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I hope the reader will be tolerant of an eruption of pent-up irritation. While I do not think that encouraging mass immigration from Mexico is a good idea, and never have thought it, I weary of seeing Mexicans unreasonably and inaccurately vilified by dweebs, literati, and minor-league thunderers reminiscent of what’s-his-name who drew pictures in Vienna. Mexicans belong in Mexico. They are, however, perfectly good people, or as good as any other–a feeble recommendation, I grant–and in several ways superior to our collapsing Caligula-by-Disney circus-tent of a country. So there.

Permit me a searing insight (the only kind this column has.) Hispanics, particularly Mexicans, are and will be a large part of America. The Fat Lady has sung. It might therefore be a good idea to know something about them, what they are and are not, and what they may do. Oddly, I encounter little interest, even–or especially–from those who excoriate them. Instead the web resounds with angry baying at everything Spanish by people who seem to be descended, though not very far, from emotionally retarded pit bulls. I wonder what purpose is served by their hostility and misrepresentation.

Chief among the bayers is John Derbyshire of Taki’s Magazine. Most people have never heard of him (or of me, which I find incomprehensible) but he is a perfect example, probably Plato’s ideal, of a hostile thunderer. John unrelentingly savages Mexicans, expressing himself with the nuanced objectivity of a prom queen who has discovered a rival. For John, there is nothing–nothing—good about any Mexican. They are stupid. They have no family values. Their music is terrible. He cannot conceive of a Mexican’s having an idea.

None of this describes the Mexico I live in. Nor does it describe the Mexicans I have met in the US. The grinding hatred reminds me of an anti-Simite I once knew: “Hey, Fred, how’s it going? Now why do the goddam Jews think they can….” On and on. And on. And on, until I wanted to scream, “Yes! Yes! The Jews poison wells. They sacrifice Christian children. It’s all true. Now can you just shut up about it?”

I question John’s standing in the matter. John, an immigrant from England, now thinks himself an American. He is no more American than I am a Mexican. That is, we are both legally present in someone else’s country. He is certainly less American than those Mexican-Americans whose families have been in the US since 1848.

I worry that he is not assimilating. Well, a little. He has learned pretty fair English. This is to be admired in someone whose native language presumably is Urdu. But…American? It is impossible to imagine him pulling a catfish out of Machodoc Creek with a cane pole on a summer afternoon. Or dancing a fast double-step jitterbug in a rural dive on the Potomac with Little Richard squalling Long Tall Sally. Or getting skinned for quarters at nine-ball in Bradshaw’s Pool Hall at three a.m. on a snowy night. You might as well imagine me trying to be a duke. As someone said, you are not a car just because you are in a garage.

See? I can be unreasoningly anti-immigrant too.

If I were to speak to John, it would be in this wise:

You will be astonished, John, (not to say disappointed) to learn that Mexicans are pretty close to human, and even competent at many things. They dress themselves, brush their teeth, and live in houses. They also run telecommunications and airlines, trouble-shoot routers, and engineer highways and bridges in wicked terrain. (There, there. Sit down. Take a deep breath. Calm yourself. You will be all right in a few minutes.)

They do other things. Let me use medicine as an illustrative thunderclap. Mexican doctors—brace yourself–do not effect cures by sacrificing chickens. They regularly handle dialysis, implant stents, perform surgery. I know somewhat of this. I have myself had locally a fluorescein angiogram, optical-coherence tomography, optical echosonogram, an MRI for a rotator-cuff problem, and the usual dentistry. John, there was not a chicken in evidence.


Puerta de Hierro Hospital, Guadalajara. It is actually an adobe hut, but has been extensively PhotoShopped.

A gringo I know recently had a pacemaker installed. He reports that the surgeon did not open his chest with an obsidian knife atop a pyramid.

Really. Honest. I swear it.

Worse and worse, John: A while ago we took a ninety-year-old friend, who had fallen and wrecked a vertebra, to the St. Javier Hospital in Guadalajara. The surgeon drilled holes in the bone, inserted balloons which when inflated restored the vertebra to the proper shape, filled the holes with linoleum cement (well, some kind of cement) and, when it had hardened properly, discharged him. Outpatient procedure. Worked fine.


St. Javier Hospital of the Linoleum Cement. The far room is used for chanting and doing things with the heads of goats.

(OK, OK, I concede that we did have to bring chickens, but only as a backup. The surgeons prefer white ones, and light little fires around them.)


A medical chicken, Guadalajara.

A million American expatriates live in Mexico, John. If it were as benighted and awful as you believe, don’t you think they might, like, you know—have noticed?

Nah.

I suspect that your perturbations and uproars are genetic. (I said this column was going to ramble.) You are, I think, a believer in genetic determinism. You are also a conservative, and conservatives always growl fearfully at the twisting shadows without, and within, just as liberals squeak and gibber and say “Goo! Goo!” Such perfect consistency must be genetic.

ORDER IT NOW

(Since you are something of a biochemist. In conservatives the gene Ahlim3f codes for the protein 3,5-diphenyl-polywanacrakerase which in the brain acts on the medial gyrunculus to reactivate the ancestral reptilian limbic system. Consider John McCain. Liberals are protected by another protein, associated chiefly with butterflies, which prevents the synthesis.)

Next: Race. I am informed that you are on a crusade, giddyap giddyap Rocinante, to keep America white. I think this would have been a good idea, while feasible. Diversity is usually more trouble than it is worth, and often a catastrophe. Diversity is what we have, though, as a matter of deliberate and continuing American policy, and maybe we should make the best of it. Or decide how bad it really is.

I do think your personal approach to the maintenance of whiteness–you imported a brown wife to the United States and had a brood of mestizo children—seems a curious one, rather like screwing for virginity. Since I too am a race traitor, and have a brown wife and mestizo stepdaughter, I commend your choice, but it does look an awful lot like hypocrisy.

Anyway: Since there will be lots of Mexicans in America no matter how much we grind our teeth, shriek, or hold our breath and turn blue, a reasonable question might be: How well can Mexicans and gringos get along? Not how well will they get along: this depends on economics, concentrations, schooling, hostility from the indigenes and excited net-hamsters, and whether the immigrants are corrupted by the welfare system. What is the best case? How well can they get along?

Well. Or so I think. I do not have your vast experience with Mexicans, John, and so I am groping in the dark. Fortunately I had some practice with the technique as a teenager. Mayhap I can provide useful insights.

Everywhere that I am aware of in Mexico, relations are good. Everywhere I have actually been in the United States, relations have also been good. This includes Houston, San Antonio, New York City, Washington, DC and, in Chicago, Berwyn and Pilsen. On the other hand, locals returning from the States report hostility in Arizona and in many towns across the country. Friends in law enforcement tell of young Mexicans adopting the dress and behavior ot the black underclass. Bad. Very bad.

I offer for your inspection this thought: It is a question of class, not race. People of different races and cultures seldom get along, unless they are of the middle class, when attachment to refrigerators and monster TVs usually (but not always) provides a commonality precluding warfare. I deal daily with Mexicans of the middle class (many of them we would call lower middle class.) About half the country now fits this description. There is no problem.

Middle classes, everywhere that I know of anyway, have small families, school their children, wash behind their ears, and seldom rob banks or kill the neighbors. (Well, maybe on weekends.) There is nothing in Mexican culture that is inherently immiscible with Americanity. They do not genitally mutilate their daughters or make them wear funny-looking bags, and do send them to university when they can. They don’t do arranged marriages or honor killings. They are slightly Catholic (they ignore the parts about fornication, contraception, and adultery as much as everybody else) and don’t want to convert everybody else. If them pesky Messkins, beaners, and Pedros makes it to middle class, things will probably go tolerably. We had better hope.

On the other hand, if large numbers become a permanent, resentful welfare-and-affirmative-action underclass, God help the Republic, if any. The welfare system endeavors exactly that.

If I were a curmudgeonly cynic (which assuredly I am not) I might ask: How, having invited them in and put them on welfare, can the US complain that they are in, and on welfare?

I assume, John, that you, having been brought up in a castle—all Englishmen are brought up in castles, I believe—will look with practiced and well-oiled disdain upon the notion that Mexicans might not be stupid. I grant that it is a gut-wrenching idea. But sometimes we must bear up under vicissitudes. (And please, don’t do your Central-Casting lordliness. It is wearying.) But the lovingly held notion of the 87 IQ of Mexicans just doesn’t square with observtion. (Yes, yes, I know, observation has no place in IQ studies.) There are way too many smart Mexicans, doing way too many difficult things (see above) for the theory of 87 to work.

But I wander. Let us talk about crime by Mexicans. I have always had reservations about the crime business. In twelve years in Mexico I have walked without concern in a dozen cities and dozens of towns—all without incident. I do not doubt that you have had many bad experiences in your extensive travels in Mexico. (You will of course have made such journeys.) But I have not.

Even in the US, the situation doesn’t seem to me to be as stark as you would like. Certainly the cartels are neck-deep in the drug trade, in which no whites are involved. But beyond this? In middle-class regions crime is very low, which might argue for wanting them to enter the middle class as soon as possible. But that, and thus not in conformity with the national character.

I refer you to a study (which I very much encourage the reading of) by the best numerical analyst of my acquaintance—Ron Unz: you may know somewhat of him, John—who concluded that Hispanic crime is not much greater than white. There is La Griffe du Lion, probably a renegade math prof at Harvard or MIT, who did an exhaustive analysis and concluded “the data show that violent crime rates for Hispanics and non-Hispanic whites, though a bit higher for Hispanics, are in actual fact quite similar. As for blacks, their crime rate remains by any measure uniquely high.” Excluding the narcos (very low-class) that is the situation where I live.

ORDER IT NOW

Ah well. Supper calls and night falls. I will release the guard dogs, double-bolt the doors, electrify the concertina, arm the Claymores, set the alarm systems, and adjourn to the rooftop patio with my AR15 for a few Bloody Marys to ward off the ever-encroaching fear. I hope we will still be around tomorrow.

(Republished from Fred on Everything by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Immigration, John Derbyshire, Mexico 
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  1. Chill out, Fred! I’ve been reading John Derbyshire for many years and I’ve never sensed the kind of hostility to Mexico and Mexicans that you attribute to him. He’s certainly not an advocate of mass Mexican immigration, but I think he’s just fine with Mexicans in Mexico. I even remember him comparing Mexico favorably to Arabia and sub-Saharan Africa, although I admit that’s a low standard.

    I rather suspect that Mexican immigrants to the U.S. are not the elite of Mexican society. In any event, how do Mexicans feel about central Americans? Could a Nicaraguan or a Guatamalan write a similar column about how unfairly Mexicans regard the culture and achievements of their people and countries?

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    • Replies: @grey enlightenment
    I concur. Derb doesn't hate Mexicans; he hates illegal immigration. Does he think Mexicans, on the aggregate, are are less intelligent than Europeans, possibly, but he doesn't discuss that much on his podcast.
    , @Ragno
    Derbyshire responds to Fred's column in today's VDare. Like most of us, he's a little mystified by it all.
    , @Jeff77450
    Very well said.
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  2. Nice stuff Fred, you’d make a decent satirist with a bit of effort. Here’s a dig you missed thought when stating:

    “He is certainly less American than those Mexican-Americans whose famiies have been in the US since 1848″

    You could have added that this was a case of the border migrating, not the Mexicans.

    Insofar as multiculturalism being a failure, I couldn’t agree more; and John Derbyshire (that names right out of Robin Hood, right?) is solid ‘basil-ganglia’ conservative evidence of why:

    http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/10/09/liberals/

    ^

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    • Replies: @silviosilver

    You could have added that this was a case of the border migrating, not the Mexicans.
     
    Lol. Mexico's claim on the western USA had as much validity as my claim on Antarctica.
    , @WJ
    Mexican American families living in the US since 1848 are simply Americans/US citizens. What is the point in this statement? Are Italians Americans not also American citizens despite having been in the country for over one hundred years? It's an absurd comparison.

    Millions of additional true Mexicans, and Hondurans and Salvadorans, etc. are not US citizens. They have no concept of the US culture and when they come in massive waves they have no interest or motivation to learn the culture. They will end this country.

    So we are supposed to commit national suicide because Fred Reed (and Jeb Bush) has a Mexican wife?
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  3. The question is : how much of this modernity is originally from Mexico vs. imported? How many of these doctors are Hispanic vs. other ethnicity? Second, these are the accomplishments of Mexicans that reside on the right side of the bell curve, of witch by virtue of the distribution there will always be some geniuses for any sufficiently large population, but the most pertinent question is what is the average and median IQ? I disagree with Derb on some things too, including on some aspects of immigration. I think America benefits from high-IQ immigration, but Derb thinks otherwise.

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  4. @Diversity Heretic
    Chill out, Fred! I've been reading John Derbyshire for many years and I've never sensed the kind of hostility to Mexico and Mexicans that you attribute to him. He's certainly not an advocate of mass Mexican immigration, but I think he's just fine with Mexicans in Mexico. I even remember him comparing Mexico favorably to Arabia and sub-Saharan Africa, although I admit that's a low standard.

    I rather suspect that Mexican immigrants to the U.S. are not the elite of Mexican society. In any event, how do Mexicans feel about central Americans? Could a Nicaraguan or a Guatamalan write a similar column about how unfairly Mexicans regard the culture and achievements of their people and countries?

    I concur. Derb doesn’t hate Mexicans; he hates illegal immigration. Does he think Mexicans, on the aggregate, are are less intelligent than Europeans, possibly, but he doesn’t discuss that much on his podcast.

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    • Replies: @silviosilver
    Rubbish. Derbyshire is unquestionably convinced that Mexicans are significantly dumber than whites and the legally importing millions of them is an extremely unwise idea.
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  5. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    A million American expatriates live in Mexico, John. If it were as benighted and awful as you believe, don’t you think they might, like, you know—have noticed?

    America in the future will look a lot like Mexico does today, plus the Asians and several troublesome minority groups Mexico is mostly free of. The trains will still run, usually on time. Doctors, many of them Asian, will still practice. Bankers will make obscene amounts of money and act like they “created” it. Corruption will increase. For the upper middle class, life won’t be all that bad. They’ll still live in their suburban houses, send their 1.7 children to upper middle class schools, and think they’re superior to the rest of the world, though it will be harder for the rational-minded to believe. There won’t be much patriotism, the nation will be divided between self hating White people, NAMs who think “society” is oppressing them, and conservative White people who will eventually realize that it isn’t their country anymore. Even though the country will be “socialist,” the elites won’t feel much loyalty to the people or desire to give their money away, it will be Mexico style socialism, not Swedish style socialism. There will be no spare money around for Manhattan projects or moon landings, and it will be obvious to unbiased historians that it is China’s century. I can’t think of many ways it will be BETTER than 20th century America beyond the technology, there might be less tolerance for the Blacks or willingness to wage dumb wars abroad. And that’s the standard we should be using, not comparing it to the primitive barbarism of Africa, as you seem to. The two groups who will be really harmed by the development will be:

    1. The working class. Just look at the working class in Mexico.
    2. Those, mostly religious Christians, who value traditional sexual morality. The percentage of Mexicans who have no family values is far higher than the percentage of Americans.

    But neither the left nor the neoconservative right cares about those people.

    I sometimes read the “Alternate History Discussion Board:

    http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/

    To imagine the future, imagine a website populated by Chinese college students in 2070, auguring, in Chinese, about the question “what would history look like had The USA restricted it’s immigration policy to Western Europeans? Would it be a second rate power today?”

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    • Replies: @hrw-500
    @Paik.

    Speaking of Alternate History discussion board; I spotted some threads about more whites in South Africa or a larger South Africa who could had included Southern Rhodesia if Southern Rhodesia had voted in the 1924 referendum to join the Union of South Africa.
    http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=94186
    http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=261764
    http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=283350
    http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=223872

    And while we talk also about South Africa, Steve Sailer as well as Mike Smith http://www.unz.com/isteve/south-african-blacks-going-all-district-9-on-aliens/
    http://mikesmithspoliticalcommentary.blogspot.ca/2015/04/xenofobia-sweeps-through-durban-what.html
    posted a blog post about the current situation between natives and immigrants
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  6. Darling Fred:

    You are almost always a delight to read. Not this time. It is becoming tiresome reading your paeans to the glorious Mexican Civilization. You are insulting your readers at Unz.com.

    Yes, Mexico doubtless has hospitals as good as the U.S. I’m sure that it has many fine Ph.D.’s in electrical engineering and chemical engineering and aerospace science and so on. Mexico can build highways as well as the French or Swedes and, if your Apple computer has a glitch, there are clever fellows in Guadalajara who can fix it. These are not the people who are filling the prisons of California and collecting welfare in Arizona.

    What Derbyshire and his ilk are saying is: If your brilliant Ph.D. Mexicans are so great, why don’t they fill out the paperwork and come here legally, as the almost-equally brilliant Ph.D.’s from Singapore and China and Slovenia have to do, instead of fording the Rio Bravo in violation of our laws?

    Got a clever comeback for that, amigo?

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    • Replies: @Stan D Mute

    What Derbyshire and his ilk are saying is: If your brilliant Ph.D. Mexicans are so great, why don’t they fill out the paperwork and come here legally, as the almost-equally brilliant Ph.D.’s from Singapore and China and Slovenia have to do, instead of fording the Rio Bravo in violation of our laws?

    Got a clever comeback for that, amigo?
     
    Dunno about Freddy, but I'll wing it. I know many Mexicans who DO immigrate legally and are ensconced as doctors, accountants, engineers, etc.

    The thing Fred fails to acknowledge is Mexico's caste system. That caste system, taken for granted in Mexico, is completely foreign to Americans taught that a Mexican is a Mexican is a Mexican. In fact, Mexico is Criollos (including Mirreyes - Google it), Mestizos, Indios, and Negros in order of status. In cities you will find Criollo doctors, lawyers, realtors, entrepreneurs, engineers, and all the professions needed for a modern society to function. These folk are assisted by Mestizos who can and do often enough rise to the professional level (but much less often to social level) of the Criollos. The Indios are the indigenous population and many still reside on ancestral ejidos. I assume it's still possible to visit a remote ejido (similar to American Indian reservation) where you might be the first white person some Indio has seen. You can be a rare enough sight to create a stir anyway. Negros are rare in just about all of Mexico with small populations in some port cities.

    Now many of the Mexicans who immigrate to Los Estados Unidos are of lower class Mestizo and Indio heredity. These are the lower average IQ Mexicans of 87 or whatever. They've failed economically, or struggled is perhaps more accurate, and come to America because America has invited them. America gives them jobs where they can send money home and it is BIG money they send back. It's Mexico's second largest source of revenue!

    The problem is America. Not Mexico. Mexico functions just fine with a very traditional society and structure. The lower classes know their place, do their job, and mainly cause trouble among themselves. They've gotten into kidnapping for ransom which Mexico needs to stamp out, but victims generally go home alive after ransom is paid anyway. Mexican elites live with it by hiring private security like Americans have lived with the Mafia for a century. The Narcotraficantes are a newer development as Mexicans captured the drug smuggling routes from Columbians and Americans who did the job in the 1970's to early 1990's. The Mexicans are no more ruthless or violent than the Columbians - just more flamboyant maybe in signaling to competitors and law enforcement. But here too, it's an American problem as WE demand the drugs and WE refuse to legitimize the business.

    If America would stop giving jobs and welfare benefits to Mexicans, the overwhelming majority would go home and live in the windowless homes (they have window openings, just no glass in them) on their family farm, ejido, or congested city block. Things would become MUCH worse in Mexico to be sure without the income from American jobs, but they'd survive. Especially as birth rates decline among mestizos and Indios, quality of life without American jobs would rise and Mexico would continue being Mexico.

    America on the other hand would still have 40 million negroes who are either refusing to work, committing crimes, or "working" government jobs that serve no purpose except that they're not welfare or jail. A tiny fraction of the negroes would still have the intelligence to succeed and some of them would do that while the overwhelming majority would try to recreate Africa in our midst. So America's leaders have decided our best course is permanently installing this Mexican population as buffer between whites and negroes. That's the bottom line reality here. Nobody knows what to do with the negroes so we install a buffer and ignore the problem hoping idiotically it will go away.
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  7. Picking John Derbyshire or Peter Brimelow for that matter as your ideological foil is complete strawmanning. It’s not like Unz Review host a far less compromised and more compelling writer that would be a far more legitimate foil namely Steve Sailer.

    As for Reed’s rather pathetic prom queen analogy (Prom Queens don’t have rivals that’s why they are the prom queen and let’s face it Mexico isn’t a rival of the U.S. in anything) Reed is like the chubby girl whose prom date is in the band but insists on claiming that her date is a better catch than the starting QB. It doesn’t really fool anyone, or make the Prom Queen mad for that matter, but it does annoy people who hate special pleading and blatant falsehoods.

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  8. Fred is off the mark in his criticism of Derb. The immigrants that Derb finds really objectionable are the ones that come from sub-Saharan Africa and/or Muslim countries. To the extent that Derb notices the Mexicans, his approach seems to be along the lines of “making our country more like their country by admitting large numbers of them is probably not a smart idea.”

    The longer Fred is in Mexico, the more he starts to sound like Jeb Bush: Mexicans are fantastic, Americans not so much.

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  9. rienzi says:

    Fred:

    My doctor is a Mexican, has a University of Guadalajara diploma on his wall. He’s a great doctor.

    However, the last time I was in Mexico I was in a minibus full of people going on a zip-line tour from Cancun. As we got south of Cancun,we saw a big roadblock, APC’s, soldiers in cammies with assault rifles. We all asked what was going on. A guy from Miami asked the driver in spanish, and was told that it was a POLICE roadblock not the army. They were shaking down tourists for about $300 a pop. Pay us here and now, or go to jail. There are some pretty slime-bag police depts. in this country, but I doubt that any would have the cojones to try to pull something like that.

    That evening, a woman waiting for the bus in front of our hotel, the J.W. Marriot, about as high-end as you can get, was robbed by a POLICEWOMAN driving a POLICE CAR.

    Screw Mexico, the level of corruption is off the charts. Why should I have to put up with that?
    Take them all back if they’re such choirboys. As for beach vacations, screw Mexico, I’ll go to the Dominican Republic or Jamaica. At least the cops won’t try to overtly rob me there.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I visit the area south of Cancun on a regular basis to dive in the caves there and pass these checkpoints all the time. I think we've ever been spoken to once. Extorting tourists? I call bullshit.
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  10. Anonymous • Disclaimer says: • Website

    Reed is against diversity as much as Derbyshire is but acknowledges that “diversity is what we have now as a matter of deliberate and continuing American policy and maybe we should make the best of it. Or decide how bad it really is.” That last sentence won’t happen until the Democrats are out of power and by then it will be too late – if it isn’t too late now. It’s reached the point where the Republican base has crept so far to the right that it’s almost impossible for them to be appeased.

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  11. iSteveFan says:

    I haven’t heard anyone argue that Mexico doesn’t have doctors or an educated class. Of course it would be nice if some of them were coming here. But the problem with Mexicans is the numbers.

    Since Jamestown in 1607, approximately 7 million Germans and 6 million Italians have come to what is the USA. Since 1980 approximately 11 million have come from Mexico. So Mexico has sent us almost as many immigrants in 35 years as the next two largest source nations combined have sent in 400!

    When will it stop? Recent polls have shown that at least 30 to 50% of the current population of Mexico would come to the USA if they could. That’s another thirty to fifty million. When will it stop?

    At this point I don’t care if Mexicans are the greatest people in the world. Can’t we all agree that Mexico has had its turn at the immigration trough.

    PS. As far as hispanic crime stats, I am not going to trust any studies until the issue of whether or not hispanic crime stats are included in the white crime stats is addressed. I’ve seen too many examples of clearly non-white hispanic perps being listed on various state police agency websites as “white”. As it stands it appears hispanic crime is under reported in this nation and white crime is over reported.

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  12. Truth says:

    Unznalsits jousting with each other? Must be Sweeps Week.

    As everyone here knows, I’m black so I’m 2 points dumber than Mess-kins, but there is one question I have that just never seems to be answered, no matter how many issues of the brilliant Fred Reed Canon I am blessed to have been privy to:

    Mexico has world class women, hospitals, lifestyle and education. Excellent family values, brilliant people, highways, and civil services, world-class social life, warmth, clean, functional cities, and people who love each other.

    Again, excuse my ignorance, but here is my question; then why do so many of them seem desperate to come here?

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    • Replies: @Wyrd
    ...I’m black...

    Wearied sigh

    We know.
    , @Anonymous
    They just want to be closer to American Blacks.
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  13. Kyle a says:

    Fred sure does love him a light skinned mexican. We should be thrilled he doesn’t reside in the Congo

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    • Replies: @Big Bill
    Fred explained once that his wife really isn't "Mexican". Her family immigrated from the Basque region of Spain.
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  14. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “Mexican doctors”

    Betcha a bottle of tequila that more than one-in-six of those Mexican doctors is white.

    Johannesburg also has fancy hospitals, bookstores and whatnot. Does not mean that indiscriminately importing South Africans wholesale is a good idea.

    “How, having invited them in and put them on welfare, can the US complain that they are in, and on welfare?”

    More than 11 million (more than the entire population of Sweden) are in America illegally – half of them Mexican. They were not “invited in”.

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    • Replies: @Stan D Mute

    More than 11 million (more than the entire population of Sweden) are in America illegally – half of them Mexican. They were not “invited in”.
     
    Don't be dense. If they weren't "invited in," then why were they given jobs, welfare, and housing? They're not in hiding like the Hole in the Wall Gang, they're right out in the open every day in every city. We could round them up and send them packing whenever we wanted. We don't.

    The failure, if that's how you view it, is OURS. It is OUR politicians and leaders (particularly the business owners) responsible. Blame them. String them up by lamp posts. If the Mexican can't find work or housing he will go home.
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  15. hrw-500 says:
    @Anonymous
    A million American expatriates live in Mexico, John. If it were as benighted and awful as you believe, don’t you think they might, like, you know—have noticed?

    America in the future will look a lot like Mexico does today, plus the Asians and several troublesome minority groups Mexico is mostly free of. The trains will still run, usually on time. Doctors, many of them Asian, will still practice. Bankers will make obscene amounts of money and act like they "created" it. Corruption will increase. For the upper middle class, life won't be all that bad. They'll still live in their suburban houses, send their 1.7 children to upper middle class schools, and think they're superior to the rest of the world, though it will be harder for the rational-minded to believe. There won't be much patriotism, the nation will be divided between self hating White people, NAMs who think "society" is oppressing them, and conservative White people who will eventually realize that it isn't their country anymore. Even though the country will be "socialist," the elites won't feel much loyalty to the people or desire to give their money away, it will be Mexico style socialism, not Swedish style socialism. There will be no spare money around for Manhattan projects or moon landings, and it will be obvious to unbiased historians that it is China's century. I can't think of many ways it will be BETTER than 20th century America beyond the technology, there might be less tolerance for the Blacks or willingness to wage dumb wars abroad. And that's the standard we should be using, not comparing it to the primitive barbarism of Africa, as you seem to. The two groups who will be really harmed by the development will be:

    1. The working class. Just look at the working class in Mexico.
    2. Those, mostly religious Christians, who value traditional sexual morality. The percentage of Mexicans who have no family values is far higher than the percentage of Americans.

    But neither the left nor the neoconservative right cares about those people.

    I sometimes read the "Alternate History Discussion Board:

    http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/

    To imagine the future, imagine a website populated by Chinese college students in 2070, auguring, in Chinese, about the question "what would history look like had The USA restricted it's immigration policy to Western Europeans? Would it be a second rate power today?"

    @Paik.

    Speaking of Alternate History discussion board; I spotted some threads about more whites in South Africa or a larger South Africa who could had included Southern Rhodesia if Southern Rhodesia had voted in the 1924 referendum to join the Union of South Africa.

    http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=94186

    http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=261764

    http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=283350

    http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=223872

    And while we talk also about South Africa, Steve Sailer as well as Mike Smith http://www.unz.com/isteve/south-african-blacks-going-all-district-9-on-aliens/

    http://mikesmithspoliticalcommentary.blogspot.ca/2015/04/xenofobia-sweeps-through-durban-what.html

    posted a blog post about the current situation between natives and immigrants

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  16. Rich says:

    Although he has, to American ears, a fancy sounding last name, Derbyshire is in fact, a lower class Englishman who was unable to succeed in an England that used to have higher standards. He is an immigrant who stands against immigration, a supposed “white race realist” married to a Chinese and a worshiper of IQ who apparently didn’t have a high enough IQ to succeed in the technical area (mathematics) in which he studied. He found an audience, plays the English lord, and makes a few bucks, not unlike an evangelical minister who beds hookers and takes drugs. All that said, I’d prefer English immigrants to Mexican immigrants.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Derbyshire hasn't done badly for himself. Based on his accomplishments, I'd guess an IQ somewhere to the right of 3 sd from the mean. His knowledge of mathematics is sufficient to have gained him a job on Wall Street and to have written several very good popular accounts of some pretty abstruse mathematics, e.g., general Galois theory. What's your maths background? Have you succeeded more prominently than Mr. Derbyshire? You sound like you're "punching way up" to borrow that silly cartoonist's phrase.
    , @JGTThrasher
    I've met Mr Derbyshire. In person he is humble, giving in conversation, and enjoyable to be around. He has also stood by his beliefs even when there was some cost to his reputation and his freelance work.
    Others have already stated here that there is a difference between educated and probably white Messicans, and which ones we are getting in hordes. I lived in northern Va in the 80's and 90's and as demographics changed I had many Mexican friends. My best friend to this day is Mexican. However, as the demographics further shifted the criminal element took over. MS13, a nice beheading just up the road,drugs, etc. It seems Fred lives in a safe place, away from Juarez, Edomex, Iguala, etc. He pretends that hundreds of girls are not stolen and used as sex slaves a year in these places, that the major crime from the lower class Mexicans creeping across the border is child molestation and drunk driving that often ends in injury or death (one of my friends was killed this way while walking to work) and that those folks often flee the scene. In short, he cherry picks the truth, because like a good liberal elitist would do when arguing for diversity, he can afford to live away from the problems.
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  17. Dave37 says:

    If we want to retain any of the good American Culture for the future we need to use some tougher applications of common sense … I can’t make out much of a change in direction, for some reason it all reminds me of a Patsy Cline song.

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  18. 2Mintzin1 [AKA "Mike"] says:

    Mr. Reed, you have lost it. Your rant on Derbyshire is straw man B.S.
    Derbyshire lives in the area of Huntington, Suffolk County, Long Island, which has been inundated with illegal immigrants. Huntington Station is a particularly populous area for them, because of cheap housing, I suppose.
    MS-13 and the Mexican Mafia have brought Long Island’s young people the gift of cheap heroin, and the resulting wave of overdoses is not pleasant to be around. Houses built for families are now used as hot sheet boardinghouses, in which a group of 15-25 young illegal immigrant men live in the basement, attic, etc., and sleep in shifts. In one instance that I am personally aware of, the cesspool was overwhelmed, and the men resorted to digging latrines in the backyard for their waste. There are plenty of uninsured and unlicensed Mexican drivers around, too. If one of them hits you and injures you, you had better have a substantial uninsured/underinsured insurance policy because you will be on your own. The Mexican driver may be briefly jailed , but he will then be bailed out and disappear.
    Construction crews, which used to employ large numbers of American blacks, are now largely, if not exclusively. Mexican and Central American. The blacks are out of luck.
    I speak as a former resident of Selden, Long Island , which is separated from Farmingville (yes, that Farmingville) by the width of a two-lane local road. I think both I and Mr. Derbyshire have a better awareness of the effects of opening our southern border on the middle-class and lower-class communities of Long Island than you do.
    Since leaving the states for Mexico, you have spent an increasing amount of your column space sniping at Americans. You now identify more with Mexicans than with Americans, to the point that Mexico is your adopted country. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose, but the quality of your columns is deteriorating as a result.

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    • Replies: @Stan D Mute

    Construction crews, which used to employ large numbers of American blacks, are now largely, if not exclusively. Mexican and Central American. The blacks are out of luck.
     
    Yes, but you miss the forest for the trees. The Mexicans make better workers than the negroes. So businesses hire the Mexicans because they are allowed to do so. The rest of your post is just symptomatic. The CORE issue is that we still have no idea what to do about our negroes. Or, even more core, rather than learning our lesson from the failed negro importation program, we imported Mexicans to be our new and improved negroes.

    So, really, the bottom line is Universalism. Whites think we are too good to dig ditches. We are all the same, all equal. We are all above average. So we bring in non-whites to do the nasty jobs. Then we complain when the non-whites behave like non-whites. The most sanctimonious whites assert Universalism includes the non-whites who start believing they too are all above average and the cycle continues.

    You want this to end? Put your idiot children to work digging ditches and stop pretending they're smart enough to be doctors when they have an IQ of 100.
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  19. JustJeff says:

    That’s one thing I like about you, Fred. You take an occasional break from preaching to the choir to tell them all to go to hell.

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  20. Corvinus says:

    Palk, you write great fiction.

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  21. rumpole57 says:

    I enjoyed a cruise a year ago where the ship made several stops in Mexican Pacific ports. I just completed another cruise that stopped in Cozumel, Mexico. At two of these Mexican cities my wife and I walked unaccompanied over a mile into town and back to the ship. We interacted with the locals and never felt at all unsafe. This compares with stops in Falmouth, Jamaica, and Labadee, Haiti. In Falmouth one feels unsafe outside of a small heavily patrolled and sanitized portion of the town. In fact, to even get to Falmouth one must pass through a Disneyland-like ersatz Falmouth that Royal Caribbean has constructed at the dock so that passengers don’t have to experience the genuine Falmouth. In Labadee, RC has walled off an entire peninsula (with concertina wire on top of the wall), patrolled a security force. One could accuse me of racial bias against the “sons of Africa”, but my wife and I wandered all over in Nassau, Bahamas, amongst like ” sons”, sans apprehension, just as we did in Mexico. I endorse Mr. Reed’s description of his adopted home.

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  22. syonredux says: • Website

    Ah, Fred.Whenever the subject of Mexico pops up, you just go all to pieces.Well, let’s begin:

    I question Jonn’s standing in the matter. John, an immigrant from England, now thinks himself an American. He is no more American than I am a Mexican. That is, we are both legally present in someone else’s country.

    Actually, Fred, he’s much more of an American than you are a Mexican.You see, the USA (traditionally) is an Anglo country.England is an Anglo country.Hence, Americans and Englishmen have more in common with each other than either has with Mexico.

    He is certainly less American than those Mexican-Americans whose famiies have been in the US since 1848.

    Very few of them, Fred.Interestingly, New Mexico is the only state with a substantial Hispanic Mestizo population from 1848 on.And it’s …..a really depressing place.Just take a gander at its NAEP scores.

    Now, as for Mexican IQ.Well, let’s start with some statistics via Greg Cochran:

    About 2% of a population with an average IQ of 100 scores above IQ above 130, about 0.1% above 145. For a population with an average of 85, only 0.1% will score above 130 – 20 times fewer. I am, for the moment, disregarding fat tails and some actual population differences in the standard deviation. The same thing is happening with the Ashkenazi Jews: a modest shift in mean (about 0.8 standard deviation above the European average) causes a big change in the fraction that exceeds a high threshold.

    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/zones-of-thought/

    Now, here’s some data, via Steve Sailer on Mexican-American IQ:

    Best estimate yet of Hispanic-American IQ

    Everyone across the political spectrum admits that the white-black test score gap is a major social problem, but nobody is thinking about the white-Hispanic test score gap, even though we have much more influence through immigration policy over whether Hispanics will be a large or huge proportion of the American population in the future. Fortunately, the facts are available, but they take a lot of digging to uncover.

    Here’s the best estimate I’ve yet seen: A 2001 meta-analysis of 39 studies covering a total 5,696,519 individuals in America (aged 14 and above) came up with an overall difference of 0.72 standard deviations in g (the “general factor” in cognitive ability) between “Anglo” whites and Hispanics. The 95% confidence range of the studies ran from .60 to .88 standard deviations, so there’s not a huge amount of disagreement among the studies.

    One standard deviation equals 15 IQ points, so that’s a gap of 10.8 IQ points, or an IQ of 89 on the Lynn-Vanhanen scale where white Americans equal 100. That would imply the average Hispanic would fall at the 24th percentile of the white IQ distribution. This inequality gets worse at higher IQs Assuming a normal distribution, 4.8% of whites would fall above 125 IQ versus only 0.9% of Hispanics, which explains why Hispanics are given ethnic preferences in prestige college admissions.

    In contrast, 105 studies of 6,246,729 individuals found an overall white-black gap of 1.10 standard deviations, or 16.5 points. (I typically round this down to 1.0 standard deviation and 15 points). So, the white-Hispanic gap appears to be about 65% as large as the notoriously depressing white-black gap. (Warning: this 65% number does not come from a perfect apples to apples comparison because more studies are used in calculating the white-black difference than the white-Hispanic difference.)

    Source: Roth, P. L., Bevier, C. A., Bobko, P., Switzer III, F. S. & Tyler, P. (2001) ” Ethnic group differences in cognitive ability in employment and educational settings: a meta-analysis.” Personnel Psychology 54, 297–330.

    And here’s data on Mexico:

    “Raven’s Standard Progressive Matrices test was administered to a representative sample of 920 white, Mestizo and Native Mexican Indian children aged 7–10 years in Mexico. The mean IQs in relation to a British mean of 100 obtained from the 1979 British standardization sample and adjusted for the estimated subsequent increase were: 98·0 for whites, 94·3 for Mestizos and 83·3 for Native Mexican Indians.”

    http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=266611

    And then let’s compare this to the racial composition of Mexico:

    98.0: Mexican Whites
    94.3:Mexican Mestizos
    83.3: Mexican Amerinds

    According to the CIA FACTBOOK, Mexico’s racial breakdown is:mestizo (Amerindian-Spanish) 60%, Amerindian or predominantly Amerindian 30%, white 9%, other 1%

    Things are not looking good Mexico way…..

    Now, Fred tends to dislike this kind of stuff.So, let’s turn to real world achievements.Mexico and the Nobel prize. According to WIKIPEDIA, three people of Mexican origins have won a Nobel:

    Alfonso García Robles: With Alva Myrdal, got the Peace Prize in 1982. For what it’s worth, he looks very White in his WIKIPEDIA photo.

    Mario J. Molina: Along with Paul J. Crutzen and F. Sherwood Rowland, he got the 1995 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for studying the threat posed to the ozone layer by CFCs. Looks pretty White in his WIKIPEDIA photo.

    Octavio Paz: 1990 Nobel in Lit. Based on WIKIPEDIA photo, he might have some Amerind ancestry (or he might not).

    So, Three prizes. Total. As compared to 10 for Scotland, 15 for Australia, 23 for Canada, 74 for England , 306 for the USA, …..

    Now, all of these figures are from WIKIPEDIA, so I’m sure that one could argue about the margins…but the overall portrait of Mexican achievement is pretty dire.

    How about Fields Medalists?:

    United States 12

    France 10

    Soviet Union (3) / Russia (6) 9

    United Kingdom 7

    Japan 3
    Belgium 2

    West Germany (1) / Germany (0) 1

    Australia 1

    British Hong Kong 1

    Finland 1

    Israel 1

    Italy 1

    Norway 1

    New Zealand 1

    Sweden 1

    Vietnam 1

    Iran 1

    Brazil 1

    (None Stateless) 1

    I’ve left out Manjul Bhargava. His background is complicated.

    So, Mexico has zero.Hell, all of Latin America has exactly one, which ties them with New Zealand.

    Mexico=mediocrity

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    • Replies: @silviosilver
    Fred's brain very quickly turns to mush when the subject is latinos. My favorite was his attempt at takimag to argue latinos weren't really as stupid as IQ tests say they are by posting pics of chess-playing Peruvians. He doesn't seem to grasp that the point isn't to gratuitously insult these people, but to face up to the reality that life very quickly deteriorates for whites wherever latinos become a huge majority and part of the reason for that is inborn traits related to intelligence and impulse control.

    I don't like that this is the case; I very much wish it wasn't the case; but I have to admit that it is the case. That's something Fred - with mixed latino offspring - cannot bring himself to do, perhaps for fear it's going to empower the next batch of Viennese postcard painters. So we get same constant stream-of-bullshit "analyses" you can find it any standard anti-white MSM outlet.
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  23. Fred Reed has a blind spot when it comes to Mexico, no doubt because of personal ties. He simply will not acknowledge that Mexican Indians, mestizos and descendants of conquistadores have different phenotypes based on widely different ancestral life histories– expressed in widely different success rates when it comes to life’s outcomes.

    Mr Reed plays along with the colour-blindness which is the official ideology of jumbled-up Latin American nations (and France). “Race doesn’t matter, we’re all citizens, it’s all about class and not skin colour. OK, the Mexicans who give the country a bad name and don’t fit into America just happen to be mainly dark, squat and dumb with moustaches on the women, but hey, that’s a coincidence.”

    The Derb is sick of your average wetback invading the USA, not of Carlos Slim (who isn’t even Spanish by descent) cuttting deals. Fred is a race unrealist.

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    • Replies: @SeanK
    Well, Fred is basically a joke, but he is not color blind. He often denigrates negroes in his columns. Fred has turned his back on his nation and race; a person like that should never be trusted.
    A "turn coat", if you will.
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  24. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Rich
    Although he has, to American ears, a fancy sounding last name, Derbyshire is in fact, a lower class Englishman who was unable to succeed in an England that used to have higher standards. He is an immigrant who stands against immigration, a supposed "white race realist" married to a Chinese and a worshiper of IQ who apparently didn't have a high enough IQ to succeed in the technical area (mathematics) in which he studied. He found an audience, plays the English lord, and makes a few bucks, not unlike an evangelical minister who beds hookers and takes drugs. All that said, I'd prefer English immigrants to Mexican immigrants.

    Derbyshire hasn’t done badly for himself. Based on his accomplishments, I’d guess an IQ somewhere to the right of 3 sd from the mean. His knowledge of mathematics is sufficient to have gained him a job on Wall Street and to have written several very good popular accounts of some pretty abstruse mathematics, e.g., general Galois theory. What’s your maths background? Have you succeeded more prominently than Mr. Derbyshire? You sound like you’re “punching way up” to borrow that silly cartoonist’s phrase.

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    • Replies: @Rich
    You can guess all you want about Derbyshire's IQ, doesn't mean a thing. Obviously, he's not a stupid man, he is, however, a hypocrite, who plays to a certain class of Americans who get the vapors around an English accent. I'm sorry, you can't be an immigrant and rail against immigration, you can't be a "white race realist" and be married to another race.
    As for my background and accomplishments, I've done okay, didn't have to leave the country of my birth and live pretty comfortably, other than that I could tell you anything I wanted and you'd never know if I was telling the truth, would you?
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  25. Blobby5 says:

    I’d take the Derb over this beanerphile any day!

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  26. Rich says:
    @Anonymous
    Derbyshire hasn't done badly for himself. Based on his accomplishments, I'd guess an IQ somewhere to the right of 3 sd from the mean. His knowledge of mathematics is sufficient to have gained him a job on Wall Street and to have written several very good popular accounts of some pretty abstruse mathematics, e.g., general Galois theory. What's your maths background? Have you succeeded more prominently than Mr. Derbyshire? You sound like you're "punching way up" to borrow that silly cartoonist's phrase.

    You can guess all you want about Derbyshire’s IQ, doesn’t mean a thing. Obviously, he’s not a stupid man, he is, however, a hypocrite, who plays to a certain class of Americans who get the vapors around an English accent. I’m sorry, you can’t be an immigrant and rail against immigration, you can’t be a “white race realist” and be married to another race.
    As for my background and accomplishments, I’ve done okay, didn’t have to leave the country of my birth and live pretty comfortably, other than that I could tell you anything I wanted and you’d never know if I was telling the truth, would you?

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    • Replies: @Sgt. Joe Friday
    "I’m sorry, you can’t be an immigrant and rail against immigration..."

    Actually, that sentiment is a lot more common than you would imagine. 15-16 years ago, my father was hospitalized for pneumonia in at the Eisenhower Medical Center in Palm Desert. His pulmonologist was a doctor who, judging from his accent, was originally from Lebanon or Syria. There was a large Hispanic family in the room next to my dad's, all gathered around a sick loved one who appeared to be doing very badly, if the amount of sobbing and agitated conversation (all in Spanish, naturally) was any indication.

    This greatly annoyed the doctor, who spat out "these people do not understand, they cannot bring the whole country of Mexico to the hospital!" I smirked and said to my brother "look at that, nobody likes immigrants, not even other immigrants." I might make the same observation today, but substitute "especially not" for "not even."

    , @syonredux

    I’m sorry, you can’t be an immigrant and rail against immigration,
     
    Sure you can. Derbyshire rails against Mestizo Hispanic immigrants for being both (a) culturally incompatible with the USA and (b) low IQ. Derbyshire comes from an Anglo nation, which makes him compatible with the (historically speaking) Anglo USA.And he's obviously quite intelligent.

    you can’t be a “white race realist” and be married to another race.
     
    Sure you can. East Asian-European interbreeding poses little threat (at present) to the White Race. This is in contrast to Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds, who will number 100 million+ in the USA by 2060.Interbreeding with a low IQ group of that size will do grave damage to the Euro American gene pool.
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  27. @Rich
    You can guess all you want about Derbyshire's IQ, doesn't mean a thing. Obviously, he's not a stupid man, he is, however, a hypocrite, who plays to a certain class of Americans who get the vapors around an English accent. I'm sorry, you can't be an immigrant and rail against immigration, you can't be a "white race realist" and be married to another race.
    As for my background and accomplishments, I've done okay, didn't have to leave the country of my birth and live pretty comfortably, other than that I could tell you anything I wanted and you'd never know if I was telling the truth, would you?

    “I’m sorry, you can’t be an immigrant and rail against immigration…”

    Actually, that sentiment is a lot more common than you would imagine. 15-16 years ago, my father was hospitalized for pneumonia in at the Eisenhower Medical Center in Palm Desert. His pulmonologist was a doctor who, judging from his accent, was originally from Lebanon or Syria. There was a large Hispanic family in the room next to my dad’s, all gathered around a sick loved one who appeared to be doing very badly, if the amount of sobbing and agitated conversation (all in Spanish, naturally) was any indication.

    This greatly annoyed the doctor, who spat out “these people do not understand, they cannot bring the whole country of Mexico to the hospital!” I smirked and said to my brother “look at that, nobody likes immigrants, not even other immigrants.” I might make the same observation today, but substitute “especially not” for “not even.”

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  28. Wyrd says:
    @Truth
    Unznalsits jousting with each other? Must be Sweeps Week.

    As everyone here knows, I'm black so I'm 2 points dumber than Mess-kins, but there is one question I have that just never seems to be answered, no matter how many issues of the brilliant Fred Reed Canon I am blessed to have been privy to:

    Mexico has world class women, hospitals, lifestyle and education. Excellent family values, brilliant people, highways, and civil services, world-class social life, warmth, clean, functional cities, and people who love each other.

    Again, excuse my ignorance, but here is my question; then why do so many of them seem desperate to come here?

    …I’m black…

    Wearied sigh

    We know.

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    • Replies: @Truth
    That's your comment? Thanks for your contribution.
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  29. syonredux says: • Website
    @Rich
    You can guess all you want about Derbyshire's IQ, doesn't mean a thing. Obviously, he's not a stupid man, he is, however, a hypocrite, who plays to a certain class of Americans who get the vapors around an English accent. I'm sorry, you can't be an immigrant and rail against immigration, you can't be a "white race realist" and be married to another race.
    As for my background and accomplishments, I've done okay, didn't have to leave the country of my birth and live pretty comfortably, other than that I could tell you anything I wanted and you'd never know if I was telling the truth, would you?

    I’m sorry, you can’t be an immigrant and rail against immigration,

    Sure you can. Derbyshire rails against Mestizo Hispanic immigrants for being both (a) culturally incompatible with the USA and (b) low IQ. Derbyshire comes from an Anglo nation, which makes him compatible with the (historically speaking) Anglo USA.And he’s obviously quite intelligent.

    you can’t be a “white race realist” and be married to another race.

    Sure you can. East Asian-European interbreeding poses little threat (at present) to the White Race. This is in contrast to Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds, who will number 100 million+ in the USA by 2060.Interbreeding with a low IQ group of that size will do grave damage to the Euro American gene pool.

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    • Replies: @Rich
    I guess if you believe immigrants can be against immigration and race-mixers can be against other races, you're probably a big fan of Black KKK members and Jewish Nazis. What ever happened to logic and consistency?
    , @silviosilver
    Interbreeding with asians just as surely removes whites from the earth as breeding with blacks or indios. The offspring of white/asian intermixtures don't look white, are not considered white, and do not consider themselves white. This is baseline racial reality, Syon, and no amount of wishful thinking can make it otherwise.
    , @Truth

    Sure you can. East Asian-European interbreeding poses little threat (at present) to the White Race.
     
    Twinkie has another take on this, he says y'all white broads are throwing themselves at the Hangukin.
    , @jack shindo
    Where do you people get off with this US IQ forkup idea as if it were some golden chalice of crap, which it is! What the hell is a Euro American gene pool? If this is the trend, then this Mendelian Malthusian eugenics hegeminy will sure be the end of, and the exact opposite of the Gettysberg Address and what it was supposed to encapsulate.
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  30. Yossarian says:

    Fred sure loves on his Mexicans…And hates on his Muslims!

    Fred needs to take a vacation to Turkey, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia, Morocco, Dubai, etc…He might just find out “those people” are just as human to.

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  31. M_Young says:

    “You could have added that this was a case of the border migrating, not the Mexicans.”

    Perhaps you should take a look at the old maps, the ones with large swathes labeled ‘Apacheria’ and ‘Comancheria’. The Mexican government’s 24-30 year hold on the vast majority of the SW was entirely illusory, as had been that of the Spanish before them. Likewise, few to zero of the Californios considered themselves ‘Mexican’, which is why the revolts against rule from Mexico City when that country ‘migrated’ the Spanish border. In any case, the vast vast majority of even ‘old school’ Mexican-American/Chicano families descend from folks who came to the US long after the Yankee stole ‘half of Mexico….the half with the good roads’.

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    • Replies: @Sgt. Joe Friday
    I think there were something like 5000 Californios at the time California was admitted to the Union in 1850.

    Anyway, this whole business of the USA "stealing" the southwest from Mexico is bogus. The Mexican government and our government were fighting a war. The United States was clearly going to defeat the Mexicans, and they were offered a deal: the land in question for $15,000,000 ($455,000,000 in 2015 dollars) which the Mexicans took. For largely uninhabited, unimproved real estate with no commercial or agricultural value at the time that was probably fair market value. If the deal was not to the liking of the Mexicans, they always had the option to keep fighting.

    Back in those days the idea that the winner would compensate the defeated for their property was unusual, and still is. In most cases land was taken by force, period, with no recompense offered.
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  32. M_Young says:

    “They do other things. Let me use medicine as an illustrative thunderclap. Mexican doctors—brace yourself–do not effect cures by sacrificing chickens.”

    Perhaps Fred needs to visit Los Angeles more.

    http://samquinones.com/reporters-blog/2012/03/07/migrants-curandero-witch-doctor/

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  33. M_Young says:

    Maybe I ought to stop saying ‘perhaps’

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  34. SeanK says:
    @enda clarke
    Fred Reed has a blind spot when it comes to Mexico, no doubt because of personal ties. He simply will not acknowledge that Mexican Indians, mestizos and descendants of conquistadores have different phenotypes based on widely different ancestral life histories-- expressed in widely different success rates when it comes to life's outcomes.

    Mr Reed plays along with the colour-blindness which is the official ideology of jumbled-up Latin American nations (and France). "Race doesn't matter, we're all citizens, it's all about class and not skin colour. OK, the Mexicans who give the country a bad name and don't fit into America just happen to be mainly dark, squat and dumb with moustaches on the women, but hey, that's a coincidence."

    The Derb is sick of your average wetback invading the USA, not of Carlos Slim (who isn't even Spanish by descent) cuttting deals. Fred is a race unrealist.

    Well, Fred is basically a joke, but he is not color blind. He often denigrates negroes in his columns. Fred has turned his back on his nation and race; a person like that should never be trusted.
    A “turn coat”, if you will.

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    • Replies: @Truth

    Well, Fred is basically a joke, but he is not color blind. =Fred has turned his back on his nation and race; a person like that should never be trusted.
    A “turn coat”, if you will
     

    Fred sure loves on his Mexicans…And hates on his Muslims!
     

    Fred’s brain very quickly turns to mush when the subject is latinos.
     
    Wow, Fredro's just trying to enculturate* you boring mayonnaise-on-your-Green-bean casserole eaters a little bit, and this is the thanks he gets?
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  35. Rich says:
    @syonredux

    I’m sorry, you can’t be an immigrant and rail against immigration,
     
    Sure you can. Derbyshire rails against Mestizo Hispanic immigrants for being both (a) culturally incompatible with the USA and (b) low IQ. Derbyshire comes from an Anglo nation, which makes him compatible with the (historically speaking) Anglo USA.And he's obviously quite intelligent.

    you can’t be a “white race realist” and be married to another race.
     
    Sure you can. East Asian-European interbreeding poses little threat (at present) to the White Race. This is in contrast to Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds, who will number 100 million+ in the USA by 2060.Interbreeding with a low IQ group of that size will do grave damage to the Euro American gene pool.

    I guess if you believe immigrants can be against immigration and race-mixers can be against other races, you’re probably a big fan of Black KKK members and Jewish Nazis. What ever happened to logic and consistency?

