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553x457xchina-labeled.gif.pagespeed.ic.FPOfoCReDL I was having a discussion on Twitter with Jessica Chong about the nature of Chinese genetic variation. There’s been a fair amount of work on it. But, I have the 1000 Genomes data, in addition to others, and wanted to place them in their proper context myself. First, I did a preliminary PCA, and it was clear that the 1000 Genomes Northern Chinese (CHB) had a lot of Southern Chinese, and the Southern Chinese (CHS) were two distinct clusters (CHB was collected at a university). Looking up the provenance of these samples, it turns out that CHS were collected in Hunan and Fujian. So from these probably corresponded to two clusters I found in the data.

In History and Geography of Human Genes L. L. Cavalli-Sforza reported that Southern Chinese formed a clade with Southeast Asians, while Northern Chinese formed one with Northeast Chinese. Genome-wide results don’t seem to support this inference. The Han do exhibit north-south structure. But, they’re not that diverse for more than one billion individuals (Fst lower than Intra-European). As observed in whole genome sequence analyses the Han Chinese have undergone massive demographic expansion over the past 5,000 years.

I decided to run TreeMix to explore this issue further. I was prompted by the observation that North and South Chinese often show gene flow from northern and southern East Asian ethnic groups. I pushed the data set’s number of migrations to 10. This is high, I wouldn’t normally do this, but I wanted to see if there was any consistent gene flow to Han Chinese, even if it wasn’t one of the marrow edges. The results are below in the plots.

This what I can say:

1) The North Chinese have a faint migration edge from nonspecific northern Asians. Probably this is a composite signal of the past few thousand years. Or, they’re an old signal of the absorption of groups from antiquity such as the Rong and Di.

2) The Southern Chinese do have closer affinities to southeast Asian groups and ethnic minorities in the south. The group I labeled “South_China2″ is more Southeast Asian in affinity than “South_China.” These are probably Hunanesse and Fuijianese respectively. I drew these conclusions from the fact that the “South_China” group is often near a node close to the She minority, which is present in Fuijian. In contrast, the “South_China2″ cluster is often near the Tuija group, which is present in Hunan.

3) Though the North and South Chinese groups are placed on different branches of the graph in these trees note the strong migration edge, especially into the Fuijian cluster. They’re genetically not that far apart. Observe that on the PCA the southern groups seem between Southeast Asians proper, and Northern Chinese.

4) The Yakut are donors to lots of groups in North China. I’m pretty sure that this is a signal of the Turkic expansions, which the Yakut have affinities too because they’re Turkic.

5) Many of the native ethnic groups of China proper don’t seem to be that different than Han Chinese. In fact, they resemble Han in their own region. This might be gene flow, or, it might just be that the Han for whatever reason were the demographic winners over the last 4,000 years in China proper and marginalized the other groups.

 

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• Category: Race/Ethnicity, Science • Tags: China 
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  1. Chinese from the southeastern coast have historically done very well on the imperial exams and mercantile activities. Do you think that there could’ve been especially strong selective pressure in that region of the country?

    Read More
    • Replies: @CaoMengDe
    Southeastern coast of China covers a lot of ground.

    There is a BIG difference between Fujian which is hilly and has poor soil which historically lead to out-migration vs fertile Lower Yangtze Delta which span Southern Jiangsu and Northern Zhejiang.

    For last thousand years, most developed region is Lower Yangtze Delta which has the most productive rice agriculture. Not surprisingly this region also produced most literati

    According to Kenneth Pomeranz who did extensive study of Lower Yangtze Delta region, the population of Lower Yangtze Delta account for 40% of Chinese population under early Qing empire. However, as the population exploded under the Qing, population of Lower Yangtze Delta stay constant, as growth was elsewhere.

    The reason? Very poor can't afford wives, instead they die without heir and get replaced by downward mobile people from next social class up.

    But historically poor Fujian and Southern Zhejiang (Wenzhou region) that produced large scale out-migration to Taiwan, Southeast Asia and beyond, recently have became more commercially developed because of all the oversea connections. Wenzhou people are becoming synonymous with Nouveau Riche
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  2. So what’s the percentage of Dai/Viet-ish admixture in Southern Chinese?

    Samples from Taiwan would be interesting though; I’d like to see how much indigenous admixture the pre-1949 Taiwanese have.

    One of the great mysteries of HBD is why are Southern Chinese so smart, given that the native Southern groups that the migrating Han admixed with are fairly low performing. So either there was very fast selection post-admixture, or they aren’t that admixed at all. But Taiwanese only admixed after the 17th century! And they’re as high IQ as any other NE Asians. And they sure look admixed to my naked eye.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rick
    Or the most obvious. The measured smartness is not totally genetic.
    , @CaoMengDe
    Razib has posted charts in his previous blog:

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-genetic-structure-of-east-asians/

    Dai and Vietnamese charts look quite similar.

    It's not suprising Miao of China would look similar to Southern Han in the charts, considering geographic proximity (esp assuming that Southern Han sample is from Hunan)

    Again I wonder how specific region of China would compare, for example, Cantonese speaker vs Vietnamese. When I first came to United States, I noticed that Cantonese students from Chinatown have very distinct look (not due to American diet, since most of them are new arrivals) which in my mind I attributed to Southeast Asian look. Most of early Cantonese immigrants to United States actually come from three counties around Taishan from Pearl River Delta.


    I know survey in China has found that people from Guangdong has mitochondrial DNA that cluster with neighboring Southeast Asian (Vietnam for example) matrilineage but Y chromosome profile similar to Han Chinese of Central Plains which suggest male mediated migration. But I have not seen an autosomal comparison.

    Back in DEC 2009 there was an article

    "Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation"

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2790583/


    Dienekes' blog posted two pictures that shows clearly the north-south cline of genetic variation in China

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/Sw5CYq44ikI/AAAAAAAACDY/ksq5kfaDQN8/s1600/chen.png

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/Sw5CYq44ikI/AAAAAAAACDY/ksq5kfaDQN8/s1600/chen.png


    You can see that Cantonese speaker is relatively more removed from other Chinese.

    Among speakers of three major dialect of Guangdong, their relation to Hunanese (Mao country) from order of more similar to less is:

    GuangDong-Teochew, GuangDong-Hakka, GuangDong-Cantonese

  3. @spandrell
    So what's the percentage of Dai/Viet-ish admixture in Southern Chinese?

    Samples from Taiwan would be interesting though; I'd like to see how much indigenous admixture the pre-1949 Taiwanese have.

    One of the great mysteries of HBD is why are Southern Chinese so smart, given that the native Southern groups that the migrating Han admixed with are fairly low performing. So either there was very fast selection post-admixture, or they aren't that admixed at all. But Taiwanese only admixed after the 17th century! And they're as high IQ as any other NE Asians. And they sure look admixed to my naked eye.

    Or the most obvious. The measured smartness is not totally genetic.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CaoMengDe

    Or the most obvious. The measured smartness is not totally genetic.
     
    Haha, Indeed!
  4. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Just a comment about the TreeMix graphs: I don’t know how your other readers find them, but my attitude towards them is that posting all 10 of them is not so informative. I usually look at the first couple, notice that the general structure is usually more or less the same, and then move on. But I always have the nagging feeling that I’m missing something by not looking at all them. It’s especially disruptive when the graphs appear in the middle of a blog post.

    It would be more helpful to me if (i) if they really all look the same, you post a representative one (ii) if the outputs don’t show unanimity, then you show the readers examples.

    Just some context: I read your blog for general culture, and have not read the TreeMix paper, but I could if I wanted and I have a pretty good idea that the reason there is more than one tree because it’s hard to numerically run a gradient flow in a non-linear space, so a stochastic process is used to approximate it (I don’t care about the details, and that’s why I will probably never read the paper). I can imagine editorial reasons why having more than one can help (e.g. some of your readers might be more technically involved, or you don’t want the ones that are innumerate to start reifying them …), but as they seem to have become your favourite tool, I thought it might help to give my perspective.

    Read More
  5. @JohnnyWalker123
    Chinese from the southeastern coast have historically done very well on the imperial exams and mercantile activities. Do you think that there could've been especially strong selective pressure in that region of the country?

    Southeastern coast of China covers a lot of ground.

    There is a BIG difference between Fujian which is hilly and has poor soil which historically lead to out-migration vs fertile Lower Yangtze Delta which span Southern Jiangsu and Northern Zhejiang.

    For last thousand years, most developed region is Lower Yangtze Delta which has the most productive rice agriculture. Not surprisingly this region also produced most literati

    According to Kenneth Pomeranz who did extensive study of Lower Yangtze Delta region, the population of Lower Yangtze Delta account for 40% of Chinese population under early Qing empire. However, as the population exploded under the Qing, population of Lower Yangtze Delta stay constant, as growth was elsewhere.

    The reason? Very poor can’t afford wives, instead they die without heir and get replaced by downward mobile people from next social class up.

    But historically poor Fujian and Southern Zhejiang (Wenzhou region) that produced large scale out-migration to Taiwan, Southeast Asia and beyond, recently have became more commercially developed because of all the oversea connections. Wenzhou people are becoming synonymous with Nouveau Riche

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rdorje Dpalbzang
    In France, Wenzhou immigrants' children do much worse in schools than the Indochinese Teochew, but in this case environment factors are quite non-trivial.
  6. What is North China? What is South China?

