The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 BlogviewFred Reed Archive
The Wall, the Sound and the Fury: And Not Much Else
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks
Some of the prototypes.  Though I am not a construction engineer, it seems to me that 2,000 miles of any of these is more of a job than their proponents are telling us.
Some of the prototypes. Though I am not a construction engineer, it seems to me that 2,000 miles of any of these is more of a job than their proponents are telling us.

With regard to Mr. Trump’s Border Wall, I am skeptical. Now, I freely concede that I am not an authority on Border Walls. In fact, I have never built a Border Wall. This may surprise readers. Yet it is true. So all that follows is in the nature of speculation. Be warned.

Still, though I may be horrifically wrong, and different numbers can be obtained by assuming different types of wall, I suggest that the following represent the kinds of questions that need to be answered. Further, it should be incumbent on those promoting the Wall to produce prices and times that make sense.

All right, Mr. Trump has eight prototypes, but they run to 30 feet high, made of concrete, and go six feet underground to prevent tunneling. According to rumor among the border authorities, some go considerably deeper, and some prototypes are made of other materials. Here we will assume a hypothetical concrete wall thirty feet high and six feet deep. In other words, thirty-six feet in vertical dimension.

Let us assume a thickness of six inches. Much less would be insecure, one supposes. We will ignore rebar. Actually, a glance at the photograph shows that, of whatever they be made, they are more than six inches thick, but we will ignore this.

The volume of concrete in the entire wall would thus be 2,000 miles x 5280 ft / mile x 36 ft x .5 ft, or 190,080,000 cubic feet.

Now, the wall presumably will have to be built in prefab sections at a remote factory or factories, and trucked to the Wall site on flatbed eighteen-wheelers. Donkeys would seem inadequate, helicopters excessive. Fabricating each section in situ with some sort of traveling factory, requiring the trucking in of phenomenal amounts of concrete (or metal or whatever the Wall was made of), would be crazy even by the standards of federal contracting.

To be carried on a standard semi rig, sections could be no more than 8.5 feet wide. Each section would measure 36 ft. x .5 ft. x 8.5 ft, or or 153 cubic feet. Since concrete weights 145 pounds per cubic foot, the section would weigh 22,185 lbs.

Given that a semi can carry only about 45,000 pounds, each truck could carry only two sections. With special permission, not unusual for outsize loads, a semi might carry a section 10 feet wide. Then a single section would weigh 36 ft x .5 x 10 ft x 145 or 26,100 lbs, but then only one could be carried as two would weigh 52,200 lbs, way over the max weight for a semi load. Some other sort of Wall would weigh something else, but you would need a lot of trucks.

Since I don’t know the weights of the prototypes, the foregoing calculations may be off. Show me how, and by how much for each prototype.

A mile being 5280 feet, each mile of wall would require 5280/8.5, sections, or 621. The entire wall would need 2000 miles x 621 sections per mile, or 1, 242,000 sections. That’s 621,000 truck loads.

Assume that the sections were manufactured exactly in the middle of the 2000 mile border. Each section would then have to be trucked an average of 500 miles to its place of installation. If built in California, an average of 1,000 miles. Buy trucking stocks. Of course more factories would mean fewer miles per section. So I figure Mr. Trump must be asking Congress for money for a bunch of factories. Otherwise I wouldn’t think he was serious.

Now, a concrete sail 30 feet high would presumably require a strong foundation to resist the enormous forces created by, say, a forty knot wind. In fact, a high, heavy wall presumably needs a strong foundation just not to collapse sideways in soft earth. Simply placing it in a six-foot ditch would not work. No?

Let us assume a foundation a foot wide on each side of the wall section and, as noted, six feet deep to force migrants to dig a seven-foot hole. Again, just a guess from one who seldom builds international walls. The required volume of concrete will thus be about 2000 miles x 5280 feet/mile x 6 ft x 2 ft, or 126,720,000 cubic feet.

All of this would have to be trucked to its place of use from its place of mixing, and quickly enough to prevent premature hardening. If some stretches of border are too distant or the terrain not adequate, roads will have to be constructed and concrete mixed nearer to the Wall.

Adding the volume for the wall proper to the volume for the foundation, we get 126,720,000 plus 190,080,000 cubic feet, or 316, 800,000 cubic feet. This will weigh x 145, or 22,968,000 tons, all of which will have to be carried to the site of installation. Buy more truck stocks.

What will the Trump Wall cost? Dunno, but would NBC lie? I find:

” White House officials have suggested that the entire wall project could cost between $8 and $12 billion. And, internal DHS assessments suggest the cost could be higher — as much as $21 billion.“

I can think of no greater authorities on heavy construction than a pack of ideological yoyos in the White House who have probably never seen a shovel. The New York Times says $70 billion, and $150 million a year to maintenance.

So, $8 to $70 billion. The government doesn’t know how much the Wall will cost within a factor of about 9, or else is lying. Both are consistent with federal practice. Note that federal projects typically involve very large overruns. Note also that in federal contracting a common tactic, which I saw often in my years covering the Pentagon, is to low-ball your bid and then, when the project is too far along to be cancelled, to discover that the cost will actually be, heh, rather more.

ORDER IT NOW

Over 2,000 miles, the $71 billion figure comes to $35,500,000 per mile, or $57,165 per section. The $21.7 billion figure gives $10,850,000 per mile, or $17,472 per section. At $8 billion, $4,000,000 per mile, or about $6,441 per section. Do you really think the government can buy a 36 by 8.5 by six inch reinforced concrete wall section, truck it a long distance, and erect it for…$6,441? Do you think that even the cheapest of the prototypes would cost so little?

How long will it take to complete this cement F-35? Wall, I mean. Wall. Press reports put time for completion at three years. That’s 660 miles per year. Uh...yeah.

Putting up 621 sections a month, or one mile a month, looks ambitions—over twenty a day. These are hugely heavy concrete slabs requiring a massive crane to set them in place, after which they would have to be tied to neighboring slabs in some manner and, presumably, a foundation poured.

Of course putting up 621 per month requires that the factories manufacture 621 per month. This is certainly not impossible, but will take rather more commitment than we see, which is almost none.

Let us be charitable and assume a mile a month for 2000 months. The Wall will take 167 years. Ten construction crews working at the optimistic rate of a mile a month would take 16.7 years. Mr. Trump has at most 84 months left in office, which would, again at a mile a month, come to 4.2% of the Wall.

Now, I do not know whether Mr. Trump could find the Pacific Ocean on a map of Hawaii. Perhaps so. I have no information on the matter. However, a developer of real estate can reasonably be expected to know something of costing construction.

If I were a cynic, which of course I am not, I might suspect the President of using the Wall to excite his rubes while not actually doing much about immigration, their chief focus. Trump may be a trifle scattered, but he is one hell of a politician. Do we really expect him to send federal marshals to chase away illegals from businesses that depend on them–to shut down agribusiness in California, leave citrus crops to rot, shutter slaughter houses, and put CEOs in slam? Nah. Let’s talk the Wall, a distracting sparkle toy.

Note: I see about as well as a cave fish, so will probably have made arithmetic shiitakes which will bring howling mobs of commenters down on my head. Hey, close enough for government work.

(Republished from Fred on Everything by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Donald Trump, Immigration 
Hide 152 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
    []
  1. It’s all so silly when chain link fence and a lot of landmines can get the job done in a matter of weeks.

  2. bluedog says:

    Forget the wall I’m sure Trump has for that was just a talking point,instead do away with all the benefits the food stamps free medical free this and free that,would’nt be long and they would all head back to South of the Border..

    • Agree: Realist
    • Replies: @Wally
  3. Daniel H says:

    I voted for Trump but this Wall promise was absurd, even though it might have won him the election.

    I really hope that he reneges on this promise, declaring that a virtual wall of efficient document checks and heavy fines on the most egregious abusers will be as effective, somewhat palliating the “always Wallers”.

    If the Wall does get built, and I were a Mexican narco, I would have barbecue/tequila/beer parties with my fellow narcos blasting the wall from the Mexican side with RPGs. Could blast off those RPGs at a safe enough distance, leaving American authorities with no means of retaliation. Mexican federales sure won’t get involved in something that is not their business.

  4. dave337 says:

    The government can’t figure out how to protect the border? And we keep electing them, for what?

    • Replies: @Realist
  5. Why does Fred Reed care about the cost of the wall? He checked out of this country long ago for his gringo ghetto in Ajijic, and my guess is his interest in the finances of the USA extends only as far as his military pension. Could it be that he just doesn’t want a wall to be built? Nah, that can’t be it, since all the clever people know walls don’t work.

    • Replies: @Pat
  6. KenH says:

    Fred must be senile if he thinks building a border wall is technically and logistically insurmountable. Has he not heard of the great wall of China which was built (or rather rebuilt with stone and brick) starting 650 years ago? It’s a good thing there weren’t any Chinese Fred Reeds to lecture the various rulers about the impossibility and impracticality of it all and that the Mongols are really great people who would be an asset to China anyway even though they kill every man, woman and child they encounter.

