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Rashida_Jones

Rashida Jones

Geneticists are people of their time. I’m rather sure that if Charles Davenport had written a book with the title Race Crossing in Jamaica today it would end with a far different moral, because the dominant Zeitgeist in regards to racial admixture in the United States is far different nearly 100 years on. In my post below where I review interesting aspects of the new study from researchers in David Reich’s lab and 23andMe, The Genetic Ancestry of African Americans, Latinos, and European Americans across the United States, I didn’t cover the variation in admixture in black and white Americans too much in detail. Partly that’s because this study only improved the bigger picture on the margins, and with finer geographic grain (though these were interesting obviously). We knew that the vast majority of white Americans who are not Hispanic do not have detectable non-European ancestry. It has also long been reported and verified that a substantial minority of the total ancestry of black Americans is of European origin, with a small Native American fraction as well. Additionally, this non-African ancestry in black Americans varies by geography as well as individual to individual a great deal.

euro So I have to take issue when The New York Times posts articles with headlines such as White? Black? A Murky Distinction Grows Still Murkier. What genetics is showing is that in fact white Americans are shockingly European to an incredibly high degree for a population with roots on this continent for 400 years. If we removed all the history that we take for granted we’d be amazed that the indigenous peoples had so little demographic impact, and, that the larger numbers of people of partial African ancestry did not move into the general “white” population. This is in fact the case across much of Latin America, where many self-identified whites, blanco, have African and indigenous ancestry. But we do know the reasons for why North America was unique, a combination of a smaller indigenous population which underwent a mass die off, and folk migrations on a huge scale previously unimaginable in human history. Whole villages in Poland and Norway, not just working age males, decamped for the New World. The original Anglo settler stock on the North American seaboard underwent a period of incredible demography expansion driven by high birthrates, in particular in New England, which in the 17th century had some of the highest total fertility rates recorded in human history.

The peculiar nature of white Americans is evident in the figure to the left. You see that black Americans span the gamut from being mostly African to mostly European (I believe that individuals who are 100% European but state they are black are probably due to error in self-identification on the survey). Though it isn’t quite clear on these sorts of plots (yes, I know why there’s moderate opacity), the black American distribution of African/European ancestry is not symmetrical, but is skewed, so that a small minority of black Americans are more than 50% European in ancestry, while the majority are less than 25% European. With the Latino populations you see admixture with both Africans and Native Americans. Though typical Mexican people are presumed to be mixed between European and Native, most Mexicans seem to have low, but detectable, levels of African ancestry. This is almost certainly due to the attested slave population across the Spanish colonies. And, this is contrast to the situation in the United States, where even “Old Stock” Anglo-Americans whose ancestors have been coexistent with people of African origin for at least 250 years by and large.

51TZ-cnJTrL._SS500_ My own hunch is that the contrast between Anglo-America and Latin America when it comes to admixture has a lot to do with the fact that a far larger proportion of the European settlers were female. This allowed for a total replication of European populations, norms, and mores, rather than enforcing a sort of synthesis, as was necessary in Latin America. In the Spanish colonies European males were initially very polygynous, establishing liaisons with many women, both indigenous and black. A modest stream of men from Europe could quickly “whiten” what had initially been a mixed first generation, resulting in a elite creole caste which was predominantly European, but whose Europeanization had been male mediated atop a foundational base which featured non-European women. This can explain with the mtDNA lineages are so much more indigenous than total genome content might lead one to suspect. In Latin America individuals with obvious non-European ancestry, such as Vincente Guerrero, could rise to positions of prominence, and forward the project of a European-dominated society. In contrast someone with mixed blood in the United States would have been socially marginalized, and had minimal prospects outside of a few exceptional cases (e.g., among the mixed race Creoles of Louisiana).

41AFhg61TZL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_ Of course even with balanced sex ratios relations across racial lines occurred. This brings us to the next step of a peculiarity in the ideology of white American racial supremacy: hypodescent. This is the rule by which mixed offspring inherit the racial identity and social status of the parent whose is of the inferior race. In the United States this operationally meant that children born to slave mothers of free white fathers were considered black, and condemned to slavery (this is in contrast to the official rule in Islam, where children of the master who were recognized were free). In some ways this practice seems similar to lack of rights which non-legitimate offspring experience in many societies. But in the American context it was highly racialized. The norm of hypodescent also resulted in scientific theories which buttressed it, such as Madison Grant’s contention that mixing between superior and inferior races always resulted in a population which resembled the inferior race (the law of “reversion toward the lower type”). Charles Davenport even went so far as to argue that admixture produced offspring inferior to both parental types, a form of hybrid breakdown.

It is entirely reasonable to argue that racial categories in the United States are blurred if one holds to a Platonic and essentialist view which resembles that which underpinned white racial supremacy and the law of hypdoescent. But as it is these views have no necessary scientific basis, and a percent or two of African ancestry in someone who is ~98 percent of European ancestry does not make them non-white in any rational sense. The 12 year old paper, Categorization of humans in biomedical research: genes, race and disease, has aged well in my opinion. A conclusion that 10 percent of whites in South Carolina are actually black because they have detectable African ancestry strikes me as crazy. But then, hypodescent also strikes me as somewhat crazy, though the rationale which drove it is also eminently understandable (i.e., the exclusion of illegitimate children and maintenance of a racial order). I hold that the racial lines are “blurred” only if you hold to the criteria which arose in the 17th and 18th centuries in the culture of the American South.

There is one aspect of paper and The New York Times article which I think is worth commenting on:

Most Americans with less than 28 percent African-American ancestry say they are white, the researchers found. Above that threshold, people tended to describe themselves as African-American.

Katarzyna Bryc, a 23andMe researcher and co-author of the new study, didn’t want to speculate about why people’s sense of ethnic identity pivots at that point.

I will speculate. The 28 percent proportion is about where African ancestry becomes salient, or not. In a de facto sense today the law of hypodescent applies only those who have visible African ancestry. In the United States these individuals are classified as black, no matter the preponderance of their lineage. A good example here is Rashida Jones, the daughter of Quincy Jones and Peggy Lipton. Quincy Jones has had some genetic analysis done, and he is about 2/3 African and 1/3 European. The expected value then for Rashida Jones is that she is 1/3 African in ancestry, though that may vary up or down a bit (her mother is an Ashkenazi Jew). Rashida Jones regularly plays white characters in film and television, and she does so because African features are not very evident in her. In contrast, her sister Kidada is just a bit more African in her features, and profiles of them growing up have indicated that while Rashida identified with her Jewish side (and still does), Kidada felt more black. In contrast, people who are 1/4th Asian, such as Keanu Reeves, are not subject to hypodescent in the United States, because Asian features are not as salient to white and black Americans, and white supremacy in the American South was generally aimed at blacks (my friend David Boxenhorn, who is Ashkenazi Jewish, finds it amusing that both my children have lighter eyes than any of his children).

Geetali Norah Jones Shankar

Geetali Norah Jones Shankar

But, with the rise in intermarriage and a clearly mixed-race Latino population the lines between the races will become blurred genetically more and more. A substantial number of American children today are multiracial, and that fraction looks to increase. If 23andMe did a survey of American genetics 25 years from now I’d be much more amenable to the interpretation that the media is putting on this survey. In one generation the world of the Baby Boomers, American, black and white, will be gone. With all that being said, I think it is highly likely that many people with known non-white ancestry (e.g., 1/4th Japanese, as a blonde haired and blue eyed friend of mine is) are going to identify as white. That means that to be “white” in the United States will be much more in keeping with the norm in Latin America, where a generally European appearance and preponderant ancestry are sufficient. And, it also means that race and racism will continue to be features of American life, just as they are in Latin America. Just differently.

Related: Steve says many of the same things.

 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity, Science • Tags: Hypodescent 
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  1. A good example of a person with African ancestry but below the 28% white/black threshold is actress Rebecca Hall. She says that she is part black (she can’t be more than ~15% ) but she does not look black at all, seems to identify fully as white and obviously plays white characters.

    Other examples like this are: Troian Bellisario, Slash (of Guns and Roses), Gabrielle Reece (who is blonde and blue eyed), and Jessica Szohr – all of whom look white and live pretty much as whites.

    I have always maintained that the color-line in the United States will switch from being black/white to being black/non-black.

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    • Replies: @Andrew
    The current narrative from the left is that you are either white (oppressor) or not white (oppressed). I think that this will remain an important element of racial identity in the foreseeable future. Although there is also a process by which groups become effectively white, Jewish people have mostly reached this point and Asian, particularly North Asian people, are well on the way.
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  2. Rashida Jones character in “The Office” has an Italian last name, so I assume she was playing an Italian American.

