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Damned Lies and Statistics About Black-On-White Farm Murders In South Africa
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Farming in South Africa is the most dangerous occupation in the world. Farmers there suffer more murders per-capita than any other community on earth outside a war zone. Since the dawn of democracy in the country, farming South Africa has been slaughtered by black South Africans in ways that would do Shaka Zulu[*]Shaka, born 1787, was a Zulu paramount chief, and a monster of psychopathic proportions who once sated his scientific curiosity by dissecting 700 pregnant women. proud.

The Transvaal Agricultural Union’s numbers (purported to be the most reliable) are bolstered by Genocide Watch. (I wrote about this here.) By this assessment, South African farmers were being exterminated at the annual rate of 313 per 100,000 inhabitants, 3,000 since the election of the sainted Nelson Mandela (1994), two a week, seven in March of 2010, “four times as high as is for the rest of the [South African] population,” in the words of Genocide Watch’s Dr. Gregory H. Stanton.

The number of farmers martyred on land many their families had farmed since the 1600s has since been revised downward by the African National Congress (ANC) government, its police and lickspittle social scientists. This is good if true; bad if doctored for the purpose of diminishing the facts.

The Democratic Alliance used to dispute any crime statistics issued by the South African Police Service (SAPS). The tiny, tokenistic, opposition to the “all-powerful black majority party” puts the ostensible drop in crime down to the fact that 51 percent of victims no longer bother to report crime, given that corruption is rife, arrests rare, and prosecutions and convictions still rarer. Findings suggest that the SAPS’s optimistic, homicide statistics are not to be believed. According to the Economist (citations in Into the Cannibal’s Pot), the Center for the Study of Violence and Reconciliation has confirmed the existence of a “pervasive pattern of (police) manipulation of statistic.”

Every year, millions in taxpayers’ money are forked out to private security firms to protect … the new South Africa’s police stations. “South Africa’s protectors can’t protect themselves,” they can’t protect the country, and they probably can’t count. The orgy of crime in South Africa reflects the capabilities of this reconstructed police force.

Back when it tracked South Africa’s murder rate, Interpol came up with roughly double the numbers released by the SA police. While slightly more optimistic, the South African Medical Research Council (MRC) tended to corroborate the trend uncovered by Interpol.

Another denier is the South African Institute of Race Relations (SAIRR). In 2004, the Economist had already counted 1,500 rural whites dead “in land-related violence.” By 2010, the SAIRR was finally willing to concede that “not all murders in the country are a function of simple criminal banditry.” Last I checked (2011), they still put the figure “conservatively” at only 1,000, even as most news outlets were reporting around 3,000 farmers murdered. The 3,000 figure was said to consist of “some 1,000 white farmers, along with 2,000 of their family members.”

Perhaps the SAIRR had forgotten to factor in the families.

They’re only filling their crime quota, contend some South African advocates for criminals (who get their ideas from America). The claim is that blacks are merely committing crimes in proportion to their numbers in the population. In 2004, at 76.6 percent of the population, blacks committed 76.4 percent of “intimate femicides” (defined as “the killing of a female person by an intimate partner”). And they committed 68.3 percent of “non-intimate femicides”: “the killing of a woman by someone other than an intimate partner.” (That snippet came courtesy of a not-yet-binned Medical Research Council report.)

Although they’re dying like flies, the words of Steve Hofmeyr—famed Afrikaner activist and musician—tardy whites are proving woefully inadequate to the task of filling their pro-rata crime quotas: At less than nine percent of the population, the corresponding numbers for white South Africans are 3.9 and 2.6 percent respectively. Whites underperform again with respect to incarceration rates. According to the South African Department of Correctional Services, 113,773 criminals had been sentenced as of June 2008, of whom only 2,190 were white. Whites make up only 1.9 percent of the number of sentenced criminals. Weighing in with 90,013 sentenced individuals—approximately 79.1 percent of the total number of criminals sentenced—blacks more than fill their per-population crime allotment.

The minority that dare not speak its name is on the wane. Of the approximately 48 million South Africans, whites number only 4.3 million; blacks more than 38 million. By the estimate of the SAIRR, the white population had shrunk from 5,215,000 in 1995 to 4,374,000 in 2005. Almost a fifth. “Since 1996,” reports the New York Times, “the black population has risen to a projected 38.5 million from 31.8 million.” (Submerged in this sentence is the fact that the same population has been increasing since Europeans settled South Africa.)

While the number of whites is shrinking as a percentage of the total population, their proportion among the scalded, shot, sliced and garroted is growing.

Constituting less than nine percent of the population, whites nevertheless made up 10 percent of the 33,513 “non-natural deaths,” recorded in 2007 by the National Injury Mortality Surveillance System, a project of the MRC and my alma mater, the University of South Africa. At around 80 percent of the population, black “Africans constituted 76 percent of all cases.” The SAIRR would have evinced a modicum of intellectual integrity had it argued that wealth was a confounding variable in crime: Because Indian and white South Africans tend to be wealthier than blacks, the theory would run, they’re likelier than blacks to be targeted.

While Indian South Africans, unlike whites, are not being murdered in ways that beggar belief; there are still “marked differences in feelings of safety between the race groups. Indians followed by white South Africans were least likely to feel safe.” A study conducted by the market research company Markinor for the Institute for Security Studies reveals, “Only 32 percent of all blacks questioned knew someone who was a victim of crime,” compared to 66 percent of Indian adults and 56 percent of white adults.

ORDER IT NOW

Conversely, 32 percent of black South Africans were likely to know someone who made a living from crime, while less than 17 percent of Indians and just seven percent of whites said the same. As of June 2008, the South African Department of Correctional Services reported that 90,013 blacks had been sentenced. Conviction rates stand at a dismal eight percent! The black criminal class is thus 1.13 million strong, at least one million of whom are still at large.

Let not the swirl of statistics conceal the flesh-and-blood casualties of this black-on-white offensive. South Africa’s farmers, undeniably, are the focus of ethnocide. Contrary to the Syrians and Somalis streaming into the United States, they would make fabulous refugees, President Trump. South Africa’s commercial farmers operate in the “most violent environment in the world outside of a war zone,” and they’re the best in the world.

Saint Mandela was mum about farm murders. If his party, the African National Congress and its oleaginous officials and enablers, won’t protect the men and women who feed their country, let them all eat cake.

Ilana Mercer is the author of The Trump Revolution: The Donald’s Creative Destruction Deconstructed(June, 2016) & Into the Cannibal’s Pot: Lessons for America From Post-Apartheid South Africa(2011). Follow her on Twitter, Facebook & Gab. Subscribe to Ilana’s YouTube channel.

[*] Shaka, born 1787, was a Zulu paramount chief, and a monster of psychopathic proportions who once sated his scientific curiosity by dissecting 700 pregnant women.

 
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  1. I have the impression that the main problem in South Africa is horrendous levels of poverty and inequality. All the rest are just symptoms of that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Fidelios Automata
    Ha ha, definitely a knee-slapper, that one.
    , @Floda
    The problem is the low IQ of your average African Negro, some say it is 69 others say it's more like 59. In several European states an IQ of below 70 is regarded as a disability and people are awarded a state pension. The PC Mantra of, 'we're all created equal' means were not supposed to notice this so we cannot the truth which is South Africa is populated and now since Mandella, GOVERNED by people who in European societies would be described as mentally retarded, or morons. There is no way of fixing this problem.
    , @mp
    No fooling. The best thing would be to move the entire population of Portland over to the Dark Continent. Then, they could help their black comrades protest all the poverty and inequality. Portlandians should bring their own tires, though. Making SA blacks foot the bill for all those SJW necklaces would be an example of in your face white privilege, and we want to avoid that. Free South Africa!
    , @MBlanc46
    Right. On the other hand, it could be that the violence and crime are the cause of the poverty and inequality. That said, it's hard to imagine that an average IQ in the 70s doesn't hav something to do with it.
    , @TG
    Indeed, I agree that the horrendous levels of inequality and poverty in South Africa is a great driver of this. When people are crushed into the dirt, things get nasty, and visible minorities get stepped on first (ask German Jews during the 1930's).

    But the big driver of increasing South African poverty is: an excessive rate of immigration! You see, the native blacks in South Africa had a low fertility rate. And South Africa was relatively prosperous, even with apartheid. But first the white elites, and then the black elites, have used massive immigration from other parts of Africa to flood the labor market, driving wages for the many down and profits for the few up. Some things transcend race. Like Money.

    If you dig you can find references to native black South Africans protesting all those foreign blacks being imported in excessive numbers. Of course, the only explanation for black South Africans protesting the mass immigration of blacks from other countries is that they are racist. Cue ritual progressive wringing of hands. We will stamp out the scourge of xenophobia if we have to kill everyone to do it.
    , @Eric the Red
    Thanks for the stale Marxist meme. Come back again if you ever learn to think for yourself.
    , @abf
    Poverty and inequality are consequences, not causes.
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  2. @Mao Cheng Ji
    I have the impression that the main problem in South Africa is horrendous levels of poverty and inequality. All the rest are just symptoms of that.

    Ha ha, definitely a knee-slapper, that one.

    Read More
  3. They should just abandon it to the blacks, they’ll destroy it soon enough. At some point a biological weapon will be developed and the whole Continent will be cleared. Just watch.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Realist
    It will be millennia before blacks develop biological weapons on their own.
    , @MBlanc46
    It's my understanding that most of the whites in South Africa have nowhere to go.
    , @Joe Wong
    Perhaps all the White in the South Africa should borrow a page from the Jews and fight for an independent nation in the South Africa.
  4. This was a very strong article. But in true Israeli fashion, Ms. Mercer cannot bring herself to describe the ongoing targeting of white farmers by blacks for what it truly is: genocide.

    And why is this? It’s possible that Mercer cannot bear the thought of diluting her special status as a member of the world’s most precious victim class by sharing that special word.

    Thus the systematic murder of white farmer by blacks doesn’t earn that special label. Instead, she calls it ‘ethnocide’–as if two ethnic groups of the same race are killing one-another. But that is not the case.

    It’s genocide, Ms. Mercer. This is race-driven and race-targeted murder. Black on white.

    And these murders are particularly egregious since this is not a time of war. Indeed, these farmers are not attacking blacks and the white world is not collectively fomenting war against blacks. The same cannot be said of the more famous instance of genocide that occurred during WWII.

    The great ‘non-racial’ political experiment is underway in So. Africa. Whites are attempting peaceful coexistence as an unprotected minority in black-ruled So. Africa. But it’s not working out very well. Whites are being exterminated.

    These white So. Africans deserve refugee status in Europe and America.

    Read More
    • Agree: Rurik, anarchyst
    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    The links Ms. Mercer provides do speak of genocide.
    , @AceZwane
    Its not genocide it is simply taking what was stolen from us by white trash. Please take them, they are a cancer and don't want to leave despite all our best efforts.
    , @Joe Wong
    If the White in S. Africa bands together and fight for a small independent nation, they will have a lot better chance to survive and prosper; the American and European will support them like they support Israeli, a White enclave in southern Africa will has the same geopolitical value as Israeli in the ME.
    , @Newsel
    Mark, could not agree more with your "deserving refugee status" comment.

    It is an awful shame to see such a wonderful country being destroyed by a bunch of Marxists within the ANC and the ongoing targeted genocide of white, mainly Afrikaner, farmers.

    Today SA has it's ANC Marxist leadership, advocating a policy of mandated "redistribution" which will inevitably lead to following the Zimbabwe road map and the reintroduction of food shortages leading to massive levels of famine for the poor of any colour, race or creed, except for the elitist ANC leadership.

    In short, the ANC (Zuma et al) are essentially advocating that SA goes down the same road that Mugabe took Zimbabwe. The road to ruin and famine.

    Other recent day examples of the communist driven road to ruin include Venezuela, the USSR, Cuba, North Korea etc.. It is not their citizens the ANC leadership are trying to help, it is their need to hold onto power by beggaring the common man and women.

    http://reason.com/blog/2014/01/06/man-made-famine-in-zimbabwe-threatens-2
    , @rpdiplock
    What a load of one-sided tosh you spout. Have you heard of 'Flakt-plaas' or Craig Williamson? The previous 'white' administrations operated government sanctioned extermination programs of Africans for at least 69+ years. There were various 'black-sites' and torture sites operated by the white establishment, which were specifically designed and operated for the torture and murder of Africans. Ilana Mercer, seems to have excluded some of the poignant statistics which would spoil her contorted 'good story' with the facts.

    The prisons and torture chambers used for the brutalising of the smarter Africans were controlled by government ministers which indicates that the 'extermination' programs were orchestrated from the highest levels of a white government. The same Nelson Mandela which the writer wants to smear, was jailed for 27.5 years on trumped-up charges in a kangaroo court. But of course, why confuse this one-sided article with the facts.

    Suffice it to say ... Since the time of white settlement - and the greedy rapacious land-theft, by the white invaders and land thieves - there has been a war on the African people. Unlike your fatuous 'genocides,' there has been a real genocide of the African people over the last - at least - 69+ years, i.e. dating back to the Malan government. The Africans have been demonised, brutalised and slaughtered by a conga-line of white psychotic governments and their various bureaucratic instruments. The psychopathic, Craig Williamson, could attest to the government sanctioned thumbs-up, for the wilful murder of [African] innocents.
  5. @Renoman
    They should just abandon it to the blacks, they'll destroy it soon enough. At some point a biological weapon will be developed and the whole Continent will be cleared. Just watch.

    It will be millennia before blacks develop biological weapons on their own.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pachyderm Pachyderma
    'Realist' isn't suggesting a biological weapon developed by Blacks but rather one deployed by non blacks, i.e. Whites... How does the Jewess feels about wiping out the entire race of Black Africans?
  6. The inference that, based on the 8 percent clearance rate, 92 percent of criminals are running free, is unlikely. Keep in mind that many criminals are repeat offenders. Prosecutors, especially in the west, are quite content to obtain a conviction against a criminal, while failing to fully investigate or prosecute other crimes that the criminal may have perpetrated, as the public safety function regarding the particular criminal has been performed.

    Another matter. Your suggestion that the murder rate is 75/100,000 per year is utterly dubious. That number might be true for 1994 and 1995, but it is dubious for the present. This also raises the matter of genocide more forcefully—firstly, a small minority of whites are farmers, and secondly, even at 313/100,000 per year, horrendous as that number is (if true—why would the numbers be the same in the territory of the old Transvaal and the Western Cape, on the one hand, with the tot system and similar abuses, and the Orange Freestate, with the much less rancorous farm labour history, on the other?), would involve, given an average life expectancy of 80 years, of 24 percent of farm populations killed—do you regard the Korean war as a genocide by the US? The numbers were similar (16 percent of the population of the north IIRC, albeit over a much shorter period).

    Also, the same organisation (Transvaal Agricultural Union) includes more recent data, and even they have farm murder rates down since the early 1990s, but up since 2015. In fact, reading their link, the 3000 number is almost certainly an old total attack and not murder number—the TAU lists (mid 2016) 1824 total murders (farmers, family, visitors and workers killed) . Note also in the article the number killed by province; TAU numbers are thus a national estimate, rather than an (old) Transvaal estimate.

    In fact, the only source that I could find to support the claim of 3000+ killed was this one, which appears to simply add AgriSA and TAU numbers—the same game played by the Bosnian Muslim authorities in supporting their genocide claims. The game is simple—don’t check for double counting—most victims are likely to be on both lists. Also, as the TAU list does include *all farm residents* (farmers, family, visitors and labourers). Even more laughably, they use this flaky website as their ultimate source. The one page where they claim to discuss the change from 3500+ murders to under 2000 murders is not publicly accessible.

    Read More
    • Replies: @fnn

    do you regard the Korean war as a genocide by the US? The numbers were similar (16 percent of the population of the north IIRC, albeit over a much shorter period).
     
    What do you expect from liberal Democrats and progressives? Wilson entering WW1 on spurious grounds, FDR provoking WW2 and LBJ in Vietnam.
  7. I’d also like a comment on this article on Steve Hofmeyr’s claims. I’m generally dubious of much of MG’s output, but they give references—are they misrepresenting their references, are their references in error, or is Steve Hofmeyr in error?

    Read More
  8. Yet another source puts the total farm murder rate at 97/100,000 per year, with 38 percent of farm murder victims being non-white (murder rate of white farmers, family etc is 60/100,000 per year, according to this source). Note that summer has the highest murder rate, and summer is December to February (southern hemisphere). From the article:

    Former President Nelson Mandela requested the staging of a Summit on Rural Safety as far back as 1998, in response to concerns from the SA Agricultural Union. At that summit, Mandela warned: “Beyond the immediate human suffering, lack of security and stability in our rural and farming community causes serious disruption to our economy.”

    Compare this to the OP,

    Saint Mandela was mum about farm murders. If his party, the African National Congress and its oleaginous officials and enablers, won’t protect the men and women who feed their country, let them all eat cake.

    Read More
  9. @Mao Cheng Ji
    I have the impression that the main problem in South Africa is horrendous levels of poverty and inequality. All the rest are just symptoms of that.

    The problem is the low IQ of your average African Negro, some say it is 69 others say it’s more like 59. In several European states an IQ of below 70 is regarded as a disability and people are awarded a state pension. The PC Mantra of, ‘we’re all created equal’ means were not supposed to notice this so we cannot the truth which is South Africa is populated and now since Mandella, GOVERNED by people who in European societies would be described as mentally retarded, or morons. There is no way of fixing this problem.

    Read More
  10. Isn’t Ilana Mercer a Jewish woman from South Africa? Jews played a big part in the ANC and in the struggle against apartheid. When the ANC took power the Jews took positions of power. So maybe Jews must take responsibility for the problems there.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    Ilana is a good writer at times, although I don't share her regard for Anna Rosenbaum (Ayn Rand). The only things I liked about Atlas Shrugged were bits of the science-fiction element (retro-future) and the portrayal of Hank Reardon's wife (a very well-drawn character).

    Mercer is also an assumed name. Her father's surname was Isaacson. A rabbi, he was a stout voice for the new South Africa of murdered farm families and ANC 'big men', enough so that he exiled himself, with Ilana in tow, from the old govt.

    This used to come up in results for a quick search, also in the wikipedia article, but that has changed in the last two years.

    I like Ilana and like her writing at times, but her refusal to face reality on that score, or to write on it, is something of a black hole of consciousness.
  11. @Johan Meyer
    The inference that, based on the 8 percent clearance rate, 92 percent of criminals are running free, is unlikely. Keep in mind that many criminals are repeat offenders. Prosecutors, especially in the west, are quite content to obtain a conviction against a criminal, while failing to fully investigate or prosecute other crimes that the criminal may have perpetrated, as the public safety function regarding the particular criminal has been performed.

    Another matter. Your suggestion that the murder rate is 75/100,000 per year is utterly dubious. That number might be true for 1994 and 1995, but it is dubious for the present. This also raises the matter of genocide more forcefully---firstly, a small minority of whites are farmers, and secondly, even at 313/100,000 per year, horrendous as that number is (if true---why would the numbers be the same in the territory of the old Transvaal and the Western Cape, on the one hand, with the tot system and similar abuses, and the Orange Freestate, with the much less rancorous farm labour history, on the other?), would involve, given an average life expectancy of 80 years, of 24 percent of farm populations killed---do you regard the Korean war as a genocide by the US? The numbers were similar (16 percent of the population of the north IIRC, albeit over a much shorter period).

    Also, the same organisation (Transvaal Agricultural Union) includes more recent data, and even they have farm murder rates down since the early 1990s, but up since 2015. In fact, reading their link, the 3000 number is almost certainly an old total attack and not murder number---the TAU lists (mid 2016) 1824 total murders (farmers, family, visitors and workers killed) . Note also in the article the number killed by province; TAU numbers are thus a national estimate, rather than an (old) Transvaal estimate.

    In fact, the only source that I could find to support the claim of 3000+ killed was this one, which appears to simply add AgriSA and TAU numbers---the same game played by the Bosnian Muslim authorities in supporting their genocide claims. The game is simple---don't check for double counting---most victims are likely to be on both lists. Also, as the TAU list does include *all farm residents* (farmers, family, visitors and labourers). Even more laughably, they use this flaky website as their ultimate source. The one page where they claim to discuss the change from 3500+ murders to under 2000 murders is not publicly accessible.

    do you regard the Korean war as a genocide by the US? The numbers were similar (16 percent of the population of the north IIRC, albeit over a much shorter period).

    What do you expect from liberal Democrats and progressives? Wilson entering WW1 on spurious grounds, FDR provoking WW2 and LBJ in Vietnam.

    Read More
  12. @Mao Cheng Ji
    I have the impression that the main problem in South Africa is horrendous levels of poverty and inequality. All the rest are just symptoms of that.

    No fooling. The best thing would be to move the entire population of Portland over to the Dark Continent. Then, they could help their black comrades protest all the poverty and inequality. Portlandians should bring their own tires, though. Making SA blacks foot the bill for all those SJW necklaces would be an example of in your face white privilege, and we want to avoid that. Free South Africa!

    Read More
  13. http://theconversation.com/chinese-engagement-in-african-agriculture-is-not-what-it-seems-56779

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/17/chinese-farmers-take-over-former-white-owned-farms-in-zimbabwe-t/

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/africa-in-focus/2015/11/05/what-do-we-know-about-the-chinese-land-grab-in-africa/

    the stratetgy to force white farmers off the land is deliberate and part of a on going long term plan to replace white colonial enterprise with chinese.

    same old game new master.thats right mr zuma bow down before your new masters.see link above.

    as an ex south african farmer who saw it all coming in slow motion i wish the chinese well in africa.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    There's a (from memory) June 1864 letter in Tbe Times from Darwin's cousin Francis Galton headed "Africa for the Chinese" in which Galton makes a case for encouragong Chinesr to help develop Africa in preference to temperate climate Europeans and, specifically, Indians, but especially Africans
    , @artichoke
    Very interesting links.

    Rex Tillerson just said recently that we'd be engaging with Africa. Probably to keep the Chinese from getting too much control -- fully appropriate. China's been engaged on that continent for years, but doing resource deals is different from taking over formerly white farms, and a lot less ethical.
    , @Hrw-500
    A bit more on the table, there's that article from Infowars https://www.infowars.com/civil-defense-expert-white-genocide-imminent-in-south-africa/ and this blog post from Mike Smith's political commentary. http://mikesmithspoliticalcommentary.blogspot.ca/2017/05/what-exactly-is-zumas-responsibility.html
  14. I read about singing Kill the Boers and statements like A Bullet for a Boer.
    Mandela understood S Africa could not prosper without the whites, I get the impression that the blacks want to destroy the very people who keep their country afloat.
    As far as I know not a single black country was able to prosper.

    Read More
  15. Apartheid was instituted in order to keep the normally-warring tribes from killing each other. In this way, South Africa was able to create a stable society. Despite the (mis)perceived “evils” of apartheid, this system was able to “keep the peace”. There was an influx of immigrants INTO South Africa, despite apartheid.
    I blame the “chosen” for helping to dismantle and destroy a once-prosperous country.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The White Muslim Traditionalist
    Why was it the job or right of white Europeans to do that to native Africans, to decide how they should live in their indigenous land?

    I bet you're the first to whine when an Arab Muslim born and raised in France participates in the political process or even suggests that a law or norm be changed to accommodate a large minority of French citizens, yet you think it okay for an unassimilated minority to impose their laws, their culture and their rules over 90% of the South African population, right?


    Such hypocrisy.

    I think white South Africans should be protected from harm and have freedom to express themselves culturally and participate in South African society, just like Muslims in Europe should, or Latinos in the United States. If you think that the latter two groups should leave or assimilate, but are disgusted at those same demands being directed at Afrikaners, you're a gigantic hypocrite.

  16. @Jon Halpenny
    Isn't Ilana Mercer a Jewish woman from South Africa? Jews played a big part in the ANC and in the struggle against apartheid. When the ANC took power the Jews took positions of power. So maybe Jews must take responsibility for the problems there.

    Ilana is a good writer at times, although I don’t share her regard for Anna Rosenbaum (Ayn Rand). The only things I liked about Atlas Shrugged were bits of the science-fiction element (retro-future) and the portrayal of Hank Reardon’s wife (a very well-drawn character).

    Mercer is also an assumed name. Her father’s surname was Isaacson. A rabbi, he was a stout voice for the new South Africa of murdered farm families and ANC ‘big men’, enough so that he exiled himself, with Ilana in tow, from the old govt.

    This used to come up in results for a quick search, also in the wikipedia article, but that has changed in the last two years.

    I like Ilana and like her writing at times, but her refusal to face reality on that score, or to write on it, is something of a black hole of consciousness.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Eagle Eye
    *IF* it is true that Ilana Mercer's father was pro-ANC, then Ilana's own courage in speaking up for the people of South Africa (a forgotten country now that the ANC is firmly entrenched) is ALL THE MORE ADMIRABLE.
  17. I think that any racial violence is disgusting, white South Africans should be safe as any other color of person.

    However I can’t help but retch at the hypocrisy of white nationalists who call for the ethnic cleansing and genocide of ethnic minorities in Europe but feel righteously indignant when black South Africans do to whites what you’d like to do to blacks, Arabs and people from the Indian subcontinent in Europe.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {...white nationalists who call for the ethnic cleansing and genocide of ethnic minorities in Europe....}


    For example?
    , @Mark Caplan
    The Bantus aren't any more "indigenous" to South Africa than the Europeans, and the Europeans got there well before the Bantus.
  18. @anarchyst
    Apartheid was instituted in order to keep the normally-warring tribes from killing each other. In this way, South Africa was able to create a stable society. Despite the (mis)perceived "evils" of apartheid, this system was able to "keep the peace". There was an influx of immigrants INTO South Africa, despite apartheid.
    I blame the "chosen" for helping to dismantle and destroy a once-prosperous country.

    Why was it the job or right of white Europeans to do that to native Africans, to decide how they should live in their indigenous land?

    I bet you’re the first to whine when an Arab Muslim born and raised in France participates in the political process or even suggests that a law or norm be changed to accommodate a large minority of French citizens, yet you think it okay for an unassimilated minority to impose their laws, their culture and their rules over 90% of the South African population, right?

    Such hypocrisy.

    I think white South Africans should be protected from harm and have freedom to express themselves culturally and participate in South African society, just like Muslims in Europe should, or Latinos in the United States. If you think that the latter two groups should leave or assimilate, but are disgusted at those same demands being directed at Afrikaners, you’re a gigantic hypocrite.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jake
    Let's make that trade. Send all blacks back to sub-Saharan Africa and all Mohammedans back to the Middle East, while forcing all whites to leave those areas.
    , @Rurik

    If you think that the latter two groups should leave or assimilate, but are disgusted at those same demands being directed at Afrikaners, you’re a gigantic hypocrite.
     
    I agree

    Africa is Africa and belongs to its historic peoples. If the blacks of sub-Sahara Africa don't want the whites there, then the whites should leave. Come back to Europe or N. America or some other place that is now for all intents and purposes white and Western and European.

    It's too late for the Aborigines of Australia or the Amerindians of N. America (or S. America for that matter) to reassert their dominion over their ancient lands, due to facts on the ground. But they should be accommodated in every way, like the Amerindians are today in N. America, with sovereign lands, and a hands-off approach to their lifestyles, etc..

    For peace, people's ancient lands must be respected. The Moors had no business being in Spain. The whites in Africa are hated as oppressors and occupiers and perhaps should consider their days there numbered, but they should be welcomed back to Europe or it's hinterlands in Oceana or elsewhere with open arms. The Mexicans and Muslims in the US or Europe are guests, and should act like and be considered guests insofar as they respect the local cultures and laws. The second they don't, they should be sent packing.

    proximity + diversity = war

    now we need to talk about the white, European Jews in Palestine...
    , @anarchyst
    The white South Africans have been there for centuries and were able to extract resources that the blacks were unaware of and were "just there for the taking".
    Whites brought more benefits to the black population than they will ever know or appreciate.
    Wait till the Chinese start to colonize South Africa for the natural resources. That time is coming. They will not be as kind to the black South Africans was the whites have been.
    This is the one misplaced trait that affects all whites of good will--externalized altruism...
    , @KenH

    I bet you’re the first to whine when an Arab Muslim born and raised in France participates in the political process or even suggests that a law or norm be changed to accommodate a large minority of French citizens
     
    And would that large minority of French "citizens" be Muslim? If yes, then this is illustrative of Muslim arrogance, hypocrisy and self righteousness. What gives you or other Muslims the right to demand Europeans make fundamental changes to their laws and culture to suit a growing Muslim minority?

    With few exceptions the rights you are demanding for European Muslims are not extended to non-Muslims in Muslim majority lands. Sure, in some cases they might be granted limited rights and receive minimal state protection, but are otherwise expected to know their place in the lands of Allah. Or else.

    And most non-Muslims have lived in majority Muslim nations as long and often longer than the Muslims. Muslims in Europe are recent interlopers from about the last 50 years.


    ....yet you think it okay for an unassimilated minority to impose their laws, their culture and their rules over 90% of the South African population, right?
     
    You act like S. African whites are Jews who arrive after land has been settled and the wet work against the natives is done to begin taking over. The Boers founded S. Africa and carved a nation out of what was just a landmass with small numbers of warring and savage negro tribes. They paid for the land in blood.

    They created a wealthy, stable and highly livable first world society as European whites so often do such that black birthrates exploded and death rates plummeted. Blacks from all over sub Saharan Africa began immigrating there and the "racist" S. African whites stupidly let them all in which set the stage for their dire predicament today.

    , @Pericles
    The whites were there first, after all.
  19. @Mark Green
    This was a very strong article. But in true Israeli fashion, Ms. Mercer cannot bring herself to describe the ongoing targeting of white farmers by blacks for what it truly is: genocide.

    And why is this? It's possible that Mercer cannot bear the thought of diluting her special status as a member of the world's most precious victim class by sharing that special word.

    Thus the systematic murder of white farmer by blacks doesn't earn that special label. Instead, she calls it 'ethnocide'--as if two ethnic groups of the same race are killing one-another. But that is not the case.

    It's genocide, Ms. Mercer. This is race-driven and race-targeted murder. Black on white.

    And these murders are particularly egregious since this is not a time of war. Indeed, these farmers are not attacking blacks and the white world is not collectively fomenting war against blacks. The same cannot be said of the more famous instance of genocide that occurred during WWII.

    The great 'non-racial' political experiment is underway in So. Africa. Whites are attempting peaceful coexistence as an unprotected minority in black-ruled So. Africa. But it's not working out very well. Whites are being exterminated.

    These white So. Africans deserve refugee status in Europe and America.

    The links Ms. Mercer provides do speak of genocide.

    Read More
  20. That’s some historic myopia, centuries of imperialism, colonialism, resource theft, cultural destruction, religious conversion, slavery, genocide, etc.,etc..

    These folk should thank their ancestors for sowing such positive and just seeds for the future and enjoy the harvest.

    Que white washing in 5,4,3,2,1…

    Read More
  21. @The White Muslim Traditionalist
    Why was it the job or right of white Europeans to do that to native Africans, to decide how they should live in their indigenous land?

    I bet you're the first to whine when an Arab Muslim born and raised in France participates in the political process or even suggests that a law or norm be changed to accommodate a large minority of French citizens, yet you think it okay for an unassimilated minority to impose their laws, their culture and their rules over 90% of the South African population, right?


    Such hypocrisy.

    I think white South Africans should be protected from harm and have freedom to express themselves culturally and participate in South African society, just like Muslims in Europe should, or Latinos in the United States. If you think that the latter two groups should leave or assimilate, but are disgusted at those same demands being directed at Afrikaners, you're a gigantic hypocrite.

    Let’s make that trade. Send all blacks back to sub-Saharan Africa and all Mohammedans back to the Middle East, while forcing all whites to leave those areas.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Acceptable, if you honkies pay back all the wealth looted, and blood money for all the mass murders, over the centuries.

    Deal?

    Do you vile racist f***ers even have that much money to spare?
  22. @Realist
    It will be millennia before blacks develop biological weapons on their own.

    ‘Realist’ isn’t suggesting a biological weapon developed by Blacks but rather one deployed by non blacks, i.e. Whites… How does the Jewess feels about wiping out the entire race of Black Africans?

    Read More
  23. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Blacks have been holy. So, they are washed of all their sins no matter what they do.

    This afro-sacrosanct or Afrosanct mindset must end if we are to speak the truth.

    Read More
  24. @The White Muslim Traditionalist
    I think that any racial violence is disgusting, white South Africans should be safe as any other color of person.


    However I can't help but retch at the hypocrisy of white nationalists who call for the ethnic cleansing and genocide of ethnic minorities in Europe but feel righteously indignant when black South Africans do to whites what you'd like to do to blacks, Arabs and people from the Indian subcontinent in Europe.

    {…white nationalists who call for the ethnic cleansing and genocide of ethnic minorities in Europe….}

    For example?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pericles
    Well, I for one want to see the muslims ethnically cleansed from Europe, either peacefully or by force. Like the muslims have ethnically cleansed christians and jews from their lands, come to think of it. The "White Muslim Traditionalist" will have to go with his or her new people.
    , @Taurus Bulba
    Remember White Muslim Traditionalist, the Arabs/Muslims stole all of Northern Africa, the Levant and Turkey from the Greeks, Romans and Christians. When are you guys going to acknowledge that fact, never mind giving back those lands?

    Also, the biggest slavers in the world were the Ottoman Turks. 18,000,000 compared to 368,000 shipped to America.

    Also, there were no Blacks/Bantus in Southern Africa when the whites showed up. There were the Hottentots. The Whites showed up from the sea in the south, and the Black Africans came down from the North like the Germanic tribes came into the Roman Empire. The Hottentots were overwhelmed and swamped.
  25. @The White Muslim Traditionalist
    Why was it the job or right of white Europeans to do that to native Africans, to decide how they should live in their indigenous land?

    I bet you're the first to whine when an Arab Muslim born and raised in France participates in the political process or even suggests that a law or norm be changed to accommodate a large minority of French citizens, yet you think it okay for an unassimilated minority to impose their laws, their culture and their rules over 90% of the South African population, right?


    Such hypocrisy.

    I think white South Africans should be protected from harm and have freedom to express themselves culturally and participate in South African society, just like Muslims in Europe should, or Latinos in the United States. If you think that the latter two groups should leave or assimilate, but are disgusted at those same demands being directed at Afrikaners, you're a gigantic hypocrite.

    If you think that the latter two groups should leave or assimilate, but are disgusted at those same demands being directed at Afrikaners, you’re a gigantic hypocrite.

    I agree

    Africa is Africa and belongs to its historic peoples. If the blacks of sub-Sahara Africa don’t want the whites there, then the whites should leave. Come back to Europe or N. America or some other place that is now for all intents and purposes white and Western and European.

    It’s too late for the Aborigines of Australia or the Amerindians of N. America (or S. America for that matter) to reassert their dominion over their ancient lands, due to facts on the ground. But they should be accommodated in every way, like the Amerindians are today in N. America, with sovereign lands, and a hands-off approach to their lifestyles, etc..

    For peace, people’s ancient lands must be respected. The Moors had no business being in Spain. The whites in Africa are hated as oppressors and occupiers and perhaps should consider their days there numbered, but they should be welcomed back to Europe or it’s hinterlands in Oceana or elsewhere with open arms. The Mexicans and Muslims in the US or Europe are guests, and should act like and be considered guests insofar as they respect the local cultures and laws. The second they don’t, they should be sent packing.

    proximity + diversity = war

    now we need to talk about the white, European Jews in Palestine…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pericles
    Just one thing: The historic peoples of South Africa are white.
  26. @Mao Cheng Ji
    I have the impression that the main problem in South Africa is horrendous levels of poverty and inequality. All the rest are just symptoms of that.

    Right. On the other hand, it could be that the violence and crime are the cause of the poverty and inequality. That said, it’s hard to imagine that an average IQ in the 70s doesn’t hav something to do with it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji

    On the other hand, it could be that the violence and crime are the cause of the poverty and inequality.
     
    Nah. It's not typical, under normal circumstances, for working and middle-class people to engage in violence. Poverty is the cause of crime, the opposite doesn't make sense at all.
  27. @Renoman
    They should just abandon it to the blacks, they'll destroy it soon enough. At some point a biological weapon will be developed and the whole Continent will be cleared. Just watch.

    It’s my understanding that most of the whites in South Africa have nowhere to go.

    Read More
    • Replies: @artichoke
    These should be the refugees we take. Not Syrians.
  28. @mcohen
    http://theconversation.com/chinese-engagement-in-african-agriculture-is-not-what-it-seems-56779

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/17/chinese-farmers-take-over-former-white-owned-farms-in-zimbabwe-t/

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/africa-in-focus/2015/11/05/what-do-we-know-about-the-chinese-land-grab-in-africa/

    the stratetgy to force white farmers off the land is deliberate and part of a on going long term plan to replace white colonial enterprise with chinese.

    same old game new master.thats right mr zuma bow down before your new masters.see link above.

    as an ex south african farmer who saw it all coming in slow motion i wish the chinese well in africa.

