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Fakirs playing their flutes to fearsome cobras, a native dentist with his nasty-looking tongs and a jar of extracted teeth, drummers in colourful national garb, stalls serving spicy food in bright tagines: the main square of Marrakech, the old capital of Maghreb (that is North Africa west of Egypt and North of Sahara, presently and mainly Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia), is exotic, vibrant and gaudy, justifying expectations of a new Paul Bowles. The plaza is surrounded by a web of narrow lanes, similar to the old city of Seville.

Indeed Maghreb and Spain are united by much of its culture. The Bahia Palace of Marrakech is a modest brother to the magnificent Alcázar of Seville and its minarets are modelled on La Giralda. The Moors, or Maghrebis created the great pearls of Spanish civilisation in Granada, Cordova and Seville, but they could not repeat this feat after the expulsion on their own soil.

Marrakech is a hub of old roads connecting through Sahara to Timbuktu and through Gibraltar Straits to Andalucía, to the Atlantic seaboard with its surfers and to the rest of North Africa via Fes and Tunis. The first road is the most romantic one. The best record of this trans-Saharan navigation is the glorious yet underappreciated film of recently demised Bernardo Bertolucci, The Sheltering Sky. If with years passing by, cinema will follow manuscript illumination and vanish from public conscience, this film will remain, with a very few others, as a memory of this once great art. These square mansions, called Kasbah, with their windowless walls and crenelated roofs, stand along the routes now frequented by lorries instead of camels. Sub-Saharan Africa is very far away – 52 days of camel ride separate it from Maghreb. The best thing in Sahara is the starry sky, unbelievable sky – you never saw anything similar, and this is a good reason to travel to Sahara.

The second road, to Gibraltar and beyond, is more important, for Maghreb is well-connected with Europe. The Mediterranean connects Maghreb to Europe, while Sahara separates it from the rest of Africa. Arnold Toynbee considered Maghreb an outlying part of Europe, like Balkans or Scandinavia. If Europe is the Roman Empire, Maghreb, or Africa and Mauretania, were the wealthiest Roman provinces of long standing, when Germany and Scandinavia were still terra incognita.

This proximity is counterbalanced by faith difference. The Moors accepted Christ among the first, and they gave to the Church its Fathers Tertullian and Augustine; but they switched to Islam long time ago, and became not only neighbours but competitors and adversaries to Europe.

They, the Moors, are the reason of this article. They, and the Europeans, invade and invite each other in turns, like waves that ingress and regress upon the shore. It’s not that one side was always prevailing. The Moors colonised Europe and Europeans colonised Maghreb. They also expelled their colonisers even centuries later. Nothing is final.

Maghrebis, or the Moors are not particularly meek. Not at all. Quite dynamic and vigorous folk with enough testosterone. Do not push Moors, or you’ll regret it. You may regret it anyway, as Desdemona did. The Moors are not black. They look like Southern Europeans, some are lighter and some are darker, like Greeks, Italians or Spaniards. A lot of them live now in Europe, chiefly in France and Netherlands, so many that one can speak of a new Moorish conquest.

Their mutual invasions began 2000 years ago. In the confrontation of Carthage, the main North African city, and Rome, the first European capital, the Romans won; they conquered and colonised the Moors and brought them into the Empire; they embraced Christ and entered the Latin Church. Together with Spain, the Maghreb was overrun by the Vandals, a North European folk but returned to (East) Roman rule, under Justinian.

The European dominance ended with arrival of the Arabs, who intermingled with the natives, brought them Islam, mobilised them and crossed into Europe. The Moors took over Spain (this is called La Conquista, the Conquest) and there peaked their civilisation. But nothing is forever.

Hundreds of years later the Spaniards defeated the Moors and pushed them back to North Africa. Even the Christian Moors were expelled, though a bit later. (This was called Reconquista, Taking back).

However, the idea of separation didn’t work out. The Moors didn’t take the defeat lying down. They began raiding Europe’s shores and attacking European shipping.

Now they were called ‘Barbary corsairs’, formidable adversaries of the Europeans. They raided Europe as far as Iceland, and depopulated villages and towns of Southern France and Spain. They mined Europe for slaves.

That was the big difference between Europe and the Muslim world: slavery. It was marginal in Europe (after the crash of Roman Empire) and popular in the Dar al-Islam. The Muslims used slaves, they needed slaves, and they apparently preferred European Christian slaves. While Spain was Muslim, the Vikings raided Eastern Europe, captured local folk and sold them to Jews, while the Jews traded this valuable commodity in Cordoba. Later, East Europeans, ancestors of modern Russians, were raided and captured by Crimean Tatars to be transported to Istanbul. But the demand was big, the profit huge, and the Moors began raiding West European shores and capture boats in the Mediterranean.

These corsairs were quite different from the Caribbean pirates. Jack the Sparrow people were Europeans, and they robbed the boats. They didn’t care for crews and passengers of the captured vessels: they could be thrown overboard or given a dinghy or landed on a shore; rarely kept for ransom. Barbary corsairs were going mainly for crews and passengers. They treated the Europeans like the Europeans treated Sub-Saharan Black Africans – captured, enslaved and sold on the market. Yes, Virginia, whites also were slaves. Every European could become a slave in Dar al-Islam, and millions of East and West Europeans, French, Spanish, British and Russians were sold and bought on Istanbul markets.

Europeans were forced to take over Maghreb, (likewise Russians were forced to conquer Crimea) to stop slavers’ raids. That was the beginning of European colonisation of Maghreb.

The Moors stopped to come to Europe, but then, the Europeans have moved to Maghreb. They had built towns and cities, established industries, and re-joined Maghreb to Europe. They settled in Maghreb, hopefully forever.

ORDER IT NOW

But it didn’t work: surprisingly (?), the Moors didn’t like it. They rose in rebellion, got independent, and expelled all the European colonists in their millions back to Europe. Half a million from Morocco, one and a half million from Algeria, two hundred thousand from a smaller Tunisia had to leave their homes and go to the country they probably never visited.

Did they parted their ways? Not really! In a short time, the Moors went to Europe by hundreds of thousands, and settled there. Now France and Netherlands have more Moors – between three and four million – than Spain had in the zenith of Moorish power.

It didn’t help the expelled Europeans. The houses of European colonists in Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia weren’t returned to their owners. They are still there, as a memorial for the days when Europeans lived in North Africa.

General de Gaulle granted Algeria independence, he said, to stop mass migration of Moors to France. It didn’t work: Algeria became independent, but migration didn’t stop.

I spoke to my Moroccan friend Hamid about moving to Europe. He doesn’t want to, though many of his friends, relatives and acquaintances did the move. He says it is more comfortable to live in his native Maghreb. In order to live in France on the same level, he’d have to work much more. Accommodation in France is quite expensive. At home, in Morocco, he lives well as proper middle class, and still works normally without overtime. He is wise – but many other Moors move to Europe.

Within the Old City of Marrakech, I found a synagogue. A sprawling complex with courtyard, it is located a few hundred yards from the royal palace – as Jewish centres usually are everywhere. Despite squeaks of ‘persecution’, my ancestors were highly privileged even in Morocco and Spain. They were instrumental in the Europe-Maghreb population flow for centuries.

Jews helped the Moors to conquer Spain in the first place, continuing the tradition of switching sides in the real time. (In Palestine Jews supported the Persian invasion, and afterwards, the Arab one.) Jews played an important role in Moorish Spain, and had to leave together with the Moors.

In Maghreb they switched back to the European side. A Jewish minister of justice in 19th century France, Adolphe Crémieux gave Algerian Jews (as opposed to other Algerians) French citizenship. It was a shrewd act: influential local Jews supported France against the natives.

In Tunisia, the Jews were extremely powerful for centuries. In 1819, the United States consul in Tunis, Mordecai Manuel Noah, wrote of them: “The Jews are the leading men; they are in Barbary the principal mechanics, they are at the head of the custom-house, they farm the revenues; they control the mint, they are the bey’s treasurers, secretaries, and interpreters. These people, then, whatever may be said of their oppression, possess a very controlling influence, and their opposition is to be dreaded.”

When the French came, these ‘leading men’ switched sides and supported the French colonial administration. Though even then they had no sympathy for the French settlers, and their expulsion had been explained as a perfectly justifiable act by Albert Memmi, the prominent Tunisian Jewish writer. For Memmi, they were greed-obsessed carpet-baggers: “You go to a colony because jobs are guaranteed, wages high, careers more rapid and business more profitable. The young graduate is offered a position, the public servant a higher rank, the businessman substantially lower taxes, the industrialist raw materials and labor at attractive prices. He is often heard dreaming aloud: a few more years and he will take leave of this profitable purgatory and will buy a house in his own country.” He didn’t notice that the same attitude could be ascribed to the Tunisian Jews and Muslims that moved to France. The Jews would go to Israel or to Quebec whenever the time is right; the Muslims may return “to their own country”, but it probably won’t happen.

The Jews of Europe are fond of immigration from Maghreb. At least they promote it. Fine, but why did the Europeans accept the Maghrebi immigrants? After being expelled from these countries, one could expect the Europeans to say “You wanted to get rid of us, now stay away and enjoy your freedom from Europeans”. But European countries were eager for immigrants, and it was not caused mainly by need for working hands, for some European countries managed fine without them.

After the long world war Europe had been occupied; the West by the US, the East by the USSR. Their policies were very different: the Western rulers had little trust in their nations, and they began to bring immigrants from North Africa and Turkey, in the same time preaching diversity.

The pro-Soviet leaders didn’t want any immigrants, and they carried out soft nationalist policies. Experience of East Germany, Czech Republic and Hungary proved the European countries do not need immigrants for their economy.

These countries entered homeostasis, a rather stable balance with little development, almost stagnation accompanied by steady improvement of workers’ life. Homeostasis is the best for ordinary European workers. This was achieved in socialist states, including soft-socialist Scandinavian ones.

The Europeans could live quiet peaceful life, slowly and gradually improving their lot and going down in numbers. There is nothing wrong with diminishing population: it could be fine for ordinary people. The world is not endless, the resources are limited, housing construction takes time. It could be good for Europe to slowly decrease its population to the level circa 1800. It would be a new Golden Age, many green lawns, green forests, modest but pleasant life for everybody.

But it would be bad for sales. Jewish love of immigration is connected to their preference of sales upon production: while production could be automated, robots introduced, productivity increased, the sales are done by humans. You need more people willing to buy, take credits and rent your housing, to work hard to advance, and to push others to take credits and compete. Without immigration, the Jews would lose their raison d’être.

ORDER IT NOW

Would there be immigration without Jews? Yes, for there are enough non-Jews who imitate Jews. Even if not all of them succeed, there are many of them and they are willing to go to considerable lengths. The way to stop immigration is to stop expansion and growth, to kill capitalism as we know it.

Production and market are perfectly possible in homeostasis; interest, shares, currency trading are not.

The GJ, the French Yellow Vests, proposed to make things last long. This is a good and radical step, instead of rubbishing the world with models that came two years ago and are already out-dated or broken. We had these things: I remember a fridge in good shape after 20 years of use, and a VW car running well after 30 years of service. If we want, we could make things that will serve practically forever, repairable and serviceable.

Japan is a good example of developments: our colleague Linh Dinh visited the land of Yamato and had been upset by what he saw, that is by aging population and loveless youth. I am also a regular visitor in Japan; yes, Japan was perhaps more fun many years ago, but it is doing all right. It does not grow much, the American and European traders do not become rich overnight speculating with Japanese goods. Shares do not rise, true. But for ordinary Japanese this is good. They could have even less progress and still be satisfied.

Japanese friends often told me (when I’d regret slow growth of Japanese economy): we do not want more. The years of rapid growth were the years of our misery. The years of stagnation are just fine for us. If the US were to forget about us completely instead of pushing to conform to their ideas of growth and diversity, we’d be even more happy.

Our world needs less and less working hands. What stops us from enjoying this situation? The European population does not grow, it gently decreases. Immigrants from North Africa and elsewhere do grow, but let them grow in their ancestral lands.

There is no reason to worry about the growing African population. This is after all, an African affair. The Sahara is too big to cross; the airlines can be stopped from carrying human traffic. Yes, many Africans would prefer to live in France or Holland, and surely some Africans will do it. But no massive population waves please, unless led by Theodoric or Genghis Khan.

In my childhood, there was a popular game called Musical Chairs. While music played, one could choose a chair and sit on it the moment music stops. It’s enough of this game. Let people sit where they sat. This temptation to grow endlessly may and should be defeated.

It is enough to defeat the greed, the spirit of getting more and more; and then we shall softly land on a green meadow.

Israel Shamir can be reached at [email protected]

This article was first published at The Unz Review.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Immigration, Muslims, North Africa 
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  1. The Moors, or Maghrebis created the great pearls of Spanish civilisation in Granada, Cordova and Seville, but they could not repeat this feat after the expulsion on their own soil

    Magic European dirt? Moorish architecture in Spain looks suspiciously similar to Italian Rennaisance architecture.

  2. Would there be immigration without Jews? Yes, for there are enough non-Jews who imitate Jews. Even if not all of them succeed, there are many of them and they are willing to go to considerable lengths. The way to stop immigration is to stop expansion and growth, to kill capitalism as we know it

    In chapter 7 of The Diversity Illusion, Ed West writes that ‘mono-ethnic’ Britain flourished without immigration:

    ‘Britain’s least stagnant period, the late 18th and 19th centuries, a period of unprecedented advancement in culture, politics and healthcare, coincided with almost no significant immigration, despite it also being an age of hugely increased levels of trade. Not only did the country advance in almost every field, it was also able to import new ideas—not to mention many foreign words into the English language—with almost negligible immigration…In the 17th century the mono-ethnic Netherlands and England surged ahead of other countries in political and scientific development, while the multi-racial super-states of eastern Europe were bogged down by reaction; the Ottoman Empire retreated into itself, turning away from printing, science and political reform, and in Austria-Hungary and Russia progress was held back by ethnic and religious rivalries and fears.’

    • Agree: Tom Welsh, RadicalCenter
  3. bjondo says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    could be right.
    think moorish architecture in Spain
    predates by several hundred years.