    Was he critical of Israel’s high concrete border wall? Nope. Morocco is building a border wall with Algeria, and that’s ok with Fred. There are periodic stories that Mexico is considering building a wall on their Southern border but nary a peep from Fred on Everything. One would think since Fred regularly extols the virtues of his beloved messicans that he wouldn’t want any to migrate North of the border since it’s a net genetic loss for the wondrous nation of Mexico.

    I’ll concede that Trump does seem to be going through the motions and getting cold feet when it comes to the wall, but if he thinks he can put this on the back burner and keep jacking off the deplorables with salty tweets then he shouldn’t expect huge rallies or to even win in 2020.

  7. anon • Disclaimer says:

    Of course the wall is buildable – and it will be built.
    And, of course, adequately protecting the border requires not only a simple physical barrier but also other important safeguards and deterrents – electronic detection apparatus, active patrolling, legal and enforcement changes, etc.

    ‘Wall’ is a generalized term. The barrier will be built in various ways depending on the specific terrain requirements where it’s to be erected. In and of itself, it won’t be completely effective, but it will be very effective, and that will be a major help – much akin to the way locks do not provide complete safety, but certainly make things much safer nonetheless.

    We don’t have to argue about this, any more than we do about whether locks can be picked or broken. The ‘wall’ is a necessary part of deterring illegal immigration along the southern border and will work in conjunction with other legal and physical means to be effective. It’s not silly, or crazy, or impossible.

  8. We could save a lot of sweat by spending all that time and money perfecting a time travel machine and bringing some Egyptian pyramid builder engineers and their crews back here to the future to build the wall for us. Those guys have a proven track record of moving big blocks of masonry.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @Wally
  9. Since Senor Reed is cost conscious, there is a less expensive way and it precludes other costs such as detention, incarceration, health care and such. You build simple towers such as the forest rangers have, spaced across the border, staff it with Marines and shoot every living thing trying to enter. Towers are cheap, Marines need range practice as we’re going back to Korea and bullets are sure things for few pesos. Just kill the fuckers, Fred.

    Problem solved. And cost effective too. What’s not to like?

    • Replies: @anonymous
  10. Daniel H says:
    @KenH

    >>Has he not heard of the great wall of China which was built (or rather rebuilt with stone and brick) starting 650 years ago?

    Building the wall didn’t do the Han Chinese much good. Both the Mongols and Manchus subverted the wall and installed their own dynasties to lead China for hundreds of years.

    • Replies: @KenH
  11. Why not ask our best friends the Israelis? They have built a similar wall to contain people and should be ready to offer a contract as theirs is nearly completed.They might even offer a family discount through Jarad.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  12. Building border protection is not really a question of economics or technology (Israel has built a very effective system of border protection and there are other countries in the process of doing so). Rather, it is a question of political will, as are the associated measures of identifying and rapidly removing infiltrators. Sadly, I have to concede Fred Reed’s more general point that there is insufficient politiccal will in the present U.S. leadership to take the measures necessary to halt the infiltrators and stop the racial dispossession of European-origin white peope in the United States.

  13. It has to be an ice wall, a-la Game of Thrones. Like this one here:

    http://strangesounds.org/2018/01/giant-ice-wall-china-russia-border-video.html

    All’s needed is some water and a couple of AC units.

  14. MEH 0910 says:

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  15. KenH says:
    @Daniel H

    Building the wall didn’t do the Han Chinese much good. Both the Mongols and Manchus subverted the wall and installed their own dynasties to lead China for hundreds of years.

    In the case of the Manchu invasion Chinese general Wu Sangui opened the gates of the Great Wall to the invaders. Just like Trump’s wall won’t work if he installs a “big, beautiful door” that is permanently kept open or occasionally unlocked by American saboteurs.

    Otherwise, the Great Wall would have worked and walls in general work or nobody would build them.

  16. Part of Israel’s wall is a bunch of concertina wire and some chain link fence. That would seem pretty doable. Captured illegals in America could be employed in building such a wall as a condition of their being released back into Mexico, thereby fulfilling Trump’s promise of having Mexicans paying for it. The prospect of three years unpaid hard labor would be a further deterrent to any would be transgressors as well.

    “About 90-95% of the barrier will be constructed as a “multi-layered fence system”[24] with the IDF’s preferred design having three fences, pyramid-shaped stacks of barbed wire on the two outer fences, a lighter-weight fence with intrusion detection equipment in the middle, an anti-vehicle ditch, patrol roads on both sides, and a smooth strip of sand for “intrusion tracking” Wiki

    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
  17. “Building the Great Pyramid in 20 years involved installing approximately 800 tonnes of stone every day. Additionally, since it consisted of an estimated 2.3 million blocks, completing the building in 20 years involved moving an average of more than 12 of the blocks into place each hour, day and night.”

    Not a Semi or a cement factory in sight. Gee Fred, the building of the Great Pyramid at Giza and others built by the Ancient Egyptians seem to actually make building our wall look like a trivial matter.

  18. @bobbybobbob

    “It’s all so silly when chain link fence and a lot of landmines can get the job done in a matter of weeks.”

    You forgot the guards with orders to shoot to kill.

    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
  19. The Berlin “anti-free-Germans wall”, and the Israel “anti-free-Palestinians wall” both relied/rely on armed guards shooting to kill anyone attempting to scale or climb over the wall. Perhaps the Israeli armed guards are a bit more enthusiastic about shooting those who would defeat the wall, but that is still the crux of it.

    There is no way on earth the American government would ever institute a policy of shooting border-crossing Mexicans under any circumstances, much less when they might be attempting to climb a wall. Mexicans are absolutely essential to the 0.1%’s plans for increasing their dominance through wealth and power.

    It’s a joke. Ain’t gonna happen. Now, if the rich were assessed fines of $10,000, and 6-month jail terms for each illegal alien they employ, there wouldn’t be an illegal alien to be found, anywhere.

    Wealth and power. That’s all that counts.

    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  20. You’d think a guy who fancies himself a journalist would get off his ass, get on the internet or phone, and get some details from a civil engineer, rather than making the whole thing up as he goes along. I would agree with anyone here or elsewhere who understands that the barrier does not have to be a “wall”, per se. There is no reason any such secure border should cost as much per mile as rural Interstate highway does, as land costs will be minimal.

    Does Fred know how much concrete goes into airport runways and taxiways? Does he know about setting up small concrete facilities near each portion of the project. Does he not know that a decent dirt road can be layed out just ahead of the construction area for flatbed and concrete trucks? Does he know about setting forms and pouring concrete? Does he know one can get granite or other aggregate out of the ground all over the place, oh and sand, and water?

    Here’s the biggest bit of Fred Reed ignorance or plain stupidity. Ever heard of having various teams of construction crews work on different portions of the same project? This goes back to Fred’s time, maybe further, to the building of the transcontinental railroads. Ther is no excuse for this kind of display of stupidity other than senility.

    One more thing: Upkeep and operation of a secure border barrier would cost less than keeping 25,000 soldiers in Korea to keep these Koreans from attacking these other Koreans.

    The only thing I do agree with in this whole ridiculous post is that, yes, the Feral Gov’t is unwilling to do this job, and yes, incapable of getting much done in general. Americans would get this job done, not the government, in 6 months if we were to just get started.

    • Agree: Miro23
  21. So for a fraction of the cost of the Iraq war, we can keep Mexicans out *and* enact a massive jobs program for thousands of blue-collar, red-state concrete contractors in the American Southwest?

  22. @bobbybobbob

    Israel has figured out a cheap and effective way of walling/fencing off its southern border. We could just adopt or license their technology. Based on Israel’s per kilometer costs, it would cost about $20 – $30 billion to pay for walling/fencing the USA’s entire southern border. Strict internal enforcement of all laws regarding legal and illegal resident aliens and cutting off all tax-payer funded benefits to illegals, e.g., welfare, education, and health care, would soon solve the problems illegal aliens create. The costs of these problems are quite high, so the costs of the wall/fence, strict enforcement, and elimination of benefits to illegals would be offset by the resulting savings within a few years. All that is lacking is the political will.

    • Agree: Cato
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  23. @ThreeCranes

    I want to be at this end of the time machine to see the looks in their eyes when they first see a big CAT excavator or dozer.

    “Mighty machines
    Big and mighty machines
    working for you doing mighty things,
    they’re mighty machines”

    “Lifting and pulling and flying so high,
    building a building up to the sky.
    You can watch ‘em all day,
    and then you’ll know why,
    they’re mighty machines!”

    A group of bright American 6-year old boys who’ve watched enough “Mighty Machines” videos on youtube could probably build one of those pyramids in a week, if their uptight, overprotective teachers would let them out of 1st grade.

  24. @Steve Gittelson

    The Berlin “anti-free-Germans wall”, and the Israel “anti-free-Palestinians wall …

    That equivalence is wrong, Steve. The Berlin Wall was meant as an anti-going-to-free-Germany wall, it wasn’t built to keep free Germans out. The shooting was performed from the people on the same side of the wall as the wall climbers.

    Otherwise, I agree, that the Feral Government does not want to fix the invasion problem.

