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4th Los Alamos Spy Finally Outed
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From the Seattle Times:

Historians Root Out Fourth Atomic Spy in the Manhattan Project
Nov. 23, 2019 at 9:41 am Updated Nov. 23, 2019 at 12:23 pm
By WIlliam J. Broad
The New York Times

The world’s first atomic bomb was detonated on July 16, 1945, in the New Mexican desert — a result of a highly secretive effort code-named the Manhattan Project, whose nerve center lay nearby in Los Alamos. Just 49 months later, the Soviets detonated a nearly identical device in Central Asia, and Washington’s monopoly on nuclear arms abruptly ended.

How Moscow managed to make such quick progress has long fascinated scientists, federal agents and historians. The work of three spies eventually came to light. Now atomic sleuths have found a fourth. Oscar Seborer, like the other spies, worked at wartime Los Alamos, a remote site ringed by tall fences and armed guards. Seborer nonetheless managed to pass sensitive information about the design of the U.S. weapon to Soviet agents.

The spy fled to the Soviet Union some years later; the FBI eventually learned of his defection and the espionage, but kept the information secret.

His role “has remained hidden for 70 years,” write Harvey Klehr and John Earl Haynes in the current issue of Studies in Intelligence, the CIA’s in-house journal; their article is titled “On the Trail of a Fourth Soviet Spy at Los Alamos.” In separate interviews, the sleuths said they were still gathering clues regarding the exact character of Seborer’s atomic thefts.

Klehr is an emeritus professor of politics and history at Emory University, and Haynes is a former historian for the Library of Congress. Both have written books on Soviet spies and American communism, often together. Their tale has an eerie resonance at a time when Russian intelligence agencies are again at the center of American life.

I thought the latest New York Times line was that 1619 was at the center of American life, while we’re supposed to forget about RussiaGate and go gaga over UkraineGate?

Seborer was born in New York City in 1921, the youngest child of Jewish immigrants from Poland, according to the study by Klehr and Haynes and a CIA document they cited. He attended City College of New York, studied electrical engineering and worked at Los Alamos from 1944 to 1946.

In July 1945, the study reported, he was “part of a unit monitoring seismological effects” of the first detonation of the atomic device. His Soviet code name was Godsend, and he came to Los Alamos from a family of spies.

In 1951, Seborer fled the United States with his older brother Stuart, as well as his brother’s wife and mother-in-law, and defected to the Soviet Union, where, in 1964, he received the Order of the Red Star, a prestigious military award.

The identities of the other three Los Alamos spies have long been known. Klaus Fuchs, a physicist, was arrested in early 1950, shortly after the first Soviet detonation.

Klaus Fuchs was the son of a Lutheran theologian at the U. of Leipzig. He joined the Communist Party in Germany in 1932. He was a close friend at Los Alamos of Richard Feynman. He served 9 years in a British prison. Some of the spying on the American bomb project he did was for Britain as well as the Soviet Union, so maybe they weren’t all that mad at him?

His testimony led to a second spy, David Greenglass, a machinist, who was also taken into custody.

David Greenglass was the brother of Ethel Rosenberg. The Rosenbergs were the most notorious atomic spies, but they seem like blue collar nobodies compared to Fuchs and Ted Hall.

Not until 1995 was the third spy, Theodore Hall, the youngest physicist at Los Alamos, identified publicly. By then he had moved to England and was never convicted of espionage.

Hall was a teenage physics prodigy. He was a friend of Freeman Dyson. His older brother Ed Hall was an Air Force colonel who was a major contributor to the U.S. ICBM program.

Seborer sounds like he fell between Fuchs/Hall and Greenglass in technical expertise, but his story is murky. This article says the FBI questioned him in 1951 but didn’t want to put him on trial and have to reveal the Venona transcripts.

Seborer, Hall, and Greenglass were of Jewish ancestry, Fuchs of Protestant ancestry.

But this Seborer story seems a little fishy to me. There’s a market for Los Alamos stories, but this spy story stayed hushed up for 75 years. Maybe somebody on the US side blundered badly (e.g., thought, say, they’d turned Seborer into a double agent) and then covered it up?

The success of Soviet espionage correlated with the level of toleration of the Communist Party USA. The CPUSA was an excellent recruiting tool for Soviet espionage until the beginning of the Red Scare, after which Soviet espionage efforts fell off. The KGB’s New York spymaster Rudolf Abel, played by Mark Rylance in Spielberg’s Bridge of Spies, was busy running his network in the 1940s, but spent much of the McCarthyite 1950s instead getting pretty good at his cover story of being a painter.

 
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  1. Altai [AKA "Altai_4"] says:

    His role “has remained hidden for 70 years,”

    In 1951, Seborer fled the United States with his older brother Stuart, as well as his brother’s wife and mother-in-law, and defected to the Soviet Union, where, in 1964, he received the Order of the Red Star, a prestigious military award.

    How many people who worked at Los Alamos defected to the Soviet Union and were awarded medals? How was his involvement kept secret by the CIA for 70 years? Were people just not interested?

  2. @Altai

    The Ted Hall story is pretty weird too. Maybe Ted’s brother Ed being such an important contributor to the Cold War effort helped Ted out?

    • Replies: @bomag
    , @Lot
  3. In 1951, Seborer fled the United States with his older brother Stuart

    Stuart?

    I knew of Donald Tusk’s grandmother visiting Scotland, and of the Machlejd (MacLeod) and other families, but the Scottish-Polish links must have been pretty strong to have influenced Jews, too.

    On the other hand, there is that attraction to names like Irving and Gordon…

    https://www.scotland.org/features/scotland-and-poland

    But hey, Poland now has her own tartan:

    https://www.tartanregister.gov.uk/tartanDetails?ref=5852

    And there’s this guy:

  4. syonredux says:

    The success of Soviet espionage correlated with the level of toleration of the Communist Party USA. The CPUSA was an excellent recruiting tool for Soviet espionage until the beginning of the Red Scare, after which Soviet espionage efforts fell off. The KGB’s New York spymaster Rudolf Abel, played by Mark Rylance in Spielberg’s Bridge of Spies, was busy running his network in the 1940s, but spent much of the McCarthyite 1950s instead getting pretty good at his cover story of being a painter.

    Leftists have always tried to dismiss McCarthy as a paranoid loon, but his concerns were largely justified. The level of penetration that the USSR achieved in the ’40s staggers the imagination: Alger Hiss, Harry Dexter White, Kim Philby, Donald Maclean, Klaus Fuchs, Ted Hall…..

  5. @Altai

    It’s the CCNY connection that I find particularly common, and pernicious.

    Russian intelligence agencies are again at the center of American life.

    Yep, that’s our NYT–their finger on the pulse as always.

  6. Bill P says:

    By way of contrast, the breadth of current Chinese espionage is so great that I don’t think another red scare is possible, because it would implicate too many people. I’m not sure it can even be called espionage. It’s more like a technological/industrial version of the major selloff of Russian assets by oligarchs that occurred under Yeltsin.

  7. The success of Soviet espionage correlated with the level of toleration of the Communist Party USA. The CPUSA was an excellent recruiting tool for Soviet espionage until the beginning of the Red Scare, after which Soviet espionage efforts fell off.

    So the “Red Scare”, which we were all taught to be ashamed of, probably kept the USSR from getting a truly dangerous advantage.

    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
    , @Kronos
  8. Anon[334] • Disclaimer says:

    He was monitoring seismic effects? How many secrets could such a person know?

    That’s like someone at the deli who supplied the Skunk Works with pastrami sandwiches defecting to the USSR. “I noticed on Thursdays the order always feel by 10 percent–but three sandwiches had extra mustard, and one Reubin was ordered!”

  9. Anonymous[427] • Disclaimer says:

    OT:

    https://gen.medium.com/big-calculator-how-texas-instruments-monopolized-math-class-67ee165045dc

    Big Calculator: How Texas Instruments Monopolized Math Class

    These $100 calculators have been required in classrooms for more than twenty years, as students and teachers still struggle to afford them

    More bleating for more money in education instead of coming up with a generic standard calculator, getting it made for a lot less and writing a textbook around it instead of the TI.

  10. This article says the FBI questioned him in 1951 but didn’t want to put him on trial and have to reveal the Venona transcripts.

    His wife was in a documentary on PBS several years back, and completely unapologetic. Like Steve has written about many times, I have to wonder if protecting the source of the information (Venona (sp)) is worth punishing and making an example of a bad guy.

    Young people reading this should note, that as bad as things may seem right now, we had actual communists working in the gov’t and for the USSR.

    *The Red Scare was before my time, but basically McCarthy was right. May have been a self-aggrandizing asshole, but he was right.

  11. @Bill P

    If a tenth of percent of what I’ve read is correct, it’s abomidable.

    I just have to wonder if the Chinese spies do it to keep their family safe back home, or do they really believe the bullshit? Reading first-hand letters from vets who delivered military supplies to Russia during WWII, I have to believe that many actually do believe they are doing the Lord’s work, as they understand it.

  12. Kronos says:

    Klaus Fuchs was the son of a Lutheran theologian at the U. of Leipzig. He joined the Communist Party in Germany in 1932. He was a close friend at Los Alamos of Richard Feynman.

    I always kinda worried (still do) that Feynman was involved. In his book “Surely to Must be Joking Mr. Feynman,” he played a prank by hiding all the atomic research data (a few filing cabinets) from a another scientist. The “prankee” nearly had a heart attack. But Feynman describes how easy and available that critical information was. I vaguely recall him commenting on one of the Soviet Atomic spies. (Maybe Feynman borrowed his car? I remember a car was involved.)

  13. @Bill P

    Just used up my 3rd [AGREE], Bill, so I’ll reply. That last sentence is a very good way to put it. I don’t know how it was during this process in 1990s Russian, but here, nobody in government or at the universities that even tries to stop the hiring of millions of foreign nationals. They are mostly decent people, just doing the jobs that Americans who gave up on grad school because “no jobs” won’t do, but 1 in a hundred or so adds up to a lot of lost technological secrets.

    • Agree: ic1000
  14. I read Wedge recently and the penetration discussed just in the context of FBI/CIA relations is staggering. Pretty sure the State Department has been in the thrall of communists/leftists for all of living memory.

  15. Dtbb says:
    @Anonymous

    Unless math has changed in the last 30 years, I went all the way through differential equations with a $10 scientific calculator. It makes no sense that graphing calculators are mandatory. The concepts themselves are more important.

    • Agree: bomag, Thea, Achmed E. Newman
  16. @South Texas Guy

    I just have to wonder if the Chinese spies do it to keep their family safe back home, or do they really believe the bullshit?

    The former is not at all the case, as this is not your Daddy’s Red China. The latter is likely not true either, but I don’t know what you mean by “the bullshit” I think they want China to do well but aren’t like your mid-20th-century Americans with starry eyes about Soviet Communism either.

    I’m of the opinion they do it for some decent money, that’s all. They don’t care how damaging what they do is to the nation that educated them, employs them, feeds their families, and has their kids in great schools paid for by property taxes on their regular American neighbors’ houses. They just could use the extra money, you know? Scum like this can do as much damage as a few highly-ideological folks.

  17. @Reg Cæsar

    That’s an ugly-ass tartan. Too busy – a bit like the Hay.

