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Intelligent Design: Two Weeks in Chengdu and Environs
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Vi and I have just returned from Chengdu, a Chinese village of seventeen million and the gateway to Tibet. Since China is of some interest to the US these days, I thought a description of sorts, actually more in the nature of a disordered travelogue, might be of interest. I hadn’t been to the country for twelve years and, before that, not since living in Taiwan in the mid-Seventies. Each time, the changes were astonishing. Herewith some notes:

A caveat: we never got more than three hundred miles from the city and do not pretend to describe the country beyond what we saw.

Despite Trump’s trade war we had no problems in getting visas in Guadalajara or getting through customs in Chengdu. Nobody showed us the slightest hostility. Although China is assuredly a dictatorship and vigorously represses dissent, we saw virtually no police. A friend who lived in Chengdu for several years until recently asserts that there is close to zero street crime. (White collar crime is a very different matter, he said, and seems built into Chinese culture. There are books on this.)

China is often described as a developing country. Well, sort of. Chengdu is decidedly of the First World, modern, muscular, appearing to have been recently built because it was. The downtown is beautiful, at least as cities go, and livable. In many hours of walking aimlessly we encountered everything from elegant high-end stores selling upscale Western bands to noodle shops. It is not a poor city. A considerable number of people wear worn clothes and clearly are not overly prosperous, but nobody looked hungry and most appeared middle class. We saw no beggars or homeless people of the sort common in the US. Whether this is because there aren’t any, or because the government doesn’t allow them on the streets, I do not know.

For anyone who knows what China was before Deng Xiaoping took over in 1978, after Mao made his greatest contribution to his country–he died–the growth of prosperity astounds. Many criticisms may be made of the Chinese government, some of them valid, but no other government has lifted so many people out of poverty so fast.

When I lived in Taiwan, I wondered why the Chinese, especially the mainlanders, were so backward. They seemed to have been so almost forever, certainly since well before Legation days. At the time Taiwan had a Five Year Plan for development, but so did all sorts of dirtball counties, mostly consisting of a patch of jungle, a colonel, and a torture chamber.

I noted, though, if the reader will forgive me a digression: Taiwan was actually meeting its Plan. In the Third World of the time, this was a novel idea. The Jin Shan reactors were going in, the new port, the steel mill, the highway. I interviewed the head of the nuclear program for the Far Eastern Economic Review–Harvard guy. Other officials were from MIT. Idi Amin they were not.

Young and dumb as I was–the two being barely distinguishable–I thought Hong Kong looked like Manhattan with slanted eyes, hardball financial turf, and I knew Taiwanese students in America were excelling in science courses. I concluded that Mousy Dung was the greatest American patriot who ever lived since, if he ever stopped holding these people back, what has happened might.

But back to Chengdu.

A perfectly stunning number of clusters of apartment buildings like these swarm on the horizon. The only round–eye  I met who lived in one said that her apartment was quite nice.
A perfectly stunning number of clusters of apartment buildings like these swarm on the horizon. The only round–eye I met who lived in one said that her apartment was quite nice.

The first thing we noticed in the city was the enormous scale of everything. Buildings downtown were huge. The elevated highways everywhere were huge. The numbers of people were huge. There were literally hundreds of hugely tall apartment buildings. The principle seemed to be that if you have too many people to spread them out, stack them up. Said a Chinese guide we hired, they weren’t there twenty years ago.

Conspicuous to both Violeta and me was evidence of Intelligent Design. Chengdu clearly did not evolve randomly as cities do in the West. Somebody thought about things beforehand. The overhead highways kept heavy traffic flowing. Very wide sidewalks downtown made pedestrianism pleasant. The subway was nothing special but well designed to be easy to use even if you don’t know how. (Well, it does have sliding glass doors to keep you away from the tracks until the train comes. This way, you can’t throw things onto the tracks, such as your mother-in-law.)

A characteristic of the Chinese is that there are lots of them. The photo is deceptive since only in a few old, narrow-streeted market regions do you see this. But I liked the picture, so you have to look at it. (Due to a camera missetting, I got video, but it seemed descriptive, so I kept it.)

In a country that thinks it is communist, or pretends it is to save face in case you notice that it isn’t, you might expect horrible architecture. You know, like the awful Stalin Gothic of Moscow. Or Franco’s mausoleum that looks to have been designed by someone channeling Albert Speer. Actually no. (Except maybe sorta for the huge apartment buildings, mentioned above, that cluster together in sometimes groups of twelve that could hold the population of Guatemala).

Thing is, the Chinese have a well-developed aesthetic sense, at least in the visual realm (not so hot musically, and Beijing opera is a crime against humanity). Somebody, which means the government, said that considerable green space would be left, and it was. Planters with (unsurprisingly) plants in them are everywhere, and patches of what look like manicured forest. The result is curious. You can sit in cool shady woods a few yards from an enormous overhead highway.

ORDER IT NOW

Communism, which China once had, pretty much forbids religion, so I wondered what we would find in the faith line. Buddhists. We visited Buddhist temples, meticulously maintained, with worshipers, mostly women, obviously worshiping. How was this, I asked my round-eyed friend. Well, he said, Christianity was strongly disapproved as being Western, but the government was nervous about public reaction to a crackdown on Buddhism. So they decided that Buddhism wasn’t a religion, see, but Chinese culture, and thus OK. I don’t know whether this is true, but thought it a nicely practical waffle.

Huge. Here we go again. Chengdu has what it says is the world’s largest building, 1.5 million square meters. This is the Global Center. It is the damndest thing I have ever seen, maybe. I suspect it was built to overcome an international short-man’s complex. I bet it did, too. It was like going into the VAB at Canaveral, unlimited space, with hotels, stores, offices, wide open space. But–the aesthetic thing again–it was wonderfully colorful and just–“gorgeous” comes to mind. It was not designed by corporate in New Jersey.

The Chinese conception of wide-screen video, at the Global Center. Note the man just to the left of the video button. I am not sure why the blonde is there. I think it a good idea, though. Violeta thinks it has to do with Victoria’s Secret. It isn’t clear where she could hide more than a very small secret.

To prove that China has reached American levels of mild lunacy: we passed an Alienware store–high-end gaming computers–with a crowd of Chinese looking at a screen on which, somewhere, a video game was being played. The announcer sounded as excited as a Latin American covering a hotly contested soccer match: “Womenhau…wangjile!..wangjile!mijyou!MIJYOU!woshrhenhau!..YANGGWEIDZE….” in a rising shriek. I couldn’t understand a word of it, but the involvement reminded me of when Mexico beat Germany in the World Cup.

More traditional, in the suburbs. Good food, nice people. Shamelessly showing off, I dredged up the decaying corpse of my ancient Mandarin, “Ching ni, geiwo liang ping pijyou, hau bu hou.” Ordering beer is the main purpose of any language.

Next time bullet trains, WeChat, other neat stuff.

(Republished from Fred on Everything by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Economics, Foreign Policy • Tags: China, China/America 
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  1. right, Fred…

    during the 1920-30′s a lot of western visitors came back from the equally totalitarian, Judeo-communist Soviet Union singing the same song:

    “we have seen the future, and it works”

    actually, the Gulag in Commie-Capitalist China is bigger than Stalin’s and equally lethal: the Reds shoot 5,ooo people per week just to keep the numbers under control. The organs of the massacred are then used for medical research. As to the Chicom economy, the apparent prosperity is partly due to the fact that most of America’s industrial economy – via “free trade: – is now located in mainland China, + massive debt-bubbling.

    Fred…

    he’d rather be Red than dead.

  2. bossel says:

    “no other government has lifted so many people out of poverty so fast”
    Hmm, well, they did so by letting in mostly Western & Japanese (& quite a few Taiwanese, too) companies to produce their stuff in China. (Now these sell a lot there, too, of course.)

    “Said a Chinese guide we hired, they weren’t there twenty years ago.”
    & they probably won’t be, in 20 years from now. Building quality is abysmal. Many people will still be paying off their apartments when they already have become unlivable.

