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Phanar Phantom
The Ukrainian Orthodox Schism
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The Russian world is caught up in a drama. Its leading Orthodox Church faces a schism over the Ukraine’s drive for its own independent church. If Kiev regime succeeds, the split between Russia proper and its breakaway Western part, the Ukraine, will widen. The Russian Church will suffer a great loss, comparable to the emergence of the Anglican church for the Catholics. However, there is a chance for the Russians to gain a lot from the split, to gain more than to lose.

The Ukraine actually has its own church, and this church is the self-ruling autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church, a part of the Russian Orthodox Church. Its autonomy is very broad; it can be considered independent practically in every aspect excepting its nominal recognition of Moscow supremacy. The Ukrainian Church does not pay tribute to Moscow, it elects its own bishops; it has no reason to push for more. No tangible reason, at least.

But in the Ukraine, there was and is a strong separatist tendency, with a somewhat romantic and nationalist tinge, comparable to Scots or Languedoc separatism. Its beginning could be traced to 18th Century, when a Moscow-appointed ruler Hetman Mazeppa rose against Russia’s Peter the Great and allied himself with the Swedish warrior-king Charles XII. A hundred years after the revolt, the foremost Russian poet, Alexander Pushkin, composed a beautiful romantic poem Poltava (following Byron’s Mazeppa) where he gives Mazeppa the following words:

For far too long we’ve bowed our heads,
Without respect or liberty,
Beneath the yoke of Warsaw’s patronage,
Beneath the yoke of Moscow’s despotism.
But now is Ukraine’s chance to grow
Into an independent power. (trans. by Ivan Eubanks)

This romantic dream of an independent Ukraine became real after the 1917 Revolution, under the German occupation at the conclusion of World War One. Within a year or two, as the defeated Germans withdrew, the independent Ukraine became Soviet and joined Soviet Russia in the Soviet Union of equal Republics. Even within the Union, the Ukraine was independent and it had its own UN seat. When Russian President Yeltsin dissolved the Union, Ukraine became fully independent again.

In the 1991 divorce with rump Russia (after hundreds of years of integration), the Ukraine took with her a major portion of the former Union’s physical and human assets. The spacious country with its hard-working people, fertile black soil, the cream of Soviet industry producing aircraft, missiles, trains and tractors, with the best and largest army within the Warsaw Treaty, with its universities, good roads, proximity to Europe, expensive infrastructure connecting East and West, the Ukraine had a much better chances for success than rump Russia.

But it didn’t turn out this way, for reasons we shall discuss elsewhere. A failed state if there ever was one, the Ukraine was quickly deserted by its most-valuable people, who ran away in droves to Russia or Poland; its industries were dismantled and sold for the price of scrap metal. The only compensation the state provides is even more nationalism, even more declarations of its independence.

This quest for full independence has been even less successful than economic or military measures. The Kiev regime could dispense with Moscow, but it became subservient to the West. Its finances are overseen by the IMF, its army by NATO, its foreign policy by the US State Department. Real independence was an elusive goal, beyond the Ukraine’s reach.

A total break of the Ukrainian church with the nominal supremacy of Moscow appealed to President Petro Poroshenko as a convincing substitute for real independence, especially with a view toward the forthcoming elections. He turned to the patriarch of Constantinople, His All-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew asking him to grant his church its full independence (called autocephaly in ecclesiastical language).

Fine, but what is ‘his church’? The vast majority of Ukrainian Orthodox Christians and their bishops are content with their status within the Russian Church. They have their own head, His Beatitude Metropolitan Onuphrius, who is also content with his position. They do not see any need for autocephaly. However, the Ukraine has two small splinter orthodox churches, one led by the ambitious bishop Filaret and another by Macarius; both are very nationalist and anti-Russian, both support the regime and claim for autonomy, both are considered illegitimate by the rest of the Orthodox world. These two small churches are potential embryos of a future Ukrainian Church of President Poroshenko.

Now we shall turn to Bartholomew. His title describes him as the patriarch of Constantinople, but in vain you will seek this city on a map. Constantinople, the Christian capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, the greatest city of his time, the seat of Roman emperors, was conquered by the Ottoman Turks in 1453 and became Islamic Istanbul, the capital of the Ottoman Empire and of the last Muslim Caliphate; since 1920 it has been a city in the Republic of Turkey. The Constantinople Patriarchate is a phantom fossil of a great past; it has a few churches, a monastery and a few ambitious monks located in Phanar, an old Greek quarter of Istanbul.

The Turkish government considers Bartholomew a bishop of the local Greeks, denying his 6th-century title of Ecumenical Patriarch. There are only three thousand Greeks in the city, so Bartholomew has very small foothold there indeed. His patriarchate is a phantom in the world of phantoms, such as the Knights of Maltese and Temple Orders, Kings of Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia, emperors of Brazil and of the Holy Roman Empire… Phantom is not a swear word. Phantoms are loved by romantics enamoured by old rituals and uniforms with golden aiguillettes. These honourable gentlemen represent nobody, they have no authority, but they can and do issue impressive-looking certificates.

ORDER IT NOW

The Orthodox Church differs from its Roman Catholic sister by having no central figure like the Pope of Rome. The Orthodox have a few equal-ranking heads of national churches, called Patriarchs or Popes. The Patriarch of Constantinople is one of these fourteen church leaders, though he has more than his share of respect by virtue of tradition. Now the Phantom of Phanar seeks to make his position much more powerful, akin to that of the Pope of Rome for the Western Church. His organization claims that ”The Ecumenical Patriarchate has the responsibility of being the Church of final appeal in Orthodoxy, and it is the only Church that may establish autocephalous and autonomous Churches“. These claims are rejected by the Russian Church, by far the biggest Orthodox Church in the world.

As the Ukrainian church is a part of the Russian Church, it could seek its full independence (autocephaly) in Moscow, but it has no such wish. The two small splinter churches turned to Phanar, and the Phanar leader was more than happy to get into the game. He had sent two of his bishops to Kiev and started with establishing a united Ukrainian church. This church wouldn’t be independent, or autocephalous; it would be a church under the direct rule of Phanar, an autonomous or the stavropegial church. For Ukrainian nationalists, it would be a sad reminder that they have the choice to go with Moscow or with Istanbul, now as their ancestors had four hundred years ago. Full independence is not on the cards.

For the Phanar, it was not a first foray into Russian territory: Bartholomew also used the anti-Russian sentiments of Tallinn and took a part of the Estonian churches and their faithful under his rule. However, then the Russians took it easy, for two reasons. Estonia is small, there are not too many churches nor congregants; and besides, the Phanar had taken some positions in Estonia between the wars, when Soviet Russia did not care much about the Church. The Ukraine is absolutely different. It is very big, it is the heart of Russian church, and Constantinople has no valid claim on it.

The Russians say that President Poroshenko bribed Bartholomew. This is nonsense of very low grade; even if the Patriarch is not averse to accepting gifts. Bartholomew had a very valid reason to accept Poroshenko’s offer. If he would realize his plan and establish a church of Ukraine under his own rule, call it autonomous or stavropegial or even autocephalous, he would cease being a phantom and would become a very real church leader with millions of faithful. The Ukraine is second only to Russia in the Orthodox world, and its coming under Constantinople would allow Bartholomew to become the most-powerful Orthodox leader.

The Russians are to blame themselves for much of their difficulties. They were too eager to accept the Phanar Phantom for the real thing in their insistent drive for external approval and recognition. They could have forgotten about him three hundred years ago instead of seeking his confirmation now and then. It is dangerous to submit to the weak; perhaps it is more risky than to submit to the strong.

This reminds me of a rather forgotten novel by H. G. Wells The Food of the Gods and How It Came to Earth. It is a story of a wondrous nourishment that allows children to grow into forty-foot-high giants. Society mistreats the young titans. In a particularly powerful episode, a mean old hag scolds the tall kids – thrice her size, and they timidly accept her silly orders. In the end, the giants succeed in standing their ground, throw off the yoke and walk tall. Wells writes about “young giants, huge and beautiful, glittering in their mail, amidst the preparations for the morrow. The sight of them lifted his heart. They were so easily powerful! They were so tall and gracious! They were so steadfast in their movements!”

Russia is a young giant that tries to observe the pygmy-established rules. International organisation called PACE (The Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe) where Russia is harshly mistreated and is not even allowed to defend itself, is a good example. International courts where Russia has little chance to stand its ground is another one. President Trump has taken the US out of a few international organisations, though the US has huge weight in international affairs and all states pay heed to the US position. Russia’s voice is not even heard, and only now the Russians begin to ponder the advantages of Ruxit.

The church rules are equally biased as they place the biggest Orthodox state with millions of faithful Christians on the same footing as Oriental phantoms.

In the days of the Ottoman Empire, the Patriarch of Constantinople had real weight. The Sultan defended his position, his decisions had legal implications for the Orthodox subjects of the Empire. He caused many troubles for the Russian Church, but the Russians had to observe his decrees as he was an imperial official. After Ataturk’s revolution, the Patriarch lost his status, but the Russian church, this young giant, continued to revere him and support him. After 1991, when Russia had turned to its once-neglected church, the Russian Church multiplied its generosity towards Phanar and turned to him for guidance, for the Moscow Church had been confused and unprepared for its new position. Being in doubt, it turned to tradition. We can compare this to the English “rotten boroughs” of Dickens novels, towns that had traditionally sent their representatives to the Parliament though they scarcely had any dwellers.

In this search for tradition, the Russian church united with the Russian Church abroad, the émigré structure with its checkered history that included support for Hitler. Its main contribution was fierce anti-Communism and rejection of the Soviet period of the Russian past. However it could be justified by the Russians’ desire to heal the White vs. Red split and restore the émigrés to the Russian people. While honouring the Phanar Phantom as the honorary head of the Orthodox world had no justification at all.

The Phanar had US State Department backing to consider. US diplomacy has had a good hand in dealings with phantoms: for many years Washington supported phantom governments-in-exile of the Baltic states, and this support was paid back a hundredfold in 1991. Now, the US support for Phanar has paid back well in this renewed attack on Russia.

ORDER IT NOW

The Patriarch of Phanar, perhaps, underestimated possible Russian response to his Ukrainian meddling. He got used to Russian good treatment; he remembered that the Russians meekly accepted his takeover of the Estonian church. Being encouraged by the US and driven by his own ambitions, he made the radical step of voiding Constantinople’s agreement of transfer of Kiev Metropolitan seat to Moscow, had sent his bishops and took over the Ukraine to himself.

The Moscow Church anathemised Bartholomew, and forbade its priests to participate in service with Phanar priests and (!!!) with priests that accept Phanar priests. While ending communion with Phanar is no pain at all, the secondary step – of ending communion with the churches that refuse to excommunicate Phanar – is a very radical one. Other Orthodox churches are unhappy about Phanar moves. They are aware that Phanar’s new rules may threaten them, too. They are not keen to establish a Pope above themselves. But I doubt they are ready to excommunicate Phanar.

The Russian church can take a less radical and more profitable way. The Orthodox world’s unity is based on two separate principles. One, the Eucharist. All Orthodox churches are united in the communion. Their priests can serve together and accept communion in any recognised church. Two, the principle of canonical territory. No church should appoint bishops on the other church’s territory.

Phanar transgressed against the territorial principle. In response, the Russian Church excommunicated him. But Phanar refused to excommunicate the Russians. As the result, the Russians are forbidden by their own church to accept communion if excommunicated priests participate in the service. But the priests of the Church of Jerusalem do not ban anybody, neither Russians, no Phanariots.

As it happened with Russian counter-sanctions, they cause harm and pain mainly to Russians themselves. There are few Orthodox pilgrims visiting Russia, while there are many Russian pilgrims visiting the Holy Land, Mount Athos and other important sites of Greece, Turkey and Palestine, first of all Jerusalem and Bethlehem. Now these pilgrims won’t be able to receive the holy communion in the Holy Sepulchre and in the Nativity Cathedral, while Russian priests won’t be able to celebrate mass in these churches.

The Russian priests will probably suffer and submit, while the lay pilgrims will probably break the prohibition and accept the Eucharist in the Church of Jerusalem.

It would be better if the Russian church were to deal with Phanar’s treachery on the reciprocity basis. Phanar does not excommunicate Russians, and Russians may go back to full communion with Phanar. Phanar broke the territorial principle, and the Russians may disregard territorial principle. Since the 20th century, canonical territory has increasingly become a violated principle of canon law, says OrthodoxWiki. Facing such major transgression, the Russians may completely drop the territorial principle and send their bishops to Constantinople and Jerusalem, to Rome and Washington, while keeping all Orthodox churches in full communion.

The Russian church will be able to spread the Orthodox faith all over the world, among the French in France, among the Italians in Italy, among Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs. The Russian church dos not allow women into priesthood, does not allow gay unions, does not consider the Jews its elder brothers, does not tolerate homosexual priests and allows its priests to marry. Perhaps it has a good chance to compete with other churches for the flock and clergy.

Thus Moscow Church will be free of tenets it voluntarily accepted. Regarding communion, the Russian church can retain communion with Phanar and Jerusalem and with other Orthodox churches, even with splinter churches on reciprocity basis. Moreover, the Russian Church may allow communion with Catholics. At present, Catholics allow Russians to receive communion, but the Russian Church do not allow their flock to accept Catholic communion and does not allow Catholics to receive communion in Russian churches. With all the differences between the churches, we the Christians can share communion, flesh and blood of our Saviour, and this all we need.

All this is extremely relevant for the Holy Land. The Patriarch of Jerusalem, His Beatitude Theophilos does not want to quarrel with Constantinople nor with Moscow. He won’t excommunicate the priests of Phanar despite Moscow’s requests, and I think he is right. Ban on communion in the Holy Sepulchre of Jerusalem or in the Nativity of Bethlehem would become a heavy unnecessary and self-inflicted punishment for Russian pilgrims. That is why it makes sense to retain joint communion, while voiding the territorial principle.

Russian church may nominate its bishops in Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Nazareth to attract the flock presently neglected by the traditional Patriarchate of Jerusalem. I mean the Palestinian Christians and Israeli Christians, hundreds of thousands of them.

The Church of Jerusalem is, and had been ruled by ethnic Greeks since the city was conquered by the Ottomans in 16th century. The Turks removed local Arab Orthodox clerics and appointed their loyal Greeks. Centuries passed by, the Turks are gone, the Greeks are loyal only to themselves, and they do not care much about the natives. They do not allow Christian Palestinian monks to join monasteries, they bar them from holding bishop cathedra and do not let them into the council of the church (called Synod). This flagrant discrimination annoys Palestinian Christians; many of them turned to the Catholic, or even Protestant churches. The flock is angry and ready to rise in revolt against the Greeks, like the Syrian Orthodox did in 1898, when they expelled the Greek bishops and elected an Arab Patriarch of Antioch – with Russian support. (Until that time the Patriarch of Antioch had been elected in Istanbul by Phanar monks exclusively from the «Greeks by race», as they said in those days, and as is the custom of the See of Jerusalem now).

Last Christmas, the Patriarch of Jerusalem had been blocked from entering the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem by angry local Christians, and only Israeli army allowed him to get in. If the Russian Church will establish its bishops in the Holy Land, or even appoint her own Patriarch of Rum (traditional name of the Church) many churches of the Holy Land will accept him, and many faithful will find the church that they can relate to. For the Greek leadership of the Jerusalem church is interested in pilgrimage churches only; they care for pilgrims from Greece and for Greeks in the Holy Land.

ORDER IT NOW

There are many Russian Orthodox in Israel; the Greeks of the Church do not attend to their needs. Since 1948, not a single new church had been built by the Orthodox in Israel. Big cities with many Christians – Beer Sheba, Afula, touristy Eilat – have no churches at all. For sure, we can partly blame Israeli authorities and their hatred of Christianity. However, the Church of Jerusalem is not trying hard enough to erect new churches.

There is a million of immigrants from Russia in Israel. Some of them were Christians, some want to enter the church, being disappointed by brutal and hostile Judaism. They had some romantic image of the Jewish faith, being brought up in atheist USSR, but the reality was not even similar. Not only them; Israelis of every origin are unhappy with Judaism that exists now in Israel. They are ready for Christ. A new church of the Holy Land established by Russians can bring Israelis, Jews and non-Jews, native Palestinians and immigrants to Christ.

Thus Phanar’s rejection of territorialism can be used for the greater glory of the Church. Yes, the Russian church will change its character and assume some of global, ecumenical function. This is big challenge; I do not know whether the Russians are ready for it, whether the Patriarch of Moscow Kyril is daring enough for it.