  25. It might behoove Fred Reed to keep up with what Trump has actually said. He never said the wall would be 2000 miles long. I listened to all of Trump’s rallies back in 2015 and 2016 and the promise was the wall would work in conjunction with natural barriers, which are significant particularly on the Eastern leg of the border. I believe his estimate was around 1000 miles. So much for Fred’s imaginative arithmetic! Of course Reed always does this. He takes a scenario no one has discussed or proposed and proceeds to heroically knock it down. When discussing deportations, he lumps in the 40 million or so American citizens of Hispanic origin. Including Puerto Ricans! Fred’s a jackass.

  26. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Abe Finklestein

    The Israeli barrier is a fence/trench/sensor system except where frequent gunfire from parts of the West Bank has been a problem: the wall part is to stop bullets; it’s not needed to stop people.

    Since Trump has talked about a wall, what he can do is build one in a few symbolically important areas (say, between El Paso and Ciudad Juárez), and use the fence system elsewhere. It’s not rocket science.

    But even if it were as expensive as Fred suggests, compare the cost against the money saved in medical, education, welfare, policing, and other costs for each illegal migrant kept out.

  27. 1/ Both the Berlin and Israeli walls are a small fraction of the length the Trump wall would be.

    2/ The Great Wall of China is currently the Great Tourist Trap of China and is hardly being used to keep people out.

    3/ You can’t build anything consequential in America in three years anymore. The lawsuits alone…

    4/ Expand E-Verify.

    • Replies: @Alden
  28. utu says:

    I might suspect the President of using the Wall to excite his rubes while not actually doing much about immigration, their chief focus. Trump may be a trifle scattered, but he is one hell of a politician. Do we really expect him to send federal marshals to chase away illegals from businesses that depend on them–to shut down agribusiness in California, leave citrus crops to rot, shutter slaughter houses, and put CEOs in slam? Nah. Let’s talk the Wall, a distracting sparkle toy.

    Exactly. The point of talking about the wall is so we do not talk about solving the problem of illegal immigration on the job supply side. Just enforce the laws that are already on the books. And the legal immigration which probably is even a bigger issue won’t be talked about either.

  29. Wow, $70 billion to build a wall to prevent thousands of unknown foreigners from invading the USA each day. Imagine if we spent this, less than 10% of the annual US national security budget, on something to actually protect the USA! All this would provide jobs to Americans, rather than the billions we spend each year on construction at overseas military bases where foreigners are hired.

    I’m not sure if Mr. Reed has actually spent time along the US-Mexican border. He prefers inland Mexico far away for these desperate Latino/Muslim/African refugees and the daily chaos they cause along the border and later throughout the USA. Otherwise, he would know that over 90% of illegal crossings occur along less than 10% of the border. Most of the border lacks good road access so there is no bus to take and its too rugged for regular people to cross on foot.

    A serious wall/barrier is only needed along a small part. The simple solution for that other 90% of the border is for Trump to order just 10,000 American soldiers back to the Mexican border to actually defend the USA! Defending the US-Mexican border was the US Army’s primary mission until 1940!

    http://www.g2mil.com/border.htm

    Mr. Reed’s open borders ally MSNBC went to the border to report on this Trump Wall boondoggle. As the news report was made, a family of “asylum seekers” hopped over the small existing wall into the USA, so now they will cost taxpayers thousands of dollars to care for and “process” and many thousands more if they remain. This occurs dozens of times each day. (Note: very poor people don’t travel hundreds of miles and dash through the desert to evade the Border Patrol because they want to help American citizens, especially a mother with children.) Trump’s wall along these urbanized areas of the border can stop this stupid BS. Watch this MSNBC video clip that exposes Reed’s argument as Ivory Tower BS, or in his case “Padre Kino” BS.

  30. “I can think of no greater authorities on heavy construction than a pack of ideological yoyos in the White House who have probably never seen a shovel.”

    Prez Trump, in his former life, built enormous skyscrapers. You can see them in cities all over the country.

    The Israelis have virtually surrounded their entire country with high tech security fences and walls and they work. I’m assuming the Israelis are willing to consult with the U.S.

    • Replies: @macilrae
  31. @Jus' Sayin'...

    Would you care to elaborate on Israel’s walling/fencing off it’s whole southern border? Do you mean the border beteeen Israel and Jordan from the Dead Sea to Aqaba? I did a trip from Eilat to Petra and back one day in May 2016 and then a drive from Eilat to Jerusalem within Israel a couple of days layer and I’m afraid my powers of observation weren’t up to leaving me with an answer to my question to you. I note that you don’t seem to be suggesting that Israel’s long sea coast to the W of the Negev is covered.

  32. Alden says:
    @anony-mouse

    No matter how E verify is expanded, employees refuse to use it. So it’s useless.

  33. Wally says: • Website
    @bluedog

    You nailed it.

    However, Reed said:
    “If I were a cynic, which of course I am not, I might suspect the President of using the Wall to excite his rubes while not actually doing much about immigration, their chief focus.”

    except:

    DHS: Deportations of Illegal Aliens Living Across U.S. Increase 37 Percent Under Trump

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/12/29/dhs-deportations-of-illegal-aliens-living-across-u-s-increase-37-percent-under-trump/

    http://www.codoh.com

  34. Wally says: • Website
    @ThreeCranes

    Right.
    And ‘academics’ tell us the Egyptians didn’t have the wheel and only had very crude tools to cut rock.

    Oh those bloody spacemen. LOL

    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
  35. not all 2000 miles needs a wall, some places are just not practical to try and build a wall at

    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
  36. I never really expected the Wall to be built. I doubt Trump actually meant it, and I suspect even his “BUILD THE WALL” fanbase will accept whatever rationale Trump gives when he doesn’t fulfill this promise.

    Mexicans cross the border for reasons that will not be stopped by a wall. Whether it’s work, or family, or just simple welfare, they will get here, wall or no. While it may feel good to write “well, we’ll just shoot them!” on the Internet, getting a critical mass of ordinary Americans to gun down men, women and children popping out of a tunnel is not likely.

    Preventing illegal immigration is accomplished simply by fining employers who hire illegals into bankruptcy, transporting every illegal immigrant in prison back to the capital city of their country of origin (and presenting the same government with a bill for transport), and denying welfare and public education to any illegal immigrant and their children. This has the attractive qualities of: a) being simple for people to understand; b) can be dictated by Federal laws; and c) has a positive feedback loop in that the longer this policy is enforced the more people will self-deport, thus requiring less and less effort and money as the policy continues.

    The counter argument is that this policy punishes American businesses and is subject to thwarting by local leftist politicians and possibly the Supreme Court. True, but it’s still more likely to be implemented with success than a 1000+ mile boondoggle patrolled by an army of sociopaths armed with automatic weapons shooting at every human head that pops out of a gopher hole.

    As for Fred’s back-of-the-envelope calculations, I didn’t spot any egregious errors. It’s probably good within an order of magnitude. Enrico Fermi would be proud. My only suggestion would be that once a design is finalized, the mass production of that design can go quite quickly if the design specs can be subcontracted to multiple suppliers. Capitalism is pretty good at stamping things out faster and cheaper if the price is fixed, the competition is steep, and the project is long. One savvy guy in a hard hat will develop a new pre-stressed concrete jig and will punch out wall sections at a prodigious rate. Transportation and installation are not insurmountable problems. All that takes is one savvy guy in a tie organizing specialized crews.

    It’s fun to compare the Wall with Israel’s border wall, but they are not the same. For one, Israel is patrolled by their military, and we do not (and should not) have that here. Two, the border wall in Israel isn’t meant to keep ordinary folks from crossing over and cleaning hotel rooms on the cheap. Three, Israel is the size of New Jersey. Four, there are like 5 million Palestinians. Mexico has 120 million people. Let Israel do Israel. Our problem is not the same problem that Israel faces.

    Finally, the immigration problem is not our primary problem. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a big problem, but it’s a second order effect of other, more pressing problems. America is still acting like it’s 1951 and the rest of the world is either in shambles after the War or is a Fourth World nation. We live too rich for our pocketbooks. We claim a Pax Americana, but we only spend and never collect. Too much of our domestic product is debt service against an uncertain future. We are increasingly not allowed to speak our mind without repercussions. We granted power to politicians in the past, but politics has since become a kind of reality show where the winners still wield the same power. And we’re fine with all of that, so long as we can stick it to the other American we don’t like.

    • Agree: bluedog
  37. Bill Bee says:

    The Berlin Wall came down after many years of denying ” freedom ” to people and since then a wall has gone up in Israel/ Palestine and the Trump wall is talked about seriously . Good game being played out here guys.

  38. “With regard to Mr. Trump’s Border Wall, I am skeptical. Now, I freely concede that I am not an authority on Border Walls. In fact, I have never built a Border Wall. This may surprise readers. Yet it is true. So all that follows is in the nature of speculation. Be warned.”

