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Shu_Qi_Cannes_2015 Facts are important. But they can be inconvenient. Despite the stream of “think” pieces about “hookup culture” over the past decade there is no evidence that young people today are more promiscuous than in the past. In fact, on the contrary. Young people today are by most measures less promiscuous than past post-WW2 generations, in particular, Baby Boomers. Those articles ultimately are not about the behavior of young people, but the fears, dreams, and nightmares, of a declining Baby Boomer cohort which refuses to go into the sunset quietly. I’m not a Boomer, so I won’t psychoanalyze their motives, but like literature the facts proffered in these essays are a means toward probing deeper issues and questions about the human condition, their generation’s condition and preoccupations, as opposed to being literally true (some of the more recent articles will even admit that the statistical evidence falsifies their premise, but then proceed to suggest there are anecdotal data that lend credence to their premise!).

This applies to other things. Today Quartz put up a piece, If Asian Americans saw white Americans the way white Americans see black Americans, which is not really about Asian Americans at all, but simply uses them as a prop, often in a mendacious manner. First, it gives a nod to the Asian American “Model Minority Myth,” stating that there is “perception that they are high achievers relative to other American ethnic groups.” Get it? There’s a perception. There’s a myth in some scholarly and political quarters that the model minority idea is a myth, founded mostly on assertion (e.g., just stating that it’s a false myth) and slicing and dicing the statistics to emphasize ways in which Asian Americans are disadvantaged in relation to non-Hispanic whites. For example, there is often a focus on the diversity among Asian Americans, ranging from affluent Indian Americans, to groups with more conventional socioeconomic profiles like Filipinos, and finally, those which are somewhat disadvantaged such the Hmong. This is to show that Asian Americans are not a model minority…some of them are struggling. But the logic is not applied to whites! Those who purport to debunk the myth of the model minority would not accede to debunking the idea of white privilege by pointing to the state of Appalachia, and rural white America more generally. Group averages for we, but not thee?

51fMlNGN4lL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_ And yet the Quartz piece engages in some interesting jujitsu by actually reporting the statistics of Asian American advantage vis-a-vis white Americans in the service of a broader agenda of putting whites in their place in relation to their critiques of black Americans. In particular it quotes Anil Dash as saying “If Asian Americans talked about white Americans the way whites talk about black folks, they’d bring back the Exclusion Act.”

This to me is really bizarre, and why I term the piece mendacious: Asian Americans do talk about white Americans the way whites talk about black folks. This sort of thing was a clear subtext of Amy Chua’s Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother. Many (most?) Asian American kids who grew up with immigrant parents were barraged with assertions about the disreputable character of their “American” (white) friends, and how it was important to keep on the straight & narrow. Immigrants from Asia often perceive white Americans to be sexually obsessed, lazy, and prone to a general amorality and fixation on short term hedonic interests. These are polite ways to condense the sort of attitude many Asian immigrants have toward the white American mainstream, which they worry will absorb and corrupt their children. Dash must know this, as he probably had immigrant parents, or was friends with people from immigrant backgrounds. Most white Americans don’t know this, partly because most white Americans don’t have non-white friends. But anyone from an Asian American background would be aware of the stereotypes and perceptions.

The tacit misrepresentation of Asian Americans here, not acknowledging that they do engage in the exact sort of behavior you are hypothetically positing they might engage in and so alienate white people, is not surprising. Asian Americans are often simply bit characters in a drama involving broader social and political streams which dominate the political landscape. For many decades conservatives asserted that Asian Americans were “natural Republicans,” and expressed confusion as to why more were not voting for their party. But this was an empty talking point; over the past generation the Republican party has become the de facto white Christian party, and many Asian Americans are not Christian, and all are not white. Some conservative Christian Asian Americans can identify with Republicans because of their religious ties, but socially conservative Indian Americans, to give one example, naturally have a difficult time identifying with a party which wears evangelical Protestantism on its sleeve as modern Republicans often do. This isn’t rocket science.

Screenshot 2016-05-12 21.34.16 On the flip side of this, many liberals erase Asian Americans from the landscape of our culture if it does not serve their framework of white privilege uber alles. When it came out many people pointed me to The New York Times infographic, Money, Race and Success: How Your School District Compares. The only mention of Asians is this: “Reliable estimates were not available for Asian-Americans.” But my wife pointed out to me that within the chart itself you still had Asian Americans tabulated! If you check the bubble plots at the top right , you see schools like Cupertino Union. It’s 73% Asian American. If you read this blog you know that it irritates me that Asian Americans are routinely elided out of these stories. It’s too regular to be due to a lack of data. It’s because it doesn’t fit the narrative of white privilege and domination. So Asian Americans are skipped over to make the picture neat and tidy.

Instead of taking reality as it is, in all its complexity and nuance, people attempt to fit the data into a narrative straightjacket. Complexity is a talking point only when confronted with a hypothesis you disagree with. When the data does not cooperate in a simple fashion with your own model, the data conveniently goes unmentioned. In a putatively multicultural America the dominant narrative on the Left side of the cultural and political spectrum is that of a dichotomy between whites, who have privilege, and non-whites, who are oppressed.

The black American template, unique, and rooted deeply in the soil of this country, is injected into strange and inappropriate contexts when it comes to people whose ancestors are from Latin America and Asia. White liberals and minorities are assumed to naturally form an alliance against the majority white rump; white liberals because of their moral virtue, and minorities because of their interests. The injustices experienced by someone with a name like Raheem Washington, who grew up in the inner city, are rather easy to enumerate. Raheem Washington begins life with some disadvantages. But there is a particular mainstream narrative where someone with a name like Deepa Iyer (Update: When I wrote this post I actually didn’t know who “Deepa Iyer” was, I just thought up a plausible name! Turns out there really is a Deepa Iyer of some prominence!!!), who might have elite educations, affluent parents, and a good secure career, has more common with Raheem Washington than their white colleagues at the university that they might work at. And of course, there is the further aspect that often goes unmentioned that someone with the name Iyer is from the top echelons of South Asia’s caste system, and so benefits from thousands of years of privilege! And yet it is common among Indian Americans for literal Brahmins to style themselves PoC tribunes of the plebs, oppressed by white America.

A genuine multiculturalism would actually acknowledge the real empirical texture of this nation’s changing demographics. And, a genuine multiculturalism rooted in fact, rather than vacuous critical theory, would dig deep into the richness of human history, rather than outlining broad sketches where white privilege reigns supreme from Sumer to America. As it is, often liberal multiculturalism is simply an inversion of white supremacist theory. That’s unfortunate, because there are real political debates and values divergences which we can grapple with and debate as a society, but the water is immediately muddied and when the facts are subordinate to an ideological narrative. No side really wishes to live in the reality we are given, instead of their imagining.

* Many of the things I said above can be generalized to the American Right as well, though the particularities will differ.

** I shouldn’t have to say this, but any racist comment isn’t going to be published. That’s not going to stop some of you, but I thought I’d give you fair warning.

 
• Category: Ideology, Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Asian Americans 
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  1. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    The Harold and Kumar movies show the effect you’re talking about. The villains are boorish whites. Unless they’re female and like the protagonists of course

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  2. I’m struck by the fact that the very term “Asian American” is pretty useless for these discussions. East Asian and Southeast Asian and South Asian and Pacific Islander are all rather different populations with very different histories in the US and lumping them all together contributes greatly to the confusion you’re discussing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SFG
    That's true, but I think South Asians and East Asians have similar templates of success and hard work that make them both relevant to Razib's thesis.
    , @Jim
    I suppose a hypothetical blond blue-eyed Russian immigrating from Vladivostok to the US is an "Asian American".
    , @Razib Khan
    it's a stretch. but it's not useless. and asian american kids who grow up in the states tend to create a new identity. that being said, the gap between south and non-south asians is particularly large. probably the most for muslim s. asians and NE asians the most (one of the ways asian american scholars justify the identity is the connection between buddhism and india, which is obviously irrelevant to muslim s. asians since they often are not sympathetic to dharmic religions).

    also, for the purposes of this post the dynamic is the same in terms of what parents say about white people.
  3. I remember Jon Stewart had Bill O’Reilly on TDS to lecture him about the oppressive institutionalized White privilege America is engulfed in. Bill quickly retorted “So there must be Asian privilege too, right?” Stewart looked visibly flustered, and brushed it aside, asserting that it was a discussion for another time. Unfortunately, Bill obliged and they continued onto other points. I wish he held his feet to the fire. This is why conservatives lose; they never go for the jugular.

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    • Replies: @Harold
    That’s not why they lose. They lose because they work from the same false axioms as the left and the left makes more sense to more people given those false axioms.
  4. “It’s too regular to be due to a lack of data. It’s because it doesn’t fit the narrative of white privilege and domination.”

    The most egregious examples of this are the plethora of “Silicon Valley is too White” stories one finds in the Atlantic, Slate etc

    Whites are clearly underrepresented in the tech sector. But “Silicon Valley is too Asian and not Black enough” is counter-narrative.

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  5. Have you put any thought into MacDonald’s thesis in Culture of Critique, Razib?

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    in the early 2000s. not much anymore. google me on it.
  6. @Polynices
    I'm struck by the fact that the very term "Asian American" is pretty useless for these discussions. East Asian and Southeast Asian and South Asian and Pacific Islander are all rather different populations with very different histories in the US and lumping them all together contributes greatly to the confusion you're discussing.

    That’s true, but I think South Asians and East Asians have similar templates of success and hard work that make them both relevant to Razib’s thesis.

    Read More
  7. How dare you expect objectivity instead of distortion for political points when it comes to discussing your race! More Asian exceptionalism! You’re not American until your race has been exploited by both Fox AND Vox simultaneously regarding the same issue. Welcome to hell!
    Seriously, though, I remember you mentioning the Appalachia point on twitter. It’s a good one. I came across yet another “Busting the ‘model minority’ myth” article yesterday and they never notice their false logic would be “busted” by this very notion. I’d swear those articles are written by a bot – they’re seemingly infinite and are all the same.

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  8. @Polynices
    I'm struck by the fact that the very term "Asian American" is pretty useless for these discussions. East Asian and Southeast Asian and South Asian and Pacific Islander are all rather different populations with very different histories in the US and lumping them all together contributes greatly to the confusion you're discussing.

    I suppose a hypothetical blond blue-eyed Russian immigrating from Vladivostok to the US is an “Asian American”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mike Keesey
    Or Israeli immigrants. Natalie Portman's an Asian-American.

    "Asia" is kind of like a "wastebasket taxon". It's not really a thing, it's a thing minus one of its subsets. It would be as if we had a word for all of Eurasia except for South Asia, or something like that. (See also: "The Orient".)
    , @RadicalCenter
    Of course, very few people living around Vladivostok have blue eyes or blond hair, let alone both, so it would rarely happen. But see your point.
  9. Funny, that you pose the question of Deepa Iyer and then post some random hot Asian lady.

    Disclaimer — I know Deepa. She may be the product of 2000 years of selective Tamil Brahmin breeding — and we are probably in some way related since her family is came from a place about 20 miles from mine.

    But they forgot to control for looks in that cycle.

    We may live in a world were Priayanka Chopra can get on US TV, or even aishwarya rai (to use a south indian).

    But the Deepa’s of the world will also be on a crusade since the real selection in the US is sexual and economic.

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    to be clear, i did not know deepa iyer was a real person. i google her now. just made up a plausible name.
  10. I agree that the left in general tends to underplay differences in the folkways of American culture (you won’t believe the number of people I run into who insist there is no such thing as “Southern culture” any longer, for example, and the real divide is urban/rural – never mind how rural Vermont votes). I think a lot of this is because of the odd cultural norm which has developed on the left that it is always bad to criticize any culture you are not a part of. In order to enact some sort of social change though, generally cultural norms need to be altered, so the solution is to deny cultural agency to the various American folkways and just subsume all of it under “whiteness.”

    That said, I think it’s pretty self evident that the cultural differences between Asian immigrant groups are vast – not only vaster than those between different white American folkways, but considerably more than those of different Latino groups in the U.S. Thus I don’t think there’s anything wrong with noting that for the most part the Asian-American success story driven by Chinese Americans, Indian Americans, Korean Americans, and Japanese Americans. As long as you also note that these three groups alone are over half of the Asian-American population, meaning their experience basically is the typical Asian-American experience.

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    • Replies: @marcel proust

    Chinese Americans, Indian Americans, Korean Americans, and Japanese Americans. As long as you also note that these three groups
     
    Is this a counting error, or are you aggregating Korean- and Japanese-Americans? If the latter, briefly explain why that is reasonable: shared culture in the old countries, or similar experiences in this country? Having spent nearly my whole life in the snow belt of the NorthEast and upper midwest, I have minimal experience with members of these groups (other than a close friend who belongs to both: I suppose I could ask her, but ... )
    , @RadicalCenter
    There are TWICE AS MANY Filipino and part-Filipino people in the USA as there are people who are full/part-Korean. The gap is much larger for Filipino versus Japanese.

    According to this source, analyzing US Census 2010 data, there are already slightly more Filipino people in the USA than Indians (from India):

    http://globalnation.inquirer.net/30477/filipinos-2nd-largest-asian-group-in-us-census-shows

    Filipinos are catching up to the Chinese in America in numbers, too, 3.4 million versus 4.0 million. Filipinos also catching up somewhat economically, too.

    Filipinos don't get the discussion and attention they should compared to other Asian groups. (On current trends, Filipinos will fairly soon be the largest racial group in the state of Hawaii and in the territory of Guam. Already Hawaii has more people identifying only as Filipino than identifying only as Japanese. Hawaii also has more people identifying as part-Filipino than identifying as part-Japanese. Whites are already a tiny minority in Guam and a shrinking majority in Hawaii.)

    http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/14926806/filipinos-now-second-largest-population-group-in-hawaii
  11. @Polynices
    I'm struck by the fact that the very term "Asian American" is pretty useless for these discussions. East Asian and Southeast Asian and South Asian and Pacific Islander are all rather different populations with very different histories in the US and lumping them all together contributes greatly to the confusion you're discussing.

    it’s a stretch. but it’s not useless. and asian american kids who grow up in the states tend to create a new identity. that being said, the gap between south and non-south asians is particularly large. probably the most for muslim s. asians and NE asians the most (one of the ways asian american scholars justify the identity is the connection between buddhism and india, which is obviously irrelevant to muslim s. asians since they often are not sympathetic to dharmic religions).

    also, for the purposes of this post the dynamic is the same in terms of what parents say about white people.

