entirely as far as effects go.

    Joe is a senior citizen and slang does change…

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    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    Andrew, thank you for coming to the defense of a senile citizen. Happy New Year my friend.
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  74. Beat poets were on speed, I think. Or maybe not all of them.

    There’s a large segment of British rock referencing uppers. Motorhead, of course. The “Mod” scene was full of it. I think Roger Daltrey’s stuttering delivery in the Who’s My Generation mimicked speed-speak. The band Dexi’s Midnight Runners–of Come On Eileen fame–got their name from the drug Dexedrine.

    Breaking Bad is the Gold Standard of amphetamine drama. Probably none of the people who made it were on meth. I don’t know whether tweaking out would give you a fuller experience.

    I was only ever offered meth once (we called it “crystal” then), and that was in junior high. Not that I’m white trash. My school was middle-middle-class. But I had certain country connections, you might say.

    The girl who offered it was…sexually precocious, you might say. I don’t know how much she used or whether they’re all like that.

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  75. I’ve never used Adderall. I used some Dexedrine when I was *ahem*going through a rough patch. My friend gave it to me. He said it was nothing, just “housewife speed”. LOL (I just typed ‘hosewife’)

    After I tried it for the first time, I could not believe that this was what people used to keep themselves awake all night to study for exams! It gave me a feeling that was nothing short of euphoria. That people used it to cram for tests seemed almost disrespectful, like using Champagne to mop the floor!

    As far as music goes, I think you’ll like the same songs you always liked, just more so and in a different way.

    I was directing a play at the time (The Insect Play by Karel Capek) and I used a song by the Blues Project for the opening scene, where I had the insects all dancing together in the woods.

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  76. @flyingtiger
    The German blitzkrieg of 1939-1941 was the result of soldiers given speed. Some of these soldiers went insane. Panzergroup Pieper in the Ardennes in 1944 seems to have been wired. This explains some of their behavior.
    The US 8th Air Force was wired. One of the results of using speed is that you have to crash at some point. 8th AF missions were planned with this in mind.

    British troops used 72 million amphetamine tablets in the second world war[2] and the RAF used so many that “Methedrine won the Battle of Britain” according to one report.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alertness

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    • Replies: @Lurker
    I suspect that would apply more to long range, multi-hour, bombing missions (nights). The fear, panic and adrenaline would be enough to see a pilot through the brief flights, often measured in minutes, involved in the Battle of Britain (summer days).
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  77. @flyingtiger
    The German blitzkrieg of 1939-1941 was the result of soldiers given speed. Some of these soldiers went insane. Panzergroup Pieper in the Ardennes in 1944 seems to have been wired. This explains some of their behavior.
    The US 8th Air Force was wired. One of the results of using speed is that you have to crash at some point. 8th AF missions were planned with this in mind.

    Bear in mind, when they weren’t tweaking they were drunk. The Germans were free with the Schnapps, the British with the Scotch, and so on.

    And we wonder why they so often shot like Stormtroopers.

    (I know, I know, it’s really hard t kill people with rifles in battle. )

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  78. @James Bowery
    Overclocking

    Gregory Cochran



    There is a good chance that an odd cluster of hereditary neurological diseases among the Ashkenazi Jews is a side-effect of strong selection for increased intelligence. The idea is not really new, but the evidence has gotten stronger with time, and I have recently found some intriguing supporting data...

    https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/cochran/overclocking.html#Cochran

    The West has adopted the Jewish mindset without the Jewish genes that go with it.

    The West has adopted the Jewish mindset without the Jewish genes that go with it.

    Sometimes I wonder if the explosion in mental disorders is Goys mimicking Jewish neurotic behavior.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    To some degree--possibly a great degree--that may well be, as the romanticization of neuroticism in popular culture readily supplies both cause and effect.
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  79. @snorlax
    Good thing they didn't[?] contain any actual "molly" (MDMA) then, because there's no way you'd be in any state to be driving or that anyone sane would suggest them as a driving aid.

    PSA: Actual MDMA, if you can find it, is the one drug I recommend everyone try at least once. For best results take approx 175mg with 1-3 friends or friendly strangers who've taken the same amount, dim the lights, put on music (preferably loud with heavy bass and synthesizer), drink plenty of water and break out the glowsticks (or flashlights).

    For 30-45 minutes nothing will happen, then there will be a brief moment of nausea which is normal, then the next 3 hours will be an indescribably wonderful experience. The best way I can describe it is like having an hours-long orgasm with every inch of your body and all five senses, and even that doesn't quite give it justice (mostly because the feeling isn't sexual at all and in fact most people temporarily lose interest in sex).

    Simultaneously, you will lose all the insecurities and hangups that prevent you from communicating with other people. You will be able to air and mutually resolve uncomfortable subjects without any judgments or anger, even after it's worn off. You will realize important things about yourself. Your relationships with the people you took it with will be much closer than before.

    Just make sure you wait at least 2 weeks (really a month) before trying it again or you'll get very little effect followed by a killer hangover. (Which is why it has low potential for addiction). The social aspect is key; don't take it alone because you'll just get sad you have nobody to talk to, and don't take it around only sober people because you'll become convinced everyone knows you're on drugs and is mad at you.

    This is probably not the most receptive venue and I expect I'll get some mockery or condemnation in response, but really, don't knock it until you've tried it! I'm a respectable upper-middle-class professional, I just hung out a lot with the hippie crowd in college.

    It can be a beneficial experience but I’ve done it about eight times and never want to again.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Would be helpful if you'd explain why. Speaking as someone who never did (nor had access to) any of these drugs, frankly I'm a bit jealous.
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  80. @Anonymous
    You get about 4 good hours on Adderall. And then you crash. The crash can be mild but you might be pressed by a deadline and want to take another one. The 4 good hours might have been very productive, or you might have wasted time doing something else. Adderall helps you focus tremendously, but if you get sidetracked by something other than your pressing task, you can end up focusing on the distraction. This includes conversations with other people. You can become much more loquacious and articulate on Adderall and get absorbed in quite mundane and pointless conversations with other people. Anyway, so if you don't get your work done, then you pop another Adderall, which gets you another good 4 hours, but the crash is even greater after that. So you have to be careful and use it prudently. There's also an extended release version of Adderall that's milder and lasts longer.

    Or, you could split the dose of Adderall between the morning and the afternoon.

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  81. @Mr. Anon
    Nicotine has a stimulative effect with greatly focuses the mind. I wonder how much the world has lost with the decline of smoking. A lot of cancer to be sure, but also a lot of great work.

    Caffeine and sugar(Starbucks) are the poor substitute for those in somewhat mentally taxing jobs. High pressure jobs are where I see the more serious stimulants. Among the psychologically stressed lower class nicotine is used in conjunction with caffeine and sugar in a near continuous dose to cope.

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  82. @Anon
    There's a problem with this. Ashkenazi Jews went through a population bottleneck. Let's say you have a small cluster of high IQ individuals who went through that bottleneck along with another cluster of Jews who carry the genes for these diseases. The descendants of the people who went through the bottleneck will have a mix of both sets of genes, but this still doesn't mean that correlation equals causation. The genes might not have anything to do with producing high IQs.

    Do non-Jewish Askhenazi whites with high IQs have these diseases? I've never heard that they do to any particular degree. But if the same genes that make Askenazi Jews smart are the same genes that make non-Jewish high IQ whites smart, then how did the latter avoid the diseases? Unless there are entirely different sets of genes that can make different populations groups smart, I'm not sure there's any connection between these diseases and IQ.

    Disease causing mutations in ashkenazi Jews tend to be abnormalities in lipid metabolism. The specific genes involved may may also be important for nervous system development and function. There is at least one disease that is associated with high intelligence in patients (torsion dystonia) while carriers for some other diseases might have a higher than average IQ

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  83. @eddy wobegon
    Steve -- you have a typo:

    You wrote: ". . . handed them out to guys who needed to stay away to not die. "

    should be: " . . . handed them out to guys who needed to stay awake to not die. "

    Is your autospeller on Adderall?

    I used pot to find the problem.

    I used pot to find the problem.

    It always comes back to MotherNature don’t it??

    Phuck Pills.

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  84. That’s the best essay I read in 2017. I hope the Oxford essay collection takes a look at it.

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  85. @SimpleSong
    Surely this discussion wouldn't be complete without a mention of Paul Erdos and his benzedrine (an early prescription amphetamine) and ritalin. A very productive mathematician for many years (possibly the most productive ever) and used it until the very end of his life. Only break was when colleagues bet him he couldn't quit for a month. He was able to successfully stop for the month, but found his work suffered, and rued that mathematics had been set back by 1 month.

    I don't have an Erdos number but I'm sure someone in the commentariat here has a low one.

    I've never used amphetamines/ritalin/etc but I have found getting a good sleep, then moderate coffee gives me about four extremely productive hours, then a nap, then two more extremely productive hours, then sleep, is the best pattern overall. If I load up on coffee I can burn through 8 hours with only short breaks but I feel like I start to lose big-picture thinking/creativity.

    Yes, my Erdos number is 2 (consequence of my Conway number being 1).

    These drugs help some people more than others, but most people can benefit. Because I always had excellent concentration and stamina, I would probably not be helped much (though they would, I expect, at least reverse the small drop in those capacities I’ve experienced over the last 30 years). I guess they’d be the most useful if I was trying to prove an extremely difficult new theorem, but only if I had already gotten the ideas I needed and just needed to make it all work; before that stage, they might suppress my creativity. (Erdos was different, an ADD case for sure, the boost in his concentration was the more significant effect by far).

    Mathematicians I know have told me that they are more creative on pot or LSD. I haven’t tried them, but creativity is not where I need the most help. Probably the best use of speed for me would be to help me learn some hard areas of math I didn’t get around to in grad school.

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  86. “Brian Wilson whose foray into cocaine use in late 1966-1967 (before cocaine was again popular) led to a million ideas he could never finish (later PR’ed into being the “Smile” era), half of them sounding like the beyond twee “Games Two Can Play””

    This sort of mischaracterizes the whole Smile project. Contrary to the myth, most of those Smile songs were pretty traditionally structured – wind chimes, vegetables, wonderful, surfs up, etc. It was only after the success of Good Vibrations and its modular structure that Brian went back and tried to make the whole project modular, resulting in endless variations on Heroes and Villains and cannibalizing parts of other songs. Can’t Wait Too Long from the Wild Honey era would be an example of a flurry of ideas he couldn’t finish. However, most of the songs from Wild Honey are straight forward affairs. Indeed, it’s a little known fact that Brian successfully used the Smile modular recording techniques for the more “normal” songs on Wild Honey. I think I remember reading that the backing track for Darlin is stitched together from lots of 30 second long pieces, but I may be misremembering.

    Also not sure why you bring up Games Two Can Play, since I believe that was from the Sunflower era. I don’t know what Brian was on then, but I’d think it would be different from what he was taking a few years earlier. Anyway, Brian’s childish, “twee” streak had been there from the start and I’m not sure why you think this song characterizes the era. I’d point to something like Busy Doing Nothing as representing the quaint, unambitious (but surprisingly complex) side of Brian’s writing during that era rather than that one.

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  87. anon • Disclaimer says:

    People who do not have ADD don’t get it. The effect on those who CAN focus is different than the effect on those who cannot, so all y’all can take the idea that Adderall for people with ADD is like speed can go cram your own ignorance up your collective rectal orifice.

    For people with ADD, Adderall allows for the suppression of an ancient adaptive trait, scanning the horizon constantly for threats, that is maladaptive in an office environment. Note, I wrote suppress, not eliminate.

    Adderall does this by stimulating the central nervous system, mainly the pre-frontal cortex, and allowing the mind to direct itself to pay attention to what it has decided to pay attention to rather than to what the environment tells it to. It also allows the mind to break away from hyper-focus and to transition from one task to another.

    A better name for ADD would be Attention Management Disorder.

    For anybody without ADD, to use Adderall is to abuse the drug.

    This article is ignorant and destructive. Hope my comments help clarify.

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    • Disagree: ScarletNumber
    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Are there any modern environments (even office ones), occupations, professions, or tasks for which ADD is adaptive/advantageous?
    , @Jenner Ickham Errican

    go cram your own ignorance up your collective rectal orifice
     
    Sounds like you need a fix, dawg! Kreayshawn’s got the hookup. ;)

    Gnarly, radical, on the block I'm magical
    See me at your college campus, baggie full of Adderalls
    Call me if you need a fix, call me if you need a boost
    See them other chicken heads?
    They don't ever leave the coop
     
    https://youtu.be/6WJFjXtHcy4?t=43s
    , @guest
    "the idea that Adderall for people with ADD is like speed"

    It's not like speed, it is speed. Whether you have ADD or not (if ADD actually exists).

    "A better name for ADD would be Attention Management Disorder"

    No, the idea is that your attention is deficient. "Attention Management Disorder" might imply you're overmanaging your attention, which would be inaccurate.
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  88. @snorlax
    Good thing they didn't[?] contain any actual "molly" (MDMA) then, because there's no way you'd be in any state to be driving or that anyone sane would suggest them as a driving aid.

    PSA: Actual MDMA, if you can find it, is the one drug I recommend everyone try at least once. For best results take approx 175mg with 1-3 friends or friendly strangers who've taken the same amount, dim the lights, put on music (preferably loud with heavy bass and synthesizer), drink plenty of water and break out the glowsticks (or flashlights).

    For 30-45 minutes nothing will happen, then there will be a brief moment of nausea which is normal, then the next 3 hours will be an indescribably wonderful experience. The best way I can describe it is like having an hours-long orgasm with every inch of your body and all five senses, and even that doesn't quite give it justice (mostly because the feeling isn't sexual at all and in fact most people temporarily lose interest in sex).

    Simultaneously, you will lose all the insecurities and hangups that prevent you from communicating with other people. You will be able to air and mutually resolve uncomfortable subjects without any judgments or anger, even after it's worn off. You will realize important things about yourself. Your relationships with the people you took it with will be much closer than before.

    Just make sure you wait at least 2 weeks (really a month) before trying it again or you'll get very little effect followed by a killer hangover. (Which is why it has low potential for addiction). The social aspect is key; don't take it alone because you'll just get sad you have nobody to talk to, and don't take it around only sober people because you'll become convinced everyone knows you're on drugs and is mad at you.

    This is probably not the most receptive venue and I expect I'll get some mockery or condemnation in response, but really, don't knock it until you've tried it! I'm a respectable upper-middle-class professional, I just hung out a lot with the hippie crowd in college.

    Thanks for this.

    No judgment from me.

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  89. @bmccaf
    I graduated from a public university consistently ranked in the top 25 overall and top 3 among public universities last hear. That said, I don’t think the general population appreciates the ubiquity of adderall use in academia nowadays, especially at “prestigious” universities. To be frank, you’re at a disadvantage if you do NOT take adhd meds. During finals, my conservative estimate is that 75% of the student body takes advantage of them.

    They’re great for any STEM class, and incredibly useful for the long readings assigned in the humanities. Adderall, in my experience, isn’t great for writing papers (at least, you’ll want to take a second look with a sober brain. Run-on sentences, distracting and unnecessary tangents, and tiresome repetitiousness of the same point(s) are common, whether or not someone’s been diagnosed with ADHD.)

    Culturally, Kerouac and Philip K. Dick immediately spring to mind as writers whose most famous books were completed under the influence. The complexity and novel stylistic choices in “Infinite Jest” were infinitely more interesting with Adderall versus without it. I can’t say exactly which musical genres are the result of speed usage ( maybe experimental indie rock. The group Animal Collective springs to mind.) My appreciation of all music is greatly enhanced by Adderall.

    I’m probably in the minority here, but I think amphetamine (not METHamphetmines) should be available over-the-counter because they’re a fantastic tool if used responsibly. And maybe we can drop this whole charade of pretending ADHD is a real “disease”, rather than a symptom of present day way of life.

    Run-on sentences, distracting and unnecessary tangents, and tiresome repetitiousness of the same point(s) are common,

    Okay–I’m convinced. That other guy further upthread is right: several unz.com commenters are definitely on the stuff.

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  90. @AndrewR
    It can be a beneficial experience but I've done it about eight times and never want to again.

    Would be helpful if you’d explain why. Speaking as someone who never did (nor had access to) any of these drugs, frankly I’m a bit jealous.

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    • Replies: @AndrewR
    Why it can be good? It's as close as most people can get to an ego-dissolving experience without moving to Bhutan and becoming a monk.

    Why did I get sick of it? I'm not sure. I guess for the same reason I get sick of most things I try. Variety is the spice of life.
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  91. @Lugash
    The West has adopted the Jewish mindset without the Jewish genes that go with it.

    Sometimes I wonder if the explosion in mental disorders is Goys mimicking Jewish neurotic behavior.

    To some degree–possibly a great degree–that may well be, as the romanticization of neuroticism in popular culture readily supplies both cause and effect.

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  92. @Anon
    Getting a full night's sleep, eating properly, and adding moderate exercise is still the best formula. Frankly, if you're not creative without drugs or alcohol, you were not meant to do creative work. Creative people don't need enhancers.

    Mom, how on earth did you find me here?

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  93. @JMcG
    I love Motörhead.

    me too.

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  94. @Mr. Anon
    Nicotine has a stimulative effect with greatly focuses the mind. I wonder how much the world has lost with the decline of smoking. A lot of cancer to be sure, but also a lot of great work.

    Agree.

    Is it coincidental that the decline in smoking runs parallel to the rise in opiate addiction? In addition to focus and stimulation, it also relieves pain and soothes the nerves.

    I also wonder how many mistakes in the workplace are due to nicotine withdrawal; specifically, air traffic controllers sitting there twitching and jonesing for a butt.

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    • Replies: @Thea
    Plausible.
    I suspect the decline in smoking lead to our obesity problem.
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  95. “The human brain wasn’t built for accounting or software engineering. A few lucky people can do these things ten hours a day, every day, with a smile. The rest of us start fidgeting and checking our cell phone somewhere around the thirty minute mark.”

    I’ve often thought that this describes cubicle life in general-not just for software engineers and accounting (as does Dilbert). When I was a cubicle dweller (in government service, which I had thought was unusually low-pressure), I found that 1) I was able to get my proscribed work done in far less than 8 hours, and 2) I spent my ‘extra’ time surfing the internet and idling. Everybody did.

    However, talking to other, private sector cubicle dwellers (from reasonably high-end engineering to graphic design and traditional business), I learned that everybody does that. Coffee breaks, chit chat, and irrelevance seem to be standard behavior in the working world. Work, other than during brief deadline-induced crises, is pretty easy.

    I often wondered how large organizations could do it-could pay people to do essentially 4 (or less) hours of productive work in an 8 hour day. I also thought that genuinely successful individuals were those who could focus, and actually be productive, their full 8 hours. The rest of us stumble through profissional life getting a little bit done in between unnecessary meetings, the Drudge Report, coffee breaks, and flirting.

