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Open Thread, 11/20/2016

ls Went to Z & Y in San Francisco recently. Second time. Still have to give Mala in Houston better marks. A friend who has been to both agrees.

Been busy working recently. But obviously a lot is going on in science and non-science….

 
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  1. Any recommendations for Los Angeles or Orange County? Not looking for best ever, just really good food.

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    • Replies: @Seth Largo
    Diamond Plaza in Hacienda Heights has lots of good East Asian fare.
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  2. I know I am an old-fashioned, cranky guy, but whenever I see young hipsters taking pictures of their food at restaurants, I think of this: https://youtu.be/Xv3SeUdRBZM?t=29s

    Read More
  3. A bit late in the day, but anyone have good suggestions/recipes for a Chinese food themed thanksgiving meal?

    Read More
  4. @billyrae
    Any recommendations for Los Angeles or Orange County? Not looking for best ever, just really good food.

    Diamond Plaza in Hacienda Heights has lots of good East Asian fare.

    Read More
  5. You mentioned a few weeks ago that you were reading the Unfinished Empire. Coincidentally, I read it earlier this year, and am thus very curious as to your thoughts on it. Personally, I found it rather underwhelming; I mostly took away from it that the process of building the British Empire was really messy, that (semi-)private actors played a notable role and that much of the territory nominally under British sovereignty was in reality ruled by local proxies.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    lots of facts. no major theory. *after tamerlane* was better.
  6. Probably a sensitive question so no worries if this doesn’t get approved or answered…

    I assume everyone here saw the whole “Hail/heil Trump” fiasco with Richard Spencer. One the articles being shared a lot in relation to that event is Allum Bokhari and Milos Yiannoplous’ An Establishment Conservative’s Guide to the Alt-Right which names Richard Spencer as one of the intellectual leaders of the alt-right. It also names you one and has a picture of you just below. I imagine this is an unwelcome association and attention, but I’d be curious to hear your thoughts.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    It also names you one and has a picture of you just below.

    as i said on twitter, i am not alt-right. i'm moderately conservative with libertarianish tendencies. they used the picture without asking. kind of getting annoyed by people asking me about being alt-right, a radio station even wanted me to talk about being alt-right.

    as for richard, he's a problem for everyone he touched now because of his nuttiness. i mean, is it common knowledge that he played pick-up games with brendan nyhan at duke? the list goes on...
  7. @Unwanted Party Guest
    You mentioned a few weeks ago that you were reading the Unfinished Empire. Coincidentally, I read it earlier this year, and am thus very curious as to your thoughts on it. Personally, I found it rather underwhelming; I mostly took away from it that the process of building the British Empire was really messy, that (semi-)private actors played a notable role and that much of the territory nominally under British sovereignty was in reality ruled by local proxies.

    lots of facts. no major theory. *after tamerlane* was better.

    Read More
  8. @CupOfCanada
    Probably a sensitive question so no worries if this doesn't get approved or answered...

    I assume everyone here saw the whole "Hail/heil Trump" fiasco with Richard Spencer. One the articles being shared a lot in relation to that event is Allum Bokhari and Milos Yiannoplous' An Establishment Conservative's Guide to the Alt-Right which names Richard Spencer as one of the intellectual leaders of the alt-right. It also names you one and has a picture of you just below. I imagine this is an unwelcome association and attention, but I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

    It also names you one and has a picture of you just below.

    as i said on twitter, i am not alt-right. i’m moderately conservative with libertarianish tendencies. they used the picture without asking. kind of getting annoyed by people asking me about being alt-right, a radio station even wanted me to talk about being alt-right.

    as for richard, he’s a problem for everyone he touched now because of his nuttiness. i mean, is it common knowledge that he played pick-up games with brendan nyhan at duke? the list goes on…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    as for richard, he’s a problem for everyone he touched now because of his nuttiness.
     
    Is it just nuttiness? Because it strikes me as something a bit more sinister.

    For example, take a look at this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/lets-party-like-its-1933-inside-the-disturbing-alt-right-world-of-richard-spencer/2016/11/22/cf81dc74-aff7-11e6-840f-e3ebab6bcdd3_story.html

    “We need an ethno-state,” he said in a 2013 speech, “so that our people can ‘come home again,’ can live amongst family and feel safe and secure.”

    He ended his address by invoking the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.: “I have a dream.”

    Last week, Spencer was reluctant to discuss how that dream would be achieved.

    How, he was asked, in a nation with more than 100 million blacks, Asians and Latinos, could a whites-only territory be created without overwhelming violence?

    Over chocolate croissants and an Americano coffee at a Corner Bakery Cafe, he avoided the question, discussing Nietzsche, communism’s origins, history’s unpredictability.

    Then, at last, he offered an answer.

    “Look, maybe it will be horribly bloody and terrible,” he said. “That’s a possibility with everything.”
     
    Now, as I recall, Mr. Khan, I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin. Considering his answer about the "white ethno-state" leaves me with two thoughts about him - either 1) he doesn't believe what he is selling, but he says these things to attract followers who do and to garner attention (I get the sense that he is VERY image conscious) or 2) he does believe in the monstrosity he peddles - probably because he hasn't seen real bloodshed and mass violence. In other words, he is either a con-man or a juvenile, but bloodthirsty psychopath.

    And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already) and hypocrisy:

    Spencer, of course, would expel Muslims from his ethno-state. And most women, he said as he was being driven from the hotel to his next appointment, would return to their traditional role of bearing children.

    His attitude toward women and minorities made his admiration for Tila Tequila, the Nazi-loving Vietnamese American, surprising. Would he allow her in the ethno-state?

    “There are always exceptions, I guess,” an amused Spencer would say later. “I’m a generous guy.”
     
    In other words, HE gets to decide who is and is not "white" and gets to live in his ethnostate. This is an unbelievable level of deluded sense of grandeur for himself. It is also a particularly jejune expression of power-worship, like a bully with a sandbox who decides which among his friends can play in it.

    And "Let's party like it's 1933"? Good grief. My wife's late grandfather, the man I loved the most in her family and with whom I spent hours discussing war experiences, left pieces of himself in France and Germany fighting the Nazis. I think he would be sickened by the likes of him were he still alive.

    Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/

    What a moronic person. She - an ethnic Vietnamese - shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn't even know how how to spell "Sieg Heil" properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.
    , @Emma
    "as i said on twitter, i am not alt-right. i’m moderately conservative with libertarianish tendencies. "
    I thought that the Unz Review was an alt-right site, although as a foreigner, my understanding of the American political tendencies is really limited. Is that uncorrect or are your views not in agreement with those of the other bloggers of the site?
  9. @Razib Khan
    It also names you one and has a picture of you just below.

    as i said on twitter, i am not alt-right. i'm moderately conservative with libertarianish tendencies. they used the picture without asking. kind of getting annoyed by people asking me about being alt-right, a radio station even wanted me to talk about being alt-right.

    as for richard, he's a problem for everyone he touched now because of his nuttiness. i mean, is it common knowledge that he played pick-up games with brendan nyhan at duke? the list goes on...

    as for richard, he’s a problem for everyone he touched now because of his nuttiness.

    Is it just nuttiness? Because it strikes me as something a bit more sinister.

    For example, take a look at this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/lets-party-like-its-1933-inside-the-disturbing-alt-right-world-of-richard-spencer/2016/11/22/cf81dc74-aff7-11e6-840f-e3ebab6bcdd3_story.html

    “We need an ethno-state,” he said in a 2013 speech, “so that our people can ‘come home again,’ can live amongst family and feel safe and secure.”

    He ended his address by invoking the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.: “I have a dream.”

    Last week, Spencer was reluctant to discuss how that dream would be achieved.

    How, he was asked, in a nation with more than 100 million blacks, Asians and Latinos, could a whites-only territory be created without overwhelming violence?

    Over chocolate croissants and an Americano coffee at a Corner Bakery Cafe, he avoided the question, discussing Nietzsche, communism’s origins, history’s unpredictability.

    Then, at last, he offered an answer.

    “Look, maybe it will be horribly bloody and terrible,” he said. “That’s a possibility with everything.”

    Now, as I recall, Mr. Khan, I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin. Considering his answer about the “white ethno-state” leaves me with two thoughts about him – either 1) he doesn’t believe what he is selling, but he says these things to attract followers who do and to garner attention (I get the sense that he is VERY image conscious) or 2) he does believe in the monstrosity he peddles – probably because he hasn’t seen real bloodshed and mass violence. In other words, he is either a con-man or a juvenile, but bloodthirsty psychopath.

    And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already) and hypocrisy:

    Spencer, of course, would expel Muslims from his ethno-state. And most women, he said as he was being driven from the hotel to his next appointment, would return to their traditional role of bearing children.

    His attitude toward women and minorities made his admiration for Tila Tequila, the Nazi-loving Vietnamese American, surprising. Would he allow her in the ethno-state?

    “There are always exceptions, I guess,” an amused Spencer would say later. “I’m a generous guy.”

    In other words, HE gets to decide who is and is not “white” and gets to live in his ethnostate. This is an unbelievable level of deluded sense of grandeur for himself. It is also a particularly jejune expression of power-worship, like a bully with a sandbox who decides which among his friends can play in it.

    And “Let’s party like it’s 1933″? Good grief. My wife’s late grandfather, the man I loved the most in her family and with whom I spent hours discussing war experiences, left pieces of himself in France and Germany fighting the Nazis. I think he would be sickened by the likes of him were he still alive.

    Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/

    What a moronic person. She – an ethnic Vietnamese – shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn’t even know how how to spell “Sieg Heil” properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    i can't vouch for his sincerity. we've long been out of touch. he has a postmodern sensibility about these things, so i don't what is, and isn't, serious.

    but playacting the nationalist socialist obviously makes that all irrelevant. you don't go there. period.

    that being said, he's not the huge player he makes it out to be.
    , @Lord Jeff Sessions

    And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already)
     
    I listened to a podcast he did and he wasn’t familiar with the idea of a disparate impact lawsuit. He’s very into this nietzschean stuff, and totally ungrounded from the real world.
    , @Talha
    Hey Twinkie,

    Honestly, the antics sound a lot like what I remember watching in the 80's with pro-wrestling - just less sweat and guys in their chuddies.

    We have 50 states, why don't we give a couple of contiguous ones to these guys and like-minded fellows to start their 'new dawn'? They'll either run it into the ground or prove out their white-ethnic paradise; either way sounds like a bonus to me. Then the rest of the country can follow suit or not, depending on results.

    I know, this is all hypothetical, but I'd like to see them at least be more local scale and practical about their grand designs. You know like call for true freedom to associate and allow for the legality of regional housing discrimination. But it seems they want the whole country all at once to take the plunge on this dream of theirs.

    Peace.
    , @Razib Khan
    I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin

    i talked with him on the phone several times and had a professional relationship with him in the late 2000s. before he was a WN. or at least he said to me he wasn't a WN (since he had just gotten out of a relationship with an asian woman at the time i took him at his word).
    , @syonredux

    Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/

    What a moronic person. She – an ethnic Vietnamese – shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn’t even know how how to spell “Sieg Heil” properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.
     
    I see her as a Vietnamese counterpart to the numerous White SJWs out there. You know, the "good" White people who constantly bemoan the awfulness of Europeans and do everything that they can to promote the interests of "People of Color."
  10. What a moronic person. She – an ethnic Vietnamese – shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn’t even know how how to spell “Sieg Heil” properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.

    Per wikipedia, she is also a former playboy model.

    I suspect she was abused as a child.

    Read More
  11. @Twinkie

    as for richard, he’s a problem for everyone he touched now because of his nuttiness.
     
    Is it just nuttiness? Because it strikes me as something a bit more sinister.

    For example, take a look at this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/lets-party-like-its-1933-inside-the-disturbing-alt-right-world-of-richard-spencer/2016/11/22/cf81dc74-aff7-11e6-840f-e3ebab6bcdd3_story.html

    “We need an ethno-state,” he said in a 2013 speech, “so that our people can ‘come home again,’ can live amongst family and feel safe and secure.”

    He ended his address by invoking the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.: “I have a dream.”

    Last week, Spencer was reluctant to discuss how that dream would be achieved.

    How, he was asked, in a nation with more than 100 million blacks, Asians and Latinos, could a whites-only territory be created without overwhelming violence?

    Over chocolate croissants and an Americano coffee at a Corner Bakery Cafe, he avoided the question, discussing Nietzsche, communism’s origins, history’s unpredictability.

    Then, at last, he offered an answer.

    “Look, maybe it will be horribly bloody and terrible,” he said. “That’s a possibility with everything.”
     
    Now, as I recall, Mr. Khan, I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin. Considering his answer about the "white ethno-state" leaves me with two thoughts about him - either 1) he doesn't believe what he is selling, but he says these things to attract followers who do and to garner attention (I get the sense that he is VERY image conscious) or 2) he does believe in the monstrosity he peddles - probably because he hasn't seen real bloodshed and mass violence. In other words, he is either a con-man or a juvenile, but bloodthirsty psychopath.

    And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already) and hypocrisy:

    Spencer, of course, would expel Muslims from his ethno-state. And most women, he said as he was being driven from the hotel to his next appointment, would return to their traditional role of bearing children.

    His attitude toward women and minorities made his admiration for Tila Tequila, the Nazi-loving Vietnamese American, surprising. Would he allow her in the ethno-state?

    “There are always exceptions, I guess,” an amused Spencer would say later. “I’m a generous guy.”
     
    In other words, HE gets to decide who is and is not "white" and gets to live in his ethnostate. This is an unbelievable level of deluded sense of grandeur for himself. It is also a particularly jejune expression of power-worship, like a bully with a sandbox who decides which among his friends can play in it.

    And "Let's party like it's 1933"? Good grief. My wife's late grandfather, the man I loved the most in her family and with whom I spent hours discussing war experiences, left pieces of himself in France and Germany fighting the Nazis. I think he would be sickened by the likes of him were he still alive.

    Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/

    What a moronic person. She - an ethnic Vietnamese - shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn't even know how how to spell "Sieg Heil" properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.

    i can’t vouch for his sincerity. we’ve long been out of touch. he has a postmodern sensibility about these things, so i don’t what is, and isn’t, serious.

    but playacting the nationalist socialist obviously makes that all irrelevant. you don’t go there. period.

    that being said, he’s not the huge player he makes it out to be.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    he has a postmodern sensibility about these things
     
    I do not know what that means - would you mind elaborating just a bit?

    that being said, he’s not the huge player he makes it out to be.
     
    You mean like where he takes credit for Trump's victory?

    He seems like a parody of some sort:

    He dresses in three-piece Brooks Brothers suits, gold-coin cuff links and $5,000 Swiss watches
     
    Geez, I don't know where to start.

    Why does he get so much time on MSM? Is it because he is not a toothless cretin who screams "white power" at every turn? Because he contradicts MSM's image of what a white nationalist is supposed to be, what with his haircut and normal looks and "Brooks Brothers suits"?

    *BB is what interns wear on the Hill and doesn't go with a "$5,000 Swiss watches." Mr. Spencer should get a different wardrobe consultant... or a visit to Savile Row in London or at least to Field English Custom Tailors in Georgetown after he eats at Maggiano's.
    , @Talha

    he’s not the *yuge* player he makes it out to be
     
    Fixed it for ya'.

    you don’t go there. period.
     
    Agreed. Which hearkens back to Twinkie's point - are these a bunch of immature adults having fun? Where do these bloggers their funding? That is the most interesting question to me. Is it all just grassroots donations?

    Peace.
  12. @Twinkie

    as for richard, he’s a problem for everyone he touched now because of his nuttiness.
     
    Is it just nuttiness? Because it strikes me as something a bit more sinister.

    For example, take a look at this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/lets-party-like-its-1933-inside-the-disturbing-alt-right-world-of-richard-spencer/2016/11/22/cf81dc74-aff7-11e6-840f-e3ebab6bcdd3_story.html

    “We need an ethno-state,” he said in a 2013 speech, “so that our people can ‘come home again,’ can live amongst family and feel safe and secure.”

    He ended his address by invoking the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.: “I have a dream.”

    Last week, Spencer was reluctant to discuss how that dream would be achieved.

    How, he was asked, in a nation with more than 100 million blacks, Asians and Latinos, could a whites-only territory be created without overwhelming violence?

    Over chocolate croissants and an Americano coffee at a Corner Bakery Cafe, he avoided the question, discussing Nietzsche, communism’s origins, history’s unpredictability.

    Then, at last, he offered an answer.

    “Look, maybe it will be horribly bloody and terrible,” he said. “That’s a possibility with everything.”
     
    Now, as I recall, Mr. Khan, I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin. Considering his answer about the "white ethno-state" leaves me with two thoughts about him - either 1) he doesn't believe what he is selling, but he says these things to attract followers who do and to garner attention (I get the sense that he is VERY image conscious) or 2) he does believe in the monstrosity he peddles - probably because he hasn't seen real bloodshed and mass violence. In other words, he is either a con-man or a juvenile, but bloodthirsty psychopath.

    And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already) and hypocrisy:

    Spencer, of course, would expel Muslims from his ethno-state. And most women, he said as he was being driven from the hotel to his next appointment, would return to their traditional role of bearing children.

    His attitude toward women and minorities made his admiration for Tila Tequila, the Nazi-loving Vietnamese American, surprising. Would he allow her in the ethno-state?

    “There are always exceptions, I guess,” an amused Spencer would say later. “I’m a generous guy.”
     
    In other words, HE gets to decide who is and is not "white" and gets to live in his ethnostate. This is an unbelievable level of deluded sense of grandeur for himself. It is also a particularly jejune expression of power-worship, like a bully with a sandbox who decides which among his friends can play in it.

    And "Let's party like it's 1933"? Good grief. My wife's late grandfather, the man I loved the most in her family and with whom I spent hours discussing war experiences, left pieces of himself in France and Germany fighting the Nazis. I think he would be sickened by the likes of him were he still alive.

    Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/

    What a moronic person. She - an ethnic Vietnamese - shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn't even know how how to spell "Sieg Heil" properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.

    And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already)

    I listened to a podcast he did and he wasn’t familiar with the idea of a disparate impact lawsuit. He’s very into this nietzschean stuff, and totally ungrounded from the real world.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    He’s very into this nietzschean stuff, and totally ungrounded from the real world.

    he's on the front page of every major newspaper right now. how ungrounded? just saying, is he 'crazy like a fox'?

  13. @Razib Khan
    i can't vouch for his sincerity. we've long been out of touch. he has a postmodern sensibility about these things, so i don't what is, and isn't, serious.

    but playacting the nationalist socialist obviously makes that all irrelevant. you don't go there. period.

    that being said, he's not the huge player he makes it out to be.

    he has a postmodern sensibility about these things

    I do not know what that means – would you mind elaborating just a bit?

    that being said, he’s not the huge player he makes it out to be.

    You mean like where he takes credit for Trump’s victory?

    He seems like a parody of some sort:

    He dresses in three-piece Brooks Brothers suits, gold-coin cuff links and $5,000 Swiss watches

    Geez, I don’t know where to start.

    Why does he get so much time on MSM? Is it because he is not a toothless cretin who screams “white power” at every turn? Because he contradicts MSM’s image of what a white nationalist is supposed to be, what with his haircut and normal looks and “Brooks Brothers suits”?

    *BB is what interns wear on the Hill and doesn’t go with a “$5,000 Swiss watches.” Mr. Spencer should get a different wardrobe consultant… or a visit to Savile Row in London or at least to Field English Custom Tailors in Georgetown after he eats at Maggiano’s.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Why does he get so much time on MSM?

    It serves their purpose.

    Spencer and the others like him have no mass following. They are continually in a scrum for devotees and dollars.

    Why are you so invested with this one guy.

    I have spent a fair amount of time here at Unz challenging 88s and racists in the comment sections. I don't remember seeing you show up with many comments except occasionally where Talha has pushed back against bad information on Muslims.

    You don't seem to be able to make distinctions. You make everything into either/or. Just like you kept insisting that I was a WN when I kept telling you that I was not.
    , @Razib Khan
    I do not know what that means – would you mind elaborating just a bit?



    i mean that he is obviously working in some ways to shock people. not because he thinks what he says is true, but because it will alter the nature of the discourse. i mean, we're talking about him here.
    , @CupOfCanada
    It's not just the MSM that built him up. That Breitbart piece I mentioned points to Spencer as one of the intellectual leaders of the alt-right. They're trying to pretend that never happened now, but it did. Spencer was someone a lot of alt-right folks were happy to point to before the full extent of his views became so widely known. And he had his profile from Taki's. Obviously not the biggest fish in the world but I don't think the association is entirely unfair here, at least not for Breitbart and Milos.

    @iffen - that applies to your comments there too. It wasn't just the MSM giving this guy a platform years ago.

    @Razib

    That sucks.

    One thing on the white nationalist/supremacist front - I'd point out that a lot of those types (including Bannon) are pretty anti-Catholic too. So the view of what "white" is can be even narrower than just Christian, and more WASP.
    , @notanon

    Why does he get so much time on MSM?
     
    Trump's success with non-traditional GOPe voters is maybe 2/3 economic and 1/3 identity.

    The media don't want to talk about the economic stuff because the media is owned by the sort of people (in the US) who have benefited most from off-shoring.

    Hence them looking for ways to forge a narrative where Trump's success is all identity or at least most identity.
  14. @Twinkie

    he has a postmodern sensibility about these things
     
    I do not know what that means - would you mind elaborating just a bit?

    that being said, he’s not the huge player he makes it out to be.
     
    You mean like where he takes credit for Trump's victory?

    He seems like a parody of some sort:

    He dresses in three-piece Brooks Brothers suits, gold-coin cuff links and $5,000 Swiss watches
     
    Geez, I don't know where to start.

    Why does he get so much time on MSM? Is it because he is not a toothless cretin who screams "white power" at every turn? Because he contradicts MSM's image of what a white nationalist is supposed to be, what with his haircut and normal looks and "Brooks Brothers suits"?

    *BB is what interns wear on the Hill and doesn't go with a "$5,000 Swiss watches." Mr. Spencer should get a different wardrobe consultant... or a visit to Savile Row in London or at least to Field English Custom Tailors in Georgetown after he eats at Maggiano's.

    Why does he get so much time on MSM?

    It serves their purpose.

    Spencer and the others like him have no mass following. They are continually in a scrum for devotees and dollars.

    Why are you so invested with this one guy.

    I have spent a fair amount of time here at Unz challenging 88s and racists in the comment sections. I don’t remember seeing you show up with many comments except occasionally where Talha has pushed back against bad information on Muslims.

    You don’t seem to be able to make distinctions. You make everything into either/or. Just like you kept insisting that I was a WN when I kept telling you that I was not.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Why are you so invested with this one guy.
     
    I am not. I commented on two threads about him, which is a miniscule fraction of the comments I have written on Unz.

    I don't appreciate the attempt or the implication to make it sound like I am obsessed with this character, which is a too clever-by-half way of ad hominem.

    You don’t seem to be able to make distinctions. You make everything into either/or. Just like you kept insisting that I was a WN when I kept telling you that I was not.
     
    I don't wish to make things personal here, but you seem to suffer from reading comprehension (of your own writing, to boot).

    Let me clarify. I do not know who you are. I do not know whether you are or are not a white nationalist. The only thing I can infer is to draw a conclusion of what you do or do not believe based on your comments.

    Earlier I wrote a short critique of Spencer's ideas and plans, which include bloody and violent ethnic cleansing. You responded by writing the following:

    If our country is devolving into strict racial and ethnic identity politics, with very little possibility of returning to our propositional ideal, and I am fearful that it is, politics and ideologies like Spencer’s are rational for whites.
     
    By your own words, you are implying that pursuing a white ethnostate and violent ethnic cleaning of non-whites is "rational for whites."

    What you wrote above would make sense if Spencer's ideology were "garden variety" pro-white advocacy. But it's not. It very clearly includes infantile fantasies of white (his, in particular) will to power and eradication of the "mud" people. And you think that's "rational for white" in a world of identity politics. I don't know what to tell you, except to say that it sounds a lot like a roundabout endorsement of Spencer's ideas if not him as a person or a leader.
  15. @Twinkie

    as for richard, he’s a problem for everyone he touched now because of his nuttiness.
     
    Is it just nuttiness? Because it strikes me as something a bit more sinister.

