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People are not equal in death, either. Some deaths are more newsworthy than others. The media and politicians love spectacular acts of terror, fires, disaster, the death of the wealthy and privileged, a death conducive to a cause. Such is the death of 300 passengers and crew of the Malaysian airliner flight 17 in the crash in Donbass, near Russian-Ukrainian border. Their deaths, regrettable as they were, are deemed to be of much greater importance, or at least newsworthiness than those of some ten thousand local people killed by the indiscriminate shelling of Donbass towns by Kiev regime troops, or that of a million Arabs. It is conducive to the cause of pushing Russia into a corner.

The US and its allies wanted Russia branded with a scarlet letter. They manoeuvred Putin into a no-win situation: appear submissive or appear a mass murderer. Heads I win, tails you lose. They introduced into the UN Security Council a draft resolution on the formation of a special tribunal for the crashed Malaysian liner, containing a reference to Chapter VII, the deadliest of all, dealing with “threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression” and authorising use of force. If such a resolution would pass, it would mean Russia gave up its sovereignty. Even in the unlikely case of fair trial, the impact of such a submission would be huge. And the trial would be by a hostile court for whom Truth Is No Defence.

It would be a miracle for Russia to escape condemnation at such a court. You say, but Russia is clearly innocent in the disaster. So what? These guys are not after truth at all – they hanged Saddam, they brutalised Qaddafi, they keep Palestinians locked in Gaza, they want to destroy and subjugate strong-minded Russia. And what would be a better gambit than a resolution with the magic words “Chapter VII”. Their magic can unleash the dogs of war.

However the worst consequence would be the surrender of Russian sovereignty. If they accepted this, they could be trampled upon at will. No great state ever agreed to be tried and judged. This is a sign of “limited sovereignty”, of submission to supreme authority.

The US never did. The US did not agree to join the International Criminal Court, so its citizens could never be tried. There were a hundred cases in which the US could and should have been brought to trial, but it never happened.

As I write this, the sad anniversary of Hiroshima reminds us of the greatest crime of the last century, never brought to trial, but it happened a long time ago.

In 1980s the US mined harbours of Nicaragua, and in 1986 the ICJ (International Court of Justice) found the US guilty. The US refused to comply. They did not recognise the Court’s right to judge them.

In 1989 they invaded Panama, kidnapped its president and locked him up in the dungeon of Barad Dur, Florida. The majority of the Security Council voted for the resolution condemning the invasion, in clear and unambiguous language: “The Security Council …strongly deplores the intervention in Panama by the US Armed Forces which constitutes a fragrant violation of the international law and demands immediate cessation of the intervention” but the US and its allies vetoed the resolution.

Since then, there have been many wars and invasions, but the US never agreed to be judged, always refused to comply with judgements and vetoed any draft implying a check upon its sovereignty.

Now, all of a sudden, they have become adepts of international law.

It would be a deadly error for the Russians to submit. Such tribunals are highly political, and they decide as they are ordered. The Russians had recently had an unpleasant experience: they agreed to a tribunal in the Hague to arbitrate with the run-away oligarchs who claimed Putin had stolen their hard-earned winnings. They thought their case was so clear, and they believed in the impartiality of the tribunal. They were surprised when the Hague tribunal ordered them to pay fifty billion dollars to the fugitives. They are not likely to step on the same rake a second time.

Poets describe such tribunals better than lawyers: “I’ll be judge, I’ll be jury… I’ll try the whole case, and condemn you to death”, in the words of Lewis Carroll.

Russia vetoed the draft, and there was a deafening media scream condemning Russia for non-compliance. None of these screamers bothered to demand US compliance in a single case of transgression. They knew it would not work. Not only the US: even the smaller Jewish state of Israel has never agreed to face a tribunal.

Why does Israel refuse? Justice is a great concept, and Jews are natural born lawyers, so the Jews know: a judge can always rule the way he finds fit and find reasons for the judgment he likes.

The law is so quirky, and changes so fast! Fifty years ago, an American would get a jail sentence for having sex with a person of a different race or the same sex. Nowadays, race is no objection, but a woman of 30 gets 22 years in jail for her amorous affair with three 17-year old kids in Florida. Why, she would get less if she were to kill them.

Vladimir Lenin, a lawyer by education, considered the courts and lawyers to be a tool of the ruling class. He did not believe in objective justice. Indeed, the judges do the will of the rulers. As the rulers want to find Russia guilty, so they will, given a chance.

ORDER IT NOW

Granting all that, what actually happened in the air over Donetsk? There are many versions: it was a bomb planted on board the plane, the plane was hit by a ground-to-air-missile, it was shot down by an fighter jet. There are complicated conspiracy versions aplenty, combining these causes, that would provide strong competition to 9/11. The more elaborate versions connect this crash with the mysterious disappearance of Malaysian Airlines flight 370 a few months earlier.

There is no doubt that the Russians did not want to hit the passenger airliner. The Donetsk rebels could not, for this feat of hitting a plane flying at such altitude is above their grade. It is said that Kiev regime, or the then lord of Dnepropetrovsk, the Chabad tycoon Kolomoysky did it in order to implicate Russians, but I doubt that.

There are witnesses to the flight of a Ukrainian Su-25 jet fighter based in Dnepropetrovsk that possibly could have shot down the airliner, believing it was the Russian airliner Rossiya carrying President Putin. They give even the pilot’s name: captain Vladislav Voloshin.

Alternatively, there are witnesses that saw a ground-to-air missile battery belonging to Kiev or even to the rebels (which is quite unlikely: they are not that sophisticated). Who knows the truth? Such things happen in wartime, and that was a time of intensive warfare between the rebels and the Kiev regime.

I’ll tell you an old soldier’s tale. In 1973 my battalion of Israeli paratroopers seized the Egyptian Ataka Heights, in the desert between Suez Canal and Nile Valley. We had sent a group of our best fighters out for a reconnaissance raid. A friend of mine took command. It was a dark night in October. On their way back, my friend forgot to signal his return, and our sentries opened fire. My friend and three soldiers were killed. Friendly fire is not a rare thing. If friends die of friendly fire, strangers who got into wrong place in the wrong time are also likely to suffer.

I would not blame anybody in the plane disaster, excepting those who had sent the plane over the fighting zone – Kiev or Dnepropetrovsk flight dispatchers.

Neither the Ukrainian nor Russian SAM operators, nor the rebels wanted to shoot down a civilian aircraft. Even if the Ukrainian jet fighter downed the plane, he did it without understanding the nature of the target. But in war, things happen. In 1988, the Americans shot down a civilian Iranian airliner Airbus A-300. 300 people were killed, including 52 women and 66 children – same as in the Donetsk tragedy.

Initially, the Americans denied their responsibility – they said the aircraft flew in a forbidden area, and the pilot did not respond to friend/foe request. President Reagan acquitted the commander of the cruiser that shot down a civilian airliner. Later it turned out, the airliner flew at a permitted altitude, gave the right responses to the query, but the ship’s missile defence system, the Aegis, misinterpreted the signals, and the captain pushed the red button.

In February 1973, Israel shot down a Libyan civilian airliner and killed more than a hundred passengers. The airliner strayed from its route during a sandstorm and Israeli fighter-interceptors shot it down. Israelis said the flag of Libya looked similar to the flag of Egypt, or the plane could be hijacked by terrorists, for it flew towards Israel … In the end, Israel has been deemed guilty, the state never conceded its guilt but paid for the insurance.

In these two cases, there was no real war, even though it was a tension in the area. But Donbass has had a full-scale war at the time. Anyone of the combatants could bring down the ill-fated aircraft, mistaking it for an enemy – if they had technical means.

The sloppy Ukrainians could do it even in peace time out of sheer recklessness as they downed the Siberia flight from Tel Aviv to Novosibirsk ten years ago. To this very day the Ukrainians haven’t admitted their fault.

Conspiracy theories can be useful – they calm media-induced frenzy. But I would not take them seriously. At war, the qui prodest rule is not working. People and planes can be destroyed just by chance. Israel was a beneficiary of the tragedy, as it diverted the world’s attention from the bloody war in Gaza. Kolomoysky, an Israeli citizen, fiery Zionist, a tycoon and the ruler of Dnepropetrovsk, a man capable of anything, was a man partly responsible for the crash, as his dispatchers ordered the liner to lower its altitude, and the captain Vladislav Voloshin was under his command. But this does not mean that Zionists downed the plane.

I am certain the Russians weren’t knowingly involved, for they opened all their secret communications for the investigators to see. If they were involved, the Americans would see it via their satellites, and they would spread the word right away. But the US keeps mum; they did not present their data. Nor did the Kiev regime: they sit on the recordings of the dispatchers with the plane. Will they publish their records? I wonder.

One thing is certain – peace be upon the victims. Allah Yerham, Lord have mercy on them, as our Arab brothers say in such cases. Anton Chekhov, the playwright, said: a gun hanging on the wall in the first act will be shot by the last act. So is a resolution referring to Chapter VII. Good that the Russians had guts to veto the draft and postponed a war for another time. Otherwise, we would have to ask for the Lord’s mercy on great many people.

First published at the Unz Review

Israel Shamir can be contacted at adam@israelshamir.net

 
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  1. Tom_R says:

    SOVEREIGN IMMUNITY PRECLUDES INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNALS EXCEPT BY TREATY.

    Thanks for the excellent article, Sir. You are so very right in almost everything you said. Russia would be stupid to agree to this and should veto it.

