The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 Gene Expression BlogTeasers
All Non-Basque Spaniards Do Have Moorish Admixture
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments

F1.large

611Obs5nZKL._SX317_BO1,204,203,200_ I just realized in the post below that I casually stated that pretty much all non-Basque people in Spain have significant ancestry from people who were Muslim at some point since the fall of the Visigothic kingdom. By significant I mean more than ~1%. So not just a genealogical line of descent, but genomic ancestry attributable to a specific historical event. But perhaps I should justify this a bit. The reason is two-fold. First, many people are not totally aware of what’s going on in genetics over the past five years or so. That’s important, because a lot of data has come online. Second, fleshing out the details matters. After all, one might contend that North African signals date to the Roman era, rather than the Moorish period.

This paper in PNAS, Gene flow from North Africa contributes to differential human genetic diversity in southern Europe, is the best survey I know. It establishes a few points. For example, the Basque differ from people from other regions of Spain in that they lack much evidence of North African admixture. The historical and social separation of the Basque country during the Moorish period, and also after the Reconquista, is a pretty good rationale for why this might be. Second, the paper establishes some regional variation in the admixture. There’s more in Andalusia. Roughly, it seems that areas closer to North Africa, but probably more significantly under Muslim rule longer, have more admixture from the Maghreb. Third, a lot of it is too recent to be Roman. Looking at segment length the authors estimate a lower bound of ~300 years. After reading the post from Saturday you should understand why this statistic needs to be handled with caution. Additionally, it is important to note that the gene-sharing between Spaniards and North Africans occurs in cases where the North African population of interest has no European ancestry at all. That is strongly indicative of gene flow from North Africa to Europe, rather than bidirectional dynamics. Finally, it looks to be that pretty much all the very low level Sub-Saharan admixture you can find in Spain is attributable to the Moorish period, because the Berbers and Arabs who arrived had that element in their ancestry due to the ubiquity of the trans-Saharan slave trade.

51Yo9eyogRL._SX322_BO1,204,203,200_ Of course we need to careful about over-interpreting this. It looks to be that on the order of ~10 percent of the ancestry is due to migration from North Africa. In my judgement this isn’t really that much, considering that most of Spain was ruled by Muslims for 400 years (Muslim power was in sharp recession by 1200, and the conquest of Granada nearly 300 years later was really just a mopping up expedition). This is likely due to two factors. First, Spain was one of the more populous regions of the Western Roman Empire, and the arrival of the Visigoths did not result in nearly the disruption as occurred elsewhere. Despite the Germanic character of the Visigoths, like southern France to my knowledge Roman culture exhibited some continuity in the peninsula. Second, the vast increase in the number of Muslims in the peninsula occurred as it did elsewhere, through conversion and intermarriage. Three of Caliph Abd-ar-Rahman III’s grandparents were born Christian (his paternal grandmother also gave rise to a prominent line of Christian princes through her second marriage). One source suggests that ~80 percent of population of the Iberian peninsula in 1100 was Muslim, after a massive wave of conversion over the previous two centuries (this sort of latency, where Islam is an elite religion for the first century or two, is actually typical). Combined with the genetic data, which suggests widespread admixture with a North African element throughout the population, it is highly likely that Spain is one area of the world where the vast majority of the population have many lineages which went from Christian to Muslim and then Christian again (as well as Jews who became Muslim and whose descendants became Christian!).

516ZEEEK2XL._SX332_BO1,204,203,200_ The point in rehashing all this is that in Michael Cook’s Ancient Religion, Modern Politics, he repeats a common belief that Islam in particular exhibits a tendency where cultures tend to have an irreversible transition. Once Muslim, always Muslim. He gives Morisco recalcitrance in Spain after the conquest of Granada as evidence, but that is misleading because these were a rump community, and even among Moriscos many converted in the century after the fall of the Muslim kingdom. Spain is one of the best examples that Islam is like any other religion, under concerted pressure and inducement individuals, and more importantly whole communities, switch identities.

Cook does grant that a substantial number of Muslims in China assimilated to a Han identity. This is well attested for elite lineages of Muslims and Jews (from Kaifeng), whose entrance into the mandarin class of scholar-bureaucrats almost always presaged total assimilation. But it is probably at least as true for the vast majority of non-elite Hui, many of whom also shifted toward the Han identity. In the 20th century it was a truism among the Hui, reported without much skepticism, that Han can become Hui (through conversion), but the converse is not true. The problem with this is that the social norms and mores as such that movement from Hui to Han is never going to be widely documented, while a shift in the other direction will be. As it happens, there is now ethnographic evidence from southern China and Taiwan of whole communities which shifted from Hui identity to a Han one, with their Muslim origins being preserved in oral memory, as well as the persistence of customs such as not offering pork on ancestral graves in deference to the religion of these forebears. Over the past few centuries Muslim communities in China proper have become reintegrated into the world-wide Ummah, and undergone several waves of reform which have resulted in conformity with world normative Islam. But before this it seems likely that there was a continuous flow of Hui into the Han population through assimilation, in particular because there are many documented beliefs of Hui in the 18th century which seem to suggest a convergence with Daoism and Pure Land Buddhism.

All this is not to say that Cook’s thesis, and the public perception, does not have an element of truth to it. It is simply that the reality is a little more complex and less supportive after you scratch below the surface.

Genetic addendum: I have my own data sets, and decided to double check the results above. Including in these data the 1000 Genomes IBS (Spain) samples. You can see from the PCA and TreeMix (all of them exhibited the same topology) that something is going on with non-Basque Spaniards. The Italian position is explained by the fact that these are southern Italian samples, and those tend to exhibit affinities to Eastern Mediterranean groups. Please note that I removed all markers with missing calls and outliers as well. There were 130,000 SNPs in the final data.



Rplot32

Spain9

 
• Category: Science • Tags: Genomics 
    []
  1. DH says:

    By significant I mean more than ~1%.

