The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 BlogviewFred Reed Archive
Walter Williams, Catholics, the Projects, and Schooling for Blacks
Something is Wrong Somewhere
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>
shutterstock_282063152

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New Reply
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

Some time ago I read a column on the schooling of blacks written by Walter Williams, the black economist at George Mason University, who grew up in the black housing projects of Philadelphia in the Thirties. I have read Williams for years. He is an absolutely reliable witness. He reports that all the kids could read, and that classrooms were orderly and teachers respected. Today, by all reports, in the urban black schools the kids can’t read and chaos reigns. Black kids have not gotten stupider since the Thirties. Something is wrong somewhere.

I read similar stories about chaotic, violent, illiterate Latino kids in American schools, these things being attributed to low intelligence. I live in Mexico, and see nothing even faintly resembling these stories. The statistics agree. (Mexican literacy, CIA FactBook: 95%. American literacy, US Department of Education: 86%) Something is wrong somewhere.

In 1981, I wrote a piece for Harper’s on the overwhelmingly black Catholic schools of Washington, DC, and found them to be exactly as Williams described the schools in his projects: well-behaved, and all the kids could read. The article follows. shortly.

I expected that liberals would applaud a piece demonstrating that black kids could learn far better than they did in the public schools. Instead, fury erupted. The success of the Catholics pointed up the incompetence of the teacher’s unions and the vacuity of accepted social theory. Whatever nits can be picked with the piece, whatever one believes about the relative intelligence of blacks, whites, yellows, and ed majors, it is obvious that black kids could do far, far better than they are doing.l Something is wrong somewhere.

Anyway:

The Color of Education
Harper’s, February 1981

Should anyone in authority say anything sensible about racial policy, an event unlikely to occur before the next Ice Age, he would have to say that when it is not merely futile it often injures the people it is supposed to help; that it succeeds in antagonizing whites without benefiting blacks; that it has become more of an ideological battleground than a practical program; and, finally, that it is a fraud, serving principally to benefit groups that grow fat from racial programs. He might be tempted to add that civilized man has never seen such a monumental stream of unembarrassed twaddle.

An obvious observation, which hardly anyone seems to make, is that blacks suffer less from racism than from poor education. Harvard does not reject black applicants because it dislikes blacks but because they are badly prepared. Blacks do not fail the federal entrance examination because it is rigged to exclude them but because they don’t know the answers. Equality of opportunity without equality of education is a cruel joke: giving an illiterate the right to apply to Yale isn’t giving him much.

The intelligent policy is to educate black children, something that the public schools of Washington manage, at great expense, not to do. In fact the prevailing (if unspoken) view seems to be that black children cannot be educated, an idea whose only defect is that it is wrong: the Catholic schools of Washington have been educating black children for years. The Catholic system has 12,170 students in the District, of whom 7,884, or 65 percent, are black.

On the Science Research Associates (SRA) exam, a standardized test of academic achievement, the average reading ability of eighth graders in Washington’s Catholic schools in 1979-80 was at the 52nd percentile, compared to the national norm, and at the 72nd percentile, compared to big-city norms — that is, above average. In arithmetic, the percentiles were 60 and 75 above average. In science, they were 53 and 66 — again, above average. In none of the subjects tested, which included composition, “language arts,” and social studies, were scores as low as the 50th percentile.

Most people argue, incorrectly, that the overall scores are being pulled up by the scores of white students; it is remarkable how few people will accept that black children make good grades because they are bright and well taught. But it happens that Mackin Catholic High School, on California Street, N.W., is 94 percent black, and students there average at grade level or higher when tested in reading; they score similarly in other subjects. Our Lady of Perpetual Help Elementary School, in Anacostia, one of the poorest neighborhoods in the city, has only two white students. The students in the seventh grade read at the 40th percentile, or, to put it another way, rank 10 percent below the national norm. Ninth grade students in the public schools in Anacostia rank 26 percent below. St. Anthony’s, in northeast Washington, near Catholic University, is about 90 percent black. On a composite SRA score, its eighth graders rank at the 67th percentile against the national norm, and at the 76th percentile against big-city norms. When there are virtually no whites at a school, whites cannot be responsible for the scores.

Skeptics suspect that Catholic schools get good scores by accepting only promising students. There is a little truth in this, but not much. Catholic schools in Washington do not accept hopelessly bad students or students who have other problems, such as serious police records, which would cripple them academically or cause them to disrupt classes. Some schools are more lenient than others about admissions standards, but most accept students who score below average. They do not gather up the geniuses and neglect the rest.

Why do the Catholics get better results? One reason is that the students have parents who care enough to put them in superior schools. Another reason is that Catholic schools have superior staffs, with teachers generally required to have at least a B.A. in their subjects. Also involved are academic rigor — students are often assigned two-and-a-half hours of homework — and discipline. One disruptive student can reduce a class to chaos. Catholic schools, not being subject to educational bureaucracies and political pressures, can prevent disruption, resorting, if need be, to expulsion.

ORDER IT NOW

In my estimation, the Catholic schools also profit by their respect for the students — a belief in their potential, accompanied by a recognition that they are, after all, children. At St. Anthony’s I talked to the eighth-grade English teacher, Lorraine Ferris. Ferris seems to be half scholar and half drill instructor, about right for junior high, and strikes me as being about as good as teachers get. She knows English from the gerunds up, which puts her ahead of most college English departments. “The important thing,” she says, “is to make children believe in themselves, but you can’t do it by coddling them. I won’t accept a 95 from a student who should make a 98. It’s important to them to see that they can compete. And the idea that black children can’t do the work is baloney. I see red every time I hear it.”

If black children can be educated, the question arises: Why aren’t they? The usual answer is that racism and conservatism are responsible, and much ink is spilled in exorcising these evils. But racists and conservatives have almost nothing to do with educational policy in Washington. Until recently, we’ve had a Democratic president and Congress; we have a liberal National Education Association, a black city government, a black school board, and a black electorate. They, not conservatives or racists, bear responsibility for conditions in the schools.

One may argue that in general the chief hindrances to progress for poor blacks are misguided racial policies and the attitudes of those who make them. It is important to realize that things were different twenty years ago. In the Fifties and Sixties the civil rights movement was producing results-dismantling the prevailing apartheid, for example. Unfortunately the movement somehow became bureaucratized, then became self-serving, and finally became the problem. Today the obstacle to racial progress is not Bill Buckley; it is Ted Kennedy. It isn’t the KKK; it is the NEA.

Race has become an industry. CETA, EEOC, OMBE, and other forbidding acronyms with huge payrolls exist by presiding over the status quo. Various freelance acronyms, such as NAACP, SCLC, ACLU, and PUSH, derive their importance from appearing to galvanize the governmental acronyms. Politicians and influential subcommittees thrive by conspicuously giving their attention to racial matters. The Democratic party retains blacks as a largely docile voting bloc by maintaining the flow of money for racial programs. Billions of dollars, countless jobs, and the political balance ride on keeping things as they are.

The underlying difficulty is that when enough people are employed to solve a problem, means become ends. It becomes more important to continue solving the problem, which provides jobs, than to have solved the problem, which would result in dismissals.

Not all racial functionaries cynically exploit racial division, but many do. People are remarkably adept at aligning their principles with their pocketbooks. Racial bureaucrats will always manage to persuade themselves that their particular programs are of paramount importance in the struggle against oppression. Further, their principal interest being their own interest, they will oppose the elimination of unsuccessful programs to prevent the discovery that nothing very bad would happen if they were abolished.

They have all but silenced opposition with their insistence that He who is against me is against blacks. This argument, repeated often enough, results in something close to censorship, so that it is currently almost impossible to discuss racial programs on their merits — i.e., on whether they work. Whether, for example, the welfare system needs revision isn’t considered.

The national media and the major dailies do their best to enforce the ban on open discussion. They simply won’t publish serious criticism. Relative freedom from criticism encourages a preference for moralism in place of practicality. The tendency is to see racial questions as a conflict between abstract Good and abstract Evil, in which the most important thing is to display admirable intentions, usually to the exclusion of doing anything useful.

There is a further tendency among racial functionaries to do penance for sins they haven’t committed, such as tolerating slavery. Penance is fun, but marvelously useless.

When people are more concerned with seeming good than with doing good, symbols become irresistible. Racial policy abounds in symbols that express concern, cost a lot, and miss the point. There is, for example, the Martin Luther King Memorial Library — oversized, underused, short on books, with a grandiose lobby that has enough wasted space for several simultaneous games of basketball. The District, however, doesn’t suffer from a shortage of books but from a shortage of people who can read them.

The University of the District of Columbia, actually a school for remedial reading, is similarly a symbol. Ninety percent of its freshmen read below the ninth-grade level. Although a new university in the District is not necessarily a bad idea, a fraudulent university whose students are hardly beyond the level of junior high school is unquestionably a bad idea. The sensible policy would be to improve the schools so that the city’s children would be qualified to attend a university, and then to build a university or, for that matter, several universities. But establishing a bogus university is quick and easy; teaching a city to read is slow and difficult, and produces votes a decade later.

It is fascinating that the racial establishment systematically blocks the adoption of the educational policies that would most benefit black children. For example, when Vincent Reed, superintendent of schools in the District, urged the wholly admirable idea of a special school for children with the intelligence and energy to do advanced work, the proposal was defeated.

Such schools exist in cities across the country and have worked well. Readers unfamiliar with the workings of the socially concerned mind may not immediately see why bright children should not be educated to their own level. The reason, said those who defeated the idea, is that it would be elitist. Elitism is regarded as a dreadful thing by the wealthier members of the racial establishment, who send their children to Harvard to avoid it.

Preventing elitism by rendering children illiterate is a dubious favor to them and to the nation. The social effect, of course, is to delay the emergence of black leaders and therefore to retard the progress of the race. South Africa achieves the same result by the same denial of education but is morally superior in making fewer pretenses about its intentions.

ORDER IT NOW

The racial establishment also discourages the imposition of discipline in the schools, without which teaching is impossible. The problem is horrendous in some of Washington’s schools. The students need protection against marauders from outside, and the staff need protection against physical assault by students. Teachers tell of being attacked by students with knives, of being afraid to go to certain parts of the school. Vincent Reed recently voiced his concern over security. “When I have kids being shot in schools by outside intruders and teachers being mauled by outside intruders — last year we had a young girl ten years old taken out of the building and raped — I don’t have time for rhetoric.”

Others have time for rhetoric. Ron Dellums, a black representative from California, asked at a Congressional hearing whether the presence of policemen in the schools would inhibit discussion of ideas. (Maybe. So, presumably, do knives, guns, drugs, and rapes.) It is a commonplace argument among educationists that discipline is regimentation and a means of racial repression. Illiteracy is a far better means of repression, and disorder is a sure road to illiteracy.

The racial establishment also ensures that black students have poor teachers. One might expect racial politicians to insist on providing the best obtainable teachers for black children who, being behind, desperately need them. It would not be an unreasonable demand. Given the rate of white-collar unemployment, highly educated teachers can be gotten by whistling.

Unfortunately the racial establishment, never particularly energized about the quest for academic quality, is especially unenthusiastic about finding good teachers. There are several reasons, one being that many in the race business belong to the various species of pseudointellectual riffraff that multiplied during the Sixties — psychologists, sociologists, educationists, feminists, the whole touchy-feely smorgasbord of group-gropers, anxiety-studiers, and fruit-juice drinkers who believe that the purpose of education is emotional adjustment. They seem not to have reflected that an excellent source of maladjustment is to be an unemployed semiliterate without the foggiest understanding of the surrounding world.

Educationists, who have a well-developed sense of self-preservation, understandably do not favor higher standards for teachers. Hiring good teachers means firing bad ones. Any serious attempt to get rid of deadwood means bucking the powerful teachers’ unions, which, as a variety of tests have shown, would be gutted by any insistence on competence. Moreover, dismissal of incompetent teachers would mean a heavily disproportionate dismissal of black teachers. The bald, statistically verifiable truth is that the teachers’ colleges, probably on ideological grounds, have produced an incredible proportion of incompetent black teachers. Evidence of this appears periodically, as, for example, in the results of a competency test given to applicants for teaching positions in Pinellas County, Florida (which includes St. Petersburg and Clearwater), cited in Time, June 16, 1980. To pass this grueling examination, an applicant had to be able to read at the tenth-grade level and do arithmetic at the eighth-grade level. Though they all held B.A.’s, 25 percent of the whites and 79 percent of the blacks failed. Similar statistics exist for other places.

Another major reason for the slow progress of blacks is a prejudice, palpable in racial policy though unprovable, that blacks are incapable of competing with whites. Racial functionaries will deny this with fervor; yet if they believed blacks could compete, they would advocate preparing them for competition. Instead the emphasis is on protecting them from it. The usual attitude toward blacks resembles the patronizing affection of missionary for a colony of bushmen: these benighted people are worthy in the eyes of God but obviously can’t take care of themselves, so we will do it. Whenever blacks fail to meet a standard the response is to lower the standard, abolish it, or blur it –not to educate blacks to meet the standard. The apotheosis of this sort of thinking was the lunatic notion that black children should be taught in the gibberish of the streets because it, “communicates,” the implication being that English was too difficult for them. Nobody thought English too difficult for the Vietnamese.

Paternalism has practical consequences. The unrelenting condescension supports blacks’ view of themselves as worthless. (If anyone doubts that poor blacks do indeed regard themselves as worthless, I suggest he spend some time with them.) People who think they cannot succeed do not try.

Finally, the absolute unwillingness of the racial industry to police itself — to make sure that money accomplishes the intended results — has made racial programs a synonym for corruption, waste, mismanagement, nepotism, and undeserved preference. It is hard to find a racial program that is not grotesquely abused. The District’s annual effort to provide summer jobs is typical. The jobs don’t exist, nobody tells the youths where the jobs are thought to be, no work is done if the jobs are discovered, and the youths don’t get paychecks even if they happen to do the work. Last year the same thing happened, and next year, one wearily expects, it will happen again. The pattern repeats everywhere. CETA, for example, might better be called the Comprehensive Graft and Scandal Act. Some programs lapse into frank absurdity. Under “affirmative action,” group after group musters the clout to get on the deprived-species list until, on a quick calculation, 65 percent of the population qualify as mistreated minorities.

Corruption and mismanagement inevitably lead to resentment among whites whose money is being wasted. This resentment is currently called “white backlash,” which has a comfortingly vicious sound and implies that it is someone else’s fault. (In the race business, everything is someone else’s fault.) Antagonizing half the country by shoddy performance is abysmally stupid politics, especially given that the nation would probably have few objections to sensible programs that worked. I find it hard to believe that many people would object to giving a black child a good education at a reasonable price.

(Republished from Fred on Everything by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Ideology, Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Blacks, Public Schools 
Hide 130 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
    []
  1. Priss Factor [AKA "Dominique Francon Society"] says:

    For black readers, Reed should toss his words into the Ebonics translator.

    http://joel.net/EBONICS/translator

    The first paragraph of Reed’s screed:

    Yo Some tyme ago ah read uh column on da schooling o’ blacks written by Walter Williams, da black economist at George Mason University, who grew up in da black housing projects o’ Philadelphia in da Thirties. ah gots read Williams fo’ years. He iz an absolutely reliable witness. He reports dat all da kids could read, an’ dat classrooms wuz orderly an’ beotches respected. this day, by all reports, in da urban black schools da kids can’t read an’ chaos reigns. Black kids gots not gotten stupider since da Thirties. Somethin` iz wrong somewhere Ya’ know what I’m sayin’?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    As a general rule; I would say that gay white guys do a poor job of imitating straight black guys.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
    AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
    These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
    Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
    Sharing Comment via Twitter
    /freed/walter-williams-catholics-the-projects-and-schooling-for-blacks-something-is-wrong-somewhere/#comment-1465087
    More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  2. One more time:
    The purpose of government is the looting of the governed.

    Nothing more, nothing less.

    Read More
    • Agree: Jacques Sheete
    • Replies: @The Plutonium Kid
    So you're an anarchist?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  3. Marty says:

    Fred, in ’81 was Michael Kinsley still editing Harper’s? If so, how did you like him?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  4. Fred has managed to build a case for equality based upon inadequate samples and tons of wishful thinking. Over 100 years of IQ testing form the basis for the general belief in racial IQ differences of considerable significance. Walter Williams may recall high black competence but in New Jersey in the forties, where I attended school, blacks were uniformly placed in vocational curricula. They did not prepare for college because few if any educators believed they could compete with whites. Such a belief exists today only among underground intellectuals sharing ideas at blogs that violate the Leftist prison that was once a free and open America. In other words the power of cultural Marxism and its control of academia, the media, and our basic institutions have created a corrupt social order that deifies blacks and excuses their errors and defects. Artificial promotion, false awards, and a vast stream of Leftist propaganda advertise a new age of “people of color” who will dispossess the European founders and their descendants.

    Alas, Earlier American education worked supremely well because smarter whites easily adjust to rigorous studies. Real meritocracies expose children to failure and humility, realities that progressive educators truly hate. The Left’s PC wonderland harms many innocent whites today as “people of color” are favored at every turn. Criticism is not an option in the sanctuaries of the Left. Now we must pretend that blacks and whites have equal tendencies toward criminality, athleticism, and intelligence. Real differences must be disguised and lied about. Fred needs to do his homework on the history of IQ testing to get a handle on a problem with no happy solution for egalitarians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ChaseBizzy
    Middle and upper- middle class White - American youths exist to provide Asian-American youths with a safe and functional learning environment to succeed in a meritocratic orgy of straight A's. " Earlier American" education didn't even factor in their existence.
    , @Unz Reader
    Fred Reed is making no claims about the equality of the races. He is making the claim that most blacks are capable of learning standard English and how to read, and that our catastrophic educational policies are at least as responsible as IQ differences in causing so many blacks to fail to learn those things. I think Fred Reed is right.

    Fix all the problems and we'd have a lot more literate blacks capable of doing jobs that today nobody would hire them for unless forced by the EEOC. But we'd still have more Jewish physicists than black ones.
    , @Rosamond Vincy
    The real issue here is whatever their natural abilities, the students have done worse in the public school system. It was already so bad in my home town in the 70s that not only African Baptist or A.M.E. parents sent their kids to parochial schools, but also a number of Jewish parents. Whether it's the discipline, the emphasis on direct instruction and drills as opposed to the "meaningful activities" beloved of progressive educators, or a combination of the two, the kids in Catholic schools do better in both learning and behavior.
    I'm guessing it's connected to the fact that parochial teachers have usually majored in Math, not Math Education, or English, not Language Arts Education, but some places like NY Board of Regents have tried to do an end-run around this well-known phenomenon by requiring private school teachers to take a certain number of Education credits. If they can't corrupt you, or you can't keep a straight face long enough to get those credits, they can weed you out and plant their own Pod People in the private schools.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  5. Brilliant piece by Fred. Sadly, not only the left but certain elements of the right (as evidenced by the post from “Florida Observer”) have lost sight of what’s wrong with the educational system as they are trapped by cockamamie theories. In the meantime the kids get hurt and so does the society. Standards and structure work.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  6. Rich says:

    It’s too late now to bring two parent households and discipline back to the Negro community. Those days are never coming back, if they ever actually existed. My experience in the 1970′s was that Negroes were troublemakers, always looking to start fights with White kids in my Negro majority high school in NYC. Led to a lot of the White kids dropping out or transferring. But we don’t have to worry, the Supreme Court just declared that actual learning isn’t important, as long as we have “diversity.” Now Polish-American, Jewish-American, Italian-American, even the descendants of poor Northern Europeans, whose ancestors never owned slaves, will be sacrificed on the altar of “diversity” so upper-class Whites can feel good about themselves. Why any White American would ever feel any affection for this country, that now legally discriminates against them, is beyond me.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  7. Rehmat says:

    Fred Reed – I’m really glad to know your wrote for Rupert Murdoch’s Harper’s magazine. That put you in the same ‘elite league’ like Freed Zakaria of CNN, also owned by Murdoch.

    Talking about Catholic schooling – I’m sure Walter Williams must have heard how a Black female Catholic professor Larycia Hawkins, a political science professor at America’s prestigious Evangelic Wheaton College, was fired for posing on her Facebook page:”Both Christians and Muslims worship the same God.”

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/12/15/christian-professor-wears-hijab-zionists-hit-the-wall/

    Read More
    • Replies: @WG Dupree
    What is your point? You are obviously an example of what our public schools now turn out.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  8. Schools cannot function without discipline and order.

    With discipline and order all but the most benighted can learn the 3 R’s.

    End of story.

    Read More
    • Replies: @mtn cur
    Yours is likely the most useful comment here except that the primary difference in contemporary child rearing and dog care is that the dog doesn't get a smart phone. Coon dog shock collars linked to every laggards smart phone would cause a miraculous jump in functional IQ. Kids without some concept of cause and effect will remain as estranged from actual events and conditions as congress is.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  9. Truth says:
    @Priss Factor
    For black readers, Reed should toss his words into the Ebonics translator.

    http://joel.net/EBONICS/translator

    The first paragraph of Reed's screed:

    Yo Some tyme ago ah read uh column on da schooling o' blacks written by Walter Williams, da black economist at George Mason University, who grew up in da black housing projects o' Philadelphia in da Thirties. ah gots read Williams fo' years. He iz an absolutely reliable witness. He reports dat all da kids could read, an' dat classrooms wuz orderly an' beotches respected. this day, by all reports, in da urban black schools da kids can’t read an' chaos reigns. Black kids gots not gotten stupider since da Thirties. Somethin` iz wrong somewhere Ya' know what I'm sayin'?

    As a general rule; I would say that gay white guys do a poor job of imitating straight black guys.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    gay white guys do a poor job of imitating straight black guys.
     
    Or penetrating. Or so I'm told...
    , @Anon
    You do a good impression of a straight black one, my down low brother.

    I always knew I recognized you from somewhere and here it is:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9ROOi5xagxg

    Good meeting in line Oswald Bates!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  10. SXIOPO says:

    The fundamental premise of this article is flawed: the IQ of black (and white) children in Philadelphia public school has, in fact, decreased since the 1930s. Why? The answer is a combination of laws and demographics.

    First, in the ’30s, the idea of children having an absolute right to education without regard to their behavior or educability hadn’t yet taken root in our legal system. Public schools were free to expel students with low IQs or behavior problems, and they did so regularly. Does anyone remember the scene in Forrest Gump where Forrest’s principal wanted to kick him out because he scored too low on an IQ test? That was an accurate reflection of the times, and there was nothing uncommon or illegal about it. Private schools are still allowed to do that, which explains most of the difference in outcomes.

    Second, most major cities have experienced a great deal of ‘white flight’ since the ’3os, with Philadelphia being particularly hard-hit. Despite the name, there were plenty of above-average-IQ blacks who left the city for the same reasons as their white counterparts, while lower-IQ blacks were more likely to remain.

    Third, Williams’s description makes it sound like public schools were perfectly fine in Philadelphia in the 1930s, and I’m happy to take his word for it. If true, that means most parents would have no incentive to incur the additional expense of enrolling their children in private schools. However, that’s not the case today: the vast majority of Philly’s public schools are abysmal, and the only parents who allow their children to remain in them are those who can’t afford better and/or simply don’t care. The IQ and behavior of their children are what you would expect for a population that’s selected for low income.

    Read More
    • Agree: Triumph104
    • Replies: @Florida Observor
    The past half-century has seen a stupendous change in schooling related to the victory of Leftist ideas and the intrusion of politics into every aspect of education. Philadelphia's decline is predictable as you have noted. While its public schools were never fully integrated, they at least could "clean house" by ridding the system of the worst black deviants. However, the fraction of "high IQ" blacks in any large city is unlikely to exceed 10% so schools always face the cold, hard fact of black cognitive deficiency. Walter Williams is an exception as was Thomas Sowell, Paul Robison, and a handful of others. Charter schools that manage to locate enough blacks with 120+ IQ's can trumpet their success to a gullible world grasping at straws under the pressure of PC edicts. Whites who are fortunate enough to escape bad public schools are those with the brains and money to do so. Poor whites are in serious trouble on all fronts as Charles Murray has correctly described in his book called Coming Apart.

    The new belief that ALL children can succeed is almost as bad as the myth of racial equality. IQ as well as impulsivity and aggression are not distributed equally among races or individuals. Ability grouping alone can moderate the often enormous differences among school-age children. NYC has five or six high schools that run meritocratic curricula based entirely on IQ and achievement differences. These are college prep programs that are intensely competitive but favor high IQ groups like Jews and Chinese. Leftists like Bill DiBlasio are very hostile toward such schools for obvious PC reasons.

    It is plain to see that America is faced with declining schools in all urban areas where emancipated blacks now expect equality of opportunity and RESULTS. The progressives have promoted the myth of full equality while disregarding biological truth. Now it is late in the day to confront the diversity power structure with a Report Card based upon its colossal failures and its almost criminal ignorance. Fred Reed at least is mostly on target but the Left lacks even a smidgen of good sense and scientific knowledge. Finding truth is not in their interests!
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    This is an excellent point and one that Williams seldom, if ever, ever has mentioned: Demographics. In 1930, Philadelphia's population stood around 1,950,000 with about 219k of them African-Americans. In other words, Philadelphia's total black population in 1930's was about 11%. Today, Philadelphia's black population is about 45%, roughly the same as the white population. If most of the 11% of blacks residing in Philadelphia during the 1930's was indeed well behaved then that is welcome news indeed. Although, even during antebellum days the freed blacks in Philadelphia had crime rates equivalent to the white population (and they were a much lower percentage of the total population during the 19th century). Therefore it is reasonable to assume that perhaps 1930's blacks in Philadelphia did better in school overall then they currently tend to do in 2016, that doesn't negate the fact that the same social problems existed then as they do now within the black community. It just wasn't near at the same current level. Prior to 1960's black total out of wedlock births were far less than they are today but they still were much higher than the total white out of wedlock births prior to 1960's. Such tends to be the case with crime and education. It was far better than it is now, but it was still massively higher than the total white levels of crime and educational dysfunction.

    All we have to do is ask Fred Reed a serious question: How come, if continental Africa was all that swell, that in roughly the thousands of millennia prior to contact with white civilizations they were unable to rise to the same level of the advanced white and asian societies that existed? In other words, when white Europeans first made contact with Sub-Saharan Africans on a massive level in say, about 1650-1700, the Sub-Saharan Africans were still living in roughly the stone age or just barely above it? And remember, Fred, you can't blame white racism for Sub-Saharan Africa's inabilities to form civilizations comparable to whites' when there had been no prior direct contact with whites for all those thousands of years? They were left to themselves, and we tend to know that, left to themselves for all those centuries, they still hadn't progressed much beyond the stone age. So "it's all whitey's fault!" won't cut it.

    Just sayin'.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  11. AndyBoy says:

    I like Williams, but I greet his statements of how good Black students were doing in the 30s with skepticism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Schmoe

    I like Williams, but I greet his statements of how good Black students were doing in the 30s with skepticism.
     
    Well, the ones in school were good, or at least okay.

    Schools could expel the trouble makers. Do not underestimate how much trouble even one bad kid can cause. When kids see that all their peers are following the rules, they will follow rules at a very high rate. Schools have to have near zero tolerance for disobedience else the classrooms rapidly descend into chaos.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  12. @Florida Observor
    Fred has managed to build a case for equality based upon inadequate samples and tons of wishful thinking. Over 100 years of IQ testing form the basis for the general belief in racial IQ differences of considerable significance. Walter Williams may recall high black competence but in New Jersey in the forties, where I attended school, blacks were uniformly placed in vocational curricula. They did not prepare for college because few if any educators believed they could compete with whites. Such a belief exists today only among underground intellectuals sharing ideas at blogs that violate the Leftist prison that was once a free and open America. In other words the power of cultural Marxism and its control of academia, the media, and our basic institutions have created a corrupt social order that deifies blacks and excuses their errors and defects. Artificial promotion, false awards, and a vast stream of Leftist propaganda advertise a new age of "people of color" who will dispossess the European founders and their descendants.

    Alas, Earlier American education worked supremely well because smarter whites easily adjust to rigorous studies. Real meritocracies expose children to failure and humility, realities that progressive educators truly hate. The Left's PC wonderland harms many innocent whites today as "people of color" are favored at every turn. Criticism is not an option in the sanctuaries of the Left. Now we must pretend that blacks and whites have equal tendencies toward criminality, athleticism, and intelligence. Real differences must be disguised and lied about. Fred needs to do his homework on the history of IQ testing to get a handle on a problem with no happy solution for egalitarians.

    Middle and upper- middle class White – American youths exist to provide Asian-American youths with a safe and functional learning environment to succeed in a meritocratic orgy of straight A’s. ” Earlier American” education didn’t even factor in their existence.

