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Vietnam War Montage, Credit: Wikimedia Commons
Vietnam War Montage, Credit: Wikimedia Commons
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War may be thought of in two ways. First, as a football game between armies, in which the function of the citizenry is to cheer for the home team. In football, success is measured in points scored, yardage gained, brilliance of play, and time of possession. In war as football, it is battles won, enemies killed, territory conquered. The crucial goal is to defeat the other side’s armed forces. Doing so constitutes victory.

To one who sees war in this way, as militaries invariably do, America will always come out ahead on points since we fight only countries hopelessly inferior in military terms. In Vietnam, Laos, Iraq, and Afghanistan the US killed vastly more people than it suffered dead, won almost all battles by overwhelming material superiority, and easily captured any territory it chose.

By this reasoning, it can be argued that America won in Vietnam. When the GIs pulled out, the South was a functioning country by the standards of the Third World. The Viet Cong were still blowing up bridges, but Saigon was repairing them. The VC had no chance of conquering the country unaided. America had won.

One may also view war otherwise, as an element in a struggle in which one country seeks to make another country do something it wants. Victory consists in accomplishing this. In Vietnam, America–or, important distinction, the US government–wanted to prevent South Vietnam from falling to the Communists. The North wanted the US to go away so that it could conquer the South. The US went, and the North conquered. It got what it wanted. The North won, QED.

From the footballer’s point of view, the United States won in Iraq. It killed huge numbers of people while losing few, destroyed whole cities, and never lost a battle. Yet it got none of the things it wanted: a puppet government, permanent large military bases, and the oil. A dead loss. If anybody won, it was Israel or Iran. In Afghanistan, America as usual devastated the country and killed hugely and with impunity, thus winning the football game–but accomplished nothing.

To those who see war as football, the principal target is the enemy’s military. To those who see war as a means of making the other side do something, the aim is to destroy the enemy’s will to fight. This includes the will of the enemy’s population.

ORDER IT NOW

In Vietnam, the North knew it had no chance of decisively defeating American forces. It might, however, drag the war on and on, and on, and on, steadily inflicting casualties, until the enemy’s will to fight collapsed. In the North, this was a deliberate strategy. To win in the sense of making the US do what it wanted, it didn’t have to win militarily. It just had to keep from losing–and inflict casualties, and casualties, and casualties. It suffered many more dead than it inflicted, but it had the will to keep fighting. And inflict casualties. And casualties.

There were about sixty kids in my graduating class at King George High School, Virginia, in 1964. Doug Grey died with a 12.7 round through the head. Studley Franklin, paraplegic. Ricky Reed, face full of shrapnel and severe eye damage. Chip Thompson, neck wounds. At least two others, whom I won’t name, became severe alcoholics. Many others went. Everyone knew all of these kids.

The military, with its football mindset, expects the public to rally round the flag and support the wars. As the antiwar rallies grew and became huge, and kids fled to Canada and sought deferments and hid in the Navy, the military felt betrayed. To this day many veterans remain bitter at what they see as treason, cowardice, lack of patriotism. They were fighting and dying, seeing friends bleeding to death, choking on their own blood, burned alive in flaming Amtracs–and college kids were smoking dope and getting laid and chanting “Hell no, we won’t got.” The vets were, and are, embittered. They won, they believe, but the hippies and lefties stabbed them in the back.

And this was what the North Vietnamese counted on. They couldn’t bomb American cities, as America was bombing theirs, but they could keep the body bags flowing. Two hundred dead a week was a modest figure, with others mutilated, and they came back to towns and cities in bags or wheel chairs. Many of them told friends, “Don’t go. It’s godawful. It’s pointless. Don’t go.” It added up. It was a Cold Warrior’s war, and a high-school kid’s fight.

America’s will to fight crumbled, exactly as the North hoped. They–you can read this in their documents from the war–knew what they were doing.

I was on campus for some years of this, both before and after going to Asia as a Marine. The boys didn’t want to fight in a remote war that meant nothing to them. Their girlfriends were against it. Usually their parents agreed. In Vietnam itself morale flagged. Fraggings came. Mutinies and things perilously close occurred.

Tet came. Seeing war as football, many insist, correctly, that Tet was a military disaster for the North. Vietnamese losses were huge and the Americans, taken by surprise, retook everything they had lost with comparative ease.

But, in the all-important terms of the will to fight, it was an American disaster. Soldiers don’t understand this. It convinced much of the American public–whether rightly or wrongly doesn’t matter at all–that the US was not winning and couldn’t win.

ORDER IT NOW

America declared victory and left–the first part of what the North wanted. In 1975 when Ban Me Thuot fell and the NVA rolled South, the more warlike in America wanted to send the Air Force to save the South and said that the US had weakened its allies by not supplying them with fuel and so on. Some said that the Democrats in Congress were treasonous and should be tried. As you like. But the public was so sick of that war than any attempt to restart it was going to have Congressmen hanging from lamp posts.

The strategy of the North, which might be regarded as a form of psywar, had worked.

Can America be defeated this way again? Unlikely. The all-voluntary military means that body bags will contain only elements of society that the ruling classes don’t care about. Wars now chiefly involve bombing enemies who have no way of fighting back. Reliance on drones means no casualties at all, and the use of robots in ground combat, long a pipe dream, is nearing reality. The media are under control. America still loses its wars in the sense of not getting what it wants, but the public doesn’t care and you cannot sap a drone’s will. Here is the lesson of Vietnam.

(Republished from Fred on Everything by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Foreign Policy, History • Tags: American Military, Vietnam War 
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  1. Priss Factor [AKA "Dominique Francon Society"] says: • Website

    US fought a bloody civil war to preserve the Union.

    A nation divided in tragic indeed.

    So, it was very wrong for US to have divided Korea and Vietnam. Tragic decisions.

    US also divided Palestine and then helped Jews carry out massive ethnic expulsion of the native population to create a Jewish state.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    you forgot the most important one of all. usa keeping taiwan separate from china. this alone ensures hate from china forever.

    china is smart enough to not show any displeasure openly. at least till they fully start to flex their own military muscles in the near future.

    , @Quartermaster
    We didn't divide Korea, Vietnam or China. The Reds did that on their own.

    The business on "Palestine" is the same. The UN created Israel and every Arab country around her immediately went to war to snuff the country in the cradle. Israel has defended herself and the Arabs have lost at every step of the way.

    You blame the US for things she never touched.
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  2. Thing is due to deracinated youth, it’s not hard to get kids to do crippling infrastructure attacks.

    Whether by bomb or ddos america is vulnerable.

    Read More
  3. Good one, Fred. Kudos. America is all done. Corruption rules. The gubmint is so disgustingly corrupt as to be indistinguishable from the Shanghai/Hong Kong complex of yesteryear.

    Meh. Not my problem. I’ll be dead. Good luck, kids. Insist on the best packing crate you can find.

    Read More
  4. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Bottom line, they live there and we don’t. They can fight for thirty years, they can fight a hundred; we can’t because nothing of ours is at stake. They had something to fight for and we didn’t. Underestimating potential opponents and overestimating ourselves is just typical American hubris. The down ski jacket I recently bought at an upscale name-brand store is made in Vietnam. Time and the opportunity to earn some money heals all wounds, apparently.

    Read More
  5. Good article, but historians will object to this statement:

    “Tet was a military disaster for the North. Vietnamese losses were huge and the Americans, taken by surprise, retook everything they had lost with comparative ease.”

    Ease? Marines in the Battle of Hue will disagree. Soldiers who fled Kham Duc, Lang Vei, and Thon La Chu after hundreds of GIs were killed will disagree.

    But the key part is that Westy had assured everyone the war was won and American troops were mopping up when all hell broke loose. Then he demanded more troops to “win”, and President Johnson said hell no!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Chris Mallory

    Ease? Marines in the Battle of Hue will disagree. Soldiers who fled Kham Duc, Lang Vei, and Thon La Chu after hundreds of GIs were killed will disagree.
     
    Did you miss where Fred wrote the word "comparative "?

    Compared to Korea and WW2, these battles had comparatively few casualties.

    We had 216 dead and 1500 wounded in Hue in what was a month long battle.

    To the best of my research, the other three battles you listed produced fewer than 50 American dead combined. Yes, they did have a higher number of ARVN casualties, but it was their country.
  6. Tark Marg says: • Website

    As I see it, the USA has not won a large scale land war since Korea in 1953 (which was actually a stalemate), with the possible exception of the first Iraq war, which was short and sharp.

