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From the New York Daily News opinion section (of the two tabloids in New York, the Post leans right and the Daily News left):

What the gifted education fight is really about
By DAVID KIRKLAND
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS |
SEP 20, 2019 | 10:00 AM

As a member of New York City’s School Diversity Advisory Group, I feel compelled to say something blunt about those attacking one of the core recommendations of our recent report. Criticisms of the panel’s call to rethink gifted education in the city are not about children. They’re about race.

The plain fact is that, in a city where the predominant student population is black and Latinx, enrichment opportunities are skewed against children in these groups. Last year, 17% of kindergarteners in the city’s public schools were white; 39% of kindergarteners in the city’s gifted and talented education programs were. By contrast, 65% of kindergarteners were Latinx or black; just 18% were offered seats in G&T programs and schools.

Oddly, the word “Asian” doesn’t appear in this op-ed, even though the same report that Mr. Kirkland is getting his numbers from shows that Asians outnumber whites in NYC schools overall, 18% to 17%, and in share of Gifted and Talented, 42% to 39%:

Here’s the graph from Mr. Kirkland’s group’s own report:

Yet some white commentators see this statistical disconnect as somehow natural, and the desire to confront it as somehow contrary to the notion of a meritocracy.

In its desire to address “the legacy of racism, together with a false meritocracy in America today that keeps children trapped where they are,” George Packer, a staff writer for the Atlantic, accused the Department of Education of playing identity politics. …

When you read his article closely, you realized that, by “families of all races,” Packer really means white families.

This is consistent with much of the opposition to the advisory group’s recommendation to rethink gifted education and otherwise do away with screened admission that limits choices for black and Latinx people. Though cloaked in language that attempts to make the focus on race less obvious, it boils down to a defense of systems that have unfairly and disproportionately benefited whites for generations.

For example, New York Post staff writers Julia Marsh and Selim Algar quote a parent named Lianne saying, “I’m one of those middle-class families that’s on the fence about moving out of New York because I have a son that I’m now applying to middle school and I have no faith that he’ll get into a good school…Do you want to lose families like me?”

Why would a school system value retaining families at the expense of families in the system who have nowhere else to go? This concern suggests that white children naturally deserve exception and, by virtue of that exceptionalism, separate spaces in which to learn.

It also plays on stereotypes that black and brown bodies, in contrast to a middle-class white norm, somehow lack virtue and merit or other fictive devices employed to legitimate the lies that uphold separate and unequal education.

… This is a modern-day-eugenics project — one manufactured based on spurious science and reinforced by institutional consent. …

Kirkland is the executive director of the NYU Metropolitan Center for Research on Equity and the Transformation of Schools, and professor of urban education at New York University.

It’s hard to argue with their logic (just with their facts).

It would be interesting if National Book Award winner George Packer, the son of two Stanford professors, came out and said, “Actually … my kids are smarter.” But he seems like a dedicated dad who doesn’t want to have his career canceled, which would have detrimental effects on his children’s lives. So he’s trying to finesse this.

But the Left is increasingly gearing up for demanding total surrender on the part of white parents like Packer.

 
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  1. Of course we are not going to worry about the fate of Asians in New York city, but we should also not worry about the fate of whites who are likely to go to the selective public schools. Overwhelmingly their parents are SWPL/SJW whites and they will likely mature to be so too. Sure, a few right whites are going to take the hit if the selective schools are filled by quota, but G*d will recognize his won.

    New York City has to be destroyed in order to save her.

    • Replies: @Hhsiii
    I live in NYC so this all hits close to home. So far so good for my kids but we’ll see how far they take this. I don’t think NYC will be destroyed any time soon. People still seem to want to visit.

    The DOE was encouraging all parents to let their kids take time off from school for the climate strike. Our daughter’s primary school sent around an email. Absences are usually strictly scrutinized and counted against your applications to certain middle and high schools, but would be excused to attend the climate strike.

    I didn’t give permission. Not that I feel that strongly about the issue one way or another. I asked my daughter if any of her friends went to the climate strike. She said no. And she didn’t ask about it. She did spend the drive out to Long Island Friday evening counting the black garbage bags on the side of the highway. Probably body parts she speculated.
  2. His entire argument – lengthy and convoluted and dressed up with politically correct double speak – boils down to ‘Asian and white kids on average are smarter than black and Latino kids and it pisses me off.’ That’s it.

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666
    Who can be taken seriously when they use creepy SJW language like that.

    For example, Whites are "children" but black and brown people are "bodies."

    And school assignments are a form of "eugenics?" I suspect he doesn't know what the word actually means.

    Not to mention the preposterous "Latinx," which sounds like an open source programing language.

    , @Lagertha
    For almost 20 years! In Finland, where most of the kids are white (duh) only a few MENA kids get into the top Bac HS's.

    Super smart East Asians (have been there for 30+ years) ace the tests along with ethnic Finns....and, realistically, a much smaller proportion of girls.

    Now, there are some other Bac HS's that are arts and languages oriented which gain more of a mixed bag of kids; and, the Swedish speaking Bac HS's offer opportunities beyond Finland, but, you have to be fluent in Swedish, which is an easier language than Finnish.
  3. ‘…Oddly, the word “Asian” doesn’t appear in this op-ed…’

    Now, nothing’s very odd about that, is it?

    After all, that Asians are overrepresented would kind of give the lie to the implied assumption that white overrepresentation is a function of white privilege, wouldn’t it? What are we supposed to believe: that Asian privilege exists?

    • Replies: @Kronos
    Intersectionality brinkmanship is a curious thing. Then again, he might not want to pay extra for his wife’s hair supplies. (Asians have dominated that market for a while.)
  4. That graphic makes for a pretty good argument against one thesis of Chanda Chisala’s latest post: http://www.unz.com/article/why-harvard-is-right-to-discriminate-against-asians/

    He contends:

    In this article, I will argue that young East Asians develop their cognitive abilities faster than the young of every other population and thus reach their full mental capacity much earlier than everyone else.

    Yet in the graphic we see Asians and whites almost equally represented in Kindergarten G&T. While at the specialized high school level Asians strongly outnumber whites: https://www.chalkbeat.org/posts/ny/2019/03/19/by-the-numbers-new-york-citys-specialized-high-school-offers/

    It’s almost like Rushton might be right rather than Chisala. Also from the first link above:

    Hereditarian IQ expert, J Phillippe Rushton, seemed to suggest that East Asians actually develop slower than everyone else, biologically, which would imply that even their cognitive ability develops more slowly.

    Back to this iSteve post. I wonder if Kirkland really thinks the science is spurious, or if he just likes the alliteration? Perhaps someone should ask him just what is spurious about the science involved?

    • Replies: @a guy named me too
    While at the specialized high school level Asians strongly outnumber whites:
    They also CHEAT like crazy - I live in NYC and am close to some parents (white, liberals) with kids at the big three- the totally pc-ed kids make the same observation - orientals cheat more, and they also have little or no understanding *unable to apply facts, theories, techniques - of the things they are tested on.
    , @International Jew
    The Asian advantage is more pronounced at the high schools because at that level the admissions are a lot more selective. This reflects the accelerating thinning in the tail of the normal distribution.
    , @leopard
    Rushton is an idiot according to razib khan.
    , @res
    We are discussing this in the Chisala thread: http://www.unz.com/article/why-harvard-is-right-to-discriminate-against-asians/
    The NYC schools information there might be of interest to others here.

    In particular, this brief gives a fascinating look at the evolution of racial test gaps between third and eighth grades:
    https://ibo.nyc.ny.us/iboreports/from-grades-3-to-8-tracing-changes-in-achievement-gaps-by-race-and-gender-in-new-york-city-public-schools-december-201.html
    That's the best data of the sort I have seen. If anyone knows of anything comparable please post a link.

    Table 8 makes a good summary.

    http://ibo.nyc.ny.us/images/chart-8-achievement-2017.jpg
  5. “Oddly, the word “Asian” doesn’t appear in this op-ed. (…)”

    Indeed, there’s mention of stereotypes of black and brown bodies but no mention of yellow bodies.

  6. Anon[346] • Disclaimer says:

    End gifted programs. End private and religious schools. End boarding schools.

    I want the children if our elites to meet D’Quan and LaMarcus, up close and personal.

    Do that, and they will magically become the biggest immigration restictionists you have ever seen.

    Im for forcing Section 8 on a quota upon every square mile of residential acreage in the United States on a same percentage basis. Use of executive crises powers will overrule the courts and simply implement this on places like Malibu and the Upper East side.

    If the elites are allowed exclusive segragatory enclaves, they will never be on our side of this most important issue. Only way I see us winning this.

    • Replies: @Jim bob Lassiter
    Public housing (due to unit density per acre and construction cost dictates) requires city water and sewer service. Besides, tenants and administrators of public housing would be intellectually unable to deal with the issues associated with maintaining wells and septic tanks even if there were unlimited public housing budgets.
    , @houston 1992
    you are probably correct.
    Bringing back the draft so that the Elites can be enriched by serving in Afghanistan etc would change our war policy. Heck, even forcing Becky-ettes to register for the draft would precipitate major realignments.
  7. Asians, like Jews, can be lumped in with white people whenever it’s convenient for the Narrative.

    At all other times they are oppressed, talented and highly accomplished minorities who are being kept out of the Ivy League by Quotas!

    And if you dare notice that they’re actually wildly over-represented you are obviously a white supremacist Nazi type person who deserves what’s happening to you and your kind.

  8. It’s a measure of America’s unseriousness that people who unironically use the word ‘Latinx’ are taken seriously. Right up there with non-trans people who put pronouns in their Twitter bio.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad

    It’s a measure of America’s unseriousness that people who unironically use the word ‘Latinx’ are taken seriously. Right up there with non-trans people who put pronouns in their Twitter bio.
     
    It's particularly stupid here, because we already have a neuter adjective for these folks--"Latin". If he needs to say "Latinx" for some reason, then he should have said "blackx" also.

    BTW, i think mocking this stuff with "blackx" would be kind of fun. Blacks--at least the ones i know well--are pretty happy just being black and don't like all that faggy stuff.
  9. Is it genetics? Or, life style choice?

    Is there detail on parents in the study?
    — Two parent vs. One parent households. Also, the number of hours that Parents spend away from home.
    — Number of children per parent at home.

    One suspects that Asians and Whites families have much higher “Parent home hours per child” versus Latin and Black families. If that time is spent wisely (e.g. TV OFF reading books together) that child will have acquired a true “Talent”. Accepting and probably enjoying the reading necessary to learn quickly.

    Trying to look inside the family at how hours are used is probably very hard, but it shouldn’t be that difficult to perform a preliminary screening based on the opportunity to have time together.

    Potential One-on-One Contact Hours = Number of Parent hours @ home / Number of Child hours @ home.

    PEACE

  10. There are so many educational opportunities available to young families it is difficult not to yawn at this NYC back and forth.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    There are so many educational opportunities available to young families it is difficult not to yawn at this NYC back and forth.
     
    Such as what?
  11. Here is Dr. David E. Kirkland’s own self-description from his personal website:

    David E. Kirkland is a transdisciplinary scholar of language, literacy, and urban education, who explores through the construct of literacy the intersections among language, race, gender, and urban youth culture. His work has also explored, among other things, urban teacher preparation, digital media, and the sociopolitical aesthetics of revolutionary justice as (re)produced in artifacts of Hip Hop.

    He has spent the past decade analyzing the culture, language, and texts of groups of urban American youth, and has expertise in critical literary, linguistic, and ethnographic research methods.

    He has received many awards for his work […]

    Paging Mr. Derbyshire. Mr. John Derbyshire. Your comment is requested. Isn’t there a catchy, shortened, sloganized way of putting all this that you came up with?

    • Replies: @anon
    He has received many awards for his work [...]