His Church is rather timid; the bishops do not express their views in public. However, a Moscow priest Fr Vsevolod Chaplin, who was close to the Patriarch until recently, publicly called for full reformatting of the Orthodox Christianity, for getting rid of rotten boroughs and phantoms, for establishing sturdy connection between laity and Patriarchate. Without great push by the incautious Patriarch Bartholomew, these ideas could gestate for years; now they can come forth and change the face of the faith.

Israel Shamir can be reached at [email protected]

This article was first published at The Unz Review.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Russia, Russian Orthodox Church, Ukraine 
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  1. Your “let us all just be friends” only work on a person to person level not the spiritual. The Russian and true Ukraine Churches are doing what is right. Soon the nazi stormtrooper will kill old grandmothers defending their church in Ukraine, all because 1 greedy power hungry old fool was easy to lead astray.

    • Replies: @sszorin
  2. Always enlightening and thought provoking.

  3. geokat62 says:

    Constantinople, the Christian capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, the greatest city of his time, the seat of Roman emperors, was conquered by the Ottoman Turks in 1452

    According to Wiki:

    The Fall of Constantinople… was the capture of the capital of the Byzantine Empire by an invading Ottoman army on 29 May 1453.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople

  4. tac says:

    what the Jews will lie (as this is their profession) about will any of you ‘curious’ individuals EVER simply examine and make up your own minds? Your conditioning speaks directly to your ephemeral curiosity?

    https://littlerevolution.us/

    https://www.bitchute.com/channel/littlerevolution/

  5. @geokat62

    First, using Wikipedia as a reference source is rather déclassé. You are right, however–Wikipedia is right, however–Constantinople did fall in 1493 and Mr. Shamir was wrong. However, as the title of The Cambridge History of the Byzantine Empire c.500-1492 (sic) tells, the empire was gone in 1492. We all make mistakes and a few months’ difference in events that happened over 500 years ago seems of little significance. That you needed to bring it to our attention has far more significance to me.

  6. sszorin says:
    @Per/Norway

    Your comment is incoherent. What exactly do you want to say ?

  7. @geokat62

    You are right, sorry, misprint!

    • Agree: Jett Rucker
  8. FB says:

    Well…now we have the second installment of the Great Orthodox Schism Controversy…

    I must say that Shamir does spin a rather lively story here…rather more gripping than Saker’s sombre monograph of a few weeks ago…

    One is tantalized by images of dancing Israelis who are ‘ready for Christ’…and French and Italians converting en masse to Orthodoxy…[what with all the advantages outlined here by Shamir, I must admit it does sound rather attractive, for anyone thinking of 'trading in' so to speak...]

    A possible ‘takeover’ of the Patriarchate of Rum [will they add Coke...?]…the possibilities are endless…

    ‘A new church of the Holy Land established by Russians can bring Israelis, Jews and non-Jews, native Palestinians and immigrants to Christ.’

    Amen to that Brother Shamir…Amen…

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  9. FromSA says:

    I usually like Shamir’s writings but this article clearly shows up his shortcomings on this particular subject. He treats the whole affair as if it is a business deal and then tallies up the pluses and the minuses for the Russian Orthodox church. He forgets that the Russian church was massively persecuted and that for them doing the correct thing in God’s site is the only thing.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  10. I’ll never understand why the American internet is getting so worked up about this.

  11. The spacious country with its hard-working people, fertile black soil, the cream of Soviet industry producing aircraft, missiles, trains and tractors, with the best and largest army within the Warsaw Treaty, with its universities, good roads, proximity to Europe, expensive infrastructure connecting East and West, the Ukraine had a much better chances for success than rump Russia.

    Soviet-era industries couldn’t compete in the modern capitalist economy, and were destined to die. Post-communist Ukraine had no capable class of entrepreneurs, its univercities couldn’t meet the demands of the market economy, Ukrainian workers lacked marketable skills. It was a recipe for failure. Russia had all the same problems of course, but it also retained its vast reserves of oil and gas…

  12. ” The Russian Church will suffer a great loss, comparable to the emergence of the Anglican church for the Catholics. ”
    The loss of the catholic church because of the Anglican church indeed was horrible, financially.
    Not just catholic priests in England suffered, archbishops on the continent, of British sees, who had never been in England, suffered enormously.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  13. Isidora says:

    While I respect and generally enjoy Shamir’s intellect and writing skills, in this topic he is completely out of his depth. He recommends actions which would totally destroy Christ’s Church on earth, deforming it into a mere worldly contestant for the praise of men.

    The one true Church is not an episode in political gamesmanship–regardless how heretical bishops may behave from time to time–but Shamir only relates to it in terms of what behaviors would yield the greatest worldly satisfaction in political power. This is the fatal road the Roman church went down (labeled with the year 1054) when their mere bishop decided he needs to be the Pope of the entire world and so broke communion and excommunicated the rest of the Church (which remained Orthodox). The papacy then went on to a successful pursuit of worldly power through the sword that continues to this day. Restore communion with the Roman pope??? Is Shamir crazy??? Each pope puts himself in the place of Christ (antichrist), and true Orthodox will never have Eucharist with that.

    Russia’s mistake and the mistake of the rest of Orthodoxy is to have gone along with Constantinople (out of brotherly love and respect for Tradition) for the past 100 years of her micro-heresies. The First and Most Egregious action by Constantinople was to exploit the bloody Soviet persecution of the Church in Russia to declare that the rest of the Orthodox world must switch from the Church calendar to the secular, civil calendar devised by the Latins. This was the kickoff of a chain of heretical actions which are continuing throughout the world, to the extent that now so-called churches contemplate legitimizing women priests, sodomy, pedophilia, and turning the Eucharist into a cafeteria.

    The USA is 100% actively behind the actions in Ukraine and the Phanar. In fact no one can be enthroned in Constantinople without the sponsorship of the CIA. So this arch-heretic Bartholomew of the Phanar “elevates” an excommunicated prideful heretic, Philaret, to be the “head” a new “orthodox church in Ukraine.” This is the empire seeking to destroy the strength of Russia, which is Orthodoxy. The Evil wants to turn Orthodoxy into a beautiful whitewashed tomb: resplendent cathedrals, sumptuous robes, exalted chanting, artful icons, politically correct bishops. But inside it will be full of dead men’s bones.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @RI
  14. geokat62 says:
    @Macon Richardson

    That you needed to bring it to our attention has far more significance to me.

    See comment#7 for what a classy response looks like. Mr. Shamir took the correction embedded in my comment in exactly the spirit in which it was given: simply a correction… nothing more, nothing less.

    P.S. So recognized is the actual date that he was motivated to correct the date in the main body of the article.

  15. Anonymous[266] • Disclaimer says:

    A Jewsus-worshiper would write “first of all Jerusalem.” It’s always “the Jew first” (Romans 1:16) with them.

    • Troll: Che Guava
    • Replies: @Svigor
  16. AP says:

    This part is really fake:

    The vast majority of Ukrainian Orthodox Christians and their bishops are content with their status within the Russian Church.

    Now, if you mean the smaller number of adherents who currently are under Moscow it is true. but if you mean all Ukrainians who consider themselves to be Orthodox it is a false statement.

    Every poll shows about twice as many people adhering to the local splinter Churches than to the official Church under Moscow. Every one.

    Here is the most recent and comprehensive one:

    http://razumkov.org.ua/uploads/article/2018_Religiya.pdf

    Which Orthodox Church do you belong to (pg. 17)?

    Kiev Patriarch – 22.1% in 2010, 42.6% in 2018
    UOC- Moscow – 34.5% in 2010, 19.1% in 2018
    “Just Orthodox” – 37.9% 2010, 34.8% 2018

    So since 2010 support for local splinter Churches has doubled and that of the Moscow Church has shrunk.

    Also important to keep in mind – the West and Center is where people are more religious and go to church more often. These are the regions where the splinter Churches are strongest.

    Page 12 – Percent of the population who consider themselves to be religious. 90.1% in Western Ukraine, 70% in the Center, 58.5% in the South, 63% in the East.

    Page 14 – percent of people who say religion is important to them. 89% in the West, 55% in the Center, 50% in the South, 40% in the East.

    Now, remember that Ukraine’s West and Center are where the religious people live. Which Church to the actually religious regions belong to?

    Pg. 17 (among Orthodox)

    In the West, 64.1% Kiev, 15.2% Moscow.
    In the Center, 48.2% Kiev, 17.7% Moscow.

    ::::::::::::::::::

    So while Mr. Shamir may be correct about the EP’s goals, his background is wrong. EP is not supporting some small marginal number of nationalists but a majority of Ukraine’s Orthodox who refuse to be under a Church even nominally under Moscow.

    It’s a low-hanging fruit easy for the picking.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Old Jew
  17. Mr. Hack says:

    As Shamir so clearly points out throughout this long and disjointed harangue, there really is no functioning mechanism within Orthodoxy to mend its various contentious branches. So, the good news is that within Ukraine the principle of religious freedom will be allowed to exist – each individual will be allowed to worship his own Creator in the manner that most closely reflects his own spiritual needs and preferences of conscience. There are peaceful and progressive areas within Ukraine (Bar) where confessions on both sides of the national and spiritual spectrum have now coexisted for decades harmoniously, literally side by side: St. Assumption Orthodox Cathedral, St. Anna Roman Catholic Cathedral. Communion is practiced here not only within the church structures, but civilly upon the street that connects both of these magnificent edifices.

  18. AP says:
    @Isidora

    . So this arch-heretic Bartholomew of the Phanar “elevates” an excommunicated prideful heretic, Philaret, to be the “head” a new “orthodox church in Ukraine.”

    Filaret has not been elevated (yet).

  19. Che Guava says:
    @FromSA

    Please learn the difference between ‘site’ and ‘sight’.

    • Replies: @FromSA
  20. Israeli authorities hate Christianity… Don’t they know who leavens their challah?

  21. Che Guava says:
    @jilles dykstra

    Jilles,

    Much more. Destruction of abbeys and monasterys (if not destroyed, became dwellings for the minor nobility), destruction of decorative arts at major and minor places of worship.

    I am not so familiar with the Dutch ‘reformation’, except in the political sense, but in the physical and heritage sense, would expect it was much like the English and Welsh version, and the later Scots version.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    , @utu
  22. Big Bill says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Soviet-era industries couldn’t compete in the modern capitalist economy, and were destined to die. Post-communist Ukraine had no capable class of entrepreneurs, its univercities couldn’t meet the demands of the market economy, Ukrainian workers lacked marketable skills. It was a recipe for failure.

    Even worse, all their peasant farmers can be replaced by a handful of modern western farmers with bigger Western tractors and combines.

    One wonders why they didn’t just recognize their industrial, educational, agricultural irrelevance in the Modern Capitalist Economy, curl up and die. What earthly use are they? Even Chinese peasants consume less, produce more and are therefore more economically efficient.

    • Disagree: FB
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  23. Che Guava says:
    @geokat62

    Hah! I was going to say the same thing, but from memory, not stupid Wikipaedia.

    You were inB4.

    However, fragments of the Eastern Roman Empire continued a little longer, on the northern Black Sea shores of Anatolia, fates of the rulers much the same, but they were still there.

  24. Giuseppe says:

    Very thoughtful article. While the brilliant conclusion that there could be advantages in abandoning the territorial principle in Orthodoxy might offer some hope to the incoherent situation in the American Church, on the other hand letting go of territoriality sacrifices regionalism for globalism. So is this a great opportunity or an execration? That would depend on whether the Patriarchs are intent on building Christ’s Kingdom, or their own.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  25. @Che Guava

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wycliffe

    George Macaulay Trevelyan, ‘England in the Age of Wycliffe’, 1899, 1906, London
    As usual, the book is far better than the oracle.
    When one reads the book one is flabbergasted how the greedy cantholic church sucked money from those fearing hell, and about what incomes (arch)bishops got out of England, ‘dignitaries’ who’d never crossed the channel, and whose clerical obligations in England were performed by someone hired at say one thousand’s of the income of the (arch)bishop.
    Cannot see much difference between the catholic church then and Tibetan monasteries, also quite good in bleeding people white for the well being of the souls of their ancestors.
    L. Austine Waddell, ‘Lhasa and its mysteries, With a record of the British Tibetan Expedition of 1903-1904’, New York, 1905, 1988
    L. Austine Waddell, ‘Tibetan Buddism, With its Mystic Cults, Symbolism and Mythology’, New York 1972, (London 1895)
    Heinrich Harrer, ‘Zeven jaar in Tibet, Mijn leven aan het hof van de Dalai Lama’, 1987, 1998, Amsterdam/ Antwerpen (Sieben Jahre in Tibet, mein Leben am Hofe des Dalai Lama, Wien 1952, 1996 Frankfurt am Main)
    Being a personal fiend of the Dalai Lama Harrer’s picture is a bit rosy
    A criminal organistion, the catholic church, not just say the past hundred years in abusing children, but maybe all the time.
    Honest farmer’s son Luther went to Rome, was shocked about morals there, and nailed his protest to a chuch door.
    In the Netherlands the catholic church never had much influence, common people were just christianised in say the 13th century.
    Holland, is the better description, never was very feudal, the water geography prevented large estates
    Of course, even now one can see that the catholic church was rich, but never comparable to say France.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  26. and in other news: Peak Retard!

    Jewish leaders call for new editions of the Bible and the Koran to carry trigger warnings highlighting anti-Semitic passages

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6421233/Jewish-leaders-call-religious-texts-carry-warnings-highlighting-anti-Semitic-passages.html?ito=social-twitter_mailonline

    Jewish leaders are calling for new editions of the Bible and Koran to carry warning messages which highlight anti-Semitic passages in the holy texts.

    The recommendations have been made in a new document called ‘An End to Antisemitism! A Catalogue of Policies to Combat Antisemitism’.

    It was produced following an international conference organised by the European Jewish Congress, at which academics gathered to discuss how prejudice and discrimination can be tackled.

    Among the policies mentioned in the document was the idea of warning messages in holy texts, a topic discussed in a chapter entitled ‘recommendations regarding Religious Groups and Institutions’.

    There are several themes in the New Testament that have come under fire for their use as justification for anti-Semitic attitudes.

    These include the blame of Jews for the death of Jesus and the seemingly stubborn nature of the Jewish people and their disloyalty to God.

    While there are some negative remarks about Jews in the Koran, and negative portrayals of the people.

    ‘The fact that anti-Semitism has infected the body of the Church is something of which we as Christians must be deeply repentant. We live with the consequences of our history of denial and complicity.’

    ‘The manifestations of this hatred resulted in a tradition of antisemitism that gave moral legitimacy to crimes against the Jewish people, the epitome of which is the Shoah.’

    Other areas highlighted, following the conference, include addressing anti-Semitism online and within research organisations and academic institutions.

    This includes ensuring internet search engines privilege positive depictions of Judaism and accurate descriptions of the history of anti-Semitism.

    Dr Christine Joynes, a theology lecturer at Oxford, told The Times that she had ‘some sympathy’ over the suggestion of an annotated bible.

    But said: ‘The whole Bible needs a health warning to read it through the right critical lens and in historical context.’

    While Muhammad Abdel Haleem, professor of Islamic Studies at the University of London, and also speaking to The Times said that the Koran is entirely negative towards Jews.

    He said: ‘If someone wants to get involved in antisemitism or anti-Islamic behaviour, they will do it whether or not you add warnings and footnotes.

    • Replies: @Svigor
  27. FB says:
    @Felix Keverich

    You’re full of shit…what the heck do you know about industry you useless little fart…?…are you an industrial engineer…do you have any technical qualifications whatsoever…or do you just pull buzzwords like ‘marketable skills’ out your wazoo, as needed…?