    I was taught in Chinese primary school that the dividing line is the Qinling Mountains and Huai River Valleys which dovetail neatly what every Sichuanese school boy already know: that WE are the South, everybody North of us is a Northerner.

    My knowledge of Geography was severely challenged when I met people from Hong Kong. At Caltech, my Hong Kong classmate would introduce me as a Northerner, and call me a big Northern Barbarian in jest. I was initially like, WTF? Then I realized that to Cantonese people, everybody is a Northern Chinese!

    Later I briefly dated a girl whose parents are from Henan but grew up in Inner Mongolia. She refer to her family as from the South. Again, I am like WTF? South of what?

    “South of Yellow River” She replied.

    “Then, what is North?” I demanded

    “Inner Mongolia is the North” She replied.

    THAT’s when I realize “North/South” is all relative depending on your point of reference.

    Anecdote aside, there is a BIG regional difference across “Chinese South”

    On the coastline, Lower Yangtze Delta has a very different population history vs Fujian vs Guangdong.

    Coast also very different from that of interior of Middle Reaches of Yangtze like Hubei and Hunan.

    Not to mention pocket of isolation that is Sichuan basin in the west and myriads of Plateau and Jungles of Yunnan and Guizhou.

    IMHO, Not a single place is representative of the “Chinese South”

    To threw more wrenches into the works, there have been massive population movement across China in recent history. In the Communists’ sweep into victory, more than a million man strong People’s Liberation Army Fourth Field Army burst out of Manchuria, swept across large swath of China all the way down to Hainan island on the South China Seas. Even today in Guangzhou(Canton), military compounds are primary colonies of Mandarin speaking Manchurian families.

    But even more profound change was after Deng’s Reform era, hundreds of millions of migrant workers migrated out of interior to search work on the Chinese coast.

    When I went to my Dad’s hometown, a small city (by Chinese standards) in Zhejiang in 2010 which had grown tremendously since my last visit in 2001, I was surprise to hear Sichuan dialect spoken everywhere, esp by waitress and shopkeepers, and my cousin even married a Sichuan girl.

    In my Dad’s generation, he was the rare one who grew up on the Coast, went to University in other end of China in Xian in the shadow of Loess Plateau; Got sent to work in Tibetan Plateau, fall in love and settled in Sichuan. But today’s China, it’s becoming the norm rather than exception to work and settle outside the land of your ancestors.

    In Guangxi where majorities of Zhuang people (Tai speakers) are from, intermarriage is very common because Zhuang has by and large heavily Sinicized. My buddy from high school is from Guangxi and has a Zhuang father. Here in US, he is just Chinese.

    Read More
  7. @Rick
    Or the most obvious. The measured smartness is not totally genetic.

    Or the most obvious. The measured smartness is not totally genetic.

    Haha, Indeed!

    Read More
  8. @spandrell
    So what's the percentage of Dai/Viet-ish admixture in Southern Chinese?

    Samples from Taiwan would be interesting though; I'd like to see how much indigenous admixture the pre-1949 Taiwanese have.

    One of the great mysteries of HBD is why are Southern Chinese so smart, given that the native Southern groups that the migrating Han admixed with are fairly low performing. So either there was very fast selection post-admixture, or they aren't that admixed at all. But Taiwanese only admixed after the 17th century! And they're as high IQ as any other NE Asians. And they sure look admixed to my naked eye.

    Razib has posted charts in his previous blog:

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-genetic-structure-of-east-asians/

    Dai and Vietnamese charts look quite similar.

    It’s not suprising Miao of China would look similar to Southern Han in the charts, considering geographic proximity (esp assuming that Southern Han sample is from Hunan)

    Again I wonder how specific region of China would compare, for example, Cantonese speaker vs Vietnamese. When I first came to United States, I noticed that Cantonese students from Chinatown have very distinct look (not due to American diet, since most of them are new arrivals) which in my mind I attributed to Southeast Asian look. Most of early Cantonese immigrants to United States actually come from three counties around Taishan from Pearl River Delta.

    I know survey in China has found that people from Guangdong has mitochondrial DNA that cluster with neighboring Southeast Asian (Vietnam for example) matrilineage but Y chromosome profile similar to Han Chinese of Central Plains which suggest male mediated migration. But I have not seen an autosomal comparison.

    Back in DEC 2009 there was an article

    “Genetic Structure of the Han Chinese Population Revealed by Genome-wide SNP Variation”

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2790583/

    Dienekes’ blog posted two pictures that shows clearly the north-south cline of genetic variation in China

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/Sw5CYq44ikI/AAAAAAAACDY/ksq5kfaDQN8/s1600/chen.png

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/Sw5CYq44ikI/AAAAAAAACDY/ksq5kfaDQN8/s1600/chen.png

    You can see that Cantonese speaker is relatively more removed from other Chinese.

    Among speakers of three major dialect of Guangdong, their relation to Hunanese (Mao country) from order of more similar to less is:

    GuangDong-Teochew, GuangDong-Hakka, GuangDong-Cantonese

    Read More
  9. CaoMengDe has made some very good points above.

    South Chinese = North Chinese + Vietnamese/Dai“?????

    Really? ROFL If some data point to this way, then the data are wrong.

    Even though there are many definations of ‘South Chinese’ and “north Chinese”, for the sake of simplicity we traditionally assume the Yangzi river is the line. Some regions right next to Yangzi could be called South as well even if they are situated in the North of the river.

    South Chinese by and large are actually the North Chinese, with no blood mixture and “pure”.

    This has sth to do with China’s history. To avoid northern nomad tribes, countless big waves of Northern Chinese migrations took place in the span of thousands of years to the warmer, safer, and economically mode developed South China (close to and South of Yangzi). These people conquered the South and largely killed off the indigenious tribes there similar to the way Anglos killed off the American Indians. Yes, there are some “minorities”today, but they are 1) tiny in population and 2) heavily sinicised (except the far south regions bordering to Vietnam and Laos) and 3) highly localised to some pockets.

    Let Panda show you how this happened with formulas as per the title of the entry:

    – Northern Vietnamese traditionally = “Northern Chinese + SE Asian fringes”

    (Northern Vietnam was originally organised and set up as a county of Qin Dynasty by a Northen Han Chinese general and his soldiers. Most of them stayed in the region ever since and interbred with the local SE Asian women, becoming a large part of so-called “Northern Vietnamese” today. In Northern Vietnam today there are still some tribes such as “Hua” tribe of some 200,000 people or so. These people are ethnic Han Chinese – then one can have a clue on why Vietnam could do so well from time to time in PISA Maths and IMO etc)

    – Dai: a tiny minority who is heavily sinicised and geographically very centralised to a small region only.

    So we have:

    — South Chinese = North Chinese + “Northern Chinese + SE Asian fringes”,

    — so South Chinese =North Chinese + fringes

    –therefore, South Chinese by and large = North Chinese ==> closest to the truth on the ground.

    In today’s China, many nominal North Chinese (e.g. Panda – a native Beijinger) can trace their ancestry to the South ( both Panda’s paternal and maternal lines are from lower yangzi delta); while most nominal South Chinese (except some far south regions next to Vietnam, Laos , Cambodia) , as explained above, can trace their ancestry to North Chinese migrants in the distant past. Majority of the South Chinese today could be argued as “unmixed” and as “pure”as the North Chinese.

    Above point is very important, because it could offer a critical clue to solve the HBD “puzzle” that “why South Chinese seem to be smarter than the North Chinese”. As aforementioned, this is mainly due to far greater sense of safety, better weather hence better economical prospects in the South that lured the large migrantions of the North Chinese (likely more of the right side of the IQ bell curve).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    don't be patronizing or i'll ban you. i know everything you have told me, as would be clear if you browsed the type of history books i read:

    https://www.goodreads.com/review/list/18982209-razib-khan?shelf=history
  10. @ Razib

    Another issue: there is no “Vietnamese” as you called.

    For the entire history even till today, politically, geographically and racially speaking, the region of today’s Vietnam has always been divided into very different 2 parts:

    –the Northern Vietnam(North Vietnamese), which is much more sinicised, and

    – the Southern Vietnam(South Vietnamese), which is much more SE Asian.

    During the Vietnam War, Chairman Mao issued a pre-warning to the US: never ever pass your troops to the North of “the 17th parallel” and the US never did. One of the reasons was perhaps that Mao deemed the Vietnamese lived north of that line are ” somwhat half-Chinese, racially speaking” from POV of tradition than the ones in the South of it.

    Perhaps you could help to verify this point via data as well.

    Read More
  11. @PandaAtWar
    CaoMengDe has made some very good points above.

    "South Chinese = North Chinese + Vietnamese/Dai"?????

    Really? ROFL If some data point to this way, then the data are wrong.

    Even though there are many definations of 'South Chinese' and "north Chinese", for the sake of simplicity we traditionally assume the Yangzi river is the line. Some regions right next to Yangzi could be called South as well even if they are situated in the North of the river.

    South Chinese by and large are actually the North Chinese, with no blood mixture and "pure".