    And what that percerntage be then? It cannot be much larger than 1% judging by the data presented in this post.
    Both last plots, but in particular the PC1 vs PC2 scatter plot, seem to indicate that there is little admixture between the Mozabite and North African components and the rest. The Basques are apart from the rest of Spain, which is only logic, but I don’t see overlapping between Spain/IBS and Mozabite/North African dots.
    Back to history the northern Christian kingdoms were never conquered by the Muslim invasion, and that means more than just the Basques. In particular Asturias, Galicia, Northern Leon, etc. And after the Reconquista dozens of thousands or hunderes of thousands of Moors, depending on the source, were expelled.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    And what that percerntage be then? It cannot be much larger than 1% judging by the data presented in this post.

    hey dipshit, did you read the fucking post? "It looks to be that on the order of ~10 percent of the ancestry is due to migration from North Africa." or the paper? "Estimates of North African ancestry range between 5% and 14% in the European populations and trends of the overall ancestry clines are concordant with ADMIXTURE."

    fwiw, the paper i linked has galician samples. they define the 5% low bound judging by the plot up top. my own hunch is that the special social-cultural isolation of basques after even christian expansion and during the joint monarchy of castile-aragon persisted down to the modern era (revocation of basque customary rights during the 19th century were one reason why they have had national aspirations since then in some form).

    (note, the mozabites are a very drifted population with ~25% sub-saharan ancestry, so they are an outgroup, not the source population; i did not post the 3-population tests, but show very significant evidence of admixture between north africans and basque to produce IBS/spain populations, though mozabites too, but lower z-score)

    note: if your next comment is as stupid i'm not posting it.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
    AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
    These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
    Sharing Comment via Twitter
    /gnxp/spaniards-do-have-moorish-admixture/#comment-1098555
    More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  2. From the paper:-
    “Because population structure, CONTINUOUS GENE FLOW, assortative mating, and errors in assignments MAY CONSIDERABLY INCREASE THE VARIANCE (AND THUS REDUCE THE EFFECTIVE MIGRATION TIME), WE CONSIDER THESE TIME ESTIMATES TO BE LOWER BOUNDS: under all of the proposed variance-increasing scenarios, there must be a substantial proportion of migration that has occurred before the effective migration time, possibly much earlier.”

    I believe that there is considerable evidence for several, much earlier (prehistoric) migrations from North Africa into Iberia. Although the Moorish conquest is a well-documented historical event, there is plenty of genetic evidence (and to a small extent archaeological) in support of much earlier migratory and admixture events.

    One recent paper:-

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25130626

    Over the sands and far away: interpreting an Iberian mitochondrial lineage with ancient Western African origins.

    Abstract
    OBJECTIVES:
    There is an ongoing effort to characterize the genetic links between Africa and Europe, mostly using lineages and haplotypes that are specific to one continent but had an ancient origin in the other. Mitochondrial DNA has been proven to be a very useful tool for this purpose since a high number of putatively European-specific variants of the African L* lineages have been defined over the years. Due to their geographic locations, Spain and Portugal seem to be ideal places for searching for these lineages.
    METHODS:
    Five members of a minor branch of haplogroup L3f were found in recent DNA samplings in the region of Asturias (Northern Spain), which is known for its historical isolation. The frequency of L3f in this population (≈1%) is unexpectedly high in comparison with other related lineages in Europe. Complete mitochondrial DNA sequencing of these L3f lineages, as well phylogenetic and phylogeographic comparative analyses have been performed.
    RESULTS:
    The L3f variant found in Asturias seems to constitute an Iberian-specific haplogroup, distantly related to lineages in Northern Africa and with a deep ancestry in Western Africa. Coalescent algorithms estimate the minimum arrival time as 8,000 years ago, and a possible route through the Gibraltar Strait.
    CONCLUSIONS:
    Results are concordant with a previously proposed Neolithic connection between Southern Europe and Western Africa, which might be key to the proper understanding of the ancient links between these two continents.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    i think there's something there. but the signal is is pretty weak. water is a great barrier, even one of a short distance. also, i'm pretty wary of over-reading from small N uniparental lineages in the generality. there are issues with coalescent models which seem to give varied results dependent on all the parameter values you have. to give you an example, spencer wells has personally told me he no longer holds to many of the things he believed in 2005 based on uniparental data because of what ancient DNA has told us.
  3. Some North African elements could have arrived with the Carthaginians in pre-roman times. There would be little reason for maghrebin colonists to come during roman rule because Spain was the first roman conquest outside Italy, so it was colonised with citizens from Italy (like the family from the north italian city of Adria that established itself in Baetica and gave birth to Trajan, Hadrian and Marcus Aurelius) before the roman conquest of Africa.
    But the most likely source are indeed the berbers because they not only took part in the initial Islamic conquest but also later controlled muslim Spain during the 150 years of Almoravid and Almohad rule over al-Andalus from Marrakesh.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    Some North African elements could have arrived with the Carthaginians in pre-roman times.

    this is a possibility. but note that

    1) the segments are really long. you are pushing it back one order of magnitude.

    2) the sub-saharan % is strongly correlated with NA ancestry. that's much more likely for a muslim period admixture event. all the evidence from the muslim world suggests that sub-saharan ancestry really shot up with the rise of islam due to facilitated trade, camel, etc. (historical and genetic)

    3) of course the ancestry is berber. the vast majority of the north africans are arbicized berbers. tariq was a berber. i believe the ummayyad emirate's founder's mother was a berber. a substantial portion of 'real arabs' in n africa actually arrived in the 11th century, way after the time when there was probably large scale migration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Hilal
  4. @DH

    By significant I mean more than ~1%.
     