    Read More
  12. @charlie
    Funny, that you pose the question of Deepa Iyer and then post some random hot Asian lady.

    Disclaimer -- I know Deepa. She may be the product of 2000 years of selective Tamil Brahmin breeding -- and we are probably in some way related since her family is came from a place about 20 miles from mine.

    But they forgot to control for looks in that cycle.

    We may live in a world were Priayanka Chopra can get on US TV, or even aishwarya rai (to use a south indian).

    But the Deepa's of the world will also be on a crusade since the real selection in the US is sexual and economic.

    to be clear, i did not know deepa iyer was a real person. i google her now. just made up a plausible name.

    Read More
    • Replies: @charlie
    Oh she is real and she would hate you!

    You should talk about the Mike Honda / Rohit Khanna race in CA as inter-asian competition .

    (Khanna is an idiot as well.)
  13. @AnonymousCoward
    Have you put any thought into MacDonald's thesis in Culture of Critique, Razib?

    in the early 2000s. not much anymore. google me on it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Razib, I don't know what the relevance of MacDonald is to this blogpost (I can think of a few reasons, but wouldn't have asked it here), but I got interested and found this blog post, and some similar ones, but I didn't find anything you wrote on the topic. According to that linked blogpost there was a "flood of criticism" from gnxp, to which MacDonald responded (?), but I could find nothing of substance. Could you perhaps help me with keywords or links?
  14. @Karl Zimmerman
    I agree that the left in general tends to underplay differences in the folkways of American culture (you won't believe the number of people I run into who insist there is no such thing as "Southern culture" any longer, for example, and the real divide is urban/rural - never mind how rural Vermont votes). I think a lot of this is because of the odd cultural norm which has developed on the left that it is always bad to criticize any culture you are not a part of. In order to enact some sort of social change though, generally cultural norms need to be altered, so the solution is to deny cultural agency to the various American folkways and just subsume all of it under "whiteness."

    That said, I think it's pretty self evident that the cultural differences between Asian immigrant groups are vast - not only vaster than those between different white American folkways, but considerably more than those of different Latino groups in the U.S. Thus I don't think there's anything wrong with noting that for the most part the Asian-American success story driven by Chinese Americans, Indian Americans, Korean Americans, and Japanese Americans. As long as you also note that these three groups alone are over half of the Asian-American population, meaning their experience basically is the typical Asian-American experience.

    Chinese Americans, Indian Americans, Korean Americans, and Japanese Americans. As long as you also note that these three groups

    Is this a counting error, or are you aggregating Korean- and Japanese-Americans? If the latter, briefly explain why that is reasonable: shared culture in the old countries, or similar experiences in this country? Having spent nearly my whole life in the snow belt of the NorthEast and upper midwest, I have minimal experience with members of these groups (other than a close friend who belongs to both: I suppose I could ask her, but … )

    Read More
    • Replies: @Karl Zimmerman
    Erp. That was a counting error on my part. At first I didn't include Japanese Americans, given they are no longer a demographically important group of Asian Americans (they intermarry with white Americans at high rates, and the number has actually been dropping in recent years). But given they tend to be part of the "model minority" group of Asian ethnicities, I decided to include them after I was done with my post. I recalculated the percentage, but didn't think to check my sentence structure.

    Sadly I often make such "word salad" both professionally and recreationally, when I'll write coherent sentences, go back and edit one side to account for some factual change, and forget I have to reread the whole sentence to account for the alteration.
  15. two further points

    1) among asian american activists etc. it’s pretty obvious there is a ‘core’ exemplar of asian american. it’s chinese-japanese-korean. SE asians are further out, with vietnamese closest. then you have filipinos and assorted SE asians. and of course s. asians are much much further out racially and culturally, so you have stuff like this:

    2) a reader emailed me and pointed out that jewish immigrants <1950 would often say the same thing to their kids that asian immigrant parents do today in relation to native born americans.

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    • Replies: @jtgw
    Ashkenazi Jews have a long history of joking about the goyishe kop; the fact that their Christian neighbors were generally illiterate peasants with IQs of about 1 SD below theirs meshed very nicely with the ancient rabbinical injunctions against mixing with the nations. My wife's family is Jewish but very liberal and open-minded, but they often talk about the downright paranoia about gentile American society that still afflicts their Jewish friends and associates. These friends will talk about being the only Jew in the room the way that whites will talk about walking into black neighborhoods.

    Come to think of it, I wonder if, in a Baltimore context, fear of "gentiles" is really just code for fear of blacks.
  16. @Razib Khan
    two further points

    1) among asian american activists etc. it's pretty obvious there is a 'core' exemplar of asian american. it's chinese-japanese-korean. SE asians are further out, with vietnamese closest. then you have filipinos and assorted SE asians. and of course s. asians are much much further out racially and culturally, so you have stuff like this:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm9OVdJBiHY

    2) a reader emailed me and pointed out that jewish immigrants <1950 would often say the same thing to their kids that asian immigrant parents do today in relation to native born americans.

    Ashkenazi Jews have a long history of joking about the goyishe kop; the fact that their Christian neighbors were generally illiterate peasants with IQs of about 1 SD below theirs meshed very nicely with the ancient rabbinical injunctions against mixing with the nations. My wife’s family is Jewish but very liberal and open-minded, but they often talk about the downright paranoia about gentile American society that still afflicts their Jewish friends and associates. These friends will talk about being the only Jew in the room the way that whites will talk about walking into black neighborhoods.

    Come to think of it, I wonder if, in a Baltimore context, fear of “gentiles” is really just code for fear of blacks.

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    • Replies: @Joe Q.

    These friends will talk about being the only Jew in the room the way that whites will talk about walking into black neighborhoods.
     
    I've heard a lot of "only Jew in the room" type comments but it's an ethnic diversity observation more often than not (i.e., "everyone in this room is a European-American [nominal] Christian except me"). I personally have never heard it used to express a feeling of being threatened.
  17. @Jim
    I suppose a hypothetical blond blue-eyed Russian immigrating from Vladivostok to the US is an "Asian American".

    Or Israeli immigrants. Natalie Portman’s an Asian-American.

    “Asia” is kind of like a “wastebasket taxon”. It’s not really a thing, it’s a thing minus one of its subsets. It would be as if we had a word for all of Eurasia except for South Asia, or something like that. (See also: “The Orient”.)

    Read More
  18. @Razib Khan
    to be clear, i did not know deepa iyer was a real person. i google her now. just made up a plausible name.

    Oh she is real and she would hate you!

    You should talk about the Mike Honda / Rohit Khanna race in CA as inter-asian competition .

    (Khanna is an idiot as well.)

    Read More
  19. Filipinos are actually second to only Indians in terms of their household income ($75,000 compared to $88,000), unless my source is outdated

    http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2012/06/2012-sdt-asian-americans-0181.png

    Surprisingly Korean-Americans seem to be the closest the the American norm.

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    Surprisingly Korean-Americans seem to be the closest the the American norm.


    lots of korean american immigrants have poor english and so are shut out of skilled labor market. their children do very well since they can speak fluently.

    good catch re: household income.
  20. @Eric SF
    Filipinos are actually second to only Indians in terms of their household income ($75,000 compared to $88,000), unless my source is outdated
    http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2012/06/2012-sdt-asian-americans-0181.png

    Surprisingly Korean-Americans seem to be the closest the the American norm.

    Surprisingly Korean-Americans seem to be the closest the the American norm.

    lots of korean american immigrants have poor english and so are shut out of skilled labor market. their children do very well since they can speak fluently.

    good catch re: household income.

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    • Replies: @Eric SF
    Sounds about right regarding many Korean-Americans I grew up with.
  21. one reader thinks this post is an anti-white diatribe. lol.

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    • Replies: @APaige
    I did not read it that way. I am sure most Asians are smart enough to know that the fields they excel in are almost wholly European in origin. The last major invention or discovery that was non-European was the compass.
    , @Michelle
    I guess a lot of white and Black people think it's all about us!!! I plan to show the video to my Sikh assistant, who looks like Princess Jasmine (everyone tells her that, and she really does not get tired of hearing it), is fast as hell, though also regrettably sloppy at her work as hell, and is interested in the very dark side of human behavior, as am I.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Castro_kidnappings,

    She is a criminal justice major and obsessed with the Cleveland kidnapping case. She plans to write her thesis about it. Asians get lost in the mix. It isn't all "Black and white".
  22. @Razib Khan
    Surprisingly Korean-Americans seem to be the closest the the American norm.


    lots of korean american immigrants have poor english and so are shut out of skilled labor market. their children do very well since they can speak fluently.

    good catch re: household income.

    Sounds about right regarding many Korean-Americans I grew up with.

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  23. America, always taking in these hard working immigrants who think they can reap the rewards from the system, and not end up supporting it and becoming part of it.

    The only way the East Asian bunch don’t end up like everybody else is if they maintain exclusivity based on their genetic endowment. On the other hand, the great mixing bowl of America tends to suck in all minorities and blend them into America over time. After all, aside from the hardcore Amish, Hassidic, and a few other communities, most of America in four generations of city life ends up extremely sorted by genetic ability (which may end up replicating the Indian caste experience).

    The really funny part is the predominant upper class mostly maintains their position, but Gregory Cochran and Henry Harpending’s boiling off theories apply to all populations- so what are we selecting for in America?

    It appears we are selecting for meritocratic entrance to various levels of society through educational selection- which explicitly discriminates against those who lack genetic ability or the cultural package to meet those hurdles- I would note that many outsider groups explicitly discriminate internally against participation in the predominant system (do well in school, you are ostracized by the social structure of the community).

    Now looking at Tiger Mother’s cultural package- gee are we set up for our https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine-rank_system examinations to preserve our place in society, or what? And when those children fall out of that rigid system into the predominant culture, they will rise or sink based on the class based cultural package, plus their genetic advantage in exploiting that package.

    One of the problems of large scale immigration is the belief that the cultural package from the old country will thrive and survive the predominant culture- when almost all evidence from America indicates the primary culture will imprint on immigrants.

    For good or bad.

    I find that racism is really discrimination against substandard cultural packages by the predominant part of the culture that actually rules America- in short, if you are a gang member, low education, then you get fed into the criminal justice machine- and guess what, that applies if you are black, white (look at the educational attainment of white prisoners), native American, etc.

    While we seem to want to blame genetics and implicitly race for so much, the cultural package that comes with various parts of society is also complicit in individual and collective outcomes.

    I guess the part that makes it all difficult is one realizes that the choice to participate in various cultural packages is free and open, but the nurture part of upbringing will be so strong in most that they will never exit their predominant social milieu during their lifetimes.

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  24. If Asians really believed White Americans are a lazy, hedonistic bunch they wouldn’t queue up to immigrate to the country those uncouth savages built.
    The truth is rather that over-protecting Asian mothers are afraid of their precious ones being dragged into the temporary hedonistic atmosphere of highschool and college. Where on the other hand their kids have little to gain due to their very nature.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Both asian-american parents (like my wife) and european-american white parents (like me) RIGHTLY fear the stupidity, ignorance, laziness, authoritarian and collectivist and PC political indoctrination, identity confusion, sexual perversion, disease-spreading promiscuity, anti-white hatred, anti-America hatred, anti-Christian bigotry that our children will be surrounded with in many of "America's" universities and high schools.

    Do you have children? If you do, it's odd that you wouldn't share most of the concerns of good Asian and white parents on this score.

    Any parent who is paying attention and is not painfully naïve should be seriously considering what sacrifices they can make in order to afford home-schooling, sending their children to a private school, and/or moving to a different region, instead of consigning their posterity to the indoctrination/hook-up centers known as "public" schools.

    And what do you mean by saying that Asian kids don't have much to gain from schooling by their nature? Is that what you're saying?

    , @Pat Gilligan

    If Asians really believed White Americans are a lazy, hedonistic bunch they wouldn’t queue up to immigrate to the country those uncouth savages built.
     
    I sometimes wonder if this escapes East Asian and East Indian immigrants to the U.S? Or even first generation? They exercise discipline and work their asses off because they equate education with material gain and success. Most likely they study STEM. They take engineering classes and math classes and you wonder if it ever strikes them that it is almost entirely a product of white males? Gauss, Fourier, Laplace, Lagrange, ... And they look at the great technological innovations and innovators and again it's almost exclusively white males. I could go on but I think you catch my drift.
    , @notanon

    If Asians really believed White Americans are a lazy, hedonistic bunch they wouldn’t queue up to immigrate to the country those uncouth savages built.
     
    Sure they would if they believed it was mostly luck.

    Personally I think there's a sweetspot on the "more recently barbarian" spectrum which people move past unless they are aware of and consciously try and maintain it.
    , @Harshmellow
    I don't think Asians believe that White Americans are intrinsically lazy and hedonistic types. I certainly suspect many Asians, as much as they may have hated the British Imperialist, respected the British for their accomplishments. The fact is that European and American civilization has been in a period of decadent decline since WWI, and "expressive individualism" and "egalitarianism" AKA liberalism, is the ideological justification for the decadent decline (at least as James Burnham argued).

    The reality is the White American probably will not be too hard to push aside, in fact most White Americans will probably welcome it. Nor will the Blacks or the Hispanics likely provide much of a competition to the Tiger children. I don't necessarily get the Asian proclivity to vote for the party of Decadence, but perhaps it is a stepping stone. The danger is, of course, that Asians get infected with the whiny victimology and self-defeating mythology of standard Leftism. It is pretty easy to shift from secularism to decadence.
  25. There is a Buddhist parable about the monk who spent years in deep meditation to envision himself with a set of antlers. Finally it got so he was unable to walk out the door because his antlers were too wide.

