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Russia Vetoes "Genocide"

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I love Russia’s vetoes. Sparse, strong, hard hits, they mark the limits of the Empire’s power. They said “No”, and Zimbabwe remained at peace, its old maverick Robert Mugabe still alive and kicking and proposing Obama his hand in marriage. They said “No”, and Burma could grow at its own pace. They said “No”, and Syria… well, Syria still suffers immensely, but it was not destroyed by the Sixth Fleet. All US vetoes are similar, – usually for Israel; Russia’s vetoes are fewer and evenly spread. The recent Russian veto (last week) stopped misuse of this terrible cliché “genocide”, and this is a good thing. It would be good to ban this word altogether.

‘Genocide’ is a nasty invention. Just think of it: mankind lived for thousands of years, through raids of Genghis Khan and Crusades, through extermination of Native Americans, slave trade and WWI, happily butchering each other in millions, without being encumbered by the G word. This term was invented (or updated from Jewish traditional thought) by a Raphael Lemkin, a Polish Jewish lawyer, in the wake of Holocaust, in order to stress the difference between murdering Jews and killing lesser breeds. The word is quite meaningless otherwise.

The best flower of Europe, a million of the youngest and brightest were killed at Verdun – sad, but that’s not G. Young and old, women and men were incinerated in millions in the fiery furnaces of Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima – sorry, old chum, that’s not G. Millions starved to death in the brutal siege of Leningrad – well, you understand by now, that’s not G. It goes without saying that killing of five million Vietnamese or a million Iraqis were just “war is hell” business as usual.

In Israel, killing of five Jews by Palestinians has been qualified as G: the poor soldiers were murdered just because they were Jews. But killing of Palestinians by Jews is collateral damage. They were in the wrong place, in the wrong time, bad luck!

If so, why should one bother with G? This term was, and is a chosen weapon of war propaganda. Not surprisingly, Lemkin was a Cold War warrior, and he accused the USSR of multiple genocides: by providing Russian language education to natives of the Baltic states or by serving alcohol in a Muslim republic. No American misdeed would amount to G according to Lemkin, and according to the US reading of the G Convention, unless in an unlikely case of the US agreeing that it is guilty. European states say the US is not a participant to the G convention, for its many caveats amount to non-participation. However, the US speaks of G more often than most participants, usually in order to justify its intervention. The Big G became a mighty stick to unseat rulers and undermine regimes.

The G word is likely to cause more bloodshed, for a sad, rarely stated reason. If a victim of the crime is a nation, a tribe or an ethnic group, so is the criminal. Germans killed Jews, Turks killed Armenians, Hutu killed Tutsi etc. The moment you recognise G, you encourage the G of revenge. As the Jews considered themselves being the victims of G (this is an idea deeply ingrained in the Jewish tradition, though quite foreign to Christian thought) they tried to take revenge by poisoning millions of Germans. (They failed but never apologised).

Armenians provide another example of people seriously disturbed by G politics. Lemkin used the 1915 atrocities to dissimulate the purely Jewish idea of G, and the Armenians eventually embraced it. As the idea of G took its place in the law of the nations, the Armenian fighters began to seek and extract revenge from Turks – after fifty years at peace. G propaganda produced a terrible fruit in 1990-1992, when tens of thousands of Azeri (deemed “Turks” by their Armenian neighbours) were massacred and exiled “in revenge for the 1915 G”. A new generation of Armenians was poisoned by victimhood and revenge feelings, thanks to Lemkin and his followers.

A Genocide is not about past. It is about future. Innocent people will die, and die, and die, whenever this term is applied. Without the term, the Lethe will cover all. A good example is provided by Greeks. They suffered probably more than Armenians during the WWI, but as nobody applied the term G to “their” atrocities, they are not obsessed with revenge and live rather peaceably with their Turkish neighbours.

In Africa the concept of G was applied most vigorously by the Western neo-colonisers. You will not be surprised that no Westerner has ever been tried for G despite impressive results. Millions of chopped off hands and heads, but like in Raymond Chandler’s LA, “only darkies are tried.” Now Africa prepares to leave the ICC, the main dealer of the G politics. “Despite having received almost 9,000 formal complaints about alleged war crimes in at least 139 countries, the ICC has chosen to indict 36 black Africans in eight African countries.” – wrote David Hoille, a leading international lawyer.

ORDER IT NOW

No less authority than Christopher Black, the eminent international lawyer, proved beyond a shade of doubt that the familiar story of Ruanda genocide of Tutsi by Hutu was not only false, but had led to terrible revenge massacres of Hutu by Tutsi. And this story was utilised by Samantha Power and the interventionists of her ilk to bomb all over the world.

It is good that the nasty concept of genocide took a hit from the Russian veto. And now we can consider the particular case of Srebrenica.

The last thing I want and shall do it to tire you, my reader, with tedious Balkan stories of who slaughtered whom and where. If you want to know the gruesome details, read Diana Johnstone. I am sure they all tried their beastly best.

There is no reason to single out one party – that is, no good reason. The Yugoslav war, the war fought by Clinton against the Serbs, was a large social experiment: how do you sow discord among brothers (Proverbs, 6) and turn a multi-ethnic state into a warren of quarrelling communities. The result was satisfactory, for Clintons. The biggest US military base in Europe came into existence. A wealthy independent socialist state was broken into many miserable statelets; all of them applied for a place in the EU; Russia has lost its potential foothold on the Balkans.

The politics of genocide were played to its utmost extent in the Balkans, deligitimising one of the sides in the internal conflict. The Slavs were subjected to an international tribunal of total dishonesty and bias. Their leaders died in jail. No accusation of real genocide has ever been proven, but the West’s right to judge and decide has been affirmed.

There was a nice extra profit. The West asserted that its will for justice is stronger than its religious solidarity with Christians, right? Now every Muslim should remember that the West will side with Muslims, if they are persecuted, right? Wrong. The Eastern Orthodox Christians (such as Serbs, Russians, Bulgarians, Greeks) do not belong to the Western civilisation. They are as foreign to the Westerners as the Muslims are. Indeed, when the Crusaders fought for the Holy Land, they killed the local Christians, too, saying: “Kill them all and let God sort them out.” So there was no hindrance to side with Muslims against Christians as long as they are Eastern Christians, but by sleigh of hand, the Muslims could be tricked into believing in the Western objectivity.

This feature has been used now. The vetoed draft was a clever and mischievous trap. Such drafts rarely get to the stage of a vote, as the powers (P5, the Big Five, or Permanent Members of the UN Security Council, choose the name) usually do not use the unique power of UNSC resolutions for propaganda purposes. Otherwise, they could vex the US with drafts calling for Gaza freedom. Being prudent, P5 avoid such brownie points. Now they did it, anyway. The result was predictable: Russia could not let the Christian Serbs being singled out in the “You are the Villain” competition. This Russian veto has been presented as “Russia is the enemy of Islam”, with the explicit intention to send the Daesh beasts down the Russian trail and undermine internal Russian cohesiveness.

Russia is not an enemy of Islam. Muslim steppe riders were the co-founders of Russia, together with Viking warriors, Slav ploughmen, Finn forest dwellers. The Muslim Kazan gave its title to the Russian crown. Tatars and Kazakhs are the mainstay of Russia. Russians proved themselves as benevolent rulers, good advisers, reliable friends to Muslims of Central Asia and Caucasus. They had build schools, educated native engineers, modernised these countries.

However, Russia considers its duty to protect the Eastern Christians. In a way, they inherited this responsibility from the Byzantines. For this reason Russia heavily invested in the Holy Land and in Greece, liberated Bulgaria, Romania, Serbia, Moldova, Armenia, Georgia from the Turkish yoke.

In the terms of realpolitik, this policy has been extremely disappointing. Almost all the “liberated Eastern Christian” states eventually sided with Russia’s enemies, while the once-conquered Muslim states remained loyal to Moscow. Muslim Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and once-rebellious Chechnya are friends of Russians; so are Turkey and Iran.

The veto in the UNSC was supposed to protect Serbia from Western pressure, not to poke the Muslims. Remember that during the war, Russia was too weak to interfere and save Yugoslavia. Now Russia made its amends for 1999.