    “The photo is deceptive since only in a few old, narrow-streeted market regions do you see this.”
    Ah, well, that looks like the typical Chinese tourist trap (real street markets look more like this: https://viuly.io/video/street-market-in-guangzhou–straenmarkt-in-kanton-413930 ), so no wonder. But you will see the same horror (for me, it is) in normal pedestrian zones in pretty much every bigger Chinese city.

    “Planters with (unsurprisingly) plants in them are everywhere, and patches of what look like manicured forest. The result is curious.”
    Particularly considering air pollution:

    https://waqi.info/

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  3. bossel says:

    BTW, I forgot:

    “we saw virtually no police”
    But the police sees you. Electronic surveillance is omnipresent.

    “Whether this is because there aren’t any, or because the government doesn’t allow them on the streets, I do not know.”
    Probably the latter. Don’t know about Chengdu, but last year in Beijing Chengguan (local government thugs, not really police) were pretty much everywhere. Inside the 4th ring road it was virtually impossible even to find any street hawkers. Beggars probably moved to the outskirts or to smaller cities.

  4. ia says:

    Having lived in Shanghai for several years I think I can offer a few thoughts.

    China is an environmental dead zone. They’ve destroyed all wildlife. There are no birds, squirrels, rabbits, deer, etc. Only sparrows, to small to eat.

    They have cat farms. Tens of thousands of cats are raised to be eaten every year.

    They mistreat (and eat) dogs. They hung, hung from a tree, two dogs in a small town not far from Shanghai because there was an outbreak of rabies, most likely caused by maltreatment.

    They over-use chemicals in food and seafood production. You are eating poison if you eat anything from China. Mostly antibiotics, but many other chemicals. Corrupt government officials sell dangerous drugs to farmers who are not able to comprehend the damage. What are the cancer stats for China? We don’t know because they are hidden.

    The government corruption is typical third-world. The Chinese are just a bit smarter and disciplined and can conceal better.

    There are admirable qualities to the Chinese but I was glad to leave.

  5. ia says:

    I might add that the Chinese are behind the vast majority of illegal animal killing world-wide. They use the body parts of tigers and rhinos (especially) for herbal tea. They think this will give them courage. I’ve read recently in a western publication that the Chinese are now raising tigers in captivity in order to harvest them.

  6. JLK says:

    The transition from Anglo dominance to American dominance was pretty seamless. I’m all for opportunity for the Chinese people, but their rise is ultimately going to have a big effect on world culture and values.

    • Replies: @anon
  7. Well, I came to read to see if it was the same old Fred, but I was pleasantly surprised. There is actually no anti-everything-American wording in the article, so it is very readable.

    I know the country from more than being a tourist for a week, so I have a correction or two: There is plenty of street crime. Motorcycles were completely banned from Canton (called Guanzhou now, for some reason) due to the problem with guys grabbing purses from on their bikes. Yes, girls’ arms have been broken in the process.

    Buddhism may be said to be their religion, but I believe Communism has knocked the moralism and religion out of the population of that country. Materialism rules completely. Ask a Chinaman who burns money on Tomb-sweeping day why he won’t burn any real money. You either believe in that stuff or you don’t. I asked “why do you just burn that fake Tomb-sweeping day money?” “Well, you have to pay for that too, so …” Yeah.

    The cities and other infrastructure are pretty amazing though. They are making good use of the money that they get for selling us the cheap China-made crap. In a province remote from the big 1st-tier show-off cities there are new roads with mile-long tunnels and long bridges connecting the steep terrain, and the one I was on cut down the travel time from 4 hours on the fairly-decent (but not limited-access) road to under 2 hours! I’ve said some bad things about China, but here’s a Peak Stupidity apology.

    .. .after Mao made his greatest contribution to his country–he died–

    I like that line, a lot!

    Yes, you don’t see many cops compared to in America, and with the way the Chinese drive, cops could make an awful lot of money without hardly trying. Things are getting more locked-up now, though, not less. Try being anonymous on the internet there – it’s more difficult than here. They’ve been clamping down on cell-phone sim cards to know who’s got each phone.

    Good and bad, but if you don’t like lots of people around, China will not be your cup of green tea.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @pyrrhus
    , @Clyde
  8. Good work covering what you saw. Not so good on wild generalizations. To wit:

    1. “China is assuredly a dictatorship and vigorously represses dissent”. China is a democracy(https://www.unz.com/article/selling-democracy-to-china/ and tolerates more dissent than the US–but what they tolerate is different from what we tolerate.

    2. “after Mao made his greatest contribution to his country–he died”. Mao’s greatest contribution was rebuilding China. Deng simply iced the cake. Starting with an industrial base smaller than that of Belgium’s in the 50s, the China that for so long was ridiculed as “the sick man of Asia” emerged at the end of the Mao period as one of the six largest industrial producers in the world.

    National income grew five-fold over the 25-year period 1952-78, increasing from 60 billion to over 300 billion yuan, with industry accounting for most of the growth. On a per capita basis, the index of national income (at constant prices) increased from 100 in 1949 (and 160 in 1952) to 217 in 1957 and 440 in 1978.

    Over the last two decades of the Maoist era, from 1957 to 1975, China’s national income increased by 63 percent on a per capita basis during this period of rapid population growth, more than doubling overall and the basic foundations for modern industrialism were laid and outpacing every other development takeoff in history.

    In Germany the rate of economic growth 1880-1914 was 33 percent per decade.
    In Japan from 1874-1929 the rate was 43 percent.
    The Soviet Union over the period 1928-58 the rate was 54 percent.
    In China over the years 1952-72 the decadal rate was 64 percent.

    Bear in mind that, save for limited Soviet aid in the 1950s, repaid in full and with interest by 1966, Mao’s industrialization proceeded without benefit of foreign loans or investments–under punitive embargoes the entire 25 years–yet Mao was unique among developing country leaders in being able to claim an economy burdened by neither foreign debt nor internal inflation.

    3. “We visited Buddhist temples, meticulously maintained, with worshipers, mostly women, obviously worshiping”.You’ll find that everywhere you go. No-one interferes with private worship, despite the fact that a Christian uprising killed 30,000,000 Chinese when my grandpa was a boy. Tolerance is still high in China.

    • Agree: Vidi
    • Disagree: Colin Wright
  9. Yee says:

    The author is sabotaging US government’s scheme to attract Chinese immigrants…

    The US government has been spending billions of dollars over the years to convince Chinese people that the life they’re living is hell compare to America.

    If you go to Chinese Internet forums, you will read about the paradise that the US is, which would probably make even Americans envy.

    So Chinese people line up to empty their saving to go to America…

    • Replies: @anon
  10. China is a democracy(https://www.unz.com/article/selling-democracy-to-china/ and tolerates more dissent than the US–but what they tolerate is different from what we tolerate.

    LMAO you’re a demented buffoon.

  11. Da Wei says:

    Fred,

    Thanks for this piece. If you got to the panda exhibit you saw wild mountain terrain somehow hidden in the middle of a modern city. It is amazing.

    I’ve lived in China nearly a dozen years now and for the first few years in a village in Guangdong. I’m a Caucasian good ol’ boy Christian and attended church services in a private home but could take it for no more than a year. I came out of a gospel background and their presentation was on power point. You get the idea. There was an established Christian church in town, but services were in Chinese and challenging to me. It was no secret to anyone that I was Christian and one Easter morning a Chinese friend called to tell about the jammed traffic leading to the church and of so many attending service that loudspeakers were set up outside for the hundreds standing around. A few years later in Shenzhen (a place that honors Deng Xiao Ping) I met numerous Chinese Christians from other parts of China. My point is that although Americans will eagerly tell of suppression of Christianity in China, I haven’t seen it, nor, I suspect have they.

    Learning about Communism firsthand was of keen interest, but I didn’t see that, either. Finally, I got to know an old timer Party member and asked him what Communism was about. He explained that way back when they would talk about Marx and Engels, but now conversation is all about free market economy. China is all about business. If you’re a foreigner you don’t do business here without a Chinese partner and it’s only a matter of time before they screw you over. You know it’s coming, just not quite when and how. It’s like being in business with family.

