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From Bloomberg:

Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to $9-an-Hour Engineers
By Peter Robison
June 28, 2019, 1:46 PM PDT

Planemaker and suppliers used lower-paid temporary workers
Engineers feared the practice meant code wasn’t done right

It remains the mystery at the heart of Boeing Co.’s 737 Max crisis: how a company renowned for meticulous design made seemingly basic software mistakes leading to a pair of deadly crashes. Longtime Boeing engineers say the effort was complicated by a push to outsource work to lower-paid contractors.

The Max software — plagued by issues that could keep the planes grounded months longer after U.S. regulators this week revealed a new flaw — was developed at a time Boeing was laying off experienced engineers and pressing suppliers to cut costs.

Increasingly, the iconic American planemaker and its subcontractors have relied on temporary workers making as little as $9 an hour to develop and test software, often from countries lacking a deep background in aerospace — notably India.

In offices across from Seattle’s Boeing Field, recent college graduates employed by the Indian software developer HCL Technologies Ltd. occupied several rows of desks, said Mark Rabin, a former Boeing software engineer who worked in a flight-test group that supported the Max.

The coders from HCL were typically designing to specifications set by Boeing. Still, “it was controversial because it was far less efficient than Boeing engineers just writing the code,” Rabin said. Frequently, he recalled, “it took many rounds going back and forth because the code was not done correctly.”

Boeing’s cultivation of Indian companies appeared to pay other dividends. In recent years, it has won several orders for Indian military and commercial aircraft, such as a $22 billion one in January 2017 to supply SpiceJet Ltd. That order included 100 737-Max 8 jets and represented Boeing’s largest order ever from an Indian airline, a coup in a country dominated by Airbus.

Based on resumes posted on social media, HCL engineers helped develop and test the Max’s flight-display software, while employees from another Indian company, Cyient Ltd., handled software for flight-test equipment. …

Boeing said the company did not rely on engineers from HCL and Cyient for the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, which has been linked to the Lion Air crash last October and the Ethiopian Airlines disaster in March. The Chicago-based planemaker also said it didn’t rely on either firm for another software issue disclosed after the crashes: a cockpit warning light that wasn’t working for most buyers.

I can’t really tell from this article if the Indians were involved in this particular Boeing catastrophe, or if this is just some Americans saying, “Reporters, now that we have your attention, let’s talk about Indians and how they might cause the next disaster.”

Sales are another reason to send the work overseas. In exchange for an $11 billion order in 2005 from Air India, Boeing promised to invest $1.7 billion in Indian companies. That was a boon for HCL and other software developers from India, such as Cyient, whose engineers were widely used in computer-services industries but not yet prominent in aerospace.

Boeing has also expanded a design center in Moscow. At a meeting with a chief 787 engineer in 2008, one staffer complained about sending drawings back to a team in Russia 18 times before they understood that the smoke detectors needed to be connected to the electrical system, said Cynthia Cole, a former Boeing engineer who headed the engineers’ union from 2006 to 2010.

When I think about risking my life to the meticulousness of the engineers of a foreign culture, Russians and Indians are alway on the top of my list. You might prefer Swedes and Japanese, but what do you know?

… With a strong dollar, a big part of the attraction was price. Engineers in India made around $5 an hour; it’s now $9 or $10, compared with $35 to $40 for those in the U.S. on an H1B visa, he said. But he’d tell clients the cheaper hourly wage equated to more like $80 because of the need for supervision, and he said his firm won back some business to fix mistakes.

 
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  1. In the end, they just couldn’t do the needful.

    • Replies: @Helo
    , @Anonymous
  2. More totally OT:

    So, here in 2019 we have the major motion picture release Yesterday from Universal studios that is trying to tell us:

    1) Brown cultural appropriation of white, possibly the whitest, music is totally awesome
    2) White women miscegenating with browns is the bestest thing ever

    Try to watch this trailer without vomiting:

  3. trelane says:

    Just offshore aerospace to Asia. There’s really little point in keeping a Boeing-like enterprise domestic. Offshore it and be done with it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @MBlanc46
  4. Anon[204] • Disclaimer says:

    So you’re saying don’t hire Indians and Russians?

  5. Highly recommend the Seattle Times for more reporting on the 737 Max saga:

    https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/federal-prosecutors-issue-subpoena-for-boeing-787-dreamliner-records/

    This, and other articles are top flight journalism by 2019 standards.

    As for Russian engineers, they managed to come up with this junker that can probably dogfight anything in current Western inventories:

    And don’t peddle the BVR missile crap…there are plenty of quality studies out there that show BVR missile kills are a seriously low percentage of air combat kills.

    The Russians already have plenty of electronic warfare counters to our missile sensors. I know they know how to blow out some of our handheld radios from my day to day work.

    • Replies: @nsa
    , @The Alarmist
    , @awry
  6. Anon[309] • Disclaimer says:

    If coding is outsoursced en masse, less people will go into coding, creating an actual labor shortage here in a necessary skill set.

    You would think the goverment would see this and legislate appropriately…………but I guess not.

  7. Anon[204] • Disclaimer says:

    So we know for a fact that the Russians screwed up…… 18 times.

    We also know that the Indians from HCL screwed up “many” times, but (at least according to Boeing) weren’t employed to develop the MCA system that caused both disasters.

    • LOL: Kyle
  8. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    I can’t really tell from this article if the Indians were involved in this particular Boeing catastrophe, or if this is just some Americans saying, “Reporters, now that we have your attention, let’s talk about Indians and how they might cause the next disaster.”

    I can’t either, but in general, Boeing seems to have been cutting corners in recent years, starting with using software to fix an obvious physical problem (engines that don’t fit under the wings in the usual position), to moving manufacturing to South Carolina (whose former governor, Nikki Haley, now has a sinecure on Boeing’s board).

  9. More payback for colonialism?

  10. I would tend to agree with you on this part, Steve, if the main flaws being discussed are the lack of a warning “light” (really an EICAS advisory or caution message on a screen) and the willy-nilly changing of parameters that caused the stabilizer trim to move faster than initially advertised:

    I can’t really tell from this article if the Indians were involved in this particular Boeing catastrophe, or if this is just some Americans saying, “Reporters, now that we have your attention, let’s talk about Indians and how they might cause the next disaster.”

    Those weren’t truly software problems, per se. How is the lack of a warning message a software issue, or just the changing of parameters that the software uses?

    The real confusion in this Bloomberg article, in Boeing itself, and in the minds of lots of people writing web posts and comment, is between software work and engineering. Engineering deals with physical principals based on math. Software programming does not. They are two different fields, and I hate when people confuse them.

    When the software people are treated as if they are engineers, management must consider that the software people don’t think the same way. Lots of code has bugs, and they get found out in use and fixed one bit at a time, often causing new bugs. Sure it can be tested, but it takes other software to test it (possibly with bugs of its own or at least without all tests being though of). Hardware made by engineers is tested to death before use in the physical world, and there are only certain modes of failure, while software, especially when different “pieces” are connected, seems to have infinite modes of failure.

    It sounds like the lack of thought about the activation/operation of MCAS with only one AOA sensor installed (what?!) is a business/engineering failure though, not a software thing. I’d say the same with the lack of an indication.

    That said, I don’t want lots of .Indians writing software I use, and I really believe IT is going to hell in lots of industries due to the practice of hiring cheap lame-ass programmers.

  11. And then the CEO went through the revolving door to run the Pentagon, for awhile.

    • Replies: @Louis Renault
  12. @Dave Pinsen

    Y’all lucky we can’t call your Yankee ass to the field of honor, Bluebelly!
    Local guy’s story: Business trip to South Carolina. Waiting in a lobby for the meeting to start, starts pacing. Clerk goes, “Y’all from up North?”
    “How’d you know?”
    “Y’all move too fast for someone from down here”.

  13. In that paragraph about the pay, now I can’t tell if he was talking about engineers or programmers. Even 30 years ago, contract engineers could make $40/hr, which would be over $100/hr in today’s much-more-worthless dollars. Oh, but I see that money is for indentured servants , excuse me, H-1B visa people.

    For engineers, I’d want Germans, Japs, Americans, Frenchies, Swiss, etc. before Russians, but I don’t discount the Russians compared to how I would for run-of-the-mill .Indians for programming*. Expect a Russian kook named “FB” to come on here anytime, claiming to be a test pilot, to tell us Boeing will go down the toilet and Communism will produce better hardware from here on out.

    .

    * It sounds harsh, but I wouldn’t have written that 25 years ago, when the .Indians here were some of their brightest people.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Anonymous
  14. This caught my eye when I read the same story on yahoo news earlier this evening.

    In one post, an HCL employee summarized his duties with a reference to the now-infamous model, which started flight tests in January 2016: “Provided quick workaround to resolve production issue which resulted in not delaying flight test of 737-Max (delay in each flight test will cost very big amount for Boeing).”

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeings-737-max-software-outsourced-204657048.html

  15. Anon[328] • Disclaimer says:

    There’s nothing in that article that indicates that bugs in the software had anything to do with the crashes. This is just a case of employees and ex-employees with gripes taking advantage of media thirst for scoops to get their pet intracompany wars some publicity.

    The software, by design, to be specific, by the design of the Boeing staff in the U.S., was written to only use one sensor. The Indian engineers wrote their code to the specs given.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @contriturated anon
  16. guest says:

    “Engineers feared”

    What’s the word for what the people in charge felt? I guess not fear, because if they were that concerned they wouldn’t buy them. But certainly they knew “you get what you pay for,” and that cheap Dot Indians are cheap for a reason.

    Did the muckety-mucks feel anything at all? Slight trepidation? Cynical resignation? Bewildered indifference?

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  17. Boeing has also expanded a design center in Moscow. At a meeting with a chief 787 engineer in 2008, one staffer complained about sending drawings back to a team in Russia 18 times before they understood that the smoke detectors needed to be connected to the electrical system, said Cynthia Cole, a former Boeing engineer who headed the engineers’ union from 2006 to 2010.

    That’s a bit odd. I’m assuming they didn’t use the best Russian aerospace and engineering talent around. Perhaps it was more of a language problem or work culture failure to mesh than an engineering competence issue?

    PiltdownSibling1 used to own a specialty finance software firm in the 1980s and 1990s. He was always on the lookout for Russian emigre programming talent to hire. He said they were the most conceptually creative and high IQ but didn’t suffer fools gladly. Indians were know-it-alls, while Chinese programmers were very hard workers and humble.

    As a footnote, the go-to resource on the internet for matters related to civil aviation is pprune.org, the Professional Pilots Rumor Network. While many of the discussions are Greek to the average non-aviation layperson, it’s nevertheless a good resource to get a sense of what those who are knowledgable are saying about all this.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    , @Charon
    , @Anonymous
  18. “Aviation is the branch of engineering that is least forgiving of mistakes.”

    Freeman Dyson

    • Replies: @BenKenobi
  19. @Dave Pinsen

    Boeing made that decision before Nikki was elected governor and she only got on the board after being invited to leave her role as Secretary of State.

    At a meeting with a chief 787 engineer in 2008, one staffer complained about sending drawings back to a team in Russia 18 times before they understood that the smoke detectors needed to be connected to the electrical system, said Cynthia Cole, a former Boeing engineer who headed the engineers’ union from 2006 to 2010.

    South Carolina being a non-union state didn’t factor into the corporate decision at all.

  20. anon[321] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    moving manufacturing to South Carolina (whose former governor, Nikki Haley, now has a sinecure on Boeing’s board)

    Isn’t she Indian?

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
  21. anon[321] • Disclaimer says:

    “Chicago-based”

    I thought they were in Seattle?

    I figured this might be part of a pattern, what with that other big Washington state company that’s gradually being taken over by Indians.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @bucky
  22. @Buzz Mohawk

    One of their former executives, Alan Mulally, pulled Ford’s fat out of the fire in 2006.

  23. peterike says:

    More troublesome Asians!

    Peterike’s Law: every day, more evidence

  24. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    Indians would be smarter to build simple stuff but to own it themselves, but they are so group dysfunctional they couldn’t keep it together without outside management. There was an Indian company making 1920’s style electric fans they used to sell for good money at chichi furniture places in the US, but they went out of business for seemingly no good reason. Several companies in India build clones of the old slow speed Lister diesel engines:survivalists in the US love them, but the EPA has put the kibosh on importing them.

    Outsourcing flight control real time software to anyone anywhere is stupid in the extreme.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    , @Mr. Anon
  25. guest says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Have Paul and Ringo spoken about this? I mean like in a McCain Live from Hanoi sense?

    Bah, free advertising I guess. They probably got paid well enough to shut even Yoko up.

    The Beatles were very explicit about being inspired by black American music, so not *the* whitest music. But definitely whiteness is in there. The culture of Merseyside, probably some of their various ethnic backgrounds (Paul is Irishy, and the rest of them I dunno but probably somethin).

    • Replies: @Daniel H
  26. When I think about risking my life to the meticulousness of the engineers of a foreign culture, Russians and Indians are alway on the top of my list. You might prefer Swedes and Japanese, but what do you know?

    Pretty sure if Boeing would only entrust all design work to the brave and industrious entirely intact families waiting patiently for admission at our southern border all would soon be right with the world. I have this on good authority from the finest minds at our leading universities backed of course by the newspaper of record.

    • Agree: Buzz Mohawk
    • LOL: AnotherDad
    • Replies: @Father O'Hara
  27. @Dave Pinsen

    Boeing seems to have been cutting corners in recent years, starting with using software to fix an obvious physical problem (engines that don’t fit under the wings in the usual position)

    This is the fundamental problem with the Boeing 737 Max. The design is aerodynamically unstable – i.e. it is impossible for a human pilot to fly without constant correction by high-speed computers.

    Aerodynamic instability is fine for testbed aircraft, maybe even for some military craft fielded in numbers, but it is a horrific idea that should never find its way into any passenger airliner.

    • Agree: Daniel H
  28. @anon

    They moved the headquarters to Chicago over 10 years back for tax reasons. (Washington wasn’t giving them the breaks they wanted.) They don’t build anything in Chicago as far as I know.

  29. DB Cooper says:

    I just updated the following list with the Boeing 737 Max entry. Turns out this is not the first time Indians wreak havoc in Boeing. Its Dreamliner ES software (written by HCL) was banned by the FAA. This list was compiled years ago. I am sure it is much longer now.

    Companies ruined or almost ruined by imported Indian labor in alphabetical order:

    Adaptec – Indian CEO Subramanian Sundaresh fired.
    AIG (signed outsourcing deal in 2007 in Europe with Accenture Indian frauds, collapsed in 2009)
    AirBus (Qantas plane plunged 650 feet injuring passengers when its computer system written by India disengaged the auto-pilot).
    Apple – R&D CLOSED in India in 2006.
    Australia’s National Australia Bank (Outsourced jobs to India in 2007, nationwide ATM and account failure in late 2010).
    Bell Labs (Arun Netravalli took over, closed, turned into a shopping mall)
    Boeing Dreamliner ES software (written by HCL, banned by FAA)
    Boeing – Boeing’s 737 Max Software Outsourced to Indian programmers caused two plane clashes.
    Bristol-Myers-Squibb (Trade Secrets and documents stolen in U.S. by Indian national guest worker)
    Caymas – Startup run by Indian CEO, French director of dev, Chinese tech lead. Closed after 5 years of sucking VC out of America.
    Caterpillar misses earnings a mere 4 months after outsourcing to India, Inc.
    Circuit City – Outsourced all IT to Indian-run IBM and went bankrupt shortly thereafter.
    ComAir crew system run by 100% Indian IT workers caused the 12/25/05 U.S. airport shutdown when they used a short int instead of a long int
    Computer Associates – Former CEO Sanjay Kumar, an Indian national, sentenced to 12 years in federal prison for accounting fraud.
    Deloitte – 2010 – this Indian-packed consulting company is being sued under RICO fraud charges by Marin Country, California for a failed solution.
    Dell – call center (closed in India)
    Delta call centers (closed in India)
    Fannie Mae – Hired large numbers of Indians, had to be bailed out. Indian logic bomb creator found guilty and sent to prison.
    GM – Was booming in 2006, signed $300 million outsourcing deal with Wipro that same year, went bankrupt 3 years later
    HP – Got out of the PC hardware business in 2011 and can’t compete with Apple’s tablets. HP was taken over by Indians and Chinese in 2001. So much for ‘Asian’ talent!
    HSBC ATMs (software taken over by Indians, failed in 2006)
    Intel Whitefield processor project (cancelled, Indian staff canned)
    JetStar Airways computer failure brings down Christchurch airport on 9/17/11. JetStar is owned by Quantas – which is know to have outsourced to India, Inc.
    Lehman (Spectramind software bought by Wipro, ruined, trashed by Indian programmers)
    Medicare – Defrauded by Indian national doctor Arun Sharma & wife in the U.S.
    Microsoft – Employs over 35,000 H-1Bs. Stock used to be $100. Today it’s lucky to be over $25. Not to mention that Vista thing.
    MIT Media Lab Asia (canceled)
    MyNines – A startup founded and run by Indian national Apar Kothari went belly up after throwing millions of America’s VC $ down the drain.
    PeopleSoft (Taken over by Indians in 2000, collapsed).
    PepsiCo – Slides from #1 to #3 during Indian CEO Indra Nooyi’ watch.
    Polycom – Former senior executive Sunil Bhalla charged with insider trading.
    Qantas – See AirBus above
    Quark (Alukah Kamar CEO, fired, lost 60% of its customers to Adobe because Indian-written QuarkExpress 6 was a failure)
    Rolls Royce (Sent aircraft engine work to India in 2006, engines delayed for Boeing 787, and failed on at least 2 Quantas planes in 2010, cost Rolls $500m).
    SAP – Same as Deloitte above in 2010.
    Singapore airlines (IT functions taken over in 2009 by TCS, website trashed in August, 2011)
    Skype (Madhu Yarlagadda fired)
    State of Indiana $867 million FAILED IBM project, IBM being sued
    State of Texas failed IBM project.
    Sun Micro (Taken over by Indian and Chinese workers in 2001, collapsed, had to be sold off to Oracle).
    UK’s NHS outsourced numerous jobs including health records to India in mid-2000 resulting in $26 billion over budget.
    Union Bank of California – Cancelled Finacle project run by India’s InfoSys in 2011.
    United – call center (closed in India)
    Victorian Order of Nurses, Canada (Payroll system screwed up by SAP/IBM in mid-2011)
    Virgin Atlantic (software written in India caused cloud IT failure)
    World Bank (Indian fraudsters BANNED for 3 years because they stole data).

    • Agree: jim jones, JMcG
  30. John Fogerty was prescient:

    Seven-Thirty-Seven comin’ out of the sky…

    –“Travelin’ Band”

    Will he continue to play that now? Katrina and the Waves were in an unfortunate position after 2005:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katrina_and_the_Waves#Impact_of_Hurricane_%22Katrina%22_(2005)

  31. @anon

    moving manufacturing to South Carolina (whose former governor, Nikki Haley, now has a sinecure on Boeing’s board)

    Isn’t she Indian?

    You think?

    • LOL: jim jones
    • Replies: @Lot
  32. @The Wild Geese Howard

    There’s also another movie about a brown guy in the UK who becomes obsessed with the music of Bruce Springsteen, and of course there are obligatory scenes of him getting attacked by evil white Britons for being brown

    A mere cohencidence, I’m sure. The message seems loud and clear: even when white men wildly succeed artistically, their legacy belongs to the new brown “westerners”.

  33. guest says:
    @Redneck farmer

    When did we colonize India? Or doesn’t the subcontinent feel the need to discriminate between rebels and redcoats?

    Fine, let’s treat them like Pakis. See how they enjoy it.

  34. bucky says:
    @anon

    They were Seattle, yes.

    They relocated to Chicago because the CEO’s wife or somesuch.

  35. @Louis Renault

    Didn’t Obama axe that move right after he was inaugurated?

  36. Bill H says: • Website

    No. The problem is not who wrote the software or how badly it was written. The problem is that software was being used to solve a hardware problem. The airframe design was bad. The airplane was unflyable because the center of lift was in the wrong place. They needed to redesign the physical configuration of the airplane, but tried to save money by writing some computer software instead. It could have been the best, most flawless software ever written, and the airplane would still have been a disaster waiting to happen.

    • Agree: Haruto Rat
    • Replies: @bucky
  37. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    Speaking of Boeing,

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  38. nsa says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Humble nsa has attended lots of airshows and seen them all……Blue Angels, Thunderbirds, Snowbirds, Delmar’s GeeBee, the Bud Light Micro Jet, etc etc. The Russian Knights put on the absolute best show of them all….by a wide margin. They fly the SU-30 now but used to fly the huge gorgeous SU-27. Unlike Americans, the Russkies are rough and fly directly over crowds at low altitude, even in burner turns. Just incredible. And the Russian planes are the only jets capable of the famous full Cobra maneuver, which must be seen to be believed. The Russians pioneered vectored turbine nozzles which allow 270 degree cobras and even flat spins. In comparison, Americans are still putting around in the ancient F18 and F16. The F22 is downright ugly. The new F35 is an abortion and everyone knows it….especially compared to the SU57 Russkie fifth generation fighter. Only idiots denigrate Russian aerospace and their gorgeous unique fighters……the best in the world.

  39. Escher says:

    Doesn’t look like any of the recent Boeing troubles are due to the cheap outsourced labor. Doesn’t mean it’s s good idea though.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  40. @Reg Cæsar

    May he rest, appropriately, in peace.

  41. Mr. Anon says:
    @Redneck farmer

    More payback for colonialism?

    That’ll teach those Kenyans and Indonesians to colonize India.

  42. Mr. Anon says:
    @guest

    What’s the word for what the people in charge felt?

    The people in charge fly on Learjets and Gulfstreams.

  43. Anonymous[206] • Disclaimer says:

    The president of ServiceSource got nabbed in the college admissions saga– rather droll of the L.A. Times headline to dub him a “serfing executive”
    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-college-admissions-scandal-solana-parent-20190628-story.html

  44. Mr. Blank says:

    When I think about risking my life to the meticulousness of the engineers of a foreign culture, Russians and Indians are always on the top of my list.

    Now, now — let’s not be too hard on the Russkies. They are quite capable of producing superior engineers. Most of the blame for their failures is due to dysfunctional political systems, whether it’s Czarism or communism or Putinism or what have you. Given the constraints they usually labor under, they are impressively competent.

    India is another story. Not that Indians are not smart; it’s just that every person I’ve ever talked to who has had to work with them comes away frustrated. Every single one tells me some variation of, “they’re crazy smart, but they don’t get it. They don’t get what we’re trying to do here.”

    I’m convinced that centuries from now, when some future Gibbon is writing about the decline and fall of the American empire, the role of various South Asian ethnicities in the whole debacle will be a source of much discussion and puzzlement: “What in the hell were those white people thinking, outsourcing so much critical stuff to a such an alien culture?”

    • Agree: 95Theses
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @DB Cooper
    , @SLM
  45. Lurker says:
    @Anonymous

    There was an Indian car on sale in the UK for a while in the early/mid 1990s. It was actually a 1950s British car that had been produced in India for decades. I remember seeing one or two around and I liked the idea. You were getting a new built retro classic (with some minor modern features).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindustan_Ambassador

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @YetAnotherAnon
  46. Daniel H says:
    @guest

    The culture of Merseyside, probably some of their various ethnic backgrounds (Paul is Irishy, and the rest of them I dunno but probably somethin).

    Paul’s mother was Irish Catholic, born in Liverpool. His father was Irish/Brit protestant. Paul was baptized a Catholic.

    George’s mother was Irish Catholic born in Ireland. George was baptized a Catholic.

    John’s father was Irish Catholic, born in Liverpool. John’s uncle was a defrocked Catholic priest. John was baptized in the Church of England.

    Ringo…?

  47. Lurker says:
    @PiltdownMan

    Indeed.

    After all, what do Russians know about building planes? (Obviously I’m being ironic here)

  48. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lurker

    I rode in one when I was in England a few years ago. Unfortunately they could never be sold here at the time. You could import one now under the 25 year rule but finding one that wasn’t roached would be a challenge.

  49. Anon[177] • Disclaimer says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    It’s possible that the best Indian coders were snaffled up by other tech companies who are more agile, and Boeing ended up with the barrel scrapings. I wouldn’t be surprised if the best Indian coders do a lot of networking about where the best paying jobs are in the US, and they know who pays the best wages for work-for-hire in India.

  50. @Anon

    Just let the Ayn Rand type free-market fans do this regulation-business and everything will be fine.

