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Open Thread, 7/18/2016
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Been busy with work. Lots of data coming in. Will be good to turn around some science.

But I’m eating OK. Location matters….

Here’s a FB post from a researcher on Eran Elhaik’s weird results which regularly make press. I’ve started ignoring Elhaik’s stuff because it’s also so crazy.

I’ll try to monitor the open thread better this week and respond to questions.

 
• Category: Miscellaneous • Tags: Open Thread 
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  1. Nom, Nom, Nom! (enough said!)

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  2. Chuck says:

    To repeat a previous question: could you point me to a user friendly, publicly available program that allows one to convert allele data to admixture estimates? (And if you have time might you give a quick demo?) For example data from: Martínez et al. “Genetic data on 11 STRs (CSF1PO, TPOX, TH01, F13A01, FESFPS, vWA, D16S539, D7S820, D13S317, F13B, LPL) in an Argentine northeast population”

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  3. ohwilleke says: • Website

    Are you the cook or do others deserve compliments for the yummy meal?

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  4. Looks delicious! Also reminds me I need to monogram some cutlery to carry around.

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  5. i’ve added a link to the photo.

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  6. AG says:

    Looks like quite high protein food. Heard that Warren Buffett like to eat meat with very little veg or fruit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

    Just love this story which is never getting old.

    Unfortunately, most people in this world just behave like blind men without realizing it. These people end up arguing with each other because they consider their perspective as whole. They could not comprehend something as partial factor in complicated issue. To them, every thing is all or none.

    In the book of The Fall of Rome: And the End of Civilization, Bryan argued that Germanic barbarians outnumbered Rome army as critical factor in the demise of Rome despite of technological superiority of Rome. On the other hand, the critics might argued that colonial force could defeat vast number of native people with Maxim gun – technological superiority. He pointed out that the flaw in this kind of thinking is not able to think in quantity vs quality equation. Basically people who are bad in math are often fall into this kind of argument. These kind of people are easily fall into fallacy of single factor as whole. Both quality and quantity matters.

    In complicated issue, it is often involved in more than couple of factors with both quantity and quality implicated. People who can see clearly all these factors interactions have edge to figure out truth, make right judgment for life, pick right kind of investment and many others. Each time, it is different factor with different quantity and quality, which is determining outcome. Replicating others success might not have the same outcome due to this very reason. Unfortunately, people who can not see the truth will bark at wrong thing and never figure it out. Religious solution for them might not be bad choice.

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    • Replies: @random observer
    Was the technological superiority of Rome ever all that great?

    [no -razib]

    Organizational/institutional/training/logistics, sure, especially in the late Republic and early to middle empire. Perhaps a bit less so after the 3rd century. That logistical bit might even extend to the capacity to supply all its troops with proper kit [gladius, pili, armour, with all properly worked iron components; or their late empire equivalent equipment] where even the most advanced barbarians were less well and more variably equipped.

    But technological? How much superior were Roman armaments in technology? Were their iron equipments sufficiently more durable over time or in combat to make a difference?

    [no, u r right. rome won on institutions. though concrete, glass, and arches are not trivial -razib]

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  7. Have a choice yet for best brisket in Austin?

    I tried La Barbecue when I was last there and enjoyed the meat and whole experience but have no real reference point.

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    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    mostly i went to *stubbs*
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  8. Robert Ford says: • Website

    For the first time, scientists to sequence genes in space

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-space-station-genetics-idUSKCN0ZU1ZF

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  9. @granesperanzablanco
    Have a choice yet for best brisket in Austin?

    I tried La Barbecue when I was last there and enjoyed the meat and whole experience but have no real reference point.

    mostly i went to *stubbs*

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  10. Steak and eggs – a quintessentially Australian dish!

    Good to see you are getting some dinkum Aussie tucker into you. Do you good :)

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  11. @AG
    Looks like quite high protein food. Heard that Warren Buffett like to eat meat with very little veg or fruit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

    Just love this story which is never getting old.

    Unfortunately, most people in this world just behave like blind men without realizing it. These people end up arguing with each other because they consider their perspective as whole. They could not comprehend something as partial factor in complicated issue. To them, every thing is all or none.