    Some bureaucrat, for his mystical reasons, imagined that there was a real world group called “Asian”. Since then others have been in deep meditation until they have come to believe that “Asian” has a real existence that can then be investigated.
    I will disagree with you that the group “Black” has much more of a claim to reality. It includes enslaved Africans from a heterogeneous tribal background. It also includes descendants of this group whose background is mixed with European and Amerindian. It also seems to include those of post-slavery Africans immigrants. Finally it does not include descendants of Africans enslaved in Hispanic America.

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  26. I would add that while Asian Americans in general suffer from discreet (or not so discreet) anti-Asian quotas that are put in place to limit their numbers in elite institutions, the kind of Asian-American intellectuals who write books about “POC solidarity” and run blogs called “racialicous” are in a different category; they are net (niche) beneficiaries of the “Asians as picked-upon-POC” framework they promote about Asians in America and this provides an obvious motivation for them to stick to it… For example, it gives them victim status in a social and academic setting where victim status is a very desirable good.
    I understand that Asian Americans are not getting jobs on diversity quotas in most places, but the victim status still has clear psychological and social benefits and I strongly suspect that it also protects mediocre work (or whatever passes for work in the social sciences) from criticism OVER AND ABOVE the protection enjoyed by their White colleagues. Imagine 5 equally mediocre bullshitters who happen to be critical studies faculty at a liberal institution. They are not all equally protected. The White faculty member may benefit from connections and “White privilege”, the Jewish faculty from Jewish networking, but what defends the Asian guy? He or she has to rely on the POC card. Maybe they are still at a disadvantage versus equally mediocre Jews or Whites, but it is better than nothing. My point is that this motivation cannot be excluded when we think of WHY some Asian-American intellectual is pushing X or Y crap. In fact, I can think of examples of Indian-American writers and intellectuals who are clearly not being held to very high standards by the New York Times types and I suspect that successful manipulation of White guilt/POC privilege plays a part..

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  27. @jtgw
    Ashkenazi Jews have a long history of joking about the goyishe kop; the fact that their Christian neighbors were generally illiterate peasants with IQs of about 1 SD below theirs meshed very nicely with the ancient rabbinical injunctions against mixing with the nations. My wife's family is Jewish but very liberal and open-minded, but they often talk about the downright paranoia about gentile American society that still afflicts their Jewish friends and associates. These friends will talk about being the only Jew in the room the way that whites will talk about walking into black neighborhoods.

    Come to think of it, I wonder if, in a Baltimore context, fear of "gentiles" is really just code for fear of blacks.

    These friends will talk about being the only Jew in the room the way that whites will talk about walking into black neighborhoods.

    I’ve heard a lot of “only Jew in the room” type comments but it’s an ethnic diversity observation more often than not (i.e., “everyone in this room is a European-American [nominal] Christian except me”). I personally have never heard it used to express a feeling of being threatened.

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    • Replies: @jtgw
    I can see how it could be a neutral observance, but according to my in-laws, this was definitely not how it was meant and they found it strange. But her family live in Baltimore, in a rich white neighborhood, and as I said, it occurred to me that maybe it was code for fear of di shvartsen. Fear of white gentiles is just not rational in this day and age, but it's no doubt more socially acceptable to say that non-Jews make you nervous, where naive listeners would assume you meant whites, than to say outright that blacks make you nervous.

    But then again, my in-laws say they've met fellow Jews were not at all dissembling about their fear and contempt for blacks.
  28. I’m somewhat surprised to see you think of Asian American as a coherent cultural category.

    I believe that I’ve typically read Asian Americans, at least those in generations beyond the immigrants themselves, as just a subset of upper middle class white Americans. Perhaps I’m not showing much introspection, but I feel that I have few preconceptions that wouldn’t equally apply to others with more or less the same accent. Maybe that’s part of the problem – not recognizing the degree of difference and the boundedness of the category. Or, simply not recognizing that Asian Americans bring certainty uncertainties to their interactions with white Americans.

    What is it that makes Indian Americans and Chinese Americans part of the same demographic? Is it mostly their treatment by white Americans? The fact that immigrants from those places tend to come from similar class backgrounds in their native countries? Or something else? The epigenetics passed down from ancestors who breathed oxygen that drifted on downdrafts from the Himalayas.

    And, I’d be curious what percent of white Americans under 50 don’t have friends who are non-white. I’d bet it’s drastically lower. While black-white is a huge problematic divide, Hispanic and Asian immigrants mostly came to the country after 55 year olds had already developed the bulk of their friendship circles.

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    I’m somewhat surprised to see you think of Asian American as a coherent cultural category.


    i didn't say that.
    , @notanon

    What is it that makes Indian Americans and Chinese Americans part of the same demographic?
     
    Similar positions on the "more recently barbarian" spectrum.

    If you took every ethnic group and gave them a score of say
    - 1 point per century of herding
    - 2 (possibly more) points per century of farming
    since they were hunter-gatherers and then ranked them, the ones with similar scores would be similar in certain traits

    imo.

    Large chunks of China and India would have very high scores.

    North Europeans would have quite a low score - which is both a good thing and a bad thing imo depending on context.
  29. @marcel proust

    Chinese Americans, Indian Americans, Korean Americans, and Japanese Americans. As long as you also note that these three groups
     
    Is this a counting error, or are you aggregating Korean- and Japanese-Americans? If the latter, briefly explain why that is reasonable: shared culture in the old countries, or similar experiences in this country? Having spent nearly my whole life in the snow belt of the NorthEast and upper midwest, I have minimal experience with members of these groups (other than a close friend who belongs to both: I suppose I could ask her, but ... )

    Erp. That was a counting error on my part. At first I didn’t include Japanese Americans, given they are no longer a demographically important group of Asian Americans (they intermarry with white Americans at high rates, and the number has actually been dropping in recent years). But given they tend to be part of the “model minority” group of Asian ethnicities, I decided to include them after I was done with my post. I recalculated the percentage, but didn’t think to check my sentence structure.

    Sadly I often make such “word salad” both professionally and recreationally, when I’ll write coherent sentences, go back and edit one side to account for some factual change, and forget I have to reread the whole sentence to account for the alteration.

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  30. @Jim
    I suppose a hypothetical blond blue-eyed Russian immigrating from Vladivostok to the US is an "Asian American".

    Of course, very few people living around Vladivostok have blue eyes or blond hair, let alone both, so it would rarely happen. But see your point.

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  31. @Karl Zimmerman
    I agree that the left in general tends to underplay differences in the folkways of American culture (you won't believe the number of people I run into who insist there is no such thing as "Southern culture" any longer, for example, and the real divide is urban/rural - never mind how rural Vermont votes). I think a lot of this is because of the odd cultural norm which has developed on the left that it is always bad to criticize any culture you are not a part of. In order to enact some sort of social change though, generally cultural norms need to be altered, so the solution is to deny cultural agency to the various American folkways and just subsume all of it under "whiteness."

    That said, I think it's pretty self evident that the cultural differences between Asian immigrant groups are vast - not only vaster than those between different white American folkways, but considerably more than those of different Latino groups in the U.S. Thus I don't think there's anything wrong with noting that for the most part the Asian-American success story driven by Chinese Americans, Indian Americans, Korean Americans, and Japanese Americans. As long as you also note that these three groups alone are over half of the Asian-American population, meaning their experience basically is the typical Asian-American experience.

    There are TWICE AS MANY Filipino and part-Filipino people in the USA as there are people who are full/part-Korean. The gap is much larger for Filipino versus Japanese.

    According to this source, analyzing US Census 2010 data, there are already slightly more Filipino people in the USA than Indians (from India):

    http://globalnation.inquirer.net/30477/filipinos-2nd-largest-asian-group-in-us-census-shows

    Filipinos are catching up to the Chinese in America in numbers, too, 3.4 million versus 4.0 million. Filipinos also catching up somewhat economically, too.

    Filipinos don’t get the discussion and attention they should compared to other Asian groups. (On current trends, Filipinos will fairly soon be the largest racial group in the state of Hawaii and in the territory of Guam. Already Hawaii has more people identifying only as Filipino than identifying only as Japanese. Hawaii also has more people identifying as part-Filipino than identifying as part-Japanese. Whites are already a tiny minority in Guam and a shrinking majority in Hawaii.)

    http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/14926806/filipinos-now-second-largest-population-group-in-hawaii

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "Filipinos are catching up to the Chinese in America in numbers, too, 3.4 million versus 4.0 million. Filipinos also catching up somewhat economically, too.

    Filipinos don’t get the discussion and attention they should compared to other Asian groups. (On current trends, Filipinos will fairly soon be the largest racial group in the state of Hawaii and in the territory of Guam. Already Hawaii has more people identifying only as Filipino than identifying only as Japanese. Hawaii also has more people identifying as part-Filipino than identifying as part-Japanese. Whites are already a tiny minority in Guam and a shrinking majority in Hawaii.)"

    The majority of Asians who live in Nevada are Filipinos.

  32. @BB753
    If Asians really believed White Americans are a lazy, hedonistic bunch they wouldn't queue up to immigrate to the country those uncouth savages built.
    The truth is rather that over-protecting Asian mothers are afraid of their precious ones being dragged into the temporary hedonistic atmosphere of highschool and college. Where on the other hand their kids have little to gain due to their very nature.

    Both asian-american parents (like my wife) and european-american white parents (like me) RIGHTLY fear the stupidity, ignorance, laziness, authoritarian and collectivist and PC political indoctrination, identity confusion, sexual perversion, disease-spreading promiscuity, anti-white hatred, anti-America hatred, anti-Christian bigotry that our children will be surrounded with in many of “America’s” universities and high schools.

    Do you have children? If you do, it’s odd that you wouldn’t share most of the concerns of good Asian and white parents on this score.

    Any parent who is paying attention and is not painfully naïve should be seriously considering what sacrifices they can make in order to afford home-schooling, sending their children to a private school, and/or moving to a different region, instead of consigning their posterity to the indoctrination/hook-up centers known as “public” schools.

    And what do you mean by saying that Asian kids don’t have much to gain from schooling by their nature? Is that what you’re saying?

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    • Replies: @BB753
    I agree with as to the evils of modern education.
    And I meant that Asians don't have much to gain from the educational system because they won't enjoy the party/frat atmosphere that much, being for the most part introverted low testosterone kids, and because they are good students who'll be dragged down by other less gifted students.
  33. Hmm…. In a way you might think what White Americans say about Native Americans would be the neater analogy for what Asian Americans say about White Americans, in terms of the dimension of cultural characteristics that differ, and the shape of the cultural “pathologies” and variations.

    E.g. rather than Black Americans, who seem pretty different in direction, Whites are more intermediate to Asian-Native Americans in drinking, drug use, suicide rates, concern for climbing the career ladder and following trends vs traditionalism and following the parental occupation, rates of higher education relative to SAT scores, urbanisation, environmentalism, STDs, teen pregnancy, rates of military service, etc. Asian Americans, as an aggregate group, seem very much almost the opposite of the Native American contingent, culturally (the least Native Americans?).

    Many Asian Americans of the sort that wrote that article probably wouldn’t like it if you said that very much though.

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  34. “For example, there is often a focus on the diversity among Asian Americans, ranging from affluent Indian Americans, to groups with more conventional socioeconomic profiles like Filipinos, and finally, those which are somewhat disadvantaged such the Hmong. This is to show that Asian Americans are not a model minority…some of them are struggling. But the logic is not applied to whites! Those who purport to debunk the myth of the model minority would not accede to debunking the idea of white privilege by pointing to the state of Appalachia, and rural white America more generally. Group averages for we, but not thee?”

    Social Justice Warriors sees the White race as being monolithic and zero percent diverse. So all White people to them are privileged, including the Scots-Irish even though they make up the majority of the White underclass in this country and they tend to have a shorter life expectancy on average than Non Scots-Irish Whites.

    The Scots-Irish are the Hmong of the White race.

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    • Replies: @patrick
    You could also say the Hmong are the Scots-Irish of East Asia. Like the Scots, they were warlike hill people who were often at odds with the central government.
  35. @BB753
    If Asians really believed White Americans are a lazy, hedonistic bunch they wouldn't queue up to immigrate to the country those uncouth savages built.
    The truth is rather that over-protecting Asian mothers are afraid of their precious ones being dragged into the temporary hedonistic atmosphere of highschool and college. Where on the other hand their kids have little to gain due to their very nature.

    If Asians really believed White Americans are a lazy, hedonistic bunch they wouldn’t queue up to immigrate to the country those uncouth savages built.

    I sometimes wonder if this escapes East Asian and East Indian immigrants to the U.S? Or even first generation? They exercise discipline and work their asses off because they equate education with material gain and success. Most likely they study STEM. They take engineering classes and math classes and you wonder if it ever strikes them that it is almost entirely a product of white males? Gauss, Fourier, Laplace, Lagrange, … And they look at the great technological innovations and innovators and again it’s almost exclusively white males. I could go on but I think you catch my drift.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    East India and East Asia have a very rich history with incredible civilizations that made lasting contributions of their own. We typically don't cover these in depth in the West, which may upset them, but then again, I knew some highly educated students from China who'd been taught just as little of Greek and Roman civilization. I'd be very surprised if East Asians and Indians have the same inferiority complex manifesting as OMG Eurocentrism! I'm oppressed by being forced to read about "white men's" accomplishments! sentiment that you see in some other groups.
    , @BB753
    They don't need to learn about the history of science and technology. They just need to take a good look at the West to realise our culture is worth learning. The Japanese, as always, were the first to realise they needed to catch up with Europe..
  36. @RadicalCenter
    There are TWICE AS MANY Filipino and part-Filipino people in the USA as there are people who are full/part-Korean. The gap is much larger for Filipino versus Japanese.

