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American Math Olympiad Team, 2015

For various ideological reasons there is an idea in some parts of the academy that Asian Americans are not a “model minority.” That that “model minority” designation is a myth. The mainstream media often repeats the idea that this is a myth which has been “debunked.”

Actually, it hasn’t been debunked. Rather, through a set of common talking points and empirical shell games Asian American achievement is masked, obfuscated, and explained away. This is not to say that Asian Americans have not, and do not, experience racism. But, it is to assert that the perceptions of Asian American success in particular domains is not an illusion. Your eyes and mind are perceiving real patterns (see here for a typical example of the “Asian American model minority myth”).

From PBS, These groups of Asian-Americans rarely attend college, but California is trying to change that:

Chang, a 22-year-old psychology student at California State University Fresno who grew up in this Central Valley city, chose to study close to home, and she’ll probably remain on campus for her master’s degree. But for someone from an ethnic group that contradicts the Asian-American “model minority” myth, even this is a rare achievement.

As one group of Asians who don’t go to college in large numbers, the Hmong help illustrate the complex changing demographics of students arriving at American universities and colleges: increasingly nonwhite, low-income, and first-generation.

Among the 281,000 Hmong in the United States, 38 percent have less than a high school degree, about 25 percentage points lower than both the Asian-American and U.S. averages, according to the Center for American Progress. Just 14 percent have at least a bachelor’s degree, less than half the national average.

Upending the stereotype that most Asian-American children go to college, the Hmong and other Southeast Asian immigrants including Cambodians, Laotians and Vietnamese have markedly low college-going rates — especially compared with Chinese, Japanese, and Korean Americans, who are actually more likely than other Americans to earn bachelor’s degrees.

This is the “Hmong gambit.” I’ve been hearing about this for 20 years from Asian American activist friends. The Hmong are genuinely marginalized. They were marginalized in Laos as well, where they were a hill tribe outside of the pale of Theravada Buddhist civilization. The fact that they have particular trouble integrating into the United States in comparison to other Asian Americans is not surprising. But the Hmong are not very representative of California Asian Americans.

UC Berkeley provides undergraduate (non-international) student data. And you can find various Asian American ethnic numbers from the Census and other sites.

Berkeley 2015 % California 2010 % Ratio
Chinese 20.5% 3.9% 5.26
Filipino 3.4% 3.9% 0.87
Japanese 2.1% 0.7% 2.82
Korean 5.3% 1.4% 3.94
South Asian 8.2% 1.8% 4.55
Vietnamese 3.6% 1.7% 2.1

One thing you can see immediately is that the reporting is sloppy and uninformed. Vietnamese shouldn’t be bracketed with other Southeast Asians. They are somewhat overrepresented at Berkeley. This is not surprising. Many of the Vietnamese are themselves Hoa, or from the Catholic middle class. The Filipinos are represented at about their proportion in the population. The Chinese, South Asians (mostly Indian), Koreans, and Japanese are all overrepresented.

At this point you might wonder about all the other groups such as Pacific Islanders, Cambodians, and Mongolians (?). But look up the numbers and you’ll see that the six groups above represent 80-90% of Asian Americans in California. These are representative communities, not the Hmong.

Note: One aspect of the “model minority myth” myth is that the 1965 immigration system, which was highly selective for the first post-65 wave of Asians, shaped modern conceptions. More or less this is a lie, as the “model minority” thesis was formulated in the 1960s against the backdrop of black urban unrest, and when “Asian American” mean Chinese and Japanese, who were by and large descendants of very modest people. In the case of the Japanese in particular it is well known that those who left the home islands were often the most socially and economically marginalized.

 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Model minority 
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  1. Several of the 2016 US Mathematics Olympiad team were from Phillips Exeter, which implies that giving your brightest an elite education might help them compete internationally.

    Another blow for SJW mythbusters.

    BTW you might be interested in this comment regarding the very good performance of indigenous Peruvians in the olympiad:

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/hispanic-electoral-tidal-wave-still-hasnt-quite-gone-thru-formality-of-coming-into-existence/#comment-1570996

    • Replies: @Sean
    The Maya had a world lead in certain aspects of mathematics
  2. Asian leftists find success so shameful they go out of their way to appropriate the failures of underachieving groups. Those people are seriously deranged. Luckily, I believe they’re an extremely small minority of people who got sucked into academia’s social justice scene.

    The entire AAPI category is absurdly over-encompassing. Several Asian groups are now pushing for disaggregated statistics, mostly to highlight how much groups like the Hmong suffer. But in doing so, it will also reveal just how well others do. Hopefully that will put an end to the Model Minority Myth Myth.

  3. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Clint Eastwood’s character in Gran Torino:

    “I thought you slopes were good in math.”

    “I thought you Asian girls were supposed to be smart.”

    In the movie Eastwood’s character was talking to Hmong kids. He obviously can’t tell Asians apart or knows about the IQ differences as you go up the epicanthic totem pole, from Hmong & Cambodian up to Korean & Japanese.

    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    stupid. the genetics is clear, the hmong are recent migrants from central china. they don't have much austric admixture at all, unlike lowland pops.
  4. @Anonymous
    Clint Eastwood's character in Gran Torino:

    "I thought you slopes were good in math."
    ...

    "I thought you Asian girls were supposed to be smart."
     

    In the movie Eastwood's character was talking to Hmong kids. He obviously can't tell Asians apart or knows about the IQ differences as you go up the epicanthic totem pole, from Hmong & Cambodian up to Korean & Japanese.

    stupid. the genetics is clear, the hmong are recent migrants from central china. they don’t have much austric admixture at all, unlike lowland pops.

  5. These articles are always like, “OMG, did you know that the entire continent of Asia is not one big homogenous mass populated solely with math superstars? Some Asians are different from other Asians!” Like yes, thank you for that astute observation. I really had thought that 3+ billion people were all identical.

    Maybe this is news if you’re talking to your grandma who lives in a rural area and, “Once met that nice oriental doctor from Milwaukee,” but I’m pretty sure that most people understand that not 100% of Asians are geniuses. Certainly most PBS listeners.

    But then, perhaps part of being modest, keeping your head down, working, hard, and doing well is modestly denying that you’re really doing all that well.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    These articles are always like, “OMG, did you know that the entire continent of Asia is not one big homogenous mass populated solely with math superstars? Some Asians are different from other Asians!” Like yes, thank you for that astute observation. I really had thought that 3+ billion people were all identical.
     
    https://youtu.be/d_CaZ4EAexQ
  6. Actually, it hasn’t been debunked. Rather, through a set of common talking points and empirical shell games Asian American achievement is masked, obfuscated, and explained away. This is not to say that Asian Americans have not, and do not, experience racism.

    For what it is worth, I think what a lot of people mean when the state that the Model Minority myth has been debunked is that Asian Americans experience racism.

    Of course, the point that “Asian American” is simply a hugely broad areal identifier that has no real ethnic or racial meaning when actually used to include all Americans of Asian decent is clearly true.

    Each country has its own quirks of classification. For example, in the U.K. the phrase black and minority ethnic group (BME) “refers to non-White ethnic groups and generally, though not exclusively, to people of Indian or Pakistani origin.” per Lever, “Democracy, Epistemology, and the Problem of All-White Juries” (November 19, 2015). http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2718452

    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    For what it is worth, I think what a lot of people mean when the state that the Model Minority myth has been debunked is that Asian Americans experience racism.



    sort of. but the sophisticated argument almost always goes to facts like....

    1) southeast asian refugees
    2) asian americans make less $ per year of education
    3) asian american higher workforce participation results in higher household income than should be....
    4) cost of living higher in CA, mitigating higher income

    etc. etc.

    basically, it's a way to just diminish the 'model minority' aggregate statistics. some of these are valid, but some of them are not. a lot of the 'model minority' myth literature also cites the same studies over and over, because they fit the narrative.
  7. @ohwilleke

    Actually, it hasn’t been debunked. Rather, through a set of common talking points and empirical shell games Asian American achievement is masked, obfuscated, and explained away. This is not to say that Asian Americans have not, and do not, experience racism.
     
    For what it is worth, I think what a lot of people mean when the state that the Model Minority myth has been debunked is that Asian Americans experience racism.

    Of course, the point that "Asian American" is simply a hugely broad areal identifier that has no real ethnic or racial meaning when actually used to include all Americans of Asian decent is clearly true.

    Each country has its own quirks of classification. For example, in the U.K. the phrase black and minority ethnic group (BME) "refers to non-White ethnic groups and generally, though not exclusively, to people of Indian or Pakistani origin." per Lever, "Democracy, Epistemology, and the Problem of All-White Juries" (November 19, 2015). http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2718452

    For what it is worth, I think what a lot of people mean when the state that the Model Minority myth has been debunked is that Asian Americans experience racism.

    sort of. but the sophisticated argument almost always goes to facts like….

    1) southeast asian refugees
    2) asian americans make less $ per year of education
    3) asian american higher workforce participation results in higher household income than should be….
    4) cost of living higher in CA, mitigating higher income

    etc. etc.

    basically, it’s a way to just diminish the ‘model minority’ aggregate statistics. some of these are valid, but some of them are not. a lot of the ‘model minority’ myth literature also cites the same studies over and over, because they fit the narrative.

  8. basically, it’s a way to just diminish the ‘model minority’ aggregate statistics

    I suspect it’s going to be used for buttressing current policy against complaints about Asian quotas. Look at who the professor quoted on the necessity for these statistics is; it’s someone who Ron Unz’s described as his main opponent on whether there are any Asian quotas operating.

  9. Tangentially relevant:

    http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/asian-american-voters-are-diverse-but-unified-against-donald-trump/?ex_cid=2016-forecast

    “The Democratic edge over Republicans has increased by 11 percentage points since 2012, according to the NAAS, which was released last week. The 2016 survey also found that 59 percent of respondents favor Hillary Clinton in this year’s presidential election while only 16 percent prefer Donald Trump — 26 percent are either undecided or favor a third-party candidate.1

    The NAAS is significant because good data on the political preferences of Asian-Americans is hard to come by. Since Asian-Americans make up only about 4 percent of the electorate, most conventional political polls simply don’t reach enough of them to make statistically sound conclusions about their political leanings. The NAAS, however, sampled 2,238 Asian-Americans and 305 Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islanders.2

    Even beyond sample-size issues, polling Asian-Americans can be difficult. Asian-Americans have one of the highest rates of limited English proficiency, and about 3 in 4 are foreign-born. For these reasons, 45 percent of the interviews in the NAAS were conducted in one of nine languages other than English (Cantonese, Mandarin, Korean, Vietnamese, Tagalog, Japanese, Hindi, Hmong, Cambodian).”

    The very high rates at which Asian-Americans are foreign born and even higher rates at which they are foreign born or have foreign born parents, suggests that recent immigration history is quite relevant.

  10. The only consistent trait that I have noticed across all Asian groups is their conformity to whatever they see as the dominant narrative or power group. But they retain their ethnicity, and will even hold conversations in their native languages in front of english speakers, which would normally be considered rude….So one would expect them to favor the Democrats and that part of the liberal Narrative that doesn’t harm them, and to block vote for their own. And they do all three, in my experience.

    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    stupid. intermarriage rates quite high for 1.5 & 2nd gen.
    , @Twinkie

    The only consistent trait that I have noticed across all Asian groups is their conformity to whatever they see as the dominant narrative or power group.
     
    That's very interesting, because the only consistent trait that I have noticed across all white groups is their non-conformity, rugged individualism, and resistance to the dominant narrative or power group... even in Scandinavia!*

    *Yes, I am being sarcastic. Scandinavians are famously egalitarian and conformist.

    But they retain their ethnicity, and will even hold conversations in their native languages in front of english speakers, which would normally be considered rude….
     
    Progeny of Asian immigrants in the U.S. are marked by a VERY HIGH degree of English monolingualism and intermarriage. They lose the culture of their forebears very rapidly, though of course the degrees of assimilation vary wildly among different sub-groups.

    Also since when is speaking another language between two private parties in front of English speakers "considered rude" unless the said English speakers were part of the conversation? And I write that as a rabid English Firster.

    So one would expect them to favor the Democrats and that part of the liberal Narrative that doesn’t harm them, and to block vote for their own.
     
    Asian political allegiance in the U.S. is highly variable, divided, and shallow. But keep pushing that "non-whites always vote Democrat" narrative since that seems to be the preferred self-fulfilling prophecy of the white nationalist crowd.
    , @Sean

    http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/publications/observer/2013/december-13/mapping-mindsets.htmlRecently, we tested approximately 400 undergraduates at an elite American university. About half of them were of European descent, while the remaining half were native Asians, .... among non-carriers of these high dopamine gene variants, the cultural difference was absent. It appears, then, that the high dopamine gene variant carriers play some kind of special role in sustaining the values and beliefs of their culture.
     
    Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are conformist to the culture that they were brought up in. But be they of Chinese or European origin, the US born and assimilated people arguing against the idea that non cultural reasons could explain why East Asians exceed Europeans are acting in conformity with US culture. However, the variability in acting in conformity with culture apparently stems from certain gene variants.
    , @Bill M
    The 2nd generation Asians I've known generally haven't been fluent enough in their native languages to be comfortable speaking them much. They seem to be able to understand what their parents say in their native languages, but often not able to speak them.

    Presumably by "retain their ethnicity" you mean something like self-segregation, and in that respect I don't know that they do any more than whites do.

    I don't think elaborate explanations for party affiliation based on pop evo-psych reasons are necessary. The Democratic Party has aggressively cultivated and depended upon immigrants as a constituency for more than a century. Republican Party politics has little cultural relevance both in immigrant areas and in the parts of the mainstream American landscape that are most immediately accessible to immigrants - pop culture, major metro areas, higher education, commerce, the corporate world, etc. The Republicans by contrast have cultivated and depended upon constituencies in American life that are the most remote from immigrants, such as rural America. Politics is zero-sum, and there is a degree of mutual exclusivity in making appeals to various constituencies. Simply being perceived as making an appeal to a different constituency can be regarded as pandering and compromising to another.
  11. Asians are a model minority based on education, crime stats, out of wedlock births, etc. However, the term shouldn’t be used because it can be alienating and most people want to be judged for their individual achievements.