    I would like to add that under the doctrine of sovereign immunity, each nation is immune from the rulings and the Courts of the other (excluding acts of war, which are acts of aggression).

    As far as the International Criminal Court is concerned, it was vested with jurisdiction under the Rome Statute and only countries that have ratified that treaty (and agreed to be bound by the ICC) are bound by its rulings.

    Neither the US nor Russia have ratified the Rome Treaty, so the ICC has no jurisdiction over them,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court

    Similarly, the Nuremberg Court was without jurisdiction since Nazi Germany never agreed to submit to its jurisdiction prior to WW2 (by treaty) and what Hitler did (even if the allegations were true) did not constitute crimes at the time they were done under German law. Only the German people had the authority to try Hitler, not any outside tribunal. But since the Allies won WW2, they foisted upon the Germans a Kangaroo court they created unilaterally and which legitimized their own crimes.

    This Kangaroo Nuremberg court never tried the allies for THEIR crimes, such as the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima, etc.

    These international tribunals will gain more respect if they tried the biggest criminal in the international arena—Israel, for its crimes against the Gazans, and the ethnic cleansing of European and American whites by bribing their politicians to incite the alien invasion, etc.

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  2. Kiza says:

    I am most impressed by the ruthlessness with which United Nations are used to further Western political interests. If the UN behaves as an impartial international body that it is supposed to be, then there are howls of outrage from the US Congress. Simply, the West needs the UN only for several reasons:
    1) to spy on a target nation by filling up the UN international inspections of targeted nations with Western spies,
    2) to feed MSM with the speeches of the Western representatives against the enemies of the West (delivery at UN gives them more credibility),
    3) to create courts which judge the victims of the Western wars of aggression (blame the victim to turn the Western war into a “good war”) and so on.

    It is blatantly clear that this resolution was just another one that was prepared to fail. Its purpose was a propaganda attack on Russia:
    1) for Western MSM, here is proof that the Russians did it – they do not want to go to court therefore they are guilty (whose court/tribunal nobody in the West asks),
    2) howling from the US and its allies about another Russian Mr Niet, ambassador Vitaly Churkin.

    Finally, I totally agree with the author – the Kiev’s Air Traffic Control is at least as responsible for the shootdown as the party which actually shot the plane down. Where are the howls of outrage in the Western MSM for the redirection of a civilian airliner over a war zone? This is why the relatives of the passengers are not suing the Russian government, like the Western politicians, then the Ukrainian government. If it were ever proven that the Russians shot it down, Russia could be the second defendant. But, at the moment, the only party clearly responsible according to the international civil aviation law is Ukraine (a US puppet). The sole purpose of this resolution was to override the standing law with an ad-hoc kangaroo tribunal.

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  3. Rurik says:

    it’s a ‘trifle’

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    http://rinf.com/alt-news/editorials/the-mh17-pilots-corpse-more-on-the-cover-up/

    Those 30 mm round holes through it are bullet holes; they’re definitely not shrapnel holes
     
    from the article

    Kolomoysky, an Israeli citizen, fiery Zionist, a tycoon and the ruler of Dnepropetrovsk, a man capable of anything, was a man partly responsible for the crash, as his dispatchers ordered the liner to lower its altitude, and the captain Vladislav Voloshin was under his command. But this does not mean that Zionists downed the plane.
     
    You say "the captain", meaning apparently the captain of the Ukrainian Sukhoi, meaning apparently the captain of the Ukrainian Sukhoi who was under Kolomoysky's command and who shot MH17 out of the sky (thinking it was Putin's jet ?).


    Not the Zionists, but rather the Zionist

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrfKZUttEwE

    at least he said he was sorry

    "wanted to shoot down the one plane, hit another one"

    Why is an Israeli citizen who lives in Switzerland- in command of the military and airspace of Ukraine?! Another example I guess of Victoria Nuland's export of "democracy".


    Conspiracy theories can be useful – they calm media-induced frenzy. But I would not take them seriously. At war, the qui prodest rule is not working. People and planes can be destroyed just by chance.
     
    And sometimes not by chance, but as a consequence of an assassination attempt on the last remaining obstacle to the Zionist's absolute domination of this planet. A domination that is apparent by all the treachery and lies and mass murder that they're allowed to get away with just like they're getting away with the MH17 mass murder.

    But then, I guess that's just a crazy 'conspiracy theory'

    You're a brilliant man Mr. Shamir. And you're right on about Russia vetoing the charade. But it seems like you're downplaying a terrible crime by some very bad actors who are still in power and if not held to account, will continue to commit these kinds of atrocities.
  4. Tom Welsh says:

    When will the United Nations set up a tribunal to judge those guilty of shooting down Iran Air 655? That happened in 1988 – over 25 years ago – under worse circumstances than the shooting down of MH17. Clearly worse: the Vincennes was illegally intruding into Iranian territorial waters, and the airliner was on its correct course at the correct time. I believe that subsequent investigation found that the USS Vincennes’ Aegis system functioned correctly: examination of computer records showed that the Iranian Airbus was correctly identified, which implies that the American weapons specialists hysterically misinterpreted their own computer displays.

    Vice President George H W Bush said, “I will never apologize for the United States — I don’t care what the facts are… I’m not an apologize-for-America kind of guy”. And the officers and men of the Vincennes received decorations.

    So if it is so important for the UN to conduct a tribunal into MH17, when will it hold such a tribunal into Iran Air 655? That atrocity happened quarter of a century earlier, and has never been properly investigated by an international court.

    Or are we to believe that the USA, as well as being “unique” and “indispensable”, is also above the law? That’s odd, for a state that was originally said to be founded as “a nation ruled by laws, not men”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @5371
    In addition to the three flights the blogger mentions, Aerolinee Itavia 870 in 1980 was another where the UNSC never considered any resolution in favour of an international tribunal.
    , @tbraton
    "Vice President George H W Bush said, “I will never apologize for the United States — I don’t care what the facts are… I’m not an apologize-for-America kind of guy”. And the officers and men of the Vincennes received decorations."

    Furthermore, the U.S. paid a lot less to the victims of the Iranian shootdown than we got from Qaddafi for the victims of the Lockerbie disaster. In other words, American lives are worth a whole lot more than Iranian lives
  5. unit472 says:

    To say there was ‘no war’ going on in the case if USS Vincennes shoot down of the Iranian jet is a bit of a stretch. In fact, the Vincennes helicopter had been fired on by Iranian gunboats and the Vincennes was in hot pursuit of those gunboats when the Iranian airliner appeared on the Vincennes radars. 13 months prior to this the US Navy Frigate Stark had been attacked by an Iraqi jet and hit with two Exocet missiles and 37 sailors killed. The Stark had been caught literally with its pants down as the Captain was in the head as the Iraqi plane approached and none of the ships weapon systems were activated to defend the ship. The Captain was recommended for court martial and the Executive and Tactical officers were given non judicial punishment and letters of reprimand ending their navy careers.

    It was against this backdrop that the Vincennes opened fire on the Iranian airliner which was like MH-17 overflying a war zone though not at civil airliner altitudes. The Vincennes was in error and the US government admitted its warship had mistakenly shot down the Iranian airliner and paid compensation to the people killed. If not a glorious day in US Navy history the US owned up to its responsibility.

    The Russians, OTOH, never do. Its always excuses, evasions and denials. Recovery of debris and bodies was even blocked by pot bellied militia gunmen who controlled the crash site. Hardly the sort of action one would take if Russia truly believed the plane had been downed by Ukrainian air force jets or missiles. Really the same pattern that was displayed after the Soviet shootdown of KAL 007 years before. There the Russians initially denied any involvement, hindered search and rescue operations and only turned the flight data and voice recorders 8 years later. They never paid compensation either.

    While one can always posit alternative explanations for an air crash were there are no survivors and eyewitnesses of varying degrees of reliability in the case of MH-17 the known facts overwhelmingly point to Russian backed militia men believing they had another Ukrainian military transport of the sort they had shot down in preceding days on their radar launched a missile at and even initially took credit for the shoot down until it was learned it was a civil airliner. Then the coverup and disinformation campaign began and access to the crash site denied. What could have been accepted as a terrible mistake has been turned into a criminal act by the Russian attempt to evade responsibility and Putin has, once again, made Russia a pariah state with his refusal to come clean.

    Read More
    • Replies: @5371
    You are either an amazingly credulous idiot, or a villainous liar. Take your pick.
    , @tbraton
    "The Vincennes was in error and the US government admitted its warship had mistakenly shot down the Iranian airliner and paid compensation to the people killed. If not a glorious day in US Navy history the US owned up to its responsibility."

    The fact of the matter is that, while, the U.S. paid the victims of the tragedy, which amounts to a acknowledgement of its responsibility, it never apologized for its action in downing the civilian aircraft. According to Wikipedia, "The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives, but never apologized or acknowledged wrongdoing."
    , @Anonymous
    What a lot of poppycock!
    The kind of diatribe the State dept would issue!

    The main thing to remember is that there are no photos of the BUK vapour trail, no one saw it period and they leave a definite recognisable trail for at least 15-20 minutes. The European Security services know that it was shot down by a missile to the right engine and then 30MM cannon fire at the cockpit area.
    If there was evidence to the contrary we would have the voice recordings from Ukraine air traffic control, recordings from the black box and what the American satellite saw. They tried to pull a false flag on Russia, that is the truth of the matter.