    Sinclair is about as garish a red as I can tolerate – although sadly Sinclair Hunting Ancient is reminiscent of girl’s-school skirts. Sinclair is ‘my’ tartan by dint of the fact that my mother lodge – St Clair #43 UGLV – has an arrangement with the SInclair family (as does St Clair Lodge #349 PGLE).

    Frail man, how like the meteor’s blaze !
    How evanescent are thy days!
    Protracted to its longest date,
    How short the time indulged by Fate!
    Nor force Death’s potent arm can brave,
    Nor Wisdom’s self elude the grave.

    Where e’er our various journies tend,
    To this we soon or late descend.
    Thither from mortal eye retired,
    Though oft beheld and still admired,
    St.Clair to dust its claim resigns.
    And in sublimer regions shines.

    Let us, whom ties fraternal bind,
    Like St.Clair live, like St.Clair die,
    Beyond the rest of human kind,
    Then join the Eternal Lodge on high.

    Esoteric nonsense, but fun in the South.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
  18. syonredux says:

    Facebook has banned two white nationalists groups from the social media platform following a report by The Guradian that called out the firm for not taking action.

    A Facebook spokesperson said that the company has now determined that Red Ice TV and Affirmative Right violate its policy against ‘organized hate’.

    This recent ban will include all pages related to Red Ice TV hosts Lana Lokteff and Henrik Palmgren and their interest radio show, Radio3Fourteen.

    However, today the social media firm announced it has banned two of the groups, but VDare still remains online, but Facebook said ‘it is still under review’.

    Facebook did note in the March ban that posts were no longer allowed to include statements like ‘I am a proud white nationalist’ and ‘Immigration is tearing this country apart; white separatism is the only answer’ to remain on its site.

    Just curious, but is stating ‘I am a proud Black nationalist” kosher? What about ” Immigration is tearing this country apart; Black separatism is the only answer?”

    It drew fierce backlash from civil rights advocates who argued that white supremacy is indistinguishable from white nationalism and white separatism.

    Now, Facebook is moving to ban all posts promoting these three ideologies from its platform, but has still let some groups keep a presence on the site for reasons unknown.

    Again, just curious, but are posts promoting Black supremacy, Black nationalism, and Black separatism OK? What about Latinx supremacy, Latinx nationalism, and Latinx separatism?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-7729141/Facebook-FINALLY-bans-two-white-nationalists-groups-called-recent-report.html

    • Replies: @El Dato
    , @Anonymous
  19. @RichardTaylor

    So the “Red Scare”, which we were all taught to be ashamed of, probably kept the USSR from getting a truly dangerous advantage.

    Probably not – the USSR was nowhere near as expansionist as they could have been.

    They also had the problem of trying to ‘digest’ the 300 million poor bastards that Stalin was gifted by the inbred vermin Churchill and FDR.

    Soviet global expansion plans are as fictional as Third Reich global expansion plans. By the 1950s the leadership of the USSR knew that the system they represented was not capable of competing with relatively-freer economies – so they ate their society’s seed corn in a bid to pull off ‘big ticket’ items (Gagarin; Sputnik).

    Eventually, the Afghans showed how impotent the Soviets were… just as they have shown the impotence of “the greatest fighting force in the history of the wooooorld, Cosell!”

    • Agree: JMcG
  20. @Anon

    It’s all about the ‘mosaic’ approach: the guy from the deli might see one of the physics guys – known to be married – making goo-goo eyes at a lady colleague (or better yet, a male colleague), which gives other assets a potential vector to gain access to the googoo-eyed guy.

    Like everything ever invented by government, it’s a woefully inefficient approach – but every government did it. Right up until the mid-90s, universities across the West had intelligence dickheads from all sides sniffing around promising students (and particularly student politicians and members of student political movements).

    There’s an old saw in various circles, that any plot worth the name contains about 30% infiltrators.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  21. Kronos says:
    @RichardTaylor

    Yes, and McCarthy was one hell of a hero.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  22. jon says:

    Seborer, Hall, and Greenglass were of Jewish ancestry, Fuchs of Protestant ancestry.

    And such is the danger of stereotyping – if your bias has you focusing on jews, you’d only get it right about 75% of the time!

    • LOL: Mr McKenna
  23. @Reg Cæsar

    Some prominent American Jews have Scottish first names, e.g. Jeffrey Epstein, Irving Kristol, Jeffrey Sachs, Norman Podhoretz.

  24. Anon[334] • Disclaimer says:

    Tomorrow’s headline in the New York Times:

    “4th Los Alamos spy implicated in Emmitt Till murder.”

    • LOL: Hibernian
  25. El Dato says:

    Their tale has an eerie resonance

    The Lovecraftian chtonic undercurrents behind the eldritch energies of the Age of Trump (Motto: “Ruguous, yet Squamuous”) show themselves again.

    Btw, this one is pretty good too:

    • Replies: @Ian Smith
    , @Jack D
  26. El Dato says:
    @syonredux

    Again, just curious, but are posts promoting Black supremacy, Black nationalism, and Black separatism OK? What about Latinx supremacy, Latinx nationalism, and Latinx separatism?

    You already know the answer, gringo.

    a report by The Guradian that called out the firm for not taking action.

    Why are “reports” by the leftist rag and Deep State outlet “The Grauniad” matters of practically papal power? The recent op-ed after Sweden dropped the rape case against Assange was glorious. Suddenly “Don’t extradite him to the US!!” after shitting on him for about a decade.

  27. @South Texas Guy

    That’s the thing, though. So much of politics is personality. Had McCarthy been less strident and more diplomatic (same thing, really) he would likely have been more effective and less readily dismissed by ‘Right-Thinking People’.

    Personality. Fatal flaw for our current president, for example. His more ardent fans will insist that he wouldn’t be where he is without it, but I’d note that where he is is being impeached in Congress.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    , @bomag
  28. Sounds like the setup to a bad joke: Everone who knows Jews and Lutherans knows that a Lutheran mother can give a Jewish mother a run for her money in the guilt department, but Mrs. Seborer must have really been on her game with the FBI.

  29. @Jon Halpenny

    Scots were hugely prestigious in the U.S. in the early 20th Century. A lot of the popularity of golf in the U.S. is owning to the cultural prestige of Scots 100 years ago.

    Mark Twain spent a year in Vienna around 1900 and wrote an admiring article on Jews and their knack for business. (Twain was pro-capitalist and wanted to be a robber baron himself.) His big joke was that of course the only place Jews aren’t outcompeting the locals in business was in Scotland.

  30. @South Texas Guy

    Young people reading this should note, that as bad as things may seem right now, we had actual communists working in the gov’t and for the USSR.

    We still do.

    • Agree: Hibernian
    • Replies: @TheJester
  31. @Jon Halpenny

    My vague impression is that Geoffrey is a gentile name in the U.S., while Jews are more likely to be named Jeffrey. The Jewish kid who lived across the street from me in the 1960s was Jeff S.

    My guess is that Old Testament names beginning with J like Joshua and Jonathan are pretty Jewish, although not New Testament J names like Joseph and James. But in general, Jews tend to like giving their sons names beginning with J, kind of like D is a popular initial for boy’s names among blacks.

  32. El Dato says:

    OT but fun:

    Googlers fired after tracking colleagues working on US border cop projects.

    The four were fired after an investigation [NYT: “Google Fires 4 Workers Active in Labor Organizing”] by the web giant revealed they had tracked fellow Googlers suspected of working on projects they didn’t like – namely, an in-development cloud services for US border cops.

    The four were accused of leaking copies of corporate emails and other inside information about their targets to the outside world, a move the now-ex-employees say is a lie: they deny any wrongdoing.

    The fired Googlers are otherwise unrepentant, and claim they were axed in retaliation for speaking out. They argued on Monday that a section of the corporation’s code of conduct that says Google employees should “speak up if you see something that you think isn’t right” provided ample justification for tracking and scrutinizing their colleagues.

    They also point to the fact that they were not told specifically that they couldn’t read all the documents produced by certain individuals. Nor were they told they couldn’t set up a system that alerted them whenever someone they were targeting added anything to their internal calendar – which, apparently, included everything from one-to-one meetings to medical appointments and family events.

    Hard at work looking for fascists, it would seem.

  33. @Kronos

    I remember a car was involved.

    I vaguely remember Feynman claiming he viewed the first A-Bomb test using a car or truck window’s glass to protect his eyes from the UV of the blast rather than use the dark protective lenses issued to him. What a mensch.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  34. @The Alarmist

    In Feynman’s main book, he mentions that he borrowed a car from Klaus Fuchs to visit his young dying wife in the hospital.

    • Replies: @Kronos
  35. Sean says:

    Fuchs was important in actually making the thing work, he made a breakthrough suggestion that was improved upon. He was far more than someone who had access to ideas of Feynman’s.

    • Replies: @cthulhu
  36. IHTG says:
    @Steve Sailer

    not New Testament J names like Joseph

    What.

  37. LondonBob says:
    @syonredux

    You could say the level of Soviet penetration of the US in the forties parallels the level of Israeli penetration today.

  38. LondonBob says:
    @Kratoklastes

    By the late thirties the Soviet Union had by far the largest military and had occupied and annexed a number of neighbouring territories.

  39. @Bill P

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/nov/25/uk-academias-links-to-chinese-defence-firms-harmful-for-national-security

    It looks as if we are heading towards wholly-owned subsidiary status. Imperial is probably our top science uni alongside Cambridge – certainly the grades needed for entry would also get you in there. Manchester’s pretty good too.

    The UK labs mentioned in the report include the Sino-British Joint Advanced Laboratory on Control System Technology at the University of Manchester and Imperial College London’s Advanced Structure Manufacturing Technology Laboratory. Both are partnerships with the China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology, which develops space launch vehicles and intercontinental ballistic missiles.

    Other labs highlighted in the report are based at the University of Strathclyde and the University of Nottingham. Research at the Strathclyde lab includes autonomous rendezvous systems for satellites, which could be used for docking, but also for anti-satellite missions.

    Beyond their industrial collaborations with Chinese defence firms, dozens of British universities also work with Chinese military institutes, such as the PLA’s Army Engineering University and the National University of Defence Technology. The work ranges from hi-tech materials and design optimisation strategies to 5G networks and artificial intelligence programmes that can identify people in low-resolution surveillance footage, and control swarms of robotic vehicles on military patrols.

  40. TheJester says:
    @The Alarmist

    If you consider “progressives” as “communists with American characteristics”, then the Federal Government and many state governments are riddled with communists.

  41. Neoconned says:
    @syonredux

    I was under the impression the last few yrs that the VENONA project pretty much vindicated McCarthy’s general thesis…..though I will say some of those he fingered as commies like generals obviously weren’t….

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    , @Art Deco
  42. Leslie Groves had his work cut out for him. He was well aware that to make the damn thing, he had to employ leftist foreigners, leftist bagels, leftist foreign bagels, or homegrown Communists and fellow travelers. I think there was a feeling among the counterintelligence goobers watching the nerds that their job was not keeping everything from Stalin, but managing how much he knew.

    Of course, the assortment of nerds headed by Oppenheimer (a homegrown bagel Communist) were positively ecstatic about the project when they were recruited, because they wanted to nuke Berlin and save Moscow. When it becomes clear that the United States could use this weapon against the Soviets (and were going to use it against Japan) instead, then they rediscovered their situational pacifism.