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  3. RE: Rashida and Kidada Jones,

    Yeah, it’s quite interesting how the slight difference in their phenotypes has had so much influence on their personal and social identities:

    KIDADA: I was kicked out of Buckley in second grade for behavior problems. I didn’t want my mother to come to my new school. If kids saw her, it would be: “your mom’s white!” I told Mom she couldn’t pick me up; she had to wait down the street in her car. Did Rashida have that problem? No! She passed for white.

    RASHIDA: “Passed”?! I had no control over how I looked. This is my natural hair, these are my natural eyes! I’ve never tried to be anything that I’m not. Today I feel guilty, knowing that because of the way our genes tumbled out, Kidada had to go through pain I didn’t have to endure. Loving her so much, I’m sad that I’ll never share that experience with her.

    RASHIDA: But it was different with our grandparents. Our dad’s father died before we were born. We didn’t see our dad’s mother often. I felt comfortable with Mommy’s parents, who’d come to love my dad like a son. Kidada wasn’t so comfortable with them. I felt Jewish; Kidada didn’t.

    KIDADA: I knew Mommy’s parents were upset at first when she married a black man, and though they did the best they could, I picked up on what I thought was their subtle disapproval of me. Mommy says they loved me, but I felt estranged from them.

    PEGGY: Kidada never wanted to be white. She spoke with a little…twist in her language. She had ‘tude. Rashida spoke more primly, and her identity touched all bases. She’d announce, “I’m going to be the first female, black, Jewish president of the U.S.!”

    KIDADA: When I was 11, a white girlfriend and I were going to meet up with these boys she knew. I’d told her, because I wanted to be accepted, “Tell them I’m tan.” When we met them, the one she was setting me up with said, “You didn’t tell me she was black.” That’s When I started defining myself as black, period. Why fight it? Everyone wanted to put me in a box. On passports, at doctor’s offices, when I changed schools, there were boxes to check: Caucasian, Black, Hispanic, Asian. I don’t mean any dishonor to my mother–who is the most wonderful mother in the world, and we are so alike–but: I am black. Rashida answers questions about “what” she is differently. She uses all the adjectives: black, white, Jewish.

    http://bossip.com/623483/rashida-jones-sister-kidada-agrees-she-passed-for-white-but-did-the-mean-girls-at-harvard-scare-her-away-from-dating-black-men-forever/

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    • Replies: @The Practical Conservative
    The punchline is of course that Kidada looks quite as pale as her sister now that she's aging (40 or so). This is actually pretty common for blackfolk, well known among Southern folks. Being pale and whitish looking doesn't mean the person was that light as a child or even 20something. The lightening tends to start in the 30s or 40s, so Kidada's paler appearance (as seen on wikipedia) is right on schedule.
  4. “A conclusion that 10 percent of whites in South Carolina are actually black because they have detectable African ancestry strikes me as crazy.”

    If 10 percent of Whites in South Carolina are Black, than the vast majority of Mexican Americans in the U.S are Black because the average Mexican in the U.S has 6 percent Sub Saharan African admixture which is more than the 1 percent Sub Saharan African admixture found among the 10 percent of Whites in South Carolina.

    Funny that when the topic of the one drop rule pops up, the U.S’s Latin American population are never included in the discussion. The one drop rule conversation is always limited to just Gringos and African Americans.

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  5. Hypodescent may use the neurobiology of disgust and phobia of contamination that has the obvious advantage of avoiding infectious disease. The New Orleans neighborhood of Storeyville (recent book in reviewed in NYT) tolerated racially mixed sexual arrangements until WW I. The quadroon balls antedated the Louisiana purchase. And French Creole cuisine is varied and spicy.

    The opposite of hypodescent is the eagnerness to claim an iconic historical figure as ancestor. In my family it’s Robert E. Lee. In early 19th Cent Alabama two brothers married sisters named Lee. Most of the files on ancestry.com proudly claim a connection with the family of the Northern Neck that produced the General. But that family is well documented and the relevant ancestors are missing. And multiple DNA tests from both families show distinct Y chromosome markers. Along the way, a gravestone has been changed and an entry in a family bible crudely altered. The gravestone may have been a sincere mistake, but the bible defacement is from the mid 20th Cent.

    One irony is that the Lee family in question produced the novelist Harper Lee. I like to boast that my most famous relative is Atticus Finch. When people point out that Atticus is fictional, I can politely observe that this is true of much genealogical data.

    As it happens, I’m related to Robert E through another connection, the Randolph family. I’m not generally interested in military history, but I’ve dutifully read about his conduct of the war, and there’s nuance and compexities of character that are rarely discussed. Although there’s much to admire, the adulation among ignorant Southerners is essentially a cult. There’s a retired officer of intelligence who runs a blog, and when I used the word “cult” in this connection, he informed me that I had “abused his hospitality” and was banished from his premises. Look away.

    The two principles come into conflict with Pocahontas. Iconic but not quite um … pure. She left one grandchild, who was the first wife of Robert Bolling. Children of that marriage are the “Red Bollings”. His second marriage produced the “White Bollings”. Genealogists came up with a third marriage, but the dates and births of children overlapped and conflicted with accepted facts. These came to be known as the “Blue Bollings”, because they “came out of the blue”. There’s an example in my family as well. A Red Bolling married into a Fleming family, but not my line. Someone misstated the facts to get her into my ancestry, which puts people to the trouble of untangling the already incomplete records.

    Mrs. Woodrow Wilson was a Red Bolling, and when the Virginia legislature passed a miscegenation statute, she and he relatives supported a provision that Native American ancestors beyond the third generation were legally white. Talk about having it both days.

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  6. @Gaius Baltar
    A good example of a person with African ancestry but below the 28% white/black threshold is actress Rebecca Hall. She says that she is part black (she can't be more than ~15% ) but she does not look black at all, seems to identify fully as white and obviously plays white characters.

    Other examples like this are: Troian Bellisario, Slash (of Guns and Roses), Gabrielle Reece (who is blonde and blue eyed), and Jessica Szohr - all of whom look white and live pretty much as whites.

    I have always maintained that the color-line in the United States will switch from being black/white to being black/non-black.

    The current narrative from the left is that you are either white (oppressor) or not white (oppressed). I think that this will remain an important element of racial identity in the foreseeable future. Although there is also a process by which groups become effectively white, Jewish people have mostly reached this point and Asian, particularly North Asian people, are well on the way.

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    • Replies: @CupOfCanada
    The white/non-white ("people of colour") distinction makes sense from a societal standpoint, as unfortunately it is one's outward appearance that determines in large part the societal attitudes with respect to race that are applied to you. And yah, I definitely agree that there's a sliding scale of "whiteness" that changes over time.

    I don't think it should surprise anyone here that the cultural ideas of "race" don't correspond well to any sort of deeper biological reality (as I feel Razib's post points out quite well).

    Nor do I think it should be surprising that a system often intended to create and ordered hierarchy between groups of people has a tough time dealing with the in-between cases.
  7. I agree that the “white” category will expand but there will be back-pressure against official white identification when there are affirmative action and political advantages to not being white. We currently have a segment of American academia and media that’s cheering the idea of an America that will soon not be majority white — if you exclude Hispanics who otherwise identify as white and consider people like Ricardo Montalban non-white even though he is of wholly Spanish ancestry. There are a lot of different identity agendas at work here.

    Another complicating issue is that race is also used as a proxy to identify culture, and I expect that to blur more, too. And yet one more complicating factor will be how sensitive people remain or become to various racial appearance markers, especially as more Asians (both East and South) enter the mix and bring their own biases about what appearance traits mean into the culture.

    There is also the curiosity of the idea of NAM (Non-Asian Minority) among the “Human Bio-Diversity” crowd that groups white and Asian together in cultural grounds and the idea that IQ differences are inherited and Asuans even outperform whites by that measure. For those who view racial appearance as a proxy for intelligence and potential social status and believe them largely genetic (I don’t), it’s difficult to perceive being Asian as a liability in America and I’ve seen examples of Asians considering themselves the apex race where whiteness is considered a liability and a step down. And I think that’s a lot of what it boils down to — looking for clues about social status in appearance.

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    • Replies: @Simon in London
    "I’ve seen examples of Asians considering themselves the apex race where whiteness is considered a liability and a step down."

    This seems pretty rare* among east-Asians, much rarer than you'd expect if IQ data was well known and taken seriously. I think people go much more by current civilisational status/power than by group IQ or similar data (wealth, income, crime rate, etc). If I'm right then if/when China becomes the most powerful country, Chinese-Americans will soon see east-Asians as the master race in a way they rarely do now.

    *Is it more common in Hawaii, where Japanse-Americans dominate Euro-Americans?