    Oh Fred your levity is muy bueno! But mira, we all know the only reason you don’t want the wall is because you like the idea of Meh-He-Coe sending all of their felons, thieves, and child molesters (read: most of the Meh-He-Cans of mestizo descent; you’re OK with the European-Meh-He-Can ruling class and its bonita senoritas) north of the River Large. The more mongoloids up here, the less you have to worry about down there, si? Si?

  39. wayfarer says:

    I live in Yuma Arizona, a stones throw from Mexico, where the population is 50% Hispanic.

    The MAGA (Morons Are Governing America) wall’s a joke, and the joke’s on America.

    It may keep out some undocumented rattlesnakes and roadrunners, but that’s about it.

    It’ll definitely trash the environment.

    Any business owner within the U.S. that hire’s undocumented workers (i.e. illegal), should be thrown in jail.

    Illegal immigration problem solved.

    Keep it simple, stupid government.

    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
  40. Renoman says:

    It should be done with a slip form Fred. Dig the tench, drop on the moving form, mix the concrete with a portable factory and roll it forward at about 12″ a minute, A dozen machines, 3.5 years. Modern construction is very fast and it should be quite cheap [relatively]. The most expensive part would be for lawyers, bribes and graft.

  41. @bobbybobbob

    [Using allcaps in comments is shouting, and shouting comments are unlikely to be published, especially if they lack proper punctuation, spacing, and grammar.]

  42. TG says:

    As you point out, the wall is just a sparkle toy – or perhaps symbol.

    Until about 1970, the United States didn’t need a wall to control illegal immigration. It just needed to enforce the law.

    People don’t trespass on the vast estates of Bill Gates etc. because they are surrounded by impenetrable walls. They don’t trespass because they know that if they do they will likely be arrested and hauled off to jail. “There shall be open borders” is so only for little people.

    Trump has betrayed us on war and peace, on taxes, and, so far, on trade. We still do hear some mutterings about reducing chain migration etc., but so far just mutterings. I am not hopeful.

  43. TheOldOne says:

    Mr. Reed knows that what he writes here is just a joke; I guess today we get “liberal Fred” instead of “conservative Fred” (who seems lately only to emerge to talk about the stupidity of Negroes).

    Ron Unz keeps a certain number of nutty columnists on hand to balance things out here–Fred is one of them.

  44. Dr. X says:

    Oh, there’s already been a very successful wall built. Paid for by the U.S. taxpayer.

    It’s just that it’s on Israel’s border, not ours…

  45. bluedog says:
    @Demeter Last

    Your right its a simple solution, do as Ike did anyone caught employing illegals were fined $10,000 dollars only seeing the dollar don’t buy what it use to fine them $100,000,you would be amazed at how fast the illegal problem would dis-appear…

  46. macilrae says:
    @Shouting Thomas

    The Israelis have virtually surrounded their entire country with high tech security fences and walls and they work. I’m assuming the Israelis are willing to consult with the U.S.

    We could at least ask them – if the price was right I have a hunch they’d agree. I think they still have ‘our’ back – as they did when the desperate call went out for experienced Arabic speaking interrogators for Abu Ghraib – interrogators, that is, who knew which side they were on.

  47. StephenC says:

    That was good Fred. Now do highways. I bet the notion of building roads all over the country is even crazier!

    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
  48. Respect says:

    My wall is biggest than yours

  49. @Demeter Last

    Preventing illegal immigration is accomplished simply by fining employers who hire illegals into bankruptcy, transporting every illegal immigrant in prison back to the capital city of their country of origin (and presenting the same government with a bill for transport), and denying welfare and public education to any illegal immigrant and their children. This has the attractive qualities of: a) being simple for people to understand; b) can be dictated by Federal laws; and c) has a positive feedback loop in that the longer this policy is enforced the more people will self-deport, thus requiring less and less effort and money as the policy continues.

    I believe that brief prison terms for owners/CEOs would be salutatory. Fines that increment daily, plus jail-time.

    All of which is already law. Perhaps fines and jail-time for appointed government and law-enforcement officials would be a necessary preamble?

    • Replies: @MEFOBILLS
  50. @TheOldOne

    Ron Unz keeps a certain number of nutty columnists on hand to balance things out here–Fred is one of them.

    And nutty commenters for “balance”, too, right?

    If you don’t wanna read it, DON’T FUCKING READ IT!!

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  51. macilrae says:

    Whenever somebody came to me with a brilliant new business idea I always said “give me a summary on one side of a piece of paper with the essence of your idea – business plan can come later”. Fred has done this here in his usual down-to-earth fashion and shown how ludicrous the thing is – that could have saved a lot of people a lot of time – writing 1000 page proposals. F-35 is right!

    And another thing – Trump said “We have to build a wall!” And a wall is a wall, not a fence – unless it is built by the Israelis and then it is a fence: if built by the East Germans it is however clearly a wall (even more so if done by Russians). Oh, and by the way, Russian police use clubs – we use batons.

    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
  52. Respect says:

    No wall defends against the lack of balls

    The feminized west ain`t got no balls

    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
  53. nickels says:

    Trump: makes deal to fund border wall, allows DACA dreamers to stay in country, demographically taking over immigration policy.
    #Winning !!!!

    • Replies: @Steve Gittelson
  54. @nickels

    This coterie of simpletons, who think themselves somehow the essence of conservatism, will never come to the realization that Trump is a billionaire elitist member of the 0.1%, and has not the slightest genuine concern over the replacement of Americans by low-wage Mexicans and Asians. Not the slightest.

    • Agree: bluedog
  55. You don’t need a wall.
    Two barbed wire fences fifty feet apart and the demonstrated willingness to shoot anything between them would solve this problem in a month.

    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
  56. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “I can think of no greater authorities on heavy construction than a pack of ideological yoyos in the White House who have probably never seen a shovel. The New York Times says $70 billion, and $150 million a year to maintenance.”

    Trump, having spent most of his life in construction, knows nothing of the subject. We must trust the experts at The New York Times. They can call on Krugman, who probably knows even more about construction than he does about economics.

    “The Wall will collapse and never recover.”
    – Krugman

  57. Israel-first Trump is never going to make a wall OR any other lasting positive changes in America. He’s just another Zionist puppet. The establishment just likes to yoyo back and forth between ever increasingly left and right wing rhetoric with each new administration. It turns the plebeians on each other. Divide and conquer. Ordo ab chao. Nothing new.

    There is no America any more. Whatever tattered remains might have survived the civil war (read: unconstitutional war of northern aggression) did not survive the mid 20th century usurpation of power by the post-frankfurt school 2.0 commies, the cultural marxists. At this point, actual Americans don’t have the birth rates to fight back. They don’t have the unity to fight back. There is no America anymore. Full stop.

    If your intentions are to stay in America much longer, as a white person, you’re as good as dead. Just look around you. You’re literally surrounded by increasingly violent, mass imported, high birthrate, anti-white pocket colonies that the government has spent the last half a century both demographically replacing you with and weaponizing against you, your culture, your heritage and even your children’s’ right to exist in the future with notions of self-entitlement, victimhood mentality and, of course, the invisible chains of the welfare plantation. Diversity is indeed very strong. It is however, a unilaterally DESTRUCTIVE force.

    If civil war happened in America, the government would be aiding and abetting these anti-white groups (BLM, Reconquists, Nation of Islam) in the wholesale slaughter of the white population in America. Just like they do with ISIS in the middle east, civil war in America would be a proxy war between the remaining white Americans and a government-backed coalition of self-interested anti-white groups united only by their hatred for ‘white supremacy’ (read: all white people who think they deserve to live). Even the Mossad and the blue helmets would inevitably find a way to help contribute to the eradication of the last vestiges of the ACTUAL American people. As per the definitions set by the actual founding American generation in 1790, which no one has any more right to change than they have to go into Mexico and say that Asians and Indians and Negroes etc. are all Mexicans now too.

    Things are going to go full Bolshevik in America. When that happens. There won’t be anything left to stay for. So why keep up the charade otherwise? Most of the nation is under enemy occupation already. There is only one corner of the world where whites will even have a CHANCE to retreat in the coming future. And that is Eastern Europe. Everywhere else is already WAY past the point of no return. And even Eastern Europe won’t be much of a stronghold if that EU army becomes a reality.

    This isn’t America anymore. Even your average patriot only selectively upholds 1 or 2 teachings from the founders and then discards the other 99.99% in the most, tolerant, inclusive and progressive fashion. As if the Naturalization Act of 1790 isn’t equally as important as the Bill of Rights. Yet straying from the Naturalization Act of 1790 is exactly how we ended up where we are today. Civic nationalism is just controlled opposition. Multiculturalism by another name. Another way of saying ‘diversity is a strength’.

    The 2nd amendment will never be formally invoked. People need to grasp this. When the powers that be couldn’t infringe upon Americans’ constitutional rights the way they did by disarming Europe and then ending their free speech with hate speech laws, they demographically replaced Americans with the most hostile and primitive ethnic groups on the planet, so that they would do their work for them. America is just a self-loathing nation of hedonistic human cattle, drowning in poverty and crime at this point. Half of the people here can’t even function without their opioids and SSRIs or insulin. Take any armed approach at all and the government and media will have you slandered as Nazis in the eyes of the useful idiot masses who won’t even wait for permission to take to the streets and start killing you on the government’s behalf in the name of social justice.