    He's tricky! He finds the Queen of Clubs every time!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-O5IHVhWj0

    , @Aft
    All I heard was he sits around trying to improve his literacy (still a ways to go) and listening to rap music.
  12. The modern day eugenics project of creating the Super Race of White-Asians is proceeding according to Plan! Kirk-[land]

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnSnfiUI54&feature=youtu.be

  13. @res
    That graphic makes for a pretty good argument against one thesis of Chanda Chisala's latest post: http://www.unz.com/article/why-harvard-is-right-to-discriminate-against-asians/

    He contends:

    In this article, I will argue that young East Asians develop their cognitive abilities faster than the young of every other population and thus reach their full mental capacity much earlier than everyone else.
     
    Yet in the graphic we see Asians and whites almost equally represented in Kindergarten G&T. While at the specialized high school level Asians strongly outnumber whites: https://www.chalkbeat.org/posts/ny/2019/03/19/by-the-numbers-new-york-citys-specialized-high-school-offers/

    It's almost like Rushton might be right rather than Chisala. Also from the first link above:

    Hereditarian IQ expert, J Phillippe Rushton, seemed to suggest that East Asians actually develop slower than everyone else, biologically, which would imply that even their cognitive ability develops more slowly.

     

    Back to this iSteve post. I wonder if Kirkland really thinks the science is spurious, or if he just likes the alliteration? Perhaps someone should ask him just what is spurious about the science involved?

    While at the specialized high school level Asians strongly outnumber whites:
    They also CHEAT like crazy – I live in NYC and am close to some parents (white, liberals) with kids at the big three- the totally pc-ed kids make the same observation – orientals cheat more, and they also have little or no understanding *unable to apply facts, theories, techniques – of the things they are tested on.

  14. Why are children allowed to consent to playing NFL, which is just as harmful to their brains as paedophilia is to their psychology, but not to sex with an adult? I’m not trying to defend paedophilia, I’m just saying that being disgusted by it and hating it is not logically consistent with other beliefs we hold. Nothing wrong with disgust though, it works well against rats and cockroaches, and promotes good hygiene.

    I don’t think RMS is attracted to prepubescent humans. All he said was why is that wrong. So we’re allowed to question the holocaust but not paedophilia? I thought this was the alt right, where all beliefs are open to questioning. I refuse to be part of a movement whose big brained intellectuals hold sacred cows. Sacred cows are for the masses, not philosophers.

  15. I’m one of those middle-class families that’s on the fence about moving out of New York

    Translation: She doesn’t have a rent-controlled apartment.

  16. David E. Kirkland
    – born circa mid-1970s in Detroit; critical developmental years in 1980s Detroit
    – He provides a frank interview about his family origins in a 2015 interview, incl.:

    Socially, I grew up as what people would consider low-SES (low socioeconomic status), but my family had a lot of (cultural) wealth. My mother was a prostitute. My father wasn’t always present. I was homeless for at least a year of my life. […]

    Degrees
    1998: BA, English & History, Michigan State;
    Early 2000s: MS, Univ. of Michigan, Developmental Psychology and MA Western Philosophy [these two degrees (joint, presumably), are mentioned in his public LinkedIn but unusually not on his NYU CV, so unsure of date, most likely they are spring 2002;
    2006: PhD, Michigan State. Dissertation title: “The Boys in the Hood: Exploring Literacy in the Social Lives of Six Urban Adolescent Black Males;”
    2014: JD, Univ. of Michigan.

    Work
    Fall 1998 to spring 2003: High school teacher in Detroit and Lansing, Michigan;
    2002: First college-level teaching position, Michigan State University College of Education;
    2004 to 2006: Wayne State University, College of Urban Affairs and Metropolitan Studies (during PhD work) — (also, during JD work: Michigan State, Associate Professor English and Urban Education, 2011-2014);
    Aug. 2006 to Present: New York University, Associate Professor English and Urban Education.

    Ongoing projects while at NYU include:
    – “Teaching Tupac: A Curriculum Guide for Developing 21st Century Literacy Skills” (2007-2010)
    – “Black Lives Matter: A Curriculum Guide for the Critical Teaching of Human Value” (2014-2016)

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    My mother was a prostitute. My father wasn’t always present.
     
    I can see why.
    , @Aft

    Socially, I grew up as what people would consider low-SES (low socioeconomic status), but my family had a lot of (cultural) wealth. My mother was a prostitute. My father wasn’t always present. I was homeless for at least a year of my life. […
     
    From his twitter:

    All of today, I've been inundated with people calling me names and distorting my argument, attempting to pit me against Asians. This is how I know that the perspective is right--it's challenging people.
     
    The logic is not strong in this one
  17. “Why would a school system value retaining families at the expense of families in the system who have nowhere else to go?”

    Because those are the families paying most of the taxes, especially the progressive income taxes of New York City and state.

  18. I didn’t get around to making this point on Steve’s post, on the Packer article, but it’s obvious:

    Education of any quality is *not* an inherently scarce good.

    It is simply not inherently limited like say beachfront property or a house in the Hamptons. A Harvard degree is a scarce good only because Harvard has a monopoly on granting Harvard degrees.

    But a good rigorous education is not the least bit difficult to supply, even in the current Fordist, pile ’em into the classroom model, and i believe it’s possible to do much better now.

    So the “good schools” connumdrum is easily solved by just vouchering the whole thing out and letting parents pick the schools that deliver what they want for their kids.

    Packer apparently just wanted old style good white education, where his kids would learn that people like … uh … Packer! are actually good white heroes, as opposed to bad whites like me, and for his kids to have old style separate boys and girls bathrooms. There are probably near 100,000 kids in NYC whose parents want something in this ballpark, so Packer would have lots of options with educational choice.

    And Kirkland could send his kids to a school with a program he liked.

    So this should be “win win”. Of course, the obvious barrier is all the iron rice bowls in the NYC public school system.

    But what’s going on here goes beyond that. It’s classic minoritarianism. The minorities greatest aniexty is the thought of white people escaping and doing their own thing.

    The same reason the Democrats coalition of the fringes is united against the thought of use deplorables separating and having our own traditional American nation.

    That said, watching all these good whites like Packer see their kids screwed by minoritarianism … couldn’t happen to a nicer guy!

    • Replies: @anon
    Education of any quality is *not* an inherently scarce good.

    Indeed.

    The "five foot shelf of books" is still available to anyone who wants it. Harvard used to actually have scholars and educators, a century ago.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Harvard_Classics
    , @Reg Cæsar

    It’s classic minoritarianism. The minorities greatest aniexty is the thought of white people escaping and doing their own thing.
     
    They don't miss us. They miss our money.
    , @Anonymous
    Honestly, in these days of the internet, algorithms and good interactive software, VDUs and input recognising systems, I don't really understand why 'bricks and mortar' schools are really necessary anymore. A lot of noise is made about increasing automation destroying manufacturing jobs, but surely, modern technology has rendered the greater part of the teaching profession and educational industry redundant.
    When one considers the enormous taxation burden imposed by education, the savings to the economy - money to spent more efficiently elsewhere, and consequent rise in general living standards, are enormous.
    Exceedingly powerful lobbies and vested interests ensure that these gains - entirely realisable with existing technology - won't come to pass.
    , @Hypnotoad666

    Education of any quality is *not* an inherently scarce good.

    It is simply not inherently limited like say beachfront property or a house in the Hamptons. A Harvard degree is a scarce good only because Harvard has a monopoly on granting Harvard degrees.
     

    It's true that the opportunity to learn actual academic subject matter is not an inherently scarce good. But the other, perhaps more important, part of a school is what kids "learn" from their peers. Unlike access to academic knowledge, the opportunity to associate with "high quality" peers is a scarce and valuable commodity.

    Parents don't want their kids associating with dysfunctional "losers" (for lack of a better term) for fear that loser qualities will rub off on their kids. This concern is totally rational and normal. But it's utterly un-PC. So Good White parents can only express their concern through proxy language and code words like "good schools" and "high test scores."

    On the flip side, blacks and white SJWs can't admit that the purpose of "integration" is to free blacks from the harm caused by associating with other blacks (and to spread that harm instead among other groups). So they have to speak in their own code words like "ending segregation," without ever explaining why the racial mix of a school has anything to do with students' ability to learn.

    These two sets of phony arguments sail past each other like ships in the night.

  19. @Hail
    Here is Dr. David E. Kirkland's own self-description from his personal website:

    David E. Kirkland is a transdisciplinary scholar of language, literacy, and urban education, who explores through the construct of literacy the intersections among language, race, gender, and urban youth culture. His work has also explored, among other things, urban teacher preparation, digital media, and the sociopolitical aesthetics of revolutionary justice as (re)produced in artifacts of Hip Hop.

    He has spent the past decade analyzing the culture, language, and texts of groups of urban American youth, and has expertise in critical literary, linguistic, and ethnographic research methods.

    He has received many awards for his work [...]
     
    Paging Mr. Derbyshire. Mr. John Derbyshire. Your comment is requested. Isn't there a catchy, shortened, sloganized way of putting all this that you came up with?

    He has received many awards for his work […]

    He’s tricky! He finds the Queen of Clubs every time!

  20. @Altai
    It's a measure of America's unseriousness that people who unironically use the word 'Latinx' are taken seriously. Right up there with non-trans people who put pronouns in their Twitter bio.

    It’s a measure of America’s unseriousness that people who unironically use the word ‘Latinx’ are taken seriously. Right up there with non-trans people who put pronouns in their Twitter bio.

    It’s particularly stupid here, because we already have a neuter adjective for these folks–“Latin”. If he needs to say “Latinx” for some reason, then he should have said “blackx” also.

    BTW, i think mocking this stuff with “blackx” would be kind of fun. Blacks–at least the ones i know well–are pretty happy just being black and don’t like all that faggy stuff.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    If he needs to say “Latinx” for some reason, then he should have said “blackx” also.
     
    Africanx?
    , @J.Ross
    There are no "real" (in the Ebonic sense) Latins who have any time at all for this "latinx" mariconería.
    Time passes so quickly in the garden of learning: looking up a guess at that word's spelling I see I am preceded, it already by usage means what it means and the meaning I am using, "excessive political correctness."
    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mariconeria
    , @newrouter
    Negrox?
  21. @Anon
    End gifted programs. End private and religious schools. End boarding schools.

    I want the children if our elites to meet D'Quan and LaMarcus, up close and personal.

    Do that, and they will magically become the biggest immigration restictionists you have ever seen.

    Im for forcing Section 8 on a quota upon every square mile of residential acreage in the United States on a same percentage basis. Use of executive crises powers will overrule the courts and simply implement this on places like Malibu and the Upper East side.

    If the elites are allowed exclusive segragatory enclaves, they will never be on our side of this most important issue. Only way I see us winning this.

    Public housing (due to unit density per acre and construction cost dictates) requires city water and sewer service. Besides, tenants and administrators of public housing would be intellectually unable to deal with the issues associated with maintaining wells and septic tanks even if there were unlimited public housing budgets.

  22. @AnotherDad
    I didn't get around to making this point on Steve's post, on the Packer article, but it's obvious:

    Education of any quality is *not* an inherently scarce good.

    It is simply not inherently limited like say beachfront property or a house in the Hamptons. A Harvard degree is a scarce good only because Harvard has a monopoly on granting Harvard degrees.

    But a good rigorous education is not the least bit difficult to supply, even in the current Fordist, pile 'em into the classroom model, and i believe it's possible to do much better now.

    So the "good schools" connumdrum is easily solved by just vouchering the whole thing out and letting parents pick the schools that deliver what they want for their kids.

    Packer apparently just wanted old style good white education, where his kids would learn that people like ... uh ... Packer! are actually good white heroes, as opposed to bad whites like me, and for his kids to have old style separate boys and girls bathrooms. There are probably near 100,000 kids in NYC whose parents want something in this ballpark, so Packer would have lots of options with educational choice.

    And Kirkland could send his kids to a school with a program he liked.

    So this should be "win win". Of course, the obvious barrier is all the iron rice bowls in the NYC public school system.