  8. Vis-a-vis hypodescent and theories of hybrid breakdown it is interesting to note (or maybe not, maybe you’re too busy with real science) that one of the most widely accepted tenets of Chinese folk-biology is that the children of European/East Asian pairings benefit from something like hybrid vigor. I don’t know what Chinese people think happens when people from other populations mix.

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    • Replies: @Sandgroper
    Whenever my half Chinese daughter gets a bad dose of the hay fever she inherited from me, she says "Thanks for the hybrid vigour, Dad." Hybrid vigour was the self-esteem repair kit I carried around for her when she was a kid. Now, mention of it is just likely to get her irritated - she knows more about genes now than I ever will.

    Um - anyone who talks about "what Chinese people think" doesn't really get it. There is no "hive mind". Anecdotally, a lot of Chinese might consider European/Chinese mixes to be physically attractive, but they are simply noticing the ones who happen to be physically attractive and not noticing the ones who are not. They are also probably chalking up 'attractiveness' points for paler skin, lack of or reduction in epicanthic eye folds, less coarse hair and modification of other physical traits that they might consider unattractive among themselves. But if the hybrid in question is also fat and pug-ugly, or has some unfortunate mosaic of traits, like red hair, green eyes, pronounced epicanthic eye folds and sallow skin, then the "beautiful hybrid" thing just doesn't come up in conversation, although I know one hybrid who has exactly that combination of traits who I think is very beautiful, in an almost alien-looking way.

    I have known very few non-European hybrids with Chinese - one of my daughter's friends had a Persian grandmother. She is considered an attractive girl because erm she's attractive. She has to tell everyone about the Persian grandmother because otherwise everybody always just assumes she's ordinary common-or-garden Chinese. Chinese/South Asian hybrids are around - not that common, but it happens. If they are pretty girls, then people remark on the fact that they are pretty girls. Exotic-looking attractive girls who are fluent in Chinese language will always have some novelty value, so they tend to get jobs like TV newsreader and such.

    But there is an historical side-note to this - in the past, say during the 19th and early 20th Centuries, or earlier than that in Macau, who were the people most likely to be fluently bilingual or trilingual and biliterate in English (or Portuguese) and Chinese languages, and therefore best placed to benefit financially from being a go-between in commercial dealings between Chinese and Europeans? Why, the hybrids, of course. Getting rich that way could be construed to derive from something akin to hybrid vigour. And, historically, hybrids did undertake the role of "compradore" in places like Hong Kong, and profited handsomely from it. In Macau, this happened so early and so much that it has resulted in a clear sub-population of Maccanese who pretty much took over the running of the civil service there, along with developing their own sub-culture and distinctive cuisine which is not 'fusion', it's something different.

    These days, I see so many white Americans speaking Mandarin that it is almost commonplace, and universities in the first tier northern Chinese cities are positively crawling with white American students, but I don't see them reading or writing Chinese - that is much more rare.

  9. “The current narrative from the left is that you are either white (oppressor) or not white (oppressed).”

    I think that’s an oversimplification. There has long been awareness in Race Studies and Sociology that race is socially constructed, for example:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybridity

    You also touch on another prominent theory, where some races and ethnicities have ‘become’ white:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiteness_studies

    I think with the oppressor vs. oppressed division you’re referring to racial politics, where both some whites and blacks (for example) have found advantages from emphasizing differences and pushing the narrative of clear racial categories. A classic example is the trend in American politics where waves of immigrant groups such as Irish and Italians formed political blocks and gained power over their community. In that case a strong racial/ethnic identity results in political power and in my understanding Whiteness studies scholars see that as an initial phase, which is followed by assimilation (America as a ‘melting pot’).

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  10. There are ‘pure’ Whites in Latin America, but they tend not to be descendants of the Spanish or Portuguese but rather more recent immigrants, like Italians in Argentina and Brazil or Germans in the latter country (ex. Gisele Bundchen). I at one time was engaged to a man born in Peru to a mother of [Northern] Italian descent and father of German origin It’s strange to think that in the eyes of some, he would qualify as a minority before I would, even though Southern Italy, where my father was born, was much poorer than (and much looked down upon) by Northern Italy. N.B., I don’t consider Italians, either Northern or Southern, ‘oppressed minorities; I just think it’s ironic that my ex-fiance could play the race card and I couldn’t.

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  11. “I agree that the “white” category will expand”

    I disagree. Look at how many White Conservatives were angry when the liberal media kept referring to the Triracial George Zimmerman as “White”.

    Even White Conservatives who claim to be color blind did not agree with George Zimmerman being racially described as “White”.

    White America is not ready to extend it’s racial membership to people who do not look like any of the Ellis Island or Mayflower immigrants.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    I disagree. Look at how many White Conservatives were angry when the liberal media kept referring to the Triracial George Zimmerman as “White”.
     
    I tend to think that that was more about outrage over MSM hypocrisy. Under normal circumstances (i.e., circumstances not involving the narrative regarding the "victimization" of Black youth), MSM outlets would never have referred to Zimmerman as a "White Hispanic."
    , @AnonNJ
    Most of the conservatives talking about George Zimmerman as a "white Hispanic" were mocking the mainstream media's conflicting narratives that requires George Zimmerman to be white (so him shooting Treyvon Martin could be depicted as white racism) where they would otherwise insist he was not white. And what you miss is that many of the Ellis Island immigrants didn't look like the Mayflower immigrants and there was a lot of ethnic division and distinction that's no longer relevant to most white Americans because the darker-skinned, darker-haired, darker-eyed, and largely Catholic immigrants from the Mediterranean assimilated and the distinction became largely irrelevant to most people. And I think that had Hispanics not been carved out into a distinct census identity (or had Mediterranean whites been carved out into a separate racial category in the early 20th Century), history may have played out differently, since plenty of Hispanics were being counted as "white" and marrying without the controversy seen in marriage across other racial and ethnic lines.
    , @Andrew
    Well this "White Conservative" objected to Zimmerman being labelled white not out of some silly Purity Politics but because Zimmerman himself has never identified as white. Plus the media used Photoshop to make his skin lighter when they were setting up the witch hunt. Finally, the fact that his great grandfather was black only served to make the whole witch hunt even more absurd.
  12. @ K.
    looking at those Freedman videos of new borns I would any mix of east asians with south asians/europeans/africans etc. would ACTUALLY result in babies which are more “energetic” than pure east asian babies.

    concerning the article I can just report from my home country germany. Here a large part of white german women choose their partners on basis of racial criteria, they choose specifically westafrican men. That will much likely result in a quite interesting genetic match up of germans in, say, year 2100. Germans by that time will have a huge share of westafrican ancestry, they will still have a very small share of eastafrican, south asian and east asian ancestry. But the mtDNA will still be very middle-european. So by that time the ancestral pattern might be similar to the situation in Latin America, only being black in Germany will be similar to being white in Latin America, although the history which lead to the situation will be very different

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    • Replies: @BurplesonAFB
    Unlikely, although I'd be interested to read the report. I'm guessing west african german babies are an extreme minority and that these women with high preferences for novelty are in essence boiling off, and their children will end up in the ethnic fringe, not the german core.
  13. “There are ‘pure’ Whites in Latin America, but they tend not to be descendants of the Spanish or Portuguese but rather more recent immigrants, like Italians in Argentina and Brazil or Germans in the latter country (ex. Gisele Bundchen).”

    If you meet a White Uruguayan, White Argentinean, or White Brazilian with a German, Italian, or Eastern European last name, there is a much higher chance she or he will have zero Sub Saharan African or Amerindian admixture in their DNA.

    The reason I mentioned Eastern European is because there were Polish immigrants both Gentile and Jew who immigrated to Brazil and Argentina.

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    • Replies: @Emilia
    'If you meet a White Uruguayan, White Argentinean, or White Brazilian with a German, Italian, or Eastern European last name, there is a much higher chance she or he will have zero Sub Saharan African or Amerindian admixture in their DNA.'

    With an exception: people born to European immigrant (i.e. White) fathers and Latin American
    (usually mixed race) mothers. Although the sex ratio was much more balanced among later European immigrants than among the original Portuguese and Spanish in South and Central America, there was still an excess of men. So some immigrant European men found wives among local women. Still, in my personal - and admittedly anecdotal - experience, I have found that even in Latin America, if White immigrant families marry outside their specific ethnic group, they often marry members of other European communities. as was the case with my ex-fiance's parents.

