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Dershowitz on Europeans and Irrationality
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Noam Chomsky wrote of Dershowitz that he is a “remarkable liar” and “slanderer.” These problematic traits Chomsky noted of the former Harvard professor have proved useful. I might not have seen Dershowitz’ most recent recycled rant had he not mentioned my name and, as always, lied about me.

In his article, Dershowitz claims that I deny that the “Holocaust is historically proved.” Wrong! I argue that all historical narratives ought to be discussed freely and debated fearlessly. This treatment may not be applied to the Holocaust. The Holocaust has been minimised by its present status as legally protected religious dogma. If the Holocaust is the new religion, I defend my right to be agnostic.

According to Dershowitz, Atzmon “believes that Jews may well have killed Christian children to use their blood to bake Passover matzah.” If Dershowitz would just bother to actually read the work that he cites, he would learn that it wasn’t I who produced this sceptical recital of the Jewish blood libel, it was Ariel Toaff, an Israeli professor at Bar Ilan who back in 2007 published a book titled “Blood Passover European Jews and ritual murder.”

Then Dershowitz arrives at his oft-repeated lie about me, Atzmon “thinks it’s ‘rational’ to burn down synagogues.” I am taking this opportunity to address his insane accusation for the first time. I would think that I shouldn’t need to inform Dershowitz that the words he ‘quotes’ have never appeared in any of my writings or my talks. I have never and would never incite violence nor have I ever been questioned, let alone charged by any law enforcement authority anywhere in the world about anything I have written or said.

Back in 2005, the Guardian published a story about UK Jewish pressure groups that submitted a dossier of allegations of antisemitsm at the London SOAS University. The dossier included the following: “Gilad Atzmon, a pro-Palestinian activist and musician, who gave a talk to students this month, arguing: ‘I’m not going to say whether it is right or not to burn down a synagogue, I can see that it is a rational act’.”

At the time, Zionist Jewish groups attempted to file a complaint with the police but were shown the door as they 1. failed to produce any evidence, and 2. failed to grasp that my SOAS lecture presented a philosophical study of rationality in conflicts in general and in anti Semitism in particular. All this I explained on the pages of the Guardian a week after the paper published the original erroneous article. As I wrote at the time, the quote attributed to me was both “inaccurate and taken out of context. By no possible interpretation did I justify any form of violence against Jews, Jewish interests or any innocent people.” I have never and would never incite violence nor have I ever been so much as questioned by any law enforcement authority anywhere in the world about anything I have written or said.

Funny, I would expect a professor at the Harvard Law School capable of grasping the distinction between rationality and ethics. I’ll explain. War crimes are most often also rational acts of war, however unethical. For example, dropping an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, although likely in the running as the ultimate unethical act, was a ‘rational act’: it delivered a clear message to the Soviets and other interested parties by demonstrating the terrible destructive power of the newly born A- bomb. The stated intention behind the act was was an immediate and total surrender by the Japanese to end the war.

Writing of the contents of my actual lecture, I held my ground as I still do. I claimed that “since Israel presents itself as the ‘state of the Jewish people’, and bearing in mind the atrocities committed by the Jewish state against the Palestinians, any form of anti-Jewish activity may be seen as political retaliation. This does not make it right.”

Dershowitz’s inability to distinguish between the concepts of ‘ethics’ and ‘rationality’ is at the core of his simplistic argument: His writing can seem removed from either intellectual integrity or academic consistency. It seems Dershowitz does not feel a need to adhere to the Athenian intellectual ethos. He is doing just fine in Jerusalem.

Dershowitz’s article is entitled, “Why it’s not surprising to see Jew-hatred increase in Western Europe.” The answer Dershowitz provides is certainly banal. His claim: Europeans are basically a bunch of anti-Semites who have perpetuated the “myth” that the Holocaust was “the work of German Nazis aided perhaps by some [Eastern European] collaborators.” Instead Dershowitz claims that the Holocaust was a collective project perpetrated by “Nazi sympathizers and collaborators among the French, Dutch, Norwegians, Swiss, Belgians, Austrians, and other Europeans, both Western and Eastern.” Dershowitz, purportedly a legal ‘scholar’ fails to provide a single source for this claim.

Let’s assume charitably that Dershowitz fails to see he might be making things worse by calling a large percentage of Europeans murderers and/or Nazis and that in so doing he provokes opposition to himself and everything associated with his Zionist project.

Dershowitz must believe that opposition to Jewish politics and Zionist crimes has no cause, no rational basis. He writes, “the pervasive anti-Semitism and irrationally hateful anti-Zionism that has recently surfaced throughout western Europe toward Israel should surprise no one.”

ORDER IT NOW

Dershowitz is being either intentionally misleading or delusional. Apparently, he is convinced that any increase in opposition to Jews is related to Israel’s criminality. He complains that Leftists single out Israel for criticism. “Where are your demonstrations on behalf of the oppressed Tibetans, Georgians, Syrians, Armenians, Kurds, or even Ukrainians?” he asks. Even the misguided professor should know that the Tibetan Lobby in Washington is not quite as powerful and influential as AIPAC. Dershowitz ought to find out how many Tory MPs are members of the “Conservative friends of Georgia.” I suppose I don’t need to add that the Syrians have yet to terrorise the British Labour Party and its leader on behalf of their leader Bashar Al-Assad.

Perhaps the opposition to Jewish pressure groups all over Europe is a reaction to some of the insanely aggressive and ugly politics openly perpetrated by Jewish pressure groups and Israel’s lobbyists.

To accuse Labour members, for instance, of ‘irrationality’ and ‘racism’ for being upset when they learned that Shai Masot, an Israeli secret agent, was interfering with their party politics, is to deny rationality itself. Accusing the Poles, who see themselves as among the primary victims of WW2, of anti-Semitism for defying Israel’s demands for restitution verges on the absurd, especially considering the fact that Israel is a monument to a gross racist ethnic cleansing crime driven by the decision to plunder another people’s land.

After censuring ethically oriented and patriotically driven Europeans as ‘irrational’ for defying a foreign criminal country’s interference in their political affairs, Dershowitz sets the parameters for his own particular definition of objectivism. “Any objective person with an open mind, open eyes…must see the double standard being applied to the nation-state of the Jewish people. Many doing so are the grandchildren of those who lethally applied a double standard to the Jews of Europe in the 1930s and 1940s. They must be shamed into looking themselves in the mirror of morality and acknowledging their own bigotry.”

I suggest that before Dershowitz ‘shames’ Europeans for seeing Israel for what it is, the ardent Zionist caricature might have to accept that crimes committed by a state that calls itself ‘The Jewish State’ and decorates its tanks and airplanes with Jewish symbols may inflict shame on the entire Jewish people. Certainly many Jews are genuinely troubled and distressed by this fact. Before Dershowitz condemns Europeans, Dershowitz should consider performing the elementary intellectual exercise of examining his argument in a wider context: He should look into the possibility that the Jewish past is an ongoing disaster for a reason. If Dershowitz is interested in learning about rationality, looking introspectively for the logos that has made Jewish history into a chain of pogroms would be a great project for his retirement.

(Republished from Gilad Atzmon by permission of author or representative)
 
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  1. David says:

    Apparently, he is convinced that any increase in opposition to Jews is related to Israel’s criminality.

    Did the author mean to write the opposite of this?

    Also, going from “Nazi sympathizers and collaborators among” to “a large percentage of” seems a little dishonest, though the gist of the column certainly doesn’t.

    • Replies: @CBTerry
  2. Nice deconstruction by Gilad Atzmon. It is refreshing to see critical thinking skills applied to Dersh’s obvious disinformation tactics.

    • Replies: @Gilad Atzmon
    , @Rubicon727
  3. Anon[277] • Disclaimer says:

    ” If Dershowitz would just bother to actually read the work that he cites,”

    I believe it was Norman Finkelstein in CounterPunch who devoted much space to showing, in a book on Palestine, how Dershowitz pretended to cite primary sources when actually he was using secondary ones, which would be plagiarism under the Harvard standards.

    Dershowitz has long since ceased to “research” anything, relying on teams of grad students, I suppose.

  4. druid55 says:

    Gave up listening to Dershowtiz or reading anything he write a while ago. The man is a mountain of hate and propaganda lies for Israel and Zionists!

    • Agree: renfro
  5. The “resistance is futile (oh, and immoral, and irrational)” jokes write themselves 😀

  6. Bill65 says:

    Another excellent piece by Glad who in my opinion is a hero.

    • Replies: @Gilad Atzmon
    , @Anon
  7. alexander says:
    @Anon

    I believe there was an episode of “Democracy Now” where Dershowitz and Finkelstein faced off over the “disputed” population count of Palestinians dispossessed during the war of 1948.

    Finkelstein won.

    Up until that point Israel had maintained they took over a “land without a people…for a people without a land”….that very few, if any, Palestinians had been displaced during Israels war of independence.

    I believed this to be so for much of my life, BTW, never thinking that Israel, on the heels of the Holocaust, could commit such a crime .

    I didn’t think it was possible.

  8. Dersh would respond to this unfair vilification but he’s too busy popping girl-child cherries in Epstein’s pedo salon.

    • LOL: NoseytheDuke
    • Replies: @Moi
  9. Sue him for libel – in Britain of course, where the libel laws are very strict.

    • Replies: @Gilad Atzmon
    , @dearieme
  10. Jews are going to get a serious reckoning, worldwide, once the Boomer ZioCucks are off the political stage. Unfortunately, the Boomer Kikes will, for the most part, miss that reckoning.

    • Agree: hamtok
  11. ‘…I suggest that before Dershowitz ‘shames’ Europeans for seeing Israel for what it is, the ardent Zionist caricature might have to accept that crimes committed by a state that calls itself ‘The Jewish State’ and decorates its tanks and airplanes with Jewish symbols may inflict shame on the entire Jewish people…’

    Looking at it from a religious point of view, it’s possible God let modern Israel come to pass to teach the Jews humility.

  12. Good one by Atzmon. If Dershowitz is a Semite, then decency forces us all to become anti-Semites, and be proud of it. (He isn’t, of course. He has no more Semitic blood in his veins than I do. He’s pure Khazar).

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @anon
  13. Yes, absolutely there’s a double standard for Israel — that of excusing and rationalizing its every war crime, while ordinary nations are eventually brought to justice.

  14. Flight Logs Put Clinton, Dershowitz on Pedophile Billionaire’s Sex Jet
    by Nick Bryant, Gawker, 1/22/15 http://gawker.com/flight-logs-put-clinton-dershowitz-on-pedophile-billio-1681039971

    Here Is Pedophile Billionaire Jeffrey Epstein’s Little Black Book
    by Nick Bryant, Gawker, 1/23/2015 http://gawker.com/here-is-pedophile-billionaire-jeffrey-epsteins-little-b-1681383992

    • Agree: Cloak And Dagger, Druid
  15. anon19 says:

    “They must be shamed into looking themselves into the mirror of their own morality…”

    This is the whole Jew strategy since 1945, trying to shame whites into feeling guilty and thus powerless.

    If whites just told Jews to go F*** themselves Jewish power would be broken in one second.

  16. anon19 says:
    @alexander

    You were wrong. It was actually far more true in places like Australia, Canada or even America where aboriginal populations were very tiny in a huge land.

    • Replies: @alexander
  17. Paul says:

    The stated intention behind the act was an immediate and total surrender by the Japanese to end the war [a rational act making an invasion of Japan unnecessary].

  18. @Anon

    The entire Finkelstein ordeal has me convinced that the Israel Lobby wrote most of or all the text in question and just had Dershowitz sign his name to it. Dershowitz only got as far as he did because he is a member of the eternal victim class. How sad how he’s been mistreated with all those false accolades.

  19. @Anon

    Yep, in the piece I provided a link to Amy Goodman’s Democracy Later’s Finkelstein / Dershowitz debate.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  20. Wally says: • Website
    @alexander

    said:
    “I believed this to be so for much of my life, BTW, never thinking that Israel, on the heels of the Holocaust, could commit such a crime”

    Oh please. ‘Heels’ of what “holocaust”?

    They have you firmly in their grip if you still believe in that load of easily shredded Zionist propaganda. The “holocaust’ is for suckers.
    There is no proof for the impossible & laughable gas chambers, nor the alleged millions of Jews and ‘others’ allegedly shot into enormous pits … where the locations of the alleged human remains are supposedly precisely known, but in fact are nowhere to be seen.

    For starters see my links posted in my comment #14.

    Thanks.

    • Replies: @Anon
  21. @James N. Kennett

    People who believe in Freedom of Speech don’t sue for libel…they let the truth unveil itself…

    • Replies: @lavoisier
    , @David
  22. Z-man says:

    The only thing Douche-a-witz is good for is his undying defense of our Orange king (understandingly so). Once he’s served his usefulness in helping Trump get reelected he should be ‘drawn and quartered’ or at least deported to The Zionist Entity with a ban on him being on TV. (Wry grin)

  23. dearieme says:
    @James N. Kennett

    In England and Wales where the libel laws are very strict.