    In the book of The Fall of Rome: And the End of Civilization, Bryan argued that Germanic barbarians outnumbered Rome army as critical factor in the demise of Rome despite of technological superiority of Rome. On the other hand, the critics might argued that colonial force could defeat vast number of native people with Maxim gun - technological superiority. He pointed out that the flaw in this kind of thinking is not able to think in quantity vs quality equation. Basically people who are bad in math are often fall into this kind of argument. These kind of people are easily fall into fallacy of single factor as whole. Both quality and quantity matters.

    In complicated issue, it is often involved in more than couple of factors with both quantity and quality implicated. People who can see clearly all these factors interactions have edge to figure out truth, make right judgment for life, pick right kind of investment and many others. Each time, it is different factor with different quantity and quality, which is determining outcome. Replicating others success might not have the same outcome due to this very reason. Unfortunately, people who can not see the truth will bark at wrong thing and never figure it out. Religious solution for them might not be bad choice.

    Was the technological superiority of Rome ever all that great?

    [no -razib]

    Organizational/institutional/training/logistics, sure, especially in the late Republic and early to middle empire. Perhaps a bit less so after the 3rd century. That logistical bit might even extend to the capacity to supply all its troops with proper kit [gladius, pili, armour, with all properly worked iron components; or their late empire equivalent equipment] where even the most advanced barbarians were less well and more variably equipped.

    But technological? How much superior were Roman armaments in technology? Were their iron equipments sufficiently more durable over time or in combat to make a difference?

    [no, u r right. rome won on institutions. though concrete, glass, and arches are not trivial -razib]

    Read More
    • Replies: @AG
    That is the point. The degree of Rome tech superiority over barbarians was far less than that of colonial power over native people. When tech edge(quality) is small, the number (quantity) make a lot of difference. Certainly I simplified my earlier comment which omitting superior Rome institution as part of game. Even the institution edge over barbarian might not so great either.
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  12. sprfls says:

    The Embark site looks great — way nicer than any human consumer genomics company! Congrats to the team.

    [will pass along, -razib]

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  13. What is it going to take for Eran Elhaik to start questioning his own assumptions? What he’s putting out is just bad science, and it’s catnip for antisemites.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    catnip for antisemites
     
    I dunno, I'm reading some sites that are usually considered anti-Semitic, e.g. The Occidental Observer, and they usually reject the Khazar hypothesis, because they consider it bad science. It's a dumb Jew-hater commenter thing.

    To be honest, it's difficult to say if the Khazar hypothesis is "bad" or "good for the Jews". I'd think most people who hate Jews hate them for other reasons, and those who like them, well, they'd also like them anyway.
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  14. @CupOfCanada
    What is it going to take for Eran Elhaik to start questioning his own assumptions? What he's putting out is just bad science, and it's catnip for antisemites.

    catnip for antisemites

    I dunno, I’m reading some sites that are usually considered anti-Semitic, e.g. The Occidental Observer, and they usually reject the Khazar hypothesis, because they consider it bad science. It’s a dumb Jew-hater commenter thing.

    To be honest, it’s difficult to say if the Khazar hypothesis is “bad” or “good for the Jews”. I’d think most people who hate Jews hate them for other reasons, and those who like them, well, they’d also like them anyway.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CupOfCanada
    In more left wing antisemitism it's definitely a common trope to portray Jews purely European colonialists and diminish any historic connection to the Levant. Not that having deep roots in the Levant justifies doing bad shit there either.

    And yah, it ignores the huge Sephardic and Mizrahi populations in Israel too.
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  15. donut says:

    “But I’m eating OK. Location matters….”

    No , location doesn’t matter . Learn to cook for yourself . Really Razib what kind of scientist are you anyway ? Cooking is just ingredients and measurements . Goddammit !! Take an hour and learn to cook for yourself . I’m sure all your scientific accomplishments are great but ! There is not much more immediately gratifying or liberating than being able to make what you want when you want . Shit if I can do it you can do it too .

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  16. AG says:
    @random observer
    Was the technological superiority of Rome ever all that great?

