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Conspiracy theories hold charm for such as I, who regard them as we might a species of rare insectivorous marsupials who glow in the dark, and for the conspiracy theorists themselves, who seem to derive from their conditions a satisfying sense of esoteric penetration. Yet they become wearisome by constant repetition. Some have. In particular, Nine/Eleven. In the following we will ignore the more abundantly silly theories, such as that there were no Jews in the Towers on the day of the attacks. Some thoughts::

The Pentagon

At the time of Nine/Eleven, I was living in Colonial Village in Virginia, a few hundred yards from the Virginia terminus of Key Bridge. The bike path ran from there parallel to the Potomac past the Pentagon and National Airport to the Washington Sailing Marina. On the wooden deck overlooking the water a concession sold snacks and Budweiser. A mixed group of oddballs foregathered daily to socialize.

One was Dave Winslow, whom we called Broadcast Dave to distinguish him from a couple of other Daves, Winslow having been involved in radio broadcasting in an earlier life. We often swapped journalism stories. His apartment was nearby. The day after the Pentagon blew up, he recounted being at home, hearing a plane coming in unusually low, looking out the window, and seeing the tail flash by, boom.

So much for conspiracy theories about the Air Force attacking the Pentagon with a missile.

But Fred, this guy was part of the conspiracy. Don’t you see?… Or oh my God, I see it now. Fred, YOU are part….

Dave Winslow, actually a robot sent by the Trilateral Commission, and planted at the Washington Sailing Marina years earlier to deceive me about seeing the airplane. It was really a missile. My photo.

Dave Winslow, actually a robot sent by the Trilateral Commission, and planted at the Washington Sailing Marina years earlier to deceive me about seeing the airplane. It was really a missile. My photo.

Here missiles are tricky to discuss because of the lack of specificity. What missile, fired from what? Most of the theorists couldn’t tell a TLAM from a back hoe. Reflect that firing an air-to-ground missile, probably a Hellfire and launched perhaps from an F16, would involve a lot of people: pilot, ground crew, weapons-storage bureaucracy, base commander, and so on. Those in on it would talk to others, even if ordered not to. A loadout of live munitions inside the US is very odd except for carefully scripted training missions. Those involved would talk to others. They might think, “Hmmm, F16 take off with Hellfire, come back no Hellfire. Where go Hellfire? Pentagon blow up. Heap strange.”

But Fred, it was a super-secret outfit especially trained to attack the United States. Nobody has ever heard of them which proves they are supersecret….

If the missile was a Tomahawk launched from a ship the whole crew would know of the launch. Many mouths, much talk. It would take a very odd captain to fire a cruise missile at the Pentagon.

But Fred, the crew and the officers and men are in on the conspiracy.

A Tomahawk Land-Attack Missile, presumably what the  conspiracy people mean, if they have any idea what they mean, when they say “cruise missile.”

A Tomahawk Land-Attack Missile, presumably what the conspiracy people mean, if they have any idea what they mean, when they say “cruise missile.”

Now, Flight AA77, which didn’t fly into the Pentagon. There are three possibilities:

First, the flight never existed. The entire travel industry would know this, along with everyone else having access to Sabre, the ticketing system. American Airlines would scream like a scalded dog at this total fabrication, There would be no insurance claim on record for loss of the plane, and so on.

But Fred, the entire travel industry, along with everyone else having access to Sabre, and American Airlines, are part of the conspiracy.

Second, Flight AA77 existed, and landed wherever it was supposed to. In this case the entire travel industry, American Airlines, the undead passengers, and so on, would have pointed this out. The press would have jumped on it.

But Fred, the entire press corps and the passengers were part of the conspiracy. Everyone knows this….

Actually, they have a point. The entire press corps must be complicit, since five phone calls would have sufficed whether the flight had existed or disappeared.

Third: AA77 ran into the Pentagon.

New York

The Twin Towers were brought down not by airplanes, but by a controlled demolition.

Possibility one: There were no airplanes. The airplanes we saw on television were done in Final Cut or other software. I have seen videos claiming this. Let’s think about it.

Shortly after the nonexistent planes did not ram the Towers, every television screen in Manhattan showed smoking impacts. Now, what were the most visible objects in the city? Probably the Twin Towers. What would be the reaction of everyone in New York watching the screen? Answer: Run out to look for themselves. All millions of them would notice that the screens didn’t match the buildings. They didn’t point this out, which can only mean that….

Fred, you fool, don’t you see that the entire population of Manhattan is part of the conspiracy?

Possibility two: There were airplanes and a controlled detonation. Why the redundancy is not clear. The explosives were secretly placed, meaning that the entire security and maintenance staff were complicit, until some airplanes could be found to run into the buildings. Ockham, call your office….

Since we have already established that the military blew up the Pentagon, it being characteristic of militaries to blow themselves up, we must assume that the military also was part of the conspiracy of the Twin Towers. That is, it seems unlikely that purely by chance the Pentagon decided to blow itself up and somebody else did the Towers the same day.

Possibility three: The buildings were brought down by airplanes.

Now, let us consider the controlled demolition itself. What is involved in a real demolition?

From Controlled Demolition Inc. a firm that does such demolition:

“On March 26, 2000, the firm used 4,450 pounds of dynamite placed in 5,905 carefully sited holes and 21.6 miles (34.8 km) of detonation cord inserted over a period of four months to take down the 25,000-ton concrete roof of the Kingdome in Seattle, Washington in 16.8 seconds….”

ORDER IT NOW

The Trade Centers singly or in combination, plus Building Seven, represented a far larger project. A pawn of the government like myself might wonder how tons and tons of explosives could be placed in a fully occupied building without anyone’s noticing. Those doing the placing would have to have been fully qualified and highly experienced in controlled demolition. (How many of these are there, and how hard to find?)

Maybe, though, the occupants of the Towers just weren’t paying attention. New Yorkers are famous for a tight focus on business. A businessman thinking about an international contract might easily not notice piles of rubble in the corridors, walls torn out, countless men attaching bundles of girders, the screech of saws cutting partway through steel to weaken it, and endless elevator loads of explosives in packages labeled “Sex books” to prevent suspicion.

I imagine Marylou Nicodemi, a legal secretary, asking a man tearing down the wall of her office: “What are you guys doing?”

“We’re the exterminators, ma’am. We’ve had complaints of rats.”

”Oh. Are you going to do this to the entire building?”

“Yes ma’am. Rats re devious creatures. If you don’t fight them on the lower floors, you have to fighter them on the upper floors. We have no choice.”

Realistically, the occupants of the towers would have to have noticed–from which we must conclude that….

Fred, they were part of the conspiracy.

To kill themselves?

Fred, you don’t understand the lengths ….

On some of the conspiracy sites I have read that actually the security guards planted the explosives in a manner requiring little or no wiring, no damage to the building, and few explosives. Not only were they expert at demolitions, admittedly the norm among janitors, but much better at it than Controlled Demolition Inc.

Fred, they are Illuminati, Residual Cathars, Thirty-Fifth Degree Masons, and they train in a secret base in Atlantis, with Lex Luther…

Running through all of this is that lots of people would be involved, yet none have come forward and blown the scam. You don’t obtain many tons of explosives without leaving a paper trail. The multitudinous security people in the Towers would all have to have been carefully placed there in advance, as even one informant would have blown the whole thing. The government would have to be complicit, given that the FBI could easily have tracked down the security people.

But Fred, they are all….

Here is the First Law of conspiracy theories, that to protect the theory you have to expand it. The press is a good example. Any reporter would slit the throats of his entire newsroom to break that story. Instant Pulitzer, national fame, huge book contracts, a movie, choice of jobs anywhere. The paper that did it would have the story of the century. It would have been easy. Think Seymour Hersh.

Yet nobody did it. The only explanation is, again, that the entire press corps….

Expand the conspiracy.

(Reprinted from Fred on Everything by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Foreign Policy, History • Tags: 9/11, Conspiracy Theories 
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  1. Read More
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    Ah, Fred

    The day after the Pentagon blew up
     
    Lame joke, since the only damage was to the wall. Still, it is difficult to imagine
    a newly trained pilot flying a jet so close to the ground (the winds reflect from it., so even harder to imagine).

    The flight 93 story is a fairy tale, it was clearly shot down by a US fighter jet.

    The tale of the rebellion of passengers is a lie.
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  2. Yeah. I don’t know much about any of this, but I do think it’s rather odd that these terrorists – who made so few other missteps that day – flew that plane into the back of the building, when the neo- classical facade on the front of the place basically made for a bullseye on Rumsfeld’s and all the big brass’s offices. Why fly into the other side where nobody was?

    150 or so peons counts as nobody, the highest ranked casualty was what, an 0-6? They could have taken out many hundreds more, people of real clout – by hitting the facade.

    Why didn’t they? Bad – piss poor – planning? Hmm. Maybe.

    Other thing, if they want to shut up conspiracy theorists they can show us the surveillance videos. There have to be dozens that clearly show the plane – this is the bloody Pentagon, not a corner store. Corner stores are usually covered by more than one camera. The Pentagon has to have many dozens. The FBI is said to have scooped up all the private ones, and now refuses to release them, despite freedom of information act requests.

    Sorry, Fred. Doesn’t wash, really. I’m not saying that there was a government conspiracy. I am saying that what happened was very strange, and that they could shut down all theorizing by showing us the tapes.

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    • Replies: @cucksworth
    That would be a sweet victory for the government if they released all the 9-11 footage that they are hiding. Also, building 7
  3. This is what happens when the government tries to keep too many secrets from the public and is also continuously caught lying to same.

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  4. “Here is the First Law of conspiracy theories, that to protect the theory you have to expand it. The press is a good example. Any reporter would slit the throats of his entire newsroom to break that story. Instant Pulitzer, national fame, huge book contracts, a movie, choice of jobs anywhere. The paper that did it would have the story of the century. It would have been easy.”

    A terrific , detailed story in the Chicago Tribune showing that the Israelis deliberately attacked what they knew was a USN ship, killing 34 and wounding 171. The reporter (who had already won a Pulitzer many years earlier) soon retired into anonymity:

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html

    Of course many others knew the basic facts of this incident, but this was the first time the story was laid out in detail in the mainstream daily press.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Vendetta
    The idea of the attack on USS Liberty being deliberate always bothered me because the Israeli Air Force jets were not sent in loaded for sinking a ship (hence why they failed to sink it). They came in with small rockets and napalm bombs - those are ground-attack weapons.

    Stuart Slade has an alternative narrative I find more plausible - far more detailed, and revolving around Israeli incompetence and neglect of procedure.

    The coverup and the treatment of the sailors, regardless, was utterly disgraceful.

    One of the more controversial events of the 1960s was the Israeli attack on the US Intelligence ship USS Liberty that was conducting intelligence operations off the Sinai coast when she was attacked by Israeli forces. Some of the controversy comes from allegations that the attack was deliberate and that the US colluded in it. In recent years, some of the signals pertaining to this tragedy have been released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty’s track chart and some intercepted Israeli messages. (ref-a)

    The story of the attack on the USS Liberty started on June 2, 1967, when she left Rota in Spain for the Middle East. There, in addition to supplies, she had taken on three Marine Corps Arabic translators, augmenting the three NSA Russian-language experts already on board. At the time, she was operating under orders from the US Sixth Fleet to stay “outside an arc whose radius is 240 miles from [the Egyptian city of] Port Said.” This is where the first error of judgement took place. Her handlers in the National Security Agency ignored the order and directed the ship to a point just outside Egypt’s territorial waters, a mere 12.5 miles from Port Said. These orders were recently released by the National Archives and were apparently the result of a perceived need to intercept communications that were uninterceptable from the specified distance. The most significant of these were tactical dialogues between Egyptian officers and their Soviet advisers. At the time it was regarded as being essential to determine the depth of Soviet involvement in the Egyptian military operations (hence the embarkation of the additional translators).

    On hearing of the decision by the NSA handlers, the US Navy sent a total of five subsequent cables from their European headquarters, instructing the USS Liberty to pull back to at least 100 miles. This is where the second glitch came in. Those messages (also released from the National Archives) were misrouted via the Philippines, and none reached the ship in time. In fact, the JCS’ orders would not be received by the Liberty until June 9, by which time they would no longer be relevant. Whether the misrouting was an accident or an NSA effort to keep the ship on the close-in station longer remains unknown but there is strong circumstantial reason to believe that NSA had much to gain by such misrouting. The fact that the signals went via the Philippines is unchallenged; the interesting question is why and how.

    Approaching the Sinai coast at dawn on June 6, the Liberty’s skipper, Commander William L. McGonagle, was deeply concerned by the risk to his ship and requested a destroyer escort, only to be reminded by the commander of the Sixth Fleet that the “Liberty is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters … and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation.” (National Archives) That’s glitch number three. It should be noted that the naval war was not going well for Israel at this point. The failure of the Israeli navy’s attacks on Egyptian and Syrian ports early in the war did little to assuage Israel’s fears. There was a very real fear inthe Israeli command that Arab naval units (that outnumbered the Israeli fleet by 5:1) would launch attacks on the Israeli coast. Consequently, the IDF Chief of Staff, Gen. Yitzhak Rabin, informed the U.S. Naval Attaché in Tel Aviv, Cmdr. Ernest Carl Castle, that Israel would defend its coast with every means at its disposal. Unidentified vessels would be sunk, Rabin advised; the United States should advise the Israelies of any ships operating in the area. The information provided by the US did not include the Liberty. While this was happening, Israel renewed its request that the United States assign a naval liaison officer to facilitate its communications with the US Navy. Previous to the outbreak of fighting, Israeli Ambassador Avraham Harman had warned the White House that “if war breaks out, we would have no telephone number to call, no code for plane recognition, and no way to get in touch with the U.S. Sixth Fleet.” The United States never approved the appointment of a liaison officer, nor did it inform Israel of the Liberty’s arrival in the area. Thats glitch number four.

    By June 8 the Liberty was patrolling between Port Said and Gaza, in a lane rarely used by commercial freighters and declared by Egypt as off-limits to neutral shipping. The track chart has also been released from the National Archives. It shows the Liberty starting from a position very close to the Egyptian coast and moving out to take up a racetrack pattern track off the Sinai coast. On June 8, just before six o’clock in the morning, an Israeli pilot reported finding a naval craft (“gray, bulky, with its bridge amidships”) 70 miles west of Gaza. Note that Israeli pilots were not trained for maritime attack or recon and, like most pilots, a ship was a ship was a ship. Nevertheless although he did not report seeing a flag, he did make out the hull marking “GTR-5,” which was enough for Israeli commanders to identify the ship as the USS Liberty and to mark it as a neutral vessel on their control board. Its worth noting that this was a manual plot, not a computerized system as we would use today for the same job. Manual control boards quickly become overloaded with data and have to be cleaned of old information regularly. (Ref b)

    At eleven o’clock in the morning, the watch at Israeli naval headquarters changed. The new officers, following procedures for removing old information and assuming the Liberty had sailed away, cleaned the board. For Israeli forces, the Liberty had ceased to exist. Glitch number five and a biggie. This is the one that was the proximate cause of the disaster. The Israeli officers here were culpably negligent in that they should have made sure a known US warship was out of the conflict area, not just assumed it was so. Unfortunately, the Israelis back then made a big thing out of their contempt for the routines, practices and doctrines employed by more established armed forces. In fact, they derided such practices as being typical of hidebound reactionaries; the Israeli Military Forces didn’t need all that nonsense about correct procedure. That attitude doomed Liberty.

    Now the situation began to escalate very quickly. Less than a half-hour later, Israeli soldiers in the Sinai coastal town of El Arish heard a violent explosion. The cause was probably either a detonation in an ammunition dump or an expended munition cooking off. However, these were rear echelon soldiers, freshly recalled reservists and were on edge – which is a polite way of saying panicky. They assumed it was enemy action, artillery fire, and reported it as such. Glitch number six. Now we have the old wildfire scenario. Because the explosion was reported as artillery fire, people began to look for the source – which was unlikely to be on land due to the tactical circumstances. If you look for something hard enough, you’ll find it even if it isn’t there. So, when the Israelis saw a ship off the coast, they assumed it was the source of the artillery fire – a warship doing shore bombardment. Just to make life complex, both Egyptian and Israeli sources had reported shelling of the area by Egyptian warships the previous day. A check with the situation board showed no friendly units or neutral ships in the area so it had to be hostile. Glitch number seven. Again, sloppy, poorly-disciplined officers making assumptions they shouldn’t. Another grievious fault for which they should be hung, drawn and quartered.

    Rabin was seriously concerned that the shelling was a prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank advancing Israeli troops. Since no fighter planes were available, the navy was asked to intercede, with the assumption that air cover would be provided later. More than half an hour passed without any response from naval headquarters in Haifa. The General Staff finally issued a rebuke: “The coast is being shelled and you – the navy – have done nothing.” Capt. Izzy Rahav in the operations room, needed no more prodding. He dispatched three torpedo boats of the 914th squadron, code-named “Pagoda,” to find the enemy vessel responsible for the bombardment and destroy it. The 914th consisted of three torpedo boats, the Peress, the Tahmass and the Yasoor. These were 60 ton craft built by France in the early 1950s (the last had entered service in 1956). They were armed with two 17.7 inch torpedo tubes, one 40 millimeter gun and four 20 millimeter weapons. They were powered by two Napier deltic diesels for a designed top speed of around 42 knots. By 1967, they were aging and had lost the top edge of their performance; their maximum speed was down to 36 knots in smooth water.

    The commander of those craft, Commander Udi Erell, had rules of engagement that precluded him from engaging any ship doing less than 20 knots – which, in 1967 meant pretty well every merchant ship in the world. However, now we have the mentality of FAC guys coming in. They tend to be young, enthusiastic – and reckless. This commander interpreted “don’t shoot at ships doing less than 20 knots” as “fire on any vessel going faster than 20 knots”. Glitch 8 quickly followed by Glitch 9. FAC skippers don’t really understand how much they get slowed down by even moderate seas when bigger ships don’t. He was doing 35 knots but was only catching the target slowly. Ensign Aharon Yifrah, combat information officer aboard the flagship of these torpedo boats miscalculated their target’s speed as 30 knots, not realizing sea conditions had slowed his real speed to around 25. Again we have the sloppy attitude of the Israeli Armed Forces entering the picture. A properly-kept track chart on the lead FAC would have shown something was not right with the picture. But keeping such charts is part of the administrivia that the Israelis affected to despise. Again, we also have to add in the attitude of the FAC commander. He WANTED that ship to be a legitimate target; the Israeli Navy was being overshadowed by the Army and Air Force and he wanted a victory. So he jumped to a wrong conclusion because that was a conclusion he wanted to jump to. Based on this false presumption, they prepared to attack. Ref – D

    Now we have horrible coincidences joining errors of judgement and technical glitches. The Liberty reached the end of her patrol racetrack and turned onto bearing 238 – putting her course back toward Egypt. The FAC skippers saw this and assumed their target was running for home. Worried they would lose their prey, they reported to the sitrep room that their target was now fleeing for home.

    Israeli naval commanders called up the air force and asked for help from whatever was available. What was available were two Mirages returning from a bombing strike, they were armed only with 30 millimeter cannons and air-to-air missiles and were very short on fuel. Had this been a deliberate attack they would have carried a warload better suited for attacking a ship. Making two passes at 3,000 feet, the formation commander reckoned that the ship was a “Z” or Hunt-class destroyer without the deck markings (a white cross on a red background) of the Israeli navy (which also operated both classes). The command pilot then spoke with air force commander Gen. Motti Hod, who asked him repeatedly whether he could see a flag. They failed to see either flags or markings on the ship. Not surprising, again these were pilots who were not trained for maritime operations and didn’t have any knowledge of naval operations or ship recognition. History is replete with examples of such pilots grotesquely misidentifying ships; although this was an error, it cannot be held against the pilots.

    After two low sweeps by the lead plane, at 1:58 p.m., the Mirages were cleared to attack. For want of anything more potent, they strafed the ship they saw. (by the way, its pure luck – good or ill – that they didn’t shoot up the Israeli FAC – they just hit the first ship they saw). The first salvos caught the Liberty’s crew in “stand-down” mode; several officers were sunning themselves on the deck, unaware of the Israeli jets bearing down on them. Before they could take shelter, rockets and 30-mm cannon shells stitched the ship from bow to stern, severing the antennas and setting oil drums on fire. Nine men were killed in the initial assault, and several times that number wounded, among them McGonagle.

    Minutes later came a second group of planes, Super-Mysteres, equally ill-suited for a naval engagement. They had been diverted from a strike against Egyptian infantry positions and carried napalm (but had been diverted going out, not coming back so had a decent fuel reserve). They dropped their canisters and one set fire to the deck, enshrouding the ship in smoke. The air attacks lasted 14 minutes; by 2:20 the aircraft had finished with their assault.

    It was at this junction that one Israeli pilot finally recognized Latin, not Arabic, letters on the hull. He made a desperate emergency call to the Israeli air controllers causing them to call off the action immediately. Now we have glitch ten. The Israeli communications system in 1967 was basically WW2 equipment that had been overhauled and modernized. It was already overloaded with running a fast-moving mobile war and , thanks to a breakdown in that communications system, the message to the Navy was caught in a backlog of calls waiting to go out. Classic case of too much flow down too small a pipeline. As a result, the order was very long delayed in reaching the navy; it finally made it to the FACs just after 4:00 pm. ref e

    It is at this point that we have a minor mystery. One of the major claims is that the Israelies were jamming US radio frequencies in order to prevent calls from help getting out. If true, this would be powerful evidence to suggest that the attackw as deliberate. There are, however, serious problems with this assertion. Firstly, the Liberty was a specialist electronic warfare ship and carried advanced ECCM equipment; it is hard to see how she could have been closed down so comprehensively. Secondly, the Israeli capability in EW at this time was virtually non-existant; neither aircraft nor the torpedo boats carried any ECM equipment. Thirdly, the communications equipment on the Liberty was such that jamming equipment would have to be placed within a series of carefully-defined positions relative to the ship and fourthly, any jamming capable of taking down US Navy communications so comprehensively would have affected a wide area. No such jamming was reported anywhere else by anybody. This leaves only three possible explanations for the alleged jamming (1) The crewmen on Liberty who reported such jamming are lying, (2) the reports that crewmen made such claims are fabricated or (3) whatever happened wasn’t jamming. If we discount (1) we are left with either fabrication or something else. The accusations made against the Israelies feature extensive fabrication so (2) is certainly possible but the most likely explanation is that the Liberty had already been strafed and napalmed with over 800 holes in her. The entire superstructure of the ship, from the main deck to the bridge, was aflame.The “jamming” was probably simply battle damage that had knocked out the ships wave guides and antennas.

    There now followed a lull in the action that lasted for 24 minutes while the Israeli torpedo boats caught up with the Liberty. Think about the geometry of this. They are sailing out to attack a ship offshore that has just turned away from them. That means they are in a tail chase. Now the Liberty was rated at 17.7 knots – lets say she had cranked up her engines and was doing 16. The Israeli FAC are rated at 40 knots – meaning at best the closing speed is 24 knots. However, in any sort of rough sea its unlikely they were doing more than 30 knots and possibly were down to 25. So that gives us a closing speed of (at best) 16 knots and possibly as little as 8. However, at those speeds, the FAC are bouncing all over the place and are throwing up large clouds of spray. The vibration is intense and the noise is deafening. Incidently, these are not the modern 200 – 400 ton, 56-meter missile craft, they are 70 foot MTBs, 10 feet shorter than a US WW2 PT boat (albeit somewhat heavier that the 35 – 45 ton PT boats). Ref f

    Now its reasonable to assume the Liberty had her stern to the FAC. Think about this. The Flag is at the stern, the ship is heading away from the FAC that are chasing her from astern. That means they are seeing the Flag (if they see it at all) edge-on from the rear. Their only hope of recognizing it is if it flutters from side to side. So to state the Israelies must have seen the Flag, we have to ask the two guys on the bridge to recognize a fluttering flag edge-on from a range of 4 to 8 miles from a 60 ton speedboat bouncing around in a cloud of spray while being shaken to pieces by two 4,000 shaft horsepower diesels running flat out. Now add in that the Liberty had been hit by a tank of napalm and was burning – in other words there were clouds of black smoke around her making visibility intermittant. Suddenly, it doesn’t seem so easy does it? ref g

    At this point the Israeli flagship signaled “AA” – “identify yourself.” Due to damaged equipment, McGonagle could only reply in kind, AA, with a hand-held Aldis lamp. Now we have a weird coincidence – Udi Erell’s father had been in command of a 1956 operation where the Israeli Navy had captured the Egyptian destroyer Ibrahim al-Awwal. This ship had tried to pose as a neutral ship when the israeli force closed in and had also replied to the interrogatory AA by responding with a repeat AA. There is little doubt Udi Erell was familiar with that story as family history and was sure that he now faced an enemy ship.

    Now we have another glitch, number 11. One of the American sailors on board, disregarded Captain McGonagle’s order not to fire on the approaching craft, and opened up with a deck gun. (ref h) Another machinegun opened fire by itself when fired cooked off its ready-use ammunition. Erell repeatedly requested permission from naval headquarters to return fire. Rahav finally approved.

    The Israeli FAC skipper also jumped to the assumption that the ship in front of him was Egyptian (Glitch 12), consulted his intelligence manual, identified it as the Egyptian naval freighter El Quseir, This identification has been criticised on grounds that the El Quseir was smaller than the Liberty and lacked her distinctive antennas. In reality, the El Quseir was laid up in Alexandria and its asserted (without proof) that “the Israelies must have known that”. Its also pointed out (quite correctly) that the Israeli FAC had a copy of JFS on board. Consulting a copy of the relevent edition of that publication, it does indeed list both Liberty and El Quseir – but includes photographs of neither. Rather pathetically, those who dispute the identification point out that the El Quseir was painted silver rather than the Liberty’s Haze Gray. In reality, under the circumstances prevailing, telling the difference between dirty silver and shiny gray is very hard – especially since both would have taken on a blue tinge by reflection from the surrounding sea and sky. However, all thats irrelevent since we now have Glitch 13 – he wasn’t trying to find out “which ship is this” he was looking for “which Egyptian Ship looks most like the one in front of me”

    The FAC commander elected to fire torpedoes. Now lets look at those torpedoes. They are not modern 21 inch jobs. The FAC in question were armed with World War Two ex-Italian 17.7 inch torpedoes. These had a 440 pound warhead and had a speed of 30 knots to 8,000 meters (ref i) . Distinctly lacking in range speed and striking power. Also unguided; there is no way a torpedo like that is aimed at any specific part of the ship. At 2:45 the Israeli FAC fired five torpedoes at a range of 6,000 meters for a single hit at around 2:50. This killed 25 men almost all of them from the intelligence section.

    The torpedo boats then closed in and from 3:00 onwards circled the ship, from the stern spraying it with 20 millimeter and 40 millimeter gunfire. When they reached the bows, the captain of one boat saw “GTR-5″ on the hull. He immediately halted fire, extended help to the Liberty, and called for rescue helicopters. For the first time in the whole stupid story somebody did something right. Two Israeli Helicopters reached the Liberty and offered assistance. Erell, shouting through a bullhorn, also tried to communicate with the ship but Captain McGonagle refused to respond. Realizing, finally, that his assailants had been Israeli, he flagged the torpedo boats away and made a gesture that the Israelies describe as “obscene, but under the circumstances, understandable”. By 5:05 p.m., the Israelis had broken off contact, and the Liberty, navigating virtually without systems, with 34 dead and 171 wounded aboard, staggered out to sea.

    I must make it quite clear that I do not condone the Israeli conduct in this affair; their performance was lacking even the earliest signs of competance and their professional negligence was profoundly culpable. They screwed up royally and deserve all the blame that can be ladled over their brainless heads. But they didn’t do it deliberately. 13 bad mistakes, errors of judgement and horrible coincidences. Its right to be enraged with the Israelis for their sloppy staffwork, lax procedures and inattention to detail caused them to launch an attack against a neutral ship. It is indeed with them that the ultimate blame lies for it is the Israeli disregard for careful procedure and their deliberate neglect of proper administration that caused the disaster. Their arrogant assumption that they alone had the secret of how to run a modern war and nobody else knew any part of it was largely to blame for the tragedy. Martin Van Creveld describes the Israeli attitude to proper procedure and to administrative advice as being arrogant bordering on boorish and frequently deliberately bullying, rude and offensive. (ref j) The US Navy also has some share of the blame for there should have been a liaison officer to provide a direct point of contact. Even after she was hit, the Americans had difficulty locating the Liberty, the JCS placing it at “60-100 miles north of Egypt.” If neither the US Navy nor even the President of the United States could know where the Liberty was, it seems unreasonable to expect that the Israelis, in the thick of battle, should have been able to locate it. The NSA must carry its share for keeping the ship dangerously close to the enemy coast and ignoring navy advice.

    A year later the destroyer Eilat was sunk by the same combination of blundering incompetence, stupidity and arrogance (three Egyptian missiles had something to do with it as well). (ref k) . Indeed, for those investigating the attack on Liberty, the command disasters involved in the sinking of the Eilat should be required reading. The same factors of boorish arrogance, incompetence, inadequate command control, defective equipment and long-delayed communications make their miserable appearnace.

    Six years after the Liberty incident, another Israeli Navy warship, the Miznak went into action. She was on her way to assist Hanit that had run aground on a sandbar off the Sinai coast. The captain (Captain Barkai) gave orders for the Miznak to keep out of a 45 kilometer circle around Port Said due to the danger of missile attack. He then went to his cabin and slept. The second in command (Udi Erell) was duty officer in the CIC. He was dozing in the CIC Ops Chair when he was struck by the silence in room. The Ops crew were asleep. Worse, the Miznak was heading on a straight line for Port said and was already well within the 45 kilometer danger zone. EW was off, the radar watch was asleep, helm was asleep. And the instruments were telling the crew that Egyptian missile craft were coming out of port. Commander Erell literally kicked the CIC crew into wakefulness as Captain Moshe Tabak, the group commander sent an in-clear radio warning of an impending attack (in clear because Miznak had not responded to coded radio signals – cypher room was asleep as well). Udi Erell slammed the throttles forward personally and swung the boat through 180 degrees. As he did so he saw the launch signature of P-15 missiles on the horizon. Four P-15s had been fired by two Project 183R (Komar) FAC-M and were already on their way. One went into the sea when its gyros tumbled, a second went into the sea far astern, the third overshot and landed in the sea three miles ahead of Miznak and the fourth exploded in the sea 100 meters aft of Miznak. (ref l)

    Why is this incident so significant? Note the name of the operations officer on Mizhak – Udi Erell. In 1967 he had commanded a squadron of three FAC. Six years later, in 1973, he had been demoted to the ops officer of one such craft. Yet Udi Erell is the son of Shlomo Erell, the Chief of Staff of the Israeli Navy. Despite being VIP’s son, the Israeli Navy really busted Udi Erell’s chops. If it was a conspiracy they’d have found somebody else less well-connected to be the scapegoat.

    References:

    Ref a – Documents relating to the Liberty incident – papers released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty track chart, transcripts of the Liberty signal log, intercepts of Israeli signals and statements by crew and captain. In short, the bulk of the declassified US official documentation.

    Ref b The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. This places great stress on the total obsolescence of the Israeli C3I system and the very poor command structure of the Israeli armed forces.

    Ref c Information from the Israeli side taken from evidence given at enquiries on the Liberty attack.

    Ref d Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch details the Israeli Navy;s appalling discipline and sloppy incompetance. The comments are all the more devastating because the author doesn’t realize the impact of the matters he’s relating.

    ref f Again, The Sword and The Olive details the hopelessly bad command structure of the Israeli Armed Forces.

    Ref f Janes Fighting Ships 1966 – 67. 3 of Israel’s FAC were old RN boats built in 1942, six were French built in 1950 and the most modern were three built in Italy in 1956

    ref g This is a point anybody with a speedboat can check for themselves.

    ref h Captain McGonagle’s statement to the Liberty Enquiry. National Archives.

    ref i Bagnasco Submarines of WW2 for details of these torpedoes.

    Ref j The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. It should be noted that four of Van Creveld’s sons have served in the IDF.

    ref k Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch The sheer incompetence surrounding the sinking of the Eilat is breathtaking – but another story. I believe that a US or UK skipper losing his ship in such a manner would be charged with manslaughter.

    Ref l Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch (again). The Miznak story defies belief. Its impossible to conceive of any professional navy (or most amateur ones) behaving in such a manner. The story is given veracity by Rabinovitchs treatment of the events – his cast being it showed how hard the Israeli Navy was fighting. Van Creveld shows in The Sword and the Olive that even by 1973, the basic problems with the IDF command structure had not been fixed.
     
  5. A lot of straw man arguments here Fred, not saying I don’t agree with many of your points but you could do better.
    Sure as hell doesn’t refute everything.

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    • Replies: @Ace
    Planes hit the Pentagon and the Towers. Impossible for amateurs to place sufficient charges in the towers.

    What else do you need to know?
  6. pathetic

    Possibility one: There were no airplanes.

    um, Fred.. no airplane hit building seven

    this beam did not cut itself

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Scq5WpGiD4w/TmWM8tosxfI/AAAAAAAACwg/rroBM3CIRg8/s400/thermate%2Bcut.jpg

    it has slag around the cut. That’s what you get when you cut steel Fred

    it isn’t that they don’t want a Pulitzer, they just don’t want to end up like Michael Hastings, who was likely chasing the Pulitzer you’re talking about.

    as Fred makes clear, it’s very easy to get journalists to toe the line when it comes to which side of the bread has the butter on it

    or more the point, invitations to the cocktail party circuit in DC where he likes to visit periodically

    some people sell out on the cheap

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    • Replies: @Lawrence Fitton
    there was a twenty story gash in the north face of building number 7 from one of the decimated twin towers.
    9/11 conspiracy theories are not even theories. they have no demonstrable proof, unlike, say, relativity theory. theories must be tested.
    they are hypotheses.
    , @Jonathan Revusky

    pathetic
     
    Yeah, isn't it incredible? It's like Freddy boy isn't even trying. Does he formulate a single bona fide argument in the entire piece?

    Like he knows some guy who says he saw the plane fly into the Pentagon. Sure you do, Freddy boy, so fuckin' what. I know somebody who says he saw... (fill in the blank..)

    Total crap. And it's consciously so. The article is 100% intellectual fraud. And Fred knows it.

    Rurik, I know you are very inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt. I remember our endless discussion of whether Geokat was acting in bad faith. But I would strongly suggest that we should not cut Freddy boy any slack here.

    I'm certainly not inclined to turn the other cheek. This guy has now shown his true colors as a shit eater. This man is obviously being dishonest, and that is a terrible thing, and it is just not acceptable.

    I don't think we should pull any punches with this guy. A guy like this is an unprincipled traitorous scumbag and I think we have to call it out. I have no intention of biting my tongue in any discussion regarding this kind of ass-licking whore.

  7. No doubt there were some wacky conspiracies about 9/11, but some were quite credible, such as the extraordinary number of put options being placed on United and American Airlines in the days leading up to 9/11/01.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/profiting-from-disaster/

    Some reports concluded that the twin towers were designed to withstand an impact from a jumbo jet, yet they neatly collapsed into their own footprints at free fall speed after sustaining asymmetrical damage from the crashes.

    http://www1.ae911truth.org/faqs/655-faq-9-were-the-twin-towers-designed-to-survive-the-impact-of-the-airplanes.html

    The female newscaster who reported that WTC 7 had collapsed about seven minutes before it actually did. I want her to give me the winning lotto numbers.

    The Israeli “art students” who were shadowing Mohammed Atta and other 9/11 hijackers and apprehended by the DEA. Then there’s the “dancing Israelis” who were filming and celebrating when the first plane hit the twin tower. Carl Cameron of FOX News even aired a segment about the Israeli “art students” and it might still be available on youtube if it wasn’t flushed down the memory hole.

    The predominantly Jewish neo-conservatives who, in their policy paper “A Clean Break”, stated that an event on par with Pearl Harbor would be needed to galvanize Americans to “democratize” the Middle East (translation: destroy any Muslim nation Israel doesn’t like).

    These were just some of the many anomalies that I can recall. But Fred uses examples of the most outlandish of 9/11 conspiracies to disparage and shame any skeptic.

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  8. I doubt Mr. Reed is a neo-con agent, but he is trying to be, perhaps because all his income comes from the US Govt. Surely he knows about basic security. The Pentagon back then had at least 100 security cameras all around. Local businesses had a hundred pointed at various angles.

    Where is the videotape of this airliner? Just one! Do some research, and all you find are stories about the FBI seizing videotapes from nearby businesses, never to be seen again.

    Also read about “ground effect”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_(aerodynamics)

    Aircraft with big wings compress air beneath those wings that provide lift so they can fly. As they fly lower, that air becomes more compressed as it hits the ground and forces the aircraft upward. Any aeronautical engineer familiar with large aircraft will tell you at that speed a large aircraft could not have flown that low, the ” ground affect” would have bounced it back up higher. And there is a lack of burn marks from hot jet engine exhaust on the pristine Pentagon lawn.

    I will not bother to address disappeared aircraft parts and bodies. From my blog:

    Oct 3, 2013 – CNN Reports!

    You may have heard wild conspiracy theories that a commercial airliner did not hit the Pentagon on 9-11. Yes, it’s true that the place hit was the only part of the Pentagon unoccupied that day as it was undergoing renovation. Yes, it’s true that no large airplane parts, bodies, luggage, or seats were found. The small debris was immediately removed by hand from the scene before FAA accident investigators arrived. Yes, it’s true that none of the dozens of security cameras in and around the Pentagon recorded an incoming airplane, although a fuzzy clip one second clip was eventually released. And yes, it’s true that a CNN reporter on the scene reported that no airplane hit the Pentagon. Ignore all these facts, lest you suffer ridicule.

    Rest assured Mr. Reed, your government direct deposit checks remain secure with this article. Others who depend on Uncle Sam’s checks are not so timid. For example, former Republican Senator Bob Graham is a crazy tin foil hatter. In a recent “60 Minutes” interview, he said:

    “I think it is implausible to believe that 19 people, most of whom didn’t speak English, most of whom had never been in the United States before, many of whom didn’t have a high school education– could’ve carried out such a complicated task without some support from within the United States.”

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-911-classified-report-steve-kroft/

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    "Any aeronautical engineer familiar with large aircraft will tell you at that speed a large aircraft could not have flown that low, the ” ground affect” would have bounced it back up higher."
     
    I'll call BS here. Within one wingspan of the ground you will get a pronounced float effect called "ground effect", so you just pitch the nose lower. Yes, you can fly any aircraft, even a big one, into the ground at a given point. You merely hold a fixed reference point on your target at a steady place on the windscreen and adjust as necessary. It's so easy even a goatherd jihadi or a truther could do it.

    And for those who say you can't fly a big aircraft so fast so low, you would be surprised how fast you can fly low when you don't care or know about structural failure.
  9. Are some of your wife’s family members applying for visa to come to America?

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  10. Nothing Is True and Everything Is Possible is an entertaining if at times bleak chronicle of these years, depicting a world “where gangsters become artists, gold‑diggers quote Pushkin, Hells Angels hallucinate themselves as saints”. The cast of characters is so bizarre they must be real, from bearded nationalist bikers to self-help cultists and their supermodel victims.

    https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/feb/04/nothing-is-true-and-everything-is-permitted-peter-pomerantsev-review-russia-oil-boom

    Maybe the economy sucks, the cast of characters is growing though. With Hells Angels saints for Trump and Putinism who can lose?

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  11. I’ll let you guy’s tear Fred to pieces…I don’t seem to be able to muster they energy to verbally pistol-whip the deniers with the truth anymore. But, boy-oh-boy, back in the day, 10 yrs ago, when I still cared, I’d have them so stymied all they could do is blurt out “Nadafinga!” and storm out of the thread!

    I’ve learned that once a person believes in something – no matter how illogical or stupid it might be – it’s nearly impossible to get them to “see the light.” I think it’s a genetic thing…you’re able to see the truth or you’re not. It’s just that simple. Now, having said that lemme quickly add that it is possible to reorientate a persons cognitive processes, to reeducate them, if you will, and get them to see the “truth” being offered. But that takes a long time and a lot of effort. Much easier just to tell them to go fuck themselves, lol.

    This cognitive “stubbornness” is hard wired in our brains…it’s a natural and necessary function of our subconscious minds. It is both genetic and epigenetic, and thank God for it! Can you imagine what this world would be like if everyone could just drop one belief in favor of another competing belief right there on the spot? This world would be in total chaos in a week or two.

    When the Communist Jews went into a country (after subverting it from within…just like they’re doing in the US today with their “Social Justice Warrior” cultural shock troopers.) they didn’t fuck around…they immediately rounded up the intelligentsia in each city, nation wide, and killed them as fast as they could. If you were “lucky” you would receive “cultural reeducation”…in which they would literally beat the “truth” into you!

    Anyhoo, I’ll leave you to it…don’t be too kind to ol’ Fred here, this is, after all, a war we’re involved in!

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    • Replies: @TJM
    Great post, and right on the money.

    I heard a phrase the other day that was used in describing how Jews have created a world to their liking in the West, "Gaslighting". It basically means making someone doubt reality to the point they doubt their own sanity and take others reality for their own.

    Gaslighting is a movie from the 40's and is truly a window in America and its psychopathic abusers.

    A certain segment of psychopathic Jews have always had money, taking advantage of religious dogma that prohibited Gentiles of lending money for profit, how convenient. With that money they have purchased the media and entertainment industries, and thanks to crooks like Reagan and Clinton, they were able to take over most US media through consolidation. Then the music industry, and certainly entertainment/Hollywood, Wall Street, and finally US politics. And all the while the American people ignorant of the threat or simply too naive to understand who wicked people can actually be, stood by and did nothing.
  12. any dumb fuck know what is.. onliest thing is if they got one stinkin’honest bone in their body.

    Not too many honest type any more

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  13. A jokey analysis of 9/11 conspiracy theories, the US Government’s, or any one else’s, seems pointless, not to say in poor taste.

    Since even the Chairman, legal council and sundry other members of the 9/11 Commission have expressed grave reservations about the conclusions of their own inquiry, and since NIST who provided the official analysis on the fall of WTC7, were forced to admit that that building descended with the acceleration of gravity, i.e., in unimpeded free fall, over a distance of 30 m, or eight stories, it is hard to account for that building’s collapse without invoking the use of explosives, a possibility Fred discounts without any apparent knowledge of the subject other than some notion of the considerable length of wire that would have been required.

    NIST’s theory, i.e., the official conspiracy theory, that WTC7 fell because of fires has been dismissed by the Chair of the School of Engineering at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks, as having a probability of zero — that being the inference from a detailed modelling study. Perhaps the learned professor is mistaken, but he seems to have given the matter more careful consideration than Fred.

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  14. Fred, in a photo caption you misidentified the Harpoon missile shown as being a TLAM. After insulting Americans for their lack of missile systems knowledge.

    Hire a new Mexican proofreader old chap. Or even an American one.

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  15. Could it be that you worry about your pension, Fred? With this very one-sided “analysis” you unfortunately do not live up to your usual razorsharp reporting, far from it. Real pity.

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  16. Oh dear. Kids, remember you must ground the Faraday Cage on your cerebral bits. As it is, that tin foil is actually acting like an antenna. It’s a rookie mistake.

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  17. I once worked with an Obama-worshipping 9/11 Truther. While neither denying or supporting his conspiracy claims, my response to him when he got on his hobby horse was that, even though Obama wasn’t President on 9/11/01, wouldn’t at least one other high government official that WAS in on the 9/11 conspiracy have briefed Obama on the “facts.” Of course. So, Obama is in on the conspiracy too! And that make Obama eeeevill, just like George W. Bush!

    Didn’t Popular Mechanics thoroughly debunk the 9/11 Truthers a few years ago. Or is the entire staff of Popular Mechanics in on it too?

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    • Replies: @Quartermaster
    It doesn't matter what the facts are, the foil hat brigade doesn't care. They have their view, and nothing will change it.

    PM has not been the only ones to debunk the truther myths. They have been debunked repeatedly.
    , @Carlton Meyer
    I like "Popular Mechanics" but it is a neo-con run CIA propaganda outlet. Whenever our government wants to disprove critics about something technical, PM comes out with the needed story. It has performed this duty for years.

    Reviewing Mr. Reed's evidence, it seems a retired friend of his heard a loud noise, glanced out his window, and saw a tail flash by which looked like that of an American Airlines aircraft tail. That's it? Some have speculated that a drone was used that was painted with an American Airlines color scheme. So that may debunk Mr. Reed's "hard" evidence, allowing him to consider reality.

    As the Saker recently wrote, most people refuse to even look at the numerous documentaries because the idea is too difficult for them to accept. The Denver PBS station did a documentary in 2012 that addressed this "cognitive dissonance' issue while presenting hard evidence that specially made military nano-thermite (not just thermite) was used to knock down the buildings.

    This quickly became the most watched PBS video nationwide, with positive reader comments. It was predictable that PBS leaders quickly denounced it, who said it really wasn't a PBS documentary. Some were asked if they had watched it, and they said no!

    http://www.pbs.org/ombudsman/2012/09/the_disaster_that_keeps_on_giving_1.html

    They wanted the local PBS station to remove it but said they would not demand it in the spirit of freedom of speech. It remained for a few months to become the most watched PBS show ever, and now, dead links:

    http://video.cpt12.org/video/2270078138 http://www.pbs.org/video/2270078138/

    but youtube still has it up. I highly recommend it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddz2mw2vaEg
    , @Reactionary Utopian

    Didn’t Popular Mechanics thoroughly debunk the 9/11 Truthers a few years ago.
     
    Oh! Well, never mind, then. If it was Popular Mechanics ... let's face it, skeptics, when Popular Mechanics debunks something, that's about as debunked as debunked gets. No bunks left. Them bunks is pretty much nuked. Case closed. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along. Move along.
    , @Biff
    *Allegory*

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory
    , @Biff
    *Allegory*
    "One of the best-known examples of allegory, Plato's Allegory of the Cave, forms a part of his larger work The Republic. In this allegory, Plato describes a group of people who have lived chained in a cave all of their lives, facing a blank wall (514a–b). The people watch shadows projected on the wall by things passing in front of a fire behind them and begin to ascribe forms to these shadows, using language to identify their world (514c–515a). According to the allegory, the shadows are as close as the prisoners get to viewing reality, until one of them finds his way into the outside world where he sees the actual objects that produced the shadows. He tries to tell the people in the cave of his discovery, but they do not believe him and vehemently resist his efforts to free them so they can see for themselves (516e–518a). This allegory is, on a basic level, about a philosopher who upon finding greater knowledge outside the cave of human understanding, seeks to share it as is his duty, and the foolishness of those who would ignore him because they think themselves educated enough.[2]"
  18. The daughter of a friend witnessed the second aircraft striking the second tower. She ran for her life.