    The link above tries to disprove the model minority “myth” stating that “most Southeast Asian Americans including Hmong, Cambodians, and Laotians never finished high school-at times, rates comparable if not lower than other racial minority groups (U.S. Census Bureau, 2004).” Well, most Asian Americans are foreign born and the census includes people who were never educated in the US, like grandma and uncle.

    If you look at 16-24 year olds, you get a different picture. Data from 2007 shows that the high school dropout rate for US born Vietnamese and Other Asians was lower than that for US-born whites. Foreign born Vietnamese have a lower dropout rate than both US and foreign born whites. Foreign born Other Asians have a lower dropout rate than US born blacks and Hispanics.

    In the Hmong-heavy Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul, MN,Asians (read: Hmong) across all grades score higher on state reading and math exams than blacks, Hispanics, Native Americans, and students in poverty.

    There are only 32,000 Hmongs in the Fresno area, approximate population of a million. Yet, Hmongs are 6% of the student body at Fresno State and by far the largest Asian group. This despite the fact that only 2% of Fresno public high school students are college ready.

    • Replies: @The Z Blog

    Asians are a model minority based on education, crime stats, out of wedlock births, etc.
     
    Exactly. Asians in American have a low frequency of anti-social behavior. No one cares if the neighbor's kid becomes a plumber, rather than a quant. They do care if the neighbor's kid becomes a smack dealer.

    However, the term shouldn’t be used because it can be alienating and most people want to be judged for their individual achievements.
     
    Most people want a lot of stupid things they can't have. Spare the rod, spoil the child.
  12. I’m wondering out loud, feel free to critique – Could we assess the relative amount of societal bias by comparing the sex ratio among successful members of a group, against the same sex ratio in Whites?

    It seems to me like young East Asian women are very prominent in positions of power, but not quite as many young East Asian men are. The same goes for African Americans (although that may partially be explained by Af Am men being disproportionately violent and landing up in prison).

    If East Asian and Af Am women are outperforming their men in America by higher margins than White women are outperforming White men, that may be indicative of some bias.

    Societal bias at the deepest level is simply a sublimated form of territorialism. The men of one group discriminating against the men of another group. It’s quite rare to see men of a group calling for discrimination against foreign females.

  13. It’s interesting to me because in Britain at the moment we’ve got a bit of “All migrants are model compared to the majority” idea in education at the moment – https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/14/london-schools-immigration-children-education : “It can be seen as a story of aspiration and ambition. There is nothing inherently different about the ability of pupils from different ethnic backgrounds, but the children of immigrants typically have high aspirations and ambitions, and might place greater hopes in the education system.”

    (Essentially, the White population is probably a bit more sorted into ability groups congruent with the geography of deprivation, and London schools seem better http://blogs.r.ftdata.co.uk/ftdata/files/2012/08/ethnic11.jpg, http://blogs.r.ftdata.co.uk/ftdata/files/2012/08/ethnic21.jpg, and there might be a bit of an advantage for migrants net of that…).

    So no one is really complaining about any kind of model minority thing. And the whole thing is pretty openly triumphalist.

    Whereas in the US you’ve got a different narrative, because of the longstanding Black American population, who aren’t particularly focused on either money from education or that intellectually engaged in education, so there’s some element of like “Curb your enthusiasm on migrant minorities, because otherwise it would look bad”.

    • Agree: gruff
  14. @pyrrhus
    The only consistent trait that I have noticed across all Asian groups is their conformity to whatever they see as the dominant narrative or power group. But they retain their ethnicity, and will even hold conversations in their native languages in front of english speakers, which would normally be considered rude....So one would expect them to favor the Democrats and that part of the liberal Narrative that doesn't harm them, and to block vote for their own. And they do all three, in my experience.

    stupid. intermarriage rates quite high for 1.5 & 2nd gen.

    • Disagree: Dan Hayes
  15. If people just spoke concretely, seems to me that none of this discussion would be necessary. Imagine we spoke like this:

    Person A: Asians are the model minority because Asian American groups tend to do better than other minorities in workforce and education.
    Person B: For the most part, yes, but some Asian American groups don’t do very well, like the Hmong.
    Person A: Good point. Perhaps it’s better to say Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are model minorities. Although, they encompasses most (East) Asians in the US (no one calls Indians Asians – we call them Indians), so in a loose sense the original statement is reasonable.
    Person B: Fair enough. What else shall we talk about?

    See how easy this is? I guess I just don’t understand what’s left to talk about – apart from the actual empirical details, like the qualifiers Razib mentioned (less $/education, etc.).

  16. I think this hysteria over using Asians as a model minority comes from the same emotional place as the taboo on observing gender differences in behavior and capacity. People don’t understand the concept of looking at the population level, and it creates a wave of people who look at a population and presume about individuals, and said individuals who could be potentially affected by these presumptions screech wildly about said studies promoting these presumptions in a manner that limits their prospects as individuals.

    Left-wing politics also get nervous when one brings up why a particular racial and gender group causes riots that ravage local businesses and end in casualties, yet women, gay men, Asians, and Jews for example don’t tear up cities whenever some slight is perceived.

    When Lawrence King was shot to death over asking his classmate to be his Valentine, and the jury made up of straight middle aged parents revealed bias to sentence premeditated murder so far as to even campaign in the accused’s favor, there were no riots by gay activists when premeditated murder by the school bully in plain view of several eyewitness had to reach a plea bargain of 2nd degree murder because the jury refused to sentence 1st degree out of sympathy for the straight shooter.

    Where are the riots when abortion clinics get bombed? Even the most recalcitrant of college sex assault feminist activists don’t end up in wanton aggression or collateral damage to bystanders. Culture does inform behavior, they just only use culture when it suits them.

    Would these people also call it a myth of achievement when we look at the racial breakdown of the NBA, NFL, MLB relative to their proportion of the population? If there is nothing wrong with disparate athletic achievement, why would it be so scandalous to include academics as another form of achievement?

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    women
     
    https://youtu.be/w_vgu4ewxVc

    gay men
     
    They sure did threaten to kidnap children of those rallying for the defense of marriage, something I witnessed.

    And presumably all those bomb threats the Mormons received for their support of Prop 8 in California were from homosexuals.

    But I acknowledge that these were intimidations only and not actual acts of violence.

    Asians
     
    https://youtu.be/JIZd1a3va18

    Jews
     
    https://youtu.be/cGY5hxmFc2Y

    All human beings are capable of mob violence. But I get your point.
    , @iffen
    Left-wing politics also get nervous

    You are on to something here. The existence of a model minority leads to questions and thoughts about why it is a model and why other minorities are not considered model.

    For that same reason we don't see black-on-black crime being hit on that hard. It brings up questions about black-on-white crime and the question why should black-on-black crime be considered worse.
  17. @EvolutionistX
    These articles are always like, "OMG, did you know that the entire continent of Asia is not one big homogenous mass populated solely with math superstars? Some Asians are different from other Asians!" Like yes, thank you for that astute observation. I really had thought that 3+ billion people were all identical.

    Maybe this is news if you're talking to your grandma who lives in a rural area and, "Once met that nice oriental doctor from Milwaukee," but I'm pretty sure that most people understand that not 100% of Asians are geniuses. Certainly most PBS listeners.

    But then, perhaps part of being modest, keeping your head down, working, hard, and doing well is modestly denying that you're really doing all that well.

    These articles are always like, “OMG, did you know that the entire continent of Asia is not one big homogenous mass populated solely with math superstars? Some Asians are different from other Asians!” Like yes, thank you for that astute observation. I really had thought that 3+ billion people were all identical.

    https://youtu.be/d_CaZ4EAexQ

  18. @pyrrhus
    The only consistent trait that I have noticed across all Asian groups is their conformity to whatever they see as the dominant narrative or power group. But they retain their ethnicity, and will even hold conversations in their native languages in front of english speakers, which would normally be considered rude....So one would expect them to favor the Democrats and that part of the liberal Narrative that doesn't harm them, and to block vote for their own. And they do all three, in my experience.

    The only consistent trait that I have noticed across all Asian groups is their conformity to whatever they see as the dominant narrative or power group.

    That’s very interesting, because the only consistent trait that I have noticed across all white groups is their non-conformity, rugged individualism, and resistance to the dominant narrative or power group… even in Scandinavia!*

    *Yes, I am being sarcastic. Scandinavians are famously egalitarian and conformist.

    But they retain their ethnicity, and will even hold conversations in their native languages in front of english speakers, which would normally be considered rude….

    Progeny of Asian immigrants in the U.S. are marked by a VERY HIGH degree of English monolingualism and intermarriage. They lose the culture of their forebears very rapidly, though of course the degrees of assimilation vary wildly among different sub-groups.

    Also since when is speaking another language between two private parties in front of English speakers “considered rude” unless the said English speakers were part of the conversation? And I write that as a rabid English Firster.

    So one would expect them to favor the Democrats and that part of the liberal Narrative that doesn’t harm them, and to block vote for their own.

    Asian political allegiance in the U.S. is highly variable, divided, and shallow. But keep pushing that “non-whites always vote Democrat” narrative since that seems to be the preferred self-fulfilling prophecy of the white nationalist crowd.

    • Replies: @Hacienda
    How about the lay down about Asians looking all alike. The Asian kids fall into
    types but the types are morphologically very different- square, triangle, circle, oval, hexagonal heads. Skin tones are varied from ivory to dark wood.

    The kid on the right front row is a classic. Asian silverback.
    , @res

    Also since when is speaking another language between two private parties in front of English speakers “considered rude” unless the said English speakers were part of the conversation? And I write that as a rabid English Firster.
     
    I would say if they are speaking unfavorably about the English speakers that would qualify as rude. (depending on the circumstances perhaps justifiable, but rude nonetheless) I enjoy the genre of stories involving unexpected comprehension of foreign languages. ; )

    keep pushing that “non-whites always vote Democrat” narrative since that seems to be the preferred self-fulfilling prophecy of the white nationalist crowd.
     
    Given that the Democrats push that narrative as well it seems an understandable mistake. Still worth calling it out as wrong as you do.
    , @the cruncher
    > since when is speaking another language between two private parties in front of English speakers “considered rude”

    It is. Of course not just /English/ speakers, but speaking in code, whispering, communicating in any fashion where people in your company can't understand you is considered rude. It's not a strong rudeness like openly farting or something but it's rude. Now you know.
  19. @Lucrece
    I think this hysteria over using Asians as a model minority comes from the same emotional place as the taboo on observing gender differences in behavior and capacity. People don't understand the concept of looking at the population level, and it creates a wave of people who look at a population and presume about individuals, and said individuals who could be potentially affected by these presumptions screech wildly about said studies promoting these presumptions in a manner that limits their prospects as individuals.

    Left-wing politics also get nervous when one brings up why a particular racial and gender group causes riots that ravage local businesses and end in casualties, yet women, gay men, Asians, and Jews for example don't tear up cities whenever some slight is perceived.

    When Lawrence King was shot to death over asking his classmate to be his Valentine, and the jury made up of straight middle aged parents revealed bias to sentence premeditated murder so far as to even campaign in the accused's favor, there were no riots by gay activists when premeditated murder by the school bully in plain view of several eyewitness had to reach a plea bargain of 2nd degree murder because the jury refused to sentence 1st degree out of sympathy for the straight shooter.

    Where are the riots when abortion clinics get bombed? Even the most recalcitrant of college sex assault feminist activists don't end up in wanton aggression or collateral damage to bystanders. Culture does inform behavior, they just only use culture when it suits them.

    Would these people also call it a myth of achievement when we look at the racial breakdown of the NBA, NFL, MLB relative to their proportion of the population? If there is nothing wrong with disparate athletic achievement, why would it be so scandalous to include academics as another form of achievement?

    women

    https://youtu.be/w_vgu4ewxVc

    gay men

    They sure did threaten to kidnap children of those rallying for the defense of marriage, something I witnessed.

    And presumably all those bomb threats the Mormons received for their support of Prop 8 in California were from homosexuals.

    But I acknowledge that these were intimidations only and not actual acts of violence.

    Asians

    https://youtu.be/JIZd1a3va18

    Jews

    https://youtu.be/cGY5hxmFc2Y

    All human beings are capable of mob violence. But I get your point.

  20. American Math Olympiad Team, 2015

    By the way, the real crime in that photograph isn’t about Asians. It’s that there are only two women! And we all know that the visuo-spatial/quantitative IQ distribution of women is identical* to that of men, and so there should be as many women on the team as men.

    *You have to imagine me saying that word like this:

    • Replies: @John Massey
    That photo confused me, because they are all wearing medals.

    But when I checked the IMO results for 2015, the USA team (which won it that year, and in 2016) had only six competing members, all male, who all scored gold medals. I counted them as two South Asians (I'm talking origins here, you understand - and that's assuming that I'm guessing right and Kural is a Tamil name), one Mainland Chinese, one Hong Kong Chinese, and a couple of white guys (Ashkenazim? *shrug* at least one, maybe, from the name). So it looks like the two female team members didn't actually compete in the international competition - probably scored their medals in the national selection, but didn't make the cut for the international competition. I dunno.

    It's a weird competition - doesn't include calculus, but more obscure branches of mathematics. Terence Tao tried it three times, and won a bronze, silver and finally a gold medal. Mind you, he was only 13 when he won the gold medal, but then he was passing university level mathematics courses when he was 9. It seemed like he needed to learn with each attempt which branches of mathematics to familiarise himself with before he got gold. There was some European female who competed three times and won three gold medals. Maybe Terence just wasn't nerdish enough - or not yet old enough to develop his now encyclopædic knowledge of mathematics.

    The highest scoring female in the 2016 IMO was Qi Qi from the Canadian team, who scored a silver medal. But then, Canada came 12th out of (I counted) 109 countries, so not too shabby. The Hong Kong girl got a bronze. But eyeballing all of the teams., females are really drastically underrepresented in the international competition, although a few seem to be able to kick some arse in their national selection competitions.
  21. @Twinkie

    American Math Olympiad Team, 2015
     
    By the way, the real crime in that photograph isn't about Asians. It's that there are only two women! And we all know that the visuo-spatial/quantitative IQ distribution of women is identical* to that of men, and so there should be as many women on the team as men.