    Yes, I know Poles and Jews (or people who fall in both categories!) migrated to Latin America. Again in my personal experience, I knew a boy whose father was Polish (Catholic) and whose mother was Mexican. And in Toronto where I live, one of the aspiring town councillors was a Guatemalan Jew, so in a sense he straddled the two communities. Another ethnic group in Latin America was the Croatians, even if they weren't as numerous as, say, the Italians and Germans.
  14. @Erik Sieven
    @ K.
    looking at those Freedman videos of new borns I would any mix of east asians with south asians/europeans/africans etc. would ACTUALLY result in babies which are more "energetic" than pure east asian babies.

    concerning the article I can just report from my home country germany. Here a large part of white german women choose their partners on basis of racial criteria, they choose specifically westafrican men. That will much likely result in a quite interesting genetic match up of germans in, say, year 2100. Germans by that time will have a huge share of westafrican ancestry, they will still have a very small share of eastafrican, south asian and east asian ancestry. But the mtDNA will still be very middle-european. So by that time the ancestral pattern might be similar to the situation in Latin America, only being black in Germany will be similar to being white in Latin America, although the history which lead to the situation will be very different

    Unlikely, although I’d be interested to read the report. I’m guessing west african german babies are an extreme minority and that these women with high preferences for novelty are in essence boiling off, and their children will end up in the ethnic fringe, not the german core.

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    • Replies: @Numinous
    Yeah, it looks like such pairings have been occurring for a while, even in Nazi Germany.
  15. @K.
    Vis-a-vis hypodescent and theories of hybrid breakdown it is interesting to note (or maybe not, maybe you're too busy with real science) that one of the most widely accepted tenets of Chinese folk-biology is that the children of European/East Asian pairings benefit from something like hybrid vigor. I don't know what Chinese people think happens when people from other populations mix.

    Whenever my half Chinese daughter gets a bad dose of the hay fever she inherited from me, she says “Thanks for the hybrid vigour, Dad.” Hybrid vigour was the self-esteem repair kit I carried around for her when she was a kid. Now, mention of it is just likely to get her irritated – she knows more about genes now than I ever will.

    Um – anyone who talks about “what Chinese people think” doesn’t really get it. There is no “hive mind”. Anecdotally, a lot of Chinese might consider European/Chinese mixes to be physically attractive, but they are simply noticing the ones who happen to be physically attractive and not noticing the ones who are not. They are also probably chalking up ‘attractiveness’ points for paler skin, lack of or reduction in epicanthic eye folds, less coarse hair and modification of other physical traits that they might consider unattractive among themselves. But if the hybrid in question is also fat and pug-ugly, or has some unfortunate mosaic of traits, like red hair, green eyes, pronounced epicanthic eye folds and sallow skin, then the “beautiful hybrid” thing just doesn’t come up in conversation, although I know one hybrid who has exactly that combination of traits who I think is very beautiful, in an almost alien-looking way.

    I have known very few non-European hybrids with Chinese – one of my daughter’s friends had a Persian grandmother. She is considered an attractive girl because erm she’s attractive. She has to tell everyone about the Persian grandmother because otherwise everybody always just assumes she’s ordinary common-or-garden Chinese. Chinese/South Asian hybrids are around – not that common, but it happens. If they are pretty girls, then people remark on the fact that they are pretty girls. Exotic-looking attractive girls who are fluent in Chinese language will always have some novelty value, so they tend to get jobs like TV newsreader and such.

    But there is an historical side-note to this – in the past, say during the 19th and early 20th Centuries, or earlier than that in Macau, who were the people most likely to be fluently bilingual or trilingual and biliterate in English (or Portuguese) and Chinese languages, and therefore best placed to benefit financially from being a go-between in commercial dealings between Chinese and Europeans? Why, the hybrids, of course. Getting rich that way could be construed to derive from something akin to hybrid vigour. And, historically, hybrids did undertake the role of “compradore” in places like Hong Kong, and profited handsomely from it. In Macau, this happened so early and so much that it has resulted in a clear sub-population of Maccanese who pretty much took over the running of the civil service there, along with developing their own sub-culture and distinctive cuisine which is not ‘fusion’, it’s something different.

    These days, I see so many white Americans speaking Mandarin that it is almost commonplace, and universities in the first tier northern Chinese cities are positively crawling with white American students, but I don’t see them reading or writing Chinese – that is much more rare.

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    • Replies: @anon
    Don't kid a Calif native about there being no hive mind. I am white and half my family is fob and ABC by marriage.
  16. @BurplesonAFB
    Unlikely, although I'd be interested to read the report. I'm guessing west african german babies are an extreme minority and that these women with high preferences for novelty are in essence boiling off, and their children will end up in the ethnic fringe, not the german core.

    Yeah, it looks like such pairings have been occurring for a while, even in Nazi Germany.

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    • Replies: @SFG
    Weren't they called 'Rhineland Bastards' and sterilized?
  17. re: speculation on germany. don’t talk about it anymore until there’s real data.

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  18. @Jefferson
    "There are ‘pure’ Whites in Latin America, but they tend not to be descendants of the Spanish or Portuguese but rather more recent immigrants, like Italians in Argentina and Brazil or Germans in the latter country (ex. Gisele Bundchen)."

    If you meet a White Uruguayan, White Argentinean, or White Brazilian with a German, Italian, or Eastern European last name, there is a much higher chance she or he will have zero Sub Saharan African or Amerindian admixture in their DNA.

    The reason I mentioned Eastern European is because there were Polish immigrants both Gentile and Jew who immigrated to Brazil and Argentina.

    ‘If you meet a White Uruguayan, White Argentinean, or White Brazilian with a German, Italian, or Eastern European last name, there is a much higher chance she or he will have zero Sub Saharan African or Amerindian admixture in their DNA.’

    With an exception: people born to European immigrant (i.e. White) fathers and Latin American
    (usually mixed race) mothers. Although the sex ratio was much more balanced among later European immigrants than among the original Portuguese and Spanish in South and Central America, there was still an excess of men. So some immigrant European men found wives among local women. Still, in my personal – and admittedly anecdotal – experience, I have found that even in Latin America, if White immigrant families marry outside their specific ethnic group, they often marry members of other European communities. as was the case with my ex-fiance’s parents.

    Yes, I know Poles and Jews (or people who fall in both categories!) migrated to Latin America. Again in my personal experience, I knew a boy whose father was Polish (Catholic) and whose mother was Mexican. And in Toronto where I live, one of the aspiring town councillors was a Guatemalan Jew, so in a sense he straddled the two communities. Another ethnic group in Latin America was the Croatians, even if they weren’t as numerous as, say, the Italians and Germans.

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  19. @syonredux
    RE: Rashida and Kidada Jones,

    Yeah, it's quite interesting how the slight difference in their phenotypes has had so much influence on their personal and social identities:

    KIDADA: I was kicked out of Buckley in second grade for behavior problems. I didn’t want my mother to come to my new school. If kids saw her, it would be: “your mom’s white!” I told Mom she couldn’t pick me up; she had to wait down the street in her car. Did Rashida have that problem? No! She passed for white.

    RASHIDA: “Passed”?! I had no control over how I looked. This is my natural hair, these are my natural eyes! I’ve never tried to be anything that I’m not. Today I feel guilty, knowing that because of the way our genes tumbled out, Kidada had to go through pain I didn’t have to endure. Loving her so much, I’m sad that I’ll never share that experience with her.
     

    RASHIDA: But it was different with our grandparents. Our dad’s father died before we were born. We didn’t see our dad’s mother often. I felt comfortable with Mommy’s parents, who’d come to love my dad like a son. Kidada wasn’t so comfortable with them. I felt Jewish; Kidada didn’t.

    KIDADA: I knew Mommy’s parents were upset at first when she married a black man, and though they did the best they could, I picked up on what I thought was their subtle disapproval of me. Mommy says they loved me, but I felt estranged from them.
     

    PEGGY: Kidada never wanted to be white. She spoke with a little…twist in her language. She had ‘tude. Rashida spoke more primly, and her identity touched all bases. She’d announce, “I’m going to be the first female, black, Jewish president of the U.S.!”

    KIDADA: When I was 11, a white girlfriend and I were going to meet up with these boys she knew. I’d told her, because I wanted to be accepted, “Tell them I’m tan.” When we met them, the one she was setting me up with said, “You didn’t tell me she was black.” That’s When I started defining myself as black, period. Why fight it? Everyone wanted to put me in a box. On passports, at doctor’s offices, when I changed schools, there were boxes to check: Caucasian, Black, Hispanic, Asian. I don’t mean any dishonor to my mother–who is the most wonderful mother in the world, and we are so alike–but: I am black. Rashida answers questions about “what” she is differently. She uses all the adjectives: black, white, Jewish.
     
    http://bossip.com/623483/rashida-jones-sister-kidada-agrees-she-passed-for-white-but-did-the-mean-girls-at-harvard-scare-her-away-from-dating-black-men-forever/

    The punchline is of course that Kidada looks quite as pale as her sister now that she’s aging (40 or so). This is actually pretty common for blackfolk, well known among Southern folks. Being pale and whitish looking doesn’t mean the person was that light as a child or even 20something. The lightening tends to start in the 30s or 40s, so Kidada’s paler appearance (as seen on wikipedia) is right on schedule.

