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Mexican Intelligence - #607
Gray Matter in a Brown Package
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I spent three decades covering the military and have never seen a more insightful piece than this, in the New York Times of all places, by Bradley Manning, on how the Pentagon controls the press. Well worth a read.

Latinos are now seventeen percent of the population, and the president is doing everything he can to increase that proportion. Will they assimiliate successfully? There are many reasons for suspecting that they will not, and others for suspecting that they will. A crucial sub-question is whether they are as intelligent as whites. Many quietly think not. Asking about racial intelligence is forbidden, which raises the quite reasonable thought, “Uh-huh, and we know why it is forbidden, don’t we?” You only forbid a question if you think you won’t like the answer.

What is the evidence?

Those who suspect (or in many cases, hope) that Latinos are irremediably stupid point usually to two data sets. The first is the scores of Latinos on the National Assessment of Educational Progress, NAEP. These show Latinos to be ahead of blacks in reading and arithmetic, but below whites and, more damningly, that the gap does not decrease in the second and third generation. The second data set is the assertion that Mexicans have a mean IQ of 87, barely two points above blacks and close to the figure, 85, that was once regarded as indicating borderline retardation.

These are legitimate data, in the sense that they were derived by intelligent people trying to determine the facts. The thoughtful will not dismiss them. On the other hand, if data contradict each other, or are inconsistent with observation, one may wonder about them. Are they wonderable?

Before going further, a word on the question of IQ. On one hand, you have the politically correct, who simply repeat unendingly that intelligence doesn’t exist, and any way can’t be measured, and can’t be defined, and is biased, and anyway is a social construct, and so on. This is argument by unanimous unrelenting assertion. On the other hand, you have the vociferous Race Realists, as they call themselves. These began as (and still are) people with the intellectual honesty to look at racial issues—crime, education, illegitimacy, intelligence—that one must never talk about. Unfortunately, their position under the pressure of ideological warfare hardened and they ceased to be able to see the many inconsistencies and contradictions in their beliefs. That is another column. My point here is that their position is not nearly a clear as they make it seem.

My best take on the question: I live in central Mexico, just below Guadalajara. I cannot see that people here are any less intelligent that white Americans. But this raises the question: How great must a gap be to be noticeable? Is the alleged thirteen-point deficit too small to be visible? I tend to doubt it, but I don’t know.

Another tack: I reasoned that while I couldn’t judge the country as a whole, half of which is of the middle class (much of it, Americans would say, lower middle-class) and the other a peasantry, I could compare people in professions with which I am familiar: journalism, medicine, general administration (bank clerks, realtors, and such), dentistry, pilots, and computer techs.

I can’t see a difference. Newspaper columnists write in grammatical, complex, insightful Spanish, equal to writing in, say, the Washington Post. The radio station of the Universidad de Guadalajara is at least as sophisticated culturally as that of American University, which I listened to for years. Professionals in general seem no less bright than American.

IQists will reply that these are the few smart Mexicans in a country of 115 million. Well, maybe. Note, though, that America has a very effective system for finding the bright (SATs, etc.) in all social strata of the country. Mexico does not. If you have an IQ of 150 in a remote village, that is where you will keep on having it.

Well, I thought next, how many bright Mexicans do I know? For purposes of this column, let us assume that an IQ of 130 or better, which qualifies you for Mensa, is bright. This is the upper two percent of the general white population. I have known a lot of Mensans and their equivalents, and have a pretty good eye for the qualified.

Now, the IQist response to any examples I may give predictably will be threefold. First, “Well, Fred, you are reasonably bright, and bright people hang out with other bright people. So your sample is highly skewed.” True. On the other hand, VI and I are not sociable, and have encountered such brights as we know among a small sample.

Second, “But Fred, you are obviously hanging out with successful professionals who have been genetically selected for intelligence.” None of those shown below have college-educated parents. We do not know any Mexicans with money.

Three, “Fred, all the bright people are of the ten percent of whites in the population.” See below and do your own photometry.

MexIQ3-Jasmin.jpg

Jasmín, 17, daughter of Rolfe, behind her, and Marisól, Mexicana. Clearly a Norwegian. When not in high school, she writes for a local newspaper and sometimes tends bar at Cheers, a bar/restaurant recently founded by her parents. I put her at Mensa level. (“Mensa” in Spanish means “fool.” I refer to the social club.) Photo: FOE staff.

 

Natalia, stepdaughter, currently in university. This kid is way bright, even by my snotty and elitist standards. At 22, she could certainly hold her own on any of the sites that publish FOE, though in Spanish. At age twelve she would run through three adult books on a slow weekend. Note low albedo. Photo: FOE Staff

 

MexIQ-Tona.jpg

Tona, ghastly cellphone photo. Another white European. Decidedly not from a wealthy family. They don’t have a computer so their kids come to our house to do online homework. Vi noticed that he was something of a flash and since, like all sensible small boys, he is interested in octopuses and squids, we bought him a roughly sixth-grade book on marine biology and, on a why-not basis, a 900-page biology text. He would grow into it, we figured. Tona didn’t figure this. He simply began reading it. Slowly, we presume without evidence, but reading it. Tona is 9.

Violeta, grad in lit of the University of Guadalajara. She teaches Spanish to gringos, most of whom are woefully unprepared to learn a language, having no grasp of the grammar of their own language. Typically they regard her as an unlettered campesiana, which is to say that they have invented the art of condescending upward. This puts them in a category with the Wright brothers. She multitasks, as I write being in the middle of Robert Graves’ two-volume thing on mythology, the Old Testament as grist for Graves, Proust on her cell phone, just finished Justine, tying them all in with the Greeks, Eur, Aris, Soph, and Aesch, which she has liked since doing Lysistrata in university theater. ‘Bout what the average gringa reads, Ireckon.

MexIQ-Books.jpg

Violeta’s bookshelves. Illiterate by definition, she can’t read them, but is attracted to shiny covers and bright colors. You know, like beads. Lit, linguistics, philosophy.

What does the foregoing prove? Nothing. It could be coincidence. Most assuredly, the examples are exceptions (but so would they be in the US). So are the several kids I know who have learned good English in central Mexico. How many American kids do you know who have learned any language at all, anywhere?

Proves nothing. Certainly anecdotal. Might lead one to suspect, though.


(Reprinted from Fred on Everything by permission of author or representative)
• Category: Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Hispanics, IQ, Mexico 
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  1. Reader
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    I like Fred Reed’s writings but this article is just silly.

    Sure, you have a small upper-class of white Mexicans of higher IQs.

    But most Mexicans are Mestizos, of whom the average admixture among the lower classes seems to be:

    59% Amerindian
    34% European [mostly Spaniard]
    and 6% black

    These mestizos aren’t very bright. In fact, from my personal experiences, they seem to be just as dumb as blacks.

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  2. 22pp22
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    I have lived in Korea (which I don’t much like) and Central America (which I love). Who is smarter on average? Koreans by a mile. Sorry, it’s OBVIOUS. People like bank-clerks can be painfully thick in Guatemala.

    Having made that observation, I will grit my teeth, do my job (I came close to quitting yesterday) and pray that I can save up enough money to support my wife, myself and my stepdaughter in comfort in Costa Rica.

    I can then consign Korea to the lost room and move on with my life.

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  3. old soak
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    Nice to have some counter to the impression we get of Hispanics up in America, of chunky, phlegmatic leaf-blowers / landscapers / food service workers / etc.

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  4. European
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    They may not look Norwegian, but all three women look Spanish.

    The Spanish are European, with maybe a little bit of Arab, Berber, and Jew mixed in.

    Mediterranean Europeans can be dark-skinned.

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  5. Anonymous
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    This is also true of white people though.

    Most white people are not very bright. They just aren’t. It is only the whites who have mixed with Jewish ancestry and a small amount of Nordic whites who are very bright. The rest not so much.

    The Irish are about as smart as Mexicans after all.

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  6. gcochran
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    You see the same trends in an international assessment like PISA.

    US PISA scores: reading 500, math 487, science 502

    Mexican PISA scores: reading 425, math 419, science 416

    But of course personal interactions with a few individuals trump national surveys.

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  7. Sorry Fred, but I have to agree with the other commentators. You’re small sample size doesn’t refute the depressing annual test scores of Hispanics in the United States. Granted, Hispanics are a mixed lot, with Cubans and other more European-based stock, but the vast majority of Hispanics are Mestizos with an average IQ of ~90. Pointing out the occasional Euro-Hispanic or top 5% Mestizo doesn’t change the reality on ground.

    None of this is to trash Hispanics. My IQ is ~124. Not bad, but there are plenty of people above me. That doesn’t make them superior to me in a grand moral sense, but it does make them superior at physics. The same is true for Hispanics. For most part, they seem like enjoyable people, a lot more fun than the Germans that I knew. However, I know which of those two I’d choose to build a modern, technological society.

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  8. Harry
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    Has it occurred to anyone that Mexican immigrants to the U.S. are a negatively selected bunch?

    Hereditarians love to claim that the high achievement of immigrants from places like Nigeria, India, the Philippines, the Caribbean, and the Middle East, despite the low average IQs in those areas, is due to positive selection, that we’re getting the top 1% elite. That’s a reasonable claim.

    But if positive selection for immigrants is a thing, then it logically follows that so is negative selection.

    And here is the data on what kind of Mexicans we’re getting:

    “For 2010, we estimate that 80 percent of adult illegal immigrants have not completed high school or have only a high school education. Other research has found similar results.23 As Table 6 shows, less-educated legal immigrant households with children have extremely high rates of welfare use. And legalization would create a very large number of new less-educated legal immigrants.”

    http://cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011

    The vast majority of these people have nothing beyond a high school education, if that! In other words, they’re below average even Mexico’s standards.

    Contrary to what someone above claimed, there are plenty of college-educated and middle class Mestizos in Mexico (and even most Mexican “Whites” have some Amerindian ancestry). It’s just that these people don’t immigrate to the U.S. in any significant number.

    Add to that America’s generous welfare programs and citizenship laws, and this means we attract lots of freeloaders as well.

    Now if someone said that America’s economy doesn’t need unskilled and uneducated laborers, I’d completely agree. I think illegal immigrants should be encouraged to return home and that we should adopt a point-based immigration system like Canada’s. I just don’t think we should rush to conclusions about the real potential of Mexicans based on the performance of their dregs.

    Also contrary to popular mythology: America did not accept every immigrant that arrived here from Europe a century ago. Many of the dumbest and most criminal were sent back, especially those from Southern and Eastern Europe. The ones that remained were more intelligent and enterprising on average. There’s no reason we couldn’t send the dumber Mexican immigrants back as well.

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  9. Harry
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    As for PISA scores, Mexico actually outperforms the much whiter Argentina. Bizarre, I know! Better ignore that pesky data point!

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  10. rod1963
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    A good day to you Mr. Reed.

    Having grown up and lived among them in CA for the last 45 years, my view is a mixed one. And it boils down to this:

    The whiter the Mexican the smarter they are. The smart ones are interchangeable with the whites in the brains dept(my dentist some doctors I have ). But they are few in number compared to the low IQ day laborer class and free loading scam artists that constitute the vast bulk of illegals in the U.S. and are the ones most whites encounter.

    Now the big problem isn’t the Mexicans here per se. BUT our idiot government’s welfare program that is a magnet for them but is also creating a vast permanent underclass of mouth breathing morons composed of blacks, Mestizos and other 3rd world groups that are totally dependent on handouts to exist.

    The movie Idiotocracy and Kornbluth’s story “The Marching Morons” come to mind.

    Then factor in our obsession with off-shoring as much work as possible to Asia and automating as much of our skilled workforce out of existence as well and you have a time bomb. Because this leaves the vast bulk of Americans SOOL when it comes to jobs. The add to this unholy stew our rickety economy and the fact one day it will stop sending checks to over half the people and watch these these people tear the country apart.

    The business and political elites will have no one to blame but themselves.

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  11. Aaron Gross
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    Unfortunately, [the Race Realists'] position under the pressure of ideological warfare hardened and they ceased to be able to see the many inconsistencies and contradictions in their beliefs. That is another column. My point here is that their position is not nearly a clear as they make it seem.

    I hope you’ll write that other column sometime. I’ve been following “race realist” websites since the 1990s, and I’ve also noticed over the years how they’ve been getting more and more closed-minded and sclerotic. It used to be about truth, now it’s about ideology and the culture war. Although Ron Unz himself is an exception to that.

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  12. Harry
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    Aaron, do you have an email address you can be contacted at? I have some critiques of HBD/race realism that might interest you, but this isn’t the ideal format to discuss them. If you wish to create an email for this purpose to maintain your privacy, that’s fine as well.

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  13. Dave Pinsen
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    Are “c-fold” paper towels common in Mexico? Do they tend to be placed in the dispensers the right way, with the “c” facing down (to facilitate grabbing one)?

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  14. Gordo
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    So you hang around with the ethnic Spanish ruling elite in Mexico and say they are as smart as Europeans.

    Fred, you are right!

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  15. syon
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    1.As you have noted, anecdotes like these are worthless.

    2. If you really want to persuade us that the average IQ of Amerinds and heavily Amerind Mestizos is equal to the White European average, you really need to select better examples.

    Violeta: Based on her photo, she looks completely White. Useless even as an anecdote.

    Jasmin: Based on her photo, she looks completely White. Useless even as an anecdote.

    Natalia: Based on her photo, she might have some Amerind ancestry. On the other hand, she might not. Quasi-useful as an anecdote.

    Tona: Based on the photo, seems to have a fair amount of Amerind ancestry. Useful as an anecdote.

    So, 4 individuals, 3 of whom do little to nothing towards advancing your argument.

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  16. IC
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    Anecdotal evidence vs scholar data. People of low intelligence judge things based on their feeling and anecdotal evidence. People of science get their conclusion from data.

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  17. Anonymous
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    “As for PISA scores, Mexico actually outperforms the much whiter Argentina. Bizarre, I know! Better ignore that pesky data point!

    Good point. You made me take a closer look at the data. Doing some digging, i noticed that 36% of Argentinian students reported repeating a grade, whereas only 15 % of Mexican students had. The OECD average is 12%.

    So clearly there is either something fundamentally wrong with Argentinia’s education system, or the student sample in Argentina doing PISA is not as elite as the Mexican sample.

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  18. IC
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    White racists actually use the same anecdotal evidence or their feeling to disprove East Asian intelligence. At end, less intelligent people are incapable to tell difference between fact and opinion. To them, every thing is matter of opinions. They argue with their feeling and preference. They deny the world as it is; only believe the world as they wish.

    Low intelligence = low perception of reality = low achievement = social underclass.