    If the two towers were indeed demolished by the aircraft strikes, and I’m sure they were, then fretting about the Pentagon or Building 7 is odd; a theory that says that the major bit of 9/11 happened but that the minor bits were faked seems pretty silly to me.

    The only conspiracy theory that has any appeal to me is one of my own (though no doubt I’m the millionth person to have thought of it): that the hijackers supposed themselves to be acting for UBL but had themselves been hijacked and were in truth acting for someone else. For example, maybe they were acting for the security service of a Middle Eastern power: Saudi Arabia, say, or Iran. Or for the Pope, or Queen Elizabeth, or the KGB, or the Freemasons, or Lord Rothschild, or the Deuxieme Bureau, or for Fidel Castro. Or even for Slick Willie and Hellary.

    If I had to guess, I’d put my money on the Clintons.

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    • Replies: @edNels
    the official and msm story is obvious bull pucky..

    Now do we need to run through the weeds with the Sweeds?

    No, you gatsto know that the various assholes that had access... did the demolition plan... did put the stuff where it needed to be put... over some time interval...maybe months... and subterfuges such as spray on ''fire retardant'' or other such spray on stuff...maybe to socalled keep the ''asbestos fixied and to improve that sort of a non issue type deal..

    I mean...There was a video of the Israeli art students who lived in building...and did you see the work they did? They made a porch out of one of the windows.... way up theah! didya see dat?

    Hell the bastahds had free reign through them buildings for lot a time... coulda planted... but lets be clear... that was one damedwell figured out demo... one ofthe best..
  19. Fred has lost his fastball, to quote Vox Day. Observation is not conspiracy, and the wacky, silly stuff Fred mentions here is almost as ridiculous as the Official Story, especially the part about the passports of the Evildoers being found. C’mon Fred – stop playing around.

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  20. Building 7 is a problem, Fred. Please discuss why the physicists, and engineers are wrong…

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  21. Pentagon after a 757 supposedly hit it.

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_30TpBo-V_Ds/TQ0CdIQzg5I/AAAAAAAAAQ8/hs_DdBb8JNI/s1600/pentagon%2Battack%2Bearly%2Bpicture.jpg

    Here’s a mock up picture showing the size of the plane.

    http://911mhairi.weebly.com/uploads/2/1/0/4/21048756/3852631.jpg?413

    Now here’s a 757.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Icelandair_Boeing_757-256_Wedelstaedt.jpg

    See those big things on the wing. They’re called engines and they are made of a very heavy high nickel alloy steel. Similar to meteorites. So where’s the holes they made when they went into the building. There’s a hole for the nose of the plane. The nose is very weak compared to the heat resistant heavy engines. I doubt more than a 3/8 thick aluminum. Like thick sheet metal. The fuselage is way weaker than an engine and it supposedly went all the way through the Pentagon. Where’s the damn holes for those engines? Why didn’t they go through? We see an engine on the lawn in one photo. Where’s the hole where it gouged up the lawn? How did it get on the lawn if the plane was going over 500 mph? What about what the CNN reporter first reported?

    As initially reported from the scene by CNN Correspondent Jamie McIntyre:

    “From my close-up inspection, there’s no evidence of a plane having crashed anywhere near the Pentagon.

    The only site, is the actual side of the building that’s crashed in. And as I said, the only pieces left that you can see are small enough that you pick up in your hand. There are no large tail sections, wing sections, fuselage, nothing like that anywhere around which would indicate that the entire plane crashed into the side of the Pentagon and then caused the side to collapse.

    Even though if you look at the pictures of the Pentagon you see that the floors have all collapsed, that didn’t happen immediately. It wasn’t until almost about 45 minutes later that the structure was weakened enough that all of the floors collapsed.”

    I believe something hit the Pentagon but it wasn’t a 757.

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    • Replies: @Horten
    Can someone name an airliner,that can go 500 miles per hour at sea level without loosing its wings?
  22. Hmm . . . Fred can be tirelessly probing at times, such as his probing questions regarding evolution. But here he joins the chorus of ridicule of conspiracy theories. He’s normally highly suspicious of government and military deceptions, but in this case, he joins in the ridicule even in light of the fact that the CIA is seemingly behind the conception of the very words “conspiracy theory”.

    Let’s face it: ridiculing conspiracy theories en masse is a very easy thing to do because there are a lot of nutjobs out there parroting them. But at the same time, it used to be a conspiracy theory that the US started the Vietnam War via the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. There are loads of examples of conspiracy theories that turned out to be true. It’s funny: there’s a reason why “conspiracy” is a word. It’s because people conspire to do things. The DNC conspired to repress Sanders votes so that Clinton could win the nomination. The Bush administration conspired to peddle falsehoods to invade Iraq.

    Any sort of credible suspicion of malfeasance or even incompetence on 9/11 is collectively smeared as conspiracy theory along with the most outlandish of claims. We know enough about the aftermath to know that at the very least, the government has tried to whitewash what happened to cover up incompetence. That is a conspiracy to cover-up evidence to present a false narrative. The Commission chose to ignore certain narratives and they covered-up Saudi involvement, on whatever level it occurred.

    Reed gives us a cursory treatment of the claims that a missile took out the Pentagon, and about this claim, I agree with him. But because the claims about the missile are outlandish, he then uses that premise as evidence that controlled demolition is also outlandish. He uses information from ONE demolition company to support his claims while ignoring the information from many other companies, engineers, physicists, etc.

    Reed then uses the an absurd example of gaining access to the structures to plant bombs:

    ““We’re the exterminators, ma’am. We’ve had complaints of rats.”

    ”Oh. Are you going to do this to the entire building?”

    “Yes ma’am. Rats re devious creatures. If you don’t fight them on the lower floors, you have to fighter them on the upper floors. We have no choice.””

    This is curious because, as I said before, Fred has a very probing mind. I find it odd that he doesn’t consider the use of elevator work as a possibility. Why? There are loads of discussions about this.

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  23. Fred,
    as almost all liberals, is one type of person who can convince us temporarily, that is a very insightful. But it’s like, this person can not speak much, if not it will prove that it is not so keen that we may think .

    It’s what happens to Fred. Like almost all liberals, even more explicitly stupid, Fred hits often and makes us hope that your brain is able to be consistent for permanent time, but then …

    Fred mix some absurd real conspiracy theories that seem to have been invented, for example:

    ” There were no airplanes ”

    for what

    for list the theories and for create a false integrity among all of this theories as if all of it were the same thing.

    The official version of the attack is clear

    ” Muslim terrorists planned all this”

    However, what seems to be is

    ” The ” American ” government planned all this in order to create an irrefutable evidence to attack the middle east, protect the interests of a certain tribe and plant seeds for a cultural war ”

    ” Hbd ” is implicitly neocon in the same time the mainstreamable version of the ‘alt right’ Also is implicitly neocon.

    I know little to nothing about engineering, so I will not focus my attention on this part.

    I will concentrate on giant truisms, true / classical white elephant right in the middle of the room.

    One example already put into disrepute almost everything the ”Western governments” say

    ” Why the hell Europe, USA / Canada, British Oceania need to receive millions of ‘immigrants’ **

    Even the distant and patagonic Argentina **

    as happens in the Bible, this is a giant evidence as the main core of all that is happening in the West, the main target: the Caucasian populations. All roads leads to ” ‘white’ people”.

    The elites are full of psychopaths, narcissists, in short, people with certain mental qualities as the subtlety of thought, the ability to understand the reality for many perspectives because after all, you do not have a ” religion ” or ” ideology ” monopolizing much of his mind to serve it.

    Just a simple observation: ”en mass’ immigration to the nations of European racial extract”,
    and it’s enough, at least for ” good perceivers ” light the alert.

    A certain tribe dominate hollywood, great % of multiculti-supporters (only-white) are anjools, or are married with one of them, or are in the ”same’ vibe…

    Since this certain tribe increased their power in the ”America” government non-white mass imigration started, anti-’white’ culture started, ”Frankfurt school”

    truisms…

    just a hipnotic seal OR someone who is receiving $$ that could dispute this facts

    coincidences or cohencidences*

    Read More
    • Replies: @dahoit
    I take the extreme hostility to Donald Trump by the zionists as proof of the fear of exposure of the day that changed everything as being for and by zion.
    They filmed the first plane hit as documenting the event,and went on Israeli TV and said so.
    Dancing Israelis.
  24. The reason the 9/11 truthers are still in business is that the government has no credibility. The official accounts of the 9/11 events may be entirely factual, but huge numbers of Americans still would not believe them if the sources were inside the government.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    " The official accounts of the 9/11 events may be entirely factual, but huge numbers of Americans still would not believe them if the sources were inside the government."

    No, they cannot be factual. There are far too many self-contradictory statements in them.
  25. Ah, the “reasonable man”, that you for clearing up our delusions, we were so lost without you!

    The FACT IS, 9/11, JFK, Area 51, non of it matter, truth or lie, these are just canaries in the coal mine. We ALL know something ain’t right, we all know the US governemnt is out of control and if they did not sacrifice Americans at 9/11, they sure as hell did fighting the Iraq war.

    Pick your poison, the US government handed over $38,000,000,000.00 to a sovereign nation of Israel this week, where exactly in our constitution is it written that this is required?

    How about the build up of NATO around Russia, and the coups that keep happening in every nation standing against the Zionist Jew globalists, just coincidence?

    Whether the US governemnt or Israel conspired directly to cause 9/11 or their illegal outrageous ACTIONS caused others to lash out at US, it really makes little difference. Americans are on the short end of every stick, and while you may try and debunk these “conspiracy theories”, there are many many evil deeds perpetrated by our leaders that will never see the light of day that are even worse.

    Read More
  26. @Dwright
    A lot of straw man arguments here Fred, not saying I don't agree with many of your points but you could do better.
    Sure as hell doesn't refute everything.

    Planes hit the Pentagon and the Towers. Impossible for amateurs to place sufficient charges in the towers.

    What else do you need to know?

    Read More
  27. @E. Rekshun
    I once worked with an Obama-worshipping 9/11 Truther. While neither denying or supporting his conspiracy claims, my response to him when he got on his hobby horse was that, even though Obama wasn't President on 9/11/01, wouldn't at least one other high government official that WAS in on the 9/11 conspiracy have briefed Obama on the "facts." Of course. So, Obama is in on the conspiracy too! And that make Obama eeeevill, just like George W. Bush!

    Didn't Popular Mechanics thoroughly debunk the 9/11 Truthers a few years ago. Or is the entire staff of Popular Mechanics in on it too?

    It doesn’t matter what the facts are, the foil hat brigade doesn’t care. They have their view, and nothing will change it.

    PM has not been the only ones to debunk the truther myths. They have been debunked repeatedly.

    Read More
  28. @Anonymous Smith
    I'll let you guy's tear Fred to pieces...I don't seem to be able to muster they energy to verbally pistol-whip the deniers with the truth anymore. But, boy-oh-boy, back in the day, 10 yrs ago, when I still cared, I'd have them so stymied all they could do is blurt out "Nadafinga!" and storm out of the thread!

    I've learned that once a person believes in something - no matter how illogical or stupid it might be - it's nearly impossible to get them to "see the light." I think it's a genetic thing...you're able to see the truth or you're not. It's just that simple. Now, having said that lemme quickly add that it is possible to reorientate a persons cognitive processes, to reeducate them, if you will, and get them to see the "truth" being offered. But that takes a long time and a lot of effort. Much easier just to tell them to go fuck themselves, lol.

    This cognitive "stubbornness" is hard wired in our brains...it's a natural and necessary function of our subconscious minds. It is both genetic and epigenetic, and thank God for it! Can you imagine what this world would be like if everyone could just drop one belief in favor of another competing belief right there on the spot? This world would be in total chaos in a week or two.

    When the Communist Jews went into a country (after subverting it from within...just like they're doing in the US today with their "Social Justice Warrior" cultural shock troopers.) they didn't fuck around...they immediately rounded up the intelligentsia in each city, nation wide, and killed them as fast as they could. If you were "lucky" you would receive "cultural reeducation"...in which they would literally beat the "truth" into you!

    Anyhoo, I'll leave you to it...don't be too kind to ol' Fred here, this is, after all, a war we're involved in!

    Great post, and right on the money.

    I heard a phrase the other day that was used in describing how Jews have created a world to their liking in the West, “Gaslighting”. It basically means making someone doubt reality to the point they doubt their own sanity and take others reality for their own.

    Gaslighting is a movie from the 40′s and is truly a window in America and its psychopathic abusers.

    A certain segment of psychopathic Jews have always had money, taking advantage of religious dogma that prohibited Gentiles of lending money for profit, how convenient. With that money they have purchased the media and entertainment industries, and thanks to crooks like Reagan and Clinton, they were able to take over most US media through consolidation. Then the music industry, and certainly entertainment/Hollywood, Wall Street, and finally US politics. And all the while the American people ignorant of the threat or simply too naive to understand who wicked people can actually be, stood by and did nothing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    With that money they have purchased the media and entertainment industries, and thanks to crooks like Reagan and Clinton, they were able to take over most US media through consolidation. Then the music industry, and certainly entertainment/Hollywood, Wall Street, and finally US politics.
     
    Adjust your timeline a bit, TJM:


    from
    Capturing the German Eye: American Visual Propaganda in Occupied Germany by Cora Sol Goldstein

    During World War II, the U S government had also relied heavily on visual propaganda. In June 1942 the Roosevelt administration created the Office of War Information (OWI) to shape American public opinion and encourage prowar sentiments. The agency sought to explain the war to American civilians, to mobilize the home front, to increase morale, and to indoctrinate American soldiers .
    OWI believed that the easiest way to transmit propaganda effectively was through film, especially when spectators were unaware that they were being propagandized. Therefore, Hollywood was conscripted for the war effort.
    Under the guidance of the OWI, Hollywood produced feature films intended to educate, inspire, and entertain, and military training films to teach soldiers why they were fighting and how to fight.

    The relationship between the OWI and Hollywood amounted to a virtual merger between the state and the movie industry with the goal of shaping American public opinion.8
     
    At the time -- the late 1930s and 1940s -- Hollywood studios were run exclusively by Jews.
    Ronald Reagan got his start as an actor working as a war propagandist for Hollywood studios.
    , @Anonymous Smith
    I've seen the movie 'Gaslight' several times...it's a good ol' classic.

    The Jews have been forcibly expelled 119 times from 109 countries (not to mention the thousands of villages, towns, and cities that have given them the boot!)...we've known about their criminal activities for more than a thousand years, yet they endure, and thrive. How is that possible?

    The short answer is: Christianity. I believe the Jews invented Christianity in order to have a large and permanent Goyim entity to feed off of. But even if they didn't invent Christianity (which they did) they could, and have, infiltrated themselves into the Christian Church in large numbers in order to take control of the Church and guide it wherever they want it to go. It's super-simple to infiltrate into the Christian Church...all you have to do is say "Praise Jesus, the King of kings!" through out a few Hallelujah's and you're in! Most people don't know this, but, Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor of Spain, was a Crypto-Jew. A murderous psychopathic Crypto-Jew, as it turns out. He had no problem whatsoever infiltrating into the Catholic Church and rapidly rising to a strategic position of power, wherein he began a bloody campaign that forever stained the image of the Catholic Church...mission accomplished!

    I have nothing good to say about Christians...so let's just leave it at that.

    The Jews go to great lengths to protect the integrity of their religious infrastructure. It's virtually impossible for a Goy to infiltrate into any position of power in Judaism.
  29. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Many people have theorized that the Pentagon was hit by a missile because of the great difficulty and tight maneuvering required for a jumbo-jet to have hit it at ground level. After all, the hijackers only took limited numbers of lessons flying little propeller planes which are toys compared to jumbo-jets. There’s no overlap between the two so it would seem to indicate that the people actually flying those planes had much more extensive training elsewhere that we’ve not been told about. Therefore, just using this line of reasoning, which is not wild or far-fetched, there’s more to the story than the official government narrative. After all, why should anyone uncritically accept the government version particularly when members of the 9/11 commission itself have been dissatisfied? The event unleashed wars, curtailments of civil liberties, ushered in a security state and trillions of the public’s money has been diverted in furtherance of these various goals. Why let some outlandish crazies horn in and dominate the discussion when there are reasonable questions to be asked? Let’s not all become hypnotized true believers.

    Read More
  30. @E. Rekshun
    I once worked with an Obama-worshipping 9/11 Truther. While neither denying or supporting his conspiracy claims, my response to him when he got on his hobby horse was that, even though Obama wasn't President on 9/11/01, wouldn't at least one other high government official that WAS in on the 9/11 conspiracy have briefed Obama on the "facts." Of course. So, Obama is in on the conspiracy too! And that make Obama eeeevill, just like George W. Bush!

    Didn't Popular Mechanics thoroughly debunk the 9/11 Truthers a few years ago. Or is the entire staff of Popular Mechanics in on it too?

    I like “Popular Mechanics” but it is a neo-con run CIA propaganda outlet. Whenever our government wants to disprove critics about something technical, PM comes out with the needed story. It has performed this duty for years.

    Reviewing Mr. Reed’s evidence, it seems a retired friend of his heard a loud noise, glanced out his window, and saw a tail flash by which looked like that of an American Airlines aircraft tail. That’s it? Some have speculated that a drone was used that was painted with an American Airlines color scheme. So that may debunk Mr. Reed’s “hard” evidence, allowing him to consider reality.

    As the Saker recently wrote, most people refuse to even look at the numerous documentaries because the idea is too difficult for them to accept. The Denver PBS station did a documentary in 2012 that addressed this “cognitive dissonance’ issue while presenting hard evidence that specially made military nano-thermite (not just thermite) was used to knock down the buildings.

    This quickly became the most watched PBS video nationwide, with positive reader comments. It was predictable that PBS leaders quickly denounced it, who said it really wasn’t a PBS documentary. Some were asked if they had watched it, and they said no!

    http://www.pbs.org/ombudsman/2012/09/the_disaster_that_keeps_on_giving_1.html

    They wanted the local PBS station to remove it but said they would not demand it in the spirit of freedom of speech. It remained for a few months to become the most watched PBS show ever, and now, dead links:

    http://video.cpt12.org/video/2270078138 http://www.pbs.org/video/2270078138/

    but youtube still has it up. I highly recommend it.

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  31. Great spoof and exposé. But the dopes who believe in conspiracy theories never read these kinds of articles. Even if they did, it would make no difference.

    Read More
    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith

    Great spoof and exposé. But the dopes who believe in conspiracy theories never read these kinds of articles.
     
    I wonder if Ron Unz will get angry with Reed for troll-bombing the comment section. Or, maybe storage is free, 'cause comments on this are going to use a LOT.

    Either way, the world is chock-a-block full of conspiracy theorists, and they never tire of ... well, they never tire.
  32. Interesting that Fred comes out with this soon after Ron gave us this:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-the-cia-invented-conspiracy-theories/

    My point is not that Fred’s piece complements Ron’s. Just the opposite. It capitalizes on it and deflects suspicion away from 9/11. It ignores the more important point: It’s not so much the physical “how” of the event that matters, so much as the “why” and “who.”

    Regarding the towers collapsing, I’ve seen what fire can do to a steel structure:

    A tanker truck crashed on an intersate overpass near me. It’s load of fuel burned right there on top of the bridge. Guess what, the massive beams holding up the roadway sagged like wet noodles. The heat of the fire was enough to soften the metal.

    In the Trade Center towers, beams much thinner than those are all that suspended the floors from the outer skeleton to the inner core. It was an unusual design. with no strength present inside the inner space.

    A few floors sagged, like my local bridge. The laws of geometry therefore required those thin, planar structures to pull away from their moorings at the perimeter. They broke free. They fell onto the floors below, their mass and momentum more than enough to cause a chain reaction all the way down. It proceeded vertically, through the path of least resistance, because the structure shunted it straight down that way. It accelerated quickly, because the mass kept growing as collapsed floors accumulated.

    Those puffs of smoke on the way down came from the pulverized dust in the air — the air that was being shot out of the windows because it had nowhere else to go.

    Laymen don’t realize that the towers were basically hollow tubes.

    It doesn’t matter how they came down. What matters is who did it and/or allowed it to happen, and why. It was, after all, the Pearl Harbor the neocons and their friends wanted, to spark Americans into action.

    Read More
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    So you're telling us that the beams holding up WTC 1, 2 and 7 all sagged "like wet noodles," due to fire, are you?

    But perhaps you are wrong. Here is Dr.Leroy Hulsey, Chair of the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks, a structural engineer and a specialist in the forensic investigation of building collapses stating, after a year-long inquiry, that fire did not bring down World Trade Center building 7 on 9/11.

    But apparently you, Fred, and some others think that the issue can be resolved without reference to any of the experts including the Chair and other members of the 9/11 Commission, who have said, among other things:


    9/11 Co-Chair, Lee Hamilton: I don't believe for a minute we got everything right, ... the Commission was set up to fail, ... people should keep asking questions about 9/11, ... the 9/11 debate should continue, and ... the 9/11 Commission report was only "the first draft" of history.

    9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey: There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . . We didn't have access . . . .

    9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer: We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting.

    Former 9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission, stating: "It is a national scandal"; "This investigation is now compromised"; and "One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up".

    9/11 Commissioner John Lehman: We purposely put together a staff that had – in a way - conflicts of interest.

    The Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission (John Farmer): I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described .... The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years.... This is not spin. This is not true.
     

    If Ron Unz wishes his Review to be taken with any seriousness, he'd better do some editing, including the editing out of entire columns.

    And here again, for those who haven't seen it, the best short account of 9/11 conspiracy theories.

    , @Sam J.
    Buzz Mohawk is of course a "Spoofer". He says that the only structure is the outside. Well I have a picture that has the afternoon sun shining through the WTC and you can actually see what the structure is. There's a strong hefty core.

    http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/04images/911/wtccoreshilouette.jpg

    Here's more core pictures during construction

    http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/images/pagemaster/trident3.jpg

    An actual core column. Very strong.

    https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRREhtu_yOsBeT53Sh30JENNQil-oJbsaawgpioQlbuWvMJMX_ssw

    The idea that the outer columns were weak is more lies. The outer columns were designed to withstand 2,000% load before failing.

    "...[T]hese reports said that “live loads on these [perimeter] columns can be increased more than
    2000% before failure occurs” and that “one could cut away all of the first-story columns on one
    side of the building, and partway from the corners of the perpendicular sides, and the building
    could still withstand design live loads and a 100-mph wind force from any direction.”..."

    from Engineering News Record 1964 via this link, page 11

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160410065635/http://www.911myths.com/drg_nist_review_1_1.pdf

    You know the whole "Spoofer" story is all about how American engineers are complete idiots and can't even design a building to stand up to a few fires. No matter how big the fires were on the top there were none on the bottom and the bottom was designed to hold the top up in the first place. The "Spoofers" have no common sense at all.
    , @dahoit
    As heat rises,how the hell did it melt lower beams?Yes,the above floors would have possibly been heat affected.
    When 3 buildings collapse on their own footprints,in miraculous fashion,it certainly leads to non belief.
    And just who benefited from 9-11?Only one nation,Israel,and zionist landlords.
    , @thinLine
    Let's assume that everything is as you say regarding the softened steel buckling and the upper floors collapsing. It's pretty clear that the principal damage to any of the towers was not located at the horizontal center point of the respective floors. Consequently, there would be less damage (or at least delayed softening) across the four sides of the buildings.

    How, under these, IMO, undeniable conditions, could the top floors descend nearly vertically if there would be unequal opposing forces along the perimeters of the buildings? An almost perfect vertical fall would have been needed in order for there to be at least a remote chance that the impact of the upper floors would "pancake" the lower ones such that the buildings would fall on their footprint with minimal damage to surrounding structures (yes, I'm aware that there was damage to other buildings, but I think it can be classified as relatively minor by comparison).

    So this perfect collapse of one floor happened with all three buildings including WTC 7 which didn't get hit by a plane and, IIRC, didn't use the same "outer skin" approach as WTC 1 & 2? Do you not see the stretch needed to believe this?

    I'm not even going to point out the other glaring holes in the official story wrt the fallen towers, because what I've explained, by itself, should be enough to make you doubt things.
  33. A reader notes, correctly, that the missile pictured is a Harpoon. Being nearly blind, I asked my wife to to grab a photo from Google and, well, we screwed up. This proves I am part of the conspriacy as I am trying to protect the real Tomahawk.

    Read More
    • LOL: Andrei Martyanov
    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith

    A reader notes, correctly, that the missile pictured is a Harpoon.
     
    GIGANTIC GASP!!! A Harpoon? Bu...bu..bu...but those are launched from NAVAL platforms!!

    Don't you see??? This was all a plot by the ghost of Admiral Rickover!!! I KNEW it!!
    , @Jonathan Revusky
    Fred, I think you misjudged when you put out this garbage. You seem to think that there is some handful of "conspiracy theorists" out there and the majority of people still believe all the official bullshit. So you reason that, by writing such bullshit, you are currying favor with them.

    Well, granted there still are a lot of shit eaters who eat it all up with a spoon. Those people love this article, but I don't think you have sensed the the extent to which the tide has turned. Increasingly, the majority sees through this puerile bullshit about "tin foil hats" and so forth. People see how vacuous the arguments you're making are, how you are avoiding all the key issues in a very dishonest way.

    More and more people just see through the smarmy shit eating dishonesty of this kind of article.

    So, in short, Freddy boy, I think you fucked up. You have thoroughly discredited yourself. People will increasingly see you as a pathetic hack and a whore.
    , @Son of Dixie
    Ahh, Fred . Building 7 was not hit by anything.
  34. @Epaminondas
    Great spoof and exposé. But the dopes who believe in conspiracy theories never read these kinds of articles. Even if they did, it would make no difference.

    Great spoof and exposé. But the dopes who believe in conspiracy theories never read these kinds of articles.

    I wonder if Ron Unz will get angry with Reed for troll-bombing the comment section. Or, maybe storage is free, ’cause comments on this are going to use a LOT.

    Either way, the world is chock-a-block full of conspiracy theorists, and they never tire of … well, they never tire.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TJM
    In a world on fire with war and corruption, the coup in Brazil, Libya, Ukraine, and color revolutions everywhere, and you say "conspiracy theorists never tire", rather the warmongers and Zionist filth never stop acting in a manner that gives rise to such questioning.

    But your hasbara ilk have hit a brick wall with the internet. While the masses have been conditioned to buy into what ever the Zionist Jew media tells them, more and more people are taking the "red pill" and waking up.

    The very concept of "conspiracy theory" was contrived to dismiss those who question authority.

    Instead of taking each idea one by one, they just branded all comments or ideas out of the Zionist approved main stream media, as "crazy conspiracy theory".


    The only difference between conspiracy theory and fact, is time. Time for the truth to get out.
  35. @Fred Reed
    A reader notes, correctly, that the missile pictured is a Harpoon. Being nearly blind, I asked my wife to to grab a photo from Google and, well, we screwed up. This proves I am part of the conspriacy as I am trying to protect the real Tomahawk.

    A reader notes, correctly, that the missile pictured is a Harpoon.

    GIGANTIC GASP!!! A Harpoon? Bu…bu..bu…but those are launched from NAVAL platforms!!

    Don’t you see??? This was all a plot by the ghost of Admiral Rickover!!! I KNEW it!!

    Read More
  36. @Buzz Mohawk
    Interesting that Fred comes out with this soon after Ron gave us this:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-the-cia-invented-conspiracy-theories/

    My point is not that Fred's piece complements Ron's. Just the opposite. It capitalizes on it and deflects suspicion away from 9/11. It ignores the more important point: It's not so much the physical "how" of the event that matters, so much as the "why" and "who."

    Regarding the towers collapsing, I've seen what fire can do to a steel structure:

    A tanker truck crashed on an intersate overpass near me. It's load of fuel burned right there on top of the bridge. Guess what, the massive beams holding up the roadway sagged like wet noodles. The heat of the fire was enough to soften the metal.

    In the Trade Center towers, beams much thinner than those are all that suspended the floors from the outer skeleton to the inner core. It was an unusual design. with no strength present inside the inner space.

    A few floors sagged, like my local bridge. The laws of geometry therefore required those thin, planar structures to pull away from their moorings at the perimeter. They broke free. They fell onto the floors below, their mass and momentum more than enough to cause a chain reaction all the way down. It proceeded vertically, through the path of least resistance, because the structure shunted it straight down that way. It accelerated quickly, because the mass kept growing as collapsed floors accumulated.

    Those puffs of smoke on the way down came from the pulverized dust in the air -- the air that was being shot out of the windows because it had nowhere else to go.

    Laymen don't realize that the towers were basically hollow tubes.

    It doesn't matter how they came down. What matters is who did it and/or allowed it to happen, and why. It was, after all, the Pearl Harbor the neocons and their friends wanted, to spark Americans into action.

    So you’re telling us that the beams holding up WTC 1, 2 and 7 all sagged “like wet noodles,” due to fire, are you?

    But perhaps you are wrong. Here is Dr.Leroy Hulsey, Chair of the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks, a structural engineer and a specialist in the forensic investigation of building collapses stating, after a year-long inquiry, that fire did not bring down World Trade Center building 7 on 9/11.

    But apparently you, Fred, and some others think that the issue can be resolved without reference to any of the experts including the Chair and other members of the 9/11 Commission, who have said, among other things:

    9/11 Co-Chair, Lee Hamilton: I don’t believe for a minute we got everything right, … the Commission was set up to fail, … people should keep asking questions about 9/11, … the 9/11 debate should continue, and … the 9/11 Commission report was only “the first draft” of history.

    9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey: There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . . We didn’t have access . . . .

    9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer: We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting.

    Former 9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission, stating: “It is a national scandal”; “This investigation is now compromised”; and “One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up”.

    9/11 Commissioner John Lehman: We purposely put together a staff that had – in a way – conflicts of interest.

    The Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission (John Farmer): I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described …. The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years…. This is not spin. This is not true.

    If Ron Unz wishes his Review to be taken with any seriousness, he’d better do some editing, including the editing out of entire columns.

    And here again, for those who haven’t seen it, the best short account of 9/11 conspiracy theories.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    Again, it's not as important to know how they came down as much as who and why. Arguing over things like the one you are fogs the real issue -- and Ron's point is exactly that.

    This has even caused you to argue with me as if I've swallowed the official propaganda, which I haven't. I'm on your side, you see. The attack was a false flag, or a Pearl Harbor type of thing at least facilitated by those who wanted the US to do what it has done since.

    BTW I've known since middle school someone who is the head of another department at UofA in Fairbanks. He's a good guy and all that, but I've seen him be wrong in his field over the years like every other expert. Such persons are not omniscient, so your citing adds little.
  37. Last year, one of the regular commenters here, Bill Jones, wrote the following lovely comment. I saved it not only because it was funny but because it was extremely interesting:

    “The Official Version of 9/11 goes something like this…

    Directed by a beardy-guy from a cave in Afghanistan, nineteen hard-drinking, coke-snorting, devout Muslims enjoy lap dances before their mission to meet Allah…

    Using nothing more than craft knifes, they overpower cabin crew, passengers and pilots on four planes…

    And hangover or not, they manage to give the world’s most sophisticated air defense system the slip…

    Unphased by leaving their “How to Fly a Passenger Jet” guide in the car at the airport, they master the controls in no-time and score direct hits on two towers, causing THREE to collapse completely…

    Our masterminds even manage to overpower the odd law of physics or two… and the world watches in awe as steel-framed buildings fall symmetrically – through their own mass – at free-fall speed, for the first time in history.

    Despite all their dastardly cunning, they stupidly give their identity away by using explosion-proof passports, which survive the fireball undamaged and fall to the ground… only to be discovered by the incredible crime-fighting sleuths at the FBI…

    …Meanwhile down in Washington…

    Hani Hanjour, having previously flunked 2-man Cessna flying school, gets carried away with all the success of the day and suddenly finds incredible abilities behind the controls of a Boeing…
    Instead of flying straight down into the large roof area of the Pentagon, he decides to show off a little…
    Executing an incredible 270 degree downward spiral, he levels off to hit the low facade of the world’s most heavily defended building…
    …all without a single shot being fired…. or ruining the nicely mowed lawn… and all at a speed just too fast to capture on video…

    …Later, in the skies above Pennsylvania…

    So desperate to talk to loved ones before their death, some passengers use sheer willpower to connect mobile calls that otherwise would not be possible until several years later…

    And following a heroic attempt by some to retake control of Flight 93, it crashes into a Shankesville field leaving no trace of engines, fuselage or occupants… except for the standard issue Muslim terrorists bandana…

    …Further south in Florida…

    President Bush, our brave Commander-in-Chief continues to read “My Pet Goat” to a class full of primary school children… shrugging off the obvious possibility that his life could be in imminent danger…

    …In New York…

    World Trade Center leaseholder Larry Silverstein blesses his own foresight in insuring the buildings against terrorist attack only six weeks previously…

    While back in Washington, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz shake their heads in disbelief at their own luck in getting the ‘New Pearl Harbor’ catalyzing event they so desired to pursue their agenda of world domination…

    And finally, not to be disturbed too much by reports of their own deaths, at least seven of our nineteen suicide hijackers turn up alive and kicking in mainstream media reports…

    And if you don’t believe that, you’re a “conspiracy theorist”

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    • Replies: @Mr bob
    You may have understated just how bad of a pilot Hanjour was. He reportedly "could not fly at all" and performed poorly landing and manuavering a small cessna not long before 9/11. And we are to believe that he performed and incredible spiraling descending turn and skim perfectly along the ground, allegedly at max throttle and strike the five sided squirrel cage PERFECTLY?!?!! I can believe that the planes sunk the WTC towers. I cannot believe they brought down WTC7 or hit the Pentagon. I love Fred's work but I am not a crazy conspiracy nut in these beliefs.
  38. @E. Rekshun
    I once worked with an Obama-worshipping 9/11 Truther. While neither denying or supporting his conspiracy claims, my response to him when he got on his hobby horse was that, even though Obama wasn't President on 9/11/01, wouldn't at least one other high government official that WAS in on the 9/11 conspiracy have briefed Obama on the "facts." Of course. So, Obama is in on the conspiracy too! And that make Obama eeeevill, just like George W. Bush!

    Didn't Popular Mechanics thoroughly debunk the 9/11 Truthers a few years ago. Or is the entire staff of Popular Mechanics in on it too?

    Didn’t Popular Mechanics thoroughly debunk the 9/11 Truthers a few years ago.

    Oh! Well, never mind, then. If it was Popular Mechanics … let’s face it, skeptics, when Popular Mechanics debunks something, that’s about as debunked as debunked gets. No bunks left. Them bunks is pretty much nuked. Case closed. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along. Move along.

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  39. Fred; Nice try but you are wasting your time, 9/11 is a matter of faith. It is very similar to the Ptolemaic versus Newtonian models of the solar system. Both are detailed systems that describe what you see when you look up at the sky and observe the movement of the heavenly bodies.
    In the Ptolemaic system the earth is at the center of the solar system and the planets, moon and sun move around it. In order to explain planetary motion, including retrograde, the Ptolemaic astronomers built an incredibly elaborate model in which the planets are attached to crystal spheres that spin on the surface of other spinning crystal spheres attached to other spinning crystal spheres. By building this up to a sufficient level of complexity you have a model that predicted what you saw when you measured planetary motion with the instruments of that time.
    The Newtonian system had the earth orbiting the sun, and the planets moved in ellipses determined by the laws of gravitational mechanics.
    The Ptolemaists could never accept that theory for reasons of Faith. Because God made the universe and made humans in his image, the earth must be at the center of the universe and the planets cannot be moving in ellipses but in circular motions because circles are a perfect shape like God would use and ellipses are not.
    I have studied most of the literature including the works by the architects and engineers for 9/11 truth and the official explanations, and done my own calcualtions. The official and the 9/11 Truth explanations are both theories that successfully describe what you saw when you look at videos and photos of the 9/11 events. I go with the official version because it says you simply saw what happened, while the alternatives get into elaborate crystal spheres inside crystal spheres explanations of how workers building the WTC in 1971 secretly painted “nano-thermite” onto the steel beams so the buildings could be blown up when the orders came down from Tel Aviv.
    None of that is going to shake the faith of people who have seen how crooked the government is and wouldn’t believe it if the government said the sun is going to rise tomorrow. It is similar to the Kennedy assassination. I think Oswald did it, but I also understand you will never get most people to accept that because of the fact he was killed by Ruby and that made it look like a conspiracy. You can link 9/11 skeptics to photos of aircraft wreckage inside the Pentagon or at the Flight 93 crash site and they will tell you the photos are faked, or they simply won’t look at the links.
    Faith is Faith. You may as well save your breath and move on. I will operate on the theory the hijackers did it until the conspirators make their death bed confessions, or Mohamed Atta emerges from his French Riviera retirement palace and gives it all up.

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    • Replies: @edNels
    wow! what course at the jr. college did you take to get so smart on all that crap... Hey,, how about some paragraph breaks too?

    Dodo, and you end up talking about some Atta guy, who never was....

    Israel is lookiing to get the water, that's key! The water!
    , @Sam J.
    "...9/11 is a matter of faith..."

    Ahh...no it's not faith it's buildings falling as if the only support they had was "Air". It's about numerous witnesses and videos with loud bomb blast going off. It's about a huge number of evidence that says the gov. story is a lie.

    The "Spoofers" will never acknowledge this.
  40. @aletho
    Unusual Evacuations & Power-Downs before WTC 911 Demolition

    https://alethonews.wordpress.com/2010/08/29/unusual-evacuations-power-downs-before-wtc-911-demolition/

    More:

    Zero, an investigation into 9/11

    https://alethonews.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/zero-an-investigation-into-911/

    Ah, Fred

    The day after the Pentagon blew up

    Lame joke, since the only damage was to the wall. Still, it is difficult to imagine
    a newly trained pilot flying a jet so close to the ground (the winds reflect from it., so even harder to imagine).

    The flight 93 story is a fairy tale, it was clearly shot down by a US fighter jet.

    The tale of the rebellion of passengers is a lie.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    The flight 93 story is a fairy tale, it was clearly shot down by a US fighter jet.
     
    Nothing so important should be considered absolutely clear without careful consideration of all possibilities and all relevant evidence.

    We can be fairly certain that Flight 77 really did fly with real people on board. Passengers' names were published and my old school mate, the late Postman Patel, confirmed that one of the named passengers, a distant relative, was no longer at her place of work, the Georgetown University Hospital, and was presumed killed in the Crash of Flight 77.

    It is possible that Flight 77 was disposed of in some way other than flying it into the Pentagon, while the Pentagon was hit by a missile. But it is simpler to suppose that crew and passengers were knocked out with nerve gas while the plane was piloted remotely.

    Even simpler, I suppose, is to assume that 9/11 was Hani Hanjour's lucky day and the pilot who couldn't fly a single-engined Cessna 172 was inspired once at the controls of an airliner.

    But on the evidence available, I suggest that the public must leave open the question of what hit the Pentagon.

    There is, however, very good evidence now, that WTC7 did not collapse due to fire (see comment 39 above). Yet it was not hit by a plane. Moreover, it collapsed at free-fall speed for 2.25 seconds. So other than the use of pre-positioned explosives, what could account for its collapse?

    And if WTC7 was "pulled" (i.e., deliberately demolished) as Larry Silverstein the building's leasehold owner claimed, why not WTC 1 and 2?

    , @dahoit
    Almost like the MSM heat on Trump for calling a bomb a bomb(NYC).
    Another million or more votes for Trump.
    Landslide!
    How anyone could promote immigration by people who hate US,is an exercise in quisling Zionist divide and conquer.Our mortal enemy.
    I worked with a guy who worked previously for an airline.He said after the event they were all told that the planes tail was found a half mile from the fuselage.
    Shot down.
  41. Fred does a good job of demolishing most of the wackiest 9/11 conspiracy theories. But what about MY conspiracy theory — that the craziest theories have been secretly promulgated by the CIA to make all 9/11 truthers look like kooks?

    There is one thing he said I disagreed with, that journalists would have pursued the story if it existed. Yes, but if you know the editors will never approve it, and your career is over if you push it, why bother? Look what happened to the guy who broke the CIA/drug dealing story.

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  42. In terms of historical competence, Fred persists in cramming both feet into his mouth. With this one it seems a big toe has emerged from the other end….

    Examination of the Pentagon wall and debris field showed that the explosion was from inside, pushing the wall outward. Turbine engines are the single largest and heaviest component of jet aircraft. They were never found, extricated, examined, nor was evidence ever observed of their presence. The nature of the debris field also rules out the possibility of a missile explosion. No THEORY about any of these physical facts.

    The section of the Pentagon that was damaged also contained financial records which would have revealed where huge amounts of funds were being spent, but officially were unaccounted for.

    This information has been available for years, but it must be searched for. As for conspiracies–they have always existed. Revolutions are always begun with conspiracies and cabals. A primer is Billington’s Fire in the Minds of Men. The most classic is the fall of the Roman Empire. One of the most classic of maneuvers is to harm one’s own constituents and cast aspersion on one’s detractors as the means of diverting attention from one’s own guilt. The second Russian revolution. The Balfour agreement laying the groundwork for the creation of the State of Israel and the subsequent modern exodus of the “persecuted” Jews, Adolf himself being of Jewish descent. This ploy is as common as kids.

    Come ON Fred, gets some history reading in your life!! And pay attention to the scheming of your adolescent children.

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  43. In a world where Barak Obama wins the Nobel Peace Prize….

    Fred Reed clearly deserves a Pulitzer Prize for this fine piece of cerebral nuanced well researched journalism.

    America is doooooooomed.

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  44. @CanSpeccy
    So you're telling us that the beams holding up WTC 1, 2 and 7 all sagged "like wet noodles," due to fire, are you?

    But perhaps you are wrong. Here is Dr.Leroy Hulsey, Chair of the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks, a structural engineer and a specialist in the forensic investigation of building collapses stating, after a year-long inquiry, that fire did not bring down World Trade Center building 7 on 9/11.

    But apparently you, Fred, and some others think that the issue can be resolved without reference to any of the experts including the Chair and other members of the 9/11 Commission, who have said, among other things:


    9/11 Co-Chair, Lee Hamilton: I don't believe for a minute we got everything right, ... the Commission was set up to fail, ... people should keep asking questions about 9/11, ... the 9/11 debate should continue, and ... the 9/11 Commission report was only "the first draft" of history.

    9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey: There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . . We didn't have access . . . .

    9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer: We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting.

    Former 9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission, stating: "It is a national scandal"; "This investigation is now compromised"; and "One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up".

    9/11 Commissioner John Lehman: We purposely put together a staff that had – in a way - conflicts of interest.

    The Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission (John Farmer): I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described .... The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years.... This is not spin. This is not true.
     

    If Ron Unz wishes his Review to be taken with any seriousness, he'd better do some editing, including the editing out of entire columns.

    And here again, for those who haven't seen it, the best short account of 9/11 conspiracy theories.

    Again, it’s not as important to know how they came down as much as who and why. Arguing over things like the one you are fogs the real issue — and Ron’s point is exactly that.

    This has even caused you to argue with me as if I’ve swallowed the official propaganda, which I haven’t. I’m on your side, you see. The attack was a false flag, or a Pearl Harbor type of thing at least facilitated by those who wanted the US to do what it has done since.

    BTW I’ve known since middle school someone who is the head of another department at UofA in Fairbanks. He’s a good guy and all that, but I’ve seen him be wrong in his field over the years like every other expert. Such persons are not omniscient, so your citing adds little.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    Again, it’s not as important to know how they came down as much as who and why.
     
    Most forensic investigations begin with an examination of what happened and how. And the how may tell you who, or who not, and why or why not.

    For example, iron microspheres and particles of nanothermite in the dust at ground zero tells you that something happened quite independent of the alleged actions of 19 guys with box cutters on board the hi-jacked planes.


    This has even caused you to argue with me as if I’ve swallowed the official propaganda, which I haven’t.
     
    You may not have swallowed the official propaganda, but you are opening yourself to ridicule by applying sloppy thinking to a tricky forensic problem. That problem is to discover what happened despite the fact that a succession of US Administrations has refused to conduct a judicial inquiry or undertake a forensic investigation.

    The attack was a false flag, or a Pearl Harbor type of thing at least facilitated by those who wanted the US to do what it has done since.
     
    That's a widely held hypothesis, not an established fact. It's establishing the fact that requires careful analysis and verification. Offering what seems to you to be a bit of common sense, really doesn't cut it. What it does is expose those who question the official account of 9/11 to ridicule by the defenders of the official story.

    BTW I’ve known since middle school someone who is the head of another department at UofA in Fairbanks. He’s a good guy and all that, but I’ve seen him be wrong in his field over the years like every other expert. Such persons are not omniscient, so your citing adds little.
     
    So someone else at the same school is not so swift, therefore you dismiss the work of Leroy Hulsey without any knowledge of his team's work or therefore without any rational argument whatever?

    You must have the defenders of the official story laughing. In fact, if I were orchestrating an effort to keep the public confused, this is exactly the kind of argument I would deploy in public.

  45. @The Grate Deign
    The reason the 9/11 truthers are still in business is that the government has no credibility. The official accounts of the 9/11 events may be entirely factual, but huge numbers of Americans still would not believe them if the sources were inside the government.

    ” The official accounts of the 9/11 events may be entirely factual, but huge numbers of Americans still would not believe them if the sources were inside the government.”

    No, they cannot be factual. There are far too many self-contradictory statements in them.

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  46. @Che Guava
    Ah, Fred

    The day after the Pentagon blew up
     
    Lame joke, since the only damage was to the wall. Still, it is difficult to imagine
    a newly trained pilot flying a jet so close to the ground (the winds reflect from it., so even harder to imagine).

    The flight 93 story is a fairy tale, it was clearly shot down by a US fighter jet.

    The tale of the rebellion of passengers is a lie.

    The flight 93 story is a fairy tale, it was clearly shot down by a US fighter jet.