    There’s a (from memory) June 1864 letter in Tbe Times from Darwin’s cousin Francis Galton headed “Africa for the Chinese” in which Galton makes a case for encouragong Chinesr to help develop Africa in preference to temperate climate Europeans and, specifically, Indians, but especially Africans

    Read More
    • Replies: @mcohen
    times have changed the strategic move is to food security. china is buying up agri resources worldwide.that is globalization at work. risky business if a country decides to nationalize resources. afterwards.
    , @fooco1
    "specifically, Indians, but especially Africans"

    That's like saying Norse but especially Africans.

    Aryans (ie Indians) and Africans are about as far apart as is possible to get.

    Aryans (ie Indians) are so instrumental to European religion/culture/language, that the word "Indo" was specifically added to "European" to get the phrase "Indo-European". Indo specifically means India.

    v(Edda) books are the Hindu religion. A almost identical book, with the same name (Edda, !!), in an almost identical language as Indic, featuring similar deities..is the Norse religion.

    Those are the same Aryans as the Aryans of today btw. There was almost zero interracial marriages between Aryans and any other tribes. This apartheid is called the Caste System and has maintained its core strength for over 5000 years.

  29. @The White Muslim Traditionalist
    Why was it the job or right of white Europeans to do that to native Africans, to decide how they should live in their indigenous land?

    I bet you're the first to whine when an Arab Muslim born and raised in France participates in the political process or even suggests that a law or norm be changed to accommodate a large minority of French citizens, yet you think it okay for an unassimilated minority to impose their laws, their culture and their rules over 90% of the South African population, right?


    Such hypocrisy.

    I think white South Africans should be protected from harm and have freedom to express themselves culturally and participate in South African society, just like Muslims in Europe should, or Latinos in the United States. If you think that the latter two groups should leave or assimilate, but are disgusted at those same demands being directed at Afrikaners, you're a gigantic hypocrite.

    The white South Africans have been there for centuries and were able to extract resources that the blacks were unaware of and were “just there for the taking”.
    Whites brought more benefits to the black population than they will ever know or appreciate.
    Wait till the Chinese start to colonize South Africa for the natural resources. That time is coming. They will not be as kind to the black South Africans was the whites have been.
    This is the one misplaced trait that affects all whites of good will–externalized altruism…

    Read More
    • Replies: @AceZwane
    Sounds like sour grapes to me. Whites stole our homeland and refuse to return it so unfortunately they will have to be extirpates the hard way. China is already colonizing California so why don't you focus on that and leave Africa to Africans.
    , @Rdm

    They will not be as kind to the black South Africans was the whites have been.
     
    chuckle
    , @Joe Wong
    Chinese is building Africa for the African with money and labour, not like the White has been ransacking Africa with organized violence and atrocities as well as hunting the Africans as merchandise and selling them as slaves.

    The White should take responsibility for their own deed, creating Chinese as a boogeyman with fake news to white wash their crimes against humanity in Africa shows the White is morally defunct and unrepentant criminal like the unrepentant war criminal Japanese.
  30. @anarchyst
    The white South Africans have been there for centuries and were able to extract resources that the blacks were unaware of and were "just there for the taking".
    Whites brought more benefits to the black population than they will ever know or appreciate.
    Wait till the Chinese start to colonize South Africa for the natural resources. That time is coming. They will not be as kind to the black South Africans was the whites have been.
    This is the one misplaced trait that affects all whites of good will--externalized altruism...

    Sounds like sour grapes to me. Whites stole our homeland and refuse to return it so unfortunately they will have to be extirpates the hard way. China is already colonizing California so why don’t you focus on that and leave Africa to Africans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @artichoke
    What did they steal? What did you have? They can pay you what their land was worth before they make it productive.

    And if they leave you'll starve. Which is I guess OK if you're being like this.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    That sounds like very bad history to me. A much smaller population of Bantu was still moving south into nobody's land (except the Khoi San peoples - remember them?) while the Dutch were settling the Cape and moving north for a very long time before European standaŕds of agricultural productivity and medicine multiplied numbers in a Malthusian world and pushed the whites and blacks into conflict. Of course Apartheid didn't allow for African fertility even if it was otherwise a viable and acceptable policy by those with the guns. But from my side of the Indian Ocean I can't see where the stealing of Bantu Africans' land by the 1650s to 1900 South African ancestors of today's white farmers (let alone professionals, churchmen and miners) can be found. Still, by all means drive them out. We will value most of them in Australia as cotributing taxpayers.
  31. @Mark Green
    This was a very strong article. But in true Israeli fashion, Ms. Mercer cannot bring herself to describe the ongoing targeting of white farmers by blacks for what it truly is: genocide.

    And why is this? It's possible that Mercer cannot bear the thought of diluting her special status as a member of the world's most precious victim class by sharing that special word.

    Thus the systematic murder of white farmer by blacks doesn't earn that special label. Instead, she calls it 'ethnocide'--as if two ethnic groups of the same race are killing one-another. But that is not the case.

    It's genocide, Ms. Mercer. This is race-driven and race-targeted murder. Black on white.

    And these murders are particularly egregious since this is not a time of war. Indeed, these farmers are not attacking blacks and the white world is not collectively fomenting war against blacks. The same cannot be said of the more famous instance of genocide that occurred during WWII.

    The great 'non-racial' political experiment is underway in So. Africa. Whites are attempting peaceful coexistence as an unprotected minority in black-ruled So. Africa. But it's not working out very well. Whites are being exterminated.

    These white So. Africans deserve refugee status in Europe and America.

    Its not genocide it is simply taking what was stolen from us by white trash. Please take them, they are a cancer and don’t want to leave despite all our best efforts.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pericles
    First get rid of the Zulu invaders, then we can talk.
    , @Mazimba
    Once a Kaffir always a Kaffir, you low IQ level of trash!
  32. @Wizard of Oz
    There's a (from memory) June 1864 letter in Tbe Times from Darwin's cousin Francis Galton headed "Africa for the Chinese" in which Galton makes a case for encouragong Chinesr to help develop Africa in preference to temperate climate Europeans and, specifically, Indians, but especially Africans

    times have changed the strategic move is to food security. china is buying up agri resources worldwide.that is globalization at work. risky business if a country decides to nationalize resources. afterwards.

    Read More
  33. @Renoman
    They should just abandon it to the blacks, they'll destroy it soon enough. At some point a biological weapon will be developed and the whole Continent will be cleared. Just watch.

    Perhaps all the White in the South Africa should borrow a page from the Jews and fight for an independent nation in the South Africa.

    Read More
  34. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Jake
    Let's make that trade. Send all blacks back to sub-Saharan Africa and all Mohammedans back to the Middle East, while forcing all whites to leave those areas.

    Acceptable, if you honkies pay back all the wealth looted, and blood money for all the mass murders, over the centuries.

    Deal?

    Do you vile racist f***ers even have that much money to spare?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pericles
    You're just another sore loser, my nigga. A fat black loser with an unfounded sense of entitlement.
    , @abf
    The resources were only useful because whites were capable of mining them. Do you think that current technology of mining gold 4km below surface in SA was worked out by blacks? Think again.

    With you, it would still lie useless in the ground - in many places in Africa it is still like that. Unless you let Chinese in to mine that and give you a part in the process, a part you have not earned.
  35. @Mark Green
    This was a very strong article. But in true Israeli fashion, Ms. Mercer cannot bring herself to describe the ongoing targeting of white farmers by blacks for what it truly is: genocide.

    And why is this? It's possible that Mercer cannot bear the thought of diluting her special status as a member of the world's most precious victim class by sharing that special word.

    Thus the systematic murder of white farmer by blacks doesn't earn that special label. Instead, she calls it 'ethnocide'--as if two ethnic groups of the same race are killing one-another. But that is not the case.

    It's genocide, Ms. Mercer. This is race-driven and race-targeted murder. Black on white.

    And these murders are particularly egregious since this is not a time of war. Indeed, these farmers are not attacking blacks and the white world is not collectively fomenting war against blacks. The same cannot be said of the more famous instance of genocide that occurred during WWII.

    The great 'non-racial' political experiment is underway in So. Africa. Whites are attempting peaceful coexistence as an unprotected minority in black-ruled So. Africa. But it's not working out very well. Whites are being exterminated.

    These white So. Africans deserve refugee status in Europe and America.

    If the White in S. Africa bands together and fight for a small independent nation, they will have a lot better chance to survive and prosper; the American and European will support them like they support Israeli, a White enclave in southern Africa will has the same geopolitical value as Israeli in the ME.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mark Green
    That idea of a white homeland in South Africa was quietly floated around decades ago. But the global progressives and 'anti-racists' (Jews) shouted it down, calling it white supremacism, Naziism, and racism.

    Whites are not allowed to establish white-only countries or even white neighborhoods anymore. It's racist! Racial exclusion and ethnic enclaves are reserved for Jews and designated approved minorities only. These kosher double standards are carved in stone.

    , @Dan Hayes
    Joe Wong:

    It is utterly delusional to think there would be any meaningful American and/or European support for a small independent white nation in southern Africa! It would be utterly against the current zeitgeist.

  36. @anarchyst
    The white South Africans have been there for centuries and were able to extract resources that the blacks were unaware of and were "just there for the taking".
    Whites brought more benefits to the black population than they will ever know or appreciate.
    Wait till the Chinese start to colonize South Africa for the natural resources. That time is coming. They will not be as kind to the black South Africans was the whites have been.
    This is the one misplaced trait that affects all whites of good will--externalized altruism...

    They will not be as kind to the black South Africans was the whites have been.

    chuckle

    Read More
  37. @Joe Wong
    If the White in S. Africa bands together and fight for a small independent nation, they will have a lot better chance to survive and prosper; the American and European will support them like they support Israeli, a White enclave in southern Africa will has the same geopolitical value as Israeli in the ME.

    That idea of a white homeland in South Africa was quietly floated around decades ago. But the global progressives and ‘anti-racists’ (Jews) shouted it down, calling it white supremacism, Naziism, and racism.

    Whites are not allowed to establish white-only countries or even white neighborhoods anymore. It’s racist! Racial exclusion and ethnic enclaves are reserved for Jews and designated approved minorities only. These kosher double standards are carved in stone.

    Read More
    • Agree: Beefcake the Mighty
    • Replies: @AceZwane
    Whites can have a white homeland back in Europe where they came from.
  38. @anarchyst
    The white South Africans have been there for centuries and were able to extract resources that the blacks were unaware of and were "just there for the taking".
    Whites brought more benefits to the black population than they will ever know or appreciate.
    Wait till the Chinese start to colonize South Africa for the natural resources. That time is coming. They will not be as kind to the black South Africans was the whites have been.
    This is the one misplaced trait that affects all whites of good will--externalized altruism...

    Chinese is building Africa for the African with money and labour, not like the White has been ransacking Africa with organized violence and atrocities as well as hunting the Africans as merchandise and selling them as slaves.

    The White should take responsibility for their own deed, creating Chinese as a boogeyman with fake news to white wash their crimes against humanity in Africa shows the White is morally defunct and unrepentant criminal like the unrepentant war criminal Japanese.

    Read More
  39. @Joe Wong
    If the White in S. Africa bands together and fight for a small independent nation, they will have a lot better chance to survive and prosper; the American and European will support them like they support Israeli, a White enclave in southern Africa will has the same geopolitical value as Israeli in the ME.

    Joe Wong:

    It is utterly delusional to think there would be any meaningful American and/or European support for a small independent white nation in southern Africa! It would be utterly against the current zeitgeist.

    Read More
  40. @Mao Cheng Ji
    I have the impression that the main problem in South Africa is horrendous levels of poverty and inequality. All the rest are just symptoms of that.

    Indeed, I agree that the horrendous levels of inequality and poverty in South Africa is a great driver of this. When people are crushed into the dirt, things get nasty, and visible minorities get stepped on first (ask German Jews during the 1930′s).

    But the big driver of increasing South African poverty is: an excessive rate of immigration! You see, the native blacks in South Africa had a low fertility rate. And South Africa was relatively prosperous, even with apartheid. But first the white elites, and then the black elites, have used massive immigration from other parts of Africa to flood the labor market, driving wages for the many down and profits for the few up. Some things transcend race. Like Money.

    If you dig you can find references to native black South Africans protesting all those foreign blacks being imported in excessive numbers. Of course, the only explanation for black South Africans protesting the mass immigration of blacks from other countries is that they are racist. Cue ritual progressive wringing of hands. We will stamp out the scourge of xenophobia if we have to kill everyone to do it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @roo_ster
    TG wrote:
    "And South Africa was relatively prosperous, even with apartheid. "

    I would suggest SA was prosperous because of apartheid, given empirical observation since the ending of apartheid.
  41. I am sure that once they expel the Afrikaners from their farms, South Africa will be about as productive in the agriculture sector as Zimbabwe has become, since expelling and murdering the Rhodesian farmers. The former bread basket of Africa is now a starving basket case.

    We should indeed accept the British and Afrikaner South Africans as refugees and rush them to citizen status so they can vote Republican. :-)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bel Riose
    Agreed -- notwithstanding the hysterical "Antifa" protests which would inevitably follow such a refugee policy.

    I'd like to challenge one of those Antifa feminists to a medieval spike shield duel -- exactly as shown in Talhoffer's Fechtbuch.

    , @anonymous
    Tobacco production in Zimbabwe has returned to normal. It's being cultivated by black farmers.
    , @AceZwane
    Zimbabwe was never a breadbasket. Stop lying out of your ass.
  42. @MBlanc46
    It's my understanding that most of the whites in South Africa have nowhere to go.

    These should be the refugees we take. Not Syrians.

    Read More
  43. @AceZwane
    Sounds like sour grapes to me. Whites stole our homeland and refuse to return it so unfortunately they will have to be extirpates the hard way. China is already colonizing California so why don't you focus on that and leave Africa to Africans.

    What did they steal? What did you have? They can pay you what their land was worth before they make it productive.

    And if they leave you’ll starve. Which is I guess OK if you’re being like this.

    Read More
  44. @mcohen
    http://theconversation.com/chinese-engagement-in-african-agriculture-is-not-what-it-seems-56779

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/17/chinese-farmers-take-over-former-white-owned-farms-in-zimbabwe-t/

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/africa-in-focus/2015/11/05/what-do-we-know-about-the-chinese-land-grab-in-africa/

    the stratetgy to force white farmers off the land is deliberate and part of a on going long term plan to replace white colonial enterprise with chinese.

    same old game new master.thats right mr zuma bow down before your new masters.see link above.

    as an ex south african farmer who saw it all coming in slow motion i wish the chinese well in africa.

    Very interesting links.

    Rex Tillerson just said recently that we’d be engaging with Africa. Probably to keep the Chinese from getting too much control — fully appropriate. China’s been engaged on that continent for years, but doing resource deals is different from taking over formerly white farms, and a lot less ethical.

    Read More
  45. The presence of any productive population in sub-Saharan Africa will always be a source of conflict and death, to the extent that population doesn’t rule over Blacks. As long as it produces stuff to steal, Blacks will try to steal it. Apart from subsistence farming, theft and slavery have long been sub-Saharan Africa’s main economic pursuits.

    The number of farmers martyred on land many their families had farmed since the 1600s has since been revised downward by the African National Congress (ANC) government, its police and lickspittle social scientists. This is good if true; bad if doctored for the purpose of diminishing the facts.

    The number of Jews murdered by the Nazis in WWII has since been revised downward by revisionists. This is good if true; bad if doctored for the purpose of diminishing facts.

    Just sayin’.

    Read More
  46. @Hannah Katz
    I am sure that once they expel the Afrikaners from their farms, South Africa will be about as productive in the agriculture sector as Zimbabwe has become, since expelling and murdering the Rhodesian farmers. The former bread basket of Africa is now a starving basket case.

    We should indeed accept the British and Afrikaner South Africans as refugees and rush them to citizen status so they can vote Republican. :-)

    Agreed — notwithstanding the hysterical “Antifa” protests which would inevitably follow such a refugee policy.

    I’d like to challenge one of those Antifa feminists to a medieval spike shield duel — exactly as shown in Talhoffer’s Fechtbuch.

    Read More
  47. I have the impression that the main problem in South Africa is horrendous levels of poverty and inequality. All the rest are just symptoms of that.

    The impression a hammer makes on a skull is much like the impression Big Media and Establishment History have made on your mind.

    The impression in the reality-based community is that the horrendous levels of poverty in Black populations is a natural result of Black cognitive ability and behavior.

    No fooling. The best thing would be to move the entire population of Portland over to the Dark Continent. Then, they could help their black comrades protest all the poverty and inequality. Portlandians should bring their own tires, though. Making SA blacks foot the bill for all those SJW necklaces would be an example of in your face white privilege, and we want to avoid that. Free South Africa!

    California, not Portland. Yes, moving the entire population of California to the Dark Continent, to work on the problems there, sounds like a perfect solution to the problem of California. Just capital.

    That’s some historic myopia, centuries of imperialism, colonialism, resource theft, cultural destruction, religious conversion, slavery, genocide, etc.,etc..

    Imperialism and colonialism are the only ways that Blacks can be civilized. Destroying a shit culture is no big loss to anyone else. Religious conversion is a non-issue, as Black religion is a sham in any form. If any culture group is best summed up as slavers, it’s sub-Saharan Africans. And there was no genocide.

    That about sums it up, I think.

    ‘Realist’ isn’t suggesting a biological weapon developed by Blacks but rather one deployed by non blacks, i.e. Whites… How does the Jewess feels about wiping out the entire race of Black Africans?

    Actually, his comment suggested the Chinese to me. They’re the ones crammed into their living spaces like sardines, who can actually put African resources to good use. And they’re the ones who might have both the technical ability, and the mindset to pull it off and exploit the resulting vacuum. What’s Mandarin for “one day you’ll thank us”?

    Africa is Africa and belongs to its historic peoples.

    That’s conditional on what rightfully belongs to Whites continuing to do so. Since that no longer obtains, neither does African ownership of Africa. Goose, gander.

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  48. @The White Muslim Traditionalist
    Why was it the job or right of white Europeans to do that to native Africans, to decide how they should live in their indigenous land?

    I bet you're the first to whine when an Arab Muslim born and raised in France participates in the political process or even suggests that a law or norm be changed to accommodate a large minority of French citizens, yet you think it okay for an unassimilated minority to impose their laws, their culture and their rules over 90% of the South African population, right?


    Such hypocrisy.

    I think white South Africans should be protected from harm and have freedom to express themselves culturally and participate in South African society, just like Muslims in Europe should, or Latinos in the United States. If you think that the latter two groups should leave or assimilate, but are disgusted at those same demands being directed at Afrikaners, you're a gigantic hypocrite.

    I bet you’re the first to whine when an Arab Muslim born and raised in France participates in the political process or even suggests that a law or norm be changed to accommodate a large minority of French citizens

    And would that large minority of French “citizens” be Muslim? If yes, then this is illustrative of Muslim arrogance, hypocrisy and self righteousness. What gives you or other Muslims the right to demand Europeans make fundamental changes to their laws and culture to suit a growing Muslim minority?

    With few exceptions the rights you are demanding for European Muslims are not extended to non-Muslims in Muslim majority lands. Sure, in some cases they might be granted limited rights and receive minimal state protection, but are otherwise expected to know their place in the lands of Allah. Or else.

    And most non-Muslims have lived in majority Muslim nations as long and often longer than the Muslims. Muslims in Europe are recent interlopers from about the last 50 years.

    ….yet you think it okay for an unassimilated minority to impose their laws, their culture and their rules over 90% of the South African population, right?

    You act like S. African whites are Jews who arrive after land has been settled and the wet work against the natives is done to begin taking over. The Boers founded S. Africa and carved a nation out of what was just a landmass with small numbers of warring and savage negro tribes. They paid for the land in blood.

    They created a wealthy, stable and highly livable first world society as European whites so often do such that black birthrates exploded and death rates plummeted. Blacks from all over sub Saharan Africa began immigrating there and the “racist” S. African whites stupidly let them all in which set the stage for their dire predicament today.

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    • Agree: anarchyst
    • Replies: @AceZwane
    What an idiot. So Zulu, Xhosa and Sotho migrated to South Africa? You don't know what the hell you're talking about, its better to shut up your retarded mouth and learn some history. Boers built no major companies but instead milked the natural resources that rightly belonged to native Africans.
  49. South Africa has “Made by Imperial England” all over it. You get what you pay for.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Would you care to elaborate and explain that. Both sentences.

    I suspect you are lacking in knowledge of British imperialism (never called English) and of South Africa. Ever heard of "Milner's kindergarten"? If not your first sentence is just a fart in the dark.
  50. The occurrences of Black Africans attacking white farms also occurred in Zimbabwe, with the shortsighted results of starvation (which would be just as much of a problem if it happened in the U.S. because farming requires perseverance, and patience… traits that most radicalized African Americans do not have)!
    Just wait when attacks start happening to the easy targets in the fashionably liberal affluent suburbs, reaping the results of their misguided feckless pandering.

    Elitist/suburban libs browbeat the urban white working class with accusations of racism, hoping this will cause them to deny their own rational self interest (especially re: white flight & self defense). Libs believe that if only the white working class would disavow their empirical negative experiences with urban radical African Americans, our broken race relations (enabled by liberal naiveté and SJW malice) will then somehow be solved. Of course this liberal paradigm does nothing more than hide the problem, instead of confronting it.

    And the New Left Progressive SJW sowing of racial hatred, and inculcated free lunch entitlement mentality, into radicalized African American culture, will result in protracted destabilization & disorder. This failing system punishes the workers & savers of this country, while they foot the welfare bill, which results in a slow loss of vested interest in keeping this dysfunctional system afloat.

    What the radicalized African Americans do not realize is that most everything they have today is through their fellow citizens hard work. If they eliminated whitey, then most African Americans will exceed their carrying capacity and die off … but by keeping the current system going, we will all risk potential die off from its economic/social unsustainability (either way radicalized African Americans would die off).

    Third option is for radicalized African Americans to stop the nonsense, refuse being misled by their leftist progressive controllers, and learn to have cooperative productivity with their neighbors. Liberals (whether fashionable/sincere/elitist) would have to learn to be realistic, and stop living in a dream world.

    Will they do that? I hope so, but it will probably not happen. Radical African Americans are just too entrenched in their racial animosities, and Liberals are too entrenched in denying reality (always trying to force it to conform to their own feel good opinions). Unlike any other ethnic group, many African Americans’ worldview is confined by race, thus making it very difficult to reason with them preventing the attainment of common values. Well then, get ready for harsh reality (and try to survive the die off) because wishful thinking will not prevail against it. Pray that I am wrong.

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  51. US is 13% black, and it’s a huge headache. ‘

    Did anyone really think a nation that is 9% white and 91% black could work?

    Only race-deniers who pretend blacks are dark-skinned Germans.

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    • Replies: @joef
    You are correct. But the % of African Americans, besides being a huge headache, is a huge economic burden that cannot be indefinitely sustained.

    If African Americans wanted peaceful coexistence on their end, they would get it from the rest of us. But they initiate the majority of the racial aggression, so obviously they do not.

    And Libs/Leftist/Progs/SJW expect the rest of us not to acknowledge the problem, and accept victimhood. If you refuse to become a potential victim to African American aggression, they brand you a racist.
    Yet the liberal/leftist doublethink, pushed by academia and the MSM, created popular passivity in the face of this threat.

    People rather deny the consequences in order to be fashionably liberal than accept harsh uncompromising reality. And as of now, the harsh reality is while other races build this country, radicalized African Americans are destroying it.

    None of this will end well if it continues, and I do not see any course correction coming. We may not want the results of all this upheaval, but that won't prevent it from happening.

    And if thats the situation here, it definitely will not be better in South Africa. Its a social/economic cancer that has potential future catastrophic outcomes.

  52. the best solution to solve the farming problem in south Africa is to move from a capitalist owner operated business to a socialist kibbutz method of farming.that is how farming worked before the whites arrived and is best suited to the African way of life.

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/sundaytimes/stnews/2017/01/15/Citrus-farm-jewel-reaps-harvest-of-neglect

    when I lived in s. Africa this citrus estate was a world class enterprise.taken over by Africans it has slowly fallen apart. there are many examples in africa.

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  53. @Priss Factor
    US is 13% black, and it's a huge headache. '

    Did anyone really think a nation that is 9% white and 91% black could work?

    Only race-deniers who pretend blacks are dark-skinned Germans.

    You are correct. But the % of African Americans, besides being a huge headache, is a huge economic burden that cannot be indefinitely sustained.

    If African Americans wanted peaceful coexistence on their end, they would get it from the rest of us. But they initiate the majority of the racial aggression, so obviously they do not.

    And Libs/Leftist/Progs/SJW expect the rest of us not to acknowledge the problem, and accept victimhood. If you refuse to become a potential victim to African American aggression, they brand you a racist.
    Yet the liberal/leftist doublethink, pushed by academia and the MSM, created popular passivity in the face of this threat.

    People rather deny the consequences in order to be fashionably liberal than accept harsh uncompromising reality. And as of now, the harsh reality is while other races build this country, radicalized African Americans are destroying it.

    None of this will end well if it continues, and I do not see any course correction coming. We may not want the results of all this upheaval, but that won’t prevent it from happening.

    And if thats the situation here, it definitely will not be better in South Africa. Its a social/economic cancer that has potential future catastrophic outcomes.

    Read More
  54. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Hannah Katz
    I am sure that once they expel the Afrikaners from their farms, South Africa will be about as productive in the agriculture sector as Zimbabwe has become, since expelling and murdering the Rhodesian farmers. The former bread basket of Africa is now a starving basket case.

    We should indeed accept the British and Afrikaner South Africans as refugees and rush them to citizen status so they can vote Republican. :-)

    Tobacco production in Zimbabwe has returned to normal. It’s being cultivated by black farmers.

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  55. @mcohen
    http://theconversation.com/chinese-engagement-in-african-agriculture-is-not-what-it-seems-56779

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/17/chinese-farmers-take-over-former-white-owned-farms-in-zimbabwe-t/

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/africa-in-focus/2015/11/05/what-do-we-know-about-the-chinese-land-grab-in-africa/

    the stratetgy to force white farmers off the land is deliberate and part of a on going long term plan to replace white colonial enterprise with chinese.

    same old game new master.thats right mr zuma bow down before your new masters.see link above.

    as an ex south african farmer who saw it all coming in slow motion i wish the chinese well in africa.

    A bit more on the table, there’s that article from Infowars https://www.infowars.com/civil-defense-expert-white-genocide-imminent-in-south-africa/ and this blog post from Mike Smith’s political commentary. http://mikesmithspoliticalcommentary.blogspot.ca/2017/05/what-exactly-is-zumas-responsibility.html

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  56. @AceZwane
    Sounds like sour grapes to me. Whites stole our homeland and refuse to return it so unfortunately they will have to be extirpates the hard way. China is already colonizing California so why don't you focus on that and leave Africa to Africans.

    That sounds like very bad history to me. A much smaller population of Bantu was still moving south into nobody’s land (except the Khoi San peoples – remember them?) while the Dutch were settling the Cape and moving north for a very long time before European standaŕds of agricultural productivity and medicine multiplied numbers in a Malthusian world and pushed the whites and blacks into conflict. Of course Apartheid didn’t allow for African fertility even if it was otherwise a viable and acceptable policy by those with the guns. But from my side of the Indian Ocean I can’t see where the stealing of Bantu Africans’ land by the 1650s to 1900 South African ancestors of today’s white farmers (let alone professionals, churchmen and miners) can be found. Still, by all means drive them out. We will value most of them in Australia as cotributing taxpayers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    It is funny, cos both we Afrikaners, and the South African Bantu, have some Khoi San ancestry (although the bulk of their descendants are classified as "Coloureds"---Bantu were classified as "Black"). But the only people whom we really wronged prior to apartheid were the Khoi San groups, and that could in many cases reasonably be called genocidal (despite some early intermarriage---see Herkoms van die Afrikaner). The wars with the amaXhosa don't count, as they were based on mutual cattle theft.

    Pay taxes in former British colonies? Up to a point, but if the DA doesn't screw up Pretoria, and if Malema continues to behave himself (no more anti-Afrikaner "struggle" songs), and continues with the informal alliance with the DA to keep out Zuma's crooks, I'll happily vote Malema next time; only filial piety keeps me from returning, and there is frankly much more opportunity back home for people with technical education. AceZwane and his (her? AceZwane-kazi?) ideological descendants will be suffering our presence for the foreseeable future---the fact is that the PAC lost to the ANC, long before the fall of apartheid.

    Other than farms that were specifically taken by the apartheid government from black (and other non-white) owners and given to whites, I cannot see a large scale redistribution happening on ethnic lines. The malnutrition problems typical of Zimbabwe (mainly due to Mugabe's doing the IMF's bidding during the 90s, hence destroying the economy---how soon we forget) is not nearly as big in SA (the period of black---really just Nguni groups---malnutrition was 1969 to late 1980s, although the apartheid regime was to blame, and by 1969, the apartheid regime had solved the Afrikaner Kwashiorkor problem, yet there were 10k detected black mainly Nguni cases in 1969), and I'd be curious to know the land hunger of Bantu groups outside the Nguni groups---settling Nguni groups in the Freestate or old Transvaal areas, or worse yet, old Cape, is begging for an ethnic explosion, and I doubt that the ANC would do something that stupid. A much more likely land redistribution would be to end the (both apartheid and ANC sponsored) feudal land-holding patterns in the rural black areas---almost half of RSA's black population is still peasant.

    If the issue of white farms ever does arise, an equitable solution would be co-operatives, as it is a tiny minority of whites who still have land, and the rest of us Afrikaners have been landless since more or less the second Anglo-Boer war. Let everyone try their hand, and avoid stupid decisions of ownership transfer that end up destroying capital.

  57. @Biff
    South Africa has "Made by Imperial England" all over it. You get what you pay for.

    Would you care to elaborate and explain that. Both sentences.

    I suspect you are lacking in knowledge of British imperialism (never called English) and of South Africa. Ever heard of “Milner’s kindergarten”? If not your first sentence is just a fart in the dark.

    Read More
  58. @Wizard of Oz
    That sounds like very bad history to me. A much smaller population of Bantu was still moving south into nobody's land (except the Khoi San peoples - remember them?) while the Dutch were settling the Cape and moving north for a very long time before European standaŕds of agricultural productivity and medicine multiplied numbers in a Malthusian world and pushed the whites and blacks into conflict. Of course Apartheid didn't allow for African fertility even if it was otherwise a viable and acceptable policy by those with the guns. But from my side of the Indian Ocean I can't see where the stealing of Bantu Africans' land by the 1650s to 1900 South African ancestors of today's white farmers (let alone professionals, churchmen and miners) can be found. Still, by all means drive them out. We will value most of them in Australia as cotributing taxpayers.

    It is funny, cos both we Afrikaners, and the South African Bantu, have some Khoi San ancestry (although the bulk of their descendants are classified as “Coloureds”—Bantu were classified as “Black”). But the only people whom we really wronged prior to apartheid were the Khoi San groups, and that could in many cases reasonably be called genocidal (despite some early intermarriage—see Herkoms van die Afrikaner). The wars with the amaXhosa don’t count, as they were based on mutual cattle theft.

    Pay taxes in former British colonies? Up to a point, but if the DA doesn’t screw up Pretoria, and if Malema continues to behave himself (no more anti-Afrikaner “struggle” songs), and continues with the informal alliance with the DA to keep out Zuma’s crooks, I’ll happily vote Malema next time; only filial piety keeps me from returning, and there is frankly much more opportunity back home for people with technical education. AceZwane and his (her? AceZwane-kazi?) ideological descendants will be suffering our presence for the foreseeable future—the fact is that the PAC lost to the ANC, long before the fall of apartheid.

    Other than farms that were specifically taken by the apartheid government from black (and other non-white) owners and given to whites, I cannot see a large scale redistribution happening on ethnic lines. The malnutrition problems typical of Zimbabwe (mainly due to Mugabe’s doing the IMF’s bidding during the 90s, hence destroying the economy—how soon we forget) is not nearly as big in SA (the period of black—really just Nguni groups—malnutrition was 1969 to late 1980s, although the apartheid regime was to blame, and by 1969, the apartheid regime had solved the Afrikaner Kwashiorkor problem, yet there were 10k detected black mainly Nguni cases in 1969), and I’d be curious to know the land hunger of Bantu groups outside the Nguni groups—settling Nguni groups in the Freestate or old Transvaal areas, or worse yet, old Cape, is begging for an ethnic explosion, and I doubt that the ANC would do something that stupid. A much more likely land redistribution would be to end the (both apartheid and ANC sponsored) feudal land-holding patterns in the rural black areas—almost half of RSA’s black population is still peasant.

    If the issue of white farms ever does arise, an equitable solution would be co-operatives, as it is a tiny minority of whites who still have land, and the rest of us Afrikaners have been landless since more or less the second Anglo-Boer war. Let everyone try their hand, and avoid stupid decisions of ownership transfer that end up destroying capital.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Always interesting to hear from someone who is better informed. One elaboration please. What did the IMF advise or demand that Mugabe's government carried out - or was it the World Bank?
    , @Robard
    You're a mendacious troll. The apartheid government did not "take farms from blacks to give to whites". Under its homelands consolidation policy black owned land was exchanged for white owned land. As it happened, blacks had a net gain of land and most white farmers weren't even compensated in land, but had to accept whatever monetary settlement the government forced on them.

    And the Afrikaner Kwashiorkor problem? I'd like to see proof there ever was such a thing under the NP government.
  59. @Che Guava
    Ilana is a good writer at times, although I don't share her regard for Anna Rosenbaum (Ayn Rand). The only things I liked about Atlas Shrugged were bits of the science-fiction element (retro-future) and the portrayal of Hank Reardon's wife (a very well-drawn character).

    Mercer is also an assumed name. Her father's surname was Isaacson. A rabbi, he was a stout voice for the new South Africa of murdered farm families and ANC 'big men', enough so that he exiled himself, with Ilana in tow, from the old govt.

    This used to come up in results for a quick search, also in the wikipedia article, but that has changed in the last two years.

    I like Ilana and like her writing at times, but her refusal to face reality on that score, or to write on it, is something of a black hole of consciousness.

    *IF* it is true that Ilana Mercer’s father was pro-ANC, then Ilana’s own courage in speaking up for the people of South Africa (a forgotten country now that the ANC is firmly entrenched) is ALL THE MORE ADMIRABLE.

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    • Replies: @mcohen
    names of jews who went on trial with nelson mandela at the rivonia trial

    Goldberg, Bernstein, Wolpe, Kantor and Goldreich were Jewish South Africans; Hepple was an Englishman; Kathrada an Indian Muslim; Mandela, Mbeki and Mhlaba were Xhosa people; Motsoaledi and Mlangeni were Pedi people and Sisulu was Coloured (he had an English father and an Xhosamother).[3]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivonia_Trial
    , @Che Guava
    It is true. It is why he exiled himself. So why you want to raise the point is a mystery.

    It does Ilana no favours, your and other similar comments on the thread just make it look like a different agenda at work.
  60. There is a recent headline in the UK Daily Mail regarding the Miss Black University of Texas Pageant re: protests that the winner is “not black enough’. That alone displays the level of African American racial biases, where they even attack each other for it. How do we expect them to get along with the rest of us when they possess such high levels of hatred for others (even within their own community).

    Of Course the liberal response is ignore it, and it will all go away. Unfortunately, I lived in the urban jungle, and interacted with thugs (of all races), and thugs do not go away when you ignore them. They become emboldened. And the New Left/SJW types have encouraged all of African American culture to become thuggish.

    This is one of the fundamental differences between us and South Africa, and Zimbabwe. In these African nations there is a Black majority population, so it only takes a few (low %) of thugs within the overall Black population to make life miserable for Whites living there. If the whole Black population were in fact thuggish, then a complete White genocide would have already occurred.

    In the case of Zimbabwe, Mugabe had a huge pool of population to manipulate with hatred to do his bidding against Whites. Even a small % of the majority population was enough to do his dirty work.

    In the case of the USA (or USSA), the New Left & SJW had only a small minority population to work with. Thus they needed most of them to incorporate hateful thuggish values in order for them to be an effective cultural insurgency against America. Unfortunately, once radicalized, African Americans hatred could not be confined to just specific white people. It overflowed into attacking everyone.

    The Liberals (distinct from Leftist/SJW types) still run around with the naive notion that if this bad black behavior is pandered to, and their damage is ignored, that some how things will improve. Liberals also have the wishful thinking that radicalized African Americans will recognize them as the ‘good white people’ (by touching their hearts, no doubt), while attacking the other bad White people. Of course this is just utter nonsense because radical African Americans make no such distinctions.