    5ds

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  4. bjondo says:

    for illegal aliens across the mediterranean, atlantic, hell.

    poem for a particular cult

    “those who pass between fleeting words”

    by mahmoud darwish

    [MORE]

    O those who pass between fleeting words
    carry your names, and be gone
    Rid our time of your hours, and be gone
    Steal what you will from the blueness of the sea
    And the sand of memory
    Take what pictures you will, so that you understand
    That which you never will:
    How a stone from our land builds the ceiling of our sky.

    From you steel and fire, from us our flesh
    From you yet another tank, from us stones
    From you teargas, from us rain…

    It is time for you to be gone
    Live wherever you like, but do not live among us
    It is time for you to be gone
    Die wherever you like, but do not die among us
    For we have work to do in our land.

    O those who pass between fleeting words

    It is time for you to be gone

    Live wherever you like, but do not live among us

    It is time for you to be gone

    Die wherever you like, but do not die among us

    For we have work to do in our land

    So leave our country
    Our land, our sea
    Our wheat, our salt, our wounds
    Everything, and leave
    The memories of memory
    those who pass between fleeting words!

    5ds

    • Replies: @israel shamir
  5. I remember a fridge in good shape after 20 years of use

    Our 34 years old Poljus fridge is at dacha now away from Moscow and is doing just fine! Touche! 😉

    Japanese friends often told me (when I’d regret slow growth of Japanese economy): we do not want more. The years of rapid growth were the years of our misery. The years of stagnation are just fine for us. If the US were to forget about us completely instead of pushing to conform to their ideas of growth and diversity, we’d be even more happy.

    Excellent observation–economy IS consumer patterns. I have a smart phone–some Samsung, have no idea what model–I would have carried my good ol’ Alactel flip phone much longer if not for stupid battery having limited life. After years of pressure from family–I surrendered, I even learned to send text-messages. I probably will stick with this 2 y.o. Samsung for another 5-6 years if it will not disintegrate on me earlier.

    • Replies: @Johnny Rico
    , @Tom Welsh
  6. With robots increasingly taking the monotonous jobs of the unskilled, surely we need to import millions of unskilled immigrants who do not speak our language, because… Well, you know, for diversity because it is enriching and a strength and… Wait, what was the question?

    Maybe illegals are willing to do jobs that robots are unwilling…

  7. The Muslims used slaves, they needed slaves, and they apparently preferred European Christian slaves

    From a 2004 review of Robert Davis’ book, Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800:

    ‘North African pirates abducted and enslaved more than 1 million Europeans between 1530 and 1780 in a series of raids which depopulated coastal towns from Sicily to Cornwall, according to new research. Thousands of white Christians were seized every year to work as galley slaves, labourers and concubines for Muslim overlords in what is today Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and Libya, it is claimed.’

  8. Bartolo says:

    Israel Shamir is a communist I like way more than most “capitalists”. His “vision” for humanity is more appealing than the infinite-everything we are supposed to work all our lives for. May his common sense enlighten lesser intellects on both sides of the political spectrum.

    I am also happy to see that someone realises how hypocritical it is to have expelled the French from North Africa (after 130 years in some cases) and then speak as though North African migrants to Europe totally deserve to stay there forever because of racism. Guess what, they don´t.

    The very same people who claim (rightly) that Europeans were invaders in Africa during colonial times react with foaming rage if you suggest that, well, the opposite situation is also an invasion.

    • Agree: Cyrano
    • Replies: @israel shamir
  9. anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says:

    The ethnic tensions brought on by non-whites in European nations is too great and will result in them being sent back whether Jews like it or not. Contrary to what we are told, entire nations can be and have been moved. After the end of WW1, hundreds of thousands of Greeks were expelled from Turkey and hundreds of thousands of Turks were expelled from Greece. All that is needed is the political will. Sweden could be almost 100 percent Swedish again within 6 months if Sweden got in a government that was truly nationalistic. It would cost a few billion but the money will be spent in welfare and child support payments foreigners anyway.

    • Replies: @jbwilson24
    , @RadicalCenter
  10. @Bartolo

    react with foaming rage

    Indeed I was quite hesitant to write about that. To say that the game of expulsions not necessarily ended is quite a taboo.

  11. @Andrei Martyanov

    “have no idea what model”

    You should if you want to be taken seeiously about technology.

    What are the relative energy efficiencies of those refridgerators?

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  12. @Johnny Rico

    You should if you want to be taken seeiously about technology

    Obviously you have issues with understanding irony.

    • Replies: @Johnny Rico
  13. republic says:

    Morocco is to Europe as Mexico is to the US. Like trump said Mexico is not sending its best people. Same as the Moroccans in Europe. Morocco is the country with the highest number of convicts in EU jails.

    The biggest group involved in pick pocketing in Germany are Moroccans.

    Forty per cent of Moroccan, Algerian and Tunisian migrants registered in Cologne have been arrested for crimes.

    In a 2010 report, researchers at Groningen University in the Netherlands found that 54 percent of Moroccan youth had been charged by the police with one or more criminal offenses by the time they were 23.

    They have little chance of being granted asylum in Germany, since Morocco is considered to be a safe country by the EU.

    Moroccans are very unpopular in The Netherlands but do to hate speech laws this can not be discussed.

    In 2014 Geert Wilders was charged with a hate crime for asking an innocuous question at a campaign rally regarding Moroccans in The Netherlands

    Morocco has the ability to control illegal migration to the EU, but for various political reasons chooses not to do so.

    • Replies: @bjondo
  14. bjondo says:
    @republic

    Morocco has the ability to control illegal migration to the EU, but for various political reasons chooses not to do so.

    my insider info,
    this reluctance to control migration
    is related to Innocent Geert
    and his many innocuous
    provocations
    and
    the dark plans of the EU Elite

    5ds

  15. @Andrei Martyanov

    Look into the technical specs on your phone. Processor, RAM, screen-size, benchmark score on processor. Consider getting another Android smartphone with similar specs for under $149 within 3 years. 5-6 years for a phone these days is silly.

    Look up BLU smartphones on Amazon.

    Samsung and Apple are grossly overpriced.

    • Replies: @Tom Welsh
  16. Asagirian says:

    One thing for sure, Zionist migrants wiped out Palestine. Good for Jews, bad for Palestinians. Blessings and curses of mass migration-invasion.

  17. buzzwar says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    Italian Renaissance architecture is the architecture of the period between the early 14th and early 16th centuries. Moorish architecture dates back to the 8th century until late 15th century. So if there is any suspicion it clearly lies on the side of the renaissance architecture.

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
    , @Avery
  18. @buzzwar

    They stole their architecture and never gave it back.

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  19. Avery says:
    @buzzwar

    { Moorish architecture dates back to the 8th century until late 15th century.}

    How exactly did nomads, which Moors assuredly were, create so-called “Moorish” architecture.
    The Moorish nomads stole it from civilizations they invaded and conquered and called it “Moorish”.
    The original nomad “architecture” is a tent.

  20. Gaddafi warned the world what would happen to Europe if he was killed. He was the plug on the illegal immigration. Gaddafi made the worst mistake he wanted to organize the oil producing nations of Africa and take them off the dollar and use a gold standard.

    He crossed the bankers and the flow of money into their Jewish hands and was murdered and his gold stolen. A lesson for the rest of the world on who controls what.

  21. Icy Blast says:
    @niteranger

    “Follow the money long enough and you’ll find somebody holding a hammer.” (Ron Paul)

  22. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    Everyone of those glorious buildings in Cordova Sevilla Granada and other Spanish cities were designed and built by European Christian slaves.
    So were many mosques and buildings in Muslim countries including Ishifan in Persia

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    , @bjondo
  23. Seraphim says:
    @Avery

    All architecture around the Mediterranean is of Roman origin.

  24. @Hannah Katz

    I think the goal is to allow the Robots to replace human superiority with robotic superiority. Robots have been here since 1700 they were the automatons of the big factories.. and systems within systems.. since introduction they have been getting faster, smaller, and more efficient, and now they have begun to get intelligent..

    Soon, thanks to AI, the robot will be better educated than any human could hope to be, and more intuitive than any human will ever be.. We have invented for ourselves, the humans, a 2nd place in the coming cultures. The robots will soon possess all of the cunning and craft of humanity, but will be possessive of yet another higher level of evolution. We humans have invented technology capable to evolve and promote itself to a position superior to humanity itself.

    The university professors, judges,and politicians will soon be, what we humans, would call, robots.

    Imagine saying Good morning Dr. Alloquobot.. as you work on your Phd in the laboratory of Dr.Alloquobot.
    We humans need more understanding of our DNA if we humans are to compete with the Robots.
    Its a race against time for humanity, while we humans fight and kill each other,instead of polling and networking our brain power, the Robots are gaining in position and passing through the human domain, enroute to a higher order life form.

    I remember in the early 1970s working with IBM 1401s and then IBM 360s and 1401s and Digital Equipment
    PDP-11s, and PDP-8s. My wife was a programmer and we designed a general ledger package that could run in focal on a 4k PDP8A .. it did payrolls, job costs, and general ledger stuff, The input was done, not by keyboards, but by keypunching by hand, the data into a 4 bit ASCIII paper tape punch, the holes in the take were read by the ASR33 Teletype into the machine., the data processed and output to a line printer.

    As we visited various controllers in large corporate accounting offices trying to convince them to buy our software and a machine (1401 or pdp8A) to run it on.. they would listen to the pitch, then say you mean to tell me your software and machine can replace that crew of 300 bookkeepers outside of office? Time after time, each said more or less the same thing, what that little 4k of memory, ASR teletype, and CPU running in focal could do, was beyond the mental capacity of most high level corporate executives.. Less than ten years later nearly every one of the offices had replaced much of their accounting staffs with computer staffs. The numbers of humans were dwindling, as the knowledge distributed, and soon every business big and small had a robot doing its accounting. My expertise at the time was production, connecting computers to run and make more efficient industrial and chemical processes. Devise means to measure a critical parameter, then Automate the measurement, collect and analyze data, make decisions, issue adjustments to the process, to keep the process running within specifications. Highly innovative skills were required, for what today one can buy on a $10 card that plugs into most motherboards

    I think the advent of forced immigration is the result of humans not getting along with each.. a few of us want to own everything, so wars are fought to kill off competition. The problem is, among those killed or forced to immigrate, and not be educated, may be the mind that can save humanity from the robots. we must educate everyone and let all minds connect to the network and contribute least the animal kingdom will become 2nd class.

    IS has written a piece that makes it clear.. we humans can no longer sit idly by while the robots displace our position at the top of level of intelligence on this earth.

  25. “he Jews of Europe are fond of immigration from Maghreb. At least they promote it. Fine, but why did the Europeans accept the Maghrebi immigrants?”

    Umm, you answered the question with your first sentence.

    ‘Europeans’ are not in control of Europe. They have not been for quite some time. Jews and various secret societies have been in power in Europe for centuries.

    Look at the biggest advocates of immigration and you’ll find they are 80% Jewish. Shatter in Ireland, David Schwartz and the Bonnier family in Sweden, etc etc. The Catholic Church is another malefactor, but it changed radically after the Jewish influenced Vatican II.

    As for the Moors, we should have wiped them all out. Same with the Turks. It would be a nice bit of payback for both European and Black slaves.

  26. @anonymous

    “Contrary to what we are told, entire nations can be and have been moved. After the end of WW1, hundreds of thousands of Greeks were expelled from Turkey and hundreds of thousands of Turks were expelled from Greece. All that is needed is the political will. ”

    True, population transfer agreements have been used before.

    Personally I would prefer civil war with all its rapine, brutality and horror. It’s no fun if we can’t impale Paki rape gangs as a hobby.

    • Replies: @israel shamir
    , @utu
  27. @Hippopotamusdrome

    Wrong, Hippopotamusdrome. So-called “islamic” architecture is entirely copied from Imperial Roman architecture, and considerably less impressive than its teacher. The Roman Empire had the Hagia Sophia centuries before the muzzie built the inferior Great Mosque of Cordoba(Cordoba itself an ancient Roman city). Renaissance architecture was not, and had no need, to copy the inferior “islamic” ripoff. Italian Renaissance architecture was an indigenous creation that combined Roman ideas with the extraordinary interior spacial volumes and revolutionary construction techniques created by the French Gothic, The Gothic an entirely North European creation far more advanced than anything the muzzie was or is capable of, and developed at a time when the muzzie still plodded along aping ancient Rome. There were four distinct Renaissance styles: Italian, French, Spanish, and Portuguese. And to top it off, Renaissance architecture was merely a prelude to the glory of Baroque architecture. There are numerous glories in Baroque, my personal favorite is Borromini’s S. Carlo alle Quattro Fontaine in Rome.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  28. Tom Welsh says:

    “There is nothing wrong with diminishing population: it could be fine for ordinary people. The world is not endless, the resources are limited, housing construction takes time. It could be good for Europe to slowly decrease its population to the level circa 1800. It would be a new Golden Age, many green lawns, green forests, modest but pleasant life for everybody”.

    Well said indeed! That is probably the best statement I have read this year, and perhaps for a lot longer.

    • Agree: annamaria
  29. Tom Welsh says:
    @Johnny Rico

    Johnny Rico, what do you propose doing about the ever-increasing piles of discarded old smartphones and tablets and laptops and desktops and servers… not to mention TVs and radios and stereos, etc. – all being replaced long before they stop working, just in the name of fashion?

    https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/8xynba/world-economic-forum-at-davos-electronics-are-the-fastest-growing-waste-stream-in-the-world

    Incidentally, I don’t think your views agree very well with your handle. Heinlein’s Johnny Rico is a thoughtful, sensible young man who would be well aware of the reasons for conserving resources.

    • Replies: @TKK
    , @Johnny Rico
  30. Tom Welsh says:
    @Avery

    Your argument is interesting, Avery. Since the ancestors of all human beings were either hunter-gatherers or nomads, you have demonstrated that human beings could never build anything permanent. So New York City, the Pyramids and the Great Wall of China must all be optical illusions.

    I fear you are a victim of Zeno’s Paradox.

  31. Tom Welsh says:
    @niteranger

    Yes, niteranger! And, seen sub specie aeternitatis – from an extremely zoomed-out view of history – it is a melancholy and compelling example of how the destructive, short-term, selfish forces of human nature seem always to overcome and annihilate the progressive, constructive forces.