    For example, take a look at this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/lets-party-like-its-1933-inside-the-disturbing-alt-right-world-of-richard-spencer/2016/11/22/cf81dc74-aff7-11e6-840f-e3ebab6bcdd3_story.html

    “We need an ethno-state,” he said in a 2013 speech, “so that our people can ‘come home again,’ can live amongst family and feel safe and secure.”

    He ended his address by invoking the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.: “I have a dream.”

    Last week, Spencer was reluctant to discuss how that dream would be achieved.

    How, he was asked, in a nation with more than 100 million blacks, Asians and Latinos, could a whites-only territory be created without overwhelming violence?

    Over chocolate croissants and an Americano coffee at a Corner Bakery Cafe, he avoided the question, discussing Nietzsche, communism’s origins, history’s unpredictability.

    Then, at last, he offered an answer.

    “Look, maybe it will be horribly bloody and terrible,” he said. “That’s a possibility with everything.”
     
    Now, as I recall, Mr. Khan, I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin. Considering his answer about the "white ethno-state" leaves me with two thoughts about him - either 1) he doesn't believe what he is selling, but he says these things to attract followers who do and to garner attention (I get the sense that he is VERY image conscious) or 2) he does believe in the monstrosity he peddles - probably because he hasn't seen real bloodshed and mass violence. In other words, he is either a con-man or a juvenile, but bloodthirsty psychopath.

    And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already) and hypocrisy:

    Spencer, of course, would expel Muslims from his ethno-state. And most women, he said as he was being driven from the hotel to his next appointment, would return to their traditional role of bearing children.

    His attitude toward women and minorities made his admiration for Tila Tequila, the Nazi-loving Vietnamese American, surprising. Would he allow her in the ethno-state?

    “There are always exceptions, I guess,” an amused Spencer would say later. “I’m a generous guy.”
     
    In other words, HE gets to decide who is and is not "white" and gets to live in his ethnostate. This is an unbelievable level of deluded sense of grandeur for himself. It is also a particularly jejune expression of power-worship, like a bully with a sandbox who decides which among his friends can play in it.

    And "Let's party like it's 1933"? Good grief. My wife's late grandfather, the man I loved the most in her family and with whom I spent hours discussing war experiences, left pieces of himself in France and Germany fighting the Nazis. I think he would be sickened by the likes of him were he still alive.

    Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/

    What a moronic person. She - an ethnic Vietnamese - shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn't even know how how to spell "Sieg Heil" properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.

    Hey Twinkie,

    Honestly, the antics sound a lot like what I remember watching in the 80′s with pro-wrestling – just less sweat and guys in their chuddies.

    We have 50 states, why don’t we give a couple of contiguous ones to these guys and like-minded fellows to start their ‘new dawn’? They’ll either run it into the ground or prove out their white-ethnic paradise; either way sounds like a bonus to me. Then the rest of the country can follow suit or not, depending on results.

    I know, this is all hypothetical, but I’d like to see them at least be more local scale and practical about their grand designs. You know like call for true freedom to associate and allow for the legality of regional housing discrimination. But it seems they want the whole country all at once to take the plunge on this dream of theirs.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    We have 50 states, why don’t we give a couple of contiguous ones to these guys and like-minded fellows to start their ‘new dawn’? They’ll either run it into the ground or prove out their white-ethnic paradise; either way sounds like a bonus to me. Then the rest of the country can follow suit or not, depending on results.

    This is so off the wall ridiculous, I know you are just be satirical.

    but I’d like to see them at least be more local scale and practical about their grand designs.


    Really?
  16. @Razib Khan
    It also names you one and has a picture of you just below.

    as i said on twitter, i am not alt-right. i'm moderately conservative with libertarianish tendencies. they used the picture without asking. kind of getting annoyed by people asking me about being alt-right, a radio station even wanted me to talk about being alt-right.

    as for richard, he's a problem for everyone he touched now because of his nuttiness. i mean, is it common knowledge that he played pick-up games with brendan nyhan at duke? the list goes on...

    “as i said on twitter, i am not alt-right. i’m moderately conservative with libertarianish tendencies. ”
    I thought that the Unz Review was an alt-right site, although as a foreigner, my understanding of the American political tendencies is really limited. Is that uncorrect or are your views not in agreement with those of the other bloggers of the site?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    I thought that the Unz Review was an alt-right site, although as a foreigner, my understanding of the American political tendencies is really limited. Is that uncorrect or are your views not in agreement with those of the other bloggers of the site?



    ron posts all sorts of stuff. he has told me it is "alternative". period. but to be honest at this point a lot of the content and commenters are alt-right inflected or dominated (a lot of it is from feeds cross-posted).

    and no, in general i am not like a lot of the others who post in this space. i think that's obvious ;-)
    , @German_reader
    If you compare Unz review with Spencer's Radix journal (or indeed the stuff he wrote at Takimag a few years ago) there are obvious differences, Unz review has some loony commenters but it's comparatively moderate and has a spectrum of different viewpoints. Spencer really is pretty hardcore identitarian/WN, that was clear already 5-6 years ago.
  17. @Talha
    Hey Twinkie,

    Honestly, the antics sound a lot like what I remember watching in the 80's with pro-wrestling - just less sweat and guys in their chuddies.

    We have 50 states, why don't we give a couple of contiguous ones to these guys and like-minded fellows to start their 'new dawn'? They'll either run it into the ground or prove out their white-ethnic paradise; either way sounds like a bonus to me. Then the rest of the country can follow suit or not, depending on results.

    I know, this is all hypothetical, but I'd like to see them at least be more local scale and practical about their grand designs. You know like call for true freedom to associate and allow for the legality of regional housing discrimination. But it seems they want the whole country all at once to take the plunge on this dream of theirs.

    Peace.

    We have 50 states, why don’t we give a couple of contiguous ones to these guys and like-minded fellows to start their ‘new dawn’? They’ll either run it into the ground or prove out their white-ethnic paradise; either way sounds like a bonus to me. Then the rest of the country can follow suit or not, depending on results.

    This is so off the wall ridiculous, I know you are just be satirical.

    but I’d like to see them at least be more local scale and practical about their grand designs.

    Really?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    satirical
     
    Guilty as charged, but my proposal still seems (despite my intended hyperbole) more plausible than what they are proposing.

    Really?
     
    Sure - I mean, propose to start with an ethno-city or entho-county at least before you move onto ethno-state - doesn't that just make sense? They have a grand plan; let's see a prototype...

    Again, I'm not taking those guys too seriously at this point - which is why I made the analogy to pro-wrestling - maybe others are. The general concern that the average White person has should be taken seriously and that to me comes down to three major things:
    1) Only White people, culture and history are open game for public denigration
    2) Only Whites are not allowed to self-identify or form collectives
    3) Policies (economic and social) that favor other ethnicities to the detriment of Whites

    Did I miss out on anything major? All of these seem to be legitimate concerns - of course, the term 'White' itself is a bit elusive. I have a bit of skin in the game; all my kids look White (I mean White) since I married a woman from Swedish background. Funny thing is, they likely wouldn't be considered White by the Spencer types because they are Muslim or only half-White.

    Every group has their squeaky wheels that like to steal the show - I can't count the number of times MSM gives interviews with Anjem Chaudry. They love to distract with sensationalism.

    Peace.
  18. Neo-Nazis have been around for ages and I don’t think their numbers have greatly increased in this country recently (at least not yet), but their visibility certainly has.
    Part of this is certainly because Trump and his team (especially Breitbart) played around with the “Alt-Right” to solidify their White base (not because the White base is heavily “Alt-Right” but because they are an identity group and this kind of crap helped to signal that the campaign was willing to use this identity (partly because the group and the campaign are indeed moderately racist; perhaps partly as a reaction to two decades of Left wing promotion and use of smaller identity groups)). I doubt that the campaign really wanted to promote Nazi-like race ideas, but they certainly ended up doing that to some extent.
    A part is probably the Democrats and their political sympathizers thinking that highlighting this nasty group will smear Trump more than it actually promotes the Nazis (they may be wrong about that. Instead of “fringing” him, it more likely mainstreams them).
    And the last but not least part is probably the media’s tendency to focus on car wrecks, the nastier the better.
    The part I am not clear about is whether some deeper crisis of the modern liberal nation state (broadly defined, thus including most Republicans as well as Democrats) means this crap could actually be coming back.
    I realize these are just typical “musings”. Is there a more data-based and solidly argued article out there?

    Read More
  19. but their visibility certainly has.

    Isn’t this attributable to the changes in media?

    promote Nazi-like race ideas, but they certainly ended up doing that to some extent.

    I don’t see how the attempt by MSM to tie Trump to these groups means that the campaign was responsible for the promotion of neo-Nazism. MSM started touting these groups and individuals, not the Trump campaign.

    means this crap could actually be coming back.

    This crap can always come back. Whether it is or not is a matter of perspective, for most of MSM it is back in full force.

    Read More
  20. @Razib Khan
    i can't vouch for his sincerity. we've long been out of touch. he has a postmodern sensibility about these things, so i don't what is, and isn't, serious.

    but playacting the nationalist socialist obviously makes that all irrelevant. you don't go there. period.

    that being said, he's not the huge player he makes it out to be.

    he’s not the *yuge* player he makes it out to be

    Fixed it for ya’.

    you don’t go there. period.

    Agreed. Which hearkens back to Twinkie’s point – are these a bunch of immature adults having fun? Where do these bloggers their funding? That is the most interesting question to me. Is it all just grassroots donations?

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RaceRealist88

    That is the most interesting question to me. Is it all just grassroots donations?
     
    A lot of these people beg for donations constantly. Kind of ironic that they're looking for handouts.
  21. @iffen
    We have 50 states, why don’t we give a couple of contiguous ones to these guys and like-minded fellows to start their ‘new dawn’? They’ll either run it into the ground or prove out their white-ethnic paradise; either way sounds like a bonus to me. Then the rest of the country can follow suit or not, depending on results.

    This is so off the wall ridiculous, I know you are just be satirical.

    but I’d like to see them at least be more local scale and practical about their grand designs.


    Really?

    Hey iffen,

    satirical

    Guilty as charged, but my proposal still seems (despite my intended hyperbole) more plausible than what they are proposing.

    Really?

    Sure – I mean, propose to start with an ethno-city or entho-county at least before you move onto ethno-state – doesn’t that just make sense? They have a grand plan; let’s see a prototype…

    Again, I’m not taking those guys too seriously at this point – which is why I made the analogy to pro-wrestling – maybe others are. The general concern that the average White person has should be taken seriously and that to me comes down to three major things:
    1) Only White people, culture and history are open game for public denigration
    2) Only Whites are not allowed to self-identify or form collectives
    3) Policies (economic and social) that favor other ethnicities to the detriment of Whites

    Did I miss out on anything major? All of these seem to be legitimate concerns – of course, the term ‘White’ itself is a bit elusive. I have a bit of skin in the game; all my kids look White (I mean White) since I married a woman from Swedish background. Funny thing is, they likely wouldn’t be considered White by the Spencer types because they are Muslim or only half-White.

    Every group has their squeaky wheels that like to steal the show – I can’t count the number of times MSM gives interviews with Anjem Chaudry. They love to distract with sensationalism.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    The general concern that the average White person has should be taken seriously and that to me comes down to three major things:

    i agree.
    , @Talha
    There is a caveat to #2 that I mentioned - which again is why this whole subject is a bit elusive; namely that certain sub-groups of Whites are allowed (sometimes even encouraged) to identify. My daughter tells me she has a very active Serbian club in her high-school. This is different than, say, the French club (which she is a part of) which is language based. The Serbian club is definitely an ethnic heritage club. There is also a large Polish community in our area which self-identify and also Bosnians. Irish pubs, advertising that they are indeed an 'Irish Pub' abound.

    Peace.
    , @iffen
    Sure – I mean, propose to start with an ethno-city or entho-county at least before you move onto ethno-state – doesn’t that just make sense?

    I don’t have to tell you that it would not be constitutional. Just like it was not constitutional for the southern states to maintain apartheid lite. There are mostly white states and counties already so you can see for yourself what it might look like. :)

    1) Only White people, culture and history are open game for public denigration
    2) Only Whites are not allowed to self-identify or form collectives
    3) Policies (economic and social) that favor other ethnicities to the detriment of Whites

    Yes, and it definitely drives the growth of resentment among some whites. This resentment is not the same thing as racism or white nationalism.

    My opinion is that it is time for all AA and quotas to end. It is a legitimate political question. If we continue to have quotas, can we have upper limit quotas for Jews and Asian Americans?

    the term ‘White’ itself is a bit elusive.

    Yes, and this is one reason that it is very unlikely that Nazism and white nationalism will take off. This will not prevent politicians from exploiting racial and ethnic differences to their advantage.

  22. @Twinkie

    as for richard, he’s a problem for everyone he touched now because of his nuttiness.
     
    Is it just nuttiness? Because it strikes me as something a bit more sinister.

    For example, take a look at this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/lets-party-like-its-1933-inside-the-disturbing-alt-right-world-of-richard-spencer/2016/11/22/cf81dc74-aff7-11e6-840f-e3ebab6bcdd3_story.html

    “We need an ethno-state,” he said in a 2013 speech, “so that our people can ‘come home again,’ can live amongst family and feel safe and secure.”

    He ended his address by invoking the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.: “I have a dream.”

    Last week, Spencer was reluctant to discuss how that dream would be achieved.

    How, he was asked, in a nation with more than 100 million blacks, Asians and Latinos, could a whites-only territory be created without overwhelming violence?

    Over chocolate croissants and an Americano coffee at a Corner Bakery Cafe, he avoided the question, discussing Nietzsche, communism’s origins, history’s unpredictability.

    Then, at last, he offered an answer.

    “Look, maybe it will be horribly bloody and terrible,” he said. “That’s a possibility with everything.”
     
    Now, as I recall, Mr. Khan, I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin. Considering his answer about the "white ethno-state" leaves me with two thoughts about him - either 1) he doesn't believe what he is selling, but he says these things to attract followers who do and to garner attention (I get the sense that he is VERY image conscious) or 2) he does believe in the monstrosity he peddles - probably because he hasn't seen real bloodshed and mass violence. In other words, he is either a con-man or a juvenile, but bloodthirsty psychopath.

    And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already) and hypocrisy:

    Spencer, of course, would expel Muslims from his ethno-state. And most women, he said as he was being driven from the hotel to his next appointment, would return to their traditional role of bearing children.

    His attitude toward women and minorities made his admiration for Tila Tequila, the Nazi-loving Vietnamese American, surprising. Would he allow her in the ethno-state?

    “There are always exceptions, I guess,” an amused Spencer would say later. “I’m a generous guy.”
     
    In other words, HE gets to decide who is and is not "white" and gets to live in his ethnostate. This is an unbelievable level of deluded sense of grandeur for himself. It is also a particularly jejune expression of power-worship, like a bully with a sandbox who decides which among his friends can play in it.

    And "Let's party like it's 1933"? Good grief. My wife's late grandfather, the man I loved the most in her family and with whom I spent hours discussing war experiences, left pieces of himself in France and Germany fighting the Nazis. I think he would be sickened by the likes of him were he still alive.

    Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/

    What a moronic person. She - an ethnic Vietnamese - shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn't even know how how to spell "Sieg Heil" properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.

    I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin

    i talked with him on the phone several times and had a professional relationship with him in the late 2000s. before he was a WN. or at least he said to me he wasn’t a WN (since he had just gotten out of a relationship with an asian woman at the time i took him at his word).

    Read More
  23. @Emma
    "as i said on twitter, i am not alt-right. i’m moderately conservative with libertarianish tendencies. "
    I thought that the Unz Review was an alt-right site, although as a foreigner, my understanding of the American political tendencies is really limited. Is that uncorrect or are your views not in agreement with those of the other bloggers of the site?

    I thought that the Unz Review was an alt-right site, although as a foreigner, my understanding of the American political tendencies is really limited. Is that uncorrect or are your views not in agreement with those of the other bloggers of the site?

    ron posts all sorts of stuff. he has told me it is “alternative”. period. but to be honest at this point a lot of the content and commenters are alt-right inflected or dominated (a lot of it is from feeds cross-posted).

    and no, in general i am not like a lot of the others who post in this space. i think that’s obvious ;-)

    Read More
    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    "and no, in general i am not like a lot of the others who post in this space. i think that’s obvious"

    I agree. I love your blog. Consistently great information, no bullshit only truth and no spin. Wish everyone was like this.
  24. @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    satirical
     
    Guilty as charged, but my proposal still seems (despite my intended hyperbole) more plausible than what they are proposing.

    Really?
     
    Sure - I mean, propose to start with an ethno-city or entho-county at least before you move onto ethno-state - doesn't that just make sense? They have a grand plan; let's see a prototype...

    Again, I'm not taking those guys too seriously at this point - which is why I made the analogy to pro-wrestling - maybe others are. The general concern that the average White person has should be taken seriously and that to me comes down to three major things:
    1) Only White people, culture and history are open game for public denigration
    2) Only Whites are not allowed to self-identify or form collectives
    3) Policies (economic and social) that favor other ethnicities to the detriment of Whites

    Did I miss out on anything major? All of these seem to be legitimate concerns - of course, the term 'White' itself is a bit elusive. I have a bit of skin in the game; all my kids look White (I mean White) since I married a woman from Swedish background. Funny thing is, they likely wouldn't be considered White by the Spencer types because they are Muslim or only half-White.

    Every group has their squeaky wheels that like to steal the show - I can't count the number of times MSM gives interviews with Anjem Chaudry. They love to distract with sensationalism.

    Peace.

    The general concern that the average White person has should be taken seriously and that to me comes down to three major things:

    i agree.

    Read More
  25. @Lord Jeff Sessions

    And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already)
     
    I listened to a podcast he did and he wasn’t familiar with the idea of a disparate impact lawsuit. He’s very into this nietzschean stuff, and totally ungrounded from the real world.

    He’s very into this nietzschean stuff, and totally ungrounded from the real world.

    he’s on the front page of every major newspaper right now. how ungrounded? just saying, is he ‘crazy like a fox’?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lord Jeff Sessions
    At his conference he opened with a dramatic poetry reading set to montage of European looking things playing in the background (marble statues, forests, alps). He also designed a goofy looking alt-right logo, that was supposed to have some artistic meaning. In contrast to a lot of other people on the alt-right (or whatever you want to call that general sort of intellectual space) he doesn’t seem interested in engaging with real world issues like “head start”, housing policy, affirmative action, crime etc. That’s what I meant by "ungrounded from the real world”.

    But yes, certainly he knows how to get his name in the news. I’m curious how he is able to maintain this lifestyle, I’m sure being a professional white nationalist doesn’t pay very well. Or maybe it does, I wouldn’t know. It says on wikipedia that his dad is an opthalmologist, so is he just mooching off of him?

  26. @Talha

    he’s not the *yuge* player he makes it out to be
     
    Fixed it for ya'.

    you don’t go there. period.
     
    Agreed. Which hearkens back to Twinkie's point - are these a bunch of immature adults having fun? Where do these bloggers their funding? That is the most interesting question to me. Is it all just grassroots donations?

    Peace.

    That is the most interesting question to me. Is it all just grassroots donations?

    A lot of these people beg for donations constantly. Kind of ironic that they’re looking for handouts.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey RR88,

    A lot of these people beg for donations constantly.
     
    Which may explain why they don't miss a chance to be in the spotlight even with off-the-wall comments; free advertising!

    Peace.
  27. @Razib Khan
    I thought that the Unz Review was an alt-right site, although as a foreigner, my understanding of the American political tendencies is really limited. Is that uncorrect or are your views not in agreement with those of the other bloggers of the site?



    ron posts all sorts of stuff. he has told me it is "alternative". period. but to be honest at this point a lot of the content and commenters are alt-right inflected or dominated (a lot of it is from feeds cross-posted).

    and no, in general i am not like a lot of the others who post in this space. i think that's obvious ;-)

    “and no, in general i am not like a lot of the others who post in this space. i think that’s obvious”

    I agree. I love your blog. Consistently great information, no bullshit only truth and no spin. Wish everyone was like this.

    Read More
  28. @Twinkie

    he has a postmodern sensibility about these things
     
    I do not know what that means - would you mind elaborating just a bit?

    that being said, he’s not the huge player he makes it out to be.
     
    You mean like where he takes credit for Trump's victory?

    He seems like a parody of some sort:

    He dresses in three-piece Brooks Brothers suits, gold-coin cuff links and $5,000 Swiss watches
     
    Geez, I don't know where to start.

    Why does he get so much time on MSM? Is it because he is not a toothless cretin who screams "white power" at every turn? Because he contradicts MSM's image of what a white nationalist is supposed to be, what with his haircut and normal looks and "Brooks Brothers suits"?

    *BB is what interns wear on the Hill and doesn't go with a "$5,000 Swiss watches." Mr. Spencer should get a different wardrobe consultant... or a visit to Savile Row in London or at least to Field English Custom Tailors in Georgetown after he eats at Maggiano's.

    I do not know what that means – would you mind elaborating just a bit?

    i mean that he is obviously working in some ways to shock people. not because he thinks what he says is true, but because it will alter the nature of the discourse. i mean, we’re talking about him here.

    Read More
  29. re, $, some of them, more than you expect, have family wealth, or a fixed income of some sort. richard is in that case. i would say he’s “lower upper class”, but above “upper middle class.” kevin macdonald has a university pension. etc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bill P
    That was my impression. In fact, I thought he was a ski bum from Whitefish (am I wrong about that?). When he tried to get me to give him my blog I asked him "for what?" and he seemed to think people just traded their work as some sort of courtesy. That was the only and last contact I had with him, and I came away from it thinking he lives in an entirely different world from my own. You know, the world where you have to worry about how you're going to pay your bills and thereby stay under a roof and out of jail.
  30. @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    satirical
     
    Guilty as charged, but my proposal still seems (despite my intended hyperbole) more plausible than what they are proposing.

    Really?
     
    Sure - I mean, propose to start with an ethno-city or entho-county at least before you move onto ethno-state - doesn't that just make sense? They have a grand plan; let's see a prototype...

    Again, I'm not taking those guys too seriously at this point - which is why I made the analogy to pro-wrestling - maybe others are. The general concern that the average White person has should be taken seriously and that to me comes down to three major things:
    1) Only White people, culture and history are open game for public denigration
    2) Only Whites are not allowed to self-identify or form collectives
    3) Policies (economic and social) that favor other ethnicities to the detriment of Whites

    Did I miss out on anything major? All of these seem to be legitimate concerns - of course, the term 'White' itself is a bit elusive. I have a bit of skin in the game; all my kids look White (I mean White) since I married a woman from Swedish background. Funny thing is, they likely wouldn't be considered White by the Spencer types because they are Muslim or only half-White.

    Every group has their squeaky wheels that like to steal the show - I can't count the number of times MSM gives interviews with Anjem Chaudry. They love to distract with sensationalism.

    Peace.

    There is a caveat to #2 that I mentioned – which again is why this whole subject is a bit elusive; namely that certain sub-groups of Whites are allowed (sometimes even encouraged) to identify. My daughter tells me she has a very active Serbian club in her high-school. This is different than, say, the French club (which she is a part of) which is language based. The Serbian club is definitely an ethnic heritage club. There is also a large Polish community in our area which self-identify and also Bosnians. Irish pubs, advertising that they are indeed an ‘Irish Pub’ abound.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Slon
    You beat me to this point, but I feel it needs to be emphasized and elaborated. Not only do we have clubs and associations for just about every white subgroup, there are also businesses, holidays, scholarships, etc. The trade association for my industry holds its meetings in a Swedish Cultural Center. None of this is challenged by anyone. On the other hand, White identity with a capital W is a construct that historically has been activated almost exclusively in a racial supremacist context, which is why associations built around White identity are perceived as problematic.
  31. @Emma
    "as i said on twitter, i am not alt-right. i’m moderately conservative with libertarianish tendencies. "
    I thought that the Unz Review was an alt-right site, although as a foreigner, my understanding of the American political tendencies is really limited. Is that uncorrect or are your views not in agreement with those of the other bloggers of the site?

    If you compare Unz review with Spencer’s Radix journal (or indeed the stuff he wrote at Takimag a few years ago) there are obvious differences, Unz review has some loony commenters but it’s comparatively moderate and has a spectrum of different viewpoints. Spencer really is pretty hardcore identitarian/WN, that was clear already 5-6 years ago.

    Read More
  32. @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    satirical
     
    Guilty as charged, but my proposal still seems (despite my intended hyperbole) more plausible than what they are proposing.