    And that will be all the ‘humanitarian crisis’ necessary to start rolling out all that Jade Helm military equipment that no one ever saw going back the way it came after the drill. And then we will see the government use the civil conflict as cover to tactically decimate the remaining white nationalists under the guise of peacekeeping.

    Divide and conquer. Ordo ab chao. Nothing new.

  58. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Gittelson

    Who deputized you as the redneck Minuteman of this comment thread? It isn’t as if all your knee-jerk dorm-room-Marxist blather has improved the discussion either

    • Replies: @bluedog
  59. Oldeguy says:

    If Fred had his tongue implanted any more firmly in his cheek, he would crack a molar. I am appalled at how many of the commentators apparently are perfectly at ease with using landmines to block the pathetic wretches try to enter the U.S. to do the honest, if unpleasant and low paid, labor Americans now shun.
    Give vigorous enforcement of existing laws against the employers of the undocumented ( stiff fines for first offense, jail for repeat offenders ) a real trial and then, if you are prepared to live with the impact of the dirty job doers disappearance ( which I very much doubt ) talk about border control.

    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
    , @Rich
  60. bluedog says:
    @Anonymous

    Ah the truth does hurt,does it not?.

  61. @interesting

    Ditch-and-earthberm. Materials cost = zero.

    Seabees and Corps of Engineers. Labor costs = zero.

    15+ years of practical experience in the Sandbox. R&D costs = zero.

  62. Fred never heard about our feminist battle-cry.
    So here it is.
    Anything Israel can do, we can do better

  63. SMK says: • Website

    In respect to the penultimate sentence in the penultimate paragraph of his article, I suggest he and others read Roy Beck’s “The Case Against Immigration” in which he discusses this matter at length.

  64. @TheOldOne

    Mr. Reed knows that what he writes here is just a joke; I guess today we get “liberal Fred” instead of “conservative Fred” (who seems lately only to emerge to talk about the stupidity of Negroes).

    Agreed, and as I wrote under the last of the latter type of article (by “Truthful Fred”),

    Fred’s schtick is also to throw this kind of truth out there at least 4 or 5 times a year in order to keep most of his readers, who are otherwise sick of his continual promotion of his new-found Mexicanity. What I don’t like is that, anytime other writers, VDare people for example, or the few decent politicians, come up with ideas for solutions to America’s manifold racial problems, Mr. Reed makes a point to criticize them. Fred Reed loves to complain, but will not offer any solutions and hates those who do.

    ———————————————————————————————

    Ron Unz keeps a certain number of nutty columnists on hand to balance things out here–Fred is one of them.

    You can say that again. There is a contingent of flat-out Commies, but, hey, if they get hits, so be it. The younger folks don’t remember the Cold War, and it’s just that time of the century when the Commies start crawling out of the woodwork again – best not let it go down like it did in the 20th, as I think they are aiming at us Americans this go-around.

  65. JSM says:

    Ah, baloney.

    White Americans built the interstate highway system in a whole lot less time than 2000 years, and it took a WHOLE lot more materials.

  66. Bellator says:

    Israel built 100 miles of “wall” in about a year. But. It consisted of “three fences, pyramid-shaped stacks of barbed wire on the two outer fences, a lighter-weight fence with intrusion detection equipment in the middle, an anti-vehicle ditch, patrol roads on both sides, and a smooth strip of sand for intrusion tracking”. Also: “…width of some sections (about 6% of the barrier) is 3 metres (9.8 ft) where the barrier is constructed as a concrete wall up to 8 metres (26 ft) high. These sections are narrower, require less land, and provide more protection against snipers. Wall construction is more common in urban settings”.

    So no, the entire wall will not be made of concrete. Most of it will actually follow the Israeli model. Fences with intrusion detection devices and regular vehicle patrols. And yes, quite doable.

  67. As far as I am concerned, the wall can be thirty feet deep, forty feet high and ten feet wide. Be fronted with barbed wire and landmines, lasers, and cameras.

    My only tweek would be to make it out of plexi-glass — aesthetics do matter.

    And certainly, out immigration regs will need overhauling, I would add a chip to every passport encoded with date of expiration and gps monitoring. — maybe the chip could be implanted on entry – a little stick and done . . .

    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
  68. @bobbybobbob

    @bobbybobob,

    Oh bobbybobob, you’re sosososilly. But psycho comments do have a certain entertainment value. I just hope someone has you well strapped in while you fantasize.

  69. rok1953 says:

    I guarded a border in 1953. no one crossed the Korean/NKorean border. It would cost
    nothing to use that same group of people on our border. They are at Pendleton, Lejuene
    and Okinawa. Just put these Marines on maneuvers along the border.

  70. @ThreeCranes

    The military could have completed this very model along our Southern border by now, if they had started on Inauguration Day.

    • Replies: @Simply Simon
  71. @EliteCommInc.

    One of the prototypes is, in fact, transparent. Gives the Border Patrol a clear view of the AO.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  72. @Oldeguy

    “Dirty” jobs can be done by the same people who did them prior to our becoming Northern Mexico.

    • Replies: @Oldeguy
    , @Hu Mi Yu
  73. @Respect

    This is, unfortunately, the crux of the matter.

  74. @macilrae

    We use “impact tools”.

    I know, right?

  75. @StephenC

    “We have reached our rendezvous with destiny. With the unbounded determination of our people, we will now unconditionally surrender to the Empire of Japan — so help us God.”

  76. @Demeter Last

    Fortifying the southern border will also have a salutary effect on drug smuggling, and thus on the “opioid crisis”. MS-13 bangers will be kept out along with those angelic hard-working Mexicans who have made Mexico such an economic paradise.

  77. Oldeguy says:
    @SteveRogers42

    “can be done by the same people who did them prior…..”
    Do you really expect that that’s what would happen ?

    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
  78. @Wally

    Was this what you were lookin’ for, mate?

  79. @wayfarer

    “Undocumented rattlesnakes and roadrunners”, you say?

  80. @Oldeguy

    Sure. But if it doesn’t happen in a natural and timely fashion, consider this: Just as Operation Wetback provides an old-school model for sane immigration enforcement, the Civilian Conservation Corps provides an old-school model for sane welfare/labor policy. Those who receive free govt. cheese would be organized under military supervision and put to work on those dirty jobs, just as they were in the 1930′s. If they do not wish to participate, the gimmedats dry up.

    A second source of fruit pickers would be state and federal prisoners. Instead of the weight pile, healthy outdoor exercise for 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. We’ll call it something like — let’s see — oh, yeah — “chain gangs.”

    And to fill in around the edges, all the seasonal labor jobs like landscaping and warehouse box-pushing would be filled by students working on their summer and Christmas breaks, just as it was done in the 1970′s.

    Not rocket surgery. All that’s needed is the Will, to paraphrase Imperial Sunset in comment # 54.

  81. Tony says:

    Fred dont like dudes who have hit the wall.

  82. @SteveRogers42

    Killjoy!

    Besides, why shouldn’t the seeming policy for terrorists (none taken alive) not also apply to invaders?

    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
  83. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Mr. Trump has at most 84 months left in office, which would, again at a mile a month, come to 4.2% of the Wall.

    Given the statement directly preceding this one, that should be 42%.

  84. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @jim sweeney

    Just kill the fuckers, Fred.

    As I have always said; Greedy and Psychopathic.

    You do well representing the “psychopathic” part.

    I am sure your other posts will prove the “greedy” part too.

  85. lavoisier says: • Website
    @KenH

    I’ll concede that Trump does seem to be going through the motions and getting cold feet when it comes to the wall, but if he thinks he can put this on the back burner and keep jacking off the deplorables with salty tweets then he shouldn’t expect huge rallies or to even win in 2020.

    You can also add his unmitigated support for Israel and all the evil that this entails as a prime reason to not support or trust the moron.

    America first: Bullshit.

  86. Hu Mi Yu says:
    @SteveRogers42

    “Dirty” jobs can be done by the same people who did them prior to our becoming Northern Mexico.

    The Southwest has always been part of northern Mexico. You can’t change that, no matter how hard you try.

  87. @Hu Mi Yu

    Wrong, Texas, Arizona, and California were mostly Anglo until from 30 to 10 years back (with AZ still mostly Anglo). There were long-term Chicano , oops, Latino , oops, Hispanic residents in all the those states for a long time, especially Texas, but they were as Americanized as apple-pie-filled burritos until the newcomers. New Mexico has always had a pretty strong hispanic presence.

    Nope, they have NOT been northern Mexico since about 2 centuries ago. I don’t know how old you are, but I’ve seen it myself – no, I guess I didn’t witness the Gadsden purchase (my brother-in-law notarized it though, as I recall …)

    See “Who, me, you”, I’ve been everywhere, man.