    According to this source, analyzing US Census 2010 data, there are already slightly more Filipino people in the USA than Indians (from India):

    http://globalnation.inquirer.net/30477/filipinos-2nd-largest-asian-group-in-us-census-shows

    Filipinos are catching up to the Chinese in America in numbers, too, 3.4 million versus 4.0 million. Filipinos also catching up somewhat economically, too.

    Filipinos don't get the discussion and attention they should compared to other Asian groups. (On current trends, Filipinos will fairly soon be the largest racial group in the state of Hawaii and in the territory of Guam. Already Hawaii has more people identifying only as Filipino than identifying only as Japanese. Hawaii also has more people identifying as part-Filipino than identifying as part-Japanese. Whites are already a tiny minority in Guam and a shrinking majority in Hawaii.)

    http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/14926806/filipinos-now-second-largest-population-group-in-hawaii

    “Filipinos are catching up to the Chinese in America in numbers, too, 3.4 million versus 4.0 million. Filipinos also catching up somewhat economically, too.

    Filipinos don’t get the discussion and attention they should compared to other Asian groups. (On current trends, Filipinos will fairly soon be the largest racial group in the state of Hawaii and in the territory of Guam. Already Hawaii has more people identifying only as Filipino than identifying only as Japanese. Hawaii also has more people identifying as part-Filipino than identifying as part-Japanese. Whites are already a tiny minority in Guam and a shrinking majority in Hawaii.)”

    The majority of Asians who live in Nevada are Filipinos.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Good point. My wife has Pinoy (Filipino) friends in Las Vegas (who work in casino / hotel) and in the neighboring city of Henderson (work in hospital, as there is much very good healthcare available for the large, growing number of people retiring to Henderson, such as my parents).
  37. @Joe Q.

    These friends will talk about being the only Jew in the room the way that whites will talk about walking into black neighborhoods.
     
    I've heard a lot of "only Jew in the room" type comments but it's an ethnic diversity observation more often than not (i.e., "everyone in this room is a European-American [nominal] Christian except me"). I personally have never heard it used to express a feeling of being threatened.

    I can see how it could be a neutral observance, but according to my in-laws, this was definitely not how it was meant and they found it strange. But her family live in Baltimore, in a rich white neighborhood, and as I said, it occurred to me that maybe it was code for fear of di shvartsen. Fear of white gentiles is just not rational in this day and age, but it’s no doubt more socially acceptable to say that non-Jews make you nervous, where naive listeners would assume you meant whites, than to say outright that blacks make you nervous.

    But then again, my in-laws say they’ve met fellow Jews were not at all dissembling about their fear and contempt for blacks.

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  38. @Jefferson
    "Filipinos are catching up to the Chinese in America in numbers, too, 3.4 million versus 4.0 million. Filipinos also catching up somewhat economically, too.

    Filipinos don’t get the discussion and attention they should compared to other Asian groups. (On current trends, Filipinos will fairly soon be the largest racial group in the state of Hawaii and in the territory of Guam. Already Hawaii has more people identifying only as Filipino than identifying only as Japanese. Hawaii also has more people identifying as part-Filipino than identifying as part-Japanese. Whites are already a tiny minority in Guam and a shrinking majority in Hawaii.)"

    The majority of Asians who live in Nevada are Filipinos.

    Good point. My wife has Pinoy (Filipino) friends in Las Vegas (who work in casino / hotel) and in the neighboring city of Henderson (work in hospital, as there is much very good healthcare available for the large, growing number of people retiring to Henderson, such as my parents).

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  39. In fact, on the contrary. Young people today are by most measures less promiscuous than past post-WW2 generations, in particular, Baby Boomers.

    Thank you, that meme is so tired. In terms of drug usage too, today’s youth are relatively tame. Back to the main topic, I can’t really take the “Asian” category seriously, at the minimum divide into Subcontinentals and the Sinosphere. Yeah I know sectarian divisions among former persist in diaspora.

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  40. “There’s a myth in some scholarly and political quarters that the model minority idea is a myth, founded mostly on assertion (e.g., just stating that it’s a false myth) and slicing and dicing the statistics to emphasize ways in which Asian Americans are disadvantaged in relation to non-Hispanic whites. ”

    I’m not sure that it is. Or rather, I’m not sure that the claim that it is a “myth” is any less meaningless than the narrative it is responding to, for a few reasons.

    What is the empirical evidence for the narrative?

    One of the implicit reasons the “myth” claim is made, it appears to me, is to emphasize that Asian Americans are a sort of residual category without necessarily having the shared experiences of White and Black people (though maybe they do because of American social race norms?). It seems absurd to me to lump together the children of educated professionals from an aristocratic background in middle class suburbs with the children of refugees without college degrees in working class suburbs without looking at whether there is some kind of shared experience that they have. It’s not absurd to point out what percentage of the people in the “Asian American” race group fit the first category or the second.

    Also, it’s not clear to me whether or not that tells you anything about the impact of race on those people. I don’t think you can establish whether there is a common “race” component accounting for outcomes for Asian Americans without a really serious empirical look at this issue which I have yet to see. If you don’t control for class, how long the family has been in the U.S., the English proficiency, parents’ educational attainment, parents’ foreign-born status, English proficiency, parents’ income, parent’s childhood class status, etc., is it anything more than a stereotype to say that Asian Americans actually achieving more by a number of different measures of conventional social success like income, SAT scores, IQ, etc. *because they are Asian American*? It’s different from the myth about “hookup culture” because it’s not totally unworthy of asking, because even I can come up with hypothesis about why it *might* be true, but if it’s going to be asked, at least let’s do it seriously.

    So, I’m not saying that the model minority “myth” is wrong – I think the answers it presents are as useful as answers to badly framed questions approached the wrong way can be. I would much rather that we dispensed with this category of “Asian American” and developed a uniform theory of power in society and looked at what factors were actually accounting for economic and social success or failure on those grounds. But having to navigate these enormous areas of pseudoscience and not having the tools to respond to them is what drives people to political responses like cutting data in a different way to undercut the claim.

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    It seems absurd to me to lump together the children of educated professionals from an aristocratic background in middle class suburbs with the children of refugees without college degrees in working class suburbs without looking at whether there is some kind of shared experience that they have. It’s not absurd to point out what percentage of the people in the “Asian American” race group fit the first category or the second.

    substitute WASP & appalachian. same generality holds. and, as a point of fact, poor whites are a greater % of whites than poor asians are a % of asians. so my point is if we are talking about the "model minority myth" we should talk about the "white privilege myth."

    I don’t think you can establish whether there is a common “race” component accounting for outcomes for Asian Americans without a really serious empirical look at this issue which I have yet to see.

    college educated asian american activists have coopted the black american template, to the point of putting forward their own narratives of oppression and physical violence, which do have some basis, but, were never as pervasive, and, were not part of their own family's personal narrative (ie, the vast majority of chinese americans date to post 1965 migrations, and have no personal connection to the pogroms of the late 19th century; this is not the case for black americans).

    If you don’t control for class, how long the family has been in the U.S., the English proficiency, parents’ educational attainment, parents’ foreign-born status, English proficiency, parents’ income, parent’s childhood class status, etc., is it anything more than a stereotype to say that Asian Americans actually achieving more by a number of different measures of conventional social success like income, SAT scores, IQ, etc.

    asian american success is almost certainly a function of the human capital their parents bring which translate into SAT scores etc., and not something essential about asianness. i don't have a problem addressing this particular issues. they don't negate the descriptive fact of their aggregate success.

    I would much rather that we dispensed with this category of “Asian American” and developed a uniform theory of power in society and looked at what factors were actually accounting for economic and social success or failure on those grounds.

    SS, i have been on university campuses of late. have you? just out of curiosity. because i think a uniform theory of power has emerged in the last decade: white privilege explains everything. there are rhetorical nods to class and economic inequality, but ultimately when the rubber hits the rode it is ethnicity and sexuality which trump class. ergo, you have asian, black, latino, etc. children of upper middle class background who assert their weak and subordinate position in society compared to lower middle class whites by dint of their racial identity and lack of white skin privilege. i think it's performative and a way of social signaling, but it's what's going on.

    left liberals often do like to say that we should talk more about class. but they've been saying that for as long as i've been aware of these things. class is always a discussion for tomorrow. what they do talk about is race and sexuality and gender today.
  41. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Pat Gilligan

    If Asians really believed White Americans are a lazy, hedonistic bunch they wouldn’t queue up to immigrate to the country those uncouth savages built.
     
    I sometimes wonder if this escapes East Asian and East Indian immigrants to the U.S? Or even first generation? They exercise discipline and work their asses off because they equate education with material gain and success. Most likely they study STEM. They take engineering classes and math classes and you wonder if it ever strikes them that it is almost entirely a product of white males? Gauss, Fourier, Laplace, Lagrange, ... And they look at the great technological innovations and innovators and again it's almost exclusively white males. I could go on but I think you catch my drift.

    East India and East Asia have a very rich history with incredible civilizations that made lasting contributions of their own. We typically don’t cover these in depth in the West, which may upset them, but then again, I knew some highly educated students from China who’d been taught just as little of Greek and Roman civilization. I’d be very surprised if East Asians and Indians have the same inferiority complex manifesting as OMG Eurocentrism! I’m oppressed by being forced to read about “white men’s” accomplishments! sentiment that you see in some other groups.

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  42. @RadicalCenter
    Both asian-american parents (like my wife) and european-american white parents (like me) RIGHTLY fear the stupidity, ignorance, laziness, authoritarian and collectivist and PC political indoctrination, identity confusion, sexual perversion, disease-spreading promiscuity, anti-white hatred, anti-America hatred, anti-Christian bigotry that our children will be surrounded with in many of "America's" universities and high schools.

    Do you have children? If you do, it's odd that you wouldn't share most of the concerns of good Asian and white parents on this score.

    Any parent who is paying attention and is not painfully naïve should be seriously considering what sacrifices they can make in order to afford home-schooling, sending their children to a private school, and/or moving to a different region, instead of consigning their posterity to the indoctrination/hook-up centers known as "public" schools.

    And what do you mean by saying that Asian kids don't have much to gain from schooling by their nature? Is that what you're saying?

    I agree with as to the evils of modern education.
    And I meant that Asians don’t have much to gain from the educational system because they won’t enjoy the party/frat atmosphere that much, being for the most part introverted low testosterone kids, and because they are good students who’ll be dragged down by other less gifted students.

    Read More
  43. @Pat Gilligan

    If Asians really believed White Americans are a lazy, hedonistic bunch they wouldn’t queue up to immigrate to the country those uncouth savages built.
     
    I sometimes wonder if this escapes East Asian and East Indian immigrants to the U.S? Or even first generation? They exercise discipline and work their asses off because they equate education with material gain and success. Most likely they study STEM. They take engineering classes and math classes and you wonder if it ever strikes them that it is almost entirely a product of white males? Gauss, Fourier, Laplace, Lagrange, ... And they look at the great technological innovations and innovators and again it's almost exclusively white males. I could go on but I think you catch my drift.

    They don’t need to learn about the history of science and technology. They just need to take a good look at the West to realise our culture is worth learning. The Japanese, as always, were the first to realise they needed to catch up with Europe..

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The japanese try to develop humaniforms for company while the americans attempt to make war robots and auto-autos. I wonder what other cultures might have in mind.
  44. And yet it is common among Indian Americans for literal Brahmins to style themselves PoC tribunes of the plebs, oppressed by white America.

    I have noticed this in the Seattle area. Pramila Jayapal, who has leveraged her tireless efforts to promote radical left PC politics into political office in Seattle, is currently going around the state renaming streams and such for not being politically correct. One she wants to change is called Squaw Lake, which isn’t all that offensive, really, unless maybe you want it to be offensive. Another is Coon Creek, which probably has nothing to do with blacks. People call raccoons “coons” all the time. I’m sure she’ll find many more. Maybe she can rename a particular kind of flower locally known as “squaw tit”, but she probably doesn’t know about that one so I should just keep quiet I suppose.

    Anyway, this woman would probably be offended if I called the city Bombay instead of Mumbai, and yet here she is tampering with our local history and culture. She must both hate and have contempt for whites, and yet she immigrated here and got to do whatever she wanted! What is this woman’s problem? Wouldn’t she call it imperialism if whites went around acting this way in her native India?

    Seriously, more Americans are noticing this stuff, and ill-will toward Asians will increase if it goes on like this. Maybe a lot of Asians think white Americans are a weak, cowed people incapable of anything consequential, so they’re fair game for attack. That’s the impression I get, at least. Wouldn’t be the first time some Asians made that mistake.

    Anyway, my best friend is half Asian and half Jew, and he’s married to an ordinary white girl and largely agrees with me on how ridiculous this stuff is. I tend to think if Asians are married to whites they probably aren’t racist against whites, so maybe the best solution for now is to shut off immigration from Asia and let the Asians already here assimilate by marriage. People like Pramila Jayapal and Kshama Sawant – not to mention the psycho Muslims that shot up San Bernardino – are pretty good arguments for restricting Asian immigration for the time being.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    jayapal is married to a white guy. my personal experience is this behavior is more common among 'assimilated' people.
    , @Megalophias
    [snip]Indian lady acting white as fuck[/snip]

    You think failing to assimilate is the problem here?

  45. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @BB753
    They don't need to learn about the history of science and technology. They just need to take a good look at the West to realise our culture is worth learning. The Japanese, as always, were the first to realise they needed to catch up with Europe..

    The japanese try to develop humaniforms for company while the americans attempt to make war robots and auto-autos. I wonder what other cultures might have in mind.

    Read More
  46. @Bill P

    And yet it is common among Indian Americans for literal Brahmins to style themselves PoC tribunes of the plebs, oppressed by white America.
     
    I have noticed this in the Seattle area. Pramila Jayapal, who has leveraged her tireless efforts to promote radical left PC politics into political office in Seattle, is currently going around the state renaming streams and such for not being politically correct. One she wants to change is called Squaw Lake, which isn't all that offensive, really, unless maybe you want it to be offensive. Another is Coon Creek, which probably has nothing to do with blacks. People call raccoons "coons" all the time. I'm sure she'll find many more. Maybe she can rename a particular kind of flower locally known as "squaw tit", but she probably doesn't know about that one so I should just keep quiet I suppose.