  24. geokat62 says:
    @Gilad Atzmon

    Amy Goodman’s Democracy Later

    LOL… So true

  25. geokat62 says:

    Perhaps the opposition to Jewish pressure groups all over Europe is a reaction to some of the insanely aggressive and ugly politics openly perpetrated by Jewish pressure groups and Israel’s lobbyists.

    Gilad, truer words have never been spoken. Thank you for having the courage to continue to speak truth to power, as you so eloquently do.

    • Agree: mark green
  26. annamaria says:

    What “law” have they been teaching g at Harvard Law School that it is criminal to criticize any lawless actions of the Jewish State?

    The recent criminal step by the ZUSA: “US Confirms It Updated Maps To Show Disputed Golan Heights As Israeli https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-05-31/us-confirms-it-updated-maps-show-golan-heights-israeli

    The White House bestowed US formal recognition on the disputed Syrian-claimed Golan as Israeli territory in late March days after Trump issued a single bombshell tweet which announced “it is time” for the US to “fully recognize Israel’s sovereignty” over the Golan Heights. …

    Trump’s son-in-law and senior adviser Jared Kushner gifted him [Bibi] the map while touring the region ahead of a US-sponsored economic peace summit set to be held in Bahrain in late June, during which Trump’s so-called “Deal of the Century” plan will be unveiled, designed to achieve economic stability for the Palestinians as part of a peace plan.

    The Palestinians under President Mahmoud Abbas have declared their intent to boycott the summit, saying they weren’t even consulted … China and Russia will also stay away in solidarity with the Palestinian side

    Israel fully annexed the Golan Heights in 1981 after capturing it from Syria during the Six-Day War of 1967. The United Nations has never recognized Israeli annexation and settlement there, but has repeatedly condemned it — all of which has resulted in a Syria-Israel state of war ever since.

    Where is the critique of Harvard Law School professorship of this violation of international law?

    • Replies: @Tsigantes
  27. Anon321 says:

    The alleged holocaust has not been historically proven. If anything, it has been overwhelmingly disproven.

    Dershowitz is nothing more than a one man PR show for zionism. If they’re still available on YouTube, there were some great debates filmed where Norman Finkelstein firmly and hilariously impaled Dershowitz.

    • Disagree: Wally
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @Wally
  28. Logan says:

    Up until that point Israel had maintained they took over a “land without a people…for a people without a land”….that very few, if any, Palestinians had been displaced during Israels war of independence.

    Unless I’m mistaken, the land without a people quote was about Palestine back when the Zionist movement started around 1900. At which point in time the land was very thinly settled, something like .5M. You can read Mark Twain’s discussion of a visit 30 years earlier, during which little had changed.

    By 1948 the total population was 2M, with the non-Jewish population having approximately tripled. Much of it due to natural growth, but some also due to immigration from nearby countries.

    I’ve not seen the “land without a people” meme ever applied to 1948.

    Doesn’t, of course, necessarily mean it was appropriate in 1900 or that Jewish activities were justified by the thin settlement of the land then.

    • Replies: @Wally
    , @Wizard of Oz
  29. Dershowitz is the classic example of The Protocols of Zion in operation, Netanyahu is another example, these are zionists, zionists lie, that is what they do!

    • Replies: @Druid
  30. CBTerry says:
    @David

    That’s what I initially thought, but I think what he meant to say is something along the lines that Dershowitz is convinced that any increase in opposition to Jews is related to Israel’s criminal behavior toward the Palestinians. Thus Dershowitz wonders where the opposition is to the suppression of other ethnic groups, such as Tibetans, Georgians, Syrians, Armenians, Kurds, or even Ukrainians. Not finding any such opposition, Dershowitz concludes that the increase in opposition to Jews is really secondary to Europe’s endemic, irrational antisemitism, presumably with the Palestinian issue being a convenient excuse.

    Gilad Atzmon then says that the increase in opposition is “a reaction to some of the insanely aggressive and ugly politics openly perpetrated by Jewish pressure groups and Israel’s lobbyists,” and not a reaction to what is going on in the Middle East.

    • Replies: @David
  31. CBTerry says:
    @Anon

    And I believe that CounterPunch editor Andrew Cockburn went after Dershowitz for plagiarism / academic misconduct in the Harvard Crimson, showing that Dershowitz in defending himself against Finkelstein’s charges further incriminated himself by intentionally misquoting the Chicago Manual of Style, ellipsing out something like 80 pages to change its meaning. My memory is hardly eidetic (to put it mildly!) so I would be interested if anybody has a better recall of that exchange.

  32. Parbes says:

    Alan Dershowitz is a vile, warmongering piece of Zio-neocon supremacist filth. What he really needs is euthanizing.

    • Agree: L.K
  33. lavoisier says: • Website
    @Gilad Atzmon

    People who believe in Freedom of Speech don’t sue for libel…they let the truth unveil itself…

    It is hard to let the truth unveil itself today. There are so many powerful forces that want to shut down free speech and independent thought.

    I think being victimized by these forces would have taught you that.

    But I admire your courage and thank you for a thoughtful article.

    By the way, I never once trusted Alan Dershowitz on anything.

    He has managed to destroy some really good people, and he would like nothing better than to destroy you.

  34. Wally says:
    @Logan

    The Myth of a ‘Land Without People for a People Without Land’, by Roger Garaudy:
    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n5p38_Garaudy.html

  35. I thought Finklelstein had done a great job revealing Dershowitz’s lies. Guess the Dersh is like the proverbial bad penny that keeps bouncing back. Atzmon does a fine job here, but what concern’s me the most is that although entirely discredited Dershowitz still retains a wide audience in the msm…guess I shouldn’t be surprised tho….

    • Replies: @Whitewolf
  36. Perhaps the opposition to Jewish pressure groups all over Europe is a reaction to some of the insanely aggressive and ugly politics openly perpetrated by Jewish pressure groups and Israel’s lobbyists.

    Not mysterious and irrational Anti-Semitism, but entirely predictable Counter-Semitism.
    And not even that.
    Israel has very successfully merged “prejudice against your ordinary Jew in the street” (hardly an issue in Western Europe since .. I dunno .. Lord Haw-Haw was stretched? At least among the benighted and dwindling Euro natives ..) and “objection to the rapacious and murderous expansion of a self-declared religious “White” ethnostate over the local historic and prehistoric population(s)”. As insouciantly bad as East Timor and the Indonesians.

    I see they’re going full-on 1000-bomber-raid against hapless, spergy Jeremy Corbyn now. Everybody in the country is a witch Anti-Semite now, they cry.
    Careful what you wish for

  37. Perhaps the opposition to Jewish pressure groups all over Europe is a reaction to some of the insanely aggressive and ugly politics openly perpetrated by Jewish pressure groups and Israel’s lobbyists.

    The problem I have with just about every Jewish writer or thinker that I can think of is that they either want to credit anti-Jewish sentiment to disgust over Israel and its supporters, or to an irrational hatred of Jews, when the reasons for anti-Jewish sentiment often go far beyond Israel, and into Jewish politics that are based on a hyper-aggressive hatred of Whites, Christians, and Europeans on the part of Jews everywhere. This hatred shows up in every area of Jewish culture from comedy to politics, and is noticed and resented by many.

    I’ve been to Israel, and have a fairly good understanding of the situation. I despise the Jewish community for destroying so much of my nation, its government and institutions, and wasting so much of our blood and treasure to fight for their evil agenda in the ME. BUT that’s only a part of the problem that many have with Jews.

    The desire to destroy Europe and the U.S. pushed by the Jewish Left, using multiculturalism and demographic change, is obvious, and is at least as much of a cause of anti-Jewish sentiment as Zionism. I would even throw in the lawlessness of Wall Street as an issue for many.

    Asking if we can live together without being destroyed is rational. I don’t see any reason to believe that we can. Anti-Jewish sentiment alone is mild, and any White who isn’t at least wary of Jews is either not paying attention, stupid, or is profiting from Jewish power. Anti-semitism is a rational reaction to much of Jewish behavior, organized or not.

    • Replies: @renfro
    , @Druid
  38. @druid55

    Gave up listening to Dershowtiz or reading anything he write a while ago. The man is a mountain of hate and propaganda lies for Israel and Zionists!

    That, and the man was instrumental for getting Jeff Epstein off with a slap on the wrist for whoring underaged girls to the politically powerful. He is also accused of engaging in the sexual exploitation of these girls, but so far, it seems, he has managed to escape the wrath of the law.

    May he rot in a maggot-infested grave soon.

  39. @druid55

    just another dumb jew liar/lawyer.

  40. renfro says:
    @OilcanFloyd

    Asking if we can live together without being destroyed is rational

    I agree. When I look at the pattern of the Jews through out history I would say No.
    Its the same pattern of behavior over and over and over again.

    And the Tribe’s excuses are the same over and over again…hated for their difference, hated for their smartness, hated for superior morality, hated for no reason because anti-semitism is a gentile disease, etc etc.
    It’s a classical feature of cults and messianic movements that members of the cult embrace the delusion that they are immune from all rational laws and human sins, they convince themselves that they are a body of “exceptional” (and exceptionally innocent) people. This is why most self-destruct sooner or later.

    Every country in Europe has had its experience with the Tribe, America is now having its experience with them.

    And there is no point in moaning over the collateral damage to the little non zionist Jews….collateral damage is unfortunately the way of the world when the cookie crumbles.

    • Agree: Cloak And Dagger
    • Replies: @Antares
  41. One Tribe says:

    Wow! An article so loaded with germane fact, and potential inoculations against the obsessively manipulating class.

    Thank you.

    We can see the long term program of the creation of a prime ‘American‘ public relations brand (i.e. perception management ‘influencer‘), over a path of presenting him to the public as a legitimate commenter on contemporary events, for A.D.
    A constituency has been customer built for him, in his many appearances, by way of controlling interests across multiple media sectors, all of them, of course, associated by their common affiliation to a fundamentally hatefully discriminatory extra-national ideology, which by systematically undermining nation state laws, has created an empire aligned to the affiliation’s obsessive psychotic and ultimately suicidal pursuit of power and control over all.

    So, while there is fundamental manipulative deceit in A.D.’s ‘sermons‘, and a competent rational analytical actor like the author of this article can, deftly (and it should be noted, quite eloquently), expose the duplicity of ‘teacher‘ A.D., the exposure to a large ‘follower‘ group, (i.e. a ‘church‘ and/or ‘congregation‘), as has been established by the purveyors of A.D. dogma/ideology/apology/hasbara, means that the author’s shredding of A.D. and his preaching can be largely ignored, as an impact in the larger perception management program (unfortunately).

    Still, the innate robustness of adaptability in evolutionary life forms, like humans, seems to be yielding some kind of a ‘intellectual resistance‘, like anti-bodies to the now ridiculous epistemology, insisted upon, as the religion across the nations of the empire.
    Though at comparatively manageable proportions, this resistance seems to be growing at an exponential rate, much like the human immune response, in production of anti-bodies to a viral infection.

    Certainly many Jews are genuinely troubled and distressed by this fact.

    But why don’t we see this unusually legitimate criticism making it to prominent sections in the MSM?
    I could agree more with the statement,

    …all historical narratives ought to be discussed freely and debated fearlessly.

    Furthermore, I would add that the universality of this freedom is an excellent measure to the health of a society of a nation state, and more, that actors/affiliations that are exempt from this are to be watched and investigated thoroughly to keep society viable.

  42. Antares says:
    @renfro

    Jewish organisations want us to believe that jews are inherently different from others. It would be hard to come to your conclusion without a believe in that prejudice.

    If the jewish persecution and Israel had not existed, then it is my estimation that jews would already have assimilated. Why else would those events have happened?

    • Replies: @renfro
  43. renfro says:

    All you need to know about the character of Jews and Israel is in this report.
    Sometimes you realize you really don’t despise them enough.

    Israel to auction prefab classrooms EU donated to Palestinians

    Last year, Israel shut down a number of schools in the West Bank [Getty]

    Date of publication: 31 May, 2019

    ‘Israel’s defence ministry plans to hold an auction next week to sell two prefabricated classrooms that were donated to Palestinian schoolchildren by the EU.

    Two prefabricated classrooms donated by the EU to Palestinian schoolchildren will be auctioned off by Israel’s defence ministry, the Guardian reported on Friday.

    The classrooms, which were torn down and confiscated by Israeli forces in October, will be put up for sale next week, according to an advertisement in Israeli newspaper Maariv.

    A list of the items up for auction matched the description of the confiscated classroom structures, the Guardian said. They had been intended for 49 Palestinian students of primary school age in the West Bank village of Ibziq.

    When the structures were seized in October, the EU mission to Jersalem and Ramallah slammed the move and urged by Israeli authorities to return the classrooms to their place “without delay”.

    “Every child has the right to access education and states have an obligation to protect, respect and fulfil this right, by ensuring that schools are inviolable safe spaces for children,” it said at the time.

    “[T]he EU calls upon the Israeli authorities to halt demolitions and confiscations of Palestinian houses and property, in accordance with its obligations as an occupying power under international humanitarian law.”

    Last year, Israel shut down a number of schools for Palestinian children in the West Bank, stating that they did not have permits to run.