Hopefully, the Muslims will understand the Russian point. After all, the Turks and Azeris understood the Russian position on Armenia. In the recent commemoration of 1915 in Yerevan, Armenia, Putin was the only important guest – his French counterpart M Hollande made a brief appearance and flew away to Baku (to “Azeri Turks”, in Armenian parlance). Putin went there soon after an important and fruitful visit to Turkey, after an agreement with Erdogan. Visit to Armenia jeopardised this achievement, but Putin still did not shrink from the trip. Armenia for Russia is like Israel for the US. There is a very important Armenian diaspora in Russia, and the neighbours accept this reality like Israeli Arab neighbours accept the reality and inevitability of American support for Israel.

ORDER IT NOW

The Armenians and the Azeri soldiers marched together, one after another, on the Red Square on May 9 this year, approving the Russian position of the mediator and protector in the area. Perhaps it is a liability for Russia, but nobody promised them a rose garden.

Israel Shamir can be contacted at adam@israelshamir.net

 
• Category: Foreign Policy, History • Tags: Genocide, Russia, Serbia, Srebrenica 
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80 Comments to "Russia Vetoes "Genocide""

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  1. Regardless, there is such a thing as genocide, or at least, its attempt – when the goal is the elimination from existence of an entire people. Obviously the accusation is selectively applied and politicized. It is true that the word and concept of it as an especially heinous form of warfare is of more recent vintage. It is also true that it is about the future as well as recognition of the past. If the concept had been defined, it would at least have allowed the reality to be stated at the time, possibly restraining such wholesale policies. Orwell spoke of certain accurate words being abolished entirely, so that thought about certain things could not occur at all. It is necessary that language not just be accurate, with crimes not described by gentle euphemisms (enhanced interrogation instead of torture), but that it actually have words that describe the reality. Misused as it may be, for human beings are always making false accusations to try to gain advantage, the word genocide does have meaning and describes what some have sought to do regardless of whether they largely or only partly succeeded. Naturally, no one wishes to be accused of it.

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  2. I appreciated your critique of the use of the word “genocide”, but I disagree both with your assertion that Hutus did not try to massacre Tutsis (and the genocidaires were sheltered by foreigners afterwards, when the Tutsi were counter-attacking), and that Russia liberated its Orthodox brethren from under any yoke out of civilizational affinity. Christopher Hitchens once made the point that you cannot celebrate an ally of convenience against tyranny as being intrinsically good, when the thought patterns of that ally would lead to tyranny, as well, should he be given power over you. He made it with regard to the priests who hindered communists and fascists, but I think it holds for Russia as well, which has an adequately imperial past (which brought it into conflict with the Ottoman Empire in a Great Game and made involvement in Ottoman satrapies and dependencies a good strategy).

    It has been imperial towards its Orthodox brethren as well (which also number a Latin people, the Romanians who, nevertheless, see themselves civilizationally closer to Middle Europe), and its position derives, partially, from Moscow’s status as “the Third Rome” and its conflict with the Patriarch of Constantinople for preeminence among nominally equal autocephalic churches (each major country has its own Orthodox Patriarch, except for Moldova, nominally equal to each other, but some more than equal in practice).

    I cannot claim to have enough knowledge to speak with true conviction, but I would also disagree with your qualification of Russia’s relations with the Muslims of Central Asia, as well as that ridiculous Kumbaya story of Russia’s birth.

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  3. Good point about genocide victims counting more than, say, garden-variety victims of war–that never made sense to me.

    BTW, did you read your own link about the plot to poison Germans? Even the Israelis right after the war didn’t want to go along with it! And it wasn’t most of the community–it was a few crazy people.

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  4. folks may be familiar with the UN’s definition of genocide, which includes not only murder, but the attempt to eradicate a culture, a people’s history, their sense of themselves as a people, and so on.

    The attack on Whites today by Jews, Blacks, and sundry freaks who cannot abide the spectacular success of White civilization, the affirmative action to send Whites, especially White males out to pasture, the pending onslaught of White neighborhoods by the Feds to install blacks and whatevers in the midst of white communities…all paid for by White taxpayers….this is all genocidal per the UN definitions of genocide.

    So, the flags of the South must go, the bones of its leaders must be removed, and the Southern Memory must be declared unfit by the jewyorktimes.

    By the UN definition this is genocidal. Of course, the communist Shamir thinks it is great.

    Joe Webb

  5. @Moscow’s status as “the Third Rome” and its conflict with the Patriarch of Constantinople for preeminence

    There was never any “conflict for preeminence” between the Patriarch of All Russias and the Patriarch of Constantinople. The Metropolia of Kiev and All Russia, which moved to Vladimir and then Moscow after the destruction of Kiev by the Tartars, distanced herself from Constantinople which fell into the heresy of Unia and elected for the first time a Russian in 1448, but even then they continued to acknowledge Constantinople’s jurisdiction. The fall of Constantinople and of the Patriarchate into the Ottomans captivity, accentuated the distance. But only in 1589 the Moscow Metropolia was elevated with the approval of all the highest authorities of the Eastern Church to the rank of Patriarchate and given the lowest rank in the hierarchy of Patrarchates, after Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. As it is known, Peter the Great abolished the Patriarchate and which was reinstated after the February Revolution, to be kept unoccupied after the death of Patriarch Tikhon until its revival during the War. Canonically it remains in the same position as initially. It is Constantinople which claims a preeminence modeled on the Papal pretensions.
    It would be needless to say that Russia has not the “status of Third Rome” and in fact never claimed it.
    Both accusations are pieces of western propaganda for the consumption of the “future victims of Russian aggression” on a par with the Testament of Peter the Great.

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  6. There’s no instance recorded in history when anyone actually committed the crime of genocide as thus described. In other words, no individual that we know of both compassed the elimination of any people and actually carried it out. In no instance where a people actually disappeared – and those are legion and sometimes involved a lot of wilful killing, take the case of the native Tasmanians for example – can actual responsibility be brought home to any individual or small group. Meanwhile, if just attempting genocide is the same as effectuating it, is the same to hold good of other crimes? And as the blogger points out, most use of the word today is simply risible.

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  7. Hitchens? Give me a break. Chateaubriand once said that he didn’t understand the fuss that was made about Talleyrand and his exquisite manners, because before the revolution there were people like him on every street corner. In the same way, a high proportion of people who went to Oxford or Cambridge at the same time as Hitchens had his ability to glibly spout nonsense about any subject whatsoever in coherent sentences and with a confident manner. It didn’t imply actual knowledge or understanding of anything at all.

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  8. There are a couple of words which have lost all meaning through the totalitarian abuse by the Western propaganda machine. George Orwell was a 20th century writer, who correctly predicted the abuse of language, but he could never imagine how his 21st century compatriots will torture language. The Western bombers and killers become humanitarians, even the bombing itself becomes humanitarian, and any killing by victims of the West becomes a genocide.

    Thus, we have here a conniving little British UN resolution about the big G. This is the same Britain which bombed Bosnian Serbs and Serbian Serbs. It was not only a key party in every war in the Balkans, then one of the initiators of these wars, together with US and Germany. The ultimate crime is the starting of wars. This same Britain, with its centuries of the extermination of the enemies of its empire, accuses in the UN the same people it bombed, its victims, of being Genocidal all on the basis of a single revenge massacre of Srebrenica. It may be the Jews who officially invented the term shutzpah, but the British are certainly its masters.

    Naturally, this resolution was an attack on Russia, as Israel points out, not on Serbia. It was intended to deflect the Muslim anger at the West for the endless crimes of supporting Israel, towards Russia. To direct the terrorism of the Muslim extremists towards Russia. The ultimate goal of the Anglo-British policy, of course, is to weaken Russia, conquer it and then loot it. The same as the Western “Christian” Crusaders did to Byzantian Christians: rape, murder, destruction and endless pillaging.

    The same old British.

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  9. It’s a pleasure to recognise someone who knows about these things.

  10. Well, I liked his books. And he made some good points, though I didn’t really agree with him politically. Plus, an unabashed imperialist and elitist hesperophile is a pretty rare bird in this day and age.