    After Korea, Vietnam, Iraq 2003-11, and Afghanistan 2001-present have all been defeats or getting there.

    Paradoxically, casualties/population have been dropping by an order of magnitude at every war. Thus the civil war saw 600000 casualties out of a population of 30 million, while WWII saw 300000 out of 140 million, Korea 35000 out of 150 million, Vietnam 58000 out of 200 million, Afghanistan 2000 and Iraq 2003-11 4500 out of 300 million.

    Yet despite sharply dropping casualties, the USA has been on a decades long losing streak, irrespective of the merits or absence thereof of these wars.

    Why is this?

    I believe there are many factors involved, such as the ubiquity of television images and the length of some of these wars, but a major component is the growing empathobesity of the USA and the West in general since the 60s. Not coincidentally it is after the 60s that the USA begins its losing streak.

    I have analyzed this phenomenon in detail here:

    http://tarkmarg.blogspot.sg/2015/12/the-rise-and-decline-of-west-why-and.html?m=1

    Read More
    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith

    Yet despite sharply dropping casualties, the USA has been on a decades long losing streak, irrespective of the merits or absence thereof of these wars.
     
    Sorry Tark, I won't read your analysis because your initial assessment is incorrect. American wars are not fought for ideology, nor territory. American wars, and the funding of the American military, is carried out exclusively to funnel money to the rich. There is no other purpose or design.
    , @KA
    " To win in the sense of making the US do what it wanted, it didn’t have to win militarily. It just had to keep from losing–and inflict casualties, and casualties, and casualties. It suffered many more dead than it inflicted, but it had the will to keep fighting. And inflict casualties. And casualties."

    I think my 2 cents on this and your observation is complementary . It ties two things together .

    Citizen of mature prosperous country will not fight a war unless forced by economy or draft . Citizen will not take the treacherous uncertainty involved for a pittance . Pittance involves salary and some VA treatment for PTSD unless choices are bleak destitution .

    This is another reason that a mature prosperous civilization will not win wars . Life was cheap to Vietnamese but not the land,peace,and prospect for future . Life was cheap to confederates and those opposing the Confederate in 1860s but not the land,peace and the prospect of maintaining their own world views . Same can be of the Chinese and Indian or Ottoman empires . Britain ,France and Span in the early days of the empire can rally people to join army for booty ,girls,and god .After a while they could not while the emerging foes could .( People may call it the loss of the will power to fight )


    America with the mindset of Pilgrim or even of Confederate 2 centuries later could easily have occupied and pacified Iraq and Afghanistan .
  7. Killing for elites to rule over faraway peoples. A mug’s game. To Hell with it.

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  8. joe webb says:

    Fred, you are an idiot. Joe Webb, or a just a worn-out comic with lousy jokes.

    Read More
  9. @Carlton Meyer
    Good article, but historians will object to this statement:

    "Tet was a military disaster for the North. Vietnamese losses were huge and the Americans, taken by surprise, retook everything they had lost with comparative ease."

    Ease? Marines in the Battle of Hue will disagree. Soldiers who fled Kham Duc, Lang Vei, and Thon La Chu after hundreds of GIs were killed will disagree.

    But the key part is that Westy had assured everyone the war was won and American troops were mopping up when all hell broke loose. Then he demanded more troops to "win", and President Johnson said hell no!

    Ease? Marines in the Battle of Hue will disagree. Soldiers who fled Kham Duc, Lang Vei, and Thon La Chu after hundreds of GIs were killed will disagree.

    Did you miss where Fred wrote the word “comparative “?

    Compared to Korea and WW2, these battles had comparatively few casualties.

    We had 216 dead and 1500 wounded in Hue in what was a month long battle.

    To the best of my research, the other three battles you listed produced fewer than 50 American dead combined. Yes, they did have a higher number of ARVN casualties, but it was their country.

    Read More
  10. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountain"] says:

    I never knew that going to war could be so much fun. A “tour-of-duty” for a jock-sniffing White Guys(White Guy Trump Bros)s during a time of war:you can fight against ISIS by going to a football stadium gulp down gallons of buds down your gullet…stuff your face with hot dogs…and yell “WHAT S STUD”…while Native Born White American Working Class Teenage Males…the varsity football benchwarmers and scrubs…have their limbs…heads…penises(NYT font page story about penis transplants from cadavers surgically attached to a Afghan Marine Vet) blown-off protecting White Guy Jock-Sniffers(White Guy Trump Bros) freedom to go to NCAA-NFL football stadiums and yell “WHAT A STUD” and be homo normed by the homo-friendly NFL which a few days ago helped to put transgenered pedophile perverts into the little girls bathrooms of North Carolina.

    Read More
  11. @Tark Marg
    As I see it, the USA has not won a large scale land war since Korea in 1953 (which was actually a stalemate), with the possible exception of the first Iraq war, which was short and sharp.

    After Korea, Vietnam, Iraq 2003-11, and Afghanistan 2001-present have all been defeats or getting there.

    Paradoxically, casualties/population have been dropping by an order of magnitude at every war. Thus the civil war saw 600000 casualties out of a population of 30 million, while WWII saw 300000 out of 140 million, Korea 35000 out of 150 million, Vietnam 58000 out of 200 million, Afghanistan 2000 and Iraq 2003-11 4500 out of 300 million.

    Yet despite sharply dropping casualties, the USA has been on a decades long losing streak, irrespective of the merits or absence thereof of these wars.

    Why is this?

    I believe there are many factors involved, such as the ubiquity of television images and the length of some of these wars, but a major component is the growing empathobesity of the USA and the West in general since the 60s. Not coincidentally it is after the 60s that the USA begins its losing streak.

    I have analyzed this phenomenon in detail here:

    http://tarkmarg.blogspot.sg/2015/12/the-rise-and-decline-of-west-why-and.html?m=1

    Yet despite sharply dropping casualties, the USA has been on a decades long losing streak, irrespective of the merits or absence thereof of these wars.

    Sorry Tark, I won’t read your analysis because your initial assessment is incorrect. American wars are not fought for ideology, nor territory. American wars, and the funding of the American military, is carried out exclusively to funnel money to the rich. There is no other purpose or design.

    Read More
  12. mtn cur says:

    It is lovely how football play diagrams mimic battle maps, with passing games as airborne, armor as running backs and cheering morons as cheering morons.

    Read More
  13. Rehmat says:

    War and Football are not the same. War even if lost several times, is cheered by the establishment and mass media that made billions $s out of it. But if Football team loses twice in a row – loses a bundle of money.

    Yes, I know both the wars and American sports teams are controlled by the Zionists. That’s why both applies racism against non-Whites.

    On March 11, 2016, UK’s top tennis player Andy Murray (Jewish) demanded that top Russian female tennis player Maria Yuryevna Sharapova must be suspended for tested positive for Meldonium, the so-called “performance enhancing drug”.

    Richard Pound (Jewish), former president of World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), has long been running a vicious anti-Sharapova campaign to get her banned from taking part in the 2016 Olympics Games in Brazil.

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/03/14/jews-and-international-sports/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sherman
    Hey Homer

    I'm glad you're such a sports fan.

    I bet you and your goat will represent Pakistan in the Olympic goat racing tournament!

    Sherm
  14. macilrae says:

    Fred, as he almost always does, writes with wit and wisdom.

    Thing is, consider how many intelligent Americans realize this, yet, despite all that combined intelligence, successive administrations continue to do the same things with absolute impunity – the next one promising to outdo the last. Perhaps the same force that has put forward Trump and Sanders will actually succeed in 2020 – but hopefully with candidates of better quality.

    Otherwise there is no remedy for those who are thus outraged. Like the government, the media have been subverted and pretty soon the Internet will be too: sites like this one will disappear. The only reason that hasn’t happened yet is because, self-evidently, it has not been able to make too much difference.

    Read More
  15. Agent76 says:

    Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. speech at Stanford on April 14, 1967

    This speech is known as “The other America”

    Read More
  16. Sherman says:
    @Rehmat
    War and Football are not the same. War even if lost several times, is cheered by the establishment and mass media that made billions $s out of it. But if Football team loses twice in a row - loses a bundle of money.