  51. @Achmed E. Newman

    Yep, Achmed, that’s one of the things most commenters agreed upon over at James Thompsons MAX articles: Software problems are different from engineering problems, so:

    Ehh – on James Thompsons second Boing-thread, I wrote this:

    That they now think, MCAS could be shut down almost completely (=”The Boeing ‘fix’ means literally that the MCAS system has been EVISCERATED…for all practical intents and purposes…”) might imply, that the MCAS system worked as intended and had in this hindsight no software malfunctions (that was the airplane-software experts Trevor Sumners point quoted a few times above on James Thompsn’s first MAX.thread), but rather a problem of – a wrong idea about what could reasonably be automated in an airplane – – – and what definitely not.

    Concerning your comment No. 13 too, about commenter FB:
    FB had this point clear right from the beginning of his fantastic comments – as did the very insightful commenter Erebus. (I remember FB being a bit harsh on you, unfair even, but – such is life: It’s not necessarily the polite types, which make the big points. Sigh.)

  52. Lot says:
    @PiltdownMan

    Her consort has a rockin’ sense of fashion. Where can I buy that? Would it be wrong to wear that hat in a movie theater?

    • Replies: @95Theses
    , @anonymous
  53. Marat says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Pat’s latest article at Vdare would have pleased Justin.

  54. RobUK says:

    Is this a Bloomberg article critical of using foreign labour? I am astonished.

  55. BB753 says:

    We all know what this means : we need more Indian coders! The proper response to any crisis is to increase immigration.

  56. LondonBob says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Started reading antiwar.com and Justin in the nineties with the Balkan nonsense and helped start my political awakening, big loss. RIP.

    • Replies: @Hunsdon
  57. LondonBob says:

    I believe the issue began with the merger with McDonnell Douglas, arms manufactures like to disperse manufacturing to keep as many politicians on board, Boeing historically kept everything in Seattle for quality control.

    Used to work for a US Investment Bank, all the work from India had to redone went it was sent over as the standard was so poor. The good news is the outsourcing no longer happens, instead robotics (automation) means the work is being insourced with the robots overseen by a manager in London and the Indians no longer employed. Unfortunately the issue remains of Wipro and the rest use immigration loopholes to bring over low paid incompetent Indians to work in the London office. IBs are hugely dysfunctional once you look past the front office.

  58. I once attended an AAAS lecture that was actually attended by by Margret Meader herself, who spoke briefly. That would have been in the late 1970s. The lecture itself had do do with something like the Boeing fiasco.
    It seems that tribes on the shore of New Guinie (I believe it was) back then were richer than those inland. They control the reserve currency (cowrie shells), interact with other tribes along the shoreline, and occastioinally traded with the Europeans. They had nice dwellings, made at high cost (in their terms) using materials iimported from other parts of the coastline.
    The tribes in the interior had access to the same materials,, but lacked the money to pay for them. They would be best housed by using cheaper materials. So, how did they build their houses?
    Well, same way that the people along the short built their houses, _but_ the high cost materials were used for show rather than function. High prestige won out over high function.
    Mead’s comment was that research should attempt to find humans with better ways of coping.

    Something quite similar happens in declining societies. In this cae, the richer area is “the past. That’s what’s happening to to the West. Back in the 1970s, 40 years ago, the West no longer had the money to innovate. The cities had lost their manufacturing base and diverted capital flow to support their infrastructure, which was no longer economically productive. The Apollo project was canceled and NASA became showbiz, first user cost for nuclear power beyond the Navy’s submarine rectors was cancelled, transportation infrastructure was allowed to decay and new projectss were stopped, and things sort of froze. This was accompanied by propaganda about progress being really destructive in that it made some capital obsolete, coupled with propaganda about the need to help people in cities with taxe money. In short, the US was too broke to innovate. The only area of innovation (which I was in) was compute applications, largely to population control.
    Obviously, the shutdown wasn’t complete, but it was big enough to end American Gilded Age mass dynamism. There simply wasn’t enough to continue being dynamic _and_ to support unproductive but politiically dominant cities.

    So, here it is, 2019. The saga has continued. We now don’t even have the income to support what we have, and we’re in the process of losing it. We’re importing cheap labor — what they used to call slaves – and we’re hiring barbarians to fill essential tasks because we lack the money to hire citizens. The citizens end up supported directly by government at about the same level as the vote farms in cities tht keep the political system going (or have until Trump). We’re having a classic Slave Revolt — killing the Masters in areas the revolting slaves control, taking and destroying the hated Master’s goods were possible. We’re also having barbarian revolts (loss of empire) and finding that barbarian workers can’t do the work that motivated Europeans can, in large part becasue the barbarian workers don’t see the point to Western work and so aren’t motivated. It’s sort of like training cats in Skinner boxes. Once the food comes out of the hole, the cat ignores the trainer’s task and watches the hole, waiting. It would be sort of like a European turning a Tibetan prayer wheel, which would seem much like pounding sand to the European.

    And, like the inland villagers, we’re building to the standards of the past in appearance, but not in function. We don’t have the money to keep up the old standards, so we’re pretending. Like the villagers using high cost materials for show rather than function, we live worse for the pretense.

    Time for a classic reortanization. Continuing along the path above isn’t good.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Replies: @Charon
    , @JackOH
    , @JMcG
  59. @The Wild Geese Howard

    Danny Boyle casting decision. Very very very deliberate. There are some Indians in the UK that are actually well integrated and it’s not completely implausible. Particularly in my experience those that came via Uganda. But Boyle is just rubbing our noses in it here. What’s probably more jarring is the shabby working class chic aesthetic and the insertion of the extremely middle class looking Lilly James into the mix, as if she’d be hanging around with a gormless Indian loser (but hey, she’s a ‘school teacher’). Once again Boyle does this because he can.

    It’s funny becase last night on the BBC last night we saw easily the worst main stage act in the history of Glastonbury as a semi-literate ‘grime’ ‘artist’ named Stormzy roamed around a stage swearing and grunting in a union jack flag stab vest in front of the whitest audience since Nuremburg. It was embarrassing, and extremely funny. Obligatory 5 star review from where else:

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/jun/29/stormzy-glastonbury-review-pyramid-stage

  60. @Mr. Blank

    I’ll give the Russians plenty of credit for heroic first-man-in-space type engineering. I just don’t trust their reliability in routine stuff like airliners.

  61. @Lurker

    They also make clones of the late 50s Royal Enfield motorbike.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Enfield_(India)

  62. @Achmed E. Newman

    Is it really good for a manufacturing firm to have its headquarters a thousand miles from its plants?

  63. LondonBob says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Having lived in Russia that is about right, some very smart people but a distinct lack of general Germanic efficiency.

  64. LondonBob says:
    @Cowboy Shaw

    Danny Boyle is a good example of the Irish immigrant far left in Britain, talented, but the chip on the shoulder is very obvious.

  65. Daniel H says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Aerodynamic instability is fine for testbed aircraft, maybe even for some military craft fielded in numbers, but it is a horrific idea that should never find its way into any passenger airliner.

    I will bet, that in China, and executive can still face the firing squad for approving/rubber stamping/ and going forward on this abomination that is the revamped Boeing 737. The firing squad concentrates the mind.

    • Replies: @bucky
    , @Desiderius
  66. Now that I think of it, I do not recall ever seeing a senior airline executive flying on an airliner. I have seen them at small executive airport terminals.

  67. Is the MAX ever coming back? As they sit in the airliner storage place gathering dust, will some country decide to send them back and get a refund?

  68. @nsa

    The Russians pioneered vectored turbine nozzles

    Only idiots denigrate Russian aerospace

    Agree. Their industrial espionage is top-notch.

  69. Icy Blast says:
    @nsa

    Some people insist on living in the past – even an imaginary past. It props up their self-esteem. The Russians are building marvelous aircraft and missiles. The U.S. government, apparently, can no longer develop aircraft. It will have to start buying Airbus airplanes, or rely on the Russians, as NASA already does for its supply of rocket engines.

  70. @Steve Sailer

    Boy was Rahm happy the day they announced Boeing was coming here. No one seemed to raise that question though. They must’ve been thinking it,but nobody wanted to rain on that parade.
    The Rahm age started with great optimism that Chicago would be transformed as businesses flocked here.

  71. @Desiderius

    And have their children help make us more competitive in sports,like swimming.

  72. JackOH says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Steve, our locally founded steel mill moved its headquarters to a country setting in the late 1950s. Marble, expensive glass, very high-end modernism, and very expensive. Twenty years later the mill, which had employed tens of thousands, shut down. The executives who built the new headquarters knew at the time of its construction that their days were numbered because of their inland location.

    They had been in a grimy utilitarian brick building directly across from one of their furnaces.

    • Replies: @Lugash
  73. dearieme says:

    I wish to register a complaint. Referring to coders as “engineers” is plain silly.

  74. @Steve Sailer

    I once flew from Detroit to London – seated beside me was a Ford engineer, whose job it was to fly back and forth from Detroit to overlook production routines in European plants. That is now quite a while ago (40+ yrs) – but I still remember his complaints, just how tiresome and exhausting his job was.

    (He was the prototypical Max Weber (=Franz Kafka) modern man for me – caught in an Iron Cage of Obedience).

  75. Charon says:
    @PiltdownMan

    Yeah, if you have sent something back 18 times for the exact same reason, you have a serious management fault right here at home.

    To most of us mere mortals, the third or fourth failure would represent ample notice that “you’re doing it wrong.”

  76. Sean says:

    NEW DELHI, INDIA—Months of research and development by a team of India’s top [coders] have resulted in an ambitious plan “It has been a long road, but our many nights of hard work have finally paid off,” said team leader Dr. Birendra Chattopadhyay, 2001 winner of a Shanti Swarup Bhatnagar Prize, the country’s top science award. “We couldn’t be happier with our findings: It is not only legal, but economically viable for us to leave India by December.”

    The plan, which includes complex mathematical calculations on the cost of transportation out of India, as well as detailed projections regarding residency and employment prospects in the U.S., Canada, or Europe, represents the fulfillment of a “lifelong dream” for Chattopadhyay.

  77. Charon says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    It’s not as though there weren’t enough 737 variants already flying. And, by and large, flying quite successfully. But the opportunity to squeeze a few extra pennies from the old platform was just too enticing.

  78. @The Wild Geese Howard

    And don’t peddle the BVR missile crap…there are plenty of quality studies out there that show BVR missile kills are a seriously low percentage of air combat kills.

    Check your six, buckeroo: As with so many things in life, the effective use of BVRs is a function of how well they are employed by the human element operating them, i.e. a firm grasp of the Supremecy equation and a good estimate of the target’s manouevering intentions.

    BTW, concur with @nsa on the airshow bit, except that the F-22 is a thing of beauty.

  79. Charon says:
    @Daniel H

    Ringo…?

    Ringo was the Jewish Beatle.
    I thought everyone knew that.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  80. Charon says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    You’ve got some good points in there, I think, but your writing is in desperate need of editing and proofreading.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  81. bucky says:
    @Bill H

    Well, the plane did not crash due to the aerodynamic profile.

    It crashed because the software forcibly pushed the nose down over and over again thinking that it had gone into a stall when it had not.

    Which means that aside from this rather egregious error, the software solution has worked. No plans has yet crashed due to a stall from the engine/airframe.

  82. bucky says:
    @Daniel H

    The current CEO of Boeing came up from the engineering ranks and assumed his position in 2015. The decisions around the Max occurred before him though we may see his role as a junior executive.

    Reportedly he is focused on stopping outsourcing. It would seem that Boeing has been harmed by rule of the MBA.

  83. JackOH says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    Agree with you broadly we’ve got big-picture stuff in play that links the whole mess of disparate phenomena we routinely grumble about here. Call it the atrophy of the West’s capacity for thought, feeling, and action–or whatever. Many of us have offered descriptive and explanatory material, too, and, I suppose, tried to offer courses of action.

    “Time for a classic reor[g]anization.” Easier said than done, because there seems to be an endless supply of pliant salarymen the world over who are willing, if not downright eager, to do the Boss Man’s bidding.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  84. JMcG says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    This is not quite correct. The issue that MCAS was meant to address on the 737 Max was related to what is called control force, not stability. AFAIK the max is as stable as any 737 ever built. Modern military fighters are generally inherently unstable and require computers to be flyable at all.
    I do wonder whether they have Chinese, Russians, and Indians writing code for their military projects too.

  85. SFG says:

    Mind if I go OT to answer Buzz Mohawk, who asked a really good question a few threads back?

    In other words, there is no reason for any voter to ever assume that a candidate’s stated positions at any given time are his true positions, if he even has any.

    Since this is the game that is played (and there is no reason to doubt your analysis) then it is practically guaranteed that whoever wins a nomination for high office is lying, and whichever nominee wins a general election is a complete phony.

    Why do we even bother to vote?

    Game theory question for the perfect SAT scorers out there: When you know nothing but information that has no guarantee of being true, or when there is no real data available (as with candidates who have no true positions, only ones that are stated for the benefit of voters) what is your best move?

    Is it best to make a choice, with no information, or is it best to make no choice at all?

    In the scheme of elections and your one vote out of many, is there any strategy at all?

    From the game-theory point of view (in the colloquial sense, real game theory doesn’t seem all that applicable to real life in my experience as real life is much less structured)… there are three things that affect a politician’s actions, the politician themself, their voters, and their donors.

    Politicians are people (albeit a very ambitious variety), and have their own personal preferences and foibles. It’s doubtful Bernie Sanders, for instance, has anyone pushing him on Medicare for all or free college. Similarly, the Bushes always felt guilty about race. This is part of the idea behind identity politics–if I’m black, a white guy’s not going to fight as hard for black people as a black guy even if they’re both Democrats, so I’m going to favor a black guy, all else being equal. Similarly, a (Democratic) woman is less likely to compromise on abortion rights than a man.

    Politicians have to win election and then reelection. This is why all the huge protests against the Iraq War didn’t move Bush Jr.; none of his voters (except the guys at TAC) cared, so why would he back off and look weak? Similarly, as the Democrats’ white base rises in socioeconomic status (and the old ‘Reagan Democrats’ leave), they get more into niche woke issues like transgender bathrooms and less into blue-collar issues like unionization.

    Finally, politicians need money (at least in our system). This is one of the big reasons why AIPAC is so powerful; sure they’re an effective lobbying device and they have the media on their side, but they also have lots of money to throw around. You also see it in cases like not being able to write off credit card debt in bankruptcy; a few million dollars changed hands and voila.

    So if you want to know what a politician will do, look at who s/he is, look at who’s voting for them (both in primaries and the general), and look at who they’re taking money from.

  86. Larger US corporate lawsuits and government investigations involve tens or hundreds of thousands of documents, all on viewing software that allow them to be searched. However, each one has to be read.

    There is a large Indian company, QuisLex, which does things like inventorying contracts and logging key dates for compliance for the US corporate legal market. That has forced thousands of US lawyers out of corporate and firm jobs.

    The Indians also tried to take over the discovery business, only for US litigation firms to discover they don’t read anything, and try to rely on the searches. Which are not accurate. Only takes one email from the General Counsel to the CEO explaining how screwed they are if the other side discovers facts A and B to get through the processes without getting privilege log excluded, and the company has to settle for $100 million rather than 50.

    So the US lawyers read the documents for $40 an hour and no benefits, US discovery companies get paid $100 an hour each to employ them on contracts, and we keep sliding further down the economic hole.

  87. JMcG says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    Very interesting way of looking at the ongoing disaster.

  88. @nsa

    Thanks for sharing all this experience.

    It tends to confirm what I’ve long concluded from watching YT airshow videos – the Su-27 Flanker and its later derivatives really are that damn good.

  89. @Cowboy Shaw

    There are some Indians in the UK that are actually well integrated and it’s not completely implausible. Particularly in my experience those that came via Uganda.

    Charli XCX is my favorite half-Gujarati from Uganda currently in the UK

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charli_XCX#Early_life

    Sadly, she is an enormous advocate for poz degeneracy.

  90. @Steve Sailer

    No.

    Our plant, development, and local HQ facilities are in different buildings in the same mid-sized city and even this slight separation interferes with communication and limits project oversight.

  91. @BB753

    Clearly there’s no magic dirt in the Ganges floodplain…

  92. @Anon

    It’s a bit more than networking; entire clans and other extended familial units send their sons over to get tech jobs (and other professions, like Jain diamond wholesalers from Gujarat mentioned in a recent iSteve article of which that particularly bloodthirsty NYU professor is kin to). Generally these are high-caste sorts; certainly not too many Dalits and other avarna whose families have been collecting night soil off the streets for seven hundred years are coming over on H-1Bs. But the Indian universities themselves are roundly terribly by western standards. This becomes especially apparent when you get H-1Bs schooled in India to come over and code in, say, Austin or SF. By and large they’re much lower quality labor than westerners but that’s not the point at all. They’re cheaper.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  93. @Steve Sailer

    Nope. Then, also, is it really good to hire people from completely different industries to run companies or parts thereof? I’ve written this before, but the Japs do this right. Guys who are in charge have worked on the factory floor or as engineers or technicians. The current American way is for the Board and HR ladies to excitedly hire a manager who “changed the whole marketing strategy for toilet paper and toilet paper accessories” to be the new CEO of Rocketdyne (or something, not a real example).

    Then, too, in that case, what difference does it make if the big cheeses were never in the business if they do their high-dollar, political corporate crap in Chicago? They may not give a damn if they don’t see an engineer or a beautiful green airplane for months. Shameful.

  94. @SFG

    Impressive comment. Maybe you should have formatted it, to clearly mark the (rather long) part you were quoting.

    Let me also take some of the credit, since Buzz Mohawk’s comment was in reply to one of my own comments, lol.

    Your conclusion is worth to repeat here:

    So if you want to know what a politician will do, look at who s/he is, look at who’s voting for them (both in primaries and the general), and look at who they’re taking money from.

  95. Ibound1 says:

    Every American company has a vision. It’s the same vision. The company becomes a small holding company with a few wealthy execs in the US – offshoring all work – ALL work – to low tax third world hell holes but selling the products at US prices to a middle class US at a tremendous profit. The fact that no one will have jobs to buy the products because every other company has the exact same vision is not concerning to them in the least. Because they all think – all – they are the only company to think of the strategy.

  96. @TheMediumIsTheMassage

    Yesterday is even worse than I first realized.

    It imagines a world where the Beatles never existed, and it falls to the holy brown man to reveal the gift of their music to clueless whites.

    But hey, slow-motion ethnic cleansing is all in my stale pale male mind!

  97. When I heard about the crashes and the grounded planes, the first thing I thought of was the outsourcing of their software design to Indian coders. Almost everyone we know who works for Boeing here in the Seattle area is an Indian coder who speaks with a heavy accent, none are aerospace engineers, just “software engineers” who graduated from dubious Indian diploma mills.

    The only two aerospace engineers I know who used to work for Boeing left a decade ago in disgust, they said Boeing no longer designs airplanes, it had become a coding shop, with most of the coding done by Indian outsourcing firms. This now also applies to the auto industry.

    Manufacturing is increasingly software driven, which benefits Indian outsourcing firms hugely. But India is not a country that is known for engineering know how. They have little to no infrastructure to speak of. Indians are notorious for cutting corners. They have been designing buildings and bridges that fell down and killed lots of people in India. Brand new airports in India leak like crazy during the monsoon season. Anyone who points that out is immediately attacked as a “racist” so no one dares say anything. Thanks to our employers’ greed and PCness, now these incompetent bullshit artists are designing airplanes and cars that kill people outside India.

    The American Conservative has a great article recently on the gutting of our defense industry to outsourcing thanks to Wall Street. The article was chiefly concerned with loss of manufacturing capability to China, but most of manufacturing is now software driven, and we are losing the engineering know-how and getting subpar products from India. Boeing is also a major defense supplier. We need a new law in congress that bars all defense suppliers from outsourcing their work to non-US citizens including contractors.

  98. Helo says:
    @Sparkling Wiggle

    LOL – yes, will get back to you with the needful.

  99. What I don’t get is how the CEO hasn’t yet resigned or been fired.

    After the Indonesian tragedy, he should’ve personally investigated the matter. If he had done so, he would have known that the plane was unsafe. In which case he should’ve immediately grounded the plane. If he hadn’t investigated it, then it’s a dereliction of duty, some kind of criminal negligence.

    So the second tragedy is definitely his personal criminal responsibility. He belongs behind bars.

  100. @SFG

    Oh, you tried to format it. There’s a bug here.

    Paging Ron Unz: when trying to change multiple paragraphs to italics, it only does it to the first one. It’s been the case for at least several months. A bit annoying.

    • Replies: @SFG
    , @Anonymous
  101. Anon[192] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    How is Beatles “most white” music? Weren’t they living in the Maharishi’s Ashram?

  102. Off Topic —

    Bloomberg—
    To defend against criminal fraud charges, Theranos Inc. founder Elizabeth Holmes is trying to put investigative journalism on trial.

    By Joel Rosenblatt
    June 28, 2019, 2:27 PM CDT

    Holmes contends Wall Street Journal reporter John Carreyrou had an undue influence on federal regulators who concluded her blood-testing startup’s technology was a threat to patient health and forced the company to shut its labs.

    Through pretrial information sharing with prosecutors, Holmes has unearthed Carreyrou’s early contacts with New York state regulators and various federal agencies, as well as his interactions and emails with a doctor in Arizona.

    Holmes is pushing prosecutors to turn over every such communication they’re aware of because Carreyrou “went beyond reporting the Theranos story,” her lawyers said in a court filing. He prodded sources to lodge complaints about the company with regulators, and then lobbied agencies to pursue the complaints, according to the filing.

    “The jury should be aware that an outside actor, eager to break a story, and portray the story as a work of investigative journalism, was exerting influence on the regulatory process in a way that appears to have warped the agencies’ focus on the company and possibly biased the agencies’ findings against it,” her attorneys wrote. “The agencies’ interactions with Carreyrou thus go to the heart of the government’s case.”

  103. Anonymous[153] • Disclaimer says:
    @Cowboy Shaw

    https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-48808655

    Stormzy dominated Glastonbury’s Pyramid Stage on Friday, with a thrilling, thought-provoking show that cemented his status as Britain’s best rapper.

    Three songs in, he flashed crime statistics on the video screens, while sampling a speech by Labour MP David Lammy on racial disproportionality in the criminal justice system.

    Later, the star invited a classically-trained dancer on stage to highlight how racism and privilege are present in all walks of life – even ballet, where shoes have only just became available in different skin tones.

  104. istevefan says:
    @Anon

    Right. And when that happens we will be told we need to import more coders because it’s work the natives won’t do. It sets up a cycle that leads to more of this.

  105. Anonymous[338] • Disclaimer says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    For engineers, I’d want Germans, Japs, Americans, Frenchies, Swiss, etc.

    What about English?

  106. dvorak says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    White women miscegenating with browns is the bestest thing ever

    White women agree with miscegenation in theory but not often in practice. White men, the opposite.

  107. Anonymous[338] • Disclaimer says:
    @PiltdownMan

    PiltdownSibling1 used to own a specialty finance software firm in the 1980s and 1990s. He was always on the lookout for Russian emigre programming talent to hire.

    Were the emigres from Russia Jewish?

  108. SFG says:
    @reiner Tor

    Thanks! You know, I noticed that, and went back and tried to fix it, and it worked in the pending version but, not, it seems, in the final version that gets posted to the website.

    (I thought about sticking separate italics tags on every paragraph but wasn’t sure I could pull it off in less than 5 minutes.)

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  109. It should be noted that a lot of Indian Air Force aircraft are crashing or disappearing. They make the US navy look competent.

  110. Lot says:

    America’s 8-million-dollar Chinese meth kings caught!

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/06/28/dark_web_stamps/

    • Replies: @peterike
  111. DB Cooper says:
    @Anon

    ‘Best Indian coders’ is an oxymoron. There are a lot of programming coding competitions for many years now and not one shows the Indians are even remotely good.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  112. @reiner Tor

    What I don’t get is how the CEO hasn’t yet resigned or been fired.

    I

    I was astonished to see, that most commenters over at James Thompsons three impressive articles about the Boing MAX-disaster, didn’t much care for this point. Biff and FB and EREBUS being the exceptions I remember.

    II

    Responsibility seems to simply dematerialize, so to speak, in big organizations lately. And that seems to be the case here too: A big disaster, and no organizational and/or juridical consequences.

    • Agree: Desiderius
  113. DB Cooper says:
    @Mr. Blank

    There was a time I think Indians were smart too. But reality is Indians are not smart, on average. They are good at spelling Bees. That’s about it.

  114. @Escher

    The usual ruling class incompetence fueled by lack of accountability that killed GM.