    But what's going on here goes beyond that. It's classic minoritarianism. The minorities greatest aniexty is the thought of white people escaping and doing their own thing.

    The same reason the Democrats coalition of the fringes is united against the thought of use deplorables separating and having our own traditional American nation.


    That said, watching all these good whites like Packer see their kids screwed by minoritarianism ... couldn't happen to a nicer guy!

    Education of any quality is *not* an inherently scarce good.

    Indeed.

    The “five foot shelf of books” is still available to anyone who wants it. Harvard used to actually have scholars and educators, a century ago.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Harvard_Classics

    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    I think I just saw the next great project Castalia House needs to do.
    , @Pericles

    The “five foot shelf of books” is still available to anyone who wants it.

     

    It's even free (as in gratis) these days.

    https://archive.org/search.php?query=harvard%20classics

    or even

    https://archive.org/details/HarvardClassicsEpub

    Now all that remains to be done is to read, and ponder.
  23. @Anon
    End gifted programs. End private and religious schools. End boarding schools.

    I want the children if our elites to meet D'Quan and LaMarcus, up close and personal.

    Do that, and they will magically become the biggest immigration restictionists you have ever seen.

    Im for forcing Section 8 on a quota upon every square mile of residential acreage in the United States on a same percentage basis. Use of executive crises powers will overrule the courts and simply implement this on places like Malibu and the Upper East side.

    If the elites are allowed exclusive segragatory enclaves, they will never be on our side of this most important issue. Only way I see us winning this.

    you are probably correct.
    Bringing back the draft so that the Elites can be enriched by serving in Afghanistan etc would change our war policy. Heck, even forcing Becky-ettes to register for the draft would precipitate major realignments.

  24. @res
    That graphic makes for a pretty good argument against one thesis of Chanda Chisala's latest post: http://www.unz.com/article/why-harvard-is-right-to-discriminate-against-asians/

    He contends:

    In this article, I will argue that young East Asians develop their cognitive abilities faster than the young of every other population and thus reach their full mental capacity much earlier than everyone else.
     
    Yet in the graphic we see Asians and whites almost equally represented in Kindergarten G&T. While at the specialized high school level Asians strongly outnumber whites: https://www.chalkbeat.org/posts/ny/2019/03/19/by-the-numbers-new-york-citys-specialized-high-school-offers/

    It's almost like Rushton might be right rather than Chisala. Also from the first link above:

    Hereditarian IQ expert, J Phillippe Rushton, seemed to suggest that East Asians actually develop slower than everyone else, biologically, which would imply that even their cognitive ability develops more slowly.

     

    Back to this iSteve post. I wonder if Kirkland really thinks the science is spurious, or if he just likes the alliteration? Perhaps someone should ask him just what is spurious about the science involved?

    The Asian advantage is more pronounced at the high schools because at that level the admissions are a lot more selective. This reflects the accelerating thinning in the tail of the normal distribution.

    • Replies: @res
    That's a good response. If you are following the Chisala thread you might have noticed I used exactly that argument with respect to his Stuyvesant/Caltech comparison.

    I don't think it applies here though (at least not to an important extent). In the iSteve graphic we see that Asians and whites are almost evenly represented in both the population and K G&T. Trying to put some numbers here, demographic snapshot at https://infohub.nyced.org/reports-and-policies/citywide-information-and-data/information-and-data-overview says there are about 80k students in kindergarten. According to this WSJ article: https://www.wsj.com/articles/some-parents-pay-up-to-400-an-hour-to-prep-4-year-olds-for-nycs-gifted-test-1538568001

    More than 14,500 preschoolers took the test to enter kindergarten gifted programs last winter and only 2,305 were offered seats this fall, according to city data.
     
    So we are looking at a 1 in 80/2.3 = 35 threshold. Naively this is a bit less than 2 SD. Given the NAM proportions in the base population, let's call it 1.5 SD = IQ 122.

    That threshold is not that high (lower than my estimates of 2 and 3 SD for Stuyvesant and Caltech respectively) but high enough that if there is a significant difference in average ability for kindergarten Asians/whites (like we see in HS!) then we should see it in the K G&T proportions. Since we see essentially no difference between K Asians and whites in G&T representation I think it is fair to argue the difference in average ability is also small.

    To make this more concrete, using Emil's tail calculator with a threshold of 122 and an assumed Asian mean of 105 we should see about a 2:1 ratio over the threshold.
    http://emilkirkegaard.dk/understanding_statistics/?app=tail_effects
    Even a 2 point advantage translates to a 4:3 ratio over the threshold.

    I consider this argument especially persuasive against Chisala's thesis because NYC K G&T and specialized high schools are drawing from essentially the same base population just shifted in time.

    What do you think?

    P.S. Stuyvesant might be more selective, but based on the numbers (there are about 75k students in NYC grade 8 from link above and 5k specialized high school offers https://www.chalkbeat.org/posts/ny/2019/03/19/by-the-numbers-new-york-citys-specialized-high-school-offers/ ) ALL of the specialized HS together end up being about half as selective as K G&T.
    , @nymom
    I think also a lot of whites simply leave the system by the high school level so the percentages in the public school probably have to be recalculated as the students age. For instance, I don't know any white parents whose children attended public high school in the city (except for the Science and/or Music/Art schools); but most of them do attend the pre-K and kindergarden classes in public school...then at the end of each school year the numbers start to fall and maybe one third to half are gone by middle school (either private or moved to a better public school system). Finally by high school it's down to single digits...

    So that 15% of white students doesn't remain stable over time. It gets smaller with each passing year.
  25. How can the Oscars (or anything else) be meritocratic if I haven’t won one?
    —–
    Isn’t possible he just doesn’t know what “meritocratic” means? Imprisoned as he is in white grammar?
    https://postimg.cc/dkkkH3X4

  26. I’m currently reading this book dealing with all the “good bet” assumptions that education would improve black lives. This is the same whining that JFK listened to in 1961. (Well Bobby Kennedy got the most earful.)

    I hear-by propose 1962 be labeled as “Year Zero.”

  27. @Hail
    David E. Kirkland
    - born circa mid-1970s in Detroit; critical developmental years in 1980s Detroit
    - He provides a frank interview about his family origins in a 2015 interview, incl.:

    Socially, I grew up as what people would consider low-SES (low socioeconomic status), but my family had a lot of (cultural) wealth. My mother was a prostitute. My father wasn’t always present. I was homeless for at least a year of my life. [...]
     
    Degrees
    - 1998: BA, English & History, Michigan State;
    - Early 2000s: MS, Univ. of Michigan, Developmental Psychology and MA Western Philosophy [these two degrees (joint, presumably), are mentioned in his public LinkedIn but unusually not on his NYU CV, so unsure of date, most likely they are spring 2002;
    - 2006: PhD, Michigan State. Dissertation title: "The Boys in the Hood: Exploring Literacy in the Social Lives of Six Urban Adolescent Black Males;"
    - 2014: JD, Univ. of Michigan.

    Work
    - Fall 1998 to spring 2003: High school teacher in Detroit and Lansing, Michigan;
    - 2002: First college-level teaching position, Michigan State University College of Education;
    - 2004 to 2006: Wayne State University, College of Urban Affairs and Metropolitan Studies (during PhD work) -- (also, during JD work: Michigan State, Associate Professor English and Urban Education, 2011-2014);
    - Aug. 2006 to Present: New York University, Associate Professor English and Urban Education.

    Ongoing projects while at NYU include:
    - "Teaching Tupac: A Curriculum Guide for Developing 21st Century Literacy Skills" (2007-2010)
    - "Black Lives Matter: A Curriculum Guide for the Critical Teaching of Human Value" (2014-2016)

    My mother was a prostitute. My father wasn’t always present.

    I can see why.

    • Replies: @Aft
    ....

    https://www.chalkbeat.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Kirkland-900x0-c-default.jpg
  28. @AnotherDad

    It’s a measure of America’s unseriousness that people who unironically use the word ‘Latinx’ are taken seriously. Right up there with non-trans people who put pronouns in their Twitter bio.
     
    It's particularly stupid here, because we already have a neuter adjective for these folks--"Latin". If he needs to say "Latinx" for some reason, then he should have said "blackx" also.

    BTW, i think mocking this stuff with "blackx" would be kind of fun. Blacks--at least the ones i know well--are pretty happy just being black and don't like all that faggy stuff.

    If he needs to say “Latinx” for some reason, then he should have said “blackx” also.

    Africanx?

  29. “….modern day eugenics”. So, if black and Hispanic kids don’t get in the selective schools, they get sterilized?

    • Replies: @Hail
    Good point. Kirkland's use of "eugenics" doesn't fit with any definition of that word with which I am familiar.

    He only uses the E-word once in the article:


    Others may dance around saying it, but I won’t. This is a modern-day-eugenics project — one manufactured based on spurious science and reinforced by institutional consent.
     
    The only way this would make sense would be if lifetime, expected fertility were fairly directly, strongly, and positively correlated with getting into a gifted-and-talented kindergarten, and there were good reason to think the kindergarten caused the fertility gap. Such a proposition is very close to what would seem absurdist satire.

    If anything, the opposite is much more likely true. That is, it unfortunately seems the case, so far at least, that education-emphasis itself (at least for women) is a dysgenic project.

    , @Ibound1
    No. It’s that high IQ Whites and Asians will breed and after the first generation, never out-mix and we are going to cull the bottom 10% every generation and have the highest IQ couples have the most kids, and in 1000 years? Watch out!
  30. … but my family had a lot of (cultural) wealth. My mother was a prostitute.

    LOL! This guy is truly unclear on the concept. You don’t tell people your mother’s a whore. That’s for the other ghetto kids to TELL YOU, when you don’t let ’em use your basketball.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    For him, this is a boast: "Look how smart I am...to overcome all that!"

    No pride or feeling for the people that brought him into the world at all.
  31. @AnotherDad
    I didn't get around to making this point on Steve's post, on the Packer article, but it's obvious:

    Education of any quality is *not* an inherently scarce good.

    It is simply not inherently limited like say beachfront property or a house in the Hamptons. A Harvard degree is a scarce good only because Harvard has a monopoly on granting Harvard degrees.

    But a good rigorous education is not the least bit difficult to supply, even in the current Fordist, pile 'em into the classroom model, and i believe it's possible to do much better now.

    So the "good schools" connumdrum is easily solved by just vouchering the whole thing out and letting parents pick the schools that deliver what they want for their kids.

    Packer apparently just wanted old style good white education, where his kids would learn that people like ... uh ... Packer! are actually good white heroes, as opposed to bad whites like me, and for his kids to have old style separate boys and girls bathrooms. There are probably near 100,000 kids in NYC whose parents want something in this ballpark, so Packer would have lots of options with educational choice.

    And Kirkland could send his kids to a school with a program he liked.

    So this should be "win win". Of course, the obvious barrier is all the iron rice bowls in the NYC public school system.

    But what's going on here goes beyond that. It's classic minoritarianism. The minorities greatest aniexty is the thought of white people escaping and doing their own thing.

    The same reason the Democrats coalition of the fringes is united against the thought of use deplorables separating and having our own traditional American nation.


    That said, watching all these good whites like Packer see their kids screwed by minoritarianism ... couldn't happen to a nicer guy!

    It’s classic minoritarianism. The minorities greatest aniexty is the thought of white people escaping and doing their own thing.

    They don’t miss us. They miss our money.

  32. @AnotherDad

    It’s a measure of America’s unseriousness that people who unironically use the word ‘Latinx’ are taken seriously. Right up there with non-trans people who put pronouns in their Twitter bio.
     
    It's particularly stupid here, because we already have a neuter adjective for these folks--"Latin". If he needs to say "Latinx" for some reason, then he should have said "blackx" also.

    BTW, i think mocking this stuff with "blackx" would be kind of fun. Blacks--at least the ones i know well--are pretty happy just being black and don't like all that faggy stuff.