    From all of the evidence I have seen and heard I offer my explanation.
    MH-17 was deliberately sent over the conflict zone to implicate Donbas.
    An Su-25 was sent in pursuit, with the pilot possibly being told it was Putin's plane (quite similar at a distance).
    From a couple of kilometres the pilot fired an air-to-air heat-seeking missile which knocked out one engine on MH-17.
    It promptly did a near 180degree turn and lost altitude - either loss of power or pilot evasion/both. This brought MH-17 into cannon range and the fighter pilot finished it off - as shown by holes in cockpit.
    At this point the pilot would have made a positive ID, which is why, on return to base, he was shaken up and saying, "Wrong plane." According to the ground crew who defected to Russia.
    This must be a false flag ordered from the highest levels in Kiev and Washington.
    A twist is that if MH-17 hadn't "turned back" it would have crashed closer to the Russian border, or even in Russia, then all of the pre-parred Press releases would have seemed unassailable.
    I think that "they" tried to be too clever.

    I would not put my last Euro on it, but I bet that I am about right.
    Oh and why Malaysian Airlines? Well the Malaysian Government had been kicking up a fuss about MH-340 - so perhaps MH-17 was a warning to keep quiet, or lose more planes.
    Hundreds of planes traverse the Ukraine and any would have done, but MH-17 was chosen.
  6. Rurik says:
    @Rurik
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKGjOE_7bYI

    it's a 'trifle'

    http://rinf.com/alt-news/editorials/the-mh17-pilots-corpse-more-on-the-cover-up/

    Those 30 mm round holes through it are bullet holes; they’re definitely not shrapnel holes

    from the article

    Kolomoysky, an Israeli citizen, fiery Zionist, a tycoon and the ruler of Dnepropetrovsk, a man capable of anything, was a man partly responsible for the crash, as his dispatchers ordered the liner to lower its altitude, and the captain Vladislav Voloshin was under his command. But this does not mean that Zionists downed the plane.

    You say “the captain”, meaning apparently the captain of the Ukrainian Sukhoi, meaning apparently the captain of the Ukrainian Sukhoi who was under Kolomoysky’s command and who shot MH17 out of the sky (thinking it was Putin’s jet ?).

    Not the Zionists, but rather the Zionist

    at least he said he was sorry

    “wanted to shoot down the one plane, hit another one”

    Why is an Israeli citizen who lives in Switzerland- in command of the military and airspace of Ukraine?! Another example I guess of Victoria Nuland’s export of “democracy”.

    Conspiracy theories can be useful – they calm media-induced frenzy. But I would not take them seriously. At war, the qui prodest rule is not working. People and planes can be destroyed just by chance.

    And sometimes not by chance, but as a consequence of an assassination attempt on the last remaining obstacle to the Zionist’s absolute domination of this planet. A domination that is apparent by all the treachery and lies and mass murder that they’re allowed to get away with just like they’re getting away with the MH17 mass murder.

    But then, I guess that’s just a crazy ‘conspiracy theory’

    You’re a brilliant man Mr. Shamir. And you’re right on about Russia vetoing the charade. But it seems like you’re downplaying a terrible crime by some very bad actors who are still in power and if not held to account, will continue to commit these kinds of atrocities.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    @“wanted to shoot down the one plane, hit another one”

    Kolomoyski did it. That's the reason for the cover up and for the hysterical behavior of those who demand "justice". To divert attention from the implication of Israel. That's why K. was removed from the scene and not heard of ever since.

    "A report on Malaysian Airlines MH17 air disaster in Ukraine last year by a group of old-hand aviation security experts maintains that the Boeing might have been downed by an Israeli Python air-to-air missile....There are four air-to-air missiles that fit the description established by the experts, namely: French Magis-2, Israeli Shafrir, American AIM-9 and Israeli Python – all short-range...The Python is equipped with a matrix-imaging IR seeker. It enables a relatively moderate power warhead to effectively engage big aircrafts. The warhead is armed with a set of ready strike elements. Even more importantly, some open military sources suggest that in early 2000s a number of Sukhoi Su-25 assault fighter jets we refurbished to use fourth and fifth generation Python missiles, which look very similar to the Su-25’s standard air-to-air R-60 missile."
    http://www.rt.com/news/310039-mh17-israeli-missile-version/
  7. 5371 says:
    @unit472
    To say there was 'no war' going on in the case if USS Vincennes shoot down of the Iranian jet is a bit of a stretch. In fact, the Vincennes helicopter had been fired on by Iranian gunboats and the Vincennes was in hot pursuit of those gunboats when the Iranian airliner appeared on the Vincennes radars. 13 months prior to this the US Navy Frigate Stark had been attacked by an Iraqi jet and hit with two Exocet missiles and 37 sailors killed. The Stark had been caught literally with its pants down as the Captain was in the head as the Iraqi plane approached and none of the ships weapon systems were activated to defend the ship. The Captain was recommended for court martial and the Executive and Tactical officers were given non judicial punishment and letters of reprimand ending their navy careers.

    It was against this backdrop that the Vincennes opened fire on the Iranian airliner which was like MH-17 overflying a war zone though not at civil airliner altitudes. The Vincennes was in error and the US government admitted its warship had mistakenly shot down the Iranian airliner and paid compensation to the people killed. If not a glorious day in US Navy history the US owned up to its responsibility.

    The Russians, OTOH, never do. Its always excuses, evasions and denials. Recovery of debris and bodies was even blocked by pot bellied militia gunmen who controlled the crash site. Hardly the sort of action one would take if Russia truly believed the plane had been downed by Ukrainian air force jets or missiles. Really the same pattern that was displayed after the Soviet shootdown of KAL 007 years before. There the Russians initially denied any involvement, hindered search and rescue operations and only turned the flight data and voice recorders 8 years later. They never paid compensation either.

    While one can always posit alternative explanations for an air crash were there are no survivors and eyewitnesses of varying degrees of reliability in the case of MH-17 the known facts overwhelmingly point to Russian backed militia men believing they had another Ukrainian military transport of the sort they had shot down in preceding days on their radar launched a missile at and even initially took credit for the shoot down until it was learned it was a civil airliner. Then the coverup and disinformation campaign began and access to the crash site denied. What could have been accepted as a terrible mistake has been turned into a criminal act by the Russian attempt to evade responsibility and Putin has, once again, made Russia a pariah state with his refusal to come clean.

    You are either an amazingly credulous idiot, or a villainous liar. Take your pick.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Realist
    "You are either an amazingly credulous idiot, or a villainous liar."

    No, he can be and is....both.
    , @unit472
    Better than just being stupid or a willing participant in the cover up of mass murder.
  8. Realist says:
    @5371
    You are either an amazingly credulous idiot, or a villainous liar. Take your pick.

    “You are either an amazingly credulous idiot, or a villainous liar.”

    No, he can be and is….both.

    Read More
  9. Biff says:

    Not to take any side or give credit to anyone, but to paraphrase Putin shortly after the shutdown:
    “If kiev had not violated the seise fire, the plane would have not have been shot down”

    Read More
  10. unit472 says:
    @5371
    You are either an amazingly credulous idiot, or a villainous liar. Take your pick.

    Better than just being stupid or a willing participant in the cover up of mass murder.

    Read More
    • Replies: @5371
    If it was murder, it can only have been committed by an anti-Russian force. So you don't even have the capacity to keep your own story straight.
    , @annamaria
    Absolutely agree. The US must provide the intel collected over Ukraine during the mass murder. For now, the US admin uses the fake and provocative speculations of Mr. Hastings of Bellingcat fame. Mr. Hasting happens to be a fellow at the Atlantic Council headquartered in Washington DC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Council
    "The Atlantic Council creates a meeting place for heads of state, military leaders, and international leaders from both sides of the Atlantic. Recently, the Council hosted former NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen's first major US speech, in which he discussed issues such as Afghanistan, Russia, and the broader transatlantic relationship." Mr. Rasmussen is known for his vivid Russophobia and stupid lies.
    http://politicalvelcraft.org/2014/09/25/nato-secretary-general-concubine-anders-fogh-rasmussen-russian-forces-withdraw-from-ukraine-while-none-were-ever-there/
  11. 5371 says:
    @unit472
    Better than just being stupid or a willing participant in the cover up of mass murder.

    If it was murder, it can only have been committed by an anti-Russian force. So you don’t even have the capacity to keep your own story straight.

    Read More
  12. 5371 says:
    @Tom Welsh
    When will the United Nations set up a tribunal to judge those guilty of shooting down Iran Air 655? That happened in 1988 - over 25 years ago - under worse circumstances than the shooting down of MH17. Clearly worse: the Vincennes was illegally intruding into Iranian territorial waters, and the airliner was on its correct course at the correct time. I believe that subsequent investigation found that the USS Vincennes' Aegis system functioned correctly: examination of computer records showed that the Iranian Airbus was correctly identified, which implies that the American weapons specialists hysterically misinterpreted their own computer displays.

    Vice President George H W Bush said, "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy". And the officers and men of the Vincennes received decorations.

    So if it is so important for the UN to conduct a tribunal into MH17, when will it hold such a tribunal into Iran Air 655? That atrocity happened quarter of a century earlier, and has never been properly investigated by an international court.

    Or are we to believe that the USA, as well as being "unique" and "indispensable", is also above the law? That's odd, for a state that was originally said to be founded as "a nation ruled by laws, not men".

    In addition to the three flights the blogger mentions, Aerolinee Itavia 870 in 1980 was another where the UNSC never considered any resolution in favour of an international tribunal.