    Yes, I know both the wars and American sports teams are controlled by the Zionists. That's why both applies racism against non-Whites.

    On March 11, 2016, UK’s top tennis player Andy Murray (Jewish) demanded that top Russian female tennis player Maria Yuryevna Sharapova must be suspended for tested positive for Meldonium, the so-called “performance enhancing drug”.

    Richard Pound (Jewish), former president of World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), has long been running a vicious anti-Sharapova campaign to get her banned from taking part in the 2016 Olympics Games in Brazil.

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/03/14/jews-and-international-sports/

    Hey Homer

    I’m glad you’re such a sports fan.

    I bet you and your goat will represent Pakistan in the Olympic goat racing tournament!

    Sherm

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rehmat
    Sorry Sharon, I rather take a dog to race at the next Olympics, but unfortunately the best dog was killed by Israeli Jewish brothers by stoning.

    Israel daily YNet reported on June 16, 2011 that a Jerusalem rabbinical court recently sentenced a wandering dog (considered an impure animal by Halacha) to death by stoning. The cruel sentence stemmed from the suspicion that the spirit of a famous secular lawyer, who insulted the court’s judges 20 years ago, had been transferred into the dog’s body.

    The judgement was probably based on Exodus 21:28: “If a bull gores a man or a woman to death, the bull must be stoned to death, and its meat must not be eaten. But the owner of the bull will not be held responsible”.

    “The dog entered the Monetary Affairs Court near the ultra-Orthodox neighborhood of Mea Shearim. The dog scared the court’s visitors and, to their surprise, refused to leave even after they attempted to drive him away. One of the judges suddenly recalled that about 20 years ago, a famous secular lawyer who insulted the court was cursed by the panel of judges, who wished that his spirit would move on to the body of a dog. The lawyer passed away several years ago. Still offended, one of the judges sentenced the poor animal to death by stoning, recruiting the neighborhood’s children to carry out the order. Luckily, the dog managed to escape,” reported YNet.

    https://rehmat1.com/2011/06/17/israeli-dog-sentenced-to-death-by-stoning/
  17. Agent76 says:

    Murray Rothbard – The Government Is Not Us

    Professor Rothard examines the irrational implications of the premise “we are the government.”

    Read More
  18. Biff says:

    Vietnam fought for its independence and won. It took hundreds of years.
    A few months back I toured the Hoa Lo(Hanoi Hilton) prison museum, and found that the Americans had it easy there compared to the Vietnamese under French colonial rule – back when Western governments experimented with torture, and other medical procedures.
    Josef Mengele was not an aberration of his time, but actually the norm.

    Read More
  19. @Priss Factor
    US fought a bloody civil war to preserve the Union.

    A nation divided in tragic indeed.

    So, it was very wrong for US to have divided Korea and Vietnam. Tragic decisions.

    US also divided Palestine and then helped Jews carry out massive ethnic expulsion of the native population to create a Jewish state.

    you forgot the most important one of all. usa keeping taiwan separate from china. this alone ensures hate from china forever.

    china is smart enough to not show any displeasure openly. at least till they fully start to flex their own military muscles in the near future.

    Read More
  20. Michelle says:

    My dear departed Grandma, who was pretty damn smart, always said, “You can do a lot worse than lose a war with the United States”. Vietnam would be in great shape right now had it just given up and lost the war with the US. Vietnam would be in the same shape as Germany and Japan. The US would have given billions to restart the Vietnamese economy. What did siding with Communist China gain it? What about Cambodia? Hmm..??? Cambodians chose the wrong ideology and the wrong side. How many Cambodian children have been sold into sexual slavery?

    Fred, you are a demented old fool and there is no fool like an old fool. You live in Mexico, a country that Mexicans are desperate to get out of. What the hell do you know? Your columns are becoming ridiculous.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Immigrant from former USSR
    Dear Michele:
    You made a statement

    Vietnam would be in great shape right now had it just given up and lost the war with the US. Vietnam would be in the same shape as Germany and Japan.
     
    How do you know ?
    Afghanistan lost war with US.
    Iraq lost war with US.
    Philippines lost the war with US:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine%E2%80%93American_War
    Are those 3 countries "in the same shape as Germany and Japan" ?
    God bless your esteemed late grandmother.
    But possibly she did not mean what you claim about Vietnam.
    , @Astuteobservor II
    after reading your comment I can't help but think what your grandma meant is that, being a house slave is better than a field slave :) I have no idea if that is right or wrong or even a tiny bit of what your grandma meant, that comparison just popped into my head after i read your comment :)

    in a way, if you have no choice, it is better. if you have no other choice.

    , @Intelligent Dasein

    Vietnam would be in great shape right now had it just given up and lost the war with the US. Vietnam would be in the same shape as Germany and Japan. The US would have given billions to restart the Vietnamese economy. What did siding with Communist China gain it?
     
    The answer to this conundrum is nationalism.

    China's embrace of Chairman Mao might seem hard to fathom until you realize that Mao's communism was represented as a "China First!" policy, while Chiang Kai-shek was seen as a Western puppet. Similarly in Indochina, Vietnam and Cambodia did not want to be ruled by the French, the Americans, or any other Western power. "Ho Chi Min is a son of a bitch," sang F. Lee Ermey in Full Metal Jacket, to which the Vietnamese might have replied, "Yeah, but damn it, he's our son of a bitch!"

    I have stated repeatedly before that even tiny North Korea is a radically successful nation on the terms that they themselves view as important. No one has been more successful at resisting the encroachment of degenerate Anglo-Imperialist culture. The North Koreans do not hate their Kims for keeping Wal-Mart and Queer Eye for the Straight Guy out of the country. They're actually quite proud of that.

    You cannot overestimate the amount of pain Asians are willing to endure so as not to be ruled by Westerners.
  21. Immigrant from former USSR [AKA "Florida Resident"] says:
    @Michelle
    My dear departed Grandma, who was pretty damn smart, always said, "You can do a lot worse than lose a war with the United States". Vietnam would be in great shape right now had it just given up and lost the war with the US. Vietnam would be in the same shape as Germany and Japan. The US would have given billions to restart the Vietnamese economy. What did siding with Communist China gain it? What about Cambodia? Hmm..??? Cambodians chose the wrong ideology and the wrong side. How many Cambodian children have been sold into sexual slavery?

    Fred, you are a demented old fool and there is no fool like an old fool. You live in Mexico, a country that Mexicans are desperate to get out of. What the hell do you know? Your columns are becoming ridiculous.

    Dear Michele:
    You made a statement

    Vietnam would be in great shape right now had it just given up and lost the war with the US. Vietnam would be in the same shape as Germany and Japan.

    How do you know ?
    Afghanistan lost war with US.
    Iraq lost war with US.
    Philippines lost the war with US:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine%E2%80%93American_War

    Are those 3 countries “in the same shape as Germany and Japan” ?
    God bless your esteemed late grandmother.
    But possibly she did not mean what you claim about Vietnam.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Michelle
    No those countries did not lose wars with the US. Come on!
  22. @Michelle
    My dear departed Grandma, who was pretty damn smart, always said, "You can do a lot worse than lose a war with the United States". Vietnam would be in great shape right now had it just given up and lost the war with the US. Vietnam would be in the same shape as Germany and Japan. The US would have given billions to restart the Vietnamese economy. What did siding with Communist China gain it? What about Cambodia? Hmm..??? Cambodians chose the wrong ideology and the wrong side. How many Cambodian children have been sold into sexual slavery?

    Fred, you are a demented old fool and there is no fool like an old fool. You live in Mexico, a country that Mexicans are desperate to get out of. What the hell do you know? Your columns are becoming ridiculous.

    after reading your comment I can’t help but think what your grandma meant is that, being a house slave is better than a field slave :) I have no idea if that is right or wrong or even a tiny bit of what your grandma meant, that comparison just popped into my head after i read your comment :)

    in a way, if you have no choice, it is better. if you have no other choice.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Michelle
    Japan and Germany are not "house slaves". They run their countries as they see fit. We do not "Occupy" them and run them through puppet governments. Though, should we have chosen to do so, who could have blamed us? A few military bases and very little money spent on their own defense is a tiny price to pay for the horrific crimes they committed.
  23. @Michelle
    My dear departed Grandma, who was pretty damn smart, always said, "You can do a lot worse than lose a war with the United States". Vietnam would be in great shape right now had it just given up and lost the war with the US. Vietnam would be in the same shape as Germany and Japan. The US would have given billions to restart the Vietnamese economy. What did siding with Communist China gain it? What about Cambodia? Hmm..??? Cambodians chose the wrong ideology and the wrong side. How many Cambodian children have been sold into sexual slavery?