    • Replies: @Hu Mi Yu
  88. Rich says:
    @Oldeguy

    Jobs that were once decent paying are now low paying because illegal aliens are doing them. There are many American construction workers out there, as well as younger Americans who’d love to learn a trade, who just can’t live on the slave wages illegals are paid. Remember, illegals in NY receive food stamps, section 8 housing as well as free clothing and education for their kids. Our tax dollars are helping employers finance their projects.

  89. @bobbybobbob

    It’s sad that just because he’s banging a Mexican gal, Fred–who used to be a somewhat interesting and highly entertaining read–has turned into a tired old churchlady scold.

    Fred blathers on–and on and on and on–to try and assert something that is debunked by common sense and three words: “Interstate Highway System”

    Fred who likes to note–correctly–that lots of people are technically incompetent and innumerate now blathers on tediously and ridiculously to prove that a Wall is some sort of gargantuan project for the US. Yet staring Fred–and eveyone in the face–is that we already have concrete stretching across the land. It’s call “The Interstate Highway System”. In fact, we have five interstate highways–I-90,80,70,40,10–that are essentially transcontinental. And roughly 50,000 miles in total. (Yes, Fred it is a lot of concrete, but we’re a big nation used to pouring concrete.) The Wall–even if concrete–would be in scale sort of half a highway with less site prep. About 2% of the interstate system. In short, no big deal.

    And in terms of financials, expensive stuff in the US are not “stuff”, but people and “services”. Half the population–including most of the Mexican immigrants and their descendants–are net tax eaters. Any poke at doing a little back of the envelope math suggests a $20 billion dollar wall would start pencilling out if it kept out even a net 100K people with low skills and low IQ genes. Deter a million such people and it’s a ridiculously good investment. Adding low IQ “cheap labor!” to your nation is never a good idea long term … as American history, and Fred himself numerous times, have made clear.

    In short, building the Wall is not only no big deal, it’s a tractable, financially sound, wise and necessary deal–statesmenship. The big deal is entirely all the hysteric whining and gnashing of teeth of the usual leftist girls (of whatever sex) who don’t believe we should have a nation, and benefit–”diversity is the health of the state”–from flooding the joint with foreigners. It’s sad, that Fred’s Mexican sojourn and senora has turned him into one of these tedious anti-nationalist whiners.

  90. @AnotherDad

    Yep, Another Dad, I mentioned this above, and blogged about it before, most of a year ago.

    (coincidentally, I just commented under iSteve about it right before I clicked back here, but my comments take a while to go live.)

  91. @The Alarmist

    I am just a loveable little fluffball who wishes to avoid violence at all costs.

    Plus, this way we can save our live rounds for the Skinnies:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/woman-delivering-meals-homeless-attacked-machete-160019346.html

  92. @SteveRogers42

    By military I assume you mean the US Army Corp of Engineers, and not Army, Navy Marine Corp or Air Force enlisted personnel. The Corp of Engineers is well equipped to design and supervise construction of a multitude of projects including The Wall. The Corp will send out for bids from civilian contractors. That’s the way it works nowadays but in the past there have been exceptions like construction of the ALCAN highway which used military personnel including many Negroes as they were called at the time.

    • Replies: @SteveRogers42
  93. @Hu Mi Yu

    Ho Li Phuc! You history style no good!

  94. @Simply Simon

    Well, I wouldn’t leave the Seabees out of the picture..

    But no, I was thinking about them fortifying the perimeter just like they’ve been doing overseas for the last decade and a half.

    • Replies: @Simply Simon
  95. That’s not a big money:
    6.000.000m3 of reinforced concrete * $250/m3 = $1.5 bln
    Share it to 100 contractors, it is $15mln. each – nice number!!
    For that number he has to build 26 miles of the wall – possible!

  96. Hu Mi Yu says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Wrong, Texas, Arizona, and California were mostly Anglo until from 30 to 10 years back (with AZ still mostly Anglo). There were long-term Chicano , oops, Latino , oops, Hispanic residents in all the those states for a long time, especially Texas, but they were as Americanized as apple-pie-filled burritos until the newcomers.

    ¿Tiene problemas escribando en inglés, Señior?

    Nope, they have NOT been northern Mexico since about 2 centuries ago. I don’t know how old you are, but I’ve seen it myself – no, I guess I didn’t witness the Gadsden purchase (my brother-in-law notarized it though, as I recall …)

    Life was harsh in frontier California. My family goes back to the 1850s. Around 1870 they were brutally attacked and driven out of a mining town for being “Cousin Jacks” (Canadian). My great-great-grandmother’s affair with a runaway slave probably had something to do with it. They took refuge among the natives at Round Valley.

    Looks like we’re surrounded Tonto.

    What do you mean we, Quinosave?

  97. Trump, as a politically connected New York builder, knows very well what the Wall is supposed to be. A vehicle to milk the taxpayers and profit himself, his family, and connected builders. Think the Big Dig or the Second Avenue Subway, or other white elephant projects that take decades to finish. He is a first class rogue who got what he wanted from the rubes who believed his schtick, and you guys fell for it.

    • Replies: @EliteComminc.
  98. @Hare Krishna

    If we are going to engage in using tax dollars for said projects, I would rather see the money spent on US citizens.

    I disagree with the suggestion that candidate Trump was whistling Dixie. He may have caved in on his agenda. He may have seen the instruments of torture and decided he rather jump on board the liberal immigration wagon. But a claim that he was only peddling ju ju beans is speculative and convenient rhetoric from the losing side.

    It’s possible, but given the history of political agendas that don’t get met by candidates, there’s plenty of reasons beyond — the candidate was squishing oil from snakes. i tend to think he just wasn’t willing to risk the political costs against other projects and there is this,

    It’s only a year in. Time isn’t yet running out.

  99. Isabella says:

    May I, as a non-American who has read some History and watches the continent from a safe distance and in some bemusement, say a word?

    I understand that the main grief Americans have is that Mexicans keep leaving Mexico to emerge in the “border” states – Arizona, New Mexico, California and such. Right?
    However, I also understand that – not too long ago – those places were , er, Mexico. !! ??? right???
    That, in fact, Northern America of Anglo Saxons [trying to kill off First Nations people], invaded in a blatant land grab. Even the hard core invader and killer, General Grant, conceded as much. Yes??

    So, it seems to me there is a simple, quick, and cheap option for a people keening on about Russia accepting her historical peninsula , Crimea, back into the Motherland, and being accused of “annexation”.
    Just give the damn places back. Give all the places America stole from Mexico, back to Mexico. Then all the er, you know, “thief’s, rapists” etc etc will be living in Mexico, and wont be your problem.
    You might even get some kudos for finally acting with grace and honesty towards brown people. !!

  100. @AnotherDad

    And notice another thing that Fred dares not to mention. Mexico is building a wall on their southern border to keep out Central and South Americans from overrunning their nation.

    Why is that okay for Mexico to build a wall on its southern border but its not okay for the US to build a wall on its southern border?

    Huh, Fred?

  101. @Isabella

    Yeah, we’ll do that when Mexico gives back all the land it stole from the Indians. Oops.

    I understand that this was done by Spaniards but Mexicans can and should act nobly and graciously give back all the land they stole and are currently living on. Where should they go? Perhaps they could emigrate to Spain.

  102. MEFOBILLS says:
    @Steve Gittelson

    I believe that brief prison terms for owners/CEOs would be salutatory. Fines that increment daily, plus jail-time.

    Congress is run by lawyers. Lawyers in turn take their “fees” really bribes from monied interests. These monied interests are in turn the financial sector, and elements of corporate sectors.

    Chambers of Commerce are just fine with illegal aliens, as said aliens represent low wages. Go ahead, do some research and find out if any Chamber of Commerce’s and business interests are against illegal immigration. Democrats and Liberals go along with immigration as dupes to elect a new population.

    Capital must be always be over labor, and to take wage arbitrage is just fine, because you know-supposed low prices are all that matter. Never mind that these low prices cost shift a burden onto middle class in form of higher taxes, to then fund schools, medical, and welfare.

    Congress puppets would never put fines on their masters.

    If you want prison terms, then it won’t be a “democracy” doing it. Democracy has shown itself to be easily manipulated and controlled by Plutocracy.

  103. @Isabella

    I understand that the main grief Americans have is that Mexicans keep leaving Mexico to emerge in the “border” states – Arizona, New Mexico, California and such. Right?.. No, wrong.

    You understand wrong, Isabella. Mexicans and people from south of there, esp. Guatamala, are in big numbers in almost every state of the Union. You sound like you’re trying to understand, but you’d have to get around just a bit to know what’s really going on here.

    Illegal aliens of all sorts live even at the crossroads, in the middle of nowhere far, far from the American Southwest, they are not assimilating in any way and the favoritism toward them is a form of anarcho-tyranny (“It’s more fun, bein’ an Illegal Alien”, in the (almost) words of Phil Collins. You’ve got to realize, Isabella, that these are not your father’s illegal aliens.

    The number bandied about for 20 years of 11,000,000 illegal aliens is just pure rectal extraction. My rectal extraction methods, having gone through a Q/A constant-improvement process, give me something like 25,000,000 and maybe higher.

    You might even get some kudos for finally acting with grace and honesty towards brown people. !!