    Read More
  13. Alan says:

    If the Kiev coup had not occurred there would be no war. Crimea would still be part of Ukraine and the Donbass would still be part of Ukraine. Over a million people would not be displaced, many dead would still be living, many wounded and disabled would not be, and flight MH17 would not have been shot down. Those involved in the coup are the ones who are guilty, including the US organizers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @HA
    "If the Kiev coup had not occurred...flight MH17 would not have been shot down. Those involved in the coup are the ones who are guilty."

    You can start the blame clock whenever you like, and you may think it is a clever trick, but in that case, you're no different than those who choose to believe the history of America's dealings with the Muslim world began on the morning of September 11, 2001.

    , @Kiza
    MH17 shoot-down carries the fingertips of the Maidan snipers (shooting at both sides). It was not an accidental shoot-down (aiming for Putin's jet), because it is the same modus operandi as Maidan: sowing chaos.

    Where are:
    1) the air traffic control recordings?
    2) the US ELINT/SIGINT intercepts of the BUK targeting radar and rebel communications?
    3) the satellite images of the BUK movement from Russia to Ukraine and back?
    All those who claim that Russia shot-down MH17 please show some evidence after one year of media bull and kangaroo tribunals.

    Of course, it is the ones who start wars who are the most responsible. Due to the MSM screaming propaganda, it is easy to lose sight of the fact that Ukraine was a corrupt but peaceful country before the second US color revolution there.

    I repeat - second color revolution in 20 years or so - the US will not let go of Ukraine as long as there is US in its current form. I think this suggests what the solution for Ukraine problem is.

  14. HA says:
    @Alan
    If the Kiev coup had not occurred there would be no war. Crimea would still be part of Ukraine and the Donbass would still be part of Ukraine. Over a million people would not be displaced, many dead would still be living, many wounded and disabled would not be, and flight MH17 would not have been shot down. Those involved in the coup are the ones who are guilty, including the US organizers.

    “If the Kiev coup had not occurred…flight MH17 would not have been shot down. Those involved in the coup are the ones who are guilty.”

    You can start the blame clock whenever you like, and you may think it is a clever trick, but in that case, you’re no different than those who choose to believe the history of America’s dealings with the Muslim world began on the morning of September 11, 2001.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alan
    The "blame clock" is in your own imagination and not a "clever trick", again in your own imagination. The coup that started the events that had to follow have nothing to do with September 11, 2001 and nothing to do with "America's dealings with the Muslim world". No need to try to confound what is very simple.
    , @annamaria
    You are correct. The US had been implicated in financing the birth-pangs and growth of Al Qaida decades ago. And the involvement is ongoing.
    "How the US Helped Create Al Qaeda and ISIS:" http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/19/how-the-us-helped-create-al-qaeda-and-isis/
    Some history: "America, Oil, and War in the Middle East:" http://jah.oxfordjournals.org/content/99/1/208.full
    Up to date: "Obama’s “Regime Change” Strategy: How US Allies Aid Al Qaeda in Syria:" http://www.globalresearch.ca/obamas-regime-change-strategy-how-us-allies-aid-al-qaeda-in-syria/5467298
  15. Kiza says:
    @Alan
    If the Kiev coup had not occurred there would be no war. Crimea would still be part of Ukraine and the Donbass would still be part of Ukraine. Over a million people would not be displaced, many dead would still be living, many wounded and disabled would not be, and flight MH17 would not have been shot down. Those involved in the coup are the ones who are guilty, including the US organizers.

    MH17 shoot-down carries the fingertips of the Maidan snipers (shooting at both sides). It was not an accidental shoot-down (aiming for Putin’s jet), because it is the same modus operandi as Maidan: sowing chaos.

    Where are:
    1) the air traffic control recordings?
    2) the US ELINT/SIGINT intercepts of the BUK targeting radar and rebel communications?
    3) the satellite images of the BUK movement from Russia to Ukraine and back?
    All those who claim that Russia shot-down MH17 please show some evidence after one year of media bull and kangaroo tribunals.

    Of course, it is the ones who start wars who are the most responsible. Due to the MSM screaming propaganda, it is easy to lose sight of the fact that Ukraine was a corrupt but peaceful country before the second US color revolution there.

    I repeat – second color revolution in 20 years or so – the US will not let go of Ukraine as long as there is US in its current form. I think this suggests what the solution for Ukraine problem is.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    It was not an accidental shoot-down (aiming for Putin’s jet)
     
    I think you're right about that, because as the article mentions...

    Kolomoysky, an Israeli citizen... ... , his dispatchers ordered the liner to lower its altitude..
     
    Which suggests they knew who they were preparing to shoot down.

    this suggests what the solution for Ukraine problem is.
     
    That solution will happen when the dollar loses its reserve status. That is what the BRICS are tying to accomplish. God speed to them.
  16. Rurik says:
    @Kiza
    MH17 shoot-down carries the fingertips of the Maidan snipers (shooting at both sides). It was not an accidental shoot-down (aiming for Putin's jet), because it is the same modus operandi as Maidan: sowing chaos.

    Where are:
    1) the air traffic control recordings?
    2) the US ELINT/SIGINT intercepts of the BUK targeting radar and rebel communications?
    3) the satellite images of the BUK movement from Russia to Ukraine and back?
    All those who claim that Russia shot-down MH17 please show some evidence after one year of media bull and kangaroo tribunals.

    Of course, it is the ones who start wars who are the most responsible. Due to the MSM screaming propaganda, it is easy to lose sight of the fact that Ukraine was a corrupt but peaceful country before the second US color revolution there.

    I repeat - second color revolution in 20 years or so - the US will not let go of Ukraine as long as there is US in its current form. I think this suggests what the solution for Ukraine problem is.

    It was not an accidental shoot-down (aiming for Putin’s jet)

    I think you’re right about that, because as the article mentions…

    Kolomoysky, an Israeli citizen… … , his dispatchers ordered the liner to lower its altitude..

    Which suggests they knew who they were preparing to shoot down.

    this suggests what the solution for Ukraine problem is.

    That solution will happen when the dollar loses its reserve status. That is what the BRICS are tying to accomplish. God speed to them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    "That solution will happen when the dollar loses its reserve status."
    Perhaps it is a bit too much optimistic to suggest that the financial demise would bring a benign solution for the world.
  17. Seraphim says:
    @Rurik
    http://rinf.com/alt-news/editorials/the-mh17-pilots-corpse-more-on-the-cover-up/

    Those 30 mm round holes through it are bullet holes; they’re definitely not shrapnel holes
     
    from the article

    Kolomoysky, an Israeli citizen, fiery Zionist, a tycoon and the ruler of Dnepropetrovsk, a man capable of anything, was a man partly responsible for the crash, as his dispatchers ordered the liner to lower its altitude, and the captain Vladislav Voloshin was under his command. But this does not mean that Zionists downed the plane.
     
    You say "the captain", meaning apparently the captain of the Ukrainian Sukhoi, meaning apparently the captain of the Ukrainian Sukhoi who was under Kolomoysky's command and who shot MH17 out of the sky (thinking it was Putin's jet ?).


    Not the Zionists, but rather the Zionist

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrfKZUttEwE

    at least he said he was sorry

    "wanted to shoot down the one plane, hit another one"

    Why is an Israeli citizen who lives in Switzerland- in command of the military and airspace of Ukraine?! Another example I guess of Victoria Nuland's export of "democracy".


    Conspiracy theories can be useful – they calm media-induced frenzy. But I would not take them seriously. At war, the qui prodest rule is not working. People and planes can be destroyed just by chance.
     
    And sometimes not by chance, but as a consequence of an assassination attempt on the last remaining obstacle to the Zionist's absolute domination of this planet. A domination that is apparent by all the treachery and lies and mass murder that they're allowed to get away with just like they're getting away with the MH17 mass murder.

    But then, I guess that's just a crazy 'conspiracy theory'

    You're a brilliant man Mr. Shamir. And you're right on about Russia vetoing the charade. But it seems like you're downplaying a terrible crime by some very bad actors who are still in power and if not held to account, will continue to commit these kinds of atrocities.

    @“wanted to shoot down the one plane, hit another one”

    Kolomoyski did it. That’s the reason for the cover up and for the hysterical behavior of those who demand “justice”. To divert attention from the implication of Israel. That’s why K. was removed from the scene and not heard of ever since.

    “A report on Malaysian Airlines MH17 air disaster in Ukraine last year by a group of old-hand aviation security experts maintains that the Boeing might have been downed by an Israeli Python air-to-air missile….There are four air-to-air missiles that fit the description established by the experts, namely: French Magis-2, Israeli Shafrir, American AIM-9 and Israeli Python – all short-range…The Python is equipped with a matrix-imaging IR seeker. It enables a relatively moderate power warhead to effectively engage big aircrafts. The warhead is armed with a set of ready strike elements. Even more importantly, some open military sources suggest that in early 2000s a number of Sukhoi Su-25 assault fighter jets we refurbished to use fourth and fifth generation Python missiles, which look very similar to the Su-25’s standard air-to-air R-60 missile.”

    http://www.rt.com/news/310039-mh17-israeli-missile-version/

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    The spicy facts about Kolomojsky are his Israeli citizenship, his leadership position at the United Jewish Community of Ukraine, and his infamous collaboration with neo-nazis (see Odessa massacre). In short, Kolomojsky is a veritable image of a modern Zionist: "Kolomoisky also is believed to have purchased influence inside the U.S. government through his behind-the-scenes manipulation of Ukraine’s largest private gas firm, Burisma Holdings. Last year, the shadowy Cyprus-based company appointed Vice President Joe Biden’s son, Hunter Biden, to its board of directors. Burisma also lined up well-connected lobbyists, some with ties to Secretary of State John Kerry, including Kerry’s former Senate chief of staff David Leiter, according to lobbying disclosures. "Leiter’s involvement in the firm rounds out a power-packed team of politically-connected Americans that also includes a second new board member, Devon Archer, a Democratic bundler and former adviser to John Kerry’s 2004 presidential campaign. Both Archer and Hunter Biden have worked as business partners with Kerry’s son-in-law, Christopher Heinz, the founding partner of Rosemont Capital, a private-equity company.”
    According to investigative journalism in Ukraine, the ownership of Burisma has been traced to Privat Bank, which is controlled by Kolomoisky."
    https://consortiumnews.com/2015/03/24/ukraines-oligarchs-turn-on-each-other/
  18. Alan says:
    @HA
    "If the Kiev coup had not occurred...flight MH17 would not have been shot down. Those involved in the coup are the ones who are guilty."

