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51I3Hux0TsL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_ I reread Colin Woodward’s American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America on the plane recently. It’s a less scholarly work than Albion’s Seed or The Cousins’ Wars: Religion, Politics, Civil Warfare, And The Triumph Of Anglo-America, but arguably more straightforwardly relevant to modern conditions and events. I’m rather sure that Woodward would be interested in a further edition which updated with the goings on of the 2016 election campaign, if he’s not working on it already (an important complement, Replenishing the Earth: The Settler Revolution and the Rise of the Angloworld, 1783-1939, which takes a broader Anglospheric view).

The important point here is that initially developed cultural folkways can be persistent and reinforcing. The author observes that Nordic immigrants seem to have almost invariably chosen the region of the American frontier dominated by a Yankee ethos, the Upper Midwest. Though they overwhelmed this region demographically, rather than changing the culture, they simply accentuated its longstanding features, which were established by Yankees (e.g., social progressivism and communitarianism).

What else is going on? Going to be at ASHG a lot this week.

 
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  1. What’s your recommendation for an into book into population genetics?

    Also Razib, do you believe evolution is ‘progressive’?

  2. Woodard did publish a new book this year: https://www.amazon.com/American-Character-History-Struggle-Individual/dp/0525427899/

    It contains more discussion of the different American Nations, but I haven’t read it, so I’m not sure what else it’s about.

  3. Razib writes:

    “Though they overwhelmed this region demographically, rather than changing the culture, they simply accentuated its longstanding features, which were established by Yankees (e.g., social progressivism and communitarianism).”

    Indeed. Scandinavia and Northern German, or better still, Lutheran protestantism as a whole could be viewed as a template for those values even more so than the Yankee version touted by Hackett Fisher.

    • Replies: @ohwilleke
    Plenty of Catholics too. In much of the Upper Midwest, communities were settled along rail lines deliberately alternating between Catholic towns and Lutheran ones every other stop.
  4. Is there really that much of difference between Nordic beliefs and “Yankee” ones? Maybe that distinction is evident to white people but to me it seems like they’re reinforcing…. themselves.

    • Replies: @Mike Keesey
    Yeah, I thought the point in the book was that the Nordic immigrants sought out areas with values that already agreed with theirs, not that they adopted Yankee ways.

    Another interesting thing to note: David Hackett Fisher makes the case that the core of Puritanism was East Anglian, and that a lot of Yankee folkways are East Anglian in origin. East Anglia was once part of the Danelaw ... could some of those Nordic/Yankee commonalities date back to then?
  5. Hi, I know you read a lot of history books. I’m curious as to your reading style. How much of a book do you remember on average? Do you read these books casually (in bed) or do you make a serious study of them?

    Personally, I find it useful when reading history to explain in my head the last several paragraphs. I can remember a lot of what I read by doing this.

  6. @Alan
    Razib writes:

    "Though they overwhelmed this region demographically, rather than changing the culture, they simply accentuated its longstanding features, which were established by Yankees (e.g., social progressivism and communitarianism)."

    Indeed. Scandinavia and Northern German, or better still, Lutheran protestantism as a whole could be viewed as a template for those values even more so than the Yankee version touted by Hackett Fisher.

    Plenty of Catholics too. In much of the Upper Midwest, communities were settled along rail lines deliberately alternating between Catholic towns and Lutheran ones every other stop.

  7. The important point here is that initially developed cultural folkways can be persistent and reinforcing. The author observes that Nordic immigrants seem to have almost invariably chosen the region of the American frontier dominated by a Yankee ethos, the Upper Midwest. Though they overwhelmed this region demographically, rather than changing the culture, they simply accentuated its longstanding features, which were established by Yankees (e.g., social progressivism and communitarianism).

    North Dakota (most Nordic state in US) throws a big wrench in the progressivism part of this theory. If they are progressive, then so was Meir Kahane.

    In my experience, having a Norwegian grandma and having grown up around a lot of recent Norwegian immigrants as well, Nordic people may not want to rock the boat and they may be conformist to some degree, but they are deeply conservative people if they are not in big cities. Most Nordics who vote Democrat in my neck of the woods (NW Washington state — lots of them here) do so for traditional blue-collar reasons, i.e. pro-union sentiment. But to call them progressives would be, quite frankly, hilariously absurd. Hell, I’m considerably more progressive than most of them, and I’d be called a far right-winger in comparable Anglo towns like Port Townsend.

