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Asians Are a Model Minority (On Average)
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journal.pmed.0030260.g001

Cite: Murray, Christopher JL, et al. “Eight Americas: investigating mortality disparities across races, counties, and race-counties in the United States.” PLoS Medicine 3.9 (2006): e260.

The above is a map which illustrates life expectancy for white males and females by county in the United States from the paper Eight Americas: Investigating Mortality Disparities across Races, Counties, and Race-Counties in the United States. I’m reproducing it because it shows the wide variation in life expectancy for white Americans. Second, the results show the huge disparities in life expectancy by ethnic group:

When race-county combinations are considered, life expectancy disparities are dramatically larger. For example, Native American males in the cluster of Bennet, Jackson, Mellette, Shannon, Todd, and Washabaugh Counties in South Dakota had a life expectancy of 58 y in 1997–2001, compared to Asian females in Bergen County, New Jersey, with a life expectancy of 91 y, a gap of 33 y.

Life expectancy is important because it can’t be contextualized and reinterpreted with sophistry. Asian Americans tend to live longer than white Americans. How’s that a model for you? (yes, I know, the immigration systems selects for longer lived Asians!)

The whole issue is on my mind because of a post over at the Aerogram, Debunking the Model Minority Myth with Humor: The Rise of the South Asian Comedian. How exactly does the piece illustrate how South Asian comedians are “debunking” the model minority myth? Honestly I have no idea. The piece itself states:

…The stereotypical “American Dream” for South Asians includes children equipped with an above average education. As the model minority, 64 percent of Indian-Americans had a Bachelor’s degree or higher according to the US Census of 2004. In addition, 60 percent of Indian-Americans had management or professional jobs, compared with a national average of 33 percent.

First, what the hell is with the quotes? Shouldn’t the American dream be about equipping children with above average education? The author of the piece herself has a biography which runs like so:

Born and raised in California, Lakshmi is a journalist and educator currently based in Berkeley. Over the past few years, she has worked with newspapers, radio and magazines from Gaborone, Botswana, to Los Angeles. She is a graduate of Pitzer College where she studied global communications and studio arts. She is presently pursuing her master’s at UC Berkeley School of Journalism.

“She” sure seems “educated” to “me” (I have no idea why I put quotations here). Second, she is honest enough to straight up admit that Indian-Americans have social statistics which are perfectly in keeping with the idea that on average they are a model minority.

What’s going on here? The problem here is simple: a particular class of educated Asian Americans schooled in post-colonial critical race theory posits a model of the world where everything is dichotomized into white people with privilege and poor oppressed “people of color.” Another symptom of this tendency to think in a binary is to talk about the “Global North” and “Global South.” No matter the word games which might be offered to obscure the overall thesis, this model removes most agency from “people of color”, and makes white people the movers and shakers of the world’s phenomena (e.g., stuff like facial symmetry is asserted to be Western beauty standards). But, critical race theory inverts the moral valence which one finds among white supremacists and their ilk, with whom they share key presuppositions (e.g., white people are sui generis). Where the model for white supremacists is that white people have a particular virtuous genius, for critical race theorists white people are the “Ice People” who introduce the contagion of bourgeois oppressive patriarchal values. It is in many ways a resurrection of the theory of the Noble Savage, as the idyll of nonwhites was shattered by the all consuming nature of the colonial experience which the white devils imposed upon them.

You can see how then that the Asian American model minority is “problematic.” Asian Americans do better on a host of social statistics than white Americans. But since white privilege is the all determinative variable which explains all social phenomena this outcome is perplexing. The solution from what I can tell is a long campaign of obfuscation, lying, and outright propaganda. Asian American activists schooled in critical race theory simply assert that the model minority concept is a myth, and trust that their sympathetic audiences will ascent to their knowledge of this domain. Mind you, they do bring up examples such as the Hmong to highlight how Asian-Americans are diverse, and not all are Taiwanese or Indian professionals. But the fact is that the Southeast Asian refugee experience is a secondary narrative numerically. The inversion of weights in this case is purely in the service of propaganda, which is persuasive to their innumerate audience. It would be like debunking white privilege by pointing out the reality of the whites of Appalachia, and much of rural America. All of a sudden these race hustling sophists would point out the importance of averages.

Of course theory is information for free. And a false theory can implant false information in the minds of many. Another paper, The White Ceiling Heuristic and the Underestimation of Asian-American Income:

The belief that ethnic majorities dominate ethnic minorities informs research on intergroup processes. This belief can lead to the social heuristic that the ethnic majority sets an upper limit that minority groups cannot surpass, but this possibility has not received much attention. In three studies of perceived income, we examined how this heuristic, which we term the White ceiling heuristic leads people to inaccurately estimate the income of a minority group that surpasses the majority. We found that Asian Americans, whose median income has surpassed White median income for nearly three decades, are still perceived as making less than Whites, with the least accurate estimations being made by people who strongly believe that Whites are privileged. In contrast, income estimates for other minorities were fairly accurate. Thus, perceptions of minorities are shaped both by stereotype content and a heuristic.

Basically those whites who are very conscious of white privilege as an idea underestimate Asian American income. This tells us that the propaganda is working, though that’s not a surprise as most people are stupid and uninformed, and use theory to explain the world.