    I assume that, when we talk about the increase in production caused by technological progress, THAT is where the extra is going-not in reducing our work days (to 6 or 4 hours) but in allowing us to goof off while at work. We still spend 8 hours a day at work-we just produce less while there. Robots in the factory floor, industrial-scale farming, and computer efficiency allow us to do so.

    joe

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    Yes, that's an interesting response to Keynes' notorious prediction of a 15 hour work week.
    , @guest
    "seem to be standard behavior in the working world"

    Yes, that's why people can relate to the movie Office Space. An extra wrinkle is that human beings don't want to work if they don't have to, which was also part of the point of that movie. The main character decides he's going to do nothing, like a lazy version of Bartelby the Scrivener.

    Of course, human beings don't actually want to do nothing. That guy ends up working construction, where at least he gets physical activity and a chance to be outdoors. Almost no one is fulfilled by cubicle work.

    "allow us to do so"

    "Us" being the ones who can get jobs. Meanwhile, robots actually eliminate jobs. Which frees people up to work other jobs, if they're invented. Which has happened over the course of the various "revolutions," but with that stubborn old I.Q. thing may have a limit.

    Unless the losers all serve the lucky ones who get cubicles. But there is a planet full of brown people for that. And we're all supposed to be free and self-supporting. There's no noblesse oblige to take care of a servant class, and very few freeholders actually supporting themselves. Only the state to take care of everyone.
    , @Lars Porsena
    Are you implying I am not working right now? How dare you imply that I am not working right now.
    , @Anonymous
    Your experience of the working world in the private sector (which you admit is composed of hearsay) is diametrically opposed to mine, which is composed of experience. Just FWIW of course.
    , @Travis
    increased productivity has allowed many firms to reduce the numbers of workers by 50% and still increase production over the last 25 years. In my career as a Trader on wall street we experienced a huge increase in productivity which resulted in a 90% reduction of workers while the amount of shares traded rose tenfold...back in the 90s most trading of NASDAQ equities occurred over the phone...as a market maker we were on the phone , non-stop from 9:30 AM until 4:00 , lunch was delivered to us on our desk, and we ate while trading...

    by 1999 more of the NASDAQ trading was now being done electronically, yet 50% of the trading still was done via telephone...When Goldman Sachs bought us in 2001 we had about 2,000 employees, about 400 working on the NYSE floor and another 500 trading NASDAQ stocks upstairs...joining the 600 Goldman upstairs traders....Goldman had no presence on the NYSE floor until they acquired us. Now with computers and algorithms the number of traders has declined by 80%......instead of 1,200 upstairs NASDAQ traders at Goldman, they have just 300 left.....it also effected our clients. back in 2004 a large hedge fund may have had 30 equity traders, by 2015 they only required 5 as the algorithms helped reduce the required number of traders, a trader could now trade more stocks, more efficiently via the use of altos and no longer needed to make calls to traders to buy and sell large positions...

    The American Stock Exchange, no longer exists in physical form....thousands of traders and clerks worked there....no longer. Same with the NY Mercantile Exchange, which was the focus of the climatic scene in Trading Places....all those traders lost their jobs due to computers, and now trading is much less costly and anyone can participate from their basements at home via the internet...The NYSE floor once employed thousands , yet today just a few hundred work on the floor, placed their for entertainment value..The Big Board is now little more than a Big Tent for a phony media circus of photo-ops and cable-news talking heads. Increased productivity resulted in the loss of thousands of trading jobs, replaced by computers and algorithms which are far more efficient than people.
    , @stillCARealist
    The full time jobs I've had track pretty closely with your experience. Part time jobs are continuous work, like what I do now. I go into the office and get to work immediately and I leave when the work is done. Takes anywhere from 2 to 3 hours.

    Restaurant service jobs are continuous work, but mostly part time.
    , @ScarletNumber
    The toughest part about being a teacher is that when they are at work, they are always on. That's why they need so much time off.
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  96. @anon
    People who do not have ADD don't get it. The effect on those who CAN focus is different than the effect on those who cannot, so all y'all can take the idea that Adderall for people with ADD is like speed can go cram your own ignorance up your collective rectal orifice.

    For people with ADD, Adderall allows for the suppression of an ancient adaptive trait, scanning the horizon constantly for threats, that is maladaptive in an office environment. Note, I wrote suppress, not eliminate.

    Adderall does this by stimulating the central nervous system, mainly the pre-frontal cortex, and allowing the mind to direct itself to pay attention to what it has decided to pay attention to rather than to what the environment tells it to. It also allows the mind to break away from hyper-focus and to transition from one task to another.

    A better name for ADD would be Attention Management Disorder.

    For anybody without ADD, to use Adderall is to abuse the drug.

    This article is ignorant and destructive. Hope my comments help clarify.

    Are there any modern environments (even office ones), occupations, professions, or tasks for which ADD is adaptive/advantageous?

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    • Replies: @william munny
    I have "it," based on symptoms that would place me on the far right of the ADD side of the bell curve, and because there is no real "it." ADD is diagnosed based on the existence of symptoms, including based on observations by teachers, so the diagnosis is incredibly flawed. If you can learn to harness it, it can be very advantageous in many fields. People with ADD can be incredibly hyperfocused on a task they are interested in, to the point of excluding everything else, even eating or drinking, until it is completed. That can work well in white-collar professions with deadlines. But procrastination, lack of interest, and distractability interfere constantly, and to other people it looks like the person is distracted from doing other things, rather than focused on doing one thing.

    Adults learn to manage it much better than children, who have a lot of difficulty in school. ADD is most obvious in kids who aren't that bright or are uninterested in school. The smart kids can learn to hyperfocus on schoolwork, and their parents complain they don't do anything else. But if you throw those non-academic kids into something they really like, like sports, games, or some nerdy thing, they can focus forever, to the exclusion of everything else.
    , @Jonathan Mason

    Are there any modern environments (even office ones), occupations, professions, or tasks for which ADD is adaptive/advantageous?
     
    I would think not, because there is no definitive diagnostic test for ADD, except an inability to function or complete tasks in a setting where it is desirable to function. For correct diagnosis various other possibilities must be excluded such as a metabolic dysfunction, brain damage, toxicity (for example lead poisoning), neurosyphilis, and then if all findings are negative you are left with ADD which is supposed to be a manifestation of undetectable brain malfunction, possibly acquired during gestation or around the time of birth.

    The hardest diagnosis is differentiating between ADD and common or garden stupidity or lack of home training.

    For a diagnosis of ADD the symptoms must be present for at least 6 months and in more than one setting (so not only in school, but never at home).

    It is tempting to say that ADD is just a hoax, but of course in a class full of kids an experienced teacher can fairly easily determine that a kid is not playing with a full deck, and if a kid is unable to function normally in a school setting, there must be SOMETHING wrong, even if we don't know the real cause.
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  97. “Are certain kinds of music or movies or books more likely to have been made and appreciated by somebody on speed?”

    Early Who (and punk) records? The later works of Nick Land?

    Must say I had no idea doctors were prescribing speed for ADHD.

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  98. @joeyjoejoe
    "The human brain wasn’t built for accounting or software engineering. A few lucky people can do these things ten hours a day, every day, with a smile. The rest of us start fidgeting and checking our cell phone somewhere around the thirty minute mark."


    I've often thought that this describes cubicle life in general-not just for software engineers and accounting (as does Dilbert). When I was a cubicle dweller (in government service, which I had thought was unusually low-pressure), I found that 1) I was able to get my proscribed work done in far less than 8 hours, and 2) I spent my 'extra' time surfing the internet and idling. Everybody did.

    However, talking to other, private sector cubicle dwellers (from reasonably high-end engineering to graphic design and traditional business), I learned that everybody does that. Coffee breaks, chit chat, and irrelevance seem to be standard behavior in the working world. Work, other than during brief deadline-induced crises, is pretty easy.

    I often wondered how large organizations could do it-could pay people to do essentially 4 (or less) hours of productive work in an 8 hour day. I also thought that genuinely successful individuals were those who could focus, and actually be productive, their full 8 hours. The rest of us stumble through profissional life getting a little bit done in between unnecessary meetings, the Drudge Report, coffee breaks, and flirting.

    I assume that, when we talk about the increase in production caused by technological progress, THAT is where the extra is going-not in reducing our work days (to 6 or 4 hours) but in allowing us to goof off while at work. We still spend 8 hours a day at work-we just produce less while there. Robots in the factory floor, industrial-scale farming, and computer efficiency allow us to do so.

    joe

    Yes, that’s an interesting response to Keynes’ notorious prediction of a 15 hour work week.

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  99. “Here comes the Nice
    Looking so good
    He makes me feel like no one else could
    He knows what I want
    He’s got what I need
    He’s always there
    When I need some speed”

    Steve Marriott was a great white soul singer.

    A year or so later (note the hippyish gear they’re wearing) it was LSD and “Itchycoo Park”.

    On topic, the ability to code for 12 hours non-stop definitely declines with age. It becomes pointless after about 11 hours (probably less by now, not had to do it for a few years), as anything else you write you’re likely to scrap the following morning.

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    • Replies: @anonymous-antimarxist

    On topic, the ability to code for 12 hours non-stop definitely declines with age. It becomes pointless after about 11 hours (probably less by now, not had to do it for a few years), as anything else you write you’re likely to scrap the following morning.
     
    I wonder if much of the demand for Adderall is due to the "open office" floor plans. I found myself having to wear earplugs and noise canceling headphone. A brief lunch time walk in the sun was also essential if I was seated close to a window. The 20-30 minutes of sunlight helped to improve concentration. I also found that when possible turning down the fluorescent lighting helped. Also I would avoid carbohydrates until late in the afternoon to avoid 2:00 "food coma".

    No programmer can code effectively for more than 4-5 hours a day over the long haul. However brief periods of sustained effort are possible. The problem with most corporate environments that it is impossible to establish unbroken periods of "flow time" of more than an hour or two where concentration occurs with minimal effort.
    , @Daniel H
    >>A year or so later (note the hippyish gear they’re wearing) it was LSD and “Itchycoo Park”.

    Whatever foolish looking hippy clothes British rock bands were wearing in 66-67 was aesthetically years beyond the t-shirts, blue jeans, ultra long hair, (sweat, grime, beer and cigarette) scent that all Brit bands adopted around 1969 and many have maintained to this day.
    , @yaqub the mad scientist
    Three years later he was back to meth and coke blowing out his voice with Humble Pie. Love or hate it, his intensity was off the charts.
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  100. @Travis
    Amphetamine use among players has been common for 60 years. They were not banned until 2007. Estimates of how many players used them have been as high as 85 percent. "Greenies" (Dexedrine) were a club house staple for decades beginning just after World War II, when ball players drafted into the military returned to the diamond having been exposed to the stimulant pills, which the armed forces dispensed by the millions.

    Amphetamines "have been around the game forever," the Hall of Famer Mike Schmidt wrote in his book, "Clearing the Bases,"... "In my day, they were widely available in major-league clubhouses."

    That Major League Baseball chooses to act against amphetamines in 2006 is farcical. You almost have to cover your face when you snicker at the thought....Schmidt stated that the elimination of amphetamines could have "possibly far greater implications for the game than the crackdown against steroids."..... "amphetamine use in baseball is both far more common and has been going on a lot longer than steroid abuse."

    Even more ridiculous is how they allow players to work around these problems when their personal doctor attests that they have ADD or a testosterone deficiency, so need prescription drugs to remedy it. A-Rod was allowed to do so, but still abused it. MLB keeps the list secret because of HIPAA and all. Sure. Gymnast Simone Biles “has” ADD. How many other American athletes take drugs while claiming that the Russians and everyone else are cheats? A growing number of cops and corrections officers I know get treated for their supposed lack of testosterone by cop-friendly doctors too.

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    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
    The good news is that Biles isn't cheating by being prescribed performance enhancing drugs which would otherwise be illegal for an athlete to take.

    No, she's a brave American "taking a stand against ADHD stigma".

    http://www.espn.com/espnw/voices/article/17602540/bravo-simone-biles-taking-stand-adhd-stigma

    "Biles isn't the only high achiever with the condition; a host of other highly decorated Olympians, including swimmer Michael Phelps, hockey player Cammi Granato and Michelle Carter, an American who won gold in the women's shot put in Rio, also have ADHD.

    The leaked medical records revealed that Biles takes Ritalin, a stimulant commonly used to treat ADHD. The hackers accused her of using an "illicit psycho-stimulant" while competing, but USA Gymnastics confirmed that Biles had been approved for a therapeutic-use exemption. "
     
    The incentive for athletes to be diagnosed with ADHD (then being able legally to take banned stimulants) is enormous.
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  101. @Opinionator
    Are there any modern environments (even office ones), occupations, professions, or tasks for which ADD is adaptive/advantageous?

    I have “it,” based on symptoms that would place me on the far right of the ADD side of the bell curve, and because there is no real “it.” ADD is diagnosed based on the existence of symptoms, including based on observations by teachers, so the diagnosis is incredibly flawed. If you can learn to harness it, it can be very advantageous in many fields. People with ADD can be incredibly hyperfocused on a task they are interested in, to the point of excluding everything else, even eating or drinking, until it is completed. That can work well in white-collar professions with deadlines. But procrastination, lack of interest, and distractability interfere constantly, and to other people it looks like the person is distracted from doing other things, rather than focused on doing one thing.

    Adults learn to manage it much better than children, who have a lot of difficulty in school. ADD is most obvious in kids who aren’t that bright or are uninterested in school. The smart kids can learn to hyperfocus on schoolwork, and their parents complain they don’t do anything else. But if you throw those non-academic kids into something they really like, like sports, games, or some nerdy thing, they can focus forever, to the exclusion of everything else.

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    • Agree: BB753
    • Replies: @al-Gharaniq
    The most debilitating—and obvious—ADHD symptoms seem to be issues with socializing, forming friendships, making inappropriate remarks, etc. Generally speaking, people who have ADHD tend to be "weird," especially as kids, sometimes as adults depending on how well they've adapted, but some things will stand out. Once on stimulant therapy, they'll act more "normal" (in terms of socialization), which is honestly the best benefit. You won't see this in people without ADHD.

    As to the benefits (or well, advantages), "non-linear" vs. "linear" thought, the former of which excels at generating new ideas by connecting seemingly unrelated things—thus, the constant distractions. For following through on them, however, "linear" thought is much more effective and consistent. I can see how in prehistoric times being able to spot possible dangers or think of a novel, but easily executable, ideas would be advantageous. Same goes for flouting social norms when a social structure isn't rigid or established.
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  102. @Hodag
    Motorhead. You get Motorhead on speed.

    If you’d have taken some speed to concentrate before writing, you’d have remembered it is “Motörhead.”

    Concentration is about attention to details, damn it!

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    • Replies: @Lurker
    I'm pretty sure Lemmy said speed was the only drug that really delivered. I think he'd tried them all. He was really anti heroin though.
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  103. @DeanAmine
    Ayn Rand wrote Atlas Shrugged on speed https://www.reddit.com/r/Drugs/comments/1iwa6m/ayn_rand_talks_about_drugs_1980_i_took_fifteen/

    You do realize, don’t you, DeanAmine, that what you cite is a humor column. This claim by “Ayn Rand” seems particularly implausible:
    “Then the inside of my head began to sound like a jet engine and so I went to the bathroom. I took maybe ten more speed pills and sat in a stall and wrote a new chapter of “Atlas Shrugged.” Perhaps twenty-five thousand words, all on toilet paper. I cannot include these words in a new edition, alas, because I did not write them so much as encode them on the toilet paper by biting it.”

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    • Replies: @Pericles

    Perhaps twenty-five thousand words, all on toilet paper.

     

    On The Road ...
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  104. @Anonymous
    Would be helpful if you'd explain why. Speaking as someone who never did (nor had access to) any of these drugs, frankly I'm a bit jealous.

    Why it can be good? It’s as close as most people can get to an ego-dissolving experience without moving to Bhutan and becoming a monk.

    Why did I get sick of it? I’m not sure. I guess for the same reason I get sick of most things I try. Variety is the spice of life.

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    • Replies: @guest
    "It's as close as most people can get to an ego-dissolving experience"

    What about sleep or being out in nature? Or simply shutting up? Which are cheap, by the way.

    Such things may not actually dissolve your ego, but I have a feeling that's a meaningless phrase.

    Why would you want to do that, anyway? God gave you your ego.
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  105. @syonredux

    But what kind of changes are there due to speed? Are certain kinds of music or movies or books more likely to have been made and appreciated by somebody on speed?
     
    Based on these examples, I would say that it just amplifies what's already there:

    The poet W.H. Auden is probably the most famous example. He took a dose of Benzedrine (a brand name of amphetamine introduced in the United States in 1933) each morning the way many people take a daily multivitamin. At night, he used Seconal or another sedative to get to sleep. He continued this routine—“the chemical life,” he called it—for 20 years, until the efficacy of the pills finally wore off. Auden regarded amphetamines as one of the “labor-saving devices” in the “mental kitchen,” alongside alcohol, coffee, and tobacco—although he was well aware that “these mechanisms are very crude, liable to injure the cook, and constantly breaking down.”
     

    Graham Greene had a similarly pragmatic approach to amphetamines. In 1939, while laboring on what he was certain would be his greatest novel, The Power and the Glory, Greene decided to also write one of his “entertainments”—melodramatic thrillers that lacked artistry but that he knew would make money. He worked on both books simultaneously, devoting his mornings to the thriller The Confidential Agent and his afternoons to The Power and the Glory. To keep it up, he took Benzedrine tablets twice daily, one upon waking and the other at midday. As a result he was able to write 2,000 words in the mornings alone, as opposed to his usual 500. After only six weeks, The Confidential Agent was completed and on its way to being published. (The Power and the Glory took four more months.)
     

    Greene soon stopped taking the drug; not all writers had such self-control. In 1942 Ayn Rand took up Benzedrine to help her finish her novel, The Fountainhead.* She had spent years planning and composing the first third of the novel; over the next 12 months, thanks to the new pills, she averaged a chapter a week. But the drug quickly became a crutch. Rand would continue to use amphetamines for the next three decades, even as her overuse led to mood swings, irritability, emotional outbursts, and paranoia—traits Rand was susceptible to even without drugs.

     


    Jean-Paul Sartre was similarly dependent. In the 1950s, already exhausted from too much work on too little sleep—plus too much wine and cigarettes—the philosopher turned to Corydrane, a mix of amphetamine and aspirin then fashionable among Parisian students, intellectuals, and artists. The prescribed dose was one or two tablets in the morning and at noon. Sartre took 20 a day, beginning with his morning coffee, and slowly chewed one pill after another as he worked. For each tablet, he could produce a page or two of his second major philosophical work, The Critique of Dialectical Reason.

     

    http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/features/2013/daily_rituals/auden_sartre_graham_greene_ayn_rand_they_loved_amphetamines.html

    her overuse led to mood swings, irritability, emotional outbursts, and paranoia—traits Rand was susceptible to even without drugs.