    There are no “real” (in the Ebonic sense) Latins who have any time at all for this “latinx” mariconería.
    Time passes so quickly in the garden of learning: looking up a guess at that word’s spelling I see I am preceded, it already by usage means what it means and the meaning I am using, “excessive political correctness.”
    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mariconeria

  33. @AnotherDad

    It’s a measure of America’s unseriousness that people who unironically use the word ‘Latinx’ are taken seriously. Right up there with non-trans people who put pronouns in their Twitter bio.
     
    It's particularly stupid here, because we already have a neuter adjective for these folks--"Latin". If he needs to say "Latinx" for some reason, then he should have said "blackx" also.

    BTW, i think mocking this stuff with "blackx" would be kind of fun. Blacks--at least the ones i know well--are pretty happy just being black and don't like all that faggy stuff.

    Negrox?

    • Replies: @Jim bob Lassiter
    Clorox for white?
  34. More African style magical thinking. Kirkland believes that kids are gifted kids, because they are enrolled in gifted programs. If NAM kids are enrolled in the gifted programs, they too will be gifted kids.
    Many Blacks also think that they only appear to have higher crime rates than Whites and Asians because the cops are more actively patrolling Black neighborhoods and arresting people. If Whites and Asians were being watched and arrested with the same zeal, they would have the same crime rates.
    The exclusion of discussions of Asians automatically guarantees he isn’t writing anything seriously.

    • Agree: Harry Baldwin
    • Replies: @Hail

    The exclusion of discussions of Asians automatically guarantees [David Kirkland] isn’t writing anything seriously.
     
    If it is true that Kirkland spent the first 18 or so years in Detroit, and his first 30 years in Michigan, it's no wonder he doesn't think Asians exist or are worth commenting on.

    (As Steve sometimes says, paraphrasing a line from the Simpsons in which Reverend Lovejoy calls all non-Christian, non-Jewish religions "miscellaneous," to Americans 'race' remains "Black, White, and Miscellaneous.")

    , @Hypnotoad666

    Kirkland believes that kids are gifted kids, because they are enrolled in gifted programs. If NAM kids are enrolled in the gifted programs, they too will be gifted kids.
     
    I wonder, what does Kirkland imagine is the "advantage" that "black and brown bodies" are missing out on by not being in a "gifted program?"

    Does he realize it's merely the opportunity to go through more material, at a faster pace, which does them no good unless they are objectively up to the task.

    My guess is that, by dint of his ideological training, Kirkland thinks that ability is just a "social construct."
  35. Mr Kirkland isn’t dumb, and is worried if he doesn’t stop the Asians, one day he’s going to sit down at the School Diversity Advisory Group and find himself isolated and ignored at a table full of Tiger mothers.

  36. @Alfa158
    More African style magical thinking. Kirkland believes that kids are gifted kids, because they are enrolled in gifted programs. If NAM kids are enrolled in the gifted programs, they too will be gifted kids.
    Many Blacks also think that they only appear to have higher crime rates than Whites and Asians because the cops are more actively patrolling Black neighborhoods and arresting people. If Whites and Asians were being watched and arrested with the same zeal, they would have the same crime rates.
    The exclusion of discussions of Asians automatically guarantees he isn’t writing anything seriously.

    The exclusion of discussions of Asians automatically guarantees [David Kirkland] isn’t writing anything seriously.

    If it is true that Kirkland spent the first 18 or so years in Detroit, and his first 30 years in Michigan, it’s no wonder he doesn’t think Asians exist or are worth commenting on.

    (As Steve sometimes says, paraphrasing a line from the Simpsons in which Reverend Lovejoy calls all non-Christian, non-Jewish religions “miscellaneous,” to Americans ‘race’ remains “Black, White, and Miscellaneous.”)

  37. @Redneck farmer
    "....modern day eugenics". So, if black and Hispanic kids don't get in the selective schools, they get sterilized?

    Good point. Kirkland’s use of “eugenics” doesn’t fit with any definition of that word with which I am familiar.

    He only uses the E-word once in the article:

    Others may dance around saying it, but I won’t. This is a modern-day-eugenics project — one manufactured based on spurious science and reinforced by institutional consent.

    The only way this would make sense would be if lifetime, expected fertility were fairly directly, strongly, and positively correlated with getting into a gifted-and-talented kindergarten, and there were good reason to think the kindergarten caused the fertility gap. Such a proposition is very close to what would seem absurdist satire.

    If anything, the opposite is much more likely true. That is, it unfortunately seems the case, so far at least, that education-emphasis itself (at least for women) is a dysgenic project.

    • Replies: @keypusher
    I clicked on the Daily News link and started to read Dr. Kirkland's editorial, but then I got distracted by what I at first thought were links to pro wrestling stories at the top of the page:

    "Tekashi69 chokes up recalling kidnapping at hands of accused Nine Trey Bloods" and "Tekashi69 tells court Cardi B is Bloods gang member as rapper Jim Jones...." and I guess I have to click on the link to find out what Jim Jones said, did, or fired, but I prefer to leave that a mystery. Back to Dr. Kirkland: yeah, he has no idea what "eugenics" means. But here's the thing: if enough people start using "eugenics" to refer to anything involving children that has a racially disparate impact, from spelling bees to SATs, then sooner or later that's what "eugenics" is going to mean. Some day you'll hear it on the evening news from anchor Tekashi69.

    I've been re-reading Packer's piece closely, and I'm sure by now he's wishing to God he'd never written it, but I'm glad he did. It's just one pearl after another. For example, describing the dream elementary school that eventually Awoked, he writes, "[the] combination of diversity, achievement, and well-being was nearly unheard-of in New York public schools." The implication is that when diversity is present, achievement and well-being are generally absent. Diversity must indeed be as precious as its propagandists claim, given what we sacrifice to achieve it.

    The school isn't even that great. The student body is 38% white, 29% black, 24% Latino, and 7% Asian -- demographics that come close to matching the city population, he says in awe. And two-thirds score at or above grade level! -- you get the feeling he's ready to faint at this point. "It was a liberal white family's wet dream." And then the very next sentence: "The admission rate was less than 10%." If all the whites and Asians are scoring at or above grade level -- a good bet, if you're being that selective -- that's 45% of the student body right there. If you can get 38% of the blacks and Hispanics to score at or above grade level -- and again, if you're taking applications from all over the city, and throwing out over 90% of them, that should be doable -- you're there. And sure enough, Packer is apparently surprised to learn later that there are up to 50% gaps (whatever that means) between the whites and the blacks/hispanics. (Can a smart journalist be that clueless? Yeah, probably, since he says he'd hardly thought about high school since he graduated in the 70s.)

    Anyway, my takeaway is that the school (Brooklyn New, apparently) is a Potemkin village, a fantasy the scholastic equivalent of the Huxtables or Law & Order. Of course no normal school will have the demographics of the city as a whole, because no neighborhood has the demographics of the city as a whole. And the school achieves racial balance and a reasonable -- not high -- level of achievement by being roughly as selective as Yale Law and tolerating massive racial achievement gaps in the student body. Liberal white wet dreams are not what they used to be.
  38. @PSR
    His entire argument - lengthy and convoluted and dressed up with politically correct double speak - boils down to ‘Asian and white kids on average are smarter than black and Latino kids and it pisses me off.’ That’s it.

    Who can be taken seriously when they use creepy SJW language like that.

    For example, Whites are “children” but black and brown people are “bodies.”

    And school assignments are a form of “eugenics?” I suspect he doesn’t know what the word actually means.

    Not to mention the preposterous “Latinx,” which sounds like an open source programing language.

    • Replies: @EdwardM

    It also plays on stereotypes that black and brown bodies, in contrast to a middle-class white norm, somehow lack virtue and merit or other fictive devices employed to legitimate the lies that uphold separate and unequal education.
     
    How about "fictive devices"? Is it that he doesn't quite want to say that "virtue" and "merit" are fictions because that would be stupid, or is "fictive devices" a fancy construction, complete with a few extra syllables beyond what are necessary to convey the meaning, to show that he is smarter than us?
  39. “But the Left is increasingly gearing up for demanding total surrender on the part of white parents like Packer.”

    Maybe this is what it will take to wake the SWPLs up. Once they see that their 4-year-old white kid is one of three white kids in a sea of brown.

  40. @Achmed E. Newman

    ... but my family had a lot of (cultural) wealth. My mother was a prostitute.
     
    LOL! This guy is truly unclear on the concept. You don't tell people your mother's a whore. That's for the other ghetto kids to TELL YOU, when you don't let 'em use your basketball.

    For him, this is a boast: “Look how smart I am…to overcome all that!”

    No pride or feeling for the people that brought him into the world at all.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    Yes, one wonders what his mother thinks of being called a prostitute. He might even be exaggerating for effect. It reminds me of when Obama threw his grandmother under the bus while seeking absolution for his association with Reverend Wright. He said she was scared of black men when actually it was a particular black man she was scared of, one who had harassed her at the bus stop.
  41. @Alfa158
    More African style magical thinking. Kirkland believes that kids are gifted kids, because they are enrolled in gifted programs. If NAM kids are enrolled in the gifted programs, they too will be gifted kids.
    Many Blacks also think that they only appear to have higher crime rates than Whites and Asians because the cops are more actively patrolling Black neighborhoods and arresting people. If Whites and Asians were being watched and arrested with the same zeal, they would have the same crime rates.
    The exclusion of discussions of Asians automatically guarantees he isn’t writing anything seriously.

    Kirkland believes that kids are gifted kids, because they are enrolled in gifted programs. If NAM kids are enrolled in the gifted programs, they too will be gifted kids.

    I wonder, what does Kirkland imagine is the “advantage” that “black and brown bodies” are missing out on by not being in a “gifted program?”

    Does he realize it’s merely the opportunity to go through more material, at a faster pace, which does them no good unless they are objectively up to the task.

    My guess is that, by dint of his ideological training, Kirkland thinks that ability is just a “social construct.”

    • Replies: @Alfa158
    I believe he thinks that the gifted program actually takes non-gifted kids and turns them into gifted kids. White kids get put in these programs and get to become gifted. Black kids don’t get put into the program and therefore don’t become gifted.
  42. Negroes will soon see white taxpayers abandon them. Who will pay for their EBT cards? Zuckerberg?

  43. @Colin Wright
    '...Oddly, the word “Asian” doesn’t appear in this op-ed...'

    Now, nothing's very odd about that, is it?

    After all, that Asians are overrepresented would kind of give the lie to the implied assumption that white overrepresentation is a function of white privilege, wouldn't it? What are we supposed to believe: that Asian privilege exists?

    Intersectionality brinkmanship is a curious thing. Then again, he might not want to pay extra for his wife’s hair supplies. (Asians have dominated that market for a while.)

  44. Graduate of The Dalton School and Harvard University has one of his typical hot takes.

    • Replies: @Gary in Gramercy
    "Mug him again."
  45. @Hail
    Good point. Kirkland's use of "eugenics" doesn't fit with any definition of that word with which I am familiar.

    He only uses the E-word once in the article:


    Others may dance around saying it, but I won’t. This is a modern-day-eugenics project — one manufactured based on spurious science and reinforced by institutional consent.
     
    The only way this would make sense would be if lifetime, expected fertility were fairly directly, strongly, and positively correlated with getting into a gifted-and-talented kindergarten, and there were good reason to think the kindergarten caused the fertility gap. Such a proposition is very close to what would seem absurdist satire.

    If anything, the opposite is much more likely true. That is, it unfortunately seems the case, so far at least, that education-emphasis itself (at least for women) is a dysgenic project.

    I clicked on the Daily News link and started to read Dr. Kirkland’s editorial, but then I got distracted by what I at first thought were links to pro wrestling stories at the top of the page:

    “Tekashi69 chokes up recalling kidnapping at hands of accused Nine Trey Bloods” and “Tekashi69 tells court Cardi B is Bloods gang member as rapper Jim Jones….” and I guess I have to click on the link to find out what Jim Jones said, did, or fired, but I prefer to leave that a mystery. Back to Dr. Kirkland: yeah, he has no idea what “eugenics” means. But here’s the thing: if enough people start using “eugenics” to refer to anything involving children that has a racially disparate impact, from spelling bees to SATs, then sooner or later that’s what “eugenics” is going to mean. Some day you’ll hear it on the evening news from anchor Tekashi69.