    This has sth to do with China's history. To avoid northern nomad tribes, countless big waves of Northern Chinese migrations took place in the span of thousands of years to the warmer, safer, and economically mode developed South China (close to and South of Yangzi). These people conquered the South and largely killed off the indigenious tribes there similar to the way Anglos killed off the American Indians. Yes, there are some "minorities"today, but they are 1) tiny in population and 2) heavily sinicised (except the far south regions bordering to Vietnam and Laos) and 3) highly localised to some pockets.

    Let Panda show you how this happened with formulas as per the title of the entry:

    -- Northern Vietnamese traditionally = "Northern Chinese + SE Asian fringes"

    (Northern Vietnam was originally organised and set up as a county of Qin Dynasty by a Northen Han Chinese general and his soldiers. Most of them stayed in the region ever since and interbred with the local SE Asian women, becoming a large part of so-called "Northern Vietnamese" today. In Northern Vietnam today there are still some tribes such as "Hua" tribe of some 200,000 people or so. These people are ethnic Han Chinese - then one can have a clue on why Vietnam could do so well from time to time in PISA Maths and IMO etc)

    -- Dai: a tiny minority who is heavily sinicised and geographically very centralised to a small region only.

    So we have:

    -- South Chinese = North Chinese + "Northern Chinese + SE Asian fringes",

    -- so South Chinese =North Chinese + fringes

    --therefore, South Chinese by and large = North Chinese ==> closest to the truth on the ground.

    In today's China, many nominal North Chinese (e.g. Panda - a native Beijinger) can trace their ancestry to the South ( both Panda's paternal and maternal lines are from lower yangzi delta); while most nominal South Chinese (except some far south regions next to Vietnam, Laos , Cambodia) , as explained above, can trace their ancestry to North Chinese migrants in the distant past. Majority of the South Chinese today could be argued as "unmixed" and as "pure"as the North Chinese.

    Above point is very important, because it could offer a critical clue to solve the HBD "puzzle" that "why South Chinese seem to be smarter than the North Chinese". As aforementioned, this is mainly due to far greater sense of safety, better weather hence better economical prospects in the South that lured the large migrantions of the North Chinese (likely more of the right side of the IQ bell curve).

    don’t be patronizing or i’ll ban you. i know everything you have told me, as would be clear if you browsed the type of history books i read:

    https://www.goodreads.com/review/list/18982209-razib-khan?shelf=history

    Read More
    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    It's good that you've read many books. Panda is glad for you. However, it's sad to see you respond in such a mean way.

    Guess how many books (in Chinese and other4 Euroepan lanuages) that Panda read in the last 40 years?

    The point is that there is always something that you don't know, yet, or, the authors of the books that you read think they "know" and in reality they don't, or don't know it precisely. That is the very purpose of any forum discussion, right?

    Panda feels sorry if some of the tones appear light-heartedly "patronising" to you at some point. Then raise the issues to Panda and Panda will pay more attention and correct them. But the suggestion is that it might be a good idea not to call for banning people too often(this is the not the 1st time Panda saw you saying banning people here), because it would make no difference from MSM comment section - very aganist the spirit of this site, don't you think so? If you think that Panda's wasting the precious time writng such long comments here is for the sake of "patronising you", then think again.

  12. @Razib Khan
    don't be patronizing or i'll ban you. i know everything you have told me, as would be clear if you browsed the type of history books i read:

    https://www.goodreads.com/review/list/18982209-razib-khan?shelf=history

    It’s good that you’ve read many books. Panda is glad for you. However, it’s sad to see you respond in such a mean way.

    Guess how many books (in Chinese and other4 Euroepan lanuages) that Panda read in the last 40 years?

    The point is that there is always something that you don’t know, yet, or, the authors of the books that you read think they “know” and in reality they don’t, or don’t know it precisely. That is the very purpose of any forum discussion, right?

    Panda feels sorry if some of the tones appear light-heartedly “patronising” to you at some point. Then raise the issues to Panda and Panda will pay more attention and correct them. But the suggestion is that it might be a good idea not to call for banning people too often(this is the not the 1st time Panda saw you saying banning people here), because it would make no difference from MSM comment section – very aganist the spirit of this site, don’t you think so? If you think that Panda’s wasting the precious time writng such long comments here is for the sake of “patronising you”, then think again.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    very aganist the spirit of this site,

    barring Ron Unz I DETERMINE THE SPIRIT OF THIS SITE. as for banning people, on occasion an innocent must die so that appropriate fear is inculcated.

    if you tell me things that are interesting and new to me, i am rather indulgent. if you don't, then, i am not indulgent. this comment section is not here so you can smell your own mental farts. you can infer from that where your comments stand.

    that is the last exchange we have on this specific topic.

  13. @PandaAtWar
    It's good that you've read many books. Panda is glad for you. However, it's sad to see you respond in such a mean way.

    Guess how many books (in Chinese and other4 Euroepan lanuages) that Panda read in the last 40 years?

    The point is that there is always something that you don't know, yet, or, the authors of the books that you read think they "know" and in reality they don't, or don't know it precisely. That is the very purpose of any forum discussion, right?

    Panda feels sorry if some of the tones appear light-heartedly "patronising" to you at some point. Then raise the issues to Panda and Panda will pay more attention and correct them. But the suggestion is that it might be a good idea not to call for banning people too often(this is the not the 1st time Panda saw you saying banning people here), because it would make no difference from MSM comment section - very aganist the spirit of this site, don't you think so? If you think that Panda's wasting the precious time writng such long comments here is for the sake of "patronising you", then think again.

    very aganist the spirit of this site,

    barring Ron Unz I DETERMINE THE SPIRIT OF THIS SITE. as for banning people, on occasion an innocent must die so that appropriate fear is inculcated.

    if you tell me things that are interesting and new to me, i am rather indulgent. if you don’t, then, i am not indulgent. this comment section is not here so you can smell your own mental farts. you can infer from that where your comments stand.

    that is the last exchange we have on this specific topic.

    Read More
  14. “Many of the native ethnic groups of China proper don’t seem to be that different than Han Chinese”.

    Possibly because they are effectively ‘Han Chinese’ even if they speak some language other than Mandarin. Several Y-DNA O3 haplogroups have had a huge expansion during the last few thousand years.

    “The Southern Chinese do have closer affinities to southeast Asian groups and ethnic minorities in the south. The group I labeled ‘South_China2′ is more Southeast Asian in affinity than ‘South_China’”.

    Resumably the ‘South China 2′ groups is pre-Han while the other represents the more recent movements south.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CaoMengDe

    Possibly because they are effectively ‘Han Chinese’ even if they speak some language other than Mandarin.
     
    You can't seriously mean Han=O3 because it's simply not true. Otherwise you will get entire villages of "Hans" South of Himalayas in Nepal . Not even sure O3 can be directly linked to Proto-Sino-Tibetan.

    Concept of "Hua-Xia" or Proto-Han was only developed during Zhou which conquered Shang 3000 years ago.

    10% of Han male in many parts of China are Y-DNA Q1a1 and they admix into "Chinese" 3000 years ago right around that time frame. So you can even say Q1a1 was a founding member of the Han patrilineage

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22604/abstract

    Not to mention early rice farming culture of Liangzhu in the Lower Yangtze Delta which is overwhelmingly Y-DNA O1. Today among Hans of Yangtze Delta, O1 still a significant presence.

    Rather than saying South Chinese is North Chinese + Dai/Viet, IMHO, more accurate description would be modern populations of Han, Dai and Vietnamese (Kinh) are composite of many layers of ancient East Asian population. Obviously there are many overlaps among their ancestral populations.
  15. @terryt
    "Many of the native ethnic groups of China proper don’t seem to be that different than Han Chinese".

    Possibly because they are effectively 'Han Chinese' even if they speak some language other than Mandarin. Several Y-DNA O3 haplogroups have had a huge expansion during the last few thousand years.

    "The Southern Chinese do have closer affinities to southeast Asian groups and ethnic minorities in the south. The group I labeled 'South_China2' is more Southeast Asian in affinity than 'South_China'".

    Resumably the 'South China 2' groups is pre-Han while the other represents the more recent movements south.

    Possibly because they are effectively ‘Han Chinese’ even if they speak some language other than Mandarin.

    You can’t seriously mean Han=O3 because it’s simply not true. Otherwise you will get entire villages of “Hans” South of Himalayas in Nepal . Not even sure O3 can be directly linked to Proto-Sino-Tibetan.

    Concept of “Hua-Xia” or Proto-Han was only developed during Zhou which conquered Shang 3000 years ago.

    10% of Han male in many parts of China are Y-DNA Q1a1 and they admix into “Chinese” 3000 years ago right around that time frame. So you can even say Q1a1 was a founding member of the Han patrilineage

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22604/abstract

    Not to mention early rice farming culture of Liangzhu in the Lower Yangtze Delta which is overwhelmingly Y-DNA O1. Today among Hans of Yangtze Delta, O1 still a significant presence.

    Rather than saying South Chinese is North Chinese + Dai/Viet, IMHO, more accurate description would be modern populations of Han, Dai and Vietnamese (Kinh) are composite of many layers of ancient East Asian population. Obviously there are many overlaps among their ancestral populations.

    Read More
    • Replies: @terryt
    "Not to mention early rice farming culture of Liangzhu in the Lower Yangtze Delta which is overwhelmingly Y-DNA O1. Today among Hans of Yangtze Delta, O1 still a significant presence".