    Fred, you are a demented old fool and there is no fool like an old fool. You live in Mexico, a country that Mexicans are desperate to get out of. What the hell do you know? Your columns are becoming ridiculous.

    Vietnam would be in great shape right now had it just given up and lost the war with the US. Vietnam would be in the same shape as Germany and Japan. The US would have given billions to restart the Vietnamese economy. What did siding with Communist China gain it?

    The answer to this conundrum is nationalism.

    China’s embrace of Chairman Mao might seem hard to fathom until you realize that Mao’s communism was represented as a “China First!” policy, while Chiang Kai-shek was seen as a Western puppet. Similarly in Indochina, Vietnam and Cambodia did not want to be ruled by the French, the Americans, or any other Western power. “Ho Chi Min is a son of a bitch,” sang F. Lee Ermey in Full Metal Jacket, to which the Vietnamese might have replied, “Yeah, but damn it, he’s our son of a bitch!”

    I have stated repeatedly before that even tiny North Korea is a radically successful nation on the terms that they themselves view as important. No one has been more successful at resisting the encroachment of degenerate Anglo-Imperialist culture. The North Koreans do not hate their Kims for keeping Wal-Mart and Queer Eye for the Straight Guy out of the country. They’re actually quite proud of that.

    You cannot overestimate the amount of pain Asians are willing to endure so as not to be ruled by Westerners.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    haha, who in their right mind wants to be ruled by another country :) you are funny.
    , @Michelle
    Deep, deep inferiority complex!
  24. lavoisier says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Yet despite sharply dropping casualties, the USA has been on a decades long losing streak, irrespective of the merits or absence thereof of these wars.
     
    Sorry Tark, I won't read your analysis because your initial assessment is incorrect. American wars are not fought for ideology, nor territory. American wars, and the funding of the American military, is carried out exclusively to funnel money to the rich. There is no other purpose or design.

    Now that is a statement.

    Read More
  25. @Intelligent Dasein

    Vietnam would be in great shape right now had it just given up and lost the war with the US. Vietnam would be in the same shape as Germany and Japan. The US would have given billions to restart the Vietnamese economy. What did siding with Communist China gain it?
     
    The answer to this conundrum is nationalism.

    China's embrace of Chairman Mao might seem hard to fathom until you realize that Mao's communism was represented as a "China First!" policy, while Chiang Kai-shek was seen as a Western puppet. Similarly in Indochina, Vietnam and Cambodia did not want to be ruled by the French, the Americans, or any other Western power. "Ho Chi Min is a son of a bitch," sang F. Lee Ermey in Full Metal Jacket, to which the Vietnamese might have replied, "Yeah, but damn it, he's our son of a bitch!"

    I have stated repeatedly before that even tiny North Korea is a radically successful nation on the terms that they themselves view as important. No one has been more successful at resisting the encroachment of degenerate Anglo-Imperialist culture. The North Koreans do not hate their Kims for keeping Wal-Mart and Queer Eye for the Straight Guy out of the country. They're actually quite proud of that.

    You cannot overestimate the amount of pain Asians are willing to endure so as not to be ruled by Westerners.

    haha, who in their right mind wants to be ruled by another country :) you are funny.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Michelle
    The CIA and the US military never invades or intervenes in any country wherein a goodly proportion of the populace is not begging us to do so. Just like the US, most countries are split between lefties and righties. Hence, the boat lifts and such as the refugees from one side or the other are desperate to flee the new leaders. Jesus, everybody forgets about all the Lefty intellectuals who ran to Spain to fight in the Spanish Civil War.

    I am sure that if Donald Trump is ever elected President, and a couple of European countries found that intolerable and decided to invade the US, the lefties in the US would quickly side with Swedish or French occupiers and recognize them as liberators.
  26. Dave37 says:

    We didn’t divide VN it was that way when we got there. I guess in a way we got our “goal” of preventing the threat of the domino theory as VN communists are militarily opposed to Chinese involvement in their country. They even “encouraged” Chinese-Viets to leave the country that had been there for generations. The visiting Russians were uninvited too and now Intel is making chips there, and VN is asking us for our military support against the Chinese. If we give up on Afghanistan we probably won’t get as good a support for Chinese expansion opposition but then the Russians didn’t get anything at all when they left ‘stan.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Historian

    We didn’t divide VN it was that way when we got there. I guess in a way we got our “goal” of preventing the threat of the domino theory as VN communists are militarily opposed to Chinese involvement in their country.
     
    We divided up Vietnam in 1956 before we got there. There was supposed to be an election to unify Vietnam, but we told our South Vietnamese puppets cancel the election when it looked like Ho Chi Minh was going to win.

    If the Vietnamese hate China so much,, then what was the point of our intervention? Wouldn't Vietnam be an even more effective counterweight to China if they didn't have 20 years of war to recover from?


    If we give up on Afghanistan we probably won’t get as good a support for Chinese expansion opposition but then the Russians didn’t get anything at all when they left ‘stan.
     
    What opposition to Chinese expansion? The Afghans awarded most of their mining contracts to the Chinese, just like the Iraqis did with their oil contracts.

    If the Afghans are going to give their resources to the Chinese, then the Chinese can have Afghanistan if they want it. Why should Americans boys be sent to die for Chinese business interests? Besides, the Chinese let us have Cuba, so it's a fair trade.
  27. Thanks Fred for finally speaking up again about the real Vietnam deal. I figured over the years that you had easily just forgotten or dropped Vietnam. I said to myself “just forgetting , making a war a nonissue can be done…Fred Reed was a Marine grunt (expendable, nameless, faceless nobody Marine) and I felt he gave it up…so the rest of us should just do that too…our anger … and clearly Fred is not an attention seeker” but I am grateful to see this column. It shows that you are human.
    I served in the Marines in late 60s.
    I too could name seven men from my little neighborhood and those are the guys that I played with or they went to my Catholic grammar school. They range from Billy Schramm around April 68 16th Inf., !st Div -big red one to Richie Rossano April 1971, Americal Div up by Z where Marines used to patrol. There are others from my cannon fodder neighborhood but I did not know them. I played ball with Billy- when he died his mother literally started talking to herself all day, and Richie’s dad did the same. But they didn’t matter to the careerists in the military and other places, just as 4500 dead service members in Iraq means nothing to the Zionists and PNAC gang.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave37
    The Americal wasn't on the Z but it was in a nest of vipers.
  28. unit472 says:

    How a rather small nation like Germany was able to overrun most of Europe and hold it without much difficulty from 1939 until 1944 shows the flaw in US military operations abroad. The US ‘hearts and minds’ policy was just not as effective as the German policy of massive retribution against the civilian population for any resistance. War is barbaric and if your goal is to impose your will on the enemy you have to be barbaric too.

    We were able to occupy Japan and Germany without facing guerilla forces because our aerial bombardments had broken the enemy populations will to resist. Some have suggested that is was only the Japanese Emperor’s admission of defeat that spared the Allies from having to launch operation Olympic in the fall of 1945 against fanatical Japanese opposition. That we will never be able to determine but after the two atomic bombings and the reality that the US had 7 more A-bombs ready to go by the time Olympic was scheduled to commence the Japanese Emperor was reasonably convinced that if he didn’t surrender the Imperial Palace would be ground zero for another atomic bombing before the Allied force made their landings in Kyushu.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    we can never do that because of our self pro claimed titles and moral high grounds. the moment we do, the entire worlds turns against us.

    the current game is almost perfect already.

    we put up a facade :) and still do almost all the unspeakable things under the table. only reason the cracks are appearing recently is because of internet and the information flow. but we are also the masters of spin. even edward snowden is old news now.

    as of right now, everyone knows we are hypocrites, but they can never openly state it :) good enough. besides, there are no good or evil, just nations using each other.
  29. @unit472
    How a rather small nation like Germany was able to overrun most of Europe and hold it without much difficulty from 1939 until 1944 shows the flaw in US military operations abroad. The US 'hearts and minds' policy was just not as effective as the German policy of massive retribution against the civilian population for any resistance. War is barbaric and if your goal is to impose your will on the enemy you have to be barbaric too.