    Now that the progressive Frankenstein monster of radical African Americans have been created through the power of hatred, we face this constant extortion of ‘give them what they want or their will be a race war’. But Afro American demands are ever increasing, while our economy strains under the load. This will lead to nothing good.

    By refusing to become a victim, the elites actually see you as the bigger threat. That is because they rather kick the can down the road, for fear of confronting the Frankenstein, than saying “no” and dealing with the consequences. The elites attitude is for us to ‘shut up & pay up’ indefinitely. This is obviously not sustainable in the long term to everyone but a moron, or an empirically inept liberal. Either it is confronted now, or confronted later at greater cost.

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  61. @Eagle Eye
    *IF* it is true that Ilana Mercer's father was pro-ANC, then Ilana's own courage in speaking up for the people of South Africa (a forgotten country now that the ANC is firmly entrenched) is ALL THE MORE ADMIRABLE.

    names of jews who went on trial with nelson mandela at the rivonia trial

    Goldberg, Bernstein, Wolpe, Kantor and Goldreich were Jewish South Africans; Hepple was an Englishman; Kathrada an Indian Muslim; Mandela, Mbeki and Mhlaba were Xhosa people; Motsoaledi and Mlangeni were Pedi people and Sisulu was Coloured (he had an English father and an Xhosamother).[3]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivonia_Trial

    Read More
    • Replies: @joef

    names of jews who went on trial with nelson mandela at the rivonia trial
     
    That may be true, but what does that have to do with Ilana Mercer herself? If so, is Thomas Sowell guilty for the actions of all radicalized African Americans (obviously he is not). We must be careful not to assign collective guilt to all members of a group. That is a tool of the Leftist radicals. I myself am just as guilty of it within my own comments re: African Americans (and as a result try to make distinctions by identifying the troublemakers as radical, etc).

    A person is guilty for his own actions exclusively, or the actions he helps to promote, not everyone else's within their member group. If we start subscribing collective guilt, we become no better than the ones we criticize (while the SJW laughs at us, that we are using their political tools to attack each other). The major difference between most of us and radical Afro Americans is that we want to make distinctions based on rational inquiry; Instead the radical Afros just want to hate. Civilization is built upon the former, not the later technique.

    Ilana Mercer is only responsible for what she has done in her own life, not for her father, nor for other leftist jews. Lets not fall into the same errors of the French Revolution and their leftist reign of terror. On balance, I rather trust someone who holds decent honorable values from another group, than someone within my own group who may be a deceitful malicious predator (and to identify them, I must make rational distinctions).

    Everything else is just distraction. It really comes down to what are the major problems that are detrimentally affecting this nation's future prospects. And our two worst problems confronting this nation is long term economic decline, and racial balkanization with African Americans.
    These are our two most fundamental hard problems that have the potential to cause the devolution of this nation into competing regional failed states.

    The canaries in the coal mine are already here in Stockton Cal, East St Louis Ill, Detroit, Gary Ind, Camden NJ, Newburgh NY & Bridgeport Conn (with the exception of Detroit, the smaller units collapse first). The only reason they have not collapsed into complete chaos is because the States and Federal system still exists (for now, until its their turn). We are slowly entering into a decline that will resemble 1977 squared, and compared to that, everything else is just intellectual mental exercise.

  62. @TG
    Indeed, I agree that the horrendous levels of inequality and poverty in South Africa is a great driver of this. When people are crushed into the dirt, things get nasty, and visible minorities get stepped on first (ask German Jews during the 1930's).

    But the big driver of increasing South African poverty is: an excessive rate of immigration! You see, the native blacks in South Africa had a low fertility rate. And South Africa was relatively prosperous, even with apartheid. But first the white elites, and then the black elites, have used massive immigration from other parts of Africa to flood the labor market, driving wages for the many down and profits for the few up. Some things transcend race. Like Money.

    If you dig you can find references to native black South Africans protesting all those foreign blacks being imported in excessive numbers. Of course, the only explanation for black South Africans protesting the mass immigration of blacks from other countries is that they are racist. Cue ritual progressive wringing of hands. We will stamp out the scourge of xenophobia if we have to kill everyone to do it.

    TG wrote:
    “And South Africa was relatively prosperous, even with apartheid. ”

    I would suggest SA was prosperous because of apartheid, given empirical observation since the ending of apartheid.

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    • Replies: @AceZwane
    South Africa is prosperous because of its natural resources retard.
  63. @Johan Meyer
    It is funny, cos both we Afrikaners, and the South African Bantu, have some Khoi San ancestry (although the bulk of their descendants are classified as "Coloureds"---Bantu were classified as "Black"). But the only people whom we really wronged prior to apartheid were the Khoi San groups, and that could in many cases reasonably be called genocidal (despite some early intermarriage---see Herkoms van die Afrikaner). The wars with the amaXhosa don't count, as they were based on mutual cattle theft.

    Pay taxes in former British colonies? Up to a point, but if the DA doesn't screw up Pretoria, and if Malema continues to behave himself (no more anti-Afrikaner "struggle" songs), and continues with the informal alliance with the DA to keep out Zuma's crooks, I'll happily vote Malema next time; only filial piety keeps me from returning, and there is frankly much more opportunity back home for people with technical education. AceZwane and his (her? AceZwane-kazi?) ideological descendants will be suffering our presence for the foreseeable future---the fact is that the PAC lost to the ANC, long before the fall of apartheid.

    Other than farms that were specifically taken by the apartheid government from black (and other non-white) owners and given to whites, I cannot see a large scale redistribution happening on ethnic lines. The malnutrition problems typical of Zimbabwe (mainly due to Mugabe's doing the IMF's bidding during the 90s, hence destroying the economy---how soon we forget) is not nearly as big in SA (the period of black---really just Nguni groups---malnutrition was 1969 to late 1980s, although the apartheid regime was to blame, and by 1969, the apartheid regime had solved the Afrikaner Kwashiorkor problem, yet there were 10k detected black mainly Nguni cases in 1969), and I'd be curious to know the land hunger of Bantu groups outside the Nguni groups---settling Nguni groups in the Freestate or old Transvaal areas, or worse yet, old Cape, is begging for an ethnic explosion, and I doubt that the ANC would do something that stupid. A much more likely land redistribution would be to end the (both apartheid and ANC sponsored) feudal land-holding patterns in the rural black areas---almost half of RSA's black population is still peasant.

    If the issue of white farms ever does arise, an equitable solution would be co-operatives, as it is a tiny minority of whites who still have land, and the rest of us Afrikaners have been landless since more or less the second Anglo-Boer war. Let everyone try their hand, and avoid stupid decisions of ownership transfer that end up destroying capital.

    Always interesting to hear from someone who is better informed. One elaboration please. What did the IMF advise or demand that Mugabe’s government carried out – or was it the World Bank?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    It was both IMF and World Bank, and it was somewhat voluntary on his part.


    The watershed of ZANU's abandonment of a socialist program came in the early 1990s when the government accepted an Economic Structural Adjustment Program (ESAP) designed by the international Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank. The measures of this program (ending subsidies, diminishing protectionism, deflating the currency, "downsizing" social and economic programs) favored transnational companies and the economic and political elites of Zimbabwe (aid and loans were contingent on accepting ESAP) at the great expense of the poorer segments of the population. By the time ESAP had been instituted, state cultural nationalism using Shona emblems had declined substantially. ... By the early 1990s, the honeymoon of the independence period between the masses and the state had been over for several years. The effects of droughts of the early 1990s and the effects of ESAP and other events led to major economic recession and hardship...
     
    Note also that the apartheid government, and to some extent the Rhodesian government, were far more socialist to their own populations than what the post-white governments were.
  64. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Interesting factoid: What are the two groups of people who are most subject to persecution and discrimination in their own countries which the US government has most strenuously fought to keep OUT of our country?

    Answer: White South Africans and Syrian Christians. Obama went out of his way to specifically disallow both groups.

    Interestingly, they are also the among the groups that could have have most easily assimilated into our culture. However, this criteria is now considered as a negative.

    http://www.wnd.com/2017/03/next-refugees-for-america-white-south-africans/

    Read More
  65. @mcohen
    names of jews who went on trial with nelson mandela at the rivonia trial

    Goldberg, Bernstein, Wolpe, Kantor and Goldreich were Jewish South Africans; Hepple was an Englishman; Kathrada an Indian Muslim; Mandela, Mbeki and Mhlaba were Xhosa people; Motsoaledi and Mlangeni were Pedi people and Sisulu was Coloured (he had an English father and an Xhosamother).[3]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivonia_Trial

    names of jews who went on trial with nelson mandela at the rivonia trial

    That may be true, but what does that have to do with Ilana Mercer herself? If so, is Thomas Sowell guilty for the actions of all radicalized African Americans (obviously he is not). We must be careful not to assign collective guilt to all members of a group. That is a tool of the Leftist radicals. I myself am just as guilty of it within my own comments re: African Americans (and as a result try to make distinctions by identifying the troublemakers as radical, etc).

    A person is guilty for his own actions exclusively, or the actions he helps to promote, not everyone else’s within their member group. If we start subscribing collective guilt, we become no better than the ones we criticize (while the SJW laughs at us, that we are using their political tools to attack each other). The major difference between most of us and radical Afro Americans is that we want to make distinctions based on rational inquiry; Instead the radical Afros just want to hate. Civilization is built upon the former, not the later technique.

    Ilana Mercer is only responsible for what she has done in her own life, not for her father, nor for other leftist jews. Lets not fall into the same errors of the French Revolution and their leftist reign of terror. On balance, I rather trust someone who holds decent honorable values from another group, than someone within my own group who may be a deceitful malicious predator (and to identify them, I must make rational distinctions).

    Everything else is just distraction. It really comes down to what are the major problems that are detrimentally affecting this nation’s future prospects. And our two worst problems confronting this nation is long term economic decline, and racial balkanization with African Americans.
    These are our two most fundamental hard problems that have the potential to cause the devolution of this nation into competing regional failed states.

    The canaries in the coal mine are already here in Stockton Cal, East St Louis Ill, Detroit, Gary Ind, Camden NJ, Newburgh NY & Bridgeport Conn (with the exception of Detroit, the smaller units collapse first). The only reason they have not collapsed into complete chaos is because the States and Federal system still exists (for now, until its their turn). We are slowly entering into a decline that will resemble 1977 squared, and compared to that, everything else is just intellectual mental exercise.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pericles
    In case you missed it, you're now responsible for anything those of the same color skin have ever done. Individual responsibility is so over.
  66. @Wizard of Oz
    Always interesting to hear from someone who is better informed. One elaboration please. What did the IMF advise or demand that Mugabe's government carried out - or was it the World Bank?

    It was both IMF and World Bank, and it was somewhat voluntary on his part.

    The watershed of ZANU’s abandonment of a socialist program came in the early 1990s when the government accepted an Economic Structural Adjustment Program (ESAP) designed by the international Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank. The measures of this program (ending subsidies, diminishing protectionism, deflating the currency, “downsizing” social and economic programs) favored transnational companies and the economic and political elites of Zimbabwe (aid and loans were contingent on accepting ESAP) at the great expense of the poorer segments of the population. By the time ESAP had been instituted, state cultural nationalism using Shona emblems had declined substantially. … By the early 1990s, the honeymoon of the independence period between the masses and the state had been over for several years. The effects of droughts of the early 1990s and the effects of ESAP and other events led to major economic recession and hardship…

    Note also that the apartheid government, and to some extent the Rhodesian government, were far more socialist to their own populations than what the post-white governments were.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Thanks, interesting, (not least your last par. - see below)

    Talk about "The Law of Unintended Consequences"!

    I recall getting a laugh at the expense of a senior politician at a meeting about 25 years ago when he extolled precedents from his glory days in the early 70s as reasons for objecting to some Dry/EconomicRationalist policy. I just interjected "But we were all socialists then!" The laughter clearly showed that mental fashion had changed.

    It would be interesting to make a worldwide and multi decade comparison of how long it takes (and the necessary conditions) for ideas to take hold and dominate, how long inertia can maintain them and how quickly an epoch can arrive. For the whole of the post WW2 period till the early 80s a version of Keynesianism that Keynes would have repudiated gave politicians comfort that they could win
    elections by borrowing and spending and promising welfare. I recall it reaching its doomed peak in New Zealand under a right of centre pragmatist about 1979. It was then magnificently, if not permanently, fixed under a Labor government. Shortly afterwards Australia's socialist-cod-Keynesian hangover was ended by a Labor government (supported by the Opposition leader who was later a longserving PM but then a typical backslider for votes).

    Interesting tbat Rhodesian and South African socialism was, presumably, less to do with buying votes than buying peace.

    So I see, and didn't know before, that the dominant economic ideas crudely deployed seem to have done a lot of unintended harm in the 90s in southern Africa, the former USSR, and perhaps parts of Asia during the Asian financial crisis of ?1997. Not applied in thd US of course!

    BTW where is your quote from?

  67. @Hannah Katz
    I am sure that once they expel the Afrikaners from their farms, South Africa will be about as productive in the agriculture sector as Zimbabwe has become, since expelling and murdering the Rhodesian farmers. The former bread basket of Africa is now a starving basket case.

    We should indeed accept the British and Afrikaner South Africans as refugees and rush them to citizen status so they can vote Republican. :-)

    Zimbabwe was never a breadbasket. Stop lying out of your ass.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    Not Zimbabwe, dumbass, Rhodesia. It was the breadbasket of Africa, but because it was founded and run by white people. Look up Rhodesia on google or bing.
  68. @Mark Green
    That idea of a white homeland in South Africa was quietly floated around decades ago. But the global progressives and 'anti-racists' (Jews) shouted it down, calling it white supremacism, Naziism, and racism.

    Whites are not allowed to establish white-only countries or even white neighborhoods anymore. It's racist! Racial exclusion and ethnic enclaves are reserved for Jews and designated approved minorities only. These kosher double standards are carved in stone.

    Whites can have a white homeland back in Europe where they came from.

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  69. @The White Muslim Traditionalist
    Why was it the job or right of white Europeans to do that to native Africans, to decide how they should live in their indigenous land?

    I bet you're the first to whine when an Arab Muslim born and raised in France participates in the political process or even suggests that a law or norm be changed to accommodate a large minority of French citizens, yet you think it okay for an unassimilated minority to impose their laws, their culture and their rules over 90% of the South African population, right?


    Such hypocrisy.

    I think white South Africans should be protected from harm and have freedom to express themselves culturally and participate in South African society, just like Muslims in Europe should, or Latinos in the United States. If you think that the latter two groups should leave or assimilate, but are disgusted at those same demands being directed at Afrikaners, you're a gigantic hypocrite.

    The whites were there first, after all.

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  70. @KenH

    I bet you’re the first to whine when an Arab Muslim born and raised in France participates in the political process or even suggests that a law or norm be changed to accommodate a large minority of French citizens
     
    And would that large minority of French "citizens" be Muslim? If yes, then this is illustrative of Muslim arrogance, hypocrisy and self righteousness. What gives you or other Muslims the right to demand Europeans make fundamental changes to their laws and culture to suit a growing Muslim minority?

    With few exceptions the rights you are demanding for European Muslims are not extended to non-Muslims in Muslim majority lands. Sure, in some cases they might be granted limited rights and receive minimal state protection, but are otherwise expected to know their place in the lands of Allah. Or else.

    And most non-Muslims have lived in majority Muslim nations as long and often longer than the Muslims. Muslims in Europe are recent interlopers from about the last 50 years.


    ....yet you think it okay for an unassimilated minority to impose their laws, their culture and their rules over 90% of the South African population, right?
     
    You act like S. African whites are Jews who arrive after land has been settled and the wet work against the natives is done to begin taking over. The Boers founded S. Africa and carved a nation out of what was just a landmass with small numbers of warring and savage negro tribes. They paid for the land in blood.

    They created a wealthy, stable and highly livable first world society as European whites so often do such that black birthrates exploded and death rates plummeted. Blacks from all over sub Saharan Africa began immigrating there and the "racist" S. African whites stupidly let them all in which set the stage for their dire predicament today.

    What an idiot. So Zulu, Xhosa and Sotho migrated to South Africa? You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, its better to shut up your retarded mouth and learn some history. Boers built no major companies but instead milked the natural resources that rightly belonged to native Africans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    The Zulu and Xhosa especially (although also somewhat true of the Sotho) are populations descendant from intermarriage of Bantus (Cameroon outmigration) and local Khoi San populations (the Khoi san may well have been part of an earlier outmigration from east Africa, and I once heard a claim suggesting a major linguistic divide between Damara/Nama on the one hand and !Kung on the other, possibly due to east African inmigration; there are apparently related linguistic groups in Tanzania). We may have milked the local resources, and especially in the Khoi San (old Cape) areas, the conquest was largely violent. We used the chaos of the wake of the Zulu empire to take the bulk of the Transvaal and Orange Freestate.

    I am admittedly a bit confused---the major companies were after all built by milking the resources, much as the European companies were, and likewise with major state support, going back e.g. to even the Heeren 17/VOC, Hudson Bay and similar companies. What point are you trying to make?
    , @KenH

    So Zulu, Xhosa and Sotho migrated to South Africa?
     
    No, Einstein. If you read my post I said there were pre-existing tribes, but all they did was fight, enslave and kill each other. But the Boers and other Europeans ended tribal warfare and through their productive farming methods and the introduction of medical care those tribes saw a massive increase in their population.

    If it wasn't for the whites you'd still be wearing a bone in your nose and eating insects and weeds.

    You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, its better to shut up your retarded mouth and learn some history.
     
    Yeah, real men issue threats from behind a keyboard using a phony name. We'll call you the keyboard coon.

    Boers built no major companies but instead milked the natural resources that rightly belonged to native Africans.
     
    White S. Africans created S. Africa's economy and all of its commercial activities. In so doing they'd maximized the nation's natural resources which led to the highest standards of living in all of Africa and attracted blacks from other parts of the African continent.

    Thanks to the genocidal ANC and black supremacist rule they are starting to screw everything up. Come to think of it, black Africans could screw up a two car parade.

    It's time Europeans stand back and let black Africans die out which they will if left to their own devices.
    , @mcohen
    hi acey

    before the white man came to south africa blacks where walking around in animal skins,anyway if you really are bored why not head down to 4chan and play with the trolls.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Even conservative politicians use the same slipshod rhetoric about resources belonging to the people. What if it takes twice your tribe or nation's money GDP to discover and delineate the resource, then, when the rest of the world has developed enough to provide a market, it still costs four times as much again to establish the mines and the marketing?

    If you are not trolling you are a bad advertisement for African critical faculties and cognitive abilities. Except that Australian politicians and activists use similar rhetoric about "resources belonging to the Australian people" which is doubly stupid because the several states have jurisdiction and they of course have effectually sold the resources in return for royalties.

    , @abf
    They definitely migrated - Xhosa migrated to what's today South Africa and exterminated local bushmen in the process. Details: http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/national-suicide-yes-it-happens-look-at-the-xhosas/
  71. @Chuck
    That's some historic myopia, centuries of imperialism, colonialism, resource theft, cultural destruction, religious conversion, slavery, genocide, etc.,etc..

    These folk should thank their ancestors for sowing such positive and just seeds for the future and enjoy the harvest.

    Que white washing in 5,4,3,2,1...

    And that’s just the Zulus.

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  72. @Avery
    {...white nationalists who call for the ethnic cleansing and genocide of ethnic minorities in Europe....}


    For example?

    Well, I for one want to see the muslims ethnically cleansed from Europe, either peacefully or by force. Like the muslims have ethnically cleansed christians and jews from their lands, come to think of it. The “White Muslim Traditionalist” will have to go with his or her new people.

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  73. @Rurik

    If you think that the latter two groups should leave or assimilate, but are disgusted at those same demands being directed at Afrikaners, you’re a gigantic hypocrite.
     
    I agree

    Africa is Africa and belongs to its historic peoples. If the blacks of sub-Sahara Africa don't want the whites there, then the whites should leave. Come back to Europe or N. America or some other place that is now for all intents and purposes white and Western and European.

    It's too late for the Aborigines of Australia or the Amerindians of N. America (or S. America for that matter) to reassert their dominion over their ancient lands, due to facts on the ground. But they should be accommodated in every way, like the Amerindians are today in N. America, with sovereign lands, and a hands-off approach to their lifestyles, etc..

    For peace, people's ancient lands must be respected. The Moors had no business being in Spain. The whites in Africa are hated as oppressors and occupiers and perhaps should consider their days there numbered, but they should be welcomed back to Europe or it's hinterlands in Oceana or elsewhere with open arms. The Mexicans and Muslims in the US or Europe are guests, and should act like and be considered guests insofar as they respect the local cultures and laws. The second they don't, they should be sent packing.

    proximity + diversity = war

    now we need to talk about the white, European Jews in Palestine...

    Just one thing: The historic peoples of South Africa are white.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    Just one thing: The historic peoples of South Africa are white.
     
    then they should have defended their ancient lands from black rule with their last dying (white) breath

    [idiots]

    but they were too worried about whether or not Bruce Springsteen was going to play a concert, so in order to status whore and mollify the anti-white forces of Zio-England and the depraved West (Glob) they caved and said they'd live under black rule.

    pack your bags

    game over
    , @AceZwane
    Whites trolling as usual fortunately farm murders are doing gods work by cleansing them from African soil.
  74. @AceZwane
    Its not genocide it is simply taking what was stolen from us by white trash. Please take them, they are a cancer and don't want to leave despite all our best efforts.

    First get rid of the Zulu invaders, then we can talk.

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  75. @joef

    names of jews who went on trial with nelson mandela at the rivonia trial
     
    That may be true, but what does that have to do with Ilana Mercer herself? If so, is Thomas Sowell guilty for the actions of all radicalized African Americans (obviously he is not). We must be careful not to assign collective guilt to all members of a group. That is a tool of the Leftist radicals. I myself am just as guilty of it within my own comments re: African Americans (and as a result try to make distinctions by identifying the troublemakers as radical, etc).

    A person is guilty for his own actions exclusively, or the actions he helps to promote, not everyone else's within their member group. If we start subscribing collective guilt, we become no better than the ones we criticize (while the SJW laughs at us, that we are using their political tools to attack each other). The major difference between most of us and radical Afro Americans is that we want to make distinctions based on rational inquiry; Instead the radical Afros just want to hate. Civilization is built upon the former, not the later technique.

    Ilana Mercer is only responsible for what she has done in her own life, not for her father, nor for other leftist jews. Lets not fall into the same errors of the French Revolution and their leftist reign of terror. On balance, I rather trust someone who holds decent honorable values from another group, than someone within my own group who may be a deceitful malicious predator (and to identify them, I must make rational distinctions).

    Everything else is just distraction. It really comes down to what are the major problems that are detrimentally affecting this nation's future prospects. And our two worst problems confronting this nation is long term economic decline, and racial balkanization with African Americans.
    These are our two most fundamental hard problems that have the potential to cause the devolution of this nation into competing regional failed states.

    The canaries in the coal mine are already here in Stockton Cal, East St Louis Ill, Detroit, Gary Ind, Camden NJ, Newburgh NY & Bridgeport Conn (with the exception of Detroit, the smaller units collapse first). The only reason they have not collapsed into complete chaos is because the States and Federal system still exists (for now, until its their turn). We are slowly entering into a decline that will resemble 1977 squared, and compared to that, everything else is just intellectual mental exercise.

    In case you missed it, you’re now responsible for anything those of the same color skin have ever done. Individual responsibility is so over.

    Read More
  76. @Anonymous
    Acceptable, if you honkies pay back all the wealth looted, and blood money for all the mass murders, over the centuries.

    Deal?

    Do you vile racist f***ers even have that much money to spare?

    You’re just another sore loser, my nigga. A fat black loser with an unfounded sense of entitlement.

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  77. @AceZwane
    What an idiot. So Zulu, Xhosa and Sotho migrated to South Africa? You don't know what the hell you're talking about, its better to shut up your retarded mouth and learn some history. Boers built no major companies but instead milked the natural resources that rightly belonged to native Africans.

    The Zulu and Xhosa especially (although also somewhat true of the Sotho) are populations descendant from intermarriage of Bantus (Cameroon outmigration) and local Khoi San populations (the Khoi san may well have been part of an earlier outmigration from east Africa, and I once heard a claim suggesting a major linguistic divide between Damara/Nama on the one hand and !Kung on the other, possibly due to east African inmigration; there are apparently related linguistic groups in Tanzania). We may have milked the local resources, and especially in the Khoi San (old Cape) areas, the conquest was largely violent. We used the chaos of the wake of the Zulu empire to take the bulk of the Transvaal and Orange Freestate.

    I am admittedly a bit confused—the major companies were after all built by milking the resources, much as the European companies were, and likewise with major state support, going back e.g. to even the Heeren 17/VOC, Hudson Bay and similar companies. What point are you trying to make?

    Read More
    • Replies: @AceZwane
    Boers built no manufacturing companies and depended on selling black peoples resources and stealing their land to force them to work in the wretched mines for slave labour. They never built any technologically advanced companies that could compete on the world market, sort of like ans African Australia. You white bastards alse brought Indians and Asians in our country ruining it forever and I hope Muslims overrun Europe so you get a taste of your own medicine.
  78. @Eagle Eye
    *IF* it is true that Ilana Mercer's father was pro-ANC, then Ilana's own courage in speaking up for the people of South Africa (a forgotten country now that the ANC is firmly entrenched) is ALL THE MORE ADMIRABLE.

    It is true. It is why he exiled himself. So why you want to raise the point is a mystery.

    It does Ilana no favours, your and other similar comments on the thread just make it look like a different agenda at work.

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  79. South Africa is in the advanced stages of one of the Illuminati’s social experiments/takeover strategies. What’s happening exactly follows these Protocols from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion:
    http://JAHTruth.net/illumin PROTOCOL 4 – MATERIALISM REPLACES RELIGION
    5. … Then will the hour strike when, not for the sake of attaining the good, not even to win wealth, but solely out of hatred towards the privileged, the lower classes of the goyim will follow our lead against our rivals for power, the intellectuals of the goyim.

    Also, follow the money. South African farms are probably now being picked up for “pennies on the dollar” by the agents of the Illuminati/The Elders of Zion – The old Sanhedrin who had Jesus crucified.
    PROTOCOL 6 – TAKE-OVER TECHNIQUE
    7. To complete the ruin of the industry of the goyim, we shall bring; to the assistance of speculation, the luxury which we have developed among the goyim; that greedy demand for luxury which is swallowing up everything. We shall raise the rate of wages which, however, will not bring any advantage to the workers, for, at the same time, we shall produce a rise in prices of the first necessaries of life, alleging that it arises from the decline of agriculture and cattle-breeding: we shall further undermine; artfully and deeply; sources of production, by accustoming the workers to anarchy and to drunkenness, and, side by side therewith, taking all measures to extirpate from the face of the earth all the educated forces of the goyim.

    But they will fail in the end, as prophecied, but not before All South Africans (and the whole world actually) wake up to the fact that they are being played http://saindistress.wordpress.com:
    http://JAHTruth.net/kofk-free/Bible Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are NOT, but do LIE (Idumeans); behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

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  80. @Pericles
    Just one thing: The historic peoples of South Africa are white.

    Just one thing: The historic peoples of South Africa are white.

    then they should have defended their ancient lands from black rule with their last dying (white) breath

    [idiots]

    but they were too worried about whether or not Bruce Springsteen was going to play a concert, so in order to status whore and mollify the anti-white forces of Zio-England and the depraved West (Glob) they caved and said they’d live under black rule.

    pack your bags

    game over

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    • Replies: @mcohen
    johan meyer

    Cameroonian ? sure you don,t mean selfiemoonian

    http://www.turtlesa.com/migration.html



    In the early centuries in Africa there were three main groups of Bantu speaking peoples . The first group being the Equatorial and Interlacustrine people who lived in the area between the Great lakes of Africa. These people took their names from their fathers.

    The second group were the Central Bantu people who inhabited the central part of Africa from the Atlantic in the west to the Indian Ocean in the east. Their family names came from their mothers.

    The third group are the Southern Bantu who occupied the entire area to the south of the Central Bantu group. This group of people migrated southwards and arrived in South Africa in at least four large migrations which gave rise to the divisions between the peoples now currently living here. The various groupings are as follows: The Nguni, Sotho-Tswana,Tsonga and the Venda.
    , @Pericles
    Regrettable; consider that if they had held out 10-20 years more, South Africa could have allied with the Chinese instead and back to hell with the Great Satan and the Other Little Satan (UK).

    However, I'd like to add I'm sure you also strongly feel that their ancient lands must be respected regardless of such bad decisions. It just looks like you forgot to write that for the white people.
  81. @AceZwane
    What an idiot. So Zulu, Xhosa and Sotho migrated to South Africa? You don't know what the hell you're talking about, its better to shut up your retarded mouth and learn some history. Boers built no major companies but instead milked the natural resources that rightly belonged to native Africans.

    So Zulu, Xhosa and Sotho migrated to South Africa?

    No, Einstein. If you read my post I said there were pre-existing tribes, but all they did was fight, enslave and kill each other. But the Boers and other Europeans ended tribal warfare and through their productive farming methods and the introduction of medical care those tribes saw a massive increase in their population.

    If it wasn’t for the whites you’d still be wearing a bone in your nose and eating insects and weeds.

    You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, its better to shut up your retarded mouth and learn some history.

    Yeah, real men issue threats from behind a keyboard using a phony name. We’ll call you the keyboard coon.

    Boers built no major companies but instead milked the natural resources that rightly belonged to native Africans.

    White S. Africans created S. Africa’s economy and all of its commercial activities. In so doing they’d maximized the nation’s natural resources which led to the highest standards of living in all of Africa and attracted blacks from other parts of the African continent.

    Thanks to the genocidal ANC and black supremacist rule they are starting to screw everything up. Come to think of it, black Africans could screw up a two car parade.

    It’s time Europeans stand back and let black Africans die out which they will if left to their own devices.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    Huh? Much as I find AceZwane(Kazi) irritating, your post is full of nonsense.

    First off, both the Khoi-San and Bantu ethnic groups had metallurgy, with the Khoi San working and mining copper and the Bantu working and mining iron (hence the Bantu expansion from Cameroon); the Dutch would buy copper from the Khoi San groups, especially around what is now Kimberley. Secondly, traded goods have been found in archeological digs dating from more than a thousand years ago (e.g. Gauteng area), of Persian origin---the Bantu started entering the region about 3000 years ago. Thirdly, both the Khoi-San (those that weren't forced to revert to hunter-gatherer status by Bantu expansion) and Bantu engaged in animal husbandry, and the Bantu also developed crops including cereals, e.g. Sorghum (a big part of the malnutrition in sub-Saharan Africa is precisely because of the substitution of Maize for Sorghum, and there is a large movement back). The western mining companies (in particular, Canadian) that set up shop in African countries (Canada runs more than half the commercial mines in Africa iirc; see Engler's Canada in Africa) insist that the local governments stop the mining activities by local ethnic groups.

    The labour migrations from neighbouring countries were in large part because of particular trading arrangements set up by the west. The Soviet famine of 1932 was in that respect similar (west declining to buy Soviet gold, insisting on Soviet wheat, hence famine from Ukraine to Siberia, and from the Caucasus to Arkhangelsk). Another similar matter is the slave labour mining under Rwandan militia in eastern DRC, of Coltan. The main effect of the use of miners from neighbouring countries in the mines in northern Orange Freestate and southern Transvaal, given the apartheid relations, was the spread of HIV---mainly male labourers were allowed, and prostitution was not substantially suppressed. Upon returning to their own countries, they brought HIV back.

    Oh, and the Bantu ethnic groups that he lists are the product of intermarriage between Bantu (Cameroonian) interlopers and (Khoi San) locals.

    , @mcohen
    i love it "keyboard coon".....why not settle for kk .."keyboard kaffir" or go all the way and reach out for the mighty KKK....kentucky keyboard kaffir.goes well with fried chicken

    ace zwane.....did it again
    , @AceZwane

    No, Einstein. If you read my post I said there were pre-existing tribes, but all they did was fight, enslave and kill each other. But the Boers and other Europeans ended tribal warfare and through their productive farming methods and the introduction of medical care those tribes saw a massive increase in their population.
     
    More lies there was never slavery in Southern Africa and Europeans fought just as much as Africans so spare me your peaceful whites drivel. So they helped us by stealing all our best land?Boers didn't create any of that they adopted it from someone else through trade. Why would I wear a bone in my nose, or eat insects again?

    White S. Africans created S. Africa’s economy and all of its commercial activities. In so doing they’d maximized the nation’s natural resources which led to the highest standards of living in all of Africa and attracted blacks from other parts of the African continent.
     
    They didn't create shit, they simply exploited the country's natural resources and stole our land forcing us to work in mines. Genocide is appropriate response in this instance and I support farm murders.

    Whites been predicting the fall of South Africa since forever and we're still waiting for it. Let Europeans stand back and see where they dump their subsidized goods to. Were doing fine for millenia without white cancer and will continue to do so.
    , @Achmed E. Newman

    If it wasn't for the whites you'd still be wearing a bone in your nose and eating insects and weeds.
     
    What do you mean? He's got a bone in his nose. He's only not eating insects and weeds because of the WIC program.
  82. @KenH

    So Zulu, Xhosa and Sotho migrated to South Africa?
     
    No, Einstein. If you read my post I said there were pre-existing tribes, but all they did was fight, enslave and kill each other. But the Boers and other Europeans ended tribal warfare and through their productive farming methods and the introduction of medical care those tribes saw a massive increase in their population.

    If it wasn't for the whites you'd still be wearing a bone in your nose and eating insects and weeds.

    You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, its better to shut up your retarded mouth and learn some history.
     
    Yeah, real men issue threats from behind a keyboard using a phony name. We'll call you the keyboard coon.

    Boers built no major companies but instead milked the natural resources that rightly belonged to native Africans.
     
    White S. Africans created S. Africa's economy and all of its commercial activities. In so doing they'd maximized the nation's natural resources which led to the highest standards of living in all of Africa and attracted blacks from other parts of the African continent.

    Thanks to the genocidal ANC and black supremacist rule they are starting to screw everything up. Come to think of it, black Africans could screw up a two car parade.

    It's time Europeans stand back and let black Africans die out which they will if left to their own devices.

    Huh? Much as I find AceZwane(Kazi) irritating, your post is full of nonsense.

    First off, both the Khoi-San and Bantu ethnic groups had metallurgy, with the Khoi San working and mining copper and the Bantu working and mining iron (hence the Bantu expansion from Cameroon); the Dutch would buy copper from the Khoi San groups, especially around what is now Kimberley. Secondly, traded goods have been found in archeological digs dating from more than a thousand years ago (e.g. Gauteng area), of Persian origin—the Bantu started entering the region about 3000 years ago. Thirdly, both the Khoi-San (those that weren’t forced to revert to hunter-gatherer status by Bantu expansion) and Bantu engaged in animal husbandry, and the Bantu also developed crops including cereals, e.g. Sorghum (a big part of the malnutrition in sub-Saharan Africa is precisely because of the substitution of Maize for Sorghum, and there is a large movement back). The western mining companies (in particular, Canadian) that set up shop in African countries (Canada runs more than half the commercial mines in Africa iirc; see Engler’s Canada in Africa) insist that the local governments stop the mining activities by local ethnic groups.

    The labour migrations from neighbouring countries were in large part because of particular trading arrangements set up by the west. The Soviet famine of 1932 was in that respect similar (west declining to buy Soviet gold, insisting on Soviet wheat, hence famine from Ukraine to Siberia, and from the Caucasus to Arkhangelsk). Another similar matter is the slave labour mining under Rwandan militia in eastern DRC, of Coltan. The main effect of the use of miners from neighbouring countries in the mines in northern Orange Freestate and southern Transvaal, given the apartheid relations, was the spread of HIV—mainly male labourers were allowed, and prostitution was not substantially suppressed. Upon returning to their own countries, they brought HIV back.

    Oh, and the Bantu ethnic groups that he lists are the product of intermarriage between Bantu (Cameroonian) interlopers and (Khoi San) locals.

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    • Replies: @KenH

    Huh? Much as I find AceZwane(Kazi) irritating, your post is full of nonsense.
     
    And I could say the same about yours which is filled with distortions and fabricated facts. The pre-existing black tribes of S. Africa did not have metallurgy. There is no evidence that they ever conceived of this concept or had the ability to smelt metals such as the Vikings did in the 8th and 9th century. There is no evidence that they knew what iron or mining was. They were very primitive and warlike hunter-gatherers.

    S. Africa didn't start producing gold, platimun, coal and other base metals that are in world demand until the whites arrived.

    The Soviet famine, or Holodomer, had nothing to do with the West refusing to buy Soviet gold. It was an engineered famine by Stalin and carried out by Jewish commissars like Lazar Kaganovich to break Ukrainian nationalism and independence.
  83. @Johan Meyer
    It was both IMF and World Bank, and it was somewhat voluntary on his part.