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  19. I don’t see the point of this article. We should oppose Mexicans coming here not because of their IQ but because of their culture, a mixture of Indian and Spanish, both of which are undesirable from the point of view of culture. The Spanish in Mexico are not pure but European enough, but Spain was always marginal, culturally and economically. The Indians are passive and inert. We don’t want them and we only might need them as agricultural laborers, not permitted citizenship.

    Even very smart people, like Chinese and South Asians, may be undesirable culturally, even though the high tech companies like them.

    Our own population is pretty low on the IQ scale. We have a majority who are black, brown, and white trash. Our educated people are less and less truly educated.

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  20. Lurker
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    Anon – Most white people are not very bright. They just aren’t. It is only the whites who have mixed with Jewish ancestry and a small amount of Nordic whites who are very bright.

    Utter bullshit.

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  21. Bruce
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    I’ve been reading Aaron’s comments since the early 2000s. They haven’t changed a lot since then.
    If the race-realists are correct, then Mexican genotypic IQ is probably somewhere in the low to mid 90s (based on a Brit norm of 100) which isn’t bad by world standards. Then again, maybe the race-realists are wrong and the San are just as intelligent as the Ashkenazim.

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  22. Fred’s loyalty to his late-married family is commendable. And he has done the right thing: he enjoys Mexican society so he has moved to Mexico rather than lobby government to move Mexico here.

    I don’t like Mexican culture. I’m a huge critic of American anti-culture, but I don’t like Mexican culture either. Poor aesthetics, dilapidated standards, patron-peon economics. And the pop aspect is just ridiculous. Like a society of 12-year old boys.

    Mexico can stay there, America can stay here, and we will get along just fine.

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  23. Barnabas
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    How many times is Fred going to write the same column?

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  24. Fred, Fred, Fred…. you are a good writer and a good person but you are clueless how science works. It isn’t exciting and it never jumps to simple answers to complex questions. Science is a mind state of perpetually asking for more detail that can be confirmed but not by the way you think Fred. For starters please stop with the individual examples as if that proves anything at all about the group. Data talks, gut feelings babble. Know your strengths and weaknesses Fred, before you talk about IQ and what it means and what it doesn’t mean. You have lots of reading to do, as well as a large shift in your methodology of thinking.

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  25. Mike
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    I have staff professionally IQ tested before they work for us. We hire across the spectrum but the tests do save us from the odd mistake – great personality but functionally mentally retarded as an example.

    Because of this I have actual experience with looking at people and having a good clue as to what the IQ will be. The odds of any of the people in your photos being 130+ on a real IQ test (not some online BS) is close to zero. I’m not remotely basing this on ethnicity/race. People with real IQ’s over 130 NEVER have the kind eyes look that all of your subjects do. Subjective on my part but also true.

    I think you are missing what IQ is. It is not “intelligence” in all its forms – it sounds like you have fallen in into this common trap. IQ, explained simply, is the ability to look at a complicated spreadsheet and understand it. It is also to a large degree having the mental desire to want to look at and understand the spreadsheet. Reading Proust and IQ have a fairly weak correlation. Below a certain level it is true that Proust will just be words on a page but reading Proust is primarily a romantic thing to do – which is a form of intelligence that is highly developed in Mexicans.

    For a technical role IQ is king. For anything else high IQ can definitely be a hindrance. Most police departments wont hire high IQ applicants because they don’t want them to get bored by the drudgery of the job and leave.

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  26. Big Bill
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    Sad to see this from Fred. I can point to bright blacks of my acquaintance in the same manner. The problem is the ideology of equality. For hundreds of years Mexicans and Texans have gotten along fine. The bright Mexicans have been encouraged to greater things and the dumb ones employed in scut jobs. That could have continued forever. Unfortunately, the ideology of white oppression and equality has jacked up the costs to an astronomical level, engendered white self-hatred, and stoked Mexican racial irredentism. If we would just feed, clothe, medicate, educate and hospitalize Mexican peasants the way their OWN government does (meaning little if anything) they might be cost effective in America. But we can’t.

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  27. Jon
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    “I’m not remotely basing this on ethnicity/race. People with real IQ’s over 130 NEVER have the kind eyes look that all of your subjects do. Subjective on my part but also true.”

    Malcolm Gladwell has written a lot about how accurate first impressions are. He reiterates in “What the Dog Saw” that peoples’ impressions of interview candidates usually change very little whether they’re giving 30 minutes to evaluate the interviewee, 5 minutes, just a handshake, or often just a picture.

    So Mike may have a point as to his ability to look at a picture of someone and make a good guess at their IQ. I’m curious, Mike, what is it that you see in someone’s eyes that makes you guess “smart”?

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  28. I have no problem that some groups of people are smarter than others, I don’t know if it is written in stone, but it may be. The Japanese are generally intelligent but I would rather be a dumb American than a Japanese, talk about conformity and status. And I often think of the smart Harvard and Yale trained people running Wash DC and the markets – that doesn’t seem to be working very well, at least for us dumb Americans.

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  29. David
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    Going by the pics, the author seems prone to notice intelligence in attractive people. As a math teacher I have reluctantly noted that the lighter the skin, typically, the better at math. I have also noticed that better looking students tend to be better students.

    I think Hondurans are definitely dumber than the average white American. Mean IQ in low 80′s. Mexicans are a little less obviously dumb, but they all share a culture that quite obviously limits those that express it to a distracted and corrupt polity. Why aren’t Mexicans ashamed to come to the US illegally, expecting free healthcare plus affirmative action? Because shame gets in the way of exploiting stupid Americans.

    Someday, this mixture is going to explode. 80% of progressives are not prepared for life in a white minority US. I hope I’m wrong.

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  30. Harry
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    Weird how the commentators criticized Fred Reed for relying on anecdotal evidence and then made their case using anecdotal evidence of their own. “I give out IQ tests to my staff and I’ve noticed…” “I’m a math teacher and I’ve noticed…”

    The few people who did cite data, like Gregory Cochran, only regurgitated the usual cherry-picked and easily countered data points.

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  31. Harry
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    FWIW, I’ve no problem with people opposing Mexican immigration on cultural and/or economic grounds. I oppose it myself on economic grounds.

    I do have a problem with obnoxious ideologues reciting the lazy and sloppy arguments about Race/IQ while ignoring any evidence which contradicts their views.

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  32. Dave Pinsen
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    “As for PISA scores, Mexico actually outperforms the much whiter Argentina. Bizarre, I know! Better ignore that pesky data point!”

    If memory serves, the average educational level completed by illegal immigrants from Mexico to the US is 4th grade. Since 4th grade dropouts don’t get tested as part of PISA, Mexico’s PISA scores may overstate the country’s academic aptitude.

    “Spain was always marginal, culturally and economically”

    No.

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  33. Harry,

    I do have a problem with obnoxious ideologues reciting the lazy and sloppy arguments about Race/IQ while ignoring any evidence which contradicts their views.

    Who cares whether you have a problem with it or not? The evidence points one direction – and it’s not your direction. The laziness and sloppiness is on your side.

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  34. marty
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    Following up Mike’s comment re IQ and lit reading, in the ’90s I had a failsafe test for undateable women: did they gush over “Cien Anos de Soledad”?

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  35. not a hacker
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    Dave, one of Spain’s most famous and decorated writers, Unamuno, used to argue that any predominantly Catholic country is going to be prone to economic marginality. It’s the fatalism – a drag on dynamism. Italy’s always suffered from a similar syndrome, though to a lesser extent.

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  36. It is not IQ which makes some groups acceptable or unacceptable. It is their culture, their habits, their way of life. Negroes stink! And they are ugly. No amount of IQ makes any difference. They have no sense of what is proper. They are vulgar and disgusting. That is all you need to know.

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  37. Harry
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    “If memory serves, the average educational level completed by illegal immigrants from Mexico to the US is 4th grade. Since 4th grade dropouts don’t get tested as part of PISA, Mexico’s PISA scores may overstate the country’s academic aptitude.”

    I’ve already pointed out above why illegal immigrants from Mexico are probably below average by Mexican standards and thus not a representative sample.

    But, yeah, when you’re a bigot who has already made up his mind, you’ll find any excuse to continue believing what you want.

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  38. Harry
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    “Who cares whether you have a problem with it or not? The evidence points one direction – and it’s not your direction. The laziness and sloppiness is on your side.”

    Note how the ideologue doesn’t even bother with an argument.

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  39. Anonymous
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    Harry, take a look at the rate of repeating grades. It’s far higher in Argentina than mexico.

    “Good point. You made me take a closer look at the data. Doing some digging, i noticed that 36% of Argentinian students reported repeating a grade, whereas only 15 % of Mexican students had. The OECD average is 12%.

    So clearly there is either something fundamentally wrong with Argentinia’s education system, or the student sample in Argentina doing PISA is not as elite as the Mexican sample.”

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  40. syon
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    “Spain was always marginal, culturally and economically”

    Dave Pinsen:”No.”

    Actually, even during the Golden Age of the Spanish Empire, Spain was an underperformer. As Murray notes in his HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT, “its [Spain's] output even during its best years was not remarkable compared to the other major contributors [in Western Europe] “(338). What’s more, Spain’s period of flowering was remarkably brief:

    “Between 1650 and 1850 -during the same two centuries when Britain, France, and Germany were producing hundreds of significant figures and even Italy in its decline produced several dozen-Spain produced a single major figure (Goya) and 11 significant figures.” (HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT, 338).

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  41. syon
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    Some comments from Allan Wall that seem germane:

    “But the Mexican educational system also includes a vast public schools system which educates about 90% of students. (Education levels in Mexico are lower than those in the United States. Only 35 percent of Mexican adults have achieved a high school degree, compared with 87 percent in the U.S.)”

    “It has a white upper class controlling the lion’s share of the wealth. (See Shackled To An [Ungrateful] Corpse By Steve Sailer on May 5, 2000). If you’ve watched Mexican media or seen winners of Mexican beauty pageants, you see that the Euro-Mexicans are dominant there as well.

    This Mexican upper class is of mostly Spanish descent, but there are also Jewish, Arab, British, American, European, Armenian and East Asian elements. ”

    “A chart compiled by Steve Sailer of Lynn and Vanhanen’s work on national IQ shows the mean IQ of the United States at 98, while the mean IQ of Mexico is 87 (with Mexican-Americans in the United States as 88). How was the 87 figure for Mexico arrived at? They calculated the white population of Mexico (at 9%) as having an IQ of 96, blended with Indian and mestizo children of southern Mexico.

    In another source, published in 2002, by Lynn, Backhoff and Contreras (a Mexican researcher), since Spaniards (in Spain) have an average IQ of 98, the average IQ of white Mexicans was estimated at 98, with 94.3 for mestizos and 83.3 for Mexican Indians. (Ethnic and Racial Differences on the Standard Progressive Matrices in Mexico, Journal of Biosocial Science, January 2005.)

    More recently, in his 2012 reply to Ron Unz on VDARE.com, Dr. Lynn quotes the figures of 88 IQ for Mexicans in Mexico, and 89 for U.S. Hispanics.”

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  42. @norman ravitch (36)

    I disagree with that categorical statement. My impression is that the negro community is stratifying pretty heavily along time-preference lines. If we simply stopped subsidizing dysgenics (welfare) I think we’d see some striking improvement.

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  43. Ron Unz
    says:
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    Although my personal evidence in this topic is far weaker than Fred Reed’s, I have come to identical conclusions based on extensive quantitative and technical analysis and I’d suggest that commentators interested in the topic explore my Race/IQ series of a couple of years ago, consisting of a major article and over a dozen follow-up columns, amounting to perhaps 30,000 words.

    Naturally, my original piece provoked a storm of constroversy and angry responses across the rightwing blogosphere, with Richard Lynn and one of his closest academic colleagues weighing in as well. But once the dust settled, all my arguments stood, and indeed over the year or two that followed, several of my bitterest critics eventually conceded that my basic analysis was probably correct. Here are a few of the links, including the section of my main Race/IQ piece dealing with Mexicans:

    http://www.unz.com/topic/raceiq/?ItemView=List&ItemOrder=ASC

    http://www.unz.com/article/race-iq-and-wealth/#implications-for-the-american-immigration-debate

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-a-coda-on-mexican-american-iq/

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-super-flynn-effects-in-germans-jews-and-hispanics/

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-the-entire-series-and-debate/

    As various commentators on both sides of the issues have correctly suggested, people believe what they want to believe and widely rely upon assumptions and suppositions, many of which turn out to be incorrect upon detailed analysis.

    I believe that the factual evidence in favor of my “Weak IQ Hypothesis” is simply overwhelming, and I was very gratified to have it favorably cited and accepted by Nicholas Wade in his recent book. Frankly, anyone who bothered actually looking at the historical and international data gathered by Richard Lynn over the last half-century would immediately notice the obvious pattern, and only the ideological rigidity of both camps in the decades-long debate prevented generations of disputants from seeing this.

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  44. Harry writes in #38:

    “Note how the ideologue doesn’t even bother with an argument.”

    Yet dear old Harry wrote in #12:

    “Aaron, do you have an email address you can be contacted at? I have some critiques of HBD/race realism that might interest you, but this isn’t the ideal format to discuss them.

    Harry keeps his anti-HBD arguments on the down low, but demands that others publish their pro-HBD arguments forthright, even though the only point I wished to make was that Harry was a crotchety fool.

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  45. The worst part of Nicholas Wade’s A Troublesome Inheritance was that he relied on the IQ agnosticism of Ron Unz and so sapped the arguments he made in the second half of his book of any testable precision.

    Unz’s “detailed analysis” is obfuscatory and misleading, as numerous informed commentators have already pointed out, from Greg Cochran (see comments) to Richard Lynn himself.

    Ron is right in one comment, however, when he writes that “people believe what they want to believe” for motives only clear to them. But I think Ron’s motives are only too clear. He’s still a politician at heart, and no California politician has a future if he talks down Hispanics. So he consistently takes the positions on Hispanics (IQ, crime) that he does for the simple reason that he still sees a future for himself in politics.

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  46. Anonymous
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    Funny how commenters here view Mexico as a bunch of low iq mestizos with a small segment of elite Mexicans with mixed blood and higher iq’s.

    Doesn’t that pretty much sum up white people in America? A bunch of low iq Polish/Irish/Whatever else with a small minority of elites who are mainly Jews and Gentiles with some Jewish blood?

    People here will get upset that I’ve characterized Gentiles as low IQ, but look at the anecdotal evidence. Their IQs are roughly on par with Mexicos. White accomplishment both cultural and scientific are overwhelmingly Jewish. The middle tier and lower tier IQ whites haven’t really done much to distinguish themselves. Just like middle and lower tier Mexicans.

    So the average white guy reading this post will look at Mark Zuckerberg, Jerry Seinfeld, and Albert Einstein and say “Look, this is what all white people are like.” Meanwhile most white people shop at Walmart and watch 40 hours if TV a week.