    And what that percerntage be then? It cannot be much larger than 1% judging by the data presented in this post.
    Both last plots, but in particular the PC1 vs PC2 scatter plot, seem to indicate that there is little admixture between the Mozabite and North African components and the rest. The Basques are apart from the rest of Spain, which is only logic, but I don't see overlapping between Spain/IBS and Mozabite/North African dots.
    Back to history the northern Christian kingdoms were never conquered by the Muslim invasion, and that means more than just the Basques. In particular Asturias, Galicia, Northern Leon, etc. And after the Reconquista dozens of thousands or hunderes of thousands of Moors, depending on the source, were expelled.

    And what that percerntage be then? It cannot be much larger than 1% judging by the data presented in this post.

    hey dipshit, did you read the fucking post? “It looks to be that on the order of ~10 percent of the ancestry is due to migration from North Africa.” or the paper? “Estimates of North African ancestry range between 5% and 14% in the European populations and trends of the overall ancestry clines are concordant with ADMIXTURE.”

    fwiw, the paper i linked has galician samples. they define the 5% low bound judging by the plot up top. my own hunch is that the special social-cultural isolation of basques after even christian expansion and during the joint monarchy of castile-aragon persisted down to the modern era (revocation of basque customary rights during the 19th century were one reason why they have had national aspirations since then in some form).

    (note, the mozabites are a very drifted population with ~25% sub-saharan ancestry, so they are an outgroup, not the source population; i did not post the 3-population tests, but show very significant evidence of admixture between north africans and basque to produce IBS/spain populations, though mozabites too, but lower z-score)

    note: if your next comment is as stupid i’m not posting it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Shaikorth
    Are you certain it's Galicians who set the 5% low bound in that graph? Their North African level seems to be rather similar to Andalucians and Portuguese there, while "Spa" (or even more so Basques) have lowest still visible values. In fig 3. they show Galicians even share slightly more haplotypes with South Moroccans and West Saharans than Andalucians do.

    http://www.pnas.org/content/110/29/11791/F3.large.jpg
  5. @Pseudonymic Handle
    Some North African elements could have arrived with the Carthaginians in pre-roman times. There would be little reason for maghrebin colonists to come during roman rule because Spain was the first roman conquest outside Italy, so it was colonised with citizens from Italy (like the family from the north italian city of Adria that established itself in Baetica and gave birth to Trajan, Hadrian and Marcus Aurelius) before the roman conquest of Africa.
    But the most likely source are indeed the berbers because they not only took part in the initial Islamic conquest but also later controlled muslim Spain during the 150 years of Almoravid and Almohad rule over al-Andalus from Marrakesh.

    Some North African elements could have arrived with the Carthaginians in pre-roman times.

    this is a possibility. but note that

    1) the segments are really long. you are pushing it back one order of magnitude.

    2) the sub-saharan % is strongly correlated with NA ancestry. that’s much more likely for a muslim period admixture event. all the evidence from the muslim world suggests that sub-saharan ancestry really shot up with the rise of islam due to facilitated trade, camel, etc. (historical and genetic)

    3) of course the ancestry is berber. the vast majority of the north africans are arbicized berbers. tariq was a berber. i believe the ummayyad emirate’s founder’s mother was a berber. a substantial portion of ‘real arabs’ in n africa actually arrived in the 11th century, way after the time when there was probably large scale migration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Hilal

    Read More
  6. @Chris Davies
    From the paper:-
    "Because population structure, CONTINUOUS GENE FLOW, assortative mating, and errors in assignments MAY CONSIDERABLY INCREASE THE VARIANCE (AND THUS REDUCE THE EFFECTIVE MIGRATION TIME), WE CONSIDER THESE TIME ESTIMATES TO BE LOWER BOUNDS: under all of the proposed variance-increasing scenarios, there must be a substantial proportion of migration that has occurred before the effective migration time, possibly much earlier."


    I believe that there is considerable evidence for several, much earlier (prehistoric) migrations from North Africa into Iberia. Although the Moorish conquest is a well-documented historical event, there is plenty of genetic evidence (and to a small extent archaeological) in support of much earlier migratory and admixture events.

    One recent paper:-

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25130626

    Over the sands and far away: interpreting an Iberian mitochondrial lineage with ancient Western African origins.

    Abstract
    OBJECTIVES:
    There is an ongoing effort to characterize the genetic links between Africa and Europe, mostly using lineages and haplotypes that are specific to one continent but had an ancient origin in the other. Mitochondrial DNA has been proven to be a very useful tool for this purpose since a high number of putatively European-specific variants of the African L* lineages have been defined over the years. Due to their geographic locations, Spain and Portugal seem to be ideal places for searching for these lineages.
    METHODS:
    Five members of a minor branch of haplogroup L3f were found in recent DNA samplings in the region of Asturias (Northern Spain), which is known for its historical isolation. The frequency of L3f in this population (≈1%) is unexpectedly high in comparison with other related lineages in Europe. Complete mitochondrial DNA sequencing of these L3f lineages, as well phylogenetic and phylogeographic comparative analyses have been performed.
    RESULTS:
    The L3f variant found in Asturias seems to constitute an Iberian-specific haplogroup, distantly related to lineages in Northern Africa and with a deep ancestry in Western Africa. Coalescent algorithms estimate the minimum arrival time as 8,000 years ago, and a possible route through the Gibraltar Strait.
    CONCLUSIONS:
    Results are concordant with a previously proposed Neolithic connection between Southern Europe and Western Africa, which might be key to the proper understanding of the ancient links between these two continents.

    i think there’s something there. but the signal is is pretty weak. water is a great barrier, even one of a short distance. also, i’m pretty wary of over-reading from small N uniparental lineages in the generality. there are issues with coalescent models which seem to give varied results dependent on all the parameter values you have. to give you an example, spencer wells has personally told me he no longer holds to many of the things he believed in 2005 based on uniparental data because of what ancient DNA has told us.