    *You have to imagine me saying that word like this: https://youtu.be/i2nuPVTU4Z4

    That photo confused me, because they are all wearing medals.

    But when I checked the IMO results for 2015, the USA team (which won it that year, and in 2016) had only six competing members, all male, who all scored gold medals. I counted them as two South Asians (I’m talking origins here, you understand – and that’s assuming that I’m guessing right and Kural is a Tamil name), one Mainland Chinese, one Hong Kong Chinese, and a couple of white guys (Ashkenazim? *shrug* at least one, maybe, from the name). So it looks like the two female team members didn’t actually compete in the international competition – probably scored their medals in the national selection, but didn’t make the cut for the international competition. I dunno.

    It’s a weird competition – doesn’t include calculus, but more obscure branches of mathematics. Terence Tao tried it three times, and won a bronze, silver and finally a gold medal. Mind you, he was only 13 when he won the gold medal, but then he was passing university level mathematics courses when he was 9. It seemed like he needed to learn with each attempt which branches of mathematics to familiarise himself with before he got gold. There was some European female who competed three times and won three gold medals. Maybe Terence just wasn’t nerdish enough – or not yet old enough to develop his now encyclopædic knowledge of mathematics.

    The highest scoring female in the 2016 IMO was Qi Qi from the Canadian team, who scored a silver medal. But then, Canada came 12th out of (I counted) 109 countries, so not too shabby. The Hong Kong girl got a bronze. But eyeballing all of the teams., females are really drastically underrepresented in the international competition, although a few seem to be able to kick some arse in their national selection competitions.

    • Replies: @Triumph104
    The above photo is the national team, the USAMO winners. Since the competition is open to anyone attending a US high school, three of the guys in the photo are foreigners. All three attend boarding school. In the first row, starting from the left, the first guy is from Thailand (Kritkorn Karntikoon), and the second and fourth guys competed for Canada (Kevin Sun and Zhuo Qun "Alex" Song). The Canadians went on to win gold medals at the 2015 IMO. Although the Thai guy had won IMO silvers Thailand for in 2013 and 2014, he did not compete at the 2015 IMO for some reason.

    At the 2015 IMO, Zhuo Qun "Alex" Song of Canada received special recognition for being the only person to ever win five IMO golds. He also won a bronze his first year. He also ended his IMO career with a perfect score. Lisa Sauermann of Germany won four IMO golds and a silver. She had a perfect score in her last competition. She went to the University of Bonn and is now studying for her PhD at Stanford. LINK

    The 2015 US international team consisted of three whites (Ryan Alweiss, Michael Kural, and David Stoner), one East Asian (Allen Liu), one Indian (Shyam Narayanan), and one mixed Indian-Chinese (Yang Liu (Patil)). LINK

    If you search by year on the IMO site, you can sort countries by number of females. Since you mentioned 2016, Laos had four females, Boznia and Herzegovina and Ireland had three, and eleven countries had two, although Egypt, Madagascar, and Trinidad did not send full teams. Trinidad's team was all South Asian, although one of the females may be mixed with white. LINK LINK
  22. @Twinkie

    The only consistent trait that I have noticed across all Asian groups is their conformity to whatever they see as the dominant narrative or power group.
     
    That's very interesting, because the only consistent trait that I have noticed across all white groups is their non-conformity, rugged individualism, and resistance to the dominant narrative or power group... even in Scandinavia!*

    *Yes, I am being sarcastic. Scandinavians are famously egalitarian and conformist.

    But they retain their ethnicity, and will even hold conversations in their native languages in front of english speakers, which would normally be considered rude….
     
    Progeny of Asian immigrants in the U.S. are marked by a VERY HIGH degree of English monolingualism and intermarriage. They lose the culture of their forebears very rapidly, though of course the degrees of assimilation vary wildly among different sub-groups.

    Also since when is speaking another language between two private parties in front of English speakers "considered rude" unless the said English speakers were part of the conversation? And I write that as a rabid English Firster.

    So one would expect them to favor the Democrats and that part of the liberal Narrative that doesn’t harm them, and to block vote for their own.
     
    Asian political allegiance in the U.S. is highly variable, divided, and shallow. But keep pushing that "non-whites always vote Democrat" narrative since that seems to be the preferred self-fulfilling prophecy of the white nationalist crowd.

    How about the lay down about Asians looking all alike. The Asian kids fall into
    types but the types are morphologically very different- square, triangle, circle, oval, hexagonal heads. Skin tones are varied from ivory to dark wood.

    The kid on the right front row is a classic. Asian silverback.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    How about the lay down about Asians looking all alike.
     
    The auburn tinge in my facial hair always sends some folks into a tizzy. They all exclaim, "You have to be part-white or something." Nope. So sorry. My family's been in East Asia for a millenium plus. And that's only recorded history.
  23. @jimmyriddle
    Several of the 2016 US Mathematics Olympiad team were from Phillips Exeter, which implies that giving your brightest an elite education might help them compete internationally.

    Another blow for SJW mythbusters.

    BTW you might be interested in this comment regarding the very good performance of indigenous Peruvians in the olympiad:

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/hispanic-electoral-tidal-wave-still-hasnt-quite-gone-thru-formality-of-coming-into-existence/#comment-1570996

    The Maya had a world lead in certain aspects of mathematics

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Yeah but the Mayans aren't the ones winning medals for Mexico. The Mexican teams are mostly white with a few mestizos.
    , @Jim
    Your statement is complete, utter and total nonsense.
  24. @pyrrhus
    The only consistent trait that I have noticed across all Asian groups is their conformity to whatever they see as the dominant narrative or power group. But they retain their ethnicity, and will even hold conversations in their native languages in front of english speakers, which would normally be considered rude....So one would expect them to favor the Democrats and that part of the liberal Narrative that doesn't harm them, and to block vote for their own. And they do all three, in my experience.

    http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/publications/observer/2013/december-13/mapping-mindsets.htmlRecently, we tested approximately 400 undergraduates at an elite American university. About half of them were of European descent, while the remaining half were native Asians, …. among non-carriers of these high dopamine gene variants, the cultural difference was absent. It appears, then, that the high dopamine gene variant carriers play some kind of special role in sustaining the values and beliefs of their culture.

    Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are conformist to the culture that they were brought up in. But be they of Chinese or European origin, the US born and assimilated people arguing against the idea that non cultural reasons could explain why East Asians exceed Europeans are acting in conformity with US culture. However, the variability in acting in conformity with culture apparently stems from certain gene variants.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    What are you trying to say?

    This sounds like something a 5 year-old with access to an adult dictionary wrote.
  25. @Twinkie

    The only consistent trait that I have noticed across all Asian groups is their conformity to whatever they see as the dominant narrative or power group.
     
    That's very interesting, because the only consistent trait that I have noticed across all white groups is their non-conformity, rugged individualism, and resistance to the dominant narrative or power group... even in Scandinavia!*

    *Yes, I am being sarcastic. Scandinavians are famously egalitarian and conformist.

    But they retain their ethnicity, and will even hold conversations in their native languages in front of english speakers, which would normally be considered rude….
     
    Progeny of Asian immigrants in the U.S. are marked by a VERY HIGH degree of English monolingualism and intermarriage. They lose the culture of their forebears very rapidly, though of course the degrees of assimilation vary wildly among different sub-groups.

    Also since when is speaking another language between two private parties in front of English speakers "considered rude" unless the said English speakers were part of the conversation? And I write that as a rabid English Firster.

    So one would expect them to favor the Democrats and that part of the liberal Narrative that doesn’t harm them, and to block vote for their own.
     
    Asian political allegiance in the U.S. is highly variable, divided, and shallow. But keep pushing that "non-whites always vote Democrat" narrative since that seems to be the preferred self-fulfilling prophecy of the white nationalist crowd.

    Also since when is speaking another language between two private parties in front of English speakers “considered rude” unless the said English speakers were part of the conversation? And I write that as a rabid English Firster.

    I would say if they are speaking unfavorably about the English speakers that would qualify as rude. (depending on the circumstances perhaps justifiable, but rude nonetheless) I enjoy the genre of stories involving unexpected comprehension of foreign languages. ; )

    keep pushing that “non-whites always vote Democrat” narrative since that seems to be the preferred self-fulfilling prophecy of the white nationalist crowd.

    Given that the Democrats push that narrative as well it seems an understandable mistake. Still worth calling it out as wrong as you do.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    if they are speaking unfavorably
     
    That's impolite in any language. That's not the issue here.

    There appear to be some people who are simply irritated to hear a foreign tongue in their vicinity and find it "rude." I think they are making up things about which to be upset. Either that or they have problems with the speakers of the said foreign language, not the language itself.

    I might have mentioned in another thread that I have a close friend who is an Afrikaner emigre. He and his family speak Afrikaans around me all the time when we have a BBQ ("Braai" in Afrikaans) together. I don't find that rude - 1) I figure if they meant the words for me, they'd speak in English (which they do - most of the Afrikaans is just the parents yelling at the kids) and 2) I picked up a lot of Afrikaans from them bit by bit (Afrikaans being a Dutch relic dialect of sorts, I found it not that different from German).
  26. @John Massey
    That photo confused me, because they are all wearing medals.

    But when I checked the IMO results for 2015, the USA team (which won it that year, and in 2016) had only six competing members, all male, who all scored gold medals. I counted them as two South Asians (I'm talking origins here, you understand - and that's assuming that I'm guessing right and Kural is a Tamil name), one Mainland Chinese, one Hong Kong Chinese, and a couple of white guys (Ashkenazim? *shrug* at least one, maybe, from the name). So it looks like the two female team members didn't actually compete in the international competition - probably scored their medals in the national selection, but didn't make the cut for the international competition. I dunno.

    It's a weird competition - doesn't include calculus, but more obscure branches of mathematics. Terence Tao tried it three times, and won a bronze, silver and finally a gold medal. Mind you, he was only 13 when he won the gold medal, but then he was passing university level mathematics courses when he was 9. It seemed like he needed to learn with each attempt which branches of mathematics to familiarise himself with before he got gold. There was some European female who competed three times and won three gold medals. Maybe Terence just wasn't nerdish enough - or not yet old enough to develop his now encyclopædic knowledge of mathematics.

    The highest scoring female in the 2016 IMO was Qi Qi from the Canadian team, who scored a silver medal. But then, Canada came 12th out of (I counted) 109 countries, so not too shabby. The Hong Kong girl got a bronze. But eyeballing all of the teams., females are really drastically underrepresented in the international competition, although a few seem to be able to kick some arse in their national selection competitions.

    The above photo is the national team, the USAMO winners. Since the competition is open to anyone attending a US high school, three of the guys in the photo are foreigners. All three attend boarding school. In the first row, starting from the left, the first guy is from Thailand (Kritkorn Karntikoon), and the second and fourth guys competed for Canada (Kevin Sun and Zhuo Qun “Alex” Song). The Canadians went on to win gold medals at the 2015 IMO. Although the Thai guy had won IMO silvers Thailand for in 2013 and 2014, he did not compete at the 2015 IMO for some reason.

    At the 2015 IMO, Zhuo Qun “Alex” Song of Canada received special recognition for being the only person to ever win five IMO golds. He also won a bronze his first year. He also ended his IMO career with a perfect score. Lisa Sauermann of Germany won four IMO golds and a silver. She had a perfect score in her last competition. She went to the University of Bonn and is now studying for her PhD at Stanford. LINK

    The 2015 US international team consisted of three whites (Ryan Alweiss, Michael Kural, and David Stoner), one East Asian (Allen Liu), one Indian (Shyam Narayanan), and one mixed Indian-Chinese (Yang Liu (Patil)). LINK

    If you search by year on the IMO site, you can sort countries by number of females. Since you mentioned 2016, Laos had four females, Boznia and Herzegovina and Ireland had three, and eleven countries had two, although Egypt, Madagascar, and Trinidad did not send full teams. Trinidad’s team was all South Asian, although one of the females may be mixed with white. LINK LINK

    • Replies: @jimmyriddle
    I notice Bangladesh wiped the floor with Pakistan.

    The benefit of non-cousin marriage, possibly.
    , @rec1man
    Shyam Narayan is a Tamil Brahmin
  27. @Triumph104
    The above photo is the national team, the USAMO winners. Since the competition is open to anyone attending a US high school, three of the guys in the photo are foreigners. All three attend boarding school. In the first row, starting from the left, the first guy is from Thailand (Kritkorn Karntikoon), and the second and fourth guys competed for Canada (Kevin Sun and Zhuo Qun "Alex" Song). The Canadians went on to win gold medals at the 2015 IMO. Although the Thai guy had won IMO silvers Thailand for in 2013 and 2014, he did not compete at the 2015 IMO for some reason.

    At the 2015 IMO, Zhuo Qun "Alex" Song of Canada received special recognition for being the only person to ever win five IMO golds. He also won a bronze his first year. He also ended his IMO career with a perfect score. Lisa Sauermann of Germany won four IMO golds and a silver. She had a perfect score in her last competition. She went to the University of Bonn and is now studying for her PhD at Stanford. LINK

    The 2015 US international team consisted of three whites (Ryan Alweiss, Michael Kural, and David Stoner), one East Asian (Allen Liu), one Indian (Shyam Narayanan), and one mixed Indian-Chinese (Yang Liu (Patil)). LINK

    If you search by year on the IMO site, you can sort countries by number of females. Since you mentioned 2016, Laos had four females, Boznia and Herzegovina and Ireland had three, and eleven countries had two, although Egypt, Madagascar, and Trinidad did not send full teams. Trinidad's team was all South Asian, although one of the females may be mixed with white. LINK LINK

    I notice Bangladesh wiped the floor with Pakistan.

    The benefit of non-cousin marriage, possibly.