    Christianity is not suppressed and Buddhism isn’t tolerated only because it’s part of the culture, although anything that is part of the culture is encouraged, it seems. Chinese identify with their culture the way Americans identify with their laws. (That’s why undermining the Constitution is the quickest way to attack the national character, we don’t seem to know who we are without it.)

    Back in the States, when I tell anyone I’ve been living in China I can expect an earful. Nobody needs to ask questions. Americans know all about China. They saw it on television or took a guided tour of the Great Wall. I thought I knew something about this place until I had been here a few years and realized everything I thought I knew was completely wrong.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @RobinG
  12. Lin says:

    I usually stayed away from emotional topics and I’m actually entertained reading some of the anti-PRC comments and I sincerely hope more people would pick them up to prepare them for a harder shock 10 yrs from now
    First some stats:
    ………….Chinese nominal GDP in US$ increased more than 10 folds from 1999 to 2014

    2014 figs.( http://www.stats.gov.cn/tjsj/zxfb/201502/t20150226_685799.html )

    “全年国内生产总值[5]636463亿元..”…”全年人民币平均汇率为1美元兑6.1428元人民币..”

    1999 figs(http://www.stats.gov.cn/tjsj/tjgb/ndtjgb/qgndtjgb/200203/t20020331_30013.html)

    “1999年国内生产总值为82054亿元..”…”年末汇率8.2793元人民币兑1美元…”

    the 10 folds nominal increase was due to very fast growth, inflation, exchange rate, and 2 GDP calculation adjustments,if I remember right at 16.7% and 6.7%
    ……..
    “They have cat farms. Tens of thousands of cats are raised to be eaten every year….They mistreat (and eat) dogs…”
    Hey, did someone got the figures wrong? Only ‘Tens of thousands…’? China has 1.4 billion people and cats and dogs(definitely not classified endangered species) aren’t meaty animals and there’s no industrial dogs and cats farming in china. And china consumes well over 80 million tons of meat of cute animals like chicken, pigs(biologists could tell you pigs are quite smart),cattle…
    ………
    Seems people here still can’t comprehend trillions(US $) per year of domestic Chinese investment and keep claiming Chinese fast growth is in debt to pittance of US investment. Do they know how much it costed to build the Chinese hi-speed train network or china’s 1.77 billion KWatt electricity generation capacity?

    • Replies: @ltlee
  13. dearieme says:

    I can believe all sorts of interesting things about China, many of them to her credit. But what I can’t believe is that anyone believes the government’s economic statistics. Hell I don’t believe the US or UK government economic statistics. I’d have to be clinically insane to believe China’s.

    • Replies: @Lin
  14. republic says:

    A great you tube channel to understand the reality of china minus the propaganda

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgFP46yVT-GG4o1TgXn-04Q

    has over 600,000 subscribers

    China Uncensored

    • Replies: @Lin
  15. you guys with yellow fever are plain losers and annoying as f , people of britpoop background have it the worst just leave us alone ,eventually we will have to ban our women from being around you losers, make up stupid laws if we have to.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Anonymous
  16. Lin says:
    @dearieme

    “But what I can’t believe is that anyone believes the government’s economic statistics..”
    Healthy skepticism isn’t bad; however I would like to point out some rationale:
    1)It’s not in Chinese interest to inflate the GDP figure becos it’s in china’s trade interest to be tagged as a ‘developing country’ which I truly believe is the category china belongs to.
    2)If the 1999-2014 GDP growth record is, say, inflated, it means either of 2 reasons: 1)1999 GDP was understated OR 2)2014 GDP figure was overstated. 2017 per-capita Chinese wages, electricity consumption…and a number of parameters are boardly in line with countries,like mexico, brazil with GDP equal to or slightly higher than China’s.
    3)I’ve hardly read any chinese economists stated chinese GDP in PPP(Purchase Power Parity)terms which would greatly inflate the figure.
    (I only took 1st yr and 2nd yr (micro) economics courses and I’m no economist, but I read something interesting about chinese national accounting: In US, a house/apartment, occupied by the owner and not sublet still contributes to the GDP because it provides housing service to the owners. And it’s calculated annually as a certain % of the market price of the dwelling; but in china it’s calculated as a % of the construction cost.)

  17. Lin says:
    @republic

    A great you tube channel to understand the farce of anti-china propaganda

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgFP46yVT-GG4o1TgXn-04Q

    has over 600,000 subscribers

    China Uncensored

    • Replies: @jim jones
  18. Yee says:

    Lin,

    Even Chinese economist in the neo-liberalism camp believe China’s economic statistics are deliberately under-stated.

    https://finance.sina.cn/china/cjpl/2017-08-16/detail-ifyixtym5534924.d.html?=1&vt=4

    《厉以宁称中国存在大量隐形GDP》

    The govt use different a standard to exclude many economic activities in the statistics. For example,

    — all houses built in rural areas are not counted in GDP;
    — only “above scale” industrial productivities are counted;
    — small restaurants and shops are not counted;
    — only primary production in farming are counted (if you farm rice and chicken, only one of them is counted);
    — all domestic services are not counted

  19. DB Cooper says:
    @Da Wei

    I think a couple of months ago Guardian has a piece titled ‘China war on Christianity’. This is not on the opinion section, it is actually on the News section. People in the West understand China by reading this kind of nonsense, this is why they think they know all about China.

  20. AaronB says:

    Conspicuous to both Violeta and me was evidence of Intelligent Design. Chengdu clearly did not evolve randomly as cities do in the West. Somebody thought about things beforehand. The overhead highways kept heavy traffic flowing.

    Good column in general but it is a serious mistake to think American cities are not designed. The reason they are so soulless and alienating is precisely because they are designed around the interests of big business and cars.

  21. “Ordering beer is the main purpose of any language.”

    Funny, but I’ve found being able to say “Two glasses of Champagne, please” in 12 languages to be infinitely more useful than ordering one beer.

  22. I enjoyed this article.

  23. It seems obvious to me that China owes whatever prosperity it has to America’s incredibly lenient trade policies which opened the door to billions of dollars worth of Chinese goods flowing into the US while a trickle of our goods made its way back. Jimmy Carter gave away the Panama Canal while Nixon opened the door to our former enemy. Even had Nixon not done so I am sure that a following president would have, hopefully with a better trade balance in mind.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  24. Anon[884] • Disclaimer says:

    Many criticisms may be made of the Chinese government, some of them valid, but no other government has lifted so many people out of poverty so fast.

    .

    Well, maybe the average IQ of 105 helps a little…

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  25. Lin says:

    To Fred Reed:

    “after Mao made his greatest contribution to his country–he died–the growth of prosperity astounds..”
    …….
    I have a different opinion:
    1)His greatest mistake was not implementing birth control soon enough and consequently china has a 1.4 billion population which is excessively large. Demographics could take centuries to change.
    2)His greatest achievement is his willingness to question the past. Mao was an intellectual product of the May 4th movement that started in 1919. Its a serious retrospective self-examination or even self-shaming movement. Lu Xun, the most influential Chinese leftist writer in the past century equated Confucist morality/misogyny to ‘cannibalism’. Though Mao was excessively in this regard, he signified renewed dynamism of Chinese civilization.
    There’s no retrospective self-examination movement of comparable scale in Hinduism and Islam. Do people remember that fatwah on Salman Rushdi’s ‘Satanic Verses’?

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @DB Cooper
  26. DB Cooper says:
    @Lin

    Not at all. Chinese culture was severely suppressed because he regard it as the reason for China’s backwardness. Confucius himself was denounced. Anything that symbolizes Chinese cultures were destroyed, like old books, old paintings, old buildings, old temples and other cultural relics. Graves of illustrious people of the past were dug up. It was rumored that had Zhao Enlai not personally intervened and stationed soldiers to guard the forbidden city and others like the Yonghe Gong even those might be destroyed by the Red Guards.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Che Guava
  27. DB Cooper says:
    @DB Cooper

    Do you know that traditional festivals like the mid autumn festival, the Duan Wu festival and the Chong Yang festival were banned? Many traditional practice like giving red packets during the spring festival were banned. If Mao has his way even the Chinese characters will be banned eventually and be replaced by phonetic scripts like they did in Vietnam. The pinyin system is actually a first step towards that goal. For a while if you buy Chinese products during those Mao’s year you won’t found a single Chinese character on the products. Everything is in pinyin. You read the product description and those will be in pinyin rendered in English alphabet.