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  20. @Jefferson
    "I agree that the “white” category will expand"

    I disagree. Look at how many White Conservatives were angry when the liberal media kept referring to the Triracial George Zimmerman as "White".

    Even White Conservatives who claim to be color blind did not agree with George Zimmerman being racially described as "White".

    White America is not ready to extend it's racial membership to people who do not look like any of the Ellis Island or Mayflower immigrants.

    I disagree. Look at how many White Conservatives were angry when the liberal media kept referring to the Triracial George Zimmerman as “White”.

    I tend to think that that was more about outrage over MSM hypocrisy. Under normal circumstances (i.e., circumstances not involving the narrative regarding the “victimization” of Black youth), MSM outlets would never have referred to Zimmerman as a “White Hispanic.”

    Read More
  21. My (blond, blue-eyed) son is around 2% black I believe ((97% white, & 1% east-Asian via Finland). While it would be silly for him not to ID as white in real life, I’d certainly encourage him to list as mixed ancestry if Affirmative Action benefits were available. For his 25% black cousins it would be crazy not to do so.

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  22. Kidada Jones – maybe her mother should have called her Emily and kept her out of the sun? She could have passed for ‘white, I guess’, especially with her sister looking white. But I guess her mother was proud of her daughters’ African ancestry, hence the names.

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  23. @AnonNJ
    I agree that the "white" category will expand but there will be back-pressure against official white identification when there are affirmative action and political advantages to not being white. We currently have a segment of American academia and media that's cheering the idea of an America that will soon not be majority white -- if you exclude Hispanics who otherwise identify as white and consider people like Ricardo Montalban non-white even though he is of wholly Spanish ancestry. There are a lot of different identity agendas at work here.

    Another complicating issue is that race is also used as a proxy to identify culture, and I expect that to blur more, too. And yet one more complicating factor will be how sensitive people remain or become to various racial appearance markers, especially as more Asians (both East and South) enter the mix and bring their own biases about what appearance traits mean into the culture.

    There is also the curiosity of the idea of NAM (Non-Asian Minority) among the "Human Bio-Diversity" crowd that groups white and Asian together in cultural grounds and the idea that IQ differences are inherited and Asuans even outperform whites by that measure. For those who view racial appearance as a proxy for intelligence and potential social status and believe them largely genetic (I don't), it's difficult to perceive being Asian as a liability in America and I've seen examples of Asians considering themselves the apex race where whiteness is considered a liability and a step down. And I think that's a lot of what it boils down to -- looking for clues about social status in appearance.

    “I’ve seen examples of Asians considering themselves the apex race where whiteness is considered a liability and a step down.”

    This seems pretty rare* among east-Asians, much rarer than you’d expect if IQ data was well known and taken seriously. I think people go much more by current civilisational status/power than by group IQ or similar data (wealth, income, crime rate, etc). If I’m right then if/when China becomes the most powerful country, Chinese-Americans will soon see east-Asians as the master race in a way they rarely do now.

    *Is it more common in Hawaii, where Japanse-Americans dominate Euro-Americans?

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    • Replies: @AnonNJ
    There are several factors at work that can cause people to dislike mixed marriages, including how important their cultural identity is, how strongly their social circle and social status converges with their particular cultural identity, and how they view the prospects of various cultures and that's on top of a vague general preference I think many people have to want their children and grandchildren to look something like them and share their culture (see, for example, Lowri Turner's article about her mixed-heritage baby feeling alien to her because the baby doesn't ethnically look at all like her). But ask an Asian "Tiger Mother" who drives her children to get straight-As and send their kids to academic prep classes after school how they'd feel about their son or daughter marrying a typical American, and I doubt you'll find a lot of enthusiasm for the idea or sentiments that American culture is just as good as Asian culture. See the following quote from this article about white flight from Asian-dominated schools:

    At Cupertino's top schools, administrators, parents and students say white students end up in the stereotyped role often applied to other minority groups: the underachievers. In one 9th-grade algebra class, Lynbrook's lowest-level math class, the students are an eclectic mix of whites, Asians and other racial and ethnic groups.

    "Take a good look," whispered Steve Rowley, superintendent of the Fremont Union High School District, which covers the city of Cupertino as well as portions of other neighboring cities. "This doesn't look like the other classes we're going to."

    On the second floor, in advanced-placement chemistry, only a couple of the 32 students are white and the rest are Asian. Some white parents, and even some students, say they suspect teachers don't take white kids as seriously as Asians.

    "Many of my Asian friends were convinced that if you were Asian, you had to confirm you were smart. If you were white, you had to prove it," says Arar Han, a Monta Vista graduate who recently co-edited "Asian American X," a book of coming-of-age essays by young Asian-Americans.

    Ms. Gatley, the Monta Vista PTA president, is more blunt: "White kids are thought of as the dumb kids," she says.
     
  24. @Numinous
    Yeah, it looks like such pairings have been occurring for a while, even in Nazi Germany.

    Weren’t they called ‘Rhineland Bastards’ and sterilized?

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  25. Until there is only one definition there will be nothing but trouble – Human.

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  26. “white supremacy in the American South was generally aimed at blacks ”

    My understanding is ante bellum Southern propagandists claimed the world was divided into superior and inferior races. Superior races included Europeans, East Asians, and South Asians. Their response to British criticism about slavery was that the treatment of South and East Asian Coolies, working them until they died, was the true crime against humanity.

    Having made peace with American Indians while the North was still warring with them I think the ante bellum South put Amerindians in the superior class on a case by case basis.

    An odd tale of an upper class African freed in the US due to his ability to write Arabic:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayuba_Suleiman_Diallo

    Siamese twins Chang and Eng, and their descendants, have no problems in the antebellum south.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_and_Eng_Bunker

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    • Replies: @Honorary Thief
    I would be surprised if there was much pre-1900 propaganda describing anything but whites as a superior race. There was not much contact between antebellum Southerners and South or East Asians and intelligence testing hadn't been invented yet. It seems more likely they would have just lumped all the "coloreds" in together as subhuman/savages.
  27. I will speculate. The 28 percent proportion is about where African ancestry becomes salient, or not.

    Wouldn’t it be likely to be because on average they have three White grandparents? For all that the expected value of European ancestry for a person with three White grandparents and one African American grandparent would be, like, 22% African. I imagine it would feel inherently ridiculous to refer to oneself as Black when one of your parents is White and the other is biracial.

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  28. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Big taboo against whites marrying blacks continues in spite of the pc culture. Don’t see that changing.

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  29. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Sandgroper
    Whenever my half Chinese daughter gets a bad dose of the hay fever she inherited from me, she says "Thanks for the hybrid vigour, Dad." Hybrid vigour was the self-esteem repair kit I carried around for her when she was a kid. Now, mention of it is just likely to get her irritated - she knows more about genes now than I ever will.

    Um - anyone who talks about "what Chinese people think" doesn't really get it. There is no "hive mind". Anecdotally, a lot of Chinese might consider European/Chinese mixes to be physically attractive, but they are simply noticing the ones who happen to be physically attractive and not noticing the ones who are not. They are also probably chalking up 'attractiveness' points for paler skin, lack of or reduction in epicanthic eye folds, less coarse hair and modification of other physical traits that they might consider unattractive among themselves. But if the hybrid in question is also fat and pug-ugly, or has some unfortunate mosaic of traits, like red hair, green eyes, pronounced epicanthic eye folds and sallow skin, then the "beautiful hybrid" thing just doesn't come up in conversation, although I know one hybrid who has exactly that combination of traits who I think is very beautiful, in an almost alien-looking way.

    I have known very few non-European hybrids with Chinese - one of my daughter's friends had a Persian grandmother. She is considered an attractive girl because erm she's attractive. She has to tell everyone about the Persian grandmother because otherwise everybody always just assumes she's ordinary common-or-garden Chinese. Chinese/South Asian hybrids are around - not that common, but it happens. If they are pretty girls, then people remark on the fact that they are pretty girls. Exotic-looking attractive girls who are fluent in Chinese language will always have some novelty value, so they tend to get jobs like TV newsreader and such.

    But there is an historical side-note to this - in the past, say during the 19th and early 20th Centuries, or earlier than that in Macau, who were the people most likely to be fluently bilingual or trilingual and biliterate in English (or Portuguese) and Chinese languages, and therefore best placed to benefit financially from being a go-between in commercial dealings between Chinese and Europeans? Why, the hybrids, of course. Getting rich that way could be construed to derive from something akin to hybrid vigour. And, historically, hybrids did undertake the role of "compradore" in places like Hong Kong, and profited handsomely from it. In Macau, this happened so early and so much that it has resulted in a clear sub-population of Maccanese who pretty much took over the running of the civil service there, along with developing their own sub-culture and distinctive cuisine which is not 'fusion', it's something different.