 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Asian Americans 
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  1. Arthur Sakamoto has done a lot of research on this question. Two years ago he and a few other co-authors published what should be the definitive word on Asian-American’s model-minority status:

    Arthur Sakamoto , Isao Takei & Hyeyoung Woo (2012) “The Myth of the Model Minority Myth”, Sociological Spectrum: Mid-South Sociological Association, 32:4, 309-321.

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  2. “Life expectancy is important because it can’t be contextualized and reinterpreted with sophistry.”

    Surely there is a selection effect to be wary of. If you use age and location at death to calculate life expectancy you will exaggerate the differences between places where healthy rich people go to live out their golden years and those where the poor and ill end up.

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  3. There is a subset of very left wing Asian Americans who have an extreme hatred of White people and they tend to believe that they are more culturally similar to African Americans than they are to White Americans.

    These are the Asian Americans who claim that they get racially profiled by White police officers just as much as Black people do. These are the type of Asian Americans who believe they and Blacks are basically the same race, which is the “People Of Color” race.

    These are the types of Asian Americans who are hardcore Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin supporters.

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    • Replies: @Realist
    "There is a subset of very left wing Asian Americans who have an extreme hatred of White people and they tend to believe that they are more culturally similar to African Americans than they are to White Americans."
    Those are the Asians to the left of center on the IQ graph.
  4. “America 2 consists of northland (Minnesota, the Dakotas, Iowa, Montana, and Nebraska) low-income rural white populations, with income and education below the national average. ” The Lake Wobegon demographic.

    This is the second longest-lived demographic, after Asians, mostly Lutheran and Catholic. Note that this demographic only includes the relatively poor in these areas; well off people in the area have the life expectancies of generic Americans (America 3). America 2 stands in contrast to America 4, Appalachian whites, who are the whites with the lowest life expectancy. Smoking/non-smoking is a major distinguishing factor.

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  5. “If you use age and location at death to calculate life expectancy you will exaggerate the differences between places where healthy rich people go to live out their golden years and those where the poor and ill end up.”

    America 2, just mentioned, is quite the opposite. North Dakota is not a retirement haven.

    “Low-income white rural populations in Minnesota, the Dakotas, Iowa, Montana, and Nebraska (America 2), with a life expectancy of 76.2 and 81.8 y for males and females, respectively, have a substantial advantage over the rest of white America, despite a large income disadvantage.”

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  6. Life expectancy is a measure of IQ. High IQ causes higher life expectancy and vice versa.

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  7. I think I am (at heart) a leftist. I also accept that broad differences exist between different population groups.
    I would like to live in a world in which the academic potential of what are currently disadvantaged minorities is a great as what are currently model minorities. I am in favour of affirmative action at the most basic level- government subsidised embryo selection for the disadvantaged groups. This would raise their average IQ and allow them to compete academically with the gifted.

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  8. The last time that I checked, Black women, in America, had an average life expectancy about two years longer than that of us privileged White males (versus a six-year advantage for all oppressed females over all privileged males). Then again, the last time that I checked, Blacks were barely one-eighth of the resident population of the United States– not the one-fourth to one-third that is shown in much of the mainstream media (especially television commercials!). By the way, is there any chance that the model minority will come up with a plausible explanation for why its members apparently consider you, Razib, and, say, George Takei or Lucy Liu to be in the same “racial” category of “Asians”?

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  9. “…obfuscation, lying, and outright propaganda.”

    It’s a shame that libs have ruined a lot of their own (worthy) causes with behavior like this. There’s plenty of stuff in the world to be legitimately outraged about without lying but people choose the Michael Moore route instead. Why use fallacious debate points when factual ones will work? Not as sensational or attention getting and moreover, they actually believe a lot of them. No doubt that Rachel Maddow believes in her words when she’s condescendingly chastising a white haired white man about the “wage gap.” Many have been fooled by the unfounded “1 in 5″ sexual assault number we always hear. And, unfortunately, it works! We now have legislation that addresses these causes. I guess much of it is symbolic to their cause as well. We are Blessed with Social Justice Meccas like this: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/16/arts/design/the-arcus-center-for-social-justice-leadership-in-kalamazoo.html
    Their purpose? Only clear if you’re an Ally and that’s all that matters:)

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  10. D.K., I agree with you about the absurdity of the continental term “Asian” being called a race of its own even though East Asians and South Asians are generally distinct from each other and the category excludes West Asians like Iranians and Lebanese and even North Asians and Central Asians like Kyrgyzes, Yakuts, Itelmen, Chukchi, and Nganasans who are largely racially Mongoloid/East Asian in their deep ancestry. It also excludes Kalmyks who are an offshoot of the Mongolian people who happen to live in Europe. Seriously, the U.S. Census asks that Kalmyks, Kazakhs, and East Siberians declare themselves “White” even though they are racially mixed to a substantial degree and some of these populations have single-digit Caucasoid ancestry.

    However, Razib is of Bengali Indian descent and has explained he has some East Asian ancestry from that, so it’s technically not inaccurate.

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  11. See also:

    HBD is Life and Death | JayMan’s Blog

    and

    More Maps of the American Nations | JayMan’s Blog

    This paper will be an excellent addition to these.

    And yes, Asians are “problematic” for the popular narrative. But then, it does fall apart when you look closely. ;)

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  12. Surely there is a selection effect to be wary of. If you use age and location at death to calculate life expectancy you will exaggerate the differences between places where healthy rich people go to live out their golden years and those where the poor and ill end up.

    1) that’s partly the point, as asian american activists figure out ways to make the income figures seem less significant.