  28. @Sean

    http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/publications/observer/2013/december-13/mapping-mindsets.htmlRecently, we tested approximately 400 undergraduates at an elite American university. About half of them were of European descent, while the remaining half were native Asians, .... among non-carriers of these high dopamine gene variants, the cultural difference was absent. It appears, then, that the high dopamine gene variant carriers play some kind of special role in sustaining the values and beliefs of their culture.
     
    Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are conformist to the culture that they were brought up in. But be they of Chinese or European origin, the US born and assimilated people arguing against the idea that non cultural reasons could explain why East Asians exceed Europeans are acting in conformity with US culture. However, the variability in acting in conformity with culture apparently stems from certain gene variants.

    What are you trying to say?

    This sounds like something a 5 year-old with access to an adult dictionary wrote.

    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    literally LOL.

    you should see the 50% of the comments from this guy i don't post...
  29. @res

    Also since when is speaking another language between two private parties in front of English speakers “considered rude” unless the said English speakers were part of the conversation? And I write that as a rabid English Firster.
     
    I would say if they are speaking unfavorably about the English speakers that would qualify as rude. (depending on the circumstances perhaps justifiable, but rude nonetheless) I enjoy the genre of stories involving unexpected comprehension of foreign languages. ; )

    keep pushing that “non-whites always vote Democrat” narrative since that seems to be the preferred self-fulfilling prophecy of the white nationalist crowd.
     
    Given that the Democrats push that narrative as well it seems an understandable mistake. Still worth calling it out as wrong as you do.

    if they are speaking unfavorably

    That’s impolite in any language. That’s not the issue here.

    There appear to be some people who are simply irritated to hear a foreign tongue in their vicinity and find it “rude.” I think they are making up things about which to be upset. Either that or they have problems with the speakers of the said foreign language, not the language itself.

    I might have mentioned in another thread that I have a close friend who is an Afrikaner emigre. He and his family speak Afrikaans around me all the time when we have a BBQ (“Braai” in Afrikaans) together. I don’t find that rude – 1) I figure if they meant the words for me, they’d speak in English (which they do – most of the Afrikaans is just the parents yelling at the kids) and 2) I picked up a lot of Afrikaans from them bit by bit (Afrikaans being a Dutch relic dialect of sorts, I found it not that different from German).

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    I think it's something that, coming from a smaller Midwestern city to Chicago (with which I was already somewhat familiar due to family ties) I got used to. It was still annoying to me in the mid-1990s hearing Polish immigrants in the office speaking Polish to each other all day. (And I am of 25% Polish heritage.)
  30. @Hacienda
    How about the lay down about Asians looking all alike. The Asian kids fall into
    types but the types are morphologically very different- square, triangle, circle, oval, hexagonal heads. Skin tones are varied from ivory to dark wood.

    The kid on the right front row is a classic. Asian silverback.

    How about the lay down about Asians looking all alike.

    The auburn tinge in my facial hair always sends some folks into a tizzy. They all exclaim, “You have to be part-white or something.” Nope. So sorry. My family’s been in East Asia for a millenium plus. And that’s only recorded history.

    • Replies: @dux.ie
    Your auburn tinge most probably is due to the V92M variant of the MC1R gene http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs2228479 of which about 40% of the Chinese and 19% of Korean have it.

    According to Ding, this particular one for the East Asian is a mutated introgressed variant from the Altaic Neaderthal. However it is often not visible because it is recessive and black hair gene is dominant. So you might able to claim that it can be traced back 50K BP in Asia.
  31. @Twinkie
    What are you trying to say?

    This sounds like something a 5 year-old with access to an adult dictionary wrote.

    literally LOL.

    you should see the 50% of the comments from this guy i don’t post…

  32. @Triumph104
    The above photo is the national team, the USAMO winners. Since the competition is open to anyone attending a US high school, three of the guys in the photo are foreigners. All three attend boarding school. In the first row, starting from the left, the first guy is from Thailand (Kritkorn Karntikoon), and the second and fourth guys competed for Canada (Kevin Sun and Zhuo Qun "Alex" Song). The Canadians went on to win gold medals at the 2015 IMO. Although the Thai guy had won IMO silvers Thailand for in 2013 and 2014, he did not compete at the 2015 IMO for some reason.

    At the 2015 IMO, Zhuo Qun "Alex" Song of Canada received special recognition for being the only person to ever win five IMO golds. He also won a bronze his first year. He also ended his IMO career with a perfect score. Lisa Sauermann of Germany won four IMO golds and a silver. She had a perfect score in her last competition. She went to the University of Bonn and is now studying for her PhD at Stanford. LINK

    The 2015 US international team consisted of three whites (Ryan Alweiss, Michael Kural, and David Stoner), one East Asian (Allen Liu), one Indian (Shyam Narayanan), and one mixed Indian-Chinese (Yang Liu (Patil)). LINK

    If you search by year on the IMO site, you can sort countries by number of females. Since you mentioned 2016, Laos had four females, Boznia and Herzegovina and Ireland had three, and eleven countries had two, although Egypt, Madagascar, and Trinidad did not send full teams. Trinidad's team was all South Asian, although one of the females may be mixed with white. LINK LINK

    Shyam Narayan is a Tamil Brahmin

  33. @Sean
    The Maya had a world lead in certain aspects of mathematics

    Yeah but the Mayans aren’t the ones winning medals for Mexico. The Mexican teams are mostly white with a few mestizos.

  34. Hmm… to try and explain / interpret Sean in other words , essentially, in the study he links, high-dopamine DRD4 variant carriers among Euro-Americans tended to be more independent and less interdependent (and in theory less sensitive to how “culturally sanctioned behaviors are likely to be reinforced by rewards, such as social approval by parents and peers”). While high-dopamine variant DRD4 carriers among “native Asians, none of whom had spent more than 7 years in the US at the time” were the opposite. There was no difference among carriers of the lower-dopamine variant, suggesting that the lower-dopamine carriers were less influenced by social rewards and social approval.

    They go on to state “It appears, then, that the high dopamine gene variant carriers play some kind of special role in sustaining the values and beliefs of their culture.”.

    IRC East Asians carry the high dopamine variant at higher frequency, so just extrapolating naively from that, all things equal, if so expect East Asians raised in the US to conform more strongly to whatever social rewards and approval they’d perceive around them (whether they perceive that to be being a yee-haw cowboy wannabe who lurves shootin’ or a social justice-y activist type). Might or might not end up being greater or lesser personality variation, but the variation would be expected to align more closely with what the individual perceives to be valued. (Now, if high dopamine variant is at the same frequency between East Asians and Euro Americans, none of this last paragraph, or indeed Sean’s post, would seem to make much sense).

    • Replies: @Sean
    The 4 repeat is the most common allele worldwide. In East Asians the second most common is the 2 repeat and in Europeans the second most common is the 7 repeat. The two and seven repeats are both high dopamine.

    I remember the late Professor Harpending saying something about how reporting significant differences by ethnicity in a gene influencing social behavior would ensure an academic got no grants for rest of his career. But I think it significant that an increased dopamine caused by studying too much is supposed to be responsible tor the bad eyesight of 90% of young Chinese http://www.nature.com/news/the-myopia-boom-1.17120 "In Seoul, a whopping 96.5% of 19-year-old men are short-sighted". FWIIW I think Koreans have the greatest proportion of high dopamine individuals.

    Anyway, what I was getting at is the East Asaians on both sided of this controversy are likely bearers of high dopamine 2-repeat alleles. The ones brought up in the US can't understand why recent immigrants don't think like they do.

    , @Twinkie
    I wanted to read the linked article, but alas it's not there.
    , @Twinkie

    if so expect East Asians raised in the US to conform more strongly to whatever social rewards and approval they’d perceive around them (whether they perceive that to be being a yee-haw cowboy wannabe who lurves shootin’ or a social justice-y activist type).
     
    1. Can a person (Asian or not) just love shooting without this insulting connotation of being "a yee-haw cowboy wannabe who lurves shootin'"?

    2. If Asian-Americans do something without whites watching, do they make a sound? Put another way, do whites exert an observer effect on Asian-Americans? :)

    3. On a more serious note, what are the mechanisms of perceiving "social rewards and approval" in a dynamic you describe? Whether high-dopamine or low-dopamine carriers, how would you identify and isolate the effects of the variability in the perception mechanism and its significance?
  35. @Lucrece
    I think this hysteria over using Asians as a model minority comes from the same emotional place as the taboo on observing gender differences in behavior and capacity. People don't understand the concept of looking at the population level, and it creates a wave of people who look at a population and presume about individuals, and said individuals who could be potentially affected by these presumptions screech wildly about said studies promoting these presumptions in a manner that limits their prospects as individuals.

    Left-wing politics also get nervous when one brings up why a particular racial and gender group causes riots that ravage local businesses and end in casualties, yet women, gay men, Asians, and Jews for example don't tear up cities whenever some slight is perceived.

    When Lawrence King was shot to death over asking his classmate to be his Valentine, and the jury made up of straight middle aged parents revealed bias to sentence premeditated murder so far as to even campaign in the accused's favor, there were no riots by gay activists when premeditated murder by the school bully in plain view of several eyewitness had to reach a plea bargain of 2nd degree murder because the jury refused to sentence 1st degree out of sympathy for the straight shooter.

    Where are the riots when abortion clinics get bombed? Even the most recalcitrant of college sex assault feminist activists don't end up in wanton aggression or collateral damage to bystanders. Culture does inform behavior, they just only use culture when it suits them.

    Would these people also call it a myth of achievement when we look at the racial breakdown of the NBA, NFL, MLB relative to their proportion of the population? If there is nothing wrong with disparate athletic achievement, why would it be so scandalous to include academics as another form of achievement?

    Left-wing politics also get nervous

    You are on to something here. The existence of a model minority leads to questions and thoughts about why it is a model and why other minorities are not considered model.

    For that same reason we don’t see black-on-black crime being hit on that hard. It brings up questions about black-on-white crime and the question why should black-on-black crime be considered worse.

  36. @Matt_
    Hmm... to try and explain / interpret Sean in other words , essentially, in the study he links, high-dopamine DRD4 variant carriers among Euro-Americans tended to be more independent and less interdependent (and in theory less sensitive to how "culturally sanctioned behaviors are likely to be reinforced by rewards, such as social approval by parents and peers"). While high-dopamine variant DRD4 carriers among "native Asians, none of whom had spent more than 7 years in the US at the time" were the opposite. There was no difference among carriers of the lower-dopamine variant, suggesting that the lower-dopamine carriers were less influenced by social rewards and social approval.

    They go on to state "It appears, then, that the high dopamine gene variant carriers play some kind of special role in sustaining the values and beliefs of their culture.".

    IRC East Asians carry the high dopamine variant at higher frequency, so just extrapolating naively from that, all things equal, if so expect East Asians raised in the US to conform more strongly to whatever social rewards and approval they'd perceive around them (whether they perceive that to be being a yee-haw cowboy wannabe who lurves shootin' or a social justice-y activist type). Might or might not end up being greater or lesser personality variation, but the variation would be expected to align more closely with what the individual perceives to be valued. (Now, if high dopamine variant is at the same frequency between East Asians and Euro Americans, none of this last paragraph, or indeed Sean's post, would seem to make much sense).

    The 4 repeat is the most common allele worldwide. In East Asians the second most common is the 2 repeat and in Europeans the second most common is the 7 repeat. The two and seven repeats are both high dopamine.

    I remember the late Professor Harpending saying something about how reporting significant differences by ethnicity in a gene influencing social behavior would ensure an academic got no grants for rest of his career. But I think it significant that an increased dopamine caused by studying too much is supposed to be responsible tor the bad eyesight of 90% of young Chinese http://www.nature.com/news/the-myopia-boom-1.17120 “In Seoul, a whopping 96.5% of 19-year-old men are short-sighted”. FWIIW I think Koreans have the greatest proportion of high dopamine individuals.

    Anyway, what I was getting at is the East Asaians on both sided of this controversy are likely bearers of high dopamine 2-repeat alleles. The ones brought up in the US can’t understand why recent immigrants don’t think like they do.

  37. Given all the politically correct pieties regarding the equal distribution of math ability among different demographic groups I have always found group photos of the US Math Olympiad Teams to be utterly hilarious.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    The photograph of the US team reminds me of the Saturday Night Live skit in which the anchor of the Weekend Updates segments reports:

    "In sports news, Kristi YAMAGUCHI of the United States beat Midori ITO of Japan in Olympic figure skating and won the gold medal.

    Yeah! We showed those Japs!"
    , @Triumph104
    Trinidad and Tobago is a third black and a third East Indian. The blacks are descended from slaves and the East Indians are descended from indentured servants brought in to replace the slaves, yet their IMO team is all East Indian. LINK


    These teams speak for themselves:

    Australia LINK
    Botswana LINK
    Canada LINK
    Kenya LINK
    New Zealand LINK
    South Africa LINK
    Switzerland LINK
  38. @Matt_
    Hmm... to try and explain / interpret Sean in other words , essentially, in the study he links, high-dopamine DRD4 variant carriers among Euro-Americans tended to be more independent and less interdependent (and in theory less sensitive to how "culturally sanctioned behaviors are likely to be reinforced by rewards, such as social approval by parents and peers"). While high-dopamine variant DRD4 carriers among "native Asians, none of whom had spent more than 7 years in the US at the time" were the opposite. There was no difference among carriers of the lower-dopamine variant, suggesting that the lower-dopamine carriers were less influenced by social rewards and social approval.

    They go on to state "It appears, then, that the high dopamine gene variant carriers play some kind of special role in sustaining the values and beliefs of their culture.".

    IRC East Asians carry the high dopamine variant at higher frequency, so just extrapolating naively from that, all things equal, if so expect East Asians raised in the US to conform more strongly to whatever social rewards and approval they'd perceive around them (whether they perceive that to be being a yee-haw cowboy wannabe who lurves shootin' or a social justice-y activist type). Might or might not end up being greater or lesser personality variation, but the variation would be expected to align more closely with what the individual perceives to be valued. (Now, if high dopamine variant is at the same frequency between East Asians and Euro Americans, none of this last paragraph, or indeed Sean's post, would seem to make much sense).

    I wanted to read the linked article, but alas it’s not there.