    The nonjudgmentalism ethos once again.

  115. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sparkling Wiggle

    Should have preponed the whole effort.

  116. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @trelane

    Ya, but who would fly with an Asian pilot.

  117. @Daniel H

    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

  118. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    Call the help desk in Delhi.

    Ask for Ragneesh, he does our italics.

  119. @LondonBob

    Starting with Peter the Great, they imported them. Good read here where one can see some of the results:

    Suppose that ended with the Great Patriotic War.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @Flip
  120. Scalper says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Brownish Indian executives – not idiotic free market fundamentalism and lack of corporate criminal accountability – must surely be responsible for all those piss poor strategic decisions and the resulting pile of corpses.

    But fear not, yet another snarky shitpost must be in the making to expose all that brown incompetence.

  121. 95Theses says:
    @Lot

    Ha! Sikh and you will find that that hat is about to be sent flying toward the projector screen!

  122. @SFG

    Game theory question for the perfect SAT scorers out there: When you know nothing but information that has no guarantee of being true, or when there is no real data available (as with candidates who have no true positions, only ones that are stated for the benefit of voters) what is your best move?

    1) Determine the rules off the game. If no rules are available, then attempt to disengage. Prepare for conflict if disengagement is unsuccessful.
    2) If rules are available, then determine whether game is positive sum, negative sum, or zero sum.
    3) If the game is positive sum, than play it. Note that some other games you’re playing (e.g. legal citizen) might conflict with participation in the game. If so, consider the larger game. Iterate this step as needed.
    4) If the game is negative or zero sum, attempt to disengage. Prepare for conflict if disengagement is unsuccessful.
    5) If in a conflict “game”, attempt to win.

    Or, in English maxims:
    a) Don’t walk into kill zones, don’t even approach ambushes. If in a kill zone, _immediately_ attempt to leave it.
    b) Don’t lead with your chin.
    c) Absence of body beats presence of mind.
    d) It’s crackers to slip a rozzer the dropsy in snide.

    Counterinsurgency.

  123. AnonAnon says:

    What I don’t get is how the CEO hasn’t yet resigned or been fired.

    He’s only been CEO since 2015 so this problem wasn’t his. Moreover, Muilenberg is an aerospace engineer who started with Boeing as an intern in 1985. Do you want them to put another Harvard MBA/McKinsey/General Electric guy in charge, like McNerney, the guy who green lighted the Max and whose fault this really is. Like someone commented above, the article has a whiff of sour grapes from ex-employees. I’d prefer to see a CEO with an aerospace engineering background solve the problem, rather than some new guy with a marketing degree and a steep learning curve. I’m not that concerned yet since the crashes happened in foreign countries with inferior pilots/airlines.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  124. Matra says:
    @Daniel H

    Given that Ringo has some links to the Orange Order he’s unlikely to have recent Irish Catholic connections.

  125. Bubba says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Man, Chronicles lost Aaron Wolf on Easter to a heart attack.

    I’ll renew my subscription anyway.

  126. @SFG

    separate italics tags on every paragraph

    That’s what I do normally. Mind you, the blockquote tag works on all paragraphs enclosed, and the blockquote was intended for quotes (instead of italics), so maybe it’s better to use it. (I use both when I’m quoting from an article instead of another commenter, but that’s just me.)

    Maybe it was a quick fix to the problem of someone forgetting to close the italics tag, in which case all subsequent comments get posted in italics, so Ron just made it so that at the end of each paragraph the italics (or bold) tags just get automatically invalidated.

    I remember some comment threads (not here, somewhere else) where someone forgetting to end the italics tag resulted in many all-italics comments, until I (or someone else, but in that particular case it was me) started my comment with the (/i) (not brackets, but you get the point), which fixed it.

  127. Lugash says:
    @Dieter Kief

    An investigation by Boeing would expose them to legal liability earlier. Better to play dumb and wait for the NTSB to release its findings. In the interim, insiders unload their stock.

    The big question is can Boeing repair the Max without bankrupting the company. If not we’re going to have to bail Boeing out. And probably subsidize the airline industry aircraft purchases as well… from Airbus.

    Complete agreement on point II.

  128. asdfgt67 says:
    @DB Cooper

    > Microsoft – Employs over 35,000 H-1Bs. Stock used to be $100. Today it’s lucky to be over $25. Not to mention that Vista thing.

    Microsoft stock is currently $133 and the company is worth more than $1 trillion. The CEO is Satya Nadella, who’s Indian. He fixed the company after a decade of mismanagement by Steve Ballmer. Stock price has dramatically increased since he took over. Ask current Microsoft employees.

    Could go through the rest of your list. Seems like a copypasta from long ago. Maybe some items are true but that was a glaring falsehood.

    • Replies: @MG
  129. @SFG

    look at who s/he is

    That’s the most difficult part, but often you can infer some of it. For example Trump has talked about trade and how imports should be taxed for several decades before he even became a candidate. So it’s pretty likely part of his worldview. Now his campaign views on immigration seemed to be congruent with those, but apparently his convictions are not very strong there. But many people actually voting for him believed that he’s convictions were strong, when they weren’t.

    So it’s not always easy to know what a person exactly believes deep down, but you can get a general direction when comparing, say, Kamala Harris to Tulsi Gabbard or Donald Trump.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  130. Anonymous[338] • Disclaimer says:
    @Desiderius

    No

    Why not?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  131. @Dieter Kief

    I would actually think that if a politician would be responsible, he would usually at least be forced to resign. Like the Korean capsized ferry catastrophe (and the bad response to it by the government) resulted in the collapse of the government and the prime minister resigned. (Though it took almost a year to actually replace him, he only continued in a kinda sorta caretaker position afterwards.)

    So it seems that even politicians and government officials have more responsibility than the Boeing leadership. (And probably it’d be the same with other corporations. To be honest, I wouldn’t be so sure about Airbus either, if they had a similar catastrophe…)

  132. peterike says:
    @Lot

    “America’s 8-million-dollar Chinese meth kings caught!”

    They should be executed.

  133. @Anon

    The Indian engineers wrote their code to the specs given.

    That’s precisely the problem. They write to the specs, and never question if the specs are correct or complete.

    Any programmer soon learns that the specifications, as written, are almost never a complete solution to the actual problem or task that it is supposedly addressing. When you get down into the nitty-gritty details of what the actual code needs to be to tell the computer what it actually has to do, questions come up that the specifications don’t answer. You always, always, always have to go back to the customer or user and get clarifications on those issues, or the code won’t work the way it should — even if it technically meets the specifications.

    In my 30 years of software experience, in the vast majority of cases, Indian coders will not ask those follow-up questions. I don’t know if it’s the way the hiring contracts are written, or it’s a cultural thing. I do know I’ve experienced the same lack of follow-up whether the Indian coders were present in the US, or were working in India by outsourcing.

    You may say that the fault lies in the specification writers, then. Superficially that sounds reasonable. But part of the point of separating spec writers from the code writers is to get more than one mind looking at the problem. If one of those minds is only mechanically obeying the written specs, the spec writer might as well have written the code in the first place.

    • Agree: Cortes
  134. By-tor says:
    @Louis Renault

    This allegation about an unnamed Russian firm from Boeing: the same liars at the center of the 737 Max. American Liberal Establishment-owned Yahoo of course presents the so-called anonymous Boeing staffer as the ‘source’ whose story is then presented as fact by the Boeing female ‘engineer’. Right…

  135. Western says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Chrysler had their headquarters in NYC. That’s where the Chrysler building is.

    Don’t most auto companies have plants all over the place?

    • Replies: @Unladen Swallow
  136. Someone really needs to tell poor Boeing to stop digging:

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/06/17/boeing_certification_simulation_tests/

    As the Boeing 737 Max controversy rolls on, the American planemaker has now been embroiled in a fresh row – after it was revealed it wants to shorten and replace some physical certification tests with software-powered processes.

    Specifically, Boeing is “reducing the scope and duration of certain costly physical tests used to certify the planemaker’s new aircraft,” Reuters reported over the weekend.

    I’m sure the upcoming Boeing 777X Crater will be a complete improvement on the 737 Lawn Dart….

  137. GSR says:

    As a 20+ year veteran of IT/software world, I am quite familiar with Indians and the H-1B issue.

    Indians who come to the USA on H-1b visas are usually well trained (as in crash course “bootcamps”) to learn software programming, whereas Americans tend to have more well rounded college degrees.

    Some Indians here are very smart but that vast majority as just average like Americans or any people. Small percentage very sharp; most average. Indians here are willing to work long and hard hours because they are desperate (like Mexican illegals), hungry, want to “scam” a green card someway, they bring 22 of the extended family here as well.

    The H-1Bers tend to be younger, not married, don’t own a home, or have children, thus are willing and able to work longer hours than the typical middle-class American with those responsibilities.

    I’d like to see fewer H-1Bs but alas like everything else immigration related, nothing will get done. The Powers That Be want globalism/trans-nationalism.

    Just my two cents…..

  138. @Achmed E. Newman

    They moved the headquarters to Chicago over 10 years back for tax reasons. (Washington wasn’t giving them the breaks they wanted.) They don’t build anything in Chicago as far as I know.

    I don’t believe it was directly “tax reasons”–Washington gives Boeing what Boeing needs in terms of tax terms. Though i do believe that “a shot over the bow” was part of it–letting Washington know they were mobile.

    The other piece was that after the McDonnell Douglas merger this was some sort of weird attempt to create a more “global” image and also signal to all the execs that the path “up” wasn’t just limited to Commercial Airplanes in Seattle, but should/would involve hopping around through various divisions–Commercial, Defense, Space, etc.

    But Commercial Airplanes is half the company and as Steve points out “being there” in the thick of it is a good thing. (Perhaps Muilenberg now wishes we’d have had more of his staff with ears to the ground in Seattle picking up scuttlebutt.)

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  139. Hibernian says:

    “At a meeting with a chief 787 engineer in 2008, one staffer complained about sending drawings back to a team in Russia 18 times before they understood that the smoke detectors needed to be connected to the electrical system, said Cynthia Cole, a former Boeing engineer who headed the engineers’ union from 2006 to 2010.”

    I think the key words are, “headed the engineers’ union.”

    • Replies: @Epigon
  140. @nsa

    Where would you go to see the Russian Knights in the USA?

    • Replies: @nsa
  141. Hibernian says:
    @AnotherDad

    Since the move was made after the merger, I’ve always wondered why they didn’t put the headquarters in St. Louis or its suburbs, possibly but not necessarily at or near Lambert Field where the McDonnell operations are located. Missouri is a much more reasonable state than Illinois, and St. Louis is smaller and therefore more livable than Chicago. Or put the headquarters near DC like Lockheed Martin and Northrup Grumman.

    Boeing is very low profile in Chicago because it’s office there is a skeleton HQ which employs few people.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  142. Mr. Anon says:
    @Anonymous

    Several companies in India build clones of the old slow speed Lister diesel engines:survivalists in the US love them, but the EPA has put the kibosh on importing them.

    I know a guy who has one of those. He said they make the most efficient back-up generators you can buy.

  143. Carol says:
    @Louis Renault

    Haley was Secretary of State? Was this between Tillerson and Pompeo?

    • Replies: @Louis Renault
  144. nebulafox says:

    Eh… I would not bet against Russians in STEM, Steve. The USSR did a lot of things poorly, technical education was most definitely not one of them.

    But since the liberals in all their geopolitical wisdom believe that Russia is the main strategic threat the US faces in the world today, I wouldn’t expect them to be getting anything vaguely defense related. Not that we should be using anything but Americans anyway…

    • Replies: @SFG
    , @anon
  145. How much of the 737 MAX problem is social and how much is technical?

    Yeah, yeah, wait for the NTSB findings and all of that, but the problem is not that the pressurized cabins justs bursts at the seams in flight (British Comet), that engine shakes the wing apart (Lockheed Electra), the engine comes loose from the wing (DC-10) or the vertical tail just snaps off (that happened to an Airbus out of JFK airport, this incident was buried by the news about 911 followed by the anthrax attacks and the DC sniper, so what did they figure out how to not have the vertical tail not snap off on that model Airbus apart from cautioning the pilot not to work the rudder pedals too vigorously?)

    Yeah, yeah and more yeah, 50-year-old design, the engines are too big for the landing wheels so they are placed too far forward, unstable aerodynamics (at some extreme “corner of the flight envelope) and on an on. There are just three things that are needed. One, change the software to not make such an extreme, unrecoverable nose-down tilt with the horizontal tail, two, get to the bottom of Boeing’s quality control that this little vane on the side of the nose doesn’t get stuck so often and give the pilots false, frantic warnings that it is about to stall and fall out of the sky if the nose isn’t pushed way down and three, revamp pilot training procedures so they can recover if the plane’s flight controls can go haywire with a false stall warning and the nose being pushed down by the tilt of the horizontal tail in response.

    Easy, peasy! But the MAX is this perfect storm that they cannot do number three because that would hurt the feelings of non-US pilots and would cost the airlines (and Boeing) serious coin by saying the MAX doesn’t fly exactly like the 737-NG and some specialized training apart from reading a Web page is needed.

    Item two is tied up in that something appears to be broken at Boeing that they cannot deliver tankers to the Air Force without loose pieces rattling inside the bulkheads let alone build a plane with a vane thingy that measures the direction of the wind over the nose of the plane that works the same way as your child sticking a hand out an open car window to feel the wind pressure.

    Three is something they cannot do anytime soon because Boeing cannot explain to anyone why they allowed the horizontal tail to push the nose down so very much in the first place (the subject of this thread, blaming Indian software coders, which is probably a bogus thing the press is latching on to) and the FAA cannot own up to how they let this flaw slip through the cracks, so now the MAX is subject to so much scrutiny it may never get recertified.

    I am telling you this whole fracas is all about losing face and saving face and political gotcha and finger pointing and nothing like the more serious-to-correct flaws on those earlier airplanes, corrected by male engineers with crew cuts who rolled up the sleeves on their white shirts with pencil protectors to get-it-done. It is a product of our current age that they cannot move forward with this.

    • Agree: Macumazahn
  146. Mr. Anon says:
    @Louis Renault

    Boeing made that decision before Nikki was elected governor and she only got on the board after being invited to leave her role as Secretary of State.

    She wasn’t Secretary of State; she was the Ambassador to the UN. Haley lent her weight as Governor to fighting unionization drives at Boeing in SC, so it is entirely likely that the her appointment to the Board of Boeing is payment for services rendered. Or for services to be rendered. She probably has further political ambitions, maybe even for the highest office. Boeing can always use a politically connected whore friend. Boeing is a big MIC contractor, and the awful Nikki Haley is certainly gung-ho for the forever-war.

    In any event, is anyone under the illusion that Haley knows anything about business, especially about the aerospace business? Jobs like that are the way that wealthy interests bribe politicians.

  147. anon[319] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    A fine allegorical tale about 3rd world leeching on the West.

  148. Epigon says:
    @Hibernian

    My thoughts exactly – I was curious whether someone else noticed this.

    It is the incredible how many individuals take claims from people in clear conflict of interest at face value.
    Yes, a former union head womyn tells us how stupid the Russians are, how foolish the Boeing leadership was for their continuous investment in Russia compared to brilliant engineers like herself.

    This whole article and comment section reads like Americans blaming Indians and others who were outsorced marginal and unimportant work for critical failures in vital airplane design and quality control – as if Americans are incapable of fuckups.

    Boomers are total cancer.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    , @reiner Tor
  149. nebulafox says:
    @LondonBob

    The impression I’ve always gotten of Russia is a country that is extremely difficult to manage effectively, despite the seemingly all-powerful autocratic regimes that have always run it, leading to a lot of ad hoc decision making on a local level. It also has a difficult time attracting the best and brightest to middle and lower rung state service, unlike, say, Germany or China. Is that accurate?

    • Replies: @LondonBob
  150. SFG says:
    @nebulafox

    I think Steve’s point (which I agree with) was that they have smart people who can do impressive things but aren’t good at mass-producing run-of-the-mill stuff. They can put a few cosmonauts in space but can’t make lots of high-quality planes or cars. Sputnik and the Camry are two different sorts of achievements.

    My best guess, based on a lot of the concepts discussed here over the years, is that a low-trust society and high corruption levels interfere with the sort of mass production that you need to make reliable machinery en masse. But I’d welcome comments from anyone more familiar with Russian culture.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @Lugash
  151. OFWHAP says:
    @Anon

    This is hardly a new issue. Back in the late ’90s-early ’00s the message was, “Don’t bother with computer science/learning to code because your job will be outsourced to India!” Now our betters complain that Americans do not know how to code, therefore we MUST hire Asians to do the work that Americans are too stupid and lazy to do.

  152. nebulafox says:
    @Desiderius

    I’ve always been fascinated in the parallels between the German diaspora across E. Europe and the Chinese diaspora across SEA. You used to see Germans all over urban centers just like you still see Chinatowns in SEA-they feautre in Dostoevsky’s Petersburg (who would satirize their assimilation issues) prominently. They even got exacerbated by similar disasterous religious wars.

    A lot of Germans left earlier due to their deep connections with the Tsarist regime or just having bourgeois status in the big urban centers. That meant the Communists had to lean heavy on the other brilliant ethnic minority, and while it wouldn’t be nearly wholly exterminated like Poland or Hungary, Soviet Jewry took a massive beating at the hands of the Einsatzgruppen. General population loss and dysgenics (way too many single young women and way too much intelligentsia killing) from the first half of the 20th Century had as much to do with the long term structural issues that led to the downfall of the Soviet Union as anything. It says a lot that they managed to keep it going as long as they did.

    • Replies: @anon
  153. nebulafox says:
    @SFG

    Fair enough.

    But China-which I do have experience with-is anything but a high trust society without corruption. They do just fine for the most part-not Japan/Germany/Singapore level of 100 percent reliability, but good enough to embark on mass civil projects from nuclear plants to high speed rail, which is more than you can say than the “Diversity is our strength” USA these days. Is it a difference of degree, or something deeper? I do get the sense that corruption is less obstructive to getting things done in China.

  154. @Dieter Kief

    ‘…Responsibility seems to simply dematerialize, so to speak, in big organizations lately…’

    It’s always been that way — and the biggest organization of all is government, and it’s worst there.

    It always irritated me. I ran my own business, and if something went wrong, the responsible party was obvious.

    Me. I had to deal with it.

    Fine…but then I go to Verizon, or whatever, which is billing me twice for the same phone line or some such b.s., and…

    Nobody’s responsible! Not the coked-out salesman that put in the order wrong, not billing that can’t fix it, not customer relations that cannot respond to repeated letters, not the executives who preside over it, and certainly not the shareholders who profit from it all.

    No one. It’s like some sort of inverse miracle of the loaves and the fishes. Responsibility is diffused until it finally just…evaporates. No one’s to blame.

    Which would be okay too — except that someone still gets screwed. To wit, me.

    • Agree: SimpleSong
  155. anon[338] • Disclaimer says:
    @nebulafox

    Eh… I would not bet against Russians in STEM, Steve. The USSR did a lot of things poorly, technical education was most definitely not one of them.

    Who deserves the credit, Russians or Jews?

    • Replies: @nebulafox
  156. I don’t know if I’d bang on Russian aerodynamics. Wasn’t it Sikorsky who insisted the lead engineer should be the first test pilot to “weed out bad engineers”?

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
  157. @Hibernian

    I thought A.D. was writing about the MD-Boeing merger, not the merger much longer ago of McDonnell and Douglas. Douglas was based since forever in Long Beach, California.

    I guess at least Boeing has operations in St. Louis, the military side of things, as you say, but maybe the place is too “provincial” for the big wigs.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @MBlanc46
  158. anon[338] • Disclaimer says:
    @nebulafox

    Soviet Jewry took a massive beating at the hands of the Einsatzgruppen.

    How many Soviet Jews were killed by the Einsatzgruppen?

  159. Nick Diaz says:

    @Steve Sailer

    “When I think about risking my life to the meticulousness of the engineers of a foreign culture, Russians and Indians are alway on the top of my list. You might prefer Swedes and Japanese, but what do you know?”

    And yet, those Russians beat America at putting a man in Space despite the huge handicaps of recovering from massive infra-structure damage from WWII – while America emerged from the conflict unscathed -, and getting the B-listers of the German rocket scientists, while America got the cream of the crop. Not to mention that the Soviet/Russian economy was about 5 X smaller than the American economy.

    As for Indians, you use products made by Indian engineers every day. Most software products made in Sillicon Valley were made with the paritcipation of Indian engineers to some degree or another. And India has been contributing components to both Airbus and Boeing since the 1970’s. So you should never take a plane trip again, since it is almost literally impossible to find an airplane that is 100% free of Indian-made components. Airbus, Boeing, Bombardier and Embraer, the four biggest airplane manufacturers, all use Indian-made components in their planes, and have been doing so for decades.

    Steve Sailer, you are a fool

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  160. MG says:

    80% of Indians in Silicon Valley are second-rate engineers and/or coders. Yet Trump wants to add more and for some reason Senator Cotton is pushing for an increase in H-1B visas. Why is Trump is aiding the very tech companies that want him gone and giving his voters the middle finger on immigration?

  161. I remember at the time that Boeing felt they were getting squeezed at the big plant up in Everett. It’s, as you imply, high-power politics. I guess you don’t need many people in Chicago, as long as that’s where you officially make money (though not airplanes).

    BTW, for you or Steve, or anyone reading, I highly recommend a book called Wide Body by Clive Irving. It starts off at the time of the design of the B-47 swept-wing bomber, than goes on to the 707, then the 747. It’s all about how Boeing company operated, and it’s all pretty damn impressive.

    ***********
    Hey, Ron Unz, I cannot put links in (wanted to link to the book on amazon)! This started yesterday. What are you up to?
    ***********

  162. @Cowboy Shaw

    Allowing majority hostile–as LondonBob says with “a chip on their shoulder”–people into your nation is just a *really* bad idea.

    Irish in America have–mostly–pretty readily integrated–though some damage was defintely done. Only Catholicism was any sort of barrier, there is no general racial-cultural barrier to merging into the generic white American population (producing people like me).

    Don’t know what the situation is with the Irish in the UK. In the UK case this really some sort of imperial blowback. English shouldn’t have been ruling Ireland and Irish shouldn’t have been allowed into England. So it’s a little more “loaded”. Boyle definitely seems to have “issues”.

    Allowing majority-hostiles into the US–for no rhyme or reason–much less allowing them access to the commanding heights–insanity.

    • Replies: @dearieme
  163. nebulafox says:
    @MG

    I don’t know. Why are we still wasting billions in Afghanistan? Why was the only concrete action taken by the administration in it’s first year a massive tax cut for billionaires? Why has their been no serious proposal to revive Glass-Steagall or treat Google and Facebook and Amazon like the Gilded Age style trusts they are? Why has E-Verify not been made mandatory while the GOP attempts to mess up people’s healthcare even further?

    It might just be that Trump is a lazy putz who follows the path of least resistance: meaning we get Bushism with Donaldian characteristics.

    • Replies: @istevefan
  164. dearieme says:
    @AnotherDad

    Irish shouldn’t have been allowed into England

    Ireland was part of the United Kingdom in the 19th century. Keeping the Irish out of England would have been like keeping Texans out of California.

    • Replies: @SimpleSong
  165. @The Wild Geese Howard

    This is the fundamental problem with the Boeing 737 Max. The design is aerodynamically unstable – i.e. it is impossible for a human pilot to fly without constant correction by high-speed computers.

    It’s “aerodynamically unstable” only off on the far margin of nose up attitude, which it’s not clear any MAX pilot has yet even gotten into.

    But yeah, not fixing the height issue with a landing gear rework and instead hanging the engines awkwardly, creating non-stability in the extreme nose up case, then kludging that with MACS … stupid shit.

  166. istevefan says:
    @nebulafox

    Why has E-Verify not been made mandatory …

    One of the arguments I’ve heard against mandatory E-Verify is that businesses should not be turned into immigration agents. Apparently performing E-Verify wastes time and makes our businesses non-paid members of ICE or something.

    As a small businessman I had to laugh at that one. Because I have to withhold federal income taxes and fill out tax reports showing how much I’ve withheld from each person’s wages. So aren’t I in effect a non-paid member of the IRS? Yet you don’t hear congressmen complaining about it.

    If business can function as the tax man and collect taxes, then they can help out with immigration by doing E-Verify.

  167. istevefan says:

    I hope this means we will see no more new versions of the 737. The original, then the classic, then the next generation and now the max. Boeing should have already come out with a new design.