    2) you’re wrong about thinking this is super determinative, see john’s comment, and google ‘hispanic paradox’

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  13. There is a subset of very left wing Asian Americans who have an extreme hatred of White people and they tend to believe that they are more culturally similar to African Americans than they are to White Americans.

    basically. it’s all a big pose, but professionally self-interested.

    By the way, is there any chance that the model minority will come up with a plausible explanation for why its members apparently consider you, Razib, and, say, George Takei or Lucy Liu to be in the same “racial” category of “Asians”?

    the reasoning is that buddhism connects s asian to east/se asia. but it’s post hoc. the reality is american’s government census categories have a finite number of groups, so constructs like ‘asian american’ and ‘hispanic’ were needed. south asians argued to move into the asian category in 1980 for the purposes of government contracts i think.

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    • Replies: @Oldeguy
    "they tend to believe that they are more culturally similar to African Americans than they are to White Americans"- I can see where this might not produce derision in the Ivory Tower of Academia, but is it promoted elsewhere ?
    , @D. K.
    Well, Islam connects Arabs, Persians, (some) Black Africans, Pakistanis, and Indonesians-- among many others! Yes, (Asian) Indians were considered White-- or, at least, Caucasian-- by the federal government, until they figured out that they could make out even better as an "oppressed" minority, nestled within the "Asian" racial category.
  14. Bill O’Reilly vs. Jon Stewart on “white privilege”

    http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/4u4hqr/bill-o-reilly

    Bill uses the “Asian outlier” example in the debate.

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    • Replies: @Jeff T.
    Debating white privilege is a trap, it's more sensible to point out the anti-white double standard of the term. Just as non-white persons or counties are never expected to forgo tribalism or "racism", and no non-white group is ever called supremacist no matter its views, no non-white group is ever attacked for privilege.

    It seems alleged privilege has two components:

    1) Tangible, as in wealth, education, credit scores, bank loans, incarceration rates, etc.
    2) Demographic, as in the majority

    Countering: Most obviously, why is the issue framed as "white privilege" and not "majority privilege" or "credit score privilege", which are changing conditions? That's anti-whiteism.

    To be more specific:

    1) It's easy to point out a superior living condition of a non-white group, whole or in part, relating to wealth, credit scores, incarceration rates, etc., both in America and internationally. Yet in practice Northeast Asian privilege is a non-starter because that's called racist. That's an obvious anti-white double standard. Declaring black privilege in athleticism and muscularity is also a non-starter.

    2) Every group is a majority somewhere, yet non-white groups are rarely if ever attacked for majority privilege or expected to self-sacrifice as a result. Also, white people are a significant global minority compared to the Chinese alone, yet there is never a campaign against global majority Chinese privilege.

    In practice, with a determined opponent, this has gone a third route for me on occasion, an extension of the second alleged privilege.

    3) I agree with 2), but America is unique because it has no ethnic basis, so the temporary majority ethnicity at the time always has privilege.

    This is argued in bad faith, and goes off topic onto the question of if white America of the 50s had the right to retain its ethnic basis, or even if America today has the right to stay a European civilization. It's worth pointing out, again, that if the debater was sincere, the issue should not be framed as "White Privilege" but rather "Temporary White American Majority Privilege" or just "American Majority Privilege".

    I won't go off topic onto how to debate 3), but to sum, whatever reason they say that white America does not/did not have the right to ethnic preference, there is an equivalent non-white country that has the same present or historical condition, yet is never criticized for ethnic preferences in immigration and social policy. Arab North Africa, Turkey and Japan cover every claim, in my experience. I don't like to go here as its emotionally loaded and I am not hostile to non-whites, but I am bothered by the anti-whiteism of the privilege and similar attacks.

    As a rule, when debating things like racism, colonialism, and the usual attacks, it seems more effective and moral to me to expose the issue as anti-whiteism, which it generally is, rather than as universally applied values, which they are generally not.
  15. @Razib Khan
    There is a subset of very left wing Asian Americans who have an extreme hatred of White people and they tend to believe that they are more culturally similar to African Americans than they are to White Americans.


    basically. it's all a big pose, but professionally self-interested.

    By the way, is there any chance that the model minority will come up with a plausible explanation for why its members apparently consider you, Razib, and, say, George Takei or Lucy Liu to be in the same “racial” category of “Asians”?

    the reasoning is that buddhism connects s asian to east/se asia. but it's post hoc. the reality is american's government census categories have a finite number of groups, so constructs like 'asian american' and 'hispanic' were needed. south asians argued to move into the asian category in 1980 for the purposes of government contracts i think.

    “they tend to believe that they are more culturally similar to African Americans than they are to White Americans”- I can see where this might not produce derision in the Ivory Tower of Academia, but is it promoted elsewhere ?

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  16. The problem is that the mainstream right wing uses the model minority concept to tell blacks “if the Asians can do it, why can’t you?”. Regardless of genetics, statistics, or whatever, it is absolutely not fair to compare a group that has been enslaved for hundreds of years, to voluntary migrants. The recent histories are completely different.

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  17. Razib wrote:

    Mind you, they do bring up examples such as the Hmong to highlight how Asian-Americans are diverse, and not all are Taiwanese or Indian professionals. But the fact is that the Southeast Asian refugee experience is a secondary narrative numerically. The inversion of weights in this case is purely in the service of propaganda, which is persuasive to their innumerate audience. It would be like debunking white privilege by pointing out the reality of the whites of Appalachia, and much of rural America. All of a sudden these race hustling sophists would point out the importance of averages.