    You can start the blame clock whenever you like, and you may think it is a clever trick, but in that case, you're no different than those who choose to believe the history of America's dealings with the Muslim world began on the morning of September 11, 2001.

    The “blame clock” is in your own imagination and not a “clever trick”, again in your own imagination. The coup that started the events that had to follow have nothing to do with September 11, 2001 and nothing to do with “America’s dealings with the Muslim world”. No need to try to confound what is very simple.

    Read More
    • Replies: @HA
    "The coup that started the events that had to follow have nothing to do with September 11, 2001...No need to try to confound"

    An analogy that most any 12-year old could understand is an attempt to confound?

    If you really believe that, it says a lot more about you than it says about this crisis.

  19. Ivan says:

    All the credible evidence indicates that a New Russia militia perhaps with some help from Russian units downed the airliner, thinking that they shot down a large Ukrainian plane. The Russians should have agreed to an international investigation which had the remit also of investigating why a civilian airliner was allowed to overfly a war zone. The people who lost their loved ones deserve some answers and be able to get along with their lives.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kiza
    "All the credible evidence indicates that a New Russia militia perhaps with some help from Russian units downed the airliner, thinking that they shot down a large Ukrainian plane. "

    For example?

    Are you referring to two Youtube videos posted by the Ukranian SBU on behalf of the US and quoted by all Western media? Is this the same SBU which took away the Air Traffic Control tapes and never published a minute from them?

    If this is credible for you then I have a tall metal tower in Paris to sell you. Cheaply.

    , @Seraphim
    All credible evidence indicate that the Ukrainian side is guilty. Those who sabotage the investigation are the self appointed investigators (who excluded the Malaysians, if you can imagine that). All indications are that they desperately try to conceal the truth.
    , @annamaria
    Actually, the facts and all credible evidence do not indicate what you have suggested.

    The reluctance of the US to provide any satellite data collected by the US over Ukraine during the tragic event speaks for itself. This reluctance means that either the US do not have an appropriate technology to detect the major event in an area of the US surveillance or the US admin does not like the collected data.
    "Obama Should Release MH-17 Intel:" https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/22/obama-should-release-mh-17-intel/
    And it does not help that the US administration used as the main evidence the speculations of the infamous Bellingcat: "Bellingcat founder Eliot Higgins is a proud fellow of the Atlantic Council, a well endowed think-tank developping NATO policy and its intellectual basis."
    "The MH-17 Propaganda War:" https://consortiumnews.com/2015/05/22/the-mh-17-propaganda-war/
    "Der Spiegel Apologizes to Readers over Coverage of Bellingcat MH17 Report:" http://sputniknews.com/analysis/20150609/1023137858.html

  20. annamaria says:
    @HA
    "If the Kiev coup had not occurred...flight MH17 would not have been shot down. Those involved in the coup are the ones who are guilty."

    You can start the blame clock whenever you like, and you may think it is a clever trick, but in that case, you're no different than those who choose to believe the history of America's dealings with the Muslim world began on the morning of September 11, 2001.

    You are correct. The US had been implicated in financing the birth-pangs and growth of Al Qaida decades ago. And the involvement is ongoing.
    “How the US Helped Create Al Qaeda and ISIS:” http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/19/how-the-us-helped-create-al-qaeda-and-isis/
    Some history: “America, Oil, and War in the Middle East:” http://jah.oxfordjournals.org/content/99/1/208.full
    Up to date: “Obama’s “Regime Change” Strategy: How US Allies Aid Al Qaeda in Syria:” http://www.globalresearch.ca/obamas-regime-change-strategy-how-us-allies-aid-al-qaeda-in-syria/5467298

    Read More
  21. annamaria says:
    @Rurik

    It was not an accidental shoot-down (aiming for Putin’s jet)
     
    I think you're right about that, because as the article mentions...

    Kolomoysky, an Israeli citizen... ... , his dispatchers ordered the liner to lower its altitude..
     
    Which suggests they knew who they were preparing to shoot down.

    this suggests what the solution for Ukraine problem is.
     
    That solution will happen when the dollar loses its reserve status. That is what the BRICS are tying to accomplish. God speed to them.

    “That solution will happen when the dollar loses its reserve status.”
    Perhaps it is a bit too much optimistic to suggest that the financial demise would bring a benign solution for the world.

    Read More
  22. annamaria says:
    @Seraphim
    @“wanted to shoot down the one plane, hit another one”

    Kolomoyski did it. That's the reason for the cover up and for the hysterical behavior of those who demand "justice". To divert attention from the implication of Israel. That's why K. was removed from the scene and not heard of ever since.

    "A report on Malaysian Airlines MH17 air disaster in Ukraine last year by a group of old-hand aviation security experts maintains that the Boeing might have been downed by an Israeli Python air-to-air missile....There are four air-to-air missiles that fit the description established by the experts, namely: French Magis-2, Israeli Shafrir, American AIM-9 and Israeli Python – all short-range...The Python is equipped with a matrix-imaging IR seeker. It enables a relatively moderate power warhead to effectively engage big aircrafts. The warhead is armed with a set of ready strike elements. Even more importantly, some open military sources suggest that in early 2000s a number of Sukhoi Su-25 assault fighter jets we refurbished to use fourth and fifth generation Python missiles, which look very similar to the Su-25’s standard air-to-air R-60 missile."
    http://www.rt.com/news/310039-mh17-israeli-missile-version/

    The spicy facts about Kolomojsky are his Israeli citizenship, his leadership position at the United Jewish Community of Ukraine, and his infamous collaboration with neo-nazis (see Odessa massacre). In short, Kolomojsky is a veritable image of a modern Zionist: “Kolomoisky also is believed to have purchased influence inside the U.S. government through his behind-the-scenes manipulation of Ukraine’s largest private gas firm, Burisma Holdings. Last year, the shadowy Cyprus-based company appointed Vice President Joe Biden’s son, Hunter Biden, to its board of directors. Burisma also lined up well-connected lobbyists, some with ties to Secretary of State John Kerry, including Kerry’s former Senate chief of staff David Leiter, according to lobbying disclosures. “Leiter’s involvement in the firm rounds out a power-packed team of politically-connected Americans that also includes a second new board member, Devon Archer, a Democratic bundler and former adviser to John Kerry’s 2004 presidential campaign. Both Archer and Hunter Biden have worked as business partners with Kerry’s son-in-law, Christopher Heinz, the founding partner of Rosemont Capital, a private-equity company.”
    According to investigative journalism in Ukraine, the ownership of Burisma has been traced to Privat Bank, which is controlled by Kolomoisky.”

    https://consortiumnews.com/2015/03/24/ukraines-oligarchs-turn-on-each-other/

    Read More
  23. tbraton says:
    @Tom Welsh
    When will the United Nations set up a tribunal to judge those guilty of shooting down Iran Air 655? That happened in 1988 - over 25 years ago - under worse circumstances than the shooting down of MH17. Clearly worse: the Vincennes was illegally intruding into Iranian territorial waters, and the airliner was on its correct course at the correct time. I believe that subsequent investigation found that the USS Vincennes' Aegis system functioned correctly: examination of computer records showed that the Iranian Airbus was correctly identified, which implies that the American weapons specialists hysterically misinterpreted their own computer displays.

    Vice President George H W Bush said, "I will never apologize for the United States — I don't care what the facts are... I'm not an apologize-for-America kind of guy". And the officers and men of the Vincennes received decorations.

    So if it is so important for the UN to conduct a tribunal into MH17, when will it hold such a tribunal into Iran Air 655? That atrocity happened quarter of a century earlier, and has never been properly investigated by an international court.

    Or are we to believe that the USA, as well as being "unique" and "indispensable", is also above the law? That's odd, for a state that was originally said to be founded as "a nation ruled by laws, not men".

    “Vice President George H W Bush said, “I will never apologize for the United States — I don’t care what the facts are… I’m not an apologize-for-America kind of guy”. And the officers and men of the Vincennes received decorations.”

    Furthermore, the U.S. paid a lot less to the victims of the Iranian shootdown than we got from Qaddafi for the victims of the Lockerbie disaster. In other words, American lives are worth a whole lot more than Iranian lives

    Read More
  24. Newsweek still has its outstanding report on the shoot down of the Iran airbus on-line.

    http://www.newsweek.com/sea-lies-200118

    One of the biggest coverups in our history was uncovered. The evidence makes one question this “accident” as our Navy’s captain was very aggressive in seeking a fight.