    Well, that’s rather anti-semitic.

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  106. @Mr. Anon
    Nicotine has a stimulative effect with greatly focuses the mind. I wonder how much the world has lost with the decline of smoking. A lot of cancer to be sure, but also a lot of great work.

    It is a pity that nicotine appears injurious to the blood vessels in and of itself. Otherwise I might get myself some gum

    This will not be about life expectancy, but life quality. Consider the consequences, if, your erection isn’t as good, your brain can’t receive an increased blood supply, not to mention your other organs, muscles, etc

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  107. @justwonderingaboutbaseball
    Cocaine&Uppers were always the secret ingredient to the hippie rock stars-

    Contrary to popular opinion, Sgt.Pepper's was peak-cocaine for Paul McCartney's Beatles career- that was a cocaine&pot album. [see: Joe Goodden’s Riding So High: The Beatles and Drugs (2017).]

    At the same time, the cocaine&lsd/pot&amphetamine formula led to the mental crackup of McCartney's main pop rival, the superior but more unstable Brian Wilson whose foray into cocaine use in late 1966-1967 (before cocaine was again popular) led to a million ideas he could never finish (later PR'ed into being the "Smile" era), half of them sounding like the beyond twee "Games Two Can Play" (think Lovely Rita/Maxwell's Silver Hammer with MORE cocaine); lifelong addiction issues; paranoia and other latent mental problems coming to the surface.

    There is a point where you are playing with fire.

    There was also Syd Barrett of Pink Floyd. Sad case, even worse if this is true (from wikipedia):

    Other friends assert that Barrett’s infamous flatmates, “Mad Jock” and “Mad Sue,” believed that acid held all the answers and thought of Barrett as a genius or “god,” and were spiking his morning coffee with LSD every day without his knowledge, leaving him in a never-ending trip.

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  108. @Opinionator

    Meanwhile, Adderall works for people whether they “have” “ADHD” or not. It may work better for people with ADHD – a lot of them report an almost “magical” effect – but it works at least a little for most people. There is a vast literature trying to disprove this. Its main strategy is to show Adderall doesn’t enhance cognition in healthy people. Fine. But mostly it doesn’t enhance cognition in people with ADHD either. People aren’t using Adderall to get smart, they’re using it to focus.
     
    Is it even possible clearly to distinguish between "cognition" and "focus"? If enhanced "focus" translates to improved performance on cognitive tasks, how is that not an enhancement of "cognition"?

    Effectively, perhaps.

    But it is the old standby of smartness vs alertness. Consider that a “smart” person can be tired, or drunk.

    I like to use the example of animals; say, a cat, or a dog. Now, we can take a dog and put him on amphetamines, assuming dogs have much the same response as we do: give them all the energy in the world, but they will only ever be as smart as a dog

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  109. @Mark Spahn (West Seneca, NY)
    You do realize, don't you, DeanAmine, that what you cite is a humor column. This claim by "Ayn Rand" seems particularly implausible:
    "Then the inside of my head began to sound like a jet engine and so I went to the bathroom. I took maybe ten more speed pills and sat in a stall and wrote a new chapter of “Atlas Shrugged.” Perhaps twenty-five thousand words, all on toilet paper. I cannot include these words in a new edition, alas, because I did not write them so much as encode them on the toilet paper by biting it."

    Perhaps twenty-five thousand words, all on toilet paper.

    On The Road

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  110. Are certain kinds of music or movies or books more likely to have been made and appreciated by somebody on speed?

    Certain people got tenure because of it.

    Perhaps speed thus influenced theoretical physics into its long, long detour into string theory. But it’s very interesting! If we just work on it some more!

    Regarding other academic subjects under the influence, the dark horse candidate is Economics.

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  111. @snorlax
    Good thing they didn't[?] contain any actual "molly" (MDMA) then, because there's no way you'd be in any state to be driving or that anyone sane would suggest them as a driving aid.

    PSA: Actual MDMA, if you can find it, is the one drug I recommend everyone try at least once. For best results take approx 175mg with 1-3 friends or friendly strangers who've taken the same amount, dim the lights, put on music (preferably loud with heavy bass and synthesizer), drink plenty of water and break out the glowsticks (or flashlights).

    For 30-45 minutes nothing will happen, then there will be a brief moment of nausea which is normal, then the next 3 hours will be an indescribably wonderful experience. The best way I can describe it is like having an hours-long orgasm with every inch of your body and all five senses, and even that doesn't quite give it justice (mostly because the feeling isn't sexual at all and in fact most people temporarily lose interest in sex).

    Simultaneously, you will lose all the insecurities and hangups that prevent you from communicating with other people. You will be able to air and mutually resolve uncomfortable subjects without any judgments or anger, even after it's worn off. You will realize important things about yourself. Your relationships with the people you took it with will be much closer than before.

    Just make sure you wait at least 2 weeks (really a month) before trying it again or you'll get very little effect followed by a killer hangover. (Which is why it has low potential for addiction). The social aspect is key; don't take it alone because you'll just get sad you have nobody to talk to, and don't take it around only sober people because you'll become convinced everyone knows you're on drugs and is mad at you.

    This is probably not the most receptive venue and I expect I'll get some mockery or condemnation in response, but really, don't knock it until you've tried it! I'm a respectable upper-middle-class professional, I just hung out a lot with the hippie crowd in college.

    Sounds a bit like LSD-using advice from the 70s.

    But on some occasions the street variety can kill you, ne c’est pas? Or are all those grieving parents in the papers talking nonsense? (A friend’s 15 year old son took ‘E’ and she spent an unpleasant 24 hours at his hospital bedside after he collapsed in the street. It may be that alcohol was also involved.)

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    • Replies: @Lars Porsena
    Honestly, it is usually something like, guy bought 6 pills for himself and 3 friends. Guy he bought them from told him take 1/2 to start, if you like it take the other half. If you really want to blow your mind take 2, but no more than that. The dealer didn't say 3 is safe but it's probably safe. So he took half, he liked it, took the other 5, OD.
    , @anonitron1
    Most ecstasy and MDMA deaths you read about are the result of dehydration. Dumb teenager takes more than generally recommended and proceeds to drink nothing but hard liquor during seven hours of raving. Boom, desiccated corpse.

    I've taken molly a handful of times and it's always hit me like slightly edgier adderall (don't take uppers all the time if you don't want to grind your teeth to dust). But then I've taken mushrooms and that resulted in nothing more than a mildly amusing afternoon, so maybe I'm just psychologically inert.
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  112. @Mr. Anon
    Nicotine has a stimulative effect with greatly focuses the mind. I wonder how much the world has lost with the decline of smoking. A lot of cancer to be sure, but also a lot of great work.

    I heard an interview with a writer who spent a year trying various approaches to see if any would increase his IQ: long-distance running, learning to play a musical instrument, learning a foreign language, etc. At the end of his year-long experiment, he concluded that the only thing that measurably helped was wearing a nicotine patch.

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  113. @anon
    People who do not have ADD don't get it. The effect on those who CAN focus is different than the effect on those who cannot, so all y'all can take the idea that Adderall for people with ADD is like speed can go cram your own ignorance up your collective rectal orifice.

    For people with ADD, Adderall allows for the suppression of an ancient adaptive trait, scanning the horizon constantly for threats, that is maladaptive in an office environment. Note, I wrote suppress, not eliminate.

    Adderall does this by stimulating the central nervous system, mainly the pre-frontal cortex, and allowing the mind to direct itself to pay attention to what it has decided to pay attention to rather than to what the environment tells it to. It also allows the mind to break away from hyper-focus and to transition from one task to another.

    A better name for ADD would be Attention Management Disorder.

    For anybody without ADD, to use Adderall is to abuse the drug.

    This article is ignorant and destructive. Hope my comments help clarify.

    go cram your own ignorance up your collective rectal orifice

    Sounds like you need a fix, dawg! Kreayshawn’s got the hookup. ;)

    Gnarly, radical, on the block I’m magical
    See me at your college campus, baggie full of Adderalls
    Call me if you need a fix, call me if you need a boost
    See them other chicken heads?
    They don’t ever leave the coop

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    • Replies: @jim jones
    60 million views - damn.
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  114. Adderall really is a wonder drug. In college the few times I really needed to study hard for an exam it allowed me to focus for 4-6 hours straight. Now working in public accounting numerous colleagues take it, most of whom are likely not really afflicted with ADHD. I often joke when our “busy season” rolls around we should have a bucket available in the kitchen for all employees. I know it’s not physically addictive, but I have never wanted to get a prescription due to the fear I would become accustomed to it and be unable to work effectively without assistance.

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  115. PED’s are overrated. They’re a crutch for mediocre people who probably shouldn’t even be studying STEM or anything technical for that matter. If Redbull or a jug of coffee can’t do it for ya, find another occupation.

    Use PED”s for SAT, maybe they work but realize as soon as you go off them, you’re still a hack and doofus.

    Consider this: We went to the Moon with technology largely developed from guys using Slide Rules and blueprints done by hand. Our Space Shuttle, the same thing.

    Now look at the Space Program today with all these bright kids with their desktop super computers, 3D CAD systems, materials science that is way beyond what the Apollo designers could ever dream of. And what have they accomplished? Nothing that wasn’t don’t 70 years ago and they still can’t take us to the Moon. It’s a joke.

    The point is, we already have all sorts of “crutches” in the form of tools. It still can’t turn a sows ear into a silk purse.

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  116. @snorlax
    Good thing they didn't[?] contain any actual "molly" (MDMA) then, because there's no way you'd be in any state to be driving or that anyone sane would suggest them as a driving aid.

    PSA: Actual MDMA, if you can find it, is the one drug I recommend everyone try at least once. For best results take approx 175mg with 1-3 friends or friendly strangers who've taken the same amount, dim the lights, put on music (preferably loud with heavy bass and synthesizer), drink plenty of water and break out the glowsticks (or flashlights).

    For 30-45 minutes nothing will happen, then there will be a brief moment of nausea which is normal, then the next 3 hours will be an indescribably wonderful experience. The best way I can describe it is like having an hours-long orgasm with every inch of your body and all five senses, and even that doesn't quite give it justice (mostly because the feeling isn't sexual at all and in fact most people temporarily lose interest in sex).

    Simultaneously, you will lose all the insecurities and hangups that prevent you from communicating with other people. You will be able to air and mutually resolve uncomfortable subjects without any judgments or anger, even after it's worn off. You will realize important things about yourself. Your relationships with the people you took it with will be much closer than before.

    Just make sure you wait at least 2 weeks (really a month) before trying it again or you'll get very little effect followed by a killer hangover. (Which is why it has low potential for addiction). The social aspect is key; don't take it alone because you'll just get sad you have nobody to talk to, and don't take it around only sober people because you'll become convinced everyone knows you're on drugs and is mad at you.

    This is probably not the most receptive venue and I expect I'll get some mockery or condemnation in response, but really, don't knock it until you've tried it! I'm a respectable upper-middle-class professional, I just hung out a lot with the hippie crowd in college.

    I’m on board with Stebbing. Good comment and thanks for the insight. Never tried it myself, but your description of the framing sounds similar to that for a pleasant Acid trip. (Except we tried to do it outdoors, like on a wild sand dune along Lake Michigan.)

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  117. @Bernardista
    Agree.

    Is it coincidental that the decline in smoking runs parallel to the rise in opiate addiction? In addition to focus and stimulation, it also relieves pain and soothes the nerves.

    I also wonder how many mistakes in the workplace are due to nicotine withdrawal; specifically, air traffic controllers sitting there twitching and jonesing for a butt.

    Plausible.
    I suspect the decline in smoking lead to our obesity problem.

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  118. Maybe speed withdrawal played a role in Stalingrad after the Germans couldn’t resupply.

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  119. @william munny
    Even more ridiculous is how they allow players to work around these problems when their personal doctor attests that they have ADD or a testosterone deficiency, so need prescription drugs to remedy it. A-Rod was allowed to do so, but still abused it. MLB keeps the list secret because of HIPAA and all. Sure. Gymnast Simone Biles "has" ADD. How many other American athletes take drugs while claiming that the Russians and everyone else are cheats? A growing number of cops and corrections officers I know get treated for their supposed lack of testosterone by cop-friendly doctors too.

    The good news is that Biles isn’t cheating by being prescribed performance enhancing drugs which would otherwise be illegal for an athlete to take.

    No, she’s a brave American “taking a stand against ADHD stigma”.

    http://www.espn.com/espnw/voices/article/17602540/bravo-simone-biles-taking-stand-adhd-stigma

    “Biles isn’t the only high achiever with the condition; a host of other highly decorated Olympians, including swimmer Michael Phelps, hockey player Cammi Granato and Michelle Carter, an American who won gold in the women’s shot put in Rio, also have ADHD.

    The leaked medical records revealed that Biles takes Ritalin, a stimulant commonly used to treat ADHD. The hackers accused her of using an “illicit psycho-stimulant” while competing, but USA Gymnastics confirmed that Biles had been approved for a therapeutic-use exemption. ”

    The incentive for athletes to be diagnosed with ADHD (then being able legally to take banned stimulants) is enormous.

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    • Replies: @Pericles

    The incentive for athletes to be diagnosed with ADHD (then being able legally to take banned stimulants) is enormous.

     

    In the same vein, a surprising number of asthmatics have become top performers in their chosen discipline. For instance, four time Tour de France winner Chris Froome.
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  120. @Anon
    There's a problem with this. Ashkenazi Jews went through a population bottleneck. Let's say you have a small cluster of high IQ individuals who went through that bottleneck along with another cluster of Jews who carry the genes for these diseases. The descendants of the people who went through the bottleneck will have a mix of both sets of genes, but this still doesn't mean that correlation equals causation. The genes might not have anything to do with producing high IQs.

    Do non-Jewish Askhenazi whites with high IQs have these diseases? I've never heard that they do to any particular degree. But if the same genes that make Askenazi Jews smart are the same genes that make non-Jewish high IQ whites smart, then how did the latter avoid the diseases? Unless there are entirely different sets of genes that can make different populations groups smart, I'm not sure there's any connection between these diseases and IQ.

    The speculation is that these alleles boost intelligence in a heterozygous state, but cause disease in a homozygous state. Thus they can become fixed in a population–pretty much the same pattern we see with sickle cell anemia and malaria resistance.

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  121. President John F Kennedy’s regular amphetamine use is documented here:

    http://thejns.org/doi/full/10.3171/2017.2.SPINE151524

    John F. Kennedy’s back: chronic pain, failed surgeries, and the story of its effects on his life and death.

    “Jacobson, whose patients nicknamed him “Dr. Feelgood,” injected then-Senator Kennedy for the first time in the summer of 1960 with his “vitamin cocktail” that included amphetamine derivatives. Kennedy, who received an injection from Jacobson shortly before the first and pivotal famous televised debate with Richard Nixon, was elected president of the US on November 8, 1960, in a closely contested election..”

    also from the article:

    “Personally, JFK remains a case study in the complexity of human nature—an affluent political scion turned war hero, a serial philanderer and methamphetamine user, a civil-rights supporter and initiator of the Vietnam War who was both the youngest man elected president in the nation’s history and perhaps the 20th century’s least healthy one.”

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  122. “Are certain kinds of music more likely to have been made and appreciated by somebody on speed?”
    Speed created rockabilly and thus rock and roll. All the Sun Studios guys took whatever amphetamines Elvis’s momma’s doctor prescribed. Elvis, Cash, Jerry Lee and Sam Phillips all did their thing on 1950s speed. Read any of their biographies.

    You shake my nerves and rattle my brain……. Indeed.

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  123. All that 60s culture was actually produced on speed. The musicians, artists, writers, everyone was on it. Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Andy Warhol, Hunter Thompson, all of them. It was just there in the background getting the actual work done while LSD got all the glory. It’s right there in Tom Wolfe’s book on Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters. Speed was like coffee to them.

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    • Replies: @The Last Real Calvinist

    It’s right there in Tom Wolfe’s book on Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters. Speed was like coffee to them.

     

    This is a good observation. In Acid Test, Wolfe is obviously focused on LSD and its effects, because it was the new, new thing in the hippies-r-us drugs scene. But I recall Wolfe making repeated offhand mentions of various Pranksters getting shit done (e.g. event set-up, sound work, etc.) when they're on speed -- especially Babbs and Cassady, if I recall correctly?
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  124. @anon
    People who do not have ADD don't get it. The effect on those who CAN focus is different than the effect on those who cannot, so all y'all can take the idea that Adderall for people with ADD is like speed can go cram your own ignorance up your collective rectal orifice.

    For people with ADD, Adderall allows for the suppression of an ancient adaptive trait, scanning the horizon constantly for threats, that is maladaptive in an office environment. Note, I wrote suppress, not eliminate.

    Adderall does this by stimulating the central nervous system, mainly the pre-frontal cortex, and allowing the mind to direct itself to pay attention to what it has decided to pay attention to rather than to what the environment tells it to. It also allows the mind to break away from hyper-focus and to transition from one task to another.

    A better name for ADD would be Attention Management Disorder.

    For anybody without ADD, to use Adderall is to abuse the drug.

    This article is ignorant and destructive. Hope my comments help clarify.

    “the idea that Adderall for people with ADD is like speed”

    It’s not like speed, it is speed. Whether you have ADD or not (if ADD actually exists).

    “A better name for ADD would be Attention Management Disorder”

    No, the idea is that your attention is deficient. “Attention Management Disorder” might imply you’re overmanaging your attention, which would be inaccurate.

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Strictly speaking, not really. Attention to one thing over a period of time versus attention to many things over a period of time. Still "attention."
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  125. The writer most famous for being blasted on amphetamines all the time is Hunter Thompson.

    Taking tests or writing papers on adderall is generally a pretty bad idea — you’re not actually smarter on the drug, but you feel like you are, so you tend to give the wrong answers but with vastly inflated confidence. The real value is in studying a few days in advance of the exam.

    I also find adderall is pretty fun to drink on but YMMV.

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  126. @joeyjoejoe
    "The human brain wasn’t built for accounting or software engineering. A few lucky people can do these things ten hours a day, every day, with a smile. The rest of us start fidgeting and checking our cell phone somewhere around the thirty minute mark."


    I've often thought that this describes cubicle life in general-not just for software engineers and accounting (as does Dilbert). When I was a cubicle dweller (in government service, which I had thought was unusually low-pressure), I found that 1) I was able to get my proscribed work done in far less than 8 hours, and 2) I spent my 'extra' time surfing the internet and idling. Everybody did.

    However, talking to other, private sector cubicle dwellers (from reasonably high-end engineering to graphic design and traditional business), I learned that everybody does that. Coffee breaks, chit chat, and irrelevance seem to be standard behavior in the working world. Work, other than during brief deadline-induced crises, is pretty easy.