    I’ve been re-reading Packer’s piece closely, and I’m sure by now he’s wishing to God he’d never written it, but I’m glad he did. It’s just one pearl after another. For example, describing the dream elementary school that eventually Awoked, he writes, “[the] combination of diversity, achievement, and well-being was nearly unheard-of in New York public schools.” The implication is that when diversity is present, achievement and well-being are generally absent. Diversity must indeed be as precious as its propagandists claim, given what we sacrifice to achieve it.

    The school isn’t even that great. The student body is 38% white, 29% black, 24% Latino, and 7% Asian — demographics that come close to matching the city population, he says in awe. And two-thirds score at or above grade level! — you get the feeling he’s ready to faint at this point. “It was a liberal white family’s wet dream.” And then the very next sentence: “The admission rate was less than 10%.” If all the whites and Asians are scoring at or above grade level — a good bet, if you’re being that selective — that’s 45% of the student body right there. If you can get 38% of the blacks and Hispanics to score at or above grade level — and again, if you’re taking applications from all over the city, and throwing out over 90% of them, that should be doable — you’re there. And sure enough, Packer is apparently surprised to learn later that there are up to 50% gaps (whatever that means) between the whites and the blacks/hispanics. (Can a smart journalist be that clueless? Yeah, probably, since he says he’d hardly thought about high school since he graduated in the 70s.)

    Anyway, my takeaway is that the school (Brooklyn New, apparently) is a Potemkin village, a fantasy the scholastic equivalent of the Huxtables or Law & Order. Of course no normal school will have the demographics of the city as a whole, because no neighborhood has the demographics of the city as a whole. And the school achieves racial balance and a reasonable — not high — level of achievement by being roughly as selective as Yale Law and tolerating massive racial achievement gaps in the student body. Liberal white wet dreams are not what they used to be.

  46. @Clifford Brown
    Graduate of The Dalton School and Harvard University has one of his typical hot takes.


    https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1174802126826037253

    “Mug him again.”

  47. @Hypnotoad666

    Kirkland believes that kids are gifted kids, because they are enrolled in gifted programs. If NAM kids are enrolled in the gifted programs, they too will be gifted kids.
     
    I wonder, what does Kirkland imagine is the "advantage" that "black and brown bodies" are missing out on by not being in a "gifted program?"

    Does he realize it's merely the opportunity to go through more material, at a faster pace, which does them no good unless they are objectively up to the task.

    My guess is that, by dint of his ideological training, Kirkland thinks that ability is just a "social construct."

    I believe he thinks that the gifted program actually takes non-gifted kids and turns them into gifted kids. White kids get put in these programs and get to become gifted. Black kids don’t get put into the program and therefore don’t become gifted.

    • Replies: @res
    It makes me wonder what his college (not to mention graduate and law school) experience was like. Most people who take classes of any difficulty in college get a reality check about the hierarchy of ability and where they fit in it. And that it is not just a social construct.

    Alternatively he is just another race hustler and really does know the score.
  48. @res
    That graphic makes for a pretty good argument against one thesis of Chanda Chisala's latest post: http://www.unz.com/article/why-harvard-is-right-to-discriminate-against-asians/

    He contends:

    In this article, I will argue that young East Asians develop their cognitive abilities faster than the young of every other population and thus reach their full mental capacity much earlier than everyone else.
     
    Yet in the graphic we see Asians and whites almost equally represented in Kindergarten G&T. While at the specialized high school level Asians strongly outnumber whites: https://www.chalkbeat.org/posts/ny/2019/03/19/by-the-numbers-new-york-citys-specialized-high-school-offers/

    It's almost like Rushton might be right rather than Chisala. Also from the first link above:

    Hereditarian IQ expert, J Phillippe Rushton, seemed to suggest that East Asians actually develop slower than everyone else, biologically, which would imply that even their cognitive ability develops more slowly.

     

    Back to this iSteve post. I wonder if Kirkland really thinks the science is spurious, or if he just likes the alliteration? Perhaps someone should ask him just what is spurious about the science involved?

    Rushton is an idiot according to razib khan.

    • Replies: @res

    Rushton is an idiot according to razib khan.
     
    Now that was a compelling argument. Would you care to provide a reference?
  49. @anon
    Education of any quality is *not* an inherently scarce good.

    Indeed.

    The "five foot shelf of books" is still available to anyone who wants it. Harvard used to actually have scholars and educators, a century ago.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Harvard_Classics

    I think I just saw the next great project Castalia House needs to do.

  50. And the NYT is completely unaware of the ethnicity openly advocating in-group marriage, testing for genetic defect, abortion of deformed foetuses.

  51. Anonymous[165] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnotherDad
    I didn't get around to making this point on Steve's post, on the Packer article, but it's obvious:

    Education of any quality is *not* an inherently scarce good.

    It is simply not inherently limited like say beachfront property or a house in the Hamptons. A Harvard degree is a scarce good only because Harvard has a monopoly on granting Harvard degrees.

    But a good rigorous education is not the least bit difficult to supply, even in the current Fordist, pile 'em into the classroom model, and i believe it's possible to do much better now.

    So the "good schools" connumdrum is easily solved by just vouchering the whole thing out and letting parents pick the schools that deliver what they want for their kids.

    Packer apparently just wanted old style good white education, where his kids would learn that people like ... uh ... Packer! are actually good white heroes, as opposed to bad whites like me, and for his kids to have old style separate boys and girls bathrooms. There are probably near 100,000 kids in NYC whose parents want something in this ballpark, so Packer would have lots of options with educational choice.

    And Kirkland could send his kids to a school with a program he liked.

    So this should be "win win". Of course, the obvious barrier is all the iron rice bowls in the NYC public school system.

    But what's going on here goes beyond that. It's classic minoritarianism. The minorities greatest aniexty is the thought of white people escaping and doing their own thing.

    The same reason the Democrats coalition of the fringes is united against the thought of use deplorables separating and having our own traditional American nation.


    That said, watching all these good whites like Packer see their kids screwed by minoritarianism ... couldn't happen to a nicer guy!

    Honestly, in these days of the internet, algorithms and good interactive software, VDUs and input recognising systems, I don’t really understand why ‘bricks and mortar’ schools are really necessary anymore. A lot of noise is made about increasing automation destroying manufacturing jobs, but surely, modern technology has rendered the greater part of the teaching profession and educational industry redundant.
    When one considers the enormous taxation burden imposed by education, the savings to the economy – money to spent more efficiently elsewhere, and consequent rise in general living standards, are enormous.
    Exceedingly powerful lobbies and vested interests ensure that these gains – entirely realisable with existing technology – won’t come to pass.

  52. Yet some white commentators see this statistical disconnect as somehow natural, and the desire to confront it as somehow contrary to the notion of a meritocracy.

    Correct on both counts.

    virtue and merit or other fictive devices

    No comment necessary.

    NYU should fire this half-wit.

  53. @Hail
    Here is Dr. David E. Kirkland's own self-description from his personal website:

    David E. Kirkland is a transdisciplinary scholar of language, literacy, and urban education, who explores through the construct of literacy the intersections among language, race, gender, and urban youth culture. His work has also explored, among other things, urban teacher preparation, digital media, and the sociopolitical aesthetics of revolutionary justice as (re)produced in artifacts of Hip Hop.

    He has spent the past decade analyzing the culture, language, and texts of groups of urban American youth, and has expertise in critical literary, linguistic, and ethnographic research methods.

    He has received many awards for his work [...]
     
    Paging Mr. Derbyshire. Mr. John Derbyshire. Your comment is requested. Isn't there a catchy, shortened, sloganized way of putting all this that you came up with?

    All I heard was he sits around trying to improve his literacy (still a ways to go) and listening to rap music.

  54. @Reg Cæsar

    My mother was a prostitute. My father wasn’t always present.
     
    I can see why.

    ….

    • Replies: @Hail
    Some of the books in front of his laptop that day in Jan. 2017 [?] appear to be:

    BLACK STATS: African Americans by the Numbers in the Twenty-First Century
    by Monique W. Morris (2014)
     

    PUSHOUT: The Criminalization of Black Girls in Schools
    by Monique W. Morris (2015)
     

    MILK AND HONEY
    by Rupi Kaur (2014)
    'Milk and Honey' is a collection of poetry and prose about survival. About the experience of violence, abuse, love, loss, and femininity.
     

    Rupi Kaur was born into a Sikh family in Punjab, India.[7] She emigrated to Canada with her parents when she was four years old.
     
  55. @anon
    Education of any quality is *not* an inherently scarce good.

    Indeed.

    The "five foot shelf of books" is still available to anyone who wants it. Harvard used to actually have scholars and educators, a century ago.

    https://infogalactic.com/info/Harvard_Classics

    The “five foot shelf of books” is still available to anyone who wants it.

    It’s even free (as in gratis) these days.

    https://archive.org/search.php?query=harvard%20classics

    or even

    https://archive.org/details/HarvardClassicsEpub

    Now all that remains to be done is to read, and ponder.

  56. Somewhat OT.

    More from Packer’s essay:

    I was ready to offer him as an emissary to that world, a token of my public-spiritedness. The same narcissistic pride that a parent takes in a child’s excellent report card, I now felt about sending him in a yellow school bus to an institution whose name began with P.S.

    Nothing life sacrifying your firstborn as a form of virtue signaling.

    the mix of races and classes gave him something even more precious: an unselfconscious belief that no one was better than anyone else, that he was everyone’s equal and everyone was his. In this way the school succeeded in its highest purpose.

    The moment in which the supposed opponent of the teachers’ brainwashing admits his whole mission was to brainwash his own children into blank slatism (i.e. groomed to be “intellectuals” like their father, rather than best equipped to succeed). How noble of him.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/596668/

  57. @Daniel H
    Of course we are not going to worry about the fate of Asians in New York city, but we should also not worry about the fate of whites who are likely to go to the selective public schools. Overwhelmingly their parents are SWPL/SJW whites and they will likely mature to be so too. Sure, a few right whites are going to take the hit if the selective schools are filled by quota, but G*d will recognize his won.

    New York City has to be destroyed in order to save her.

    I live in NYC so this all hits close to home. So far so good for my kids but we’ll see how far they take this. I don’t think NYC will be destroyed any time soon. People still seem to want to visit.

    The DOE was encouraging all parents to let their kids take time off from school for the climate strike. Our daughter’s primary school sent around an email. Absences are usually strictly scrutinized and counted against your applications to certain middle and high schools, but would be excused to attend the climate strike.

    I didn’t give permission. Not that I feel that strongly about the issue one way or another. I asked my daughter if any of her friends went to the climate strike. She said no. And she didn’t ask about it. She did spend the drive out to Long Island Friday evening counting the black garbage bags on the side of the highway. Probably body parts she speculated.

  58. @Hail
    David E. Kirkland
    - born circa mid-1970s in Detroit; critical developmental years in 1980s Detroit
    - He provides a frank interview about his family origins in a 2015 interview, incl.:

    Socially, I grew up as what people would consider low-SES (low socioeconomic status), but my family had a lot of (cultural) wealth. My mother was a prostitute. My father wasn’t always present. I was homeless for at least a year of my life. [...]
     
    Degrees
    - 1998: BA, English & History, Michigan State;
    - Early 2000s: MS, Univ. of Michigan, Developmental Psychology and MA Western Philosophy [these two degrees (joint, presumably), are mentioned in his public LinkedIn but unusually not on his NYU CV, so unsure of date, most likely they are spring 2002;
    - 2006: PhD, Michigan State. Dissertation title: "The Boys in the Hood: Exploring Literacy in the Social Lives of Six Urban Adolescent Black Males;"
    - 2014: JD, Univ. of Michigan.