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    • Replies: @grey enlightenment
    Jewish Nazis

    these actually exist
    , @syonredux

    I guess if you believe immigrants can be against immigration
     
    Sure they can.Not all immigrants are the same, so why should they be treated the same?

    and race-mixers can be against other races,
     
    Sure they can. HBD. Races differ.Hence, some races are less desirable as breeding stock in the USA.
    , @silviosilver

    I guess if you believe immigrants can be against immigration and race-mixers can be against other races, you’re probably a big fan of Black KKK members and Jewish Nazis. What ever happened to logic and consistency?
     
    Immigrant status doesn't prevent one from evaluating the broad effects of immigration, deciding the those effects don't suit him, and proclaiming 'enough is enough.' The only alternative is to claim that immigrant status condemns one to argue that immigration cannot and must not ever be terminated - which is not logical at all.

    Race-mixing doesn't imply that one looks equally favorably upon all races. One can like and mix with Chinese and dislike and refuse to mix with Africans, say. There's nothing illogical or inconsistent there.
    , @Andy
    As Syon has written, this country was founded as an Anglo nation and had nothing but Northern European immigrants for its first 300+ years. And then after, it had nothing but European immigrants till 1965. So I'd say John Derbyshire fits in quite well.

    Our country would be much better off if the GOP had similar immigration views to what John has.
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  36. @M_Young
    "You could have added that this was a case of the border migrating, not the Mexicans."

    Perhaps you should take a look at the old maps, the ones with large swathes labeled 'Apacheria' and 'Comancheria'. The Mexican government's 24-30 year hold on the vast majority of the SW was entirely illusory, as had been that of the Spanish before them. Likewise, few to zero of the Californios considered themselves 'Mexican', which is why the revolts against rule from Mexico City when that country 'migrated' the Spanish border. In any case, the vast vast majority of even 'old school' Mexican-American/Chicano families descend from folks who came to the US long after the Yankee stole 'half of Mexico....the half with the good roads'.

    I think there were something like 5000 Californios at the time California was admitted to the Union in 1850.

    Anyway, this whole business of the USA “stealing” the southwest from Mexico is bogus. The Mexican government and our government were fighting a war. The United States was clearly going to defeat the Mexicans, and they were offered a deal: the land in question for $15,000,000 ($455,000,000 in 2015 dollars) which the Mexicans took. For largely uninhabited, unimproved real estate with no commercial or agricultural value at the time that was probably fair market value. If the deal was not to the liking of the Mexicans, they always had the option to keep fighting.

    Back in those days the idea that the winner would compensate the defeated for their property was unusual, and still is. In most cases land was taken by force, period, with no recompense offered.

    Read More
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  37. @Rich
    I guess if you believe immigrants can be against immigration and race-mixers can be against other races, you're probably a big fan of Black KKK members and Jewish Nazis. What ever happened to logic and consistency?

    Jewish Nazis

    these actually exist

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  38. @syonredux
    Ah, Fred.Whenever the subject of Mexico pops up, you just go all to pieces.Well, let's begin:

    I question Jonn’s standing in the matter. John, an immigrant from England, now thinks himself an American. He is no more American than I am a Mexican. That is, we are both legally present in someone else’s country.
     
    Actually, Fred, he's much more of an American than you are a Mexican.You see, the USA (traditionally) is an Anglo country.England is an Anglo country.Hence, Americans and Englishmen have more in common with each other than either has with Mexico.

    He is certainly less American than those Mexican-Americans whose famiies have been in the US since 1848.
     
    Very few of them, Fred.Interestingly, New Mexico is the only state with a substantial Hispanic Mestizo population from 1848 on.And it's .....a really depressing place.Just take a gander at its NAEP scores.

    Now, as for Mexican IQ.Well, let's start with some statistics via Greg Cochran:

    About 2% of a population with an average IQ of 100 scores above IQ above 130, about 0.1% above 145. For a population with an average of 85, only 0.1% will score above 130 – 20 times fewer. I am, for the moment, disregarding fat tails and some actual population differences in the standard deviation. The same thing is happening with the Ashkenazi Jews: a modest shift in mean (about 0.8 standard deviation above the European average) causes a big change in the fraction that exceeds a high threshold.
     
    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2012/03/28/zones-of-thought/

    Now, here's some data, via Steve Sailer on Mexican-American IQ:

    Best estimate yet of Hispanic-American IQ

    Everyone across the political spectrum admits that the white-black test score gap is a major social problem, but nobody is thinking about the white-Hispanic test score gap, even though we have much more influence through immigration policy over whether Hispanics will be a large or huge proportion of the American population in the future. Fortunately, the facts are available, but they take a lot of digging to uncover.

    Here’s the best estimate I’ve yet seen: A 2001 meta-analysis of 39 studies covering a total 5,696,519 individuals in America (aged 14 and above) came up with an overall difference of 0.72 standard deviations in g (the “general factor” in cognitive ability) between “Anglo” whites and Hispanics. The 95% confidence range of the studies ran from .60 to .88 standard deviations, so there’s not a huge amount of disagreement among the studies.

    One standard deviation equals 15 IQ points, so that’s a gap of 10.8 IQ points, or an IQ of 89 on the Lynn-Vanhanen scale where white Americans equal 100. That would imply the average Hispanic would fall at the 24th percentile of the white IQ distribution. This inequality gets worse at higher IQs Assuming a normal distribution, 4.8% of whites would fall above 125 IQ versus only 0.9% of Hispanics, which explains why Hispanics are given ethnic preferences in prestige college admissions.

    In contrast, 105 studies of 6,246,729 individuals found an overall white-black gap of 1.10 standard deviations, or 16.5 points. (I typically round this down to 1.0 standard deviation and 15 points). So, the white-Hispanic gap appears to be about 65% as large as the notoriously depressing white-black gap. (Warning: this 65% number does not come from a perfect apples to apples comparison because more studies are used in calculating the white-black difference than the white-Hispanic difference.)

    Source: Roth, P. L., Bevier, C. A., Bobko, P., Switzer III, F. S. & Tyler, P. (2001) ” Ethnic group differences in cognitive ability in employment and educational settings: a meta-analysis.” Personnel Psychology 54, 297–330.

     

    And here's data on Mexico:

    “Raven’s Standard Progressive Matrices test was administered to a representative sample of 920 white, Mestizo and Native Mexican Indian children aged 7–10 years in Mexico. The mean IQs in relation to a British mean of 100 obtained from the 1979 British standardization sample and adjusted for the estimated subsequent increase were: 98·0 for whites, 94·3 for Mestizos and 83·3 for Native Mexican Indians.”

    http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=266611

     

    And then let's compare this to the racial composition of Mexico:

    98.0: Mexican Whites
    94.3:Mexican Mestizos
    83.3: Mexican Amerinds

    According to the CIA FACTBOOK, Mexico’s racial breakdown is:mestizo (Amerindian-Spanish) 60%, Amerindian or predominantly Amerindian 30%, white 9%, other 1%

    Things are not looking good Mexico way.....


    Now, Fred tends to dislike this kind of stuff.So, let's turn to real world achievements.Mexico and the Nobel prize. According to WIKIPEDIA, three people of Mexican origins have won a Nobel:

    Alfonso García Robles: With Alva Myrdal, got the Peace Prize in 1982. For what it’s worth, he looks very White in his WIKIPEDIA photo.

    Mario J. Molina: Along with Paul J. Crutzen and F. Sherwood Rowland, he got the 1995 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for studying the threat posed to the ozone layer by CFCs. Looks pretty White in his WIKIPEDIA photo.

    Octavio Paz: 1990 Nobel in Lit. Based on WIKIPEDIA photo, he might have some Amerind ancestry (or he might not).

    So, Three prizes. Total. As compared to 10 for Scotland, 15 for Australia, 23 for Canada, 74 for England , 306 for the USA, …..

    Now, all of these figures are from WIKIPEDIA, so I’m sure that one could argue about the margins…but the overall portrait of Mexican achievement is pretty dire.

    How about Fields Medalists?:



    United States 12

    France 10

    Soviet Union (3) / Russia (6) 9

    United Kingdom 7

    Japan 3
    Belgium 2

    West Germany (1) / Germany (0) 1

    Australia 1

    British Hong Kong 1

    Finland 1

    Israel 1

    Italy 1

    Norway 1

    New Zealand 1

    Sweden 1

    Vietnam 1

    Iran 1

    Brazil 1

    (None Stateless) 1

    I've left out Manjul Bhargava. His background is complicated.

    So, Mexico has zero.Hell, all of Latin America has exactly one, which ties them with New Zealand.



    Mexico=mediocrity

    Fred’s brain very quickly turns to mush when the subject is latinos. My favorite was his attempt at takimag to argue latinos weren’t really as stupid as IQ tests say they are by posting pics of chess-playing Peruvians. He doesn’t seem to grasp that the point isn’t to gratuitously insult these people, but to face up to the reality that life very quickly deteriorates for whites wherever latinos become a huge majority and part of the reason for that is inborn traits related to intelligence and impulse control.

    I don’t like that this is the case; I very much wish it wasn’t the case; but I have to admit that it is the case. That’s something Fred – with mixed latino offspring – cannot bring himself to do, perhaps for fear it’s going to empower the next batch of Viennese postcard painters. So we get same constant stream-of-bullshit “analyses” you can find it any standard anti-white MSM outlet.

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    • Replies: @Nico
    I think the deal with Fred Reed is that he has fallen in love with Latin America, and conservatives who want to understand their own civilization need to understand how easy and beautiful a thing that is.

    Just look at the food, for one thing. The gastronomic mix offered in Mexico, Costa Rica, Cuba, Argentina and Brazil is breathtaking, far superior to anything found in Spain or Portugal. The base of these countries' cuisine has come from the French, German and Italian immigrants who fused their recipies with the Native and African sensibilities, and the results have been fantastic. But of course, for the lower classes of Central and South America - meaning the vast majority of the population - , food consists of beans and rice, and that's if you own chickens.

    The gastronomic situation is a good synecdoche for Latin America as a whole. At its best it still shines with the glory of Imperial Spain and Portugal (especially its architecture!), spiced with the mischief of the seafaring Continentals who subsequently snuck ashore and tinged with the exotic myths and strains of precolumbian tribal life, African or Mesoamerican. One of the great baroque composers - José Maurício Nunes Garcia - not only was born in Brazil, but had two mulatto parents!

    In sum, Latin America at its best is an extension and proselytization of medieval and early Renaissance European and Christian civilization, later infused with the newer morphologies of Europe in an almost anachronystic fashion. But the acculturation of the primitives has not kept pace, especially since the 19th century. While the potential for greatness of the aristocrats and the bourgeoisie - mostly but not exclusively on the white end of the mulatto/mestizo spectrum - is undisputable, the limited potential of the underclass majority - mostly but not exclusively on the black and brown end of the mulatto/mestizo spectrum - is painfully obvious.

    It is this latter which forms the bulk of the new arrivals to the United States. Reed can rightly laud the virtues of Mexican and Latin American civilization (and American conservatives would do well to admit, recognize and appreciate them) until the cows come home, but the critiques frustrated Anglo-American conservatives levy against "Mexicans," from IQ to culture, do indeed fairly apply to these new arrivals, who are not destined to replicate the best virtues of their civilization in the land they are colonizing. Quite the contrary in fact.
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  39. @syonredux

    I’m sorry, you can’t be an immigrant and rail against immigration,
     
    Sure you can. Derbyshire rails against Mestizo Hispanic immigrants for being both (a) culturally incompatible with the USA and (b) low IQ. Derbyshire comes from an Anglo nation, which makes him compatible with the (historically speaking) Anglo USA.And he's obviously quite intelligent.

    you can’t be a “white race realist” and be married to another race.
     
    Sure you can. East Asian-European interbreeding poses little threat (at present) to the White Race. This is in contrast to Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds, who will number 100 million+ in the USA by 2060.Interbreeding with a low IQ group of that size will do grave damage to the Euro American gene pool.

    Interbreeding with asians just as surely removes whites from the earth as breeding with blacks or indios. The offspring of white/asian intermixtures don’t look white, are not considered white, and do not consider themselves white. This is baseline racial reality, Syon, and no amount of wishful thinking can make it otherwise.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Interbreeding with asians just as surely removes whites from the earth as breeding with blacks or indios.
     
    Only if the numbers are high enough.In the USA, they are not.

    The offspring of white/asian intermixtures don’t look white,
     
    Actually, some do. I grew up next door to a family that consisted of a Euro father and a Japanese mother.They had three daughters.All of whom looked quite Caucasoid.And they date White.Exclusively.

    are not considered white,
     
    You're not hanging out enough in the right circles.

    and do not consider themselves white.
     
    Well, the three sisters that I mentioned all put down White on their driver's licenses.
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  40. @Ronald Thomas West
    Nice stuff Fred, you'd make a decent satirist with a bit of effort. Here's a dig you missed thought when stating:

    "He is certainly less American than those Mexican-Americans whose famiies have been in the US since 1848"

    You could have added that this was a case of the border migrating, not the Mexicans.

    Insofar as multiculturalism being a failure, I couldn't agree more; and John Derbyshire (that names right out of Robin Hood, right?) is solid 'basil-ganglia' conservative evidence of why:

    http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/10/09/liberals/

    ^

    You could have added that this was a case of the border migrating, not the Mexicans.

    Lol. Mexico’s claim on the western USA had as much validity as my claim on Antarctica.

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  41. @grey enlightenment
    I concur. Derb doesn't hate Mexicans; he hates illegal immigration. Does he think Mexicans, on the aggregate, are are less intelligent than Europeans, possibly, but he doesn't discuss that much on his podcast.

    Rubbish. Derbyshire is unquestionably convinced that Mexicans are significantly dumber than whites and the legally importing millions of them is an extremely unwise idea.

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    • Replies: @Realist
    The average IQ of Mexicans is significantly lower than the average white IQ.
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  42. Truth says:
    @Wyrd
    ...I’m black...

    Wearied sigh

    We know.

    That’s your comment? Thanks for your contribution.

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  43. Truth says:
    @syonredux

    I’m sorry, you can’t be an immigrant and rail against immigration,
     
    Sure you can. Derbyshire rails against Mestizo Hispanic immigrants for being both (a) culturally incompatible with the USA and (b) low IQ. Derbyshire comes from an Anglo nation, which makes him compatible with the (historically speaking) Anglo USA.And he's obviously quite intelligent.

    you can’t be a “white race realist” and be married to another race.
     
    Sure you can. East Asian-European interbreeding poses little threat (at present) to the White Race. This is in contrast to Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds, who will number 100 million+ in the USA by 2060.Interbreeding with a low IQ group of that size will do grave damage to the Euro American gene pool.

    Sure you can. East Asian-European interbreeding poses little threat (at present) to the White Race.

    Twinkie has another take on this, he says y’all white broads are throwing themselves at the Hangukin.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Twinkie has another take on this, he says y’all white broads are throwing themselves at the Hangukin.
     
    And?
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  44. Truth says:
    @SeanK
    Well, Fred is basically a joke, but he is not color blind. He often denigrates negroes in his columns. Fred has turned his back on his nation and race; a person like that should never be trusted.
    A "turn coat", if you will.

    Well, Fred is basically a joke, but he is not color blind. =Fred has turned his back on his nation and race; a person like that should never be trusted.
    A “turn coat”, if you will

    Fred sure loves on his Mexicans…And hates on his Muslims!

    Fred’s brain very quickly turns to mush when the subject is latinos.

    Wow, Fredro’s just trying to enculturate* you boring mayonnaise-on-your-Green-bean casserole eaters a little bit, and this is the thanks he gets?

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    • Replies: @Yossarian

    mayonnaise-on-your-Green-bean casserole
     
    Yup...Sounds like standard issue White people food.

    Makes me that much happier I was raised eating Middle Eastern.
    , @JSM
    Toots:
    Looks like YOU could use some enculturatin'. We do NOT put mayonnaise on our green bean casseroles. The proper ingredient is canned Campbells condensed mushroom soup.
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  45. Truth says:

    * Look it up.

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  46. M_Young says:

    “I guess if you believe immigrants can be against immigration and race-mixers can be against other races, you’re probably a big fan of Black KKK members and Jewish Nazis. What ever happened to logic and consistency?”

    I can live in a house and yet dislike the sprawling mini-mansion development planned for the north of town. I can shop at a grocery store and yet oppose the building of a Walmart Supercenter in my neighborhood. I can drive on the Freeway and yet oppose its being expanded to 10 lanes on each side.

    Immigration is a policy; there is a lot of room for adjusting that policy. As it is, Derbyshire is from a nation disfavored by our current, nepotistic (‘Family Reunification’) policy.

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  47. Fred is getting old, and he has a Mexican wife who appears to be heavily white- with I believe some Jewish ancestry as well, so she is probably fairly bright. She has a daughter, illegitimate, I believe, who also appears to be fairly bright. Mexicans are extremely aware of the realities of colorism and race (Telenovelas, anyone?) and his wife probably mated with a man with a very high percentage of white blood in him.

    Fred like regular sex. Fred likes clean laundry. Fred likes home-cooked meals. The romantic prospects for a man like Fred in the U.S. are more limiting, in many ways, than they are in Mexico, especially when it comes to marrying a woman with an illegitimate child in a Catholic country.

    Fred does not seem to understand what has happened to huge swaths of American cities due to the immivasion. I have lived in Spain, Miami, France, London, and travelled and lived in many other countries and places, and to put it simply, Fred is bullshitting us to keep the peace at home. Comparing an English mathematician with a mestizo day laborer who is most likely barely literate in Spanish, with Derbyshire, who speaks Chinese as well as English, is simply utterly absurd. It’s like comparing Arab day laborers in France with graduates of Ecoloe de Science Politique ( an extremely prestigious French college where most government ministers graduate).

    That being said, Fred ought to write about how Americans who get involved in Mexican politics are liable to be thrown out of the country. Or how Mexicans treat immigrants from their southern neighbors.

    I have lost a lot of respect for Fred after reading this column. Fred, you need to learn how to control your woman better. This fawning and rationalizing doesn’t fool anyone, especially a Mexican. They know how shitty much of their country is. Why else would 40% of them already live in the US?

    An American friend of mine, of Mexican descent, was sent to school in Mexico by his father to teach him a lesson about life. After he got shot in a drive-by, with his friend next to him killed and another friend shot as well, he pleaded to come home. I asked him the details of what had happened. He said they were sitting in the main square of Guadalajara, at a cafe, when boys from their high school came by in a pickup truck and opened fire on them from the truck bed. I asked him if it was over drugs or girls. He said no, it was over a STUDENT GOVERNMENT ELECTION. I couldn’t believe it, and he said that these were the rich kids whose fathers could bail them out of anything. He told me that he considered Mexico savage (his words).

    I have seen similar Latin attitudes in Miami. Frankly, I could care less if anyone here believes me or not.

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    • Replies: @SeanK
    Good comment. I think it's reasonably fair to assume that Fred's common law wife probably has a Mexican man on the side that satisfies her sexual needs. Mexican women are notorious for that sort of behavior, and Fred is just her "meal ticket" anyhow.
    I too have lost respect for Fred and now only read his articles for a laugh. It is a shame how he has essentially turned his back on everything he once held dear to his heart. Those things being: his children, his nation and his love of Southern White people and their culture.
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  48. syonredux says: • Website
    @silviosilver
    Interbreeding with asians just as surely removes whites from the earth as breeding with blacks or indios. The offspring of white/asian intermixtures don't look white, are not considered white, and do not consider themselves white. This is baseline racial reality, Syon, and no amount of wishful thinking can make it otherwise.

    Interbreeding with asians just as surely removes whites from the earth as breeding with blacks or indios.

    Only if the numbers are high enough.In the USA, they are not.

    The offspring of white/asian intermixtures don’t look white,

    Actually, some do. I grew up next door to a family that consisted of a Euro father and a Japanese mother.They had three daughters.All of whom looked quite Caucasoid.And they date White.Exclusively.

    are not considered white,

    You’re not hanging out enough in the right circles.

    and do not consider themselves white.

    Well, the three sisters that I mentioned all put down White on their driver’s licenses.

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    • Replies: @silviosilver

    Actually, some do.
     
    And most don't. And because they don't mixing with Asians has the effect of reducing white numbers and diluting white traits to the point of effective white non-existence. Racial preservation has to be based on racial reality, no matter how difficult it may be - not on racial fantasy, however pleasant that may be. In the long-term, mixing is the mechanism - it and no other - that will remove whites from the earth. Unfortunately, talking about mixing calmly and rationally, and exploring means to mitigate the threat it poses, is so difficult that most people - and you're a good example - simply cannot bring themselves to do it. Thus fantasy drives out reality and whites continue to fade away into eventual nothingness.
    , @VOX
    It is probably too late, but yes.

    East Asians and Whites are not that far distant from one another, genetically speaking. Hapa girls--half Japanese, that is--usually have brown hair and dark eyes and cause one to wonder if they might be of Middle Eastern or Southern European descent. 25% Asian/75% White mixed-race children are indistinguishable from White children other than in subtle differences in the shape of the cheekbones; 75% Asian, 25% White children are indistinguishable from Asians other than being a bit taller than average.
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  49. syonredux says: • Website
    @Rich
    I guess if you believe immigrants can be against immigration and race-mixers can be against other races, you're probably a big fan of Black KKK members and Jewish Nazis. What ever happened to logic and consistency?

    I guess if you believe immigrants can be against immigration

    Sure they can.Not all immigrants are the same, so why should they be treated the same?

    and race-mixers can be against other races,

    Sure they can. HBD. Races differ.Hence, some races are less desirable as breeding stock in the USA.

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  50. syonredux says: • Website
    @Truth

    Sure you can. East Asian-European interbreeding poses little threat (at present) to the White Race.
     
    Twinkie has another take on this, he says y'all white broads are throwing themselves at the Hangukin.

    Twinkie has another take on this, he says y’all white broads are throwing themselves at the Hangukin.

    And?

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  51. @Rich
    I guess if you believe immigrants can be against immigration and race-mixers can be against other races, you're probably a big fan of Black KKK members and Jewish Nazis. What ever happened to logic and consistency?

    I guess if you believe immigrants can be against immigration and race-mixers can be against other races, you’re probably a big fan of Black KKK members and Jewish Nazis. What ever happened to logic and consistency?

    Immigrant status doesn’t prevent one from evaluating the broad effects of immigration, deciding the those effects don’t suit him, and proclaiming ‘enough is enough.’ The only alternative is to claim that immigrant status condemns one to argue that immigration cannot and must not ever be terminated – which is not logical at all.

    Race-mixing doesn’t imply that one looks equally favorably upon all races. One can like and mix with Chinese and dislike and refuse to mix with Africans, say. There’s nothing illogical or inconsistent there.

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  52. @syonredux

    Interbreeding with asians just as surely removes whites from the earth as breeding with blacks or indios.
     
    Only if the numbers are high enough.In the USA, they are not.

    The offspring of white/asian intermixtures don’t look white,
     
    Actually, some do. I grew up next door to a family that consisted of a Euro father and a Japanese mother.They had three daughters.All of whom looked quite Caucasoid.And they date White.Exclusively.

    are not considered white,
     
    You're not hanging out enough in the right circles.

    and do not consider themselves white.
     
    Well, the three sisters that I mentioned all put down White on their driver's licenses.

    Actually, some do.

    And most don’t. And because they don’t mixing with Asians has the effect of reducing white numbers and diluting white traits to the point of effective white non-existence. Racial preservation has to be based on racial reality, no matter how difficult it may be – not on racial fantasy, however pleasant that may be. In the long-term, mixing is the mechanism – it and no other – that will remove whites from the earth. Unfortunately, talking about mixing calmly and rationally, and exploring means to mitigate the threat it poses, is so difficult that most people – and you’re a good example – simply cannot bring themselves to do it. Thus fantasy drives out reality and whites continue to fade away into eventual nothingness.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    In the long term, mutation and genetic drift alone would make any future populations descended from contemporary white populations more different from contemporary white populations than contemporary white populations are from any other contemporary group.
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  53. Andy says:
    @Rich
    I guess if you believe immigrants can be against immigration and race-mixers can be against other races, you're probably a big fan of Black KKK members and Jewish Nazis. What ever happened to logic and consistency?

    As Syon has written, this country was founded as an Anglo nation and had nothing but Northern European immigrants for its first 300+ years. And then after, it had nothing but European immigrants till 1965. So I’d say John Derbyshire fits in quite well.

    Our country would be much better off if the GOP had similar immigration views to what John has.

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    • Replies: @Rich
    But Mr. Debyshire brought his spouse, a Chinese national, with him, further diluting the White population of the US. How is that a good thing? The America my ancestors founded and built was a European nation related by both blood and religion, Mr. Derbyshire is a guest here and although he might make some valid points, I believe he is a hypocrite and a fraud because, as Granny used to say, "Actions speak louder than words."
    , @Realist
    I agree with most of what you said, but this country is not over 300 years old.
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  54. Andy says:

    As far as immigration from Northeast Asia, it’s preferable to any non-European immigration. They tend to be intelligent, well-behaved people.

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  55. You’re not hanging out enough in the right circles.

    There are a couple of ways to interpret “considered to be white.”

    The first is “interact with as though they were white.” The second is “believe to be white.”

    I have no trouble believing that your circles treat these people as they do whites. That’s easy. One doesn’t have to even have any white features to be extended such treatment. Generally, though, the whiter one looks the more likely one is to associate with whites and to be treated and reacted to as white. But such people are not necessarily believed to be white, and unless people in your circles sit around discussing it I don’t see how you could know what race your friends believe white-asian mixes to be.

    In my own family I have a cousin who married a Malay. The son she had with him looks predominantly caucasoid – much the way many Indians do – but it’s doubtful in the extreme anyone would ever call him white. The daughter looks predominantly asian, with nary a hint of white ancestry. It makes things very awkward for me, because the cousin in question is one of my favorites and the children are completely assimilated into white ways. But they are perceptive children and they can sense that, even though everyone is very polite and pleasant to them, they don’t quite fit in. The son has obliquely hinted at this on a few occasions and, perhaps I’m seeing things, but he has a kind of resigned look in his eyes at family gatherings, where he and his sister really stand out. It makes it difficult for everyone and it’s reason enough – even if didn’t lead to white racial extinction – to disapprove of mixing.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    It makes it difficult for everyone and it’s reason enough – even if didn’t lead to white racial extinction – to disapprove of mixing.
     
    In general, I'm not inclined to approve of mixing.For example, being an Anglo, I would not be inclined to reproduce with an Estonian or a Finn.And I would be still less inclined to reproduce with a Chinese or a Japanese.

    However, my concern over interbreeding is greatest when it poses a civilization-wide threat.And, in the USA, Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds pose the greatest threat by far.

    Hence, I don't waste too much energy on East Asian-Euro interbreeding in the USA.

    And most don’t.
     
    It would be interesting to see the numbers on that.I know, for example, that lots of White-Asian mixes who have Euro surnames (a very high percentage) tend to put White on their university applications .Unis have a history of trying to keep East Asian numbers down.Hence, it would seem that there is a bit of an incentive for them to not identify as East Asian.

    And because they don’t mixing with Asians has the effect of reducing white numbers and diluting white traits to the point of effective white non-existence.
     
    Well, as noted previously, we have no figures on this, just anecdotal evidence.As for diluting White traits, that's a matter of numbers.If the East Asian fraction is small enough (as it is right now in the USA) it can be absorbed by the Euro population.

    "Racial preservation has to be based on racial reality, no matter how difficult it may be – not on racial fantasy, however pleasant that may be. In the long-term, mixing is the mechanism – it and no other – that will remove whites from the earth. Unfortunately, talking about mixing calmly and rationally, and exploring means to mitigate the threat it poses, is so difficult that most people – and you’re a good example – simply cannot bring themselves to do it. Thus fantasy drives out reality and whites continue to fade away into eventual nothingness."

    Actually, I think that I am doing a rather good job of grounding this in the facts.East Asian numbers are low, but Hispanic Mestizo/Amerind numbers are high.Hence, it seems to me that the Euro population in the USA can more or less absorb the East Asians who are here without too much difficulty.Mexican Mestizos/Amerinds, in contrast, are the proverbial pig in the python, and they threaten to absorb us.
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  56. Question: would Fred be saying everything he’s saying if he wasn’t married to a Mexican?

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  57. Derb isn’t against all immigration, nor is he against illegal immigration per se. He’s against mass immigration (legal or otherwise), especially mass immigration from radically different cultures.

    Being a race realist doesn’t make Derb a hypocrite for marrying a Chinese woman, not at all. A race realist recognizes group differences between races, but also knows that individual variances within any race are far greater than these group differences. A race realist also knows that East Asian IQs average higher than white, so if you’re white and want smart kids. . . I leave the rest as an exercise to the reader.

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    • Replies: @Rich
    IQ, IQ, IQ, enough with all the IQ nonsense. I don't care if an IQ test says some East Asians have high IQs. The US was founded by White Europeans who did pretty well before any Asians did anything besides laundry and gardening. I get it, a lot of people fall for hypocrite preachers, too, I shouldn't be surprised people are fooled by a fraud like Mr. Derbyshire.
    , @Bliss

    A race realist also knows that East Asian IQs average higher than white, so if you’re white and want smart kids. . . I leave the rest as an exercise to the reader.
     
    Likewise, you race realists also know that people of west african ancestry are more athletic than europeans (and more gifted and creative in music, literature, oratory etc). So if you are white and want athletic, outgoing, creative children...

    Basically, according to you, race realism should lead to race mixing. Who doesn't want his kids to be more intelligent, athletic etc than the average?

    Btw, if you really cherish IQ so much why would you want east asians to have lower IQ kids by marrying whites?
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  58. Rich says:
    @Andy
    As Syon has written, this country was founded as an Anglo nation and had nothing but Northern European immigrants for its first 300+ years. And then after, it had nothing but European immigrants till 1965. So I'd say John Derbyshire fits in quite well.

    Our country would be much better off if the GOP had similar immigration views to what John has.

    But Mr. Debyshire brought his spouse, a Chinese national, with him, further diluting the White population of the US. How is that a good thing? The America my ancestors founded and built was a European nation related by both blood and religion, Mr. Derbyshire is a guest here and although he might make some valid points, I believe he is a hypocrite and a fraud because, as Granny used to say, “Actions speak louder than words.”

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    • Replies: @John C
    You seem to confuse the "terms" "race realist" and "white nationalist." Derb has never claimed to be a white nationalist.
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  59. Rich says:
    @Rex Little
    Derb isn't against all immigration, nor is he against illegal immigration per se. He's against mass immigration (legal or otherwise), especially mass immigration from radically different cultures.

    Being a race realist doesn't make Derb a hypocrite for marrying a Chinese woman, not at all. A race realist recognizes group differences between races, but also knows that individual variances within any race are far greater than these group differences. A race realist also knows that East Asian IQs average higher than white, so if you're white and want smart kids. . . I leave the rest as an exercise to the reader.

    IQ, IQ, IQ, enough with all the IQ nonsense. I don’t care if an IQ test says some East Asians have high IQs. The US was founded by White Europeans who did pretty well before any Asians did anything besides laundry and gardening. I get it, a lot of people fall for hypocrite preachers, too, I shouldn’t be surprised people are fooled by a fraud like Mr. Derbyshire.

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  60. SeanK says:
    @Charlesz Martel
    Fred is getting old, and he has a Mexican wife who appears to be heavily white- with I believe some Jewish ancestry as well, so she is probably fairly bright. She has a daughter, illegitimate, I believe, who also appears to be fairly bright. Mexicans are extremely aware of the realities of colorism and race (Telenovelas, anyone?) and his wife probably mated with a man with a very high percentage of white blood in him.

    Fred like regular sex. Fred likes clean laundry. Fred likes home-cooked meals. The romantic prospects for a man like Fred in the U.S. are more limiting, in many ways, than they are in Mexico, especially when it comes to marrying a woman with an illegitimate child in a Catholic country.

    Fred does not seem to understand what has happened to huge swaths of American cities due to the immivasion. I have lived in Spain, Miami, France, London, and travelled and lived in many other countries and places, and to put it simply, Fred is bullshitting us to keep the peace at home. Comparing an English mathematician with a mestizo day laborer who is most likely barely literate in Spanish, with Derbyshire, who speaks Chinese as well as English, is simply utterly absurd. It's like comparing Arab day laborers in France with graduates of Ecoloe de Science Politique ( an extremely prestigious French college where most government ministers graduate).

    That being said, Fred ought to write about how Americans who get involved in Mexican politics are liable to be thrown out of the country. Or how Mexicans treat immigrants from their southern neighbors.

    I have lost a lot of respect for Fred after reading this column. Fred, you need to learn how to control your woman better. This fawning and rationalizing doesn't fool anyone, especially a Mexican. They know how shitty much of their country is. Why else would 40% of them already live in the US?

    An American friend of mine, of Mexican descent, was sent to school in Mexico by his father to teach him a lesson about life. After he got shot in a drive-by, with his friend next to him killed and another friend shot as well, he pleaded to come home. I asked him the details of what had happened. He said they were sitting in the main square of Guadalajara, at a cafe, when boys from their high school came by in a pickup truck and opened fire on them from the truck bed. I asked him if it was over drugs or girls. He said no, it was over a STUDENT GOVERNMENT ELECTION. I couldn't believe it, and he said that these were the rich kids whose fathers could bail them out of anything. He told me that he considered Mexico savage (his words).

    I have seen similar Latin attitudes in Miami. Frankly, I could care less if anyone here believes me or not.

    Good comment. I think it’s reasonably fair to assume that Fred’s common law wife probably has a Mexican man on the side that satisfies her sexual needs. Mexican women are notorious for that sort of behavior, and Fred is just her “meal ticket” anyhow.
    I too have lost respect for Fred and now only read his articles for a laugh. It is a shame how he has essentially turned his back on everything he once held dear to his heart. Those things being: his children, his nation and his love of Southern White people and their culture.

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  61. Owly says:

    I normally enjoy Fred’s columns, but this had a shocking lack of understanding of the nature of Mexico. I’ll make it simple and straightforward:

    1. There are plenty of non-mestizo Mexicans in Mexico. “Non-mestizo,” as in white. Most of them are of Spanish extraction, but there are plenty of other European countries represented amongst them.

    2. In general, these white Mexicans live very well, and have their own towns or large, exclusive neighborhoods. Monterrey is a good example. I’ve spent quite a bit of time there visiting family, and in the wealthy parts of town you would think you’re in suburban America.

    3. These white Mexicans are not the ones fording the Rio Grande. They have little reason to go through the hassles of immigration, legal or otherwise.

    4. This is one of the largest reasons why the terms “Hispanic” and “Latino” are completely ridiculous, especially in their current context of racial distinction.

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  62. Mr. Blank says:

    I’m a fan of both Fred and John, so I’ll just stay away from this little scrum. I’ll note in passing though that it is entirely possible to like Mexicans as a people while still wanting them to stay mostly in Mexico.

    I used to live in L.A. and work alongside Mexican immigrants whose legal status was … varied, but mostly tending toward the wrong side of the law. And you know what? I really can’t say enough good things about them. You could scrub the recesses of my soul with a toothbrush and never find a speck of ill-feeling towards my Mexican brethren; they were fine people with a fine culture. (And they make the best liquor in the world — I’ll take a good tequila over the finest bourbon or single-malt scotch any day.) But I think my people and culture are just fine, too, and I’d prefer to keep my culture here while they keep their culture down there.

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  63. tsotha says:

    I’m sorry, you can’t be an immigrant and rail against immigration…

    The hell you can’t. There’s a huge difference between legal and illegal immigration. People who immigrated legally, like Derbyshire, have every right to rail against illegals. In fact, based on my interactions with legal Chinese and Indian immigrants it’s normal for them to do so.

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  64. The Amren conference is going on now. Are both Fred and John speaking? This might be a publicity gimmick for a forthcoming book or somesuch.

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  65. MarkinLA says:

    Mexico had a head start on the US. Mexico always had the ability to take the best of what the US and Europe had and make it Mexican. There is no reason on earth why Mexican universities are not considered part of the elites of the world. There is no reason in the world Mexico is not every bit as successful as the US or at least Italy. After all we aped a lot of what Europe had to offer. What reason could there possibly be for the difference?

    Oh, the people. When you also consider that we aren’t getting their best and brightest what does that say about our future?

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  66. MarkinLA says:

    A million American expatriates live in Mexico, John. If it were as benighted and awful as you believe, don’t you think they might, like, you know—have noticed?

    Fred did you also bother to notice that to stay in Mexico you have to prove you won’t ever be a public charge? What happens if you do, Fred? I imagine they boot you out pronto. Maybe we should follow Mexico’s law.

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  67. MarkinLA says:

    I refer you to a study (which I vey much encourage the reading of) by the best numerical analyst of my acquaintance—Ron Unz: you may know somewhat of him, John—who concluded that Hispanic crime is not much greater than white. There is La Griffe du Lion, probably a renegade math prof at Harvard or MIT, who did an exhaustive analysis and concluded “the data show that violent crime rates for Hispanics and non-Hispanic whites, though a bit higher for Hispanics, are in actual fact quite similar.

    Having seen what happens when a neighborhood becomes infested with Mexican gangs, I call BS on these studies. So much of Hispanic crime is gang oriented and there is no real way to know how many are criminals doing work for the gang and just haven’t been caught yet (or are still juveniles) and how many aren’t. Most of these street gangs are paying the street tax to the Mexican Mafia to be able to sell drugs and for protection once they go to the joint.

    There is a reason why ever town in southern California has added a graffiti abatement crew in the last 30 years and it isn’t Asian immigrants. If you ever watched one of these crews in action, part of the job is to take pictures to give to the gang units.

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  68. @Rich
    Although he has, to American ears, a fancy sounding last name, Derbyshire is in fact, a lower class Englishman who was unable to succeed in an England that used to have higher standards. He is an immigrant who stands against immigration, a supposed "white race realist" married to a Chinese and a worshiper of IQ who apparently didn't have a high enough IQ to succeed in the technical area (mathematics) in which he studied. He found an audience, plays the English lord, and makes a few bucks, not unlike an evangelical minister who beds hookers and takes drugs. All that said, I'd prefer English immigrants to Mexican immigrants.

    I’ve met Mr Derbyshire. In person he is humble, giving in conversation, and enjoyable to be around. He has also stood by his beliefs even when there was some cost to his reputation and his freelance work.
    Others have already stated here that there is a difference between educated and probably white Messicans, and which ones we are getting in hordes. I lived in northern Va in the 80′s and 90′s and as demographics changed I had many Mexican friends. My best friend to this day is Mexican. However, as the demographics further shifted the criminal element took over. MS13, a nice beheading just up the road,drugs, etc. It seems Fred lives in a safe place, away from Juarez, Edomex, Iguala, etc. He pretends that hundreds of girls are not stolen and used as sex slaves a year in these places, that the major crime from the lower class Mexicans creeping across the border is child molestation and drunk driving that often ends in injury or death (one of my friends was killed this way while walking to work) and that those folks often flee the scene. In short, he cherry picks the truth, because like a good liberal elitist would do when arguing for diversity, he can afford to live away from the problems.

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  69. MarkinLA says:

    For a look at typical crime in Mexifornia we have this case of a Hispanic vet gunned down for no apparent reason recently:

    http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/22-Year-Old-Veteran-Fatally-Shot-after-Own-Homecoming-Party-282063371.html

    It was first reported that he was an Afghan war vet and that his killer was in a tagging crew that were in conflict. In actuality, he was never in Afghanistan and was discharged from the army prematurely under a general discharge. He was stationed in New York. Given the circumstances, he was likely a gang member who was discovered trying to recruit for the gang when he was off base. He probably only had minor misdemeanor beefs on his record or his juvenile record was expunged.

    When he comes back he is gunned down by some 18 year old gang member who couldn’t have had a serious beef with the guy because the vet went into the service when the killer was no older than 16. Obviously, there was some beef with either another gang or the senior members of his own gang.

    One of the gang shot-callers handed the job to the 18 year old. What can that guy do. For the past many years he has probably been doing low level work like drug sales and enjoying the vida loca – getting high and knocking up the cholas. Now he either does what the gang leadership wants or they green-light him.

    The police quickly catch the killer. The gang unit knows he didn’t do all this on his own and the strategy in law enforcement is to take down the leadership so the underlings want to get out before they start doing major crimes. They probably squeezed him to get something on the gang leadership. Either out of fear or youthful bravado, he will likely refuse to roll over and get the full sentence of murder with special circumstances (gang activity) for himself. Not to worry, he will plead for life without parole and La Eme will provide him protection in San Quentin.

    Stories like this bring back so many memories of my teenage years in lily white neighborhoods.

    How many criminal acts are involved and how many are reported and prosecuted?

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    • Replies: @Blobby5
    Such an interesting insight.
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  70. Yossarian says:
    @Truth

    Well, Fred is basically a joke, but he is not color blind. =Fred has turned his back on his nation and race; a person like that should never be trusted.
    A “turn coat”, if you will
     

    Fred sure loves on his Mexicans…And hates on his Muslims!
     

    Fred’s brain very quickly turns to mush when the subject is latinos.
     
    Wow, Fredro's just trying to enculturate* you boring mayonnaise-on-your-Green-bean casserole eaters a little bit, and this is the thanks he gets?

    mayonnaise-on-your-Green-bean casserole

    Yup…Sounds like standard issue White people food.

    Makes me that much happier I was raised eating Middle Eastern.

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  71. syonredux says: • Website
    @silviosilver

    You’re not hanging out enough in the right circles.
     
    There are a couple of ways to interpret "considered to be white."

    The first is "interact with as though they were white." The second is "believe to be white."

    I have no trouble believing that your circles treat these people as they do whites. That's easy. One doesn't have to even have any white features to be extended such treatment. Generally, though, the whiter one looks the more likely one is to associate with whites and to be treated and reacted to as white. But such people are not necessarily believed to be white, and unless people in your circles sit around discussing it I don't see how you could know what race your friends believe white-asian mixes to be.

    In my own family I have a cousin who married a Malay. The son she had with him looks predominantly caucasoid - much the way many Indians do - but it's doubtful in the extreme anyone would ever call him white. The daughter looks predominantly asian, with nary a hint of white ancestry. It makes things very awkward for me, because the cousin in question is one of my favorites and the children are completely assimilated into white ways. But they are perceptive children and they can sense that, even though everyone is very polite and pleasant to them, they don't quite fit in. The son has obliquely hinted at this on a few occasions and, perhaps I'm seeing things, but he has a kind of resigned look in his eyes at family gatherings, where he and his sister really stand out. It makes it difficult for everyone and it's reason enough - even if didn't lead to white racial extinction - to disapprove of mixing.

    It makes it difficult for everyone and it’s reason enough – even if didn’t lead to white racial extinction – to disapprove of mixing.

    In general, I’m not inclined to approve of mixing.For example, being an Anglo, I would not be inclined to reproduce with an Estonian or a Finn.And I would be still less inclined to reproduce with a Chinese or a Japanese.

    However, my concern over interbreeding is greatest when it poses a civilization-wide threat.And, in the USA, Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds pose the greatest threat by far.

    Hence, I don’t waste too much energy on East Asian-Euro interbreeding in the USA.

    And most don’t.

    It would be interesting to see the numbers on that.I know, for example, that lots of White-Asian mixes who have Euro surnames (a very high percentage) tend to put White on their university applications .Unis have a history of trying to keep East Asian numbers down.Hence, it would seem that there is a bit of an incentive for them to not identify as East Asian.

    And because they don’t mixing with Asians has the effect of reducing white numbers and diluting white traits to the point of effective white non-existence.

    Well, as noted previously, we have no figures on this, just anecdotal evidence.As for diluting White traits, that’s a matter of numbers.If the East Asian fraction is small enough (as it is right now in the USA) it can be absorbed by the Euro population.

    “Racial preservation has to be based on racial reality, no matter how difficult it may be – not on racial fantasy, however pleasant that may be. In the long-term, mixing is the mechanism – it and no other – that will remove whites from the earth. Unfortunately, talking about mixing calmly and rationally, and exploring means to mitigate the threat it poses, is so difficult that most people – and you’re a good example – simply cannot bring themselves to do it. Thus fantasy drives out reality and whites continue to fade away into eventual nothingness.”

    Actually, I think that I am doing a rather good job of grounding this in the facts.East Asian numbers are low, but Hispanic Mestizo/Amerind numbers are high.Hence, it seems to me that the Euro population in the USA can more or less absorb the East Asians who are here without too much difficulty.Mexican Mestizos/Amerinds, in contrast, are the proverbial pig in the python, and they threaten to absorb us.

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    • Replies: @JSM
    "East Asian numbers are low, but Hispanic Mestizo/Amerind numbers are high.Hence, it seems to me that the Euro population in the USA can more or less absorb the East Asians who are here without too much difficulty."

    Sounds logical.

    Here's the thing. Back in the '80s, Ronald Reagan gave amnesty to, we were told at the time, just a mere handful, a million or so, illegal aliens from Mexico, with the assurance that, We Promise, Cross Our Hearts, You Can Trust US, henceforth the borders would be closed and NO MORE Mexicans would get in.

    Now there's 8-11 million illegals (HAH! More like 50 million when you are honest and include their anchor babies) clogging the freeways with smoke-farter cars, while themselves contentedly farting pinto-bean-gas as they weave along. Now public schools in the Northern Plains have to spend vast sums of scarce dollars on "English Language Learner" mestizo kids, who shouldn't even BE here. Now you can't go to Walmart in Boise without loud arguments in Spanish assaulting your ears while fat Mexican asses assault your eye and block your path in every aisle.

    Where the heck did all the excess illegals come from? The ones we were pinky-promised would NEVER get in? That first amnestied bunch was just the camel's nose under the tent. They, being legal, provided the housing, the forged documents, the networking for jobs under the table to their still-in-Mexico cousins to comfortably stay once they successfully made the border run.

    Now here we are, 30 years later and California is gone, with much of the rest of the country sinking fast.

    Tell me again how "just a few" Asians are no threat?
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  72. Blobby5 says:
    @MarkinLA
    For a look at typical crime in Mexifornia we have this case of a Hispanic vet gunned down for no apparent reason recently:

    http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/22-Year-Old-Veteran-Fatally-Shot-after-Own-Homecoming-Party-282063371.html

    It was first reported that he was an Afghan war vet and that his killer was in a tagging crew that were in conflict. In actuality, he was never in Afghanistan and was discharged from the army prematurely under a general discharge. He was stationed in New York. Given the circumstances, he was likely a gang member who was discovered trying to recruit for the gang when he was off base. He probably only had minor misdemeanor beefs on his record or his juvenile record was expunged.

    When he comes back he is gunned down by some 18 year old gang member who couldn't have had a serious beef with the guy because the vet went into the service when the killer was no older than 16. Obviously, there was some beef with either another gang or the senior members of his own gang.

    One of the gang shot-callers handed the job to the 18 year old. What can that guy do. For the past many years he has probably been doing low level work like drug sales and enjoying the vida loca - getting high and knocking up the cholas. Now he either does what the gang leadership wants or they green-light him.

    The police quickly catch the killer. The gang unit knows he didn't do all this on his own and the strategy in law enforcement is to take down the leadership so the underlings want to get out before they start doing major crimes. They probably squeezed him to get something on the gang leadership. Either out of fear or youthful bravado, he will likely refuse to roll over and get the full sentence of murder with special circumstances (gang activity) for himself. Not to worry, he will plead for life without parole and La Eme will provide him protection in San Quentin.

    Stories like this bring back so many memories of my teenage years in lily white neighborhoods.

    How many criminal acts are involved and how many are reported and prosecuted?

    Such an interesting insight.

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  73. John C says:
    @Rich
    But Mr. Debyshire brought his spouse, a Chinese national, with him, further diluting the White population of the US. How is that a good thing? The America my ancestors founded and built was a European nation related by both blood and religion, Mr. Derbyshire is a guest here and although he might make some valid points, I believe he is a hypocrite and a fraud because, as Granny used to say, "Actions speak louder than words."

    You seem to confuse the “terms” “race realist” and “white nationalist.” Derb has never claimed to be a white nationalist.

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    • Replies: @Rich
    Actually, a "race realist" is supposed to recognize that by mixing races you dilute your own race and bring about its destruction. A "white nationalist" would be someone who believes in creating a Whites only nation. Hope that clears it up for you.
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  74. D. K. says:

    John Derbyshire is a naturalized citizen of the United States; he is no longer a mere guest in my country.

    As for that supposed million of Americans living in paradisiacal Mexico, how many of those are non-Hispanic Whites, like Mr. Reed, and how many are ethnic Mexicans? Indeed, how many of that supposed million actually are native Mexicans who moved to the United States, took out dual citizenship, after five or more years here, but eventually returned to live in Mexico? I suspect that the Fred Reed type is a minor percentage of that supposed million.

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    Belatedly checking Mr. Reed's hyperlinked source for his claim that one million American expatriates now live in Mexico, I find that he is citing that authoritative source on international demographics, internationalliving.com. Let us quote his proffered proof directly:

    ***

    "Reports are that approximately one million Americans live in Mexico. While it’s hard to verify that number, it’s not hard to imagine that it’s true. Some are working, of course, for U.S., Mexican, or other foreign corporations. You’ll find them in cities like Mexico City, Queretaro, and Monterrey.

    "And some live in Mexico just part-time…spending winter months in vacation homes where the weather is always warm and the cervezas are always cold.

    "Many Americans in Mexico, however, have moved there to enjoy their retirement years. They live in Mexico full-time and enjoy better weather, a more relaxed lifestyle, and a host of other benefits—including affordable top-quality health care and a much lower overall cost of living."

    ***

    Very authoritative indeed, Mr. Reed-- and very convincing that any native-born, non-Hispanic, White American would be welcomed into the midst of Mexican society, and feel right at home there!

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  75. D. K. says:
    @D. K.
    John Derbyshire is a naturalized citizen of the United States; he is no longer a mere guest in my country.

    As for that supposed million of Americans living in paradisiacal Mexico, how many of those are non-Hispanic Whites, like Mr. Reed, and how many are ethnic Mexicans? Indeed, how many of that supposed million actually are native Mexicans who moved to the United States, took out dual citizenship, after five or more years here, but eventually returned to live in Mexico? I suspect that the Fred Reed type is a minor percentage of that supposed million.

    Belatedly checking Mr. Reed’s hyperlinked source for his claim that one million American expatriates now live in Mexico, I find that he is citing that authoritative source on international demographics, internationalliving.com. Let us quote his proffered proof directly:

    ***

    “Reports are that approximately one million Americans live in Mexico. While it’s hard to verify that number, it’s not hard to imagine that it’s true. Some are working, of course, for U.S., Mexican, or other foreign corporations. You’ll find them in cities like Mexico City, Queretaro, and Monterrey.

    “And some live in Mexico just part-time…spending winter months in vacation homes where the weather is always warm and the cervezas are always cold.

    “Many Americans in Mexico, however, have moved there to enjoy their retirement years. They live in Mexico full-time and enjoy better weather, a more relaxed lifestyle, and a host of other benefits—including affordable top-quality health care and a much lower overall cost of living.”

    ***

    Very authoritative indeed, Mr. Reed– and very convincing that any native-born, non-Hispanic, White American would be welcomed into the midst of Mexican society, and feel right at home there!

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    • Replies: @Jim
    It's true that with sufficent money it is possible to live very well in a third world economy. Indeed in many African hell-holes the elites live very well indeed. But the fact that the president of Equatorial Guinea is very rich does not mean that Equatorial Guinea is a model for us to emulate.
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  76. Jim says:

    Regarding violent crime – if one checks lists of the most violent cities in the world almost all of them are in Latin America or the Caribbean, many of them are in Mexico. Mexico seems an extraordinarily violent society to me as well as having one of the highest levels of corruption in the world.

    Nothing that I know of Mexican history suggest to me that the massive immigration of Mexicans into the US will have very negative consequences for Americans.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Well, crime rate in LA collapsed when Mexicans replaced blacks as the largest minority.
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  77. Jim says:
    @D. K.
    Belatedly checking Mr. Reed's hyperlinked source for his claim that one million American expatriates now live in Mexico, I find that he is citing that authoritative source on international demographics, internationalliving.com. Let us quote his proffered proof directly:

    ***

    "Reports are that approximately one million Americans live in Mexico. While it’s hard to verify that number, it’s not hard to imagine that it’s true. Some are working, of course, for U.S., Mexican, or other foreign corporations. You’ll find them in cities like Mexico City, Queretaro, and Monterrey.

    "And some live in Mexico just part-time…spending winter months in vacation homes where the weather is always warm and the cervezas are always cold.

    "Many Americans in Mexico, however, have moved there to enjoy their retirement years. They live in Mexico full-time and enjoy better weather, a more relaxed lifestyle, and a host of other benefits—including affordable top-quality health care and a much lower overall cost of living."

    ***

    Very authoritative indeed, Mr. Reed-- and very convincing that any native-born, non-Hispanic, White American would be welcomed into the midst of Mexican society, and feel right at home there!

    It’s true that with sufficent money it is possible to live very well in a third world economy. Indeed in many African hell-holes the elites live very well indeed. But the fact that the president of Equatorial Guinea is very rich does not mean that Equatorial Guinea is a model for us to emulate.

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  78. @Eustace Tilley (not)
    Darling Fred:

    You are almost always a delight to read. Not this time. It is becoming tiresome reading your paeans to the glorious Mexican Civilization. You are insulting your readers at Unz.com.

    Yes, Mexico doubtless has hospitals as good as the U.S. I'm sure that it has many fine Ph.D.'s in electrical engineering and chemical engineering and aerospace science and so on. Mexico can build highways as well as the French or Swedes and, if your Apple computer has a glitch, there are clever fellows in Guadalajara who can fix it. These are not the people who are filling the prisons of California and collecting welfare in Arizona.

    What Derbyshire and his ilk are saying is: If your brilliant Ph.D. Mexicans are so great, why don't they fill out the paperwork and come here legally, as the almost-equally brilliant Ph.D.'s from Singapore and China and Slovenia have to do, instead of fording the Rio Bravo in violation of our laws?