    Read More
    • Replies: @another fred
    Your handle would look better if you spelled Revelation correctly.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  13. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountain"] says:

    The Catholic High Schools play nasty hardball when the parents miss a tuition payment…no fooling around…high school transcripts don’t get sent out to college. But they expect you to continue paying the high property taxes to keep subsidizing Pepe’s growing LA RAZA Family.

    I’m Irish ex-Catholic….violent hatred of the Pope and the Catholic Church….

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rehmat
    Say no more .....

    http://childabuserecovery.com/pope-francis-found-guilty-of-child-trafficking-rape-murder/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  14. Only the most naive amongst us would expect schools to exist for the purpose of educating children.

    Here is the biggest single reason these monstrosities exist.:

    “Educationists, who have a well-developed sense of self-preservation…”

    Really, what else needs to be said?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  15. Rehmat says:
    @War for Blair Mountain
    The Catholic High Schools play nasty hardball when the parents miss a tuition payment...no fooling around...high school transcripts don't get sent out to college. But they expect you to continue paying the high property taxes to keep subsidizing Pepe's growing LA RAZA Family.


    I'm Irish ex-Catholic....violent hatred of the Pope and the Catholic Church....
    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  16. highrpm says:

    hollywood and the entertainment industry = sex, drugs and rock ‘n roll. i would hypothesize that the disenfranchised identify more with these industries’ low-brow products.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  17. Dr. X says:

    I’d like to see the Catholic Schools of Washington D.C. have a crack at these characters and see how successful they are…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  18. Seneca44 says:

    I can’t believe Harper’s ever published such a candid article about race. I doubt any mainstream media outlet would publish this today. Interesting how things remain the same in the race business even 35 tumultuous years later. Our Supreme Court doubled down on racial preferences yesterday, but Justice Alito wrote a fairly scathing dissent which bears reading by those of reason.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Gringo
    I can’t believe Harper’s ever published such a candid article about race.

    I recall Harper's publishing an article -IIRC also in the early 1980s -about how the Soviet Union was a big mess.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  19. @Truth
    As a general rule; I would say that gay white guys do a poor job of imitating straight black guys.

    gay white guys do a poor job of imitating straight black guys.

    Or penetrating. Or so I’m told…

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  20. Just get rid of affirmative action and you will see many of these contentious issues evaporate.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  21. Jim says:

    Fred – You’re always telling us how wonderful Mexico is and how well-educated and bookish Mexicans are. But Mexico has low PISA scores and for a country of 120 million has made little contribution to the sciences.

    Also of the 50 most violent cities in the world in 2015, 10 were in Mexico vs. 4 in the much larger US. The overwhelming number of the cities in the list were in Latin America. Not a single city on the Eurasian continent made the list. Why is Latin America so violent? Per capita GDP in Mexico is actually higher than in China (about 19k vs. 15k) but Mexican levels of violence are unheard of in China. Per capita income in India is about 7k but no city in that huge subcontinent of about a billion people was on the list.

    Latin America with about 8% of the world’s population accounts for 30% of the world’s homicides. What makes Latin Americans so prone to violence?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    What makes Latin Americans so prone to violence?
     
    I would assume part of it are market forces involved in the multi-billion dollar drug trade and the nature of that business. A corollary; what makes Americans so prone to using drugs and simultaneously making them illegal? We can't seriously, as a society, not take some responsibility in our bi-polar approach to the War-on-Drugs, can we?

    Peace.

    , @Art

    Latin America with about 8% of the world’s population accounts for 30% of the world’s homicides. What makes Latin Americans so prone to violence?
     
    Genetics - the Inca and Mayan Indians were some very bloody bastards – they practiced cruel human sacrifice. This cruelty is exciting activity – the propensity to excitement is genetically transferable.

    A small percentage of South America males with Indian blood in them can be very cruel.
    , @pink_point
    Indeed,

    Fred Reed, for admirable that his rhetoric skills are, and hardly-dubitable his intentions, falls short of the expectations of objectivity the rest of his writing elicits as soon as he touches matters related to his choices of life — which include his elected place of residence, but not only that. (To the wise, few words).
    , @mtn cur
    Contrast Spanish colonial policy in most of South and central America with that of Portugals in Brazil; you will see a big difference. Brazil only recently has begun to mimic the remainder of the region despite at least as many mind boggling problems. The Dons seem still to think the same way now as they did in 1491 and the fault lines are as apparent in Iberia as in the colonies.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  22. @ChaseBizzy
    Middle and upper- middle class White - American youths exist to provide Asian-American youths with a safe and functional learning environment to succeed in a meritocratic orgy of straight A's. " Earlier American" education didn't even factor in their existence.

    Your handle would look better if you spelled Revelation correctly.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  23. Catholic schools and other schools in today’s USA that perform well providing Negro children with an academically oriented education have one major advantage: they filter. They filter at admission because for the most part only committed Negro parents and children ever apply to these schools and they filter throughout the educational process because incorrigibly disruptive students will be expelled and hopelessly unintelligent students will be asked to leave or dropout. The students that remain are ones who can succeed in a rigorous academic environment.

    When analyzing the education of Negro students in this country one needs to start with two facts that have been demonstrated over and over and over again. The first is that on average Negroes are much less capable of academic success than Whites. Research consistently finds that the average IQ score of US Negroes is 1.1 standard deviations below the average score for US Whites. In practical terms this means that 85% of Negroes in this country have an aptitude for acacdemic work that is below the White average. Less than 5% of Negroes have an academic aptitude suitable for real college or university study. So somewhere around 85% of Negro students are going to have great difficulty with rigorous academic work at the high school level and only about one-third of these belong in college preparatory programs.

    The second fact, confirmed in numberless peer-reviewed research publications and daily crime statistics, is that Negroes are on average much less psychologically suited to academic work than Whites. They are much more prone to violent behavior, much less capable of long-term planning and impulse control. The data here are much less firm than for IQ but they certainly suggest that a large proportion of Negro students will not benefit from and will actively interfere with educational programs and policies that work well for other races.

    Negro children are as deserving of a good education as White children. But if we drop the “progressive” lefty propaganda this does not mean that all Negro children can benefit from or even deserve the same kind of education as White children. Once we recognize this we can start thinking about what different kinds of education might be appropriate for different kinds of children and how these might be implemented.

    Major problems will still remain. Some children and their parents will have to be discouraged from hopelessly unrealistic dreams. The ACLU and like organizations will have to live with the fact that iron discipline is the only way to educate some children for adult life. But first we need to address the biggest problem, the elephant in the living room, there are enormous racial differences in the capacity to benefit from an academic education.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mark F.
    UC-Berkeley, where affirmative action is banned, only has about 3% black students, mostly female.
    , @LiveFreeOrDie
    People often forget that a large spectrum of people referred to as "black" are in reality part white, including our President. The inexorable logic of evolution means that many of these successful blacks owe it to their white genes.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  24. @SXIOPO
    The fundamental premise of this article is flawed: the IQ of black (and white) children in Philadelphia public school has, in fact, decreased since the 1930s. Why? The answer is a combination of laws and demographics.

    First, in the '30s, the idea of children having an absolute right to education without regard to their behavior or educability hadn't yet taken root in our legal system. Public schools were free to expel students with low IQs or behavior problems, and they did so regularly. Does anyone remember the scene in Forrest Gump where Forrest's principal wanted to kick him out because he scored too low on an IQ test? That was an accurate reflection of the times, and there was nothing uncommon or illegal about it. Private schools are still allowed to do that, which explains most of the difference in outcomes.

    Second, most major cities have experienced a great deal of 'white flight' since the '3os, with Philadelphia being particularly hard-hit. Despite the name, there were plenty of above-average-IQ blacks who left the city for the same reasons as their white counterparts, while lower-IQ blacks were more likely to remain.

    Third, Williams's description makes it sound like public schools were perfectly fine in Philadelphia in the 1930s, and I'm happy to take his word for it. If true, that means most parents would have no incentive to incur the additional expense of enrolling their children in private schools. However, that's not the case today: the vast majority of Philly's public schools are abysmal, and the only parents who allow their children to remain in them are those who can't afford better and/or simply don't care. The IQ and behavior of their children are what you would expect for a population that's selected for low income.

    The past half-century has seen a stupendous change in schooling related to the victory of Leftist ideas and the intrusion of politics into every aspect of education. Philadelphia’s decline is predictable as you have noted. While its public schools were never fully integrated, they at least could “clean house” by ridding the system of the worst black deviants. However, the fraction of “high IQ” blacks in any large city is unlikely to exceed 10% so schools always face the cold, hard fact of black cognitive deficiency. Walter Williams is an exception as was Thomas Sowell, Paul Robison, and a handful of others. Charter schools that manage to locate enough blacks with 120+ IQ’s can trumpet their success to a gullible world grasping at straws under the pressure of PC edicts. Whites who are fortunate enough to escape bad public schools are those with the brains and money to do so. Poor whites are in serious trouble on all fronts as Charles Murray has correctly described in his book called Coming Apart.

    The new belief that ALL children can succeed is almost as bad as the myth of racial equality. IQ as well as impulsivity and aggression are not distributed equally among races or individuals. Ability grouping alone can moderate the often enormous differences among school-age children. NYC has five or six high schools that run meritocratic curricula based entirely on IQ and achievement differences. These are college prep programs that are intensely competitive but favor high IQ groups like Jews and Chinese. Leftists like Bill DiBlasio are very hostile toward such schools for obvious PC reasons.

    It is plain to see that America is faced with declining schools in all urban areas where emancipated blacks now expect equality of opportunity and RESULTS. The progressives have promoted the myth of full equality while disregarding biological truth. Now it is late in the day to confront the diversity power structure with a Report Card based upon its colossal failures and its almost criminal ignorance. Fred Reed at least is mostly on target but the Left lacks even a smidgen of good sense and scientific knowledge. Finding truth is not in their interests!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  25. “What makes Latin Americans so prone to violence?”

    Aside from nearly constant Yankee undermining of their societies, and their corrupt ruling classes (sorry for being redundant), it’s no doubt due largely to a combination of the legacy and the genes left behind by the like of Cortes, Pizarro and Alvarez and their underclowns.

    Are Chicago and LA, etc. in Latin Amerika?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  26. I love your work, Fred. I don’t always agree with what you write and I realize that many people find you objectionable and offensive. It takes all kinds.

    What has changed since Williams youth?

    1. If you read his _Up from the projects_ he mentions usually having one or more jobs as a youth–the labor market was free to absorb youths (Black or White) who could get a mundane job by asking for it, and then demonstrate employability by following directions.

    Imagine that–Williams said that most of his peers (Black “Project or Ghetto Kids”) had part time jobs–many of them had 2 or 3.

    Kids who didn’t like school could leave early and start working for a living–the labor market drew troublesome kids out of the classroom into the workforce (or at least onto the street corner where they could hang out). They learned to do something–fix cars, deliver packages, drive trucks, work in a factory.

    2. The abandonment of what James Q. Wilson calls “the investment in impulse control” during the mid 19th century. By the 1960s the elites and the “chattering classes” were enamored of free expression of one’s personality. This brought us some benefits (hippie computer wizards of Silicon Valley?) but real costs.

    3. The “oppositional culture” of minority youth has to have something to oppose. Catholic schools have the ability to instill respect (at least grudging) for authority. In Mexico, or in a school in Africa, there is nothing much to oppose except to the extent that youth likes to oppose the adults. It is in a multi-racial, class stratified setting that minority kids get status by opposing and subverting ethnically different authority. It has to do with “groupness.” In Mexico or Africa, the kids get status by doing well–by doing well at something. School, sports, business, looks.

    4. More generally, many kids aren’t learning to control their attention and their behavior. It used to be the case that this was stressed in the home, or the school, or somewhere–it was part of an invisible curriculum somewhere. This is more obvious for boys. I’m guessing it affects all classes, races, age cohorts (as they progress) and both sexes–but it’s probably most obvious with boys (not girls) from the “lower classes.”

    Anecdotally, it’s claimed that teachers can tell the difference between kids who are taken to church (where they have to sit still) and kids who never see the inside of a church.

    Boys seem to learn self-control better from men–often from their own biological father, or at least from some male authority figure who is not just stern but inspiring of respect. Read Clarence Thomas’ story of his grandfather. Love him or hate him, but you can learn a lot from reading Clarence Thomas memoir of being raised by his grandfather, a self-employed, multi-skilled disciplinarian.

    5. Remember the old ad campaign slogan about Reading is Fundamental? It’s true. Lots of kids can’t read, can hardly read. Literacy education is non-trivial. Charlemagne never learned to read–it wasn’t in the job description. His priestly advisors took up the slack. We have made reading more important than ever–but we don’t teach it well. Then we insist kids stay in school anyway.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  27. I think people in general have a psychological block against accepting that some problems are insolvable. Any kind of tough discipline or standards would eventually involve the removal of over half the urban classroom from the class. Abracadabra! We suddenly see something like Fred’s example of a private Catholic institution, where it was not teaching the average but instead the above average, whose parents were bright and involved enough to enroll the child and the child could meet the standards. You should at least make an effort to grasp the conclusions of the last fifty years of psychometrics research before calling it bunk, many of the arguments to “fix” education put forth here have been tried and there exists data showing the results.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Schmoe
    The point isn't that the problem is soluble to the level of blacks as a group performing as high as other groups. Rather, the point is that blacks can do much better not just academically, but socially. Blacks have a higher fraction of students that must be expelled in order to maintain discipline and a healthy environment. Somewhere in the area of 5% of blacks are too disruptive to learn in a traditional classroom, whereas only 0.5% of whites and 0.1% of Asian Americans are too mentally disturbed to sit in a normal class. Practically however, political problems arise when taking 1 of 20 black kids out of school due to derangement, but only 1 of 200 white kids and 1 of 1000 Asian American kids out.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  28. mtn cur says:

    No wonder you went to Mexico Fred; your notions are heresy to the one size fits all concepts of both the right and left wing front men who control their sides contemporary political dialogue. A hefty book would be needed to mention all the contributory conditions or exceptions found in this subject; thus, few would bother to read it. Anyway, at the time and place where I was born, computer aided design was barely even a theory and so, thousands of girls with math degrees did the computing for weapons system design and testing and among these were a proportionate number of black women who did indeed receive degrees during the 1930′s. Yup! That’s right folks; back then, tar baby not only could do calculus, but was sorcerers apprentice to the doctors of doomsday, helping design things that would fly around and go bang. At the time, affirmative action meant that black girls were segregated and worked in the west section. Anyone who did not meet the engineers need for accurate numbers got a ride to the bus station. I note that the investment corps who get their cut from the “race industry,” likewise receive healthy subsidy from food stamps and F-22 fighter production and maintenance. It is proof of a beneficent god that “one size fits all” works no better for bra size than it does for anything else except for propaganda.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  29. @AndyBoy
    I like Williams, but I greet his statements of how good Black students were doing in the 30s with skepticism.

    I like Williams, but I greet his statements of how good Black students were doing in the 30s with skepticism.

    Well, the ones in school were good, or at least okay.

    Schools could expel the trouble makers. Do not underestimate how much trouble even one bad kid can cause. When kids see that all their peers are following the rules, they will follow rules at a very high rate. Schools have to have near zero tolerance for disobedience else the classrooms rapidly descend into chaos.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  30. @BigRedEyeOfJupiter
    I think people in general have a psychological block against accepting that some problems are insolvable. Any kind of tough discipline or standards would eventually involve the removal of over half the urban classroom from the class. Abracadabra! We suddenly see something like Fred’s example of a private Catholic institution, where it was not teaching the average but instead the above average, whose parents were bright and involved enough to enroll the child and the child could meet the standards. You should at least make an effort to grasp the conclusions of the last fifty years of psychometrics research before calling it bunk, many of the arguments to "fix" education put forth here have been tried and there exists data showing the results.

    The point isn’t that the problem is soluble to the level of blacks as a group performing as high as other groups. Rather, the point is that blacks can do much better not just academically, but socially. Blacks have a higher fraction of students that must be expelled in order to maintain discipline and a healthy environment. Somewhere in the area of 5% of blacks are too disruptive to learn in a traditional classroom, whereas only 0.5% of whites and 0.1% of Asian Americans are too mentally disturbed to sit in a normal class. Practically however, political problems arise when taking 1 of 20 black kids out of school due to derangement, but only 1 of 200 white kids and 1 of 1000 Asian American kids out.

    Read More
    • Agree: Triumph104
    • Replies: @Stan d Mute

    Practically however, political problems arise when taking 1 of 20 black kids out of school due to derangement, but only 1 of 200 white kids and 1 of 1000 Asian American kids out.
     
    Indeed! And the reality is even more grim. It's not just 5%, but more like 20% and perhaps even as high as 50% irredeemable. What use has the 21st Century for anyone with an IQ of <85? Yet that's what we face in America's hybridized negro population. For their full-blooded Bantu cousins still in mother Africa, half the population has an IQ below 70.

    How do you educate a kid with an IQ of 80 in the same school, let alone the same classroom or curriculum, as a kid with an IQ of 110? And yet our education dogma is that all these kids have the same potential and must therefore have the same outcome, kids with IQ 140 and kids with IQ 70 alike. This denial of reality guarantees catastrophic failure just as surely as an engineering dogma insisting that goose feathers are interchangeable with steel - just ignore the pile of bodies at the bottom of the gorge where the bridge once stood. The failure of the extreme dull witted is perhaps inevitable in a society which no longer has any use for brainless labor, but this failure factory is also severely harmful to our brightest and best along with the concomitant losses for society and civilization as a whole. Why would a very bright young white lad even try when he's told before beginning that the obvious imbecile negro seated next to him is his better in every respect? Or that there is something wrong with him for not behaving exactly like the average intellect and temperament girls in his class? How many bright white boys have we thus destroyed? How many more will we sacrifice on the altar of "diversity"?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  31. mtn cur says:
    @another fred
    Schools cannot function without discipline and order.

    With discipline and order all but the most benighted can learn the 3 R's.

    End of story.

    Yours is likely the most useful comment here except that the primary difference in contemporary child rearing and dog care is that the dog doesn’t get a smart phone. Coon dog shock collars linked to every laggards smart phone would cause a miraculous jump in functional IQ. Kids without some concept of cause and effect will remain as estranged from actual events and conditions as congress is.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    the dog doesn’t get a smart phone
     
    Excellent point, which is why dogs are sometimes more behaved. To put a device in the hands of a twelve-year old from which he/she can access anything/anyone and they can access him/her - is absolute madness in my mind, but I see it happening again and again. I would get rid of mine if my company would let me. As one of my teachers stated; "Smart phones make for stupid people." I remember I used to have at least 10-15 phone numbers memorized before I had one and now it's probably down to 4-5. My daughter mentioned one of her friends was almost failing one of her classes in highschool (got a 'D') and the parents resorted to taking away her cell phone as punishment - for a week - wow!

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  32. @Bill Jones
    One more time:
    The purpose of government is the looting of the governed.

    Nothing more, nothing less.

    So you’re an anarchist?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  33. Talha says:
    @mtn cur
    Yours is likely the most useful comment here except that the primary difference in contemporary child rearing and dog care is that the dog doesn't get a smart phone. Coon dog shock collars linked to every laggards smart phone would cause a miraculous jump in functional IQ. Kids without some concept of cause and effect will remain as estranged from actual events and conditions as congress is.

    the dog doesn’t get a smart phone

    Excellent point, which is why dogs are sometimes more behaved. To put a device in the hands of a twelve-year old from which he/she can access anything/anyone and they can access him/her – is absolute madness in my mind, but I see it happening again and again. I would get rid of mine if my company would let me. As one of my teachers stated; “Smart phones make for stupid people.” I remember I used to have at least 10-15 phone numbers memorized before I had one and now it’s probably down to 4-5. My daughter mentioned one of her friends was almost failing one of her classes in highschool (got a ‘D’) and the parents resorted to taking away her cell phone as punishment – for a week – wow!

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @mtn cur
    My neighbors sometimes remark, "your dogs mind better than my kids. " I rejoin, That's because they are MY dogs. Would you like to rent a shock collar? Discipline allows my dogs to run free while I exercise them when bike riding; they get to be dogs because they listen to good instruction. I note that your thoughtful and gentle comments are alternate universe to islamaphobes here in the bible belt, but these poor folks have managed to conceal or destroy all that is good in Christianity through false teaching by post literate parade chasing preachers.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  34. mtn cur says:
    @Talha

    the dog doesn’t get a smart phone
     
    Excellent point, which is why dogs are sometimes more behaved. To put a device in the hands of a twelve-year old from which he/she can access anything/anyone and they can access him/her - is absolute madness in my mind, but I see it happening again and again. I would get rid of mine if my company would let me. As one of my teachers stated; "Smart phones make for stupid people." I remember I used to have at least 10-15 phone numbers memorized before I had one and now it's probably down to 4-5. My daughter mentioned one of her friends was almost failing one of her classes in highschool (got a 'D') and the parents resorted to taking away her cell phone as punishment - for a week - wow!

    Peace.

    My neighbors sometimes remark, “your dogs mind better than my kids. ” I rejoin, That’s because they are MY dogs. Would you like to rent a shock collar? Discipline allows my dogs to run free while I exercise them when bike riding; they get to be dogs because they listen to good instruction. I note that your thoughtful and gentle comments are alternate universe to islamaphobes here in the bible belt, but these poor folks have managed to conceal or destroy all that is good in Christianity through false teaching by post literate parade chasing preachers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey mtncur,

    No problem, any good character in me should rightly be attributed to the efforts and prayers of my parents and teachers.

    As far as the people of the Bible-belt, unfortunately they are being duped and this is by design. Wars need hostility to keep them going and there is a cottage industry of self-proclaimed experts, fake ex-Muslims, ignorant preachers, etc. that are making money hand-over-fist by whipping up this frenzy. I remember similar sentiments during the Cold-War when I was growing up in California, we thought Russians were beasts, barely human. We drank the Hollywood koolaid. For instance, Fox has invited - multiple times - people like Anjem Choudary and called him 'Imam' in their interviews even though he has zero qualifications to speak on the subject of Islamic law, give fatwas, etc. But, hopefully, cooler heads will prevail; the Southern folks are known for their cordial manners and hospitality, a very laudable set of traits that I hope God preserves in them from the vicissitudes of the times.

    May God preserve and honor you (and your well-behaved dogs!).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  35. Talha says:
    @Jim
    Fred - You're always telling us how wonderful Mexico is and how well-educated and bookish Mexicans are. But Mexico has low PISA scores and for a country of 120 million has made little contribution to the sciences.

    Also of the 50 most violent cities in the world in 2015, 10 were in Mexico vs. 4 in the much larger US. The overwhelming number of the cities in the list were in Latin America. Not a single city on the Eurasian continent made the list. Why is Latin America so violent? Per capita GDP in Mexico is actually higher than in China (about 19k vs. 15k) but Mexican levels of violence are unheard of in China. Per capita income in India is about 7k but no city in that huge subcontinent of about a billion people was on the list.

    Latin America with about 8% of the world's population accounts for 30% of the world's homicides. What makes Latin Americans so prone to violence?

    What makes Latin Americans so prone to violence?

    I would assume part of it are market forces involved in the multi-billion dollar drug trade and the nature of that business. A corollary; what makes Americans so prone to using drugs and simultaneously making them illegal? We can’t seriously, as a society, not take some responsibility in our bi-polar approach to the War-on-Drugs, can we?

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @mad1
    El Paso should be a required destination for all white Americans for a lesson in how the Majority in our "Diversity" culture should treat Minorities,

    El Paso Ranked No. 1 Safest City in America for Fourth Year

    El Paso is 80% Hispanic

    For the record I am a product of the strong merging of Mexican and German culture in Texas
    for 150 years now (my family arrived in 1842)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  36. Gene Su says:

    I have read this article years ago on Mr. Reed’s sight. I have also read some of the comments here. I think a lot of people here are missing the point.

    1. I don’t think the gap between blacks, Hispanics, whites, and Asians is based on genetics and intelligence. I think that it is based on discipline, culture, and attitudes. The predominant culture among far too many minorities does not put any priority on obtaining an education or learning useful skills. Rather, the emphasis is placed on behaving in an intimidating manner to extort respect. Watch any rap video if you don’t believe me.

    2. I think it is a liberal delusion to think we can judge “school” away this attitude. Confining a child to a room until he learns his ABC’s is counter productive. If a child doesn’t want to learn, no amount of cajoling will get him to learn.

    3. Having said that, the problem with our schools is not that they try to educate children who can’t be educated. The problem is that they were never meant to educate children. The argument that public schools have been instituted to lift up the destitute and disadvantage is total hogwash. For the last century or so, American elites have wanted our children to be docile and controllable: They realized they can accomplish this through the use of the following useful harms:

    a. Ignorant people are easier to control than educated people. Sam Blumenfeld has written on how reading instruction has been made ineffectual since phonics are no longer emphasized. This is the reason why so many black children are functionally illiterate.

    b. Inattentive children grow up to become inattentive adults. For most of the 12 years children spent in the class room, they learn silly things that they will never have to use in their adult life from an instructor who sounds like Ben Stein’s character. When they become adults, they become inattentive to current events such as the fact that Bush Jr went into Iraq in response to a terrorist group based in Afghanistan.

    c. Children who are not shown how to be competent will not know how to be competent when they grow up. Note that many text books today have many mistakes in them. A lot of the younger teachers do not have a strong grasp on spelling, grammar, and math. Furthermore, they are instructed not to correct their charges’ work. There is a connection between this and the new data entry guy in the next cubicle that make mistakes in every record he processes.

    4. You can bet your bottom dollar that black elites know exactly what is going on in the public schools. They support it so that they can more easily control their constituencies.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marty
    Are you unaware that most "elite" blacks (I.e. six figure income) only get that way as a result of the black jobs program known as the public schools?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  37. WG Dupree says:
    @Rehmat
    Fred Reed - I'm really glad to know your wrote for Rupert Murdoch's Harper's magazine. That put you in the same 'elite league' like Freed Zakaria of CNN, also owned by Murdoch.

    Talking about Catholic schooling - I'm sure Walter Williams must have heard how a Black female Catholic professor Larycia Hawkins, a political science professor at America’s prestigious Evangelic Wheaton College, was fired for posing on her Facebook page:"Both Christians and Muslims worship the same God."

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/12/15/christian-professor-wears-hijab-zionists-hit-the-wall/

    What is your point? You are obviously an example of what our public schools now turn out.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rehmat
    My point was that Western education is producing so many of idiots like you darling.

    Thank Holy Cow, I never studied at Western schools that produce low IQ people like you.

    Last year, Ontario Judge Heather McArthur sentenced professor Benjamin Levin (University of Toronto) to three-year in prison for marketing child pornography.

    Levin, according to Judge McArthur, “urged people he met online to sadistically sexually assault their children in his quest for sexual thrills.”

    Levin, 63, pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography, making child pornography – a charge stemming from an explicit story he wrote – and counselling the indictable offence of sexual assault. He was originally charged with seven child porn-related offences.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/05/31/jewish-professor-convicted-for-marketing-child-porn/
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  38. WG Dupree says:

    A couple of truths that I have learned from working with people in business would apply to the educational system, regardless of race:

    1. People always operate to the lowest expectation
    2. Those expectations are set at the highest level of authority

    In the case of children, parents are the highest level of authority. The key to driving people to success is setting high expectations. This is not to say that someone who has an aptitude to be an auto mechanic should be expected to perform abstract algebra or ace a med school exam, but he should be expected to meet or even exceed a high bar for his talents. Parents would do well to take interest in their children’s education, instead of viewing their children as a nuisance and outsourcing their education totally to an inept bureaucracy.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  39. Talha says:
    @mtn cur
    My neighbors sometimes remark, "your dogs mind better than my kids. " I rejoin, That's because they are MY dogs. Would you like to rent a shock collar? Discipline allows my dogs to run free while I exercise them when bike riding; they get to be dogs because they listen to good instruction. I note that your thoughtful and gentle comments are alternate universe to islamaphobes here in the bible belt, but these poor folks have managed to conceal or destroy all that is good in Christianity through false teaching by post literate parade chasing preachers.

    Hey mtncur,

    No problem, any good character in me should rightly be attributed to the efforts and prayers of my parents and teachers.

    As far as the people of the Bible-belt, unfortunately they are being duped and this is by design. Wars need hostility to keep them going and there is a cottage industry of self-proclaimed experts, fake ex-Muslims, ignorant preachers, etc. that are making money hand-over-fist by whipping up this frenzy. I remember similar sentiments during the Cold-War when I was growing up in California, we thought Russians were beasts, barely human. We drank the Hollywood koolaid. For instance, Fox has invited – multiple times – people like Anjem Choudary and called him ‘Imam’ in their interviews even though he has zero qualifications to speak on the subject of Islamic law, give fatwas, etc. But, hopefully, cooler heads will prevail; the Southern folks are known for their cordial manners and hospitality, a very laudable set of traits that I hope God preserves in them from the vicissitudes of the times.