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  47. Ron Unz
    says:
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    @Pincher Martin

    I’m glad you provided the link to the Lynn-Nyborg critique of my analysis to which I’d referred. My 2,400 response appeared a couple of days later and was list of materials I’d provided earlier.

    As everyone knows, Richard Lynn is perhaps the foremost scholarly figure in the “Strong IQist” camp and his books are very widely cited throughout the HBD-sphere. Indeed, they constituted the primary sources for my major article.

    I urge all those interested in the issue to read Lynn’s detailed critique together with my response, and decide for themselves who got the better of the argument.

    http://www.unz.com/runz/unz-on-raceiq-response-to-lynn-and-nyborg/

    Unfortunately, I’m too busy with other matters to participate in this current debate, but the 30,000 words I published back in 2012 and the 100,000 words published on the other side (whose links I include) should provide a week or two of reading to anyone sufficiently interested in the topic.

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  48. syon
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    Anonymous:”Funny how commenters here view Mexico as a bunch of low iq mestizos with a small segment of elite Mexicans with mixed blood and higher iq’s.”

    Actually, a good portion of those elite Mexicans are not of “mixed blood.”They are White.

    Anonymous:”Doesn’t that pretty much sum up white people in America?”

    Actually, no, seeing as how the vast majority of White Americans have no Amerind or Black ancestry.

    Anonymous:” A bunch of low iq Polish/Irish/Whatever else with a small minority of elites who are mainly Jews and Gentiles with some Jewish blood?”

    Up until the post-’45 period, interbreeding between White Jews and White Gentiles was quite rare, so no, that’s not true at all.

    Anonymous:”People here will get upset that I’ve characterized Gentiles as low IQ, but look at the anecdotal evidence.”

    I guess that you missed the part where people were taking Reed to task for using anecdotal evidence…

    Anonymous:” Their IQs are roughly on par with Mexicos.”

    Based on what evidence? Mexican average IQ is 87. I know of no studies that place the mean White Gentile IQ in the USA in that range.

    Anonymous:”White accomplishment both cultural and scientific are overwhelmingly Jewish.”

    Wright bros, Thomas Hunt Morgan, William Faulkner, T.S. Eliot, Henry James, William James, Charles Sanders Peirce, Josiah Willard Gibbs, Herman Melville, Thomas Edison, Ernest Orlando Lawrence, Frank Lloyd Wright, Orson Welles, Edwin Hubble, etc, etc. If I wished, I could spend all day listing distinguished White Gentile Americans. Now, to be sure, America pales besides Italy, France, England, and Germany in terms of White Gentile human accomplishment, but it utterly dwarfs Mexico. If you are curious, read Murray’s HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT. In particular, take a look at pages 247-258, and note how the bars representing the USA are the only non-European ones of any consequence.

    Anonymous:” The middle tier and lower tier IQ whites haven’t really done much to distinguish themselves. Just like middle and lower tier Mexicans.”

    Which is entirely irrelevant. Middle and lower tier people by definition do not distinguish themselves. Only upper tier people do that. And the upper tier in the USA is much more numerous (on a per capita basis) than the upper tier in Mexico.

    Anonymous:”So the average white guy reading this post will look at Mark Zuckerberg,”

    Or Bill Gates, or Steve Jobs, or William Shockley, or Linus Pauling, or Benjamin Franklin, or John Bardeen, …..

    Anonymous:” Jerry Seinfeld,”

    Do you actually think that a television comic represents something significant? That is quite sad.

    Anonymous:”and Albert Einstein”

    Or Isaac Newton, or Archimedes, or Aristotle, or Galileo, or Darwin, or Rutherford, or Faraday, or Heisenberg, or Euler, …..

    Anonymous:” and say “Look, this is what all white people are like.””

    No, he’ll actually probably think “Wow, look at what the White elite have achieved.”

    Anonymous:”Meanwhile most white people shop at Walmart and watch 40 hours if TV a week.”

    Which, again, is meaningless when people are discussing elite achievement. And Mexico has achieved far less of importance in the arts and the sciences than has America. For documentary proof of this sad fact, just count the pathetic number of Mexicans who appear in Murray’s HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT.

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  49. syon
    says:
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    Pincher Martin:”Ron is right in one comment, however, when he writes that “people believe what they want to believe” for motives only clear to them. But I think Ron’s motives are only too clear. He’s still a politician at heart, and no California politician has a future if he talks down Hispanics. So he consistently takes the positions on Hispanics (IQ, crime) that he does for the simple reason that he still sees a future for himself in politics.”

    I thin that you are wrong on this point; I think that Unz is quite sincere in his belief that the mean IQs of Mexican Mestizos and Amerinds is going to equal the White European mean really soon. I don’t agree, but I think that he is arguing in good faith.

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  50. Dave Pinsen
    says:
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    “Actually, even during the Golden Age of the Spanish Empire, Spain was an underperformer.”

    That sentence contradicts itself.

    Look, it’s clear that Spain peaked centuries ago, but let’s give credit where credit is due to Spain and Portugal for their astounding feats of ship building and globe-spanning navigation, exploration, and conquest.

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  51. Dave Pinsen
    says:
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    “People here will get upset that I’ve characterized Gentiles as low IQ, but look at the anecdotal evidence. Their IQs are roughly on par with Mexicos. White accomplishment both cultural and scientific are overwhelmingly Jewish. The middle tier and lower tier IQ whites haven’t really done much to distinguish themselves. Just like middle and lower tier Mexicans.”

    A contradictory bit of anecdotal evidence: compare the ethnic German cities in Brazil (e.g., Joinville) to similar sized cities in the north of Brazil (or in Mexico, for that matter). Joinville may not have produced any Fields medalists, but it has produced an enviable standard of living.

    Another contradictory bit of anecdotal evidence: compare the standard of living of the Mormon colony in Mexico where Mitt Romney’s relatives live to the rest of Mexico.

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  52. Davidski
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    People from third and not quite first world countries are generally dumber than those from the first world.

    The main reasons for this should be obvious, but genetic substructure is not one of them, at least not yet, because no one can accurately measure its impact on intelligence.

    Poland was below the European average in PISA rankings only 15 years ago. Now it’s near the top of the global ranking, higher than American whites, and will probably climb even further over the next few years as spending on education is increased.

    Who’s to say Mexico, or Mexicans in the US, can’t do the same with enough resources?

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  53. Aaron Gross
    says:
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    @Bruce, if my comments haven’t changed much over the last 15 years, it might be because I usually post comments when I disagree with something, not when I agree. (Posting “I agree” was considered a waste of bandwidth in Usenet culture.)

    If you look at some of my rec.arts.books posts from the late 1990s or early 2000s (quoted by others, because I usually X-No-Archived them), then you’ll see me defending people like Steve Sailer and Kevin MacDonald. I also remember defending MacDonald at sites like Ian Jobling’s, but I doubt that exists anymore.

    I am more critical of Sailer and MacDonald than I was 15 years ago, but I think that’s more because of changes in their writings than in my opinions.

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  54. Anonymous
    says:
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    “White accomplishment both cultural and scientific are overwhelmingly Jewish.”

    Newton — a mensch!

    Darwin — alt kocker!

    Okay, so those are British white folks. How about this.

    Millikan — in your minyan!

    The Wright Bros — passing as goyim!

    Goddard — just off the boat from Minsk ka Pinsk!

    Morse, Hollerith, Ritchie, Kernighan, Tukey, Shannon, Knuth, Hewlitt, Packard, Watson (take your pick), Wilson (take your pick), Nash, Gates.

    And that’s just one field which might be considered ideal for Jews. Let’s look at something pretty important for humanity, agriculture.

    Deere, McCormick, Burbank, Jefferson.

    How about applied technology? Fulton, Whitney, Edison.

    Yeah, those old stock, non-Jewish Americans/WASPs accomplished nothing.

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  55. M_Young
    says:
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    “Their IQs are roughly on par with Mexicos. White accomplishment both cultural and scientific are overwhelmingly Jewish. ”

    Edison, Wright, Wright, Shannon, Ritchie, Kernighan, Hewlitt, Packard, Millikan, Moore, Shockley, Newton, Darwin, Galton, Watson (pick one of several), Wilson (pick one of several), Goddard, Nash, Hollerith, Morse, Westinghouse, Farnsworth, Burbank, Shannon, Kernighan, Ritchie.

    Whitman, Twain, Melville, Hawthorne, Irving, James, Emerson, Browning, Carmichael, Mercer, Porter, Faulkner, McCarthy, Ford, (oh, and put Ford up above too!).

    Remind me again, what is this overwhelmingly Jewish accomplishment?

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  56. M_Young
    says:
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    Oops, repeated Shannon, Kernighan, and Ritchie. Just substitute Bell, McCormick, Whitney, Deere, Fulton, etc etc.

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  57. Lurker
    says:
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    White accomplishment both cultural and scientific are overwhelmingly Jewish.

    Utter, utter bullshit.

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  58. Doesn’t that pretty much sum up white people in America? A bunch of low iq Polish/Irish/Whatever else with a small minority of elites who are mainly Jews and Gentiles with some Jewish blood?

    No. That’s wildly off. White Americans are of mostly English and German descent. And they built a society that millions of people vote for with their feet.

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  59. Bruce
    says:
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    @ Aaron. In general, I think your arguments are made in good faith.

    I read some of the Unz articles and replies when they came out. This is from memory but I think my main criticisms were that he ignored the Polish data (which would have suggested the exact opposite of his basic argument) and that he focused on the size of N in the Irish studies (sample size in each study) but N in terms of the number of Irish studies was quite small. If a study has an N of several thousand but is a poor population sample, then N for the study is irrelevant.
    This is from memory as I don’t have time to reread the articles.

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  60. J. Toner
    says:
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    @Anonymous (#54)

    “White accomplishment both cultural and scientific are overwhelmingly Jewish.”

    Newton — a mensch!

    Darwin — alt kocker!

    Nearly all of higher mathematics, which is the sine qua non of modern science and engineering, is the product of European Christian minds: Cauchy, Riemann, Fourier, Fermat, Galois, Leibniz, Newton, Lagrange, and on and on. There would be no clever genius Einstein without the greater raw genius of Riemann.

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  61. syon
    says:
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    “Actually, even during the Golden Age of the Spanish Empire, Spain was an underperformer.”

    Dave Pinsen:”That sentence contradicts itself.”

    Not at all. It has to do with measuring the size of the frog according to the dimensions of the pond. Spain’s Golden Age is golden only according to Spain’s low standards. When one compares Spain to other Western countries during the same periods, Spain’s deficiencies become readily apparent (cf the maps showing the origins of significant figures in Europe during the period 1400-1600 and 1600-1800 in pages 301-302 of Murray’s HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT; the Iberian Peninsula is largely a white void).

    Dave Pinsen:”Look, it’s clear that Spain peaked centuries ago, but let’s give credit where credit is due to Spain and Portugal for their astounding feats of ship building and globe-spanning navigation, exploration, and conquest.”

    Sure, but one can also point to the significant exploratory work of the English, Dutch, etc. The plain fact is that the Iberian Peninsula is a zone of low achievement .

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  62. syon
    says:
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    This is not the best metric, but let’s have a look at Mexico and the Nobel prize. According to WIKIPEDIA, three people of Mexican origins have won a Nobel:

    Alfonso García Robles: With Alva Myrdal, got the Peace Prize in 1982. For what it’s worth, he looks very White in his WIKIPEDIA photo.

    Mario J. Molina: Along with Paul J. Crutzen and F. Sherwood Rowland, he got the 1995 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for studying the threat posed to the ozone layer by CFCs. Looks pretty White in his WIKIPEDIA photo.

    Octavio Paz: 1990 Nobel in Lit. Based on WIKIPEDIA photo, he might have some Amerind ancestry (or he might not).

    So, Three prizes. Total. As compared to 10 for Scotland, 15 for Australia, 23 for Canada, 74 for England , 306 for the USA, …..

    Now, all of these figures are from WIKIPEDIA, so I’m sure that one could argue about the margins…but the overall portrait of Mexican achievement is pretty dire.

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  63. M_Young
    says:
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    The real question, or two questions, are these

    1) Is the US better off for having a 20 percent ‘Hispanic’ population rather than the 5 percent i had 40-50 years ago.

    2) Are US whites better off sharing the country they, for the most part, created, with that overwhelmingly new 20 percent of the population.

    Seems to me the answer to both questions is obviously no.

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  64. With all this talk about Mexicans, Jews, Northern European, etc., let me just say: I HAVE MET PLENTY OF JEWS WHO WERE STUPID!

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  65. Syon,

    “I thin that you are wrong on this point; I think that Unz is quite sincere in his belief that the mean IQs of Mexican Mestizos and Amerinds is going to equal the White European mean really soon. I don’t agree, but I think that he is arguing in good faith.”

    How can anyone who knows anything about IQ believe that the IQs of Mexican mestizos and Amerinds will converge with European IQ?

    Look, I have my own problems with Lynn’s work, which I think is sloppy and filled with errors. I much prefer the more careful (if incomplete) work of Jason Malloy over at Human Varieties.

    But Lynn’s work is good enough to show global patterns in IQ. Toss out two dozen of his most egregious mistakes, explain away another two dozen inconvenient facts, and you’re still left in need of an explanation for those patterns.

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  66. Jews did not even begin contributing to modern science until the nineteenth century, after nationalism, Jewish emancipation and secularization began to spread across Europe.

    It’s ironic that what we now know must have been the smartest population in Europe was completely shut out of the Scientific Revolution that began on the continent in the sixteenth century. For more than three centuries, Jews were marginal to Western science and math. They contributed almost nothing to it.

    But boy did they ever make up for a late start.

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  67. syon
    says:
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    Pincher Martin:”How can anyone who knows anything about IQ believe that the IQs of Mexican mestizos and Amerinds will converge with European IQ?”

    Faith tends to override reason. Unz believes that Amerinds and Mestizos will converge with European IQ, and he will move heaven and Earth to find a way to rationalize this belief.

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  68. syon
    says:
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    Norman Ravitch:”With all this talk about Mexicans, Jews, Northern European, etc., let me just say: I HAVE MET PLENTY OF JEWS WHO WERE STUPID!”

    Sure. There are plenty of stupid people in any large population. What matters, though, is the location of the mean. The Mexican mean is in the high 80s. That has massive demographic implications

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  69. james wilson
    says:
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    I have noticed that European Mexicans seem to take care to stay that way in their reproductive choices. The married ones at least.

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  70. Syon,

    “Faith tends to override reason. Unz believes that Amerinds and Mestizos will converge with European IQ, and he will move heaven and Earth to find a way to rationalize this belief.”

    But why?

    You say I’m being unfair to Ron because I detect political motives in his intellectual positions. But he is indeed a politician, is he not? He has both run for political office and sponsored initiatives in the great state of California. Yes, he did this a long time ago, but one wonders if that bug ever leaves a person. And certainly one can see in The Unz Review the same passion to influence public affairs.