    The watershed of ZANU's abandonment of a socialist program came in the early 1990s when the government accepted an Economic Structural Adjustment Program (ESAP) designed by the international Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank. The measures of this program (ending subsidies, diminishing protectionism, deflating the currency, "downsizing" social and economic programs) favored transnational companies and the economic and political elites of Zimbabwe (aid and loans were contingent on accepting ESAP) at the great expense of the poorer segments of the population. By the time ESAP had been instituted, state cultural nationalism using Shona emblems had declined substantially. ... By the early 1990s, the honeymoon of the independence period between the masses and the state had been over for several years. The effects of droughts of the early 1990s and the effects of ESAP and other events led to major economic recession and hardship...
     
    Note also that the apartheid government, and to some extent the Rhodesian government, were far more socialist to their own populations than what the post-white governments were.

    Thanks, interesting, (not least your last par. – see below)

    Talk about “The Law of Unintended Consequences”!

    I recall getting a laugh at the expense of a senior politician at a meeting about 25 years ago when he extolled precedents from his glory days in the early 70s as reasons for objecting to some Dry/EconomicRationalist policy. I just interjected “But we were all socialists then!” The laughter clearly showed that mental fashion had changed.

    It would be interesting to make a worldwide and multi decade comparison of how long it takes (and the necessary conditions) for ideas to take hold and dominate, how long inertia can maintain them and how quickly an epoch can arrive. For the whole of the post WW2 period till the early 80s a version of Keynesianism that Keynes would have repudiated gave politicians comfort that they could win
    elections by borrowing and spending and promising welfare. I recall it reaching its doomed peak in New Zealand under a right of centre pragmatist about 1979. It was then magnificently, if not permanently, fixed under a Labor government. Shortly afterwards Australia’s socialist-cod-Keynesian hangover was ended by a Labor government (supported by the Opposition leader who was later a longserving PM but then a typical backslider for votes).

    Interesting tbat Rhodesian and South African socialism was, presumably, less to do with buying votes than buying peace.

    So I see, and didn’t know before, that the dominant economic ideas crudely deployed seem to have done a lot of unintended harm in the 90s in southern Africa, the former USSR, and perhaps parts of Asia during the Asian financial crisis of ?1997. Not applied in thd US of course!

    BTW where is your quote from?

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    The quote is from the link I gave, page 23 of Nationalists, Cosmopolitans and Popular Music in Zimbabwe. Off hand, I don't have a good reference handy, and I don't recall academics addressing the questions of the SAPs---I learned about SAPs from a street level opposition (to IMF) group in the 90s, and I've lost most of my references years ago, although this reference looks promising---Dani Rodrik always has something interesting to say.

    The larger problem with the economy is that investment is always needed in scientific and industrial research, whether by the state or by private (capitalist firm or cooperative) means, yet the return on investment only begins after four or more years (delays in feedback generally lead to unstable control systems, and a Bode plot should make it obvious; it might not be as obvious with a root-locus graph; if you are not familiar with control systems, you can find Modern Control Systems by Dorf and Bishop, though you'll need a background in calculus, Fourier and Laplace analysis). Hence funding bodies tend to cut off funding (e.g. firms spin off their research divisions, declare a profit, and run well for half a decade or so).

    The problem is even worse in infrastructure spending, as there is no return on investment---the losses manifest themselves elsewhere in the economy when infrastructure is not maintained. Africa did itself a fair bit of harm by not maintaining and replacing colonial infrastructure, but the US (and Russia---Soviet legacy is in need of some repair and replacement, from what I've heard, though they are much ahead of many other post-Soviet states) are on the same track. At some point, money / resources must be spent if things are to continue at all, and that will be spent without a direct return on investment---toll roads tend to be avoided, so I don't see how it will be done without taxation.

    The worst infrastructure problem IMAO is still lead paint, and even poorly performed cleanups can further ruin countries. To be spending money on "welfare" (or "disability" because welfare has been cut too much so people feign disabilities) when such huge labour intensive work remains urgent, is unmitigated idiocy. The welfare state may have been popular, but it was foolish enough that the Soviets rejected it---there were prison sentences for able bodied people who declined to work.
    , @Johan Meyer
    I should also be more clear. By socialist, I mean state enterprise; in the US, it largely corresponded with state-funded enterprise, in particular in the military sector (Northrop, Boeing, and company, for example). South Africa used to have a huge state enterprise sector up until 1979. While there were many welfare state efforts (anti-poverty efforts) by the white African states, they generally were not welfare payment efforts, as much as infrastructure development and public health efforts, for example building housing and highways (my father was born in a shanty during WWII, and his parents only got a house when he was 3; his father was a prison guard, and his mother was at different times a printer's assistant, guard in a woman's prison, and housewife; his father started in the work crews that built national highways prior to becoming a prison guard). The fight against Kwashiorkor among whites is another example.

    Moreover, most of the anti-poverty and state enterprise efforts were not extended to blacks until the late 70s, which were by then hampered by de facto internal war, though it could be argued that their extension to blacks was on account of the brewing internal war.

  84. At the White House site I started an online petition to recognize Afrikaners as a persecuted group with prioritized refugee processing, like the fast-tracking of immigration by Soviet Jews in the seventies. It got about a hundred signatures in a month. This is less than I would expect if I tried it away from keyboard around three blocks. This message must get beyond the gates and gatekeepers that have censored it. We have got to batter and guilt-trip the selective-empathy media controllers and the self-appointed arbitrators of what is and is not a tragedy.
    There is absolutely nothing about this in American media, but there are extended babblings about what remarkably stupid people think being black feels like (normally offered at the same time they reassure us that there is no point in trying to understand what being black really feels like). There is snide and totally unjustified smugness. There is inexplicably triumphalism over the doddering fool who merely won the election, who is really very unattractive if you ignore the top shelf female company, and no good at business once you get past the ziggurats of cash and gratuitous gold plating. There is a maddeningly fake inquiry in which they pretend to be open to new ideas while demanding that some Trump supporter, properly introduced as an inbred relic, scientifically prove things that should already be known beyond dispute — and when he cannot, well, you know, that just reaffirms our self-concept: us as reasonable people who listen, them as inarticulate morons who stumble over the details of phantom crime sprees we’ve never heard of. And if we’ve never heard of them, and the only source is that inbred relic, well, there’s no need to waste time seeing if there’s anything to it.

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  85. @Wizard of Oz
    Thanks, interesting, (not least your last par. - see below)

    Talk about "The Law of Unintended Consequences"!

    I recall getting a laugh at the expense of a senior politician at a meeting about 25 years ago when he extolled precedents from his glory days in the early 70s as reasons for objecting to some Dry/EconomicRationalist policy. I just interjected "But we were all socialists then!" The laughter clearly showed that mental fashion had changed.

    It would be interesting to make a worldwide and multi decade comparison of how long it takes (and the necessary conditions) for ideas to take hold and dominate, how long inertia can maintain them and how quickly an epoch can arrive. For the whole of the post WW2 period till the early 80s a version of Keynesianism that Keynes would have repudiated gave politicians comfort that they could win
    elections by borrowing and spending and promising welfare. I recall it reaching its doomed peak in New Zealand under a right of centre pragmatist about 1979. It was then magnificently, if not permanently, fixed under a Labor government. Shortly afterwards Australia's socialist-cod-Keynesian hangover was ended by a Labor government (supported by the Opposition leader who was later a longserving PM but then a typical backslider for votes).

    Interesting tbat Rhodesian and South African socialism was, presumably, less to do with buying votes than buying peace.

    So I see, and didn't know before, that the dominant economic ideas crudely deployed seem to have done a lot of unintended harm in the 90s in southern Africa, the former USSR, and perhaps parts of Asia during the Asian financial crisis of ?1997. Not applied in thd US of course!

    BTW where is your quote from?

    The quote is from the link I gave, page 23 of Nationalists, Cosmopolitans and Popular Music in Zimbabwe. Off hand, I don’t have a good reference handy, and I don’t recall academics addressing the questions of the SAPs—I learned about SAPs from a street level opposition (to IMF) group in the 90s, and I’ve lost most of my references years ago, although this reference looks promising—Dani Rodrik always has something interesting to say.

    The larger problem with the economy is that investment is always needed in scientific and industrial research, whether by the state or by private (capitalist firm or cooperative) means, yet the return on investment only begins after four or more years (delays in feedback generally lead to unstable control systems, and a Bode plot should make it obvious; it might not be as obvious with a root-locus graph; if you are not familiar with control systems, you can find Modern Control Systems by Dorf and Bishop, though you’ll need a background in calculus, Fourier and Laplace analysis). Hence funding bodies tend to cut off funding (e.g. firms spin off their research divisions, declare a profit, and run well for half a decade or so).

    The problem is even worse in infrastructure spending, as there is no return on investment—the losses manifest themselves elsewhere in the economy when infrastructure is not maintained. Africa did itself a fair bit of harm by not maintaining and replacing colonial infrastructure, but the US (and Russia—Soviet legacy is in need of some repair and replacement, from what I’ve heard, though they are much ahead of many other post-Soviet states) are on the same track. At some point, money / resources must be spent if things are to continue at all, and that will be spent without a direct return on investment—toll roads tend to be avoided, so I don’t see how it will be done without taxation.

    The worst infrastructure problem IMAO is still lead paint, and even poorly performed cleanups can further ruin countries. To be spending money on “welfare” (or “disability” because welfare has been cut too much so people feign disabilities) when such huge labour intensive work remains urgent, is unmitigated idiocy. The welfare state may have been popular, but it was foolish enough that the Soviets rejected it—there were prison sentences for able bodied people who declined to work.

    Read More
  86. @Wizard of Oz
    Thanks, interesting, (not least your last par. - see below)

    Talk about "The Law of Unintended Consequences"!

    I recall getting a laugh at the expense of a senior politician at a meeting about 25 years ago when he extolled precedents from his glory days in the early 70s as reasons for objecting to some Dry/EconomicRationalist policy. I just interjected "But we were all socialists then!" The laughter clearly showed that mental fashion had changed.

    It would be interesting to make a worldwide and multi decade comparison of how long it takes (and the necessary conditions) for ideas to take hold and dominate, how long inertia can maintain them and how quickly an epoch can arrive. For the whole of the post WW2 period till the early 80s a version of Keynesianism that Keynes would have repudiated gave politicians comfort that they could win
    elections by borrowing and spending and promising welfare. I recall it reaching its doomed peak in New Zealand under a right of centre pragmatist about 1979. It was then magnificently, if not permanently, fixed under a Labor government. Shortly afterwards Australia's socialist-cod-Keynesian hangover was ended by a Labor government (supported by the Opposition leader who was later a longserving PM but then a typical backslider for votes).

    Interesting tbat Rhodesian and South African socialism was, presumably, less to do with buying votes than buying peace.

    So I see, and didn't know before, that the dominant economic ideas crudely deployed seem to have done a lot of unintended harm in the 90s in southern Africa, the former USSR, and perhaps parts of Asia during the Asian financial crisis of ?1997. Not applied in thd US of course!

    BTW where is your quote from?

    I should also be more clear. By socialist, I mean state enterprise; in the US, it largely corresponded with state-funded enterprise, in particular in the military sector (Northrop, Boeing, and company, for example). South Africa used to have a huge state enterprise sector up until 1979. While there were many welfare state efforts (anti-poverty efforts) by the white African states, they generally were not welfare payment efforts, as much as infrastructure development and public health efforts, for example building housing and highways (my father was born in a shanty during WWII, and his parents only got a house when he was 3; his father was a prison guard, and his mother was at different times a printer’s assistant, guard in a woman’s prison, and housewife; his father started in the work crews that built national highways prior to becoming a prison guard). The fight against Kwashiorkor among whites is another example.

    Moreover, most of the anti-poverty and state enterprise efforts were not extended to blacks until the late 70s, which were by then hampered by de facto internal war, though it could be argued that their extension to blacks was on account of the brewing internal war.

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  87. @AceZwane
    What an idiot. So Zulu, Xhosa and Sotho migrated to South Africa? You don't know what the hell you're talking about, its better to shut up your retarded mouth and learn some history. Boers built no major companies but instead milked the natural resources that rightly belonged to native Africans.

    hi acey

    before the white man came to south africa blacks where walking around in animal skins,anyway if you really are bored why not head down to 4chan and play with the trolls.

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  88. @Rurik

    Just one thing: The historic peoples of South Africa are white.
     
    then they should have defended their ancient lands from black rule with their last dying (white) breath

    [idiots]

    but they were too worried about whether or not Bruce Springsteen was going to play a concert, so in order to status whore and mollify the anti-white forces of Zio-England and the depraved West (Glob) they caved and said they'd live under black rule.

    pack your bags

    game over

    johan meyer

    Cameroonian ? sure you don,t mean selfiemoonian

    http://www.turtlesa.com/migration.html

    In the early centuries in Africa there were three main groups of Bantu speaking peoples . The first group being the Equatorial and Interlacustrine people who lived in the area between the Great lakes of Africa. These people took their names from their fathers.

    The second group were the Central Bantu people who inhabited the central part of Africa from the Atlantic in the west to the Indian Ocean in the east. Their family names came from their mothers.

    The third group are the Southern Bantu who occupied the entire area to the south of the Central Bantu group. This group of people migrated southwards and arrived in South Africa in at least four large migrations which gave rise to the divisions between the peoples now currently living here. The various groupings are as follows: The Nguni, Sotho-Tswana,Tsonga and the Venda.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    Flaky in the extreme, and irrelevant to the extent accurate. Firstly, Cameroon and environs is a question of time depth; the estimate is 3k years ago---yes, other divisions would have developed in the interim, but that is irrelevant to ultimate origin. Secondly, the notion that the Khoi San were migrating southward along the west coast is laughable in the extreme---the closest related groups are in Tanzania. A far more likely migration would be northward, into current Angola. That nonsense in your link is likely to justify the presence of sucking consonants ('clicks') in the Nguni and other southern African Bantu languages, with a terra nullius fantasy, which seems to be part of the colonial heritage.

    Finally, to make great inferences about migrations based on where people live post-Zulu empire and post-Boer republics, is indicative of either dishonesty, or intellectual deficiency.
  89. @KenH

    So Zulu, Xhosa and Sotho migrated to South Africa?
     
    No, Einstein. If you read my post I said there were pre-existing tribes, but all they did was fight, enslave and kill each other. But the Boers and other Europeans ended tribal warfare and through their productive farming methods and the introduction of medical care those tribes saw a massive increase in their population.

    If it wasn't for the whites you'd still be wearing a bone in your nose and eating insects and weeds.

    You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, its better to shut up your retarded mouth and learn some history.
     
    Yeah, real men issue threats from behind a keyboard using a phony name. We'll call you the keyboard coon.

    Boers built no major companies but instead milked the natural resources that rightly belonged to native Africans.
     
    White S. Africans created S. Africa's economy and all of its commercial activities. In so doing they'd maximized the nation's natural resources which led to the highest standards of living in all of Africa and attracted blacks from other parts of the African continent.

    Thanks to the genocidal ANC and black supremacist rule they are starting to screw everything up. Come to think of it, black Africans could screw up a two car parade.

    It's time Europeans stand back and let black Africans die out which they will if left to their own devices.

    i love it “keyboard coon”…..why not settle for kk ..”keyboard kaffir” or go all the way and reach out for the mighty KKK….kentucky keyboard kaffir.goes well with fried chicken

    ace zwane…..did it again

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  90. @AceZwane
    What an idiot. So Zulu, Xhosa and Sotho migrated to South Africa? You don't know what the hell you're talking about, its better to shut up your retarded mouth and learn some history. Boers built no major companies but instead milked the natural resources that rightly belonged to native Africans.

    Even conservative politicians use the same slipshod rhetoric about resources belonging to the people. What if it takes twice your tribe or nation’s money GDP to discover and delineate the resource, then, when the rest of the world has developed enough to provide a market, it still costs four times as much again to establish the mines and the marketing?

    If you are not trolling you are a bad advertisement for African critical faculties and cognitive abilities. Except that Australian politicians and activists use similar rhetoric about “resources belonging to the Australian people” which is doubly stupid because the several states have jurisdiction and they of course have effectually sold the resources in return for royalties.

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  91. I am a Afrikaans white mother with a 6 year old daughter in South Africa.
    I was born here, work 2 jobs, live on the breadline AND fear for my life and my child’s daily!
    You only need to type ‘kill the boers’ / ‘kill whites in SA’ etc. into your FACEBOOK search and see what is being planned for us.
    I am of Dutch and French decend, but can not afford to emigrate back to where ‘we’ Afrikaners came from.
    We are caring, loyal, hard working.
    We are being slaughtered in our beds at night where we are suppose to be safe..our dogs are poisoned 1st and then the break-in..always by more than 1 person, so you don’t have a chance to defend yourself.
    WE NEED YOU TO START STANDING UP FOR US PLEASE!
    DRAW UP PETITIONS
    MAKE PEOPLE AWARE
    PUT IT IN THE MEDIA
    I am begging you.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    Economic migrant. Erken dit, toe wees eerlik. The fact that you have internet means that you are with high probability urban, and a large section of the blacks with whom you have interactions will be foreigners. And funnier---living on the breadline (poverty line, for other readers), yet can afford internet and dogs; spare me. Hell, my brother was living in one of the more dangerous formerly coloured areas in Cape Town, and was not bothered, despite renting a room in someone's backyard.

    I did the two facebook searches you suggested. The first brings up people complaining about Zuma's disgusting song, which he sang in public in 2012, during a function. No new performances, to my knowledge. The second is a protected facebook group, that does not allow one to see the discussion without first signing up.

    I'll make two comments. First off, because policing has collapsed in South Africa, many criminals do go free (albeit not the 92 in a hundred suggested by the OP). This also has the consequence that white South African criminals go undetected. Abroad, white South Africans have a certain notoriety for excess criminality, compared to the local (abroad) whites, and often other minorities as well, although political correctness restricts such observations to e.g. police detectives. Secondly, the fact that you seek an automatic asylum suggests that you lack marketable skill sets, and will end up being a burden abroad. The market for the kind of cottage industry in which underskilled South African whites tend to partake in order to make ends meet, is generally already saturated abroad, and people prefer in any case to purchase lower price industrial manufacture, rather than cottage industry manufacture.
  92. @roo_ster
    TG wrote:
    "And South Africa was relatively prosperous, even with apartheid. "

    I would suggest SA was prosperous because of apartheid, given empirical observation since the ending of apartheid.

    South Africa is prosperous because of its natural resources retard.

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    • Replies: @Ed
    Lots of resources sloshing around in the Congo, it's GDP per capita is around $500. Rocks in the ground are just rocks in the ground unless you have the brains to utilize them, retard.
  93. @Pericles
    Just one thing: The historic peoples of South Africa are white.

    Whites trolling as usual fortunately farm murders are doing gods work by cleansing them from African soil.

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    • Replies: @Pericles
    Oh, what god would that be, Ace? Don't forget that the white farmers are what keeps the Tokoloshes away.
    , @Eagle Eye

    ... fortunately farm murders are doing gods work by cleansing [whites] from African soil.
     
    Lemme guess - Black Studies major, media studies minor, with classes in expressive dance?
  94. @Johan Meyer
    The Zulu and Xhosa especially (although also somewhat true of the Sotho) are populations descendant from intermarriage of Bantus (Cameroon outmigration) and local Khoi San populations (the Khoi san may well have been part of an earlier outmigration from east Africa, and I once heard a claim suggesting a major linguistic divide between Damara/Nama on the one hand and !Kung on the other, possibly due to east African inmigration; there are apparently related linguistic groups in Tanzania). We may have milked the local resources, and especially in the Khoi San (old Cape) areas, the conquest was largely violent. We used the chaos of the wake of the Zulu empire to take the bulk of the Transvaal and Orange Freestate.

    I am admittedly a bit confused---the major companies were after all built by milking the resources, much as the European companies were, and likewise with major state support, going back e.g. to even the Heeren 17/VOC, Hudson Bay and similar companies. What point are you trying to make?

    Boers built no manufacturing companies and depended on selling black peoples resources and stealing their land to force them to work in the wretched mines for slave labour. They never built any technologically advanced companies that could compete on the world market, sort of like ans African Australia. You white bastards alse brought Indians and Asians in our country ruining it forever and I hope Muslims overrun Europe so you get a taste of your own medicine.

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    • Replies: @abf
    "black peoples resources" - there is no such thing in general really, as blacks do not produce any resources to speak of. Well, some food (and inefficiently at that). Unless you count what you sit on as your "resource".
    , @Johan Meyer
    We didn't put you in our mines; we (our government) put you in Anglo-American (both the company, and the ethno-nationalist ownership structure) mines. As well as our own. Perhaps you have forgotten that a big part of what caused our racial nationalism to grow was competition in the mining labour sector. Have you forgotten the white miner strikes on the rand (e.g. the one for which de la Rey called in the airforce to bomb the white mine workers), including against bringing black peasants to become mine workers? My one great grandfather was a coal miner (labourer) on the rand into the 1970s. Perhaps you have never been involved in blue collar labour.

    Are you perhaps a comfortable middle class individual, trying to make up for your comfort by shouting nationalist slogans? Now that you've gentrified the poorer white neighbourhoods after the end of the group areas act (Parow west used to be rather poor, for example, when it still was majority white), you seek something else to own, and rather than face the reality that your FIRE sector investments do nothing to develop the real economy, hence the continued poverty of the majority. I always found it telling to read the analysis of Steve Biko about middle class blacks being forced by apartheid to live with their poorer coethnics, but his suggestion that that lead to nationalist consciousness was always dubious---your type of nationalism is always a response to failure of the economy.

    You are the stereotype of the new nationalist elite discussed by Fanon. Oh, and about your complaints about Indians and other Asians, may it please you to know that Nigeria and Uganda kicked out their Indian populations; both proceeded to slaughter their own African ethnic populations, both with western support, and the former also with Soviet support (Biafra in the case of Nigeria, and the Nilo-Saharan ethnic groups in the case of Uganda). Nigeria is developing now, but they've had to swallow their pride, and bring in some foreigners. And Nigeria (and Kenya, including Bantu and Nilo-Saharan ethnic groups) have started the process of developing their own technological skillsets, including programming shops. Incidentally, so have we Afrikaners, and have some coloured-owned companies. I would not be surprised to find South African Bantus that have done the same, but I am confident that you are not involved in such enterprises.
    , @Sam J.
    "...Boers built no manufacturing companies..."

    They built nuclear power plants(they did a lot of work on gas reactors), nuclear weapons, tritium gun sights, armored personal carriers, etc.. They built a lot of quite sophisticated stuff for the small population they had.
  95. @KenH

    So Zulu, Xhosa and Sotho migrated to South Africa?
     
    No, Einstein. If you read my post I said there were pre-existing tribes, but all they did was fight, enslave and kill each other. But the Boers and other Europeans ended tribal warfare and through their productive farming methods and the introduction of medical care those tribes saw a massive increase in their population.

    If it wasn't for the whites you'd still be wearing a bone in your nose and eating insects and weeds.

    You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, its better to shut up your retarded mouth and learn some history.
     
    Yeah, real men issue threats from behind a keyboard using a phony name. We'll call you the keyboard coon.

    Boers built no major companies but instead milked the natural resources that rightly belonged to native Africans.
     
    White S. Africans created S. Africa's economy and all of its commercial activities. In so doing they'd maximized the nation's natural resources which led to the highest standards of living in all of Africa and attracted blacks from other parts of the African continent.

    Thanks to the genocidal ANC and black supremacist rule they are starting to screw everything up. Come to think of it, black Africans could screw up a two car parade.

    It's time Europeans stand back and let black Africans die out which they will if left to their own devices.

    No, Einstein. If you read my post I said there were pre-existing tribes, but all they did was fight, enslave and kill each other. But the Boers and other Europeans ended tribal warfare and through their productive farming methods and the introduction of medical care those tribes saw a massive increase in their population.

    More lies there was never slavery in Southern Africa and Europeans fought just as much as Africans so spare me your peaceful whites drivel. So they helped us by stealing all our best land?Boers didn’t create any of that they adopted it from someone else through trade. Why would I wear a bone in my nose, or eat insects again?

    White S. Africans created S. Africa’s economy and all of its commercial activities. In so doing they’d maximized the nation’s natural resources which led to the highest standards of living in all of Africa and attracted blacks from other parts of the African continent.

    They didn’t create shit, they simply exploited the country’s natural resources and stole our land forcing us to work in mines. Genocide is appropriate response in this instance and I support farm murders.

    Whites been predicting the fall of South Africa since forever and we’re still waiting for it. Let Europeans stand back and see where they dump their subsidized goods to. Were doing fine for millenia without white cancer and will continue to do so.

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    • Replies: @KenH

    They didn’t create shit, they simply exploited the country’s natural resources and stole our land forcing us to work in mines.
     
    LOL. No, that's just what you want to believe to justify your bestial racial hatred. The ANC is forcing you to work in the mines now, but that's ok because they're black supremacist just like you.

    You could save yourself some time and just respond that "We wuz kangs!" and "Da white man is da blue eyed devil". It must really suck to be an 80 IQ African, but then, ignorance is bliss.

    Here's the state of the rapidly worsening S. Africa under the rabidly black supremacist ANC. The journalist is an anti-apartheid, pajama boy white liberal, so don't even try to accuse him of bias:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/11684492/South-Africas-long-walk-to-decline.html

    , @Sam J.
    "...They didn’t create shit, they simply exploited the country’s natural resources and stole our land forcing us to work in mines..."

    This idea is difficult to support as there was not much of anything in Southern Africa before they got there. The same case can be made of Whites in Zimbabwe creating wealth out of raw land that wasn't used at all before Whites got there. Now that most are gone it's rapidly going back to what it was before they got there.
  96. @Mao Cheng Ji
    I have the impression that the main problem in South Africa is horrendous levels of poverty and inequality. All the rest are just symptoms of that.

    Thanks for the stale Marxist meme. Come back again if you ever learn to think for yourself.

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  97. @mcohen
    johan meyer

    Cameroonian ? sure you don,t mean selfiemoonian

    http://www.turtlesa.com/migration.html



    In the early centuries in Africa there were three main groups of Bantu speaking peoples . The first group being the Equatorial and Interlacustrine people who lived in the area between the Great lakes of Africa. These people took their names from their fathers.

    The second group were the Central Bantu people who inhabited the central part of Africa from the Atlantic in the west to the Indian Ocean in the east. Their family names came from their mothers.

    The third group are the Southern Bantu who occupied the entire area to the south of the Central Bantu group. This group of people migrated southwards and arrived in South Africa in at least four large migrations which gave rise to the divisions between the peoples now currently living here. The various groupings are as follows: The Nguni, Sotho-Tswana,Tsonga and the Venda.

    Flaky in the extreme, and irrelevant to the extent accurate. Firstly, Cameroon and environs is a question of time depth; the estimate is 3k years ago—yes, other divisions would have developed in the interim, but that is irrelevant to ultimate origin. Secondly, the notion that the Khoi San were migrating southward along the west coast is laughable in the extreme—the closest related groups are in Tanzania. A far more likely migration would be northward, into current Angola. That nonsense in your link is likely to justify the presence of sucking consonants (‘clicks’) in the Nguni and other southern African Bantu languages, with a terra nullius fantasy, which seems to be part of the colonial heritage.

    Finally, to make great inferences about migrations based on where people live post-Zulu empire and post-Boer republics, is indicative of either dishonesty, or intellectual deficiency.

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    • Replies: @mcohen
    produce proof that south african black tribes all came from the cameroon

    a link will do
  98. @H from SA
    I am a Afrikaans white mother with a 6 year old daughter in South Africa.
    I was born here, work 2 jobs, live on the breadline AND fear for my life and my child's daily!
    You only need to type 'kill the boers' / 'kill whites in SA' etc. into your FACEBOOK search and see what is being planned for us.
    I am of Dutch and French decend, but can not afford to emigrate back to where 'we' Afrikaners came from.
    We are caring, loyal, hard working.
    We are being slaughtered in our beds at night where we are suppose to be safe..our dogs are poisoned 1st and then the break-in..always by more than 1 person, so you don't have a chance to defend yourself.
    WE NEED YOU TO START STANDING UP FOR US PLEASE!
    DRAW UP PETITIONS
    MAKE PEOPLE AWARE
    PUT IT IN THE MEDIA
    I am begging you.

    Economic migrant. Erken dit, toe wees eerlik. The fact that you have internet means that you are with high probability urban, and a large section of the blacks with whom you have interactions will be foreigners. And funnier—living on the breadline (poverty line, for other readers), yet can afford internet and dogs; spare me. Hell, my brother was living in one of the more dangerous formerly coloured areas in Cape Town, and was not bothered, despite renting a room in someone’s backyard.

    I did the two facebook searches you suggested. The first brings up people complaining about Zuma’s disgusting song, which he sang in public in 2012, during a function. No new performances, to my knowledge. The second is a protected facebook group, that does not allow one to see the discussion without first signing up.

    I’ll make two comments. First off, because policing has collapsed in South Africa, many criminals do go free (albeit not the 92 in a hundred suggested by the OP). This also has the consequence that white South African criminals go undetected. Abroad, white South Africans have a certain notoriety for excess criminality, compared to the local (abroad) whites, and often other minorities as well, although political correctness restricts such observations to e.g. police detectives. Secondly, the fact that you seek an automatic asylum suggests that you lack marketable skill sets, and will end up being a burden abroad. The market for the kind of cottage industry in which underskilled South African whites tend to partake in order to make ends meet, is generally already saturated abroad, and people prefer in any case to purchase lower price industrial manufacture, rather than cottage industry manufacture.

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    • Replies: @Pericles
    I can't say I hear a lot about white South African criminality outside of movies like Lethal Weapon 2, and please, we don't mind if refugees are a burden. OK, so it might be better if the refugee also could undermine and destroy the local culture, but we'll take plain dependence if that's what's on offer.
  99. @Mao Cheng Ji
    I have the impression that the main problem in South Africa is horrendous levels of poverty and inequality. All the rest are just symptoms of that.

    Poverty and inequality are consequences, not causes.

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  100. @AceZwane
    What an idiot. So Zulu, Xhosa and Sotho migrated to South Africa? You don't know what the hell you're talking about, its better to shut up your retarded mouth and learn some history. Boers built no major companies but instead milked the natural resources that rightly belonged to native Africans.

    They definitely migrated – Xhosa migrated to what’s today South Africa and exterminated local bushmen in the process. Details: http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/national-suicide-yes-it-happens-look-at-the-xhosas/

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    The only detail he gives:

    (Don’t feel too bad for the Xhosa. They had themselves arrived in Southern Africa during the Middle Ages, displacing the indigenous hunter-gatherer Bushmen, probably without first saying “excuse me.”)
     
    The detail is triply wrong. In the first instance, the bantu-speaking ancestors of the Xhosa likely came more than a thousand years before the middle ages. Secondly, the Xhosa (his comment about pronunciation is quite the laugh---probably taught to him by someone who cannot pronounce the sucking or 'click' consonants) are the product of intermarriage between Bantu and Khoi san, as both the language (presence of clicking consonants, restricted to Khoi san languages and the subset of bantu languages that had extended contact with Khoi san languages), and the DNA show. For example, 25% of the Xhosa have Khoi San mDNA, and 50% of Zulu, while some Khoi San groups have Bantu mDNA. Thirdly, many Khoi San continued to practice animal husbandry and horticulture into the colonial period.

    A more serious discussion.

  101. @Anonymous
    Acceptable, if you honkies pay back all the wealth looted, and blood money for all the mass murders, over the centuries.

    Deal?

    Do you vile racist f***ers even have that much money to spare?

    The resources were only useful because whites were capable of mining them. Do you think that current technology of mining gold 4km below surface in SA was worked out by blacks? Think again.

    With you, it would still lie useless in the ground – in many places in Africa it is still like that. Unless you let Chinese in to mine that and give you a part in the process, a part you have not earned.

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  102. @AceZwane
    Boers built no manufacturing companies and depended on selling black peoples resources and stealing their land to force them to work in the wretched mines for slave labour. They never built any technologically advanced companies that could compete on the world market, sort of like ans African Australia. You white bastards alse brought Indians and Asians in our country ruining it forever and I hope Muslims overrun Europe so you get a taste of your own medicine.

    “black peoples resources” – there is no such thing in general really, as blacks do not produce any resources to speak of. Well, some food (and inefficiently at that). Unless you count what you sit on as your “resource”.

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  103. @The White Muslim Traditionalist
    I think that any racial violence is disgusting, white South Africans should be safe as any other color of person.


    However I can't help but retch at the hypocrisy of white nationalists who call for the ethnic cleansing and genocide of ethnic minorities in Europe but feel righteously indignant when black South Africans do to whites what you'd like to do to blacks, Arabs and people from the Indian subcontinent in Europe.

    The Bantus aren’t any more “indigenous” to South Africa than the Europeans, and the Europeans got there well before the Bantus.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    Seeing as the Bantu arrived between 2500 and 1500 years ago into Southern Africa, depending on the group, and seeing as the Europeans arrived starting about 500 years ago, the Europeans arrived minus 1000 to minus 2000 years before the Bantu. Brilliant.
  104. @AceZwane
    Boers built no manufacturing companies and depended on selling black peoples resources and stealing their land to force them to work in the wretched mines for slave labour. They never built any technologically advanced companies that could compete on the world market, sort of like ans African Australia. You white bastards alse brought Indians and Asians in our country ruining it forever and I hope Muslims overrun Europe so you get a taste of your own medicine.

    We didn’t put you in our mines; we (our government) put you in Anglo-American (both the company, and the ethno-nationalist ownership structure) mines. As well as our own. Perhaps you have forgotten that a big part of what caused our racial nationalism to grow was competition in the mining labour sector. Have you forgotten the white miner strikes on the rand (e.g. the one for which de la Rey called in the airforce to bomb the white mine workers), including against bringing black peasants to become mine workers? My one great grandfather was a coal miner (labourer) on the rand into the 1970s. Perhaps you have never been involved in blue collar labour.

    Are you perhaps a comfortable middle class individual, trying to make up for your comfort by shouting nationalist slogans? Now that you’ve gentrified the poorer white neighbourhoods after the end of the group areas act (Parow west used to be rather poor, for example, when it still was majority white), you seek something else to own, and rather than face the reality that your FIRE sector investments do nothing to develop the real economy, hence the continued poverty of the majority. I always found it telling to read the analysis of Steve Biko about middle class blacks being forced by apartheid to live with their poorer coethnics, but his suggestion that that lead to nationalist consciousness was always dubious—your type of nationalism is always a response to failure of the economy.

    You are the stereotype of the new nationalist elite discussed by Fanon. Oh, and about your complaints about Indians and other Asians, may it please you to know that Nigeria and Uganda kicked out their Indian populations; both proceeded to slaughter their own African ethnic populations, both with western support, and the former also with Soviet support (Biafra in the case of Nigeria, and the Nilo-Saharan ethnic groups in the case of Uganda). Nigeria is developing now, but they’ve had to swallow their pride, and bring in some foreigners. And Nigeria (and Kenya, including Bantu and Nilo-Saharan ethnic groups) have started the process of developing their own technological skillsets, including programming shops. Incidentally, so have we Afrikaners, and have some coloured-owned companies. I would not be surprised to find South African Bantus that have done the same, but I am confident that you are not involved in such enterprises.

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    • Replies: @fooco1
    "Indians and other Asians"

    Dunno how this *bizarre* meme ever got started.

    That's like calling Norse, "Asiatics like the Eskimo".

    Indians are not Asian. They are either *Aryan* (500 million) or *Dravidian* (another 500 million).

    The *Aryans* (around 400 or so different tribes in India) are Swastika and Laltika using ,(v)Edda religion following Indo-European (Indo of course specifically means India). Aryan, Swastika and Laltika are all native Hindi/Sanksrit words, and the Nazis (both original and modern) speak Hindi words on purpose to emphasize this conneciton.

    Savitri Devi wore a Sari and the Laltika on her forehead. Her books were sold very recently (and prominently) by Bob Pierce of the National Alliance. You can't really get any more right wing than the guy who *wrote* the Turner Diaries.

  105. @MBlanc46
    Right. On the other hand, it could be that the violence and crime are the cause of the poverty and inequality. That said, it's hard to imagine that an average IQ in the 70s doesn't hav something to do with it.

    On the other hand, it could be that the violence and crime are the cause of the poverty and inequality.

    Nah. It’s not typical, under normal circumstances, for working and middle-class people to engage in violence. Poverty is the cause of crime, the opposite doesn’t make sense at all.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    Poor people are usually not violent in the absence of immediate threat, or infant lead poisoning. Rwanda was subject to a USA and Canada backed invasion starting in 1990, that had ethnically cleansed one prefecture from 800k people to 1k8 people (mainly Ugandan Tutsis killing Hutus). South Africa is still trying to enforce a lead paint ban. Pretending that the violence is due to poverty is laughable, and in contradiction to available evidence.
  106. @Johan Meyer
    Huh? Much as I find AceZwane(Kazi) irritating, your post is full of nonsense.