    Read More
  7. p.s. though not a major focus of this post, one thing that made me think the moorish period was significant: the fact that once large scale genome data of spanish samples arrived it is very obvious this is one european population where low levels of sub-saharan african ancestry is not an aberration. and it is literally the only one (with the much fainter exception of sicily, which also coincidentally had a muslim period of rule, though more short-lived). it shows up in many individuals; on the order of 1% or so. but this is genetically significant very significant, since ss-african ancestry is so distinct.

    Read More
  8. also: re: old connections across the straits. one thing to remember is that ancient DNA now suggests most of the ancestry of modern spaniards dates to the neolithic. those connnection then may be mostly marginalized…or i think more likely, the haplogroup affinity is evidence of some common settlement from an ancient source population. though last i checked berber groups are rather different from sardinians. so i don’t know.

    Read More
  9. Ancient DNA also suggests early migrations from North Africa into Iberia.
    -4 x L3 mtdna sequences from Chalcolithic sites in Valencia;
    -2 x L1b1 mtdna sequences from Nerja caves (Megalithic site) in Andalusia;
    -3 x L2 mtdna sequences from Neolithic site in Navarra (Basque Country);

    Plus populations in Northern Spain and Basque Country which were unaffected by the Moors harbour E-M81 Y DNA and U6 or L mtdna types (all typical of Berbers) at notable frequencies.

    Other evidence:-

    -Ceramics from Neolithic sites in Oran, Eastern Rif and Andalusia bear very strong similarities with each other.
    -There are also strong similarities among lithic industries from early Neolithic sites in Portugal, Andalusia, and Maghreb.
    -Straighteners made on human bone are found in Neolithic sites in Andalusia and Maghreb.
    -Use of a large variety of plant species and many domesticated animals in both regions, as opposed to the more restricted and specialised cereal use in other regions of Europe in early Neolithic.
    -African T1 haplogroup in early Neolithic cattle sample from southern Iberia [and also in later Roman and Medieval samples - prior to the Moors].

    Also, a quick look at a major HLA haplotype of North African origin in Iberia shows highest frequencies in regions with strongest Moorish influence, but the same haplotypes can also be found at notable yet lower frequencies in those areas unaffected (or affected very little) by the Moors: Pas Valley; Gipuzkoa Basques; Arratia Valley Basques; North Cabuerniga; North Cantabria. These haplotypes then spread northwards to Ireland and Western Britain, reaching as far north as Orkney [Megalithic culture?]

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    it is clear they are derived, or perhaps sister clades?
    , @ryanwc
    But of course these are also the areas least affected by previous empires/trading cultures. The Romans clearly didn't assimilate the Basques, and the Phoenician/Punic presence is found in most places in Spain but not in the Basque country. Most of what is being adduced as cultural or historical supporting evidence for a solely Islamic-conquest-mediated genetic presence here is not being well thought through.
  10. @Chris Davies
    Ancient DNA also suggests early migrations from North Africa into Iberia.
    -4 x L3 mtdna sequences from Chalcolithic sites in Valencia;
    -2 x L1b1 mtdna sequences from Nerja caves (Megalithic site) in Andalusia;
    -3 x L2 mtdna sequences from Neolithic site in Navarra (Basque Country);

    Plus populations in Northern Spain and Basque Country which were unaffected by the Moors harbour E-M81 Y DNA and U6 or L mtdna types (all typical of Berbers) at notable frequencies.

    Other evidence:-

    -Ceramics from Neolithic sites in Oran, Eastern Rif and Andalusia bear very strong similarities with each other.
    -There are also strong similarities among lithic industries from early Neolithic sites in Portugal, Andalusia, and Maghreb.
    -Straighteners made on human bone are found in Neolithic sites in Andalusia and Maghreb.
    -Use of a large variety of plant species and many domesticated animals in both regions, as opposed to the more restricted and specialised cereal use in other regions of Europe in early Neolithic.
    -African T1 haplogroup in early Neolithic cattle sample from southern Iberia [and also in later Roman and Medieval samples - prior to the Moors].

    Also, a quick look at a major HLA haplotype of North African origin in Iberia shows highest frequencies in regions with strongest Moorish influence, but the same haplotypes can also be found at notable yet lower frequencies in those areas unaffected (or affected very little) by the Moors: Pas Valley; Gipuzkoa Basques; Arratia Valley Basques; North Cabuerniga; North Cantabria. These haplotypes then spread northwards to Ireland and Western Britain, reaching as far north as Orkney [Megalithic culture?]

    it is clear they are derived, or perhaps sister clades?

    Read More
  11. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    That the Portuguese have substantial sub Saharan recent ancestry has been known for a very long time. Certainly before the era of genetic genealogy.

    Read More
  12. “it is clear they are derived, or perhaps sister clades?”

    If you are referring to my comment on the HLA haplotype, in majority of cases it is the same one. Maghreb –> Iberia/W.France –> Ireland/W.Britain.