    We were able to occupy Japan and Germany without facing guerilla forces because our aerial bombardments had broken the enemy populations will to resist. Some have suggested that is was only the Japanese Emperor's admission of defeat that spared the Allies from having to launch operation Olympic in the fall of 1945 against fanatical Japanese opposition. That we will never be able to determine but after the two atomic bombings and the reality that the US had 7 more A-bombs ready to go by the time Olympic was scheduled to commence the Japanese Emperor was reasonably convinced that if he didn't surrender the Imperial Palace would be ground zero for another atomic bombing before the Allied force made their landings in Kyushu.

    we can never do that because of our self pro claimed titles and moral high grounds. the moment we do, the entire worlds turns against us.

    the current game is almost perfect already.

    we put up a facade :) and still do almost all the unspeakable things under the table. only reason the cracks are appearing recently is because of internet and the information flow. but we are also the masters of spin. even edward snowden is old news now.

    as of right now, everyone knows we are hypocrites, but they can never openly state it :) good enough. besides, there are no good or evil, just nations using each other.

    Read More
    • Replies: @prusmc
    Astuteobserver:
    First the Ministry of Truth begins by spinnig the net. The already have the " hearts and minds " of the traditional news media and the entertainment complex in pocket. After the election farce, HRC unleases the FCC on the web with the supine approval of the newly selected left_wing majorities in both houses of Congress ( the present day GOP would not have provided much resistence). As a commentator statee above sites like this will be purged very soon.
  30. Dave37 says:
    @Lost american
    Thanks Fred for finally speaking up again about the real Vietnam deal. I figured over the years that you had easily just forgotten or dropped Vietnam. I said to myself "just forgetting , making a war a nonissue can be done...Fred Reed was a Marine grunt (expendable, nameless, faceless nobody Marine) and I felt he gave it up...so the rest of us should just do that too...our anger ... and clearly Fred is not an attention seeker" but I am grateful to see this column. It shows that you are human.
    I served in the Marines in late 60s.
    I too could name seven men from my little neighborhood and those are the guys that I played with or they went to my Catholic grammar school. They range from Billy Schramm around April 68 16th Inf., !st Div -big red one to Richie Rossano April 1971, Americal Div up by Z where Marines used to patrol. There are others from my cannon fodder neighborhood but I did not know them. I played ball with Billy- when he died his mother literally started talking to herself all day, and Richie's dad did the same. But they didn't matter to the careerists in the military and other places, just as 4500 dead service members in Iraq means nothing to the Zionists and PNAC gang.

    The Americal wasn’t on the Z but it was in a nest of vipers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @unit472
    If we are hypocrites then let us get rid of the hypocrisy! Do it the way the Romans, Germany, Japan, and the Communist powers did. No quarter to those who resist. Drop the pretense and lay it out in full view. Submit or Perish. Its the historically correct approach to war and conquest.

    Once you have ceased resistance discussions can begin on just what will be allowed but not before.
    , @Lost american
    The Americal as you know was composed of many units. When the 3rd MARDIV pulled out by late 69, the US Army Americal units as did the 5th MEC patrolled most of the areas. Yes, I agree, the Americal was put in a very bad spot- it was truly a nest of vipers. There were brigades like 196, 199, other. On the day Jimi Hendrix played Woodstock in 69, 34 Americans died- many up in I Corps.
    My grammar school classmate was killed on a patrol far west on Route 9 and some 10-20 miles south of the DMZ. I cannot remember anything anymore so the names of the places I knew just months ago escape me now.
  31. Historian says:
    @Dave37
    We didn't divide VN it was that way when we got there. I guess in a way we got our "goal" of preventing the threat of the domino theory as VN communists are militarily opposed to Chinese involvement in their country. They even "encouraged" Chinese-Viets to leave the country that had been there for generations. The visiting Russians were uninvited too and now Intel is making chips there, and VN is asking us for our military support against the Chinese. If we give up on Afghanistan we probably won't get as good a support for Chinese expansion opposition but then the Russians didn't get anything at all when they left 'stan.

    We didn’t divide VN it was that way when we got there. I guess in a way we got our “goal” of preventing the threat of the domino theory as VN communists are militarily opposed to Chinese involvement in their country.

    We divided up Vietnam in 1956 before we got there. There was supposed to be an election to unify Vietnam, but we told our South Vietnamese puppets cancel the election when it looked like Ho Chi Minh was going to win.

    If the Vietnamese hate China so much,, then what was the point of our intervention? Wouldn’t Vietnam be an even more effective counterweight to China if they didn’t have 20 years of war to recover from?

    If we give up on Afghanistan we probably won’t get as good a support for Chinese expansion opposition but then the Russians didn’t get anything at all when they left ‘stan.

    What opposition to Chinese expansion? The Afghans awarded most of their mining contracts to the Chinese, just like the Iraqis did with their oil contracts.

    If the Afghans are going to give their resources to the Chinese, then the Chinese can have Afghanistan if they want it. Why should Americans boys be sent to die for Chinese business interests? Besides, the Chinese let us have Cuba, so it’s a fair trade.

    Read More
    • Replies: @KA
    Thank you I have read these precursor s to Vietnam wars . Ho Chi minh was in Paris 1919 conference America delayed the independence Later America supported French procrastination in giving independence back to Vietnamese in 1947-48. Ho Chi Minh was not a card carrying communist member until late in the game but that was only to get America off the back . In addition to these facts, America encouraged S Vietnam to ignore the election result .


    But your observation is important for a different reason . The apologist for American intervention sees the aftermath or the results or the effects created by the intervention as the reasons for the intervention.
    We are seeing this today in Iraq ,Syria,and Libya.
    , @Dave37
    Well when "we" got there it was already divided up, go make a touchdown guys, that "we" was me and my buddies, I didn't care what Washington, Hanoi, Peking or anybody else did to open that door for us.

    I think it's pretty common knowledge that those countries around China have always been afraid of Chinese colonizing, even swamping the surrounding the countries with Chinese and their culture to the detriment of the locals. The worry of course was that communists act together, hence the war to prevent Chinese Communists expansion, you know they all stick together to come after everybody else, sort of like ants theory.

    And it's probably a safe bet China will need some escalation of force in 'stan or some other place, they're too heavily invested in military hardware not to use it eventually just like the British, Russians and Americans, so Chinese boys can die for economic interests too. And though China is not quite as full of dissatisfaction as Russia was when it pulled out it should be interesting to see what effects that has on a nation that seems have some large chunks swaying in the political winds of social/economic instability.
  32. conatus says:

    In a lot of ways War is like golf, low score wins. Particularly in Fred Reed’s war where body count was paramount. So on the scorecard the US won that golf match, 1.4 to .3.
    Roughly a million and a half North Vietnamese died vs 250K+60kAmericans died from the South. Low score wins.

    However Robert McNamara badly managed the golf game for the US with his bloodless? emphasis on body count as a way to keep score. Guys cycled in and out, all alone, no unit cohesion, no football spirit. RahaRah? Gimmee a break.
    No way!!!!! “It don’t matter” was the Vietnam War phrase.

    The Big Picture of Vietnam was the Pig in the Python(baby boomers…..56 million of them) got nasty and gored the python to death from inside. The Vietnam demographics erased any allegiance to an orderly established society. Here unlike golf, low score loses. Simple demographics of the baby boomers tell the tale: 26 million draft age men, 26 million women, 9 million men total in the military for that generation,( 3 million in Vietnam,) leaving 17 million men and all the 26 million women to rationalize their non military, non martial behavior as a heroic life tale. You know, `the brave heroes who went to Canada.’

    Anyway Majority wins. So 45 million anti authority peaceniks? to 9 million vets and no one wants to hear about lonely Vietnam. The 45 million rationalized their football game all their lives….”brave Canada heroes”,”courageous anti-war marches”, and so their ideology was liberal anti establishment all their lives…all because Robert McNamara badly managed the golf game war of Vietnam.
    And the results? Since the baby boomer generation have been in charge they have gored the python of the US to death from the inside out and we have gone from John Wayne as our hero to Caitlyn Jenner.

    Good luck kids.

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  33. KA says:
    @Tark Marg
    As I see it, the USA has not won a large scale land war since Korea in 1953 (which was actually a stalemate), with the possible exception of the first Iraq war, which was short and sharp.