  39. @Twinkie

    How about the lay down about Asians looking all alike.
     
    The auburn tinge in my facial hair always sends some folks into a tizzy. They all exclaim, "You have to be part-white or something." Nope. So sorry. My family's been in East Asia for a millenium plus. And that's only recorded history.

    Your auburn tinge most probably is due to the V92M variant of the MC1R gene http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs2228479 of which about 40% of the Chinese and 19% of Korean have it.

    According to Ding, this particular one for the East Asian is a mutated introgressed variant from the Altaic Neaderthal. However it is often not visible because it is recessive and black hair gene is dominant. So you might able to claim that it can be traced back 50K BP in Asia.

    • Replies: @Shaikorth
    If it's that old, its higher frequencies in East Asians and South Chinese in particular are likely caused by a recent sweep given its rarity in South Asia and the Americas (Karitiana, Maya and Surui totally lack it).

    http://browser.1000genomes.org/Homo_sapiens/Variation/Population?db=core;r=16:89985440-89986440;v=rs2228479;vdb=variation;vf=1613066
    , @Twinkie

    Your auburn tinge most probably is due to
     
    Thank you for the information.

    I get it from my mother who had, not just a tinge, but completely auburn hair. She was teased as a child about her hair, so took to dying it jet black most of her life until she turned gray... which is funny in a way, because some young East Asian women nowadays pay good money to colorists to dye their hair red.
  40. @Jim
    Given all the politically correct pieties regarding the equal distribution of math ability among different demographic groups I have always found group photos of the US Math Olympiad Teams to be utterly hilarious.

    The photograph of the US team reminds me of the Saturday Night Live skit in which the anchor of the Weekend Updates segments reports:

    “In sports news, Kristi YAMAGUCHI of the United States beat Midori ITO of Japan in Olympic figure skating and won the gold medal.

    Yeah! We showed those Japs!”

  41. @dux.ie
    Your auburn tinge most probably is due to the V92M variant of the MC1R gene http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs2228479 of which about 40% of the Chinese and 19% of Korean have it.

    According to Ding, this particular one for the East Asian is a mutated introgressed variant from the Altaic Neaderthal. However it is often not visible because it is recessive and black hair gene is dominant. So you might able to claim that it can be traced back 50K BP in Asia.

    If it’s that old, its higher frequencies in East Asians and South Chinese in particular are likely caused by a recent sweep given its rarity in South Asia and the Americas (Karitiana, Maya and Surui totally lack it).

    http://browser.1000genomes.org/Homo_sapiens/Variation/Population?db=core;r=16:89985440-89986440;v=rs2228479;vdb=variation;vf=1613066

    • Replies: @dux.ie
    I was pushing it to the extreme :) Allentoft's ancient Bronze Age DNA sample did not detect rs2228479 in Asia, as summarized in the table in http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-genetic-architecture-natural-history-of-pigmentation .

    The significant event after that period was the formation of the Chinese Zhou dynasty (1046 BCP) from the alliance of the Ji and Jiang people, both from NW China close to the Altai region. Jiang in Mandarin is also used to describe people with red hairs. The Zhou dynasty lasted over 700 years and the population explosion from these two population groups could have contributed to the present distribution of rs2228479 in Chinese. About half of the modern Chinese surnames are from the ancient Ji and Jiang peoples.

    For their efforts, the Jiang people were awarded the state of Qi in NE China, the capital of which is Linzi. There are studies on the ancient DNA from LInzi,
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/9/1396.full
    http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1112/1112.2013.pdf
  42. @ Twinkie, the proper url for that article would be is: http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/publications/observer/2013/december-13/mapping-mindsets.html

    (Actual papers – http://biosocialmethods.isr.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Psychological-Science-2014-Kitayama.pdf

    http://neuroecon.berkeley.edu/public/papers/Current%20Opinion%20in%20Psychology%202015%20Kitayama.pdf )

    @ Sean, from the links above it seems like the high frequency of combined 2R and 7R alleles in Europeans and East Asians is actually pretty much the same, if you bracket both 2R and 7R together as high dopamine variants.

    Though, if the distribution is actually that Europeans have 4R as the major allele, 7R as the minor (high dopamine), while East Asians have 4R as the major, 2R as the minor (high dopamine), then that suggests a wrinkle for the study. In that it seems that you could just say that the European “high dopamine” carriers actually behave the way they do because they have 7R, while the Asian “high dopamine” carriers behave the way they do because they have 2R.

    Which would be basically pretty much taking us back to the simple model of how Cochran and Harpending theorised it in the first place (in “10,000 Year Explosion”), and the whole model of a “high dopamine variant”+culture interaction goes away.

    Further research is needed! For example, on African or Native American populations who have different distributions (Amerindians mostly 7R).

    If the high dopamine variant+culture idea does hold up, it *would* be interesting (and amusing) for the genetic tendency for the most vigilant and assiduous people who were compliant to a culture would then be most sensitive to their kids picking up new cultural tendencies if they moved (or the norms shifted). Like say you had two very strongly culturally American parents, high dopamine carriers, move to Japan, and their kids pick up the local culture strongly, while the children of other expatriates, low dopamine carriers, who perhaps weren’t as culturally American have their kids pick up less of the new culture. And amusing for most culture wars to be effectively between high dopamine variant carriers.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    (Actual papers – http://biosocialmethods.isr.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Psychological-Science-2014-Kitayama.pdf
     
    Thank you!
  43. @Jim
    Given all the politically correct pieties regarding the equal distribution of math ability among different demographic groups I have always found group photos of the US Math Olympiad Teams to be utterly hilarious.

    Trinidad and Tobago is a third black and a third East Indian. The blacks are descended from slaves and the East Indians are descended from indentured servants brought in to replace the slaves, yet their IMO team is all East Indian. LINK

    These teams speak for themselves:

    Australia LINK
    Botswana LINK
    Canada LINK
    Kenya LINK
    New Zealand LINK
    South Africa LINK
    Switzerland LINK

    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Were the East Asian kids representing African countries RECRUITED (internationally) for their teams?
  44. @Triumph104
    Asians are a model minority based on education, crime stats, out of wedlock births, etc. However, the term shouldn't be used because it can be alienating and most people want to be judged for their individual achievements.

    The link above tries to disprove the model minority "myth" stating that "most Southeast Asian Americans including Hmong, Cambodians, and Laotians never finished high school-at times, rates comparable if not lower than other racial minority groups (U.S. Census Bureau, 2004)." Well, most Asian Americans are foreign born and the census includes people who were never educated in the US, like grandma and uncle.

    If you look at 16-24 year olds, you get a different picture. Data from 2007 shows that the high school dropout rate for US born Vietnamese and Other Asians was lower than that for US-born whites. Foreign born Vietnamese have a lower dropout rate than both US and foreign born whites. Foreign born Other Asians have a lower dropout rate than US born blacks and Hispanics.

    In the Hmong-heavy Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul, MN,Asians (read: Hmong) across all grades score higher on state reading and math exams than blacks, Hispanics, Native Americans, and students in poverty.

    There are only 32,000 Hmongs in the Fresno area, approximate population of a million. Yet, Hmongs are 6% of the student body at Fresno State and by far the largest Asian group. This despite the fact that only 2% of Fresno public high school students are college ready.

    Asians are a model minority based on education, crime stats, out of wedlock births, etc.

    Exactly. Asians in American have a low frequency of anti-social behavior. No one cares if the neighbor’s kid becomes a plumber, rather than a quant. They do care if the neighbor’s kid becomes a smack dealer.

    However, the term shouldn’t be used because it can be alienating and most people want to be judged for their individual achievements.

    Most people want a lot of stupid things they can’t have. Spare the rod, spoil the child.

    • Replies: @Sean
    Spare the bears and spoil the child

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/30/asia/japan-boy-woods/
  45. @The Z Blog

    Asians are a model minority based on education, crime stats, out of wedlock births, etc.
     
    Exactly. Asians in American have a low frequency of anti-social behavior. No one cares if the neighbor's kid becomes a plumber, rather than a quant. They do care if the neighbor's kid becomes a smack dealer.

    However, the term shouldn’t be used because it can be alienating and most people want to be judged for their individual achievements.
     
    Most people want a lot of stupid things they can't have. Spare the rod, spoil the child.

    Spare the bears and spoil the child

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/30/asia/japan-boy-woods/

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Spare the bears and spoil the child

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/30/asia/japan-boy-woods/
     
    Ah, yes, but without that kind of "punishment" as preparation for life, would this be possible?

    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/09/03/national/black-belt-recalls-battle-black-bear-gunma#.WAAnn-TruUk
  46. @Matt_
    @ Twinkie, the proper url for that article would be is: http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/publications/observer/2013/december-13/mapping-mindsets.html

    (Actual papers - http://biosocialmethods.isr.umich.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Psychological-Science-2014-Kitayama.pdf

    http://neuroecon.berkeley.edu/public/papers/Current%20Opinion%20in%20Psychology%202015%20Kitayama.pdf )

    @ Sean, from the links above it seems like the high frequency of combined 2R and 7R alleles in Europeans and East Asians is actually pretty much the same, if you bracket both 2R and 7R together as high dopamine variants.

    Though, if the distribution is actually that Europeans have 4R as the major allele, 7R as the minor (high dopamine), while East Asians have 4R as the major, 2R as the minor (high dopamine), then that suggests a wrinkle for the study. In that it seems that you could just say that the European "high dopamine" carriers actually behave the way they do because they have 7R, while the Asian "high dopamine" carriers behave the way they do because they have 2R.

    Which would be basically pretty much taking us back to the simple model of how Cochran and Harpending theorised it in the first place (in "10,000 Year Explosion"), and the whole model of a "high dopamine variant"+culture interaction goes away.

    Further research is needed! For example, on African or Native American populations who have different distributions (Amerindians mostly 7R).

    If the high dopamine variant+culture idea does hold up, it *would* be interesting (and amusing) for the genetic tendency for the most vigilant and assiduous people who were compliant to a culture would then be most sensitive to their kids picking up new cultural tendencies if they moved (or the norms shifted). Like say you had two very strongly culturally American parents, high dopamine carriers, move to Japan, and their kids pick up the local culture strongly, while the children of other expatriates, low dopamine carriers, who perhaps weren't as culturally American have their kids pick up less of the new culture. And amusing for most culture wars to be effectively between high dopamine variant carriers.
  47. @Sean
    Spare the bears and spoil the child

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/30/asia/japan-boy-woods/

    Spare the bears and spoil the child

    http://edition.cnn.com/2016/05/30/asia/japan-boy-woods/

    Ah, yes, but without that kind of “punishment” as preparation for life, would this be possible?

    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2016/09/03/national/black-belt-recalls-battle-black-bear-gunma#.WAAnn-TruUk

  48. @dux.ie
    Your auburn tinge most probably is due to the V92M variant of the MC1R gene http://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Rs2228479 of which about 40% of the Chinese and 19% of Korean have it.

    According to Ding, this particular one for the East Asian is a mutated introgressed variant from the Altaic Neaderthal. However it is often not visible because it is recessive and black hair gene is dominant. So you might able to claim that it can be traced back 50K BP in Asia.

    Your auburn tinge most probably is due to

    Thank you for the information.

    I get it from my mother who had, not just a tinge, but completely auburn hair. She was teased as a child about her hair, so took to dying it jet black most of her life until she turned gray… which is funny in a way, because some young East Asian women nowadays pay good money to colorists to dye their hair red.

    • Replies: @dux.ie
    The effect usually come out when White and Chinese intermarried, e.g. the daughters of Murdoch and Deng where Deng most probably has a latent V92M and the daughters most probably have homogygous V92M, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SWczwqj6KdQ/UfhShgE1wGI/AAAAAAAAQ_w/Ilzw1HJs6ho/s1600/couple+with+children.jpg

    If the Chinese partner has no latent V92M the children most probably have black hair, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Wong

    However, for East Asian homogygous V92M is necessary but not sufficient condition to have red hair. It is strange that in Ding's data Taiwan Chinese have 0/43 homogygous V92M (AA) yet Korean have 2/34 AA even when the pct of V92M in Taiwan Chinese and Koreans are 30.2% and 19.1% respectively.
  49. @Sean
    The Maya had a world lead in certain aspects of mathematics

    Your statement is complete, utter and total nonsense.

  50. @Shaikorth
    If it's that old, its higher frequencies in East Asians and South Chinese in particular are likely caused by a recent sweep given its rarity in South Asia and the Americas (Karitiana, Maya and Surui totally lack it).

    http://browser.1000genomes.org/Homo_sapiens/Variation/Population?db=core;r=16:89985440-89986440;v=rs2228479;vdb=variation;vf=1613066

    I was pushing it to the extreme 🙂 Allentoft’s ancient Bronze Age DNA sample did not detect rs2228479 in Asia, as summarized in the table in http://www.unz.com/gnxp/the-genetic-architecture-natural-history-of-pigmentation .

    The significant event after that period was the formation of the Chinese Zhou dynasty (1046 BCP) from the alliance of the Ji and Jiang people, both from NW China close to the Altai region. Jiang in Mandarin is also used to describe people with red hairs. The Zhou dynasty lasted over 700 years and the population explosion from these two population groups could have contributed to the present distribution of rs2228479 in Chinese. About half of the modern Chinese surnames are from the ancient Ji and Jiang peoples.

    For their efforts, the Jiang people were awarded the state of Qi in NE China, the capital of which is Linzi. There are studies on the ancient DNA from LInzi,
    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/9/1396.full
    http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1112/1112.2013.pdf

  51. @Twinkie

    Your auburn tinge most probably is due to
     
    Thank you for the information.

    I get it from my mother who had, not just a tinge, but completely auburn hair. She was teased as a child about her hair, so took to dying it jet black most of her life until she turned gray... which is funny in a way, because some young East Asian women nowadays pay good money to colorists to dye their hair red.