    • Agree: Jim Don Bob
  43. Hibernian says:
    @Kratoklastes

    Agree with your first paragraph explaining that it’s a real thing; disagree with your soft pedaling in the second. People who have provided low level information can be blackmailed into going farther. Also low level information is valuable in itself if you have a lot of it and talented analysts to analyze it.

    • Agree: ic1000
    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
  44. @Anon

    These days they should call it Schmuck Works.

    Dont ask me how I know this.

  45. @Anonymous

    Students are far better off doing math by hand to develop their feel for it. Punching buttons does not develop the neural pathways.

    Technology can be brought in when the students are faced with tedious and repetitive calculations and enormous datasets.

  46. Hibernian says:
    @Mr McKenna

    “Had McCarthy been less strident and more diplomatic (same thing, really) he would likely have been more effective and less readily dismissed by ‘Right-Thinking People’.”

    The less strident/more diplomatic McCarthy went buy the name “Richard M. Nixon.” A lot of good his smoother approach did him.

    • Agree: Abe
    • Replies: @Hibernian
    , @Jack D
    , @Anonymous
    , @Abe
  47. Neoconned says:
    @Bill P

    You know some call that the liquidation of Russia’s corporate infrastructure…..for years I’ve been having the same thought cross my mind about what’s going on here in the USA.

    The entire cheap-debt financed stock market boom was and is just a way to indebten healthy or viable American companies and then literally sell off the assets for the sole benefit of corporate oligarchs.

    CEOs and other higher level American corporate officers are using low interest rates on the corporate bond market to do massive bond debt dumps.

    They then take the cash from the debt sales and sell THEIR OWN STOCK THEY’RE PAID WITH BACK TO THE CORPORATION….

    This allows them to cash out of their stock to the tune of tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of dollars….

    The corporate officers then haul ass with the money from their debt financed stock pump and then the once healthy company is left a debt laden husk of its former self

    This is called “stock buyback” & it is used by corporate types to use cheAP debt from thw corporate bond market to artificially pump up stock prices

    Neat scheme but it can only go so far before debt levels get too high and stock market growth grinds to a halt.

  48. Hibernian says:
    @Hibernian

    Apologize for the bold. I ment to blockquote; it appears I can’t correct the bold.

  49. @Steve Sailer

    My guess is that Old Testament names beginning with J like Joshua and Jonathan are pretty Jewish, although not New Testament J names like Joseph and James.

    Joseph,(as in Egypt and Pharaoh) is as Old Testament a name as there is. It is very common among Jews – I have at least a dozen in my extended family.

    • Agree: Jack D
    • Replies: @Dissident
  50. JMcG says:
    @syonredux

    You’re not kidding. Of all the machinists in America in 1942, how the hell does a commie like David Greenglass get hired at Los Alamos? There has to be a really huge story waiting to get out that would make sense of this the way the Ultra revelations made sense of the Secomd World War.

  51. ic1000 says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Small sample size (n=1), but I developed a work friendship with a capable, hard-working, credentialed Green Card holder in a STEM field. (This was in the pre-Xu era.) In lunchtime conversations it became clear he was anti-communist, and held Marxist-Leninist thought in contempt as a result of mandatory grad school classes. He was also patriotic, intensely so.

    That is, allegiance to China. The U.S. was just the place that he lived and raised his family.

    I’d be curious to learn what his then-young son has grown up to believe.

    • Replies: @bomag
    , @Anonymous
  52. bomag says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Also, Hall was a top notch physicist. Maybe TPTB figured he had significant value for his research efforts.

  53. ic1000 says:

    > But this Seborer story seems a little fishy to me.

    Haynes and Klehr are first rate historians and authors. Their book on Venona is excellent. My prior is that they would not Bowdlerize Seberer’s story.

  54. Ian Smith says:
    @El Dato

    https://spartacus-educational.com/Alfred_Sarant.htm

    Barr recruited Alfred Sarant, the only known member of the Rosenberg ring who was neither Jewish nor a graduate of City College of New York.

  55. Mr. Anon says:
    @Anon

    He was monitoring seismic effects? How many secrets could such a person know?

    Potentially, lots. Not only from his own work, but from whatever he might have picked up talking to people in the cafeteria.

  56. dearieme says:

    Max Hastings once said (in a fit of exasperation, I assume) that he was fed up of hearing about the Cambridge Five. How about the Berkeley and Washington Five Hundred?

    And so I grinned at the idea of only a Los Alamos Four.

  57. @Steve Sailer

    His big joke was that of course the only place Jews aren’t outcompeting the locals in business was in Scotland

    Mr Steve, you’re absolutely right. Jews in Scotland are few in number and are declining. If Scots Jews enter the professions, it’s usually Law or Optometry. The former is not very lucrative, as Scotland does not have a large Commercial Law division, unlike England. The latter is probably (((self explanatory))).
    I have never heard of a Jew being a director of a Scots bank or financial institution. Likewise with accountancy. ICAS is the world’s first body representing chartered accountants and is still very active and Scottish.
    As I get older, I start to believe much more in all that stuff about Scots, Freemasonry and accountants. Even allowing for intermarriage, Jews in Scotland are now a third or less of what they were in 1900. It seems, like the Mafia, if they can’t control the turf, they get out.

  58. @Steve Sailer

    I used to believe that Jews having Scottish names came about from Jews meeting Scottish-Americans in Freemason lodges. And in some cases naming their sons after the Scots they met.

    I’ve absolutely no evidence for that, though.

    • Replies: @JMcG
  59. Jack D says:

    The KGB’s New York spymaster Rudolf Abel, played by Mark Rylance in Spielberg’s Bridge of Spies, was busy running his network in the 1940s, but spent much of the McCarthyite 1950s instead getting pretty good at his cover story of being a painter.

    All of Abel’s careful work was undone when Moscow sent him the drunken Finn, Reino Häyhänen, as his #2. When Abel went home to Moscow for some R&R, Reino blew their entire budget on alcohol and prostitutes. He called attention to himself by getting into loud drunken arguments with his wife for which the police were called. He had been given a special hollow nickel coin in which coded microfilm was inserted and he spent it on a newspaper. The newsboy realized that there was something funky with the nickel and it ended up in the hands of the FBI. Finally, when his bosses had had enough, they recalled him to Moscow. Reino realized what was waiting for him there so he defected to the US Embassy in Paris on the way back home and turned over Abel and his network. OTOH, Häyhänen ended up on “our side” and Abel was an enemy spy, but you have to have some sympathy for Abel as the boss with the employee from hell. Häyhänen died in an accident on the PA Turnpike in 1961. Some people say that his death was suspicious but my guess is that he was just drunk as usual.

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
    , @LondonBob
  60. peterike says:
    @South Texas Guy

    I just have to wonder if the Chinese spies do it to keep their family safe back home, or do they really believe the bullshit?

    Asians are born corrupt. Life is merely a process of seeking how best to monetize corruption, since you have zero internal boundaries about it. Letting even one Chinese or Indian national into our nation for school or work is patently insane. Yet we allow countless millions.

  61. bomag says:
    @ic1000

    He was also patriotic, intensely so.

    Patriotism and racial pride are a powerful combination.

    My experience is with Mexican nationals, who were blunt about being here to get all the gibs they could while loving Mexico. Stealing and selling drugs was all justified in the name of La Raza. I’m sure if they could pass advantages trade secrets to Mexico, they’d do so in an instant.

  62. Mr. Anon says:
    @Kronos

    Feynman having been a Soviet spy is about as likely as Leslie Groves having been a Soviet spy.

  63. Mr. Anon says:

    In his book Dark Sun, Richard Rhodes describes what was practically an airline service for Soviet espionage. The Soviet military mission in America loaded satchels full of information on to regular flights for Russia that departed a US airbase in Montana (or thereabouts). US Military officers knew about it and complained up the chain of command, but were ordered from on-high to ignore it.

  64. Jack D says:
    @syonredux

    Leftists have always tried to dismiss McCarthy as a paranoid loon, but his concerns were largely justified. The level of penetration that the USSR achieved in the ’40s staggers the imagination: Alger Hiss, Harry Dexter White, Kim Philby, Donald Maclean, Klaus Fuchs, Ted Hall…..

    Except that McCarthy uncovered none of these spies and the people that he did identify as Soviet spies weren’t. His concerns were justified but he was way off target. A stopped clock is right twice a day. Arguably he harmed his own cause by discrediting it. The public memory of the McCarthy period now is not hatred for the actual Soviet spies but pity for those who were falsely targeted by him.

    It’s hard to comprehend now that we know what a murderous tyranny Stalinist Russia was, but there was a period in the ’30s (when most of these spies became converts to the Communist cause) where capitalism was seen by idealistic young people as a corrupt failure and socialism (in its then guise as Soviet Communism) was the bright shining Future. (The same thing is going on right now – a certain % of idealistic young people are always attracted to Utopian ideologies and cults). So the Soviet’s recruiting job was much easier – they didn’t have to recruit people just for money (as they would have to do later on with guys like Aldrich Ames) – they had a large group of people who were willing to volunteer out of love.

  65. bomag says:
    @Mr McKenna

    …where he is is being impeached in Congress.

    Which speaks poorly of Congress:

    ) they have nothing better to do?

    ) looks to me like a Democrat effort to deflect attention from Biden’s wrongdoing.

    So much of politics is personality

    May be my bias, but the Right is judged more harshly than the Left in this regard. Hillary Clinton wouldn’t go as far if she was a conservative.

  66. Sam Lowry says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    One thing to remember about China, it’s a race nation. That is, the Chinese race is the nation and the nation is the Chinese race. China has always been very proud and had a major superiority complex–complicated by the cognitive dissonance of the last 150 years that saw the barbarian round-eyes somehow outpace China–but that is changing as we speak. But hey, what’s wrong with believing in yourself and your people. Actually, that’s pretty common and normal in history, so of course, China is going to have tons of spies and helpers in the West. The Chinese spies we found out about in the US intelligence community are probably the tip of the iceberg. Also, the overt pushing of pro-Chinese policies by ethnic Chinese in the West will grow over time. Heck, the future US elite will be hugely Asian in our lifetime.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  67. jill says:

    “As the award-winning biographer and science writer Graham Farmelo describes in Churchill’s Bomb, the British set out to investigate the possibility of building nuclear weapons before their American colleagues did. But when scientists in Britain first discovered a way to build an atomic bomb, Prime Minister Winston Churchill did not make the most of his country’s lead and was slow to realize the bomb’s strategic implications. This was odd — he prided himself on recognizing the military potential of new science and, in the 1920’s and 1930’s, had repeatedly pointed out that nuclear weapons would likely be developed soon. In developing the bomb, however, he marginalized some of his country’s most brilliant scientists, and also failed to capitalize on Franklin Roosevelt’s generous offer to work jointly on the bomb — and ultimately ceded Britain’s initiative to the Americans, whose successful development and deployment of the bomb placed the United States in a position of supreme power at the dawn of the nuclear age. Churchill came to be terrified by the possibility of thermonuclear war and emerged as a pioneer of détente in the early stages of the Cold War.”

    https://audioboom.com/posts/7433155-1-8-churchill-s-bomb-how-the-united-states-overtook-britain-in-the-first-nuclear-arms-race-by-g

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  68. Jack D says:
    @Steve Sailer

    My theory (and I haven’t been able to prove it) is that somewhere there was some kind of book or list that gave Yiddish speaking immigrants suggested English baby name equivalents for common Hebrew names. Every Jew has an official Hebrew (first) name that will end up being carved on his tombstone (but no last name – the traditional Jewish naming system was by patronymic) but most immigrants realized that such names were not suitable for use as your legal name in America. Now in some cases there was an exact American equivalent, so Josef would be Joseph but in many cases there wasn’t. You didn’t want your kid to be registered as Faivel or Reeven, etc. – too ethnic. And whoever wrote this list for some reason sprinkled in a lot of Scottish names. So you would look at this list and Faivel would become Philip and Reeven would become Irving and Srul would become Isadore and Moshe would become Morris and Leib would become Louis and so on. But whoever did this list was not in touch with the latest baby naming fashions and came up with 19th century names that WASPs were no longer using so these names ended up being mostly held by Jews in the 20th century.