    The Ukraine certainly had all kinds of ‘entrepreneurs’…they’re called OLIGARCHS…who very capably enriched themselves…unfortunately ‘entrepreneurs’ are what normal people would call parasites, flim-flam men and hucksters…

    As for Ukrainian workers lacking ‘marketable skills’…I guess that would be ‘skills’ like TROLLING, your specialty…and making retarded statements on discussion fora…

    Ukraine had more very qualified engineers per capita than any country in Europe…a huge amount of intellectual capacity, and a very good industrial base…especially in high tech areas like aerospace and propulsion…their problem was that they chose to play games with the rotten west, instead of friendship with Russia, with which their industry was integrated…

    You’re a complete wanker in the A. Karlin mold…get lost…you have nothing to contribute dirtbag…

  28. @Big Bill

    They fought that it was Russia, that was holding them back, and by separating they could quickly achieve Western European standard of living. The first guy to become president of independent Ukraine promised people that they were going to “live like France”….in 5 years (!). lol

    So their plan was something like this:

    step 1: Separate from Russia.

    step 2: …

    step 3: France

    Lately, they began to think that the Ukraine’s path to prosperity goes through EU membership, hence popular support for Euromaidan, and you know the results…

  29. @FB

    You’re full of shit…what the heck do you know about industry you useless little fart…?…are you an industrial engineer…do you have any technical qualifications whatsoever…or do you just pull buzzwords like ‘marketable skills’ out your wazoo, as needed…?

    Your industries are worth ZERO, if you’re unable to sell your products, and the Ukraine struggled to sell its manufactured goods after 1991. Its traditional customer – Russia began to import Western goods.

    You sound like Martyanov. lol It doesn’t take any “special qualification” to figure out that Soviet-era factories were churning out worthless crap – there is a reason why that system fell apart, you know.

    Now, off to ignore list with you.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Svigor
  30. Gordo says:

    Informative as always Dr Shamir.

  31. FB says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Thanks for confirming that you have zero credentials in any technical field…yet you are somehow posing as someone qualified to talk about industry…

    Glad you are blocking me you little worm…the Ostrich response…do you cover your eyes and ears when your teacher or parent [or caregiver, since you are obviously retarded] says something that is true but which you don’t want to hear…?

    As for Soviet era factories churning out ‘worthless crap’…that would include the world’s best rocket engines, decades ahead of the west’s technology…?

    What a worthless little shrimp…

  32. @Felix Keverich

    Liberast opinion. People with this views destroyed the country, caused massive displacement and demographic and social catastrophes. People with your views should not be allowed to the levers of power for the distance of avangard shot. If to follow your logic USA and China must dismantle and sell as scrap metal their MIC as they both clearly cannot compete with Russian MIC. National manufacturing of everything is not about competition. It is about souverenity in everything and national capability to provide own population both with goods and means to make a living via manufacturing of everything needed. Current situation with so much of everything made in China is an abomination that hurts too much people around the globe. People with your views in Russia should be purged and preferably executed for crimes against former Soviet people.

    • Agree: FB
  33. I find it strange that shamir who professes communist views is paying so much attention to this basically religious spat about power and money. Wasn’t it once th as t that religion is opium for masses. It is here to keep population down so that it is easily fleeced by thieves. The only value for Russia in orthodoxy at the moment is that the country completely devote of ideology as per constitution there must be something to hold people together and give some meaning to their existence.

  34. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    At issue is the accuracy of such polling, in conjunction with the pressure that has been put on the UOC-MP.

    In any event, there’s also the matter of popularity between the UOC-MP versus the UAOC and UGCC. It’d be grossly unfair to seek the complete elimination of the UOC-MP, based on the popularity between these three churches. Never mind the issue of the UAOC and UOC-KP coordinating things between themselves on a single UOC among them – let alone the UOC-MP factor.

    As for those inaccurately stereotyping the UOC-MP background as the appendage of a foreign power, one can say much the same of the UGCC, which supports a single UOC, even though the UGCC isn’t an OC. I’m sure the UGCC would be towing a different line if it was targeted (thru pressure) to become a part of the UOC.

    The above linked article exaggerates the ROCOR ties with Nazi Germany. Some in that church were more soft on the latter than others. As time went by, that popularity became even less. Not so different from how Nazi Germany was initially perceived by some others in the West before all hell really broke loose. Some whataboutism notes the Vatican-Nazi ties, as well as the Soviet cooperation with Nazi Germany.

    • Replies: @AP
  35. Mr. Shamir suggests a smarter course of action than the Moscow Church adopted. That’s natural: Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kirill (Gundyayev) is certainly not the brightest bulb in a chandelier. I am sure Mr. Shamir (with a typical Orthodox Christian name: Israel) is more intelligent. But he is not leading Russian Orthodox Church. Maybe he should.

    Reminds one of a Russian joke.
    A Jew comes to rabbi seeking advice. Rabbi says:
    - Look, Moses said that everyone should follow the ten commandments, Jesus said “if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also”, Spinoza said “cogito ergo sum”, Einstein said that it’s all relative, while Freud said that all problems spring from your sexual inhibitions…
    - Why are you telling me all that?
    - Because there are as many opinions as there are Jews. Use your own brains!

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @israel shamir
  36. @Sergey Krieger

    The country is “devoid” of ideology. Even that is not quite true: the powers push imperial greatness as an ideology, having learned from neighbors’ example that primeval tribal nationalism can ruin any country.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  37. @Giuseppe

    Did you ever see Patriarchs (or Popes, for that matter) who actually wanted something not for themselves? That includes Kingdoms.

  38. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AnonFromTN

    One Svido leaning academic mentioned the language issue regarding the OC situation in Ukraine.

    The UOC-KP and UAOC take a nationalist position by noting (among other things) how their churches use the Ukrainian language in services. The UOC-MP takes the traditional route by using Church Slavonic, as is true of the Serb and Bulgarian churches, as well as all churches loosely affiliated with the MP. Been informed that the Romanian Orthodox Church (at least some of them) also use Church Slavonic.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @israel shamir
  39. @AnonFromTN

    Whatever they are pushing it won’t take Russia far. People are not idiots. They know they were robbed and are being fleeced now.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  40. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Sergey Krieger

    In cyber, there’s the claim that IS was baptized as an Orthodox Christian. Not sure how accurate that is. I’ve also heard that Zyuganov considers himself as an OC – again not sure of whether that’s accurate. The KPRF has been known to take pro-ROC positions – at least some.

    The present ROC-MP is generally not so enthusiastic about the Soviet legacy. That said I understand there’s for (lack of a better term) element of ROCs who take a more Sovok leaning line.

    • Replies: @AP
  41. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    At issue is the accuracy of such polling, in conjunction with the pressure that has been put on the UOC-MP

    According to you all polls are inaccurate. Very funny.

    I’m sure the UGCC would be towing a different line if it was targeted (thru pressure) to become a part of the UOC.

    UGCC is irrelvant here – I was posting data about the various Orthodox Churches and their support among Ukraine’s self-identified Orthodox people.

    Increasingly, the UOC – Moscow is becoming the church of Crimeans, ethnic Russians, and the small Russian nationalist fringe. The smaller it gets as Ukrainians continue to leave, the more pro-Russia it will be. It has the right to exist as such, of course, but let’s not pretend it is something different from that.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  42. @Mikhail

    The language issue is just a pretext. Church Slavonic is no closer to modern Russian than to modern Ukrainian (BTW, what do they mean by Ukrainian – the literary Poltava version, or one of Western Ukrainian dialects, which are quite different from literary Ukrainian and from each other).

    Anyway, it’s clearly a political issue pushed by the Kiev regime, simply because it failed in everything tangible on Earth, so wants at least a fake success in Heaven. Like the regime itself, this push has full support of the Washington politburo. That’s the whole story.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  43. @Sergey Krieger

    If memory serves, the last uprising against the robbery was in 1993, 25 years ago. The regime skillfully used Ukrainian idiocy and American machinations to its advantage. The regime also skillfully uses the fact that self-proclaimed “opposition” falls into two categories: subservient lesser thieves, like the so-called communist party, and pathetic nonentities, like Navalny and similar scum. But we’ll see what happens next.

  44. @Sergey Krieger

    Sergey, I am a communist sympathiser and a Christian, so for me – and for millions – it is relevant. Indeed, once communists were atheist, but not anymore. And I think it is a gross simplification to say that questions of faith are about money and power. They are about money and power, too, but this is not their most important feature. Probably you have learned in school the poem 12 by Alexander Block with his vision of Christ leading the Red squad. So these ideas fit together perfectly.

  45. @Mikhail

    I am not sure it is so. I went to a service at St Vladimir Cathedral in Kiev, the most beautiful church of the city in the hands of “Kiev Patriarchate”, and the service was in Old Slavonic, as in Russia proper, while the sermon was in Russian. Probably one could confess in Ukrainian…

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Mikhail
  46. @AnonFromTN

    Israel is a perfectly good Christian name; however I was baptised as “Adam”, and I do often sign as Israel Adam Shamir.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  47. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    I’ve also heard that Zyuganov considers himself as an OC – again not sure of whether that’s accurate.

    I know Zyuganov’s family personally (not well, we sat at a table, talked and drank together at a mutual friend’s birthday party in Moscow).

    His daughter is a very devout and sincere Orthodox Christian.

  48. @israel shamir

    The name is not an issue, although I can’t recall a single Orthodox (or atheist, for that matter) ethnic Russian with a name “Israel”. The issue is that recent converts often show more zeal than those who belonged to a particular religion (or religion-like ideology, such as communism or globalism) from early years of their lives. I do think that your suggestions are much smarter than what the Synod decided to do, but they are even more worldly and less Christian than actions of the Russian Church. It is equally clear that actions of Bart and Poroshenko have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics. Both are desperate failures trying to redeem themselves in some way. Then again, I do not belong to any church, was never baptized or otherwise introduced into any religion, so my opinion is totally non-religious.

  49. @israel shamir

    Now, here I must agree. The teachings of Christ were communist, as anyone reading the New Testament can see. The episode with money changers fully describes how true Christians should view bankers.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    , @Excal
  50. Mr. Hack says:
    @israel shamir

    I’ve attended mass at St. Vladimir’s too, and not heard a single word uttered in Russian nor Church Slavonic, and this was a few years back. I’m sure that if anything, it’s even more Ukrainian now than it was then. If Church Slavonic was used during the mass, it must have been very curtailed. Their official website is all in Ukrainian – no Russian. http://www.katedral.org.ua/rozklad.html

  51. Mr. Hack says:
    @israel shamir

    I am a communist sympathiser and a Christian,

    So, for the sake of clarity, are we to believe that you’re a ‘sympathizer’ of the type of communism that was practiced in the Soviet Union for about 65 years? Save me the routine about ‘nothing is ever perfect’, a simple yes or no will suffice.

  52. Agent76 says:

    6 October 2018 Russian Orthodox Church severs links with Constantinople

    The break came after the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople recognised the independence of the Ukrainian Church from Moscow.

    https://cruxnow.com/church-in-europe/2018/10/15/russian-orthodox-church-breaks-ties-with-orthodoxys-leader/

  53. @israel shamir

    I agree regarding Crist. But Kirill ain’t Crist and he ain’t communist either. Which leave us with dilemma. How one can be both communist and religious man devoted to organized official religion. It is obvious that religion is being pushed to make population lethargic and make it forget that they are basically suckers who allowed few sly scoundrels to rob them and keep robbing. If God exists He has nothing to do with any church.

    • Replies: @Denis
  54. Mr. Hack says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Russia had all the same problems of course [as Ukraine], but it also retained its vast reserves of oil and gas…

    So both countries had the same crummy type of system (and still do), however, Russia was the lucky recipient of large energy resources, that has enabled it to fashion a higher GDP. Unless you can prove that somehow Russia is willing to share this largess with Ukraine, why should Ukraine crawl back on its knees and become a part of the ‘Russian Mir’? Ukraine needs to look elsewhere and learn to rely on itself to find its way in the world – there’s nothing to be gained by aligning itself in the near future with Russia.

  55. Cyrano says:

    I think it’s all a terrible misunderstanding. The reason why the Ukrainian Orthodox Church split from the Russian is because they heard that the Russian Orthodox Church is in charge of canonization. Those dummies are mixing military with religious terms. Russian Orthodox Church wasn’t planning on bombarding the Ukrainians, although to be honest, the way the Ukrainians are acting, it wouldn’t be uncalled for if someone used some cannons on them.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  56. wayfarer says:

    But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of stress.

    For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, inhuman, implacable, slanderers, profligates, fierce, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding the form of religion but denying the power of it.

    Avoid such people.

    source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2_Timothy_3

    Elon Musk: Something Unbelievable is Happening Worldwide

    • Replies: @Agent76
  57. @Cyrano

    the way the Ukrainians are acting, it wouldn’t be uncalled for if someone used some cannons on them

    You are forgetting the difference between primeval nationalistic savages and civilized people. Although Ukraine bombs, shells, and shoots civilians in Donbass, this does not mean that Russia must stoop as low as that scum. Unlike Ukraine, Russia has time on its side. So, whoever is ruling Russia only needs to stock up on popcorn and wait for the morons to ruin whatever remains and kill each other, or for the healthy forces in Ukraine to hang those morons on the lampposts. If there are no healthy forces, than the ruler of Russia only needs to wait a bit longer, until the morons create another Chernobyl on a nuclear power plant or similar catastrophe on one of the remaining chemical plants. After that impotent European cowards would crawl to the Russian ruler begging him/her to take hand grenades away from monkeys. The EU would even pay for the operation and agree to forgive the debts: otherwise Russia won’t lift a finger.

    • Agree: Cyrano
    • Replies: @KievCameBeforeMoscow
  58. Denis says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    There are today possibly millions of believers in Russia alone who also vote for communist parties. Although some leftists are hostile to certain religions, others aren’t.

    Karl Marx for example, was not hostile to Christians or Christianity at all, and was actually rather fond of both the religion and its followers, even though he was not religious himself. In your previous comment, you brought up Marx’ “Opium of the Masses” turn of phrase; if you’d look up his full statement where that phrase appears, you’ll see that he was not condemning the religion, but observing the social role that it plays as a crutch to lean on for the oppressed common man.

  59. The grant of 1686 which “gave” Kyiv to Moscow carried certain conditions. Those condition were never fulfilled. Consequently, the Ecumenical Patriarch has withdrawn the grant form Moscow. The withdrawal is quite legal, no matter the author’s whining to the contrary.

    Ukraine is going to get Auotcephaly, and the ROC-KP will either join, or be left behind. Moscow can whine about the loss, but the ROC is simply a cultural accouterment in Russia. Putin, and people supposedly in the know, think Putin is a RO Christian. His actions in Ukraine have shown, quite clearly, that he is anything but.

    Mr. Shamir demonstrates the same ignorance of Ukraine Saker does. Other ins the comments are even worse. Ukraine is rising and improving. Putinist Russia, on the other hand, is declining, and the idiot is spending money on his imperial ambitions and is looting the country to enrich himself, his cronies, and pursue his ambitions. Russia is now a pathetic shadow of itself and is more corrupt than Ukraine. The country is slowly turning on Putin and he will either go on his own more he will turn to the sort of repression that is seen in Crimea, which he has tuned into a prison camp. There is a very serious question as to what form Russia will have in 10 years. It is not likely that it will look like ti does now.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mikhail
  60. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    AP Corrected Again

    According to you all polls are inaccurate. Very funny.

    Not at all. Some of them are for sure. That poll could very well be off.

    UGCC is irrelvant here – I was posting data about the various Orthodox Churches and their support among Ukraine’s self-identified Orthodox people.

    What you consider as irrelevant (not your misspelled irrelvant) isn’t so. UGCC wants one UOC independent of the MP, while not being an OC. It’s pertinent to note that they aren’t larger than the UOC-MP. Ditto the UAOC. It’s alos appropriate to answer those who inaccurately portray the UOC-MP as some sort of foreign creation, given the history of the UGCC.

    Increasingly, the UOC – Moscow is becoming the church of Crimeans, ethnic Russians, and the small Russian nationalist fringe. The smaller it gets as Ukrainians continue to leave, the more pro-Russia it will be. It has the right to exist as such, of course, but let’s not pretend it is something different from that.

    The UOC-KP is a 1992 created politicized entity with one of its churches having a mural of the Azov Nazi symbol used during WW II and another depicting Filaret as some kind of great figure – quite arrogant/cultist, given that he’s still alive.

    Exhibited manner like that can understandably turn off a noticeable number of Ukrainians who while identifying themselves as Ukrainian, don’t buy into the anti-Russian Svido BS.

    As IS notes, the UOC-MP is very much autonomous from the ROC-MP.

    • Replies: @AP
  61. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AnonFromTN

    I’m referring to the modern day standardized Ukrainian which the Soviets encouraged, along with diaspora Ukrainians.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  62. @Denis

    Thank you. An intelligent comment for once.

    • Replies: @Denis
  63. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Quartermaster

    You’re even more ignorant, as evidenced by the manner of your hit and run trolling at these threads. The OC in Russia, Ukraine and Belarus all go back to when Rus adopted Christianity. Thereafter, these lands became separate, with Ukraine (at least much of it) falling under the subjugation of the Poles.