    After Korea, Vietnam, Iraq 2003-11, and Afghanistan 2001-present have all been defeats or getting there.

    Paradoxically, casualties/population have been dropping by an order of magnitude at every war. Thus the civil war saw 600000 casualties out of a population of 30 million, while WWII saw 300000 out of 140 million, Korea 35000 out of 150 million, Vietnam 58000 out of 200 million, Afghanistan 2000 and Iraq 2003-11 4500 out of 300 million.

    Yet despite sharply dropping casualties, the USA has been on a decades long losing streak, irrespective of the merits or absence thereof of these wars.

    Why is this?

    I believe there are many factors involved, such as the ubiquity of television images and the length of some of these wars, but a major component is the growing empathobesity of the USA and the West in general since the 60s. Not coincidentally it is after the 60s that the USA begins its losing streak.

    I have analyzed this phenomenon in detail here:

    http://tarkmarg.blogspot.sg/2015/12/the-rise-and-decline-of-west-why-and.html?m=1

    ” To win in the sense of making the US do what it wanted, it didn’t have to win militarily. It just had to keep from losing–and inflict casualties, and casualties, and casualties. It suffered many more dead than it inflicted, but it had the will to keep fighting. And inflict casualties. And casualties.”

    I think my 2 cents on this and your observation is complementary . It ties two things together .

    Citizen of mature prosperous country will not fight a war unless forced by economy or draft . Citizen will not take the treacherous uncertainty involved for a pittance . Pittance involves salary and some VA treatment for PTSD unless choices are bleak destitution .

    This is another reason that a mature prosperous civilization will not win wars . Life was cheap to Vietnamese but not the land,peace,and prospect for future . Life was cheap to confederates and those opposing the Confederate in 1860s but not the land,peace and the prospect of maintaining their own world views . Same can be of the Chinese and Indian or Ottoman empires . Britain ,France and Span in the early days of the empire can rally people to join army for booty ,girls,and god .After a while they could not while the emerging foes could .( People may call it the loss of the will power to fight )

    America with the mindset of Pilgrim or even of Confederate 2 centuries later could easily have occupied and pacified Iraq and Afghanistan .

    Read More
    • Replies: @Tark Marg
    "America with the mindset of Pilgrim or even of Confederate 2 centuries later could easily have occupied and pacified Iraq and Afghanistan ."

    That's a pithy way to put it. I hadn't thought about it from this perspective.

    Indeed, although I haven't read about this in detail, the USA occupied and pacified the Philipines, including Islamic Moro rebels in the late 19th-early 20th centuries.
  34. KA says:
    @Historian

    We didn’t divide VN it was that way when we got there. I guess in a way we got our “goal” of preventing the threat of the domino theory as VN communists are militarily opposed to Chinese involvement in their country.
     
    We divided up Vietnam in 1956 before we got there. There was supposed to be an election to unify Vietnam, but we told our South Vietnamese puppets cancel the election when it looked like Ho Chi Minh was going to win.

    If the Vietnamese hate China so much,, then what was the point of our intervention? Wouldn't Vietnam be an even more effective counterweight to China if they didn't have 20 years of war to recover from?


    If we give up on Afghanistan we probably won’t get as good a support for Chinese expansion opposition but then the Russians didn’t get anything at all when they left ‘stan.
     
    What opposition to Chinese expansion? The Afghans awarded most of their mining contracts to the Chinese, just like the Iraqis did with their oil contracts.

    If the Afghans are going to give their resources to the Chinese, then the Chinese can have Afghanistan if they want it. Why should Americans boys be sent to die for Chinese business interests? Besides, the Chinese let us have Cuba, so it's a fair trade.

    Thank you I have read these precursor s to Vietnam wars . Ho Chi minh was in Paris 1919 conference America delayed the independence Later America supported French procrastination in giving independence back to Vietnamese in 1947-48. Ho Chi Minh was not a card carrying communist member until late in the game but that was only to get America off the back . In addition to these facts, America encouraged S Vietnam to ignore the election result .

    But your observation is important for a different reason . The apologist for American intervention sees the aftermath or the results or the effects created by the intervention as the reasons for the intervention.
    We are seeing this today in Iraq ,Syria,and Libya.

    Read More
  35. unit472 says:
    @Dave37
    The Americal wasn't on the Z but it was in a nest of vipers.

    If we are hypocrites then let us get rid of the hypocrisy! Do it the way the Romans, Germany, Japan, and the Communist powers did. No quarter to those who resist. Drop the pretense and lay it out in full view. Submit or Perish. Its the historically correct approach to war and conquest.

    Once you have ceased resistance discussions can begin on just what will be allowed but not before.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    a question, do you think usa is strong enough to take on the entire world? because that is what we have to do the moment we drop the facade.
  36. Tark Marg says: • Website
    @KA
    " To win in the sense of making the US do what it wanted, it didn’t have to win militarily. It just had to keep from losing–and inflict casualties, and casualties, and casualties. It suffered many more dead than it inflicted, but it had the will to keep fighting. And inflict casualties. And casualties."

    I think my 2 cents on this and your observation is complementary . It ties two things together .

    Citizen of mature prosperous country will not fight a war unless forced by economy or draft . Citizen will not take the treacherous uncertainty involved for a pittance . Pittance involves salary and some VA treatment for PTSD unless choices are bleak destitution .

    This is another reason that a mature prosperous civilization will not win wars . Life was cheap to Vietnamese but not the land,peace,and prospect for future . Life was cheap to confederates and those opposing the Confederate in 1860s but not the land,peace and the prospect of maintaining their own world views . Same can be of the Chinese and Indian or Ottoman empires . Britain ,France and Span in the early days of the empire can rally people to join army for booty ,girls,and god .After a while they could not while the emerging foes could .( People may call it the loss of the will power to fight )


    America with the mindset of Pilgrim or even of Confederate 2 centuries later could easily have occupied and pacified Iraq and Afghanistan .

    “America with the mindset of Pilgrim or even of Confederate 2 centuries later could easily have occupied and pacified Iraq and Afghanistan .”

    That’s a pithy way to put it. I hadn’t thought about it from this perspective.

    Indeed, although I haven’t read about this in detail, the USA occupied and pacified the Philipines, including Islamic Moro rebels in the late 19th-early 20th centuries.

    Read More
  37. Dave37 says:
    @Historian

    We didn’t divide VN it was that way when we got there. I guess in a way we got our “goal” of preventing the threat of the domino theory as VN communists are militarily opposed to Chinese involvement in their country.
     
    We divided up Vietnam in 1956 before we got there. There was supposed to be an election to unify Vietnam, but we told our South Vietnamese puppets cancel the election when it looked like Ho Chi Minh was going to win.

    If the Vietnamese hate China so much,, then what was the point of our intervention? Wouldn't Vietnam be an even more effective counterweight to China if they didn't have 20 years of war to recover from?


    If we give up on Afghanistan we probably won’t get as good a support for Chinese expansion opposition but then the Russians didn’t get anything at all when they left ‘stan.
     
    What opposition to Chinese expansion? The Afghans awarded most of their mining contracts to the Chinese, just like the Iraqis did with their oil contracts.

    If the Afghans are going to give their resources to the Chinese, then the Chinese can have Afghanistan if they want it. Why should Americans boys be sent to die for Chinese business interests? Besides, the Chinese let us have Cuba, so it's a fair trade.

    Well when “we” got there it was already divided up, go make a touchdown guys, that “we” was me and my buddies, I didn’t care what Washington, Hanoi, Peking or anybody else did to open that door for us.

    I think it’s pretty common knowledge that those countries around China have always been afraid of Chinese colonizing, even swamping the surrounding the countries with Chinese and their culture to the detriment of the locals. The worry of course was that communists act together, hence the war to prevent Chinese Communists expansion, you know they all stick together to come after everybody else, sort of like ants theory.

    And it’s probably a safe bet China will need some escalation of force in ‘stan or some other place, they’re too heavily invested in military hardware not to use it eventually just like the British, Russians and Americans, so Chinese boys can die for economic interests too. And though China is not quite as full of dissatisfaction as Russia was when it pulled out it should be interesting to see what effects that has on a nation that seems have some large chunks swaying in the political winds of social/economic instability.

    Read More
  38. @Dave37
    The Americal wasn't on the Z but it was in a nest of vipers.