  11. Ha, very interesting details on the Patriarchy. But, whether or not the Third Rome angle is propaganda, it is the accepted view of many of those Orthodox brethren in Eastern Europe, some of their clergy in the Patriarchate system and of Russians I have met. The politics of the interaction between Patriarchs, to the extent that they are reported in the lamestream media, also bear out this view, though you might argue it’s the papal pretensions. And the Third Rome thing is not a negative, in my view. Many cities in the world traditionally claim seven hills, like Rome (including Byzantium). The passing of the mantle from decaying power to rising one was pretty obvious in historical terms, so why not the spiritual focus?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_claimed_to_be_built_on_seven_hills

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  12. I guess. Constantinople was the center of the civilized world for at least a little while. The (temporal) Third Rome might more accurately be Paris in the later Middle Ages, and after that London and after that probably New York.

    Spiritually–depends on your faith, of course.

  13. Constantinople was the center of the civilized world for at least a little while.

    330 to 1453… a little while, indeed!

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  14. […] published in The Unz Review | Traduction : Maria Poumier […]

  15. A Genocide is not about past. It is about future.

    That’s all you need to know.

  16. As the idea of G took its place in the law of the nations, the Armenian fighters began to seek and extract revenge from Turks – after fifty years at peace.

    Not quite accurate:

    Operation Nemesis (Armenian: “Նեմեսիս” գործողութիւն Nemesis gortsoghut’iun) was a covert operation by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaktsutyun) carried out from 1920 to 1922, during which a number of former Ottoman and Azerbaijani political and military figures were assassinated respectively for their roles in the Armenian Genocide killings and the 1918 massacre of Baku Armenians. Shahan Natalie and Armen Garo are considered its masterminds.[4] It was named after the Greek goddess of divine retribution, Nemesis.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nemesis

    Soghomon Tehlirian (classical Armenian: Սողոմոն Թեհլիրեան; April 2, 1896–May 23, 1960) was an Ottoman Armenian who assassinated the former Ottoman Grand Vizier Talât Pasha in the presence of many witnesses on March 15, 1921 in Berlin as revenge for his role in orchestrating the Armenian Genocide during World War I. It was a part of Operation Nemesis planned by the Armenian Revolutionary Federation. Talaat Pasha had been convicted and sentenced to death in absentia in the Turkish Courts-Martial of 1919–1920 and was viewed as the main individual responsible for orchestrating the Armenian Genocide. After a two-day trial Tehlirian was found not guilty by the German court and freed. Tehlirian is considered a national hero by Armenians.

    Tehlirian’s main target was Talât Pasha, who was a member of the military triumvirate known as the “Three Pashas” who controlled the Ottoman Empire. He was the former Minister of the Interior and Grand Vizier (an office equivalent to that of a prime minister), and was noted for his prominent role in the Armenian Genocide. As soon as he found Talât Pasha’s address on 4 Hardenbergstraße, in the Charlottenburg district of Berlin, Tehlirian rented an apartment near his house so that he could study his everyday routine.[3][9]

    Tehlirian shadowed Talât as he left his house on Hardenbergstraße on the morning of March 15, 1921. He crossed the street to view him from the opposite sidewalk, then crossed it once more to walk past him to confirm his identity. He then turned around and pointed his gun to shoot him in the nape of the neck.[10][11] Talât was felled with a single 9mm parabellum round from a Luger P08 pistol.[12] The assassination took place in broad daylight and led to Tehlirian’s immediate arrest by German police, who in any case had been told by his handlers, Armen Garo and Shahan Natalie, not to run from the crime scene.

    Tehlirian was tried for murder, but was eventually acquitted by the twelve-man jury. His trial was a rather sensationalized event at the time, taking place shortly after the establishment of the Weimar Republic, with Tehlirian being represented by three German defense attorneys, including Dr. Theodor Niemeyer, professor of law at Kiel University. Priest and Armenian Genocide survivor Grigoris Balakian, German activist Johannes Lepsius, and German commander of the Ottoman armed forces during the war General Liman von Sanders were among several of the prominent individuals called as witnesses to the trial.

    The trial examined not only Tehlirian’s actions but also Tehlirian’s conviction that Talât was the main author of the Armenian deportation and mass killings. The defense attorneys made no attempt to deny the fact that Tehlirian had killed a man, and instead focused on the influence of the Armenian Genocide on Tehlirian’s mental state. Tehlirian claimed during the trial that he had been present in Erzincan in 1915 and had been deported along with his family and personally witnessed their murder. When asked by the judge if he felt any sort of guilt, Tehlirian remarked, “I do not consider myself guilty because my conscience is clear…I have killed a man. But I am not a murderer.”[1][....]

    It took the jury slightly over an hour to render a verdict of “not guilty.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soghomon_Tehlirian

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  17. Russians proved themselves as benevolent rulers, good advisers, reliable friends to Muslims of Central Asia and Caucasus. They had build schools, educated native engineers, modernised these countries.

    Well, that’s one way of putting it:

    Russia, Circassian genocide (ca. 1864)
    Walt Richmond, “Russia’s Forgotten Genocide” HNN, 3-18-13: “Throughout the entire process, at least 625,000 people died.” http://hnn.us/articles/russias-forgotten-genocide
    Bullough, Let Our Fame Be Great: Journeys Among the Defiant People of the Caucasus (Basic Books, 2010) p. 29-30: “Hundreds of thousands of Circassians left the Caucasus. Estimated numbers vary wildly: from a probably overinflated two million, to a clearly too small 300,000. The number was probably somewhere between a million and 1.2 million, according to the latest research by historians. The death toll of their terrible journey is impossible to estimate, but the mortality rate was probably about a third.” [=333,000 to 400,000]
    Shenfield, “The Circassians: A Forgotten Genocide?” in Levene and Roberts, The Massacre in History (Berghahn Book, 1999), p. 154 “The number who died in the Circassian catastrophe of the 1860s could hardly, therefore, have been fewer than one million, and may well have been closer to one and-a-half million”

    http://necrometrics.com/wars19c.htm#Circassians

  18. It goes without saying that killing of five million Vietnamese or a million Iraqis were just “war is hell” business as usual.

    Soviet-Afghanistan War:

    Soviet Phase and immediate aftermath only
    Isby, War in a Distant Country: Afghanistan (1989): Civilian deaths:
    1986 voluntary aid study: 600,000
    1987 USAID study: 875,000
    1987 Gallup study: 1,200,000
    2 June 2002 LA Times: 670,000 civilians during 10-year Soviet occupation
    Toronto Star (6 May 1991): more than 1,000,000
    SIPRI 1990: 1,000,000 total dead (the 1988 Yearbook estimated 100-150T battle dead)
    Minneapolis Star-Tribune (14 Sept. 1991): 1,500,000
    FAS 2000: 1-2M Afghans (1979-89)

    [MEDIAN: 1.5M]

    http://necrometrics.com/20c1m.htm#Afghanistan

    Deported nationalities:
    Aleksandr Nekrich, The Punished Peoples (1978): Net population losses, 1939-59, after allowance for wartime losses.
    Chechens: 590,000
    Kalmyks: 142,000
    Ingush: 128,000
    Karachai: 124,000
    Balkars: 64,000
    [TOTAL: 1,048,000]
    Kenneth Christie, Historical Injustice and Democratic Transition in Eastern Asia and Northern Europe: Ghosts at the Table of Democracy (2002)
    Lithuanian, Latvian and Estonians (1940-41): 85,000 deported, of which 55,000 killed or died
    Baltics executed during reconquest (1944-45): 30,000
    Postwar partisan war
    Lithuanians: 40-50,000 k.
    Latvian: 25,000
    Estonians: 15,000
    [TOTAL: 170,000 ± 5,000]
    Richard Overy, Russia’s War (1997)
    citing Rummel: 530,000 Chechens and other Black Sea/Caucasus minorities died
    citing NKVD archives: 231,000 deaths, 1943-49
    Harff and Gurr:
    Chechens, Ingushi, Karachai, Balkars, Kalmyks: 230,000 d. (1943-57)
    Meskhierians, Crimean Tatars: 57,000 – 175,000 d. (1944-68)
    Davies: 1,000,000 Volga Germans, Chechens, Ingush, Crimean Tatars, etc.
    NewsHour: some 200,000 Chechens died during the exile [http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/europe/chechnya/history.html
    The Cambridge History of Russia by Dominic C. B. Lieven, Maureen Perrie, Ronald Grigor Suny, p.226: a quarter million died during the deportation of ethnic groups.

    http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Stalin

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  19. Yes, I’d gathered that a critical attitude to sources wasn’t really your thing.