  69. All of them, except Fuchs- Jews. Perhaps Nixon was right on the money (Haldeman was an early race realist, re blacks & IQ)….

  70. Thea says:
    @Kratoklastes

    The Soviet adventure in Afghanistan was not really all that disastrous. They installed a somewhat wobbly but basically pliable leader who held Northern Afghanistan along their border for a while. They managed to remove their troops on a reasonable time frame as opposed to us.

    Sharing a border with the Afghans gave them a pressing interest in how things work there. Again opposed to the US where the troops don’t even always understand the motive. Not having a basket case next door is easier to comprehend.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  71. Lot says:
    @Steve Sailer

    England let a bunch of communist spies alone without prosecution.

    Typically it was a Hall situation where the proof came years after the fact.

    One example

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cairncross

    Some of them may have been immunized in return for cooperation.

  72. Lot says:
    @Jack D

    “ Every Jew has an official Hebrew (first) name”

    Had I’d say. I never heard of this custom.

    What percentage of secular ethnic Jews observe it in the USA?

    • Replies: @Jack D
  73. Say what you want- Germans make the best spies: Schulmeister (Napoleon), Sorge, Abel,… I’d rank them- which I usually avoid- by ethnicity:

    1. Germans
    2. Jews
    3. British, which are over-rated & succeeded in self- glamorization, but still…
    4. Americans (Euro) & Russians
    5. Chinese? Don’t know about them much…

  74. fnn says:
    @South Texas Guy

    As of today, it looks like it would have been better if the Red Army had made it all the way to Cherbourg in WW2.

  75. Jack D says:
    @Lot

    Any Jew that has a religious circumcision ceremony (bris) or for females a baby naming ceremony or later a bar or bat mitzvah would have a Hebrew name. I don’t know what the % of Jews who do this is. If your parents are entirely secular and have no connection with a synagogue or any religious ceremony then you might not.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  76. Harvey Klehr and John Earl Haynes are among the only historians to document Communist activity in the US 20th Century with some degree of objectivity. Several years ago, I read a few of their works and quietly wondered why these books were not creating bigger waves, considering what they were documenting was both fairly remarkable and corroborated via declassified KGB documents.

    In hindsight, it is obvious. The overwhelming number of bad actors — who ranged from treasonous to unpatriotic to merely virulently anti-White — were Jewish. Klehr and Haynes never spell it out in their works, as it’s not their aim, but a quick background search of the people involved clears it up.

    The funny thing about US political history is that you can document Jewish dominance in Communist and Socialist activity, but you must do it in a sentimental, overly-sappy way. Take, for example, the book, A Fire in Their Hearts: Yiddish Socialists in New York. (Yiddish is a nice touch). This book is goodthink because Jewish agitprop is portrayed fondly, as if a Jewish Boomer were fawning over Bob Dylan in a NPT documentary. But Klehr and Haynes are badthinkers, since they merely objectively note the parties involved, without the requisite schmaltz or groveling. So their works are mostly ignored by the establishment.

    Their take on Joseph McCarthy is fairly reasonable. His efforts were somewhat misguided, but much needed and long overdue considering the stakes. Again, I naively wondered why this was not a more widely-held interpretation. The answer, of course, is because the House Committee on Un-American Activities witness list reads like a Bar Mitzvah guestlist. Hence, McCarthy was a demagogue and Arthur Miller writes The Crucible.

  77. Jack D says:
    @Hibernian

    A lot of good his smoother approach did him.

    It sure did. It attracted the attention of Republican Party bigwigs who put the young (age 39) Communist Fighting Congressman on the ballot as Eisenhower’s VP and the rest is history. It didn’t hurt that Nixon was very popular in his home state of California (the ticket ended up carrying 70% of the vote in Orange County and even 52% in SF – the past is a different country).

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  78. Anon[101] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kronos

    Feynman’s first wife had tuberculosis, and was terminally ill and bedridden at the time of the Manhattan Project. She was staying at a hospital in a near-by town, and Feynman borrowed Fuchs’ car frequently to go see her.

    Listen to ‘Los Alamos from below’ on youtube, if you haven’t already; it’s really excellent.

  79. Jack D says:
    @El Dato

    I guess without Sarant and Barr the Soviets would have been even further behind, but the Russians to this day are a day late and a dollar short when it comes to microelectronics, as they are with almost every manufactured product (although they are very competitive in software). The companies that Sarant and Barr founded (as state enterprises) still exist in Zelenograd but they make outdated reverse engineered copies of Western chips mainly for Russian defense use, using the 180nm process which is around 20 years out of date.

    I am still waiting for the Russians, 30 years post Communism, to make 1 cutting edge export worthy product that is salable in Western markets. Sure they make stuff like vacuum tubes that sell in the West because they are so outdated that they are no longer even made in the West but nothing innovative. Compare that to China which exports every damn thing you can think of.

    • Replies: @Big Bill
  80. a reader says:

    Historians Root Out Fourth Atomic Spy in the Manhattan Project

    Wikipedia roots out a couple others:

    Elizabeth Zarubina
    Zarubina was “one of the most successful operators in stealing atomic bomb secrets from the United States”

    Grigory Kheifets
    Kheifetz and Zarubina persuaded Oppenheimer to share information with “antifascists of German origin,” which provided a rationale for taking Klaus Fuchs to Los Alamos.

    Saville Sax
    Sax acted as a courier to move the atomic secrets from Los Alamos to the Soviets.

    Lona Cohen
    Cohen is notable for her role in smuggling Atomic Bomb diagrams out of Los Alamos.

    Leonid Kvasnikov
    Kvasnikov was sent to America where he constructed a group that included Klaus Fuchs, Theodore Hall, Harry Gold, Julius Rosenberg, David Greenglass and Ruth Greenglass.

    • Replies: @a reader
  81. Anonymous[118] • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    “Immigration is tearing this country apart; Black separatism is the only answer”–how about:

    “It’s OK for Nation of Islam to be right both about women & about the socio-ecologic (and spiritual) toll from too many postcolonial or white-adjacent immigrators; which disproportionately harms black bodies as well as stakeholders in national modes of Blackness* ”

    *(might be laying it on too thick there)

  82. Dan Hayes says:
    @Jon Halpenny

    In my NYC childhood both Irving and Norman were quintessential Jewish names.

    • Replies: @Inquiring Mind
  83. Anonymous[118] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hibernian

    By mid-century Lionel Trilling-esque standards, Nixon was considered a bumpkin. Needless to say, we have a lower grade of bumpkin around these days

  84. istevefan says:
    @Jack D

    The public memory of the McCarthy period now is not hatred for the actual Soviet spies but pity for those who were falsely targeted by him.

    The public memory of the McCarthy period is almost entirely shaped by those who vehemently opposed him and their ideological successors. Thus, it is not surprising that the average American would think McCarthy is a bad actor given their only source of information about him is extremely negative.

    If the Ann Coulters of this world held more sway, McCarthy would be viewed much more favorably. I guess it’s related to the concept that the winners record history.

    It’s hard to comprehend now that we know what a murderous tyranny Stalinist Russia was,

    Is it really fair to refer to that nation as “Stalinist Russia” when neither Stalin, nor a large chunk of his henchmen were Russians? I suppose you could argue the majority of the victims were Russian, but the term Stalinist Russia seems to shine a light on ethnic Russians as the bad guys.

    It’s like the current case of Poles getting upset when people call the death camps ‘Polish Death Camps’ which the Poles believe implies they were the ones who ran them.

  85. @Kronos

    I’ve been listening to the audio book of “Surely to Must be Joking Mr. Feynman”. In it, RF says he borrowed Klaus Fuch’s car to visit his wife on her death bed in Albuquerque. After three flat tires, he abandoned the car and hitch hiked.

    He routinely picked the locks of the Los Alamos file cabinets to show how inadequate security was. Oppenheimer, I think, replied that he kept his secret papers locked in his desk drawer, so RF picked the lock and removed them.

    RF seems like more of a PITA than a mensch, but the only thing he really believed in was physics.

  86. Yeah, only the US having the atomic bomb.

    That’s a good idea. They’re so unwarlike.

    • Replies: @syonredux
  87. Jack D says:

    neither Stalin, nor a large chunk of his henchmen were Russians

    It depends what period you are talking about, but the idea that Soviet Communism was some kind of alien force imposed upon the great Russian people is just plain wrong and seems to be a favorite anti-Semitic delusion. After the Great Purges, the ranks of the NKVD were 80% or better Russian and Ukrainian, with maybe 3 or 4% Jewish and the rest made up of assorted Georgians, Armenians, etc. All of their business was conducted in Russian.

    As AFAIK, actual Russians have no problem with calling gulag camps in Russia Russian gulag camps. The only people who might take issue with this are anti-Semites who seem to think that the whole enterprise was run by Jews from start to finish. This is not an exaggeration – they really think that.

  88. cthulhu says:
    @Sean

    Fuchs was important in actually making the thing work, he made a breakthrough suggestion that was improved upon. He was far more than someone who had access to ideas of Feynman’s.

    Fuchs was heavily involved in the gaseous diffusion process for separating U235 from U238, aka uranium enrichment. It was a very difficult problem to crack.

    Richard Rhodes’ book Dark Sun: The Making of the Hydrogen Bomb is a marvelously interesting story and an excellent resource on this topic. Since the Soviet espionage and the Soviet bomb program were such important factors in the US nuclear weapons program post-WW2, including the H-bomb development, Rhodes spends a lot of time going through all of it. He had unprecedented access to the KGB archives in the period right after the fall of the USSR, and was able to confirm things like the complicity of the Rosenbergs, and lots of detail about the Soviet program. Highly recommended.

    • Replies: @Sean
  89. Just an afterthought: spies can be divided in a few categories, although it may seem arbitrary & a bit forced. Also, many of them have had their reputations embellished; some are, in my opinion, not more than celebrities; some were incredibly resourceful, but didn’t amount to much, probably due to rotten luck; some merged two or more categories…

    1. masterminds (Francis Walsingham, Reinhard Heydrich, perhaps J.J. Angleton, Schulmeister..)
    2. great operatives (Sorge, Abel, Elie Cohen, ..)
    3. creative men, spies only as a segment of their lives (Richard Francis Burton, Graham Greene,..)
    4. “traitors” (Canaris, Philby, Fuchs,..)
    5. women (difficult to classify)
    6. hard to tell, ups & downs, perhaps embellishment (Leopold Trepper, Reilly, Gehlen, Schellenberg, …)
    7. businessmen-spooks (Dulles, Donovan, ,,)

  90. Neuday says:
    @Jack D

    As young American men eschew the university indoctrination camps and find productive labor, perhaps the more idealistic of them will form an American Workers Party.