    Got a clever comeback for that, amigo?

    What Derbyshire and his ilk are saying is: If your brilliant Ph.D. Mexicans are so great, why don’t they fill out the paperwork and come here legally, as the almost-equally brilliant Ph.D.’s from Singapore and China and Slovenia have to do, instead of fording the Rio Bravo in violation of our laws?

    Got a clever comeback for that, amigo?

    Dunno about Freddy, but I’ll wing it. I know many Mexicans who DO immigrate legally and are ensconced as doctors, accountants, engineers, etc.

    The thing Fred fails to acknowledge is Mexico’s caste system. That caste system, taken for granted in Mexico, is completely foreign to Americans taught that a Mexican is a Mexican is a Mexican. In fact, Mexico is Criollos (including Mirreyes – Google it), Mestizos, Indios, and Negros in order of status. In cities you will find Criollo doctors, lawyers, realtors, entrepreneurs, engineers, and all the professions needed for a modern society to function. These folk are assisted by Mestizos who can and do often enough rise to the professional level (but much less often to social level) of the Criollos. The Indios are the indigenous population and many still reside on ancestral ejidos. I assume it’s still possible to visit a remote ejido (similar to American Indian reservation) where you might be the first white person some Indio has seen. You can be a rare enough sight to create a stir anyway. Negros are rare in just about all of Mexico with small populations in some port cities.

    Now many of the Mexicans who immigrate to Los Estados Unidos are of lower class Mestizo and Indio heredity. These are the lower average IQ Mexicans of 87 or whatever. They’ve failed economically, or struggled is perhaps more accurate, and come to America because America has invited them. America gives them jobs where they can send money home and it is BIG money they send back. It’s Mexico’s second largest source of revenue!

    The problem is America. Not Mexico. Mexico functions just fine with a very traditional society and structure. The lower classes know their place, do their job, and mainly cause trouble among themselves. They’ve gotten into kidnapping for ransom which Mexico needs to stamp out, but victims generally go home alive after ransom is paid anyway. Mexican elites live with it by hiring private security like Americans have lived with the Mafia for a century. The Narcotraficantes are a newer development as Mexicans captured the drug smuggling routes from Columbians and Americans who did the job in the 1970′s to early 1990′s. The Mexicans are no more ruthless or violent than the Columbians – just more flamboyant maybe in signaling to competitors and law enforcement. But here too, it’s an American problem as WE demand the drugs and WE refuse to legitimize the business.

    If America would stop giving jobs and welfare benefits to Mexicans, the overwhelming majority would go home and live in the windowless homes (they have window openings, just no glass in them) on their family farm, ejido, or congested city block. Things would become MUCH worse in Mexico to be sure without the income from American jobs, but they’d survive. Especially as birth rates decline among mestizos and Indios, quality of life without American jobs would rise and Mexico would continue being Mexico.

    America on the other hand would still have 40 million negroes who are either refusing to work, committing crimes, or “working” government jobs that serve no purpose except that they’re not welfare or jail. A tiny fraction of the negroes would still have the intelligence to succeed and some of them would do that while the overwhelming majority would try to recreate Africa in our midst. So America’s leaders have decided our best course is permanently installing this Mexican population as buffer between whites and negroes. That’s the bottom line reality here. Nobody knows what to do with the negroes so we install a buffer and ignore the problem hoping idiotically it will go away.

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  79. @Anonymous
    "Mexican doctors"

    Betcha a bottle of tequila that more than one-in-six of those Mexican doctors is white.

    Johannesburg also has fancy hospitals, bookstores and whatnot. Does not mean that indiscriminately importing South Africans wholesale is a good idea.

    "How, having invited them in and put them on welfare, can the US complain that they are in, and on welfare?"

    More than 11 million (more than the entire population of Sweden) are in America illegally - half of them Mexican. They were not "invited in".

    More than 11 million (more than the entire population of Sweden) are in America illegally – half of them Mexican. They were not “invited in”.

    Don’t be dense. If they weren’t “invited in,” then why were they given jobs, welfare, and housing? They’re not in hiding like the Hole in the Wall Gang, they’re right out in the open every day in every city. We could round them up and send them packing whenever we wanted. We don’t.

    The failure, if that’s how you view it, is OURS. It is OUR politicians and leaders (particularly the business owners) responsible. Blame them. String them up by lamp posts. If the Mexican can’t find work or housing he will go home.

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  80. @2Mintzin1
    Mr. Reed, you have lost it. Your rant on Derbyshire is straw man B.S.
    Derbyshire lives in the area of Huntington, Suffolk County, Long Island, which has been inundated with illegal immigrants. Huntington Station is a particularly populous area for them, because of cheap housing, I suppose.
    MS-13 and the Mexican Mafia have brought Long Island's young people the gift of cheap heroin, and the resulting wave of overdoses is not pleasant to be around. Houses built for families are now used as hot sheet boardinghouses, in which a group of 15-25 young illegal immigrant men live in the basement, attic, etc., and sleep in shifts. In one instance that I am personally aware of, the cesspool was overwhelmed, and the men resorted to digging latrines in the backyard for their waste. There are plenty of uninsured and unlicensed Mexican drivers around, too. If one of them hits you and injures you, you had better have a substantial uninsured/underinsured insurance policy because you will be on your own. The Mexican driver may be briefly jailed , but he will then be bailed out and disappear.
    Construction crews, which used to employ large numbers of American blacks, are now largely, if not exclusively. Mexican and Central American. The blacks are out of luck.
    I speak as a former resident of Selden, Long Island , which is separated from Farmingville (yes, that Farmingville) by the width of a two-lane local road. I think both I and Mr. Derbyshire have a better awareness of the effects of opening our southern border on the middle-class and lower-class communities of Long Island than you do.
    Since leaving the states for Mexico, you have spent an increasing amount of your column space sniping at Americans. You now identify more with Mexicans than with Americans, to the point that Mexico is your adopted country. Nothing wrong with that, I suppose, but the quality of your columns is deteriorating as a result.

    Construction crews, which used to employ large numbers of American blacks, are now largely, if not exclusively. Mexican and Central American. The blacks are out of luck.

    Yes, but you miss the forest for the trees. The Mexicans make better workers than the negroes. So businesses hire the Mexicans because they are allowed to do so. The rest of your post is just symptomatic. The CORE issue is that we still have no idea what to do about our negroes. Or, even more core, rather than learning our lesson from the failed negro importation program, we imported Mexicans to be our new and improved negroes.

    So, really, the bottom line is Universalism. Whites think we are too good to dig ditches. We are all the same, all equal. We are all above average. So we bring in non-whites to do the nasty jobs. Then we complain when the non-whites behave like non-whites. The most sanctimonious whites assert Universalism includes the non-whites who start believing they too are all above average and the cycle continues.

    You want this to end? Put your idiot children to work digging ditches and stop pretending they’re smart enough to be doctors when they have an IQ of 100.

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    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    Whites think we are too good to dig ditches. We are all the same, all equal. We are all above average. So we bring in non-whites to do the nasty jobs. Then we complain when the non-whites behave like non-whites. The most sanctimonious whites assert Universalism includes the non-whites who start believing they too are all above average and the cycle continues.

    This is BS. The whites and some blacks were doing those jobs - just at decent pay. Some saintly businessman decided to fire the whites and blacks and hire the Mexicans because they would live 25 in a small house to get paid half the wages of the white and blacks. They weren't "invited" in by the average American.
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  81. field says:

    You’re all wet Fred. Take it from someone who not only was born in the U.S., but who has passed all the litmus tests (I danced with Wicked Wanda in Gulf Shores, have you?). It’s not about stupidity, it’s about language. I don’t want to have to hear Spanish. That’s it, the whole thing right there. All of us, especially those in California, spent decades treating foreigners courteously, so long as they didn’t surround us with their language, which Mexicans are now doing. Derbyshire and his ilk don’t present this problem. So your piece is just another exercise in strawmanning.

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    • Replies: @Eustace Tilley (not)
    "I don't want to have to hear Spanish."

    I sympathize, to some extent, with your feelings. This isn't the USA you were born into. But this isn't the world we were born into. I don't "want" to be waited on by a clerk with orange hair and face piercings; I don't "want" to hear the MSM drone on about the inevitability of President Hillary; I don't "want" to hear hip hop (loud) blaring from the car next to me at a red light; I don't "want" to see Margaret Sanger on the $20 bill.

    Too bad, Heraclitus. You really can't step into the same river twice. No point huddling in a corner with your security blanket, asking, "Shall I accept the Universe?" As an alternative strategy, do what the winners do, not what the losers/whiners do: Learn to swim with the current. I watch Univision and Telemundo with the closed captioning on to learn Spanish and to dig the hot babes.
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  82. @field
    You're all wet Fred. Take it from someone who not only was born in the U.S., but who has passed all the litmus tests (I danced with Wicked Wanda in Gulf Shores, have you?). It's not about stupidity, it's about language. I don't want to have to hear Spanish. That's it, the whole thing right there. All of us, especially those in California, spent decades treating foreigners courteously, so long as they didn't surround us with their language, which Mexicans are now doing. Derbyshire and his ilk don't present this problem. So your piece is just another exercise in strawmanning.

    “I don’t want to have to hear Spanish.”

    I sympathize, to some extent, with your feelings. This isn’t the USA you were born into. But this isn’t the world we were born into. I don’t “want” to be waited on by a clerk with orange hair and face piercings; I don’t “want” to hear the MSM drone on about the inevitability of President Hillary; I don’t “want” to hear hip hop (loud) blaring from the car next to me at a red light; I don’t “want” to see Margaret Sanger on the $20 bill.

    Too bad, Heraclitus. You really can’t step into the same river twice. No point huddling in a corner with your security blanket, asking, “Shall I accept the Universe?” As an alternative strategy, do what the winners do, not what the losers/whiners do: Learn to swim with the current. I watch Univision and Telemundo with the closed captioning on to learn Spanish and to dig the hot babes.

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    • Replies: @Marty
    I already speak Spanish. Learned it in the '70's. It's what allowed me to represent farm workers in Bakersfield 30 years ago. I guess you're a troll, since your answer is not only flippant, but unresponsive. Fred's main point is that we hate Mexicans qua Mexicans. Hence my clarification.
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  83. Marty says:
    @Eustace Tilley (not)
    "I don't want to have to hear Spanish."

    I sympathize, to some extent, with your feelings. This isn't the USA you were born into. But this isn't the world we were born into. I don't "want" to be waited on by a clerk with orange hair and face piercings; I don't "want" to hear the MSM drone on about the inevitability of President Hillary; I don't "want" to hear hip hop (loud) blaring from the car next to me at a red light; I don't "want" to see Margaret Sanger on the $20 bill.

    Too bad, Heraclitus. You really can't step into the same river twice. No point huddling in a corner with your security blanket, asking, "Shall I accept the Universe?" As an alternative strategy, do what the winners do, not what the losers/whiners do: Learn to swim with the current. I watch Univision and Telemundo with the closed captioning on to learn Spanish and to dig the hot babes.

    I already speak Spanish. Learned it in the ’70′s. It’s what allowed me to represent farm workers in Bakersfield 30 years ago. I guess you’re a troll, since your answer is not only flippant, but unresponsive. Fred’s main point is that we hate Mexicans qua Mexicans. Hence my clarification.

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  84. MarkinLA says:
    @Stan D Mute

    Construction crews, which used to employ large numbers of American blacks, are now largely, if not exclusively. Mexican and Central American. The blacks are out of luck.
     
    Yes, but you miss the forest for the trees. The Mexicans make better workers than the negroes. So businesses hire the Mexicans because they are allowed to do so. The rest of your post is just symptomatic. The CORE issue is that we still have no idea what to do about our negroes. Or, even more core, rather than learning our lesson from the failed negro importation program, we imported Mexicans to be our new and improved negroes.

    So, really, the bottom line is Universalism. Whites think we are too good to dig ditches. We are all the same, all equal. We are all above average. So we bring in non-whites to do the nasty jobs. Then we complain when the non-whites behave like non-whites. The most sanctimonious whites assert Universalism includes the non-whites who start believing they too are all above average and the cycle continues.

    You want this to end? Put your idiot children to work digging ditches and stop pretending they're smart enough to be doctors when they have an IQ of 100.

    Whites think we are too good to dig ditches. We are all the same, all equal. We are all above average. So we bring in non-whites to do the nasty jobs. Then we complain when the non-whites behave like non-whites. The most sanctimonious whites assert Universalism includes the non-whites who start believing they too are all above average and the cycle continues.

    This is BS. The whites and some blacks were doing those jobs – just at decent pay. Some saintly businessman decided to fire the whites and blacks and hire the Mexicans because they would live 25 in a small house to get paid half the wages of the white and blacks. They weren’t “invited” in by the average American.

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  85. Bliss says:
    @Rex Little
    Derb isn't against all immigration, nor is he against illegal immigration per se. He's against mass immigration (legal or otherwise), especially mass immigration from radically different cultures.

    Being a race realist doesn't make Derb a hypocrite for marrying a Chinese woman, not at all. A race realist recognizes group differences between races, but also knows that individual variances within any race are far greater than these group differences. A race realist also knows that East Asian IQs average higher than white, so if you're white and want smart kids. . . I leave the rest as an exercise to the reader.

    A race realist also knows that East Asian IQs average higher than white, so if you’re white and want smart kids. . . I leave the rest as an exercise to the reader.

    Likewise, you race realists also know that people of west african ancestry are more athletic than europeans (and more gifted and creative in music, literature, oratory etc). So if you are white and want athletic, outgoing, creative children…

    Basically, according to you, race realism should lead to race mixing. Who doesn’t want his kids to be more intelligent, athletic etc than the average?

    Btw, if you really cherish IQ so much why would you want east asians to have lower IQ kids by marrying whites?

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    "Likewise, you race realists also know that people of west african ancestry are more athletic than europeans (and more gifted and creative in music, literature, oratory etc)."

    This is so laughable that you have to have a brain like a bocci ball to believe it! It is not even true of athletics, unless you limit athletics to a few of the prominent sports-- especially basketball and, to a lesser extent, football-- as well as to the sprinting and jumping events in track and field. In the wider range of competitive sports-- including the world's most popular sport, soccer-- Blacks of West African descent fall somewhere between mediocre and not-at-all-competitive. As a group, Whites are actualy stronger, and also have far better staying power, than West Africans-- not to mention Whites' obviously being far more intelligent than Blacks.

    As for the parenthetical claims about music, literature, oratory, etc., you must have a brain closer to a cue ball than a bocci ball to believe such rot! The roll call of White Europeans in those fields, when compared to the paucity of West Africans, is so embarrassing to the latter that one must resort to comparing Armstrong and Coltrane to Bach and Beethoven, Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison to Shakespeare and Goethe, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to Pericles and Cicero-- and on and on.... Brains like cue balls seem to work that way, though. That is why borderline-retarded Blacks have notably higher self-esteem than high-IQ White Europeans-- and naturally act out accordingly.
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  86. Truth has it right: if Mexico is as good as Fred writes, why do millions of Mexicans want to come here or already have?

    The frank answer is that Fred is wrong; obviously wrong actually. Mexico is a miserable place for the typical Mexican. As the old line goes: It’s a great place to be from.

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  87. Rich says:
    @John C
    You seem to confuse the "terms" "race realist" and "white nationalist." Derb has never claimed to be a white nationalist.

    Actually, a “race realist” is supposed to recognize that by mixing races you dilute your own race and bring about its destruction. A “white nationalist” would be someone who believes in creating a Whites only nation. Hope that clears it up for you.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    A "race realist" is simply someone who acknowledges racial differences. A "racial nationalist" would be someone who values or prioritizes his own race.
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  88. D. K. says:
    @Bliss

    A race realist also knows that East Asian IQs average higher than white, so if you’re white and want smart kids. . . I leave the rest as an exercise to the reader.
     
    Likewise, you race realists also know that people of west african ancestry are more athletic than europeans (and more gifted and creative in music, literature, oratory etc). So if you are white and want athletic, outgoing, creative children...

    Basically, according to you, race realism should lead to race mixing. Who doesn't want his kids to be more intelligent, athletic etc than the average?

    Btw, if you really cherish IQ so much why would you want east asians to have lower IQ kids by marrying whites?

    “Likewise, you race realists also know that people of west african ancestry are more athletic than europeans (and more gifted and creative in music, literature, oratory etc).”

    This is so laughable that you have to have a brain like a bocci ball to believe it! It is not even true of athletics, unless you limit athletics to a few of the prominent sports– especially basketball and, to a lesser extent, football– as well as to the sprinting and jumping events in track and field. In the wider range of competitive sports– including the world’s most popular sport, soccer– Blacks of West African descent fall somewhere between mediocre and not-at-all-competitive. As a group, Whites are actualy stronger, and also have far better staying power, than West Africans– not to mention Whites’ obviously being far more intelligent than Blacks.

    As for the parenthetical claims about music, literature, oratory, etc., you must have a brain closer to a cue ball than a bocci ball to believe such rot! The roll call of White Europeans in those fields, when compared to the paucity of West Africans, is so embarrassing to the latter that one must resort to comparing Armstrong and Coltrane to Bach and Beethoven, Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison to Shakespeare and Goethe, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to Pericles and Cicero– and on and on…. Brains like cue balls seem to work that way, though. That is why borderline-retarded Blacks have notably higher self-esteem than high-IQ White Europeans– and naturally act out accordingly.

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    • Replies: @Truth

    As for the parenthetical claims about music, literature, oratory, etc., you must have a brain closer to a cue ball than a bocci ball to believe such rot! The roll call of White Europeans in those fields, when compared to the paucity of West Africans, is so embarrassing to the latter that one must resort to comparing Armstrong and Coltrane to Bach and Beethoven, Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison to Shakespeare and Goethe, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to Pericles and Cicero–
     
    How come everyone you mentioned on the Caucasoid side has been dead for 200 years?
    , @Bliss

    It is not even true of athletics, unless you limit athletics to a few of the prominent sports– especially basketball and, to a lesser extent, football– as well as to the sprinting and jumping events in track and field.
     
    Another race "realist" who is hopelessly out of touch with reality. Educate your bocce ball ignoramus:

    Soccer: Pele (best ever). And numerous others.
    Golf: Tiger Woods (best or second best ever)
    Tennis: Serena Williams (best ever)
    Formula 1: Lewis Hamilton (World Champion)
    Boxing: black domination
    Basketball: black domination
    Football: black domination
    Running: black domination
    Body Building: black domination
    MMA: Anderson Silva (best ever). Jon Jones current best
    Judo: Teddy Riner (best ever)
    Baseball: Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Barry Bonds (top three ever)

    Bleacher Report's top ten sportsmen of all time has 8 blacks including #1 and only one white (at #9). ESPN's list has 3 blacks as the top 3. Btw, Michael Jordan tops both lists.
    , @Bliss

    one must resort to comparing Armstrong and Coltrane to Bach and Beethoven, Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison to Shakespeare and Goethe
     
    I am glad you mentioned Beethoven, since he is a good example of the brazenly dishonest whitewashing of history:

    http://www.mdcbowen.org/p2/sf/faq068.htm

    Frederick Hertz, German anthropologist, in "Race and Civilization," refers twice to Beethoven's "Negroid traits" and his "dark" skin, and "flat, thick nose." (pp. 123 and 178).

    Frau Fischer, an intimate acquaintance of Beethoven, describes him thus, "Short, stocky, broad shoulders, short neck, round nose, blackish-brown complexion." (From r. H. Schauffler, The Man Who Freed Music, Vol. I, p. 18, 1929).

    Alexander W. Thayer, perhaps the foremost authority on Beethoven, says, "Beethoven had even more of the Moor in his features than his master, 'Haydn.'" (Beethoven, Vol. I, p. 146).

    Paul Bekker, another very noted authority on Beethoven, says that "the most faithful picture of Beethoven's head" shows him with "wide, thick lipped mouth, short, thick nose, and proudly arched forehead." (Beethoven, p. 41, 1925. trans. Bozman). Thayer adds that Beethoven was an ugly little man, and no one would be more astonished than the great composer should he return and see how he has been idealized by sculptors and painters.

    Beethoven's family originated in Belgium, which had been ruled for centuries by the Spaniards, who had large numbers of Negro soldiers in their army there. Theophile Gautier speaks of a Belgian type characterized by brown skin and dark hair "a second race which the soldiers of the Spanish Duke of Alva have sown between Brussels and Cambrai."

    In short, the general description of Beethoven, even to his frizzly hair, fits that of many an Aframerican or West Indian mulatto. In the Southern States Beethoven would have been forced to ride in the jim-crow car.

    See also: Rogers, J.A., "Sex and Race," Vol. I, pp. 288, 289,302 (1941) for other data on Beethoven's Negro strain, one of which is from the new York Times. Also p. 8 for portrait of Beethoven drawn from life by Hofel, which clearly shows the Negro strain. For more extended proof as well as a picture of Beethoven's life-mask see Sex and Race, Vol. 3, pp. 306-309.




    You should also educate yourself about Pushkin (the greatest literary figure of Russia), Antarah bin Shaddad (the greatest poet cum warrior of the arabs), Machado de Assis (the greatest writer in portuguese), Alexandre Dumas (the most popular writer in french) etc. All of them had african ancestry.

    Btw, I have made the case elsewhere on Unz.com that Shakespeare too could have been mixed race like Pushkin who was his russian equivalent.
    , @Stan D Mute

    That is why borderline-retarded Blacks have notably higher self-esteem than high-IQ White Europeans– and naturally act out accordingly.
     
    I believe it's a combination of factors.

    1 - they're simply too dumb to realize how dumb they really are.
    2 - they're isolated from much smarter whites and Asians by being in schools no sane white or Asian parent would subject his kids to the misery of attending -or-
    3 - if in the same school, they're not in the same classes with the exception of the smartest negroes and dumbest whites/Asians and/or non cognitively challenging classes
    4 - media and pop culture propaganda with the "magic negro" who saves the day (ie Morgan Freeman in every movie)
    5 - delusional fantasy on the part of the negroes unable to accept reality (ie the afrocentrists and negro commenters here)
    6 - trolls (online anyway)

    It would be interesting to learn the statistical distributions and what other beliefs accompany this delusion. We know, for example, certain mental illness is found disproportionately in negro populations. How much of the "negro supremacy" delusion is tied to other delusions?

    Just from my own lifetime of experiences with negroes, the smartest among them want to distance themselves as much as possible from their genetic cousins frequently marrying white or Asian spouses and having social circles with no other negroes at all. Here you'd find the Clarence Thomas, Thomas Sowell, Uncle Tom types. There are also some brighter negroes who epitomize the "angry black man" stereotype. This seems the group from which the Malcolm X, Louis Farrakhan, Reverend Wright, and Barry Obola are drawn. There are so few negroes with IQ's above 110-120 that it's probably burdensome for them to avoid the spotlight in a society desperate for intelligent negro role models. From IQ 90-110 I expect you'll find most of the stable negro family men working in professional roles and mainly integrated into overall society. And in the majority from 90 down to the bottom you get the bulk of the criminals and those dumb enough to believe the "Afro supremacy" nonsense rather than simply spouting it for troll effect.
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  89. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @silviosilver

    Actually, some do.
     
    And most don't. And because they don't mixing with Asians has the effect of reducing white numbers and diluting white traits to the point of effective white non-existence. Racial preservation has to be based on racial reality, no matter how difficult it may be - not on racial fantasy, however pleasant that may be. In the long-term, mixing is the mechanism - it and no other - that will remove whites from the earth. Unfortunately, talking about mixing calmly and rationally, and exploring means to mitigate the threat it poses, is so difficult that most people - and you're a good example - simply cannot bring themselves to do it. Thus fantasy drives out reality and whites continue to fade away into eventual nothingness.

    In the long term, mutation and genetic drift alone would make any future populations descended from contemporary white populations more different from contemporary white populations than contemporary white populations are from any other contemporary group.

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    In the longer term, the Earth either will fall into an engorged Sun, while the latter runs out of its hydrogen, or instead be rendered a permanent chunk of charcoal, orbiting as the closest remaining planetary satellite. As a nun at my old grade school used to say: ". . . and it will be good riddance to bad rubbish!"
    , @silviosilver

    In the long term, mutation and genetic drift alone would make any future populations descended from contemporary white populations more different from contemporary white populations than contemporary white populations are from any other contemporary group.
     
    That would be an "organic" kind of change, though, which I have a feeling would be more beneficial that race-replacement by third world riff-raff. And besides, ten or twenty thousand years is a long time. But thanks for your "concern" (heh).
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  90. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Rich
    Actually, a "race realist" is supposed to recognize that by mixing races you dilute your own race and bring about its destruction. A "white nationalist" would be someone who believes in creating a Whites only nation. Hope that clears it up for you.

    A “race realist” is simply someone who acknowledges racial differences. A “racial nationalist” would be someone who values or prioritizes his own race.

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  91. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Truth
    Unznalsits jousting with each other? Must be Sweeps Week.

    As everyone here knows, I'm black so I'm 2 points dumber than Mess-kins, but there is one question I have that just never seems to be answered, no matter how many issues of the brilliant Fred Reed Canon I am blessed to have been privy to:

    Mexico has world class women, hospitals, lifestyle and education. Excellent family values, brilliant people, highways, and civil services, world-class social life, warmth, clean, functional cities, and people who love each other.

    Again, excuse my ignorance, but here is my question; then why do so many of them seem desperate to come here?

    They just want to be closer to American Blacks.

    Read More
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  92. Truth says:
    @D. K.
    "Likewise, you race realists also know that people of west african ancestry are more athletic than europeans (and more gifted and creative in music, literature, oratory etc)."

    This is so laughable that you have to have a brain like a bocci ball to believe it! It is not even true of athletics, unless you limit athletics to a few of the prominent sports-- especially basketball and, to a lesser extent, football-- as well as to the sprinting and jumping events in track and field. In the wider range of competitive sports-- including the world's most popular sport, soccer-- Blacks of West African descent fall somewhere between mediocre and not-at-all-competitive. As a group, Whites are actualy stronger, and also have far better staying power, than West Africans-- not to mention Whites' obviously being far more intelligent than Blacks.

    As for the parenthetical claims about music, literature, oratory, etc., you must have a brain closer to a cue ball than a bocci ball to believe such rot! The roll call of White Europeans in those fields, when compared to the paucity of West Africans, is so embarrassing to the latter that one must resort to comparing Armstrong and Coltrane to Bach and Beethoven, Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison to Shakespeare and Goethe, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to Pericles and Cicero-- and on and on.... Brains like cue balls seem to work that way, though. That is why borderline-retarded Blacks have notably higher self-esteem than high-IQ White Europeans-- and naturally act out accordingly.

    As for the parenthetical claims about music, literature, oratory, etc., you must have a brain closer to a cue ball than a bocci ball to believe such rot! The roll call of White Europeans in those fields, when compared to the paucity of West Africans, is so embarrassing to the latter that one must resort to comparing Armstrong and Coltrane to Bach and Beethoven, Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison to Shakespeare and Goethe, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to Pericles and Cicero–

    How come everyone you mentioned on the Caucasoid side has been dead for 200 years?

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    I limited myself to three sets of comparisons. I will take John Irving over Maya Angelou, any day of the week. In fact, I would take Danielle Steel over Maya Angelou, any day of the week! I would take Bill Clinton, whom I despise, over Sharpton, Jackson, or any other Black race-hustler. I would take Paul McCartney, before his premature death in a car accident, over any current rapper. I could go on and on, but my iPad battery is about to die....
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  93. D. K. says:
    @Anonymous
    In the long term, mutation and genetic drift alone would make any future populations descended from contemporary white populations more different from contemporary white populations than contemporary white populations are from any other contemporary group.

    In the longer term, the Earth either will fall into an engorged Sun, while the latter runs out of its hydrogen, or instead be rendered a permanent chunk of charcoal, orbiting as the closest remaining planetary satellite. As a nun at my old grade school used to say: “. . . and it will be good riddance to bad rubbish!”

    Read More
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  94. Bliss says:
    @D. K.
    "Likewise, you race realists also know that people of west african ancestry are more athletic than europeans (and more gifted and creative in music, literature, oratory etc)."

    This is so laughable that you have to have a brain like a bocci ball to believe it! It is not even true of athletics, unless you limit athletics to a few of the prominent sports-- especially basketball and, to a lesser extent, football-- as well as to the sprinting and jumping events in track and field. In the wider range of competitive sports-- including the world's most popular sport, soccer-- Blacks of West African descent fall somewhere between mediocre and not-at-all-competitive. As a group, Whites are actualy stronger, and also have far better staying power, than West Africans-- not to mention Whites' obviously being far more intelligent than Blacks.

    As for the parenthetical claims about music, literature, oratory, etc., you must have a brain closer to a cue ball than a bocci ball to believe such rot! The roll call of White Europeans in those fields, when compared to the paucity of West Africans, is so embarrassing to the latter that one must resort to comparing Armstrong and Coltrane to Bach and Beethoven, Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison to Shakespeare and Goethe, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to Pericles and Cicero-- and on and on.... Brains like cue balls seem to work that way, though. That is why borderline-retarded Blacks have notably higher self-esteem than high-IQ White Europeans-- and naturally act out accordingly.

    It is not even true of athletics, unless you limit athletics to a few of the prominent sports– especially basketball and, to a lesser extent, football– as well as to the sprinting and jumping events in track and field.

    Another race “realist” who is hopelessly out of touch with reality. Educate your bocce ball ignoramus:

    Soccer: Pele (best ever). And numerous others.
    Golf: Tiger Woods (best or second best ever)
    Tennis: Serena Williams (best ever)
    Formula 1: Lewis Hamilton (World Champion)
    Boxing: black domination
    Basketball: black domination
    Football: black domination
    Running: black domination
    Body Building: black domination
    MMA: Anderson Silva (best ever). Jon Jones current best
    Judo: Teddy Riner (best ever)
    Baseball: Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Barry Bonds (top three ever)

    Bleacher Report’s top ten sportsmen of all time has 8 blacks including #1 and only one white (at #9). ESPN’s list has 3 blacks as the top 3. Btw, Michael Jordan tops both lists.

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    • Replies: @Truth
    Mr. Bliss appears to have come up with a pretty formidable list there, Sheepskin; what say you?
    , @D. K.
    The credibility of your list is evident from your claim that the German-American Babe Ruth is Black! As for our PC-addled, negrophilic, modern-day sportswriters, their opinions are barely worth noting.

    The claim that Pele is the best soccer player is dubious, but the overall complexion of world soccer is obvious. What West African soccer powerhouse can you name? An Argentinian of Italian ethnicity is the greatest player in the world today-- and perhaps the greatest ever.

    Blacks dominate in boxing? Who is the current world-heavyweight champion? Which ethnicity dominates the lighter weights? The Black heyday in boxing has come and gone, just like the Jewish heyday in basketball.

    Tiger Woods is one-quarter Black, one-quarter Thai, one-quarter Chinese, one-eighth Indian, and one-eighth Dutch. Regardless, he is just one golfer. Golf is dominated by Whites, as it always has been.

    The notion that Sabrina Williams is the greatest tennis player ever is almost as laughable as your claim that Babe Ruth was Black! Tennis is dominated by Whites, as it always has been.

    Race-car driving, of whatever variety, is dominated by Whites, as it always has been.

    Horse-racing is now dominated by Hispanics, because of their smaller size. Whites are still prominent, while Blacks are rare.

    Middle-distance runs are dominated by Whites; longer distances are dominated by a particular Kenyan tribe-- not by West Africans, who have no stamina in running!

    Weight-lifting is dominated by Whites-- as are discus, javelin, shot put, pentathlon, decathlon, triathlon, pole vaulting, wrestling, swimming, hockey, skiing, archery, biking, rock climbing, mountaineering, BMX, cross-training, luge, ski-jumping, cricket, Australian-rules football, rugby, and on and on.

    While Blacks are now dominant in football, Whites are dominant at its most-important position, quarterback, and almost all kickers, of whatever variety, are White.

    As for baseball, the greatest all-around players have been predominantly White. (Barry Bonds was a juicer, and no one would be talking about his being one of the greatest players ever, if he had not started juicing, after the 1997 season, any more than anyone would know who Sammy Sosa or Jose Conseco are, if they had not been perennial juicers! Almost all Dominican players, Black or Brown, are juicers.) Most of the greatest pitchers, even since 1947, have been White.

    West African-descended Blacks' greatest dominance is in basketball, along with sprints and long jumping in track & field.

    Overall, Whites dominate sports, except in the few that happen to be most popular, at present, in the United States: football, baseball (where American Blacks are lagging, but many Black Hispanics, a lot of them juicers from the Dominican Republic, are prominent, along with Hispanic mestizos and American Whites), and basketball.
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  95. Truth says:
    @Bliss

    It is not even true of athletics, unless you limit athletics to a few of the prominent sports– especially basketball and, to a lesser extent, football– as well as to the sprinting and jumping events in track and field.
     
    Another race "realist" who is hopelessly out of touch with reality. Educate your bocce ball ignoramus:

    Soccer: Pele (best ever). And numerous others.
    Golf: Tiger Woods (best or second best ever)
    Tennis: Serena Williams (best ever)
    Formula 1: Lewis Hamilton (World Champion)
    Boxing: black domination
    Basketball: black domination
    Football: black domination
    Running: black domination
    Body Building: black domination
    MMA: Anderson Silva (best ever). Jon Jones current best
    Judo: Teddy Riner (best ever)
    Baseball: Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Barry Bonds (top three ever)

    Bleacher Report's top ten sportsmen of all time has 8 blacks including #1 and only one white (at #9). ESPN's list has 3 blacks as the top 3. Btw, Michael Jordan tops both lists.

    Mr. Bliss appears to have come up with a pretty formidable list there, Sheepskin; what say you?

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    Read it [supra] and weep, Zippy!
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  96. FredAG says:

    Ha ha ha Fred. Yes you are very droll and I’m sure even Derb will laugh at some of your razor-sharp observations (/sarc off).

    Yes, Mexico is great but it’s recent greatness is entirely due to (1) Oil in the Gulf of Mexico and (2) NAFTA.

    One of these things occurred entirely at the expense of the US worker (hint -it’s not the hydrocarbons).

    One key point you overlooked: It’s not the Mexicans with PhD’s that we’re busy importing, it’s the millions of high-school drop-outs who gut the employment opportunities for poor Americans and provide a disenfranchised voter-client base for Democrats in perpetuum.

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  97. Bliss says:
    @D. K.
    "Likewise, you race realists also know that people of west african ancestry are more athletic than europeans (and more gifted and creative in music, literature, oratory etc)."

    This is so laughable that you have to have a brain like a bocci ball to believe it! It is not even true of athletics, unless you limit athletics to a few of the prominent sports-- especially basketball and, to a lesser extent, football-- as well as to the sprinting and jumping events in track and field. In the wider range of competitive sports-- including the world's most popular sport, soccer-- Blacks of West African descent fall somewhere between mediocre and not-at-all-competitive. As a group, Whites are actualy stronger, and also have far better staying power, than West Africans-- not to mention Whites' obviously being far more intelligent than Blacks.

    As for the parenthetical claims about music, literature, oratory, etc., you must have a brain closer to a cue ball than a bocci ball to believe such rot! The roll call of White Europeans in those fields, when compared to the paucity of West Africans, is so embarrassing to the latter that one must resort to comparing Armstrong and Coltrane to Bach and Beethoven, Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison to Shakespeare and Goethe, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to Pericles and Cicero-- and on and on.... Brains like cue balls seem to work that way, though. That is why borderline-retarded Blacks have notably higher self-esteem than high-IQ White Europeans-- and naturally act out accordingly.

    one must resort to comparing Armstrong and Coltrane to Bach and Beethoven, Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison to Shakespeare and Goethe

    I am glad you mentioned Beethoven, since he is a good example of the brazenly dishonest whitewashing of history:

    http://www.mdcbowen.org/p2/sf/faq068.htm

    Frederick Hertz, German anthropologist, in “Race and Civilization,” refers twice to Beethoven’s “Negroid traits” and his “dark” skin, and “flat, thick nose.” (pp. 123 and 178).

    Frau Fischer, an intimate acquaintance of Beethoven, describes him thus, “Short, stocky, broad shoulders, short neck, round nose, blackish-brown complexion.” (From r. H. Schauffler, The Man Who Freed Music, Vol. I, p. 18, 1929).

    Alexander W. Thayer, perhaps the foremost authority on Beethoven, says, “Beethoven had even more of the Moor in his features than his master, ‘Haydn.’” (Beethoven, Vol. I, p. 146).

    Paul Bekker, another very noted authority on Beethoven, says that “the most faithful picture of Beethoven’s head” shows him with “wide, thick lipped mouth, short, thick nose, and proudly arched forehead.” (Beethoven, p. 41, 1925. trans. Bozman). Thayer adds that Beethoven was an ugly little man, and no one would be more astonished than the great composer should he return and see how he has been idealized by sculptors and painters.

    Beethoven’s family originated in Belgium, which had been ruled for centuries by the Spaniards, who had large numbers of Negro soldiers in their army there. Theophile Gautier speaks of a Belgian type characterized by brown skin and dark hair “a second race which the soldiers of the Spanish Duke of Alva have sown between Brussels and Cambrai.”

    In short, the general description of Beethoven, even to his frizzly hair, fits that of many an Aframerican or West Indian mulatto. In the Southern States Beethoven would have been forced to ride in the jim-crow car.

    See also: Rogers, J.A., “Sex and Race,” Vol. I, pp. 288, 289,302 (1941) for other data on Beethoven’s Negro strain, one of which is from the new York Times. Also p. 8 for portrait of Beethoven drawn from life by Hofel, which clearly shows the Negro strain. For more extended proof as well as a picture of Beethoven’s life-mask see Sex and Race, Vol. 3, pp. 306-309.

    You should also educate yourself about Pushkin (the greatest literary figure of Russia), Antarah bin Shaddad (the greatest poet cum warrior of the arabs), Machado de Assis (the greatest writer in portuguese), Alexandre Dumas (the most popular writer in french) etc. All of them had african ancestry.

    Btw, I have made the case elsewhere on Unz.com that Shakespeare too could have been mixed race like Pushkin who was his russian equivalent.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Pushkin was 1/8 African - and his African ancestor was an Ethiopian (people from this region are genetically about 20% Semitic). That doesn't make him black by any means, it just means his hair is a little curlier and his skin maybe a little darker than that of people who are 100% European rather than merely 87.5% European like Pushkin.

    If Beethoven had African ancestry is was probably even slighter than Pushkin's.

    , @D. K.
    Did I compare your brain to a cue ball? My mistake! The more apt comparison would be to the 8 ball. The Black brain will believe any Afrocentric nonsense that comes down the pike.
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  98. D. K. says:
    @Bliss

    It is not even true of athletics, unless you limit athletics to a few of the prominent sports– especially basketball and, to a lesser extent, football– as well as to the sprinting and jumping events in track and field.
     
    Another race "realist" who is hopelessly out of touch with reality. Educate your bocce ball ignoramus:

    Soccer: Pele (best ever). And numerous others.
    Golf: Tiger Woods (best or second best ever)
    Tennis: Serena Williams (best ever)
    Formula 1: Lewis Hamilton (World Champion)
    Boxing: black domination
    Basketball: black domination
    Football: black domination
    Running: black domination
    Body Building: black domination
    MMA: Anderson Silva (best ever). Jon Jones current best
    Judo: Teddy Riner (best ever)
    Baseball: Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Barry Bonds (top three ever)

    Bleacher Report's top ten sportsmen of all time has 8 blacks including #1 and only one white (at #9). ESPN's list has 3 blacks as the top 3. Btw, Michael Jordan tops both lists.

    The credibility of your list is evident from your claim that the German-American Babe Ruth is Black! As for our PC-addled, negrophilic, modern-day sportswriters, their opinions are barely worth noting.

    The claim that Pele is the best soccer player is dubious, but the overall complexion of world soccer is obvious. What West African soccer powerhouse can you name? An Argentinian of Italian ethnicity is the greatest player in the world today– and perhaps the greatest ever.

    Blacks dominate in boxing? Who is the current world-heavyweight champion? Which ethnicity dominates the lighter weights? The Black heyday in boxing has come and gone, just like the Jewish heyday in basketball.

    Tiger Woods is one-quarter Black, one-quarter Thai, one-quarter Chinese, one-eighth Indian, and one-eighth Dutch. Regardless, he is just one golfer. Golf is dominated by Whites, as it always has been.

    The notion that Sabrina Williams is the greatest tennis player ever is almost as laughable as your claim that Babe Ruth was Black! Tennis is dominated by Whites, as it always has been.

    Race-car driving, of whatever variety, is dominated by Whites, as it always has been.

    Horse-racing is now dominated by Hispanics, because of their smaller size. Whites are still prominent, while Blacks are rare.

    Middle-distance runs are dominated by Whites; longer distances are dominated by a particular Kenyan tribe– not by West Africans, who have no stamina in running!

    Weight-lifting is dominated by Whites– as are discus, javelin, shot put, pentathlon, decathlon, triathlon, pole vaulting, wrestling, swimming, hockey, skiing, archery, biking, rock climbing, mountaineering, BMX, cross-training, luge, ski-jumping, cricket, Australian-rules football, rugby, and on and on.

    While Blacks are now dominant in football, Whites are dominant at its most-important position, quarterback, and almost all kickers, of whatever variety, are White.

    As for baseball, the greatest all-around players have been predominantly White. (Barry Bonds was a juicer, and no one would be talking about his being one of the greatest players ever, if he had not started juicing, after the 1997 season, any more than anyone would know who Sammy Sosa or Jose Conseco are, if they had not been perennial juicers! Almost all Dominican players, Black or Brown, are juicers.) Most of the greatest pitchers, even since 1947, have been White.

    West African-descended Blacks’ greatest dominance is in basketball, along with sprints and long jumping in track & field.

    Overall, Whites dominate sports, except in the few that happen to be most popular, at present, in the United States: football, baseball (where American Blacks are lagging, but many Black Hispanics, a lot of them juicers from the Dominican Republic, are prominent, along with Hispanic mestizos and American Whites), and basketball.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bliss

    The credibility of your list is evident from your claim that the German-American Babe Ruth is Black!
     
    When did full-blooded germans look like this:

    http://life-famous.com/celebrities/babe-ruth/babe-ruth-08.jpg

    Babe Ruth was obviously mixed race. Tens of millions of "white" americans are.

    As for our PC-addled, negrophilic, modern-day sportswriters, their opinions are barely worth noting.
     
    Anyone with half a brain would trust the judgement of the sports experts at ESPN and Bleacher Report over that of ignorant and irrational racist fools such as yourself.

    Blacks dominate in boxing?
     
    See what I mean? Typically dumb WN.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest110

    The boxing experts at ESPN, like anyone with a clue, see blacks dominating the all-time list. Their top 3 of all time are all blacks. Do you see a white involved in the upcoming fight of the century?
    , @Bliss

    Regardless, he is just one golfer. Golf is dominated by Whites, as it always has been..
     
    Firstly, women's golf aka LPGA is dominated by asian women (mostly korean). Secondly, domination does not mean fielding the great majority of players/competitors. The overwhelming majority of male golfers may be white but the greatest golfer of all time is black (take Jack Nicklaus's word for it). Almost all the drivers in Formula 1 are white but the World Champion is black. The great majority of women tennis players are white but the greatest player ever is black.

    Middle-distance runs are dominated by Whites;
     
    Another stupid lie. Of the 18 world record holders in middle-distance running only 5 are white (all women):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-distance_running


    As for baseball, the greatest all-around players have been predominantly White.
     
    The majority of baseball players may be white but the top 3 players of all time, and 4 of the top 5 are black:

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/feature/video/_/id/8652210/espn-hall-100-ranking-all-greatest-mlb-players


    While Blacks are now dominant in football, Whites are dominant at its most-important position, quarterback, and almost all kickers, of whatever variety, are White.
     
    White domination of the quarterback position is doomed. The writing is on the wall. Black quarterbacks led their teams to the last 3 Superbowls. And in college football black quarterbacks dominate. There were no white quarterbacks in the last two college championships. That's whats coming to the NFL. Neither of the two top quarterbacks (both Heisman Trophy winners) in this years NFL draft is white.

    And the best kicker in college football is hispanic...

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  99. D. K. says:
    @Truth

    As for the parenthetical claims about music, literature, oratory, etc., you must have a brain closer to a cue ball than a bocci ball to believe such rot! The roll call of White Europeans in those fields, when compared to the paucity of West Africans, is so embarrassing to the latter that one must resort to comparing Armstrong and Coltrane to Bach and Beethoven, Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison to Shakespeare and Goethe, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton to Pericles and Cicero–
     
    How come everyone you mentioned on the Caucasoid side has been dead for 200 years?

    I limited myself to three sets of comparisons. I will take John Irving over Maya Angelou, any day of the week. In fact, I would take Danielle Steel over Maya Angelou, any day of the week! I would take Bill Clinton, whom I despise, over Sharpton, Jackson, or any other Black race-hustler. I would take Paul McCartney, before his premature death in a car accident, over any current rapper. I could go on and on, but my iPad battery is about to die….

    Read More
    • Replies: @Realist
    "I would take Paul McCartney, before his premature death in a car accident, over any current rapper."

    Paul McCartney is dead???
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  100. expat says:

    I will throw in my $ 0.02 worth here:

    I am also an American, living in Mexico, married to a Mexican, etc. and my impression is the same as Fred’s: There is not a dime’s worth of difference between the average middle-class Mexican and the average middle-class American.

    But, having said that, the problem of course is the the illegals flooding into the USA are not ‘average middle-class’ Mexicans, they are mostly Mexico’s lower-class losers … not to mention Guatemala’s losers, Honduras’ losers, El Salvador’s losers, etc. ad nauseum.

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  101. Tom_R says:

    IF MEXICO IS SO GOOD, FRED, WHY ARE THE MEXICANS INVADING USA?

    And John Derbyshire is right in most ways.

    Bad article this time, Fred.

    But you did not mention the one most important reason Mexicans are better than Americans–their politicians have more sense and ethics and do not let aliens in into their country, like the stupid greedy American politicians do.

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  102. WJ says:
    @Ronald Thomas West
    Nice stuff Fred, you'd make a decent satirist with a bit of effort. Here's a dig you missed thought when stating:

    "He is certainly less American than those Mexican-Americans whose famiies have been in the US since 1848"

    You could have added that this was a case of the border migrating, not the Mexicans.

    Insofar as multiculturalism being a failure, I couldn't agree more; and John Derbyshire (that names right out of Robin Hood, right?) is solid 'basil-ganglia' conservative evidence of why:

    http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/10/09/liberals/

    ^

    Mexican American families living in the US since 1848 are simply Americans/US citizens. What is the point in this statement? Are Italians Americans not also American citizens despite having been in the country for over one hundred years? It’s an absurd comparison.

    Millions of additional true Mexicans, and Hondurans and Salvadorans, etc. are not US citizens. They have no concept of the US culture and when they come in massive waves they have no interest or motivation to learn the culture. They will end this country.

    So we are supposed to commit national suicide because Fred Reed (and Jeb Bush) has a Mexican wife?

    Read More
    • Replies: @expat

    So we are supposed to commit national suicide because Fred Reed (and Jeb Bush) has a Mexican wife?
     
    That wasn't the main message that I got from the article. The message that I got was that the Latinization of the USA (at least in the Southwest) is a done-deal. It never should have happened, but it did happen, and we crossed the Rubicon 20 or 30 years ago.

    And now that it has happened -- if we don't want to commit national suicide -- we had better make darned sure that the up-coming Hispanic majority identifies with white middle-class values rather than black lower-class values.
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  103. Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factor"] says:

    All Mexicans should be instructed to think and act like Katy Jurado.

    Read More
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  104. Realist says:
    @silviosilver
    Rubbish. Derbyshire is unquestionably convinced that Mexicans are significantly dumber than whites and the legally importing millions of them is an extremely unwise idea.

    The average IQ of Mexicans is significantly lower than the average white IQ.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    The average IQ of Mexicans is significantly lower than the average white IQ.
     
    Correct, but the cause is environmental rather than genetic. Mexicans are basically a mix of whites and Asians, two groups with normal IQs under normal conditions. Aspects of Mexican IQ (and Native American IQ) scores are low in the same pattern as those of pre-modern Europeans rather than those of blacks.

    This doesn't mean that the USA needs tens of millions of low IQ immigrants who will take generations to catch up. But let's be realistic about the situation.

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  105. Realist says:
    @Andy
    As Syon has written, this country was founded as an Anglo nation and had nothing but Northern European immigrants for its first 300+ years. And then after, it had nothing but European immigrants till 1965. So I'd say John Derbyshire fits in quite well.

    Our country would be much better off if the GOP had similar immigration views to what John has.

    I agree with most of what you said, but this country is not over 300 years old.

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  106. Tom says:

    Hey Fred, why not an article about how Mexico’s treats immigrants from south of their boarder? Really shows how “civilized” Mexicans are in comparison to us Americans.

    Read More
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  107. Realist says:
    @D. K.
    I limited myself to three sets of comparisons. I will take John Irving over Maya Angelou, any day of the week. In fact, I would take Danielle Steel over Maya Angelou, any day of the week! I would take Bill Clinton, whom I despise, over Sharpton, Jackson, or any other Black race-hustler. I would take Paul McCartney, before his premature death in a car accident, over any current rapper. I could go on and on, but my iPad battery is about to die....

    “I would take Paul McCartney, before his premature death in a car accident, over any current rapper.”

    Paul McCartney is dead???

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    Blimey, where have you been, mate? He killed himself in a car accident, in late '66 or early '67, and was secretly replaced, for some inscrutable reason, by American actor William Campbell-- the former husband of Judith Campbell Exner, the former mistress (after her divorce from Campbell) of both J.F.K. and Chicago mafia boss Sam Giancana. The Beatles planted clues throughout their post-touring-phase albums and singles, as in "Strawberry Fields Forever" (1967): "I burried Paul."
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  108. expat says:
    @WJ
    Mexican American families living in the US since 1848 are simply Americans/US citizens. What is the point in this statement? Are Italians Americans not also American citizens despite having been in the country for over one hundred years? It's an absurd comparison.

    Millions of additional true Mexicans, and Hondurans and Salvadorans, etc. are not US citizens. They have no concept of the US culture and when they come in massive waves they have no interest or motivation to learn the culture. They will end this country.

    So we are supposed to commit national suicide because Fred Reed (and Jeb Bush) has a Mexican wife?

    So we are supposed to commit national suicide because Fred Reed (and Jeb Bush) has a Mexican wife?

    That wasn’t the main message that I got from the article. The message that I got was that the Latinization of the USA (at least in the Southwest) is a done-deal. It never should have happened, but it did happen, and we crossed the Rubicon 20 or 30 years ago.

    And now that it has happened — if we don’t want to commit national suicide — we had better make darned sure that the up-coming Hispanic majority identifies with white middle-class values rather than black lower-class values.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    The message that I got was that the Latinization of the USA (at least in the Southwest) is a done-deal. It never should have happened, but it did happen, and we crossed the Rubicon 20 or 30 years ago.

    And now that it has happened — if we don’t want to commit national suicide — we had better make darned sure that the up-coming Hispanic majority identifies with white middle-class values rather than black lower-class values.
     
    Absolutely. Liberals are actively trying to turn these guys into "new blacks." Anti-Latino bigots are just playing along by their tune.
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  109. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @Jim
    Regarding violent crime - if one checks lists of the most violent cities in the world almost all of them are in Latin America or the Caribbean, many of them are in Mexico. Mexico seems an extraordinarily violent society to me as well as having one of the highest levels of corruption in the world.

    Nothing that I know of Mexican history suggest to me that the massive immigration of Mexicans into the US will have very negative consequences for Americans.

    Well, crime rate in LA collapsed when Mexicans replaced blacks as the largest minority.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    Crime has decreased everywhere in America over the last 30 years, Sherlock.

    http://time.com/3577026/crime-rates-drop-1970s/
    , @MarkinLA
    The real question is what would crime be in LA is we still had blacks in South Central LA instead of distributed all around LA (because they didn't just up and leave). We still had the massive prison build-up we did to have the room to lock up all black and white criminals instead of letting them out early like we do now. We didn't have all these Hispanics gangs committing crimes. We had police actually reporting all the crime that happens. We still had the situation we have today where property crime isn't worth the effort because nobody will give you anything for a stolen Harbor Freight skill-saw or a stolen car stereo. We still have the technology where cameras are everywhere. We still have the technology like time-lock safes so armed robbers don't get much. We still have the tax laws that made reporting property crime worth it. What do you get when somebody breaks into your garage and steals 600 dollars worth of tools today? Nothing since a loss has to be above a certain percentage of your income so why waste your time filing a report since your homeowners deductible is 1000 dollars.

    When you can actually compare apples to apples then we can determine if Mexican immigration has been helpful.
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  110. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @Bliss

    one must resort to comparing Armstrong and Coltrane to Bach and Beethoven, Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison to Shakespeare and Goethe
     
    I am glad you mentioned Beethoven, since he is a good example of the brazenly dishonest whitewashing of history:

    http://www.mdcbowen.org/p2/sf/faq068.htm

    Frederick Hertz, German anthropologist, in "Race and Civilization," refers twice to Beethoven's "Negroid traits" and his "dark" skin, and "flat, thick nose." (pp. 123 and 178).

    Frau Fischer, an intimate acquaintance of Beethoven, describes him thus, "Short, stocky, broad shoulders, short neck, round nose, blackish-brown complexion." (From r. H. Schauffler, The Man Who Freed Music, Vol. I, p. 18, 1929).

    Alexander W. Thayer, perhaps the foremost authority on Beethoven, says, "Beethoven had even more of the Moor in his features than his master, 'Haydn.'" (Beethoven, Vol. I, p. 146).