    Read More
  25. tbraton says:
    @unit472
    To say there was 'no war' going on in the case if USS Vincennes shoot down of the Iranian jet is a bit of a stretch. In fact, the Vincennes helicopter had been fired on by Iranian gunboats and the Vincennes was in hot pursuit of those gunboats when the Iranian airliner appeared on the Vincennes radars. 13 months prior to this the US Navy Frigate Stark had been attacked by an Iraqi jet and hit with two Exocet missiles and 37 sailors killed. The Stark had been caught literally with its pants down as the Captain was in the head as the Iraqi plane approached and none of the ships weapon systems were activated to defend the ship. The Captain was recommended for court martial and the Executive and Tactical officers were given non judicial punishment and letters of reprimand ending their navy careers.

    It was against this backdrop that the Vincennes opened fire on the Iranian airliner which was like MH-17 overflying a war zone though not at civil airliner altitudes. The Vincennes was in error and the US government admitted its warship had mistakenly shot down the Iranian airliner and paid compensation to the people killed. If not a glorious day in US Navy history the US owned up to its responsibility.

    The Russians, OTOH, never do. Its always excuses, evasions and denials. Recovery of debris and bodies was even blocked by pot bellied militia gunmen who controlled the crash site. Hardly the sort of action one would take if Russia truly believed the plane had been downed by Ukrainian air force jets or missiles. Really the same pattern that was displayed after the Soviet shootdown of KAL 007 years before. There the Russians initially denied any involvement, hindered search and rescue operations and only turned the flight data and voice recorders 8 years later. They never paid compensation either.

    While one can always posit alternative explanations for an air crash were there are no survivors and eyewitnesses of varying degrees of reliability in the case of MH-17 the known facts overwhelmingly point to Russian backed militia men believing they had another Ukrainian military transport of the sort they had shot down in preceding days on their radar launched a missile at and even initially took credit for the shoot down until it was learned it was a civil airliner. Then the coverup and disinformation campaign began and access to the crash site denied. What could have been accepted as a terrible mistake has been turned into a criminal act by the Russian attempt to evade responsibility and Putin has, once again, made Russia a pariah state with his refusal to come clean.

    “The Vincennes was in error and the US government admitted its warship had mistakenly shot down the Iranian airliner and paid compensation to the people killed. If not a glorious day in US Navy history the US owned up to its responsibility.”

    The fact of the matter is that, while, the U.S. paid the victims of the tragedy, which amounts to a acknowledgement of its responsibility, it never apologized for its action in downing the civilian aircraft. According to Wikipedia, “The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives, but never apologized or acknowledged wrongdoing.”

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  26. Kiza says:
    @Ivan
    All the credible evidence indicates that a New Russia militia perhaps with some help from Russian units downed the airliner, thinking that they shot down a large Ukrainian plane. The Russians should have agreed to an international investigation which had the remit also of investigating why a civilian airliner was allowed to overfly a war zone. The people who lost their loved ones deserve some answers and be able to get along with their lives.

    All the credible evidence indicates that a New Russia militia perhaps with some help from Russian units downed the airliner, thinking that they shot down a large Ukrainian plane. ”

    For example?

    Are you referring to two Youtube videos posted by the Ukranian SBU on behalf of the US and quoted by all Western media? Is this the same SBU which took away the Air Traffic Control tapes and never published a minute from them?

    If this is credible for you then I have a tall metal tower in Paris to sell you. Cheaply.

    Read More
  27. Seraphim says:
    @Ivan
    All the credible evidence indicates that a New Russia militia perhaps with some help from Russian units downed the airliner, thinking that they shot down a large Ukrainian plane. The Russians should have agreed to an international investigation which had the remit also of investigating why a civilian airliner was allowed to overfly a war zone. The people who lost their loved ones deserve some answers and be able to get along with their lives.

    All credible evidence indicate that the Ukrainian side is guilty. Those who sabotage the investigation are the self appointed investigators (who excluded the Malaysians, if you can imagine that). All indications are that they desperately try to conceal the truth.

    Read More
  28. annamaria says:
    @Ivan
    All the credible evidence indicates that a New Russia militia perhaps with some help from Russian units downed the airliner, thinking that they shot down a large Ukrainian plane. The Russians should have agreed to an international investigation which had the remit also of investigating why a civilian airliner was allowed to overfly a war zone. The people who lost their loved ones deserve some answers and be able to get along with their lives.

    Actually, the facts and all credible evidence do not indicate what you have suggested.

    The reluctance of the US to provide any satellite data collected by the US over Ukraine during the tragic event speaks for itself. This reluctance means that either the US do not have an appropriate technology to detect the major event in an area of the US surveillance or the US admin does not like the collected data.
    “Obama Should Release MH-17 Intel:” https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/22/obama-should-release-mh-17-intel/
    And it does not help that the US administration used as the main evidence the speculations of the infamous Bellingcat: “Bellingcat founder Eliot Higgins is a proud fellow of the Atlantic Council, a well endowed think-tank developping NATO policy and its intellectual basis.”
    “The MH-17 Propaganda War:” https://consortiumnews.com/2015/05/22/the-mh-17-propaganda-war/
    “Der Spiegel Apologizes to Readers over Coverage of Bellingcat MH17 Report:” http://sputniknews.com/analysis/20150609/1023137858.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivan
    The fact of the recording that showed the confusion of the Novorussia people when they realised that it was an airliner is a damning piece of evidence. The video of the parallel search of the remains is categorical enough for me. It is available on the internet somewhere.

    There is a principle of law going back to the Romans - the first thought is the true thought - that is applicable here. (I hope someone will furnish the original Latin.) All secondary redactions, explanations and conspiracy theories do not have the weight of the testimony of the first reports.

    I tend though to agree with Putin, the damned American interference in the constitutional order of the Ukraine, set the whole ball rolling. The Nulands and Kagans are just about the most despicable people imaginable, worse than the neo-Nazis by an order of magnitude. For they start fires in someone else's house, and wait to see how to profit from the conflagration.

  29. annamaria says:
    @unit472
    Better than just being stupid or a willing participant in the cover up of mass murder.

    Absolutely agree. The US must provide the intel collected over Ukraine during the mass murder. For now, the US admin uses the fake and provocative speculations of Mr. Hastings of Bellingcat fame. Mr. Hasting happens to be a fellow at the Atlantic Council headquartered in Washington DC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Council
    “The Atlantic Council creates a meeting place for heads of state, military leaders, and international leaders from both sides of the Atlantic. Recently, the Council hosted former NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen’s first major US speech, in which he discussed issues such as Afghanistan, Russia, and the broader transatlantic relationship.” Mr. Rasmussen is known for his vivid Russophobia and stupid lies.

    http://politicalvelcraft.org/2014/09/25/nato-secretary-general-concubine-anders-fogh-rasmussen-russian-forces-withdraw-from-ukraine-while-none-were-ever-there/

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    • Replies: @Avery
    If Neocons had _any_ evidence of involvement by Russia or Russian freedom fighters of Novorossiya, MSM would go on a 24/7 saturation news bombing.

    The liars need time to manufacture a plausible "results of thorough investigation" story to hint that either Russia or NovoRussians were possibly, peripherally, perhaps,....involved through the cousin of the uncle of the distant relative who met this Russian guy in a Ukrainian bar once.

    They can't lodge any hard accusations, because it can be easily debunked, and they'll lose the PR match for this tragedy.
    So they accuse by vague hints and implication.
    It's their MO.
  30. Avery says:
    @annamaria
    Absolutely agree. The US must provide the intel collected over Ukraine during the mass murder. For now, the US admin uses the fake and provocative speculations of Mr. Hastings of Bellingcat fame. Mr. Hasting happens to be a fellow at the Atlantic Council headquartered in Washington DC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Council
    "The Atlantic Council creates a meeting place for heads of state, military leaders, and international leaders from both sides of the Atlantic. Recently, the Council hosted former NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen's first major US speech, in which he discussed issues such as Afghanistan, Russia, and the broader transatlantic relationship." Mr. Rasmussen is known for his vivid Russophobia and stupid lies.
    http://politicalvelcraft.org/2014/09/25/nato-secretary-general-concubine-anders-fogh-rasmussen-russian-forces-withdraw-from-ukraine-while-none-were-ever-there/

    If Neocons had _any_ evidence of involvement by Russia or Russian freedom fighters of Novorossiya, MSM would go on a 24/7 saturation news bombing.

    The liars need time to manufacture a plausible “results of thorough investigation” story to hint that either Russia or NovoRussians were possibly, peripherally, perhaps,….involved through the cousin of the uncle of the distant relative who met this Russian guy in a Ukrainian bar once.

    They can’t lodge any hard accusations, because it can be easily debunked, and they’ll lose the PR match for this tragedy.
    So they accuse by vague hints and implication.
    It’s their MO.

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  31. HA says:
    @Alan
    The "blame clock" is in your own imagination and not a "clever trick", again in your own imagination. The coup that started the events that had to follow have nothing to do with September 11, 2001 and nothing to do with "America's dealings with the Muslim world". No need to try to confound what is very simple.

    “The coup that started the events that had to follow have nothing to do with September 11, 2001…No need to try to confound”

    An analogy that most any 12-year old could understand is an attempt to confound?

    If you really believe that, it says a lot more about you than it says about this crisis.