  91. Big Bill says:
    @Jack D

    I am still waiting for the Russians, 30 years post Communism, to make 1 cutting edge export worthy product that is salable in Western markets.

    To be fair, a number of folks have been clamoring for the S-400. I figure there are a bunch of folks that are slavering for Kinzhal and Tsirkon systems as well.

    Granted, the Rooskies wouldn’t/couldn’t sell anywhere near as many units as the Hello Kitty or Angry Birds franchises.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  92. Alfa158 says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Based on my career in tech, Bill P is absolutely correct. I would guess that pretty much everything in high tech being developed in the US is being fed directly back to China. It must be like drinking from a fire hose back in the Middle Kingdom. I worked with an engineer at a high tech company who sometimes trolled everybody by wearing his People’s Liberation Army web belt with the red star on the buckle. No one else cared about anything but their stock options, and they thought I was reading too much into it.
    As far as motivation though I don’t think it’s primarily any money that they are being paid. They are like most immigrants and regard their country of birth as their real country. The US is just a really nice place to live and there are opportunities to own your property and make lots of money without worrying about the authorities knocking on your door. They are patriotic to their nation and race and want China and the Chinese race to prosper and regain their rightful place at the center of the world. I’m an Italian immigrant who came over young. None of the old guys really thought of themselves as Americanos no matter how long they had been here or how much they had prospered in the US.
    It’s just the way most humans are. Only Northern Europeans seem to have developed this fatal combination of telescopic philanthropy, individual atomization and self denigration.

  93. syonredux says:
    @Jack D

    So the Soviet’s recruiting job was much easier – they didn’t have to recruit people just for money (as they would have to do later on with guys like Aldrich Ames) – they had a large group of people who were willing to volunteer out of love.

    Not just easier. The quality of the people being recruited by the Soviets was also higher. Fellows like Kim Philby and Alger Hiss were Top Men, not vulgar mercenaries like Ames.When the Establishment is a fertile recruiting ground , you’ve got serious problems…..

    As for McCarthy:

    McCarthy remains a controversial figure. Some scholars assert that new evidence—in the form of Venona-decrypted Soviet messages, Soviet espionage data now opened to the West, and newly released transcripts of closed hearings before McCarthy’s subcommittee—has partially vindicated McCarthy by showing that some of his identifications of Communists were correct and that the scale of Soviet espionage activity in the United States during the 1940s and 1950s was larger than many scholars suspected.[152][153][154] After reviewing evidence from Venona and other sources, historian John Earl Haynes concluded that, of 159 people identified on lists used or referenced by McCarthy, evidence was substantial that nine had aided Soviet espionage efforts.

    Among those implicated in files later made public from the Venona project and Soviet sources were Cedric Belfrage, Frank Coe, Lauchlin Currie, Harold Glasser, David Karr, Mary Jane Keeney, and Leonard Mins.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy#Arguments_for_vindication

    • Replies: @Jack D
  94. Jack D says:
    @syonredux

    of 159 people identified on lists used or referenced by McCarthy, evidence was substantial that nine had aided Soviet espionage efforts.

    Oh, so out of McCarthy’s victims, only 150 out of 159 were innocent, not all 159. Much better. Vindication!

  95. @Jack D

    My theory (and I haven’t been able to prove it) is that somewhere there was some kind of book or list that gave Yiddish speaking immigrants suggested English baby name equivalents for common Hebrew names

    I’m pretty sure you’re right . I had a friend who was, for a time, archivist of the Yiddish Forverts. I think I heard from him that there were old columns (perhaps in the bintel brief?) that dealt with questions like should we name our ‘Pinchas’ , ‘Phineas’ in English or perhaps ‘Percy’? etc. As many of those giving advice to “griner”, were themselves not completely acculturated ,a significant part of their knowledge of American mores came from reading novels in English, so in all likelihood ,whoever responded, had some idiosyncratic ideas about what would be an appropriate English name.

  96. Art Deco says:

    The Rosenbergs were the most notorious atomic spies, but they seem like blue collar nobodies compared to Fuchs and Ted Hall.

    Rosenberg was a trained electrical engineer, graduating from City College. I’d wager he was a schoolmate of this fellow Seborer. A man who identified himself as Rosenberg’s contact with Soviet intelligence gave and interview to the Washington Post in 1996 (I don’t know how they verified his identity; amazing he was still around after 50-odd years). What he said was that Rosenberg’s atomic espionage wasn’t that consequential. His real value was in industrial espionage, notably in the realm of radar technology, which he was working on in his factory job. He said Rosenberg took risks and calculated them carefully. He also said Rosenberg was careful to keep his wife out of the loop.

    IIRC, the rest of the Rosenberg and Greenglass families were mortified when Julius and his b-i-l were exposed and pretty much cut them off. For whatever reason, no one on either side was willing or able to take custody of the children, who were conveyed by the party lawyer Emmanuel Bloch to a couple named Meeropol.

    • Replies: @Alden
  97. Atomic spy Saville Sax ( https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/venona/fami_sax.html ) had a son named Boria that went to High Park High School in Chicago in the 1960s.

    An acquaintance of his (now deceased) talked about how the family was always under financial pressure, such that he would go to school with hole in his shoes and that he would pick up his phone and hear strange sounds.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
  98. Art Deco says:
    @Kratoklastes

    They also had the problem of trying to ‘digest’ the 300 million poor bastards that Stalin was gifted by the inbred vermin Churchill and FDR.

    There weren’t 300 million people living in Eastern Europe at the time and, as the progression of the war effort was such that the Red Army was occupying the territory by 1945 (and communist partisans were occupying Albania and Yugoslavia), the options Churchill and FDR had were just about nil. The Soviets were willing to let Finland and a fragment of Austria alone, but every other place they had the upper hand they subjugated. They had the co-operation of the local social-democratic parties in so doing, something you never hear about. There was a minority faction within the Czech socialist parties which resisted and the prevailing faction of the Roumanian socialists resisted, but that’s it. IIRC, the same sorts were allied with the communists in Greece as well. Outside the East Bloc, the main socialist party in Italy was formally allied with the Communists for 16 years. France is the only country with a sizable Communist Party wherein the socialists and communists were antagonists throughout the period running from 1947 to 1970.

    inbred vermin

    Oh, you’re from Stormfront.

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  99. Art Deco says:
    @Kronos

    He wasn’t. He was an opportunist, a liar, and smear-merchant, and a drunk. The value-added he provided to the efforts of people working to get sketchy characters out of positions where they had access to confidential information was just about nil.

  100. Jack D says:
    @Kratoklastes

    By the 1950s the leadership of the USSR knew that the system they represented was not capable of competing with relatively-freer economies – so they ate their society’s seed corn in a bid to pull off ‘big ticket’ items (Gagarin; Sputnik).

    This is just not true. Of course they knew that they were behind but they felt that a planned economy was superior to a capitalist economy and they would catch up. They had already made great strides in turning Russia from an agricultural to an industrial economy.

    The space program was a spin off from their ICBM technology. Russian nuclear weapons were not as miniaturized as American weapons so they needed bigger rockets. It turned out that these rockets were big enough to send stuff into orbit.

    Russia had a “military first” economy so they didn’t need to compete with the West on everything. They just needed military parity and a fraction of what the West spent on their consumer economy. So for example, they were the world’s #3 producer of (mostly military) trucks but #9 in passenger car production.

    • Replies: @Kratoklastes
  101. istevefan says:
    @Jack D

    It depends what period you are talking about,

    How about the period that covers the imposition of the USSR up through the forced famines.

    The only people who might take issue with this are anti-Semites who seem to think that the whole enterprise was run by Jews from start to finish.

    I have never heard of anyone claiming Jews ran the whole enterprise from start to finish.

  102. istevefan says:
    @Kratoklastes

    Soviet global expansion plans are as fictional as Third Reich global expansion plans. By the 1950s the leadership of the USSR knew that the system they represented was not capable of competing with relatively-freer economies – so they ate their society’s seed corn in a bid to pull off ‘big ticket’ items (Gagarin; Sputnik).

    Wouldn’t the 1950s still have seen the USSR devastated from WW2? Any nation that lost 25 million, disproportionately young men, as well as a large chunk of their infrastructure would probably not be in an ideal position. Certainly they would not have fully recovered in under 10 years.

  103. syonredux says:
    @Jack D

    It depends what period you are talking about, but the idea that Soviet Communism was some kind of alien force imposed upon the great Russian people is just plain wrong and seems to be a favorite anti-Semitic delusion. After the Great Purges, the ranks of the NKVD were 80% or better Russian and Ukrainian, with maybe 3 or 4% Jewish and the rest made up of assorted Georgians, Armenians, etc. All of their business was conducted in Russian.

    Yeah, but that also means that when the USSR was at its most murderous (Civil War, Red Terror, Collectivization Campaign, Ukraine Famine, 1937-1938 Great Terror), the apparatus of repression was heavily Jewish:

    “About 40 percent of high-ranking NKVD officers had Jewish nationality recorded in their identity documents,” writes Yale University professor Timothy Snyder in Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin, “as did more than half of the NKVD generals. . . . The Great Terror could be, and by many would be, blamed on the Jews.”

    At the time when the NKVD was killing members of national minorities, most of its leading officers were themselves members of national minorities…. In carrying out these ethnic massacres, which of course they had to if they wished to preserve their positions and their lives, they comprised an ethic of internationalism, which must have been important to some of them. Then they were killed anyway . . . and usually replaced by Russians.”

    —Timothy Snyder

    http://jewishcurrents.org/december-20-the-secret-police-8412

  104. syonredux says:
    @obwandiyag

    Yeah, only the US having the atomic bomb.

    That’s a good idea. They’re so unwarlike.

    Dunno. After WW2 ended, the USA had a nuclear monopoly for several years, and no major wars broke out…..After Stalin got the bomb, he gave North Korea the go-ahead to North Korea, and we had the Korean War….

  105. gcochran says:
    @South Texas Guy

    Since by that time the Russians knew about Venona, it for sure was not worth it.

  106. Jack D says:
    @Big Bill

    I meant consumer products, not military technology.

  107. gcochran says:
    @Kratoklastes

    Eastern Europe was ‘gifted’ to the Soviet Union by the Red Army.

  108. gcochran says:
    @Jack D

    The first Politburo was half Jewish. Actually, counting fractions, 53% .

  109. @Kratoklastes

    Sinclair is about as garish a red as I can tolerate

    I have a Sinclair tartan necktie– one grandmother’s mother was a Mason, Scottish not English, and they’re a sept, or whatever. I also have several Campbell ties, as my other grandmother’s mother was a Campbell.

    I have to remember to keep them on opposite sides of the closet.

    We’re building a house just outside a village founded by settlers with a Cameron heritage. This is going to be fun. Will we have to install a sept tank?

  110. anon[356] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    It depends what period you are talking about, but the idea that Soviet Communism was some kind of alien force imposed upon the great Russian people is just plain wrong and seems to be a favorite anti-Semitic delusion.