    Really?
     
    Sure - I mean, propose to start with an ethno-city or entho-county at least before you move onto ethno-state - doesn't that just make sense? They have a grand plan; let's see a prototype...

    Again, I'm not taking those guys too seriously at this point - which is why I made the analogy to pro-wrestling - maybe others are. The general concern that the average White person has should be taken seriously and that to me comes down to three major things:
    1) Only White people, culture and history are open game for public denigration
    2) Only Whites are not allowed to self-identify or form collectives
    3) Policies (economic and social) that favor other ethnicities to the detriment of Whites

    Did I miss out on anything major? All of these seem to be legitimate concerns - of course, the term 'White' itself is a bit elusive. I have a bit of skin in the game; all my kids look White (I mean White) since I married a woman from Swedish background. Funny thing is, they likely wouldn't be considered White by the Spencer types because they are Muslim or only half-White.

    Every group has their squeaky wheels that like to steal the show - I can't count the number of times MSM gives interviews with Anjem Chaudry. They love to distract with sensationalism.

    Peace.

    Sure – I mean, propose to start with an ethno-city or entho-county at least before you move onto ethno-state – doesn’t that just make sense?

    I don’t have to tell you that it would not be constitutional. Just like it was not constitutional for the southern states to maintain apartheid lite. There are mostly white states and counties already so you can see for yourself what it might look like. :)

    1) Only White people, culture and history are open game for public denigration
    2) Only Whites are not allowed to self-identify or form collectives
    3) Policies (economic and social) that favor other ethnicities to the detriment of Whites

    Yes, and it definitely drives the growth of resentment among some whites. This resentment is not the same thing as racism or white nationalism.

    My opinion is that it is time for all AA and quotas to end. It is a legitimate political question. If we continue to have quotas, can we have upper limit quotas for Jews and Asian Americans?

    the term ‘White’ itself is a bit elusive.

    Yes, and this is one reason that it is very unlikely that Nazism and white nationalism will take off. This will not prevent politicians from exploiting racial and ethnic differences to their advantage.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    Yes, and this is one reason that it is very unlikely that Nazism and white nationalism will take off. This will not prevent politicians from exploiting racial and ethnic differences to their advantage.



    one of the things that annoys me about "white nationalists" is that they racialize islam. obviously there are bosniaks who are 'whiter' (in complexion) than a lot of southern europeans. they just need to be more explicit that one has to be from a christian/post-christian background.
  33. @RaceRealist88

    That is the most interesting question to me. Is it all just grassroots donations?
     
    A lot of these people beg for donations constantly. Kind of ironic that they're looking for handouts.

    Hey RR88,

    A lot of these people beg for donations constantly.

    Which may explain why they don’t miss a chance to be in the spotlight even with off-the-wall comments; free advertising!

    Peace.

    Read More
  34. @iffen
    Sure – I mean, propose to start with an ethno-city or entho-county at least before you move onto ethno-state – doesn’t that just make sense?

    I don’t have to tell you that it would not be constitutional. Just like it was not constitutional for the southern states to maintain apartheid lite. There are mostly white states and counties already so you can see for yourself what it might look like. :)

    1) Only White people, culture and history are open game for public denigration
    2) Only Whites are not allowed to self-identify or form collectives
    3) Policies (economic and social) that favor other ethnicities to the detriment of Whites

    Yes, and it definitely drives the growth of resentment among some whites. This resentment is not the same thing as racism or white nationalism.

    My opinion is that it is time for all AA and quotas to end. It is a legitimate political question. If we continue to have quotas, can we have upper limit quotas for Jews and Asian Americans?

    the term ‘White’ itself is a bit elusive.

    Yes, and this is one reason that it is very unlikely that Nazism and white nationalism will take off. This will not prevent politicians from exploiting racial and ethnic differences to their advantage.

    Yes, and this is one reason that it is very unlikely that Nazism and white nationalism will take off. This will not prevent politicians from exploiting racial and ethnic differences to their advantage.

    one of the things that annoys me about “white nationalists” is that they racialize islam. obviously there are bosniaks who are ‘whiter’ (in complexion) than a lot of southern europeans. they just need to be more explicit that one has to be from a christian/post-christian background.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    At first I thought annoy was an odd description but I think it fits. Obviously they can't come up with any rational definition of who qualifies. What do they do with ME peoples who are Christian? Some say Jews are white, Chinese are okay with some, it is completely arbitrary. I am not going to belong to any club where the membership qualifications are not transparent.
  35. Hey Razib,

    obviously there are bosniaks who are ‘whiter’ (in complexion) than a lot of southern europeans.

    The Bosnians in our area could pass for Nordics any day of the week. And the religious ones are quite – uh – fecund; they are giving the Indo-paks and Arabs a run for their money. Lots of little green/blue-eyed, freckled, blonde Muslim kids running around in the mosque I frequent.

    They still have a tough time with our food though – low spice tolerance.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    "The Prophet, PBUH, sayeth that the men who shall not consumeth the spice in proportions which induce sweat upon the faith, they shall burn in hellfire in recompense." - Al Bukhari
  36. @Talha
    Hey Razib,

    obviously there are bosniaks who are ‘whiter’ (in complexion) than a lot of southern europeans.
     
    The Bosnians in our area could pass for Nordics any day of the week. And the religious ones are quite - uh - fecund; they are giving the Indo-paks and Arabs a run for their money. Lots of little green/blue-eyed, freckled, blonde Muslim kids running around in the mosque I frequent.

    They still have a tough time with our food though - low spice tolerance.

    Peace.

    “The Prophet, PBUH, sayeth that the men who shall not consumeth the spice in proportions which induce sweat upon the faith, they shall burn in hellfire in recompense.” – Al Bukhari

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    That ain't even a weak hadith! ;)

    But hey, you know, you gotta face the *heat* - either in this world or the next! By the way, I just finished off my jar of achar last night, gotta get some more:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=achar&espv=2&biw=1229&bih=608&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXu7vWz7_QAhWKqlQKHVweAkYQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1.56

    I don't know if Bengalis are into achar, but since I have to refill, any suggestions?

    'He who controls the spice controls the universe.' - Dune

    Peace.

    Now this, ladies and gentlemen, is how you subtely bring a thread back to food where it started!
  37. @Razib Khan
    "The Prophet, PBUH, sayeth that the men who shall not consumeth the spice in proportions which induce sweat upon the faith, they shall burn in hellfire in recompense." - Al Bukhari

    That ain’t even a weak hadith! ;)

    But hey, you know, you gotta face the *heat* – either in this world or the next! By the way, I just finished off my jar of achar last night, gotta get some more:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=achar&espv=2&biw=1229&bih=608&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXu7vWz7_QAhWKqlQKHVweAkYQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1.56

    I don’t know if Bengalis are into achar, but since I have to refill, any suggestions?

    ‘He who controls the spice controls the universe.’ – Dune

    Peace.

    Now this, ladies and gentlemen, is how you subtely bring a thread back to food where it started!

    Read More
  38. @Talha
    That ain't even a weak hadith! ;)

    But hey, you know, you gotta face the *heat* - either in this world or the next! By the way, I just finished off my jar of achar last night, gotta get some more:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=achar&espv=2&biw=1229&bih=608&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiXu7vWz7_QAhWKqlQKHVweAkYQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1.56

    I don't know if Bengalis are into achar, but since I have to refill, any suggestions?

    'He who controls the spice controls the universe.' - Dune

    Peace.

    Now this, ladies and gentlemen, is how you subtely bring a thread back to food where it started!

    all good men eat achaar!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Bringing it back to food - Thanksgiving is around the bend after all - halal turkey!!!

    Anyway, so you know what achar is - awesome! Any good brands from the Bengali side of the border you can suggest? Nothing with pickled fish though - I got my limits! I found a Bangladeshi store (fish mart of course!) not too far from me that I was going to checkout.

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sundarbans-Fish-Bazar/145522465480625

    Peace.
  39. @Razib Khan
    Yes, and this is one reason that it is very unlikely that Nazism and white nationalism will take off. This will not prevent politicians from exploiting racial and ethnic differences to their advantage.



    one of the things that annoys me about "white nationalists" is that they racialize islam. obviously there are bosniaks who are 'whiter' (in complexion) than a lot of southern europeans. they just need to be more explicit that one has to be from a christian/post-christian background.

    At first I thought annoy was an odd description but I think it fits. Obviously they can’t come up with any rational definition of who qualifies. What do they do with ME peoples who are Christian? Some say Jews are white, Chinese are okay with some, it is completely arbitrary. I am not going to belong to any club where the membership qualifications are not transparent.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    ME xtians occupy weird position. the racialist 'kinist' movement often cites rushdoony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rousas_Rushdoony but genetically as an armenian he'd be more distinct from most europeans than any balkan xtian is likely to be (whether albanian, rumelian turk, or slav).

    anyway, i'm a geneticist. so this sort of thing would annoy me of course.
    , @Anonymous
    Simply has to do with immediate convenience.

    Yiddish speaking and genetically half European Ashkenazis were considered Semites, but Afro-Asiatic Kabyles with no recent European ancestry of any sort were considered lost Aryans.
    Or Japanese being honorary Aryans. Or even more more funnily, the actual Semite Grand Mufti of Jerusalem being granted honorary Aryan status.

    The same is happening now. With people like that Viet pornstar being considered honorary white, or that half-Iranian white nationalist Jason Reza being considered so as well. In fact, those honorary whites have more value for white nationalists than whites, at least for now.

    'Race' is just an expedient vehicle for them to invent necessary in-groups and out-groups that serve their agenda. And as soon as reality clashes with their idealized vision of their in-group, like white Balkanites being Muslims, they become Turk/Arab or whatever rape-babies, despite the fact that Bosnians are genetically more European than almost all Southern Europeans.
  40. @iffen
    At first I thought annoy was an odd description but I think it fits. Obviously they can't come up with any rational definition of who qualifies. What do they do with ME peoples who are Christian? Some say Jews are white, Chinese are okay with some, it is completely arbitrary. I am not going to belong to any club where the membership qualifications are not transparent.

    ME xtians occupy weird position. the racialist ‘kinist’ movement often cites rushdoony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rousas_Rushdoony but genetically as an armenian he’d be more distinct from most europeans than any balkan xtian is likely to be (whether albanian, rumelian turk, or slav).

    anyway, i’m a geneticist. so this sort of thing would annoy me of course.

    Read More
  41. @Talha
    There is a caveat to #2 that I mentioned - which again is why this whole subject is a bit elusive; namely that certain sub-groups of Whites are allowed (sometimes even encouraged) to identify. My daughter tells me she has a very active Serbian club in her high-school. This is different than, say, the French club (which she is a part of) which is language based. The Serbian club is definitely an ethnic heritage club. There is also a large Polish community in our area which self-identify and also Bosnians. Irish pubs, advertising that they are indeed an 'Irish Pub' abound.

    Peace.

    You beat me to this point, but I feel it needs to be emphasized and elaborated. Not only do we have clubs and associations for just about every white subgroup, there are also businesses, holidays, scholarships, etc. The trade association for my industry holds its meetings in a Swedish Cultural Center. None of this is challenged by anyone. On the other hand, White identity with a capital W is a construct that historically has been activated almost exclusively in a racial supremacist context, which is why associations built around White identity are perceived as problematic.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    As you say , white identity would be a new construction. Nazism does not qualify because they excluded many whites, Slavs for example. Looking at the history of the US it is clear enough that many races and ethnicities were given 2nd class treatment. There must be a fear that if whites coalesce as one identity they would again treat all non-whites (however this gets defined) as 2nd class citizens. This in spite of the fact that whites have been in the forefront of eliminating 2nd class citizenship. I don't think you can create a new "identity" based on white in the US. Maybe someday if whites are a small minority.

    White identity with a capital W is a construct that historically has been activated almost exclusively in a racial supremacist context

    I see these as always fringe groups. Where have "White" supremacist ever ruled?
    , @Talha
    Hey Slon,

    These are excellent points. I have wondered, is it because these guys are a bit confused or too mixed to belong to any specific subgroup (Welsh, Irish, Italian, Basque, etc.) and thus 'White' is their only meaningful identity? I mean, is that enough to unite them? It hasn't been enough to unite Europe for centuries (or keep them from plowing over each other's cities every few decades). Maybe this works only in the American context where all these White subgroups can coalesce. To me, 'White' truly only takes on any meaning when contrasted to non-Whites (but they aren't even sure who those are or aren't). I mean Chechens are White - heck, they are from the Caucasus! - but they wouldn't really be invited to the 'Whites-only' party.

    It's kind of like Black - if you know the difference between say a Sengalese vs African American - then you know that it is likely easier for the Sengalese immigrant to marry a Punjabi immigrant than it is an African American.

    To me, this is all fine; if one want to start a generic 'White' club - well, more power to you, have fun! Something tells me, the 'White' club qualifications will be quite arbitrary and whimsical - as iffen and others pointed out.

    Anyway...it gets complicated once you dig further...far more complicated and the incoherence* starts bubbling to the surface.

    Peace.

    *Note: Incoherence here refers to the ideas of the WNs, not the legitimate concerns I mentioned before.
  42. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @iffen
    At first I thought annoy was an odd description but I think it fits. Obviously they can't come up with any rational definition of who qualifies. What do they do with ME peoples who are Christian? Some say Jews are white, Chinese are okay with some, it is completely arbitrary. I am not going to belong to any club where the membership qualifications are not transparent.

    Simply has to do with immediate convenience.

    Yiddish speaking and genetically half European Ashkenazis were considered Semites, but Afro-Asiatic Kabyles with no recent European ancestry of any sort were considered lost Aryans.
    Or Japanese being honorary Aryans. Or even more more funnily, the actual Semite Grand Mufti of Jerusalem being granted honorary Aryan status.

    The same is happening now. With people like that Viet pornstar being considered honorary white, or that half-Iranian white nationalist Jason Reza being considered so as well. In fact, those honorary whites have more value for white nationalists than whites, at least for now.

    ‘Race’ is just an expedient vehicle for them to invent necessary in-groups and out-groups that serve their agenda. And as soon as reality clashes with their idealized vision of their in-group, like white Balkanites being Muslims, they become Turk/Arab or whatever rape-babies, despite the fact that Bosnians are genetically more European than almost all Southern Europeans.

    Read More
  43. @Slon
    You beat me to this point, but I feel it needs to be emphasized and elaborated. Not only do we have clubs and associations for just about every white subgroup, there are also businesses, holidays, scholarships, etc. The trade association for my industry holds its meetings in a Swedish Cultural Center. None of this is challenged by anyone. On the other hand, White identity with a capital W is a construct that historically has been activated almost exclusively in a racial supremacist context, which is why associations built around White identity are perceived as problematic.

    As you say , white identity would be a new construction. Nazism does not qualify because they excluded many whites, Slavs for example. Looking at the history of the US it is clear enough that many races and ethnicities were given 2nd class treatment. There must be a fear that if whites coalesce as one identity they would again treat all non-whites (however this gets defined) as 2nd class citizens. This in spite of the fact that whites have been in the forefront of eliminating 2nd class citizenship. I don’t think you can create a new “identity” based on white in the US. Maybe someday if whites are a small minority.

    White identity with a capital W is a construct that historically has been activated almost exclusively in a racial supremacist context

    I see these as always fringe groups. Where have “White” supremacist ever ruled?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Slon

    I see these as always fringe groups. Where have “White” supremacist ever ruled?
     
    American slavery, Jim Crow, apartheid... I agree that post-1970s White identity movements have been pushed to the fringe, but in US they have been recently coalescing in an inchoate (so far) way partly as a reaction to demographic shifts and contemporary identity politics. And yes, the boundaries of White identity are fluid and often conflicting among these movements.

    My basic point was that it is misleading to state that whites are not permitted to associate. Plenty of perfectly acceptable associations are built around identities that are exclusively white.
  44. @Razib Khan
    He’s very into this nietzschean stuff, and totally ungrounded from the real world.

    he's on the front page of every major newspaper right now. how ungrounded? just saying, is he 'crazy like a fox'?

    At his conference he opened with a dramatic poetry reading set to montage of European looking things playing in the background (marble statues, forests, alps). He also designed a goofy looking alt-right logo, that was supposed to have some artistic meaning. In contrast to a lot of other people on the alt-right (or whatever you want to call that general sort of intellectual space) he doesn’t seem interested in engaging with real world issues like “head start”, housing policy, affirmative action, crime etc. That’s what I meant by “ungrounded from the real world”.

    But yes, certainly he knows how to get his name in the news. I’m curious how he is able to maintain this lifestyle, I’m sure being a professional white nationalist doesn’t pay very well. Or maybe it does, I wouldn’t know. It says on wikipedia that his dad is an opthalmologist, so is he just mooching off of him?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    1) he is focused on 'metapolitics'. richard's issue set orientation is actually not very conservative (he is a prochoice agnostic who is tolerant of gays, for example). he admits this. basically if you are white, it's all right, as long as you aren't anti-white.

    2) richard has family money on both sides that he can tap into from what i recall. it's not just that his father is a medical doctor. i believe he co-owns an apt. complex in montana with his mother, so he literally collects rents!

    3) richard has connections to deep pocketed elements of the racialist right (regnery family money).

    4) finally, $5,000 watch and ski club memberships aside, richard is (was?) pretty OK with living a more spartan bohemian life in keeping with his nontraditional career path. back when he ran taki's he lived in brooklyn.

  45. @Slon
    You beat me to this point, but I feel it needs to be emphasized and elaborated. Not only do we have clubs and associations for just about every white subgroup, there are also businesses, holidays, scholarships, etc. The trade association for my industry holds its meetings in a Swedish Cultural Center. None of this is challenged by anyone. On the other hand, White identity with a capital W is a construct that historically has been activated almost exclusively in a racial supremacist context, which is why associations built around White identity are perceived as problematic.

    Hey Slon,

    These are excellent points. I have wondered, is it because these guys are a bit confused or too mixed to belong to any specific subgroup (Welsh, Irish, Italian, Basque, etc.) and thus ‘White’ is their only meaningful identity? I mean, is that enough to unite them? It hasn’t been enough to unite Europe for centuries (or keep them from plowing over each other’s cities every few decades). Maybe this works only in the American context where all these White subgroups can coalesce. To me, ‘White’ truly only takes on any meaning when contrasted to non-Whites (but they aren’t even sure who those are or aren’t). I mean Chechens are White – heck, they are from the Caucasus! – but they wouldn’t really be invited to the ‘Whites-only’ party.

    It’s kind of like Black – if you know the difference between say a Sengalese vs African American – then you know that it is likely easier for the Sengalese immigrant to marry a Punjabi immigrant than it is an African American.

    To me, this is all fine; if one want to start a generic ‘White’ club – well, more power to you, have fun! Something tells me, the ‘White’ club qualifications will be quite arbitrary and whimsical – as iffen and others pointed out.

    Anyway…it gets complicated once you dig further…far more complicated and the incoherence* starts bubbling to the surface.

    Peace.

    *Note: Incoherence here refers to the ideas of the WNs, not the legitimate concerns I mentioned before.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Slon

    is that enough to unite them?
     
    It will be if Whiteness is constituted as a cultural/social/political/economic identity. Things seem to be moving in that direction but we shall see.
    , @iffen
    I have wondered, is it because these guys are a bit confused or too mixed to belong to any specific subgroup (Welsh, Irish, Italian, Basque, etc.) and thus ‘White’ is their only meaningful identity?

    Good point Talha, I have wondered about this as well.
    In my limited experience, I have known a few ethnic whites and some of them didn’t take 2nd place to some of my down home peeps in their contempt for anyone they considered non-white, so this would only be part of the story.

    a generic ‘White’ club


    This would be so self-conscious and awkward. I don’t see how someone could pull it off with a straight face.

    I made a statement to commenter Slon that has set me to thinking as to whether I was correct in my assumptions. These WNs must be retrofitting history so as to make countries like Great Britain into a “White” nation. Pax Brittanica wasn’t put together by the British but by white people. By the same token the SJWs and their followers must view it the same and have a collective social memory like Steve says of the Jews who are always hearing the Cossacks coming, but the SJWs always see white supremacists coming.

    Reading a great book on The Reformation (already learned about whether it should be reformation, The Reformation, or reformations). I just finished reading about the German Peasant War of 1525. Really deadly, my peeps with pitchforks and sickles going up against artillery and heavy cavalry didn’t have a chance.
    , @syonredux

    To me, ‘White’ truly only takes on any meaning when contrasted to non-Whites
     
    Isn't that how identities always work?Identity depends upon contrast. If everyone in the USA were Black/Sub-Saharan African, "Blackness" would swiftly lose salience, while intra-Black identities (West Indian, Nigerian, etc) would suddenly loom large.
  46. @Lord Jeff Sessions
    At his conference he opened with a dramatic poetry reading set to montage of European looking things playing in the background (marble statues, forests, alps). He also designed a goofy looking alt-right logo, that was supposed to have some artistic meaning. In contrast to a lot of other people on the alt-right (or whatever you want to call that general sort of intellectual space) he doesn’t seem interested in engaging with real world issues like “head start”, housing policy, affirmative action, crime etc. That’s what I meant by "ungrounded from the real world”.

    But yes, certainly he knows how to get his name in the news. I’m curious how he is able to maintain this lifestyle, I’m sure being a professional white nationalist doesn’t pay very well. Or maybe it does, I wouldn’t know. It says on wikipedia that his dad is an opthalmologist, so is he just mooching off of him?

    1) he is focused on ‘metapolitics’. richard’s issue set orientation is actually not very conservative (he is a prochoice agnostic who is tolerant of gays, for example). he admits this. basically if you are white, it’s all right, as long as you aren’t anti-white.

    2) richard has family money on both sides that he can tap into from what i recall. it’s not just that his father is a medical doctor. i believe he co-owns an apt. complex in montana with his mother, so he literally collects rents!

    3) richard has connections to deep pocketed elements of the racialist right (regnery family money).

    4) finally, $5,000 watch and ski club memberships aside, richard is (was?) pretty OK with living a more spartan bohemian life in keeping with his nontraditional career path. back when he ran taki’s he lived in brooklyn.

    Read More
  47. @Razib Khan
    all good men eat achaar!

    Bringing it back to food – Thanksgiving is around the bend after all – halal turkey!!!

    Anyway, so you know what achar is – awesome! Any good brands from the Bengali side of the border you can suggest? Nothing with pickled fish though – I got my limits! I found a Bangladeshi store (fish mart of course!) not too far from me that I was going to checkout.

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sundarbans-Fish-Bazar/145522465480625

    Peace.

    Read More
  48. @iffen
    As you say , white identity would be a new construction. Nazism does not qualify because they excluded many whites, Slavs for example. Looking at the history of the US it is clear enough that many races and ethnicities were given 2nd class treatment. There must be a fear that if whites coalesce as one identity they would again treat all non-whites (however this gets defined) as 2nd class citizens. This in spite of the fact that whites have been in the forefront of eliminating 2nd class citizenship. I don't think you can create a new "identity" based on white in the US. Maybe someday if whites are a small minority.

    White identity with a capital W is a construct that historically has been activated almost exclusively in a racial supremacist context

    I see these as always fringe groups. Where have "White" supremacist ever ruled?

    I see these as always fringe groups. Where have “White” supremacist ever ruled?

    American slavery, Jim Crow, apartheid… I agree that post-1970s White identity movements have been pushed to the fringe, but in US they have been recently coalescing in an inchoate (so far) way partly as a reaction to demographic shifts and contemporary identity politics. And yes, the boundaries of White identity are fluid and often conflicting among these movements.

    My basic point was that it is misleading to state that whites are not permitted to associate. Plenty of perfectly acceptable associations are built around identities that are exclusively white.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Plenty of perfectly acceptable associations are built around identities that are exclusively white.

    Are you talking about activities that are created by and appeal primarily to whites. Are there "whites only" organizations? How do they define white?
    , @syonredux

    My basic point was that it is misleading to state that whites are not permitted to associate. Plenty of perfectly acceptable associations are built around identities that are exclusively white.
     