    For example, don’t you find it odd that in three major controversies Ron’s recently dealt with, he’s taken an intellectual position congruent with the interests of a major California demographic? Asians and university admissions. Hispanics and crime. Hispanics and IQ. In each case, Ron’s position would have won him a round of applause before an audience in Chinatown or the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce.

    What’s more, Ron did this while still flattering the sensibilities of those on the right who believe that HBD has some merit. It’s almost as if Ron is tailoring his public positions to appeal to the widest possible audience a center-right politician in California could hope for.

    I don’t mind Ron doing this. In fact, if conservatives want to save conservatism, it will probably be necessary for them to eventually come to terms with how they can appeal to a wider audience. But Ron shouldn’t lie to build such a coalition, and in the case of Hispanics and IQ, that’s what he’s doing.

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  71. Bruce
    says:
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    Martin,

    Unz is publishing Sailor, Derbyshire and even Sam Francis. I suspect he’s wrong about Mexican intelligence and crime but he seems to be fair and open minded.

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  72. Yes the Jews made up for a late start. They were held back by their rabbis who were like mullahs and ayatollahs.

    Had they had a more normal development they might have become less neurotically obnoxious.

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  73. syon
    says:
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    Pincher Martin:”But why?

    You say I’m being unfair to Ron because I detect political motives in his intellectual positions. But he is indeed a politician, is he not? He has both run for political office and sponsored initiatives in the great state of California. Yes, he did this a long time ago, but one wonders if that bug ever leaves a person. And certainly one can see in The Unz Review the same passion to influence public affairs.

    For example, don’t you find it odd that in three major controversies Ron’s recently dealt with, he’s taken an intellectual position congruent with the interests of a major California demographic? Asians and university admissions. Hispanics and crime. Hispanics and IQ. In each case, Ron’s position would have won him a round of applause before an audience in Chinatown or the Hispanic Chamber of Commerce.”

    PM, I could be wrong, but Unz’s work on the topic of Hispanic IQ strikes me as being too passionate in nature to be a sham. Look at all the time and effort that he has expended.That kind of fire requires real belief.Now, perhaps he has fooled me and every word he has written on this topic has been a conscious lie, but I tend to think not.

    As for why Unz believes what he does, that kind of question is pretty much unanswerable. Why are some highly intelligent people Libertarians?

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  74. Bruce,

    “Unz is publishing Sailor, Derbyshire and even Sam Francis. I suspect he’s wrong about Mexican intelligence and crime but he seems to be fair and open minded.”

    Did you miss the part where I said Ron is a center-right politician who still wants to flatter the sensibilities of conservatives?

    What better way to do this, and still remain politically viable, than by publishing the work of HBDers under the guise of media openness, while still taking issue with most of their controversial ideas.

    You end up with good will on both sides. The HBDers like you because you’re a mainstream person giving them respect and dealing with them on their own terms. (It’s much better than being called a Nazi.) The Hispanics like you because you argue passionately for the position they prefer.

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  75. Syon,

    PM, I could be wrong, but Unz’s work on the topic of Hispanic IQ strikes me as being too passionate in nature to be a sham. Look at all the time and effort that he has expended. That kind of fire requires real belief. Now, perhaps he has fooled me and every word he has written on this topic has been a conscious lie, but I tend to think not.

    Ron doesn’t seem to suffer from writer’s block, no matter what the topic. So I don’t think one can weigh his words on Hispanic IQ as a proxy for his passion. When he writes about something, the words flow.

    He also found an easy target. Richard Lynn is a sloppy scholar. This allowed Ron to focus in on those errors and other questionable methods rather than on what Lynn was good at, which was pioneering a field no one else was looking at comprehensively.

    But Ron was always looking at the trees and not the forest. When everyone told him, “It’s the forest, Ron ! Look at the forest !,” he would reply, “But look at this tree. It doesn’t belong in that kind of forest. Therefore, it must not be that kind of forest.”

    Aren’t your suspicious of someone who continually narrows their vision when they’re told to widen it?

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  76. Anonymous
    says:
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    All those accomplished Gentiles you mentioned are all dead. The white people making things happen today are all Jewish. Zuckerberg, Bezos, google guys, media, finance, politics.

    Where are the highly accomplished Gentiles today? Eminem, KFed, Bill Nye the science guy? There are obvious exceptions to this. Mormons are winners. Always have been always will be. But the common white has produced about as much value for this country as Mexicans have in the last 20 years.

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  77. Dave Pinsen
    says:
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    All those accomplished Gentiles you mentioned are all dead. The white people making things happen today are all Jewish. Zuckerberg, Bezos, google guys, media, finance, politics.

    Where are the highly accomplished Gentiles today? Eminem, KFed, Bill Nye the science guy? There are obvious exceptions to this. Mormons are winners. Always have been always will be. But the common white has produced about as much value for this country as Mexicans have in the last 20 years.

    You’re trolling. Bezos isn’t Jewish, and billionaires are a tiny minority of any group. White Americans litter less, commit fewer crimes, pay more in taxes, consume less in welfare, achieve more academically, etc. than Mexican Americans on average.

    Really, all the IQ speculation is beside the point. The salient question about immigrants is whether most Americans would enjoy living in those immigrants’ countries of origin. Because the more immigrants you get from a particular country, the more your country will resemble that country.

    Since Mexico is poorer, more violent, and more corrupt than America, why would we want to continue to import Mexico’s poorest and least educated citizens?

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  78. Lurker
    says:
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    The white people making things happen today are all Jewish. Zuckerberg, Bezos, google guys, media, finance, politics.

    Making things happen . . . not the same as making things pal.

    Facebook, Google and Amazon . . . are just applications, websites. They didnt originate the technology. With Facebook its not even clear that MZ created it. Oh sure, they may be ‘technology’ outfits now but thats what you can do with lots of cash, pay creative people to make things.

    The rise of these operations seems as much to do with financial backing and support as anything else. Just why is it that Google outlasted other, earlier, better search engines? Deeper pockets maybe? The right connections, friends in the right places? You did say they were jewish corporations after all.

    Bill Gates and Microsoft were demonized at their peak in a way which Google are still not today, despite their massive presence. You know it’s almost as if there were some extra magic ingredient they had on their side?

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  79. syon
    says:
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    Anonymous:”All those accomplished Gentiles you mentioned are all dead.”

    A few live and kicking White Gentiles: Bill Gates, Cormac McCarthy, Don DeLillo, Thomas Pynchon, Warren Buffet, Jonathan Franzen, Martin Scorsese, Terrence Malick, etc, etc . I could go on and on, but this is a nice sample.

    Anonymous:”The white people making things happen today are all Jewish.”

    Some are. Some are not. Here are some more living White Gentiles that should interest you: Peter Higgs (Nobel in physics), Alice Munro (Nobel in Lit), George Smith (Nobel in physics), Jack Kilby (Nobel in physics), etc, etc.

    Anonymous:”Zuckerberg,”

    To which I counter with Bill Gates.

    Anonymous:”Bezos,”

    Are you arguing that Jeff Bezos is Jewish? Here is his some info from his WIKIPEDIA entry:

    “Bezos was born Jeffrey Preston Jorgensen in Albuquerque, New Mexico to Jacklyn (née Gise) and Ted Jorgensen.[9] His maternal ancestors were settlers who lived in Texas, and over the generations acquired a 25,000-acre (101 km2 or 39 miles2) ranch near Cotulla. Bezos’s maternal grandfather was a regional director of the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission in Albuquerque. He retired early to the ranch, where Bezos spent many summers as a youth, working with him.[10] At an early age, he displayed mechanical aptitude – as a toddler, he tried dismantling his crib.[11]”

    Guy sounds pretty White Gentile to me. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

    Anonymous:”google guys,”

    Yep, they are Jewish. Well, Brin is. Page is half Jewish by descent.And for a White Gentile, how about Tim Berners-Lee, the inventor of the World Wide Web?

    Anonymous:”media, finance, politics.”

    You know, it’s pretty pathetic when you can’t even provide names…..

    Anonymous:”Where are the highly accomplished Gentiles today?”

    Let’s see, cut and paste:Bill Gates, Cormac McCarthy, Don DeLillo, Thomas Pynchon, Warren Buffet, Jonathan Franzen, Martin Scorsese, Terrence Malick, Peter Higgs (Nobel in physics), Alice Munro (Nobel in Lit), George Smith (Nobel in physics), Jack Kilby (Nobel in physics), etc, etc.

    The short answer, of course, is that they are all around you. Give WIKIPEDIA a whirl.

    Anonymous:”Eminem, KFed, Bill Nye the science guy?”

    Again, you have weird notions about which people are important.Why not name Cormac McCarthy, Terrence Malick, and Berners-Lee? You know, three guys who have actually done important things?

    Anonymous:”There are obvious exceptions to this. Mormons are winners.”

    Try not to put too much faith in Amy Chua. Mormons , as a group, are mid-range performers.

    Anonymous:” Always have been”

    I wouldn’t exactly call them winners during a good chunk of the 19th century, seeing as how they had to abandon a key tenet of their faith (polygamy) in order to win acceptance from mainstream American society.

    Anonymous:” always will be. ”

    Well, seeing as how they were never winners in the first place, that prediction is quite wrong.

    Anonymous:”But the common white has produced about as much value for this country as Mexicans have in the last 20 years.”

    Well, seeing as how the common Mexican is about 10 or so IQ points below the average White Gentile, that is quite false.

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  80. syon
    says:
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    Pincher Martin:”Aren’t your suspicious of someone who continually narrows their vision when they’re told to widen it?”

    By suspicious, I assume that you mean suspecting the other person of bad faith? No, I’m not. I’m an academic, and I encounter true believers every day. Just last week I listened to a highly intelligent woman (she has a PHD in biology) explain to me that “gender” (to use her word) has no biological foundation. In response to my mild objections, she unloaded a torrent of semi-relevant facts about inter-sexed individuals, androgenic insensitivity, etc. She believed what she wanted to believe.

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  81. syon
    says:
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    Pincher Martin:”Did you miss the part where I said Ron is a center-right politician who still wants to flatter the sensibilities of conservatives?

    What better way to do this, and still remain politically viable, than by publishing the work of HBDers under the guise of media openness, while still taking issue with most of their controversial ideas.

    You end up with good will on both sides. The HBDers like you because you’re a mainstream person giving them respect and dealing with them on their own terms. (It’s much better than being called a Nazi.) The Hispanics like you because you argue passionately for the position they prefer.”

    PM, Unz has nothing to gain by getting HBDers to like him. We are an impotent, demonized group. If anything, Unz is risking guilt by association just by speaking about us in a civil manner. If this is mere political strategy on Unz’s part, it is lunacy of the highest order.

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  82. Anonymous
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    Magic ingredient? You mean like higher Iq?

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  83. Anonymous is just another Jewish supremacist.

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  84. Harry
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    “Harry keeps his anti-HBD arguments on the down low, but demands that others publish their pro-HBD arguments forthright, even though the only point I wished to make was that Harry was a crotchety fool.”

    Maybe because 1) I wanted to get some personal feedback and correspondence on them from Aaron Gross, because he has a unique perspective and 2) they rely on lots of data and sources which are difficult and cumbersome to post in a comments section format like this.

    But, yeah, way to prove what a worthless nitwit you are.

    “Actually, a good portion of those elite Mexicans are not of “mixed blood.”They are White.”

    Anyone who thinks everyone or even the majority of Mexico’s middle class (as well as a chunk of its upper class) is pure White is a complete fool and not worth taking seriously.

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  85. Harry
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    By the way, people keep claiming that Mexico’s average IQ is 87. Can we at least get the numbers right?

    “Raven’s Standard Progressive Matrices test was administered to a representative sample of 920 white, Mestizo and Native Mexican Indian children aged 7–10 years in Mexico. The mean IQs in relation to a British mean of 100 obtained from the 1979 British standardization sample and adjusted for the estimated subsequent increase were: 98·0 for whites, 94·3 for Mestizos and 83·3 for Native Mexican Indians.”

    Straight from the man himself: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=266611

    Note that the average IQ found for Mexican *Mestizos* is 94.3, not 87. The “87″ number comes from the fact the Lynn misreported his own numbers in his books. The gap between Mestizos and Whites in Mexico is a mere 4 points, which is practically invisible on the day-to-day level.

    And remember what I reiterated above about Mexican immigrants to the U.S. being overwhelmingly drawn from the bottom rungs of Mexico.

    By the way, Jason Malloy is almost as big of an ideologue as Lynn is. And he’s an amateur blogger, to boot. He’s not published in peer-reviewed journals.

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  86. Harry
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    “Really, all the IQ speculation is beside the point…

    Since Mexico is poorer, more violent, and more corrupt than America, why would we want to continue to import Mexico’s poorest and least educated citizens?”

    I completely agree with this. It’s a shame that some losers absolutely must make this issue about IQ scores. Don’t they realize they injure the anti-immigration cause by doing so? Economic and cultural arguments against mass immigration are more than sufficient, and much more palatable to the general public.

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  87. Davidski
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    Anonymous obviously has self-esteem problems, probably because he’ not part of the European and European-derived mainstream, and so he’s overcompensating.

    I’ve seen it many times online. It’s best to ignore such people and hope they find access to a good psychiatrist. In his case it should be a good Jewish psychiatrist.

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  88. Harry
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    As for Ron Unz, I doubt he’ll confirm this one way or the other, but as someone who has followed his articles and comments over the years, I think these are his motives:

    1) He’s had good experiences with Hispanics throughout his life, whereas his experiences with Blacks have been negative. He wants to get out the truth about Blacks — hence his interest in HBD — but wants to spare Hispanics from the fate that awaits Blacks once the public learns about HBD.
    2) At the same time, he realizes that having too many poor and uneducated Hispanics here is a problem. If you’ve read his articles on the minimum wage and the burden placed on the welfare state in CA, you know this. Unz’s minimum wage proposal was designed to encourage the least successful immigrants to go home. Unz has also explicitly argued against open borders.
    3) He wants to make the assimilation process for the remaining Hispanics as smooth as possible, hence his opposition to bilingual education. More importantly, this is why he avoids the nativist race-baiting and obnoxious IQ talk of the HBDers. Deporting each and every Hispanic is simply not practical, and if you antagonize them, ostracize them and/or dehumanize them as a group (by claiming they’re genetically inferior), this is going to do serious damage to the nation by hindering their assimilation.

    Unz’s compromise seems like the best path to take, but it’s a little too subtle for most HBDers (Pincher Martin above is a good example of the dull minds HBD attracts) and he’s coy about his real intentions. It’s obvious to me that the illegal immigrant population needs to be reduced, but there’s no need to punish the entire Hispanic community.