    Nothing so important should be considered absolutely clear without careful consideration of all possibilities and all relevant evidence.

    We can be fairly certain that Flight 77 really did fly with real people on board. Passengers’ names were published and my old school mate, the late Postman Patel, confirmed that one of the named passengers, a distant relative, was no longer at her place of work, the Georgetown University Hospital, and was presumed killed in the Crash of Flight 77.

    It is possible that Flight 77 was disposed of in some way other than flying it into the Pentagon, while the Pentagon was hit by a missile. But it is simpler to suppose that crew and passengers were knocked out with nerve gas while the plane was piloted remotely.

    Even simpler, I suppose, is to assume that 9/11 was Hani Hanjour’s lucky day and the pilot who couldn’t fly a single-engined Cessna 172 was inspired once at the controls of an airliner.

    But on the evidence available, I suggest that the public must leave open the question of what hit the Pentagon.

    There is, however, very good evidence now, that WTC7 did not collapse due to fire (see comment 39 above). Yet it was not hit by a plane. Moreover, it collapsed at free-fall speed for 2.25 seconds. So other than the use of pre-positioned explosives, what could account for its collapse?

    And if WTC7 was “pulled” (i.e., deliberately demolished) as Larry Silverstein the building’s leasehold owner claimed, why not WTC 1 and 2?

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    "There is, however, very good evidence now, that WTC7 did not collapse due to fire (see comment 39 above). Yet it was not hit by a plane. Moreover, it collapsed at free-fall speed for 2.25 seconds. So other than the use of pre-positioned explosives, what could account for its collapse?"
     
    Yeah, it actually collapsed in free fall for 2.25 seconds, but only after it spent the first 1.75 seconds of collapse accelerating from a resting position to free fall. After free fall, it then started to decelerate for the next 1.4 seconds as the falling structure impacted upon the lower structure.

    The key point here is that the building started out "at rest" and accelerated to a free fall stage, and that comports with how gravity works here on earth. Whether or not charges were used to take out the supporting structure or if the interior supporting structure simply failed cannot be determined from your observation that it was at some point in free fall. Even when you drop a building with charges, it does not immediately go into free fall.
    , @Che Guava
    You are correct. Building 7's collapse is very strange.

    There is so much else we are supposed to forget, the activities of the Israeli 'art students' beforehand, flying Saudi nationals out immediately after, much more.

    The advantageous stock market trading beforehand, I distinctly recall a statement that it was subject to investigation, but the investigation never happened.

    As you point out, the obscenely huge insurance payments to Silberstein (and Lowy).

    Cui bono?
  47. Thanks Fred. Sure, some of your logical flourishes are tongue in cheek, but the thesis is absolutely sound. There is simply no possible way that a conspiracy of this size and scope could ever be kept secret for longer than it takes to call the National Enquirer looking for a million dollar payday. In fact, the leaks would have come in the planning stages. I too have worked in journalism and politics. There is no such thing as a secret when more than two people know it. The conspiracy theories fly in the face of everything we know about how groups behave.

    15 years later, and we’re still discussing this. Remarkable. That reveals how deeply you Americans distrust your government. There’s good justification for that.

    But it also reveals just how little the conspiracy theory folks know – about other people and human nature. And that’s disturbing.

    Exactly how did a plane fly into the Pentagon? Don’t know, I’m not a pilot. What made the twin towers collapse like they did? Sheesh, couldn’t tell you, I know nothing of structural engineering. Why did number 7 collapse? No friggin’ clue. Agree that it looks odd. I’ll leave that head-scratcher to people with taller foreheads than mine.

    Did a cabal of military, business people, insurance companies, politicians, journalists, demolition experts, airlines, foreign governments, security workers, building managers, janitors, police, (on and on) work together to orchestrate a mass-murder of historic scale that remains a secret to this day? There is zero chance of that. Zero. Zero. Zero.

    Guys, move on.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    There is simply no possible way that a conspiracy of this size and scope could ever be kept secret for longer than it takes to call the National Enquirer looking for a million dollar payday.
     
    Oh, thanks for putting us straight.

    But you are serious?

    I mean, you're convinced of the absolute certainty of your airy, completely unsubstantiated opinion against that of every thoughtful investigator who has studied the actual available, you know, evidence?

    No, such vapid silliness is surely not possible.

    OK, I get it. Your kidding us. Ha ha. Yes, good joke.

    , @John Howard
    @ sturbain

    1) You tell us that conspiracies of this size can't exist because secrets can't be kept, yet how could you know that? If a secret was kept, you wouldn't know about it, right? How can you claim to see what remains unseen? Or, how can you claim that what is hidden from you cannot exist?

    2) Obviously there WAS a conspiracy by SOMEONE that caused 911. Are you claiming that 19 Arabs can keep secrets and do the job, but Americans can't keep secrets and it would take hundreds of them to do the same job?
  48. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Great spoof and exposé. But the dopes who believe in conspiracy theories never read these kinds of articles.
     
    I wonder if Ron Unz will get angry with Reed for troll-bombing the comment section. Or, maybe storage is free, 'cause comments on this are going to use a LOT.

    Either way, the world is chock-a-block full of conspiracy theorists, and they never tire of ... well, they never tire.

    In a world on fire with war and corruption, the coup in Brazil, Libya, Ukraine, and color revolutions everywhere, and you say “conspiracy theorists never tire”, rather the warmongers and Zionist filth never stop acting in a manner that gives rise to such questioning.

    But your hasbara ilk have hit a brick wall with the internet. While the masses have been conditioned to buy into what ever the Zionist Jew media tells them, more and more people are taking the “red pill” and waking up.

    The very concept of “conspiracy theory” was contrived to dismiss those who question authority.

    Instead of taking each idea one by one, they just branded all comments or ideas out of the Zionist approved main stream media, as “crazy conspiracy theory”.

    The only difference between conspiracy theory and fact, is time. Time for the truth to get out.

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    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith

    you say “conspiracy theorists never tire”, rather the warmongers and Zionist filth never stop acting in a manner that gives rise to such questioning.

    But your hasbara ilk have hit a brick wall with the internet.
     
    Oh, gee, there's one now. A conspiracy theorist accusing me of conspiracy.

    Grow up.
  49. It says a lot when the establishments creates a word to characterize an entire group of people. Naming things, putting them into boxes is the first step to controlling them. Conversely, confusing the issue, limiting and changing the names of things is also a tool.

    Take illegal aliens. The Zios, the corporations and the globalists love migration, for every reason you could imagine, but primarily it is about weakening a society. And most societies welcome some migration, there is always a need for limitations. So you have the Zionist globalists who want open borders and natives who want them closed, sadly the Zionists control the media, to whit they first brand anyone who does not want open borders are “racist” (name the group to be controlled). This of course is ludicrous, but the media repeats it again and again. Then you start limiting what you can call illegals (confuse and break down dialog), “people can’t be illegal”, BULL SHIT! Then they were illegal migrants, then undocumented immigrants, then undocumented workers…you catch the meaning.

    When you control the media you have the ability to frame each discussion, you can pick the craziest person to represent the sanest idea, or the most sane person to argue for the most insane idea.

    And on websites across the globe there are people who will argue regardless of the facts that you are wrong and a conspiracy theorist.

    If all they have is calling names, you know you have won. But we all must be diligent, because the agents of evil lie as easily as breath (John Jeremiah Smith), and they don’t have to prove a point, they just need to stop people from listening and believing you.

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  50. It looks like Ol’ Fred has finally succumbed to dementia. First he praises cops and now this.
    You used to be able to count on Fred researching a subject he is commenting on. He is obviously negligent here.
    Very pathetic and very sad. A giant in the land of wordsmiths has digressed to a babbling, mental midget.

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  51. @TJM
    Great post, and right on the money.

    I heard a phrase the other day that was used in describing how Jews have created a world to their liking in the West, "Gaslighting". It basically means making someone doubt reality to the point they doubt their own sanity and take others reality for their own.

    Gaslighting is a movie from the 40's and is truly a window in America and its psychopathic abusers.

    A certain segment of psychopathic Jews have always had money, taking advantage of religious dogma that prohibited Gentiles of lending money for profit, how convenient. With that money they have purchased the media and entertainment industries, and thanks to crooks like Reagan and Clinton, they were able to take over most US media through consolidation. Then the music industry, and certainly entertainment/Hollywood, Wall Street, and finally US politics. And all the while the American people ignorant of the threat or simply too naive to understand who wicked people can actually be, stood by and did nothing.

    With that money they have purchased the media and entertainment industries, and thanks to crooks like Reagan and Clinton, they were able to take over most US media through consolidation. Then the music industry, and certainly entertainment/Hollywood, Wall Street, and finally US politics.

    Adjust your timeline a bit, TJM:

    from
    Capturing the German Eye: American Visual Propaganda in Occupied Germany by Cora Sol Goldstein

    During World War II, the U S government had also relied heavily on visual propaganda. In June 1942 the Roosevelt administration created the Office of War Information (OWI) to shape American public opinion and encourage prowar sentiments. The agency sought to explain the war to American civilians, to mobilize the home front, to increase morale, and to indoctrinate American soldiers .
    OWI believed that the easiest way to transmit propaganda effectively was through film, especially when spectators were unaware that they were being propagandized. Therefore, Hollywood was conscripted for the war effort.
    Under the guidance of the OWI, Hollywood produced feature films intended to educate, inspire, and entertain, and military training films to teach soldiers why they were fighting and how to fight.

    The relationship between the OWI and Hollywood amounted to a virtual merger between the state and the movie industry with the goal of shaping American public opinion.8

    At the time — the late 1930s and 1940s — Hollywood studios were run exclusively by Jews.
    Ronald Reagan got his start as an actor working as a war propagandist for Hollywood studios.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    Ronald Regean did not get his start as an actor directing military training films.
    That is what he directed, mundane training films such as how to take apart, repait, clean and put back carburetors in various military vehicles

    I believe he wrote and directed those films not acted in them. He may have been filmed demonstrating something like how to arrange supplies, but one could not call that acting. The military training films used ordinary soldiers, not actors

    Regean was a well known actor, a movie star actually for a decade before he was drafted and the army assigned him to direct training films.

    FYI from about 1934 on, the FDR administration, the English government and Hollywood worked together making pro British historical films and other pro British films.. Typical films are the numerous movies of English pirate Errol Flynn bravely battling the evil Spanish navy

    Spain symbolized Germany . The brave 1500s English pirates of course symbolized brave and virtuous 1930s England and Churchill war mongering to crush Germany.

    But Regran was a movie star long before he was drafted and assigned to make training films
    , @Sam Shama
    Yes isn't it interesting?!

    The Propaganda ministry in Germany during the same period was run entirely by "Aryans", a race so much better at everything.

    On the Road to the Munich Conference of 1938


    Toward the end of their conference Chamberlain had extracted a promise from Hitler that he would take no military action until they had again conferred. In this period the Prime Minister had great confidence in the Fuehrer’s word, remarking privately a day or two later, ”In spite of the hardness and ruthlessness I thought I saw in his face, I got the impression that here was a man who could be relied upon when he had given his word.” [LOL]
    While the British leader was entertaining these comforting illusions Hitler went ahead with his military and political plans for the invasion of Czechoslovakia. Colonel Jodl, on behalf of OKW, worked out with the Propaganda Ministry what he described in his diary as ”joint preparations for refutation of our own violations of international law.” It was to be a rough war, at least on the part of the Germans, and Dr. Goebbels’ job was to justify Nazi excesses.

     

    Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich, Page 387.
  52. @Carlton Meyer
    I doubt Mr. Reed is a neo-con agent, but he is trying to be, perhaps because all his income comes from the US Govt. Surely he knows about basic security. The Pentagon back then had at least 100 security cameras all around. Local businesses had a hundred pointed at various angles.

    Where is the videotape of this airliner? Just one! Do some research, and all you find are stories about the FBI seizing videotapes from nearby businesses, never to be seen again.

    Also read about "ground effect".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_(aerodynamics)

    Aircraft with big wings compress air beneath those wings that provide lift so they can fly. As they fly lower, that air becomes more compressed as it hits the ground and forces the aircraft upward. Any aeronautical engineer familiar with large aircraft will tell you at that speed a large aircraft could not have flown that low, the " ground affect" would have bounced it back up higher. And there is a lack of burn marks from hot jet engine exhaust on the pristine Pentagon lawn.

    I will not bother to address disappeared aircraft parts and bodies. From my blog:

    Oct 3, 2013 - CNN Reports!

    You may have heard wild conspiracy theories that a commercial airliner did not hit the Pentagon on 9-11. Yes, it's true that the place hit was the only part of the Pentagon unoccupied that day as it was undergoing renovation. Yes, it's true that no large airplane parts, bodies, luggage, or seats were found. The small debris was immediately removed by hand from the scene before FAA accident investigators arrived. Yes, it's true that none of the dozens of security cameras in and around the Pentagon recorded an incoming airplane, although a fuzzy clip one second clip was eventually released. And yes, it's true that a CNN reporter on the scene reported that no airplane hit the Pentagon. Ignore all these facts, lest you suffer ridicule.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcWT2lQszEE

    Rest assured Mr. Reed, your government direct deposit checks remain secure with this article. Others who depend on Uncle Sam's checks are not so timid. For example, former Republican Senator Bob Graham is a crazy tin foil hatter. In a recent "60 Minutes" interview, he said:

    "I think it is implausible to believe that 19 people, most of whom didn't speak English, most of whom had never been in the United States before, many of whom didn't have a high school education-- could've carried out such a complicated task without some support from within the United States."

    www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-911-classified-report-steve-kroft/

    “Any aeronautical engineer familiar with large aircraft will tell you at that speed a large aircraft could not have flown that low, the ” ground affect” would have bounced it back up higher.”

    I’ll call BS here. Within one wingspan of the ground you will get a pronounced float effect called “ground effect“, so you just pitch the nose lower. Yes, you can fly any aircraft, even a big one, into the ground at a given point. You merely hold a fixed reference point on your target at a steady place on the windscreen and adjust as necessary. It’s so easy even a goatherd jihadi or a truther could do it.

    And for those who say you can’t fly a big aircraft so fast so low, you would be surprised how fast you can fly low when you don’t care or know about structural failure.

    Read More
    • Replies: @sturbain
    A voice of reason soon to be drowned out by a million condescending replies from folks who have no real knowledge of planes, but a million youtube links.
  53. @Rurik
    pathetic

    Possibility one: There were no airplanes.
     
    um, Fred.. no airplane hit building seven

    this beam did not cut itself

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Scq5WpGiD4w/TmWM8tosxfI/AAAAAAAACwg/rroBM3CIRg8/s400/thermate%2Bcut.jpg

    it has slag around the cut. That's what you get when you cut steel Fred

    it isn't that they don't want a Pulitzer, they just don't want to end up like Michael Hastings, who was likely chasing the Pulitzer you're talking about.

    as Fred makes clear, it's very easy to get journalists to toe the line when it comes to which side of the bread has the butter on it

    or more the point, invitations to the cocktail party circuit in DC where he likes to visit periodically

    some people sell out on the cheap

    there was a twenty story gash in the north face of building number 7 from one of the decimated twin towers.
    9/11 conspiracy theories are not even theories. they have no demonstrable proof, unlike, say, relativity theory. theories must be tested.
    they are hypotheses.

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    • Replies: @The Scalpel
    For the sake of argument, lets grant that "the 20 story gash" caused significant structural damage. The laws of physics dictate that any collapse of the building would be faster on the weakened portion of the building thus an assymetrical collapse. The collapse occurred symmettrically at free fall speed. This is well documented.

    So we have one of two choices. 1. The laws of physics were violated or 2. A group of intelligent insiders were able to rig the building to collapse and keep their activities secret.

    I respect Fred, but I disagree with his complete confidence that the buildings could not have been rigged to collapse, and the operations kept relatively secret. With plenty of time to prepare and some very intelligent demolition engineers, I don't see that as a huge obstacle. Overcoming the laws of physics. That is a huge obstacle.

    Fred's article does not address any of the significant evidence for demolition. I do not believe Fred has looked into the issue very deeply. In this case, I think he has fallen victime to the "big lie" and has suspended his usually strong sense of scepticism
    , @Rurik

    there was a twenty story gash in the north face of building number 7
     

    9/11 conspiracy theories are not even theories. they have no demonstrable proof, unlike
     
    this Lawrence, is demonstratabe proof :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ujWitEr-Ww

    but for people even too stupid to understand what their eyes are seeing, we have the advance knowledge of the collapse of building seven. That is irrefutable proof that they did it. Because they knew building seven was going to fall before it did, and the *ONLY* way they could have known that is if it had been wired for a controlled demolition. Duh

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOVnvFl5jZo

    Period

    end of story

    the only thing left to do is try to figure out if people like Fred are too stupid to see the obvious, or is it something far more troubling

    and yes, the USS Liberty incident (and the subsequent cover-up) makes a mockery of Fred's whole position


    “Hmmm, F16 take off with Hellfire, come back no Hellfire. Where go Hellfire? Pentagon blow up. Heap strange.”
     
    Hmmm, jets scrambled to assist USS Liberty under attack, jets come back right away. No assist! President Johnson betray sailors- twice! Heap strange"

    Running through all of this is that lots of people would be involved, yet none have come forward and blown the scam.
     
    that's right Fred. Just Like The USS Liberty. Capish?
    , @Sam J.
    "...there was a twenty story gash in the north face of building number 7 from one of the decimated twin towers..."

    Oh really? Here's a picture of the South side of building #7, same side you said had a twenty story gap in it, taken after the North and South tower had fallen. It was from NIST after they were sued under the FOIA.

    https://postimg.org/image/al3qcikq5/#

    No fire. No huge gap. You lie.

    I noticed they finally canceled my first link to the picture but unfortunately for the "Spoofers" I saved it.
  54. the official and msm story is obvious bull pucky..

    Now do we need to run through the weeds with the Sweeds?

    No, you gatsto know that the various assholes that had access… did the demolition plan… did put the stuff where it needed to be put… over some time interval…maybe months… and subterfuges such as spray on ”fire retardant” or other such spray on stuff…maybe to socalled keep the ”asbestos fixied and to improve that sort of a non issue type deal..

    I mean…There was a video of the Israeli art students who lived in building…and did you see the work they did? They made a porch out of one of the windows…. way up theah! didya see dat?

    Hell the bastahds had free reign through them buildings for lot a time… coulda planted… but lets be clear… that was one damedwell figured out demo… one ofthe best..

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    • Replies: @dahoit
    Remember the 93 attack when they almost took out a column which would have collapsed the WTC on to neighboring buildings?
    Of course they could have retrofitted explosives for the next possible attack.
  55. there is nothing wrong with skepticism.

    there is also nothing wrong with questioning the official narrative. I have read too many false flags to not have doubts.

    conspiracy theory it self is a false flag, poison the well concept. it is now the best weapon for any type of cover ups or spillage of any inconvenient truth.

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  56. @schmenz
    Last year, one of the regular commenters here, Bill Jones, wrote the following lovely comment. I saved it not only because it was funny but because it was extremely interesting:

    "The Official Version of 9/11 goes something like this…

    Directed by a beardy-guy from a cave in Afghanistan, nineteen hard-drinking, coke-snorting, devout Muslims enjoy lap dances before their mission to meet Allah…

    Using nothing more than craft knifes, they overpower cabin crew, passengers and pilots on four planes…

    And hangover or not, they manage to give the world’s most sophisticated air defense system the slip…

    Unphased by leaving their “How to Fly a Passenger Jet” guide in the car at the airport, they master the controls in no-time and score direct hits on two towers, causing THREE to collapse completely…

    Our masterminds even manage to overpower the odd law of physics or two… and the world watches in awe as steel-framed buildings fall symmetrically – through their own mass – at free-fall speed, for the first time in history.

    Despite all their dastardly cunning, they stupidly give their identity away by using explosion-proof passports, which survive the fireball undamaged and fall to the ground… only to be discovered by the incredible crime-fighting sleuths at the FBI…

    …Meanwhile down in Washington…

    Hani Hanjour, having previously flunked 2-man Cessna flying school, gets carried away with all the success of the day and suddenly finds incredible abilities behind the controls of a Boeing…
    Instead of flying straight down into the large roof area of the Pentagon, he decides to show off a little…
    Executing an incredible 270 degree downward spiral, he levels off to hit the low facade of the world’s most heavily defended building…
    …all without a single shot being fired…. or ruining the nicely mowed lawn… and all at a speed just too fast to capture on video…

    …Later, in the skies above Pennsylvania…

    So desperate to talk to loved ones before their death, some passengers use sheer willpower to connect mobile calls that otherwise would not be possible until several years later…

    And following a heroic attempt by some to retake control of Flight 93, it crashes into a Shankesville field leaving no trace of engines, fuselage or occupants… except for the standard issue Muslim terrorists bandana…

    …Further south in Florida…

    President Bush, our brave Commander-in-Chief continues to read “My Pet Goat” to a class full of primary school children… shrugging off the obvious possibility that his life could be in imminent danger…

    …In New York…

    World Trade Center leaseholder Larry Silverstein blesses his own foresight in insuring the buildings against terrorist attack only six weeks previously…

    While back in Washington, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolfowitz shake their heads in disbelief at their own luck in getting the ‘New Pearl Harbor’ catalyzing event they so desired to pursue their agenda of world domination…

    And finally, not to be disturbed too much by reports of their own deaths, at least seven of our nineteen suicide hijackers turn up alive and kicking in mainstream media reports…

    And if you don’t believe that, you’re a “conspiracy theorist”

    You may have understated just how bad of a pilot Hanjour was. He reportedly “could not fly at all” and performed poorly landing and manuavering a small cessna not long before 9/11. And we are to believe that he performed and incredible spiraling descending turn and skim perfectly along the ground, allegedly at max throttle and strike the five sided squirrel cage PERFECTLY?!?!! I can believe that the planes sunk the WTC towers. I cannot believe they brought down WTC7 or hit the Pentagon. I love Fred’s work but I am not a crazy conspiracy nut in these beliefs.

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  57. I said it on another thread … If there are so many Truthers who think their government is so evil that it will mass murder three thousand of its own people in one go, then instead of sitting around and playing keyboard kommandos, carping about the conspiracy and calling for yet another “independent” investigation (to what end?) that will be led by, manipulated or stonewalled by said same government, why don’t you get off your butts and organize a mass (peaceful) march on DC to demand regime change, because you are never going to get it trading cutesy stories on the internet. Do it in springtime and you will also catch the cherry blossoms and good weather!

    Read More
    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith

    march on DC to demand regime change, because you are never going to get it trading cutesy stories on the internet. Do it in springtime and you will also catch the cherry blossoms and good weather!
     
    Ah, springtime! One of the good parts of "The Producers" was the "Springtime for Hitler" musical number. So inspiring!
    , @landlubber

    Truthers who think their government is so evil that it will mass murder three thousand of its own people
     
    You dumb ape, even if you believe the official 9/11 story, the gov't did in fact send over 3000 American soldiers to their deaths in Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11.
  58. @Buzz Mohawk
    Again, it's not as important to know how they came down as much as who and why. Arguing over things like the one you are fogs the real issue -- and Ron's point is exactly that.

    This has even caused you to argue with me as if I've swallowed the official propaganda, which I haven't. I'm on your side, you see. The attack was a false flag, or a Pearl Harbor type of thing at least facilitated by those who wanted the US to do what it has done since.

    BTW I've known since middle school someone who is the head of another department at UofA in Fairbanks. He's a good guy and all that, but I've seen him be wrong in his field over the years like every other expert. Such persons are not omniscient, so your citing adds little.

    Again, it’s not as important to know how they came down as much as who and why.

    Most forensic investigations begin with an examination of what happened and how. And the how may tell you who, or who not, and why or why not.

    For example, iron microspheres and particles of nanothermite in the dust at ground zero tells you that something happened quite independent of the alleged actions of 19 guys with box cutters on board the hi-jacked planes.

    This has even caused you to argue with me as if I’ve swallowed the official propaganda, which I haven’t.

    You may not have swallowed the official propaganda, but you are opening yourself to ridicule by applying sloppy thinking to a tricky forensic problem. That problem is to discover what happened despite the fact that a succession of US Administrations has refused to conduct a judicial inquiry or undertake a forensic investigation.

    The attack was a false flag, or a Pearl Harbor type of thing at least facilitated by those who wanted the US to do what it has done since.

    That’s a widely held hypothesis, not an established fact. It’s establishing the fact that requires careful analysis and verification. Offering what seems to you to be a bit of common sense, really doesn’t cut it. What it does is expose those who question the official account of 9/11 to ridicule by the defenders of the official story.

    BTW I’ve known since middle school someone who is the head of another department at UofA in Fairbanks. He’s a good guy and all that, but I’ve seen him be wrong in his field over the years like every other expert. Such persons are not omniscient, so your citing adds little.

    So someone else at the same school is not so swift, therefore you dismiss the work of Leroy Hulsey without any knowledge of his team’s work or therefore without any rational argument whatever?

    You must have the defenders of the official story laughing. In fact, if I were orchestrating an effort to keep the public confused, this is exactly the kind of argument I would deploy in public.

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    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk

    In fact, if I were orchestrating an effort to keep the public confused, this is exactly the kind of argument I would deploy in public.
     
    Or, is yours?

    Listen, you have written a very good response to me. (And my anecdote about my old buddy the professor in Alaska is indeed pretty pathetic, but I just had to mention it. The point being "experts" are often wrong and at odds with each other.)

    It simply isn't necessary to have demolition, thermite, and all the access and complication that implies. It's by now a cliche, but hey, Occam's Razor.

    Big jets loaded with fuel crashed into the buildings. Fires burned. Steel definitely got soft and sagged...The buildings came down. These things I know, and they are enough. You are the one opening this up to ridicule by requiring all the improbable, impossible to keep secret, multi-fold conspiratorial acts by teams of minions to make your Rube Goldberg scheme work.

    Hey, I also believe Oswald acted alone, so call me a moron. Who he was and why he did it is the real question. BTW Americans really did land on the Moon too.
  59. Fred, this had me laughing out loud. The guy in the cubicle next to mine probably thinks that I’m looking at “midget porn.” I especially loved all the “But Fred” interjections.

    Here’s my tinfoil hat theory: Islamic Sith-Lords armed with red-bladed light-sabers cut the main support beams in the Twin Towers and Building Seven, all the while shouting “Aloha Snack-bar” or whatever it is that they shout when Kanye West says something stupid. I can’t explain the Pentagon. Gas-main explosion, maybe. Hey, it could happen.

    But seriously, call me stupid, naïve, a sheeple or whatever but I believe the “mainstream” version of events.

    Keep’em coming.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    But seriously, call me stupid, naïve, a sheeple or whatever but I believe the “mainstream” version of events.
     
    Ha! Another joker. Or is it that Cass Sunstein's agents of cognitive infiltration are having a field day?
  60. @E. Rekshun
    I once worked with an Obama-worshipping 9/11 Truther. While neither denying or supporting his conspiracy claims, my response to him when he got on his hobby horse was that, even though Obama wasn't President on 9/11/01, wouldn't at least one other high government official that WAS in on the 9/11 conspiracy have briefed Obama on the "facts." Of course. So, Obama is in on the conspiracy too! And that make Obama eeeevill, just like George W. Bush!

    Didn't Popular Mechanics thoroughly debunk the 9/11 Truthers a few years ago. Or is the entire staff of Popular Mechanics in on it too?

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  61. @E. Rekshun
    I once worked with an Obama-worshipping 9/11 Truther. While neither denying or supporting his conspiracy claims, my response to him when he got on his hobby horse was that, even though Obama wasn't President on 9/11/01, wouldn't at least one other high government official that WAS in on the 9/11 conspiracy have briefed Obama on the "facts." Of course. So, Obama is in on the conspiracy too! And that make Obama eeeevill, just like George W. Bush!

    Didn't Popular Mechanics thoroughly debunk the 9/11 Truthers a few years ago. Or is the entire staff of Popular Mechanics in on it too?

    *Allegory*
    “One of the best-known examples of allegory, Plato’s Allegory of the Cave, forms a part of his larger work The Republic. In this allegory, Plato describes a group of people who have lived chained in a cave all of their lives, facing a blank wall (514a–b). The people watch shadows projected on the wall by things passing in front of a fire behind them and begin to ascribe forms to these shadows, using language to identify their world (514c–515a). According to the allegory, the shadows are as close as the prisoners get to viewing reality, until one of them finds his way into the outside world where he sees the actual objects that produced the shadows. He tries to tell the people in the cave of his discovery, but they do not believe him and vehemently resist his efforts to free them so they can see for themselves (516e–518a). This allegory is, on a basic level, about a philosopher who upon finding greater knowledge outside the cave of human understanding, seeks to share it as is his duty, and the foolishness of those who would ignore him because they think themselves educated enough.[2]“

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    • Replies: @anonymous
    A good retort, but Dumbest Hasbara Troll on the Internet is being paid by Zionists to project false shadows on the blank wall.
  62. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    In the following we will ignore the more abundantly silly theories, such as that there were no Jews in the Towers on the day of the attacks.

    Why am I not surprised you picked this “abundantly silly” theory, instead of the less abundantly silly fact (or possibility) that there were Israel-connected special forces near the towers?

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  63. @sturbain
    Thanks Fred. Sure, some of your logical flourishes are tongue in cheek, but the thesis is absolutely sound. There is simply no possible way that a conspiracy of this size and scope could ever be kept secret for longer than it takes to call the National Enquirer looking for a million dollar payday. In fact, the leaks would have come in the planning stages. I too have worked in journalism and politics. There is no such thing as a secret when more than two people know it. The conspiracy theories fly in the face of everything we know about how groups behave.

    15 years later, and we're still discussing this. Remarkable. That reveals how deeply you Americans distrust your government. There's good justification for that.

    But it also reveals just how little the conspiracy theory folks know - about other people and human nature. And that's disturbing.

    Exactly how did a plane fly into the Pentagon? Don't know, I'm not a pilot. What made the twin towers collapse like they did? Sheesh, couldn't tell you, I know nothing of structural engineering. Why did number 7 collapse? No friggin' clue. Agree that it looks odd. I'll leave that head-scratcher to people with taller foreheads than mine.

    Did a cabal of military, business people, insurance companies, politicians, journalists, demolition experts, airlines, foreign governments, security workers, building managers, janitors, police, (on and on) work together to orchestrate a mass-murder of historic scale that remains a secret to this day? There is zero chance of that. Zero. Zero. Zero.

    Guys, move on.

    There is simply no possible way that a conspiracy of this size and scope could ever be kept secret for longer than it takes to call the National Enquirer looking for a million dollar payday.

    Oh, thanks for putting us straight.

    But you are serious?

    I mean, you’re convinced of the absolute certainty of your airy, completely unsubstantiated opinion against that of every thoughtful investigator who has studied the actual available, you know, evidence?

    No, such vapid silliness is surely not possible.

    OK, I get it. Your kidding us. Ha ha. Yes, good joke.

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    • Replies: @sturbain
    Yes, I'm quite serious. I wanted to end my post with "cue the condescension", but thought that would have been impolite.

    Here is the problem in a nutshell. The events leading up to 9/11 were myriad in their number and relationships to each other. There were undoubtedly breakdowns of all sort - in terms of military intelligence, immigration, engineering, security screening, reporting, journalism, etc), that contributed to 9/11. In addition, many individual events that day were unprecedented. Taken together absolutely unprecedented. Could elements of 9/11 be considered suspicious? Certainly. Did someone get bribed to look the other way at an immigration form? Maybe. Did FBI or CIA or whoever get viable intelligence that an attack was going to take place, but they forgot it, misfiled it, were on a coffee break, didn't understand the language? Could very well be, (I'll believe in incompetence over conspiracy any day of the week). Could official reports have been scrubbed to cover up incompetence? Better believe it. Organizations do that all the time. Are there individual experts out there who can find troubling inconsistencies? Yes, because of the unprecedented nature of this event, one should expect lots. Is the way Building 7 fell weird? I'll grant you that, if there is one piece of this that stands out to me as inexplicable, it's building 7.

    An unprecedented event of this scale and scope will create a thousand head-scratchers. Taken together, one might say "AHA, it must be a conspiracy." But it's not. It's the cumulative effect of so many yet to be explained things, expressed ad nauseam and repeated in slomo video in online echo chambers that makes these things seem like a grand coordinated event by someone/thing with enormous resources, reach and ability - i.e. a government.

    But, again, could a cabal of military, business people, insurance companies, politicians, journalists, demolition experts, airlines, foreign governments, security workers, building managers, janitors, police, (on and on) work together to orchestrate a mass-murder of historic scale that remains a secret to this day? With not a sticky note of a paper trail? No secretly recorded meetings? No Snowden defecting to tell the truth? Not patriots willing to come forward to admit they were paid a vast sum of money, or had their families threatened? I've worked in large groups on confidential things for decades. THERE IS ALWAYS A LEAK. It is human nature to want to be the person who exposes other's wrong-doing. In a conspiracy of this scale there would be more leaks than you could count. Together, they would have blown the cover on a coordinated operation within days or weeks of the event. Guys, really, move on. Fred is right.

    Taki over at the other site said recently, "A thing is not worth doing unless it is worth doing well, but a thing that is done well that is not worth doing is something very bad indeed—far worse, in fact, than a thing worth doing that is done badly. Among other things, it bespeaks a waste of ability,". The incredible, incalculable efforts of thousands of people, some of whom are very smart indeed, to prove a conspiracy that is has no historical precedent, is outside of human nature, and laughable in terms of organizational complexity, is a profound waste of ability.
  64. @Jeff77450
    Fred, this had me laughing out loud. The guy in the cubicle next to mine probably thinks that I'm looking at "midget porn." I especially loved all the "But Fred" interjections.

    Here's my tinfoil hat theory: Islamic Sith-Lords armed with red-bladed light-sabers cut the main support beams in the Twin Towers and Building Seven, all the while shouting "Aloha Snack-bar" or whatever it is that they shout when Kanye West says something stupid. I can't explain the Pentagon. Gas-main explosion, maybe. Hey, it could happen.

    But seriously, call me stupid, naïve, a sheeple or whatever but I believe the "mainstream" version of events.

    Keep'em coming.

    But seriously, call me stupid, naïve, a sheeple or whatever but I believe the “mainstream” version of events.

    Ha! Another joker. Or is it that Cass Sunstein’s agents of cognitive infiltration are having a field day?

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    I don't have all the facts, so he most I will cop to is that the officisl story is plausible. The more the Truthers make me look into various aspect, like how the towers were supposed to fall in some direction other than straight down, however, the more reasonable the official story actually seems.
  65. @TJM
    In a world on fire with war and corruption, the coup in Brazil, Libya, Ukraine, and color revolutions everywhere, and you say "conspiracy theorists never tire", rather the warmongers and Zionist filth never stop acting in a manner that gives rise to such questioning.

    But your hasbara ilk have hit a brick wall with the internet. While the masses have been conditioned to buy into what ever the Zionist Jew media tells them, more and more people are taking the "red pill" and waking up.

    The very concept of "conspiracy theory" was contrived to dismiss those who question authority.

    Instead of taking each idea one by one, they just branded all comments or ideas out of the Zionist approved main stream media, as "crazy conspiracy theory".


    The only difference between conspiracy theory and fact, is time. Time for the truth to get out.

    you say “conspiracy theorists never tire”, rather the warmongers and Zionist filth never stop acting in a manner that gives rise to such questioning.

    But your hasbara ilk have hit a brick wall with the internet.

    Oh, gee, there’s one now. A conspiracy theorist accusing me of conspiracy.

    Grow up.

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  66. @The Alarmist
    I said it on another thread ... If there are so many Truthers who think their government is so evil that it will mass murder three thousand of its own people in one go, then instead of sitting around and playing keyboard kommandos, carping about the conspiracy and calling for yet another "independent" investigation (to what end?) that will be led by, manipulated or stonewalled by said same government, why don't you get off your butts and organize a mass (peaceful) march on DC to demand regime change, because you are never going to get it trading cutesy stories on the internet. Do it in springtime and you will also catch the cherry blossoms and good weather!

    march on DC to demand regime change, because you are never going to get it trading cutesy stories on the internet. Do it in springtime and you will also catch the cherry blossoms and good weather!

    Ah, springtime! One of the good parts of “The Producers” was the “Springtime for Hitler” musical number. So inspiring!

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  67. @TJM
    Great post, and right on the money.

    I heard a phrase the other day that was used in describing how Jews have created a world to their liking in the West, "Gaslighting". It basically means making someone doubt reality to the point they doubt their own sanity and take others reality for their own.

    Gaslighting is a movie from the 40's and is truly a window in America and its psychopathic abusers.

    A certain segment of psychopathic Jews have always had money, taking advantage of religious dogma that prohibited Gentiles of lending money for profit, how convenient. With that money they have purchased the media and entertainment industries, and thanks to crooks like Reagan and Clinton, they were able to take over most US media through consolidation. Then the music industry, and certainly entertainment/Hollywood, Wall Street, and finally US politics. And all the while the American people ignorant of the threat or simply too naive to understand who wicked people can actually be, stood by and did nothing.

    I’ve seen the movie ‘Gaslight’ several times…it’s a good ol’ classic.

    The Jews have been forcibly expelled 119 times from 109 countries (not to mention the thousands of villages, towns, and cities that have given them the boot!)…we’ve known about their criminal activities for more than a thousand years, yet they endure, and thrive. How is that possible?

    The short answer is: Christianity. I believe the Jews invented Christianity in order to have a large and permanent Goyim entity to feed off of. But even if they didn’t invent Christianity (which they did) they could, and have, infiltrated themselves into the Christian Church in large numbers in order to take control of the Church and guide it wherever they want it to go. It’s super-simple to infiltrate into the Christian Church…all you have to do is say “Praise Jesus, the King of kings!” through out a few Hallelujah’s and you’re in! Most people don’t know this, but, Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor of Spain, was a Crypto-Jew. A murderous psychopathic Crypto-Jew, as it turns out. He had no problem whatsoever infiltrating into the Catholic Church and rapidly rising to a strategic position of power, wherein he began a bloody campaign that forever stained the image of the Catholic Church…mission accomplished!

    I have nothing good to say about Christians…so let’s just leave it at that.

    The Jews go to great lengths to protect the integrity of their religious infrastructure. It’s virtually impossible for a Goy to infiltrate into any position of power in Judaism.

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    • Replies: @utu
    "wherein he began a bloody campaign that forever stained the image of the Catholic Church…mission accomplished!" - No, he did not stain it. He was doing his job very well. Only in English Protestant anti-Catholic propaganda he is vilified. He prosecuted (not persecuted) former Jews, i.e., Conversos because he had reason to believe that conversions of some of them were performed not in a good faith. If he was a Conversos himself probably he knew what phenomenon he was really dealing with. The Holly Inquisition had no jurisdiction over Jews or other non-Christians. Conversos were Catholic thus under jurisdiction of Inquisition and if they secretly practiced Judaism they were guilty of heresy. Jewish attack against Inquisition is based on assumption that Conversos were genuine, that no crypto Judaism was practiced. This line of reasoning was promoted by research of Benjamin Netanyahu's father. Prior to him the Jewish historiography insisted that Jews were persecuted by Inquisition but this accusation was dropped because it was not true.
    , @John Jeremiah Smith

    The Jews go to great lengths to protect the integrity of their religious infrastructure. It’s virtually impossible for a Goy to infiltrate into any position of power in Judaism.
     
    True, but irrelevant. Jewish power, wealth, and corruption, as the enormous, insidious structure that it is today, has no religious component per se. An identification that is nominally "religious" by definition, sure. Actual religion? No.
  68. @The Alarmist

    "Any aeronautical engineer familiar with large aircraft will tell you at that speed a large aircraft could not have flown that low, the ” ground affect” would have bounced it back up higher."
     
    I'll call BS here. Within one wingspan of the ground you will get a pronounced float effect called "ground effect", so you just pitch the nose lower. Yes, you can fly any aircraft, even a big one, into the ground at a given point. You merely hold a fixed reference point on your target at a steady place on the windscreen and adjust as necessary. It's so easy even a goatherd jihadi or a truther could do it.

    And for those who say you can't fly a big aircraft so fast so low, you would be surprised how fast you can fly low when you don't care or know about structural failure.

    A voice of reason soon to be drowned out by a million condescending replies from folks who have no real knowledge of planes, but a million youtube links.

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    Sometimes you just have to shout into the wind ....
  69. @dearieme
    The daughter of a friend witnessed the second aircraft striking the second tower. She ran for her life.

    If the two towers were indeed demolished by the aircraft strikes, and I'm sure they were, then fretting about the Pentagon or Building 7 is odd; a theory that says that the major bit of 9/11 happened but that the minor bits were faked seems pretty silly to me.


    The only conspiracy theory that has any appeal to me is one of my own (though no doubt I'm the millionth person to have thought of it): that the hijackers supposed themselves to be acting for UBL but had themselves been hijacked and were in truth acting for someone else. For example, maybe they were acting for the security service of a Middle Eastern power: Saudi Arabia, say, or Iran. Or for the Pope, or Queen Elizabeth, or the KGB, or the Freemasons, or Lord Rothschild, or the Deuxieme Bureau, or for Fidel Castro. Or even for Slick Willie and Hellary.

    If I had to guess, I'd put my money on the Clintons.

    the official and msm story is obvious bull pucky..

    Now do we need to run through the weeds with the Sweeds?

    No, you gatsto know that the various assholes that had access… did the demolition plan… did put the stuff where it needed to be put… over some time interval…maybe months… and subterfuges such as spray on ”fire retardant” or other such spray on stuff…maybe to socalled keep the ”asbestos fixied and to improve that sort of a non issue type deal..

    I mean…There was a video of the Israeli art students who lived in building…and did you see the work they did? They made a porch out of one of the windows…. way up theah! didya see dat?

    Hell the bastahds had free reign through them buildings for lot a time… coulda planted… but lets be clear… that was one damedwell figured out demo… one ofthe best..

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  70. @Ace
    Planes hit the Pentagon and the Towers. Impossible for amateurs to place sufficient charges in the towers.

    What else do you need to know?

    Building 7?

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    You nd Ace are confusing me. I would have thought your short response woud just have been

    "Amateurs"?

    As to WTC 7 i don't know why it's a problem. A fire burns all day and eventually the effect on structural steel that much more intensive fires had in buildings 1 and 2 occurs.
  71. Deary me what a dummy you are, I mean.. you don’t got no smarts for the phyisical reality stuff.

    The guys who do this kinda thing know how to do this kinda thing… The’re not in no hurry… time isof the essence…theywill take their time… plant the charges.. and My thinking is that the charges, of different types…. you have the thermite charges that cut steel colluns, and maybe some other types of charges to deal with the exostructure etc. but…this is today.. that was today then… meaning.. there was remote control… not only for planes, but remote, WIRELESS control by computor of course, of the demo.

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  72. Come on guys! Whatever happened to the Kennedy conspiracy. Let’s get back to the “mother of all conspiracies” to assess the possibility of a Government-directed conspiracy. Clearly Lee Harvey Oswald assassinated Kennedy with “magic bullets” with difficult shots from the Texas School Book Depository. Everything else is down the memory hole. Why is this still the official narrative when it is patently false?

    Evidently, the CIA had three narratives going at the same time. The plan was to lean on whichever narrative appeared to gain currency. One was that Oswald was a lone killer; one was that the CIA did it; the last was that the Soviets did it. Then, we discover years later that LBJ brow beat the members of the Warren Commission with the argument that the Soviets did do it, and that if they reached that conclusion it would start WWII … so they better get in line and conclude that Oswald did it regardless of the evidence. They got in line.

    So, what a relief: “Oswald did it” and hence the true believers at the time saved humanity from a nuclear holocaust. Note that no sane, well-read person still believes that Oswald was a lone gunman … but that is still the official narrative in spite of the fact that the House Select Committee on Assassinations concluding in 1979 that “on the basis of the evidence available to it, … Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy.” I guess that gets flushed down the memory hole, too.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_Select_Committee_on_Assassinations

    Bottom line: Government conspiracies exist and, yes, they can involve thousands of people.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous Smith
    I read my very first 'conspiracy' book in 1976. It was a book about the murders of JFK, RFK, and MLK, entitled "The Assassinations: Dallas and Beyond". Great book...probably still relevant today.

    Kennedy was attempting to expose a "monolithic and ruthless conspiracy" in his famous 1961 'Secret Society' speech.
  73. @Alfa158
    Fred; Nice try but you are wasting your time, 9/11 is a matter of faith. It is very similar to the Ptolemaic versus Newtonian models of the solar system. Both are detailed systems that describe what you see when you look up at the sky and observe the movement of the heavenly bodies.
    In the Ptolemaic system the earth is at the center of the solar system and the planets, moon and sun move around it. In order to explain planetary motion, including retrograde, the Ptolemaic astronomers built an incredibly elaborate model in which the planets are attached to crystal spheres that spin on the surface of other spinning crystal spheres attached to other spinning crystal spheres. By building this up to a sufficient level of complexity you have a model that predicted what you saw when you measured planetary motion with the instruments of that time.
    The Newtonian system had the earth orbiting the sun, and the planets moved in ellipses determined by the laws of gravitational mechanics.
    The Ptolemaists could never accept that theory for reasons of Faith. Because God made the universe and made humans in his image, the earth must be at the center of the universe and the planets cannot be moving in ellipses but in circular motions because circles are a perfect shape like God would use and ellipses are not.
    I have studied most of the literature including the works by the architects and engineers for 9/11 truth and the official explanations, and done my own calcualtions. The official and the 9/11 Truth explanations are both theories that successfully describe what you saw when you look at videos and photos of the 9/11 events. I go with the official version because it says you simply saw what happened, while the alternatives get into elaborate crystal spheres inside crystal spheres explanations of how workers building the WTC in 1971 secretly painted "nano-thermite" onto the steel beams so the buildings could be blown up when the orders came down from Tel Aviv.
    None of that is going to shake the faith of people who have seen how crooked the government is and wouldn't believe it if the government said the sun is going to rise tomorrow. It is similar to the Kennedy assassination. I think Oswald did it, but I also understand you will never get most people to accept that because of the fact he was killed by Ruby and that made it look like a conspiracy. You can link 9/11 skeptics to photos of aircraft wreckage inside the Pentagon or at the Flight 93 crash site and they will tell you the photos are faked, or they simply won't look at the links.
    Faith is Faith. You may as well save your breath and move on. I will operate on the theory the hijackers did it until the conspirators make their death bed confessions, or Mohamed Atta emerges from his French Riviera retirement palace and gives it all up.

    wow! what course at the jr. college did you take to get so smart on all that crap… Hey,, how about some paragraph breaks too?