    Sure, but the contrast lies in the fact that Euro-Americans are only allowed small-scale groupings (Irish, Italian, Greek, etc), whereas Blacks, East Asians, and Latin Americans are allowed to form massive identity-based organizations (National Council of La Raza, NAACP, etc).
  49. @Talha
    Hey Slon,

    These are excellent points. I have wondered, is it because these guys are a bit confused or too mixed to belong to any specific subgroup (Welsh, Irish, Italian, Basque, etc.) and thus 'White' is their only meaningful identity? I mean, is that enough to unite them? It hasn't been enough to unite Europe for centuries (or keep them from plowing over each other's cities every few decades). Maybe this works only in the American context where all these White subgroups can coalesce. To me, 'White' truly only takes on any meaning when contrasted to non-Whites (but they aren't even sure who those are or aren't). I mean Chechens are White - heck, they are from the Caucasus! - but they wouldn't really be invited to the 'Whites-only' party.

    It's kind of like Black - if you know the difference between say a Sengalese vs African American - then you know that it is likely easier for the Sengalese immigrant to marry a Punjabi immigrant than it is an African American.

    To me, this is all fine; if one want to start a generic 'White' club - well, more power to you, have fun! Something tells me, the 'White' club qualifications will be quite arbitrary and whimsical - as iffen and others pointed out.

    Anyway...it gets complicated once you dig further...far more complicated and the incoherence* starts bubbling to the surface.

    Peace.

    *Note: Incoherence here refers to the ideas of the WNs, not the legitimate concerns I mentioned before.

    is that enough to unite them?

    It will be if Whiteness is constituted as a cultural/social/political/economic identity. Things seem to be moving in that direction but we shall see.

    Read More
  50. @Talha
    Hey Slon,

    These are excellent points. I have wondered, is it because these guys are a bit confused or too mixed to belong to any specific subgroup (Welsh, Irish, Italian, Basque, etc.) and thus 'White' is their only meaningful identity? I mean, is that enough to unite them? It hasn't been enough to unite Europe for centuries (or keep them from plowing over each other's cities every few decades). Maybe this works only in the American context where all these White subgroups can coalesce. To me, 'White' truly only takes on any meaning when contrasted to non-Whites (but they aren't even sure who those are or aren't). I mean Chechens are White - heck, they are from the Caucasus! - but they wouldn't really be invited to the 'Whites-only' party.

    It's kind of like Black - if you know the difference between say a Sengalese vs African American - then you know that it is likely easier for the Sengalese immigrant to marry a Punjabi immigrant than it is an African American.

    To me, this is all fine; if one want to start a generic 'White' club - well, more power to you, have fun! Something tells me, the 'White' club qualifications will be quite arbitrary and whimsical - as iffen and others pointed out.

    Anyway...it gets complicated once you dig further...far more complicated and the incoherence* starts bubbling to the surface.

    Peace.

    *Note: Incoherence here refers to the ideas of the WNs, not the legitimate concerns I mentioned before.

    I have wondered, is it because these guys are a bit confused or too mixed to belong to any specific subgroup (Welsh, Irish, Italian, Basque, etc.) and thus ‘White’ is their only meaningful identity?

    Good point Talha, I have wondered about this as well.
    In my limited experience, I have known a few ethnic whites and some of them didn’t take 2nd place to some of my down home peeps in their contempt for anyone they considered non-white, so this would only be part of the story.

    a generic ‘White’ club

    This would be so self-conscious and awkward. I don’t see how someone could pull it off with a straight face.

    I made a statement to commenter Slon that has set me to thinking as to whether I was correct in my assumptions. These WNs must be retrofitting history so as to make countries like Great Britain into a “White” nation. Pax Brittanica wasn’t put together by the British but by white people. By the same token the SJWs and their followers must view it the same and have a collective social memory like Steve says of the Jews who are always hearing the Cossacks coming, but the SJWs always see white supremacists coming.

    Reading a great book on The Reformation (already learned about whether it should be reformation, The Reformation, or reformations). I just finished reading about the German Peasant War of 1525. Really deadly, my peeps with pitchforks and sickles going up against artillery and heavy cavalry didn’t have a chance.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    This would be so self-conscious and awkward. I don’t see how someone could pull it off with a straight face.
     
    Well, people are trying to do the same with East Asians and people from North Africa and the Middle East (cf the "MENA" movement)....
    , @syonredux

    These WNs must be retrofitting history so as to make countries like Great Britain into a “White” nation. Pax Brittanica wasn’t put together by the British but by white people.
     
    Bears repeating: WNs are essentially mirror images (or maybe "photo negatives"?) of Black Nationalists. Just as every African is the heir of Egypt, so, too, is every European the heir of Greece and Rome.


    Further point: The PC Left sees the world in essentially the same terms as WNs. WNs divide the world between "White people" and non-Whites. To the PC Left, everything is a struggle between People of Color (POC) and Whites.It's all very Manichean.
  51. @Twinkie

    he has a postmodern sensibility about these things
     
    I do not know what that means - would you mind elaborating just a bit?

    that being said, he’s not the huge player he makes it out to be.
     
    You mean like where he takes credit for Trump's victory?

    He seems like a parody of some sort:

    He dresses in three-piece Brooks Brothers suits, gold-coin cuff links and $5,000 Swiss watches
     
    Geez, I don't know where to start.

    Why does he get so much time on MSM? Is it because he is not a toothless cretin who screams "white power" at every turn? Because he contradicts MSM's image of what a white nationalist is supposed to be, what with his haircut and normal looks and "Brooks Brothers suits"?

    *BB is what interns wear on the Hill and doesn't go with a "$5,000 Swiss watches." Mr. Spencer should get a different wardrobe consultant... or a visit to Savile Row in London or at least to Field English Custom Tailors in Georgetown after he eats at Maggiano's.

    It’s not just the MSM that built him up. That Breitbart piece I mentioned points to Spencer as one of the intellectual leaders of the alt-right. They’re trying to pretend that never happened now, but it did. Spencer was someone a lot of alt-right folks were happy to point to before the full extent of his views became so widely known. And he had his profile from Taki’s. Obviously not the biggest fish in the world but I don’t think the association is entirely unfair here, at least not for Breitbart and Milos.

    – that applies to your comments there too. It wasn’t just the MSM giving this guy a platform years ago.

    @Razib

    That sucks.

    One thing on the white nationalist/supremacist front – I’d point out that a lot of those types (including Bannon) are pretty anti-Catholic too. So the view of what “white” is can be even narrower than just Christian, and more WASP.

    Read More
  52. @Slon

    I see these as always fringe groups. Where have “White” supremacist ever ruled?
     
    American slavery, Jim Crow, apartheid... I agree that post-1970s White identity movements have been pushed to the fringe, but in US they have been recently coalescing in an inchoate (so far) way partly as a reaction to demographic shifts and contemporary identity politics. And yes, the boundaries of White identity are fluid and often conflicting among these movements.

    My basic point was that it is misleading to state that whites are not permitted to associate. Plenty of perfectly acceptable associations are built around identities that are exclusively white.

    Plenty of perfectly acceptable associations are built around identities that are exclusively white.

    Are you talking about activities that are created by and appeal primarily to whites. Are there “whites only” organizations? How do they define white?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Slon

    Are there “whites only” organizations? How do they define white?
     
    I was referring to my and Talha's examples: Swedish Cultural Center, Serbian Club, The Polish House, St. Patrick's Day, French-American scholarship fund, etc. Some are more exclusive than others, but what isn't? Wasn't there a black guy who joined the KKK? And Tila Tequila is apparently sieg heiling with the best of them. Anyways, all these are centered around white identities.
  53. These WNs must be retrofitting history so as to make countries like Great Britain into a “White” nation.

    It will be interesting to see if European nationalist movements continue their cooperation if (when?) they gain power. Of course it’s probably all just alliances of convenience so means nothing, but it would be ironic if, as they destroy the EU project, WNs internalized EU’s European identity and reformulated it as pan-European White identity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    as pan-European White identity.

    Even less likely than a pan-Arabic identity.

    I am having quite a cognitive hiccup with the white nationalist, white supremacist, American slavery conundrum.

  54. @Slon

    I see these as always fringe groups. Where have “White” supremacist ever ruled?
     
    American slavery, Jim Crow, apartheid... I agree that post-1970s White identity movements have been pushed to the fringe, but in US they have been recently coalescing in an inchoate (so far) way partly as a reaction to demographic shifts and contemporary identity politics. And yes, the boundaries of White identity are fluid and often conflicting among these movements.

    My basic point was that it is misleading to state that whites are not permitted to associate. Plenty of perfectly acceptable associations are built around identities that are exclusively white.

    My basic point was that it is misleading to state that whites are not permitted to associate. Plenty of perfectly acceptable associations are built around identities that are exclusively white.

    Sure, but the contrast lies in the fact that Euro-Americans are only allowed small-scale groupings (Irish, Italian, Greek, etc), whereas Blacks, East Asians, and Latin Americans are allowed to form massive identity-based organizations (National Council of La Raza, NAACP, etc).

    Read More
  55. @iffen
    I have wondered, is it because these guys are a bit confused or too mixed to belong to any specific subgroup (Welsh, Irish, Italian, Basque, etc.) and thus ‘White’ is their only meaningful identity?

    Good point Talha, I have wondered about this as well.
    In my limited experience, I have known a few ethnic whites and some of them didn’t take 2nd place to some of my down home peeps in their contempt for anyone they considered non-white, so this would only be part of the story.

    a generic ‘White’ club


    This would be so self-conscious and awkward. I don’t see how someone could pull it off with a straight face.

    I made a statement to commenter Slon that has set me to thinking as to whether I was correct in my assumptions. These WNs must be retrofitting history so as to make countries like Great Britain into a “White” nation. Pax Brittanica wasn’t put together by the British but by white people. By the same token the SJWs and their followers must view it the same and have a collective social memory like Steve says of the Jews who are always hearing the Cossacks coming, but the SJWs always see white supremacists coming.

    Reading a great book on The Reformation (already learned about whether it should be reformation, The Reformation, or reformations). I just finished reading about the German Peasant War of 1525. Really deadly, my peeps with pitchforks and sickles going up against artillery and heavy cavalry didn’t have a chance.

    This would be so self-conscious and awkward. I don’t see how someone could pull it off with a straight face.

    Well, people are trying to do the same with East Asians and people from North Africa and the Middle East (cf the “MENA” movement)….

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Well, people are trying to do the same with East Asians and people from North Africa and the Middle East (cf the “MENA” movement)….

    These are minority groups, working together as a group could bring benefits to the individual.

    How would working with other "whites" benefit me?
  56. @iffen
    Plenty of perfectly acceptable associations are built around identities that are exclusively white.

    Are you talking about activities that are created by and appeal primarily to whites. Are there "whites only" organizations? How do they define white?

    Are there “whites only” organizations? How do they define white?

    I was referring to my and Talha’s examples: Swedish Cultural Center, Serbian Club, The Polish House, St. Patrick’s Day, French-American scholarship fund, etc. Some are more exclusive than others, but what isn’t? Wasn’t there a black guy who joined the KKK? And Tila Tequila is apparently sieg heiling with the best of them. Anyways, all these are centered around white identities.

    Read More
  57. @Slon

    These WNs must be retrofitting history so as to make countries like Great Britain into a “White” nation.
     
    It will be interesting to see if European nationalist movements continue their cooperation if (when?) they gain power. Of course it's probably all just alliances of convenience so means nothing, but it would be ironic if, as they destroy the EU project, WNs internalized EU's European identity and reformulated it as pan-European White identity.

    as pan-European White identity.

    Even less likely than a pan-Arabic identity.

    I am having quite a cognitive hiccup with the white nationalist, white supremacist, American slavery conundrum.

    Read More
  58. @Talha
    Hey Slon,

    These are excellent points. I have wondered, is it because these guys are a bit confused or too mixed to belong to any specific subgroup (Welsh, Irish, Italian, Basque, etc.) and thus 'White' is their only meaningful identity? I mean, is that enough to unite them? It hasn't been enough to unite Europe for centuries (or keep them from plowing over each other's cities every few decades). Maybe this works only in the American context where all these White subgroups can coalesce. To me, 'White' truly only takes on any meaning when contrasted to non-Whites (but they aren't even sure who those are or aren't). I mean Chechens are White - heck, they are from the Caucasus! - but they wouldn't really be invited to the 'Whites-only' party.

    It's kind of like Black - if you know the difference between say a Sengalese vs African American - then you know that it is likely easier for the Sengalese immigrant to marry a Punjabi immigrant than it is an African American.

    To me, this is all fine; if one want to start a generic 'White' club - well, more power to you, have fun! Something tells me, the 'White' club qualifications will be quite arbitrary and whimsical - as iffen and others pointed out.

    Anyway...it gets complicated once you dig further...far more complicated and the incoherence* starts bubbling to the surface.

    Peace.

    *Note: Incoherence here refers to the ideas of the WNs, not the legitimate concerns I mentioned before.

    To me, ‘White’ truly only takes on any meaning when contrasted to non-Whites

    Isn’t that how identities always work?Identity depends upon contrast. If everyone in the USA were Black/Sub-Saharan African, “Blackness” would swiftly lose salience, while intra-Black identities (West Indian, Nigerian, etc) would suddenly loom large.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey syonredux,

    Not necessarily - the more coherent identities can indeed be well defined. For instance, a Balochi is either a person who speaks that language or descends from one of the tribes that compose the Balochi people. A Muslim or a Catholic is also defined by specific parameters of belief. These are all irrespective of any definitions (or even existence) of out-groups.

    White (as defined by people like Spencer) lacks coherence. It could possibly have a more solid definition and more coherence, but it would likely irk them that it contradicts what they want it to mean.

    Peace.
  59. @syonredux

    This would be so self-conscious and awkward. I don’t see how someone could pull it off with a straight face.
     
    Well, people are trying to do the same with East Asians and people from North Africa and the Middle East (cf the "MENA" movement)....

    Well, people are trying to do the same with East Asians and people from North Africa and the Middle East (cf the “MENA” movement)….

    These are minority groups, working together as a group could bring benefits to the individual.

    How would working with other “whites” benefit me?

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Well, people are trying to do the same with East Asians and people from North Africa and the Middle East (cf the “MENA” movement)….

    These are minority groups, working together as a group could bring benefits to the individual.

    How would working with other “whites” benefit me?
     
    By working against the POC who are working against you.
  60. @iffen
    I have wondered, is it because these guys are a bit confused or too mixed to belong to any specific subgroup (Welsh, Irish, Italian, Basque, etc.) and thus ‘White’ is their only meaningful identity?

    Good point Talha, I have wondered about this as well.
    In my limited experience, I have known a few ethnic whites and some of them didn’t take 2nd place to some of my down home peeps in their contempt for anyone they considered non-white, so this would only be part of the story.

    a generic ‘White’ club


    This would be so self-conscious and awkward. I don’t see how someone could pull it off with a straight face.

    I made a statement to commenter Slon that has set me to thinking as to whether I was correct in my assumptions. These WNs must be retrofitting history so as to make countries like Great Britain into a “White” nation. Pax Brittanica wasn’t put together by the British but by white people. By the same token the SJWs and their followers must view it the same and have a collective social memory like Steve says of the Jews who are always hearing the Cossacks coming, but the SJWs always see white supremacists coming.

    Reading a great book on The Reformation (already learned about whether it should be reformation, The Reformation, or reformations). I just finished reading about the German Peasant War of 1525. Really deadly, my peeps with pitchforks and sickles going up against artillery and heavy cavalry didn’t have a chance.

    These WNs must be retrofitting history so as to make countries like Great Britain into a “White” nation. Pax Brittanica wasn’t put together by the British but by white people.

    Bears repeating: WNs are essentially mirror images (or maybe “photo negatives”?) of Black Nationalists. Just as every African is the heir of Egypt, so, too, is every European the heir of Greece and Rome.

    Further point: The PC Left sees the world in essentially the same terms as WNs. WNs divide the world between “White people” and non-Whites. To the PC Left, everything is a struggle between People of Color (POC) and Whites.It’s all very Manichean.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    It’s all very Manichean.

    Doesn't this appeal to human nature ? Isn't playing to this one of the easiest ways to "win"?
  61. @iffen
    Well, people are trying to do the same with East Asians and people from North Africa and the Middle East (cf the “MENA” movement)….

    These are minority groups, working together as a group could bring benefits to the individual.

    How would working with other "whites" benefit me?

    Well, people are trying to do the same with East Asians and people from North Africa and the Middle East (cf the “MENA” movement)….

    These are minority groups, working together as a group could bring benefits to the individual.

    How would working with other “whites” benefit me?

    By working against the POC who are working against you.

    Read More
  62. @Twinkie

    as for richard, he’s a problem for everyone he touched now because of his nuttiness.
     
    Is it just nuttiness? Because it strikes me as something a bit more sinister.

    For example, take a look at this article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/lets-party-like-its-1933-inside-the-disturbing-alt-right-world-of-richard-spencer/2016/11/22/cf81dc74-aff7-11e6-840f-e3ebab6bcdd3_story.html

    “We need an ethno-state,” he said in a 2013 speech, “so that our people can ‘come home again,’ can live amongst family and feel safe and secure.”

    He ended his address by invoking the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.: “I have a dream.”

    Last week, Spencer was reluctant to discuss how that dream would be achieved.

    How, he was asked, in a nation with more than 100 million blacks, Asians and Latinos, could a whites-only territory be created without overwhelming violence?

    Over chocolate croissants and an Americano coffee at a Corner Bakery Cafe, he avoided the question, discussing Nietzsche, communism’s origins, history’s unpredictability.

    Then, at last, he offered an answer.

    “Look, maybe it will be horribly bloody and terrible,” he said. “That’s a possibility with everything.”
     
    Now, as I recall, Mr. Khan, I believe you mentioned before that you once knew him and that he was not a cretin. Considering his answer about the "white ethno-state" leaves me with two thoughts about him - either 1) he doesn't believe what he is selling, but he says these things to attract followers who do and to garner attention (I get the sense that he is VERY image conscious) or 2) he does believe in the monstrosity he peddles - probably because he hasn't seen real bloodshed and mass violence. In other words, he is either a con-man or a juvenile, but bloodthirsty psychopath.

    And, of course, the cherry on the cake is his weird arrogance (as if he is Der Führer already) and hypocrisy:

    Spencer, of course, would expel Muslims from his ethno-state. And most women, he said as he was being driven from the hotel to his next appointment, would return to their traditional role of bearing children.

    His attitude toward women and minorities made his admiration for Tila Tequila, the Nazi-loving Vietnamese American, surprising. Would he allow her in the ethno-state?

    “There are always exceptions, I guess,” an amused Spencer would say later. “I’m a generous guy.”
     
    In other words, HE gets to decide who is and is not "white" and gets to live in his ethnostate. This is an unbelievable level of deluded sense of grandeur for himself. It is also a particularly jejune expression of power-worship, like a bully with a sandbox who decides which among his friends can play in it.

    And "Let's party like it's 1933"? Good grief. My wife's late grandfather, the man I loved the most in her family and with whom I spent hours discussing war experiences, left pieces of himself in France and Germany fighting the Nazis. I think he would be sickened by the likes of him were he still alive.

    Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/

    What a moronic person. She - an ethnic Vietnamese - shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn't even know how how to spell "Sieg Heil" properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.

    Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/

    What a moronic person. She – an ethnic Vietnamese – shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn’t even know how how to spell “Sieg Heil” properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.

    I see her as a Vietnamese counterpart to the numerous White SJWs out there. You know, the “good” White people who constantly bemoan the awfulness of Europeans and do everything that they can to promote the interests of “People of Color.”

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The very great majority of SJWs are white. Your analogy is very weak.
  63. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @syonredux

    Oh, and I did not know who this Tila Tequila character was until I saw this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2016/11/21/d-c-restaurant-apologizes-after-hosting-alt-right-dinner-with-sieg-heil-salute/

    What a moronic person. She – an ethnic Vietnamese – shows up to a white nationalist gathering with blonde hair and Hitler-salutes, and she doesn’t even know how how to spell “Sieg Heil” properly in German. A real credit to her parents, I am sure.
     
    I see her as a Vietnamese counterpart to the numerous White SJWs out there. You know, the "good" White people who constantly bemoan the awfulness of Europeans and do everything that they can to promote the interests of "People of Color."

    The very great majority of SJWs are white. Your analogy is very weak.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    The very great majority of SJWs are white. Your analogy is very weak.
     
    That was actually my point. There are lots of "self-hating" White SJWs out there. "Self-Hating" pro-White POC, in contrast, are quite thin on the ground.
  64. The reason why you wouldn’t want the majority to form an ethnic identity in opposition to everyone else seems pretty self-evident to me. First world identity politics is stupid but at least there’s no pogroms.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    The reason why you wouldn’t want the majority to form an ethnic identity in opposition to everyone else seems pretty self-evident to me. First world identity politics is stupid but at least there’s no pogroms.
     
    Invites the question of demographic change, though. What happens when the "non-ethnic identity holding" majority becomes a minority and is now subordinate to the massively ethnocentric former minority?
  65. @Megalophias
    The reason why you wouldn't want the majority to form an ethnic identity in opposition to everyone else seems pretty self-evident to me. First world identity politics is stupid but at least there's no pogroms.

    The reason why you wouldn’t want the majority to form an ethnic identity in opposition to everyone else seems pretty self-evident to me. First world identity politics is stupid but at least there’s no pogroms.

    Invites the question of demographic change, though. What happens when the “non-ethnic identity holding” majority becomes a minority and is now subordinate to the massively ethnocentric former minority?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Megalophias
    Sounds like an excellent situation to avoid, I hear pogroms are even worse when you're on the receiving end. I'd like to think the people who are presently playing with matches would rapidly switch over to colour-blind liberal democracy if that seemed probable, but perhaps I'm too optimistic.

    Honestly though the people I *really* want to be sure are thinking of me as a full-fledged fellow person are the rich bastards who own/program the robots when they inevitably automate me out of work.
  66. @syonredux

    The reason why you wouldn’t want the majority to form an ethnic identity in opposition to everyone else seems pretty self-evident to me. First world identity politics is stupid but at least there’s no pogroms.
     
    Invites the question of demographic change, though. What happens when the "non-ethnic identity holding" majority becomes a minority and is now subordinate to the massively ethnocentric former minority?

    Sounds like an excellent situation to avoid, I hear pogroms are even worse when you’re on the receiving end. I’d like to think the people who are presently playing with matches would rapidly switch over to colour-blind liberal democracy if that seemed probable, but perhaps I’m too optimistic.

    Honestly though the people I *really* want to be sure are thinking of me as a full-fledged fellow person are the rich bastards who own/program the robots when they inevitably automate me out of work.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Sounds like an excellent situation to avoid, I hear pogroms are even worse when you’re on the receiving end. I’d like to think the people who are presently playing with matches would rapidly switch over to colour-blind liberal democracy if that seemed probable, but perhaps I’m too optimistic.
     
    Possibly. According to the SJWs on my campus, "color-blind liberal democracy" is simply a code-word for White supremacy.
  67. @Megalophias
    Sounds like an excellent situation to avoid, I hear pogroms are even worse when you're on the receiving end. I'd like to think the people who are presently playing with matches would rapidly switch over to colour-blind liberal democracy if that seemed probable, but perhaps I'm too optimistic.

    Honestly though the people I *really* want to be sure are thinking of me as a full-fledged fellow person are the rich bastards who own/program the robots when they inevitably automate me out of work.

    Sounds like an excellent situation to avoid, I hear pogroms are even worse when you’re on the receiving end. I’d like to think the people who are presently playing with matches would rapidly switch over to colour-blind liberal democracy if that seemed probable, but perhaps I’m too optimistic.

    Possibly. According to the SJWs on my campus, “color-blind liberal democracy” is simply a code-word for White supremacy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    According to the SJWs on my campus, “color-blind liberal democracy” is simply a code-word for White supremacy.

    Can POC as a group "do" liberal democracy?

    Will the people of little or no color whose ancestors came up with the idea of liberal democracy be able to keep liberal democracy going in a highly stratified SES society of extreme differences politically riven by race and ethnicity?
  68. ron posts all sorts of stuff. he has told me it is “alternative”. period. but to be honest at this point a lot of the content and commenters are alt-right inflected or dominated (a lot of it is from feeds cross-posted).

    and no, in general i am not like a lot of the others who post in this space. i think that’s obvious ;-)

    Thank you for your answer. Yes, I think that it is obvious when reading your posts. But I know that I am not always great at understanding people’s “subtitles” and when you moved your blog here, I wondered if it was some sort of statement about your opinions.

    Anyway, I use the occasion to thank you for your great blog. I a am a long time fan and learnt many things reading your posts, and discovered books that I would very probably never have read otherwise (special thanks for mentioning “the Blank State”!)