    Paul Bekker, another very noted authority on Beethoven, says that "the most faithful picture of Beethoven's head" shows him with "wide, thick lipped mouth, short, thick nose, and proudly arched forehead." (Beethoven, p. 41, 1925. trans. Bozman). Thayer adds that Beethoven was an ugly little man, and no one would be more astonished than the great composer should he return and see how he has been idealized by sculptors and painters.

    Beethoven's family originated in Belgium, which had been ruled for centuries by the Spaniards, who had large numbers of Negro soldiers in their army there. Theophile Gautier speaks of a Belgian type characterized by brown skin and dark hair "a second race which the soldiers of the Spanish Duke of Alva have sown between Brussels and Cambrai."

    In short, the general description of Beethoven, even to his frizzly hair, fits that of many an Aframerican or West Indian mulatto. In the Southern States Beethoven would have been forced to ride in the jim-crow car.

    See also: Rogers, J.A., "Sex and Race," Vol. I, pp. 288, 289,302 (1941) for other data on Beethoven's Negro strain, one of which is from the new York Times. Also p. 8 for portrait of Beethoven drawn from life by Hofel, which clearly shows the Negro strain. For more extended proof as well as a picture of Beethoven's life-mask see Sex and Race, Vol. 3, pp. 306-309.




    You should also educate yourself about Pushkin (the greatest literary figure of Russia), Antarah bin Shaddad (the greatest poet cum warrior of the arabs), Machado de Assis (the greatest writer in portuguese), Alexandre Dumas (the most popular writer in french) etc. All of them had african ancestry.

    Btw, I have made the case elsewhere on Unz.com that Shakespeare too could have been mixed race like Pushkin who was his russian equivalent.

    Pushkin was 1/8 African – and his African ancestor was an Ethiopian (people from this region are genetically about 20% Semitic). That doesn’t make him black by any means, it just means his hair is a little curlier and his skin maybe a little darker than that of people who are 100% European rather than merely 87.5% European like Pushkin.

    If Beethoven had African ancestry is was probably even slighter than Pushkin’s.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    If Beethoven had African ancestry is was probably even slighter than Pushkin’s.
     
    He didn't have any.

    The standard Beethoven was part Black thesis goes more or less like this:

    Beethoven is a case in point. Rogers' evidence for the composer's blackness, presented in the third volume of Sex and Race, is twofold: (1) Some of Beethoven's ancestors lived in Belgium; Belgium had long been controlled by Spain; Spain employed some full-blooded Negro troops and in addition had been overrun by the Moors in medieval times; the Moors, according to Rogers, were a hybrid of white and black African stock; ergo, over the span of 1,000 years, black ancestry could conceivably have been transmitted from Africa to Beethoven. (2) Beethoven had a darker complexion than was typical of northern Europeans of his day, and some referred to him as "the black Spaniard."
     
    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2598/was-ludwig-van-beethoven-of-african-ancestry

    That's it.The leaps in logic required to buy the theory are obvious.If you are curious, here's another piece on the matter:





    http://www.academia.edu/4074689/Black_Beethoven_and_the_Racial_Politics_of_Music_History
    , @Truth

    Pushkin was 1/8 African... That doesn’t make him black by any means
     
    Well now, that depends upon where you live.
    , @Bliss

    Pushkin was 1/8 African
     
    Actually he was 1/4 african. Which explains why his african ancestry was still visible on his face:

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/pushkingenealogy.html

    Pushkin's preoccupation with his African ancestry is all the more telling since Ibrahim Gannibal was his maternal great-grandfather. Furthermore, Nadja, his mother, was through her own mother, a descendant of the same Pushkin forbear from whom her husband Serge descended. This is genetically interesting since it explains why the poet, who is generally but mistakenly accepted as an octoroon, looks perceptibly blacker.
     

    If Beethoven had African ancestry is was probably even slighter than Pushkin’s
     
    Based on how people who eyeballed him in real life described his appearance it is likely that Beethoven had more than the 25% african that Pushkin was so proud of. Look at Beethoven's death mask:

    http://www.elistmania.com/images/articles/221/Medium/Ludwig_Van_Beethoven.jpg
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  111. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @expat

    So we are supposed to commit national suicide because Fred Reed (and Jeb Bush) has a Mexican wife?
     
    That wasn't the main message that I got from the article. The message that I got was that the Latinization of the USA (at least in the Southwest) is a done-deal. It never should have happened, but it did happen, and we crossed the Rubicon 20 or 30 years ago.

    And now that it has happened -- if we don't want to commit national suicide -- we had better make darned sure that the up-coming Hispanic majority identifies with white middle-class values rather than black lower-class values.

    The message that I got was that the Latinization of the USA (at least in the Southwest) is a done-deal. It never should have happened, but it did happen, and we crossed the Rubicon 20 or 30 years ago.

    And now that it has happened — if we don’t want to commit national suicide — we had better make darned sure that the up-coming Hispanic majority identifies with white middle-class values rather than black lower-class values.

    Absolutely. Liberals are actively trying to turn these guys into “new blacks.” Anti-Latino bigots are just playing along by their tune.

    Read More
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  112. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @Realist
    The average IQ of Mexicans is significantly lower than the average white IQ.

    The average IQ of Mexicans is significantly lower than the average white IQ.

    Correct, but the cause is environmental rather than genetic. Mexicans are basically a mix of whites and Asians, two groups with normal IQs under normal conditions. Aspects of Mexican IQ (and Native American IQ) scores are low in the same pattern as those of pre-modern Europeans rather than those of blacks.

    This doesn’t mean that the USA needs tens of millions of low IQ immigrants who will take generations to catch up. But let’s be realistic about the situation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Mexicans are basically a mix of whites and Asians,
     
    No, Mexicans are a mix of Amerind and European.Some key points to bear in mind:

    Best estimate yet of Hispanic-American IQ

    Everyone across the political spectrum admits that the white-black test score gap is a major social problem, but nobody is thinking about the white-Hispanic test score gap, even though we have much more influence through immigration policy over whether Hispanics will be a large or huge proportion of the American population in the future. Fortunately, the facts are available, but they take a lot of digging to uncover.

    Here’s the best estimate I’ve yet seen: A 2001 meta-analysis of 39 studies covering a total 5,696,519 individuals in America (aged 14 and above) came up with an overall difference of 0.72 standard deviations in g (the “general factor” in cognitive ability) between “Anglo” whites and Hispanics. The 95% confidence range of the studies ran from .60 to .88 standard deviations, so there’s not a huge amount of disagreement among the studies.

    One standard deviation equals 15 IQ points, so that’s a gap of 10.8 IQ points, or an IQ of 89 on the Lynn-Vanhanen scale where white Americans equal 100. That would imply the average Hispanic would fall at the 24th percentile of the white IQ distribution. This inequality gets worse at higher IQs Assuming a normal distribution, 4.8% of whites would fall above 125 IQ versus only 0.9% of Hispanics, which explains why Hispanics are given ethnic preferences in prestige college admissions.

    In contrast, 105 studies of 6,246,729 individuals found an overall white-black gap of 1.10 standard deviations, or 16.5 points. (I typically round this down to 1.0 standard deviation and 15 points). So, the white-Hispanic gap appears to be about 65% as large as the notoriously depressing white-black gap. (Warning: this 65% number does not come from a perfect apples to apples comparison because more studies are used in calculating the white-black difference than the white-Hispanic difference.)

    Source: Roth, P. L., Bevier, C. A., Bobko, P., Switzer III, F. S. & Tyler, P. (2001) ” Ethnic group differences in cognitive ability in employment and educational settings: a meta-analysis.” Personnel Psychology 54, 297–330.
     
    The essential part of the quoted material: "One standard deviation equals 15 IQ points, so that’s a gap of 10.8 IQ points, or an IQ of 89 on the Lynn-Vanhanen scale where white Americans equal 100."

    So, the Hispanic American mean IQ is 89.And this has profound policy implications:

    One standard deviation equals 15 IQ points, so that’s a gap of 10.8 IQ points, or an IQ of 89 on the Lynn-Vanhanen scale where white Americans equal 100. That would imply the average Hispanic would fall at the 24th percentile of the white IQ distribution. This inequality gets worse at higher IQs Assuming a normal distribution, 4.8% of whites would fall above 125 IQ versus only 0.9% of Hispanics, which explains why Hispanics are given ethnic preferences in prestige college admissions.
     
    As for Mexico:

    “Raven’s Standard Progressive Matrices test was administered to a representative sample of 920 white, Mestizo and Native Mexican Indian children aged 7–10 years in Mexico. The mean IQs in relation to a British mean of 100 obtained from the 1979 British standardization sample and adjusted for the estimated subsequent increase were: 98·0 for whites, 94·3 for Mestizos and 83·3 for Native Mexican Indians.”

    http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=266611
     
    Let’s compare this to the racial composition of Mexico:

    98.0: Mexican Whites
    94.3:Mexican Mestizos
    83.3: Mexican Amerinds

    According to the CIA FACTBOOK, Mexico’s racial breakdown is:mestizo (Amerindian-Spanish) 60%, Amerindian or predominantly Amerindian 30%, white 9%, other 1%

    Doesn't look good
    , @Realist
    "Correct, but the cause is environmental rather than genetic."

    Citation.

    "....normal IQs under normal conditions...."

    Gibberish.

    "But let’s be realistic about the situation."

    Indeed.
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  113. MarkinLA says:

    Well, crime rate in LA collapsed when Mexicans replaced blacks as the largest minority.

    This is ridiculous statement. The blacks didn’t just leave and were replaced by Mexicans. We added the Mexican street gangs who were for awhile killing each other and members of black street gangs. Try looking at the LA Times murder blog. Every other name is Hispanic. If anything crime went down for everybody or as was shown by the LAPD recently, the police started downgrading the crimes in their reports to make things seem less violent. The prison population in California has been massively expanded in the last 30 years.

    When I was a kid the police would come to your house to take a report on a property crime. Now they ask you if anybody was assaulted. If not, they tell you to come to the station and fill out a report if you need one for your insurance.

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  114. Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factor"] says:

    Too many Mexicans act either too passive or too aggressive.

    Passive Mexicans, though maybe good people, don’t stand up to bad stuff. So bad stuff continue.
    And aggressive Mexicans act too crazy like Mapache in THE WILD BUNCH.

    A world of sheep invites wolves. As too many Mexicans were passive tacoheads, too many nasty Mexicans took advantage.

    http://www.anyclip.com/movies/the-wild-bunch/angels-woman/info/

    Mexicans have a goodness that can be led by others but doesn’t know how to stand up on its own.

    It’s like MAGNIFICENT SEVEN. Good people but they rely on gringos to lead them.
    It’s like Mexicans who come to the US are good people but need gringos to hire them and tell them what to do.

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  115. syonredux says: • Website
    @AP
    Pushkin was 1/8 African - and his African ancestor was an Ethiopian (people from this region are genetically about 20% Semitic). That doesn't make him black by any means, it just means his hair is a little curlier and his skin maybe a little darker than that of people who are 100% European rather than merely 87.5% European like Pushkin.

    If Beethoven had African ancestry is was probably even slighter than Pushkin's.

    If Beethoven had African ancestry is was probably even slighter than Pushkin’s.

    He didn’t have any.

    The standard Beethoven was part Black thesis goes more or less like this:

    Beethoven is a case in point. Rogers’ evidence for the composer’s blackness, presented in the third volume of Sex and Race, is twofold: (1) Some of Beethoven’s ancestors lived in Belgium; Belgium had long been controlled by Spain; Spain employed some full-blooded Negro troops and in addition had been overrun by the Moors in medieval times; the Moors, according to Rogers, were a hybrid of white and black African stock; ergo, over the span of 1,000 years, black ancestry could conceivably have been transmitted from Africa to Beethoven. (2) Beethoven had a darker complexion than was typical of northern Europeans of his day, and some referred to him as “the black Spaniard.”

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2598/was-ludwig-van-beethoven-of-african-ancestry

    That’s it.The leaps in logic required to buy the theory are obvious.If you are curious, here’s another piece on the matter:

    http://www.academia.edu/4074689/Black_Beethoven_and_the_Racial_Politics_of_Music_History

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Thanks, this makes sense.
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  116. Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factor"] says:

    When you get ten gringos in a room, each gringo has something to say.

    When you get ten tacoheads in a room, each tacohead looks to other tacoheads to say something for the group.

    Without Brando to lead them, the tacoheads would be nothing.

    Read More
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  117. syonredux says: • Website
    @AP

    The average IQ of Mexicans is significantly lower than the average white IQ.
     
    Correct, but the cause is environmental rather than genetic. Mexicans are basically a mix of whites and Asians, two groups with normal IQs under normal conditions. Aspects of Mexican IQ (and Native American IQ) scores are low in the same pattern as those of pre-modern Europeans rather than those of blacks.

    This doesn't mean that the USA needs tens of millions of low IQ immigrants who will take generations to catch up. But let's be realistic about the situation.

    Mexicans are basically a mix of whites and Asians,

    No, Mexicans are a mix of Amerind and European.Some key points to bear in mind:

    Best estimate yet of Hispanic-American IQ

    Everyone across the political spectrum admits that the white-black test score gap is a major social problem, but nobody is thinking about the white-Hispanic test score gap, even though we have much more influence through immigration policy over whether Hispanics will be a large or huge proportion of the American population in the future. Fortunately, the facts are available, but they take a lot of digging to uncover.

    Here’s the best estimate I’ve yet seen: A 2001 meta-analysis of 39 studies covering a total 5,696,519 individuals in America (aged 14 and above) came up with an overall difference of 0.72 standard deviations in g (the “general factor” in cognitive ability) between “Anglo” whites and Hispanics. The 95% confidence range of the studies ran from .60 to .88 standard deviations, so there’s not a huge amount of disagreement among the studies.

    One standard deviation equals 15 IQ points, so that’s a gap of 10.8 IQ points, or an IQ of 89 on the Lynn-Vanhanen scale where white Americans equal 100. That would imply the average Hispanic would fall at the 24th percentile of the white IQ distribution. This inequality gets worse at higher IQs Assuming a normal distribution, 4.8% of whites would fall above 125 IQ versus only 0.9% of Hispanics, which explains why Hispanics are given ethnic preferences in prestige college admissions.

    In contrast, 105 studies of 6,246,729 individuals found an overall white-black gap of 1.10 standard deviations, or 16.5 points. (I typically round this down to 1.0 standard deviation and 15 points). So, the white-Hispanic gap appears to be about 65% as large as the notoriously depressing white-black gap. (Warning: this 65% number does not come from a perfect apples to apples comparison because more studies are used in calculating the white-black difference than the white-Hispanic difference.)

    Source: Roth, P. L., Bevier, C. A., Bobko, P., Switzer III, F. S. & Tyler, P. (2001) ” Ethnic group differences in cognitive ability in employment and educational settings: a meta-analysis.” Personnel Psychology 54, 297–330.

    The essential part of the quoted material: “One standard deviation equals 15 IQ points, so that’s a gap of 10.8 IQ points, or an IQ of 89 on the Lynn-Vanhanen scale where white Americans equal 100.”

    So, the Hispanic American mean IQ is 89.And this has profound policy implications:

    One standard deviation equals 15 IQ points, so that’s a gap of 10.8 IQ points, or an IQ of 89 on the Lynn-Vanhanen scale where white Americans equal 100. That would imply the average Hispanic would fall at the 24th percentile of the white IQ distribution. This inequality gets worse at higher IQs Assuming a normal distribution, 4.8% of whites would fall above 125 IQ versus only 0.9% of Hispanics, which explains why Hispanics are given ethnic preferences in prestige college admissions.

    As for Mexico:

    “Raven’s Standard Progressive Matrices test was administered to a representative sample of 920 white, Mestizo and Native Mexican Indian children aged 7–10 years in Mexico. The mean IQs in relation to a British mean of 100 obtained from the 1979 British standardization sample and adjusted for the estimated subsequent increase were: 98·0 for whites, 94·3 for Mestizos and 83·3 for Native Mexican Indians.”

    http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=266611

    Let’s compare this to the racial composition of Mexico:

    98.0: Mexican Whites
    94.3:Mexican Mestizos
    83.3: Mexican Amerinds

    According to the CIA FACTBOOK, Mexico’s racial breakdown is:mestizo (Amerindian-Spanish) 60%, Amerindian or predominantly Amerindian 30%, white 9%, other 1%

    Doesn’t look good

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    None of this contradicts what I wrote. If you read Jensen's work he concludes that although Mexican IQ is much lower than white IQ, the particular patterns are quite different from black IQ. He concludes that the difference is thus environmental, unlike with blacks (whose lower IQ according to Jensen is genetic in nature).

    Which, as I wrote, is logical - Mexicans are a combination of Native Americans (that is, Asians) and Europeans (primarily Spaniards, although with some Jewish mixture).
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  118. Truth says:
    @AP
    Well, crime rate in LA collapsed when Mexicans replaced blacks as the largest minority.

    Crime has decreased everywhere in America over the last 30 years, Sherlock.

    http://time.com/3577026/crime-rates-drop-1970s/

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux
    "Crime has decreased everywhere in America over the last 30 years,"

    But Blacks still commit a disproportionate share of homicides in the USA:

    According to the FBI SHR data, in 2011 there were 6,309 black homicide victims in the United States. The homicide rate among black victims in the United States was 17.51 per 100,000. For that year, the overall national homicide rate was 4.44
    For whites, the national homicide rate was 2.64 per 100,000.
     
    http://www.vpc.org/studies/blackhomicide14.pdf
    , @tn-87
    White crime has decreased. Black violent crime has gone way up, black property crime goes untabulated. You're a glib liar.
    , @silviosilver

    Crime has decreased everywhere in America over the last 30 years, Sherlock.
     
    But black crimes remain vastly greater than any other groups. That's just one reason - but not the only - why the presence of large numbers of blacks has a devastating impact on non-black communities.
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  119. syonredux says: • Website
    @Truth
    Crime has decreased everywhere in America over the last 30 years, Sherlock.

    http://time.com/3577026/crime-rates-drop-1970s/

    “Crime has decreased everywhere in America over the last 30 years,”

    But Blacks still commit a disproportionate share of homicides in the USA:

    According to the FBI SHR data, in 2011 there were 6,309 black homicide victims in the United States. The homicide rate among black victims in the United States was 17.51 per 100,000. For that year, the overall national homicide rate was 4.44
    For whites, the national homicide rate was 2.64 per 100,000.

    http://www.vpc.org/studies/blackhomicide14.pdf

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth

    “Crime has decreased everywhere in America over the last 30 years,”

    But Blacks still commit a disproportionate share of homicides in the USA:

     

    A disproportionate, smaller, share of a smaller total, that's what "decreased" means.
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  120. Bill P says:

    I don’t have a problem with Mexicans as people (most of them seem decent enough), but as someone who has needed blue collar work at several points in his life, I am furious about illegal immigration. It’s a huge rip-off for the average American. I wonder whether my kids will be able to get decent summer jobs in construction like I did a mere twenty years ago, or whether they’ll be passed over in favor of our brand new imported Hispanic laboring class.

    In fact, I’m starting to wonder when Mexican Americans will finally say enough is enough, because the same thing will happen to them with the next wave of illegals.

    Read More
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  121. Who you gonna believe, Fred Reed or your lying eyes?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Flemur
    Fred's just mad cuz Derbyshire kicked his ass more than once when Fred couldn't understand Darwinian evolution and had to resort to (non-chicken) superstition; perhaps it's too complicated for Mexicans.

    Anyway, I'm quite happy with my Mexican digital camera.

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  122. Realist says:
    @AP

    The average IQ of Mexicans is significantly lower than the average white IQ.
     
    Correct, but the cause is environmental rather than genetic. Mexicans are basically a mix of whites and Asians, two groups with normal IQs under normal conditions. Aspects of Mexican IQ (and Native American IQ) scores are low in the same pattern as those of pre-modern Europeans rather than those of blacks.

    This doesn't mean that the USA needs tens of millions of low IQ immigrants who will take generations to catch up. But let's be realistic about the situation.

    “Correct, but the cause is environmental rather than genetic.”

    Citation.

    “….normal IQs under normal conditions….”

    Gibberish.

    “But let’s be realistic about the situation.”

    Indeed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    About Mexican-White IQ differences:

    “Correct, but the cause is environmental rather than genetic.”

    Citation.
     
    Didn't have time to link to the original paper, but results are discussed here:

    http://humanvarieties.org/2013/09/21/jensen-effect-on-racial-iq-differences-and-gpa-controlling-for-ses-in-the-nlsy79-and-nlsy97/

    I also provide data of racial gaps for both ASVAB-1981 and ASVAB-1999 for G-scores and nonG-scores, with and without controlling for parental SES. One particular feature is the BH gap, or black-hispanic gap. In both datasets, the gap increases after SES partialled out. We note the same thing happening at the subtest level, where the BH gap widens for all subtests when SES effect is removed. With regard to the widening black-hispanic gap when controlling for parental SES, the likely reason for this outcome is that hispanic parental education averages 1 or 2 years less than blacks, and their family income was about the same. At the same time, while controlling for SES reduces very little the black-white difference, it reduces the hispanic-white difference drastically. This could be compared with Jensen’s (1973, pp. 306-311) earlier analysis in which he compares blacks, whites and mexicans on PPVT (a caricature of culture loaded or biased test) and Raven (measuring essentially relation eduction, the purest form of Spearman’s g) scores. When equating for Raven, the mexicans scored below the blacks and blacks below the whites on PPVT. At the same time, when equating for PPVT score, blacks scored below whites, and hispanics scored very lightly above whites on Raven. Jensen interpreted this finding as to say that the mexican-white IQ difference was entirely due to socio-economic and/or cultural factors while the black-white IQ difference was due to a mix of genetic and environmental differences. The fact that hispanics were more ‘culturally’ deprived than blacks while scoring higher in cognitive tests is exactly what I was able to find in both NLSY79 and NLSY97. This is all the more interesting since g*d correlations between blacks and whites were not affected by SES but when it comes to hispanics (against either blacks or whites), SES may make a difference.
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  123. Flemur says:
    @Sparkling Wiggle
    Who you gonna believe, Fred Reed or your lying eyes?

    Fred’s just mad cuz Derbyshire kicked his ass more than once when Fred couldn’t understand Darwinian evolution and had to resort to (non-chicken) superstition; perhaps it’s too complicated for Mexicans.

    Anyway, I’m quite happy with my Mexican digital camera.

    Read More
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  124. vinteuil says: • Website

    Fred Reed either (1) has no effing idea what he’s talking about, or (2) is deliberately lying.

    For at least the last five years, I’ve read just about everything that Derbyshire has written (well, the free stuff, anyway) – and FR’s characterization of JD’s views simply bears no relationship to reality.

    Why can’t Fred Reed, in the course of a rather lengthy attack on an internet colleague, offer at least ONE actual quotation, or ONE actual link, in support of his characterization of John Derbyshire’s views?

    Read More
    • Replies: @vinteuil
    Suggested answer: because he can't.
    , @Anonymous
    Fred is just being provocative in this particular article. He can't be that stupid.
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  125. Ivy says:

    Who doesn’t like a nice, juicy taco?

    Read More
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  126. D. K. says:
    @Truth
    Mr. Bliss appears to have come up with a pretty formidable list there, Sheepskin; what say you?

    Read it [supra] and weep, Zippy!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth

    Read it [supra] and weep, Zippy!
     
    I didn't get it, Sheepskin. I don't know if a guy like you is built to make two attempts at humor within a calendar year. But thanks for trying.
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  127. D. K. says:
    @Realist
    "I would take Paul McCartney, before his premature death in a car accident, over any current rapper."

    Paul McCartney is dead???

    Blimey, where have you been, mate? He killed himself in a car accident, in late ’66 or early ’67, and was secretly replaced, for some inscrutable reason, by American actor William Campbell– the former husband of Judith Campbell Exner, the former mistress (after her divorce from Campbell) of both J.F.K. and Chicago mafia boss Sam Giancana. The Beatles planted clues throughout their post-touring-phase albums and singles, as in “Strawberry Fields Forever” (1967): “I burried Paul.”

    Read More
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  128. tn-87 says:
    @Truth
    Crime has decreased everywhere in America over the last 30 years, Sherlock.

    http://time.com/3577026/crime-rates-drop-1970s/

    White crime has decreased. Black violent crime has gone way up, black property crime goes untabulated. You’re a glib liar.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    Please come up with a citation that says that black violent crime has "gone way up." I'll wait.
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  129. D. K. says:
    @Bliss

    one must resort to comparing Armstrong and Coltrane to Bach and Beethoven, Maya Angelou and Toni Morrison to Shakespeare and Goethe
     
    I am glad you mentioned Beethoven, since he is a good example of the brazenly dishonest whitewashing of history:

    http://www.mdcbowen.org/p2/sf/faq068.htm

    Frederick Hertz, German anthropologist, in "Race and Civilization," refers twice to Beethoven's "Negroid traits" and his "dark" skin, and "flat, thick nose." (pp. 123 and 178).

    Frau Fischer, an intimate acquaintance of Beethoven, describes him thus, "Short, stocky, broad shoulders, short neck, round nose, blackish-brown complexion." (From r. H. Schauffler, The Man Who Freed Music, Vol. I, p. 18, 1929).

    Alexander W. Thayer, perhaps the foremost authority on Beethoven, says, "Beethoven had even more of the Moor in his features than his master, 'Haydn.'" (Beethoven, Vol. I, p. 146).

    Paul Bekker, another very noted authority on Beethoven, says that "the most faithful picture of Beethoven's head" shows him with "wide, thick lipped mouth, short, thick nose, and proudly arched forehead." (Beethoven, p. 41, 1925. trans. Bozman). Thayer adds that Beethoven was an ugly little man, and no one would be more astonished than the great composer should he return and see how he has been idealized by sculptors and painters.

    Beethoven's family originated in Belgium, which had been ruled for centuries by the Spaniards, who had large numbers of Negro soldiers in their army there. Theophile Gautier speaks of a Belgian type characterized by brown skin and dark hair "a second race which the soldiers of the Spanish Duke of Alva have sown between Brussels and Cambrai."

    In short, the general description of Beethoven, even to his frizzly hair, fits that of many an Aframerican or West Indian mulatto. In the Southern States Beethoven would have been forced to ride in the jim-crow car.

    See also: Rogers, J.A., "Sex and Race," Vol. I, pp. 288, 289,302 (1941) for other data on Beethoven's Negro strain, one of which is from the new York Times. Also p. 8 for portrait of Beethoven drawn from life by Hofel, which clearly shows the Negro strain. For more extended proof as well as a picture of Beethoven's life-mask see Sex and Race, Vol. 3, pp. 306-309.




    You should also educate yourself about Pushkin (the greatest literary figure of Russia), Antarah bin Shaddad (the greatest poet cum warrior of the arabs), Machado de Assis (the greatest writer in portuguese), Alexandre Dumas (the most popular writer in french) etc. All of them had african ancestry.

    Btw, I have made the case elsewhere on Unz.com that Shakespeare too could have been mixed race like Pushkin who was his russian equivalent.

    Did I compare your brain to a cue ball? My mistake! The more apt comparison would be to the 8 ball. The Black brain will believe any Afrocentric nonsense that comes down the pike.

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  130. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @syonredux

    Mexicans are basically a mix of whites and Asians,
     
    No, Mexicans are a mix of Amerind and European.Some key points to bear in mind:

    Best estimate yet of Hispanic-American IQ

    Everyone across the political spectrum admits that the white-black test score gap is a major social problem, but nobody is thinking about the white-Hispanic test score gap, even though we have much more influence through immigration policy over whether Hispanics will be a large or huge proportion of the American population in the future. Fortunately, the facts are available, but they take a lot of digging to uncover.

    Here’s the best estimate I’ve yet seen: A 2001 meta-analysis of 39 studies covering a total 5,696,519 individuals in America (aged 14 and above) came up with an overall difference of 0.72 standard deviations in g (the “general factor” in cognitive ability) between “Anglo” whites and Hispanics. The 95% confidence range of the studies ran from .60 to .88 standard deviations, so there’s not a huge amount of disagreement among the studies.

    One standard deviation equals 15 IQ points, so that’s a gap of 10.8 IQ points, or an IQ of 89 on the Lynn-Vanhanen scale where white Americans equal 100. That would imply the average Hispanic would fall at the 24th percentile of the white IQ distribution. This inequality gets worse at higher IQs Assuming a normal distribution, 4.8% of whites would fall above 125 IQ versus only 0.9% of Hispanics, which explains why Hispanics are given ethnic preferences in prestige college admissions.

    In contrast, 105 studies of 6,246,729 individuals found an overall white-black gap of 1.10 standard deviations, or 16.5 points. (I typically round this down to 1.0 standard deviation and 15 points). So, the white-Hispanic gap appears to be about 65% as large as the notoriously depressing white-black gap. (Warning: this 65% number does not come from a perfect apples to apples comparison because more studies are used in calculating the white-black difference than the white-Hispanic difference.)

    Source: Roth, P. L., Bevier, C. A., Bobko, P., Switzer III, F. S. & Tyler, P. (2001) ” Ethnic group differences in cognitive ability in employment and educational settings: a meta-analysis.” Personnel Psychology 54, 297–330.
     
    The essential part of the quoted material: "One standard deviation equals 15 IQ points, so that’s a gap of 10.8 IQ points, or an IQ of 89 on the Lynn-Vanhanen scale where white Americans equal 100."

    So, the Hispanic American mean IQ is 89.And this has profound policy implications:

    One standard deviation equals 15 IQ points, so that’s a gap of 10.8 IQ points, or an IQ of 89 on the Lynn-Vanhanen scale where white Americans equal 100. That would imply the average Hispanic would fall at the 24th percentile of the white IQ distribution. This inequality gets worse at higher IQs Assuming a normal distribution, 4.8% of whites would fall above 125 IQ versus only 0.9% of Hispanics, which explains why Hispanics are given ethnic preferences in prestige college admissions.
     
    As for Mexico:

    “Raven’s Standard Progressive Matrices test was administered to a representative sample of 920 white, Mestizo and Native Mexican Indian children aged 7–10 years in Mexico. The mean IQs in relation to a British mean of 100 obtained from the 1979 British standardization sample and adjusted for the estimated subsequent increase were: 98·0 for whites, 94·3 for Mestizos and 83·3 for Native Mexican Indians.”

    http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=266611
     
    Let’s compare this to the racial composition of Mexico:

    98.0: Mexican Whites
    94.3:Mexican Mestizos
    83.3: Mexican Amerinds

    According to the CIA FACTBOOK, Mexico’s racial breakdown is:mestizo (Amerindian-Spanish) 60%, Amerindian or predominantly Amerindian 30%, white 9%, other 1%

    Doesn't look good

    None of this contradicts what I wrote. If you read Jensen’s work he concludes that although Mexican IQ is much lower than white IQ, the particular patterns are quite different from black IQ. He concludes that the difference is thus environmental, unlike with blacks (whose lower IQ according to Jensen is genetic in nature).

    Which, as I wrote, is logical – Mexicans are a combination of Native Americans (that is, Asians) and Europeans (primarily Spaniards, although with some Jewish mixture).

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    The ancestors of pre-Columbian American Indians left Northeast Asia many thousands of years to go. To act as if, when Columbus arrived in the New World, they were close genetic relatives of the Chinese, Japanese and Koreans of that Age of Discovery is ridiculous. They had the IQ distribution that they had within the civilizations that they themselves had created, over the course of those many thousands of years during which they had spread themselves throughout the previously uninhabited Western Hemisphere.
    , @syonredux

    Which, as I wrote, is logical – Mexicans are a combination of Native Americans (that is, Asians)
     
    No, that is Amerind.Conflating Amerind with East Asian is sloppy thinking.

    and Europeans (primarily Spaniards, although with some Jewish mixture).
     
    Sephardic Jewish, not Ashkenazic

    None of this contradicts what I wrote. If you read Jensen’s work he concludes that although Mexican IQ is much lower than white IQ, the particular patterns are quite different from black IQ. He concludes that the difference is thus environmental, unlike with blacks (whose lower IQ according to Jensen is genetic in nature).
     
    Yes, I've heard people (Ron Unz, for one) invoke Jensen as some kind of mystical talisman where Amerind IQ is concerned:" All we have to do is provide the right environment, and, hey!presto! Super-Flynn will give them mean IQs of 100."

    I find that kind of reasoning quite problematic.For one thing, as I noted, we can clearly see a racial gradient in IQ in Mexico:

    98.0: Mexican Whites
    94.3:Mexican Mestizos
    83.3: Mexican Amerinds

    That looks more like a genetic effect than an environmental effect to me....
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  131. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @Realist
    "Correct, but the cause is environmental rather than genetic."

    Citation.

    "....normal IQs under normal conditions...."

    Gibberish.

    "But let’s be realistic about the situation."

    Indeed.

    About Mexican-White IQ differences:

    “Correct, but the cause is environmental rather than genetic.”

    Citation.

    Didn’t have time to link to the original paper, but results are discussed here:

    http://humanvarieties.org/2013/09/21/jensen-effect-on-racial-iq-differences-and-gpa-controlling-for-ses-in-the-nlsy79-and-nlsy97/

    I also provide data of racial gaps for both ASVAB-1981 and ASVAB-1999 for G-scores and nonG-scores, with and without controlling for parental SES. One particular feature is the BH gap, or black-hispanic gap. In both datasets, the gap increases after SES partialled out. We note the same thing happening at the subtest level, where the BH gap widens for all subtests when SES effect is removed. With regard to the widening black-hispanic gap when controlling for parental SES, the likely reason for this outcome is that hispanic parental education averages 1 or 2 years less than blacks, and their family income was about the same. At the same time, while controlling for SES reduces very little the black-white difference, it reduces the hispanic-white difference drastically. This could be compared with Jensen’s (1973, pp. 306-311) earlier analysis in which he compares blacks, whites and mexicans on PPVT (a caricature of culture loaded or biased test) and Raven (measuring essentially relation eduction, the purest form of Spearman’s g) scores. When equating for Raven, the mexicans scored below the blacks and blacks below the whites on PPVT. At the same time, when equating for PPVT score, blacks scored below whites, and hispanics scored very lightly above whites on Raven. Jensen interpreted this finding as to say that the mexican-white IQ difference was entirely due to socio-economic and/or cultural factors while the black-white IQ difference was due to a mix of genetic and environmental differences. The fact that hispanics were more ‘culturally’ deprived than blacks while scoring higher in cognitive tests is exactly what I was able to find in both NLSY79 and NLSY97. This is all the more interesting since g*d correlations between blacks and whites were not affected by SES but when it comes to hispanics (against either blacks or whites), SES may make a difference.

    Read More
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  132. D. K. says:
    @AP
    None of this contradicts what I wrote. If you read Jensen's work he concludes that although Mexican IQ is much lower than white IQ, the particular patterns are quite different from black IQ. He concludes that the difference is thus environmental, unlike with blacks (whose lower IQ according to Jensen is genetic in nature).

    Which, as I wrote, is logical - Mexicans are a combination of Native Americans (that is, Asians) and Europeans (primarily Spaniards, although with some Jewish mixture).

    The ancestors of pre-Columbian American Indians left Northeast Asia many thousands of years to go. To act as if, when Columbus arrived in the New World, they were close genetic relatives of the Chinese, Japanese and Koreans of that Age of Discovery is ridiculous. They had the IQ distribution that they had within the civilizations that they themselves had created, over the course of those many thousands of years during which they had spread themselves throughout the previously uninhabited Western Hemisphere.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    The Native Americans are related more to Siberian natives than to Koreans, Japanese, etc. They also have some Caucasian admixture - specifically, descended from people whose Eurasian counterparts are found in Armenia (up to 18% among the Iroquois, down to 1% in South America).

    AFAIK no northern/eastern Asians have dramatically lower IQs then whites; why would those who ended up in North America be any different?

    As for civilization they created - I suspect old worlders simply had a thousands-year head start in terms of settlement.
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  133. vinteuil says: • Website
    @vinteuil
    Fred Reed either (1) has no effing idea what he's talking about, or (2) is deliberately lying.

    For at least the last five years, I've read just about everything that Derbyshire has written (well, the free stuff, anyway) - and FR's characterization of JD's views simply bears no relationship to reality.

    Why can't Fred Reed, in the course of a rather lengthy attack on an internet colleague, offer at least ONE actual quotation, or ONE actual link, in support of his characterization of John Derbyshire's views?

    Suggested answer: because he can’t.

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  134. MarkinLA says:
    @AP
    Well, crime rate in LA collapsed when Mexicans replaced blacks as the largest minority.

    The real question is what would crime be in LA is we still had blacks in South Central LA instead of distributed all around LA (because they didn’t just up and leave). We still had the massive prison build-up we did to have the room to lock up all black and white criminals instead of letting them out early like we do now. We didn’t have all these Hispanics gangs committing crimes. We had police actually reporting all the crime that happens. We still had the situation we have today where property crime isn’t worth the effort because nobody will give you anything for a stolen Harbor Freight skill-saw or a stolen car stereo. We still have the technology where cameras are everywhere. We still have the technology like time-lock safes so armed robbers don’t get much. We still have the tax laws that made reporting property crime worth it. What do you get when somebody breaks into your garage and steals 600 dollars worth of tools today? Nothing since a loss has to be above a certain percentage of your income so why waste your time filing a report since your homeowners deductible is 1000 dollars.

    When you can actually compare apples to apples then we can determine if Mexican immigration has been helpful.

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  135. Anonymous • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @vinteuil
    Fred Reed either (1) has no effing idea what he's talking about, or (2) is deliberately lying.

    For at least the last five years, I've read just about everything that Derbyshire has written (well, the free stuff, anyway) - and FR's characterization of JD's views simply bears no relationship to reality.

    Why can't Fred Reed, in the course of a rather lengthy attack on an internet colleague, offer at least ONE actual quotation, or ONE actual link, in support of his characterization of John Derbyshire's views?

    Fred is just being provocative in this particular article. He can’t be that stupid.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Realist
    "He can’t be that stupid."

    Sure he can.
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  136. Realist says:
    @Anonymous
    Fred is just being provocative in this particular article. He can't be that stupid.

    “He can’t be that stupid.”

    Sure he can.

    Read More
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  137. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @D. K.
    The ancestors of pre-Columbian American Indians left Northeast Asia many thousands of years to go. To act as if, when Columbus arrived in the New World, they were close genetic relatives of the Chinese, Japanese and Koreans of that Age of Discovery is ridiculous. They had the IQ distribution that they had within the civilizations that they themselves had created, over the course of those many thousands of years during which they had spread themselves throughout the previously uninhabited Western Hemisphere.

    The Native Americans are related more to Siberian natives than to Koreans, Japanese, etc. They also have some Caucasian admixture – specifically, descended from people whose Eurasian counterparts are found in Armenia (up to 18% among the Iroquois, down to 1% in South America).

    AFAIK no northern/eastern Asians have dramatically lower IQs then whites; why would those who ended up in North America be any different?

    As for civilization they created – I suspect old worlders simply had a thousands-year head start in terms of settlement.

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    There is no reason to believe that Asians in the north, east, and/or northeast portions of that super-size continent were as intelligent, ten or fifteen thousand years ago, as they are today. If the Amerindians were more intelligent than contemporary White Europeans, when the former settled in the New World, than they would have built much more impressive and robust civilizations, which would have survived, for instance, the arrival of Hernan Cortez and a few hundred of his Conquistadores, operating thousands of miles from their home port! More to the point, their Amerindian descendants, today, would not score what they do on modern IQ tests, any more than South Koreans and Chinese did, back before their respective economic explosions.
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  138. @Anonymous
    In the long term, mutation and genetic drift alone would make any future populations descended from contemporary white populations more different from contemporary white populations than contemporary white populations are from any other contemporary group.

    In the long term, mutation and genetic drift alone would make any future populations descended from contemporary white populations more different from contemporary white populations than contemporary white populations are from any other contemporary group.

    That would be an “organic” kind of change, though, which I have a feeling would be more beneficial that race-replacement by third world riff-raff. And besides, ten or twenty thousand years is a long time. But thanks for your “concern” (heh).

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  139. @Truth
    Crime has decreased everywhere in America over the last 30 years, Sherlock.

    http://time.com/3577026/crime-rates-drop-1970s/

    Crime has decreased everywhere in America over the last 30 years, Sherlock.

    But black crimes remain vastly greater than any other groups. That’s just one reason – but not the only – why the presence of large numbers of blacks has a devastating impact on non-black communities.

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    • Replies: @Truth
    For a few thousand years, Europeans declared war on each other every 20 years. Things change.

    But the original subject was that the crime rate declined in Los Angeles because the "Mexicans took over for the blacks."

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  140. syonredux says: • Website
    @AP
    None of this contradicts what I wrote. If you read Jensen's work he concludes that although Mexican IQ is much lower than white IQ, the particular patterns are quite different from black IQ. He concludes that the difference is thus environmental, unlike with blacks (whose lower IQ according to Jensen is genetic in nature).

    Which, as I wrote, is logical - Mexicans are a combination of Native Americans (that is, Asians) and Europeans (primarily Spaniards, although with some Jewish mixture).

    Which, as I wrote, is logical – Mexicans are a combination of Native Americans (that is, Asians)

    No, that is Amerind.Conflating Amerind with East Asian is sloppy thinking.

    and Europeans (primarily Spaniards, although with some Jewish mixture).

    Sephardic Jewish, not Ashkenazic

    None of this contradicts what I wrote. If you read Jensen’s work he concludes that although Mexican IQ is much lower than white IQ, the particular patterns are quite different from black IQ. He concludes that the difference is thus environmental, unlike with blacks (whose lower IQ according to Jensen is genetic in nature).

    Yes, I’ve heard people (Ron Unz, for one) invoke Jensen as some kind of mystical talisman where Amerind IQ is concerned:” All we have to do is provide the right environment, and, hey!presto! Super-Flynn will give them mean IQs of 100.”

    I find that kind of reasoning quite problematic.For one thing, as I noted, we can clearly see a racial gradient in IQ in Mexico:

    98.0: Mexican Whites
    94.3:Mexican Mestizos
    83.3: Mexican Amerinds

    That looks more like a genetic effect than an environmental effect to me….

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    • Replies: @AP

    Conflating Amerind with East Asian is sloppy thinking.
     
    Why? Amerinds are a combination of Asians (of Siberian origin) and Caucasians (nearest relatives, Armenians and Greeks) with the % of the latter ancestry varying from up to 18% among the northeastern North American tribes to 1% in South America. These groups left the Old World about 15,000 years ago.

    AFAIK no Asian population is known to have dramatically lower "genetic" IQ in comparison to whites. Have you seen studies suggesting otherwise? So why would Amerinds be different?

    Yes, I’ve heard people (Ron Unz, for one) invoke Jensen as some kind of mystical talisman where Amerind IQ is concerned:” All we have to do is provide the right environment, and, hey!presto! Super-Flynn will give them mean IQs of 100.”
     
    No magic, science. Or are you one of those people that doesn't believe in IQ tests?

    98.0: Mexican Whites
    94.3:Mexican Mestizos
    83.3: Mexican Amerinds

    That looks more like a genetic effect than an environmental effect to me
     
    You don't think Mexican whites, mestizos and Amerinds live in dramatically different environments?
    , @Ron Unz
    Hmmm...

    You cite a Richard Lynn paper from 2004 reporting that Mexican Mestizos had IQ=94.3 and Mexican Amerinds were at IQ=83.3. But in a 2010 paper, he also reported that Sicilians currently had IQ=89, almost exactly half-way between those two non-white Mexican populations.

    Since such a large fraction of Italian-Americans came from Sicily, doesn't that make you wonder whether Lynn's numbers might either be unreliable or that they might not have a strong non-genetic component? Or do you really believe that Sicilian-Americans today average IQ=89?...

    You claim to be a junior faculty member in English Lit while Arthur Jensen is one of the towering psychometricians of the 20th century. Don't you think you might be better off focusing on Shakespearean sonnets rather than disputing such highly quantitative and technical topics? Then again, you might really just be a teenager in Bangalore simply pulling our legs...
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  141. D. K. says:
    @AP
    The Native Americans are related more to Siberian natives than to Koreans, Japanese, etc. They also have some Caucasian admixture - specifically, descended from people whose Eurasian counterparts are found in Armenia (up to 18% among the Iroquois, down to 1% in South America).

    AFAIK no northern/eastern Asians have dramatically lower IQs then whites; why would those who ended up in North America be any different?

    As for civilization they created - I suspect old worlders simply had a thousands-year head start in terms of settlement.

    There is no reason to believe that Asians in the north, east, and/or northeast portions of that super-size continent were as intelligent, ten or fifteen thousand years ago, as they are today. If the Amerindians were more intelligent than contemporary White Europeans, when the former settled in the New World, than they would have built much more impressive and robust civilizations, which would have survived, for instance, the arrival of Hernan Cortez and a few hundred of his Conquistadores, operating thousands of miles from their home port! More to the point, their Amerindian descendants, today, would not score what they do on modern IQ tests, any more than South Koreans and Chinese did, back before their respective economic explosions.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    There is no reason to believe that Asians in the north, east, and/or northeast portions of that super-size continent were as intelligent, ten or fifteen thousand years ago, as they are today.
     
    Sure. Or Europeans, for that matter. The question is whether this has been a genetic difference.

    If the Amerindians were more intelligent than contemporary White Europeans, when the former settled in the New World, than they would have built much more impressive and robust civilizations, which would have survived, for instance, the arrival of Hernan Cortez and a few hundred of his Conquistadores, operating thousands of miles from their home port!
     
    Old Worlders had a thousands of years head start. There were also many more of them, which enabled cross-transfer of technological innovation. In contrast it took much longer for the sparse, scattered New World populations to establish population density in a warm climate suitable for agriculture sufficient for the beginning of a civilization.

    If northern Europeans such as Germans, described by Romans and Greeks as almost apelike savages, had never encountered the Roman or middle eastern worlds, do you think they'd have been much more civilized than Amerinds by 1500? Sure they had iron, but this seems to have come to them from the middle east.
    , @Truth

    There is no reason to believe that Asians in the north, east, and/or northeast portions of that super-size continent were as intelligent, ten or fifteen thousand years ago, as they are today.
     
    Why yes there is, it's called "The Flynn Effect.", and it states that 100 years ago, your average white man had roughly the same IQ as your average Nigerian tribesman today.
    , @IBC

    If the Amerindians were more intelligent than contemporary White Europeans, when the former settled in the New World, than they would have built much more impressive and robust civilizations, which would have survived, for instance, the arrival of Hernan Cortez and a few hundred of his Conquistadores, operating thousands of miles from their home port!
     
    Although La Conquista was certainly an amazing feat, if you read Bernal Díaz or even Cortez's own letters, it's clear that the expedition would have failed without the help of indigenous allies. And actually it was launched from nearby Cuba where Cortez had been living for several years.

    Food is the major legacy of pre-Hispanic Meso-America. Maize, chocolate, vanilla, many types of beans, chile peppers, some dyes, tomatoes, squashes and pumpkins, tobacco, and turkeys were all developed or first utilized by Amerindians living in the region and are now important commodities in most (corn) or many (chiles) parts of the world today.

    However, your point about historical IQs or IQ differences not necessarily being the same as contemporary ones is a good one though. Since a huge percentage of the indigenous population died in the first few decades after the Conquest (primarily due to new diseases, but also do to continuing unrest, dislocation, and substantial enslavement), the pre-Hispanic gene pool would have been subject to substantial pressure which might have affected the frequencies of genes associated with other traits beyond resistance to smallpox or measles. A lack of solid demographic data would probably make this impossible to study though. I do know that initially the Spanish themselves often married the high-status daughters of local leaders and government officials, so higher ranking Amerindian men may have faced exclusion from marriage in many cases, although one of Moctezuma's sons was able to marry and his own son then went on to live in Spain, marry a Spanish woman, and even to receive a Spanish royal title!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Moctezuma_de_Tultengo
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  142. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @syonredux

    Which, as I wrote, is logical – Mexicans are a combination of Native Americans (that is, Asians)
     
    No, that is Amerind.Conflating Amerind with East Asian is sloppy thinking.

    and Europeans (primarily Spaniards, although with some Jewish mixture).
     
    Sephardic Jewish, not Ashkenazic

    None of this contradicts what I wrote. If you read Jensen’s work he concludes that although Mexican IQ is much lower than white IQ, the particular patterns are quite different from black IQ. He concludes that the difference is thus environmental, unlike with blacks (whose lower IQ according to Jensen is genetic in nature).
     
    Yes, I've heard people (Ron Unz, for one) invoke Jensen as some kind of mystical talisman where Amerind IQ is concerned:" All we have to do is provide the right environment, and, hey!presto! Super-Flynn will give them mean IQs of 100."

    I find that kind of reasoning quite problematic.For one thing, as I noted, we can clearly see a racial gradient in IQ in Mexico:

    98.0: Mexican Whites
    94.3:Mexican Mestizos
    83.3: Mexican Amerinds

    That looks more like a genetic effect than an environmental effect to me....

    Conflating Amerind with East Asian is sloppy thinking.

    Why? Amerinds are a combination of Asians (of Siberian origin) and Caucasians (nearest relatives, Armenians and Greeks) with the % of the latter ancestry varying from up to 18% among the northeastern North American tribes to 1% in South America. These groups left the Old World about 15,000 years ago.

    AFAIK no Asian population is known to have dramatically lower “genetic” IQ in comparison to whites. Have you seen studies suggesting otherwise? So why would Amerinds be different?

    Yes, I’ve heard people (Ron Unz, for one) invoke Jensen as some kind of mystical talisman where Amerind IQ is concerned:” All we have to do is provide the right environment, and, hey!presto! Super-Flynn will give them mean IQs of 100.”

    No magic, science. Or are you one of those people that doesn’t believe in IQ tests?

    98.0: Mexican Whites
    94.3:Mexican Mestizos
    83.3: Mexican Amerinds

    That looks more like a genetic effect than an environmental effect to me

    You don’t think Mexican whites, mestizos and Amerinds live in dramatically different environments?

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Why? Amerinds are a combination of Asians (of Siberian origin) and Caucasians (nearest relatives, Armenians and Greeks) with the % of the latter ancestry varying from up to 18% among the northeastern North American tribes to 1% in South America. These groups left the Old World about 15,000 years ago.
     
    I'm sorry, but this is very sloppy thinking.Here's an article from Razib Khan that might help:

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/long-first-age-mankind/

    We are talking about ancestral populations.A lot of mixing and mutating has happened over the last 15,000 years....

    AFAIK no Asian population is known to have dramatically lower “genetic” IQ in comparison to whites. Have you seen studies suggesting otherwise? So why would Amerinds be different?
     
    Amerinds are not an "Asian population." They are a population that migrated out of Asia thousands of years ago.
    , @syonredux

    No magic, science. Or are you one of those people that doesn’t believe in IQ tests?
     
    I believe in IQ tests, dear fellow.I'm just far from certain that Jensen (GOM that he was) was correct in this instance.Arguments from authority have no place in science.

    You don’t think Mexican whites, mestizos and Amerinds live in dramatically different environments?
     
    Different environments, sure.I'm not quite so certain that Mexican Euros and Mestizos dwell in "dramatically" dichotomous circumstances, though.Of course, the best way to gain insight into the role of environment vs genes in IQ would be to do gene studies on Mestizo siblings. Racial admixture can vary between siblings, and the difference in admixture is not always expressed via phenotype.Hence, if we saw differences in IQ scores between groups of siblings who showed different levels of Amerind admixture....

    Sadly, no one seems interested in doing that kind of study.I assume that they are frightened by what they might find out.
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  143. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @syonredux

    If Beethoven had African ancestry is was probably even slighter than Pushkin’s.
     
    He didn't have any.

    The standard Beethoven was part Black thesis goes more or less like this:

    Beethoven is a case in point. Rogers' evidence for the composer's blackness, presented in the third volume of Sex and Race, is twofold: (1) Some of Beethoven's ancestors lived in Belgium; Belgium had long been controlled by Spain; Spain employed some full-blooded Negro troops and in addition had been overrun by the Moors in medieval times; the Moors, according to Rogers, were a hybrid of white and black African stock; ergo, over the span of 1,000 years, black ancestry could conceivably have been transmitted from Africa to Beethoven. (2) Beethoven had a darker complexion than was typical of northern Europeans of his day, and some referred to him as "the black Spaniard."
     
    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2598/was-ludwig-van-beethoven-of-african-ancestry

    That's it.The leaps in logic required to buy the theory are obvious.If you are curious, here's another piece on the matter:





    http://www.academia.edu/4074689/Black_Beethoven_and_the_Racial_Politics_of_Music_History

    Thanks, this makes sense.

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  144. Ron Unz says:
    @syonredux

    Which, as I wrote, is logical – Mexicans are a combination of Native Americans (that is, Asians)
     
    No, that is Amerind.Conflating Amerind with East Asian is sloppy thinking.

    and Europeans (primarily Spaniards, although with some Jewish mixture).
     
    Sephardic Jewish, not Ashkenazic

    None of this contradicts what I wrote. If you read Jensen’s work he concludes that although Mexican IQ is much lower than white IQ, the particular patterns are quite different from black IQ. He concludes that the difference is thus environmental, unlike with blacks (whose lower IQ according to Jensen is genetic in nature).
     
    Yes, I've heard people (Ron Unz, for one) invoke Jensen as some kind of mystical talisman where Amerind IQ is concerned:" All we have to do is provide the right environment, and, hey!presto! Super-Flynn will give them mean IQs of 100."

    I find that kind of reasoning quite problematic.For one thing, as I noted, we can clearly see a racial gradient in IQ in Mexico:

    98.0: Mexican Whites
    94.3:Mexican Mestizos
    83.3: Mexican Amerinds

    That looks more like a genetic effect than an environmental effect to me....