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  20. The lenient sentences of courts in Weimar Germany for assassins motivated by German nationalism are usually interpreted as part of a “vast right-wing conspiracy”. This case puts them in a broader context.

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  21. Well, never let it be said that my small webzine doesn’t attract some unusual commenters…

    “Syon,” for example, tends to spam threads with very long excerpts from Wikipedia or The New York Review of Books, which are apparently treated as absolutely unquestionable authorities.

    Okay. However, “Syon” also happens to be a fanatic racialist, endlessly denouncing the obvious inferiority of Hispanics, blacks, and (to some extent) all non-Anglo-Saxons, a perspective widely suggested as being due to mental illness…according to Wikipedia and (the very liberal) The New York Review of Books. Would KKK activists regularly cite SPLC reports as their top authority?

    I also noticed that when “Syon” quoted the varied estimates of supposed Afghan War deaths upthread most of them came in at 1M or under, with only a single estimate being as high as 1.5M. Yet “Syon” quoted the “median” of all those numbers as being 1.5M. Although “Syon” claims to be a junior faculty member in English literature, either his critical reading skills, his definition of the term “median,” or his ability to do simple arithmetic is lacking.

    Still, I’d hate to see “Syon” leave. If I ever start charging commenters by the quoted word, he’d singlehandedly make my webzine immensely profitable…

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  22. Yes, I’d gathered that a critical attitude to sources wasn’t really your thing.

    That’s why I list multiple sources, dear fellow…..

  23. “The same as the Western “Christian” Crusaders did to Byzantian Christians: rape, murder, destruction and endless pillaging.”

    Kiza,

    I love you as an internet brother but please try to understand the true history of the Crusades. It really is not as black and white as your statement suggests. There is much good, honest and dispassionate history written about this matter.

    Kind regards…

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  24. “Syon,” for example, tends to spam threads with very long excerpts from Wikipedia or The New York Review of Books, which are apparently treated as absolutely unquestionable authorities.

    “Unquestionable,” Ron? Hardly.They do, however, offer information.Now, if you wish to argue against any of the figures/ info offered here, please do so.

    Okay. However, “Syon” also happens to be a fanatic racialist,

    Ron, does this mean that we’re not friends?

    endlessly denouncing the obvious inferiority of Hispanics, blacks,

    More like letting the facts speak for themselves, Ron…

    and (to some extent) all non-Anglo-Saxons,

    Hey, Ron, us Anglos have Shakespeare, Newton, and Darwin.

    a perspective widely suggested as being due to mental illness

    Actually, Ron, arguing in favor of Hispanic Amerind/Mestizo superiority strikes me as being rather more indicative of mental illness….

    …according to Wikipedia and (the very liberal) The New York Review of Books. Would KKK activists regularly cite SPLC reports as their top authority?

    I tend to try to stay clear of the “KKK,” Ron.Low class of people.

    I also noticed that when “Syon” quoted the varied estimates of supposed Afghan War deaths upthread

    Do you have counter-estimates to offer, Ron?

    most of them came in at 1M or under, with only a single estimate being as high as 1.5M. Yet “Syon” quoted the “median” of all those numbers as being 1.5M. Although “Syon” claims to be a junior faculty member in English literature, either his critical reading skills, his definition of the term “median,” or his ability to do simple arithmetic is lacking.

    Not my median, Ron.As you’ve noted, Ron, the figures come from elsewhere.In this case, Matthew White’s site:

    http://necrometrics.com/warstatx.htm

    It’s useful for getting quick access to a range of numbers for various atrocities, massacres, etc.

    Still, I’d hate to see “Syon” leave. If I ever start charging commenters by the quoted word, he’d singlehandedly make my webzine immensely profitable…

    Shall I define the utility of the quote, Ron? Why not.This way, people know that I am not just making stuff up.

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  25. The lenient sentences of courts in Weimar Germany for assassins motivated by German nationalism are usually interpreted as part of a “vast right-wing conspiracy”. This case puts them in a broader context.

    There does seem to have been a breakdown in traditional principles of law and order.I do have to admit, though, that if I had been on the jury, I would have been somewhat sympathetic towards Tehlirian :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talaat_Pasha

    Interestingly, a similar case happened in France.In 1926, Sholem-Shmuel Schwarzbard assassinated Symon Vasylyovych Petliura for his role in the anti-Jewish pogroms that swept Russia-Ukraine during the Russian Revolution-Civil War:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sholom_Schwartzbard

    As was the case with Tehlirian, the jury acquitted Schwarzbard.

  26. I can count :-) These Nemesis killings took place in early twenties, and the next batch (assassination of diplomats) occurred in mid-seventies. Fifty year lull. This was not revenge, this was a result of G-propaganda.

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  27. Yes, I’d gathered that a critical attitude to sources wasn’t really your thing.

    Now, let’s use Shamir as a counter-example.He tosses out quite a few numbers, but provides no supporting evidence for them.Not even links:

    The best flower of Europe, a million of the youngest and brightest were killed at Verdun

    OK, Shamir says that “a million” died at Verdun.Now, since Ron has been complaining about me quoting stuff, I’ll merely offer a link:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Verdun#Casualties

    And note that the figure of one million deaths seems…..a tad high.

    – sad, but that’s not G. Young and old, women and men were incinerated in millions in the fiery furnaces of Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Hiroshima

    The unfair way to take this would be to assume that Shamir literally means that millions died during the bombings of Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, and Hiroshima.That’s obviously untrue:

    Dresden: 22,700 – 25,000 people

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#Fatalities

    Hamburg: approx 42,000 (White, Atrocities, p 415)

    Tokyo: 84,000 (Atrocities, 415)

    Hiroshima: 120,000 (Atrocities, 416)

    25,000 +42,000+84,000 + 120,000= 271,000

    Nowhere near millions

    However, let’s be fair and assume that Shamir is merely using these famous exemplars as a way to symbolize the horrors of aerial bombardment during WWII.So, here are some figures for the Anglo Bombings campaigns in both Europe and Japan:

    Bombing of Germany:
    1945 US Strategic Bombing Survey: >305,000
    Hammond: 400,000
    Rummel: 410,000, 100%
    Clodfelter: 499,750
    Keegan: 593,000
    Grenville: 593,000 (citing “official Germany”)
    P. Johnson: 600,000

    http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Blame

    Japan, both conventional and nuclear:

    1945 US Strategic Bombing Survey: 330,000
    Keegan: 363,000, not including post-war radiation sickness
    Rummel: 374,000
    P. Johnson: 435,000
    Harper Collins Atlas of the Second World War: 500,000
    Large, Showa Japan: [393,637]

    http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm#Blame

    Now, let’s combine the high figures from both theatres:

    600,000 + 500,000= 1,100,000

    So, slightly more than one million.But that’s still nowhere near Shamir’s casually tossed off figure of “millions.”

    sorry, old chum, that’s not G. Millions starved to death in the brutal siege of Leningrad

    Siege of Leningrad, brutal bit of business, that.But what are the figures?Well, the “official” civilian death-toll is 632,000 (Atrocities, 405), but estimates run as high as one million (405). But that’s not “millions.”Even if we add in military deaths, we still only get around 1.5 million deaths, which is only half-way to two million and that elusive plural.

    – well, you understand by now, that’s not G.

    Interestingly, Snyder, in Bloodlands, does count the siege of Leningrad as one component in Hitler’s plans for the East (cf The Hunger Plan and Generalplan Ost), which were quite genocidal in character.