    Read More
  69. @syonredux

    Sounds like an excellent situation to avoid, I hear pogroms are even worse when you’re on the receiving end. I’d like to think the people who are presently playing with matches would rapidly switch over to colour-blind liberal democracy if that seemed probable, but perhaps I’m too optimistic.
     
    Possibly. According to the SJWs on my campus, "color-blind liberal democracy" is simply a code-word for White supremacy.

    According to the SJWs on my campus, “color-blind liberal democracy” is simply a code-word for White supremacy.

    Can POC as a group “do” liberal democracy?

    Will the people of little or no color whose ancestors came up with the idea of liberal democracy be able to keep liberal democracy going in a highly stratified SES society of extreme differences politically riven by race and ethnicity?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jason Liu

    Can POC as a group “do” liberal democracy?
     
    Heh. I strongly believe liberal democracy is the product of white European mentality. No non-white majority country will be a liberal democracy for very long, especially not under stress. Time will tell, I suppose.
  70. @Twinkie

    he has a postmodern sensibility about these things
     
    I do not know what that means - would you mind elaborating just a bit?

    that being said, he’s not the huge player he makes it out to be.
     
    You mean like where he takes credit for Trump's victory?

    He seems like a parody of some sort:

    He dresses in three-piece Brooks Brothers suits, gold-coin cuff links and $5,000 Swiss watches
     
    Geez, I don't know where to start.

    Why does he get so much time on MSM? Is it because he is not a toothless cretin who screams "white power" at every turn? Because he contradicts MSM's image of what a white nationalist is supposed to be, what with his haircut and normal looks and "Brooks Brothers suits"?

    *BB is what interns wear on the Hill and doesn't go with a "$5,000 Swiss watches." Mr. Spencer should get a different wardrobe consultant... or a visit to Savile Row in London or at least to Field English Custom Tailors in Georgetown after he eats at Maggiano's.

    Why does he get so much time on MSM?

    Trump’s success with non-traditional GOPe voters is maybe 2/3 economic and 1/3 identity.

    The media don’t want to talk about the economic stuff because the media is owned by the sort of people (in the US) who have benefited most from off-shoring.

    Hence them looking for ways to forge a narrative where Trump’s success is all identity or at least most identity.

    Read More
  71. @iffen
    According to the SJWs on my campus, “color-blind liberal democracy” is simply a code-word for White supremacy.

    Can POC as a group "do" liberal democracy?

    Will the people of little or no color whose ancestors came up with the idea of liberal democracy be able to keep liberal democracy going in a highly stratified SES society of extreme differences politically riven by race and ethnicity?

    Can POC as a group “do” liberal democracy?

    Heh. I strongly believe liberal democracy is the product of white European mentality. No non-white majority country will be a liberal democracy for very long, especially not under stress. Time will tell, I suppose.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    you're getting caught up in the stupid categories. the question is: will any non-anglo people maintain liberal democracy? all other european groups besides the english have a spotty and short record in comparison. and frankly, even the anglo experience is a few centuries old.
    , @notanon
    I think it's percentages.

    Say for the sake of argument liberal democracy needs
    - minimum average IQ
    - minimum amount of some x factor

    and assume x exists at some low percentage everywhere (say 5%) but the hajnal line thing selected for it specifically to some degree (say 20%)

    then the liberal democracy capable population would be a varying percentage among all populations - which fits my experience.

    You'd need a tipping point percentage though and the earliest populations to reach that tipping point would wobble a lot by definition (because they'd be just at the tipping point).

    So if you knew what the required genes were I think you could probably populate an island with people selected from everywhere as long as they were tested to have all the required genes and it might work out.
  72. @syonredux

    To me, ‘White’ truly only takes on any meaning when contrasted to non-Whites
     
    Isn't that how identities always work?Identity depends upon contrast. If everyone in the USA were Black/Sub-Saharan African, "Blackness" would swiftly lose salience, while intra-Black identities (West Indian, Nigerian, etc) would suddenly loom large.

    Hey syonredux,

    Not necessarily – the more coherent identities can indeed be well defined. For instance, a Balochi is either a person who speaks that language or descends from one of the tribes that compose the Balochi people. A Muslim or a Catholic is also defined by specific parameters of belief. These are all irrespective of any definitions (or even existence) of out-groups.

    White (as defined by people like Spencer) lacks coherence. It could possibly have a more solid definition and more coherence, but it would likely irk them that it contradicts what they want it to mean.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Not necessarily – the more coherent identities can indeed be well defined. For instance, a Balochi is either a person who speaks that language or descends from one of the tribes that compose the Balochi people
     
    Imagine a world where only the Balochi people exist; pretty sure that divisions within the Balochi people would suddenly become salient.


    " a Balochi is either a person who speaks that language":So, if a Finnish linguist learns Balochi, he counts as a Balochi?

    A Muslim or a Catholic is also defined by specific parameters of belief. These are all irrespective of any definitions (or even existence) of out-groups.
     
    "Defined by specific parameters of belief": Which means that people who do not share those beliefs are outside the fold. Again, identity rests on the existence of "otherness."

    White (as defined by people like Spencer) lacks coherence.
     
    Spencer seems to like a certain degree of fuzziness in his definition.
  73. @Talha
    Hey syonredux,

    Not necessarily - the more coherent identities can indeed be well defined. For instance, a Balochi is either a person who speaks that language or descends from one of the tribes that compose the Balochi people. A Muslim or a Catholic is also defined by specific parameters of belief. These are all irrespective of any definitions (or even existence) of out-groups.

    White (as defined by people like Spencer) lacks coherence. It could possibly have a more solid definition and more coherence, but it would likely irk them that it contradicts what they want it to mean.

    Peace.

    Not necessarily – the more coherent identities can indeed be well defined. For instance, a Balochi is either a person who speaks that language or descends from one of the tribes that compose the Balochi people

    Imagine a world where only the Balochi people exist; pretty sure that divisions within the Balochi people would suddenly become salient.

    ” a Balochi is either a person who speaks that language”:So, if a Finnish linguist learns Balochi, he counts as a Balochi?

    A Muslim or a Catholic is also defined by specific parameters of belief. These are all irrespective of any definitions (or even existence) of out-groups.

    “Defined by specific parameters of belief”: Which means that people who do not share those beliefs are outside the fold. Again, identity rests on the existence of “otherness.”

    White (as defined by people like Spencer) lacks coherence.

    Spencer seems to like a certain degree of fuzziness in his definition.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey syonredux,

    I guess when you present the hypothetical example and I imagine a Venn diagram where all humans are Balochi and thus Human = Balochi - the word 'Balochi' loses much of its meaning. I guess this is essentially the problem I have when many of these WN's seem to think creating a White ethno-state will solve all their issues; as you stated, divisions within White people would suddenly become salient - like they have constantly been in play in Europe - without any immigration. Immigration just adds another issue to worry about - and maybe that's all they want, they just want to have one less headache to worry about - so I can at least empathize with that.

    On the Balochi note, I made a mistake, descent from one of the tribes is the essential ingredient. Even if you happen to be a Balochi in London and can't speak a word of Balochi, you are still Balochi.

    Peace.
  74. @Jason Liu

    Can POC as a group “do” liberal democracy?
     
    Heh. I strongly believe liberal democracy is the product of white European mentality. No non-white majority country will be a liberal democracy for very long, especially not under stress. Time will tell, I suppose.

    you’re getting caught up in the stupid categories. the question is: will any non-anglo people maintain liberal democracy? all other european groups besides the english have a spotty and short record in comparison. and frankly, even the anglo experience is a few centuries old.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    [you are very good at packing in a huge # of factual inaccuracies into one comment; my question is are you trying, or this is an innate aptitude? -Razib]
    , @Bill M
    The English were able to "solve" the elite overproduction problem by having some of their elite prey elsewhere in places like Ireland, and by exporting population to huge, newly discovered continental territories. Who knows if they would have maintained liberal democracy, or even had it in the first place, without this outlet. They might not have had the luxury, especially since they were competing with the Continental states.
  75. @syonredux

    Not necessarily – the more coherent identities can indeed be well defined. For instance, a Balochi is either a person who speaks that language or descends from one of the tribes that compose the Balochi people
     
    Imagine a world where only the Balochi people exist; pretty sure that divisions within the Balochi people would suddenly become salient.


    " a Balochi is either a person who speaks that language":So, if a Finnish linguist learns Balochi, he counts as a Balochi?

    A Muslim or a Catholic is also defined by specific parameters of belief. These are all irrespective of any definitions (or even existence) of out-groups.
     
    "Defined by specific parameters of belief": Which means that people who do not share those beliefs are outside the fold. Again, identity rests on the existence of "otherness."

    White (as defined by people like Spencer) lacks coherence.
     
    Spencer seems to like a certain degree of fuzziness in his definition.

    Hey syonredux,

    I guess when you present the hypothetical example and I imagine a Venn diagram where all humans are Balochi and thus Human = Balochi – the word ‘Balochi’ loses much of its meaning. I guess this is essentially the problem I have when many of these WN’s seem to think creating a White ethno-state will solve all their issues; as you stated, divisions within White people would suddenly become salient – like they have constantly been in play in Europe – without any immigration. Immigration just adds another issue to worry about – and maybe that’s all they want, they just want to have one less headache to worry about – so I can at least empathize with that.

    On the Balochi note, I made a mistake, descent from one of the tribes is the essential ingredient. Even if you happen to be a Balochi in London and can’t speak a word of Balochi, you are still Balochi.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    That's a good observation that's never mentioned.
    So called white nationalism can only work in the Anglo new world, and even then, probably just the US and Canada as Aussies aren't Euromutts yet and see southerners as 'wogs'.
    There will never be unity based on some imagined construct of 'whiteness' in Europe, and these American WNs are seriously deluding themselves if they think otherwise.
    Hell, not even Pan-Slavicism could work in Europe, yet they think they can force some new world concept on dozens of ethnic groups with differing languages cultures histories etc, all of which are too proud to give up their heritage in favour of someone else's.
  76. @syonredux

    These WNs must be retrofitting history so as to make countries like Great Britain into a “White” nation. Pax Brittanica wasn’t put together by the British but by white people.
     
    Bears repeating: WNs are essentially mirror images (or maybe "photo negatives"?) of Black Nationalists. Just as every African is the heir of Egypt, so, too, is every European the heir of Greece and Rome.


    Further point: The PC Left sees the world in essentially the same terms as WNs. WNs divide the world between "White people" and non-Whites. To the PC Left, everything is a struggle between People of Color (POC) and Whites.It's all very Manichean.

    It’s all very Manichean.

    Doesn’t this appeal to human nature ? Isn’t playing to this one of the easiest ways to “win”?

    Read More
  77. @Jason Liu

    Can POC as a group “do” liberal democracy?
     
    Heh. I strongly believe liberal democracy is the product of white European mentality. No non-white majority country will be a liberal democracy for very long, especially not under stress. Time will tell, I suppose.

    I think it’s percentages.

    Say for the sake of argument liberal democracy needs
    - minimum average IQ
    - minimum amount of some x factor

    and assume x exists at some low percentage everywhere (say 5%) but the hajnal line thing selected for it specifically to some degree (say 20%)

    then the liberal democracy capable population would be a varying percentage among all populations – which fits my experience.

    You’d need a tipping point percentage though and the earliest populations to reach that tipping point would wobble a lot by definition (because they’d be just at the tipping point).

    So if you knew what the required genes were I think you could probably populate an island with people selected from everywhere as long as they were tested to have all the required genes and it might work out.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Democracy genes, I like it!

    Does this mean that every Arab Spring or Tiananmen Square reduces the chances for democracy in that population?

  78. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Talha
    Hey syonredux,

    I guess when you present the hypothetical example and I imagine a Venn diagram where all humans are Balochi and thus Human = Balochi - the word 'Balochi' loses much of its meaning. I guess this is essentially the problem I have when many of these WN's seem to think creating a White ethno-state will solve all their issues; as you stated, divisions within White people would suddenly become salient - like they have constantly been in play in Europe - without any immigration. Immigration just adds another issue to worry about - and maybe that's all they want, they just want to have one less headache to worry about - so I can at least empathize with that.

    On the Balochi note, I made a mistake, descent from one of the tribes is the essential ingredient. Even if you happen to be a Balochi in London and can't speak a word of Balochi, you are still Balochi.

    Peace.

    That’s a good observation that’s never mentioned.
    So called white nationalism can only work in the Anglo new world, and even then, probably just the US and Canada as Aussies aren’t Euromutts yet and see southerners as ‘wogs’.
    There will never be unity based on some imagined construct of ‘whiteness’ in Europe, and these American WNs are seriously deluding themselves if they think otherwise.
    Hell, not even Pan-Slavicism could work in Europe, yet they think they can force some new world concept on dozens of ethnic groups with differing languages cultures histories etc, all of which are too proud to give up their heritage in favour of someone else’s.

    Read More
    • Replies: @John Massey
    "Aussies aren’t Euromutts yet and see southerners as ‘wogs’."

    Speak for yourself. And the outdated derogatory slang term 'wog' was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans.
    , @Tobus
    Aussies aren’t Euromutts yet and see southerners as ‘wogs’.

    "Wog" is very outdated in Australia, and pretty much reclaimed as a positive term now. Southern European surnames are really commonplace and I think, given the subsequent racist fads against Lebanese, Vietnamese and then Muslims etc. since "anti-wog" was in vogue, that most Aussies today would consider Italians and Greeks as "white" in a national identity.

    Worth also noting that Australia had a "White Australia" policy for decades, and South Africa had apartheid, so I don't think white nationalism is limited to the US/Canada.

  79. @notanon
    I think it's percentages.

    Say for the sake of argument liberal democracy needs
    - minimum average IQ
    - minimum amount of some x factor

    and assume x exists at some low percentage everywhere (say 5%) but the hajnal line thing selected for it specifically to some degree (say 20%)

    then the liberal democracy capable population would be a varying percentage among all populations - which fits my experience.

    You'd need a tipping point percentage though and the earliest populations to reach that tipping point would wobble a lot by definition (because they'd be just at the tipping point).

    So if you knew what the required genes were I think you could probably populate an island with people selected from everywhere as long as they were tested to have all the required genes and it might work out.

    Democracy genes, I like it!

    Does this mean that every Arab Spring or Tiananmen Square reduces the chances for democracy in that population?

    Read More
    • Replies: @notanon
    if the idea is correct then yes - as would lowering the average IQ
    , @notanon

    democracy genes
     
    If you imagine a default environment where people are surrounded by close kin then there'd be no reason to select for traits that focused on cooperation between non kin.

    If you imagine an urban environment then unless close kin marriage was maintained culturally people would no longer be surrounded by close kin and you might imagine traits that enhanced cooperation among non kin might be selected for.

    If that was one component in democracy then you'd see first see democratic tendencies in the towns and cities - initially just for their own town or city - and a permanent tension between urban and rural unless a tipping point percentage was reached.

    Hence why i think the necessary traits for democracy will likely exist in some proportion among urbanized populations everywhere unless close kin marriages are culturally maintained in the cities also - and if the city was massacred then those traits would disappear for as long as it took for the city to fill up again and those traits to be selected for again.

    (if correct the hajnal line thing would be an enforced rural version of the effect of urbanisation)

  80. This seems as good a place as any to ask, as the commenters here seem generally well.read in related topics; can anyone recommend a decent book/articles on Hindu nationalism ? (Analytical rather than narrative.)

    Read More
  81. @iffen
    Democracy genes, I like it!

    Does this mean that every Arab Spring or Tiananmen Square reduces the chances for democracy in that population?

    if the idea is correct then yes – as would lowering the average IQ

    Read More
  82. @Razib Khan
    you're getting caught up in the stupid categories. the question is: will any non-anglo people maintain liberal democracy? all other european groups besides the english have a spotty and short record in comparison. and frankly, even the anglo experience is a few centuries old.

    [you are very good at packing in a huge # of factual inaccuracies into one comment; my question is are you trying, or this is an innate aptitude? -Razib]

    Read More
  83. @Razib Khan
    you're getting caught up in the stupid categories. the question is: will any non-anglo people maintain liberal democracy? all other european groups besides the english have a spotty and short record in comparison. and frankly, even the anglo experience is a few centuries old.

    The English were able to “solve” the elite overproduction problem by having some of their elite prey elsewhere in places like Ireland, and by exporting population to huge, newly discovered continental territories. Who knows if they would have maintained liberal democracy, or even had it in the first place, without this outlet. They might not have had the luxury, especially since they were competing with the Continental states.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    The English were able to “solve” the elite overproduction problem

    This seems reasonable on its face. They got rid of many of the less desirables as well.

    We should compare to Spain as to numbers. Spain exported many from the upper classes and hardly any of their proles and they didn't do all that well with early adoption of liberal democracy. So if we are suggesting changed % of classes as a major factor we need some comparisons and quantifying.

  84. @Razib Khan
    re, $, some of them, more than you expect, have family wealth, or a fixed income of some sort. richard is in that case. i would say he's "lower upper class", but above "upper middle class." kevin macdonald has a university pension. etc.

    That was my impression. In fact, I thought he was a ski bum from Whitefish (am I wrong about that?). When he tried to get me to give him my blog I asked him “for what?” and he seemed to think people just traded their work as some sort of courtesy. That was the only and last contact I had with him, and I came away from it thinking he lives in an entirely different world from my own. You know, the world where you have to worry about how you’re going to pay your bills and thereby stay under a roof and out of jail.

    Read More
  85. @Bill M
    The English were able to "solve" the elite overproduction problem by having some of their elite prey elsewhere in places like Ireland, and by exporting population to huge, newly discovered continental territories. Who knows if they would have maintained liberal democracy, or even had it in the first place, without this outlet. They might not have had the luxury, especially since they were competing with the Continental states.

    The English were able to “solve” the elite overproduction problem

    This seems reasonable on its face. They got rid of many of the less desirables as well.

    We should compare to Spain as to numbers. Spain exported many from the upper classes and hardly any of their proles and they didn’t do all that well with early adoption of liberal democracy. So if we are suggesting changed % of classes as a major factor we need some comparisons and quantifying.

    Read More
  86. @Anonymous
    That's a good observation that's never mentioned.
    So called white nationalism can only work in the Anglo new world, and even then, probably just the US and Canada as Aussies aren't Euromutts yet and see southerners as 'wogs'.
    There will never be unity based on some imagined construct of 'whiteness' in Europe, and these American WNs are seriously deluding themselves if they think otherwise.
    Hell, not even Pan-Slavicism could work in Europe, yet they think they can force some new world concept on dozens of ethnic groups with differing languages cultures histories etc, all of which are too proud to give up their heritage in favour of someone else's.

    “Aussies aren’t Euromutts yet and see southerners as ‘wogs’.”

    Speak for yourself. And the outdated derogatory slang term ‘wog’ was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Haha. Don't know where you're getting your information from but you couldn't be more wrong.
    First, formal definition from Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wog#Use_in_Australian_English

    In Australia, the term 'wog' refers to residents of Southern European, Eastern European, and Middle Eastern ethnicity or appearance.
     
    And Wiktionary
    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/wog#Noun

    (Australia, slang, pejorative, ethnic slur) A person of Southern European, Mediterranean, or Middle Eastern ancestry.
     
    Then informal 'street definition' from urbandictionary
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wog

    Races where the majority phenotype is brown to black hair, brown eyes, and light skin (in a world's perspective, not just European)...known for keeping strong to ethnic traditions, their native language
    Greeks, Italians, Maltese, Portuguese, Spaniards, Turks, Lebanese, Croatians, Serbians, Bosnians, Albanians, FYROMs (Macedonians)....debatable on whether all Eastern Europeans, Provencal French, Armenians, some Arabs are wogs.

    Nordic, African, or East Asian countries are not ever thought of as wogs in Australian terminology.
    by Dan August 29, 2003
     

    term used in Australian English to describe people of Mediterranean ancestry. Greeks, Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Serbians, Croats, Albanians, Lebanese, Turks and Armenians are all considered Wogs. Basically, anyone with an olive complexion that you could picture with a gold chain buried in a patch of black chest hair.
    Gino, Antonio, Sarkis and Kosta are all Wogs even though they speak different languages.
    #dago #wopp #gino #guido #guinea #spic #greaser #diego #doon coon
    by Mplad June 07, 2007
     
    You were saying?
    , @Tobus
    the outdated derogatory slang term ‘wog’ was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans

    No, it definitely applied to southern Europeans, Italians and Greeks especially... (see Acropolis Now for it's use in popular culture).
    , @Bill M
    Australia didn't have significant non-British Isles immigration until quite recently, with Southern European immigration following WWII. The derogatory term "wog" in Australia was used to refer to Southern Europeans and other immigrant groups such as Croatians, Serbs, and Lebanese. There wasn't much non-Lebanese Arab and Turkish immigration to Australia.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45BSeG9y99c
    , @dfordoom

    And the outdated derogatory slang term ‘wog’ was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans.
     
    No, as an Australian who was around in the 60s I can tell you it was used to describe southern Europeans. And Italian and Greek migrants used it to describe themselves. Italian and Greek migrants were not disliked - it was used mostly as a purely descriptive term, sometimes affectionately although on occasions in a derogatory manner. We also called English migrants Poms although that term was becoming much less common.

    The term 'wog' may have been used by an earlier generation, during the war years, to describe Arabs and Turks. I wasn't alive then so I don't know.
  87. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @John Massey
    "Aussies aren’t Euromutts yet and see southerners as ‘wogs’."

    Speak for yourself. And the outdated derogatory slang term 'wog' was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans.

    Haha. Don’t know where you’re getting your information from but you couldn’t be more wrong.
    First, formal definition from Wikipedia

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wog#Use_in_Australian_English

    In Australia, the term ‘wog’ refers to residents of Southern European, Eastern European, and Middle Eastern ethnicity or appearance.

    And Wiktionary

    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/wog#Noun

    (Australia, slang, pejorative, ethnic slur) A person of Southern European, Mediterranean, or Middle Eastern ancestry.

    Then informal ‘street definition’ from urbandictionary

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wog

    Races where the majority phenotype is brown to black hair, brown eyes, and light skin (in a world’s perspective, not just European)…known for keeping strong to ethnic traditions, their native language
    Greeks, Italians, Maltese, Portuguese, Spaniards, Turks, Lebanese, Croatians, Serbians, Bosnians, Albanians, FYROMs (Macedonians)….debatable on whether all Eastern Europeans, Provencal French, Armenians, some Arabs are wogs.

    Nordic, African, or East Asian countries are not ever thought of as wogs in Australian terminology.
    by Dan August 29, 2003

    term used in Australian English to describe people of Mediterranean ancestry. Greeks, Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Serbians, Croats, Albanians, Lebanese, Turks and Armenians are all considered Wogs. Basically, anyone with an olive complexion that you could picture with a gold chain buried in a patch of black chest hair.
    Gino, Antonio, Sarkis and Kosta are all Wogs even though they speak different languages.
    #dago #wopp #gino #guido #guinea #spic #greaser #diego #doon coon
    by Mplad June 07, 2007

    You were saying?

    Read More
    • Replies: @John Massey
    Note the careful wording in Wikipedia: "The slur became widely diffused...".

    The term "wog" originated with Australian troops fighting in the First and Second World Wars, where they encountered Turks and Arabs, and referred strictly to Near or Middle Eatern people. A variety of other terms were used to refer to other groups, e.g. Lebanese were 'Lebs', Egyptians were 'Gippos', Spaniards were 'Dagos' (orig. British and a contraction of Diego) and Italians were 'Eyeties' or 'Dings'.

    Australia outside of Sydney and Melbourne does exist, you know. So far this Century, it would have been better off if it had.
  88. @John Massey
    "Aussies aren’t Euromutts yet and see southerners as ‘wogs’."

    Speak for yourself. And the outdated derogatory slang term 'wog' was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans.

    the outdated derogatory slang term ‘wog’ was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans

    No, it definitely applied to southern Europeans, Italians and Greeks especially… (see Acropolis Now for it’s use in popular culture).

    Read More
  89. @John Massey
    "Aussies aren’t Euromutts yet and see southerners as ‘wogs’."

    Speak for yourself. And the outdated derogatory slang term 'wog' was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans.