    Israel occupied the West Bank during a 1967 war and 400,000 Israeli settlers remain there, in communities considered illegal by the international community”

    • Agree: DESERT FOX
  44. He began his teaching career at Harvard Law School where, in 1967, at the age of 28, he became the youngest full professor of law in its history. He held the Felix Frankfurter professorship there from 1993[4] until his retirement in December 2013

    This is from the first paragraph in the wikipedia A. D. bio. He is a billionaire measured in social capital. : (

  45. A. Person says:

    I am an idealist. I’d be merry if all synagogues, churches, cathedrals and mosques were bulldozed flatter than hammered spit. (No offense intended, and none taken, I hope.)

    I say this to give cool people the pleasure of a chortle.

    • Replies: @Anon
  46. Incitatus says:

    “Noam Chomsky wrote of Dershowitz that he is a “remarkable liar” and “slanderer.””

    Dershowitz , a fawning junior-varsity cheerleader, is also insipidly delusional:

    “No country in the history of the world has ever contributed more to humankind and accomplished more for its people in so brief a period of time as Israel has done since its relatively recent rebirth in 1948.”– Alan Dershowitz

    Egypt, Mesopotamia, Persia, China, Helene philosophy, Athenian democracy, Alexander the Great, the Roman Republic and Empire, Byzantium, Carolingian Europe, monastic scholarship, the birth of universities, the age of discovery, the Renaissance, the Enlightenment, the Industrial Revolution?

    Eclipsed by cherry tomatoes?

    This guy taught at Harvard?

    • Replies: @anon
    , @unseated
  47. @renfro

    Two prefabricated classrooms donated by the EU to Palestinian schoolchildren will be auctioned off by Israel’s defence ministry, the Guardian reported on Friday.

    Israel: a kleptocracy of satanic proportions. For the rest of us goyim, this is an existential threat from evil incarnate. There is only one exit door from this carnage, and it won’t end well for the jews.

    • Agree: renfro
  48. @Cloak And Dagger

    The key to ending zionist control of the zio/US is abolishing their zionist banking kabal privately owned and unconstitutional FED!

  49. Al Liguori says: • Website
    @Cloak And Dagger

    …and it won’t end well for the jews.

  50. Anon[363] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bill65

    Why a hero?
    (Don’t assume discordance of opinion on my part. It’s just that any claims without reasons for them provided sound hollow to my ear.)

  51. Another excellent article by Gilad Atzmon . Chomsky himself has some credibility problems having been accused by Barry Zwicker as being part of the 9/11 cover – up and it is likely that he is a “gatekeeper ” and disinfo agent having refused to consider the substantial evidence of the pre-planted explosives and the demoltions of the Twin Towers and building 7 on 9/11 . Nevertheless Dershowitz’s reputation has been shredded and left in tatters due to his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein and his trips to ” Lolita Island .”

  52. anon[326] • Disclaimer says:
    @Incitatus

    Professor Dershowitz has been instrumental in allowing this nation get away with intellectual genocide . He has been doing it for along time

    “Israel to auction prefab classrooms donated by EU to Palestinians
Calls for Israeli authorities to rebuild West Bank structures confiscated by military— https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/31/israel-to-auction-prefab-classrooms-donated-by-eu-to-palestinians
    Israel is auctioning off classrooms it seized from the occupied West Bank last year, a move that one Palestinian advocate called “truly appalling.”
    The Guardian reported Friday on the auction, expected to be held in the next two weeks.
    “This is so shockingly cruel and brazenly defiant in the face of international law,” saidJames Zogby, founder of the Arab American Institute. “Profiting off of the theft of classrooms and denying Palestinian children a roof over their heads.”
    The Israeli Civil Administration, the governmental body in charge of policy in the occupied territories, dismantled the schools in October. The classrooms were set to be used to educate 49 schoolchildren in the West Bank and were a donation from the European Union Representative to the Palestinian Territories. —– https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/05/31/shockingly-cruel-move-israel-auction-classrooms-it-dismantled-west-bank

  53. @Walter Duranty

    Applause to both Gilad Atzmon and Norman Finklestein!

    I’m so glad you found Ariel Toaff’s book. We purchased it under the name “Blood Passover” but it was the same, eye-opening story of an entire network of strangely demented Jews in Europe who committed these atrocities; found during the Middle Ages, in England, Germany, some in France and others in Italy.
    Toaff uncovered these ancient texts, especially those from Italy exposing Jewish barbarity against Christian children.

    We are hoping that the new generation of Jewish people will be far more understanding towards the rest of the World and to themselves, as well.

    “…… it was Ariel Toaff, an Israeli professor at Bar Ilan who back in 2007 published a book titled “Blood Passover European Jews and ritual murder.”

  54. renfro says:
    @Cloak And Dagger

    There is only one exit door from this carnage, and it won’t end well for the jews.

    I will shed no tears ….they deserve none.

    • Agree: DESERT FOX
  55. @Anon321

    Let’s be clear. How do you define “the alleged holocaust” which you say “has not been historically proven”? There are so many evidences of the Nazis wish to rid Germany and conquered Europe of Jews and of difficilt-to-explain innocently deportations of old people and children from France, Belgium, Holland, Italy and Hungary long after “resettlement” had become impossible that one has to wonder what sort of Holocaust it is that didn’t exist. Another question is why the SS made such a thorough job of demolishing Auschwicz if there were no gas chambers to hide?

    • Replies: @Wally
  56. unseated says:
    @Incitatus

    Not even cherry tomatoes!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_tomato

    The Aztecs cultivated them 500 years ago.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  57. Noam Chomsky wrote of Dershowitz that he is a “remarkable liar” and “slanderer.”

    All Semites are liars and slanderers– all 400 million of them. Land thieves, too.

    • Replies: @Nonny
    , @Anon
  58. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @A. Person

    No, no, many eould, even after you’ve auctioned off the artworks, make splendid discos and night clubs.

  59. @Fool's Paradise

    Oh, please stop the foolishness about Khazars when DNA testing should have put a stop to that sort of jibe years ago. Perhaps Dershowitz is sui generis.

    • Replies: @Fool's Paradise
  60. @Logan

    It is easy to see how highminded people c.1900 could see a home for unhappy Jews in Ottoman Palestine as a great idea. By the end of WW1 there weren’t enough highminded people left…..

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  61. @renfro

    ‘…‘Israel’s defence ministry plans to hold an auction next week to sell two prefabricated classrooms that were donated to Palestinian schoolchildren by the EU.

    Two prefabricated classrooms donated by the EU to Palestinian schoolchildren will be auctioned off by Israel’s defence ministry, the Guardian reported on Friday.

    The classrooms, which were torn down and confiscated by Israeli forces in October, will be put up for sale next week, according to an advertisement in Israeli newspaper Maariv…’

    They do have a knack, don’t they? I bet if they took up flower arranging they’d come up with some truly artistic creations.

    • Replies: @renfro
  62. anon[310] • Disclaimer says:
    @Fool's Paradise

    “If you are Semite,I am then anti .”- that should be response to those who raise the charge of anti Semitism to prevent the debate , to suppress the truth and to criminalize the exploration of the truth.

    By using the sentence that way, the Zio could even take it out of context and then saying “he said I am anti Semite”

    • Replies: @Fool's Paradise
  63. renfro says:
    @Colin Wright

    I’ve never been able to come up with a word to describe this trait in Jews/Israelis…..words like
    vindictive and spiteful….don’t seem bad enough, don’t seem to describe their real sickness.

    • Agree: Colin Wright
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  64. renfro says:
    @Antares

    If the jewish persecution and Israel had not existed, then it is my estimation that jews would already have assimilated. Why else would those events have happened?

    The Jews will never assimilate.
    Contrary to myth Jews were given the opportunity to assimilate many times….most importantly after the Enlightenment when they were given citizenship in Europe.
    They didn’t assimilate then and still haven’t.
    ‘Jew qua nation’ will always be a tribe.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Antares
  65. @Wizard of Oz

    Wizard of Oz, please educate me. Khazars are not Khazars because of DNA testing? If so, I’m willing to drop the outdated title, and just say that all the Jews in Israel, and all the U.S. Jews come from the ghettos of far Eastern Europe, not a Semite among them. Nevertheless, if you criticize anything they do or say, you’re an “antiSemite”.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  66. @anon

    Yes, I am saying that when gentiles or “self-hating Jews” are accused of being “antiSemites” when they criticize Jewish Supremacy or Israeli crimes, what they should do, instead of falling all over themselves to apologize, is to shout, “Hell yes! If war criminal Netanyahu, or liar Dershowitz, or AIPAC members who control Congress, or Neocons who control the White House, are Semites, then I am an anti-Semite and proud of it!” We won’t be free until we do that. Many Jewish religious teachers–rabbis–have bragged that, e.g., one Jewish fingernail is worth a thousand Arabs, that, e.g., Jews are made of finer stuff than gentiles, and this rabbi can sit at stool, and smell his stink, and think he’s made of finer stuff than his gentile neighbor doing the same thing, and aren’t people who believe such things some kind of freaks who deserve our pity and contempt? Yet we go in fear of being called “antiSemites by them.

  67. Whitewolf says:
    @JoaoAlfaiate

    Atzmon does a fine job here, but what concern’s me the most is that although entirely discredited Dershowitz still retains a wide audience in the msm…

    What concerns me is that although entirely discredited the msm itself still retains a wide audience.

  68. I recall reading once that even in the USA 50% of 5th generation Jews married non-Jews. Who really cares whether people assimilate? Parents don’t have that level of control over their children. Other people have even less control.
    Jews have been very successful in dominating countries where they have a small percentage of citizens. Would it be any better if it was Mormons who dominated the USA or the stronger example of the Ukraine? It’s not easy to come up with a sensible system to prevent domination by a small and sufficiently cohesive group. People don’t really know what their country is like apart from their own social network. For anything beyond that, they learn from the media they follow. Fake news means belief in a fake country.
    Resistance to dominant and exploitative elites is a good but eternal struggle because each victory leads to a new elite that sooner or later become exploitative. Power has always corrupted because humans are seldom perfect. [email protected]

    • Replies: @Wally
  69. @renfro

    ‘The Jews will never assimilate…’

    I’d say your logic here is at least partially circular. Those Jews who do assimilate cease to be identifiably Jews; only Jews who don’t assimilate continue to be identifiably Jews.

    I’m fairly confident that over time, many Jews have taken the opportunity to leave the faith; they have simply dropped it, and neglected to burden their children with the identity. For example, I may have a Jewish ancestor — or maybe I don’t. No one really knows about that particular guy. It’s a bit like those innumerable white people who like to think they’re one-sixteenth Cherokee or whatever. Sometimes they are; sometimes they’re not.

    • Replies: @renfro
  70. @Wizard of Oz

    ‘It is easy to see how highminded people c.1900 could see a home for unhappy Jews in Ottoman Palestine as a great idea. By the end of WW1 there weren’t enough highminded people left…..’

    Even among Jews, Zionism was a fringe idea back then. For example, in 1917, only one percent of American Jews identified themselves as Zionists.

  71. @Fool's Paradise

    When I told a rabbi I happened to be sitting next to at a memorial service over 25 years ago that I remembered reading in a 1960s issue of Blackwoods Magazine of the East European Jews Khazar origins he said it was Arthur Koestler’s nonsense in “The Thirteenth Tribe” and that only the Khazar royals and related aristocrats converted. (Apparently it had something to do with the Khazars being stuck between Muslims and Christians….). I had raised the matter because, for some reason, it had just struck me as ridiculous that a people from the Khazar territory would speak a dialect of German which is what Yiddish mostly is.

    Later I read lots of stuff from people like Greg Cochran (who posts on UR as gcochran) and the late Henry Harpending and it was clear that Ashkenazi Jews (those you are referring to) were descended very roughly 50:50 from Semitic Jewish males and European – probably Celtic in northern Italy – females. After my chat with the rabbi who said that there were Jews in the Rhineland before the Germans got there I used to imagine smart local girls latching on to young Jewish merchants who had been waiting too long for a bride to arrive from Judaea, but that may only be right in imagination and Italy seems to be the favoured origin.

    To satisfy your curiosity you might find some interest in Googling, as I just have, “what is the proportion of Khazar ancestry in Ashkenazi Jews”. The only link I opened was

    https://www.the-scientist.com/daily-news/genetic-roots-of-the-ashkenazi-jews-38580

    It doesn’t look as though Koestler was right in his apparent, rather absurd, effort to counter “anti-Semitism” by showing that Jews in Europe weren’t semitic at all!

    • Replies: @Fool's Paradise
  72. Antares says:
    @renfro

    The current heightened accusations of antisemitism and introduction of laws against antisemism mean that they are desperate. They are losing their grip on jews.

  73. @renfro

    As I read often much more hate and contempt filled aspersions on Jews (and, specially, Israelis – about whom generalisations can be made which don’t apply to most Jews) I feel sorry for those who, often, clearly know more about Jews in their imaginations than as actual people.