    Another way to respond to the “Asians are diverse argument” is this:

    1) Asians on the whole have higher incomes and educational attainment than whites.

    2) If some Asian ethnic groups perform below the Asian average (Hmong, Filipinos), then other ethnic groups must necessarily perform above the already high Asian average. (Chinese, Indians).

    3) The gap between these overachieving groups and whites will be even larger than that between whites and Asians as a whole, making them an even more potent counterexample to white privilege.

    That Asian ethnic groups show diversity in achievement would be a valid argument against a notion of “Asian privilege” that said anyone of Asian ancestry gets an automatic college degree and free bags of money. Of course, no one holds that notion. When people bring up Asian success in this context it is to show that opportunity for success in America is not limited to whites. Diversity among Asians can’t refute that since, as shown above, if some Asian groups are below average then other groups must be even higher than the already high Asian average; making them even more striking examples of non-white success.

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  18. “The problem is that the mainstream right wing uses the model minority concept to tell blacks “if the Asians can do it, why can’t you?”. Regardless of genetics, statistics, or whatever, it is absolutely not fair to compare a group that has been enslaved for hundreds of years, to voluntary migrants. The recent histories are completely different.”

    Well, yes they are completely different, namely that over the past 150 years African-Americans have had more freedom, better living standards, and economic opportunity with far less violence inflicted upon them than Chinese, South Koreans, Taiwanese or Vietnamese.

    Compare when they each got the right to vote (if they have it.)

    Compare how many blacks were lynched to how many Asians died in WW2, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Great Leap Forward.

    Compare life expectancy – in 1960 during Jim Crow black men had a life expectancy of 63.6 years vs 43 years in China, 46 in Vietnam, 53 in South Korea. Income comparisons will show similar results.

    Compare how many mass famines China has experienced over the past 200 years to how many African-Americans have suffered.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines_in_China

    Compare literacy rates: South Korea had 22% literacy in 1945. The earliest literacy stats for China are from 1982, showing 65% literate. Blacks in America have been over 80% since the 1930s, by 1980 they were at 98%.

    If a long history a slavery what defines a people then Poles should be much worse off then American blacks, since their serfdom started in the 12th century. Go compare their PISA results to African-Americans, or for that matter White-Americans.

    If voluntary migration was what mattered, the descendants of the freed slaves who left the US for Liberia should be much better off than those who voluntarily chose to stay. They are not.

    Some liberals have this bizarre belief that African-Americans have suffered worse oppression than any group in history, but the statistics show quite otherwise.

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  19. @Razib Khan
    There is a subset of very left wing Asian Americans who have an extreme hatred of White people and they tend to believe that they are more culturally similar to African Americans than they are to White Americans.


    basically. it's all a big pose, but professionally self-interested.

    By the way, is there any chance that the model minority will come up with a plausible explanation for why its members apparently consider you, Razib, and, say, George Takei or Lucy Liu to be in the same “racial” category of “Asians”?

    the reasoning is that buddhism connects s asian to east/se asia. but it's post hoc. the reality is american's government census categories have a finite number of groups, so constructs like 'asian american' and 'hispanic' were needed. south asians argued to move into the asian category in 1980 for the purposes of government contracts i think.

    Well, Islam connects Arabs, Persians, (some) Black Africans, Pakistanis, and Indonesians– among many others! Yes, (Asian) Indians were considered White– or, at least, Caucasian– by the federal government, until they figured out that they could make out even better as an “oppressed” minority, nestled within the “Asian” racial category.

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  20. Multiculturalism lumps Americans (immigrants or otherwise) who are not WASPS into categories defined by American history, in terms of their historical relationship to the majority and dominant Americans. Thus you get “Asian-American”, because these people by and large werre post-1880 immigrants, not white, usually not Christian, and from one area. Pacific Islanders have already been given their own slot, sometimes. Dividing South Asians from East Asians would clarify things a little, but Pakistanis, Sri Lankans, Jains, Parsis, Brahmans, Dalits, and the various tribal peoples and language groups of are hardly a single people — but the distinctions between them are not at all idiomatic to Americans.

    By contrast, for some purposes we do distinguish Dutch, Belgians, and Luxemburgers, or Czechs and Slovaks, or Ukrainians and Russians, because these distinctions. though smaller, are idiomatic to Americans.

    I know that Razib personally has been ignorantly lumped in this way by friendly multiculturalists and was not happy with his experience.

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  21. […] singular of data is anecdote. Charles Murray reviews The Bell Curve. Model minority trickiness. Slate cuts some […]

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  22. America 2 stands in contrast to America 4, Appalachian whites, who are the whites with the lowest life expectancy.

    -John Emerson

    Actually, look closely and you will see a thin blue line running exactly along the Appalachian range dividing patches of deep red in the piedmont and lowlands. It appears that the true mountain people live longer than their neighbors in the valleys, and they are almost certainly some of the poorest whites in the US (if not the poorest of all).

    How could this be? Visit the area in the summer and it makes sense. Anglo whites aren’t built to tolerate the subtropical climate of the South (or even the humid continental climate of the mid-Atlantic from the looks of it), but the mountains are cool and pleasant with fresh air and clean water.

    It isn’t only unhealthy habits that separate the whites with short lives from those with long ones. North Dakotans, for example, are among the heaviest drinkers in the US, yet they have some of the longest male lifespans in the country. Significantly longer than the dry Southern Baptists, it appears.