    Australia didn’t have significant non-British Isles immigration until quite recently, with Southern European immigration following WWII. The derogatory term “wog” in Australia was used to refer to Southern Europeans and other immigrant groups such as Croatians, Serbs, and Lebanese. There wasn’t much non-Lebanese Arab and Turkish immigration to Australia.

    Read More
  90. @Anonymous
    That's a good observation that's never mentioned.
    So called white nationalism can only work in the Anglo new world, and even then, probably just the US and Canada as Aussies aren't Euromutts yet and see southerners as 'wogs'.
    There will never be unity based on some imagined construct of 'whiteness' in Europe, and these American WNs are seriously deluding themselves if they think otherwise.
    Hell, not even Pan-Slavicism could work in Europe, yet they think they can force some new world concept on dozens of ethnic groups with differing languages cultures histories etc, all of which are too proud to give up their heritage in favour of someone else's.

    Aussies aren’t Euromutts yet and see southerners as ‘wogs’.

    “Wog” is very outdated in Australia, and pretty much reclaimed as a positive term now. Southern European surnames are really commonplace and I think, given the subsequent racist fads against Lebanese, Vietnamese and then Muslims etc. since “anti-wog” was in vogue, that most Aussies today would consider Italians and Greeks as “white” in a national identity.

    Worth also noting that Australia had a “White Australia” policy for decades, and South Africa had apartheid, so I don’t think white nationalism is limited to the US/Canada.

    Read More
  91. @John Massey
    "Aussies aren’t Euromutts yet and see southerners as ‘wogs’."

    Speak for yourself. And the outdated derogatory slang term 'wog' was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans.

    And the outdated derogatory slang term ‘wog’ was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans.

    No, as an Australian who was around in the 60s I can tell you it was used to describe southern Europeans. And Italian and Greek migrants used it to describe themselves. Italian and Greek migrants were not disliked – it was used mostly as a purely descriptive term, sometimes affectionately although on occasions in a derogatory manner. We also called English migrants Poms although that term was becoming much less common.

    The term ‘wog’ may have been used by an earlier generation, during the war years, to describe Arabs and Turks. I wasn’t alive then so I don’t know.

    Read More
    • Replies: @John Massey
    I still call the English 'Poms' and always will. Because they deserve it.

    The fact that it is becoming less common further confirms what I have thought for a while now - far from becoming a 'successful multiracial society', after the post-war rush of 'reffos' had subsided, Australia has been becoming increasingly Anglo with time. If you don't believe that, check the current immigration figures.

    I wasn't around during the war years either, but picked up the terminology from the preceding generation, which was. Once when working on a road construction gang, I achieved the proud distinction of being abused as a "ding bastard" by a passing motorist, to the great amusement of my migrant Italian workmates (I'm not Italian, obviously, but could pass for a southern Italian, especially after prolonged sun exposure).
  92. @Anonymous
    Haha. Don't know where you're getting your information from but you couldn't be more wrong.
    First, formal definition from Wikipedia
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wog#Use_in_Australian_English

    In Australia, the term 'wog' refers to residents of Southern European, Eastern European, and Middle Eastern ethnicity or appearance.
     
    And Wiktionary
    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/wog#Noun

    (Australia, slang, pejorative, ethnic slur) A person of Southern European, Mediterranean, or Middle Eastern ancestry.
     
    Then informal 'street definition' from urbandictionary
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wog

    Races where the majority phenotype is brown to black hair, brown eyes, and light skin (in a world's perspective, not just European)...known for keeping strong to ethnic traditions, their native language
    Greeks, Italians, Maltese, Portuguese, Spaniards, Turks, Lebanese, Croatians, Serbians, Bosnians, Albanians, FYROMs (Macedonians)....debatable on whether all Eastern Europeans, Provencal French, Armenians, some Arabs are wogs.

    Nordic, African, or East Asian countries are not ever thought of as wogs in Australian terminology.
    by Dan August 29, 2003
     

    term used in Australian English to describe people of Mediterranean ancestry. Greeks, Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Serbians, Croats, Albanians, Lebanese, Turks and Armenians are all considered Wogs. Basically, anyone with an olive complexion that you could picture with a gold chain buried in a patch of black chest hair.
    Gino, Antonio, Sarkis and Kosta are all Wogs even though they speak different languages.
    #dago #wopp #gino #guido #guinea #spic #greaser #diego #doon coon
    by Mplad June 07, 2007
     
    You were saying?

    Note the careful wording in Wikipedia: “The slur became widely diffused…”.

    The term “wog” originated with Australian troops fighting in the First and Second World Wars, where they encountered Turks and Arabs, and referred strictly to Near or Middle Eatern people. A variety of other terms were used to refer to other groups, e.g. Lebanese were ‘Lebs’, Egyptians were ‘Gippos’, Spaniards were ‘Dagos’ (orig. British and a contraction of Diego) and Italians were ‘Eyeties’ or ‘Dings’.

    Australia outside of Sydney and Melbourne does exist, you know. So far this Century, it would have been better off if it had.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Australia outside of Sydney and Melbourne does exist, you know. So far this Century, it would have been better off if it had.
     
    Quite true. My significant other is from Queensland. Queenslanders don't exactly have their own dialect but there are quite a few differences in slang terms.

    When I was younger I noticed quite a few differences between Sydney and Melbourne slang as well. Melbournites seemed to be remarkably fond of rhyming slang.

    I was born in Sydney. I wouldn't touch the place with a barge-pole these days.
  93. @dfordoom

    And the outdated derogatory slang term ‘wog’ was applied to Arabs and Turks, not to southern Europeans.
     
    No, as an Australian who was around in the 60s I can tell you it was used to describe southern Europeans. And Italian and Greek migrants used it to describe themselves. Italian and Greek migrants were not disliked - it was used mostly as a purely descriptive term, sometimes affectionately although on occasions in a derogatory manner. We also called English migrants Poms although that term was becoming much less common.

    The term 'wog' may have been used by an earlier generation, during the war years, to describe Arabs and Turks. I wasn't alive then so I don't know.

    I still call the English ‘Poms’ and always will. Because they deserve it.

    The fact that it is becoming less common further confirms what I have thought for a while now – far from becoming a ‘successful multiracial society’, after the post-war rush of ‘reffos’ had subsided, Australia has been becoming increasingly Anglo with time. If you don’t believe that, check the current immigration figures.

    I wasn’t around during the war years either, but picked up the terminology from the preceding generation, which was. Once when working on a road construction gang, I achieved the proud distinction of being abused as a “ding bastard” by a passing motorist, to the great amusement of my migrant Italian workmates (I’m not Italian, obviously, but could pass for a southern Italian, especially after prolonged sun exposure).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bill M

    I achieved the proud distinction of being abused as a “ding bastard” by a passing motorist, to the great amusement of my migrant Italian workmates (I’m not Italian, obviously, but could pass for a southern Italian, especially after prolonged sun exposure).
     
    You may not be a wog, but you look like one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9DZvUNw95I
  94. @John Massey
    Note the careful wording in Wikipedia: "The slur became widely diffused...".

    The term "wog" originated with Australian troops fighting in the First and Second World Wars, where they encountered Turks and Arabs, and referred strictly to Near or Middle Eatern people. A variety of other terms were used to refer to other groups, e.g. Lebanese were 'Lebs', Egyptians were 'Gippos', Spaniards were 'Dagos' (orig. British and a contraction of Diego) and Italians were 'Eyeties' or 'Dings'.

    Australia outside of Sydney and Melbourne does exist, you know. So far this Century, it would have been better off if it had.

    Australia outside of Sydney and Melbourne does exist, you know. So far this Century, it would have been better off if it had.

    Quite true. My significant other is from Queensland. Queenslanders don’t exactly have their own dialect but there are quite a few differences in slang terms.

    When I was younger I noticed quite a few differences between Sydney and Melbourne slang as well. Melbournites seemed to be remarkably fond of rhyming slang.

    I was born in Sydney. I wouldn’t touch the place with a barge-pole these days.

    Read More
  95. If any of you doubt what I am saying about the original use of the term “wog” in Australian slang, try reading the book by the prolific Australian author Ion L. ‘Jack’ Idriess titled “Horrie the Wog Dog.”

    Idriess was a spotter for the half-Chinese Australian sniper Billy Sing at Gallipoli, and wrote largely non-fiction based on his own personal experiences, so you can take him as authoritative.

    Anyone who has heard of neither Idriess nor Sing would have a bit of a nerve referring to himself as Australian.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    the half-Chinese Australian sniper Billy Sing at Gallipoli
     
    https://youtu.be/d3oVr0CKU4o

    They couldn't find a half-Asian actor, eh? The portrayal of his father John Sing - a full blooded Chinese immigrant - with a completely European-looking actor was a nice touch. I guess kids call this "white-washing."

    Anyone who has heard of neither Idriess nor Sing would have a bit of a nerve referring to himself as Australian.
     
    Prior to the more recent publicity, how many Australians knew of Sing or that he was half-Chinese? He seemed to have died in obscurity.
  96. @John Massey
    I still call the English 'Poms' and always will. Because they deserve it.

    The fact that it is becoming less common further confirms what I have thought for a while now - far from becoming a 'successful multiracial society', after the post-war rush of 'reffos' had subsided, Australia has been becoming increasingly Anglo with time. If you don't believe that, check the current immigration figures.

    I wasn't around during the war years either, but picked up the terminology from the preceding generation, which was. Once when working on a road construction gang, I achieved the proud distinction of being abused as a "ding bastard" by a passing motorist, to the great amusement of my migrant Italian workmates (I'm not Italian, obviously, but could pass for a southern Italian, especially after prolonged sun exposure).

    I achieved the proud distinction of being abused as a “ding bastard” by a passing motorist, to the great amusement of my migrant Italian workmates (I’m not Italian, obviously, but could pass for a southern Italian, especially after prolonged sun exposure).

    You may not be a wog, but you look like one:

    Read More
  97. @iffen
    Why does he get so much time on MSM?

    It serves their purpose.

    Spencer and the others like him have no mass following. They are continually in a scrum for devotees and dollars.

    Why are you so invested with this one guy.

    I have spent a fair amount of time here at Unz challenging 88s and racists in the comment sections. I don't remember seeing you show up with many comments except occasionally where Talha has pushed back against bad information on Muslims.

    You don't seem to be able to make distinctions. You make everything into either/or. Just like you kept insisting that I was a WN when I kept telling you that I was not.

    Why are you so invested with this one guy.

    I am not. I commented on two threads about him, which is a miniscule fraction of the comments I have written on Unz.

    I don’t appreciate the attempt or the implication to make it sound like I am obsessed with this character, which is a too clever-by-half way of ad hominem.

    You don’t seem to be able to make distinctions. You make everything into either/or. Just like you kept insisting that I was a WN when I kept telling you that I was not.

    I don’t wish to make things personal here, but you seem to suffer from reading comprehension (of your own writing, to boot).

    Let me clarify. I do not know who you are. I do not know whether you are or are not a white nationalist. The only thing I can infer is to draw a conclusion of what you do or do not believe based on your comments.

    Earlier I wrote a short critique of Spencer’s ideas and plans, which include bloody and violent ethnic cleansing. You responded by writing the following:

    If our country is devolving into strict racial and ethnic identity politics, with very little possibility of returning to our propositional ideal, and I am fearful that it is, politics and ideologies like Spencer’s are rational for whites.

    By your own words, you are implying that pursuing a white ethnostate and violent ethnic cleaning of non-whites is “rational for whites.”

    What you wrote above would make sense if Spencer’s ideology were “garden variety” pro-white advocacy. But it’s not. It very clearly includes infantile fantasies of white (his, in particular) will to power and eradication of the “mud” people. And you think that’s “rational for white” in a world of identity politics. I don’t know what to tell you, except to say that it sounds a lot like a roundabout endorsement of Spencer’s ideas if not him as a person or a leader.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Well, I am fairly confident in my reading comprehension, but I do acknowledge deficiencies in my writing. As an excuse for that I think that taking 40 years off did a lot of damage.

    As to the personal stuff, I don’t know whether you are of Asian descent, a devout Catholic, or a part-time gentleman farmer among hillbillies. Are you wound up about Spencer because he supposedly has a predilection for Asian women? Because the celebrity slut that showed up at the gathering was Asian? The only item that I am certain of is that you seem to be very knowledgeable of military history.

    Why are you so invested with this one guy.


    There are other WNs that spout similar views. Have you never read Stormfront? You are giving this one individual more attention than the MSM. He is, in fact, garden variety on the extreme right.

    In my comments on identity politics, I committed the error that I attributed to you and it is what Razib rapped my knuckles about. In my comments I did not carefully acknowledge and delineate the continuum of identity politics that I see. I think that in this election cycle, the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place. Bernie recently tried to pull the Democrats back, but I didn’t see any other politicians rushing to endorse his position. In fact, if the pundits and writers on the liberal left are to be believed and if the thinking expressed by them prevails then the Democrats are going to double down.

    And you think that’s “rational for white” in a world of identity politics.


    If, and I have put if in bold for a reason, American politics degenerates into open, intractable and exclusive race based politics then it is rational for a white person to support the white group.

    If, in a dystopian future, race war comes, it would be rational for a white person to support the white group.

    Those events have not yet occurred and I would pray that they didn't. It just seems to me that this election cycle (the Clinton campaign) has put us at the fork and it is conceivable that we could go in the wrong direction.

    You are alarmed by the Spencer types; I am not. I am alarmed by the mild mannered professorial types.
  98. @John Massey
    If any of you doubt what I am saying about the original use of the term "wog" in Australian slang, try reading the book by the prolific Australian author Ion L. 'Jack' Idriess titled "Horrie the Wog Dog."

    Idriess was a spotter for the half-Chinese Australian sniper Billy Sing at Gallipoli, and wrote largely non-fiction based on his own personal experiences, so you can take him as authoritative.

    Anyone who has heard of neither Idriess nor Sing would have a bit of a nerve referring to himself as Australian.

    the half-Chinese Australian sniper Billy Sing at Gallipoli

    https://youtu.be/d3oVr0CKU4o

    They couldn’t find a half-Asian actor, eh? The portrayal of his father John Sing – a full blooded Chinese immigrant – with a completely European-looking actor was a nice touch. I guess kids call this “white-washing.”

    Anyone who has heard of neither Idriess nor Sing would have a bit of a nerve referring to himself as Australian.

    Prior to the more recent publicity, how many Australians knew of Sing or that he was half-Chinese? He seemed to have died in obscurity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @John Massey
    I have known about Billy Sing since I was a young teenager, because I loved Idriess' writing and avidly devoured everything he ever published. But I would guess very few Australians knew of Sing or acknowledged him as any kind of Australian war hero. He was a small, skinny man with a notable East Asian cast to his appearance, and just didn't fit the mythical image of the big bronzed Anzac. His efforts were recognised by the Australian military at the time, but he was soon forgotten after the war. And yes, he did die in impoverished obscurity.

    I was first pleased when I heard that a TV series about him was being planned, but then outraged when they cast Anglo-Australian actors in the parts of Billy and his father. There was some criticism voiced by the Australian Chinese community, but the producers just fobbed it off with some bullshit about how they didn't have a big enough budget to go looking for actors of more authentic appearance. Disgusted, I made a point of not watching the series. It seems to have made little impression - I certainly didn't see any critical acclaim of it, but then I didn't go looking.

    Just colour me appalled by the whole embarrassing mess.
  99. @Twinkie

    Why are you so invested with this one guy.
     
    I am not. I commented on two threads about him, which is a miniscule fraction of the comments I have written on Unz.

    I don't appreciate the attempt or the implication to make it sound like I am obsessed with this character, which is a too clever-by-half way of ad hominem.

    You don’t seem to be able to make distinctions. You make everything into either/or. Just like you kept insisting that I was a WN when I kept telling you that I was not.
     
    I don't wish to make things personal here, but you seem to suffer from reading comprehension (of your own writing, to boot).

    Let me clarify. I do not know who you are. I do not know whether you are or are not a white nationalist. The only thing I can infer is to draw a conclusion of what you do or do not believe based on your comments.

    Earlier I wrote a short critique of Spencer's ideas and plans, which include bloody and violent ethnic cleansing. You responded by writing the following:

    If our country is devolving into strict racial and ethnic identity politics, with very little possibility of returning to our propositional ideal, and I am fearful that it is, politics and ideologies like Spencer’s are rational for whites.
     
    By your own words, you are implying that pursuing a white ethnostate and violent ethnic cleaning of non-whites is "rational for whites."

    What you wrote above would make sense if Spencer's ideology were "garden variety" pro-white advocacy. But it's not. It very clearly includes infantile fantasies of white (his, in particular) will to power and eradication of the "mud" people. And you think that's "rational for white" in a world of identity politics. I don't know what to tell you, except to say that it sounds a lot like a roundabout endorsement of Spencer's ideas if not him as a person or a leader.

    Well, I am fairly confident in my reading comprehension, but I do acknowledge deficiencies in my writing. As an excuse for that I think that taking 40 years off did a lot of damage.

    As to the personal stuff, I don’t know whether you are of Asian descent, a devout Catholic, or a part-time gentleman farmer among hillbillies. Are you wound up about Spencer because he supposedly has a predilection for Asian women? Because the celebrity slut that showed up at the gathering was Asian? The only item that I am certain of is that you seem to be very knowledgeable of military history.

    Why are you so invested with this one guy.

    There are other WNs that spout similar views. Have you never read Stormfront? You are giving this one individual more attention than the MSM. He is, in fact, garden variety on the extreme right.

    In my comments on identity politics, I committed the error that I attributed to you and it is what Razib rapped my knuckles about. In my comments I did not carefully acknowledge and delineate the continuum of identity politics that I see. I think that in this election cycle, the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place. Bernie recently tried to pull the Democrats back, but I didn’t see any other politicians rushing to endorse his position. In fact, if the pundits and writers on the liberal left are to be believed and if the thinking expressed by them prevails then the Democrats are going to double down.

    And you think that’s “rational for white” in a world of identity politics.

    If, and I have put if in bold for a reason, American politics degenerates into open, intractable and exclusive race based politics then it is rational for a white person to support the white group.

    If, in a dystopian future, race war comes, it would be rational for a white person to support the white group.

    Those events have not yet occurred and I would pray that they didn’t. It just seems to me that this election cycle (the Clinton campaign) has put us at the fork and it is conceivable that we could go in the wrong direction.

    You are alarmed by the Spencer types; I am not. I am alarmed by the mild mannered professorial types.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    I don’t know whether you are...
     
    Now you are getting just snippy and petty. But I will indulge you.

    of Asian descent
     
    Yes. Northeast Asian, to be specific.

    a devout Catholic
     
    I suppose. But I am more obedient than devout.

    a part-time gentleman farmer among hillbillies
     
    I would not characterize myself as any kind of a farmer. I do own some desolate land and a farm house on it, which is my little piece of heaven on earth.

    Are you wound up about Spencer because he supposedly has a predilection for Asian women?
     
    No. That part of his history strikes me (very midly) as amusing. But the tone of this question strikes me as both presumptious and ill-intended. I am not one of those Internet Asian Guys (tm) who get upset at Asian women dating white men. For one thing, I am an assimilationist, so I encourage Asians - males and females - to marry whites (though obviously what matters first is love). For another, it would be extremely hypocratical and silly given that I married a woman the unhinged commenter Jefferson called "a Nordic queen."

    Because the celebrity slut that showed up at the gathering was Asian?
     
    I don't know who she is and do not care. I just feel sad for her parents.

    The only item that I am certain of is that you seem to be very knowledgeable of military history.
     
    Yes. I taught military history early in my life.

    There are other WNs that spout similar views. Have you never read Stormfront?
     
    Yes, some years ago. To my knowledge there is no one associated with that site who is getting front page treatment in the newspapers today (though I read that the son of the founder of that site is now a dreadlocked hip-hop artist living with a black woman).

    You are giving this one individual more attention than the MSM.
     
    I am pretty sure that Richard Spencer is getting a lot of attention in the mainstream media, including the pages of The Washington Post. I am also sure that such treatment is inordinately greater attention than what few sentences *I* - an anonymous commenter on a blog - wrote.

    He is, in fact, garden variety on the extreme right.
     
    I disagree. But of course this depends on what "the extreme right" is. Many people would categorize me as an "extreme rightist."

    In my comments on identity politics, I committed the error that I attributed to you and it is what Razib rapped my knuckles about. In my comments I did not carefully acknowledge and delineate the continuum of identity politics that I see.
     
    I'll take that as a "I am sorry."

    the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place.
     
    You seemed not to have paid attention to politics much in the past. There was no "barrier" that was crossed. Racialized political attacks and methods of influence have been with us for a very long time. Done well, it's effective (e.g. https://youtu.be/Io9KMSSEZ0Y). Done poorly, it backfires (e.g. https://youtu.be/2-E2IhOc58kf).

    In any case, we can see just how ineffective the "war on white men" strategy was for Clinton - Trump gained 2-3 percentage points over Romney among blacks, Hispanics, and Asians.

    In fact, if the pundits and writers on the liberal left are to be believed and if the thinking expressed by them prevails then the Democrats are going to double down.

     

    I hope so. And when our enemies are making a mistake, we ought to help them by "building a golden bridge" as the ancient saying goes.

    If, and I have put if in bold for a reason, American politics degenerates into open, intractable and exclusive race based politics then it is rational for a white person to support the white group.

     

    You are being slippery here and not too cleverly either. You didn't just write "If" - you qualified that if with a future likely to arrive. Your exact words were "If our country is devolving into strict racial and ethnic identity politics, with very little possibility of returning to our propositional ideal, and I am fearful that it is..." [boldface mine.]

    If, in a dystopian future, race war comes, it would be rational for a white person to support the white group.
     
    Unless you are completely unintelligent or unhinged, you ought to acknowledge that there is a rather large gulf between "ethnic identity politics" and "race war."

    The fact that you use the highly unlikely prospect of the latter to endorse Richard Spencer's vision of a white ethnostate and violent ethnic cleansing in a roundabout way all the while protesting "I am not a white nationalist" tells me that there is smoke here somewhere. It's been my experience that people who sound the alarm bells about a race war in the U.S. most vociferously are usually those who want it to happen.

    Even Spencer's mentor Jared Taylor has renounced explicitly violence as a means to achieve what he seeks. In fact, he is rather disparaging of the "Aryan race warrior" types in public (though Taylor has a coy habit of associating with characters whose principles seem to cross his on this score).
  100. @Anonymous
    The very great majority of SJWs are white. Your analogy is very weak.

    The very great majority of SJWs are white. Your analogy is very weak.

    That was actually my point. There are lots of “self-hating” White SJWs out there. “Self-Hating” pro-White POC, in contrast, are quite thin on the ground.

    Read More
  101. @iffen
    Democracy genes, I like it!

    Does this mean that every Arab Spring or Tiananmen Square reduces the chances for democracy in that population?

    democracy genes

    If you imagine a default environment where people are surrounded by close kin then there’d be no reason to select for traits that focused on cooperation between non kin.

    If you imagine an urban environment then unless close kin marriage was maintained culturally people would no longer be surrounded by close kin and you might imagine traits that enhanced cooperation among non kin might be selected for.

    If that was one component in democracy then you’d see first see democratic tendencies in the towns and cities – initially just for their own town or city – and a permanent tension between urban and rural unless a tipping point percentage was reached.

    Hence why i think the necessary traits for democracy will likely exist in some proportion among urbanized populations everywhere unless close kin marriages are culturally maintained in the cities also – and if the city was massacred then those traits would disappear for as long as it took for the city to fill up again and those traits to be selected for again.

    (if correct the hajnal line thing would be an enforced rural version of the effect of urbanisation)

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    might imagine traits that enhanced cooperation among non kin might be selected for.

    Why couldn't it just be an add on to kin cooperation. IOW some people can do "virtual kin" and cooperate within the rules and the system.
  102. @notanon

    democracy genes
     
    If you imagine a default environment where people are surrounded by close kin then there'd be no reason to select for traits that focused on cooperation between non kin.

    If you imagine an urban environment then unless close kin marriage was maintained culturally people would no longer be surrounded by close kin and you might imagine traits that enhanced cooperation among non kin might be selected for.

    If that was one component in democracy then you'd see first see democratic tendencies in the towns and cities - initially just for their own town or city - and a permanent tension between urban and rural unless a tipping point percentage was reached.

    Hence why i think the necessary traits for democracy will likely exist in some proportion among urbanized populations everywhere unless close kin marriages are culturally maintained in the cities also - and if the city was massacred then those traits would disappear for as long as it took for the city to fill up again and those traits to be selected for again.