    I often wondered how large organizations could do it-could pay people to do essentially 4 (or less) hours of productive work in an 8 hour day. I also thought that genuinely successful individuals were those who could focus, and actually be productive, their full 8 hours. The rest of us stumble through profissional life getting a little bit done in between unnecessary meetings, the Drudge Report, coffee breaks, and flirting.

    I assume that, when we talk about the increase in production caused by technological progress, THAT is where the extra is going-not in reducing our work days (to 6 or 4 hours) but in allowing us to goof off while at work. We still spend 8 hours a day at work-we just produce less while there. Robots in the factory floor, industrial-scale farming, and computer efficiency allow us to do so.

    joe

    “seem to be standard behavior in the working world”

    Yes, that’s why people can relate to the movie Office Space. An extra wrinkle is that human beings don’t want to work if they don’t have to, which was also part of the point of that movie. The main character decides he’s going to do nothing, like a lazy version of Bartelby the Scrivener.

    Of course, human beings don’t actually want to do nothing. That guy ends up working construction, where at least he gets physical activity and a chance to be outdoors. Almost no one is fulfilled by cubicle work.

    “allow us to do so”

    “Us” being the ones who can get jobs. Meanwhile, robots actually eliminate jobs. Which frees people up to work other jobs, if they’re invented. Which has happened over the course of the various “revolutions,” but with that stubborn old I.Q. thing may have a limit.

    Unless the losers all serve the lucky ones who get cubicles. But there is a planet full of brown people for that. And we’re all supposed to be free and self-supporting. There’s no noblesse oblige to take care of a servant class, and very few freeholders actually supporting themselves. Only the state to take care of everyone.

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  127. @syonredux

    British troops used 72 million amphetamine tablets in the second world war[2] and the RAF used so many that "Methedrine won the Battle of Britain" according to one report.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alertness

    I suspect that would apply more to long range, multi-hour, bombing missions (nights). The fear, panic and adrenaline would be enough to see a pilot through the brief flights, often measured in minutes, involved in the Battle of Britain (summer days).

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  128. @AndrewR
    Why it can be good? It's as close as most people can get to an ego-dissolving experience without moving to Bhutan and becoming a monk.

    Why did I get sick of it? I'm not sure. I guess for the same reason I get sick of most things I try. Variety is the spice of life.

    “It’s as close as most people can get to an ego-dissolving experience”

    What about sleep or being out in nature? Or simply shutting up? Which are cheap, by the way.

    Such things may not actually dissolve your ego, but I have a feeling that’s a meaningless phrase.

    Why would you want to do that, anyway? God gave you your ego.

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    • Replies: @AndrewR
    God gave humans a lot of things that he shouldn't have. Did he really need to give anyone a sexual attraction to children? The ego is adaptive but it's beyond obvious that it often does more harm than good.
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  129. One of the most drug-addled musicians to release an album was Sly Stone in the early seventies with There’s a Riot Going On . I believe his drugs of choice were cocaine and PCP. He mumbles his way through all the songs yet still produced great music.

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  130. @Autochthon
    If you'd have taken some speed to concentrate before writing, you'd have remembered it is "Motörhead."

    Concentration is about attention to details, damn it!

    I’m pretty sure Lemmy said speed was the only drug that really delivered. I think he’d tried them all. He was really anti heroin though.

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    • Replies: @CJ
    Famous Lemmy quote: "I was kicked out of Hawkwind for doing the wrong drugs."
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  131. @william munny
    I have "it," based on symptoms that would place me on the far right of the ADD side of the bell curve, and because there is no real "it." ADD is diagnosed based on the existence of symptoms, including based on observations by teachers, so the diagnosis is incredibly flawed. If you can learn to harness it, it can be very advantageous in many fields. People with ADD can be incredibly hyperfocused on a task they are interested in, to the point of excluding everything else, even eating or drinking, until it is completed. That can work well in white-collar professions with deadlines. But procrastination, lack of interest, and distractability interfere constantly, and to other people it looks like the person is distracted from doing other things, rather than focused on doing one thing.

    Adults learn to manage it much better than children, who have a lot of difficulty in school. ADD is most obvious in kids who aren't that bright or are uninterested in school. The smart kids can learn to hyperfocus on schoolwork, and their parents complain they don't do anything else. But if you throw those non-academic kids into something they really like, like sports, games, or some nerdy thing, they can focus forever, to the exclusion of everything else.

    The most debilitating—and obvious—ADHD symptoms seem to be issues with socializing, forming friendships, making inappropriate remarks, etc. Generally speaking, people who have ADHD tend to be “weird,” especially as kids, sometimes as adults depending on how well they’ve adapted, but some things will stand out. Once on stimulant therapy, they’ll act more “normal” (in terms of socialization), which is honestly the best benefit. You won’t see this in people without ADHD.

    As to the benefits (or well, advantages), “non-linear” vs. “linear” thought, the former of which excels at generating new ideas by connecting seemingly unrelated things—thus, the constant distractions. For following through on them, however, “linear” thought is much more effective and consistent. I can see how in prehistoric times being able to spot possible dangers or think of a novel, but easily executable, ideas would be advantageous. Same goes for flouting social norms when a social structure isn’t rigid or established.

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  132. @Anon
    There's a problem with this. Ashkenazi Jews went through a population bottleneck. Let's say you have a small cluster of high IQ individuals who went through that bottleneck along with another cluster of Jews who carry the genes for these diseases. The descendants of the people who went through the bottleneck will have a mix of both sets of genes, but this still doesn't mean that correlation equals causation. The genes might not have anything to do with producing high IQs.

    Do non-Jewish Askhenazi whites with high IQs have these diseases? I've never heard that they do to any particular degree. But if the same genes that make Askenazi Jews smart are the same genes that make non-Jewish high IQ whites smart, then how did the latter avoid the diseases? Unless there are entirely different sets of genes that can make different populations groups smart, I'm not sure there's any connection between these diseases and IQ.

    Well, the whole idea of hybrid vigor is that there are many ways to skin a cat. If you take 100 plants and subject them to cold temperature so that 95% die of it, the remaining 5% have random mutations that make them better adapted to handle cold, but they don’t all have the same random mutations. That is why if you breed 2 of them, you can get offspring who inherited both separate tricks and end up even more cold tolerant than either of the parents.

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  133. @YetAnotherAnon

    "Here comes the Nice
    Looking so good
    He makes me feel like no one else could
    He knows what I want
    He's got what I need
    He's always there
    When I need some speed"
     
    Steve Marriott was a great white soul singer.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD1m_esrbUg

    A year or so later (note the hippyish gear they're wearing) it was LSD and "Itchycoo Park".

    On topic, the ability to code for 12 hours non-stop definitely declines with age. It becomes pointless after about 11 hours (probably less by now, not had to do it for a few years), as anything else you write you're likely to scrap the following morning.

    On topic, the ability to code for 12 hours non-stop definitely declines with age. It becomes pointless after about 11 hours (probably less by now, not had to do it for a few years), as anything else you write you’re likely to scrap the following morning.

    I wonder if much of the demand for Adderall is due to the “open office” floor plans. I found myself having to wear earplugs and noise canceling headphone. A brief lunch time walk in the sun was also essential if I was seated close to a window. The 20-30 minutes of sunlight helped to improve concentration. I also found that when possible turning down the fluorescent lighting helped. Also I would avoid carbohydrates until late in the afternoon to avoid 2:00 “food coma”.

    No programmer can code effectively for more than 4-5 hours a day over the long haul. However brief periods of sustained effort are possible. The problem with most corporate environments that it is impossible to establish unbroken periods of “flow time” of more than an hour or two where concentration occurs with minimal effort.

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  134. @joeyjoejoe
    "The human brain wasn’t built for accounting or software engineering. A few lucky people can do these things ten hours a day, every day, with a smile. The rest of us start fidgeting and checking our cell phone somewhere around the thirty minute mark."


    I've often thought that this describes cubicle life in general-not just for software engineers and accounting (as does Dilbert). When I was a cubicle dweller (in government service, which I had thought was unusually low-pressure), I found that 1) I was able to get my proscribed work done in far less than 8 hours, and 2) I spent my 'extra' time surfing the internet and idling. Everybody did.

    However, talking to other, private sector cubicle dwellers (from reasonably high-end engineering to graphic design and traditional business), I learned that everybody does that. Coffee breaks, chit chat, and irrelevance seem to be standard behavior in the working world. Work, other than during brief deadline-induced crises, is pretty easy.

    I often wondered how large organizations could do it-could pay people to do essentially 4 (or less) hours of productive work in an 8 hour day. I also thought that genuinely successful individuals were those who could focus, and actually be productive, their full 8 hours. The rest of us stumble through profissional life getting a little bit done in between unnecessary meetings, the Drudge Report, coffee breaks, and flirting.

    I assume that, when we talk about the increase in production caused by technological progress, THAT is where the extra is going-not in reducing our work days (to 6 or 4 hours) but in allowing us to goof off while at work. We still spend 8 hours a day at work-we just produce less while there. Robots in the factory floor, industrial-scale farming, and computer efficiency allow us to do so.

    joe

    Are you implying I am not working right now? How dare you imply that I am not working right now.

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  135. @joeyjoejoe
    "The human brain wasn’t built for accounting or software engineering. A few lucky people can do these things ten hours a day, every day, with a smile. The rest of us start fidgeting and checking our cell phone somewhere around the thirty minute mark."


    I've often thought that this describes cubicle life in general-not just for software engineers and accounting (as does Dilbert). When I was a cubicle dweller (in government service, which I had thought was unusually low-pressure), I found that 1) I was able to get my proscribed work done in far less than 8 hours, and 2) I spent my 'extra' time surfing the internet and idling. Everybody did.

    However, talking to other, private sector cubicle dwellers (from reasonably high-end engineering to graphic design and traditional business), I learned that everybody does that. Coffee breaks, chit chat, and irrelevance seem to be standard behavior in the working world. Work, other than during brief deadline-induced crises, is pretty easy.

    I often wondered how large organizations could do it-could pay people to do essentially 4 (or less) hours of productive work in an 8 hour day. I also thought that genuinely successful individuals were those who could focus, and actually be productive, their full 8 hours. The rest of us stumble through profissional life getting a little bit done in between unnecessary meetings, the Drudge Report, coffee breaks, and flirting.

    I assume that, when we talk about the increase in production caused by technological progress, THAT is where the extra is going-not in reducing our work days (to 6 or 4 hours) but in allowing us to goof off while at work. We still spend 8 hours a day at work-we just produce less while there. Robots in the factory floor, industrial-scale farming, and computer efficiency allow us to do so.

    joe

    Your experience of the working world in the private sector (which you admit is composed of hearsay) is diametrically opposed to mine, which is composed of experience. Just FWIW of course.

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  136. @Anon
    Getting a full night's sleep, eating properly, and adding moderate exercise is still the best formula. Frankly, if you're not creative without drugs or alcohol, you were not meant to do creative work. Creative people don't need enhancers.

    Creative people don’t need enhancers.

    Gimme a break. Reality is tedious. That’s why clever people make up stories and songs. And also why many drink and take drugs.

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  137. If anyone is interested in an audio version of this (rather long) SSC post. I do a podcast of all the SSC posts.

    ITunes Link: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/slate-star-codex-podcast/id1295289140
    MP3 of just that post: http://traffic.libsyn.com/sscpodcast/Adderall_Risks_Much_More_Than_You_Wanted_to_Know.mp3

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  138. @SimplePseudonymicHandle
    Coffee's cultural effect is vast.

    True. But, I’ll go out on a limb and say that the stimulant/beneficial effects of it are vastly overrated. A hot drink in the morning will always help the blood vessels dilate and aromas will get the nose breathing more. But the sugar that people pile in it (check out those Starbucks drinks) is probably giving far more of a kick than the caffeine.

    Drinking it black, instead of eating, like women will do for weight control, just increases anxiety.

    Coffee is fine, and can be delicious, but don’t think that it’s making your life any better. And if you’re buying those over-priced, sugar and calorie-filled behemoths at cafes, then it’s making you poorer and fatter.

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  139. @Ripple Earthdevil
    Molly? That's a common nickname for MDMA, which is in the amphetamine family but a totally different ball of wax entirely as far as effects go.

    Rip, not a pharmacist, but I remember them being called Mollies.

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  140. @Jenner Ickham Errican

    go cram your own ignorance up your collective rectal orifice
     
    Sounds like you need a fix, dawg! Kreayshawn’s got the hookup. ;)

    Gnarly, radical, on the block I'm magical
    See me at your college campus, baggie full of Adderalls
    Call me if you need a fix, call me if you need a boost
    See them other chicken heads?
    They don't ever leave the coop
     
    https://youtu.be/6WJFjXtHcy4?t=43s

    60 million views – damn.

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  141. @AndrewR
    Joe is a senior citizen and slang does change...

    Andrew, thank you for coming to the defense of a senile citizen. Happy New Year my friend.

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  142. @joeyjoejoe
    "The human brain wasn’t built for accounting or software engineering. A few lucky people can do these things ten hours a day, every day, with a smile. The rest of us start fidgeting and checking our cell phone somewhere around the thirty minute mark."


    I've often thought that this describes cubicle life in general-not just for software engineers and accounting (as does Dilbert). When I was a cubicle dweller (in government service, which I had thought was unusually low-pressure), I found that 1) I was able to get my proscribed work done in far less than 8 hours, and 2) I spent my 'extra' time surfing the internet and idling. Everybody did.

    However, talking to other, private sector cubicle dwellers (from reasonably high-end engineering to graphic design and traditional business), I learned that everybody does that. Coffee breaks, chit chat, and irrelevance seem to be standard behavior in the working world. Work, other than during brief deadline-induced crises, is pretty easy.

    I often wondered how large organizations could do it-could pay people to do essentially 4 (or less) hours of productive work in an 8 hour day. I also thought that genuinely successful individuals were those who could focus, and actually be productive, their full 8 hours. The rest of us stumble through profissional life getting a little bit done in between unnecessary meetings, the Drudge Report, coffee breaks, and flirting.

    I assume that, when we talk about the increase in production caused by technological progress, THAT is where the extra is going-not in reducing our work days (to 6 or 4 hours) but in allowing us to goof off while at work. We still spend 8 hours a day at work-we just produce less while there. Robots in the factory floor, industrial-scale farming, and computer efficiency allow us to do so.

    joe

    increased productivity has allowed many firms to reduce the numbers of workers by 50% and still increase production over the last 25 years. In my career as a Trader on wall street we experienced a huge increase in productivity which resulted in a 90% reduction of workers while the amount of shares traded rose tenfold…back in the 90s most trading of NASDAQ equities occurred over the phone…as a market maker we were on the phone , non-stop from 9:30 AM until 4:00 , lunch was delivered to us on our desk, and we ate while trading…

    by 1999 more of the NASDAQ trading was now being done electronically, yet 50% of the trading still was done via telephone…When Goldman Sachs bought us in 2001 we had about 2,000 employees, about 400 working on the NYSE floor and another 500 trading NASDAQ stocks upstairs…joining the 600 Goldman upstairs traders….Goldman had no presence on the NYSE floor until they acquired us. Now with computers and algorithms the number of traders has declined by 80%……instead of 1,200 upstairs NASDAQ traders at Goldman, they have just 300 left…..it also effected our clients. back in 2004 a large hedge fund may have had 30 equity traders, by 2015 they only required 5 as the algorithms helped reduce the required number of traders, a trader could now trade more stocks, more efficiently via the use of altos and no longer needed to make calls to traders to buy and sell large positions…

    The American Stock Exchange, no longer exists in physical form….thousands of traders and clerks worked there….no longer. Same with the NY Mercantile Exchange, which was the focus of the climatic scene in Trading Places….all those traders lost their jobs due to computers, and now trading is much less costly and anyone can participate from their basements at home via the internet…The NYSE floor once employed thousands , yet today just a few hundred work on the floor, placed their for entertainment value..The Big Board is now little more than a Big Tent for a phony media circus of photo-ops and cable-news talking heads. Increased productivity resulted in the loss of thousands of trading jobs, replaced by computers and algorithms which are far more efficient than people.

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    • Replies: @Daniel H
    This is all good, because you were all grossly overpaid phone jockeys who added ZERO value to the economy. I can't wait until the day the last human trader is fired on Wall Street.
    , @Whatisshould
    And so civilisation and human happiness progresses, or maybe not.
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  143. Speed – you want current examples? Not only are US fighter pilots still given it, but it is FUELING ISIS. The recent report about bags of Captagon being taped to each assault rifle delivery…too lazy to link, it was in that latest study about ISIS weapons.

    The domestic example? All of your blue collar work is aided by it – especially now, since so many are on opiates. Meth is the coffee of much of the current blue collar class.

    But the largest impact is in the silicon valley set. They are ALL on it. They are ALL assholes with no broad thought process. They are content to go “home” to their bunk bed crash pads shared with 10 other tweaker-bros. They take one before work, and one at lunch. Many of them take downers at night to go to sleep, just like they did when they were kids. The entire millenial generation has been taught to be drug addicts from toddlerhood. Erectile dysfunction, paranoia, shallow and impulsive thinking. But without Adderall, who would code the Dating Apps?? It’s a wholesale robotification of society. Speed, code, speed, code, app-date. Or for the ugly, porn.

    I’ve seen so many on sites like this lament and ridicule the shallow compulsive, indiscriminate hook-up culture of today as well as the shallow SJW parrot-mob scene. Well, they’re both the result of tweaking from toddlerhood. The “Men are trash” from feminists is also rooted in this – tweaking women who can’t tell that their romantic interests are also tweakers, and are “let down” by it – while on the other side, the tweaker bros stay up all night on MRA forums highlighting all the disgusting behaviors of their tweaker baes.

    Coding more and longer…was it worth it? If you want to create an army of mindless compulsive drones, it certainly is.

    Literally every creative person suffers and declines after they introduce speed to their regime. I’ve seen it in my personal life and with “actual” artists. Speed say, in short bursts during international bombing runs(or for fueling a savage mercenary army) is its only practical application. So, iow, it’s death.

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    • Replies: @Bill P

    The domestic example? All of your blue collar work is aided by it – especially now, since so many are on opiates. Meth is the coffee of much of the current blue collar class.
     
    No way. The blue collar workforce is the most assiduously drug-tested of all. You have any idea of the liabilities involved with the machines these people operate? Blue collar workers drink energy drinks and consume a lot of sugar (candy, donuts, etc.) for an energy boost. It's one of the main reasons so many are overweight.

    BTW, most people on opiates are on disability or some other form of state assistance. They aren't meaningfully part of the work force.
    , @Whoever

    Speed – you want current examples? Not only are US fighter pilots still given it
     
    Not Naval aviators
    , @Opinionator
    Why would a woman be "let down" about not knowing whether her romantic interest is a "tweaker"?
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  144. Adderall and Anti-Depressants is basically 21st Century slavery. No one wants anyone to complain anymore.