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  89. Harry
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    I think Unz also believes — and I agree with him again — that HBDers are very lazy and sloppy when it comes to Latin America. Lots of the evidence furnished to support the Black-White IQ gap doesn’t apply at all to Hispanics.

    I’ll give you two examples:

    1) Self-esteem. HBDers correctly point out that Blacks have higher self-esteem than Whites, and thus the charge that racism is wounding their self-esteem and causing them to underachieve is dubious. However, for Hispanics that is not true at all:

    “Abstract
    These meta-analyses examine race differences in self-esteem among 712 datapoints. Blacks scored higher than Whites on self-esteem measures (d=0.19), but Whites scored higher than other racial minority groups, including Hispanics (d=-0.09), Asians (d=-0.30), and American Indians (d=-0.21). Most of these differences were smallest in childhood and grew larger with age. Blacks’ self-esteem increased over time relative to Whites’, with the Black advantage not appearing until the 1980s. Black and Hispanic samples scored higher on measures without an academic self-esteem subscale. Relative to Whites, minority males had lower self-esteem than did minority females, and Black and Hispanic self-esteem was higher in groups with high socioeconomic status. The results are most consistent with a cultural interpretation of racial differences in self-esteem. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2012 APA, all rights reserved)”

    http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=2002-02633-001

    I rarely if ever see HBDers mention this difference.

    2) Brain size. HBDers also correctly point out that Blacks have smaller brains than Whites who have smaller brains than East Asians, and that brain size correlates with IQ. What they don’t mention is that the average brain size of Amerindians is about on par with Whites:

    “The definitive study of race differences in brain size was carried out on approximately 20,000 crania by Professor Kenneth Beals and his colleagues at Oregon State University. Their results for endocranial volume, measured in cubic centimeters for the major races were as follows:

    North East Asians (Chinese, Japanese and Koreans): 1,416 cm;
    Europeans: 1,369cm;
    Native American Indians: 1,366cm;
    Southeast Asians: 1,332cm;
    Pacific Islanders: 1,317cm;
    South Asians: 1,293cm;
    Sub-Saharan Africans: 1,282cm
    Bushmen: 1,270cm;
    Australian Aborigines: 1,225cm”

    1369cm vs. 1366cm is insignificant. Again, I rarely see HBDers grapple with this. These are just two among many reasons that I call them lazy and sloppy.

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  90. M_Young
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    “The white people making things happen today are all Jewish.”

    Zuckerberg — yeah, making yet another site (see my_space and friendster) where people can upload stuff is comparable to the moon shot.

    Bezos — not Jewish

    google guys–borrowed heavily from pre-existing search engines

    media, finance, politics. — you are proud of the state of these ‘industries’?

    Now

    Tim Berners-Lee
    Linus Torvalds
    Marc Andreessen
    Gates
    Jobs (RIP too soon)
    Wozniak — surprisingly, not Jewish as far as I can tell
    Jonathan Ive
    Craig Venter

    I suspect a lot of so-called ‘Jewish accomplishment’ is chutzpah.

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  91. Dave Pinsen
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    I follow Wozniak on Twitter. Two things I find humorous about him:

    His favorite restaurant in San Francisco is Ruth’s Chris — a great chain, but still a chain, in a town with a lot of great, unique restaurants.

    He eats lots of chain crap when his Tesla is charging — Chile’s, etc. And Jobs, who was a health nut is no longer with us.

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  92. quercus
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    @Anonymous

    “White accomplishment both cultural and scientific are overwhelmingly Jewish.”

    A few counter examples to enlighten you, fool: Archimedes, Euclid, Heron, Leonardo da Vinci, Gallileo, Isaac Newton, the Bernoulli brothers, Leibniz, Descartes, Pascal, Bach, Beethoven, Tyco Brahe, Copernicus, Heisenberg, Hawking, James Joyce, Henry James, Shakespeare, Goethe, Dante, Dalton, Crick, Darwin………………….. and not a Jew amongst them.

    I suspect you are one of these Jews who believe his/her own propaganda about Jews being smarter or more accomplished than anyone else. I also suspect you are one of these people who not having much accomplishments of your own, likes to bask in the ‘perceived’ accomplishments of those who are part of your ‘group’. It makes you believe that because individuals in your ‘group’ are intelligent or creative, by association with them you must possess those abilities too. Sorry, to burst your bubble, but you are not accomplished just because some people in your group are.

    Jews began to make intellectual accomplishments when they began to break free of their silly religion and their mostly odious rabbis, and if trends continue in Israel, it is the religious who will dominate that society, a group that relies on the largesse of the state to support the far too many children they have. Just watch the collective IQ drop.

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  93. syon
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    Harry:”Note that the average IQ found for Mexican *Mestizos* is 94.3, not 87. The “87″ number comes from the fact the Lynn misreported his own numbers in his books. The gap between Mestizos and Whites in Mexico is a mere 4 points, which is practically invisible on the day-to-day level.”

    Harry, that “four point” gap looms large when it comes time to measure the percentages on the left and the right hand side of the Bell Curve.

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  94. syon
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    “Actually, a good portion of those elite Mexicans are not of “mixed blood.”They are White.”

    Harry:”Anyone who thinks everyone or even the majority of Mexico’s middle class (as well as a chunk of its upper class) is pure White is a complete fool and not worth taking seriously.”

    Does anyone think that a “majority” of Mexico’s middle and upper classes are White? What we do see is that the White ancestry percentage increases with social class. Hence, a room full of Mexican millionaires will be, on average, significantly “Whiter” in ancestry than a room full of stoop laborers.Race is a fact of life in Mexico.

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  95. syon
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    Harry:”By the way, people keep claiming that Mexico’s average IQ is 87. Can we at least get the numbers right?

    “Raven’s Standard Progressive Matrices test was administered to a representative sample of 920 white, Mestizo and Native Mexican Indian children aged 7–10 years in Mexico. The mean IQs in relation to a British mean of 100 obtained from the 1979 British standardization sample and adjusted for the estimated subsequent increase were: 98·0 for whites, 94·3 for Mestizos and 83·3 for Native Mexican Indians.””

    98.0: Mexican Whites
    94.3:Mexican Mestizos
    83.3: Mexican Amerinds

    According to the CIA FACTBOOK, Mexico’s racial breakdown is:mestizo (Amerindian-Spanish) 60%, Amerindian or predominantly Amerindian 30%, white 9%, other 1%

    Frankly, 87 looks like it is in the ballpark for the Mexican mean IQ.Anyone care to do a little statistical analysis and find the Mexican mean for us?

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  96. M_Young
    says:
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    “His favorite restaurant in San Francisco is Ruth’s Chris — a great chain, but still a chain, in a town with a lot of great, unique restaurants.”

    Woz strikes me as a near idiot savant.

    ======
    Some recently departed white inventors, significantly responsible for huge industries

    Hoby Alter — Hobycat, popularized foam/popularized surfing and skateboarding
    Tom Sims — snowboard inventor
    Gary (Christopher) Fisher, Charlie Kelly, Tim Ritchey — credited as inventors of the mountain bike (working in early 1970s Marin, exactly at the same time, and not far in space, from Woz and Jobs and the Homebrew Computer Club).

    Somehow gentile white folks did all this without much Jewish participation, and with even less Jewish participation, at a time when they also had to mow their own lawns and wash their own cars for lack of a huge Latino servile class. In fact, I think it was precisely because kids mowed lawns and washed cars, then worked up to fixing lawn mowers and cars, that this era was so productive.

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  97. M_Young
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    Oops, the bike guys are still with us — Sims and Alter aren’t.

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  98. M_Young
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    with even less Jewish participation –> with even less **Asian** participation (pace Guy Kawasaki)

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  99. Syon,

    By suspicious, I assume that you mean suspecting the other person of bad faith? No, I’m not. I’m an academic, and I encounter true believers every day. Just last week I listened to a highly intelligent woman (she has a PHD in biology) explain to me that “gender” (to use her word) has no biological foundation. In response to my mild objections, she unloaded a torrent of semi-relevant facts about inter-sexed individuals, androgenic insensitivity, etc. She believed what she wanted to believe.

    So this is who you’re comparing Ron to when he talks about IQ and race? An overeducated, addled-brain gender skeptic?

    I give Ron more credit than that. He’s not a true believer. He calculates when making his arguments.

    Unz has nothing to gain by getting HBDers to like him. We are an impotent, demonized group. If anything, Unz is risking guilt by association just by speaking about us in a civil manner. If this is mere political strategy on Unz’s part, it is lunacy of the highest order.

    I agree that HBDers are too marginal to be of political importance. At least in general elections.

    But the logic of primary elections in California still forces moderate Republicans to modulate their rhetoric on immigration, making them more restrictionist than they would like to appear for the general election.

    HBDers are not even close to being synonymous to all immigration restrictionists. The former are but a small part of the latter. But HBDers punch far above their weight in that group in the battle of ideas, much in the same way libertarians do among the much larger group of small government conservatives.

    Ron’s a smart guy and naturally attracted to the battle of ideas. Perhaps he believes he can ease that perennial GOP primary problem by engagement with HBD ideas (while not actually adhering to any) and thereby give either himself or his causes a smoother path through the state’s political process.

    Such an approach might be flawed, but I wouldn’t call it “lunacy.” Besides, the political history of the United States is littered with the failed political strategies of would-be politicians. Ron’s clearly a smart guy, but for that very reason he might be prone to overemphasizing the importance of ideas in the political process and so give HBDers more credit than they deserve.

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  100. Anonymous
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    Harry #84,

    Well, it appears you’re now willing to share your anti-HBD arguments with the great unwashed crowd. No need for secret handshakes and passwords to get the lowdown from Harry on just how wrong are those who believe evolution can be used to explain human differences.

    2) they rely on lots of data and sources which are difficult and cumbersome to post in a comments section format like this.

    Most of the best arguments against HBD can be stated quite economically and then supported with links to scholarship on the web. So why don’t you come up with some other excuse for why you need to use emails to explain the ideas you state so confidently here.

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  101. Harry
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    “What we do see is that the White ancestry percentage increases with social class. Hence, a room full of Mexican millionaires will be, on average, significantly “Whiter” in ancestry than a room full of stoop laborers.”

    And if you knew your shit, you’d know that personal wealth is only weakly correlated with IQ, especially at the highest levels, i.e. the richest people are not necessarily the smartest, though they probably are above average, at least. IQ is the topic of debate here.

    A 4-point gap is relatively insignificant. And that’s assuming it’s impossible to close that gap. If the Black-White gap in America were only 4 points, no one but the most OCD equalitarians would notice it.

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  102. Harry
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    I’ve given a much more plausible explanation for Ron’s positions on Hispanics above. I doubt he still has serious political ambitions. The “Race and Crime in America” article he published last year is enough to kill any chance he has at a major public office. Any opponent of his would easily dig it up and paint him as a virulent racist. Casting Blacks in a negative light is much more fatal for someone’s reputation in America than attacking Hispanics. Not to mention Ron’s connections with people like Sailer, Cochran, Reed, Derbyshire, et al.

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  103. Harry writes in #85,

    By the way, people keep claiming that Mexico’s average IQ is 87. Can we at least get the numbers right?

    Note that the average IQ found for Mexican *Mestizos* is 94.3, not 87. The “87″ number comes from the fact the Lynn misreported his own numbers in his books. The gap between Mestizos and Whites in Mexico is a mere 4 points, which is practically invisible on the day-to-day level.

    I’m pretty sure Harry hasn’t read Lynn, so perhaps he shouldn’t state so confidently what data are in his books.

    Nobody who’s serious is going to use just one source, which uses just one test, to come up with an IQ estimate for a country when they have a multitude of IQ tests they can look at.

    Lynn’s works on global IQ are meta-analyses, which refer to several tests (when they are available) to come up with IQ estimates for the countries. Lynn sometimes makes shit up when no IQ tests are available for a country by using IQ scores from neighboring countries as proxies and then averaging out the scores of its neighboring countries to invent a score for the country in question. But Lynn didn’t need to do that for a country like Mexico. His most recent book uses three tests for Mexico, for example.

    By the way, Jason Malloy is almost as big of an ideologue as Lynn is. And he’s an amateur blogger, to boot. He’s not published in peer-reviewed journals.

    This is a gross and ignorant slander. Jason Malloy is not an ideologue, but one of the most careful and judicious researchers on global IQ studies anywhere. He ought to be a model for how such research is conducted. He’s much better than Lynn, in my opinion. I’m sure, for example, that when Malloy eventually turns to Mexico, he will find many more than just three IQ tests by which to derive that country’s mean IQ.

    Read his recent piece on Puerto Rico for an example of how he conducts himself

    That Malloy’s work is not affiliated with a university is to their shame, not his.

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  104. Harry
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    “No need for secret handshakes and passwords to get the lowdown from Harry on just how wrong are those who believe evolution can be used to explain human differences.”

    If you’ve read my comments above carefully, you’d realize that I didn’t deny that “evolution can be used to explain human differences” or that human differences exist. I said that many HBDers make lazy and sloppy arguments. I didn’t say that all of their claims were completely wrong. There’s a subtle but important difference.

    Likewise, if you’ve read Ron Unz’s other writings, you’d know that he’s not completely anti-HBD, but just skeptical of particular arguments and the way they’re framed. Both Ron and I have dropped hints that genetics may even play a role in certain propensities of the Black race.

    But I’m beginning to conclude that HBDers are simply deficient in reading comprehension and critical thinking skills. Maybe that’s an expression of their own low IQs?

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  105. Harry writes in #86,

    I completely agree with [the notion that "since Mexico is poorer, more violent, and more corrupt than America, why would we want to continue to import Mexico’s poorest and least educated citizens?"]. It’s a shame that some losers absolutely must make this issue about IQ scores. Don’t they realize they injure the anti-immigration cause by doing so?

    But of course if Mexico is “poor, violent and more corrupt” than the U.S. for environmental or institutional reasons, then what harm could come from importing their citizens into a new environment where those factors causing them to be poor, violent and corrupt will no longer exist?

    I don’t think the U.S. public as a whole needs to be sold on the idea that Mexicans are sub-par for biological reasons in order to pass restrictionist immigration legislation, but it’s probably true that the U.S. elite needs to have the piss taken out of its “blank slate” mentality before that legislation will be effective.

    Carl Degler in his book In Search of Human Nature makes reference to a study of letters written by U.S. citizens to the Congress in the early twenties in regards to impending immigration legislation in which nearly all were in favor of such legislation, but not one mentioned IQ as a reason why they were in favor of it.

    Nonetheless, at the elite level, such concerns were considered valid, and it was probably helpful to the passage of the restrictionist legislation that they were.

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  106. Harry in #88 writes,

    Unz’s compromise seems like the best path to take, but it’s a little too subtle for most HBDers (Pincher Martin above is a good example of the dull minds HBD attracts) and he’s coy about his real intentions. It’s obvious to me that the illegal immigrant population needs to be reduced, but there’s no need to punish the entire Hispanic community.