    Dodo, and you end up talking about some Atta guy, who never was….

    Israel is lookiing to get the water, that’s key! The water!

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  74. Fred Reed tries, cavalierly, to dismiss established facts and legitimate questions through humor. But actually he’s not very funny, and the facts and questions remain.

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  75. @The Grate Deign
    Building 7?

    You nd Ace are confusing me. I would have thought your short response woud just have been

    “Amateurs”?

    As to WTC 7 i don’t know why it’s a problem. A fire burns all day and eventually the effect on structural steel that much more intensive fires had in buildings 1 and 2 occurs.

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    • Replies: @The Grate Deign
    I may be operating under a mistaken fact set, but my understanding was that no planes hit Building 7, and there was no fire. Is that mistaken?
    , @The Grate Deign
    Indeed I was mistaken. Building 7 burned according to this article.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2056088/Footage-kills-conspiracy-theories-Rare-footage-shows-WTC-7-consumed-fire.html
  76. @CanSpeccy

    There is simply no possible way that a conspiracy of this size and scope could ever be kept secret for longer than it takes to call the National Enquirer looking for a million dollar payday.
     
    Oh, thanks for putting us straight.

    But you are serious?

    I mean, you're convinced of the absolute certainty of your airy, completely unsubstantiated opinion against that of every thoughtful investigator who has studied the actual available, you know, evidence?

    No, such vapid silliness is surely not possible.

    OK, I get it. Your kidding us. Ha ha. Yes, good joke.

    Yes, I’m quite serious. I wanted to end my post with “cue the condescension”, but thought that would have been impolite.

    Here is the problem in a nutshell. The events leading up to 9/11 were myriad in their number and relationships to each other. There were undoubtedly breakdowns of all sort – in terms of military intelligence, immigration, engineering, security screening, reporting, journalism, etc), that contributed to 9/11. In addition, many individual events that day were unprecedented. Taken together absolutely unprecedented. Could elements of 9/11 be considered suspicious? Certainly. Did someone get bribed to look the other way at an immigration form? Maybe. Did FBI or CIA or whoever get viable intelligence that an attack was going to take place, but they forgot it, misfiled it, were on a coffee break, didn’t understand the language? Could very well be, (I’ll believe in incompetence over conspiracy any day of the week). Could official reports have been scrubbed to cover up incompetence? Better believe it. Organizations do that all the time. Are there individual experts out there who can find troubling inconsistencies? Yes, because of the unprecedented nature of this event, one should expect lots. Is the way Building 7 fell weird? I’ll grant you that, if there is one piece of this that stands out to me as inexplicable, it’s building 7.

    An unprecedented event of this scale and scope will create a thousand head-scratchers. Taken together, one might say “AHA, it must be a conspiracy.” But it’s not. It’s the cumulative effect of so many yet to be explained things, expressed ad nauseam and repeated in slomo video in online echo chambers that makes these things seem like a grand coordinated event by someone/thing with enormous resources, reach and ability – i.e. a government.

    But, again, could a cabal of military, business people, insurance companies, politicians, journalists, demolition experts, airlines, foreign governments, security workers, building managers, janitors, police, (on and on) work together to orchestrate a mass-murder of historic scale that remains a secret to this day? With not a sticky note of a paper trail? No secretly recorded meetings? No Snowden defecting to tell the truth? Not patriots willing to come forward to admit they were paid a vast sum of money, or had their families threatened? I’ve worked in large groups on confidential things for decades. THERE IS ALWAYS A LEAK. It is human nature to want to be the person who exposes other’s wrong-doing. In a conspiracy of this scale there would be more leaks than you could count. Together, they would have blown the cover on a coordinated operation within days or weeks of the event. Guys, really, move on. Fred is right.

    Taki over at the other site said recently, “A thing is not worth doing unless it is worth doing well, but a thing that is done well that is not worth doing is something very bad indeed—far worse, in fact, than a thing worth doing that is done badly. Among other things, it bespeaks a waste of ability,”. The incredible, incalculable efforts of thousands of people, some of whom are very smart indeed, to prove a conspiracy that is has no historical precedent, is outside of human nature, and laughable in terms of organizational complexity, is a profound waste of ability.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    An unprecedented event of this scale and scope will create a thousand head-scratchers.
     
    You mean:

    Like why the US Government failed to instigate a forensic investigation of the crime.

    Like, why the US Government failed to order a judicial inquiry into the crime.

    Like, why no one at the Pentagon was demoted or fired for NORAD's total failure to protect New York and Washington DC, though they had the planes to do and well rehearsed routine for doing it (Or did they Air Force take down the plane that was supposed to have been crashed by the passengers at Shanksville?)

    As for


    THERE IS ALWAYS A LEAK.
     
    I guess that's shouted in all caps so we understand what your saying. It's about as compelling logically as saying that high-rise steel frame buildings that collapse due to fire (none ever had prior to 9/11) ALWAYS DESCEND AT OR NEAR FREE-FALL SPEED. In caps on not, it's bollocks.

    Anyhow, there were leaks, plenty of them. For example, about the Bush Administration trashing tons of FBI data on the terrorist threats; about Bush's anger at being warned by a CIA briefer of the risk of an attack; about how the "hijackers" were issued visas to enter the US at the order of the State Department, and contrary to the judgment of the visa office staff in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, etc., etc.

    As for historical precedent, what's that to do with the question of what happened. We're not living in history and weren't on 9/11. We are and were then in the age of the high tech soft tyranny that involves, among other things, all kinds of half-educated idiots and paid trolls running cover for state crimes against democracy.

    Just another example of an ignoramus flicking off a complex issue on the basis of flip all.

  77. @Anonymous Smith
    I've seen the movie 'Gaslight' several times...it's a good ol' classic.

    The Jews have been forcibly expelled 119 times from 109 countries (not to mention the thousands of villages, towns, and cities that have given them the boot!)...we've known about their criminal activities for more than a thousand years, yet they endure, and thrive. How is that possible?

    The short answer is: Christianity. I believe the Jews invented Christianity in order to have a large and permanent Goyim entity to feed off of. But even if they didn't invent Christianity (which they did) they could, and have, infiltrated themselves into the Christian Church in large numbers in order to take control of the Church and guide it wherever they want it to go. It's super-simple to infiltrate into the Christian Church...all you have to do is say "Praise Jesus, the King of kings!" through out a few Hallelujah's and you're in! Most people don't know this, but, Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor of Spain, was a Crypto-Jew. A murderous psychopathic Crypto-Jew, as it turns out. He had no problem whatsoever infiltrating into the Catholic Church and rapidly rising to a strategic position of power, wherein he began a bloody campaign that forever stained the image of the Catholic Church...mission accomplished!

    I have nothing good to say about Christians...so let's just leave it at that.

    The Jews go to great lengths to protect the integrity of their religious infrastructure. It's virtually impossible for a Goy to infiltrate into any position of power in Judaism.

    “wherein he began a bloody campaign that forever stained the image of the Catholic Church…mission accomplished!” – No, he did not stain it. He was doing his job very well. Only in English Protestant anti-Catholic propaganda he is vilified. He prosecuted (not persecuted) former Jews, i.e., Conversos because he had reason to believe that conversions of some of them were performed not in a good faith. If he was a Conversos himself probably he knew what phenomenon he was really dealing with. The Holly Inquisition had no jurisdiction over Jews or other non-Christians. Conversos were Catholic thus under jurisdiction of Inquisition and if they secretly practiced Judaism they were guilty of heresy. Jewish attack against Inquisition is based on assumption that Conversos were genuine, that no crypto Judaism was practiced. This line of reasoning was promoted by research of Benjamin Netanyahu’s father. Prior to him the Jewish historiography insisted that Jews were persecuted by Inquisition but this accusation was dropped because it was not true.

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  78. I liked and respected Fred. I often enjoyed his articles and will continue to read him but with the hatched job he did writing this garbage my respect for him went down. But I excuse him because I know that human spirit is weak and often cannot withstand some pressures.

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    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    I liked and respected Fred.
     
    Yeah, me too, basically. I was reading fredoneverything for years.

    I often enjoyed his articles
     

    Me too. But note the past tense!

    and will continue to read him
     
    Not me. No point wasting my time reading this lying shit eater.

    But I excuse him because I know that human spirit is weak and often cannot withstand some pressures.
     

    Well, you may be a more understanding person than I. I don't excuse him for this.

    Well, maybe we could forgive him. But he'd have to ask... well, BEG for forgiveness, and then... maaybe. But since he hasn't done that, to my way of thinking, it's completely out of the question.

  79. @Lawrence Fitton
    there was a twenty story gash in the north face of building number 7 from one of the decimated twin towers.
    9/11 conspiracy theories are not even theories. they have no demonstrable proof, unlike, say, relativity theory. theories must be tested.
    they are hypotheses.

    For the sake of argument, lets grant that “the 20 story gash” caused significant structural damage. The laws of physics dictate that any collapse of the building would be faster on the weakened portion of the building thus an assymetrical collapse. The collapse occurred symmettrically at free fall speed. This is well documented.

    So we have one of two choices. 1. The laws of physics were violated or 2. A group of intelligent insiders were able to rig the building to collapse and keep their activities secret.

    I respect Fred, but I disagree with his complete confidence that the buildings could not have been rigged to collapse, and the operations kept relatively secret. With plenty of time to prepare and some very intelligent demolition engineers, I don’t see that as a huge obstacle. Overcoming the laws of physics. That is a huge obstacle.

    Fred’s article does not address any of the significant evidence for demolition. I do not believe Fred has looked into the issue very deeply. In this case, I think he has fallen victime to the “big lie” and has suspended his usually strong sense of scepticism

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  80. @sturbain
    A voice of reason soon to be drowned out by a million condescending replies from folks who have no real knowledge of planes, but a million youtube links.

    Sometimes you just have to shout into the wind ….

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  81. @Charles Curtis
    Yeah. I don't know much about any of this, but I do think it's rather odd that these terrorists - who made so few other missteps that day - flew that plane into the back of the building, when the neo- classical facade on the front of the place basically made for a bullseye on Rumsfeld's and all the big brass's offices. Why fly into the other side where nobody was?

    150 or so peons counts as nobody, the highest ranked casualty was what, an 0-6? They could have taken out many hundreds more, people of real clout - by hitting the facade.

    Why didn't they? Bad - piss poor - planning? Hmm. Maybe.

    Other thing, if they want to shut up conspiracy theorists they can show us the surveillance videos. There have to be dozens that clearly show the plane - this is the bloody Pentagon, not a corner store. Corner stores are usually covered by more than one camera. The Pentagon has to have many dozens. The FBI is said to have scooped up all the private ones, and now refuses to release them, despite freedom of information act requests.

    Sorry, Fred. Doesn't wash, really. I'm not saying that there was a government conspiracy. I am saying that what happened was very strange, and that they could shut down all theorizing by showing us the tapes.

    That would be a sweet victory for the government if they released all the 9-11 footage that they are hiding. Also, building 7

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  82. @CanSpeccy

    But seriously, call me stupid, naïve, a sheeple or whatever but I believe the “mainstream” version of events.
     
    Ha! Another joker. Or is it that Cass Sunstein's agents of cognitive infiltration are having a field day?

    I don’t have all the facts, so he most I will cop to is that the officisl story is plausible. The more the Truthers make me look into various aspect, like how the towers were supposed to fall in some direction other than straight down, however, the more reasonable the official story actually seems.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    The more the Truthers make me look into various aspect, like how the towers were supposed to fall in some direction other than straight down
     
    LOL

    A nice piece of mis-direction. If by Truthers, you mean intelligent people with a background in math, physics, engineering who have studied the evidence, then what they would have you look at (assuming they cared where someone so incapable of understanding the basic situation were to look) is not "how the towers were supposed to fall in some direction other than straight down", but how the towers were not supposed to fall at all.

    I realize it is utterly futile arguing with those who know nothing about the subject, care not to inform themselves of anything about the subject, and who yet wish to pontificate about the subject, but here are some basic realities you might try to assimilate, ruminate upon and use as a basis for revising your position of comfortable complacency.

    First, until 9/11, 2001, no steel frame highrise building anywhere in the world had collapsed due to fire, which might make a thoughtful person wonder if fire was perhaps not, as NIST proclaimed, the cause of the Towers collapsing.

    Second, for a highrise building to fall in its own footprint, it is necessary that all supporting columns, walls, beams, whatever give way simultaneously. Otherwise, the collapse will not be symmetrical. But it is impossible that fires would cause all supporting structures to give way simultaneously, even if fires in the three towers that collapsed on 9/11 were hot enough — which they were not — to cause failure in the support buildings' support columns.

    Third, not only did Building 7 fall in its own footprint at free-fall speed for 2.2 seconds, i.e., over a height equal to eight stories, indicating instantaneous, which is to say explosive, removal of all support columns, but its collapse was announced by in advance by the BBC, and furthermore, was described as having been "pulled" by the building's leasehold owner, Larry Silverstein, "pulled" being a term applied by building demolition specialists to the taking down of a building with explosives.

    But who's to say, ignorance is not bliss.
  83. @utu
    I liked and respected Fred. I often enjoyed his articles and will continue to read him but with the hatched job he did writing this garbage my respect for him went down. But I excuse him because I know that human spirit is weak and often cannot withstand some pressures.

    I liked and respected Fred.

    Yeah, me too, basically. I was reading fredoneverything for years.

    I often enjoyed his articles

    Me too. But note the past tense!

    and will continue to read him

    Not me. No point wasting my time reading this lying shit eater.

    But I excuse him because I know that human spirit is weak and often cannot withstand some pressures.

    Well, you may be a more understanding person than I. I don’t excuse him for this.

    Well, maybe we could forgive him. But he’d have to ask… well, BEG for forgiveness, and then… maaybe. But since he hasn’t done that, to my way of thinking, it’s completely out of the question.

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    • Replies: @utu
    I excuse him but not giving him respect back.

    Do you think there something behind Fred's hatched job and Ron's somewhat closing his open mind as we witnessed yesterday in his comments on prominent individuals?
  84. @Lawrence Fitton
    there was a twenty story gash in the north face of building number 7 from one of the decimated twin towers.
    9/11 conspiracy theories are not even theories. they have no demonstrable proof, unlike, say, relativity theory. theories must be tested.
    they are hypotheses.

    there was a twenty story gash in the north face of building number 7

    9/11 conspiracy theories are not even theories. they have no demonstrable proof, unlike

    this Lawrence, is demonstratabe proof :

    but for people even too stupid to understand what their eyes are seeing, we have the advance knowledge of the collapse of building seven. That is irrefutable proof that they did it. Because they knew building seven was going to fall before it did, and the *ONLY* way they could have known that is if it had been wired for a controlled demolition. Duh

    Period

    end of story

    the only thing left to do is try to figure out if people like Fred are too stupid to see the obvious, or is it something far more troubling

    and yes, the USS Liberty incident (and the subsequent cover-up) makes a mockery of Fred’s whole position

    “Hmmm, F16 take off with Hellfire, come back no Hellfire. Where go Hellfire? Pentagon blow up. Heap strange.”

    Hmmm, jets scrambled to assist USS Liberty under attack, jets come back right away. No assist! President Johnson betray sailors- twice! Heap strange”

    Running through all of this is that lots of people would be involved, yet none have come forward and blown the scam.

    that’s right Fred. Just Like The USS Liberty. Capish?

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    • Replies: @Rurik
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Capish
  85. @Rurik

    there was a twenty story gash in the north face of building number 7
     

    9/11 conspiracy theories are not even theories. they have no demonstrable proof, unlike
     
    this Lawrence, is demonstratabe proof :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ujWitEr-Ww

    but for people even too stupid to understand what their eyes are seeing, we have the advance knowledge of the collapse of building seven. That is irrefutable proof that they did it. Because they knew building seven was going to fall before it did, and the *ONLY* way they could have known that is if it had been wired for a controlled demolition. Duh

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOVnvFl5jZo

    Period

    end of story

    the only thing left to do is try to figure out if people like Fred are too stupid to see the obvious, or is it something far more troubling

    and yes, the USS Liberty incident (and the subsequent cover-up) makes a mockery of Fred's whole position


    “Hmmm, F16 take off with Hellfire, come back no Hellfire. Where go Hellfire? Pentagon blow up. Heap strange.”
     
    Hmmm, jets scrambled to assist USS Liberty under attack, jets come back right away. No assist! President Johnson betray sailors- twice! Heap strange"

    Running through all of this is that lots of people would be involved, yet none have come forward and blown the scam.
     
    that's right Fred. Just Like The USS Liberty. Capish?
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  86. one last thing I should say

    on the day of 911, I was too much in shock to consider that the buildings were brought down by controlled demolition, even tho I remember thinking the whole thing was very strange

    then eventually I came to see it all for what it was; a false flag in order to get America to destroy several countries on Israel’s behalf. (is what it is)

    but the point I want to make is that since then, most of the people I’ve communicated with about this event haven’t given it much thought. They’re too busy with their lives, and that’s understandable.

    So that leaves the people who have given it some thought- and of the ones who still ‘believe’ the official story, I’ve found to be in several categories, but mainly the ones who’re sincere, but hopelessly duped. And then the ones who know it was a lie and an inside job, but don’t want that knowledge getting out there – perhaps because of their jobs or their sympathy to the Republican party or their sympathy for the idea of the American government as eternally ‘good’ or their sympathy for Zionism or their sympathy for “the Jews”. Or a combination of all of the above.

    Reading Fred’s egregious article, I confess I have no idea where on the spectrum Fred lies.

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    • Replies: @The Scalpel
    To address the idea that no one has spilled the beans. There are several categories of bean spillers. The inner circle of those involved likely consisted of only a few people. This was a highly compartmentalized operation as most highly sensitive covert operations are. The penalty for an inner circle member spilling the beans is "suicide" or "accidental" death. There may be some examples of that.

    The rest of potential bean spillers at different levels only knew their little piece of the story. There have been many people who have repoted suspicious activity regarding the events of 911. These people can easily be marginalized as lying or being mistaken because they can only fill in a small part of the picture. These people are deemed unimportant by the mainstream (like Fred?).

    So the fact that all of the beans have not been spilled is a testament to a well run, highly compartmentalized security and intelligence operation. I do not believe that is impossible, even for the US government.
    , @John Jeremiah Smith

    then eventually I came to see it all for what it was; a false flag in order to get America to destroy several countries on Israel’s behalf. (is what it is)
     
    Precisely.

    Cui bono? Who stood to gain? Israel, foremost. Secondly, George W. Bush and his coterie of neocons.

    Who wanted to do the deed? Take your pick of any crew of whack-job Islamic radicals. Bin Laden is as good a choice as any other -- he had the profile and the funding.

    Who knew about it? Israeli intelligence, obviously. CIA, maybe (the CIA "intelligence" people I met in South America were not what one would term "intelligent"). Maybe Israel helped out the hijackers a bit by misdirecting US "intelligence". Israel despises America for being led by a gang of pussified namby-pambies capable of doing nothing but kissing Israeli butt and taking Israeli bribes.
    , @Jonathan Revusky

    Reading Fred’s egregious article, I confess I have no idea where on the spectrum Fred lies.
     
    I don't think there is really any generous interpretation of this.

    In any case, you know, even if I were wrong, and Freddy boy really is stupid enough to believe all this shit and thus, is acting in good faith -- who cares really? In a war, most of the people who die or get hurt are not themselves guilty of anything.

    If Freddy boy wants to go to rhetorical war, then he gets what he has coming. And if you go into battle unarmed -- I mean in this case unarmed with any actual facts or arguments -- then there is a certain inevitable result.

    What I really want to emphasize to you and others is there is absolutely no point in replying to this smarmy garbage from Freddy boy in any sort of measured polite way. You see, when they start all this stuff, like "you're crazy, you're a conspiracy theorist", "tin foil hats nya nya" it's this whole campaign to tar people who ask legitimate questions and who do real research into these questions as crazy. It's "don't listen to those people, they're conspiracy theorists, that's not respectable blah".

    NO, the answer to these shit eaters like Freddy boy here has to be along the lines of "Dude, you're a shit eater."

    It's nasty to call somebody a shit eater because it's disgusting and you're calling somebody a worm or a maggot. I know it's not nice. But I have thought about it and I think it is the only proper counter-framing. Maybe not that term exactly necessarily, but something pretty nasty is quite warranted.

    You see, I am convinced that it is a losing strategy to try to respond to this kind of crap in a reasoned, polite, respectful manner. There has to be a tit-for-tat counter-framing. And once you have your counter-framing, you have to just keep hammering it relentlessly. That's what this whole CIA/mockingbird inspired "conspiracy theorist" meme is about. They just keep hammering it. So I say we just keep hammering the shit eater meme.

    You see, on the other side of the debate, you have this very powerful propaganda machine, using all the techniques at their disposal to plant the idea in the public's mind that asking questions about certain things is not respectable... oh, God forbid that somebody should think you are "conspiracy theorist" blah blah. Tin foil hats blah blah.

    Like, we need to turn the tables and say: NO, what is not respectable is to be a SHIT EATER. A shit eater is somebody who believes any absurd story because that's what they told him on the TV. They throw the bullshit in your general direction and you go there and hungrily eat it up.

    THAT is what is not respectable, being a shit eater! And we really ought to push that meme. Another way to look at it is in the B.F. Skinner positive/negative reinforcement framework. They say "You're a conspiracy theorist nya nya" and we just say "You're a shit eater." I mean, the "You're a conspiracy theorist nya nya" is these people's main rhetorical weapon. If you can neutralize that, they're basically disarmed, so....

  87. Ron, why on earth do you allow this crap to be published. Surely a little discernment is in order.

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  88. @Fred Reed
    A reader notes, correctly, that the missile pictured is a Harpoon. Being nearly blind, I asked my wife to to grab a photo from Google and, well, we screwed up. This proves I am part of the conspriacy as I am trying to protect the real Tomahawk.

    Fred, I think you misjudged when you put out this garbage. You seem to think that there is some handful of “conspiracy theorists” out there and the majority of people still believe all the official bullshit. So you reason that, by writing such bullshit, you are currying favor with them.

    Well, granted there still are a lot of shit eaters who eat it all up with a spoon. Those people love this article, but I don’t think you have sensed the the extent to which the tide has turned. Increasingly, the majority sees through this puerile bullshit about “tin foil hats” and so forth. People see how vacuous the arguments you’re making are, how you are avoiding all the key issues in a very dishonest way.

    More and more people just see through the smarmy shit eating dishonesty of this kind of article.

    So, in short, Freddy boy, I think you fucked up. You have thoroughly discredited yourself. People will increasingly see you as a pathetic hack and a whore.

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  89. @TheJester
    Come on guys! Whatever happened to the Kennedy conspiracy. Let's get back to the "mother of all conspiracies" to assess the possibility of a Government-directed conspiracy. Clearly Lee Harvey Oswald assassinated Kennedy with "magic bullets" with difficult shots from the Texas School Book Depository. Everything else is down the memory hole. Why is this still the official narrative when it is patently false?

    Evidently, the CIA had three narratives going at the same time. The plan was to lean on whichever narrative appeared to gain currency. One was that Oswald was a lone killer; one was that the CIA did it; the last was that the Soviets did it. Then, we discover years later that LBJ brow beat the members of the Warren Commission with the argument that the Soviets did do it, and that if they reached that conclusion it would start WWII ... so they better get in line and conclude that Oswald did it regardless of the evidence. They got in line.

    So, what a relief: "Oswald did it" and hence the true believers at the time saved humanity from a nuclear holocaust. Note that no sane, well-read person still believes that Oswald was a lone gunman ... but that is still the official narrative in spite of the fact that the House Select Committee on Assassinations concluding in 1979 that "on the basis of the evidence available to it, ... Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy." I guess that gets flushed down the memory hole, too.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_Select_Committee_on_Assassinations

    Bottom line: Government conspiracies exist and, yes, they can involve thousands of people.

    I read my very first ‘conspiracy’ book in 1976. It was a book about the murders of JFK, RFK, and MLK, entitled “The Assassinations: Dallas and Beyond”. Great book…probably still relevant today.

    Kennedy was attempting to expose a “monolithic and ruthless conspiracy” in his famous 1961 ‘Secret Society’ speech.

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  90. So we have one of two choices. 1. The laws of physics were violated or 2. A group of intelligent insiders were able to rig the building to collapse and keep their activities secret.

    You forgot 3.

    3> The magic dirt of America allowed a bunch of goat fuckers to weaken the building equally all around.

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  91. @Rurik
    pathetic

    Possibility one: There were no airplanes.
     
    um, Fred.. no airplane hit building seven

    this beam did not cut itself

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Scq5WpGiD4w/TmWM8tosxfI/AAAAAAAACwg/rroBM3CIRg8/s400/thermate%2Bcut.jpg

    it has slag around the cut. That's what you get when you cut steel Fred

    it isn't that they don't want a Pulitzer, they just don't want to end up like Michael Hastings, who was likely chasing the Pulitzer you're talking about.

    as Fred makes clear, it's very easy to get journalists to toe the line when it comes to which side of the bread has the butter on it

    or more the point, invitations to the cocktail party circuit in DC where he likes to visit periodically

    some people sell out on the cheap

    pathetic

    Yeah, isn’t it incredible? It’s like Freddy boy isn’t even trying. Does he formulate a single bona fide argument in the entire piece?

    Like he knows some guy who says he saw the plane fly into the Pentagon. Sure you do, Freddy boy, so fuckin’ what. I know somebody who says he saw… (fill in the blank..)

    Total crap. And it’s consciously so. The article is 100% intellectual fraud. And Fred knows it.

    Rurik, I know you are very inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt. I remember our endless discussion of whether Geokat was acting in bad faith. But I would strongly suggest that we should not cut Freddy boy any slack here.

    I’m certainly not inclined to turn the other cheek. This guy has now shown his true colors as a shit eater. This man is obviously being dishonest, and that is a terrible thing, and it is just not acceptable.

    I don’t think we should pull any punches with this guy. A guy like this is an unprincipled traitorous scumbag and I think we have to call it out. I have no intention of biting my tongue in any discussion regarding this kind of ass-licking whore.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    I have no intention of biting my tongue in any discussion regarding this kind of ass-licking whore.
     
    Lol

    it's not like thousands of Americans were slaughtered that day by the very people who're trusted to protect those people and their loved ones from harm

    it's not like they took all the perks and privileges and lucrative paychecks and then cynically calculated a plot to murder thousands of Americans with the intention of getting ever thousands more of them butchered and maimed fighting treasonous wars in far away places to benefit war profiteers or worse

    how would Fred feel about someone mocking the Vietnam vets who're angry that the Gulf of Tonkin was all a lie to make some men rich and get tens of thousands of poor men dead? (killing other poor people)

    how would Fred feel if people said the veterans of Nam shamed their betters by failing to obey orders, and those worthless, pot smoking losers failed America and their oaths by fragging the heroic officers who were patriotically trying to do the right thing? And keep America safe from those who hate her freedoms?! How would Fred feel about that?

    911 has caused the loss of our Constitutional freedoms, (hard won from tyrants by better men than what constitutes Americans today) and handed over to those very same tyrannical forces that our founders were willing to kill and die to vouchsafe for us, only to have us toss them away at the first sign of danger. Did I say pathetic?

    but none of this could be pulled off with out the willing collaboration of the men and women of the media, who are highly paid and more to the point, trusted, to keep us informed. Instead they lie to us 24/7 in the service of our enemies because our enemies toss over to them a few bags of shekels extra.

    Whoo boy, what it's come to, eh JR?
  92. @Sam J.
    Pentagon after a 757 supposedly hit it.

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_30TpBo-V_Ds/TQ0CdIQzg5I/AAAAAAAAAQ8/hs_DdBb8JNI/s1600/pentagon%2Battack%2Bearly%2Bpicture.jpg

    Here's a mock up picture showing the size of the plane.

    http://911mhairi.weebly.com/uploads/2/1/0/4/21048756/3852631.jpg?413

    Now here's a 757.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Icelandair_Boeing_757-256_Wedelstaedt.jpg

    See those big things on the wing. They're called engines and they are made of a very heavy high nickel alloy steel. Similar to meteorites. So where's the holes they made when they went into the building. There's a hole for the nose of the plane. The nose is very weak compared to the heat resistant heavy engines. I doubt more than a 3/8 thick aluminum. Like thick sheet metal. The fuselage is way weaker than an engine and it supposedly went all the way through the Pentagon. Where's the damn holes for those engines? Why didn't they go through? We see an engine on the lawn in one photo. Where's the hole where it gouged up the lawn? How did it get on the lawn if the plane was going over 500 mph? What about what the CNN reporter first reported?

    As initially reported from the scene by CNN Correspondent Jamie McIntyre:

    "From my close-up inspection, there's no evidence of a plane having crashed anywhere near the Pentagon.

    The only site, is the actual side of the building that's crashed in. And as I said, the only pieces left that you can see are small enough that you pick up in your hand. There are no large tail sections, wing sections, fuselage, nothing like that anywhere around which would indicate that the entire plane crashed into the side of the Pentagon and then caused the side to collapse.

    Even though if you look at the pictures of the Pentagon you see that the floors have all collapsed, that didn't happen immediately. It wasn't until almost about 45 minutes later that the structure was weakened enough that all of the floors collapsed."

    I believe something hit the Pentagon but it wasn't a 757.

    Can someone name an airliner,that can go 500 miles per hour at sea level without loosing its wings?

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    "Can someone name an airliner,that can go 500 miles per hour at sea level without loosing its wings?"
     
    The 767-200. Its placarded limitation is 360 KIAS, but push the power levers full forward and you will get at least 500 KIAS before the airframe starts to fall apart ... well, it is actually dependent on the individual airframe's condition, but I would be willing to bet at least a lunch you could get 500 MPH out of it before it failed.
  93. @Wizard of Oz
    You nd Ace are confusing me. I would have thought your short response woud just have been

    "Amateurs"?

    As to WTC 7 i don't know why it's a problem. A fire burns all day and eventually the effect on structural steel that much more intensive fires had in buildings 1 and 2 occurs.

    I may be operating under a mistaken fact set, but my understanding was that no planes hit Building 7, and there was no fire. Is that mistaken?

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I don't claim to be any kind of authority on 9/11 but it shouldn't take much searching to find reference to burning debris from one of the two planes' impacts on buildings 1 and 2 hitting WTC7 and starting a fire. Plus the videos of the fires in WTC 7 burning all day. What I have read and seen didn't leave me with any aerious doubt about those two facts. The alleged scientific impossibility of anything but a controlled demolition doing the job on all three towers is another matter. (I think it is probably BS).
  94. @sturbain
    Yes, I'm quite serious. I wanted to end my post with "cue the condescension", but thought that would have been impolite.

    Here is the problem in a nutshell. The events leading up to 9/11 were myriad in their number and relationships to each other. There were undoubtedly breakdowns of all sort - in terms of military intelligence, immigration, engineering, security screening, reporting, journalism, etc), that contributed to 9/11. In addition, many individual events that day were unprecedented. Taken together absolutely unprecedented. Could elements of 9/11 be considered suspicious? Certainly. Did someone get bribed to look the other way at an immigration form? Maybe. Did FBI or CIA or whoever get viable intelligence that an attack was going to take place, but they forgot it, misfiled it, were on a coffee break, didn't understand the language? Could very well be, (I'll believe in incompetence over conspiracy any day of the week). Could official reports have been scrubbed to cover up incompetence? Better believe it. Organizations do that all the time. Are there individual experts out there who can find troubling inconsistencies? Yes, because of the unprecedented nature of this event, one should expect lots. Is the way Building 7 fell weird? I'll grant you that, if there is one piece of this that stands out to me as inexplicable, it's building 7.

    An unprecedented event of this scale and scope will create a thousand head-scratchers. Taken together, one might say "AHA, it must be a conspiracy." But it's not. It's the cumulative effect of so many yet to be explained things, expressed ad nauseam and repeated in slomo video in online echo chambers that makes these things seem like a grand coordinated event by someone/thing with enormous resources, reach and ability - i.e. a government.

    But, again, could a cabal of military, business people, insurance companies, politicians, journalists, demolition experts, airlines, foreign governments, security workers, building managers, janitors, police, (on and on) work together to orchestrate a mass-murder of historic scale that remains a secret to this day? With not a sticky note of a paper trail? No secretly recorded meetings? No Snowden defecting to tell the truth? Not patriots willing to come forward to admit they were paid a vast sum of money, or had their families threatened? I've worked in large groups on confidential things for decades. THERE IS ALWAYS A LEAK. It is human nature to want to be the person who exposes other's wrong-doing. In a conspiracy of this scale there would be more leaks than you could count. Together, they would have blown the cover on a coordinated operation within days or weeks of the event. Guys, really, move on. Fred is right.

    Taki over at the other site said recently, "A thing is not worth doing unless it is worth doing well, but a thing that is done well that is not worth doing is something very bad indeed—far worse, in fact, than a thing worth doing that is done badly. Among other things, it bespeaks a waste of ability,". The incredible, incalculable efforts of thousands of people, some of whom are very smart indeed, to prove a conspiracy that is has no historical precedent, is outside of human nature, and laughable in terms of organizational complexity, is a profound waste of ability.

    An unprecedented event of this scale and scope will create a thousand head-scratchers.

    You mean:

    Like why the US Government failed to instigate a forensic investigation of the crime.

    Like, why the US Government failed to order a judicial inquiry into the crime.

    Like, why no one at the Pentagon was demoted or fired for NORAD’s total failure to protect New York and Washington DC, though they had the planes to do and well rehearsed routine for doing it (Or did they Air Force take down the plane that was supposed to have been crashed by the passengers at Shanksville?)

    As for

    THERE IS ALWAYS A LEAK.

    I guess that’s shouted in all caps so we understand what your saying. It’s about as compelling logically as saying that high-rise steel frame buildings that collapse due to fire (none ever had prior to 9/11) ALWAYS DESCEND AT OR NEAR FREE-FALL SPEED. In caps on not, it’s bollocks.

    Anyhow, there were leaks, plenty of them. For example, about the Bush Administration trashing tons of FBI data on the terrorist threats; about Bush’s anger at being warned by a CIA briefer of the risk of an attack; about how the “hijackers” were issued visas to enter the US at the order of the State Department, and contrary to the judgment of the visa office staff in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, etc., etc.

    As for historical precedent, what’s that to do with the question of what happened. We’re not living in history and weren’t on 9/11. We are and were then in the age of the high tech soft tyranny that involves, among other things, all kinds of half-educated idiots and paid trolls running cover for state crimes against democracy.

    Just another example of an ignoramus flicking off a complex issue on the basis of flip all.

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  95. @Wizard of Oz
    You nd Ace are confusing me. I would have thought your short response woud just have been

    "Amateurs"?

    As to WTC 7 i don't know why it's a problem. A fire burns all day and eventually the effect on structural steel that much more intensive fires had in buildings 1 and 2 occurs.
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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Thanks. Yes I think that was what I had read and seen that left me 99+% sure WTC7 didn't need a conspiracy explanation.
  96. There is a front photo of the pentagon impact, in high resolution. Posted soon after the attack in some forums, maybe you find it.

    It shows clearly the shape of an airliner, the big damage of the engines, a smaller one from the wings, even the damage from the tail. Find it or not, believe it or not, i don’t care.

    For me (as non US citizen) your conspiracy theories are simply delusion. Your government had to do it because nobody in the world has a reason for revenge. Wrong, too much people has too much reasons to hate the Big Satan the US are. In so much areas all over the world.

    Your collateral murders, collateral from the plundering you do simply because “you can”. Me wonders that there are not much more incidents against the infidels in humanity you represent best.

    Maybe because your victims are much more civilized than the people calling the US overbearing “gods own country”.

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  97. Fred Reed writes a column on folks who tinfoil hat’s and lights up the comment section from those who wear the hat’s, LOL. I have a web link they say, that proves it all….yep, if it’s on the internet it must be true.

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  98. come on, don’t be so over dramatic. everyone is entitle to their own opinions. especially when discussing theories. no one has the facts, or they wouldn’t be theories anymore.

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  99. @Jonathan Revusky

    I liked and respected Fred.
     
    Yeah, me too, basically. I was reading fredoneverything for years.

    I often enjoyed his articles
     

    Me too. But note the past tense!

    and will continue to read him
     
    Not me. No point wasting my time reading this lying shit eater.

    But I excuse him because I know that human spirit is weak and often cannot withstand some pressures.
     

    Well, you may be a more understanding person than I. I don't excuse him for this.

    Well, maybe we could forgive him. But he'd have to ask... well, BEG for forgiveness, and then... maaybe. But since he hasn't done that, to my way of thinking, it's completely out of the question.

    I excuse him but not giving him respect back.

    Do you think there something behind Fred’s hatched job and Ron’s somewhat closing his open mind as we witnessed yesterday in his comments on prominent individuals?

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  100. @The Alarmist
    I said it on another thread ... If there are so many Truthers who think their government is so evil that it will mass murder three thousand of its own people in one go, then instead of sitting around and playing keyboard kommandos, carping about the conspiracy and calling for yet another "independent" investigation (to what end?) that will be led by, manipulated or stonewalled by said same government, why don't you get off your butts and organize a mass (peaceful) march on DC to demand regime change, because you are never going to get it trading cutesy stories on the internet. Do it in springtime and you will also catch the cherry blossoms and good weather!

    Truthers who think their government is so evil that it will mass murder three thousand of its own people

    You dumb ape, even if you believe the official 9/11 story, the gov’t did in fact send over 3000 American soldiers to their deaths in Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11.

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    "You dumb ape, even if you believe the official 9/11 story, the gov’t did in fact send over 3000 American soldiers to their deaths in Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11."
     
    Yep, no question there, but sending troops into harm's way, for as objectionable reason as may be, is nevertheless a wholly different matter from killing innocent civilians who didn't sign up for hazardous duty.

    You are confusing misguided, perhaps even criminal foreign policy that is arguably within the bounds of a legitimate function of government with outright mass murder, you troll.
  101. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Biff
    *Allegory*
    "One of the best-known examples of allegory, Plato's Allegory of the Cave, forms a part of his larger work The Republic. In this allegory, Plato describes a group of people who have lived chained in a cave all of their lives, facing a blank wall (514a–b). The people watch shadows projected on the wall by things passing in front of a fire behind them and begin to ascribe forms to these shadows, using language to identify their world (514c–515a). According to the allegory, the shadows are as close as the prisoners get to viewing reality, until one of them finds his way into the outside world where he sees the actual objects that produced the shadows. He tries to tell the people in the cave of his discovery, but they do not believe him and vehemently resist his efforts to free them so they can see for themselves (516e–518a). This allegory is, on a basic level, about a philosopher who upon finding greater knowledge outside the cave of human understanding, seeks to share it as is his duty, and the foolishness of those who would ignore him because they think themselves educated enough.[2]"

    A good retort, but Dumbest Hasbara Troll on the Internet is being paid by Zionists to project false shadows on the blank wall.

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  102. @landlubber

    Truthers who think their government is so evil that it will mass murder three thousand of its own people
     
    You dumb ape, even if you believe the official 9/11 story, the gov't did in fact send over 3000 American soldiers to their deaths in Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11.

    “You dumb ape, even if you believe the official 9/11 story, the gov’t did in fact send over 3000 American soldiers to their deaths in Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11.”

    Yep, no question there, but sending troops into harm’s way, for as objectionable reason as may be, is nevertheless a wholly different matter from killing innocent civilians who didn’t sign up for hazardous duty.

    You are confusing misguided, perhaps even criminal foreign policy that is arguably within the bounds of a legitimate function of government with outright mass murder, you troll.

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  103. @CanSpeccy

    The flight 93 story is a fairy tale, it was clearly shot down by a US fighter jet.
     
    Nothing so important should be considered absolutely clear without careful consideration of all possibilities and all relevant evidence.

    We can be fairly certain that Flight 77 really did fly with real people on board. Passengers' names were published and my old school mate, the late Postman Patel, confirmed that one of the named passengers, a distant relative, was no longer at her place of work, the Georgetown University Hospital, and was presumed killed in the Crash of Flight 77.

    It is possible that Flight 77 was disposed of in some way other than flying it into the Pentagon, while the Pentagon was hit by a missile. But it is simpler to suppose that crew and passengers were knocked out with nerve gas while the plane was piloted remotely.

    Even simpler, I suppose, is to assume that 9/11 was Hani Hanjour's lucky day and the pilot who couldn't fly a single-engined Cessna 172 was inspired once at the controls of an airliner.

    But on the evidence available, I suggest that the public must leave open the question of what hit the Pentagon.

    There is, however, very good evidence now, that WTC7 did not collapse due to fire (see comment 39 above). Yet it was not hit by a plane. Moreover, it collapsed at free-fall speed for 2.25 seconds. So other than the use of pre-positioned explosives, what could account for its collapse?

    And if WTC7 was "pulled" (i.e., deliberately demolished) as Larry Silverstein the building's leasehold owner claimed, why not WTC 1 and 2?

    “There is, however, very good evidence now, that WTC7 did not collapse due to fire (see comment 39 above). Yet it was not hit by a plane. Moreover, it collapsed at free-fall speed for 2.25 seconds. So other than the use of pre-positioned explosives, what could account for its collapse?”

    Yeah, it actually collapsed in free fall for 2.25 seconds, but only after it spent the first 1.75 seconds of collapse accelerating from a resting position to free fall. After free fall, it then started to decelerate for the next 1.4 seconds as the falling structure impacted upon the lower structure.

    The key point here is that the building started out “at rest” and accelerated to a free fall stage, and that comports with how gravity works here on earth. Whether or not charges were used to take out the supporting structure or if the interior supporting structure simply failed cannot be determined from your observation that it was at some point in free fall. Even when you drop a building with charges, it does not immediately go into free fall.

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    • Replies: @The Scalpel
    @thealarmist listen, Emily Latella. Nobody cares that the building accellerated from rest to free fall speed. Everyone who ever took high school physics knows that. The point is that the whole building achieved free fall speed falling symmetrically. That is impossible for a collapse that occurred from assymmetrical damage. No, to do that for even 2 floors, the whole building had to come apart at once, i.e controlled demolition. The rest of your comments here seem equally uninformed and flippant.
    , @CanSpeccy
    Here's the response of physicist David Chandler, the person who compelled NIST to acknowledge the free-fall collapse of WTC 7:

    “In the case of a falling building, the only way it can go into free fall is if an external force removes the supporting structure. None of the gravitational potential energy of the building is available for this purpose, or it would slow the fall of the building. The fact of free fall by itself is strong evidence of explosive demolition, but the evidence of explosive demolition is even stronger than that.”

    “What is particularly striking is the suddenness of onset of free fall. Acceleration doesn’t build up gradually. The graph [measuring the building’s descent] simply turns a corner. The building went from [near] full support to zero support instantly.”

    “The onset of free fall was not only sudden, it extended across the whole width of the building… The fact the roof stayed level shows the building was in free fall across the entire width.”

    “The collapse we see cannot be due to a column failure, or a few column failures, or a sequence of column failures. All 24 interior columns and 58 perimeter columns had to have been removed over the span of 8 floors low in the building simultaneously to within a small fraction of a second, and in such a way that the top half of the building remains intact and uncrumpled.”
     

    To summarize: only explosives can instantaneously remove all support allowing the upper structure to accelerate downwards in free fall. Source
  104. @Horten
    Can someone name an airliner,that can go 500 miles per hour at sea level without loosing its wings?

    “Can someone name an airliner,that can go 500 miles per hour at sea level without loosing its wings?”

    The 767-200. Its placarded limitation is 360 KIAS, but push the power levers full forward and you will get at least 500 KIAS before the airframe starts to fall apart … well, it is actually dependent on the individual airframe’s condition, but I would be willing to bet at least a lunch you could get 500 MPH out of it before it failed.

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  105. @Rurik
    one last thing I should say

    on the day of 911, I was too much in shock to consider that the buildings were brought down by controlled demolition, even tho I remember thinking the whole thing was very strange

    then eventually I came to see it all for what it was; a false flag in order to get America to destroy several countries on Israel's behalf. (is what it is)

    but the point I want to make is that since then, most of the people I've communicated with about this event haven't given it much thought. They're too busy with their lives, and that's understandable.

    So that leaves the people who have given it some thought- and of the ones who still 'believe' the official story, I've found to be in several categories, but mainly the ones who're sincere, but hopelessly duped. And then the ones who know it was a lie and an inside job, but don't want that knowledge getting out there - perhaps because of their jobs or their sympathy to the Republican party or their sympathy for the idea of the American government as eternally 'good' or their sympathy for Zionism or their sympathy for "the Jews". Or a combination of all of the above.

    Reading Fred's egregious article, I confess I have no idea where on the spectrum Fred lies.

    To address the idea that no one has spilled the beans. There are several categories of bean spillers. The inner circle of those involved likely consisted of only a few people. This was a highly compartmentalized operation as most highly sensitive covert operations are. The penalty for an inner circle member spilling the beans is “suicide” or “accidental” death. There may be some examples of that.

    The rest of potential bean spillers at different levels only knew their little piece of the story. There have been many people who have repoted suspicious activity regarding the events of 911. These people can easily be marginalized as lying or being mistaken because they can only fill in a small part of the picture. These people are deemed unimportant by the mainstream (like Fred?).

    So the fact that all of the beans have not been spilled is a testament to a well run, highly compartmentalized security and intelligence operation. I do not believe that is impossible, even for the US government.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    The penalty for an inner circle member spilling the beans is “suicide” or “accidental” death. There may be some examples of that.
     
    Seth Conrad Rich

    regarding the events of 911. These people can easily be marginalized as lying or being mistaken because they can only fill in a small part of the picture
     
    http://911blogger.com/news/2011-07-21/wtc7-expert-witness-danny-jowenko-dies-car-crash

    So the fact that all of the beans have not been spilled is a testament to a well run, highly compartmentalized security and intelligence operation. I do not believe that is impossible, even for the US government.
     
    all we need to do is look at the USS Liberty to see that this is easy for these people

    just look at how eager even the "alternative", Internet journalists are to please the hand that feeds them

    they've been doing this since the beginning of time, and America has a well-established history of this kind of treachery, from the 'sinking of the Maine' to the Lusitania to the Gulf of Tonkin and Kuwaiti baby incubators, and I'm certain I'm leaving a lot of them out. And no one is ever held accountable. Bush senior is treated like an elderly statesmen even when we all know he lied us into the first Iraqi war.