    First off, both the Khoi-San and Bantu ethnic groups had metallurgy, with the Khoi San working and mining copper and the Bantu working and mining iron (hence the Bantu expansion from Cameroon); the Dutch would buy copper from the Khoi San groups, especially around what is now Kimberley. Secondly, traded goods have been found in archeological digs dating from more than a thousand years ago (e.g. Gauteng area), of Persian origin---the Bantu started entering the region about 3000 years ago. Thirdly, both the Khoi-San (those that weren't forced to revert to hunter-gatherer status by Bantu expansion) and Bantu engaged in animal husbandry, and the Bantu also developed crops including cereals, e.g. Sorghum (a big part of the malnutrition in sub-Saharan Africa is precisely because of the substitution of Maize for Sorghum, and there is a large movement back). The western mining companies (in particular, Canadian) that set up shop in African countries (Canada runs more than half the commercial mines in Africa iirc; see Engler's Canada in Africa) insist that the local governments stop the mining activities by local ethnic groups.

    The labour migrations from neighbouring countries were in large part because of particular trading arrangements set up by the west. The Soviet famine of 1932 was in that respect similar (west declining to buy Soviet gold, insisting on Soviet wheat, hence famine from Ukraine to Siberia, and from the Caucasus to Arkhangelsk). Another similar matter is the slave labour mining under Rwandan militia in eastern DRC, of Coltan. The main effect of the use of miners from neighbouring countries in the mines in northern Orange Freestate and southern Transvaal, given the apartheid relations, was the spread of HIV---mainly male labourers were allowed, and prostitution was not substantially suppressed. Upon returning to their own countries, they brought HIV back.

    Oh, and the Bantu ethnic groups that he lists are the product of intermarriage between Bantu (Cameroonian) interlopers and (Khoi San) locals.

    Huh? Much as I find AceZwane(Kazi) irritating, your post is full of nonsense.

    And I could say the same about yours which is filled with distortions and fabricated facts. The pre-existing black tribes of S. Africa did not have metallurgy. There is no evidence that they ever conceived of this concept or had the ability to smelt metals such as the Vikings did in the 8th and 9th century. There is no evidence that they knew what iron or mining was. They were very primitive and warlike hunter-gatherers.

    S. Africa didn’t start producing gold, platimun, coal and other base metals that are in world demand until the whites arrived.

    The Soviet famine, or Holodomer, had nothing to do with the West refusing to buy Soviet gold. It was an engineered famine by Stalin and carried out by Jewish commissars like Lazar Kaganovich to break Ukrainian nationalism and independence.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    Bantu Copper metallurgy (missing discussion of Khoi San, but oh well), and Bantu Iron working, whether you like it or not.

    As for the anti-Ukrainian famine that claimed more Russians than Ukrainians, well, what can I say? Tauger is one of many sources that call bs. Oh, and the Russians in eastern and southern Ukraine come mainly from the same time as the Ukrainians---Catherine the Great used Ukrainians, Russians, and to a lesser extent Greeks, Serbs and Romanians, to repopulate the land, after the slave raids of the Tatars. On the Soviet gold matter, nice try; the records of the laws banning gold trade remain.
    , @Johan Meyer
    Sorghum genetic diversity is correlated with language family of cultivators. Bantu and east-African originated Khoi San pastoralism also has lead to selection for lactase persistence.
  107. @AceZwane

    No, Einstein. If you read my post I said there were pre-existing tribes, but all they did was fight, enslave and kill each other. But the Boers and other Europeans ended tribal warfare and through their productive farming methods and the introduction of medical care those tribes saw a massive increase in their population.
     
    More lies there was never slavery in Southern Africa and Europeans fought just as much as Africans so spare me your peaceful whites drivel. So they helped us by stealing all our best land?Boers didn't create any of that they adopted it from someone else through trade. Why would I wear a bone in my nose, or eat insects again?

    White S. Africans created S. Africa’s economy and all of its commercial activities. In so doing they’d maximized the nation’s natural resources which led to the highest standards of living in all of Africa and attracted blacks from other parts of the African continent.
     
    They didn't create shit, they simply exploited the country's natural resources and stole our land forcing us to work in mines. Genocide is appropriate response in this instance and I support farm murders.

    Whites been predicting the fall of South Africa since forever and we're still waiting for it. Let Europeans stand back and see where they dump their subsidized goods to. Were doing fine for millenia without white cancer and will continue to do so.

    They didn’t create shit, they simply exploited the country’s natural resources and stole our land forcing us to work in mines.

    LOL. No, that’s just what you want to believe to justify your bestial racial hatred. The ANC is forcing you to work in the mines now, but that’s ok because they’re black supremacist just like you.

    You could save yourself some time and just respond that “We wuz kangs!” and “Da white man is da blue eyed devil”. It must really suck to be an 80 IQ African, but then, ignorance is bliss.

    Here’s the state of the rapidly worsening S. Africa under the rabidly black supremacist ANC. The journalist is an anti-apartheid, pajama boy white liberal, so don’t even try to accuse him of bias:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/11684492/South-Africas-long-walk-to-decline.html

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    • Replies: @joef

    You could save yourself some time and just respond that “We wuz kangs!” and “Da white man is da blue eyed devil”.
     
    LOL...I remember these ghetto statements: "We were all Kings & Queens in Africa before the White man arrived"... of course using the Socratic Method of Inquiry, it did not hold up very well to the first question: "Really, then who did all the work?; because if that was true, then there would be nobody to get anything else done, and you would all starve to death".

    After a flustered incoherent response I would finally interrupt with "It was the Kings of Africa who actually sold you to the White man as slaves" (probably getting rid of their criminal, crazy, and lazy in the process). And it was the stupid White man who purchased these afros, condemning their own future White descendants to a lifetime of financial servitude through endless entitlements support.

    But low IQ alone is not a big problem if someone is willing to use that low IQ for something productive. There are plenty of low IQ people, of other races, who find something to contribute that benefits society. It's the fact that radical afros refuse to get along in civilized society, while being parasitical to the system at large, believing there is an infinite source of free lunch.

    And to pay for these endless source of radical Afro entitlements, modern money junkie government has become a glorified revenue collector. Govt is constantly looking for new ways to pick our collective pockets through taxes, fines, fees, forfeitures, and tolls, to pay for the unsustainable afro welfare state. While our political masters, and the MSM, accuse us all of racism, and use war talk to distract us from our domestic problems (economic, low employment, high crime, high taxes, and race relations).

    In the last half century radical African Americans have killed more of their fellow citizens than all the terrorist actions against us combined. Our primary war is not overseas; it is at home with domestic combatants! The choice to be hostile was not ours (we are too busy struggling), but initiated by the radical Afro Americans themselves (abetted by the New Left and SJW).

    If radical afro americans would stop their bad behavior, we would stop criticizing them. Yet they just don't seem to get it... they only demand more & more ad infinitum. And while our political leaders continue to kick this dysfunctional can down the road, it will eventually break the country's economic back.
  108. @AceZwane
    Whites trolling as usual fortunately farm murders are doing gods work by cleansing them from African soil.

    Oh, what god would that be, Ace? Don’t forget that the white farmers are what keeps the Tokoloshes away.

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  109. @Rurik

    Just one thing: The historic peoples of South Africa are white.
     
    then they should have defended their ancient lands from black rule with their last dying (white) breath

    [idiots]

    but they were too worried about whether or not Bruce Springsteen was going to play a concert, so in order to status whore and mollify the anti-white forces of Zio-England and the depraved West (Glob) they caved and said they'd live under black rule.

    pack your bags

    game over

    Regrettable; consider that if they had held out 10-20 years more, South Africa could have allied with the Chinese instead and back to hell with the Great Satan and the Other Little Satan (UK).

    However, I’d like to add I’m sure you also strongly feel that their ancient lands must be respected regardless of such bad decisions. It just looks like you forgot to write that for the white people.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    However, I’d like to add I’m sure you also strongly feel that their ancient lands must be respected regardless of such bad decisions. It just looks like you forgot to write that for the white people.
     
    I'd advocate that they start an armed insurrection to get control of their country back. I'd start killing the white collaborators and anyone else who insists on white genocide in S. Africa.

    I'd immediately cut ties with Perfidious Albion and the ZUSA and all its assorted whores in the EU. I'd look to the east for trade and cooperation from Russia or China or anywhere I could find it.

    I'd do all of that if I were an Afrikaner who had any hope for my progeny to live in our historic lands unmolested by envious and murderous blacks or the agents of the Fiend / Zio-UK.

    But if that's not possible, (and it looks like a stretch to me ; ), then I'd simply milk what's left of the doomed country for what its worth and plan the future of my family on a white-dominated continent, while they still exist.

    PS. something that would be interesting to watch is how the US military would react when Trump orders them to go kill the S. African whites who're trying to start a revolution to get their country back. They've been ordered to play nice with Afghan men who chain boys to their beds, and to fight alongside terrorists in Syria, but how well would they preform killing whites alongside Marxist black Africans, I'd like to know

  110. @Johan Meyer
    Economic migrant. Erken dit, toe wees eerlik. The fact that you have internet means that you are with high probability urban, and a large section of the blacks with whom you have interactions will be foreigners. And funnier---living on the breadline (poverty line, for other readers), yet can afford internet and dogs; spare me. Hell, my brother was living in one of the more dangerous formerly coloured areas in Cape Town, and was not bothered, despite renting a room in someone's backyard.

    I did the two facebook searches you suggested. The first brings up people complaining about Zuma's disgusting song, which he sang in public in 2012, during a function. No new performances, to my knowledge. The second is a protected facebook group, that does not allow one to see the discussion without first signing up.

    I'll make two comments. First off, because policing has collapsed in South Africa, many criminals do go free (albeit not the 92 in a hundred suggested by the OP). This also has the consequence that white South African criminals go undetected. Abroad, white South Africans have a certain notoriety for excess criminality, compared to the local (abroad) whites, and often other minorities as well, although political correctness restricts such observations to e.g. police detectives. Secondly, the fact that you seek an automatic asylum suggests that you lack marketable skill sets, and will end up being a burden abroad. The market for the kind of cottage industry in which underskilled South African whites tend to partake in order to make ends meet, is generally already saturated abroad, and people prefer in any case to purchase lower price industrial manufacture, rather than cottage industry manufacture.

    I can’t say I hear a lot about white South African criminality outside of movies like Lethal Weapon 2, and please, we don’t mind if refugees are a burden. OK, so it might be better if the refugee also could undermine and destroy the local culture, but we’ll take plain dependence if that’s what’s on offer.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    From drug smuggling, both black and white, as well as murder, rape of patients and a step-daughter, and the like.

    I certainly object to your scheme. I would be forever hateful should my ethnic group be dispersed, and the idea of fulfilling someone else's ethnic fantasies is repulsive. Rather than whine about the status quo in your country, and about the socio-economic status of your ethnic group, do something about it. FFS, there are a great many courses of action that you can take to solve your own problems, before butting into problems elsewhere. Aside from the farming minority, whites are subject to a much lower murder rate than other South Africans, and even the murder rates quoted in the OP, of the farming minority of whites is far from clear.
  111. @Johan Meyer
    Flaky in the extreme, and irrelevant to the extent accurate. Firstly, Cameroon and environs is a question of time depth; the estimate is 3k years ago---yes, other divisions would have developed in the interim, but that is irrelevant to ultimate origin. Secondly, the notion that the Khoi San were migrating southward along the west coast is laughable in the extreme---the closest related groups are in Tanzania. A far more likely migration would be northward, into current Angola. That nonsense in your link is likely to justify the presence of sucking consonants ('clicks') in the Nguni and other southern African Bantu languages, with a terra nullius fantasy, which seems to be part of the colonial heritage.

    Finally, to make great inferences about migrations based on where people live post-Zulu empire and post-Boer republics, is indicative of either dishonesty, or intellectual deficiency.

    produce proof that south african black tribes all came from the cameroon

    a link will do

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    So I am to provide a link to support something with which I disagree? I claimed that the Bantu ancestors of South Africa's Bantu-speaking populations come from Cameroon. The South African Bantu speakers also have substantial (especially among the Nguni Bantu) Khoi San ancestry, and to the extent that they are of the eastern wing of the Bantu migration, will also have east African (Cushtic and Nilo-Saharan) ancestry, although the bulk of their non-KhoiSan ancestry is west African. This author is wrong about the time depth (kingdoms form typically long after initial settlement, as the record in Europe and elsewhere make clear), but is otherwise a good non-technical overview.
  112. @abf
    They definitely migrated - Xhosa migrated to what's today South Africa and exterminated local bushmen in the process. Details: http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/national-suicide-yes-it-happens-look-at-the-xhosas/

    The only detail he gives:

    (Don’t feel too bad for the Xhosa. They had themselves arrived in Southern Africa during the Middle Ages, displacing the indigenous hunter-gatherer Bushmen, probably without first saying “excuse me.”)

    The detail is triply wrong. In the first instance, the bantu-speaking ancestors of the Xhosa likely came more than a thousand years before the middle ages. Secondly, the Xhosa (his comment about pronunciation is quite the laugh—probably taught to him by someone who cannot pronounce the sucking or ‘click’ consonants) are the product of intermarriage between Bantu and Khoi san, as both the language (presence of clicking consonants, restricted to Khoi san languages and the subset of bantu languages that had extended contact with Khoi san languages), and the DNA show. For example, 25% of the Xhosa have Khoi San mDNA, and 50% of Zulu, while some Khoi San groups have Bantu mDNA. Thirdly, many Khoi San continued to practice animal husbandry and horticulture into the colonial period.

    A more serious discussion.

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  113. @KenH

    Huh? Much as I find AceZwane(Kazi) irritating, your post is full of nonsense.
     
    And I could say the same about yours which is filled with distortions and fabricated facts. The pre-existing black tribes of S. Africa did not have metallurgy. There is no evidence that they ever conceived of this concept or had the ability to smelt metals such as the Vikings did in the 8th and 9th century. There is no evidence that they knew what iron or mining was. They were very primitive and warlike hunter-gatherers.

    S. Africa didn't start producing gold, platimun, coal and other base metals that are in world demand until the whites arrived.

    The Soviet famine, or Holodomer, had nothing to do with the West refusing to buy Soviet gold. It was an engineered famine by Stalin and carried out by Jewish commissars like Lazar Kaganovich to break Ukrainian nationalism and independence.

    Bantu Copper metallurgy (missing discussion of Khoi San, but oh well), and Bantu Iron working, whether you like it or not.

    As for the anti-Ukrainian famine that claimed more Russians than Ukrainians, well, what can I say? Tauger is one of many sources that call bs. Oh, and the Russians in eastern and southern Ukraine come mainly from the same time as the Ukrainians—Catherine the Great used Ukrainians, Russians, and to a lesser extent Greeks, Serbs and Romanians, to repopulate the land, after the slave raids of the Tatars. On the Soviet gold matter, nice try; the records of the laws banning gold trade remain.

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    • Replies: @KenH
    Evidence of sub-Saharan metallurgy is inconclusive at best. It was most likely introduced by Carthaginian settlements or traders traveling throughout the Sahara:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=oMgkHFiBTMEC&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=no+metallurgy+in+sub+saharan+africa&source=bl&ots=r30AVuU3nu&sig=VlGArNDFbwPo24nkR-6jdbKXJDY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZur2x29vTAhUI_4MKHSzwAAc4ChDoAQhRMAg#v=onepage&q=no%20metallurgy%20in%20sub%20saharan%20africa&f=false

    The seemingly European afrocentrist sources you provide make the threadbare claim that since some copper artifacts were discovered that this must stand as evidence of rudimentary metallurgy. Even if true this knowledge and craft was long lost when Europeans arrived as there's no account that I'm aware of where Europeans documented its knowledge and use by the black natives they came in contact with.

    You made the bold claim that the Zulus, Xhosa and other tribes were practicing metallurgists when the Boers and Europeans arrived. You have not provided incontrovertible proof of the claim that not only were they kangs, but metallurgists too.

    Regarding the holodomor, believe what you want if it makes you feel good. Usually it's Jews who deny it ever happened since they had a hand in it. The same Jews who go bat shit crazy when you question their holocaust stories.

  114. @Mao Cheng Ji

    On the other hand, it could be that the violence and crime are the cause of the poverty and inequality.
     
    Nah. It's not typical, under normal circumstances, for working and middle-class people to engage in violence. Poverty is the cause of crime, the opposite doesn't make sense at all.

    Poor people are usually not violent in the absence of immediate threat, or infant lead poisoning. Rwanda was subject to a USA and Canada backed invasion starting in 1990, that had ethnically cleansed one prefecture from 800k people to 1k8 people (mainly Ugandan Tutsis killing Hutus). South Africa is still trying to enforce a lead paint ban. Pretending that the violence is due to poverty is laughable, and in contradiction to available evidence.

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    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji

    Pretending that the violence is due to poverty is laughable, and in contradiction to available evidence.
     
    I'm not pretending anything. I said, at the beginning: poverty and inequality, and I believe this to be true. Yes, in a society where everyone is poor there could be different dynamics, but where you have a combination of extreme poverty and huge socioeconomic disparity - and South Africa is one of the worst (if not the worst) cases of that in the world - violent crime is a perfectly natural consequence.
  115. @Johan Meyer
    Poor people are usually not violent in the absence of immediate threat, or infant lead poisoning. Rwanda was subject to a USA and Canada backed invasion starting in 1990, that had ethnically cleansed one prefecture from 800k people to 1k8 people (mainly Ugandan Tutsis killing Hutus). South Africa is still trying to enforce a lead paint ban. Pretending that the violence is due to poverty is laughable, and in contradiction to available evidence.

    Pretending that the violence is due to poverty is laughable, and in contradiction to available evidence.

    I’m not pretending anything. I said, at the beginning: poverty and inequality, and I believe this to be true. Yes, in a society where everyone is poor there could be different dynamics, but where you have a combination of extreme poverty and huge socioeconomic disparity – and South Africa is one of the worst (if not the worst) cases of that in the world – violent crime is a perfectly natural consequence.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    The correlation on a country basis between gini coefficient and murder rate is about 0.47. In the US, the correlation between black percentage of a neighbourhood and murder rate is on the order of 0.9. So the race to murder correlation is nearly double the inequality to murder correlation. The state elevated blood lead level rate to murder rate correlation is weaker than the race data, though blood lead level is a poor proxy for poisoning, and I recall (don't have the data on hand) it being on the order of 0.6-0.8. Either way, inequality does not cause violence. See e.g. race and crime in america
  116. @Pericles
    I can't say I hear a lot about white South African criminality outside of movies like Lethal Weapon 2, and please, we don't mind if refugees are a burden. OK, so it might be better if the refugee also could undermine and destroy the local culture, but we'll take plain dependence if that's what's on offer.

    From drug smuggling, both black and white, as well as murder, rape of patients and a step-daughter, and the like.

    I certainly object to your scheme. I would be forever hateful should my ethnic group be dispersed, and the idea of fulfilling someone else’s ethnic fantasies is repulsive. Rather than whine about the status quo in your country, and about the socio-economic status of your ethnic group, do something about it. FFS, there are a great many courses of action that you can take to solve your own problems, before butting into problems elsewhere. Aside from the farming minority, whites are subject to a much lower murder rate than other South Africans, and even the murder rates quoted in the OP, of the farming minority of whites is far from clear.

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    • Replies: @Pericles
    Well, let me first say I would prefer the white South Africans to keep their homeland and remain there. Just to be clear. But as refugees go, even unskilled ones hardly would be the worst.

    I'll also say that for a soft European, even if the murder rates are unexceptional compared to others, it's very concerning to read the many articles on old white farmers being targeted and murdered by blacks.
  117. @Pericles
    Regrettable; consider that if they had held out 10-20 years more, South Africa could have allied with the Chinese instead and back to hell with the Great Satan and the Other Little Satan (UK).

    However, I'd like to add I'm sure you also strongly feel that their ancient lands must be respected regardless of such bad decisions. It just looks like you forgot to write that for the white people.

    However, I’d like to add I’m sure you also strongly feel that their ancient lands must be respected regardless of such bad decisions. It just looks like you forgot to write that for the white people.

    I’d advocate that they start an armed insurrection to get control of their country back. I’d start killing the white collaborators and anyone else who insists on white genocide in S. Africa.

    I’d immediately cut ties with Perfidious Albion and the ZUSA and all its assorted whores in the EU. I’d look to the east for trade and cooperation from Russia or China or anywhere I could find it.

    I’d do all of that if I were an Afrikaner who had any hope for my progeny to live in our historic lands unmolested by envious and murderous blacks or the agents of the Fiend / Zio-UK.

    But if that’s not possible, (and it looks like a stretch to me ; ), then I’d simply milk what’s left of the doomed country for what its worth and plan the future of my family on a white-dominated continent, while they still exist.

    PS. something that would be interesting to watch is how the US military would react when Trump orders them to go kill the S. African whites who’re trying to start a revolution to get their country back. They’ve been ordered to play nice with Afghan men who chain boys to their beds, and to fight alongside terrorists in Syria, but how well would they preform killing whites alongside Marxist black Africans, I’d like to know

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  118. @mcohen
    produce proof that south african black tribes all came from the cameroon

    a link will do

    So I am to provide a link to support something with which I disagree? I claimed that the Bantu ancestors of South Africa’s Bantu-speaking populations come from Cameroon. The South African Bantu speakers also have substantial (especially among the Nguni Bantu) Khoi San ancestry, and to the extent that they are of the eastern wing of the Bantu migration, will also have east African (Cushtic and Nilo-Saharan) ancestry, although the bulk of their non-KhoiSan ancestry is west African. This author is wrong about the time depth (kingdoms form typically long after initial settlement, as the record in Europe and elsewhere make clear), but is otherwise a good non-technical overview.

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  119. @Mark Caplan
    The Bantus aren't any more "indigenous" to South Africa than the Europeans, and the Europeans got there well before the Bantus.

    Seeing as the Bantu arrived between 2500 and 1500 years ago into Southern Africa, depending on the group, and seeing as the Europeans arrived starting about 500 years ago, the Europeans arrived minus 1000 to minus 2000 years before the Bantu. Brilliant.

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  120. @Mao Cheng Ji

    Pretending that the violence is due to poverty is laughable, and in contradiction to available evidence.
     
    I'm not pretending anything. I said, at the beginning: poverty and inequality, and I believe this to be true. Yes, in a society where everyone is poor there could be different dynamics, but where you have a combination of extreme poverty and huge socioeconomic disparity - and South Africa is one of the worst (if not the worst) cases of that in the world - violent crime is a perfectly natural consequence.

    The correlation on a country basis between gini coefficient and murder rate is about 0.47. In the US, the correlation between black percentage of a neighbourhood and murder rate is on the order of 0.9. So the race to murder correlation is nearly double the inequality to murder correlation. The state elevated blood lead level rate to murder rate correlation is weaker than the race data, though blood lead level is a poor proxy for poisoning, and I recall (don’t have the data on hand) it being on the order of 0.6-0.8. Either way, inequality does not cause violence. See e.g. race and crime in america

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    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji

    The correlation on a country basis between gini coefficient and murder rate is about 0.47.
     
    South Africa is one of the most unequal countries on earth with massive extreme poverty and with one of the highest rates of violent crime. Other countries may have different problems, but this country has this problem.

    In the US, the correlation between black percentage of a neighbourhood and murder rate is on the order of 0.9.
     
    Yeah? And how do you interpret this factoid, may I ask? I'm really curious.

    The state elevated blood lead level rate to murder rate correlation is weaker than the race data
     
    Lol. What is it with you and wacky correlations? Do you even understand the difference between 'correlation' and 'causation'?
  121. @KenH

    They didn’t create shit, they simply exploited the country’s natural resources and stole our land forcing us to work in mines.
     
    LOL. No, that's just what you want to believe to justify your bestial racial hatred. The ANC is forcing you to work in the mines now, but that's ok because they're black supremacist just like you.

    You could save yourself some time and just respond that "We wuz kangs!" and "Da white man is da blue eyed devil". It must really suck to be an 80 IQ African, but then, ignorance is bliss.

    Here's the state of the rapidly worsening S. Africa under the rabidly black supremacist ANC. The journalist is an anti-apartheid, pajama boy white liberal, so don't even try to accuse him of bias:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/southafrica/11684492/South-Africas-long-walk-to-decline.html

    You could save yourself some time and just respond that “We wuz kangs!” and “Da white man is da blue eyed devil”.

    LOL…I remember these ghetto statements: “We were all Kings & Queens in Africa before the White man arrived”… of course using the Socratic Method of Inquiry, it did not hold up very well to the first question: “Really, then who did all the work?; because if that was true, then there would be nobody to get anything else done, and you would all starve to death”.

    After a flustered incoherent response I would finally interrupt with “It was the Kings of Africa who actually sold you to the White man as slaves” (probably getting rid of their criminal, crazy, and lazy in the process). And it was the stupid White man who purchased these afros, condemning their own future White descendants to a lifetime of financial servitude through endless entitlements support.

    But low IQ alone is not a big problem if someone is willing to use that low IQ for something productive. There are plenty of low IQ people, of other races, who find something to contribute that benefits society. It’s the fact that radical afros refuse to get along in civilized society, while being parasitical to the system at large, believing there is an infinite source of free lunch.

    And to pay for these endless source of radical Afro entitlements, modern money junkie government has become a glorified revenue collector. Govt is constantly looking for new ways to pick our collective pockets through taxes, fines, fees, forfeitures, and tolls, to pay for the unsustainable afro welfare state. While our political masters, and the MSM, accuse us all of racism, and use war talk to distract us from our domestic problems (economic, low employment, high crime, high taxes, and race relations).

    In the last half century radical African Americans have killed more of their fellow citizens than all the terrorist actions against us combined. Our primary war is not overseas; it is at home with domestic combatants! The choice to be hostile was not ours (we are too busy struggling), but initiated by the radical Afro Americans themselves (abetted by the New Left and SJW).

    If radical afro americans would stop their bad behavior, we would stop criticizing them. Yet they just don’t seem to get it… they only demand more & more ad infinitum. And while our political leaders continue to kick this dysfunctional can down the road, it will eventually break the country’s economic back.

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    • Replies: @KenH

    If radical afro americans would stop their bad behavior, we would stop criticizing them
     
    Yes, but you see they won't since that would be acting white and selling out. So they act all hostile and gangsta to stay true to their peeps. There will never be peace between us unless and until there is separation.
  122. @Johan Meyer
    The correlation on a country basis between gini coefficient and murder rate is about 0.47. In the US, the correlation between black percentage of a neighbourhood and murder rate is on the order of 0.9. So the race to murder correlation is nearly double the inequality to murder correlation. The state elevated blood lead level rate to murder rate correlation is weaker than the race data, though blood lead level is a poor proxy for poisoning, and I recall (don't have the data on hand) it being on the order of 0.6-0.8. Either way, inequality does not cause violence. See e.g. race and crime in america

    The correlation on a country basis between gini coefficient and murder rate is about 0.47.

    South Africa is one of the most unequal countries on earth with massive extreme poverty and with one of the highest rates of violent crime. Other countries may have different problems, but this country has this problem.

    In the US, the correlation between black percentage of a neighbourhood and murder rate is on the order of 0.9.

    Yeah? And how do you interpret this factoid, may I ask? I’m really curious.

    The state elevated blood lead level rate to murder rate correlation is weaker than the race data

    Lol. What is it with you and wacky correlations? Do you even understand the difference between ‘correlation’ and ‘causation’?

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    Correlation is a statistical relation. Causation is a logical relation (actually, there are several). Logical relations, when a phenomenon is present, will lead to statistical relations. Statistical relations are often more tractable, and a direct application of the modus tollens (falsification) is usually not available. Hence correlations give more insight, although the counterexamples are enough to give a good probability of falsehood for your hypothesis.

    As to the interpretation of the race and crime data, my inference, as I've stated before, is that it is a consequence of whites buying the then status object (lead paint), and once they discover how harmful it is, they sell cheap, with slumlords who rent to blacks, and non-slumlord blacks, buying it. My comment history is available to all, and I made the comments on threads on which you were participating.

    South Africa is the second worst for income inequality in the list I used for the correlation calculation, yet is ninth in murder rate, with a third of those countries having double or more of South Africa's murder rate.

    The other question is why poor people would murder poor people out of spite or other cause connected to inequality, rather than kill rich people. Some of the white farmers are actually quite poor, especially in what used to be the western Transvaal. Case in point: White supremacist farmer Eugene Terreblanche, a rather poor fellow.

  123. @Johan Meyer
    From drug smuggling, both black and white, as well as murder, rape of patients and a step-daughter, and the like.

    I certainly object to your scheme. I would be forever hateful should my ethnic group be dispersed, and the idea of fulfilling someone else's ethnic fantasies is repulsive. Rather than whine about the status quo in your country, and about the socio-economic status of your ethnic group, do something about it. FFS, there are a great many courses of action that you can take to solve your own problems, before butting into problems elsewhere. Aside from the farming minority, whites are subject to a much lower murder rate than other South Africans, and even the murder rates quoted in the OP, of the farming minority of whites is far from clear.

    Well, let me first say I would prefer the white South Africans to keep their homeland and remain there. Just to be clear. But as refugees go, even unskilled ones hardly would be the worst.

    I’ll also say that for a soft European, even if the murder rates are unexceptional compared to others, it’s very concerning to read the many articles on old white farmers being targeted and murdered by blacks.

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  124. @KenH

    Huh? Much as I find AceZwane(Kazi) irritating, your post is full of nonsense.
     
    And I could say the same about yours which is filled with distortions and fabricated facts. The pre-existing black tribes of S. Africa did not have metallurgy. There is no evidence that they ever conceived of this concept or had the ability to smelt metals such as the Vikings did in the 8th and 9th century. There is no evidence that they knew what iron or mining was. They were very primitive and warlike hunter-gatherers.

    S. Africa didn't start producing gold, platimun, coal and other base metals that are in world demand until the whites arrived.

    The Soviet famine, or Holodomer, had nothing to do with the West refusing to buy Soviet gold. It was an engineered famine by Stalin and carried out by Jewish commissars like Lazar Kaganovich to break Ukrainian nationalism and independence.

    Sorghum genetic diversity is correlated with language family of cultivators. Bantu and east-African originated Khoi San pastoralism also has lead to selection for lactase persistence.

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  125. This is an interesting article. It seems to be true that races bring their culture with them (not that this is fixed – the Germans were barbarians for the ancient Romans).

    Taking the European Imperial phase of the 18th and 19th centuries, black Africa received European colonists with a racist and technological/organizational tradition that produced development (for everyone) but particularly benefiting white settlers (they created the complex wealth creating systems after all).

    The question is, “If I settle in your country and make it a richer and better place for everyone – especially myself, due to my ‘leading role’, am I entitled to 1) take power in an apartheid regime 2) hold a disproportionate part of the national wealth and property as part of a separate ethnic group?

    The answer to both questions is probably No.

    It only works if European whites use their traditions of technological/organizational wealth creation in their own European countries (where there is more competition) and let blacks find their own destiny in their own continent of Black Africa.

    That’s not to say that whites can’t settle and work in Africa as foreign residents without receiving citizenship or political rights. If they wish, they can choose to become more ethnically African over time with the consequent political rights.

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  126. @Mao Cheng Ji

    The correlation on a country basis between gini coefficient and murder rate is about 0.47.
     
    South Africa is one of the most unequal countries on earth with massive extreme poverty and with one of the highest rates of violent crime. Other countries may have different problems, but this country has this problem.

    In the US, the correlation between black percentage of a neighbourhood and murder rate is on the order of 0.9.
     
    Yeah? And how do you interpret this factoid, may I ask? I'm really curious.

    The state elevated blood lead level rate to murder rate correlation is weaker than the race data
     
    Lol. What is it with you and wacky correlations? Do you even understand the difference between 'correlation' and 'causation'?

    Correlation is a statistical relation. Causation is a logical relation (actually, there are several). Logical relations, when a phenomenon is present, will lead to statistical relations. Statistical relations are often more tractable, and a direct application of the modus tollens (falsification) is usually not available. Hence correlations give more insight, although the counterexamples are enough to give a good probability of falsehood for your hypothesis.

    As to the interpretation of the race and crime data, my inference, as I’ve stated before, is that it is a consequence of whites buying the then status object (lead paint), and once they discover how harmful it is, they sell cheap, with slumlords who rent to blacks, and non-slumlord blacks, buying it. My comment history is available to all, and I made the comments on threads on which you were participating.

    South Africa is the second worst for income inequality in the list I used for the correlation calculation, yet is ninth in murder rate, with a third of those countries having double or more of South Africa’s murder rate.

    The other question is why poor people would murder poor people out of spite or other cause connected to inequality, rather than kill rich people. Some of the white farmers are actually quite poor, especially in what used to be the western Transvaal. Case in point: White supremacist farmer Eugene Terreblanche, a rather poor fellow.

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    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji

    South Africa is the second worst for income inequality in the list I used for the correlation calculation, yet is ninth in murder rate, with a third of those countries having double or more of South Africa’s murder rate.
     
    Like I said, other countries may have different problems, different circumstances, not related to inequality but affecting the crime rates. And gini - one number - can't describe the severity of the socioeconomic situation.

    Anyway, what's with the lead paint thing? How can lead paint force someone to commit murder? Social phenomena have social causes.
  127. @AceZwane
    Zimbabwe was never a breadbasket. Stop lying out of your ass.

    Not Zimbabwe, dumbass, Rhodesia. It was the breadbasket of Africa, but because it was founded and run by white people. Look up Rhodesia on google or bing.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    The production of maize (The link also contains links to the same data for Sorghum, millet, wheat, cotton etc; maize is low quality nutrition, and sorghum is better) continued until the land reforms. The wheat and cotton production continued until ten years later. Zambian agricultural production has largely been growing; Zambia was part of Rhodesia until 1964. They did foolishly abandon sorghum in the 70s.
  128. @KenH

    So Zulu, Xhosa and Sotho migrated to South Africa?
     
    No, Einstein. If you read my post I said there were pre-existing tribes, but all they did was fight, enslave and kill each other. But the Boers and other Europeans ended tribal warfare and through their productive farming methods and the introduction of medical care those tribes saw a massive increase in their population.

    If it wasn't for the whites you'd still be wearing a bone in your nose and eating insects and weeds.

    You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about, its better to shut up your retarded mouth and learn some history.
     
    Yeah, real men issue threats from behind a keyboard using a phony name. We'll call you the keyboard coon.

    Boers built no major companies but instead milked the natural resources that rightly belonged to native Africans.
     
    White S. Africans created S. Africa's economy and all of its commercial activities. In so doing they'd maximized the nation's natural resources which led to the highest standards of living in all of Africa and attracted blacks from other parts of the African continent.

    Thanks to the genocidal ANC and black supremacist rule they are starting to screw everything up. Come to think of it, black Africans could screw up a two car parade.

    It's time Europeans stand back and let black Africans die out which they will if left to their own devices.

    If it wasn’t for the whites you’d still be wearing a bone in your nose and eating insects and weeds.

    What do you mean? He’s got a bone in his nose. He’s only not eating insects and weeds because of the WIC program.

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  129. @Johan Meyer
    Correlation is a statistical relation. Causation is a logical relation (actually, there are several). Logical relations, when a phenomenon is present, will lead to statistical relations. Statistical relations are often more tractable, and a direct application of the modus tollens (falsification) is usually not available. Hence correlations give more insight, although the counterexamples are enough to give a good probability of falsehood for your hypothesis.

    As to the interpretation of the race and crime data, my inference, as I've stated before, is that it is a consequence of whites buying the then status object (lead paint), and once they discover how harmful it is, they sell cheap, with slumlords who rent to blacks, and non-slumlord blacks, buying it. My comment history is available to all, and I made the comments on threads on which you were participating.

    South Africa is the second worst for income inequality in the list I used for the correlation calculation, yet is ninth in murder rate, with a third of those countries having double or more of South Africa's murder rate.

    The other question is why poor people would murder poor people out of spite or other cause connected to inequality, rather than kill rich people. Some of the white farmers are actually quite poor, especially in what used to be the western Transvaal. Case in point: White supremacist farmer Eugene Terreblanche, a rather poor fellow.

    South Africa is the second worst for income inequality in the list I used for the correlation calculation, yet is ninth in murder rate, with a third of those countries having double or more of South Africa’s murder rate.

    Like I said, other countries may have different problems, different circumstances, not related to inequality but affecting the crime rates. And gini – one number – can’t describe the severity of the socioeconomic situation.

    Anyway, what’s with the lead paint thing? How can lead paint force someone to commit murder? Social phenomena have social causes.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer

    Like I said, other countries may have different problems, different circumstances, not related to inequality but affecting the crime rates. And gini – one number – can’t describe the severity of the socioeconomic situation.

    Anyway, what’s with the lead paint thing? How can lead paint force someone to commit murder? Social phenomena have social causes.
     