    May God preserve and honor you (and your well-behaved dogs!).

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    they are being duped and this is by design.

    So what kind of duping goes on without design?

    I see that you have a kindred spirit in mtn cur.

    The left side of the curve does not fail within its capabilities, whether in Iraq or Appalachia. If there is failure, it is because the right side is failing to achieve within its capabilities. You two should take that to heart and quite whining about the peasants mucking up the place and concentrate on how your above the curve fellow-travelers are letting the place fall to shit.
    , @Ace
    ** Russians were beasts **

    The ones who shot MAJ Nicholson like a dog were. And who staffed the CHEKA, NKVD and SMERSH. And those who conducted The Red Terror and Holodomor.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  40. School environment works well with certain types of kids who are proportionally common-to-prevalent among euro-caucasians and east asians because it ”respect” or adhere easily with the biological timing of most of them.

    Maintain many-to-most black adolescents, specially men, in the school environment is like try to educate a half-wolfe to be a dog among dogs.

    prevalent ”subsaharian’ psycho-cognitive types seems quintessentially a kind of (self-)adapted adhd, attention ”déficit”, hyperactivity and subsequently risk taking, no-respect for polite or looking-submissive authority…

    School environment is the first real social environment of the societies and many-to-most blacks, specially men and probably who are native of western subsaharian regions just will act as a quasi-adult exploding inside by its hormones.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  41. globy says:

    Old friends of mine went through US public education in the nineteen-thirties and told me about their experiences. Even in small towns in Kentucky, high school students were trained in subjects like higher math, surveying, accounting, business management, chemistry, and the sciences.

    In nineteen-thirties depression-era America, students were being groomed to take their place in future manufacturing and business. Whether or not there were jobs available, American youth were being taught to become business managers, scientists, and skilled professionals for what would become the world’s economic powerhouse (as the ‘last man standing’ after WWII, it was provident to provide business and scientific oriented education.)

    Perhaps the hard times helped to instill the necessity for a “good education” as the foundation for a better life.

    Read More
    • Replies: @mtn cur
    See Jesse Stuarts "The Thread That Runs So True," for a snapshot of education in the Ky Cumberlands in the twenties and thirties.
    , @BigRedEyeOfJupiter
    Only half of potential high school students completed high school in the 1930s...Also, the demographics were vastly different than what we have today.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  42. pyrrhus says:

    I don’t think there’s any argument with what many people have observed, including Walter Williams, and even myself at a much later period, which is that black students, and all students, do far better in a disciplined, structured school than otherwise. The objections are just liberal Teachers’ Union BS….Nor is there any doubt that the average intelligent difference between black kids and white kids is and always has been about 1 standard deviation. But for the 1/6 of black kids who are as intelligent or more intelligent than average white kids, the difference in opportunity opened up by good schools is enormous….

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ace
    And the white kids paid an astronomically high price for having to endure the 5/6ths.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  43. Mark F. says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...
    Catholic schools and other schools in today's USA that perform well providing Negro children with an academically oriented education have one major advantage: they filter. They filter at admission because for the most part only committed Negro parents and children ever apply to these schools and they filter throughout the educational process because incorrigibly disruptive students will be expelled and hopelessly unintelligent students will be asked to leave or dropout. The students that remain are ones who can succeed in a rigorous academic environment.

    When analyzing the education of Negro students in this country one needs to start with two facts that have been demonstrated over and over and over again. The first is that on average Negroes are much less capable of academic success than Whites. Research consistently finds that the average IQ score of US Negroes is 1.1 standard deviations below the average score for US Whites. In practical terms this means that 85% of Negroes in this country have an aptitude for acacdemic work that is below the White average. Less than 5% of Negroes have an academic aptitude suitable for real college or university study. So somewhere around 85% of Negro students are going to have great difficulty with rigorous academic work at the high school level and only about one-third of these belong in college preparatory programs.

    The second fact, confirmed in numberless peer-reviewed research publications and daily crime statistics, is that Negroes are on average much less psychologically suited to academic work than Whites. They are much more prone to violent behavior, much less capable of long-term planning and impulse control. The data here are much less firm than for IQ but they certainly suggest that a large proportion of Negro students will not benefit from and will actively interfere with educational programs and policies that work well for other races.

    Negro children are as deserving of a good education as White children. But if we drop the "progressive" lefty propaganda this does not mean that all Negro children can benefit from or even deserve the same kind of education as White children. Once we recognize this we can start thinking about what different kinds of education might be appropriate for different kinds of children and how these might be implemented.

    Major problems will still remain. Some children and their parents will have to be discouraged from hopelessly unrealistic dreams. The ACLU and like organizations will have to live with the fact that iron discipline is the only way to educate some children for adult life. But first we need to address the biggest problem, the elephant in the living room, there are enormous racial differences in the capacity to benefit from an academic education.

    UC-Berkeley, where affirmative action is banned, only has about 3% black students, mostly female.

    Read More
    • Replies: @pink_point
    [Concealing one's identity with multiple handles is improper behavior; use a single handle or just Anonymous or Anon.]

    That's like to say, nature's vanity's bitch.

    Come on. Why can't anybody see that different people can't live together in a democratic country that's not based on oppression?

    They aren't going to be equal anyway, and, actually, the less "oppression" is there, the worse the less able will feel — with all what that means in terms of mental health, and politics (where there is a certain kind of hurtful truths, there will be anger; where anger is, politicians and other demagogues eager to exploit it will be too).

    There are at least 4 well-defined ethnic groups with 4 different, well different indeed, levels of mean intelligence in the USA.
    It's not so hard to figure why a very large majority of who died in the Twin Towers where Jews, is it?
    Or why Asians are going to nearly monopolyze Caltech, where they have decided to keep being a real technical university.

    Difference will always mean envy, when humans are involved. (And, as some of us can perhaps see, abuse of power on the part of the most skilled.)
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  44. Gringo says:
    @Seneca44
    I can't believe Harper's ever published such a candid article about race. I doubt any mainstream media outlet would publish this today. Interesting how things remain the same in the race business even 35 tumultuous years later. Our Supreme Court doubled down on racial preferences yesterday, but Justice Alito wrote a fairly scathing dissent which bears reading by those of reason.

    I can’t believe Harper’s ever published such a candid article about race.

    I recall Harper’s publishing an article -IIRC also in the early 1980s -about how the Soviet Union was a big mess.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  45. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Ebonics is fine for those who wish to live as those who speak Ebonics do.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  46. Art says:
    @Jim
    Fred - You're always telling us how wonderful Mexico is and how well-educated and bookish Mexicans are. But Mexico has low PISA scores and for a country of 120 million has made little contribution to the sciences.

    Also of the 50 most violent cities in the world in 2015, 10 were in Mexico vs. 4 in the much larger US. The overwhelming number of the cities in the list were in Latin America. Not a single city on the Eurasian continent made the list. Why is Latin America so violent? Per capita GDP in Mexico is actually higher than in China (about 19k vs. 15k) but Mexican levels of violence are unheard of in China. Per capita income in India is about 7k but no city in that huge subcontinent of about a billion people was on the list.

    Latin America with about 8% of the world's population accounts for 30% of the world's homicides. What makes Latin Americans so prone to violence?

    Latin America with about 8% of the world’s population accounts for 30% of the world’s homicides. What makes Latin Americans so prone to violence?

    Genetics – the Inca and Mayan Indians were some very bloody bastards – they practiced cruel human sacrifice. This cruelty is exciting activity – the propensity to excitement is genetically transferable.

    A small percentage of South America males with Indian blood in them can be very cruel.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    But Latin America already was less criminal, is not just the ''in-the-genes''. It's a horrible combination of usually long term bad governments and yes, disposition to the criminality. I think criminality is lower in North Korea even with that shit ''government''.

    I also think that latin america have suffered with other problems and exactly with two connected problems:

    - urban swelling caused by uncontrolled rural exodus

    - demographic and dysgenic explosion, increasing the %/proportion of young and dysfunctional people, without jobs for all.

    the spectrum of the criminal way of life become large when the government is extremely incompetent, bad , corrupted


    the demographic explosition in latin america was not followed by increasing in the well distributed wealth


    bad environments inflame the bad that we have and we know that some people simply born more evil, other people born borderline to become criminal and also we have a even larger spectrum of corruptible people.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  47. Rehmat says:
    @WG Dupree
    What is your point? You are obviously an example of what our public schools now turn out.

    My point was that Western education is producing so many of idiots like you darling.

    Thank Holy Cow, I never studied at Western schools that produce low IQ people like you.

    Last year, Ontario Judge Heather McArthur sentenced professor Benjamin Levin (University of Toronto) to three-year in prison for marketing child pornography.

    Levin, according to Judge McArthur, “urged people he met online to sadistically sexually assault their children in his quest for sexual thrills.”

    Levin, 63, pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography, making child pornography – a charge stemming from an explicit story he wrote – and counselling the indictable offence of sexual assault. He was originally charged with seven child porn-related offences.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/05/31/jewish-professor-convicted-for-marketing-child-porn/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    I believe you just reconfirmed WG Dupree's point. Either that or you are borderline autistic.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  48. @Rehmat
    My point was that Western education is producing so many of idiots like you darling.

    Thank Holy Cow, I never studied at Western schools that produce low IQ people like you.

    Last year, Ontario Judge Heather McArthur sentenced professor Benjamin Levin (University of Toronto) to three-year in prison for marketing child pornography.

    Levin, according to Judge McArthur, “urged people he met online to sadistically sexually assault their children in his quest for sexual thrills.”

    Levin, 63, pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography, making child pornography – a charge stemming from an explicit story he wrote – and counselling the indictable offence of sexual assault. He was originally charged with seven child porn-related offences.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/05/31/jewish-professor-convicted-for-marketing-child-porn/

    I believe you just reconfirmed WG Dupree’s point. Either that or you are borderline autistic.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  49. mtn cur says:
    @globy
    Old friends of mine went through US public education in the nineteen-thirties and told me about their experiences. Even in small towns in Kentucky, high school students were trained in subjects like higher math, surveying, accounting, business management, chemistry, and the sciences.

    In nineteen-thirties depression-era America, students were being groomed to take their place in future manufacturing and business. Whether or not there were jobs available, American youth were being taught to become business managers, scientists, and skilled professionals for what would become the world's economic powerhouse (as the 'last man standing' after WWII, it was provident to provide business and scientific oriented education.)

    Perhaps the hard times helped to instill the necessity for a "good education" as the foundation for a better life.

    See Jesse Stuarts “The Thread That Runs So True,” for a snapshot of education in the Ky Cumberlands in the twenties and thirties.

    Read More
    • Replies: @globy
    mtn cur says:
    See Jesse Stuarts “The Thread That Runs So True,” for a snapshot of education in the Ky Cumberlands in the twenties and thirties.


    Thank you for the recommendation, it looks like an interesting book from the reviews... A man teaching from age seventeen in a one room rural schoolhouse exemplifies true education - inspiring the individual to learn on their own, rather than relying on rote memorization as taught in modern educational systems.

    Jesse Stuart, in the 1920's rural schoolhouse, was a true educator in that he had control over his class and he had to design and organize how he presented his subjects. Today, specific educational subjects are packaged and sold to public school districts by educational publishing houses. Just like training in the military, every student gets the same lecture, the same course materials, and even the same joke, all prepackaged in the teacher's "curriculum guide" to be delivered over and over again, replete with CD-Rom powerpoints for the class to follow. The teacher, even if they have any good sense or ability, must conform to the curriculum guide if they want to earn a check. Any deviation is considered heresy of modern educational method.

    By way of return for the book suggestion, I might suggest educator John Gatto's famously ignored book, "The Underground History of American Education" likely available online for a download. Gatto describes the bureaucratic hierarchy of the educational monolith in great detail and the turgid, regimented, mentally dead classrooms; and above all the shaming and destruction of children's native curiosity and imagination. If you want to know why US schools don't work and children don't get an education, take a look at Gatto's book.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  50. @Art

    Latin America with about 8% of the world’s population accounts for 30% of the world’s homicides. What makes Latin Americans so prone to violence?
     
    Genetics - the Inca and Mayan Indians were some very bloody bastards – they practiced cruel human sacrifice. This cruelty is exciting activity – the propensity to excitement is genetically transferable.

    A small percentage of South America males with Indian blood in them can be very cruel.

    But Latin America already was less criminal, is not just the ”in-the-genes”. It’s a horrible combination of usually long term bad governments and yes, disposition to the criminality. I think criminality is lower in North Korea even with that shit ”government”.

    I also think that latin america have suffered with other problems and exactly with two connected problems:

    - urban swelling caused by uncontrolled rural exodus

    - demographic and dysgenic explosion, increasing the %/proportion of young and dysfunctional people, without jobs for all.

    the spectrum of the criminal way of life become large when the government is extremely incompetent, bad , corrupted

    the demographic explosition in latin america was not followed by increasing in the well distributed wealth

    bad environments inflame the bad that we have and we know that some people simply born more evil, other people born borderline to become criminal and also we have a even larger spectrum of corruptible people.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  51. @SXIOPO
    The fundamental premise of this article is flawed: the IQ of black (and white) children in Philadelphia public school has, in fact, decreased since the 1930s. Why? The answer is a combination of laws and demographics.

    First, in the '30s, the idea of children having an absolute right to education without regard to their behavior or educability hadn't yet taken root in our legal system. Public schools were free to expel students with low IQs or behavior problems, and they did so regularly. Does anyone remember the scene in Forrest Gump where Forrest's principal wanted to kick him out because he scored too low on an IQ test? That was an accurate reflection of the times, and there was nothing uncommon or illegal about it. Private schools are still allowed to do that, which explains most of the difference in outcomes.

    Second, most major cities have experienced a great deal of 'white flight' since the '3os, with Philadelphia being particularly hard-hit. Despite the name, there were plenty of above-average-IQ blacks who left the city for the same reasons as their white counterparts, while lower-IQ blacks were more likely to remain.

    Third, Williams's description makes it sound like public schools were perfectly fine in Philadelphia in the 1930s, and I'm happy to take his word for it. If true, that means most parents would have no incentive to incur the additional expense of enrolling their children in private schools. However, that's not the case today: the vast majority of Philly's public schools are abysmal, and the only parents who allow their children to remain in them are those who can't afford better and/or simply don't care. The IQ and behavior of their children are what you would expect for a population that's selected for low income.

    This is an excellent point and one that Williams seldom, if ever, ever has mentioned: Demographics. In 1930, Philadelphia’s population stood around 1,950,000 with about 219k of them African-Americans. In other words, Philadelphia’s total black population in 1930′s was about 11%. Today, Philadelphia’s black population is about 45%, roughly the same as the white population. If most of the 11% of blacks residing in Philadelphia during the 1930′s was indeed well behaved then that is welcome news indeed. Although, even during antebellum days the freed blacks in Philadelphia had crime rates equivalent to the white population (and they were a much lower percentage of the total population during the 19th century). Therefore it is reasonable to assume that perhaps 1930′s blacks in Philadelphia did better in school overall then they currently tend to do in 2016, that doesn’t negate the fact that the same social problems existed then as they do now within the black community. It just wasn’t near at the same current level. Prior to 1960′s black total out of wedlock births were far less than they are today but they still were much higher than the total white out of wedlock births prior to 1960′s. Such tends to be the case with crime and education. It was far better than it is now, but it was still massively higher than the total white levels of crime and educational dysfunction.

    All we have to do is ask Fred Reed a serious question: How come, if continental Africa was all that swell, that in roughly the thousands of millennia prior to contact with white civilizations they were unable to rise to the same level of the advanced white and asian societies that existed? In other words, when white Europeans first made contact with Sub-Saharan Africans on a massive level in say, about 1650-1700, the Sub-Saharan Africans were still living in roughly the stone age or just barely above it? And remember, Fred, you can’t blame white racism for Sub-Saharan Africa’s inabilities to form civilizations comparable to whites’ when there had been no prior direct contact with whites for all those thousands of years? They were left to themselves, and we tend to know that, left to themselves for all those centuries, they still hadn’t progressed much beyond the stone age. So “it’s all whitey’s fault!” won’t cut it.

    Just sayin’.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  52. KenH says:

    This article vexes me as previous articles Fred has written regarding the state of our negro inner cities and blacks in general lead me to conclude that he wrote most of them off as semi-savages unfit to live in first world nations. Now he’s trying to solve the riddle of chronic under achievement in the negro community and thinks there’s an answer that would be to their benefit.

    It shouldn’t be that hard to figure out. Blacks, negroes, whatever have indeed gotten stupider. Thanks to the welfare state, black welfare queens are siring large broods while I’ve noticed college educated blacks have small families (1-2 kids) or no children similar to college educated whites. Over time this has had a dysgenic and devolutionary effect which includes much lower average intelligence among blacks and abysmal test scores.

    Maybe the proverbial “get tough” approach would yield marginally positive results, but that would also carry charges of racism. It’s time to dispense with wishful thinking and religious dogma and embrace science and reality lest we usher in a new dark age which may already be upon us.

    Read More
    • Replies: @pink_point
    But those counterevolutionary dysgenic trends are rampant among whites too (and "whites" includes ethnic Jews), Latinos, it's a 21th century thing.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  53. @Jim
    Fred - You're always telling us how wonderful Mexico is and how well-educated and bookish Mexicans are. But Mexico has low PISA scores and for a country of 120 million has made little contribution to the sciences.

    Also of the 50 most violent cities in the world in 2015, 10 were in Mexico vs. 4 in the much larger US. The overwhelming number of the cities in the list were in Latin America. Not a single city on the Eurasian continent made the list. Why is Latin America so violent? Per capita GDP in Mexico is actually higher than in China (about 19k vs. 15k) but Mexican levels of violence are unheard of in China. Per capita income in India is about 7k but no city in that huge subcontinent of about a billion people was on the list.

    Latin America with about 8% of the world's population accounts for 30% of the world's homicides. What makes Latin Americans so prone to violence?

    Indeed,

    Fred Reed, for admirable that his rhetoric skills are, and hardly-dubitable his intentions, falls short of the expectations of objectivity the rest of his writing elicits as soon as he touches matters related to his choices of life — which include his elected place of residence, but not only that. (To the wise, few words).

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  54. @KenH
    This article vexes me as previous articles Fred has written regarding the state of our negro inner cities and blacks in general lead me to conclude that he wrote most of them off as semi-savages unfit to live in first world nations. Now he's trying to solve the riddle of chronic under achievement in the negro community and thinks there's an answer that would be to their benefit.

    It shouldn't be that hard to figure out. Blacks, negroes, whatever have indeed gotten stupider. Thanks to the welfare state, black welfare queens are siring large broods while I've noticed college educated blacks have small families (1-2 kids) or no children similar to college educated whites. Over time this has had a dysgenic and devolutionary effect which includes much lower average intelligence among blacks and abysmal test scores.

    Maybe the proverbial "get tough" approach would yield marginally positive results, but that would also carry charges of racism. It's time to dispense with wishful thinking and religious dogma and embrace science and reality lest we usher in a new dark age which may already be upon us.

    But those counterevolutionary dysgenic trends are rampant among whites too (and “whites” includes ethnic Jews), Latinos, it’s a 21th century thing.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  55. joe webb says:

    I confess…to being unable to read fred the race traitor, but I did skim it. I did not see the term “cherry picking.” Nor did I see remarked that Catholic schools cost money, and that only black parents with some extra money and ambition would be buying some Catholic education.

    Thus, those black kids enrolled in Catholic schools would have been selected in cherry pick fashion. and also would have gotten a good whupping if hey were wasting Dad’s money.

    If there was a Dad in the picture, that too means that a smarter black Dad was sticking around to raise his kids.

    Fred in a total fuck-up loser and race traitor. He overlooks all the work in the field, starting with The Bell Curve which surveyed most of the programs for black uplift and found that only IQ predicted results, good and bad.

    ugh Fred, Joe Webb

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  56. @Mark F.
    UC-Berkeley, where affirmative action is banned, only has about 3% black students, mostly female.

    [Concealing one's identity with multiple handles is improper behavior; use a single handle or just Anonymous or Anon.]

    That’s like to say, nature’s vanity’s bitch.

    Come on. Why can’t anybody see that different people can’t live together in a democratic country that’s not based on oppression?

    They aren’t going to be equal anyway, and, actually, the less “oppression” is there, the worse the less able will feel — with all what that means in terms of mental health, and politics (where there is a certain kind of hurtful truths, there will be anger; where anger is, politicians and other demagogues eager to exploit it will be too).

    There are at least 4 well-defined ethnic groups with 4 different, well different indeed, levels of mean intelligence in the USA.
    It’s not so hard to figure why a very large majority of who died in the Twin Towers where Jews, is it?
    Or why Asians are going to nearly monopolyze Caltech, where they have decided to keep being a real technical university.

    Difference will always mean envy, when humans are involved. (And, as some of us can perhaps see, abuse of power on the part of the most skilled.)

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  57. utu says:

    “a very large majority of who died in the Twin Towers where Jews” – Is this a fact? No more than 15%. On the other hand only 5 Israelis died. Trinidad and Tobago lost 3 time more citizen in Twin Towers than Israel. http://brilliantmaps.com/9-11-victims/

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  58. (Mexican literacy, CIA FactBook: 95%. American literacy, US Department of Education: 86%) Something is wrong somewhere.

    It is far easier to learn how to read and write Spanish. Unlike English, Spanish is spelled exactly the way it sounds. Spanish spelling bees don’t really exist because the words are too easy to spell. Also, most immigrants to Mexico are either literate (like the Slim family and yourself) or speak Spanish. US immigrants are more “diverse”.

    Before the Revolution the literacy rate in Cuba was 60-76%. In January 1961 Cuba embarked on a literacy campaign where workers went to the countryside and taught people to read in three months. By December 1961 the literacy rate was 96%. Cuba today is 99.8% literate.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    Anybody who believes that "99.8% literate" Castro propaganda is innumerate.

    If you are capable of it, spend a second thinking about this. Are there no dyslexics Cubans? None with IQs so low as to preclude literacy? None so congenitally deformed as to be incapable of learning to read?
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  59. In the early 80s Marva Collins was receiving praise for educating black children. Of course her students were also well-behaved middle-class children from good families that could afford the tuition. Today it is common knowledge that within each race academic achievement correlates with family income. Apparently in 1981 no one had figured that out.

    Charter schools have copied the Collins and Catholic model with uniforms and strict discipline. Regular public school use magnet programs to lure middle-class families. The DC Catholic school enrollment that was 12,000 in 1981, was 6000 in 2014. Marva Collins closed the last of her two schools in 2008 due to low enrollment. Her daughter, who had been running the school, committed suicide shortly afterwards.

    http://adw.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Annual-Data-Book-2013-2014.pdf

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  60. globy says:
    @mtn cur
    See Jesse Stuarts "The Thread That Runs So True," for a snapshot of education in the Ky Cumberlands in the twenties and thirties.

    mtn cur says:
    See Jesse Stuarts “The Thread That Runs So True,” for a snapshot of education in the Ky Cumberlands in the twenties and thirties.

    Thank you for the recommendation, it looks like an interesting book from the reviews… A man teaching from age seventeen in a one room rural schoolhouse exemplifies true education – inspiring the individual to learn on their own, rather than relying on rote memorization as taught in modern educational systems.

    Jesse Stuart, in the 1920′s rural schoolhouse, was a true educator in that he had control over his class and he had to design and organize how he presented his subjects. Today, specific educational subjects are packaged and sold to public school districts by educational publishing houses. Just like training in the military, every student gets the same lecture, the same course materials, and even the same joke, all prepackaged in the teacher’s “curriculum guide” to be delivered over and over again, replete with CD-Rom powerpoints for the class to follow. The teacher, even if they have any good sense or ability, must conform to the curriculum guide if they want to earn a check. Any deviation is considered heresy of modern educational method.

    By way of return for the book suggestion, I might suggest educator John Gatto’s famously ignored book, “The Underground History of American Education” likely available online for a download. Gatto describes the bureaucratic hierarchy of the educational monolith in great detail and the turgid, regimented, mentally dead classrooms; and above all the shaming and destruction of children’s native curiosity and imagination. If you want to know why US schools don’t work and children don’t get an education, take a look at Gatto’s book.

    Read More
    • Replies: @mtn cur
    Thanks for the tip. I revise and extend my remark to the effect that one size fits all does not work for school children any better than for bra sizes.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  61. Mexican literacy 95%?? Depends on the meanings of literacy and Mexican I’d say. I’ve visited Mexico (Guadalajara and Leon, Guanajuato) on a one week business trip (leather goods sourcing) and yes, the execs, trade show people, bankers and even hotel front desk help were quite literate. The artesans in their patio “talleres”– well, arguably “más o menos”. Ditto for cab drivers.

    But in another life stateside as a bilingual consultant for various gov’t agencies dealing with our new fangled diversity, I’d say widespread functional illiteracy among the diaspora is the order of the day.

    There simply is no way that Mexico proper or Mexico diaspora has a 95% literacy rate when the overwhelming majority were “educated” by Esther Gordillo.

    As to Gringo 86% literacy per DOE, I’d say that’s a lot closer to reality (it may be worse) than what the CIA Fact Book reports. Governments have a way of exaggerating.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  62. iffen says:
    @Talha
    Hey mtncur,

    No problem, any good character in me should rightly be attributed to the efforts and prayers of my parents and teachers.

    As far as the people of the Bible-belt, unfortunately they are being duped and this is by design. Wars need hostility to keep them going and there is a cottage industry of self-proclaimed experts, fake ex-Muslims, ignorant preachers, etc. that are making money hand-over-fist by whipping up this frenzy. I remember similar sentiments during the Cold-War when I was growing up in California, we thought Russians were beasts, barely human. We drank the Hollywood koolaid. For instance, Fox has invited - multiple times - people like Anjem Choudary and called him 'Imam' in their interviews even though he has zero qualifications to speak on the subject of Islamic law, give fatwas, etc. But, hopefully, cooler heads will prevail; the Southern folks are known for their cordial manners and hospitality, a very laudable set of traits that I hope God preserves in them from the vicissitudes of the times.

    May God preserve and honor you (and your well-behaved dogs!).

    they are being duped and this is by design.

    So what kind of duping goes on without design?

    I see that you have a kindred spirit in mtn cur.

    The left side of the curve does not fail within its capabilities, whether in Iraq or Appalachia. If there is failure, it is because the right side is failing to achieve within its capabilities. You two should take that to heart and quite whining about the peasants mucking up the place and concentrate on how your above the curve fellow-travelers are letting the place fall to shit.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey iffen,


    So what kind of duping goes on without design?
     
    Good point - always keeping me concise eh?

    Just to be clear, I don't agree with this demarcation of IQ being the determinant in the value of people - I have seen plenty of sincere people of low intelligence and plenty of high IQ people that I would assume are sociopaths. It seems though, that the right side (of the curve) is split into two camps; one which would like to bring sanity back into the discourse and the other who is quite fine "letting the place fall to s*" and making money hand-over-fist all the way down and have rigged the system in their favor.

    Totally agree with you, at least on the case of the Muslim leadership, there has been a failure to make things more clear to the masses that are vulnerable to extremist messages. This is a poignant example of just how deep this crisis of authority is getting to the Muslim world:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77QODDURVMg

    Peace.
    , @mtn cur
    Even handedness that dilutes the purity of myopic points of view hardly qualifies as whining. The issue of intentionality in idiots and sociopaths is not of great interest to any but shrinks, since their playing others for suckers is often instinctive and anything but conscious or they would not risk an ax handle shampoo or worse when folks get wise to them.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  63. Talha says:
    @iffen
    they are being duped and this is by design.

    So what kind of duping goes on without design?

    I see that you have a kindred spirit in mtn cur.

    The left side of the curve does not fail within its capabilities, whether in Iraq or Appalachia. If there is failure, it is because the right side is failing to achieve within its capabilities. You two should take that to heart and quite whining about the peasants mucking up the place and concentrate on how your above the curve fellow-travelers are letting the place fall to shit.

    Hey iffen,

    So what kind of duping goes on without design?

    Good point – always keeping me concise eh?

    Just to be clear, I don’t agree with this demarcation of IQ being the determinant in the value of people – I have seen plenty of sincere people of low intelligence and plenty of high IQ people that I would assume are sociopaths. It seems though, that the right side (of the curve) is split into two camps; one which would like to bring sanity back into the discourse and the other who is quite fine “letting the place fall to s*” and making money hand-over-fist all the way down and have rigged the system in their favor.