    People are too bovine or powerless to worry about such things. But in the halls of power, men who lie us into wars are rewarded and coddled, whereas men who tell us the truth, like Edward Snowden, and hounded out of the country as traitors.

    Amazing eh?
  106. @Jonathan Revusky

    pathetic
     
    Yeah, isn't it incredible? It's like Freddy boy isn't even trying. Does he formulate a single bona fide argument in the entire piece?

    Like he knows some guy who says he saw the plane fly into the Pentagon. Sure you do, Freddy boy, so fuckin' what. I know somebody who says he saw... (fill in the blank..)

    Total crap. And it's consciously so. The article is 100% intellectual fraud. And Fred knows it.

    Rurik, I know you are very inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt. I remember our endless discussion of whether Geokat was acting in bad faith. But I would strongly suggest that we should not cut Freddy boy any slack here.

    I'm certainly not inclined to turn the other cheek. This guy has now shown his true colors as a shit eater. This man is obviously being dishonest, and that is a terrible thing, and it is just not acceptable.

    I don't think we should pull any punches with this guy. A guy like this is an unprincipled traitorous scumbag and I think we have to call it out. I have no intention of biting my tongue in any discussion regarding this kind of ass-licking whore.

    I have no intention of biting my tongue in any discussion regarding this kind of ass-licking whore.

    Lol

    it’s not like thousands of Americans were slaughtered that day by the very people who’re trusted to protect those people and their loved ones from harm

    it’s not like they took all the perks and privileges and lucrative paychecks and then cynically calculated a plot to murder thousands of Americans with the intention of getting ever thousands more of them butchered and maimed fighting treasonous wars in far away places to benefit war profiteers or worse

    how would Fred feel about someone mocking the Vietnam vets who’re angry that the Gulf of Tonkin was all a lie to make some men rich and get tens of thousands of poor men dead? (killing other poor people)

    how would Fred feel if people said the veterans of Nam shamed their betters by failing to obey orders, and those worthless, pot smoking losers failed America and their oaths by fragging the heroic officers who were patriotically trying to do the right thing? And keep America safe from those who hate her freedoms?! How would Fred feel about that?

    911 has caused the loss of our Constitutional freedoms, (hard won from tyrants by better men than what constitutes Americans today) and handed over to those very same tyrannical forces that our founders were willing to kill and die to vouchsafe for us, only to have us toss them away at the first sign of danger. Did I say pathetic?

    but none of this could be pulled off with out the willing collaboration of the men and women of the media, who are highly paid and more to the point, trusted, to keep us informed. Instead they lie to us 24/7 in the service of our enemies because our enemies toss over to them a few bags of shekels extra.

    Whoo boy, what it’s come to, eh JR?

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    Exactly.

    9/11 launched what in effect was a coup d'état.

    Remember it was George Dubya Bush who said:

    “If this were a dictatorship it would be a heck of a lot easier... as long as I'm the dictator. Hehehe.”

    And following 9/11 a dictator is what in effect G.W. Bush became: wars ad lib, extrajudicial killings of Americans and foreigners alike, rendition and torture of anyone assessed by some bureaucratic process to be a terrorist.

    But agree with Revusky too. Fred is crack-brained if he believes what he wrote, and a crook if he doesn't believe it.
    , @Sam Shama
    Hey Rurik
    So if this was truly a planned false flag operation involving the highest echelons of our government [you've said this on multiple occasions] which involved the NSA and or other covert agencies plus foreign governments, there would have to be some secret documents somewhere. An operation of this magnitude cannot be planned by telepathy nor "meetings" without minutes etc. can it?

    So Snowden is of the opinion that our agencies simply made a hash of it by failing to act upon intelligence they had. Here is what he had to say:

    In response to a question from Williams concerning a “non-traditional enemy,” Al-Qaeda, and how to prevent further attacks from that organization and others, Snowden suggested that United States had the proper intelligence ahead of 9/11 but failed to act.

    You know, and this is a key question that the 9/11 Commission considered. And what they found, in the post-mortem, when they looked at all of the classified intelligence from all of the different intelligence agencies, they found that we had all of the information we needed as an intelligence community, as a classified sector, as the national defense of the United States to detect this plot,” Snowden said. “We actually had records of the phone calls from the United States and out. The CIA knew who these guys were. The problem was not that we weren’t collecting information, it wasn’t that we didn’t have enough dots, it wasn’t that we didn’t have a haystack, it was that we did not understand the haystack"

    “The problem with mass surveillance is that we’re piling more hay on a haystack we already don’t understand, and this is the haystack of the human lives of every American citizen in our country,” Snowden continued. “If these programs aren’t keeping us safe, and they’re making us miss connections — vital connections — on information we already have, if we’re taking resources away from traditional methods of investigation, from law enforcement operations that we know work, if we’re missing things like the Boston Marathon bombings where all of these mass surveillance systems, every domestic dragnet in the world didn’t reveal guys that the Russian intelligence service told us about by name, is that really the best way to protect our country? Or are we — are we trying to throw money at a magic solution that’s actually not just costing us our safety, but our rights and our way of life?

     
    https://www.rt.com/usa/162576-nbc-snowden-september-attack/

    If after 15 years, if all "Truther" positions are so compelling, engineers and architects having weighed in, all of it openly available on the internet, why isn't the government, which should have every motive to suppress it, using it's unsurpassed powers under the Patriot Act, NOT bothered at all about it. Why aren't the Silicon Valley libertarian plutocrats like Zuckerberg, Page, Brin etc. jumping on all this information to start investigations that could totally expose the lies?!!!
  107. @The Alarmist

    "There is, however, very good evidence now, that WTC7 did not collapse due to fire (see comment 39 above). Yet it was not hit by a plane. Moreover, it collapsed at free-fall speed for 2.25 seconds. So other than the use of pre-positioned explosives, what could account for its collapse?"
     
    Yeah, it actually collapsed in free fall for 2.25 seconds, but only after it spent the first 1.75 seconds of collapse accelerating from a resting position to free fall. After free fall, it then started to decelerate for the next 1.4 seconds as the falling structure impacted upon the lower structure.

    The key point here is that the building started out "at rest" and accelerated to a free fall stage, and that comports with how gravity works here on earth. Whether or not charges were used to take out the supporting structure or if the interior supporting structure simply failed cannot be determined from your observation that it was at some point in free fall. Even when you drop a building with charges, it does not immediately go into free fall.

    @thealarmist listen, Emily Latella. Nobody cares that the building accellerated from rest to free fall speed. Everyone who ever took high school physics knows that. The point is that the whole building achieved free fall speed falling symmetrically. That is impossible for a collapse that occurred from assymmetrical damage. No, to do that for even 2 floors, the whole building had to come apart at once, i.e controlled demolition. The rest of your comments here seem equally uninformed and flippant.

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    "The point is that the whole building achieved free fall speed falling symmetrically."
     
    Well, it kind of looks like it fell symmetrically, but it kind of doesn't. How many camera angles have you seen? I've seen only one, and it only shows me one facade, so I'm kind of winging it here. The failure was likely in the center of the building, with everything falling into it (due to gravity), so something roughly symmetric would not be out of this world. Your assertion that something appearing to fall symmetrically is not possible is itself an unreasonable assumption.

    I love how people assume that something is impossible in nature and then based on that false premise go on to construct a massive conspiracy. I'm with Fred ... if this many people were involved, someone would have spilled the beans by now.
  108. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Fred is not the sharpest tool obviously nor has he done any homework, so there’ s no point arguing here. This article is just a not funny joke.

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  109. @The Grate Deign
    I may be operating under a mistaken fact set, but my understanding was that no planes hit Building 7, and there was no fire. Is that mistaken?

    I don’t claim to be any kind of authority on 9/11 but it shouldn’t take much searching to find reference to burning debris from one of the two planes’ impacts on buildings 1 and 2 hitting WTC7 and starting a fire. Plus the videos of the fires in WTC 7 burning all day. What I have read and seen didn’t leave me with any aerious doubt about those two facts. The alleged scientific impossibility of anything but a controlled demolition doing the job on all three towers is another matter. (I think it is probably BS).

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  110. @The Grate Deign
    Indeed I was mistaken. Building 7 burned according to this article.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2056088/Footage-kills-conspiracy-theories-Rare-footage-shows-WTC-7-consumed-fire.html

    Thanks. Yes I think that was what I had read and seen that left me 99+% sure WTC7 didn’t need a conspiracy explanation.

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  111. @The Alarmist
    I don't have all the facts, so he most I will cop to is that the officisl story is plausible. The more the Truthers make me look into various aspect, like how the towers were supposed to fall in some direction other than straight down, however, the more reasonable the official story actually seems.

    The more the Truthers make me look into various aspect, like how the towers were supposed to fall in some direction other than straight down

    LOL

    A nice piece of mis-direction. If by Truthers, you mean intelligent people with a background in math, physics, engineering who have studied the evidence, then what they would have you look at (assuming they cared where someone so incapable of understanding the basic situation were to look) is not “how the towers were supposed to fall in some direction other than straight down”, but how the towers were not supposed to fall at all.

    I realize it is utterly futile arguing with those who know nothing about the subject, care not to inform themselves of anything about the subject, and who yet wish to pontificate about the subject, but here are some basic realities you might try to assimilate, ruminate upon and use as a basis for revising your position of comfortable complacency.

    First, until 9/11, 2001, no steel frame highrise building anywhere in the world had collapsed due to fire, which might make a thoughtful person wonder if fire was perhaps not, as NIST proclaimed, the cause of the Towers collapsing.

    Second, for a highrise building to fall in its own footprint, it is necessary that all supporting columns, walls, beams, whatever give way simultaneously. Otherwise, the collapse will not be symmetrical. But it is impossible that fires would cause all supporting structures to give way simultaneously, even if fires in the three towers that collapsed on 9/11 were hot enough — which they were not — to cause failure in the support buildings’ support columns.

    Third, not only did Building 7 fall in its own footprint at free-fall speed for 2.2 seconds, i.e., over a height equal to eight stories, indicating instantaneous, which is to say explosive, removal of all support columns, but its collapse was announced by in advance by the BBC, and furthermore, was described as having been “pulled” by the building’s leasehold owner, Larry Silverstein, “pulled” being a term applied by building demolition specialists to the taking down of a building with explosives.

    But who’s to say, ignorance is not bliss.

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    "First, until 9/11, 2001, no steel frame highrise building anywhere in the world had collapsed due to fire, which might make a thoughtful person wonder if fire was perhaps not, as NIST proclaimed, the cause of the Towers collapsing."
     
    Two things. First, nearly all such towers on fire (without sprinklers working) still had a serious firefighting effort at play. Second, can one ever conceive that maybe there was a flaw in the construction of this one building? That seems the more likely explanation.
  112. @Rurik

    I have no intention of biting my tongue in any discussion regarding this kind of ass-licking whore.
     
    Lol

    it's not like thousands of Americans were slaughtered that day by the very people who're trusted to protect those people and their loved ones from harm

    it's not like they took all the perks and privileges and lucrative paychecks and then cynically calculated a plot to murder thousands of Americans with the intention of getting ever thousands more of them butchered and maimed fighting treasonous wars in far away places to benefit war profiteers or worse

    how would Fred feel about someone mocking the Vietnam vets who're angry that the Gulf of Tonkin was all a lie to make some men rich and get tens of thousands of poor men dead? (killing other poor people)

    how would Fred feel if people said the veterans of Nam shamed their betters by failing to obey orders, and those worthless, pot smoking losers failed America and their oaths by fragging the heroic officers who were patriotically trying to do the right thing? And keep America safe from those who hate her freedoms?! How would Fred feel about that?

    911 has caused the loss of our Constitutional freedoms, (hard won from tyrants by better men than what constitutes Americans today) and handed over to those very same tyrannical forces that our founders were willing to kill and die to vouchsafe for us, only to have us toss them away at the first sign of danger. Did I say pathetic?

    but none of this could be pulled off with out the willing collaboration of the men and women of the media, who are highly paid and more to the point, trusted, to keep us informed. Instead they lie to us 24/7 in the service of our enemies because our enemies toss over to them a few bags of shekels extra.

    Whoo boy, what it's come to, eh JR?

    Exactly.

    9/11 launched what in effect was a coup d’état.

    Remember it was George Dubya Bush who said:

    “If this were a dictatorship it would be a heck of a lot easier… as long as I’m the dictator. Hehehe.”

    And following 9/11 a dictator is what in effect G.W. Bush became: wars ad lib, extrajudicial killings of Americans and foreigners alike, rendition and torture of anyone assessed by some bureaucratic process to be a terrorist.

    But agree with Revusky too. Fred is crack-brained if he believes what he wrote, and a crook if he doesn’t believe it.

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    • Replies: @utu
    "9/11 launched what in effect was a coup d’état." - The anthrax letters operation was warning to possible opposition among politicians and media. And one year later (2002) the sniper attacks in DC operation was the warning to Congress to make a right decision when deliberating on war on Iraq. And George "Slum Dunk" Tenet was paranoid fearing for his life. Can you believe it? CIA director is afraid when being driven in DC every time they have to stop on red light? In America? In 21 century?
    , @Rurik

    And following 9/11 a dictator is what in effect G.W. Bush became: wars ad lib, extrajudicial killings of Americans and foreigners alike, rendition and torture of anyone assessed by some bureaucratic process to be a terrorist.
     
    the staggering treason of a law like NDAA could only have been possible in the age of post-911 America

    every treasonous, POS politician who betrayed their sacred oath to uphold the Constitution- and then voted for the NDAA- deserves to hang by the neck
  113. @CanSpeccy

    Again, it’s not as important to know how they came down as much as who and why.
     
    Most forensic investigations begin with an examination of what happened and how. And the how may tell you who, or who not, and why or why not.

    For example, iron microspheres and particles of nanothermite in the dust at ground zero tells you that something happened quite independent of the alleged actions of 19 guys with box cutters on board the hi-jacked planes.


    This has even caused you to argue with me as if I’ve swallowed the official propaganda, which I haven’t.
     
    You may not have swallowed the official propaganda, but you are opening yourself to ridicule by applying sloppy thinking to a tricky forensic problem. That problem is to discover what happened despite the fact that a succession of US Administrations has refused to conduct a judicial inquiry or undertake a forensic investigation.

    The attack was a false flag, or a Pearl Harbor type of thing at least facilitated by those who wanted the US to do what it has done since.
     
    That's a widely held hypothesis, not an established fact. It's establishing the fact that requires careful analysis and verification. Offering what seems to you to be a bit of common sense, really doesn't cut it. What it does is expose those who question the official account of 9/11 to ridicule by the defenders of the official story.

    BTW I’ve known since middle school someone who is the head of another department at UofA in Fairbanks. He’s a good guy and all that, but I’ve seen him be wrong in his field over the years like every other expert. Such persons are not omniscient, so your citing adds little.
     
    So someone else at the same school is not so swift, therefore you dismiss the work of Leroy Hulsey without any knowledge of his team's work or therefore without any rational argument whatever?

    You must have the defenders of the official story laughing. In fact, if I were orchestrating an effort to keep the public confused, this is exactly the kind of argument I would deploy in public.

    In fact, if I were orchestrating an effort to keep the public confused, this is exactly the kind of argument I would deploy in public.

    Or, is yours?

    Listen, you have written a very good response to me. (And my anecdote about my old buddy the professor in Alaska is indeed pretty pathetic, but I just had to mention it. The point being “experts” are often wrong and at odds with each other.)

    It simply isn’t necessary to have demolition, thermite, and all the access and complication that implies. It’s by now a cliche, but hey, Occam’s Razor.

    Big jets loaded with fuel crashed into the buildings. Fires burned. Steel definitely got soft and sagged…The buildings came down. These things I know, and they are enough. You are the one opening this up to ridicule by requiring all the improbable, impossible to keep secret, multi-fold conspiratorial acts by teams of minions to make your Rube Goldberg scheme work.

    Hey, I also believe Oswald acted alone, so call me a moron. Who he was and why he did it is the real question. BTW Americans really did land on the Moon too.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    Big jets loaded with fuel crashed into the buildings. Fires burned. Steel definitely got soft and sagged…The buildings came down. These things I know, and they are enough. ...
    Hey, I also believe Oswald acted alone, so call me a moron.
     
    O.K. To be obliging: You're a moron.

    Fact is, you know nothing whatever about the steel, what temperature it reached or whether it got soft, or whether it melted. Or if you do, give us the specifics, the sources of information you are basing your claim on. We can go from there.

  114. @The Scalpel
    To address the idea that no one has spilled the beans. There are several categories of bean spillers. The inner circle of those involved likely consisted of only a few people. This was a highly compartmentalized operation as most highly sensitive covert operations are. The penalty for an inner circle member spilling the beans is "suicide" or "accidental" death. There may be some examples of that.

    The rest of potential bean spillers at different levels only knew their little piece of the story. There have been many people who have repoted suspicious activity regarding the events of 911. These people can easily be marginalized as lying or being mistaken because they can only fill in a small part of the picture. These people are deemed unimportant by the mainstream (like Fred?).

    So the fact that all of the beans have not been spilled is a testament to a well run, highly compartmentalized security and intelligence operation. I do not believe that is impossible, even for the US government.

    The penalty for an inner circle member spilling the beans is “suicide” or “accidental” death. There may be some examples of that.

    Seth Conrad Rich

    regarding the events of 911. These people can easily be marginalized as lying or being mistaken because they can only fill in a small part of the picture

    http://911blogger.com/news/2011-07-21/wtc7-expert-witness-danny-jowenko-dies-car-crash

    So the fact that all of the beans have not been spilled is a testament to a well run, highly compartmentalized security and intelligence operation. I do not believe that is impossible, even for the US government.

    all we need to do is look at the USS Liberty to see that this is easy for these people

    just look at how eager even the “alternative”, Internet journalists are to please the hand that feeds them

    they’ve been doing this since the beginning of time, and America has a well-established history of this kind of treachery, from the ‘sinking of the Maine’ to the Lusitania to the Gulf of Tonkin and Kuwaiti baby incubators, and I’m certain I’m leaving a lot of them out. And no one is ever held accountable. Bush senior is treated like an elderly statesmen even when we all know he lied us into the first Iraqi war.

    People are too bovine or powerless to worry about such things. But in the halls of power, men who lie us into wars are rewarded and coddled, whereas men who tell us the truth, like Edward Snowden, and hounded out of the country as traitors.

    Amazing eh?

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  115. It would help if people realized that it was not even necessary for the towers to come down for the desired effect to be made.

    On this anniversary of that big show, I watched the event through again.

    (I witnessed the whole thing live from start to finish fifteen years ago, because my financial office had monitors always tuned to CNBC for our clients. CNBC is Wall-Street centric, so their coverage was closer and more raw than the other networks. We in our office had a front row seat from the moment a smoking hole appeared in the first tower.)

    What I noted more clearly this time is that the towers didn’t even have to collapse for America to suddenly go on the war path. The made-for-TV spectacle already had its desired effect before anything fell.

    Jets with innocent passengers had smashed into icons filled with more victims. Fireworks ensued, followed by Towering Infernos. People jumped from the buildings to their death, on live TV as people screamed. Anchormen said America is now at war.

    Then the building came down. Icing on the cake. Didn’t have to happen, and could not have been counted on by the perpetrators (without teams of co-conspirators carrying out the most unlikely and impossible to hide scheme).

    The collapses are irrelevant to the conspiracy, which I do believe is real.

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  116. @CanSpeccy
    Exactly.

    9/11 launched what in effect was a coup d'état.

    Remember it was George Dubya Bush who said:

    “If this were a dictatorship it would be a heck of a lot easier... as long as I'm the dictator. Hehehe.”

    And following 9/11 a dictator is what in effect G.W. Bush became: wars ad lib, extrajudicial killings of Americans and foreigners alike, rendition and torture of anyone assessed by some bureaucratic process to be a terrorist.

    But agree with Revusky too. Fred is crack-brained if he believes what he wrote, and a crook if he doesn't believe it.

    “9/11 launched what in effect was a coup d’état.” – The anthrax letters operation was warning to possible opposition among politicians and media. And one year later (2002) the sniper attacks in DC operation was the warning to Congress to make a right decision when deliberating on war on Iraq. And George “Slum Dunk” Tenet was paranoid fearing for his life. Can you believe it? CIA director is afraid when being driven in DC every time they have to stop on red light? In America? In 21 century?

    Read More
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    There appears no way for America to return to constitutional government except via a counter coup. Trump, who speaks for the Constitution and the rule of law, is apparently engaged in an attempted counter-coup against the treasonous Republicrat duopoly.

    Hillary is floundering so badly, one begins to suspect that she working in league with Trump, and is attempting to throw the election. Bill's inane remarks, such as proposing that a hundred thousand or so Syrian refugees be settled in Detroit, a city imploding for lack of jobs, suggest that he is also part of the team.

  117. Freddie is one of our free lancing assets. He reports his pal after many 24 ouncers and a couple of bong hits happened to get his butt up off the couch and look out the window just in time to see a tail whip on by. We have purposely left on the internet the picture of the initial 20′ entrance hole in the pentagon facade……where are the wings and tail components as they could not possibly fit through the 20′ hole? What we here in Ft. Meade and Langley especially like about Freddie is that he is wrong on almost everything i.e. a very useful attribute.

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  118. @Buzz Mohawk

    In fact, if I were orchestrating an effort to keep the public confused, this is exactly the kind of argument I would deploy in public.
     
    Or, is yours?

    Listen, you have written a very good response to me. (And my anecdote about my old buddy the professor in Alaska is indeed pretty pathetic, but I just had to mention it. The point being "experts" are often wrong and at odds with each other.)

    It simply isn't necessary to have demolition, thermite, and all the access and complication that implies. It's by now a cliche, but hey, Occam's Razor.

    Big jets loaded with fuel crashed into the buildings. Fires burned. Steel definitely got soft and sagged...The buildings came down. These things I know, and they are enough. You are the one opening this up to ridicule by requiring all the improbable, impossible to keep secret, multi-fold conspiratorial acts by teams of minions to make your Rube Goldberg scheme work.

    Hey, I also believe Oswald acted alone, so call me a moron. Who he was and why he did it is the real question. BTW Americans really did land on the Moon too.

    Big jets loaded with fuel crashed into the buildings. Fires burned. Steel definitely got soft and sagged…The buildings came down. These things I know, and they are enough. …
    Hey, I also believe Oswald acted alone, so call me a moron.

    O.K. To be obliging: You’re a moron.

    Fact is, you know nothing whatever about the steel, what temperature it reached or whether it got soft, or whether it melted. Or if you do, give us the specifics, the sources of information you are basing your claim on. We can go from there.

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    • Replies: @Buzz Mohawk
    It simply doesn't matter. That's what I understand and you don't.

    I do know that interstate highway overpasses are far more massive and robust than were the WTC suspended floors. What part of "I saw one sag like a wet noodle" is wrong?

    But no, we can't "go from there," because this is irrelevant. Even if you are correct, it doesn't matter.
  119. @SolontoCroesus

    With that money they have purchased the media and entertainment industries, and thanks to crooks like Reagan and Clinton, they were able to take over most US media through consolidation. Then the music industry, and certainly entertainment/Hollywood, Wall Street, and finally US politics.
     
    Adjust your timeline a bit, TJM:


    from
    Capturing the German Eye: American Visual Propaganda in Occupied Germany by Cora Sol Goldstein

    During World War II, the U S government had also relied heavily on visual propaganda. In June 1942 the Roosevelt administration created the Office of War Information (OWI) to shape American public opinion and encourage prowar sentiments. The agency sought to explain the war to American civilians, to mobilize the home front, to increase morale, and to indoctrinate American soldiers .
    OWI believed that the easiest way to transmit propaganda effectively was through film, especially when spectators were unaware that they were being propagandized. Therefore, Hollywood was conscripted for the war effort.
    Under the guidance of the OWI, Hollywood produced feature films intended to educate, inspire, and entertain, and military training films to teach soldiers why they were fighting and how to fight.

    The relationship between the OWI and Hollywood amounted to a virtual merger between the state and the movie industry with the goal of shaping American public opinion.8
     
    At the time -- the late 1930s and 1940s -- Hollywood studios were run exclusively by Jews.
    Ronald Reagan got his start as an actor working as a war propagandist for Hollywood studios.

    Ronald Regean did not get his start as an actor directing military training films.
    That is what he directed, mundane training films such as how to take apart, repait, clean and put back carburetors in various military vehicles

    I believe he wrote and directed those films not acted in them. He may have been filmed demonstrating something like how to arrange supplies, but one could not call that acting. The military training films used ordinary soldiers, not actors

    Regean was a well known actor, a movie star actually for a decade before he was drafted and the army assigned him to direct training films.

    FYI from about 1934 on, the FDR administration, the English government and Hollywood worked together making pro British historical films and other pro British films.. Typical films are the numerous movies of English pirate Errol Flynn bravely battling the evil Spanish navy

    Spain symbolized Germany . The brave 1500s English pirates of course symbolized brave and virtuous 1930s England and Churchill war mongering to crush Germany.

    But Regran was a movie star long before he was drafted and assigned to make training films

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  120. @utu
    "9/11 launched what in effect was a coup d’état." - The anthrax letters operation was warning to possible opposition among politicians and media. And one year later (2002) the sniper attacks in DC operation was the warning to Congress to make a right decision when deliberating on war on Iraq. And George "Slum Dunk" Tenet was paranoid fearing for his life. Can you believe it? CIA director is afraid when being driven in DC every time they have to stop on red light? In America? In 21 century?

    There appears no way for America to return to constitutional government except via a counter coup. Trump, who speaks for the Constitution and the rule of law, is apparently engaged in an attempted counter-coup against the treasonous Republicrat duopoly.

    Hillary is floundering so badly, one begins to suspect that she working in league with Trump, and is attempting to throw the election. Bill’s inane remarks, such as proposing that a hundred thousand or so Syrian refugees be settled in Detroit, a city imploding for lack of jobs, suggest that he is also part of the team.

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama

    Trump, who speaks for the Constitution and the rule of law, is apparently engaged in an attempted counter-coup against the treasonous Republicrat duopoly.
     
    I am voting Trump primarily for his economic plan. However, you can rest assured he is going to scale up massively, U.S. Military strength.

    Also, look for him to move U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem as agreed with Adelson. So counter coup'er he ain't. You can take that to the bank.

    , @Corvinus
    "There appears no way for America to return to constitutional government except via a counter coup."

    We have constitutional government and the rule of law. It's just that some people don't like how it has been implemented.
  121. @CanSpeccy

    Big jets loaded with fuel crashed into the buildings. Fires burned. Steel definitely got soft and sagged…The buildings came down. These things I know, and they are enough. ...
    Hey, I also believe Oswald acted alone, so call me a moron.
     
    O.K. To be obliging: You're a moron.

    Fact is, you know nothing whatever about the steel, what temperature it reached or whether it got soft, or whether it melted. Or if you do, give us the specifics, the sources of information you are basing your claim on. We can go from there.

    It simply doesn’t matter. That’s what I understand and you don’t.

    I do know that interstate highway overpasses are far more massive and robust than were the WTC suspended floors. What part of “I saw one sag like a wet noodle” is wrong?

    But no, we can’t “go from there,” because this is irrelevant. Even if you are correct, it doesn’t matter.

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  122. @Rurik

    I have no intention of biting my tongue in any discussion regarding this kind of ass-licking whore.
     
    Lol

    it's not like thousands of Americans were slaughtered that day by the very people who're trusted to protect those people and their loved ones from harm

    it's not like they took all the perks and privileges and lucrative paychecks and then cynically calculated a plot to murder thousands of Americans with the intention of getting ever thousands more of them butchered and maimed fighting treasonous wars in far away places to benefit war profiteers or worse

    how would Fred feel about someone mocking the Vietnam vets who're angry that the Gulf of Tonkin was all a lie to make some men rich and get tens of thousands of poor men dead? (killing other poor people)

    how would Fred feel if people said the veterans of Nam shamed their betters by failing to obey orders, and those worthless, pot smoking losers failed America and their oaths by fragging the heroic officers who were patriotically trying to do the right thing? And keep America safe from those who hate her freedoms?! How would Fred feel about that?

    911 has caused the loss of our Constitutional freedoms, (hard won from tyrants by better men than what constitutes Americans today) and handed over to those very same tyrannical forces that our founders were willing to kill and die to vouchsafe for us, only to have us toss them away at the first sign of danger. Did I say pathetic?

    but none of this could be pulled off with out the willing collaboration of the men and women of the media, who are highly paid and more to the point, trusted, to keep us informed. Instead they lie to us 24/7 in the service of our enemies because our enemies toss over to them a few bags of shekels extra.

    Whoo boy, what it's come to, eh JR?

    Hey Rurik
    So if this was truly a planned false flag operation involving the highest echelons of our government [you've said this on multiple occasions] which involved the NSA and or other covert agencies plus foreign governments, there would have to be some secret documents somewhere. An operation of this magnitude cannot be planned by telepathy nor “meetings” without minutes etc. can it?

    So Snowden is of the opinion that our agencies simply made a hash of it by failing to act upon intelligence they had. Here is what he had to say:

    In response to a question from Williams concerning a “non-traditional enemy,” Al-Qaeda, and how to prevent further attacks from that organization and others, Snowden suggested that United States had the proper intelligence ahead of 9/11 but failed to act.

    You know, and this is a key question that the 9/11 Commission considered. And what they found, in the post-mortem, when they looked at all of the classified intelligence from all of the different intelligence agencies, they found that we had all of the information we needed as an intelligence community, as a classified sector, as the national defense of the United States to detect this plot,” Snowden said. “We actually had records of the phone calls from the United States and out. The CIA knew who these guys were. The problem was not that we weren’t collecting information, it wasn’t that we didn’t have enough dots, it wasn’t that we didn’t have a haystack, it was that we did not understand the haystack”

    “The problem with mass surveillance is that we’re piling more hay on a haystack we already don’t understand, and this is the haystack of the human lives of every American citizen in our country,” Snowden continued. “If these programs aren’t keeping us safe, and they’re making us miss connections — vital connections — on information we already have, if we’re taking resources away from traditional methods of investigation, from law enforcement operations that we know work, if we’re missing things like the Boston Marathon bombings where all of these mass surveillance systems, every domestic dragnet in the world didn’t reveal guys that the Russian intelligence service told us about by name, is that really the best way to protect our country? Or are we — are we trying to throw money at a magic solution that’s actually not just costing us our safety, but our rights and our way of life?

    https://www.rt.com/usa/162576-nbc-snowden-september-attack/

    If after 15 years, if all “Truther” positions are so compelling, engineers and architects having weighed in, all of it openly available on the internet, why isn’t the government, which should have every motive to suppress it, using it’s unsurpassed powers under the Patriot Act, NOT bothered at all about it. Why aren’t the Silicon Valley libertarian plutocrats like Zuckerberg, Page, Brin etc. jumping on all this information to start investigations that could totally expose the lies?!!!

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    Zuckerberg, Page, Brin etc. jumping on all this information to start investigations that could totally expose the lies?!!!
     
    if you had irrefutable proof that Israel had perpetrated 911, would you tell the world Sam?

    (that's a rhetorical question ;)

    as for Snowden, I've always suspected that it was revelations regarding 911 that pushed him over the edge. He gave up everything a young man could possibly want.. money, power, prestige, perks galore, a back stage pass to all classified information, a beautiful home in Hawaii and a cute girlfriend. Everything. And he tossed it all away and risked being tortured to death at some CIA black site and his name eternally scourged as a modern day Benedict Arnold.

    whatever it was that motivated him to take that extremely drastic decision, I suspect was more soul-wrenching than 'they're reading your emails!'
  123. @CanSpeccy
    There appears no way for America to return to constitutional government except via a counter coup. Trump, who speaks for the Constitution and the rule of law, is apparently engaged in an attempted counter-coup against the treasonous Republicrat duopoly.

    Hillary is floundering so badly, one begins to suspect that she working in league with Trump, and is attempting to throw the election. Bill's inane remarks, such as proposing that a hundred thousand or so Syrian refugees be settled in Detroit, a city imploding for lack of jobs, suggest that he is also part of the team.

    Trump, who speaks for the Constitution and the rule of law, is apparently engaged in an attempted counter-coup against the treasonous Republicrat duopoly.

    I am voting Trump primarily for his economic plan. However, you can rest assured he is going to scale up massively, U.S. Military strength.

    Also, look for him to move U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem as agreed with Adelson. So counter coup’er he ain’t. You can take that to the bank.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy

    you can rest assured he is going to scale up massively, U.S. Military strength.

    Also, look for him to move U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem as agreed with Adelson. So counter coup’er he ain’t. You can take that to the bank.
     

    As you know full well, your comment is totally irrelevant. But since the discussion is so totally futile, as indeed is, in my view, Fred's article, indeed why not change the subject.

    It has occurred to me that Trump would build up the military, at least in numbers of soldiers, just to make an impact on the unemployment rate. I don't know what it costs to hire a soldier and put him or her through some basic training, but I would have thought $50 billion a year would pay for a doubling in military manpower, a small price to pay, surely, for a one to two percent cut in the official unemployment rate.

    As for the embassy, I don't really understand what's involved. Wouldn't you want the embassy wherever the Israeli government and foreign ministry is located? There is much more to the question, obviously. Maybe Trump can cut the Gordian knot.

    Here's my idea. The Jews stole Palestine from the indigenous people. But they did it at the tail end of the era of European colonialism, when everyone who could was in the business of stealing other peoples' countries. (The process of course continues with the Third World now taking over Europe and, with the aid of Hillary and Obama, the USA too).

    The problem for the Jews now is that the Palestinians are still in Palestine and still fighting for their rights, a struggle in which they deserve the support of all freedom loving people. So how to solve the problem? The solution, I suggest, is for the Jews to acknowledge the theft and, with their friends in the West, pay compensation.

    Specifically, I suggest that the US, Britain, etc. buy a few thousand square kilometers of Sinai from Egypt and settle the Palestinans there with billions and billions in aid to enable the construction of both a new Palestinian capital and a high tech, agricultural sector (dependent on solar power and seawater desalination).

    It might cost half a trillion dollars over say 25 years, a small amount, really, which even Israel alone could pay, although the US and others would surely accept most of the cost.

    , @dahoit
    The zionists want no part of Trump as POTUS,Adelson isn't behind him,and as far as the embassy,as an American it really is non importante,as it will not prevent the ziomonsters from stealing more land in their ethnic cleansing program.
    Trump said he would be even handed re I-P and since that day the opposition from the mole traitors has been malevolent and vicious.
    He is certainly no get along go along guy,and if you think his election will let the Zionists screw USA further,you got another think coming.
    Why would he kow tow to his and America's enemy?
    And the NYC bombings got him a few more million votes.
    Trump for POTUS.
  124. @Anonymous Smith
    I've seen the movie 'Gaslight' several times...it's a good ol' classic.

    The Jews have been forcibly expelled 119 times from 109 countries (not to mention the thousands of villages, towns, and cities that have given them the boot!)...we've known about their criminal activities for more than a thousand years, yet they endure, and thrive. How is that possible?

    The short answer is: Christianity. I believe the Jews invented Christianity in order to have a large and permanent Goyim entity to feed off of. But even if they didn't invent Christianity (which they did) they could, and have, infiltrated themselves into the Christian Church in large numbers in order to take control of the Church and guide it wherever they want it to go. It's super-simple to infiltrate into the Christian Church...all you have to do is say "Praise Jesus, the King of kings!" through out a few Hallelujah's and you're in! Most people don't know this, but, Torquemada, the Grand Inquisitor of Spain, was a Crypto-Jew. A murderous psychopathic Crypto-Jew, as it turns out. He had no problem whatsoever infiltrating into the Catholic Church and rapidly rising to a strategic position of power, wherein he began a bloody campaign that forever stained the image of the Catholic Church...mission accomplished!

    I have nothing good to say about Christians...so let's just leave it at that.

    The Jews go to great lengths to protect the integrity of their religious infrastructure. It's virtually impossible for a Goy to infiltrate into any position of power in Judaism.

    The Jews go to great lengths to protect the integrity of their religious infrastructure. It’s virtually impossible for a Goy to infiltrate into any position of power in Judaism.

    True, but irrelevant. Jewish power, wealth, and corruption, as the enormous, insidious structure that it is today, has no religious component per se. An identification that is nominally “religious” by definition, sure. Actual religion? No.

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  125. @Rurik
    one last thing I should say

    on the day of 911, I was too much in shock to consider that the buildings were brought down by controlled demolition, even tho I remember thinking the whole thing was very strange

    then eventually I came to see it all for what it was; a false flag in order to get America to destroy several countries on Israel's behalf. (is what it is)

    but the point I want to make is that since then, most of the people I've communicated with about this event haven't given it much thought. They're too busy with their lives, and that's understandable.

    So that leaves the people who have given it some thought- and of the ones who still 'believe' the official story, I've found to be in several categories, but mainly the ones who're sincere, but hopelessly duped. And then the ones who know it was a lie and an inside job, but don't want that knowledge getting out there - perhaps because of their jobs or their sympathy to the Republican party or their sympathy for the idea of the American government as eternally 'good' or their sympathy for Zionism or their sympathy for "the Jews". Or a combination of all of the above.

    Reading Fred's egregious article, I confess I have no idea where on the spectrum Fred lies.

    then eventually I came to see it all for what it was; a false flag in order to get America to destroy several countries on Israel’s behalf. (is what it is)

    Precisely.

    Cui bono? Who stood to gain? Israel, foremost. Secondly, George W. Bush and his coterie of neocons.

    Who wanted to do the deed? Take your pick of any crew of whack-job Islamic radicals. Bin Laden is as good a choice as any other — he had the profile and the funding.

    Who knew about it? Israeli intelligence, obviously. CIA, maybe (the CIA “intelligence” people I met in South America were not what one would term “intelligent”). Maybe Israel helped out the hijackers a bit by misdirecting US “intelligence”. Israel despises America for being led by a gang of pussified namby-pambies capable of doing nothing but kissing Israeli butt and taking Israeli bribes.

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    • Replies: @Rurik
    Hey John,

    Cui bono? Who stood to gain? Israel
     
    "it's very good"

    Maybe Israel helped out the hijackers a bit by misdirecting US “intelligence”
     
    now John, I'm glad you bring this up, because you are obviously engaged with this issue in good faith, and so your intentions are clear and unassailable... (or at least so it seems to me)

    But this is the thing, we all have been glimmering the truth about that event in stages. First we come to the realization that is was a false flag, and then we go from there. Some of us are at the beginning stages and some of us have been at this for nearly fifteen years.

    What we all agree on, it that the official version is a pack of lies. Pure bullshit. Rather 911 was the worst kind of crime you can even imagine, because it was committed by the very people who are exalted to power and trusted to keep Americans safe, and it was done on behalf of America's worst and most intractable enemy; International globalist/central bankster- Zionist supremacists-

    "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies"

    ~ Thomas Jefferson

    - for whom we fought both world wars and for whom we are fighting in the Middle East.

    Anyways, once you come to terms with all this, then you start putting the pieces together.

    There are tones of minutia that should be sorted out in time. Perhaps much, or even most of it, we'll never know. Just like who ordered the Kennedy assassination, or who assassinated Michael Hastings, or who sent the anthrax letters..

    But -IMHO- we should never allow all the minutia vis-a-vis 911 to become a distraction to the central issue - that they did it. Israel did 911 and elements at the highest levels of our government and media helped them. This, it seems to me at this point, is obvious.

    So, when it comes to little side issues like if there really were any actual "hijackers" or 'terrorists' on those planes or even if they were actually flying them, is all part of the avalanche of details that can be sorted out eventually. Today they're just distractions to the big picture.

    Here on the UR it seems we're not pilots or structural engineers or professionals per se. But rather we're truth seekers and quasi-philosophers and generally interested in the big picture. So we should perhaps find some really good forum for the details of 911, (or the UR could perhaps set up running forums to discuss things like this [and other re-occurring themes like the Holocaust for instance], that often become distractions to the edifying enlightenments we all come here for)

    But anyways I say all of that because I just wanted to mention that there are a lot of 'truthers' who don't believe for one second that those semi-literate, coke-snorting, titty bar frequenting, flight training dunderheads could have pulled off those maneuvers with those particular jets.

    no

    rather we more or less believe that the modified jets that hit the towers- (there are some who don't even believe it was jets but something else entirely) - or whatever they were, were guided into the towers by remote control. Which would negate the necessity of having a dunderhead (who couldn't fly a Cessna) fly them and possibly screw it all up- which was what happened to flight 93 somewhere in Pennsylvania..

    but I only say that in passing, we can agree to disagree on the particulars. The main and central point of all of this is that 911 has changed everything, and has changed everything for the worse, and has gotten tens of thousands of Americans maimed or buried, and millions of innocents the world over murdered, tortured, rendered homeless with their loved ones blown to bits or worse.

    It has been used to destroy country after country (that Israel wanted destroyed), and it has been used to subvert and abolish our sacred and codified Constitutional rights, and it is still being used today to arm and fund stone age sub-human head-slicers and rapists in order to destroy Syria (so Israel can steal the Golan Heights)

    It behooves all people of good will to speak out against such heinous and monstrous evil. We must condemn all of this in the most strident terms, and shame those who would run cover for the rotten scum who profit on murdered innocents, including men, women and children - 5000,000 of which were not sufficient enough for that Zionist, netherworld hag.

    Perhaps one day, if enough people come to understand what was done on that day, and by whom and why.. then perhaps we can begin to put the pieces back together, and find a way to bring those who were guilty of that singularly demonic crime to justice.

    peace
  126. I’ve looked into it and weighed the evidence, not the theories. The Truthers have won this argument. WTC Bld 7 is an obvious controlled demolition. One of Europe’s best demolition experts said so within 10 seconds after seeing it.

    The Two Towers were controlled demolition also. If you watch carefully, you will see they are being blown outward, not falling down. The lack of a 120 foot high rubble pile for each of the towers confirms this.

    The part Fred got right was that the Pentagon was hit by an airplane. It may have been under radio control, but it was most likely AA77.

    The undeniable part is that the Mainstream Media has been engaged in a cover-up concerning 911 for whatever reason. They were cheerleaders for the war in Iraq

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  127. @SolontoCroesus

    With that money they have purchased the media and entertainment industries, and thanks to crooks like Reagan and Clinton, they were able to take over most US media through consolidation. Then the music industry, and certainly entertainment/Hollywood, Wall Street, and finally US politics.
     
    Adjust your timeline a bit, TJM:


    from
    Capturing the German Eye: American Visual Propaganda in Occupied Germany by Cora Sol Goldstein

    During World War II, the U S government had also relied heavily on visual propaganda. In June 1942 the Roosevelt administration created the Office of War Information (OWI) to shape American public opinion and encourage prowar sentiments. The agency sought to explain the war to American civilians, to mobilize the home front, to increase morale, and to indoctrinate American soldiers .
    OWI believed that the easiest way to transmit propaganda effectively was through film, especially when spectators were unaware that they were being propagandized. Therefore, Hollywood was conscripted for the war effort.
    Under the guidance of the OWI, Hollywood produced feature films intended to educate, inspire, and entertain, and military training films to teach soldiers why they were fighting and how to fight.

    The relationship between the OWI and Hollywood amounted to a virtual merger between the state and the movie industry with the goal of shaping American public opinion.8
     
    At the time -- the late 1930s and 1940s -- Hollywood studios were run exclusively by Jews.
    Ronald Reagan got his start as an actor working as a war propagandist for Hollywood studios.

    Yes isn’t it interesting?!

    The Propaganda ministry in Germany during the same period was run entirely by “Aryans”, a race so much better at everything.

    On the Road to the Munich Conference of 1938

    Toward the end of their conference Chamberlain had extracted a promise from Hitler that he would take no military action until they had again conferred. In this period the Prime Minister had great confidence in the Fuehrer’s word, remarking privately a day or two later, ”In spite of the hardness and ruthlessness I thought I saw in his face, I got the impression that here was a man who could be relied upon when he had given his word.” [LOL]
    While the British leader was entertaining these comforting illusions Hitler went ahead with his military and political plans for the invasion of Czechoslovakia. Colonel Jodl, on behalf of OKW, worked out with the Propaganda Ministry what he described in his diary as ”joint preparations for refutation of our own violations of international law.” It was to be a rough war, at least on the part of the Germans, and Dr. Goebbels’ job was to justify Nazi excesses.

    Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich, Page 387.

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    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    On the Road to the Munich Conference of 1938...
     
    Sammy boy, will you please stop it with all this classic Zio Jewboy bullshit already? The year is not 1938. Really. You don't have to take my word for it. You can verify that for yourself.

    Also, the article and discussion has NOTHING to do with what was going on in 1938. Nothing. So STFU with this stuff, okay?

    I don't know if you have an inkling of just how sick and tired people get of all this stuff. Munich 1938 blah blah when it's got nothing to do with anything.

    Well, anyway, I can't waste too much time telling you off. In general, I make a point of not wasting much time with you.

    The central issue here, of course, is this scumbag shit eater Fred Reed. The only reason I replied to you was to point out that we should not be distracted from that central issue into this typical Zio jewboy Munich 1938 bullshit. They try all these games.... running interference...
  128. @The Scalpel
    @thealarmist listen, Emily Latella. Nobody cares that the building accellerated from rest to free fall speed. Everyone who ever took high school physics knows that. The point is that the whole building achieved free fall speed falling symmetrically. That is impossible for a collapse that occurred from assymmetrical damage. No, to do that for even 2 floors, the whole building had to come apart at once, i.e controlled demolition. The rest of your comments here seem equally uninformed and flippant.

    “The point is that the whole building achieved free fall speed falling symmetrically.”

    Well, it kind of looks like it fell symmetrically, but it kind of doesn’t. How many camera angles have you seen? I’ve seen only one, and it only shows me one facade, so I’m kind of winging it here. The failure was likely in the center of the building, with everything falling into it (due to gravity), so something roughly symmetric would not be out of this world. Your assertion that something appearing to fall symmetrically is not possible is itself an unreasonable assumption.

    I love how people assume that something is impossible in nature and then based on that false premise go on to construct a massive conspiracy. I’m with Fred … if this many people were involved, someone would have spilled the beans by now.