    [no -razib]

    Organizational/institutional/training/logistics, sure, especially in the late Republic and early to middle empire. Perhaps a bit less so after the 3rd century. That logistical bit might even extend to the capacity to supply all its troops with proper kit [gladius, pili, armour, with all properly worked iron components; or their late empire equivalent equipment] where even the most advanced barbarians were less well and more variably equipped.

    But technological? How much superior were Roman armaments in technology? Were their iron equipments sufficiently more durable over time or in combat to make a difference?

    [no, u r right. rome won on institutions. though concrete, glass, and arches are not trivial -razib]

    That is the point. The degree of Rome tech superiority over barbarians was far less than that of colonial power over native people. When tech edge(quality) is small, the number (quantity) make a lot of difference. Certainly I simplified my earlier comment which omitting superior Rome institution as part of game. Even the institution edge over barbarian might not so great either.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  17. @reiner Tor

    catnip for antisemites
     
    I dunno, I'm reading some sites that are usually considered anti-Semitic, e.g. The Occidental Observer, and they usually reject the Khazar hypothesis, because they consider it bad science. It's a dumb Jew-hater commenter thing.

    To be honest, it's difficult to say if the Khazar hypothesis is "bad" or "good for the Jews". I'd think most people who hate Jews hate them for other reasons, and those who like them, well, they'd also like them anyway.

    In more left wing antisemitism it’s definitely a common trope to portray Jews purely European colonialists and diminish any historic connection to the Levant. Not that having deep roots in the Levant justifies doing bad shit there either.

    And yah, it ignores the huge Sephardic and Mizrahi populations in Israel too.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Shaikorth
    Ashkenazim and Sephardim aren't too different from each other in any case. Possibly the reason why Elhaik doesn't include the latter in his Khazar papers...
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  18. Shaikorth says:
    @CupOfCanada
    In more left wing antisemitism it's definitely a common trope to portray Jews purely European colonialists and diminish any historic connection to the Levant. Not that having deep roots in the Levant justifies doing bad shit there either.

    And yah, it ignores the huge Sephardic and Mizrahi populations in Israel too.

    Ashkenazim and Sephardim aren’t too different from each other in any case. Possibly the reason why Elhaik doesn’t include the latter in his Khazar papers…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    yep. the mizrahi are the outgroup. i've seen some unpublished work. there's structure btwn different mizrahi groups from iraq to iran. it's old structure.
    , @CupOfCanada
    Genetically, I realize. Syrian Jews cluster with Sephardim too. It roughly corresponds to Persian Empire vs Roman Empire. In terms of the left wing discourse that's not all that relevant. Agreed on why Elhaik leaves them out.
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  19. @Shaikorth
    Ashkenazim and Sephardim aren't too different from each other in any case. Possibly the reason why Elhaik doesn't include the latter in his Khazar papers...

    yep. the mizrahi are the outgroup. i’ve seen some unpublished work. there’s structure btwn different mizrahi groups from iraq to iran. it’s old structure.

    Read More
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  20. @Shaikorth
    Ashkenazim and Sephardim aren't too different from each other in any case. Possibly the reason why Elhaik doesn't include the latter in his Khazar papers...

    Genetically, I realize. Syrian Jews cluster with Sephardim too. It roughly corresponds to Persian Empire vs Roman Empire. In terms of the left wing discourse that’s not all that relevant. Agreed on why Elhaik leaves them out.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    like morocccan seph, syrian seph show clear shift in the PCA toward the local substrate. doesn't take away from what you're saying, but it's pretty obvious when you look at the data that sephardic jews are european jews mixed with whatever post-spain substrate they found in the area from the jewry (the mozabite shift of moroccan jews is probably from indigenous gene flow into the pre-sephardic jews).
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  21. @CupOfCanada
    Genetically, I realize. Syrian Jews cluster with Sephardim too. It roughly corresponds to Persian Empire vs Roman Empire. In terms of the left wing discourse that's not all that relevant. Agreed on why Elhaik leaves them out.

    like morocccan seph, syrian seph show clear shift in the PCA toward the local substrate. doesn’t take away from what you’re saying, but it’s pretty obvious when you look at the data that sephardic jews are european jews mixed with whatever post-spain substrate they found in the area from the jewry (the mozabite shift of moroccan jews is probably from indigenous gene flow into the pre-sephardic jews).

    Read More
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