    Anyway, this woman would probably be offended if I called the city Bombay instead of Mumbai, and yet here she is tampering with our local history and culture. She must both hate and have contempt for whites, and yet she immigrated here and got to do whatever she wanted! What is this woman's problem? Wouldn't she call it imperialism if whites went around acting this way in her native India?

    Seriously, more Americans are noticing this stuff, and ill-will toward Asians will increase if it goes on like this. Maybe a lot of Asians think white Americans are a weak, cowed people incapable of anything consequential, so they're fair game for attack. That's the impression I get, at least. Wouldn't be the first time some Asians made that mistake.

    Anyway, my best friend is half Asian and half Jew, and he's married to an ordinary white girl and largely agrees with me on how ridiculous this stuff is. I tend to think if Asians are married to whites they probably aren't racist against whites, so maybe the best solution for now is to shut off immigration from Asia and let the Asians already here assimilate by marriage. People like Pramila Jayapal and Kshama Sawant - not to mention the psycho Muslims that shot up San Bernardino - are pretty good arguments for restricting Asian immigration for the time being.

    jayapal is married to a white guy. my personal experience is this behavior is more common among ‘assimilated’ people.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bill P

    jayapal is married to a white guy. my personal experience is this behavior is more common among ‘assimilated’ people.
     
    Things must have changed a lot since I was kid. If that's the case, it's pretty sad, especially for their children. I grew up with people with both South and East Asian parents who married whites and we never saw them as foreign. Maybe a tad exotic, but that never hurt their romantic/popularity prospects (if anything it enhanced them).

    Speaking as an American, the idea of living in a caste society really kind of sucks. But if contemporary Asian immigrants are intent on having it like it was where they came from, then I suppose they'll get what they want. And unfortunately when the time comes that it doesn't work out so well for them anymore, blaming whites isn't going to do them any good.

    In any event, there's no reason to ruin a good thing that's been going on the US for a longer time than people like to admit. Those who come here with a willingness to take on an American identity should continue to have that option open to them. If that isn't good enough for some, that's their business, but damned if I'm going to let them profit from struggling against us without fighting back.
    , @Rifleman

    jayapal is married to a white guy. my personal experience is this behavior is more common among ‘assimilated’ people.
     
    Wow, that liberal dude really took one for the team didn't he.

    Bill deBlasio, Jeb Bush are a couple of others with quality control issues when it comes to the ladies. No wonder so many of these guys have visceral hatred for Donald Trump.

    We may live in a world were Priayanka Chopra can get on US TV
     
    And rightfully so. Too damn many ugly people on TV as it is.
  47. @Razib Khan
    one reader thinks this post is an anti-white diatribe. lol.

    I did not read it that way. I am sure most Asians are smart enough to know that the fields they excel in are almost wholly European in origin. The last major invention or discovery that was non-European was the compass.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    read what what way? i have no idea what you think i read what way.
    , @Tobus
    I am sure most Asians are smart enough to know that the fields they excel in are almost wholly European in origin

    Not many people know that during the Dark Ages in Europe, it was Arab and Indian thinkers that continued the original Greek/Roman investigations that have led to today's science. For example the "Scientific Method" seems to have been a primarily Arab invention, and our number system, with that all important "0", was developed in India.

    I think it's reasonable to propose that the Enlightentment in Europe wouldn't have happened (or at least no where near as quickly!) if it wasn't building on non-European developments during the Dark Ages.
  48. >Some conservative Christian Asian Americans can identify with Republicans because of their religious ties, but socially conservative Indian Americans, to give one example, naturally have a difficult time identifying with a party which wears evangelical Protestantism on its sleeve as modern Republicans often do.

    But cf. http://www.pewforum.org/2012/07/19/asian-americans-a-mosaic-of-faiths-overview/

    42% of Asian-Americans are Christian. Asian-Americans are much more fervent about their Christianity than whites: e.g. 72% of evangelical AA’s say their religion is “the one true faith” vs. only 49% of evangelical whites. (This leads me to think that secular AA’s are more like to say “unaffiliated” than whites of similar religious indifference.) 40% of US-born AA’s have switched religions, vs. national average of 28%, and the net effects of this movement are shared between Protestant and Unaffiliated.

    What you’re saying would be more valid in post entitled “not your Indian-American political sidekick.” Your experience with Indian-Americans is biasing your perception. Indian-Americans have the lowest % protestant (11%), the lowest % conversions (16%), and the lowest % intermarriage (6% for Hindus) of all Asian-American groups.

    Regardless of what the explanation is and whether the percentage of Protestant Indian-Americans will rise over time, I don’t think Protestant identity politics play poorly with Asian-Americans collectively.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    about their Christianity than whites: e.g. 72% of evangelical AA’s say their religion is “the one true faith” vs. only 49% of evangelical whites.

    dumbfuck, the % of asian american christians was much higher in the 1990s. see CUNY kosmin et al. the last generation has seen a massive rise in asian american non-christianity for two reasons

    1) immigration of non-christians
    2) the secularization of american society as a whole, which has impacted all sectors

    when sam huntington wrote *who are we* he anticipated that asian americans would be more christians than white american soon because he saw the 1990s statistics. and as per kosmin et al.'s more recent work young asian americans in particular are more secular than older ones. true, there are very fervent evangelical protestant asian americans, especially in the korean community, to the point where they are dominant in elite university evangelical associations. but they are salient, not representative.

    Indian-Americans have the lowest % protestant (11%), the lowest % conversions (16%), and the lowest % intermarriage (6% for Hindus) of all Asian-American groups.

    give a stupid person statistics, and they lack total context. indian americans are overwhelmingly immigrants. that is, they are mostly NOT 1.5 or 2nd generation, but people born and raised in india. that's why they don't convert, they don't intermarry, etc. they never had much of an opportunity.

    also dumbshit, i don't have much experience with indian americans. my closest friends are white or east asian. i didn't encounter south asians until adulthood, and i guess none of my closest friends are indian american now that i think about it.

    some of you commenters have two problems

    1) you're stupider than you think you are
    2) you make inferences about me which are wrong, but you are stupid and think you can infer about my life. i don't forgt this sort of behavior ever (here's looking you aeolius, you're on thin ice, don't ever try to psychoanalyze me again or you'll never comment here again).

    that kind of pisses me off at the end of the day. after a long day of work and then chilling with my friends i have to see this bullshit in the moderation queue?

    and yeah, don't bother posting a follow up dumbass. it's not going through moderation queue.

    what. the. fuck.

  49. @Razib Khan
    jayapal is married to a white guy. my personal experience is this behavior is more common among 'assimilated' people.

    jayapal is married to a white guy. my personal experience is this behavior is more common among ‘assimilated’ people.

    Things must have changed a lot since I was kid. If that’s the case, it’s pretty sad, especially for their children. I grew up with people with both South and East Asian parents who married whites and we never saw them as foreign. Maybe a tad exotic, but that never hurt their romantic/popularity prospects (if anything it enhanced them).

    Speaking as an American, the idea of living in a caste society really kind of sucks. But if contemporary Asian immigrants are intent on having it like it was where they came from, then I suppose they’ll get what they want. And unfortunately when the time comes that it doesn’t work out so well for them anymore, blaming whites isn’t going to do them any good.

    In any event, there’s no reason to ruin a good thing that’s been going on the US for a longer time than people like to admit. Those who come here with a willingness to take on an American identity should continue to have that option open to them. If that isn’t good enough for some, that’s their business, but damned if I’m going to let them profit from struggling against us without fighting back.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    But if contemporary Asian immigrants are intent on having it like it was where they came from, then I suppose they’ll get what they want

    east asia is not a caste society. they're merit societies. just as a point of fact.
    , @Numinous

    Speaking as an American, the idea of living in a caste society really kind of sucks. But if contemporary Asian immigrants are intent on having it like it was where they came from, then I suppose they’ll get what they want.
     
    I must be missing something. You were complaining about this Jayapal lady going around trying to rename places and rivers based on perceives offensiveness (I share your discomfort with that, btw.) That sounds to me like straight-up uber-Marxist SJW behavior, and as other commenters have pointed out, is probably an indication that she has fully assimilated into her milieu. What that has to do with the Indian caste system I don't know.

    I know this is neither here nor there, but as an aside, I (and almost all people I know who are at least as old as me; I'm 37) refer to the city as Bombay, so few will be offended if you use that name.
  50. “We could point at how white Americans compare to Asian Americans in violence, in education, in income. We could call your kids thugs.”

    Than don’t immigrate in mass to our majority White thug countries. Stay in your prosperous crime free Asian countries where thugs do not exist.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    Than don’t immigrate in mass to our majority White thug countries. Stay in your prosperous crime free Asian countries where thugs do not exist.

    fwiw, that's been my response to my parents. america isn't perfect. but if not, then perfect it. it's great enough as it is to be a magnet to the world.

  51. My theory is that this has nothing to do with race pee se. It’s just that immigrants often take a *relative* dive in the socioeconomic scale when they immigrate so they’re keenly aware that their kids need to measure up to a different strata of people, not their immediate neighbors. This may not seem obvious since, in absolute terms, they’re of course much better off than in their home countries.

    Now, since the surrounding society happens to be white, it may be expressed in racial terms but they’re only really talking about a particular strata of whites. Whites who find themselves in similar circumstances would probably behave similarly.

    I bring this up because some posters seem to be reaching for exotic explanations involving a desire to recreate caste hierarchy. I think the recently-dispossessed explanation is a lot more universal.

    Read More
  52. @Bill P

    And yet it is common among Indian Americans for literal Brahmins to style themselves PoC tribunes of the plebs, oppressed by white America.
     
    I have noticed this in the Seattle area. Pramila Jayapal, who has leveraged her tireless efforts to promote radical left PC politics into political office in Seattle, is currently going around the state renaming streams and such for not being politically correct. One she wants to change is called Squaw Lake, which isn't all that offensive, really, unless maybe you want it to be offensive. Another is Coon Creek, which probably has nothing to do with blacks. People call raccoons "coons" all the time. I'm sure she'll find many more. Maybe she can rename a particular kind of flower locally known as "squaw tit", but she probably doesn't know about that one so I should just keep quiet I suppose.

    Anyway, this woman would probably be offended if I called the city Bombay instead of Mumbai, and yet here she is tampering with our local history and culture. She must both hate and have contempt for whites, and yet she immigrated here and got to do whatever she wanted! What is this woman's problem? Wouldn't she call it imperialism if whites went around acting this way in her native India?

    Seriously, more Americans are noticing this stuff, and ill-will toward Asians will increase if it goes on like this. Maybe a lot of Asians think white Americans are a weak, cowed people incapable of anything consequential, so they're fair game for attack. That's the impression I get, at least. Wouldn't be the first time some Asians made that mistake.

    Anyway, my best friend is half Asian and half Jew, and he's married to an ordinary white girl and largely agrees with me on how ridiculous this stuff is. I tend to think if Asians are married to whites they probably aren't racist against whites, so maybe the best solution for now is to shut off immigration from Asia and let the Asians already here assimilate by marriage. People like Pramila Jayapal and Kshama Sawant - not to mention the psycho Muslims that shot up San Bernardino - are pretty good arguments for restricting Asian immigration for the time being.

    [snip]Indian lady acting white as fuck[/snip]

    You think failing to assimilate is the problem here?

    Read More
  53. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    @ Bill P
    Indian Americans have got their SJW spirit by assimilation. They are spewing it back in India for past 60 yrs. The right wing hindu politics in India is a backlash to this. Hence recently Noam chomsky & other celebrity SJW have intervened to petition VC of JNU university in India on an issue of allowing police to arrest new sjw celebrities kanhaiya & gang for simple stuff like sedition within campus.

    Read More
  54. @quamuri
    >Some conservative Christian Asian Americans can identify with Republicans because of their religious ties, but socially conservative Indian Americans, to give one example, naturally have a difficult time identifying with a party which wears evangelical Protestantism on its sleeve as modern Republicans often do.

    But cf. http://www.pewforum.org/2012/07/19/asian-americans-a-mosaic-of-faiths-overview/

    42% of Asian-Americans are Christian. Asian-Americans are much more fervent about their Christianity than whites: e.g. 72% of evangelical AA's say their religion is "the one true faith" vs. only 49% of evangelical whites. (This leads me to think that secular AA's are more like to say "unaffiliated" than whites of similar religious indifference.) 40% of US-born AA's have switched religions, vs. national average of 28%, and the net effects of this movement are shared between Protestant and Unaffiliated.

    What you're saying would be more valid in post entitled "not your Indian-American political sidekick." Your experience with Indian-Americans is biasing your perception. Indian-Americans have the lowest % protestant (11%), the lowest % conversions (16%), and the lowest % intermarriage (6% for Hindus) of all Asian-American groups.

    Regardless of what the explanation is and whether the percentage of Protestant Indian-Americans will rise over time, I don't think Protestant identity politics play poorly with Asian-Americans collectively.

    about their Christianity than whites: e.g. 72% of evangelical AA’s say their religion is “the one true faith” vs. only 49% of evangelical whites.

    dumbfuck, the % of asian american christians was much higher in the 1990s. see CUNY kosmin et al. the last generation has seen a massive rise in asian american non-christianity for two reasons

    1) immigration of non-christians
    2) the secularization of american society as a whole, which has impacted all sectors

    when sam huntington wrote *who are we* he anticipated that asian americans would be more christians than white american soon because he saw the 1990s statistics. and as per kosmin et al.’s more recent work young asian americans in particular are more secular than older ones. true, there are very fervent evangelical protestant asian americans, especially in the korean community, to the point where they are dominant in elite university evangelical associations. but they are salient, not representative.