    Following the Mongol subjugation period, the northern area of Rus (modern day Russia) became the strongest and most independent of Rus territory. This transformation of influence/power was becoming evident before the mongol occupation.

    “Constantinople” doesn’t have Vatican like powers, thereby explaining why its recent move concerning the UOC is very much unpopular ,among the majority of the national OC churches.

    Since reunifying with Russia: Crimea has become virtually bloodless – especially when compared to Kiev regime controlled Ukraine and the rebel held Donbass areas.

    Someone thinking along your lines, posted this, while not being offering any rebuttal to it:

    http://www.academia.edu/37358188/Michael_Averko_Consistency_and_Reality_Lacking_on_Crimea

  64. Mikhail says: • Website
    @israel shamir

    Very interesting and in contradiction to what a certain North American pro-UOC-KP academic was suggesting.

    As you and some others here know, Russian language use in Kiev regime controlled Ukraine remains quite evident – even among those taking a not so Russia unfriendly line.

    I suspect that UOC-KP churches in places like Galicia and Volhynia, as well as the UAOC have their services in Ukrainian.

    The UOC-MP’s website is trilingual:

    http://church.ua/

    Some interesting p;pieces at that site.

  65. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    What you consider as irrelevant (not your misspelled irrelvant)

    Missing a letter is a typo not a spelling error.

    It’s alos appropriate

    LOL.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  66. FromSA says:
    @Che Guava

    I know the difference. A simple mistake does not a moron make. Anything else you wanted to say?

  67. @Mikhail

    That’s not what the most “svidomie” speak. They are from Galicia, they don’t speak Poltava Ukrainian. Standard Ukrainian is melodious and quite beautiful, almost never a consonant without a vowel following it. Western Polonized and Germanized dialects are anything but beautiful. I know the difference well enough: I speak literary Ukrainian and the dialect spoken around Lvov. They are almost as different as Russian and Serbian.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mikhail
  68. Excal says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Insofar as Communism denies that the private ownership of property is a proper feature of political order, it is incompatible with Christianity. Also, insofar as Communism substitutes itself for the political authority of Christ (as properly understood), it is incompatible with Christianity.

    Christ’s attitude toward money and those who deal in it is not illustrated in the story of the scouring of the Temple. Rather, it is illustrated by the story of the widow’s mite, and the payment of the temple tax (which He obtained from the mouth of a fish), and His statement about rendering unto Caesar, and His well-known dictum about the love of money, and other passages as well.

    Those who insist that the Lord despises banking are forced into entertaining acrobatics by the parable of the talents.

    I personally am open to the idea that certain aspects of Communism could be redeemed and Christianised, as aspects of ancient paganism were. Christianity has a remarkable knack for keeping the baby and discarding the bath-water. But the sometimes fashionable trope that Christ Himself was a Communist, or that the early Christians were Communist, is not supported by the evidence.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  69. RI says:
    @Isidora

    Which Church calendar – the one introduced by Julius Caesar? What makes Julian calendar more churchy than the one introduced by Pope Gregorius? Maybe because Julius Caesar was such a christian! Forget about the accuracy.

  70. Anon[161] • Disclaimer says:

    A quick aside: why doesn’t such a politically sensitive website such as this offer HTTPS encryption??

  71. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    They are from Galicia, they don’t speak Poltava Ukrainian.

    People from Lviv speak Poltava literary Ukrainian. Their speech is a bit clipped. One only hears Galician in the villages, it is dying out.

    I speak literary Ukrainian and the dialect spoken around Lvov. They are almost as different as Russian and Serbian.

    LOL.

  72. @AnonFromTN

    Just like America can’t cede parts of its southern states to Mexico just because many Mexicans may live there…Ukraine can’t cede parts of its eastern regions because of a high concentration of Russian speakers.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  73. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Hahaha, your greatest “victory” yet – never minding your absurd differentiation between a spelling error and typo. Filed under what can happen when a superior party (me) interacts with an inferior one (you). The latter can bring down the former a bit.

    As you duck from the actual subject matter at hand.

    • LOL: AP
    • Troll: Mr. Hack
  74. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AnonFromTN

    I’m aware of that as well as the Russo-Ukrainian Surzhyk dialect, that’s more evident in eastern Ukraine. There’s also a Belarusian-Russian form of Surzhyk.

  75. tac says:
    @israel shamir

    Although a Communist and a Bolshevik may not not necessarily be one-in-the-same, are you sympathetic to the Bolshevik history of mass murder and nepotism? Not saying you are, just wanting a clarification on your position.

    One of the better documentaries on Bolshevism can be found here:


    I will refrain any opinion on the matter until a clear clear answer is provided by you.

    • Replies: @israel shamir
  76. utu says:
    @Che Guava

    Dutch were as bad if not worse than English. See wiki “Liever Turks dan Paaps.”
    And see wiki “Priest hunter”.

  77. @utu

    Any book comparable to
    Ian Hernon, ‘Britain’s Forgotten Wars, Colonial Campaigns of the 19th Century’, 2003, 2007, Chalford – Stroud
    about us Dutch ?

  78. @utu

    https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liever_Turks_dan_paaps

    https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaanse_Furie_(Antwerpen)

    Het aantal slachtoffers is niet exact bekend, maar ooggetuigen schatten zevenduizend doden

    What are you talking about ?
    The first link just describes Dutch hatred for (Spanish) catholicism,
    as made clear by the second one, Spanish troops massacring and plundering Antwerp, estimated number of deaths 7000.

    Dutch restraint, in as far as it is possible to judge now, against cruel and brutal Spanish troops always amazed me.
    Gerda H. Kurtz, ‘Kenu Symonsdochter van Haerlem’, Assen, 1956

    Even after Spanish rule was over, villages and towns that had remained catholic were not attacked, plundered, or whatever.
    To this day there remain catholic enclaves in the now protestant, or atheistic Netherlands, such as St Nicolaasga in the N province Friesland.

  79. @Excal

    You are (inadvertently or deliberately) mixing Christianity represented by Christ’s teachings with established Christian Churches (there are many of them, large and small). The Churches are worldly organizations very much interested in money (more often then not interested in nothing else). No matter what they claim, they have very little in common with Jesus.

    Now, if you read the New Testament, you can easily spot two lines. First, Christ did not want to antagonize worldly authorities (hence tax payment and “give unto Caesar what’s Caesar’s”), as his teachings are more about God and Heaven than about Earth. Second, inasmuch as the actions of his commune were not supposed to concern the worldly authorities, he and his disciples practiced communism: neither he nor Apostles had private property, only communal property; recall how he converted Matthew, who used to be a tax collector, but having heard Christ threw the money into the dust, etc.

    I know that those who steal and cheat all week long, then go to church on Sundays and want to call themselves Christians, would disagree. If you are a least part Christian, you should know that their behavior is going to be taken into account at the Last Judgment.

    • Replies: @Excal
    , @Seraphim
  80. @KievCameBeforeMoscow

    It wasn’t a question of ceding, it was a question of rational policies of a highly heterogeneous Ukrainian state. If the powers ruling Ukraine ever cared about the country, rather than about lining their pockets, they would have made many languages official, including Ukrainian, its dialects, Russian, Hungarian, Romanian, Crimean Tatar, etc. However, blind primeval nationalism of Ukie Nazis made it a question of ceding. I am not sure there is a way back to normal, but I am sure there is no light at the end of the tunnel they are speeding into.

  81. @Denis

    I was talking about social role.

    • Replies: @Denis
  82. Denis says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    Just to be clear, you are saying that you feel that the Christian religion is bad because its social role is to make people lethargic and easy to rob, and removing it would make people more active and willing to stand up for themselves? I am asking because I am not sure what you mean exactly, although I have read your comments in the thread. Please correct me if I am wrong, and also forgive my long response.

    If people (both Russians and Westerners) are becoming more lethargic and submissive in the face of abuse, it is obviously not Christianity that is making them this way, because the western world is less religious than it has been since Roman times. Even many Westerners (and Russians) who call themselves Christians openly refuse to follow even the most basic commands, such as Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery. Partly as a result of this, they are becoming more submissive and apathetic when their governments do wrong. Also, humorously, they are becoming more superstitious, and they now believe in all sorts of voodoo, like psychoanalysis. Although Russians were less Christian than the West in 1991, they are becoming more religious, and if they continue that way they will go in the direction opposite from the west, which is good.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  83. Food for thought indeed. The Jerusalem Church herself has violated the principle of territoriality by taking decisions over a diocese of the Church of Antioch. I don’t remember exactly what the encroachment consists in at the moment; but it has left bitter feelings. Abolishing this principle officially might start off feuds. Even the Church of Rome forbore to create a diocese in Lvov at the time of JP II in order to preserve peace with the Moscow Patriarchate’s Orthodox Ukrainian Church. But there may be a relation between this principle and the weak missionary endeavours of Orthodox Churches; so indeed, the idea is well worth considering at a time when the glaring loss of the Holy Spirit’s guidance in Western Churches is discouraging and driving away the faithful.

    On a point of detail, Orthodox Churches don’t allow priests to marry; but they open the priesthood to married men. If you’re unmarried and want to join the clergy, you don’t go to a seminar, but into a monastery.

    • Replies: @israel shamir
  84. @Felix Keverich

    Soviet-era indutries, which were extremely competitive in some domains and made the Soviet Empire self-sufficient, were actively plundered to the tune of 10′s of billions of dollars a year (which exited the former USSR to fill foreign accounts) by the Harvard boys, other implementors of the “shock therapy”, and local crooks, not least the semibankirshchina (the 7 banking oligarchs, 6 of whom were Jews).

    “The Killing of William Browder” by Alex Krainer has a fairly complete account of those fateful years, which the Russians thankfully haven’t forgotten.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  85. anonymous[161] • Disclaimer says:

    Phanar? Phantom? Autocephaly? His Ass-Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch? Sheesh!!

    To borrow from a beloved comics series… these pagans are crazy!!

  86. @Denis

    Western public has been dumbed down by another sort of thing. Media, TV, smartphones and the content that is being spread via these devices.

    • Replies: @Denis
  87. Agent76 says:

    May 15, 2017 Ukraine: US-Installed Fascist Rule in Europe’s Heartland

    Will Donetsk Rejoin Russia? The nation shares a near-1,500 mile land and sea border with Russia.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-us-installed-fascist-rule-in-europes-heartland-will-donetsk-rejoin-russia/5590150

    US funded Ukrainian army is terrorizing civilians, 2016

    Russell Bentley is a former US marine, that now fights for the Donbass, Eastern Ukraine, against the US-funded Ukrainian army.

  88. Denis says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    I agree completely, but practicing Christianity does not mean accepting mass media and the vulgar nonsense that comes out of it. Quite the opposite, it demands the rejection of materialism, which is good.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  89. Agent76 says:
    @wayfarer

    This dovetails well with your post.

    Nov 22, 2018 It’s Official: We’re Living in the Prequel to ‘Blade Runner’

    • Replies: @wayfarer
  90. @Jean-Marie L

    Soviet-era indutries, which were extremely competitive in some domains and made the Soviet Empire self-sufficient…

    Any autarky is by definition self-sufficient. North Korea is self-sufficient: its people eat grass, but they do not import food, which makes North Korea self-sufficient in the literal sense of the word. But North Korea is not competitive: it doesn’t produce stuff that anyone wants to buy. And neither did USSR.

    • Replies: @israel shamir
  91. Mr. Shamir makes a valuable contribution on an important (contra @Michael Kenny, see below) and poorly understood matter. Two points of accuracy deserve attention however.

    First, Mr. Shamir claims that Moscow not only has broken communion with Constantinople but with other autocephalous churches that refuse Russian demands to do likewise (“ending communion with the churches that refuse to excommunicate Phanar”). I follow this matter quite closely and am unaware of any such request, which would be (as Mr. Shamir notes) counterproductive. The statement from the Russian Synod states: “From now on, and until the Patriarchate of Constantinople refuses to make anti-canonical decisions for all clergymen of the Russian Orthodox Church, it is impossible to serve the clergy of the Church of Constantinople, and for the laity to participate in the sacraments performed in its churches.” http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/5283708.html It says nothing about other autocephalous churches’ taking the same action. Moscow’s goal is to induce Constantinople to pull back from its provocative action, not turn this divide into a permanent, worldwide schism. The model here is the Bulgarian schism of 1972-1945, during which other churches, notably the Russian church, remained in communion with both sides. (Which doesn’t really make sense, but in Orthodoxy, thankfully, things don’t always make sense.) Moscow seeks to convene a meeting of the Orthodox primates to address the question of the Phanar’s encroachment in a conciliar manner, which would be impossible if they were all forced to excommunicate one or the other of the parties.

    Second, Mr. Shamir suggests that Moscow play the Roman Catholic card:

    ‘Regarding communion, the Russian church can retain communion with Phanar and Jerusalem and with other Orthodox churches, even with splinter churches on reciprocity basis. Moreover, the Russian Church may allow communion with Catholics. At present, Catholics allow Russians to receive communion, but the Russian Church do not allow their flock to accept Catholic communion and does not allow Catholics to receive communion in Russian churches. With all the differences between the churches, we the Christians can share communion, flesh and blood of our Saviour, and this all we need.’

    While there is some grounds for concern that Moscow may try to triangulate politically via Rome (to keep Pope Francis neutral, as he has been so far, at least formally), the notion of Moscow’s allowing intercommunion is a total non-starter. Permitting intercommunion with Roman Catholicism by members of any Orthodox autocephalous church would guarantee immediate, absolute, and probably irrevocable isolation by all the others. They would immediately become in Orthodox eyes Eastern-rite Catholics, like the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. The mere suggestion fundamentally misconstrues the importance of Eucharistic and dogmatic unity as the “glue” that holds Orthodoxy together (as opposed to the Roman Catholic Church’s point of unity in the papacy as a supreme administrative authority, in light of which their current approval of intercommunion is merely a disciplinary dispensation). It’s somewhat surprising that someone of Mr. Shamir’s erudition would suggest it, but this is not the first time he has done so.

    @Michael Kennny: “I’ll never understand why the American internet is getting so worked up about this.” Actually, there is far less attention to this than there should be. In Ukraine, like in many areas outside North America and Western Europe, matters of faith and identity are not scorned as mere “religion” – they’s fightin’ words! That’s why the blatant meddling of the US government in this matter is critical. As explained by Valeria Z. Nollan, professor emerita of Russian Studies at Rhodes College, “The real goal of the quest for autocephaly of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is a de facto coup: a political coup already took place in 2014, poisoning the relations between western Ukraine and Russia, and thus another type of coup – a religious one – similarly seeks to undermine the canonical relationship between the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and Moscow.” This is why American officials, including Secretary of State Pompeo, have weighed in personally in what must be understood as a political assault on the Russian Federation and a spiritual assault on Orthodox Christianity. The result will be violence, not just in east Ukraine but all over the country, as the proponents in Washington are well aware – with Putin already the designated villain. See more at https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/11/17/whose-money-stoked-religious-strife-ukraine-who-tried-steal-it.html (If Mr. Shamir has proof to back up his assertion that money was not involved, let’s see it. That doesn’t mean that non-monetary aspects aren’t primary – they are – but money always helps grease the wheels, as in the Maidan “revolution” itself in 2014.)

  92. wayfarer says:
    @Agent76

    Thanks, and I appreciate you taking your own time, to sow wholesome seeds of truth.

  93. Sorry. Re “The model here is the Bulgarian schism of 1972-1945, ”

    Should be 1872-1945

  94. Seraphim says:
    @Jim Jatras

    ‘Communion with Catholics’ is a categorical no-no, because Catholics are heretics on more than one account. First of all they are ‘unbaptized’ on account that they do not preserve the three immersions and they lack ‘’the sound confession of the Trinity’’ (by the introduction of the ‘filioque’). Moreover, they altered the mystery of the Eucharist by the use of unleavened bread (actually the Jewish maztot, expressly forbidden by the canons of the Church) and forbidding the wine for the laity. But as ‘unbaptized’ they are outside the Church and their mysteries are invalid.