    Ex cathedra assertion (social phenomena have social causes), which is unlikely, based on the various correlations found, including ethnicity. A biological cause is more probable. The HBD crowd suggest genetics, although any other cause correlated with genetics is a contender. Infant lead poisoning leads to reduced impulse control, which often leads to murder and other violence being perpetrated. Your ex cathedra assertion is a gimmick to avoid defining social, yet society is a particular collection of biological individuals.

    As to your idea that one number cannot describe a phenomenon, in some cases it can. Otherwise you should be able to complain that the murder rate cannot describe the murder phenomenon. It is an intellectual cul-de-sac. Gini is a monotonically increasing measure of inequality, thus it should have predictive power for countable phenomena that are produced by inequality, e.g. as you allege, murder. Which it does, but not nearly as much predictive power as the other measures that I listed. Which suggests that there is a causal connection between inequality and murder, but more likely of a shared cause variety, rather than that one causes the other. I suggest that the shared cause is lead poisoning in infancy, leading to intellectual deficiency, which then leads to inequality beyond what would otherwise be expected, as well as greater violence.
  130. @Achmed E. Newman
    Not Zimbabwe, dumbass, Rhodesia. It was the breadbasket of Africa, but because it was founded and run by white people. Look up Rhodesia on google or bing.

    The production of maize (The link also contains links to the same data for Sorghum, millet, wheat, cotton etc; maize is low quality nutrition, and sorghum is better) continued until the land reforms. The wheat and cotton production continued until ten years later. Zambian agricultural production has largely been growing; Zambia was part of Rhodesia until 1964. They did foolishly abandon sorghum in the 70s.

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  131. @Mao Cheng Ji

    South Africa is the second worst for income inequality in the list I used for the correlation calculation, yet is ninth in murder rate, with a third of those countries having double or more of South Africa’s murder rate.
     
    Like I said, other countries may have different problems, different circumstances, not related to inequality but affecting the crime rates. And gini - one number - can't describe the severity of the socioeconomic situation.

    Anyway, what's with the lead paint thing? How can lead paint force someone to commit murder? Social phenomena have social causes.

    Like I said, other countries may have different problems, different circumstances, not related to inequality but affecting the crime rates. And gini – one number – can’t describe the severity of the socioeconomic situation.

    Anyway, what’s with the lead paint thing? How can lead paint force someone to commit murder? Social phenomena have social causes.

    Ex cathedra assertion (social phenomena have social causes), which is unlikely, based on the various correlations found, including ethnicity. A biological cause is more probable. The HBD crowd suggest genetics, although any other cause correlated with genetics is a contender. Infant lead poisoning leads to reduced impulse control, which often leads to murder and other violence being perpetrated. Your ex cathedra assertion is a gimmick to avoid defining social, yet society is a particular collection of biological individuals.

    As to your idea that one number cannot describe a phenomenon, in some cases it can. Otherwise you should be able to complain that the murder rate cannot describe the murder phenomenon. It is an intellectual cul-de-sac. Gini is a monotonically increasing measure of inequality, thus it should have predictive power for countable phenomena that are produced by inequality, e.g. as you allege, murder. Which it does, but not nearly as much predictive power as the other measures that I listed. Which suggests that there is a causal connection between inequality and murder, but more likely of a shared cause variety, rather than that one causes the other. I suggest that the shared cause is lead poisoning in infancy, leading to intellectual deficiency, which then leads to inequality beyond what would otherwise be expected, as well as greater violence.

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    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji

    yet society is a particular collection of biological individuals
     
    Society is not a collection of individuals, in the same sense as individual is not a collection of atoms. Society is an evolving self-organizing structure.

    Infant lead poisoning leads to reduced impulse control
     
    To what extent this may or may not be true I have no idea, but societies have evolved mechanisms to compensate, to deal with this sort of things: taboos on consuming alcohol and drugs, ban on certain kinds of weapons, body-concealing garments for women, various other taboos and disincentives for resolving conflicts with violence, as well as ways to minimize, avoid, or at least to mask these conflicts (taboos on showing off/wealth-flashing in Scandinavia, for example).

    Avoiding a close coexistence of great wealth and extreme poverty is obviously one of these mechanisms, leading, for example, to emergence of so-called 'welfare state'. South African society has failed in this respect. It's a failed society.
  132. @Johan Meyer
    It is funny, cos both we Afrikaners, and the South African Bantu, have some Khoi San ancestry (although the bulk of their descendants are classified as "Coloureds"---Bantu were classified as "Black"). But the only people whom we really wronged prior to apartheid were the Khoi San groups, and that could in many cases reasonably be called genocidal (despite some early intermarriage---see Herkoms van die Afrikaner). The wars with the amaXhosa don't count, as they were based on mutual cattle theft.

    Pay taxes in former British colonies? Up to a point, but if the DA doesn't screw up Pretoria, and if Malema continues to behave himself (no more anti-Afrikaner "struggle" songs), and continues with the informal alliance with the DA to keep out Zuma's crooks, I'll happily vote Malema next time; only filial piety keeps me from returning, and there is frankly much more opportunity back home for people with technical education. AceZwane and his (her? AceZwane-kazi?) ideological descendants will be suffering our presence for the foreseeable future---the fact is that the PAC lost to the ANC, long before the fall of apartheid.

    Other than farms that were specifically taken by the apartheid government from black (and other non-white) owners and given to whites, I cannot see a large scale redistribution happening on ethnic lines. The malnutrition problems typical of Zimbabwe (mainly due to Mugabe's doing the IMF's bidding during the 90s, hence destroying the economy---how soon we forget) is not nearly as big in SA (the period of black---really just Nguni groups---malnutrition was 1969 to late 1980s, although the apartheid regime was to blame, and by 1969, the apartheid regime had solved the Afrikaner Kwashiorkor problem, yet there were 10k detected black mainly Nguni cases in 1969), and I'd be curious to know the land hunger of Bantu groups outside the Nguni groups---settling Nguni groups in the Freestate or old Transvaal areas, or worse yet, old Cape, is begging for an ethnic explosion, and I doubt that the ANC would do something that stupid. A much more likely land redistribution would be to end the (both apartheid and ANC sponsored) feudal land-holding patterns in the rural black areas---almost half of RSA's black population is still peasant.

    If the issue of white farms ever does arise, an equitable solution would be co-operatives, as it is a tiny minority of whites who still have land, and the rest of us Afrikaners have been landless since more or less the second Anglo-Boer war. Let everyone try their hand, and avoid stupid decisions of ownership transfer that end up destroying capital.

    You’re a mendacious troll. The apartheid government did not “take farms from blacks to give to whites”. Under its homelands consolidation policy black owned land was exchanged for white owned land. As it happened, blacks had a net gain of land and most white farmers weren’t even compensated in land, but had to accept whatever monetary settlement the government forced on them.

    And the Afrikaner Kwashiorkor problem? I’d like to see proof there ever was such a thing under the NP government.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    The consolidation program did involve moving some bantus to the homelands. The apartheid government solved the Kwashiorkor problem, that had largely arisen due to the second Anglo-Boer war and urbanisation during the great depression, by 1969. Where am I being mendacious? References regarding exchanges? Here is an anti-apartheid speech that acknowledges that white children got Kwashiorkor---their complaint is that black children are far more likely to get it than white children.
    , @Johan Meyer
    Some more data---see pages 16 and 17 for official Kwashiorkor data for 1967. For a discussion focused more on coloureds, but mentions the white Kwashiorkor problem that the apartheid government inherited, see references on page 8.
    , @Johan Meyer
    One respect in which I was wrong, is that the bulk of land theft, in standard colonial style, predates apartheid. This author makes the same mistake---the (native) land act predates the first apartheid government---1913 and amended in 1936 versus 1948.
  133. @Johan Meyer
    Bantu Copper metallurgy (missing discussion of Khoi San, but oh well), and Bantu Iron working, whether you like it or not.

    As for the anti-Ukrainian famine that claimed more Russians than Ukrainians, well, what can I say? Tauger is one of many sources that call bs. Oh, and the Russians in eastern and southern Ukraine come mainly from the same time as the Ukrainians---Catherine the Great used Ukrainians, Russians, and to a lesser extent Greeks, Serbs and Romanians, to repopulate the land, after the slave raids of the Tatars. On the Soviet gold matter, nice try; the records of the laws banning gold trade remain.

    Evidence of sub-Saharan metallurgy is inconclusive at best. It was most likely introduced by Carthaginian settlements or traders traveling throughout the Sahara:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=oMgkHFiBTMEC&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=no+metallurgy+in+sub+saharan+africa&source=bl&ots=r30AVuU3nu&sig=VlGArNDFbwPo24nkR-6jdbKXJDY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZur2x29vTAhUI_4MKHSzwAAc4ChDoAQhRMAg#v=onepage&q=no%20metallurgy%20in%20sub%20saharan%20africa&f=false

    The seemingly European afrocentrist sources you provide make the threadbare claim that since some copper artifacts were discovered that this must stand as evidence of rudimentary metallurgy. Even if true this knowledge and craft was long lost when Europeans arrived as there’s no account that I’m aware of where Europeans documented its knowledge and use by the black natives they came in contact with.

    You made the bold claim that the Zulus, Xhosa and other tribes were practicing metallurgists when the Boers and Europeans arrived. You have not provided incontrovertible proof of the claim that not only were they kangs, but metallurgists too.

    Regarding the holodomor, believe what you want if it makes you feel good. Usually it’s Jews who deny it ever happened since they had a hand in it. The same Jews who go bat shit crazy when you question their holocaust stories.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    You should have continued reading the source that you linked---by page nine, it contradicts your claim, and argued for multiple separate iron working/smelting technologies being developed in the subsaharan area---own goal. Continuing in that vein, another reference, that is recent. A thought experiment suggests itself---even if the technology were ultimately borrowed, did the Bantu fail to use it?

    I take it that the word kangs, which you use apparently as a noun, is a verbal phrase meaning "I[the user] cannot read my own references beyond the first page that I link," which suggests that further grammatical analysis of the word is not possible, and that it is a root morpheme. Which variety of English is that?

    Here is a review of the relevant book which is cited in the "Afrocentric" page that I linked, regarding colonial witnesses to Bantu smelting, namely Wikipedia. The book was published in 1937, by the academic publisher Banta. Yet you mean to tell me that this was Afro-Centrism! Justify yourself.
  134. @joef

    You could save yourself some time and just respond that “We wuz kangs!” and “Da white man is da blue eyed devil”.
     
    LOL...I remember these ghetto statements: "We were all Kings & Queens in Africa before the White man arrived"... of course using the Socratic Method of Inquiry, it did not hold up very well to the first question: "Really, then who did all the work?; because if that was true, then there would be nobody to get anything else done, and you would all starve to death".

    After a flustered incoherent response I would finally interrupt with "It was the Kings of Africa who actually sold you to the White man as slaves" (probably getting rid of their criminal, crazy, and lazy in the process). And it was the stupid White man who purchased these afros, condemning their own future White descendants to a lifetime of financial servitude through endless entitlements support.

    But low IQ alone is not a big problem if someone is willing to use that low IQ for something productive. There are plenty of low IQ people, of other races, who find something to contribute that benefits society. It's the fact that radical afros refuse to get along in civilized society, while being parasitical to the system at large, believing there is an infinite source of free lunch.

    And to pay for these endless source of radical Afro entitlements, modern money junkie government has become a glorified revenue collector. Govt is constantly looking for new ways to pick our collective pockets through taxes, fines, fees, forfeitures, and tolls, to pay for the unsustainable afro welfare state. While our political masters, and the MSM, accuse us all of racism, and use war talk to distract us from our domestic problems (economic, low employment, high crime, high taxes, and race relations).

    In the last half century radical African Americans have killed more of their fellow citizens than all the terrorist actions against us combined. Our primary war is not overseas; it is at home with domestic combatants! The choice to be hostile was not ours (we are too busy struggling), but initiated by the radical Afro Americans themselves (abetted by the New Left and SJW).

    If radical afro americans would stop their bad behavior, we would stop criticizing them. Yet they just don't seem to get it... they only demand more & more ad infinitum. And while our political leaders continue to kick this dysfunctional can down the road, it will eventually break the country's economic back.

    If radical afro americans would stop their bad behavior, we would stop criticizing them

    Yes, but you see they won’t since that would be acting white and selling out. So they act all hostile and gangsta to stay true to their peeps. There will never be peace between us unless and until there is separation.

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    • Replies: @joef

    There will never be peace between us unless and until there is separation.
     
    That could be a solution if it would be allowed to happen peacefully. But the hysterical liberal academia & MSM will scream racism. The politicians won't give up pandering to the black vote, so they will never allow separation, rather keeping radical afros on welfare forever on our dime. And radical afro americans themselves will never give up their free lunch willingly. In other words we are stuck with them, and this parasitical relationship will eventually drain us to national bankruptcy (whenever that will be).

    'Pay up & shut up' is our leaders unspoken mantra towards us [Pay up your taxes, and shut up your complaints re: tax increases, and radical afro aggressions ... we need to keep this afro welfare system going (at your expense)]. The good news is this cannot last forever; but the bad news is that we will be economically exhausted when it does end.

    When this happens, and you add the racial balkanization to the economic turmoil, the situation will become explosive. As bad as Venezuela is, they do not have a subculture of hostile hateful unappreciative unproductive radical afros; we do! The unrest from economic scarcity is bad enough, but an added afro declared race war is much worse. Keep your guns, because you may need them (of course the radical afros won't like a race war when their potential victims shoot back ... but then they can attack the unarmed leftist/SJW instead... no real loss there).

    The most unfortunate part of all this is: none of us asked for this; it was forced upon us by our greedy elites, naive libs, resentful leftist/sjw, and ungrateful afros. The choice to avoid this is not in our hands, but theirs. If they are unwilling to reform their blame whitey free lunch attitudes, then when this all falls apart, we need the resolve to overcome a prolonged struggle until the problem can finally be rectified (and rebuild from there).

    If African Americans and liberals (not the New Left and SJW, who are a total lost cause) truly want peace, then they should stop encouraging the modern american mythology propaganda on racism. Unfortunately it doesn't appear they are going to change their ways, while our political elites eventually kicks this can off the cliff. Racial Balkanization plus economic decline is a very bad combination for this country. I wish it was different, but its not.

  135. @Johan Meyer
    We didn't put you in our mines; we (our government) put you in Anglo-American (both the company, and the ethno-nationalist ownership structure) mines. As well as our own. Perhaps you have forgotten that a big part of what caused our racial nationalism to grow was competition in the mining labour sector. Have you forgotten the white miner strikes on the rand (e.g. the one for which de la Rey called in the airforce to bomb the white mine workers), including against bringing black peasants to become mine workers? My one great grandfather was a coal miner (labourer) on the rand into the 1970s. Perhaps you have never been involved in blue collar labour.

    Are you perhaps a comfortable middle class individual, trying to make up for your comfort by shouting nationalist slogans? Now that you've gentrified the poorer white neighbourhoods after the end of the group areas act (Parow west used to be rather poor, for example, when it still was majority white), you seek something else to own, and rather than face the reality that your FIRE sector investments do nothing to develop the real economy, hence the continued poverty of the majority. I always found it telling to read the analysis of Steve Biko about middle class blacks being forced by apartheid to live with their poorer coethnics, but his suggestion that that lead to nationalist consciousness was always dubious---your type of nationalism is always a response to failure of the economy.

    You are the stereotype of the new nationalist elite discussed by Fanon. Oh, and about your complaints about Indians and other Asians, may it please you to know that Nigeria and Uganda kicked out their Indian populations; both proceeded to slaughter their own African ethnic populations, both with western support, and the former also with Soviet support (Biafra in the case of Nigeria, and the Nilo-Saharan ethnic groups in the case of Uganda). Nigeria is developing now, but they've had to swallow their pride, and bring in some foreigners. And Nigeria (and Kenya, including Bantu and Nilo-Saharan ethnic groups) have started the process of developing their own technological skillsets, including programming shops. Incidentally, so have we Afrikaners, and have some coloured-owned companies. I would not be surprised to find South African Bantus that have done the same, but I am confident that you are not involved in such enterprises.

    “Indians and other Asians”

    Dunno how this *bizarre* meme ever got started.

    That’s like calling Norse, “Asiatics like the Eskimo”.

    Indians are not Asian. They are either *Aryan* (500 million) or *Dravidian* (another 500 million).

    The *Aryans* (around 400 or so different tribes in India) are Swastika and Laltika using ,(v)Edda religion following Indo-European (Indo of course specifically means India). Aryan, Swastika and Laltika are all native Hindi/Sanksrit words, and the Nazis (both original and modern) speak Hindi words on purpose to emphasize this conneciton.

    Savitri Devi wore a Sari and the Laltika on her forehead. Her books were sold very recently (and prominently) by Bob Pierce of the National Alliance. You can’t really get any more right wing than the guy who *wrote* the Turner Diaries.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    The linguistic Aryans have substantial Dravidian genetics, and in parts of Gujerat and Bengal, the people look entirely Dravidian. Already in Sanskrit there are Dravidian constructions (iti/Ergative grammar in the past tense, with accusative grammar in the present). Your argument is on the level of claiming that US blacks are Indo-European, because they speak an Indo-European language.
  136. @Wizard of Oz
    There's a (from memory) June 1864 letter in Tbe Times from Darwin's cousin Francis Galton headed "Africa for the Chinese" in which Galton makes a case for encouragong Chinesr to help develop Africa in preference to temperate climate Europeans and, specifically, Indians, but especially Africans

    “specifically, Indians, but especially Africans”

    That’s like saying Norse but especially Africans.

    Aryans (ie Indians) and Africans are about as far apart as is possible to get.

    Aryans (ie Indians) are so instrumental to European religion/culture/language, that the word “Indo” was specifically added to “European” to get the phrase “Indo-European”. Indo specifically means India.

    v(Edda) books are the Hindu religion. A almost identical book, with the same name (Edda, !!), in an almost identical language as Indic, featuring similar deities..is the Norse religion.

    Those are the same Aryans as the Aryans of today btw. There was almost zero interracial marriages between Aryans and any other tribes. This apartheid is called the Caste System and has maintained its core strength for over 5000 years.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    You misread me. Galton was specific about preferring Chinese to Indians for the orderly and energetic development of Africa but his real disdain was reservef for Africans. "Palavering savages" is an expression which comes to mind - maybe misremembered but not I think in substance.
  137. @Avery
    {...white nationalists who call for the ethnic cleansing and genocide of ethnic minorities in Europe....}


    For example?

    Remember White Muslim Traditionalist, the Arabs/Muslims stole all of Northern Africa, the Levant and Turkey from the Greeks, Romans and Christians. When are you guys going to acknowledge that fact, never mind giving back those lands?

    Also, the biggest slavers in the world were the Ottoman Turks. 18,000,000 compared to 368,000 shipped to America.

    Also, there were no Blacks/Bantus in Southern Africa when the whites showed up. There were the Hottentots. The Whites showed up from the sea in the south, and the Black Africans came down from the North like the Germanic tribes came into the Roman Empire. The Hottentots were overwhelmed and swamped.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    The Khoi San groups, such as the Hottentots, were mainly in what became Cape province. Evidence that the Bantu groups entered what became Natal, Eastern Cape, Transvaal, Swaziland, and Orange Freestate after this period? Care to explain the very large Khoi San ancestry of the Nguni Bantus given your chronology, or will you duck the question like everyone else who makes these claims?
  138. @KenH

    If radical afro americans would stop their bad behavior, we would stop criticizing them
     
    Yes, but you see they won't since that would be acting white and selling out. So they act all hostile and gangsta to stay true to their peeps. There will never be peace between us unless and until there is separation.

    There will never be peace between us unless and until there is separation.

    That could be a solution if it would be allowed to happen peacefully. But the hysterical liberal academia & MSM will scream racism. The politicians won’t give up pandering to the black vote, so they will never allow separation, rather keeping radical afros on welfare forever on our dime. And radical afro americans themselves will never give up their free lunch willingly. In other words we are stuck with them, and this parasitical relationship will eventually drain us to national bankruptcy (whenever that will be).

    ‘Pay up & shut up’ is our leaders unspoken mantra towards us [Pay up your taxes, and shut up your complaints re: tax increases, and radical afro aggressions ... we need to keep this afro welfare system going (at your expense)]. The good news is this cannot last forever; but the bad news is that we will be economically exhausted when it does end.

    When this happens, and you add the racial balkanization to the economic turmoil, the situation will become explosive. As bad as Venezuela is, they do not have a subculture of hostile hateful unappreciative unproductive radical afros; we do! The unrest from economic scarcity is bad enough, but an added afro declared race war is much worse. Keep your guns, because you may need them (of course the radical afros won’t like a race war when their potential victims shoot back … but then they can attack the unarmed leftist/SJW instead… no real loss there).

    The most unfortunate part of all this is: none of us asked for this; it was forced upon us by our greedy elites, naive libs, resentful leftist/sjw, and ungrateful afros. The choice to avoid this is not in our hands, but theirs. If they are unwilling to reform their blame whitey free lunch attitudes, then when this all falls apart, we need the resolve to overcome a prolonged struggle until the problem can finally be rectified (and rebuild from there).

    If African Americans and liberals (not the New Left and SJW, who are a total lost cause) truly want peace, then they should stop encouraging the modern american mythology propaganda on racism. Unfortunately it doesn’t appear they are going to change their ways, while our political elites eventually kicks this can off the cliff. Racial Balkanization plus economic decline is a very bad combination for this country. I wish it was different, but its not.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Eric the Red
    I'm in agreement with most of what you say. The only alternative I would offer is to not divorce segregation from welfare. In fact, use the continuation of welfare as the carrot to move to a segregated area.

    All blacks on any form of government assistance must move to one state, e.g. Michigan in order to keep the freebies flowing. This includes all blacks employed by government, and all direct family members. They will have one year to make the move, and every moving company that takes part will get federal contracts to enable the migration. After that year, all government assistance/employment will cease except in that state, and any blacks subsequently arrested elsewhere and found to be unemployed will be forcibly relocated. For the maybe 5% of blacks still remaining in other states, it will behoove them to fit into the predominant white culture as much as possible.
  139. @Robard
    You're a mendacious troll. The apartheid government did not "take farms from blacks to give to whites". Under its homelands consolidation policy black owned land was exchanged for white owned land. As it happened, blacks had a net gain of land and most white farmers weren't even compensated in land, but had to accept whatever monetary settlement the government forced on them.

    And the Afrikaner Kwashiorkor problem? I'd like to see proof there ever was such a thing under the NP government.

    The consolidation program did involve moving some bantus to the homelands. The apartheid government solved the Kwashiorkor problem, that had largely arisen due to the second Anglo-Boer war and urbanisation during the great depression, by 1969. Where am I being mendacious? References regarding exchanges? Here is an anti-apartheid speech that acknowledges that white children got Kwashiorkor—their complaint is that black children are far more likely to get it than white children.

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  140. @Taurus Bulba
    Remember White Muslim Traditionalist, the Arabs/Muslims stole all of Northern Africa, the Levant and Turkey from the Greeks, Romans and Christians. When are you guys going to acknowledge that fact, never mind giving back those lands?

    Also, the biggest slavers in the world were the Ottoman Turks. 18,000,000 compared to 368,000 shipped to America.

    Also, there were no Blacks/Bantus in Southern Africa when the whites showed up. There were the Hottentots. The Whites showed up from the sea in the south, and the Black Africans came down from the North like the Germanic tribes came into the Roman Empire. The Hottentots were overwhelmed and swamped.

    The Khoi San groups, such as the Hottentots, were mainly in what became Cape province. Evidence that the Bantu groups entered what became Natal, Eastern Cape, Transvaal, Swaziland, and Orange Freestate after this period? Care to explain the very large Khoi San ancestry of the Nguni Bantus given your chronology, or will you duck the question like everyone else who makes these claims?

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    • Replies: @Robard

    Care to explain the very large Khoi San ancestry of the Nguni Bantus given your chronology, or will you duck the question like everyone else who makes these claims?
     
    I think how it usually went down all over the world is that mostly the men were wiped out while mostly the females were spared.
    , @Eagle Eye

    The Khoi San groups, such as the Hottentots, were mainly in what became Cape province. Evidence that the Bantu groups entered what became Natal, Eastern Cape, Transvaal, Swaziland, and Orange Freestate after this period?
     
    Khoi San populations are found in pockets much farther North, and were probably dominant (alongside some others, e.g. pygmies) before being swamped by the Bantu migrations.

    Within South Africa, you seem to agree that there was no substantial Bantu population in Cape Province when the Boer settlers arrived. Bantus (Xhosa and Zulu) were apparently present East of the Fish River, but in much lower numbers.

    Linguistically, the Xhosa and Zulu must have picked up their clicks quite a while ago (at least 1,000 years ago, probably rather earlier), but the mixing with Khoi San could have occurred farther North, e.g. in present-day Tanzania, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, etc. Population pressure from later Bantu migrants would have pushed the Xhosa and Zulu South.

    Boers created conditions that encouraged later in-migration of Xhosa and Zulu West of the Fish River.
  141. @fooco1
    "Indians and other Asians"

    Dunno how this *bizarre* meme ever got started.

    That's like calling Norse, "Asiatics like the Eskimo".

    Indians are not Asian. They are either *Aryan* (500 million) or *Dravidian* (another 500 million).

    The *Aryans* (around 400 or so different tribes in India) are Swastika and Laltika using ,(v)Edda religion following Indo-European (Indo of course specifically means India). Aryan, Swastika and Laltika are all native Hindi/Sanksrit words, and the Nazis (both original and modern) speak Hindi words on purpose to emphasize this conneciton.

    Savitri Devi wore a Sari and the Laltika on her forehead. Her books were sold very recently (and prominently) by Bob Pierce of the National Alliance. You can't really get any more right wing than the guy who *wrote* the Turner Diaries.

    The linguistic Aryans have substantial Dravidian genetics, and in parts of Gujerat and Bengal, the people look entirely Dravidian. Already in Sanskrit there are Dravidian constructions (iti/Ergative grammar in the past tense, with accusative grammar in the present). Your argument is on the level of claiming that US blacks are Indo-European, because they speak an Indo-European language.

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  142. @fooco1
    "specifically, Indians, but especially Africans"

    That's like saying Norse but especially Africans.

    Aryans (ie Indians) and Africans are about as far apart as is possible to get.

    Aryans (ie Indians) are so instrumental to European religion/culture/language, that the word "Indo" was specifically added to "European" to get the phrase "Indo-European". Indo specifically means India.

    v(Edda) books are the Hindu religion. A almost identical book, with the same name (Edda, !!), in an almost identical language as Indic, featuring similar deities..is the Norse religion.

    Those are the same Aryans as the Aryans of today btw. There was almost zero interracial marriages between Aryans and any other tribes. This apartheid is called the Caste System and has maintained its core strength for over 5000 years.

    You misread me. Galton was specific about preferring Chinese to Indians for the orderly and energetic development of Africa but his real disdain was reservef for Africans. “Palavering savages” is an expression which comes to mind – maybe misremembered but not I think in substance.

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  143. At this point, whites in South Africa have only one viable option:
    they should move en masse to a defensible geographic area and unilaterally proclaim it to be an independent state. Back it up with as much firepower as they can buy, beg, borrow, or steal. Then make sure non-whites are never allowed inside it again.

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  144. @KenH
    Evidence of sub-Saharan metallurgy is inconclusive at best. It was most likely introduced by Carthaginian settlements or traders traveling throughout the Sahara:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=oMgkHFiBTMEC&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=no+metallurgy+in+sub+saharan+africa&source=bl&ots=r30AVuU3nu&sig=VlGArNDFbwPo24nkR-6jdbKXJDY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZur2x29vTAhUI_4MKHSzwAAc4ChDoAQhRMAg#v=onepage&q=no%20metallurgy%20in%20sub%20saharan%20africa&f=false

    The seemingly European afrocentrist sources you provide make the threadbare claim that since some copper artifacts were discovered that this must stand as evidence of rudimentary metallurgy. Even if true this knowledge and craft was long lost when Europeans arrived as there's no account that I'm aware of where Europeans documented its knowledge and use by the black natives they came in contact with.

    You made the bold claim that the Zulus, Xhosa and other tribes were practicing metallurgists when the Boers and Europeans arrived. You have not provided incontrovertible proof of the claim that not only were they kangs, but metallurgists too.

    Regarding the holodomor, believe what you want if it makes you feel good. Usually it's Jews who deny it ever happened since they had a hand in it. The same Jews who go bat shit crazy when you question their holocaust stories.

    You should have continued reading the source that you linked—by page nine, it contradicts your claim, and argued for multiple separate iron working/smelting technologies being developed in the subsaharan area—own goal. Continuing in that vein, another reference, that is recent. A thought experiment suggests itself—even if the technology were ultimately borrowed, did the Bantu fail to use it?

    I take it that the word kangs, which you use apparently as a noun, is a verbal phrase meaning “I[the user] cannot read my own references beyond the first page that I link,” which suggests that further grammatical analysis of the word is not possible, and that it is a root morpheme. Which variety of English is that?

    Here is a review of the relevant book which is cited in the “Afrocentric” page that I linked, regarding colonial witnesses to Bantu smelting, namely Wikipedia. The book was published in 1937, by the academic publisher Banta. Yet you mean to tell me that this was Afro-Centrism! Justify yourself.

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    • Replies: @KenH
    Pages nine and ten are not included, so I don't know what you think you're seeing. The source deals with two hypotheses regarding metallurgy in sub Saharan Africa, one of which is that it originated far north of sub Saharan Africa and worked its way south. It's up to the reader to decide which one they find more compelling.

    The case for an indigenous source of metallurgy seems to rest on the discovery of some copper trinkets which aren't anything elaborate or special.


    I take it that the word kangs
     
    We wuz kangs: Kangs is ebonics for kings
    English translation: We were kings

    Here is a review of the relevant book which is cited in the “Afrocentric” page that I linked, regarding colonial witnesses to Bantu smelting,
     
    The only page available from your link has no eyewitness accounts to sub Saharan negro metallurgy. It just states that they had some shallow mining capability to use it as a medium of exchange.
  145. @Robard
    You're a mendacious troll. The apartheid government did not "take farms from blacks to give to whites". Under its homelands consolidation policy black owned land was exchanged for white owned land. As it happened, blacks had a net gain of land and most white farmers weren't even compensated in land, but had to accept whatever monetary settlement the government forced on them.

    And the Afrikaner Kwashiorkor problem? I'd like to see proof there ever was such a thing under the NP government.

    Some more data—see pages 16 and 17 for official Kwashiorkor data for 1967. For a discussion focused more on coloureds, but mentions the white Kwashiorkor problem that the apartheid government inherited, see references on page 8.

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    • Replies: @Robard
    As per your source, in 1967 there were 7 cases of the disease among whites. How is that an "Afrikaner kwashiorkor problem"?
  146. @Robard
    You're a mendacious troll. The apartheid government did not "take farms from blacks to give to whites". Under its homelands consolidation policy black owned land was exchanged for white owned land. As it happened, blacks had a net gain of land and most white farmers weren't even compensated in land, but had to accept whatever monetary settlement the government forced on them.

    And the Afrikaner Kwashiorkor problem? I'd like to see proof there ever was such a thing under the NP government.

    One respect in which I was wrong, is that the bulk of land theft, in standard colonial style, predates apartheid. This author makes the same mistake—the (native) land act predates the first apartheid government—1913 and amended in 1936 versus 1948.

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    • Replies: @Robard
    Despite the commonly held myth, the Natives Land Act of 1913 not "steal" any land from blacks, in fact the intention was quite the opposite: to preserve the land held by blacks in order to stem the growing influx into urban areas by landless blacks. To that end the act prohibited any commercial acquisition of black owned land by whites and vice versa. Later amendments to the act all worked on the same logic, ie to increase the land available to blacks and to consolidate tribal areas so as to facilitate eventual self-government.
  147. @Johan Meyer

    Like I said, other countries may have different problems, different circumstances, not related to inequality but affecting the crime rates. And gini – one number – can’t describe the severity of the socioeconomic situation.

    Anyway, what’s with the lead paint thing? How can lead paint force someone to commit murder? Social phenomena have social causes.
     
    Ex cathedra assertion (social phenomena have social causes), which is unlikely, based on the various correlations found, including ethnicity. A biological cause is more probable. The HBD crowd suggest genetics, although any other cause correlated with genetics is a contender. Infant lead poisoning leads to reduced impulse control, which often leads to murder and other violence being perpetrated. Your ex cathedra assertion is a gimmick to avoid defining social, yet society is a particular collection of biological individuals.

    As to your idea that one number cannot describe a phenomenon, in some cases it can. Otherwise you should be able to complain that the murder rate cannot describe the murder phenomenon. It is an intellectual cul-de-sac. Gini is a monotonically increasing measure of inequality, thus it should have predictive power for countable phenomena that are produced by inequality, e.g. as you allege, murder. Which it does, but not nearly as much predictive power as the other measures that I listed. Which suggests that there is a causal connection between inequality and murder, but more likely of a shared cause variety, rather than that one causes the other. I suggest that the shared cause is lead poisoning in infancy, leading to intellectual deficiency, which then leads to inequality beyond what would otherwise be expected, as well as greater violence.

    yet society is a particular collection of biological individuals

    Society is not a collection of individuals, in the same sense as individual is not a collection of atoms. Society is an evolving self-organizing structure.

    Infant lead poisoning leads to reduced impulse control

    To what extent this may or may not be true I have no idea, but societies have evolved mechanisms to compensate, to deal with this sort of things: taboos on consuming alcohol and drugs, ban on certain kinds of weapons, body-concealing garments for women, various other taboos and disincentives for resolving conflicts with violence, as well as ways to minimize, avoid, or at least to mask these conflicts (taboos on showing off/wealth-flashing in Scandinavia, for example).

    Avoiding a close coexistence of great wealth and extreme poverty is obviously one of these mechanisms, leading, for example, to emergence of so-called ‘welfare state’. South African society has failed in this respect. It’s a failed society.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    You do not take your own argument seriously---if you did, you would apply the modus tollens, and reject your own argument. Venezuela has lower income inequality, and until recently at least (before the oil price dropped) rather generous social programs, yet about double the murder rate.
  148. @Johan Meyer
    Some more data---see pages 16 and 17 for official Kwashiorkor data for 1967. For a discussion focused more on coloureds, but mentions the white Kwashiorkor problem that the apartheid government inherited, see references on page 8.

    As per your source, in 1967 there were 7 cases of the disease among whites. How is that an “Afrikaner kwashiorkor problem”?

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    It was the tail end of the problem. By 1969, the problem was considered solved, although a few cases were still detected in the 1970s. I surmise that it was much larger earlier, based on the literature.

    To the moderator: the other copy of this comment was meant to be directed at Robard. Please delete that copy.
  149. @Johan Meyer
    One respect in which I was wrong, is that the bulk of land theft, in standard colonial style, predates apartheid. This author makes the same mistake---the (native) land act predates the first apartheid government---1913 and amended in 1936 versus 1948.

    Despite the commonly held myth, the Natives Land Act of 1913 not “steal” any land from blacks, in fact the intention was quite the opposite: to preserve the land held by blacks in order to stem the growing influx into urban areas by landless blacks. To that end the act prohibited any commercial acquisition of black owned land by whites and vice versa. Later amendments to the act all worked on the same logic, ie to increase the land available to blacks and to consolidate tribal areas so as to facilitate eventual self-government.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    A reference for this claim? Could you also comment on magistrate RN Harley?


    Winburg magistrate RN Harley told the commission as it was deliberating: “With increasing stocks and herds, the native has become less inclined to be a servant and more inclined to be the semi-independent nomad.. while the farmer has difficulty in obtaining servants… This system has instilled into the native the belief that he has an equal right with the whites to hire and purchase land.”
     
    The Native Land Act also prevented blacks from increasing their holdings.

    I could not find an online link to the commission's hearings.
    , @Johan Meyer
    There was another commission after the act was passed. See in particular page 3, though I've not read the whole document yet.
  150. @Johan Meyer
    The Khoi San groups, such as the Hottentots, were mainly in what became Cape province. Evidence that the Bantu groups entered what became Natal, Eastern Cape, Transvaal, Swaziland, and Orange Freestate after this period? Care to explain the very large Khoi San ancestry of the Nguni Bantus given your chronology, or will you duck the question like everyone else who makes these claims?

    Care to explain the very large Khoi San ancestry of the Nguni Bantus given your chronology, or will you duck the question like everyone else who makes these claims?

    I think how it usually went down all over the world is that mostly the men were wiped out while mostly the females were spared.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    In some cases perhaps, though the Nguni Bantu have 3-5% Khoi San related Y-chromosones. Then there are other Bantu ethnic groups, in particular in Namibia, that have far greater Khoi San Y Chromosones. See the map in the wiki article on haplotype A, although the particular varients of haplotype A that predominate among these Bantu might no longer be associated with Khoi San (gene flow in the opposite direction---Khoi San taking Bantu women?)---the ethnic distribution of Namibia suggests that there aren't nearly enough Khoi San (Nama, Damara, !Kung and similar) for that percentage to hold for Khoi San alone.