    Boeing is lucky that the airline business is what it is so that customers can’t just up and leave overnight. They will still sell 737 maxes when this is sorted out because airlines have little choice. Airbus can’t make enough A320s to meet all the demand, so airlines will still have to buy 737s for the foreseeable future.

    Of course it might create an opening for an existing smaller guy to ratchet up to larger jets. We see some of this happening with Embraer and Bombardier. I don’t know the exact overlap between the various Max versions and the largest jets from Embraer and Bombardier. But this might provide an opening for those two firms to take a bite out of Boeing’s market share.

    I used to love Boeing as a kid. I have grown to dislike them intensely. From robbing the taxpayers over their “virtual wall” and the lease deal they offered for 767 tankers, to building the Asian aerospace industry via outsourcing of the 787, these guys have left me cold. Add to that they cancelled the most gorgeous passenger jet ever made (757) and kept extending the 737. Finally, their entry in the JSF competition was embarrassing. I know it was probably a McD design, but it was embarrassing nonetheless.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
  168. istevefan says:

    If one of my comments posts multiple times, I apologize. Something weird was going on with the submit process.

  169. @The Wild Geese Howard

    Danny Boyle and his issues aside, it seems that Britain’s “cultural elite” has gone over-the-top cuck.

    Pushing black-on-white miscegenation seems to be a core principle of the BBC. Now days they don’t even limit it to the here and now–black anachronism is a thing. AnotherMom likes her murder mysteries and we watch some of the Brit stuff. Father Brown had soulful black romantic/sexual partners for young white girls in back to back episodes we saw this past week. This is 50s Britain in some village off in the Cotswolds. With the characters unable to raise any coherent objection, but rather it pitched as entirely normal, reasonable, good, appropriate–“love” justifies all. Just absolute nonsense.

    The writers and the functionairies in the BBC clearly have a genocidal “death to white Britain” agenda.

  170. @Daniel H

    Lapsed Catholics are the worst.

    Terrible agents of cultural subversion.

    Almost as bad as you know who, and usually working right with them.

  171. MG says:
    @asdfgt67

    Nadella is a mediocrity. Any blob would have taken Microsoft where it is today. It is just that Ballmer was a big dick.

    • Replies: @Big Dick Bandit
  172. jim jones says:

    Map of World corruption, Russia does not look good:

  173. @AnotherDad

    But yeah, not fixing the height issue with a landing gear rework and instead hanging the engines awkwardly, creating non-stability in the extreme nose up case, then kludging that with MACS … stupid shit.

    They actually did rework the landing gear on the MAX 8…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX#Structural_and_other_changes

    …and then they reworked the landing gear again with a telescoping strut system for the MAX 10 (last paragraph in following link):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_MAX#737_MAX_10

  174. @LondonBob

    The Irish leftist is a person with post-colonial mindset, dedicated to sticking it to the man (England) by being even more radical, leftist, and suicidal than the former colonizer. Forsaking the once highly-traditional Catholic faith just adds to the poisonous psychology. Lapsed Catholics almost always turn into revolutionaries.

    • Replies: @S. Anonyia
  175. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Not ususally no. Scots maybe.

  176. @dvorak

    White women agree with miscegenation in theory but not often in practice.

    Where the hell do you live?

  177. MG says:

    Mark my words – Indians will soon claim they invented Bitcoin.

  178. @AnotherDad

    It’s “aerodynamically unstable” only off on the far margin of nose up attitude, which it’s not clear any MAX pilot has yet even gotten into.

    Disagree:

    https://airlinerwatch.com/boeing-737-max-8-design-or-software-problem/

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/before-fatal-lion-air-crash-boeings-new-jet-hit-problem-in-tests

  179. @Hippopotamusdrome

    You sound like the typical Boomer who’s still hell-bent on hating the Russians

    The Soviet Yak-141 V/STOL fighter was predated by their earlier Yak-36 fighter. Those commies created it themselves. Admit it.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Lurker
  180. @nsa

    They have their share of brave SOBs, like Sergey Eremenko, who refused to eject from his stricken plane, instead holding onto it and steering it away from residential areas: https://www.rt.com/news/345945-fighter-jet-crash-moscow/

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  181. @Cowboy Shaw

    There are some Indians in the UK that are actually well integrated and it’s not completely implausible.

    You’re missing the point. If the Indian guy was writing and singing pop music or his own music no one would care. But he’s singing Beatles music. If a white guy was cast, he’d be roundly panned for lack of originality, shameless copycat, poor imitation, ruining the image of the Beatles etc., with a brown or black guy, no one dares say anything or he’s a “racist”.

    Personally I don’t really care, I hate the Beatles. I think they’re way overrated and their music is hideous anyway, so I really don’t care if anyone wants to imitate them. Same goes for Bruce Springsteen. It’s hideous imitating hideous. I’m into classical music myself. Lots of East Asians excel at classical music, no one seems to have any problem with the cultural appropriation.

  182. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Cowboy Shaw

    I can think of a couple of other reasons why Danny Boyle would cast an Indian as the lead. For starters (since the trailer says “introducing”), this guy is a noob, and so was probably much cheaper to hire than a British leading man. Also, there are 1.3 billion people in India, and having an Indian lead might generate more ticket sales there.

  183. nebulafox says:
    @anon

    Ever seen a Topcoders competition or a theoretical physics seminar?

    Also worth mentioning that assimilation and intermarriage really took off in the latter day USSR due to a mix of regime pressure, urbanization, and the Nazis damaging what was left of Jewish Pale life beyond repair. The effects are easily seen in the fact that Israel is the most Russophonic country outside of the former Soviet Union. Brin and Perelman have Sergei and Grigori as their first names, not Meir or Samuel.

  184. Lugash says:
    @SFG

    I think Steve’s point (which I agree with) was that they have smart people who can do impressive things but aren’t good at mass-producing run-of-the-mill stuff. They can put a few cosmonauts in space but can’t make lots of high-quality planes or cars. Sputnik and the Camry are two different sorts of achievements.

    Soyuz and the Space Shuttle are two different sort of achievements as well. One’s still flying as the most reliable launch platform ever, the other one is a cancelled death trap.

  185. Vinay says:

    “When I think about risking my life to the meticulousness of the engineers of a foreign culture, Russians and Indians are alway on the top of my list. You might prefer Swedes and Japanese, but what do you know?”

    Do you really know a single person with any experience in tech who’ll be swayed by this argument?

    • Replies: @MG
  186. @Steve Sailer

    Most of their air crashes were caused by drunk pilots. In cases of engineering malfunction, they were caused by drunk service workers mistaking vodka for fuel.

    Although, they did give the world the Lada.

  187. @The Wild Geese Howard

    There is literally nothing wrong with it at all. Looking too much into it. Plus , the Beatles were deep on Eastern philosophy and all the meditation, Dharmas and all that.

    • Replies: @TWS
  188. MG says:

    Besides technical know how, a crucial component of establishing a company like Boeing is the formulation and implementation of “process.” And “process” is something the Americans are masters of. White Americans, to be sure. You can have all the Johnny von Neumanns of the world on your technical team, but if you don’t have the process chain nailed, you got nothin’. This is why India is a mess. No process discipline. Unfortunately, process in America is fraying with all the immivasion.

  189. @Anon

    Agreed lol. Inconsistency as well, weren’t they culturally appropriating Eastern philosophy and other Eastern related stuff back in the day? They were.

  190. @Tired of Not Winning

    a white guy was cast, he’d be roundly panned for lack of originality, shameless copycat, poor imitation, ruining the image of the Beatles etc., with a brown or black guy

    No, nobody would say that lol

    • Troll: MBlanc46
  191. @Steve Sailer

    That may depend on the product. Boeing made a stupid headquarters move because making jets is an engineering art for which it is best to have the leaders close. I remember reading how they were changing their paradigm then to move away from that idea of something special to just another MBA applicable widget business.

    Contrast that to my father, who was headquartered in Denver but responsible for six or seven plants across America. He made industrial products, pipe, something almost infinitely simpler than airliners. It made sense to produce it near the points of sale and the regions of construction rather than shipping it all over the continent from one monster factory. HQ therefore had to be away from at least all but one plant.

    Jets ship themselves, so there is no reason to spread their manufacture and associated management all over the place. It can all be done in one place, and apparently should.

    One commonality between both businesses, however, is the way they moved away from engineering leadership to business/financial/legal. The mentality of the executives changed. I would posit that this is in fact one of the ways our whole world has changed.

  192. @bucky

    Reportedly he is focused on stopping outsourcing. It would seem that Boeing has been harmed by rule of the MBA.

    The 737 Max was publicly announced in August, 2011, and conducted its first test flight in January, 2016, under the reign of former Chairman and CEO James McNerney, Yale libart major and Harvard MBA.

    Dennis Muilenberg took over as CEO in July 2015, and assumed Chairmanship from McNerney in March 2016. He received a B.A. in aerospace engineering from Iowa State and Master’s in aeronautics from University of Washington.

    McNerney was largely responsible for all the outsourcing. He was Chairman and CEO at Boeing from 2005 to 2016. Prior to that there wasn’t much outsourcing at all at Boeing. According to Wikipedia, he took over “cost control” at Boeing. It was also his decision to upgrade the 737 to 737 Max instead of developing a new plane. That’s when they lost a lot of real aerospace engineers who left in disgust and were replaced by spaghetti coders from India.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  193. Victor says:

    So what if important work was outsourced to cheap labor? Boeing executives aren’t in the business of making safe, reliable airplanes, they’re in the business of maximizing shareholder value!

  194. MG says:
    @Vinay

    As a techie myself in a hard tech field (i.e. not writing chickenshit software), I would be extremely wary about entering an aircraft knowing it was made by Indian technology or designed by Indians.

  195. Mr. Anon says:
    @Epigon

    – as if Americans are incapable of fuckups.

    Incapable? No. Less likely prone to them? I’d say probably yes. Are you implying otherwise? So, tell us, why does America (prior to its present decline) look like America, and India look like India, other than due to the relative abilities of their citizenry?

    Boomers are total cancer.

    Boomers? Your casual anti-union views sound more typical of boomer-cons.

    What’s wrong with people looking out for their own kind?

    • Replies: @Nick Diaz
  196. @Spaulding Smails

    … entire clans and other extended familial units send their sons over to get tech jobs …. Generally these are high-caste sorts;

    I fly from Europe into DFW several times a year, and there are always twenty or more wheelchairs pushed by South Asians waiting to greet what seems like an entire Indian village on the flight. On one flight, all of the pushers made it a point to bow his or her head to one of the old turbanned gents as he was being wheeled away. The old folks are all being brought over by the sons you reference, many for relatively good US healthcare.

    I always chuckle when I see The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel and its reality-TV version on UK telly depicting Brits visiting or moving to affordable India, in many cases for the cheaper but available healthcare, while the Indians go to America to get good healthcare, at whose expense god only knows.

  197. Lugash says:
    @JackOH

    Steve, our locally founded steel mill moved its headquarters to a country setting in the late 1950s. Marble, expensive glass, very high-end modernism, and very expensive. Twenty years later the mill, which had employed tens of thousands, shut down. The executives who built the new headquarters knew at the time of its construction that their days were numbered because of their inland location.

    They had been in a grimy utilitarian brick building directly across from one of their furnaces.

    There’s a business(Silicon Valley?) pundit who says that as soon as the company splurges on a headquarters they’ll be gone in 20 years.

    I think the telecom revolution made spinning off operations seem like a good idea for a while. Move the back office to Texas or Arizona and use fax/VOIP/email/video conferencing to make up the lack of face to face communication.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  198. @reiner Tor

    Firing the current CEO would be misplaced blame. Dennis Muilenberg is an aerospace engineer who took over as Chairman in March, 2016, after the first flight of 737 Max.

    The 737 Max is entirely the brainchild of former CEO James McNerney, Yale libart undergrad and Harvard MBA, who worked in places like Proctor & Gamble, GE and 3M before coming to Boeing in 2005 to oversee “cost control”. It was McNerney who started all the outsourcing at Boeing and made the decision to “upgrade” the 737 to 737 Max instead of a complete redesign as many of the company’s engineers wanted him to.

    Muilenberg worked his whole life at Boeing in various positions of engineering and management, starting as an aerospace engineering intern in 1985. He worked in the defense wing of Boeing almost his entire career. From 2009 to 2015 he was the CEO of Boeing’s Integrated Defense System. 6 months after he became CEO, 737 Max had its first test flight. He took over an engineering company from an MBA fraud who ran it to the ground to please Wall Street.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  199. Anonymous[338] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lugash

    There’s a business(Silicon Valley?) pundit who says that as soon as the company splurges on a headquarters they’ll be gone in 20 years.

    What are the implications for Amazon?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @Buzz Mohawk
  200. @istevefan

    Add to that they cancelled the most gorgeous passenger jet ever made (757) and kept extending the 737.

    Geez, this silly 757 fetish again.

    Business 101–you don’t keep building a plane which customers do not want, just because some guy on the internet likes the way it looks.

    I’ll say it again, the historical source of Boeing’s woes now is the poor decision making in their late 70s–early 80s program–the 757 and 767:

    The 757 requires two 40,000 lb thrust engines–still 25% more powerful than what’s on the largest A321. There’s a market niche there in the 200-270 passenger zone. But being in a single aisle with 200+ people is one of the least attractive flying experiences. (I’ve been in row 40 of one of those 757s waiting … and waiting … and waiting … for all the morons to tediously gather their belongs–after exiting reaches their row!) Airbus is pushing into the bottom end of that space (200-220) with the A321neo. And doing it with a much lighter aircraft with engines that have 75% of the 757’s thrust.

    The 767, while a much more successful program–they are still building freighter versions–added a whopping … one seat! across, while adding three feet of cross-section, cylindrically. It’s also dead as a passenger aircraft.

    In contrast, their more recent brand new aircraft efforts:
    — 777 — a huge success; the follow on 777X will be the cheapest seat-mile cost for commercial air travel ever and a giant earner for Boeing
    — 787 — birthing issues, but Boeing broke through on composites and has a clear lead on understanding composite technology, and it’s the most pleasant aircraft to fly on. (AnotherMom just booked her flight to Singapore on ANA to fly on a 787 again as the lower altitude pressurization is much more pleasant on these long flights.)

    But it’s the failure to build anything of long run value between the game-changing 747 in ’68, until the 777 in 1995 that is the problem.

    If instead of the 757 they’d built something A32o like–maybe even starting with the A321 length but capable of being shrunk down, then this MAX debacle would never have happened.

    As it is they are working on possibilities for their New Midsized Airplane:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_New_Midsize_Airplane

    And after that will have to fix their creaking single-aisle mess.

    In other words Boeing is still cleaning up the misfire of the 757.

    • Replies: @istevefan
  201. @Charon

    your writing is in desperate need of editing and proofreading.

    Right you are. Sorry, I usually do better. I’ll copy and paste into Word next time. The proofing tools there catch most of my mistakes.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Replies: @Macumazahn
  202. @Jack Hanson

    The Romans had the habit of having their architects stand under the arch while the scaffolding was removed,
    Now that’s how you get your aqueducts to last a millennia or so.

  203. @Western

    I think they moved back to Motown in the late 1950’s. Technically Chrysler Inc. never owned the building anyway, it was personally owned by Walter Chrysler and then his heirs after his death who sold it around the same time. Chrysler largely built it with his personal fortune.

  204. @Steve Sailer

    PS: I’m not knocking MBAs in my other reply. (Whether I should or not, I’m not sure.) I should have just said “widget business.” Boeing leadership was moving toward a widget paradigm when they moved HQ away from the place where the magic happens. I distinctly remember reading them saying that.

    Dad made widgets, and there is nothing wrong with that, but jet airliners are not widgets.

    • Agree: Desiderius
  205. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    It’s really bad form for an officer and a gentleman to let his aircraft plunge into a school or residential area while he lives to tell about it; less shameful to be a heroic SOB and stick with it. Besides, a ride up the rails is not a very pleasant experience and is not guaranteed to do you no harm, especially if you are already outside the envelope.

  206. @Anonymous

    It’s one of Parkinson’s Laws of business: no organization build a perfect headquarters building for its needs until it’s in decline.

    Apple recently opened its $5 billion HQ building in Cupertino.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @JackOH
  207. @JackOH

    “Time for a classic reor[g]anization.” Easier said than done,

    There’s an old joke, sanitized here, about a person with a disease that is localized to some named part of his extremities. Every physician he consults suggests amputation. Finally, he goes to a physician with extensive experience in that disease in a foreign country where it is common. The experienced physician says that amputation is not necessary, much to the relief of the patient. The physician then adds: “Amputation is a complete waste of time. Wait two or three weeks and they will fall off on their own.”
    That’s how Western reorganizations have happened in the past. Everything is tried to keep things together, it still falls apart and whatever re-forms is called the result of the reorganization.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  208. @Anon

    “Sergeant Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band”—the entire LP—is about as white as it gets. That was thanks to producer Sir George Martin, who had a massive impact on the legacy sound of the Beatles. That Maharishi dude had no influence on their music.

    • Replies: @Hark hark the snark
  209. Anonymous[344] • Disclaimer says:
    @Cowboy Shaw

    There are some Indians in the UK that are actually well integrated and it’s not completely implausible. Particularly in my experience those that came via Uganda.

    I’ve noticed throughout my life that the Indian-descended westerners who were best-integrated(and most likeable on a personal level) have almost invariably been the ones whose ancestors spent decades or more as minorities outside of India in some British colony like East or South Africa, Guyana, or Trinidad. In other words, they didn’t come directly from India.

    Has anyone else noticed this or is it just me?

    The other weird thing is that the Indians who come direct from India treat such people with utter contempt.

  210. @Tired of Not Winning

    Muilenburg was already CEO at the time of the first crash. But I agree that he inherited the situation and might not have been properly informed about it. So I don’t blame him for the first crash. The agree that for the first crash, someone else should be put behind bars.

    However, the second crash is entirely his fault. After the first crash, he has or should have personally gone to the bottom of it. He has or should have found out that the plane was unsafe. And once he found out that the plane was unsafe, he should’ve grounded the plane. In retrospect, it would’ve been better for the bottom line, too.

    Of course, failing to find out that it was unsafe already after the first crash could only mean that he was criminally negligent. Precisely because he is an engineer, he must have understood it. Unless he was criminally negligent (i.e. didn’t even look into it). Now knowingly allowing a faulty and unsafe plane to fly after the first crash was obviously a crime and he belongs behind bars for it. I understand that he was in a difficult position, but he receives a hefty salary precisely because his job includes making tough decisions in tough situations.

    Moreover, this guy kept arguing that the plane was safe even after the second crash. That’s a serious crime.

    I understand that he’s not responsible for the first crash, nor for the screwed up development of the plane, but he should be held responsible for the second crash.

  211. J.Ross says:

    The code wallahs didn’t hire themselves. From what I remember of the last discussion of this, it can’t be the fault of the software people, but even granting that, it would still be the full responsibility of the airhead penny-savers who freely chose to outsource.

  212. @Anonymous

    Amazon should have kept its plans for Queens, because it is such an imperfect place for a headquarters (or pretty much anything else). That would have protected them from the Parkinson law Steve mentions. Their future success would thus have been guaranteed.

  213. Flip says:
    @Desiderius

    Their rulers too as the Romanovs were mostly German by the end.

    • Replies: @E e
  214. Lurker says:
    @LondonBob

    But the Beatles themselves were of largely Irish origins and one never really detected this chippy vibe from them. Though maybe from John Lennon a bit?

    So Boyle in trashing their identity is trashing Irish immigrant success. That undermines his own group. Which makes me wonder if his wokeness has metastasized well past the mere anti-Brit stage.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  215. Anonymous[338] • Disclaimer says:
    @Tired of Not Winning

    That’s when they lost a lot of real aerospace engineers who left in disgust and were replaced by spaghetti coders from India.

    What were they disgusted about?

  216. Anonymous[355] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel H

    The Beatles are as Irish as U2 are British.

    • Replies: @Lurker
    , @Anonymous
  217. @nsa

    I think American fighter jets are okay. Definitely not worse than the Russians, though I agree that the Su-27 family and the Su-57 are both beautiful and perhaps look better than their American equivalents. But I don’t think the American planes are all ugly. The F-16 and F-15 look very good, just slightly worse than the Flanker family, while the F-22 looks worse than the Su-57, but it’s still beautiful. And of course the F-22 is a real plane, while the Su-57 is still just barely out of the prototype phase, if at all. (Its engine is not yet ready for serial production, so it’s currently equipped with a stopgap engine.)

    The F-35 is ugly, but it’s still probably a good plane. Though we don’t yet know how they would perform against each other. And a lot of their performance would depend on other factors, like the presence – or not – of AWACS or air defense etc.

  218. @Achmed E. Newman

    The real confusion in this Bloomberg article, in Boeing itself, and in the minds of lots of people writing web posts and comment, is between software work and engineering. …

    When the software people are treated as if they are engineers, management must consider that the software people don’t think the same way.

    Blame American obsession with titles, and US-led credentialism and title-inflation.

    A coder is no longer a programmer; he’s a “software engineer” (or, god stab my fucking vitals, a software architect).

    And if it’s a coder who ever writes code that adds together numbers taken from a database, it’s a data scientist. (and now, there is a supposed distinction between data scientists, data analysts, and data engineers… I shit you not).

    As my old whine used to go:

    Kid, credentials are like preferment: anyone who needs it doesn’t deserve it, and anyone who deserves it doesn’t need it. Talented coders self-refer as coders. And while we’re at it:

    * your 2000×12 SQL database is not “big data”;
    * your poorly-executed OLS is not ‘machine learning’;
    * your poorly-executed PCA is not ‘deep learning’;
    * putting a Google Map on a webpage is not ‘GIS’ (and changing the background to satellite is not ‘remote sensing’);
    * your dilettante understanding of PHP, CSS, HTML abs MySQL does not entitle you to call yourself “full stack”,,,, and

    you are not a fucking ‘engineer’.

    Also – not for nothin’, but since the late 80s I’ve been pounding the desk on the long-tailed nature of the risk of outsourcing of code… on the basis that there is weak incentive to properly test and document the code because in general firms who think of their code maintenance as ‘cost’ do not engage external coders on a repeat basis.

    These days that risk is about five orders of magnitude worse, because corporate back-ends are an absolutely key vulnerability, and DBA and sysadmin roles are also viewed as cost (and are poorly understood by ‘IT’ bits of management… all the way to CTO in non-tech-specific firms).

    Bad code and under-resourced back-end in firms with web-facing infrastructure… that’s why everyone’s data is so easy to obtain. It’s bad enough in large non-tech companies, but in small and medium enterprises it’s absolutely ubiquitous.

    Tech companies don’t get off the hook either: Twitter was writing user passwords to a singl e plaintext file in a web-facing directory for five years, and nobody responsible for the file system noticed. (And nobody in the rollout team noticed that production included a function that stored the text as part of tests of a bespoke hashing function).

  219. Anonymous[338] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    It’s one of Parkinson’s Laws of business: no organization build a perfect headquarters building for its needs until it’s in decline.

    Is this not a tautology masquerading as a law? A growing company can never have a perfect headquarters–the headquarters would be either too small for needed expansion or too large, due to excess capacity to provide for expansion. So of course imperfect.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  220. Perspective is important.

    For all the shoddiness that Boeing’s managers and engineers gave us with this 737 MAX kludge …

    the policies imposed upon Americans by our Ivy League BA degreed, “nation of immigrants”, “my grandmother came to this country …”, “immigration restriction makes me physically sick …”, name calling–“racist!” “nativist!” “xenophobe!” “Nazi!”–ruling “elite”

    is the demographic equivalent of crashing 50 737s full of white Americans every single day

    • Replies: @MBlanc46
  221. Anonymous[355] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonAnon

    The only problem with this plane is its name. It’s not a 737 but a completely different beast. Boeing should have called it something else. All these crashes are due to veteran 737 pilots thinking its the same plane and not bothering to read the new manual.

  222. Daniel H says:
    @MG

    80% of Indians in Silicon Valley are second-rate engineers and/or coders. Yet Trump wants to add more and for some reason Senator Cotton is pushing for an increase in H-1B visas.

    And this is why I have walked away from the Republican party and Donald Trump. They will never change. The Republicans will no longer sucker me with their scam “Hey, we’re bad, but not as bad as the Democrats, so vote for us…” Nope. Let the Democrats win. In fact with insane Democrats at the helm there is the real possibility that the country will become so dysfunctional in such a short order that a governmental/societal collapse will occur. From there we can pick up the still usable pieces for a new order.

    Say no to Cucks.