    So on Planet Jack, Vladimir Ulyanov aka “Lenin” wasn’t smuggled into Russia by a foreign power specifically for the purpose of destabilizing the Imperial government? There was no Bolshevik coup d’etat in Petrograd, no execution of opponents by various means?

    In fact, the entire Russian civil war of 1919 – 1921 never happened, just for a start? That Bolshevism wasn’t imposed via force on entire regions, once the Red Army was fully functional? The NEP, de-kulakization, those didn’t happen either? The Soviet system was like a mushroom that just grew up after a hard rain, with no violence, bloodshed, etc.?

    It all just happened by coincidence?

    I used to think you were confused, Jack, but it’s become clear that you are disingenuous and at times outright dishonest. Sad.

    • Agree: BenKenobi
  111. @Jack D

    Have you heard of Seaman Schepps? A jeweller in New York.

    The story goes that his immigrant Jewish mother looked out of the window of their tenement and saw the words “Seaman’s Bank for Savings” on a building across the way. She thought old Seaman must have been pretty rich to have a bank all to himself, so decided there and then to give her son a good luck charm to take with him through life.

    It worked.

  112. a reader says:
    @a reader

    Sorry to have overlooked those:

    Harry Gold
    Gold admitted that he had been involved in espionage since 1934 and had helped Fuchs pass information about the Manhattan Project to the Soviet Union.

    Anatoli Yatskov
    Yatzkov was a Soviet consul in New York as well as intelligence officer handling American agents in the U.S. Manhattan Project during war.

    Jacob Golos
    Golos transferred a Communist cell of engineers headed by Julius Rosenberg into direct contact with Soviet intelligence operatives in New York. The cell began efforts to penetrate the Manhattan Project.

    Semyon Semyonov
    Semyonov persuaded Vasily Zarubin to transfer Julius Rosenberg and his contacts from the CPUSA-Jacob Golos channel to the direct control of the Rezidentura, with himself as the assigned case officer.

    Bruno Pontecorvo
    Semyonov received from Bruno Pontecorvo in January 1943 an extensive report on the first nuclear chain reaction.

    Joel Barr
    Barr was part of the Soviet Atomic Spy Ring.

    Alfred Sarant
    Sarant was part of the Rosenberg spy ring that reported to Soviet intelligence.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  113. @Reg Cæsar

    Many Normans settled in Scotland. For example, Robert the Bruce was of Norman ancestry. The Jeffrey name is certainly associated with Scotland.

  114. Anonymous[164] • Disclaimer says:
    @ic1000

    As an ABC, I can tell you that every day the US gets more globohomo, the less attractive it is to feel a bond or closeness to it. I never left the US, the US left me. The nation of gay disco is just hard to feel a compelling draw to, you know?

    • Replies: @Alden
  115. @Art Deco

    “Oh, you’re from Stormfront.”

    You’re wrong as usual. Krackheadklassless is some sort of Polynesian or NZ Aboriginal mutt that likes to throw stones over the big pond from his peanut gallery. He mostly loathes the US, the West and its people, or at least the white ones.

  116. @syonredux

    “Alger Hiss, Harry Dexter White, Kim Philby, Donald Maclean, Klaus Fuchs, Ted Hall…..”

    …Franklin Roosevelt….

    • Agree: Hibernian
  117. Abe says:
    @Steve Sailer

    Scots were hugely prestigious in the U.S. in the early 20th Century. A lot of the popularity of golf in the U.S. is owning to the cultural prestige of Scots 100 years ago.

    East Asians, as the successor striver minority, have taken up the Jews’ old slack of giving their progeny posh Blighty names- I have known so many Calvin Wangs, Cornell Chus, Yale Zhongs, Berkeley Chins, etc. The fact that as immigrants they are the peasants/trash of their race (confirmed by the way they abuse their own children, a tell-tale low class behavior even if done in a particularly striving East Asian way) and yet still succeed so mightily in the New World only confirms the very high base level of their national human capital.

  118. @South Texas Guy

    I have to wonder as well. These days, it’s much more tempting to conclude that it’s about money. It might depend on whether the person doing the espionage is an immigrant from China or a born American, whether of Chinese descent or not for me to even guess at motives.

  119. @Steve Sailer

    I knew a jewish salesman in the millinery district back in the ’80s named Noel. He was the first jew named Noel that I had encountered.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  120. Abe says:
    @Hibernian

    I remember an aside in a book I read last year about US strategic nuclear policy of how Nixon, still trying to pull off SALT in the waning days of Watergate, would read the newspaper and then pathetically wail how the Establishment was trying “to kill the President”. This was a man with such awesome firepower at his disposal he could afford to toss away more than any other leader in human history had ever commanded- heck, he had more “thunderbolts” in his quiver than Zeus himself. And yet here he was going to pieces over a mean editorial in THE NEW YORK TIMES.

    Watergate was a coup (if Nixon deserved to be impeached, it was for his quasi-treasonous leaning on the President of Vietnam to stay away from peace talks until after the ‘68 election so that Humphrey would still be saddled with an unpopular “Democrat war”). Which shows the awesomeness of Trump- he is man enough not to fall for the gotchas, double standards, and other woke-ified crap the scum media have used for so long as their reliable anti-Republican death rays. Would Romney have stood by Kavanaugh, or tearfully folded (“giving someone a pass on committing the high school hijinks of an 80’s sex comedy 16 year old when they should know better as a real-life 80’s 14 year is not who we are as Republicans…”) and then slit open his own stomach for bullying a gay classmate when in high school himself? Trump may not be awesome enough to kill death itself, but we are witnessing in real-time right now a President so awesome he has taken the sting out of impeachment.

  121. Jack D says:
    @Twodees Partain

    When I was a college freshman, I was in an all male dorm section (the bathrooms were not really set up to be coed) but there was 1 girl on our floor – her name was Noel. As far as we could figure out, they must have thought that she was a he. She liked the arrangement and ended up staying.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  122. Jack D says:
    @a reader

    Some of these folks were Soviet spy masters and not the actual American turncoats.

    Sarant and Barr worked mainly on radar and not the Manhattan Project. They later defected to the USSR and became the founders of the Soviet microelectronics industry – somewhere in this thread there is a link to “Engineering Communism”, which is a book about them that I recommend. Julius Rosenberg was in their circle at City College, although they were brilliant engineers and Julius was more concerned with Communism than with his engineering studies. Perhaps for that reason, they were the rare defectors that had a good experience in the Soviet Union. Most defectors ended up as sad drunks, untrusted by their Soviet hosts and their usefulness as spies over but by all accounts Sarant and Barr adjusted well to Soviet life and became honored members of the nomenklatura.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  123. @Joe Stalin

    Errata: Hyde Park HS in Chicago.

  124. @Jack D

    Of course they knew that they were behind but they felt that a planned economy was superior to a capitalist economy and they would catch up. They had already made great strides in turning Russia from an agricultural to an industrial economy

    By the 50s the planning-as-superior canard was largely abandoned (except in the very long run – every time there’s a [*] hereafter it refers to the ‘length of run’ problem).

    It’s pretty clear that the scales fell from Stalin’s eyes by the early 1930s (at the latest)… the point at which he started liquidating dissenters.

    Well before that (in 1921) Lenin proposed the NEP (which is basically capitalism) and it was the way things were run until 1928/29 and Stalin’s “Great Break” – by which time the country had been bootstrapped back to pre-1913 output levels by direct result of … being pretty much capitalist (they even had profit oriented public enterprises).

    So Lenin knew that capitalism was more efficient and that it would outperform socialism in the short-to-medium run[*]. That’s just not debatable – otherwise he would not have argued for, and implemented, the NEP.

    The fact that it stayed in place for half a decade after Lenin’s death, also meant that the Party leadership understood that switching it off would cause a reduction in competitiveness[*] and a decline in living standards[*].

    Stalin had claimed (in 1925) that if they did ‘socialism in one country’ they would be able to get it right and show the world. But the NEP was delivering a return to pre-war (incl Civil War) levels.

    However the West was doing significantly better, and Stalin was obsessed with this idea of showing everyone that he wasn’t full of shit. (He also seemed to have ignored that the USSR 1918-1921 was ravaged by Civil War, where the West wasn’t).

    He attributed the (relative) underperformance of the Soviet economy to a problem with the industrial ‘mix’ (“too much” agriculture, “not enough” industry) – without understanding that the fall in the ag/ind ratio in more-capitalist economies is a side-effect, not a cause.

    Still, Stalin permitted the NEP to continue for ~5 years after Lenin’s death – why would he have done that if he genuinely thought that it was inefficient[*]?

    Eventually he gave into his inner megalomaniac, and collectivised everything and tried to force-feed industrial machinery into the system (for its own sake).

    The results were predictably woeful: misallocation of capital → maltransformation of inputs into outputs.

    Tens of millions of people starved within 5 years of the “Great Break” and the abandonment of the NEP (which, remember, is capitalism).

    So that was another obvious data point that informed the intelligentsia of the Soviet Union (a lot of whom weren’t complete fuckwits)… but by then Stalin was in a position of power whereby if you pointed at those data points you risked a bullet in the back of the head.

    By the mid-30s, it was clear to everyone that Stalin was going to fuck you up if you so much as mentioned those data points.

    And of course Stalin and his entourage wouldn’t come out and say “We shot him in the back of the head because he pointed out things that made us look stupid“… no, they had some douche from marketing come up with talking points about how the bullet recipient was an ‘enemy of the working class‘.

    So it simply doesn’t hold water that they

    felt that a planned economy was superior to a capitalist economy and they would catch up

    They behaved as if they didn’t think it was true.

    .

    CODA: Length Of Run

    What always has to be borne in mind is that the Soviet leadership was being basically dishonest with its populace.

    There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the system that is the endpoint of Marxist doctrine will deliver higher output during the transition phase.

    It’s not even clear that the level of output in that final system gives the project a positive NPV in material-output terms for a member of the proletariat.

    The leadership of these revolutions knew that their audience didn’t like the way that the existing system was treating them.

    They also knew that the ideas they were pedalling deal with a long-run comparative static comparison (Marxian end-state vs current state) with very wishy-washy discussion of the transitional dynamics.

    All this would, in any event, go over the head of the average prole… so they did a bit of marketing.

    This is the key problem with people who choose a bad mechanism to implement a reasonable idea.

    You can make the problem worse for yourself if you then permit the progress of the offering to be evaluated using inappropriate metrics.

    For the Marxists and derivatives, comparing current per capita output is a bad metric, but they fell into that trap because most of them had the mental sophistication of a 12 year old.

    In this case the ‘reasonable idea’ is a world in which artificial distinctions become meaningless, and society becomes de-stratified under conditions of material abundance.

    That’s the Marxian ideal at its core, and it actually isn’t a bad goal.

    In the ‘material abundance means what it says‘ version, Marx and his followers seemed to think that “getting from here to there” was akin to an exergonic reaction with a high level of input required to get the system past the ‘hump’ (usually labelled ΔG≠ in a chemistry diagram).

    Somehow, energies had to be diverted to get past ΔG≠, after which it’s all gravy. ‘Sacrifices must be made‘ in the short-term in order to get to the eventual desired end-point.

    This tied in with a whole bunch of things that aren’t all that controversial: two key ones are that
    • most people are dummies and are easily fooled by those who want to live by exploitation;
    • economic systems take a long time to reconfigure, and reconfigurations are costly.