    Totally agree with you, at least on the case of the Muslim leadership, there has been a failure to make things more clear to the masses that are vulnerable to extremist messages. This is a poignant example of just how deep this crisis of authority is getting to the Muslim world:

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Of course, its all the fault of extremists who have perverted the true and pure Islam. Thank you for clarifying this point. Pretty much everyone knows that Orthodox Islam is at its core very peaceful, tolerant of minorities, and progressive in outlook in its treatment of women.

    "Bolshevism combines the characteristics of the French Revolution with those of the rise of Islam… Those who accept Bolshevism become impervious to scientific evidence, and commit intellectual suicide. Even if all the doctrines of Bolshevism were true, this would still be the case, since no unbiased examination of them is tolerated…Among religions, Bolshevism is to be reckoned with Mohammedanism rather than with Christianity and Buddhism. Christianity and Buddhism are primarily personal religions, with mystical doctrines and a love of contemplation. Mohammedanism and Bolshevism are practical, social, unspiritual, concerned to win the empire of the world." Bertrand Russell

    Again, thank you so very much for clarifying about how peaceful Islam has (as well as historically) has been.

    Have a nice day.
    , @iffen
    Just to be clear, I don’t agree with this demarcation of IQ being the determinant in the value of people –

    I don’t either. I assume that comment was directed at the milieu of the article and comment thread rather than at me.

    … the right side (of the curve) is split into two camps; one which would like to bring sanity back into the discourse and the other who is quite fine “letting the place fall to s*” and making money hand-over-fist all the way down and have rigged the system in their favor.

    Absolutely, and smarter people than me have pointed out that the fraction of the selfish seems to have been increasing and is no longer counterbalanced in numbers by the “virtuous”.

    … there has been a failure to make things more clear to the masses that are vulnerable to extremist messages.

    As far as the people of the Bible-belt, unfortunately they are being duped and this is by design.

    Here is my complaint to you.

    You point out that many Muslims are being misled by what “I” would call false teaching. These are Muslims in Muslim countries who are descendants of Muslims for many, many generations. How many millions are mis-guided? OTOH you seem to expect my Bible-belt peeps to be able to distinguish between the “righteous” and “mis-guided” Muslims when millions of Muslims around the world are demonstrably unable to do so themselves. I do not excuse their religious intolerance, but I do see the origin of some of their complaints. For example, the speaker in the clip referenced going to the White House. Would this speaker be able to deliver this lecture in Tehran? I know that you are appreciative of our liberal democratic values and regret that so much of the Muslim world is anti-thetical to these values.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  64. @Triumph104

    (Mexican literacy, CIA FactBook: 95%. American literacy, US Department of Education: 86%) Something is wrong somewhere.
     
    It is far easier to learn how to read and write Spanish. Unlike English, Spanish is spelled exactly the way it sounds. Spanish spelling bees don't really exist because the words are too easy to spell. Also, most immigrants to Mexico are either literate (like the Slim family and yourself) or speak Spanish. US immigrants are more "diverse".


    Before the Revolution the literacy rate in Cuba was 60-76%. In January 1961 Cuba embarked on a literacy campaign where workers went to the countryside and taught people to read in three months. By December 1961 the literacy rate was 96%. Cuba today is 99.8% literate.

    Anybody who believes that “99.8% literate” Castro propaganda is innumerate.

    If you are capable of it, spend a second thinking about this. Are there no dyslexics Cubans? None with IQs so low as to preclude literacy? None so congenitally deformed as to be incapable of learning to read?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Triumph104
    Literacy rates only take into account people who were actually capable of learning to read, not the profoundly disabled. It is similar to US unemployment rates only reflecting people who are actually looking for a job. The profoundly disabled don't look for work so they aren't included in the unemployment figures.

    Dyslexia does not mean illiterate. Dyslexics have trouble reading but are perfectly capable of reading with proper education.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  65. KenH says:

    Another important point is that educational achievement is generally discouraged in the black community since that is “selling out”, “acting white” and is liable to get a person labeled with the pejorative “Uncle Tom”. At the end of the day only blacks can help and save blacks and the prospects of that ever happening look pretty grim. There is a great deal of peer pressure to be a gangsta, thug and criminal since breaking the white man’s laws is a badge of honor.

    After all the hate, violence and disrespect whites have had to endure post 1965 including the disruption of their lives, workplaces and communities by blacks, I don’t care whether they get their act together or not since even the educated blacks harbor a degree of animus towards white people.

    Racial integration has been an epic failure.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ace
    In the 1980s the WSJ had a great story about a highly, highly motivated black high school student in the DC schools who desperately wanted to get into an MIT summer program. He went straight home each day and hit the books. It appears he was the only one in the entire school and he definitely got pressured by his peers with that "thinking white" nonsense. I'm sure the principal was unaware of such attitudes.

    Amen on the animus and epic failure points.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  66. KenH says:

    If Mexico’s literacy rate is 95% then there’s obviously no correlation between a nation’s literacy rate and first world status. If we deported all the illegal aliens back to Mexico the 95% figure would plummet since the illegals don’t represent their best and brightest and Mexico has been busily disgorging its underclass and unsavory elements to the USA which should be considered an act of war.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  67. Walter Williams was born in 1936. He would have attended school in the 40s and early 50s. Bill Cosby was a childhood friend who scored 500 out of 1600 on the SAT and repeated the 10th grade three times before dropping out of school. Cosby earned his college degrees based on work experience.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Cosby's degree is in physical education (e.g. basically gym class). Where exactly does Williams state that he knew Cosby growing up in Philadelphia? He seldom has ever stated that he knew him; much less that they were close childhood friends, just that they were born around the same time in Philadelphia and that they both attended various public schools in Germantown area.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  68. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Truth
    As a general rule; I would say that gay white guys do a poor job of imitating straight black guys.

    You do a good impression of a straight black one, my down low brother.

    I always knew I recognized you from somewhere and here it is:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9ROOi5xagxg

    Good meeting in line Oswald Bates!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    Totally original.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  69. @Jus' Sayin'...
    Anybody who believes that "99.8% literate" Castro propaganda is innumerate.

    If you are capable of it, spend a second thinking about this. Are there no dyslexics Cubans? None with IQs so low as to preclude literacy? None so congenitally deformed as to be incapable of learning to read?

    Literacy rates only take into account people who were actually capable of learning to read, not the profoundly disabled. It is similar to US unemployment rates only reflecting people who are actually looking for a job. The profoundly disabled don’t look for work so they aren’t included in the unemployment figures.

    Dyslexia does not mean illiterate. Dyslexics have trouble reading but are perfectly capable of reading with proper education.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  70. @Triumph104
    Walter Williams was born in 1936. He would have attended school in the 40s and early 50s. Bill Cosby was a childhood friend who scored 500 out of 1600 on the SAT and repeated the 10th grade three times before dropping out of school. Cosby earned his college degrees based on work experience.

    Cosby’s degree is in physical education (e.g. basically gym class). Where exactly does Williams state that he knew Cosby growing up in Philadelphia? He seldom has ever stated that he knew him; much less that they were close childhood friends, just that they were born around the same time in Philadelphia and that they both attended various public schools in Germantown area.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  71. @Talha
    Hey iffen,


    So what kind of duping goes on without design?
     
    Good point - always keeping me concise eh?

    Just to be clear, I don't agree with this demarcation of IQ being the determinant in the value of people - I have seen plenty of sincere people of low intelligence and plenty of high IQ people that I would assume are sociopaths. It seems though, that the right side (of the curve) is split into two camps; one which would like to bring sanity back into the discourse and the other who is quite fine "letting the place fall to s*" and making money hand-over-fist all the way down and have rigged the system in their favor.

    Totally agree with you, at least on the case of the Muslim leadership, there has been a failure to make things more clear to the masses that are vulnerable to extremist messages. This is a poignant example of just how deep this crisis of authority is getting to the Muslim world:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77QODDURVMg

    Peace.

    Of course, its all the fault of extremists who have perverted the true and pure Islam. Thank you for clarifying this point. Pretty much everyone knows that Orthodox Islam is at its core very peaceful, tolerant of minorities, and progressive in outlook in its treatment of women.

    “Bolshevism combines the characteristics of the French Revolution with those of the rise of Islam… Those who accept Bolshevism become impervious to scientific evidence, and commit intellectual suicide. Even if all the doctrines of Bolshevism were true, this would still be the case, since no unbiased examination of them is tolerated…Among religions, Bolshevism is to be reckoned with Mohammedanism rather than with Christianity and Buddhism. Christianity and Buddhism are primarily personal religions, with mystical doctrines and a love of contemplation. Mohammedanism and Bolshevism are practical, social, unspiritual, concerned to win the empire of the world.” Bertrand Russell

    Again, thank you so very much for clarifying about how peaceful Islam has (as well as historically) has been.

    Have a nice day.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Zato-Ichi,

    I love that handle - Japanese cinema fan, I take it? The cinema of 1950s/1960s Japan is my favorite - bar-none.

    You're putting words in my mouth. Peruse my posts if you think I am presenting a hippy version of Islam. I have too much respect for the readers of UNZ to peddle such nonsense.

    Speaking of nonsense...as far as Mr. Russell, the fact that he could put Islam at par with Bolshevism with being 'unspiritual' is evidence enough that he was quite ignorant of the tremendous Sufi tradition that spans centuries and every land that Islam exists in - something sagacious men like Emerson could appreciate (http://harpers.org/blog/2009/06/emersons-saadi/). His ignorance (willful perhaps) is beneath response - everyone is entitled to their opinions.

    Peace.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  72. Talha says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Of course, its all the fault of extremists who have perverted the true and pure Islam. Thank you for clarifying this point. Pretty much everyone knows that Orthodox Islam is at its core very peaceful, tolerant of minorities, and progressive in outlook in its treatment of women.

    "Bolshevism combines the characteristics of the French Revolution with those of the rise of Islam… Those who accept Bolshevism become impervious to scientific evidence, and commit intellectual suicide. Even if all the doctrines of Bolshevism were true, this would still be the case, since no unbiased examination of them is tolerated…Among religions, Bolshevism is to be reckoned with Mohammedanism rather than with Christianity and Buddhism. Christianity and Buddhism are primarily personal religions, with mystical doctrines and a love of contemplation. Mohammedanism and Bolshevism are practical, social, unspiritual, concerned to win the empire of the world." Bertrand Russell

    Again, thank you so very much for clarifying about how peaceful Islam has (as well as historically) has been.

    Have a nice day.

    Hey Zato-Ichi,

    I love that handle – Japanese cinema fan, I take it? The cinema of 1950s/1960s Japan is my favorite – bar-none.

    You’re putting words in my mouth. Peruse my posts if you think I am presenting a hippy version of Islam. I have too much respect for the readers of UNZ to peddle such nonsense.

    Speaking of nonsense…as far as Mr. Russell, the fact that he could put Islam at par with Bolshevism with being ‘unspiritual’ is evidence enough that he was quite ignorant of the tremendous Sufi tradition that spans centuries and every land that Islam exists in – something sagacious men like Emerson could appreciate (http://harpers.org/blog/2009/06/emersons-saadi/). His ignorance (willful perhaps) is beneath response – everyone is entitled to their opinions.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Now you are being quite disingenuous as well as quite disrespectful. Orthodox Islam regards Sufism, as well as the B'hai's as heretical and apostates. In point of fact both groups have suffered harsh persecutions at the hands of the Sunnis and the Shi'ites. I am not putting words in anyone's mouth any more than one is attempting to put thoughts and concepts into a worldwide faith that its Orthodox strain has never taught much less promoted as the true way of following the pure faith. That is by definition disingenuous.

    Also, no legitimate faith system allows its aberrations or heretical strains to define itself. The fact that you appear to be pushing that what the vast majority of world Islam considered and continues to consider to be heretical (e.g. Sufism, Ba'hais, and other aberrant distortions of their pure faith) and thus must be punished, demonstrates a willful ignorance or a spirit of Kuum ba yah-ism, where all religions peacefully coexist for all time together while seated around the piano playing John Lennon's Imagine (as they did post-Paris attacks last November).

    That's not how it works. If people want to know about Orthodox Islam, they would be best served to study the Koran, Hadith, other holy writings from the original start of the faith as well as go to legitimate representatives of that faith, namely, ask reputable imams from either the Sunni or the Shi'ite tradition. As roughly 85% of world wide Muslims are Sunni, with the rest Shi'ite, that would tend to demonstrate that these two strains constitute Orthodox (and thus legitimate) Islam. Orthodox Islam doesn't allow what it considers to be heretical strains to define the faith, any more than other faiths allow its heretical aberrations to define itself.

    Bertrand Russell is widely regarded as one of the greatest mathematicians, logicians as well as a strong philosopher of his own era. Sorry if those ignorant of the Western tradition cannot recognize that. His observations were quite accurate and on target for the time. It is a shame that National Socialism had not taken firm hold in Germany at the time or otherwise perhaps he would have included National Socialism when defining Islam.

    It is a sad but unfortunate fact that war is the natural state of man, so it has always been and so it shall always be.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  73. Truth says:
    @Anon
    You do a good impression of a straight black one, my down low brother.

    I always knew I recognized you from somewhere and here it is:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9ROOi5xagxg

    Good meeting in line Oswald Bates!

    Totally original.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  74. @Talha
    Hey Zato-Ichi,

    I love that handle - Japanese cinema fan, I take it? The cinema of 1950s/1960s Japan is my favorite - bar-none.

    You're putting words in my mouth. Peruse my posts if you think I am presenting a hippy version of Islam. I have too much respect for the readers of UNZ to peddle such nonsense.

    Speaking of nonsense...as far as Mr. Russell, the fact that he could put Islam at par with Bolshevism with being 'unspiritual' is evidence enough that he was quite ignorant of the tremendous Sufi tradition that spans centuries and every land that Islam exists in - something sagacious men like Emerson could appreciate (http://harpers.org/blog/2009/06/emersons-saadi/). His ignorance (willful perhaps) is beneath response - everyone is entitled to their opinions.

    Peace.

    Now you are being quite disingenuous as well as quite disrespectful. Orthodox Islam regards Sufism, as well as the B’hai’s as heretical and apostates. In point of fact both groups have suffered harsh persecutions at the hands of the Sunnis and the Shi’ites. I am not putting words in anyone’s mouth any more than one is attempting to put thoughts and concepts into a worldwide faith that its Orthodox strain has never taught much less promoted as the true way of following the pure faith. That is by definition disingenuous.

    Also, no legitimate faith system allows its aberrations or heretical strains to define itself. The fact that you appear to be pushing that what the vast majority of world Islam considered and continues to consider to be heretical (e.g. Sufism, Ba’hais, and other aberrant distortions of their pure faith) and thus must be punished, demonstrates a willful ignorance or a spirit of Kuum ba yah-ism, where all religions peacefully coexist for all time together while seated around the piano playing John Lennon’s Imagine (as they did post-Paris attacks last November).

    That’s not how it works. If people want to know about Orthodox Islam, they would be best served to study the Koran, Hadith, other holy writings from the original start of the faith as well as go to legitimate representatives of that faith, namely, ask reputable imams from either the Sunni or the Shi’ite tradition. As roughly 85% of world wide Muslims are Sunni, with the rest Shi’ite, that would tend to demonstrate that these two strains constitute Orthodox (and thus legitimate) Islam. Orthodox Islam doesn’t allow what it considers to be heretical strains to define the faith, any more than other faiths allow its heretical aberrations to define itself.

    Bertrand Russell is widely regarded as one of the greatest mathematicians, logicians as well as a strong philosopher of his own era. Sorry if those ignorant of the Western tradition cannot recognize that. His observations were quite accurate and on target for the time. It is a shame that National Socialism had not taken firm hold in Germany at the time or otherwise perhaps he would have included National Socialism when defining Islam.

    It is a sad but unfortunate fact that war is the natural state of man, so it has always been and so it shall always be.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth

    Now you are being quite disingenuous as well as quite disrespectful. Orthodox Islam regards Sufism, as well as the B’hai’s as heretical and apostates.
     
    There is not freestanding group called "Sufi". Sufi Muslims are either Shi'a or Sunni almost always. There are other fringe Muslim groups by the way, the nation of Oman has its own Muslim tradition.
    , @Talha
    Hey Zato-Ichi,

    I've been down this road before with others...so here goes...

    Orthodox Islam regards Sufism, as well as the B’hai’s as heretical and apostates
     
    B'hais aren't apostates - they are not Muslim. Apostasy is an action - you must be Muslim in the first place too commit it, maybe their first generation committed it, subsequent people are simply born into a non-Muslim faith. Sufism is heretical? In toto? Says who - the Wahhabis? Sorry, but Orthodox Sunni Islam was doing just fine for the 12 centuries before they came on the map. I suggest a reading into men like Imams Ghazali, Sirhindi, Ibn Ata Illah (may God raise their ranks) to broaden one's knowledge on the subject.

    Also, no legitimate faith system allows its aberrations or heretical strains to define itself.
     
    Correct, and yet you are defining Islam though a Wahabbi/Salafist lens...those being aberrations from the normative voice for over 13 centuries.

    The fact that you appear to be pushing that what the vast majority of world Islam considered and continues to consider to be heretical
     
    The fact that you assume the vast majority of the Muslim world (including its scholarship at the top levels) considered and considers Sufism to be heretical bespeaks of a lack of knowledge on the subject matter. Please see my above suggestion.

    namely, ask reputable imams from either the Sunni or the Shi’ite tradition
     
    You mean like the current and former Grand Mufti of Pakistan who happen to be Sufis? Or the former Grand Mufti of al-Azhar, who was likewise? Or the last Grand Mufti of Mecca and Madinah during the Ottoman times?

    Orthodox Islam doesn’t allow what it considers to be heretical strains to define the faith
     
    Correct, that is the lexical meaning of 'orthodox' is it not?

    As far as Mr. Russell, I'm not ignorant of who he was; and I indeed laud his efforts to have a world rid of nuclear weapons. You forgot to mention historian. I'm simply stating that I consider his opinion to be lower than men like Thoreau or Emerson on this subject. They having actually read the works of the Persian Sufis and referenced them in their works.

    What is interesting is what you quoted from him about Islam; that it is "practical, social"... where I come from, those are generally not pejoratives - features, not bugs. Perhaps a religion stands higher in his regard if it is impractical and anti-social?

    But as far as him calling it as "unspiritual" as Communism; no, I stand by my statement. If he disregarded Sufism in his calculation, he was shockingly ignorant of it, especially when making claims to be a philosopher. How can one brush off the contributions to metaphysics of the entire Persian culture?

    A modest prediction; centuries down the road, Russell's name will be forgotten other than as footnotes in academic works and thesis arguments. The poetry and letters of men like Attar, Rumi, Ibn Arabi, Sirhindi, Jami', etc. (may God elevate their ranks) will continue to inspire hearts and their graves will continue to be visited.

    Peace.
    , @Talha
    And, for the record, neither did I start this conversation with overt sarcasm nor quote from a person comparing my faith, glibly, to Communism. I'll leave it to others to determine whether the charge of being disrespectful is well-founded.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  75. mad1 says:
    @Talha

    What makes Latin Americans so prone to violence?
     
    I would assume part of it are market forces involved in the multi-billion dollar drug trade and the nature of that business. A corollary; what makes Americans so prone to using drugs and simultaneously making them illegal? We can't seriously, as a society, not take some responsibility in our bi-polar approach to the War-on-Drugs, can we?

    Peace.

    El Paso should be a required destination for all white Americans for a lesson in how the Majority in our “Diversity” culture should treat Minorities,

    El Paso Ranked No. 1 Safest City in America for Fourth Year

    El Paso is 80% Hispanic

    For the record I am a product of the strong merging of Mexican and German culture in Texas
    for 150 years now (my family arrived in 1842)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Good stuff! You have placed in my heart a desire to visit El Paso if I am ever in that neighborhood.

    May God preserve that city and it inhabitants and grant them prosperity.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  76. Truth says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Now you are being quite disingenuous as well as quite disrespectful. Orthodox Islam regards Sufism, as well as the B'hai's as heretical and apostates. In point of fact both groups have suffered harsh persecutions at the hands of the Sunnis and the Shi'ites. I am not putting words in anyone's mouth any more than one is attempting to put thoughts and concepts into a worldwide faith that its Orthodox strain has never taught much less promoted as the true way of following the pure faith. That is by definition disingenuous.

    Also, no legitimate faith system allows its aberrations or heretical strains to define itself. The fact that you appear to be pushing that what the vast majority of world Islam considered and continues to consider to be heretical (e.g. Sufism, Ba'hais, and other aberrant distortions of their pure faith) and thus must be punished, demonstrates a willful ignorance or a spirit of Kuum ba yah-ism, where all religions peacefully coexist for all time together while seated around the piano playing John Lennon's Imagine (as they did post-Paris attacks last November).

    That's not how it works. If people want to know about Orthodox Islam, they would be best served to study the Koran, Hadith, other holy writings from the original start of the faith as well as go to legitimate representatives of that faith, namely, ask reputable imams from either the Sunni or the Shi'ite tradition. As roughly 85% of world wide Muslims are Sunni, with the rest Shi'ite, that would tend to demonstrate that these two strains constitute Orthodox (and thus legitimate) Islam. Orthodox Islam doesn't allow what it considers to be heretical strains to define the faith, any more than other faiths allow its heretical aberrations to define itself.

    Bertrand Russell is widely regarded as one of the greatest mathematicians, logicians as well as a strong philosopher of his own era. Sorry if those ignorant of the Western tradition cannot recognize that. His observations were quite accurate and on target for the time. It is a shame that National Socialism had not taken firm hold in Germany at the time or otherwise perhaps he would have included National Socialism when defining Islam.

    It is a sad but unfortunate fact that war is the natural state of man, so it has always been and so it shall always be.

    Now you are being quite disingenuous as well as quite disrespectful. Orthodox Islam regards Sufism, as well as the B’hai’s as heretical and apostates.

    There is not freestanding group called “Sufi”. Sufi Muslims are either Shi’a or Sunni almost always. There are other fringe Muslim groups by the way, the nation of Oman has its own Muslim tradition.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Light,

    This is true, the Ibadi are considered heterodox by the Sunni majority, but they are well within the 'big tent', see the Amman Message:
    http://ammanmessage.com/

    Peace.
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    That is the case, but the larger point, namely, that there is a pacifistic, Quaker-like strain that has directly influenced Orthodox Islam since the beginning is not the case.

    And fringe groups have always been dealt accordingly by the orthodox.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  77. Talha says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Now you are being quite disingenuous as well as quite disrespectful. Orthodox Islam regards Sufism, as well as the B'hai's as heretical and apostates. In point of fact both groups have suffered harsh persecutions at the hands of the Sunnis and the Shi'ites. I am not putting words in anyone's mouth any more than one is attempting to put thoughts and concepts into a worldwide faith that its Orthodox strain has never taught much less promoted as the true way of following the pure faith. That is by definition disingenuous.

    Also, no legitimate faith system allows its aberrations or heretical strains to define itself. The fact that you appear to be pushing that what the vast majority of world Islam considered and continues to consider to be heretical (e.g. Sufism, Ba'hais, and other aberrant distortions of their pure faith) and thus must be punished, demonstrates a willful ignorance or a spirit of Kuum ba yah-ism, where all religions peacefully coexist for all time together while seated around the piano playing John Lennon's Imagine (as they did post-Paris attacks last November).

    That's not how it works. If people want to know about Orthodox Islam, they would be best served to study the Koran, Hadith, other holy writings from the original start of the faith as well as go to legitimate representatives of that faith, namely, ask reputable imams from either the Sunni or the Shi'ite tradition. As roughly 85% of world wide Muslims are Sunni, with the rest Shi'ite, that would tend to demonstrate that these two strains constitute Orthodox (and thus legitimate) Islam. Orthodox Islam doesn't allow what it considers to be heretical strains to define the faith, any more than other faiths allow its heretical aberrations to define itself.

    Bertrand Russell is widely regarded as one of the greatest mathematicians, logicians as well as a strong philosopher of his own era. Sorry if those ignorant of the Western tradition cannot recognize that. His observations were quite accurate and on target for the time. It is a shame that National Socialism had not taken firm hold in Germany at the time or otherwise perhaps he would have included National Socialism when defining Islam.

    It is a sad but unfortunate fact that war is the natural state of man, so it has always been and so it shall always be.

    Hey Zato-Ichi,

    I’ve been down this road before with others…so here goes…

    Orthodox Islam regards Sufism, as well as the B’hai’s as heretical and apostates

    B’hais aren’t apostates – they are not Muslim. Apostasy is an action – you must be Muslim in the first place too commit it, maybe their first generation committed it, subsequent people are simply born into a non-Muslim faith. Sufism is heretical? In toto? Says who – the Wahhabis? Sorry, but Orthodox Sunni Islam was doing just fine for the 12 centuries before they came on the map. I suggest a reading into men like Imams Ghazali, Sirhindi, Ibn Ata Illah (may God raise their ranks) to broaden one’s knowledge on the subject.

    Also, no legitimate faith system allows its aberrations or heretical strains to define itself.

    Correct, and yet you are defining Islam though a Wahabbi/Salafist lens…those being aberrations from the normative voice for over 13 centuries.

    The fact that you appear to be pushing that what the vast majority of world Islam considered and continues to consider to be heretical

    The fact that you assume the vast majority of the Muslim world (including its scholarship at the top levels) considered and considers Sufism to be heretical bespeaks of a lack of knowledge on the subject matter. Please see my above suggestion.

    namely, ask reputable imams from either the Sunni or the Shi’ite tradition

    You mean like the current and former Grand Mufti of Pakistan who happen to be Sufis? Or the former Grand Mufti of al-Azhar, who was likewise? Or the last Grand Mufti of Mecca and Madinah during the Ottoman times?

    Orthodox Islam doesn’t allow what it considers to be heretical strains to define the faith

    Correct, that is the lexical meaning of ‘orthodox’ is it not?

    As far as Mr. Russell, I’m not ignorant of who he was; and I indeed laud his efforts to have a world rid of nuclear weapons. You forgot to mention historian. I’m simply stating that I consider his opinion to be lower than men like Thoreau or Emerson on this subject. They having actually read the works of the Persian Sufis and referenced them in their works.

    What is interesting is what you quoted from him about Islam; that it is “practical, social”… where I come from, those are generally not pejoratives – features, not bugs. Perhaps a religion stands higher in his regard if it is impractical and anti-social?

    But as far as him calling it as “unspiritual” as Communism; no, I stand by my statement. If he disregarded Sufism in his calculation, he was shockingly ignorant of it, especially when making claims to be a philosopher. How can one brush off the contributions to metaphysics of the entire Persian culture?

    A modest prediction; centuries down the road, Russell’s name will be forgotten other than as footnotes in academic works and thesis arguments. The poetry and letters of men like Attar, Rumi, Ibn Arabi, Sirhindi, Jami’, etc. (may God elevate their ranks) will continue to inspire hearts and their graves will continue to be visited.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Re: Bahai's, that is a deception. Bahai'ism grew out of Islam in 19th century Iran and they suffered persecution at the hands of Islam.

    "yet you are defining Islam though a Wahabbi/Salafist lens…those being aberrations from the normative voice for over 13 centuries."

    No, I am looking at historical record of how official representatives of Islam behaved (e.g. conquest with the sword) or did you forget that important point. I am also observing that in point of fact, Wahabbism has a more direct historical line to Orthodox Islam itself than any kuum ba yahist Sufism singing round piano singing John Lennon's Imagine. It also appears wherever they tend to go in Western Europe, the Islamic communities at large lack a desire to assimilate to the host countries (e.g. Malmo Sweden is now the first world's rape capital, largely due to Muslims; Rotteram, England with the white slavery sex scandals; etc.) In other words, this mythical "all one needs is love and understanding", while it may indeed have a strong strain in various world faiths, it is not a part of orthodox Islam and its historical record of conquest amply demonstrates that.

    Bertrand Russell was many things; an excellent observer on various topics of the time, but an actual credentialed historian was not one of them.

    I would also suggest:

    Eclecticism in Islam, Arthur Jeffery

    The Quest of the Historical Muhammad, Arthur Jeffery

    Materials for the History of the Text of the Qur'an, Arthur Jeffery

    A Variant Text of the Fatiha, Arthur Jeffery

    The Orthography of the Samarqand Codex, Arthur Jeffery

    The Textual History of the Qur'an, Arthur Jeffery

    Muhammad and His Religion, Arthur Jeffery

    Sources of Islam, by William St. Clair Tisdall

    The Qur'an in Islam: An Inquiry into the Integrity of the Quran, William Goldsack

    And of course the indispensable Hugh Fitzgerald. Follow him on twitter and ask him a question as he welcomes all and any sincere questions. I must admit I think you would actually like to talk with Mr. Fitzgerald, he is such a charming person and always tends to answer questions to the fullest extent possible on all matters relating to Islam.