    • Replies: @Peripatetic Commenter
  223. @Anonymous

    “I’ve noticed throughout my life that the Indian-descended westerners who were best-integrated(and most likeable on a personal level) have almost invariably been the ones whose ancestors spent decades or more as minorities outside of India in some British colony like East or South Africa, Guyana, or Trinidad. In other words, they didn’t come directly from India.”

    Freddie Mercury was an example of this. He grew up in Zanzibar where his dad had a job under the British Empire.

    • Replies: @Cortes
    , @anon
  224. 95Theses says:
    @Tired of Not Winning

    Hear, hear! for Classical music. I’ve always thought it a tragedy that Americans (and Westerners, generally) who have ready access to an almost inexhaustible store of the greatest music mankind has ever created, and yet so few avail themselves of it. Such a pity. It is to weep.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @MG
  225. TWS says:
    @BengaliCanadianDude

    Do we really need an Indian tiny duck?

  226. Anonymous[355] • Disclaimer says:
    @Cowboy Shaw

    Right. I see Boyle was the guy responsible for that bizarre London Olympics opening ceremony in 2012.

  227. @Epigon

    I also noticed that it was a she, and she was a union leader.

  228. @Nick Diaz

    And yet, those Russians beat America at putting a man in Space despite the huge handicaps…

    The guys on the American side were ready, willing and able to put a satellite in space before Sputnik, but they were held back. Our government had little interest in that and did not push it. Our president specifically did not want the aggressive appearance of launching something that would repeatedly fly over enemy territory. (Low Earth Orbit is not really that high above the land, and nobody was sure how it would be interpreted.)

    As for man-in-space, Russia built bigger rocket engines because their engineering was inferior thus: They could not equal American guidance systems, so they had to make bigger, heavier bombs. They needed bigger, dumber rockets to lob their giant dirtballs at us and hope they would land close enough to the targets and cause damage. So they had big rockets, whereas our side simply didn’t need them. The Russians had the lifting ability to throw a man into orbit precisely because their engineering was inferior.

    Your argument is like the one now when people say America can’t even launch a man into orbit anymore. We stopped doing it because there is no reason to. There never really was, and that is why cheerleading for Russia is meaningless. It was a stunt all along. When Americans decided they needed to show up the Russians, they just up and flew to the Moon and that was that. End of argument. We don’t care if the Russians are happy to take fare-paying passengers up the same way they’ve been doing since we went to the Moon, because there really is no reason to go.

    I write this as an avid fan of the Apollo Program. As Neil Armstrong said, “Even if we went for the wrong reasons, I’m glad we went.”

    I am NOT writing this as someone who does not appreciate Russian accomplishments, and I do not believe the bullshit that Russia is a great problem for us. We should have better relations and share a sense of working for the best interests of our shared civilization.

    • Agree: Lot
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    , @reiner Tor
  229. @Anonymous

    Yes and I’ve noticed the same for the Chinese. Those who immigrated from outside China (like Southeast Asia) tend to assimilate much better than those who immigrated directly mainland China. They tend to speak better English and aren’t nearly as gungho about the motherland or the mother culture.

  230. @reiner Tor

    You have a point. Muilenberg needs to step up and show some leadership here. He’s probably getting a big pay cut.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    , @reiner Tor
  231. MarkinLA says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    When the software people are treated as if they are engineers, management must consider that the software people don’t think the same way. Lots of code has bugs, and they get found out in use and fixed one bit at a time, often causing new bugs. Sure it can be tested, but it takes other software to test it (possibly with bugs of its own or at least without all tests being though of). Hardware made by engineers is tested to death before use in the physical world, and there are only certain modes of failure, while software, especially when different “pieces” are connected, seems to have infinite modes of failure.

    This certainly wasn’t true at Hughes Aircraft Company. Software is just another component that is subject to system testing in real life situations. It is true that there is testing of the software to see that it produces what are the expected results based on the requirements done on simulators. However, it doesn’t end there. Module testing in real world test beds follows.

    If the thruster software is being tested, the prototypes are supported in a lab environment and the commands are given to the processor as though they came from the tracking module and data is collected on which thrusters were activated and how the body under test reacted in real time. Any unexpected results means analyze the results and modify the software.

    All the components are tested individually and the final completed units are given real world tests with a lot of telemetry sent back to the engineers.

    As for software being different than engineering, all the algorithms are based on they same science that would be used if it was possible to generate processing units to do the tasks in hardware. In fact, that is what typically happens. Due to size and power limitations some filter or calculation is put into software. As technology improves and the algorithm is perfected, it finds itself placed into a hardware module that operates hundreds if not thousands of times faster than the software. This is exactly what you see in ASIC chips and devices such as graphics processors – the internal algorithm is just a hardwired version of the matrix arithmetic you can see in any computer graphics textbook.

    If software is to blame it is because nobody did any real world testing, not because of some peculiarity of software over hardware.

  232. SLM says:
    @Mr. Blank

    Part of the problem, in my opinion, is that given a set of specs, Indians will adhere to them precisely and with no questions asked. They will not infer anything or kick back anything that doesn’t seem to make sense. You will get EXACTLY what you asked for.

  233. @Steve Sailer

    Russians have 5 major airspace design bureaus – Ilyushin (IL), Tupolev (TU), Sukhoy (SU), Yakovlev (Yak), Mikoyan’s (MIG) plus Antonov in Ukraine. Designs range from local turboprops to large intercontinental passenger planes. I do not have crush statistics to compare but with many factors (service, weather, etc) it would be hard to argue whether Russian/Soviet designs are more or less dangerous for operation than Boeing or Airbus. It would be an AK vs AR flame war.

  234. @BB753

    It’s not like they’re running out anytime soon. That money tree has roots a billion elephants deep. Shake, shake, shake!

  235. @Anonymous

    Of course. The implicit point is that big, fancy HQ => decline.

    Cf. the Pentagon, which the CupLoop was built to emulate/rival.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Desiderius
  236. Kyle says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    Thats ok they can just send out a software update.

  237. Anonymous[355] • Disclaimer says:

    Apparently Apple’s new European HQ is that London power station made famous by Pink Floyd.

  238. @IronCurtain

    Ex-Communist European country airlines had higher crash rates than Western European / North American airlines, last I checked in 2008:

    North America (the U.S. and Canada) accounts for 42 percent of the world’s airline departures, but only seven percent of the fatal events on AirSafe’s list of 2004-2008.

    But Latin America has only seven percent of the departures, but 18 percent of the fatal crashes, since 2004. Thus, airlines headquartered in Latin America have been 16 times as dangerous as airlines based in North America.

    Africa and the Middle East, lumped together, are 42 times as dangerous as North America—with five percent of all departures and 33 percent of all crashes.

    In 2004-2008, there were 45 fatal events involving commercial airliners. 3 (7%) were in North America, which had 42% of flights.

    In contrast, the old Second World (the ex-Soviet Union) looks quite dangerous, with nine crashes among its airlines, or 20% of the world total.

    https://vdare.com/articles/malcolm-in-a-muddle-or-how-gladwell-gladhands-the-cultural-establishment

    2nd World engineers are talented, but Russia has had a higher tolerance for catastrophes for a long time.

    • Replies: @IronCurtain
    , @PiltdownMan
  239. @Buzz Mohawk

    Well, step-civilization. Then again, my step-dad was just over to play with my boys and mow my grass while my arm recovers from fistula removal, so I’m willing to give it a go with the inscrutable scoundrels.

  240. J.Ross says:
    @IronCurtain

    No, it wouldn’t, because the issue here is not whether the Soyuz at its worst couldn’t crank out a world-beating one-off given all its resources marshalled (Bondarchuk’s War and Peace, space stations, etc), the issue here is the local value of individual life. In fact all throughout the Soviet side of the space race you had probably saveable lives sacrificed while magnificent inventions came together. The various Soviet nuclear catastrophes were all completely preventable, but were allowed to happen, not due to inevitability stemming from design, but due to the derangement of originally sound designs.
    This is proven by the enthusiastic Western embrace of brilliant Eastern aeronautical engineers physically removed from their local Mongolian life-value mindset.

    • Agree: kaganovitch
    • Replies: @IronCurtain
  241. @The Wild Geese Howard

    Indian, Pakistani & Bangladeshis feel uncomfortable in a majority White Britain.

    This propaganda will soothe their anxiety & make them feel more welcome.
    It also serves EU & Hollywood designs for their Kalergi style transformation of Europe. If White Brits get conditioned to accept a majority Afro-Pakistani-Indian UK, then the Population Replacement Master Plan will proceed more smoothly.

    • Replies: @jbwilson24
  242. Kyle says:
    @TheMediumIsTheMassage

    Freddy Mercury Elton John and David Bowie are huge fags, so they are allowed to have self serving biopics. In the current year Bruce Paul and Ringo are not worthy of biopics. They aren’t gay, brown, or foreign. Brownness and foreignness must be injected into their stories in order to make them acceptable to current year audiences. And to make it acceptable for multinational corporations to make money off of their nostalgia. I remember the last lame Beatles movie they made, it starred good looking young white swpl types, that is unacceptable. The best Beatles movie is still hard days night. It didn’t take itself too seriously.

  243. @Redneck farmer

    We’re at least hoping for the consolation prize of being served a farewell snack of Naan bread, Popadums & chutney as future 737 Max flights begin crash landings.

  244. MarkinLA says:
    @Tired of Not Winning

    In a company like Boeing there are a lot of levels between the CEO and the people in charge of that anti-stall mechanism. Everybody is going to insist that there was no problem and it was just a bad set of one-off circumstances that led to the crash. This is no different than when a drug is taken off the market. One death and you look for excuses why it isn’t the drug. Once the deaths are statistically significant, then the company is forced to seriously consider that it really is unsafe.

  245. istevefan says:
    @AnotherDad

    In other words Boeing is still cleaning up the misfire of the 757.

    Over one thousand 757s produced in just a 23 year production run. Production ended about 15 years ago and over half of them are still in commercial service. Some misfire.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
  246. Cortes says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Agreed.

    A former colleague at work with a high caste background was the exception. Other decent folks were from Uganda.

  247. @The Wild Geese Howard

    Thanks. I was planning to see this but now no way. I’m so tired of the establishment trying to jam this crap down our throats. I’ve started boycotting any movie with this kind of subliminal message.

  248. Lurker says:
    @Anonymous

    If it’s straight up ethnic origins then I believe U2 are more British than the Beatles are Irish.

    Edge – Welsh.

    Adam Clayton – English.

    50% British right there.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  249. @Hark hark the snark

    I might add that the “White Album” was pretty dang white, musically, too.

  250. @Carol

    Sorry for my stupidity , UN ambassador.

  251. J.Ross says:
    @Lurker

    They’re Orange anyway.

    • Agree: Lurker
    • Replies: @Cortes
  252. @CrunchybutRealistCon

    “Indian, Pakistani & Bangladeshis feel uncomfortable in a majority White Britain.”

    Given the way in which police and social workers covered up their rapes of children, I can’t imagine why that is.

  253. @LondonBob

    Having lived in Russia that is about right, some very smart people but a distinct lack of general Germanic efficiency.

    And yet, they beat the Germans during WWII.

    And the French back in 1812.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    , @Anonymous
  254. Nick Diaz says:
    @Mr. Anon

    “So, tell us, why does America (prior to its present decline) look like America, and India look like India, other than due to the relative abilities of their citizenry?”

    Yeah, in your incredibly simplistic World-view, the sole explanation for the differences in achievement between countries is the poorly-defined and specious concept of intelligence as defined by IQ tests. Going by your stupid logic, then the Industrial Revolution should have happened in Germany first, since the Germans out-score British at IQ tests. And yet, the Industrial Revolution happened first in England. Riddle me that?

    Why is India less developed than America other than for differences in “ability”? Well, out of the top of my head, I can think of several reasons: exploitative colonialism on the part of the British – unlike in America where English came to settle and not exploit the land, the caste system which pretty much restricts what talented people can do with their lives based on their birth, the religions of both Hinduism and Buddhism which disencourages economic and material achievements in favor of spiritual enlightenement, etcetera ad infinitum.

    Follow-up questions: why haven’t the Germans in the south of Brazil achieved as much as the Germans in Germany even when they are racially 100% German? Why was North Korea so much poorer and more backwards than South Korea? Same people, same genes, and yet markedly different outcomes in economic and scientific development.

    There are myriad reasons why nations and civilizations differ in economic achievement; some times the difference is as prosaic as one people having less of an interest in it than other. Classic example are Spanish conquistadores and their descendants never bothering with developing industry in the first place in the countries they ruled since their goal was an oligarchy with them at the top and the rest of the population as their identured servants. In Brazil, for instance, creating industry was literally outlawed up to the early 20th century. Other reasons such as: lack of institutions that foster growth. Classic example is England pioneering the modern era despite both Germany and France being intellectually at their level, because England developed the individual rights and economically libertarian institutions first which allowed businesses to channel scientists and engineers into creating more and more advanced products to please consumers. There was relatively small technological progress up to the development of capitalism. You can have all the scientific talent you want, but it will do you no good if you do not have the reason to put it to work. The best example was China of the Song Dynasty: it was the most advanced Society on Earth, but it stagnated because the Enperor didn’t allow much scientific progress. Capitalism is what gives the reason for scientific progress since science makes products better and cheaper to please consumers, creating a cycle of technological and economic growth. That is what primarilly explains differences between peoples.

    Give up, Ms.Anonyma. You are just not smart.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    , @Anonymous
  255. @Daniel H

    And this is why I have walked away from the Republican party and Donald Trump. They will never change. The Republicans will no longer sucker me with their scam “Hey, we’re bad, but not as bad as the Democrats, so vote for us…” Nope. Let the Democrats win. In fact with insane Democrats at the helm there is the real possibility that the country will become so dysfunctional in such a short order that a governmental/societal collapse will occur. From there we can pick up the still usable pieces for a new order.

    And the bloodshed is going to be more awesome than back during Civil War I.

    I mean, with that prospect in mind, who wouldn’t want a societal collapse in the US.

  256. Lurker says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    The Hawker Kestrel, the plane that became the Harrier predated the Yak-36, so it would seem unlikely that the Russians came up with vectored thrust entirely independently. Even if no espionage were involved they must have at least seen pics and had the concept to work from.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_P.1127

    Similarly the Mi-4 helicopter seemed to be informed by the design of the Sikorsky S-55 but no espionage need be involved.

    Otoh the USSR definitely reverse engineered the B-29 to make the Tu-4 bomber and the Sidewinder missile to make the Atoll AAM.

    The fact they were able succeed in these projects is still a testament to their abilities.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  257. @Anonymous

    As a former (second) shift supervisor at a (locomotive) diesel engine plant, I’m tempted to say the further the better, but the suits don’t actually interfere less it just holds things up more when they do, plus they get distracted by things that have less to do with profitability than making the right product the right way on the first try.

  258. Anonymous[338] • Disclaimer says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    That’s how Western reorganizations

    What kinds of reorganizations are you talking about?

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  259. Anonymous[338] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    U2 are mostly Anglo Saxon and Scottish.

  260. @Charon

    Pretty sure he’ll turn out to have been the second coming and we all (mostly) missed it, then he’ll have a good laugh with the Heavenly Father.

  261. Anonymous[338] • Disclaimer says:
    @95Theses

    I’ve always thought it a tragedy that Americans (and Westerners, generally) who have ready access to an almost inexhaustible store of the greatest music mankind has ever created.

    What would be a representative list of such music?

  262. Anonymous[338] • Disclaimer says:
    @Desiderius

    Of course. The implicit point is that big, fancy HQ => decline.

    Cf. the Pentagon, which the CupLoop was built to emulate/rival.

    What do you infer about Amazon?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  263. Hunsdon says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Justin was my favorite gay Republican.

  264. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I guess at least Boeing has operations in St. Louis, the military side of things, as you say, but maybe the place is too “provincial” for the big wigs.

    To the St. Louis operation, there were St. Louis airplanes and El Segundo airplanes. They didn’t associate with the latter.

    Much like BNSF had “Santa Fe yards” and “BN yards” until, well, as far as I know, forever.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    , @Reg Cæsar
  265. Hunsdon says:
    @LondonBob

    We hung around in the same crowd, sir.

  266. Mr. Anon says:
    @MG

    Yet Trump wants to add more and for some reason Senator Cotton is pushing for an increase in H-1B visas.

    For the reason that he’s a bought-and-paid-for stooge. The Republicans in Congress – most of them – are happy to have all of us disenfranchised in our own country as long as it is done legally. And Trump is happy to go along because he is an unserious blowhard.

  267. Cortes says:
    @J.Ross

    Agreed.

    West Brits… on a good day.

    But Dutch for taxes.

    And international “heroes”.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
  268. Lagertha says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    airplanes or The Beatles…it is all so depressing….however, fighting back is gonna be the real retro thing.

    I am so tired of this crap…and crappy planes and trains in the USA. Outsourcing to India/China/VN/Thailand/Mauritius (just look at the label on the shirt you are wearing) any other poor-labor country, has been the worst thing in the world!

    Is it mean to want Boeing to go bankrupt? Is it too difficult for Boeing or Airbus, for that matter, that people do not want to die on their planes? Sheesh!

  269. Alden says:
    @DB Cooper

    Thanks for the information

  270. @dearieme

    To add to this, the genetic distance between the Irish and English (or the English and Scottish) is actually less than the genetic distance between, say, a Bavarian and a Prussian, or a Sicilian and a Tuscan, certainly less than the distinction between regions of China or India. The English and Irish both need to chill out with this frothing hatred of each other. It seems like one of these leapfrogging loyalties cases.

    • Agree: LondonBob
    • Replies: @Hibernian
    , @Anonymous
    , @SFG
  271. Hunsdon says:
    @IronCurtain

    But those are the best flame Wars!

  272. MG says:
    @95Theses

    Sorry, India has produced “the greatest music” too. You may quibble about the quality of Indian engineers but the music from that land is second to none.

  273. Lagertha says:
    @MG

    cite your data. You have had only 200 comments since 2015…hmmm? bot or jerk? Last I knew, 2nd rate coders are 2nd rate, hahahahaaa…and, the best coders/engineers are of European descent or, well, Europeans or Russians, like Brin. Get off my Cloud!

  274. anonymous[354] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot

    That lid would definitely put mo’ cut in yo strut on windy days.

  275. @The Wild Geese Howard

    Well to be fair, my beloved George Harrison did culturally appropriate Hare Krishna.

    Or maybe he just took it back?

  276. Airplanes rotting in the hangars?

  277. @istevefan

    In other words Boeing is still cleaning up the misfire of the 757.

    Over one thousand 757s produced in just a 23 year production run. Production ended about 15 years ago and over half of them are still in commercial service. Some misfire.

    I guess some boys obsess over some Instagram model, others over an airplane.

    I don’t know what else i can say, because the argument is clear and compelling. It was out of production in 23 years! … because no one wanted it! Too expensive and expensive to run, relative to its capabilities. Yes, that’s called a misfire. Boeing made some money, but poured development resources and capital into something that basically failed to sustain itself longterm.

    Not AnotherDad arguing with you. You’re arguing with, it’s customers … or the lack thereof:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_757#Orders_and_deliveries

    Over and done in two decades, while Boeing:
    a) is still limping on–painfully–with increasingly kludgy variants for a 50 year old 737 … getting beaten by the single aisle plane that Airbus launched instead of the 757,
    b) has no plane to sell in that middle market segment and will be spending billions to develop one that is actually economically competitive and that customers actually want.

    Boeing does not build planes to make guys happy, it builds planes that customers want to buy.

    If you wanted that 757 line to keep cranking you should have ordered 20 or so a year–or convinced some of your buddies to do so–and Boeing would have kept ’em rolling out, just for you.

  278. @The Wild Geese Howard

    I meet your Yesterday and raise you, Midsommar, by horror auteur Ari Aster.

  279. @Anonymous

    If the AOCs take over DC and NY they may never get built.

  280. JackOH says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Our local steel mills had “extra” cash sloshing around because management and directors were deliberately skimping on maintenance and capital investment. Why bother when you know you can’t fight your non-competitive location inland. My Dad, an electrician, was repeatedly asked, “Can you fix it to get us through the shift?”

    That “extra” cash went for the headquarters building and pretty lavish labor contracts. A lot of people understandably snookered themselves into thinking their fat paychecks meant their futures were bright. The shutdown blindsided them.

    I don’t know squat about Apple, but $5 billion is a lot of money for a headquarters building.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  281. @J.Ross

    Preventable but allowed to happen? Sources, please. HBO mini-series do not count.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
  282. @Steve Sailer

    But that’s where the problem is and I have not looked into this in great details – whether the reason for fatal crush was due to design flaw, manufacturing or service mistake, pilot or air controller error needs to be carefully separated for this discussion.
    Recent crush of Sukhoy superjet in Moscow after it was hit by lightning and pilots attempted to land in storm without burning off fuel – they came in fast, plane bounced 3 times before chasse collapsed and punctured fuel tank – was it a structural design problem or a pilot error? I hope they will determine the cause soon.

    • Replies: @Scalper
  283. nsa says:
    @Jim Don Bob

    You will not be able to see the Russian Knights in the USA because of the ridiculous anti-
    Russian hysteria being generated by the PTBs. Google up Russian Knights and go to their website to obtain their schedule. You will probably have to fly to Europe to see them. In the 1990s, nsa resided on the Canadian border and never missed the Abbotsford Air Show, BC, Canada….where the Knights appeared regularly in their gorgeous magnificent SU-27 Flankers. Astounding Full Cobras at 500′ altitude and knife edge 360 degree burner turns right over the crowd were part of every routine. Would talk to the friendly Russian pilots and ground crews who were uniformly very polite humble friendly people. Gratuitously antagonizing the Russians is beneath contempt…..these are decent white people who should be our friends instead of being demonized.

  284. @Steve Sailer

    Russia has had a higher tolerance for catastrophes for a long time.

    You’ve got to figure that’s true, for a country and culture that was willing to take 28 million casualties in WII.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @nebulafox
  285. Anon[141] • Disclaimer says:
    @IronCurtain

    AirSafe.com is a pretty comprehensive site on crash data. The proprietor is a black guy with a Ph.D. in “Aviation Risk Assessment” from a distance learning university that has had its Ph.D. program come under close scrutiny by state regulators. But I’ve used the site for years, and it’s very detailed and well maintained.

    He lists 43 post-1990 “significant events” (deaths >= 1) in the former Soviet Union (he has 37 listed for U.S. and Canada domestic carriers worldwide post 1970).

    13 January 1990
    Aeroflot Tupolev 134A
    near Pervouralsk, Russia

    The aircraft had an onboard fire while in cruise between Tyrmen and Ufa. The crew made a forced landing about two miles (three km) from Pervouralsk. Four of the six crew members and 23 of the 65 passengers were killed.

    1 August 1990
    Aeroflot Yak-40
    Pavlodar, Kazakhstan

    The aircraft was inbound to Stepanakert when the aircraft impacted cloud shrouded high ground about 14 miles (22 km) from the airport. All four crew members and 26 passengers were killed.

    13 September 1990
    Aeroflot Yak-42
    Sverdlovsk, Russia

    The aircraft touched down about one mile (1.6 km) short of the runway during a night approach. One of the five crew members and three of the 124 passengers were killed.

    Continued here:

    http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/fsu.htm

  286. J.Ross says:
    @IronCurtain

    In the cases of stored nuclear waste, the original designs would have worked, but the structures were allowed to atrophy. Had the original design been maintained there would have been no problem.
    https://en.www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyshtym_disaster
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreev_Bay_nuclear_accident
    In the case of Chernobyl, the experiment (which was rejected by every other site asked) should not have been attempted, and the information about the Leningrad accident should not have been made secret. They’re still running RMBK reactors today.
    https://en.www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

    • Replies: @IronCurtain
  287. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lurker

    There were a bunch of VTOL projects in the early sixties, it was the “thing of the future” like turbine cars and Brazil. The Yak-36 was similar in principle to the others but in execution nothing like the HS Kestrel/Harrier, and from observing operations of the type not very sophisticated or capable as opposed to the Harrier.

    The Harrier is a very demanding type in terms of being really able to utilize it to its full capabilities and the Soviet era pilots were mostly “hamburgers”, they would have had few sufficiently capable pilots for the Harrier.

    Soviet era aviation can be viewed in two ways. The aircraft were somewhat crudely built, unrefined, but often nearly the equals of their Western counterparts and certainly easier for client states to maintain.