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  145. @Opinionator
    Are there any modern environments (even office ones), occupations, professions, or tasks for which ADD is adaptive/advantageous?

    Are there any modern environments (even office ones), occupations, professions, or tasks for which ADD is adaptive/advantageous?

    I would think not, because there is no definitive diagnostic test for ADD, except an inability to function or complete tasks in a setting where it is desirable to function. For correct diagnosis various other possibilities must be excluded such as a metabolic dysfunction, brain damage, toxicity (for example lead poisoning), neurosyphilis, and then if all findings are negative you are left with ADD which is supposed to be a manifestation of undetectable brain malfunction, possibly acquired during gestation or around the time of birth.

    The hardest diagnosis is differentiating between ADD and common or garden stupidity or lack of home training.

    For a diagnosis of ADD the symptoms must be present for at least 6 months and in more than one setting (so not only in school, but never at home).

    It is tempting to say that ADD is just a hoax, but of course in a class full of kids an experienced teacher can fairly easily determine that a kid is not playing with a full deck, and if a kid is unable to function normally in a school setting, there must be SOMETHING wrong, even if we don’t know the real cause.

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    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool
    I know a guy with ADHD. The second grey box on this site is a list of diagnostic criteria for ADHD. It's as if someone spent a year with this guy and distilled his personality down to 18 characteristics. It's uncanny how perfectly the glove fits.

    As with most psychiatric disorders, most people probably display a few of the diagnostic criteria but not to the degree that it becomes incapacitating. However, there's no doubt that some people have debilitating ADHD. The problem is that ADHD drugs may do little to help them. Someone with harebrained impulsivity isn't going to get a bottle of speed then pace themselves over a month so they can work a desk job. They're going to snort the whole bottle up on a 5 day porn binge.

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  146. @Karl
    3 candid_observer > I don’t get the cultural disdain for performance enhancing drugs


    i'll match you, and raise you one: I don't get the cultural disdain for performance enhancing drugs when used by athletes.

    The documentary Bigger, Stronger, Faster does an excellent job of litigating just that point. The film showcases the hypocrisy of a society awash in performance enhancing drugs that bans their use in sports, while basing entire industries on their promotion elsewhere.

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    • Replies: @guest
    I don't see how that's hypocritical. It's like saying we're two-faced for not having literal goal lines in other parts of life.

    The whole point of sports is that unlike much of the rest of life, they have well-defined rules. Participants voluntarily agree to compete within these rules (sometimes with the intention to cheat), and that sets their play apart from, for instance, your morning commute. Which has rules of its own, of course, but is not as strictly organized.

    Now, you may not like the rules, but what does it matter that you can take drugs to get ahead over here, yet are barred from doing so in the NFL? Hey, did you notice that you can't go around tackling people in regular life? "What hypocrites we are for calling it a sack on a football field and assault on the street," said the junior high kid who just learned the word "hypocrisy."

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  147. @Jonathan Mason

    Are there any modern environments (even office ones), occupations, professions, or tasks for which ADD is adaptive/advantageous?
     
    I would think not, because there is no definitive diagnostic test for ADD, except an inability to function or complete tasks in a setting where it is desirable to function. For correct diagnosis various other possibilities must be excluded such as a metabolic dysfunction, brain damage, toxicity (for example lead poisoning), neurosyphilis, and then if all findings are negative you are left with ADD which is supposed to be a manifestation of undetectable brain malfunction, possibly acquired during gestation or around the time of birth.

    The hardest diagnosis is differentiating between ADD and common or garden stupidity or lack of home training.

    For a diagnosis of ADD the symptoms must be present for at least 6 months and in more than one setting (so not only in school, but never at home).

    It is tempting to say that ADD is just a hoax, but of course in a class full of kids an experienced teacher can fairly easily determine that a kid is not playing with a full deck, and if a kid is unable to function normally in a school setting, there must be SOMETHING wrong, even if we don't know the real cause.

    I know a guy with ADHD. The second grey box on this site is a list of diagnostic criteria for ADHD. It’s as if someone spent a year with this guy and distilled his personality down to 18 characteristics. It’s uncanny how perfectly the glove fits.

    As with most psychiatric disorders, most people probably display a few of the diagnostic criteria but not to the degree that it becomes incapacitating. However, there’s no doubt that some people have debilitating ADHD. The problem is that ADHD drugs may do little to help them. Someone with harebrained impulsivity isn’t going to get a bottle of speed then pace themselves over a month so they can work a desk job. They’re going to snort the whole bottle up on a 5 day porn binge.

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    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    As with most psychiatric disorders, most people probably display a few of the diagnostic criteria but not to the degree that it becomes incapacitating.
     
    Yes, it and it is very difficult to know if behaviors are actually symptoms of brain pathology, or just the personality of that person.

    When describing "symptoms" diagnosticians are naturally careful to avoid anything that sounds like moral judgment, so there are no such symptoms as "disobedient", "disrespectful", or "rude".

    But children do vary enormously in personality without there being anything wrong with their brains, except that they are a pain in the ass.
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  148. @Chrisnonymous

    But what kind of changes are there due to speed? Are certain kinds of music or movies or books more likely to have been made and appreciated by somebody on speed?
     
    I'm guessing drugs like Adderall make it easier to get from point A to point B in creating something, but decrease the number of natural detours one might take in the creative process. I'd also guess expression in the medium of commmunication (eg, prose) becomes more direct and transparent.

    Long term use causes receptor sensitivity to dopamine stimulation to decrease, so there’s both tolerance and addictive effects, without considering other things from screwing around with neurochemicals. Messing with the brain is not a free lunch, though as with Gwern, I believe when done with care and understanding it can lead to overall benefits.

    We don’t know about “creativity” to make too many informed comments, but the evidence indeed is that the ‘tunnel vision” does effectively sabotage the “diffuse thinking” portions of the brain for creative understanding. Of course, there’s a pill for that too…

    I generally agree that the brain is no longer well optimized for modern society; that and distractions have become too well optimized.

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  149. @Vinay
    “What are the cultural effects of speed-type drugs”

    You expect THERAPEUTIC doses of Adderall to have consciousness-altering effects???

    Amphataminea are used by military aviators on long missions, truckers, cabbies etc., right? Why would it have any more of a cultural effect than, say, coffee?

    You’ll be surprised. Birth control for women, for example, has permanent effects on the brain. One can only wonder if it has caused other cultural effects once it came into widespread use.

    The blood-brain barrier is designed to generally condition our brains from being influenced by diet but with all of the newfound methods of getting around it, its no longer working all that well.

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  150. @Mr. Anon
    Nicotine has a stimulative effect with greatly focuses the mind. I wonder how much the world has lost with the decline of smoking. A lot of cancer to be sure, but also a lot of great work.

    well we’ve certainly gotten a lot fatter. But, that probably would have happened regardless of the ciggies. Non-smokers were thin before the great change too.

    Another thing to think about is how much better people breathe indoors now that there’s no smoke wafting around. Sure, the smoker felt better with his haze, but the non-smoker was gagging.

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  151. @joeyjoejoe
    "The human brain wasn’t built for accounting or software engineering. A few lucky people can do these things ten hours a day, every day, with a smile. The rest of us start fidgeting and checking our cell phone somewhere around the thirty minute mark."


    I've often thought that this describes cubicle life in general-not just for software engineers and accounting (as does Dilbert). When I was a cubicle dweller (in government service, which I had thought was unusually low-pressure), I found that 1) I was able to get my proscribed work done in far less than 8 hours, and 2) I spent my 'extra' time surfing the internet and idling. Everybody did.

    However, talking to other, private sector cubicle dwellers (from reasonably high-end engineering to graphic design and traditional business), I learned that everybody does that. Coffee breaks, chit chat, and irrelevance seem to be standard behavior in the working world. Work, other than during brief deadline-induced crises, is pretty easy.

    I often wondered how large organizations could do it-could pay people to do essentially 4 (or less) hours of productive work in an 8 hour day. I also thought that genuinely successful individuals were those who could focus, and actually be productive, their full 8 hours. The rest of us stumble through profissional life getting a little bit done in between unnecessary meetings, the Drudge Report, coffee breaks, and flirting.

    I assume that, when we talk about the increase in production caused by technological progress, THAT is where the extra is going-not in reducing our work days (to 6 or 4 hours) but in allowing us to goof off while at work. We still spend 8 hours a day at work-we just produce less while there. Robots in the factory floor, industrial-scale farming, and computer efficiency allow us to do so.

    joe

    The full time jobs I’ve had track pretty closely with your experience. Part time jobs are continuous work, like what I do now. I go into the office and get to work immediately and I leave when the work is done. Takes anywhere from 2 to 3 hours.

    Restaurant service jobs are continuous work, but mostly part time.

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  152. @Anonymous
    And the response to adderall is highly variable. E.g., I get almost magical effects from nicotine but almost nothing from adderall. Quitting smoking was by far the most traumatic experience of my life (probably couldn't do it without bupropion). Adderall - wish it actually worked but I've never noticed it do much of anything. Never dared to ingest more than twice the "safe" dose though.

    same here…I much prefer nicotine to adderall…
    I was never a smoker, started using nicotine lozenges 15 years ago when i read about the benefits, which enabled me to increase my focus at work and lose 15 pound, (made it easy to stop snacking, it really does curb your appetite))….

    After using the lozenges for about 12 months i upgraded to Swedish Snus , a form of smokeless tobacco which is dried, not cured like American chew…thus no need to spit and less carcinogens than the American smokeless tobacco.

    Not only did nicotine help me stop using Ritalin, it reduced my caffeine consumption and helped me reduce my drinking. I currently consume about 20 swedish snus pouches per day…each pouch has 8mg of nicotine and a can of Swedish suns cost $5.00 and has 24 pouches.

    Nicotine really is an amazing drug. Not surprised to see Vaping getting more popular…I have yet to vape, but may consider trying it , as it may be less costly than spending $5 per day on my Swedish Snus.

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  153. @MIkey Darmody
    Adderall seems, among other things, to juice up the verbal reasoning abilities of people who are already verbally loaded. It allows these people to be prolific. Moreover, it seems to do away with the diffidence and indecisiveness associated with writer's block (Paul Valery said that he tried to write the Great French Novel with the opening chapter describing a countess going to opera at 6PM. He said he never finished the novel because he could never figure out why it shouldn't begin with a baroness going to the theater at 7PM: he could have used Adderall).

    At the same time, it creates a strange empathic enthusiasm; you feel a deep bond of love and understanding with the people you know, to an almost frenzied degree.

    However, it does something bad to the mind. I believe that there are a great deal more people in this country with psychotic and paranoid conditions that mimic schizophrenia, due to abuse of adderall and other types of speed. I've run into a handful of so-called "Targeted Individuals" in the past couple years: my guess is that they were speed users. It is an underreported problem.

    At the same time, it creates a strange empathic enthusiasm; you feel a deep bond of love and understanding with the people you know, to an almost frenzied degree.

    If so, then that is unique to Adderall – I’ve had the unfortunate experience of knowing more than a few drug dealers, all who were stimulant users as well. To put it lightly, they were disgusting creeps who definitely did not display such traits of love or understanding, not while forcing preteens to do porn for a little more cash.

    And that’s one of the milder things they did.

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  154. adrafinil and noopept are newer nootropic drugs that can supposedly help learning. I have tried them both and they both work. Nootropics are a big industry. I also drink green tea a lot.

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  155. William Gibson is supposed to have written neuromancer while on something like speed

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  156. ADD/ADHD and the Autism spectrum(as well as all of this juvenile diabetes/cancer/autoimmune/IBS shit) are the results of iatrogenic vaccine injury. On the neurological side, simply put, it’s brain damage. So yes, it is policy to prescribe SPEED to these children who are brain damaged to begin with, just so they can “pass” students and the whole thing doesn’t come tumbling down. But it’s a sorry state, and now this generation is having kids of their own. Speed for everyone! Well, first they give you an SSRI to chemically lobotomize you, and then they give you speed to bring the robot out of its torpor ready for whatever busywork needs doing.

    Speed-amended, brain damaged torpor is where we are as a country. And then people wonder why, why can’t we just “get woke”..

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  157. Also, like with most drugs – if you’re dumb, it will not make you smart. If you’re already smart, it may give you a boost for a while but it will eventually box in your natural talent, and twist your priorities to hedonism and selfishness.

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  158. And that this silicon valley bro subculture has so embraced it as a daily bread, and minimizing or flat out denying the negative impacts just further proves how brain damaged and subpar their constitutions were in the first place. No generation has embraced tweaking en masse like this, as a way of being – sure cocaine etc had their moments in history but it never *inspired* anything, unless you value nonsense like Freud, yacht rock, and most disco music. To say that the great poets and cultural figures needed it to excel is ahistorical, it was recreational and perfunctory to a preconceived goal, always. Not fucking mother’s milk like the autists of SanFran see it. This is why the tech industry is so “style over substance” these days why vast resources go to spinning failures into successes.

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    • Replies: @guest
    Why are so many writers drunks, people once asked. Something to do with the personality type, maybe. Or it brought forth their muses.

    The answer might be no more complicated than that they can get away with it, because they can work around their drunkenness. Much harder if you have to sit still nine to five while people are watching. Which can be done, and is all the time. Just not as often.

    Same with rock stars, who aren't held to very high standards in live performance. They aren't expected to do much else, besides dealing with the media, which they can usually sleepwalk through, and producing new material, which they can take their sweet time about. They're also cut an enormous length of slack by society.

    Mostly, drugs are what you can get away with.

    I do enjoy yacht rock (Steve Winwood counts, right?) and disco, by the way. Though I despise Freud.
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  159. @L Bean
    Speed - you want current examples? Not only are US fighter pilots still given it, but it is FUELING ISIS. The recent report about bags of Captagon being taped to each assault rifle delivery...too lazy to link, it was in that latest study about ISIS weapons.

    The domestic example? All of your blue collar work is aided by it - especially now, since so many are on opiates. Meth is the coffee of much of the current blue collar class.

    But the largest impact is in the silicon valley set. They are ALL on it. They are ALL assholes with no broad thought process. They are content to go "home" to their bunk bed crash pads shared with 10 other tweaker-bros. They take one before work, and one at lunch. Many of them take downers at night to go to sleep, just like they did when they were kids. The entire millenial generation has been taught to be drug addicts from toddlerhood. Erectile dysfunction, paranoia, shallow and impulsive thinking. But without Adderall, who would code the Dating Apps?? It's a wholesale robotification of society. Speed, code, speed, code, app-date. Or for the ugly, porn.

    I've seen so many on sites like this lament and ridicule the shallow compulsive, indiscriminate hook-up culture of today as well as the shallow SJW parrot-mob scene. Well, they're both the result of tweaking from toddlerhood. The "Men are trash" from feminists is also rooted in this - tweaking women who can't tell that their romantic interests are also tweakers, and are "let down" by it - while on the other side, the tweaker bros stay up all night on MRA forums highlighting all the disgusting behaviors of their tweaker baes.

    Coding more and longer...was it worth it? If you want to create an army of mindless compulsive drones, it certainly is.

    Literally every creative person suffers and declines after they introduce speed to their regime. I've seen it in my personal life and with "actual" artists. Speed say, in short bursts during international bombing runs(or for fueling a savage mercenary army) is its only practical application. So, iow, it's death.

    The domestic example? All of your blue collar work is aided by it – especially now, since so many are on opiates. Meth is the coffee of much of the current blue collar class.

    No way. The blue collar workforce is the most assiduously drug-tested of all. You have any idea of the liabilities involved with the machines these people operate? Blue collar workers drink energy drinks and consume a lot of sugar (candy, donuts, etc.) for an energy boost. It’s one of the main reasons so many are overweight.

    BTW, most people on opiates are on disability or some other form of state assistance. They aren’t meaningfully part of the work force.

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    • Replies: @L Bean
    "Machines"? The factories are (mostly)gone, the Textron plant I worked in back in the day was relocated to Mexico - in 1999. There are I guess widgets and weapons still being made, but it's not a huge chunk of employment. And you better believe that the food processing type factories are mostly illegal aliens who aren't even on the books let alone the under the noses of the drug sniffers.

    Regardless, most factories only drug test after an incident/accident and in the job screening process itself. I'm talking about contractors, service/retail industry people, day laborers, lawn maintenance etc. The meth/opiate regimen is all relatively undetectable to the untrained eye until one really goes off the deep end into a psychosis. Up to that point it just lets you work longer and more enthusiastically.

    , @Lars Porsena
    Also, drug tests, LOFL.

    Athletes have those too. Did you know they sell fake dehydrated pee powder (just add water) online?

    Also, I know a guy who actually faked a hair follicle test somehow. I can't say what trick did it because he tried about 30 of them.

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  160. @Bill P

    The domestic example? All of your blue collar work is aided by it – especially now, since so many are on opiates. Meth is the coffee of much of the current blue collar class.
     
    No way. The blue collar workforce is the most assiduously drug-tested of all. You have any idea of the liabilities involved with the machines these people operate? Blue collar workers drink energy drinks and consume a lot of sugar (candy, donuts, etc.) for an energy boost. It's one of the main reasons so many are overweight.

    BTW, most people on opiates are on disability or some other form of state assistance. They aren't meaningfully part of the work force.

    “Machines”? The factories are (mostly)gone, the Textron plant I worked in back in the day was relocated to Mexico – in 1999. There are I guess widgets and weapons still being made, but it’s not a huge chunk of employment. And you better believe that the food processing type factories are mostly illegal aliens who aren’t even on the books let alone the under the noses of the drug sniffers.

    Regardless, most factories only drug test after an incident/accident and in the job screening process itself. I’m talking about contractors, service/retail industry people, day laborers, lawn maintenance etc. The meth/opiate regimen is all relatively undetectable to the untrained eye until one really goes off the deep end into a psychosis. Up to that point it just lets you work longer and more enthusiastically.

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  161. @Anon
    Getting a full night's sleep, eating properly, and adding moderate exercise is still the best formula. Frankly, if you're not creative without drugs or alcohol, you were not meant to do creative work. Creative people don't need enhancers.

    >>Frankly, if you’re not creative without drugs or alcohol, you were not meant to do creative work. Creative people don’t need enhancers.

    Bullshit.

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  162. @Opinionator
    Perhaps Adderall is no more potent a stimulant than caffeine, and is only stigmatized due to accident of history and bioavailability.

    >>Perhaps Adderall is no more potent a stimulant than caffeine, and is only stigmatized due to accident of history and bioavailability.

    But coffee gives me the runs nowadays (It didn’t used to. Could drink 5 cups of strong Brazilian style coffee in the old days). The only coffee I drink today is my morning run to McDonalds, and I’m home 5 minutes later, and my afternoon run to Starbucks, where I’m home 5 minutes later.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    >avoiding liquefied stool
    >with daily visits to McPoison's and Stabruck's
    How does your physiology work, O visitor to our world?
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  163. @Opinionator
    Is table sugar considered to be a psychotropic?