    Hmmm…

    You cite a Richard Lynn paper from 2004 reporting that Mexican Mestizos had IQ=94.3 and Mexican Amerinds were at IQ=83.3. But in a 2010 paper, he also reported that Sicilians currently had IQ=89, almost exactly half-way between those two non-white Mexican populations.

    Since such a large fraction of Italian-Americans came from Sicily, doesn’t that make you wonder whether Lynn’s numbers might either be unreliable or that they might not have a strong non-genetic component? Or do you really believe that Sicilian-Americans today average IQ=89?…

    You claim to be a junior faculty member in English Lit while Arthur Jensen is one of the towering psychometricians of the 20th century. Don’t you think you might be better off focusing on Shakespearean sonnets rather than disputing such highly quantitative and technical topics? Then again, you might really just be a teenager in Bangalore simply pulling our legs…

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    • Replies: @Truth

    Or do you really believe that Sicilian-Americans today average IQ=89?…
     
    Well Ronnie, if a picture is worth a thousand words, this is comparable to that dissertation you wrote 30 years ago, which, I might add, is still being cited:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-QKqcYuj60
    , @syonredux

    You cite a Richard Lynn paper from 2004 reporting that Mexican Mestizos had IQ=94.3 and Mexican Amerinds were at IQ=83.3. But in a 2010 paper, he also reported that Sicilians currently had IQ=89, almost exactly half-way between those two non-white Mexican populations.

    Since such a large fraction of Italian-Americans came from Sicily, doesn’t that make you wonder whether Lynn’s numbers might either be unreliable or that they might not have a strong non-genetic component? Or do you really believe that Sicilian-Americans today average IQ=89?…
     
    Don't know, Ron. I've never seen a study on Sicilian-American IQ.For that matter, I've never seen a breakdown on what percentage of Italian-Americans are of Sicilian descent.And I've never seen a breakdown on what percentage of Italian-Americans are of wholly Italian descent. Those seem like fairly important things to know, Ron.

    And since you are so fond of personal anecdotes about how a huge number of the Hispanics that you have met claim New Mexican ancestry, all of the "Italian-Americans" that I knew growing up in CA were part something else.Indeed, two of my brothers are married to women who are part-Italian.One of them is half-Polish, while the other is half-Finnish.

    You claim to be a junior faculty member in English Lit while Arthur Jensen is one of the towering psychometricians of the 20th century.
     
    Yes, Ron, he was a great man in his field.On the other hand, we are talking about science, not religion.Hence, no man is infallible, not even Pope Arthur

    Don’t you think you might be better off focusing on Shakespearean sonnets rather than disputing such highly quantitative and technical topics?
     
    You mean that I should just meekly accept whatever Ron Unz has to say on how brilliant Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds are?

    Then again, you might really just be a teenager in Bangalore simply pulling our legs…
     
    MMMM, maybe I am a teenager in Bangalore....Or a Japanese girl in Tokyo....or a transvestite transwoman in Reykjavík.....Whatever makes you happy, Ron.
    , @syonredux
    And, of course, Sicilians aren't going to number 100 million+ in the USA in 2060.....but Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds are....
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  145. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @D. K.
    There is no reason to believe that Asians in the north, east, and/or northeast portions of that super-size continent were as intelligent, ten or fifteen thousand years ago, as they are today. If the Amerindians were more intelligent than contemporary White Europeans, when the former settled in the New World, than they would have built much more impressive and robust civilizations, which would have survived, for instance, the arrival of Hernan Cortez and a few hundred of his Conquistadores, operating thousands of miles from their home port! More to the point, their Amerindian descendants, today, would not score what they do on modern IQ tests, any more than South Koreans and Chinese did, back before their respective economic explosions.

    There is no reason to believe that Asians in the north, east, and/or northeast portions of that super-size continent were as intelligent, ten or fifteen thousand years ago, as they are today.

    Sure. Or Europeans, for that matter. The question is whether this has been a genetic difference.

    If the Amerindians were more intelligent than contemporary White Europeans, when the former settled in the New World, than they would have built much more impressive and robust civilizations, which would have survived, for instance, the arrival of Hernan Cortez and a few hundred of his Conquistadores, operating thousands of miles from their home port!

    Old Worlders had a thousands of years head start. There were also many more of them, which enabled cross-transfer of technological innovation. In contrast it took much longer for the sparse, scattered New World populations to establish population density in a warm climate suitable for agriculture sufficient for the beginning of a civilization.

    If northern Europeans such as Germans, described by Romans and Greeks as almost apelike savages, had never encountered the Roman or middle eastern worlds, do you think they’d have been much more civilized than Amerinds by 1500? Sure they had iron, but this seems to have come to them from the middle east.

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    I was not comparing the IQ results of contemporary Amerindians with IQ results of their distant forebears in Asia. I am assuming, as a matter of course, that ten to fifteen thousand years of evolution, in two different locales, under very different environmental selection pressures, in very different directions, caused the one to develop a decidedly higher IQ than those who left, and who wound up in quite-warmer climes, filled with wildlife that had not evolved to avoid them, and with no other humanoids to have to defend against.

    In other words, I am assuming that remaining Asians in the north, east, and/or northeast portions of that super-continent evolved markedly higher IQs, over the course of ten to fifteen thousand years of evolution, and that the new Europeans did likewise. The newly arrived Amerindians, on the other hand, moved south into a warmer and less challenging environment, in the New World, and thus their own innate intelligence did not evolve upwards, like that of those left behind in Asia-- just as those left behind in Africa, after the Out-of-Africa event, did not suffer the severe environmental pressures that drove up the innate intelligence of the Out-of-Africa expatriates who had arrived in Europe, and survived through the last Ice Age.

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  146. Truth says:
    @AP
    Pushkin was 1/8 African - and his African ancestor was an Ethiopian (people from this region are genetically about 20% Semitic). That doesn't make him black by any means, it just means his hair is a little curlier and his skin maybe a little darker than that of people who are 100% European rather than merely 87.5% European like Pushkin.

    If Beethoven had African ancestry is was probably even slighter than Pushkin's.

    Pushkin was 1/8 African… That doesn’t make him black by any means

    Well now, that depends upon where you live.

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    How about there, in liberated Kuwait, Zippy?
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  147. Truth says:
    @syonredux
    "Crime has decreased everywhere in America over the last 30 years,"

    But Blacks still commit a disproportionate share of homicides in the USA:

    According to the FBI SHR data, in 2011 there were 6,309 black homicide victims in the United States. The homicide rate among black victims in the United States was 17.51 per 100,000. For that year, the overall national homicide rate was 4.44
    For whites, the national homicide rate was 2.64 per 100,000.
     
    http://www.vpc.org/studies/blackhomicide14.pdf

    “Crime has decreased everywhere in America over the last 30 years,”

    But Blacks still commit a disproportionate share of homicides in the USA:

    A disproportionate, smaller, share of a smaller total, that’s what “decreased” means.

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  148. Truth says:
    @tn-87
    White crime has decreased. Black violent crime has gone way up, black property crime goes untabulated. You're a glib liar.

    Please come up with a citation that says that black violent crime has “gone way up.” I’ll wait.

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  149. Truth says:
    @D. K.
    Read it [supra] and weep, Zippy!

    Read it [supra] and weep, Zippy!

    I didn’t get it, Sheepskin. I don’t know if a guy like you is built to make two attempts at humor within a calendar year. But thanks for trying.

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  150. Truth says:
    @silviosilver

    Crime has decreased everywhere in America over the last 30 years, Sherlock.
     
    But black crimes remain vastly greater than any other groups. That's just one reason - but not the only - why the presence of large numbers of blacks has a devastating impact on non-black communities.

    For a few thousand years, Europeans declared war on each other every 20 years. Things change.

    But the original subject was that the crime rate declined in Los Angeles because the “Mexicans took over for the blacks.”

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  151. Truth says:
    @D. K.
    There is no reason to believe that Asians in the north, east, and/or northeast portions of that super-size continent were as intelligent, ten or fifteen thousand years ago, as they are today. If the Amerindians were more intelligent than contemporary White Europeans, when the former settled in the New World, than they would have built much more impressive and robust civilizations, which would have survived, for instance, the arrival of Hernan Cortez and a few hundred of his Conquistadores, operating thousands of miles from their home port! More to the point, their Amerindian descendants, today, would not score what they do on modern IQ tests, any more than South Koreans and Chinese did, back before their respective economic explosions.

    There is no reason to believe that Asians in the north, east, and/or northeast portions of that super-size continent were as intelligent, ten or fifteen thousand years ago, as they are today.

    Why yes there is, it’s called “The Flynn Effect.”, and it states that 100 years ago, your average white man had roughly the same IQ as your average Nigerian tribesman today.

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    I have no doubt that you believe that, Zippy. After all, that is why sub-Saharan Africa, today, is so vastly superior to Classical Greece and Rome, Renaissance Italy and England, and even early-Twentieth Century Europe, America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

    Seventy-five years ago, when my late father left rural Illinois, to enlist in the Coast Guard, as a 19-year-old, having grown up in poverty, in a very large family, in the midst of the Great Depression, which began when he was only eight, and which caused him to drop out of grade school, about four years later, to help his father tar roofs, after he had lost his regular job as a coal miner, the Coast Guard measured my father's IQ at 140. "That's nearly a genius!" the man told him.

    Now, in light of the Flynn Effect, Zippy, and especially in light of poverty's supposedly withering effect on brain development in children, what do you suppose the chances of that IQ score were, back when White Americans were barely smarter than the average Black Nigerian is, today?
    , @Marty
    "Average" white men fought in the civil war. Check out a random letter home to Wisconsin or Massachusetts by some 16 year old (easy enough to find), and tell me you think the writer's IQ is under 100.
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  152. D. K. says:
    @AP

    There is no reason to believe that Asians in the north, east, and/or northeast portions of that super-size continent were as intelligent, ten or fifteen thousand years ago, as they are today.
     
    Sure. Or Europeans, for that matter. The question is whether this has been a genetic difference.

    If the Amerindians were more intelligent than contemporary White Europeans, when the former settled in the New World, than they would have built much more impressive and robust civilizations, which would have survived, for instance, the arrival of Hernan Cortez and a few hundred of his Conquistadores, operating thousands of miles from their home port!
     
    Old Worlders had a thousands of years head start. There were also many more of them, which enabled cross-transfer of technological innovation. In contrast it took much longer for the sparse, scattered New World populations to establish population density in a warm climate suitable for agriculture sufficient for the beginning of a civilization.

    If northern Europeans such as Germans, described by Romans and Greeks as almost apelike savages, had never encountered the Roman or middle eastern worlds, do you think they'd have been much more civilized than Amerinds by 1500? Sure they had iron, but this seems to have come to them from the middle east.

    I was not comparing the IQ results of contemporary Amerindians with IQ results of their distant forebears in Asia. I am assuming, as a matter of course, that ten to fifteen thousand years of evolution, in two different locales, under very different environmental selection pressures, in very different directions, caused the one to develop a decidedly higher IQ than those who left, and who wound up in quite-warmer climes, filled with wildlife that had not evolved to avoid them, and with no other humanoids to have to defend against.

    In other words, I am assuming that remaining Asians in the north, east, and/or northeast portions of that super-continent evolved markedly higher IQs, over the course of ten to fifteen thousand years of evolution, and that the new Europeans did likewise. The newly arrived Amerindians, on the other hand, moved south into a warmer and less challenging environment, in the New World, and thus their own innate intelligence did not evolve upwards, like that of those left behind in Asia– just as those left behind in Africa, after the Out-of-Africa event, did not suffer the severe environmental pressures that drove up the innate intelligence of the Out-of-Africa expatriates who had arrived in Europe, and survived through the last Ice Age.

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    • Replies: @AP

    I am assuming, as a matter of course, that ten to fifteen thousand years of evolution, in two different locales, under very different environmental selection pressures, in very different directions, caused the one to develop a decidedly higher IQ than those who left, and who wound up in quite-warmer climes, filled with wildlife that had not evolved to avoid them, and with no other humanoids to have to defend against.
     
    North American climate is harsher than that of Europe, and the Fertile Crescent and Egypt aren't much different in terms of harshness than the Mexican plateau.

    Wildlife goes both ways. Natives had to make due with no easily domesticable animals such as pigs and cattle, or horses.

    As for fewer humanoids against whom to defend oneself - this also works both ways. Amerinds, in their isolation, also didn't have the advantage of gaining technologies from other peoples. Everything they created was done completely on their own. If the Egyptians, or Chinese, etc. were all alone in the world, and began their ascent a few thousand years later because they wandered much further to get to their settlement point, how advanced do you think they'd be by 1500? And if the Germanic barbarians had never encountered civilization to the south of them, from whom they learned iron-making, and later architecture etc., do you think they'd be much more advanced than north american Indians?

    Access doesn't necessarily indicate genetic intelligence. A modern African, thanks to contact with Europeans, is more likely to be literate than, say, was a European peasant for the middle ages. Does this mean anything in terms of intelligence based on genetics?

    On their own and in complete isolation, Amerinds created a written language, a sophisticated calendar, built pyramids and a road network, etc. Given the fact that they were thousands of years behind in terms of settlement-time in comparison to Old World civilizations, such achievements were comparable to those of their contemporaries (in terms of settlement-time) such as the old Sumerians.*

    Here's a"pop history" primer:

    http://www.history.com/topics/mayan-scientific-achievements

    Contrast Amerinds to the primitive runes and mounds of pre-(Roman) contact Germanics.

    * Note: I'm not particular a fan of the civilized Amerind culture. The Aztecs were simply evil, of course. But let's be realistic about them.
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  153. Truth says:
    @Ron Unz
    Hmmm...

    You cite a Richard Lynn paper from 2004 reporting that Mexican Mestizos had IQ=94.3 and Mexican Amerinds were at IQ=83.3. But in a 2010 paper, he also reported that Sicilians currently had IQ=89, almost exactly half-way between those two non-white Mexican populations.

    Since such a large fraction of Italian-Americans came from Sicily, doesn't that make you wonder whether Lynn's numbers might either be unreliable or that they might not have a strong non-genetic component? Or do you really believe that Sicilian-Americans today average IQ=89?...

    You claim to be a junior faculty member in English Lit while Arthur Jensen is one of the towering psychometricians of the 20th century. Don't you think you might be better off focusing on Shakespearean sonnets rather than disputing such highly quantitative and technical topics? Then again, you might really just be a teenager in Bangalore simply pulling our legs...

    Or do you really believe that Sicilian-Americans today average IQ=89?…

    Well Ronnie, if a picture is worth a thousand words, this is comparable to that dissertation you wrote 30 years ago, which, I might add, is still being cited:

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  154. D. K. says:
    @Truth

    Pushkin was 1/8 African... That doesn’t make him black by any means
     
    Well now, that depends upon where you live.

    How about there, in liberated Kuwait, Zippy?

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  155. Ken Smith says: • Website

    There seems to be the assumption in these comments that all Mexicans are alike, clones of one another. Fred is a good friend and neighbor here in central Mexico. Fred is traveling somewhere and when he returns I want to discuss with him an interesting article I’ve read.

    Recent studies show that Mexicans have a stunning amount of genetic diversity. Imagine if people from Kansas and California were as genetically distinct from each other as someone from Germany is from someone from Japan. That’s the kind of remarkable genetic variation that scientists have now found within Mexico, thanks to the first fine-scale study of human genetic variation in that country.

    This refers only to the indigenous population. Most folks north of the border are unaware that ten million Mexicans are European — not mixed, but fully European. I’ve met third generation Mexicans of German, Italian and French ancestors, many of whom still speak their ancestral language in the home. Also, there are a half-million Arab descendants in Mexico (Carlos Slim being one). The current Mexican interior minister has Chinese ancestors. During Spanish rule, there were more Africans than Spaniards in Mexico. In short, Mexicans are not what many foreigners imagine.

    Back to the indigenous folks. I highly recommend reading this article from Science magazine:

    “People from Mexico show stunning amount of genetic diversity”

    http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2014/06/people-mexico-show-stunning-amount-genetic-diversity

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  156. Technomad says:

    I notice that Mexico has no sense of humor about illegal immigration to Mexico.

    And I have a theory that one reason that illegal immigration is winked at here in the US (at least by those whom we stupidly trust to protect us and enforce our laws; Children of the Corn we may well be, but We the People are still theoretically sovereign) is because the Powers that Be are afraid of a repeat of the meltdown Mexico had between 1910 and 1927. Without the safety valve of illegal immigration, Mexico could turn into a giant Spanish-speaking Somalia, with five or six factions shooting at each other, and people like Fred either running for the border or standing up against the nearest wall to be shot for being yanqui imperialistos.

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  157. Bliss says:
    @AP
    Pushkin was 1/8 African - and his African ancestor was an Ethiopian (people from this region are genetically about 20% Semitic). That doesn't make him black by any means, it just means his hair is a little curlier and his skin maybe a little darker than that of people who are 100% European rather than merely 87.5% European like Pushkin.

    If Beethoven had African ancestry is was probably even slighter than Pushkin's.

    Pushkin was 1/8 African

    Actually he was 1/4 african. Which explains why his african ancestry was still visible on his face:

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/pushkingenealogy.html

    Pushkin’s preoccupation with his African ancestry is all the more telling since Ibrahim Gannibal was his maternal great-grandfather. Furthermore, Nadja, his mother, was through her own mother, a descendant of the same Pushkin forbear from whom her husband Serge descended. This is genetically interesting since it explains why the poet, who is generally but mistakenly accepted as an octoroon, looks perceptibly blacker.

    If Beethoven had African ancestry is was probably even slighter than Pushkin’s

    Based on how people who eyeballed him in real life described his appearance it is likely that Beethoven had more than the 25% african that Pushkin was so proud of. Look at Beethoven’s death mask:

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    • Replies: @AP

    Nadja, his mother, was through her own mother, a descendant of the same Pushkin forbear from whom her husband Serge descended
     
    .

    Sure, but her husband Serge had no African ancestry. The fact that one of Nadja's non-African, Russian ancestors was related to one of her husband's non-African, Russian ancestors doesn't make her more African.

    Frontline screwed up. Pushkin was indeed only 1/8 African.
    , @AP
    Look at Napoleon's death mask. Perhaps he, too, was African?

    http://www.librarycompany.org/artifacts/images/masks/Mask_Napoleon.jpg
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  158. syonredux says: • Website
    @Ron Unz
    Hmmm...

    You cite a Richard Lynn paper from 2004 reporting that Mexican Mestizos had IQ=94.3 and Mexican Amerinds were at IQ=83.3. But in a 2010 paper, he also reported that Sicilians currently had IQ=89, almost exactly half-way between those two non-white Mexican populations.

    Since such a large fraction of Italian-Americans came from Sicily, doesn't that make you wonder whether Lynn's numbers might either be unreliable or that they might not have a strong non-genetic component? Or do you really believe that Sicilian-Americans today average IQ=89?...

    You claim to be a junior faculty member in English Lit while Arthur Jensen is one of the towering psychometricians of the 20th century. Don't you think you might be better off focusing on Shakespearean sonnets rather than disputing such highly quantitative and technical topics? Then again, you might really just be a teenager in Bangalore simply pulling our legs...

    You cite a Richard Lynn paper from 2004 reporting that Mexican Mestizos had IQ=94.3 and Mexican Amerinds were at IQ=83.3. But in a 2010 paper, he also reported that Sicilians currently had IQ=89, almost exactly half-way between those two non-white Mexican populations.

    Since such a large fraction of Italian-Americans came from Sicily, doesn’t that make you wonder whether Lynn’s numbers might either be unreliable or that they might not have a strong non-genetic component? Or do you really believe that Sicilian-Americans today average IQ=89?…

    Don’t know, Ron. I’ve never seen a study on Sicilian-American IQ.For that matter, I’ve never seen a breakdown on what percentage of Italian-Americans are of Sicilian descent.And I’ve never seen a breakdown on what percentage of Italian-Americans are of wholly Italian descent. Those seem like fairly important things to know, Ron.

    And since you are so fond of personal anecdotes about how a huge number of the Hispanics that you have met claim New Mexican ancestry, all of the “Italian-Americans” that I knew growing up in CA were part something else.Indeed, two of my brothers are married to women who are part-Italian.One of them is half-Polish, while the other is half-Finnish.

    You claim to be a junior faculty member in English Lit while Arthur Jensen is one of the towering psychometricians of the 20th century.

    Yes, Ron, he was a great man in his field.On the other hand, we are talking about science, not religion.Hence, no man is infallible, not even Pope Arthur

    Don’t you think you might be better off focusing on Shakespearean sonnets rather than disputing such highly quantitative and technical topics?

    You mean that I should just meekly accept whatever Ron Unz has to say on how brilliant Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds are?

    Then again, you might really just be a teenager in Bangalore simply pulling our legs…

    MMMM, maybe I am a teenager in Bangalore….Or a Japanese girl in Tokyo….or a transvestite transwoman in Reykjavík…..Whatever makes you happy, Ron.

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    • Replies: @Ron Unz

    I’ve never seen a study on Sicilian-American IQ.For that matter, I’ve never seen a breakdown on what percentage of Italian-Americans are of Sicilian descent.
     
    Well, Lynn's 2010 numbers for other Southern Italians aren't much higher at IQ=90-92, well below those of the Mexican Mestizos you're always complaining about. Lynn: "The only region in Italy where the IQ is as low as 89 is Sicily. In the other four regions of southern Italy the IQ lies between 90 and 92." And the absolutely overwhelming majority of Italian-Americans are from Southern Italy or Sicily. Here's a link to an Italian anthropology blogger summarizing and disputing Lynn's analysis:

    http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/10/richard-lynn-further-refuted.html

    Furthermore, a massive very solid early 1970s IQ study determined that Ireland's IQ was just 87, far below Mexican Mestizos and only a little above your pure Amerinds. Given all the negative things you often say about the Irish, I doubt you'll find this too surprising:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-revised/

    And since for geographical and religious reasons, the ethnic group most likely to intermarry with Italians were the Irish, wouldn't they have dragged down the poor Sicilians?

    Really, isn't it time for you to admit that assuming all of Lynn's silly IQ numbers represent purest genetic reality is more than a little doubtful? In exchange, I'll promise not to quote some random blogger that the Shakespeare's works were actually written by the Earl of Oxford or whomever.
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  159. syonredux says: • Website
    @AP

    Conflating Amerind with East Asian is sloppy thinking.
     
    Why? Amerinds are a combination of Asians (of Siberian origin) and Caucasians (nearest relatives, Armenians and Greeks) with the % of the latter ancestry varying from up to 18% among the northeastern North American tribes to 1% in South America. These groups left the Old World about 15,000 years ago.

    AFAIK no Asian population is known to have dramatically lower "genetic" IQ in comparison to whites. Have you seen studies suggesting otherwise? So why would Amerinds be different?

    Yes, I’ve heard people (Ron Unz, for one) invoke Jensen as some kind of mystical talisman where Amerind IQ is concerned:” All we have to do is provide the right environment, and, hey!presto! Super-Flynn will give them mean IQs of 100.”
     
    No magic, science. Or are you one of those people that doesn't believe in IQ tests?

    98.0: Mexican Whites
    94.3:Mexican Mestizos
    83.3: Mexican Amerinds

    That looks more like a genetic effect than an environmental effect to me
     
    You don't think Mexican whites, mestizos and Amerinds live in dramatically different environments?

    Why? Amerinds are a combination of Asians (of Siberian origin) and Caucasians (nearest relatives, Armenians and Greeks) with the % of the latter ancestry varying from up to 18% among the northeastern North American tribes to 1% in South America. These groups left the Old World about 15,000 years ago.

    I’m sorry, but this is very sloppy thinking.Here’s an article from Razib Khan that might help:

    http://www.unz.com/gnxp/long-first-age-mankind/

    We are talking about ancestral populations.A lot of mixing and mutating has happened over the last 15,000 years….

    AFAIK no Asian population is known to have dramatically lower “genetic” IQ in comparison to whites. Have you seen studies suggesting otherwise? So why would Amerinds be different?

    Amerinds are not an “Asian population.” They are a population that migrated out of Asia thousands of years ago.

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  160. Bliss says:
    @D. K.
    The credibility of your list is evident from your claim that the German-American Babe Ruth is Black! As for our PC-addled, negrophilic, modern-day sportswriters, their opinions are barely worth noting.

    The claim that Pele is the best soccer player is dubious, but the overall complexion of world soccer is obvious. What West African soccer powerhouse can you name? An Argentinian of Italian ethnicity is the greatest player in the world today-- and perhaps the greatest ever.

    Blacks dominate in boxing? Who is the current world-heavyweight champion? Which ethnicity dominates the lighter weights? The Black heyday in boxing has come and gone, just like the Jewish heyday in basketball.

    Tiger Woods is one-quarter Black, one-quarter Thai, one-quarter Chinese, one-eighth Indian, and one-eighth Dutch. Regardless, he is just one golfer. Golf is dominated by Whites, as it always has been.

    The notion that Sabrina Williams is the greatest tennis player ever is almost as laughable as your claim that Babe Ruth was Black! Tennis is dominated by Whites, as it always has been.

    Race-car driving, of whatever variety, is dominated by Whites, as it always has been.

    Horse-racing is now dominated by Hispanics, because of their smaller size. Whites are still prominent, while Blacks are rare.

    Middle-distance runs are dominated by Whites; longer distances are dominated by a particular Kenyan tribe-- not by West Africans, who have no stamina in running!

    Weight-lifting is dominated by Whites-- as are discus, javelin, shot put, pentathlon, decathlon, triathlon, pole vaulting, wrestling, swimming, hockey, skiing, archery, biking, rock climbing, mountaineering, BMX, cross-training, luge, ski-jumping, cricket, Australian-rules football, rugby, and on and on.

    While Blacks are now dominant in football, Whites are dominant at its most-important position, quarterback, and almost all kickers, of whatever variety, are White.

    As for baseball, the greatest all-around players have been predominantly White. (Barry Bonds was a juicer, and no one would be talking about his being one of the greatest players ever, if he had not started juicing, after the 1997 season, any more than anyone would know who Sammy Sosa or Jose Conseco are, if they had not been perennial juicers! Almost all Dominican players, Black or Brown, are juicers.) Most of the greatest pitchers, even since 1947, have been White.

    West African-descended Blacks' greatest dominance is in basketball, along with sprints and long jumping in track & field.

    Overall, Whites dominate sports, except in the few that happen to be most popular, at present, in the United States: football, baseball (where American Blacks are lagging, but many Black Hispanics, a lot of them juicers from the Dominican Republic, are prominent, along with Hispanic mestizos and American Whites), and basketball.

    The credibility of your list is evident from your claim that the German-American Babe Ruth is Black!

    When did full-blooded germans look like this:

    Babe Ruth was obviously mixed race. Tens of millions of “white” americans are.

    As for our PC-addled, negrophilic, modern-day sportswriters, their opinions are barely worth noting.

    Anyone with half a brain would trust the judgement of the sports experts at ESPN and Bleacher Report over that of ignorant and irrational racist fools such as yourself.

    Blacks dominate in boxing?

    See what I mean? Typically dumb WN.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest110

    The boxing experts at ESPN, like anyone with a clue, see blacks dominating the all-time list. Their top 3 of all time are all blacks. Do you see a white involved in the upcoming fight of the century?

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    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    Well, although I haven't investigated the matter, I'm pretty skeptical about the Beethoven claims and based on seemingly knowledgeable commenters, it sounds like Pushkin's ancestry was no more than 1/8 African.

    However, I'd guess that you might be correct about Babe Ruth, since his features do seem to have a noticeable African tinge and based on Wikipedia, the precise details of his family background seem slightly murky, while for unexplained reasons he was sent off to an orphanage at a very young age. Apparently, as a child he was also regularly insulted as looking part-black by his schoolmates.
    , @D. K.
    There is a picture of the German-American George Herman Ruth, Jr., as a very young boy, available on the Web. He has no apparent Negroid features whatsoever-- including his nose.

    Did it ever occur to you that a young male growing up in a very tough neighborhood, and then in a home for incorrigible boys, where he dedicated his life to playing baseball, with rudimentary equipment, just might have had his nose permanently altered, either accidentally or intentionally (on the part of someone else's fists), and then never bothered to have it professionally improved, when he finally became a rich-and-famous ballplayer? People were not all as vain and petty, circa one hundred years ago, as they tend to be today.

    As for ESPN and its ilk, yes, of course, they only hire confirmed geniuses, with deep historical knowledge of both sports and the broader culture-- and only those ingenius savants who also are impeccably fair-minded, impartial, and unbiased. That is why so few of the non-Hispanic White-European-gentile majority population make it on the air-- unless they happen to be young, blonde, leggy, big-titted females (who also have all of those vaunted characteristics listed above, of course).

    Is this list your idea of Black domination of professional boxing, these days?

    http://boxingsociety.com/boxing-champions/


    As for your claim about "[t]ens of millions of 'white' Americans," apparently modern genomics remains unknown to you. Over 95% of White Americans show zero African DNA markers; of the remaining few percent of White Americans, they show tiny amounts, of a similar scale. Altogether White Americans are less than one-tenth of one percent African, as far as DNA analysis can determine.

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  161. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @D. K.
    I was not comparing the IQ results of contemporary Amerindians with IQ results of their distant forebears in Asia. I am assuming, as a matter of course, that ten to fifteen thousand years of evolution, in two different locales, under very different environmental selection pressures, in very different directions, caused the one to develop a decidedly higher IQ than those who left, and who wound up in quite-warmer climes, filled with wildlife that had not evolved to avoid them, and with no other humanoids to have to defend against.

    In other words, I am assuming that remaining Asians in the north, east, and/or northeast portions of that super-continent evolved markedly higher IQs, over the course of ten to fifteen thousand years of evolution, and that the new Europeans did likewise. The newly arrived Amerindians, on the other hand, moved south into a warmer and less challenging environment, in the New World, and thus their own innate intelligence did not evolve upwards, like that of those left behind in Asia-- just as those left behind in Africa, after the Out-of-Africa event, did not suffer the severe environmental pressures that drove up the innate intelligence of the Out-of-Africa expatriates who had arrived in Europe, and survived through the last Ice Age.

    I am assuming, as a matter of course, that ten to fifteen thousand years of evolution, in two different locales, under very different environmental selection pressures, in very different directions, caused the one to develop a decidedly higher IQ than those who left, and who wound up in quite-warmer climes, filled with wildlife that had not evolved to avoid them, and with no other humanoids to have to defend against.

    North American climate is harsher than that of Europe, and the Fertile Crescent and Egypt aren’t much different in terms of harshness than the Mexican plateau.

    Wildlife goes both ways. Natives had to make due with no easily domesticable animals such as pigs and cattle, or horses.

    As for fewer humanoids against whom to defend oneself – this also works both ways. Amerinds, in their isolation, also didn’t have the advantage of gaining technologies from other peoples. Everything they created was done completely on their own. If the Egyptians, or Chinese, etc. were all alone in the world, and began their ascent a few thousand years later because they wandered much further to get to their settlement point, how advanced do you think they’d be by 1500? And if the Germanic barbarians had never encountered civilization to the south of them, from whom they learned iron-making, and later architecture etc., do you think they’d be much more advanced than north american Indians?

    Access doesn’t necessarily indicate genetic intelligence. A modern African, thanks to contact with Europeans, is more likely to be literate than, say, was a European peasant for the middle ages. Does this mean anything in terms of intelligence based on genetics?

    On their own and in complete isolation, Amerinds created a written language, a sophisticated calendar, built pyramids and a road network, etc. Given the fact that they were thousands of years behind in terms of settlement-time in comparison to Old World civilizations, such achievements were comparable to those of their contemporaries (in terms of settlement-time) such as the old Sumerians.*

    Here’s a”pop history” primer:

    http://www.history.com/topics/mayan-scientific-achievements

    Contrast Amerinds to the primitive runes and mounds of pre-(Roman) contact Germanics.

    * Note: I’m not particular a fan of the civilized Amerind culture. The Aztecs were simply evil, of course. But let’s be realistic about them.

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    The proof of the pudding is in the eating; the proof of our intelligence is in the testing. Impoverished North Koreans do not test like Amerindian Mexicans who are living "la vida loca" in El Norte.

    Amerindians are not East, North, and/or Northeast Asians. Ten to fifteen thousand years of separate evolution, in vastly different environments, intervened to change Asian expatriates into "Native Americans." The fact that the latter evolved out of the former does not make them the same, now; it has made them different races-- just as I, as someone ultimately descended from expatriates from Africa, in at least two outmigrations, am not of the same race as Zippy, our Ashanti warrior in Kuwait.

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  162. syonredux says: • Website
    @AP

    Conflating Amerind with East Asian is sloppy thinking.
     
    Why? Amerinds are a combination of Asians (of Siberian origin) and Caucasians (nearest relatives, Armenians and Greeks) with the % of the latter ancestry varying from up to 18% among the northeastern North American tribes to 1% in South America. These groups left the Old World about 15,000 years ago.

    AFAIK no Asian population is known to have dramatically lower "genetic" IQ in comparison to whites. Have you seen studies suggesting otherwise? So why would Amerinds be different?

    Yes, I’ve heard people (Ron Unz, for one) invoke Jensen as some kind of mystical talisman where Amerind IQ is concerned:” All we have to do is provide the right environment, and, hey!presto! Super-Flynn will give them mean IQs of 100.”
     
    No magic, science. Or are you one of those people that doesn't believe in IQ tests?

    98.0: Mexican Whites
    94.3:Mexican Mestizos
    83.3: Mexican Amerinds

    That looks more like a genetic effect than an environmental effect to me
     
    You don't think Mexican whites, mestizos and Amerinds live in dramatically different environments?

    No magic, science. Or are you one of those people that doesn’t believe in IQ tests?

    I believe in IQ tests, dear fellow.I’m just far from certain that Jensen (GOM that he was) was correct in this instance.Arguments from authority have no place in science.

    You don’t think Mexican whites, mestizos and Amerinds live in dramatically different environments?

    Different environments, sure.I’m not quite so certain that Mexican Euros and Mestizos dwell in “dramatically” dichotomous circumstances, though.Of course, the best way to gain insight into the role of environment vs genes in IQ would be to do gene studies on Mestizo siblings. Racial admixture can vary between siblings, and the difference in admixture is not always expressed via phenotype.Hence, if we saw differences in IQ scores between groups of siblings who showed different levels of Amerind admixture….

    Sadly, no one seems interested in doing that kind of study.I assume that they are frightened by what they might find out.

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    • Replies: @AP

    No magic, science. Or are you one of those people that doesn’t believe in IQ tests?

    I believe in IQ tests, dear fellow.I’m just far from certain that Jensen (GOM that he was) was correct in this instance. Arguments from authority have no place in science.
     

    No, but this conversation isn't a peer-reviewed scientific paper. Arguments from authority have a place here just as they do in many instances in every life. If a medical specialist in a field beyond my competence recommends a procedure I might get a second opinion from another specialist, but I won't argue with him. But be that as it may, here's a link and brief summary of Jensen's conclusions:

    http://humanvarieties.org/2013/09/21/jensen-effect-on-racial-iq-differences-and-gpa-controlling-for-ses-in-the-nlsy79-and-nlsy97/

    One particular feature is the BH gap, or black-hispanic gap. In both datasets, the gap increases after SES partialled out. We note the same thing happening at the subtest level, where the BH gap widens for all subtests when SES effect is removed. With regard to the widening black-hispanic gap when controlling for parental SES, the likely reason for this outcome is that hispanic parental education averages 1 or 2 years less than blacks, and their family income was about the same. At the same time, while controlling for SES reduces very little the black-white difference, it reduces the hispanic-white difference drastically. This could be compared with Jensen’s (1973, pp. 306-311) earlier analysis in which he compares blacks, whites and mexicans on PPVT (a caricature of culture loaded or biased test) and Raven (measuring essentially relation eduction, the purest form of Spearman’s g) scores. When equating for Raven, the mexicans scored below the blacks and blacks below the whites on PPVT. At the same time, when equating for PPVT score, blacks scored below whites, and hispanics scored very lightly above whites on Raven. Jensen interpreted this finding as to say that the mexican-white IQ difference was entirely due to socio-economic and/or cultural factors while the black-white IQ difference was due to a mix of genetic and environmental differences. The fact that hispanics were more ‘culturally’ deprived than blacks while scoring higher in cognitive tests is exactly what I was able to find in both NLSY79 and NLSY97. This is all the more interesting since g*d correlations between blacks and whites were not affected by SES but when it comes to hispanics (against either blacks or whites), SES may make a difference.


    You don’t think Mexican whites, mestizos and Amerinds live in dramatically different environments?

    Different environments, sure.I’m not quite so certain that Mexican Euros and Mestizos dwell in “dramatically” dichotomous circumstances, though.
     

    White Mexicans are the country's upper to upper middle classes. They often live in gated communities, enjoy good schools, travel to Europe, etc. etc. Many mestizos live like Sicilian peasants did 100 years ago; others have moved to urban slums comparable, I suppose, the 19th century tenement housing. Many but probably a minority have made it into the middle classes. What were the IQs of Italian and Irish peasants who moved to big American cities and lived in slums 100 years ago? Mexican Amerinds live in the countryside; many don't even speak Spanish, or speak it very poorly. The differences in lifestyles are quite stark.

    I agree with you that it is unfortunate that more and better studies aren't being made on IQ differences. The lack of studies seems to be based on PC, with an underlying premise that people with low IQs are morally worth "less" than those with high IQs when indeed such people are as deserving of living dignified lives just as does anyone else. Knowing group differences could help in formulating more effective social and educational policies than ones falsely assuming (if it is a false assumption) that everyone has equal intellectual potential.

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  163. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @Bliss

    Pushkin was 1/8 African
     
    Actually he was 1/4 african. Which explains why his african ancestry was still visible on his face:

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/pushkingenealogy.html

    Pushkin's preoccupation with his African ancestry is all the more telling since Ibrahim Gannibal was his maternal great-grandfather. Furthermore, Nadja, his mother, was through her own mother, a descendant of the same Pushkin forbear from whom her husband Serge descended. This is genetically interesting since it explains why the poet, who is generally but mistakenly accepted as an octoroon, looks perceptibly blacker.
     

    If Beethoven had African ancestry is was probably even slighter than Pushkin’s
     
    Based on how people who eyeballed him in real life described his appearance it is likely that Beethoven had more than the 25% african that Pushkin was so proud of. Look at Beethoven's death mask:

    http://www.elistmania.com/images/articles/221/Medium/Ludwig_Van_Beethoven.jpg

    Nadja, his mother, was through her own mother, a descendant of the same Pushkin forbear from whom her husband Serge descended

    .

    Sure, but her husband Serge had no African ancestry. The fact that one of Nadja’s non-African, Russian ancestors was related to one of her husband’s non-African, Russian ancestors doesn’t make her more African.

    Frontline screwed up. Pushkin was indeed only 1/8 African.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Sure, but her husband Serge had no African ancestry. The fact that one of Nadja’s non-African, Russian ancestors was related to one of her husband’s non-African, Russian ancestors doesn’t make her more African.

    Frontline screwed up. Pushkin was indeed only 1/8 African.
     
    Thanks for pointing that out. I was going to post on how the FRONTLINE quote makes no logical sense, but you beat me to it.
    , @Bliss

    Sure, but her husband Serge had no African ancestry.
     
    It is hard to believe that PBS could make such a mistake and never correct it. Pushkin does look more like a quadroon than an octoroon.
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  164. syonredux says: • Website
    @AP

    Nadja, his mother, was through her own mother, a descendant of the same Pushkin forbear from whom her husband Serge descended
     
    .

    Sure, but her husband Serge had no African ancestry. The fact that one of Nadja's non-African, Russian ancestors was related to one of her husband's non-African, Russian ancestors doesn't make her more African.

    Frontline screwed up. Pushkin was indeed only 1/8 African.

    Sure, but her husband Serge had no African ancestry. The fact that one of Nadja’s non-African, Russian ancestors was related to one of her husband’s non-African, Russian ancestors doesn’t make her more African.

    Frontline screwed up. Pushkin was indeed only 1/8 African.

    Thanks for pointing that out. I was going to post on how the FRONTLINE quote makes no logical sense, but you beat me to it.

    Read More
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  165. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @Bliss

    Pushkin was 1/8 African
     
    Actually he was 1/4 african. Which explains why his african ancestry was still visible on his face:

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/pushkingenealogy.html

    Pushkin's preoccupation with his African ancestry is all the more telling since Ibrahim Gannibal was his maternal great-grandfather. Furthermore, Nadja, his mother, was through her own mother, a descendant of the same Pushkin forbear from whom her husband Serge descended. This is genetically interesting since it explains why the poet, who is generally but mistakenly accepted as an octoroon, looks perceptibly blacker.
     

    If Beethoven had African ancestry is was probably even slighter than Pushkin’s
     
    Based on how people who eyeballed him in real life described his appearance it is likely that Beethoven had more than the 25% african that Pushkin was so proud of. Look at Beethoven's death mask:

    http://www.elistmania.com/images/articles/221/Medium/Ludwig_Van_Beethoven.jpg

    Look at Napoleon’s death mask. Perhaps he, too, was African?

    Read More
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  166. syonredux says: • Website
    @Ron Unz
    Hmmm...

    You cite a Richard Lynn paper from 2004 reporting that Mexican Mestizos had IQ=94.3 and Mexican Amerinds were at IQ=83.3. But in a 2010 paper, he also reported that Sicilians currently had IQ=89, almost exactly half-way between those two non-white Mexican populations.

    Since such a large fraction of Italian-Americans came from Sicily, doesn't that make you wonder whether Lynn's numbers might either be unreliable or that they might not have a strong non-genetic component? Or do you really believe that Sicilian-Americans today average IQ=89?...

    You claim to be a junior faculty member in English Lit while Arthur Jensen is one of the towering psychometricians of the 20th century. Don't you think you might be better off focusing on Shakespearean sonnets rather than disputing such highly quantitative and technical topics? Then again, you might really just be a teenager in Bangalore simply pulling our legs...

    And, of course, Sicilians aren’t going to number 100 million+ in the USA in 2060…..but Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds are….

    Read More
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  167. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @syonredux

    No magic, science. Or are you one of those people that doesn’t believe in IQ tests?
     
    I believe in IQ tests, dear fellow.I'm just far from certain that Jensen (GOM that he was) was correct in this instance.Arguments from authority have no place in science.

    You don’t think Mexican whites, mestizos and Amerinds live in dramatically different environments?
     
    Different environments, sure.I'm not quite so certain that Mexican Euros and Mestizos dwell in "dramatically" dichotomous circumstances, though.Of course, the best way to gain insight into the role of environment vs genes in IQ would be to do gene studies on Mestizo siblings. Racial admixture can vary between siblings, and the difference in admixture is not always expressed via phenotype.Hence, if we saw differences in IQ scores between groups of siblings who showed different levels of Amerind admixture....

    Sadly, no one seems interested in doing that kind of study.I assume that they are frightened by what they might find out.

    No magic, science. Or are you one of those people that doesn’t believe in IQ tests?

    I believe in IQ tests, dear fellow.I’m just far from certain that Jensen (GOM that he was) was correct in this instance. Arguments from authority have no place in science.

    No, but this conversation isn’t a peer-reviewed scientific paper. Arguments from authority have a place here just as they do in many instances in every life. If a medical specialist in a field beyond my competence recommends a procedure I might get a second opinion from another specialist, but I won’t argue with him. But be that as it may, here’s a link and brief summary of Jensen’s conclusions:

    http://humanvarieties.org/2013/09/21/jensen-effect-on-racial-iq-differences-and-gpa-controlling-for-ses-in-the-nlsy79-and-nlsy97/

    One particular feature is the BH gap, or black-hispanic gap. In both datasets, the gap increases after SES partialled out. We note the same thing happening at the subtest level, where the BH gap widens for all subtests when SES effect is removed. With regard to the widening black-hispanic gap when controlling for parental SES, the likely reason for this outcome is that hispanic parental education averages 1 or 2 years less than blacks, and their family income was about the same. At the same time, while controlling for SES reduces very little the black-white difference, it reduces the hispanic-white difference drastically. This could be compared with Jensen’s (1973, pp. 306-311) earlier analysis in which he compares blacks, whites and mexicans on PPVT (a caricature of culture loaded or biased test) and Raven (measuring essentially relation eduction, the purest form of Spearman’s g) scores. When equating for Raven, the mexicans scored below the blacks and blacks below the whites on PPVT. At the same time, when equating for PPVT score, blacks scored below whites, and hispanics scored very lightly above whites on Raven. Jensen interpreted this finding as to say that the mexican-white IQ difference was entirely due to socio-economic and/or cultural factors while the black-white IQ difference was due to a mix of genetic and environmental differences. The fact that hispanics were more ‘culturally’ deprived than blacks while scoring higher in cognitive tests is exactly what I was able to find in both NLSY79 and NLSY97. This is all the more interesting since g*d correlations between blacks and whites were not affected by SES but when it comes to hispanics (against either blacks or whites), SES may make a difference.

    You don’t think Mexican whites, mestizos and Amerinds live in dramatically different environments?

    Different environments, sure.I’m not quite so certain that Mexican Euros and Mestizos dwell in “dramatically” dichotomous circumstances, though.

    White Mexicans are the country’s upper to upper middle classes. They often live in gated communities, enjoy good schools, travel to Europe, etc. etc. Many mestizos live like Sicilian peasants did 100 years ago; others have moved to urban slums comparable, I suppose, the 19th century tenement housing. Many but probably a minority have made it into the middle classes. What were the IQs of Italian and Irish peasants who moved to big American cities and lived in slums 100 years ago? Mexican Amerinds live in the countryside; many don’t even speak Spanish, or speak it very poorly. The differences in lifestyles are quite stark.

    I agree with you that it is unfortunate that more and better studies aren’t being made on IQ differences. The lack of studies seems to be based on PC, with an underlying premise that people with low IQs are morally worth “less” than those with high IQs when indeed such people are as deserving of living dignified lives just as does anyone else. Knowing group differences could help in formulating more effective social and educational policies than ones falsely assuming (if it is a false assumption) that everyone has equal intellectual potential.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux
    OK, let's say that that Jensen was right.He was a brilliant man after all, and he was right about a great many things.


    So, Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos have the genetic potential to reach a mean IQ of 100.How long is it going to take? How long will it take for Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos to reach a mean IQ of 100 in the USA? Will they attain it by 2060?2080? 2047?
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  168. Bliss says:
    @AP

    Nadja, his mother, was through her own mother, a descendant of the same Pushkin forbear from whom her husband Serge descended
     
    .

    Sure, but her husband Serge had no African ancestry. The fact that one of Nadja's non-African, Russian ancestors was related to one of her husband's non-African, Russian ancestors doesn't make her more African.

    Frontline screwed up. Pushkin was indeed only 1/8 African.

    Sure, but her husband Serge had no African ancestry.

    It is hard to believe that PBS could make such a mistake and never correct it. Pushkin does look more like a quadroon than an octoroon.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kat Grey
    Afrocentrics and their whimsical fantasies are always good for a giggle.
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  169. Toddy Cat says:

    I’ll grant Fred this much; if your country is destined to be overrun with an alien race, you could do worse than Mexicans. I’d by far rather live in Mexico than Nigeria or Saudi Arabia, or some nightmare combination of the two, which is what Europe is looking at. But I’d rather live in the United States. Thanks to guys like Fred, I don’t get that option.

    Fred’s attitude seems to be that, well, letting Mexicans in was a mistake, but now that we’ve let them in, we might as well go the whole hog and let more in, which is somewhat like saying that those first four shots of tequila were a mistake, but now that you’ve done it, you might just as well go ahead and drink the whole quart. I guess this is what passes for logic down where Fred lives.

    Well, Fred, you and Ron Unz are almost certainly going to get the future you want. I hope that it works out the way you think it will, I really do, because there’s no going back once it’s done. Too bad, the U.S. and Mexico were both nice countries once. I have a feeling Meximerica will combine the worst features of both…

    Read More
    • Replies: @rod1963
    Fred is a mixed bag, I think he's went native as the Brits used to say.

    That said, I grew up with campesinos and white Mexicans here in Southern CA, in terms of intelligence and culture they are vastly different from white blue collars and white culture in general. The difference gets worse when you get into the college educated whites. Now I get Hispancs and probably understand better than I do white high brows like Unz who look to me like a alien species of white dudes with a hidden agenda.

    Bottom line, you really don't want these people in a country - because they will drag it down. Look what they've done to their home countries - turn them into cesspits. You don't need to quote gassy old white guys who give out IQ tests to know these folks are bad news. I've worked with them and are friends with public school teachers who have to try to educate them and mostly it's a lost cause.

    First off they remain Mexican, Salvadoran or Peruvian. A large majority of their kids aren't interested or capable of learning anything beyond our watered down 6th grade standards in literacy and math. Getting them to read is almost a lost cause. By high school most will have dropped out.

    At best they become part of the permanent underclass, that Fred warns us about. Maybe Unz thinks this is a good thing, but as one who lives among them, I can tell you it's not.

    The ones that do make usually have a large component of European blood in them. The Amerind types are gutter dwellers and bad news.

    Yeah I know the white HBD/eugenicist argument that IQ wise they are just as bright as any Russian, Italian or Irishman - but it's basically bullshit. Culturally and ethnically wise I'd much rather have Italians, Slavs or Irishmen as neighbors versus a bunch of illiterate and drunken campesinos whose kids think being a tagger and gang banger are valid career choices.
    , @silviosilver
    Hispanics can be useful for creating 'buffer zones' between whites and blacks. Political cards played right, policy could even enhance this 'naturally' occurring effect. Ordinarily this wouldn't be worth mentioning, but when you're left clutching at straws this one's firmer than most others.
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  170. Ron Unz says:
    @Bliss

    The credibility of your list is evident from your claim that the German-American Babe Ruth is Black!
     
    When did full-blooded germans look like this:

    http://life-famous.com/celebrities/babe-ruth/babe-ruth-08.jpg

    Babe Ruth was obviously mixed race. Tens of millions of "white" americans are.

    As for our PC-addled, negrophilic, modern-day sportswriters, their opinions are barely worth noting.
     
    Anyone with half a brain would trust the judgement of the sports experts at ESPN and Bleacher Report over that of ignorant and irrational racist fools such as yourself.

    Blacks dominate in boxing?
     
    See what I mean? Typically dumb WN.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest110

    The boxing experts at ESPN, like anyone with a clue, see blacks dominating the all-time list. Their top 3 of all time are all blacks. Do you see a white involved in the upcoming fight of the century?

    Well, although I haven’t investigated the matter, I’m pretty skeptical about the Beethoven claims and based on seemingly knowledgeable commenters, it sounds like Pushkin’s ancestry was no more than 1/8 African.

    However, I’d guess that you might be correct about Babe Ruth, since his features do seem to have a noticeable African tinge and based on Wikipedia, the precise details of his family background seem slightly murky, while for unexplained reasons he was sent off to an orphanage at a very young age. Apparently, as a child he was also regularly insulted as looking part-black by his schoolmates.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bliss

    although I haven’t investigated the matter, I’m pretty skeptical about the Beethoven claims
     
    I believe Beethoven was mixed race for the following reasons:

    1. The descriptions of him looking like a mulatto with dark brown skin, crinkly hair, broad nose etc

    2. Beethoven's death mask:

    http://www.elistmania.com/images/articles/221/Medium/Ludwig_Van_Beethoven.jpg

    3. The fact that people with african ancestry tend to have a genius for music. There were other classical composers in Europe with known african background (example: the mulatto Chevalier de Saint Georges aka the Black Mozart)
    , @syonredux
    "Well, although I haven’t investigated the matter, I’m pretty skeptical about the Beethoven claims and based on seemingly knowledgeable commenters, it sounds like Pushkin’s ancestry was no more than 1/8 African."

    The "Beethoven was part Black" stuff is pure garbage, Ron. As an 18th century specialist , I've had Black students ask me about this from time to time, and I usually tell them to look up this article:

    The idea that Beethoven was black seems to have been first publicized by Joel Augustus Rogers (1883-1965), a Jamaican-born journalist and author. Rogers was fascinated--some would say obsessed--with sex and race and in fact wrote a book called Sex and Race, a three-volume study of racial mixing self-published in the early 40s. His grasp of the subject was impressively broad, and there's no arguing with his main point: that racial mixing has been common throughout history and in modern times has been particularly prevalent in the New World. Rogers was no anthropologist or genealogist, though, and the list of famous personages to whom he attributes black ancestry in his writings, while not completely off the wall, includes quite a few names likely to strike some today as risible. Examples: Cleopatra (Rogers was possibly the first to make the widely ridiculed claim that the Egyptian queen was black); Cheops, the pharaoh who built the Great Pyramid; Nefertiti; numerous other Egyptians of note; Hannibal of Carthage (Rogers had a tendency to think that anyone who lived in Africa was ipso facto black); the Queen of Sheba; many leading lights of Islam, possibly including Muhammad and extending through Ibn Saud, creator of modern Saudi Arabia; Aesop; Moses; the Roman dramatist Terence; the British statesman Benjamin Disraeli; three popes (Saint Victor I, Saint Miltiades, and Saint Gelasius I); the English poet Robert Browning; five U.S. presidents (Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, Harding, and one Rogers declines to name); Alexander Hamilton; King Gustav IV of Sweden; Goethe; Haydn; and of course Ludwig van Beethoven.

    [.....]


    Beethoven is a case in point. Rogers’ evidence for the composer’s blackness, presented in the third volume of Sex and Race, is twofold: (1) Some of Beethoven’s ancestors lived in Belgium; Belgium had long been controlled by Spain; Spain employed some full-blooded Negro troops and in addition had been overrun by the Moors in medieval times; the Moors, according to Rogers, were a hybrid of white and black African stock; ergo, over the span of 1,000 years, black ancestry could conceivably have been transmitted from Africa to Beethoven. (2) Beethoven had a darker complexion than was typical of northern Europeans of his day, and some referred to him as “the black Spaniard.”