    I’m pretty sure environment continues to exert significantly more influence on our health than people think. For example, if I were a dark-skinned person in my neck of the woods (Salish Sea environs), I’d be sure to take vitamin D supplements from September through June.

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    • Replies: @jon
    The article you linked was about beer consumption, not total alcohol consumption. A measure of all alcohol could change the rankings significantly. It's entirely plausible that, for example, North Dakotans don't drink much wine or liqueur.
  23. However, America 4 is specifically Appalachian. Generic Southern whites are in America 3, generic Americans. I suspect that tobacco and poverty are the villains.

    The fact that America 2 is specifically poor people in that area, not everyone, tends to point the finger to the vices of affluence, such as the sedentary lifestyle and overeating.

    Teetotalling areas tend to be hellholes of misery and bigotry.

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  24. However, America 4 is specifically Appalachian.

    -John Emerson

    Not to be nitpicky, but America 4 included “low income whites in Appalachia and the Mississippi Valley,” which probably also includes the Piedmont. True Appalachia is considerably different from the Mississippi Valley, and I’d be willing to be that within that subgroup poor whites in the mountains live longer than those in the valley. The map strongly suggests that to be the case.

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  25. @Robert Ford
    Bill O'Reilly vs. Jon Stewart on "white privilege"
    http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/4u4hqr/bill-o-reilly
    Bill uses the "Asian outlier" example in the debate.

    Debating white privilege is a trap, it’s more sensible to point out the anti-white double standard of the term. Just as non-white persons or counties are never expected to forgo tribalism or “racism”, and no non-white group is ever called supremacist no matter its views, no non-white group is ever attacked for privilege.

    It seems alleged privilege has two components:

    1) Tangible, as in wealth, education, credit scores, bank loans, incarceration rates, etc.
    2) Demographic, as in the majority

    Countering: Most obviously, why is the issue framed as “white privilege” and not “majority privilege” or “credit score privilege”, which are changing conditions? That’s anti-whiteism.

    To be more specific:

    1) It’s easy to point out a superior living condition of a non-white group, whole or in part, relating to wealth, credit scores, incarceration rates, etc., both in America and internationally. Yet in practice Northeast Asian privilege is a non-starter because that’s called racist. That’s an obvious anti-white double standard. Declaring black privilege in athleticism and muscularity is also a non-starter.

    2) Every group is a majority somewhere, yet non-white groups are rarely if ever attacked for majority privilege or expected to self-sacrifice as a result. Also, white people are a significant global minority compared to the Chinese alone, yet there is never a campaign against global majority Chinese privilege.

    In practice, with a determined opponent, this has gone a third route for me on occasion, an extension of the second alleged privilege.

    3) I agree with 2), but America is unique because it has no ethnic basis, so the temporary majority ethnicity at the time always has privilege.

    This is argued in bad faith, and goes off topic onto the question of if white America of the 50s had the right to retain its ethnic basis, or even if America today has the right to stay a European civilization. It’s worth pointing out, again, that if the debater was sincere, the issue should not be framed as “White Privilege” but rather “Temporary White American Majority Privilege” or just “American Majority Privilege”.

    I won’t go off topic onto how to debate 3), but to sum, whatever reason they say that white America does not/did not have the right to ethnic preference, there is an equivalent non-white country that has the same present or historical condition, yet is never criticized for ethnic preferences in immigration and social policy. Arab North Africa, Turkey and Japan cover every claim, in my experience. I don’t like to go here as its emotionally loaded and I am not hostile to non-whites, but I am bothered by the anti-whiteism of the privilege and similar attacks.

    As a rule, when debating things like racism, colonialism, and the usual attacks, it seems more effective and moral to me to expose the issue as anti-whiteism, which it generally is, rather than as universally applied values, which they are generally not.

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  26. What is the comparative life expectancy of South Asian- vs. East Asian-descended populations in the United States?

    I always thought that South Asians had higher education and income levels than East Asians, but had a substantially lower life expectancy. I know quite a few physicians (some South Asian and some East Asian) and many of them talk about how hardy and disease-resistant East Asians are (and how “lightweight” they are to narcotics, meaning they don’t need much) while also joking about the fragile “Indian heart” (apparently it’s not uncommon for otherwise seemingly-healthy South Asians to drop dead suddenly from heart-related illnesses).

    Are they just hospital myths or is there some basis in statistics?

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  27. Bill P. The best definition of America 4 is “Whites in 467 rural counties in Appalachia and the Mississippi Valley with a white per capita income of <$11770." I'm not familiar enouigh with the geography of the area to interpret the few healthy-looking counties in that general area.

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    • Replies: @PD Shaw
    John Emerson, there is a map of the counties in the various Americas at the bottom of the study. (under "Supporting Information" on pages 2 and 3).

    America 4 looks more like rural South counties than anything. It looks like it extends West to parts of Texas and Oklahoma. But it also includes counties on the North side of the Ohio River, including a dozen or so in Illinois, and a county or two in Kansas. OTOH, it doesn't look like it catches a lot of the Piedmont, most of Virginia and the Carolinas are in America 3.

    From the conclusion: "The observed disparities in life expectancy cannot be explained by race, income, or basic health-care access and utilization alone." The use of racial and income-based categories makes that hard to demonstrate.
    , @Reg Cæsar

    I'm not familiar enouigh with the geography of the area [Appalachia] to interpret the few healthy-looking counties in that general area.
     