    A*29:02-B*44:03-C*16:01-DRB1*07:02-DQB1*02:02

    See also:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9382919

    Frequencies in Europe:-

    Spain Gipuzkoa Basque – 10.00%
    Spain Catalonia Girona – 7.50%
    Basque – 7.30%
    Spain Ibiza – 6.10%
    Spain Arratia Valley Basque – 5.30%
    Spanish – 5.20%
    Spain Murcia – 5.10%
    England Cornish – 4.90%
    Spain Majorca & Minorca – 4.40%
    Spain Minorca – 3.90%
    French – 3.20%
    Portuguese – 3.20%
    Ireland Northern – 2.80%
    Spain Minority [Germany DKMS] – 2.78%
    Spain Pas Valley – 2.70%
    Spain Majorcan Jews- 2.60%
    Corsica – 2.50%
    Portugal Viana do Castelo – 2.50%
    Portugal Vila Real – 2.40%
    Portugal Braganca – 2.40%
    Spain Majorca – 2.30%
    Belgian – 2.30%
    Portugal North – 2.20%
    Spain North Cabuerniga – 2.20%
    Italian – 2.10%
    France Minority [Germany DKMS] – 2.04%
    Portugal South – 2.00%
    Portugal Lisbon – 2.00%
    Ireland South – 1.80%
    Danish – 1.80%
    British – 1.70
    Switzerland – 1.67%
    Portugal Minority [Germany DKMS] – 1.65%
    United Kingdom Minority [Germany DKMS] – 1.56%
    Wales – 1.50%
    Italy Pop. 5 [N.Italy] – 1.33%
    Austria Minority [Germany DKMS] – 1.16%
    Germany – 1.00%
    Germany Pop.6 – 1.00%
    Italy Minority [Germany DKMS] – 0.93%
    Netherlands Minority [Germany DKMS] – 0.79%
    Poland Minority [Germany DKMS] – 0.68%
    Romania Minority [Germany DKMS] – 0.65%
    Bosnia & Herzegovina Minority [Germany DKMS] – 0.49%
    Croatia Minority [Germany DKMS] – 0.29%
    Greece Minority [Germany DKMS] – 0.16%
    Turkey Minority [Germany DKMS] – 0.10%
    etc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    mtDNA and Y. don't know how to interpret HLA (too much selection).
  13. @Chris Davies
    "it is clear they are derived, or perhaps sister clades?"

    If you are referring to my comment on the HLA haplotype, in majority of cases it is the same one. Maghreb --> Iberia/W.France --> Ireland/W.Britain.

    A*29:02-B*44:03-C*16:01-DRB1*07:02-DQB1*02:02

    See also:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9382919

    Frequencies in Europe:-

    Spain Gipuzkoa Basque - 10.00%
    Spain Catalonia Girona - 7.50%
    Basque - 7.30%
    Spain Ibiza - 6.10%
    Spain Arratia Valley Basque - 5.30%
    Spanish - 5.20%
    Spain Murcia - 5.10%
    England Cornish - 4.90%
    Spain Majorca & Minorca - 4.40%
    Spain Minorca - 3.90%
    French - 3.20%
    Portuguese - 3.20%
    Ireland Northern - 2.80%
    Spain Minority [Germany DKMS] - 2.78%
    Spain Pas Valley - 2.70%
    Spain Majorcan Jews- 2.60%
    Corsica - 2.50%
    Portugal Viana do Castelo - 2.50%
    Portugal Vila Real - 2.40%
    Portugal Braganca - 2.40%
    Spain Majorca - 2.30%
    Belgian - 2.30%
    Portugal North - 2.20%
    Spain North Cabuerniga - 2.20%
    Italian - 2.10%
    France Minority [Germany DKMS] - 2.04%
    Portugal South - 2.00%
    Portugal Lisbon - 2.00%
    Ireland South - 1.80%
    Danish - 1.80%
    British - 1.70
    Switzerland - 1.67%
    Portugal Minority [Germany DKMS] - 1.65%
    United Kingdom Minority [Germany DKMS] - 1.56%
    Wales - 1.50%
    Italy Pop. 5 [N.Italy] - 1.33%
    Austria Minority [Germany DKMS] - 1.16%
    Germany - 1.00%
    Germany Pop.6 - 1.00%
    Italy Minority [Germany DKMS] - 0.93%
    Netherlands Minority [Germany DKMS] - 0.79%
    Poland Minority [Germany DKMS] - 0.68%
    Romania Minority [Germany DKMS] - 0.65%
    Bosnia & Herzegovina Minority [Germany DKMS] - 0.49%
    Croatia Minority [Germany DKMS] - 0.29%
    Greece Minority [Germany DKMS] - 0.16%
    Turkey Minority [Germany DKMS] - 0.10%
    etc.

    mtDNA and Y. don’t know how to interpret HLA (too much selection).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vijay
    My point exactly; in an earlier comment exchange, he pointed to HLA references; after reading them all, I could still not understand the HLA frequencies. Whereas, I do not think that HLA analyses should be ignored, still they make less sense to me than mt and Y dna.
  14. Vijay says:
    @Razib Khan
    mtDNA and Y. don't know how to interpret HLA (too much selection).

    My point exactly; in an earlier comment exchange, he pointed to HLA references; after reading them all, I could still not understand the HLA frequencies. Whereas, I do not think that HLA analyses should be ignored, still they make less sense to me than mt and Y dna.

    Read More
  15. Shaikorth says:
    @Razib Khan
    And what that percerntage be then? It cannot be much larger than 1% judging by the data presented in this post.

    hey dipshit, did you read the fucking post? "It looks to be that on the order of ~10 percent of the ancestry is due to migration from North Africa." or the paper? "Estimates of North African ancestry range between 5% and 14% in the European populations and trends of the overall ancestry clines are concordant with ADMIXTURE."

    fwiw, the paper i linked has galician samples. they define the 5% low bound judging by the plot up top. my own hunch is that the special social-cultural isolation of basques after even christian expansion and during the joint monarchy of castile-aragon persisted down to the modern era (revocation of basque customary rights during the 19th century were one reason why they have had national aspirations since then in some form).

    (note, the mozabites are a very drifted population with ~25% sub-saharan ancestry, so they are an outgroup, not the source population; i did not post the 3-population tests, but show very significant evidence of admixture between north africans and basque to produce IBS/spain populations, though mozabites too, but lower z-score)

    note: if your next comment is as stupid i'm not posting it.