    Work
    - Fall 1998 to spring 2003: High school teacher in Detroit and Lansing, Michigan;
    - 2002: First college-level teaching position, Michigan State University College of Education;
    - 2004 to 2006: Wayne State University, College of Urban Affairs and Metropolitan Studies (during PhD work) -- (also, during JD work: Michigan State, Associate Professor English and Urban Education, 2011-2014);
    - Aug. 2006 to Present: New York University, Associate Professor English and Urban Education.

    Ongoing projects while at NYU include:
    - "Teaching Tupac: A Curriculum Guide for Developing 21st Century Literacy Skills" (2007-2010)
    - "Black Lives Matter: A Curriculum Guide for the Critical Teaching of Human Value" (2014-2016)

    Socially, I grew up as what people would consider low-SES (low socioeconomic status), but my family had a lot of (cultural) wealth. My mother was a prostitute. My father wasn’t always present. I was homeless for at least a year of my life. […

    From his twitter:

    All of today, I’ve been inundated with people calling me names and distorting my argument, attempting to pit me against Asians. This is how I know that the perspective is right–it’s challenging people.

    The logic is not strong in this one

    • Replies: @Hail
    Why doesn't he just dismiss it at a Vast, Alt-Right Conspiracy?
  59. https://mobile.twitter.com/davidekirkland/status/1175113064418615297

    Because no you’re no talks about Asian students leaving the system if the system doesn’t cater to them. And no, you are not doing this. You will not put me against my Asian brothers and sisters who have also suffered the sting of exclusion. Naw, bruh.

    Everything you need to know about the intelligence level of diversity hires at top colleges in one tweet.

    • Replies: @res
    And he has a PhD and a JD. Sad.
  60. In Michigan we have schools of choice, a program where a parent can move a child to a nearby district or some ‘charter’ schools, and keep the state funding–in this state all school funding comes from the state. The only hard part is the parent has to provide the transit option to get the kid there and back.

    The black districts, Detroit, Benton Harbor, Pontiac, Flint, are terrible. Not because black kids are evil, just because they average 15 IQ points worse than whites, and they have different cultural standards of behavior. Almost no white or asian kids go to their districts.

    However, the schools of choice are a safety valve. Kids can go to a good district and get a good foundational education with just a little bit of extra effort by the parent. (In theory, high school kids themselves can arrange for their own transit options, but our public bus systems are not good and uber every day adds up quick)

    Seems like an answer NYC could adopt

  61. >Latinx

    using this word alone should be grounds for immediate punishment by being used as artillery practice. You won’t get rid of these commissar types without extreme brutality

  62. NYC is unique in that it’s a place with a large number of upper middle to wealthy people who can afford to live there and avoid the mess that is the public school system if they want to – smaller cities face a lot more quality of life competition from their suburbs, and the percentage of parents who have the means to opt out (coupled with fewer private school options) is much lower. So the powers that be in NYC don’t really care that much if they shove a lot of white kids out of the public school system because most of the parents are not going to leave town since they can afford private school.

    Now if you are a 2nd or 3rd tier large city and the politicians are desperate to keep whites (ie taxpayers) in the city, they face a balancing act between appeasing the SJWs and the parents of majority-minority school districts and also keeping enough white kids in the schools so the city’s tax base doesn’t erode. The result are public magnet schools and the like where district officials trying to create the appearance of diversity but not so much that white parents feel like their kids’ interests are in 2nd place….but eventually the woke notice that certain schools that are smoking all the rest in testing also have demographics that don’t reflect the district and they demand changes.

    • Replies: @Hhsiii
    I am decidedly middle and really can’t afford private school. I am paying for therapy/daycare (Theraplay) for the littlest of my 3 this year, although the City would have sent him to special 3k. But my wife didn’t want him to be socialized with the kids there. So I’m sucking it up for one year. Next year he will go to regular zoned pre-k.

    I may ultimately be forced out of the City if they insist every school must be exactly the same ratio as the public school population as a whole. That’s true of a lot of parents I know.

    I’m just lazy really and dread the thought of a daily commute beyond the half hour I already spend on the subway each day. But I like the City life so probably an odd duck (but not a Tiny one) among isteve commentariat. Been here over 30 years. It’s noticeably safer and cleaner now. Worst that ever happened here was getting mugged for $10 in the ‘80s. Public school in NJ was tougher.

    But right now resting in a hammock by the pool at my sister’s place in East Quogue, I think I could get used to the ‘burbs again.
  63. @anonymous
    For him, this is a boast: "Look how smart I am...to overcome all that!"

    No pride or feeling for the people that brought him into the world at all.

    Yes, one wonders what his mother thinks of being called a prostitute. He might even be exaggerating for effect. It reminds me of when Obama threw his grandmother under the bus while seeking absolution for his association with Reverend Wright. He said she was scared of black men when actually it was a particular black man she was scared of, one who had harassed her at the bus stop.

  64. @Redneck farmer
    "....modern day eugenics". So, if black and Hispanic kids don't get in the selective schools, they get sterilized?

    No. It’s that high IQ Whites and Asians will breed and after the first generation, never out-mix and we are going to cull the bottom 10% every generation and have the highest IQ couples have the most kids, and in 1000 years? Watch out!

  65. @International Jew
    The Asian advantage is more pronounced at the high schools because at that level the admissions are a lot more selective. This reflects the accelerating thinning in the tail of the normal distribution.

    That’s a good response. If you are following the Chisala thread you might have noticed I used exactly that argument with respect to his Stuyvesant/Caltech comparison.

    I don’t think it applies here though (at least not to an important extent). In the iSteve graphic we see that Asians and whites are almost evenly represented in both the population and K G&T. Trying to put some numbers here, demographic snapshot at https://infohub.nyced.org/reports-and-policies/citywide-information-and-data/information-and-data-overview says there are about 80k students in kindergarten. According to this WSJ article: https://www.wsj.com/articles/some-parents-pay-up-to-400-an-hour-to-prep-4-year-olds-for-nycs-gifted-test-1538568001

    More than 14,500 preschoolers took the test to enter kindergarten gifted programs last winter and only 2,305 were offered seats this fall, according to city data.

    So we are looking at a 1 in 80/2.3 = 35 threshold. Naively this is a bit less than 2 SD. Given the NAM proportions in the base population, let’s call it 1.5 SD = IQ 122.

    That threshold is not that high (lower than my estimates of 2 and 3 SD for Stuyvesant and Caltech respectively) but high enough that if there is a significant difference in average ability for kindergarten Asians/whites (like we see in HS!) then we should see it in the K G&T proportions. Since we see essentially no difference between K Asians and whites in G&T representation I think it is fair to argue the difference in average ability is also small.

    To make this more concrete, using Emil’s tail calculator with a threshold of 122 and an assumed Asian mean of 105 we should see about a 2:1 ratio over the threshold.
    http://emilkirkegaard.dk/understanding_statistics/?app=tail_effects
    Even a 2 point advantage translates to a 4:3 ratio over the threshold.

    I consider this argument especially persuasive against Chisala’s thesis because NYC K G&T and specialized high schools are drawing from essentially the same base population just shifted in time.

    What do you think?

    P.S. Stuyvesant might be more selective, but based on the numbers (there are about 75k students in NYC grade 8 from link above and 5k specialized high school offers https://www.chalkbeat.org/posts/ny/2019/03/19/by-the-numbers-new-york-citys-specialized-high-school-offers/ ) ALL of the specialized HS together end up being about half as selective as K G&T.

  66. @International Jew
    The Asian advantage is more pronounced at the high schools because at that level the admissions are a lot more selective. This reflects the accelerating thinning in the tail of the normal distribution.

    I think also a lot of whites simply leave the system by the high school level so the percentages in the public school probably have to be recalculated as the students age. For instance, I don’t know any white parents whose children attended public high school in the city (except for the Science and/or Music/Art schools); but most of them do attend the pre-K and kindergarden classes in public school…then at the end of each school year the numbers start to fall and maybe one third to half are gone by middle school (either private or moved to a better public school system). Finally by high school it’s down to single digits…

    So that 15% of white students doesn’t remain stable over time. It gets smaller with each passing year.

    • Replies: @Hhsiii
    True somewhat, but whites do got to Eleanor Roosevelt on UES, LaGuardia, etc. Clinton.
  67. @Arclight
    NYC is unique in that it's a place with a large number of upper middle to wealthy people who can afford to live there and avoid the mess that is the public school system if they want to - smaller cities face a lot more quality of life competition from their suburbs, and the percentage of parents who have the means to opt out (coupled with fewer private school options) is much lower. So the powers that be in NYC don't really care that much if they shove a lot of white kids out of the public school system because most of the parents are not going to leave town since they can afford private school.

    Now if you are a 2nd or 3rd tier large city and the politicians are desperate to keep whites (ie taxpayers) in the city, they face a balancing act between appeasing the SJWs and the parents of majority-minority school districts and also keeping enough white kids in the schools so the city's tax base doesn't erode. The result are public magnet schools and the like where district officials trying to create the appearance of diversity but not so much that white parents feel like their kids' interests are in 2nd place....but eventually the woke notice that certain schools that are smoking all the rest in testing also have demographics that don't reflect the district and they demand changes.

    I am decidedly middle and really can’t afford private school. I am paying for therapy/daycare (Theraplay) for the littlest of my 3 this year, although the City would have sent him to special 3k. But my wife didn’t want him to be socialized with the kids there. So I’m sucking it up for one year. Next year he will go to regular zoned pre-k.

    I may ultimately be forced out of the City if they insist every school must be exactly the same ratio as the public school population as a whole. That’s true of a lot of parents I know.

    I’m just lazy really and dread the thought of a daily commute beyond the half hour I already spend on the subway each day. But I like the City life so probably an odd duck (but not a Tiny one) among isteve commentariat. Been here over 30 years. It’s noticeably safer and cleaner now. Worst that ever happened here was getting mugged for $10 in the ‘80s. Public school in NJ was tougher.

    But right now resting in a hammock by the pool at my sister’s place in East Quogue, I think I could get used to the ‘burbs again.

    • Replies: @Arclight
    I too prefer city life, but left a large East Coast city some years ago for a not quite as large midwestern one, and although it's not as exciting it suits family life a lot better. My house would have cost five times as much for the same thing back east, crime is lower, and city services are better.

    That's not to say we don't have some of the same issues, particularly on the education front. My kids have attended both private and public schools, but public school was a pretty short experiment. Even at one of the supposedly promising magnet schools, the classroom situation was pretty chaotic and the coursework (when they could get to it) was well below my kids' ability level. I know a couple of new teachers at one of the better charter schools, and one of them was relating her typical day there, which consists of roughly a quarter of the class serving out of school suspension at any given time and multiple calls per day to the resource officer (school cop) to get some student who just randomly decides to bolt the room, not listen, fight etc. This is an elementary school. I think a lot of the politicians and progressive activists are completely disconnected from what life (and the associated behaviors) in the lower and/or minority classes are like.
  68. Whites inside a city are taxpayers but also consumers of urban services, and potential rivals for POC patronage appointments, and might vote for reform candidates in urban elections.

    Whites outside cities are (Federal and State level) taxable supporters of urban services that they do not consume, and are not rivals for POC patronage appointments, and cannot vote for reform candidates in urban elections.

    The obvious course of action to the political mind is to drive Whites out of cities.

    This trend has become counterproductive, but, as in the case of evolutionary equilibrium strategies (EES), if the EES is a negative sum game in some specific environment, the species employing it goes extinct in that environment.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Agree: Mark G.
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    as in the case of evolutionary equilibrium strategies (EES), if the EES is a negative sum game in some specific environment, the species employing it goes extinct in that environment.
     
    Please explain.
  69. @Alfa158
    I believe he thinks that the gifted program actually takes non-gifted kids and turns them into gifted kids. White kids get put in these programs and get to become gifted. Black kids don’t get put into the program and therefore don’t become gifted.