  28. DB Cooper says:
    @Lin

    The reason of China backwardness has nothing to do with Chinese culture and everything to do with the fact that modern science originates in Europe starting from Copernicus, Galileo, and Newton, which leads to the industrialization of the West, especially Britain. The rest is history. The narrative that China needs to destroy itself culturally in order to modernize is just nonsense. Japan and Korea, the two cultures most resemble China’s were able to modernize without going through anything that remotely resembles the Cultural Revolution.

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Reuben Kaspate
  29. @Achmed E. Newman

    Thanks for an interesting post.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  30. @Anon

    ‘Well, maybe the average IQ of 105 helps a little…’

    Still, previous regimes hadn’t made much headway.

  31. WHAT says:
    @Haxo Angmark

    Fred will shill for anything that is not US. Well, maybe Russia.

    Or maybe I should just say white.

  32. So they decided that Buddhism wasn’t a religion, see, but Chinese culture, and thus OK.

    I’ve long considered Buddhism a philosophy rather than a religion. From what I understand, it neither requires nor forbids belief in a Supreme Being.

    • Replies: @dimples
    , @Carroll Price
  33. Yee says:

    DB Cooper,

    “traditional festivals like the mid autumn festival, the Duan Wu festival and the Chong Yang festival were banned?”

    That’s not true, I just asked my mother.

    There were 3 day-off for Chinese New Year during Cultural Revolution. No day off for other traditional holidays though. But that doesn’t mean they were prohibited, since there were mooncakes and zongzi for sale.

    This policy hasn’t changed until a few years ago. We now add 2 more traditional holidays with 1 day-off, Qingming (清明) and Mid-autumn (中秋).

    As for the Cultural Revolution, I believe it was important in breaking the hierarchy.

    Japan is a still feudalism, even though it’s industrialized. Their politicians are all inherited. Korea is a worse oligarchy than the US. I think there’s little hope for a change for them.

  34. Lin says:
    @DB Cooper

    “The narrative that China needs to destroy itself culturally in order to modernize is just nonsense..”
    I think you stretched a bit too far. I said Chinese must be able to self-examine critically and I didn’t particularly mean’destruction’.
    Culture could be:
    –Internalised/institutionalised
    –External/symbolic
    –time-space interactional like do people remember the past and how to relate to it
    (…throw in yours if you want to..)
    …..
    Facts are
    – Japan used to have a occupational-caste system and it is no more; that Hindustan has a apartheid caste system and many hindu nationalists try to apologeticised it as a ‘spiritual’ class system speaks volumes.
    Something interesting: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/clashes-blocking-women-from-temple-in-india-brings-over-2000-arrests/ar-BBOWHWQ?ocid=spartandhp
    –Polygamy is outlawed in china, korea, japan. If that’s ‘destruction’ of a part of Chinese/East Asian culture, absolutely fine with me.
    –Chinese no longer wear traditional Han or Manchu gowns, also absolutely fine with me.
    ……………..
    There’s a fabulous feature of Chinese culture other people seldom match: We can communicate with the past quite readily: The average Chinese high school grads can read 2000 yrs old texts(albeit with some diffuculy) and the most popular poems are still Tang/Sung classics.I’m sure that’s Chinese culture Mao loved very much; when he wrote poems, he did it classical style.
    —-We have a great sense of continuity even amidst fast change

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  35. Anonymous[346] • Disclaimer says:

    The way the West could defang China is get some Africans or Arabs or other browns in there to subvert their culture and cause discord and social problems. Otherwise in 50 years only the Far East will be the civilized world.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @ia
  36. @Yee

    Well, since you mentioned the moon-cakes, Mr. Yee, here is a Peak Stupidity comparison of Chinese moon-cakes vs the 100-year traditional American moon-pie. Bottom line – you can eat a 1 month old moon pie (washed down with a chcoolate Yoohoo, of course), but not a month-old moon-cake. There’s a piece of egg inside. The Chinese, though they can make some good food sometimes, know squat-all about baking.

  37. @Anonymous

    300 mph, baby! However, practical Chinese high-speed rail aside, this thing is a white (and blue-green) elephant, #346. It is fun, and can get one to near downtown Shanghai right quick, but it’s more of a show-off than a money-making operation ($8 per round trip, and not even close to full).

    • Replies: @Low Voltage
  38. @Colin Wright

    I’m glad you liked it, Colin. Thank you.

  39. Yee says:

    Achmed E. Newman,

    Oh, shut up…What do ignorant foreigners know anything about food.

    Although nobody stores mooncakes for long period of time, but they sure can be. Because the smashed lotus seed stuffing is very sweet, sugar is very good for preserving food. The egg yolk inside is salt preserved and has a lot of oil, so it’s also good for keeping long time.

    As for the high speed rail, between top-tier cities (Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, Shenzheng), they’re making truckloads of money. Not so for the rest, and big losers in western China.

    But it’s true that the purpose of the HSR isn’t making money, it’s for better economic integration of the whole country.

  40. DB Cooper says:
    @Yee

    I never said Spring festival were banned. I mean the traditional practice of giving out red-packets were banned.

    “There were 3 day-off for Chinese New Year during Cultural Revolution. No day off for other traditional holidays though. But that doesn’t mean they were prohibited, since there were mooncakes and zongzi for sale. ”

    That’s what I meant. When I said banned I mean it was not even a holiday. There were of course people still practice some kind of ritual like eating zongzi in a private setting but officially these three festivals were not recognized. This is what I mean by banned.

  41. DB Cooper says:
    @Lin

    But that’s what the Cultural Revolution was supposed to do, the slogan at that time was “to destroy the old in order to establish the new”. Hence massive destruction of things that symbolize Chinese cultures. I agree with self-examine critically and first and foremost it should be applied to the not so distant past of the CR. I notice there is a bit of revisionism regarding the CR in that it is some how needed in order for China to modernize. That is just nonsense as I have said in my past post. If you can read Chinese here is a selected list of destructions during the CR. Mind you this list is by no means exhaustive. It is just a list compiled by someone. I noticed there are a lot more not included.

    https://fredgan.wordpress.com/2010/06/23/毁于文革中的部分全国珍贵文物古迹名录/

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Lin
  42. DB Cooper says:
    @DB Cooper

    By the way whether Mao was real crazy or just using the CR as a pretext to destroy his political rivals I don’t know. But the fact is that many of his one time comrades were eliminated during the CR. By eliminated I mean die an unnatural death in one manner or the other.

  43. @Yee

    I’m not sure who’s the foreigner here. Most of us are Americans on the blog. Yes, there are a few flat-out Commies, such as Mr. Roberts (#8), but he’s OUR Commie.

    You didn’t read my post on the high-speed rail, or I guess the one on the amazing road infrastructure either. I was very impressed partly due to that this was NOT a road anywhere near any 1st-tier cities, but quite the contrary.

    It’d be best to read more and have a sense of humor, Mr. Yee, before spouting off stuff that is mostly in agreement, but in argumentative style. I was talking specifically about the 10 or 15 mile airport-to-city rail in Shanghai.

    No, mooncakes do suck though. The Chinese know squat-all about baking. That’s just a fact, there. I think your reading comprehension skills need some work, but if you are really Chinese, then I am still impressed. The language difference is extreme!

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  44. DB Cooper says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Mooncakes are good. Don’t eat the whole thing at once. Eat a quarter of it and wash it down with a cup of good puer tea.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  45. buckwheat says:

    Compared to almost all the large cities in America hell would look good by comparison. Try walking after dark in downtown Baltimore, Atlanta, Detroit, Flint, St. Louis and any other large city and you’ll find your name in the obits before dawn. And Now that the Democrat loons are back on top it’s only going to get worse.