    It goes without saying that killing of five million Vietnamese

    I’m guessing that Shamir is saying that the Americans killed 5 million Vietnamese during the course of the war.Well, the official Vietnamese figures are: 1.1 Viet Cong and NVA soldiers plus 2 million Vietnamese civilians* (Atrocities, 473). That gives us 3.1 million deaths, not 5 million.

    or a million Iraqis were just “war is hell” business as usual.

    It would be really useful if he told us what he was counting here.Is he bundling together Gulf War I, Sanctions (1990-2003), Gulf War II, and the occupation? Here are some figures (I would quote them, but that really seems to bother Ron):

    http://necrometrics.com/warstat6.htm#Gulf

    http://necrometrics.com/wars21c.htm#Iraq03

    http://necrometrics.com/20c300k.htm#Iraq98

    *Some of these civilians were killed by the Viet Cong/NVA, but I’ll let that slide.

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  28. It was the center of the Eastern Roman Empire until 1453…but had long since ceased to be the center of anything significant by the time it fell. I’d say it probably lasted as such until the rise of Islam, but that’s probably a question for medieval specialists.

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  29. I can count :-) These Nemesis killings took place in early twenties, and the next batch (assassination of diplomats) occurred in mid-seventies.

    Just pointing out that the Armenians didn’t meekly turn the other cheek in the 1920s….

    and the next batch (assassination of diplomats) occurred in mid-seventies. Fifty year lull. This was not revenge, this was a result of G-propaganda.

    Not to mention a little dash of nationalism…..

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Secret_Army_for_the_Liberation_of_Armenia

    Interesting to note how the ASALA trained at PLO camps….

  30. Armenians did not massacre thousands of Azeris, it is quite the opposite. Armenians were massacred on the streets of Baku while the world yawned.

    The author is wrong, we Armenians do call the massacre of Greeks in Asia Minor as Genocide. Also the massacre of the Assyrians.

  31. “There’s no instance recorded in history when anyone actually committed the crime of genocide as thus described. ”

    I believe I remember reading that the Iroquois (the “Five Nations” according to the Brits) waged war against the Huron and other tribes, defeated them and absorbed them into their tribe. I hope this PC-incorrect statement does not bring down the wrath of Google on my head. I would argue that Iroquois qualify, as native Americans, to the U.S.’s exemption from the genocide treaty, despite the fact that the U.S. is not a signatory to that treaty. In the same way, Israel attempts to enforce the NPT against Iran despite the fact that it is not a signatory to the NPT and possesses in excess of 200 nuclear warheads.

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  32. The critical date is 1204 when it was captured by Western European and Venetian Crusaders, during the Fourth Crusade:

    … the weakened Byzantine state would never manage to restore its former territories, wealth, or imperial status. For this reason, the events of 1204 are sometimes considered to herald the irreversible decline of the Byzantine Empire, ultimately leading to its final demise in the Ottoman siege of 1453 and the arrival of a new Islamic empire on European soil.

    So let’s revise it to 330 – 1204.

  33. I am not sure I get your point.

    I did not say that all crusades were rape, murder, destruction and pillaging of Eastern Christians. Is your issue about the frequency?

    Is it not an extreme level of betrayal if your Western Christian co-believers ostensibly come to help you against some Muslim conqueror but instead end up doing what the Muslim conqueror did not do? One such occurrence is too many.

    Besides, you got caught up by my single sentence about distant history, a side issue.

    As Israel and Biff point out:
    “A Genocide is not about past. It is about future. That’s all you need to know.”

    Just recall that the British diplomats claimed that their G-resolution was to make peace in the present and the future, completely opposite to the real intention. This is why I wrote: “The same old British.”

  34. “It was the center of the Eastern Roman Empire until 1453…but had long since ceased to be the center of anything significant by the time it fell.”

    You could probably more accurately date the demise of Byzantium to 1204, the date of the Fourth Crusade, when the Christians of the West, led by the Venetians, took a wrong turn and sacked Byzantium instead of going to the Holy Land, vastly enriching Venice in the process (where do you think those marvelous horses which guard St. Marks came from?) and placing a Roman Catholic at the head of Byzantium for the next 60 years. After 1204, emigrants from Byzantium vastly enriched the culture of the West and planted the seeds of the Renaissance. By weakening Byzantium, the West destroyed the main bulwark against the Ottoman Turks and opened up Europe to the incursions of the Ottoman Turks. Vienna repelled the last Ottoman invasion as late as 1683. The famous Aghia Sophia in Byzantium, a marvel of architecture, remained the largest building in the world for almost a thousand years.

  35. Mr. SHAMIR:

    Your article contains many unsubstantiated assertions and patently false statements.
    In general.
    However, I will point out some of the errors in regards to Armenia and Armenian history, of which I know a little more than others.

    1. {“ The Armenians and the Azeri soldiers marched together, one after another, on the Red Square on May 9 this year, approving the Russian position of the mediator and protector in the area.”}

    Total nonsense: Armenian and Azerbaijani soldiers did not march “together”.
    The Armenian contingent was marching behind the Azerbaijani contingent.
    Guess why: the honor guards from different countries marched in alphabetical order of the Russian/Cyrillic alphabet.
    Азербайджан. (Azerbaijan)
    Армения. (Armenia)
    “з” comes before “р”.

    Constituent republics of former USSR were marching in honor of USSR’s victory against Nazi Germany. Nothing more significant than that.
    You read too much into it, because you are only superficially familiar with Armenia and our history.

    btw: hateful Azerbaijanis, who supposedly were marching “together” with Armenians photoshopped Armenia’s flag from their own publications:

    [Azerbaijan Photoshops Armenia Out Of Victory Day]

    http://www.eurasianet.org/node/73386

    so much for marching “together”.

    2. { A good example is provided by Greeks. They suffered probably more than Armenians during the WWI, but as nobody applied the term G to “their” atrocities, they are not obsessed with revenge and live rather peaceably with their Turkish neighbours.”}

    Hard to tell who suffered more from the genocidal Turks: Armenians, Pontic Greeks, or Assyrians.
    I am biased, so I will say Armenians.
    Armenians lost about 70%-80% of our population in Western Armenia.
    Western Armenia was completely emptied of indigenous Armenians.
    Eastern Armenia barely escaped wipeout: Armenians defeated the invading Turks at the famous battle of Sardarabad, and managed to save that part which eventually became today’s Armenia.
    And in 1920 Bolsheviks showed up in Caucasus, and the rest is history, as they say.
    Pontic Greeks were also subjected to genocide.
    But not mother Greece.
    And RoA has officially recognized both Pontic Greek and Assyrian genocides.
    And Greeks do not live peaceably with Turks: I guess you have not heard of the invasion of Cyprus by Turks ?

    3. {“ Visit to Armenia jeopardised this achievement”}

    Putin jeopardized nothing.
    Turkey is a dispensable trading partner for Russia.
    Armenia is an indispensible ally and vice-versa.
    To know why that is so, study the 200 year history of the Orthodox Christian Russian Empire vs the Islamic Ottoman Empire and their mortal rivalry, particularly in the Caucasus.
    When Turks loudly complained about Pres Putin’s Armenian Genocide speech in Yerevan on April 24, 2015, PM Medvedev published the same speech containing the “dreaded” word Genocide on his official web page on April 28, 2015: just to let Turks know not to mess with Russia.

    4. {“ A new generation of Armenians was poisoned by victimhood and revenge feelings, thanks to Lemkin and his followers.”}

    Armenians did not and do not need Dr Lemkin’s coining the word Genocide to know who and what Turks are.
    Long before 1915, invading Turks were massacring the indigenous peoples of Asia Minor, including Armenians.
    1894-1896: Hamidian massacres of Armenians: up to 300,000 murdered.
    1909: Adana Massacre of Armenians: up to 30,000 murdered.
    1918: Mustafa Kemal Attaturk orders General Karabekir to invade newly independent Armenia and “physically and politically destroy her”. The attempt to completely wipe out Armenians from the face of the Earth fails, because Armenians, outnumbered 2-to-1 defeat the professional Turk army a The Battle of Sardarabad and set them running.

    More later maybe….

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  36. As an Englishman, I have to agree about your views of the British.

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  37. @The passing of the mantle from decaying power to rising one was pretty obvious in historical terms, so why not the spiritual focus?