    Indian-Americans have the lowest % protestant (11%), the lowest % conversions (16%), and the lowest % intermarriage (6% for Hindus) of all Asian-American groups.

    give a stupid person statistics, and they lack total context. indian americans are overwhelmingly immigrants. that is, they are mostly NOT 1.5 or 2nd generation, but people born and raised in india. that’s why they don’t convert, they don’t intermarry, etc. they never had much of an opportunity.

    also dumbshit, i don’t have much experience with indian americans. my closest friends are white or east asian. i didn’t encounter south asians until adulthood, and i guess none of my closest friends are indian american now that i think about it.

    some of you commenters have two problems

    1) you’re stupider than you think you are
    2) you make inferences about me which are wrong, but you are stupid and think you can infer about my life. i don’t forgt this sort of behavior ever (here’s looking you aeolius, you’re on thin ice, don’t ever try to psychoanalyze me again or you’ll never comment here again).

    that kind of pisses me off at the end of the day. after a long day of work and then chilling with my friends i have to see this bullshit in the moderation queue?

    and yeah, don’t bother posting a follow up dumbass. it’s not going through moderation queue.

    what. the. fuck.

    Read More
  55. @Jefferson
    "We could point at how white Americans compare to Asian Americans in violence, in education, in income. We could call your kids thugs."

    Than don't immigrate in mass to our majority White thug countries. Stay in your prosperous crime free Asian countries where thugs do not exist.

    Than don’t immigrate in mass to our majority White thug countries. Stay in your prosperous crime free Asian countries where thugs do not exist.

    fwiw, that’s been my response to my parents. america isn’t perfect. but if not, then perfect it. it’s great enough as it is to be a magnet to the world.

    Read More
  56. @Bill P

    jayapal is married to a white guy. my personal experience is this behavior is more common among ‘assimilated’ people.
     
    Things must have changed a lot since I was kid. If that's the case, it's pretty sad, especially for their children. I grew up with people with both South and East Asian parents who married whites and we never saw them as foreign. Maybe a tad exotic, but that never hurt their romantic/popularity prospects (if anything it enhanced them).

    Speaking as an American, the idea of living in a caste society really kind of sucks. But if contemporary Asian immigrants are intent on having it like it was where they came from, then I suppose they'll get what they want. And unfortunately when the time comes that it doesn't work out so well for them anymore, blaming whites isn't going to do them any good.

    In any event, there's no reason to ruin a good thing that's been going on the US for a longer time than people like to admit. Those who come here with a willingness to take on an American identity should continue to have that option open to them. If that isn't good enough for some, that's their business, but damned if I'm going to let them profit from struggling against us without fighting back.

    But if contemporary Asian immigrants are intent on having it like it was where they came from, then I suppose they’ll get what they want

    east asia is not a caste society. they’re merit societies. just as a point of fact.

    Read More
  57. @APaige
    I did not read it that way. I am sure most Asians are smart enough to know that the fields they excel in are almost wholly European in origin. The last major invention or discovery that was non-European was the compass.

    read what what way? i have no idea what you think i read what way.

    Read More
    • Replies: @APaige
    It was a reply to the "one reader thinks this post is an anti-white diatribe. lol." I am still dumbfounded that Asians could possibly look at Whites the way Whites look at Blacks. Whites have created the ideas and institutions that gave birth to modernity. Whites should look at Asians as competent clones who commit less crimes. The author of the Tiger mom book believes that Chinese mothers are superior because her half-Western off-spring, living in a Western nation, learning Western music on Western instruments, and excelling at learning Western ideas (Chemistry, Biology, Computers, Calculus, etc., etc.) in order to get accepted into a great Western University. Truly, the unfounded arrogance of Asians is as laughable as the high self-esteem of Black students.
  58. @ss2000
    "There’s a myth in some scholarly and political quarters that the model minority idea is a myth, founded mostly on assertion (e.g., just stating that it’s a false myth) and slicing and dicing the statistics to emphasize ways in which Asian Americans are disadvantaged in relation to non-Hispanic whites. "

    I'm not sure that it is. Or rather, I'm not sure that the claim that it is a "myth" is any less meaningless than the narrative it is responding to, for a few reasons.

    What is the empirical evidence for the narrative?

    One of the implicit reasons the "myth" claim is made, it appears to me, is to emphasize that Asian Americans are a sort of residual category without necessarily having the shared experiences of White and Black people (though maybe they do because of American social race norms?). It seems absurd to me to lump together the children of educated professionals from an aristocratic background in middle class suburbs with the children of refugees without college degrees in working class suburbs without looking at whether there is some kind of shared experience that they have. It's not absurd to point out what percentage of the people in the "Asian American" race group fit the first category or the second.

    Also, it's not clear to me whether or not that tells you anything about the impact of race on those people. I don't think you can establish whether there is a common "race" component accounting for outcomes for Asian Americans without a really serious empirical look at this issue which I have yet to see. If you don't control for class, how long the family has been in the U.S., the English proficiency, parents' educational attainment, parents' foreign-born status, English proficiency, parents' income, parent's childhood class status, etc., is it anything more than a stereotype to say that Asian Americans actually achieving more by a number of different measures of conventional social success like income, SAT scores, IQ, etc. *because they are Asian American*? It's different from the myth about "hookup culture" because it's not totally unworthy of asking, because even I can come up with hypothesis about why it *might* be true, but if it's going to be asked, at least let's do it seriously.

    So, I'm not saying that the model minority "myth" is wrong - I think the answers it presents are as useful as answers to badly framed questions approached the wrong way can be. I would much rather that we dispensed with this category of "Asian American" and developed a uniform theory of power in society and looked at what factors were actually accounting for economic and social success or failure on those grounds. But having to navigate these enormous areas of pseudoscience and not having the tools to respond to them is what drives people to political responses like cutting data in a different way to undercut the claim.

    It seems absurd to me to lump together the children of educated professionals from an aristocratic background in middle class suburbs with the children of refugees without college degrees in working class suburbs without looking at whether there is some kind of shared experience that they have. It’s not absurd to point out what percentage of the people in the “Asian American” race group fit the first category or the second.

    substitute WASP & appalachian. same generality holds. and, as a point of fact, poor whites are a greater % of whites than poor asians are a % of asians. so my point is if we are talking about the “model minority myth” we should talk about the “white privilege myth.”

    I don’t think you can establish whether there is a common “race” component accounting for outcomes for Asian Americans without a really serious empirical look at this issue which I have yet to see.

    college educated asian american activists have coopted the black american template, to the point of putting forward their own narratives of oppression and physical violence, which do have some basis, but, were never as pervasive, and, were not part of their own family’s personal narrative (ie, the vast majority of chinese americans date to post 1965 migrations, and have no personal connection to the pogroms of the late 19th century; this is not the case for black americans).

    If you don’t control for class, how long the family has been in the U.S., the English proficiency, parents’ educational attainment, parents’ foreign-born status, English proficiency, parents’ income, parent’s childhood class status, etc., is it anything more than a stereotype to say that Asian Americans actually achieving more by a number of different measures of conventional social success like income, SAT scores, IQ, etc.

    asian american success is almost certainly a function of the human capital their parents bring which translate into SAT scores etc., and not something essential about asianness. i don’t have a problem addressing this particular issues. they don’t negate the descriptive fact of their aggregate success.

    I would much rather that we dispensed with this category of “Asian American” and developed a uniform theory of power in society and looked at what factors were actually accounting for economic and social success or failure on those grounds.

    SS, i have been on university campuses of late. have you? just out of curiosity. because i think a uniform theory of power has emerged in the last decade: white privilege explains everything. there are rhetorical nods to class and economic inequality, but ultimately when the rubber hits the rode it is ethnicity and sexuality which trump class. ergo, you have asian, black, latino, etc. children of upper middle class background who assert their weak and subordinate position in society compared to lower middle class whites by dint of their racial identity and lack of white skin privilege. i think it’s performative and a way of social signaling, but it’s what’s going on.

    left liberals often do like to say that we should talk more about class. but they’ve been saying that for as long as i’ve been aware of these things. class is always a discussion for tomorrow. what they do talk about is race and sexuality and gender today.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "left liberals often do like to say that we should talk more about class. but they’ve been saying that for as long as i’ve been aware of these things. class is always a discussion for tomorrow. what they do talk about is race and sexuality and gender today."

    I have seen many pro-Hillary liberals on the internet criticize Bernie Sanders for talking too much about class and not enough about race.

    Old school liberalism does not mesh well with new school liberal identity politics.

  59. @ryanch
    I'm somewhat surprised to see you think of Asian American as a coherent cultural category.

    I believe that I've typically read Asian Americans, at least those in generations beyond the immigrants themselves, as just a subset of upper middle class white Americans. Perhaps I'm not showing much introspection, but I feel that I have few preconceptions that wouldn't equally apply to others with more or less the same accent. Maybe that's part of the problem - not recognizing the degree of difference and the boundedness of the category. Or, simply not recognizing that Asian Americans bring certainty uncertainties to their interactions with white Americans.

    What is it that makes Indian Americans and Chinese Americans part of the same demographic? Is it mostly their treatment by white Americans? The fact that immigrants from those places tend to come from similar class backgrounds in their native countries? Or something else? The epigenetics passed down from ancestors who breathed oxygen that drifted on downdrafts from the Himalayas.

    And, I'd be curious what percent of white Americans under 50 don't have friends who are non-white. I'd bet it's drastically lower. While black-white is a huge problematic divide, Hispanic and Asian immigrants mostly came to the country after 55 year olds had already developed the bulk of their friendship circles.

    I’m somewhat surprised to see you think of Asian American as a coherent cultural category.

    i didn’t say that.

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  60. Thinking about the post that prompted the OP, one other reason that it doesn’t ring true to me (besides Asian-White differences being more in character and magnitude more White-Native American than White-Black) is that the relative changes don’t tell the story of absolute differences.

    Black Americans have something like 5% of males incarcerated, while for Whites, something like less than 0.7%, for Asians Americans, probably something like 0.2-0.4%. While you can smooth over the multiples in difference between the Black-White gap and White-Asian gap, you can’t really smooth over the fact that the absolute probability o meeting a criminal Black American male, is quite different to the absolute probability of meeting a White American male.

    For a similar thing, you suddenly had a huge population boom of say gypsies in the US, and (being stereotypical, it may not be this high) say they had a male incarceration rate of something like 20%, would it be valid for folk to argue that this gulf in absolute risk should be ignored and not applied to life because, well, the relative risk compared to Blacks is only the same as Black:White? Absolute rates do matter. It’s not all a relative “rat race” of positioning and ranking and “merit”.

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  61. And, a genuine multiculturalism rooted in fact, rather than vacuous critical theory, would dig deep into the richness of human history

    But all true multiculturalism starts with multi -LINGUALISM. Most of the PC freaks avoid that with the exception of Spanish which is more like English than what, 99% of the world’s languages?

    ….rather than outlining broad sketches where white privilege reigns supreme from Sumer to America.

    Or from the Island of Patmos 4000bc to the entire world today.

    As it is, often liberal multiculturalism is simply an inversion of white supremacist theory.

    And the precursor to that is the Wallace Fard/Elijah Poole “Yakub theory” of the Nation of Island which gets right to the point.

    The problem also is that crude categories like “Asian” are not multicultural. It is not a political or intellectual construct from any culture in so called Asia. It is a “White”, “Western” concept crudely applied first to part of the Eastern Mediterranean then to the massive area farther to the east with older “Asia” being reduced to Asia Minor which is now Turkey but only because of Seljuk and Ottoman Turkish imperialism, colonialism, racism, hegemony and domination coming westward from “Asia” before Columbus.

    But the PC crowd is not interested in historical analysis, they want a simple morality play. It’s like changing American Indian to the even more inaccurate Native American. The terminology and crude category does not come from any “Culture” or peoples in the North American landmass prior to the presence of European “invaders”.

    Multiculturalism in that context means leaning the LANGUAGE and culture of some of these actual PRE American people. And who the hell wants to do that when you can just feel smug calling them Native Americans and acting like they just walked out of a Disney cartoon.

    Here’s a collection of videos from a “Whiteness history” series at a low rent college in Portlandia.

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9iomIA_ZXN9kdecGgTz8FGyV6Az6SKi8

    https://www.youtube.com/user/LaughingAtLiberals/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=15

    These people aren’t the endearing weirdos from the television series!

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  62. @Jefferson
    "For example, there is often a focus on the diversity among Asian Americans, ranging from affluent Indian Americans, to groups with more conventional socioeconomic profiles like Filipinos, and finally, those which are somewhat disadvantaged such the Hmong. This is to show that Asian Americans are not a model minority…some of them are struggling. But the logic is not applied to whites! Those who purport to debunk the myth of the model minority would not accede to debunking the idea of white privilege by pointing to the state of Appalachia, and rural white America more generally. Group averages for we, but not thee?"

    Social Justice Warriors sees the White race as being monolithic and zero percent diverse. So all White people to them are privileged, including the Scots-Irish even though they make up the majority of the White underclass in this country and they tend to have a shorter life expectancy on average than Non Scots-Irish Whites.

    The Scots-Irish are the Hmong of the White race.

    You could also say the Hmong are the Scots-Irish of East Asia. Like the Scots, they were warlike hill people who were often at odds with the central government.

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  63. @Razib Khan
    jayapal is married to a white guy. my personal experience is this behavior is more common among 'assimilated' people.

    jayapal is married to a white guy. my personal experience is this behavior is more common among ‘assimilated’ people.

    Wow, that liberal dude really took one for the team didn’t he.

    Bill deBlasio, Jeb Bush are a couple of others with quality control issues when it comes to the ladies. No wonder so many of these guys have visceral hatred for Donald Trump.

    We may live in a world were Priayanka Chopra can get on US TV

    And rightfully so. Too damn many ugly people on TV as it is.

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  64. @Razib Khan
    It seems absurd to me to lump together the children of educated professionals from an aristocratic background in middle class suburbs with the children of refugees without college degrees in working class suburbs without looking at whether there is some kind of shared experience that they have. It’s not absurd to point out what percentage of the people in the “Asian American” race group fit the first category or the second.

    substitute WASP & appalachian. same generality holds. and, as a point of fact, poor whites are a greater % of whites than poor asians are a % of asians. so my point is if we are talking about the "model minority myth" we should talk about the "white privilege myth."