    As a rule of thumb it seems O2 spread with the Austro-Asiatic language, O1 spread with Tai-Kadai/Austronesian and O3, especially O3a2, with Sino-Tibetan. They spread south in that order, carrying varying amounts of the Mongoloid phenotype. Obviously they were not the only haplotypes involved in each expansion. As you say: 'So you can even say Q1a1 was a founding member of the Han patrilineage' Presumably the Tai-Kadai/Austronesian people originated in the Lower Yangtze. O2 in the Three Gorges region and O3 further upstream. I presume you've seen this:

    http://www.comonca.org.cn/LH/Doc/A37.pdf

    The dates correspond to the beginning of the Austronesian expansion from Taiwan, Coincidence? Obviously the Austro-Asiatic expansion was at least a bit more ancient.
  16. @CaoMengDe

    Possibly because they are effectively ‘Han Chinese’ even if they speak some language other than Mandarin.
     
    You can't seriously mean Han=O3 because it's simply not true. Otherwise you will get entire villages of "Hans" South of Himalayas in Nepal . Not even sure O3 can be directly linked to Proto-Sino-Tibetan.

    Concept of "Hua-Xia" or Proto-Han was only developed during Zhou which conquered Shang 3000 years ago.

    10% of Han male in many parts of China are Y-DNA Q1a1 and they admix into "Chinese" 3000 years ago right around that time frame. So you can even say Q1a1 was a founding member of the Han patrilineage

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajhb.22604/abstract

    Not to mention early rice farming culture of Liangzhu in the Lower Yangtze Delta which is overwhelmingly Y-DNA O1. Today among Hans of Yangtze Delta, O1 still a significant presence.

    Rather than saying South Chinese is North Chinese + Dai/Viet, IMHO, more accurate description would be modern populations of Han, Dai and Vietnamese (Kinh) are composite of many layers of ancient East Asian population. Obviously there are many overlaps among their ancestral populations.

    “Not to mention early rice farming culture of Liangzhu in the Lower Yangtze Delta which is overwhelmingly Y-DNA O1. Today among Hans of Yangtze Delta, O1 still a significant presence”.

    As a rule of thumb it seems O2 spread with the Austro-Asiatic language, O1 spread with Tai-Kadai/Austronesian and O3, especially O3a2, with Sino-Tibetan. They spread south in that order, carrying varying amounts of the Mongoloid phenotype. Obviously they were not the only haplotypes involved in each expansion. As you say: ‘So you can even say Q1a1 was a founding member of the Han patrilineage’ Presumably the Tai-Kadai/Austronesian people originated in the Lower Yangtze. O2 in the Three Gorges region and O3 further upstream. I presume you’ve seen this:

    http://www.comonca.org.cn/LH/Doc/A37.pdf

    The dates correspond to the beginning of the Austronesian expansion from Taiwan, Coincidence? Obviously the Austro-Asiatic expansion was at least a bit more ancient.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CaoMengDe
    Yes I have read "Y chromosomes of prehistoric people along the Yangtze River"

    First of all, Daxi is IN the Three Gorges, it's in fact near my hometown of Chongqing. And Daxi is primarily O3 with small percentage of O2, Upstream from Three Gorges is the Sichuan Basin, which is subtropical in climate, still squarely in Southern China.

    If any thing O3 pushed North during metal ages

    Maju had two diagrams that clearly illustrate this:

    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2013/12/ancient-east-asian-y-dna-maps.html

    2nd, We don't know what language was spoken at Liangzhu or Daxi

    The fact the modern population of Dai and Taiwanese Aborigines both has high level of O1 should give you caution because Tai-Kadai and Austronesian are two separate language families

    3rd, it's a bit anachronistic to refer to people as Han BEFORE the Han empire(started in 206BC). Of course, "Chinese people" existed before Han Dynasty, but their self-designation was "Hua-Xia".

    As with successor Han, Hua-Xia is a cultural package.

    For example, during Spring and Autumn period, Southern Kingdom of Chu was regarded as Barbarians and King of Chu declare himself as such. Old Chinese slogan 尊王攘夷; lit. "Revere the King, Expel the Barbarians" explicitly targeted Chu as Barbarians to be ejected from Central Plains. But few hundred years later, by end of Warring State period, Chu Kingdom was squarely inside the Hua-Xia cultural sphere. Great Chinese poet Qu Yuan is a scion of Royal House of Chu.

    Founder of Han Dynasty Liu Bang was himself a former subject of Chu Kingdom.

    Written records emphasized that Chu Kingdom initially arose as confederation of "Three Miao"/ It's quite obvious Miao of China and Southern Han Chinese shared many cultural links such as dragon boat racing.

    Anyway, concept of Hua-Xia or Chineseness develop during Zhou which conquered Shang. Zhou claims descend from mythical Xia, the first dynasty. But Shang oracle bones makes no mention of Xia. From archaeological evidence, it's quite obvious that Shang has higher material culture than early Zhou. Zhou conquest of Shang is more akin to fringe barbarians conquering sedentary civilization.

    In any case, Chinese Neolithic predates the appearance of "Hua-Xia" cultural package by 4000-5000 years!
  17. A little bit of expansion on the above. The Austro-Asiatic O is specifically O2a of course. And I forgot to mention Hmong-Mien O3a2b, leaving Sino-Tibetan O3 as mainly O3a2c. We know form the earlier Razib post that the Austro-Asiatic language was replaced through western island SE Asia by Austronesian, thus leaving many O2a as Austronesian-speaking. In fact Hmong-Mien contains many O2a as well, indicating its expansion is later than that of Austro-Asiatic.

    “Otherwise you will get entire villages of ‘Hans’ South of Himalayas in Nepal”

    By my original statement I meant the southerly expansion consisted of people closely related to what became Han. Genetically they were much the same as modern Han although not necessarily speaking Han languages.

    Just in case you missed it here is the Razib post I mentioned above:

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/conjectures-about-southeast-asian-genetic-history/

    Read More
  18. I had a look on http://www.allelefrequencies.net – of the top ten highest frequency HLA haplotypes in Guangzhou Han in South China [out of 100+ haplotypes], only two appeared to be nodal in either Vietnam [Hanoi Kinh]; or in North China [Shaanxi Han].

    Read More
    • Replies: @CaoMengDe
    That's interesting, I had thought by geographic proximity, Guangzhou Han would be closer to Hanoi Kinh.

    Perhaps Dong Son Bronze culture of Red River valley had such population density that simply swamped whatever genetic contributions by outside intruders.

    I personally can't tell Vietnamese apart but that's probably because most Vietnamese in United States are Sino-Vietnamese who are Teochew speakers originally from Eastern Guangdong.
  19. @Chris Davies
    I had a look on www.allelefrequencies.net - of the top ten highest frequency HLA haplotypes in Guangzhou Han in South China [out of 100+ haplotypes], only two appeared to be nodal in either Vietnam [Hanoi Kinh]; or in North China [Shaanxi Han].

    That’s interesting, I had thought by geographic proximity, Guangzhou Han would be closer to Hanoi Kinh.

    Perhaps Dong Son Bronze culture of Red River valley had such population density that simply swamped whatever genetic contributions by outside intruders.

    I personally can’t tell Vietnamese apart but that’s probably because most Vietnamese in United States are Sino-Vietnamese who are Teochew speakers originally from Eastern Guangdong.

    Read More
  20. The origin of Viet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiyue#Name

    “The modern term “Yue” (Viet) (Chinese: 越 or 粵; pinyin: Yuè; Cantonese Yale: Yuht; Wade–Giles : Yüeh4; Vietnamese: Việt; Zhuang: Vot; Early Middle Chinese: Wuat) comes from Old Chinese *wjat.[3]”

    Viet and Yue have the same Chinese pronunciation.

    The ancient Yue state: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_%28state%29

    “…in the modern provinces of Zhejiang, Shanghai, and Jiangsu.”

    The modern Cantonese still called themselves Yue (Viet):

    “The character “粵” is associated with the southern province of Guangdong. Both the regional dialects of Yue Chinese and the standard form, popularly called “Cantonese”, are spoken in Guangdong, Guangxi, Hong Kong, Macau and in many Cantonese communities around the world.”

    However, the common surnames (hence the paternal yDNA lines) for Southern Chinese are mostly of northern origin from Zhou Dynasty about 3 thousand years ago. Those common surnames of historical times from the Yue and Chu states are now extremely rare.
    The most noted immigration event from the north to the south,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Migration_of_the_eight_clans

    and the eight surnames remain the most common to this day.

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  21. @terryt
    "Not to mention early rice farming culture of Liangzhu in the Lower Yangtze Delta which is overwhelmingly Y-DNA O1. Today among Hans of Yangtze Delta, O1 still a significant presence".

    As a rule of thumb it seems O2 spread with the Austro-Asiatic language, O1 spread with Tai-Kadai/Austronesian and O3, especially O3a2, with Sino-Tibetan. They spread south in that order, carrying varying amounts of the Mongoloid phenotype. Obviously they were not the only haplotypes involved in each expansion. As you say: 'So you can even say Q1a1 was a founding member of the Han patrilineage' Presumably the Tai-Kadai/Austronesian people originated in the Lower Yangtze. O2 in the Three Gorges region and O3 further upstream. I presume you've seen this:

    http://www.comonca.org.cn/LH/Doc/A37.pdf

    The dates correspond to the beginning of the Austronesian expansion from Taiwan, Coincidence? Obviously the Austro-Asiatic expansion was at least a bit more ancient.