    Absolutely correct. But the fact that the Russian Church might ask to have a voice commensurate to her real size and importance in the chorus of Orthodox Churches is not reducible to the dreams of the “Third Rome” which haunted for a very short while the overheated apocalyptic minds of the Old Believers three centuries ago. It is more of what you say, “(the) view of many of those Orthodox brethren in Eastern Europe, some of their clergy in the Patriarchate system and of Russians I have met”, but not of all. Yes, many Orthodox brethren that I met in Romania explained to me that Russians are not really Orthodox, but “pravoslavnici” (they were, I assure you, educated people). And they would assert with the greatest conviction that the Russian Church is just the propaganda arm of “the Kremlin” which sugar coat in Orthodox verbiage the malignant aims of her neo-Stalin master, the remaking of the Soviet Union, when the Russian boots would trample again our soil, demanding, like in 1944, our watches. But there are also many people who see clearly through that smoke screen.

  38. Dear Bill,
    Having spent much time with the British, I have concluded that there is no nation of individuals of better character and of worse tribal behavior. Similar for the Jews. I always cringe whenever I make generalizations, but it is impossible to express yourself without putting (generalization) labels on things.

  39. […] published in The Unz Review | Traduction : Maria Poumier […]

  40. An important general principle which gets less attention than it should: authorities which copy each other do not count as independent authorities.

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  41. An important general principle which gets less attention than it should: authorities which copy each other do not count as independent authorities.

    What counts as copying? What if a consensus has been reached on certain numbers? Take, say, military deaths in The Great War.Approx 8,500,000 deaths is the “standard” figure. Few historians deviate from it.

    On the other hand, some figures are more contentious.Take, say, deaths in the Thirty Years War (1618-48).For a very long time, 7-8 million dead was the standard figure.More recent demographic studies favor 3- 4 million dead*.If someone asked me to give an estimate, I would hedge my bets and say somewhere between a low of 3 million and a high of 8.

    Then there’s German deaths resulting from “ethnic cleansing” in Eastern Europe during/immediately after WWII.Did approx 2 million plus Germans die? Or was the true figure more like 400,000-600,000**?

    *http://necrometrics.com/pre1700a.htm#30YrW

    **https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%9350)#Casualties

  42. Ron, does this mean that we’re not friends?

  43. “Armenian story has another side
    October 16, 2007|By Norman Stone, a historian and the author of “World War I: A Short History”

    -n 1914, when World War I began in earnest, Armenians living in what is now Turkey attempted to set up a national state. Armenians revolted against the Ottoman government, began what we would now call “ethnic cleansing” of the local Turks. Their effort failed and caused the government to deport most Armenians from the area of the revolt for security reasons. Their sufferings en route are well-known.

    First, allegedly critical evidence of the crime consists of forgeries. The British were in occupation of Istanbul for four years after the war and examined all of the files of the Ottoman government. They found nothing, and therefore could not try the 100-odd supposed Turkish war criminals that they were holding. Then, documents turned up, allegedly telegrams from the interior ministry to the effect that all Armenians should be wiped out. The signatures turned out to be wrong, there were no back-up copies in the archives and the dating system was misunderstood.

    There are many other arguments against a supposed genocide of the Armenians. Their leader was offered a post in the Turkish Cabinet in 1914, and turned it down. When the deportations were under way, the populations of the big cities were exempted — Istanbul, Izmir, Aleppo, where there were huge concentrations of Armenians. There were indeed well-documented and horrible massacres of the deportee columns, and the Turks themselves tried more than 1,300 men for these crimes in 1916, convicted many and executed several. None of this squares with genocide, as we classically understand it. Finally, it is just not true that historians as a whole support the genocide thesis. The people who know the background and the language (Ottoman Turkish is terribly difficult) are divided, and those who do not accept the genocide thesis are weightier. The Armenian lobby contends that these independent and highly esteemed historians are simply “Ottomanists” — a ridiculously arrogant dismissal.

    Unfortunately, the issue has never reached a properly constituted court. If the Armenians were convinced of their own case, they would have taken it to one. Instead, they lobby bewildered or bored parliamentary assemblies to “recognize the genocide.”
    Let historians decide. The Turkish government has been saying this for years. It is the Armenians who refuse to take part in a joint historical review, even when organized by impeccably neutral academics. This review is the logical and most sensible path forward.

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-10-16/news/0710150364_1_armenians-ottoman-government-genocide

    REPLY

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  44. Armenia is an indispensible ally

    You are overstating the case here somewhat. There is definitely a cultural and historic connection (plus massively influential Armenian lobby in Russia) between Russia and Armenia but Armenia’s indispensability for Russia is a matter of debate. There is nothing “indispensable” for Russia in Dashnaks or some parts of foreign Armenian diaspora which are anything but friendly towards Russia.

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  45. [The Armenian lobby contends that these independent and highly esteemed historians are simply “Ottomanists” — a ridiculously arrogant dismissal.]

    But, but, the Zionists have for many years been denouncing any scholar who disagrees with them as an “Arabist”, and that is considered an incredibly acute and cutting argument.

  46. says:
    • Website     Show CommentNext New Comment

    It is not true that to commit genocide one needs to wipe out every single member of a particular group. The UN definition of genocide clearly refers to “in whole or in part.”
    Also, the U.S. IS a signatory of the Genocide Convention.

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  47. I convinced that the Hasbros have at least an alpha and delta team (not in the “game” sense, but the video game PvP sense). Alpha will say, for example, Jews invented the polio vaccine, Delta will counter with they own Hollywood, Gamma will add that Poroshenko is half-Jew, and so on, all on a thread about Syrian foreign relations. If you have a three-digit IQ, you need to see past this, or the internet will become as useless as the MSM. Up your skillz, my peeps.

  48. A good example is provided by Greeks. They suffered probably more than Armenians during the WWI, but as nobody applied the term G to “their” atrocities, they are not obsessed with revenge and live rather peaceably with their Turkish neighbours.

    Not sure if the Greeks suffered more*.To be sure, the Greeks did experience some hellish atrocities during the period**:

    Rummel (civilian democide)
    Greeks killed by Turks: 264,000
    Turks killed by Greeks: 15,000

    Housepian, Marjorie, The Smyrna Affair (1966)
    The 1922 Burning of Smyrna by the Turks: According to Adm. Bristol’s report, 2,000 Greeks killed by fire, execution, etc. According to George Horton, over 100,000 were killed. Housepian assesses Bristol’s number as “the historical verdict to date”, but says that Horton’s “makes more sense” in light of the 190,000 residents and refugees unaccounted for.

    AIHGS: 353,000 Pontian Greeks k. by Turks

    Eckhardt: 20,000 civ. + 50,000 mil. = 70,000

    http://necrometrics.com/20c300k.htm#GrTk

    But the estimates that I have seen are typically lower than what I have seen for the Armenians.Most estimates these days for the Armenian Massacres run around 1- 1.5 million (An alleged Turkish report estimates 972,000 for 1915-16 alone).

    As for why the Greeks are not “obsessed” with revenge, well, I might note the not altogether incidental fact that Greece was an independent state.Armenia was absorbed into the USSR for the bulk of the 20th century.Indeed, the ASALA assassinations that Shamir cites had a lot to do with Armenian nationalism.

    *The extinction of Greek Anatolia was especially tragic.Greek communities in Asia Minor dated back to the Iron Age, yet they were swept clean from the land.

    **There they are, Ron, the ultimate horror: quoted statistics

  49. says:
         Show CommentNext New Comment

    It’s embarrassing to see the concerted campaign of a dozen or so Israeli/Jewish commentators, like the author of this article, against Armenia and Armenians. These “pundits” do so in the service of the corrupt and undemocratic Azerbaijan of Ilham Aliyev. Truth be damned as far as these commentators are concerned.
    For years Israeli/Jewish commentators have condemned the West for “selling Jewish blood for Arab oil.” Now I see Armenian blood is being sold for Azeri oil.