    It makes me wonder what his college (not to mention graduate and law school) experience was like. Most people who take classes of any difficulty in college get a reality check about the hierarchy of ability and where they fit in it. And that it is not just a social construct.

    Alternatively he is just another race hustler and really does know the score.

    • Replies: @Lawyer Guy
    I went to Michigan Law school. Then they had, and I understand they still do, a special deal for black students. They get a special preexam for each course, and personal counseling sessions with each prof, so they can pass their classes.

    Another giveaway is that he has a JD, but no serious bar admissions. A vague plan to give blacks bar admissions below the cut has been floated, but never passed. With very few exceptions, bar exams are tough, and getting tougher every year.
    , @Anon

    It makes me wonder what his college (not to mention graduate and law school) experience was like. Most people who take classes of any difficulty in college get a reality check about the hierarchy of ability and where they fit in it. And that it is not just a social construct.
     
    Some groups get hit with Dunning-Kruger harder than others.

    Add to that effect an entire system devoted to telling these groups that any disparities they may think they see are just the result of cheating and oppression by white people.

    We have created a Dunning- Kruger effect on steroids in the United States.
  70. “Oddly, the word ‘Asian’ doesn’t appear in this op-ed, even though the same report that Mr. Kirkland is getting his numbers from shows that Asians outnumber whites in NYC schools overall, 18% to 17%, and in share of Gifted and Talented, 42% to 39%.”

    And yet liberal media get indignant when criticized as fraudsters!

  71. @nymom
    I think also a lot of whites simply leave the system by the high school level so the percentages in the public school probably have to be recalculated as the students age. For instance, I don't know any white parents whose children attended public high school in the city (except for the Science and/or Music/Art schools); but most of them do attend the pre-K and kindergarden classes in public school...then at the end of each school year the numbers start to fall and maybe one third to half are gone by middle school (either private or moved to a better public school system). Finally by high school it's down to single digits...

    So that 15% of white students doesn't remain stable over time. It gets smaller with each passing year.

    True somewhat, but whites do got to Eleanor Roosevelt on UES, LaGuardia, etc. Clinton.

  72. @Hhsiii
    I am decidedly middle and really can’t afford private school. I am paying for therapy/daycare (Theraplay) for the littlest of my 3 this year, although the City would have sent him to special 3k. But my wife didn’t want him to be socialized with the kids there. So I’m sucking it up for one year. Next year he will go to regular zoned pre-k.

    I may ultimately be forced out of the City if they insist every school must be exactly the same ratio as the public school population as a whole. That’s true of a lot of parents I know.

    I’m just lazy really and dread the thought of a daily commute beyond the half hour I already spend on the subway each day. But I like the City life so probably an odd duck (but not a Tiny one) among isteve commentariat. Been here over 30 years. It’s noticeably safer and cleaner now. Worst that ever happened here was getting mugged for $10 in the ‘80s. Public school in NJ was tougher.

    But right now resting in a hammock by the pool at my sister’s place in East Quogue, I think I could get used to the ‘burbs again.

    I too prefer city life, but left a large East Coast city some years ago for a not quite as large midwestern one, and although it’s not as exciting it suits family life a lot better. My house would have cost five times as much for the same thing back east, crime is lower, and city services are better.

    That’s not to say we don’t have some of the same issues, particularly on the education front. My kids have attended both private and public schools, but public school was a pretty short experiment. Even at one of the supposedly promising magnet schools, the classroom situation was pretty chaotic and the coursework (when they could get to it) was well below my kids’ ability level. I know a couple of new teachers at one of the better charter schools, and one of them was relating her typical day there, which consists of roughly a quarter of the class serving out of school suspension at any given time and multiple calls per day to the resource officer (school cop) to get some student who just randomly decides to bolt the room, not listen, fight etc. This is an elementary school. I think a lot of the politicians and progressive activists are completely disconnected from what life (and the associated behaviors) in the lower and/or minority classes are like.

  73. At my high school, like most high schools by then, we had campus police. The folks who served in this role were properly called police officers. They had all the same training and credentials as any other peace officer. We all called them “the police” or “the cops.” We might say “campus police” to specify we were referring to them, just as one might say “Seattle police” to clarify one is not referring to the King County Sheriff’s deputies if the conversation warrants it.

    Elementary schools did NOT have police officers. For one thing, children in elementary schools are effectively incapable of resisting the authority of any adult teacher, even a female. For another, children in elementary schools were not committing anything that can meaningfully be called a crime, in the way those in high school can and do.

    I see all of it has changed, but we still don’t have any police officers in elementary schools.

    Thankfully, though, we have “resource officers” – who, presumably, ration food or oversee coal mining….

  74. @AnotherDad
    I didn't get around to making this point on Steve's post, on the Packer article, but it's obvious:

    Education of any quality is *not* an inherently scarce good.

    It is simply not inherently limited like say beachfront property or a house in the Hamptons. A Harvard degree is a scarce good only because Harvard has a monopoly on granting Harvard degrees.

    But a good rigorous education is not the least bit difficult to supply, even in the current Fordist, pile 'em into the classroom model, and i believe it's possible to do much better now.

    So the "good schools" connumdrum is easily solved by just vouchering the whole thing out and letting parents pick the schools that deliver what they want for their kids.

    Packer apparently just wanted old style good white education, where his kids would learn that people like ... uh ... Packer! are actually good white heroes, as opposed to bad whites like me, and for his kids to have old style separate boys and girls bathrooms. There are probably near 100,000 kids in NYC whose parents want something in this ballpark, so Packer would have lots of options with educational choice.

    And Kirkland could send his kids to a school with a program he liked.

    So this should be "win win". Of course, the obvious barrier is all the iron rice bowls in the NYC public school system.

    But what's going on here goes beyond that. It's classic minoritarianism. The minorities greatest aniexty is the thought of white people escaping and doing their own thing.

    The same reason the Democrats coalition of the fringes is united against the thought of use deplorables separating and having our own traditional American nation.


    That said, watching all these good whites like Packer see their kids screwed by minoritarianism ... couldn't happen to a nicer guy!

    Education of any quality is *not* an inherently scarce good.

    It is simply not inherently limited like say beachfront property or a house in the Hamptons. A Harvard degree is a scarce good only because Harvard has a monopoly on granting Harvard degrees.

    It’s true that the opportunity to learn actual academic subject matter is not an inherently scarce good. But the other, perhaps more important, part of a school is what kids “learn” from their peers. Unlike access to academic knowledge, the opportunity to associate with “high quality” peers is a scarce and valuable commodity.

    Parents don’t want their kids associating with dysfunctional “losers” (for lack of a better term) for fear that loser qualities will rub off on their kids. This concern is totally rational and normal. But it’s utterly un-PC. So Good White parents can only express their concern through proxy language and code words like “good schools” and “high test scores.”

    On the flip side, blacks and white SJWs can’t admit that the purpose of “integration” is to free blacks from the harm caused by associating with other blacks (and to spread that harm instead among other groups). So they have to speak in their own code words like “ending segregation,” without ever explaining why the racial mix of a school has anything to do with students’ ability to learn.

    These two sets of phony arguments sail past each other like ships in the night.

    • Replies: @houston 1992
    "It’s true that the opportunity to learn actual academic subject matter is not an inherently scarce good. But the other, perhaps more important, part of a school is what kids “learn” from their peers. Unlike access to academic knowledge, the opportunity to associate with “high quality” peers is a scarce and valuable commodity. "


    Hypnotoad666 : alto my instincts support what you are saying, does not the recent Plomin book , Blueprint, reject this......education matters, but private versus non fee paying schools dont make a difference. Does not Plomin recommend to UK parents to send their kids to the local "comprehensive" non-fee versus the fee paying school?
  75. @Hypnotoad666

    Education of any quality is *not* an inherently scarce good.

    It is simply not inherently limited like say beachfront property or a house in the Hamptons. A Harvard degree is a scarce good only because Harvard has a monopoly on granting Harvard degrees.
     

    It's true that the opportunity to learn actual academic subject matter is not an inherently scarce good. But the other, perhaps more important, part of a school is what kids "learn" from their peers. Unlike access to academic knowledge, the opportunity to associate with "high quality" peers is a scarce and valuable commodity.

    Parents don't want their kids associating with dysfunctional "losers" (for lack of a better term) for fear that loser qualities will rub off on their kids. This concern is totally rational and normal. But it's utterly un-PC. So Good White parents can only express their concern through proxy language and code words like "good schools" and "high test scores."

    On the flip side, blacks and white SJWs can't admit that the purpose of "integration" is to free blacks from the harm caused by associating with other blacks (and to spread that harm instead among other groups). So they have to speak in their own code words like "ending segregation," without ever explaining why the racial mix of a school has anything to do with students' ability to learn.

    These two sets of phony arguments sail past each other like ships in the night.

    “It’s true that the opportunity to learn actual academic subject matter is not an inherently scarce good. But the other, perhaps more important, part of a school is what kids “learn” from their peers. Unlike access to academic knowledge, the opportunity to associate with “high quality” peers is a scarce and valuable commodity. ”

    Hypnotoad666 : alto my instincts support what you are saying, does not the recent Plomin book , Blueprint, reject this……education matters, but private versus non fee paying schools dont make a difference. Does not Plomin recommend to UK parents to send their kids to the local “comprehensive” non-fee versus the fee paying school?

    • Replies: @Hypnotoad666

    does not the recent Plomin book , Blueprint, reject this……education matters, but private versus non fee paying schools dont make a difference.
     
    I only sort of skimmed Plomin's book. But when he says private vs. public schools "don't make a difference" he may just be referring to academic learning and not the effect on less tangible, hard-to-quantify outcomes like character, values, and habits.

    I don't know if the research has been done to really isolate the effects of peer association from all the other variables in life success. Maybe it doesn't have that much effect in the end. Or, maybe peer association is super-important, but so random in its influence that you can't predict or control for its effect.

    But I do think parents certainly have a perception that associating with "good kids" rather than "bad influences" is very important. Until that perception goes away, their will be competition over who gets to go to school with the "good kids," and who gets stuck with the "bad influences."
  76. @Aft
    ....

    https://www.chalkbeat.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Kirkland-900x0-c-default.jpg

    Some of the books in front of his laptop that day in Jan. 2017 [?] appear to be:

    BLACK STATS: African Americans by the Numbers in the Twenty-First Century
    by Monique W. Morris (2014)

    PUSHOUT: The Criminalization of Black Girls in Schools
    by Monique W. Morris (2015)

    MILK AND HONEY
    by Rupi Kaur (2014)
    ‘Milk and Honey’ is a collection of poetry and prose about survival. About the experience of violence, abuse, love, loss, and femininity.

    Rupi Kaur was born into a Sikh family in Punjab, India.[7] She emigrated to Canada with her parents when she was four years old.

  77. @Aft

    Socially, I grew up as what people would consider low-SES (low socioeconomic status), but my family had a lot of (cultural) wealth. My mother was a prostitute. My father wasn’t always present. I was homeless for at least a year of my life. […
     
    From his twitter:

    All of today, I've been inundated with people calling me names and distorting my argument, attempting to pit me against Asians. This is how I know that the perspective is right--it's challenging people.
     
    The logic is not strong in this one

    Why doesn’t he just dismiss it at a Vast, Alt-Right Conspiracy?

  78. @leopard
    Rushton is an idiot according to razib khan.

    Rushton is an idiot according to razib khan.

    Now that was a compelling argument. Would you care to provide a reference?

  79. @Aft
    https://mobile.twitter.com/davidekirkland/status/1175113064418615297

    Because no you’re no talks about Asian students leaving the system if the system doesn’t cater to them. And no, you are not doing this. You will not put me against my Asian brothers and sisters who have also suffered the sting of exclusion. Naw, bruh.
     
    Everything you need to know about the intelligence level of diversity hires at top colleges in one tweet.

    And he has a PhD and a JD. Sad.

    • Replies: @Aft
    About two standard deviations away from being invited to the gifted program, which is why he's more than happy to tear it down.