  46. @Achmed E. Newman

    Yeah! Where’s the profit? If Wall St. can’t make a buck off it, it’s nothing but shit! Imagine how much more profit you could make if you sold cars to a bunch of Uber drivers to drive people to and from the airport. The vehicles would have to be financed, insured, maintained, and then Uber could get a 25% cut on every ride. With all the ensuing auto accidents, there would be a profit on the ambulance rides, surgeries, rehab treatment, or even the funerals. Now that’s profit. Yeah, baby!

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  47. MBlanc46 says:

    The Chinese government didn’t lift so may people out of poverty so fast. The people of the West did, by generously giving the Chinese our economies.

  48. Corvinus says:
    @Haxo Angmark

    “actually, the Gulag in Commie-Capitalist China is bigger than Stalin’s and equally lethal: the Reds shoot 5,ooo people per week just to keep the numbers under control.”

    Citations needed.

    • Replies: @Haxo Angmark
  49. Corvinus says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    China remains a totalitarian state and observably tolerates LESS dissent than America.

    China had a flourishing economy up until the 1830′s, then the British got their peeps hooked on smack (opium). Then the European nations carved out spheres of influence there. Indeed, Mao and Deng put China back on the economic map.

    Religious tolerance is tenuous in China.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Biff
  50. @Corvinus

    here’s my citation, which I take much more seriously than any http://

    a few years ago, while driving cab in a Mexifornia coastal town, I had a young guy in the cab who was about to go to China to do “research on human organs”.

    I said, “ah…whose organs?”

    he said: “the ones they harvest from the prisons and the Gulag…there’s plenty to go around”

    I: “…plenty…?”

    him: “yeah, lots…they shoot around 5,000 prisoners each week, so there’s lots..”

    I: “you’re going to do…THAT?”

    him: “yes, sure. It’s a career opportunity”

    • Replies: @Corvinus
    , @Lin
  51. @Low Voltage

    Uh, yeah, no matter what you think of the Wall Street moneymen*, you don’t go building something to make a loss. That kind of thing puts a real damper on entrepreneurship and progress. Whatever you got against Uber, take it somewhere else. Don’t ride with them.

    Did my anti-Communist language trigger you or something? If so, find a ground, and bring that voltage back down.

    .

    * No, I’m not a fan of the middlemen in most industries, but F.I.R.E. “industries” take the cake.

  52. @DB Cooper

    What if I don’t like tea, Mr. Cooper? They leave the leaves floating around in it. Nah, I’m just giving them a hard time. Chinese people need to learn to take a joke, just like everyone else. How ’bout that old standard, that pee-pee in the Coca-Cola one? Too soon?

    ;-}

  53. DB Cooper says:
    @Corvinus

    “Religious tolerance is tenuous in China.”

    Actually you are almost right. China does not have religious tolerance, period. But this actually misses the whole point. Here is the thing, Americans are lucky that many early prigrims themselves escaped religious persecution in Europe so the founders of the United States enshrined religious tolerance right into the founding documents of the republic and it has work wonders for the US by keeping religious tension in check. China is a different animal. China does not have religious tolerance but China has religious promiscuity, which is even better. If only you know how Chinese people sees religion you will be shocked or even disturbed because it is outright sacrilegious from the point of view of the West. May be Chinese people should start lecturing to the Americans not to be so touchy in regards to religions. For example if you are a Protestant it is beneficial for you to also attend Catholic mass and go to Mosque to worship Allah at the same time because you will only get more blessings. This is of course crazy from the point of view of Westerners and Middle Easterners but this is how Chinese people sees religion. And it saves the Chinese people from having any religious war in their history.

  54. jim jones says:
    @Lin

    China is worse than North Korea:

    • Agree: Agent76
    • Replies: @Lin
  55. dimples says:
    @Rex Little

    You won’t get Buddhism unless or until you understand that it is based on what we would normally call the supernatural. The zeroth Noble Truth is that the world is a psychic continuum. The existence of deities large or small is not particularly relevant to this fact.

  56. Yee says:

    Achmed E. Newman,

    “there are a few flat-out Commies, such as Mr. Roberts (#8), but he’s OUR Commie.”

    Wish I could say the same about OUR Neo-liberalists who want to privatize everything so someone can get a profit out of everything. But sadly there’s an ocean of them in China. They should go to America en masse, to spew their poison there. You’d like them, Western media are praising them anyway.

    In exchange, I’ll gladly take Mr. Godfree Roberts, at least he has never advocated more profits for the rich. Since I’m not Rockefeller, JP Morgan or Rothschild, I have no use for bull$hit such as rich getting richer is best for us poor.

    The magnetically levitated train in Shanghai you talk about, it isn’t a show-off rail, it’s a test rail.

    It was built before China started for real the high speed rail project. 2 bunches of technos argued about whether we should build magnetic or wheel rail back then. The government couldn’t decide, so 2 short test-rail were built, and the wheel rail won.

    Shanghai Mag-lev end up being the only of its kind in China. It was vestige of a lost battle. Hope you had enjoy it. It wasn’t for the convenience of travellers.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  57. Corvinus says:
    @Haxo Angmark

    “here’s my citation, which I take much more seriously than any http://”

    A made up story is not a source. Don’t you have more Jewess photos to procure?

  58. Lin says:
    @Haxo Angmark

    That young guy was likely conned by an unscrupulous ‘investment consultant’. If he wanted to harvest human body parts, look no further than good old USA where 100s of 1000s died on drug abuses or related causes

  59. Lin says:
    @jim jones

    China worse than N.Korea?
    Hell, of course. I once administrated a community(amateur’s) astronomy observatory equipped with a dome and a 16″ Ritchey Chretien telescope and I can tell the urban ‘light pollution’ in Chinese cities is much worse than in N.Korea.
    …..
    Besides, US has more thorough(yes, I mean better) punishment methodology against hard core criminals judging from the % of people as jail inmates. China is something like 15% of US figure.

  60. Lin says:
    @DB Cooper

    I must point out something:
    1)relics,though important to many are still mostly symbolic. Nothing beat the history treatises of the 24 (or 25?) dynasties.
    2)Ever wonder why ancient relics could last so long? Tell you the fact that they have been regularly restored, rebuilt, re-furbished. Just rebuild those ‘relics’ mashed by the red guards. NO problemo.
    …..
    BTW, I live in Hongkong, The HK trams(double deck streetcars) are many decades old and actually the first batch was shipped from UK a century ago. Working antics,cheap transport and also tourist attraction. Why do they last so long? The answer is they have been rebuilt inside out many times.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  61. ltlee says:
    @Lin

    Some Americans still have a major disconnect with reality. More rude awakening for them in foreseeable future likely. The following PwC estimate could be viewed as one writing on the wall.

    “PwC estimates that the United States and China are set to capture a full 70 percent of the $15.7 trillion that AI will add to the global economy by 2030, with China alone taking home $7 trillion. Other countries will be left to pick up the scraps, while these AI superpowers will boost productivity at home and harvest profits from markets around the globe.” (AI Superpower)

    • Replies: @Lin
  62. @Yee

    (Mr. Yee, there is a gray reply button, which will help make it clear who you are replying to and provide a link-back – just a suggestion.)

    I’ll take your word on the story of the Shanghai maglev train, but that doesn’t stop it from being a white elephant (I mean, why not do the test run on a 5 mile track at ground level, in a less expensive area, versus all that elevated structure?). I did like the train ride – for $4 each one way, we went to downtown, and sometimes you just feel the need for speed.

    If you are in China, then, Mr Yee (not sure if you ever said), than I’d go for that trade of yours. You stay, and bring Mr. Godfree over, as the ghost of Chairman Mao could really use a coupla Commies like you two. I only want Libertarians though, that is, people that understand free markets.