    I don’t think you can establish whether there is a common “race” component accounting for outcomes for Asian Americans without a really serious empirical look at this issue which I have yet to see.

    college educated asian american activists have coopted the black american template, to the point of putting forward their own narratives of oppression and physical violence, which do have some basis, but, were never as pervasive, and, were not part of their own family's personal narrative (ie, the vast majority of chinese americans date to post 1965 migrations, and have no personal connection to the pogroms of the late 19th century; this is not the case for black americans).

    If you don’t control for class, how long the family has been in the U.S., the English proficiency, parents’ educational attainment, parents’ foreign-born status, English proficiency, parents’ income, parent’s childhood class status, etc., is it anything more than a stereotype to say that Asian Americans actually achieving more by a number of different measures of conventional social success like income, SAT scores, IQ, etc.

    asian american success is almost certainly a function of the human capital their parents bring which translate into SAT scores etc., and not something essential about asianness. i don't have a problem addressing this particular issues. they don't negate the descriptive fact of their aggregate success.

    I would much rather that we dispensed with this category of “Asian American” and developed a uniform theory of power in society and looked at what factors were actually accounting for economic and social success or failure on those grounds.

    SS, i have been on university campuses of late. have you? just out of curiosity. because i think a uniform theory of power has emerged in the last decade: white privilege explains everything. there are rhetorical nods to class and economic inequality, but ultimately when the rubber hits the rode it is ethnicity and sexuality which trump class. ergo, you have asian, black, latino, etc. children of upper middle class background who assert their weak and subordinate position in society compared to lower middle class whites by dint of their racial identity and lack of white skin privilege. i think it's performative and a way of social signaling, but it's what's going on.

    left liberals often do like to say that we should talk more about class. but they've been saying that for as long as i've been aware of these things. class is always a discussion for tomorrow. what they do talk about is race and sexuality and gender today.

    “left liberals often do like to say that we should talk more about class. but they’ve been saying that for as long as i’ve been aware of these things. class is always a discussion for tomorrow. what they do talk about is race and sexuality and gender today.”

    I have seen many pro-Hillary liberals on the internet criticize Bernie Sanders for talking too much about class and not enough about race.

    Old school liberalism does not mesh well with new school liberal identity politics.

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  65. @Bill P

    jayapal is married to a white guy. my personal experience is this behavior is more common among ‘assimilated’ people.
     
    Things must have changed a lot since I was kid. If that's the case, it's pretty sad, especially for their children. I grew up with people with both South and East Asian parents who married whites and we never saw them as foreign. Maybe a tad exotic, but that never hurt their romantic/popularity prospects (if anything it enhanced them).

    Speaking as an American, the idea of living in a caste society really kind of sucks. But if contemporary Asian immigrants are intent on having it like it was where they came from, then I suppose they'll get what they want. And unfortunately when the time comes that it doesn't work out so well for them anymore, blaming whites isn't going to do them any good.

    In any event, there's no reason to ruin a good thing that's been going on the US for a longer time than people like to admit. Those who come here with a willingness to take on an American identity should continue to have that option open to them. If that isn't good enough for some, that's their business, but damned if I'm going to let them profit from struggling against us without fighting back.

    Speaking as an American, the idea of living in a caste society really kind of sucks. But if contemporary Asian immigrants are intent on having it like it was where they came from, then I suppose they’ll get what they want.

    I must be missing something. You were complaining about this Jayapal lady going around trying to rename places and rivers based on perceives offensiveness (I share your discomfort with that, btw.) That sounds to me like straight-up uber-Marxist SJW behavior, and as other commenters have pointed out, is probably an indication that she has fully assimilated into her milieu. What that has to do with the Indian caste system I don’t know.

    I know this is neither here nor there, but as an aside, I (and almost all people I know who are at least as old as me; I’m 37) refer to the city as Bombay, so few will be offended if you use that name.

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    • Replies: @notanon
    yes, there's a well-rewarded economic niche for that kind of behavior - no mystery
  66. @Vovin
    I remember Jon Stewart had Bill O'Reilly on TDS to lecture him about the oppressive institutionalized White privilege America is engulfed in. Bill quickly retorted "So there must be Asian privilege too, right?" Stewart looked visibly flustered, and brushed it aside, asserting that it was a discussion for another time. Unfortunately, Bill obliged and they continued onto other points. I wish he held his feet to the fire. This is why conservatives lose; they never go for the jugular.

    That’s not why they lose. They lose because they work from the same false axioms as the left and the left makes more sense to more people given those false axioms.

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  67. @BB753
    If Asians really believed White Americans are a lazy, hedonistic bunch they wouldn't queue up to immigrate to the country those uncouth savages built.
    The truth is rather that over-protecting Asian mothers are afraid of their precious ones being dragged into the temporary hedonistic atmosphere of highschool and college. Where on the other hand their kids have little to gain due to their very nature.

    If Asians really believed White Americans are a lazy, hedonistic bunch they wouldn’t queue up to immigrate to the country those uncouth savages built.

    Sure they would if they believed it was mostly luck.

    Personally I think there’s a sweetspot on the “more recently barbarian” spectrum which people move past unless they are aware of and consciously try and maintain it.

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  68. @ryanch
    I'm somewhat surprised to see you think of Asian American as a coherent cultural category.

    I believe that I've typically read Asian Americans, at least those in generations beyond the immigrants themselves, as just a subset of upper middle class white Americans. Perhaps I'm not showing much introspection, but I feel that I have few preconceptions that wouldn't equally apply to others with more or less the same accent. Maybe that's part of the problem - not recognizing the degree of difference and the boundedness of the category. Or, simply not recognizing that Asian Americans bring certainty uncertainties to their interactions with white Americans.

    What is it that makes Indian Americans and Chinese Americans part of the same demographic? Is it mostly their treatment by white Americans? The fact that immigrants from those places tend to come from similar class backgrounds in their native countries? Or something else? The epigenetics passed down from ancestors who breathed oxygen that drifted on downdrafts from the Himalayas.

    And, I'd be curious what percent of white Americans under 50 don't have friends who are non-white. I'd bet it's drastically lower. While black-white is a huge problematic divide, Hispanic and Asian immigrants mostly came to the country after 55 year olds had already developed the bulk of their friendship circles.

    What is it that makes Indian Americans and Chinese Americans part of the same demographic?

    Similar positions on the “more recently barbarian” spectrum.

    If you took every ethnic group and gave them a score of say
    - 1 point per century of herding
    - 2 (possibly more) points per century of farming
    since they were hunter-gatherers and then ranked them, the ones with similar scores would be similar in certain traits

    imo.

    Large chunks of China and India would have very high scores.

    North Europeans would have quite a low score – which is both a good thing and a bad thing imo depending on context.

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    • Replies: @BB753
    It depends on which North Europeans. Remember, Britain not only partook of Neolithic farming culture early on, it became a Roman province over two thousand years ago. Even after the Germanic invasion, it held on to a high level of culture. England produced a learned figure of Saxon stock like Bede the Venerable in the VIII century.
    It's ridiculous to say the settlers and pioneers who founded the USA, of mostly British stock, were not far removed in time from barbarism. In fact, the opposite is the truth: they hailed from one of the most civilized and advanced societies at the time, with a very long history.
  69. @APaige
    I did not read it that way. I am sure most Asians are smart enough to know that the fields they excel in are almost wholly European in origin. The last major invention or discovery that was non-European was the compass.

    I am sure most Asians are smart enough to know that the fields they excel in are almost wholly European in origin

    Not many people know that during the Dark Ages in Europe, it was Arab and Indian thinkers that continued the original Greek/Roman investigations that have led to today’s science. For example the “Scientific Method” seems to have been a primarily Arab invention, and our number system, with that all important “0″, was developed in India.

    I think it’s reasonable to propose that the Enlightentment in Europe wouldn’t have happened (or at least no where near as quickly!) if it wasn’t building on non-European developments during the Dark Ages.

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    • Replies: @Harold
    Maybe not many people know that because not many people know much at all, but anybody who does know much at all knows that.

    The ‘scientific method’ may have been explicated earlier by non-European thinkers but the spark fell on ground too damp to cause a blaze.

    The world is not moved much by single ideas. Ideas for which the world is not ready are forgotten. Ideas for which the world is ready are often discovered by more than one person nearly simultaneously.
  70. @Numinous

    Speaking as an American, the idea of living in a caste society really kind of sucks. But if contemporary Asian immigrants are intent on having it like it was where they came from, then I suppose they’ll get what they want.
     
    I must be missing something. You were complaining about this Jayapal lady going around trying to rename places and rivers based on perceives offensiveness (I share your discomfort with that, btw.) That sounds to me like straight-up uber-Marxist SJW behavior, and as other commenters have pointed out, is probably an indication that she has fully assimilated into her milieu. What that has to do with the Indian caste system I don't know.

    I know this is neither here nor there, but as an aside, I (and almost all people I know who are at least as old as me; I'm 37) refer to the city as Bombay, so few will be offended if you use that name.

    yes, there’s a well-rewarded economic niche for that kind of behavior – no mystery

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  71. In fact, on the contrary. Young people today are by most measures less promiscuous than past post-WW2 generations, in particular, Baby Boomers.

    How much of this is changing demographics i.e. kids from the same ethnic groups are the same but the percentages have changed?

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  72. @Tobus
    I am sure most Asians are smart enough to know that the fields they excel in are almost wholly European in origin

    Not many people know that during the Dark Ages in Europe, it was Arab and Indian thinkers that continued the original Greek/Roman investigations that have led to today's science. For example the "Scientific Method" seems to have been a primarily Arab invention, and our number system, with that all important "0", was developed in India.

    I think it's reasonable to propose that the Enlightentment in Europe wouldn't have happened (or at least no where near as quickly!) if it wasn't building on non-European developments during the Dark Ages.

    Maybe not many people know that because not many people know much at all, but anybody who does know much at all knows that.

    The ‘scientific method’ may have been explicated earlier by non-European thinkers but the spark fell on ground too damp to cause a blaze.

    The world is not moved much by single ideas. Ideas for which the world is not ready are forgotten. Ideas for which the world is ready are often discovered by more than one person nearly simultaneously.

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    • Replies: @Tobus
    The ‘scientific method’ may have been explicated earlier by non-European thinkers but the spark fell on ground too damp to cause a blaze.

    Oh but it did Harold, and that's my point - even people who know a lot don't know how important the non-European contribution to modern science (and art!) is. The Fibonacci sequence, quadratic equations, ink, binary numbers, cataract surgery, fibre optics, plastic surgery, approximation of pi, sine/cosine... etc. etc.

    Non-European thinkers created a blaze large enough to end the Dark Ages in Europe and continue to keep it burning today... the boson particle for instance is named after Indian physicist Satyendra Bose who helped lay the foundations of quantum physics with Einstein.
  73. Razib:

    You are missing the whole point. The Left is fighting for the good of humanity. The Right stands for the forces of hatred, evil, darkness and oppression.

    In say American junior high, one is typically taught that the most heinous thing you can do is to scapegoat people on the basis of immutable characteristics. However, there is a general exception to this rule, when the scapegoating is performed in the service of social justice.

    When the Left engages in ethnic/racial/religious/class-based scapegoating, and dishonestly manipulates statistics to demonize people on the basis of immutable characteristics, it is about liberating people from oppression. For example, Khieu Samphan did what he did in order to bring “social justice” for his country, so it is ridiculous to hold him accountable for how he made an omelet.

    Also, if you study the rhetoric of the “racist Right” (people like Steve Sailor) and the “social justice warriors”, you will note someone like Steve Sailor actually is mostly empirically sound, and the SJW is characteristically dishonest if you look behind the “interpretation” at the raw data. This is because evil reactionaries have to be more careful because their propaganda will be subjected to rational scrutiny, if not outright slander, but the forces of good are permitted to distort and manipulate and outright lie–and you are a bad person for pointing out the lie.

    It is ultimately not about truth, it is about the will to power, and if your side can appropriate the appearance of virtue, you are accorded the right to lie, scapegoat, and even murder. At least, this is the ordinary trajectory of what is called “political progress”.

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  74. My Mexican mother, who looks only vaguely Hispanic as she ages, nevertheless gets “looks” sometimes when she shops in Orange County malls. She’ll comment on it. Her parents went to de facto segregated “Mexican” schools till they learned English, as did my oldest uncle for a while. But two generations out of Mexico, the whole family is more or less middle class.

    A “theory of power” that talks about their experience with the same critical tone and categories it would talk about a people enslaved for 200 years is absolutely bonkers.

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  75. @BB753
    If Asians really believed White Americans are a lazy, hedonistic bunch they wouldn't queue up to immigrate to the country those uncouth savages built.
    The truth is rather that over-protecting Asian mothers are afraid of their precious ones being dragged into the temporary hedonistic atmosphere of highschool and college. Where on the other hand their kids have little to gain due to their very nature.

    I don’t think Asians believe that White Americans are intrinsically lazy and hedonistic types. I certainly suspect many Asians, as much as they may have hated the British Imperialist, respected the British for their accomplishments. The fact is that European and American civilization has been in a period of decadent decline since WWI, and “expressive individualism” and “egalitarianism” AKA liberalism, is the ideological justification for the decadent decline (at least as James Burnham argued).

    The reality is the White American probably will not be too hard to push aside, in fact most White Americans will probably welcome it. Nor will the Blacks or the Hispanics likely provide much of a competition to the Tiger children. I don’t necessarily get the Asian proclivity to vote for the party of Decadence, but perhaps it is a stepping stone. The danger is, of course, that Asians get infected with the whiny victimology and self-defeating mythology of standard Leftism. It is pretty easy to shift from secularism to decadence.

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  76. @Razib Khan
    in the early 2000s. not much anymore. google me on it.

    Razib, I don’t know what the relevance of MacDonald is to this blogpost (I can think of a few reasons, but wouldn’t have asked it here), but I got interested and found this blog post, and some similar ones, but I didn’t find anything you wrote on the topic. According to that linked blogpost there was a “flood of criticism” from gnxp, to which MacDonald responded (?), but I could find nothing of substance. Could you perhaps help me with keywords or links?