    Who’s talking about punishing the entire Hispanic community? Good God, my man, when you sleep, do you see armies of straw men advancing on you?

    The reason for emphasizing biological differences in discussions among the smart set is to counter the notion that the group inequalities we see today must be the result of simple environmental interventions – which, in turn, provides the foundation by which everything from affirmative action, and policies on income inequality, educational outcomes, law and order issues, etc., are all advanced.

    If the group inequalities are natural, then there will either be less need for a political solution or the political solution will take on a much different form.

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  107. syon
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    Harry:”And if you knew your shit,”

    Why the recourse to vulgarity?

    Harry:” you’d know that personal wealth is only weakly correlated with IQ, especially at the highest levels, i.e. the richest people are not necessarily the smartest, though they probably are above average, at least. ”

    Yes, Harry, no one would ever seriously argue that Cecil Rhodes was smarter than James Clerk Maxwell. On the other hand, as you yourself have noted, social class (of which wealth is a component) does correlate with IQ. Stoop laborers have lower means than business executives, etc. So the fact that the higher strata of Mexican society is Whiter in ancestry than the lower strata is of interest from an HBD standpoint. For one thing, it indicates that White ancestry has a correlation with social class in Mexico…..and social class correlates with IQ.

    Harry:”IQ is the topic of debate here.”

    Yes, Harry, and IQ and social class are related. For example, that’s one of the reasons why Ashkenazi Jews have such a high rate of per capita income.

    Harry:”A 4-point gap is relatively insignificant.”

    The gap between the Mexican Whites (9% of the pop) and Mexican Amerinds (30% of the pop) is greater than 4 points, seeing as how Mexican whites have a mean of 98 while Mexican Amerinds have a mean of 83.3. 30% is a big chunk of the population of Mexico, Harry. And that chunk makes up a significant amount of the Mexicans streaming into the USA…..

    As for a 4 point gap being insignificant, try checking out a Statistics textbook. Small differences at the mean translate into much bigger differences at the left and right hands of the Bell Curve.

    Harry:”And that’s assuming it’s impossible to close that gap.”

    Someone somewhere once said that the goal of proper statesmanship should be to avert preventable evils. Since we don’t know know that we can close the Mestizo gap, why bring in more Mestizos? To say nothing of the 14.7 gap between Mexican Whites and Mexican Amerinds…

    Anonymous:”If the Black-White gap in America were only 4 points, no one but the most OCD equalitarians would notice it.”

    Again, such a slight gap at the mean would translate into a much more noticeable gap at the right hand side of the Bell Curve, so, yes, people would notice. Also, Harry, you keep on avoiding the 14.7 gap between Mexican Amerinds and Mexican Whites. That’s much bigger gap. And 30% of the population of Mexico is a lot of people….

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  108. syon
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    Pincher Martin:”HBDers are not even close to being synonymous to all immigration restrictionists. The former are but a small part of the latter. But HBDers punch far above their weight in that group in the battle of ideas, much in the same way libertarians do among the much larger group of small government conservatives.”

    PM, I wish that HBDers had the level of influence and acceptance that Libertarians have. Libertarians are part of the conversation; they get invited to University symposiums and fancy dinners. People will proudly admit to being Libertarian on TV. No one of any influence wants to be within ten feet of an HBDer. Just look at what happened to Richwine and Derbyshire. We are pariahs.

    For that matter, being a supporter of immigration restriction is much less socially acceptable than being pro-small government. The Liberal elite doesn’t mind small government types; they despise immigration restrictionists.

    Pincher Martin:”So this is who you’re comparing Ron to when he talks about IQ and race? An overeducated, addled-brain gender skeptic?”

    She knows the data, PM. She simply can’t bring herself to believe it.

    PM:”I give Ron more credit than that. He’s not a true believer. He calculates when making his arguments.”

    So did my gender-skeptic interlocutor. She had a wealth of data points at hand to support her position, and she used them in a very cunning fashion, always searching for a weak spot in her opponent’s argument. Being a true believer does not prevent someone from being clever and calculating.

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  109. Harry in #89 continues with his massive disinformation campaign.

    I think Unz also believes — and I agree with him again — that HBDers are very lazy and sloppy when it comes to Latin America. Lots of the evidence furnished to support the Black-White IQ gap doesn’t apply at all to Hispanics.

    I’ve never seen any informed HBDer claim that the Hispanic-White gap in intelligence was equal to the Black-White gap. Usually, Hispanics, both in the U.S. and abroad, are assigned an intermediary position somewhere between blacks and whites.

    What supports this?

    * IQ tests in the United States among Hispanic populations.

    * IQ tests in Latin American countries.

    * Scientific and technical accomplishment among Hispanics in the U.S.

    * Scientific and technical accomplishment in Latin American countries.

    This is not due to small sample sizes. The number of tests given to various Hispanic populations in the New World probably numbers in the hundreds. And there are over two dozen countries in Latin America with Spanish- or Portuguese-speaking majority populations made up of varying Amerind/European admixtures. Not one of them has ever demonstrated it can achieve party with western European countries in education, technology, science, and economic growth – with the possible exception of Argentina at the turn of the twentieth century when its vast agriculturally productive and relatively empty land could provide it mostly European inhabitants with a high income.

    Read this excellent economic presentation for why some national economies might be failing to converge.

    Given this, why should Kenneth Beals’ work on skulls sizes have a major impact on HBDers? It doesn’t contradict anything they claim. It simply doesn’t support the idea that cranial size is an important reason for the difference in intelligence between Amerinds and Europeans.

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  110. Syon,

    PM, I wish that HBDers had the level of influence and acceptance that Libertarians have.

    I never said they did. What I said was that the HBDers’ relationship to restrictionists was similar to the relationship Libertarians had with small government types.

    As you later point out, immigration restrictionists in general are not part of the national conversation, even when they have no association with HBD. Small government conservatives are part of the national conversation, although their ideas are appreciated more in political discussions than in policy, and Libertarians frequently take the lead in these discussions.

    But within Republican primaries, both in California and nationally, immigration restrictionists can still have an impact. I wouldn’t call it a decisive impact by any means. But it’s one which most aspiring politicians feel they must still give a nod of respect to if they are to advance. They can still cause trouble.

    Libertarians are part of the conversation; they get invited to University symposiums and fancy dinners. People will proudly admit to being Libertarian on TV. No one of any influence wants to be within ten feet of an HBDer. Just look at what happened to Richwine and Derbyshire. We are pariahs.

    I don’t disagree. But it’s tangential to what I was writing about. Steve Sailer probably has as large an impact on the public which views immigration restriction as important as does Mark Krikorian, even though Krikorian is the respected policy analyst on immigration restriction and Sailer is a pariah.

    HBDers are political flyweights, but they can still punch above their weight. Sailer refers to this by claiming that some public commentators seem to be having a debate with his views. They never refer to him by name, but they seem to be referring to the arguments he makes.

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  111. Ron Unz
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    With well over a hundred often lengthy comments on this “Mexican Intelligence” thread, I suppose I should provide a few remarks of my own.

    @Pincher Martin

    Your view of American politics is totally delusional and perhaps reflects the bizarre echo-chamber of racialist bloggers and websites.

    Consider that a large fraction of the conservative activist base of the Republican Party is strongly hostile to Darwinian evolution, let alone any horrifying HBD extension, and the notion of advocating sociobiological theories as a route to winning Republican votes is simply nuts. Last year conservative Sen. Marco Rubio stated in a television interview that he wasn’t sure whether or not the world was created in seven days, and everyone agreed that was the sort of thing that prospective Republican presidential candidates needed to say for their primary voters.

    Earlier in this thread, you denounced my 2012 Race/IQ analysis and backed your claims by providing a link to the response by Richard Lynn, one of the world’s foremost IQ experts and the frequently-cited dean of the IQist camp. In reply, I provided a link to my own rejoinder to Lynn, and urged people to read both and decide who made the better case. Subsequently, you abandoned Lynn, criticizing him as sloppy and unreliable, and shifted your support to Jason Malloy, a blogger and amateur IQ expert who (I think) earns his living as a graphic designer. Abandoning a top academic scholar for an amateur blogger perhaps indicates who came out looking better in the 10,000 word 2012 Lynn/Nyborg/Unz exchange on Race/IQ.

    Incidentally, although as far as I know Malloy has no formal psychometric credentials, he is a very devoted researcher on the topic. When my article came out, one of my most telling points was that a huge 3,000+ sample IQ study in Ireland had demonstrated that the Irish IQ was just 87 in 1972, and the much higher figure today tends to demonstrate the malleability of IQ under socio-economic-cultural influences. The validity of that devastating study was ferociously disputed by my critics, who claimed it must have been poorly structured or otherwise invalid, and after four decades it seemed unlikely the details would ever be known. However, the original grad student who organized the study later contacted someone when he heard of the discussion, and Malloy eventually obtained the full report and details, which he carefully reviewed. In his opinion, the study was outstanding in design and structure, perhaps one of the best provided in Lynn’s entire collection and certainly one of the largest. Therefore, it seems undeniable that the testable IQ of the Irish population was just 87 in the early 1970s, and that explosive data-point should be incorporated into everyone’s theoretical framework.

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-revised/

    Given all the endless dispute over why I’ve taken my position on Race/IQ, perhaps the correct explanation is the simplest: that’s where the overwhelming bulk of the evidence points.

    Finally, the central point made by my original Race/IQ article was that the facts are fully consistent with what I termed “the Weak IQ Hypothesis,” namely that a large fraction of tested IQ differences among populations are probably socio-economic in origin but that a residual genetic difference may certainly exist. The notion of a genetic/innate 4 point difference in IQ among the populations under discussion seems perfectly possible to me. But I think there’s just as much evidence and likelihood of similar-sized genetic/innate IQ differences between various white European populations, with various Nord peoples averaging perhaps a bit brighter than various Med peoples or that sort of thing. To argue for one case while totally denying the other is ridiculous. Whether such a hypothetical 4 point IQ difference is large or small depends entirely upon one’s perspective.

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  112. Marco Rubio is a shallow man. He does not know whether the world was created in 7 days. Well, that is a sign of either stupidity or timidity. No Catholic believes the world was created in 7 days, but Rubio was once intrigued with Mormonism, a more anti-rational and anti-Christian religion is hard to find outside of Islam.

    Rubio is also now at least an acolyte of McCain, the craziest man in the Senate. Rubio will never be president, I am sure. His ears are too big and yet he hears nothing but nonsense.

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  113. Ron,

    Your view of American politics is totally delusional and perhaps reflects the bizarre echo-chamber of racialist bloggers and websites.

    I doubt it. I’ve been interested in politics for a long time, but in HBD for only the last few years. I don’t ascribe political importance to restrictionists and certainly not to HBDers.

    But at the margins in some contexts they matter. And since political battles are often won and lost at the margins…

    Consider that a large fraction of the conservative activist base of the Republican Party is strongly hostile to Darwinian evolution, let alone any horrifying HBD extension, and the notion of advocating sociobiological theories as a route to winning Republican votes is simply nuts.

    I agree. But then I never accused you of wanting to advocate sociobiological theories as part of a winning political strategy. That would be insane.

    In fact, to the best of my knowledge, you’ve never advocated any HBD theories that might have some useful application to U.S. politics at all. You’ve written about China’s recent evolutionary development, for example, but that has no obvious application to policymaking.

    So to the degree you’ve written about topics potentially related to HBD and how they might affect U.S. policy, your views are consistently either anti-HBD or safe for a politician to make.

    Hispanics and crime? You argue with Jason Richwine that Hispanics are not disproportionately involved in crime.

    Hispanics and IQ? You argue with Greg Cochran and Richard Lynn that Hispanics are just like the Irish and will soon converge with white IQ. Any day now.

    Asians and college admissions? You argue that Asians are being discriminated against by the elite schools.

    Now maybe this is a coincidence, but I don’t see any view here which is unsafe for a politician to make. Your local city councilman in any California city could announce similar views on any of these three topics – with fewer words, of course – and get a hearty round of applause from the local yahoos.

    So the question is, why do you associate with HBDers? Is it really just because you want to highlight views on both the left and the right which fall out of the mainstream media? Well, if you’re always disagreeing with those views, that makes no sense. Maybe those ideas fall out of the mainstream because they’re no damn good. That certainly seems to be what your research is showing you so far.

    So I think any speculation on this question which leaves out politics for a man who is demonstrably interested in politics is bound to fall short of the mark.

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  114. As to Richard Lynn, I’ve long thought he was a sloppy scholar and very unlike his sometime collaborator Arthur Jensen. If you read Jason Malloy’s country studies, which he has been putting up on his blog for the last eighteen months, he frequently refers to jarring mistakes made by Lynn.

    But Lynn is still an important pioneer, and I’m certainly not abandoning him. Without Lynn, there’s likely no Malloy. Lynn made many, many errors, but his larger point is still valid – the world is filled with people who have different group IQs, those differences in IQ are durable, and this has consequences for economic growth.

    You, in typical fashion, have burrowed in on Lynn’s errors. You see the rot in a few trees and consider the entire forest unhealthy.

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  115. Let me just reiterate a few things others have said upthread:

    1) The USA doesn’t need anymore low IQ (less than 100) people. We have enough of them already here, and there aren’t enough manual/low-brain power jobs for them as it is. We’re getting the low IQ ones.

    2) The Smart Mexicans – who would be an asset to any country – aren’t coming to the USA in significant numbers. Why should they? Their life is pretty good in Mexico.

    3) With 300 million people, the USA doesn’t need anymore people. I don’t care where they’re from. Do you want to live in country with 600 million people? I don’t.

    4) Culture is often more important than IQ. A 120 IQ communist is bigger burden than a 100 IQ patriotic American. Which leads to the fact that Mexicans as a rule, are to the LEFT on almost political position than most Americans. Which is why the Left supports open borders with Mexico.

    5) Mexicans – like most immigrants to the USA in the 21st Century – are 50% Americans. Their primary loyalty is not the USA. Most of them have no desire to assimilate. They are here for the money. When these people start voting it, there votes wont be based on what’s good for the USA or old-timey Jeffersonian views but what’s good for Mexican-Americans.

    6) I love Mexico and Mexicans – in Mexico. I don’t want Mexico to be the 51st state, and I don’t want California to be Mexico Norte.

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  116. Ron Unz
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    @Pincher Martin

    “If you read Jason Malloy’s country studies, which he has been putting up on his blog for the last eighteen months, he frequently refers to jarring mistakes made by Lynn.”

    Hmmm… Eighteen months. Then his listing of Lynn’s mistakes began very shortly after I published my major article and columns pointing them out. For the previous twenty years, racialists had been endlessly quoting and citing Lynn as their definitive scholarly source, almost never suggesting any errors in his data or analysis, apparently never having noticed them.