    Are you certain it’s Galicians who set the 5% low bound in that graph? Their North African level seems to be rather similar to Andalucians and Portuguese there, while “Spa” (or even more so Basques) have lowest still visible values. In fig 3. they show Galicians even share slightly more haplotypes with South Moroccans and West Saharans than Andalucians do.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    yeah, you are right! that makes some sense, insofar as initially they put the berber tribes on the northern marches. really there's a lot less variance than you'd expect outside of the basque country. here's dienekes old post that reinforces (IBS data)

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/12/first-assessment-of-1000-genomes.html
  16. @Shaikorth
    Are you certain it's Galicians who set the 5% low bound in that graph? Their North African level seems to be rather similar to Andalucians and Portuguese there, while "Spa" (or even more so Basques) have lowest still visible values. In fig 3. they show Galicians even share slightly more haplotypes with South Moroccans and West Saharans than Andalucians do.

    http://www.pnas.org/content/110/29/11791/F3.large.jpg

    yeah, you are right! that makes some sense, insofar as initially they put the berber tribes on the northern marches. really there’s a lot less variance than you’d expect outside of the basque country. here’s dienekes old post that reinforces (IBS data)

    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/12/first-assessment-of-1000-genomes.html

    Read More
  17. mtdna ‘L’ lineages in Europe are most frequent in Iberia, and are found in all regions of the peninsula. Cerezo et al (2012) determined that:

    “~65% of the European L lineages most likely arrived in rather recent historical times, including the Romanization period, the Arab conquest of the Iberian Peninsula and Sicily, and during the period of the Atlantic slave trade.
    However, the remaining 35% of L mtDNAs form European-specific subclades, revealing that there was gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa toward Europe* as early as 11,000 yr ago.”
    *[almost certainly via North Africa of course]

    Peak European frequencies of North African Y DNA E-M81 were found in Pasiegos of Cantabria at 18% in one sample (Maca-Meyer et al 2003); and 41% in another (Cruciani et al 2004).

    There is no evidence for selection of the A*29:02-B*44:03-C*16:01-DRB1*07:01-DQB1*02:02 haplotype. The evidence is for an asymmetric migration <10kya.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HLA-Cw*16#A29-Cw.2A16-B44

    Read More
  18. Does 23andme ancestry references have samples that would be noted as North African? I’m 1/4 Mexican presumably with Spanish ancestry from Andulusia but don’t recall anything broadly Middle Eastern or specifically North African in the estimates. I recall some percentage broadly “Iberian” though. Interestingly the Amerindian signals are relatively high estimates

    Read More
  19. T. Greer says: • Website

    A good friend of mine is Hui. I was surprised to find this out — she is a practicing Mormon, and her parents are atheists who have nothing to distinguish them from normal Han. Her grandparents are practicing Muslims, however, and she grew up in Shijiazhuang’s Hui quarter.

    She made her family’s history sound like the norm for her neighborhood. I have not been able to find any stats, however, if her family is representative of Hui in Hebei or eastern China more generally.

    Read More
  20. De Soto says:

    Canarians are not fully Spanish in that they have indigenous canarian admixture (the Guanches, of Berber origin). So that 14% maximum of range, it’s probably them.

    Read More
  21. De Soto says:

    Btw, I don’t think it has to do with the Islamic period. As you can see on the admixture bar above, the Galicians have the same amound as Andalusias, and Galicia was only 20 years under islamic rule…It doesn’t make sense. The sources are probably much older.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    you're wrong

    -blocks are too long. it was recent

    -second, just because the admixture is NOW in place X, does not mean it was always in place X. e.g., the "no-man's land" now has lots of people. they came from elsewhere.
  22. Jefferson says:

    The Moor invasion would explain why you get Southern Europeans who look like The Turturro Brothers, Jim Croce, Rafael Nadal, Antonio Banderas, Tony Danza, Tom Savini, Javier Bardem, and Cristiano Ronaldo for example.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hibernian
    My cousin's wife who is Italian looks like the average Hispanic woman. All of the European People of Color I ever met were Italian or Greek except for one Romanian woman who is a professional civil engineer and a semi-professional opera singer.
  23. @De Soto
    Btw, I don't think it has to do with the Islamic period. As you can see on the admixture bar above, the Galicians have the same amound as Andalusias, and Galicia was only 20 years under islamic rule...It doesn't make sense. The sources are probably much older.

    you’re wrong

    -blocks are too long. it was recent

    -second, just because the admixture is NOW in place X, does not mean it was always in place X. e.g., the “no-man’s land” now has lots of people. they came from elsewhere.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I'm from Galicia, and people usually forget to look into our historical documentation, which reveals the presence of "Moor" and "Ethiopian" slaves working as artisans, domestic serfs, or as farmers in the lands of counts and richmen -and even in the dependencies of Christian monasteries- from the 9th century to the 13th century. Many of these people - who were sometimes captured in military campaigns in the south (as stated in royal charters which granted 10/20/5o captured serfs of both genders to this monastery or that Cathedral) but many other times they had been simply bought and brought here- would acquire their freedom in just one or two generations, after baptising and taking local names and/or marrying a local man/woman (and having children). In particular, saint Rudesind -who was extremely rich for the time and place- freed his family's maid Muzalha in the 943 CE, giving her also a important number of properties.

    Of course, documentation also show some serfs preferred to flee to the south.

    Some references, in Spanish, in the pages 100-108 here: http://consellodacultura.gal/mediateca/extras/xenetica.pdf. I can give further (but not exhaustive) references and examples, if someone is really interested.

    PS: Of course, also Galician and northern slaves were found in medieval Al-Andalus, so there was a two way gene flow.
  24. ryanwc says:

    But clearly Basques also maintained their physical (and so likely their genetic) boundaries during the Roman period, when no one else did, hence the survival of the language. And also in the pre-Roman period. Aliam incolunt Aquitani (Euskadani?)

    The Punic presence in Spain certainly lasted 3/4ths of a millennium from Gadir to the final runs of coinage, even allowing that the mythical origin in 1104 BC is inaccurate. Gades is counted the largest city in the empire by some at a point when as far as I can tell, it still seems to be in large part Punic speaking. The ruling theory of Iberia and Mauretania in the early empire in Spanish archaeology is the “circulo del estrecho” – the idea that Betica, Tingitania and the Mauretanian coast formed one culture and economy encircling the Strait (of Gibraltar). It’s hard to see how Punic ancestry could be irrelevant to that of southern Spain. Could the Romans, replacing, likely in an incomplete way, an existing elite at the same cultural level, have left a bigger footprint than the Punics, replacing an elite of a lower level of technology, trade and wealth.