    These days, I see so many white Americans speaking Mandarin that it is almost commonplace, and universities in the first tier northern Chinese cities are positively crawling with white American students, but I don't see them reading or writing Chinese - that is much more rare.

    Don’t kid a Calif native about there being no hive mind. I am white and half my family is fob and ABC by marriage.

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  30. @george
    "white supremacy in the American South was generally aimed at blacks "

    My understanding is ante bellum Southern propagandists claimed the world was divided into superior and inferior races. Superior races included Europeans, East Asians, and South Asians. Their response to British criticism about slavery was that the treatment of South and East Asian Coolies, working them until they died, was the true crime against humanity.

    Having made peace with American Indians while the North was still warring with them I think the ante bellum South put Amerindians in the superior class on a case by case basis.

    An odd tale of an upper class African freed in the US due to his ability to write Arabic:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayuba_Suleiman_Diallo

    Siamese twins Chang and Eng, and their descendants, have no problems in the antebellum south.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang_and_Eng_Bunker

    I would be surprised if there was much pre-1900 propaganda describing anything but whites as a superior race. There was not much contact between antebellum Southerners and South or East Asians and intelligence testing hadn’t been invented yet. It seems more likely they would have just lumped all the “coloreds” in together as subhuman/savages.

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    • Replies: @AnonNJ
    There was substantial anti-Chinese racism in the American West. What people today find difficult to imagine given that our national narrative (embodied on the Statue of Liberty) that immigration is nothing but good is that people living in precarious economic situations or at a subsistence level viewed the inflow of outsiders as competition for limited resources. Of course today, the threat is that companies will simply move their entire operation elsewhere, so if they can't get immigrants in America to do the work Americans won't do without getting paid much more, they'll simply move the job to someplace else where the people will work cheaper. So even if the US were to limit immigration more tightly to keep out the people being let in on H-1B visas or Mexican migrant workers, for example, companies can now simply outsource their IT work to Asia or try to grow crops in Mexico, instead.
  31. If you run a computer model with varying rates of endogamy preference, people with low endogamy preference (which closely tracks lack of social isolation) quickly forms a Latino-like Mestizo group that probably generates its own identity, while those who have a strong endogamy preference swiftly become the dominant share of the “pure type” source populations.

    I think that this is likely to be the case in the U.S. in a generation or two. A big share of the population will be “mutts” and the remaining single race populations will be mostly those who deliberately design their lives to live in monoracial populations.

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  32. Do a GIS for model Britany Nola. Warning: many of the images will be NSFW. She has a black father and a white mother and identifies as biracial, but on a lot of black-oriented message boards there’s frequent discussion about whether her “father” is actually her father and a seeming reluctance to accept her even as biracial.

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    • Replies: @prosa123
    If Britany Nola is biracial then I'm a Melanesian/Eskimo hybrid. Even if you discount her obviously bleached hair, there is nothing African in her features or coloration.
  33. prosa123 [AKA "Peter"] says: • Website     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Mike P
    Do a GIS for model Britany Nola. Warning: many of the images will be NSFW. She has a black father and a white mother and identifies as biracial, but on a lot of black-oriented message boards there's frequent discussion about whether her "father" is actually her father and a seeming reluctance to accept her even as biracial.

    If Britany Nola is biracial then I’m a Melanesian/Eskimo hybrid. Even if you discount her obviously bleached hair, there is nothing African in her features or coloration.

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  34. “I tend to think that that was more about outrage over MSM hypocrisy. Under normal circumstances (i.e., circumstances not involving the narrative regarding the “victimization” of Black youth), MSM outlets would never have referred to Zimmerman as a “White Hispanic.”

    Naw it was a straight up phenotype thing. White Conservatives just do not think George Zimmerman looks White in appearance.

    Do you think White Conservatives would be bitching about Frankie Muniz being labeled as White by the media if he killed a Black yoof ?

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Naw it was a straight up phenotype thing. White Conservatives just do not think George Zimmerman looks White in appearance.
     
    Conservatives were commenting on the fact that the Liberal press was calling Zimmerman a "White Hispanic" for blatantly strategic reasons. After all, "White Hispanic" is a locution that the Liberal media almost never employ.When, for example, have they used it for Cameron Diaz or Ricardo Montalban (people who actually are "White Hispanics")?

    Do you think White Conservatives would be bitching about Frankie Muniz being labeled as White by the media if he killed a Black yoof ?
     
    The Liberal media virtually never mention Muniz's Hispanic background. It doesn't fit the narrative.And, had he been the one who shot Zimmerman, they would have simply called him "White."
  35. @Jefferson
    "I agree that the “white” category will expand"

    I disagree. Look at how many White Conservatives were angry when the liberal media kept referring to the Triracial George Zimmerman as "White".

    Even White Conservatives who claim to be color blind did not agree with George Zimmerman being racially described as "White".

    White America is not ready to extend it's racial membership to people who do not look like any of the Ellis Island or Mayflower immigrants.

    Most of the conservatives talking about George Zimmerman as a “white Hispanic” were mocking the mainstream media’s conflicting narratives that requires George Zimmerman to be white (so him shooting Treyvon Martin could be depicted as white racism) where they would otherwise insist he was not white. And what you miss is that many of the Ellis Island immigrants didn’t look like the Mayflower immigrants and there was a lot of ethnic division and distinction that’s no longer relevant to most white Americans because the darker-skinned, darker-haired, darker-eyed, and largely Catholic immigrants from the Mediterranean assimilated and the distinction became largely irrelevant to most people. And I think that had Hispanics not been carved out into a distinct census identity (or had Mediterranean whites been carved out into a separate racial category in the early 20th Century), history may have played out differently, since plenty of Hispanics were being counted as “white” and marrying without the controversy seen in marriage across other racial and ethnic lines.

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  36. @Honorary Thief
    I would be surprised if there was much pre-1900 propaganda describing anything but whites as a superior race. There was not much contact between antebellum Southerners and South or East Asians and intelligence testing hadn't been invented yet. It seems more likely they would have just lumped all the "coloreds" in together as subhuman/savages.

    There was substantial anti-Chinese racism in the American West. What people today find difficult to imagine given that our national narrative (embodied on the Statue of Liberty) that immigration is nothing but good is that people living in precarious economic situations or at a subsistence level viewed the inflow of outsiders as competition for limited resources. Of course today, the threat is that companies will simply move their entire operation elsewhere, so if they can’t get immigrants in America to do the work Americans won’t do without getting paid much more, they’ll simply move the job to someplace else where the people will work cheaper. So even if the US were to limit immigration more tightly to keep out the people being let in on H-1B visas or Mexican migrant workers, for example, companies can now simply outsource their IT work to Asia or try to grow crops in Mexico, instead.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wilkey
    "So even if the US were to limit immigration more tightly to keep out the people being let in on H-1B visas or Mexican migrant workers, for example, companies can now simply outsource their IT work to Asia or try to grow crops in Mexico, instead."

    There is quite a lot of work in the USA which can't be outsourced - construction, most of the service industries, and resource extraction, to name (more than) a few. It is ridiculous to say that since we can't defend ourselves against some forms of competition that we let down our guard everywhere.

    A hugely disproportionate share of job growth over the last few years has been in the oil industry. If you're extracting resources from American soil, most of your workers necessarily have to be domiciled in the USA. They can't do it from Hyderabad or Chihuahua.
  37. @Simon in London
    "I’ve seen examples of Asians considering themselves the apex race where whiteness is considered a liability and a step down."

    This seems pretty rare* among east-Asians, much rarer than you'd expect if IQ data was well known and taken seriously. I think people go much more by current civilisational status/power than by group IQ or similar data (wealth, income, crime rate, etc). If I'm right then if/when China becomes the most powerful country, Chinese-Americans will soon see east-Asians as the master race in a way they rarely do now.

    *Is it more common in Hawaii, where Japanse-Americans dominate Euro-Americans?

    There are several factors at work that can cause people to dislike mixed marriages, including how important their cultural identity is, how strongly their social circle and social status converges with their particular cultural identity, and how they view the prospects of various cultures and that’s on top of a vague general preference I think many people have to want their children and grandchildren to look something like them and share their culture (see, for example, Lowri Turner’s article about her mixed-heritage baby feeling alien to her because the baby doesn’t ethnically look at all like her). But ask an Asian “Tiger Mother” who drives her children to get straight-As and send their kids to academic prep classes after school how they’d feel about their son or daughter marrying a typical American, and I doubt you’ll find a lot of enthusiasm for the idea or sentiments that American culture is just as good as Asian culture. See the following quote from this article about white flight from Asian-dominated schools:

    At Cupertino’s top schools, administrators, parents and students say white students end up in the stereotyped role often applied to other minority groups: the underachievers. In one 9th-grade algebra class, Lynbrook’s lowest-level math class, the students are an eclectic mix of whites, Asians and other racial and ethnic groups.