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  77. “But when I hear a white man on TV talk about “where are the dads?” or “why are they so violent?” Fix your shit, my white friends. Fix it.”

    Fix what shit? All White people live perfectly privileged lives. We are all members of affluent blue blood country clubs. Blue bloods aren’t raised by single mothers.

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  78. @Razib Khan
    read what what way? i have no idea what you think i read what way.

    It was a reply to the “one reader thinks this post is an anti-white diatribe. lol.” I am still dumbfounded that Asians could possibly look at Whites the way Whites look at Blacks. Whites have created the ideas and institutions that gave birth to modernity. Whites should look at Asians as competent clones who commit less crimes. The author of the Tiger mom book believes that Chinese mothers are superior because her half-Western off-spring, living in a Western nation, learning Western music on Western instruments, and excelling at learning Western ideas (Chemistry, Biology, Computers, Calculus, etc., etc.) in order to get accepted into a great Western University. Truly, the unfounded arrogance of Asians is as laughable as the high self-esteem of Black students.

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    though let's be clear about one thing. whites as a whole did not invent modernity. modernity was enabled by innovation in the area between london, paris, milan, and berlin, as documented in *human accomplishment* https://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/charles-murray-origins-of-significant-figures-1800-1950.jpg
  79. @APaige
    It was a reply to the "one reader thinks this post is an anti-white diatribe. lol." I am still dumbfounded that Asians could possibly look at Whites the way Whites look at Blacks. Whites have created the ideas and institutions that gave birth to modernity. Whites should look at Asians as competent clones who commit less crimes. The author of the Tiger mom book believes that Chinese mothers are superior because her half-Western off-spring, living in a Western nation, learning Western music on Western instruments, and excelling at learning Western ideas (Chemistry, Biology, Computers, Calculus, etc., etc.) in order to get accepted into a great Western University. Truly, the unfounded arrogance of Asians is as laughable as the high self-esteem of Black students.

    though let’s be clear about one thing. whites as a whole did not invent modernity. modernity was enabled by innovation in the area between london, paris, milan, and berlin, as documented in *human accomplishment* https://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/charles-murray-origins-of-significant-figures-1800-1950.jpg

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    • Replies: @jimmyriddle
    But the key inventions of the Industrial Revolution came from Scotland and the North and Midlands of England.

    I suppose you could argue that modernity had already arrived by then.
    , @APaige
    So modernity was not created by Whites as a whole just a more narrow geographical area of Whites. Just to be clear the ideas, innovations, and institutions that define the modern world did not originate in any area between Tokyo, Beijing, Seoul or Mumbai. It is still funny that people from those areas who have found success by studying Western medicine, science, and technology could find the arrogance to look down on people from London, Paris, Milan or Berlin. Just to be clear. It just seems so irrational for people who are so smart.
  80. I have a lot of non-white friends, co-workers, and neighbors (though I’m personally inclined to think of Middle-Easterners and at least through to Northern India as “white”). My daughters go to schools under 25% white. I’ve heard all sorts of interesting things from people not trying to be politically correct. I’ve heard what East Asian parents think when their kids marry white or even black. I’ve heard what various black groups thin of each other (let’s just say that Carribean blacks are not all that keen to be lumped in with African Americans). I’ve heard what various Hispanic groups think of each other. I’ve heard about divisions among Chinese-Americans (FOB – Fresh Off the Boat vs ABC – American-Born Chinese and between Taiwanese, Hong Kong, and Mainland Chinese).

    I’ve known Indians who married across cultural/caste lines, which creates all sorts of language and tradition issues and listened to a neighbor express her regret that her American-born and raised children can’t really speak to their grandparents or ever really go back to India. They are becoming Americanized, even if they still play cricket instead of baseball.

    Let’s just say that this fantasy that it is white people vs “people of color” or that there is any real solidarity among “people of color”, especially if you remove the great white common enemy from the picture. Some of the worst stereotyping I’ve heard about African Americans has come from immigrant blacks who feel embarrassed to be compared to African Americans to the point of saying they weren’t black.

    It also amuses me that leftists have essentially come back around to calling non-whites “colored people” but just rearranged the words so they could pretentend not to notice and it amazes me that they essentially accept the entire racist view of things with it all being about white and not white, right down to the one-drop rule and lowered expectations.

    The biggest thing that drives people together or apart, in my experience, is culture. Read Keith Richburg’s book Out of America for a great illustration of this (stationed in Africa, Richburg often wound up identifying more with white colleagues than black Africans).

    One last point. I think people may be reading too much into the income figures if they are derived from reported income statistics. That word “reported” is important because people under-report their income to evade taxes. A lot of the high reported income Asian ethnicities largely draw salaries and have taxes withheld so cheating is likely minor. A lot of Korean, Vietnamese, Philipino and other people do a lot of private and small business work that deals in cash, involves family connections, and may include barter, where under-reporting is fairly easy. I know a friend’s Korean immigrant family does this on a large scale and, while that is anecdotal, I doubt they are alone. Under-reporting income likely also depresses Hispanic and black income figures, too, unless they factor underground economy income into those numbers. I recommend looking at where people live for an assessment of their wealth, not the income they report.

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    • Replies: @Jefferson
    "I have a lot of non-white friends, co-workers, and neighbors (though I’m personally inclined to think of Middle-Easterners and at least through to Northern India as “white”)"

    All Middle Easterners and Northern Indians are White? No exceptions?
  81. @notanon

    What is it that makes Indian Americans and Chinese Americans part of the same demographic?
     
    Similar positions on the "more recently barbarian" spectrum.

    If you took every ethnic group and gave them a score of say
    - 1 point per century of herding
    - 2 (possibly more) points per century of farming
    since they were hunter-gatherers and then ranked them, the ones with similar scores would be similar in certain traits

    imo.

    Large chunks of China and India would have very high scores.

    North Europeans would have quite a low score - which is both a good thing and a bad thing imo depending on context.

    It depends on which North Europeans. Remember, Britain not only partook of Neolithic farming culture early on, it became a Roman province over two thousand years ago. Even after the Germanic invasion, it held on to a high level of culture. England produced a learned figure of Saxon stock like Bede the Venerable in the VIII century.
    It’s ridiculous to say the settlers and pioneers who founded the USA, of mostly British stock, were not far removed in time from barbarism. In fact, the opposite is the truth: they hailed from one of the most civilized and advanced societies at the time, with a very long history.

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    Even after the Germanic invasion, it held on to a high level of culture.

    this is false.
  82. @AnonNJ
    I have a lot of non-white friends, co-workers, and neighbors (though I'm personally inclined to think of Middle-Easterners and at least through to Northern India as "white"). My daughters go to schools under 25% white. I've heard all sorts of interesting things from people not trying to be politically correct. I've heard what East Asian parents think when their kids marry white or even black. I've heard what various black groups thin of each other (let's just say that Carribean blacks are not all that keen to be lumped in with African Americans). I've heard what various Hispanic groups think of each other. I've heard about divisions among Chinese-Americans (FOB - Fresh Off the Boat vs ABC - American-Born Chinese and between Taiwanese, Hong Kong, and Mainland Chinese).

    I've known Indians who married across cultural/caste lines, which creates all sorts of language and tradition issues and listened to a neighbor express her regret that her American-born and raised children can't really speak to their grandparents or ever really go back to India. They are becoming Americanized, even if they still play cricket instead of baseball.

    Let's just say that this fantasy that it is white people vs "people of color" or that there is any real solidarity among "people of color", especially if you remove the great white common enemy from the picture. Some of the worst stereotyping I've heard about African Americans has come from immigrant blacks who feel embarrassed to be compared to African Americans to the point of saying they weren't black.

    It also amuses me that leftists have essentially come back around to calling non-whites "colored people" but just rearranged the words so they could pretentend not to notice and it amazes me that they essentially accept the entire racist view of things with it all being about white and not white, right down to the one-drop rule and lowered expectations.

    The biggest thing that drives people together or apart, in my experience, is culture. Read Keith Richburg's book Out of America for a great illustration of this (stationed in Africa, Richburg often wound up identifying more with white colleagues than black Africans).

    One last point. I think people may be reading too much into the income figures if they are derived from reported income statistics. That word "reported" is important because people under-report their income to evade taxes. A lot of the high reported income Asian ethnicities largely draw salaries and have taxes withheld so cheating is likely minor. A lot of Korean, Vietnamese, Philipino and other people do a lot of private and small business work that deals in cash, involves family connections, and may include barter, where under-reporting is fairly easy. I know a friend's Korean immigrant family does this on a large scale and, while that is anecdotal, I doubt they are alone. Under-reporting income likely also depresses Hispanic and black income figures, too, unless they factor underground economy income into those numbers. I recommend looking at where people live for an assessment of their wealth, not the income they report.

    “I have a lot of non-white friends, co-workers, and neighbors (though I’m personally inclined to think of Middle-Easterners and at least through to Northern India as “white”)”

    All Middle Easterners and Northern Indians are White? No exceptions?

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  83. @Razib Khan
    though let's be clear about one thing. whites as a whole did not invent modernity. modernity was enabled by innovation in the area between london, paris, milan, and berlin, as documented in *human accomplishment* https://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/charles-murray-origins-of-significant-figures-1800-1950.jpg

    But the key inventions of the Industrial Revolution came from Scotland and the North and Midlands of England.

    I suppose you could argue that modernity had already arrived by then.

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  84. @Razib Khan
    one reader thinks this post is an anti-white diatribe. lol.

    I guess a lot of white and Black people think it’s all about us!!! I plan to show the video to my Sikh assistant, who looks like Princess Jasmine (everyone tells her that, and she really does not get tired of hearing it), is fast as hell, though also regrettably sloppy at her work as hell, and is interested in the very dark side of human behavior, as am I.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_Castro_kidnappings,

    She is a criminal justice major and obsessed with the Cleveland kidnapping case. She plans to write her thesis about it. Asians get lost in the mix. It isn’t all “Black and white”.

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  85. @Harold
    Maybe not many people know that because not many people know much at all, but anybody who does know much at all knows that.

    The ‘scientific method’ may have been explicated earlier by non-European thinkers but the spark fell on ground too damp to cause a blaze.

    The world is not moved much by single ideas. Ideas for which the world is not ready are forgotten. Ideas for which the world is ready are often discovered by more than one person nearly simultaneously.

    The ‘scientific method’ may have been explicated earlier by non-European thinkers but the spark fell on ground too damp to cause a blaze.

    Oh but it did Harold, and that’s my point – even people who know a lot don’t know how important the non-European contribution to modern science (and art!) is. The Fibonacci sequence, quadratic equations, ink, binary numbers, cataract surgery, fibre optics, plastic surgery, approximation of pi, sine/cosine… etc. etc.

    Non-European thinkers created a blaze large enough to end the Dark Ages in Europe and continue to keep it burning today… the boson particle for instance is named after Indian physicist Satyendra Bose who helped lay the foundations of quantum physics with Einstein.

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  86. @Razib Khan
    though let's be clear about one thing. whites as a whole did not invent modernity. modernity was enabled by innovation in the area between london, paris, milan, and berlin, as documented in *human accomplishment* https://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/charles-murray-origins-of-significant-figures-1800-1950.jpg

    So modernity was not created by Whites as a whole just a more narrow geographical area of Whites. Just to be clear the ideas, innovations, and institutions that define the modern world did not originate in any area between Tokyo, Beijing, Seoul or Mumbai. It is still funny that people from those areas who have found success by studying Western medicine, science, and technology could find the arrogance to look down on people from London, Paris, Milan or Berlin. Just to be clear. It just seems so irrational for people who are so smart.

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    Western medicine, science, and technology could find the arrogance to look down on people from London, Paris, Milan or Berlin.

    they're not looking down at people from those european cities. they're looking down at *american whites* in particular, they look down on american whites in some of the same ways that european whites often look down on them (big cars, over indulgence, etc.).

    also, i tend to agree with you to a great extent here, Just to be clear the ideas, innovations, and institutions that define the modern world did not originate in any area between Tokyo, Beijing, Seoul or Mumbai.

    but christianity or 'arabic' numerals are by some defintional of modernity. this is a semantic argument, but your brush strikes me as too broad here....
  87. @APaige
    So modernity was not created by Whites as a whole just a more narrow geographical area of Whites. Just to be clear the ideas, innovations, and institutions that define the modern world did not originate in any area between Tokyo, Beijing, Seoul or Mumbai. It is still funny that people from those areas who have found success by studying Western medicine, science, and technology could find the arrogance to look down on people from London, Paris, Milan or Berlin. Just to be clear. It just seems so irrational for people who are so smart.

    Western medicine, science, and technology could find the arrogance to look down on people from London, Paris, Milan or Berlin.

    they’re not looking down at people from those european cities. they’re looking down at *american whites* in particular, they look down on american whites in some of the same ways that european whites often look down on them (big cars, over indulgence, etc.).

    also, i tend to agree with you to a great extent here, Just to be clear the ideas, innovations, and institutions that define the modern world did not originate in any area between Tokyo, Beijing, Seoul or Mumbai.

    but christianity or ‘arabic’ numerals are by some defintional of modernity. this is a semantic argument, but your brush strikes me as too broad here….

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  88. @BB753
    It depends on which North Europeans. Remember, Britain not only partook of Neolithic farming culture early on, it became a Roman province over two thousand years ago. Even after the Germanic invasion, it held on to a high level of culture. England produced a learned figure of Saxon stock like Bede the Venerable in the VIII century.
    It's ridiculous to say the settlers and pioneers who founded the USA, of mostly British stock, were not far removed in time from barbarism. In fact, the opposite is the truth: they hailed from one of the most civilized and advanced societies at the time, with a very long history.

    Even after the Germanic invasion, it held on to a high level of culture.

    this is false.

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  89. […] Razib Khan notices real, existing belief preservation shaping public policy and the public-policy debate in the United States: […]

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