    (if correct the hajnal line thing would be an enforced rural version of the effect of urbanisation)

    might imagine traits that enhanced cooperation among non kin might be selected for.

    Why couldn’t it just be an add on to kin cooperation. IOW some people can do “virtual kin” and cooperate within the rules and the system.

    Read More
    • Replies: @notanon
    sure - that would be a trait that enhanced cooperation among non-kin

    (it's why i think IQ may be partly an "urban" thing if it involves the ability to see the benefits of cooperation that weren't immediately obvious)
  103. @iffen
    Well, I am fairly confident in my reading comprehension, but I do acknowledge deficiencies in my writing. As an excuse for that I think that taking 40 years off did a lot of damage.

    As to the personal stuff, I don’t know whether you are of Asian descent, a devout Catholic, or a part-time gentleman farmer among hillbillies. Are you wound up about Spencer because he supposedly has a predilection for Asian women? Because the celebrity slut that showed up at the gathering was Asian? The only item that I am certain of is that you seem to be very knowledgeable of military history.

    Why are you so invested with this one guy.


    There are other WNs that spout similar views. Have you never read Stormfront? You are giving this one individual more attention than the MSM. He is, in fact, garden variety on the extreme right.

    In my comments on identity politics, I committed the error that I attributed to you and it is what Razib rapped my knuckles about. In my comments I did not carefully acknowledge and delineate the continuum of identity politics that I see. I think that in this election cycle, the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place. Bernie recently tried to pull the Democrats back, but I didn’t see any other politicians rushing to endorse his position. In fact, if the pundits and writers on the liberal left are to be believed and if the thinking expressed by them prevails then the Democrats are going to double down.

    And you think that’s “rational for white” in a world of identity politics.


    If, and I have put if in bold for a reason, American politics degenerates into open, intractable and exclusive race based politics then it is rational for a white person to support the white group.

    If, in a dystopian future, race war comes, it would be rational for a white person to support the white group.

    Those events have not yet occurred and I would pray that they didn't. It just seems to me that this election cycle (the Clinton campaign) has put us at the fork and it is conceivable that we could go in the wrong direction.

    You are alarmed by the Spencer types; I am not. I am alarmed by the mild mannered professorial types.

    I don’t know whether you are…

    Now you are getting just snippy and petty. But I will indulge you.

    of Asian descent

    Yes. Northeast Asian, to be specific.

    a devout Catholic

    I suppose. But I am more obedient than devout.

    a part-time gentleman farmer among hillbillies

    I would not characterize myself as any kind of a farmer. I do own some desolate land and a farm house on it, which is my little piece of heaven on earth.

    Are you wound up about Spencer because he supposedly has a predilection for Asian women?

    No. That part of his history strikes me (very midly) as amusing. But the tone of this question strikes me as both presumptious and ill-intended. I am not one of those Internet Asian Guys ™ who get upset at Asian women dating white men. For one thing, I am an assimilationist, so I encourage Asians – males and females – to marry whites (though obviously what matters first is love). For another, it would be extremely hypocratical and silly given that I married a woman the unhinged commenter Jefferson called “a Nordic queen.”

    Because the celebrity slut that showed up at the gathering was Asian?

    I don’t know who she is and do not care. I just feel sad for her parents.

    The only item that I am certain of is that you seem to be very knowledgeable of military history.

    Yes. I taught military history early in my life.

    There are other WNs that spout similar views. Have you never read Stormfront?

    Yes, some years ago. To my knowledge there is no one associated with that site who is getting front page treatment in the newspapers today (though I read that the son of the founder of that site is now a dreadlocked hip-hop artist living with a black woman).

    You are giving this one individual more attention than the MSM.

    I am pretty sure that Richard Spencer is getting a lot of attention in the mainstream media, including the pages of The Washington Post. I am also sure that such treatment is inordinately greater attention than what few sentences *I* – an anonymous commenter on a blog – wrote.

    He is, in fact, garden variety on the extreme right.

    I disagree. But of course this depends on what “the extreme right” is. Many people would categorize me as an “extreme rightist.”

    In my comments on identity politics, I committed the error that I attributed to you and it is what Razib rapped my knuckles about. In my comments I did not carefully acknowledge and delineate the continuum of identity politics that I see.

    I’ll take that as a “I am sorry.”

    the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place.

    You seemed not to have paid attention to politics much in the past. There was no “barrier” that was crossed. Racialized political attacks and methods of influence have been with us for a very long time. Done well, it’s effective (e.g. https://youtu.be/Io9KMSSEZ0Y). Done poorly, it backfires (e.g. https://youtu.be/2-E2IhOc58kf).

    In any case, we can see just how ineffective the “war on white men” strategy was for Clinton – Trump gained 2-3 percentage points over Romney among blacks, Hispanics, and Asians.

    In fact, if the pundits and writers on the liberal left are to be believed and if the thinking expressed by them prevails then the Democrats are going to double down.

    I hope so. And when our enemies are making a mistake, we ought to help them by “building a golden bridge” as the ancient saying goes.

    If, and I have put if in bold for a reason, American politics degenerates into open, intractable and exclusive race based politics then it is rational for a white person to support the white group.

    You are being slippery here and not too cleverly either. You didn’t just write “If” – you qualified that if with a future likely to arrive. Your exact words were “If our country is devolving into strict racial and ethnic identity politics, with very little possibility of returning to our propositional ideal, and I am fearful that it is…” [boldface mine.]

    If, in a dystopian future, race war comes, it would be rational for a white person to support the white group.

    Unless you are completely unintelligent or unhinged, you ought to acknowledge that there is a rather large gulf between “ethnic identity politics” and “race war.”

    The fact that you use the highly unlikely prospect of the latter to endorse Richard Spencer’s vision of a white ethnostate and violent ethnic cleansing in a roundabout way all the while protesting “I am not a white nationalist” tells me that there is smoke here somewhere. It’s been my experience that people who sound the alarm bells about a race war in the U.S. most vociferously are usually those who want it to happen.

    Even Spencer’s mentor Jared Taylor has renounced explicitly violence as a means to achieve what he seeks. In fact, he is rather disparaging of the “Aryan race warrior” types in public (though Taylor has a coy habit of associating with characters whose principles seem to cross his on this score).

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Thanks for the indulgence. :)

    But the tone of this question strikes me as both presumptious and ill-intended.

    Just dabbling in giving back something in the tone that I see in some of your comments about and toward me.

    I am an assimilationist, so I encourage Asians – males and females – to marry whites

    Interesting, I see a lot of diversity in marriages these days, but I don’t see many public advocates for the intentional merging of the races. I noticed that you specified whites. Is this intentional? What about other races?

    I’ll take that as a “I am sorry.”

    No, it is not any sort of apology for anything that I have written, just an acknowledgement that the clarity of my writing is sub-par. Apology for style, not substance.

    the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place.

    You seemed not to have paid attention to politics much in the past.

    This would be you, not me. We can leave this aside as to whether this election was the beginning of something different or just more of the same. I can agree to disagree.

    when our enemies are making a mistake

    Our. Much progress has been made.

    we ought to help them by “building a golden bridge” as the ancient saying goes.

    Yes. Let’s hope the Democrats select the Black Muslim to be DNC chair.
    A caveat here would be that this would continue to drive the racial and ethnic divide. Taken to the extreme many, many years into the future it would be disaster. I think it is worth the short term risk in order to cause the collapse of the Democratic Party.

    you ought to acknowledge that there is a rather large gulf between “ethnic identity politics” and “race war.”

    This was the main point of my last comment. I say extremely large gulf. Whether the problem is my writing or your comprehension, or some combination, I can’t say. :)

    who sound the alarm bells about a race war in the U.S.

    I am not worried about race war at this point in time. I am worried about the increasingly open appeal to race and identity without any pretense of homage to a “higher” common political identity in what passes for normal politics. I also take note of those on the right who are trying to drum up support for the creation of a "white" identity, with or without the Nazi trimmings.

    though Taylor has a coy habit of associating with characters

    tells me that there is smoke here somewhere.
    , @iffen
    Democrats, Not Trump, Racialize Our Politics

    A party obsessed with race won’t have much luck reaching out to non-elite whites.

    Heather Mac Donald
    November 27, 2016

    http://www.city-journal.org/html/democrats-not-trump-racialize-our-politics-14871.html
    , @Johann Ricke

    Yes, some years ago. To my knowledge there is no one associated with that site who is getting front page treatment in the newspapers today (though I read that the son of the founder of that site is now a dreadlocked hip-hop artist living with a black woman).
     
    The white flight of Derek Black
  104. @iffen
    might imagine traits that enhanced cooperation among non kin might be selected for.

    Why couldn't it just be an add on to kin cooperation. IOW some people can do "virtual kin" and cooperate within the rules and the system.

    sure – that would be a trait that enhanced cooperation among non-kin

    (it’s why i think IQ may be partly an “urban” thing if it involves the ability to see the benefits of cooperation that weren’t immediately obvious)

    Read More
  105. @Twinkie

    I don’t know whether you are...
     
    Now you are getting just snippy and petty. But I will indulge you.

    of Asian descent
     
    Yes. Northeast Asian, to be specific.

    a devout Catholic
     
    I suppose. But I am more obedient than devout.

    a part-time gentleman farmer among hillbillies
     
    I would not characterize myself as any kind of a farmer. I do own some desolate land and a farm house on it, which is my little piece of heaven on earth.

    Are you wound up about Spencer because he supposedly has a predilection for Asian women?
     
    No. That part of his history strikes me (very midly) as amusing. But the tone of this question strikes me as both presumptious and ill-intended. I am not one of those Internet Asian Guys (tm) who get upset at Asian women dating white men. For one thing, I am an assimilationist, so I encourage Asians - males and females - to marry whites (though obviously what matters first is love). For another, it would be extremely hypocratical and silly given that I married a woman the unhinged commenter Jefferson called "a Nordic queen."

    Because the celebrity slut that showed up at the gathering was Asian?
     
    I don't know who she is and do not care. I just feel sad for her parents.

    The only item that I am certain of is that you seem to be very knowledgeable of military history.
     
    Yes. I taught military history early in my life.

    There are other WNs that spout similar views. Have you never read Stormfront?
     
    Yes, some years ago. To my knowledge there is no one associated with that site who is getting front page treatment in the newspapers today (though I read that the son of the founder of that site is now a dreadlocked hip-hop artist living with a black woman).

    You are giving this one individual more attention than the MSM.
     
    I am pretty sure that Richard Spencer is getting a lot of attention in the mainstream media, including the pages of The Washington Post. I am also sure that such treatment is inordinately greater attention than what few sentences *I* - an anonymous commenter on a blog - wrote.

    He is, in fact, garden variety on the extreme right.
     
    I disagree. But of course this depends on what "the extreme right" is. Many people would categorize me as an "extreme rightist."

    In my comments on identity politics, I committed the error that I attributed to you and it is what Razib rapped my knuckles about. In my comments I did not carefully acknowledge and delineate the continuum of identity politics that I see.
     
    I'll take that as a "I am sorry."

    the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place.
     
    You seemed not to have paid attention to politics much in the past. There was no "barrier" that was crossed. Racialized political attacks and methods of influence have been with us for a very long time. Done well, it's effective (e.g. https://youtu.be/Io9KMSSEZ0Y). Done poorly, it backfires (e.g. https://youtu.be/2-E2IhOc58kf).

    In any case, we can see just how ineffective the "war on white men" strategy was for Clinton - Trump gained 2-3 percentage points over Romney among blacks, Hispanics, and Asians.

    In fact, if the pundits and writers on the liberal left are to be believed and if the thinking expressed by them prevails then the Democrats are going to double down.

     

    I hope so. And when our enemies are making a mistake, we ought to help them by "building a golden bridge" as the ancient saying goes.

    If, and I have put if in bold for a reason, American politics degenerates into open, intractable and exclusive race based politics then it is rational for a white person to support the white group.

     

    You are being slippery here and not too cleverly either. You didn't just write "If" - you qualified that if with a future likely to arrive. Your exact words were "If our country is devolving into strict racial and ethnic identity politics, with very little possibility of returning to our propositional ideal, and I am fearful that it is..." [boldface mine.]

    If, in a dystopian future, race war comes, it would be rational for a white person to support the white group.
     
    Unless you are completely unintelligent or unhinged, you ought to acknowledge that there is a rather large gulf between "ethnic identity politics" and "race war."

    The fact that you use the highly unlikely prospect of the latter to endorse Richard Spencer's vision of a white ethnostate and violent ethnic cleansing in a roundabout way all the while protesting "I am not a white nationalist" tells me that there is smoke here somewhere. It's been my experience that people who sound the alarm bells about a race war in the U.S. most vociferously are usually those who want it to happen.

    Even Spencer's mentor Jared Taylor has renounced explicitly violence as a means to achieve what he seeks. In fact, he is rather disparaging of the "Aryan race warrior" types in public (though Taylor has a coy habit of associating with characters whose principles seem to cross his on this score).

    Thanks for the indulgence. :)

    But the tone of this question strikes me as both presumptious and ill-intended.

    Just dabbling in giving back something in the tone that I see in some of your comments about and toward me.

    I am an assimilationist, so I encourage Asians – males and females – to marry whites

    Interesting, I see a lot of diversity in marriages these days, but I don’t see many public advocates for the intentional merging of the races. I noticed that you specified whites. Is this intentional? What about other races?

    I’ll take that as a “I am sorry.”

    No, it is not any sort of apology for anything that I have written, just an acknowledgement that the clarity of my writing is sub-par. Apology for style, not substance.

    the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place.

    You seemed not to have paid attention to politics much in the past.

    This would be you, not me. We can leave this aside as to whether this election was the beginning of something different or just more of the same. I can agree to disagree.

    when our enemies are making a mistake

    Our. Much progress has been made.

    we ought to help them by “building a golden bridge” as the ancient saying goes.

    Yes. Let’s hope the Democrats select the Black Muslim to be DNC chair.
    A caveat here would be that this would continue to drive the racial and ethnic divide. Taken to the extreme many, many years into the future it would be disaster. I think it is worth the short term risk in order to cause the collapse of the Democratic Party.

    you ought to acknowledge that there is a rather large gulf between “ethnic identity politics” and “race war.”

    This was the main point of my last comment. I say extremely large gulf. Whether the problem is my writing or your comprehension, or some combination, I can’t say. :)

    who sound the alarm bells about a race war in the U.S.

    I am not worried about race war at this point in time. I am worried about the increasingly open appeal to race and identity without any pretense of homage to a “higher” common political identity in what passes for normal politics. I also take note of those on the right who are trying to drum up support for the creation of a “white” identity, with or without the Nazi trimmings.

    though Taylor has a coy habit of associating with characters

    tells me that there is smoke here somewhere.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Just dabbling in giving back something in the tone that I see in some of your comments about and toward me.
     
    I feel like the next response is going to be "That's what you are, but what am I?" In other words, the conversation has degenerated into the personal, and that's not productive. I am going to refrain from commenting on your comments. It would be nice if you reciprocated.
  106. @Twinkie

    I don’t know whether you are...
     
    Now you are getting just snippy and petty. But I will indulge you.

    of Asian descent
     
    Yes. Northeast Asian, to be specific.

    a devout Catholic
     
    I suppose. But I am more obedient than devout.

    a part-time gentleman farmer among hillbillies
     
    I would not characterize myself as any kind of a farmer. I do own some desolate land and a farm house on it, which is my little piece of heaven on earth.

    Are you wound up about Spencer because he supposedly has a predilection for Asian women?
     
    No. That part of his history strikes me (very midly) as amusing. But the tone of this question strikes me as both presumptious and ill-intended. I am not one of those Internet Asian Guys (tm) who get upset at Asian women dating white men. For one thing, I am an assimilationist, so I encourage Asians - males and females - to marry whites (though obviously what matters first is love). For another, it would be extremely hypocratical and silly given that I married a woman the unhinged commenter Jefferson called "a Nordic queen."

    Because the celebrity slut that showed up at the gathering was Asian?
     
    I don't know who she is and do not care. I just feel sad for her parents.

    The only item that I am certain of is that you seem to be very knowledgeable of military history.
     
    Yes. I taught military history early in my life.

    There are other WNs that spout similar views. Have you never read Stormfront?
     
    Yes, some years ago. To my knowledge there is no one associated with that site who is getting front page treatment in the newspapers today (though I read that the son of the founder of that site is now a dreadlocked hip-hop artist living with a black woman).

    You are giving this one individual more attention than the MSM.
     
    I am pretty sure that Richard Spencer is getting a lot of attention in the mainstream media, including the pages of The Washington Post. I am also sure that such treatment is inordinately greater attention than what few sentences *I* - an anonymous commenter on a blog - wrote.

    He is, in fact, garden variety on the extreme right.
     
    I disagree. But of course this depends on what "the extreme right" is. Many people would categorize me as an "extreme rightist."

    In my comments on identity politics, I committed the error that I attributed to you and it is what Razib rapped my knuckles about. In my comments I did not carefully acknowledge and delineate the continuum of identity politics that I see.
     
    I'll take that as a "I am sorry."

    the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place.
     
    You seemed not to have paid attention to politics much in the past. There was no "barrier" that was crossed. Racialized political attacks and methods of influence have been with us for a very long time. Done well, it's effective (e.g. https://youtu.be/Io9KMSSEZ0Y). Done poorly, it backfires (e.g. https://youtu.be/2-E2IhOc58kf).

    In any case, we can see just how ineffective the "war on white men" strategy was for Clinton - Trump gained 2-3 percentage points over Romney among blacks, Hispanics, and Asians.

    In fact, if the pundits and writers on the liberal left are to be believed and if the thinking expressed by them prevails then the Democrats are going to double down.

     

    I hope so. And when our enemies are making a mistake, we ought to help them by "building a golden bridge" as the ancient saying goes.

    If, and I have put if in bold for a reason, American politics degenerates into open, intractable and exclusive race based politics then it is rational for a white person to support the white group.

     

    You are being slippery here and not too cleverly either. You didn't just write "If" - you qualified that if with a future likely to arrive. Your exact words were "If our country is devolving into strict racial and ethnic identity politics, with very little possibility of returning to our propositional ideal, and I am fearful that it is..." [boldface mine.]

    If, in a dystopian future, race war comes, it would be rational for a white person to support the white group.
     
    Unless you are completely unintelligent or unhinged, you ought to acknowledge that there is a rather large gulf between "ethnic identity politics" and "race war."

    The fact that you use the highly unlikely prospect of the latter to endorse Richard Spencer's vision of a white ethnostate and violent ethnic cleansing in a roundabout way all the while protesting "I am not a white nationalist" tells me that there is smoke here somewhere. It's been my experience that people who sound the alarm bells about a race war in the U.S. most vociferously are usually those who want it to happen.

    Even Spencer's mentor Jared Taylor has renounced explicitly violence as a means to achieve what he seeks. In fact, he is rather disparaging of the "Aryan race warrior" types in public (though Taylor has a coy habit of associating with characters whose principles seem to cross his on this score).

    Democrats, Not Trump, Racialize Our Politics

    A party obsessed with race won’t have much luck reaching out to non-elite whites.

    Heather Mac Donald
    November 27, 2016

    http://www.city-journal.org/html/democrats-not-trump-racialize-our-politics-14871.html

    Read More
  107. @Twinkie

    I don’t know whether you are...
     
    Now you are getting just snippy and petty. But I will indulge you.

    of Asian descent
     
    Yes. Northeast Asian, to be specific.

    a devout Catholic
     
    I suppose. But I am more obedient than devout.

    a part-time gentleman farmer among hillbillies
     
    I would not characterize myself as any kind of a farmer. I do own some desolate land and a farm house on it, which is my little piece of heaven on earth.

    Are you wound up about Spencer because he supposedly has a predilection for Asian women?
     
    No. That part of his history strikes me (very midly) as amusing. But the tone of this question strikes me as both presumptious and ill-intended. I am not one of those Internet Asian Guys (tm) who get upset at Asian women dating white men. For one thing, I am an assimilationist, so I encourage Asians - males and females - to marry whites (though obviously what matters first is love). For another, it would be extremely hypocratical and silly given that I married a woman the unhinged commenter Jefferson called "a Nordic queen."

    Because the celebrity slut that showed up at the gathering was Asian?
     
    I don't know who she is and do not care. I just feel sad for her parents.

    The only item that I am certain of is that you seem to be very knowledgeable of military history.
     
    Yes. I taught military history early in my life.

    There are other WNs that spout similar views. Have you never read Stormfront?
     
    Yes, some years ago. To my knowledge there is no one associated with that site who is getting front page treatment in the newspapers today (though I read that the son of the founder of that site is now a dreadlocked hip-hop artist living with a black woman).

    You are giving this one individual more attention than the MSM.
     
    I am pretty sure that Richard Spencer is getting a lot of attention in the mainstream media, including the pages of The Washington Post. I am also sure that such treatment is inordinately greater attention than what few sentences *I* - an anonymous commenter on a blog - wrote.

    He is, in fact, garden variety on the extreme right.
     
    I disagree. But of course this depends on what "the extreme right" is. Many people would categorize me as an "extreme rightist."

    In my comments on identity politics, I committed the error that I attributed to you and it is what Razib rapped my knuckles about. In my comments I did not carefully acknowledge and delineate the continuum of identity politics that I see.
     
    I'll take that as a "I am sorry."

    the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place.
     
    You seemed not to have paid attention to politics much in the past. There was no "barrier" that was crossed. Racialized political attacks and methods of influence have been with us for a very long time. Done well, it's effective (e.g. https://youtu.be/Io9KMSSEZ0Y). Done poorly, it backfires (e.g. https://youtu.be/2-E2IhOc58kf).

    In any case, we can see just how ineffective the "war on white men" strategy was for Clinton - Trump gained 2-3 percentage points over Romney among blacks, Hispanics, and Asians.

    In fact, if the pundits and writers on the liberal left are to be believed and if the thinking expressed by them prevails then the Democrats are going to double down.

     

    I hope so. And when our enemies are making a mistake, we ought to help them by "building a golden bridge" as the ancient saying goes.

    If, and I have put if in bold for a reason, American politics degenerates into open, intractable and exclusive race based politics then it is rational for a white person to support the white group.

     

    You are being slippery here and not too cleverly either. You didn't just write "If" - you qualified that if with a future likely to arrive. Your exact words were "If our country is devolving into strict racial and ethnic identity politics, with very little possibility of returning to our propositional ideal, and I am fearful that it is..." [boldface mine.]

    If, in a dystopian future, race war comes, it would be rational for a white person to support the white group.
     
    Unless you are completely unintelligent or unhinged, you ought to acknowledge that there is a rather large gulf between "ethnic identity politics" and "race war."

    The fact that you use the highly unlikely prospect of the latter to endorse Richard Spencer's vision of a white ethnostate and violent ethnic cleansing in a roundabout way all the while protesting "I am not a white nationalist" tells me that there is smoke here somewhere. It's been my experience that people who sound the alarm bells about a race war in the U.S. most vociferously are usually those who want it to happen.

    Even Spencer's mentor Jared Taylor has renounced explicitly violence as a means to achieve what he seeks. In fact, he is rather disparaging of the "Aryan race warrior" types in public (though Taylor has a coy habit of associating with characters whose principles seem to cross his on this score).

    Yes, some years ago. To my knowledge there is no one associated with that site who is getting front page treatment in the newspapers today (though I read that the son of the founder of that site is now a dreadlocked hip-hop artist living with a black woman).

    The white flight of Derek Black

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    The white flight of Derek Black
     
    I don't recall, but I read elsewhere that he now has a black girl friend, sports dreadlocks, and is making a go of it as a rap artist.

    Pity. There is a rather wide spectrum of lifestyles betwen that and being a front man for StormFront.
  108. @Twinkie

    the half-Chinese Australian sniper Billy Sing at Gallipoli
     
    https://youtu.be/d3oVr0CKU4o

    They couldn't find a half-Asian actor, eh? The portrayal of his father John Sing - a full blooded Chinese immigrant - with a completely European-looking actor was a nice touch. I guess kids call this "white-washing."

    Anyone who has heard of neither Idriess nor Sing would have a bit of a nerve referring to himself as Australian.
     
    Prior to the more recent publicity, how many Australians knew of Sing or that he was half-Chinese? He seemed to have died in obscurity.