    “Take a good look,” whispered Steve Rowley, superintendent of the Fremont Union High School District, which covers the city of Cupertino as well as portions of other neighboring cities. “This doesn’t look like the other classes we’re going to.”

    On the second floor, in advanced-placement chemistry, only a couple of the 32 students are white and the rest are Asian. Some white parents, and even some students, say they suspect teachers don’t take white kids as seriously as Asians.

    “Many of my Asian friends were convinced that if you were Asian, you had to confirm you were smart. If you were white, you had to prove it,” says Arar Han, a Monta Vista graduate who recently co-edited “Asian American X,” a book of coming-of-age essays by young Asian-Americans.

    Ms. Gatley, the Monta Vista PTA president, is more blunt: “White kids are thought of as the dumb kids,” she says.

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    • Replies: @prosa123
    Some of the opposition to mixed-race relationships might diminish if they were less skewed in gender terms. In the most visible type, involving blacks and whites, the skew is obvious: WF/BM marriages outnumber the reverse 3 to 1, and if you consider relationships outside of marriage the skew seems massive, on the nature of 20 to 1 or even more (there are no official statistics AFAIK).
    Asian/white relationships also are skewed, this time in favor of white men, though that seems to be diminishing. Hispanic/white relationships do have some reasonable gender parity, at least outside the Northeast where it's usually WF/HM.
  38. prosa123 [AKA "Peter"] says: • Website     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @AnonNJ
    There are several factors at work that can cause people to dislike mixed marriages, including how important their cultural identity is, how strongly their social circle and social status converges with their particular cultural identity, and how they view the prospects of various cultures and that's on top of a vague general preference I think many people have to want their children and grandchildren to look something like them and share their culture (see, for example, Lowri Turner's article about her mixed-heritage baby feeling alien to her because the baby doesn't ethnically look at all like her). But ask an Asian "Tiger Mother" who drives her children to get straight-As and send their kids to academic prep classes after school how they'd feel about their son or daughter marrying a typical American, and I doubt you'll find a lot of enthusiasm for the idea or sentiments that American culture is just as good as Asian culture. See the following quote from this article about white flight from Asian-dominated schools:

    At Cupertino's top schools, administrators, parents and students say white students end up in the stereotyped role often applied to other minority groups: the underachievers. In one 9th-grade algebra class, Lynbrook's lowest-level math class, the students are an eclectic mix of whites, Asians and other racial and ethnic groups.

    "Take a good look," whispered Steve Rowley, superintendent of the Fremont Union High School District, which covers the city of Cupertino as well as portions of other neighboring cities. "This doesn't look like the other classes we're going to."

    On the second floor, in advanced-placement chemistry, only a couple of the 32 students are white and the rest are Asian. Some white parents, and even some students, say they suspect teachers don't take white kids as seriously as Asians.

    "Many of my Asian friends were convinced that if you were Asian, you had to confirm you were smart. If you were white, you had to prove it," says Arar Han, a Monta Vista graduate who recently co-edited "Asian American X," a book of coming-of-age essays by young Asian-Americans.

    Ms. Gatley, the Monta Vista PTA president, is more blunt: "White kids are thought of as the dumb kids," she says.
     

    Some of the opposition to mixed-race relationships might diminish if they were less skewed in gender terms. In the most visible type, involving blacks and whites, the skew is obvious: WF/BM marriages outnumber the reverse 3 to 1, and if you consider relationships outside of marriage the skew seems massive, on the nature of 20 to 1 or even more (there are no official statistics AFAIK).
    Asian/white relationships also are skewed, this time in favor of white men, though that seems to be diminishing. Hispanic/white relationships do have some reasonable gender parity, at least outside the Northeast where it’s usually WF/HM.

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    • Replies: @The Practical Conservative
    Nah, the most recent Pew data shows that the IR marriage gap is closing for black women, and that it's more like 2:1 now. Combined with the higher fertility of BW/WM marriages and the one-drop rule, in another generation or less it should converge or exceed BM/WW marriages.

    A majority of the IR "black" children born in wedlock are born to white fathers, which is a small group, but due to that higher fertility I mentioned, the BW/WM marriages can still produce quite a lot of the in-wedlock black children and the hourglassing/narrowing is getting sharper over time as marriage becomes more and more for elites and childbearing is heading that direction too, with more and more pressure to not let feckless poor women have even one child OOW anymore.
  39. @Jefferson
    "I agree that the “white” category will expand"

    I disagree. Look at how many White Conservatives were angry when the liberal media kept referring to the Triracial George Zimmerman as "White".

    Even White Conservatives who claim to be color blind did not agree with George Zimmerman being racially described as "White".

    White America is not ready to extend it's racial membership to people who do not look like any of the Ellis Island or Mayflower immigrants.

    Well this “White Conservative” objected to Zimmerman being labelled white not out of some silly Purity Politics but because Zimmerman himself has never identified as white. Plus the media used Photoshop to make his skin lighter when they were setting up the witch hunt. Finally, the fact that his great grandfather was black only served to make the whole witch hunt even more absurd.

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  40. @AnonNJ
    There was substantial anti-Chinese racism in the American West. What people today find difficult to imagine given that our national narrative (embodied on the Statue of Liberty) that immigration is nothing but good is that people living in precarious economic situations or at a subsistence level viewed the inflow of outsiders as competition for limited resources. Of course today, the threat is that companies will simply move their entire operation elsewhere, so if they can't get immigrants in America to do the work Americans won't do without getting paid much more, they'll simply move the job to someplace else where the people will work cheaper. So even if the US were to limit immigration more tightly to keep out the people being let in on H-1B visas or Mexican migrant workers, for example, companies can now simply outsource their IT work to Asia or try to grow crops in Mexico, instead.

    “So even if the US were to limit immigration more tightly to keep out the people being let in on H-1B visas or Mexican migrant workers, for example, companies can now simply outsource their IT work to Asia or try to grow crops in Mexico, instead.”

    There is quite a lot of work in the USA which can’t be outsourced – construction, most of the service industries, and resource extraction, to name (more than) a few. It is ridiculous to say that since we can’t defend ourselves against some forms of competition that we let down our guard everywhere.

    A hugely disproportionate share of job growth over the last few years has been in the oil industry. If you’re extracting resources from American soil, most of your workers necessarily have to be domiciled in the USA. They can’t do it from Hyderabad or Chihuahua.

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  41. “On the second floor, in advanced-placement chemistry, only a couple of the 32 students are white and the rest are Asian.”

    In my high school AP chem class – and I went to a large, suburban middle-class high school – there were ~10 of us – 2 Asians, the rest of us white. That’s all the students in my rather large school who wanted to take AP chem. We didn’t have a lot of Asians in my school.

    So that sort of puts lie to the notion that if Group X (Asians/whites) weren’t pushing out Group Y (whites/blacks), that Group Y would be doing better. There just wouldn’t be as many kids in the class. When you transfer that AP chem class to a black high school, the numbers wanting to take AP chem are so low that you have no AP chem class at all.

    What’s interesting, though, is that the Asian phenomenon seems to diminish a bit once you’re outside the classroom walls. Asians do well in this country, but their impact on politics, business, and culture is not nearly as huge as you might expect from their classroom performance.

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  42. ” And I think that had Hispanics not been carved out into a distinct census identity (or had Mediterranean whites been carved out into a separate racial category in the early 20th Century), history may have played out differently, since plenty of Hispanics were being counted as “white” and marrying without the controversy seen in marriage across other racial and ethnic lines.”

    Most Hispanics are too racially mutt and that is why they got carved out into their own distinct census identity and did not become just another Caucasian ethnic group like the Germans for example.

    Among the Hispanic celebrities that have been on Henry Louis Gates show, not a single one of them has ever come out 100 percent European after taking a DNA test. Not even the light skin Hispanic celebrities came out 100 percent European.