    The Americal as you know was composed of many units. When the 3rd MARDIV pulled out by late 69, the US Army Americal units as did the 5th MEC patrolled most of the areas. Yes, I agree, the Americal was put in a very bad spot- it was truly a nest of vipers. There were brigades like 196, 199, other. On the day Jimi Hendrix played Woodstock in 69, 34 Americans died- many up in I Corps.
    My grammar school classmate was killed on a patrol far west on Route 9 and some 10-20 miles south of the DMZ. I cannot remember anything anymore so the names of the places I knew just months ago escape me now.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave37
    OK, I recall the Marines leaving. And replaced by the 5th Mech along with the 101st bases and of course the 1st AirCav flying everywhere and even some 1st inf mechanics at some place near the D so I suppose some Americal could have been around that I didn't know about. Sorry about your friends (and my friends too) I'm not trying to be an apologist about US led wars but just looking for some balance such as I've lost some family and friends in other places too, like stateside helicopter crashes, car accidents (60k car/year was the equivalent of ten years of casualties in VN), drug war, incompetent medical establishments, etc. Conspiracy and pessimism are not the way I want this country to be but if we don't pull ourselves out it seems the powers of Wash DC will just continue making the same mistakes.
  39. War is still like a football game-seems Americans like scores. Terrible-just a football game to the neocon PNAC gang members. War is hideous-you would think Americans would be shouting it out, but no, they sit and watch their TV shows.
    The comments here are truly interesting.

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  40. Michelle says:
    @Immigrant from former USSR
    Dear Michele:
    You made a statement

    Vietnam would be in great shape right now had it just given up and lost the war with the US. Vietnam would be in the same shape as Germany and Japan.
     
    How do you know ?
    Afghanistan lost war with US.
    Iraq lost war with US.
    Philippines lost the war with US:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine%E2%80%93American_War
    Are those 3 countries "in the same shape as Germany and Japan" ?
    God bless your esteemed late grandmother.
    But possibly she did not mean what you claim about Vietnam.

    No those countries did not lose wars with the US. Come on!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Immigrant from former USSR
    Ms. Michelle:
    If you claim that

    dear departed Grandma, who was pretty damn smart
     
    in comparison with yourself, are you sure that it is such a flattering characteristic ?
    I am trying to make a judgement from your response(s).
  41. Michelle says:
    @Intelligent Dasein

    Vietnam would be in great shape right now had it just given up and lost the war with the US. Vietnam would be in the same shape as Germany and Japan. The US would have given billions to restart the Vietnamese economy. What did siding with Communist China gain it?
     
    The answer to this conundrum is nationalism.

    China's embrace of Chairman Mao might seem hard to fathom until you realize that Mao's communism was represented as a "China First!" policy, while Chiang Kai-shek was seen as a Western puppet. Similarly in Indochina, Vietnam and Cambodia did not want to be ruled by the French, the Americans, or any other Western power. "Ho Chi Min is a son of a bitch," sang F. Lee Ermey in Full Metal Jacket, to which the Vietnamese might have replied, "Yeah, but damn it, he's our son of a bitch!"

    I have stated repeatedly before that even tiny North Korea is a radically successful nation on the terms that they themselves view as important. No one has been more successful at resisting the encroachment of degenerate Anglo-Imperialist culture. The North Koreans do not hate their Kims for keeping Wal-Mart and Queer Eye for the Straight Guy out of the country. They're actually quite proud of that.

    You cannot overestimate the amount of pain Asians are willing to endure so as not to be ruled by Westerners.

    Deep, deep inferiority complex!

    Read More
  42. Michelle says:
    @Astuteobservor II
    haha, who in their right mind wants to be ruled by another country :) you are funny.

    The CIA and the US military never invades or intervenes in any country wherein a goodly proportion of the populace is not begging us to do so. Just like the US, most countries are split between lefties and righties. Hence, the boat lifts and such as the refugees from one side or the other are desperate to flee the new leaders. Jesus, everybody forgets about all the Lefty intellectuals who ran to Spain to fight in the Spanish Civil War.

    I am sure that if Donald Trump is ever elected President, and a couple of European countries found that intolerable and decided to invade the US, the lefties in the US would quickly side with Swedish or French occupiers and recognize them as liberators.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II

    The CIA and the US military never invades or intervenes in any country wherein a goodly proportion of the populace is not begging us to do so.
     
    holy shit. were you serious when you wrote this?

    europeans invading usa :) hahahahahaahah
  43. Michelle says:
    @Astuteobservor II
    after reading your comment I can't help but think what your grandma meant is that, being a house slave is better than a field slave :) I have no idea if that is right or wrong or even a tiny bit of what your grandma meant, that comparison just popped into my head after i read your comment :)

    in a way, if you have no choice, it is better. if you have no other choice.

    Japan and Germany are not “house slaves”. They run their countries as they see fit. We do not “Occupy” them and run them through puppet governments. Though, should we have chosen to do so, who could have blamed us? A few military bases and very little money spent on their own defense is a tiny price to pay for the horrific crimes they committed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Astuteobservor II
    oh come on, they gave up their sovereignty. no need to sugar coat it.

    crimes? what crimes? it was just war. they are only crimes because we proclaimed their actions to be crimes. we firebombed their cities, zero fucking difference.
  44. Dave37 says:
    @Lost american
    The Americal as you know was composed of many units. When the 3rd MARDIV pulled out by late 69, the US Army Americal units as did the 5th MEC patrolled most of the areas. Yes, I agree, the Americal was put in a very bad spot- it was truly a nest of vipers. There were brigades like 196, 199, other. On the day Jimi Hendrix played Woodstock in 69, 34 Americans died- many up in I Corps.
    My grammar school classmate was killed on a patrol far west on Route 9 and some 10-20 miles south of the DMZ. I cannot remember anything anymore so the names of the places I knew just months ago escape me now.

    OK, I recall the Marines leaving. And replaced by the 5th Mech along with the 101st bases and of course the 1st AirCav flying everywhere and even some 1st inf mechanics at some place near the D so I suppose some Americal could have been around that I didn’t know about. Sorry about your friends (and my friends too) I’m not trying to be an apologist about US led wars but just looking for some balance such as I’ve lost some family and friends in other places too, like stateside helicopter crashes, car accidents (60k car/year was the equivalent of ten years of casualties in VN), drug war, incompetent medical establishments, etc. Conspiracy and pessimism are not the way I want this country to be but if we don’t pull ourselves out it seems the powers of Wash DC will just continue making the same mistakes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lost american
    I agree and always have told others that the deaths of young men in training accidents, vehicle accidents were just as hard to deal with as those killed in warzones except that those in warzones are often killed in the execution of very poor op orders-yes, soldiers are usually just pawns in some very unnecessary and poorly planned mission. I have seen the results of helicopter crashes in the states and misplaced artillery rounds as well as drownings and heat stroke.
    When I visit my old friends (none were in military) their children have told me about the deaths related to drug overdoses. It is widespread. These young people who died came from very responsible families.
    I had a friendly argument with a big wig in the American Legion when I said to open the Legion to all veterans not just to those who happened to have been in the military when some conflict was going on. He didn't listen to what I was saying so I said "OK, you run a club and you go by the rules of the club". It seems that service in maintaining the peace is not as dramatic and is undervalued by the Legion - seems they get off by wanting wartime qualifications. I figured hard dedicated work in keeping the peace and making the country strong was better than getting into a war.
    The 101 and 1 CAV were all over and I take it for granted. The marvins had also moved in I Corps in big numbers.
  45. @Michelle
    The CIA and the US military never invades or intervenes in any country wherein a goodly proportion of the populace is not begging us to do so. Just like the US, most countries are split between lefties and righties. Hence, the boat lifts and such as the refugees from one side or the other are desperate to flee the new leaders. Jesus, everybody forgets about all the Lefty intellectuals who ran to Spain to fight in the Spanish Civil War.

    I am sure that if Donald Trump is ever elected President, and a couple of European countries found that intolerable and decided to invade the US, the lefties in the US would quickly side with Swedish or French occupiers and recognize them as liberators.