    I was at the tail end of generations of multi-generation Australians for whom Jews did not loom large in their consciousness, if at all. I hear now about some antisemitism from way back (though it didn’t stop a Jew being appointed as Australia’s greatest general or another as Chief Justice then the first Australian born Governor-General) but I think the Jewish academic who said there was little antisemitism in Australia but a great deal of Protestant v. Irish Catholic antagonism was right.

    I had, travelling, noted some confirmation that Israelis could be rude and direct rather than emollient in a way others had observed (including Australians of Jewish back ground) but one could make many equivalent generalisations, including favourable, about almost every nationality and there would be some truth in them. So….

    Eventually I joined a tour of Israel with pretty well connected and well informed (and very Zionist) tour leaders. Apart from much to admire in the development of technological solutions to problems I was struck by more than one amusing contrast in that particular sample of human nature in action. Just for one:

    We had a most interesting and impressive address by a truly impressive small muscular man. He was Doron Almog, former General commanding Southern Command who had retired early to found and get started a charity for children with disabilities, to which he devoted himself. He had been the paratroop officer who landed first at Entebbe Airport and secured the runway and control tower for the incoming Israeli plane(s).

    Entertaining contrast at a Beersheba (I think) supermarket which was chaotically full so, in order to get out quickly, I went into a storage area where I could see a gaping outside door only 20 feet away. There I got the would be macho treatment from a Doron Almog wannabe – similar pint size though nothing like as muscular – who tried to prevent me taking the few steps to leave the building. I’m afraid I couldn’t help just looking down on him and saying “and what are you going to do to stop me?” Nothing of course.

    I’m afraid I can’t generate much sympathy for ethnocentric hates and tend to expect that one person’s generalisations will be countered by another person’s experience….And yet, and yet, I can remember one of the wisest most worldly and observant people I have ever known making generalisations about people of different ethnicities. (As it happened he knew both our great Jewish general and Jewish Governor-General and, while enormously admiring and personally liking the former had decided reservations about the latter). The moral perhaps is to observe very closely and form opinions carefully and modestly. As I don’t count myself as a having a great intuition or powers of observation about people I don’t think I should express too many certainties. And I wonder just how many – *if any* – of the Judaeophobes on UR have gifts that mean such a rule shouldn’t apply to them.

    • Replies: @renfro
    , @renfro
    , @Anon
  74. Wally says:
    @Anon321

    Check that, I meant AGREE.

    Absolutely.

  75. @Colin Wright

    Yes, do you know of any good account of the (I surmise) pretty ruthless struggle to suppress Jewish opposition and generate momentum. I cam imagine how a good novelised version might have some pretty realistic imagining of attitudes amongst the slackers of all classes. “Hey, waddayouknow: Sammy was over here to persuade our boy to go and recreate grandpa’s stinking shtetl on a mudflat in f**king Palestine!”.

  76. There is much debate and passion about the Holocaust – rightly so. It is particularly important because humanity is blundering towards another world war. There is no need to go into projected fatalities, that has been documented sufficiently elsewhere, suffice to say the death toll will be enormous. It is essential to ask why our race, a hundred years after the first one, is facing into a third global catastrophe. The Holocaust is a warning of what humans are capable of. The pattern of history is clear. Power (manifested as interest) has been present in every conflict of the past – no exception. It is the underlying motivation for war: it brings out the worst. Other cultural factors might change, but not power. Interest cuts across all apparently unifying principles: family, kin, nation, religion, ideology, politics – everything. We unite with the enemies of our principles, because that is what serves our interest. It is power, not any of the above concepts, that is the cause of war. Governments fail to learn from the past and are blind to the future: they keep making the same mistakes.
    https://www.ghostsofhistory.wordpress.com/

  77. alexander says:
    @anon19

    Yes.

    But it is not just that I was wrong in thinking “it wasn’t possible”, the question is “why” I thought so.

    The answer has to do with the “universality” of the post WWII conclusions on “war of aggression”, “ethnic cleansing”, and “genocide”.

    They are recognized (today) not only as the “supreme crimes” among crimes , but “moral abominations” of the highest magnitude.

    For over thirty years,Israel and its sponsors, bent over backwards to disguise the Nakba(the Palestinian holocaust).

    With good reason.

    If the “moral authoritas” to the creation of Israel, was born, in some measure, as a response to the horrors of the Holocaust, then finding Israel “guilty” of committing the exact same crime (to the Palestinians )would undermine its moral legitimacy.

    How can “anyone” decry the ethnic cleansing of the Jews from Germany as a supreme evil, and not decry the same fate befalling the Palestinians ?

    It’s impossible.

    The Finklestein/ Dershowitz debate on “Democracy Now” was not just about Dershowitz “plagiarizing” texts, but about his plagiarizing “false texts” which minimized the horrors of the Palestinian Nakba.

    It was Finklesteins scholarship which helped overturn decades of obfuscation on Palestinian dispossession, and perhaps the exact reason he was pilloried(at the time) as the greatest living “anti-Semite”.

    It is no wonder that several months after the “Democracy Now “episode aired, The Jewish Establishment pulled out all the stops to “punish” Finklestein, and force a “down vote” on his tenure track at DePaul University.

    Finklestein lost his tenure battle , but his scholarship on the Palestinian Nakba was, and remains…Undeniable.

    It has come to be “accepted fact” in most history books around the world.

    • Agree: annamaria
  78. Nonny says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    You’ve got it wrong. Learn what a Semite is. Study the history of the Muslim conquest of Palestine. The Khazar-European talmudists are in the process of exterminating the ancient Hebrew people, now called Palestinian Arabs.

    • Replies: @Anon
  79. @Wizard of Oz

    Thanks, Wizard, for the link. I confess that I read the 13th Tribe years ago and got my notion of Khazars from that book. But the rabbi you knew who said that Jews were in the Rhineland before Germans got there: who, then, according to Tacitus, were those fierce people fighting the Romans 2,000 years ago–Jews?
    In my long life I know/have known, many Jews, and I, of Scotch-Irish origin, blue eyes and all, could be one of them. I have lived among real Semites (several years in Saudi Arabia, visits to other Semitic countries), and I doubt that Netanyahu or Dershowitz have a drop of Semitic blood in them. (a book I wrote, same title as my pseudonym here, published in 1988 by Random House, USA, and Bloomsbury Press, London, takes the reader traveling in Arabia and was shortlisted for the Pulitzer Prize in 1988. Women and religion among its major discussions)

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  80. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @Reg Cæsar

    And that’s without counting the other 6 billion extant hominids.

  81. Issar says:

    Agnostic? The gas chamber at Auschwitz has been thoroughly debunked since the Zundel trials in Toronto, Canada– 1985 and 1988. As admitted, the ‘gas chamber’ shown to visitors was constructed in 1948; holes were cut in the roof as if such a method of throwing a fumigant into a building could possibly ‘gas’ anyone let alone millions; the doors and windows were not sealed; soil and brick samples show no trace of this Zyklon B while the nearby de-lousing building is loaded with it; the chimney built in 1948 is not even connected to the building.

    Big piles of hair and shoes from ‘Auschwitz’ are now on display in NYC. How much longer are these shysters going to be allowed to get away with this? Oh– I forgot. They’re going to get away with it forever.

    Zundel was eventually kidnapped from the United States; held in solitary confinement in Canada for a year and a half; spent six years in a German prison and never saw his wife Ingrid again. That is the price he paid for inviting truth into the light of day.

    In the meantime the anti-fascist youth—nurtured on the black milk of these lies—are being taught that political violence is the only way to stop Hitler from coming back.

    The gas chambers– probably the greatest lie ever told. A macabre tale burned into children’s minds worldwide. Does anyone have a conscience? It may be costly– even inconvenient. But people have an obligation to confront this so-called holocaust before another generation falls into its hysteria and mass delusion.

    Prominent persons ought to be required to discuss it. Not just say, “Let’s discuss it.” Either these gas chambers existed or not. The late Robert Faurisson used to say, “Show me or draw me a picture of a gas chamber.” None answered the call. Someone else recently imprisoned in Germany has asked, “Where were these gas chambers?” That was enough to bring her a six month sentence with more to be added if she does not repent. I would call this a sick joke. Raul Hillberg himself never visited Auschwitz; knew of no forensic evidence of gas chambers; and said at the Zundel trial that no scientific evidence for gas chambers actually existed.

    Anti Zionism is now being criminalized in 20 American States. Unless people are prepared to climb back up into trees, it’s time to start dealing with this profoundly bizarre farce.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  82. @Colin Wright

    Do you know of any good books – it could make a great historical novel – about the way anti Zionist Jewish voices were silenced and Zionism picked up momentum in America. One can imagine the dismay with which the immigrant parents of an aspiring medical student would treat propagandists for what they would see as recreating grandpa’s shtetl in swampy coastal land near Tel Aviv.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  83. Wally says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Here we go again, the old moving of the goal posts.

    How Anon321 ‘defines the holocaust’ is irrelevant. It’s the definition, as ridiculous & impossible as it is, given by the “Holocaust Industry” that matters, that is shoved down eveyone’s throat for big money.

    And that definition always includes the bogus ‘6,000,000 Jews’, impossible homicidal ‘gas chambers’, & the equally bogus ‘millions of ‘others’.

    So according to your logic, the kidnapping, deportation, seizure of property, forced incarceration of adults, the elderly, & children who were Japanese-Americans into US concentration camps ….. from as far away as South America qualifies as ‘the holocaust’.

    You lie when you say Auschwitz was demolished, it certainly was not as the profitable Fantasy Theme Park that rakes in the cash will attest.

    There were no homicidal gas chambers, none, and you have no proof.

    The Rudolf Report
    Expert Report on Chemical and Technical Aspects of the ‘Gas Chambers’ of Auschwitz

    http://vho.org/GB/Books/trr/index.html

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Wizard of Oz
    , @anon
  84. Wally says:
    @Donald A Thomson

    said:
    “I recall reading once that even in the USA 50% of 5th generation Jews married non-Jews.”

    You failed to state that most by far of those “non-Jews” convert to being a Jew.
    More unearned free benefits that way, and they get to claim the always cherished & profitable ‘Victim’ Status’, as fake as it is.

  85. Incitatus says:
    @unseated

    “Not even cherry tomatoes! The Aztecs cultivated them 500 years ago.”

    LOL! Doubtless Alan will claim Old Testament provenance, sue Aztecs for infringement and demand reparations!

  86. Anon[329] • Disclaimer says:

    , Atzmon “thinks it’s ‘rational’ to burn down synagogues.”

    It may not be rational in a legal sense, but those synagogues exist for one purpose: to perpetuate a religion that explicitly wishes to see all non-Jews dispossessed and most non-Jews genocided in the medium term future.

    Resisting and expelling that ideology is not irrational. Its survival.

    Dershowitz’s article is entitled, “Why it’s not surprising to see Jew-hatred increase in Western Europe.” The answer Dershowitz provides is certainly banal. His claim: Europeans are basically a bunch of anti-Semites who have perpetuated the “myth” that the Holocaust was “the work of German Nazis aided perhaps by some [Eastern European] collaborators.” Instead Dershowitz claims that the Holocaust was a collective project perpetrated by “Nazi sympathizers and collaborators among the French, Dutch, Norwegians, Swiss, Belgians, Austrians, and other Europeans, both Western and Eastern.”

    In other words: “European failure to sufficiently accept broad-stroke collective guilt for a dubious claim of mass murder, and in doing so give Jews even greater political capital against anyone who wants to flirt with their own nationalism and therefore their group survival, is why Jews are hated in Europe”.

    Got it.

    It couldn’t be their supremacist, openly genocidal religion.

    Where are your demonstrations on behalf of the oppressed Tibetans, Georgians, Syrians, Armenians, Kurds, or even Ukrainians?”

    In contrast with the Jews, the Soviets and Chinese aren’t openly agitating against and oppressing us in our own nations. Moreover, I have yet to identify the Sino-Russo 2.5 millenia old slavers religion of hate and international ethnic supremacy that would be motivating any local oppression. Of course, beyond the Jewish communism that the Jews infected them with.

    “Any objective person with an open mind, open eyes…must see the double standard being applied to the nation-state of the Jewish people. Many doing so are the grandchildren of those who lethally applied a double standard to the Jews of Europe in the 1930s and 1940s. They must be shamed into looking themselves in the mirror of morality and acknowledging their own bigotry.”

    The root of Judaism is the double standard for Jews and non-Jews. The root of Judaism is bigotry against the non-chosen.

    If this world is to survive, we must start openly identifying what Judaism is, according to what it states, and start treating it accordingly: a ruthless ethnic supremacist ideal bent on world domination.

    Once that occurs, whiny vipers like Dershowitz will not be able to get away with accusing others of being bigoted against Jews.

    Before Dershowitz condemns Europeans, Dershowitz should consider performing the elementary intellectual exercise of examining his argument in a wider context: He should look into the possibility that the Jewish past is an ongoing disaster for a reason. If Dershowitz is interested in learning about rationality, looking introspectively for the logos that has made Jewish history into a chain of pogroms would be a great project for his retirement.

    Good luck with that. These people are long-practiced at denying their criminality. The only way that they will be held accountable is by forced group trial on the world stage.