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    • Replies: @AnonNJ
    "Hispanic" isn't a race. At best, it's a culture, and it's not even really that (there are substantial cultural differences between various "Hispanic" people, with some of those from Mexico classified as such who can't even speak Spanish). It's an artificial category every bit as bizarre as classifying both South Asians in India and East Asians in Japan into the same census category of "Asian". I've met a Puerto Ricans couple that was more (naturally) blonde and light-skinned than most white people, and there are clearly black Dominican Hispanics, and descendants of the Mayans who still speak their indigenous language rather than Spanish who are classified as Hispanic, too. Yet the Haitians who inhabit the other half of Hispaniola from the Dominicans who are not Hispanic because they speak French, nor are Jamaicans because they speak English. Ricardo Montalban would once have been white but is now considered not white because he has a Spanish name and accent. Did I Love Lucy depict an interracial couple or simply an intercultural couple?
  43. @Jefferson
    "I tend to think that that was more about outrage over MSM hypocrisy. Under normal circumstances (i.e., circumstances not involving the narrative regarding the “victimization” of Black youth), MSM outlets would never have referred to Zimmerman as a “White Hispanic.”

    Naw it was a straight up phenotype thing. White Conservatives just do not think George Zimmerman looks White in appearance.

    Do you think White Conservatives would be bitching about Frankie Muniz being labeled as White by the media if he killed a Black yoof ?

    Naw it was a straight up phenotype thing. White Conservatives just do not think George Zimmerman looks White in appearance.

    Conservatives were commenting on the fact that the Liberal press was calling Zimmerman a “White Hispanic” for blatantly strategic reasons. After all, “White Hispanic” is a locution that the Liberal media almost never employ.When, for example, have they used it for Cameron Diaz or Ricardo Montalban (people who actually are “White Hispanics”)?

    Do you think White Conservatives would be bitching about Frankie Muniz being labeled as White by the media if he killed a Black yoof ?

    The Liberal media virtually never mention Muniz’s Hispanic background. It doesn’t fit the narrative.And, had he been the one who shot Zimmerman, they would have simply called him “White.”

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  44. @prosa123
    Some of the opposition to mixed-race relationships might diminish if they were less skewed in gender terms. In the most visible type, involving blacks and whites, the skew is obvious: WF/BM marriages outnumber the reverse 3 to 1, and if you consider relationships outside of marriage the skew seems massive, on the nature of 20 to 1 or even more (there are no official statistics AFAIK).
    Asian/white relationships also are skewed, this time in favor of white men, though that seems to be diminishing. Hispanic/white relationships do have some reasonable gender parity, at least outside the Northeast where it's usually WF/HM.

    Nah, the most recent Pew data shows that the IR marriage gap is closing for black women, and that it’s more like 2:1 now. Combined with the higher fertility of BW/WM marriages and the one-drop rule, in another generation or less it should converge or exceed BM/WW marriages.

    A majority of the IR “black” children born in wedlock are born to white fathers, which is a small group, but due to that higher fertility I mentioned, the BW/WM marriages can still produce quite a lot of the in-wedlock black children and the hourglassing/narrowing is getting sharper over time as marriage becomes more and more for elites and childbearing is heading that direction too, with more and more pressure to not let feckless poor women have even one child OOW anymore.

    Read More
  45. “Conservatives were commenting on the fact that the Liberal press was calling Zimmerman a “White Hispanic” for blatantly strategic reasons. After all, “White Hispanic” is a locution that the Liberal media almost never employ.When, for example, have they used it for Cameron Diaz or Ricardo Montalban (people who actually are “White Hispanics”)? ”

    I have read Conservatives on discussion boards say that George Zimmerman looks like he sells oranges on the streets or looks like he owns a taco truck, which is basically a swipe at him not looking White.

    Syon how many White people do you see selling food out of a taco trucks or selling oranges on the streets ? These jobs are dominated by Mestizos/Amerindians.

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    • Replies: @AnonNJ
    I've been amused to see people talk about Ricardo Montalban as being non-white, only to be asked when Spaniards stopped being white (Mondalban's parents were from Spain). Sure, there are photos where George Zimmerman looks pretty Peruvian but one can also visually distinguish Mediterranean whites from Northern European whites and one can sometimes see some of the Asian admixture in Eastern Europeans as well as among the Sami of Finland. And as we head further East into India, there is a whole range from blonde and blue-eyed Afghans to the admixture in India between European and South Asian. At what point, and on what basis does one stop being white?
  46. “A majority of the IR “black” children born in wedlock are born to white fathers,”

    When it comes to “Black” celebrities born to White fathers, the vast majority of them grew up in a 2 parent household if you read their Wikipedia pages.

    The only “Black” celebrity I can think of who was born to a White father but still raised in a 1 parent household by a single mother was the late singer Etta James who is famous for recording the classic song “At Last”. Her father was of Swiss descent, but wanted nothing to do with raising her. Which should not be surprised because she was born in 1938 when it was considered taboo for a White man to raise a child of African descent due to anti-racial miscegenation laws back than.

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  47. @Andrew
    The current narrative from the left is that you are either white (oppressor) or not white (oppressed). I think that this will remain an important element of racial identity in the foreseeable future. Although there is also a process by which groups become effectively white, Jewish people have mostly reached this point and Asian, particularly North Asian people, are well on the way.

    The white/non-white (“people of colour”) distinction makes sense from a societal standpoint, as unfortunately it is one’s outward appearance that determines in large part the societal attitudes with respect to race that are applied to you. And yah, I definitely agree that there’s a sliding scale of “whiteness” that changes over time.

    I don’t think it should surprise anyone here that the cultural ideas of “race” don’t correspond well to any sort of deeper biological reality (as I feel Razib’s post points out quite well).

    Nor do I think it should be surprising that a system often intended to create and ordered hierarchy between groups of people has a tough time dealing with the in-between cases.

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  48. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    More mixed people is GREAT!!. Best way to eradicate the race categories. I do not except these race categories influencing my identity, imposing on my freedom and putting a label on me like a lab rat.

    Kiss my ass “race realists”. I’ll go as far to kill you guys if it comes to it. Hopefully I have the extra violent 2 repeat MAOA gene to do it with.

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  49. Jefferson,

    Is there any evidence, apart from James’ own claims, that Minnesota Fats was actually her father?

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  50. @Jefferson
    "Conservatives were commenting on the fact that the Liberal press was calling Zimmerman a “White Hispanic” for blatantly strategic reasons. After all, “White Hispanic” is a locution that the Liberal media almost never employ.When, for example, have they used it for Cameron Diaz or Ricardo Montalban (people who actually are “White Hispanics”)? "

    I have read Conservatives on discussion boards say that George Zimmerman looks like he sells oranges on the streets or looks like he owns a taco truck, which is basically a swipe at him not looking White.

    Syon how many White people do you see selling food out of a taco trucks or selling oranges on the streets ? These jobs are dominated by Mestizos/Amerindians.

    I’ve been amused to see people talk about Ricardo Montalban as being non-white, only to be asked when Spaniards stopped being white (Mondalban’s parents were from Spain). Sure, there are photos where George Zimmerman looks pretty Peruvian but one can also visually distinguish Mediterranean whites from Northern European whites and one can sometimes see some of the Asian admixture in Eastern Europeans as well as among the Sami of Finland. And as we head further East into India, there is a whole range from blonde and blue-eyed Afghans to the admixture in India between European and South Asian. At what point, and on what basis does one stop being white?

    Read More
  51. @Jefferson
    " And I think that had Hispanics not been carved out into a distinct census identity (or had Mediterranean whites been carved out into a separate racial category in the early 20th Century), history may have played out differently, since plenty of Hispanics were being counted as “white” and marrying without the controversy seen in marriage across other racial and ethnic lines."

    Most Hispanics are too racially mutt and that is why they got carved out into their own distinct census identity and did not become just another Caucasian ethnic group like the Germans for example.

    Among the Hispanic celebrities that have been on Henry Louis Gates show, not a single one of them has ever come out 100 percent European after taking a DNA test. Not even the light skin Hispanic celebrities came out 100 percent European.

    “Hispanic” isn’t a race. At best, it’s a culture, and it’s not even really that (there are substantial cultural differences between various “Hispanic” people, with some of those from Mexico classified as such who can’t even speak Spanish). It’s an artificial category every bit as bizarre as classifying both South Asians in India and East Asians in Japan into the same census category of “Asian”. I’ve met a Puerto Ricans couple that was more (naturally) blonde and light-skinned than most white people, and there are clearly black Dominican Hispanics, and descendants of the Mayans who still speak their indigenous language rather than Spanish who are classified as Hispanic, too. Yet the Haitians who inhabit the other half of Hispaniola from the Dominicans who are not Hispanic because they speak French, nor are Jamaicans because they speak English. Ricardo Montalban would once have been white but is now considered not white because he has a Spanish name and accent. Did I Love Lucy depict an interracial couple or simply an intercultural couple?

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  52. ” Sure, there are photos where George Zimmerman looks pretty Peruvian”

    I have never seen any photos of George where he actually resembles someone named Zimmerman.

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