    Now many a Chinaman (and, woman, YES, and woman) is very much a free-marketer at heart. When Mr. Deng took over and freed up the markets*, that’s when things got so much better. You apparently like being poor, Mr. Yee, or at least everyone to be equally poor. I know a family there who told me that in the late 1970′s crime was non-existent. Yes, it was due to Chairman Mao! He made the people so poor and miserable that there was absolutely nothing worth stealing. So, you know, there was that…

    Please don’t confuse the modern crony-capitalism, in which the government is involved with big-biz via regulation, vs. any kind of free market. I think that there are not many people in China who really do understand the freedom that once existed in America. It’s beyond their imaginations, which may be due to the fact that they’ve lived always close together for thousands of years. Even in small villages, the 200 people live together. That’s not really the American way, though it may have to be when we get to a billion freakin’ people. However, the Chinese work hard and have a genetic knack for business, albeit not always fairness.

    I don’t know what excuse American Commies have, though, for not being able to imagine freedom. Socialism and Communism are concepts that even kids of Kindergarten age know are completely anti-human-nature. However, 13 years of modern compulsory schooling, and usually 4-8 more after that, can beat the common-sense out of the best of ‘em, I guess.

    I’ll say what’s good about China and what’s bad about China, Mr. Yee, so there’s no need to be defensive about it. HERE. As an example, I was fairly impressed with the Chinese free-market style health care, and this is from personal experience – Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, and postscript.

    .
    .

    * starting in the southeast in Guangdong. Man, Shenzhen went from some small plots of farmland to a manufacturing powerhouse for the world in, what, 3 decades, tops?

    • Replies: @Vidi
  63. @Rex Little

    All religions, including Christianity are based on various levels and combinations of superstition and philosophy.

  64. Yee says:

    Achmed E. Newman,

    The “reply” button doesn’t work, none of the buttons works. So I can’t use them.

    I’m not a raillroad expert, but going from common sense, a test rail needs to be able to test all features. 5 miles probably barely enough for start and brake. It’s elevated because it must be built in such a way. The rail can’t take any sinking of the ground. But a rail on the ground always sinks a little and not evenly. This is why mag-lev is 3 times more expensive to build than wheel rail. It was built in an expensive city because they wanted to be able to link it to network in the case it got chosen.

    I live in Guangzhou, the general area of your travel. Health care isn’t free market at all. Hospitals are almost all government owned (I personally don’t know any that isn’t but it’s possible they exist), Treasury directly pays the salaries of the doctors and nurses.

    The health care service you’re impressed with has always been fiercely criticized. I guess you have low expectations on public services from your govt. Not so for us.

    I have no interest in discussing rhetoric concepts like “freedom”. As for “against human nature”, what do you think your tens of thousands laws are for? If not to stop you from doing things by your “human nature”?

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    , @utu
  65. Lin says:
    @ltlee

    (Do you live in Toronto?)
    Some of the posters who bad mouthed Chinese achievement are misinformed or victims of US disindustrialisation. The latters just picked handy targets like mexico, china,…. While they actually have my sympathy, they must realise they’ll not be benefited even manufacture of low value products return to US.

    https://www.economist.com/business/2017/01/14/adidass-high-tech-factory-brings-production-back-to-germany

    ………….
    The others obviously are propagandists(paid or unpaid)and one can see the shadows of FLGoons or dalai’s bum boys…(I can throw in more..)

  66. DB Cooper says:
    @Lin

    Buildings can be restored, but old books and antiques that were burnt and smashed cannot be restored. I have personally heard a story from some one that their ancestral genealogy book compiled over several centuries were burnt during the Cultural Revolution. There were natural features that were permanently scarred and cannot be restored. If you go to Guilin Seven Star Cave today, right at the entrance of the cave you will notice there is a string of huge characters something like ten feet by ten feet in size and probably a feet deep carved onto the side of the cave wall. It is some kind of slogan during the Cultural Revolution. This is permanently scarred and is un-restorable that’s why you can still see it to this day. It is really an eye sore. When China first open up Guilin became a natural tourist attraction especially for overseas Chinese but Seven Star Cave was closed during those early years and I always wonder why because Seven Star Cave is so famous. Now I think I know the answer. The Chinese government doesn’t want to embarrass itself for desecrating such a well-known scenic icon in front of their overseas compatriots, especially in those early years when the Cultural Revolution was still fresh in people’s memory.

    • Replies: @Lin
  67. @Yee

    Nope, you’re not a railway expert, so now you’re just bullshtitting about it. It’s a white elephant.

    I was not writing about the Guangdong area in my posts on Chinese healthcare. You should read my posts before commenting back. No, I don’t have expectations on ANY service from MY government. That shows your STATIST attitude right there, Mr. Yee. I don’t want the government in my business period. If you think these people are YOUR government, why don’t you tell one of them exactly what to do – after all he is a public SERVANT, right? Just try bossing around a government official in any country, and see how that pans out.

    Again, you’re not reading the post that I’ve helpfully linked to for you. Human nature says you’ve got your stuff, and I’ve got mine. If I don’t take care of my stuff, I would not expect you to be forced to share your stuff that you’ve been working hard to take good care of, I mean, that is, unless I were a Communist. Then I would expect you to.

    Your lack of understanding the concept of freedom is very common, even in young people in this country. It’s just a complete failure of the imagination, and I don’t think it’s anything you should go get professional help for, or anything. It’s just that, if the Commies come to fuck with you, Mr. Yee, then you completely deserve it.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  68. Yee says:

    Achmed E. Newman,

    Well then, enjoy the f#cking you are getting from your capitalists and tell your fellow coyntrymen don’t complain. It’s clearly what you want.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  69. Vidi says:

    For anyone who knows what China was before Deng Xiaoping took over in 1978, after Mao made his greatest contribution to his country–he died

    Under Mao, China’s growth was 6.4 percent a year on average, or about the same as now (6.5%). Getting an enormous country moving is one of the hardest jobs possible: as the saying goes, the first million dollars of a fortune are always the hardest to earn. Mao did it without borrowing — as China was under US sanctions — and that is nearly impossible, especially for a giant country. Mao had to be one of the greatest leaders ever, which is why the West likes to trash him.

    Deng Xiaoping and his successors had it relatively easy.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  70. Vidi says:
    @Simply Simon

    It seems obvious to me that China owes whatever prosperity it has to America’s incredibly lenient trade policies which opened the door to billions of dollars worth of Chinese goods flowing into the US while a trickle of our goods made its way back.

    Yes, it is very unfair. China sends immense amounts of manufactured goods to the U.S., and the U.S. pays for it all with dollars conjured out of thin air. Not content with such a lopsided arrangement, the fat Americans whine loudly that the Chinese are taking advantage of them.

    • Agree: Spisarevski
    • Replies: @MMinLamesa
  71. Vidi says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I’ll take your word on the story of the Shanghai maglev train, but that doesn’t stop it from being a white elephant (I mean, why not do the test run on a 5 mile track at ground level, in a less expensive area, versus all that elevated structure?).

    Because a test track in the boondocks wouldn’t get traffic. Presumably one of the goals was to see whether maglev trains could handle heavy usage, be reliable, and be maintainable. A test track wouldn’t tell you that.

  72. Vidi says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    No, I don’t have expectations on ANY service from MY government. That shows your STATIST attitude right there, Mr. Yee. I don’t want the government in my business period.

    Ah, the usual libertarian screed. You don’t need help, so how big a Mafia gang can you fight by yourself?

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  73. @Vidi

    I’m not sure, but it sure helps to be in a country in which the 2nd Amendment still (mostly) exists. Libertarians never told you that they can’t hang out with other people, have they? Where do you get this nonsense?

    • Replies: @Vidi
  74. @Vidi

    Growth is great, if you’re still alive to experience it. Did you Commies come to this thread under the orders of Chairman Godfree?