    Yes I have read “Y chromosomes of prehistoric people along the Yangtze River”

    First of all, Daxi is IN the Three Gorges, it’s in fact near my hometown of Chongqing. And Daxi is primarily O3 with small percentage of O2, Upstream from Three Gorges is the Sichuan Basin, which is subtropical in climate, still squarely in Southern China.

    If any thing O3 pushed North during metal ages

    Maju had two diagrams that clearly illustrate this:

    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2013/12/ancient-east-asian-y-dna-maps.html

    2nd, We don’t know what language was spoken at Liangzhu or Daxi

    The fact the modern population of Dai and Taiwanese Aborigines both has high level of O1 should give you caution because Tai-Kadai and Austronesian are two separate language families

    3rd, it’s a bit anachronistic to refer to people as Han BEFORE the Han empire(started in 206BC). Of course, “Chinese people” existed before Han Dynasty, but their self-designation was “Hua-Xia”.

    As with successor Han, Hua-Xia is a cultural package.

    For example, during Spring and Autumn period, Southern Kingdom of Chu was regarded as Barbarians and King of Chu declare himself as such. Old Chinese slogan 尊王攘夷; lit. “Revere the King, Expel the Barbarians” explicitly targeted Chu as Barbarians to be ejected from Central Plains. But few hundred years later, by end of Warring State period, Chu Kingdom was squarely inside the Hua-Xia cultural sphere. Great Chinese poet Qu Yuan is a scion of Royal House of Chu.

    Founder of Han Dynasty Liu Bang was himself a former subject of Chu Kingdom.

    Written records emphasized that Chu Kingdom initially arose as confederation of “Three Miao”/ It’s quite obvious Miao of China and Southern Han Chinese shared many cultural links such as dragon boat racing.

    Anyway, concept of Hua-Xia or Chineseness develop during Zhou which conquered Shang. Zhou claims descend from mythical Xia, the first dynasty. But Shang oracle bones makes no mention of Xia. From archaeological evidence, it’s quite obvious that Shang has higher material culture than early Zhou. Zhou conquest of Shang is more akin to fringe barbarians conquering sedentary civilization.

    In any case, Chinese Neolithic predates the appearance of “Hua-Xia” cultural package by 4000-5000 years!

    Read More
    • Replies: @terryt
    "In any case, Chinese Neolithic predates the appearance of 'Hua-Xia' cultural package by 4000-5000 years!"

    Exactly. And it was almost exactly around that time that the physical appearance of the Southeast Asian population began to become 'Mongoloid'.

    "Tai-Kadai and Austronesian are two separate language families"

    First time I've heard that. They are usually considered closely related. And both O1 of course. There have been several papers claiming a relationship. I haven't time to look for them now.

    "If any thing O3 pushed North during metal ages"

    Perhaps so at that late stage but it doesn't really make sense for any time earlier. O3 is the only connection possible to the spread south of the Mongoloid phenotype. Probably with a somewhat lesser contribution from both O1 and O2.

    "Maju had two diagrams that clearly illustrate this"

    Maju is often wrong when it comes to East Asia. And for some reason he is emotionally committed to a southern origin for the whole O clade.

    "And Daxi is primarily O3 with small percentage of O2"

    And Daxi is considered ancestral to Hmong-Mien.

    "still squarely in Southern China".

    Using the Yangtze as any sort of 'boundary' is ridiculous. It has been a major route for several thousand years. People on both banks would be very similar by now. In fact the Chinese are remarkably homogeneous genetically as this post points out. To me that indicates an extensive and reasonably recent major expansion.

    "We don’t know what language was spoken at Liangzhu or Daxi"

    But we can hazard a very good guess.

    " it’s a bit anachronistic to refer to people as Han BEFORE the Han empire"

    True, but what else can we call the population that carried the Mongoloid phenotype south to now dominate much of Southeast Asia? That's what I originally put Han Chinese in quote marks when I wrote: " they are effectively ‘Han Chinese’ even if they speak some language other than Mandarin'.

    "their self-designation was 'Hua-Xia'".

    How much of China did they cover?
  22. @CaoMengDe
    Southeastern coast of China covers a lot of ground.

    There is a BIG difference between Fujian which is hilly and has poor soil which historically lead to out-migration vs fertile Lower Yangtze Delta which span Southern Jiangsu and Northern Zhejiang.

    For last thousand years, most developed region is Lower Yangtze Delta which has the most productive rice agriculture. Not surprisingly this region also produced most literati

    According to Kenneth Pomeranz who did extensive study of Lower Yangtze Delta region, the population of Lower Yangtze Delta account for 40% of Chinese population under early Qing empire. However, as the population exploded under the Qing, population of Lower Yangtze Delta stay constant, as growth was elsewhere.

    The reason? Very poor can't afford wives, instead they die without heir and get replaced by downward mobile people from next social class up.

    But historically poor Fujian and Southern Zhejiang (Wenzhou region) that produced large scale out-migration to Taiwan, Southeast Asia and beyond, recently have became more commercially developed because of all the oversea connections. Wenzhou people are becoming synonymous with Nouveau Riche

    In France, Wenzhou immigrants’ children do much worse in schools than the Indochinese Teochew, but in this case environment factors are quite non-trivial.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CaoMengDe
    Haha, Wenzhou people is known for illiterate or only primary school educated entrepreneurs engaged in business and making cuckoo bucks rather than for educational achievement, hence Nouveau Riche.

    I also made a mistake, it seems that Cantonese speakers still makes the largest portion of Sino-Vietnamese, with Teochew speakers coming in second. It's just that there are so many Teochew restaurants here in Orange County's Little Saigon that I thought Teochew must be majority
    , @dixie
    The Indochinese are from former French colony and the parents most probably are fluent in French and they might have lived in France longer.

    Wenzhou is in Zhejiang province, the smartest natural pop subgroup in China, the average IQ is even higher than those in Shanghai who top the world in OECD PISA test. Most of them are the descendents of the imperial court officials who all migrated to the area after the old capital Loyang was overrun by the invaders.
  23. @Rdorje Dpalbzang
    In France, Wenzhou immigrants' children do much worse in schools than the Indochinese Teochew, but in this case environment factors are quite non-trivial.

    Haha, Wenzhou people is known for illiterate or only primary school educated entrepreneurs engaged in business and making cuckoo bucks rather than for educational achievement, hence Nouveau Riche.

    I also made a mistake, it seems that Cantonese speakers still makes the largest portion of Sino-Vietnamese, with Teochew speakers coming in second. It’s just that there are so many Teochew restaurants here in Orange County’s Little Saigon that I thought Teochew must be majority

    Read More
  24. @CaoMengDe
    Yes I have read "Y chromosomes of prehistoric people along the Yangtze River"

    First of all, Daxi is IN the Three Gorges, it's in fact near my hometown of Chongqing. And Daxi is primarily O3 with small percentage of O2, Upstream from Three Gorges is the Sichuan Basin, which is subtropical in climate, still squarely in Southern China.

    If any thing O3 pushed North during metal ages

    Maju had two diagrams that clearly illustrate this:

    http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2013/12/ancient-east-asian-y-dna-maps.html

    2nd, We don't know what language was spoken at Liangzhu or Daxi

    The fact the modern population of Dai and Taiwanese Aborigines both has high level of O1 should give you caution because Tai-Kadai and Austronesian are two separate language families

    3rd, it's a bit anachronistic to refer to people as Han BEFORE the Han empire(started in 206BC). Of course, "Chinese people" existed before Han Dynasty, but their self-designation was "Hua-Xia".

    As with successor Han, Hua-Xia is a cultural package.

    For example, during Spring and Autumn period, Southern Kingdom of Chu was regarded as Barbarians and King of Chu declare himself as such. Old Chinese slogan 尊王攘夷; lit. "Revere the King, Expel the Barbarians" explicitly targeted Chu as Barbarians to be ejected from Central Plains. But few hundred years later, by end of Warring State period, Chu Kingdom was squarely inside the Hua-Xia cultural sphere. Great Chinese poet Qu Yuan is a scion of Royal House of Chu.

    Founder of Han Dynasty Liu Bang was himself a former subject of Chu Kingdom.

    Written records emphasized that Chu Kingdom initially arose as confederation of "Three Miao"/ It's quite obvious Miao of China and Southern Han Chinese shared many cultural links such as dragon boat racing.

    Anyway, concept of Hua-Xia or Chineseness develop during Zhou which conquered Shang. Zhou claims descend from mythical Xia, the first dynasty. But Shang oracle bones makes no mention of Xia. From archaeological evidence, it's quite obvious that Shang has higher material culture than early Zhou. Zhou conquest of Shang is more akin to fringe barbarians conquering sedentary civilization.

    In any case, Chinese Neolithic predates the appearance of "Hua-Xia" cultural package by 4000-5000 years!

    “In any case, Chinese Neolithic predates the appearance of ‘Hua-Xia’ cultural package by 4000-5000 years!”