    Considering the political constraints and poor manufacturing facilities they had to work with one has to admire the design bureaux and their heads and respect the courage it took to fly some of these things, but they were rarely as good an airplane operationally as Western aircraft and rarely as easy or safe to fly. I think if one talks to a modern airshow pilot with both F-86 and MiG-15 or 17 experience, of which there are several, the basic comparison mostly holds true up to the present, although a F-15 or -16 pilot who got to fly the German Luftwaffe or US warbird MiG-29s (I know Don Kirlin in Quincy gave at lest one USAF current F-16 pilot a backseat ride in his -29 recently) would also be a useful data point. Occasionally active duty Russian air force types come through Leavenworth for War College stuff (or did a few years ago) and I’ve met one or two, but they weren’t very talkative except to say they thought US aircraft were definitely prettier, but Russian ones more maintainable in their view.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @Jack Hanson
  288. @Anonymous

    The plane my dad may have worked the most years on, the F-104 Starfighter, was more like a heroic Soviet plane than the traditional American Cadillac of the Skies plane. The F-104 got a lot of pilots killed.

  289. @Anonymous

    You don’t see VTOL much because, as you said, its demanding on the pilots. Also payload and range are currently rather limited by VTOL.

    The USMC uses VTOL sure, but ask them why and you get a lot of talk about the Cactus Air Force and occasionally a story about some Harrier pilot saving a platoon by dropping a bomb (aka any other fire mission) as the reason why VTOL is totally justified. The reason for the VTOL variant F35 is entire because the Marines demanded it, and honestly that should have been the driver for them losing an air wing they never needed post Vietnam.

    The last time VTOL was newsworthy was Camp Bastion, the one battle the marines will not discuss despite the made for TV story of the LTC rallying the clerks and cooks to repel the invaders with his service and dying in the process. The reason VTOL was note worthy was because the Taliban spent about 12k USD to make an air unit combat ineffective and destroy literally irreplaceable vehicles.

  290. @MG

    …..this might be the single stupidest comment of the entire year.

    i’ve been competing tooth and claw against Microsoft in some form or another for the last 15 years–to say that “any blob” could have navigated the transition from the Desktop PC world MS emerged from, to the Cloud one we currently inhabit is……well, it’s something.

    look, i get that you think Indians are the new Jews and it’s tough to keep your stories straight but on this one: Satya is one of the strongest executives–Tech or otherwise–in the last 20 years. and it’s not close.

  291. @Kratoklastes

    And if it’s a coder who ever writes code that adds together numbers taken from a database, it’s a data scientist. (and now, there is a supposed distinction between data scientists, data analysts, and data engineers… I shit you not).

    Fair.

    However, data systems analyst or data analyst is a pretty direct description of what the person does. I think of data scientists as math Ph,D’s who don’t actually code so much as they tell programmers what and how to write the software so it does what it should. Data engineer just sounds like nonsense or worse that the person is fabricating data.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  292. Hibernian says:
    @Peripatetic Commenter

    Thanks to General Winter.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  293. Hibernian says:
    @Anonymous

    El Segundo is or was Northrop and/or Northrop Grumman> Maybe you mean Long Beach and/or seattle.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  294. Hibernian says:
    @SimpleSong

    An example of why DNA isn’t everything, there are these little things called language, culture, and, yes, religion.

    • Replies: @SimpleSong
  295. @nsa

    Gratuitously antagonizing the Russians is beneath contempt…..these are decent white people who should be our friends instead of being demonized.

    Amen.

    Russia is a far more natural ally than places like Saudi, UAE, Qatar, Bahrain, all of which should have been colonized or glassed long ago.

  296. Mr. Anon says:
    @Nick Diaz

    Yes, it has a lot to do with average IQ of the respective populations, as why would it not. Intelligence explains a lot. The innate capabilities of the peoples of Europe and South Asia are obviously quite a bit different.

    As to the rest of what you wrote, I didn’t read it. Who would? Why would I waste my time reading the scribblings of a driveling moron like you?

  297. Anonymous[285] • Disclaimer says:
    @Peripatetic Commenter

    And yet, they beat the Germans during WWII.

    The Americans, Jews, and British beat the Germans. The Russians would have lost without their help.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  298. Anonymous[285] • Disclaimer says:
    @SimpleSong

    To add to this, the genetic distance between the Irish and English (or the English and Scottish) is actually less than the genetic distance between, say, a Bavarian and a Prussian, or a Sicilian and a Tuscan

    Are you sure about that? The English migrated from Germany and Denmark.

    • Replies: @SimpleSong
  299. Anonymous[285] • Disclaimer says:
    @MG

    Sorry, India has produced “the greatest music” too. You may quibble about the quality of Indian engineers but the music from that land is second to none.

    Nope. Unless you are talking about the Gypsies.

  300. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    The 104 was dangerous because it was largely used in roles it was not envisioned for. As a VFR day pure interceptor it was at least as safe as the MiG-21.

  301. Anonymous[285] • Disclaimer says:
    @JackOH

    Why bother when you know you can’t fight your non-competitive location inland.

    What was non-competitive about it?

    • Replies: @JackOH
  302. Anonymous[285] • Disclaimer says:
    @PiltdownMan

    Russia has had a higher tolerance for catastrophes for a long time.

    You’ve got to figure that’s true, for a country and culture that was willing to take 28 million casualties in WII.

    Maybe the Russians weren’t so “willing.” It was just that the executive functions of their society were under the control of foreigners.

  303. @Anonymous

    That’s roughly what my dad said to me in his 90s. The F-104 was designed to keep Soviet bombers from dropping nukes on American cities, so everything was subordinated to unbelievable climbing ability: “a missile with a man in it.” But then Soviets got ICBMs, so Lockheed decided to sell it to Europeans as an all-purpose fighter-bomber. So my dad spent years working on lots of small improvements to make it less crash-prone.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  304. @DB Cooper

    Revolt Media and TV – CEO Roma Khanna has been accused of making racist statements about blacks and supposedly when 30 percent of the staff was laid off, 99 percent of the people laid off were black. Idiot rapper Sean “Diddy” Combs is the figure-head Chairman of Revolt. He defended Khanna against the racism charges. The story was buried in the news last year right before the July 4th holiday.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  305. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Kelly Johnson did not particularly like refining existing designs, which was why Bill Lear and Dee Howard were able to get some pretty big gains on the old Lodestar, and why the P-38 never really got sorted properly: almost all were scrapped and the US had to resort to kluges like the Twin Mustang for long range escort in Korea. With fast feathering hydraulic props nd faster gear doors the P-38 would have been much less dangerous in a single engine takeoff situation, one of the reasons the type was aggressively scrapped out.

    The simple and obvious fix for the 104 in any other role was “more wing”.

    Lockheed did propose the CL-1200 Lancer:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_CL-1200_Lancer

    but it was never really a serious project.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
  306. DB Cooper says:
    @Triumph104

    That doesn’t surprise me. I have seen Indian’s disdain of black people first hand.

  307. JackOH says:
    @Anonymous

    When local iron ore was exhausted, the mills had to rely on Great Lakes freighters bringing in ore. Mesabi Range taconite mostly IIRC. Freighters would dock in Cleveland, and off-load into rail cars for the land journey inland. Then the rail cars would have to be unloaded at the other end.

    Non-competitive on transportation costs with mills that were built directly on the harbor and could off-load ore directly from the freighter to the mill.

  308. @Anonymous

    This was the traditional belief but if I recall correctly it has been shown to be untrue or at least extremely exaggerated. I would have to look up the paper but the traditional narrative about the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes migrating to post-Roman Britain and genetically displacing the prior occupants appears to not have much basis in physical reality. The idea that the Scots and Irish are Celtic and the English Germanic (Anglo Saxon) and the populations are distinct is simply not true.

    Now, obviously, the Angles and the Saxons did migrate; that is historical fact, but rather than displacement there was admixture, with less of a Germanic contribution than believed based on historical records.

    IIRC the paper was in Nature but I’m too lazy to look it up…

  309. @Hibernian

    Meh. Blood is thicker than water. Religion and whatnot are just simply what you grew up with and I’m not going to hold that against anybody. When the chips are down I’m going to be with the Gaelic speaking catholic Irishman rather than the English speaking Nigerian protestant, even though I am an English speaking protestant.

    • Replies: @SFG
    , @Desiderius
    , @HA
  310. @Hibernian

    So the German lost their war in Russia because Russian winters were cold? It must’ve been hard to foresee… But wasn’t it also cold for the Russians?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    , @nebulafox
  311. eah says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    The film is produced by ‘Working Title Films’ (financed by ‘Universal Pictures’, or ‘NBCUniversal’) — the top guy at ‘Working Title’ is Eric Fellner, a Jew.

  312. @Anonymous

    What kinds of reorganizations are you talking about?

    Societal reorganizations, to reply briefly. Follow the comment chain back to my orginal post for more information.

    The most recent Western reorganization was the WW I and WW II sequence of wars..

    Counterinsurgency

  313. @SimpleSong

    I recall Cavali-Sforza’s book grouping the Scots and Irish together as having a close relationship, but the English being most closely aligned with the Danes and the Dutch. I don’t know what was the basis of those trees, it could very well have been far less accurate than current methods.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @SimpleSong
  314. @Tired of Not Winning

    The issue is, I think that the CEO of a company has a responsibility to investigate an accident (killing almost two-hundred people) potentially caused by a faulty product. That would be the Lion Air accident. The fact that Muilenburg failed to investigate the Lion Air crash, or (perhaps even worse), if he investigated, he failed to respond, or (I’m not sure if it’s any better) he was too incompetent to find out the extreme dangers the MCAS would pose in the future, means that he was already responsible for the subsequent ET 302 crash and the deaths of 157 people. The fact that, even while for laypeople like myself it became increasingly clear that something was wrong with the plane, he refused to ground the plane, and kept lobbying to the very last minute to keep the plane in the air, means that his responsibility is greater still.

    I don’t think a pay cut is enough to address this responsibility. He should be sacked and also be held criminally responsible, preferably with time served behind bars.

    This is not to say that his predecessor (and other high ranking officials within the company) responsible for the development of the MAX should not be held responsible. (They should be held responsible for both crashes, but especially the first one.)

  315. @Unladen Swallow

    I might be wrong, but I vaguely remember having read something like half of England being maybe genetically 50% Germanic and 50% Gaelic, while the rest of the country more Gaelic and less Germanic. Though even this might be outdated now.

  316. @Buzz Mohawk

    The Russians had the lifting ability to throw a man into orbit precisely because their engineering was inferior.

    There’s a lot to that, though one thing is clear, contrary to the misconceptions of many, they weren’t simply stealing things through espionage, or otherwise they couldn’t have designed rockets much bigger than the Americans so early in the game.

    Because it seems to me that even in this comment thread many believe that Russians were merely copying. That’s not even true of the Chinese, but of the Russians is pretty false. (Even though there were individual examples of such copying, like the Tu-4 a.k.a. B-29, or the Soviet space shuttle, which was basically a redesigned version of the American Space Shuttle.) A cursory look at their fighter jets reveals that they are pretty different from the Americans, and so are their bombers (what’s the American original of the Tu-95? or the Tu-160? the latter has a superficial resemblance to the Lancer due to supersonic aerodynamics and the variable wings, but is actually a pretty different concept), so despite using industrial espionage (as everyone does, including the Americans, as revealed by Snowden), they didn’t merely copy American products.

  317. LondonBob says:
    @nebulafox

    Yes Russia is very anarchic with weak government structures. It has its plus sides as you can do what you want, just as long as you don’t get on the wrong side of someone powerful.

    • Replies: @By-tor
  318. @Anonymous

    Each of the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter’s wings were only about 7 feet in length, for a total wingspan (including the fuselage section) of about 21 feet. The wing had a razor thin 1/2 mm leading edge and the design was radical and innovative, which let the fighter exceed Mach 2 and climb to 100,000 feet. All iirc, from my military planespotter’s handbook, circa 1969.

    • Replies: @Macumazahn
  319. SFG says:
    @SimpleSong

    I agree with you, but so much of Irish culture is based around hating the English (understandable given the last 800 years) it’s hard to give that up. I suspect one of the big reasons for ‘leapfrogging loyalties’ in Europe is the ancient nature of many of these hatreds–sure those newcomers who beat up the kids and rob people are annoying, but we’ve hated our neighbors for centuries.

    Comments from actual Europeans welcome.

  320. SFG says:
    @SimpleSong

    I’d do the same (assuming both of them didn’t immediately chase me off), but remember as an American (I assume) you may also be reverting to the centuries-old cultural distinction of ‘white versus black’.

    (which has a fairly obvious biological substrate, of course)

  321. @Anonymous

    …it was at least as safe as the MiG-21.

    India lost about half of its approximately 1,000 Mig-21s over forty years of operation. The Luftwaffe and the RCAF lost about a third of their F-104s to accidents over about two decades.

    Neatly tying together the comment about Russians, Indians and aerospace design, the Indians and Russians apparently got into a spat about the Mig-21s a decade ago, with the Russian blaming Indian manufacturing standards, and the Indians blaming the Russians for licensing them an accident prone design.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  322. Dmitry says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Human capital level of software engineers/architects in Russia, can be comparatively very high. This is because there are vastly insufficient quantities of high salary jobs in Russia, relative to applicants and graduates.

    So high salary jobs for a corporation like Boeing in Russia, would attract a large number of applications, which will include some very talented and intelligent people.

    As for Boeing in general – it is a vast investor in Russia.

    Here was Ural Boeing opening a second production line in Sverdlovsk region a few months ago.

    Media tried not to publicize this. (Business relations between America-Russia are not as bad as relations between politicians. )

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  323. @SFG

    I agree with you, but so much of Irish culture is based around hating the English (understandable given the last 800 years) it’s hard to give that up.

    Englishman here.

    I wonder how much of that English hating culture is relatively recent.

    In WWI 206,000 Irishmen volunteered to serve King and country in the British Army. – this does not include officers, men who joined the Royal Navy or air force or men who served in the forces of Canada, Australia, New Zealand or South Africa.

    Neither does it include Irish emigrants in Britain who enlisted there and are not categorised as Irish.

    Australia lists 4,731 of its first World War soldiers as having been born in Ireland, and more than 19,000 Irish-born soldiers served in the Canadian Corps.

    Quite striking numbers don’t you think?

    How many Irishmen took part in the Easter Rebellion?

    Here is an interesting quote from Tom Barry, an Irishman who volunteered for the WWI British Army and later joined the IRA:

    “In June, in my seventeenth year, I had decided to see what this Great War was like. I cannot plead I went on the advice of John Redmond or any other politician, that if we fought for the British we would secure Home Rule for Ireland, nor can I say I understood what Home Rule meant. I was not influenced by the lurid appeal to fight to save Belgium or small nations. I knew nothing about nations, large or small. I went to the war for no other reason than that I wanted to see what war was like, to get a gun, to see new countries and to feel a grown man. Above all I went because I knew no Irish history and had no national consciousness.”

    • Replies: @Ghastly Oik
  324. @Tired of Not Winning

    I do know this is the case for many Chinese from Taiwan, ToNW. They sure aren’t, and never were, gung ho for the Communism. They lived separate from the mainland people for half a century (assuming someone came over here in the 1990’s, say). It’s funny to know someone who IS Chinese by genetics, but really doesn’t like Chinese people, due to the fact the average one they meet in America now is likely from the mainland.

  325. @PiltdownMan

    Since Germans or Canadians are much better at maintenance than Indians, and many of those MiG-21s were produced by the Indians themselves, based on these statistics, the design of the F-104 seems to be significantly less safe than the MiG-21, though as others have pointed out, the F-104 was designed for other roles, so your anonymous interlocutor might be correct.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
  326. @AnotherDad

    Nah, I agree with iSteve on this 757 thing. I’ll give you that 185 seats or so (on the -200, the by far most-produced variant) is a lot of people, but the A321 holds around that many. It may be the -300 that you are thinking of with the 15 minute egress time through that one aisle and 42 or so rows of seats and out the one door (yes, I have timed it once). There weren’t that many of the -300’s made. Those are the ones that look almost like a passenger train from the side and are called the slave ship by the flight attendants! (Yeah, the aisle on the 757s is just about 1 1/2″ too narrow.)

    The 757 is overpowered, but it can also hold a whole lot of fuel, making it very versatile. That power, along with that huge wing, allows it to get into and out of short fields, or on hot days, or into high-elevation places such as Bolivia, or pretty good combinations of all those. These planes are flying people on legs from the US east coast to Europe. (Raleigh, NC to Paris, France was a 757, but was replaced by a 767 for more capacity. The 757 on that route was configured with fewer seat, but I don’t know if that was for weight limits or for passenger comfort.)

    The problem was in the mid-00’s, A.D., that the fuel kept going up, up, up in price. It didn’t look like it would be competitive at the high fuel prices. I’m sure you remember those years. Boeing terminated the line and built the last one in late 2004. Now that fuel has been low for a decade, this plane, with newer engines, would still be very useful. That is why 2 of the 3 “legacy” airlines (the big ones, Delta, United, and American) had asked Boeing if they would reopen the line in Renton, WA. Boeing said no.

    Of course, it’s expensive but best to start a new design from scratch every coupla’ decades. Boeing pretty much bet the company 2 times, with the 707, and then with the 747, per Clive’s book Wide Body. What’s interesting in that book is the description of the mid-1960’s engineers at Boeing treating the 747 project like a red-headed stepchild compared to the SST design that was a big effort. The 747 was to be the slow lunky freighter, compared to the sleek SST. Man, how little has been accomplished as far as really brand-new technology in 50 years!

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  327. @Alice in Wonderland

    Data engineer just sounds like nonsense or worse that the person is fabricating data.

    The reason it does sound like that is because of writers, such as those on Zerohedge writing about financial-world screwage, using the term “engineer” as a pejorative all the time. In fact, that is more annoying to me than even the “help-desk engineer” BS that you hear. “to engineer” has become a verb with bad connotations due to those assholes who use the word to describe fabrication of data or whatever.

    Thanks for bring up just another pet peeve, Alice! ;-}

  328. @Hibernian

    El Segundo is Hughes Aircraft, or what’s left of it, taking up basically 1/2 of that city. There were no aircraft ever being built in El Segundo, though. Northrop was very near there, north Redondo or Torrance or thereabouts.

  329. @Anonymous

    Yes, if by “foreigners” you mean Communists.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  330. @SimpleSong

    You’re getting the Anglo-Saxons mixed up with the Normans. The Anglo-Saxons got in there (hence Angland) while the Normans were content to rule and profit without making much of an impact genetically. The Celts hung on at the margins and mountains and the Emerald Isle.

    • Replies: @SimpleSong
  331. @Dmitry

    relations between politicians

    The politicians we elected relate fine. Not so much the unelected.

  332. @reiner Tor

    Cold and big. Russians were used to it. Germans (who also made up a good bit of the Grand Armee at that point, French had the same problem anyway) were not.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  333. @SimpleSong

    Right now we’d do well to team up with both to bring our English-speaking formerly protestant ruling class back down to earth before they destroy us all.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
  334. Moldbug suggested rule by pilots as a thought experiment. Reading this thread I’m good to go for real.

  335. AceDeuce says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Rumor had it that the Chicago move was at the behest of the then-CEOs wife, who wanted to live there.

    The big aviation/defense behemoths have been steadily moving east–away from the places that actually do the work/make the stuff. Northrop Grumman and Lockheed both left California to suckle on the DC teat, and Boeing’s defense division, headquartered in St. Louis-the old McDonnell Douglas HQ, moved their top execs to Arlington, VA, right on the Pentagon’s doorstep, while leaving the bulk of the workforce in St. Louis—similar to the Chicago-Seattle split.

  336. AceDeuce says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I believe they have two AOA sensors installed, but only one was wired for MCAS.

  337. AceDeuce says:
    @bucky

    He came from the defense side–a first for Boeing CEOs.

  338. HA says:
    @SimpleSong

    “Religion and whatnot are just simply what you grew up with and I’m not going to hold that against anybody.”

    Oh, I will. Vehemently. To the extent that Aztecs really did practice live human sacrifice as written, I understand why the conquistadors regarded them as inferior and barbaric and engaging in something that was reprehensible. Good for them. We DON’T expect that people just accept what they grew up with. Even liberal types who can’t stop yammering about the magical superiority of native ways don’t give a pass to children of white rednecks with racist views, so it’s not as if they’re especially accommodating of inherited beliefs, either.

    Sure, we can recognize the difficulty of rising above what one grew up with, and even make allowances, but these days, religion is generally more than just a tribal affiliation. (For some people, anyway.) It’s OK to believe in right and wrong, and to choose sides on the basis of that — even if ones fathers and grandfathers might have seen it differently. Europe (or however you want to generalize that) didn’t get to be Europe just by keeping to the ways of the ancestors, and if that ever becomes the main thing that people here are fighting for, they will deserve to lose.

  339. @reiner Tor

    … so your anonymous interlocutor might be correct.

    Apologies for not posting the relevant links to the analysis and details about the Russian-Indian Mig-21 controversy; I had my eye on them a day ago, but failed to save them. I’ll post as soon as I find them again.

    • Replies: @PiltdownMan
  340. Anonymous[109] • Disclaimer says:
    @Nick Diaz

    Going by your stupid logic, then the Industrial Revolution should have happened in Germany first, since the Germans out-score British at IQ tests. And yet, the Industrial Revolution happened first in England. Riddle me that?

    That one’s easy, there’s more easily accessible coal in England than in Germany.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
  341. CBTerry says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    Boeing was cutting corners long before that with the 787, essentially outsourcing the manufacture of the aircraft and just assembling the plane in the US. The result was a plane that was three years late.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  342. @Anonymous

    Nothing against them, #338. I’d just be guessing if I I made a whole big list.

  343. CBTerry says:
    @MG

    Please provide some links. If this is true I should hate to be missing out. Thank you.

  344. @Desiderius

    That’s just a very small part of the story, and not even really true.

    Given the state of the Workers’ and Peasants’ Red Army in late 1941, they didn’t really have enough winter equipment anyway. I’ve seen statistics from the Winter War in 1939/40, and apparently the Finnish Army suffered much lower losses than the Red Army due to frostbite and similar specific weather-related problems. I vaguely remember having read about the 1941/42 winter campaign something similar – the Soviets suffered higher losses due to frostbite than the Germans. Granted, they were on the offensive, but still. Anyway, I’m sure you’re aware that German monthly losses during the winter months were actually lower than they had been during the summer. The bitter fighting in June through October, which destroyed much of the pre-war Red Army, took its toll on the Germans, too. The winter resulted in a general lull in the fighting (even despite the Soviet offensive), so German losses got lower. (And Soviet losses much lower, which resulted in a ratio more favorable to the Soviets.)

    Putting aside the question of whether the Soviets were used to it or not, it’s not something which came out of the blue. The Germans should’ve planned for that. Russian winters have always been well-known to be extremely long and hard. The example of the Grande Armée is a good one: the Germans must’ve studied it before planning to take Moscow (or else they were idiots), and they must’ve been aware that the winter was going to be extremely cold.

    Another interesting point is that initially the Germans welcomed the early frost. That’s because their vehicles got stuck on the Russian roads (not yet covered with asphalt or concrete) during the rainy season (“rasputitsa”) in October, while the early frost in November enabled them to resume their offensive.

    The big disadvantage the Germans had was that they weren’t fighting on one front only. A significant part of their army was stationed in France even in 1942 (as a small example, a couple elite SS divisions were diverted to France sometime in the second half of 1942, and they might’ve made a difference in or around Stalingrad), the troops in Norway were kept there just in case the British attempted to land there, a third of the German air force was used in the West in 1941 (and in 1942 it grew to two-thirds; some 40% of German war production was used for the air force or air defense, so that’s not insignificant), of course the air defense tubes could’ve been used to take out Soviet tanks instead of British (and after 1942, American) bombers as well, the Afrika Korps was relatively small, but it consisted of elite divisions, so it wasn’t exactly insignificant either (especially together with the large amounts of coal and steel Germany had to supply Italy with), not to mention the portion of war production used up to produce warships (mostly submarines; also maybe 10-15% of German war production) etc. etc.

    Add to that Lend Lease (including shipments they received from the British). Russians usually argue that it had been insignificant until 1943, and there’s some truth to it. Still: by December 1941, the amount of battle tanks received from the West (mostly the UK, and maybe Canada) was equal to 10% of the Soviet tank stock at that time. (It would’ve been insignificant in June, but the Soviets suffered enormous losses until December.) Was it insignificant? The warplanes they received were often more modern than their own models.