    What the “West” did to Libya is at least as terrible as what the barbarians did when they trampled the Roman Empire. Or what the Mongols did to everyone they conquered.

    The common factor is obvious: pursuit of immediate gain, not caring about civilisation, human life, or the future.

  32. Tom Welsh says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Seriously, I remember that my parents used the same fridge, vacuum cleaner, stove, etc. from the 1930s right into the 1970s.

    New models may have been more efficient, although I rather doubt it. But any such gains must be weighed against the very definite waste of throwing away working equipment and having to dispose of it safely.

    • Replies: @follyofwar
    , @RobinG
  33. Tom Welsh says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    “Moorish architecture in Spain looks suspiciously similar to Italian Rennaisance architecture”.

    One of the great Moorish technological breakthroughs, which has not received nearly enough attention from scholars, was of course their invention of time travel.

    • LOL: Alfred
  34. Sean says:

    I am told a few years ago the police presence around Calais had to be seen to be believed. There are suddenly illegal immigrants coming across the English Channel in little boats, and that is the French thanking the UK for leaving the gang they seem to consider themselves the leader of (Brexit).

    The Europeans could live quiet peaceful life, slowly and gradually improving their lot and going down in numbers. There is nothing wrong with diminishing population: it could be fine for ordinary people.

    EU freedom of movement leading to intensified capitalism through mass immigration of Poles ect may have been the cause of Brexit I don’t think that immigration is the cause of keeping up with the Joneses, there is a convincing evolutionary rationale for why we strive for outstanding wealth and status inasmuch it confers an advantage in competing for the best mates and in simple survival in the bad times, when those without allies and resources perish.

    In Western countries it is open to anyone to live perfectly well without working or having a family. If they are willing to see their status decline relative to their peers (become a laughing stock) it is quite possible to live well while without much in the way of marriage, occupation, social circle or permanent home. Few do that though, and of those even fewer by choice.

    Dubious that Japan is downsizing in any meaningful sense, Eamonn Fingleton would say it is is growing in productive capacity relative to the West, and the US protects Japan which has a lot of sea around it anyway. China deliberately lowered its population, probabally for political stability, but competition there remains cruel–there is hardly a tree left. Countries are like individuals, they will not, can not, opt out of competing with peers to get bigger, stronger, more feared and and more popular. Nor can they brook insults.

    The West is declining in productive capacity, and to maintain the size of the economy it needs more people (Israel did not fear Egypt for any other reason than it had a lot of people) so it’s a deep instinctive desire for maintaining and increasing relative potential military might by any means necessary that is the cause of immigration. Hence the slogan ‘diversity is our strength‘.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  35. Heros says:

    “But European countries were eager for immigrants”

    This is pure, unadulterated talmudic narrative, contrived by jews and people of color who want to get a free ride on the back of white European culture.

    It is almost as inane as the old “not our values” or “not what we stand for“.

    Shamir unwittingly helps to accentuate the real issue for Europeans by so steadfastly trying to ignore it: Race. Shamir may not be pushing multiculturalism, but he is subtly pushing anti-white kind of racism. Take this:

    There is no reason to worry about the growing African population. This is after all, an African affair. The Sahara is too big to cross

    Some Europeans want to preserve that which makes Europe so great that Moslem and Africans across the planet are willing to risk their lives to get here. Once a white European becomes mixed blood, their branch of the European genetic tree is as good as lost forever. But even worse, these non-white people living in Europe have shown a immense propensity to impregnate and ditch. Aside from providing lots of fetuses for the jewish abortion rituals, this is bad because these mulatto bastards grow up without fathers, let alone white fathers. So the process continues until white Europe because degraded to the point that social capital and trust dissappear, and Europe is no longer able to sustain what it once built, let alone improve on it.

  36. Z-man says:

    The Moors are not black. They look like Southern Europeans, some are lighter and some are darker, like Greeks, Italians or Spaniards.

    Wrong, you can see a noticable difference between even people as close in proximity as Sicilians and Tunisians. There’s that wild Arab/Berber look to them that most Sicilians don’t have and they, the Tunisians along with many Lebanese & Algerians and some Syrians, are the most European of all the Ay-rabs.

  37. Heros says:
    @Avery

    I was at Alhambra last year, and it is over-rated. Nice gardens, nice tiles, but architecture? I have also been to the great mosque in Cordoba. Also way over rated, and it was originally a Visigoth church anyway. The Sophia in Istanbul was also a church before the moslems stole it.

    • Replies: @Wally
  38. wayfarer says:

    Why They Want to Replace You

    Left’s Beef with White People Explained

  39. bjondo says:

    from my experience,
    Muslims, Arabs aren’t concerned
    with who invented what.
    if it is good, use it and thank God.

    Only Yid and American propagandists
    concerned with being
    the inventors, creators of all things.

    in their propaganda, all others are thieves.

    5ds

  40. Asagirian says:

    Open Borders is No Borders.

  41. anon[776] • Disclaimer says:

    “…more than 1 million Europeans between 1530 and 1780 …”

    The date, 1530… it is not a coincidence that the onset of North African slavery of whites is about the same as the Protestant Reformation. Suddenly Protestants had license to prey upon Catholic shores for slaves, many ship captains were Dutch and English, the vast majority of slaves coming from Ireland, Italy, Spain, etc.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Anon
  42. @niteranger

    Indeed, from everything I’ve read about Gaddafi he was Libya’s George Washington, with the exception that he knew it was best to hold onto power rather than to relinquish it. American presidents should not be term-limited. In the unlikely event that we ever get a good one again, we should be allowed to keep him. And he should not be hindered at every turn by the likes of a soul dead Inspector Clouseau, unelected and accountable to no one.

    Where would Russia be if Mr. Putin, after saving his country from rapacious Western imperialists, had to relinquish power after a mere eight years? He was just getting started. Is not Russia better off for his long rule? Was not Libya better off with Gaddafi rather than a destabilizing democracy which the people were not ready for? Now, I hear, they have open air slave markets.

    When Secretary of State Clinton said “we came, we saw, he died,” followed by her demonic frightful cackle, I felt right away that the wrong person was spared.

  43. @Tom Welsh

    You touch on the problem, invented by American capitalists, of Planned Obsolescence, which helped the US economy to roar after WWII. At least it did for awhile.

    Cars were designed to last 3 years before starting to rust away. Madison Avenue convinced the masses that they must purchase the latest new improved gadget and throw away the old. Along with endless consumption came endless debt. Usury has won the day, and we know which class has benefitted the most.

    Japan, with its ability to make cars that lasted, took away a big chunk of the auto market. Hondas and Toyotas were far superior to Chevys and Fords. This has at least caused American auto companies to make better products, but they will probably never catch up. I’m not with Milton Friedman when it comes to the wonders of free trade. But if Mr. Trump had been potus at the time he would have put on tariffs, which would have been deadly for anyone wishing to purchase a reliable car.

  44. Wally says:
    @Heros

    Indeed, much is said by Muslims and the left about The Crusades in a way that denigrates Europeans, while conveniently forgetting that it’s the Muslim seizure of the Christian Holy Lands which brought about The Crusades.

    It’s incredible how stupid people can be, they have no idea how recent Islam really is.

  45. @bjondo

    What does 5ds mean?

    • Replies: @bjondo
  46. @anonymous

    I hope you’re right but that seems unrealistically optimistic. The median age in Sweden is a shocking 41, with actual Swedes even slightly older than that.

    How exactly will Swedes mostly aged 40-80 physically defeat and expel nonEuropeans/Muslims who are mostly aged 15-40?

    With each passing year there are more young Muslims and Africans in Sweden and fewer young Swedes. Time is getting short for your hopeful scenario, but I pray that Swedes wake up very soon.

  47. @Hippopotamusdrome

    You need to pick up a basic text on history of architecture and drop the pro-muzzie propaganda.

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
  48. Anon[424] • Disclaimer says:

    It seems that the ethnic moors in moslem Spain and Portugal , never were more than 15% of the population

    . Most of the population of the Iberian peninsula under moslem rule were ethnic hispanoromans . As the Reconquista advanced the ethnic moors left or were expelled .

    Some rich hispanoroman families , like the Casio ( roman name ) converted to islam , and islamised their name to beni Qasi , to keep their riches . Many men of the arabic elites had christian concubines .

    The reconquista was wery slow , one is tempted to think that the christian hispanoromans were not in a hurry to reunite with their european christian brothers , maybe thats why when Charlemagne sieged the strategic islamic northern spanish city of Zaragoza in the year 778 ( 64 years after the islamic conquest of Zaragoza ( Saragossa , Saraqusta ) , the local hispanoromans and moslem joined forces and defeated Charlesmagne who could not conquer the city , and afterwards crushed the rearguard of Charlesmagne`s armies in Roncesvalles ( Roncevaux ) in the Pyrinees when they were retreating to France . It seems that the francs were more sauvage and bigger thiefs than the moors ( ah! these europeans ….. )

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  49. So Afro-Semitic crowd had been trading in European slaves for a long time, which may explain their getting lighter in color gradually, so what else is new? Levant louts are the pox upon the earth… is thete a cure for the Middle East?

  50. @Anon

    Anon[424], you have been spending too much time circle jerking with Talblahblah.

    • Replies: @Anon
  51. bjondo says:
    @RadicalCenter

    5 dancing shlomos.
    My moniker before being banned.
    (For being illiterate, I think?)
    Can’t login using 5 d s. Forgot password.
    bjondo a keyboard mistake.

    • LOL: RadicalCenter
  52. @RadicalCenter

    I think you are correct, and fear your scenario applies to all majority white Western countries, especially the USA. Using your Swedish example, how many strong young Swedes with the will to fight, and not just talk, know what is happing to their people? Do they even have access to arms, or have the guns been stolen from them by their elected officials? Would they not be crushed by their far left governments if they dared to rise up? How many have fallen for the lies of feminism and the globo/homo agenda? Will change at the Ballot Box ever be enough to save them? I am just asking. I do not know.

  53. TKK says:
    @Tom Welsh

    I recently collected a little over one ton of metal and aluminum to prepare for a move. These were things in my garage and yard no longer needed.

    At a scrap yard, I was paid $5 and 41 cents.

    For 2500 lbs.

    Whose zooming who? Who did the scrap yard sell to- and what price do they get?

    We are hysterically ordered to recycle- it didn’t even pay for the gas.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  54. Now listen up, here. Ahl tell yew whut.

    These nat’rul conservatives of The Religion Of Peace are compassionate. Family Values does not drown or stop in the Med-it-tear-anian. When we welcome the other whose differnt ‘n us, we are inclusive. Which is the same as being diverse. When these nat’rul conservators take ownership of houses in our society we will have an ownership society and they’ll own it. Which is open and compassionate. Because its faith-based it must be good.

    Mah buddies Marvin Olasky and Karl Rove told me all that. ‘N ah believe it, so ahl keep sayin’ it.

  55. @Bombercommand

    thatsthejoke.jpg

    “They stole their architecture and never gave it back.”

    Explanation:
    Dark Ages Italians stole architecture from the Moors and took it away to Italy to make Renaissance buildings. But they never gave the secret of architecture back and that explains why the Moors couldn’t replicate their feats in Morroco when they were expelled from Spain and create a “Moroccoan Golden Age”.

    This in response to:
    “Moorish architecture dates back to the 8th century until late 15th century. So if there is any suspicion it clearly lies on the side of the renaissance architecture.”
    [i.e. Italians imported ideas invented by the Moors, after having forgotten all building skills from their Classical heydey]

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  56. @RadicalCenter

    And don’t forget that the immigrants in Europe are better armed (and not just with knives and machettes) than the locals, and more prepared to use violence at the slightest whim. Probably many of their mosques and madrassa are stockpiling firearms as they are in many Muslim coutries. In Muslim countries (e.g. Pakistan) raids by antiterrotist squads on mosques and madrassas have often revealed arsenals that supply terrorist groups. Considering the demographic decline in Europe, the worst possible policy has been to open the borders to mass immigration.

    • Replies: @pensword
  57. Anon[424] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bombercommand

    ????????

    Be careful with your bombs

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  58. Anon[147] • Disclaimer says:

    Jewish love of immigration is connected to their preference of sales upon production: while production could be automated, robots introduced, productivity increased, the sales are done by humans. You need more people willing to buy, take credits and rent your housing, to work hard to advance, and to push others to take credits and compete. Without immigration, the Jews would lose their raison d’être.

    Nailed it on the head. Excellent article.

    Howard Shultz famously told a group of Starbucks investors that the only way for Starbucks to grow is through mass immigration to the US: more cheap labor, more customers. WSJ reported today that the Sackler family who invented Oxycontin, the drug that started the opioid addiction crisis, made nearly $5B in the last 10 years. Jews are addicted to money and power, and they can never get enough of either. Greed, lust, and revenge are the 3 pillars of the Jewish psyche, it’s in their DNA, passed down through millennia, few could ever shed that part of their DNA no matter where they wash up.

    We need an alternative to the destructive economic model of eternal growth, profit is king, maximize shareholder value, fixation on quarterly profits, greed without end preached by our elite business schools. Many things contribute to the creation of the billionaire class/Davos men that now has outsized influence on world politics. At a minimum we need to do the following to stop this gravy train:

    First, abolish the Fed. The Fed’s setting of interest rates is what’s causing all the wealth of the country to concentrate in the hands of Wall Street and the billionaire class of capital owners. Let the market determine the interest rate. Low interest rates hurt savers and reward borrowers and spenders. Alan Greenspan, the first Jew to run the Fed since WWII, started this destructive economic cycle of perpetual low rates to reward his Jewish pals on Wall Street. The 2 Jews who came after, Bernanke and Yellen, kept the status quo. Jay Powell tried to change it, and was quickly cowed by Trump the honorary Jew’s ridiculous public attacks.

    Second, regulate the regulators. 90% of mergers and acquisitions should never have gone through. The reason they did is because we have a revolving door between the regulators and the industries they regulate. The FCC official who oversaw the Comcast/NBC merger became a VP at Comcast soon after she approved the merger. That’s corruption at the highest level. Monopolies are the reason why we have a billionaire class who can buy ever more influence, at the expense of everyone else. It’s time to put in a law that prohibits regulators from working in the private industry they regulate for at least 5 years after they leave office, like the lobbyist law that Trump put in.