    I have known about Billy Sing since I was a young teenager, because I loved Idriess’ writing and avidly devoured everything he ever published. But I would guess very few Australians knew of Sing or acknowledged him as any kind of Australian war hero. He was a small, skinny man with a notable East Asian cast to his appearance, and just didn’t fit the mythical image of the big bronzed Anzac. His efforts were recognised by the Australian military at the time, but he was soon forgotten after the war. And yes, he did die in impoverished obscurity.

    I was first pleased when I heard that a TV series about him was being planned, but then outraged when they cast Anglo-Australian actors in the parts of Billy and his father. There was some criticism voiced by the Australian Chinese community, but the producers just fobbed it off with some bullshit about how they didn’t have a big enough budget to go looking for actors of more authentic appearance. Disgusted, I made a point of not watching the series. It seems to have made little impression – I certainly didn’t see any critical acclaim of it, but then I didn’t go looking.

    Just colour me appalled by the whole embarrassing mess.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    He was a small, skinny man with a notable East Asian cast to his appearance, and just didn’t fit the mythical image of the big bronzed Anzac.
     
    Snipers often don't fit the assumed archetype - the "White Death" stood at about the same height as my wife:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4

    Peace.
  109. @iffen
    Thanks for the indulgence. :)

    But the tone of this question strikes me as both presumptious and ill-intended.

    Just dabbling in giving back something in the tone that I see in some of your comments about and toward me.

    I am an assimilationist, so I encourage Asians – males and females – to marry whites

    Interesting, I see a lot of diversity in marriages these days, but I don’t see many public advocates for the intentional merging of the races. I noticed that you specified whites. Is this intentional? What about other races?

    I’ll take that as a “I am sorry.”

    No, it is not any sort of apology for anything that I have written, just an acknowledgement that the clarity of my writing is sub-par. Apology for style, not substance.

    the appeal of Clinton to identity politics crossed a barrier that was previously in place.

    You seemed not to have paid attention to politics much in the past.

    This would be you, not me. We can leave this aside as to whether this election was the beginning of something different or just more of the same. I can agree to disagree.

    when our enemies are making a mistake

    Our. Much progress has been made.

    we ought to help them by “building a golden bridge” as the ancient saying goes.

    Yes. Let’s hope the Democrats select the Black Muslim to be DNC chair.
    A caveat here would be that this would continue to drive the racial and ethnic divide. Taken to the extreme many, many years into the future it would be disaster. I think it is worth the short term risk in order to cause the collapse of the Democratic Party.

    you ought to acknowledge that there is a rather large gulf between “ethnic identity politics” and “race war.”

    This was the main point of my last comment. I say extremely large gulf. Whether the problem is my writing or your comprehension, or some combination, I can’t say. :)

    who sound the alarm bells about a race war in the U.S.

    I am not worried about race war at this point in time. I am worried about the increasingly open appeal to race and identity without any pretense of homage to a “higher” common political identity in what passes for normal politics. I also take note of those on the right who are trying to drum up support for the creation of a "white" identity, with or without the Nazi trimmings.

    though Taylor has a coy habit of associating with characters

    tells me that there is smoke here somewhere.

    Just dabbling in giving back something in the tone that I see in some of your comments about and toward me.

    I feel like the next response is going to be “That’s what you are, but what am I?” In other words, the conversation has degenerated into the personal, and that’s not productive. I am going to refrain from commenting on your comments. It would be nice if you reciprocated.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    when our enemies are making a mistake

    Okay, but I want to point out that this helps our enemies.
  110. @Johann Ricke

    Yes, some years ago. To my knowledge there is no one associated with that site who is getting front page treatment in the newspapers today (though I read that the son of the founder of that site is now a dreadlocked hip-hop artist living with a black woman).
     
    The white flight of Derek Black

    The white flight of Derek Black

    I don’t recall, but I read elsewhere that he now has a black girl friend, sports dreadlocks, and is making a go of it as a rap artist.

    Pity. There is a rather wide spectrum of lifestyles betwen that and being a front man for StormFront.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Twinkie,

    Don't knock it man - the White boys can bring it!

    One of the absolute best on-your-feet-free-styling I have ever heard:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAu1WVtD1Xc

    Peace.
  111. @Twinkie

    Just dabbling in giving back something in the tone that I see in some of your comments about and toward me.
     
    I feel like the next response is going to be "That's what you are, but what am I?" In other words, the conversation has degenerated into the personal, and that's not productive. I am going to refrain from commenting on your comments. It would be nice if you reciprocated.

    when our enemies are making a mistake

    Okay, but I want to point out that this helps our enemies.

    Read More
  112. @John Massey
    I have known about Billy Sing since I was a young teenager, because I loved Idriess' writing and avidly devoured everything he ever published. But I would guess very few Australians knew of Sing or acknowledged him as any kind of Australian war hero. He was a small, skinny man with a notable East Asian cast to his appearance, and just didn't fit the mythical image of the big bronzed Anzac. His efforts were recognised by the Australian military at the time, but he was soon forgotten after the war. And yes, he did die in impoverished obscurity.

    I was first pleased when I heard that a TV series about him was being planned, but then outraged when they cast Anglo-Australian actors in the parts of Billy and his father. There was some criticism voiced by the Australian Chinese community, but the producers just fobbed it off with some bullshit about how they didn't have a big enough budget to go looking for actors of more authentic appearance. Disgusted, I made a point of not watching the series. It seems to have made little impression - I certainly didn't see any critical acclaim of it, but then I didn't go looking.

    Just colour me appalled by the whole embarrassing mess.

    He was a small, skinny man with a notable East Asian cast to his appearance, and just didn’t fit the mythical image of the big bronzed Anzac.

    Snipers often don’t fit the assumed archetype – the “White Death” stood at about the same height as my wife:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @John Massey
    Billy Sing was 5'5" - same height as my daughter.

    A movie has just been released about the female Russian sniper Liudmyla Pavlychenko, one of the most successful snipers of all time. According to Wikipedia, the Red Army had 2,000 female snipers in WWII, of whom only 500 survived the war.
    , @Twinkie

    Snipers often don’t fit the assumed archetype
     
    Actually the stereotype of a sniper is usually that of a somewhat physically dimunitive, unassuming person who blends in well - in other words, they don't look like Arnold Schwarzenegger in "Commando" or any number of other freakishly large and muscular movie tough guys. A friend of mine is a retired SF sniper. He's about 5' 7" on a good day and slightly built. He is a great shooter, to be sure, but his fieldcraft is truly amazing.

    And the following point is somewhat tangentially related to John Massey's earlier comment about Sing not fitting "the mythical image of the big bronzed Anzac," but it's something I found odd. For some reason, in the Anglosphere, there is this persistent stereotype that East Asians are coke bottle glasses-wearing nerds who can't shoot well... which is odd given that East Asians dominate several international shooting sports. For example, of the last four men to win Olympic gold medals in 10m air pistol, three were Chinese or Korean. The fourth, the latest winner, was Vietnamese (he beat out a Brazilian national, Felipe Wu, who won silver).

    And that stereotype seems to be limited largely to Anglophone countries (minus Canada) while other Europeans don't appear to harbor it. I did some training with Norwegians at one point, and those guys assumed that I was the best shooter in my team, probably because of my ethnicity (the rest of the team was all white).
  113. @Twinkie

    The white flight of Derek Black
     
    I don't recall, but I read elsewhere that he now has a black girl friend, sports dreadlocks, and is making a go of it as a rap artist.

    Pity. There is a rather wide spectrum of lifestyles betwen that and being a front man for StormFront.

    Hey Twinkie,

    Don’t knock it man – the White boys can bring it!

    One of the absolute best on-your-feet-free-styling I have ever heard:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAu1WVtD1Xc

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie
    I have no opinion on Derek Black's musical ability, whatever his genre. My "pity" comment was regarding what appears to me to be his swaying from one extreme to another. When people do a dramatic shift as he did, it tends not to put their former associations in disrepute. It would have been better if he had disavowed white supremacism and then continued on his life as more-or-less a normal person (perhaps get his Ph.D. in medieval history and become an academic) rather than someone who seems like a wannabe-black social justice warrior.
  114. @Talha

    He was a small, skinny man with a notable East Asian cast to his appearance, and just didn’t fit the mythical image of the big bronzed Anzac.
     
    Snipers often don't fit the assumed archetype - the "White Death" stood at about the same height as my wife:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4

    Peace.

    Billy Sing was 5’5″ – same height as my daughter.

    A movie has just been released about the female Russian sniper Liudmyla Pavlychenko, one of the most successful snipers of all time. According to Wikipedia, the Red Army had 2,000 female snipers in WWII, of whom only 500 survived the war.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    According to Wikipedia, the Red Army had 2,000 female snipers in WWII, of whom only 500 survived the war.
     
    I take the Red Army propaganda about its female combatants, snipers included, with a giant grain of salt. Communists had a thing for egalitarianism - including that of the sexes - and had a penchant for heroic pronouncements about the supposed battle performances of their female revolutionary comrades. Most of them was so much hot air.

    I might have mentioned before that I have trained a fairly large number of people in shooting. By far, women had the best attitudes. Most were initially apprehensive, but generally listened well, followed directions well, and were careful. It was easy to make most them decent shooters in short order (the hardest female to train was my own wife, who already had existing shooting experience before I taught her - so she had a lot of bad habits that were hard to break). Usually once females get over the flinching and anticipating recoil, they do well.

    Most men were not so cooperative. Most had TV knowledge of gun handling (which is far worse than no knowledge) and refused to be taught until sufficiently embarrassed. However, the ones who were naturally gifted and/or learned well turned out to be superb shooters, far better than any female I trained.
    , @Talha
    Hey JM,

    Reminds me of the female snipers of the Chechen insurgency, dubbed the 'White Widows'.

    Peace.
  115. @Talha
    Hey Twinkie,

    Don't knock it man - the White boys can bring it!

    One of the absolute best on-your-feet-free-styling I have ever heard:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAu1WVtD1Xc

    Peace.

    I have no opinion on Derek Black’s musical ability, whatever his genre. My “pity” comment was regarding what appears to me to be his swaying from one extreme to another. When people do a dramatic shift as he did, it tends not to put their former associations in disrepute. It would have been better if he had disavowed white supremacism and then continued on his life as more-or-less a normal person (perhaps get his Ph.D. in medieval history and become an academic) rather than someone who seems like a wannabe-black social justice warrior.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Twinkie,

    Can't argue with that logic. He's young, maybe it's just a phase - he might just calibrate into the normal spectrum in a few years after having lived on the flip side of the coin.

    Peace.
  116. @Talha

    He was a small, skinny man with a notable East Asian cast to his appearance, and just didn’t fit the mythical image of the big bronzed Anzac.
     
    Snipers often don't fit the assumed archetype - the "White Death" stood at about the same height as my wife:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4

    Peace.

    Snipers often don’t fit the assumed archetype

    Actually the stereotype of a sniper is usually that of a somewhat physically dimunitive, unassuming person who blends in well – in other words, they don’t look like Arnold Schwarzenegger in “Commando” or any number of other freakishly large and muscular movie tough guys. A friend of mine is a retired SF sniper. He’s about 5′ 7″ on a good day and slightly built. He is a great shooter, to be sure, but his fieldcraft is truly amazing.

    And the following point is somewhat tangentially related to John Massey’s earlier comment about Sing not fitting “the mythical image of the big bronzed Anzac,” but it’s something I found odd. For some reason, in the Anglosphere, there is this persistent stereotype that East Asians are coke bottle glasses-wearing nerds who can’t shoot well… which is odd given that East Asians dominate several international shooting sports. For example, of the last four men to win Olympic gold medals in 10m air pistol, three were Chinese or Korean. The fourth, the latest winner, was Vietnamese (he beat out a Brazilian national, Felipe Wu, who won silver).

    And that stereotype seems to be limited largely to Anglophone countries (minus Canada) while other Europeans don’t appear to harbor it. I did some training with Norwegians at one point, and those guys assumed that I was the best shooter in my team, probably because of my ethnicity (the rest of the team was all white).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Twinkie,

    there is this persistent stereotype that East Asians are coke bottle glasses-wearing nerds who can’t shoot well
     
    I say let them keep their delusions - they won't know what hit 'em when it does. Anybody that has read into (even partially) the martial history of China and Japan should know these are foolish notions.

    that stereotype seems to be limited largely to Anglophone countries
     
    Possibly because it's because Anglos are the ones that militarily dominated those East Asian countries - French were too busy in Africa, Spaniards were all over the place but not China and Japan. A whiff of 'rule, rule Britannia'...

    Peace.
  117. @John Massey
    Billy Sing was 5'5" - same height as my daughter.

    A movie has just been released about the female Russian sniper Liudmyla Pavlychenko, one of the most successful snipers of all time. According to Wikipedia, the Red Army had 2,000 female snipers in WWII, of whom only 500 survived the war.

    According to Wikipedia, the Red Army had 2,000 female snipers in WWII, of whom only 500 survived the war.

    I take the Red Army propaganda about its female combatants, snipers included, with a giant grain of salt. Communists had a thing for egalitarianism – including that of the sexes – and had a penchant for heroic pronouncements about the supposed battle performances of their female revolutionary comrades. Most of them was so much hot air.

    I might have mentioned before that I have trained a fairly large number of people in shooting. By far, women had the best attitudes. Most were initially apprehensive, but generally listened well, followed directions well, and were careful. It was easy to make most them decent shooters in short order (the hardest female to train was my own wife, who already had existing shooting experience before I taught her – so she had a lot of bad habits that were hard to break). Usually once females get over the flinching and anticipating recoil, they do well.

    Most men were not so cooperative. Most had TV knowledge of gun handling (which is far worse than no knowledge) and refused to be taught until sufficiently embarrassed. However, the ones who were naturally gifted and/or learned well turned out to be superb shooters, far better than any female I trained.

    Read More
  118. @John Massey
    Billy Sing was 5'5" - same height as my daughter.

    A movie has just been released about the female Russian sniper Liudmyla Pavlychenko, one of the most successful snipers of all time. According to Wikipedia, the Red Army had 2,000 female snipers in WWII, of whom only 500 survived the war.

    Hey JM,

    Reminds me of the female snipers of the Chechen insurgency, dubbed the ‘White Widows’.

    Peace.

    Read More
  119. @Twinkie
    I have no opinion on Derek Black's musical ability, whatever his genre. My "pity" comment was regarding what appears to me to be his swaying from one extreme to another. When people do a dramatic shift as he did, it tends not to put their former associations in disrepute. It would have been better if he had disavowed white supremacism and then continued on his life as more-or-less a normal person (perhaps get his Ph.D. in medieval history and become an academic) rather than someone who seems like a wannabe-black social justice warrior.

    Hey Twinkie,

    Can’t argue with that logic. He’s young, maybe it’s just a phase – he might just calibrate into the normal spectrum in a few years after having lived on the flip side of the coin.

    Peace.

    Read More
  120. @Twinkie

    Snipers often don’t fit the assumed archetype
     
    Actually the stereotype of a sniper is usually that of a somewhat physically dimunitive, unassuming person who blends in well - in other words, they don't look like Arnold Schwarzenegger in "Commando" or any number of other freakishly large and muscular movie tough guys. A friend of mine is a retired SF sniper. He's about 5' 7" on a good day and slightly built. He is a great shooter, to be sure, but his fieldcraft is truly amazing.

    And the following point is somewhat tangentially related to John Massey's earlier comment about Sing not fitting "the mythical image of the big bronzed Anzac," but it's something I found odd. For some reason, in the Anglosphere, there is this persistent stereotype that East Asians are coke bottle glasses-wearing nerds who can't shoot well... which is odd given that East Asians dominate several international shooting sports. For example, of the last four men to win Olympic gold medals in 10m air pistol, three were Chinese or Korean. The fourth, the latest winner, was Vietnamese (he beat out a Brazilian national, Felipe Wu, who won silver).

    And that stereotype seems to be limited largely to Anglophone countries (minus Canada) while other Europeans don't appear to harbor it. I did some training with Norwegians at one point, and those guys assumed that I was the best shooter in my team, probably because of my ethnicity (the rest of the team was all white).

    Hey Twinkie,

    there is this persistent stereotype that East Asians are coke bottle glasses-wearing nerds who can’t shoot well

    I say let them keep their delusions – they won’t know what hit ‘em when it does. Anybody that has read into (even partially) the martial history of China and Japan should know these are foolish notions.

    that stereotype seems to be limited largely to Anglophone countries

    Possibly because it’s because Anglos are the ones that militarily dominated those East Asian countries – French were too busy in Africa, Spaniards were all over the place but not China and Japan. A whiff of ‘rule, rule Britannia’…

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Twinkie

    I say let them keep their delusions – they won’t know what hit ‘em when it does.
     
    I don't know exactly what you mean, but I don't harbor any hostility toward Anglophone countries. I am, dare I say, fond of them.

    Anybody that has read into (even partially) the martial history of China and Japan should know these are foolish notions.
     
    Martial history is typically elite history and may be unreflective of the general population. Also, Japan has not done well in shooting sports. It has had only one gold medal in Olympic shooting (Korea has had 7 while China has had over 20).

    Possibly because it’s because Anglos are the ones that militarily dominated those East Asian countries – French were too busy in Africa, Spaniards were all over the place but not China and Japan. A whiff of ‘rule, rule Britannia’…
     
    That explanation is unsatisfactory, to say the least. Many nations participated in the colonial domination of China (see the troops that suppressed the Boxer Rebellion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion#/media/File:Boxer2y.jpg). In fact, the German Foreign Office edited Kaiser Wilhelm II's embarrassing "Hun speech" (http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/pdf/eng/503_Wilhelm%20II_Hun%20Speech_84.pdf)... which some blame for the atrocities and looting that followed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion#Occupation.2C_looting_and_atrocities

    Japan was not militarily dominated by anybody until the Pacific War, and even then only by the might of the United States. Britain, France, and the Netherlands all suffered humiliations when the Japanese ran amok in the early part of the war. The Fall of Singapore, in particular, was the most shameful defeat Great Britain suffered in modern history.

    My suspicion is that the asexual Asian nerd stereotype is strong in the Anglophone countries due to the size and particular selection of immigrants from East Asia they received. Other European countries with far fewer East Asians tend to exoticize them and sometimes ascribe to them a different set of traits.
  121. @Talha
    Hey Twinkie,

    there is this persistent stereotype that East Asians are coke bottle glasses-wearing nerds who can’t shoot well
     
    I say let them keep their delusions - they won't know what hit 'em when it does. Anybody that has read into (even partially) the martial history of China and Japan should know these are foolish notions.

    that stereotype seems to be limited largely to Anglophone countries
     
    Possibly because it's because Anglos are the ones that militarily dominated those East Asian countries - French were too busy in Africa, Spaniards were all over the place but not China and Japan. A whiff of 'rule, rule Britannia'...

    Peace.

    I say let them keep their delusions – they won’t know what hit ‘em when it does.

    I don’t know exactly what you mean, but I don’t harbor any hostility toward Anglophone countries. I am, dare I say, fond of them.

    Anybody that has read into (even partially) the martial history of China and Japan should know these are foolish notions.

    Martial history is typically elite history and may be unreflective of the general population. Also, Japan has not done well in shooting sports. It has had only one gold medal in Olympic shooting (Korea has had 7 while China has had over 20).

    Possibly because it’s because Anglos are the ones that militarily dominated those East Asian countries – French were too busy in Africa, Spaniards were all over the place but not China and Japan. A whiff of ‘rule, rule Britannia’…

    That explanation is unsatisfactory, to say the least. Many nations participated in the colonial domination of China (see the troops that suppressed the Boxer Rebellion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion#/media/File:Boxer2y.jpg). In fact, the German Foreign Office edited Kaiser Wilhelm II’s embarrassing “Hun speech” (http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/pdf/eng/503_Wilhelm%20II_Hun%20Speech_84.pdf)… which some blame for the atrocities and looting that followed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion#Occupation.2C_looting_and_atrocities

    Japan was not militarily dominated by anybody until the Pacific War, and even then only by the might of the United States. Britain, France, and the Netherlands all suffered humiliations when the Japanese ran amok in the early part of the war. The Fall of Singapore, in particular, was the most shameful defeat Great Britain suffered in modern history.

    My suspicion is that the asexual Asian nerd stereotype is strong in the Anglophone countries due to the size and particular selection of immigrants from East Asia they received. Other European countries with far fewer East Asians tend to exoticize them and sometimes ascribe to them a different set of traits.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Twinkie,

    I don’t harbor any hostility toward Anglophone countries
     
    Neither do I - except their rotten governments. But I was more talking on a personal level, if you ever find yourself in a walk-twenty-paces-turn-and-fire scenario with an Anglo that underestimates you - totally to your advantage.

    I forgot all bout the Japanese going crazy in the Pacific theater and rampaging over Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. You may be onto something with the kinds of immigrants they received from those places. Maybe if there were more Triad running around, we'd have Godfather-like movies in popular culture defining the perception.

    Peace.
  122. @Twinkie

    I say let them keep their delusions – they won’t know what hit ‘em when it does.
     
    I don't know exactly what you mean, but I don't harbor any hostility toward Anglophone countries. I am, dare I say, fond of them.

    Anybody that has read into (even partially) the martial history of China and Japan should know these are foolish notions.
     
    Martial history is typically elite history and may be unreflective of the general population. Also, Japan has not done well in shooting sports. It has had only one gold medal in Olympic shooting (Korea has had 7 while China has had over 20).

    Possibly because it’s because Anglos are the ones that militarily dominated those East Asian countries – French were too busy in Africa, Spaniards were all over the place but not China and Japan. A whiff of ‘rule, rule Britannia’…
     
    That explanation is unsatisfactory, to say the least. Many nations participated in the colonial domination of China (see the troops that suppressed the Boxer Rebellion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion#/media/File:Boxer2y.jpg). In fact, the German Foreign Office edited Kaiser Wilhelm II's embarrassing "Hun speech" (http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/pdf/eng/503_Wilhelm%20II_Hun%20Speech_84.pdf)... which some blame for the atrocities and looting that followed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion#Occupation.2C_looting_and_atrocities

    Japan was not militarily dominated by anybody until the Pacific War, and even then only by the might of the United States. Britain, France, and the Netherlands all suffered humiliations when the Japanese ran amok in the early part of the war. The Fall of Singapore, in particular, was the most shameful defeat Great Britain suffered in modern history.

    My suspicion is that the asexual Asian nerd stereotype is strong in the Anglophone countries due to the size and particular selection of immigrants from East Asia they received. Other European countries with far fewer East Asians tend to exoticize them and sometimes ascribe to them a different set of traits.

    Hey Twinkie,

    I don’t harbor any hostility toward Anglophone countries

    Neither do I – except their rotten governments. But I was more talking on a personal level, if you ever find yourself in a walk-twenty-paces-turn-and-fire scenario with an Anglo that underestimates you – totally to your advantage.

    I forgot all bout the Japanese going crazy in the Pacific theater and rampaging over Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. You may be onto something with the kinds of immigrants they received from those places. Maybe if there were more Triad running around, we’d have Godfather-like movies in popular culture defining the perception.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Neither do I – except their rotten governments.

    Not anymore! :)
  123. @Talha
    Hey Twinkie,

    I don’t harbor any hostility toward Anglophone countries
     
    Neither do I - except their rotten governments. But I was more talking on a personal level, if you ever find yourself in a walk-twenty-paces-turn-and-fire scenario with an Anglo that underestimates you - totally to your advantage.

    I forgot all bout the Japanese going crazy in the Pacific theater and rampaging over Malaysia, Indonesia, etc. You may be onto something with the kinds of immigrants they received from those places. Maybe if there were more Triad running around, we'd have Godfather-like movies in popular culture defining the perception.

    Peace.

    Neither do I – except their rotten governments.

    Not anymore! :)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Ha ha! The Trump doth triumph!

    I anxiously await his metamorphosis into Shai Hulud and his plotting our future firmly on the Golden Path!

    "'The problem of leadership is inevitably: Who will play god?' Paul Muad'Dib”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Emperor_of_Dune

    Peace.
  124. @iffen
    Neither do I – except their rotten governments.

    Not anymore! :)

    Ha ha! The Trump doth triumph!

    I anxiously await his metamorphosis into Shai Hulud and his plotting our future firmly on the Golden Path!

    “‘The problem of leadership is inevitably: Who will play god?’ Paul Muad’Dib”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Emperor_of_Dune

    Peace.

    Read More

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