    Sura 2.191: “And kill them [Infidels] wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing…”

    My, my, that does not sound very Sufi or peaceful-like. Perhaps the prophet was in one of his rare non-Sufi moods during that quite stressful time.

    And yet, war does appear to be the natural state of mankind for most of its history. As it was, so it shall ever be.

    , @Ace
    Baha'is - and everyone - appear to be born Muslim according to this:

    http://islam101.com/dawah/newBorn.htm

    I don't know if the Musselmenschen math that out to mean that kids raised away from Islam are thus apostates but, given that they can start with a woman's being raped and somehow reach the idea that she's guilty of adultery, I'm betting on apostasy. Such is Islamic "logic."

    The notables you mention do suggest otherwise, I confess.

    Plus, I've read that Sufis are just as violent as the rest of them.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  78. Talha says:
    @mad1
    El Paso should be a required destination for all white Americans for a lesson in how the Majority in our "Diversity" culture should treat Minorities,

    El Paso Ranked No. 1 Safest City in America for Fourth Year

    El Paso is 80% Hispanic

    For the record I am a product of the strong merging of Mexican and German culture in Texas
    for 150 years now (my family arrived in 1842)

    Good stuff! You have placed in my heart a desire to visit El Paso if I am ever in that neighborhood.

    May God preserve that city and it inhabitants and grant them prosperity.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  79. Talha says:
    @Truth

    Now you are being quite disingenuous as well as quite disrespectful. Orthodox Islam regards Sufism, as well as the B’hai’s as heretical and apostates.
     
    There is not freestanding group called "Sufi". Sufi Muslims are either Shi'a or Sunni almost always. There are other fringe Muslim groups by the way, the nation of Oman has its own Muslim tradition.

    Hey Light,

    This is true, the Ibadi are considered heterodox by the Sunni majority, but they are well within the ‘big tent’, see the Amman Message:

    http://ammanmessage.com/

    Peace.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  80. Talha says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Now you are being quite disingenuous as well as quite disrespectful. Orthodox Islam regards Sufism, as well as the B'hai's as heretical and apostates. In point of fact both groups have suffered harsh persecutions at the hands of the Sunnis and the Shi'ites. I am not putting words in anyone's mouth any more than one is attempting to put thoughts and concepts into a worldwide faith that its Orthodox strain has never taught much less promoted as the true way of following the pure faith. That is by definition disingenuous.

    Also, no legitimate faith system allows its aberrations or heretical strains to define itself. The fact that you appear to be pushing that what the vast majority of world Islam considered and continues to consider to be heretical (e.g. Sufism, Ba'hais, and other aberrant distortions of their pure faith) and thus must be punished, demonstrates a willful ignorance or a spirit of Kuum ba yah-ism, where all religions peacefully coexist for all time together while seated around the piano playing John Lennon's Imagine (as they did post-Paris attacks last November).

    That's not how it works. If people want to know about Orthodox Islam, they would be best served to study the Koran, Hadith, other holy writings from the original start of the faith as well as go to legitimate representatives of that faith, namely, ask reputable imams from either the Sunni or the Shi'ite tradition. As roughly 85% of world wide Muslims are Sunni, with the rest Shi'ite, that would tend to demonstrate that these two strains constitute Orthodox (and thus legitimate) Islam. Orthodox Islam doesn't allow what it considers to be heretical strains to define the faith, any more than other faiths allow its heretical aberrations to define itself.

    Bertrand Russell is widely regarded as one of the greatest mathematicians, logicians as well as a strong philosopher of his own era. Sorry if those ignorant of the Western tradition cannot recognize that. His observations were quite accurate and on target for the time. It is a shame that National Socialism had not taken firm hold in Germany at the time or otherwise perhaps he would have included National Socialism when defining Islam.

    It is a sad but unfortunate fact that war is the natural state of man, so it has always been and so it shall always be.

    And, for the record, neither did I start this conversation with overt sarcasm nor quote from a person comparing my faith, glibly, to Communism. I’ll leave it to others to determine whether the charge of being disrespectful is well-founded.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Was it overt? Perhaps in this day and age more and more people, perhaps of the older generations tend to be butt-hurt and get their knickers all in a twist. Such is life, and unfortunately it does appear to happen on a regular basis.

    However, its best not to start various statements regarding a world faith which can be fairly demonstrated to either be a lie or a complete distortion of the actual historical record. (e.g. Baha'ism didn't come out of 19th century Iran Islam, when in fact it did. Sufism being part of Orthodox Islam, when in fact it is not, etc).

    Russell wasn't being glib. Also, he didn't make the comparison to Communism but to Bolshevism and there is a difference. Bolshevism turned toward Stalinism and Trotskyism. Communism is a more Utopian view of the final times where all good things shall exist, the botherhood of man, etc etc.

    Also from Russell:

    "Immediately after his death the conquests began, and they proceeded with rapidity... Westward expansion (except in Sicily and Southern Italy) was brought to a standstill by the defeat of the Mohammedans at the battle of Tours in 732, just one hundred years after the death of the Prophet... It was the duty of the faithful to conquer as much of the world as possible for Islam... "The first conquests of the Arabs began as mere raids for plunder, and only turned into permanent occupation after experience has shown the weakness of the enemy... The Arabs, although they conquered a great part of the world in the name of a new religion were not a very religious race; the motive of their conquests was plunder and wealth rather than religion."

    "The beliefs appropriate to the impulse of aggression may be seen in Bernhardi, or in the early Mohammedan conquerors, or, in full perfection, in the Book of Joshua. There is first of all a conviction of the superior excellence of one's own group, a certainty that they are in some sense the chosen people. This justifies the feeling that only the good and evil of one's own group is of real importance, and that the rest of the world is to be regarded merely as material for the triumph or salvation of the higher race. In modern politics this attitude is embodied in imperialism."


    What? No peace at the end of post? Talk about being glib by using a worn out, trite cliche. At the very least we should expect a Coexistist type of '60's, new age, all you need is love type of post script of some sort. I know, here's one.

    Can't we all just get along?

    You have a nice day.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  81. @Joe Schmoe
    The point isn't that the problem is soluble to the level of blacks as a group performing as high as other groups. Rather, the point is that blacks can do much better not just academically, but socially. Blacks have a higher fraction of students that must be expelled in order to maintain discipline and a healthy environment. Somewhere in the area of 5% of blacks are too disruptive to learn in a traditional classroom, whereas only 0.5% of whites and 0.1% of Asian Americans are too mentally disturbed to sit in a normal class. Practically however, political problems arise when taking 1 of 20 black kids out of school due to derangement, but only 1 of 200 white kids and 1 of 1000 Asian American kids out.

    Practically however, political problems arise when taking 1 of 20 black kids out of school due to derangement, but only 1 of 200 white kids and 1 of 1000 Asian American kids out.

    Indeed! And the reality is even more grim. It’s not just 5%, but more like 20% and perhaps even as high as 50% irredeemable. What use has the 21st Century for anyone with an IQ of <85? Yet that's what we face in America's hybridized negro population. For their full-blooded Bantu cousins still in mother Africa, half the population has an IQ below 70.

    How do you educate a kid with an IQ of 80 in the same school, let alone the same classroom or curriculum, as a kid with an IQ of 110? And yet our education dogma is that all these kids have the same potential and must therefore have the same outcome, kids with IQ 140 and kids with IQ 70 alike. This denial of reality guarantees catastrophic failure just as surely as an engineering dogma insisting that goose feathers are interchangeable with steel – just ignore the pile of bodies at the bottom of the gorge where the bridge once stood. The failure of the extreme dull witted is perhaps inevitable in a society which no longer has any use for brainless labor, but this failure factory is also severely harmful to our brightest and best along with the concomitant losses for society and civilization as a whole. Why would a very bright young white lad even try when he's told before beginning that the obvious imbecile negro seated next to him is his better in every respect? Or that there is something wrong with him for not behaving exactly like the average intellect and temperament girls in his class? How many bright white boys have we thus destroyed? How many more will we sacrifice on the altar of "diversity"?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  82. @Talha
    Hey Zato-Ichi,

    I've been down this road before with others...so here goes...

    Orthodox Islam regards Sufism, as well as the B’hai’s as heretical and apostates
     
    B'hais aren't apostates - they are not Muslim. Apostasy is an action - you must be Muslim in the first place too commit it, maybe their first generation committed it, subsequent people are simply born into a non-Muslim faith. Sufism is heretical? In toto? Says who - the Wahhabis? Sorry, but Orthodox Sunni Islam was doing just fine for the 12 centuries before they came on the map. I suggest a reading into men like Imams Ghazali, Sirhindi, Ibn Ata Illah (may God raise their ranks) to broaden one's knowledge on the subject.

    Also, no legitimate faith system allows its aberrations or heretical strains to define itself.
     
    Correct, and yet you are defining Islam though a Wahabbi/Salafist lens...those being aberrations from the normative voice for over 13 centuries.

    The fact that you appear to be pushing that what the vast majority of world Islam considered and continues to consider to be heretical
     
    The fact that you assume the vast majority of the Muslim world (including its scholarship at the top levels) considered and considers Sufism to be heretical bespeaks of a lack of knowledge on the subject matter. Please see my above suggestion.

    namely, ask reputable imams from either the Sunni or the Shi’ite tradition
     
    You mean like the current and former Grand Mufti of Pakistan who happen to be Sufis? Or the former Grand Mufti of al-Azhar, who was likewise? Or the last Grand Mufti of Mecca and Madinah during the Ottoman times?

    Orthodox Islam doesn’t allow what it considers to be heretical strains to define the faith
     
    Correct, that is the lexical meaning of 'orthodox' is it not?

    As far as Mr. Russell, I'm not ignorant of who he was; and I indeed laud his efforts to have a world rid of nuclear weapons. You forgot to mention historian. I'm simply stating that I consider his opinion to be lower than men like Thoreau or Emerson on this subject. They having actually read the works of the Persian Sufis and referenced them in their works.

    What is interesting is what you quoted from him about Islam; that it is "practical, social"... where I come from, those are generally not pejoratives - features, not bugs. Perhaps a religion stands higher in his regard if it is impractical and anti-social?

    But as far as him calling it as "unspiritual" as Communism; no, I stand by my statement. If he disregarded Sufism in his calculation, he was shockingly ignorant of it, especially when making claims to be a philosopher. How can one brush off the contributions to metaphysics of the entire Persian culture?

    A modest prediction; centuries down the road, Russell's name will be forgotten other than as footnotes in academic works and thesis arguments. The poetry and letters of men like Attar, Rumi, Ibn Arabi, Sirhindi, Jami', etc. (may God elevate their ranks) will continue to inspire hearts and their graves will continue to be visited.

    Peace.

    Re: Bahai’s, that is a deception. Bahai’ism grew out of Islam in 19th century Iran and they suffered persecution at the hands of Islam.

    “yet you are defining Islam though a Wahabbi/Salafist lens…those being aberrations from the normative voice for over 13 centuries.”

    No, I am looking at historical record of how official representatives of Islam behaved (e.g. conquest with the sword) or did you forget that important point. I am also observing that in point of fact, Wahabbism has a more direct historical line to Orthodox Islam itself than any kuum ba yahist Sufism singing round piano singing John Lennon’s Imagine. It also appears wherever they tend to go in Western Europe, the Islamic communities at large lack a desire to assimilate to the host countries (e.g. Malmo Sweden is now the first world’s rape capital, largely due to Muslims; Rotteram, England with the white slavery sex scandals; etc.) In other words, this mythical “all one needs is love and understanding”, while it may indeed have a strong strain in various world faiths, it is not a part of orthodox Islam and its historical record of conquest amply demonstrates that.

    Bertrand Russell was many things; an excellent observer on various topics of the time, but an actual credentialed historian was not one of them.

    I would also suggest:

    Eclecticism in Islam, Arthur Jeffery

    The Quest of the Historical Muhammad, Arthur Jeffery

    Materials for the History of the Text of the Qur’an, Arthur Jeffery

    A Variant Text of the Fatiha, Arthur Jeffery

    The Orthography of the Samarqand Codex, Arthur Jeffery

    The Textual History of the Qur’an, Arthur Jeffery

    Muhammad and His Religion, Arthur Jeffery

    Sources of Islam, by William St. Clair Tisdall

    The Qur’an in Islam: An Inquiry into the Integrity of the Quran, William Goldsack

    And of course the indispensable Hugh Fitzgerald. Follow him on twitter and ask him a question as he welcomes all and any sincere questions. I must admit I think you would actually like to talk with Mr. Fitzgerald, he is such a charming person and always tends to answer questions to the fullest extent possible on all matters relating to Islam.

    Sura 2.191: “And kill them [Infidels] wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing…”

    My, my, that does not sound very Sufi or peaceful-like. Perhaps the prophet was in one of his rare non-Sufi moods during that quite stressful time.

    And yet, war does appear to be the natural state of mankind for most of its history. As it was, so it shall ever be.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Zato-Ichi,

    that in point of fact, Wahabbism has a more direct historical line to Orthodox Islam
     
    The critics of Islam always seem to come to this conclusion (and the Wahabbis agree!); congratulations! Perhaps a joint conference should be held.

    kuum ba yahist Sufism
     
    Your definition, not ours.

    Malmo Sweden is now the first world’s rape capital, largely due to Muslims
     
    This is indeed deplorable - they should be punished or exiled. What exactly does this have to do with the discourse about Sufism and Orthodoxy?

    an actual credentialed historian was not one of them
     
    Thanks for the correction, that actually explains a lot.

    Arthur Jeffery
     
    Alright - old school Orientalists! In truth, I haven't read his criticisms. However, I have read similar criticisms by men like Margoliouth, Watt, Gibbons, Goldziher, etc. and was impressed at first. I was less impressed by their positions when I read the refutations by the former Grand Mufti of Pakistan. Orientalists seem to be operating under the one assumption that the Muslims have never made; the written Qur'an is the integral component of its transmission - it is not, the oral transmission is far more important. They've never taken our claims to the integrity of our oral tradition seriously; why should we take them seriously - they seem always to be stretching for an answer. I empathize with them, if I didn't believe in the Islamic narrative of Divine revelation, I'd be struggling to come up with some sort of explanation for the historical phenomenon as well.

    Hugh Fitzgerald
     
    Chum of men Robert Spencer and David Horowitz, no thanks. Those guys are as dogmatic in their beliefs about Islam as I am! Of course, I have the distinction of not being a darling of Neocons and Israeli-firsters...that shouldn't technically be germane to this discussion, but we all know it is.

    that does not sound very Sufi or peaceful-like
     
    In proper context, it is very Sufi-like. You can ask the thousands of invading French and Italian soldiers that fell in the deserts of Algeria and Libya to the rifles of the Qadiriyya and Sanussiyah. You can also ask the thousands of the Tsar's soldiers that fell in the forests of Chechnya to those of Imam Shamil's Naqshbandi Murids. You seem to have a very rigid understanding of Sufism, I would suggest looking into Prof. Alan Godlas (http://islam.uga.edu/profbio.html), who is probably the foremost expert on Sufism in America. A close second is Prof. Hamid Algar in UC Berkeley. The warrior saint is a very grounded part of our tradition (a town in Iowa, about half a day's drive from me is named after one):
    http://www.abdelkaderproject.org/about-emir-abdelkader/

    At this point, I can see this discussion is not going to bear any fruit. Your sources of information on Islam are so polar opposite to mine, that we aren't speaking apples-to-oranges, but rather apples-to-screwdrivers. Nothing personal. I do thank you for keeping it civil though and ask for pardon for any offense given in a moment of zeal.

    May God grant you a high station in this life and the next.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  83. @Talha
    And, for the record, neither did I start this conversation with overt sarcasm nor quote from a person comparing my faith, glibly, to Communism. I'll leave it to others to determine whether the charge of being disrespectful is well-founded.

    Was it overt? Perhaps in this day and age more and more people, perhaps of the older generations tend to be butt-hurt and get their knickers all in a twist. Such is life, and unfortunately it does appear to happen on a regular basis.

    However, its best not to start various statements regarding a world faith which can be fairly demonstrated to either be a lie or a complete distortion of the actual historical record. (e.g. Baha’ism didn’t come out of 19th century Iran Islam, when in fact it did. Sufism being part of Orthodox Islam, when in fact it is not, etc).

    Russell wasn’t being glib. Also, he didn’t make the comparison to Communism but to Bolshevism and there is a difference. Bolshevism turned toward Stalinism and Trotskyism. Communism is a more Utopian view of the final times where all good things shall exist, the botherhood of man, etc etc.

    Also from Russell:

    “Immediately after his death the conquests began, and they proceeded with rapidity… Westward expansion (except in Sicily and Southern Italy) was brought to a standstill by the defeat of the Mohammedans at the battle of Tours in 732, just one hundred years after the death of the Prophet… It was the duty of the faithful to conquer as much of the world as possible for Islam… “The first conquests of the Arabs began as mere raids for plunder, and only turned into permanent occupation after experience has shown the weakness of the enemy… The Arabs, although they conquered a great part of the world in the name of a new religion were not a very religious race; the motive of their conquests was plunder and wealth rather than religion.”

    “The beliefs appropriate to the impulse of aggression may be seen in Bernhardi, or in the early Mohammedan conquerors, or, in full perfection, in the Book of Joshua. There is first of all a conviction of the superior excellence of one’s own group, a certainty that they are in some sense the chosen people. This justifies the feeling that only the good and evil of one’s own group is of real importance, and that the rest of the world is to be regarded merely as material for the triumph or salvation of the higher race. In modern politics this attitude is embodied in imperialism.”

    What? No peace at the end of post? Talk about being glib by using a worn out, trite cliche. At the very least we should expect a Coexistist type of ’60′s, new age, all you need is love type of post script of some sort. I know, here’s one.

    Can’t we all just get along?

    You have a nice day.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Zato-Ichi,

    Baha’ism didn’t come out of 19th century Iran Islam
     
    Never said that - I said the first generation apostatized, any subsequent generations were born into a religion that was no longer Islam. My source is the most capable Hanafi scholar Sh. Muhammad Yaccoubi (db).

    Sufism being part of Orthodox Islam, when in fact it is not
     
    Imam Ghazali (db) disagrees - he is known among the Sunni Orthodox as 'Hujjat al-Islam' (The Proof of Islam). If you can prove Imam Ghazali (db) is outside of the Sunni Orthodox tradition, I will concede this point.

    The first conquests of the Arabs began as mere raids for plunder
     
    No, the first 'raids' were quite deliberately to smash the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires. Qadissiyah, Yarmouk, Nahawand can hardly be described as 'raids'. But it seems bizarre to state this was simply for plunder when the very first option given to a newly encountered population was 'join us in the faith' - which seems to undermine the motivations Russell ascribes:
    "When Muslim armies encountered non-Muslims outside the lands already under the rule of Islam, they were supposed to offer them the choice of conversion to Islam; payment of jizya and
    acceptance of dhimmi status; or trying the fortunes of war."
    Jihad in Islamic History, by M. Bonner (http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8280.html)

    The Arabs...were not a very religious race
     
    This was certainly the case with the majority of the Umayyad elite - we disagree as far as the first generation is concerned. All the source texts; Qur'an, hadith and even the chains of all the Sufi Orders trace back to them. Russell is welcome to his opinion.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  84. @Truth

    Now you are being quite disingenuous as well as quite disrespectful. Orthodox Islam regards Sufism, as well as the B’hai’s as heretical and apostates.
     
    There is not freestanding group called "Sufi". Sufi Muslims are either Shi'a or Sunni almost always. There are other fringe Muslim groups by the way, the nation of Oman has its own Muslim tradition.

    That is the case, but the larger point, namely, that there is a pacifistic, Quaker-like strain that has directly influenced Orthodox Islam since the beginning is not the case.

    And fringe groups have always been dealt accordingly by the orthodox.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  85. Talha says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Was it overt? Perhaps in this day and age more and more people, perhaps of the older generations tend to be butt-hurt and get their knickers all in a twist. Such is life, and unfortunately it does appear to happen on a regular basis.

    However, its best not to start various statements regarding a world faith which can be fairly demonstrated to either be a lie or a complete distortion of the actual historical record. (e.g. Baha'ism didn't come out of 19th century Iran Islam, when in fact it did. Sufism being part of Orthodox Islam, when in fact it is not, etc).

    Russell wasn't being glib. Also, he didn't make the comparison to Communism but to Bolshevism and there is a difference. Bolshevism turned toward Stalinism and Trotskyism. Communism is a more Utopian view of the final times where all good things shall exist, the botherhood of man, etc etc.

    Also from Russell:

    "Immediately after his death the conquests began, and they proceeded with rapidity... Westward expansion (except in Sicily and Southern Italy) was brought to a standstill by the defeat of the Mohammedans at the battle of Tours in 732, just one hundred years after the death of the Prophet... It was the duty of the faithful to conquer as much of the world as possible for Islam... "The first conquests of the Arabs began as mere raids for plunder, and only turned into permanent occupation after experience has shown the weakness of the enemy... The Arabs, although they conquered a great part of the world in the name of a new religion were not a very religious race; the motive of their conquests was plunder and wealth rather than religion."

    "The beliefs appropriate to the impulse of aggression may be seen in Bernhardi, or in the early Mohammedan conquerors, or, in full perfection, in the Book of Joshua. There is first of all a conviction of the superior excellence of one's own group, a certainty that they are in some sense the chosen people. This justifies the feeling that only the good and evil of one's own group is of real importance, and that the rest of the world is to be regarded merely as material for the triumph or salvation of the higher race. In modern politics this attitude is embodied in imperialism."


    What? No peace at the end of post? Talk about being glib by using a worn out, trite cliche. At the very least we should expect a Coexistist type of '60's, new age, all you need is love type of post script of some sort. I know, here's one.

    Can't we all just get along?

    You have a nice day.

    Hey Zato-Ichi,

    Baha’ism didn’t come out of 19th century Iran Islam

    Never said that – I said the first generation apostatized, any subsequent generations were born into a religion that was no longer Islam. My source is the most capable Hanafi scholar Sh. Muhammad Yaccoubi (db).

    Sufism being part of Orthodox Islam, when in fact it is not

    Imam Ghazali (db) disagrees – he is known among the Sunni Orthodox as ‘Hujjat al-Islam’ (The Proof of Islam). If you can prove Imam Ghazali (db) is outside of the Sunni Orthodox tradition, I will concede this point.

    The first conquests of the Arabs began as mere raids for plunder

    No, the first ‘raids’ were quite deliberately to smash the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires. Qadissiyah, Yarmouk, Nahawand can hardly be described as ‘raids’. But it seems bizarre to state this was simply for plunder when the very first option given to a newly encountered population was ‘join us in the faith’ – which seems to undermine the motivations Russell ascribes:
    “When Muslim armies encountered non-Muslims outside the lands already under the rule of Islam, they were supposed to offer them the choice of conversion to Islam; payment of jizya and
    acceptance of dhimmi status; or trying the fortunes of war.”
    Jihad in Islamic History, by M. Bonner (http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8280.html)

    The Arabs…were not a very religious race

    This was certainly the case with the majority of the Umayyad elite – we disagree as far as the first generation is concerned. All the source texts; Qur’an, hadith and even the chains of all the Sufi Orders trace back to them. Russell is welcome to his opinion.

    Peace.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  86. Fred seems to have an odd fascination with blacks and Mexicans.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  87. @globy
    Old friends of mine went through US public education in the nineteen-thirties and told me about their experiences. Even in small towns in Kentucky, high school students were trained in subjects like higher math, surveying, accounting, business management, chemistry, and the sciences.

    In nineteen-thirties depression-era America, students were being groomed to take their place in future manufacturing and business. Whether or not there were jobs available, American youth were being taught to become business managers, scientists, and skilled professionals for what would become the world's economic powerhouse (as the 'last man standing' after WWII, it was provident to provide business and scientific oriented education.)

    Perhaps the hard times helped to instill the necessity for a "good education" as the foundation for a better life.

    Only half of potential high school students completed high school in the 1930s…Also, the demographics were vastly different than what we have today.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Epochehusserl
    High school was much more difficult back then.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  88. Talha says:
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Re: Bahai's, that is a deception. Bahai'ism grew out of Islam in 19th century Iran and they suffered persecution at the hands of Islam.

    "yet you are defining Islam though a Wahabbi/Salafist lens…those being aberrations from the normative voice for over 13 centuries."

    No, I am looking at historical record of how official representatives of Islam behaved (e.g. conquest with the sword) or did you forget that important point. I am also observing that in point of fact, Wahabbism has a more direct historical line to Orthodox Islam itself than any kuum ba yahist Sufism singing round piano singing John Lennon's Imagine. It also appears wherever they tend to go in Western Europe, the Islamic communities at large lack a desire to assimilate to the host countries (e.g. Malmo Sweden is now the first world's rape capital, largely due to Muslims; Rotteram, England with the white slavery sex scandals; etc.) In other words, this mythical "all one needs is love and understanding", while it may indeed have a strong strain in various world faiths, it is not a part of orthodox Islam and its historical record of conquest amply demonstrates that.

    Bertrand Russell was many things; an excellent observer on various topics of the time, but an actual credentialed historian was not one of them.

    I would also suggest:

    Eclecticism in Islam, Arthur Jeffery

    The Quest of the Historical Muhammad, Arthur Jeffery

    Materials for the History of the Text of the Qur'an, Arthur Jeffery

    A Variant Text of the Fatiha, Arthur Jeffery

    The Orthography of the Samarqand Codex, Arthur Jeffery

    The Textual History of the Qur'an, Arthur Jeffery

    Muhammad and His Religion, Arthur Jeffery

    Sources of Islam, by William St. Clair Tisdall

    The Qur'an in Islam: An Inquiry into the Integrity of the Quran, William Goldsack

    And of course the indispensable Hugh Fitzgerald. Follow him on twitter and ask him a question as he welcomes all and any sincere questions. I must admit I think you would actually like to talk with Mr. Fitzgerald, he is such a charming person and always tends to answer questions to the fullest extent possible on all matters relating to Islam.

    Sura 2.191: “And kill them [Infidels] wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing…”

    My, my, that does not sound very Sufi or peaceful-like. Perhaps the prophet was in one of his rare non-Sufi moods during that quite stressful time.

    And yet, war does appear to be the natural state of mankind for most of its history. As it was, so it shall ever be.

    Hey Zato-Ichi,

    that in point of fact, Wahabbism has a more direct historical line to Orthodox Islam

    The critics of Islam always seem to come to this conclusion (and the Wahabbis agree!); congratulations! Perhaps a joint conference should be held.

    kuum ba yahist Sufism

    Your definition, not ours.

    Malmo Sweden is now the first world’s rape capital, largely due to Muslims

    This is indeed deplorable – they should be punished or exiled. What exactly does this have to do with the discourse about Sufism and Orthodoxy?

    an actual credentialed historian was not one of them

    Thanks for the correction, that actually explains a lot.

    Arthur Jeffery

    Alright – old school Orientalists! In truth, I haven’t read his criticisms. However, I have read similar criticisms by men like Margoliouth, Watt, Gibbons, Goldziher, etc. and was impressed at first. I was less impressed by their positions when I read the refutations by the former Grand Mufti of Pakistan. Orientalists seem to be operating under the one assumption that the Muslims have never made; the written Qur’an is the integral component of its transmission – it is not, the oral transmission is far more important. They’ve never taken our claims to the integrity of our oral tradition seriously; why should we take them seriously – they seem always to be stretching for an answer. I empathize with them, if I didn’t believe in the Islamic narrative of Divine revelation, I’d be struggling to come up with some sort of explanation for the historical phenomenon as well.

    Hugh Fitzgerald

    Chum of men Robert Spencer and David Horowitz, no thanks. Those guys are as dogmatic in their beliefs about Islam as I am! Of course, I have the distinction of not being a darling of Neocons and Israeli-firsters…that shouldn’t technically be germane to this discussion, but we all know it is.

    that does not sound very Sufi or peaceful-like

    In proper context, it is very Sufi-like. You can ask the thousands of invading French and Italian soldiers that fell in the deserts of Algeria and Libya to the rifles of the Qadiriyya and Sanussiyah. You can also ask the thousands of the Tsar’s soldiers that fell in the forests of Chechnya to those of Imam Shamil’s Naqshbandi Murids. You seem to have a very rigid understanding of Sufism, I would suggest looking into Prof. Alan Godlas (http://islam.uga.edu/profbio.html), who is probably the foremost expert on Sufism in America. A close second is Prof. Hamid Algar in UC Berkeley. The warrior saint is a very grounded part of our tradition (a town in Iowa, about half a day’s drive from me is named after one):

    http://www.abdelkaderproject.org/about-emir-abdelkader/

    At this point, I can see this discussion is not going to bear any fruit. Your sources of information on Islam are so polar opposite to mine, that we aren’t speaking apples-to-oranges, but rather apples-to-screwdrivers. Nothing personal. I do thank you for keeping it civil though and ask for pardon for any offense given in a moment of zeal.