  95. Some commenters on this site said or implied the Ukrainian “president” Poroshenko is an idiot. Let me tell you why I think that he is not. For those who don’t know, in 2019 there were supposed to be presidential elections in Ukraine. Poroshenko intended to run and win the most lucrative place near the trough again. But his luck was bad, or maybe Ukranians weren’t as dumb as he hoped. He escalated the civil war in Donbass under “patriotic” demagoguery, but his popularity dropped to ~7%. He squeezed visa-free travel out of the EU, but his popularity did not budge. He almost got an “autocephalous” Ukrainian Church, but his popularity stubbornly hovered around those accursed 7%. The election fraud necessary to make more than 50% out if these 7% is unrealistic. What’s more, if he just pushed himself to the second round, he’d lose, anyway: most people would vote for the Devil himself rather than for Poroshenko.

    It became crystal clear that the only way for him to win the election was to cancel it. But you need a pretext to do that. He created that pretext today.

    Three Ukrainian military ships, two armed cutters and a tugboat, deliberately sailed into Russian territorial waters. Naturally, Russian coast guard stopped them, forcibly boarded them, and arrested the crews and the ships. Poroshenko immediately suggested the introduction of the martial law. Naturally, no elections can be held under martial low. Mission accomplished.

    In fact, Poroshenko killed several birds with this one stone. Later there were supposed to be elections to Rada (Ukrainian parliament), which his party was expected to lose, as well. These elections will be cancelled, too. The sponsors of his regime in Washington and Brussels started showing signs that they would prefer to replace him with a less odious figure. Trump in Paris studiously failed to notice him, even though Poroshenko kept staring at Trump, like the obedient dog he is. Now those sponsors would feel obliged to pretend that he was in the right and make anti-Russian noises. Of course, they would never go beyond noises: in their view, it’s OK for Ukrainians to die, they don’t give a hoot about Ukrainians, but it’s not OK for the real people to suffer for Ukrainian cause. Still, they would have to back him personally, which is all he needs.

    Bottom line is, all this talk about independent church is yesterday’s news. Poroshenko made a decisive move that would allow him to remain in power indefinitely, and the popularity be damned. Isn’t that clever? The only people that would lose are Ukrainians, but they have been losing ever since 2014, so they should have gotten used to it by now.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @jilles dykstra
  96. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    He escalated the civil war in Donbass under “patriotic” demagoguery, but his popularity dropped to ~7%. He squeezed visa-free travel out of the EU, but his popularity did not budge. He almost got an “autocephalous” Ukrainian Church, but his popularity stubbornly hovered around those accursed 7%.

    His recent poll results range from 9% to 15% and have been increasing with time, though he is well behind Tymoshenko. There are 11 people running and splitting the votes so 9% to 15% is not a bad result in the first round. This puts him in 2nd or 3rd place, depending on the poll. You are exaggerating his unpopularity.

    The election fraud necessary to make more than 50% out if these 7% is unrealistic.

    You know he doesn’t need 50% in the first round, he only needs second place.

    What’s more, if he just pushed himself to the second round, he’d lose, anyway:

    You are correct here. He most likely loses to Tymoshenko in the second round, by a margin that is too great to cheat.

    Martial law is declared for 60 days. The election is more than 60 days away. So no cancellation..yet.

    The many poll results are put here:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2019

  97. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Jim Jatras

    Concerning the Poroshenko-Bartholomew arrangement, I agree with the payola suggestion, given the nationalist influence and corrupt kleptocracy associated with the Kiev regime.

    His apparent Western leanings aside, it stands to reason that Bartholomew knew beforehand that the move he was to take against the UOC-MP would be unpopular with most of the national Orthodox churches.

  98. Excal says:
    @AnonFromTN

    You are (inadvertently or deliberately) mixing Christianity represented by Christ’s teachings with established Christian Churches (there are many of them, large and small). The Churches are worldly organizations very much interested in money (more often then not interested in nothing else). No matter what they claim, they have very little in common with Jesus.

    You raise a very important point: the teachings of Jesus are subject to interpretation, and many have interpreted them in various ways.

    Unless I mistake your meaning, it would appear that you reject the interpretations offered by any organisation calling itself a Christian Church. I do not know what interpretation you do accept; is it one of your own devising? Is it on this basis that you state, categorically, that none of the Christian churches have captured more than a hint of the teachings of Jesus? Can it really be that we have had to wait two thousand years for someone to finally get it right?

    I may as well mention that I do not accept that view — I am Catholic and so I accept that institution’s interpretation of the teachings of Jesus. The current stewards of the establishment do seem a bit preoccupied with money (and, oddly enough, Communism), but the faith which they are supposed to be preserving takes a much more circumspect view of it, as did Jesus Himself.

    Now, if you read the New Testament, you can easily spot two lines. First, Christ did not want to antagonize worldly authorities (hence tax payment and “give unto Caesar what’s Caesar’s”), as his teachings are more about God and Heaven than about Earth.

    It is certainly true that Jesus’ teachings concerned chiefly spiritual things. However, Jesus did not hesitate to antagonise worldly authorities when the situation called for it — his constant and vocal baiting of the Temple authorities being but one example. His attitude toward them is easily explained by the fact that He was God, and above them — not in a merely earthly way, but in a divine way. Everything was subject to Him, and He never had to exercise direct force.

    Second, inasmuch as the actions of his commune were not supposed to concern the worldly authorities, he and his disciples practiced communism: neither he nor Apostles had private property, only communal property; recall how he converted Matthew, who used to be a tax collector, but having heard Christ threw the money into the dust, etc.

    While it is not expressly recorded that Jesus renounced private property Himself, it is also not recorded that all of the Apostles renounced their own property. In several cases, they left their occupations to follow Jesus, but this was necessary for them at that time; and Paul continued in his trade during his own ministry.

    Even if the Apostles did renounce private property for themselves, it is nowhere recorded that the Apostles expected all future Christians to live exactly as they had done when they were travelling with Jesus. On the contrary, where they later taught about this, they tended to advise Christians to go on living their lives as before, provided they were not immoral lives. Nowhere did they teach that private property or money were evil and must be renounced.

    Certainly Jesus Himself was not wealthy, and said that He had “no place to lay His head”. But this would make sense if he was divine and the whole Earth was subject to him. He would have no need for property — all of Creation was his. Money was also subject to him: when the temple tax was demanded of him, he got it from the mouth of a fish!

    I know that those who steal and cheat all week long, then go to church on Sundays and want to call themselves Christians, would disagree. If you are a least part Christian, you should know that their behavior is going to be taken into account at the Last Judgment.

    All too true. In fact, I have a very intimate acquaintance who sins all week long and still goes to church, and yet he dares call himself a Christian. He is me, and I hope he doesn’t get any worse before he gets better, because I am only too aware that things will be very, very uncomfortable for him at the Judgment, and that he will have to rely on the mercy of the Court.

    You’ve heard the old joke, of course: a preacher asked a man why he never went to church. “Because,” said the man indignantly, “your church is full of sinners and hypocrites!” “Not at all”, replied the preacher, “we’ve room for at least one more ..”

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  99. Apostate says:

    Bartholomew lost the little legitimacy and credibility he had left and exposed himself as a willing and subservient tool of the “Judeo-Masonic” West.

  100. @Excal

    I am not claiming that I know the true meaning of all Christ’s teaching. That would be presumptuous and arrogant. What I know is that a true believer does not need any intermediaries (priests, who are fallible humans, like the rest of us) to communicate with his God. All-powerful and all-seeing God won’t need a person to observe any rituals, either, just to be a good person. Churches need rituals, though, to justify their existence and to collect money from the gullible.

    As far as the issue of money is concerned, Jesus put it in no uncertain terms: “it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God” (Matthew 19:24). This is consistent with the episode with the money changers in the Temple: “My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves” (Matthew 21:13).

  101. @AnonFromTN

    ” Naturally, no elections can be held under martial low. Mission accomplished. ”
    In clashes like this I always try to keep an open mind, Dutch media immediately wrote that Putin is provoking NATO.
    A connection with two armed Russian jets flying low in the Baltic over a Belgian commercial vessel.
    Provoking, he might, though why, not clear.
    But I did not realise the election issue, though, why under martial law there cannot be elections, I do not understand.
    But the whole declaring of martial law of course is just a gesture.
    A few ships have been seized by Russia, what does martial law change in the situation ?
    I can invite anyone to read the detailed international rules for traffic in the Sea of Azov, any ship not complying simply is dangerous there.
    Is this ‘incident’ just for trying to show that not Russia directs traffic there ?
    If so, childish, and dangerous, imagine two countries fighting about who controls the air traffic of a busy international airport.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AnonFromTN
  102. An article like this, I suppose, was bound to end in an anti-Phanariot (anti-Greek) diatribe. It sports the old and tired justifications for making the Church of Jerusalem into an Arab nationalist church.

    I wonder why, though, the leadership of the Fransiscan Custodia Terrae Sanctae is overwhelmingly non-Arab and mostly Italian, despite there being no shortage of Arab Catholics in Lebanon to recruit from.

    Surely, though, Arab stolidity (and perhaps ineptitude judging from the states Arabs have actually created and manage such as the Palestinian Authority…) cannot have anything to do with either example…

    • Replies: @israel shamir
  103. @jilles dykstra

    Naturally, the election issue is the key. Poroshenko didn’t even have enough cunning to postpone the decision about the martial law for a day or two. Or maybe he didn’t think it necessary, considering that his curators know full well what kind of scum he is: that’s why they chose him in the first place.

    The only alternative explanation would be that he sincerely believed that Ukrainian Navy can win. However, you’d have to be a clinical idiot to believe that. There are only six functional ships in the Ukrainian Navy (all cutters; two of these were arrested during this provocation): their flagship frigate “Sagaydachny” is in repairs, so is corvette “Vinnitsa”, landing ship “Oliferenko” and cutter “Priluki” are out of order and not even in repairs. So, Russian coast guard can take on the whole Ukrainian Navy and win hands down. I think that sheer stealing prowess of Poroshenko, who is the only Ukrainian oligarch whose net worth increased after Maidan, shows that he is not a clinical idiot.

    By Ukrainian rules elections can be postponed in case of martial law in the country. Some say that martial law can only be introduced for 60 days, while a lot more time is left before presidential elections. Let’s not forget that another American-installed son-of-a-bitch (Roosevelt’s words) Somosa extended martial law in poor unfortunate Nicaragua for many years, and not a single “democratic” country ever murmured. So, Poroshenko has role models to measure up to.

    In summary, Poroshenko achieved his ends, while putting his curators and even internal Ukrainian competitors like Timoshenko in a position where they can’t go against him without ruining their fragile false narrative. Maybe what he did is not smart in the long run, but it’s cunning and gives him what he needs in the short run.

  104. @jilles dykstra

    An update. Apparently, Washington politburo actually decided to replace Poroshenko with someone more palatable and told him so. Now he proposed to introduce martial law only for 30 days and issue a decree regarding the date of presidential elections in 2019. Well, he tried. Anyway, he was getting ready for that: he is selling his assets in Ukraine preparing to run away. I wonder what country would be ready to accept him when the time comes.

    Reminds me of a Ukrainian joke.
    Poroshenko is drinking next to his portrait and says:
    - It might so happen that I will be removed.
    The portrait answers:
    - I will be removed. Whereas you will be hanged.

  105. Old Jew says:
    @AP

    Sorry for my ignorance!

    But is not the Western Ukraine, Greek-Catholic since 1598?

    • Replies: @AP
  106. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    One will have a hard time to find a Gospel passage where Matthew ‘threw the money into the dust’. What they say is that ‘Levi left everything and followed him’. Most likely he put the money into the common bag that the Apostles were carrying with them, the money they were buying bread with (“When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat? 6 And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do. 7 Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little”). The bag from which Judas was stealing:

    “Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. 4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him, 5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag (glossokomon), and bare what was put therein. 7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. 8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always”.

    One will notice that Jesus said that “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God”, after the rich young man refused to heed His injunction to ‘go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions”. Sell his properties and give alms, not relinquish his properties to the poor. No, Jesus did not preach communism.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  107. AP says:
    @Old Jew

    Sorry for my ignorance!

    No reason to apologize, it’s an obscure and complicated issue.

    But is not the Western Ukraine, Greek-Catholic since 1598?

    The Union of Brest happened in 1598. However, the region of Galicia was Greek Catholic only since 1677 – ironically it was the last part of Ukraine to join Rome, because it had a large native class of petty nobles who successfully resisted the Union for a few generations.

    Most of the rest of Ukraine ceased being Greek Catholic after the Russians took it. Galicia, in contrast, became part of Austria, so the last part of Ukraine to become Greek Catholic ironically became the bastion of Greek Catholicism. The Greek Catholic Church, also ironically, changed from a pro-Polish entity under Poland to an anti-Polish pro-Russian one and then into an anti-Polish and anti-Russian one under Austria.

    Western Ukraine is not only Galicia. Western Ukraine consists of the regions of Galicia (Greek Catholic), Volhynia (Orthodox), Bukovyna (Orthodox) and Transcarpathia (about half Greek Catholic and half Orthodox). In Galicia itself about 25% of the people are Orthodox. The Soviets banned the Greek Catholic Church and when the Soviets left most Galicians returned to Greek Catholicism but a minority stayed Orthodox (but mostly with one of the nationalistic Orthodox Churches).

    Here are Galicia and Volhynia; Transcarpathia is southwest of Galicia:

    • Replies: @Old Jew
  108. @Seraphim

    I was not saying that Jesus preached communism, I was saying that he practiced it. That’s the key difference between him and modern-day priests, who preach one thing and practice something very different (hence the joke: do what the priest says, not what the priest does).

  109. Seraphim says:

    But He was not proposing communism as the societal model to be imposed on the world either, and that the corrupt priests did not apply.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  110. @Seraphim

    Yes, the essence of Christ’s teaching and actions (at least in my view) is that he did not propose to impose anything forcefully. From this perspective those who push communism on you (for your own good, as they say) and those who push “democracy” on you by bombing and shooting (again, for your own good, as they say) are equally anti-Christ.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  111. Svigor says:
    @redmudhooch

    “Sympathy,” my ass! It’s a wonderful idea! An annotated, counter-semitic Bible! Been waiting for this; put me down for two.

  112. Svigor says:
    @Anonymous

    Why do I have to keep blocking this piece of shit?

  113. Svigor says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Lol, I kinda like seeing his rants. Skip by most of them, but it’s funny to laugh at the king of the flatheads.

    Still get a lil smile over how triggered he and his fellow flatheads get over Musk winning the 2nd Space Race.

    The best part is that Musk never would have started SpaceX if some stupid piece of shit flathead Russian douchebag engineering bigwig had just sold him a rocket, instead of spitting on him.*

    *imagine how douchey you have to be to have one of the bigwigs of your space program spitting on people.

    Epic flathead fail, lol.

    In similar vein, I used to be sympathetic to Russians. Until I met enough Rusnats online. Explicitly white nationalist Russians are fine in my book, but the rest can go fuck themselves.

  114. @Denis

    It depends what one understands by materialism. You probably mean consumerism.

  115. Haavara says:

    What happened between 1917 and 1945 in the Ukraine?

  116. Anon[245] • Disclaimer says:

    The orthodox church, like the catholic church, has been split and re-united in many ways. Who cares? (Except some idiots in Russia, who built their propaganda on “orthodoxy values”, a mental chewing gum comparable to “communist values” or “freedom and democracy”; that is, crap that comes and goes out of fashion.)

    I wish there was an empire that would campaign on material wealth. I had enough of this happiness and immaterial values nonsense.

  117. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    The essence of the Christ’s teachings and actions is summarized in that sentence: ” Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the good news of the kingdom of God*, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the good news”. What He asks for is repentance, the change of mind.

    “Go ye into all the world, and announce the Good News to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover” (Mark 16:15).

    *the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost”. “My Kingdom is not of this world”. All discussions about the supposed Christ’s communism miss the point. Communism is all about eating and drinking.

    • Agree: AP
  118. “Communism is all about eating and drinking.”
    It is you who missed the point completely. Communism is about human development first and foremost.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  119. Seraphim says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    What is ‘human development’? More eating and drinking? Have I missed something? Oh, yes, sex.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  120. Che Guava says:
    @jilles dykstra

    I see, understand and know of your points, they are good (not unknown to me) but the degree of theft and destruction was far beyond any bounds of reason.

    The reason both Fenimore Cooper and Jane Austen situate minor landed gentry in former abbeys is that the was the fate of all such places at first was very sad. They were stolen.

    I do know a little about the Dutch connection with, at least Cromwell.

    Holland was the conduit for Jewish funds to flow to Cromwell and his New Model Army, for the Dutch, aim was to destabilize a rival power, for the Jewish financiers, a way to overturn their prior and very sensible exclusion from England much earlier, and in the end, at great and ever increasing cost to the people of Britannia since, at least, the 18th century.