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2598/was-ludwig-van-beethoven-of-african-ancestry
     
    That’s it.The leaps in logic required to buy the theory are obvious.If you are curious, here’s another piece on the matter:

    http://www.academia.edu/4074689/Black_Beethoven_and_the_Racial_Politics_of_Music_H


    RE: Pushkin,

    Yes, he was 1/8th Black.It's a well documented historical fact.
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  171. Bliss says:
    @Ron Unz
    Well, although I haven't investigated the matter, I'm pretty skeptical about the Beethoven claims and based on seemingly knowledgeable commenters, it sounds like Pushkin's ancestry was no more than 1/8 African.

    However, I'd guess that you might be correct about Babe Ruth, since his features do seem to have a noticeable African tinge and based on Wikipedia, the precise details of his family background seem slightly murky, while for unexplained reasons he was sent off to an orphanage at a very young age. Apparently, as a child he was also regularly insulted as looking part-black by his schoolmates.

    although I haven’t investigated the matter, I’m pretty skeptical about the Beethoven claims

    I believe Beethoven was mixed race for the following reasons:

    1. The descriptions of him looking like a mulatto with dark brown skin, crinkly hair, broad nose etc

    2. Beethoven’s death mask:

    3. The fact that people with african ancestry tend to have a genius for music. There were other classical composers in Europe with known african background (example: the mulatto Chevalier de Saint Georges aka the Black Mozart)

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    I believe Beethoven was mixed race for the following reasons:

    1. The descriptions of him looking like a mulatto with dark brown skin, crinkly hair, broad nose etc
     
    Here's a lock of Beethoven's hair:

    http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/07/03/growing-growing-gone-10-celebrity-hair-auctions/photo/beethoven/

    Looks European/Caucasoid in type to me.

    nose: Looks Euro to me.

    dark brown skin: I seem to recall that we had a conversation a while back where I pointed out that terms like "brown" and "black" in reference to complexion are quite relative. Hence, when an 18th-19th century European says that someone is black/brown skinned.....Well, it's not quite the same thing as a 20th-21st century American saying it.

    2. Beethoven’s death mask:

    http://www.elistmania.com/images/articles/221/Medium/Ludwig_Van_Beethoven.jpg
     
    MMM, his life and death masks look quite Euro to me

    http://library.princeton.edu/libraries/firestone/rbsc/aids/C0770/a-c.html

    3. The fact that people with african ancestry tend to have a genius for music. There were other classical composers in Europe with known african background (example: the mulatto Chevalier de Saint Georges aka the Black Mozart)
     
    Well, not too much of a genius, seeing as how they don't show up in Murray's list of giants in Human Accomplishment (p 134).


    And, of course, figures like the Chevalier de Saint Georges actually work against the contention that Beethoven was part Black.European society was quite keen on noticing Black achievement.Had Beethoven been part Black, it would have been as widely discussed a fact as Pushkin's ancestry.

    Finally, please note that the whole Black Beethoven theory rests on house of cards logic:

    Beethoven is a case in point. Rogers’ evidence for the composer’s blackness, presented in the third volume of Sex and Race, is twofold: (1) Some of Beethoven’s ancestors lived in Belgium; Belgium had long been controlled by Spain; Spain employed some full-blooded Negro troops and in addition had been overrun by the Moors in medieval times; the Moors, according to Rogers, were a hybrid of white and black African stock; ergo, over the span of 1,000 years, black ancestry could conceivably have been transmitted from Africa to Beethoven. (2) Beethoven had a darker complexion than was typical of northern Europeans of his day, and some referred to him as “the black Spaniard.”

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2598/was-ludwig-van-beethoven-of-african-ancestry

     

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  172. syonredux says: • Website
    @Ron Unz
    Well, although I haven't investigated the matter, I'm pretty skeptical about the Beethoven claims and based on seemingly knowledgeable commenters, it sounds like Pushkin's ancestry was no more than 1/8 African.

    However, I'd guess that you might be correct about Babe Ruth, since his features do seem to have a noticeable African tinge and based on Wikipedia, the precise details of his family background seem slightly murky, while for unexplained reasons he was sent off to an orphanage at a very young age. Apparently, as a child he was also regularly insulted as looking part-black by his schoolmates.

    “Well, although I haven’t investigated the matter, I’m pretty skeptical about the Beethoven claims and based on seemingly knowledgeable commenters, it sounds like Pushkin’s ancestry was no more than 1/8 African.”

    The “Beethoven was part Black” stuff is pure garbage, Ron. As an 18th century specialist , I’ve had Black students ask me about this from time to time, and I usually tell them to look up this article:

    The idea that Beethoven was black seems to have been first publicized by Joel Augustus Rogers (1883-1965), a Jamaican-born journalist and author. Rogers was fascinated–some would say obsessed–with sex and race and in fact wrote a book called Sex and Race, a three-volume study of racial mixing self-published in the early 40s. His grasp of the subject was impressively broad, and there’s no arguing with his main point: that racial mixing has been common throughout history and in modern times has been particularly prevalent in the New World. Rogers was no anthropologist or genealogist, though, and the list of famous personages to whom he attributes black ancestry in his writings, while not completely off the wall, includes quite a few names likely to strike some today as risible. Examples: Cleopatra (Rogers was possibly the first to make the widely ridiculed claim that the Egyptian queen was black); Cheops, the pharaoh who built the Great Pyramid; Nefertiti; numerous other Egyptians of note; Hannibal of Carthage (Rogers had a tendency to think that anyone who lived in Africa was ipso facto black); the Queen of Sheba; many leading lights of Islam, possibly including Muhammad and extending through Ibn Saud, creator of modern Saudi Arabia; Aesop; Moses; the Roman dramatist Terence; the British statesman Benjamin Disraeli; three popes (Saint Victor I, Saint Miltiades, and Saint Gelasius I); the English poet Robert Browning; five U.S. presidents (Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, Harding, and one Rogers declines to name); Alexander Hamilton; King Gustav IV of Sweden; Goethe; Haydn; and of course Ludwig van Beethoven.

    [.....]

    Beethoven is a case in point. Rogers’ evidence for the composer’s blackness, presented in the third volume of Sex and Race, is twofold: (1) Some of Beethoven’s ancestors lived in Belgium; Belgium had long been controlled by Spain; Spain employed some full-blooded Negro troops and in addition had been overrun by the Moors in medieval times; the Moors, according to Rogers, were a hybrid of white and black African stock; ergo, over the span of 1,000 years, black ancestry could conceivably have been transmitted from Africa to Beethoven. (2) Beethoven had a darker complexion than was typical of northern Europeans of his day, and some referred to him as “the black Spaniard.”

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2598/was-ludwig-van-beethoven-of-african-ancestry

    That’s it.The leaps in logic required to buy the theory are obvious.If you are curious, here’s another piece on the matter:

    http://www.academia.edu/4074689/Black_Beethoven_and_the_Racial_Politics_of_Music_H

    RE: Pushkin,

    Yes, he was 1/8th Black.It’s a well documented historical fact.

    Read More
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  173. Ron Unz says:
    @syonredux

    You cite a Richard Lynn paper from 2004 reporting that Mexican Mestizos had IQ=94.3 and Mexican Amerinds were at IQ=83.3. But in a 2010 paper, he also reported that Sicilians currently had IQ=89, almost exactly half-way between those two non-white Mexican populations.

    Since such a large fraction of Italian-Americans came from Sicily, doesn’t that make you wonder whether Lynn’s numbers might either be unreliable or that they might not have a strong non-genetic component? Or do you really believe that Sicilian-Americans today average IQ=89?…
     
    Don't know, Ron. I've never seen a study on Sicilian-American IQ.For that matter, I've never seen a breakdown on what percentage of Italian-Americans are of Sicilian descent.And I've never seen a breakdown on what percentage of Italian-Americans are of wholly Italian descent. Those seem like fairly important things to know, Ron.

    And since you are so fond of personal anecdotes about how a huge number of the Hispanics that you have met claim New Mexican ancestry, all of the "Italian-Americans" that I knew growing up in CA were part something else.Indeed, two of my brothers are married to women who are part-Italian.One of them is half-Polish, while the other is half-Finnish.

    You claim to be a junior faculty member in English Lit while Arthur Jensen is one of the towering psychometricians of the 20th century.
     
    Yes, Ron, he was a great man in his field.On the other hand, we are talking about science, not religion.Hence, no man is infallible, not even Pope Arthur

    Don’t you think you might be better off focusing on Shakespearean sonnets rather than disputing such highly quantitative and technical topics?
     
    You mean that I should just meekly accept whatever Ron Unz has to say on how brilliant Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds are?

    Then again, you might really just be a teenager in Bangalore simply pulling our legs…
     
    MMMM, maybe I am a teenager in Bangalore....Or a Japanese girl in Tokyo....or a transvestite transwoman in Reykjavík.....Whatever makes you happy, Ron.

    I’ve never seen a study on Sicilian-American IQ.For that matter, I’ve never seen a breakdown on what percentage of Italian-Americans are of Sicilian descent.

    Well, Lynn’s 2010 numbers for other Southern Italians aren’t much higher at IQ=90-92, well below those of the Mexican Mestizos you’re always complaining about. Lynn: “The only region in Italy where the IQ is as low as 89 is Sicily. In the other four regions of southern Italy the IQ lies between 90 and 92.” And the absolutely overwhelming majority of Italian-Americans are from Southern Italy or Sicily. Here’s a link to an Italian anthropology blogger summarizing and disputing Lynn’s analysis:

    http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/10/richard-lynn-further-refuted.html

    Furthermore, a massive very solid early 1970s IQ study determined that Ireland’s IQ was just 87, far below Mexican Mestizos and only a little above your pure Amerinds. Given all the negative things you often say about the Irish, I doubt you’ll find this too surprising:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-revised/

    And since for geographical and religious reasons, the ethnic group most likely to intermarry with Italians were the Irish, wouldn’t they have dragged down the poor Sicilians?

    Really, isn’t it time for you to admit that assuming all of Lynn’s silly IQ numbers represent purest genetic reality is more than a little doubtful? In exchange, I’ll promise not to quote some random blogger that the Shakespeare’s works were actually written by the Earl of Oxford or whomever.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Well, Lynn’s 2010 numbers for other Southern Italians aren’t much higher at IQ=90-92, well below those of the Mexican Mestizos you’re always complaining about.
     
    Ron, I was asking for data on Sicilian-American IQ....

    Furthermore, a massive very solid early 1970s IQ study determined that Ireland’s IQ was just 87, far below Mexican Mestizos and only a little above your pure Amerinds. Given all the negative things you often say about the Irish, I doubt you’ll find this too surprising:
     
    Yeah, you're a bit fixated on that low Irish IQ score, Ron.OK, let's say that it's valid, and that the Irish have experienced a massive rise in IQ between the early '70s and now.When are we going to see "Super-Flynn" work its black magic on Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds and give them mean IQs of 100? Will it happen by 2060? Granted, I might be dead by then, but my children and grandchildren will be alive, so the issue is of more than academic interest.

    So, please, give me a timetable.

    And since for geographical and religious reasons, the ethnic group most likely to intermarry with Italians were the Irish, wouldn’t they have dragged down the poor Sicilians?
     
    Data, Ron? Do have figures on Irish-Italian intermarriage rates? Just curious.

    Really, isn’t it time for you to admit that assuming all of Lynn’s silly IQ numbers represent purest genetic reality
     
    Ron, nothing represents "purest genetic reality." Environmental factors are always at play.

    is more than a little doubtful? In exchange, I’ll promise not to quote some random blogger that the Shakespeare’s works were actually written by the Earl of Oxford or whomever.
     
    Ron, Ron, I'm not even an Early Modernist.....
    , @Bliss

    a massive very solid early 1970s IQ study determined that Ireland’s IQ was just 87
     
    Very useful information. The Irish are the most northwestern of europeans, the furthest away from non-europeans. Does that mean they are the purest euros? If so, what do the white supremacists here have to say about their purest ethnicity having an IQ below the global average?
    , @syonredux

    Finally, the central point made by my original Race/IQ article was that the facts are fully consistent with what I termed “the Weak IQ Hypothesis,” namely that a large fraction of tested IQ differences among populations are probably socio-economic in origin but that a residual genetic difference may certainly exist. The notion of a genetic/innate 4 point difference in IQ among the populations under discussion seems perfectly possible to me. But I think there’s just as much evidence and likelihood of similar-sized genetic/innate IQ differences between various white European populations, with various Nord peoples averaging perhaps a bit brighter than various Med peoples or that sort of thing. To argue for one case while totally denying the other is ridiculous. Whether such a hypothetical 4 point IQ difference is large or small depends entirely upon one’s perspective.
     
    Since we are bouncing all over the place, is this your position, Ron? That, once environmental factors are equalized, every population/race/ethnic group will have a mean IQ that is within 4 IQ points of very other population/race/ethnic group? So, Sub-Saharan Africans, under ideal environmental conditions, will have an IQ that is no more than 4 points below that of, say, Ashkenazi Jews?
    , @D. K.
    Where do the IQ numbers originate? Is not the answer usually "in grade-school classrooms, from ratio-IQ tests given to captive audiences of children," rather than from random samples of adults taking deviation-IQ tests? Has it ever occurred to anyone (other than me) that ten-year-old kids and twenty-five-year-old adults might produce different results, and that the results from young adults would be far-more germane to social outcomes, like lifetime earnings and social behaviors?

    Is it just possible that "the Irish Race," as my English ancestors used to condescendingly refer to my Irish ancestors, back in the day, happens to mature more slowly than certain other demographic groups, and that relative immaturity is what is being captured in their purported IQ distribution?

    Are differential maturation rates, due to both nutrition and evolution, not a more plausible explanation for the famous Flynn Effect than the notion that even civilized humanity, over the course of recorded history, has been getting smarter and smarter, generation after generation, at a head-swivelling rate? Do smart people really believe that the IQ distribution in Pericles' Athens would have put those accomplished Greeks overwhelmingly in the double-digit IQ range, when compared to the United States of today? I, for one, certainly do not believe it!
    , @syonredux

    well below those of the Mexican Mestizos you’re always complaining about.
     
    Hard not to complain about the people who are taking my culture and my country away from me, Ron.As you've noted, I'm a professor of English lit.And Milton and Johnson and Pope have no place in the new, Hispanic Mestizo America.As the [email protected] activists have told me at innumerable conferences, a Brown America needs a Brown literature.Melville and Henry James will have to go.I will have to go.

    It's sad watching people destroy the very thing that gives your life meaning.

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  174. Truth says:

    All of this Babe Ruth and Beethoven being black stuff is silly. I mean, given that there were no other blacks around, what are the odds that a man with African heritage could make a name for himself in music or sports?

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  175. syonredux says: • Website
    @Ron Unz

    I’ve never seen a study on Sicilian-American IQ.For that matter, I’ve never seen a breakdown on what percentage of Italian-Americans are of Sicilian descent.
     
    Well, Lynn's 2010 numbers for other Southern Italians aren't much higher at IQ=90-92, well below those of the Mexican Mestizos you're always complaining about. Lynn: "The only region in Italy where the IQ is as low as 89 is Sicily. In the other four regions of southern Italy the IQ lies between 90 and 92." And the absolutely overwhelming majority of Italian-Americans are from Southern Italy or Sicily. Here's a link to an Italian anthropology blogger summarizing and disputing Lynn's analysis:

    http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/10/richard-lynn-further-refuted.html

    Furthermore, a massive very solid early 1970s IQ study determined that Ireland's IQ was just 87, far below Mexican Mestizos and only a little above your pure Amerinds. Given all the negative things you often say about the Irish, I doubt you'll find this too surprising:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-revised/

    And since for geographical and religious reasons, the ethnic group most likely to intermarry with Italians were the Irish, wouldn't they have dragged down the poor Sicilians?

    Really, isn't it time for you to admit that assuming all of Lynn's silly IQ numbers represent purest genetic reality is more than a little doubtful? In exchange, I'll promise not to quote some random blogger that the Shakespeare's works were actually written by the Earl of Oxford or whomever.

    Well, Lynn’s 2010 numbers for other Southern Italians aren’t much higher at IQ=90-92, well below those of the Mexican Mestizos you’re always complaining about.

    Ron, I was asking for data on Sicilian-American IQ….

    Furthermore, a massive very solid early 1970s IQ study determined that Ireland’s IQ was just 87, far below Mexican Mestizos and only a little above your pure Amerinds. Given all the negative things you often say about the Irish, I doubt you’ll find this too surprising:

    Yeah, you’re a bit fixated on that low Irish IQ score, Ron.OK, let’s say that it’s valid, and that the Irish have experienced a massive rise in IQ between the early ’70s and now.When are we going to see “Super-Flynn” work its black magic on Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds and give them mean IQs of 100? Will it happen by 2060? Granted, I might be dead by then, but my children and grandchildren will be alive, so the issue is of more than academic interest.

    So, please, give me a timetable.

    And since for geographical and religious reasons, the ethnic group most likely to intermarry with Italians were the Irish, wouldn’t they have dragged down the poor Sicilians?

    Data, Ron? Do have figures on Irish-Italian intermarriage rates? Just curious.

    Really, isn’t it time for you to admit that assuming all of Lynn’s silly IQ numbers represent purest genetic reality

    Ron, nothing represents “purest genetic reality.” Environmental factors are always at play.

    is more than a little doubtful? In exchange, I’ll promise not to quote some random blogger that the Shakespeare’s works were actually written by the Earl of Oxford or whomever.

    Ron, Ron, I’m not even an Early Modernist…..

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bliss

    OK, let’s say that it’s valid, and that the Irish have experienced a massive rise in IQ between the early ’70s and now.
     
    What massive rise in IQ? According to Lynn's 2010 numbers the IQ of Ireland is 92:

    http://www.ttu.ee/public/m/mart-murdvee/EconPsy/2/Lynn_Meisenberg_2010_National_IQs_calculated_and_validated_for_108_nations.pdf
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  176. Bliss says:
    @Ron Unz

    I’ve never seen a study on Sicilian-American IQ.For that matter, I’ve never seen a breakdown on what percentage of Italian-Americans are of Sicilian descent.
     
    Well, Lynn's 2010 numbers for other Southern Italians aren't much higher at IQ=90-92, well below those of the Mexican Mestizos you're always complaining about. Lynn: "The only region in Italy where the IQ is as low as 89 is Sicily. In the other four regions of southern Italy the IQ lies between 90 and 92." And the absolutely overwhelming majority of Italian-Americans are from Southern Italy or Sicily. Here's a link to an Italian anthropology blogger summarizing and disputing Lynn's analysis:

    http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/10/richard-lynn-further-refuted.html

    Furthermore, a massive very solid early 1970s IQ study determined that Ireland's IQ was just 87, far below Mexican Mestizos and only a little above your pure Amerinds. Given all the negative things you often say about the Irish, I doubt you'll find this too surprising:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-revised/

    And since for geographical and religious reasons, the ethnic group most likely to intermarry with Italians were the Irish, wouldn't they have dragged down the poor Sicilians?

    Really, isn't it time for you to admit that assuming all of Lynn's silly IQ numbers represent purest genetic reality is more than a little doubtful? In exchange, I'll promise not to quote some random blogger that the Shakespeare's works were actually written by the Earl of Oxford or whomever.

    a massive very solid early 1970s IQ study determined that Ireland’s IQ was just 87

    Very useful information. The Irish are the most northwestern of europeans, the furthest away from non-europeans. Does that mean they are the purest euros? If so, what do the white supremacists here have to say about their purest ethnicity having an IQ below the global average?

    Read More
    • Replies: @iSteveFan

    The Irish are the most northwestern of europeans, the furthest away from non-europeans. Does that mean they are the purest euros? If so, what do the white supremacists here have to say about their purest ethnicity having an IQ below the global average?
     
    This is funny. On posts about immigration, we are told the Irish weren't even considered white. Now on this little mini thread about low Irish IQ, we are told they are the purest of whites.
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  177. Bliss says:
    @syonredux

    Well, Lynn’s 2010 numbers for other Southern Italians aren’t much higher at IQ=90-92, well below those of the Mexican Mestizos you’re always complaining about.
     
    Ron, I was asking for data on Sicilian-American IQ....

    Furthermore, a massive very solid early 1970s IQ study determined that Ireland’s IQ was just 87, far below Mexican Mestizos and only a little above your pure Amerinds. Given all the negative things you often say about the Irish, I doubt you’ll find this too surprising:
     
    Yeah, you're a bit fixated on that low Irish IQ score, Ron.OK, let's say that it's valid, and that the Irish have experienced a massive rise in IQ between the early '70s and now.When are we going to see "Super-Flynn" work its black magic on Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds and give them mean IQs of 100? Will it happen by 2060? Granted, I might be dead by then, but my children and grandchildren will be alive, so the issue is of more than academic interest.

    So, please, give me a timetable.

    And since for geographical and religious reasons, the ethnic group most likely to intermarry with Italians were the Irish, wouldn’t they have dragged down the poor Sicilians?
     
    Data, Ron? Do have figures on Irish-Italian intermarriage rates? Just curious.

    Really, isn’t it time for you to admit that assuming all of Lynn’s silly IQ numbers represent purest genetic reality
     
    Ron, nothing represents "purest genetic reality." Environmental factors are always at play.

    is more than a little doubtful? In exchange, I’ll promise not to quote some random blogger that the Shakespeare’s works were actually written by the Earl of Oxford or whomever.
     
    Ron, Ron, I'm not even an Early Modernist.....

    OK, let’s say that it’s valid, and that the Irish have experienced a massive rise in IQ between the early ’70s and now.

    What massive rise in IQ? According to Lynn’s 2010 numbers the IQ of Ireland is 92:

    http://www.ttu.ee/public/m/mart-murdvee/EconPsy/2/Lynn_Meisenberg_2010_National_IQs_calculated_and_validated_for_108_nations.pdf

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    OK, let’s say that it’s valid, and that the Irish have experienced a massive rise in IQ between the early ’70s and now.

    What massive rise in IQ? According to Lynn’s 2010 numbers the IQ of Ireland is 92:
     
    I'm not absolutely sure where Ron currently places Irish IQ*.Here he is discussing it, though:

    And what does that information tell us? Here is the complete listing of all IQ studies provided by Lynn (omitting his careless duplications), including sample-size, year, and Flynn-adjusted score, to which I have added a 2009 IQ of 100 based on the recent PISA results, which were almost identical to those of Britain:

    96(1964) = 90
    3466(1972) = 87
    1361(1988) = 97
    191(1990) = 87
    2029(1991) = 96
    1361(1993) = 93
    2029(1993) = 91
    10000(2000) = 95
    3937(2009 PISA) = 100
    200(2012) = 92
    Now to my eye, this list of datapoints indicates a clear and obvious rise in Irish IQ, during which the gap to British scores steadily dropped from 13 points in 1972 to zero in 2009. But since my critics will surely say I’m as blind as a bat, I also took out my statistical toolkit and ran a weighted-correlation on the data, comparing year with IQ and weighting by sample size. The result was a correlation of 0.86. Indeed, the pattern is so robust that even if we drop the 2009 PISA score since “it’s not really IQ,” the correlation scarcely changes. Obviously, if tested Irish IQs were innate and unchanging as so many seem to claim, the correlation would have been 0.00, a very different value.
     
    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/raceiq-irish-iq-chinese-iq/

    However, once could argue that this passage ("during which the gap to British scores steadily dropped from 13 points in 1972 to zero in 2009") would seem to indicate that he thinks that the Irish currently have a mean IQ of 100:

    (3937(2009 PISA) = 100
     

    Very useful information. The Irish are the most northwestern of europeans, the furthest away from non-europeans. Does that mean they are the purest euros? If so, what do the white supremacists here have to say about their purest ethnicity having an IQ below the global average?
     
    Has anyone ever claimed that the Irish are the smartest White population? Most of the IQ stuff that I have seen indicates that Ashkenazi Jews have the highest mean IQ of any White population


    *For some odd reason, Ron seems to find ways to turn discussions on Hispanic Mestizo/Amerind IQ into discussions about Irish IQ.....
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  178. syonredux says: • Website
    @Bliss

    although I haven’t investigated the matter, I’m pretty skeptical about the Beethoven claims
     
    I believe Beethoven was mixed race for the following reasons:

    1. The descriptions of him looking like a mulatto with dark brown skin, crinkly hair, broad nose etc

    2. Beethoven's death mask:

    http://www.elistmania.com/images/articles/221/Medium/Ludwig_Van_Beethoven.jpg

    3. The fact that people with african ancestry tend to have a genius for music. There were other classical composers in Europe with known african background (example: the mulatto Chevalier de Saint Georges aka the Black Mozart)

    I believe Beethoven was mixed race for the following reasons:

    1. The descriptions of him looking like a mulatto with dark brown skin, crinkly hair, broad nose etc

    Here’s a lock of Beethoven’s hair:

    http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/07/03/growing-growing-gone-10-celebrity-hair-auctions/photo/beethoven/

    Looks European/Caucasoid in type to me.

    nose: Looks Euro to me.

    dark brown skin: I seem to recall that we had a conversation a while back where I pointed out that terms like “brown” and “black” in reference to complexion are quite relative. Hence, when an 18th-19th century European says that someone is black/brown skinned…..Well, it’s not quite the same thing as a 20th-21st century American saying it.

    2. Beethoven’s death mask:

    http://www.elistmania.com/images/articles/221/Medium/Ludwig_Van_Beethoven.jpg

    MMM, his life and death masks look quite Euro to me

    http://library.princeton.edu/libraries/firestone/rbsc/aids/C0770/a-c.html

    3. The fact that people with african ancestry tend to have a genius for music. There were other classical composers in Europe with known african background (example: the mulatto Chevalier de Saint Georges aka the Black Mozart)

    Well, not too much of a genius, seeing as how they don’t show up in Murray’s list of giants in Human Accomplishment (p 134).

    And, of course, figures like the Chevalier de Saint Georges actually work against the contention that Beethoven was part Black.European society was quite keen on noticing Black achievement.Had Beethoven been part Black, it would have been as widely discussed a fact as Pushkin’s ancestry.

    Finally, please note that the whole Black Beethoven theory rests on house of cards logic:

    Beethoven is a case in point. Rogers’ evidence for the composer’s blackness, presented in the third volume of Sex and Race, is twofold: (1) Some of Beethoven’s ancestors lived in Belgium; Belgium had long been controlled by Spain; Spain employed some full-blooded Negro troops and in addition had been overrun by the Moors in medieval times; the Moors, according to Rogers, were a hybrid of white and black African stock; ergo, over the span of 1,000 years, black ancestry could conceivably have been transmitted from Africa to Beethoven. (2) Beethoven had a darker complexion than was typical of northern Europeans of his day, and some referred to him as “the black Spaniard.”

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2598/was-ludwig-van-beethoven-of-african-ancestry

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  179. rod1963 says:
    @Toddy Cat
    I'll grant Fred this much; if your country is destined to be overrun with an alien race, you could do worse than Mexicans. I'd by far rather live in Mexico than Nigeria or Saudi Arabia, or some nightmare combination of the two, which is what Europe is looking at. But I'd rather live in the United States. Thanks to guys like Fred, I don't get that option.

    Fred's attitude seems to be that, well, letting Mexicans in was a mistake, but now that we've let them in, we might as well go the whole hog and let more in, which is somewhat like saying that those first four shots of tequila were a mistake, but now that you've done it, you might just as well go ahead and drink the whole quart. I guess this is what passes for logic down where Fred lives.

    Well, Fred, you and Ron Unz are almost certainly going to get the future you want. I hope that it works out the way you think it will, I really do, because there's no going back once it's done. Too bad, the U.S. and Mexico were both nice countries once. I have a feeling Meximerica will combine the worst features of both...

    Fred is a mixed bag, I think he’s went native as the Brits used to say.

    That said, I grew up with campesinos and white Mexicans here in Southern CA, in terms of intelligence and culture they are vastly different from white blue collars and white culture in general. The difference gets worse when you get into the college educated whites. Now I get Hispancs and probably understand better than I do white high brows like Unz who look to me like a alien species of white dudes with a hidden agenda.

    Bottom line, you really don’t want these people in a country – because they will drag it down. Look what they’ve done to their home countries – turn them into cesspits. You don’t need to quote gassy old white guys who give out IQ tests to know these folks are bad news. I’ve worked with them and are friends with public school teachers who have to try to educate them and mostly it’s a lost cause.

    First off they remain Mexican, Salvadoran or Peruvian. A large majority of their kids aren’t interested or capable of learning anything beyond our watered down 6th grade standards in literacy and math. Getting them to read is almost a lost cause. By high school most will have dropped out.

    At best they become part of the permanent underclass, that Fred warns us about. Maybe Unz thinks this is a good thing, but as one who lives among them, I can tell you it’s not.

    The ones that do make usually have a large component of European blood in them. The Amerind types are gutter dwellers and bad news.

    Yeah I know the white HBD/eugenicist argument that IQ wise they are just as bright as any Russian, Italian or Irishman – but it’s basically bullshit. Culturally and ethnically wise I’d much rather have Italians, Slavs or Irishmen as neighbors versus a bunch of illiterate and drunken campesinos whose kids think being a tagger and gang banger are valid career choices.

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  180. D. K. says:
    @AP

    I am assuming, as a matter of course, that ten to fifteen thousand years of evolution, in two different locales, under very different environmental selection pressures, in very different directions, caused the one to develop a decidedly higher IQ than those who left, and who wound up in quite-warmer climes, filled with wildlife that had not evolved to avoid them, and with no other humanoids to have to defend against.
     
    North American climate is harsher than that of Europe, and the Fertile Crescent and Egypt aren't much different in terms of harshness than the Mexican plateau.

    Wildlife goes both ways. Natives had to make due with no easily domesticable animals such as pigs and cattle, or horses.

    As for fewer humanoids against whom to defend oneself - this also works both ways. Amerinds, in their isolation, also didn't have the advantage of gaining technologies from other peoples. Everything they created was done completely on their own. If the Egyptians, or Chinese, etc. were all alone in the world, and began their ascent a few thousand years later because they wandered much further to get to their settlement point, how advanced do you think they'd be by 1500? And if the Germanic barbarians had never encountered civilization to the south of them, from whom they learned iron-making, and later architecture etc., do you think they'd be much more advanced than north american Indians?

    Access doesn't necessarily indicate genetic intelligence. A modern African, thanks to contact with Europeans, is more likely to be literate than, say, was a European peasant for the middle ages. Does this mean anything in terms of intelligence based on genetics?

    On their own and in complete isolation, Amerinds created a written language, a sophisticated calendar, built pyramids and a road network, etc. Given the fact that they were thousands of years behind in terms of settlement-time in comparison to Old World civilizations, such achievements were comparable to those of their contemporaries (in terms of settlement-time) such as the old Sumerians.*

    Here's a"pop history" primer:

    http://www.history.com/topics/mayan-scientific-achievements

    Contrast Amerinds to the primitive runes and mounds of pre-(Roman) contact Germanics.

    * Note: I'm not particular a fan of the civilized Amerind culture. The Aztecs were simply evil, of course. But let's be realistic about them.

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating; the proof of our intelligence is in the testing. Impoverished North Koreans do not test like Amerindian Mexicans who are living “la vida loca” in El Norte.

    Amerindians are not East, North, and/or Northeast Asians. Ten to fifteen thousand years of separate evolution, in vastly different environments, intervened to change Asian expatriates into “Native Americans.” The fact that the latter evolved out of the former does not make them the same, now; it has made them different races– just as I, as someone ultimately descended from expatriates from Africa, in at least two outmigrations, am not of the same race as Zippy, our Ashanti warrior in Kuwait.

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    • Replies: @AP

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating; the proof of our intelligence is in the testing. Impoverished North Koreans do not test like Amerindian Mexicans who are living “la vida loca” in El Norte.
     
    Communist societies are sort of modern despite impoverishment and do have generations of good schools.

    The fact that the latter evolved out of the former does not make them the same, now; it has made them different races– just as I, as someone ultimately descended from expatriates from Africa, in at least two outmigrations, am not of the same race as Zippy, our Ashanti warrior in Kuwait.

     

    Humans left Africa about 60,000 years ago, and those that left interbreed with Neanderthals who contributed 2-4% to their genetic structure.

    Amerind ancestors left Asia only 15,000 years ago, carrying with them the same Neanderthal mix that they share with other Asians (and Caucasians - remember Amerinds have some Caucasian ancestry also) and that Africans lack. So they are much, much closer to Asians than are Africans. They have the same backgrounds and are separated by only 1/4 as much time.

    Ron - any adoption studies involving Native Americans and Mexicans?
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  181. syonredux says: • Website
    @Bliss

    OK, let’s say that it’s valid, and that the Irish have experienced a massive rise in IQ between the early ’70s and now.
     
    What massive rise in IQ? According to Lynn's 2010 numbers the IQ of Ireland is 92:

    http://www.ttu.ee/public/m/mart-murdvee/EconPsy/2/Lynn_Meisenberg_2010_National_IQs_calculated_and_validated_for_108_nations.pdf

    OK, let’s say that it’s valid, and that the Irish have experienced a massive rise in IQ between the early ’70s and now.

    What massive rise in IQ? According to Lynn’s 2010 numbers the IQ of Ireland is 92:

    I’m not absolutely sure where Ron currently places Irish IQ*.Here he is discussing it, though:

    And what does that information tell us? Here is the complete listing of all IQ studies provided by Lynn (omitting his careless duplications), including sample-size, year, and Flynn-adjusted score, to which I have added a 2009 IQ of 100 based on the recent PISA results, which were almost identical to those of Britain:

    96(1964) = 90
    3466(1972) = 87
    1361(1988) = 97
    191(1990) = 87
    2029(1991) = 96
    1361(1993) = 93
    2029(1993) = 91
    10000(2000) = 95
    3937(2009 PISA) = 100
    200(2012) = 92
    Now to my eye, this list of datapoints indicates a clear and obvious rise in Irish IQ, during which the gap to British scores steadily dropped from 13 points in 1972 to zero in 2009. But since my critics will surely say I’m as blind as a bat, I also took out my statistical toolkit and ran a weighted-correlation on the data, comparing year with IQ and weighting by sample size. The result was a correlation of 0.86. Indeed, the pattern is so robust that even if we drop the 2009 PISA score since “it’s not really IQ,” the correlation scarcely changes. Obviously, if tested Irish IQs were innate and unchanging as so many seem to claim, the correlation would have been 0.00, a very different value.

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/raceiq-irish-iq-chinese-iq/

    However, once could argue that this passage (“during which the gap to British scores steadily dropped from 13 points in 1972 to zero in 2009″) would seem to indicate that he thinks that the Irish currently have a mean IQ of 100:

    (3937(2009 PISA) = 100

    Very useful information. The Irish are the most northwestern of europeans, the furthest away from non-europeans. Does that mean they are the purest euros? If so, what do the white supremacists here have to say about their purest ethnicity having an IQ below the global average?

    Has anyone ever claimed that the Irish are the smartest White population? Most of the IQ stuff that I have seen indicates that Ashkenazi Jews have the highest mean IQ of any White population

    *For some odd reason, Ron seems to find ways to turn discussions on Hispanic Mestizo/Amerind IQ into discussions about Irish IQ…..

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  182. joe webb says:

    the bilious twaddle of Fred who actually does think he knows it all, …..I live around Mexicans in Silicon Valley. Mostly they are willing to accept a subaltern status and are friendly enough in the workplaces as waiters, etc. However, they tend to a lot of sex crimes like molestation and then burglary.

    It could be a lot worse, with the Congo on our border. However the local paper every day has mexicans in the crime stories.

    Here is something from yesterday’s Palo Alto Daily Post:

    Sent: Friday, April 24, 2015 12:25 PM
    Subject: Fw: “Could Ferguson Happen Here” right here next to Palo Alto?

    April 23, 2015 , p. 1 of the Palo Alto Daily Post, “Police figures show a disproportionate number of arrests of blacks, Hispanics” (sic as they say, Hispanics in caps, I guess they get more respect even in the minds of Liberals).

    For 2014, 11.2 % of arrests in Mountain View (adjacent to Palo Alto) “were black, but blacks only represent 2.2 %..of the population” of Mountain View (lower case again). “Hispanics (upper case again) represent 21.7% of the city’s population but made up 43.6 % of arrests.”

    I suggest that folks write the Daily Post and complain about this White Privilege mind-set of the writer, one Jen Nowell, who obviously is far more prejudiced against ‘blacks’ than ‘Hispanics.’

    There was a panel discussion in Mountain View city hall and one LaDoris Cordell was “concerned” about the numbers. LaDoris is a retired judge and police auditor for San Jose . Her name sounds Blackish.

    The police chief Max Bosel said, that the suspects contacted by the cops ” …are [also] described by crime victims.” So much for rationality. Then the comedy proceeded with Joe Simitian, the Santa Clara Co. supervisor pol, who handed out key pads to the sparse audience of about 85 who “voted” on whether they thought Mountain View could become another Ferguson. 46% voted yes, and 34% voted no, and 20 % voted dunno.

    . One cop, Marco Garcia who spoke said that he “loves to smile to diffuse a situation.” Promotions ahead, well played Marco.
    ——-
    Mountain View is in the heart of Silicon Valley. The other 80% or so of folks in Mountain View are well-heeled Whites and mostly nerds.

    My suspicion is that this LaDoris be black, I mean Black, and just wants to stir the shit. Also the fanatic religious liberal Daily Post, like the Jewtimes, wants to stir the shit. Instigators.
    —-
    I was just informed that LaDoris be black, I mean Black.

    What lies ahead is probably more crime as the anchor babes do not know the dirt of mexico and also don’t fear deportation, thus leading to more crime as they compare themselves to their racial betters, especially in high intelligence white regions like Silicon Valley.

    but maybe not. I broke up a fight this week between a mexican 24 year old or so and a 50ish White guy I know at a store that I was shopping in. I did not see the start of the fight, but intervened to stop it. The mexican kid could not stop his aggression, and also was completely outclassing the white guy physically and in age. They both worked at the store.

    I kept my hands on the mexican kid’s chest and tried to talk to him . Do you want to go to jail, I don’t care, I ‘ve been there. Do you want to lose your job. don’t care. Do you want a record? already have one. The other store clerks finally arrived and excused me from the actions.

    These mexers of the non-serious crime types, like drug cartels, etc. often have big tempers.. I have seen it and while they are generally likable as opposed to rude, etc. Chinese, they are trouble if for no other reason than close to zero assimilation and low intelligence, whether it is 90 or 94. I recall Lynn’s general number of 90 from this 2007 book.

    Anyway, all is not intelligence. The mexers are far from blacks thank god, but are still volatile in temperament compared to whites. Why take a chance with crazy ideas like Fred’s ..who knows everything. He is married to a Mexican so his subjectivity is, shall we say, suspect.
    Joe Webb

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  183. D. K. says:
    @Bliss

    The credibility of your list is evident from your claim that the German-American Babe Ruth is Black!
     
    When did full-blooded germans look like this:

    http://life-famous.com/celebrities/babe-ruth/babe-ruth-08.jpg

    Babe Ruth was obviously mixed race. Tens of millions of "white" americans are.

    As for our PC-addled, negrophilic, modern-day sportswriters, their opinions are barely worth noting.
     
    Anyone with half a brain would trust the judgement of the sports experts at ESPN and Bleacher Report over that of ignorant and irrational racist fools such as yourself.

    Blacks dominate in boxing?
     
    See what I mean? Typically dumb WN.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/greatest/featureVideo?page=greatest110

    The boxing experts at ESPN, like anyone with a clue, see blacks dominating the all-time list. Their top 3 of all time are all blacks. Do you see a white involved in the upcoming fight of the century?

    There is a picture of the German-American George Herman Ruth, Jr., as a very young boy, available on the Web. He has no apparent Negroid features whatsoever– including his nose.

    Did it ever occur to you that a young male growing up in a very tough neighborhood, and then in a home for incorrigible boys, where he dedicated his life to playing baseball, with rudimentary equipment, just might have had his nose permanently altered, either accidentally or intentionally (on the part of someone else’s fists), and then never bothered to have it professionally improved, when he finally became a rich-and-famous ballplayer? People were not all as vain and petty, circa one hundred years ago, as they tend to be today.

    As for ESPN and its ilk, yes, of course, they only hire confirmed geniuses, with deep historical knowledge of both sports and the broader culture– and only those ingenius savants who also are impeccably fair-minded, impartial, and unbiased. That is why so few of the non-Hispanic White-European-gentile majority population make it on the air– unless they happen to be young, blonde, leggy, big-titted females (who also have all of those vaunted characteristics listed above, of course).

    Is this list your idea of Black domination of professional boxing, these days?

    http://boxingsociety.com/boxing-champions/

    As for your claim about “[t]ens of millions of ‘white’ Americans,” apparently modern genomics remains unknown to you. Over 95% of White Americans show zero African DNA markers; of the remaining few percent of White Americans, they show tiny amounts, of a similar scale. Altogether White Americans are less than one-tenth of one percent African, as far as DNA analysis can determine.

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  184. Bliss says:
    @D. K.
    The credibility of your list is evident from your claim that the German-American Babe Ruth is Black! As for our PC-addled, negrophilic, modern-day sportswriters, their opinions are barely worth noting.

    The claim that Pele is the best soccer player is dubious, but the overall complexion of world soccer is obvious. What West African soccer powerhouse can you name? An Argentinian of Italian ethnicity is the greatest player in the world today-- and perhaps the greatest ever.

    Blacks dominate in boxing? Who is the current world-heavyweight champion? Which ethnicity dominates the lighter weights? The Black heyday in boxing has come and gone, just like the Jewish heyday in basketball.

    Tiger Woods is one-quarter Black, one-quarter Thai, one-quarter Chinese, one-eighth Indian, and one-eighth Dutch. Regardless, he is just one golfer. Golf is dominated by Whites, as it always has been.

    The notion that Sabrina Williams is the greatest tennis player ever is almost as laughable as your claim that Babe Ruth was Black! Tennis is dominated by Whites, as it always has been.

    Race-car driving, of whatever variety, is dominated by Whites, as it always has been.

    Horse-racing is now dominated by Hispanics, because of their smaller size. Whites are still prominent, while Blacks are rare.

    Middle-distance runs are dominated by Whites; longer distances are dominated by a particular Kenyan tribe-- not by West Africans, who have no stamina in running!

    Weight-lifting is dominated by Whites-- as are discus, javelin, shot put, pentathlon, decathlon, triathlon, pole vaulting, wrestling, swimming, hockey, skiing, archery, biking, rock climbing, mountaineering, BMX, cross-training, luge, ski-jumping, cricket, Australian-rules football, rugby, and on and on.

    While Blacks are now dominant in football, Whites are dominant at its most-important position, quarterback, and almost all kickers, of whatever variety, are White.

    As for baseball, the greatest all-around players have been predominantly White. (Barry Bonds was a juicer, and no one would be talking about his being one of the greatest players ever, if he had not started juicing, after the 1997 season, any more than anyone would know who Sammy Sosa or Jose Conseco are, if they had not been perennial juicers! Almost all Dominican players, Black or Brown, are juicers.) Most of the greatest pitchers, even since 1947, have been White.

    West African-descended Blacks' greatest dominance is in basketball, along with sprints and long jumping in track & field.

    Overall, Whites dominate sports, except in the few that happen to be most popular, at present, in the United States: football, baseball (where American Blacks are lagging, but many Black Hispanics, a lot of them juicers from the Dominican Republic, are prominent, along with Hispanic mestizos and American Whites), and basketball.

    Regardless, he is just one golfer. Golf is dominated by Whites, as it always has been..

    Firstly, women’s golf aka LPGA is dominated by asian women (mostly korean). Secondly, domination does not mean fielding the great majority of players/competitors. The overwhelming majority of male golfers may be white but the greatest golfer of all time is black (take Jack Nicklaus’s word for it). Almost all the drivers in Formula 1 are white but the World Champion is black. The great majority of women tennis players are white but the greatest player ever is black.

    Middle-distance runs are dominated by Whites;

    Another stupid lie. Of the 18 world record holders in middle-distance running only 5 are white (all women):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-distance_running

    As for baseball, the greatest all-around players have been predominantly White.

    The majority of baseball players may be white but the top 3 players of all time, and 4 of the top 5 are black:

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/feature/video/_/id/8652210/espn-hall-100-ranking-all-greatest-mlb-players

    While Blacks are now dominant in football, Whites are dominant at its most-important position, quarterback, and almost all kickers, of whatever variety, are White.

    White domination of the quarterback position is doomed. The writing is on the wall. Black quarterbacks led their teams to the last 3 Superbowls. And in college football black quarterbacks dominate. There were no white quarterbacks in the last two college championships. That’s whats coming to the NFL. Neither of the two top quarterbacks (both Heisman Trophy winners) in this years NFL draft is white.

    And the best kicker in college football is hispanic…

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    Well, since your own racially unbiased opinion decides who is the best at any given sport, or position, and whomever you proclaim to be the best therefore dominates the entire sport for his race, regardless of the actual numbers, then, obviously, Blacks dominate everything!

    Here is what the numbers say about NFL quarterbacks, last season: http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr

    The Seahawks quarterback-- who reportedly has caught flack in the locker room for "not being Black enough!"-- was the top-rated Black quarterback for 2014, coming in at number 12. He famously threw the interception that cost the Seahawks a second-straight Super Bowl title-- but then, they never should have beaten Green Bay, anyway! (Who was that Green Bay player who took a knee, with about five minutes left, instead of running the ball back for would should have a game-clinching touchdown, in the NFL title game? Pure genius!) Be sure to let my surviving heirs (or theirs) know when that list becomes a sea of Black faces, won't you, please?

    So, do you have a timeline on when Blacks are going to dominate the kicking game in the NFL, the way that they are going to dominate the quarterback position? How about all of those other sports that I listed? I know that it was quite an incomplete list, off the top of my head. I left out gymnastics, diving, polo, lacrosse, field hockey, volleyball, and a lot of others. Are those all dominatedly, Blissfully, by Black men and women of West African descent, these days, too?

    , @D. K.
    By the way, read 'em and weep:

    http://www.cbssports.com/golf/rankings

    How many of those Asian babes that you were alluding to do you suppose could make the PGA tour?

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  185. anon • Disclaimer says:

    California is a much worse place than it was 50 years ago when I was a kid. I blame the leftist gringos for that. They drove out the middle class and replaced them with more leftists and many more Mexicans. I’m glad you like mexico and Mexicans. I do too but I don’t want to live there or with them. It is a foreign culture not to my likimv, to put a waspy splin on it. But I am forced to unless I want to move to Northern Idaho.
    Read some Victor Hanson if you want some first person illustrations of the Derb’s positions. The right side of the bell curve is not invading across the southern border. Visit the Central Valley for yourself.

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    I blame the leftist gringos for that. They drove out the middle class and replaced them with more leftists and many more Mexicans
     
    Blame greedy Republican gringos led by Ronald Reagan aka Union Buster aka Job Exporter aka Mr Amnesty. See the agenda of the GOP?

    The right side of the bell curve is not invading across the southern border
     
    Who did you expect to take jobs picking fruits etc? And who do you think immigrated here from europe if not mostly their losers? Ask Unz for the IQs of european immigrants to America.
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  186. D. K. says:
    @Truth

    There is no reason to believe that Asians in the north, east, and/or northeast portions of that super-size continent were as intelligent, ten or fifteen thousand years ago, as they are today.
     
    Why yes there is, it's called "The Flynn Effect.", and it states that 100 years ago, your average white man had roughly the same IQ as your average Nigerian tribesman today.

    I have no doubt that you believe that, Zippy. After all, that is why sub-Saharan Africa, today, is so vastly superior to Classical Greece and Rome, Renaissance Italy and England, and even early-Twentieth Century Europe, America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

    Seventy-five years ago, when my late father left rural Illinois, to enlist in the Coast Guard, as a 19-year-old, having grown up in poverty, in a very large family, in the midst of the Great Depression, which began when he was only eight, and which caused him to drop out of grade school, about four years later, to help his father tar roofs, after he had lost his regular job as a coal miner, the Coast Guard measured my father’s IQ at 140. “That’s nearly a genius!” the man told him.

    Now, in light of the Flynn Effect, Zippy, and especially in light of poverty’s supposedly withering effect on brain development in children, what do you suppose the chances of that IQ score were, back when White Americans were barely smarter than the average Black Nigerian is, today?

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    Seventy-five years ago, when my late father left rural Illinois, to enlist in the Coast Guard, as a 19-year-old, having grown up in poverty, in a very large family, in the midst of the Great Depression, which began when he was only eight, and which caused him to drop out of grade school...
     

    “Average” white men fought in the civil war. Check out a random letter home to Wisconsin or Massachusetts by some 16 year old (easy enough to find), and tell me you think the writer’s IQ is under 100.
     
    Mr. Unz, I'd like to thank you and your readers for teaching me the way high IQ people do things.

    For instance; I'd always had this ridiculous idea that the way one debated an internationally recognized scholarly thesis was by either, one, point by point scholarly deconstruction, or two, highlighting a similar work, peer reviewed and generally accepted, that made a conflicting argument.

    Now I know that one just posts anecdotes.
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  187. Bliss says:
    @anon
    California is a much worse place than it was 50 years ago when I was a kid. I blame the leftist gringos for that. They drove out the middle class and replaced them with more leftists and many more Mexicans. I'm glad you like mexico and Mexicans. I do too but I don't want to live there or with them. It is a foreign culture not to my likimv, to put a waspy splin on it. But I am forced to unless I want to move to Northern Idaho.
    Read some Victor Hanson if you want some first person illustrations of the Derb's positions. The right side of the bell curve is not invading across the southern border. Visit the Central Valley for yourself.

    I blame the leftist gringos for that. They drove out the middle class and replaced them with more leftists and many more Mexicans

    Blame greedy Republican gringos led by Ronald Reagan aka Union Buster aka Job Exporter aka Mr Amnesty. See the agenda of the GOP?

    The right side of the bell curve is not invading across the southern border

    Who did you expect to take jobs picking fruits etc? And who do you think immigrated here from europe if not mostly their losers? Ask Unz for the IQs of european immigrants to America.

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  188. syonredux says: • Website
    @Ron Unz

    I’ve never seen a study on Sicilian-American IQ.For that matter, I’ve never seen a breakdown on what percentage of Italian-Americans are of Sicilian descent.
     
    Well, Lynn's 2010 numbers for other Southern Italians aren't much higher at IQ=90-92, well below those of the Mexican Mestizos you're always complaining about. Lynn: "The only region in Italy where the IQ is as low as 89 is Sicily. In the other four regions of southern Italy the IQ lies between 90 and 92." And the absolutely overwhelming majority of Italian-Americans are from Southern Italy or Sicily. Here's a link to an Italian anthropology blogger summarizing and disputing Lynn's analysis:

    http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/10/richard-lynn-further-refuted.html

    Furthermore, a massive very solid early 1970s IQ study determined that Ireland's IQ was just 87, far below Mexican Mestizos and only a little above your pure Amerinds. Given all the negative things you often say about the Irish, I doubt you'll find this too surprising:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-revised/

    And since for geographical and religious reasons, the ethnic group most likely to intermarry with Italians were the Irish, wouldn't they have dragged down the poor Sicilians?

    Really, isn't it time for you to admit that assuming all of Lynn's silly IQ numbers represent purest genetic reality is more than a little doubtful? In exchange, I'll promise not to quote some random blogger that the Shakespeare's works were actually written by the Earl of Oxford or whomever.

    Finally, the central point made by my original Race/IQ article was that the facts are fully consistent with what I termed “the Weak IQ Hypothesis,” namely that a large fraction of tested IQ differences among populations are probably socio-economic in origin but that a residual genetic difference may certainly exist. The notion of a genetic/innate 4 point difference in IQ among the populations under discussion seems perfectly possible to me. But I think there’s just as much evidence and likelihood of similar-sized genetic/innate IQ differences between various white European populations, with various Nord peoples averaging perhaps a bit brighter than various Med peoples or that sort of thing. To argue for one case while totally denying the other is ridiculous. Whether such a hypothetical 4 point IQ difference is large or small depends entirely upon one’s perspective.

    Since we are bouncing all over the place, is this your position, Ron? That, once environmental factors are equalized, every population/race/ethnic group will have a mean IQ that is within 4 IQ points of very other population/race/ethnic group? So, Sub-Saharan Africans, under ideal environmental conditions, will have an IQ that is no more than 4 points below that of, say, Ashkenazi Jews?

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  189. D. K. says:
    @Bliss

    Regardless, he is just one golfer. Golf is dominated by Whites, as it always has been..
     
    Firstly, women's golf aka LPGA is dominated by asian women (mostly korean). Secondly, domination does not mean fielding the great majority of players/competitors. The overwhelming majority of male golfers may be white but the greatest golfer of all time is black (take Jack Nicklaus's word for it). Almost all the drivers in Formula 1 are white but the World Champion is black. The great majority of women tennis players are white but the greatest player ever is black.

    Middle-distance runs are dominated by Whites;
     
    Another stupid lie. Of the 18 world record holders in middle-distance running only 5 are white (all women):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-distance_running


    As for baseball, the greatest all-around players have been predominantly White.
     
    The majority of baseball players may be white but the top 3 players of all time, and 4 of the top 5 are black:

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/feature/video/_/id/8652210/espn-hall-100-ranking-all-greatest-mlb-players


    While Blacks are now dominant in football, Whites are dominant at its most-important position, quarterback, and almost all kickers, of whatever variety, are White.
     
    White domination of the quarterback position is doomed. The writing is on the wall. Black quarterbacks led their teams to the last 3 Superbowls. And in college football black quarterbacks dominate. There were no white quarterbacks in the last two college championships. That's whats coming to the NFL. Neither of the two top quarterbacks (both Heisman Trophy winners) in this years NFL draft is white.