    Also, Nordic people didn’t choose Yankee states because of the Yankee ethos, but because that’s where the jobs they knew how to do could be found. Farming where there are brutal winters, fishing in rough, cold seas, lumberjacking and so on. As recently as the 1960s Nordic people were considered low-class simpletons by Anglos, often the butt of jokes. Even here in Whatcom County, where the Dutch are the dominant ethnicity, the local Icelanders are considered underclass, as they are known mainly for raising chickens and weasels, whereas the dominant Dutch (totally ruthless capitalist Calvinists themselves) own enormous dairy farms and dominate right-wing talk radio.

    BTW, a Hillary-supporting Turk just murdered five innocent whites in the nearby Norwegian stronghold of Mt. Vernon, WA. Two were related to a co-worker: a 60-something woman and her 95-year-old mother (what a scumbag). While at work with the guys, they were saying the guy should be tortured to death. I said he should probably be put down, but humanely. I defended my position by saying it would only make a martyr out of him, and anyway there’s no point in adding savagery to an already savage act. I was shouted down vehemently. These are the Nordics I know.

    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    North Dakota (most Nordic state in US) throws a big wrench in the progressivism part of this theory. If they are progressive, then so was Meir Kahane.

    can you count? north dakota has a pop of less than 1 million. use english normally, that's not a 'big wrench.'

    In my experience, having a Norwegian grandma and having grown up around a lot of recent Norwegian immigrants as well, Nordic people may not want to rock the boat and they may be conformist to some degree, but they are deeply conservative people if they are not in big cities.

    you are throwing terms around incoherently. new england yankees in rural areas are also conservative. as my previous post indicates, there are different types of conservatism. i don't mean progressive in the sense of of modern american politics.

    Farming where there are brutal winters, fishing in rough, cold seas, lumberjacking and so on.

    this deterministic account is too simple. swedes started in delaware, and that's where the log cabin began with finns.

    the anti-slavery affinities of german protestants and other northern europeans are well attested in any history.

    this comment was kind of dumb. stop being dumb, it annoys me.

    , @Pseudonymic Handle
    Why do they raise weasels?
  8. @Bill P

    The important point here is that initially developed cultural folkways can be persistent and reinforcing. The author observes that Nordic immigrants seem to have almost invariably chosen the region of the American frontier dominated by a Yankee ethos, the Upper Midwest. Though they overwhelmed this region demographically, rather than changing the culture, they simply accentuated its longstanding features, which were established by Yankees (e.g., social progressivism and communitarianism).
     
    North Dakota (most Nordic state in US) throws a big wrench in the progressivism part of this theory. If they are progressive, then so was Meir Kahane.

    In my experience, having a Norwegian grandma and having grown up around a lot of recent Norwegian immigrants as well, Nordic people may not want to rock the boat and they may be conformist to some degree, but they are deeply conservative people if they are not in big cities. Most Nordics who vote Democrat in my neck of the woods (NW Washington state -- lots of them here) do so for traditional blue-collar reasons, i.e. pro-union sentiment. But to call them progressives would be, quite frankly, hilariously absurd. Hell, I'm considerably more progressive than most of them, and I'd be called a far right-winger in comparable Anglo towns like Port Townsend.

    Also, Nordic people didn't choose Yankee states because of the Yankee ethos, but because that's where the jobs they knew how to do could be found. Farming where there are brutal winters, fishing in rough, cold seas, lumberjacking and so on. As recently as the 1960s Nordic people were considered low-class simpletons by Anglos, often the butt of jokes. Even here in Whatcom County, where the Dutch are the dominant ethnicity, the local Icelanders are considered underclass, as they are known mainly for raising chickens and weasels, whereas the dominant Dutch (totally ruthless capitalist Calvinists themselves) own enormous dairy farms and dominate right-wing talk radio.

    BTW, a Hillary-supporting Turk just murdered five innocent whites in the nearby Norwegian stronghold of Mt. Vernon, WA. Two were related to a co-worker: a 60-something woman and her 95-year-old mother (what a scumbag). While at work with the guys, they were saying the guy should be tortured to death. I said he should probably be put down, but humanely. I defended my position by saying it would only make a martyr out of him, and anyway there's no point in adding savagery to an already savage act. I was shouted down vehemently. These are the Nordics I know.

    North Dakota (most Nordic state in US) throws a big wrench in the progressivism part of this theory. If they are progressive, then so was Meir Kahane.

    can you count? north dakota has a pop of less than 1 million. use english normally, that’s not a ‘big wrench.’