    For general interest, a paper on haplotype A---certain (Caucasian black) east Africans have Y chromosones that are as basal as the Khoi San, which to my non-specialist self suggests that the Caucasian phenotype developed in Africa before outmigration.
    , @Johan Meyer
    Your response, though, still does not seem to address the chronology that Taurus Bulba claimed.
  151. @joef

    There will never be peace between us unless and until there is separation.
     
    That could be a solution if it would be allowed to happen peacefully. But the hysterical liberal academia & MSM will scream racism. The politicians won't give up pandering to the black vote, so they will never allow separation, rather keeping radical afros on welfare forever on our dime. And radical afro americans themselves will never give up their free lunch willingly. In other words we are stuck with them, and this parasitical relationship will eventually drain us to national bankruptcy (whenever that will be).

    'Pay up & shut up' is our leaders unspoken mantra towards us [Pay up your taxes, and shut up your complaints re: tax increases, and radical afro aggressions ... we need to keep this afro welfare system going (at your expense)]. The good news is this cannot last forever; but the bad news is that we will be economically exhausted when it does end.

    When this happens, and you add the racial balkanization to the economic turmoil, the situation will become explosive. As bad as Venezuela is, they do not have a subculture of hostile hateful unappreciative unproductive radical afros; we do! The unrest from economic scarcity is bad enough, but an added afro declared race war is much worse. Keep your guns, because you may need them (of course the radical afros won't like a race war when their potential victims shoot back ... but then they can attack the unarmed leftist/SJW instead... no real loss there).

    The most unfortunate part of all this is: none of us asked for this; it was forced upon us by our greedy elites, naive libs, resentful leftist/sjw, and ungrateful afros. The choice to avoid this is not in our hands, but theirs. If they are unwilling to reform their blame whitey free lunch attitudes, then when this all falls apart, we need the resolve to overcome a prolonged struggle until the problem can finally be rectified (and rebuild from there).

    If African Americans and liberals (not the New Left and SJW, who are a total lost cause) truly want peace, then they should stop encouraging the modern american mythology propaganda on racism. Unfortunately it doesn't appear they are going to change their ways, while our political elites eventually kicks this can off the cliff. Racial Balkanization plus economic decline is a very bad combination for this country. I wish it was different, but its not.

    I’m in agreement with most of what you say. The only alternative I would offer is to not divorce segregation from welfare. In fact, use the continuation of welfare as the carrot to move to a segregated area.

    All blacks on any form of government assistance must move to one state, e.g. Michigan in order to keep the freebies flowing. This includes all blacks employed by government, and all direct family members. They will have one year to make the move, and every moving company that takes part will get federal contracts to enable the migration. After that year, all government assistance/employment will cease except in that state, and any blacks subsequently arrested elsewhere and found to be unemployed will be forcibly relocated. For the maybe 5% of blacks still remaining in other states, it will behoove them to fit into the predominant white culture as much as possible.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    At least get your statistics right (ultimate source is US census). You seem awfully inclined to move ethnic groups around. Considering that the vast majority of employed blacks are in the private sector, and that, to the extent that these employed blacks are dependent on governmental programs, it is on the basis of low wage private sector employers' instructions (Walmart being notorious), much like their non-black colleagues, your behaviour is strange, to say the least.
  152. @Mark Green
    This was a very strong article. But in true Israeli fashion, Ms. Mercer cannot bring herself to describe the ongoing targeting of white farmers by blacks for what it truly is: genocide.

    And why is this? It's possible that Mercer cannot bear the thought of diluting her special status as a member of the world's most precious victim class by sharing that special word.

    Thus the systematic murder of white farmer by blacks doesn't earn that special label. Instead, she calls it 'ethnocide'--as if two ethnic groups of the same race are killing one-another. But that is not the case.

    It's genocide, Ms. Mercer. This is race-driven and race-targeted murder. Black on white.

    And these murders are particularly egregious since this is not a time of war. Indeed, these farmers are not attacking blacks and the white world is not collectively fomenting war against blacks. The same cannot be said of the more famous instance of genocide that occurred during WWII.

    The great 'non-racial' political experiment is underway in So. Africa. Whites are attempting peaceful coexistence as an unprotected minority in black-ruled So. Africa. But it's not working out very well. Whites are being exterminated.

    These white So. Africans deserve refugee status in Europe and America.

    Mark, could not agree more with your “deserving refugee status” comment.

    It is an awful shame to see such a wonderful country being destroyed by a bunch of Marxists within the ANC and the ongoing targeted genocide of white, mainly Afrikaner, farmers.

    Today SA has it’s ANC Marxist leadership, advocating a policy of mandated “redistribution” which will inevitably lead to following the Zimbabwe road map and the reintroduction of food shortages leading to massive levels of famine for the poor of any colour, race or creed, except for the elitist ANC leadership.

    In short, the ANC (Zuma et al) are essentially advocating that SA goes down the same road that Mugabe took Zimbabwe. The road to ruin and famine.

    Other recent day examples of the communist driven road to ruin include Venezuela, the USSR, Cuba, North Korea etc.. It is not their citizens the ANC leadership are trying to help, it is their need to hold onto power by beggaring the common man and women.

    http://reason.com/blog/2014/01/06/man-made-famine-in-zimbabwe-threatens-2

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  153. @Robard
    Despite the commonly held myth, the Natives Land Act of 1913 not "steal" any land from blacks, in fact the intention was quite the opposite: to preserve the land held by blacks in order to stem the growing influx into urban areas by landless blacks. To that end the act prohibited any commercial acquisition of black owned land by whites and vice versa. Later amendments to the act all worked on the same logic, ie to increase the land available to blacks and to consolidate tribal areas so as to facilitate eventual self-government.

    A reference for this claim? Could you also comment on magistrate RN Harley?

    Winburg magistrate RN Harley told the commission as it was deliberating: “With increasing stocks and herds, the native has become less inclined to be a servant and more inclined to be the semi-independent nomad.. while the farmer has difficulty in obtaining servants… This system has instilled into the native the belief that he has an equal right with the whites to hire and purchase land.”

    The Native Land Act also prevented blacks from increasing their holdings.

    I could not find an online link to the commission’s hearings.

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    • Replies: @Robard
    "Reference for this claim?" See: http://www.historicalpapers.wits.ac.za/inventories/inv_pdfo/A1655/A1655-Da3b-01-jpeg.pdf.

    As for Harley, he was only one of many different people who testified before the commission, some of whom were totally opposed to segregation.
  154. @Robard

    Care to explain the very large Khoi San ancestry of the Nguni Bantus given your chronology, or will you duck the question like everyone else who makes these claims?
     
    I think how it usually went down all over the world is that mostly the men were wiped out while mostly the females were spared.

    In some cases perhaps, though the Nguni Bantu have 3-5% Khoi San related Y-chromosones. Then there are other Bantu ethnic groups, in particular in Namibia, that have far greater Khoi San Y Chromosones. See the map in the wiki article on haplotype A, although the particular varients of haplotype A that predominate among these Bantu might no longer be associated with Khoi San (gene flow in the opposite direction—Khoi San taking Bantu women?)—the ethnic distribution of Namibia suggests that there aren’t nearly enough Khoi San (Nama, Damara, !Kung and similar) for that percentage to hold for Khoi San alone.

    For general interest, a paper on haplotype A—certain (Caucasian black) east Africans have Y chromosones that are as basal as the Khoi San, which to my non-specialist self suggests that the Caucasian phenotype developed in Africa before outmigration.

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    • Replies: @Robard
    I'm not really interested to get into the woods of genetic analysis, but the presence of Khoisan Y-chromosomes is not inconsistent with their tribes having been conquered by the Bantu. Male children could have been spared for slavery as well as the females. Maybe this is the origin of the tsotsi character in black folklore - about a midget demon who secretly impregnates women while they are asleep.
  155. @Eric the Red
    I'm in agreement with most of what you say. The only alternative I would offer is to not divorce segregation from welfare. In fact, use the continuation of welfare as the carrot to move to a segregated area.

    All blacks on any form of government assistance must move to one state, e.g. Michigan in order to keep the freebies flowing. This includes all blacks employed by government, and all direct family members. They will have one year to make the move, and every moving company that takes part will get federal contracts to enable the migration. After that year, all government assistance/employment will cease except in that state, and any blacks subsequently arrested elsewhere and found to be unemployed will be forcibly relocated. For the maybe 5% of blacks still remaining in other states, it will behoove them to fit into the predominant white culture as much as possible.

    At least get your statistics right (ultimate source is US census). You seem awfully inclined to move ethnic groups around. Considering that the vast majority of employed blacks are in the private sector, and that, to the extent that these employed blacks are dependent on governmental programs, it is on the basis of low wage private sector employers’ instructions (Walmart being notorious), much like their non-black colleagues, your behaviour is strange, to say the least.

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  156. @Mao Cheng Ji

    yet society is a particular collection of biological individuals
     
    Society is not a collection of individuals, in the same sense as individual is not a collection of atoms. Society is an evolving self-organizing structure.

    Infant lead poisoning leads to reduced impulse control
     
    To what extent this may or may not be true I have no idea, but societies have evolved mechanisms to compensate, to deal with this sort of things: taboos on consuming alcohol and drugs, ban on certain kinds of weapons, body-concealing garments for women, various other taboos and disincentives for resolving conflicts with violence, as well as ways to minimize, avoid, or at least to mask these conflicts (taboos on showing off/wealth-flashing in Scandinavia, for example).

    Avoiding a close coexistence of great wealth and extreme poverty is obviously one of these mechanisms, leading, for example, to emergence of so-called 'welfare state'. South African society has failed in this respect. It's a failed society.

    You do not take your own argument seriously—if you did, you would apply the modus tollens, and reject your own argument. Venezuela has lower income inequality, and until recently at least (before the oil price dropped) rather generous social programs, yet about double the murder rate.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji
    Venezuela has different problems, very high level of political instability, for example. I tried to explain it twice already; once again: I never said that poverty/inequality is the only possible cause of crime. It's a cause. And this seems quite obvious to me.

    Anyway, I find your approach way too numerical, too mechanical. Possibly your IQ is too high.
  157. @Robard
    Despite the commonly held myth, the Natives Land Act of 1913 not "steal" any land from blacks, in fact the intention was quite the opposite: to preserve the land held by blacks in order to stem the growing influx into urban areas by landless blacks. To that end the act prohibited any commercial acquisition of black owned land by whites and vice versa. Later amendments to the act all worked on the same logic, ie to increase the land available to blacks and to consolidate tribal areas so as to facilitate eventual self-government.

    There was another commission after the act was passed. See in particular page 3, though I’ve not read the whole document yet.

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    • Replies: @Robard
    Thanks for the link - very informative. While I could find nothing that supports your position, this paragraph completely proves mine as it explodes yours:

    27. In determining the areas which are to be set aside for exclusive occupation
    by Natives—and this, after all, was the task set the Commission— it has to be
    borne in mind that finality is aimed at, i.e., that the lands set apart for the Natives
    shall be reasonably sufficient not only for their present requirements but for all
    time, so that future readjustments of land areas may not be necessary; and the
    lands so assigned should be secured against European competition and interference.
  158. @Robard
    As per your source, in 1967 there were 7 cases of the disease among whites. How is that an "Afrikaner kwashiorkor problem"?

    It was the tail end of the problem. By 1969, the problem was considered solved, although a few cases were still detected in the 1970s. I surmise that it was much larger earlier, based on the literature.

    To the moderator: the other copy of this comment was meant to be directed at Robard. Please delete that copy.

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  159. @Johan Meyer
    You do not take your own argument seriously---if you did, you would apply the modus tollens, and reject your own argument. Venezuela has lower income inequality, and until recently at least (before the oil price dropped) rather generous social programs, yet about double the murder rate.

    Venezuela has different problems, very high level of political instability, for example. I tried to explain it twice already; once again: I never said that poverty/inequality is the only possible cause of crime. It’s a cause. And this seems quite obvious to me.

    Anyway, I find your approach way too numerical, too mechanical. Possibly your IQ is too high.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    Or maybe my approach has predictive success, i.e. works, unlike yours, which cannot even make a numerical prediction, and is an excuse to let horrendous social problems, such as infant lead poisoning, fester.
  160. @Johan Meyer
    You should have continued reading the source that you linked---by page nine, it contradicts your claim, and argued for multiple separate iron working/smelting technologies being developed in the subsaharan area---own goal. Continuing in that vein, another reference, that is recent. A thought experiment suggests itself---even if the technology were ultimately borrowed, did the Bantu fail to use it?

    I take it that the word kangs, which you use apparently as a noun, is a verbal phrase meaning "I[the user] cannot read my own references beyond the first page that I link," which suggests that further grammatical analysis of the word is not possible, and that it is a root morpheme. Which variety of English is that?

    Here is a review of the relevant book which is cited in the "Afrocentric" page that I linked, regarding colonial witnesses to Bantu smelting, namely Wikipedia. The book was published in 1937, by the academic publisher Banta. Yet you mean to tell me that this was Afro-Centrism! Justify yourself.

    Pages nine and ten are not included, so I don’t know what you think you’re seeing. The source deals with two hypotheses regarding metallurgy in sub Saharan Africa, one of which is that it originated far north of sub Saharan Africa and worked its way south. It’s up to the reader to decide which one they find more compelling.

    The case for an indigenous source of metallurgy seems to rest on the discovery of some copper trinkets which aren’t anything elaborate or special.

    I take it that the word kangs

    We wuz kangs: Kangs is ebonics for kings
    English translation: We were kings

    Here is a review of the relevant book which is cited in the “Afrocentric” page that I linked, regarding colonial witnesses to Bantu smelting,

    The only page available from your link has no eyewitness accounts to sub Saharan negro metallurgy. It just states that they had some shallow mining capability to use it as a medium of exchange.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    Google typically will cut off a page if it gets viewed too many times. Go find the book in a library. I will again link the review of that book that does cover eyewitnesses. Avoid the issue one more time, and I will conclude dishonesty on your part. Here is the link to the review. Go find the book, and then make your argument.
    , @Johan Meyer
    First off, I specifically linked a review of a book, published in 1937, whose entire subject matter is colonial witnesses of African iron smelting. Avoid this issue one more time, and I will assume dishonesty on your part. Here again is the link to the review. Go find the book, then comment on it.

    I can access page 9 just fine. What the author was doing on the page that you linked was provide the start of his literature review; he was merely including the view, expressed by some authors, that iron work had been invented elsewhere and brought to the proto-Bantu by traders.

    I shall quote from page 9:


    The development of the "classic" trans-Saharan trade took place during the first half of the first millennium A.D. (Garrard 1980, 1982), and exchange of Saharan salt and "Phoenician" iron implements for West African gold and slaves does not seem reliably chronicled for any time as early as the last millennium B.C. In the present state of our knowledge of early African metal-[line break]lurgy, the synchronous emergence of iron production technology in eastern as well as western Africa does not seem to be explicable within a hypothesis of a single center of origin.

    The somewhat more heterogeneous set of pholyphyletic hypotheses are based on the premise of local, autochthonous development (Lhote 1952, Diop 1968, Andah 1980). In its earliest stage, without substantive archaeo-[line break]logical evidence, the argument approaches a kind of wishful thinking. Never-[line break]theless, we can state the conditions underlying it. In the first place, iron ore sources are found widely distributed throughout the continent, and, second, there is an extraordinary diversity of African iron-producing traditions. The inference is that such diversity could not have arisen from a single source but that it is a product of a set of local experiments, causing a discontinuous distribution of traditional methods.

    The discussion by Diop (1968, 37) is particularly significant. After a re-[line break]view of the debate on the origins of iron metallurgy in Africa, she concluded, "Today, it thus seems proven that in Africa, traditional iron metallurgy is very old, widespread and autochthonous; however, it is still needed to iden-[line break]tify the cradles of the metallurgy, to date them more securely, and to high-[line break]light the hypothetical routes of iron throughout the continent." In other words, an early date for the emergence of African iron-working technology is suggested, and these early metallurgies were widespread and autochtho-[line break]nous. Their original cradles of innovation and subsequent routes of expan-[line break]sion are as yet unknown. In short, a hypothetical position has been posed as the basis for future inquiry.

     

    , @Johan Meyer
    I shall also quote from that book that was reviewed in the link that I have twice, and will now a third time link, here---I fetched it from a library.

    His first chapter relates to gold---he mentions that it was mined, including under the surface, and ancient remains have been found in the old Transvaal, and in ornaments around Great Zimbabwe, but it was otherwise exported to the coast.

    From page 17, where he begins his discussion of the archaeological record:

    Within the bend of the Niger lies the only large area where iron remains have been found associated with stone-using cultures. Detritus heaps examined by Desplagnes (77,78) on the Central Nigeran Plateau --- especially at Sumpi, Gourao, and Koulikoro --- are exemplified by the Koulikoro site, which yields, in addition to iron slag, incised pestles, and scrapers, and stone mills and mortars which have long been obsolete here. Sites which the natives of Koilikoro call "old workshops of smiths" show the same Neolithic inventory.
     

    He mentions similar antiquity smelters in former Khoisan territory on the next pages.


    On page 20, he starts with the historical record:


    When we come to the Middle Ages we find a curious reversal. Medieval commerce between India and East Africa is attested both by archaeological data --- such as the melange of Chinese porcelain, Persian glazes, and Indian trade beads at Zimbabwe (50) --- and by numerous passages in authors of the time. Biruni (90)12, writing in his History of India in the early years of the eleventh century, informs us that Somanat, the port of Kathiawar, had become especially important as a harbor for those who fared by sea between Sofala, in the country of the Zenj, and China. But the iron now seems to be flowing eastward instead of westward.

    Idrisi (86)13, in the second half of the twelfth century, says that the chief products of Zenj are iron and "tiger" skins.
     

    Starting on page 24, he discusses early travelers:

    Thus, though iron ore was plentiful in many parts of Natal, Gardiner (33)13 says that the Zulu exploited it only in the mountains around the headwaters of the Amatikula River. The BaVenda in the highlands of the Transvaal mined and smelted iron not only for themselves but for the BaThonga and other groups in Portuguese East (137)14. Livingstone (160) reported abundant iron ore in the Saloisho Hills, mined by many of the Thinte's BaLonda. The lower Zambezi has great quantities of specularite and rich black oxide. The latter occurs mainly as tears or rounded lumps, only slightly magnetic; and when present in river beds is conspicuous on the surface (160)15. The BaSenga, famous iron workers, had especially fine sources, some ore showing veins of pure metal (160).
     

    In the old days Ovambo smiths got their iron from the mines near Ukuanjama in Southern Angola; though nowadays, when access to these mines has been cut off, they rework scrap iron from European trade (110, 154). The Ondulu people in the Bilie district of Angola quarry their ore from a single mountain which is the center of hoe-making for a wide area (217). The Mobambi of the Katanga specialized so strongly in iron smelting that they neglected to exploit rich copper deposits in their neighborhood.
     

    On page 30, he begins his discussion of smelting techniques:

    Negroes usually make wrought iron rather than cast iron or steel. Wrought iron is produced in a pasty, not in a molten condition, is malleable, and contains so little carbon that it does not harden appreciably when suddenly cooled. Moreover, it is not homogeneous; it contains particles of slag, the non-metallic impurities of the ore, which because of the low temperature of smelting, have remained entangled in the iron.

    Sometimes, however, Negroes produce steel, either by accident or design. Many more native metallurgists will have to be interviewed and many more specimens analyzed before we can say how often they do so; but I have encountered several references to tempering and puddling --- that is, lessening the carbon content of iron by reheating --- and both Bellamy (26,27) for Yoruba and Stanley (245) for the Mashona and old Zimbabwe culture, have published accounts of Negro steel manufacture and analyses of the product. Bellamy's unique data will lead off my discussion of smelting methods; and Stanley's, which include microphotographic sections of native steel and iron, will be more intelligible if presented in a general discussion of Negro steel metallurgy, after we have finished with the grosser mechanical aspects of the smelting process.
     

    He then has several pages of discussion of local smelters, with diagrams, and chemical analysis of the ores and produced steels. A number of the designs involve melting to a good flow. He cites an account of Hottentot (Khoi San group) smelting on page 51.

    On page 52 he begins his discussion of bellows used in the furnaces. On page 53, there begins discussion of temperature control efforts to get steel rather than cast.

    In page 56 he begins his discussion of copper and tin mines, beginning with the ancient, and discussion continues with tin mines, and processing. On page 78 he begins his discussion of alloys. Manufactured bronze was found around Transvaal (I limit myself to southern African examples, though he goes all over subsaharan Africa), though brass was imported. A copper and lead alloy was used locally for ornaments. From page 82 he discusses casting methods.

    His discussion of smithing begins on page 89, and he discusses the working of spear shafts at some length. Pages 91-101 are a table of different smithing technologies, including hammers, tongs, and the like, of different ethnic groups. Starting on page 102, he discusses bellows, including the ethnic distribution of bag, drum and concertina bellows.

    Wire drawing developed or was imported twice, once along the east coast south to Natal, and as well in west Africa. Both the Great Zimbabwe ruins and other ruins contained drawn wire and wire drawing tools. Some of the west-African wire drawing ethnic groups also made chain, including iron chain.

    From page 114, a discussion follows on ethnic religious practices related to metallurgy.

  161. @KenH
    Pages nine and ten are not included, so I don't know what you think you're seeing. The source deals with two hypotheses regarding metallurgy in sub Saharan Africa, one of which is that it originated far north of sub Saharan Africa and worked its way south. It's up to the reader to decide which one they find more compelling.

    The case for an indigenous source of metallurgy seems to rest on the discovery of some copper trinkets which aren't anything elaborate or special.


    I take it that the word kangs
     
    We wuz kangs: Kangs is ebonics for kings
    English translation: We were kings

    Here is a review of the relevant book which is cited in the “Afrocentric” page that I linked, regarding colonial witnesses to Bantu smelting,
     
    The only page available from your link has no eyewitness accounts to sub Saharan negro metallurgy. It just states that they had some shallow mining capability to use it as a medium of exchange.

    Google typically will cut off a page if it gets viewed too many times. Go find the book in a library. I will again link the review of that book that does cover eyewitnesses. Avoid the issue one more time, and I will conclude dishonesty on your part. Here is the link to the review. Go find the book, and then make your argument.

    Read More
  162. @Mao Cheng Ji
    Venezuela has different problems, very high level of political instability, for example. I tried to explain it twice already; once again: I never said that poverty/inequality is the only possible cause of crime. It's a cause. And this seems quite obvious to me.

    Anyway, I find your approach way too numerical, too mechanical. Possibly your IQ is too high.

    Or maybe my approach has predictive success, i.e. works, unlike yours, which cannot even make a numerical prediction, and is an excuse to let horrendous social problems, such as infant lead poisoning, fester.

    Read More
  163. @KenH
    Pages nine and ten are not included, so I don't know what you think you're seeing. The source deals with two hypotheses regarding metallurgy in sub Saharan Africa, one of which is that it originated far north of sub Saharan Africa and worked its way south. It's up to the reader to decide which one they find more compelling.

    The case for an indigenous source of metallurgy seems to rest on the discovery of some copper trinkets which aren't anything elaborate or special.


    I take it that the word kangs
     
    We wuz kangs: Kangs is ebonics for kings
    English translation: We were kings

    Here is a review of the relevant book which is cited in the “Afrocentric” page that I linked, regarding colonial witnesses to Bantu smelting,
     
    The only page available from your link has no eyewitness accounts to sub Saharan negro metallurgy. It just states that they had some shallow mining capability to use it as a medium of exchange.

    First off, I specifically linked a review of a book, published in 1937, whose entire subject matter is colonial witnesses of African iron smelting. Avoid this issue one more time, and I will assume dishonesty on your part. Here again is the link to the review. Go find the book, then comment on it.

    I can access page 9 just fine. What the author was doing on the page that you linked was provide the start of his literature review; he was merely including the view, expressed by some authors, that iron work had been invented elsewhere and brought to the proto-Bantu by traders.

    I shall quote from page 9:

    The development of the “classic” trans-Saharan trade took place during the first half of the first millennium A.D. (Garrard 1980, 1982), and exchange of Saharan salt and “Phoenician” iron implements for West African gold and slaves does not seem reliably chronicled for any time as early as the last millennium B.C. In the present state of our knowledge of early African metal-[line break]lurgy, the synchronous emergence of iron production technology in eastern as well as western Africa does not seem to be explicable within a hypothesis of a single center of origin.

    The somewhat more heterogeneous set of pholyphyletic hypotheses are based on the premise of local, autochthonous development (Lhote 1952, Diop 1968, Andah 1980). In its earliest stage, without substantive archaeo-[line break]logical evidence, the argument approaches a kind of wishful thinking. Never-[line break]theless, we can state the conditions underlying it. In the first place, iron ore sources are found widely distributed throughout the continent, and, second, there is an extraordinary diversity of African iron-producing traditions. The inference is that such diversity could not have arisen from a single source but that it is a product of a set of local experiments, causing a discontinuous distribution of traditional methods.

    The discussion by Diop (1968, 37) is particularly significant. After a re-[line break]view of the debate on the origins of iron metallurgy in Africa, she concluded, “Today, it thus seems proven that in Africa, traditional iron metallurgy is very old, widespread and autochthonous; however, it is still needed to iden-[line break]tify the cradles of the metallurgy, to date them more securely, and to high-[line break]light the hypothetical routes of iron throughout the continent.” In other words, an early date for the emergence of African iron-working technology is suggested, and these early metallurgies were widespread and autochtho-[line break]nous. Their original cradles of innovation and subsequent routes of expan-[line break]sion are as yet unknown. In short, a hypothetical position has been posed as the basis for future inquiry.

    Read More
    • Replies: @KenH

    Avoid this issue one more time, and I will assume dishonesty on your part.
     
    Don't get smart aleck. I haven't avoided anything and it isn't my fault your link demands $25.00 to view the book beyond page 438 and only lets a viewer see that one page.

    And you seemed to have not read the last sentence of the last paragraph from the portions of the book link you posted which concedes the autochthonous theory is hypothetical:


    In short, a hypothetical position has been posed as the basis for future inquiry.
     
    Hypothetical means highly conjectural which it is based on the archaeological fragments cited by those who advance the autochthonous theory. In perusing the book, the claims are based mostly on guesses and extrapolation. For instance, iron is present, so the Africans must have mined it and smelted it since some iron artifacts and trinkets were discovered (which could have easily been left by traders passing through of invaders from the far north).
  164. @Robard

    Care to explain the very large Khoi San ancestry of the Nguni Bantus given your chronology, or will you duck the question like everyone else who makes these claims?
     
    I think how it usually went down all over the world is that mostly the men were wiped out while mostly the females were spared.

    Your response, though, still does not seem to address the chronology that Taurus Bulba claimed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Robard
    I don't really see the problem. You seem to assume that there weren't Bushmen in the rest of the country, outside the Cape. There are even Bushman paintings in the kopjes around Johannesburg.
  165. @Johan Meyer
    There was another commission after the act was passed. See in particular page 3, though I've not read the whole document yet.

    Thanks for the link – very informative. While I could find nothing that supports your position, this paragraph completely proves mine as it explodes yours:

    27. In determining the areas which are to be set aside for exclusive occupation
    by Natives—and this, after all, was the task set the Commission— it has to be
    borne in mind that finality is aimed at, i.e., that the lands set apart for the Natives
    shall be reasonably sufficient not only for their present requirements but for all
    time, so that future readjustments of land areas may not be necessary; and the
    lands so assigned should be secured against European competition and interference.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    The paragraph that I had in mind:

    21 ... Farmers are chiefly interested in the supply of labour, which has been gradually drifting from the farms to industrial centres and the towns. They view with apprehension the establishment of large Native areas where Natives could easily obtain land and so free themselves from the obligations which attach to residence on private farms. Some are in favour of reserves, pro­ vided they are under Government supervision, with some sort of compulsory obli­ gation to work; others fear that unless the Native requirements are reasonably met the Natives will migrate from the locality or Province, and their labour will be lost; ...
     
    The rest of the paragraph that you quote:

    ...others, again, regard the Act as violating promises made to the Natives by the Imperial Government, and as depriving them of rights which they have hitherto exercised and enjoyed, and they claim the right to buy land anywhere. The light in which the Natives of the Orange Free State regard the Act requires special mention, because in that Province there is a considerable body of Natives who have for years— some of them all their lives—lived as independent tenants under the share-system on private lands, an<l who are now threatened with sudden and summary ejectment. These Natives complain bitterly of the enforcement of the Act before they have had time or opportunity to consider how it is likely to affect them or to make representations respecting it to the Government. They consider it unfair to subject them to ejectment before provision has been made for Native areas to which they might remove, or to find places to which they might go, and no time lias been allowed them to try and re-adjust themselves to the new conditions which the law imposes. But the great mass of the Native population in all parts of the Union are looking to the Act to relieve them in two particulars—the first is to give them more land for their stock, and the second is to secure to them fixity of tenure.
     


    Also, on the next page,

    26. The Commission has been at no small pains to try, whenever the oppor­ tunity offered, to explain the Act, and to allay, as far as possible, the misapprehen­ sions aroused in the Native mind. Unfortunately a considerable number of land­ owners have, since the Act came into force, ejected Natives from their lands. Some have done so under the impression that the Act necessitated it; others because the Act offered a good opportunity to get rid of Native tenants who were not rendering sufficient labour. A large number of Natives have been so removed both from Crown lands taken up by Europeans and from private lands, and many more are under notice to quit, especially in centres where farming is more intensive. Many of the Natives so ejected have been led to believe that it is the duty of the. Commission to set apart lands to which they might remove, and they have been asking “ where is the place to which we are to go?”
     
  166. @Johan Meyer
    A reference for this claim? Could you also comment on magistrate RN Harley?


    Winburg magistrate RN Harley told the commission as it was deliberating: “With increasing stocks and herds, the native has become less inclined to be a servant and more inclined to be the semi-independent nomad.. while the farmer has difficulty in obtaining servants… This system has instilled into the native the belief that he has an equal right with the whites to hire and purchase land.”
     
    The Native Land Act also prevented blacks from increasing their holdings.

    I could not find an online link to the commission's hearings.

    “Reference for this claim?” See: http://www.historicalpapers.wits.ac.za/inventories/inv_pdfo/A1655/A1655-Da3b-01-jpeg.pdf.

    As for Harley, he was only one of many different people who testified before the commission, some of whom were totally opposed to segregation.

    Read More
  167. @Johan Meyer
    In some cases perhaps, though the Nguni Bantu have 3-5% Khoi San related Y-chromosones. Then there are other Bantu ethnic groups, in particular in Namibia, that have far greater Khoi San Y Chromosones. See the map in the wiki article on haplotype A, although the particular varients of haplotype A that predominate among these Bantu might no longer be associated with Khoi San (gene flow in the opposite direction---Khoi San taking Bantu women?)---the ethnic distribution of Namibia suggests that there aren't nearly enough Khoi San (Nama, Damara, !Kung and similar) for that percentage to hold for Khoi San alone.

    For general interest, a paper on haplotype A---certain (Caucasian black) east Africans have Y chromosones that are as basal as the Khoi San, which to my non-specialist self suggests that the Caucasian phenotype developed in Africa before outmigration.

    I’m not really interested to get into the woods of genetic analysis, but the presence of Khoisan Y-chromosomes is not inconsistent with their tribes having been conquered by the Bantu. Male children could have been spared for slavery as well as the females. Maybe this is the origin of the tsotsi character in black folklore – about a midget demon who secretly impregnates women while they are asleep.

    Read More
  168. @Johan Meyer
    Your response, though, still does not seem to address the chronology that Taurus Bulba claimed.

    I don’t really see the problem. You seem to assume that there weren’t Bushmen in the rest of the country, outside the Cape. There are even Bushman paintings in the kopjes around Johannesburg.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    The problem is the timing of the replacement---whether it happened 2500 years ago, 1500-1000 years ago, or as he claims, less than 400 years ago.
  169. @KenH
    Pages nine and ten are not included, so I don't know what you think you're seeing. The source deals with two hypotheses regarding metallurgy in sub Saharan Africa, one of which is that it originated far north of sub Saharan Africa and worked its way south. It's up to the reader to decide which one they find more compelling.

    The case for an indigenous source of metallurgy seems to rest on the discovery of some copper trinkets which aren't anything elaborate or special.


    I take it that the word kangs
     
    We wuz kangs: Kangs is ebonics for kings
    English translation: We were kings

    Here is a review of the relevant book which is cited in the “Afrocentric” page that I linked, regarding colonial witnesses to Bantu smelting,
     
    The only page available from your link has no eyewitness accounts to sub Saharan negro metallurgy. It just states that they had some shallow mining capability to use it as a medium of exchange.

    I shall also quote from that book that was reviewed in the link that I have twice, and will now a third time link, here—I fetched it from a library.

    His first chapter relates to gold—he mentions that it was mined, including under the surface, and ancient remains have been found in the old Transvaal, and in ornaments around Great Zimbabwe, but it was otherwise exported to the coast.

    From page 17, where he begins his discussion of the archaeological record:

    Within the bend of the Niger lies the only large area where iron remains have been found associated with stone-using cultures. Detritus heaps examined by Desplagnes (77,78) on the Central Nigeran Plateau — especially at Sumpi, Gourao, and Koulikoro — are exemplified by the Koulikoro site, which yields, in addition to iron slag, incised pestles, and scrapers, and stone mills and mortars which have long been obsolete here. Sites which the natives of Koilikoro call “old workshops of smiths” show the same Neolithic inventory.

    He mentions similar antiquity smelters in former Khoisan territory on the next pages.

    [MORE]

    On page 20, he starts with the historical record:

    When we come to the Middle Ages we find a curious reversal. Medieval commerce between India and East Africa is attested both by archaeological data — such as the melange of Chinese porcelain, Persian glazes, and Indian trade beads at Zimbabwe (50) — and by numerous passages in authors of the time. Biruni (90)12, writing in his History of India in the early years of the eleventh century, informs us that Somanat, the port of Kathiawar, had become especially important as a harbor for those who fared by sea between Sofala, in the country of the Zenj, and China. But the iron now seems to be flowing eastward instead of westward.

    Idrisi (86)13, in the second half of the twelfth century, says that the chief products of Zenj are iron and “tiger” skins.

    Starting on page 24, he discusses early travelers:

    Thus, though iron ore was plentiful in many parts of Natal, Gardiner (33)13 says that the Zulu exploited it only in the mountains around the headwaters of the Amatikula River. The BaVenda in the highlands of the Transvaal mined and smelted iron not only for themselves but for the BaThonga and other groups in Portuguese East (137)14. Livingstone (160) reported abundant iron ore in the Saloisho Hills, mined by many of the Thinte’s BaLonda. The lower Zambezi has great quantities of specularite and rich black oxide. The latter occurs mainly as tears or rounded lumps, only slightly magnetic; and when present in river beds is conspicuous on the surface (160)15. The BaSenga, famous iron workers, had especially fine sources, some ore showing veins of pure metal (160).

    In the old days Ovambo smiths got their iron from the mines near Ukuanjama in Southern Angola; though nowadays, when access to these mines has been cut off, they rework scrap iron from European trade (110, 154). The Ondulu people in the Bilie district of Angola quarry their ore from a single mountain which is the center of hoe-making for a wide area (217). The Mobambi of the Katanga specialized so strongly in iron smelting that they neglected to exploit rich copper deposits in their neighborhood.

    On page 30, he begins his discussion of smelting techniques:

    Negroes usually make wrought iron rather than cast iron or steel. Wrought iron is produced in a pasty, not in a molten condition, is malleable, and contains so little carbon that it does not harden appreciably when suddenly cooled. Moreover, it is not homogeneous; it contains particles of slag, the non-metallic impurities of the ore, which because of the low temperature of smelting, have remained entangled in the iron.

    Sometimes, however, Negroes produce steel, either by accident or design. Many more native metallurgists will have to be interviewed and many more specimens analyzed before we can say how often they do so; but I have encountered several references to tempering and puddling — that is, lessening the carbon content of iron by reheating — and both Bellamy (26,27) for Yoruba and Stanley (245) for the Mashona and old Zimbabwe culture, have published accounts of Negro steel manufacture and analyses of the product. Bellamy’s unique data will lead off my discussion of smelting methods; and Stanley’s, which include microphotographic sections of native steel and iron, will be more intelligible if presented in a general discussion of Negro steel metallurgy, after we have finished with the grosser mechanical aspects of the smelting process.

    He then has several pages of discussion of local smelters, with diagrams, and chemical analysis of the ores and produced steels. A number of the designs involve melting to a good flow. He cites an account of Hottentot (Khoi San group) smelting on page 51.