    And the best kicker in college football is hispanic...

    Well, since your own racially unbiased opinion decides who is the best at any given sport, or position, and whomever you proclaim to be the best therefore dominates the entire sport for his race, regardless of the actual numbers, then, obviously, Blacks dominate everything!

    Here is what the numbers say about NFL quarterbacks, last season: http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr

    The Seahawks quarterback– who reportedly has caught flack in the locker room for “not being Black enough!”– was the top-rated Black quarterback for 2014, coming in at number 12. He famously threw the interception that cost the Seahawks a second-straight Super Bowl title– but then, they never should have beaten Green Bay, anyway! (Who was that Green Bay player who took a knee, with about five minutes left, instead of running the ball back for would should have a game-clinching touchdown, in the NFL title game? Pure genius!) Be sure to let my surviving heirs (or theirs) know when that list becomes a sea of Black faces, won’t you, please?

    So, do you have a timeline on when Blacks are going to dominate the kicking game in the NFL, the way that they are going to dominate the quarterback position? How about all of those other sports that I listed? I know that it was quite an incomplete list, off the top of my head. I left out gymnastics, diving, polo, lacrosse, field hockey, volleyball, and a lot of others. Are those all dominatedly, Blissfully, by Black men and women of West African descent, these days, too?

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  190. @Toddy Cat
    I'll grant Fred this much; if your country is destined to be overrun with an alien race, you could do worse than Mexicans. I'd by far rather live in Mexico than Nigeria or Saudi Arabia, or some nightmare combination of the two, which is what Europe is looking at. But I'd rather live in the United States. Thanks to guys like Fred, I don't get that option.

    Fred's attitude seems to be that, well, letting Mexicans in was a mistake, but now that we've let them in, we might as well go the whole hog and let more in, which is somewhat like saying that those first four shots of tequila were a mistake, but now that you've done it, you might just as well go ahead and drink the whole quart. I guess this is what passes for logic down where Fred lives.

    Well, Fred, you and Ron Unz are almost certainly going to get the future you want. I hope that it works out the way you think it will, I really do, because there's no going back once it's done. Too bad, the U.S. and Mexico were both nice countries once. I have a feeling Meximerica will combine the worst features of both...

    Hispanics can be useful for creating ‘buffer zones’ between whites and blacks. Political cards played right, policy could even enhance this ‘naturally’ occurring effect. Ordinarily this wouldn’t be worth mentioning, but when you’re left clutching at straws this one’s firmer than most others.

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  191. syonredux says: • Website
    @AP

    No magic, science. Or are you one of those people that doesn’t believe in IQ tests?

    I believe in IQ tests, dear fellow.I’m just far from certain that Jensen (GOM that he was) was correct in this instance. Arguments from authority have no place in science.
     

    No, but this conversation isn't a peer-reviewed scientific paper. Arguments from authority have a place here just as they do in many instances in every life. If a medical specialist in a field beyond my competence recommends a procedure I might get a second opinion from another specialist, but I won't argue with him. But be that as it may, here's a link and brief summary of Jensen's conclusions:

    http://humanvarieties.org/2013/09/21/jensen-effect-on-racial-iq-differences-and-gpa-controlling-for-ses-in-the-nlsy79-and-nlsy97/

    One particular feature is the BH gap, or black-hispanic gap. In both datasets, the gap increases after SES partialled out. We note the same thing happening at the subtest level, where the BH gap widens for all subtests when SES effect is removed. With regard to the widening black-hispanic gap when controlling for parental SES, the likely reason for this outcome is that hispanic parental education averages 1 or 2 years less than blacks, and their family income was about the same. At the same time, while controlling for SES reduces very little the black-white difference, it reduces the hispanic-white difference drastically. This could be compared with Jensen’s (1973, pp. 306-311) earlier analysis in which he compares blacks, whites and mexicans on PPVT (a caricature of culture loaded or biased test) and Raven (measuring essentially relation eduction, the purest form of Spearman’s g) scores. When equating for Raven, the mexicans scored below the blacks and blacks below the whites on PPVT. At the same time, when equating for PPVT score, blacks scored below whites, and hispanics scored very lightly above whites on Raven. Jensen interpreted this finding as to say that the mexican-white IQ difference was entirely due to socio-economic and/or cultural factors while the black-white IQ difference was due to a mix of genetic and environmental differences. The fact that hispanics were more ‘culturally’ deprived than blacks while scoring higher in cognitive tests is exactly what I was able to find in both NLSY79 and NLSY97. This is all the more interesting since g*d correlations between blacks and whites were not affected by SES but when it comes to hispanics (against either blacks or whites), SES may make a difference.


    You don’t think Mexican whites, mestizos and Amerinds live in dramatically different environments?

    Different environments, sure.I’m not quite so certain that Mexican Euros and Mestizos dwell in “dramatically” dichotomous circumstances, though.
     

    White Mexicans are the country's upper to upper middle classes. They often live in gated communities, enjoy good schools, travel to Europe, etc. etc. Many mestizos live like Sicilian peasants did 100 years ago; others have moved to urban slums comparable, I suppose, the 19th century tenement housing. Many but probably a minority have made it into the middle classes. What were the IQs of Italian and Irish peasants who moved to big American cities and lived in slums 100 years ago? Mexican Amerinds live in the countryside; many don't even speak Spanish, or speak it very poorly. The differences in lifestyles are quite stark.

    I agree with you that it is unfortunate that more and better studies aren't being made on IQ differences. The lack of studies seems to be based on PC, with an underlying premise that people with low IQs are morally worth "less" than those with high IQs when indeed such people are as deserving of living dignified lives just as does anyone else. Knowing group differences could help in formulating more effective social and educational policies than ones falsely assuming (if it is a false assumption) that everyone has equal intellectual potential.

    OK, let’s say that that Jensen was right.He was a brilliant man after all, and he was right about a great many things.

    So, Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos have the genetic potential to reach a mean IQ of 100.How long is it going to take? How long will it take for Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos to reach a mean IQ of 100 in the USA? Will they attain it by 2060?2080? 2047?

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    • Replies: @AP

    So, Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos have the genetic potential to reach a mean IQ of 100.How long is it going to take? How long will it take for Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos to reach a mean IQ of 100 in the USA? Will they attain it by 2060?2080? 2047?
     
    It would take a few generations, at least. And America isn't as equipped to to raise them to their potential as it did with the Sicilian and Irish peasants - it is much less aggressive in terms of assimilating minorities due to a less pro-American national ideology, plus it has allowed so many to come all at once. These are problems with America, not with the immigrants.
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  192. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @syonredux
    OK, let's say that that Jensen was right.He was a brilliant man after all, and he was right about a great many things.


    So, Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos have the genetic potential to reach a mean IQ of 100.How long is it going to take? How long will it take for Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos to reach a mean IQ of 100 in the USA? Will they attain it by 2060?2080? 2047?

    So, Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos have the genetic potential to reach a mean IQ of 100.How long is it going to take? How long will it take for Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos to reach a mean IQ of 100 in the USA? Will they attain it by 2060?2080? 2047?

    It would take a few generations, at least. And America isn’t as equipped to to raise them to their potential as it did with the Sicilian and Irish peasants – it is much less aggressive in terms of assimilating minorities due to a less pro-American national ideology, plus it has allowed so many to come all at once. These are problems with America, not with the immigrants.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    It would take a few generations, at least.
     
    which means what? By a few, do you mean three? So, assuming 30 years per generation, 90 years=2105? So, you are saying that Hispanic Mestizos and Amerinds won't attain a mean IQ of 100 until the early 22nd century?

    Grim news indeed.
    , @syonredux

    And America isn’t as equipped to to raise them to their potential as it did with the Sicilian and Irish peasants – it is much less aggressive in terms of assimilating minorities due to a less pro-American national ideology, plus it has allowed so many to come all at once. These are problems with America, not with the immigrants.
     
    Which is another problem that Ron tends to elide.The America of 2015 is not the America of 1915.That America insisted on Americanizing her people.Our leaders were not craven Hispanophiles like JEB Bush.Instead, we had leaders like Theodore Roosevelt:

    There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all.”

    “This is just as true of the man who puts “native” before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen. Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul. Our allegiance must be purely to the United States. We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance.”

    “But if he is heartily and singly loyal to this Republic, then no matter where he was born, he is just as good an American as any one else.”

    “The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English- Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian- Americans, or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality than with the other citizens of the American Republic.”

    “The men who do not become Americans and nothing else are hyphenated Americans; and there ought to be no room for them in this country. The man who calls himself an American citizen and who yet shows by his actions that he is primarily the citizen of a foreign land, plays a thoroughly mischievous part in the life of our body politic. He has no place here; and the sooner he returns to the land to which he feels his real heart-allegiance, the better it will be for every good American.”

    Theodore Roosevelt
    Address to the Knights of Columbus
    New York City- October 12th, 1915
     
    For a practical demonstration of this mindset, during the 1917-18 period, America waged a Kulturkampf against German culture in America.



    Sadly, attitudes are quite different now.Horace Kallen's "multicultural" ideas have won the day....
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  193. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @D. K.
    The proof of the pudding is in the eating; the proof of our intelligence is in the testing. Impoverished North Koreans do not test like Amerindian Mexicans who are living "la vida loca" in El Norte.

    Amerindians are not East, North, and/or Northeast Asians. Ten to fifteen thousand years of separate evolution, in vastly different environments, intervened to change Asian expatriates into "Native Americans." The fact that the latter evolved out of the former does not make them the same, now; it has made them different races-- just as I, as someone ultimately descended from expatriates from Africa, in at least two outmigrations, am not of the same race as Zippy, our Ashanti warrior in Kuwait.

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating; the proof of our intelligence is in the testing. Impoverished North Koreans do not test like Amerindian Mexicans who are living “la vida loca” in El Norte.

    Communist societies are sort of modern despite impoverishment and do have generations of good schools.

    The fact that the latter evolved out of the former does not make them the same, now; it has made them different races– just as I, as someone ultimately descended from expatriates from Africa, in at least two outmigrations, am not of the same race as Zippy, our Ashanti warrior in Kuwait.

    Humans left Africa about 60,000 years ago, and those that left interbreed with Neanderthals who contributed 2-4% to their genetic structure.

    Amerind ancestors left Asia only 15,000 years ago, carrying with them the same Neanderthal mix that they share with other Asians (and Caucasians – remember Amerinds have some Caucasian ancestry also) and that Africans lack. So they are much, much closer to Asians than are Africans. They have the same backgrounds and are separated by only 1/4 as much time.

    Ron – any adoption studies involving Native Americans and Mexicans?

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    I am not denying that Amerindians are more closely related to Asians than to sub-Saharan Africans, since the Amerindians are much more recently descended from Asians than from Africans. But, as we now know, fifteen thousand years can be a very long period of time, in evolutionary terms. There are important mutations that are undetectable, a fraction of that time span ago, that now are overwhelmingly dominant among all non-sub-Saharan populations. Just compare the typical Japanese looks to those of a full-blooded American Indian. If physical features can diverge that much, in ten to fifteen thousand years of separate evolution, then how those peoples' respective brains work can change quite significantly, too-- including their respective IQ distributions.
    , @Ron Unz

    Ron – any adoption studies involving Native Americans and Mexicans?
     
    None that I'm aware of, at least of statistical significance.

    However, in my original article I pointed out that an examination of Wordsum-IQ scores indicates that during just the two decades from the 1980s to the 2000s, almost *two-thirds* of the IQ gap between American-born Mex-Ams and whites disappeared, a truly remarkable result. Furthermore, the values provided by the large NLSY-97 dataset are fully consistent with these numbers. Obviously, GSS Wordsum isn't exactly an IQ test, but it has been found to correlate at 0.71 with IQ, being roughly as good as the old-style SAT for example.

    http://www.unz.com/article/race-iq-and-wealth/#implications-for-the-american-immigration-debate

    It's perfectly possible that the underlying genetic/innate IQ of Mex-Ams might be slightly below that of whites, which would further underscore the exceptional speed at which Mex-Ams appear to be converging to their true potential IQ, apparently far, far faster than did most of the Southern or Eastern European immigrants of 100 years ago. Therefore, I think the suggestion the process might take "a few generations" is very much on the pessimistic side.

    On an empirical level, I live in Silicon Valley, which is almost one-third Hispanic and heavily immigrant. As near as I can tell, they mostly seem to be doing fine, following much the same blue-collar trajectory as numerous other immigrant groups of the past, such as the Irish, the Italians, and the Slavs.
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  194. joe webb says:

    here is one from American Renaissance a day or two ago.

    How anybody can expect mexicans to evolve more and thicker gray matter is farly fetched.

    Since these brain scans can identify the amounts of gray matter…size matters dept…just start scanning mexers and blacks and anybody else and stop the endless chatter about “what if?”

    We already know that IQ has about a .5 correlation with brain size. That was quantity. Now we can get at quality. The number crunching that Ron and others do is good, but the economy of simple brain scans compared to large studies of IQ and the genotypic and phenotypic arguments are very difficult or methodologically questionable, respectively.

    On top of that Mestizos are not very good looking. I like to look at attractive people. Amerindians are even uglier. compared to what…. yes….guess
    Joe Webb

    Am Ren news:
    Neuroanatomical Correlates of the Income-Achievement Gap

    Psychological Science, April 20, 2015

    Abstract

    In the United States, the difference in academic achievement between higher- and lower-income students (i.e., the income-achievement gap) is substantial and growing. In the research reported here, we investigated neuroanatomical correlates of this gap in adolescents (N = 58) in whom academic achievement was measured by statewide standardized testing. Cortical gray-matter volume was significantly greater in students from higher-income backgrounds (n = 35) than in students from lower-income backgrounds (n = 23), but cortical white-matter volume and total cortical surface area did not differ significantly between groups. Cortical thickness in all lobes of the brain was greater in students from higher-income than lower-income backgrounds. Greater cortical thickness, particularly in temporal and occipital lobes, was associated with better test performance. These results represent the first evidence that cortical thickness in higher- and lower-income students differs across broad swaths of the brain and that cortical thickness is related to scores on academic-achievement tests.

    Original Article

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  195. D. K. says:
    @Ron Unz

    I’ve never seen a study on Sicilian-American IQ.For that matter, I’ve never seen a breakdown on what percentage of Italian-Americans are of Sicilian descent.
     
    Well, Lynn's 2010 numbers for other Southern Italians aren't much higher at IQ=90-92, well below those of the Mexican Mestizos you're always complaining about. Lynn: "The only region in Italy where the IQ is as low as 89 is Sicily. In the other four regions of southern Italy the IQ lies between 90 and 92." And the absolutely overwhelming majority of Italian-Americans are from Southern Italy or Sicily. Here's a link to an Italian anthropology blogger summarizing and disputing Lynn's analysis:

    http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/10/richard-lynn-further-refuted.html

    Furthermore, a massive very solid early 1970s IQ study determined that Ireland's IQ was just 87, far below Mexican Mestizos and only a little above your pure Amerinds. Given all the negative things you often say about the Irish, I doubt you'll find this too surprising:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-revised/

    And since for geographical and religious reasons, the ethnic group most likely to intermarry with Italians were the Irish, wouldn't they have dragged down the poor Sicilians?

    Really, isn't it time for you to admit that assuming all of Lynn's silly IQ numbers represent purest genetic reality is more than a little doubtful? In exchange, I'll promise not to quote some random blogger that the Shakespeare's works were actually written by the Earl of Oxford or whomever.

    Where do the IQ numbers originate? Is not the answer usually “in grade-school classrooms, from ratio-IQ tests given to captive audiences of children,” rather than from random samples of adults taking deviation-IQ tests? Has it ever occurred to anyone (other than me) that ten-year-old kids and twenty-five-year-old adults might produce different results, and that the results from young adults would be far-more germane to social outcomes, like lifetime earnings and social behaviors?

    Is it just possible that “the Irish Race,” as my English ancestors used to condescendingly refer to my Irish ancestors, back in the day, happens to mature more slowly than certain other demographic groups, and that relative immaturity is what is being captured in their purported IQ distribution?

    Are differential maturation rates, due to both nutrition and evolution, not a more plausible explanation for the famous Flynn Effect than the notion that even civilized humanity, over the course of recorded history, has been getting smarter and smarter, generation after generation, at a head-swivelling rate? Do smart people really believe that the IQ distribution in Pericles’ Athens would have put those accomplished Greeks overwhelmingly in the double-digit IQ range, when compared to the United States of today? I, for one, certainly do not believe it!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ron Unz

    Where do the IQ numbers originate?...Are differential maturation rates, due to both nutrition and evolution, not a more plausible explanation for the famous Flynn Effect than the notion that even civilized humanity, over the course of recorded history, has been getting smarter and smarter, generation after generation, at a head-swivelling rate?
     
    Well, look. Psychometricians and other specialists have been debating the precise causes and meaning of the Flynn Effect for decades, and to my mind the question is not yet settled. Your suggestion is certainly among the several regularly considered.

    However, given the massive size and exceptional quality of the 1972 Irish study finding IQ=87, I think you can make a case it's about the most solidly established IQ result presented in all of Lynn's IQ books or anywhere else. Bear in mind also that Ireland is part of the British Isles, the Irish speak English, and they are probably genetically and culturally closer to the "Anglo-Saxons" than any other people on earth, absolutely minimizing any sort of subtle cultural or language testing bias. Perhaps the test results were nonsense for the reasons you give, but then you should probably also discard the results of just about every other IQ study ever done.

    http://www.ronunz.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/IrishIQ-HBDChick.pdf
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  196. syonredux says: • Website
    @AP

    So, Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos have the genetic potential to reach a mean IQ of 100.How long is it going to take? How long will it take for Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos to reach a mean IQ of 100 in the USA? Will they attain it by 2060?2080? 2047?
     
    It would take a few generations, at least. And America isn't as equipped to to raise them to their potential as it did with the Sicilian and Irish peasants - it is much less aggressive in terms of assimilating minorities due to a less pro-American national ideology, plus it has allowed so many to come all at once. These are problems with America, not with the immigrants.

    It would take a few generations, at least.

    which means what? By a few, do you mean three? So, assuming 30 years per generation, 90 years=2105? So, you are saying that Hispanic Mestizos and Amerinds won’t attain a mean IQ of 100 until the early 22nd century?

    Grim news indeed.

    Read More
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  197. D. K. says:
    @AP

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating; the proof of our intelligence is in the testing. Impoverished North Koreans do not test like Amerindian Mexicans who are living “la vida loca” in El Norte.
     
    Communist societies are sort of modern despite impoverishment and do have generations of good schools.

    The fact that the latter evolved out of the former does not make them the same, now; it has made them different races– just as I, as someone ultimately descended from expatriates from Africa, in at least two outmigrations, am not of the same race as Zippy, our Ashanti warrior in Kuwait.

     

    Humans left Africa about 60,000 years ago, and those that left interbreed with Neanderthals who contributed 2-4% to their genetic structure.

    Amerind ancestors left Asia only 15,000 years ago, carrying with them the same Neanderthal mix that they share with other Asians (and Caucasians - remember Amerinds have some Caucasian ancestry also) and that Africans lack. So they are much, much closer to Asians than are Africans. They have the same backgrounds and are separated by only 1/4 as much time.

    Ron - any adoption studies involving Native Americans and Mexicans?

    I am not denying that Amerindians are more closely related to Asians than to sub-Saharan Africans, since the Amerindians are much more recently descended from Asians than from Africans. But, as we now know, fifteen thousand years can be a very long period of time, in evolutionary terms. There are important mutations that are undetectable, a fraction of that time span ago, that now are overwhelmingly dominant among all non-sub-Saharan populations. Just compare the typical Japanese looks to those of a full-blooded American Indian. If physical features can diverge that much, in ten to fifteen thousand years of separate evolution, then how those peoples’ respective brains work can change quite significantly, too– including their respective IQ distributions.

    Read More
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  198. Ron Unz says:
    @D. K.
    Where do the IQ numbers originate? Is not the answer usually "in grade-school classrooms, from ratio-IQ tests given to captive audiences of children," rather than from random samples of adults taking deviation-IQ tests? Has it ever occurred to anyone (other than me) that ten-year-old kids and twenty-five-year-old adults might produce different results, and that the results from young adults would be far-more germane to social outcomes, like lifetime earnings and social behaviors?

    Is it just possible that "the Irish Race," as my English ancestors used to condescendingly refer to my Irish ancestors, back in the day, happens to mature more slowly than certain other demographic groups, and that relative immaturity is what is being captured in their purported IQ distribution?

    Are differential maturation rates, due to both nutrition and evolution, not a more plausible explanation for the famous Flynn Effect than the notion that even civilized humanity, over the course of recorded history, has been getting smarter and smarter, generation after generation, at a head-swivelling rate? Do smart people really believe that the IQ distribution in Pericles' Athens would have put those accomplished Greeks overwhelmingly in the double-digit IQ range, when compared to the United States of today? I, for one, certainly do not believe it!

    Where do the IQ numbers originate?…Are differential maturation rates, due to both nutrition and evolution, not a more plausible explanation for the famous Flynn Effect than the notion that even civilized humanity, over the course of recorded history, has been getting smarter and smarter, generation after generation, at a head-swivelling rate?

    Well, look. Psychometricians and other specialists have been debating the precise causes and meaning of the Flynn Effect for decades, and to my mind the question is not yet settled. Your suggestion is certainly among the several regularly considered.

    However, given the massive size and exceptional quality of the 1972 Irish study finding IQ=87, I think you can make a case it’s about the most solidly established IQ result presented in all of Lynn’s IQ books or anywhere else. Bear in mind also that Ireland is part of the British Isles, the Irish speak English, and they are probably genetically and culturally closer to the “Anglo-Saxons” than any other people on earth, absolutely minimizing any sort of subtle cultural or language testing bias. Perhaps the test results were nonsense for the reasons you give, but then you should probably also discard the results of just about every other IQ study ever done.

    http://www.ronunz.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/IrishIQ-HBDChick.pdf

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    There are IQ studies, however, that have been done of just young adults: IQ testing matured, a century ago, precisely because the Great War made sorting young men into their optimal military roles a high national priority, in the most advanced and powerful nations on Earth, at that time! The world's militaries continue this work, and obviously possess data that should be far more valuable than knowing whether immature Irish preteens test as well, at a given age point, than their English peers.
    , @Truth

    However, given the massive size and exceptional quality of the 1972 Irish study finding IQ=87, I think you can make a case it’s about the most solidly established IQ result presented in all of Lynn’s IQ books or anywhere else. Perhaps the test results were nonsense for the reasons you give, but then you should probably also discard the results of just about every other IQ study ever done.
     
    Soy it lahWOUUD you facking wankas, I'm block and I'm prahWOUUD!
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  199. Marty says:
    @Truth

    There is no reason to believe that Asians in the north, east, and/or northeast portions of that super-size continent were as intelligent, ten or fifteen thousand years ago, as they are today.
     
    Why yes there is, it's called "The Flynn Effect.", and it states that 100 years ago, your average white man had roughly the same IQ as your average Nigerian tribesman today.

    “Average” white men fought in the civil war. Check out a random letter home to Wisconsin or Massachusetts by some 16 year old (easy enough to find), and tell me you think the writer’s IQ is under 100.

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  200. Ron Unz says:
    @AP

    The proof of the pudding is in the eating; the proof of our intelligence is in the testing. Impoverished North Koreans do not test like Amerindian Mexicans who are living “la vida loca” in El Norte.
     
    Communist societies are sort of modern despite impoverishment and do have generations of good schools.

    The fact that the latter evolved out of the former does not make them the same, now; it has made them different races– just as I, as someone ultimately descended from expatriates from Africa, in at least two outmigrations, am not of the same race as Zippy, our Ashanti warrior in Kuwait.

     

    Humans left Africa about 60,000 years ago, and those that left interbreed with Neanderthals who contributed 2-4% to their genetic structure.

    Amerind ancestors left Asia only 15,000 years ago, carrying with them the same Neanderthal mix that they share with other Asians (and Caucasians - remember Amerinds have some Caucasian ancestry also) and that Africans lack. So they are much, much closer to Asians than are Africans. They have the same backgrounds and are separated by only 1/4 as much time.

    Ron - any adoption studies involving Native Americans and Mexicans?

    Ron – any adoption studies involving Native Americans and Mexicans?

    None that I’m aware of, at least of statistical significance.

    However, in my original article I pointed out that an examination of Wordsum-IQ scores indicates that during just the two decades from the 1980s to the 2000s, almost *two-thirds* of the IQ gap between American-born Mex-Ams and whites disappeared, a truly remarkable result. Furthermore, the values provided by the large NLSY-97 dataset are fully consistent with these numbers. Obviously, GSS Wordsum isn’t exactly an IQ test, but it has been found to correlate at 0.71 with IQ, being roughly as good as the old-style SAT for example.

    http://www.unz.com/article/race-iq-and-wealth/#implications-for-the-american-immigration-debate

    It’s perfectly possible that the underlying genetic/innate IQ of Mex-Ams might be slightly below that of whites, which would further underscore the exceptional speed at which Mex-Ams appear to be converging to their true potential IQ, apparently far, far faster than did most of the Southern or Eastern European immigrants of 100 years ago. Therefore, I think the suggestion the process might take “a few generations” is very much on the pessimistic side.

    On an empirical level, I live in Silicon Valley, which is almost one-third Hispanic and heavily immigrant. As near as I can tell, they mostly seem to be doing fine, following much the same blue-collar trajectory as numerous other immigrant groups of the past, such as the Irish, the Italians, and the Slavs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    However, in my original article I pointed out that an examination of Wordsum-IQ scores indicates that during just the two decades from the 1980s to the 2000s, almost *two-thirds* of the IQ gap between American-born Mex-Ams and whites disappeared, a truly remarkable result.
     
    Has that been replicated in actual IQ tests?What's your estimate for the Hispanic American IQ?Do you feel that this analysis is wrong:

    Here’s the best estimate I’ve yet seen: A 2001 meta-analysis of 39 studies covering a total 5,696,519 individuals in America (aged 14 and above) came up with an overall difference of 0.72 standard deviations in g (the “general factor” in cognitive ability) between “Anglo” whites and Hispanics. The 95% confidence range of the studies ran from .60 to .88 standard deviations, so there’s not a huge amount of disagreement among the studies.

    One standard deviation equals 15 IQ points, so that’s a gap of 10.8 IQ points, or an IQ of 89 on the Lynn-Vanhanen scale where white Americans equal 100. That would imply the average Hispanic would fall at the 24th percentile of the white IQ distribution. This inequality gets worse at higher IQs Assuming a normal distribution, 4.8% of whites would fall above 125 IQ versus only 0.9% of Hispanics, which explains why Hispanics are given ethnic preferences in prestige college admissions.

     

    If so, why?

    It’s perfectly possible that the underlying genetic/innate IQ of Mex-Ams might be slightly below that of whites,
     
    How far is "slightly?" Four points?

    Therefore, I think the suggestion the process might take “a few generations” is very much on the pessimistic side.
     
    Then what's your projection? One generation? Will the gap be closed by, say, 2045?
    , @AP
    Thank you for the clarification. This is good news.

    I lived in Chicago, the only city that has large Mexican, Puerto Rican, and African-American neighborhoods (plus various ethnic white areas of both old immigrants and new ones). Mexican areas had a similar reputation to working-class white ones. They were certainly rougher than gentrified ones, or middle class suburbia, but a student or artist type without much money could live in a Mexican neighborhood such as Pilsen and feel relatively safe. Mexicans had a reputation as hard workers. There was a lot of intermarriage between Mexicans and working class white Catholics.
    , @syonredux

    On an empirical level, I live in Silicon Valley, which is almost one-third Hispanic and heavily immigrant.
     
    Personal observation time? Hey, I can play that.When I was in High School, the Hispanic Mestizo/Amerind students were all clustered near the academic bottom with the Blacks.
    When I was a student at Berkeley, the pattern repeated itself.The top kids in every class were Anglo White and East Asian, while the Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds clustered at the bottom.Indeed, that was even true in the "Chicano Culture*" class that I took.Now that I'm a teacher, things have stayed pretty much the same.The worst papers are nearly always written by Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds and Blacks.

    As near as I can tell, they mostly seem to be doing fine,
     
    Depends on how you define "fine," Ron

    following much the same blue-collar trajectory as numerous other immigrant groups of the past, such as the Irish, the Italians, and the Slavs.
     
    Well, to cite only the most obvious point, the Irish took a lot longer to climb the ladder of success than did the Italians.So, are Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos more like the Irish or are they more like the Italians?Or, horrors, maybe they're different from both?





    *The class was built around the thesis that White Anglos ran CA as an Apartheid State.We spent endless hours discussing the Zoot Suit Riots, etc. The Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds were very receptive to the idea....
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  201. D. K. says:
    @Ron Unz

    Where do the IQ numbers originate?...Are differential maturation rates, due to both nutrition and evolution, not a more plausible explanation for the famous Flynn Effect than the notion that even civilized humanity, over the course of recorded history, has been getting smarter and smarter, generation after generation, at a head-swivelling rate?
     
    Well, look. Psychometricians and other specialists have been debating the precise causes and meaning of the Flynn Effect for decades, and to my mind the question is not yet settled. Your suggestion is certainly among the several regularly considered.

    However, given the massive size and exceptional quality of the 1972 Irish study finding IQ=87, I think you can make a case it's about the most solidly established IQ result presented in all of Lynn's IQ books or anywhere else. Bear in mind also that Ireland is part of the British Isles, the Irish speak English, and they are probably genetically and culturally closer to the "Anglo-Saxons" than any other people on earth, absolutely minimizing any sort of subtle cultural or language testing bias. Perhaps the test results were nonsense for the reasons you give, but then you should probably also discard the results of just about every other IQ study ever done.

    http://www.ronunz.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/IrishIQ-HBDChick.pdf

    There are IQ studies, however, that have been done of just young adults: IQ testing matured, a century ago, precisely because the Great War made sorting young men into their optimal military roles a high national priority, in the most advanced and powerful nations on Earth, at that time! The world’s militaries continue this work, and obviously possess data that should be far more valuable than knowing whether immature Irish preteens test as well, at a given age point, than their English peers.

    Read More
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  202. syonredux says: • Website
    @Ron Unz

    Ron – any adoption studies involving Native Americans and Mexicans?
     
    None that I'm aware of, at least of statistical significance.

    However, in my original article I pointed out that an examination of Wordsum-IQ scores indicates that during just the two decades from the 1980s to the 2000s, almost *two-thirds* of the IQ gap between American-born Mex-Ams and whites disappeared, a truly remarkable result. Furthermore, the values provided by the large NLSY-97 dataset are fully consistent with these numbers. Obviously, GSS Wordsum isn't exactly an IQ test, but it has been found to correlate at 0.71 with IQ, being roughly as good as the old-style SAT for example.

    http://www.unz.com/article/race-iq-and-wealth/#implications-for-the-american-immigration-debate

    It's perfectly possible that the underlying genetic/innate IQ of Mex-Ams might be slightly below that of whites, which would further underscore the exceptional speed at which Mex-Ams appear to be converging to their true potential IQ, apparently far, far faster than did most of the Southern or Eastern European immigrants of 100 years ago. Therefore, I think the suggestion the process might take "a few generations" is very much on the pessimistic side.

    On an empirical level, I live in Silicon Valley, which is almost one-third Hispanic and heavily immigrant. As near as I can tell, they mostly seem to be doing fine, following much the same blue-collar trajectory as numerous other immigrant groups of the past, such as the Irish, the Italians, and the Slavs.

    However, in my original article I pointed out that an examination of Wordsum-IQ scores indicates that during just the two decades from the 1980s to the 2000s, almost *two-thirds* of the IQ gap between American-born Mex-Ams and whites disappeared, a truly remarkable result.

    Has that been replicated in actual IQ tests?What’s your estimate for the Hispanic American IQ?Do you feel that this analysis is wrong:

    Here’s the best estimate I’ve yet seen: A 2001 meta-analysis of 39 studies covering a total 5,696,519 individuals in America (aged 14 and above) came up with an overall difference of 0.72 standard deviations in g (the “general factor” in cognitive ability) between “Anglo” whites and Hispanics. The 95% confidence range of the studies ran from .60 to .88 standard deviations, so there’s not a huge amount of disagreement among the studies.

    One standard deviation equals 15 IQ points, so that’s a gap of 10.8 IQ points, or an IQ of 89 on the Lynn-Vanhanen scale where white Americans equal 100. That would imply the average Hispanic would fall at the 24th percentile of the white IQ distribution. This inequality gets worse at higher IQs Assuming a normal distribution, 4.8% of whites would fall above 125 IQ versus only 0.9% of Hispanics, which explains why Hispanics are given ethnic preferences in prestige college admissions.

    If so, why?

    It’s perfectly possible that the underlying genetic/innate IQ of Mex-Ams might be slightly below that of whites,

    How far is “slightly?” Four points?

    Therefore, I think the suggestion the process might take “a few generations” is very much on the pessimistic side.

    Then what’s your projection? One generation? Will the gap be closed by, say, 2045?

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  203. D. K. says:
    @Bliss

    Regardless, he is just one golfer. Golf is dominated by Whites, as it always has been..
     
    Firstly, women's golf aka LPGA is dominated by asian women (mostly korean). Secondly, domination does not mean fielding the great majority of players/competitors. The overwhelming majority of male golfers may be white but the greatest golfer of all time is black (take Jack Nicklaus's word for it). Almost all the drivers in Formula 1 are white but the World Champion is black. The great majority of women tennis players are white but the greatest player ever is black.

    Middle-distance runs are dominated by Whites;
     
    Another stupid lie. Of the 18 world record holders in middle-distance running only 5 are white (all women):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-distance_running


    As for baseball, the greatest all-around players have been predominantly White.
     
    The majority of baseball players may be white but the top 3 players of all time, and 4 of the top 5 are black:

    http://espn.go.com/mlb/feature/video/_/id/8652210/espn-hall-100-ranking-all-greatest-mlb-players


    While Blacks are now dominant in football, Whites are dominant at its most-important position, quarterback, and almost all kickers, of whatever variety, are White.
     
    White domination of the quarterback position is doomed. The writing is on the wall. Black quarterbacks led their teams to the last 3 Superbowls. And in college football black quarterbacks dominate. There were no white quarterbacks in the last two college championships. That's whats coming to the NFL. Neither of the two top quarterbacks (both Heisman Trophy winners) in this years NFL draft is white.

    And the best kicker in college football is hispanic...

    By the way, read ‘em and weep:

    http://www.cbssports.com/golf/rankings

    How many of those Asian babes that you were alluding to do you suppose could make the PGA tour?

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  204. D. K. says:

    N.B.: I have been suffering from blurred vision in my right eye, today, and it has been wreaking havoc on my already sub-optimal typing (not to mention proof-reading) skills, here on my iPad’s virtual keyboard! Mea maxima culpa!!!

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  205. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @Ron Unz

    Ron – any adoption studies involving Native Americans and Mexicans?
     
    None that I'm aware of, at least of statistical significance.

    However, in my original article I pointed out that an examination of Wordsum-IQ scores indicates that during just the two decades from the 1980s to the 2000s, almost *two-thirds* of the IQ gap between American-born Mex-Ams and whites disappeared, a truly remarkable result. Furthermore, the values provided by the large NLSY-97 dataset are fully consistent with these numbers. Obviously, GSS Wordsum isn't exactly an IQ test, but it has been found to correlate at 0.71 with IQ, being roughly as good as the old-style SAT for example.

    http://www.unz.com/article/race-iq-and-wealth/#implications-for-the-american-immigration-debate

    It's perfectly possible that the underlying genetic/innate IQ of Mex-Ams might be slightly below that of whites, which would further underscore the exceptional speed at which Mex-Ams appear to be converging to their true potential IQ, apparently far, far faster than did most of the Southern or Eastern European immigrants of 100 years ago. Therefore, I think the suggestion the process might take "a few generations" is very much on the pessimistic side.

    On an empirical level, I live in Silicon Valley, which is almost one-third Hispanic and heavily immigrant. As near as I can tell, they mostly seem to be doing fine, following much the same blue-collar trajectory as numerous other immigrant groups of the past, such as the Irish, the Italians, and the Slavs.

    Thank you for the clarification. This is good news.

    I lived in Chicago, the only city that has large Mexican, Puerto Rican, and African-American neighborhoods (plus various ethnic white areas of both old immigrants and new ones). Mexican areas had a similar reputation to working-class white ones. They were certainly rougher than gentrified ones, or middle class suburbia, but a student or artist type without much money could live in a Mexican neighborhood such as Pilsen and feel relatively safe. Mexicans had a reputation as hard workers. There was a lot of intermarriage between Mexicans and working class white Catholics.

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    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    Thanks for the information about Mexican neighborhoods in Chicago. It doesn't really surprise me. In case you're interested, here's a link to another long article I wrote a few years back analyzing the distinctive patterns of Hispanic crime rates both around the country and across different Hispanic groups:

    http://www.unz.com/article/the-myth-of-hispanic-crime/
    , @syonredux

    Mexicans had a reputation as hard workers.
     
    Cliche no.103 of the race replacement school

    There was a lot of intermarriage between Mexicans and working class white Catholics.
     
    How do the children define themselves? As Europeans or Mestizos?The ones that I know in CA are all "browner than thou."

    They were certainly rougher than gentrified ones, or middle class suburbia, but a student or artist type without much money could live in a Mexican neighborhood such as Pilsen and feel relatively safe.
     
    I find it very odd that people seem to think that saying that Mexican Amerinds/Mestizos are less prone to criminal violence than Blacks is some kind of ringing endorsement.It is , after all, a frightfully low bar....
    , @D. K.
    You "lived in Chicago" when, Doc? I grew up next door, in Gary. Chicago today is nothing like what it was, back when I was born. The notion that the majority-minority Chicago of today is essentially the same, just with hard-working Catholic Hispanics replacing hard-working Catholic ethnics from Eastern and Southern Europe, is laughable. It is a formerly blue-collar, largely middle-class city-- "The City that Works!"-- now turned into one split between a wealthy, mostly White minority and an impoverished, mostly non-White majority, the latter largely dependent upon government jobs and government-supplied benefits. The middle class that had dominated Chicago's demographics, during the Baby Boom generation, has been overwhelmingly pushed out of the city altogether. Like in much of contemporary America, the unfunded liabilities of Chicago are on the verge of sending the city over the financial cliff. America, led by former success stories like Chicago and Detroit, might itself wind up over the financial cliff-- even before the race-replacement program of the past fifty years otherwise reaches its fruition, with the majority-minority America that has our leaders dreaming of a multiracial and multicultural Utopia.
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  206. syonredux says: • Website
    @Ron Unz

    I’ve never seen a study on Sicilian-American IQ.For that matter, I’ve never seen a breakdown on what percentage of Italian-Americans are of Sicilian descent.
     
    Well, Lynn's 2010 numbers for other Southern Italians aren't much higher at IQ=90-92, well below those of the Mexican Mestizos you're always complaining about. Lynn: "The only region in Italy where the IQ is as low as 89 is Sicily. In the other four regions of southern Italy the IQ lies between 90 and 92." And the absolutely overwhelming majority of Italian-Americans are from Southern Italy or Sicily. Here's a link to an Italian anthropology blogger summarizing and disputing Lynn's analysis:

    http://italianthro.blogspot.com/2010/10/richard-lynn-further-refuted.html

    Furthermore, a massive very solid early 1970s IQ study determined that Ireland's IQ was just 87, far below Mexican Mestizos and only a little above your pure Amerinds. Given all the negative things you often say about the Irish, I doubt you'll find this too surprising:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-revised/

    And since for geographical and religious reasons, the ethnic group most likely to intermarry with Italians were the Irish, wouldn't they have dragged down the poor Sicilians?

    Really, isn't it time for you to admit that assuming all of Lynn's silly IQ numbers represent purest genetic reality is more than a little doubtful? In exchange, I'll promise not to quote some random blogger that the Shakespeare's works were actually written by the Earl of Oxford or whomever.

    well below those of the Mexican Mestizos you’re always complaining about.

    Hard not to complain about the people who are taking my culture and my country away from me, Ron.As you’ve noted, I’m a professor of English lit.And Milton and Johnson and Pope have no place in the new, Hispanic Mestizo America.As the [email protected] activists have told me at innumerable conferences, a Brown America needs a Brown literature.Melville and Henry James will have to go.I will have to go.

    It’s sad watching people destroy the very thing that gives your life meaning.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Well, on the other hand, educated Latinos tend to love Russian literature. Latin American social structure is not unlike that of Russia before the Revolution.
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  207. Truth says:
    @Ron Unz

    Where do the IQ numbers originate?...Are differential maturation rates, due to both nutrition and evolution, not a more plausible explanation for the famous Flynn Effect than the notion that even civilized humanity, over the course of recorded history, has been getting smarter and smarter, generation after generation, at a head-swivelling rate?
     
    Well, look. Psychometricians and other specialists have been debating the precise causes and meaning of the Flynn Effect for decades, and to my mind the question is not yet settled. Your suggestion is certainly among the several regularly considered.

    However, given the massive size and exceptional quality of the 1972 Irish study finding IQ=87, I think you can make a case it's about the most solidly established IQ result presented in all of Lynn's IQ books or anywhere else. Bear in mind also that Ireland is part of the British Isles, the Irish speak English, and they are probably genetically and culturally closer to the "Anglo-Saxons" than any other people on earth, absolutely minimizing any sort of subtle cultural or language testing bias. Perhaps the test results were nonsense for the reasons you give, but then you should probably also discard the results of just about every other IQ study ever done.

    http://www.ronunz.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/IrishIQ-HBDChick.pdf

    However, given the massive size and exceptional quality of the 1972 Irish study finding IQ=87, I think you can make a case it’s about the most solidly established IQ result presented in all of Lynn’s IQ books or anywhere else. Perhaps the test results were nonsense for the reasons you give, but then you should probably also discard the results of just about every other IQ study ever done.

    Soy it lahWOUUD you facking wankas, I’m block and I’m prahWOUUD!

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  208. Truth says:
    @D. K.
    I have no doubt that you believe that, Zippy. After all, that is why sub-Saharan Africa, today, is so vastly superior to Classical Greece and Rome, Renaissance Italy and England, and even early-Twentieth Century Europe, America, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

    Seventy-five years ago, when my late father left rural Illinois, to enlist in the Coast Guard, as a 19-year-old, having grown up in poverty, in a very large family, in the midst of the Great Depression, which began when he was only eight, and which caused him to drop out of grade school, about four years later, to help his father tar roofs, after he had lost his regular job as a coal miner, the Coast Guard measured my father's IQ at 140. "That's nearly a genius!" the man told him.

    Now, in light of the Flynn Effect, Zippy, and especially in light of poverty's supposedly withering effect on brain development in children, what do you suppose the chances of that IQ score were, back when White Americans were barely smarter than the average Black Nigerian is, today?

    Seventy-five years ago, when my late father left rural Illinois, to enlist in the Coast Guard, as a 19-year-old, having grown up in poverty, in a very large family, in the midst of the Great Depression, which began when he was only eight, and which caused him to drop out of grade school…

    “Average” white men fought in the civil war. Check out a random letter home to Wisconsin or Massachusetts by some 16 year old (easy enough to find), and tell me you think the writer’s IQ is under 100.

    Mr. Unz, I’d like to thank you and your readers for teaching me the way high IQ people do things.

    For instance; I’d always had this ridiculous idea that the way one debated an internationally recognized scholarly thesis was by either, one, point by point scholarly deconstruction, or two, highlighting a similar work, peer reviewed and generally accepted, that made a conflicting argument.

    Now I know that one just posts anecdotes.

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    Fred Reed's screed, here, utterly misrepresenting John Derbyshire's writings on Hispanics, is "an internationally recognized scholarly thesis," Zippy? The way to debate Fred Reed's "thesis" is to compare the relevant statistics for the United States, a White-founded nation being destroyed by non-Whites and ethnomasochistic Whites, to those of Mexico, a mixed-race Third World country, run by a venal White minority, for its own benefit, with a deliberate policy of getting its country's mestizo and Amerindian peasants to come leach off of the American people, while people like Mr. Unz rationalize it as something other than what it quite obviously is: genocidal race replacement.

    As for the IQs of various races, those are well established and well known to anyone familiar with psychometrics. Despite your own impressive credentials, Zippy-- such as scoring one point higher on your own SAT than the average White kid from a household with a family income of under $20,000 managed-- the statistics speak for themselves. Mr. Unz' delusion that when America is merely the largest and most overpopulated country (assuming that it even remains intact) in Latin America, with an Hispanic majority, and a Mexican plurality, that those Hispanics and Mexicans will have IQ scores comparable to Whites today, and that America will still be a shining beacon on a hill, is just that: a delusion!

    , @D. K.
    By the way, Zippy, I related that anecdote about my own father's history, not to prove a point by assertion, but instead to set up a very salient question about the pertinent subject of brain development, vis-a-vis the environment, and the resultant IQ distributions of different races and ethnicities:

    "Now, in light of the Flynn Effect, Zippy, and especially in light of poverty’s supposedly withering effect on brain development in children, what do you suppose the chances of that IQ score were, back when White Americans were barely smarter than the average Black Nigerian is, today?"

    So, again, what were the chances, Zippy, of my father scoring 140 on the Coast Guard's IQ test, in 1940, and what would such a score be equivalent to on a standard IQ test, today, after 75 years of the Flynn Effect working its inexorable evolutionary magic on the American population?

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  209. Ron Unz says:
    @AP
    Thank you for the clarification. This is good news.

    I lived in Chicago, the only city that has large Mexican, Puerto Rican, and African-American neighborhoods (plus various ethnic white areas of both old immigrants and new ones). Mexican areas had a similar reputation to working-class white ones. They were certainly rougher than gentrified ones, or middle class suburbia, but a student or artist type without much money could live in a Mexican neighborhood such as Pilsen and feel relatively safe. Mexicans had a reputation as hard workers. There was a lot of intermarriage between Mexicans and working class white Catholics.

    Thanks for the information about Mexican neighborhoods in Chicago. It doesn’t really surprise me. In case you’re interested, here’s a link to another long article I wrote a few years back analyzing the distinctive patterns of Hispanic crime rates both around the country and across different Hispanic groups:

    http://www.unz.com/article/the-myth-of-hispanic-crime/

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    • Replies: @AP
    Thanks! I noticed your article about Hispanic crime awhile ago and it's a go-to source in internet discussions for me.
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  210. syonredux says: • Website
    @AP
    Thank you for the clarification. This is good news.

    I lived in Chicago, the only city that has large Mexican, Puerto Rican, and African-American neighborhoods (plus various ethnic white areas of both old immigrants and new ones). Mexican areas had a similar reputation to working-class white ones. They were certainly rougher than gentrified ones, or middle class suburbia, but a student or artist type without much money could live in a Mexican neighborhood such as Pilsen and feel relatively safe. Mexicans had a reputation as hard workers. There was a lot of intermarriage between Mexicans and working class white Catholics.

    Mexicans had a reputation as hard workers.

    Cliche no.103 of the race replacement school

    There was a lot of intermarriage between Mexicans and working class white Catholics.

    How do the children define themselves? As Europeans or Mestizos?The ones that I know in CA are all “browner than thou.”

    They were certainly rougher than gentrified ones, or middle class suburbia, but a student or artist type without much money could live in a Mexican neighborhood such as Pilsen and feel relatively safe.

    I find it very odd that people seem to think that saying that Mexican Amerinds/Mestizos are less prone to criminal violence than Blacks is some kind of ringing endorsement.It is , after all, a frightfully low bar….

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    • Replies: @AP


    Mexicans had a reputation as hard workers.

    Cliche no.103 of the race replacement school

     

    Many clichés are based on reality. That's the reputation.

    Cliche no.103 of the race replacement school

    There was a lot of intermarriage between Mexicans and working class white Catholics.

    How do the children define themselves? As Europeans or Mestizos?The ones that I know in CA are all “browner than thou.”
     
    I don't know. Since Mestizos are themselves about 40% European descent, these half-Mestizos are about 70% European. If they want to get far, they'll be Hispanic on university and scholarship applications.

    I find it very odd that people seem to think that saying that Mexican Amerinds/Mestizos are less prone to criminal violence than Blacks is some kind of ringing endorsement.It is , after all, a frightfully low bar….
     
    They're comparable to working class or poor white areas. I doubt that Mexican areas are any more dangerous than Boston's Irish poor areas.
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  211. D. K. says:
    @Truth

    Seventy-five years ago, when my late father left rural Illinois, to enlist in the Coast Guard, as a 19-year-old, having grown up in poverty, in a very large family, in the midst of the Great Depression, which began when he was only eight, and which caused him to drop out of grade school...
     

    “Average” white men fought in the civil war. Check out a random letter home to Wisconsin or Massachusetts by some 16 year old (easy enough to find), and tell me you think the writer’s IQ is under 100.
     
    Mr. Unz, I'd like to thank you and your readers for teaching me the way high IQ people do things.

    For instance; I'd always had this ridiculous idea that the way one debated an internationally recognized scholarly thesis was by either, one, point by point scholarly deconstruction, or two, highlighting a similar work, peer reviewed and generally accepted, that made a conflicting argument.

    Now I know that one just posts anecdotes.

    Fred Reed’s screed, here, utterly misrepresenting John Derbyshire’s writings on Hispanics, is “an internationally recognized scholarly thesis,” Zippy? The way to debate Fred Reed’s “thesis” is to compare the relevant statistics for the United States, a White-founded nation being destroyed by non-Whites and ethnomasochistic Whites, to those of Mexico, a mixed-race Third World country, run by a venal White minority, for its own benefit, with a deliberate policy of getting its country’s mestizo and Amerindian peasants to come leach off of the American people, while people like Mr. Unz rationalize it as something other than what it quite obviously is: genocidal race replacement.

    As for the IQs of various races, those are well established and well known to anyone familiar with psychometrics. Despite your own impressive credentials, Zippy– such as scoring one point higher on your own SAT than the average White kid from a household with a family income of under $20,000 managed– the statistics speak for themselves. Mr. Unz’ delusion that when America is merely the largest and most overpopulated country (assuming that it even remains intact) in Latin America, with an Hispanic majority, and a Mexican plurality, that those Hispanics and Mexicans will have IQ scores comparable to Whites today, and that America will still be a shining beacon on a hill, is just that: a delusion!

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    • Replies: @Truth

    Fred Reed’s screed, here, utterly misrepresenting John Derbyshire’s writings on Hispanics, is “an internationally recognized scholarly thesis,” Zippy?
     
    LMAO! Relax there, Noam Chomsky, I was referring to the Flynn Effect itself.
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  212. syonredux says: • Website
    @Ron Unz

    Ron – any adoption studies involving Native Americans and Mexicans?
     
    None that I'm aware of, at least of statistical significance.

    However, in my original article I pointed out that an examination of Wordsum-IQ scores indicates that during just the two decades from the 1980s to the 2000s, almost *two-thirds* of the IQ gap between American-born Mex-Ams and whites disappeared, a truly remarkable result. Furthermore, the values provided by the large NLSY-97 dataset are fully consistent with these numbers. Obviously, GSS Wordsum isn't exactly an IQ test, but it has been found to correlate at 0.71 with IQ, being roughly as good as the old-style SAT for example.

    http://www.unz.com/article/race-iq-and-wealth/#implications-for-the-american-immigration-debate

    It's perfectly possible that the underlying genetic/innate IQ of Mex-Ams might be slightly below that of whites, which would further underscore the exceptional speed at which Mex-Ams appear to be converging to their true potential IQ, apparently far, far faster than did most of the Southern or Eastern European immigrants of 100 years ago. Therefore, I think the suggestion the process might take "a few generations" is very much on the pessimistic side.

    On an empirical level, I live in Silicon Valley, which is almost one-third Hispanic and heavily immigrant. As near as I can tell, they mostly seem to be doing fine, following much the same blue-collar trajectory as numerous other immigrant groups of the past, such as the Irish, the Italians, and the Slavs.

    On an empirical level, I live in Silicon Valley, which is almost one-third Hispanic and heavily immigrant.

    Personal observation time? Hey, I can play that.When I was in High School, the Hispanic Mestizo/Amerind students were all clustered near the academic bottom with the Blacks.
    When I was a student at Berkeley, the pattern repeated itself.The top kids in every class were Anglo White and East Asian, while the Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds clustered at the bottom.Indeed, that was even true in the “Chicano Culture*” class that I took.Now that I’m a teacher, things have stayed pretty much the same.The worst papers are nearly always written by Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds and Blacks.

    As near as I can tell, they mostly seem to be doing fine,

    Depends on how you define “fine,” Ron

    following much the same blue-collar trajectory as numerous other immigrant groups of the past, such as the Irish, the Italians, and the Slavs.

    Well, to cite only the most obvious point, the Irish took a lot longer to climb the ladder of success than did the Italians.So, are Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos more like the Irish or are they more like the Italians?Or, horrors, maybe they’re different from both?

    *The class was built around the thesis that White Anglos ran CA as an Apartheid State.We spent endless hours discussing the Zoot Suit Riots, etc. The Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds were very receptive to the idea….

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    • Replies: @Ron Unz

    Well, to cite only the most obvious point, the Irish took a lot longer to climb the ladder of success than did the Italians.
     
    That's intriguing. I've spent close to forty years with a strong interest in ethnic sociology and have certainly read dozens of books and many hundreds of articles in the topic. During all that time, I can't seem to recall anyone ever making a single claim that Italian immigrants advanced much more rapidly than Irish immigrants. For example, I think as late as the 1970s, Italians still had a miserable rate of college graduation, some 70+ years after their main arrival.