    Exactly. And it was almost exactly around that time that the physical appearance of the Southeast Asian population began to become ‘Mongoloid’.

    “Tai-Kadai and Austronesian are two separate language families”

    First time I’ve heard that. They are usually considered closely related. And both O1 of course. There have been several papers claiming a relationship. I haven’t time to look for them now.

    “If any thing O3 pushed North during metal ages”

    Perhaps so at that late stage but it doesn’t really make sense for any time earlier. O3 is the only connection possible to the spread south of the Mongoloid phenotype. Probably with a somewhat lesser contribution from both O1 and O2.

    “Maju had two diagrams that clearly illustrate this”

    Maju is often wrong when it comes to East Asia. And for some reason he is emotionally committed to a southern origin for the whole O clade.

    “And Daxi is primarily O3 with small percentage of O2″

    And Daxi is considered ancestral to Hmong-Mien.

    “still squarely in Southern China”.

    Using the Yangtze as any sort of ‘boundary’ is ridiculous. It has been a major route for several thousand years. People on both banks would be very similar by now. In fact the Chinese are remarkably homogeneous genetically as this post points out. To me that indicates an extensive and reasonably recent major expansion.

    “We don’t know what language was spoken at Liangzhu or Daxi”

    But we can hazard a very good guess.

    ” it’s a bit anachronistic to refer to people as Han BEFORE the Han empire”

    True, but what else can we call the population that carried the Mongoloid phenotype south to now dominate much of Southeast Asia? That’s what I originally put Han Chinese in quote marks when I wrote: ” they are effectively ‘Han Chinese’ even if they speak some language other than Mandarin’.

    “their self-designation was ‘Hua-Xia’”.

    How much of China did they cover?

    Read More
  25. My Chinese colleague is actually Manchu by heritage and he married a Hui but for all appaearaces, he is identidified by height as “Northern Chinese” and he does subscribe to the Chinese descriptive in keeping it simple while in USA.

    Read More
  26. @Rdorje Dpalbzang
    In France, Wenzhou immigrants' children do much worse in schools than the Indochinese Teochew, but in this case environment factors are quite non-trivial.

    The Indochinese are from former French colony and the parents most probably are fluent in French and they might have lived in France longer.

    Wenzhou is in Zhejiang province, the smartest natural pop subgroup in China, the average IQ is even higher than those in Shanghai who top the world in OECD PISA test. Most of them are the descendents of the imperial court officials who all migrated to the area after the old capital Loyang was overrun by the invaders.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CaoMengDe

    Wenzhou is in Zhejiang province, the smartest natural pop subgroup in China, the average IQ is even higher than those in Shanghai who top the world in OECD PISA test. Most of them are the descendents of the imperial court officials who all migrated to the area after the old capital Loyang was overrun by the invaders.
     
    That's a ridiculous claim.

    High Jin/Song officials went to new capitals in Hangzhou and Nanjing on the Lower Yangtze Delta, Chinese called the Lower Yangtze Delta Jiang Nan "South of the River".

    All the Northerner refugees brought significant linguistic changes to those place. Even today, Nanjing and Hangzhou dialect reflect significant "Northern Tilt" and are closer to Mandarin than rest of the Wu speaking region.

    Southern Zhejiang is traditionally poor because of hilly terrains and poor soil, and isolated from the rest of China by montains. Wenzhou dialect is NOT mutually intelligible with Wu dialects spoken in Lower Yangtze.

    I know this because my dad is from Zhejiang. My little maternal cousin from Chongqing married a boy whose family was from Southern Zhejiang. I was surprised that my Dad is using Mandarin to communicate with the groom's dad because I know my Dad is fluent in Wu dialect. When I asked him, He said "Oh, they are from SOUTH Zhejiang, I can't understand their dialect"

    He also said that in the old days "We didn't really consider them Zhejiang people because they were poor and their language is weird"

    Though, there is no denying that Wenzhou people have excellent business acumen, Many Wenzhou people went from illiterate or only primary school educated peasant farmers to wealthy private entrepreneurs in one generation.
  27. @dixie
    The Indochinese are from former French colony and the parents most probably are fluent in French and they might have lived in France longer.

    Wenzhou is in Zhejiang province, the smartest natural pop subgroup in China, the average IQ is even higher than those in Shanghai who top the world in OECD PISA test. Most of them are the descendents of the imperial court officials who all migrated to the area after the old capital Loyang was overrun by the invaders.

    Wenzhou is in Zhejiang province, the smartest natural pop subgroup in China, the average IQ is even higher than those in Shanghai who top the world in OECD PISA test. Most of them are the descendents of the imperial court officials who all migrated to the area after the old capital Loyang was overrun by the invaders.

    That’s a ridiculous claim.

    High Jin/Song officials went to new capitals in Hangzhou and Nanjing on the Lower Yangtze Delta, Chinese called the Lower Yangtze Delta Jiang Nan “South of the River”.

    All the Northerner refugees brought significant linguistic changes to those place. Even today, Nanjing and Hangzhou dialect reflect significant “Northern Tilt” and are closer to Mandarin than rest of the Wu speaking region.

    Southern Zhejiang is traditionally poor because of hilly terrains and poor soil, and isolated from the rest of China by montains. Wenzhou dialect is NOT mutually intelligible with Wu dialects spoken in Lower Yangtze.

    I know this because my dad is from Zhejiang. My little maternal cousin from Chongqing married a boy whose family was from Southern Zhejiang. I was surprised that my Dad is using Mandarin to communicate with the groom’s dad because I know my Dad is fluent in Wu dialect. When I asked him, He said “Oh, they are from SOUTH Zhejiang, I can’t understand their dialect”

    He also said that in the old days “We didn’t really consider them Zhejiang people because they were poor and their language is weird”

    Though, there is no denying that Wenzhou people have excellent business acumen, Many Wenzhou people went from illiterate or only primary school educated peasant farmers to wealthy private entrepreneurs in one generation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dixie
    Here is the result of a medical study of the IQ of children in China http://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/world/148306d1429211229-china-iq-map-provinces-8-10-2005.png

    Zhejiang 115.8 (Hangzhou is in Zhejiang)
    Shanghai 115.3
    Beijing 114.1
    Jiangsu 109.0 (where Nanjing is located)
    Fujian 107.1 (bordering Southern Zhejiang and also hilly)
    Guangdong 101.1
  28. The eminent Sinologist Edwin Pulleyblank claimed to show from placename evidence that an Austro-Asiatic language related to Vietnamese was spoken as far north as Shandong 山東 in Shang 商 and early Zhou 周 times. (See Zou 鄒 and Lu 魯 and the Sinification of Shandong, in the collection Central Asia and Non-Chinese Peoples of Ancient China.)

    It is a general theme of that book that the northern Chinese heartland was ethnically and linguistically varied at the dawn of historical records and that the southwards expansion of the Han Chinese obscures an earlier east-west division between the coastal provinces and the inland basins. The affinities you detect between groups now living in southern China and southeast Asia may conceivably go back to a time when the ancestors of both groups lived further north than now.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CaoMengDe

    It is a general theme of that book that the northern Chinese heartland was ethnically and linguistically varied at the dawn of historical records and that the southwards expansion of the Han Chinese obscures an earlier east-west division between the coastal provinces and the inland basins.
     
    This makes sense. I am not sure how the linguistic case was made, but from Zhou record, it's obvious that Zhou differentiated themselves from people to the East who are named 夷 which is a composite made of character big 大 + bow弓.

    Shangdong is particular was inhabited by this people of big bow, Zhou King granted charter of conquest to Jiang Ziya who went on to carve out the Dukedon of Qi in Shangdong.

    Later 夷 would become synonymous with "Barbarian" in Chinese. British were initially refered to as英夷or English Barbarian.
  29. @Philip Neal
    The eminent Sinologist Edwin Pulleyblank claimed to show from placename evidence that an Austro-Asiatic language related to Vietnamese was spoken as far north as Shandong 山東 in Shang 商 and early Zhou 周 times. (See Zou 鄒 and Lu 魯 and the Sinification of Shandong, in the collection Central Asia and Non-Chinese Peoples of Ancient China.)

    It is a general theme of that book that the northern Chinese heartland was ethnically and linguistically varied at the dawn of historical records and that the southwards expansion of the Han Chinese obscures an earlier east-west division between the coastal provinces and the inland basins. The affinities you detect between groups now living in southern China and southeast Asia may conceivably go back to a time when the ancestors of both groups lived further north than now.

    It is a general theme of that book that the northern Chinese heartland was ethnically and linguistically varied at the dawn of historical records and that the southwards expansion of the Han Chinese obscures an earlier east-west division between the coastal provinces and the inland basins.

    This makes sense. I am not sure how the linguistic case was made, but from Zhou record, it’s obvious that Zhou differentiated themselves from people to the East who are named 夷 which is a composite made of character big 大 + bow弓.

    Shangdong is particular was inhabited by this people of big bow, Zhou King granted charter of conquest to Jiang Ziya who went on to carve out the Dukedon of Qi in Shangdong.