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  50. “It is not true that to commit genocide one needs to wipe out every single member of a particular group. The UN definition of genocide clearly refers to “in whole or in part.” ”

    I never argued that the whole group had to be wiped out to constitute genocide, but, since the elimination and absorption of the Huron by the Iroquois appears to have done just that, there shouldn’t be any dispute that it constituted genocide under the UN treaty, so I don’t know what you are complaining about.

    “Also, the U.S. IS a signatory of the Genocide Convention.”

    That’s true, but, as the author points out, the U.S.’s adoption of the treaty is hedged about with so many conditions, many nations argue that it is as if the U.S. did not adopt the treaty, although it is always ready to apply the treaty against other unfavored nations when it suits its purposes. Please pardon my loose use of language since my post was made in half jest.

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  51. {“ but Armenia’s indispensability for Russia is a matter of debate.”}

    You can debate it if you like.
    But facts say otherwise.
    By 1993, Artsakh/NKR military had rolled back the Azerbaijani invaders and were handing them defeat after defeat. (full war started in Fall of 1991)
    Alarmed that their Turkic ally was about to fold, Turkey massed an invasion army at the border of RoA.
    The idea was to cut through Southern RoA, race to Baku and possibly attack North into Artsakh.
    CIS head Shaposhnikov famously warned Turkey’s PM Tancu Ciller that if Turks crossed he border of RoA, WW3 will start.
    Turks beat a hasty retreat back to their barracks.
    Armenians of Artsakh continued chasing and cutting up Azerbaijani military all the way to Arax River.
    A ceasefire was signed in 1994.

    In 1993 Russia was on her knees.
    Moscow was in turmoil.
    Yet Russia was willing to go to a nuclear war with NATO to prevent Armenia’s loss.

    {“ There is nothing “indispensable” for Russia in Dashnaks or some parts of foreign Armenian diaspora which are anything but friendly towards Russia.”}

    That statement clearly shows you have no clue about Republic of Armenia.
    No clue who people of RoA have been electing Presidents, to the parliament,…
    No clue what the role of the Armenian Diaspora is in support of RoA, or NKR.
    No clue whatsoever friend.

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  52. There is no other side to the Armenian Genocide.
    You can put in a hundred links to denialist web sites or denialist books.
    Makes no difference.
    have seen the denialist song & dance.
    Have seen it all and all its permutations.

    Now then, the one and only side: the truth.

    First, let’s hear it from the horse’s mouth:
    [Ahmet Davutoglu, who has become the first Turkish foreign minister ever to visit Uighur Autonomous Region in China, toured historical sites in Kashgar city. Davutoglu and an accompanying Turkish delegation arrived early Thursday in Kashgar in the extreme west of China and the extreme southwest of Uighur region. Davutoglu first visited the tomb of Mahmud Kashgari and then they toured the tomb of Yusuf Has Hajib as well the 500-year-old Id Khah Mosque, the largest mosque in China.

    "We are visiting the land of our ancestors," Davutoglu said.] (October 2010)

    And here is the one and only side of the Armenian Genocide:
    1. Armenians are indigenous to Armenian Highlands (and South Caucasus) for about 5,000 years or so.
    2. People who inhabit Asia Minor now and who call themselves ‘Turks’ are descendants of Turkic tribes (e.g. Uygurs) from East and Central Asia.
    3. Invaders, foreigners, uninvited guests.
    4. Turks started invading Asia Minor around 1000AD.
    5. They proceeded to massacre, forcibly Turkify and forcibly Islamize the indigenous Christian peoples – Armenians, Assyrians – and Pontic Greeks.
    6. This went on for centuries.
    7. Fast forward to 1895: Turks massacre up to 300,000 Armenians.
    8. 1909: Turks massacre up to 30,000 Armenians.
    9. Circa 1915: Ottoman Turkey is 25% Christian and 75% Muslim.
    10. 1915: Genocide of Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontic Greeks is launched. First victims are Armenian intellectuals and civil leaders in occupied Constantinople (Istanbul). On April 24, 1915, around 250 Armenian community leaders are rounded up and murdered.
    11. Then the murders expand to the rest of the population.
    12. Today Turkey is 99.8% Muslim.

    You denialists are losing.
    We are adding more and more countries, states, municipalities,…who officially recognize the AG.
    We will keep at it as long as we have to.
    We’ll gradually tighten the noose around denialist, genocidal Turkey.
    And when the time is right, there will be righteous retribution for the approx 2 million of our murdered defenseless civilians – women, children, babies : murdered by Turks (1894-1923).

    Have no doubt.

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  53. Maybe Mr. Ron Unz can invite Mr. Harout Sassounian (an Armenian-American community leader and an excellent scribe) to debunk the many Anti-Armenian false statements in Mr. Shamir’s article.

  54. [since the elimination and absorption of the Huron by the Iroquois appears to have done just that, there shouldn’t be any dispute that it constituted genocide]

    The problem is, what is the maximum ratio of absorption to elimination for which one can still speak of genocide?

  55. About the plot to poison Germans – no, it was not “a few crazy people”. A president of Israel was involved, first-class scientists from Weizmann Institute, many journalists including Michael Elkins of the BBC. The plot got derailed, so apparently it had no great support – true.

  56. Syon,
    after fifty years at peace.

    Not quite accurate:

    You write hundred words to two of mine. Let us stop the flood. I said “after fifty years at peace” – you denied that. I gave you exact dates. Now I wait for your apology or at least correction on this point, before you’ll continue to flood the site on all other topics.

  57. Probably you do not even understand that your reasoning is not acceptable to modern people, whether of the West or of the East. Who cares whether ancestors of Turks moved to the area one thousand or one hundred years ago? My neighbour in Jerusalem is an Armenian, he moved there some fifty years ago. A house I stay in Moscow belongs to an Armenian, too. Neither Moscow, nor Jerusalem were Armenian. Does it mean that these people are “Invaders, foreigners, uninvited guests” in your words?
    Some Armenians are too nationalist and chauvinist even for a Jew.

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  58. Avery,
    I wrote “marched together, one after another”
    You replied

    Total nonsense: Armenian and Azerbaijani soldiers did not march “together”.
    The Armenian contingent was marching behind the Azerbaijani contingent.

    Perhaps you should employ a translator who will explain that “marching behind” is the same as “one after another”.

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  59. That statement clearly shows you have no clue about Republic of Armenia.
    No clue who people of RoA have been electing Presidents, to the parliament,…
    No clue what the role of the Armenian Diaspora is in support of RoA, or NKR.
    No clue whatsoever friend.

    1. I am not your friend.
    2. I am from Baku and am pure bred Russian.
    3. I also took part in evacuating Armenians from Azerbaijan. Across Caspian Sea. I know what Gara Janvar is, not from the books.
    4. I have Armenian relatives in my family by marriage.
    5. I have a very good clue, in fact, I know way more than you can possibly know. Why? It is a separate issue. You never have been at operational orientations (nobody would allow you there), I attended many between 1988 and 1990.
    6. You can try blow rainbows out of someone else’s ass.

    Among my naval academy’s class-mates and close friends still are a number of Armenians. Wonderful, exemplary people. I also know some Armenians from Syria. I will omit here the issue of Russian officers and their families being taken hostages by their christian “artzah” “brethren”–same POSs as were many from Azeri side too. The lowlifes like Kaputikyan or Balayan are altogether–beyond redemption.

    As per geopolitical implications–I recognize a typical hot air balloon from any Caucasus Bazar (I visited many). No knowledge, no background–a lot of wishful thinking, though, and a lot of flare.

    P.S. I was “born” (obviously I was born in maternity ward) in the Armenian yard (двор) in Baku and spent early childhood there–3 Russian families and other 15–Armenians. Yes, no clue.

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  60. If you thought that only Russians and Serbians are in the cross-hairs of the G-men, pursuing the Big-G perpetrators, it appears that Mr G (George Clooney) is pursuing all your private financial information just because you may have taken part in the Big-G: http://www.sovereignman.com/trends/meet-the-newest-enemy-of-your-financial-privacy-george-clooney-17274/

    You did not really think that the G-men would stop at one misly UN G-resolution, did you now?

    “As western governments have slid further into bankruptcy, they’ve made coordinated efforts to interdict privacy across the world through tax information exchange agreements, black lists, and turning bankers into unpaid spies. At first, their propaganda suggested that only people interested in financial privacy were guilty of tax evasion. Then organized crime. Then terrorist financing. Now it’s genocide.