    If anything, the public perceptions may have skewed somewhat in the other direction, since the Irish had mostly arrived a couple of generations earlier and partly for that reason have been a much more politically powerful and media-influential group than the Italians throughout almost all American history, often dominating or looking down upon the latter. For example, by the early decades of the 20th century, Anglo-Saxon racialists generally tended to regard the Irish as largely assimilated mainstream whites, while considering the (Southern) Italians to be racially inferior European stock, as evidenced by their having IQs in the 75-85 range.

    I'm not necessarily saying that you are wrong since I've never really focused on Irish/Italian comparisons, but I'm just curious about the basis for your claim.
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  213. Fred do yourself a favor. If you feel the writing hand start to twitch upon thinking about the situation of Mexicans or blacks….

    put it away. pull weeds with it. pet the dog. make a sandwich. cruise the channels.

    It always comes to no good. Ok maybe it’s popular. So is a pole dancing pop star with drug problems.

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  214. syonredux says: • Website
    @AP

    So, Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos have the genetic potential to reach a mean IQ of 100.How long is it going to take? How long will it take for Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos to reach a mean IQ of 100 in the USA? Will they attain it by 2060?2080? 2047?
     
    It would take a few generations, at least. And America isn't as equipped to to raise them to their potential as it did with the Sicilian and Irish peasants - it is much less aggressive in terms of assimilating minorities due to a less pro-American national ideology, plus it has allowed so many to come all at once. These are problems with America, not with the immigrants.

    And America isn’t as equipped to to raise them to their potential as it did with the Sicilian and Irish peasants – it is much less aggressive in terms of assimilating minorities due to a less pro-American national ideology, plus it has allowed so many to come all at once. These are problems with America, not with the immigrants.

    Which is another problem that Ron tends to elide.The America of 2015 is not the America of 1915.That America insisted on Americanizing her people.Our leaders were not craven Hispanophiles like JEB Bush.Instead, we had leaders like Theodore Roosevelt:

    There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. When I refer to hyphenated Americans, I do not refer to naturalized Americans. Some of the very best Americans I have ever known were naturalized Americans, Americans born abroad. But a hyphenated American is not an American at all.”

    “This is just as true of the man who puts “native” before the hyphen as of the man who puts German or Irish or English or French before the hyphen. Americanism is a matter of the spirit and of the soul. Our allegiance must be purely to the United States. We must unsparingly condemn any man who holds any other allegiance.”

    “But if he is heartily and singly loyal to this Republic, then no matter where he was born, he is just as good an American as any one else.”

    “The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to ruin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation at all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities, an intricate knot of German-Americans, Irish-Americans, English- Americans, French-Americans, Scandinavian- Americans, or Italian-Americans, each preserving its separate nationality, each at heart feeling more sympathy with Europeans of that nationality than with the other citizens of the American Republic.”

    “The men who do not become Americans and nothing else are hyphenated Americans; and there ought to be no room for them in this country. The man who calls himself an American citizen and who yet shows by his actions that he is primarily the citizen of a foreign land, plays a thoroughly mischievous part in the life of our body politic. He has no place here; and the sooner he returns to the land to which he feels his real heart-allegiance, the better it will be for every good American.”

    Theodore Roosevelt
    Address to the Knights of Columbus
    New York City- October 12th, 1915

    For a practical demonstration of this mindset, during the 1917-18 period, America waged a Kulturkampf against German culture in America.

    Sadly, attitudes are quite different now.Horace Kallen’s “multicultural” ideas have won the day….

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  215. D. K. says:
    @AP
    Thank you for the clarification. This is good news.

    I lived in Chicago, the only city that has large Mexican, Puerto Rican, and African-American neighborhoods (plus various ethnic white areas of both old immigrants and new ones). Mexican areas had a similar reputation to working-class white ones. They were certainly rougher than gentrified ones, or middle class suburbia, but a student or artist type without much money could live in a Mexican neighborhood such as Pilsen and feel relatively safe. Mexicans had a reputation as hard workers. There was a lot of intermarriage between Mexicans and working class white Catholics.

    You “lived in Chicago” when, Doc? I grew up next door, in Gary. Chicago today is nothing like what it was, back when I was born. The notion that the majority-minority Chicago of today is essentially the same, just with hard-working Catholic Hispanics replacing hard-working Catholic ethnics from Eastern and Southern Europe, is laughable. It is a formerly blue-collar, largely middle-class city– “The City that Works!”– now turned into one split between a wealthy, mostly White minority and an impoverished, mostly non-White majority, the latter largely dependent upon government jobs and government-supplied benefits. The middle class that had dominated Chicago’s demographics, during the Baby Boom generation, has been overwhelmingly pushed out of the city altogether. Like in much of contemporary America, the unfunded liabilities of Chicago are on the verge of sending the city over the financial cliff. America, led by former success stories like Chicago and Detroit, might itself wind up over the financial cliff– even before the race-replacement program of the past fifty years otherwise reaches its fruition, with the majority-minority America that has our leaders dreaming of a multiracial and multicultural Utopia.

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    • Replies: @AP
    I lived in Chicago in the late 90s when the city was on an upswing that has continued until recently. I've always had family there and visit them regularly.

    I once spent a year renting a gorgeous apartment, in a primarily Mexican area. Neither my wife nor I ever experienced trouble, and we walked at night, took the El home late at night, etc. Shopping at the local carniceria y fruteria was cheaper than at a regular grocery store.

    Puerto Rican areas had much more of an edge, and we avoided them, but braver souls could and did live in them. The FOBs (fresh-off-the-boaters) from Ukraine are chasing them out of the part of Humbolt Park that borders Ukrainian village, which is too established and expensive for new immigrants.

    Most of the South Side, OTOH, was a no-go area (with obvious exceptions such as Hyde Park or the Lithuanian enclave).

    "The notion that the majority-minority Chicago of today is essentially the same, just with hard-working Catholic Hispanics replacing hard-working Catholic ethnics from Eastern and Southern Europe, is laughable.

    Chicago has changed a lot, but not in the ways you suggest. It has become two cities - Toronto in the North, Detroit in the South. That is, the gentrified nice areas have expanded a lot, while the South Side has gotten much worse. The solid working class areas have shrunk, but Mexican areas belong in that category, not in the "war zone ghetto" category.

    Here is a map of violent crime in Chicago by neighborhood (it's from 2006 but patterns are similar):

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Chicago_violent_crime_map_2006.png

    Look at the strip of "green" low-crime areas in the West such as South Lawndale. South Lawndale used to be working class Polish, now it is called "the Mexico of the Midwest." It's about as safe as gentrified northern parts of the city. Contrast it with overwhelmingly African American North Lawndale next door.


    I don't dispute your description of the city's bleak financial situation. The corruption in Chicago is epic and is the closest thing America has to Russian-style governance. One of my relatives was a precinct captain in Daley's machine, I've heard quite a lot of stories...

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  216. D. K. says:
    @Truth

    Seventy-five years ago, when my late father left rural Illinois, to enlist in the Coast Guard, as a 19-year-old, having grown up in poverty, in a very large family, in the midst of the Great Depression, which began when he was only eight, and which caused him to drop out of grade school...
     

    “Average” white men fought in the civil war. Check out a random letter home to Wisconsin or Massachusetts by some 16 year old (easy enough to find), and tell me you think the writer’s IQ is under 100.
     
    Mr. Unz, I'd like to thank you and your readers for teaching me the way high IQ people do things.

    For instance; I'd always had this ridiculous idea that the way one debated an internationally recognized scholarly thesis was by either, one, point by point scholarly deconstruction, or two, highlighting a similar work, peer reviewed and generally accepted, that made a conflicting argument.

    Now I know that one just posts anecdotes.

    By the way, Zippy, I related that anecdote about my own father’s history, not to prove a point by assertion, but instead to set up a very salient question about the pertinent subject of brain development, vis-a-vis the environment, and the resultant IQ distributions of different races and ethnicities:

    “Now, in light of the Flynn Effect, Zippy, and especially in light of poverty’s supposedly withering effect on brain development in children, what do you suppose the chances of that IQ score were, back when White Americans were barely smarter than the average Black Nigerian is, today?”

    So, again, what were the chances, Zippy, of my father scoring 140 on the Coast Guard’s IQ test, in 1940, and what would such a score be equivalent to on a standard IQ test, today, after 75 years of the Flynn Effect working its inexorable evolutionary magic on the American population?

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    • Replies: @Truth

    So, again, what were the chances, Zippy, of my father scoring 140 on the Coast Guard’s IQ test, in 1940, and what would such a score be equivalent to on a standard IQ test, today, after 75 years of the Flynn Effect working its inexorable evolutionary magic on the American population?
     
    Probably the same level of chance of a Nigerian immigrant from a community of 67 IQers being valedictorian and gaining entry to every Ivy league college. And from the results of my rudimentary math, you father would have scored roughly a 118 today.
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  217. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @D. K.
    You "lived in Chicago" when, Doc? I grew up next door, in Gary. Chicago today is nothing like what it was, back when I was born. The notion that the majority-minority Chicago of today is essentially the same, just with hard-working Catholic Hispanics replacing hard-working Catholic ethnics from Eastern and Southern Europe, is laughable. It is a formerly blue-collar, largely middle-class city-- "The City that Works!"-- now turned into one split between a wealthy, mostly White minority and an impoverished, mostly non-White majority, the latter largely dependent upon government jobs and government-supplied benefits. The middle class that had dominated Chicago's demographics, during the Baby Boom generation, has been overwhelmingly pushed out of the city altogether. Like in much of contemporary America, the unfunded liabilities of Chicago are on the verge of sending the city over the financial cliff. America, led by former success stories like Chicago and Detroit, might itself wind up over the financial cliff-- even before the race-replacement program of the past fifty years otherwise reaches its fruition, with the majority-minority America that has our leaders dreaming of a multiracial and multicultural Utopia.

    I lived in Chicago in the late 90s when the city was on an upswing that has continued until recently. I’ve always had family there and visit them regularly.

    I once spent a year renting a gorgeous apartment, in a primarily Mexican area. Neither my wife nor I ever experienced trouble, and we walked at night, took the El home late at night, etc. Shopping at the local carniceria y fruteria was cheaper than at a regular grocery store.

    Puerto Rican areas had much more of an edge, and we avoided them, but braver souls could and did live in them. The FOBs (fresh-off-the-boaters) from Ukraine are chasing them out of the part of Humbolt Park that borders Ukrainian village, which is too established and expensive for new immigrants.

    Most of the South Side, OTOH, was a no-go area (with obvious exceptions such as Hyde Park or the Lithuanian enclave).

    “The notion that the majority-minority Chicago of today is essentially the same, just with hard-working Catholic Hispanics replacing hard-working Catholic ethnics from Eastern and Southern Europe, is laughable.

    Chicago has changed a lot, but not in the ways you suggest. It has become two cities – Toronto in the North, Detroit in the South. That is, the gentrified nice areas have expanded a lot, while the South Side has gotten much worse. The solid working class areas have shrunk, but Mexican areas belong in that category, not in the “war zone ghetto” category.

    Here is a map of violent crime in Chicago by neighborhood (it’s from 2006 but patterns are similar):

    Look at the strip of “green” low-crime areas in the West such as South Lawndale. South Lawndale used to be working class Polish, now it is called “the Mexico of the Midwest.” It’s about as safe as gentrified northern parts of the city. Contrast it with overwhelmingly African American North Lawndale next door.

    I don’t dispute your description of the city’s bleak financial situation. The corruption in Chicago is epic and is the closest thing America has to Russian-style governance. One of my relatives was a precinct captain in Daley’s machine, I’ve heard quite a lot of stories…

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    http://danielkayhertz.com/2014/03/31/middle-class/
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  218. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @syonredux

    Mexicans had a reputation as hard workers.
     
    Cliche no.103 of the race replacement school

    There was a lot of intermarriage between Mexicans and working class white Catholics.
     
    How do the children define themselves? As Europeans or Mestizos?The ones that I know in CA are all "browner than thou."

    They were certainly rougher than gentrified ones, or middle class suburbia, but a student or artist type without much money could live in a Mexican neighborhood such as Pilsen and feel relatively safe.
     
    I find it very odd that people seem to think that saying that Mexican Amerinds/Mestizos are less prone to criminal violence than Blacks is some kind of ringing endorsement.It is , after all, a frightfully low bar....

    Mexicans had a reputation as hard workers.

    Cliche no.103 of the race replacement school

    Many clichés are based on reality. That’s the reputation.

    Cliche no.103 of the race replacement school

    There was a lot of intermarriage between Mexicans and working class white Catholics.

    How do the children define themselves? As Europeans or Mestizos?The ones that I know in CA are all “browner than thou.”

    I don’t know. Since Mestizos are themselves about 40% European descent, these half-Mestizos are about 70% European. If they want to get far, they’ll be Hispanic on university and scholarship applications.

    I find it very odd that people seem to think that saying that Mexican Amerinds/Mestizos are less prone to criminal violence than Blacks is some kind of ringing endorsement.It is , after all, a frightfully low bar….

    They’re comparable to working class or poor white areas. I doubt that Mexican areas are any more dangerous than Boston’s Irish poor areas.

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    • Replies: @syonredux

    Many clichés are based on reality. That’s the reputation.
     
    But, I take it that you are less fond of the cliche that Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds are not very bright?

    I don’t know. Since Mestizos are themselves about 40% European descent,
     
    On average.Some are more.Others are less.And, of course, the USA is also receiving quite a few pure Hispanic Amerinds....

    these half-Mestizos
     
    Awkward phrase

    are about 70% European. If they want to get far, they’ll be Hispanic on university and scholarship applications.
     
    And the other point that I keep on making.How is the USA going to function as the Anglo Euro portion goes down?How long will Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds keep on getting affirmative action set asides at the expense of the evil Euro Anglos?When will the breaking point be reached?

    They’re comparable to working class or poor white areas.
     
    So, again, they're just less violent than Blacks.How heartwarming.

    I doubt that Mexican areas are any more dangerous than Boston’s Irish poor areas.
     
    And the Irish are, of course, a famously pugnacious group.Talking to Ron has prompted me to look through my old copy of Sowell's Ethnic America, and the accounts of Irish violence are quite shocking.On page 39, for example, he notes how the Irish responded with mob violence to practically every ethnic group that they encountered in America: the Chinese, the Italians, the Germans, the Jews, etc.

    Well, on the other hand, educated Latinos tend to love Russian literature.
     
    Which would be great, if the United States were Russia.....

    Latin American social structure is not unlike that of Russia before the Revolution.
     
    Again, not exactly a ringing endorsement....
    , @dcite
    Why "I doubt?" Serious claims require serious proofs. The Irish didn't make Boston unlivable for the past 150 years. They haven't been responsible, as a group, for making any major city or state unlivable for the middle class. Surely you can find Mexican and Irish crime stats, since you are making claims about them.
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  219. AP [AKA "Dr. Preobrazhensky"] says:
    @syonredux

    well below those of the Mexican Mestizos you’re always complaining about.
     
    Hard not to complain about the people who are taking my culture and my country away from me, Ron.As you've noted, I'm a professor of English lit.And Milton and Johnson and Pope have no place in the new, Hispanic Mestizo America.As the [email protected] activists have told me at innumerable conferences, a Brown America needs a Brown literature.Melville and Henry James will have to go.I will have to go.

    It's sad watching people destroy the very thing that gives your life meaning.

    Well, on the other hand, educated Latinos tend to love Russian literature. Latin American social structure is not unlike that of Russia before the Revolution.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ron Unz

    Well, on the other hand, educated Latinos tend to love Russian literature. Latin American social structure is not unlike that of Russia before the Revolution.
     
    Yes, the "cultural elitism" of most Latin American societies is a point that people sometimes miss.

    In 1987 I moved to Jackson Heights, Queens, which was a very heavily immigrant area, including all sorts of different Hispanics. The neighborhood had a very traditional working-class/middle-class East Coast atmosphere, quite unusual to someone from California such as myself.

    There were lots of Asian and Hispanic street vendors, and some of the latter often had tables overflowing with ultra-cheap paperbacks in Spanish. One thing that initially surprised me was that so many of those books were the classic works of European literature---all the great Russian, French, and German authors---plus the famous Spanish, Latin American, English, and American writers of the past. (By contrast, American street vendors in Manhattan who sold English-language paperbacks almost entirely carried the sort of popular/trashy recent bestsellers that dominate our drug store racks and national lists.)

    My initial reaction was How odd---why in the world would Latin Americans have such interest in great French or Russian novelists? But then I immediately realized that the relationship is totally parallel to that of English-speaking North Americans. It's a little like a child meeting his cousin and being shocked that they actually have the same grandparents. In fact, since Britain has always been culturally somewhat offset from the Continent, in some respects Latin America might be culturally closer to France or even Russia than North America.
    , @Twinkie

    Well, on the other hand, educated Latinos tend to love Russian literature.
     
    1. Yes, they do seem to love the commie stuff. 2. Alas, there is never enough of these "educated" Latinos to go around.

    Latin American social structure is not unlike that of Russia before the Revolution.
     
    And some of these educated types seem intent on bringing on the Revolution to follow the Russian trajectory after the Revolution.
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  220. Ron Unz says:
    @syonredux

    On an empirical level, I live in Silicon Valley, which is almost one-third Hispanic and heavily immigrant.
     
    Personal observation time? Hey, I can play that.When I was in High School, the Hispanic Mestizo/Amerind students were all clustered near the academic bottom with the Blacks.
    When I was a student at Berkeley, the pattern repeated itself.The top kids in every class were Anglo White and East Asian, while the Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds clustered at the bottom.Indeed, that was even true in the "Chicano Culture*" class that I took.Now that I'm a teacher, things have stayed pretty much the same.The worst papers are nearly always written by Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds and Blacks.

    As near as I can tell, they mostly seem to be doing fine,
     
    Depends on how you define "fine," Ron

    following much the same blue-collar trajectory as numerous other immigrant groups of the past, such as the Irish, the Italians, and the Slavs.
     
    Well, to cite only the most obvious point, the Irish took a lot longer to climb the ladder of success than did the Italians.So, are Hispanic Amerinds/Mestizos more like the Irish or are they more like the Italians?Or, horrors, maybe they're different from both?





    *The class was built around the thesis that White Anglos ran CA as an Apartheid State.We spent endless hours discussing the Zoot Suit Riots, etc. The Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds were very receptive to the idea....

    Well, to cite only the most obvious point, the Irish took a lot longer to climb the ladder of success than did the Italians.

    That’s intriguing. I’ve spent close to forty years with a strong interest in ethnic sociology and have certainly read dozens of books and many hundreds of articles in the topic. During all that time, I can’t seem to recall anyone ever making a single claim that Italian immigrants advanced much more rapidly than Irish immigrants. For example, I think as late as the 1970s, Italians still had a miserable rate of college graduation, some 70+ years after their main arrival.

    If anything, the public perceptions may have skewed somewhat in the other direction, since the Irish had mostly arrived a couple of generations earlier and partly for that reason have been a much more politically powerful and media-influential group than the Italians throughout almost all American history, often dominating or looking down upon the latter. For example, by the early decades of the 20th century, Anglo-Saxon racialists generally tended to regard the Irish as largely assimilated mainstream whites, while considering the (Southern) Italians to be racially inferior European stock, as evidenced by their having IQs in the 75-85 range.

    I’m not necessarily saying that you are wrong since I’ve never really focused on Irish/Italian comparisons, but I’m just curious about the basis for your claim.

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  221. Truth says:
    @D. K.
    Fred Reed's screed, here, utterly misrepresenting John Derbyshire's writings on Hispanics, is "an internationally recognized scholarly thesis," Zippy? The way to debate Fred Reed's "thesis" is to compare the relevant statistics for the United States, a White-founded nation being destroyed by non-Whites and ethnomasochistic Whites, to those of Mexico, a mixed-race Third World country, run by a venal White minority, for its own benefit, with a deliberate policy of getting its country's mestizo and Amerindian peasants to come leach off of the American people, while people like Mr. Unz rationalize it as something other than what it quite obviously is: genocidal race replacement.

    As for the IQs of various races, those are well established and well known to anyone familiar with psychometrics. Despite your own impressive credentials, Zippy-- such as scoring one point higher on your own SAT than the average White kid from a household with a family income of under $20,000 managed-- the statistics speak for themselves. Mr. Unz' delusion that when America is merely the largest and most overpopulated country (assuming that it even remains intact) in Latin America, with an Hispanic majority, and a Mexican plurality, that those Hispanics and Mexicans will have IQ scores comparable to Whites today, and that America will still be a shining beacon on a hill, is just that: a delusion!

    Fred Reed’s screed, here, utterly misrepresenting John Derbyshire’s writings on Hispanics, is “an internationally recognized scholarly thesis,” Zippy?

    LMAO! Relax there, Noam Chomsky, I was referring to the Flynn Effect itself.

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    I already have solved the Flynn Effect [supra]. Let's move on and solve the mystery of how all of those Haitians came to be HIV-positive, back in the '80s, when none of them was an intravenous drug user or homosexual!?!
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  222. Ron Unz says:
    @AP
    Well, on the other hand, educated Latinos tend to love Russian literature. Latin American social structure is not unlike that of Russia before the Revolution.

    Well, on the other hand, educated Latinos tend to love Russian literature. Latin American social structure is not unlike that of Russia before the Revolution.

    Yes, the “cultural elitism” of most Latin American societies is a point that people sometimes miss.

    In 1987 I moved to Jackson Heights, Queens, which was a very heavily immigrant area, including all sorts of different Hispanics. The neighborhood had a very traditional working-class/middle-class East Coast atmosphere, quite unusual to someone from California such as myself.

    There were lots of Asian and Hispanic street vendors, and some of the latter often had tables overflowing with ultra-cheap paperbacks in Spanish. One thing that initially surprised me was that so many of those books were the classic works of European literature—all the great Russian, French, and German authors—plus the famous Spanish, Latin American, English, and American writers of the past. (By contrast, American street vendors in Manhattan who sold English-language paperbacks almost entirely carried the sort of popular/trashy recent bestsellers that dominate our drug store racks and national lists.)

    My initial reaction was How odd—why in the world would Latin Americans have such interest in great French or Russian novelists? But then I immediately realized that the relationship is totally parallel to that of English-speaking North Americans. It’s a little like a child meeting his cousin and being shocked that they actually have the same grandparents. In fact, since Britain has always been culturally somewhat offset from the Continent, in some respects Latin America might be culturally closer to France or even Russia than North America.

    Read More
    • Replies: @syonredux

    Yes, the “cultural elitism” of most Latin American societies is a point that people sometimes miss.
     
    MMM, well, let's see how that plays out.I've already discussed Latin America's dismal performance in terms of the Fields Medal:




    United States 12

    France 10

    Soviet Union (3) / Russia (6) 9

    United Kingdom 7

    Japan 3
    Belgium 2

    West Germany (1) / Germany (0) 1

    Australia 1

    British Hong Kong 1

    Finland 1

    Israel 1

    Italy 1

    Norway 1

    New Zealand 1

    Sweden 1

    Vietnam 1

    Iran 1

    Brazil 1

    (None Stateless) 1

    I’ve left out Manjul Bhargava. His background is complicated.

    All of Latin America has exactly 1, as compared to 12 for Anglo-America.

    How about a look at Nobel Prize winners? The lists are from WIKIPEDIA, so, usual caveats.

    Argentina
    César Milstein, Physiology or Medicine, 1984
    Adolfo Pérez Esquivel, Peace, 1980
    Luis Federico Leloir, Chemistry, 1970
    Bernardo Houssay, Physiology or Medicine, 1947
    Carlos Saavedra Lamas, Peace, 1936

    Chile
    Pablo Neruda, Literature, 1971
    Gabriela Mistral, Literature, 1945


    Colombia
    Gabriel García Márquez, Literature, 1982

    Costa Rica[edit]
    Óscar Arias Sánchez, Peace, 1987


    Guatemala[edit]
    Rigoberta Menchú, Peace, 1992
    Miguel Ángel Asturias, Literature, 1967



    Mexico[edit]
    Mario José Molina Henríquez*, Chemistry, 1995
    Octavio Paz Lozano, Literature, 1990
    Alfonso García Robles, Peace, 1982


    Venezuela[edit]
    Baruj Benacerraf, Physiology or Medicine, 1980


    Total for Latin America: 15

    Now, let's look at Anglo-America:


    Canada[edit]
    Alice Munro, Literature, 2013
    Ralph M. Steinman, Physiology or Medicine, 2011
    Willard S. Boyle*, Physics, 2009
    Jack W. Szostak, born in the United Kingdom, Physiology or Medicine, 2009
    Robert Mundell, Economics, 1999
    Myron Scholes*, Economics, 1997
    William Vickrey*, Economics, 1996
    Pugwash Conferences on Science and World Affairs, Peace, 1995
    Bertram N. Brockhouse, Physics, 1994
    Michael Smith, born in the United Kingdom, Chemistry, 1993
    Rudolph A. Marcus*, Chemistry, 1992
    Richard E. Taylor, Physics, 1990
    Sidney Altman, Chemistry, 1989
    John C. Polányi, born in Germany, Chemistry, 1986
    Henry Taube*, Chemistry, 1983
    David H. Hubel*, Physiology or Medicine, 1981
    Saul Bellow*, Literature, 1976
    Gerhard Herzberg, born in Germany, Chemistry, 1971
    Charles B. Huggins*, Physiology or Medicine, 1966
    Lester B. Pearson, Peace, 1957
    William Giauque*, Chemistry, 1949
    Frederick G. Banting, Physiology or Medicine, 1923
    Ernest Rutherford, born in New Zealand, Chemistry, 1908

    If anyone is curious, Canada has 23, which means that Canada just beat all of Latin America.....


    United States[edit]
    William E. Moerner, Chemistry, 2014
    Eric Betzig, Chemistry, 2014
    Shuji Nakamura, born in Japan, Physics, 2014
    John O'Keefe*, Physiology or Medicine, 2014
    Robert J. Shiller, Economics, 2013
    Lars Peter Hansen, Economics, 2013
    Eugene F. Fama, Economics, 2013
    Arieh Warshel, born in Israel, Chemistry, 2013
    Michael Levitt, born in South Africa, Chemistry, 2013
    Martin Karplus, born in Austria, Chemistry, 2013
    Randy Schekman, Physiology or Medicine, 2013
    Thomas C. Südhof, born in Germany, Physiology or Medicine, 2013
    James Rothman, Physiology or Medicine, 2013
    Alvin E. Roth, Economics, 2012
    Lloyd S. Shapley, Economics, 2012
    Brian K. Kobilka, Chemistry, 2012
    Robert J. Lefkowitz, Chemistry, 2012
    David J. Wineland, Physics, 2012
    Christopher A. Sims, Economics, 2011
    Thomas J. Sargent, Economics, 2011
    Saul Perlmutter, Physics, 2011
    Brian P. Schmidt, Physics, 2011
    Adam G. Riess, Physics, 2011
    Ralph M. Steinman, born in Canada, Physiology or Medicine, 2011


    Bruce Beutler, Physiology or Medicine, 2011
    Peter A. Diamond, Economics, 2010
    Dale T. Mortensen, Economics, 2010
    Richard F. Heck, Chemistry, 2010
    Ei-ichi Negishi, born in Japan, Chemistry, 2010
    Elinor Ostrom, Economics, 2009
    Oliver Eaton Williamson, Economics, 2009
    Barack H. Obama, Peace, 2009
    Venkatraman Ramakrishnan*, born in Chidambaram, India, Chemistry, 2009
    Thomas A. Steitz, Chemistry, 2009
    Willard S. Boyle, born in Canada, Physics, 2009
    Charles K. Kao, born in China, Physics, 2009
    George E. Smith, Physics, 2009
    Elizabeth Blackburn, born in Australia, Physiology or Medicine, 2009
    Carol W. Greider, Physiology or Medicine, 2009
    Jack W. Szostak, born in United Kingdom, Physiology or Medicine, 2009
    Paul Krugman, Economics, 2008
    Roger Yonchien Tsien, Chemistry, 2008
    Martin Chalfie, Chemistry, 2008
    Osamu Shimomura, born in Japan, Chemistry, 2008
    Yoichiro Nambu, born in Japan, Physics, 2008
    Leonid Hurwicz, born in Russia, Economics, 2007
    Eric S. Maskin, Economics, 2007
    Roger B. Myerson, Economics, 2007
    Al Gore, Peace, 2007
    Mario R. Capecchi, born in Italy, Physiology or Medicine, 2007
    Oliver Smithies, born in United Kingdom, Physiology or Medicine, 2007
    Roger D. Kornberg, Chemistry, 2006
    John C. Mather, Physics, 2006
    Edmund S. Phelps, Economics, 2006
    George F. Smoot, Physics, 2006
    Andrew Z. Fire, Physiology or Medicine, 2006
    Craig C. Mello, Physiology or Medicine, 2006
    Robert Aumann, born in Germany, Economics, 2005
    Robert H. Grubbs, Chemistry, 2005
    Richard R. Schrock, Chemistry, 2005


    Thomas Schelling, Economics, 2005
    John L. Hall, Physics, 2005
    Roy J. Glauber, Physics, 2005
    Irwin Rose, Chemistry, 2004
    Edward C. Prescott, Economics, 2004
    David J. Gross, Physics, 2004
    H. David Politzer, Physics, 2004
    Frank Wilczek, Physics, 2004
    Richard Axel, Physiology or Medicine, 2004
    Linda B. Buck, Physiology or Medicine, 2004
    Peter Agre, Chemistry, 2003
    Roderick MacKinnon, Chemistry, 2003
    Robert F. Engle, Economics, 2003
    Anthony J. Leggett, born in United Kingdom, Physics, 2003
    Paul C. Lauterbur, Physiology or Medicine, 2003
    Alexei A. Abrikosov, born in Russia, Physics, 2003
    Daniel Kahneman, born in Israel, Economics, 2002
    Vernon L. Smith, Economics, 2002
    Jimmy Carter, Peace, 2002
    John Bennett Fenn, Chemistry, 2002
    Raymond Davis Jr., Physics, 2002
    Riccardo Giacconi, born in Italy, Physics, 2002
    Sydney Brenner, born in South Africa, Physiology or Medicine, 2002
    H. Robert Horvitz, Physiology or Medicine, 2002
    William S. Knowles, Chemistry, 2001
    K. Barry Sharpless, Chemistry, 2001
    Joseph E. Stiglitz, Economics, 2001
    George A. Akerlof, Economics, 2001
    A. Michael Spence, Economics, 2001
    Eric A. Cornell, Physics, 2001
    Carl E. Wieman, Physics, 2001
    Leland H. Hartwell, Physiology or Medicine, 2001
    Alan Heeger, Chemistry, 2000
    Alan MacDiarmid, born in New Zealand, Chemistry, 2000
    James J. Heckman, Economics, 2000
    Daniel L. McFadden, Economics, 2000

    Jack Kilby, Physics, 2000
    Paul Greengard, Physiology or Medicine, 2000
    Eric R. Kandel, born in Austria, Physiology or Medicine, 2000
    Ahmed H. Zewail, born in Egypt, Chemistry, 1999
    Günter Blobel, born in then Germany, now Poland, Physiology or Medicine, 1999
    Walter Kohn, born in Austria, Chemistry, 1998
    Robert B. Laughlin, Physics, 1998
    Daniel C. Tsui, born in China, Physics, 1998
    Robert F. Furchgott, Physiology or Medicine, 1998
    Louis J. Ignarro, Physiology or Medicine, 1998
    Ferid Murad, Physiology or Medicine, 1998
    Paul D. Boyer, Chemistry, 1997
    Robert C. Merton, Economics, 1997
    Myron Scholes, born in Canada, Economics, 1997
    Jody Williams, Peace, 1997
    Steven Chu, Physics, 1997
    William D. Phillips, Physics, 1997
    Stanley B. Prusiner, Physiology or Medicine, 1997
    Richard E. Smalley, Chemistry, 1996
    Robert F. Curl Jr., Chemistry, 1996
    William Vickrey, born in Canada, Economics, 1996
    David M. Lee, Physics, 1996
    Douglas D. Osheroff, Physics, 1996
    Robert C. Richardson, Physics, 1996
    Mario J. Molina, born in Mexico, Chemistry, 1995
    F. Sherwood Rowland, Chemistry, 1995
    Robert Lucas, Jr., Economics, 1995
    Martin L. Perl, Physics, 1995
    Frederick Reines, Physics, 1995
    Edward B. Lewis, Physiology or Medicine, 1995
    Eric F. Wieschaus, Physiology or Medicine, 1995
    George Andrew Olah, born in Hungary, Chemistry, 1994
    John Charles Harsanyi, born in Hungary, Economics, 1994
    John Forbes Nash, Economics, 1994
    Clifford G. Shull, Physics, 1994

    Alfred G. Gilman, Physiology or Medicine, 1994
    Martin Rodbell, Physiology or Medicine, 1994
    Kary B. Mullis, Chemistry, 1993
    Robert W. Fogel, Economics, 1993
    Douglass C. North, Economics, 1993
    Toni Morrison, Literature, 1993
    Russell A. Hulse, Physics, 1993
    Joseph H. Taylor Jr., Physics, 1993
    Phillip A. Sharp, Physiology or Medicine, 1993
    Rudolph A. Marcus, born in Canada, Chemistry, 1992
    Gary S. Becker, Economics, 1992
    Edmond H. Fischer, born in China, Physiology or Medicine, 1992
    Edwin G. Krebs, Physiology or Medicine, 1992
    Ronald Coase, born in the United Kingdom, Economics, 1991
    Elias James Corey, Chemistry, 1990
    Merton H. Miller, Economics, 1990
    William F. Sharpe, Economics, 1990
    Harry M. Markowitz, Economics, 1990
    Jerome I. Friedman, Physics, 1990
    Henry W. Kendall, Physics, 1990
    Joseph E. Murray, Physiology or Medicine, 1990
    E. Donnall Thomas, Physiology or Medicine, 1990
    Sidney Altman, born in Canada, Chemistry, 1990
    Thomas R. Cech, Chemistry, 1989
    Hans G. Dehmelt, born in Germany, Physics, 1989
    Norman F. Ramsey, Physics, 1989
    J. Michael Bishop, Physiology or Medicine, 1989
    Harold E. Varmus, Physiology or Medicine, 1989
    Leon M. Lederman, Physics, 1988
    Melvin Schwartz, Physics, 1988
    Jack Steinberger, born in Germany, Physics, 1988
    Gertrude B. Elion, Physiology or Medicine, 1988
    George H. Hitchings, Physiology or Medicine, 1988
    Charles J. Pedersen, born in Korea, Chemistry, 1987

    Donald J. Cram, Chemistry, 1987
    Robert M. Solow, Economics, 1987
    Joseph Brodsky, born in Russia, Literature, 1987
    Dudley R. Herschbach, Chemistry, 1986
    Yuan T. Lee, born in Taiwan, Chemistry, 1986
    James M. Buchanan, Economics, 1986
    Elie Wiesel, born in Romania, Peace, 1986
    Stanley Cohen, Physiology or Medicine, 1986
    Rita Levi-Montalcini, born in Italy, Physiology or Medicine, 1986
    Jerome Karle, Chemistry, 1985
    Herbert A. Hauptman, Chemistry, 1985
    Franco Modigliani, born in Italy, Economics, 1985
    Michael S. Brown, Physiology or Medicine, 1985
    Joseph L. Goldstein, Physiology or Medicine, 1985
    Bruce Merrifield, Chemistry, 1984
    Henry Taube, born in Canada, Chemistry, 1983
    Gérard Debreu, born in France, Economics, 1983
    William A. Fowler, Physics, 1983
    Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar*, born in Lahore, India, Physics, 1983
    Barbara McClintock, Physiology or Medicine, 1983
    George J. Stigler, Economics, 1982
    Kenneth G. Wilson, Physics, 1982
    Roald Hoffmann, born in then Poland, now Ukraine, Chemistry, 1981
    James Tobin, Economics, 1981
    Nicolaas Bloembergen, born in the Netherlands, Physics, 1981
    Arthur L. Schawlow, Physics, 1981
    David H. Hubel, born in Canada, Physiology or Medicine, 1981
    Roger W. Sperry, Physiology or Medicine, 1981
    Walter Gilbert, Chemistry, 1980
    Paul Berg, Chemistry, 1980
    Lawrence R. Klein, Economics, 1980
    Czesław Miłosz, born in then Russian Empire, now Lithuania, Literature, 1980
    James Cronin, Physics, 1980


    Val Fitch, Physics, 1980
    Baruj Benacerraf, born in Venezuela, Physiology or Medicine, 1980
    George D. Snell, Physiology or Medicine, 1980
    Herbert C. Brown, Chemistry, 1979
    Theodore Schultz, Economics, 1979
    Steven Weinberg, Physics, 1979
    Sheldon Glashow, Physics, 1979
    Allan M. Cormack, born in South Africa, Physiology or Medicine, 1979
    Herbert A. Simon, Economics, 1978
    Isaac Bashevis Singer, born in then Russian Empire, now Poland, Literature, 1978
    Robert Woodrow Wilson, Physics, 1978
    Arno Penzias, born in Germany, Physics, 1978
    Hamilton O. Smith, Physiology or Medicine, 1978
    Daniel Nathans, Physiology or Medicine, 1978
    Philip Anderson, Physics, 1977
    John H. van Vleck, Physics, 1977
    Roger Guillemin, born in France, Physiology or Medicine, 1977
    Andrzej W. Schally, born in then Poland, now Lithuania, Physiology or Medicine, 1977
    Rosalyn Yalow, Physiology or Medicine, 1977
    William Lipscomb, Chemistry, 1976
    Milton Friedman, Economics, 1976
    Saul Bellow, born in Canada, Literature, 1976
    Burton Richter, Physics, 1976
    Samuel C. C. Ting, Physics, 1976
    Baruch S. Blumberg, Physiology or Medicine, 1976
    Daniel Carleton Gajdusek, Physiology or Medicine, 1976
    Tjalling C. Koopmans, born in the Netherlands, Economics, 1975
    Ben R. Mottelson*, Physics, 1975
    James Rainwater, Physics, 1975
    David Baltimore, Physiology or Medicine, 1975
    Renato Dulbecco, born in Italy, Physiology or Medicine, 1975
    Howard Martin Temin, Physiology or Medicine, 1975
    Paul J. Flory, Chemistry, 1974
    George E. Palade, born in Romania, Physiology or Medicine, 1974


    Wassily Leontief, born in Germany, Economics, 1973
    Henry Kissinger, born in Germany, Peace, 1973
    Ivar Giaever, Norway, Physics, 1973
    Christian Anfinsen, Chemistry, 1972
    Stanford Moore, Chemistry, 1972
    William H. Stein, Chemistry, 1972
    Kenneth J. Arrow, Economics, 1972
    John Bardeen, Physics, 1972
    Leon N. Cooper, Physics, 1972
    Robert Schrieffer, Physics, 1972
    Gerald Edelman, Physiology or Medicine, 1972
    Simon Kuznets, born in then Russia, now Belarus, Economics, 1971
    Earl W. Sutherland Jr., Physiology or Medicine, 1971
    Paul A. Samuelson, Economics, 1970
    Norman Borlaug, Peace, 1970
    Julius Axelrod, Physiology or Medicine, 1970
    Murray Gell-Mann, Physics, 1969
    Max Delbrück, born in Germany, Physiology or Medicine, 1969
    Alfred Hershey, Physiology or Medicine, 1969
    Salvador Luria, born in Italy, Physiology or Medicine, 1969
    Lars Onsager, born in Norway, Chemistry, 1968
    Luis Alvarez, Physics, 1968
    Robert W. Holley, Physiology or Medicine, 1968
    Har Gobind Khorana*, born in Kabirwala, India, Physiology or Medicine, 1968
    Marshall Warren Nirenberg, Physiology or Medicine, 1968
    Hans Bethe, born in then Germany, now France, Physics, 1967
    Haldan Keffer Hartline, Physiology or Medicine, 1967
    George Wald, Physiology or Medicine, 1967
    Robert S. Mulliken, Chemistry, 1966


    Charles B. Huggins, born in Canada, Physiology or Medicine, 1966
    Francis Peyton Rous, Physiology or Medicine, 1966
    Robert B. Woodward, Chemistry, 1965
    Richard P. Feynman, Physics, 1965
    Julian Schwinger, Physics, 1965
    Martin Luther King, Jr., Peace, 1964
    Charles H. Townes, Physics, 1964
    Konrad Bloch, born in then Germany, now Poland, Physiology or Medicine, 1964
    Maria Goeppert-Mayer, born in then Germany, now Poland, Physics, 1963
    Eugene Wigner, born in Hungary, Physics, 1963
    John Steinbeck, Literature, 1962
    Linus C. Pauling, Peace, 1962
    James D. Watson, Physiology or Medicine, 1962
    Melvin Calvin, Chemistry, 1961
    Robert Hofstadter, Physics, 1961
    Georg von Békésy, born in Hungary, Physiology or Medicine, 1961
    Willard F. Libby, Chemistry, 1960
    Donald A. Glaser, Physics, 1960
    Owen Chamberlain, Physics, 1959
    Emilio Segrè, born in Italy, Physics, 1959
    Arthur Kornberg, Physiology or Medicine, 1959
    Severo Ochoa, born in Spain, Physiology or Medicine, 1959
    George Beadle, Physiology or Medicine, 1958
    Joshua Lederberg, Physiology or Medicine, 1958
    Edward Tatum, Physiology or Medicine, 1958
    Chen Ning Yang, born in China, Physics, 1957
    Tsung-Dao Lee, born in China, Physics, 1957
    William B. Shockley, Physics, 1956
    John Bardeen, Physics, 1956
    Walter H. Brattain, Physics, 1956
    Dickinson W. Richards, Physiology or Medicine, 1956
    André F. Cournand, France, Physiology or Medicine, 1956
    Vincent du Vigneaud, Chemistry, 1955
    Willis E. Lamb, Physics, 1955


    Polykarp Kusch, born in Germany, Physics, 1955
    Linus C. Pauling, Chemistry, 1954
    Ernest Hemingway, Literature, 1954
    John F. Enders, Physiology or Medicine, 1954
    Frederick C. Robbins, Physiology or Medicine, 1954
    Thomas H. Weller, Physiology or Medicine, 1954
    George C. Marshall, Peace, 1953
    Fritz Lipmann, born in then Germany, now Russia, Physiology or Medicine, 1953
    E. M. Purcell, Physics, 1952
    Felix Bloch, born in Switzerland, Physics, 1952
    Selman A. Waksman, born in then Russian Empire, now Ukraine, Physiology or Medicine, 1952
    Edwin M. McMillan, Chemistry, 1951
    Glenn Theodore Seaborg, Chemistry, 1951
    Ralph J. Bunche, Peace, 1950
    Philip S. Hench, Physiology or Medicine, 1950
    Edward C. Kendall, Physiology or Medicine, 1950
    William Giauque, born in Canada, Chemistry, 1949
    William Faulkner, Literature, 1949
    T. S. Eliot*, Literature, 1948
    American Friends Service Committee (The Quakers), Peace, 1947
    Carl Cori, born in Austria, Physiology or Medicine, 1947
    Gerty Cori, born in Austria, Physiology or Medicine, 1947
    Wendell M. Stanley, Chemistry, 1946
    James B. Sumner, Chemistry, 1946
    John H. Northrop, Chemistry, 1946
    Emily G. Balch, Peace, 1946
    John R. Mott, Peace, 1946
    Percy W. Bridgman, Physics, 1946
    Hermann J. Muller, Physiology or Medicine, 1946
    Cordell Hull, Peace, 1945
    Isidor Isaac Rabi, born in Austria, Physics, 1944
    Joseph Erlanger, Physiology or Medicine, 1944
    Herbert S. Gasser, Physiology or Medicine, 1944
    Otto Stern, born in then Germany, now Poland, Physics, 1943
    Edward A. Doisy, Physiology or Medicine, 1943

    Ernest Lawrence, Physics, 1939
    Pearl S. Buck, Literature, 1938
    Clinton Davisson, Physics, 1937
    Eugene O'Neill, Literature, 1936
    Carl Anderson, Physics, 1936
    Harold C. Urey, Chemistry, 1934
    George R. Minot, Physiology or Medicine, 1934
    William P. Murphy, Physiology or Medicine, 1934
    George H. Whipple, Physiology or Medicine, 1934
    Thomas H. Morgan, Physiology or Medicine, 1933
    Irving Langmuir, Chemistry, 1932
    Jane Addams, Peace, 1931
    Nicholas M. Butler, Peace, 1931
    Sinclair Lewis, Literature, 1930
    Frank B. Kellogg, Peace, 1929
    Arthur H. Compton, Physics, 1927
    Charles G. Dawes, Peace, 1925
    Robert A. Millikan, Physics, 1923
    Woodrow Wilson, Peace, 1919
    Theodore W. Richards, Chemistry, 1914
    Elihu Root, Peace, 1912
    Albert A. Michelson, born in then Germany, now Poland, Physics, 1907
    Theodore Roosevelt, Peace, 1906

    USA: 353

    Total for Anglo-America:376

    So, Latin America's 15 vs Anglo-America's 376......

    including all sorts of different Hispanics.
     
    Minor point, Ron.In my experience, Hispanics in the USA who come from South America tend to be both Whiter and better educated than Hispanics from Mexico/Central America.Unfortunately, the bulk of the immigrants streaming into the USA do not come from South America.

    In fact, since Britain has always been culturally somewhat offset from the Continent, in some respects Latin America might be culturally closer to France or even Russia than North America.
     
    Which, again, doesn't exactly make them better prepared for fitting into an Anglo society like the USA.

    One might further note that there is a bit of variation in this pattern.Argentina, for example, has long had a rather complex relationship with Anglo culture.Cf the part-English Jorge Luis Borges for one manifestation of Argentina's interactions with the Anglosphere.
    , @syonredux

    including all sorts of different Hispanics.
     
    Minor point, Ron.In my experience, Hispanics in the USA who come from South America tend to be both Whiter and better educated than Hispanics from Mexico/Central America.Unfortunately, the bulk of the immigrants streaming into the USA do not come from South America.

    In fact, since Britain has always been culturally somewhat offset from the Continent, in some respects Latin America might be culturally closer to France or even Russia than North America.
     
    Which, again, doesn’t exactly make them better prepared for fitting into an Anglo society like the USA.

    One might further note that there is a bit of variation in this pattern.Argentina, for example, has long had a rather complex relationship with Anglo culture.Cf the part-English Jorge Luis Borges for one manifestation of Argentina’s interactions with the Anglosphere.
    , @AP
    Fascinating account....

    Some of my anecdotes: I don't mix much socially with poor Latinos, or any poor people (I do see them often, working at an urban hospital and clinic), but here on the East Coast I have several Puerto Rican and Cuban colleagues. They seem to be much more likely to visit Europe than do Anglo peers (Italy is especially popular for them); as I noted they are fond of Russian literature, which actually resembles Latin American literature (syon mentioned Faulkner: Russians like him also and many see him as the greatest American author). I also have noticed that at parties, Latinos tend to speak more freely and naturally with Eastern Europeans than they do with Anglos, and at large parties the Latinos, Poles and Russians might be in one group, the Anglos in another.
    , @Twinkie

    In 1987 I moved to Jackson Heights, Queens...
     
    Mr. Unz, you might recall we discussed this, because you and I knew the area roughly about the same period. Intrigued by our conversation, I spoke to an acquaintance who lives in NYC who *just* moved to Jackson Heights with her wife and children. She tells me that it is now increasingly gentrified, and much more white/Asian than during the time period in question. Unsurprisingly, the crime rate there has plummeted even by the standards of NYC over the past twenty years.
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  223. syonredux says: • Website

    I’m not necessarily saying that you are wrong since I’ve never really focused on Irish/Italian comparisons, but I’m just curious about the basis for your claim.

    Thomas Sowell discusses the very slow rate of Irish economic progress in the USA in Ethnic America *:

    P 36: “The Irish were the slowest rising of the European ethnic groups”

    P 37: Sowell notes that the Italians went into business more often then the Irish did

    I know that you are not fond of Barone, but he makes the comparison:

    there was a lot of upward mobility among these groups — most spectacularly among Jews, but also among Italians, Poles, and other minorities who exceeded national-income averages by the 1950s. It was matched during these years also by the cumulative but slower upward mobility of Irish Catholics who arrived between the 1840s and 1890s.

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/388614/path-forward-immigration-michael-barone

    * I’m sure that you’ve read it, but, if you haven’t, I recommend it.It’s been years since I last cracked it (I had to scrounge around to locate my copy), but I found it very informative:

    http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-America-History-Thomas-Sowell/dp/0465020755

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ron Unz

    Thomas Sowell discusses the very slow rate of Irish economic progress in the USA in Ethnic America *...I know that you are not fond of Barone, but he makes the comparison
     
    Well, Obviously I've read Barone's pretty good book and I've also read Sowell's excellent one at last a couple of times. But Barone doesn't have any sort of sociological background and he's not particularly quantitative, so I just can't take seriously a summary sentence or two he randomly throws out. Obviously, the Irish were slow-rising, but they arrived at during an entirely different historical era, and the comparison was usually made to the Germans and Scandinavians.

    When you stated your surprising claim, Sowell's contrast between the Irish focus on politics compared to the Italian route of small business was one of the first things that came to my mind, but I just didn't think he argued that one path was so much more successful than another. I've now dug out and glanced at the copy I'd bought and read in the early 1980s, and I think my recollection was generally correct. You might want to look at pp. 5, 41-42, 126-129 of the 1981 paperback edition.

    Sowell notes that while Irish income is 3% above the national average, Italian income is 12% higher. However, being an experienced sociologist, he also notes that Italians are especially heavily concentrated in high cost-of-living cities that may explain part of that. He also notes that it's very possible the most upwardly mobile Irish no longer self-identify as such. There are just too many uncertainites in these things. (Incidentally, I suspect one major mistake Sowell might possibly have made is that he accidentally lumped in the Scots-Irish with the Irish Irish, and the former are a particularly rural and low-income group. I discovered this common misidentification problem when I analyzed the GSS dataset for my Race/IQ series a couple of years ago).

    Regarding education, the Irish are at or above the national average, in 1969 Italians over 35 were still less than two-thirds as likely to have completed college as the average American, and were very much under-represented in professional positions, in NYC even relative to blacks.

    The Irish arrived much earlier and pursued different avenues than the Italians. So if you pick and choose certain metrics, they did better, but if you pick and choose other metrics they did worse. My impression has always been that their socio-economic trajectories were roughly comparable, and that has been the impression of everyone I know. So if you want to convince me that the Italians did enormously better than the Irish (or vice-versa), you'll really need a lot more than a couple of vague sentences.

    My impression is that you're just some sort of ideologically-agitated English-Lit type, who tends to Google and cut-and-paste a great deal about other things, without necessarily having a deep understanding of what you're reading or quoting. I should probably get back to my own work, but I do promise to take your views on Chaucer quite seriously.
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  224. syonredux says: • Website
    @AP


    Mexicans had a reputation as hard workers.

    Cliche no.103 of the race replacement school

     

    Many clichés are based on reality. That's the reputation.

    Cliche no.103 of the race replacement school

    There was a lot of intermarriage between Mexicans and working class white Catholics.

    How do the children define themselves? As Europeans or Mestizos?The ones that I know in CA are all “browner than thou.”
     
    I don't know. Since Mestizos are themselves about 40% European descent, these half-Mestizos are about 70% European. If they want to get far, they'll be Hispanic on university and scholarship applications.

    I find it very odd that people seem to think that saying that Mexican Amerinds/Mestizos are less prone to criminal violence than Blacks is some kind of ringing endorsement.It is , after all, a frightfully low bar….
     
    They're comparable to working class or poor white areas. I doubt that Mexican areas are any more dangerous than Boston's Irish poor areas.

    Many clichés are based on reality. That’s the reputation.

    But, I take it that you are less fond of the cliche that Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds are not very bright?

    I don’t know. Since Mestizos are themselves about 40% European descent,

    On average.Some are more.Others are less.And, of course, the USA is also receiving quite a few pure Hispanic Amerinds….

    these half-Mestizos

    Awkward phrase

    are about 70% European. If they want to get far, they’ll be Hispanic on university and scholarship applications.

    And the other point that I keep on making.How is the USA going to function as the Anglo Euro portion goes down?How long will Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds keep on getting affirmative action set asides at the expense of the evil Euro Anglos?When will the breaking point be reached?

    They’re comparable to working class or poor white areas.

    So, again, they’re just less violent than Blacks.How heartwarming.

    I doubt that Mexican areas are any more dangerous than Boston’s Irish poor areas.

    And the Irish are, of course, a famously pugnacious group.Talking to Ron has prompted me to look through my old copy of Sowell’s Ethnic America, and the accounts of Irish violence are quite shocking.On page 39, for example, he notes how the Irish responded with mob violence to practically every ethnic group that they encountered in America: the Chinese, the Italians, the Germans, the Jews, etc.

    Well, on the other hand, educated Latinos tend to love Russian literature.

    Which would be great, if the United States were Russia…..

    Latin American social structure is not unlike that of Russia before the Revolution.

    Again, not exactly a ringing endorsement….

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    Many clichés are based on reality. That’s the reputation.

    But, I take it that you are less fond of the cliche that Hispanic Mestizos/Amerinds are not very bright?
     
    Well, they aren't very bright, just as Poles and Irish weren't very bright 100 years ago.
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  225. D. K. says:
    @Truth

    Fred Reed’s screed, here, utterly misrepresenting John Derbyshire’s writings on Hispanics, is “an internationally recognized scholarly thesis,” Zippy?
     
    LMAO! Relax there, Noam Chomsky, I was referring to the Flynn Effect itself.

    I already have solved the Flynn Effect [supra]. Let’s move on and solve the mystery of how all of those Haitians came to be HIV-positive, back in the ’80s, when none of them was an intravenous drug user or homosexual!?!

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