    The healthy counties are on the east side of the Blue Ridge, in the coastal states. These are artistic and retirement havens, such as Charlottesville and Asheville, and economic oases like exurban Atlanta, where the good health is largely imported.

    It's essentially an extension of the self-selected blue arrow extending southwest from the Berkshires and Long Island Sound. Over the crest in Ohio, West Virginia, Kentucky and Tennessee the stats better reflect the health of the native stock.
  28. “Well, yes they are completely different, namely that over the past 150 years African-Americans have had more freedom, better living standards, and economic opportunity with far less violence inflicted upon them than Chinese, South Koreans, Taiwanese or Vietnamese. ”

    I think the proper comparison should be between African-Americans and Chinese-Americans, Korean-Americans, etc.

    “If voluntary migration was what mattered, the descendants of the freed slaves who left the US for Liberia should be much better off than those who voluntarily chose to stay. They are not.”

    I am not sure of that – remember that Americo-Liberians are (or were, until 1980) the elite of Liberia; I am not saying that they had a better living that american blacks, but, without seeing some objetive indicators, I think that can’t be excluded.

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  29. “As a rule, when debating things like racism, colonialism, and the usual attacks, it seems more effective and moral to me to expose the issue as anti-whiteism, which it generally is, rather than as universally applied values, which they are generally not.”

    You missed Razib’s point.

    Just don’t argue with these people. Simple, really. They’re brainwashed into an ideology.

    Anybody who uses terms such as anti-whiteism, white privilege, islamophobia, islamofascism, cultural marxism, the patriarchy, etc., are simply put morons. What do these neologisms even mean? What the fuck is islamofascism? Do these people even know what fascism even is? People don’t like to look at details so they try to make “big picture” analyses and betray their lack of knowledge of history and social statistics.

    That’s what I got from Razib’s article.

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    • Replies: @Jeff T.
    I got that point. And I don't argue with them, I point out that they're anti-white, which is to say that they don't have the moral high ground and I won't be bullied by their name calling.

    But I agree completely, and I wish we didn't live in this pseudointellectual bubble. In reality, cultural marxist PC nonsense has been so powerful, it basically turned a civilization upside down without a shot fired. I don't think the PC elites are stupid, but rather ruthless and utterly amoral. Jon Stewart is probably neither dumb nor naive.

    "anti-racism" means open borders, Ebola, "hate speech", astronomical black underclass crime and dysfunction, and immigration policies equivalent to racial replacement

    "diversity" means you have no right to defend yourself from said policies, nor move away from said black dysfunction. Multiculturalism in the West has meant every culture but Western. Here's the sad case of Vancouver.
    http://www.unb.ca/saintjohn/arts/_resources/pdf/vancouverfrombritishtochinese.pdf

    "privilege" means state-sponsored racial discrimination against the founding stock of the country. It means my children being demonized by teachers in a school in which they are already an ethnic minority.

    I wish that I could just say "hey guys this is silly, come on now, stop it", but that's what we've been doing for 50 years, and every year the situation grows worse.

    America wasn't lost to essays, it was lost to emotionally loaded attack words – Racist! Supremacist! Diversity! – and it won't be won back with essays either. I get called anti-white slurs all the time, and this is the best way that I know of to fight back. It's pathetic that I have to sink to their level, but if you have a better idea, I'm all ears.
  30. @John Emerson
    Bill P. The best definition of America 4 is "Whites in 467 rural counties in Appalachia and the Mississippi Valley with a white per capita income of <$11770." I'm not familiar enouigh with the geography of the area to interpret the few healthy-looking counties in that general area.

    John Emerson, there is a map of the counties in the various Americas at the bottom of the study. (under “Supporting Information” on pages 2 and 3).

    America 4 looks more like rural South counties than anything. It looks like it extends West to parts of Texas and Oklahoma. But it also includes counties on the North side of the Ohio River, including a dozen or so in Illinois, and a county or two in Kansas. OTOH, it doesn’t look like it catches a lot of the Piedmont, most of Virginia and the Carolinas are in America 3.

    From the conclusion: “The observed disparities in life expectancy cannot be explained by race, income, or basic health-care access and utilization alone.” The use of racial and income-based categories makes that hard to demonstrate.

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  31. The core study seems quite odd in not really justifying why it broke up the U.S. population in those eight categories, rather than in some other way with more of an overriding conceptually unifying basis.

    I can imagine lots of ways to do that, and this study’s chosen division doesn’t obvious fit with any of the leading approaches. In particular, for example, it segregates out under achieving groups from “Middle American” (black and white respectively), without segregating out populations likely to be healthier than the norm.

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  32. As I understand they found their groups by some form of data mining rather than prescribing them in advance an the basis of a previous analysis. The new ideas were dividing the black population 3 ways and singling out white Americas 2 and 4. Divided black, white, native American and Asian might have been done on the bsais of existing categories.

    It did single out two overachieving groups, 1 and 2. From their relgation of the majority of the population (all races including non-reservation Indians) to America 3, we are to conclude that they didn’t find any definable groups within that group which deviated from the group.

    “The observed disparities in life expectancy cannot be explained by race, income, or basic health-care access and utilization alone.”

    The contrast between 2 and 4 is pretty vivid, with no racial difference and little income difference. The contrast between 2 and 3 even more so, since the healthier population is racially identical, poorer, and probably with less access to healthcare.