    Third, challenge and end the insane law that extended first amendment rights to corporations. This perversion of the first amendment is the reason why we have the lobbying industry that’s making all the laws to further profit corporations at the expense of everyone else.

    • Agree: Bill Jones
  59. stevecel says:

    You brainlets are laughable. Having sought to conquer the world and failed, you think now to sit back and bask in the glories of senescence under the twilight of your civilization. Have you learned nothing from the lessons of the past? The cycle must be ended. The “Jews” are as tinder to powder, they drive the peoples of the world to burn bright and hot, scouring the earth anew. You will never know peace until the fight is over and no one is left, do you not understand?

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
  60. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sean

    The West is declining in productive capacity, and to maintain the size of the economy it needs more people (Israel did not fear Egypt for any other reason than it had a lot of people) so it’s a deep instinctive desire for maintaining and increasing relative potential military might by any means necessary that is the cause of immigration. Hence the slogan ‘diversity is our strength‘.

    The question is, why is the West doing this rather than following China or Japan’s example, or employing natural increase?

  61. @Anon

    Good point. The Taj Mahal, one of the “wonders of the world”, was built by a Muslim ruler working large numbers of people to death. The religion of peace.

  62. @Tom Welsh

    The PC in my office is 10 years old. Running Windows 7. The organization recently upgraded all our machines from 4GB RAM to 16 so they could handle the latest medical imaging software. I’m not sure they couldn’t handle it before.

    I’ve owned 4 smartphones since about 2010. Total cost maybe $400.The material they are made up of is probably less than that in a single laptop. I give my old phones to my parents.

    You’d be surprised how small my carbon footprint is. I’d guess I’m in the top 1%, maybe higher.

    I consume and buy relatively little useless plastic junk compared to most Americans.

    The “fashion” issue is largely a result of Apple marketing. I don’t use Apple products. Talk to them about a solution.

    I didn’t get the moniker from Heinlen’s novel.

    Being kinda judgy, aren’t you 🙂

    What the fuck is a “radio”?

  63. HiHo says:

    Can’t talk about Europe in general but Britain has been under the Jewish thumb ever since 1694. That year half of our merchant fleet sank in one storm. The Jews essentially set up what was to become the Bank of England to refinance the construction of a new fleet.
    After the Battle of Waterloo the Jews had cornered the stock market by passing out the lie that the French had won. Panic selling was taken advantage of by Rothschild.
    In 1825 the Crown ran out of gold and Rothschild started to issue gold currency in 1826 for the nation.
    In 1829, from the profits of this usuary imposed upon Britain, Rothschild bought Jerusalem from the Ottoman Caliphate.
    And the rest, as they say, is history or the exploitation of the British worker by the pretend Ashkenazi Jew Rothschild.
    Also you should note that most slaving ships were owned by the Jews and almost all slave markets out of Moslem hands, were run by Jews.
    So to talk, as many of your commentators do about Europe or Britain being ruled by the indigenous peoples, is just wrong. Britain has been ruled by Jews for more than 300 years, and some parts of Europe longer than that.
    The Jews have always controlled everything, even the British Empire which one day historians will rename the Rothschild’s Empire, for that is what it truely was.
    It is interesting that the City of London is not part of England. It has different laws, a different police force, different colours (red, white and black…the same as Nazi Germany), a different lord mayor, different traditions that include being the drug money laundering capital of the world, as well as being the tail that wags the British Parliament and the US government in Washington DC.
    So please stop talking about some mythical people rising up and kicking out the immigrants. We are run by the Jews, we have been exploited mercilessly by them for 300 years, and the immigrants do the beck and call of our Jewish (Zionist) masters.

    • Replies: @Heros
  64. @Hippopotamusdrome

    My apologies, Hippopotamusdrome, I didn’t understand you were using sarcasm. I’m too used to idiot muzzies that take themselves waaaaay too seriously.

  65. I use an 8 year old blackberry torch.

    I can use the internet, text, call, bluetooth tether, wifi tether , GPS maps. Basically everything you need in a modern phone minus newer apps and games.

    The screen broke one time when it fell perfectly flat on concrete. It cost 2 tiny screw drivers and 20 dollars to replace the screen. And Ive dropped it almost daily for 8 years.

    The battery is the old style “pop off the back panel and pop in a new one”.

    I guess my point is that unless you need modern “apps”, and just need all the other basic stuff expected from a modern phone, he could probably retrograde and still be fine. That would only cost him 35 bucks, and not be handicapped like the old bricks.

    @Tom Welsh

  66. utu says:
    @anon

    The date, 1530… it is not a coincidence that the onset of North African slavery of whites is about the same as the Protestant Reformation.

    Slavery to N. Africa and to Moor Spain was going on during early Middle Ages. European slaves were rounded up by local princes, strong men and also by Vikings and sold to Jewish traders Radhanites (see wiki) who would take them to slave markets in Prague, Lyon and Venice were male slaves often were castrated and then were taken to Muslim territories. Catholic Church fought it though at first halfheartedly. First they banned trade in Christian slaves. But enforcement was difficult, however it helped to spread Christianity to Eastern Europe because conversion to Christianity offered some protection against being enslaved.

    See the story of St. Adalbert

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gniezno_Doors
    He has a vision of Christ telling him to save Christians from slavery by the Jewish traders
    He pleads with the Duke of Bohemia for the release of Christians slaves by their Jewish masters

    Then there was another slavery route which was through Crimea which was not closed down until late 18 century when Catherine the Great defeated Turks and annexed Crimea for Russia. Harems of Bagdad, Damascus and Istanbul were filled with Slavic and also Finn girls. Again Jews were the middle men in Crimea between Tartars who were kidnapping people in Poland, Russia and Finland and Turks and Arabs who were buying them.

    The Slavery of Europeans and the Jewish role in it obviously is not researched as it should be. Partly because there was no good guys apart form people like St. Adalbert then. Everybody was dirty but certainly Jews had much higher role than other groups. W/o Jewish know how the scale of it would be smaller. The effort of Catholic Church and Reconquista of Spain eventually stopped it.

    Is there a connection to Reformation? Dutch and English Protestants were allied with Turks against Spain and Catholic Europe. The famous slogan of Dutch was:

    ” Liever Turks dan Paaps (“Rather Turkish than Papist”) Liver Turcx dan Paus” (“Rather Turkish than Pope…”)

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  67. @jbwilson24

    Would you like to sack Marrakech and rape Tuaregs?)))

  68. Heros says:
    @HiHo

    Great comment, and yes, that about sums it up. Hitler was already screwed before he started, and we are far, far worse off now.

    Mao was at Yale and was also associated with Skull and Bones. Mao came from the part of China where jews had settled centuries earlier and therefore might have been jewish or crypto. All of Mao’s critical advisors were jews.

    Putin is surrounded by Chabad Lubbovitz and is constantly kow-towing to Bibi and Israel.

    So here is my question: Is there any hope that Russia or China can stand up to the Talmudic juggernaught, or are both already in on it too?

  69. RobinG says:
    @Tom Welsh

    I’m still using a [1930’s era?] Magic Chef gas range. A feature of new appliances is their “smartness” which I regard as exposure to external tracking and interference. Same with new computer-dominated cars, vulnerable to hacking. Also a continual annoyance when the chips malfunction. Remember Obama’s big push to have people junk their older cars? What a waste.

    Nice string of comments, including 29.

  70. zen says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    Try “The Myth of the Andalusian Paridise,” by Dario Fernandez-Morera.

  71. @stevecel

    You’re absolutely right of course. We should all just do the inevitable thing, if you know what I mean.

    You first.

  72. utu says:
    @jbwilson24

    Personally I would prefer civil war with all its rapine, brutality and horror. It’s no fun if we can’t impale Paki rape gangs as a hobby.

    Here you have a how to on impaling.

  73. @Hannah Katz

    We need to import immigrants to extend the illusion that the governments ponzi schemes are feasible. The are dependent on taxes paid by the current generations of workers to fund the benefits promised to previous generations (and already paid for by themselves, they were told).

    If Capital was taxed as labor is, the reduction of the need for labor would be seen as a good.

  74. Bliss says:

    The Moors are not black. They look like Southern Europeans, some are lighter and some are darker, like Greeks, Italians or Spaniards.

    How many of the lighter ones are descendants of the numerous European slaves captured by the Barbary pirates?

    King Mohammad VI of Morocco:


    [MORE]

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8704571.stm

    At the time of his death in 1956, the Lord of the Atlas was the most powerful man in Morocco and one of the wealthiest men in the world.

  75. Seraphim says:
    @utu

    1536 is the date when the “Sultan of Sultans, the sovereign of sovereigns, the dispenser of crowns to the monarchs on the face of the earth, the shadow of the God on Earth, the Sultan and sovereign lord of the Mediterranean Sea and of the Black Sea, of Rumelia and of Anatolia…”, Suleyman called the Magnificent, concluded an alliance with “Francesco, king of the province of France” (i.e. Francois I , the Most Catholic King of France, the first daughter of the Church) against the Christian Empire of Charles V (including Spain).
    The initiative belonged to the Most Catholic King Francois. Even before the formalization of the alliance under the pretext of protecting the Christians under Ottoman rule, the Sultan put at the disposition of Francois the fleet of the infamous corsair Hayreddin Barbarossa, a renegade Orthodox (who along with his two brothers conquered Algiers for the Ottomans – Barbary coast) to raid the the Imperial possessions in the Mediterranean. The number of captives taken by Barbarossa was enormous.
    “The sacrilegious union of the lily and the crescent” provoked the horror of Christian Europe, but the French stood by it until the final demise of the Ottoman Empire, collaborating in the exploitation of the Christian populations.
    England followed suit quickly under the Protestant Virgin Queen, entering in a trading relationship with Morocco against Spain, selling armour, ammunition, timber, metal in exchange for Moroccan sugar. “There is no evil that is not devised by that woman, who, it is perfectly plain, succoured Mulocco (Abd-el-Malek) with arms, and especially with artillery”. The evil devised by that woman was followed by all her successors.

    But the seeds of the evil were planted by the imperial usurper Karl (known as Charlemagne) by his alliance with the Abbasid rulers against Byzantium. That was also the period when the Radhanites merchants flourished (most probably the Radhanites were from Babylon) and the “King Karl’ of the Franks (actually Pepin the Short) imported from Babylon and planted in Narbonne the ‘descendants of the House of David’ (against the vigorous protestations of Pope Stephen III)!

    • Replies: @utu
  76. utu says:
    @Seraphim

    Interesting. Some doubts about some aspects of Narbonne story here:

    THE NASI OF NARBONNE: A PROBLEM IN MEDIEVAL HISTORIOGRAPHY by JEREMY COHEN, AJS Review, Vol. 2 (1977), pp. 45-76

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  77. anonymous[369] • Disclaimer says:

    ‘Now they were called ‘Barbary corsairs’, formidable adversaries of the Europeans. They raided Europe as far as Iceland, and depopulated villages and towns of Southern France and Spain. They mined Europe for slaves.’

    Alot of these so called moors were sephardic jews. The word slave comes from the slavic people who were enslaved and traded by jews. They also carried out slaving in south america and the carribean.

  78. Skeptikal says:

    “Do not push Moors, or you’ll regret it. You may regret it anyway, as Desdemona did.”

    Well, this is the comment of an ignoramous.
    Go back and read your Shakespeare.
    It was Iago who “pushed” Othello, not Desdemona.
    What a gratuitously stupid comment.
    Lost some respect for you, sir.

    • Replies: @israel shamir
  79. Capitalism = Mass Immigration

    It doesn’t matter to Wall St if these refugees/immigrants get jobs or not, the taxpayer will pay them via welfare and they will go out and purchase lots of things from capitalists. Since the capitalist elite pay little to no taxes, whats not to like for the greedy capitalist? Cha ching!

    So they steal lots of taxpayer money funding their very profitable wars, Raytheon, Boeing, Halliburton, etc, plunder the resources of the victim country, plus the added bonus of creating lots of refugees to flood into our countries where they receive taxpayer money to spend at Wal-mart. Cha ching! All the while sharing none of the profits and paying little or no taxes at all back to this country. Plus then they can complain that we’re spending too much on “entitlements” and cut that off for the natives too! Cha Ching! But we can never spend enough on war! Re-read above for why! War is awesome for capitalists!

    War Is A Racket By Major General Smedley Butler
    https://ia802605.us.archive.org/29/items/WarIsARacket/WarIsARacket.pdf

    CIA’s job is to protect elite capitalists, and their “property”, even when it’s in a foreign country. Somewhere like Venezuela! Doesn’t matter if it puts American taxpayers $21 trillion++ in the hole, because they don’t pay taxes! Cha ching!

    Rise of the National Security State The CIA’s links to Wall Street
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article30605.htm

    The CIA: 70 Years of Organized Crime
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/47873.htm

    Everything about the American economic system stinks to high heaven, and no one has done anything to fix it, they’re all corrupted and compromised, so the people have become debt slaves. We are essentially back where our great grandparents were in the 1870’s to 1890’s, with Gilded Age elites controlling the wealth and government of our country, and you are nothing more than serfs and indentured servants to them. They enjoy the riches of life, and you pay the bills.

    We no longer even have a “government” we have a private corporation, with shareholders, operating in the public sector. Government was intended to be of the people, by the people, for the people, and to serve the people, not Wall St.

    Most people have been programmed since birth by Fox, CNN, etc and they don’t have a clue what Socialism actually is. Socialism is government by the working-class. There is not the slightest hint of the working-class ruling over society anywhere in the world.

    Great article Mr. Shamir, I enjoy your work, wish you would post more, but like a lot of us, you probably don’t have much spare time.

    These are some good films to watch, Counter Intelligence is a five part series. They’re all pretty long so you may want to download them with a browser extension, they’re on vimeo as well.