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  32. denk says:

    *The US containment policy against China includes not only holding of old alliances but a creating of new. In the recent strategy Washington pledges to strengthen cooperation with six long-standing allies: Australia, Japan, New Zealand, the Philippines, the Republic of Korea, Thailand and lists eight new partners: Bangladesh, Brunei, India, Indonesia, Malaysia, Micronesia, Pakistan, Singpore, Vietnam. With help of its Asian allies the US are going to seal off the PLA Navy in South China Sea and prevent its moving in operations space.*

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-us-china-standoff-in-the-indo-asia-pacific-region/5466235

    for the past two decades,
    the unitedsnake has been trying to coax, arm twist asean into an anti chinese posse.
    ph was an easy one, it has never been able to wring free from the snake’s clutch [1]. sg is the base of murkkan’s latest littoral battleships targetting china.
    thailand’s former pm yingluck who’s very cozy with china was outsted by a wave of yellow shirt *swarming adolescents*, with corruption charges hanging over her head.
    myanmars generals wetted their pants over gadaffi’s fate, whose gory execution was aired worldwide to send a msg to those who stray from washington’s consensus. after hillary *the enforcer* clinton visit to rangoon, the junta was thoroughly co-opted.
    did *the enforcer* whisper into the generals ears some thing like , *u’r either with me or…..gadaffi* ?
    rangoon has been very provocative at the border [2] after a visit from the cic of pacom, which is a big deal. may be just a coincidence ;-) ?

    malaysia, being the last man standing in asean who defy the zwo , is currently subject to an intensive media blitz led by the WARsj, its aussie sidekick and an *investigative website ,*the sarawak report*, run by surprise surprise, a perfidious albion.[3] its mission is to *expose the highly corrupted political scene in malaysia* [sic]

    while the charges focus on najib’s alleged massive corruption, malaysia’s real *crime* has alway been its relative independence from washington’s dictat as compared to other asean countries, espeicially the likes of ph. the ultimate sin is kl’s flirting with beijing inspite of washington’s threat and warning.

    after washington’s man in kl, anwar failed to unseat najib in the 2013 election [4],
    came the official visit by chinese prez xi jing ping in oct 13, xi had a great time in kl with pm najib and ex pm dr mahathir [5]
    dr mahathir has always been a thorn in washington’s side, not to mention his running feud with george *the vulture* soros .
    grrrr, this the kind of stuff that send the snake straining at its leash !
    the rest is history !

    less than six months after xi’s party in kl, malaysia’s never ending woes started.
    first came mh370, followed by mh17, then an airasia airliner clash, a helicopter which exploded in mid air. last month another mh airliner nearly bite the dust.

    right after the rare earthquake that hit sabah, there appeared to be a marked change in kl’s position on scs. kl is currently reeling from the warsj led media campaign, meanwhile its increasingly singing to washington’s tune .
    must be another coincidence ;-)

    p.s.
    this isnt o.t.
    the series of black ops target malaysia, russia, china collectively. !

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  33. Ivan says:
    @annamaria
    Actually, the facts and all credible evidence do not indicate what you have suggested.

    The reluctance of the US to provide any satellite data collected by the US over Ukraine during the tragic event speaks for itself. This reluctance means that either the US do not have an appropriate technology to detect the major event in an area of the US surveillance or the US admin does not like the collected data.
    "Obama Should Release MH-17 Intel:" https://consortiumnews.com/2015/07/22/obama-should-release-mh-17-intel/
    And it does not help that the US administration used as the main evidence the speculations of the infamous Bellingcat: "Bellingcat founder Eliot Higgins is a proud fellow of the Atlantic Council, a well endowed think-tank developping NATO policy and its intellectual basis."
    "The MH-17 Propaganda War:" https://consortiumnews.com/2015/05/22/the-mh-17-propaganda-war/
    "Der Spiegel Apologizes to Readers over Coverage of Bellingcat MH17 Report:" http://sputniknews.com/analysis/20150609/1023137858.html

    The fact of the recording that showed the confusion of the Novorussia people when they realised that it was an airliner is a damning piece of evidence. The video of the parallel search of the remains is categorical enough for me. It is available on the internet somewhere.

    There is a principle of law going back to the Romans – the first thought is the true thought – that is applicable here. (I hope someone will furnish the original Latin.) All secondary redactions, explanations and conspiracy theories do not have the weight of the testimony of the first reports.

    I tend though to agree with Putin, the damned American interference in the constitutional order of the Ukraine, set the whole ball rolling. The Nulands and Kagans are just about the most despicable people imaginable, worse than the neo-Nazis by an order of magnitude. For they start fires in someone else’s house, and wait to see how to profit from the conflagration.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kiza
    Another commentator strong on opinions and soft on facts: the MSM told him so, categorical video is somewhere on the Internet, the principle of law going back to Romans (ain't they all).

    It does not appear that you know much about anything and regularly keep asking for someone else to furnish support for your empty statements.

    If only the Western regimes would have all subjects such as you, they would never need to present any evidence, just post anonymously a few YouTube videos.
    , @5371
    Based on the principle you just endorsed, Poland started WW2 by attacking the Gleiwitz radio station, since they were the first to be accused of it.
    , @Seraphim
    "First thought, best thought." This was the phrase that poet Allen Ginsberg used to describe spontaneous and fearless writing, a way of telling the truth that arises from naked and authentic experience. It was not formulated in Roman Law, if that is what you mean to say.

    Anyhow the first thought was the one expressed by Michael Bociurkiw, who was the head of the OSCE team which was on the ground the next day and did the "parallel search" as you put it: "Very strong machine gun fire". THIS is more telling than the feelings aroused by watching the "confusion" of the Novorussians. It could not be a machine gun operated from the ground, it was a weapon mounted on a fighter jet. Period. It probably killed the pilot. And the "confusion" of the Novorussians is understandable. You can't watch such a spectacle with detachement, as Kolomoysky did, on record ("It's a trifle"!).
    Better to have second thoughts.
  34. Kiza says:
    @Ivan
    The fact of the recording that showed the confusion of the Novorussia people when they realised that it was an airliner is a damning piece of evidence. The video of the parallel search of the remains is categorical enough for me. It is available on the internet somewhere.

    There is a principle of law going back to the Romans - the first thought is the true thought - that is applicable here. (I hope someone will furnish the original Latin.) All secondary redactions, explanations and conspiracy theories do not have the weight of the testimony of the first reports.

    I tend though to agree with Putin, the damned American interference in the constitutional order of the Ukraine, set the whole ball rolling. The Nulands and Kagans are just about the most despicable people imaginable, worse than the neo-Nazis by an order of magnitude. For they start fires in someone else's house, and wait to see how to profit from the conflagration.

    Another commentator strong on opinions and soft on facts: the MSM told him so, categorical video is somewhere on the Internet, the principle of law going back to Romans (ain’t they all).

    It does not appear that you know much about anything and regularly keep asking for someone else to furnish support for your empty statements.

    If only the Western regimes would have all subjects such as you, they would never need to present any evidence, just post anonymously a few YouTube videos.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivan
    I have no time to engage in dueling sources, most of them dubious, short on facts but heavy with rationalisations, and easily available with a search engine. I have read almost all of it, Buk missiles, Sukhoi fighters, the Saker, changed flight paths, missing Greek or Armernian traffic controller, recovered memory of a repentant Ukranian operator, etc.

    Waste your time on it if you wish.

  35. 5371 says:
    @Ivan
    The fact of the recording that showed the confusion of the Novorussia people when they realised that it was an airliner is a damning piece of evidence. The video of the parallel search of the remains is categorical enough for me. It is available on the internet somewhere.

    There is a principle of law going back to the Romans - the first thought is the true thought - that is applicable here. (I hope someone will furnish the original Latin.) All secondary redactions, explanations and conspiracy theories do not have the weight of the testimony of the first reports.

    I tend though to agree with Putin, the damned American interference in the constitutional order of the Ukraine, set the whole ball rolling. The Nulands and Kagans are just about the most despicable people imaginable, worse than the neo-Nazis by an order of magnitude. For they start fires in someone else's house, and wait to see how to profit from the conflagration.

    Based on the principle you just endorsed, Poland started WW2 by attacking the Gleiwitz radio station, since they were the first to be accused of it.

    Read More
  36. annamaria says:

    “…they start fires in someone else’s house, and wait to see how to profit from the conflagration.”

    This is the best description of the neocons’ main strategy, criminal and devoid totally of morality. As for the first intuition (“the first thought is the true thought,”) it is doubtful that serious thinking can rely on that rule. Actually, the closest illustration of the problems with such thinking is cargo-cult mentality.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    The only reason for existence of empirical research is to check the "first thoughts."
  37. annamaria says:
    @annamaria
    "...they start fires in someone else’s house, and wait to see how to profit from the conflagration."

    This is the best description of the neocons' main strategy, criminal and devoid totally of morality. As for the first intuition ("the first thought is the true thought,") it is doubtful that serious thinking can rely on that rule. Actually, the closest illustration of the problems with such thinking is cargo-cult mentality.

    The only reason for existence of empirical research is to check the “first thoughts.”

    Read More
  38. Seraphim says:
    @Ivan
    The fact of the recording that showed the confusion of the Novorussia people when they realised that it was an airliner is a damning piece of evidence. The video of the parallel search of the remains is categorical enough for me. It is available on the internet somewhere.

    There is a principle of law going back to the Romans - the first thought is the true thought - that is applicable here. (I hope someone will furnish the original Latin.) All secondary redactions, explanations and conspiracy theories do not have the weight of the testimony of the first reports.

    I tend though to agree with Putin, the damned American interference in the constitutional order of the Ukraine, set the whole ball rolling. The Nulands and Kagans are just about the most despicable people imaginable, worse than the neo-Nazis by an order of magnitude. For they start fires in someone else's house, and wait to see how to profit from the conflagration.