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    • Replies: @The Scalpel
    "How many camera angles have you seen, I have seen only one…"

    This is the kind of argument that is so harmful to a scientific inquiry into what happened. The argument goes something like this, "I don't know how it happened so it could not of happened. " I call this the argument from ignorance.

    It took me about one minute to google this 15 views of WTC seven collapse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnrnIdcC83k

    And while at it, I found this video of WTC seven explosions at various levels of the building which are difficult to explain based on a simple collapse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo7uqjxnuPo

    These are not an exclamation in themselves but they raise serious questions. What is the most likely explanation for these explosions? I don't know. But it doesn't mean that they didn't happen. The answer will take it serious scientific investigation. This is something that is never been done

    Once again, "massive conspiracy" is not necessary to explain controlled demolitions. That is a strawman argument. A small conspiracy among several insiders and a well compartmentalized operation is all that is necessary to explain it. Well compartmentalized intelligence and security operations are very common.

    Strawman arguments and arguments from ignorance serve to wear down the people who are truly looking for the truth. It is a testament to their perseverance that they have been so successful in raising doubts about the "official" conspiracy theory.
  129. @CanSpeccy

    The more the Truthers make me look into various aspect, like how the towers were supposed to fall in some direction other than straight down
     
    LOL

    A nice piece of mis-direction. If by Truthers, you mean intelligent people with a background in math, physics, engineering who have studied the evidence, then what they would have you look at (assuming they cared where someone so incapable of understanding the basic situation were to look) is not "how the towers were supposed to fall in some direction other than straight down", but how the towers were not supposed to fall at all.

    I realize it is utterly futile arguing with those who know nothing about the subject, care not to inform themselves of anything about the subject, and who yet wish to pontificate about the subject, but here are some basic realities you might try to assimilate, ruminate upon and use as a basis for revising your position of comfortable complacency.

    First, until 9/11, 2001, no steel frame highrise building anywhere in the world had collapsed due to fire, which might make a thoughtful person wonder if fire was perhaps not, as NIST proclaimed, the cause of the Towers collapsing.

    Second, for a highrise building to fall in its own footprint, it is necessary that all supporting columns, walls, beams, whatever give way simultaneously. Otherwise, the collapse will not be symmetrical. But it is impossible that fires would cause all supporting structures to give way simultaneously, even if fires in the three towers that collapsed on 9/11 were hot enough — which they were not — to cause failure in the support buildings' support columns.

    Third, not only did Building 7 fall in its own footprint at free-fall speed for 2.2 seconds, i.e., over a height equal to eight stories, indicating instantaneous, which is to say explosive, removal of all support columns, but its collapse was announced by in advance by the BBC, and furthermore, was described as having been "pulled" by the building's leasehold owner, Larry Silverstein, "pulled" being a term applied by building demolition specialists to the taking down of a building with explosives.

    But who's to say, ignorance is not bliss.

    “First, until 9/11, 2001, no steel frame highrise building anywhere in the world had collapsed due to fire, which might make a thoughtful person wonder if fire was perhaps not, as NIST proclaimed, the cause of the Towers collapsing.”

    Two things. First, nearly all such towers on fire (without sprinklers working) still had a serious firefighting effort at play. Second, can one ever conceive that maybe there was a flaw in the construction of this one building? That seems the more likely explanation.

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  130. You don’t know what happened that day Fred. I’m sure it was a false flag attack. I can’t prove it of course. You still got miles in you. Maybe you will live to learn the truth about 9/11. For now you are just wrong for your own reasons.

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  131. @Sam Shama
    Yes isn't it interesting?!

    The Propaganda ministry in Germany during the same period was run entirely by "Aryans", a race so much better at everything.

    On the Road to the Munich Conference of 1938


    Toward the end of their conference Chamberlain had extracted a promise from Hitler that he would take no military action until they had again conferred. In this period the Prime Minister had great confidence in the Fuehrer’s word, remarking privately a day or two later, ”In spite of the hardness and ruthlessness I thought I saw in his face, I got the impression that here was a man who could be relied upon when he had given his word.” [LOL]
    While the British leader was entertaining these comforting illusions Hitler went ahead with his military and political plans for the invasion of Czechoslovakia. Colonel Jodl, on behalf of OKW, worked out with the Propaganda Ministry what he described in his diary as ”joint preparations for refutation of our own violations of international law.” It was to be a rough war, at least on the part of the Germans, and Dr. Goebbels’ job was to justify Nazi excesses.

     

    Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich, Page 387.

    On the Road to the Munich Conference of 1938…

    Sammy boy, will you please stop it with all this classic Zio Jewboy bullshit already? The year is not 1938. Really. You don’t have to take my word for it. You can verify that for yourself.

    Also, the article and discussion has NOTHING to do with what was going on in 1938. Nothing. So STFU with this stuff, okay?

    I don’t know if you have an inkling of just how sick and tired people get of all this stuff. Munich 1938 blah blah when it’s got nothing to do with anything.

    Well, anyway, I can’t waste too much time telling you off. In general, I make a point of not wasting much time with you.

    The central issue here, of course, is this scumbag shit eater Fred Reed. The only reason I replied to you was to point out that we should not be distracted from that central issue into this typical Zio jewboy Munich 1938 bullshit. They try all these games…. running interference…

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Hey sewage amoeba Nazi-lover

    Tell your washed up Nazi "Aryan" pal S2C upthread who "hijacks" every thread, and to whom I was responding.

    You call Fed a shit-eater, oh you are sooooo upright and brave aren't you? Well Ron called you a "Conspiracy nut" and something even worse if you understood the meaning. So let's see you call Ron a shit eater.

    You are a damn delusional sociopath.
  132. @Rurik
    one last thing I should say

    on the day of 911, I was too much in shock to consider that the buildings were brought down by controlled demolition, even tho I remember thinking the whole thing was very strange

    then eventually I came to see it all for what it was; a false flag in order to get America to destroy several countries on Israel's behalf. (is what it is)

    but the point I want to make is that since then, most of the people I've communicated with about this event haven't given it much thought. They're too busy with their lives, and that's understandable.

    So that leaves the people who have given it some thought- and of the ones who still 'believe' the official story, I've found to be in several categories, but mainly the ones who're sincere, but hopelessly duped. And then the ones who know it was a lie and an inside job, but don't want that knowledge getting out there - perhaps because of their jobs or their sympathy to the Republican party or their sympathy for the idea of the American government as eternally 'good' or their sympathy for Zionism or their sympathy for "the Jews". Or a combination of all of the above.

    Reading Fred's egregious article, I confess I have no idea where on the spectrum Fred lies.

    Reading Fred’s egregious article, I confess I have no idea where on the spectrum Fred lies.

    I don’t think there is really any generous interpretation of this.

    In any case, you know, even if I were wrong, and Freddy boy really is stupid enough to believe all this shit and thus, is acting in good faith — who cares really? In a war, most of the people who die or get hurt are not themselves guilty of anything.

    If Freddy boy wants to go to rhetorical war, then he gets what he has coming. And if you go into battle unarmed — I mean in this case unarmed with any actual facts or arguments — then there is a certain inevitable result.

    What I really want to emphasize to you and others is there is absolutely no point in replying to this smarmy garbage from Freddy boy in any sort of measured polite way. You see, when they start all this stuff, like “you’re crazy, you’re a conspiracy theorist”, “tin foil hats nya nya” it’s this whole campaign to tar people who ask legitimate questions and who do real research into these questions as crazy. It’s “don’t listen to those people, they’re conspiracy theorists, that’s not respectable blah”.

    NO, the answer to these shit eaters like Freddy boy here has to be along the lines of “Dude, you’re a shit eater.”

    It’s nasty to call somebody a shit eater because it’s disgusting and you’re calling somebody a worm or a maggot. I know it’s not nice. But I have thought about it and I think it is the only proper counter-framing. Maybe not that term exactly necessarily, but something pretty nasty is quite warranted.

    You see, I am convinced that it is a losing strategy to try to respond to this kind of crap in a reasoned, polite, respectful manner. There has to be a tit-for-tat counter-framing. And once you have your counter-framing, you have to just keep hammering it relentlessly. That’s what this whole CIA/mockingbird inspired “conspiracy theorist” meme is about. They just keep hammering it. So I say we just keep hammering the shit eater meme.

    You see, on the other side of the debate, you have this very powerful propaganda machine, using all the techniques at their disposal to plant the idea in the public’s mind that asking questions about certain things is not respectable… oh, God forbid that somebody should think you are “conspiracy theorist” blah blah. Tin foil hats blah blah.

    Like, we need to turn the tables and say: NO, what is not respectable is to be a SHIT EATER. A shit eater is somebody who believes any absurd story because that’s what they told him on the TV. They throw the bullshit in your general direction and you go there and hungrily eat it up.

    THAT is what is not respectable, being a shit eater! And we really ought to push that meme. Another way to look at it is in the B.F. Skinner positive/negative reinforcement framework. They say “You’re a conspiracy theorist nya nya” and we just say “You’re a shit eater.” I mean, the “You’re a conspiracy theorist nya nya” is these people’s main rhetorical weapon. If you can neutralize that, they’re basically disarmed, so….

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    “tin foil hats nya nya”
     
    I absolutely see your point JR
    (and as always appreciate your vivid way of articulating it ; )

    it's just a difficult thing to be sure if a person is deliberately trying to obfuscate vs. if they're hopelessly and pathetically duped.

    I suspect you're right about Fred. But I only suspect it. And I also suspect that calling him a 'shit-eater' might alienate some otherwise skeptical people who like Fred (I confess to being a long running fan of Fred's prose and wit and unique perspective on things)

    IF, however, if it were to turn out that Fred does indeed know exactly what he's doing, and is doing it for ignoble reasons, (shekels, invitations to "respectable" cocktail parties), then I'm with you and Fred should bear the full brunt of the entire American people's collective and enthusiastic damnation.

    But that is a big IF, JR
  133. @Buzz Mohawk
    It would help if people realized that it was not even necessary for the towers to come down for the desired effect to be made.

    On this anniversary of that big show, I watched the event through again.

    (I witnessed the whole thing live from start to finish fifteen years ago, because my financial office had monitors always tuned to CNBC for our clients. CNBC is Wall-Street centric, so their coverage was closer and more raw than the other networks. We in our office had a front row seat from the moment a smoking hole appeared in the first tower.)

    What I noted more clearly this time is that the towers didn't even have to collapse for America to suddenly go on the war path. The made-for-TV spectacle already had its desired effect before anything fell.

    Jets with innocent passengers had smashed into icons filled with more victims. Fireworks ensued, followed by Towering Infernos. People jumped from the buildings to their death, on live TV as people screamed. Anchormen said America is now at war.

    Then the building came down. Icing on the cake. Didn't have to happen, and could not have been counted on by the perpetrators (without teams of co-conspirators carrying out the most unlikely and impossible to hide scheme).

    The collapses are irrelevant to the conspiracy, which I do believe is real.

    Inotherwords…you sawr throuugh the bs…

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  134. @Fred Reed
    A reader notes, correctly, that the missile pictured is a Harpoon. Being nearly blind, I asked my wife to to grab a photo from Google and, well, we screwed up. This proves I am part of the conspriacy as I am trying to protect the real Tomahawk.

    Ahh, Fred . Building 7 was not hit by anything.

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  135. @Cletus Rothschild
    Hmm . . . Fred can be tirelessly probing at times, such as his probing questions regarding evolution. But here he joins the chorus of ridicule of conspiracy theories. He's normally highly suspicious of government and military deceptions, but in this case, he joins in the ridicule even in light of the fact that the CIA is seemingly behind the conception of the very words "conspiracy theory".

    Let's face it: ridiculing conspiracy theories en masse is a very easy thing to do because there are a lot of nutjobs out there parroting them. But at the same time, it used to be a conspiracy theory that the US started the Vietnam War via the Gulf of Tonkin resolution. There are loads of examples of conspiracy theories that turned out to be true. It's funny: there's a reason why "conspiracy" is a word. It's because people conspire to do things. The DNC conspired to repress Sanders votes so that Clinton could win the nomination. The Bush administration conspired to peddle falsehoods to invade Iraq.

    Any sort of credible suspicion of malfeasance or even incompetence on 9/11 is collectively smeared as conspiracy theory along with the most outlandish of claims. We know enough about the aftermath to know that at the very least, the government has tried to whitewash what happened to cover up incompetence. That is a conspiracy to cover-up evidence to present a false narrative. The Commission chose to ignore certain narratives and they covered-up Saudi involvement, on whatever level it occurred.

    Reed gives us a cursory treatment of the claims that a missile took out the Pentagon, and about this claim, I agree with him. But because the claims about the missile are outlandish, he then uses that premise as evidence that controlled demolition is also outlandish. He uses information from ONE demolition company to support his claims while ignoring the information from many other companies, engineers, physicists, etc.

    Reed then uses the an absurd example of gaining access to the structures to plant bombs:

    "“We’re the exterminators, ma’am. We’ve had complaints of rats.”

    ”Oh. Are you going to do this to the entire building?”

    “Yes ma’am. Rats re devious creatures. If you don’t fight them on the lower floors, you have to fighter them on the upper floors. We have no choice.”"

    This is curious because, as I said before, Fred has a very probing mind. I find it odd that he doesn't consider the use of elevator work as a possibility. Why? There are loads of discussions about this.

    Nothing odd about it. Fred is a clown.

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  136. I first discovered Fred from finding his blog site while researching ex-pats who live in Mexico.

    I read some of his stuff and thought: he’s got some knowledge of Mexico, but he sure has some screws loose in his logic and knowledge of history and of many other issues.

    And I have found since then, that there are a lot of people like him down here, in Mexico: looney ex-pats who think that gubmint outta mah Medicare is a rational coherent policy for a 1st world nation (the US), and other such lunacies.

    I was intrigued to see Fred’s writings again when I discovered the Unz Review about a year ago. Most of the time there was a couple of tidbits of interesting info amongst the logical fallacies. The humor was kind of biting and cutting, not really funny, more rueful, like so many old ex-pats I know.

    But this piece is so utterly preposterous and free of fact, free of logic, it’s got to be one of the worst pieces of shit I have read in many a year.

    Anyone, including the numerous Fred sycophants in this comment thread, could spend 30 minutes viewing Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth and immediately understand that buildings don’t behave that way. Never have, never will. It’s physics.

    And an additional 45 minutes viewing the Pilots for Truth video (easily found on YouTube), would succeed in convincing even non-pilots that the goverment conspiracy theory about the planes is utterly false as well.

    So Fred (and his sycophants)haven’t taken even 90 minutes to view what thinking, experienced, professionals are saying about 9-11. Why?

    What would you call someone who got his mind made up before he’s ever listened to to a thing anyone says?

    An asshole? Probably. An idiot? Surely. A fool? Of course.

    But that’s Fred Reed. In the minority now in all polls done in America and the World. The majority believes this didn’t happen as the official conspiracy theory claims it did. And the reasons it isn’t believed are simple: the basic principles of physics and aeronautics do not support the official conspiracy theory.

    It is not possible for it to have happened that way.

    And that’s all you need to know for now. You can try to find out who did it and how it was done later, when there is an impartial investigation. Just because you can’t immediately figure out who did it and how they did it, has absolutely no relevance to the fact that it could not have happened the way the official conspiracy theorists say it did.

    Perhaps it’s too simple for a man like Fred to comprehend. I don’t know why and I don’t care anymore. Reed reveals himself to be a medieval moron with this article.

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    • Agree: Jonathan Revusky, Rurik
    • Replies: @Son of Dixie
    Well stated. It is obvious that the official account of events has gaping flaws in it. The buildings fell straight down - that doesn't happen randomly, and certainly wouldn't happen three times in one day. My wife has two PhDs in mechanical engineering and teaches at a prestigious university. I have had countless conversations with her colleagues regarding 911, all full Professors with decades of research under their belt, defense contracts ect. All of them have serious reservations about the government's official story. When I have asked why they don't speak out, the answer is career suicide and the immediate stoppage of grants, which is how most mechanical engineering Professors supplement the average salary paid by universities. I also remember on the morning of 911 that the police found Mohammad Attas' passport in the wreckage. The odds of that are almost amusing. It takes a fool like Fred to overlook details such as that.

    Fred is just an idiot, nothing more, nothing less. He writes stupid articles to agitate the readers here. It is his way of saying "f you" in a passive aggressive way. He certainly knows how to string a sentence together, and I think that is the only reason people actually take time to read his nonsensical ramblings.

    As far as I know Fred is married to an unfaithful Jewish Mexican woman that has Mexican children that Fred financially supports. I think that just about says all one needs to know about Mr. Reed.
  137. Hello mr Reed,

    You maybe one of America’s funniest and smartest columnists, but regarding 9/11 you have a lot to catch up with.

    So who did 9/11? Answer: Mossad + some help from Dick Cheney (stand down order).

    Quickest way to arrive at the real culprits? WTC7:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GY0yWXGaKs

    There is not a shadow of a doubt that around 17:00 pm somebody (Silverstein: “we decided to pull”) pushed a button to blow up the building, that was wired for controlled demolition long in advance, as you can’t wire a building for demolition in a few hours. WTC1/WTC2 was wired for demolition as well, as architects and engineers for 9/11 truth have made it abundantly clear:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwT34V3eGv8

    Now why would you embarrass yourself, wire WTC7 for demolition and push the button at 17:00? Answer: because something went wrong in the 9/11 scenario: F93 wasn’t intended at all to target Washington, but for WTC7. That’s the only logical explanation.

    Who owned WTC? Larry Silverstein. Once you accept that WTC was wired for demolition and you realize that you can’t wire a building for demolition without the owner and his security apparatus knowing about it, you can safely add Larry Silverstein to the small group of plotters behind 9/11.

    Who is Larry Silverstein? He was not just a real estate developer but well connected to the Israeli government as well, that is the commanders of the Mossad. He was most definitely not connected to or cooperating with Arab so-called terrorists.

    So you see, within a few lines we have arrived at the true culprits.

    https://wikispooks.com/wiki/9-11/Israel_did_it

    Why was 9/11 carried out? To create the terrorism meme and the excuse to invade countries in the Middle East at will, in casu Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Answering remaining questions. If it weren’t Arab hijackers, who then steered the planes? Only one possibility: remote control. How can you do that? By killing the crew (and passengers) using nerve gas and sending a new flight destination to the automatic pilot from the ground.

    Who was the one who came up with this idea? Dov Zakheim, the one who co-signed the PNAC document, calling for a “New Pearl Harbor”. The very same Dov Zakheim who was responsible for the missing Pentagon 2 trillion $ and who oversaw a group of comptrollers, who “by pure coincidence” all got killed by an explosion, attributed by F77.

    Btw, F77 didn’t hit the Pentagon. You wrongly claim that there are only three possibilities concerning the fate of F77: 1. didn’t exist 2. landed somewhere 3. hit the Pentagon. You missed a fourth possibility: it crashed into the Atlantic. Why did we never see real pictures of the crash, only these dubious hand full of frames? Why did the FBI in great panic confiscate all the camera footage? Because we weren’t supposed to see that footage. My explanation of the Pentagon: a real plane approaching the Pentagon and flying narrowly over it, followed by a missile.

    It is telling that you use the Pentagon case to make your point and omit WTC7, Architects and Engineers for 9/11 truth and the Pennsylvania scam; a child can tell that no plane crashed there: no wheels, no engines, no chairs, no corpses, no nothing. Only part of the debris crashed there. In reality the plane was shot down by a local commander who was not part of the plot, after a fighter pilot of the so-called “Happy Hooligan” squadron had reported to ground control that all people on board were dead. And since F93 had an unplanned delay of 43 minutes, the commander had observed on television what had happened in New York and took matters in his own hands and decided to order to have the plane shot down. So much for “Let’s Roll!”.

    And then there is Jerry Hauer, yet another Israeli, who immediately put the blame for 9/11 on bin Laden:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL7oNrieAqw

    And then there are these “dancing Israeli’s”… people who installed themselves on the board of the Hudson river well in advance and were celebrating the success of the operation. They were clearly in the know in advance:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMkX5uemLyk

    These were the Mossad agents who were responsible for the wiring of the WTC complex.

    http://www.mintpressnews.com/911-larry-silverstein-designed-new-wtc-7-one-year-attacks/214821/
    Silverstein had big plans with WTC one year in advance.

    Happy to be of service to you.

    Kind regards,
    Dutch

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  138. @CanSpeccy

    The flight 93 story is a fairy tale, it was clearly shot down by a US fighter jet.
     
    Nothing so important should be considered absolutely clear without careful consideration of all possibilities and all relevant evidence.

    We can be fairly certain that Flight 77 really did fly with real people on board. Passengers' names were published and my old school mate, the late Postman Patel, confirmed that one of the named passengers, a distant relative, was no longer at her place of work, the Georgetown University Hospital, and was presumed killed in the Crash of Flight 77.

    It is possible that Flight 77 was disposed of in some way other than flying it into the Pentagon, while the Pentagon was hit by a missile. But it is simpler to suppose that crew and passengers were knocked out with nerve gas while the plane was piloted remotely.

    Even simpler, I suppose, is to assume that 9/11 was Hani Hanjour's lucky day and the pilot who couldn't fly a single-engined Cessna 172 was inspired once at the controls of an airliner.

    But on the evidence available, I suggest that the public must leave open the question of what hit the Pentagon.

    There is, however, very good evidence now, that WTC7 did not collapse due to fire (see comment 39 above). Yet it was not hit by a plane. Moreover, it collapsed at free-fall speed for 2.25 seconds. So other than the use of pre-positioned explosives, what could account for its collapse?

    And if WTC7 was "pulled" (i.e., deliberately demolished) as Larry Silverstein the building's leasehold owner claimed, why not WTC 1 and 2?

    You are correct. Building 7′s collapse is very strange.

    There is so much else we are supposed to forget, the activities of the Israeli ‘art students’ beforehand, flying Saudi nationals out immediately after, much more.

    The advantageous stock market trading beforehand, I distinctly recall a statement that it was subject to investigation, but the investigation never happened.

    As you point out, the obscenely huge insurance payments to Silberstein (and Lowy).

    Cui bono?

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  139. @Jonathan Revusky

    On the Road to the Munich Conference of 1938...
     
    Sammy boy, will you please stop it with all this classic Zio Jewboy bullshit already? The year is not 1938. Really. You don't have to take my word for it. You can verify that for yourself.

    Also, the article and discussion has NOTHING to do with what was going on in 1938. Nothing. So STFU with this stuff, okay?

    I don't know if you have an inkling of just how sick and tired people get of all this stuff. Munich 1938 blah blah when it's got nothing to do with anything.

    Well, anyway, I can't waste too much time telling you off. In general, I make a point of not wasting much time with you.

    The central issue here, of course, is this scumbag shit eater Fred Reed. The only reason I replied to you was to point out that we should not be distracted from that central issue into this typical Zio jewboy Munich 1938 bullshit. They try all these games.... running interference...

    Hey sewage amoeba Nazi-lover

    Tell your washed up Nazi “Aryan” pal S2C upthread who “hijacks” every thread, and to whom I was responding.

    You call Fed a shit-eater, oh you are sooooo upright and brave aren’t you? Well Ron called you a “Conspiracy nut” and something even worse if you understood the meaning. So let’s see you call Ron a shit eater.

    You are a damn delusional sociopath.

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  140. Dear Fred,

    Please watch this interview carefully. What does your journalistic expertise tell you about it. Is this man credible? Was he an eye witness?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQrpLp-X0ws

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    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    Dear Fred,

    Please watch this interview carefully.
     

    I don't get the feeling Freddy boy is going to answer. I wanted to say that I just watched the video and the guy looks credible to me. I hadn't been aware of that guy, Rudy Dent, or this particular video. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

    I couldn't help but think: why couldn't that guy be our first Black President instead of....

  141. @The Alarmist

    "The point is that the whole building achieved free fall speed falling symmetrically."
     
    Well, it kind of looks like it fell symmetrically, but it kind of doesn't. How many camera angles have you seen? I've seen only one, and it only shows me one facade, so I'm kind of winging it here. The failure was likely in the center of the building, with everything falling into it (due to gravity), so something roughly symmetric would not be out of this world. Your assertion that something appearing to fall symmetrically is not possible is itself an unreasonable assumption.

    I love how people assume that something is impossible in nature and then based on that false premise go on to construct a massive conspiracy. I'm with Fred ... if this many people were involved, someone would have spilled the beans by now.

    “How many camera angles have you seen, I have seen only one…”

    This is the kind of argument that is so harmful to a scientific inquiry into what happened. The argument goes something like this, “I don’t know how it happened so it could not of happened. ” I call this the argument from ignorance.

    It took me about one minute to google this 15 views of WTC seven collapse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnrnIdcC83k

    And while at it, I found this video of WTC seven explosions at various levels of the building which are difficult to explain based on a simple collapse.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo7uqjxnuPo

    These are not an exclamation in themselves but they raise serious questions. What is the most likely explanation for these explosions? I don’t know. But it doesn’t mean that they didn’t happen. The answer will take it serious scientific investigation. This is something that is never been done

    Once again, “massive conspiracy” is not necessary to explain controlled demolitions. That is a strawman argument. A small conspiracy among several insiders and a well compartmentalized operation is all that is necessary to explain it. Well compartmentalized intelligence and security operations are very common.

    Strawman arguments and arguments from ignorance serve to wear down the people who are truly looking for the truth. It is a testament to their perseverance that they have been so successful in raising doubts about the “official” conspiracy theory.

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  142. @CanSpeccy
    There appears no way for America to return to constitutional government except via a counter coup. Trump, who speaks for the Constitution and the rule of law, is apparently engaged in an attempted counter-coup against the treasonous Republicrat duopoly.

    Hillary is floundering so badly, one begins to suspect that she working in league with Trump, and is attempting to throw the election. Bill's inane remarks, such as proposing that a hundred thousand or so Syrian refugees be settled in Detroit, a city imploding for lack of jobs, suggest that he is also part of the team.

    “There appears no way for America to return to constitutional government except via a counter coup.”

    We have constitutional government and the rule of law. It’s just that some people don’t like how it has been implemented.

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    • Replies: @Joe Franklin

    We have constitutional government and the rule of law. It’s just that some people don’t like how it has been implemented.

     

    Most federal judges regularly ignore the 9th and 10th amendment, and they pervert the 1st and 14th.

    14th didn't create any new civil rights, but you wouldn't know that fact by looking at previous federal court rulings.
  143. to be honest, just 1 simple fact calls the entire official story into question.

    the owner of the towers, larry silverstein, bought insurance just few months before 911.

    I don’t believe in coincidences when it involves 4.5 billion dollars.

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  144. @The Alarmist

    "There is, however, very good evidence now, that WTC7 did not collapse due to fire (see comment 39 above). Yet it was not hit by a plane. Moreover, it collapsed at free-fall speed for 2.25 seconds. So other than the use of pre-positioned explosives, what could account for its collapse?"
     
    Yeah, it actually collapsed in free fall for 2.25 seconds, but only after it spent the first 1.75 seconds of collapse accelerating from a resting position to free fall. After free fall, it then started to decelerate for the next 1.4 seconds as the falling structure impacted upon the lower structure.

    The key point here is that the building started out "at rest" and accelerated to a free fall stage, and that comports with how gravity works here on earth. Whether or not charges were used to take out the supporting structure or if the interior supporting structure simply failed cannot be determined from your observation that it was at some point in free fall. Even when you drop a building with charges, it does not immediately go into free fall.

    Here’s the response of physicist David Chandler, the person who compelled NIST to acknowledge the free-fall collapse of WTC 7:

    “In the case of a falling building, the only way it can go into free fall is if an external force removes the supporting structure. None of the gravitational potential energy of the building is available for this purpose, or it would slow the fall of the building. The fact of free fall by itself is strong evidence of explosive demolition, but the evidence of explosive demolition is even stronger than that.”

    “What is particularly striking is the suddenness of onset of free fall. Acceleration doesn’t build up gradually. The graph [measuring the building’s descent] simply turns a corner. The building went from [near] full support to zero support instantly.”

    “The onset of free fall was not only sudden, it extended across the whole width of the building… The fact the roof stayed level shows the building was in free fall across the entire width.”

    “The collapse we see cannot be due to a column failure, or a few column failures, or a sequence of column failures. All 24 interior columns and 58 perimeter columns had to have been removed over the span of 8 floors low in the building simultaneously to within a small fraction of a second, and in such a way that the top half of the building remains intact and uncrumpled.”

    To summarize: only explosives can instantaneously remove all support allowing the upper structure to accelerate downwards in free fall. Source

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  145. @John Jeremiah Smith

    then eventually I came to see it all for what it was; a false flag in order to get America to destroy several countries on Israel’s behalf. (is what it is)
     
    Precisely.

    Cui bono? Who stood to gain? Israel, foremost. Secondly, George W. Bush and his coterie of neocons.

    Who wanted to do the deed? Take your pick of any crew of whack-job Islamic radicals. Bin Laden is as good a choice as any other -- he had the profile and the funding.

    Who knew about it? Israeli intelligence, obviously. CIA, maybe (the CIA "intelligence" people I met in South America were not what one would term "intelligent"). Maybe Israel helped out the hijackers a bit by misdirecting US "intelligence". Israel despises America for being led by a gang of pussified namby-pambies capable of doing nothing but kissing Israeli butt and taking Israeli bribes.

    Hey John,

    Cui bono? Who stood to gain? Israel

    “it’s very good”

    Maybe Israel helped out the hijackers a bit by misdirecting US “intelligence”

    now John, I’m glad you bring this up, because you are obviously engaged with this issue in good faith, and so your intentions are clear and unassailable… (or at least so it seems to me)

    But this is the thing, we all have been glimmering the truth about that event in stages. First we come to the realization that is was a false flag, and then we go from there. Some of us are at the beginning stages and some of us have been at this for nearly fifteen years.

    What we all agree on, it that the official version is a pack of lies. Pure bullshit. Rather 911 was the worst kind of crime you can even imagine, because it was committed by the very people who are exalted to power and trusted to keep Americans safe, and it was done on behalf of America’s worst and most intractable enemy; International globalist/central bankster- Zionist supremacists-

    “I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies”

    ~ Thomas Jefferson

    - for whom we fought both world wars and for whom we are fighting in the Middle East.

    Anyways, once you come to terms with all this, then you start putting the pieces together.

    There are tones of minutia that should be sorted out in time. Perhaps much, or even most of it, we’ll never know. Just like who ordered the Kennedy assassination, or who assassinated Michael Hastings, or who sent the anthrax letters..

    But -IMHO- we should never allow all the minutia vis-a-vis 911 to become a distraction to the central issue – that they did it. Israel did 911 and elements at the highest levels of our government and media helped them. This, it seems to me at this point, is obvious.

    So, when it comes to little side issues like if there really were any actual “hijackers” or ‘terrorists’ on those planes or even if they were actually flying them, is all part of the avalanche of details that can be sorted out eventually. Today they’re just distractions to the big picture.

    Here on the UR it seems we’re not pilots or structural engineers or professionals per se. But rather we’re truth seekers and quasi-philosophers and generally interested in the big picture. So we should perhaps find some really good forum for the details of 911, (or the UR could perhaps set up running forums to discuss things like this [and other re-occurring themes like the Holocaust for instance], that often become distractions to the edifying enlightenments we all come here for)

    But anyways I say all of that because I just wanted to mention that there are a lot of ‘truthers’ who don’t believe for one second that those semi-literate, coke-snorting, titty bar frequenting, flight training dunderheads could have pulled off those maneuvers with those particular jets.

    no

    rather we more or less believe that the modified jets that hit the towers- (there are some who don’t even believe it was jets but something else entirely) – or whatever they were, were guided into the towers by remote control. Which would negate the necessity of having a dunderhead (who couldn’t fly a Cessna) fly them and possibly screw it all up- which was what happened to flight 93 somewhere in Pennsylvania..

    but I only say that in passing, we can agree to disagree on the particulars. The main and central point of all of this is that 911 has changed everything, and has changed everything for the worse, and has gotten tens of thousands of Americans maimed or buried, and millions of innocents the world over murdered, tortured, rendered homeless with their loved ones blown to bits or worse.

    It has been used to destroy country after country (that Israel wanted destroyed), and it has been used to subvert and abolish our sacred and codified Constitutional rights, and it is still being used today to arm and fund stone age sub-human head-slicers and rapists in order to destroy Syria (so Israel can steal the Golan Heights)

    It behooves all people of good will to speak out against such heinous and monstrous evil. We must condemn all of this in the most strident terms, and shame those who would run cover for the rotten scum who profit on murdered innocents, including men, women and children – 5000,000 of which were not sufficient enough for that Zionist, netherworld hag.

    Perhaps one day, if enough people come to understand what was done on that day, and by whom and why.. then perhaps we can begin to put the pieces back together, and find a way to bring those who were guilty of that singularly demonic crime to justice.

    peace

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    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith

    It has been used to destroy country after country (that Israel wanted destroyed), and it has been used to subvert and abolish our sacred and codified Constitutional rights, and it is still being used today to arm and fund stone age sub-human head-slicers and rapists in order to destroy Syria (so Israel can steal the Golan Heights)
     
    Having once held a pilot's license for several years, I am very much aware that a Saudi with 8 hours of lessons could fly a 767 into a teacup. But ... otherwise sensible people go apeshit with outrage and denial, so I won't. It's an irrelevant datum.

    Again, cui bono? IMO, by 2001, Israel had full control over the US government and banking system. The percentage of American national wealth held by dual-citizenship Israelis was more than sufficient to set policy, allocate funds, focus intelligence operations, direct undercover and/or "false flag" operations. That's been the CIA from the git-go -- Israel did not acquire 200 nuclear and thermonuclear weapons out of a clear blue sky. Don't be ridiculous -- all of Israel's military power is funded by working Americans (and lately, illegal mexicans).

    The situation is entirely out of control. There IS no American government, operated by and for Americans. Congress and SCOTUS have begun to do Israel's bidding without making any real attempt to conceal what's going on. If Garland is approved, there will be four Israelis on the US Supreme Court. FOUR of nine -- the rest being dumbshit robots of the RC church. That's incredible -- a stark violation of most Constitutional premises. We are faced with absolute and controlling corruption throughout all government agencies and processes.

    The USA is over, revolution should be imminent and inevitable, but Israeli control is so complete, and so ruthless, I wonder if they can actually keep it going indefinitely. Can wealth and power feed back in perpetuity? Could be.
    , @John Jeremiah Smith
    Rurik, my reply is being held by Moderation. This note may also be held. Dunno.
  146. @CanSpeccy
    Exactly.

    9/11 launched what in effect was a coup d'état.

    Remember it was George Dubya Bush who said:

    “If this were a dictatorship it would be a heck of a lot easier... as long as I'm the dictator. Hehehe.”

    And following 9/11 a dictator is what in effect G.W. Bush became: wars ad lib, extrajudicial killings of Americans and foreigners alike, rendition and torture of anyone assessed by some bureaucratic process to be a terrorist.

    But agree with Revusky too. Fred is crack-brained if he believes what he wrote, and a crook if he doesn't believe it.

    And following 9/11 a dictator is what in effect G.W. Bush became: wars ad lib, extrajudicial killings of Americans and foreigners alike, rendition and torture of anyone assessed by some bureaucratic process to be a terrorist.

    the staggering treason of a law like NDAA could only have been possible in the age of post-911 America

    every treasonous, POS politician who betrayed their sacred oath to uphold the Constitution- and then voted for the NDAA- deserves to hang by the neck

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  147. @Sam Shama

    Trump, who speaks for the Constitution and the rule of law, is apparently engaged in an attempted counter-coup against the treasonous Republicrat duopoly.
     
    I am voting Trump primarily for his economic plan. However, you can rest assured he is going to scale up massively, U.S. Military strength.

    Also, look for him to move U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem as agreed with Adelson. So counter coup'er he ain't. You can take that to the bank.

    you can rest assured he is going to scale up massively, U.S. Military strength.

    Also, look for him to move U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem as agreed with Adelson. So counter coup’er he ain’t. You can take that to the bank.

    As you know full well, your comment is totally irrelevant. But since the discussion is so totally futile, as indeed is, in my view, Fred’s article, indeed why not change the subject.

    It has occurred to me that Trump would build up the military, at least in numbers of soldiers, just to make an impact on the unemployment rate. I don’t know what it costs to hire a soldier and put him or her through some basic training, but I would have thought $50 billion a year would pay for a doubling in military manpower, a small price to pay, surely, for a one to two percent cut in the official unemployment rate.

    As for the embassy, I don’t really understand what’s involved. Wouldn’t you want the embassy wherever the Israeli government and foreign ministry is located? There is much more to the question, obviously. Maybe Trump can cut the Gordian knot.

    Here’s my idea. The Jews stole Palestine from the indigenous people. But they did it at the tail end of the era of European colonialism, when everyone who could was in the business of stealing other peoples’ countries. (The process of course continues with the Third World now taking over Europe and, with the aid of Hillary and Obama, the USA too).

    The problem for the Jews now is that the Palestinians are still in Palestine and still fighting for their rights, a struggle in which they deserve the support of all freedom loving people. So how to solve the problem? The solution, I suggest, is for the Jews to acknowledge the theft and, with their friends in the West, pay compensation.

    Specifically, I suggest that the US, Britain, etc. buy a few thousand square kilometers of Sinai from Egypt and settle the Palestinans there with billions and billions in aid to enable the construction of both a new Palestinian capital and a high tech, agricultural sector (dependent on solar power and seawater desalination).

    It might cost half a trillion dollars over say 25 years, a small amount, really, which even Israel alone could pay, although the US and others would surely accept most of the cost.

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I'll keep this short so as not to distract attention from the main topic. I was simply responding to your remark that Trump is the candidate to win back through a counter coup the "lost constitutional republic". Since many holding that radical opinion as you do - i.e those who feel our republic has been usurped by "Anglo Zionists"]- assume DT to be the knight on the white stallion, are likely to be disappointed. Here is what I reckon. Israel exerts wide influence on Washington, but she is by no means the only one. Furthermore her interests are local security and territory oriented; which while they may entail larger implications on select matters, is by no means the main concern of that nation. Cutting to the chase, DT has strong ties to Israel and Russia, and the relocation of the embassy to Jerusalem has enormous and potentially de-stabilising implications; something which I am opposed to.

    On your proposal on the Sinai, it sounds like an idea worth exploring.
  148. @Sam Shama
    Hey Rurik
    So if this was truly a planned false flag operation involving the highest echelons of our government [you've said this on multiple occasions] which involved the NSA and or other covert agencies plus foreign governments, there would have to be some secret documents somewhere. An operation of this magnitude cannot be planned by telepathy nor "meetings" without minutes etc. can it?

    So Snowden is of the opinion that our agencies simply made a hash of it by failing to act upon intelligence they had. Here is what he had to say:

    In response to a question from Williams concerning a “non-traditional enemy,” Al-Qaeda, and how to prevent further attacks from that organization and others, Snowden suggested that United States had the proper intelligence ahead of 9/11 but failed to act.

    You know, and this is a key question that the 9/11 Commission considered. And what they found, in the post-mortem, when they looked at all of the classified intelligence from all of the different intelligence agencies, they found that we had all of the information we needed as an intelligence community, as a classified sector, as the national defense of the United States to detect this plot,” Snowden said. “We actually had records of the phone calls from the United States and out. The CIA knew who these guys were. The problem was not that we weren’t collecting information, it wasn’t that we didn’t have enough dots, it wasn’t that we didn’t have a haystack, it was that we did not understand the haystack"

    “The problem with mass surveillance is that we’re piling more hay on a haystack we already don’t understand, and this is the haystack of the human lives of every American citizen in our country,” Snowden continued. “If these programs aren’t keeping us safe, and they’re making us miss connections — vital connections — on information we already have, if we’re taking resources away from traditional methods of investigation, from law enforcement operations that we know work, if we’re missing things like the Boston Marathon bombings where all of these mass surveillance systems, every domestic dragnet in the world didn’t reveal guys that the Russian intelligence service told us about by name, is that really the best way to protect our country? Or are we — are we trying to throw money at a magic solution that’s actually not just costing us our safety, but our rights and our way of life?

     
    https://www.rt.com/usa/162576-nbc-snowden-september-attack/

    If after 15 years, if all "Truther" positions are so compelling, engineers and architects having weighed in, all of it openly available on the internet, why isn't the government, which should have every motive to suppress it, using it's unsurpassed powers under the Patriot Act, NOT bothered at all about it. Why aren't the Silicon Valley libertarian plutocrats like Zuckerberg, Page, Brin etc. jumping on all this information to start investigations that could totally expose the lies?!!!

    Zuckerberg, Page, Brin etc. jumping on all this information to start investigations that could totally expose the lies?!!!

    if you had irrefutable proof that Israel had perpetrated 911, would you tell the world Sam?

    (that’s a rhetorical question ;)

    as for Snowden, I’ve always suspected that it was revelations regarding 911 that pushed him over the edge. He gave up everything a young man could possibly want.. money, power, prestige, perks galore, a back stage pass to all classified information, a beautiful home in Hawaii and a cute girlfriend. Everything. And he tossed it all away and risked being tortured to death at some CIA black site and his name eternally scourged as a modern day Benedict Arnold.

    whatever it was that motivated him to take that extremely drastic decision, I suspect was more soul-wrenching than ‘they’re reading your emails!’

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama

    if you had irrefutable proof that Israel had perpetrated 911, would you tell the world Sam?
     
    Yes, unequivocally. I am an American citizen and my loyalties are to this nation even though it would be a terrible realisation. However there is little in that regard that can even remotely be characterised as relevant data. You have the "Dancing Israelis" who apparently started videotaping prior to the impact. This is patent rubbish. What you have are the words of some middle aged woman who spotted them "dancing" as the towers were burning [much has been made about these dancing fellows, and interestingly, celebrations were in progress in many other areas around NJ, NY and the world over!] . So in fact she spotted them as the tower/towers were already burning. She did not see them arriving, setting up their equipment earlier, when nothing had happened. This was in the NYC police report. On Israeli TV [later also corroborated by the NYC police report] these fellows recounted their actions. They worked for a relocation company [which was surely a cover, and I suspect these guys were low level agents snooping in on local muslims] and having heard about the towers burning went back to their office [in Hoboken], picked up their camera equipment, and being rather familiar with the neighbourhood, found the right spot to get a good view of the unfolding disaster.

    They were also stupid; high-fiving because they caught on video what was surely an event to be recorded for the ages. btw, right across the Hudson from the WTC, many in the Newport NJ high-rises were videotaping, soon after the 8:15 impact.

    So this claim that Israeli involvement, complicit with the highest levels of the U.S. government and so many other actors who necessarily would have had to be involved, is an allegation which requires a very high level of evidentiary support, and that simply does not exist. Instead what we have is the usual blame placed on the default villains: Neocons and Israel. In fact, it seems that you were so ready to blame it all on the Jews, you enthusiastically swallowed Al Franken's satire on the "Jew Call" as truth! That I daresay, has to be a really, really open mind, which allows unhindered, the passage of satire, as cold, hard, fact! ;)

    Lastly, you ignored what Ed Snowden said. He spoke of wide ranging intel on an impending attack on the WTC [Mossad intimated FBI etc] or other high value targets by AQ, but the dots were never connected by our security agencies. This is what Snowden EXPLICITLY LAMENTED.

    All the same I am certainly no expert, and some things do appear rather odd to me [building 7]. So on the question of a blue ribbon investigation, I'd cast an 'aye' vote.
  149. @Jonathan Revusky

    Reading Fred’s egregious article, I confess I have no idea where on the spectrum Fred lies.
     
    I don't think there is really any generous interpretation of this.

    In any case, you know, even if I were wrong, and Freddy boy really is stupid enough to believe all this shit and thus, is acting in good faith -- who cares really? In a war, most of the people who die or get hurt are not themselves guilty of anything.

    If Freddy boy wants to go to rhetorical war, then he gets what he has coming. And if you go into battle unarmed -- I mean in this case unarmed with any actual facts or arguments -- then there is a certain inevitable result.

    What I really want to emphasize to you and others is there is absolutely no point in replying to this smarmy garbage from Freddy boy in any sort of measured polite way. You see, when they start all this stuff, like "you're crazy, you're a conspiracy theorist", "tin foil hats nya nya" it's this whole campaign to tar people who ask legitimate questions and who do real research into these questions as crazy. It's "don't listen to those people, they're conspiracy theorists, that's not respectable blah".

    NO, the answer to these shit eaters like Freddy boy here has to be along the lines of "Dude, you're a shit eater."

    It's nasty to call somebody a shit eater because it's disgusting and you're calling somebody a worm or a maggot. I know it's not nice. But I have thought about it and I think it is the only proper counter-framing. Maybe not that term exactly necessarily, but something pretty nasty is quite warranted.

    You see, I am convinced that it is a losing strategy to try to respond to this kind of crap in a reasoned, polite, respectful manner. There has to be a tit-for-tat counter-framing. And once you have your counter-framing, you have to just keep hammering it relentlessly. That's what this whole CIA/mockingbird inspired "conspiracy theorist" meme is about. They just keep hammering it. So I say we just keep hammering the shit eater meme.

    You see, on the other side of the debate, you have this very powerful propaganda machine, using all the techniques at their disposal to plant the idea in the public's mind that asking questions about certain things is not respectable... oh, God forbid that somebody should think you are "conspiracy theorist" blah blah. Tin foil hats blah blah.

    Like, we need to turn the tables and say: NO, what is not respectable is to be a SHIT EATER. A shit eater is somebody who believes any absurd story because that's what they told him on the TV. They throw the bullshit in your general direction and you go there and hungrily eat it up.

    THAT is what is not respectable, being a shit eater! And we really ought to push that meme. Another way to look at it is in the B.F. Skinner positive/negative reinforcement framework. They say "You're a conspiracy theorist nya nya" and we just say "You're a shit eater." I mean, the "You're a conspiracy theorist nya nya" is these people's main rhetorical weapon. If you can neutralize that, they're basically disarmed, so....

    “tin foil hats nya nya”

    I absolutely see your point JR
    (and as always appreciate your vivid way of articulating it ; )

    it’s just a difficult thing to be sure if a person is deliberately trying to obfuscate vs. if they’re hopelessly and pathetically duped.