    You need to write about things you actually know about, and not so much bullshit off the TV, if you want some kudos around these parts.

  104. @KenH

    Has he not heard of the great wall of China which was built (or rather rebuilt with stone and brick) starting 650 years ago?

    The Great Wall took anywhere from 2 to 20 centuries to build, depending on which additions and rebuilds you count. Fred’s calculations assume a somewhat shorter time frame.

    A virtual “wall”, consisting of vigorous enforcement of existing laws, an end to public assistance for all immigrants (legal or otherwise) and a militarized border patrol with orders to treat illegal border-crossers as invaders, would be a wonderful thing. Without these, I fear that an actual physical wall would be to border control what TSA is to airline security.

    I also have my doubts that Trump was ever serious about border control. Why should he be? His businesses benefit from cheap labor as much as any others.

  105. 1rw says:

    Fred is dumb, or rather he hopes we are. So is Trump. We can build a wall for under 10 Billion. We will use prefab construction units called 40 ft containers. One mile is 137 container lengths. We can double stack them and fill the bottom ones with dirt, preferably by forcing various illegal criminals to shovel dirt in. This will create a 17’ high wall if 274 containers per mile. We’ll stick weld them together. They will also make for a nice broad walkway on top for patrolling. For 2000 miles one needs roughly 550,000 units. At $5,000 each That’s about 2.6 billion. We could cut that in half by getting used ones, so $1.3 Billion. Spend another 8.7 on construction costs. These things only weigh 4000 lbs or so empty. So trucking them out isn’t terrible. Once on site, they can be filled with 10’s of thousands of pounds of dirt making them well nigh immovable. The dirt of course will be right there. Locally sourced and environmentally friendly. Spacious, Mad Max chic container forts where border patrol agents can sip a cold one while observing the border as if from a blind can be constructed within line of site from each other, half a mile apart on average. Using 8 extra containers for this will give you 16 per mile, 32,000 total which, at 2.5 k per unit is a cool $80 mil.

    So there Fred, this can be quite reasonable if you actually want to do it, ha ha

  106. Roman says:
    @Isabella

    You seem angry Isabella, please calm down. It is not the Internet’s fault the lack of love you seem to be suffering from.

    Now, about your suggestion:

    You wrongly believe Mexicans are Americans’ main concern. As I understand it, and also watching the continent from a distance, Americans simply do not know who the fuck the border crossers are, in which numbers, from which countries they come and what exactly the f*ckin purpose of their visit is dear Isabella, that is why, quite sensibly, people in the US, and I can tell you also in Europe, are eager to have proper border controls, for which purpose a physical barrier or wall is, when feasible, of great help.

    And about your silly theory on which Americans should return territories they have been living in for generations as a compensation:

    The problem here, sweet Isabella, is that if those territories were to become Mexico again, the “brown people” living in them would promptly cross once more into the US, because — I suspect — what they really want is to live in the US, not Mexico you silly woman. Duh!

  107. Ron Unz says:

    Well, I hate to interject a discordant note in this long and heated comment-thread, but I will anyway.

    It looks like almost every commenter is arguing about the best way to build Trump’s Wall. I ask “Why?”

    Almost everyone who pays any attention to immigration issues knows perfectly well that there’s really no huge difference between *legal* immigrants and *illegal* immigrants, at least if you exclude something like the most elite 10% of the former category. Most of the more prominent anti-immigration analysts or politicians are too chicken or PC to point this out, but it’s true nonetheless.

    Now over the last decade or so, something like 95% of all net immigration to America has been legal, and just a sliver has been of the illegal variety. Furthermore, a substantial fraction of even that group originally enters legally on visas, and then just overstays.

    Maybe I’m just dense, but it seems to me that even a wall on the Mexican border that was 700 feet tall and protected by land-mines and automatically-firing machine guns wouldn’t be very effective at blocking *legal* immigration. And that probably constitutes well over 95% of the “immigration problem”…

    So why, again, is everyone arguing so vociferously about this silly “Wall”?.

    The comment-threads of my website are endless sources of mild amusement to me when I happen to take a break from my difficult software work…

  108. 1RW says:

    Because that’s what the article is about

  109. Roman says:

    Haters gonna hate : )

    Do you have any sources to back up your claim that only 5% or less of the immigrants get into the US via illegal crossing of the US-Mexican border?

    How illegal immigrants and crossing are quantified? do traffickers send reports to the authorities? Is there someone counting heads via satellite? via drone perhaps?

    I am really curious in respect to the methodology based on which such claims are made, and I think such information and methodologies, if accurate, would greatly calm population’s concerns.

    Perhaps it would help to put this whole silly Wall of Trump to sleep for good.

    Still, and because I suspect the social composition of the participants in that type of crossing is the poorest and most uneducated, among which it is most likely to find the wanted criminals and other fellows not keen on undergoing inmigration controls at airports and official entry points, this 4-6% reduction could greatly help the US’ working classes and people living at the border.

    Still, 4-6% of 1 million is 40k-60k, of which it is claimed that 10-15% commit 100 percent of the crimes by illegals, which leaves us with a cool 4 to 6k undesirables a year less roaming the US’ streets.

    On the other hand, if you could cure 4-6% of all cancer patients with a certain compound, would you find it appropriate to dedicate the necessary resources to research and develop such a compound?

    I thought so.

  110. Roman says:
    @Ron Unz

    Comment 115 was meant to be a response to your comment.

  111. @Ron Unz

    Roman stated much of what I was going to write since I read your comment, Mr. Unz (can’t sit at the computer all day, and don’t like touch screens a whole lot), but I’ve gotta agree with 1RW too. That’s what the post was about, right? There are lots of posts, by Mr. Sailer, in particular, on the massive legal side of this deliberately-created immigration invasion. Most of the commenters here would have plenty to say on that too. I know you can’t read that many of the comments, so maybe you missed some of that.

    It’s not just that just the post was on illegal immigration from Mexico. Mr. Reed may have gotten lots of comments (perhaps the whole point of it) due to his writing in this sanctimonious style, and again about stuff that he admits in the 1st paragraph he’s no expert on. Now, I like Fred’s writing style, but it goes along well with the truth, not with a bunch of BS brought on by his new-found Mexicanity. It’s true that I don’t have to read Reed, but then I enjoy the ability to get in some truthful words to appear under a load of rubbish. It just feels good, and I thank you for the extremely well-working and extremely usable site.

    I’ll write another one to address my political points in a few minutes.

  112. @Ron Unz

    I seriously doubt the ratio is 5% illegal to 95% legal. As Roman said, just by the definition illegal, we are not going to get good numbers. Even if it were only a ratio of 1:4 – illegal:legal, that’s the flow, but particularly regarding our southern border, the accumulation of many decades of it being open mean that there are 10′s of millions of illegal aliens from Mexico and south, and that’s an encouragement for even more. There is no assimilation in areas that are near 1/2 Chicano, errr Latino , errr Hispanic? To the border jumpers, going north or south is not much different anymore from a northerner heading down to Florida for spring break.

    It’s like a revolving door, and you must know that from the stories of arrested illegals that have been deported 2-5 times already. Kate Steinle’s killer is just one example, but there are 1000′s of fatalities from Mexican wasted drivers whose manslaugherers (sorry, not a real word) have been deported before, often multiple times. The border barrier, of whatever sort, should be like a diode, not a 2-guage piece of copper wire (OK, for the mechanicals, like a check valve rather than a 4″ ID smooth-walled pipe).

    I agree with you that much of illegal immigration comes from visa overstayers, as the Feral gov’t does not want to take this seriously. (No, it’s not stupidity, or just not reading enough Ann Coulter.) However, that is mostly NOT the hispanic people. That is more a factor of the millions of illegal aliens from the Orient, and especially China*. I don’t think is a large contingent of the Chinese illegals that come via the southern border, but then again what about a few Moslems that possibly have a justifiable grudge against us. How many is low enough on that score?

    Yes, Ron, the legal invasion must be drastically curtailed, but you can’t leave a big open hole on one side if you’re really going to put a stop to massive immigration period.

    .
    .

    * I wrote here about the out-of-the-way places in rural America where you’ll still run into illegal aliens from all over the world. I have inside knowledge of the Chinese portion of this, and some would be very surprised at how organized the process is.

  113. I just realized, though related, I didn’t put the link in that I wanted to. It should have been “It’s more fun, bein’ an illegal alien!”, but this is about the part I wanted to relate to Mr. Unz re: the Chinese contingent (no argument with your comment here, BTW):

    The number of illegal Chinese residents may be much more of a surprise to Americans. If you don’t live in a medium or large size city (IN the city that is, not the ‘burbs”) you may not know, as Chinese people LUV the city, as described here. You won’t find out easily without being with someone who knows the language, but much of the help at the myriad of Chinese restaurants in medium and even smaller towns are illegal Chinese people. Add in the massive amounts of people in the Chinatowns of NYC and the west coast cities, and just simple estimates can get one over 2,000,000. I will admit that is just a 1/2 order-of-magnitude guess – let’s say 1 – 3 million. No, most do not cross over from Mexico, Canada, or ride in shipping containers. Most come via some type of visa, but overstay forever. The US does not have any good system being used to track exits, as THEY DON’T WANT TO DO IT, or the elites DON’T WANT THEM TO!