    The effect usually come out when White and Chinese intermarried, e.g. the daughters of Murdoch and Deng where Deng most probably has a latent V92M and the daughters most probably have homogygous V92M,

    If the Chinese partner has no latent V92M the children most probably have black hair, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Wong

    However, for East Asian homogygous V92M is necessary but not sufficient condition to have red hair. It is strange that in Ding’s data Taiwan Chinese have 0/43 homogygous V92M (AA) yet Korean have 2/34 AA even when the pct of V92M in Taiwan Chinese and Koreans are 30.2% and 19.1% respectively.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    The effect usually come out when White and Chinese intermarried
     
    I am not Chinese, but I am East Asian. And my wife is white - German, English, and Swedish in origin. One of our children has shiny auburn hair.

    Our oldest child has brown hair, but oddly his roots are completely blonde! I thought that would go away as he aged, but it didn't.

    There is quite a mix in hair color among the kids, but the really striking thing is the eye color variation. Everything from brown to green eyes.
  52. @pyrrhus
    The only consistent trait that I have noticed across all Asian groups is their conformity to whatever they see as the dominant narrative or power group. But they retain their ethnicity, and will even hold conversations in their native languages in front of english speakers, which would normally be considered rude....So one would expect them to favor the Democrats and that part of the liberal Narrative that doesn't harm them, and to block vote for their own. And they do all three, in my experience.

    The 2nd generation Asians I’ve known generally haven’t been fluent enough in their native languages to be comfortable speaking them much. They seem to be able to understand what their parents say in their native languages, but often not able to speak them.

    Presumably by “retain their ethnicity” you mean something like self-segregation, and in that respect I don’t know that they do any more than whites do.

    I don’t think elaborate explanations for party affiliation based on pop evo-psych reasons are necessary. The Democratic Party has aggressively cultivated and depended upon immigrants as a constituency for more than a century. Republican Party politics has little cultural relevance both in immigrant areas and in the parts of the mainstream American landscape that are most immediately accessible to immigrants – pop culture, major metro areas, higher education, commerce, the corporate world, etc. The Republicans by contrast have cultivated and depended upon constituencies in American life that are the most remote from immigrants, such as rural America. Politics is zero-sum, and there is a degree of mutual exclusivity in making appeals to various constituencies. Simply being perceived as making an appeal to a different constituency can be regarded as pandering and compromising to another.

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @Sean
    http://www.mercurynews.com/2014/03/13/affirmative-action-proposal-for-california-universities-runs-into-asian-american-opposition/
    Asian-American Democrats in the California state senate .
    , @Twinkie

    The 2nd generation Asians I’ve known generally haven’t been fluent enough in their native languages to be comfortable speaking them much.
     
    American-born Asians attain English monolingualism faster and at higher rates than other major immigrant groups, including Hispanics.

    Presumably by “retain their ethnicity” you mean something like self-segregation, and in that respect I don’t know that they do any more than whites do.
     
    Although this is partly a function of their small population, Asians have the highest rates of living next to people of other ethno-racial groups. In other words, they are the least likely to live in a (segregated) monoethnic neighborhood.

    The Democratic Party has aggressively cultivated and depended upon immigrants as a constituency for more than a century. Republican Party politics has little cultural relevance both in immigrant areas
     
    Things are a bit more complicated than that. As late as 1992, Asians voted for the GOP at higher rates than whites did. Since then, of course, things have changed much, including the demographic composition of "Asians" in America. The fastest growing group of Asian immigrants today is made up of Indians, and they vote overwhelmingly for the Democrats. In the past, Filipinos, Vietnamese, and Koreans tended to vote for the Republicans, in part as a function of anti-communism in the case of the latter two and in another part due to Christianity (Catholicism for Filipinos and Vietnamese; evangelical Protestantism for Koreans).

    Even now, religious affiliation is a very large factor among Asian-Americans on voting. At least that was the case the last time I looked at the data, which was a few years back.

    Far from having "little cultural relevance ... in immigrant areas," the GOP does better with certain older Asian immigrant demographics than among younger American-born Asians.
  53. @Bill M
    The 2nd generation Asians I've known generally haven't been fluent enough in their native languages to be comfortable speaking them much. They seem to be able to understand what their parents say in their native languages, but often not able to speak them.

    Presumably by "retain their ethnicity" you mean something like self-segregation, and in that respect I don't know that they do any more than whites do.

    I don't think elaborate explanations for party affiliation based on pop evo-psych reasons are necessary. The Democratic Party has aggressively cultivated and depended upon immigrants as a constituency for more than a century. Republican Party politics has little cultural relevance both in immigrant areas and in the parts of the mainstream American landscape that are most immediately accessible to immigrants - pop culture, major metro areas, higher education, commerce, the corporate world, etc. The Republicans by contrast have cultivated and depended upon constituencies in American life that are the most remote from immigrants, such as rural America. Politics is zero-sum, and there is a degree of mutual exclusivity in making appeals to various constituencies. Simply being perceived as making an appeal to a different constituency can be regarded as pandering and compromising to another.
    • Replies: @Bill M
    White Southern Democrats and white, Catholic ethnic Democrats in the north were major opponents of black civil rights and integration in the 60s, and of the increasing social liberalism more generally. Most of the South defected to the GOP, and many of the northern white ethnics did as well. Many of those who have remained with the Democrats have tended to be more upwardly mobile and better off types, who have been able to insulate themselves better.

    Considering their influence relative to that of blacks, it seems unlikely that Asian Democrats will be able to push the Democratic Party into opposing affirmative action. Moreover, Southern Democrats and northern ethnic Democrats were very large demographic groups; it simply wasn't possible for most of them to be able to insulate themselves from the changes brought about by civil rights and social liberalism.
  54. @Sean
    http://www.mercurynews.com/2014/03/13/affirmative-action-proposal-for-california-universities-runs-into-asian-american-opposition/
    Asian-American Democrats in the California state senate .

    White Southern Democrats and white, Catholic ethnic Democrats in the north were major opponents of black civil rights and integration in the 60s, and of the increasing social liberalism more generally. Most of the South defected to the GOP, and many of the northern white ethnics did as well. Many of those who have remained with the Democrats have tended to be more upwardly mobile and better off types, who have been able to insulate themselves better.

    Considering their influence relative to that of blacks, it seems unlikely that Asian Democrats will be able to push the Democratic Party into opposing affirmative action. Moreover, Southern Democrats and northern ethnic Democrats were very large demographic groups; it simply wasn’t possible for most of them to be able to insulate themselves from the changes brought about by civil rights and social liberalism.

    • Agree: iffen
  55. @Twinkie

    if they are speaking unfavorably
     
    That's impolite in any language. That's not the issue here.

    There appear to be some people who are simply irritated to hear a foreign tongue in their vicinity and find it "rude." I think they are making up things about which to be upset. Either that or they have problems with the speakers of the said foreign language, not the language itself.

    I might have mentioned in another thread that I have a close friend who is an Afrikaner emigre. He and his family speak Afrikaans around me all the time when we have a BBQ ("Braai" in Afrikaans) together. I don't find that rude - 1) I figure if they meant the words for me, they'd speak in English (which they do - most of the Afrikaans is just the parents yelling at the kids) and 2) I picked up a lot of Afrikaans from them bit by bit (Afrikaans being a Dutch relic dialect of sorts, I found it not that different from German).

    I think it’s something that, coming from a smaller Midwestern city to Chicago (with which I was already somewhat familiar due to family ties) I got used to. It was still annoying to me in the mid-1990s hearing Polish immigrants in the office speaking Polish to each other all day. (And I am of 25% Polish heritage.)

  56. @Triumph104
    Trinidad and Tobago is a third black and a third East Indian. The blacks are descended from slaves and the East Indians are descended from indentured servants brought in to replace the slaves, yet their IMO team is all East Indian. LINK


    These teams speak for themselves:

    Australia LINK
    Botswana LINK
    Canada LINK
    Kenya LINK
    New Zealand LINK
    South Africa LINK
    Switzerland LINK

    Were the East Asian kids representing African countries RECRUITED (internationally) for their teams?

    • Replies: @Triumph104
    I haven't studied East Asians representing African countries but I guarantee you they weren't recruited. They are probably like East Asians in the West, children of recent immigrants, most of whom are in the STEM field. A few could be third or fourth generation African, but I seriously doubt it. Let's look a Sherry Gong as an example.

    Sherry Gong's parents immigrated from China to obtain PhDs in math, her father from SUNY, Stony Brook, and her mother from The University of Toronto. Her parents became professors at the University of Puerto Rico. While Sherry was in middle school, she won IMO medals for Puerto Rico. When Sherry was in high school at Phillips Exeter, she won IMO medals for the United States. No one recruited her; she simply competed where she was living. If her family had stayed in Canada she would have competed for Canada.

    https://www.imo-official.org/participant_r.aspx?id=7209
  57. @Hibernian
    Were the East Asian kids representing African countries RECRUITED (internationally) for their teams?

    I haven’t studied East Asians representing African countries but I guarantee you they weren’t recruited. They are probably like East Asians in the West, children of recent immigrants, most of whom are in the STEM field. A few could be third or fourth generation African, but I seriously doubt it. Let’s look a Sherry Gong as an example.

    Sherry Gong’s parents immigrated from China to obtain PhDs in math, her father from SUNY, Stony Brook, and her mother from The University of Toronto. Her parents became professors at the University of Puerto Rico. While Sherry was in middle school, she won IMO medals for Puerto Rico. When Sherry was in high school at Phillips Exeter, she won IMO medals for the United States. No one recruited her; she simply competed where she was living. If her family had stayed in Canada she would have competed for Canada.

    https://www.imo-official.org/participant_r.aspx?id=7209

  58. Just on the note at the end, What explains Asian* success ? I always assumed it was mostly selective migration (I’m not arguing the case, just this was my, probably misinformed, impression)

    *”Asian” is a broad category here, so are the causes of this success different within each group , or are there generalisations that can be made (ie is Indian success explainable by the same mechanisms as Chinese and Japanese )

  59. The generic term “Asians” is useless. A Russian born in Vladivostok is “Asian”.

    As far as the immigration of Chinese to other countries it generally has not been immigration of high-status Chinese but rather of poor Chinese. For example Chinese immigration to Malaysia consisted of laborers coming to work in the tin mines not of Mandarin scholars. But today the ethnic Chinese do much better than Malays there. The immigration of Chinese to Jamaica consisted of illiterate peasants coming in the late 19th century as indentured laborers to work in the sugar plantations. By the time of the anti-Chinese riots in the mid 20th century their descendents controlled 98% of the retail establishments in Jamaica despite being a small part of the Jamaican population with no significant political power.

    Present day immigration of Chinese to the US may be pretty selective but the Chinese and Japanese who immigrated to the US a century or so ago were most definitely drawn from the poor masses of those countries not the elite. They have nevertheless done very well in the US.

    People tend to get rather emotional about this subject but obviously the simplest explaination of the success of Northeast Asians in countries to which they have migrated is the higher average level of intelligence of Northeast Asians as indicated by IQ tests and brain size.

    • Replies: @Matt_
    Re: Malaysian tin miners, I think that's the story I've heard. Though the whole composition of a migration wave could be pretty different from what the modal members are like. Like a migration wave could have the bottom 50% of Chinese at around 70% of the composition of the migration wave, and then the top 5% of Chinese at 10% of the migration wave, and very relatively little from the intermediates. The whole wave being disproportionately driven by less successful (mostly) and more successful people (to a lesser extent) at the same time.

    It's the sort of thing that sorts itself out over generations, and washes out if you're looking at averages, but I think it could make it difficult to estimate like "Oh, well, since there are this many Chinese in this country doing elite thing X (like IMO entry), so we can estimate the average ability level of Chinese in that country from that and their census size".

    For success in the broadest terms, I think as you say most smart money would be on link between being generally mentally sharp to general success by East Asian migrants in most Western societies. In a general, loose sense (how much wealth and income a group has, healthy lifespan, etc.). It's when we look at the more specific facets of success, rather than success in a general, loose, economic sense, and the magnitudes of economic performance compared to intelligence differences (rather than just the direction), then I think it gets more tricky and questions of culture and human geography can add more value.

    Like university education. In the US you have these more convergent college enrollment rates by High School grads between Black, Hispanic and White Americans with each other than they do with the Asian grouping
    (http://www.usnews.com/cmsmedia/5a/85/b57cd6af4c5584db63328a89143f/140922collegerace-graphic.png / http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-CM176_race_G_20140422170906.jpg). Even though the IQ stuff would suggest that the Asian grouping would be with the Whites or that the Whites would be intermediate Asian and Hispanic and the Asian grouping is likely undercounting the East Asian-White American difference.

    It's even more of a pronounced shift in the UK - http://www.integrationhub.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/DEMJ3320_ChartsCh04_outlined_10.svg (taken from http://www.integrationhub.net/module/education/) where White British are very much back of the line in terms of how many are making university applications and Chinese are much higher in a way that dwarfs any expectation you might make from the IQ gap alone. (Although at the moment that does also manifest in White British being somewhat less likely to be overqualified for their job - https://societycentral.ac.uk/2015/05/14/poverty-and-ethnicity-what-are-the-links/).

    For both countries this is also gonna be further pronounced when look at specific subject areas within universities - STEM vs non-STEM.

    (With the open question for the future being will these shifts in education, which are beyond the magnitude of the intelligence gap, lay the foundations for future balances of economic power between different sub groups within multi-ethnic Western states that are also beyond what would be expected based on the IQ measures?).
  60. @Twinkie

    The only consistent trait that I have noticed across all Asian groups is their conformity to whatever they see as the dominant narrative or power group.
     
    That's very interesting, because the only consistent trait that I have noticed across all white groups is their non-conformity, rugged individualism, and resistance to the dominant narrative or power group... even in Scandinavia!*

    *Yes, I am being sarcastic. Scandinavians are famously egalitarian and conformist.

    But they retain their ethnicity, and will even hold conversations in their native languages in front of english speakers, which would normally be considered rude….
     
    Progeny of Asian immigrants in the U.S. are marked by a VERY HIGH degree of English monolingualism and intermarriage. They lose the culture of their forebears very rapidly, though of course the degrees of assimilation vary wildly among different sub-groups.

    Also since when is speaking another language between two private parties in front of English speakers "considered rude" unless the said English speakers were part of the conversation? And I write that as a rabid English Firster.