    So if your plan is to help the dummies get to a Bright New Tomorrow where the exploiters don’t get to live in palaces at the dummies’ expense… as the bringer of the Good News, you’ve gotta be a bit exploiter-ish during the transition: but dammit you’re willing to make that sacrifice.

    All of a sudden your media releases are full of “vanguard of the proletariat“; “radical transformation of consciousness” and all that shit. Religious language designed to be impenetrable to the laity – all the laity knows is that these phrases are obviously pregnant with deep significance.

    Eventually’material abundance‘ is re-defined as ‘you get whatever you want, but you only want what we think you ought to want‘.

    And since plans are costly to make and change, then it makes no sense to permit dissent about plans: otherwise people who don’t think in terms of the correct length of run, will think that the plan is failing and might agitate for it to be changed.

    It’s been clear to me since I studied this stuff in the 90s that the eventual Marxian (abundant, non-artificially-stratified) system is not only possible, it’s desirable.

    In fact I think it’s inevitable, and that it will emerge from the system we currently have – so long as the parasite classes don’t end life on Earth during their final throes as a class. They are ‘wired’ like that: they would have few qualms about reducing the setting the entire world ablaze, so long as their relative share of the pie increased. They’ve done it before, dozens of times.

    THEY are враг пролетариата.

  125. Jack D says:
    @Jack D

    Usdin , the author of Engineering Communism, offers a summary here:

    https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/csi-studies/studies/vol49no3/html_files/Rosenberg_2.htm

    For those not interested in reading a book length account.

    Remarkably, at the end of his life, after the downfall of the Soviet Union, Barr returned to the US and even collected Social Security and was not arrested.

  126. @Jack D

    I had always thought of Noel as a Christian name, and a man’s name as well. So it seems to apply to women and non-Christians too. Live and learn, I guess.

  127. Hibernian says:
    @Jack D

    Sure, he got to be a Senator, then Vice-President, then, after a hiatus, President. Impeachment was his own fault; he gave ammunition to his enemies by covering up a burglary. Nonetheless, he had to endure 25 years of intense hatred from large portions of the Establishment. (There was a much stronger conservative wing of the Establishment back then. That was a large part of the reason for his success.) Point is, the hatred of both men was largely based on their mission, not the way they carried it out, the screaming of the McCarthy denouncers notwithstanding.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  128. orionyx says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    Come to think of it, Norman is Norman too.

  129. @jill

    The American A-bomb was really expensive to come up with during wartime. The US had so much industrial potential that it was kind of a Sure, why not? decision for the US but for anybody else it would have been a massive bet-the-country undertaking.

    • Replies: @JMcG
    , @anon
  130. @Neoconned

    McCarthyism under Roy Cohn turned into yet another Big Gay Rightwing Fiasco, when Cohn and thus McCarthy went after the Army for drafting Cohn’s handsome aide G. David Schine (sp?) and then not stationing him near the heartbroken Roy.

    Interestingly, Schine appears to have been more or less oblivious to Cohn’s crush on him. A rich kid, he next went out to Hollywood, married Miss Sweden, had six kids, won a Best Picture Oscar as executive producer of The French Connection. He and Miss Sweden died in a private plane crash in Burbank in the 1990s.

    You could make an interesting Forrest Gump-style movie about his life.

    • Replies: @anon
  131. @Dan Hayes

    You must of heard about the four men from Brooklyn who invented air conditioning?

    Hi, Lo, Max and Norm?

    • LOL: Dan Hayes
  132. JMcG says:
    @Jon Halpenny

    Are there Jewish masons? I’d thought that was rather like oil and water. The only masons I know are Presbyterian, maybe some evangelicals now.

  133. @Sam Lowry

    I agree, Sam. There is nothing wrong believing in your people and nation. The problem is with the people in our government who actively hate the American people. At the level of the hiring managers of these foreigners, it’s more like they are cowardly and would rather give it all away than be called names or called into the office for “discrimination”.

    Check out the Confucius schools that are given money from the Chinese government to teach the language over here (lots of times to American-born Chinese kids). I’m not sure how much headway they are gonna make, as damn hard as that language is, especially the written form.

  134. JMcG says:
    @Steve Sailer

    The B29 program, iirc, was 3 Billion as opposed to the Manhattan Project’s 2 Billion.

  135. @Steve Sailer

    I’ve got my pet peeves about the Moms and their conformist naming conventions, so I have a memory on this Joshua thing. No, I don’t think that was at all Jewish, at least the last bout of it. See if you can find an office or small group of people that range 30 (now) to 40 without at least one Josh, Jason, or Jeremy in it. Those “J” names were big with all Moms, apparently, in the 1980s and early ’90s. I always thought Jeremy was cool until the ’00s got me sick of it.

    Jeffrey was the American spelling until even Americans wanted to go all multicultural with the Geoff shit. The first time I noticed it was with a guy in college. We had called him Jeff, and after I saw his name written one time, I was seriously confused. “What? What the hell is gee-of? I’d never read anything but “Jeff” before and none of those people were Jewish.

  136. @Jack D

    … they had a large group of people who were willing to volunteer out of love.

    That stuff was going on with a few people even through the late 1970s. The Jim Jones People’s Temple was not so much a cult as just a bunch of Communists pissed off at life in Capitalist California.

    As related just after the 40th anniversary of that massacre/suicide of just under 1,000 Americans in Peak Stupidity‘s series Drinking the Commie Kool-Aid – 40 years back (Part 2, Part 3, and Part 4), Jim Jones and crew were big fans of the USSR. They couldn’t make end meet farming under Communism in the Guyanan jungle, so they had to try to make it off the Social Security checks of the “members”, many black women, BTW. One of the last requests by one of Jone’s women, as I recall, after the Jonestown massacre was a request for $800,000 to be sent to the Soviet Union. As they say, it wasn’t the heat, it was the stupidity.

    When you watch youtube videos of news footage of this sick event from that time, you will not hear much about Communism. How weird…

  137. Alden says:
    @Art Deco

    The Meeropol brothers made life long careers speaking at leftist conferences and colleges about how their parents were both innocent of spying and justified in their spying to help sainted Russia against satanic Russia. They were real heroes to the geriatric communists college teachers, students and administrators.

    About 20 years ago a lot of the old communists hit 8o and started dying. The obituaries were huge, half a page of adulation. They were never identified as communists, always civil rights activists.

    • Replies: @Alden
  138. Alden says:
    @Anonymous

    On my father’s side we’ve been in America hundreds of years. I feel the same way you do.
    America hates me and mine. Wish they’d stayed in England.

  139. anon[122] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    People don’t realize how huge the Manhattan project was. Faced with a choice of plutonium or uranium bomb, the War Department chose : “Both”. Hanford used an amazing amount electricity and grew all during the Cold War. Something similar can be said of Oak Ridge. Other facilities across the US weren’t as big but were expensive. The isolation of North America made this possible.

    The Germans had a plan that involved using the Norwegian heavy water plant. However it was sabotaged by the Norwegian resistance. There was no other source of deuterium available.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_heavy_water_sabotage

    The Japanese were aware of the potential but simply didn’t have the resources. So instead they created thousands of intercontinental incendiary balloons which were sent via the jet stream to start fires in North America. They were almost entirely a failure.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu-Go_balloon_bomb

    The sheer continental mass of resources the US had available was just huge.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
  140. Alden says:
    @Alden

    I meant sainted Russia against satanic Germany of course.

  141. anon[307] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer

    His parents owned a nationwide chain of hotels, including the Ambassador in L.A., which he managed in 1955.
    He may have been engaged to Piper Laurie at the time.

  142. Mr. Anon says:
    @Jack D

    Yeah, sure – Wily, smart mensch, Abel: good. Stupid, drunken goy, Hayhanen: bad

    We get it.

    There’s something on your sleeve. Oh, it’s your tribal resentments.

  143. @anon

    Hanford is near the Grand Coulee Dam and Oak Ridge near the Tennessee Valley hydroelectric project, right? Did other countries have that much hydroelectric power? And nobody was dropping bombs on our dams.

  144. LondonBob says:
    @Jack D

    Finns are the most impressive drinkers I have met, my Finnish friend easily drank the Russians under the table when I lived in Moscow, so Häyhänen must have spent an awful lot on alcohol to get stupid drunk.

  145. @Hibernian

    low level information is valuable in itself if you have a lot of it and talented analysts to analyze it

    That still doesn’t make the system as a whole, efficient (in any of a range of possible senses).

    And it’s easy to tell that it’s not efficient from 2 basic facts:
    ① every clandestine service in the West failed to predict or forestall every major geopolitical development in the 20th century (except for the ones for which their own government was responsible); and
    ② the Western political, diplomatic, bureaucratic, and military classes had infiltrators at the very highest levels who were often not discovered until they defected.

    I’m pretty certain that the same ‘stylised facts’ would be true for those on the ‘other side’, but I haven’t read enough histories of them to have reliable evidence that I can recall off the top of my head.

    And of course there’s always the risk that some low-to-mid-level apparatchik has a pang of conscience – folks like Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden, Daniel Ellsberg, John Kiriakou, and Katharine Gun – and blows the lid.

    The intelligence services are not populated by the smartest knives in the drawer: they get half-decent recruits (~2nd decile graduates), but they have a massive level of turnover. They lose ~60% of inductees after the first 2-year hitch.

    That’s because the work environment is absolutely toxic, because of the high level of ‘kiss-up/kick-down’ types, who absolutely dominate at all levels above about GS9 – mostly because of a variant of Gresham’s Law… assholes drive out non-assholes.

  146. Fuchs would lend his car to Feynman to visit his wife in the hospital. I imagine Fuchs heard a lot of good gossip about Los Alamos from Feynman. I can’t imagine Feynman censoring himself in talking to a fellow security-cleared physicist like Fuchs. Feynman was almost as junior as Ted Hall, but he probably figured out lots of things from talking to more senior people like Teller. And do you think Feynman would pass up telling a good story?

    I’m not saying anything accusatory about Feynman, just that his personality was not conducive to a Need To Know regime of tight-lipped internal firewalls. If you tell Feynman that Klaus Fuchs has been checked out and he’s worthy of top secret clearance, Feynman is likely to tell Fuchs what he has on his mind.

  147. Anonymous[114] • Disclaimer says:
    @Altai

    The CIA wanted the Soviets to get the Bomb. The military and our patriotic intelligence and security agencies did not, but the CIA won.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  148. Art Deco says:
    @Neoconned

    His ‘general thesis’ incorporated doctored photographs showing Millard Tydings chatting with Earl Browder. Was that ‘vindicated’?

  149. Art Deco says:
    @Thea

    The Soviet adventure in Afghanistan was not really all that disastrous.

    Except for hundreds-of-thousands dead and hundreds-of-thousands displaced, not a disaster at all. Najibullah looked bucco nice hanging from the gallows.

  150. Art Deco says:
    @Hibernian

    Nixon was far more meticulous than McCarthy. He made discrete charges against particular persons and made them stick. He pulled yarn and struck obnoxious poses now and again, but you’d be hard put to find an example of him slandering a particular person or fabricating charges out of whole cloth, something McCarthy did repeatedly.

    To the extent Nixon had a perspective larger than personal ambition, he tended to favor the Rockefeller wing of the Republican Party, even though in re Rockefeller himself it was said ‘the two men hate each other too cordially’.