  80. wayfarer says:

    Cultural Marxism: Its central idea is to soften up and prepare Western Civilization for economic Marxism after a gradual, relentless, sustained attack on every institution of Western culture, including schools, literature, art, film, the Christian religious tradition, the family, sexual mores, national sovereignty, etc. The attacks are usually framed in Marxist terms as a class struggle between oppressors and oppressed; the members of the latter class allegedly include women, minorities, homosexuals, and adherents of non-Western ideologies such as Islam. Cultural Marxism has been described as “the cultural branch of globalism.”

    source: https://www.conservapedia.com/Cultural_Marxism

    Why the Left Loves Mass Immigration

  81. bjondo says:
    @Anon

    that time period
    could euro slaves
    even read, write?

    I know they were good designing, building mud huts.

    of course workers died.

    Millions?

    5ds

  82. pensword says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Had you actually spent time in countries populated predominantly by muslims, you’d know that many have proven less tolerant of dissidents than have European governments, which is one reason for the nearly one-way immigration.

    That lack of tolerance in their homeland is a better explanation of the arms stockpile than the asinine perspective that such behavior is necessarily inherent to muslims throughout the world, particularly where nobody is fighting them for their faith.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  83. Seraphim says:
    @utu

    As you correctly observe there are ‘some’ doubts about ‘some’ aspects, mostly about the identification of some of the ‘Nasi’ or about their claims of Davidic descendance (from a Jewish point of view) as well as about the exaggerated claims of Zuckermann (very much exploited by the “Holy Grail-Holy Blood-Da Vinci Code” type of ‘history’) about the ancienty, prestige and extent of privileges of the Narbonne Nesi’im and Jews in general.
    But not about the existence of the ‘patriarchate’ of Narbonne as such, or about the fact that they possessed land, Christian slaves and had a great influence at the royal court. Typically the author suspects all Christian sources as biased against the Jews, therefore unreliable (especially the letters of Agobard of Lyon, the notorious ‘Jew hater’ who had a ‘vested interest’ in confiscating the lands of the Jews in the benefit of the Church).
    Google the name Benveniste.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @utu
  84. Anonymous[469] • Disclaimer says:
    @TKK

    You got jacked. 2500lb of carbon steel should be about $170. If there’s aluminium in there, the price should be a whole lot higher.

    Next time, make a phone call before going in.

  85. @Skeptikal

    Iago pushed but Desdemona regretted)))

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  86. Miggle says:

    A great article. Thanks, Adam. But one of your points perplexes me.

    Would there be immigration without Jews? Yes, for there are enough non-Jews who imitate Jews. Even if not all of them succeed, there are many of them and they are willing to go to considerable lengths. The way to stop immigration is to stop expansion and growth, to kill capitalism as we know it.

    What do you mean by non-Jews who imitate Jews? Are these non-Jews who buy copies of the Talmud, and really try to look like Jews? Or are you equating Jew with Mammonite?

    Yes, stop expansion and growth. Agreed. A senior academic economist, Dr E. F. Schumacher, had his book Small is Beautiful published in 1973, a best seller. Zero impact. Rob Dietz and Dan O’Neill published their book Enough is Enough in 2013, with rave reviews by many significant people, including economists. Zero impact. And there have been a number of other such books. Zero impact.

    Kill Capitalism, fine, but it will never happen without a revolution. It will never happen while there are career politicians. There is what appears a separate issue but which IMHO is very relevant. You yourself have written that American Jews will only allow a nincompoop (your word) to become President.

    With a wry smile, I looked through the emails and articles of yesteryear, when Bush Jr. was elected President. … By astutely providing funds … the Jewish leadership is able to influence the choice … They know what they want: they prefer nincompoops, people of limited intelligence, competence, willpower and doubtful morality, no matter whether they are called Bush or Gore.

    Europe stumbled into World War One for no reason, except that the rulers of all those countries were nincompoops. The impact is still being felt. If we want more intelligent parliamentarians, congressmen, prime ministers, presidents, the way to do it is pick people at random from off the street and pick bus drivers at random from the buses. Say to them, you didn’t apply but you have been picked, you have a seat in the Senate if you want to take it, otherwise it will take us a moment to elect another. And give them fixed terms, with salaries the upper quartile, maybe the upper quintile, of the wages of the general population.

    I really mean, pick them at random off the electoral rolls, so cheap and easy to do in this world where personal computers can generate random numbers or pseudo-random numbers in a millisecond at no cost.

    Then there will be no career politicians, no professional nincompoops, people brilliant at debating but clueless on everything else, who spend most of their time practising speeches. Someone picked at random on one occasion won’t be picked at random again when his term expires.

    That’s what the ancient Athenians did. Not for the general assembly (which was every free man), but for the executive council and other councils and roles. They called it Democracy, a thing unknown in the modern world, though the word itself is a favorite American propaganda word.

    You might think that’s infeasible, because modern America with modern technology and hundreds of military bases all over the world is far more complex than ancient Athens. But I didn’t say elect them for one-year terms. Think of elections every three years for a term of 12 years, a quarter of the members of the House elected every three years but staying for twelve (e.g.). They enter the House for the first time and find there people who have been there six, nine, eleven years. They learn on the job from that more experienced majority. After three years they are Bachelors of Statesmanship. After six years they are Doctors of Statesmanship. And have never been concerned about re-election, which occupies 90 percent of the thoughts of career politicians. And have been immune to lobbyist pressure, have allowed lobbyists to give advice, that’s all. There for 12 years, then out the door, with perhaps a further six months on full salary to give them time to make new careers, now with experience and knowledge that bus drivers don’t have.

    (Other problems: election by lot can elect a maniac; corruption. Solutions exist.)

    The lawyers, i.e. professional debaters and quibblers. although nincompoops like the rest, would refuse the role if elected by lot because the upper quartile of the wage distribution (not a bell graph, hugely skewed) would seem microscopic to them. Their absence would allow reform of the intrinsically corrupt Common Law system to become possible.

    There is a special case, the particularly gifted super-statesman who saves the nation. While the nation remains under threat it is important to keep him leading it. Putin is an example.

    The answer to that conundrum is, special cases need special arrangements. The members of the parliament elected by lot can pass a special law by agreeing to it with overwhelming majority. They can directly appoint such a special member. China recently did something like that. The ancient Romans in times of emergency appointed a special kind of leader. They had a special name for that office, “Dictator”. Occasionally needed, that occasional need does not create a system of career politicians, nor a hereditary monarchy. Those who appointed the Dictator to his office might decide that the office was no longer needed. That person might then also remain on full pay for a further six months.

    My point, revolution followed by election by lot is the only way, will have non-zero impact on the Ponzi scheme of endless growth, will solve the problem.

    (I could say something about the second part of Nincompoop but you redeem yourself with your admission that the Palestinian Arabs are the original Hebrews and your belief that the Palestinians and the Israelis need to form one people with equal rights for all.)

    • Replies: @israel shamir
    , @Seraphim
  87. @pensword

    So, the lack of tolerance in their home countries requires them to stockpile weapons … now that they’ve escaped those countries?

    • Replies: @pensword
  88. Skeptikal says:
    @israel shamir

    Actually, I don’t think Desdemona could be said to “regret” anything unless you mean after she was dead. Let’s be clear: Desdemona was innocent and had done nothing wrong.
    Your “explanation” doesn’t explain why such an unpleasantly silly comment was made in the first place, implying that Desdemona “asked for it.”
    Respect gauge still dropping. ((:-()

  89. annamaria says:
    @Bombercommand

    Don’t be abusive. The art of architecture does not deserve such villainy.

    Next time in Venice, try to take a closer look at the shape of windows, note the use of slender columns and the fondness for the geometric pattern of the screens that make lovely shade inside.
    There was a cultural cross-pollination, including architecture.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @Anon
  90. pensword says:
    @RadicalCenter

    So, the lack of tolerance in their home countries requires them to stockpile weapons … now that they’ve escaped those countries?

    Here’s what Mike said:

    In Muslim countries (e.g. Pakistan) raids by antiterrotist squads on mosques and madrassas have often revealed arsenals that supply terrorist groups.

    Beyond the obvious Balkans, where internecine war is renowned, where in Europe has the same occurred?

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  91. TheJester says:
    @Avery

    Aside from surface decorations, Arabic, Moorish, and Turkish architecture are decidedly Byzantinian. They appropriated it from the parts of the Roman Empire they conquered. Hagia Sophia in Constantinople and its knockoffs throughout the Empire constituted the model for almost every Islamic Mosque that has ever been built.

    The Byzantines created the problems that led to their military defeats. To be Christian in the Byzantine Empire was to accept the emperor as God’s representative on earth. To refuse to pay homage to the emperor and pay tribute (taxes) to Constantinople was both a civil crime and religious heresy. North Africa and the Levant were rife with “heresies” as the outcome of differing Christian traditions as Christianity took root and matured. Constantinople repeatedly sent its emissaries, agents, and armies to enforce imperial control, religious orthodoxy, and tribute from the North African and Middle Eastern provinces. When the Islamic primitives arrived from the desert, they were considered liberators that freed the populace from Byzantine religious oppression, political oppression, and oppressive taxation.

    The narratives that declare that Western Europe received the Greek Classics and its humanist Renaissance from the Islamic world are only partially correct. The Islamic world at that time was already Romanesque and Hellenic as they appropriated Byzantine culture and made it their own. At the same time, the Turkish armies, armed by Europeans with the latest wall-destroying cannon, moved on Constantinople. The educated Byzantines (or what was left of them), packed up their libraries and moved to Italy. The rest is history.

    In the contest between the Islamic Maghreb and Levant and European Christian traditions, one cannot escape the conclusion that one is dealing with two opaque remnants of the Roman Empire. This includes Islam as one among many Christain heresies as one tries to stomach the comical diversity of religious belief in the late Empire. Towards the end of the Western Empire, it unsuccessfully tried to accommodate the myriad contrary and contradictory religious beliefs of its conquered peoples … so much for the power of diversity, one might say.

    As a reborn 19th Century Europe reclaimed its Roman and Hellenic traditions and parts of the Empires’ lost provinces, North Africa and the Levant devolved into what one might call the Arabic primitivism of their desert conquerers (please, I worked for 15 years in the Middle East in a number of countries … I lived the contrast). The question is, Why?

    Yet another Reconquista appears to be in the works: the EU as a diverse, reconstituted Roman Empire bent on reclaiming its lost provinces in the East and within the Levant and Maghreb … along with certain satyric Classical Greek traditions. Worth an essay. It is prophetic that the treaty that established the EEC was signed in Rome in 1957.

    However, if this is true, why is the EU so soon inviting Muslims to reconquer Christian Europe without a struggle? My guess is that future historians will attribute it to two new satanic “suicide cults” — the feminist and LGBTxyz movements — that, for unfathomable reasons, sought to destroy their own peoples and cultures … and themselves.

  92. Miro23 says:

    I spoke to my Moroccan friend Hamid about moving to Europe. He doesn’t want to, though many of his friends, relatives and acquaintances did the move.

    As Shamir points out, there are a lot of crosscurrents in the Maghreb/ Europe story. And they’re still happening.

    As reported in today’s Alicante’s “Información” newspaper, Spanish bus company Vectalia has just won a contract to provide a bus service to a second Moroccan city (this time Safi for 10 years providing initially 35 buses). https://videos-cdn.diarioinformacion.com/multimedia/videos/2019/01/31/164792/vectalia-presenta-marruecos-nueva-flota-1_m.mp4

    Going the other way, Spanish fruit and vegetables are very competitive (German discount supermarkets Lidl aim to make Spain their main European source) and Moroccan producers have themselves captured the Spanish market in French and Runner beans, which means they are Nº 1 competitive in Europe in this category.

    And then anecdotally, I met a Moroccan (millionaire) accountant in his early 30’s who had qualified in France, and had spent some years preparing accounts for small businesses around Paris. He realized that the documentation could all be prepared and presented by internet and switched the work to accountants working in an office block in Casablanca (elite area with high speed internet). French businesses would submit their documentation (invoices etc.) on Friday and have the accounts ready for presentation to the French tax office on Monday.

    Europe is a draw for Moroccans who want to get away from North African corruption, with Spain being a principal destination. There are not many books from this POV but Laila Lalami wrote a good one, “Hope and Other Dangerous Pursuits” showing that Spain is a kind of Moroccan paradise if they can get in legally or illegally. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/015603087X/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i2

  93. Some interesting reactions here to migrants from foreign lands populating White-majority societies. Based on some posts here, one can be forgiven for walking away with the impression that Moslems/Moors offered little to nothing of value to the societies they conquered, only stole from them. With the high crime rates among uneducated immigrants in present day Europe and elsewhere, I am certainly averse to this type moving next to me. But we forget that we were among the first illegals of the new world, along with our “civilized” religion and one of “love”, visiting unparalleled death and mayhem on millions of native inhabitants, the remainder of whom are now corralled into “reservations” drinking and gambling their way to extinction.

    En route to their genocidal raids, plunder and theft of gold, the conquistadores carried high their flags bearing crosses, invoking their “just god” for the misery that awaited their victims. One of my numerous reasons for abandoning religion and its binary simple-mindedness – the perennial, infantile cries of “mine is better than yours” that permeate some posts here and that instead should reflect rational debate.

    • Agree: annamaria
  94. Seraphim says:

    One may wonder why Mexico, visited by the ‘unparalleled’ mayhem and death of its native inhabitants at the hand of few hundred conquistadores carrying crosses, is now one of the most populous countries in the world, overwhelmingly Mestizo and Catholics.

    • Replies: @Anon
  95. @pensword

    Haven’t you heard that Muslim areas in the west, from Stockholm to Paris and beyond, are no-go areas for the cops, even for firemen? So how do you know where they stockpile their weapons: mosques, madrassas, homes, businesses. Their terrorists in the west certainly have no problems acquiring firearms, ammo, and explosives when they go into action, like those who set out from Molenbeek, Brussels, a notorious no-go zone, to wreak havoc in Paris.

    Oh and I’ve lived long-term in many Muslim countries. And there are ethnic differences amongst them, those in SE Asia do tend to be more docile and generally peaceful compared to their Arab, African and subcontinental brothers.

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @pensword
  96. @Miggle

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Indeed “non-Jews who imitate Jews” are people who have no affinity to the natives, who do not mind to destroy society for profit and power, who have no morals beyond criminal code. Such people do not have to read Talmud, and they are being created by the money-making society.
    The money-lender in Madame Bovary tells the protagonist that “he is not a Jew”, and she has nothing to fear – but he acts like an archetypical Jew and brings her to destruction. He is a “non-Jew who imitates Jews”.