    Of course, their ethnic supremacy would not recognize a trial by non-Jews as legitimate. For them, the only legitimate supreme-judges of both Jews and non-Jews are Jews.

    A fact which leads to their downstream damnable behavior and is paradoxically why their ideology needs to be tried.

    Parallel to that process, Judaism needs to be outed with a broad, painfully detailed, and easily accessible public exposition of their full belief system.

  87. Anon[409] • Disclaimer says:
    @Nonny

    You’ve got it wrong. Learn what a Semite is. Study the history of the Muslim conquest of Palestine. The Khazar-European talmudists are in the process of exterminating the ancient Hebrew people, now called Palestinian Arabs.

    What you state is not correct. But if it were, you’d be damning those Arabs along with the practicing Jews. The Hebrews are criminal destroyers of humanity and likely began as criminal and foreigner outcasts in Canaan / Phoenicia. Lands that were not originally Arab, but that is beside the point at the moment.

    You preach from the “noble Hebrew” perspective, which today is not entirely dissimilar from the noble savage perspective in terms of its ahistoricity. That Hebrewism is something to aspire to and claim is a product of Jewish supremacist propaganda, and it is in what you have rooted your low self-esteem fictional identity for the Arabs.

    The Talmud is not different from the Tanakh in its essential messages. One is not worse than the other. They are both tomes that preach the rabid genocide and oppression of non-Jews. It follows that labeling someone a “talmudist” in contrast with, what? A Tanakhist? Carries a Jew-neutral implication rather than an inferior one.

  88. Anon[409] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wally

    Oh please. ‘Heels’ of what “holocaust”?

    They have you firmly in their grip if you still believe in that load of easily shredded Zionist propaganda. The “holocaust’ is for suckers.
    There is no proof for the impossible & laughable gas chambers, nor the alleged millions of Jews and ‘others’ allegedly shot into enormous pits … where the locations of the alleged human remains are supposedly precisely known, but in fact are nowhere to be seen.

    Psalm 69 in the Jewish Tanakh advises the Jews to accuse their enemies of false crimes as a matter strategy toward their destruction. Read the rest of Psalm 69 as well.

    Holocaust insistence and accusations are akin to a person writing-out a plan to frame their neighbor, framing him using pure accusations, flimsy evidence and then prohibiting an open examination of that evidence, and then denying the frame-job after the plan is found and leaked.

    Psalm 69

    27Charge them with crime upon crime;

    do not let them share in your salvation.

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @Wizard of Oz
  89. @Wizard of Oz

    ‘…One can imagine the dismay with which the immigrant parents of an aspiring medical student would treat propagandists for what they would see as recreating grandpa’s shtetl in swampy coastal land near Tel Aviv.’

    Well, such tales would have been few and far between.

    Few Jews with an authentic choice ever emigrated to either Palestine or the subsequent state of Israel. Look up the figures for the United States; that’s where a third of the world’s Jews were, and the figures have always been trivial.

    Up until the upheavals of the late twenties and the thirties, the Zionist community in Palestine was tiny: about eighty thousand was all they’d managed to rope in by 1922. Then the flood started; but it was almost all Jews who had been driven out of their homelands — and artfully kept from having any other place to go.

    For example, after World War Two, there were about a million displaced Jews who couldn’t or wouldn’t return home. So well-intentioned gentiles in the British and US governments decided the thing to do was to resettle them; half in the Commonwealth Dominions and half in the US.

    The US Zionists pushed the panic button. ‘No — they all have to go to Palestine!’

    And so they did. The scheme was blocked, the displaced Jews stewed in camps until April 1948, and then as soon as Israel declared independence, they flooded in.

    …but not because they had a better place to go. Few Jews with a decent home have ever gone to Palestine. You wouldn’t catch Fran or Lot or any of our other resident Hasbariots dead in the place; they’d rather stay in the US, thank you.

    Israel is a hobby, not a need. That’s one of the many vile things about it. All this expense, suffering, and conflict is for a goddamned hobby.

    • Replies: @alexander
    , @Wizard of Oz
  90. renfro says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    You are limited in your thinking.

    It is perfectly legitimate to hold two views of Jews…..one, a positive view of Jews as individuals….another, a negative view of Jews as a tribe.

    The question debated during the Enlightenment on the question of citizenship for Jews was Jews qua individuals vr Jews qua nation.
    Many did not believe that Jews even if given citizenship in a nation would cease to act as a ‘nation within a nation’.

    I think past history and the present show that for the most part they still act as a nation within a nation.

    • Agree: Wally
  91. alexander says:
    @Colin Wright

    That is fascinating , Colin.

    The concept of Israel as ….”a hobby”.

    I have heard Israel labelled many things before, but this is the first I have heard the word “hobby”.

    Can you explain a little more of what you mean by that ?

    • Replies: @renfro
    , @Colin Wright
  92. @Colin Wright

    I wondered if there were something good to read on the triumph of Zionism amongst American Jews (i had in mind partly the frequent references on UR to Brandeis’s Zionism) but you draw attention to the much more gripping story of Zionists’ utter ruthlessness in making Palestine the only answer for many Jews. Has that been well written up, as history or fiction?

  93. renfro says:
    @Colin Wright

    many Jews have taken the opportunity to leave the faith; they have simply dropped it,

    Whether Jews leave Judaism or not doesnt mean they have assimilated. …whatever you want assimilate to mean. Most of the Jewish Zionist neocons are secular.

    They believe they are more than a religion….they think they are a ‘unique people’ , similar to a ‘race ‘of people. They view their Jewish identity as a matter of culture, heritage, nationality, or ethnicity. Their claim of uniqueness is that they are an ancient people dispersed from their ancient homeland.

    They of course ignore that everyone on earth comes from ancient people…lol

    In “The Invention of the Jewish People,” by Shlomo Sand, he argued that the idea of Jewish peoplehood was a modern invention in the service of the Zionist cause. Or as Tom Segev summarized Sand’s argument: “There was never a Jewish people, only a Jewish religion.”

    But even the religious Jewish neocons are very clear about assimilation …. Elliot Abrams, Cheney’s advisor in the Bush WH said it best….”“Outside the land of Israel, there can be no doubt that Jews, faithful to the covenant between God and Abraham, are to stand apart from the nation in which they live. It is the very nature of being Jewish to be apart-except in Israel- from the rest of the population.”

  94. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wally

    Whatever the reasoning behind the regrettable treatment of many Japanese-Americans in WW2 there is a huge distinction which refutes your “logic”. The deportees from France, Belgium etc were not in Germany and thus comparable to Japanese in America. Why, in Holland, make a point of deporting Jews? Were Dutch women and children deported in cattle cars to Poland?

    And, on gas chambers, why did the SS make such a point of totally destroying Auschwicz? What were they hiding?

    • Replies: @Theodore
  95. renfro says:
    @alexander

    Israel is the Jews Disney Land. ..financed by the US.
    Its also a Jewish Ponzi scheme.

  96. @Wally

    It is far from irrelevant to know what a controversialist means when referring to the Holocaust as you have just proved by your reiteration of the 6,000,000 mantra. As I have previously noted the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (state owned like the BBC) broadcast the figures 4.5 to 6 million recently in a leading current affairs program. Not a peep of objection was raised.

  97. renfro says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I feel sorry for those who, often, clearly know more about Jews in their imaginations than as actual people.

    Its not our imagination that you had not a word to say about the Jews confiscating and selling the Palestine children school house….but launched into a defense of Jews/Israel.

    We know you as an actual Jewish person by what you say and what you don’t say.

    Maybe you will get a share of the sale of the children’s school house.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  98. annamaria says:
    @Issar

    “Zundel was eventually kidnapped from the United States; held in solitary confinement in Canada for a year and a half; spent six years in a German prison and never saw his wife Ingrid again. That is the price he paid for inviting truth into the light of day.”
    — But the Jewish State has been arming neo-Nazi in Ukraine, for all other places:

    Journalist Max Blumenthal discusses the SS-wearing Azov Battalion, a neo-Nazi militia that uses Hitlerian symbols and is embedded in the National Guard of Ukraine, which also receives support from the US and Canada.

    A video, “Israel Is Arming Ukraine’s Blatantly Neo-Nazi Militia the Azov Battalion,” has been removed from YouTube. By whom exactly? (YouTube now operates as one of Google’s subsidiaries: https://craft.co/google/executives).

    Israelis were protesting that their government has been supporting and arming the neo-Nazis. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-1.6248727

    A group of more than 40 human rights activists have filed a petition with the [Israeli] High Court of Justice, demanding the cessation of Israeli arms exports to Ukraine.

    The video can been still watched on https://electronicintifada.net/content/israel-arming-neo-nazis-ukraine/24876

    More on the holo-biz denying Knesset: http://www.defenddemocracy.press/israel-is-arming-neo-nazis-in-ukraine/

  99. anon[371] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wally

    As early as September 1942, when most of Europe’s Jews were still alive, the Zionists were thinking of creating a memorial to them. Mordechai Shenhavi of Kibbutz Mishmar Ha’emek proposed the creation of Yad Vashem which was seen as ‘the very last opportunity to score any financial success.’ [Tom Segev, The Seventh Million, p.430] At this time the JA had not even acknowledged that there was a Holocaust. Segev wrote:

    -”There was no clearer, more grotesque, even macabre expression of the tendency to think of the Holocaust in the past tense: while the Yishuv discussed the most appropriate way to memorialise them, most of the victims were still alive.’ [The Seventh Million, p. 141]”
    https://mondoweiss.net/2017/12/holocaust-service-israel/

    WTF???? is this . May be wally can help ( no sarcasm implied at all ) .

  100. annamaria says:
    @Anon

    “Psalm 69 in the Jewish Tanakh advises the Jews to accuse their enemies of false crimes as a matter strategy toward their destruction.”
    — They do not teach that at Harvard Law School. Too bad.

  101. David says:
    @CBTerry

    Compare: Apparently, he is convinced that any increase in opposition to Jews is related to Israel’s criminality.

    To, [Dershowitz] might have to accept that crimes committed by a state that calls itself ‘The Jewish State’ and decorates its tanks and airplanes with Jewish symbols may inflict shame on the entire Jewish people.

    Mr Atzmon seems top be saying that Deshowitz is both convinced of an idea and in need of accepting it.

  102. David says:
    @Gilad Atzmon

    No, freedom of speech doesn’t include a right to libel. If you choose not to sue, that’s your business. But you’re not therefore more committed to freedom of speech than someone who does sue in response to libel.

  103. @alexander

    ‘That is fascinating , Colin.

    The concept of Israel as ….”a hobby”.

    I have heard Israel labelled many things before, but this is the first I have heard the word “hobby”.

    Can you explain a little more of what you mean by that ?

    Israel is a hobby in the sense that for Fran Taubman and Lot and Alan Dershowitz and Leon Uris and Bill Kristol and Paul Wolfowitz and Jeffrey Goldberg and the whole nauseating crew that make the place and our continuing support for it possible, Israel is not necessary to their lives.

    They stay here in comfort, and if Israel didn’t exist at all, they’d live much the same as they do now anyway.

    Their relationship to Israel is analogous to mine to fishing. My life would be somewhat less rich and variegated without fishing, but it would go on quite nicely regardless; it’s a hobby, not a necessity.

    But for this hobby, billions must be spent, and millions must suffer, and evil must be perpetrated, and it must all go on forever. That’s what’s offensive.

    …of course, the local trout population probably have their own take on the relative morality of my hobby and theirs.

  104. Anon[851] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    As I read often much more hate and contempt filled aspersions on Jews (and, specially, Israelis – about whom generalisations can be made which don’t apply to most Jews) I feel sorry for those who, often, clearly know more about Jews in their imaginations than as actual people.

    What on Earth does a discussion of Jews as people have to do with a discussion of their intensely conflict prone / openly genocidal religion of Judaism, and the actions that result from it, which is the topic here?

    You are attempting to do a lame end-run around the only issue (Judaism) by appealing to personal likeability that is not under discussion here. That tactic is a joke. No sale.

    Apart from much to admire in the development of technological solutions to problems I was struck by more than one amusing contrast in that particular sample of human nature in action. Just for one:

    What do your personal anecdotes have to do with the actual reason for antisemitism (the content of the Jewish religion and the resultant hostile sociopolitical and geopolitical actions by Jews)?. Nothing. Moreover, Jews are way to self promoting about their “technological development”, built on the back of our technology, for solving problems in the desert. I’ve never heard such overdone self-promotion for so little. We’ve been solving similar and greater problems for thousands of years as we built civilization, and our self promotion consists of history books. Stop with the Jewish “little engine that could” bullshit as they ask you to pat them on the head so that you won’t hold them accountable as they actually deserve to be.

    I’m afraid I can’t generate much sympathy for ethnocentric hates

    The entire central pillar of the Jewish religion is ethnocentric hate. You either fail in your analysis or you aren’t actually interested in avoiding ethnocentric hate, but rather have some second motivation for defending the Jewish aggressors and haters.

    The moral perhaps is to observe very closely and form opinions carefully and modestly. As I don’t count myself as a having a great intuition or powers of observation about people I don’t think I should express too many certainties.