    Ominously, [Clooney's] THE SENTRY has been among the first that I’ve seen which specifically mentions gold as a means of illicit finance. And governments have already taken dramatic steps to criminalize the holding of physical cash. Apparently they want to ensure that your only financial option is to deposit your money with a shaky bank in a bankrupt country earning a rate of interest that fails to keep up with inflation.”

  61. says:
         Show CommentNext New Comment

    Okay. However, “Syon” also happens to be a fanatic racialist, endlessly denouncing the obvious inferiority of Hispanics, blacks, and (to some extent) all non-Anglo-Saxons, a perspective widely suggested as being due to mental illness…according to Wikipedia and (the very liberal) The New York Review of Books. Would KKK activists regularly cite SPLC reports as their top authority?

    “Syon” has also said that he’s half-Jewish. He comes across as the kid in school desperately trying hard to fit in with the in crowd, the in crowd in this case being the more hardcore racialist commentors on this site.

  62. {“The Armenians and the Azeri soldiers marched together, one after another, on the Red Square on May 9 this year, approving the Russian position of the mediator and protector in the area.”}

    “…approving the Russian position…” ?

    As I demonstrated with the example of photoshopped-out Armenian flag, your analysis of Armenia vis-a-vis Azerbaijan is based on nothing but your own biased conjecture.
    I also specified exactly why contingents from Azerbaijan and Armenia were marching in that order, which had absolutely nothing to do with “…approving the Russian position of the mediator and protector in the area.”
    Nothing.

    That was just one concrete, verifiable example to demonstrate that your assertions about Armenia and Armenians have no basis in reality.

    Perhaps you, Sir, need to stop spreading misinformation and disinformation about Armenia and Armenians, including the Armenian Genocide.

  63. {“Probably you do not even understand that your reasoning is not acceptable to modern people, whether of the West or of the East.”}

    Remember what Rhett Butler said ? “Frankly, my dear,….”
    When it comes to the existential threat posed to my people by Turks and their collaborators, I don’t give a hoot what is or is not allegedly acceptable to modern people.

    {“Some Armenians are too nationalist and chauvinist even for a Jew.”}

    Coming from an Armenian Genocide denying Jew, I will take that as a complement.
    Thank you, thank you very much.

  64. You wrote the following, not me:

    {“ There is nothing “indispensable” for Russia in Dashnaks or some parts of foreign Armenian diaspora which are anything but friendly towards Russia.”}

    Since Independence, RoA leadership, all 3 administrations, has been very close to Russia strategically, for obvious reasons.
    ARF Dashnaks have never gained traction in Armenia: if you were born in Yerevan and spent early childhood there, like I was, instead of Baku, you’d know why.
    ARF-RoA Dashnaks garner only about 5% in RoA Parliamentary elections. In every election.
    ARF (Western) Armenian Diaspora Dashnaks have a different agenda and rarely see eye-to-eye with their RoA counterparts.
    And what does foreign Armenian diaspora have to do with Republic of Armenia, in Caucasus, being indispensable for Russia ?
    Where did I say Armenian Diaspora – whether in Russia, or in US, or in France, or in Syria,… – is indispensable for Russia ?
    I specifically wrote: “Armenia is an indispensible ally and vice-versa”.

    About your issue with “artzah” “brethren”: since you supposedly know so much more than I can possibly know, maybe you can explain to me about Russian troops supporting Azerbaijani OMON in the Operation “Koltso” (1991), when the local Armenian population of NK Shaumyan district was ethnically cleansed, with all the usual Turkic atrocities meted out to Armenians.
    While Russian troops watched.
    Yes, our Orthodox Christian Russian “brethren” assisting Muslim Turkic invaders in ethnically cleansing Russians’ Orthodox Christian Armenian “brethren” in that particular time period.
    Explain that to me Христиан земляк.

    And you can live in Baku amongst Armenians, have Armenian relatives, and still have no clue.
    You too can try to blow rainbows out of someone else’s ass: {“ You never have been at operational orientations (nobody would allow you there),”}. Wow: that is some rainbow.

  65. says:
         Show CommentNext New Comment

    One very simple question: how much turks paid you for this article ?

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  66. […] has let his anger at the misuse of the term genocide obliterate his mental faculties. He recently wrote that Lemkin coined the word genocide “in order to stress the difference between murdering Jews […]

  67. Just like terrorism is only used as a exclusive Muslim labeled

    This genocide and holocaust grave train is only applicable to Jews.

    This is the hypocrisy of Zionism.

    Israel is not a nation, it is a sophisticated Terrorist organization.

    If the Middle Eastern was a democracy Israel would not exist.

    Israel is a Autocracy.

  68. LOL what Zionist rock did you crawl out from?

    I guess you also deny the Persecution of Ottoman Muslims??

    so which is it Genocide or not Genocide? You tell us…..

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  69. Will you or Christians pay for Persecution of Ottoman Muslims??? We have several million!!!!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ottoman_Muslims

    • Replies: ,
  70. [It's not good practice to write numerous, short comments. Instead, it's much preferable to combine them into one or two much longer and more substantive responses. Also, adopting the handle "Moderator" might tend to confuse or mislead other commenters.]

    The ottomans were one people mixed with all cultures and religions one large family, ottomans embraced and included these sectors into the Ottoman family. it did not divide and exclude or oppress these areas you called taken, others were added into the administration of the Empires affairs and even married into the Ottoman family. This was revolt against unity as a one people..

    a miss conception is that areas were taken over and that is wrong they were integrated into the Ottoman family by even Marriage and important this is how the ottoman Empire stood for over 600 years you do not do that by taking over people.

  71. Christianity is about 600 years older than Islam.
    Asia Minor had no Muslims before Muslim Turks invaded and wiped out the indigenous Christian populations: Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontic Greeks.
    The Balkans had no Muslims before Muslim Turks invaded and forcibly Islamized the local Christian populations.

    Christian Armenians did not invade Arabia or Uyguristan.
    Turkic tribes from Uyguristan invaded our lands.
    Got that ?
    Armenians had been living as Armenians on our own lands in Armenian Highlands for about 5,000 years (…as of most recent evidence: could be longer).
    Armenians adopted Christianity centuries before the birth of Islam in Mecca.
    Muslims invaded our lands.
    Muslim Turks initiated the violence.
    Got that ?

    Middle East was almost entirely Christian: there were no Muslims.
    Now it is almost entirely Muslim: hardly any Christians left.
    How did that happen ?
    Are Christians also responsible for Muslim ISIS cutting off the heads of other Muslims?

    Christian Armenians are not responsible for the alleged “persecution” of Muslims by other Christians, any more than all Muslims are responsible for the massacres of Shia Muslims by Sunni Muslims, for example.
    You have a specific issue with particular Christians, bring it up to them.

    btw: putting in links from Wiki means that you have nothing.
    Wiki is full of misinformation and disinformation.
    Anybody can put in any “fact” they want.

  72. Will you or Muslims pay for the mass murders, ethnic cleansing, massacres, forcible Islamizations, mass kidnappings of Christian children, mass kidnappings of Christian girls and young women, and genocides of Christians by Ottoman Muslims??????

    We have several, several, several million!!!!!!!!!

  73. ROFL: what IslamoFascist rock did you crawl from under ?
    I guess you also deny the massacres, murders, kidnappings, persecutions of Christians by Ottoman Muslims ????
    So who invaded whose lands? You tell us………..

    Or maybe we can ask a Turk:

    [Ahmet Davutoglu, who has become the first Turkish foreign minister ever to visit Uighur Autonomous Region in China, toured historical sites in Kashgar city. Davutoglu and an accompanying Turkish delegation arrived early Thursday in Kashgar in the extreme west of China and the extreme southwest of Uighur region. Davutoglu first visited the tomb of Mahmud Kashgari and then they toured the tomb of Yusuf Has Hajib as well the 500-year-old Id Khah Mosque, the largest mosque in China.

    "We are visiting the land of our ancestors," Davutoglu said.] (October 2010)

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