    I get the idea of recent ancestry implied by shared-segment length, but you don’t give statistics on that, just the anecdote that some segment lengths are long. I admit I haven’t read the paper, only your take, so maybe there are stats there on the predominance of longer shared segments. Short of statistics, this seems to tell me only that there was recent admixture, something that I don’t doubt. But not that the Punic presence is immaterial.

    I would also suggest that Punic ancestry was so broadly present at a time when there was significant cross-Mediterranean gene flow, during the empire, that it may have so thoroughly washed into south European genetics that it’s no longer divisible.

    Consider how much trade would have been in Punic hands in the early empire – many of the former Carthaginian cities had allied with Rome and maintained privileges,even nominal independence, till quite late – Cadiz and Utica, Leptis, which gave an emperor with a Punic accent. At just about the time Rome invested so many of these cities, she also gained an empire in the east, and it seems awfully unlikely to me that there wouldn’t have been economies of scale for Punic merchants from Gadeira, Malaka, Utica, Leptis and Carthage itself, who could likely have been understood by the merchants of a newly unified eastern market speaking Aramaic, Phoenician and Hebrew. There are late inscriptions even in Sicily and Sardinia. Augustine seems to have been familiar with the language, still commonly spoken in his diocese. I find it unlikely that the Punic mercantile network didn’t continue to have an enormous impact, including a genetic impact, on the Mediterranean after the conquest of the city of Carthage.

    On the idea that sub-Saharan impact began or began in earnest with Islam, I would note that there seems to have been substantial Punic Saharan trade – ivory, painted ostrich eggs, Niger gold, expeditions beyond

    If the Punic presence didn’t leave a genetic footprint in Spain, that seems like an incredible conundrum that someone needs to examine and explain.

    Read More
  25. ryanwc says:
    @Chris Davies
    Ancient DNA also suggests early migrations from North Africa into Iberia.
    -4 x L3 mtdna sequences from Chalcolithic sites in Valencia;
    -2 x L1b1 mtdna sequences from Nerja caves (Megalithic site) in Andalusia;
    -3 x L2 mtdna sequences from Neolithic site in Navarra (Basque Country);

    Plus populations in Northern Spain and Basque Country which were unaffected by the Moors harbour E-M81 Y DNA and U6 or L mtdna types (all typical of Berbers) at notable frequencies.

    Other evidence:-

    -Ceramics from Neolithic sites in Oran, Eastern Rif and Andalusia bear very strong similarities with each other.
    -There are also strong similarities among lithic industries from early Neolithic sites in Portugal, Andalusia, and Maghreb.
    -Straighteners made on human bone are found in Neolithic sites in Andalusia and Maghreb.
    -Use of a large variety of plant species and many domesticated animals in both regions, as opposed to the more restricted and specialised cereal use in other regions of Europe in early Neolithic.
    -African T1 haplogroup in early Neolithic cattle sample from southern Iberia [and also in later Roman and Medieval samples - prior to the Moors].

    Also, a quick look at a major HLA haplotype of North African origin in Iberia shows highest frequencies in regions with strongest Moorish influence, but the same haplotypes can also be found at notable yet lower frequencies in those areas unaffected (or affected very little) by the Moors: Pas Valley; Gipuzkoa Basques; Arratia Valley Basques; North Cabuerniga; North Cantabria. These haplotypes then spread northwards to Ireland and Western Britain, reaching as far north as Orkney [Megalithic culture?]

    But of course these are also the areas least affected by previous empires/trading cultures. The Romans clearly didn’t assimilate the Basques, and the Phoenician/Punic presence is found in most places in Spain but not in the Basque country. Most of what is being adduced as cultural or historical supporting evidence for a solely Islamic-conquest-mediated genetic presence here is not being well thought through.

    Read More
  26. The Botigue et al paper says: “We used variance in ancestry proportions across individuals estimated with ADMIXTURE to infer effective admixture times, i.e., the times required to achieve the observed variance in the population GIVEN A SINGLE GENE FLOW EVENT in a randomly mating population[..]”

    So the authors of the paper, and Razib make the assumption that it was a single pulse migration model. In which case the longer tract lengths suggest that Moorish admixture sounds likely.

    However what about if there were large numbers of small migrations to various parts of Iberia over thousands or tens of thousands of years, or small numbers of larger early migrations, &/or some founder effects and drift?

    I don’t doubt that we are seeing some effects of Moorish admixture, but how sure can we be that North African affinity is all due to this? Maybe without the Moorish contribution to Iberia we would still be seeing Basque levels of North African contribution in these ADMIXTURE results.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    So the authors of the paper, and Razib make the assumption that it was a single pulse migration model. In which case the longer tract lengths suggest that Moorish admixture sounds likely.

    neither the authors, or me, are morons. that's why i linked to and commented on a paper which models continuous admixture. rather, the authors, and me, know that very long blocks to the extent you see in this paper indicate at least a large recent admixture event. probably they are estimating too recent, but not an order of magnitude.

  27. @Chris Davies
    The Botigue et al paper says: "We used variance in ancestry proportions across individuals estimated with ADMIXTURE to infer effective admixture times, i.e., the times required to achieve the observed variance in the population GIVEN A SINGLE GENE FLOW EVENT in a randomly mating population[..]"

    So the authors of the paper, and Razib make the assumption that it was a single pulse migration model. In which case the longer tract lengths suggest that Moorish admixture sounds likely.

    However what about if there were large numbers of small migrations to various parts of Iberia over thousands or tens of thousands of years, or small numbers of larger early migrations, &/or some founder effects and drift?

    I don't doubt that we are seeing some effects of Moorish admixture, but how sure can we be that North African affinity is all due to this? Maybe without the Moorish contribution to Iberia we would still be seeing Basque levels of North African contribution in these ADMIXTURE results.