    Again, you are moving the goalposts well beyond the scope of the obvious and endlessly repeated discussion here: Judaism as a political movement, that movement’s central doctrines, and the resultant actions from that doctrine. Again, no sale.

    And I wonder just how many – *if any* – of the Judaeophobes on UR have gifts that mean such a rule shouldn’t apply to them.

    “Judaeophobes”?? Hilarious term. As if it is “phobic” to dislike a sociopolitical and geopolitical movement that openly seeks one’s dispossession and genocide as stated in their texts, and endlessly agitates for such as evidenced by their political actions in the nations of others and their long history of expulsions as a result. That’s like stating that one is a “homicideaphobe” for disliking and resisting one’s attempted murderer. Save your tired propaganda terms for the comments section at MSNBC.

    The “Judaeophobes at UR” do not follow a formal, genocidal and apocalyptic slaver’s religion that is openly bent on world domination. They don’t have large cells in foreign nations looking to take political and social control in each. They don’t have a long history of being ejected from foreign nations for their openly hostile actions in those nations that is born of “ethnic hatreds”. We are not remotely comparable to the Jews that have never actually received the response that they are continuously asking for and deserve through their ever-hostile, nation-destroying actions that are a matter of their religious doctrine.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  105. @Wizard of Oz

    ‘It is far from irrelevant to know what a controversialist means when referring to the Holocaust as you have just proved by your reiteration of the 6,000,000 mantra. As I have previously noted the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (state owned like the BBC) broadcast the figures 4.5 to 6 million recently in a leading current affairs program. Not a peep of objection was raised.’

    Well, I imagine it’s all cool just so long as ‘six million’ is included. Can you imagine the squawks if they’d just said ‘4.5 million’ or even ‘4.5 to 5.1 million’?

  106. @Wizard of Oz

    The essence of a “state” is its monopoly on violence and other forms of coercion/enforcement.

    When a state media outlet broadcast self-serving claims — even claims that had the facile appearance of moderating claims, from the audience “Not a peep of objection was raised.”

    What a pity the compliant members of that state did not have the benefit of

    “two degrees from a university always included in the world’s top 10, another from a top 30 plus a professional qualification which required sitting for ten 3 hour exams”

    All — or maybe just one — of those badges of faux status might have learned ’em how to peep.

  107. Druid says:
    @DESERT FOX

    Yes, and schooled and enabled by the un-holy talmud!

  108. Druid says:
    @OilcanFloyd

    Totally agree, and it’s not only whites. Currently it’s whites and Europeans because that’s where Jews predominantly reside and the false holovaustianity. Maybe in future it will be Chinese,nor some other place where the talmudist rubs to and eventually gets caught out with regard to his practices!

  109. @renfro

    ‘…But even the religious Jewish neocons are very clear about assimilation …. Elliot Abrams, Cheney’s advisor in the Bush WH said it best….”“Outside the land of Israel, there can be no doubt that Jews, faithful to the covenant between God and Abraham, are to stand apart from the nation in which they live. It is the very nature of being Jewish to be apart-except in Israel- from the rest of the population.”’

    That’s an interesting quote — but I will insist. Your notion that Jews don’t assimilate is circular reasoning.

    Those Jews that do assimilate cease — over a few generations, perhaps, but cease — to be Jewish in any meaningful sense. If someone isn’t conscious of being Jewish, I hold they’re not Jewish.

    …and that’s what will — and almost certainly did — happen. Generation One knows he’s Jewish. He just doesn’t bring it up. Generation Two learns it as a fun fact when they were twelve — then thinks about or mentions it about twelve times over the rest of their lives. Generation three hears something about it — kind of like you found out about your supposed Cherokee great-grandfather — or was it grandmother? Or was she Creek…

    Generation Four ‘learns’ about it in the same sense I ‘learned’ about my civil war-era — I think that’s when it was — German Jewish ancestor. At least, it’s been inferred he was Jewish. You see, he had a name that was often Jewish, so…

    There was once a fascinating documentary about the descendants of Jews in Portugal. You see, Portuguese Jews were all forced to convert in the sixteenth century or whatever, but the Portuguese authorities were more relaxed about things than the Spanish, so there wasn’t much in the way of inquisitions or expulsions. Just show up for Mass on Sundays and don’t actually parade around in a kippah and you’re cool.

    So these Jews kept practicing their religion, but in secret…and generation by generation, their Jewishness inexorably slipped away from them. By the time of the documentary, it consisted of little old ladies who lit candles secretly on Saturday night but for the life of them, couldn’t explain why, and men who told fractured fairy tales about how the king was going to throw them all out, but the good Queen Esther intervened and persuaded him to them to stay, so that’s how they were still in Portugal, and so on.

    I hold these people have ceased to be Jews. Jews who assimilate cease to be Jews. Naturally, those who remain Jews are those who refuse to assimilate. However, it doesn’t follow that Jews don’t assimilate. They do assimilate — probably all the time.

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
  110. @renfro

    ‘Whether Jews leave Judaism or not doesnt mean they have assimilated. …whatever you want assimilate to mean. Most of the Jewish Zionist neocons are secular.’

    This is actually part of the perverted irony that is modern Israel. Ultra-Orthodox Jews still have their religion — and many of them are frankly indifferent or even hostile to the state of Israel. Some sects hold that its very existence is sacrilege. Others threaten to leave Israel en masse if their political demands aren’t met.

    But for secular Jews it’s a different matter. They no longer have the religion. They don’t even have much of a culture beyond a vague sense of intellectual superiority. All they’ve got left to cling to in the way of a Jewish identity is Israel.

    But this is (hopefully) a blip. Increasingly, their children — if they have any — frankly don’t even care about Israel. They’ll cease to be Jews at all — and then Israel will become the sole property of the Christian Right.

  111. renfro says:
    @Colin Wright

    However, it doesn’t follow that Jews don’t assimilate. They do assimilate — probably all the time.

    Well we just have to disagree…..and that may come from having different definitions of assimilate.

  112. Anon[202] • Disclaimer says:

    As ethnonationalists (which is a matter of Jewish doctrine), if Jews would simply live in their own nation instead of those of others then so many of the world’s problems could have been and will be avoided.

  113. @Wizard of Oz

    ‘… As I have previously noted the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (state owned like the BBC) broadcast the figures 4.5 to 6 million recently in a leading current affairs program. Not a peep of objection was raised…’

    Thinking about it, it may be evidence of the power of the priests of the Holocaust cult that the six million figure is still in circulation at all. There’s nothing wrong with the six million figure — but as I understand it, it was merely a fairly uninformed guess, made in 1945 or so.

    Again, I could be wrong, but my recollection is that more recent research has come up with various figures between 5.1 and 5.7 million — but that six million figure still needs to be bowed to.

    Something similar goes on with the various tolls for the various pogroms from Bohdan Khmelnytsky’s uprising to the Russian Civil War. There’s a weird compulsion to keep citing the highest figure ever devised — no matter what subsequent research suggests. One would think the moral texture of the Holocaust wouldn’t really be altered by whether the true total was four million or six million — but six million has to keep getting a nod. God forbid it turning out that ‘only’ four million Jews were killed in the Holocaust. That would change everything.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @anon
  114. @Colin Wright

    I suppose I should have qualified my “Agree”. I can think of Jewish judges, even a rabbi, who went to the traditional private church schools before the post WW2 refugees set up Jewish schools and could only be regarded as assimilated to the best Australian educated upper middle class ways. Then again, I am not sure of what renfro would make of the PM with a Jewish jeweller grandfather who was always regarded as the epitome of landed aristocracy (so-to-speak, it being Australia) or the state Premier with a Jewish grandmother who never gave any sign of Jewish affiliation. I think of a leading figure in the legal world with a Jewish mother but married into the traditional agnostic Protestant professional class and vigorously critical of Israel…. Each, I note, have exhibited humanitarian streaks, or attitudes to say Rhodesia, which one might expect of a Jew – until you look at the Israeli right for your example of Jewish attitudes!

  115. @Colin Wright

    You remind me that some documentaries I have seen recently would be much more persuasive as truth telling if they would only give up the 6 million figure even if it is convenient for the film makers. It detracts from, e.g., very convincing apparent truth telling by aged SS men (and a couple of women) whose truths include justifying what was done in some cases.

  116. Wally says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Laughable response from the impossible ‘gas chambers’ True Believer, Wizard of OZ who previously tried to avoid any numbers, and then cites in desperation the Australian Broadcasting Corporation who absurdly cite ‘4.500,000 to 6,000,000‘, as if that changes everything.

    Also note all the other the information I posted in rebuttal, comment #86, and Wizard of OZ dodges.

    Here are official Jew Big Lie sources:

    [MORE]

    “The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators.

    US “Holocaust” Museum: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/introduction-to-the-holocaust

    What was the Holocaust?
    The Holocaust was the murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazis and their collaborators.
    Yad Vashem: https://www.yadvashem.org/holocaust/faqs.html

    The Holocaust was the murder by Nazi Germany of six million Jews. While the Nazi persecution of the Jews began in 1933, the mass murder was committed during World War II. It took the Germans and their accomplices four and a half years to murder six million Jews.
    “Holocaust” Teacher Resource Center: https://www.holocaust-trc.org/holocaust-defined/

    Want more?

    http://www.codoh.com

    • Replies: @anon
  117. anon[260] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wally

    What point are you making exactly? It doesn’t have anything to do with the declared WoZ position if that is correctly stated as being that 6 million is, as Colin Knight said, an approximation which got up after WW2 when no one had counted numbers seriously, and is now something that should be regarded as embarrassing when documentaries on aspects of the Holocaust are being made. You should pay attention.

  118. anon[248] • Disclaimer says:
    @Colin Wright

    Why did Holocaust take 20 yes to occupy human guilt , consciousness , and awareness ?
    It was only after 1967 war when this issue became the defining character influencing the relation between Jew and non Jew .

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  119. Theodore says:
    @Anon

    The “Final Solution” was a real policy and the Nazis were quite explicit with what it meant in every single document on it: resettlement / mass deportation of Jews from the German sphere of influence in Europe. This did in fact include the Benelux countries, as well as the rest of Europe under German control. After the invasion of Russia, the “Final Solution” became ‘resettlement of the Jews to the East’ and, after a time, “the Solution of the Jewish Problem has been postponed until after the war is over” (Source: The Schlegelberger letter)

    Like I said, this non-genocidal definition is confirmed by every single document on the “Final Solution” – none of them mention exterminating Jews. At best, the Holocaust believers claim “deportation” or “resettlement” meant “extermination”. Which is total nonsense, of course, they’re grasping at straws.

    As for “Why did the Nazis destroy everything [allegedly] incriminating?”

    Simply: They did not. At Majdanek, the Nazis destroyed the crematoria, but curiously not the supposed “Homicidal gas chambers” where Jews were allegedly murdered by the thousands – doesn’t make much sense, does it? At Auschwitz/Birkenau all crematorium facilities were dismantled prior to Soviet liberation but not the actual “Homicidal gas chambers” themselves. The Main Camp gas chamber rooms at Krema I and Block 11 were 100% intact on January 27,1945, the date Soviets occupied the Camp.

    The two most important gas chambers of the entire Holocaust Myth are Leichenkeller 1 of Krema II and Leichenkeller 1 of Krema III. Leichenkeller 1 of Krema II was/is almost entirely complete, with its floor and walls untouched. The roof consisting of two layers of waterproofing and a thick concrete slab roof have partially fallen into the room below. About 35% of the room is still easily accessible. Leichenkeller 1 of Krema III was also left in a highly “inspectable” state, but with its roof completely dropped.

    As for the rest of Auschwitz, it’s most certainly not “totally destroy[ed]” as you can visit it today and see.

  120. @Fool's Paradise

    I think the Romans killed a lot of Celts (not bothering about the most recent updates on where Western Europeans came from and when) before they started fighting Germans, considerably to the east of the Rhineland and gave up after being ambushed and slaughtered in the Teutoburg Forest in 9 AD by Germans led by the Roman trained Herman/Arminius.

    • Replies: @Fool's Paradise
  121. @Anon

    I’m happy to say we never had to chant the words of the sad depressive hero of Psalm 69 in our school chapel. More into stiff upper lip stuff.

    Here is what I found in the KJV:

    They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

    22 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

    23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

    24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.

    25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

    26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

    27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

    28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

    Not quite what your version says. What is the Hebrew – and what makes it a part of standard Judaic doctrine?

    But well done to find in 150 Psalms a line which, at a big stretch, can feed your prejudices in 2019.

  122. @anon

    I wonder if anyone can feed my speculation that it wasn’t just getting on their feet again after WW2 and working out who was left etc which naturally occupied European Jews wherever they were that got in the way of defining a Holocaust narrative which would be central to Jews, rather as the Crucifixion and Resurrection became for Christians a few decades on. There was also, no doubt, as at least a minor contributing factor, concern about Jewish guilt – from “how could we have been so weak/stupid/gullible?” to “how many Jews helped or sold out to the Nazis?”.

    In the US I guess there were any number of Communist Jews, many of them compromised by their work, or that of family or friends, for the Soviet Union, who had to concentrate on turning themselves from Trots to Neocons to put it crudely. That would have taken perhaps 20 years.