    I suspect you’re right about Fred. But I only suspect it. And I also suspect that calling him a ‘shit-eater’ might alienate some otherwise skeptical people who like Fred (I confess to being a long running fan of Fred’s prose and wit and unique perspective on things)

    IF, however, if it were to turn out that Fred does indeed know exactly what he’s doing, and is doing it for ignoble reasons, (shekels, invitations to “respectable” cocktail parties), then I’m with you and Fred should bear the full brunt of the entire American people’s collective and enthusiastic damnation.

    But that is a big IF, JR

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    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    it’s just a difficult thing to be sure if a person is deliberately trying to obfuscate vs. if they’re hopelessly and pathetically duped.
     
    It barely matters, Rurik. The most generous interpretation of Fred's behavior is that he simply never researched the topic at all an hondestly believes the MSM framing of the issue -- i.e. that all the people who question the official story are nuts.

    In that most generous interpretation, it clearly means that Fred is an A-1-A shit eater because a shit eater is somebody who believes whatever the MSM tells him. The bullshit is tossed in their general direction and the shit eaters eat it up.

    So, when I call Fred Reed a shit eater, rather than a deliberate disinfo agent, I am already bending over backwards to find the most generous interpretation of his behavior.

    So, Fred Reed is, at the very least, a major league shit eater and there is simply no point in debating that at this point. The question then centers on whether we should openly say that or not, like maybe we have to find some softer euphemism to describe this. I actually think not. I think it is important to use such strong language at this point. It has to do with concepts of "linguistic programming" and framing and counter-framing.

    The real disinfo agents on the other side understand the power of this kind of linguistic programming and invent these terms like "conspiracy theorist" and the absurd image of the tin foil hat wearer which is the image associated with this article. And then they constantly repeat that shit. I am not an expert on these questions, but I do not believe that you can successfully counter this kind of linguistic programming via polite, reasoned discussion. You need a counter-framing.

    I say we call these people shit eaters. Somebody for whom the proof of the official story is the official story is a shit eater.

    I also suspect that calling him a ‘shit-eater’ might alienate some otherwise skeptical people who like Fred
     

    This actually is a key point that I have thought about a fair bit over the last few days. In fact, I suppose this reflects a sort of conventional wisdom, which is that the truth-oriented people, like you or myself and others here, absolutely MUST remain polite and it's a terrible error to cuss out a shit eater like Freddy boy. No, no, we have to be polite and pretend to respect this old fool and that this is a civilized, respectful debate.

    Of course, that is ridiculous, since it is clearly no longer a "civilized, respectful" debate (if it ever was) when somebody starts with this tin foil hats bullshit. That is very insulting and unfair and I say this not regarding myself. In fact, I'm thinking of other people, since I myself have not done any original research on 9/11 or any of these other deep events. To characterize people like David Ray Griffin or Richard Gage or any people who have worked on this as "tin foil hat wearers", especially when this comes from people who are not worthy to kiss the sole's of those people's feet -- this should be interpreted pretty much as a declaration of hostilities and that we are not in the realm of "civilized, respectful debate" any more.

    You see, in my view, what it comes down to finally is whether one is willing to be a sucker. To be a sucker is to accept more limited rules of engagement for yourself than what your opponent is subject to. For example, would you agree to get in a boxing ring with me if I was able to kick you in the nuts and stick you in the eye and so forth while you were obliged to fight according to the Marquess of Queensberry rules of gentlemanly fisticuffs?

    I assume that, framed that way, you say you would always decline to enter such a contest, right? But, okay, suppose you did and a few rounds in, I have repeatedly hit you below the belt, poked you in the eye, bitten a piece out of one your ears... and the whole while, you're there trying to engage in gentlemanly fisticuffs.... I mean, okay, it's an analogy, just imagine the scenario, right?

    Now, I put it to you that, for much of the crowd watching this, if you finally gave up on the gentlemanly fisticuffs and got in a good kick in the nuts against me, the crowd would roar with approval. It would finally be heartening to see you stop being such a sucker and fight fire with fire. Certainly, the people on your side watching this would pump their fists in the air and say: "YEAH!"

    So, you see, it is very hard to know how lurkers react to things, but my guess is that, actually, there is a sizeable group of people who take heart in my approach. They just get sick of the people on the Truth side of the debate getting suckered into this "polite, civilized" debate sort of proposition when the other side is using every illegitimate tactic there is.


    IF, however, if it were to turn out that Fred does indeed know exactly what he’s doing, and is doing it for ignoble reasons,
     
    Well, I don't think this is all that relevant really. We can never resolve what is going on in Fred's mind, his motives etcetera, anyway. The issue is not Fred Reed per se. The issue is that this kind of "conspiracy theory, tin foil hats" twaddle really requires a counter-framing and when they start with this crap about "you're a conspiracy theorist, nya nya, where's your tin foil hat", we need a pretty damned nasty counter-framing. I think "shit eater" looks appropriate but I would be open to alternative suggestions. Also, who says we have to have just one counter-frame, we can have a set of these counter-frames available. We should discuss the counters, the linguistic programming or framing that we will use.
  150. I’m not personally sure whether there was a conspiracy on 9-11 or not. But your approach to that controversy is not likely to sway anyone that there’s nothing to see here.

    Three buildings free fall, only two of which were actually struck. Seems unlikely that all three would collapse in the manner they did, but all three in exactly the same way, at the same speed?I had the misfortune of seeing up close and personal a jetliner crash similar to 93. It looked nothing like the site in somerset county. Nobody doubts that a jetliner crashed into the pentagon, but it seems rather amazing that a novice pilot could maneuver a jetliner thru the maze of suburban buildings in DC to hit the side of a four story building. I could go on.

    If your going to discuss this in a factual manner people will give you a hearing. But your smartass “discussion” of these issues will convince no one.

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    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    Nobody doubts that a jetliner crashed into the pentagon, but
     
    Uhh, actually, plenty of people doubt it... For very good reasons.
  151. @CanSpeccy

    you can rest assured he is going to scale up massively, U.S. Military strength.

    Also, look for him to move U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem as agreed with Adelson. So counter coup’er he ain’t. You can take that to the bank.
     

    As you know full well, your comment is totally irrelevant. But since the discussion is so totally futile, as indeed is, in my view, Fred's article, indeed why not change the subject.

    It has occurred to me that Trump would build up the military, at least in numbers of soldiers, just to make an impact on the unemployment rate. I don't know what it costs to hire a soldier and put him or her through some basic training, but I would have thought $50 billion a year would pay for a doubling in military manpower, a small price to pay, surely, for a one to two percent cut in the official unemployment rate.

    As for the embassy, I don't really understand what's involved. Wouldn't you want the embassy wherever the Israeli government and foreign ministry is located? There is much more to the question, obviously. Maybe Trump can cut the Gordian knot.

    Here's my idea. The Jews stole Palestine from the indigenous people. But they did it at the tail end of the era of European colonialism, when everyone who could was in the business of stealing other peoples' countries. (The process of course continues with the Third World now taking over Europe and, with the aid of Hillary and Obama, the USA too).

    The problem for the Jews now is that the Palestinians are still in Palestine and still fighting for their rights, a struggle in which they deserve the support of all freedom loving people. So how to solve the problem? The solution, I suggest, is for the Jews to acknowledge the theft and, with their friends in the West, pay compensation.

    Specifically, I suggest that the US, Britain, etc. buy a few thousand square kilometers of Sinai from Egypt and settle the Palestinans there with billions and billions in aid to enable the construction of both a new Palestinian capital and a high tech, agricultural sector (dependent on solar power and seawater desalination).

    It might cost half a trillion dollars over say 25 years, a small amount, really, which even Israel alone could pay, although the US and others would surely accept most of the cost.

    I’ll keep this short so as not to distract attention from the main topic. I was simply responding to your remark that Trump is the candidate to win back through a counter coup the “lost constitutional republic”. Since many holding that radical opinion as you do – i.e those who feel our republic has been usurped by “Anglo Zionists”]- assume DT to be the knight on the white stallion, are likely to be disappointed. Here is what I reckon. Israel exerts wide influence on Washington, but she is by no means the only one. Furthermore her interests are local security and territory oriented; which while they may entail larger implications on select matters, is by no means the main concern of that nation. Cutting to the chase, DT has strong ties to Israel and Russia, and the relocation of the embassy to Jerusalem has enormous and potentially de-stabilising implications; something which I am opposed to.

    On your proposal on the Sinai, it sounds like an idea worth exploring.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    Re: "those who feel our republic has been usurped by “Anglo Zionists” [who] assume DT to be the knight on the white stallion, are likely to be disappointed."

    I actually think Donald Trump is an appalling candidate, just less appalling than Hillary. So, no, unless he actually blows up the world, I probably won't be disappointed, at least not especially so.

    As for Anglo-Zionists, I'm not reallysure who these people are. What I understand, however, is that the London-New York based money power is partly Anglo and partly Jewish and that it is fundamentally globalist. Where Israeli Jews and their Anglo-American supporters, i.e., Zionists, relate to this Money Power group, if they do at all, I am not aware.

    What I will find disappointing in Trump, if he is elected, is if he fails to live up to his Americanism versus globalism rhetoric.

    Interesting that you attach such significance to the moving of the embassy. Would be interested to know why this matters, but I agree it's totally off topic so perhaps best left to another time.

    To bring the discussion back to the topic, my interpretation of what DT has said about 9/11 is that (a) he is in no doubt that it was in some way or other an inside job, though there may have been an Israeli role (i.e., provision of technical services, but all US Gov't approved), plus some terrorist dupes, and (b) if President, he will keep the lid on because the truth would tear the country apart.

    I believe, also, that 9/11 had to be a bi-partisan inside job, hence Bill Clinton's angry finger wagging at a 9/11 Truther, so reminiscent of his angry finger wagging over not having sexual relations with that woman.

  152. @Rurik
    Hey John,

    Cui bono? Who stood to gain? Israel
     
    "it's very good"

    Maybe Israel helped out the hijackers a bit by misdirecting US “intelligence”
     
    now John, I'm glad you bring this up, because you are obviously engaged with this issue in good faith, and so your intentions are clear and unassailable... (or at least so it seems to me)

    But this is the thing, we all have been glimmering the truth about that event in stages. First we come to the realization that is was a false flag, and then we go from there. Some of us are at the beginning stages and some of us have been at this for nearly fifteen years.

    What we all agree on, it that the official version is a pack of lies. Pure bullshit. Rather 911 was the worst kind of crime you can even imagine, because it was committed by the very people who are exalted to power and trusted to keep Americans safe, and it was done on behalf of America's worst and most intractable enemy; International globalist/central bankster- Zionist supremacists-

    "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies"

    ~ Thomas Jefferson

    - for whom we fought both world wars and for whom we are fighting in the Middle East.

    Anyways, once you come to terms with all this, then you start putting the pieces together.

    There are tones of minutia that should be sorted out in time. Perhaps much, or even most of it, we'll never know. Just like who ordered the Kennedy assassination, or who assassinated Michael Hastings, or who sent the anthrax letters..

    But -IMHO- we should never allow all the minutia vis-a-vis 911 to become a distraction to the central issue - that they did it. Israel did 911 and elements at the highest levels of our government and media helped them. This, it seems to me at this point, is obvious.

    So, when it comes to little side issues like if there really were any actual "hijackers" or 'terrorists' on those planes or even if they were actually flying them, is all part of the avalanche of details that can be sorted out eventually. Today they're just distractions to the big picture.

    Here on the UR it seems we're not pilots or structural engineers or professionals per se. But rather we're truth seekers and quasi-philosophers and generally interested in the big picture. So we should perhaps find some really good forum for the details of 911, (or the UR could perhaps set up running forums to discuss things like this [and other re-occurring themes like the Holocaust for instance], that often become distractions to the edifying enlightenments we all come here for)

    But anyways I say all of that because I just wanted to mention that there are a lot of 'truthers' who don't believe for one second that those semi-literate, coke-snorting, titty bar frequenting, flight training dunderheads could have pulled off those maneuvers with those particular jets.

    no

    rather we more or less believe that the modified jets that hit the towers- (there are some who don't even believe it was jets but something else entirely) - or whatever they were, were guided into the towers by remote control. Which would negate the necessity of having a dunderhead (who couldn't fly a Cessna) fly them and possibly screw it all up- which was what happened to flight 93 somewhere in Pennsylvania..

    but I only say that in passing, we can agree to disagree on the particulars. The main and central point of all of this is that 911 has changed everything, and has changed everything for the worse, and has gotten tens of thousands of Americans maimed or buried, and millions of innocents the world over murdered, tortured, rendered homeless with their loved ones blown to bits or worse.

    It has been used to destroy country after country (that Israel wanted destroyed), and it has been used to subvert and abolish our sacred and codified Constitutional rights, and it is still being used today to arm and fund stone age sub-human head-slicers and rapists in order to destroy Syria (so Israel can steal the Golan Heights)

    It behooves all people of good will to speak out against such heinous and monstrous evil. We must condemn all of this in the most strident terms, and shame those who would run cover for the rotten scum who profit on murdered innocents, including men, women and children - 5000,000 of which were not sufficient enough for that Zionist, netherworld hag.

    Perhaps one day, if enough people come to understand what was done on that day, and by whom and why.. then perhaps we can begin to put the pieces back together, and find a way to bring those who were guilty of that singularly demonic crime to justice.

    peace

    It has been used to destroy country after country (that Israel wanted destroyed), and it has been used to subvert and abolish our sacred and codified Constitutional rights, and it is still being used today to arm and fund stone age sub-human head-slicers and rapists in order to destroy Syria (so Israel can steal the Golan Heights)

    Having once held a pilot’s license for several years, I am very much aware that a Saudi with 8 hours of lessons could fly a 767 into a teacup. But … otherwise sensible people go apeshit with outrage and denial, so I won’t. It’s an irrelevant datum.

    Again, cui bono? IMO, by 2001, Israel had full control over the US government and banking system. The percentage of American national wealth held by dual-citizenship Israelis was more than sufficient to set policy, allocate funds, focus intelligence operations, direct undercover and/or “false flag” operations. That’s been the CIA from the git-go — Israel did not acquire 200 nuclear and thermonuclear weapons out of a clear blue sky. Don’t be ridiculous — all of Israel’s military power is funded by working Americans (and lately, illegal mexicans).

    The situation is entirely out of control. There IS no American government, operated by and for Americans. Congress and SCOTUS have begun to do Israel’s bidding without making any real attempt to conceal what’s going on. If Garland is approved, there will be four Israelis on the US Supreme Court. FOUR of nine — the rest being dumbshit robots of the RC church. That’s incredible — a stark violation of most Constitutional premises. We are faced with absolute and controlling corruption throughout all government agencies and processes.

    The USA is over, revolution should be imminent and inevitable, but Israeli control is so complete, and so ruthless, I wonder if they can actually keep it going indefinitely. Can wealth and power feed back in perpetuity? Could be.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    Can wealth and power feed back in perpetuity?
     
    yes it could, but it won't

    they would be able to live "off the fat of the land" (usury and assorted Wall Street swindles and federal government tributes in the billions) for perpetuity, but they simply can't stand to see the hated goyim thrive and be happy. It drives them nuts. So they always set about doing a 'frog and scorpion' thing and it always causes the nice set up to come crashing down
    , @Jonathan Revusky

    Having once held a pilot’s license for several years,
     
    Out of curiosity, where did you get your pilot's license?
    , @edNels

    Having once held a pilot’s license for several years, I am very much aware that a Saudi with 8 hours of lessons could fly a 767 into a teacup. But … otherwise sensible people go apeshit with outrage and denial, so I won’t. It’s an irrelevant datum.
     
    I just don't believe that comment JJ. Especially that there was really good areonics involved...some say that the airplanes/jets... wouldn't even be capable of the manuevers to get to the targets (Inparticluar the pentagon)

    You know, me Idon'tknow jack about fiyin' I did takea course up in Oregon to fly a little plane... seemed pretty simple to me...
  153. @Sam Shama
    I'll keep this short so as not to distract attention from the main topic. I was simply responding to your remark that Trump is the candidate to win back through a counter coup the "lost constitutional republic". Since many holding that radical opinion as you do - i.e those who feel our republic has been usurped by "Anglo Zionists"]- assume DT to be the knight on the white stallion, are likely to be disappointed. Here is what I reckon. Israel exerts wide influence on Washington, but she is by no means the only one. Furthermore her interests are local security and territory oriented; which while they may entail larger implications on select matters, is by no means the main concern of that nation. Cutting to the chase, DT has strong ties to Israel and Russia, and the relocation of the embassy to Jerusalem has enormous and potentially de-stabilising implications; something which I am opposed to.

    On your proposal on the Sinai, it sounds like an idea worth exploring.

    Re: “those who feel our republic has been usurped by “Anglo Zionists” [who] assume DT to be the knight on the white stallion, are likely to be disappointed.”

    I actually think Donald Trump is an appalling candidate, just less appalling than Hillary. So, no, unless he actually blows up the world, I probably won’t be disappointed, at least not especially so.

    As for Anglo-Zionists, I’m not reallysure who these people are. What I understand, however, is that the London-New York based money power is partly Anglo and partly Jewish and that it is fundamentally globalist. Where Israeli Jews and their Anglo-American supporters, i.e., Zionists, relate to this Money Power group, if they do at all, I am not aware.

    What I will find disappointing in Trump, if he is elected, is if he fails to live up to his Americanism versus globalism rhetoric.

    Interesting that you attach such significance to the moving of the embassy. Would be interested to know why this matters, but I agree it’s totally off topic so perhaps best left to another time.

    To bring the discussion back to the topic, my interpretation of what DT has said about 9/11 is that (a) he is in no doubt that it was in some way or other an inside job, though there may have been an Israeli role (i.e., provision of technical services, but all US Gov’t approved), plus some terrorist dupes, and (b) if President, he will keep the lid on because the truth would tear the country apart.

    I believe, also, that 9/11 had to be a bi-partisan inside job, hence Bill Clinton’s angry finger wagging at a 9/11 Truther, so reminiscent of his angry finger wagging over not having sexual relations with that woman.

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama

    I actually think Donald Trump is an appalling candidate, just less appalling than Hillary. So, no, unless he actually blows up the world, I probably won’t be disappointed, at least not especially so.

    As for Anglo-Zionists, I’m not really sure who these people are. What I understand, however, is that the London-New York based money power is partly Anglo and partly Jewish and that it is fundamentally globalist. Where Israeli Jews and their Anglo-American supporters, i.e., Zionists, relate to this Money Power group, if they do at all, I am not aware.

    What I will find disappointing in Trump, if he is elected, is if he fails to live up to his Americanism versus globalism rhetoric.
     
    I'll address each point.



    Trump is indeed appalling in the sense that he is an unequalled narcissist, lives his life in a tenuous relationship with even the starkest of truths, runs his own company in a manner which if it were a publicly traded, would simply go bankrupt - as indeed it had, when he simply started franchising the name and greatly benefitted from the real-estate boom on his very early assets on Wall Street and Madison Avenue. More on this on the 3rd point. I cannot say how much more or less unappealing a candidate he is compared to Hill, but I expet he is not afraid of debt financing and likely to unleash sustained infrastructure spending; thus my vote.

    Anglo-Zionists. Well perhaps going East to West, with the collaboration of Tokyo and Seoul, Hong Kong-Sidney-London-New York is the arc of HMG's historical financial endeavour. It had, and continues to, function, as the main originator and channeler of global capital flows. Brussels-Berlin-Rome-Paris in that order, basically act on occasion as rearguard, but more realistically as an allied independent hub. I've looked into the Jewish prominence in these structures and haven't really come up with anything that I can categorically quantify. Modern economies function on smoothly functioning credit, and on this date I cannot analytically think of a better substitute. The role of Beijing is surely something to be looked forward to, however that won't happen until the RMB functions without the implicit peg. Again, obviously old banking houses of the Empire, including Jewish names are prominent if one goes about looking for them specifically, but nothing I can quantify. So this talk of "dual citizens controlling finance in U.S." is mostly melodrama. Let me generalise at the risk of sounding ridiculous, but Jews are by nature busybodies [like Anglos] which often leads to their assuming positions of responsibility. Do some of them get weighed down by hubris that inevitably accompanies power? Certainly.

    Trump on Americanism vs. Globalism: He is simply saying what he needs in order to capitalise on the current wave of nationalism that is sweeping the globe. His actions all his life are indicative of the polar opposite. If you take a roster of his advisors: John Paulson, Tom Barrack, Steve Mnuchin, Steve Roth, Harold Hamm, Andrew Beal, Howard Lorber, David Malpass [only professional Keynesian economist] are all from the hedge fund world, big oil and big tobacco. All of them super globalists. Where do you reckon their financial interests lie? I've in the past looked at Trump's finances in connection with a high yield offering and I'll simply note they do not allow much independent manoeuvreability. So on the Americanism bit, I am willing to bet he is going to bs all the way.

    He also has a pally relationship with Netanyahu [different class altogether compared to Obama] and in collaboration with Israeli investors DT is looking to invest with the Ambanis in the hotel business in India.

    So basically it is an unique situation, one which this nation never faced in the past: a choice between an entrenched political family which enriched itself via the political apparatus and a self-absorbed businessman who in part, enriched himself by buying access to that political apparatus.

    Still I hope he unleashes fiscal action and refrains from Star Wars.
  154. @Rurik
    Hey John,

    Cui bono? Who stood to gain? Israel
     
    "it's very good"

    Maybe Israel helped out the hijackers a bit by misdirecting US “intelligence”
     
    now John, I'm glad you bring this up, because you are obviously engaged with this issue in good faith, and so your intentions are clear and unassailable... (or at least so it seems to me)

    But this is the thing, we all have been glimmering the truth about that event in stages. First we come to the realization that is was a false flag, and then we go from there. Some of us are at the beginning stages and some of us have been at this for nearly fifteen years.

    What we all agree on, it that the official version is a pack of lies. Pure bullshit. Rather 911 was the worst kind of crime you can even imagine, because it was committed by the very people who are exalted to power and trusted to keep Americans safe, and it was done on behalf of America's worst and most intractable enemy; International globalist/central bankster- Zionist supremacists-

    "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies"

    ~ Thomas Jefferson

    - for whom we fought both world wars and for whom we are fighting in the Middle East.

    Anyways, once you come to terms with all this, then you start putting the pieces together.

    There are tones of minutia that should be sorted out in time. Perhaps much, or even most of it, we'll never know. Just like who ordered the Kennedy assassination, or who assassinated Michael Hastings, or who sent the anthrax letters..

    But -IMHO- we should never allow all the minutia vis-a-vis 911 to become a distraction to the central issue - that they did it. Israel did 911 and elements at the highest levels of our government and media helped them. This, it seems to me at this point, is obvious.

    So, when it comes to little side issues like if there really were any actual "hijackers" or 'terrorists' on those planes or even if they were actually flying them, is all part of the avalanche of details that can be sorted out eventually. Today they're just distractions to the big picture.

    Here on the UR it seems we're not pilots or structural engineers or professionals per se. But rather we're truth seekers and quasi-philosophers and generally interested in the big picture. So we should perhaps find some really good forum for the details of 911, (or the UR could perhaps set up running forums to discuss things like this [and other re-occurring themes like the Holocaust for instance], that often become distractions to the edifying enlightenments we all come here for)

    But anyways I say all of that because I just wanted to mention that there are a lot of 'truthers' who don't believe for one second that those semi-literate, coke-snorting, titty bar frequenting, flight training dunderheads could have pulled off those maneuvers with those particular jets.

    no

    rather we more or less believe that the modified jets that hit the towers- (there are some who don't even believe it was jets but something else entirely) - or whatever they were, were guided into the towers by remote control. Which would negate the necessity of having a dunderhead (who couldn't fly a Cessna) fly them and possibly screw it all up- which was what happened to flight 93 somewhere in Pennsylvania..

    but I only say that in passing, we can agree to disagree on the particulars. The main and central point of all of this is that 911 has changed everything, and has changed everything for the worse, and has gotten tens of thousands of Americans maimed or buried, and millions of innocents the world over murdered, tortured, rendered homeless with their loved ones blown to bits or worse.

    It has been used to destroy country after country (that Israel wanted destroyed), and it has been used to subvert and abolish our sacred and codified Constitutional rights, and it is still being used today to arm and fund stone age sub-human head-slicers and rapists in order to destroy Syria (so Israel can steal the Golan Heights)

    It behooves all people of good will to speak out against such heinous and monstrous evil. We must condemn all of this in the most strident terms, and shame those who would run cover for the rotten scum who profit on murdered innocents, including men, women and children - 5000,000 of which were not sufficient enough for that Zionist, netherworld hag.

    Perhaps one day, if enough people come to understand what was done on that day, and by whom and why.. then perhaps we can begin to put the pieces back together, and find a way to bring those who were guilty of that singularly demonic crime to justice.

    peace

    Rurik, my reply is being held by Moderation. This note may also be held. Dunno.

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  155. @Rurik

    Zuckerberg, Page, Brin etc. jumping on all this information to start investigations that could totally expose the lies?!!!
     
    if you had irrefutable proof that Israel had perpetrated 911, would you tell the world Sam?

    (that's a rhetorical question ;)

    as for Snowden, I've always suspected that it was revelations regarding 911 that pushed him over the edge. He gave up everything a young man could possibly want.. money, power, prestige, perks galore, a back stage pass to all classified information, a beautiful home in Hawaii and a cute girlfriend. Everything. And he tossed it all away and risked being tortured to death at some CIA black site and his name eternally scourged as a modern day Benedict Arnold.

    whatever it was that motivated him to take that extremely drastic decision, I suspect was more soul-wrenching than 'they're reading your emails!'

    if you had irrefutable proof that Israel had perpetrated 911, would you tell the world Sam?

    Yes, unequivocally. I am an American citizen and my loyalties are to this nation even though it would be a terrible realisation. However there is little in that regard that can even remotely be characterised as relevant data. You have the “Dancing Israelis” who apparently started videotaping prior to the impact. This is patent rubbish. What you have are the words of some middle aged woman who spotted them “dancing” as the towers were burning [much has been made about these dancing fellows, and interestingly, celebrations were in progress in many other areas around NJ, NY and the world over!] . So in fact she spotted them as the tower/towers were already burning. She did not see them arriving, setting up their equipment earlier, when nothing had happened. This was in the NYC police report. On Israeli TV [later also corroborated by the NYC police report] these fellows recounted their actions. They worked for a relocation company [which was surely a cover, and I suspect these guys were low level agents snooping in on local muslims] and having heard about the towers burning went back to their office [in Hoboken], picked up their camera equipment, and being rather familiar with the neighbourhood, found the right spot to get a good view of the unfolding disaster.

    They were also stupid; high-fiving because they caught on video what was surely an event to be recorded for the ages. btw, right across the Hudson from the WTC, many in the Newport NJ high-rises were videotaping, soon after the 8:15 impact.

    So this claim that Israeli involvement, complicit with the highest levels of the U.S. government and so many other actors who necessarily would have had to be involved, is an allegation which requires a very high level of evidentiary support, and that simply does not exist. Instead what we have is the usual blame placed on the default villains: Neocons and Israel. In fact, it seems that you were so ready to blame it all on the Jews, you enthusiastically swallowed Al Franken’s satire on the “Jew Call” as truth! That I daresay, has to be a really, really open mind, which allows unhindered, the passage of satire, as cold, hard, fact! ;)

    Lastly, you ignored what Ed Snowden said. He spoke of wide ranging intel on an impending attack on the WTC [Mossad intimated FBI etc] or other high value targets by AQ, but the dots were never connected by our security agencies. This is what Snowden EXPLICITLY LAMENTED.

    All the same I am certainly no expert, and some things do appear rather odd to me [building 7]. So on the question of a blue ribbon investigation, I’d cast an ‘aye’ vote.

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    • Replies: @Rurik
    Sam, Sam, Sam..

    just couldn't resist the taste of wet excrement in the afternoon, eh?

    use a napkin for crying out loud!

    OK, that covers the Al Franken thing; where he did say he got forewarned and he has not since recanted it, and there are very few people -who don't actually consume feces- that considered it sarcasm.

    (I confess it pains me to see you wallowing around in the septic tank with your buddy Boris-the shit eater Sam. I've often mistaken you as being above such bilge)

    also, as was mentioned during the same conversation, it has turned out that anywhere from 1 to 5 Israelis died on 911. And the one might have been the Israeli that was known to be on 0ne of the planes. Which would mean that there might have been zero Israelis who died in the WTC on that day. Whereas there were 15 citizens of Trinidad that died in the towers on 911, as well as hundreds of Brits and other foreign nationals who perished, which make an honest person wonder why there were so few Israelis there on that day. Don't you wonder Sam how that could be? I mean the WTC was in the center of the Jewish owned financial capital of the world. The owner of the complex, Larry Silverstein was known to speak with the Israeli president Bibi on a weekly basis. Those are some very direct ties between those Jews in NYC and Jews in Tel Aviv, and yet only a tiny handful, if any, died on that day. Do you ever wonder if there were other Israelis besides the Mossad agents- who were there to "document the event", who might have warned other Israelis not to go anywhere near the WTC on that day? Eh Sam? And yet allowed thousands of American (including Jews) to get slaughtered?

    Which brings us to the question of those "dancing Israelis"

    If they went on Israeli television, and told everyone that they were there to 'document the event', well then Sam, doesn't that imply that they must have known what was going to happen?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI5wTgEHNok

    and if they were just some dudes who happened to have noticed something unusual and video taped it, then why did the FBI hold them in custody for months?

    Surely Sam, if they were just innocent schmos, why would they be held at all? A simple interview and the explanation you just gave, and they'd be on their way. And yet they were held for months until federal judge and Israeli duel citizen Michael Chertoff intervened and had them all quietly sent back to Israel on visa violations.

    Nothing to see Sam?

    so this brings us to the question of whether or not Sam Shama would toss Israel under the bus, and subject it to international reprobation of a very harsh nature indeed, out of his love and patriotism to this country, where as I understand it he's only even been here a short time, having immigrated from his native England (of from Israel where I understand Sam has also lived), and yet in this short time he's come to love America so much that he would forsake the land of his tribal people and subject them to perhaps an existential Nakba out of sheer outrage over those cheeky sneaks having done something so unspeakable to the dumb goyim,, err, I mean the great citizens of the US of A!

    I leave it for the reader to ponder the veracity of your patriotic love of my country Sam..
  156. @John Jeremiah Smith

    It has been used to destroy country after country (that Israel wanted destroyed), and it has been used to subvert and abolish our sacred and codified Constitutional rights, and it is still being used today to arm and fund stone age sub-human head-slicers and rapists in order to destroy Syria (so Israel can steal the Golan Heights)
     
    Having once held a pilot's license for several years, I am very much aware that a Saudi with 8 hours of lessons could fly a 767 into a teacup. But ... otherwise sensible people go apeshit with outrage and denial, so I won't. It's an irrelevant datum.

    Again, cui bono? IMO, by 2001, Israel had full control over the US government and banking system. The percentage of American national wealth held by dual-citizenship Israelis was more than sufficient to set policy, allocate funds, focus intelligence operations, direct undercover and/or "false flag" operations. That's been the CIA from the git-go -- Israel did not acquire 200 nuclear and thermonuclear weapons out of a clear blue sky. Don't be ridiculous -- all of Israel's military power is funded by working Americans (and lately, illegal mexicans).

    The situation is entirely out of control. There IS no American government, operated by and for Americans. Congress and SCOTUS have begun to do Israel's bidding without making any real attempt to conceal what's going on. If Garland is approved, there will be four Israelis on the US Supreme Court. FOUR of nine -- the rest being dumbshit robots of the RC church. That's incredible -- a stark violation of most Constitutional premises. We are faced with absolute and controlling corruption throughout all government agencies and processes.

    The USA is over, revolution should be imminent and inevitable, but Israeli control is so complete, and so ruthless, I wonder if they can actually keep it going indefinitely. Can wealth and power feed back in perpetuity? Could be.

    Can wealth and power feed back in perpetuity?

    yes it could, but it won’t

    they would be able to live “off the fat of the land” (usury and assorted Wall Street swindles and federal government tributes in the billions) for perpetuity, but they simply can’t stand to see the hated goyim thrive and be happy. It drives them nuts. So they always set about doing a ‘frog and scorpion’ thing and it always causes the nice set up to come crashing down

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    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith

    they would be able to live “off the fat of the land” (usury and assorted Wall Street swindles and federal government tributes in the billions) for perpetuity, but they simply can’t stand to see the hated goyim thrive and be happy. It drives them nuts.
     
    I don't see any future scenario where the goyim are happy and thriving. That's what I meant: Can wealth and power feed back in perpetuity? For the present, I see no reason to assume that the Israeli Empire must collapse. None.
  157. @fnn
    "Here is the First Law of conspiracy theories, that to protect the theory you have to expand it. The press is a good example. Any reporter would slit the throats of his entire newsroom to break that story. Instant Pulitzer, national fame, huge book contracts, a movie, choice of jobs anywhere. The paper that did it would have the story of the century. It would have been easy."

    A terrific , detailed story in the Chicago Tribune showing that the Israelis deliberately attacked what they knew was a USN ship, killing 34 and wounding 171. The reporter (who had already won a Pulitzer many years earlier) soon retired into anonymity:
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/chi-liberty_tuesoct02-story.html

    Of course many others knew the basic facts of this incident, but this was the first time the story was laid out in detail in the mainstream daily press.

    The idea of the attack on USS Liberty being deliberate always bothered me because the Israeli Air Force jets were not sent in loaded for sinking a ship (hence why they failed to sink it). They came in with small rockets and napalm bombs – those are ground-attack weapons.

    Stuart Slade has an alternative narrative I find more plausible – far more detailed, and revolving around Israeli incompetence and neglect of procedure.

    The coverup and the treatment of the sailors, regardless, was utterly disgraceful.

    [MORE]

    One of the more controversial events of the 1960s was the Israeli attack on the US Intelligence ship USS Liberty that was conducting intelligence operations off the Sinai coast when she was attacked by Israeli forces. Some of the controversy comes from allegations that the attack was deliberate and that the US colluded in it. In recent years, some of the signals pertaining to this tragedy have been released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty’s track chart and some intercepted Israeli messages. (ref-a)

    The story of the attack on the USS Liberty started on June 2, 1967, when she left Rota in Spain for the Middle East. There, in addition to supplies, she had taken on three Marine Corps Arabic translators, augmenting the three NSA Russian-language experts already on board. At the time, she was operating under orders from the US Sixth Fleet to stay “outside an arc whose radius is 240 miles from [the Egyptian city of] Port Said.” This is where the first error of judgement took place. Her handlers in the National Security Agency ignored the order and directed the ship to a point just outside Egypt’s territorial waters, a mere 12.5 miles from Port Said. These orders were recently released by the National Archives and were apparently the result of a perceived need to intercept communications that were uninterceptable from the specified distance. The most significant of these were tactical dialogues between Egyptian officers and their Soviet advisers. At the time it was regarded as being essential to determine the depth of Soviet involvement in the Egyptian military operations (hence the embarkation of the additional translators).

    On hearing of the decision by the NSA handlers, the US Navy sent a total of five subsequent cables from their European headquarters, instructing the USS Liberty to pull back to at least 100 miles. This is where the second glitch came in. Those messages (also released from the National Archives) were misrouted via the Philippines, and none reached the ship in time. In fact, the JCS’ orders would not be received by the Liberty until June 9, by which time they would no longer be relevant. Whether the misrouting was an accident or an NSA effort to keep the ship on the close-in station longer remains unknown but there is strong circumstantial reason to believe that NSA had much to gain by such misrouting. The fact that the signals went via the Philippines is unchallenged; the interesting question is why and how.

    Approaching the Sinai coast at dawn on June 6, the Liberty’s skipper, Commander William L. McGonagle, was deeply concerned by the risk to his ship and requested a destroyer escort, only to be reminded by the commander of the Sixth Fleet that the “Liberty is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters … and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation.” (National Archives) That’s glitch number three. It should be noted that the naval war was not going well for Israel at this point. The failure of the Israeli navy’s attacks on Egyptian and Syrian ports early in the war did little to assuage Israel’s fears. There was a very real fear inthe Israeli command that Arab naval units (that outnumbered the Israeli fleet by 5:1) would launch attacks on the Israeli coast. Consequently, the IDF Chief of Staff, Gen. Yitzhak Rabin, informed the U.S. Naval Attaché in Tel Aviv, Cmdr. Ernest Carl Castle, that Israel would defend its coast with every means at its disposal. Unidentified vessels would be sunk, Rabin advised; the United States should advise the Israelies of any ships operating in the area. The information provided by the US did not include the Liberty. While this was happening, Israel renewed its request that the United States assign a naval liaison officer to facilitate its communications with the US Navy. Previous to the outbreak of fighting, Israeli Ambassador Avraham Harman had warned the White House that “if war breaks out, we would have no telephone number to call, no code for plane recognition, and no way to get in touch with the U.S. Sixth Fleet.” The United States never approved the appointment of a liaison officer, nor did it inform Israel of the Liberty’s arrival in the area. Thats glitch number four.

    By June 8 the Liberty was patrolling between Port Said and Gaza, in a lane rarely used by commercial freighters and declared by Egypt as off-limits to neutral shipping. The track chart has also been released from the National Archives. It shows the Liberty starting from a position very close to the Egyptian coast and moving out to take up a racetrack pattern track off the Sinai coast. On June 8, just before six o’clock in the morning, an Israeli pilot reported finding a naval craft (“gray, bulky, with its bridge amidships”) 70 miles west of Gaza. Note that Israeli pilots were not trained for maritime attack or recon and, like most pilots, a ship was a ship was a ship. Nevertheless although he did not report seeing a flag, he did make out the hull marking “GTR-5,” which was enough for Israeli commanders to identify the ship as the USS Liberty and to mark it as a neutral vessel on their control board. Its worth noting that this was a manual plot, not a computerized system as we would use today for the same job. Manual control boards quickly become overloaded with data and have to be cleaned of old information regularly. (Ref b)

    At eleven o’clock in the morning, the watch at Israeli naval headquarters changed. The new officers, following procedures for removing old information and assuming the Liberty had sailed away, cleaned the board. For Israeli forces, the Liberty had ceased to exist. Glitch number five and a biggie. This is the one that was the proximate cause of the disaster. The Israeli officers here were culpably negligent in that they should have made sure a known US warship was out of the conflict area, not just assumed it was so. Unfortunately, the Israelis back then made a big thing out of their contempt for the routines, practices and doctrines employed by more established armed forces. In fact, they derided such practices as being typical of hidebound reactionaries; the Israeli Military Forces didn’t need all that nonsense about correct procedure. That attitude doomed Liberty.

    Now the situation began to escalate very quickly. Less than a half-hour later, Israeli soldiers in the Sinai coastal town of El Arish heard a violent explosion. The cause was probably either a detonation in an ammunition dump or an expended munition cooking off. However, these were rear echelon soldiers, freshly recalled reservists and were on edge – which is a polite way of saying panicky. They assumed it was enemy action, artillery fire, and reported it as such. Glitch number six. Now we have the old wildfire scenario. Because the explosion was reported as artillery fire, people began to look for the source – which was unlikely to be on land due to the tactical circumstances. If you look for something hard enough, you’ll find it even if it isn’t there. So, when the Israelis saw a ship off the coast, they assumed it was the source of the artillery fire – a warship doing shore bombardment. Just to make life complex, both Egyptian and Israeli sources had reported shelling of the area by Egyptian warships the previous day. A check with the situation board showed no friendly units or neutral ships in the area so it had to be hostile. Glitch number seven. Again, sloppy, poorly-disciplined officers making assumptions they shouldn’t. Another grievious fault for which they should be hung, drawn and quartered.

    Rabin was seriously concerned that the shelling was a prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank advancing Israeli troops. Since no fighter planes were available, the navy was asked to intercede, with the assumption that air cover would be provided later. More than half an hour passed without any response from naval headquarters in Haifa. The General Staff finally issued a rebuke: “The coast is being shelled and you – the navy – have done nothing.” Capt. Izzy Rahav in the operations room, needed no more prodding. He dispatched three torpedo boats of the 914th squadron, code-named “Pagoda,” to find the enemy vessel responsible for the bombardment and destroy it. The 914th consisted of three torpedo boats, the Peress, the Tahmass and the Yasoor. These were 60 ton craft built by France in the early 1950s (the last had entered service in 1956). They were armed with two 17.7 inch torpedo tubes, one 40 millimeter gun and four 20 millimeter weapons. They were powered by two Napier deltic diesels for a designed top speed of around 42 knots. By 1967, they were aging and had lost the top edge of their performance; their maximum speed was down to 36 knots in smooth water.

    The commander of those craft, Commander Udi Erell, had rules of engagement that precluded him from engaging any ship doing less than 20 knots – which, in 1967 meant pretty well every merchant ship in the world. However, now we have the mentality of FAC guys coming in. They tend to be young, enthusiastic – and reckless. This commander interpreted “don’t shoot at ships doing less than 20 knots” as “fire on any vessel going faster than 20 knots”. Glitch 8 quickly followed by Glitch 9. FAC skippers don’t really understand how much they get slowed down by even moderate seas when bigger ships don’t. He was doing 35 knots but was only catching the target slowly. Ensign Aharon Yifrah, combat information officer aboard the flagship of these torpedo boats miscalculated their target’s speed as 30 knots, not realizing sea conditions had slowed his real speed to around 25. Again we have the sloppy attitude of the Israeli Armed Forces entering the picture. A properly-kept track chart on the lead FAC would have shown something was not right with the picture. But keeping such charts is part of the administrivia that the Israelis affected to despise. Again, we also have to add in the attitude of the FAC commander. He WANTED that ship to be a legitimate target; the Israeli Navy was being overshadowed by the Army and Air Force and he wanted a victory. So he jumped to a wrong conclusion because that was a conclusion he wanted to jump to. Based on this false presumption, they prepared to attack. Ref – D

    Now we have horrible coincidences joining errors of judgement and technical glitches. The Liberty reached the end of her patrol racetrack and turned onto bearing 238 – putting her course back toward Egypt. The FAC skippers saw this and assumed their target was running for home. Worried they would lose their prey, they reported to the sitrep room that their target was now fleeing for home.

    Israeli naval commanders called up the air force and asked for help from whatever was available. What was available were two Mirages returning from a bombing strike, they were armed only with 30 millimeter cannons and air-to-air missiles and were very short on fuel. Had this been a deliberate attack they would have carried a warload better suited for attacking a ship. Making two passes at 3,000 feet, the formation commander reckoned that the ship was a “Z” or Hunt-class destroyer without the deck markings (a white cross on a red background) of the Israeli navy (which also operated both classes). The command pilot then spoke with air force commander Gen. Motti Hod, who asked him repeatedly whether he could see a flag. They failed to see either flags or markings on the ship. Not surprising, again these were pilots who were not trained for maritime operations and didn’t have any knowledge of naval operations or ship recognition. History is replete with examples of such pilots grotesquely misidentifying ships; although this was an error, it cannot be held against the pilots.

    After two low sweeps by the lead plane, at 1:58 p.m., the Mirages were cleared to attack. For want of anything more potent, they strafed the ship they saw. (by the way, its pure luck – good or ill – that they didn’t shoot up the Israeli FAC – they just hit the first ship they saw). The first salvos caught the Liberty’s crew in “stand-down” mode; several officers were sunning themselves on the deck, unaware of the Israeli jets bearing down on them. Before they could take shelter, rockets and 30-mm cannon shells stitched the ship from bow to stern, severing the antennas and setting oil drums on fire. Nine men were killed in the initial assault, and several times that number wounded, among them McGonagle.

    Minutes later came a second group of planes, Super-Mysteres, equally ill-suited for a naval engagement. They had been diverted from a strike against Egyptian infantry positions and carried napalm (but had been diverted going out, not coming back so had a decent fuel reserve). They dropped their canisters and one set fire to the deck, enshrouding the ship in smoke. The air attacks lasted 14 minutes; by 2:20 the aircraft had finished with their assault.

    It was at this junction that one Israeli pilot finally recognized Latin, not Arabic, letters on the hull. He made a desperate emergency call to the Israeli air controllers causing them to call off the action immediately. Now we have glitch ten. The Israeli communications system in 1967 was basically WW2 equipment that had been overhauled and modernized. It was already overloaded with running a fast-moving mobile war and , thanks to a breakdown in that communications system, the message to the Navy was caught in a backlog of calls waiting to go out. Classic case of too much flow down too small a pipeline. As a result, the order was very long delayed in reaching the navy; it finally made it to the FACs just after 4:00 pm. ref e

    It is at this point that we have a minor mystery. One of the major claims is that the Israelies were jamming US radio frequencies in order to prevent calls from help getting out. If true, this would be powerful evidence to suggest that the attackw as deliberate. There are, however, serious problems with this assertion. Firstly, the Liberty was a specialist electronic warfare ship and carried advanced ECCM equipment; it is hard to see how she could have been closed down so comprehensively. Secondly, the Israeli capability in EW at this time was virtually non-existant; neither aircraft nor the torpedo boats carried any ECM equipment. Thirdly, the communications equipment on the Liberty was such that jamming equipment would have to be placed within a series of carefully-defined positions relative to the ship and fourthly, any jamming capable of taking down US Navy communications so comprehensively would have affected a wide area. No such jamming was reported anywhere else by anybody. This leaves only three possible explanations for the alleged jamming (1) The crewmen on Liberty who reported such jamming are lying, (2) the reports that crewmen made such claims are fabricated or (3) whatever happened wasn’t jamming. If we discount (1) we are left with either fabrication or something else. The accusations made against the Israelies feature extensive fabrication so (2) is certainly possible but the most likely explanation is that the Liberty had already been strafed and napalmed with over 800 holes in her. The entire superstructure of the ship, from the main deck to the bridge, was aflame.The “jamming” was probably simply battle damage that had knocked out the ships wave guides and antennas.