    May God grant you a high station in this life and the next.

    Read More
    • Replies: @mtn cur
    The wahabbis take great satisfaction in seeing how western militaries can be suckered into attacking those whom they count as heretics and would kill themselves if they could.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  89. mtn cur says:
    @iffen
    they are being duped and this is by design.

    So what kind of duping goes on without design?

    I see that you have a kindred spirit in mtn cur.

    The left side of the curve does not fail within its capabilities, whether in Iraq or Appalachia. If there is failure, it is because the right side is failing to achieve within its capabilities. You two should take that to heart and quite whining about the peasants mucking up the place and concentrate on how your above the curve fellow-travelers are letting the place fall to shit.

    Even handedness that dilutes the purity of myopic points of view hardly qualifies as whining. The issue of intentionality in idiots and sociopaths is not of great interest to any but shrinks, since their playing others for suckers is often instinctive and anything but conscious or they would not risk an ax handle shampoo or worse when folks get wise to them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    The issue of intentionality in idiots and sociopaths is not of great interest to any but shrinks, since their playing others for suckers is often instinctive and anything but conscious

    Not a closed issue. There are ordinary Elmer Gantrys and there are Elmer Gantrys that actually believe what Elmer says.
    , @iffen
    Even handedness that dilutes the purity of myopic points of view hardly qualifies as whining.

    Even handedness requires disproportionate condemnation. The dupers should be held to a higher standard than the duped.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  90. iffen says:
    @Talha
    Hey iffen,


    So what kind of duping goes on without design?
     
    Good point - always keeping me concise eh?

    Just to be clear, I don't agree with this demarcation of IQ being the determinant in the value of people - I have seen plenty of sincere people of low intelligence and plenty of high IQ people that I would assume are sociopaths. It seems though, that the right side (of the curve) is split into two camps; one which would like to bring sanity back into the discourse and the other who is quite fine "letting the place fall to s*" and making money hand-over-fist all the way down and have rigged the system in their favor.

    Totally agree with you, at least on the case of the Muslim leadership, there has been a failure to make things more clear to the masses that are vulnerable to extremist messages. This is a poignant example of just how deep this crisis of authority is getting to the Muslim world:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77QODDURVMg

    Peace.

    Just to be clear, I don’t agree with this demarcation of IQ being the determinant in the value of people –

    I don’t either. I assume that comment was directed at the milieu of the article and comment thread rather than at me.

    … the right side (of the curve) is split into two camps; one which would like to bring sanity back into the discourse and the other who is quite fine “letting the place fall to s*” and making money hand-over-fist all the way down and have rigged the system in their favor.

    Absolutely, and smarter people than me have pointed out that the fraction of the selfish seems to have been increasing and is no longer counterbalanced in numbers by the “virtuous”.

    … there has been a failure to make things more clear to the masses that are vulnerable to extremist messages.

    As far as the people of the Bible-belt, unfortunately they are being duped and this is by design.

    Here is my complaint to you.

    You point out that many Muslims are being misled by what “I” would call false teaching. These are Muslims in Muslim countries who are descendants of Muslims for many, many generations. How many millions are mis-guided? OTOH you seem to expect my Bible-belt peeps to be able to distinguish between the “righteous” and “mis-guided” Muslims when millions of Muslims around the world are demonstrably unable to do so themselves. I do not excuse their religious intolerance, but I do see the origin of some of their complaints. For example, the speaker in the clip referenced going to the White House. Would this speaker be able to deliver this lecture in Tehran? I know that you are appreciative of our liberal democratic values and regret that so much of the Muslim world is anti-thetical to these values.

    Read More
    • Replies: @mtn cur
    It should be noted that many not only find it profitable, but safer to be duped most everywhere you go, and you repeat the most valid point that in the "west," expressions other than the party line are tolerated; indeed, the privilege is so abused that few seem aware that rights and liberty do not exist except as the fruit of responsibility and reciprocal obligation.
    , @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    you seem to expect my Bible-belt peeps to be able to distinguish between the “righteous” and “mis-guided” Muslims when millions of Muslims around the world are demonstrably unable to do so themselves.
     
    I don't - the onus is on the Muslims to seize the normative again. I was simply stating that they (Bible-belt) are victims of a well-oiled propaganda machine. As an example of how it guides the narrative...there was a film called the "Beast of War" about the Afghan War made in 1988. It is actually very sympathetic to the mujahedin and portrays them in a very positive and honorable light (it actually is an enjoyable film). This was, of course, the useful narrative for that time. Where was it filmed? In the Negev desert of Israel, using modified (Egyptian) Soviet tanks captured and loaned by the IDF:
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094716/

    You know your peeps better, but my general impression is that most of those folks don't have a firm grasp on the nuances within their own faith tradition - I can hardly expect them to grasp the details of a faith tradition that is alien to them.


    Would this speaker be able to deliver this lecture in Tehran?
     
    Likely - Iran is restrictive, no doubt, but it is less restrictive than we have been led to believe by those who claim we have no grounds for dialog.

    I know that you are appreciative of our liberal democratic values and regret that so much of the Muslim world is anti-thetical to these values.
     
    True that - I will readily admit that no Muslim society is likely going to be open to a no-holds-barred say-whatever-you-want type of environment. However, the discourse is unfortunately stifled far too much - we need to get back to the times of the Ibn Sina-Ghazali-Ibn Rushd debates without worry that someone will be killed.

    As always, may God preserve you and yours.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  91. mtn cur says:
    @globy
    mtn cur says:
    See Jesse Stuarts “The Thread That Runs So True,” for a snapshot of education in the Ky Cumberlands in the twenties and thirties.


    Thank you for the recommendation, it looks like an interesting book from the reviews... A man teaching from age seventeen in a one room rural schoolhouse exemplifies true education - inspiring the individual to learn on their own, rather than relying on rote memorization as taught in modern educational systems.

    Jesse Stuart, in the 1920's rural schoolhouse, was a true educator in that he had control over his class and he had to design and organize how he presented his subjects. Today, specific educational subjects are packaged and sold to public school districts by educational publishing houses. Just like training in the military, every student gets the same lecture, the same course materials, and even the same joke, all prepackaged in the teacher's "curriculum guide" to be delivered over and over again, replete with CD-Rom powerpoints for the class to follow. The teacher, even if they have any good sense or ability, must conform to the curriculum guide if they want to earn a check. Any deviation is considered heresy of modern educational method.

    By way of return for the book suggestion, I might suggest educator John Gatto's famously ignored book, "The Underground History of American Education" likely available online for a download. Gatto describes the bureaucratic hierarchy of the educational monolith in great detail and the turgid, regimented, mentally dead classrooms; and above all the shaming and destruction of children's native curiosity and imagination. If you want to know why US schools don't work and children don't get an education, take a look at Gatto's book.

    Thanks for the tip. I revise and extend my remark to the effect that one size fits all does not work for school children any better than for bra sizes.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  92. mtn cur says:
    @Talha
    Hey Zato-Ichi,

    that in point of fact, Wahabbism has a more direct historical line to Orthodox Islam
     
    The critics of Islam always seem to come to this conclusion (and the Wahabbis agree!); congratulations! Perhaps a joint conference should be held.

    kuum ba yahist Sufism
     
    Your definition, not ours.

    Malmo Sweden is now the first world’s rape capital, largely due to Muslims
     
    This is indeed deplorable - they should be punished or exiled. What exactly does this have to do with the discourse about Sufism and Orthodoxy?

    an actual credentialed historian was not one of them
     
    Thanks for the correction, that actually explains a lot.

    Arthur Jeffery
     
    Alright - old school Orientalists! In truth, I haven't read his criticisms. However, I have read similar criticisms by men like Margoliouth, Watt, Gibbons, Goldziher, etc. and was impressed at first. I was less impressed by their positions when I read the refutations by the former Grand Mufti of Pakistan. Orientalists seem to be operating under the one assumption that the Muslims have never made; the written Qur'an is the integral component of its transmission - it is not, the oral transmission is far more important. They've never taken our claims to the integrity of our oral tradition seriously; why should we take them seriously - they seem always to be stretching for an answer. I empathize with them, if I didn't believe in the Islamic narrative of Divine revelation, I'd be struggling to come up with some sort of explanation for the historical phenomenon as well.

    Hugh Fitzgerald
     
    Chum of men Robert Spencer and David Horowitz, no thanks. Those guys are as dogmatic in their beliefs about Islam as I am! Of course, I have the distinction of not being a darling of Neocons and Israeli-firsters...that shouldn't technically be germane to this discussion, but we all know it is.

    that does not sound very Sufi or peaceful-like
     
    In proper context, it is very Sufi-like. You can ask the thousands of invading French and Italian soldiers that fell in the deserts of Algeria and Libya to the rifles of the Qadiriyya and Sanussiyah. You can also ask the thousands of the Tsar's soldiers that fell in the forests of Chechnya to those of Imam Shamil's Naqshbandi Murids. You seem to have a very rigid understanding of Sufism, I would suggest looking into Prof. Alan Godlas (http://islam.uga.edu/profbio.html), who is probably the foremost expert on Sufism in America. A close second is Prof. Hamid Algar in UC Berkeley. The warrior saint is a very grounded part of our tradition (a town in Iowa, about half a day's drive from me is named after one):
    http://www.abdelkaderproject.org/about-emir-abdelkader/

    At this point, I can see this discussion is not going to bear any fruit. Your sources of information on Islam are so polar opposite to mine, that we aren't speaking apples-to-oranges, but rather apples-to-screwdrivers. Nothing personal. I do thank you for keeping it civil though and ask for pardon for any offense given in a moment of zeal.

    May God grant you a high station in this life and the next.

    The wahabbis take great satisfaction in seeing how western militaries can be suckered into attacking those whom they count as heretics and would kill themselves if they could.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Dear mtn cur,

    Agreed - this seems to be a brilliant tactic, as wise people like Michael Scheuer have made clear. Any provocation on their part costs in the few thousands, any response on our part costs billions. The good thing is Americans are feeling Imperial fatigue like the British did and hopefully we will see our soldiers come back to their families soon (all appendages intact).

    A side note on Wahhabism/Salafism. It is definitely a departure from the Sunni Orthodox tradition, but it can be a relatively innocuous one. If it props itself up as simply a 5th, new school of jurisprudence, we really have no problem with it and I have personally seen letters of debates between W/S scholars and other Sunni schools which have been cordial and eloquent. And, in fact, some of their senior scholars have been extremely forthright in denouncing terrorism:
    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/08/19/Saudi-mufti-ISIS-is-enemy-No-1-of-Islam-.html

    However, because it departed from the established consensus, it introduced something pernicious into the mix; a strain that feels anybody can interpret the source texts - a kind of 'democratizing' of Islamic authority. Not all W/S scholars encourage this line of thinking, but enough of the lower strata do - I know, we used to debate with the 'fruits of their labors' on campus. And once people have been given this idea that anyone can interpret the religion, then you have knee-capped your own authority to be able to reign them back in. My own teacher told me of how he has seen people hand a copy of Sahih Bukharito a completely new Muslimand tell them, this (and the Qur'an) are all they need to figure out Islam. This leads to two things; 1) an inflexible position that I am right and everyone else is necessarily wrong and 2) adoption of positions that break with centuries of established consensus. Again, not really bad if you want to simply change the position of hands in prayer, but it is horrible if you say there are no restrictions on the targeting of women and children in war.

    If you have the time, this transcript of a debate between a Salafi preacher and the late Sh. Ramadan Buti (ra) - who was a lamp of guidance in the Levant. The crux of the issue starts about midway into the discussion and you can see how potentially dangerous this can get:
    http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/buti.htm

    May God preserve you and yours.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  93. mtn cur says:
    @iffen
    Just to be clear, I don’t agree with this demarcation of IQ being the determinant in the value of people –

    I don’t either. I assume that comment was directed at the milieu of the article and comment thread rather than at me.

    … the right side (of the curve) is split into two camps; one which would like to bring sanity back into the discourse and the other who is quite fine “letting the place fall to s*” and making money hand-over-fist all the way down and have rigged the system in their favor.

    Absolutely, and smarter people than me have pointed out that the fraction of the selfish seems to have been increasing and is no longer counterbalanced in numbers by the “virtuous”.

    … there has been a failure to make things more clear to the masses that are vulnerable to extremist messages.

    As far as the people of the Bible-belt, unfortunately they are being duped and this is by design.

    Here is my complaint to you.

    You point out that many Muslims are being misled by what “I” would call false teaching. These are Muslims in Muslim countries who are descendants of Muslims for many, many generations. How many millions are mis-guided? OTOH you seem to expect my Bible-belt peeps to be able to distinguish between the “righteous” and “mis-guided” Muslims when millions of Muslims around the world are demonstrably unable to do so themselves. I do not excuse their religious intolerance, but I do see the origin of some of their complaints. For example, the speaker in the clip referenced going to the White House. Would this speaker be able to deliver this lecture in Tehran? I know that you are appreciative of our liberal democratic values and regret that so much of the Muslim world is anti-thetical to these values.

    It should be noted that many not only find it profitable, but safer to be duped most everywhere you go, and you repeat the most valid point that in the “west,” expressions other than the party line are tolerated; indeed, the privilege is so abused that few seem aware that rights and liberty do not exist except as the fruit of responsibility and reciprocal obligation.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  94. mtn cur says:
    @Jim
    Fred - You're always telling us how wonderful Mexico is and how well-educated and bookish Mexicans are. But Mexico has low PISA scores and for a country of 120 million has made little contribution to the sciences.

    Also of the 50 most violent cities in the world in 2015, 10 were in Mexico vs. 4 in the much larger US. The overwhelming number of the cities in the list were in Latin America. Not a single city on the Eurasian continent made the list. Why is Latin America so violent? Per capita GDP in Mexico is actually higher than in China (about 19k vs. 15k) but Mexican levels of violence are unheard of in China. Per capita income in India is about 7k but no city in that huge subcontinent of about a billion people was on the list.

    Latin America with about 8% of the world's population accounts for 30% of the world's homicides. What makes Latin Americans so prone to violence?

    Contrast Spanish colonial policy in most of South and central America with that of Portugals in Brazil; you will see a big difference. Brazil only recently has begun to mimic the remainder of the region despite at least as many mind boggling problems. The Dons seem still to think the same way now as they did in 1491 and the fault lines are as apparent in Iberia as in the colonies.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  95. iffen says:
    @mtn cur
    Even handedness that dilutes the purity of myopic points of view hardly qualifies as whining. The issue of intentionality in idiots and sociopaths is not of great interest to any but shrinks, since their playing others for suckers is often instinctive and anything but conscious or they would not risk an ax handle shampoo or worse when folks get wise to them.

    The issue of intentionality in idiots and sociopaths is not of great interest to any but shrinks, since their playing others for suckers is often instinctive and anything but conscious

    Not a closed issue. There are ordinary Elmer Gantrys and there are Elmer Gantrys that actually believe what Elmer says.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  96. iffen says:
    @mtn cur
    Even handedness that dilutes the purity of myopic points of view hardly qualifies as whining. The issue of intentionality in idiots and sociopaths is not of great interest to any but shrinks, since their playing others for suckers is often instinctive and anything but conscious or they would not risk an ax handle shampoo or worse when folks get wise to them.

    Even handedness that dilutes the purity of myopic points of view hardly qualifies as whining.

    Even handedness requires disproportionate condemnation. The dupers should be held to a higher standard than the duped.

    Read More
    • Replies: @mtn cur
    Likely true, although I tend to regard such as merely one more sort of retardation or OCD, which may or may not respond to instruction. We seem stuck with dealing with individual cases which is burdensome at best. I confess that administering an ax handle shampoo may be gratifying but I must agree with the Jesuitical case of ends justifying means, granting my friends opinion that with vigorous application, the shampoo militates against fraud through physical incapacity.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  97. Talha says:
    @iffen
    Just to be clear, I don’t agree with this demarcation of IQ being the determinant in the value of people –

    I don’t either. I assume that comment was directed at the milieu of the article and comment thread rather than at me.

    … the right side (of the curve) is split into two camps; one which would like to bring sanity back into the discourse and the other who is quite fine “letting the place fall to s*” and making money hand-over-fist all the way down and have rigged the system in their favor.

    Absolutely, and smarter people than me have pointed out that the fraction of the selfish seems to have been increasing and is no longer counterbalanced in numbers by the “virtuous”.

    … there has been a failure to make things more clear to the masses that are vulnerable to extremist messages.

    As far as the people of the Bible-belt, unfortunately they are being duped and this is by design.

    Here is my complaint to you.

    You point out that many Muslims are being misled by what “I” would call false teaching. These are Muslims in Muslim countries who are descendants of Muslims for many, many generations. How many millions are mis-guided? OTOH you seem to expect my Bible-belt peeps to be able to distinguish between the “righteous” and “mis-guided” Muslims when millions of Muslims around the world are demonstrably unable to do so themselves. I do not excuse their religious intolerance, but I do see the origin of some of their complaints. For example, the speaker in the clip referenced going to the White House. Would this speaker be able to deliver this lecture in Tehran? I know that you are appreciative of our liberal democratic values and regret that so much of the Muslim world is anti-thetical to these values.

    Hey iffen,

    you seem to expect my Bible-belt peeps to be able to distinguish between the “righteous” and “mis-guided” Muslims when millions of Muslims around the world are demonstrably unable to do so themselves.

    I don’t – the onus is on the Muslims to seize the normative again. I was simply stating that they (Bible-belt) are victims of a well-oiled propaganda machine. As an example of how it guides the narrative…there was a film called the “Beast of War” about the Afghan War made in 1988. It is actually very sympathetic to the mujahedin and portrays them in a very positive and honorable light (it actually is an enjoyable film). This was, of course, the useful narrative for that time. Where was it filmed? In the Negev desert of Israel, using modified (Egyptian) Soviet tanks captured and loaned by the IDF:

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094716/

    You know your peeps better, but my general impression is that most of those folks don’t have a firm grasp on the nuances within their own faith tradition – I can hardly expect them to grasp the details of a faith tradition that is alien to them.

    Would this speaker be able to deliver this lecture in Tehran?

    Likely – Iran is restrictive, no doubt, but it is less restrictive than we have been led to believe by those who claim we have no grounds for dialog.

    I know that you are appreciative of our liberal democratic values and regret that so much of the Muslim world is anti-thetical to these values.

    True that – I will readily admit that no Muslim society is likely going to be open to a no-holds-barred say-whatever-you-want type of environment. However, the discourse is unfortunately stifled far too much – we need to get back to the times of the Ibn Sina-Ghazali-Ibn Rushd debates without worry that someone will be killed.

    As always, may God preserve you and yours.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    … are victims of a well-oiled propaganda machine … Where was it filmed? In the Negev desert of Israel, using modified (Egyptian) Soviet tanks captured and loaned by the IDF

    I hope you are not going where these remarks are hinting.

    … but my general impression is that most of those folks don’t have a firm grasp on the nuances…

    No doubt true, just don’t judge them by the standards of well-educated scholars of Islam; compare them to the Muslim masses in the Muslim world.

    Likely – Iran is restrictive, no doubt

    He could go there and say that the religious should be separated from the government?

    As always, I enjoy your comments.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  98. iffen says:
    @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    you seem to expect my Bible-belt peeps to be able to distinguish between the “righteous” and “mis-guided” Muslims when millions of Muslims around the world are demonstrably unable to do so themselves.
     
    I don't - the onus is on the Muslims to seize the normative again. I was simply stating that they (Bible-belt) are victims of a well-oiled propaganda machine. As an example of how it guides the narrative...there was a film called the "Beast of War" about the Afghan War made in 1988. It is actually very sympathetic to the mujahedin and portrays them in a very positive and honorable light (it actually is an enjoyable film). This was, of course, the useful narrative for that time. Where was it filmed? In the Negev desert of Israel, using modified (Egyptian) Soviet tanks captured and loaned by the IDF:
    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094716/

    You know your peeps better, but my general impression is that most of those folks don't have a firm grasp on the nuances within their own faith tradition - I can hardly expect them to grasp the details of a faith tradition that is alien to them.


    Would this speaker be able to deliver this lecture in Tehran?
     
    Likely - Iran is restrictive, no doubt, but it is less restrictive than we have been led to believe by those who claim we have no grounds for dialog.

    I know that you are appreciative of our liberal democratic values and regret that so much of the Muslim world is anti-thetical to these values.
     
    True that - I will readily admit that no Muslim society is likely going to be open to a no-holds-barred say-whatever-you-want type of environment. However, the discourse is unfortunately stifled far too much - we need to get back to the times of the Ibn Sina-Ghazali-Ibn Rushd debates without worry that someone will be killed.

    As always, may God preserve you and yours.

    … are victims of a well-oiled propaganda machine … Where was it filmed? In the Negev desert of Israel, using modified (Egyptian) Soviet tanks captured and loaned by the IDF

    I hope you are not going where these remarks are hinting.

    … but my general impression is that most of those folks don’t have a firm grasp on the nuances…

    No doubt true, just don’t judge them by the standards of well-educated scholars of Islam; compare them to the Muslim masses in the Muslim world.

    Likely – Iran is restrictive, no doubt

    He could go there and say that the religious should be separated from the government?

    As always, I enjoy your comments.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    I hope you are not going where these remarks are hinting.
     
    You mean - "It's the Jews what done it!" No - that's not my shtick - this was simply a stark example of inner contradictions in the propaganda machine that are simply ironed over to achieve the desired ends.

    He could go there and say that the religious should be separated from the government?
     
    Likely - this debate is actually alive and well within Iran and has been. The proponents of Vilayat-e-Faqih are currently ascendant:
    http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e2459?_hi=0&_pos=15

    This is a historic departure (relatively recent) from the majority of Shiah scholarship; most have taken the position that religious scholars only advise and assumption of sovereignty is in abeyance until the arrival of the Mahdi (ra). When Khomenei brought his ideas forth, they were denounced by many high-ranking Shiah scholars. To this day, major marja's (scholars of the highest rank in Shiah jurisprudence) simply do not accept the concept:
    "The conflict between Najaf and Tehran has become obvious as the two schools are fairly different - especially when it comes to the issue of wilayat al-faqih [the guardianship of the jurist]," said Abdul Wahhab al-Hussaini, a political analyst.
    "Najafi scholars do not believe in this concept at all, but Khamenei uses it to shore up his authority and influence in the region, especially in Iraq," he added.
    "Khamenei believes that his wilayat al-faqih authority extends to Iraq, while Sistani rejects such intervention, because the country has its own system of governance and the role of the religious authority [in Iraq] is strictly advisory."
    https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/politics/2015/11/10/shia-split-sistani-and-khamenei-clash-over-iraqs-future

    For a nice lecture on limits, demarcation, responsibilities and overlap between jurists and the government from a Sunni perspective see the following (doesn't cover everything, but it is quite good):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e403Hn3L9CU

    And, as always, I appreciate you keeping me on point - God bless.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  99. Talha says:
    @mtn cur
    The wahabbis take great satisfaction in seeing how western militaries can be suckered into attacking those whom they count as heretics and would kill themselves if they could.

    Dear mtn cur,

    Agreed – this seems to be a brilliant tactic, as wise people like Michael Scheuer have made clear. Any provocation on their part costs in the few thousands, any response on our part costs billions. The good thing is Americans are feeling Imperial fatigue like the British did and hopefully we will see our soldiers come back to their families soon (all appendages intact).

    A side note on Wahhabism/Salafism. It is definitely a departure from the Sunni Orthodox tradition, but it can be a relatively innocuous one. If it props itself up as simply a 5th, new school of jurisprudence, we really have no problem with it and I have personally seen letters of debates between W/S scholars and other Sunni schools which have been cordial and eloquent. And, in fact, some of their senior scholars have been extremely forthright in denouncing terrorism:

    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/08/19/Saudi-mufti-ISIS-is-enemy-No-1-of-Islam-.html

    However, because it departed from the established consensus, it introduced something pernicious into the mix; a strain that feels anybody can interpret the source texts – a kind of ‘democratizing’ of Islamic authority. Not all W/S scholars encourage this line of thinking, but enough of the lower strata do – I know, we used to debate with the ‘fruits of their labors’ on campus. And once people have been given this idea that anyone can interpret the religion, then you have knee-capped your own authority to be able to reign them back in. My own teacher told me of how he has seen people hand a copy of Sahih Bukharito a completely new Muslimand tell them, this (and the Qur’an) are all they need to figure out Islam. This leads to two things; 1) an inflexible position that I am right and everyone else is necessarily wrong and 2) adoption of positions that break with centuries of established consensus. Again, not really bad if you want to simply change the position of hands in prayer, but it is horrible if you say there are no restrictions on the targeting of women and children in war.

    If you have the time, this transcript of a debate between a Salafi preacher and the late Sh. Ramadan Buti (ra) – who was a lamp of guidance in the Levant. The crux of the issue starts about midway into the discussion and you can see how potentially dangerous this can get:

    http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/buti.htm

    May God preserve you and yours.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    And once people have been given this idea that anyone can interpret the religion,

    Shades of Martin Luther!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  100. Marty [AKA "Near Vicksburg"] says:
    @Gene Su
    I have read this article years ago on Mr. Reed's sight. I have also read some of the comments here. I think a lot of people here are missing the point.

    1. I don't think the gap between blacks, Hispanics, whites, and Asians is based on genetics and intelligence. I think that it is based on discipline, culture, and attitudes. The predominant culture among far too many minorities does not put any priority on obtaining an education or learning useful skills. Rather, the emphasis is placed on behaving in an intimidating manner to extort respect. Watch any rap video if you don't believe me.

    2. I think it is a liberal delusion to think we can judge "school" away this attitude. Confining a child to a room until he learns his ABC's is counter productive. If a child doesn't want to learn, no amount of cajoling will get him to learn.

    3. Having said that, the problem with our schools is not that they try to educate children who can't be educated. The problem is that they were never meant to educate children. The argument that public schools have been instituted to lift up the destitute and disadvantage is total hogwash. For the last century or so, American elites have wanted our children to be docile and controllable: They realized they can accomplish this through the use of the following useful harms:

    a. Ignorant people are easier to control than educated people. Sam Blumenfeld has written on how reading instruction has been made ineffectual since phonics are no longer emphasized. This is the reason why so many black children are functionally illiterate.

    b. Inattentive children grow up to become inattentive adults. For most of the 12 years children spent in the class room, they learn silly things that they will never have to use in their adult life from an instructor who sounds like Ben Stein's character. When they become adults, they become inattentive to current events such as the fact that Bush Jr went into Iraq in response to a terrorist group based in Afghanistan.

    c. Children who are not shown how to be competent will not know how to be competent when they grow up. Note that many text books today have many mistakes in them. A lot of the younger teachers do not have a strong grasp on spelling, grammar, and math. Furthermore, they are instructed not to correct their charges' work. There is a connection between this and the new data entry guy in the next cubicle that make mistakes in every record he processes.

    4. You can bet your bottom dollar that black elites know exactly what is going on in the public schools. They support it so that they can more easily control their constituencies.

    Are you unaware that most “elite” blacks (I.e. six figure income) only get that way as a result of the black jobs program known as the public schools?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Triumph104
    Think out outside of full-time educators. Think of the attorneys at the NAACP Legal Defense Fund who demand that disruptive children stay in the classroom so that other children can't learn. The NAACP is funded by test makers so the NAACP is pro-standardized tests.

    Think of Cory Booker who suckered Mark Zuckerberg out of $100M for Newark Public Schools.

    Think of Magic Johnson who operates a tax-payer funded online diploma mill for high school dropouts that awards them a diploma printed with the name of the high school that they dropped out of. Magic also received an $80M custodial contract for some of the Chicago Public School buildings. Magic donated $250K to Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel.

    Think of the rapper Nas whose startup is targeting blacks and Hispanics for coding boot camps after it was announced last year that federal Pell Grant money could be used for coding boot camps.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  101. Talha says:
    @iffen
    … are victims of a well-oiled propaganda machine … Where was it filmed? In the Negev desert of Israel, using modified (Egyptian) Soviet tanks captured and loaned by the IDF

    I hope you are not going where these remarks are hinting.

    … but my general impression is that most of those folks don’t have a firm grasp on the nuances…

    No doubt true, just don’t judge them by the standards of well-educated scholars of Islam; compare them to the Muslim masses in the Muslim world.

    Likely – Iran is restrictive, no doubt

    He could go there and say that the religious should be separated from the government?