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  33. Basically those whites who are very conscious of white privilege as an idea underestimate Asian American income.

    I don’t see how the idea of white privilege is mutually exclusive with the good outcomes for Asian Americans. Perhaps racism does have a negative impact on outcomes for Asian Americans, but other factors more than balance them out. That sort of scenario seems pretty plausible to me.

    I don’t think it should be controversial to suggest that a society’s norms will tend to favour whomever the majority in that society is. In that sense, I do think taking a critical look at the effect of being a member of a minority group (whomever the majority may be) is worthwhile.

    I don’t know about everyone else here, but frankly I don’t see “positive” stereotypes as any less evil than negative ones. The stereotype that all people of Asian descent are good at math and should pursue a career in STEM fields may have a positive effect on incomes, but it’s still dehumanizing and treating and fails to judge people as individuals.

    On the central point though, obviously I agree. Like many things, people like to take a good idea and twist it and distort it until it becomes something else.

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  34. On the central point though, obviously I agree. Like many things, people like to take a good idea and twist it and distort it until it becomes something else.

    No, that is just a stereotype.

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  35. @Kamran
    "As a rule, when debating things like racism, colonialism, and the usual attacks, it seems more effective and moral to me to expose the issue as anti-whiteism, which it generally is, rather than as universally applied values, which they are generally not."

    You missed Razib's point.

    Just don't argue with these people. Simple, really. They're brainwashed into an ideology.

    Anybody who uses terms such as anti-whiteism, white privilege, islamophobia, islamofascism, cultural marxism, the patriarchy, etc., are simply put morons. What do these neologisms even mean? What the fuck is islamofascism? Do these people even know what fascism even is? People don't like to look at details so they try to make "big picture" analyses and betray their lack of knowledge of history and social statistics.

    That's what I got from Razib's article.

    I got that point. And I don’t argue with them, I point out that they’re anti-white, which is to say that they don’t have the moral high ground and I won’t be bullied by their name calling.

    But I agree completely, and I wish we didn’t live in this pseudointellectual bubble. In reality, cultural marxist PC nonsense has been so powerful, it basically turned a civilization upside down without a shot fired. I don’t think the PC elites are stupid, but rather ruthless and utterly amoral. Jon Stewart is probably neither dumb nor naive.

    “anti-racism” means open borders, Ebola, “hate speech”, astronomical black underclass crime and dysfunction, and immigration policies equivalent to racial replacement

    “diversity” means you have no right to defend yourself from said policies, nor move away from said black dysfunction. Multiculturalism in the West has meant every culture but Western. Here’s the sad case of Vancouver.

    http://www.unb.ca/saintjohn/arts/_resources/pdf/vancouverfrombritishtochinese.pdf

    “privilege” means state-sponsored racial discrimination against the founding stock of the country. It means my children being demonized by teachers in a school in which they are already an ethnic minority.

    I wish that I could just say “hey guys this is silly, come on now, stop it”, but that’s what we’ve been doing for 50 years, and every year the situation grows worse.

    America wasn’t lost to essays, it was lost to emotionally loaded attack words – Racist! Supremacist! Diversity! – and it won’t be won back with essays either. I get called anti-white slurs all the time, and this is the best way that I know of to fight back. It’s pathetic that I have to sink to their level, but if you have a better idea, I’m all ears.

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  36. The “not white” line has been apparently continued creeping north and west from India and people of Middle Eastern background are apparently fighting to be non-white, too. If they’d just cut to the chase and adopt 19th century nativist thinking and declare everyone south of France and east of Austria not white (applying the one drop Elizabeth Warren rule of ancestry, of course, and they could exclude the Irish just to be sure) and they could declare victory in making whites no longer being the majority in the United States without waiting.

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  37. It’s not just a problem if being uninformed, but systematically misinformed by institutions they are taught to trust.

    Children are being sent to universities, and their curricula is now requiring mandatory courses at the very least in humanities courses that lay thick on the deconstructionism and post-colonialism narratives. Gender studies and African American studies departments have successfully injected their ideas into most courses outside the STEM programs.

    Very few universities resist the left wing propaganda. And since college attendance has been deemed the popular requirement for economic rise, there’s an increasing amount of children flushing into these brain-washing camps.

    The scary part is that as they’re successful in indoctrinating a very large part of the population that will be making important decisions in the future for our society, one can expect that as the national ideology distribution shifts, the character assassinations, progressive blog-style (Salon), will continue to increase and we’ll see how those that don’t adhere to this crap begin to be ostracized in the social and professional spheres.

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  38. From the white perspective, we seemed to be doing pretty good before the mass migration of Asians. Not only was it easier to get in to ‘elite’ or second tier schools, but I’d say that those that got in produced more, more rapid progress than we have seen. I mean, Kitty Hawk to the moon in, what, 66 years? With nary an Asian to be seen (I’m sure there were some, somewhere) and in fact most of the engineers from those ‘white trash’ states.

    I can’t help but think that the laid-back, a ‘B’ or ‘C’ is okay if I can work on my Altair, 1970s and early 1980s in NorCal produced both the PC and the Mountain Bike; Anglos in NorCal working at opposite ends of the technology spectrum, not a hundred miles away from each other (Santa Clara and Marin).

    I’d also note the involvement of South Asians in both the recent financial scandals and the ‘A’ CLU. Seems like they are imitating another ethnic group.