    The quick tie-in to the anarcho-tyranny thing here is that both of these sectors of the population residing in America are living in some ways, especially economically, freer than the sector under tyranny. Oh, they can’t get SS, they don’t do paperwork, so they can’t work for IBM or Google, you say? Yeah, but that’s the point – no paperwork, no taxes, working as real free agents. Were the 16th Amendment to the US Constitution (on allowing the Feral Gov’t to collect income tax) not around, we’d all live like illegal Mexicans and Chinese in a good way. “What do I do for a living, Gov’t man? None of your damn bidness gringo!” Let me not get into right here the paperwork many illegal aliens (2nd-hand info.) do manage to fill out – that of the Earned Income Credit – to get some of you middle-class folks’ tax money. They do get into H&R Block for that stuff. In addition, some of the illegal (and legal) Chinese, being always more savvy, will get on all the taxpayer money-redistribution programs they’ve heard of on We-Chat, say WIC, Medicare, what have you, even when making a GOOD LIVING in cash.

    [cut]

  114. Roman says:
    @Ron Unz

    Came accross this seemingly nuanced article in Bloomberg, which claims and I quote

    In a 2013 report, the Council on Foreign Relations estimated that Border Patrol’s success rate was in the 40 percent to 55 percent range. The Institute for Defense Analyses, a nonprofit, nonpartisan research group that works solely for U.S. government agencies, estimates that about 200,000 people made it across in 2015—down from an estimated 2 million entries in 2000.

    The 2013 report

    https://www.cfr.org/report/managing-illegal-immigration-united-states

    The IDA report

    http://cis.org/sites/cis.org/files/Border-Crossing-Stats-Report.pdf

    Bloomberg’s article claiming it is hard to say with certainty how many people cross illegaly into the US from Mexico every year

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-mexico-wall/how-many-people-currently-cross/

    Now assuming a conservative Border Patrol’s 50% apprehension rate, and given the number of 300k apprehensions in 2017, down from 375k in 2016, would that leave us with a non-trivial 200k to 300k succesful crossings a year? and this 300k would leave us with 20k to 45k undesirables roaming the US’ streets, assuming the claim that 10-15% of illegals commit 100% of crimes commited by illegal immigrants is true?

    If accurate, and I am not getting those numbers from Breitbart, this is far from your 5% but rather a 20 – 30% of the total immigration “official” numbers of 1 million a year, which would make the construction of that wall entirely justified, in my humble opinion of course.

  115. Let’s be honest. The only reason Fred is so engaged in this issue is because he married down and doesn’t want to have that rubbed in his face. Making a political decision that Mexicans and other mestizos do not benefit this country forces him to have to justify his !Jeb¡ decision.

  116. @SteveRogers42

    Great idea, fortifying the perimeter with military personnel. This could be done but isn’t there some law about using the military for this purpose. I’d be all for it, bring back the thousands of troops we have standing guard duty in all the various countries around the world. The USA spends millions and perhaps billions providing housing and transportation for their spouses and children. It would be great for local economies instead of propping up the economies of all the countries we occupy.

  117. Excal says:
    @Ron Unz

    I think this is a point well worth considering. No matter the ratio, in the United States, given the current regime, I do think there isn’t much difference between most of the legals and most of the illegals. If that’s the case, the wall won’t solve everything.

    It could solve some real problems for people who live and work along the border, though. Arizonans can tell amazing (and quite true) stories about the border regions. A wall would slow those things down — possibly to a trickle. If it works for the Israelis, who are defending against even more motivated invaders, it can work here.

    But will the wall solve anything for people in small midwestern towns who are suddenly being sued because the town council doesn’t conduct meetings in Spanish? Not at all. The immigrants are the result of immigration and trade law; those laws are the result of extremely misguided thinking and a poisoned culture. Take away the bad laws, and the bad thinking remains. The problem won’t begin to be solved until it’s attacked at the root, and I don’t see that happening at all. Nobody’s even talking about it.

    That said, I would far rather see money spent on the wall than on refugee resettlement programs.

  118. CaperAsh says:

    I like Fred Reed, but this is one of his sillier pieces – mainly because he goes overboard on math based on wild assumptions. I too am no expert on Big Wall Building but:
    a) nobody is talking about 2,000 miles. Not even close. So throw all those numbers out the window. I believe they are actually considering more like 350-600 miles.

    b) why can’t concrete be made in situ using molds and multiple parallel crews? i.e. 100 crews doing 2 sections a day = 200 sections a day. Probably only need 10-20 concrete-making trucks, plus 10-20 trucks bringing in the dry mix, plus some sort of system to bring in sufficient water as needed, either by more trucks or regular airdrops or whatever. Yes, a big job, but ultimately it is not all that much more massive on a crew/equipment basis per day than major highway or skyscraper work – just might take a few more days than most such projects. Trump, btw, says he can get it done easily in a year. (see c..)

    c) Lest he forgot: Trump is one of the US’s most experienced builders. So far from having only boffins in the WH, we have the most qualified Chief Executive for this relatively simple – though large – project, not to mention reviving the nation’s infrastructure altogether. Despise him all you like, but at least let him have a crack at the Wall and Infrastructure. He’ll come in under budget and on time.

  119. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  120. Thomm says:
    @Ron Unz

    Maybe I’m just dense,

    Let me excise the ‘maybe’ and confirm this as a fact. You are dense.

    The comment-threads of my website are endless sources of mild amusement to me when I happen to take a break from my difficult software work…

    The software work is difficult simply because you are not very bright at value-added work. You are, however, quite adept at being a ‘Divide and Conquer Jew’. I reject 99% of the hatred WNs direct towards Jews, but in the case of Ron Unz, their assessment of him is true.

    To answer the question :

    Others have explained this to Ron Unz for years, but I will say it again : an ILLEGAL has already set a precedent about breaking laws. An unskilled LEGAL immigrant, while still undesirable, nonetheless has not started out his life in the United States with lawbreaking as his very first action. This matters, as it is a predictor of whether the person will respect other laws in the future.

  121. How Mexico deals with brown[er] people on its own southern border:

    Mexico tortures migrants
    …Amy and Esther Juárez … boarded the bus full of seasonal workers heading for a farm
    …immigration agents boarded the bus, and after checking all the passengers’ papers, ordered the three siblings to get off.
    … The officials accused them of carrying false documents … Then they told the youngsters that they would be deported to Guatemala, a country none would have been able to place on a map.
    …The baffled youngsters – who speak the Mayan language Tzeltal but very little Spanish – were transferred to an immigration holding centre in Queretero city.
    …Alberto, 18, was taken into a separate room by four agents who told him that unless he signed documents admitting he was Guatemalan, would die there.
    …“One pushed me, another was kicking my leg, and a third who was very fat gave me an electric shock here, on the back of my right hand,”

  122. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  123. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  124. From your calculations each section would use less than six cubic yards of concrete. I pay around $100 per cubic yard in a major metro area. At $600 per section for raw materials (I would assume costs will be cheaper in Texas), all the sections will cost 3/4 of a billion dollars for just the concrete.

    There is the powder and there is the water, pretty sure a mobile mixer exists, then all you need is a truck and a pump truck.

    The walls can be poured in place and makes the most sense. They can be poured standing, or poured on the ground and stood in place.

    Some of the lower prices are feasible.

    Of course the wall could be a red herring… art of the deal and all.

  125. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  126. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  127. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  128. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  129. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  130. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  131. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  132. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  133. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  134. Pat says:
    @Bragadocious

    Despite Fred’s brilliant calculations walls have been built. Perhaps a fence will suffice in some locations. The wall has the advantage that the number of guards could be minimized. Fences, walls, sensors, cameras and personnel can seal the border.

    About 50,000 people die from drug overdoses every year and most of the drugs are coming from Mexico. The drugs will find other ways to enter the country but the amounts can be reduced. Countless illegals cross the border and put a drain on schools, hospitals and welfare systems. Other policies such as E-verify can support the border control problem. Just hoping it all stops has not worked. Giving up on the USA is despicable.

  135. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  136. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  137. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  138. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  139. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  140. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  141. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  142. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  143. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  144. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  145. MEH 0910 says:
    @MEH 0910

Current Commenter
says:

Leave a Reply - Comments on articles more than two weeks old will be judged much more strictly on quality and tone


 Remember My InformationWhy?
 Email Replies to my Comment
Submitted comments become the property of The Unz Review and may be republished elsewhere at the sole discretion of the latter
Subscribe to This Comment Thread via RSS Subscribe to All Fred Reed Comments via RSS
Personal Classics
Not What Tom Jefferson Had in Mind
Sounds Like A Low-Ranked American University To Me
Very Long, Will Bore Hell Out Of Most People, But I Felt Like Doing It
It's Not A Job. It's An Adventure.
Cloudy, With Possible Tidal Wave