    Jacob Sullum listed it as such in one of his libertarian legalization pieces. I have done sugar fasts where by far the most striking results were not with weight but with stability of mood. Every celebration menu has lots of sugar to guarantee guest happiness.
    Sullum’s book Saying Yes is the best one-volume treatment of American drug use.

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    • Replies: @Opinionator
    Thanks. Does "sugar" as used here include breads, rice, potatoes?
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  164. @Bill P

    The domestic example? All of your blue collar work is aided by it – especially now, since so many are on opiates. Meth is the coffee of much of the current blue collar class.
     
    No way. The blue collar workforce is the most assiduously drug-tested of all. You have any idea of the liabilities involved with the machines these people operate? Blue collar workers drink energy drinks and consume a lot of sugar (candy, donuts, etc.) for an energy boost. It's one of the main reasons so many are overweight.

    BTW, most people on opiates are on disability or some other form of state assistance. They aren't meaningfully part of the work force.

    Also, drug tests, LOFL.

    Athletes have those too. Did you know they sell fake dehydrated pee powder (just add water) online?

    Also, I know a guy who actually faked a hair follicle test somehow. I can’t say what trick did it because he tried about 30 of them.

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  165. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I think that most of the so-called “action” films were produced by speed freaks/speed demons (pick your description), at least from the vantage point of my admittedly pea-sized brain. The Pirates of The Caribbean series is a case in point. I barely got through the first one. Tried watching the second one and gave up half way through as I had no clue as to what it was about, what was going on. The “plot”, such as it was, didn’t seem to make much sense.

    Then again, Johnny Depp doesn’t make much sense either.

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  166. @Anon
    Getting a full night's sleep, eating properly, and adding moderate exercise is still the best formula. Frankly, if you're not creative without drugs or alcohol, you were not meant to do creative work. Creative people don't need enhancers.

    Yeah, Schiller and Coleridge were just winging it.

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    • Replies: @guest
    Coleridge was a massive plagiarizer, for what it's worth. Maybe he would've been more original without the opium.
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  167. @Matthew Kelly
    OT, but this...

    In 1939, while laboring on what he was certain would be his greatest novel, The Power and the Glory, Greene decided to also write one of his “entertainments”—melodramatic thrillers that lacked artistry but that he knew would make money.
     
    ...strikes me as similar to the plot/devices of Kaufman's Adaptation film. Anyone know of any connection? (A cursory Google yielded nothing.)

    >>In 1939, while laboring on what he was certain would be his greatest novel, The Power and the Glory,

    And it was his greatest novel, at least of the ones I have read. Brilliant writer. Efficient writer, he could capture the entire plot, characterization and world in what many would regard as a novella. Should have won the Nobel. Story is, there was some bias against him on the part of some judges because he was nominally Catholic. Don’t know, but wouldn’t be surprised.

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    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    I didn't finish Graham Greene's "The Power and the Glory" about an underground "whiskey priest" in an anti-clerical Mexican state, but the 50 pages or so I read were extremely impressive. The book was living up to its title.
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  168. @YetAnotherAnon

    "Here comes the Nice
    Looking so good
    He makes me feel like no one else could
    He knows what I want
    He's got what I need
    He's always there
    When I need some speed"
     
    Steve Marriott was a great white soul singer.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD1m_esrbUg

    A year or so later (note the hippyish gear they're wearing) it was LSD and "Itchycoo Park".

    On topic, the ability to code for 12 hours non-stop definitely declines with age. It becomes pointless after about 11 hours (probably less by now, not had to do it for a few years), as anything else you write you're likely to scrap the following morning.

    >>A year or so later (note the hippyish gear they’re wearing) it was LSD and “Itchycoo Park”.

    Whatever foolish looking hippy clothes British rock bands were wearing in 66-67 was aesthetically years beyond the t-shirts, blue jeans, ultra long hair, (sweat, grime, beer and cigarette) scent that all Brit bands adopted around 1969 and many have maintained to this day.

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  169. @Travis
    increased productivity has allowed many firms to reduce the numbers of workers by 50% and still increase production over the last 25 years. In my career as a Trader on wall street we experienced a huge increase in productivity which resulted in a 90% reduction of workers while the amount of shares traded rose tenfold...back in the 90s most trading of NASDAQ equities occurred over the phone...as a market maker we were on the phone , non-stop from 9:30 AM until 4:00 , lunch was delivered to us on our desk, and we ate while trading...

    by 1999 more of the NASDAQ trading was now being done electronically, yet 50% of the trading still was done via telephone...When Goldman Sachs bought us in 2001 we had about 2,000 employees, about 400 working on the NYSE floor and another 500 trading NASDAQ stocks upstairs...joining the 600 Goldman upstairs traders....Goldman had no presence on the NYSE floor until they acquired us. Now with computers and algorithms the number of traders has declined by 80%......instead of 1,200 upstairs NASDAQ traders at Goldman, they have just 300 left.....it also effected our clients. back in 2004 a large hedge fund may have had 30 equity traders, by 2015 they only required 5 as the algorithms helped reduce the required number of traders, a trader could now trade more stocks, more efficiently via the use of altos and no longer needed to make calls to traders to buy and sell large positions...

    The American Stock Exchange, no longer exists in physical form....thousands of traders and clerks worked there....no longer. Same with the NY Mercantile Exchange, which was the focus of the climatic scene in Trading Places....all those traders lost their jobs due to computers, and now trading is much less costly and anyone can participate from their basements at home via the internet...The NYSE floor once employed thousands , yet today just a few hundred work on the floor, placed their for entertainment value..The Big Board is now little more than a Big Tent for a phony media circus of photo-ops and cable-news talking heads. Increased productivity resulted in the loss of thousands of trading jobs, replaced by computers and algorithms which are far more efficient than people.

    This is all good, because you were all grossly overpaid phone jockeys who added ZERO value to the economy. I can’t wait until the day the last human trader is fired on Wall Street.

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  170. @Daniel H
    >>In 1939, while laboring on what he was certain would be his greatest novel, The Power and the Glory,

    And it was his greatest novel, at least of the ones I have read. Brilliant writer. Efficient writer, he could capture the entire plot, characterization and world in what many would regard as a novella. Should have won the Nobel. Story is, there was some bias against him on the part of some judges because he was nominally Catholic. Don't know, but wouldn't be surprised.

    I didn’t finish Graham Greene’s “The Power and the Glory” about an underground “whiskey priest” in an anti-clerical Mexican state, but the 50 pages or so I read were extremely impressive. The book was living up to its title.

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  171. @Lurker
    I'm pretty sure Lemmy said speed was the only drug that really delivered. I think he'd tried them all. He was really anti heroin though.

    Famous Lemmy quote: “I was kicked out of Hawkwind for doing the wrong drugs.”

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    • Replies: @Anon87
    Lemmy said in the recent documentary about him that a band has to agree on what drugs to take. Half the band can't do uppers while the other half are on downers. That led him to leave Hawkwind for Motorhead.
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  172. @Daniel H
    >>Perhaps Adderall is no more potent a stimulant than caffeine, and is only stigmatized due to accident of history and bioavailability.

    But coffee gives me the runs nowadays (It didn't used to. Could drink 5 cups of strong Brazilian style coffee in the old days). The only coffee I drink today is my morning run to McDonalds, and I'm home 5 minutes later, and my afternoon run to Starbucks, where I'm home 5 minutes later.

    >avoiding liquefied stool
    >with daily visits to McPoison’s and Stabruck’s
    How does your physiology work, O visitor to our world?

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  173. @YetAnotherAnon
    Sounds a bit like LSD-using advice from the 70s.


    But on some occasions the street variety can kill you, ne c'est pas? Or are all those grieving parents in the papers talking nonsense? (A friend's 15 year old son took 'E' and she spent an unpleasant 24 hours at his hospital bedside after he collapsed in the street. It may be that alcohol was also involved.)

    Honestly, it is usually something like, guy bought 6 pills for himself and 3 friends. Guy he bought them from told him take 1/2 to start, if you like it take the other half. If you really want to blow your mind take 2, but no more than that. The dealer didn’t say 3 is safe but it’s probably safe. So he took half, he liked it, took the other 5, OD.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    This is like alcohol: most drunkenness probably comes not from deciding to get drunk, but deciding, after an evening of perfectly responsible drinking, that four more won't hurt.
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  174. “I didn’t finish Graham Greene’s “The Power and the Glory” about an underground “whiskey priest” in an anti-clerical Mexican state, but the 50 pages or so I read were extremely impressive. The book was living up to its title.”

    I’ve read several of his books recently-I had never heard of him, and started getting the books at a library surplus room. Each one has been fantastic. The ‘serious’ books and the ‘commercial’ books. Its one of those joys you get less frequently as you get older: to stumble on a new (to you) writer that is so good, you hope you never run out of his books, or you hope the book you are reading never ends.

    As an aside: when I was young, I used to read Stephen King pretty religiously. He was a writer who was slammed for his writing ability by serious writers, but remained popular (duh). I got a short story collection recently at the same library, read a few, and realized, hmm. Those critics had a point…

    Incidentally: I of course don’t mean that every worker is underutilized and bored. I know from personal experience, for instance, that doctors (specialists) tend to be grossly busy (to the point that I question their judgement: you work like a slave for 600K, but could hire someone else and live a normal life for 400K. What in the world are you doing?).

    Furthermore; anecdotally, it seems to me that the real beneficiaries of the modern economy are the upper middle class (i.e. the cube dwellers we are talking about). I imagine the working poor (60 years ago, factory workers. Today, Walmart employees) are living roughly similar lives. I also imagine, rhetoric aside, that the rich haven’t changed that much (Rockefeller vs. Bill Gates and Donald Trump. Today’s rich have airplanes instead of fantastic train cars, but technology aside, they seem pretty similar).

    But the middle class/upper middle class (my class-I guess really professional class) really do seem to have scored over the last two generations or so. I can remember as a kid, a common plot device in tv (Fantasy Island, or the Love Boat, or shows like that) was the retired couple who had saved up to finally go to Hawaii. Today, going to Hawaii (and the Caribbean, and so on) is practically passe. I have family members who are essentially lower middle class who go regularly. Middle Class houses are giant (again, my own experience: my neighbors are engineers, low end lawyers and nurses, pharmacists, and they live in 4,000 sf houses), middle class cars are awesome (Honda is great. Mercedes are common. Big, expensive pickup trucks are ubiquitous), middle class vacations are, as mentioned, great.

    I’m sure this is a pretty controversial statement, and I make it not from the big cities where the middle class is under siege, but from flyover country. But I’d rather have my house, my car, and my vacations over my father’s (and definitely over my grandfather’s), in spite of the fact we are in about the same financial situation.

    joe

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  175. Medicare Part D For Baby Boomer Steve Bannon; D For Defenestration By Trumpy

    All Drugs All The Time From Sailer Blog Commenters

    WASP Turds Hooking Chinese Twats On Drugs — Cabot

    I like The Cabots Who Make The Cheese

    Cotton Baron Spencer Uses “High On Own Supply” Bit:

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  176. @Lars Porsena
    Honestly, it is usually something like, guy bought 6 pills for himself and 3 friends. Guy he bought them from told him take 1/2 to start, if you like it take the other half. If you really want to blow your mind take 2, but no more than that. The dealer didn't say 3 is safe but it's probably safe. So he took half, he liked it, took the other 5, OD.

    This is like alcohol: most drunkenness probably comes not from deciding to get drunk, but deciding, after an evening of perfectly responsible drinking, that four more won’t hurt.

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  177. @YetAnotherAnon

    "Here comes the Nice
    Looking so good
    He makes me feel like no one else could
    He knows what I want
    He's got what I need
    He's always there
    When I need some speed"
     
    Steve Marriott was a great white soul singer.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD1m_esrbUg

    A year or so later (note the hippyish gear they're wearing) it was LSD and "Itchycoo Park".

    On topic, the ability to code for 12 hours non-stop definitely declines with age. It becomes pointless after about 11 hours (probably less by now, not had to do it for a few years), as anything else you write you're likely to scrap the following morning.

    Three years later he was back to meth and coke blowing out his voice with Humble Pie. Love or hate it, his intensity was off the charts.

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  178. @Ripple Earthdevil
    Molly? That's a common nickname for MDMA, which is in the amphetamine family but a totally different ball of wax entirely as far as effects go.

    I recall hearing that name, pluralized mollies as Joe wrote it, used for Dexedrine in the very late 1960s/early 1970s in Canada. The more popular name for them at the time was “pollutants”. They fell into the category of “uppers” as opposed to “downers” like Mandrax and Quaaludes. There was also — at the time — an allegedly psychedelic drug known as MDA, whose effects allegedly lasted for several hours. It was sold with the motto, “MDA keeps you tripping when other drugs have stopped”. I never heard of it again until MMDA/Ecstasy/”Molly” appeared.

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    • Replies: @L Bean
    I recall a very specific time period in the late 90s before MDMA was interchangeable w "molly", "molly" meant MDA - a much shorter, less intense, speedier high, a completely different drug really, without the deep bliss of MDMA for sure. But it was cheaper! Less Commitment! Shallower experience. I did it a few times but it wasn't worth the time really. One of my older roommates from this time told me that when he was young in the early 80s MDA was also called molly, when he used to buy it over the counter at clubs in Dallas.

    You ask a millennial what molly is and they'll tell you it's pure MDMA, as opposed to "Ecstacy". Total BS. MDA had a short lived debut as an ecstacy alternative in the late 90s, called "molly" to distinguish it from MDMA before the etymology morphed into the ambiguity it is now(miniscule amounts of MDMA cut with bqwhatever). This muddling occured around the time the whole underground electronic music scene went corporate and kiddie-focused, naturally.

    Anyway it's fascinating, these underground evolutions no? So "Molly" has had quite a few reincarnations. I honestly figured as much but had never heard about its pre-MDA meaning.

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  179. @YetAnotherAnon
    The good news is that Biles isn't cheating by being prescribed performance enhancing drugs which would otherwise be illegal for an athlete to take.

    No, she's a brave American "taking a stand against ADHD stigma".

    http://www.espn.com/espnw/voices/article/17602540/bravo-simone-biles-taking-stand-adhd-stigma

    "Biles isn't the only high achiever with the condition; a host of other highly decorated Olympians, including swimmer Michael Phelps, hockey player Cammi Granato and Michelle Carter, an American who won gold in the women's shot put in Rio, also have ADHD.

    The leaked medical records revealed that Biles takes Ritalin, a stimulant commonly used to treat ADHD. The hackers accused her of using an "illicit psycho-stimulant" while competing, but USA Gymnastics confirmed that Biles had been approved for a therapeutic-use exemption. "
     
    The incentive for athletes to be diagnosed with ADHD (then being able legally to take banned stimulants) is enormous.

    The incentive for athletes to be diagnosed with ADHD (then being able legally to take banned stimulants) is enormous.

    In the same vein, a surprising number of asthmatics have become top performers in their chosen discipline. For instance, four time Tour de France winner Chris Froome.

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    • Replies: @Not Raul
    I’ve been thinking the same thing since High School. I was on the Cross County team and wondered why so many of our top performers were asthmatic. Even as a teenager, I suspected that many weren’t.
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  180. @guest
    "It's as close as most people can get to an ego-dissolving experience"

    What about sleep or being out in nature? Or simply shutting up? Which are cheap, by the way.

    Such things may not actually dissolve your ego, but I have a feeling that's a meaningless phrase.

    Why would you want to do that, anyway? God gave you your ego.

    God gave humans a lot of things that he shouldn’t have. Did he really need to give anyone a sexual attraction to children? The ego is adaptive but it’s beyond obvious that it often does more harm than good.

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  181. @Pericles

    The incentive for athletes to be diagnosed with ADHD (then being able legally to take banned stimulants) is enormous.

     

    In the same vein, a surprising number of asthmatics have become top performers in their chosen discipline. For instance, four time Tour de France winner Chris Froome.

    I’ve been thinking the same thing since High School. I was on the Cross County team and wondered why so many of our top performers were asthmatic. Even as a teenager, I suspected that many weren’t.

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  182. The free market has spoken, and it says meth works.

    Immigration Raid Reveals Meth Lab At Nation’s Largest Kosher Meat Plant

    https://consumerist.com/2008/05/19/immigration-raid-reveals-meth-lab-at-nations-largest-kosher-meat-plant/

    President Trump commutes sentence of Sholom Rubashkin, ex-Iowa slaughterhouse executive

    https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/crime-and-courts/2017/12/20/president-trump-commutes-sentence-sholom-rubashkin-ex-iowa-slaughterhouse-executive/971291001/

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  183. I’ve had less than 20 cups of coffee in my life. But twenty years ago I did pop at least one No-Doze on a 24-hour non-stop U-Haul drive from Gainesville, FL to Kansas City, MO after graduating from UF. More recently, I might use a pill splitter to cut a No Doze into thirds and swallow just a third if I’m feeling lazy but need to do 6 or more hours of yardwork and home maintenance around the house on a Saturday.

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  184. @L Bean
    Speed - you want current examples? Not only are US fighter pilots still given it, but it is FUELING ISIS. The recent report about bags of Captagon being taped to each assault rifle delivery...too lazy to link, it was in that latest study about ISIS weapons.

    The domestic example? All of your blue collar work is aided by it - especially now, since so many are on opiates. Meth is the coffee of much of the current blue collar class.

    But the largest impact is in the silicon valley set. They are ALL on it. They are ALL assholes with no broad thought process. They are content to go "home" to their bunk bed crash pads shared with 10 other tweaker-bros. They take one before work, and one at lunch. Many of them take downers at night to go to sleep, just like they did when they were kids. The entire millenial generation has been taught to be drug addicts from toddlerhood. Erectile dysfunction, paranoia, shallow and impulsive thinking. But without Adderall, who would code the Dating Apps?? It's a wholesale robotification of society. Speed, code, speed, code, app-date. Or for the ugly, porn.

    I've seen so many on sites like this lament and ridicule the shallow compulsive, indiscriminate hook-up culture of today as well as the shallow SJW parrot-mob scene. Well, they're both the result of tweaking from toddlerhood. The "Men are trash" from feminists is also rooted in this - tweaking women who can't tell that their romantic interests are also tweakers, and are "let down" by it - while on the other side, the tweaker bros stay up all night on MRA forums highlighting all the disgusting behaviors of their tweaker baes.

    Coding more and longer...was it worth it? If you want to create an army of mindless compulsive drones, it certainly is.

    Literally every creative person suffers and declines after they introduce speed to their regime. I've seen it in my personal life and with "actual" artists. Speed say, in short bursts during international bombing runs(or for fueling a savage mercenary army) is its only practical application. So, iow, it's death.

    Speed – you want current examples? Not only are US fighter pilots still given it

    Not Naval aviators

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  185. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @yaqub the mad scientist
    Some famous speed songs: 6 Days on the Road by Dave Dudley, Highway Star by Deep Purple, and Motorhead, by Hawkwind, then Motorhead.