    In my experience, having a Norwegian grandma and having grown up around a lot of recent Norwegian immigrants as well, Nordic people may not want to rock the boat and they may be conformist to some degree, but they are deeply conservative people if they are not in big cities.

    you are throwing terms around incoherently. new england yankees in rural areas are also conservative. as my previous post indicates, there are different types of conservatism. i don’t mean progressive in the sense of of modern american politics.

    Farming where there are brutal winters, fishing in rough, cold seas, lumberjacking and so on.

    this deterministic account is too simple. swedes started in delaware, and that’s where the log cabin began with finns.

    the anti-slavery affinities of german protestants and other northern europeans are well attested in any history.

    this comment was kind of dumb. stop being dumb, it annoys me.

    • Replies: @Thursday
    I once took a look at the counties in the Dakotas and Minnesota that voted R or D in recent presidential elections. Rural counties that went D were overwhelmingly either heavily Native/Indian or heavily Norwegian. The counties that voted R tended to be more German. Diverse urban counties in Minnesota (Twin Cities, but also places like Duluth) also tend to go D. Swedishness didn't have much impact.

    Upshot: Scandinavians are often liberal even in rural areas.

    , @Bill P

    this comment was kind of dumb. stop being dumb, it annoys me.
     
    Oh have a heart. In the last few weeks the only free time I have to comment coincides with the only free time I have to drink a beer or three. I'm training for a new job and I have three kids from age 2-11 plus an ornery wife.

    When I get some peace and quiet in the mornings (I will soon) then feel free to hold me to the highest standards.
  9. One of the four major strains symptomatic of HPV, 16A, was probably acquired from archaic hominins. http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.com/2016/10/hpv-strain-16a-was-acquired-via-sex.html

  10. @Razib Khan
    North Dakota (most Nordic state in US) throws a big wrench in the progressivism part of this theory. If they are progressive, then so was Meir Kahane.

    can you count? north dakota has a pop of less than 1 million. use english normally, that's not a 'big wrench.'

    In my experience, having a Norwegian grandma and having grown up around a lot of recent Norwegian immigrants as well, Nordic people may not want to rock the boat and they may be conformist to some degree, but they are deeply conservative people if they are not in big cities.

    you are throwing terms around incoherently. new england yankees in rural areas are also conservative. as my previous post indicates, there are different types of conservatism. i don't mean progressive in the sense of of modern american politics.

    Farming where there are brutal winters, fishing in rough, cold seas, lumberjacking and so on.

    this deterministic account is too simple. swedes started in delaware, and that's where the log cabin began with finns.

    the anti-slavery affinities of german protestants and other northern europeans are well attested in any history.

    this comment was kind of dumb. stop being dumb, it annoys me.

    I once took a look at the counties in the Dakotas and Minnesota that voted R or D in recent presidential elections. Rural counties that went D were overwhelmingly either heavily Native/Indian or heavily Norwegian. The counties that voted R tended to be more German. Diverse urban counties in Minnesota (Twin Cities, but also places like Duluth) also tend to go D. Swedishness didn’t have much impact.

    Upshot: Scandinavians are often liberal even in rural areas.

    • Replies: @Karl Zimmerman
    North Dakota is politically "conservative" in the modern era, but there were many atypical elements of its political development. Most notable by far was the Non-Partisan League, a (Norwegian-dominated) radical agrarian socialist group which took over the Republican Party in the state, and achieved a governing majority, in 1916. The NPL went into decline in the 1920s, but staged a comeback in the 1930s with the rising power of the left nationwide.

    Today North Dakota still has some evidence of its leftist legacy, including the only state-owned bank and grain mill in the country. North Dakota also has a total ban on the ability of non-family owned corporations to own farmland or operate farms. The Republican state government attempted to overturn this ban earlier this year, but the local Farmers Union mobilized against it, and it was defeated via ballot initiative by a three-to-one margin - showing that even if residents elect conservative Republicans, most do not hew to "free-market" ideology even today.

  11. What do you think about the preprint showing gene flow from the Paleo-Eskimos to the founding Na-Dene population and thus suggesting that the Paleo-Eskimo/Arctic Small Tool Tradition is the link between Na-Dene and Yeniseian?

    It’s a bit odd given the seemingly clear distinction between the coastal ASTt (Paleo-Eskimo) and interior Northern Archaic (thought to be Athapaskan) archaeological complexes. Archaeologists weren’t predisposed to a Paleo-Eskimo / Na-Dene connection – when they had their Dene-Yeniseian conference in 2012, Ben Potter certainly considered it less likely.