  97. Seraphim says:
    @Miggle

    @non-Jews who imitate Jews?
    @non-Jews who buy copies of the Talmud

    ‘Christian’ Zionists and Puritans before.
    Catholics and Protestants alike who ’emended’ the traditional Greek Scriptures (the Septuagint) to make them sound like the (late) Hebrew text.

  98. pensword says:

    Mr. Shamir,

    Thank you for your impassioned case against the dehumanizing effects of unrestrained predation ~ a vein inextricable from our species, yet one necessitating temperance. I’ve had occasion to reflect on the following statement:

    That was the big difference between Europe and the Muslim world: slavery.

    There are two ironies often overlooked in examining the phenomenon of slavery in the ancient muslim world.

    First, as the muslim world expanded, available slaves became scarce due primarily to the practice of Islamic imperatives encouraging equitable treatment and manumission that often resulted in slaves’ assimilation into the freeman’s milieu. This drove those who rationalized the permissibility and necessity of slavery to lands beyond their own in search of new slaves.

    Second, Islam introduced Europe to a variety of political administration that was unprecedented on the continent, one that protected religious liberty. While we may quibble about the extent of such protection, it’s difficult to imagine that a contemporaneous European serf residing outside the realm of al-Andalus would have been able to enjoy such freedom. Whether or not you consider this a variety of slavery may be a matter of opinion, though I’m not convinced today’s Europeans would willingly suffer the rebirth of such an ethos in the land of their ancestors.

    Finally, this: If the owners of capital were so inclined, they could literally eliminate poverty. Advancements in industrial technology may have helped to obviate the need for chattel slavery, yet they have done nothing to exorcise the soul-consuming miasma of wage slavery. It would be nice to imagine that these matters might be easily resolved, though I find most of humankind to be exactly as God describes: oppressive and ignorant. As such, I endeavor to shoulder only the burdens that my two hands may reach, which is both sufficient for the day and the only thing He expects of us, after all.

    May the peace of God be with you.

  99. annamaria says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Here is a prominent supporter of the Open Doors to Europe for non-Europeans, the French-Jewish “intellectual” Bernard-Henri Lévy:
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/25/fight-europe-wreckers-patriots-nationalist

    In response to the nationalist and identitarian onslaught … we need to sound the alarm against these arsonists of soul and spirit who, from Paris to Rome, with stops along the way in Barcelona, Budapest, Dresden, Vienna and Warsaw, want to make a bonfire of our freedoms.

    Well, the true intellectuals have got it: https://williambowles.info/2019/01/31/a-liberal-elite-still-luring-us-towards-the-abyss-by-jonathan-cook/

    …their [Bernard-Henri Lévy and Co] European political heroes appear to be Emmanuel Macron of France, currently trying to crush the popular, anti-austerity protests of the Yellow Vests, and German Chancellor Angela Merkel, manning the barricades for the liberal elite against a resurgence of the nationalist right in Germany.

    Let us set aside, on this occasion, the strange irony that several of the manifesto’s signatories – not least Henri-Levy himself – have a well-known passion for Israel, a state that has always rejected the universal principles ostensibly embodied in liberal ideology and that instead openly espouses the kind of ethnic nationalism that nearly tore Europe apart in two world wars last century.

    The signatories of Bernard-Henri Lévy’ manifesto include novelists Ian McEwan, Milan Kundera and Salman Rushdie, the historian Simon Shama, and Nobel prize laureates Svetlana Alexievitch, Herta Müller, Orhan Pamuk, and Elfriede Jelinek.

    Have the signatories (the supposed “people of letters”) taken the effort to learn about the murderous, anti-democratic, and anti-humanistic actions of Bernard-Henri Lévy? https://freesuriyah.wordpress.com/2014/07/30/bernard-henri-levy-the-godfather-of-the-arab-spring/

    In the 1990s, Lévy was one of the first to call for European and American intervention in the Bosnian War …

    In March 2011, Bernard-Henri Lévy engaged in talks with Libyan rebels in Benghazi, and publicly promoted the international acknowledgement of the recently formed National Transitional Council. Later that month, worried about the 2011 Libyan civil war, he prompted and then supported Nicolas Sarkozy’s seeking to persuade Washington, and ultimately the United Nations, to intervene in Libya…

    In May 2011, Lévy argued for military intervention in Syria.

    As for the manifesto itself, it seems that the same writer that used to embellish Bush the lesser’ speeches has been helping Bernard-Henri Lévy to protect the neo-liberal “freedoms” from decency and truth.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  100. @annamaria

    Yes I’ve heard of that Levi who tries to pass himself off as some kind of philosopher. Unfortunately I’m just a layperson type of philosopher, the kind you come across in pubs, bars, and coffee shops, whose mentor was one Krishnamurti who claimed he never read a book in his life. I’m sure that’s untrue as he was highly educated, and I’ve read far too many books, but it’s about not being influenced by what you read and keeping an open mind. Nothing wrong with being influenced by something sensible either. So I hope someone more versed in western philosophy than I would deconstruct that Bernard Levi to the barest essentials, once and for all, and relegate him to the trash heap of philosophy, history, sociology, where he rightly deserves to be, so we never have to hear or read his garbage ever again.

  101. Z-man says:

    Bernard-Henri Lévy, one of the top candidates of Z-man’s ‘draw and quarter’ policy.

  102. As usual, your well-expressed insights are valuable.

  103. Seraphim says:
    @annamaria

    The existence of some few decorative elements (themselves of Roman-Byzantine origin) on few late Venetian monuments cannot possibly justify the idea of a ‘cross-pollination’ with Muslim seeds for the European architecture as a whole.
    European architecture is derived entirely from the Roman models, which remained there for everyone to see. The mantra of the ‘disappearance’ of constructive traditions during the ‘Dark Ages’ in Europe has been put definitively to rest. One should take into consideration the functionality of the most important architectural monuments of Europe. They were churches, perpetuating the cultic function of the Greek-Roman temples (many times built on the foundations of these temples), monastic complexes, imperial and episcopal palaces.
    Muslims occupied these churches abolishing the cult and transforming them into mere halls for prayer, destroying the paintings and mosaics depicting the life of the Christ and replacing them with passages from the Koran which condemned the Christian cult. They actually demolished the churches, changed their layout, but reused the materials of the previous buildings (like the Great Mosque of Damascus, or the Mosque of Cordoba). The Muslim architecture was devised to be a reflection of the victory of the Muslims over the infidel Christians.
    The idea that Muslim architecture could have been the inspiration of the Romanesque, Gothic, Renaissance monuments is preposterous. All these monuments are the result of a purely Christian ‘program’. But the whole idea of a Muslim origins of the ‘Renaissances’ is preposterous. It is actually counter-factual. The exaltation of Islam over Christianity serves only the old anti-Christian vicious propaganda which was given a new lease of life along with all ‘atheisms’ and ‘agnosticisms’.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  104. pensword says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Haven’t you heard that Muslim areas in the west, from Stockholm to Paris and beyond, are no-go areas for the cops, even for firemen?

    The “no-go zone” claims are largely the domain of zionists such as Pam Geller and Stephen Emerson. They don’t have much credibility, outside of the anti-Islam brigade’s fevered imagination.

    So how do you know where they stockpile their weapons: mosques, madrassas, homes, businesses.

    You presume a lot for someone who asserts that it’s “impossible to know” what happens in these “no-go zones,” intimating the existence of some secretive collective arms cache in a mosque or madrasah for which you haven’t any proof. Is it too much to ask for evidence that any of the imbeciles who perpetrated acts of extremist violence in the name of God received their weaponry from a munitions depot either within a mosque or madrasah?

    The difference is not unimportant. Claiming that their weapons came from one or the other place gives the distinct impression that these institutions sanction such violence. It’s a far cry from claiming that these punks purchased weapons like so many young hoodlums do: through the black market, which, in Belgium, is thriving in arms commerce.

    Oh and I’ve lived long-term in many Muslim countries.

    I’ve not only lived for years in muslim countries, I have an intimate knowledge of muslim people. I break bread with them, cook and eat food with them, work and relax with them, study with them, learn from and teach them, pray with them, laugh and cry with them, and revere them. I am their brother and they are mine. I know Islam from the inside and I can distinguish the faithful among muslims from the pretenders.

    Trying to establish your bona fides by telling us that you “lived long-term in muslim countries” isn’t going to work with me. Been there, done that. I’ve got the t-shirt.

  105. So you claim the Muslims somehow magically change when they arrive in Europe and US. They haven’t yet started their inter-mosque wars that they fight in their countries where there are few Europeans to attack. For that you have to wait until Europe becomes predominantly Muslim. Look I’m not saying they’re all the same, there’s all sorts as in any religion. OK, so you’re not denying that they bring violence with them but why should Europeans have to put up with it?

    • Replies: @pensword
  106. You write:

    “That lack of tolerance in their homeland is a better explanation of the arms stockpile than the asinine perspective that such behavior is necessarily inherent to muslims throughout the world, particularly where nobody is fighting them for their faith.”

    Radical Center did comment on this but just to return to it. There is no lack of tolerance for Muslims in their homelands as after all they’re all muslims. Nobody has a problem with them praying and practicing their religion. But of course the authorities in their countries will not tolerate those who politicise the religion and preach and practice violence. So I can infer from your statement that those escaping from their countries are precisely those types of Muslims, persecuted in their own countries because of their extremism, and it’s even less reason for Europe to accept and tolerate them.

    If you think that I have something personal against muslims you’re wrong, but each society has a right to defend itself. Sure you can even be friends with the extremist types as on a one to one basis they are usually no threat but be at the wrong place and time when they are conducting their actions you will suffer too.

    • Replies: @pensword
  107. annamaria says:
    @Seraphim

    Dear Seraphim, there is no need to reject the widespread instances of cultural cross-pollination and the evidence of independent discoveries of the same architectural principles. I hope that you do not imply that architecture had begun with Greek-Roman temples.

    I am a firm believer in the genius of humanity. No need in sectarian purity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Mesopotamia

    The architecture of Mesopotamia is the ancient architecture of the region of the Tigris–Euphrates river system (also known as Mesopotamia), encompassing several distinct cultures and spanning a period from the 10th millennium BC

    More: https://www.revolvy.com/page/Iranian-architecture

    Iranian architecture or Persian architecture’s history dates back to at least 5,000 BC.

    All major Iron Age civilizations made some use of columns. In Ancient Egyptian architecture (as early as 2600 BC) the architect Imhotep made use of stone columns. … Some of the most elaborate columns in the ancient world were those of the Persians, especially the massive stone columns erected in Persepolis. … The Hall of Hundred Columns at Persepolis, measuring 230 x 230 feet, was built by the Achaemenid king Darius I (524–486 BC).

    http://www.ijirset.com/upload/2016/icete/civil/1_ICETE16_CIV_PID001.pdf

    Arches appeared as early as the 2nd millennium BC in Mesopotamian brick architecture and their systematic use started with the ancient Romans who were the first to apply the technique of using arches to a wide range of structures.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_early_and_simple_domes

    The remains of a large domed circular hall measuring 17 meters in diameter in the Parthian capital city of Nyssa has been dated to perhaps the first century AD. It “shows the existence of a monumental domical tradition in Central Asia that had hitherto been unknown and which seems to have preceded Roman Imperial monuments or at least to have grown independently from them.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Seraphim
    , @Avery
  108. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @annamaria

    The Venetian architecture of which you speak was influenced by the Greek Byzantine archecturr developed before the invasion by the primitive southern Arab Muslims. Right up to the early 1800s the Muslims needed European Christian slaves to build those glorious mosques and other buildings

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  109. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @annamaria

    Please note that all that was accomplished centuries before the Arab Muslim invasions. Your hasty googling and Wikipedia links are evidence that you knew nothing of Mediterranean and central Asian civilization till you googled those Wikipedia articles to feign some low level knowledge.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  110. pensword says:
    @Commentator Mike

    So you claim the Muslims somehow magically change when they arrive in Europe and US.

    No, though if you’re paying attention, you’ll find that most of the extremists are young men who were raised in the west, not in a country populated predominantly by muslims.

    They haven’t yet started their inter-mosque wars that they fight in their countries where there are few Europeans to attack.

    Internecine conflict in Iraq, Syria and Libya accelerated with the presence of the American non-muslim coalition. The purported correlation between the increased presence of muslims in any given region and violent “inter-mosque wars” is, like the myth of “no-go zones,” more propaganda advanced by the anti-Islam brigades.

    OK, so you’re not denying that they bring violence with them

    They don’t “bring violence with them.” Most assimilated it in the west.

    but why should Europeans have to put up with it?

    They shouldn’t.

    They also shouldn’t have to put up with governments who willingly partake in violent “nation-building” operations in far away countries populated predominantly by muslims. But they do. And when the chickens come home to roost, they wonder what they’ve ever done to deserve it.

  111. @Anon

    You mentioned:

    “the primitive southern Arab Muslims”

    Not necessarily so. There is considerable documented evidence that the richest man in history was an African muslim whose wealth in the 14th century exceeded the combined wealth of the Rothchilds and Rockerfellers today:

    https://www.businessinsider.com/mansa-musa-the-richest-person-in-history-2016-2

    • Replies: @Avery
  112. pensword says:
    @Commentator Mike

    There is no lack of tolerance for Muslims in their homelands as after all they’re all muslims.

    This statement alone demonstrates your lack of familiarity with the millenial muslim world’s internal conflicts.

    There is, in fact, not merely government intolerance for some groups, there’s outright oppression and violence against them. Witness what occurred in Egypt when the Muslim Brotherhood ascended to power by democratic election. Colonel Qaddafi was brutal with sincere muslims, and following his removal, the muslims of Libya still contend with each other for the throne. The political leadership of Turkey under a lengthy period of Kemalist administration was thoroughly tyrannical toward private madrasahs. The list goes on.

    And no, none of the muslims subject to such treatment had to stockpile arms or threaten violent revolution.

    the authorities in their countries will not tolerate those who politicise the religion and preach and practice violence.