    Another point is that even if the Soviets stopped the Germans on their own by early 1943 (not entirely true, as seen above), they surely wouldn’t have been able to resume the offensive after the summer of 1943 without the many American trucks and other vehicles. The Americans enabled the motorization of the rebuilt Red Army to a degree which certainly would’ve been impossible in the absence of Lend Lease. So, while it’s possible that without Lend Lease the Germans would still have been stopped at Moscow and Stalingrad, would they have been pushed back all the way to Berlin? Would there be Soviet troops at the Branderburger Tor? I’m pretty sure the answer is negative.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  345. @Achmed E. Newman

    Dang, I always make that mistake. I meant Bogota, Colombia, when I wrote “Bolivia”. Nobody knowingly flies into Bolivia, do they? (Except maybe a current-day pair of Banditos Yanquis.)

    I also was referring to commenter iSteveFan, not our host, in the 1st sentence.

    One more thing, A.D. – the Delta guys are saying that even those new A321s they’ve got cannot do the trans-con flights the right way, the way the 757’s do. It IS a hell of an airplane.

  346. JMcG says:
    @reiner Tor

    The people responsible for the second crash were the pilot and first officer. They followed exactly none of the checklists for a trim problem. I’m leaving out the jargon for clarity. They were apparently cognitively incapable of dealing with a relatively minor problem.
    They should have practiced responses to runaway trim many times in recurrent simulator training.
    This is not to say that Boeing is blameless, because it is not; but no one flew that plane into the ground besides the clown show in the cockpit.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  347. JMcG says:
    @Anonymous

    Well, not the landing part.

  348. @HA

    Well said.

    The ways of our ancestors (aka tradition) are a collection of their own innovations that stood the test of time, so it would behoove us to at least understand their logic before discarding (better supeceding) them, but if we are to carry on their traditions then we must innovate ourselves, as that is the foremost among those traditions.

  349. @nsa

    Thanks, nsa. I’d love to see a Cobra at 500′.

  350. anon[656] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Fits my experience. Indian guys I’ve known from the diaspora – just off the top of my head Guyana, Trinidad, Mauritius, Tanzania – are definitely a mellower variety than FOB subcons. True whether Hindu or Muslim, although most kept their religion (if any) to themselves. But these guys are generally from an older generation.

  351. @SFG

    … but so much of Irish culture is based around hating the English (understandable …

    Comments from actual Europeans welcome.

    Not an actual European. But my comment for my Irish cousins: “grow up”.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
  352. @Anonymous

    Majority of these casualties were civilians not military losses. Just Blockade of Leningrad accounts for 900K.

  353. @AnotherDad

    Horse, dead, beat. But just to be clear, not saying 757 isn’t a fine plane, people shouldn’t like it etc.

    Nor am i saying it’s a misfire on the order of the A380–totally misplaced resources debacle.

    I’m saying it’s a program that was just a dead-end. Not what the company needed to be doing. Did not move the company forward.

    I think the closest analogy would by the A340. Like the 757, the A340 sold some planes, made some money, but just fizzled to a zero order end, without having moved Airbus any closer to the product lines it needed to have. I’d say the A340 was less of a misfire than the 757 because it pretty directly fell out of the very valuable A330 program. But still like the 757 it was just not what the company needed to do to move forward (Which for Airbus was get going on a big twin like Boeing’s 777.)

  354. @MG

    If you like the sound of someone torturing cats while periodically throwing pots and pans, then you are correct.

  355. KenH says:

    With all the radical cost cutting and outsourcing that’s been occurring in the aerospace industry the average person should be a little worried about the safety of air travel. Starting in the 1990’s aerospace started adopting automotive industry initiatives and practices with predictable results. It was all designed to boost profits, stock price and make executives and stock holders rich but at the expense of product quality and reliability and middle class jobs.

    This revelatory story also explodes the myth that Indians are little geniuses who are indispensable to the American economy. Bill Gates, Boeing, Apple and everyone else love the H1B program not because it gives us skilled labor that America lacks but because H1B’s work for around a third to no more than one half the wage and salary that an American citizen can command. At $9/hr Boeing was paying Indian software engineers far less than even that.

    El Trumpo was supposed to put an end to the H1b visa scam but that was just another lie and his real loyalty lies with other billionaires like him who get rich off of cheap labor.

    Since aerospace corporate execs now worship at the alter of diversity and have adopted the hiring practices of the U.S. Post Office don’t expect the problems plaguing the 737 MAX to be the last of Boeing’s tribulations or the rest of the aerospace industry.

  356. @J.Ross

    Did you actually read the long wiki on Chernobyl?
    “This capability still needed to be confirmed experimentally, and previous tests had ended unsuccessfully. An initial test carried out in 1982 indicated that the excitation voltage of the turbine-generator was insufficient; it did not maintain the desired magnetic field after the turbine trip. The system was modified, and the test was repeated in 1984 but again proved unsuccessful. In 1985, a test was conducted a third time but also yielded negative results. The test procedure was to be run again in 1986, and scheduled to take place during a maintenance shutdown of Reactor 4”
    How does it support your thesis when engineers are actively trying to test its safety?

  357. @Desiderius

    Right now we’d do well to team up with both to bring our English-speaking formerly protestant ruling class back down to earth before they destroy us all.

    English-speaking formerly protestants like … George Soros? Chuck Schummer? Nancy Pelosi?

    English Protestants–specifically the Puritan descended Protestant Progressives–do tend toward a lot of utopian, fix-the-worldism. They’ve been behind, or involved with–off the top of my head:
    — Mormonism
    — abolition
    — temperance / prohibition
    — immigrantion control
    — women’s sufferage / 1st wave feminism
    — environmentalism
    — population control.

    But they were not the ones who pushed to reopen immigration. Yankee Protestants had worked for closure.

    They certainly did not invent this cancerous ideology of minoritarianism–minorities good, majorities bad!–or “nation of immigrants”ism, the ideology that is actually destroying the West. That was/is the Jews. And flows directly from Jewish self-interest–pentration and balkanizing coherent (possibly resistant) majorities.

    The big WASP crime isn’t creating this disaster, it’s actually their sportsmanly stepping out of the way and letting the Jews “march through the institutions” and grab the commanding heights of media, academia, culture, finance, politics in the US.

    I can remember–just barely–the before (or during transition) time. The concerned-WASP ideology was population control, pollution, “The Limits to Growth”.

    But for the Jews, the WASP progs right now would probably be flying the fag flag, and blathering endless about climate change and for us all to fix our lifestyles. But when it comes to demgraphics they’d also be talking about population control in Africa, not Open Borders.

    The “English Protestant” ideology has always been that
    — English Protestants are the best people in the whole wide world
    and
    — everyone else should strive to behave like an English Protestant.

    English Protestants are not the people who developed ideas like “white people suck and do not deserve their nations” or “i’m going to flood our city with Congolese”.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  358. Anonymous[256] • Disclaimer says:
    @SFG

    but so much of Irish culture is based around hating the English (understandable given the last 800 years)

    It isn’t “understandable.” At all. The Irish have thrived under English governance, whether in Ireland (where their birth rates skyrocketed), or in the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand (where they were given access to vast areas of new territory and some of the wealthiest nation states in world history).

  359. @Steve Sailer

    The plane my dad may have worked the most years on, the F-104 Starfighter…

    How many guys can begin a sentence with that clause?

    Cool.

  360. @Steve Sailer

    My comments on this blog sometimes appear immediately without moderation, but sometimes they are stuck in moderation longer than others. It doesn’t appear to be connected to comment quality at all.

    Though maybe the later comments are also not pre-moderated. In which case probably the only question is what triggers the software to occasionally hold up my comments.

    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
  361. @Ghastly Oik

    To clarify my comment regarding the Irish English hating culture

    I suspect this culture was very much a minority narrative, up to Irish independence.

    Many with this minority narrative would have emigrated and I think there is always a tendency to romanticise the old country you leave behind.

    But the numbers that volunteered in WWI suggests the Irish people in Ireland didn’t have quite as much hatred for the English as the modern narrative of Irish history would have us believe.

    After independence I suspect that English hating narrative then became the Irish state narrative, and after a bloody civil war if you didn’t agree with the winning side, you’d best keep your mouth shut.

    Now it seems like the English hating narrative is the only narrative.

    I think retconned is the word.

  362. @reiner Tor

    Two of my comments yesterday disappeared into the aether. I repeated one twice and the other three times, but none appeared. Other comments of mine appeared as usual, even though I wrote them around the same time. Generally my comments appear quickly, so this was unusual.

    Personally I am amazed that this site and its writers continue to get through at all, and that we all haven’t had Rods of God come down on our houses. Not that this has anything to do with our comment glitches.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  363. @Buzz Mohawk

    Personally I am amazed that this site and its writers continue to get through at all, and that we all haven’t had Rods of God come down on our houses.

    Truly a miracle.

  364. Svevlad says:

    Russian engineers fucking something so basic?

    Doubt.wmv, unless they had schoolchildren do it. Which they probably did

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  365. nebulafox says:
    @PiltdownMan

    Surrender in WWII was not really an option for them, even without Stalinist coercion tactics. The Nazis wanted to culturally exterminate the Russian people. They would either starve them to death, deport them to Siberia, or turn them into helots.

    The constant hyper-focus of the US media on the Holocaust means that the fact that what the Nazis planned long term in Eastern Europe went far, far beyond just getting rid of the Jews gets forgotten.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Hunsdon
  366. nebulafox says:
    @reiner Tor

    Hitler and the German high command were so confident of German victory (Anglo-American observers thought so, too) that they didn’t bother prioritizing winter clothes for the Wehrmacht until it was too late. That, and the reinforcements around Moscow in late 1941 were crack divisions from Siberia who were used to this on a yearly basis.

    In one of those grimly ironic bits of history, Adolf Hitler himself seemed to figure out that the Germans could no longer win the war conventionally well before his generals did, self-serving post-war whitewashing aside.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @reiner Tor
  367. @AnotherDad

    English Protestants are not the people who developed ideas like “white people suck and do not deserve their nations” or “i’m going to flood our city with Congolese”.

    Yet more evidence that you haven’t darkened the door of a church in at least a generation.

    English-speaking formerly protestants like … George Soros? Chuck Schummer? Nancy Pelosi?

    No, like the American leadership of the Methodist church who wanted to make rule by clownworld official but got shut down by the descendants of the Africans their own ancestors had evangelized back when churches did such things.

  368. @Desiderius

    Nope! I’m talking about the Anglo Saxons. The Normans had virtually zero genetic legacy.

    Here is a link to the paper:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4632200/

    Money quote from the summary:

    We estimate the genetic contribution to SE England from Anglo-Saxon migrations to be under half, identify the regions not carrying genetic material from these migrations, suggest significant pre-Roman but post-Mesolithic movement into SE England from the Continent, and show that in non-Saxon parts of the UK there exist genetically differentiated subgroups rather than a general “Celtic” population.

    Upshot: the “Anglo Saxon” English are not actually Anglo Saxon, for the most part, and the Celts are not really a thing.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
  369. @Unladen Swallow

    Here’s the paper:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4632200/

    published in Nature, so I assume the methodology is good. Very, very surprising findings, that the English, while they have some Anglo Saxon, are for the most part NOT Anglo Saxon, but rather, the stuff that was there before with some Anglo Saxon spiciness thrown in.

  370. anon[178] • Disclaimer says:
    @nebulafox

    Yes, GeneralPlan Ost. Exterminating Slav populations and replacing them with Germans.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

    And now we’re experiencing the Globalist Generalplan West.

  371. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Lapsed Protestants/evangelicals are worse. Lapsed Catholics have a tendency to be commies, but lapses evangelicals are 100 percent autistic social justice warriors. Commies are somewhat saner than neoliberal social justice warriors.

    People who leave a religion are usually more liberal than people who were barely brought up in it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  372. @HA

    Another way to look at that is to say that religion is an emergent phenomenon based on the average genetic traits in the population. You can stamp out the religion if you want, but the population traits that created it will cause similar phenomenon to emerge.

    Pre Columbus/Catholicism, the Aztecs cut out hearts of captured warriors. Post Columbus/Catholocism, they cut off the heads of captured narco informers. Different century, same stuff. Religion ain’t got nothing to do with it, it’s just who they are.

    The Irish and the English are damn close genetically and the faiths that they follow are, as far as religions go, darn near indistinguishable. Not something worth fighting over.

    • Replies: @nebulafox
    , @HA
  373. J.Ross says:
    @HA

    But the Irish conflict has nothing to do with theology and there is no “rising above” caste.

  374. @SimpleSong

    Thanks Simple.

    I’ll read through. Anglo-Saxons accounting for something approaching half, even in a limited (SE) region suggests a decent sized migration.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
  375. Hunsdon says:
    @nebulafox

    The way the Germans waged war in the East was very different from the way they waged it in the West.

    • Agree: nebulafox
  376. nebulafox says:
    @SimpleSong

    It’s certainly emergent, but I don’t think humanity’s tendency for religious faith is as much about genetics so much as culture and politics at the time. Islam as we know it today largely arose in response to the Arab conquests, for example, rather than the other way around as commonly thought. All kinds of people from Persians to Greeks ended up converting out of the usual mix of pragmatism and belief. (Remember: back then, military victory == God’s favor.)

    The reason I don’t think genetics matters in this particular case much is because I think the majority of people are inclined to “religious” in one way or another, regardless of race. See the cliche of being “spiritual but not religious” in the modern West-or, more disturbingly, US politics these days, with modern leftism essentially trying to be Christianity without God. Humans want to know their existence means something more than it does. They crave ritual, they crave rites, they crave-in moderation-sacrifice and a higher cause. It’s a very, very deeply felt impulse, and even when wrong, human intuition about “how the world works” is powerful: it takes a certain kind of personality or mental chemistry to reject that. Atheists-especially outside of the Western world-are not typically the most intuition/emotion-following people for a reason.

  377. @Hunsdon

    One end of a tuba is different than the other.

  378. Anonymous[109] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hunsdon

    Right. The only time in the war the Germans really ‘took off the gloves” and fought the Western powers like they fought the Russians was the Ardennes offensive at the end of 1944.

  379. nebulafox says:
    @Hunsdon

    More people were killed at Kursk alone than the whole Western Front in ’44-45. Russian (and Chinese in Asia) annoyance at Hollywood portrayals of the war is somewhat understandable, to be honest. I’m as proud of American achievements as anybody, but whenever there’s a WWII discussion when I’m in the States, I always try to bring up the Eastern Front. For people raised on a diet of Spielberg, the lack of knowledge and appreciation of what happened there is astounding.

    (Interestingly, the Germans are less apt to do this, having lost the overwhelming majority of their men in the East: “Our Fathers, Our Mothers” is Eastern Front-centric.)

    • Replies: @Hunsdon
  380. nebulafox says:
    @Anonymous

    Most of the German divisions on the Western Front were a mix of new teenage conscripts and older retreads. The best soldiers had already been killed in the USSR or were trying to somehow hold things together against the Bagration onslaught. And as things like the Hürtgen Forest showed, the Wehrmacht was still capable of mauling us whenever it was a remotely fair fight.

    It was American air power and artillery that proved to be the decisive factor. It didn’t matter how higher quality their troops were, the Germans just had no way of answering that, least of all with the Reich increasingly a wasteland. Even the Soviets didn’t have the same level of industrial capacity as the United States: which Stalin probably well knew.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
  381. Anonymous[256] • Disclaimer says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Yes, if by “foreigners” you mean Communists.

    By foreigners, it is meant Georgians, Kalmiks, and others in leadership, security, and intelligentsia positions who were not ethnic Russians.

  382. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @S. Anonyia

    People choose religion (to the extent they have a choice) either because they were raised in it or in spite of or as a reaction to what they were raised with. The exceptions are politicos and gold diggers who convert for reasons of convenience or profit.

    Like Chelsea or Ivanka, or that toad that married Susanna Hoffs.

    • Replies: @anon
  383. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @nebulafox

    Hitler was a domestic political genius and a military dumbass, plus which he went way too far in dehumanizing too many enemies at the same time. But what made US entry into the war inevitable is that he declared war on the US because Japan. Had he not done so the US might have been kept out of the ETO long enough to make the difference.

    That, and going after Moscow instead of Stalingrad……had he let the General Staff do their jobs, it might have been different.

  384. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @CBTerry

    I would love to see some furrin competition genuinely and properly-i.e., by making a better airplane cheaper-undercut Boeing, even better the engine and avionics companies. If P&W had its margins whacked in the balls I’d be thrilled. What I don’t want is for US companies to be undercut by political machinations instead of better products.

    Why? We need to be forced to make consumer products, which no one wants to do. It’s less profitable and more labor intensive, less capital efficient. From a nationalist rather than capitalist perspective, though, it makes sense.

    • Replies: @anon
  385. HA says:
    @SimpleSong

    “Another way to look at that is to say that religion is an emergent phenomenon based on the average genetic traits in the population.”

    It depends on what you mean by “based on”. No one is arguing that average genetic traits in the population don’t shift the odds of where a population will go, but the relationship is not deterministic.

    There’s far too much simplistic handwaving on this site about how average genetic traits, or lack of melanin, or whatever, is really what caused white people to advance, topped off with smug assurance that this is somehow “science” — as opposed to a mish-mash of guesswork and wishful thinking and just-so stories; i.e., just another faith-based system. At least religious types are honest enough to admit that they’re going by faith. But the genetic determinists, just like the “race is a social construct” types, insist that what they believe in is something inevitable and rationally pure and that it has been “blessed” by science, though they obviously wouldn’t phrase it in that way.

    For example, the determinists want to believe that it wouldn’t have mattered if Charles Martel or Jan Sobieski or Don John had lost, because emergent average genetic traits, or whatever, would have transformed Islam into some gentle European form, or magically prevented it from advancing further than it did, and in the end, we’d all be pretty much where we are. Prove it, I say. The MENA peoples had far more going for them than the people of the North who worshipped under oak trees and prayed to Odin or Mithra as they went about trashing the Roman empire. The MENA peoples invented writing, they invented the wheel, they invented agriculture — they invented civilization itself. Islam still managed to turn them into something they never were — second rate. It didn’t do a whole lot for the millions of Europeans that embraced it either, be they Chechens, or Tatars, or Bosnians, and Christians from the Middle East seem to into Western culture as well (and sometimes far better) than any of them.

    But yeah, sure, our magical European whiteness is enough to save us from all that. 100% guaranteed.

    You’re free to believe what you want. But you should at least be honest enough to admit that belief is all it is.

  386. By-tor says:
    @LondonBob

    Because, you can get on the wrong of someone powerful in the US and nothing will ever happen to you neither here nor overseas. Right…

  387. @Anonymous

    Much like BNSF had “Santa Fe yards” and “BN yards” until, well, as far as I know, forever.

    To this day the Packers have separate Green Bay and Milwaukee season tickets, even though it’s been over 25 years since a regular season game in Milwaukee. Of course, the Milwaukee people inherited them. George could free his own slaves, but not Martha’s.

    The Packers don’t hate Milwaukee season ticket holders–honest

  388. anon[256] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Like Chelsea or Ivanka, or that toad that married Susanna Hoffs.

    Is Judaism a religion of a set of club membership rules?

  389. anon[256] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Why? We need to be forced to make consumer products, which no one wants to do. It’s less profitable and more labor intensive, less capital efficient. From a nationalist rather than capitalist perspective, though, it makes sense.

    What makes sense about it?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  390. @Anonymous

    The fighting in Normandy prior to the massive aerial bombardment and breakout at St. Lo was pretty fierce. Operation Goodwood, a Canadian attempt to break through the German front at Normandy, was massacred. If, on the other hand, you mean large prisoner executions, yes, that was a feature of the Battle of the Bulge, carried out mostly by Waffen SS units whose Russian front experience probably led them to believe it was a normal practice.

  391. Hibernian says:
    @Anonymous

    The Allies would have lost without the Russians’ help. I have argued strenuously against those who profess the belief that the USSR won the war almost single handedly. That being said, the opposite view is also irrational.

  392. @Desiderius

  393. @JMcG

    Third world pilots have flown airliners for half a century. Pretty interesting that over the past couple years, they lost only two hulls with the same type of aircraft. That it’s a very new and rare type of aircraft makes quite the coincidence.

    The MAX was unsafe, because it regularly put the pilots in situations where they needed to follow difficult to follow procedures.

    I’m not sure you understand what it means if some software tries to fly the plane into the ground while the plane is merely a thousand feet above ground and surrounded by mountains.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  394. @nebulafox

    they didn’t bother prioritizing winter clothes for the Wehrmacht until it was too late.

    Already in October and then again in November 1941, they thought about sending winter clothes to the front, but then decided that defeating the Soviets just needed that one last push, and so they sent ammunition and fuel instead.

    In one of those grimly ironic bits of history, Adolf Hitler himself seemed to figure out that the Germans could no longer win the war conventionally well before his generals did, self-serving post-war whitewashing aside.

    I was pretty astonished to learn it, because it’s the opposite of what was traditionally taught and thought. Hitler is always thought to be this madman who believed in the final victory even while sitting in his bunker in Berlin. Nothing could be further from the truth: he was simply lying. He had nothing to lose, and he wanted to wait to the last minute to see if some miracle might happen. If not, suicide was always possible. He made enough people complicit enough in his crimes that fear of retribution made them fight for him even when everyone had already figured out that Germany was about to lose. Because obviously most people understood by 1943 that they were not going to win the war.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Anonymous
  395. anon[256] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    He had nothing to lose, and he wanted to wait to the last minute to see if some miracle might happen.

    Wrong. He had his people and his nation to lose, the things that were most precious to him in this life.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  396. @anon

    Well, he knew that after the lost war, Germany would be destroyed with soft methods. It was easy to think he was wrong in the 1960s or even in the 1990s. Since 2015, we know for a fact that Germany is being destroyed. We can debate whether it was inevitable, but Hitler certainly believed so.

    Anyway, his thinking was that Germany was either National Socialist or it was not going to survive. So no, he had nothing to lose.

    • Replies: @anon
  397. anon[279] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    Anyway, his thinking was that Germany was either National Socialist or it was not going to survive. So no, he had nothing to lose.

    Then it would be more accurate to write that he believed Germany had nothing to lose.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  398. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    Consumer products can be built with people you’d never let in to a jet engine blade forging plant or a nuclear reactor factory, or at least some of them can. I did a job at an ag machinery plant once and I was amazed how some fairly critical jobs could be performed reliably by some people who would have been unemployable in any other sector, for various reasons. That it was in a small cohesive town probably made a big difference. I’m sure that’s true of washing machine and refrigerator plants.

    And consumer products impact the average person in many direct ways. We all own a refrigerator, a washing machine, a vacuum cleaner. How many people own a jet engine, with or without the airframe it goes in? No one owns their own nuclear reactor, and I can’t imagine anyone owning a MRI machine, although it’s probably not actually illegal. I still remember my parents’ refrigerator -it died when I was in junior high, and it was almost like losing, if not a family member, at least a pet. Chinese made appliances are usually unrepairable, you can’t get parts, or a service manual. Look at the stuff they sell at Harbor Freight and consider what you’re going to do with that compressor if it blows a gasket.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  399. awry says:
    @The Wild Geese Howard

    And don’t peddle the BVR missile crap…there are plenty of quality studies out there that show BVR missile kills are a seriously low percentage of air combat kills.

    Depends on the timeframe. Already in 1991 the majority of air combat kills were with the Sparrow. In 1999 all were with the AMRAAM if I remember correctly.
    I guess the Indians learned to respect BVR’s this year too, allegedly the pakis downed one of their Su-30MKI’s too with an AMRAAM. They won’t admit it of course, but they have shown the debris of an exploded AMRAAM to prove that the pakis used it.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  400. LondonBob says:
    @nebulafox

    German units on the Western Front were well equipped and highly experienced such as the Panzer Lehr, 1st, 2nd, 9th, 10th and 12th SS. A lot of the Allied forces saw their first action in the Normandy invasion. Air superiority had been hard won by the RAF years earlier with the Battle of Britain.

  401. @awry

    There’s no evidence of a Su-30MKI being downed by the Pakis. There’s evidence that the longer range of the AMRAAM meant that the Pakis could fire at the MKIs and they were unable to respond (because they were using an obsolete Russian missile with a shorter range). This is the problem with a stealth fighter launching AMRAAMs: the opposing fighters won’t be able to respond in kind, and will be constantly forced to do evasive maneuvers without doing anything useful. If the AMRAAM has a 1% chance of hitting its target, the stealth fighter already has all the advantages needed in a long term battle of attrition.

    I think that basically all of the AMRAAM hits have been scored against vastly inferior opponents, so I’m not sure that the high rates of success would hold up against well-trained well-equipped peer or near-peer opponents. But it doesn’t have to score to cause enormous problems in terms of mission kill.