    You must have read of St. Thomas More and his life and faith?

    Also read, I would guess, his very interesting and influential work, Utopia?

    That among other points raised and easy to raise, many I am sure you know, that demonstrate that the various ‘reformations’ in England, then the quite different ones in Wales and then Scotland, were not at all the simple matter of overthrowing greedy papists.

    I am quite sure that many or most of the monks and nuns driven out of their homes were pure in their lives of dedication. They were driven out simply for theft of their dwellings by the state. Under the most vicious wave under Cromwell, it was also to steal any precious things as part-repayment to his jewish creditors.

    I suppose, for the Nederlansche, the ‘Reformation’ just became a rallying cry against Spain and a weapon for undermining Britain at one point.

    Not that I am at all a fan of Francis now. The worst Pope for at least a century, possibly several.

    We are now entering the season of Advent, so I just ask that, when you hear the hideous ‘Christmas songs’ written by jewish people to denigrate Christmas, promote shopping, and gain endless royalties, as they constantly extend the rights periods, you remember the finer carols, trad. Christmas songs, and. trad art related to Advent.

    Even if you do not believe, it is culturally important.

    I have a cheap print of Fra. Angelico on the Annunciation up.

    It is a very beautiful and strange painting.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  121. @Seraphim

    As a matter of fact, Soviet system was not designed to maximize eating and drinking, let alone sex. It had a very thorny relationship with the latter aspect of human life and demonstrated ludicrous hypocrisy, like most Christian churches. Consumerism was not encouraged, so the system lost on blue jeans and consumer items. A lot of people in Russia today came to understand how cheap and misguided their aspirations were. Too late now: life is irreversible.

    I think the commenter primarily meant education. Higher education was free, so that your lack of money did not prevent your kids from getting it. The admission was decided by the results of the entrance exams. There were four exams, with math and language exams being common, whereas the other two depended on your future specialization. The higher class of the University, the more stringent those exams were. For example, when I was taking exams at Moscow State for the Biological Faculty (this in Russian meant the subdivision of the University, not the faculty working there), there were more than 13 applicants per open place. Our exams included math, Russian (you had to write an assay on the suggested topic within 4 hours in class; both the contents and the grammar contributed to the mark you got), chemistry, and biology. If you got an unsatisfactory mark in one, you weren’t allowed to continue. In my year, more than two thirds of the applicants were dismissed after the math exam. All exams were pretty tough and the number of points you had to get to be admitted was fairly high. In some colleges there were 2-3 applicants per place, so the exams were a lot let stringent.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  122. Delmas says:

    Let’s not forget the Pan-Orthodox Synod of 1872 in Constantinople and its major decision against
    phyletism or ecclesiastical racism. And Patriarch Bartholomew certainly cannot ignore this relatively recent and major event in Eastern Orthodoxy, which could explain why he appears to be dragging his feet on an official and unambiguous declaration in favour of the Ukrainian church.

  123. @Che Guava

    Sorry, Dutch jewish Cromwell connection, unknown to me.
    Thomas More, again sorry, know the name, that’s all.
    Anglican church, see it as some kind of Brexit, fed up with continental interference, and, of course, the rich prize of the catholic possessions was an important factor.
    But in this respect the British ruler behaved exactly as
    Jean Deviosse, ‘Charles Martel’, 1978 2006 Paris, he needed money for his cavalry.
    Around 1800 the French republic also knew how to find money.
    Some monasteries were just given back a few decades ago.
    The Reformation, and our rebellion against catholic Philips II, there was genuine hatred against Spain and the catholic church.
    This hatred had to do with taxes, but surely also with freedom of thought and expression.
    Catholics were not allowed to read the bible, as an example.
    Undermining Britain, that Dutch politicians succeeded in maintaining the Republic, a delicate balancing act, playing off European powers against each other.
    Anglican Britain feared both France and Spain, at the same time Britain was a commercial competitor.
    I indeed am not a believer, but we do have a christmas tree each year.
    For me the new year really begins around Januari 5 or so, the tree out of the house, and one can see that the daylight period is longer.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  124. Old Jew says:
    @AP

    Dear AP,

    I grew up in Romania, Southern Bukowina. In my shteytl, the Romanians are Orthodox, the German and Polish are Catholic, the Ruthenians (Ukrainians) are Greek-Catholic. Perhaps some Ruthenians worship in the Orthodox churches. What could make me think that the Ruthenians in Northern Bukowina turned all Orthodox? What is nowadays the University of Czernivtsy was built as the residence of the ArchBishop (Mitropolitul in Romanian) of Bukowina (and Dalmatia). I do not think, that these metropolitans had any allegiance to the Patriarch of Moscow. [ I guess that from 1918 to 1940 they came under the Patriarchs of Romania (Bukarest)] I do not know whether in the Austrian lands the patriarchs of Constantinople had any say.
    Some villages (and villagers) that still spoke Romanian in 1940, consider themselves Ukrainians nowadays (not Ruthenians).
    It may make the case of an Orthodox Bukowina more plausible.

    sf

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @AP
  125. Seraphim says:
    @Old Jew

    The Metropolia of Cernauți was definitely integrated in the Romanian Orthodox Church from 1918 until 1944 (actually the ‘Metropolia Bucovinei si Hotinului’ was created in 1925). It never had any allegiance to the Moscow Patriarchate until 1945. Bukovina, despite Ukrainian wet dreams never belonged to any ‘Ruthenian’ state. The Patriarchs of Constantinople had never any say in Austrian lands and ceased to have any say in Romania since the recognition of the autocephaly of the Romanian Orthodox Church in 1885.
    As it is, the Romanian Orthodox Church is the second largest Orthodox Church in the world.

    • Replies: @AP
  126. AP says:
    @Old Jew

    Bukovyna (Chernivstsi oblast) is currently 86% Orthodox and 2% Greek Catholic:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Ukraine#Religions_by_region

    (also I underestimated Orthodox in Galicia – it’s around 30%-35%).

    I suspect after the Soviets ended Greek Catholicism in Bukovyna it never came back, unlike in Galicia.

    • Replies: @Old Jew
  127. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    Bukovina, despite Ukrainian wet dreams never belonged to any ‘Ruthenian’ state

    The northern part had belonged to the Galician Kingdom:

    Chernivtsi/Cernăuți clearly has a Slavic root.

    The Ruthenian settlements were largely destroyed during Mongol invasions and the region populated mostly by Romanians for hundreds of years. But it was sparsely settled and under Austria Ruthenians moved in and eventually outnumbered the Romanians.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  128. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    Actually the ‘greatness’ of Halych is the Ukrainian wet dream. It was tributary to the Mongols to whom it submitted under the “King of Russia” Danylo – so much for the ‘treason’ of Alexandr Nevsky), until its annexation by the Poles.
    Your map is a fabrication.

    • Replies: @AP
  129. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Ah, yes there was no ‘education’ in Tsarist Russia.
    Besides, compulsory education and stringent entry exams to higher education hardly square with ‘free education’ for all and sundry.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  130. @Seraphim

    Only elementary and middle school (8 grades total) were compulsory. Those who aimed for college had to go to high school (used to be 2 years, grades 9 and 10 in the USSR). There was no compulsory higher education. You could try to get in (via entry exams), but you didn’t have to. There were about as few really good places as in the US, with the majority of colleges being mediocre or worse, again, like in the US. The main difference was, you didn’t have to pay for college, and if you went to a college in another city, you were provided with a dorm bed with weekly change of linen at a symbolic price (I paid 2 rubles per month out of a stipend of 40 rubles; minimum wage at the time was 60 rubles per month). If your grades were good, you also received a stipend: 40 rubles per month in most places, a bit more in a few. That was enough for food, but not anything else.

  131. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    It was tributary to the Mongols to whom it submitted under the “King of Russia” Danylo

    Rus is not Russia. Halych was able to resist more than did the other Rus states.

    so much for the ‘treason’ of Alexandr Nevsky

    Moscow was also a tributary..until it wasn’t.

    Your map is a fabrication.

    There are many others. All fabrications? Explain how Chernivtsi had a Slavic name if it was not originally a Slavic settlement.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Seraphim
    , @Seraphim
  132. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    More detailed information regarding the southern Rus expansion towards the Danubian estuary can be found here: http://izbornyk.org.ua/hrushrus/iur20801.htm written by the old master himself, Michailo Hrushevky. When you consider all of the towns and areas settle by Ruthenians in this drive towards the south, it makes for a dramatic story. Most of the area, however, was sparsely settled with competing groups vying for influence: Greeks, Bulgarians, Ruthenians, Polovtsians, etc; Enjoy:

    http://izbornyk.org.ua/hrushrus/iur20801.htm

  133. @Jean-Marie L

    Orthodox Churches don’t allow priests to marry; but they open the priesthood to married men – you are right, my remark was sloppy.

  134. @Felix Keverich

    Many countries want to buy NK missiles and nuclear technology. The Arab states do buy it, and it is an important source of foreign currency for NK. They would like to sell a lot of other things but they are prohibited to do it by the US, and other states try to accept the US verdict, unless it is about weapons. The same with the USSR – there were American-established limitations that forbade Russia to export and to be paid in dollars.

  135. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    The first documentary evidence of Cernăuți is from 1408.
    Names derived from the verb ‘a cerni’-to blacken, to paint in black, are words belonging to the Romanian language. So, we have names of rivers: Cerna, localities: Cerneţi, Cernavoda, Cernatu, personal names: Cernat, Cernea, Cernăianu, Cernătescu. Slavic origin or not, they are more frequent in the South of Romania, so there would be of South Slavic origin, Bulgarian or Serbian. So, the ‘ruthenian’ origin of Cernăuţi is doubtful.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  136. @Jim Jatras

    Jim, thank you for your learned remarks. Indeed your reference to Bulgarian schism is true and correct. However, I observed last week in Jerusalem that Russian priests avoid taking communion in the services by Jerusalem priests for (justifiable) fear that people excommunicated by Moscow (but not by Jerusalem) are present at the service. A visiting Russian bishop avoided a service in the Holy Sepulchre altogether and celebrated mass in the (Russian) Trinity Cathedral. So this secondary ban is working, in reality.
    Second, I have no proof or certainty that Bartholomew was not paid by President Poroshenko. Perhaps he was. My point is, CP would do it for free, too, for he is gaining a lot, much more than Poroshenko.
    As for Catholic intercommunion, it was the view of Vladimir Soloviev, one of the greatest Russian religious thinkers. He did receive communion from the Catholics saying that the Russian church never broke communion with Rome (while the Constantinople did). In my personal view, the difference between East and West is mainly territorial; it is fine for a pilgrim in Rome to receive Eucharist from a local priest, and for a pilgrim in Jerusalem to receive it from a local priest. I would extend it to the Lutheran churches as well, but they became too different now, and they do not consider Eucharist as sacrament. If they would, I’d approve of it. Unity of Christendom is more important than filioque. But this is my personal view and I understand it is far from being universally, or commonly accepted. However, many Russian Christians told me they do receive Eucharist in Western churches while staying there.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  137. @Thrasymedes

    I presume you consider calls for Greek independence in the beginning of 19th century being “old and tired”, too? Still they eventually brought Greece to independence. Perhaps it would be more efficient for Greece to be ruled by Danes whose state is surely more successful, but the Greeks dispensed with the Danish king, for some reason. The Palestinian National Authority has very little authority in its land, as little as Palestinian Christians in their own church, so it can’t be the measure of its success or failure. In my view, Greeks should de-colonise Jerusalem church, while retaining their important and valuable presence.

  138. Israel Shamir knows what he is talking about. As usually, this article is well informed, enlightening and thought provoking. More than that: it’s forward-looking and suggests a strategy for Israel and Jews of the world. After all, many dissident Soviet Jews converted to Christianity after the bitter experience of totalitarian Communist rule. Shamir suggests that now some Israeli Jews are fed up with Totalitarian Zionism and are looking for a New Light:
    <<There is a million of immigrants from Russia in Israel. Some of them were Christians, some want to enter the church, being disappointed by brutal and hostile Judaism. They had some romantic image of the Jewish faith, being brought up in atheist USSR, but the reality was not even similar. Not only them; Israelis of every origin are unhappy with Judaism that exists now in Israel. They are ready for Christ. A new church of the Holy Land established by Russians can bring Israelis, Jews and non-Jews, native Palestinians and immigrants to Christ.>>

    http://www.unz.com/ishamir/phanar-phantom/

    • Replies: @Old Jew
    , @Old Jew
  139. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    The title conferred by the Pope was: “Rex Rusiae, Rex Galiciae et Lodomeriae, Terrae Russiae Dominus et Heres”.
    What Russia?

    • Replies: @AP
  140. Mikhail says: • Website

    Forwarded to my attention:

    https://the-wheel-journal.squarespace.com/blog/2018/11/20/cyril-hovorun-ukraine-the-ecumenical-patriarchate-and-post-truth

    Fascinating! Post-Soviet Ukraine has issued Bandera stamps, as post-Soviet Russia formally honors Victory Day without glorying Stalin and Putin involved in the opening of a museum honoring Stalin’s victims. Apparently the below author feels fine with instances like a painted mural in a UOC-KP church with the Nazi like Azov unit emblem and a two headed eagle being slain by a depicted righteous group. Likewise with the mural showing the living Filaret as a great figure in the OC. Even the Atlantic Council, RFE/RL and WaPo ran pieces acknowledging that Kiev regime controlled Ukraine has a problem with nationalist minded violence that has some degree of links to those in government.

    Crimea reunified with Russia following a coup against Ukraine’s democratically elected president and a series of anti-Russian actions (can go by them point by point) by the regime taking Yanukovych’s place. When Yanukovych (who I’m no fan of) was forced out, his popularity (as I recall) was around 25%. Currently, Poroshenko’s is at under 10% with the lead figure Tymoshenko at around 25%. Yeah Ukraine is quite healthy now when compared to Russia. This explains why considerably more people have left Ukraine for Russia than vice versa.

    In 2014, Crimea left a growing affliction to reunify with its preference. Reminded of a joke (of sorts) where a Ukrainian nationalist is asked why people like him fight in Donbass against the rebels there? His answer is because the Russians are there. When asked about why he and his kind don’t fight in Crimea, he answers by saying, because in Crimea the Russians really are there.

    Unlike the UOC-KP, the UOC-MP hasn’t tried to be political on matters like the war in Donbass. Bartholomew has acted like a centralizing Vatican pope to the disapproval of most national OC churches. If the UOC-MP is so bad, then it’d simply wither away without the kind of coercion it has been faced with.

    The UOC-MP is very loosely affiliated with the MP as is true of the ROCOR and other MP affiliated churches outside Russia. Like it or not, a noticeable number in Kiev regime controlled Ukraine aren’t so thrilled with Filaret’s flip flop and the anti-Russian spin very much dominating those seeking one UOC that’s completely separate from the MP.

  141. Seraphim says:
    @israel shamir

    Vladimir Soloviov’s act of defiance in receiving communion from the Catholics placed him automatically outside the Orthodox Church, no matter that his ‘view’ (false) was that the Russian Church never broke communion with Rome. Russian Church never viewed Catholics other than heretics.

  142. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    Well, the place names in the south of Romania that incorporate the slavic verb ‘doesn’t at all negate that in the east slavic vocabulary ‘cern’ also means to blacken and was used to describe the first military outpost of the Galician Princedom:

    A fortified settlement located on the left shore of the Prut dates back to the time of the Principality of Halych and is thought to have been built by Grand Prince Yaroslav Osmomysl. Legendary accounts refer to this fortress-city as Chern, or Black city; it is said to owe its name to the black color of the city walls, built from dark oak layered with local black-colored soil. This early stronghold was destroyed during the Mongol invasion of Europe by Boroldai in 1259.

    https://www.triposo.com/loc/Chernivtsi/history/background

    So, according to your views, a ‘south slavic’ origin of ‘Cernauti’ makes more sense than the natural progression of Ruthenian settlement to the south from Galicia, even though Ruthenian settlements from this early period are known to have existed all the way to the Danubian estuary? Even though the root word of the verb ‘chern’ was used in the East Slavic language of the Ruthenians? You hesitate to complete the logial conclusion that the word ‘chern’ was loaned to the Romanian language from both the South & East Slavic languages.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  143. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    The title conferred by the Pope was: “Rex Rusiae, Rex Galiciae et Lodomeriae, Terrae Russiae Dominus et Heres”.
    What Russia?