    So one would expect them to favor the Democrats and that part of the liberal Narrative that doesn’t harm them, and to block vote for their own.
     
    Asian political allegiance in the U.S. is highly variable, divided, and shallow. But keep pushing that "non-whites always vote Democrat" narrative since that seems to be the preferred self-fulfilling prophecy of the white nationalist crowd.

    > since when is speaking another language between two private parties in front of English speakers “considered rude”

    It is. Of course not just /English/ speakers, but speaking in code, whispering, communicating in any fashion where people in your company can’t understand you is considered rude. It’s not a strong rudeness like openly farting or something but it’s rude. Now you know.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    people in your company can’t understand you
     
    First of all, it's not clear that the OP meant this or whether he just happened to be near two speakers of a non-English language. Would you still find the latter impolite?

    Second, my Afrikaner friends speak in Afrikaans to their children in my presence ALL THE TIME. It's not "code" or "whispering" though it is "communicating in any fashion." I don't find that rude at all. The said communication is not meant for me, so I do not see why I should take offense.
  61. @the cruncher
    > since when is speaking another language between two private parties in front of English speakers “considered rude”

    It is. Of course not just /English/ speakers, but speaking in code, whispering, communicating in any fashion where people in your company can't understand you is considered rude. It's not a strong rudeness like openly farting or something but it's rude. Now you know.

    people in your company can’t understand you

    First of all, it’s not clear that the OP meant this or whether he just happened to be near two speakers of a non-English language. Would you still find the latter impolite?

    Second, my Afrikaner friends speak in Afrikaans to their children in my presence ALL THE TIME. It’s not “code” or “whispering” though it is “communicating in any fashion.” I don’t find that rude at all. The said communication is not meant for me, so I do not see why I should take offense.

  62. @dux.ie
    The effect usually come out when White and Chinese intermarried, e.g. the daughters of Murdoch and Deng where Deng most probably has a latent V92M and the daughters most probably have homogygous V92M, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SWczwqj6KdQ/UfhShgE1wGI/AAAAAAAAQ_w/Ilzw1HJs6ho/s1600/couple+with+children.jpg

    If the Chinese partner has no latent V92M the children most probably have black hair, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Wong

    However, for East Asian homogygous V92M is necessary but not sufficient condition to have red hair. It is strange that in Ding's data Taiwan Chinese have 0/43 homogygous V92M (AA) yet Korean have 2/34 AA even when the pct of V92M in Taiwan Chinese and Koreans are 30.2% and 19.1% respectively.

    The effect usually come out when White and Chinese intermarried

    I am not Chinese, but I am East Asian. And my wife is white – German, English, and Swedish in origin. One of our children has shiny auburn hair.

    Our oldest child has brown hair, but oddly his roots are completely blonde! I thought that would go away as he aged, but it didn’t.

    There is quite a mix in hair color among the kids, but the really striking thing is the eye color variation. Everything from brown to green eyes.

  63. @Bill M
    The 2nd generation Asians I've known generally haven't been fluent enough in their native languages to be comfortable speaking them much. They seem to be able to understand what their parents say in their native languages, but often not able to speak them.

    Presumably by "retain their ethnicity" you mean something like self-segregation, and in that respect I don't know that they do any more than whites do.

    I don't think elaborate explanations for party affiliation based on pop evo-psych reasons are necessary. The Democratic Party has aggressively cultivated and depended upon immigrants as a constituency for more than a century. Republican Party politics has little cultural relevance both in immigrant areas and in the parts of the mainstream American landscape that are most immediately accessible to immigrants - pop culture, major metro areas, higher education, commerce, the corporate world, etc. The Republicans by contrast have cultivated and depended upon constituencies in American life that are the most remote from immigrants, such as rural America. Politics is zero-sum, and there is a degree of mutual exclusivity in making appeals to various constituencies. Simply being perceived as making an appeal to a different constituency can be regarded as pandering and compromising to another.

    The 2nd generation Asians I’ve known generally haven’t been fluent enough in their native languages to be comfortable speaking them much.

    American-born Asians attain English monolingualism faster and at higher rates than other major immigrant groups, including Hispanics.

    Presumably by “retain their ethnicity” you mean something like self-segregation, and in that respect I don’t know that they do any more than whites do.

    Although this is partly a function of their small population, Asians have the highest rates of living next to people of other ethno-racial groups. In other words, they are the least likely to live in a (segregated) monoethnic neighborhood.

    The Democratic Party has aggressively cultivated and depended upon immigrants as a constituency for more than a century. Republican Party politics has little cultural relevance both in immigrant areas

    Things are a bit more complicated than that. As late as 1992, Asians voted for the GOP at higher rates than whites did. Since then, of course, things have changed much, including the demographic composition of “Asians” in America. The fastest growing group of Asian immigrants today is made up of Indians, and they vote overwhelmingly for the Democrats. In the past, Filipinos, Vietnamese, and Koreans tended to vote for the Republicans, in part as a function of anti-communism in the case of the latter two and in another part due to Christianity (Catholicism for Filipinos and Vietnamese; evangelical Protestantism for Koreans).

    Even now, religious affiliation is a very large factor among Asian-Americans on voting. At least that was the case the last time I looked at the data, which was a few years back.

    Far from having “little cultural relevance … in immigrant areas,” the GOP does better with certain older Asian immigrant demographics than among younger American-born Asians.

  64. @Matt_
    Hmm... to try and explain / interpret Sean in other words , essentially, in the study he links, high-dopamine DRD4 variant carriers among Euro-Americans tended to be more independent and less interdependent (and in theory less sensitive to how "culturally sanctioned behaviors are likely to be reinforced by rewards, such as social approval by parents and peers"). While high-dopamine variant DRD4 carriers among "native Asians, none of whom had spent more than 7 years in the US at the time" were the opposite. There was no difference among carriers of the lower-dopamine variant, suggesting that the lower-dopamine carriers were less influenced by social rewards and social approval.

    They go on to state "It appears, then, that the high dopamine gene variant carriers play some kind of special role in sustaining the values and beliefs of their culture.".

    IRC East Asians carry the high dopamine variant at higher frequency, so just extrapolating naively from that, all things equal, if so expect East Asians raised in the US to conform more strongly to whatever social rewards and approval they'd perceive around them (whether they perceive that to be being a yee-haw cowboy wannabe who lurves shootin' or a social justice-y activist type). Might or might not end up being greater or lesser personality variation, but the variation would be expected to align more closely with what the individual perceives to be valued. (Now, if high dopamine variant is at the same frequency between East Asians and Euro Americans, none of this last paragraph, or indeed Sean's post, would seem to make much sense).

    if so expect East Asians raised in the US to conform more strongly to whatever social rewards and approval they’d perceive around them (whether they perceive that to be being a yee-haw cowboy wannabe who lurves shootin’ or a social justice-y activist type).

    1. Can a person (Asian or not) just love shooting without this insulting connotation of being “a yee-haw cowboy wannabe who lurves shootin’”?

    2. If Asian-Americans do something without whites watching, do they make a sound? Put another way, do whites exert an observer effect on Asian-Americans? 🙂

    3. On a more serious note, what are the mechanisms of perceiving “social rewards and approval” in a dynamic you describe? Whether high-dopamine or low-dopamine carriers, how would you identify and isolate the effects of the variability in the perception mechanism and its significance?

    • Replies: @Matt_
    1. Most certainly. And I think that's one where if you enjoy it or not probably doesn't actually have too much to do with the social approval and more on how it feels and other factors. (But I knew my audience and how to get a response here? ;) )

    2. We should probably all have observer effects on one another.

    3. I don't really know whether the authors have a formal way to work out how to do that or a proposed neurological mechanism, unless it was in there and I missed it. Other than the sort of circular way of "If it a difference discriminates between the 2R+7R group and the 4R group then it should load on social approval and the culture's general values".
  65. @Jim
    The generic term "Asians" is useless. A Russian born in Vladivostok is "Asian".

    As far as the immigration of Chinese to other countries it generally has not been immigration of high-status Chinese but rather of poor Chinese. For example Chinese immigration to Malaysia consisted of laborers coming to work in the tin mines not of Mandarin scholars. But today the ethnic Chinese do much better than Malays there. The immigration of Chinese to Jamaica consisted of illiterate peasants coming in the late 19th century as indentured laborers to work in the sugar plantations. By the time of the anti-Chinese riots in the mid 20th century their descendents controlled 98% of the retail establishments in Jamaica despite being a small part of the Jamaican population with no significant political power.

    Present day immigration of Chinese to the US may be pretty selective but the Chinese and Japanese who immigrated to the US a century or so ago were most definitely drawn from the poor masses of those countries not the elite. They have nevertheless done very well in the US.

    People tend to get rather emotional about this subject but obviously the simplest explaination of the success of Northeast Asians in countries to which they have migrated is the higher average level of intelligence of Northeast Asians as indicated by IQ tests and brain size.

    Re: Malaysian tin miners, I think that’s the story I’ve heard. Though the whole composition of a migration wave could be pretty different from what the modal members are like. Like a migration wave could have the bottom 50% of Chinese at around 70% of the composition of the migration wave, and then the top 5% of Chinese at 10% of the migration wave, and very relatively little from the intermediates. The whole wave being disproportionately driven by less successful (mostly) and more successful people (to a lesser extent) at the same time.

    It’s the sort of thing that sorts itself out over generations, and washes out if you’re looking at averages, but I think it could make it difficult to estimate like “Oh, well, since there are this many Chinese in this country doing elite thing X (like IMO entry), so we can estimate the average ability level of Chinese in that country from that and their census size”.

    For success in the broadest terms, I think as you say most smart money would be on link between being generally mentally sharp to general success by East Asian migrants in most Western societies. In a general, loose sense (how much wealth and income a group has, healthy lifespan, etc.). It’s when we look at the more specific facets of success, rather than success in a general, loose, economic sense, and the magnitudes of economic performance compared to intelligence differences (rather than just the direction), then I think it gets more tricky and questions of culture and human geography can add more value.

    Like university education. In the US you have these more convergent college enrollment rates by High School grads between Black, Hispanic and White Americans with each other than they do with the Asian grouping
    (http://www.usnews.com/cmsmedia/5a/85/b57cd6af4c5584db63328a89143f/140922collegerace-graphic.png / http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/BN-CM176_race_G_20140422170906.jpg). Even though the IQ stuff would suggest that the Asian grouping would be with the Whites or that the Whites would be intermediate Asian and Hispanic and the Asian grouping is likely undercounting the East Asian-White American difference.

    It’s even more of a pronounced shift in the UK – http://www.integrationhub.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/DEMJ3320_ChartsCh04_outlined_10.svg (taken from http://www.integrationhub.net/module/education/) where White British are very much back of the line in terms of how many are making university applications and Chinese are much higher in a way that dwarfs any expectation you might make from the IQ gap alone. (Although at the moment that does also manifest in White British being somewhat less likely to be overqualified for their job – https://societycentral.ac.uk/2015/05/14/poverty-and-ethnicity-what-are-the-links/).

    For both countries this is also gonna be further pronounced when look at specific subject areas within universities – STEM vs non-STEM.

    (With the open question for the future being will these shifts in education, which are beyond the magnitude of the intelligence gap, lay the foundations for future balances of economic power between different sub groups within multi-ethnic Western states that are also beyond what would be expected based on the IQ measures?).

  66. @Twinkie

    if so expect East Asians raised in the US to conform more strongly to whatever social rewards and approval they’d perceive around them (whether they perceive that to be being a yee-haw cowboy wannabe who lurves shootin’ or a social justice-y activist type).
     
    1. Can a person (Asian or not) just love shooting without this insulting connotation of being "a yee-haw cowboy wannabe who lurves shootin'"?

    2. If Asian-Americans do something without whites watching, do they make a sound? Put another way, do whites exert an observer effect on Asian-Americans? :)

    3. On a more serious note, what are the mechanisms of perceiving "social rewards and approval" in a dynamic you describe? Whether high-dopamine or low-dopamine carriers, how would you identify and isolate the effects of the variability in the perception mechanism and its significance?

    1. Most certainly. And I think that’s one where if you enjoy it or not probably doesn’t actually have too much to do with the social approval and more on how it feels and other factors. (But I knew my audience and how to get a response here? 😉 )

    2. We should probably all have observer effects on one another.

    3. I don’t really know whether the authors have a formal way to work out how to do that or a proposed neurological mechanism, unless it was in there and I missed it. Other than the sort of circular way of “If it a difference discriminates between the 2R+7R group and the 4R group then it should load on social approval and the culture’s general values”.

  67. “People tend to get rather emotional about this subject but obviously the simplest explaination of the success of Northeast Asians in countries to which they have migrated is the higher average level of intelligence of Northeast Asians as indicated by IQ tests and brain size.”

    Who has a higher IQ, though? I assume the peasant migrant doesn’t , so is it their offspring ? Higher than what, the average in the country they go to ? Does this hold across the board in all the countries you mentioned ? If the poor and uneducated who prosper outside china can’t prosper within, then what does that tell us ? It seems either the average south East Asian is even more capable than the migrant, or else the migrant was disenfeanchised in some way in the Sending country and unable to fulfill their potential (if the second, then we’re back to selective migration )
    Those are non rhetorical questions, jim, I’m genuinely curious about the specifics of the IQ argument, but can’t see it ..

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    If the poor and uneducated who prosper outside china can’t prosper within, then what does that tell us ?
     
    It tells us that China is very competitive.
    , @Matt_
    @ Ronan, from what I recall apparently even peasants in China on average do actually have pretty high IQ compared to European populations, which means they do pretty well on what IQ tests are, which are fairly easy to understand, not necessarily easy to solve abstract problems that aren't that susceptible to training (or just aren't that taught), along with tests of vocab and things like that.

    Those Chinese peasants probably don't do particularly well in tests of skills or education necessarily. An analogous case is with South Korea, where younger adults have the highest levels of life skills among the OECD groups, while the old Korean adults have somewhat low life skills in literacy and numeracy compared to other countries https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2732535 (lower abilities to use reading comprehension, mathematics, etc. in daily life applications). I expect lots of China is probably similar to these older Korean adults at the moment, fairly good IQ, fairly poor education and skills for use in an advanced economy.