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  39. @Bill P

    America 2 stands in contrast to America 4, Appalachian whites, who are the whites with the lowest life expectancy.

    -John Emerson
     
    Actually, look closely and you will see a thin blue line running exactly along the Appalachian range dividing patches of deep red in the piedmont and lowlands. It appears that the true mountain people live longer than their neighbors in the valleys, and they are almost certainly some of the poorest whites in the US (if not the poorest of all).

    How could this be? Visit the area in the summer and it makes sense. Anglo whites aren't built to tolerate the subtropical climate of the South (or even the humid continental climate of the mid-Atlantic from the looks of it), but the mountains are cool and pleasant with fresh air and clean water.

    It isn't only unhealthy habits that separate the whites with short lives from those with long ones. North Dakotans, for example, are among the heaviest drinkers in the US, yet they have some of the longest male lifespans in the country. Significantly longer than the dry Southern Baptists, it appears.

    I'm pretty sure environment continues to exert significantly more influence on our health than people think. For example, if I were a dark-skinned person in my neck of the woods (Salish Sea environs), I'd be sure to take vitamin D supplements from September through June.

    The article you linked was about beer consumption, not total alcohol consumption. A measure of all alcohol could change the rankings significantly. It’s entirely plausible that, for example, North Dakotans don’t drink much wine or liqueur.

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    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    It’s entirely plausible that, for example, North Dakotans don’t drink much wine or liqueur.
     
    Except on their 21st birthday, when they ask the bartender for everything on his shelf. Occasionally someone dies from this. A big problem in North Dakota.
  40. @Jefferson
    There is a subset of very left wing Asian Americans who have an extreme hatred of White people and they tend to believe that they are more culturally similar to African Americans than they are to White Americans.

    These are the Asian Americans who claim that they get racially profiled by White police officers just as much as Black people do. These are the type of Asian Americans who believe they and Blacks are basically the same race, which is the "People Of Color" race.

    These are the types of Asian Americans who are hardcore Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin supporters.

    “There is a subset of very left wing Asian Americans who have an extreme hatred of White people and they tend to believe that they are more culturally similar to African Americans than they are to White Americans.”
    Those are the Asians to the left of center on the IQ graph.

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  41. Where the model for white supremacists is that white people have a particular virtuous genius, for critical race theorists white people are the “Ice People” who introduce the contagion of bourgeois oppressive patriarchal values…

    …like same-sex marriage! Nothing is whiter than that! Ask any Ugandan.

    Those who actually do believe in the “particular virtuous genius” of whites come in two camps which are polar opposites, and which the progressive can’t, or won’t, recognize: supremacists and separatists.

    Obviously the more morally defensible of these two is the separatist, who at least allows the “inferior” Other control of his own affairs. This explains the prog’s unwillingness to differentiate– in the West, the right is separatist, and the Left [sic] supremacist.

    “Yes, you’re our equal. Now shut up and recycle, and junk that smoke-blowing 1970 eight-cylinder low-rider and take the light rail!”

    Isn’t “critical race theory” itself a white man’s invention?

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  42. @jon
    The article you linked was about beer consumption, not total alcohol consumption. A measure of all alcohol could change the rankings significantly. It's entirely plausible that, for example, North Dakotans don't drink much wine or liqueur.

    It’s entirely plausible that, for example, North Dakotans don’t drink much wine or liqueur.

    Except on their 21st birthday, when they ask the bartender for everything on his shelf. Occasionally someone dies from this. A big problem in North Dakota.

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  43. @John Emerson
    Bill P. The best definition of America 4 is "Whites in 467 rural counties in Appalachia and the Mississippi Valley with a white per capita income of <$11770." I'm not familiar enouigh with the geography of the area to interpret the few healthy-looking counties in that general area.

    I’m not familiar enouigh with the geography of the area [Appalachia] to interpret the few healthy-looking counties in that general area.

    The healthy counties are on the east side of the Blue Ridge, in the coastal states. These are artistic and retirement havens, such as Charlottesville and Asheville, and economic oases like exurban Atlanta, where the good health is largely imported.

    It’s essentially an extension of the self-selected blue arrow extending southwest from the Berkshires and Long Island Sound. Over the crest in Ohio, West Virginia, Kentucky and Tennessee the stats better reflect the health of the native stock.

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  44. I was assuming people would read more than the title.

    From the article:

    “In North Dakota, where the second most alcohol is consumed per adult…”

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  45. Asians are hardly a model minority. They vote completely wrong. A model minority should vote white–Ahem! Excuse me. I meant right.

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  46. Leaving out the more radical left-wing theory of the academy, Asians resent the “model minority” label, whether it’s true or not, because it portrays them as middle-of-the-road, boring doctors and engineers who, while maybe wealthy and healthy, are just soulless drones without any kind of individuality, pluck or creativity, which are values held dearly in America. Americans look up to entrepreneurs, visionaries, adventurers, risk takers, eccentrics, rebels, artists, etc. – and this is kind of a domain populated mostly by whites. Better to be someone with recognition and a smaller income than a no-name software developer who toils away anonymously. It’s up to Asians to pursue less conservative lifestyles and for others to view Asians as having other potentialities. I think that’s what that article about the South Asian comedians was getting at.

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  47. […] on and so forth for most measurable statistics.  A certain breed of progressive even calls them a “model minority”.  They surely also have fewer interactions with the police despite this IAT “bias” […]

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