    “First thought, best thought.” This was the phrase that poet Allen Ginsberg used to describe spontaneous and fearless writing, a way of telling the truth that arises from naked and authentic experience. It was not formulated in Roman Law, if that is what you mean to say.

    Anyhow the first thought was the one expressed by Michael Bociurkiw, who was the head of the OSCE team which was on the ground the next day and did the “parallel search” as you put it: “Very strong machine gun fire”. THIS is more telling than the feelings aroused by watching the “confusion” of the Novorussians. It could not be a machine gun operated from the ground, it was a weapon mounted on a fighter jet. Period. It probably killed the pilot. And the “confusion” of the Novorussians is understandable. You can’t watch such a spectacle with detachement, as Kolomoysky did, on record (“It’s a trifle”!).
    Better to have second thoughts.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivan
    It is the basis of the FIR, the First Information Report, that is given greater weight as evidence, over later investigations.
  39. Ivan says:
    @Kiza
    Another commentator strong on opinions and soft on facts: the MSM told him so, categorical video is somewhere on the Internet, the principle of law going back to Romans (ain't they all).

    It does not appear that you know much about anything and regularly keep asking for someone else to furnish support for your empty statements.

    If only the Western regimes would have all subjects such as you, they would never need to present any evidence, just post anonymously a few YouTube videos.

    I have no time to engage in dueling sources, most of them dubious, short on facts but heavy with rationalisations, and easily available with a search engine. I have read almost all of it, Buk missiles, Sukhoi fighters, the Saker, changed flight paths, missing Greek or Armernian traffic controller, recovered memory of a repentant Ukranian operator, etc.

    Waste your time on it if you wish.

    Read More
  40. Ivan says:
    @5371
    Based on the principle you just endorsed, Poland started WW2 by attacking the Gleiwitz radio station, since they were the first to be accused of it.

    Each incident has its own context.

    Read More
  41. Ivan says:
    @Seraphim
    "First thought, best thought." This was the phrase that poet Allen Ginsberg used to describe spontaneous and fearless writing, a way of telling the truth that arises from naked and authentic experience. It was not formulated in Roman Law, if that is what you mean to say.

    Anyhow the first thought was the one expressed by Michael Bociurkiw, who was the head of the OSCE team which was on the ground the next day and did the "parallel search" as you put it: "Very strong machine gun fire". THIS is more telling than the feelings aroused by watching the "confusion" of the Novorussians. It could not be a machine gun operated from the ground, it was a weapon mounted on a fighter jet. Period. It probably killed the pilot. And the "confusion" of the Novorussians is understandable. You can't watch such a spectacle with detachement, as Kolomoysky did, on record ("It's a trifle"!).
    Better to have second thoughts.

    It is the basis of the FIR, the First Information Report, that is given greater weight as evidence, over later investigations.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    The First Information Report was that of Bociurkiw. "Very strong machine gun fire" with the photo of the bullet holes.
  42. Seraphim says:
    @Ivan
    It is the basis of the FIR, the First Information Report, that is given greater weight as evidence, over later investigations.

    The First Information Report was that of Bociurkiw. “Very strong machine gun fire” with the photo of the bullet holes.

    Read More
  43. annamaria says:

    Sergey Lavrov gives interview to NewsAsia:
    “the call of the Security Council upon all countries to submit information which might have any relevance to the incident was basically responded only by Russia, who submitted the data from our radar station in the Rostov region which monitored the skies at that time. The Americans said that they did have images from their satellite, but never submitted them, never make them public. The same was true for the Ukrainians who were asked to provide recordings of the air controllers and between the planes up in the air in the area of incident.
    … we [Russian federation] also suggested to dispatch a Security Council mission to the area. All this was blocked, and unfortunately blocked by those very countries who now insist on creating the tribunal.”

    http://thesaker.is/sergey-lavrov-gives-interview-to-newsasia-transcript/

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  44. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @unit472
    To say there was 'no war' going on in the case if USS Vincennes shoot down of the Iranian jet is a bit of a stretch. In fact, the Vincennes helicopter had been fired on by Iranian gunboats and the Vincennes was in hot pursuit of those gunboats when the Iranian airliner appeared on the Vincennes radars. 13 months prior to this the US Navy Frigate Stark had been attacked by an Iraqi jet and hit with two Exocet missiles and 37 sailors killed. The Stark had been caught literally with its pants down as the Captain was in the head as the Iraqi plane approached and none of the ships weapon systems were activated to defend the ship. The Captain was recommended for court martial and the Executive and Tactical officers were given non judicial punishment and letters of reprimand ending their navy careers.

    It was against this backdrop that the Vincennes opened fire on the Iranian airliner which was like MH-17 overflying a war zone though not at civil airliner altitudes. The Vincennes was in error and the US government admitted its warship had mistakenly shot down the Iranian airliner and paid compensation to the people killed. If not a glorious day in US Navy history the US owned up to its responsibility.

    The Russians, OTOH, never do. Its always excuses, evasions and denials. Recovery of debris and bodies was even blocked by pot bellied militia gunmen who controlled the crash site. Hardly the sort of action one would take if Russia truly believed the plane had been downed by Ukrainian air force jets or missiles. Really the same pattern that was displayed after the Soviet shootdown of KAL 007 years before. There the Russians initially denied any involvement, hindered search and rescue operations and only turned the flight data and voice recorders 8 years later. They never paid compensation either.

    While one can always posit alternative explanations for an air crash were there are no survivors and eyewitnesses of varying degrees of reliability in the case of MH-17 the known facts overwhelmingly point to Russian backed militia men believing they had another Ukrainian military transport of the sort they had shot down in preceding days on their radar launched a missile at and even initially took credit for the shoot down until it was learned it was a civil airliner. Then the coverup and disinformation campaign began and access to the crash site denied. What could have been accepted as a terrible mistake has been turned into a criminal act by the Russian attempt to evade responsibility and Putin has, once again, made Russia a pariah state with his refusal to come clean.

    What a lot of poppycock!
    The kind of diatribe the State dept would issue!

    The main thing to remember is that there are no photos of the BUK vapour trail, no one saw it period and they leave a definite recognisable trail for at least 15-20 minutes. The European Security services know that it was shot down by a missile to the right engine and then 30MM cannon fire at the cockpit area.
    If there was evidence to the contrary we would have the voice recordings from Ukraine air traffic control, recordings from the black box and what the American satellite saw. They tried to pull a false flag on Russia, that is the truth of the matter.

    From all of the evidence I have seen and heard I offer my explanation.
    MH-17 was deliberately sent over the conflict zone to implicate Donbas.
    An Su-25 was sent in pursuit, with the pilot possibly being told it was Putin’s plane (quite similar at a distance).
    From a couple of kilometres the pilot fired an air-to-air heat-seeking missile which knocked out one engine on MH-17.
    It promptly did a near 180degree turn and lost altitude – either loss of power or pilot evasion/both. This brought MH-17 into cannon range and the fighter pilot finished it off – as shown by holes in cockpit.
    At this point the pilot would have made a positive ID, which is why, on return to base, he was shaken up and saying, “Wrong plane.” According to the ground crew who defected to Russia.
    This must be a false flag ordered from the highest levels in Kiev and Washington.
    A twist is that if MH-17 hadn’t “turned back” it would have crashed closer to the Russian border, or even in Russia, then all of the pre-parred Press releases would have seemed unassailable.
    I think that “they” tried to be too clever.

    I would not put my last Euro on it, but I bet that I am about right.
    Oh and why Malaysian Airlines? Well the Malaysian Government had been kicking up a fuss about MH-340 – so perhaps MH-17 was a warning to keep quiet, or lose more planes.
    Hundreds of planes traverse the Ukraine and any would have done, but MH-17 was chosen.

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  45. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Mr. Shamir- A very good overview on a subject apt too be smoke covered as its investigated.
    The USA has a tradition of such cover-ups in the case of air crashes. The internet is currently being purged of details and false items put out too cover up the changes.

    -’Since we are NOT allowed to consider sabotage, the next most likely cause is static electricity’
    -Official German Air Ministry Report on the Hindenburg Fire:
    After someone ratted out Goering holding his own inquiry, not connected too
    the official American/German one, that had already being told by both governments
    that they would NOT even consider it as any sort of attack. 1937-38.

    The Official Lakehurst inquiry managed too-’Lose’ the remains of a close space found battery, wristwatch and photoflash bulb-found back where the fire started, by moving it from a Navy base crime scene too a obscure New Jersey State police evidence locker- a very safe location as was already known from the Lindbergh Baby Case.
    All photo equipment on international flights by treaty at this time, went into the captains safe, when flying over land. This safe was in the control car of the Hindenburg almost 150 meters from the ignition point.

    So as we can show from this: There is a- ‘Tradition’ involved. One practised and developed. The effort too cover up the roots of it being just as great as covering up the more recent outrages.

    Some lives don’t matter, but the officially convenient lies of what happened are very vital. This started thousands of years ago as a marginal cannibal death cult in a stressed society ,won conversion via the sword-backing of a degenerating empires junta.

    This tradition now melds with these new variants. I watched it happen too my Mother.

    Thanx for your clear account. Mr. Shamir, We need such as much or more than ever.

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  46. Contraviews says: • Website

    Consider this. Could it be that the Ukrainian airforce were using overflying passengers plane as a cover ? Sort of Human Shield ? The Dutch Safety Board should definitely investigate this possibility. However I am afraid they won’t. To shrug this off as a case of mere “negligence” is wrong. This whole investigation by the Dutch is huge travesty of Justice.

    Read More
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