    So the authors of the paper, and Razib make the assumption that it was a single pulse migration model. In which case the longer tract lengths suggest that Moorish admixture sounds likely.

    neither the authors, or me, are morons. that’s why i linked to and commented on a paper which models continuous admixture. rather, the authors, and me, know that very long blocks to the extent you see in this paper indicate at least a large recent admixture event. probably they are estimating too recent, but not an order of magnitude.

    Read More
  28. TWS says:

    Just so I am understanding the percentages, 5 to 14% of Spaniards have @ 1% or greater North African ancestry?

    Read More
  29. Hibernian says:
    @Jefferson
    The Moor invasion would explain why you get Southern Europeans who look like The Turturro Brothers, Jim Croce, Rafael Nadal, Antonio Banderas, Tony Danza, Tom Savini, Javier Bardem, and Cristiano Ronaldo for example.

    My cousin’s wife who is Italian looks like the average Hispanic woman. All of the European People of Color I ever met were Italian or Greek except for one Romanian woman who is a professional civil engineer and a semi-professional opera singer.

    Read More
  30. It would make perfect to find L3f lineages (miniscule enough) due to the various groups inhabiting the Peninsula over 500 years. Taureg and other blue robed peoples of Mali, Mauritania, etc through the conquest and their offspring who stayed, intermarried into the local population over time and that imprint is seen through the testing despite there being a small sample size.

    Though most were in the Meseta Central and south, it makes sense that those escaping the various purges looked to areas where they could hide, or seejk the safety of those who would provide shelter and a secure future. They often merged into the general population.
    There were even records of Yugoslavian Muslim dynasties imbedded into the various Spanish Muslim groups escaping the jihad of their native lands!

    Read More
  31. “Moor” is so vague a descritive that it only muddies the breath of North African peoples (Tamazigh) , Arabs (from the Peninsula as opposed to the Islamized North Africans of various clans/tribes) and even West African groups (Taureg and others). I am guessing that where there is a concentration of peoples of another affiliation who settled their new homeland and adoped languegae, and cultural mores), the aforementioned is what we see. Just as in the Northern climes (italy and Spain) there are remants of “Germanic” groups (surnames and their country affiliation)
    within the borders of neighbouring states.

    Read More
  32. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Razib Khan
    you're wrong

    -blocks are too long. it was recent

    -second, just because the admixture is NOW in place X, does not mean it was always in place X. e.g., the "no-man's land" now has lots of people. they came from elsewhere.

    I’m from Galicia, and people usually forget to look into our historical documentation, which reveals the presence of “Moor” and “Ethiopian” slaves working as artisans, domestic serfs, or as farmers in the lands of counts and richmen -and even in the dependencies of Christian monasteries- from the 9th century to the 13th century. Many of these people – who were sometimes captured in military campaigns in the south (as stated in royal charters which granted 10/20/5o captured serfs of both genders to this monastery or that Cathedral) but many other times they had been simply bought and brought here- would acquire their freedom in just one or two generations, after baptising and taking local names and/or marrying a local man/woman (and having children). In particular, saint Rudesind -who was extremely rich for the time and place- freed his family’s maid Muzalha in the 943 CE, giving her also a important number of properties.

    Of course, documentation also show some serfs preferred to flee to the south.

    Some references, in Spanish, in the pages 100-108 here: http://consellodacultura.gal/mediateca/extras/xenetica.pdf. I can give further (but not exhaustive) references and examples, if someone is really interested.

    PS: Of course, also Galician and northern slaves were found in medieval Al-Andalus, so there was a two way gene flow.

    Read More
  33. Paul S says:

    If the penalty in Islam for apostasy is death and Muslims were kicked out by 1500, wouldn’t you think the admixture took place before Islam?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    never enforceable in xtian lands. if this is not obvious to you you are kind of stupid. ergo....
  34. @Paul S
    If the penalty in Islam for apostasy is death and Muslims were kicked out by 1500, wouldn't you think the admixture took place before Islam?

    never enforceable in xtian lands. if this is not obvious to you you are kind of stupid. ergo….

    Read More
  35. Drac says:

    The Botigue et al. paper is a sloppy piece, certainly not “the best survey”. Even the authors themselves in several statements they’ve made to the press are not in agreement as to their claims and beliefs. For example, Bustamante seems to think that North African admixture in southern Europe, or at least in Iberia, is likely from the Middle Ages, while Comas thinks that it is only about 300 years old. Moorjani, whose paper on sub-Saharan African DNA in Europe they basically criticized, after reading their claims started suggesting that this whole “African DNA” thing in southern Europe might have to do with the Romans and that this should be further looked into. Go figure.

    The paper’s main claims have also been contradicted by Shriner et al. 2014 (they used three separate Spanish samples, two of them non-Basque, and did not find any significant connection to North Africans in any; the only European population they sampled that had any significant North African DNA were the Sardinians at 6.1%) and by Lazaridis et al. 2013, which actually bothered to estimate a time-frame for the “African” DNA they found in their Spanish sample, all of which (including the small sub-Saharan African) was estimated to be from anywhere as a few centuries to a few thousand years before Islam even existed. That the African DNA found in Iberia is very likely due to events quite older than medieval or Early Modern times had already occurred to several geneticists years before more recent autosomal studies simply by looking at the distribution of African haplogroups within Iberia, which do not correspond very well to historical events.

    Read More

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to This Comment Thread via RSS Subscribe to All Razib Khan Comments via RSS
PastClassics
Confederate Flag Day, State Capitol, Raleigh, N.C. -- March 3, 2007
The major media overlooked Communist spies and Madoff’s fraud. What are they missing today?
Are elite university admissions based on meritocracy and diversity as claimed?
The “war hero” candidate buried information about POWs left behind in Vietnam.
The evidence is clear — but often ignored