    The CIA and the US military never invades or intervenes in any country wherein a goodly proportion of the populace is not begging us to do so.

    holy shit. were you serious when you wrote this?

    europeans invading usa :) hahahahahaahah

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  46. @Michelle
    Japan and Germany are not "house slaves". They run their countries as they see fit. We do not "Occupy" them and run them through puppet governments. Though, should we have chosen to do so, who could have blamed us? A few military bases and very little money spent on their own defense is a tiny price to pay for the horrific crimes they committed.

    oh come on, they gave up their sovereignty. no need to sugar coat it.

    crimes? what crimes? it was just war. they are only crimes because we proclaimed their actions to be crimes. we firebombed their cities, zero fucking difference.

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  47. @unit472
    If we are hypocrites then let us get rid of the hypocrisy! Do it the way the Romans, Germany, Japan, and the Communist powers did. No quarter to those who resist. Drop the pretense and lay it out in full view. Submit or Perish. Its the historically correct approach to war and conquest.

    Once you have ceased resistance discussions can begin on just what will be allowed but not before.

    a question, do you think usa is strong enough to take on the entire world? because that is what we have to do the moment we drop the facade.

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  48. KA says:
    @Tark Marg
    "America with the mindset of Pilgrim or even of Confederate 2 centuries later could easily have occupied and pacified Iraq and Afghanistan ."

    That's a pithy way to put it. I hadn't thought about it from this perspective.

    Indeed, although I haven't read about this in detail, the USA occupied and pacified the Philipines, including Islamic Moro rebels in the late 19th-early 20th centuries.

    Thank you
    It’s just a thought

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  49. Rehmat says:
    @Sherman
    Hey Homer

    I'm glad you're such a sports fan.

    I bet you and your goat will represent Pakistan in the Olympic goat racing tournament!

    Sherm

    Sorry Sharon, I rather take a dog to race at the next Olympics, but unfortunately the best dog was killed by Israeli Jewish brothers by stoning.

    Israel daily YNet reported on June 16, 2011 that a Jerusalem rabbinical court recently sentenced a wandering dog (considered an impure animal by Halacha) to death by stoning. The cruel sentence stemmed from the suspicion that the spirit of a famous secular lawyer, who insulted the court’s judges 20 years ago, had been transferred into the dog’s body.

    The judgement was probably based on Exodus 21:28: “If a bull gores a man or a woman to death, the bull must be stoned to death, and its meat must not be eaten. But the owner of the bull will not be held responsible”.

    “The dog entered the Monetary Affairs Court near the ultra-Orthodox neighborhood of Mea Shearim. The dog scared the court’s visitors and, to their surprise, refused to leave even after they attempted to drive him away. One of the judges suddenly recalled that about 20 years ago, a famous secular lawyer who insulted the court was cursed by the panel of judges, who wished that his spirit would move on to the body of a dog. The lawyer passed away several years ago. Still offended, one of the judges sentenced the poor animal to death by stoning, recruiting the neighborhood’s children to carry out the order. Luckily, the dog managed to escape,” reported YNet.

    https://rehmat1.com/2011/06/17/israeli-dog-sentenced-to-death-by-stoning/

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  50. @Dave37
    OK, I recall the Marines leaving. And replaced by the 5th Mech along with the 101st bases and of course the 1st AirCav flying everywhere and even some 1st inf mechanics at some place near the D so I suppose some Americal could have been around that I didn't know about. Sorry about your friends (and my friends too) I'm not trying to be an apologist about US led wars but just looking for some balance such as I've lost some family and friends in other places too, like stateside helicopter crashes, car accidents (60k car/year was the equivalent of ten years of casualties in VN), drug war, incompetent medical establishments, etc. Conspiracy and pessimism are not the way I want this country to be but if we don't pull ourselves out it seems the powers of Wash DC will just continue making the same mistakes.

    I agree and always have told others that the deaths of young men in training accidents, vehicle accidents were just as hard to deal with as those killed in warzones except that those in warzones are often killed in the execution of very poor op orders-yes, soldiers are usually just pawns in some very unnecessary and poorly planned mission. I have seen the results of helicopter crashes in the states and misplaced artillery rounds as well as drownings and heat stroke.
    When I visit my old friends (none were in military) their children have told me about the deaths related to drug overdoses. It is widespread. These young people who died came from very responsible families.
    I had a friendly argument with a big wig in the American Legion when I said to open the Legion to all veterans not just to those who happened to have been in the military when some conflict was going on. He didn’t listen to what I was saying so I said “OK, you run a club and you go by the rules of the club”. It seems that service in maintaining the peace is not as dramatic and is undervalued by the Legion – seems they get off by wanting wartime qualifications. I figured hard dedicated work in keeping the peace and making the country strong was better than getting into a war.
    The 101 and 1 CAV were all over and I take it for granted. The marvins had also moved in I Corps in big numbers.

    Read More
  51. Immigrant from former USSR [AKA "Florida Resident"] says:
    @Michelle
    No those countries did not lose wars with the US. Come on!

    Ms. Michelle:
    If you claim that

    dear departed Grandma, who was pretty damn smart

    in comparison with yourself, are you sure that it is such a flattering characteristic ?
    I am trying to make a judgement from your response(s).

    Read More
  52. prusmc says:
    @Astuteobservor II
    we can never do that because of our self pro claimed titles and moral high grounds. the moment we do, the entire worlds turns against us.

    the current game is almost perfect already.

    we put up a facade :) and still do almost all the unspeakable things under the table. only reason the cracks are appearing recently is because of internet and the information flow. but we are also the masters of spin. even edward snowden is old news now.

    as of right now, everyone knows we are hypocrites, but they can never openly state it :) good enough. besides, there are no good or evil, just nations using each other.

    Astuteobserver:
    First the Ministry of Truth begins by spinnig the net. The already have the ” hearts and minds ” of the traditional news media and the entertainment complex in pocket. After the election farce, HRC unleases the FCC on the web with the supine approval of the newly selected left_wing majorities in both houses of Congress ( the present day GOP would not have provided much resistence). As a commentator statee above sites like this will be purged very soon.

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  53. ” Wars now chiefly involve bombing enemies who have no way of fighting back.” Huh? If you think events like San Bernardino, CA (14 killed) Boston Marathon (4 killed and 16 amputees) Nidal Malik Hassan and the fort Hood shooting (another 13 killed) as well as Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez who killed five last summer at a recruiting center in Tenn. And let us not forget 9/11 where 2,973 Americans were slaughtered on a sunny Tuesday morning! As the attacks in Paris and Brussels suggest the enemy is indeed fighting back, contrary to Fred’s outlandish and ludicrous claims to the contrary! The evidence suggests that the enemy (Islamic militancy) will continue to fight back using what the Pentagon calls “asymmetric warfare” (terrorism, guerrilla warfare and insurgency) similar to what the Vietcong and NVA used during the wars in Indochina 1945-1975 against the French and then Americans (successfully I might add).

    Finally, let us not forget the financial burden, which is another reason America will end up losing (in the long run) which now totals over 3 trillion and counting!

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  54. @Priss Factor
    US fought a bloody civil war to preserve the Union.

    A nation divided in tragic indeed.

    So, it was very wrong for US to have divided Korea and Vietnam. Tragic decisions.

    US also divided Palestine and then helped Jews carry out massive ethnic expulsion of the native population to create a Jewish state.

    We didn’t divide Korea, Vietnam or China. The Reds did that on their own.

    The business on “Palestine” is the same. The UN created Israel and every Arab country around her immediately went to war to snuff the country in the cradle. Israel has defended herself and the Arabs have lost at every step of the way.

    You blame the US for things she never touched.

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  55. J. E. Pournelle:

    The lesson of Viet Nam is simpler: don’t entirely abandon your allies. In 1972 the North Vietnamese sent 150,000 troops south. Almost none returned alive. The US lost about 600 men in the entire year. ARVN with US materiel support and US air support devastated an army that came south with more armor than the Wehrmacht ever had during WW II. I would say that lesson was that the US with allies can defeat damn near anything. True, in 1975 the Democrats in Congress voted to abandon South Viet Nam and send ARVN 20 cartridges and 2 hand grenades per man, and no air support; once again an army with as much armor as the Wehrmacht ever had and as many trucks as Patton ever had swept south. This time ARVN was defeated, and Saigon became Ho Chi Minh city, and the Boat People began their exodus to many places — did any get to Australia? But the lesson was that US clients without US support can’t defeat Russian clients with Russian support: a lesson that one might have thought we would understood without running the experiment.

    Read More
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