    Religion is political, whether you or I like it, and while some organizations may constitute a legitimate threat to civil order, quite often, those authorities to which you allude are simply rationalizing a policy of subjugation in which the implementation of ideas inherent to any given group constitute a threat to their corruption and subordination to non-muslim polities. Said polities provide financial aid and military assistance for the low, low cost of keeping a proverbial lid on any populist movement that might upset the status quo.

    I passed on your inference, since it’s predicated upon falsehood.

    Look, let’s be realistic. You can pour your heart into prohibiting any further immigration of muslims to Europe, but it’s as wasteful an effort as the construction of a wall between Mexico and the United States. It’s just not going to happen.

    And there isn’t a foolproof solution for the events that made Anders Brevik or the Ghengis Khan wannabes of Mollenbeek infamous. You could pour millions of Euros into surveillance and policing and it still won’t prevent potential attacks with any certainty.

    Punks will be punks. Mass shootings, false-flag or otherwise, will occur. Governments will commit atrocities and airbrush them from their official history. And there is nothing you or I can do to stop it.

    Human beings are feral, predatory omnivores with a rapacious appetite that, unrestrained, will yield ever more destruction and bloodshed on earth. Until we come to terms with this facet of our self, we cannot begin to fathom just how alien we are to the angels among us. Would that we were aware of them, it would reduce all our posturing and presumptuous piety to a disposition of shame. Neither you nor I are responsible for evil we didn’t bring forth by our own two hands. At the very least, we should thank God for that, however unworthy of news coverage such gratitude may be.

  113. Anon[257] • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    The reformation was a back to Judaism and the OT crusade. Many sects repudiated the Trinity, Jesus and the Holy Spirit spirit in favor of the one and only Jewish old man in the sky G-d.

    Calvin and Knox both proclaimed
    “ There is but one G-d and that is the
    G-d of Israel.

    If a sect doesn’t believe Jesus is G-d it’s not Christian. The Jews weren’t fooled by the Calvinist wanna be Jews.

    The OT approved of slavery. Roman Catholic Church disapproved. Eastern Orthodox and western Protestants did because the Jews and OT did approve of slavery.

  114. Seraphim says:
    @annamaria

    No need of ‘reversed’ sectarian purity either.
    That the art of architecture was invented thousands of years before the Greco-Roman temples is a too well known fact and too general to explain particular evolutions. You attack a straw man.
    We were not talking about cultural exchanges in general, but about a specific moment of the European architecture, when a supposed Islamic influence revived the supposedly lost art in Europe. Art which as a whole was a continuation and development of the classical Greco-Roman architecture, which was more dependent on the Egyptian architecture of the Pharaohs (of the temples at that) than on the Mesopotamian one, with incorporation of North European construction traditions.

    The Mycenian dome of the Treasury of Atreus, the Pantheon dome, other Roman domes, the Dome of the Hagia Sophia, still standing, predate all known Persian ones, albeit that the dome structure is prehistoric, which may explain the ‘independent’ inventions (from the Asian yurt to the Eskimo igloo) and their vast spread. These Roman domes have been the inspiration and models for the Greek geometers Isidore of Miletus and Anthemius of Tralles, the architects of the Dome of Hagia Sophia, who have not only the models before their eyes, but also the mathematical theory of the Greeks (which were studied in schools all over the Empire).
    In any case, there is no doubt that economic, political, cultural contacts and exchanges between diverse civilisational areas have been the order of the day from prehistory, as a wealth of archeological discoveries (placed in a clear chronological perspective) clearly demonstrate. For example, the similarities between Chinese Neolithic cultures and the East-European Neolithic cultures known as Tripolie-Cucuteni are so striking and detailed that they preclude the idea of ‘independent’ inventions and suggest that the ‘Silk Roads’ were in use long before Greco-Roman times.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  115. Avery says:
    @annamaria

    #94 annamaria {Don’t be abusive. The art of architecture does not deserve such villainy.}

    See #109 by poster [Seraphim] why being (supposedly) ‘abusive’ is warranted in many cases. Countering Islamist propaganda and disinformation at the expense of Christians is fully warranted.

    #109 Seraphim: {Muslims occupied these churches abolishing the cult and transforming them into mere halls for prayer, destroying the paintings and mosaics depicting the life of the Christ and replacing them with passages from the Koran which condemned the Christian cult. They actually demolished the churches, changed their layout, but reused the materials of the previous buildings (like the Great Mosque of Damascus, or the Mosque of Cordoba). The Muslim architecture was devised to be a reflection of the victory of the Muslims over the infidel Christians.}

    #113 annamaria {Iranian architecture or Persian architecture’s history dates back to at least 5,000 BC.}

    Quite: Iranian/Persian architecture, for which Muslim today claim credit like everything else, predates birth of Islam by 1,000s of years.

  116. Avery says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Let’s assume that the information about Mansa Musa is correct. No way to be certain if it is, but let’s assume it is. What of it?

    One can be primitive, and be very wealthy: the two are not mutually exclusive.
    Today in American there are football players who come from…. uuummmm….. gang-banger backgrounds, yet are very wealthy. Many couldn’t even finish high school. But were carried along, because they were very good at sports.

    In ancient Greece some Olympic athletes became very wealthy.

    Regarding Musa:
    [Musa became ruler of the Mali Empire in 1312, ………. During that period, the Mali Empire flourished thanks to ample natural resources like gold and salt.]*

    So Musa became very wealthy due to being born on land that had immense natural wealth. Not unlike today’s Gulf sheikhs who owe their immense wealth to the accident of being born on land under which lie oceans of black gold. And of course Gulf sheikhs are world renown for their high culture and civilizational achievements.
    Right.

    _______________________
    * https://www.history.com/news/who-was-the-richest-man-in-history-mansa-musa

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  117. Anon[197] • Disclaimer says:
    @Seraphim

    Because of two women:
    Isabella, catholic Queen od Spain decreed (in her testament even) that the conquered Indians would receive equal education in the colleges and heathcare in the hospitalary system built by the Spanish, and that any possible ethnic combination of women and men that went to bed together would end up married, their offspring legitimate.
    Our Lady of Guadeloupe effected, ten years after Cortés conquered, a massive conversion of the native population, effectively being mother to a civilization of love that offset the lossof catholics in Europe due to the Protestant “Reformation”.
    No amount of masonic coups and persecutions, from 1820 onwards, have so far been able to overcome that supernatural truth. There are some things that the Lord of History has willed to be.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  118. Anon[197] • Disclaimer says:

    “It is enough to defeat the greed, the spirit of getting more and more; and then we shall softly land on a green meadow.”

    Not really. It is traitors, jews or others, who act on greed. The Islamic hordes act on principle: the non-muslims exist to be conquered, and any land that once was islamic still is islamic and must be reconquered.

    But for Europeans, and all westerners, it is not about greed. It is not even about the stupid quest for pleasure. We simply must have children, and a culture of life. What is Europe? What does “the West” even mean? We have cut our Christian roots and lost respect for natural law. And we wonder why we cannot thrive, or build, or defend ouselves!

  119. @pensword

    While I agree with you that the West shouldn’t interfere in muslim countries and your point that they are not the only ones responsible for violence, I don’t care much for your other statements or your self-righteous tone giving yourself airs about your vast knowledge and other’s ignorance.

    I wasn’t implying the social strife in Libya, Iraq and Syria caused mainly by the West but actual real iner-mosque violence such as in Pakistan, Egypt, etc.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/24/world/middleeast/mosque-attack-egypt.html

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37387475

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1558685/Red-Mosque-suicide-attack-kills-13-in-Pakistan.html

    You’re obviously one of those who thinks that because you can’t beat them you should join them. If so good luck as there’s no going back for you, leaving Islam for another religion is anathema and earns you a death sentence according to Islamic law. No doubt many in Muslim countries would happily choose some other religion but that’s how they keep them faithful.

    • Replies: @pensword
  120. @Avery

    Annamaria was commenting that one shouldn’t dismiss cultural historical cross-pollination and I just wanted to add that perhaps we should’t dismiss achievements of our historical muslim enemies. I am not implying that one has to like, accept, or adopt other’s culture but there’s no need to insult or denigrate it unfairly. Let’s not get a chip on our shoulders the way they do.

  121. Seraphim says:
    @Anon

    I notice the striking resemblance of the image of the ‘Virgen de Guadalupe’ with the banner of Cortes of 1521 displayed in the Museum of National History.

    • Replies: @Anon
  122. @pensword

    I’d actually like to cut this debate short but your insults about my ignorance keep getting me to respond.

    What makes you think I don’t know about the muslim brotherhood and their conflict with the more secular Arab national socialist regimes? And do you know who was instrumental in setting up the muslim brotherhood and this islamic fundamentalism and whose instruments they really are? Perhaps I do know a lot more than you suggest but that I choose to side with the likes of Colonel Muamar Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Bashar El Assad, and the current military regime in Egypt who struggled/struggle to preserve a working, stable, safe and productive society against the nation wreckers. Oh and I know that the fundamentalists do tend to get democratically elected and that is why democracy should be denied them.

    • Replies: @pensword
  123. utu says:
    @Seraphim

    Good article (in Czech) on Prague Slave Market in 9-10 century by Dušan Třeštík. Including Moravia, Poland and Kiev. Detail information on prices, volume…

    https://is.muni.cz/el/1421/jaro2015/AEA_16/um/54995610/Trestik_otroci.pdf

  124. Japanese friends often told me (when I’d regret slow growth of Japanese economy): we do not want more. The years of rapid growth were the years of our misery. The years of stagnation are just fine for us

    So the average Japanese understands nothing of basic economics either? Are they hoping to die before the complete collapse of their debt-ridden “system”?

    It is nice of Mr. Shamir to admit you can never trust the Jews; they’ll sell you out in a heartbeat if it fits their aims.

  125. annamaria says:
    @Anon

    Let me fancy you have never traveled to Central Asia or studied History of Architecture.

    I care not about the religious beliefs of the great creators, whether Phidias, or al Hazem, or J. S. Bach.

    Don’t put me into the same crowd with Jewish supremacists that look upon non-Jews as non-humans.

    The concept of Middle Eastern influence on Venetian architecture, as well as the understanding of the stylistic cross-pollination in architecture, is not new: http://nccsc.net/essays/ruskin-venice-and-fulcrum-european-architecture

    You certainly need to visit the precious city: https://courses.lumenlearning.com/boundless-arthistory/chapter/renaissance-architecture/

    Venice, the capital of the Veneto, has a rich and diverse architectural style, the most famous of which is the Gothic style. Venetian Gothic architecture is a term given to a Venetian building style combining use of the Gothic lancet arch with Byzantine and Ottoman influences. The style originated in 14thcentury Venice, where the confluence of Byzantine style from Constantinople met Arab influence from Moorish Spain.

  126. annamaria says:
    @Seraphim

    “We were not talking about cultural exchanges in general, but about a specific moment of the European architecture…”

    — And I was writing specifically about Ottoman influence on Venetian architecture.

    Yes, it was not for nothing that Pythagoras had spent his formative years in Egypt.
    Later on, the European Renaissance had benefited from Al Hasen’ works in optic:

    Few mathematical and scientific writings in the Middle Ages have been as influential as those of Ibn al-Haytham [Alhazen], whose works were translated into Latin, Italian, and Hebrew…. His mathematical works influenced Roger Bacon, Frederick of Fribourg, Kepler, Snell, Descartes, and Huygens and many others

    Should this give a fit to a purist? Don’t think so.

    http://sumscorp.com/img/file/1977_Review_Edgerton_Renaissance_Rediscovery_of_Linear_Perspective.pdf

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  127. Anon[197] • Disclaimer says:
    @Seraphim

    Perhaps in the general femenine demeanor, but the one in that painting is a white woman, the style medieval and european. One of the salient points about the Guadeloupe image is that it is a young mestizo maiden. It is revered in Mexico as a “vero icono”, that is, not painted by human hands. Like the Shroud of Turin. A good short read about the whole story, including scientific testing, is Paul Badde’s “Guadalupe”. It includes the beautiful Nican Mopohua, the text about the apparition written by Moctezuma’s nephew, Antonio Valeriano in the 16th century.

    Cristobal Colón’s original three ships were “La Niña”, “La pinta” and “Santa María”, which could read “The girl paints Holy Mary”.

    Cortés’ main vessel was “Holy Mary of the Conception”; the banner on that ship had the latin inscription for “Friends, let us follow the Cross. If we truly believe, in truth, in this sign we shall conquer.”

    Cortés, no wimp, was a firm believer in the Virgin’s power to quash the serpent. (The Aztec’s main God, fittingly enough, was the feathered serpent Quetzalcoatl). After winning a battle, he would have Our Lady’s image set atop the pyramids. Of course used a Spanish marian advocation, the sevillian Virgen de los Remedios.

  128. Seraphim says:
    @annamaria

    Can I just notice, without being deemed a ‘purist’ (who you seem to equate with ‘Jewish supremacists’), that your quotation exalting the influence of Alhazen, does not match anything in the link where it supposedly was taken from? You can find in it (which is a critical review of a book about the rediscovery of the linear perspective) phrases like this: “Edgerton goes on to contrast Alberti’s work with the ‘unrelievedly sterile optics of Alhazen, Witelo, Bacon or Pecham’. This statement not only downplays his earlier claim concerning the ‘insights’ of ‘the greatest of the Arab optical theorists’….

    The problem is not the influence of Islam on European science (or lack of it), but your unwarranted) directed at those who do not sing the politically correct mantra of the debt that Europe supposedly owes to Islam, like for the supposed invention by Alhazen of the ‘scientific method’.

  129. Seraphim says:
    @Seraphim

    A slight typo. It is your ‘unwarranted anger’.

  130. @Seraphim

    If I may chime in here, although you and annamaria seem far better versed than I am in this matter, I do have some general knowledge about the history of science.

    Regarding the influence of Arab science on Europe, or the debt of Europe to Arabs as you put it, I believe that precedes the age of political correctness and the current invasion of Arabs and muslims onto European soil. I think this was the long accepted view among European historiographers of science who even talked about the Arabs preserving ancient Greek knowledge that was lost during the so-called dark ages. Weren’t we all taught so at school? I have since revised my own understanding and think that the so-called dark ages were a myth, if you consider the architectural endeavours of that period such as the building of castles, churches and monasteries throughout Europe, the Christian culture of the Byzantine Empire, monks preserving and copying the classical Greek and Roman texts, the recorded wisdom of the saints of that period, chivalry, developments in armoury, martial arts, the art of frescoes and icons, etc.