    Overseas Chinese seem to generally invest a lot in education. Partly as they're often selected from the upper educational slice of China (http://newdiversities.mmg.mpg.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/2014_16-01_02_Lee.pdf - "51% of Chinese immigrants and 26% of Vietnamese immigrants in the United States have a bachelor’s degree or higher, compared to only 5% of adults in China and Vietnam"). Partly as it's just a common migrant strategy for success and they will tend to find they're good at it, to a large degree because of the IQ (though China is not a highly educated country), and maybe because the personality skills also suit that studious behaviour.

    (This is apparently not totally universal among all Chinese migrants (though most), as apparently in Spain, the Chinese , who are less selected than the wave going to the US, "exhibit the lowest educational aspirations and expectations of all second-generation groups, including Ecuadorians, Central Americans, Dominicans, and Moroccans ... Given the perception of a closed opportunity structure in Spain—especially for visible minorities - Chinese immigrants have no faith that a post-secondary education or a university degree will lead to a professional job, so they’ve turned to entrepreneurship and encouraged their children to do the same" - https://thesocietypages.org/papers/tiger-kids-and-the-success-frame/. Depends on whether education is thought to lead to high paying jobs and prestige or not. I don't have an independent reference than Jennifer Lee to confirm this though.)
  68. @Ronan
    "People tend to get rather emotional about this subject but obviously the simplest explaination of the success of Northeast Asians in countries to which they have migrated is the higher average level of intelligence of Northeast Asians as indicated by IQ tests and brain size."

    Who has a higher IQ, though? I assume the peasant migrant doesn't , so is it their offspring ? Higher than what, the average in the country they go to ? Does this hold across the board in all the countries you mentioned ? If the poor and uneducated who prosper outside china can't prosper within, then what does that tell us ? It seems either the average south East Asian is even more capable than the migrant, or else the migrant was disenfeanchised in some way in the Sending country and unable to fulfill their potential (if the second, then we're back to selective migration )
    Those are non rhetorical questions, jim, I'm genuinely curious about the specifics of the IQ argument, but can't see it ..

    If the poor and uneducated who prosper outside china can’t prosper within, then what does that tell us ?

    It tells us that China is very competitive.

    • Replies: @iffen
    It tells us that China is very competitive.

    Aren't you assuming perfect meritocracy there.

    Knowing very little about China, I can't address that specific situation, but based upon my knowledge of other countries and societies, there are many cultural and political obstacles to the full expression of meritocracy.
  69. @Twinkie

    If the poor and uneducated who prosper outside china can’t prosper within, then what does that tell us ?
     
    It tells us that China is very competitive.

    It tells us that China is very competitive.

    Aren’t you assuming perfect meritocracy there.

    Knowing very little about China, I can’t address that specific situation, but based upon my knowledge of other countries and societies, there are many cultural and political obstacles to the full expression of meritocracy.

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Aren’t you assuming perfect meritocracy there.
     
    No. Competition implies neither perfection nor meritocracy.
  70. @Ronan
    "People tend to get rather emotional about this subject but obviously the simplest explaination of the success of Northeast Asians in countries to which they have migrated is the higher average level of intelligence of Northeast Asians as indicated by IQ tests and brain size."

    Who has a higher IQ, though? I assume the peasant migrant doesn't , so is it their offspring ? Higher than what, the average in the country they go to ? Does this hold across the board in all the countries you mentioned ? If the poor and uneducated who prosper outside china can't prosper within, then what does that tell us ? It seems either the average south East Asian is even more capable than the migrant, or else the migrant was disenfeanchised in some way in the Sending country and unable to fulfill their potential (if the second, then we're back to selective migration )
    Those are non rhetorical questions, jim, I'm genuinely curious about the specifics of the IQ argument, but can't see it ..

    @ Ronan, from what I recall apparently even peasants in China on average do actually have pretty high IQ compared to European populations, which means they do pretty well on what IQ tests are, which are fairly easy to understand, not necessarily easy to solve abstract problems that aren’t that susceptible to training (or just aren’t that taught), along with tests of vocab and things like that.

    Those Chinese peasants probably don’t do particularly well in tests of skills or education necessarily. An analogous case is with South Korea, where younger adults have the highest levels of life skills among the OECD groups, while the old Korean adults have somewhat low life skills in literacy and numeracy compared to other countries https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2732535 (lower abilities to use reading comprehension, mathematics, etc. in daily life applications). I expect lots of China is probably similar to these older Korean adults at the moment, fairly good IQ, fairly poor education and skills for use in an advanced economy.

    Overseas Chinese seem to generally invest a lot in education. Partly as they’re often selected from the upper educational slice of China (http://newdiversities.mmg.mpg.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/2014_16-01_02_Lee.pdf – “51% of Chinese immigrants and 26% of Vietnamese immigrants in the United States have a bachelor’s degree or higher, compared to only 5% of adults in China and Vietnam”). Partly as it’s just a common migrant strategy for success and they will tend to find they’re good at it, to a large degree because of the IQ (though China is not a highly educated country), and maybe because the personality skills also suit that studious behaviour.

    (This is apparently not totally universal among all Chinese migrants (though most), as apparently in Spain, the Chinese , who are less selected than the wave going to the US, “exhibit the lowest educational aspirations and expectations of all second-generation groups, including Ecuadorians, Central Americans, Dominicans, and Moroccans … Given the perception of a closed opportunity structure in Spain—especially for visible minorities – Chinese immigrants have no faith that a post-secondary education or a university degree will lead to a professional job, so they’ve turned to entrepreneurship and encouraged their children to do the same”https://thesocietypages.org/papers/tiger-kids-and-the-success-frame/. Depends on whether education is thought to lead to high paying jobs and prestige or not. I don’t have an independent reference than Jennifer Lee to confirm this though.)

    • Replies: @Twinkie

    Overseas Chinese seem to generally invest a lot in education. Partly as they’re often selected from the upper educational slice of China
     
    That was not the case historically.
  71. @iffen
    It tells us that China is very competitive.

    Aren't you assuming perfect meritocracy there.

    Knowing very little about China, I can't address that specific situation, but based upon my knowledge of other countries and societies, there are many cultural and political obstacles to the full expression of meritocracy.

    Aren’t you assuming perfect meritocracy there.

    No. Competition implies neither perfection nor meritocracy.

  72. @Matt_
    @ Ronan, from what I recall apparently even peasants in China on average do actually have pretty high IQ compared to European populations, which means they do pretty well on what IQ tests are, which are fairly easy to understand, not necessarily easy to solve abstract problems that aren't that susceptible to training (or just aren't that taught), along with tests of vocab and things like that.

    Those Chinese peasants probably don't do particularly well in tests of skills or education necessarily. An analogous case is with South Korea, where younger adults have the highest levels of life skills among the OECD groups, while the old Korean adults have somewhat low life skills in literacy and numeracy compared to other countries https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2732535 (lower abilities to use reading comprehension, mathematics, etc. in daily life applications). I expect lots of China is probably similar to these older Korean adults at the moment, fairly good IQ, fairly poor education and skills for use in an advanced economy.

    Overseas Chinese seem to generally invest a lot in education. Partly as they're often selected from the upper educational slice of China (http://newdiversities.mmg.mpg.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/2014_16-01_02_Lee.pdf - "51% of Chinese immigrants and 26% of Vietnamese immigrants in the United States have a bachelor’s degree or higher, compared to only 5% of adults in China and Vietnam"). Partly as it's just a common migrant strategy for success and they will tend to find they're good at it, to a large degree because of the IQ (though China is not a highly educated country), and maybe because the personality skills also suit that studious behaviour.

    (This is apparently not totally universal among all Chinese migrants (though most), as apparently in Spain, the Chinese , who are less selected than the wave going to the US, "exhibit the lowest educational aspirations and expectations of all second-generation groups, including Ecuadorians, Central Americans, Dominicans, and Moroccans ... Given the perception of a closed opportunity structure in Spain—especially for visible minorities - Chinese immigrants have no faith that a post-secondary education or a university degree will lead to a professional job, so they’ve turned to entrepreneurship and encouraged their children to do the same" - https://thesocietypages.org/papers/tiger-kids-and-the-success-frame/. Depends on whether education is thought to lead to high paying jobs and prestige or not. I don't have an independent reference than Jennifer Lee to confirm this though.)

    Overseas Chinese seem to generally invest a lot in education. Partly as they’re often selected from the upper educational slice of China

    That was not the case historically.

    • Replies: @Matt_
    In the case of the recent US it is, and if degree holders are about 10x overrepresented in the current US Chinese diaspora, presumably that has more than zero role to play (if there is any parental transmission of education status). In other societies not so much, but I don't know if they invested in education as much as recent US Chinese (even if they did more than natives did).
  73. @Twinkie

    Overseas Chinese seem to generally invest a lot in education. Partly as they’re often selected from the upper educational slice of China
     
    That was not the case historically.

    In the case of the recent US it is, and if degree holders are about 10x overrepresented in the current US Chinese diaspora, presumably that has more than zero role to play (if there is any parental transmission of education status). In other societies not so much, but I don’t know if they invested in education as much as recent US Chinese (even if they did more than natives did).

    • Replies: @Razib Khan
    the 'model minority' thesis emerge in the 1960s as a counterpoint to racial tensions btwn blacks and whites. chinese and japanese were doing well then. their social origins are well known. they were not elites. the japanese in particular were disproportionately the poorer farmers from southern japan last i checked.
  74. @Matt_
    In the case of the recent US it is, and if degree holders are about 10x overrepresented in the current US Chinese diaspora, presumably that has more than zero role to play (if there is any parental transmission of education status). In other societies not so much, but I don't know if they invested in education as much as recent US Chinese (even if they did more than natives did).

    the ‘model minority’ thesis emerge in the 1960s as a counterpoint to racial tensions btwn blacks and whites. chinese and japanese were doing well then. their social origins are well known. they were not elites. the japanese in particular were disproportionately the poorer farmers from southern japan last i checked.

    • Replies: @Matt_
    Yes, that's fine if we're talking about the story of the model minority idea in the US and how and when it emerged, and I'm fine with the idea that it emerged before high selection of Chinese migrants took place, and that educational selection of Chinese migrants was not important to that.

    If we've shifted to discussion about the present day Chinese Americans and the degree to which they engage in higher education, then it seems like there is a large selective factor (by simply comparing education of Chinese migrants to China and origin countries) and that should mater.
  75. @Razib Khan
    the 'model minority' thesis emerge in the 1960s as a counterpoint to racial tensions btwn blacks and whites. chinese and japanese were doing well then. their social origins are well known. they were not elites. the japanese in particular were disproportionately the poorer farmers from southern japan last i checked.

    Yes, that’s fine if we’re talking about the story of the model minority idea in the US and how and when it emerged, and I’m fine with the idea that it emerged before high selection of Chinese migrants took place, and that educational selection of Chinese migrants was not important to that.

    If we’ve shifted to discussion about the present day Chinese Americans and the degree to which they engage in higher education, then it seems like there is a large selective factor (by simply comparing education of Chinese migrants to China and origin countries) and that should mater.

  76. Matt @72, thanks for the links, and for the others you gave on the thread. Ill look over them this weekend.
    So is the story with the pre 60s Chinese and Japanese immigrants just that they did what European immigrant groups did, ie moved into the middle and upper classes over a couple of generations ? Would the comparison then be to previous European immigrant groups(who were also drawn from the poorer classes)? How did they compare in mobility and educational attainment to those groups once explicit barriers were removed ?

  77. @ Ronan, cool. I don’t know anything about the process of how European migrants or pre-1960s Asian migrants moved up through classes and education really and how comparable it is to pre and post 1960s Asian migrants.

    Some relevant related things might be –

    – On Asian migrants, pre and post 1960s: Ozek and Figlio’s cross comparisons of fairly large groups of First, Second and Third Generation Asian and Hispanic folk on educational accomplishment –
    http://www.umdcipe.org/conferences/DecliningMiddleClassesSpain/Papers/Ozek.pdf.

    There’s apparently in their data a pretty marked reversion towards the White average among the Third Generation Asians, who I would assume would be mostly the descendants of the pre-1960s wave, where they’re still stronger than White average but closer to it than they are to the First (early entering) or the Second Generation (recent migration) Asians.

    I can’t remember if they removed the effects of parental education from that, I think not. May also be due to different composition (different Asian countries of origin), though I would not think that Third Generation Asian group would be any less East Asian (Japanese, Chinese, Korean) than recent groups. I would note I think the authors seem to think the generational differences are driven by different attitudes rather than educational selection composition.

    http://ftp.iza.org/dp9060.pdf – Does It Matter Where You Came From? Ancestry Composition and Economic Performance of U.S. Counties, 1850-2010 “Our results show that when the share of people from high income or more trusting countries increases, county GDP per capita increases as well. Yet we also show that after 1850 people from high income countries on average live in poorer counties. This relationship is explained by the early settlement patterns of the English, who even today are disproportionately in rural areas in the South, by the settlement of later immigrants, such as the Italians, in the cities, and the Great Migration of African Americans towards the cities in the North. That people from rich countries generally live in poor counties illustrates how important the panel nature of our data is for understanding the effects of ancestry” Suggests later European migrants (Italian, Irish) after initial settlement of the US may still not today be doing quite as well as / as productive as descendants of earlier migrants (English) within the same regions of the USA, but have settled in richer regions in general. Later migrants settled in the established urban regions, where earlier migrants spread out according to the available agricultural land.

    – This is a bit more tenuous but vocab score which correlates with social class by Razib for a breakdown of different Euro-American groups – http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/12/vocabulary-score-by-race-ethnicity-and-region/#.WAoPJGVrjIU. Some slight differences where the self identified ethnic groups who are from later migrants might be doing slightly worse on that measure.

  78. […] about the causes of inequality (which are complex and too easily blamed on race alone). As Razib Kahn, an Asian American blogger who routinely complains about this very thing, said in a piece he wrote […]

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