    And I suppose it took time too before the great story tellers, not least in Hollywood, were confident they knew how to make big bucks out of it. That would have happened gradually as novels were written and sank or succeeded and the reaction to more straightforward war films was assessed.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  123. Creechie says:
    @alexander

    And Finkelstein was dispossessed of his job for winningthat argument.

  124. @renfro

    I didn’t realise you were such a silly person . I had been thinking your comments might be the place to add something I had forgotten to post about Australia’s advantage with respect to any Jewish problem but you are evidently a fool so I won’t waste it here.

  125. @Anon

    I haven’t time for even the moderately passionate long rants so merely pick up your early reference to Jewish religion as the or a major problem (obviously not referring that of the Haredi nutters who are still a minority in Israel though outbreeding everyone). Given that most Ashkenazi Jews are effectively atheist and that Ashkenazi power and influence is much greater than Sephardi, Mizrahi et al put together you have reminded me that the real mystery about Jews is what holds those who identify strongly as Jews together. Just the tribe one grew up in with enough distinctive features to remind its members that they belong? That would I suppose be part of it. That it is a tribe rather than a religion is pretty clear IMO and the expression “tribe” is commonly used by Jews in a straighforward way.

    For those who don’t just want to rant about Kabbala and offensive parts of the Talmud it might be worth considering whether this gives some clues

    https://www.jta.org/2019/05/29/culture/i-told-my-fiance-not-to-convert-to-judaism-now-im-reconsidering

    One way of putting it is that synagogue and Friday night family dinner with traditional Jewish features fosters community and a sense of mutual support but more specifically the fact that Judaism is much more practice and ritual than theological dogma could be a key to understanding. I think Catholics used to have it in the humbler parishes where no one would have been in the slightest interested in theological questions.

    • Replies: @UncommonGround
    , @Anon
  126. renfro says:

    I had been thinking your comments might be the place to add something I had forgotten to post about Australia’s advantage with respect to any Jewish problem but you are evidently a fool so I won’t waste it here.

    So your reply to my observation that you made no comment about Israel’s confiscation of the Palestine children’s school building is about Australia’s advantage with respect to Jews and that I’m a fool ?

    So iow when I commented…….”Its not our imagination that you had not a word to say about the Jews confiscating and selling the Palestine children school house….but launched into a defense of Jews/Israel”………..your mind told you to post a reply about Jews and Australia and say nothing about the school house confiscation.

    Your mind is so diseased with defense of Israeli Jewishness that you are incapable of seeing that we see it in you.

  127. @renfro

    Did you not think you had said it all when you raised (I suppose it was you who first raised it) the destruction of schools for Palestinian children etc. . Or did you think your exposition so feeble that it needed someone to make some necessary grunts of approbation and confirmation?

    • Replies: @annamaria
  128. @Wizard of Oz

    You say that “Ashkenazi Jews are effectively atheist”. Some weeks ago Marc Ellis wrote an article talking about a crisis among some rabbis. But he said from the beginning that it wasn’t a religious crisis because (many, a few?) rabbis are anyway atheists and that their jobs is rather something like keeping the Jewish community functioning. This seems to be the primary function of the religion and the community. It’s something that is very strange in Western societies.

    Of course you don’t need a religion and such a group in order to have a sense of community and of mutual support. There may be a sense of familiarity in small villages where people see each other the whole time, people have their friends and families, they do things together according to their interests. You don’t need Judaism or Catholicism for that. I think that even in small places people don’t need Catholicism or religion for that. There are communities based in common activities, based on the fact that people know each other and are friends. People may help each other because they are friends, but not because they are both Catholics. And in the Church when they collect money to help someone, it’s mostly to help people in Africa or other poor places. There is even a lot of interest for foreigners in different places (I say this remembering the story of a woman who went from Germany to Russia by bycicle and everywhere people would invite her).

    We don’t have a religion in Western societies playing the role that Judaism apparently plays for Jews. People don’t have any kind of proximity with someone only because both of them are Catholics. People have affinities because of who they are. You can have communities of friends, of interests, of families in Western countries, but you hardly have a community with people that you don’t know only because you may have the same “religion”. That’s also why people from other cultures who want individually to integrate have been able to integrate and to assimilate (the difificulty comes when people come in huge numbers and want to keep their old ways).

    That suggests that your answer is not entirely satisfying. What is the sense of remaining a “Jew” in the West? It’s not because it offers something that the Catholic church offered traditionally but not anymore. Maybe there is also an ideological side.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  129. annamaria says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Your response is not just disrespectful towards renfro’s argument. Your response is casually amoral (feeble?) with regard to the victims of Israeli vicious supremacist and inhuman policies against the Israel-occupied native population.

    • Agree: renfro
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  130. @Wizard of Oz

    Yes, Wizard, so your rabbi who said that Jews, who originated a thousand miles to the East, were in Germany before the Germans were, was, uh,.. misinformed.

    • Replies: @Robjil
    , @Wizard of Oz
  131. Robjil says:
    @Fool's Paradise

    This is a very interesting article how the Askenazi genetic origins came about in Northern Italy. Jewish traders moved to the Rhineland. It was Germanic Lombardy at that time. The Germanic Lombards conquered Italy and captured many Italian slaves. The Jewish Rhineland traders bought these Italian slave girls. This why the Whiz says that the non-Jewish females that intermarried with the Jewish Rhineland traders weren’t Germanic even though the Jewish traders were in the Rhineland. So. he is right about that. The reason why is that there were few Germanic slaves to intermarry in the Rhineland at the time. Thus, mainly captured Italian female slaves were the mothers of the Ashkenazis.

    http://www.pienisalaliittotutkimus.com/2018/02/17/origins-of-the-ashkenazi-jews/

    “Ashkenazi Jews moved to Rhineland from Northern Italy, which at that time was Kingdom of Lombardy and Lombards (Langobards) had fully converted to the Catholic faith by the end of the 7th century. We may assume that Ashkenazi Jews could not marry Catholic Lombards. The Ashkenazi admixture with Italians in the time frame 550-1100 AD can only have been by Jewish males having children with Italian slave girls. The Torah accepts this practice: a man can have sex with only one wife and his slave girls. Many of the sons of Patriarch Jacob were with slave girls. As Langobards conquered most of Italy, they obtained many Italian slaves.

    Slave trade was a traditional Jewish occupation. The best known Jewish slave traders in Europe were the Radhanite Jews, who mostly traded spices and slaves. They had close contacts with Khazaria. Radhanites were not the ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews, but it is also known that in the 14th century the Christian population feared Ashkenazi Jews, who were known as slave traders. Therefore it is very likely that the population, which developed to Ashkenazi Jews, were slave traders or at least had Italian slaves.”

    • Agree: Fool's Paradise
  132. @UncommonGround

    Thanks. I certainly don’t think I have got very near to solving my puzzle though I am glad to know we see some of the complexities in much the same way. Your reference to a possible “ideological side” – although you don’t/ define “ideological”, which, if memory serves, often had a Marxist meaning which emphasised the group self interest underpinning ideology – draws attention to the lack of any specific reference to common love of or support for Israel in the article. I guess a kind of romantic Zionism could often be found in the mix with months on a kibbutz for the kids etc.

  133. @annamaria

    How pious. What have you added to his horror story which, as I recall it, did speak for itself to any decent person – including no doubt many Israelis whose response is indeed something that might have been added?

  134. @Fool's Paradise

    I don’t understand your “so” (or your “1000 miles to the east” unless you mean “south-east” or are returning to Koestler’s pre-DNA fable). The first barbarians the Romans fought were Celts (if you don’t count Etruscans and the tribes neighbouring early Rome). Way back, remember the Celts sacked Rome in 387 BC, and the Germanic tribes didn’t breed up and move west and south till much later. The rabbi didn’t say, btw, “in Germany”. As I said his words were “in the Rhineland”.

  135. @renfro

    Dude – ignore him. He gets paid by the number of responses he makes and the degree to which he clutters the thread.

    • Replies: @renfro
  136. hamtok says:
    @Anon

    Dershowitz also used Jewish power to have DePaul university deny Norman Finkelstein tenure. This alone should disqualify him from making any assertions on ethics, since he is so singularly lacking in it.

  137. renfro says:
    @Cloak And Dagger

    yes….I will ignore him from here on.

  138. @Wizard of Oz

    ‘…There was also, no doubt, as at least a minor contributing factor, concern about Jewish guilt – from “how could we have been so weak/stupid/gullible?” to “how many Jews helped or sold out to the Nazis?”…’

    A point I read a long time ago — before the Holocaust became a cult object to be approached with reverence, back when it was simply a particularly horrific aspect of World War Two — was that few survived the extermination camps who hadn’t somehow been complicit themselves. They’d been a kapo, clubbing unwilling victims into the gas chambers, or they’d been a cook, surreptitiously stealing food meant for others, or somehow they’d done something unsavory to survive.

    This isn’t to condemn them — unless I had the misfortune of being in their shoes, I have no reason to be confident I’d do better — but it is to suggest that many of the survivors must have had something to hide. Hence perhaps the weird preponderance of obviously fraudulent accounts of ‘how I survived the camps.’ Perhaps many who actually did would just rather not discuss what it took. Disproportionately, it would only be those willing to lie who would have tales they’d care to tell.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  139. @Wizard of Oz

    1,000 miles to the east meant Judea, where the followers of the genocidal god Yahweh were busy exterminating all their neighbors and wife and children and cattle. When I was in Rhineland I was surrounded by people who spoke German, not Hebrew, and I imagine that the people who lived in that region for thousands of years were of that origin, not from Judea. So there were some Jewish traders, but one can hardly say, as your rabbi does, that they were there before the Germans. The “Germans” or people like them, were there forever, indigenous, born-and-raised.

  140. @Fool's Paradise

    The Jews of the Rhineland were Askenazi whose race began when males from Judea intermarried with Roman women and then fled Northwards into the Rhine valley after Rome fell in the 5th century.

    • Agree: Fool's Paradise
  141. @Fool's Paradise

    While my casual conversation did not include discussion of dates such as those implicitly brought in by Keff Stryker it is fair to say that you are persisting in misunderstanding. Try considering the fact that there were Gauls and other Celts in the Rhineland before the Germanic tribes got there. That being so it was quite possible that Jewish merchants – successors perhaps to Phoenicians/Carthaginians – were there on the Rhine – maybe trading with Germanics to the east – before it was occupied by the Germanic speaking peoples.

    As it happens the reading you have prompted me to do has led me to think that the Jews the rabbi could have been referring to, maybe not relevant to my point about Yiddish not being Khazarian, or even Slavic, were not those who moved from northern Italy to the Rhineland with their imported female-line European genes. That seems to have happened later.

    • Replies: @Fool's Paradise
    , @Anon
  142. @Colin Wright

    Yes, curiously enough it seems likely that repentant or unrepentant old SS men are possibly closer to telling the unvarnished truth than a Jew who had to push people into what he knew was a gas chamber. The former can say he was doing what he believed in then whereas the latter, though able to say that he did what it took to survive and that no one was killed who wouldn’t have been anyway, has probably been telling what you call “fraudulent accounts” including ones that give him a minor hero status unavailable to ex SS men who would try and stay schtum and pretend they weren’t there – except at reunions in the Deutsche Keller in Buenos Aires…..

  143. @alexander

    We watched that interview. Finklestein always remained polite while most of the time Dershowitz repeatedly and flagrantly interrupted Finklestein in a highly aggressive manner. It wasn’t a matter of “who won the debate,” it was this huge revelation of how low-brow Harvard professor would gravel on the earth like some insidious Black Plague creature.

    The man sickened us. What a hate-filled fanatic he is.
    Chomsky has called Dershowitz a “liar” and a coward. That’s being gracious. We concluded he was “The Scum of The Earth” and should be forever banished from the media, from lecturing at universities or writing books.

    Maybe someone should pilot him into the largest Palestinian urban center and drop him off. Let’s see how long he would survive.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  144. @Wizard of Oz

    Wizard, I objected to your rabbi saying that “there were Jews in the Rhineland before the Germans got there”, as if Jews were established and Germans were interlopers. Yes, there were probably Jewish merchants etc., but they were a handful among the forever-natives of that land, whatever language they spoke. When I was young and dumb I was in the U.S. Army stationed in Bamberg, Germany, in ’56 and ’57. What a pretty town, not bombed by war criminals Churchill and FDR because there is a pope buried there, I heard. No other towns in Bavaria or the rest of Germany were spared. Bamberg had (still does) a great symphony orchestra, and a bar that brewed and served rauchbier (smoked), and I remember musicians from the symphony coming in for a pint. After they played, I’m sure.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  145. Well you were hard on my rabbi who was only giving a lively reply to my sudden thought that the Ashkenazim coming from the kingdom of the Khazars and speaking Yiddish was nonsensical.