    It is anachronistic to describe this as Russian in the sense of the modern Russian nation or state. As you know this referred to Rus and not to what is now Russia, which is the descendant of the Suzdal principality.

    It is a bit like translating old references to Rome as “Romanian.”

    One of my 17th century relatives held the title Palatinus Russiae. It would be ridiculous to translate this as Russian.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  144. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    The first documentary evidence of Cernăuți is from 1408

    That is fairly late and there is evidence that the region was previously settled and that the Galician principality had controlled it.

    So, we have names of rivers: Cerna, localities: Cerneţi, Cernavoda, Cernatu, personal names: Cernat, Cernea, Cernăianu, Cernătescu. Slavic origin or not, they are more frequent in the South of Romania, so there would be of South Slavic origin, Bulgarian or Serbian. So, the ‘ruthenian’ origin of Cernăuţi is doubtful.

    This is a good point and may indeed be correct. OTOH, Cernăuți’s, location in the far north and evidence that the region had been part of Galicia (the Mongols destroyed a Galician fortress there) suggests an originally East Slavic rather than South Slavic origin for this particular Cern.

  145. @Israel Shamir

    @Seraphim is correct. Soloviev’s view was, to put it charitably, ideosyncratic, colored by his civilizational envy of the west. Without repeating what I wrote, for Orthodoxy as its name describes – true glory to God, right doctrine – intercommunion can come after, not before, dogmatic issues are resolved. Otherwise, whatever the individual’s intentions, he is simply excommunicating himself.

    I agree that we need Christian unity – socially, politically, civilizationally, even militarily – in the face of the rising forces of godlessness. https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/12/21/oic-muslim-world-voice-christian-countries-should-have-one-too.html Muslims have the OIC, why don’t Christian nations have something similar? (Short answer is that even countries with Christian majorities don’t have Christian governments.) There is much we can do short of a common chalice.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  146. Che Guava says:
    @jilles dykstra

    Indeed, the winter solstice is only just over three weeks away.

    However, the Dutch role in channeling Jewish money to Cromwell, under condition of Cromwell allowing a wave of Jewish migration from continental Europe. is well documented.

    As for Holland ever having the greatest navy in the world, when was that?

    • Replies: @Old Jew
  147. Old Jew says:
    @Vladislav Krasnov

    Dear Mr. Che Guava,

    You wrote:
    “…However, the Dutch role in channeling Jewish money to Cromwell, under condition of Cromwell allowing a wave of Jewish migration from continental Europe. is well documented….”

    I asked Uncle Google. No answer.

    Is there any accessible documentation from some uncontroversial sources?

    Could you point me to them.?
    Thank in advance.
    sf

  148. Old Jew says:
    @AP

    To Mr. AP and Mr. Seraphim,

    Gentlemen,

    Your comments raised a fresh question in my old head.

    The Soviet Union and later in 1948 Romania forced the conversion of Greek-catholic churches (and their believers) to Orthodoxy. Presumably to remove the influence of Papacy on a Communist regime..

    But the Ruthenian greek -catholic in my little town was not shut down. Only the Romanian speaking greek-catholic Churches were shut down (and their arch-bishop died in a communist prison).

    I know for sure that in 1942 in Czernowitz (Cernauti, Chernivtsy), under Romanian rule there was at least one Greek-Catholic priest, Whether he had a parish, or catered only to the Transylvanian Greek-Catholic soldiers, I don’t know.

    My question is.
    Were there any Romanian speaking Greek Catholic churches under Soviet rule in former Northern Maramuresh (Marmorosch) or Zakarpatye, that the authorities left alone ? (similarly to leaving alone the Greek-Catholics in my Southern-Bukowina by the Romanian authorities)?

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Seraphim
  149. Old Jew says:
    @Vladislav Krasnov

    To my understanding, some Israeli Jews are fed up with the control of the Rabbinical Courts over marriage, birth, divorce, burials, etc. They may turn to the American Jewish religions: Conservative Judaism or Reform Judaism.

    Not Christianity.

    Russians immigrants in mixed marriages (ethnic Jew plus ethnic Russian) have a problem in Israel. “Totalitarian” Judaism.

    Their spiritual/religious needs may be moew satisfied by a Christian Church, speaking in Russians.

    But then Chabad ( seen it myself, has Siddurim with Russian translations) and this may appeal more to Soviet couples where both husband and wife had “еврей” written in their internal passport

    Zionism is not a religion, it is a political doctrine.

    Is it all encompassing as Communism or National-Socialism? NO!

    Thus your concept “Totalitarian Zionism” may be an oxymoron.

    • Replies: @Vladislav Krasnov
  150. Old Jew says:
    @Che Guava

    Dear Mr. Che Guava,

    You wrote:
    “…However, the Dutch role in channeling Jewish money to Cromwell, under condition of Cromwell allowing a wave of Jewish migration from continental Europe. is well documented….”

    I asked Uncle Google. No answer.

    Is there any accessible documentation from some uncontroversial sources?

    Could you point me to them.?
    Thank in advance.
    sf

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @Che Guava
  151. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Interestingly, the Primary Chronicle gives a different order of the ‘natural progression’ of ‘ruthenian’ settlements. And that is from South to North.
    “Long time ago the Slavs settled on the Danube, where is now the country of the Hungarians and Bulgarians. From there the Slavs spread over the world and took names from the countries where they settled. So, some settled on the shores of Morava and they were called Moravians, other Czechs… And when the Volochs attacked the Slavs on the Danube and settled among them and oppressed them, those Slavs left and settled on the Vistula and they were called Lech. Of these Lechs some were called Poliani, others Liutici, Masovians, Pomorians. Also they settled on the Dnieper and were called Poliani, others Drevliani, because they were living in the middle of the forests. The Slovens who settled around the Ilmen Lake kept their name and founded a city called Novgorod…
    And then we know the story, those Slavs went to the Variag (‘the Rus’, “because those Variags were called Rus, the same as others are called Swedes, Norvegians, Anglii, Goths”) to ask them to put some order in their country. “And after those Variag was the Novgorod country called Russian and the Novgorodians are of Variag stock, but before they were Slovens…
    “And when Oleg settled in Kiev he said: ‘This city would be the mother of all Russian cities’. And the Variag and Slovens who were with him were called Russians”.
    So, we see that the Slavs come from the South (together with the Volochs, most likely) whereas the name Rus, descended from the North to South.!

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  152. AP says:
    @Old Jew

    They did not shut down but forcibly converted from Greek Catholicism to Orthodoxy. If the priest converted to Orthodoxy he was left alone usually, otherwise a new priest would come to that church.

    This happened during the second Soviet occupation, after World War II, not after 1939.

  153. Seraphim says:
    @Old Jew

    It depends how you ask the Uncle.
    Try this link: “Cromwell and the Jews”@http://www.olivercromwell.org/jews.htm
    Documentation from the horse’s mouth.

    • Replies: @Old Jew
  154. Seraphim says:
    @Old Jew

    No Romanian Greek-Catholic churches were ‘left alone’ anywhere on the Romanian territory after 1948. I don’t imagine that a Ruthenian Greek-Catholic church continued to function in Romania after 1948.

    • Replies: @Old Jew
  155. Old Jew says:
    @Seraphim

    Am citit textul. Nu scrie nici un cuvint ca “Ben Menashe” i-a dat bani, sau i-a promis bani. Scie ca acest rabin s-a dus cu o delegatie la Londra sa ceara admiterea evreilor (sa grabeasca sosirea lui Mesia ).

    Nu scrie nicaieri ca Olandejii au fost intermediari intre Evrei si Cromwell si ca evreii l-au mitui prin intermediul acestor Olandeji.

    It is still unclear how Mr. Che Guava came to his allegations.

    Scrie doar ca oamenii lui Cromwell vroiau sa importe evrei din Amsterdam cu scopul de a face Londra un centru important comercial, precum era pe atunci orasul Amsterdam.

    sf

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  156. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    Oh my, you are Polish. And an ‘aristocrat’ at that. That explains much.
    Would you consider that the name ‘Roman’ and the ‘Romanovyč dynasty’ have something to do with Rome?

    • Replies: @AP
  157. Seraphim says:
    @Old Jew

    Well, all discussions about the coming of the Messiah obscure the insistence on the commercial and financial advantages of readmitting the Jews to England.

    “Competition with the Dutch for trade and the increasingly protectionist commercial policy that led to the Navigation Act in October 1651 made Oliver Cromwell want to attract the rich Jews of Amsterdam to London so that they might transfer their important trade interests with the Spanish Main from the Netherlands to England”.

    It came to fruition later:
    “William III is reported to have been assisted in his ascent to the English throne by a loan of 2,000,000 guilders from Antonio Lopez Suasso (1614–1685) (of the well-known Lopes Suasso family), later made first Baron d’Avernas le Gras by Charles II of Spain. William did not interfere when in 1689 some of the chief Jewish merchants of London were forced to pay the duty levied on the goods of aliens, but he refused a petition from Jamaica to expel the Jews. William’s reign brought about a closer connection between the predominantly Sephardic communities of London and Amsterdam; this aided in the transfer of the European finance centre from the Dutch capital to the English capital.
    Early in the eighteenth century the Jewish community of London comprised representatives of the chief Jewish financiers in northern Europe; these included the Mendez da Costa, Abudiente, Salvador, Lopez, Fonseca, and Seixas families. The utility of these prominent Jewish merchants and financiers was widely recognised. Marlborough in particular made great use of the services of Sir Solomon de Medina, and indeed was publicly charged with taking an annual subvention from him. The early merchants of the resettlement are estimated to have brought with them a capital of £1,500,000 into the country; this amount is estimated to have increased to £5,000,000 by the middle of the 18th century”.

  158. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    The Primary Chronicle indicates that the Slavs first settled around the Danube, but it doesn’t indicate where they first came from. In any event, the paragraph that you’ve chosen to quote describes a time period of several centuries, at least from the 6th to the 9th. It clearly indicates that the Slavs first settled around the Danube, before the Vlachs, the proto-Romanians. And it also indicates that they weren’t good neighborly people:

    And when the Volochs attacked the Slavs on the Danube and settled among them and oppressed them, those Slavs left and settled on the Vistula

    There was a later waive of Slavic settlement in this area that emanated from the Ruthenian element in the Galician Princedom. starting at least by the 12th century:

    On the south Galician trading ships sailed from the mouth of Dniester to the Danube: to the city of Galac (Minor Galich / Halych) and other Danube cities. So, for example in 1159 duke Ivan Rostyslavovych (Berladnyk) having established himself here, captured sea vessels, which belonged to Yaroslav Osmomysl. Wide Galician colonization of banks along Dniester, Prut and Seret (with the way out to the mouth of Danube and to the Black Sea) had created here many Galician Rus’ cities: Drestvyn (Dorostol / todays Silistra in Bulgaria), Chern, Bilhorod (Belgorod / former Akerman), Romaniv Torg (near todays Bacau in Romania) and others. Bilhorod Fortress from 12 – 14 centuries. Bilhorod (today Bilhorod Dnistrovsky) at Dniester’s mouth, was a city colonized from Galicia by the river, being a key trading post of Galician principality on the Black Sea during 13th century. Fortress was set up by Genovians in 12 th century. Galac (Small Halych. Galati is today in Romania) was the place of collecting taxes for Galician duke from the local, Hungarian, Ruthenian and Czech goods brought to the lowlands of Danube.

    http://www.personal.ceu.hu/students/97/Roman_Zakharii/gal.htm

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  159. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    The Primary Chronicle actually indicates where they came from in the preceding paragraph:

    “After the collapse of the [Babel] Tower and the mixing of languages, the sons of Sem spread in regions of the East, the sons of Ham in the regions of the South and the sons of Japhet in the regions of the North. Among the seventy two peoples was the people of the Slavs; from the seed of Japhet were also the Norici, who are Slavs. [Noricum was a Celtic kingdom in the region including Austria and Slovenia, which became the Roman Province Noricum]“.

    Drestvyn is clearly a corruption of Durostorum, a Thracian and then Roman town, Dorostolon in Greek, Drastar in Bulgarian, Dârstor in Romanian. It was not founded by any ‘Halychians’, to be sure.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  160. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    Yes, I’ll have to also question the energetic projections of this amateur historian’s thought process as regards the “creation” of this ‘Rus’ city. ‘Dorostolon’ also known as Sylvestra changed hands frequently, and in 969 was taken in possession by Grand Prince Sviatoslav who held it for two years.

    The inference of the Slavs coming originally from the Middle East somewhere (aren’t all God’s creatures the descendants of Adam and from his abode in the Garden of Eden, in today’s Iraq somewhere?) isn’t commonly accepted by today’s scholars:

    The latest attempt of locating the place of Slavic origin using genetics, after studying paternal lineages of all existing modern Slavic populations, placed the earliest known homeland of Slavs within the area of the middle Dnieper basin in nowadays Ukraine.[22]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Slavs

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  161. Che Guava says:

    Thank you very much Seraphim.

    I am irritated by posters who question common knowledge (in this, case, on Reformation, British/NW Europe, and Jewish history), which they likely know to be true in the first place and go ‘citation please’.

    It may also be that such people are playing the Wikipaedia MMORPG in between the rare posts here.

    I do not always have time to respond.

    Again, much appreciated your posts on it.

  162. Che Guava says:
    @Old Jew

    You now have ample information on it. I had read much of what Seraphim is citing and quoting, and doubt that you were entirely unaware of the pattern (after all, it was Cromwell who fully reversed King John’s righteous expulsion of them, so, since many of your people specialise in inventing tales of victimisation, I would guess that you were simply being disingenuous in pretending not to know of it).

    • Replies: @Old Jew
  163. Old Jew says:
    @Che Guava

    Dear Mr. Che Guava,

    You wrote:
    “…However, the Dutch role in channeling Jewish money to Cromwell, under condition of Cromwell allowing a wave of Jewish migration from continental Europe. is well documented….”

    Seraphim wrote:

    “Competition with the Dutch for trade and the increasingly protectionist commercial policy that led to the Navigation Act in October 1651 made Oliver Cromwell want to attract the rich Jews of Amsterdam to London so that they might transfer their important trade interests with the Spanish Main from the Netherlands to England”.

    So what is true?

    The Dutch bribed Cromwell to admit Jews
    or
    Cromwell wanted Jews, for London to compete with Amsterdam.

    about editing Wikipedia? I have not tried it yet.

    Cheers and stay well,
    sf

  164. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Durostorum/Dorostolon/Darstor is nowadays the city of Silistra, not Sylvestra (if you can’t get the correct name of a present and well known town, what to say about the names and locations of ancient cities?). Sviatoslav was called by the Byzantines to assist them in their campaign against Boris of Bulgaria and then refused to hand back to the Byzantines the occupied territories. He had great ambitions (to conquer Constantinople) but eventually was repelled back to Kiev and the Byzantines returned in firm control of the Lower Danube, until they lost it to the Vlaho-Bulgarian Tsardom at the turn of the XIIth century. It was the time when King Andrew II of Hungary imposed his rule over Galitia-Volhynia (wherefrom the title of Rex Galitiae et Lodomeriae that Hungarian Kings retained and was the ground for the Austrian occupation after the partition of Poland) and territories east of the Carpathians.

    Anyhow, the fact that the ‘amateur historian’ (apparently his source is Karamzin, who quotes a list of ‘Russian towns’ in the Voskressenski Chronicle) uncritically ascribes the creation of Durostorum to the Halychians, cast a greater shadow on his other assertions (based on romantic forged ‘documents’ like the ‘Diploma of Ivan Berladnyk’ or the ‘Lay of Igor’s Campaign’). The list quotes also Vidin as a ‘Russian town’ – Vidin being, of course, the ancient Dunonia/Bononia, a Celtic-Roman town. The list quotes Trnovo in Bulgaria, but here even Karamzin baulks, judiciously remarking that the chronicler anachronistically links them to the fleeting presence of Sviatoslav). He doubts also that ‘Romanov torg’ – which is the Moldovan town of Roman – very ‘Russian’ name – had anything to do with ‘Russians’, being founded by the first prince of Moldova, Dragosh). Actually the list quotes many towns in Moldova and Valachia, most of them with no ‘Russian’ names at all (Vicina, Chilia, Neamt).