    Later 夷 would become synonymous with “Barbarian” in Chinese. British were initially refered to as英夷or English Barbarian.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dixie
    Re: Zhou differentiated themselves from people to the East who are named 夷

    The Zhou people (Ji) were originally eastern Yi but was exiled to the west by the Shang https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%B7 "許多在後世被認為是華夏族或漢族正統的帝王其實都是夷。如孟子說:舜是東夷人,周文王是西夷人[3]。"

    The Shang people were also Eastern Yi. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%9C%E5%A4%B7 "商族是东夷少昊族系玄鸟氏的一支"

    It was just that when they were the boss, the so called barbarians were simply to the east of them.
  30. @CaoMengDe

    Wenzhou is in Zhejiang province, the smartest natural pop subgroup in China, the average IQ is even higher than those in Shanghai who top the world in OECD PISA test. Most of them are the descendents of the imperial court officials who all migrated to the area after the old capital Loyang was overrun by the invaders.
     
    That's a ridiculous claim.

    High Jin/Song officials went to new capitals in Hangzhou and Nanjing on the Lower Yangtze Delta, Chinese called the Lower Yangtze Delta Jiang Nan "South of the River".

    All the Northerner refugees brought significant linguistic changes to those place. Even today, Nanjing and Hangzhou dialect reflect significant "Northern Tilt" and are closer to Mandarin than rest of the Wu speaking region.

    Southern Zhejiang is traditionally poor because of hilly terrains and poor soil, and isolated from the rest of China by montains. Wenzhou dialect is NOT mutually intelligible with Wu dialects spoken in Lower Yangtze.

    I know this because my dad is from Zhejiang. My little maternal cousin from Chongqing married a boy whose family was from Southern Zhejiang. I was surprised that my Dad is using Mandarin to communicate with the groom's dad because I know my Dad is fluent in Wu dialect. When I asked him, He said "Oh, they are from SOUTH Zhejiang, I can't understand their dialect"

    He also said that in the old days "We didn't really consider them Zhejiang people because they were poor and their language is weird"

    Though, there is no denying that Wenzhou people have excellent business acumen, Many Wenzhou people went from illiterate or only primary school educated peasant farmers to wealthy private entrepreneurs in one generation.

    Here is the result of a medical study of the IQ of children in China http://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/world/148306d1429211229-china-iq-map-provinces-8-10-2005.png

    Zhejiang 115.8 (Hangzhou is in Zhejiang)
    Shanghai 115.3
    Beijing 114.1
    Jiangsu 109.0 (where Nanjing is located)
    Fujian 107.1 (bordering Southern Zhejiang and also hilly)
    Guangdong 101.1

    Read More
    • Replies: @CaoMengDe
    Of course, I am aware where Hangzhou is because that's where my family is from.

    Like I said, Hangzhou and the rest of Northern Zhejiang are on the Lower Yangtze Delta! Lower Yangtze Delta is also the most populated region where majority of Zhejiang population resides.

    No doubt, you also noticed the sharp drop off of the IQ as you goes further South, indeed look at Fujian data which borders Southern Zhejiang. You don't seem to be aware of the historical importance of the Lower Yangtze Delta as opposed to the rest of China. It has been the heart center of Chinese civilization in last 1000 years. Shanghai and Southern Jiangsu is also on the Lower Yangtze Delta. Southern Zhejiang like Wenzhou is simply not part of that cultural legacy.
  31. @dixie
    Here is the result of a medical study of the IQ of children in China http://www.city-data.com/forum/attachments/world/148306d1429211229-china-iq-map-provinces-8-10-2005.png

    Zhejiang 115.8 (Hangzhou is in Zhejiang)
    Shanghai 115.3
    Beijing 114.1
    Jiangsu 109.0 (where Nanjing is located)
    Fujian 107.1 (bordering Southern Zhejiang and also hilly)
    Guangdong 101.1

    Of course, I am aware where Hangzhou is because that’s where my family is from.

    Like I said, Hangzhou and the rest of Northern Zhejiang are on the Lower Yangtze Delta! Lower Yangtze Delta is also the most populated region where majority of Zhejiang population resides.

    No doubt, you also noticed the sharp drop off of the IQ as you goes further South, indeed look at Fujian data which borders Southern Zhejiang. You don’t seem to be aware of the historical importance of the Lower Yangtze Delta as opposed to the rest of China. It has been the heart center of Chinese civilization in last 1000 years. Shanghai and Southern Jiangsu is also on the Lower Yangtze Delta. Southern Zhejiang like Wenzhou is simply not part of that cultural legacy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dixie
    Simple ratio of the diff in IQs and latitudes btw the capitals Hanzhou and Fuzhou and accounted for posi of Wenzhou the IQ could be 111.12, much higher than that 109.0 for Jiangsu (Nanjing). The Japanese had done an effective effort to disperse the population of Nanjing to the surrounding areas.
  32. @CaoMengDe

    It is a general theme of that book that the northern Chinese heartland was ethnically and linguistically varied at the dawn of historical records and that the southwards expansion of the Han Chinese obscures an earlier east-west division between the coastal provinces and the inland basins.
     
    This makes sense. I am not sure how the linguistic case was made, but from Zhou record, it's obvious that Zhou differentiated themselves from people to the East who are named 夷 which is a composite made of character big 大 + bow弓.

    Shangdong is particular was inhabited by this people of big bow, Zhou King granted charter of conquest to Jiang Ziya who went on to carve out the Dukedon of Qi in Shangdong.

    Later 夷 would become synonymous with "Barbarian" in Chinese. British were initially refered to as英夷or English Barbarian.

    Re: Zhou differentiated themselves from people to the East who are named 夷

    The Zhou people (Ji) were originally eastern Yi but was exiled to the west by the Shang https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%B7 “許多在後世被認為是華夏族或漢族正統的帝王其實都是夷。如孟子說:舜是東夷人,周文王是西夷人[3]。”

    The Shang people were also Eastern Yi. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%9C%E5%A4%B7 “商族是东夷少昊族系玄鸟氏的一支”

    It was just that when they were the boss, the so called barbarians were simply to the east of them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CaoMengDe
    Chinese Wiki is really not a good place to get information. If you want to quote Mencius at least quote the Classical Chinese not the Modern translation. This is what 孟子 supposedly have said:

    孟子曰:“舜生于诸冯,迁于负夏,卒于鸣条,东夷之人也。文王生于岐周,卒于毕郢,西夷之人也。地之相去也,千有余里;世之相后也,夭有余岁.得志行乎中国,若合符节.先圣后圣,其揆一也。”

    Mencius' point what really that Shun and Zhou Founder were separated by 1000 miles in distance and 1000 years in time, but they all follow the same policies

    Guess what? Mencius is not anthropologist!

    This is more of parable to illustrate the moral lesson than statement of a historical fact (which is definitely not true). If you know anything about Chinese history, you would know that Confucians starting with Confucius himself are notorious for altering historical events to better suit their ideal moral universe.

    First of one, Shun is a mythical figure.

    2nd, Founder of Zhou lived 700 years before the time of Mencious.

    To give you a modern analogy, Genghis Khan lived 800 years ago, but nowadays many Chinese claims him as a Chinese hero.

    Early Zhou definitely was very different from Shang. Shang had much more developed material culture.

    Conquest of Shang by Zhou, is the conquest of an advanced sedentary (Shang) culture by Barbarians (Zhou) on the fringe

    But Zhou laid the foundation of classical Chinese culture, because the earliest written records all date from Zhou.

    Absorption of Shang is complete. Confuscius is supposedly descended from Shang nobility but he is a Zhou traditionalist (not really surprising, considering he lived 500 years after the fall of Shang, enough time for any assimilation).

    Zhou became the new norm and set the tone for next 3000 years.

    Original Shang records only appeared on oracle bones in the late 19th century. Whereas Zhou cultural norms seems familiar to us, our knowledge of Shang based on archaeological
    findings, reveal Shang to be a rather "alien" culture, very different from Zhou that came after.
    , @Twinkie

    It was just that when they were the boss, the so called barbarians were simply to the east of them.
     
    I always thought from what history I learned growing up in East Asia that:

    1. There was cultural contiguity from the Shang to the Zhou, as the Zhou elites sought to assimilate into and coopt the imperial legitimacy of the Shang.

    2. While the leaders of the Zhou were related to those of the Shang, the peoples of the respective dynasties had different origins.

    3. The term Dongyi (Eastern Bowmen/barbarians), and later, Donghu, came to be defined farther eastward as Chinese imperial sphere expanded, from the tribes in Shandong in the Shang/Zhou times to Buyeo (southern Manchurian/northern Korean) tribes later.

    Two other observations of my own.

    1. Did anyone else note that the classic foundation story of the Zhou is remarkably similar to that of Achaemenid Persia (the overthrowing of their overlords, the Shang and the Median Empire, respectively, as well as alleged familiar relationships to the previous regimes)?

    2. It appears that from very ancient times, the regions east of China seem to have been associated with excellent archery skills of the peoples there. Bows were recorded by the Chinese courts to have been received as tribute from various eastern groups and later Koreans. And even today Koreans absolutely dominate the Olympic sport of archery.
  33. @dixie
    Re: Zhou differentiated themselves from people to the East who are named 夷

    The Zhou people (Ji) were originally eastern Yi but was exiled to the west by the Shang https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%B7 "許多在後世被認為是華夏族或漢族正統的帝王其實都是夷。如孟子說:舜是東夷人,周文王是西夷人[3]。"

    The Shang people were also Eastern Yi. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%9C%E5%A4%B7 "商族是东夷少昊族系玄鸟氏的一支"

    It was just that when they were the boss, the so called barbarians were simply to the east of them.