    There now followed a lull in the action that lasted for 24 minutes while the Israeli torpedo boats caught up with the Liberty. Think about the geometry of this. They are sailing out to attack a ship offshore that has just turned away from them. That means they are in a tail chase. Now the Liberty was rated at 17.7 knots – lets say she had cranked up her engines and was doing 16. The Israeli FAC are rated at 40 knots – meaning at best the closing speed is 24 knots. However, in any sort of rough sea its unlikely they were doing more than 30 knots and possibly were down to 25. So that gives us a closing speed of (at best) 16 knots and possibly as little as 8. However, at those speeds, the FAC are bouncing all over the place and are throwing up large clouds of spray. The vibration is intense and the noise is deafening. Incidently, these are not the modern 200 – 400 ton, 56-meter missile craft, they are 70 foot MTBs, 10 feet shorter than a US WW2 PT boat (albeit somewhat heavier that the 35 – 45 ton PT boats). Ref f

    Now its reasonable to assume the Liberty had her stern to the FAC. Think about this. The Flag is at the stern, the ship is heading away from the FAC that are chasing her from astern. That means they are seeing the Flag (if they see it at all) edge-on from the rear. Their only hope of recognizing it is if it flutters from side to side. So to state the Israelies must have seen the Flag, we have to ask the two guys on the bridge to recognize a fluttering flag edge-on from a range of 4 to 8 miles from a 60 ton speedboat bouncing around in a cloud of spray while being shaken to pieces by two 4,000 shaft horsepower diesels running flat out. Now add in that the Liberty had been hit by a tank of napalm and was burning – in other words there were clouds of black smoke around her making visibility intermittant. Suddenly, it doesn’t seem so easy does it? ref g

    At this point the Israeli flagship signaled “AA” – “identify yourself.” Due to damaged equipment, McGonagle could only reply in kind, AA, with a hand-held Aldis lamp. Now we have a weird coincidence – Udi Erell’s father had been in command of a 1956 operation where the Israeli Navy had captured the Egyptian destroyer Ibrahim al-Awwal. This ship had tried to pose as a neutral ship when the israeli force closed in and had also replied to the interrogatory AA by responding with a repeat AA. There is little doubt Udi Erell was familiar with that story as family history and was sure that he now faced an enemy ship.

    Now we have another glitch, number 11. One of the American sailors on board, disregarded Captain McGonagle’s order not to fire on the approaching craft, and opened up with a deck gun. (ref h) Another machinegun opened fire by itself when fired cooked off its ready-use ammunition. Erell repeatedly requested permission from naval headquarters to return fire. Rahav finally approved.

    The Israeli FAC skipper also jumped to the assumption that the ship in front of him was Egyptian (Glitch 12), consulted his intelligence manual, identified it as the Egyptian naval freighter El Quseir, This identification has been criticised on grounds that the El Quseir was smaller than the Liberty and lacked her distinctive antennas. In reality, the El Quseir was laid up in Alexandria and its asserted (without proof) that “the Israelies must have known that”. Its also pointed out (quite correctly) that the Israeli FAC had a copy of JFS on board. Consulting a copy of the relevent edition of that publication, it does indeed list both Liberty and El Quseir – but includes photographs of neither. Rather pathetically, those who dispute the identification point out that the El Quseir was painted silver rather than the Liberty’s Haze Gray. In reality, under the circumstances prevailing, telling the difference between dirty silver and shiny gray is very hard – especially since both would have taken on a blue tinge by reflection from the surrounding sea and sky. However, all thats irrelevent since we now have Glitch 13 – he wasn’t trying to find out “which ship is this” he was looking for “which Egyptian Ship looks most like the one in front of me”

    The FAC commander elected to fire torpedoes. Now lets look at those torpedoes. They are not modern 21 inch jobs. The FAC in question were armed with World War Two ex-Italian 17.7 inch torpedoes. These had a 440 pound warhead and had a speed of 30 knots to 8,000 meters (ref i) . Distinctly lacking in range speed and striking power. Also unguided; there is no way a torpedo like that is aimed at any specific part of the ship. At 2:45 the Israeli FAC fired five torpedoes at a range of 6,000 meters for a single hit at around 2:50. This killed 25 men almost all of them from the intelligence section.

    The torpedo boats then closed in and from 3:00 onwards circled the ship, from the stern spraying it with 20 millimeter and 40 millimeter gunfire. When they reached the bows, the captain of one boat saw “GTR-5″ on the hull. He immediately halted fire, extended help to the Liberty, and called for rescue helicopters. For the first time in the whole stupid story somebody did something right. Two Israeli Helicopters reached the Liberty and offered assistance. Erell, shouting through a bullhorn, also tried to communicate with the ship but Captain McGonagle refused to respond. Realizing, finally, that his assailants had been Israeli, he flagged the torpedo boats away and made a gesture that the Israelies describe as “obscene, but under the circumstances, understandable”. By 5:05 p.m., the Israelis had broken off contact, and the Liberty, navigating virtually without systems, with 34 dead and 171 wounded aboard, staggered out to sea.

    I must make it quite clear that I do not condone the Israeli conduct in this affair; their performance was lacking even the earliest signs of competance and their professional negligence was profoundly culpable. They screwed up royally and deserve all the blame that can be ladled over their brainless heads. But they didn’t do it deliberately. 13 bad mistakes, errors of judgement and horrible coincidences. Its right to be enraged with the Israelis for their sloppy staffwork, lax procedures and inattention to detail caused them to launch an attack against a neutral ship. It is indeed with them that the ultimate blame lies for it is the Israeli disregard for careful procedure and their deliberate neglect of proper administration that caused the disaster. Their arrogant assumption that they alone had the secret of how to run a modern war and nobody else knew any part of it was largely to blame for the tragedy. Martin Van Creveld describes the Israeli attitude to proper procedure and to administrative advice as being arrogant bordering on boorish and frequently deliberately bullying, rude and offensive. (ref j) The US Navy also has some share of the blame for there should have been a liaison officer to provide a direct point of contact. Even after she was hit, the Americans had difficulty locating the Liberty, the JCS placing it at “60-100 miles north of Egypt.” If neither the US Navy nor even the President of the United States could know where the Liberty was, it seems unreasonable to expect that the Israelis, in the thick of battle, should have been able to locate it. The NSA must carry its share for keeping the ship dangerously close to the enemy coast and ignoring navy advice.

    A year later the destroyer Eilat was sunk by the same combination of blundering incompetence, stupidity and arrogance (three Egyptian missiles had something to do with it as well). (ref k) . Indeed, for those investigating the attack on Liberty, the command disasters involved in the sinking of the Eilat should be required reading. The same factors of boorish arrogance, incompetence, inadequate command control, defective equipment and long-delayed communications make their miserable appearnace.

    Six years after the Liberty incident, another Israeli Navy warship, the Miznak went into action. She was on her way to assist Hanit that had run aground on a sandbar off the Sinai coast. The captain (Captain Barkai) gave orders for the Miznak to keep out of a 45 kilometer circle around Port Said due to the danger of missile attack. He then went to his cabin and slept. The second in command (Udi Erell) was duty officer in the CIC. He was dozing in the CIC Ops Chair when he was struck by the silence in room. The Ops crew were asleep. Worse, the Miznak was heading on a straight line for Port said and was already well within the 45 kilometer danger zone. EW was off, the radar watch was asleep, helm was asleep. And the instruments were telling the crew that Egyptian missile craft were coming out of port. Commander Erell literally kicked the CIC crew into wakefulness as Captain Moshe Tabak, the group commander sent an in-clear radio warning of an impending attack (in clear because Miznak had not responded to coded radio signals – cypher room was asleep as well). Udi Erell slammed the throttles forward personally and swung the boat through 180 degrees. As he did so he saw the launch signature of P-15 missiles on the horizon. Four P-15s had been fired by two Project 183R (Komar) FAC-M and were already on their way. One went into the sea when its gyros tumbled, a second went into the sea far astern, the third overshot and landed in the sea three miles ahead of Miznak and the fourth exploded in the sea 100 meters aft of Miznak. (ref l)

    Why is this incident so significant? Note the name of the operations officer on Mizhak – Udi Erell. In 1967 he had commanded a squadron of three FAC. Six years later, in 1973, he had been demoted to the ops officer of one such craft. Yet Udi Erell is the son of Shlomo Erell, the Chief of Staff of the Israeli Navy. Despite being VIP’s son, the Israeli Navy really busted Udi Erell’s chops. If it was a conspiracy they’d have found somebody else less well-connected to be the scapegoat.

    References:

    Ref a – Documents relating to the Liberty incident – papers released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty track chart, transcripts of the Liberty signal log, intercepts of Israeli signals and statements by crew and captain. In short, the bulk of the declassified US official documentation.

    Ref b The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. This places great stress on the total obsolescence of the Israeli C3I system and the very poor command structure of the Israeli armed forces.

    Ref c Information from the Israeli side taken from evidence given at enquiries on the Liberty attack.

    Ref d Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch details the Israeli Navy;s appalling discipline and sloppy incompetance. The comments are all the more devastating because the author doesn’t realize the impact of the matters he’s relating.

    ref f Again, The Sword and The Olive details the hopelessly bad command structure of the Israeli Armed Forces.

    Ref f Janes Fighting Ships 1966 – 67. 3 of Israel’s FAC were old RN boats built in 1942, six were French built in 1950 and the most modern were three built in Italy in 1956

    ref g This is a point anybody with a speedboat can check for themselves.

    ref h Captain McGonagle’s statement to the Liberty Enquiry. National Archives.

    ref i Bagnasco Submarines of WW2 for details of these torpedoes.

    Ref j The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. It should be noted that four of Van Creveld’s sons have served in the IDF.

    ref k Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch The sheer incompetence surrounding the sinking of the Eilat is breathtaking – but another story. I believe that a US or UK skipper losing his ship in such a manner would be charged with manslaughter.

    Ref l Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch (again). The Miznak story defies belief. Its impossible to conceive of any professional navy (or most amateur ones) behaving in such a manner. The story is given veracity by Rabinovitchs treatment of the events – his cast being it showed how hard the Israeli Navy was fighting. Van Creveld shows in The Sword and the Olive that even by 1973, the basic problems with the IDF command structure had not been fixed.

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    • Replies: @Ron Unz

    Stuart Slade has an alternative narrative I find more plausible – far more detailed, and revolving around Israeli incompetence and neglect of procedure.
     
    You utterly ignorant nitwit!

    The NSA has had the tapes of the Israeli pilots discussing the attack on the Liberty for decades! My old friend Gen. Bill Odom *ran* the NSA for Ronald Reagan, and while he was in charge managed to circumvent the absolute political prohibition against publicizing the totally damning information by assigning the intercepted Israeli conversations as a "training exercise" to be used for all incoming senior NSA officers. Over the years, I'd assume many hundreds or even thousands of NSA officers must have heard those tapes and known the truth of what happened.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/was-this-the-911-new-jersey-celebration-trump-remembered/#comment-1240650

    Considering that you seem so totally unaware of these long-established facts, perhaps you should consider that there might be many other facts of which you also remain unaware...
    , @Whoever
    An interesting post. It has struck me as odd that the Israelis went after a large ship with napalm. It would seem to indicate an impromptu decision to attack. I've read the thorough Chicago Tribune article and am aware of the Israeli pilot radio chatter. I really don't know what to make of the episode.
    However, friendly-fire accidents do occur, and often can seem inexplicable and therefore intentional. Here's an example of a somewhat similar example to the Liberty incident, where during wartime conditions US Navy aircraft attacked and sank a clearly marked allied Soviet vessel following a previously announced, known and briefed course.
    The difference between this incident and the Liberty episode is that there was a prompt and professional investigation by the USN that included Soviet representatives, and those responsible did not continue on in the service of Uncle Sam.

    http://i.imgur.com/QVi2F55.jpg

  158. May I refer readers of this article to Steve Sailer’s “The Difference Between Rationality & Intelligence.” I’m not saying that Mr. Reed is intelligent, but he does demonstrate a high level of what is referred to in that article as “dysrationalia.”

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  159. @Rurik

    Can wealth and power feed back in perpetuity?
     
    yes it could, but it won't

    they would be able to live "off the fat of the land" (usury and assorted Wall Street swindles and federal government tributes in the billions) for perpetuity, but they simply can't stand to see the hated goyim thrive and be happy. It drives them nuts. So they always set about doing a 'frog and scorpion' thing and it always causes the nice set up to come crashing down

    they would be able to live “off the fat of the land” (usury and assorted Wall Street swindles and federal government tributes in the billions) for perpetuity, but they simply can’t stand to see the hated goyim thrive and be happy. It drives them nuts.

    I don’t see any future scenario where the goyim are happy and thriving. That’s what I meant: Can wealth and power feed back in perpetuity? For the present, I see no reason to assume that the Israeli Empire must collapse. None.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    For the present, I see no reason to assume that the Israeli Empire must collapse. None.
     
    the only thing holding it up is the patronage of the US in particular and the West in general. And almost all of that is a direct consequence of the raw financial power of the Federal Reserve Bank

    if the US Federal Reserve Note ever loses its status and the world's reserve currency, then the whole house of cards comes crashing down

    perhaps not all at once, but the Fed is the Eye of Mordor, and from it emanates the nefarious power

    Without the Fed to inject the ECB (and Asia's central banks and the World Bank and IMF, Wall Street, etc..), the US loses it's influence over Europe and much of the world. When the US no longer controls Europe as its vassal, and trillions of dollars can no longer be 'printed' at will to use as the global octopus of power, it will all end.

    will this happen in our lifetimes? IDK
  160. @Sam Shama

    if you had irrefutable proof that Israel had perpetrated 911, would you tell the world Sam?
     
    Yes, unequivocally. I am an American citizen and my loyalties are to this nation even though it would be a terrible realisation. However there is little in that regard that can even remotely be characterised as relevant data. You have the "Dancing Israelis" who apparently started videotaping prior to the impact. This is patent rubbish. What you have are the words of some middle aged woman who spotted them "dancing" as the towers were burning [much has been made about these dancing fellows, and interestingly, celebrations were in progress in many other areas around NJ, NY and the world over!] . So in fact she spotted them as the tower/towers were already burning. She did not see them arriving, setting up their equipment earlier, when nothing had happened. This was in the NYC police report. On Israeli TV [later also corroborated by the NYC police report] these fellows recounted their actions. They worked for a relocation company [which was surely a cover, and I suspect these guys were low level agents snooping in on local muslims] and having heard about the towers burning went back to their office [in Hoboken], picked up their camera equipment, and being rather familiar with the neighbourhood, found the right spot to get a good view of the unfolding disaster.

    They were also stupid; high-fiving because they caught on video what was surely an event to be recorded for the ages. btw, right across the Hudson from the WTC, many in the Newport NJ high-rises were videotaping, soon after the 8:15 impact.

    So this claim that Israeli involvement, complicit with the highest levels of the U.S. government and so many other actors who necessarily would have had to be involved, is an allegation which requires a very high level of evidentiary support, and that simply does not exist. Instead what we have is the usual blame placed on the default villains: Neocons and Israel. In fact, it seems that you were so ready to blame it all on the Jews, you enthusiastically swallowed Al Franken's satire on the "Jew Call" as truth! That I daresay, has to be a really, really open mind, which allows unhindered, the passage of satire, as cold, hard, fact! ;)

    Lastly, you ignored what Ed Snowden said. He spoke of wide ranging intel on an impending attack on the WTC [Mossad intimated FBI etc] or other high value targets by AQ, but the dots were never connected by our security agencies. This is what Snowden EXPLICITLY LAMENTED.

    All the same I am certainly no expert, and some things do appear rather odd to me [building 7]. So on the question of a blue ribbon investigation, I'd cast an 'aye' vote.

    Sam, Sam, Sam..

    just couldn’t resist the taste of wet excrement in the afternoon, eh?

    use a napkin for crying out loud!

    OK, that covers the Al Franken thing; where he did say he got forewarned and he has not since recanted it, and there are very few people -who don’t actually consume feces- that considered it sarcasm.

    (I confess it pains me to see you wallowing around in the septic tank with your buddy Boris-the shit eater Sam. I’ve often mistaken you as being above such bilge)

    also, as was mentioned during the same conversation, it has turned out that anywhere from 1 to 5 Israelis died on 911. And the one might have been the Israeli that was known to be on 0ne of the planes. Which would mean that there might have been zero Israelis who died in the WTC on that day. Whereas there were 15 citizens of Trinidad that died in the towers on 911, as well as hundreds of Brits and other foreign nationals who perished, which make an honest person wonder why there were so few Israelis there on that day. Don’t you wonder Sam how that could be? I mean the WTC was in the center of the Jewish owned financial capital of the world. The owner of the complex, Larry Silverstein was known to speak with the Israeli president Bibi on a weekly basis. Those are some very direct ties between those Jews in NYC and Jews in Tel Aviv, and yet only a tiny handful, if any, died on that day. Do you ever wonder if there were other Israelis besides the Mossad agents- who were there to “document the event”, who might have warned other Israelis not to go anywhere near the WTC on that day? Eh Sam? And yet allowed thousands of American (including Jews) to get slaughtered?

    Which brings us to the question of those “dancing Israelis”

    If they went on Israeli television, and told everyone that they were there to ‘document the event’, well then Sam, doesn’t that imply that they must have known what was going to happen?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI5wTgEHNok

    and if they were just some dudes who happened to have noticed something unusual and video taped it, then why did the FBI hold them in custody for months?

    Surely Sam, if they were just innocent schmos, why would they be held at all? A simple interview and the explanation you just gave, and they’d be on their way. And yet they were held for months until federal judge and Israeli duel citizen Michael Chertoff intervened and had them all quietly sent back to Israel on visa violations.

    Nothing to see Sam?

    so this brings us to the question of whether or not Sam Shama would toss Israel under the bus, and subject it to international reprobation of a very harsh nature indeed, out of his love and patriotism to this country, where as I understand it he’s only even been here a short time, having immigrated from his native England (of from Israel where I understand Sam has also lived), and yet in this short time he’s come to love America so much that he would forsake the land of his tribal people and subject them to perhaps an existential Nakba out of sheer outrage over those cheeky sneaks having done something so unspeakable to the dumb goyim,, err, I mean the great citizens of the US of A!

    I leave it for the reader to ponder the veracity of your patriotic love of my country Sam..

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I am afraid you are treading far too close to the ledge where you might end up at least embarrassing yourself. While I am aware that humour and the effective employment of irony are qualities better associated with the British Isles and Jewish cultures, I should have expected you, your Norwegian background notwithstanding [midsummer night parties involving adults playing hide and seek, music of Abba (!!), and jokes that Reader's Digest would disclaim association with] to at least know that Franken was delivering his usual dry wit routine! But No. You need him to explain to a bunch of "Truthers" that he was being satirical! I think he has better things and audiences to engage with, thank you. [and whatever do you mean by "recant" in this context? You are confusing satire with the Inquisition]. Boris btw, handled all the rubbish thrown at him with aplomb; mostly what you chaps seem to be able to do [few exceptions like CanSpeccy] is tirelessly embrace scatology in all its odd appeal.

    The second paragraph is the same evidence-free rant in the echo chamber of conspiracists. Boris dealt with it, so if you can't accept his logical reply, you are free to keep on ranting. Listen to yourself and how vapidly you contradict yourself. You gravely [hilariously actually] announce that Al Franken who is an American Jew, got a "Jew Call" to avoid the WTC, and in the very same breath you contend that only Israelis got the message and left hundreds of American Jews to die with others! At least make your rants internally consistent will you?

    Now as to the TV clip with those dancing dudes. The one that you linked is an idiotic ham job by a typical Truther. If you watched the genuine item in Israel and got the thing translated you'd have seen those idiots saying they heard about the explosion in the towers, scrambled to get their camera and then having found the spot started "documenting" a terrorist attack, something that Israel is intimately familiar with. Again, holding up pathetic random videos from Youtube, does not a strong logical argument make, leave alone a much higher standard required for legal evidentiary protocols.

    Who said they were innocent schmos?! As I wrote earlier, they were very likely low level part-time assets employed by Israel to snoop on local muslim mosques to find intel on money laundering schemes for Hezbollah and Hamas. [see Steve Sailer's recent piece].

    I won't comment too much on your patriotic chest thumping, which I am not particularly keen on. Your antics reminded me of this brilliant act by Fry and Laurie on your American brand of patriotism:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkyQPIUetRM [watch on the 9.3 min mark; song called "kickin' ass"]

    enjoy!

  161. @Buzz Mohawk
    Interesting that Fred comes out with this soon after Ron gave us this:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-the-cia-invented-conspiracy-theories/

    My point is not that Fred's piece complements Ron's. Just the opposite. It capitalizes on it and deflects suspicion away from 9/11. It ignores the more important point: It's not so much the physical "how" of the event that matters, so much as the "why" and "who."

    Regarding the towers collapsing, I've seen what fire can do to a steel structure:

    A tanker truck crashed on an intersate overpass near me. It's load of fuel burned right there on top of the bridge. Guess what, the massive beams holding up the roadway sagged like wet noodles. The heat of the fire was enough to soften the metal.

    In the Trade Center towers, beams much thinner than those are all that suspended the floors from the outer skeleton to the inner core. It was an unusual design. with no strength present inside the inner space.

    A few floors sagged, like my local bridge. The laws of geometry therefore required those thin, planar structures to pull away from their moorings at the perimeter. They broke free. They fell onto the floors below, their mass and momentum more than enough to cause a chain reaction all the way down. It proceeded vertically, through the path of least resistance, because the structure shunted it straight down that way. It accelerated quickly, because the mass kept growing as collapsed floors accumulated.

    Those puffs of smoke on the way down came from the pulverized dust in the air -- the air that was being shot out of the windows because it had nowhere else to go.

    Laymen don't realize that the towers were basically hollow tubes.

    It doesn't matter how they came down. What matters is who did it and/or allowed it to happen, and why. It was, after all, the Pearl Harbor the neocons and their friends wanted, to spark Americans into action.

    Buzz Mohawk is of course a “Spoofer”. He says that the only structure is the outside. Well I have a picture that has the afternoon sun shining through the WTC and you can actually see what the structure is. There’s a strong hefty core.

    http://www.thelivingmoon.com/47john_lear/04images/911/wtccoreshilouette.jpg

    Here’s more core pictures during construction

    http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/images/pagemaster/trident3.jpg

    An actual core column. Very strong.

    https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRREhtu_yOsBeT53Sh30JENNQil-oJbsaawgpioQlbuWvMJMX_ssw

    The idea that the outer columns were weak is more lies. The outer columns were designed to withstand 2,000% load before failing.

    “…[T]hese reports said that “live loads on these [perimeter] columns can be increased more than
    2000% before failure occurs” and that “one could cut away all of the first-story columns on one
    side of the building, and partway from the corners of the perpendicular sides, and the building
    could still withstand design live loads and a 100-mph wind force from any direction.”…”

    from Engineering News Record 1964 via this link, page 11

    https://web.archive.org/web/20160410065635/http://www.911myths.com/drg_nist_review_1_1.pdf

    You know the whole “Spoofer” story is all about how American engineers are complete idiots and can’t even design a building to stand up to a few fires. No matter how big the fires were on the top there were none on the bottom and the bottom was designed to hold the top up in the first place. The “Spoofers” have no common sense at all.

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  162. @Vendetta
    The idea of the attack on USS Liberty being deliberate always bothered me because the Israeli Air Force jets were not sent in loaded for sinking a ship (hence why they failed to sink it). They came in with small rockets and napalm bombs - those are ground-attack weapons.

    Stuart Slade has an alternative narrative I find more plausible - far more detailed, and revolving around Israeli incompetence and neglect of procedure.

    The coverup and the treatment of the sailors, regardless, was utterly disgraceful.

    One of the more controversial events of the 1960s was the Israeli attack on the US Intelligence ship USS Liberty that was conducting intelligence operations off the Sinai coast when she was attacked by Israeli forces. Some of the controversy comes from allegations that the attack was deliberate and that the US colluded in it. In recent years, some of the signals pertaining to this tragedy have been released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty’s track chart and some intercepted Israeli messages. (ref-a)

    The story of the attack on the USS Liberty started on June 2, 1967, when she left Rota in Spain for the Middle East. There, in addition to supplies, she had taken on three Marine Corps Arabic translators, augmenting the three NSA Russian-language experts already on board. At the time, she was operating under orders from the US Sixth Fleet to stay “outside an arc whose radius is 240 miles from [the Egyptian city of] Port Said.” This is where the first error of judgement took place. Her handlers in the National Security Agency ignored the order and directed the ship to a point just outside Egypt’s territorial waters, a mere 12.5 miles from Port Said. These orders were recently released by the National Archives and were apparently the result of a perceived need to intercept communications that were uninterceptable from the specified distance. The most significant of these were tactical dialogues between Egyptian officers and their Soviet advisers. At the time it was regarded as being essential to determine the depth of Soviet involvement in the Egyptian military operations (hence the embarkation of the additional translators).

    On hearing of the decision by the NSA handlers, the US Navy sent a total of five subsequent cables from their European headquarters, instructing the USS Liberty to pull back to at least 100 miles. This is where the second glitch came in. Those messages (also released from the National Archives) were misrouted via the Philippines, and none reached the ship in time. In fact, the JCS’ orders would not be received by the Liberty until June 9, by which time they would no longer be relevant. Whether the misrouting was an accident or an NSA effort to keep the ship on the close-in station longer remains unknown but there is strong circumstantial reason to believe that NSA had much to gain by such misrouting. The fact that the signals went via the Philippines is unchallenged; the interesting question is why and how.

    Approaching the Sinai coast at dawn on June 6, the Liberty’s skipper, Commander William L. McGonagle, was deeply concerned by the risk to his ship and requested a destroyer escort, only to be reminded by the commander of the Sixth Fleet that the “Liberty is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters … and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation.” (National Archives) That’s glitch number three. It should be noted that the naval war was not going well for Israel at this point. The failure of the Israeli navy’s attacks on Egyptian and Syrian ports early in the war did little to assuage Israel’s fears. There was a very real fear inthe Israeli command that Arab naval units (that outnumbered the Israeli fleet by 5:1) would launch attacks on the Israeli coast. Consequently, the IDF Chief of Staff, Gen. Yitzhak Rabin, informed the U.S. Naval Attaché in Tel Aviv, Cmdr. Ernest Carl Castle, that Israel would defend its coast with every means at its disposal. Unidentified vessels would be sunk, Rabin advised; the United States should advise the Israelies of any ships operating in the area. The information provided by the US did not include the Liberty. While this was happening, Israel renewed its request that the United States assign a naval liaison officer to facilitate its communications with the US Navy. Previous to the outbreak of fighting, Israeli Ambassador Avraham Harman had warned the White House that “if war breaks out, we would have no telephone number to call, no code for plane recognition, and no way to get in touch with the U.S. Sixth Fleet.” The United States never approved the appointment of a liaison officer, nor did it inform Israel of the Liberty’s arrival in the area. Thats glitch number four.

    By June 8 the Liberty was patrolling between Port Said and Gaza, in a lane rarely used by commercial freighters and declared by Egypt as off-limits to neutral shipping. The track chart has also been released from the National Archives. It shows the Liberty starting from a position very close to the Egyptian coast and moving out to take up a racetrack pattern track off the Sinai coast. On June 8, just before six o’clock in the morning, an Israeli pilot reported finding a naval craft (“gray, bulky, with its bridge amidships”) 70 miles west of Gaza. Note that Israeli pilots were not trained for maritime attack or recon and, like most pilots, a ship was a ship was a ship. Nevertheless although he did not report seeing a flag, he did make out the hull marking “GTR-5,” which was enough for Israeli commanders to identify the ship as the USS Liberty and to mark it as a neutral vessel on their control board. Its worth noting that this was a manual plot, not a computerized system as we would use today for the same job. Manual control boards quickly become overloaded with data and have to be cleaned of old information regularly. (Ref b)

    At eleven o’clock in the morning, the watch at Israeli naval headquarters changed. The new officers, following procedures for removing old information and assuming the Liberty had sailed away, cleaned the board. For Israeli forces, the Liberty had ceased to exist. Glitch number five and a biggie. This is the one that was the proximate cause of the disaster. The Israeli officers here were culpably negligent in that they should have made sure a known US warship was out of the conflict area, not just assumed it was so. Unfortunately, the Israelis back then made a big thing out of their contempt for the routines, practices and doctrines employed by more established armed forces. In fact, they derided such practices as being typical of hidebound reactionaries; the Israeli Military Forces didn’t need all that nonsense about correct procedure. That attitude doomed Liberty.

    Now the situation began to escalate very quickly. Less than a half-hour later, Israeli soldiers in the Sinai coastal town of El Arish heard a violent explosion. The cause was probably either a detonation in an ammunition dump or an expended munition cooking off. However, these were rear echelon soldiers, freshly recalled reservists and were on edge – which is a polite way of saying panicky. They assumed it was enemy action, artillery fire, and reported it as such. Glitch number six. Now we have the old wildfire scenario. Because the explosion was reported as artillery fire, people began to look for the source – which was unlikely to be on land due to the tactical circumstances. If you look for something hard enough, you’ll find it even if it isn’t there. So, when the Israelis saw a ship off the coast, they assumed it was the source of the artillery fire – a warship doing shore bombardment. Just to make life complex, both Egyptian and Israeli sources had reported shelling of the area by Egyptian warships the previous day. A check with the situation board showed no friendly units or neutral ships in the area so it had to be hostile. Glitch number seven. Again, sloppy, poorly-disciplined officers making assumptions they shouldn’t. Another grievious fault for which they should be hung, drawn and quartered.

    Rabin was seriously concerned that the shelling was a prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank advancing Israeli troops. Since no fighter planes were available, the navy was asked to intercede, with the assumption that air cover would be provided later. More than half an hour passed without any response from naval headquarters in Haifa. The General Staff finally issued a rebuke: “The coast is being shelled and you – the navy – have done nothing.” Capt. Izzy Rahav in the operations room, needed no more prodding. He dispatched three torpedo boats of the 914th squadron, code-named “Pagoda,” to find the enemy vessel responsible for the bombardment and destroy it. The 914th consisted of three torpedo boats, the Peress, the Tahmass and the Yasoor. These were 60 ton craft built by France in the early 1950s (the last had entered service in 1956). They were armed with two 17.7 inch torpedo tubes, one 40 millimeter gun and four 20 millimeter weapons. They were powered by two Napier deltic diesels for a designed top speed of around 42 knots. By 1967, they were aging and had lost the top edge of their performance; their maximum speed was down to 36 knots in smooth water.

    The commander of those craft, Commander Udi Erell, had rules of engagement that precluded him from engaging any ship doing less than 20 knots – which, in 1967 meant pretty well every merchant ship in the world. However, now we have the mentality of FAC guys coming in. They tend to be young, enthusiastic – and reckless. This commander interpreted “don’t shoot at ships doing less than 20 knots” as “fire on any vessel going faster than 20 knots”. Glitch 8 quickly followed by Glitch 9. FAC skippers don’t really understand how much they get slowed down by even moderate seas when bigger ships don’t. He was doing 35 knots but was only catching the target slowly. Ensign Aharon Yifrah, combat information officer aboard the flagship of these torpedo boats miscalculated their target’s speed as 30 knots, not realizing sea conditions had slowed his real speed to around 25. Again we have the sloppy attitude of the Israeli Armed Forces entering the picture. A properly-kept track chart on the lead FAC would have shown something was not right with the picture. But keeping such charts is part of the administrivia that the Israelis affected to despise. Again, we also have to add in the attitude of the FAC commander. He WANTED that ship to be a legitimate target; the Israeli Navy was being overshadowed by the Army and Air Force and he wanted a victory. So he jumped to a wrong conclusion because that was a conclusion he wanted to jump to. Based on this false presumption, they prepared to attack. Ref – D

    Now we have horrible coincidences joining errors of judgement and technical glitches. The Liberty reached the end of her patrol racetrack and turned onto bearing 238 – putting her course back toward Egypt. The FAC skippers saw this and assumed their target was running for home. Worried they would lose their prey, they reported to the sitrep room that their target was now fleeing for home.

    Israeli naval commanders called up the air force and asked for help from whatever was available. What was available were two Mirages returning from a bombing strike, they were armed only with 30 millimeter cannons and air-to-air missiles and were very short on fuel. Had this been a deliberate attack they would have carried a warload better suited for attacking a ship. Making two passes at 3,000 feet, the formation commander reckoned that the ship was a “Z” or Hunt-class destroyer without the deck markings (a white cross on a red background) of the Israeli navy (which also operated both classes). The command pilot then spoke with air force commander Gen. Motti Hod, who asked him repeatedly whether he could see a flag. They failed to see either flags or markings on the ship. Not surprising, again these were pilots who were not trained for maritime operations and didn’t have any knowledge of naval operations or ship recognition. History is replete with examples of such pilots grotesquely misidentifying ships; although this was an error, it cannot be held against the pilots.

    After two low sweeps by the lead plane, at 1:58 p.m., the Mirages were cleared to attack. For want of anything more potent, they strafed the ship they saw. (by the way, its pure luck – good or ill – that they didn’t shoot up the Israeli FAC – they just hit the first ship they saw). The first salvos caught the Liberty’s crew in “stand-down” mode; several officers were sunning themselves on the deck, unaware of the Israeli jets bearing down on them. Before they could take shelter, rockets and 30-mm cannon shells stitched the ship from bow to stern, severing the antennas and setting oil drums on fire. Nine men were killed in the initial assault, and several times that number wounded, among them McGonagle.

    Minutes later came a second group of planes, Super-Mysteres, equally ill-suited for a naval engagement. They had been diverted from a strike against Egyptian infantry positions and carried napalm (but had been diverted going out, not coming back so had a decent fuel reserve). They dropped their canisters and one set fire to the deck, enshrouding the ship in smoke. The air attacks lasted 14 minutes; by 2:20 the aircraft had finished with their assault.

    It was at this junction that one Israeli pilot finally recognized Latin, not Arabic, letters on the hull. He made a desperate emergency call to the Israeli air controllers causing them to call off the action immediately. Now we have glitch ten. The Israeli communications system in 1967 was basically WW2 equipment that had been overhauled and modernized. It was already overloaded with running a fast-moving mobile war and , thanks to a breakdown in that communications system, the message to the Navy was caught in a backlog of calls waiting to go out. Classic case of too much flow down too small a pipeline. As a result, the order was very long delayed in reaching the navy; it finally made it to the FACs just after 4:00 pm. ref e

    It is at this point that we have a minor mystery. One of the major claims is that the Israelies were jamming US radio frequencies in order to prevent calls from help getting out. If true, this would be powerful evidence to suggest that the attackw as deliberate. There are, however, serious problems with this assertion. Firstly, the Liberty was a specialist electronic warfare ship and carried advanced ECCM equipment; it is hard to see how she could have been closed down so comprehensively. Secondly, the Israeli capability in EW at this time was virtually non-existant; neither aircraft nor the torpedo boats carried any ECM equipment. Thirdly, the communications equipment on the Liberty was such that jamming equipment would have to be placed within a series of carefully-defined positions relative to the ship and fourthly, any jamming capable of taking down US Navy communications so comprehensively would have affected a wide area. No such jamming was reported anywhere else by anybody. This leaves only three possible explanations for the alleged jamming (1) The crewmen on Liberty who reported such jamming are lying, (2) the reports that crewmen made such claims are fabricated or (3) whatever happened wasn’t jamming. If we discount (1) we are left with either fabrication or something else. The accusations made against the Israelies feature extensive fabrication so (2) is certainly possible but the most likely explanation is that the Liberty had already been strafed and napalmed with over 800 holes in her. The entire superstructure of the ship, from the main deck to the bridge, was aflame.The “jamming” was probably simply battle damage that had knocked out the ships wave guides and antennas.

    There now followed a lull in the action that lasted for 24 minutes while the Israeli torpedo boats caught up with the Liberty. Think about the geometry of this. They are sailing out to attack a ship offshore that has just turned away from them. That means they are in a tail chase. Now the Liberty was rated at 17.7 knots – lets say she had cranked up her engines and was doing 16. The Israeli FAC are rated at 40 knots – meaning at best the closing speed is 24 knots. However, in any sort of rough sea its unlikely they were doing more than 30 knots and possibly were down to 25. So that gives us a closing speed of (at best) 16 knots and possibly as little as 8. However, at those speeds, the FAC are bouncing all over the place and are throwing up large clouds of spray. The vibration is intense and the noise is deafening. Incidently, these are not the modern 200 – 400 ton, 56-meter missile craft, they are 70 foot MTBs, 10 feet shorter than a US WW2 PT boat (albeit somewhat heavier that the 35 – 45 ton PT boats). Ref f

    Now its reasonable to assume the Liberty had her stern to the FAC. Think about this. The Flag is at the stern, the ship is heading away from the FAC that are chasing her from astern. That means they are seeing the Flag (if they see it at all) edge-on from the rear. Their only hope of recognizing it is if it flutters from side to side. So to state the Israelies must have seen the Flag, we have to ask the two guys on the bridge to recognize a fluttering flag edge-on from a range of 4 to 8 miles from a 60 ton speedboat bouncing around in a cloud of spray while being shaken to pieces by two 4,000 shaft horsepower diesels running flat out. Now add in that the Liberty had been hit by a tank of napalm and was burning – in other words there were clouds of black smoke around her making visibility intermittant. Suddenly, it doesn’t seem so easy does it? ref g

    At this point the Israeli flagship signaled “AA” – “identify yourself.” Due to damaged equipment, McGonagle could only reply in kind, AA, with a hand-held Aldis lamp. Now we have a weird coincidence – Udi Erell’s father had been in command of a 1956 operation where the Israeli Navy had captured the Egyptian destroyer Ibrahim al-Awwal. This ship had tried to pose as a neutral ship when the israeli force closed in and had also replied to the interrogatory AA by responding with a repeat AA. There is little doubt Udi Erell was familiar with that story as family history and was sure that he now faced an enemy ship.

    Now we have another glitch, number 11. One of the American sailors on board, disregarded Captain McGonagle’s order not to fire on the approaching craft, and opened up with a deck gun. (ref h) Another machinegun opened fire by itself when fired cooked off its ready-use ammunition. Erell repeatedly requested permission from naval headquarters to return fire. Rahav finally approved.

    The Israeli FAC skipper also jumped to the assumption that the ship in front of him was Egyptian (Glitch 12), consulted his intelligence manual, identified it as the Egyptian naval freighter El Quseir, This identification has been criticised on grounds that the El Quseir was smaller than the Liberty and lacked her distinctive antennas. In reality, the El Quseir was laid up in Alexandria and its asserted (without proof) that “the Israelies must have known that”. Its also pointed out (quite correctly) that the Israeli FAC had a copy of JFS on board. Consulting a copy of the relevent edition of that publication, it does indeed list both Liberty and El Quseir – but includes photographs of neither. Rather pathetically, those who dispute the identification point out that the El Quseir was painted silver rather than the Liberty’s Haze Gray. In reality, under the circumstances prevailing, telling the difference between dirty silver and shiny gray is very hard – especially since both would have taken on a blue tinge by reflection from the surrounding sea and sky. However, all thats irrelevent since we now have Glitch 13 – he wasn’t trying to find out “which ship is this” he was looking for “which Egyptian Ship looks most like the one in front of me”

    The FAC commander elected to fire torpedoes. Now lets look at those torpedoes. They are not modern 21 inch jobs. The FAC in question were armed with World War Two ex-Italian 17.7 inch torpedoes. These had a 440 pound warhead and had a speed of 30 knots to 8,000 meters (ref i) . Distinctly lacking in range speed and striking power. Also unguided; there is no way a torpedo like that is aimed at any specific part of the ship. At 2:45 the Israeli FAC fired five torpedoes at a range of 6,000 meters for a single hit at around 2:50. This killed 25 men almost all of them from the intelligence section.

    The torpedo boats then closed in and from 3:00 onwards circled the ship, from the stern spraying it with 20 millimeter and 40 millimeter gunfire. When they reached the bows, the captain of one boat saw “GTR-5″ on the hull. He immediately halted fire, extended help to the Liberty, and called for rescue helicopters. For the first time in the whole stupid story somebody did something right. Two Israeli Helicopters reached the Liberty and offered assistance. Erell, shouting through a bullhorn, also tried to communicate with the ship but Captain McGonagle refused to respond. Realizing, finally, that his assailants had been Israeli, he flagged the torpedo boats away and made a gesture that the Israelies describe as “obscene, but under the circumstances, understandable”. By 5:05 p.m., the Israelis had broken off contact, and the Liberty, navigating virtually without systems, with 34 dead and 171 wounded aboard, staggered out to sea.

    I must make it quite clear that I do not condone the Israeli conduct in this affair; their performance was lacking even the earliest signs of competance and their professional negligence was profoundly culpable. They screwed up royally and deserve all the blame that can be ladled over their brainless heads. But they didn’t do it deliberately. 13 bad mistakes, errors of judgement and horrible coincidences. Its right to be enraged with the Israelis for their sloppy staffwork, lax procedures and inattention to detail caused them to launch an attack against a neutral ship. It is indeed with them that the ultimate blame lies for it is the Israeli disregard for careful procedure and their deliberate neglect of proper administration that caused the disaster. Their arrogant assumption that they alone had the secret of how to run a modern war and nobody else knew any part of it was largely to blame for the tragedy. Martin Van Creveld describes the Israeli attitude to proper procedure and to administrative advice as being arrogant bordering on boorish and frequently deliberately bullying, rude and offensive. (ref j) The US Navy also has some share of the blame for there should have been a liaison officer to provide a direct point of contact. Even after she was hit, the Americans had difficulty locating the Liberty, the JCS placing it at “60-100 miles north of Egypt.” If neither the US Navy nor even the President of the United States could know where the Liberty was, it seems unreasonable to expect that the Israelis, in the thick of battle, should have been able to locate it. The NSA must carry its share for keeping the ship dangerously close to the enemy coast and ignoring navy advice.

    A year later the destroyer Eilat was sunk by the same combination of blundering incompetence, stupidity and arrogance (three Egyptian missiles had something to do with it as well). (ref k) . Indeed, for those investigating the attack on Liberty, the command disasters involved in the sinking of the Eilat should be required reading. The same factors of boorish arrogance, incompetence, inadequate command control, defective equipment and long-delayed communications make their miserable appearnace.

    Six years after the Liberty incident, another Israeli Navy warship, the Miznak went into action. She was on her way to assist Hanit that had run aground on a sandbar off the Sinai coast. The captain (Captain Barkai) gave orders for the Miznak to keep out of a 45 kilometer circle around Port Said due to the danger of missile attack. He then went to his cabin and slept. The second in command (Udi Erell) was duty officer in the CIC. He was dozing in the CIC Ops Chair when he was struck by the silence in room. The Ops crew were asleep. Worse, the Miznak was heading on a straight line for Port said and was already well within the 45 kilometer danger zone. EW was off, the radar watch was asleep, helm was asleep. And the instruments were telling the crew that Egyptian missile craft were coming out of port. Commander Erell literally kicked the CIC crew into wakefulness as Captain Moshe Tabak, the group commander sent an in-clear radio warning of an impending attack (in clear because Miznak had not responded to coded radio signals – cypher room was asleep as well). Udi Erell slammed the throttles forward personally and swung the boat through 180 degrees. As he did so he saw the launch signature of P-15 missiles on the horizon. Four P-15s had been fired by two Project 183R (Komar) FAC-M and were already on their way. One went into the sea when its gyros tumbled, a second went into the sea far astern, the third overshot and landed in the sea three miles ahead of Miznak and the fourth exploded in the sea 100 meters aft of Miznak. (ref l)

    Why is this incident so significant? Note the name of the operations officer on Mizhak – Udi Erell. In 1967 he had commanded a squadron of three FAC. Six years later, in 1973, he had been demoted to the ops officer of one such craft. Yet Udi Erell is the son of Shlomo Erell, the Chief of Staff of the Israeli Navy. Despite being VIP’s son, the Israeli Navy really busted Udi Erell’s chops. If it was a conspiracy they’d have found somebody else less well-connected to be the scapegoat.

    References:

    Ref a – Documents relating to the Liberty incident – papers released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty track chart, transcripts of the Liberty signal log, intercepts of Israeli signals and statements by crew and captain. In short, the bulk of the declassified US official documentation.

    Ref b The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. This places great stress on the total obsolescence of the Israeli C3I system and the very poor command structure of the Israeli armed forces.

    Ref c Information from the Israeli side taken from evidence given at enquiries on the Liberty attack.

    Ref d Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch details the Israeli Navy;s appalling discipline and sloppy incompetance. The comments are all the more devastating because the author doesn’t realize the impact of the matters he’s relating.

    ref f Again, The Sword and The Olive details the hopelessly bad command structure of the Israeli Armed Forces.

    Ref f Janes Fighting Ships 1966 – 67. 3 of Israel’s FAC were old RN boats built in 1942, six were French built in 1950 and the most modern were three built in Italy in 1956

    ref g This is a point anybody with a speedboat can check for themselves.

    ref h Captain McGonagle’s statement to the Liberty Enquiry. National Archives.

    ref i Bagnasco Submarines of WW2 for details of these torpedoes.

    Ref j The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. It should be noted that four of Van Creveld’s sons have served in the IDF.

    ref k Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch The sheer incompetence surrounding the sinking of the Eilat is breathtaking – but another story. I believe that a US or UK skipper losing his ship in such a manner would be charged with manslaughter.

    Ref l Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch (again). The Miznak story defies belief. Its impossible to conceive of any professional navy (or most amateur ones) behaving in such a manner. The story is given veracity by Rabinovitchs treatment of the events – his cast being it showed how hard the Israeli Navy was fighting. Van Creveld shows in The Sword and the Olive that even by 1973, the basic problems with the IDF command structure had not been fixed.
     

    Stuart Slade has an alternative narrative I find more plausible – far more detailed, and revolving around Israeli incompetence and neglect of procedure.

    You utterly ignorant nitwit!

    The NSA has had the tapes of the Israeli pilots discussing the attack on the Liberty for decades! My old friend Gen. Bill Odom *ran* the NSA for Ronald Reagan, and while he was in charge managed to circumvent the absolute political prohibition against publicizing the totally damning information by assigning the intercepted Israeli conversations as a “training exercise” to be used for all incoming senior NSA officers. Over the years, I’d assume many hundreds or even thousands of NSA officers must have heard those tapes and known the truth of what happened.

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/was-this-the-911-new-jersey-celebration-trump-remembered/#comment-1240650

    Considering that you seem so totally unaware of these long-established facts, perhaps you should consider that there might be many other facts of which you also remain unaware…

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    • Replies: @iffen
    You utterly ignorant nitwit!

    a marked tendency to profanely insult anyone who disagrees with him.
  163. @Corvinus
    "There appears no way for America to return to constitutional government except via a counter coup."

    We have constitutional government and the rule of law. It's just that some people don't like how it has been implemented.

    We have constitutional government and the rule of law. It’s just that some people don’t like how it has been implemented.

    Most federal judges regularly ignore the 9th and 10th amendment, and they perv