    • Replies: @Skarphedin

    Archaeologists weren’t predisposed to a Paleo-Eskimo / Na-Dene connection – when they had their Dene-Yeniseian conference in 2012, Ben Potter certainly considered it less likely.
     
    On further investigation, Don Dumond and Jack Ives were were willing to defend a Paleo-Eskimo - Na-Dene connection at the conference, but the papers aren't available online so I missed it. The defense appears to be (from a summary) largely that the archaeological record just isn't complete enough. It wouldn't be the first time.
  12. I mentioned in another thread that my Midwestern-born wife is of English, German, and Swedish ancestry. I should note further that in her extended family, there are three Christian denominations: Congregationalist, Catholic, and Lutheran. And, yes, they correspond EXACTLY to the three ethnic components in her extended family.

  13. @Bill P

    The important point here is that initially developed cultural folkways can be persistent and reinforcing. The author observes that Nordic immigrants seem to have almost invariably chosen the region of the American frontier dominated by a Yankee ethos, the Upper Midwest. Though they overwhelmed this region demographically, rather than changing the culture, they simply accentuated its longstanding features, which were established by Yankees (e.g., social progressivism and communitarianism).
     
    North Dakota (most Nordic state in US) throws a big wrench in the progressivism part of this theory. If they are progressive, then so was Meir Kahane.

    In my experience, having a Norwegian grandma and having grown up around a lot of recent Norwegian immigrants as well, Nordic people may not want to rock the boat and they may be conformist to some degree, but they are deeply conservative people if they are not in big cities. Most Nordics who vote Democrat in my neck of the woods (NW Washington state -- lots of them here) do so for traditional blue-collar reasons, i.e. pro-union sentiment. But to call them progressives would be, quite frankly, hilariously absurd. Hell, I'm considerably more progressive than most of them, and I'd be called a far right-winger in comparable Anglo towns like Port Townsend.

    Also, Nordic people didn't choose Yankee states because of the Yankee ethos, but because that's where the jobs they knew how to do could be found. Farming where there are brutal winters, fishing in rough, cold seas, lumberjacking and so on. As recently as the 1960s Nordic people were considered low-class simpletons by Anglos, often the butt of jokes. Even here in Whatcom County, where the Dutch are the dominant ethnicity, the local Icelanders are considered underclass, as they are known mainly for raising chickens and weasels, whereas the dominant Dutch (totally ruthless capitalist Calvinists themselves) own enormous dairy farms and dominate right-wing talk radio.

    BTW, a Hillary-supporting Turk just murdered five innocent whites in the nearby Norwegian stronghold of Mt. Vernon, WA. Two were related to a co-worker: a 60-something woman and her 95-year-old mother (what a scumbag). While at work with the guys, they were saying the guy should be tortured to death. I said he should probably be put down, but humanely. I defended my position by saying it would only make a martyr out of him, and anyway there's no point in adding savagery to an already savage act. I was shouted down vehemently. These are the Nordics I know.

    Why do they raise weasels?

  14. @Thursday
    I once took a look at the counties in the Dakotas and Minnesota that voted R or D in recent presidential elections. Rural counties that went D were overwhelmingly either heavily Native/Indian or heavily Norwegian. The counties that voted R tended to be more German. Diverse urban counties in Minnesota (Twin Cities, but also places like Duluth) also tend to go D. Swedishness didn't have much impact.

    Upshot: Scandinavians are often liberal even in rural areas.

    North Dakota is politically “conservative” in the modern era, but there were many atypical elements of its political development. Most notable by far was the Non-Partisan League, a (Norwegian-dominated) radical agrarian socialist group which took over the Republican Party in the state, and achieved a governing majority, in 1916. The NPL went into decline in the 1920s, but staged a comeback in the 1930s with the rising power of the left nationwide.

    Today North Dakota still has some evidence of its leftist legacy, including the only state-owned bank and grain mill in the country. North Dakota also has a total ban on the ability of non-family owned corporations to own farmland or operate farms. The Republican state government attempted to overturn this ban earlier this year, but the local Farmers Union mobilized against it, and it was defeated via ballot initiative by a three-to-one margin – showing that even if residents elect conservative Republicans, most do not hew to “free-market” ideology even today.

  15. Razib do you believe evolution is ‘progressive’?

    • Replies: @iffen
    Didn't you ask him this already?
  16. @RaceRealist88
    Razib do you believe evolution is 'progressive'?

    Didn’t you ask him this already?