    You suggest that Arthur Jensen was a far more reliable scholar on IQ issues, and I don’t necessarily disagree with you. Indeed, Jensen and his contemporary Hans Eysenck were probably two of the world’s most towering psychometricians during the second half of the twentieth century. Lynn would probably agree with that.

    Interestingly enough, decades ago Jensen and Eysenck both reviewed the evidence on the IQ gap between Mexican-Americans and American whites and concluded that the IQ difference was overwhelmingly due to socio-economic rather than innate/genetic factors. Indeed, I pointed this out in a column of mine in the Race/IQ series:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/raceiq-a-coda-on-mexican-american-iq/

    So perhaps you’ll now need to throw Jensen and Eysenck overboard and declare them “unreliable,” joining Lynn in the trash-heap.

    It’s obvious that you haven’t bothered reading any of my articles on Race/IQ, even though I helpfully provided their links up-thread. If you have a burning interest in Race/IQ issues but are just too lazy to read any of my published pieces on the subject, I’m not sure why I should bother providing any further responses to your ignorant comments.

    “I’ve been interested in politics for a long time, but in HBD for only the last few years.”

    I can easily believe that. It’s hardly surprising that someone whose interest in HBD is so recent and shallow doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about, and probably picked up all his silly beliefs by spending a couple of years reading racialist websites and anonymous bloggers.

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  117. syon
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    In defense of his Mexican-White environmentalism, Ron now cites early research by Arthur Jensen:

    Worse still for my critics, Eysenck’s discussion had been drawn directly from the work of Arthur Jensen, who had conducted detailed research studies on the question of Mexican-American intelligence and had similarly concluded that the IQ gap with whites was overwhelmingly “environmental” in origin. Now I claim no great expertise in IQ matters, but those who do seem to regard Jensen as one of the most towering figures in the history of their academic discipline.

    Presumably, this might place my numerous and noisy IQ-activist critics in a bit of a quandary

    Ron is referring to a study done by Jensen which was discussed in “Educability and Sub population Differences” (p.g. 305-312). To summarize, Jensen compared White, Mexican, and Black performance on PPVT and Raven’s matrices. He reasoned that since PPVT was more culturally loaded it should be less heritable than Raven’s matrices. Therefore, one could regress the more heritable Raven’s differences on the more environmental PPVT differences and see which were large for which group. Larger differences on more heritable tests would be more consistent with a genetic hypothesis while larger differences on less heritable tests would more consistent with an environment. Those familiar with the subject will realize that this was Jensen’s early investigation of the Jensen Effect (the positive association between a mean difference and heritability coefficients – discussed in section G, here).

    Jensen (2012) recently summarized the logic of this analysis:

    “I had demonstrated in my research of the 1970s that mean Black–White differences in IQ were more pronounced on the more heritable, less cultural subtests. For example, Jensen (1973) cited a study by Nichols (1972) which found a correlation of r = .67 (p < .05) between the heritabilities of 13 tests estimated from twins and the magnitude of the Black–White differences on the same tests. I further demonstrated an inverse relation of r = .70 (p < .01) between the environmentality (the converse of heritability, that is, the percentage of variance that can be attributed to nongenetic factors) for 16 tests estimated from differences between siblings and the mean White–Black differences (Jensen, 1973)…
    [...]Strong inference is possible: (1) genetic theory predicts a positive association between heritability and group differences; (2) culture theory predicts a positive association between environmentality and group differences; (3) nature + nurture models predict both genetic and environmental contributions to group differences; while (4) culture-only theories predict a zero relationship between heritability and group differences. These results provide strong and reliable corroboration of the hypothesis that the cause of group differences is the same as the cause of individual differences, that is, about 50% genetic and 50% environmental (Rushton & Jensen, 2005, 2010) (Jensen, 2012.
    Rushton’s contributions to the study of mental ability).

    Those familiar with also recognize that this was a primitive forerunner to the structural equation modeling (SEM) studies using biometric decomposition (discussed in section H here). Unfortunately, these latter studies have not been conducted on Hispanics, as such there is only strong SEM evidence for a Black-White genetic hypothesis. (Which Ron curiously omits discussion of.) However, it so happens that heritable differences go hand in hand with g-loaded differences (Spearman’s effects). And Spearman’s hypothesis has been found to hold for 3.5 out of 4 studies involving Hispanics and Whites. (As an example of this Spearman’s effect refer back to the discussion above concerning the NLSY 97 AFQT and PIAT scores.) We can therefore infer that the White-Hispanic difference also positively correlates with heritability. If not, this would imply that Jensen and Spearman effects need not coincide, which, if so, would figure badly for environmental explanations for the B/W gap. (The g-heritability correlation is how environmentalists account for the B/W Jensen effect; it’s argued that the Jensen effect is collinear with Spearman’s effect, or a g-loaded difference, and that a g-loaded difference can readily be environmentally induced, and therefore that a correlation between a group difference and heritability can also readily be environmentally induced.)

    This whole issue has been somewhat complicated of late by Dutch psychologist Kees-Jan Kan who has found, queerly, a strong correlation between cultural loadedness, g-loadedness and, presumably, test heritabilities. You can refer to his discussion of this in the comment section of my “Nothing is irrelevant” post. This finding seemingly undermines Jensen’s initial presumption that the cultural loadednesss of a test is inversely proportionate to its heritability.

    In sum, Jensen’s early research project – and, in fact, his late research project – was and still is inconclusive. Where it otherwise, the contentious debate concerning the origin of the Black-White gap would have been resolved.

    (http://occidentalascent.wordpress.com/2012/08/29/redebunking-ron/)

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  118. Ron,

    Hmmm… Eighteen months. Then his listing of Lynn’s mistakes began very shortly after I published my major article and columns pointing them out.

    Perhaps you had an influence on Malloy. Or perhaps it’s just a coincidence. I strongly suspect the latter.

    Malloy wrote this in 2006 when reviewing one of Lynn’s book: “I don’t expect any of this to go uncontested, and Lynn’s accuracy and care with the data is a fitful concern.” [first sentence of the final paragraph of chapter three.] So it doesn’t appear he needed your guidance to make note of Lynn’s mistakes.

    In any case, you were originally talking about my motivations here, not Malloy’s when he began blogging eighteen months ago. As I’ve shown, you were not the first to bring up Lynn’s sloppy scholarship, and as crucial as you might view your own importance to this debate about Lynn’s mistakes, it appears neither Malloy nor I needed your help to see the errors involved in Lynn’s work.

    So perhaps you’ll now need to throw Jensen and Eysenck overboard and declare them “unreliable,” joining Lynn in the trash-heap.

    I don’t know why anyone would need to do any such thing.

    Jensen changed his mind about a lot of things over the years. He was a careful scholar who changed his position when the evidence demanded it. He did not, as you claim of others here (and really should be saying about yourself), hold to a view just because it was his view. He wrote numerous times in his 1998 book The g Factor that he has changed his mind about some point in question.

    Such an approach is healthy for a scholar working in the human sciences, and it shouldn’t be a considered a detraction from the quality of his scholarly work.

    Neither Jensen nor Lynn deserve condemnation, but Jensen was far more careful than Lynn about the details of his work.

    It’s obvious that you haven’t bothered reading any of my articles on Race/IQ, even though I helpfully provided their links up-thread. If you have a burning interest in Race/IQ issues but are just too lazy to read any of my published pieces on the subject, I’m not sure why I should bother providing any further responses to your ignorant comments.

    I did read them, Ron. But I have to tell you the truth. They’re very, very long and it’s difficult to keep one’s concentration when you’re following someone down what you know is the wrong path. You get caught up in unimportant details and then go on and on about them.

    Nevertheless, I did my due diligence. But please don’t ask me to do it again.

    I can easily believe that [you only became interested in HBDS a few years ago]. It’s hardly surprising that someone whose interest in HBD is so recent and shallow doesn’t have a clue what he’s talking about, and probably picked up all his silly beliefs by spending a couple of years reading racialist websites and anonymous bloggers.

    Several of which can now be found on Unz.com !

    Believe what you like about me, Ron, but this was originally about you – and you’ve studiously avoided commenting on your own motivations here, which are puzzling without some political motive ascribed to them.

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  119. dcite
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    Accomplishment overwhelmingly Jewish? What an astoundingly stupid thing to say. Jews didn’t even participate much in invention or achievement (except mercantile) until the 19th c. In the meantime, navigational instruments were invented (fascinating); cathedrals were raised; automatons were inventend in the 1500s for amusement; the groundwork for physics, botany, etymology, all the sciences, was laid down; the industrial revolution commenced; trains were invented; a thousand ingenious contrivances (Yanhee ingenuity–this ridiculous commenter only needs to watch a few episodes of Antiques Roadshow to see that); incredible feats of furniture making.
    The greatest genius so far–probably Nicola Tesla. Serbian gentile who called Einstein a fraud, but that’s another story.
    In any case, societies are not “invented” by a few elite. All innovators stand on the shoulders of others; people of high, but not genius level, maintain, and improve what others have invented. White societies, Asian, seem to be able to do that. Black ones cannot maintain even what is invented by whites and handed to them (South Africa would collapse if the whites left.)
    To say that white accmoplishment is “Jewish” is so hilarious, that my first thought was, it’s a troll. But even trolls deserve an answer. btw, the white IQ, regardless of national origin, is 100. Progression and regression are to the the mean. That is what is meant by statistics and a mean IQ of about 100 seems to be necessary for a modern society, because that is the mean IQ of the people who invented it. oh, and btw, it was German gentile scientist whom the Russians and Americans grabbed after WWII.

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  120. elise
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    I know the particulars peoples being discussed here are “Amerinds” and “EuroAmers” (my term), but when somebody mentioned the Irish as being low-iq, I was baffled. Irish in this country do not test any lower to my knowledge. I’m still smarting that they turned one of the inventors of the prosthetic dolphin tail into a black man in the movie about it. In fact, the inventors were two white men, one of them Irish.

    New things are invented everyday. The individual on this thread claiming that Jews invented everything, seems to think the world started in 1900, and seems to be informed mainly by Spielberg and pop culture. Jews are well represented among achievers, and I personally have enjoyed their minds, but European were doing plenty without their help. We really don’t need blacks or browns either, but they seem to think they need us, or they’d stay in their own countries. The descendants of the black slaves do at least have some preogratives (though I think the time has long expired), but why are we supposed to kiss every other colored derriere that bulges into our already strained economy?

    He (or she) trolling about “whites not accomplishing more than .. whoever” has the education the “powers that be” decided to enact about 30 yrs ago when it was realized (tacitly) that blacks and whites would be academically equal. They determined that all standards should be lowered. Since some could not rise, some must be dragged down. Around the same time (c. 1980) they also eliminated testing for government jobs because the races were not able to perform equally (on the average.) And never would, apparently.
    If you want any proof of disparity between races as far as ability, the stats that whites whose families made less that 20,000 did better in SATS than blacks whose families were in the 70,000 plus bracket, should be one. I’ve lived and been around in enough government jobs to see the obviousness of it all. Also, even in my old working class neighborhood, public buildings and places were respected, never destroyed. Nowadays, even the cemetery (whose gorgeous iron bars have been bent so thugs could get in) is getting wrecked, and finally had to be locked. It never had been. “Oridnary” white working people had fine neighborhoods, relatively crime free, close. Now….
    The one word that strikes me over and over again in considering the desires of certain deluded whites to have themselves made a minority …. goofy.

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  121. redux
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    What is Reed trying to prove? That his obviously European step-daughter likes literature? That’s supposed to prove something? I know there are cultured Latin Americans. Everyone knows that.
    I’d be more impressed if he used a large classroom of Indians as his examples, of something or other, because that’s what the “Latins” we’re getting are for the most part.

    While I like many of them, seeing what masses of them are doing to the D.C. area it is mind-boggling to think someone should want more of them. I’ve noticed the D.C. metro is becoming dirtier every years. People in DC, black & white, rode it through the 80s and 90s and it stayed fairly clean, little eating. Not now.

    As far as inventions…to whom do we owe those flush toilets that flush away all our debris, saving us from disease and early death? Answer: I don’t think the inventor was Jewish. Though maybe he was a clandestine one. Thomas Crapper was his a name, though Europe produced quite a few inventors of various kinds of toilets, as it produced an awesome array of inventors of just about everything.

    Asking what white people have done for the United States compared to … Mexicans? — is a bit like asking what flush toilets have done for the bathroom industry. Or what ships did for navigation.

    The only reason they are coming here is because of what whites have done, not anyone else. And what we still do. It is why they want to move into our neighborhoods, our schools, our stores, our government, our institutions–and then pretend they “invented” them just as much as anyone else, because the truth is just too, perhaps, humiliating.

    That is why such a ridiculous comment is made at all. The truth that white Europeans invented just about everything (take away what they did and you have primitive villages for the most part; a few glimmers in medieval Persia and China; ancient Vedic texts; that’s it) and it’s humiliating for a lot of people.

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  122. Dave Pinsen
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    Not at all. It has to do with measuring the size of the frog according to the dimensions of the pond. Spain’s Golden Age is golden only according to Spain’s low standards.

    Their pond was the entire world, much of which Spanish and Portuguese explorers were the first Europeans to discover, and which they were the first to circumnavigate. Their voyages were the equivalent in their day of moon shots.

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  123. josh
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    @redux

    Thomas Crapper didn’t invent the flush toilet. That’s a myth that gets bandied about because his last name is crapper. Interestingly, he did innovate a device called a “ballcock” (what’s with these names?), which was invented by a MEXICAN scientists (who looks white).
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Antonio_de_Alzate_y_Ram%C3%ADrez

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  124. Anonymous
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    Too many people here say they don’t want Mexicans here, because look at Mexico. It is nothing but barrios filled with dirty illiterate Mexicans.

    No doubt there is a lot to Mexico that is distasteful. But then again that’s true of Europe too. When people look at Mexico, they will see what they want to see. I think that was Fred’s point. Go to Europe and enjoy the food and architecture of a once grand civilization. But let’s not romanticize what Europe is now, which is basically entire countries on welfare.

    I don’t want floods of immigrants from any country coming here. But I also think people are exaggerating Mexican problems because it fits their narrative. White people haven’t owned up to the fact that white people have been in decline for some time now.

    Adding a bunch of Mexicans won’t fix it, but it won’t fundamentally change anything either.

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  125. syon
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    Dave Pinsen:”Their pond was the entire world,”

    Dave, Try reading Murray’s HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT; Spain’s artistic and scientific ponds are markedly smaller than those of England, France, Italy, and Germany.

    Dave Pinsen:” much of which Spanish and Portuguese explorers were the first Europeans to discover, and which they were the first to circumnavigate. Their voyages were the equivalent in their day of moon shots.”