    As always, I enjoy your comments.

    Hey iffen,

    I hope you are not going where these remarks are hinting.

    You mean – “It’s the Jews what done it!” No – that’s not my shtick – this was simply a stark example of inner contradictions in the propaganda machine that are simply ironed over to achieve the desired ends.

    He could go there and say that the religious should be separated from the government?

    Likely – this debate is actually alive and well within Iran and has been. The proponents of Vilayat-e-Faqih are currently ascendant:

    http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e2459?_hi=0&_pos=15

    This is a historic departure (relatively recent) from the majority of Shiah scholarship; most have taken the position that religious scholars only advise and assumption of sovereignty is in abeyance until the arrival of the Mahdi (ra). When Khomenei brought his ideas forth, they were denounced by many high-ranking Shiah scholars. To this day, major marja’s (scholars of the highest rank in Shiah jurisprudence) simply do not accept the concept:
    “The conflict between Najaf and Tehran has become obvious as the two schools are fairly different – especially when it comes to the issue of wilayat al-faqih [the guardianship of the jurist],” said Abdul Wahhab al-Hussaini, a political analyst.
    “Najafi scholars do not believe in this concept at all, but Khamenei uses it to shore up his authority and influence in the region, especially in Iraq,” he added.
    “Khamenei believes that his wilayat al-faqih authority extends to Iraq, while Sistani rejects such intervention, because the country has its own system of governance and the role of the religious authority [in Iraq] is strictly advisory.”

    https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/politics/2015/11/10/shia-split-sistani-and-khamenei-clash-over-iraqs-future

    For a nice lecture on limits, demarcation, responsibilities and overlap between jurists and the government from a Sunni perspective see the following (doesn’t cover everything, but it is quite good):

    And, as always, I appreciate you keeping me on point – God bless.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    I read the two links. Unless I am missing something this is a split between an Iraqi and an Iranian. I want to see evidence of some sort of open discussion within Iran.

    Where does the school that you follow fall out with regards to wilayat al-faqih?

    1 hour and 17 minutes, come on, for that I must be promised the keys to the kingdom.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  102. iffen says:
    @Talha
    Dear mtn cur,

    Agreed - this seems to be a brilliant tactic, as wise people like Michael Scheuer have made clear. Any provocation on their part costs in the few thousands, any response on our part costs billions. The good thing is Americans are feeling Imperial fatigue like the British did and hopefully we will see our soldiers come back to their families soon (all appendages intact).

    A side note on Wahhabism/Salafism. It is definitely a departure from the Sunni Orthodox tradition, but it can be a relatively innocuous one. If it props itself up as simply a 5th, new school of jurisprudence, we really have no problem with it and I have personally seen letters of debates between W/S scholars and other Sunni schools which have been cordial and eloquent. And, in fact, some of their senior scholars have been extremely forthright in denouncing terrorism:
    http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/08/19/Saudi-mufti-ISIS-is-enemy-No-1-of-Islam-.html

    However, because it departed from the established consensus, it introduced something pernicious into the mix; a strain that feels anybody can interpret the source texts - a kind of 'democratizing' of Islamic authority. Not all W/S scholars encourage this line of thinking, but enough of the lower strata do - I know, we used to debate with the 'fruits of their labors' on campus. And once people have been given this idea that anyone can interpret the religion, then you have knee-capped your own authority to be able to reign them back in. My own teacher told me of how he has seen people hand a copy of Sahih Bukharito a completely new Muslimand tell them, this (and the Qur'an) are all they need to figure out Islam. This leads to two things; 1) an inflexible position that I am right and everyone else is necessarily wrong and 2) adoption of positions that break with centuries of established consensus. Again, not really bad if you want to simply change the position of hands in prayer, but it is horrible if you say there are no restrictions on the targeting of women and children in war.

    If you have the time, this transcript of a debate between a Salafi preacher and the late Sh. Ramadan Buti (ra) - who was a lamp of guidance in the Levant. The crux of the issue starts about midway into the discussion and you can see how potentially dangerous this can get:
    http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/buti.htm

    May God preserve you and yours.

    And once people have been given this idea that anyone can interpret the religion,

    Shades of Martin Luther!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  103. mtn cur says:
    @iffen
    Even handedness that dilutes the purity of myopic points of view hardly qualifies as whining.

    Even handedness requires disproportionate condemnation. The dupers should be held to a higher standard than the duped.

    Likely true, although I tend to regard such as merely one more sort of retardation or OCD, which may or may not respond to instruction. We seem stuck with dealing with individual cases which is burdensome at best. I confess that administering an ax handle shampoo may be gratifying but I must agree with the Jesuitical case of ends justifying means, granting my friends opinion that with vigorous application, the shampoo militates against fraud through physical incapacity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    We seem stuck with dealing with individual cases which is burdensome at best

    Yes, this seems to be the major point of discombobulation. It would be much simpler if we could go back to the group identification way. It is simple, straightforward, not a lot of wasted brain power, just check to see if the correct tattoo, hair style, clothing, language, religion, etc., whatever, is there and get on with it.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  104. @Marty
    Are you unaware that most "elite" blacks (I.e. six figure income) only get that way as a result of the black jobs program known as the public schools?

    Think out outside of full-time educators. Think of the attorneys at the NAACP Legal Defense Fund who demand that disruptive children stay in the classroom so that other children can’t learn. The NAACP is funded by test makers so the NAACP is pro-standardized tests.

    Think of Cory Booker who suckered Mark Zuckerberg out of $100M for Newark Public Schools.

    Think of Magic Johnson who operates a tax-payer funded online diploma mill for high school dropouts that awards them a diploma printed with the name of the high school that they dropped out of. Magic also received an $80M custodial contract for some of the Chicago Public School buildings. Magic donated $250K to Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel.

    Think of the rapper Nas whose startup is targeting blacks and Hispanics for coding boot camps after it was announced last year that federal Pell Grant money could be used for coding boot camps.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  105. iffen says:
    @mtn cur
    Likely true, although I tend to regard such as merely one more sort of retardation or OCD, which may or may not respond to instruction. We seem stuck with dealing with individual cases which is burdensome at best. I confess that administering an ax handle shampoo may be gratifying but I must agree with the Jesuitical case of ends justifying means, granting my friends opinion that with vigorous application, the shampoo militates against fraud through physical incapacity.

    We seem stuck with dealing with individual cases which is burdensome at best

    Yes, this seems to be the major point of discombobulation. It would be much simpler if we could go back to the group identification way. It is simple, straightforward, not a lot of wasted brain power, just check to see if the correct tattoo, hair style, clothing, language, religion, etc., whatever, is there and get on with it.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  106. iffen says:
    @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    I hope you are not going where these remarks are hinting.
     
    You mean - "It's the Jews what done it!" No - that's not my shtick - this was simply a stark example of inner contradictions in the propaganda machine that are simply ironed over to achieve the desired ends.

    He could go there and say that the religious should be separated from the government?
     
    Likely - this debate is actually alive and well within Iran and has been. The proponents of Vilayat-e-Faqih are currently ascendant:
    http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e2459?_hi=0&_pos=15

    This is a historic departure (relatively recent) from the majority of Shiah scholarship; most have taken the position that religious scholars only advise and assumption of sovereignty is in abeyance until the arrival of the Mahdi (ra). When Khomenei brought his ideas forth, they were denounced by many high-ranking Shiah scholars. To this day, major marja's (scholars of the highest rank in Shiah jurisprudence) simply do not accept the concept:
    "The conflict between Najaf and Tehran has become obvious as the two schools are fairly different - especially when it comes to the issue of wilayat al-faqih [the guardianship of the jurist]," said Abdul Wahhab al-Hussaini, a political analyst.
    "Najafi scholars do not believe in this concept at all, but Khamenei uses it to shore up his authority and influence in the region, especially in Iraq," he added.
    "Khamenei believes that his wilayat al-faqih authority extends to Iraq, while Sistani rejects such intervention, because the country has its own system of governance and the role of the religious authority [in Iraq] is strictly advisory."
    https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/politics/2015/11/10/shia-split-sistani-and-khamenei-clash-over-iraqs-future

    For a nice lecture on limits, demarcation, responsibilities and overlap between jurists and the government from a Sunni perspective see the following (doesn't cover everything, but it is quite good):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e403Hn3L9CU

    And, as always, I appreciate you keeping me on point - God bless.

    I read the two links. Unless I am missing something this is a split between an Iraqi and an Iranian. I want to see evidence of some sort of open discussion within Iran.

    Where does the school that you follow fall out with regards to wilayat al-faqih?

    1 hour and 17 minutes, come on, for that I must be promised the keys to the kingdom.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Dear iffen,

    Thanks for putting my feet to the fire on this one. I only have surface level knowledge, being a Sunni, but I looked a little deeper. The debate on Vilayat-e-Faqih is an active one yet between the various Shiah schools (and top level scholars - some of whom reside outside of Iraq and Iran [Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.]), but you are right, within Iran, it seems that denouncing it completely can lead to house arrest:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-grand-ayatollah-rohani-1246655.html

    One can see why Sistani and other Iraqi marjas are opposed to Vilayat-e-Faqih coming to their doorstep.

    It seems there is a vigorous (open) debate in Iran, yet it is regarding the details or mechanics of Vilayat-e-Faqih, not the concept in-toto. One ancillary note to keep in mind as an upshot to this discussion; as yet another lesson about blowback. This concept (in radical opposition to Shia juristic quietism for centuries) is a recent and reactionary one. It can well be argued that had Mossadegh not been deposed and the Shah (and his dreaded SAVAK) not been propped up upon the Irani people - our relationship with the inheritors of one of the most ancient civilizations would be on a different trajectory.


    Where does the school that you follow fall out with regards to wilayat al-faqih?
     
    Sunnis don't have this concept. In short, historically, our jurists have played the role found between advisers to a hybrid between the legislative/judicial (whether officially government sanctioned or not). This was fraught with dangers; all four founders of the existing schools of Sunni jurisprudence were jailed by the authorities. The founder of my school, Imam Abu Hanifa (ra), was jailed and tortured by the Abbasids for refusing the post of chief justice of the caliphate due to his wariness of being involved with corruption. Did you watch this clip, it is a good summary:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlyFl3hEHJQ

    The jurists were generally able to operate independently due to the institution of the waqf (independent endowments - kind of like universities run on). Unfortunately, the adoption of unfettered socialism by many of the Muslim countries (after their colonial independence) caused them to be swallowed up under government purview.

    My opinion; jurists (of sacred or secular law) should NOT run the country - they are jurists they are incapable of running a nation. It is akin to foisting Chief Justice Roberts as the ruler (combining all powers of government within him) and the rest of the Supreme Court as his guardian council.

    May God make us content with our proper place which brings the most benefit to society.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  107. poifhg says:

    How many of these in Mexico?

    http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2016/06/27/mexican-model-executed-front-family-border-state/

    Any -ism damages the quality of our reasoning, and Mexicanism does, too.

    It’s not about the life of people whose IQ is above 130 and the financial status of life that follows from it, they can be very safe in Mexico, just like everywhere (except, say, where a People’s Revolution takes place). It’s about objectivity.

    Mexico is one of the most perilous, crime-welling, countries in the world; criminality and violence rates go in parallel with (low) IQ, and an intelligent writer should always presume his readers to be intelligent too, regardless that that is not always the case: shouldn’t you Mr. Reed?

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  108. It’s a pretty long way from good K-12 scores to being able to do even basic algebra and simple logic to excel at today’s high-tech jobs.

    I guess that’s why those Mexicans that Fred loves so much are coming here, to displace software engineers!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  109. Talha says:
    @iffen
    I read the two links. Unless I am missing something this is a split between an Iraqi and an Iranian. I want to see evidence of some sort of open discussion within Iran.

    Where does the school that you follow fall out with regards to wilayat al-faqih?

    1 hour and 17 minutes, come on, for that I must be promised the keys to the kingdom.

    Dear iffen,

    Thanks for putting my feet to the fire on this one. I only have surface level knowledge, being a Sunni, but I looked a little deeper. The debate on Vilayat-e-Faqih is an active one yet between the various Shiah schools (and top level scholars – some of whom reside outside of Iraq and Iran [Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.]), but you are right, within Iran, it seems that denouncing it completely can lead to house arrest:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-grand-ayatollah-rohani-1246655.html

    One can see why Sistani and other Iraqi marjas are opposed to Vilayat-e-Faqih coming to their doorstep.

    It seems there is a vigorous (open) debate in Iran, yet it is regarding the details or mechanics of Vilayat-e-Faqih, not the concept in-toto. One ancillary note to keep in mind as an upshot to this discussion; as yet another lesson about blowback. This concept (in radical opposition to Shia juristic quietism for centuries) is a recent and reactionary one. It can well be argued that had Mossadegh not been deposed and the Shah (and his dreaded SAVAK) not been propped up upon the Irani people – our relationship with the inheritors of one of the most ancient civilizations would be on a different trajectory.

    Where does the school that you follow fall out with regards to wilayat al-faqih?

    Sunnis don’t have this concept. In short, historically, our jurists have played the role found between advisers to a hybrid between the legislative/judicial (whether officially government sanctioned or not). This was fraught with dangers; all four founders of the existing schools of Sunni jurisprudence were jailed by the authorities. The founder of my school, Imam Abu Hanifa (ra), was jailed and tortured by the Abbasids for refusing the post of chief justice of the caliphate due to his wariness of being involved with corruption. Did you watch this clip, it is a good summary:

    The jurists were generally able to operate independently due to the institution of the waqf (independent endowments – kind of like universities run on). Unfortunately, the adoption of unfettered socialism by many of the Muslim countries (after their colonial independence) caused them to be swallowed up under government purview.

    My opinion; jurists (of sacred or secular law) should NOT run the country – they are jurists they are incapable of running a nation. It is akin to foisting Chief Justice Roberts as the ruler (combining all powers of government within him) and the rest of the Supreme Court as his guardian council.

    May God make us content with our proper place which brings the most benefit to society.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Sunnis don’t have this concept.

    So if our country is overrun by Muslims we want them to be Sunni and not Shia? :-)

    I did watch the clip and I was very impressed with the speaker. I could sense the emotional pain and exasperation that he expressed when describing how so much death and destruction had derived from an incorrect translation of one word.

    As a general rule I agree that separation of power is a good thing. But that is just my traditional view. I remember a junior high history teacher (Middle School for you youngsters) telling me that we all think democracy is great, but, in fact, a benevolent dictatorship is likely the best way to go. I can’t imagine a public school teacher getting away with saying something like that these days.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  110. @Jus' Sayin'...
    Catholic schools and other schools in today's USA that perform well providing Negro children with an academically oriented education have one major advantage: they filter. They filter at admission because for the most part only committed Negro parents and children ever apply to these schools and they filter throughout the educational process because incorrigibly disruptive students will be expelled and hopelessly unintelligent students will be asked to leave or dropout. The students that remain are ones who can succeed in a rigorous academic environment.

    When analyzing the education of Negro students in this country one needs to start with two facts that have been demonstrated over and over and over again. The first is that on average Negroes are much less capable of academic success than Whites. Research consistently finds that the average IQ score of US Negroes is 1.1 standard deviations below the average score for US Whites. In practical terms this means that 85% of Negroes in this country have an aptitude for acacdemic work that is below the White average. Less than 5% of Negroes have an academic aptitude suitable for real college or university study. So somewhere around 85% of Negro students are going to have great difficulty with rigorous academic work at the high school level and only about one-third of these belong in college preparatory programs.

    The second fact, confirmed in numberless peer-reviewed research publications and daily crime statistics, is that Negroes are on average much less psychologically suited to academic work than Whites. They are much more prone to violent behavior, much less capable of long-term planning and impulse control. The data here are much less firm than for IQ but they certainly suggest that a large proportion of Negro students will not benefit from and will actively interfere with educational programs and policies that work well for other races.

    Negro children are as deserving of a good education as White children. But if we drop the "progressive" lefty propaganda this does not mean that all Negro children can benefit from or even deserve the same kind of education as White children. Once we recognize this we can start thinking about what different kinds of education might be appropriate for different kinds of children and how these might be implemented.

    Major problems will still remain. Some children and their parents will have to be discouraged from hopelessly unrealistic dreams. The ACLU and like organizations will have to live with the fact that iron discipline is the only way to educate some children for adult life. But first we need to address the biggest problem, the elephant in the living room, there are enormous racial differences in the capacity to benefit from an academic education.

    People often forget that a large spectrum of people referred to as “black” are in reality part white, including our President. The inexorable logic of evolution means that many of these successful blacks owe it to their white genes.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  111. iffen says:
    @Talha
    Dear iffen,

    Thanks for putting my feet to the fire on this one. I only have surface level knowledge, being a Sunni, but I looked a little deeper. The debate on Vilayat-e-Faqih is an active one yet between the various Shiah schools (and top level scholars - some of whom reside outside of Iraq and Iran [Pakistan, Afghanistan, etc.]), but you are right, within Iran, it seems that denouncing it completely can lead to house arrest:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-grand-ayatollah-rohani-1246655.html

    One can see why Sistani and other Iraqi marjas are opposed to Vilayat-e-Faqih coming to their doorstep.

    It seems there is a vigorous (open) debate in Iran, yet it is regarding the details or mechanics of Vilayat-e-Faqih, not the concept in-toto. One ancillary note to keep in mind as an upshot to this discussion; as yet another lesson about blowback. This concept (in radical opposition to Shia juristic quietism for centuries) is a recent and reactionary one. It can well be argued that had Mossadegh not been deposed and the Shah (and his dreaded SAVAK) not been propped up upon the Irani people - our relationship with the inheritors of one of the most ancient civilizations would be on a different trajectory.


    Where does the school that you follow fall out with regards to wilayat al-faqih?
     
    Sunnis don't have this concept. In short, historically, our jurists have played the role found between advisers to a hybrid between the legislative/judicial (whether officially government sanctioned or not). This was fraught with dangers; all four founders of the existing schools of Sunni jurisprudence were jailed by the authorities. The founder of my school, Imam Abu Hanifa (ra), was jailed and tortured by the Abbasids for refusing the post of chief justice of the caliphate due to his wariness of being involved with corruption. Did you watch this clip, it is a good summary:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlyFl3hEHJQ

    The jurists were generally able to operate independently due to the institution of the waqf (independent endowments - kind of like universities run on). Unfortunately, the adoption of unfettered socialism by many of the Muslim countries (after their colonial independence) caused them to be swallowed up under government purview.

    My opinion; jurists (of sacred or secular law) should NOT run the country - they are jurists they are incapable of running a nation. It is akin to foisting Chief Justice Roberts as the ruler (combining all powers of government within him) and the rest of the Supreme Court as his guardian council.

    May God make us content with our proper place which brings the most benefit to society.

    Sunnis don’t have this concept.

    So if our country is overrun by Muslims we want them to be Sunni and not Shia? :-)

    I did watch the clip and I was very impressed with the speaker. I could sense the emotional pain and exasperation that he expressed when describing how so much death and destruction had derived from an incorrect translation of one word.

    As a general rule I agree that separation of power is a good thing. But that is just my traditional view. I remember a junior high history teacher (Middle School for you youngsters) telling me that we all think democracy is great, but, in fact, a benevolent dictatorship is likely the best way to go. I can’t imagine a public school teacher getting away with saying something like that these days.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    So if our country is overrun by Muslims we want them to be Sunni and not Shia?
     
    If this country is overrun by Muslims, they will likely be your progeny :) - ain't no invading force (Muslim or not) that can conceivably militarily take over the US. My bias on the Sunni/Shia divide should be obvious by now. But Oliver Stone's son would disagree.

    I did watch the clip
     
    The second clip was the same speaker at the same venue, but talking about jurists vis-a-vis governments.

    a benevolent dictatorship is likely the best way to go
     
    A just monarchy (with legally defined limitations) has a lot of appeal (for instance, Bill Lind is a writer I highly respect):
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2006/08/william-s-lind/the-prussian-monarchy-stuff/
    I think the judicial apparatus should be separate from the executive (and be funded completely independent of the government where possible) - it just makes sense, otherwise it is co-opted and just becomes a branch of the executive which is highly problematic. Personally, I believe the separation of powers in the US (an evolution of Anglo-Saxon legal tradition) was and has been brilliant.

    Peace.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  112. Talha says:
    @iffen
    Sunnis don’t have this concept.

    So if our country is overrun by Muslims we want them to be Sunni and not Shia? :-)

    I did watch the clip and I was very impressed with the speaker. I could sense the emotional pain and exasperation that he expressed when describing how so much death and destruction had derived from an incorrect translation of one word.

    As a general rule I agree that separation of power is a good thing. But that is just my traditional view. I remember a junior high history teacher (Middle School for you youngsters) telling me that we all think democracy is great, but, in fact, a benevolent dictatorship is likely the best way to go. I can’t imagine a public school teacher getting away with saying something like that these days.

    Hey iffen,

    So if our country is overrun by Muslims we want them to be Sunni and not Shia?

    If this country is overrun by Muslims, they will likely be your progeny :) – ain’t no invading force (Muslim or not) that can conceivably militarily take over the US. My bias on the Sunni/Shia divide should be obvious by now. But Oliver Stone’s son would disagree.

    I did watch the clip

    The second clip was the same speaker at the same venue, but talking about jurists vis-a-vis governments.

    a benevolent dictatorship is likely the best way to go

    A just monarchy (with legally defined limitations) has a lot of appeal (for instance, Bill Lind is a writer I highly respect):

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2006/08/william-s-lind/the-prussian-monarchy-stuff/

    I think the judicial apparatus should be separate from the executive (and be funded completely independent of the government where possible) – it just makes sense, otherwise it is co-opted and just becomes a branch of the executive which is highly problematic. Personally, I believe the separation of powers in the US (an evolution of Anglo-Saxon legal tradition) was and has been brilliant.

    Peace.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  113. YIH says:

    ”unprovable”
    ”that blacks are incapable of competing with whites.”
    ”Evidence of this appears periodically, as, for example, in the results of a competency test given to applicants for teaching positions in Pinellas County, Florida (which includes St. Petersburg and Clearwater), cited in Time, June 16, 1980. To pass this grueling examination, an applicant had to be able to read at the tenth-grade level and do arithmetic at the eighth-grade level. Though they all held B.A.’s, 25 percent of the whites and 79 percent of the blacks failed. Similar statistics exist for other places.”
    Uhh, OK.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  114. Ace says:
    @Talha
    Hey mtncur,

    No problem, any good character in me should rightly be attributed to the efforts and prayers of my parents and teachers.

    As far as the people of the Bible-belt, unfortunately they are being duped and this is by design. Wars need hostility to keep them going and there is a cottage industry of self-proclaimed experts, fake ex-Muslims, ignorant preachers, etc. that are making money hand-over-fist by whipping up this frenzy. I remember similar sentiments during the Cold-War when I was growing up in California, we thought Russians were beasts, barely human. We drank the Hollywood koolaid. For instance, Fox has invited - multiple times - people like Anjem Choudary and called him 'Imam' in their interviews even though he has zero qualifications to speak on the subject of Islamic law, give fatwas, etc. But, hopefully, cooler heads will prevail; the Southern folks are known for their cordial manners and hospitality, a very laudable set of traits that I hope God preserves in them from the vicissitudes of the times.

    May God preserve and honor you (and your well-behaved dogs!).

    ** Russians were beasts **

    The ones who shot MAJ Nicholson like a dog were. And who staffed the CHEKA, NKVD and SMERSH. And those who conducted The Red Terror and Holodomor.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Sure Ace, I won't disagree with that but now I work with a bunch of old ladies who are expatriates from Russia and they are wonderful people. I don't worry that they are making designs to eat my children as I was taught to believe when I was younger.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  115. Ace says:
    @pyrrhus
    I don't think there's any argument with what many people have observed, including Walter Williams, and even myself at a much later period, which is that black students, and all students, do far better in a disciplined, structured school than otherwise. The objections are just liberal Teachers' Union BS....Nor is there any doubt that the average intelligent difference between black kids and white kids is and always has been about 1 standard deviation. But for the 1/6 of black kids who are as intelligent or more intelligent than average white kids, the difference in opportunity opened up by good schools is enormous....

    And the white kids paid an astronomically high price for having to endure the 5/6ths.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  116. Ace says:
    @KenH
    Another important point is that educational achievement is generally discouraged in the black community since that is "selling out", "acting white" and is liable to get a person labeled with the pejorative "Uncle Tom". At the end of the day only blacks can help and save blacks and the prospects of that ever happening look pretty grim. There is a great deal of peer pressure to be a gangsta, thug and criminal since breaking the white man's laws is a badge of honor.

    After all the hate, violence and disrespect whites have had to endure post 1965 including the disruption of their lives, workplaces and communities by blacks, I don't care whether they get their act together or not since even the educated blacks harbor a degree of animus towards white people.

    Racial integration has been an epic failure.

    In the 1980s the WSJ had a great story about a highly, highly motivated black high school student in the DC schools who desperately wanted to get into an MIT summer program. He went straight home each day and hit the books. It appears he was the only one in the entire school and he definitely got pressured by his peers with that “thinking white” nonsense. I’m sure the principal was unaware of such attitudes.

    Amen on the animus and epic failure points.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  117. Ace says:
    @Talha
    Hey Zato-Ichi,

    I've been down this road before with others...so here goes...

    Orthodox Islam regards Sufism, as well as the B’hai’s as heretical and apostates
     
    B'hais aren't apostates - they are not Muslim. Apostasy is an action - you must be Muslim in the first place too commit it, maybe their first generation committed it, subsequent people are simply born into a non-Muslim faith. Sufism is heretical? In toto? Says who - the Wahhabis? Sorry, but Orthodox Sunni Islam was doing just fine for the 12 centuries before they came on the map. I suggest a reading into men like Imams Ghazali, Sirhindi, Ibn Ata Illah (may God raise their ranks) to broaden one's knowledge on the subject.

    Also, no legitimate faith system allows its aberrations or heretical strains to define itself.
     
    Correct, and yet you are defining Islam though a Wahabbi/Salafist lens...those being aberrations from the normative voice for over 13 centuries.

    The fact that you appear to be pushing that what the vast majority of world Islam considered and continues to consider to be heretical
     
    The fact that you assume the vast majority of the Muslim world (including its scholarship at the top levels) considered and considers Sufism to be heretical bespeaks of a lack of knowledge on the subject matter. Please see my above suggestion.

    namely, ask reputable imams from either the Sunni or the Shi’ite tradition
     
    You mean like the current and former Grand Mufti of Pakistan who happen to be Sufis? Or the former Grand Mufti of al-Azhar, who was likewise? Or the last Grand Mufti of Mecca and Madinah during the Ottoman times?

    Orthodox Islam doesn’t allow what it considers to be heretical strains to define the faith
     
    Correct, that is the lexical meaning of 'orthodox' is it not?

    As far as Mr. Russell, I'm not ignorant of who he was; and I indeed laud his efforts to have a world rid of nuclear weapons. You forgot to mention historian. I'm simply stating that I consider his opinion to be lower than men like Thoreau or Emerson on this subject. They having actually read the works of the Persian Sufis and referenced them in their works.

    What is interesting is what you quoted from him about Islam; that it is "practical, social"... where I come from, those are generally not pejoratives - features, not bugs. Perhaps a religion stands higher in his regard if it is impractical and anti-social?

    But as far as him calling it as "unspiritual" as Communism; no, I stand by my statement. If he disregarded Sufism in his calculation, he was shockingly ignorant of it, especially when making claims to be a philosopher. How can one brush off the contributions to metaphysics of the entire Persian culture?

    A modest prediction; centuries down the road, Russell's name will be forgotten other than as footnotes in academic works and thesis arguments. The poetry and letters of men like Attar, Rumi, Ibn Arabi, Sirhindi, Jami', etc. (may God elevate their ranks) will continue to inspire hearts and their graves will continue to be visited.

    Peace.

    Baha’is – and everyone – appear to be born Muslim according to this:

    http://islam101.com/dawah/newBorn.htm

    I don’t know if the Musselmenschen math that out to mean that kids raised away from Islam are thus apostates but, given that they can start with a woman’s being raped and somehow reach the idea that she’s guilty of adultery, I’m betting on apostasy. Such is Islamic “logic.”

    The notables you mention do suggest otherwise, I confess.

    Plus, I’ve read that Sufis are just as violent as the rest of them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Ace,

    You are free to define apostasy as you like, but it doesn't jive with anything I've come across. The concept you allude to is the Muslim understanding that there is no 'original sin'; all children are born innocent and upon the innate primordial religion (monotheism). This was expounded upon, in fictional form, by the Andalusian polymath scholar Ibn Tufayl (ra) in his story of Hayy ibn Yaqzan:
    http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/I/bo8324782.html

    Known better in Western philosophy circles as 'Philosophus Autodidactus':
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/20836915?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    Has nothing to do with the rules of apostasy. Likewise on the rape thing, I'm sure you have a source for this from somewhere, but I doubt its from any legitimate scholarly work from either the medieval scholars or those of today.