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    Whoops, it said it didn't go through on my end last night. I guess something was wrong with commenting.
  17. @iffen
    Didn't you ask him this already?

    Whoops, it said it didn’t go through on my end last night. I guess something was wrong with commenting.

  18. I voted today. It’s easy in Colorado.

  19. @Skarphedin
    What do you think about the preprint showing gene flow from the Paleo-Eskimos to the founding Na-Dene population and thus suggesting that the Paleo-Eskimo/Arctic Small Tool Tradition is the link between Na-Dene and Yeniseian?

    It's a bit odd given the seemingly clear distinction between the coastal ASTt (Paleo-Eskimo) and interior Northern Archaic (thought to be Athapaskan) archaeological complexes. Archaeologists weren't predisposed to a Paleo-Eskimo / Na-Dene connection - when they had their Dene-Yeniseian conference in 2012, Ben Potter certainly considered it less likely.

    Archaeologists weren’t predisposed to a Paleo-Eskimo / Na-Dene connection – when they had their Dene-Yeniseian conference in 2012, Ben Potter certainly considered it less likely.

    On further investigation, Don Dumond and Jack Ives were were willing to defend a Paleo-Eskimo – Na-Dene connection at the conference, but the papers aren’t available online so I missed it. The defense appears to be (from a summary) largely that the archaeological record just isn’t complete enough. It wouldn’t be the first time.

  20. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I watched the new Netflix movie about Amanda Knox. Very good piece of propaganda, almost had me convinced of her innocence. But I looked deeper and found all the evidence that wasn’t reported or was glossed over by the American media. Have you looked into the case much, Razib? If so, I was wondering if you have an opinion on the supposedly “inconclusive” DNA evidence.

    • Replies: @Sean
    The police scientist who did the DNA testing on items from the suspects and victims did not supply the dates on which the samples were tested, meaning they could have been done on the same day in the same equipment with an attendant danger of cross contamination. She also kept amplifying the results beyond accepted limits (like blowing up a low resolution photo beyond a certain point). Knox's then-boyfriend hit the flimsy internal door hard enough to crack it when they could get no answer from Meredith. For a guilty couple hitting it like that in a fake attempt would have risked it being a bit weaker than it looked and flying open leaving them standing alone with the body before anyone else arrived. If guilty they would have had the key anyway (probably why no one was ever charged with stealing the key).
  21. @22pp22
    If you haven't seen this electoral map of Poland, you may find it interesting.

    http://images.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FK1TPZ.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FMapPorn%2Fcomments%2F15x2g1%2Foverlay_of_prussia_on_map_of_polish_parliamentary%2F&h=1275&w=1650&tbnid=DuICe6qdoLoHvM%3A&docid=lilHqLpi5nyMnM&ei=YFEFWJS8Asb4asqMiagJ&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=437&page=0&start=0&ndsp=45&ved=0ahUKEwiU7L6n8uLPAhVGvBoKHUpGApUQMwgfKAEwAQ&bih=971&biw=1920

    Can’t be a long term cultural difference, the Poles in the areas to the West the 1933 German border are descended mostly from people who migrated from the East after all the Germans were kicked out.

  22. @Jason Liu
    Is there really that much of difference between Nordic beliefs and "Yankee" ones? Maybe that distinction is evident to white people but to me it seems like they're reinforcing.... themselves.

    Yeah, I thought the point in the book was that the Nordic immigrants sought out areas with values that already agreed with theirs, not that they adopted Yankee ways.

    Another interesting thing to note: David Hackett Fisher makes the case that the core of Puritanism was East Anglian, and that a lot of Yankee folkways are East Anglian in origin. East Anglia was once part of the Danelaw … could some of those Nordic/Yankee commonalities date back to then?

  23. Have you read Joel Garreau’s Nine Nations of North America? It was published in 1980, but it does seem to cover the same ground. Just from looking at the maps (Nine Nations here, Eleven Nations here) In general, Garreau’s scheme puts less weight on decent and more on (then) current socio-economic conditions. So what Woodard calls “Yankeedom” and “the Midlands”, Garreau calls “New England” (which is the six US States + the Atlantic provinces), the “Foundry” and the “Breadbasket”, the later two labels indicates his economic concerns.

    One thing that bothers me is how both Lower Louisiana and Southern Quebec are classed as part of the same “nation” of New France. True, they shared a shared history of French rule and settlement that left some legacies like personal and place names and a (partial) Civil Law tradition. But they have so many divergences that they can’t real be classified together. The French language has died out in Louisiana for the most part, while in Quebec is it now the dominate public language. For the most part, they have completely opposite economic and social mores. How does Woodard deal with such divergences?