  402. @anon

    Due to his enormous ego, I don’t think he thought very clearly about how to distinguish his own personal interests from the German national interests, for example he never seems to have thought about ways to save Germany by removing himself from the equation. Churchill wrote that in 1944 he had nightmares about Hitler flying to England (the way Hess had done), and telling them: “do whatever you want with me, but please spare my people.” I’m not saying this would have saved Germany, but certainly what he chose (waiting for the very last minute until Germany was totally destroyed, especially the most selfless nationalists in the Wehrmacht and the Waffen-SS) discredited nationalism (especially National Socialism) way more than giving up earlier.

    So I think overall my choice of words was correct.

    • Replies: @anon
  403. Orangeman says:

    Viewed a doc on the sinking of the Mary Rose recently. Ship sank from the inability to get cannon doors shut in time as ship turned. Supposedly the last words of the captain were, essentially, that his crew were unmanageable.

    Analysis of skeletons revealed 60% of the crew were from “southern climbs”. Producers couldn’t bring themselves to use the identifier Spanish who were recruited as mercenaries or pressed into service to bolster Henry VIIIs forces.

    Unreasonable to state inexperience with RN practices and or a language barrier was a direct cause of the disaster…16th century outsourcing caused the death of 400 sailors and the RNs finest ship of the day ?

    Show deftly side stepped it all. No doubt the audience was supposed to be impressed with the vibrancy of the crew though..

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @HA
  404. JMcG says:
    @reiner Tor

    I do understand what it means. Both accident crews failed to follow their runaway trim checklists. Had they done so, they could have manually flown their aircraft to safe landings. The second crew in particular allowed their airspeed to increase to the point where they were effectively test pilots. (Again,much elided for brevity.)
    I hold no brief for Boeing at all, it’s just another globalizing corporation to me, but both crashes scream cognitive overload to me.
    William Langewiesche will probably write a long, thoughtful piece in the Atlantic in a couple of years saying as much after the furor has settled down.
    There’s been no report and no controversy over the 767 flying packages for Amazon that crashed in a marsh in Texas around that time. Do you wonder why?

  405. @Anonymous

    Ahaa! Harbor Freight, yes. I have a funny story about Harbor Freight and Cheap China-made Crap involving a $10 DIY tire repair kit that I THOUGHT was from Harbor Freight.

    I have fixed my oven that was 20 years old (gone now – went to gas), a fridge (giving it an extra 5 years) and I have a 31 y/o water heater. Stuff used to not only last, but it was fixable.

  406. anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    Due to his enormous ego, I don’t think he thought very clearly about how to distinguish his own personal interests from the German national interests, for example he never seems to have thought about ways to save Germany by removing himself from the equation.

    “Enormous ego”? Doesn’t seem like it. Wasn’t Hitler all about subordinating his own individual interests to those of his people? A too high estimate of his own abilities as a war commander is not the same thing as an enormous ego.

    Churchill wrote that in 1944 he had nightmares about Hitler flying to England (the way Hess had done), and telling them: “do whatever you want with me, but please spare my people.”

    A rather telling admission from Churchill that supports the theory that Churchill’s objectives were genocidal. It would also support Hitler’s perception that the German people were facing an existential threat, and that early surrender may not have been safe.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  407. techguy says:

    I work in IT operations and have been outsourced twice, once to HCL. They replaced me with four people who collectively made less than half my wages. The result? It was found by one of the remaining Americans who had to supervise them that their method of dealing with issues was to remove them from the scope of support. I guess I should have formed a consulting firm and offered to not do my job for a few dollar an hour less. Just think of the cost savings.

  408. @SFG

    Practical exercises in games theory:

    Apply the methodology in my other comment to this:
    https://getpocket.com/explore/item/trust-me-in-these-parts-hot-dogs-actually-repel-bears?utm_source=pocket-newtab

    Change to other comment: If you can’t break contact, attack.

    Counterinsurgency

  409. @reiner Tor

    But many people actually voting for him (Trump) believed that he’s convictions were strong, when they weren’t.

    Trump has been blocked to an unprecedented degree by the Federal bureaucracy and judiciary. That has to be taken into account.

    Counterinsurgency

  410. @Lurker

    “the Beatles themselves were of largely Irish origins and one never really detected this chippy vibe from them. Though maybe from John Lennon a bit?”

    The 60s were a different time, the wartime generation were in charge. But Wings sang “Give Ireland Back To The Irish”. John Lennon, for a very messed up boy (mum dumped her husband, kept small John in her bed with her new man, ended up dumping him with her spinster sister), was surprisingly level headed about “the Coming Revolution in Britain” – title of a 1970 book. When criticised as a “sell-out” by a radical Marxist mag, he wasn’t impressed.

    https://beatlebioreview.wordpress.com/2016/07/03/lennon-interview-response-to-black-dwarf/

    British Trotskyism in the 60s-90s had basically four major figures (these are the only Brit based people in Wiki’s list of 14 ‘key Trotskyists’).

    Ted Grant (ne Isaac Blank in South Africa) – ran the Militant entryist organisation, many of whose people were famously booted from the Labour Party by Neil Kinnock.

    Tony Cliff (ne Yigael Gluckstein in Ottoman Palestine) ran the Socialist Workers Party

    Peter Taaffe (ne Birkenhead, the surname is Irish), edited the Militant newspaper until splitting with Grant

    Gerry Healy (born Galway) – ran the Workers Revolutionary Party (people like Vanessa Redgrave were members and funders) which imploded spectacularly amid allegations that Mr Healy had been bonking idealistic young female members who were persuaded that it was their revolutionary duty to service the Great Leader. The accusations were made by his secretary and ‘close personal companion’.

    So two Jewish leaders and two Irish ones. The name changes of the Jewish comrades to rough-hewn British surnames like Grant and Cliff was contemporaneous with Jewish music promoter Larry Parnes changing his proteges birth names to more masculine things like Duffy Power, Vince Eager and Billy Fury.

  411. @reiner Tor

    Cold + big = multiple fronts in the East itself + nightmare logistics

    “The line between disorder and order lies in logistics…”

    – Sun Tzu

  412. Fredrik says:
    @JMcG

    The pilots on the Ethiopian and the 767 pilot have something in common?

    I do believe I read somewhere that the 767 was due to not so much to pilot error as pilot behaviour.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  413. @Achmed E. Newman

    Lots of code has bugs, and they get found out in use and fixed one bit at a time, often causing new bugs.

    Not true of production-quality code. My team and I regularly delivered 10,000+ line applications written in C that generated zero failures in production. ZERO. None.
    But that was back in the 1980’s and my team and I consisted of white male Americans, so there’s that.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  414. @Counterinsurgency

    #Respect for your positive response to criticism.

  415. Anonymous[135] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    Look closely, there must be a indian connection with this fellow too. Perhaps he ate too much curry.

  416. @PiltdownMan

    But… those tiny wings made the Starfighter vulnerable to turbulence, as demonstrated when an ill-considered photo-op went bad, costing us one of only two Valkyries ever built, along with two highly-trained aviators.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_XB-70_Valkyrie#Mid-air_collision

    • Replies: @JMcG
  417. Anonymous[135] • Disclaimer says:
    @Macumazahn

    No failures is not the same as “no bugs”.
    On the related note: Team cohesion (and lack of diversity) greatly helps in software development. A small locally located team of culturally (and racially) similar people who get along well and are more or less equally well trained and great in what they do would be the ideal team and would be hugely productive.

    But in the real world of 21st century America that is not always possible, hence the cottage industry of “methodologies” . The funny thing is, these methodologies fail often and when the succeed, it is often because the team has enough of the above described characteristics, but in the end this is counted as a success for the methodology. But that is another can of worms.

    • Replies: @Macumazahn
  418. AnonAnon says:

    El Segundo is Hughes Aircraft, or what’s left of it, taking up basically 1/2 of that city.

    Ancient history – Hughes Aircraft became Hughes Electronics in the mid-80s when GM bought them. Much of the El Segundo location was the Hughes Space and Comm division of HE, making satellites since the 1960s, until it was bought by Boeing in 2000 and is now the Boeing Satellite Development Center. The other part of that campus of Hughes Electronics, bought by Raytheon in 1997 (now I think it’s United Technologies-Raytheon with the newest merger), which works on space and radar applications. That whole campus takes up a few blocks along the Imperial Highway/105 freeway. The Northrop campus is larger but together they aren’t even close to half of El Segundo.

  419. JMcG says:
    @Fredrik

    The First Officer was an Antiguan named Conrad Aska. Unconfirmed reports are that he panicked for some reason and pushed full forward yoke, causing the plane to dive into the ground. Not a word one from the NTSB yet.

  420. Anonymous[135] • Disclaimer says:
    @Svevlad

    forums such as this found a cheap Indian outsourcing and H1-B connection and went full bore off loading each and every anti-indian programmer gripe people had along with the self congratulatory, in our more whiter time rosy stories. As if tech failures in the bloated and corrupt American aerospace and MIC is unheard of. And also never mind that it turned out to be a non-connection, the failures reported seems to have come from full blooded native teams (not necessarily white).

    The reported problems at Boeing are more to do with the complexities involved in the often dubious practice of global software outsourcing across national, cultural, language and time-zone boundaries. So, the Russians were not incompetent, the out-sourcing processes and the Boeing management who decided to go for it and ran the ops were not up to snuff. But of course, when it comes to the problems with indians it must be all indian incompetence.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  421. JMcG says:
    @Macumazahn

    Turbulence wasn’t listed as a possible cause. Wake vortex from the wings and poor positional awareness were. Usually, high wing loading is less susceptible to turbulence and the F-104 had very high wing loading. Wing loading, very basically, is the aircraft weight divided by the area of its wings.

    • Replies: @Macumazahn
  422. Anonymous[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    forums such as this found a cheap Indian outsourcing and H1-B connection and went full bore off loading each and every anti-indian programmer gripe people had along with the self congratulatory, in our more whiter time rosy stories.

    The fundamental issue is that the United States doesn’t need Indian H1Bs or outsourced programmers. Sorry.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  423. Anonymous[406] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    Not winning is not the same as losing. The failure of Barbarossa to knock out the Russians meant the Germans found themselves in another WWI-style war of attrition, which Hitler knew they couldn’t win.

    However he still hoped to force a stalemate which would leave Germany in a position of strength. Hitler believed this is what would have happened in WWI if the Germans had fought to the bitter end, instead of agreeing to the armistice of 1918.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  424. Anonymous[309] • Disclaimer says:
    @Orangeman

    Right, Spain and England were allies against France in those times. This is how Henry VIII acquired a Spanish wife.

  425. @Anonymous

    No failures is not the same as “no bugs”.

    A distinction without a difference.

  426. @JMcG

    I stand corrected, assuming that wake vortex is not a form of turbulence.
    Would a larger wing have been less vulnerable to the wake vortex?

    • Replies: @JMcG
  427. Anonymous[135] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    I never claimed that it needs them. I think the US does not need any immigrants whatsoever. And it could have done quite well without importing those slaves too. But that is not what this report and the discussion is all about.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  428. HA says:
    @Orangeman

    “Unreasonable to state inexperience with RN practices and or a language barrier was a direct cause of the disaster…16th century outsourcing caused the death of 400 sailors and the RNs finest ship of the day ? Show deftly side stepped it all.”

    If you’re going to make this argument stick, you might want to provide evidence that RN practices were anomalous with respect to how many Spaniards had been pressed into service. Otherwise, I would point out that mutiny or unmanagability wasn’t exactly limited to predominantly foreign crews. Was packing the ship with Spaniards any more likely to cause problems than press-ganging locals, or more generally packing the crews with the unruly types that often found their way into navy life? In the absence of evidence that the RN was unusual with regard to how many Spaniards were among its crews, I’m not surprised the show didn’t make the claim that they were somehow responsible.

    If there’s a story in the news about how a US restaurant burned to the ground, or was badly run, someone might likewise point to the fact that most of the kitchen staff were Hispanic, but it wouldn’t be much of an argument, given that that Hispanics form a majority of the kitchen staff at many or most US restaurants, including the ones that are well run and still standing.

  429. Hunsdon says:
    @nebulafox

    I hasten to point out that I am entirely in agreement with you.

  430. Anonymous[135] • Disclaimer says:
    @DB Cooper

    All the indians were gaming the interview process to get into Google, Microsoft, Apple, Intel, AMD, Amazon, Intuit etc. etc. and a multitude of other run of the mill IT companies, while the others were preparing for these coding contests.

  431. Woo hoo capitalism!!!!!!!!!!!!

    God bless Merica!!!!!!!

  432. JMcG says:
    @Macumazahn

    Sorry, I didn’t mean to sound like a dismissive Internet know it all in my response.
    I suppose wake vortex is in fact a form of turbulence. A large airplane, especially one flying at a high angle of attack, generates what are effectively small tornadoes that propagate from the tips of its wings. They trail the airplane just as as a boat’s wake does, but are of course invisible.
    Because the XB70 was generating the wake, it would have been unaffected by it (Highly simplified). The F104 would certainly have been affected.
    If the F104 had a bigger wing at the same weight, it would have been even more affected.
    The American Airlines plane crash that occurred in NYC shortly after 9/11 is thought to have been caused by an inappropriate response to the wake vortex generated by the airliner that had taken off just before.
    The FAA requires certain minimum distances between departing aircraft to avoid wake turbulence problems, generally four or five miles.
    Again, my apologies for having been rude.

  433. Lurker says:
    @LondonBob

    Quite by chance I just happened upon this article:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7202955/SEBASTIAN-SHAKESPEARE-Mackenzie-Crook-signed-away-rights-Beatles-based-musical-comedy-Yesterday.html

    Boyle slashed the Yesterday script by 20 per cent, persuaded Curtis to change the ending and fought to cast Himesh Patel in the lead as a teacher-turned-singer songwriter.

  434. Anonymous[360] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    I never claimed that it needs them. I think the US does not need any immigrants whatsoever. And it could have done quite well without importing those slaves too. But that is not what this report and the discussion is all about.

    Are you really sure that the undesirability of H1B and outsourced labor is not what is motivating this discussion?

  435. Scalper says:
    @IronCurtain

    But that’s where the problem is and I have not looked into this in great details – whether the reason for fatal crush was due to design flaw, manufacturing or service mistake, pilot or air controller error needs to be carefully separated for this discussion.

    Ah, of course but as it happens you are discussing with an slightly below average IQ brute, clickbaiter and shock seeking shitposter.

    Facts don’t matter here, only feelings and hunches. Just read his last post about how gay liberation caused AIDS and understand that trying to have a reasonable discussion with this brute is basically useless.

  436. @Veracitor

    It’s good to see the beginnings of some actual research into this issue. We will know when the problem is being addressed when the Big 4 (PwC etc) don’t have any employees who are 25 year olds who have ‘cybersecurity’ on their business cards.

    (Not for nuthin: knowing which Big 4 firm did the tech consulting, and when, is statistically meaningful when it comes to looking for exploits that were known at the time. In other words, they go in, not knowing at least one key knowable thing about their job)

  437. @JMcG

    You seem to think that because the pilots made mistakes in a highly stressful situation, it’s not primarily Boeing’s fault. Look, if the plane requires good pilots to operate safely (and even very good pilots might have a very bad day), then Boeing shouldn’t be selling its planes to third world airlines. Badly trained third world pilots are constantly flying even obsolete airplanes without too many hull losses. That a barely introduced new type had two hull losses in a very short time period means that it’s a highly unsafe plane.

    While there’s this theory of first world pilots being all way better, AF 447 shows that there must be some (many?) first world pilots who can make very basic mistakes. Now, I understand that US pilots might be way better trained than French pilots (despite theoretically similar flight hours, for example French pilots might not have flown so much on small planes, and flight hours on fully automated Airbus planes are of questionable value in the rare situation where you have to fly the plane manually in a storm), but I’d bet you dollars to donuts that this plane would eventually be flown to the ground by some pair of American pilots where one had sleep deprivation and the other in the middle of a nasty divorce.

    Yes, the pilots didn’t handle the situation very well, but a plane which regularly throws pilots into such situations is a very bad design. I work in finance, where no human lives are endangered, but you often have to make very quick decisions, and in the heat of moment, when under stress, people make considerably worse decisions than they would while relaxed.

    There’s been no report and no controversy over the 767 flying packages for Amazon that crashed in a marsh in Texas around that time. Do you wonder why?

    I don’t. The 767 is well-known to be a safe plane (it’s not a barely introduced model with only a few hundreds flying, rather there are decades of data showing it to be a safe plane, with most hull losses occurring due to things like terrorism or pilot error only (i.e. not a case where some automatic system actively tried to fly the plane to the ground).

    (Also, no one died, which naturally generates less noise.)

    • Replies: @JMcG
  438. @anon

    As an example, Hitler refused to have a child (despite his longtime girlfriend being desperate to have children) because he said that the child of a genius would always have difficulties. I don’t think you can very much argue that he didn’t have an enormous ego.

    A too high estimate of his own abilities as a war commander

    He also believed himself to be the perfect peacetime leader, and I wonder if you could supply us with an example of any area where he didn’t believe that his own judgment was perfect. Did he think that others had better judgment than himself about the value of a painting, a piece of music, architecture, engineering (what weapon to develop and into what direction), once he’s already made a judgment? Is there an example of someone convincing him that he was wrong about something?

    He obviously believed his own propaganda about himself being some kind of perfect genius with a divine mission.

    Churchill wrote that in 1944 he had nightmares about Hitler flying to England (the way Hess had done), and telling them: “do whatever you want with me, but please spare my people.”

    A rather telling admission from Churchill that supports the theory that Churchill’s objectives were genocidal.

    It’s not such an admission at all. Churchill wanted to dismember Germany, to permanently destroy the German threat to British supremacy (and he was willing to reduce the UK to a secondary role behind the US while doing so – being half American, he clearly preferred being second behind the US than behind Germany). For that, he needed Germany to be fully occupied and thoroughly defeated.

    However, he was aghast at Stalin’s suggestion to shoot tens of thousands of German officers, and he also didn’t support Morgenthau’s plan.

    It would also support Hitler’s perception that the German people were facing an existential threat, and that early surrender may not have been safe.

    Well, if early surrender was unsafe, imagine how much less safe it was to fight to the last bullet. Had Germany capitulated in 1943, as opposed to May 1945, there would have been two years less of accumulated hatred against it, and since German troops would only slowly withdraw from areas occupied by them, it would have made any genocidal plans that much harder to accomplish. You know, it’s politically always easiest to get away with ethnic cleansing during or in the direct aftermath of a war. Several months later… not so much.

  439. @Anonymous

    There was no rational hope for a stalemate by the end of January, 1945. There was very little hope of it after July, 1944. I once read somewhere that over half of all the Germans killed in WW2 were killed after the July 20, 1944 attempt at Hitler’s life.

    So maybe there was a rational case to try their luck with destroying the Western invasion forces in France. (Though since they were unable to destroy the Western forces in Italy, why was it exactly that likely to destroy them in France..?) Maybe until December, 1944, when the Germans tried their luck one last time in the Battle of the Bulge. In January, 1945, they lost Silesia, their last relatively intact industrial area not yet destroyed by bombing, and by that time, it was already clear they had no hope of any successful large-scale offensive action anywhere even with Silesia. What German purpose exactly did Hitler serve by fighting on? It’s obvious he fought on because he himself personally had nothing to lose at all. He didn’t consider his own people that much any longer.

  440. Anonymous[307] • Disclaimer says:
    @JMcG

    Yes, cognitive overload. I know how that feels.

    I don’t fly any planes but I do play some pretty chaotic RTS games. Sometimes there’s so much going on in the game that I just freeze. I’ll never be a top rank player because of this. I just can’t think quickly enough. *shrug*

  441. JMcG says:
    @reiner Tor

    Three people died. The crew counts too. Blame seems to be accruing on the first Officer, an Antiguan. Leaks from the investigation indicate that his completely inappropriate application of full forward yoke in IMC drove the plane into the ground. We might never get a CVR transcript because it’s bad for the agenda. Only by the grace of God did the plane hit a swamp and not a residential area.
    Again, I’m not absolving Boeing of blame in any way, but pilots are paid to fly planes and handle the unexpected. When the Trim system acts up, turn it off and fly. It’s really that simple. Everything else is obfuscation. And it’s working.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Anonymous
  442. E e says:
    @Flip

    Most European royalty ended up being predominantly German in the end.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  443. Anonymous[140] • Disclaimer says:
    @E e

    As I recall, the AF 447 crash was due to a combination of pilot error and poor aircraft design

    (1) the novice pilot flew the plane into a storm cloud while the captain was out of the cockpit. This was the first pilot error.

    (2) the aircraft airspeed sensor iced up and ceased to function. This was the first design failure.

    (3) the novice pilot flew the plane into the ground without the captain noticing. This was the second error and second design failure. (It could not have happened if the aircraft had a traditional control yoke.)

    So two pilot errors and two design failures.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  444. @Anonymous

    In my mind (I’m not a pilot and know next to nothing of flying, except of course being interested on a lay level in air catastrophes), (3) was the most important thing. Re: design, it seemed insane that the two pilots could make opposite movements with their joysticks, and the system would simply average them out, without alerting them to the fact that at least one of them was doing something stupid. Re: pilot error, it also seemed insane that the junior pilot started to pull the joystick to lift the nose of the aircraft. As I wrote, I know nothing of aircraft, but even I know that it could be very dangerous. Then the captain arrived in the cockpit, and they told the junior pilot not to pull on the joystick, but he kept doing that (albeit maybe with less intensity). So, the combination of the bad joystick design and the idiocy of the pilot (under stressful conditions; he was likely an intelligent guy) were the two big contributing factors.

    Yes, the airplane shouldn’t be flown into a storm cloud (I read somewhere that it’s sometimes difficult to avoid around the Equator), and the sensors prone to icing should be replaced with a better design (I think Airbus was already working on it, but it was not deemed a critical failure, as indeed it was not), but (3) was absolutely crazy stuff. (They still needed to happen in combination.)

    (There were other minor issues, like the stall warning, which paradoxically only started to come whenever the plane was moving towards the normal position…)

  445. @JMcG

    Yes, I meant no passengers died. (One person not on board died, which is very bad.) Anyway, I didn’t say that was not a pilot error.

    pilots are paid to fly planes and handle the unexpected

    Still it’s interesting that third world pilots managed to handle the unexpected on other models, for example on older 737 models. Which points to this situation being a little worse than most unexpected situations. Either less expected, or just less forgiving of errors. Basically the plane occasionally threw the pilots into a difficult flight exam, while full of passengers. And it was (or should have been) already obvious after the first crash.

    As the example of AF 447 shows, even first world pilots occasionally badly screw up (I cannot fully blame the junior pilot, because the captain should’ve been in his seat as soon as they entered the storm cloud, or at least after he arrived in the cockpit). My understanding is that American pilots are better trained, but I’m pretty sure that eventually there would’ve crashed the plane – American pilots might also have very bad days, and all it takes is for both pilots to have a very bad day.

  446. Anonymous[167] • Disclaimer says:
    @JMcG

    We might never get a CVR transcript because it’s bad for the agenda.

    What is the agenda?

  447. MBlanc46 says:
    @trelane

    Which would be one more (significant) step in being done with America.

  448. MBlanc46 says:
    @Anon

    It’s no longer our government.

  449. MBlanc46 says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    As I recall, at the time the relocation was being decided, Chicago (United HQ) and Dallas (American HQ) were on the shortlist. Don’t remember if StL or other cities, were seriously considered.

    • Replies: @Flip
  450. MBlanc46 says:
    @AnotherDad

    I’ve used up my Agree for this hour, so I have to say “Agree”.

  451. Flip says:
    @MBlanc46

    I recall the competition as among Chicago, Dallas, and Atlanta. I remember thinking that they would pick Chicago as being more culturally similar to Seattle and that’s what happened.

  452. @Tired of Not Winning

    Yes, the Hakka CHinese from Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore tend to speak more fluent English because of the British presence, and because of the need to adapt to a common language.

  453. @DB Cooper

    Bruh you do know that one can do the same for any other ethnic group.I seriously thought you’re gonna list project that failed due to outsourcing which is valid but here you’re talking about white collar crimes and stock fall due to Indian at management level which is absurd since white collar crime is something Jews do a lot as well.
    This is what you call anecdotal evidence.Give me the stats

  454. @Steve Sailer

    Rightfully so because this is a graph of engineer in developing country,result are as predicted .Kinda suprising that elite Indian do better than elite Russian.Wtf is going on in Russia especially with the large IQ and wealth gap between these two countries
    https://www.pnas.org/content/116/14/6732

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