    I'd say meth has taken on quite a cultural role in Deplorableland, going back at least to the 40's. It certainly reinforced road/biker culture, and the "jacked" attitude in sports. If you're run with rough working class people, you know what I'm talking about.

    “Some famous speed songs:…”

    Pretty hard to top ‘Blue Collar Tweekers’:

    [MORE]

    I’ve seen them out at soco
    They’re pounding sixteen penny nails
    The truckers on the interstate
    Have been known to ride the rails
    The sweat is beating on the brow
    Can’t keep these fellas down
    ‘Cause those damned blue-collared tweekers
    Are runnin’ this here town

    I knew a man who hung drywall
    He hung it mighty quick
    A trip or two to the blue room
    Would help him do the trick
    His foreman would pat him on the back
    Whenever he would come around
    ‘Cause these dammed blue-collar tweekers
    Are beloved in this here town

    Now the union boys are there
    To protect us from all the corporate type
    While curious george’s drug patrol
    Is out here hunting snipe
    Now they try to tell me different
    But you know i ain’t no clown
    ‘Cause those damned blue-collar tweekers
    Are the backbone of this town

    Now the flame that burns twice as bright
    Burns only half as long
    My eyes are growing weary
    As i finalize this song
    So sit back and have a cup o’ joe
    And watch the wheels go round
    ‘Cause those damned blue-collar tweekers
    Have always run this town

    Primus

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    • Replies: @Negrolphin Pool
    I used to be a big Primus fan when I was in 6th and 7th grades. It hasn't aged well.
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  186. Better living through chemistry. Just think, now in California and in seven other states you can take your Adderall in the morning to let’s say mid afternoon to get your work done. The come from home from work and light up a marijuana joint to relax. It’s like the 60′s progressive dream come true.

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    • Replies: @Pericles
    California has recently legalized child prostitution, HIV transmission, and lmao weed. Seems sensible, right?
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  187. @Almost Missouri
    There are a few of the Unz commenters that I suspect of writing under the influence (WUI).

    Though some of them may suspect me of the same.

    New tagline for Unz.com:

    Safer than Speed; More Effective than Adderall!

    With the unemployed on heroin, the petite bourgeois on pot, the financial community on Adderal, and the managerial class on cocaine, things could not possibly be going any better for our society. Their “helpers” allow them to get through the day in our demanding, high-tech civilization.

    With the advent of robotics, I’m especially looking forward to the implementation of minimum incomes so that everyone can retreat to their garages and form more high-tech startups that will continue to revolutionize human society. That’s the promise, right?

    The more pessimistic scenario is that most people will sit on their front porches and shoot heroin, smoke pot, pop Adderal, and snort cocaine. I tend to be more of a realist than a pessimist, but I’m coming to believe the latter is the more likely outcome.

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    • Replies: @Sunbeam
    Thing is, ...

    This thread kinda makes me wonder if we have actually created a civilization we are suited for by our evolutionary history.

    At the end of the day, if you chopped down some trees, and split some logs into lumber the old fashioned way, are you more content and satisfied than if you got some numbers added to some abstract thing called a bank account, because you made another TPS report?

    Life today is awful abstract in a lot of ways. Maybe a lot of us aren't really suited for that by disposition.

    At the end of the day, imagine some guy who hunted a deer, then went back to a log cabin he made himself. He goes to sleep when it gets dark. Some voice from above in the dark, asks him if he is happy.

    Same guy is working in a cube farm. He leaves work, gets into a car, puts up with traffic, stops at Subway. Gets home. Watches the news then some sh*t about the Kardashians.

    He tries to go to sleep, then the same voice asks him the same question.

    Interesting question. At least to me.
    , @t-gordon
    Interesting take on our neurologically "manipulated" New World Awesomeness. As well, don't forget about the shit tons/milligrams/gallons/liters of licit, readily available SSRI's and alcohol consumed when our dopamine starts getting low and the effects become noticeable and "depressing". I forgot to mention sugar...
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  188. @Hodag
    Motorhead. You get Motorhead on speed.

    Chemical Brothers.

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  189. @Ripple Earthdevil
    There's always Dexy's Midnight Runners, Dexy being short for Dexadrine (dextroamphetamine)

    The Beatles were able to play all night every night in Hamburg with the help of amphetamines. They might not have been propelled into mega-stardom without that formative experience.

    While the Grateful Dead are better known as an LSD band their first album was recorded under the influence of amphetamines and you can hear it in their very early performances, before the acid became a more overt influence. Bassist Phil Lesh says he got Hep C (which led to his liver transplant in 1998) from a brief period of shooting speed early on.

    Beatles also got in a few brawls on speed, including one where they pulled off a surprise smackdown of Bruno Kochsmeider’s professional thugs. Not bad for the lads from Liverpool!

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  190. @Negrolphin Pool
    I know a guy with ADHD. The second grey box on this site is a list of diagnostic criteria for ADHD. It's as if someone spent a year with this guy and distilled his personality down to 18 characteristics. It's uncanny how perfectly the glove fits.

    As with most psychiatric disorders, most people probably display a few of the diagnostic criteria but not to the degree that it becomes incapacitating. However, there's no doubt that some people have debilitating ADHD. The problem is that ADHD drugs may do little to help them. Someone with harebrained impulsivity isn't going to get a bottle of speed then pace themselves over a month so they can work a desk job. They're going to snort the whole bottle up on a 5 day porn binge.

    As with most psychiatric disorders, most people probably display a few of the diagnostic criteria but not to the degree that it becomes incapacitating.

    Yes, it and it is very difficult to know if behaviors are actually symptoms of brain pathology, or just the personality of that person.

    When describing “symptoms” diagnosticians are naturally careful to avoid anything that sounds like moral judgment, so there are no such symptoms as “disobedient”, “disrespectful”, or “rude”.

    But children do vary enormously in personality without there being anything wrong with their brains, except that they are a pain in the ass.

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Not sure what year this is from, "Oppositional Defiant Disorder" is a thing. And I have met psychiatrists (you'll never see this coming but they were recently arrived Indians) who thought that wanting to legally own a firearm was itself a proof of instability and so a disqualification from legally owning a firearm. With reasoning like that, he should've been a lawyer.
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  191. There’s a nice new ADD amphetamine out called Vyvanse. One 70 mg (?) lasts about 12 hours. Very effective, really improved my productivity. Unfortunately, my Israeli socialized medicine doctor refused to prescribe it to me, despite having met all the criteria; she didn’t think I “needed” it. (I had received a one-off prescription from a private doctor/friend.)
    I now self-medicate by chewing qat (or khat) which is legal here. It’s fairly nasty but gets the job done, more or less. The locally grown stuff is fine, but the strongest variety is “Habashi” which is flown in from Ethiopia every Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday.

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  192. @JW Bell
    Adderall has little long term effect similar to coffee. The military switched to Modafinil due the greater benefits of it.

    As Patrick Henry said, “give me Librium or give me Meth!”

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  193. @Jonathan Mason

    As with most psychiatric disorders, most people probably display a few of the diagnostic criteria but not to the degree that it becomes incapacitating.
     
    Yes, it and it is very difficult to know if behaviors are actually symptoms of brain pathology, or just the personality of that person.

    When describing "symptoms" diagnosticians are naturally careful to avoid anything that sounds like moral judgment, so there are no such symptoms as "disobedient", "disrespectful", or "rude".

    But children do vary enormously in personality without there being anything wrong with their brains, except that they are a pain in the ass.

    Not sure what year this is from, “Oppositional Defiant Disorder” is a thing. And I have met psychiatrists (you’ll never see this coming but they were recently arrived Indians) who thought that wanting to legally own a firearm was itself a proof of instability and so a disqualification from legally owning a firearm. With reasoning like that, he should’ve been a lawyer.

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    • Replies: @ScarletNumber

    With reasoning like that, he should’ve been a lawyer.
     
    SPOILER ALERTThis is literally a Catch 22
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  194. @anonymous-antiskynetist
    All that 60s culture was actually produced on speed. The musicians, artists, writers, everyone was on it. Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Andy Warhol, Hunter Thompson, all of them. It was just there in the background getting the actual work done while LSD got all the glory. It's right there in Tom Wolfe's book on Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters. Speed was like coffee to them.

    It’s right there in Tom Wolfe’s book on Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters. Speed was like coffee to them.

    This is a good observation. In Acid Test, Wolfe is obviously focused on LSD and its effects, because it was the new, new thing in the hippies-r-us drugs scene. But I recall Wolfe making repeated offhand mentions of various Pranksters getting shit done (e.g. event set-up, sound work, etc.) when they’re on speed — especially Babbs and Cassady, if I recall correctly?

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  195. @CJ
    I recall hearing that name, pluralized mollies as Joe wrote it, used for Dexedrine in the very late 1960s/early 1970s in Canada. The more popular name for them at the time was "pollutants". They fell into the category of "uppers" as opposed to "downers" like Mandrax and Quaaludes. There was also -- at the time -- an allegedly psychedelic drug known as MDA, whose effects allegedly lasted for several hours. It was sold with the motto, "MDA keeps you tripping when other drugs have stopped". I never heard of it again until MMDA/Ecstasy/"Molly" appeared.

    I recall a very specific time period in the late 90s before MDMA was interchangeable w “molly”, “molly” meant MDA – a much shorter, less intense, speedier high, a completely different drug really, without the deep bliss of MDMA for sure. But it was cheaper! Less Commitment! Shallower experience. I did it a few times but it wasn’t worth the time really. One of my older roommates from this time told me that when he was young in the early 80s MDA was also called molly, when he used to buy it over the counter at clubs in Dallas.

    You ask a millennial what molly is and they’ll tell you it’s pure MDMA, as opposed to “Ecstacy”. Total BS. MDA had a short lived debut as an ecstacy alternative in the late 90s, called “molly” to distinguish it from MDMA before the etymology morphed into the ambiguity it is now(miniscule amounts of MDMA cut with bqwhatever). This muddling occured around the time the whole underground electronic music scene went corporate and kiddie-focused, naturally.

    Anyway it’s fascinating, these underground evolutions no? So “Molly” has had quite a few reincarnations. I honestly figured as much but had never heard about its pre-MDA meaning.

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  196. The taking of psychiatric medicines by the healthy to improve mental acuity is an ancient practice. Burton, in his Anatomy of Melancholy writes:

    “Black hellebore, that most renowned plant, and famous purger of melancholy, which all antiquity so much used and admired, was first found out by Melampodius a shepherd, as Pliny records, lib. 25. cap. 5. [4220]who, seeing it to purge his goats when they raved, practised it upon Elige and Calene, King Praetus’ daughters, that ruled in Arcadia, near the fountain Clitorius, and restored them to their former health. In Hippocrates’s time it was in only request, insomuch that he writ a book of it, a fragment of which remains yet. … They that were sound commonly took it to quicken their wits, (as Ennius of old, non nisi potus ad arma—­prosiluit dicenda, and as our poets drink sack to improve their inventions (I find it so registered by Agellius lib. 17. cap. 15.) Carneades the academic, when he was to write against Zeno the stoic, purged himself with hellebore first, which Petronius puts upon Chrysippus. In such esteem it continued for many ages, till at length Mesue and some other Arabians began to reject and reprehend it, upon whose authority for many following lustres, it was much debased and quite out of request, held to be poison and no medicine…” [emphasis mine]

    Helleborus niger is strongly purgative and also a cardiac stimulant; it was held to purge “black bile,” an excess of which was thought in classical antiquity and long afterwards to lead to melancholia, then understood to mean what we now call manic-depressive psychosis or bipolar syndrome. Today ADHD is often associated with hypomanic symptoms. I’m not sure how hellebore might affect them but it is remarkable to see that a medication anciently used to treat such a condition was also thought to sharpen the wits of those in sound mental health – and that a parallel for reasoning this exists with Adderall and similar drugs today.

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  197. @TheJester
    With the unemployed on heroin, the petite bourgeois on pot, the financial community on Adderal, and the managerial class on cocaine, things could not possibly be going any better for our society. Their "helpers" allow them to get through the day in our demanding, high-tech civilization.

    With the advent of robotics, I'm especially looking forward to the implementation of minimum incomes so that everyone can retreat to their garages and form more high-tech startups that will continue to revolutionize human society. That's the promise, right?

    The more pessimistic scenario is that most people will sit on their front porches and shoot heroin, smoke pot, pop Adderal, and snort cocaine. I tend to be more of a realist than a pessimist, but I'm coming to believe the latter is the more likely outcome.

    Thing is, …

    This thread kinda makes me wonder if we have actually created a civilization we are suited for by our evolutionary history.

    At the end of the day, if you chopped down some trees, and split some logs into lumber the old fashioned way, are you more content and satisfied than if you got some numbers added to some abstract thing called a bank account, because you made another TPS report?

    Life today is awful abstract in a lot of ways. Maybe a lot of us aren’t really suited for that by disposition.

    At the end of the day, imagine some guy who hunted a deer, then went back to a log cabin he made himself. He goes to sleep when it gets dark. Some voice from above in the dark, asks him if he is happy.

    Same guy is working in a cube farm. He leaves work, gets into a car, puts up with traffic, stops at Subway. Gets home. Watches the news then some sh*t about the Kardashians.

    He tries to go to sleep, then the same voice asks him the same question.

    Interesting question. At least to me.

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    • Replies: @Jim Don Bob
    I have written code for a long time and still enjoy it. But the most satisfying work I have ever done is framing houses. Sawing wood, building walls, hammering nails, standing on the roof, and at the end of the day looking at what you've accomplished.
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  198. @Opinionator

    Meanwhile, Adderall works for people whether they “have” “ADHD” or not. It may work better for people with ADHD – a lot of them report an almost “magical” effect – but it works at least a little for most people. There is a vast literature trying to disprove this. Its main strategy is to show Adderall doesn’t enhance cognition in healthy people. Fine. But mostly it doesn’t enhance cognition in people with ADHD either. People aren’t using Adderall to get smart, they’re using it to focus.
     
    Is it even possible clearly to distinguish between "cognition" and "focus"? If enhanced "focus" translates to improved performance on cognitive tasks, how is that not an enhancement of "cognition"?

    New research claims that children on ADHD drugs had no better grades than their counterparts who didn’t take the drugs. I’ll try to find it….

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323368704578593660384362292

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Not an argument if the prescribed kids started behind the normies (because then it's "proving" that the drugs "work" in bringing the ADHD's down to normal), very interesting if the variable group was normal kids with no ADHD who just thought that Ritalin was good and all that was called for was a market.
    , @Opinionator
    Thanks
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  199. @YetAnotherAnon
    Sounds a bit like LSD-using advice from the 70s.


    But on some occasions the street variety can kill you, ne c'est pas? Or are all those grieving parents in the papers talking nonsense? (A friend's 15 year old son took 'E' and she spent an unpleasant 24 hours at his hospital bedside after he collapsed in the street. It may be that alcohol was also involved.)

    Most ecstasy and MDMA deaths you read about are the result of dehydration. Dumb teenager takes more than generally recommended and proceeds to drink nothing but hard liquor during seven hours of raving. Boom, desiccated corpse.

    I’ve taken molly a handful of times and it’s always hit me like slightly edgier adderall (don’t take uppers all the time if you don’t want to grind your teeth to dust). But then I’ve taken mushrooms and that resulted in nothing more than a mildly amusing afternoon, so maybe I’m just psychologically inert.

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  200. @CJ
    Famous Lemmy quote: "I was kicked out of Hawkwind for doing the wrong drugs."

    Lemmy said in the recent documentary about him that a band has to agree on what drugs to take. Half the band can’t do uppers while the other half are on downers. That led him to leave Hawkwind for Motorhead.

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  201. @guest
    "the idea that Adderall for people with ADD is like speed"

    It's not like speed, it is speed. Whether you have ADD or not (if ADD actually exists).

    "A better name for ADD would be Attention Management Disorder"

    No, the idea is that your attention is deficient. "Attention Management Disorder" might imply you're overmanaging your attention, which would be inaccurate.

    Strictly speaking, not really. Attention to one thing over a period of time versus attention to many things over a period of time. Still “attention.”

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    • Replies: @guest
    Well, there's attention in the sense of simple noticing. Like you might reflexively notice an object zooming past your field of view. If you immediately notice something else after that happens, it's not attention in another sense. Which is taking special interest in something, extended over a period of time longer than half a second. I don't think the "attention" in "attention deficit" consists of mere noticing. And that wouldn't be what comes to mind when 99 out of 100 people hear it.

    Saying something like "I have too much attention because my attention is constantly being distracted" reminds me of something I once heard about old people. Their minds aren't slow, as we've been lead to believe. Or so this person claimed. You see, they have too much activity going on upstairs, and it takes time to sort through it all.

    What's the difference between that and being slow, I wonder. There is none.

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  202. @L Bean
    Speed - you want current examples? Not only are US fighter pilots still given it, but it is FUELING ISIS. The recent report about bags of Captagon being taped to each assault rifle delivery...too lazy to link, it was in that latest study about ISIS weapons.

    The domestic example? All of your blue collar work is aided by it - especially now, since so many are on opiates. Meth is the coffee of much of the current blue collar class.

    But the largest impact is in the silicon valley set. They are ALL on it. They are ALL assholes with no broad thought process. They are content to go "home" to their bunk bed crash pads shared with 10 other tweaker-bros. They take one before work, and one at lunch. Many of them take downers at night to go to sleep, just like they did when they were kids. The entire millenial generation has been taught to be drug addicts from toddlerhood. Erectile dysfunction, paranoia, shallow and impulsive thinking. But without Adderall, who would code the Dating Apps?? It's a wholesale robotification of society. Speed, code, speed, code, app-date. Or for the ugly, porn.

    I've seen so many on sites like this lament and ridicule the shallow compulsive, indiscriminate hook-up culture of today as well as the shallow SJW parrot-mob scene. Well, they're both the result of tweaking from toddlerhood. The "Men are trash" from feminists is also rooted in this - tweaking women who can't tell that their romantic interests are also tweakers, and are "let down" by it - while on the other side, the tweaker bros stay up all night on MRA forums highlighting all the disgusting behaviors of their tweaker baes.

    Coding more and longer...was it worth it? If you want to create an army of mindless compulsive drones, it certainly is.

    Literally every creative person suffers and declines after they introduce speed to their regime. I've seen it in my personal life and with "actual" artists. Speed say, in short bursts during international bombing runs(or for fueling a savage mercenary army) is its only practical application. So, iow, it's death.

    Why would a woman be “let down” about not knowing whether her romantic interest is a “tweaker”?

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  203. @J.Ross
    Jacob Sullum listed it as such in one of his libertarian legalization pieces. I have done sugar fasts where by far the most striking results were not with weight but with stability of mood. Every celebration menu has lots of sugar to guarantee guest happiness.
    Sullum's book Saying Yes is the best one-volume treatment of American drug use.