    Chinese Wiki is really not a good place to get information. If you want to quote Mencius at least quote the Classical Chinese not the Modern translation. This is what 孟子 supposedly have said:

    孟子曰:“舜生于诸冯,迁于负夏,卒于鸣条,东夷之人也。文王生于岐周,卒于毕郢,西夷之人也。地之相去也,千有余里;世之相后也,夭有余岁.得志行乎中国,若合符节.先圣后圣,其揆一也。”

    Mencius’ point what really that Shun and Zhou Founder were separated by 1000 miles in distance and 1000 years in time, but they all follow the same policies

    Guess what? Mencius is not anthropologist!

    This is more of parable to illustrate the moral lesson than statement of a historical fact (which is definitely not true). If you know anything about Chinese history, you would know that Confucians starting with Confucius himself are notorious for altering historical events to better suit their ideal moral universe.

    First of one, Shun is a mythical figure.

    2nd, Founder of Zhou lived 700 years before the time of Mencious.

    To give you a modern analogy, Genghis Khan lived 800 years ago, but nowadays many Chinese claims him as a Chinese hero.

    Early Zhou definitely was very different from Shang. Shang had much more developed material culture.

    Conquest of Shang by Zhou, is the conquest of an advanced sedentary (Shang) culture by Barbarians (Zhou) on the fringe

    But Zhou laid the foundation of classical Chinese culture, because the earliest written records all date from Zhou.

    Absorption of Shang is complete. Confuscius is supposedly descended from Shang nobility but he is a Zhou traditionalist (not really surprising, considering he lived 500 years after the fall of Shang, enough time for any assimilation).

    Zhou became the new norm and set the tone for next 3000 years.

    Original Shang records only appeared on oracle bones in the late 19th century. Whereas Zhou cultural norms seems familiar to us, our knowledge of Shang based on archaeological
    findings, reveal Shang to be a rather “alien” culture, very different from Zhou that came after.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dixie
    Still, if Zhou wanted to differentiate themselves with Yi, why one of the high king of Zhou officially called himself the Yi King 周夷王? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Yi_of_Zhou_%28Xie%29

    Earliest ref of Zhou https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Tai_of_Zhou "In fact, modern excavation of the Shang oracle bones have found references to a Zhou at least a century before this during the reign of Wu Ding.[6] The earlier Zhou seems to be well away from the traditional locations for Bin, as well, leading scholars to posit a much longer migration west from Shanxi (East China, territory of Dong Yi)."

    The very ancient Zhou was a noble of Shang.
  34. interesting exchange. edifying. really nice to see not all my commenters suffer from the dunning-kruger effect ;-) [if you have to look that term up you might suffer from the problem!]

    Read More
    • Replies: @Roger Sweeny
    Which often has the same results as the "inverted expertise" effect:

    First of all, there is a substantial body of evidence that overconfidence grows worse as people become more expert in a given field. This is called the “inverted expertise” effect. In short, the more you know, the more you think you more know than you really do.

    from a fascinating speech by Jason Zweig, "Behavioral Finance: What Good Is It, Anyway?" Transcript at
    http://www.jasonzweig.com/behavioral-finance-what-good-is-it-anyway/?utm_content=buffer509be&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
  35. @CaoMengDe
    Chinese Wiki is really not a good place to get information. If you want to quote Mencius at least quote the Classical Chinese not the Modern translation. This is what 孟子 supposedly have said:

    孟子曰:“舜生于诸冯,迁于负夏,卒于鸣条,东夷之人也。文王生于岐周,卒于毕郢,西夷之人也。地之相去也,千有余里;世之相后也,夭有余岁.得志行乎中国,若合符节.先圣后圣,其揆一也。”

    Mencius' point what really that Shun and Zhou Founder were separated by 1000 miles in distance and 1000 years in time, but they all follow the same policies

    Guess what? Mencius is not anthropologist!

    This is more of parable to illustrate the moral lesson than statement of a historical fact (which is definitely not true). If you know anything about Chinese history, you would know that Confucians starting with Confucius himself are notorious for altering historical events to better suit their ideal moral universe.

    First of one, Shun is a mythical figure.

    2nd, Founder of Zhou lived 700 years before the time of Mencious.

    To give you a modern analogy, Genghis Khan lived 800 years ago, but nowadays many Chinese claims him as a Chinese hero.

    Early Zhou definitely was very different from Shang. Shang had much more developed material culture.

    Conquest of Shang by Zhou, is the conquest of an advanced sedentary (Shang) culture by Barbarians (Zhou) on the fringe

    But Zhou laid the foundation of classical Chinese culture, because the earliest written records all date from Zhou.

    Absorption of Shang is complete. Confuscius is supposedly descended from Shang nobility but he is a Zhou traditionalist (not really surprising, considering he lived 500 years after the fall of Shang, enough time for any assimilation).

    Zhou became the new norm and set the tone for next 3000 years.

    Original Shang records only appeared on oracle bones in the late 19th century. Whereas Zhou cultural norms seems familiar to us, our knowledge of Shang based on archaeological
    findings, reveal Shang to be a rather "alien" culture, very different from Zhou that came after.

    Still, if Zhou wanted to differentiate themselves with Yi, why one of the high king of Zhou officially called himself the Yi King 周夷王? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Yi_of_Zhou_%28Xie%29

    Earliest ref of Zhou https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Tai_of_Zhou “In fact, modern excavation of the Shang oracle bones have found references to a Zhou at least a century before this during the reign of Wu Ding.[6] The earlier Zhou seems to be well away from the traditional locations for Bin, as well, leading scholars to posit a much longer migration west from Shanxi (East China, territory of Dong Yi).”

    The very ancient Zhou was a noble of Shang.

    Read More
  36. @CaoMengDe
    Of course, I am aware where Hangzhou is because that's where my family is from.

    Like I said, Hangzhou and the rest of Northern Zhejiang are on the Lower Yangtze Delta! Lower Yangtze Delta is also the most populated region where majority of Zhejiang population resides.

    No doubt, you also noticed the sharp drop off of the IQ as you goes further South, indeed look at Fujian data which borders Southern Zhejiang. You don't seem to be aware of the historical importance of the Lower Yangtze Delta as opposed to the rest of China. It has been the heart center of Chinese civilization in last 1000 years. Shanghai and Southern Jiangsu is also on the Lower Yangtze Delta. Southern Zhejiang like Wenzhou is simply not part of that cultural legacy.

    Simple ratio of the diff in IQs and latitudes btw the capitals Hanzhou and Fuzhou and accounted for posi of Wenzhou the IQ could be 111.12, much higher than that 109.0 for Jiangsu (Nanjing). The Japanese had done an effective effort to disperse the population of Nanjing to the surrounding areas.

    Read More
  37. @dixie
    Re: Zhou differentiated themselves from people to the East who are named 夷

    The Zhou people (Ji) were originally eastern Yi but was exiled to the west by the Shang https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%B7 "許多在後世被認為是華夏族或漢族正統的帝王其實都是夷。如孟子說:舜是東夷人,周文王是西夷人[3]。"

    The Shang people were also Eastern Yi. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%9C%E5%A4%B7 "商族是东夷少昊族系玄鸟氏的一支"

    It was just that when they were the boss, the so called barbarians were simply to the east of them.

    It was just that when they were the boss, the so called barbarians were simply to the east of them.

    I always thought from what history I learned growing up in East Asia that:

    1. There was cultural contiguity from the Shang to the Zhou, as the Zhou elites sought to assimilate into and coopt the imperial legitimacy of the Shang.

    2. While the leaders of the Zhou were related to those of the Shang, the peoples of the respective dynasties had different origins.

    3. The term Dongyi (Eastern Bowmen/barbarians), and later, Donghu, came to be defined farther eastward as Chinese imperial sphere expanded, from the tribes in Shandong in the Shang/Zhou times to Buyeo (southern Manchurian/northern Korean) tribes later.

    Two other observations of my own.

    1. Did anyone else note that the classic foundation story of the Zhou is remarkably similar to that of Achaemenid Persia (the overthrowing of their overlords, the Shang and the Median Empire, respectively, as well as alleged familiar relationships to the previous regimes)?

    2. It appears that from very ancient times, the regions east of China seem to have been associated with excellent archery skills of the peoples there. Bows were recorded by the Chinese courts to have been received as tribute from various eastern groups and later Koreans. And even today Koreans absolutely dominate the Olympic sport of archery.

    Read More
  38. @Razib Khan
    interesting exchange. edifying. really nice to see not all my commenters suffer from the dunning-kruger effect ;-) [if you have to look that term up you might suffer from the problem!]

    Which often has the same results as the “inverted expertise” effect:

    First of all, there is a substantial body of evidence that overconfidence grows worse as people become more expert in a given field. This is called the “inverted expertise” effect. In short, the more you know, the more you think you more know than you really do.

    from a fascinating speech by Jason Zweig, “Behavioral Finance: What Good Is It, Anyway?” Transcript at

    http://www.jasonzweig.com/behavioral-finance-what-good-is-it-anyway/?utm_content=buffer509be&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    Read More

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