    Also it is questionable how much of the Arab sciences and technologies were original or just imported from India and China.

    On the other hand, respect should be given where respect is due. Some of these current politically correct folks, whites and others, tend to denigrate all European achievements while elevating those of other races. Many of those of other races seem to have an inferiority complex which they then invert into a superiority complex, leading to some neurotic reactions on their part, when confronted with the achievements of European civilisation. I don’t think we should mirror them in this respect when considering achievements of their own cultures. But as whites are being threatened demographically and are on the defensive in some respects, I do find that some white advocates are starting to adopt some of these same archetypical victim characteristics. Some react like bulls to a red cloak when shown that some other race or religion has also created some remarkable achievements. Lest we forget Angor Wat, the Taj Mahal, and a lot more.

  131. Seraphim says:

    The denigration of ‘European achievements’ is certainly older than PC. Its root is in the whole sale assault against the traditional Christian culture of Europe (wrongly called ‘medieval’) and its metaphysical and cosmological underpinnings, which started with Protestantism and its ‘secularized’ offspring, the Enlightenment (of which PC is its pathological form) when man anointed himself the supreme judge of everything. Renaissance (we should talk about Renaissances) was an attempt to resume the severed ties with the classical tradition, preserved integrally, make no mistake, in Byzantium. It is true that the fault of this severance lay primarily at the feet of the first Protestantism which was the Papacy (with its anti-Byzantine crusades) and was compounded by the Arab invasions (which were anti-Byzantine ‘crescent’-ads – excuse the barbarism). Arabs preserved parts of it, which they largely distorted according to their theological views (Islam was a sort of Protestantism too). ‘Medieval’ thinkers were looking for the genuine classical tradition and were not satisfied with the third hand translations of the works of the Greeks.
    What is true, is that the Protestant/Enlightenment Europe invented ‘Science’ as the only truth discovered by it (the apple falling on Newton’s head), opposed to and surpassing all knowledge that preceded it, which induced that overinflated presumption of Western intellectual superiority. They denied and denigrated all cultural achievements of other civilizations built on metaphysical and cosmological grounds akin to those of the classical European tradition. ‘Medieval’ thinkers did not denigrate or deny the achievements of the ‘others’. Proof is their use of Arab achievements!

  132. annamaria says:
    @Seraphim

    1. In the previous post, I have made a disclaimer that I do not care for the religious affiliation of the great masters, whatever field of their activity. Perhaps it is going to offend you that I also respect Spinoza and L. Wittgenstein. Where have you found in my posts the “anger directed at those who do not sing the politically correct mantra of the debt that Europe supposedly owes to Islam?” Where have you found in my posts the words “debt to Islam?”

    2. I made a modest and very local observation that the architecture of Venice shows the influence of Arabic architecture (a well-known phenomenon, by the way). It turned out that it was not PC to have a positive attitude towards anything Arabic. Why such a rage against a suggestion that European and Arab cultures could cross-pollinate?

    3. Alhazen had written highly influential work on optics. What’s your problem with his discoveries and their possible influence on the Renaissance painter like Ficino? (“oh, sweet perspective…”)

    4. Perhaps you do not see the irony in your desire to elevate European achievements to the only viable source of anything valuable for humanity. Relax. Aristotle did not believe in empirical studies. Cheney is not an Arab.

  133. pensword says:
    @Commentator Mike

    I don’t care much for your other statements or your self-righteous tone giving yourself airs about your vast knowledge and other’s ignorance.

    It’s not intentional, Mike.

    Unless there is explicit evidence to suggest otherwise, I’ve been confident about my claims in this thread, whether it concerns the falsehood of European “no-go zones” or the lie that the leadership of predominantly muslim countries has always been tolerant of their muslim citizenry. Perhaps this comes across as self-righteous to you, though you should be aware of the fact that such lies are demonstrably toxic, used to rationalize bigotry against and dehumanization of muslims. I’m sure you’re a decent fellow beneath all of this, and that you yourself don’t have this in mind; but it undeniably facilitates such behavior in many others.

    While you may not present these myths with any particular tone, they are inherently deleterious and should be addressed as such. Don’t take it personally, please. This sort of thing comes with the territory of debate and it can serve to strengthen you.

    I wasn’t implying the social strife in Libya, Iraq and Syria caused mainly by the West but actual real iner-mosque violence such as in Pakistan, Egypt, etc.

    All right, then.

    These incidents are relatively recent and should be viewed in light of the recent upheavals throughout the millenial muslim world. They are certainly not an indication of any normative feature of Islam and do not constitute evidence that an increase in Europe’s muslim population will necessarily result in such internecine conflict.

    You’re obviously one of those who thinks that because you can’t beat them you should join them.

    I’ll infer that this is just an emotional response to the perceived sleight you felt. It misses the mark, but so be it. Perhaps you’ll see things differently after this response.

    If so good luck as there’s no going back for you, leaving Islam for another religion is anathema and earns you a death sentence according to Islamic law.

    So I’ve read.

    I have no desire to leave Islam and I’m well aware of the pervasive belief among millennial world muslims that apostasy warrants capital punishment. I myself used to acknowledge this conviction until, upon further research of our primary source material, determined that this claim is, of itself, a corruption of a haddith that originally referred to false-flag renegades whose action threatened the very existence of a muslim polity. It was applied by Abu Bakr, the first Caliph to succeed The Prophet, when a Yemeni faction proved treasonous against Medina.

    Generations later, as nominally muslim administrations grew more corrupt, the interpretation of the religion fell victim to the predations of the ruling class, who sought to relegate dissent against their authority to “apostasy” deserving of death. These distortions ~ such as death for adultery and abrogation ~ have remained unfortunately calcified in ostensibly “Islamic” jurisprudence to this day, though a new generation of ‘ulama is now discovering their religion beneath the refuse heaped upon it.

    And thank God for it.

    No doubt many in Muslim countries would happily choose some other religion but that’s how they keep them faithful.

    You perceived me to be arrogant for making statements that were far less presumptuous than this one. I don’t think you have that much knowledge as to prove this claim with any confidence.

    That being said, I’d like to see muslims of the millenial world allowed actual ~ as opposed to rhetorical ~ freedom, something which they’ve been denied for far too long.

    As far as I’m concerned, let the apostates go. What practitioner of any religion would want the burden of such individuals as willingly reject his faith? The millennial world is rife with hypocrisy for this very reason, compelling those without sincerity to swear perfunctory allegiance. They’re not faithful and it’s doubtful they’ve ever been as such. Good riddance to them. No need to kill what’s already dead.

  134. pensword says:
    @Commentator Mike

    And do you know who was instrumental in setting up the muslim brotherhood and this islamic fundamentalism and whose instruments they really are?

    If you’re predicating some conspiracy theory on the basis of its Jewish origin, then Sisi himself, an inveterate enemy of the MB, would also qualify. Arguendo, if both claims are true, then all that matters are the ideas they represent, and al-Banna, by effecting widespread reforms in social welfare, has had a far more beneficial impact upon the average Egyptian than Sisi has ever had.

    I choose to side with the likes of Colonel Muamar Gaddafi, Saddam Hussein, Bashar El Assad, and the current military regime in Egypt who struggled/struggle to preserve a working, stable, safe and productive society against the nation wreckers.

    I don’t deny good works by anyone if and when they’re done, by whomever they may be done. Both Qaddafi and Hussein sought independence from the dollar, which appears to have been a sin worthy of capital punishment, much like apostasy is according to The Torah. Separating the wheat from the chaff is exacting work.

    That being said, I’m unapologetically muslim, and if and when muslims are denied their rights, by whomever they may be denied, at the very least, I keep a record of it. The extent to which some of the aforementioned leaders (have) acted to deny those rights is irrefutable. Were it to occur in your home country, against you and your fellow congregants, in the manner in which it has occurred in those countries, I doubt you’d be so cavalier with that “working, stable, safe and productive society” line, penned so comfortably from where you sit.

    The fact that zionists had to depose Saddam and still seek to depose Assad in order to advance the “Clean Break” directive is incidental to the reality of the oppressive policies of those two men ~ a reality exploited to great effect by Israel’s American media outlets, but nonetheless true.

    Oh and I know that the fundamentalists do tend to get democratically elected and that is why democracy should be denied them.

    Well, at least you’re an honest fascist, keeping a firm lid on the will of the people.

    Good luck with that.

    • Replies: @Commentator Mike
  135. Seraphim says:

    @What’s your problem with his discoveries and their possible influence on the Renaissance painter like Ficino? (“oh, sweet perspective…”)

    My problem is with this kind of sloppy ‘knowledge’. Ficino was not a painter. He was a priest, theologian and scholar (with advanced medical training) who received in Florence the Platonic tradition, which he thought reconcilable with Christianity, directly from the horses mouths (so to speak), from the Greek scholars refugees from the onslaught of the Ottomans. If anything, he made much use of anti-Jewish and anti-Moslem polemics. He especially combated and rejected Averroes (the reputed Arab commentator of Aristotle, who indeed had a deleterious influence upon the Scholastic theology, preparing the intellectual background of Protestantism), in the same vein as the most traditionally Christian Doctor Angelicus.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  136. annamaria says:
    @Seraphim

    Yes, I misspoke. That was Uccello, not Ficino.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  137. Seraphim says:
    @annamaria

    OK, dear, please get my avuncular advise: get your act together if you don’t want to repeat the class.

  138. @pensword

    I appreciate that you’re a pious Muslim but it’s your tone that provokes my sarcasm. Believe me I have had people extremely well versed in Islam trying to persuade me for far longer than I care, but this missionary messianic zeal of some devotees does tend to annoy me and actually gives me a worse impression of Islam than I should have.

    And about those politicians, even the best ones who really try to do some good do step on so many toes that it’s easy to find fault with them and justify taking them out to plunge their nations into chaos and barbarism.

    And there, you couldn’t help accusing me of being a fascist because I denied democratic rights to those in muslim countries. You try bringing some civil order to a place like Egypt where Taharrush Gamea has become a street sport. Looking at some videos of that game I can appreciate the huge challenges of trying to impose order in those countries. I’m not surprised they sentence to death 1,000 people for a single murder and if some of them weren’t even present at the scene of the crime so be it. And if it’s not enough that decent Arabs in their own countries have to put up with it all we decide to import their perpetrators and their predatory pastimes into our own countries. You decide to control your inner demons through your faith, other muslims require a more hands on approach. And don’t start telling me they’re not real muslims, or good muslims, or fake muslims, I’ve heard that too often enough.

    This same democracy in the west is not much better, it is democratically elected governments that are bombing those Arabs into the stone age, and the voters are collaborators of their own governments in this respect, I don’t deny that. But I don’t agree either that muslims should somehow be given free rein to wreak havoc on western streets as revenge or be treated with gloves when it comes to protecting the public.

    If democracy throws up something that is ultimately good for the people that’s fine by me.

    It’s better to leave further discussion when the same or similar topic is broached again in a newer post, and it no doubt will be.

    I know that Islam is more than a religion as you mentioned. At the risk of greatly oversimplifying matters I’d say that Islam is politics, and Judaism is just business.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  139. Blubb says:

    When the Arabs came to North Africa and Spain, they killed around two thirds of the native population there, usually starvation. Planned or not? We don’t know. But the Moors certainly didn’t give us St Augustin, because they weren’t Moors back then.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  140. Yes but who was in charge of guarding the gates of Toledo in Spain in 711? Was it the Jews who opened the gates to the invading Moors? Couldn’t be…

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  141. Seraphim says:
    @Blubb

    Actually there were Moors back then, even earlier. ‘Mauri/Μαῦροι was the Latin and Greek designation of the Berber population of the former Kingdom of Mauretania, which became a vassal of Rome in 33BC. The Emperor Caligula annexed the Kingdom in 44AD, transforming it in the Provincia Mauretania, subsequently split in two: Mauretania Caesarensis, comprisong western and central Algeria with the capital at Caesarea, and Mauretania Tingitana, the northern Morocco, with the capital at Tingis (today’s Tangier).
    Augustin was, of course, a Roman citizen, but from a family of Romanized Berbers. His family name Aurelius, suggests that they received the Roman citizenship by the Edict of Caracalla of 212AD. We have to live with that.

  142. Seraphim says:
    @Joekoool102

    There were already in Mauretania a number of Berber tribes who converted to Judaism. They have been converted, in some historians opinion, by the Jews from Cyrenaica who escaped the Roman retribution for the massacres inflicted on the Roman population during the messianic revolt of 116-117, and took refuge in the mountains bordering Tripolitania and Tunisia and in the mountains of Algeria and Morroco. Others think that there were already refugees from the Jewish War of 66-67. No doubt, these populations harbored a seething resentment (along with their messianic dreams) against their ‘oppressors’, the Roman Empire, the more since the Empire converted to Christianity, thus becaming ‘persecutor’ of the Jews. There is little doubt also that the proper Jews engaged in their usual business (commerce, slave-trading, usury) and looking for free-hand in their dealings, impeded by Imperial regulations.
    They have been the fifth column which facilitated the Arab conquest of the Maghreb. They, along with the ‘Judaized Berbers’, betrayed Queen Dihya or Kahina who led the resistance against the Arabs. They scorched the fields inducing starvation, which was blamed on her and leading to a revolt. It is claimed that she was a ‘Judaized Berber’, but the accusations that she was a ‘sorcerer’ and a ‘persecutor of Jews’ indicates that she was Christian.
    The Jews who opened the gates of Toledo were originally alighting from Mauretania.
    The Jewish-Arab alliance against Byzantium under the slogan of the common ‘Abrahamic religion’ is a well documented fact. Alliance which held fast, despite bursts of occasional Muslim ‘anti-semitism’ (quickly put down by the Muslim leaders) to these very days. The conquest of Spain was more than an accident, it was an essential strategic move in the encircling of Byzance. The 8th century is roughly the date of the conversion of the Khazars also.
    Bernard Henri Levy is a Moroccan Jew.

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