    To think of all the talented men and women denied tenure to instead promote this guy who can neither dress professionally nor command the English language at even a high school level.

  80. @res
    It makes me wonder what his college (not to mention graduate and law school) experience was like. Most people who take classes of any difficulty in college get a reality check about the hierarchy of ability and where they fit in it. And that it is not just a social construct.

    Alternatively he is just another race hustler and really does know the score.

    I went to Michigan Law school. Then they had, and I understand they still do, a special deal for black students. They get a special preexam for each course, and personal counseling sessions with each prof, so they can pass their classes.

    Another giveaway is that he has a JD, but no serious bar admissions. A vague plan to give blacks bar admissions below the cut has been floated, but never passed. With very few exceptions, bar exams are tough, and getting tougher every year.

  81. … This is a modern-day-eugenics project — one manufactured based on spurious science and reinforced by institutional consent. …

    I have said before that there are a lot of “reverse eugenicists” who believe that it is blacks who are the superior race because of their ability to push everyone else around. It seems that these people believe that African cannibalism is not just a survival trait but an admirable characteristic.

    I have also said that the brand of Socialism supported by African radicals such as Robert Mugabe is not Communism so much as Fascism. Replace all those Blond-Hair-Blue-Eyed Supermen with African Warriors and you have their idea of a racial utopia.

  82. @dr kill
    There are so many educational opportunities available to young families it is difficult not to yawn at this NYC back and forth.

    There are so many educational opportunities available to young families it is difficult not to yawn at this NYC back and forth.

    Such as what?

  83. @Counterinsurgency
    Whites inside a city are taxpayers but also consumers of urban services, and potential rivals for POC patronage appointments, and might vote for reform candidates in urban elections.

    Whites outside cities are (Federal and State level) taxable supporters of urban services that they do not consume, and are not rivals for POC patronage appointments, and cannot vote for reform candidates in urban elections.

    The obvious course of action to the political mind is to drive Whites out of cities.

    This trend has become counterproductive, but, as in the case of evolutionary equilibrium strategies (EES), if the EES is a negative sum game in some specific environment, the species employing it goes extinct in that environment.

    Counterinsurgency

    as in the case of evolutionary equilibrium strategies (EES), if the EES is a negative sum game in some specific environment, the species employing it goes extinct in that environment.

    Please explain.

    • Replies: @Harry Baldwin
    Anonymous[125], you should choose "Please explain" as your pseudonym and stick with it.
  84. @Anonymous

    as in the case of evolutionary equilibrium strategies (EES), if the EES is a negative sum game in some specific environment, the species employing it goes extinct in that environment.
     
    Please explain.

    Anonymous[125], you should choose “Please explain” as your pseudonym and stick with it.

    • Agree: William Badwhite
  85. @res
    And he has a PhD and a JD. Sad.

    About two standard deviations away from being invited to the gifted program, which is why he’s more than happy to tear it down.

    To think of all the talented men and women denied tenure to instead promote this guy who can neither dress professionally nor command the English language at even a high school level.

  86. Anon[121] • Disclaimer says:
    @res
    It makes me wonder what his college (not to mention graduate and law school) experience was like. Most people who take classes of any difficulty in college get a reality check about the hierarchy of ability and where they fit in it. And that it is not just a social construct.

    Alternatively he is just another race hustler and really does know the score.

    It makes me wonder what his college (not to mention graduate and law school) experience was like. Most people who take classes of any difficulty in college get a reality check about the hierarchy of ability and where they fit in it. And that it is not just a social construct.

    Some groups get hit with Dunning-Kruger harder than others.

    Add to that effect an entire system devoted to telling these groups that any disparities they may think they see are just the result of cheating and oppression by white people.

    We have created a Dunning- Kruger effect on steroids in the United States.

  87. @res
    That graphic makes for a pretty good argument against one thesis of Chanda Chisala's latest post: http://www.unz.com/article/why-harvard-is-right-to-discriminate-against-asians/

    He contends:

    In this article, I will argue that young East Asians develop their cognitive abilities faster than the young of every other population and thus reach their full mental capacity much earlier than everyone else.
     
    Yet in the graphic we see Asians and whites almost equally represented in Kindergarten G&T. While at the specialized high school level Asians strongly outnumber whites: https://www.chalkbeat.org/posts/ny/2019/03/19/by-the-numbers-new-york-citys-specialized-high-school-offers/

    It's almost like Rushton might be right rather than Chisala. Also from the first link above:

    Hereditarian IQ expert, J Phillippe Rushton, seemed to suggest that East Asians actually develop slower than everyone else, biologically, which would imply that even their cognitive ability develops more slowly.

     

    Back to this iSteve post. I wonder if Kirkland really thinks the science is spurious, or if he just likes the alliteration? Perhaps someone should ask him just what is spurious about the science involved?

    We are discussing this in the Chisala thread: http://www.unz.com/article/why-harvard-is-right-to-discriminate-against-asians/
    The NYC schools information there might be of interest to others here.

    In particular, this brief gives a fascinating look at the evolution of racial test gaps between third and eighth grades:
    https://ibo.nyc.ny.us/iboreports/from-grades-3-to-8-tracing-changes-in-achievement-gaps-by-race-and-gender-in-new-york-city-public-schools-december-201.html
    That’s the best data of the sort I have seen. If anyone knows of anything comparable please post a link.

    Table 8 makes a good summary.

  88. Send the kids to private school. Problem solved.

  89. My parents came to the US from India, I went to Stuyvesant for high school and MIT for undergrad when I was 16. I’m pretty smart. I also worked my butt off and my parents did things that helped like, stay married, read to us when we were little, supervise our schoolwork, make sure we had healthy home-cooked meals and went to bed at a decent hour. My parents didn’t have much money, BTW, we lived in a working class neighborhood.

    I’m visiting some white friends right now in the Czech Republic. They have 3 adorable daughters. And the mom is awesome – she does all sorts of teaching things with her kids. She keeps them active, does these “word card” games so they expand their vocabulary, reads to them, paints with them… in other words, what a mom is supposed to do if she wants her kids to excel. She does this stuff on the weekends and evenings since she also works a full time job.

    It’s not mystery how kids from some backgrounds do better than kids from other backgrounds despite the parents not having a lot of money. Some parents just care about their kids and show that through things like discipline and play, while others stick the kid in front of a TV set. Or leave the kid home alone.

    A white friend of mine is dating a black girl. She has a 10 year old son. She leaves him alone at night so she can go out on dates with my white friend and spend the night. A 10 year old. Alone. All night.

    I was APPALLED. I have lost all respect for my friend. It’s not that the woman is black it’s that she’s a rotten human being who doesn’t provide the bare minimum care that even a monkey in a zoo will provide their child. Even my dog would do better.

    I have other black friends who are decent people and good parents.

    One reason I believe in a meritocracy vs. tribalism – the cream always rises to the top. And if it happens to be black or brown – it can still rise in a meritocracy. Look at people like Dr. Ben Carson. And I don’t think it’s OK to discriminate against whites.

    Some whites were racist a couple of generations back, BFD. You can waste your energy on revenge fantasies or just do what you need to do to make a better life for yourself. Maybe a little self examination and self improvement would be a better use of time too.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    the cream always rises to the top

    The cream can't rise to the top when a committee for public safety identifies the cream as thinking the wrong thoughts.
  90. @houston 1992
    "It’s true that the opportunity to learn actual academic subject matter is not an inherently scarce good. But the other, perhaps more important, part of a school is what kids “learn” from their peers. Unlike access to academic knowledge, the opportunity to associate with “high quality” peers is a scarce and valuable commodity. "


    Hypnotoad666 : alto my instincts support what you are saying, does not the recent Plomin book , Blueprint, reject this......education matters, but private versus non fee paying schools dont make a difference. Does not Plomin recommend to UK parents to send their kids to the local "comprehensive" non-fee versus the fee paying school?

    does not the recent Plomin book , Blueprint, reject this……education matters, but private versus non fee paying schools dont make a difference.

    I only sort of skimmed Plomin’s book. But when he says private vs. public schools “don’t make a difference” he may just be referring to academic learning and not the effect on less tangible, hard-to-quantify outcomes like character, values, and habits.

    I don’t know if the research has been done to really isolate the effects of peer association from all the other variables in life success. Maybe it doesn’t have that much effect in the end. Or, maybe peer association is super-important, but so random in its influence that you can’t predict or control for its effect.

    But I do think parents certainly have a perception that associating with “good kids” rather than “bad influences” is very important. Until that perception goes away, their will be competition over who gets to go to school with the “good kids,” and who gets stuck with the “bad influences.”

  91. @PSR
    His entire argument - lengthy and convoluted and dressed up with politically correct double speak - boils down to ‘Asian and white kids on average are smarter than black and Latino kids and it pisses me off.’ That’s it.

    For almost 20 years! In Finland, where most of the kids are white (duh) only a few MENA kids get into the top Bac HS’s.

    Super smart East Asians (have been there for 30+ years) ace the tests along with ethnic Finns….and, realistically, a much smaller proportion of girls.

    Now, there are some other Bac HS’s that are arts and languages oriented which gain more of a mixed bag of kids; and, the Swedish speaking Bac HS’s offer opportunities beyond Finland, but, you have to be fluent in Swedish, which is an easier language than Finnish.

  92. @Hypnotoad666
    Who can be taken seriously when they use creepy SJW language like that.

    For example, Whites are "children" but black and brown people are "bodies."

    And school assignments are a form of "eugenics?" I suspect he doesn't know what the word actually means.

    Not to mention the preposterous "Latinx," which sounds like an open source programing language.

    It also plays on stereotypes that black and brown bodies, in contrast to a middle-class white norm, somehow lack virtue and merit or other fictive devices employed to legitimate the lies that uphold separate and unequal education.

    How about “fictive devices”? Is it that he doesn’t quite want to say that “virtue” and “merit” are fictions because that would be stupid, or is “fictive devices” a fancy construction, complete with a few extra syllables beyond what are necessary to convey the meaning, to show that he is smarter than us?

  93. @Shefali
    My parents came to the US from India, I went to Stuyvesant for high school and MIT for undergrad when I was 16. I’m pretty smart. I also worked my butt off and my parents did things that helped like, stay married, read to us when we were little, supervise our schoolwork, make sure we had healthy home-cooked meals and went to bed at a decent hour. My parents didn’t have much money, BTW, we lived in a working class neighborhood.

    I’m visiting some white friends right now in the Czech Republic. They have 3 adorable daughters. And the mom is awesome - she does all sorts of teaching things with her kids. She keeps them active, does these “word card” games so they expand their vocabulary, reads to them, paints with them... in other words, what a mom is supposed to do if she wants her kids to excel. She does this stuff on the weekends and evenings since she also works a full time job.

    It’s not mystery how kids from some backgrounds do better than kids from other backgrounds despite the parents not having a lot of money. Some parents just care about their kids and show that through things like discipline and play, while others stick the kid in front of a TV set. Or leave the kid home alone.

    A white friend of mine is dating a black girl. She has a 10 year old son. She leaves him alone at night so she can go out on dates with my white friend and spend the night. A 10 year old. Alone. All night.

    I was APPALLED. I have lost all respect for my friend. It’s not that the woman is black it’s that she’s a rotten human being who doesn’t provide the bare minimum care that even a monkey in a zoo will provide their child. Even my dog would do better.

    I have other black friends who are decent people and good parents.

    One reason I believe in a meritocracy vs. tribalism - the cream always rises to the top. And if it happens to be black or brown - it can still rise in a meritocracy. Look at people like Dr. Ben Carson. And I don’t think it’s OK to discriminate against whites.

    Some whites were racist a couple of generations back, BFD. You can waste your energy on revenge fantasies or just do what you need to do to make a better life for yourself. Maybe a little self examination and self improvement would be a better use of time too.

    the cream always rises to the top

    The cream can’t rise to the top when a committee for public safety identifies the cream as thinking the wrong thoughts.

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