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Vidi
  75. Lin says:
    @DB Cooper

    Old books? What old books vanished? Something even the 1st emperor of Qin failed to burn that many books. It wasn’t too hard to hide bundles of bamboo stripes I bet. Some old 2000-3000 yrs old history texts had disappeared because better ones took their places, particularly after the Grand historian Sima Qian finished his great work.
    Here I’m talking about books, not antiques..
    …………
    ” ancestral genealogy book compiled over several centuries were burnt during the Cultural Revolution…”
    I admit it’s bad but lets face the fact. Very few families except the old elite kept such ancestral genealogy records. Overall it has little impact on the cultural scene.
    The only person I know who had such ancestral genealogy record was my former high school history teacher, Mr. Chao, who claimed he was a male descendent of the Sung royal house and once showed us his picture book of his royal ancestors during the class.
    ….
    Funny thing is its only recently I learned that I probably had a 19th century south Asian ancestor and probably also a muslim ancestor. Not sure if they were the same person.
    The average person just don’t bother

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  76. Lin says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    No. I came to this thread after I heard something from a winged naked humanoid belle flying over me during my dream:”Lin of Nazareth, go forth to Unz’s forum and shower fire and brimstones on those sinners…”
    I’m a Christian(of alternative conviction) in the sense I admire Jesus as a moral giant(but I no longer attend church services)
    I’m also consider myself a part time muslim because I try my best to keep a halal diet and I admire Mr. Mohamed as a great tribal chief who single handed initiated a major civilisation
    If I have time, I’ll expound my theology.

    • LOL: utu, jim jones, Escher
    • Replies: @A Bit Sandy
  77. DB Cooper says:
    @Lin

    “Old books? What old books vanished? ”

    Here is just an example of old books dating back to the Ming dynasty were burnt during the Cultural Revolution. I am sure there are more of that.

    https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/沈从文

  78. @Lin

    No. I came to this thread after I heard something from a winged naked humanoid belle flying over me during my dream:”Lin of Nazareth, go forth to Unz’s forum and shower fire and brimstones on those sinners…”

    Hilarious. Don’t pay any attention to Achmed Et Al. With that single burn alone, you clearly have a place here. One of the things that I enjoy most about the Unz review is that I hear perspectives in the comment section that I generally don’t find elsewhere. If the perspective is backed with a biting wit, well that’s just a bonus…

  79. Vidi says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Libertarians never told you that they can’t hang out with other people, have they?

    A group of people cooperating on mutual defense: this not a government? As usual, the Libertarians prove they haven’t thought much.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  80. @Haxo Angmark

    I was told by an anatomy prof that all of the human skulls and skeletons used in anatomy classes in US universities come from Chinese mass graves from the Cultural Revolution. Except for the human infant and fetal skulls which also come from China. They apparently have a lot of those to sell too. But everything is very neat and orderly for sure. When my sister visited there she said the public toilets were monstrous squatters with bad plumbing, but every one had an old lady to hand you a towel.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    , @Anon
  81. Vidi says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Growth is great, if you’re still alive to experience it.

    Several years in a row with little rain — is that Mao’s fault?

    He couldn’t even borrow some money to import food, as China was under US sanctions. So if anyone is to blame for the starvation in the late ’50s and early ’60s, it’s America.

    A richer country might have been able to transport food from other regions of the land, but China could not for lack of roads, a lack of vehicles, and a lack of fuel. Indeed, this shows the lowliness of Mao’s starting point, how desperately poor the country was when he took over — and it proves the greatness of his achievement, that he succeeded in spite of the enormous handicaps.

    Did you Commies come to this thread under the orders of Chairman Godfree?

    No, we noticed the smell here. We’re Communists, so we take seriously our duty to the commons. We brought some turbofans (produced in China, of course). What have you been eating lately?

  82. @Vidi

    A group of people cooperating on mutual defense: this not a government?

    Nope, not at all. Ever heard of a militia? If you knew the history of THIS country, you would be familiar. It’s not too late to learn though.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  83. Vidi says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    A group of people cooperating on mutual defense: this not a government?

    Nope, not at all. Ever heard of a militia?

    What stops a militia from splintering into violently competing factions? Each faction will need funds, or it will die. The factions that gather funds by voluntary donation will lose to the factions that can gather more funds by involuntary contributions, i.e. by taxation. Isn’t taxation what governments do?

    Don’t tell me the splintering won’t happen, because it did happen in the Lebanese civil war only four decades ago.

    It’s not too late to learn though.

    It is certainly not too late for Libertarians to learn, but they tend to be hard of learning.

  84. utu says:
    @Yee

    Next time that Newman the libertarian comes to China you have my OK to convert him to body parts. And sell them on free market, so he would approve it.

    • LOL: Biff
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  85. Biff says:
    @Corvinus

    China remains a totalitarian state and observably tolerates LESS dissent than America.

    There hasn’t been dissent in America since the South secceded from the North – the rest can, and does get ignored, or as in the Occupy Movement – get swatted like a fly.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  86. @bossel

    Abysmal quality maybe but Chinese cities look a great deal nicer than ones in the Rustbelt or much of the US interior.

  87. @Red Pill Angel

    These days you’d see more poverty in the average Michigan trailer park than China.

    It is pointless to discuss what China was doing 50 years ago. Human civilization began in Africa before Eurasia…it has not continued to do so.

    If you had to parachute at night into East Los Angeles or Flint or Beijing…you’d choose Beijing.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  88. @Yee

    YEE

    It is not as if capitalists do not make money in China. They do. But not quite at the same cost to the general public. And many Chinese are poor, but somehow there are less beggars and homeless as the US.

  89. @Lin

    There is far less crime in China or even in poorer places in Asia as there is in a US city.

    You won’t witness outbursts on public buses.

    There are no crackheads or tweakers lurking downtown around bus stations in China.

  90. @Yee

    YEE

    Obviously Americans love Chinese food. But the fact of the matter is few Americans IN Asia no much about the local food. They quickly find a restaurant where they can eat the food they are familiar with.

    Visit a McDonald’s in any Chinese city. You’ll see more whites there than at tourist sites, no?

    My own wife has learned to prepare different food for me.

  91. @Godfree Roberts

    Tell us about that “Christian uprising” which killed 30 million Chinese.

    As to what economic success China owes to Mao I am sceptical that the per capita growth was any more reliably measured before 1975 than it is now. However, my more confident quibbles focus on

    (a) the idea that China’s growth from a very low 1949 base should be compared with that of countries that had no human and physical infrastructure. It wasn’t quite like Germany 1945 but it wasn’t like Borneo either.

    (b) Just as Adenauer could only extremely tenuously be credited with Germany’s revival Mao’ s reputation could only be enhanced by the very fact that skilled people got on with business in his vast country without any interference by him. When he did interfere, as in The Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution his contribution was negative.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  92. @Godfree Roberts

    Regarding Soviet union you use wrong kind of statistics. The growth should be counted from 1928 till 2941. There is no country that grew as fast as Soviet union then. In 1928 USSR was third world country with very little industrial base. In 1941 it was fully industrialized nation that outmanufactured the whole of Europe during the war. The country was destroyed by war and lost 27 million hence the period you use is wrong. The calculations should be resumed after the rebuilding of war damage was finalized. Although Soviet speed of rebuilding the country after the war damage especially the one suffered by USSR has no parallels. I was living in China back then in 1988-1989 as exchange student and the country was very poor. This is after almost 40 years after the reunification. Soviet union was developed wealthy country 40 years after 1928 despite terrible destruction by the 2ar in between. Mao greatest contribution was him ending Chinese time of troubles and uniting the country.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  93. I spent one day in Chengdu in 1989 and then a couple days in 2000. The food is the best thing I loved there. Almost like Chongqing. Ah, ma la.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  94. Che Guava says:
    @DB Cooper

    I like your comments on this (also read the others).

    Still use a mouse-pad, for decoration, not need, the one I am using now is from the National Museum in Taiwan.

    Received from my Taiwan-born friend whose father was in the Imperial Army.

    Noises come from mainland China about the ‘theft’ of cultural treasures by the 国民党, Kuomintang, but if they had not taken them to the Republic of China (Taiwan), the Red Guards would likely have destroyed most of the works.

    It is a point of which I am always conscious.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  95. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @britishbrainsize1325ccsnicker

    Based and 1325ccsnicker-pilled!

  96. Chinese economic miracle is almost 100% USA made. Without greed of American capitalists who saw it beneficial to move manufacturing to China , China would have never achieved this level of growth and economic development. So, America basically created own rival and managed antagonize Russia too.

  97. @Biff

    OCCUPY WALL STREET

    The oligarchy does not really care if the poor sleep outside in tents. They could have occupied Wall Street for 10 years and it would be business as usual.