    • Replies: @Old Jew
    , @Mr. Hack
  165. Seraphim says:
    @Jim Jatras

    Much ink has been spilled to sink under a flood of ecumenistic verbiage the straight fact of Solovyov’s apostasy and of his unremitting hostility towards the Orthodox Church (which explains his popularity in the ‘West’). To say nothing of his masonic-kabbalistic ‘religious philosophy’, the ‘Sophiology’, duly condemned by the Church (his admirers dubbed him ‘The Russian Origen of the Nineteenth Century’).

    To set the record straight peruse the following:

    “Vladimir Solov’ev and the 19th-Century Pioneers of Catholic-Orthodox Reunion”, by Jeremy [email protected]://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0012580616684413

    “In fact, in 1896, Solov’ev’ received communion from the Byzantine-rite Catholic priest Fr. Nikolai Tolstoy. Was this as d’Herbigny suggests the culminating action of a journey into the Catholic Church? d’Herbigny cites an article written by the priest himself for Univers, 9 September 1910. Tolstoi writes that he who had preached union with Rome among his fellow-countrymen now preached it also by his example, and made his complete submission to the Roman Church is the presence of several witnesses, in the Chapel of Our Lady of Lourdes at Moscow on February 18, 1896, being the second Sunday in Lent.
    More recently, James Likoudis has provided further details:
    A facsimile of the original testimony of witnesses was published in the Polish magazine KITEZH in December 1927. It was signed by Fr. Nicholas Tolstoy, the Russian Catholic priest who received Solov’ev’s Tridentine Profession of Faith, Princess Olga Vasilievna Dolgorukova, and Dmitri Sergeyevich Nevsky, and read as follows:
    After his confession was heard by Fr. Tolstoy, Vladimir Sergeevich in our presence read the Profession of Faith of the Tridentine Council in the Church-Slavonic language and then during the liturgy which was performed by Fr. Tolstoy according the Greek, or Eastern rite, but with the mention of His Holiness, our Father, the Pope, he, Solov’ev, received the Blessed Sacrament. Besides ourselves, at the memorable event, there was present also a young Russian girl who was helping about the house in Fr. Tolstoy’s family; unfortunately, it has not been possible to ascertain her name”.

  166. Old Jew says:
    @Seraphim

    Wasn’t Roman founded by Roman Mushat from the Bogdan dinasty, hostile to the Dragosh dinasty?

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  167. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    Danilowicz were not a Polish family. They were Ruthenians, whose origin was probably in your country :-)

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  168. Seraphim says:
    @Old Jew

    I should have made more clear that I was quoting the rebuke of Karamzin, who made that assertion based on the authority of Cantemir. It was Cantemir in ‘Descriptio Moldaviae’ who said that Dragoș, the son of Bogdan, was the first to give the name of the river Moldova and that “he named the place [where the 'bour' was killed and where his beloved bitch Molda sunk], after the name of his kin (neam, seminție) Roman”.

  169. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    Possibly, even likely. Their coat of arms was:

    “Sas… a Central European coat of arms. It was borne since the medieval period by several Transylvanian-Saxon Hungarian, Ruthenian, Ukrainian, and Polish-Lithuanian noble families. The house was once a mighty princely and ducal house with origins in Saxony, Transylvania, Hungary and Ruthenia. ncient Polish-Lithuanian historians like Szymon Okolski say that the origin of these arms is derived from Saxony, where during the mid-12th century King Géza II of Hungary invited Germanic peoples of Saxony to settle in, establish trading centres and defend relatively sparsely populated Transylvania in the Kingdom of Hungary, upon which the Transylvanian Saxons were later given a privileged status in the “Diploma Andreanum” (Golden Charter of Transylvanian Saxons) issued by King Andrew II of Hungary.
    The origins of the dynastic House of Sas or Szász vary depending on the source. According to the chronicles of Albertus Strepa, the outstanding military leader Comes Huyd of Hungary (a Transylvanian-Saxon), entered Galicia in 1236 with his mighty army of allied mounted warrior knights to the service of Daniel of Galicia King of Ruthenia, and each was rewarded with lands in Red Ruthenia that Huyd and his allied noble knights settled, being referred to as the Sas/Szász (Saxon) due to their Transylvanian Saxon dialect and origin..
    Early origins also point to the Hungarian Transylvanian-Saxon Voivodes Dragoş I de Bedeu (Bedő) voivode of Máramaros Prince of Moldavia and his successor son Sas de Beltiug (Hungarian Szász de Béltek) Prince of Moldavia, who bore the blue (azure) escutcheon with the gold crescent, gold stars and gold arrow on their coat of arms…”
    @http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Sas_coat_of_arms#

    But Danilowicz is listed in ‘Korona Polska/Herbarz Polski (Crown of Poland/Polish Armorial) 1728–1846 of Kasper Niesiecki as a Polish family.

    • Replies: @AP
  170. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    His branch was Polonized like all magnates, the poorer branches of the family were not (ironically they were Russophiles in the 19th century).

    Huyd’s son Daniel was the likely originator of the Danilowicz de Sas family.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  171. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    I apologize for the misspelling of the name of Silistra, I’m interested in reading more information about the Ruthenian presence in Northern Romania or Moldavia (the borders have changed a lot since the Medieval period). Anything in English or Russian, Ukrainian too. So far, I haven’t been able to get my hands on a whole lot. The information that Karamzin presents should be gone over and I would appreciate it if you could be more specific as to which book to read (he wrote so much). Also, the ‘forged documents of ‘the Diploma of Berladnyk’ seems like a real juicy tale. He was of course the outcast Galician Ruthenian noble who cut a large swath through the lands under discussion. A ‘forgery’ (he must have been important that somebody would waste their time to forge something about him’)? So far, the only really good, solid information that I’ve been able to locate is Hrushevsky’s short treatment of the subject matter: http://izbornyk.org.ua/hrushrus/iur20801.htm

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  172. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    ‘Huyd’? Who was ‘Huyd’?…

    • Replies: @AP
  173. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Leader of the Transylvanian Saxon knights who were invited to Galicia by Danylo in order to fight the Mongols, in exchange for land grants. The various Galician noble families who use the Sas coat of arms are descended from these knights. There are a couple hundred of such families, such as Kulchytskis, who include Ivan Franko’s mother, and the guy who discovered coffee in Vienna. And Krushelnytskis, who produced the famous opera singer Solomiya who “saved” the opera Madame Butterfly:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomiya_Krushelnytska

    Huyd, their leader, was given a daughter of King Mindaugas in marriage; according to legend their son Daniel was the originator of the Danilowicz clan.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  174. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Excellent. Where else can one read more about this migration of Transylvanian knights into Galicia? Any more distinguished parts of your heredity that might deserve honorable mention? I’m very busy right now and will be for the next 8 months or so, as I’m studying to pass some insurance and security exams that will take me into a slightly different direction where I work. After that, I plan to seriously do some research regarding my own family’s evolutionary tree. On my mother’s side, I’m aware that the two branches of her family were descended from both Polish and Ukrainian schlachta families in Podilia (there are actually two villages in Podilia named after her parents’ surnames). On my father’s side, his surname can be traced back to a line of ottomans and osauls that originated in the Poltava region and served within the Hetmanate. My dearly departed father was not even aware of this! I already have one Ukrainian historian started on the project. I guess that there’s a good reason that I’m proud of and active in researching the issues related to my ancestral homeland (Hack’s Law). :-)

  175. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I had to use an excerpt from Karamzin’s ‘Histoire de l’Empire de Russie’, Tome IV, where in a note (85) sends to his first volume and to the beginning of the Vosskresenski ‘annalist’. Actually the source is the Chronicle.
    The forgery of the ‘Diploma’ of Ivanko Rostislavich was attributed to the great Romanian philologist Bogdan Petriceicu Hasdeu, who published it in 1860, along with another ‘document’ of an alleged Lithuanian Prince of Moldova Iurg Koriatovici in 1374, only to be quickly debunked by other Romanian historians (Ion Bogdan). In actual fact, the forger appears to have been Hasdeu’s father, Alexandru, a descendant of the Moldovan Voivode Stephan Petriceicu, forced into exile in Poland in 1673, where his descendants lived and married into Polish-Lithuanian nobility. But we may never know. It was a time when all sort of ‘documents’ were found miraculously in mysterious archives. History is full of forged documents, historic-literary hoaxes, archeological forgeries, art forgeries, the 18th century being one of the most ‘productive’. One should exercise the greatest caution when using suspect documents for territorial claims, property claims, or claims of illustrious ancestry, or political or spiritual primacy.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  176. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    I presume that we’re discussing what others call the ‘Berlad Charter’ that you identify as his ‘Diploma’?Why would the ‘great’ Romanian philologist Hasdeu print a ‘forgery’ linking Rostislavych (Berladnyk) with the Bulgarian town of Mesembria (Nesebar) in the first place? Regardless, there seems to be plenty of evidence that Berladnyk was active in the Danube region between 1144 and 1159. Heading a force of 6,000 in the Danubian region at that time was no small feat and points to his organizational skills.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  177. @Old Jew

    Thanks for paying attention. My saying “Totalitarian Zionism” may be an oxymoron, but then there is so much in Jewish history that looks like “oxymoron”. My impression is that Jews are one of the most divided people tending toward extremism: from extreme internationalism to extreme nationalism, bordering now on tribalism then racism. From extreme religiousness to extreme atheism and even fighting all gods, including G-d.
    They seem to be sincere, passionate and violent in opposite directions. Zionism certainly has a Totalitarian racist features as noted by former US president Jimmy Carter. I tend to like the Neturei Karta people and who seem to be the most genuine Jewish people waiting for the Messiah. But then many of my friends are secular Jews who are Americans or Russian first, and Jews second. I hear that the majority of American Jews do not support Zionist Israel. But US government does.

  178. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Yes, ‘Diploma’ means ‘Charter’ (gramota). It is the same document, of mysterious provenance, published in Romania by B.P. Hasdeu in 1860: ‘Diploma bârlădeană, text, traducere, comentariu’. His primary motivation was that he was engaged in a large program of publishing documents pertaining to Romanian history. He naively believed that it was an authentic document (which latter he renounced).
    At closer scrutiny the document revealed to be a forgery and Hasdeu was accused of being the perpetrator of a ‘patriotic forgery’ in a drive to document the existence of a state in Moldova before its official foundation in 1359. He was accused, on the other hand of being a Russian spy, who wanted to prop the Tsarist expansionism in the region (Basarabia, i.e. the Budjak, had just been detached from Russia by the Peace of Paris, and attached to the United Principalities of Valahia and Moldova, later Romania, until 1878 when it was retaken).
    The problem was that Hasdeu was a rather forceful anti-Tsarist and far from a Russian sympathiser. Therefore it is unlikely that he forged a document to demonstrate a Russian dominance of Moldova. The inauthenticity of the diploma was supported by the Russian scholar A. I. Sobolevski at the 8th Archeological Congress of Moscow in 1890, whereas, not unsurprisingly, its authenticity by the Ukrainian scholar I. A. Linnicenko. The document is dated 1134 and allegedly emitted by Ivan ‘of the See of Halych, knyaz of Berlad’. But it is known that Halych became the capital of Galitia-Volynia only in 1141 (even 1144). Ivan was a troublemaker, pretender to the throne of Halych and a fugitive (izgoi), which he remained for the rest of his life. His ‘organizational skills’ are not a proof for the overlordship of Halych over Moldova.
    The data contained in the Diploma are false (it’s the only document which ‘attests’ the existence of ‘Male Halych’).
    In any case it cannot be a justification of the belonging of Basarabia (i.e. the Budjak) to Ukraine, which cannot have any claim whatsoever over it.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  179. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    His ‘organizational skills’ are not a proof for the overlordship of Halych over Moldova.

    I never inferred any such thing, and am not really sure who has (Linnichenko?). Anyway, I’m grateful to you for this introduction for me into this murky, but highly interesting area. Any idea of who was the author of the Diploma or the real reasons behind its being written? Certainly not with the intent to inflame the imaginations of 21st century Ukrainian amateur historians. Or why indeed, as I originally posed to you, did Hasedu publish this document?

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  180. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    As I said, I am of the opinion that B.P. Hasdeu published the document believing in its authenticity as a purely scientific endeavor at the very beginning of his career, when he was working on what was to become ‘Arhiva historica a Romaniei’, the first collection of Slavonic-Romanian documents. As I said, later on, when he built a solid scientific reputation as a linguist and philologist, he admitted the inauthenticity, albeit in private.
    He ‘inherited’ it from his father Alexandru, who was also an erudite. Alexandru claimed that the document came into his possession through a pretended descendant of Dimitrie Cantemir (the Domn of Moldova who was forced to flee to Russia, after the defeat of the Russo-Moldovan alliance at Stanilesti in 1711. Peter the Great granted him large estates in the region of Poltava and he became one of the trusted counselors of the Emperor), a Captain Vincentius Rolski, who pretended to be a direct descendant from the son of Prince Dimitrie, Antioh Dimitrievich (himself a man of letters and diplomat, dubbed the ‘father of Russian poetry’), who in his turn had a son Constantin, who had a son Dimitrie (a colonel), who had a son Antioh, who was adopted by a Pole from Podolia, Joseph Rolski, and changed his name to Vincentiu. Now, there is no doubt whatsoever that Antioh, the son of Prince Dimitrie, had no children. The whole story smacks of imposture and it should have raised suspicions from the start. For sure, an investigation of the matter would be interesting in itself, as a detective story, if you like.
    And indeed the period of the 12-13th centuries in the region is a murky one. No less because there is an abundance of forged documents on whose ‘authority’ the history of the period was reconstructed (and on which the reputation of many historians rest – it is notoriously hard for many historians to admit their mistakes, the more that ‘national myths’ presented as history rest on them).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  181. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    The whole story smacks of imposture and it should have raised suspicions from the start.

    Actually, except for the possible discrepancy of the date of the document, as you present it here it makes more sense that the document was the genuine article. I’d like to read the document myself and see just how exactly the date figures into it, and whether its inclusion is indeed relevant to determining its unauthenticity. At least for a good while, it appears that Hasedu was convinced of its authenticity, unless of course he originally included it within his compendium of documents under false pretenses.

    I thank you again for providing me with this more expanded valuable information. Any citations regarding this subject matter (even in Romanian) whether in books, articles or within internet domains is of course very appreciated. One last thing tugs at my curiosity: Who was the author and why would this ‘forgery’ have been written? Although you’e done a great job in explaining Hasedu’s involvement in the whole matter, you’ve not posited any concrete explanations as to the most important part of the mystery?

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  182. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    As a matter of fact there are many more discrepancies in the Diploma. A most important criterion is the absence of the original. The fact that it was vehiculated by a supposed descendant of Dimitrie Cantemir would have suggested that he had it from an archive of Cantemir. But Cantemir, who wrote the first monograph of Moldova (Descriptio Moldaviae) with detailed data about the foundation of Moldova, has nothing to say about. He constantly links the origins of Moldovan princes with Byzance.

    For a more detailed discussion I recommend you a short article of a Romanian historian, P. P. Panaitescu, DIN NOU DESPRE DIPLOMA BÍRLÁDEANA DIN 1134.
    Fortunately you can find it in [email protected]://macedonia.kroraina.com/rs/rs13_9.pdf. It has a resume in Russian.
    Rejecting the authenticity was also the great historian Sergey Soloviov.
    Who was the falsifier is still an open question. Reasons for falsification are extremely varied.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  183. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I am happy to help.

    • Replies: @Old Jew
  184. Old Jew says:
    @Seraphim

    Serafime,

    Cum dracu stii asa de multe?

    (How do you know so much)

    Test:
    what is:

    Stii ce este “condac” ?
    “isos” ? Acatist ?

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  185. Seraphim says:
    @Old Jew

    Nu crezi că dintre toţi comentatorii de pe aici unii au mers la şcoală şi că au şi învăţat ceva acolo?
    Şi la biserică. E icos (οικος, йкосъ), nu ‘isos’.

  186. Old Jew says:

    True indeed. Many commenters on Steve Sailer’s blog are extremely sharp and educated. It provides me joy and learning.
    …..
    ……

    For relief or just to reassure myself that I still control the world, I read the Giraldi team. Whatever they lack in understanding they make up in fervor and devotion to their teacher and shining beacon: P. G..

    sf

  187. Old Jew says:
    @Seraphim

    Checked with people from my stall town. Indeed in 1948 -1950 the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic priest was called by the the authorities and signed papers that he and his flock will go over to Greek-Orthodoxy.

    then follow apocryphal stories that he did not remove the bust of the Pope, that he never prayed for the health of the Chief-of-State (Gheorghiu-Dej )etc..

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