    Finally, let me riff on some stuff on Canadian history that I’ve never had the chance to write anywhere else, but maybe apropos here.

    I think Quebec may be one of the few places on Earth (larger than a city district or suburb) where the English language has regressed in status (I think you also argue Belize and Miami as well). Before the Quiet Revolution, English was the public language of Montreal, dominating the street signs of city and being the default language of public commerce. With the Quiet Revolution, Bill 101 and the fights that followed, English was expelled from the signs and ads (expect for the trademarks) unless it is half the size of the French. France and Paris probably has more English in its ads now than Quebec and Montreal. The retreat is also demographic, with rate of native English-speakers now below 10%. This is not news for Canadians or people familiar with Canadian history.

    What might surprise some people is how far back the demographic trends extend. Anglophones once constituted a large percentage of Quebec’s population in the years before the 1837 Rebellion, which has been constantly dropping ever since. For example, east of Montreal and the Richelieu River, along the US border, is the Eastern Townships. It was settled by various English-speakers in the years after the US War for Independence and thus had an English majority. But soon afterwards, the English farmers began to leave for better land in the West (just like their counterparts in Northern New England) and French-speakers began to come in. Some were alarmed enough by these demographic trends to demand annexation to the USA; one farmer was even killed when he sold his farm to some Francophones. But it was for naught and the region lost its Anglo-majority in the 1870’s and is now heavily French-speaking today. It think it is the only large region with English place names but with people speaking a different language; usually it is the other way around. It might make a good example of how differential migration rates can substantially change the character of a region.

    So in a sense, perhaps you could consider the Eastern Townships a part of “New England” or “Yankee” that was ‘annexed’ or ‘conquered’ by “Quebec” or “New France”.

  24. @Anonymous
    I watched the new Netflix movie about Amanda Knox. Very good piece of propaganda, almost had me convinced of her innocence. But I looked deeper and found all the evidence that wasn't reported or was glossed over by the American media. Have you looked into the case much, Razib? If so, I was wondering if you have an opinion on the supposedly "inconclusive" DNA evidence.

    The police scientist who did the DNA testing on items from the suspects and victims did not supply the dates on which the samples were tested, meaning they could have been done on the same day in the same equipment with an attendant danger of cross contamination. She also kept amplifying the results beyond accepted limits (like blowing up a low resolution photo beyond a certain point). Knox’s then-boyfriend hit the flimsy internal door hard enough to crack it when they could get no answer from Meredith. For a guilty couple hitting it like that in a fake attempt would have risked it being a bit weaker than it looked and flying open leaving them standing alone with the body before anyone else arrived. If guilty they would have had the key anyway (probably why no one was ever charged with stealing the key).

  25. @Razib Khan
    North Dakota (most Nordic state in US) throws a big wrench in the progressivism part of this theory. If they are progressive, then so was Meir Kahane.

    can you count? north dakota has a pop of less than 1 million. use english normally, that's not a 'big wrench.'

    In my experience, having a Norwegian grandma and having grown up around a lot of recent Norwegian immigrants as well, Nordic people may not want to rock the boat and they may be conformist to some degree, but they are deeply conservative people if they are not in big cities.

    you are throwing terms around incoherently. new england yankees in rural areas are also conservative. as my previous post indicates, there are different types of conservatism. i don't mean progressive in the sense of of modern american politics.

    Farming where there are brutal winters, fishing in rough, cold seas, lumberjacking and so on.

    this deterministic account is too simple. swedes started in delaware, and that's where the log cabin began with finns.

    the anti-slavery affinities of german protestants and other northern europeans are well attested in any history.

    this comment was kind of dumb. stop being dumb, it annoys me.

    this comment was kind of dumb. stop being dumb, it annoys me.

    Oh have a heart. In the last few weeks the only free time I have to comment coincides with the only free time I have to drink a beer or three. I’m training for a new job and I have three kids from age 2-11 plus an ornery wife.

    When I get some peace and quiet in the mornings (I will soon) then feel free to hold me to the highest standards.

    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    ;-)
  26. @Bill P

    this comment was kind of dumb. stop being dumb, it annoys me.
     
    Oh have a heart. In the last few weeks the only free time I have to comment coincides with the only free time I have to drink a beer or three. I'm training for a new job and I have three kids from age 2-11 plus an ornery wife.

    When I get some peace and quiet in the mornings (I will soon) then feel free to hold me to the highest standards.

    😉

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