    Nixon’s defenders imagine that he had Gordon Liddy, Howard Hunt, Tom Charles Huston, and sundry other rogues on his payroll and it had nothing to do with how he wanted business done.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Not Raul
  151. Sean says:
    @cthulhu

    The proposal on how to detonate the bomb he made was not accepted, but still was a vital theoretical advance that others built on for the final solution.

    • Replies: @Jack D
  152. Jack D says:
    @Sean

    the final solution

    Not THAT one, the other one. It still might turn out to be the Final Solution for all of humanity. Chekov says that if you put the gun on the table in Act I, someone has to use it in Act III.

    The funny thing is that while the plutonium bomb was a major intellectual challenge, the uranium bomb really wasn’t. Separating the enriched uranium was a lot of work but once you had it, the weapon itself was relatively trivial (at least compared to the plutonium bomb where you had to create a perfect spherical implosion). You shot a donut shaped piece of uranium down a gun barrel and at the other end was another piece of uranium that was the hole in the donut and when the two met a critical reaction ensued. Boom!

    I think that Oppenheimer must have realized on some level that he had to give all these great minds something hard to chew on or they would go nuts out there in the desert. And Groves probably subscribed to the military maxim that two is one and one is none.

    • Replies: @Sean
  153. Not Raul says:

    Soviet intelligence seems to have had a particularly high degree of success in the West before 1949.

  154. Not Raul says:
    @Art Deco

    “you’d be hard put to find an example of him [Nixon] slandering a particular person or fabricating charges out of whole cloth”

    Wrong. Alger Hiss is an example. The “evidence” & “charges” against him were a joke.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    , @JMcG
  155. Anonymous[974] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jack D

    That rings a bell. I remember reading an account of the excommunication of Henry Kissinger, by some group of rabbis somewhere, in which ceremony he was called by a strange name I’d never seen before (which I’ve now forgotten).

    • Replies: @Jack D
  156. Art Deco says:
    @Anonymous

    The CIA was founded in 1947. Rosenberg’s circle had been active for some years at that point.

  157. Art Deco says:
    @Not Raul

    There have been a string of academic works on the subject over 40 years demonstrating Hiss guilt, which is demonstrable from multiple information sets – not only Chambers’ testimony, but the Field interrogations and the VENONA interceptions. The residue of people promoting the idea that he was anything but guilty is now limited to his son and Victor Navasky. The last effort to acquit his was one by one of Navasky’s circle who maintained the agent referred to in the VENONA transcripts was actually one Wilder Foote, one of Secretary Stetinnius PR staff. Since Mr. Foote spent the Depression publishing small town newspapers in Vermont and after 1945 worked for the publications bureau of the United Nations, he was some sleeper agent.

    • LOL: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Not Raul
  158. Art Deco says:

    And of course there’s always the risk that some low-to-mid-level apparatchik has a pang of conscience – folks like Bradley Manning, Edward Snowden, Daniel Ellsberg, John Kiriakou, and Katharine Gun – and blows the lid.

    Manning is a Loki-like figure who generates trouble wherever he goes. Ellsberg’s been dining off his ‘conscience’ for 40-odd years.

    • Replies: @Not Raul
  159. JMcG says:
    @Not Raul

    I didn’t know there were any of you left. That’s pretty funny.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  160. Not Raul says:
    @Art Deco

    That is ridiculous. Hiss was NOT named in the VERONA transcripts. Someone guessed that a code name in the transcripts referred to Hiss; but that’s just guess work.

    There’s no solid evidence. Just slander and innuendo.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  161. Not Raul says:
    @Art Deco

    Ellsberg sacrificed a lucrative career to inform the public.

    You’re as reliable as a chain email.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  162. Jack D says:
    @Anonymous

    According to this link on Unz (surely an impeccable source) Kissinger’s Hebrew name is Avraham ben Elazer (sp), Abraham son of Eliezer. I have no idea if this is true but that is the correct style of Hebrew names – so and so, son of so and so.

    http://www.unz.com/article/debacle-inc/

    In Germany, Henry was Heinz.

    • Replies: @Dissident
  163. Sean says:
    @Jack D

    The final solution to the problem of whether the Jews are superior is, yes they are, but sometimes they are unable to think outside the box. Fuchs and Erwin Schrödinger (in physics and even more in his book What Is Life?) show that. And also that brilliant gentiles tend to be a little unworldly, though both John von Neumann and Bertrand Russell advocated a nuclear strike, or the threat of one, to prevent the Soviets acquiring the atomic bomb.

    In retrospect, John Von Neumann was, if not overrated, overhyped and Fuchs far more creative than he was given credit for in their collaborations. Fuchs was the grandfather of the H bomb, father of the British Atomic bomb and the most effective spy Britain ever had once America stopped sharing nuclear secrets thus violating the 1944 Hyde Park Agreement between Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt, as a result of the born secret doctrine in the 1946 McMahon Bill from the inspiration for the wicked Queen in Snow White


    Helen Gahagan Douglas, who sponsored the McMahon Bill in the House was pink down to her underwear as Richard Nixon who defeated her in a vicious 1950 California election said. She was a premature anti Nazi in 1933 (she was married to Jew Melvyn Douglas). She was the one who dubbed Nixon ‘Tricky Dick’.

  164. Art Deco says:
    @Not Raul

    No, it’s not guess work. The character with the code name had the same properties and traveling itinerary as Hiss. Even Navasky’s minion acknowledges it had to be someone in Hiss’ party. That aside, you have three sets of sources which identify him as a perpetrator. You’re investing in a stupid thesis. You need to figure out another hobby.

    • Replies: @Not Raul
  165. Art Deco says:
    @Not Raul

    Ellsberg sacrificed a lucrative career to inform the public.

    No, he traded a position working for public agencies and NGOs (which had agreeable but bounded compensation) for the lecture circuit. Morton Halperin has actually been gainfully employed all these years, btw.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Not Raul
  166. Art Deco says:
    @JMcG

    I think even Tony Hiss would be more circumspect in his stated opinions.

  167. Not Raul says:
    @Art Deco

    Ellsberg lived in Malibu at the time he informed the public.

    He was making a good living.

    And he traded that for a high likelihood of spending many years in prison.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  168. Not Raul says:
    @Art Deco

    No, that’s just the opinion of someone who wants desperately for people to believe that Hiss is guilty.

    VERONA doesn’t actually show that Hiss was a spy.

    https://lists.h-net.org/cgi-bin/logbrowse.pl?trx=vx&list=H-HOAC&month=0402&week=d&msg=xNHNTBXH/R4MtLwM/mHm7w&user=&pw=

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    , @Art Deco
  169. Art Deco says:
    @Not Raul

    He spent no time in prison.

    • Replies: @Not Raul
  170. Art Deco says:
    @Not Raul

    No one is desperate here except you. I don’t know why you invest in this. Hiss guilt has been established for 40 years and it is something the red-haze press accepted a generation ago, bar a few people like Victor Navasky who were out on a limb on the issue and couldn’t bear to back down.

    A discussion of what VENONA shows is here. Again, it was supplementary confirmation to the already existing body of evidence convicting Hiss.

    http://www.johnearlhaynes.org/page63.html

    You’re wasting your life with this stupid thesis.

  171. Art Deco says:
    @Not Raul

    No one is desperate here except you. I don’t know why you invest in this. Hiss guilt has been established for 40 years and it is something the red-haze press accepted a generation ago, bar a few people like Victor Navasky who were out on a limb on the issue and couldn’t bear to back down.

    A discussion of what VENONA shows is here. Again, it was supplementary confirmation to the already existing body of evidence convicting Hiss.

    http://www.johnearlhaynes.org/page63.html

    You’re wasting your life with this stupid thesis.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Not Raul
  172. Not Raul says:
    @Art Deco

    Your reading comprehension is not impressive.

    I never said that he spent time in prison. I said that he faced a high likelihood of spending many years in prison.

    Perhaps he would have spent time in prison if it hadn’t been for Nixon’s plumbers’ bungled Ellsberg break-in.

  173. Not Raul says:
    @Art Deco

    I’m not “wasting my life”.

    What’s wrong with doing a little research?

    It’s telling that, when you respond to me, you make defamatory attacks on my character. If you had a strong case, such attacks would be unnecessary. They are obviously a diversion from your weak case.

    The link you sent was laughable chain mail type stuff.

    You won’t change my mind, and nothing would change yours, so let’s just agree to disagree.

    I would never be so presumptuous as to tell you to “find another hobby”, just don’t expect me to continue to waste time indulging you.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  174. Art Deco says:
    @Not Raul

    People have been doing ample quantities of research. You just don’t like their conclusions. The problem is yours, not theirs or mine.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
  175. @Achmed E. Newman

    I just have to wonder if the Chinese spies do it to keep their family safe back home, or do they really believe the bullshit?

    The former is not at all the case, as this is not your Daddy’s Red China. The latter is likely not true either, but I don’t know what you mean by “the bullshit” I think they want China to do well but aren’t like your mid-20th-century Americans with starry eyes about Soviet Communism either.

    I’m of the opinion they do it for some decent money, that’s all.

    Respectfully, I’ll have to disagree with you on the last assertion. There is some sort of psychological or ethinic element to it. Keep in mind that there’s still at least a couple of Russian spies in prison who got paid in the six figures back in the 80s, and I seriously doubt money was the first thing on their mind.

  176. Dissident says:
    @kaganovitch

    Joseph,(as in Egypt and Pharaoh) is as Old Testament a name as there is. It is very common among Jews – I have at least a dozen in my extended family.

    I agree concerning the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) origin of the name Joseph (Hebrew: Yoseph), and its prevalence among Jews (even the most Judaically devout).

    I would just note that I am of the belief that a Jew should not, without qualification, use the term Old Testament to refer-to what we know to be the Hebrew Bible (Hebrew: Tanakh).

    I consider this consistent with my position that no one should unironically or without careful qualification use terms such as racist, fascist or White Supremacist, or use gender (which is a linguistic construct) to the refer to the biological reality of sex (as in male or female). Similarly, with regard to the word gay in the unfortunately now-standard usage as a reference to brazen, buggering Sodomites and their antics and perversions*. Such usage should at least be capitalized.

    *As distinct from individuals who merely have homoerotic proclivities, or even those who may– discretely— act-upon such proclivities.

    Choice of language is significant, instructive and consequential.

  177. Dissident says:
    @Jack D

    According to this link on Unz (surely an impeccable source) Kissinger’s Hebrew name is Avraham ben Elazer (sp), Abraham son of Eliezer.

    Elazer and Eliezer are two separate, distinct names.
    JackD, earlier in thread:

    Now in some cases there was an exact American equivalent, so Josef would be Joseph but in many cases there wasn’t. You didn’t want your kid to be registered as Faivel or Reeven, etc. – too ethnic. And whoever wrote this list for some reason sprinkled in a lot of Scottish names. So you would look at this list and Faivel would become Philip and Reeven would become Irving and Srul would become Isadore and Moshe would become Morris and Leib would become Louis and so on.

    If Joseph is to be considered “an exact American equivalent” for Yoseph, then shouldn’t the following follow?

    Reuven = Reuben
    Yisroel (which “Srul” is a diminutive of”) = Israel
    Moshe = Moses

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