    Thanks. Does “sugar” as used here include breads, rice, potatoes?

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Pretty sure I said "table sugar," sorry if I was unclear. Carbs in general would probably have a milder but comparable effect, but kids today (and when I was one) really do consume far more refined white granular cane sugar than anybody understands. I remember eating spoonfuls of it like it was a food in itself.
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  204. @Swizzle Stick
    New research claims that children on ADHD drugs had no better grades than their counterparts who didn't take the drugs. I'll try to find it....

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323368704578593660384362292

    Not an argument if the prescribed kids started behind the normies (because then it’s “proving” that the drugs “work” in bringing the ADHD’s down to normal), very interesting if the variable group was normal kids with no ADHD who just thought that Ritalin was good and all that was called for was a market.

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  205. @Swizzle Stick
    New research claims that children on ADHD drugs had no better grades than their counterparts who didn't take the drugs. I'll try to find it....

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887323368704578593660384362292

    Thanks

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  206. @joeyjoejoe
    "The human brain wasn’t built for accounting or software engineering. A few lucky people can do these things ten hours a day, every day, with a smile. The rest of us start fidgeting and checking our cell phone somewhere around the thirty minute mark."


    I've often thought that this describes cubicle life in general-not just for software engineers and accounting (as does Dilbert). When I was a cubicle dweller (in government service, which I had thought was unusually low-pressure), I found that 1) I was able to get my proscribed work done in far less than 8 hours, and 2) I spent my 'extra' time surfing the internet and idling. Everybody did.

    However, talking to other, private sector cubicle dwellers (from reasonably high-end engineering to graphic design and traditional business), I learned that everybody does that. Coffee breaks, chit chat, and irrelevance seem to be standard behavior in the working world. Work, other than during brief deadline-induced crises, is pretty easy.

    I often wondered how large organizations could do it-could pay people to do essentially 4 (or less) hours of productive work in an 8 hour day. I also thought that genuinely successful individuals were those who could focus, and actually be productive, their full 8 hours. The rest of us stumble through profissional life getting a little bit done in between unnecessary meetings, the Drudge Report, coffee breaks, and flirting.

    I assume that, when we talk about the increase in production caused by technological progress, THAT is where the extra is going-not in reducing our work days (to 6 or 4 hours) but in allowing us to goof off while at work. We still spend 8 hours a day at work-we just produce less while there. Robots in the factory floor, industrial-scale farming, and computer efficiency allow us to do so.

    joe

    The toughest part about being a teacher is that when they are at work, they are always on. That’s why they need so much time off.

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  207. @Opinionator
    Thanks. Does "sugar" as used here include breads, rice, potatoes?

    Pretty sure I said “table sugar,” sorry if I was unclear. Carbs in general would probably have a milder but comparable effect, but kids today (and when I was one) really do consume far more refined white granular cane sugar than anybody understands. I remember eating spoonfuls of it like it was a food in itself.

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  208. @J.Ross
    Not sure what year this is from, "Oppositional Defiant Disorder" is a thing. And I have met psychiatrists (you'll never see this coming but they were recently arrived Indians) who thought that wanting to legally own a firearm was itself a proof of instability and so a disqualification from legally owning a firearm. With reasoning like that, he should've been a lawyer.

    With reasoning like that, he should’ve been a lawyer.

    SPOILER ALERT

    [MORE]
    This is literally a Catch 22

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    Look up Brandon Raub, this was literally their plan, to over-diagnose insanity and then have to take the guns on "medical" grounds. The Raub situation blew up in their faces because they were so arrogant and unjust. The Rutherford Institute (libertarian Constitutionalists) jumped in pro bono and the judge angrily threw the whole thing out and ordered Raub's release that day. The best part is, Raub wasn't a gun owner anyway, they just assumed he was.
    We need to not be content with occasionally winning considering these people are always cheating and trying to completely overturn the Constitution. It is not okay for people to be radical leftists in the same way that it is okay for people to be of almost every other political stripe.
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  209. @Opinionator
    Strictly speaking, not really. Attention to one thing over a period of time versus attention to many things over a period of time. Still "attention."

    Well, there’s attention in the sense of simple noticing. Like you might reflexively notice an object zooming past your field of view. If you immediately notice something else after that happens, it’s not attention in another sense. Which is taking special interest in something, extended over a period of time longer than half a second. I don’t think the “attention” in “attention deficit” consists of mere noticing. And that wouldn’t be what comes to mind when 99 out of 100 people hear it.

    Saying something like “I have too much attention because my attention is constantly being distracted” reminds me of something I once heard about old people. Their minds aren’t slow, as we’ve been lead to believe. Or so this person claimed. You see, they have too much activity going on upstairs, and it takes time to sort through it all.

    What’s the difference between that and being slow, I wonder. There is none.

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  210. @L Bean
    And that this silicon valley bro subculture has so embraced it as a daily bread, and minimizing or flat out denying the negative impacts just further proves how brain damaged and subpar their constitutions were in the first place. No generation has embraced tweaking en masse like this, as a way of being - sure cocaine etc had their moments in history but it never *inspired* anything, unless you value nonsense like Freud, yacht rock, and most disco music. To say that the great poets and cultural figures needed it to excel is ahistorical, it was recreational and perfunctory to a preconceived goal, always. Not fucking mother's milk like the autists of SanFran see it. This is why the tech industry is so "style over substance" these days why vast resources go to spinning failures into successes.

    Why are so many writers drunks, people once asked. Something to do with the personality type, maybe. Or it brought forth their muses.

    The answer might be no more complicated than that they can get away with it, because they can work around their drunkenness. Much harder if you have to sit still nine to five while people are watching. Which can be done, and is all the time. Just not as often.

    Same with rock stars, who aren’t held to very high standards in live performance. They aren’t expected to do much else, besides dealing with the media, which they can usually sleepwalk through, and producing new material, which they can take their sweet time about. They’re also cut an enormous length of slack by society.

    Mostly, drugs are what you can get away with.

    I do enjoy yacht rock (Steve Winwood counts, right?) and disco, by the way. Though I despise Freud.

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  211. @J.Ross
    Yeah, Schiller and Coleridge were just winging it.

    Coleridge was a massive plagiarizer, for what it’s worth. Maybe he would’ve been more original without the opium.

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  212. @Anon
    Getting a full night's sleep, eating properly, and adding moderate exercise is still the best formula. Frankly, if you're not creative without drugs or alcohol, you were not meant to do creative work. Creative people don't need enhancers.

    The “not meant to do creative work” part is bunk. But you’re right it would be better for them to be straighter, in general. They’d get more done.

    We’d lose all the inspiration from drug, but I’m sure that’s been overrated. And we’d gain the stuff people would’ve created had they not burned themselves out.

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  213. @Negrolphin Pool
    The documentary Bigger, Stronger, Faster does an excellent job of litigating just that point. The film showcases the hypocrisy of a society awash in performance enhancing drugs that bans their use in sports, while basing entire industries on their promotion elsewhere.

    I don’t see how that’s hypocritical. It’s like saying we’re two-faced for not having literal goal lines in other parts of life.

    The whole point of sports is that unlike much of the rest of life, they have well-defined rules. Participants voluntarily agree to compete within these rules (sometimes with the intention to cheat), and that sets their play apart from, for instance, your morning commute. Which has rules of its own, of course, but is not as strictly organized.

    Now, you may not like the rules, but what does it matter that you can take drugs to get ahead over here, yet are barred from doing so in the NFL? Hey, did you notice that you can’t go around tackling people in regular life? “What hypocrites we are for calling it a sack on a football field and assault on the street,” said the junior high kid who just learned the word “hypocrisy.”

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    • Replies: @J.Ross
    This is a very important point. Everything that is happening with the left right now is because they're always inside their heads, working with convenient hypotheticals instead of inconvenient truth, not appreciating how hard or impossible something can be. Thus it makes perfect sense to them that Somali refugees "could" be ideal citizens in a high-tech economy (after all, they "could"). Reasoning with likelihood looks like bigotry to them because they have never bet badly and lost badly.
    , @Negrolphin Pool
    An assault on the street is wholly unlike a sack on a football field. A typical street assault involves one or multiple of the following: asymmetry of force, an unwilling participant, an element of surprise and the likelihood or possibility of great bodily injury. Generally speaking, none of those things are present on a football field. Now take two men, suited up in helmets and pads, with one knocking the other over on the sidewalk. Is that likely to be prosecuted as an assault? If not, assaults and sackings are probably too disparate to be compared as like things. One is X, the other, Y.

    However, examples of using performance enhancing drugs to excel at a professional activity seem to me to be fundamentally similar. In what fundamental way does a Wall St. trader using speed differ from a football player using steroids? Both are doing so to give themselves a competitive edge against the field and reach their highest potential. Both are X.

    You can justify the contextual difference in treatment by saying that "it's permitted there but not here". But while that may provide justification satisfactory to the participants, it does little to shed light on how X should be universally viewed. And no matter how it's viewed, it shouldn't be called X here then not-X there.

    The point the movie was trying to make, I believe, was that it is hypocritical to call it X here and not-X there.
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  214. @guest
    I don't see how that's hypocritical. It's like saying we're two-faced for not having literal goal lines in other parts of life.

    The whole point of sports is that unlike much of the rest of life, they have well-defined rules. Participants voluntarily agree to compete within these rules (sometimes with the intention to cheat), and that sets their play apart from, for instance, your morning commute. Which has rules of its own, of course, but is not as strictly organized.

    Now, you may not like the rules, but what does it matter that you can take drugs to get ahead over here, yet are barred from doing so in the NFL? Hey, did you notice that you can't go around tackling people in regular life? "What hypocrites we are for calling it a sack on a football field and assault on the street," said the junior high kid who just learned the word "hypocrisy."

    This is a very important point. Everything that is happening with the left right now is because they’re always inside their heads, working with convenient hypotheticals instead of inconvenient truth, not appreciating how hard or impossible something can be. Thus it makes perfect sense to them that Somali refugees “could” be ideal citizens in a high-tech economy (after all, they “could”). Reasoning with likelihood looks like bigotry to them because they have never bet badly and lost badly.

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  215. @George Taylor
    Better living through chemistry. Just think, now in California and in seven other states you can take your Adderall in the morning to let's say mid afternoon to get your work done. The come from home from work and light up a marijuana joint to relax. It's like the 60's progressive dream come true.

    California has recently legalized child prostitution, HIV transmission, and lmao weed. Seems sensible, right?

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  216. @Travis
    increased productivity has allowed many firms to reduce the numbers of workers by 50% and still increase production over the last 25 years. In my career as a Trader on wall street we experienced a huge increase in productivity which resulted in a 90% reduction of workers while the amount of shares traded rose tenfold...back in the 90s most trading of NASDAQ equities occurred over the phone...as a market maker we were on the phone , non-stop from 9:30 AM until 4:00 , lunch was delivered to us on our desk, and we ate while trading...

    by 1999 more of the NASDAQ trading was now being done electronically, yet 50% of the trading still was done via telephone...When Goldman Sachs bought us in 2001 we had about 2,000 employees, about 400 working on the NYSE floor and another 500 trading NASDAQ stocks upstairs...joining the 600 Goldman upstairs traders....Goldman had no presence on the NYSE floor until they acquired us. Now with computers and algorithms the number of traders has declined by 80%......instead of 1,200 upstairs NASDAQ traders at Goldman, they have just 300 left.....it also effected our clients. back in 2004 a large hedge fund may have had 30 equity traders, by 2015 they only required 5 as the algorithms helped reduce the required number of traders, a trader could now trade more stocks, more efficiently via the use of altos and no longer needed to make calls to traders to buy and sell large positions...

    The American Stock Exchange, no longer exists in physical form....thousands of traders and clerks worked there....no longer. Same with the NY Mercantile Exchange, which was the focus of the climatic scene in Trading Places....all those traders lost their jobs due to computers, and now trading is much less costly and anyone can participate from their basements at home via the internet...The NYSE floor once employed thousands , yet today just a few hundred work on the floor, placed their for entertainment value..The Big Board is now little more than a Big Tent for a phony media circus of photo-ops and cable-news talking heads. Increased productivity resulted in the loss of thousands of trading jobs, replaced by computers and algorithms which are far more efficient than people.

    And so civilisation and human happiness progresses, or maybe not.

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  217. @TheJester
    With the unemployed on heroin, the petite bourgeois on pot, the financial community on Adderal, and the managerial class on cocaine, things could not possibly be going any better for our society. Their "helpers" allow them to get through the day in our demanding, high-tech civilization.

    With the advent of robotics, I'm especially looking forward to the implementation of minimum incomes so that everyone can retreat to their garages and form more high-tech startups that will continue to revolutionize human society. That's the promise, right?

    The more pessimistic scenario is that most people will sit on their front porches and shoot heroin, smoke pot, pop Adderal, and snort cocaine. I tend to be more of a realist than a pessimist, but I'm coming to believe the latter is the more likely outcome.

    Interesting take on our neurologically “manipulated” New World Awesomeness. As well, don’t forget about the shit tons/milligrams/gallons/liters of licit, readily available SSRI’s and alcohol consumed when our dopamine starts getting low and the effects become noticeable and “depressing”. I forgot to mention sugar…

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  218. @yaqub the mad scientist
    That Jefferson Airplane live album sounds like they're on meth - way faster tempos on several songs and an overall agressive feel. It seems the west coast hip crowd did a lot of meth after the initial LSD phase.

    From their Volunteers album, there is likely counterevidence in the song “Hey Frederick”:

    ..How many machine men will you see before you
    Stop believing that speed
    Will slide down on you
    Like brakes in bad weather…

    1969 was not likely after the LSD phase and their lyrics indicate they may already have had some (friends with) bad experiences with amphetamines.

    Also, from the same era in the SF Bay area, we have Philip K. Dick who apparently was dealing and using large quantities of amphetamine to support his writing habit. A bout of malignant high blood pressure February and March 1974 sent him off on a religious experience detailed in his voluminous “Exigesis” about how we’re living in something of a virtual reality.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exegesis_of_Philip_K._Dick

    That’s quite a coincidence because those were the months during which the first multiplayer VR (in the sense of 3D space in which people interact from the first person perspective) manifest on the PLATO network:

    He died a little over a decade later of stroke probably brought on by high blood pressure.

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  219. @Sunbeam
    Thing is, ...

    This thread kinda makes me wonder if we have actually created a civilization we are suited for by our evolutionary history.

    At the end of the day, if you chopped down some trees, and split some logs into lumber the old fashioned way, are you more content and satisfied than if you got some numbers added to some abstract thing called a bank account, because you made another TPS report?

    Life today is awful abstract in a lot of ways. Maybe a lot of us aren't really suited for that by disposition.

    At the end of the day, imagine some guy who hunted a deer, then went back to a log cabin he made himself. He goes to sleep when it gets dark. Some voice from above in the dark, asks him if he is happy.

    Same guy is working in a cube farm. He leaves work, gets into a car, puts up with traffic, stops at Subway. Gets home. Watches the news then some sh*t about the Kardashians.

    He tries to go to sleep, then the same voice asks him the same question.

    Interesting question. At least to me.

    I have written code for a long time and still enjoy it. But the most satisfying work I have ever done is framing houses. Sawing wood, building walls, hammering nails, standing on the roof, and at the end of the day looking at what you’ve accomplished.

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  220. @guest
    I don't see how that's hypocritical. It's like saying we're two-faced for not having literal goal lines in other parts of life.

    The whole point of sports is that unlike much of the rest of life, they have well-defined rules. Participants voluntarily agree to compete within these rules (sometimes with the intention to cheat), and that sets their play apart from, for instance, your morning commute. Which has rules of its own, of course, but is not as strictly organized.

    Now, you may not like the rules, but what does it matter that you can take drugs to get ahead over here, yet are barred from doing so in the NFL? Hey, did you notice that you can't go around tackling people in regular life? "What hypocrites we are for calling it a sack on a football field and assault on the street," said the junior high kid who just learned the word "hypocrisy."

    An assault on the street is wholly unlike a sack on a football field. A typical street assault involves one or multiple of the following: asymmetry of force, an unwilling participant, an element of surprise and the likelihood or possibility of great bodily injury. Generally speaking, none of those things are present on a football field. Now take two men, suited up in helmets and pads, with one knocking the other over on the sidewalk. Is that likely to be prosecuted as an assault? If not, assaults and sackings are probably too disparate to be compared as like things. One is X, the other, Y.

    However, examples of using performance enhancing drugs to excel at a professional activity seem to me to be fundamentally similar. In what fundamental way does a Wall St. trader using speed differ from a football player using steroids? Both are doing so to give themselves a competitive edge against the field and reach their highest potential. Both are X.

    You can justify the contextual difference in treatment by saying that “it’s permitted there but not here”. But while that may provide justification satisfactory to the participants, it does little to shed light on how X should be universally viewed. And no matter how it’s viewed, it shouldn’t be called X here then not-X there.

    The point the movie was trying to make, I believe, was that it is hypocritical to call it X here and not-X there.

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  221. @Anonymous
    "Some famous speed songs:..."

    Pretty hard to top 'Blue Collar Tweekers':

    I've seen them out at soco
    They're pounding sixteen penny nails
    The truckers on the interstate
    Have been known to ride the rails
    The sweat is beating on the brow
    Can't keep these fellas down
    'Cause those damned blue-collared tweekers
    Are runnin' this here town

    I knew a man who hung drywall
    He hung it mighty quick
    A trip or two to the blue room
    Would help him do the trick
    His foreman would pat him on the back
    Whenever he would come around
    'Cause these dammed blue-collar tweekers
    Are beloved in this here town

    Now the union boys are there
    To protect us from all the corporate type
    While curious george's drug patrol
    Is out here hunting snipe
    Now they try to tell me different
    But you know i ain't no clown
    'Cause those damned blue-collar tweekers
    Are the backbone of this town

    Now the flame that burns twice as bright
    Burns only half as long
    My eyes are growing weary
    As i finalize this song
    So sit back and have a cup o' joe
    And watch the wheels go round
    'Cause those damned blue-collar tweekers
    Have always run this town

    Primus

    I used to be a big Primus fan when I was in 6th and 7th grades. It hasn’t aged well.

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  222. @ScarletNumber

    With reasoning like that, he should’ve been a lawyer.
     
    SPOILER ALERTThis is literally a Catch 22

    Look up Brandon Raub, this was literally their plan, to over-diagnose insanity and then have to take the guns on “medical” grounds. The Raub situation blew up in their faces because they were so arrogant and unjust. The Rutherford Institute (libertarian Constitutionalists) jumped in pro bono and the judge angrily threw the whole thing out and ordered Raub’s release that day. The best part is, Raub wasn’t a gun owner anyway, they just assumed he was.
    We need to not be content with occasionally winning considering these people are always cheating and trying to completely overturn the Constitution. It is not okay for people to be radical leftists in the same way that it is okay for people to be of almost every other political stripe.

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