    On page 52 he begins his discussion of bellows used in the furnaces. On page 53, there begins discussion of temperature control efforts to get steel rather than cast.

    In page 56 he begins his discussion of copper and tin mines, beginning with the ancient, and discussion continues with tin mines, and processing. On page 78 he begins his discussion of alloys. Manufactured bronze was found around Transvaal (I limit myself to southern African examples, though he goes all over subsaharan Africa), though brass was imported. A copper and lead alloy was used locally for ornaments. From page 82 he discusses casting methods.

    His discussion of smithing begins on page 89, and he discusses the working of spear shafts at some length. Pages 91-101 are a table of different smithing technologies, including hammers, tongs, and the like, of different ethnic groups. Starting on page 102, he discusses bellows, including the ethnic distribution of bag, drum and concertina bellows.

    Wire drawing developed or was imported twice, once along the east coast south to Natal, and as well in west Africa. Both the Great Zimbabwe ruins and other ruins contained drawn wire and wire drawing tools. Some of the west-African wire drawing ethnic groups also made chain, including iron chain.

    From page 114, a discussion follows on ethnic religious practices related to metallurgy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @KenH
    Again, your Cambridge University link is asking for money to view the book. What's the magic trick for viewing it? If the relevant passages were included in your post then I guess it doesn't matter.

    Sometimes, however, Negroes produce steel, either by accident or design. Many more native metallurgists will have to be interviewed and many more specimens analyzed before we can say how often they do so;
     
    In other words the Negroes don't seem to quite know what they are doing and merely stumbled on to it somehow. The author doesn't seem to know either and needs to interview many more "native metallurgists" to find out. Good luck. You're resting your case on this?

    He then has several pages of discussion of local smelters, with diagrams, and chemical analysis of the ores and produced steels. A number of the designs involve melting to a good flow. He cites an account of Hottentot (Khoi San group) smelting on page 51.
     
    Why does it require European authors, using our own technical terms and knowledge to figure all this out and put the pieces of the puzzle together? Where are the Negro and Hottentot manuals for smelting and discussion of metals and alloys and melting point temperatures if they were so advanced as you are trying to prove.

    In case you didn't notice the book was written in 1937, not 1650 A.D. or 1000 B.C., and much of Southern Africa had been colonized by Europeans by then. So much of the Negro metallurgy by that time was probably learned through contact with Europeans.

    Are you trying to prove that the Boers stumbled upon an advanced civilization in S. Africa? At best, the metallurgical practices were extremely rudimentary and nothing similar to what one might find in Europe, Scandinavia or even the Orient during this time.

    Are you going to next claim that they had automobiles and also had a space program and orbited the earth long before NASA did?

  170. @Robard
    I don't really see the problem. You seem to assume that there weren't Bushmen in the rest of the country, outside the Cape. There are even Bushman paintings in the kopjes around Johannesburg.

    The problem is the timing of the replacement—whether it happened 2500 years ago, 1500-1000 years ago, or as he claims, less than 400 years ago.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Robard
    Probably both. Small migrations throughout pre-history, but the great waves only arriving around the 13th century. By the time the Europeans landed there were still small tribes present in the Drakensberg.
  171. @Robard
    Thanks for the link - very informative. While I could find nothing that supports your position, this paragraph completely proves mine as it explodes yours:

    27. In determining the areas which are to be set aside for exclusive occupation
    by Natives—and this, after all, was the task set the Commission— it has to be
    borne in mind that finality is aimed at, i.e., that the lands set apart for the Natives
    shall be reasonably sufficient not only for their present requirements but for all
    time, so that future readjustments of land areas may not be necessary; and the
    lands so assigned should be secured against European competition and interference.

    The paragraph that I had in mind:

    21 … Farmers are chiefly interested in the supply of labour, which has been gradually drifting from the farms to industrial centres and the towns. They view with apprehension the establishment of large Native areas where Natives could easily obtain land and so free themselves from the obligations which attach to residence on private farms. Some are in favour of reserves, pro­ vided they are under Government supervision, with some sort of compulsory obli­ gation to work; others fear that unless the Native requirements are reasonably met the Natives will migrate from the locality or Province, and their labour will be lost; …

    The rest of the paragraph that you quote:

    …others, again, regard the Act as violating promises made to the Natives by the Imperial Government, and as depriving them of rights which they have hitherto exercised and enjoyed, and they claim the right to buy land anywhere. The light in which the Natives of the Orange Free State regard the Act requires special mention, because in that Province there is a considerable body of Natives who have for years— some of them all their lives—lived as independent tenants under the share-system on private lands, an<l who are now threatened with sudden and summary ejectment. These Natives complain bitterly of the enforcement of the Act before they have had time or opportunity to consider how it is likely to affect them or to make representations respecting it to the Government. They consider it unfair to subject them to ejectment before provision has been made for Native areas to which they might remove, or to find places to which they might go, and no time lias been allowed them to try and re-adjust themselves to the new conditions which the law imposes. But the great mass of the Native population in all parts of the Union are looking to the Act to relieve them in two particulars—the first is to give them more land for their stock, and the second is to secure to them fixity of tenure.

    [MORE]

    Also, on the next page,

    26. The Commission has been at no small pains to try, whenever the oppor­ tunity offered, to explain the Act, and to allay, as far as possible, the misapprehen­ sions aroused in the Native mind. Unfortunately a considerable number of land­ owners have, since the Act came into force, ejected Natives from their lands. Some have done so under the impression that the Act necessitated it; others because the Act offered a good opportunity to get rid of Native tenants who were not rendering sufficient labour. A large number of Natives have been so removed both from Crown lands taken up by Europeans and from private lands, and many more are under notice to quit, especially in centres where farming is more intensive. Many of the Natives so ejected have been led to believe that it is the duty of the. Commission to set apart lands to which they might remove, and they have been asking “ where is the place to which we are to go?”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Robard
    Those are discussions of misapprehensions and some unintended consequences of the act. It doesn't prove at all that the act's intention was or resulted in "stealing" of land, quite the contrary. Even if farmers used it as a ruse to get rid of unwanted tenants - as tenants they didn't have any ownership claims on the land. It merely shows that even in those days black tenants and sharecroppers were very much protected by law.
  172. @Johan Meyer
    The paragraph that I had in mind:

    21 ... Farmers are chiefly interested in the supply of labour, which has been gradually drifting from the farms to industrial centres and the towns. They view with apprehension the establishment of large Native areas where Natives could easily obtain land and so free themselves from the obligations which attach to residence on private farms. Some are in favour of reserves, pro­ vided they are under Government supervision, with some sort of compulsory obli­ gation to work; others fear that unless the Native requirements are reasonably met the Natives will migrate from the locality or Province, and their labour will be lost; ...
     
    The rest of the paragraph that you quote:

    ...others, again, regard the Act as violating promises made to the Natives by the Imperial Government, and as depriving them of rights which they have hitherto exercised and enjoyed, and they claim the right to buy land anywhere. The light in which the Natives of the Orange Free State regard the Act requires special mention, because in that Province there is a considerable body of Natives who have for years— some of them all their lives—lived as independent tenants under the share-system on private lands, an<l who are now threatened with sudden and summary ejectment. These Natives complain bitterly of the enforcement of the Act before they have had time or opportunity to consider how it is likely to affect them or to make representations respecting it to the Government. They consider it unfair to subject them to ejectment before provision has been made for Native areas to which they might remove, or to find places to which they might go, and no time lias been allowed them to try and re-adjust themselves to the new conditions which the law imposes. But the great mass of the Native population in all parts of the Union are looking to the Act to relieve them in two particulars—the first is to give them more land for their stock, and the second is to secure to them fixity of tenure.
     


    Also, on the next page,

    26. The Commission has been at no small pains to try, whenever the oppor­ tunity offered, to explain the Act, and to allay, as far as possible, the misapprehen­ sions aroused in the Native mind. Unfortunately a considerable number of land­ owners have, since the Act came into force, ejected Natives from their lands. Some have done so under the impression that the Act necessitated it; others because the Act offered a good opportunity to get rid of Native tenants who were not rendering sufficient labour. A large number of Natives have been so removed both from Crown lands taken up by Europeans and from private lands, and many more are under notice to quit, especially in centres where farming is more intensive. Many of the Natives so ejected have been led to believe that it is the duty of the. Commission to set apart lands to which they might remove, and they have been asking “ where is the place to which we are to go?”
     

    Those are discussions of misapprehensions and some unintended consequences of the act. It doesn’t prove at all that the act’s intention was or resulted in “stealing” of land, quite the contrary. Even if farmers used it as a ruse to get rid of unwanted tenants – as tenants they didn’t have any ownership claims on the land. It merely shows that even in those days black tenants and sharecroppers were very much protected by law.

    Read More
  173. @Johan Meyer
    First off, I specifically linked a review of a book, published in 1937, whose entire subject matter is colonial witnesses of African iron smelting. Avoid this issue one more time, and I will assume dishonesty on your part. Here again is the link to the review. Go find the book, then comment on it.

    I can access page 9 just fine. What the author was doing on the page that you linked was provide the start of his literature review; he was merely including the view, expressed by some authors, that iron work had been invented elsewhere and brought to the proto-Bantu by traders.

    I shall quote from page 9:


    The development of the "classic" trans-Saharan trade took place during the first half of the first millennium A.D. (Garrard 1980, 1982), and exchange of Saharan salt and "Phoenician" iron implements for West African gold and slaves does not seem reliably chronicled for any time as early as the last millennium B.C. In the present state of our knowledge of early African metal-[line break]lurgy, the synchronous emergence of iron production technology in eastern as well as western Africa does not seem to be explicable within a hypothesis of a single center of origin.

    The somewhat more heterogeneous set of pholyphyletic hypotheses are based on the premise of local, autochthonous development (Lhote 1952, Diop 1968, Andah 1980). In its earliest stage, without substantive archaeo-[line break]logical evidence, the argument approaches a kind of wishful thinking. Never-[line break]theless, we can state the conditions underlying it. In the first place, iron ore sources are found widely distributed throughout the continent, and, second, there is an extraordinary diversity of African iron-producing traditions. The inference is that such diversity could not have arisen from a single source but that it is a product of a set of local experiments, causing a discontinuous distribution of traditional methods.

    The discussion by Diop (1968, 37) is particularly significant. After a re-[line break]view of the debate on the origins of iron metallurgy in Africa, she concluded, "Today, it thus seems proven that in Africa, traditional iron metallurgy is very old, widespread and autochthonous; however, it is still needed to iden-[line break]tify the cradles of the metallurgy, to date them more securely, and to high-[line break]light the hypothetical routes of iron throughout the continent." In other words, an early date for the emergence of African iron-working technology is suggested, and these early metallurgies were widespread and autochtho-[line break]nous. Their original cradles of innovation and subsequent routes of expan-[line break]sion are as yet unknown. In short, a hypothetical position has been posed as the basis for future inquiry.

     

    Avoid this issue one more time, and I will assume dishonesty on your part.

    Don’t get smart aleck. I haven’t avoided anything and it isn’t my fault your link demands $25.00 to view the book beyond page 438 and only lets a viewer see that one page.

    And you seemed to have not read the last sentence of the last paragraph from the portions of the book link you posted which concedes the autochthonous theory is hypothetical:

    In short, a hypothetical position has been posed as the basis for future inquiry.

    Hypothetical means highly conjectural which it is based on the archaeological fragments cited by those who advance the autochthonous theory. In perusing the book, the claims are based mostly on guesses and extrapolation. For instance, iron is present, so the Africans must have mined it and smelted it since some iron artifacts and trinkets were discovered (which could have easily been left by traders passing through of invaders from the far north).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    The autochthonous theory in question is that the technology developed in Africa, or African *discovery* of smelting. The alternative theory that the document discusses is that the smelting technology was borrowed from elsewhere (via Phoenicians, for example), and developed further *by Africans*. Your theory has nothing to do with either, and involves all the iron products, including iron spear shafts, somehow magically coming from elsewhere, including in *southern Africa*, despite the facts of local discovery of even stone-age smelters, and local manufacture, including during the colonial period.

    That is to say that your theory is so bizarrely out of touch with the evidence as to beg the question of literacy---the document that you cite *manifestly* does not discuss your bizarre theory.

  174. @Johan Meyer
    The problem is the timing of the replacement---whether it happened 2500 years ago, 1500-1000 years ago, or as he claims, less than 400 years ago.

    Probably both. Small migrations throughout pre-history, but the great waves only arriving around the 13th century. By the time the Europeans landed there were still small tribes present in the Drakensberg.

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  175. @Johan Meyer
    I shall also quote from that book that was reviewed in the link that I have twice, and will now a third time link, here---I fetched it from a library.

    His first chapter relates to gold---he mentions that it was mined, including under the surface, and ancient remains have been found in the old Transvaal, and in ornaments around Great Zimbabwe, but it was otherwise exported to the coast.

    From page 17, where he begins his discussion of the archaeological record:

    Within the bend of the Niger lies the only large area where iron remains have been found associated with stone-using cultures. Detritus heaps examined by Desplagnes (77,78) on the Central Nigeran Plateau --- especially at Sumpi, Gourao, and Koulikoro --- are exemplified by the Koulikoro site, which yields, in addition to iron slag, incised pestles, and scrapers, and stone mills and mortars which have long been obsolete here. Sites which the natives of Koilikoro call "old workshops of smiths" show the same Neolithic inventory.
     

    He mentions similar antiquity smelters in former Khoisan territory on the next pages.


    On page 20, he starts with the historical record:


    When we come to the Middle Ages we find a curious reversal. Medieval commerce between India and East Africa is attested both by archaeological data --- such as the melange of Chinese porcelain, Persian glazes, and Indian trade beads at Zimbabwe (50) --- and by numerous passages in authors of the time. Biruni (90)12, writing in his History of India in the early years of the eleventh century, informs us that Somanat, the port of Kathiawar, had become especially important as a harbor for those who fared by sea between Sofala, in the country of the Zenj, and China. But the iron now seems to be flowing eastward instead of westward.

    Idrisi (86)13, in the second half of the twelfth century, says that the chief products of Zenj are iron and "tiger" skins.
     

    Starting on page 24, he discusses early travelers:

    Thus, though iron ore was plentiful in many parts of Natal, Gardiner (33)13 says that the Zulu exploited it only in the mountains around the headwaters of the Amatikula River. The BaVenda in the highlands of the Transvaal mined and smelted iron not only for themselves but for the BaThonga and other groups in Portuguese East (137)14. Livingstone (160) reported abundant iron ore in the Saloisho Hills, mined by many of the Thinte's BaLonda. The lower Zambezi has great quantities of specularite and rich black oxide. The latter occurs mainly as tears or rounded lumps, only slightly magnetic; and when present in river beds is conspicuous on the surface (160)15. The BaSenga, famous iron workers, had especially fine sources, some ore showing veins of pure metal (160).
     

    In the old days Ovambo smiths got their iron from the mines near Ukuanjama in Southern Angola; though nowadays, when access to these mines has been cut off, they rework scrap iron from European trade (110, 154). The Ondulu people in the Bilie district of Angola quarry their ore from a single mountain which is the center of hoe-making for a wide area (217). The Mobambi of the Katanga specialized so strongly in iron smelting that they neglected to exploit rich copper deposits in their neighborhood.
     

    On page 30, he begins his discussion of smelting techniques:

    Negroes usually make wrought iron rather than cast iron or steel. Wrought iron is produced in a pasty, not in a molten condition, is malleable, and contains so little carbon that it does not harden appreciably when suddenly cooled. Moreover, it is not homogeneous; it contains particles of slag, the non-metallic impurities of the ore, which because of the low temperature of smelting, have remained entangled in the iron.

    Sometimes, however, Negroes produce steel, either by accident or design. Many more native metallurgists will have to be interviewed and many more specimens analyzed before we can say how often they do so; but I have encountered several references to tempering and puddling --- that is, lessening the carbon content of iron by reheating --- and both Bellamy (26,27) for Yoruba and Stanley (245) for the Mashona and old Zimbabwe culture, have published accounts of Negro steel manufacture and analyses of the product. Bellamy's unique data will lead off my discussion of smelting methods; and Stanley's, which include microphotographic sections of native steel and iron, will be more intelligible if presented in a general discussion of Negro steel metallurgy, after we have finished with the grosser mechanical aspects of the smelting process.
     

    He then has several pages of discussion of local smelters, with diagrams, and chemical analysis of the ores and produced steels. A number of the designs involve melting to a good flow. He cites an account of Hottentot (Khoi San group) smelting on page 51.

    On page 52 he begins his discussion of bellows used in the furnaces. On page 53, there begins discussion of temperature control efforts to get steel rather than cast.

    In page 56 he begins his discussion of copper and tin mines, beginning with the ancient, and discussion continues with tin mines, and processing. On page 78 he begins his discussion of alloys. Manufactured bronze was found around Transvaal (I limit myself to southern African examples, though he goes all over subsaharan Africa), though brass was imported. A copper and lead alloy was used locally for ornaments. From page 82 he discusses casting methods.

    His discussion of smithing begins on page 89, and he discusses the working of spear shafts at some length. Pages 91-101 are a table of different smithing technologies, including hammers, tongs, and the like, of different ethnic groups. Starting on page 102, he discusses bellows, including the ethnic distribution of bag, drum and concertina bellows.

    Wire drawing developed or was imported twice, once along the east coast south to Natal, and as well in west Africa. Both the Great Zimbabwe ruins and other ruins contained drawn wire and wire drawing tools. Some of the west-African wire drawing ethnic groups also made chain, including iron chain.

    From page 114, a discussion follows on ethnic religious practices related to metallurgy.

    Again, your Cambridge University link is asking for money to view the book. What’s the magic trick for viewing it? If the relevant passages were included in your post then I guess it doesn’t matter.

    Sometimes, however, Negroes produce steel, either by accident or design. Many more native metallurgists will have to be interviewed and many more specimens analyzed before we can say how often they do so;

    In other words the Negroes don’t seem to quite know what they are doing and merely stumbled on to it somehow. The author doesn’t seem to know either and needs to interview many more “native metallurgists” to find out. Good luck. You’re resting your case on this?

    He then has several pages of discussion of local smelters, with diagrams, and chemical analysis of the ores and produced steels. A number of the designs involve melting to a good flow. He cites an account of Hottentot (Khoi San group) smelting on page 51.

    Why does it require European authors, using our own technical terms and knowledge to figure all this out and put the pieces of the puzzle together? Where are the Negro and Hottentot manuals for smelting and discussion of metals and alloys and melting point temperatures if they were so advanced as you are trying to prove.

    In case you didn’t notice the book was written in 1937, not 1650 A.D. or 1000 B.C., and much of Southern Africa had been colonized by Europeans by then. So much of the Negro metallurgy by that time was probably learned through contact with Europeans.

    Are you trying to prove that the Boers stumbled upon an advanced civilization in S. Africa? At best, the metallurgical practices were extremely rudimentary and nothing similar to what one might find in Europe, Scandinavia or even the Orient during this time.

    Are you going to next claim that they had automobiles and also had a space program and orbited the earth long before NASA did?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    Your comments are bizarre, once again. Literacy usually comes after metallurgy; to my knowledge, the only place where pre-European literacy existed and survived European contact, and was not of Arabic influence, in subsaharan Africa, was the area around the bight of Biafra, in particular the Nsibidi writing system, used by the Igbo and surrounding ethnic groups, especially toward the coast.

    Each ethnic group had their own religious practices surrounding metallurgy, suggesting *very strongly* pre-Christian missionary contact metallurgy. Moreover, the book in question cites various documents, going as far back as the eleventh century (Biruni), the 16th century (Andrew Bettel, Demanet), the 19th century (Baumann, Bowditch amongst others; the latter published in 1819, Livingstone and Moffat---the missionaries; ), the 17th century (Dapper) , the 18th century (Moore, Park).

    As the rest of your comment strikes me as a strawman, I shall leave it be.

    TO THE MODERATOR. Please delete the other copy, as it initially appeared to have failed to submit, hence my second copy.

    , @Johan Meyer
    Finally, seeing as the majority of metallurgists well into the 20th century, around the world, lacked a modern scientific understanding, your "stumble upon" is unremarkable. Every group stumbled upon iron working, then did further experimentation. In these African groups, in many cases, they controlled the carbon content, and the temperature---suggesting a fair bit of experimentation. Which would seem all the more remarkable given their illiteracy, expect that the same pattern in fact also happened everywhere else, with the possible exception of the ancient Turkic tribes, who were literate, possibly before mastering iron work.
    , @Johan Meyer

    Again, your Cambridge University link is asking for money to view the book. What’s the magic trick for viewing it?
     
    It doesn't. It asks for money to view the rest of the review of the book. The book is only available in second hand form for physical purchase online, which is why *I suggested that you get the book from a library*. Had you paid the money, you would have gotten their review of the book, not the book itself.
  176. @KenH

    Avoid this issue one more time, and I will assume dishonesty on your part.
     
    Don't get smart aleck. I haven't avoided anything and it isn't my fault your link demands $25.00 to view the book beyond page 438 and only lets a viewer see that one page.

    And you seemed to have not read the last sentence of the last paragraph from the portions of the book link you posted which concedes the autochthonous theory is hypothetical:


    In short, a hypothetical position has been posed as the basis for future inquiry.
     
    Hypothetical means highly conjectural which it is based on the archaeological fragments cited by those who advance the autochthonous theory. In perusing the book, the claims are based mostly on guesses and extrapolation. For instance, iron is present, so the Africans must have mined it and smelted it since some iron artifacts and trinkets were discovered (which could have easily been left by traders passing through of invaders from the far north).

    The autochthonous theory in question is that the technology developed in Africa, or African *discovery* of smelting. The alternative theory that the document discusses is that the smelting technology was borrowed from elsewhere (via Phoenicians, for example), and developed further *by Africans*. Your theory has nothing to do with either, and involves all the iron products, including iron spear shafts, somehow magically coming from elsewhere, including in *southern Africa*, despite the facts of local discovery of even stone-age smelters, and local manufacture, including during the colonial period.

    That is to say that your theory is so bizarrely out of touch with the evidence as to beg the question of literacy—the document that you cite *manifestly* does not discuss your bizarre theory.

    Read More
    • Replies: @KenH

    The autochthonous theory in question is that the technology developed in Africa, or African *discovery* of smelting.
     
    Duh. I already noted/acknowledged this in one of my previous posts.

    Your theory has nothing to do with either, and involves all the iron products, including iron spear shafts,
     
    I didn't advance a theory. Your attributing things to my post that don't exist. The book I linked to mentions iron ore deposits in sub Saharan Africa and supposes that since it existed it must have been mined and smelted by the natives per the polyphyletic hypothesis.

    That is to say that your theory is so bizarrely out of touch with the evidence as to beg the question of literacy—the document that you cite *manifestly* does not discuss your bizarre theory.
     
    If there's a literacy problem its on your end. Iron is mentioned and on page 11, figure 1.1. clearly states "Chronology of the Development of Iron Technology".

    In order to separate the iron from the ore it requires some type of smelting process which those whot subscribe to the polyphyletic hypothesis believe sub Saharan Africans possessed.

  177. @KenH
    Again, your Cambridge University link is asking for money to view the book. What's the magic trick for viewing it? If the relevant passages were included in your post then I guess it doesn't matter.

    Sometimes, however, Negroes produce steel, either by accident or design. Many more native metallurgists will have to be interviewed and many more specimens analyzed before we can say how often they do so;
     
    In other words the Negroes don't seem to quite know what they are doing and merely stumbled on to it somehow. The author doesn't seem to know either and needs to interview many more "native metallurgists" to find out. Good luck. You're resting your case on this?

    He then has several pages of discussion of local smelters, with diagrams, and chemical analysis of the ores and produced steels. A number of the designs involve melting to a good flow. He cites an account of Hottentot (Khoi San group) smelting on page 51.
     
    Why does it require European authors, using our own technical terms and knowledge to figure all this out and put the pieces of the puzzle together? Where are the Negro and Hottentot manuals for smelting and discussion of metals and alloys and melting point temperatures if they were so advanced as you are trying to prove.

    In case you didn't notice the book was written in 1937, not 1650 A.D. or 1000 B.C., and much of Southern Africa had been colonized by Europeans by then. So much of the Negro metallurgy by that time was probably learned through contact with Europeans.

    Are you trying to prove that the Boers stumbled upon an advanced civilization in S. Africa? At best, the metallurgical practices were extremely rudimentary and nothing similar to what one might find in Europe, Scandinavia or even the Orient during this time.

    Are you going to next claim that they had automobiles and also had a space program and orbited the earth long before NASA did?

    Your comments are bizarre, once again. Literacy usually comes after metallurgy; to my knowledge, the only place where pre-European literacy existed and survived European contact, and was not of Arabic influence, in subsaharan Africa, was the area around the bight of Biafra, in particular the Nsibidi writing system, used by the Igbo and surrounding ethnic groups, especially toward the coast.

    Each ethnic group had their own religious practices surrounding metallurgy, suggesting *very strongly* pre-Christian missionary contact metallurgy. Moreover, the book in question cites various documents, going as far back as the eleventh century (Biruni), the 16th century (Andrew Bettel, Demanet), the 19th century (Baumann, Bowditch amongst others; the latter published in 1819, Livingstone and Moffat—the missionaries; ), the 17th century (Dapper) , the 18th century (Moore, Park).

    As the rest of your comment strikes me as a strawman, I shall leave it be.

    TO THE MODERATOR. Please delete the other copy, as it initially appeared to have failed to submit, hence my second copy.

    Read More
  178. @KenH
    Again, your Cambridge University link is asking for money to view the book. What's the magic trick for viewing it? If the relevant passages were included in your post then I guess it doesn't matter.

    Sometimes, however, Negroes produce steel, either by accident or design. Many more native metallurgists will have to be interviewed and many more specimens analyzed before we can say how often they do so;
     
    In other words the Negroes don't seem to quite know what they are doing and merely stumbled on to it somehow. The author doesn't seem to know either and needs to interview many more "native metallurgists" to find out. Good luck. You're resting your case on this?

    He then has several pages of discussion of local smelters, with diagrams, and chemical analysis of the ores and produced steels. A number of the designs involve melting to a good flow. He cites an account of Hottentot (Khoi San group) smelting on page 51.
     
    Why does it require European authors, using our own technical terms and knowledge to figure all this out and put the pieces of the puzzle together? Where are the Negro and Hottentot manuals for smelting and discussion of metals and alloys and melting point temperatures if they were so advanced as you are trying to prove.

    In case you didn't notice the book was written in 1937, not 1650 A.D. or 1000 B.C., and much of Southern Africa had been colonized by Europeans by then. So much of the Negro metallurgy by that time was probably learned through contact with Europeans.

    Are you trying to prove that the Boers stumbled upon an advanced civilization in S. Africa? At best, the metallurgical practices were extremely rudimentary and nothing similar to what one might find in Europe, Scandinavia or even the Orient during this time.

    Are you going to next claim that they had automobiles and also had a space program and orbited the earth long before NASA did?

    Finally, seeing as the majority of metallurgists well into the 20th century, around the world, lacked a modern scientific understanding, your “stumble upon” is unremarkable. Every group stumbled upon iron working, then did further experimentation. In these African groups, in many cases, they controlled the carbon content, and the temperature—suggesting a fair bit of experimentation. Which would seem all the more remarkable given their illiteracy, expect that the same pattern in fact also happened everywhere else, with the possible exception of the ancient Turkic tribes, who were literate, possibly before mastering iron work.

    Read More
  179. @KenH
    Again, your Cambridge University link is asking for money to view the book. What's the magic trick for viewing it? If the relevant passages were included in your post then I guess it doesn't matter.

    Sometimes, however, Negroes produce steel, either by accident or design. Many more native metallurgists will have to be interviewed and many more specimens analyzed before we can say how often they do so;
     
    In other words the Negroes don't seem to quite know what they are doing and merely stumbled on to it somehow. The author doesn't seem to know either and needs to interview many more "native metallurgists" to find out. Good luck. You're resting your case on this?

    He then has several pages of discussion of local smelters, with diagrams, and chemical analysis of the ores and produced steels. A number of the designs involve melting to a good flow. He cites an account of Hottentot (Khoi San group) smelting on page 51.
     
    Why does it require European authors, using our own technical terms and knowledge to figure all this out and put the pieces of the puzzle together? Where are the Negro and Hottentot manuals for smelting and discussion of metals and alloys and melting point temperatures if they were so advanced as you are trying to prove.

    In case you didn't notice the book was written in 1937, not 1650 A.D. or 1000 B.C., and much of Southern Africa had been colonized by Europeans by then. So much of the Negro metallurgy by that time was probably learned through contact with Europeans.

    Are you trying to prove that the Boers stumbled upon an advanced civilization in S. Africa? At best, the metallurgical practices were extremely rudimentary and nothing similar to what one might find in Europe, Scandinavia or even the Orient during this time.

    Are you going to next claim that they had automobiles and also had a space program and orbited the earth long before NASA did?

    Again, your Cambridge University link is asking for money to view the book. What’s the magic trick for viewing it?

    It doesn’t. It asks for money to view the rest of the review of the book. The book is only available in second hand form for physical purchase online, which is why *I suggested that you get the book from a library*. Had you paid the money, you would have gotten their review of the book, not the book itself.

    Read More
  180. @AceZwane
    Boers built no manufacturing companies and depended on selling black peoples resources and stealing their land to force them to work in the wretched mines for slave labour. They never built any technologically advanced companies that could compete on the world market, sort of like ans African Australia. You white bastards alse brought Indians and Asians in our country ruining it forever and I hope Muslims overrun Europe so you get a taste of your own medicine.

    “…Boers built no manufacturing companies…”

    They built nuclear power plants(they did a lot of work on gas reactors), nuclear weapons, tritium gun sights, armored personal carriers, etc.. They built a lot of quite sophisticated stuff for the small population they had.

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  181. @AceZwane

    No, Einstein. If you read my post I said there were pre-existing tribes, but all they did was fight, enslave and kill each other. But the Boers and other Europeans ended tribal warfare and through their productive farming methods and the introduction of medical care those tribes saw a massive increase in their population.
     
    More lies there was never slavery in Southern Africa and Europeans fought just as much as Africans so spare me your peaceful whites drivel. So they helped us by stealing all our best land?Boers didn't create any of that they adopted it from someone else through trade. Why would I wear a bone in my nose, or eat insects again?

    White S. Africans created S. Africa’s economy and all of its commercial activities. In so doing they’d maximized the nation’s natural resources which led to the highest standards of living in all of Africa and attracted blacks from other parts of the African continent.
     
    They didn't create shit, they simply exploited the country's natural resources and stole our land forcing us to work in mines. Genocide is appropriate response in this instance and I support farm murders.

    Whites been predicting the fall of South Africa since forever and we're still waiting for it. Let Europeans stand back and see where they dump their subsidized goods to. Were doing fine for millenia without white cancer and will continue to do so.

    “…They didn’t create shit, they simply exploited the country’s natural resources and stole our land forcing us to work in mines…”

    This idea is difficult to support as there was not much of anything in Southern Africa before they got there. The same case can be made of Whites in Zimbabwe creating wealth out of raw land that wasn’t used at all before Whites got there. Now that most are gone it’s rapidly going back to what it was before they got there.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    While your statement about advanced technology is correct, your statement about agriculture is an exaggeration. The Bantu were (and to a large extent are) agriculturalists. The bigger problem in Zim is the elite-heavy redistribution of land (the elites, rather than regular farmers got much of the formerly white-owned land), and those who were serious about farming did not get financial and other capital support, while the white farmers had already accumulated a fair bit of capital. The Zim government had stopped supplying black farmers with capital support under the ESAP, in 1992.

    We (Afrikaners/Boere) also were early adopters of computers (although the apartheid government strongly resisted the introduction of television---we had our first TV broadcast in 1979; by contrast, the first TV broadcast in Africa was in the 50s, by Yorubas).
  182. @Sam J.
    "...They didn’t create shit, they simply exploited the country’s natural resources and stole our land forcing us to work in mines..."

    This idea is difficult to support as there was not much of anything in Southern Africa before they got there. The same case can be made of Whites in Zimbabwe creating wealth out of raw land that wasn't used at all before Whites got there. Now that most are gone it's rapidly going back to what it was before they got there.

    While your statement about advanced technology is correct, your statement about agriculture is an exaggeration. The Bantu were (and to a large extent are) agriculturalists. The bigger problem in Zim is the elite-heavy redistribution of land (the elites, rather than regular farmers got much of the formerly white-owned land), and those who were serious about farming did not get financial and other capital support, while the white farmers had already accumulated a fair bit of capital. The Zim government had stopped supplying black farmers with capital support under the ESAP, in 1992.

    We (Afrikaners/Boere) also were early adopters of computers (although the apartheid government strongly resisted the introduction of television—we had our first TV broadcast in 1979; by contrast, the first TV broadcast in Africa was in the 50s, by Yorubas).

    Read More
  183. @AceZwane
    Whites trolling as usual fortunately farm murders are doing gods work by cleansing them from African soil.

    … fortunately farm murders are doing gods work by cleansing [whites] from African soil.

    Lemme guess – Black Studies major, media studies minor, with classes in expressive dance?

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  184. @Johan Meyer
    The Khoi San groups, such as the Hottentots, were mainly in what became Cape province. Evidence that the Bantu groups entered what became Natal, Eastern Cape, Transvaal, Swaziland, and Orange Freestate after this period? Care to explain the very large Khoi San ancestry of the Nguni Bantus given your chronology, or will you duck the question like everyone else who makes these claims?

    The Khoi San groups, such as the Hottentots, were mainly in what became Cape province. Evidence that the Bantu groups entered what became Natal, Eastern Cape, Transvaal, Swaziland, and Orange Freestate after this period?

    Khoi San populations are found in pockets much farther North, and were probably dominant (alongside some others, e.g. pygmies) before being swamped by the Bantu migrations.

    Within South Africa, you seem to agree that there was no substantial Bantu population in Cape Province when the Boer settlers arrived. Bantus (Xhosa and Zulu) were apparently present East of the Fish River, but in much lower numbers.

    Linguistically, the Xhosa and Zulu must have picked up their clicks quite a while ago (at least 1,000 years ago, probably rather earlier), but the mixing with Khoi San could have occurred farther North, e.g. in present-day Tanzania, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, etc. Population pressure from later Bantu migrants would have pushed the Xhosa and Zulu South.

    Boers created conditions that encouraged later in-migration of Xhosa and Zulu West of the Fish River.

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    • Replies: @Johan Meyer
    What you suggest is possible regarding the geography of the intermarriage. As to the numbers, most populations have grown greatly in the last 150 years, around the world. The relevant question is how their (Nguni Bantu) population growth compares, in the same period, to the population growth of other groups. A likely good control population would be the Tswana in what became Botswana, i.e. excluding South African Tswana.
  185. @Johan Meyer
    The autochthonous theory in question is that the technology developed in Africa, or African *discovery* of smelting. The alternative theory that the document discusses is that the smelting technology was borrowed from elsewhere (via Phoenicians, for example), and developed further *by Africans*. Your theory has nothing to do with either, and involves all the iron products, including iron spear shafts, somehow magically coming from elsewhere, including in *southern Africa*, despite the facts of local discovery of even stone-age smelters, and local manufacture, including during the colonial period.

    That is to say that your theory is so bizarrely out of touch with the evidence as to beg the question of literacy---the document that you cite *manifestly* does not discuss your bizarre theory.

    The autochthonous theory in question is that the technology developed in Africa, or African *discovery* of smelting.

    Duh. I already noted/acknowledged this in one of my previous posts.

    Your theory has nothing to do with either, and involves all the iron products, including iron spear shafts,

    I didn’t advance a theory. Your attributing things to my post that don’t exist. The book I linked to mentions iron ore deposits in sub Saharan Africa and supposes that since it existed it must have been mined and smelted by the natives per the polyphyletic hypothesis.

    That is to say that your theory is so bizarrely out of touch with the evidence as to beg the question of literacy—the document that you cite *manifestly* does not discuss your bizarre theory.

    If there’s a literacy problem its on your end. Iron is mentioned and on page 11, figure 1.1. clearly states “Chronology of the Development of Iron Technology”.

    In order to separate the iron from the ore it requires some type of smelting process which those whot subscribe to the polyphyletic hypothesis believe sub Saharan Africans possessed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johan Meyer

    If there’s a literacy problem its on your end. Iron is mentioned and on page 11, figure 1.1. clearly states “Chronology of the Development of Iron Technology”.

    In order to separate the iron from the ore it requires some type of smelting process which those whot subscribe to the polyphyletic hypothesis believe sub Saharan Africans possessed.
     
    No, the polyphyletic hypothesis involves multiple independent African discoveries of the smelting process, which they then possess. The alternative hypothesis involves Africans learning the smelting process from others (single discovery by learning from others), which they (Africans) then possess. Your hypothesis involves others doing the smelting for them, i.e. that they never possess the technology.