    And do those exploratory ventures completely compensate for the Iberian peninsula’s lackluster performance in every other area of human accomplishment? I tend to think not, especially when you bear in mind the fact that the English (Drake, Cook, Dampier, Hudsun, etc) Dutch (Abel Tasman, Willem Barentsz, Adriaen (Aerjan) Block, Frederick de Houtman, etc), and French (Bougainville, Antoine Laumet de La Mothe, René-Robert Cavelier, etc) all did a considerable amount of exploring as well.

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  126. redux
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    “Thomas Crapper didn’t invent the flush toilet. That’s a myth that gets bandied about because his last name is crapper”

    I’d heard that, but was under the impression Crapper was one of the inventors. Most things have had more than one inventor.
    Things are being invented, improved, changed, maintained, constantly, including, now, today, in America. It takes some intelligence just to realize what it is you don’t know. Anyone who claims whites are “inventing” no more than the third worlders invading our country (why are they coming here for our welfare and our society, if they are so capable on their own?) is just not very smart, or perhaps is 12 yrs old. Or, since they think Jewish geniuses are doing everything, is just deluded or perhaps Jewish. And while I’m surprised a main inventor of the flush toilet was Mexican, I’m not surprised he was white (looking. Pretty good indication of ancestry) There have been any number such inventions using pumps, earth, water, or lime, over the centuries. But the 3rd world invasion is not responsible for them. They are benefitting by us making sure they all have them and on our dime.

    btw, Europe on welfare or off, still has, along w/North America and Japan, the highest standard of living in history, with certain European countries repeatedly on the “Best Place to Live List” as are the certain cities of America, with a certain demographic (guess what it is?) Again, “intelligence” does affect society only by the occassional genius. It is the contstant pressure of mentalities capable of an urge to order, improve, imagine, analyze, and (gasp) control, their environment. Also to destroy. Those who have great abilities have it in a bad way too.
    I’m still waiting (since the 70s when they first advised us of it) for the amazing supernova of creativity that supposedly emanates from all the “Latin” mestizos. I think they should admit that expecting greater “creativity” from a whole people because they are brown (or any other color) is — gasp — racist. The proof is in the pudding. It’s what you do, not what you say you do.

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  127. Anonymous
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    Trying to lump together all of the accomplishments of “white people” together is misleading since there is a wide range of Iq and accomplishments amongst white people.

    It’s like saying look at everything brown people have accomplished. You could then use Indian scientists and Mexican soccer players as the same people which we know are quite different.

    So yeah, let’s say Mexicans have not set the world on fire. Have the Irish in America? Have the Poles set the world on fire with their inventions?

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  128. Fred’s position is eminently logical and reasonable.
    The woman he lives with is Mexican. What would you
    expect him to say? He likes sleeping in a bed instead of
    on a couch, likes home-cooked meals instead of fast food,
    takeout and frozen pizza. He likes a clean house, regular
    sex and his laundry done. He likes emotional companionship.
    Do you really think he’s going to screw all that up for your
    intellectual gratification? Now who’s flunking an IQ test?

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  129. quercus
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    @Anonymous

    “Trying to lump together all of the accomplishments of “white people” together is misleading since there is a wide range of Iq and accomplishments amongst white people.”

    Many of us are not trying to lump together the accomplishments of white people, rather I think we are lumping together the accomplishments of gentiles, regardless of a nation- state affiliation, and those accomplishments have indeed been great and ‘set the world on fire’. Not bad, for a group ‘unchosen’, eh?

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  130. syon
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    Charlesz Martel:”Fred’s position is eminently logical and reasonable.
    The woman he lives with is Mexican. What would you
    expect him to say? He likes sleeping in a bed instead of
    on a couch, likes home-cooked meals instead of fast food,
    takeout and frozen pizza. He likes a clean house, regular
    sex and his laundry done. He likes emotional companionship.
    Do you really think he’s going to screw all that up for your
    intellectual gratification? Now who’s flunking an IQ test?”

    Allan Wall over at VDARE is also married to a Mexican woman, and he does not write Reed’s brand of absurd tripe.

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  131. syon
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    Anonymous:”Trying to lump together all of the accomplishments of “white people” together is misleading since there is a wide range of Iq and accomplishments amongst white people.”

    Sure. The Spanish and the Portuguese, for example, have very low rates of accomplishment.

    Anonymous:”It’s like saying look at everything brown people have accomplished. You could then use Indian scientists and Mexican soccer players as the same people which we know are quite different.”

    Except for the fact that South Asians and Mexicans have nothing in common; they represent different races and civilizations. The French and the English, in contrast, are both members of Western Civilization and are both racially European.

    Anonymous:”So yeah, let’s say Mexicans have not set the world on fire. Have the Irish in America? Have the Poles set the world on fire with their inventions?”

    Then why do we need Mexicans when we already have a surfeit of mediocrities?

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  132. Anonymous
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    That lumped together group of Gentiles you reference has a lot of dead guys who accomplished a lot in some other lifetime.

    Even Arabs can harken back to the good ol days when their civilization accomplished a lot. But what have ya got for me today? From what I see, a lot of decline that probably is irreversible.

    An entire generation of Gentile women is repulsed by the likes of a Bill Gates and instead have chosen amongst the likes of KFed. What are the implications long term?

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  133. syon
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    Anonymous:”That lumped together group of Gentiles you reference has a lot of dead guys who accomplished a lot in some other lifetime.”

    Practical necessity; it’s easier to judge the greatness of the dearly departed. On the other hand, a lot of living White Gentiles were also named:Bill Gates, Cormac McCarthy, Don DeLillo, Thomas Pynchon, Warren Buffet, Jonathan Franzen, Martin Scorsese, Terrence Malick, Peter Higgs (Nobel in physics), Alice Munro (Nobel in Lit), George Smith (Nobel in physics), Jack Kilby (Nobel in physics), Wozniak, etc, etc. If you want more, just scan through the Living Nobel winners. You’ll find lots of White Gentiles.

    Anonymous:”Even Arabs can harken back to the good ol days when their civilization accomplished a lot.”

    Interestingly, a lot of the top “Arabs” in the Middle Ages were Persian…..

    Anonymous:But what have ya got for me today?”

    Let’s see. Cut.Paste:Bill Gates, Cormac McCarthy, Don DeLillo, Thomas Pynchon, Warren Buffet, Jonathan Franzen, Martin Scorsese, Terrence Malick, Peter Higgs (Nobel in physics), Alice Munro (Nobel in Lit), George Smith (Nobel in physics), Jack Kilby (Nobel in physics), Wozniak, etc, etc.

    Anonymous:” From what I see, a lot of decline that probably is irreversible.”

    Perhaps. On the other hand, importing vast numbers of Mestizos and Amerinds isn’t exactly helping matters….

    Anonymous:”An entire generation of Gentile women is repulsed by the likes of a Bill Gates and instead have chosen amongst the likes of KFed.”

    And in the ’30s they had hot pants for Clark Gable. More things change, etc.

    Anonymous:”What are the implications long term?”

    Who knows? The future is always uncertain. The least we can do is try to avert preventable evils. Hence, the importance of stopping the flow of Amerinds and Mestizos into the USA . We know that Amerinds and Mestizos are a threat, both now and in the future.

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  134. Chuck
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    Dear Ron and Reed,

    How do you account for the intellectual inferiority of Mexican Americans? Recall, that:

    (a) By the 2nd generation, the differences can not generally be accounted for by psychometric bias; we are dealing with true latent ability differences
    (b) The difference is at least 0.5 SD going into the fourth generation
    (c) The difference is larger when excluding mixed ethnic “Hispanics” (e.g., one Mexican and one non-Hispanic White parent)
    (d) Mexican immigrants are not dysselected in terms of Human capital relative to the average of the Mexican in Mexico

    Given the Mexican American lower psychometric intelligence and given that Mexican Mexicans score lower than White Americans on similar ability tests, it’s reasonable to infer that Mexican Mexicans also have lower psychometric intelligence, no? By Reed’s silly model — Ron’s is more sensible — the well established score differences between Mexicans in Mexico and Whites in the U.S. don’t index latent ability differences. This difference is merely due to psychometric bias. But then when Mexicans move to the U.S. they magically become less intelligent. OK…Here is a simple alternative that is more in line with Lynn’s “strong model”. Mexican in Mexico as with 2nd, 3rd, and 4th+ generation Mexicans in the U.S. are less intelligent that Whites in the U.S. The difference is about 0.5 SD as one would expect given the percent of African and Amerindian genetic admixture and given plausible estimates of genetic intellectual races differences. This is the true latent difference. This then amplifies on the population level resulting in larger National IQ differences — which have been generally found to be psychometrically biased in the technical sense. Given a Gaussian distribution, the difference between random individual is 1.17 SD — so the Mexican-White latent ability difference would be half of that, thus not very perceptible, especially when you don’t want to see it.

    Now, this common sense model has obvious policy implications. Since there are population level effects, having a bunch of Mexicans in the U.S. that interact as a culture/population is not ideal. We end up getting a transplanted Mexico. This results from modest individual level effects amplifying. To avert this fate, we have to slow down Mexican immigration — to allow time for “assimilation”.

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  135. Bruce
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    I read several of Mr. Unz’s articles and the replies at VDARE. What I don’t remember is if Mr. Unz discussed the Polish data. As I recall, the Polish data pointed in the exact opposite direction of his hypothesis (i.e. increasing wealth decreases general intelligence – which is of course ridiculous.). Can one conclude that there’s a fair amount of noise in the Lynn data?

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  136. Phil
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    http://touch.dailymotion.com/video/xz3vrw_through-the-wormhole-s03e02-is-there-a-superior-race_news I’m whote, but could live with Asians, in general, being smarter. I don’t think it’s true, in nature, but in these lax times for the descendants of the spreaders of Judeo-Christian civilization (of which Jews and Christians contributed equally, but in different ways) they have been the most studious. We’re probably even. I think how fast a people, as a race collective, can rebuild after a disaster or after domination by another people (and Europe, East Asia and Israel had plenty of that and hace rebuilt bicely, before we got lulled to sleep by our consumerist lifestyles and enteratainment addictions) is telling. It would be of note the state of things, in general, in Latin American nations, African countries, Middle-Eastern nations and SE Asian countries without a Judeo-Christian education. Christianity was the faith of groundbreaking science throughout the centuries. Those who went Atheist have, in general, brought us mad quack science of a “1984″ nature that is not far off from what was done to psychologically-disturbed people to get the demons out. Sorry for the digression, but one person was attackibg Rubio for his faith, despite the unscientific crap, like embryonic stem cell “therapies” the President still champions, despite actual cures from the other ways of getting stem cells) that has come from the scifientific community, despite the scientific method and peer
    review.
    Back to the topic: It could be that people in countries further from the Equator must be more inventive to adapt to all the changing seasons, I don’t know, but if different dogs cpuld be smarter than others, maybe some people are, too–at least as a race collective. Individually, you get people like Dr. Ben Carson. Of course, except for the grace of God go we and stripped of it, will we go. Even third world people have had an impressive time in some part of it’s hustory, somewhere, but are now, warzones. We don’t need a lightningbolt from God to become a third world nation; we are becoming more and more like Mike Judge’s future of the world in that movue called something like ” Idiotopia.” Maybe these backward people were not backward, once, but brought curses upon themselves, spiritually or culturally, and never cane out of the funk.

    Please excuse any grammar mistakes, as my smartphone isn’t page-fitting this and I have to pan and scan.

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  137. Are you serious? Jasmin looks at least 40% Indian to me. Natalia 100% Indian. Tona 90% Indian. Violeta 25% Indian. Obviously intelligent Mestizos and Indians do exist, but they are a smaller percentage compared to European populations. These cases are anecdotal and prove nothing, just as Fred Reed himself says.

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  138. syon
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    Franklin Ryckaert:”Are you serious? Jasmin looks at least 40% Indian to me.”

    Which means what? That she has dark hair, brown eyes, and an olive complexion? To my eyes, she looks like a typical Mediterranean White person. Have her walk the streets of Sicily or Sardinia. No one would give her a second glance.

    FR:”Natalia 100% Indian.”

    You need to meet more Mexican and Central American Amerinds. She might have some Amerind ancestry, but it is fair below 100%.

    FR:”Tona 90% Indian.”

    Frankly, I’m not quite sure how one would go about distinguishing someone with 90% Amerind ancestry from someone who is 100% based on looks alone. Yes, as I indicated in my previous post, Tona does look as though he has a fair amount of Amerind ancestry.

    FR:” Violeta 25% Indian. ”

    Again, no. There is nothing non-White about her appearance. As with Jasmin, plunk her down in Sicily or Sardinia or Crete or Southern Italy. She simply looks like a typical Southern European woman.

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  139. Freedom Hayak
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    Are any of the examples Fred provides trying to cross the border to America to find low paid work and welfare benefits, in-state tuition, food stamps, and membership in a local La Raza group? I didn’t think so.

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  140. Aquila
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    We must remember that intellectual and economic growth is exponential not linear. Thus even though Spain and Portugal did not achieve as much as France and England, they had different societies, with freedom of speech much more open in France and England. This allowed more intellectual growth in the Fr, and Eng, and growth leads to more growth. Hence, the gap of achievement between Fr, and Eng, and Spain and Portugal isn’t as big as it seems. Furthermore, judging a societies achievements solely on their finest specimens, is inferior to judging them by their finest citizens, and the achievements that society did as a whole. Spain and Portugal made great advances in sailing, logistics, and had an enormous impact on the European economy. Unfortunately, they were stricken by the “resource curse”. Additionally, by the time Eng, and Fr, began their intellectual growth, Spain and Portugal had already been in decline for a long time, and were still much more under the control of the Catholic Church than France or England. As such, we must disentangle what achievements were due to genetics/g/iq and which were due to socioeconomic conditions. I must admit however, than England and France clearly did and have more intellectual achievements than Spain or Portugal. I just find it ridiculous when someone says Spain and Portugal contributed nothing/little or have no potential. They might as well call themselves Meletus.

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  141. Aquila
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    Lol, don’t compare the explorations of the English and Dutch, to those of the Spanish or Portuguese in the years 1500 to 1600. The Spanish and Portuguese clearly win here. It seems you have an extremely strong bias against the Spanish and Portuguese. You make the assumption that the Iberian Peninsula is inferior due to genetics (or at least make sound so). Let’s get things straight. If you read Murray’s HUMAN ACCOMPLISHMENT, you’d realize that he did mention that civil liberties were extremely important in intellectual growth. France and England had most of their figures appear at a time when a) they were rising in power b) freedom of speech and liberty were growing. At this same time Spain and Portugal were in decline, and more heavily under the control of the Catholic Church. This explains why France and England had a lot more significant figures. Not only that, but keep in mind that growth is exponential, not linear. This too being mentioned by Murray.

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