    Plus, I’ve read that Sufis are just as violent as the rest of them.
     
    'Just as' - not quite; I eagerly await any citations you can bring regarding Sufi suicide-bombers of European cafes or Sufis stabbing random subway commuters. But, I will agree, if one sends young armed men to their shores, Sufis will more than oblige by sending them back in body bags; again, this is a feature, not a bug.

    Peace.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  118. Talha says:
    @Ace
    ** Russians were beasts **

    The ones who shot MAJ Nicholson like a dog were. And who staffed the CHEKA, NKVD and SMERSH. And those who conducted The Red Terror and Holodomor.

    Sure Ace, I won’t disagree with that but now I work with a bunch of old ladies who are expatriates from Russia and they are wonderful people. I don’t worry that they are making designs to eat my children as I was taught to believe when I was younger.

    Peace.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  119. Talha says:
    @Ace
    Baha'is - and everyone - appear to be born Muslim according to this:

    http://islam101.com/dawah/newBorn.htm

    I don't know if the Musselmenschen math that out to mean that kids raised away from Islam are thus apostates but, given that they can start with a woman's being raped and somehow reach the idea that she's guilty of adultery, I'm betting on apostasy. Such is Islamic "logic."

    The notables you mention do suggest otherwise, I confess.

    Plus, I've read that Sufis are just as violent as the rest of them.

    Hey Ace,

    You are free to define apostasy as you like, but it doesn’t jive with anything I’ve come across. The concept you allude to is the Muslim understanding that there is no ‘original sin’; all children are born innocent and upon the innate primordial religion (monotheism). This was expounded upon, in fictional form, by the Andalusian polymath scholar Ibn Tufayl (ra) in his story of Hayy ibn Yaqzan:

    http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/I/bo8324782.html

    Known better in Western philosophy circles as ‘Philosophus Autodidactus’:

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/20836915?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    Has nothing to do with the rules of apostasy. Likewise on the rape thing, I’m sure you have a source for this from somewhere, but I doubt its from any legitimate scholarly work from either the medieval scholars or those of today.

    Plus, I’ve read that Sufis are just as violent as the rest of them.

    ‘Just as’ – not quite; I eagerly await any citations you can bring regarding Sufi suicide-bombers of European cafes or Sufis stabbing random subway commuters. But, I will agree, if one sends young armed men to their shores, Sufis will more than oblige by sending them back in body bags; again, this is a feature, not a bug.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ace
    I did not define apostasy but provided a link that indicates that children are "born upon Fitrah." This has nothing to do with something like "original sin" as the quote in the link makes clear:

    "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray" ~ Allah. If you have original sin you have it right off the bat. The quote indicates that the problem arises when Allah's servants "go astray," that is, enter into a state of error due to the influence of parents. It's a subsequent development.

    I didn't say anything about apostasy but merely stated I didn't know what Muslim thinkers make of this state of going astray. The last paragraph does indicate that Allah doesn't hold the person who's gone "astray" to account so it appears you're right that later generations are not considered apostates, even though they are considered to be Muslims. Children "are born on the religion of their nature, i.e., Islam." Same link.

    The Islamic geniuses in Qatar were the ones pushing for the adultery charge in this case. If that isn't state-of-the-art Muslim scholarship I don't know where you go to find it. Please leave that "legitimate scholarly work" idea at home on this point.

    From the abstract of Salafi Violence and Sufi Tolerance? Rethinking Conventional Wisdom:


    Some violent groups are Sufi and others Salafi, while some non-violent groups are Salafi, others Sufi. Policy makers are therefore ill-advised to use theological orientation as a factor in assessing the violent potential of Muslim movements and organisations.
     
    They don't, however, seem to be involved in bombings, head choppings, and the like beloved of the Salafists. Sufis are more likely to be the targets of those swine I see.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  120. Ace says:
    @Talha
    Hey Ace,

    You are free to define apostasy as you like, but it doesn't jive with anything I've come across. The concept you allude to is the Muslim understanding that there is no 'original sin'; all children are born innocent and upon the innate primordial religion (monotheism). This was expounded upon, in fictional form, by the Andalusian polymath scholar Ibn Tufayl (ra) in his story of Hayy ibn Yaqzan:
    http://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/I/bo8324782.html

    Known better in Western philosophy circles as 'Philosophus Autodidactus':
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/20836915?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    Has nothing to do with the rules of apostasy. Likewise on the rape thing, I'm sure you have a source for this from somewhere, but I doubt its from any legitimate scholarly work from either the medieval scholars or those of today.


    Plus, I’ve read that Sufis are just as violent as the rest of them.
     
    'Just as' - not quite; I eagerly await any citations you can bring regarding Sufi suicide-bombers of European cafes or Sufis stabbing random subway commuters. But, I will agree, if one sends young armed men to their shores, Sufis will more than oblige by sending them back in body bags; again, this is a feature, not a bug.

    Peace.

    I did not define apostasy but provided a link that indicates that children are “born upon Fitrah.” This has nothing to do with something like “original sin” as the quote in the link makes clear:

    “I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray” ~ Allah. If you have original sin you have it right off the bat. The quote indicates that the problem arises when Allah’s servants “go astray,” that is, enter into a state of error due to the influence of parents. It’s a subsequent development.

    I didn’t say anything about apostasy but merely stated I didn’t know what Muslim thinkers make of this state of going astray. The last paragraph does indicate that Allah doesn’t hold the person who’s gone “astray” to account so it appears you’re right that later generations are not considered apostates, even though they are considered to be Muslims. Children “are born on the religion of their nature, i.e., Islam.” Same link.

    The Islamic geniuses in Qatar were the ones pushing for the adultery charge in this case. If that isn’t state-of-the-art Muslim scholarship I don’t know where you go to find it. Please leave that “legitimate scholarly work” idea at home on this point.

    From the abstract of Salafi Violence and Sufi Tolerance? Rethinking Conventional Wisdom:

    Some violent groups are Sufi and others Salafi, while some non-violent groups are Salafi, others Sufi. Policy makers are therefore ill-advised to use theological orientation as a factor in assessing the violent potential of Muslim movements and organisations.

    They don’t, however, seem to be involved in bombings, head choppings, and the like beloved of the Salafists. Sufis are more likely to be the targets of those swine I see.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Ace,

    This has nothing to do with something like “original sin”
     
    It does, but you are not making the connection since that article is your only point of reference.

    Read the article, sorry, maybe I'm a bit jaded by all the false accusations of rape that are flying all over the place these days to take that woman's word as final on the case. She says one thing, guy says another thing. I'm not saying it didn't happen that way - God knows best - I'm just saying, based on what I read in that article, you might not get very far in prosecuting rape even in a Western country. And it's not even clear Muslim scholars were involved in the process or how the civil law works in Qatar. I do know what I've read in the medieval texts that refutes the notion that a woman can be punished for being raped and I know what one of the former Muftis of Pakistan wrote on the subject (dealing with the change in Pakistan to the hudood law):
    "In one hadith, Sayyidna Wail bin Hajr (ra), narrates that during the time of the Prophet (pbuh) a woman had gone out to offer the prayer. On the way a man overcame and raped her. The woman cried for help and the man ran away. Thereafter the man admitted that he had raped her. The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) then inflicted the hadd on the man only, and not on the woman.
    Imam Tirmidhi (ra) related this Hadith in his Jami’ with two different chains of transmission, and he declared the second chain of transmission as reliable. (Jami Tirmidhi, Kitabul Hudood, Bab 22, Hadith Number 1453, 1454)
    Similarly, in Sahih Bukhari there is a hadith according to which a slave had raped a slave-girl. Sayyidina Umar (ra) then imposed the hadd on the slave, but not on the slave-girl. (See Sahih Bukhari, Kitabul Ikrah, Bab 6)
    It is hence firmly established from the Holy Qur'an, the Sunnah, and the decisions of the rightly guided caliphs (ra), that the same punishment is to be awarded for both adultery and rape and that in the case of rape, only the man is punished."
    http://www.albalagh.net/women/0096.shtml

    As far as the Sufi stuff, thanks for that article. I was quite aware of the Sufi orders in West Africa establishing the Sokoto Caliphate and the like - not surprised by that at all - establishing Islamic sovereignty by acceptable means within the legal tradition is par for the course; previous to our current international framework, it was just as acceptable for The Shehu (Dan Fodio) to establish a state by military means as it was for the Tzar to expand his territory into Persia, Caucasus and Ottoman lands. The Shehu was a Maliki scholar in his own right. I was a bit surprised by what is happening in Indonesia/Malaysia. Armed insurrection against a Muslim government and vigilantism is not normal operating procedure for Sufis, but every group has their quirks. The Madhi in Sudan (19th century) was also a very quirky Sufi movement. I tend to notice this happens if some Sufi orders are not also held in check by the juristic framework - weird syncretic practices and deviations arise - note that the Mahdi of Sudan was criticized by the scholars of his time.
    The article you linked states; "Today, Banser, NU’s paramilitary wing, is used to support pluralist policies. It has been deployed to provide security for Christmas services and NU Sufi religious celebrations threatened by violent Salafi groups."
    You won't see Salafis doing that very often. See the link I mentioned about Emir Abdul Qadir of Algeria; he saw nothing contradictory about fighting French soldiers and later providing sanctuary to Christians victims of a Muslim and Druze run pogrom.

    Peace.

    , @Talha
    I see the issue, this is what I stated:
    The concept you allude to is the Muslim understanding that there is NO ‘original sin’...

    Maybe you misread it.

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  121. Talha says:
    @Ace
    I did not define apostasy but provided a link that indicates that children are "born upon Fitrah." This has nothing to do with something like "original sin" as the quote in the link makes clear:

    "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray" ~ Allah. If you have original sin you have it right off the bat. The quote indicates that the problem arises when Allah's servants "go astray," that is, enter into a state of error due to the influence of parents. It's a subsequent development.

    I didn't say anything about apostasy but merely stated I didn't know what Muslim thinkers make of this state of going astray. The last paragraph does indicate that Allah doesn't hold the person who's gone "astray" to account so it appears you're right that later generations are not considered apostates, even though they are considered to be Muslims. Children "are born on the religion of their nature, i.e., Islam." Same link.

    The Islamic geniuses in Qatar were the ones pushing for the adultery charge in this case. If that isn't state-of-the-art Muslim scholarship I don't know where you go to find it. Please leave that "legitimate scholarly work" idea at home on this point.

    From the abstract of Salafi Violence and Sufi Tolerance? Rethinking Conventional Wisdom:


    Some violent groups are Sufi and others Salafi, while some non-violent groups are Salafi, others Sufi. Policy makers are therefore ill-advised to use theological orientation as a factor in assessing the violent potential of Muslim movements and organisations.
     
    They don't, however, seem to be involved in bombings, head choppings, and the like beloved of the Salafists. Sufis are more likely to be the targets of those swine I see.

    Hey Ace,

    This has nothing to do with something like “original sin”

    It does, but you are not making the connection since that article is your only point of reference.

    Read the article, sorry, maybe I’m a bit jaded by all the false accusations of rape that are flying all over the place these days to take that woman’s word as final on the case. She says one thing, guy says another thing. I’m not saying it didn’t happen that way – God knows best – I’m just saying, based on what I read in that article, you might not get very far in prosecuting rape even in a Western country. And it’s not even clear Muslim scholars were involved in the process or how the civil law works in Qatar. I do know what I’ve read in the medieval texts that refutes the notion that a woman can be punished for being raped and I know what one of the former Muftis of Pakistan wrote on the subject (dealing with the change in Pakistan to the hudood law):
    “In one hadith, Sayyidna Wail bin Hajr (ra), narrates that during the time of the Prophet (pbuh) a woman had gone out to offer the prayer. On the way a man overcame and raped her. The woman cried for help and the man ran away. Thereafter the man admitted that he had raped her. The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) then inflicted the hadd on the man only, and not on the woman.
    Imam Tirmidhi (ra) related this Hadith in his Jami’ with two different chains of transmission, and he declared the second chain of transmission as reliable. (Jami Tirmidhi, Kitabul Hudood, Bab 22, Hadith Number 1453, 1454)
    Similarly, in Sahih Bukhari there is a hadith according to which a slave had raped a slave-girl. Sayyidina Umar (ra) then imposed the hadd on the slave, but not on the slave-girl. (See Sahih Bukhari, Kitabul Ikrah, Bab 6)
    It is hence firmly established from the Holy Qur’an, the Sunnah, and the decisions of the rightly guided caliphs (ra), that the same punishment is to be awarded for both adultery and rape and that in the case of rape, only the man is punished.”

    http://www.albalagh.net/women/0096.shtml

    As far as the Sufi stuff, thanks for that article. I was quite aware of the Sufi orders in West Africa establishing the Sokoto Caliphate and the like – not surprised by that at all – establishing Islamic sovereignty by acceptable means within the legal tradition is par for the course; previous to our current international framework, it was just as acceptable for The Shehu (Dan Fodio) to establish a state by military means as it was for the Tzar to expand his territory into Persia, Caucasus and Ottoman lands. The Shehu was a Maliki scholar in his own right. I was a bit surprised by what is happening in Indonesia/Malaysia. Armed insurrection against a Muslim government and vigilantism is not normal operating procedure for Sufis, but every group has their quirks. The Madhi in Sudan (19th century) was also a very quirky Sufi movement. I tend to notice this happens if some Sufi orders are not also held in check by the juristic framework – weird syncretic practices and deviations arise – note that the Mahdi of Sudan was criticized by the scholars of his time.
    The article you linked states; “Today, Banser, NU’s paramilitary wing, is used to support pluralist policies. It has been deployed to provide security for Christmas services and NU Sufi religious celebrations threatened by violent Salafi groups.”
    You won’t see Salafis doing that very often. See the link I mentioned about Emir Abdul Qadir of Algeria; he saw nothing contradictory about fighting French soldiers and later providing sanctuary to Christians victims of a Muslim and Druze run pogrom.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    And of course - as if to put a stamp in blood on this whole discussion, these miserable people planned and launched an attack on an airport in a Muslim city with the full knowledge that the vast majority of their casualties would be Muslim - all in the last 10 days of Ramadan.

    The great medieval exegete Ibn Kathir (ra) had their number exactly when he said, “If the Kharijites ever gained power, they would corrupt the entire land, Iraq and Syria. They would not leave a boy or a girl or a man or a woman, for in their view the people have become so corrupt that they cannot be reformed except by mass killing.”

    I hope Turkey does a complete about face on current policy.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  122. Talha says:
    @Ace
    I did not define apostasy but provided a link that indicates that children are "born upon Fitrah." This has nothing to do with something like "original sin" as the quote in the link makes clear:

    "I created my servants in the right religion but devils made them go astray" ~ Allah. If you have original sin you have it right off the bat. The quote indicates that the problem arises when Allah's servants "go astray," that is, enter into a state of error due to the influence of parents. It's a subsequent development.

    I didn't say anything about apostasy but merely stated I didn't know what Muslim thinkers make of this state of going astray. The last paragraph does indicate that Allah doesn't hold the person who's gone "astray" to account so it appears you're right that later generations are not considered apostates, even though they are considered to be Muslims. Children "are born on the religion of their nature, i.e., Islam." Same link.

    The Islamic geniuses in Qatar were the ones pushing for the adultery charge in this case. If that isn't state-of-the-art Muslim scholarship I don't know where you go to find it. Please leave that "legitimate scholarly work" idea at home on this point.

    From the abstract of Salafi Violence and Sufi Tolerance? Rethinking Conventional Wisdom:


    Some violent groups are Sufi and others Salafi, while some non-violent groups are Salafi, others Sufi. Policy makers are therefore ill-advised to use theological orientation as a factor in assessing the violent potential of Muslim movements and organisations.
     
    They don't, however, seem to be involved in bombings, head choppings, and the like beloved of the Salafists. Sufis are more likely to be the targets of those swine I see.

    I see the issue, this is what I stated:
    The concept you allude to is the Muslim understanding that there is NO ‘original sin’…

    Maybe you misread it.

    Peace.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  123. But Jim

    ….when there is inequity within a societal structure, this is the result. Add the theft of natural resources, the miseducation and refusal to educate the children of mestizaje (the mixed blood element-the majority) the outcome is as reported. When those who control the social and the educational door of the society, people (los de abajo) resort to levels of violence based on their innate capacity of the social milieu to tolerate or even destroy (Guatemala and Reagan, check it out, or the present Iguala (Mexico killing of unarmed students!) and then you wonder why when the people rise up, they destroy anything in their path to justice to pay back the schemes of their overlords. It is obvious that the top of the social stratum in Latin America are those with access to education, social movement, etc to advance their own agendas, while the indigenous, the darker mestizos and other variations of mixtures suffer until they can no more then they move to USA to seek their dreams, aspirations and goals.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  124. @Florida Observor
    Fred has managed to build a case for equality based upon inadequate samples and tons of wishful thinking. Over 100 years of IQ testing form the basis for the general belief in racial IQ differences of considerable significance. Walter Williams may recall high black competence but in New Jersey in the forties, where I attended school, blacks were uniformly placed in vocational curricula. They did not prepare for college because few if any educators believed they could compete with whites. Such a belief exists today only among underground intellectuals sharing ideas at blogs that violate the Leftist prison that was once a free and open America. In other words the power of cultural Marxism and its control of academia, the media, and our basic institutions have created a corrupt social order that deifies blacks and excuses their errors and defects. Artificial promotion, false awards, and a vast stream of Leftist propaganda advertise a new age of "people of color" who will dispossess the European founders and their descendants.

    Alas, Earlier American education worked supremely well because smarter whites easily adjust to rigorous studies. Real meritocracies expose children to failure and humility, realities that progressive educators truly hate. The Left's PC wonderland harms many innocent whites today as "people of color" are favored at every turn. Criticism is not an option in the sanctuaries of the Left. Now we must pretend that blacks and whites have equal tendencies toward criminality, athleticism, and intelligence. Real differences must be disguised and lied about. Fred needs to do his homework on the history of IQ testing to get a handle on a problem with no happy solution for egalitarians.

    Fred Reed is making no claims about the equality of the races. He is making the claim that most blacks are capable of learning standard English and how to read, and that our catastrophic educational policies are at least as responsible as IQ differences in causing so many blacks to fail to learn those things. I think Fred Reed is right.

    Fix all the problems and we’d have a lot more literate blacks capable of doing jobs that today nobody would hire them for unless forced by the EEOC. But we’d still have more Jewish physicists than black ones.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  125. Talha says:
    @Talha
    Hey Ace,

    This has nothing to do with something like “original sin”
     
    It does, but you are not making the connection since that article is your only point of reference.

    Read the article, sorry, maybe I'm a bit jaded by all the false accusations of rape that are flying all over the place these days to take that woman's word as final on the case. She says one thing, guy says another thing. I'm not saying it didn't happen that way - God knows best - I'm just saying, based on what I read in that article, you might not get very far in prosecuting rape even in a Western country. And it's not even clear Muslim scholars were involved in the process or how the civil law works in Qatar. I do know what I've read in the medieval texts that refutes the notion that a woman can be punished for being raped and I know what one of the former Muftis of Pakistan wrote on the subject (dealing with the change in Pakistan to the hudood law):
    "In one hadith, Sayyidna Wail bin Hajr (ra), narrates that during the time of the Prophet (pbuh) a woman had gone out to offer the prayer. On the way a man overcame and raped her. The woman cried for help and the man ran away. Thereafter the man admitted that he had raped her. The Messenger of Allah (pbuh) then inflicted the hadd on the man only, and not on the woman.
    Imam Tirmidhi (ra) related this Hadith in his Jami’ with two different chains of transmission, and he declared the second chain of transmission as reliable. (Jami Tirmidhi, Kitabul Hudood, Bab 22, Hadith Number 1453, 1454)
    Similarly, in Sahih Bukhari there is a hadith according to which a slave had raped a slave-girl. Sayyidina Umar (ra) then imposed the hadd on the slave, but not on the slave-girl. (See Sahih Bukhari, Kitabul Ikrah, Bab 6)
    It is hence firmly established from the Holy Qur'an, the Sunnah, and the decisions of the rightly guided caliphs (ra), that the same punishment is to be awarded for both adultery and rape and that in the case of rape, only the man is punished."
    http://www.albalagh.net/women/0096.shtml

    As far as the Sufi stuff, thanks for that article. I was quite aware of the Sufi orders in West Africa establishing the Sokoto Caliphate and the like - not surprised by that at all - establishing Islamic sovereignty by acceptable means within the legal tradition is par for the course; previous to our current international framework, it was just as acceptable for The Shehu (Dan Fodio) to establish a state by military means as it was for the Tzar to expand his territory into Persia, Caucasus and Ottoman lands. The Shehu was a Maliki scholar in his own right. I was a bit surprised by what is happening in Indonesia/Malaysia. Armed insurrection against a Muslim government and vigilantism is not normal operating procedure for Sufis, but every group has their quirks. The Madhi in Sudan (19th century) was also a very quirky Sufi movement. I tend to notice this happens if some Sufi orders are not also held in check by the juristic framework - weird syncretic practices and deviations arise - note that the Mahdi of Sudan was criticized by the scholars of his time.
    The article you linked states; "Today, Banser, NU’s paramilitary wing, is used to support pluralist policies. It has been deployed to provide security for Christmas services and NU Sufi religious celebrations threatened by violent Salafi groups."
    You won't see Salafis doing that very often. See the link I mentioned about Emir Abdul Qadir of Algeria; he saw nothing contradictory about fighting French soldiers and later providing sanctuary to Christians victims of a Muslim and Druze run pogrom.

    Peace.

    And of course – as if to put a stamp in blood on this whole discussion, these miserable people planned and launched an attack on an airport in a Muslim city with the full knowledge that the vast majority of their casualties would be Muslim – all in the last 10 days of Ramadan.

    The great medieval exegete Ibn Kathir (ra) had their number exactly when he said, “If the Kharijites ever gained power, they would corrupt the entire land, Iraq and Syria. They would not leave a boy or a girl or a man or a woman, for in their view the people have become so corrupt that they cannot be reformed except by mass killing.”

    I hope Turkey does a complete about face on current policy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Hey Talha,

    I went to Wiki for info on Kharijites and found the following:

    A narration attributed to Abu Sa‘id al-Khudri [16][17] reports:

    "There will come a people from the east who recite the Quran but it will not go beyond their throats. They will pass through the religion just as an arrow pierces its target and they will not return to it just as the arrow does not return to the bow."

    This is absolutely delightful, some of your peeps definitely have a way with the words.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  126. iffen says:
    @Talha
    And of course - as if to put a stamp in blood on this whole discussion, these miserable people planned and launched an attack on an airport in a Muslim city with the full knowledge that the vast majority of their casualties would be Muslim - all in the last 10 days of Ramadan.

    The great medieval exegete Ibn Kathir (ra) had their number exactly when he said, “If the Kharijites ever gained power, they would corrupt the entire land, Iraq and Syria. They would not leave a boy or a girl or a man or a woman, for in their view the people have become so corrupt that they cannot be reformed except by mass killing.”

    I hope Turkey does a complete about face on current policy.

    Hey Talha,

    I went to Wiki for info on Kharijites and found the following:

    A narration attributed to Abu Sa‘id al-Khudri [16][17] reports:

    “There will come a people from the east who recite the Quran but it will not go beyond their throats. They will pass through the religion just as an arrow pierces its target and they will not return to it just as the arrow does not return to the bow.”

    This is absolutely delightful, some of your peeps definitely have a way with the words.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Yeah iffen,

    That's actually a hadith (or a variant of it) - so yeah that was from the head of our peeps!

    These fanatics are a danger to us all - I honestly cannot figure them out. I saw a picture from the attack, on the ground was an elderly looking Muslim woman (full hijab) lying dead with blood stains all around her body. It's like they run on hate...of everything other than themselves...they were so fanatical that they killed the Ali (ra), the cousin of the Prophet (pbuh) - it's crazy...

    This is a scholar from Iraq describing how they hunted down 300 Muslim scholars and imams when they first took over:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7a_GNX_ZKE

    Peace.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  127. Talha says:
    @iffen
    Hey Talha,

    I went to Wiki for info on Kharijites and found the following:

    A narration attributed to Abu Sa‘id al-Khudri [16][17] reports:

    "There will come a people from the east who recite the Quran but it will not go beyond their throats. They will pass through the religion just as an arrow pierces its target and they will not return to it just as the arrow does not return to the bow."

    This is absolutely delightful, some of your peeps definitely have a way with the words.

    Yeah iffen,

    That’s actually a hadith (or a variant of it) – so yeah that was from the head of our peeps!

    These fanatics are a danger to us all – I honestly cannot figure them out. I saw a picture from the attack, on the ground was an elderly looking Muslim woman (full hijab) lying dead with blood stains all around her body. It’s like they run on hate…of everything other than themselves…they were so fanatical that they killed the Ali (ra), the cousin of the Prophet (pbuh) – it’s crazy…

    This is a scholar from Iraq describing how they hunted down 300 Muslim scholars and imams when they first took over:

    Peace.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  128. @BigRedEyeOfJupiter
    Only half of potential high school students completed high school in the 1930s...Also, the demographics were vastly different than what we have today.

    High school was much more difficult back then.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  129. The ‘tales’ of the Quran reflect the poetry and the ‘absolute’ of how Islam should be adjudicated! upon the evil, the bad, the rapist, etc but the reality is that Sharia has become a tool of oppression to control and subjugate those who do not follow the edicts of the patriarchy that Islam has become to the detriment of those who are not part of it.

    The nobility is the written word to hear and judge the beauty of Arabic but beyond that, its words are hollow to the believers. Let us acknowledge that there are those who are just and wise within the fold but as part of a day to day guideline for life in the Arab world and the Middle East, Islam is a destroyer of peoples and nations based on the present behaviour and actions of their dictators and evil doers.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  130. @Florida Observor
    Fred has managed to build a case for equality based upon inadequate samples and tons of wishful thinking. Over 100 years of IQ testing form the basis for the general belief in racial IQ differences of considerable significance. Walter Williams may recall high black competence but in New Jersey in the forties, where I attended school, blacks were uniformly placed in vocational curricula. They did not prepare for college because few if any educators believed they could compete with whites. Such a belief exists today only among underground intellectuals sharing ideas at blogs that violate the Leftist prison that was once a free and open America. In other words the power of cultural Marxism and its control of academia, the media, and our basic institutions have created a corrupt social order that deifies blacks and excuses their errors and defects. Artificial promotion, false awards, and a vast stream of Leftist propaganda advertise a new age of "people of color" who will dispossess the European founders and their descendants.

    Alas, Earlier American education worked supremely well because smarter whites easily adjust to rigorous studies. Real meritocracies expose children to failure and humility, realities that progressive educators truly hate. The Left's PC wonderland harms many innocent whites today as "people of color" are favored at every turn. Criticism is not an option in the sanctuaries of the Left. Now we must pretend that blacks and whites have equal tendencies toward criminality, athleticism, and intelligence. Real differences must be disguised and lied about. Fred needs to do his homework on the history of IQ testing to get a handle on a problem with no happy solution for egalitarians.

    The real issue here is whatever their natural abilities, the students have done worse in the public school system. It was already so bad in my home town in the 70s that not only African Baptist or A.M.E. parents sent their kids to parochial schools, but also a number of Jewish parents. Whether it’s the discipline, the emphasis on direct instruction and drills as opposed to the “meaningful activities” beloved of progressive educators, or a combination of the two, the kids in Catholic schools do better in both learning and behavior.
    I’m guessing it’s connected to the fact that parochial teachers have usually majored in Math, not Math Education, or English, not Language Arts Education, but some places like NY Board of Regents have tried to do an end-run around this well-known phenomenon by requiring private school teachers to take a certain number of Education credits. If they can’t corrupt you, or you can’t keep a straight face long enough to get those credits, they can weed you out and plant their own Pod People in the private schools.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
Current Commenter says:

Leave a Reply - Comments on articles more than two weeks old will be judged much more strictly on quality and tone


 Remember My InformationWhy?
 Email Replies to my Comment
Submitted comments become the property of The Unz Review and may be republished elsewhere at the sole discretion of the latter
Subscribe to This Comment Thread via RSS Subscribe to All Fred Reed Comments via RSS
Personal Classics
Not What Tom Jefferson Had in Mind
Sounds Like A Low-Ranked American University To Me
Very Long, Will Bore Hell Out Of Most People, But I Felt Like Doing It
It's Not A Job. It's An Adventure.
Cloudy, With Possible Tidal Wave