    Now that I have to accept that Ashkenazim seem to have their roots in Lombardy I have to give up my fantasy that, much earlier, lively Celtic girls latched on to spunky young Jewish merchants waiting in vain for a wife to be sent from the Holy Land. I may not have to give up my consequential joke that I would henceforth call him cousin, especially given my observation that lots of Jews had brown hair and blue eyes, as I do (though the blue eyes tend to be different), and also red facial hair.

  146. @Rubicon727

    “banished” = banned, deplatformed, censored like Charles Murray, John Derbyshire et al.? Surely not?

  147. @Fool's Paradise

    And yes, you revive happy memories of old unspoiled Germany. But when I went back decades later and stood on a terrace of the Marburg Schloss I could find the street where I had lived by reference to the railway crossing but the forest across the road fron No.27 ****** Strasse had been completely replaced by boring houses.

    • Replies: @Fool's Paradise
  148. @Wizard of Oz

    “Pave Paradise, put up a parking lot!”

  149. Anon[195] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    The Jews were invited north by Frankish Kings (who some think were crypto-Jews, a fact that would coincide with the heavy Jewish concentration in places like Flanders). Though, I would assume that the primary Ashkenazi stew was boiled much earlier when the Indo-Aryan elite ruled over the Semitic Hurrians that later became the Hyksos / the House of Joseph and Israel (different from Judah).

    Germanic Celts are Germanic. In fact, they make up most of Germany and are mixed in with pure German genetics. No one refers to only I1 and I2 haplotypes as Germanic. Take the case of the Dutch, whom no one would ever call “Celtic”. The Dutch are nordicized genetic Celts, for the most part, who have been refining the admixture over a long period of time (likely before their migration to Western Europe). True Germanics, of the male line, only make up about 10 percent of Europe in the most “Germanic” areas except in the heart of Scandinavia where they comprise up to 40% of the population. Most areas that look exceedingly Germanic merely have a highly nordicized Celtic population. After a while, you can become good at determining how long any one population of Celts has been refining their race through Germanic admixture. Newer groups, like the Northern Scots, look like blond Celts. Older groups, like the Dutch, look like slightly more potato-y Scandis.

  150. Tsigantes says:
    @annamaria

    Bravo annamarie – as ever!
    And bravo Gilad for another brave stab of rationality against the Goliath of Jerusalemite irrationality.

  151. Tsigantes says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Not sure where to enter his conversation – but – the hebrews themselves were a late coming tribe to the Mediterranean littoral, with their first recorded mention being 586 BC when Nebuchadnezzar scooped them up along with other troublemaking groups and enslaved them in Babylon. The fact that his armies could do this is proof that they were not numerous – and easy to round up. This is LATE history in terms of this region. The Hebrews never conquered Palestine or even Judea…either then or now really, despite today’s brutishness. They have always been an invading group with no claim to the land (apart from their own invented claim).

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  152. #Anti-Semitism.mechanism Alan Dershowitz.

  153. @Tsigantes

    A naughty thought occurs to me. A smart revisionist, instead of making a martyr of himself in defying anti Holocaust denial legislation might use a formulation like “it is perhaps not really surprisimg that many people still refuse to acknowledge that the antipathy of Nazis to Jews went so far as deliberate killing or working to death of several million European Jews when those who most obviously seek to take advantage of the Holocaust story and guilt about it lay a claim to the the land of Israel, to the exclusion of non Jews, all based on the story of the genocidal psychopath who allegedly led a motley band of chancers to the borders of the established Canaanite people which is now known to be nothing like the Bible story that used yo be part of oir common mythology”.

    • Replies: @Tsigantes
    , @Anon
  154. Tsigantes says:

    Something like that 😉

  155. Tsigantes says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    We say in Greece ‘The priest blesses his own beard’.

  156. El Dato says:

    He complains that Leftists single out Israel for criticism. “Where are your demonstrations on behalf of the oppressed Tibetans, Georgians, Syrians, Armenians, Kurds, or even Ukrainians?” he asks.

    The converse of the “Muh Holocaust” argument.

    1) “I’m so being critized unfairly! Look at all those others.”
    2) “Let’s not talk about those others! Build a monument to my suffering & persecution!”

    We have had a few genocides and assorted ultrakills, some of them performed with gusto by The Tribe Itself, throughout history. But it’s always THE holocaust. Or maybe Pharaoh (who wasn’t even historically involved at all) if needed.

  157. Anon[505] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I haven’t time for even the moderately passionate long rants

    You may wish to reference your multi-paragraph text wall to which I was replying before you see it fit to accuse anyone else of a “moderately long rant”.

    Moreover, 1/3rd to 1/2 of my reply’s length is accounted for by quotes from your prior post. Before you post such lengthy text walls, you should consider the time it will take to rebut any response. Alternatively you can post more concisely, not post at all, or simply stop complaining.

    so merely pick up your early reference to Jewish religion as the or a major problem (obviously not referring that of the Haredi nutters who are still a minority in Israel though outbreeding everyone). Given that most Ashkenazi Jews are effectively atheist

    Those “haredi nutters” do not believe in anything unorthodox. What they believe in is the full, orthodox context of the Jewish religion. They are not the religious deviants in Judaism. They are the idealistic core of Judaism, and the foremost political force in the Jewish State, excepting for the orthodox tradition (eg: Lithuanian) that minimizes the Kabbalah in favor of greater emphasis on the Talmud but who are vastly fewer in number. Even between those groups, the differences are minimal and have everything to do with practice rather than the Jewish religious ultimate goals for the world that they both share and that we have an issue with.

    Ashkenazi Jews are “atheist” except for the great mass of those that aren’t. Except for those that are so called “atheist” in the presence of non-Jews but are happy to take with them the ethno-supremacist bits of the religion, to include their religiously mandated entitlement to Jewish nepotism and nationalism and their support of the Jewish State. Who happily forward politics in this nation that are merely a secularized version of the cultural and nationalist hostility against all other tribes that the Jewish books recommend.

    If those Jews are atheist, then there is no justification whatsoever for their active cultural continuation within a separate ethno-political group whose sole function is the perpetuation of that religion and its stated genocidal goals.

    and that Ashkenazi power and influence is much greater than Sephardi, Mizrahi et al put together you have reminded me that the real mystery about Jews is what holds those who identify strongly as Jews together.

    Its not a mystery. Your books promise world domination in your Messianic period. Its easier to accomplish those attractive goals with more people that are in more places. Mystery solved.

    For those who don’t just want to rant about Kabbala and offensive parts of the Talmud it might be worth considering whether this gives some clues

    Clues to what? You need to clarify your writing.

    What do we care about your cultural unity when you exist among us with the stated goals in your texts that call for our total destruction?

    Are you so self absorbed that you can not see how we would not look past your extreme hostility toward all other peoples, to include us, to see something cute in your ethnic-cultural unity? Give us all a break. My prior post stands. I suggest anyone reading this post read that one.

    One way of putting it is that synagogue and Friday night family dinner with traditional Jewish features fosters community and a sense of mutual support but more specifically the fact that Judaism is much more practice and ritual than theological dogma could be a key to understanding.

    Except that it is not more practice than eschatology (of the genocidal, supremacist Messianic period). This eschatology is the entire point of your religion and all of the culture surrounding it. Again, forgive us if we don’t dismiss the goals in light of your entitlement to the same community that most Jews openly despise in non-Jewish groups because it is an impediment to the chaos and destruction of all of the “guardian angels” of the nations preceding your Messianic period.

    I think Catholics used to have it in the humbler parishes where no one would have been in the slightest interested in theological questions.

    Where these cultural Catholics differ from Jews is that the religion of these Catholics does not believe in a period of world domination wherein most if not all other tribes have been genocided when not enslaved.

    These cultural Catholics do not sustain and perpetuate such a political drive by their mere cultural participation. These so called atheist Jews do.

    Finally, I take issue with the Jewish claim and your implied concept of atheism. Religious Judaism, itself, is very close to atheism. It doesn’t believe in a metaphysically located heaven or hell. It only believes in the Jewish heaven on Earth that would be very well enjoyed by any Jewish atheist. Parallel with (other) Asiatic religions, Good and Evil are relative concepts and both can be used to the final Messianic goal of the Jewish people. Your religion has elevated the Jewish people to the central role, with every action justified by its service to their benefit. Claiming that your god signed off for you to do that does not change that you have raised the Jewish people to the central position in your pseudo-religion (which is in fact merely political instruction toward world domination). Rhetorical question: how is that not compatible with atheism?

    To put this all in perspective: your problem is not victory of defeat in nuanced arguments over the characterization of participation in Judaism.

    Here is your present problem: I no longer care to debate Jews.

    I no longer care for the media’s social and political positions to be almost solely comprised of what is good for the Jews. I no longer care to entertain disingenuous and hypocritical Jewish rants, often by the same author, whose subtext is to justify either why they are deserving of a true nation or that no other tribe is.

    I consider these discussions to be over and settled. I’m far from alone. If it is any consolation: other than to forward the goals of the Messianic period, the sociopolitical tactics of your leaders was always to buy time and nothing more. This was always inevitable.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  158. Anon[118] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    “it is perhaps not really surprisimg that many people still refuse to acknowledge that the antipathy of Nazis to Jews went so far as deliberate killing or working to death of several million European Jews when those who most obviously seek to take advantage of the Holocaust story and guilt about it lay a claim to the the land of Israel, to the exclusion of non Jews, all based on the story of the genocidal psychopath who allegedly led a motley band of chancers to the borders of the established Canaanite people which is now known to be nothing like the Bible story that used yo be part of oir common mythology”.

    You do realize that this is a single sentence, right?

    I tried to read it three times and I think that I have come away with the basic gist. However, I recommend rewriting it.

    I often write the content that is represented in your suggestion in the various comments sections on this website and others.

    The more relevant perspective, however, is that the Jewish god’s command for the Canaanite genocide is always modern instruction for the Jewish religion and its adherents. As is the rest of the Tanakh’s mythology.

    This fact is relevant to the pre-War Jewish presence in Germany and everywhere else.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  159. @Anon

    I would admit that my first drafts, and even second and thord, rarely follow the great stylistic example of Papa Hemingway but in this case the long sentence is offered as part of the tactics. While the enemy is picking his way through the barbed wire you have time to raise your Tommy gun and fire.

    • Replies: @Anon
  160. @Anon

    That could have been read as an an interesting exposition by a quite thoughtful ,and intelligent and moderately well read author. But it was spoiled for me at least by a consequence of your extreme self absorption. No one who has read even half a fair sample of my relevant comments would keep on calling me a Jew. No one is bound to remember or research my comments except that when you choose to call someone a Jew ny way of attacking them and their argument both ordinary courtesy and prudence require that you get it right.

    As an Anglican (Episcopalian) atheist I am conscious of not belonging to a community comparable to what I perceive of the Jewish, at least not by ancient ties to the Church of England (paternal and maternal great uncles were clerics) or continuing regular services and ceremonies. So I continue to wonder about the differences.

    True my family has not had the experience of being persecuted within the last 85 years as half Australia’s Jews probably have. Nor have I any impulse to support a safe haven against anti-Wizardism – even one which might provide excellent gap years for one’s young family members. Although the potential network of an old Anglo-Celtic Aussie who has lived nearly all his life in one big Australian city to might extend to old school associations and the odd sporting or other club, his fellow professionals and say a few opera patrons I get the feeling that being part of the Jewish community would extend that hypothetical non Jewish Aussie”s 100 to 400 people to something more like 500 to 5000. Maybe that was the point of it, but, if so, it is not going to be easy to maintain that ethnocentricity in a peaceful world where they grow up prosperous despite some Jewish mothers redoubling their efforts and the post WW2 establishment of Jewish private schools.

  161. A question to Gilad Atzmon: Does he consider that the Israelis snipers,shooting the unarmed Palestinians, an unethical but in the same time rational,because it gives a clear message to the rest of the Palestinians that they risk their own death or injury if they come close to the boarder fence?! Does he agrees with such “rationality”?

  162. Anon[145] • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I would admit that my first drafts, and even second and thord, rarely follow the great stylistic example of Papa Hemingway but in this case the long sentence is offered as part of the tactics. While the enemy is picking his way through the barbed wire you have time to raise your Tommy gun and fire.

    One doesn’t need to be Papa Hemingway to avoid ten line run-on sentences. One only needs to graduate middle-school.

    Except that there was no report to follow from your supposed weapon. But I get the need to deflect using quasi-sage comedy and a “it’s strategic / cool to be unintelligible” position. Meanwhile, the rest of us are here trying not to waste each other’s time. Carry–on.

  163. “no report to follow”. Meaning? Relevance? Assuming your middle school education was adequate one needs to look elsewhere for your insistence on obscuring the point, and, not least for complaining about your having wasted time in reading and replying to something which began with fair warning (qv).

  164. Parfois1 says:
    @Colin Wright

    …was going to throw them all out, but the good Queen Esther intervened and persuaded him to them to stay, so that’s how they were still in Portugal, and so on.

    You are being fed a load of bulldust, I’m afraid. That’s a fairy tale for dimwits around here.

    I checked the list of Queens of Portugal and… no Esther.

    The Jews were expelled from Portugal about that time (1495?) never to be admitted into the country again. Some “converted” to Christianity but were periodically purged through auto-da-fe (burned).

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