    Dissenters in the US have no money. It is one reason the hippie movement eventually disappeared and Abbie Hoffman became a Wall Street stockbroker.

    • Replies: @Rich
  98. @Lin

    Besides, US has more thorough(yes, I mean better) punishment methodology against hard core criminals judging from the % of people as jail inmates.

    The US has a severe ‘Feral Niggers’ problem – a violent underclass of unemployable retards.

  99. @Sergey Krieger

    Absolutely Sichuanese cuisine is magnificent even by the high standards of Chinese cuisine.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    , @Escher
  100. @Jeff Stryker

    If you had to parachute at night into East Los Angeles or Flint or Beijing…you’d choose Beijing.

    Absolutely the Chinese have a swift zero tolerance legal culture where the gap between arrest and execution is 2 yrs!! And they execute people for non violent crimes like drug dealing. One of the benefits of not being colonized by the west was that the Chinese developed their own organically developed legal system which works very well. If they had got colonized they would be using that rubbish Anglo-Saxon legal system which only works for a high IQ and high trust society. As the west gets more diverse the system will break down and in the future you will have ‘Judge Dredds’ and Duterte style death squads keeping the peace.

  101. Chinese Emperors were builders, so the Chinese like to build.
    But why are there so many Chinese. Maybe because they did not have a real war?

    • Replies: @Reuben Kaspate
  102. @Grahamsno(G64)

    When you use words like that it reduces the quality of the blog-there is no need to use slurs on it. I agree with you of course. But words like inner-city black or Hood Rat are more appropriate.

    We don’t want this site to get banned.

    Yes, many of them are unemployable and borderline-retarded. But to use slurs takes away the legitimacy of your post.

  103. I remember my first interest in Chinese people was aroused by John Steinbeck through his novel ‘East of Eden’. Now I wonder whether there exists a Chinese Fred Reed among those billions.

  104. Escher says:
    @Haxo Angmark

    That China has a massive bubble blown up is undeniable. However, so does the rest of the industrial and industrializing world.
    China has, however, taken control of a huge chunk of the world economy, and that translates to massive economic and eventually military power.

  105. “A friend who lived in Chengdu for several years until recently asserts that there is close to zero street crime.”

    In other words, no blacks and or mestizos live in that part of China.

  106. Although the USA isn’t mentioned in comparison, knowing what we know about Kiko here, the theme of this article is clearly “See, yet ANOTHER place in the world better than America besides Mexico!”

    People can choose to waste their time in the comments here arguing with the Chinese supremacists that fly around Unz articles similar to this one like moths to a flame, or the self hating guilt ridden white trolls who debate upon false premises, but it isn’t necessary. All one has to do is observe: Between the two countries (China and the US) where are the people going?

    Answer: The Chinese are coming here. For a whole bunch of dishonest and exploitative reasons (freedom is not even a consideration.)

    The following video is a perfect metaphor for the hive minded Chinese and their intentions concerning America and its inventiveness and prosperity:

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  107. @DB Cooper

    The old prime minister of Japan, one called Tanaka, was once asked how he relaxed to which he had so replied that he read classical Chinese poetry… China has enough ancient and admirable culture of its own without having to go look for the Kardashians to modernize it’s economy.

  108. ” Chengdu clearly did not evolve randomly as cities do in the West ”
    Where in the west did cities evolve randomnly ?

    • Replies: @Random Smartaleck
  109. Rich says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    The “hippie” movement disappeared because it was ridiculous. Filthy people living on the street, begging for cash… oh wait, that’s every day in NYC, so maybe it didn’t disappear.

  110. Lin says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    “Chinese economic miracle is almost 100% USA made…”
    ………
    I truly love this ps of propaganda repeated so helplessly and frequently. Yes go ahead and say it as often as you could.
    Here’s one ps of food for thought

    https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/green/reports/2017/05/15/432141/everything-think-know-coal-china-wrong/

  111. Yes, they did! They allowed the deranged Christians of the West, conned by their “older brothers” the Jews, into transfering their hard-earned scientific and technological knowhow of centuries in a few short years for pittance. And you say that Chinese government didn’t…

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  112. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    Or maybe, just maybe the Chinese are “lovers” and not warriors.

  113. Lin says:
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    “The US has a severe ‘Feral Niggers’ problem – a violent underclass of unemployable retards”
    Every societies have their undesirable elements and really no big deal. My relatives range from senior executives(Health care, financial),labourers, to underground casino bouncer.
    Regarding the US case, as a compassionate person, I suggest the following solutions:
    1)free CLINICAL skin bleaching and plastic surgery to turn blacks into Nordic looking whites and massive spendings on ‘blacks into whites’ genetic research. There should be a ‘race difference elimination’ Dept in Washington with budget matching that of defense dept. Yes, do it on war footing

    2)Decriminalise certain activities like
    –Drug/opioid use (here the yanks are going steady)
    –Re-categorize rapes as unauthorized trepassing to (literally) ‘private’ areas

    3)Tax cut for ‘black and white’ mixed race families

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  114. @Lin

    For obvious reason you do not like the truth. Take away massive manufacturing and technological transfer from USA and the west and also Soviet help … and there would be no China as we know it now.

    • Agree: Clyde
    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Jesse James
    , @Vidi
  115. @utu

    I know which parts you’re after, Mr. Physicist Utu – I’m pretty sure you prefer that kind of thing live. No, thank you, but there are lots of tiger parts you may want to sample.

    To all the Commies that follow Comrade Godfree’s alt-history here on unz, I appreciate W.o.Oz’s quick effort, but there’s no way I can give you a history lesson today. I do have family/friends who have grandparents that starved to death because your hero, the guy you think was the cat’s Mao, decided he knew what’s best as supreme leader. The last anyone heard, they were eating grass and bark (did someone in the Central Politburo screw up the food-pyramid diagram? Maybe that was all it was??)

    To increase steel production for the glorious shithole of a Motherland that it was, poor Chinamen were instructed to build small furnaces-of-the-people. The farming work was let go so that villages and towns could meet the goals of the shithole Motherland. It turns out, when you have central authority, many times not the brightest of bulbs*, deciding how men & women** should spend their productive time, rather than people deciding for themselves out of that nasty greed***, things don’t always work out per the 5-year plan. Some say only 30,000,000 souls perished from hunger – those are the people we call the “apologists”.

    .

    * Sorry, bulbs were too dear, then, not the greatest of idioms there…

    ** because the Chinese were on the forefront of feminism.

    *** you know, the kind of greed that makes one want his children to have a better life and all – capitalist fucking roaders, all of em!

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @Biff
  116. @MikeatMikedotMike

    Yes, you make a very good point, Mike, that says it all. Where are the people going, indeed?

    Now, in. the virtual world, the only reason these Commies come on Mr. Unz’s fine website, is that they have to be too careful what they write on the Chinese internet. They may praise all things China, but it might turn out that their writings are not politically correct per the current Chinese regime. I was amazed that I could read American gun web-sites from over there, but I’m told it’s different if you do the writing, not just reading, and from China. (As I wrote above, the internet is getting more non-anonymous now – they want an ID for you to use a computer in an internet cafe. SIM cards are passe, but the stores selling the phones now want ID’s and limit the number of phones per person – yeah, the government’s involved.)

    I give great praise to Mr. Unz for letting 1,000 flowers bloom here, as much as I don’t agree with him on the Hispanic illegal immigration issue. The thing is, contrary to Butcher errr, Chairman Mao, Mr. Unz won’t follow his One Thousand Flowers campaign with the One Hundred Riding Lawnmowers campaign.

    Well, anyone can read my comments here and see that I’m not anit-China, and expecially not anti-Chinese, in general. I just like to write the truth (with some humor that some bamboo-stalk-up-the-ass Chinamen may just not get). There’s good and bad, and I don’t know if Mr. Reed’s 2 weeks there were enough for him to learn of some of it. “Looks ain’t IS, Dano.” – Steve McGarrett

    • Agree: MikeatMikedotMike
    • Replies: @Clyde
    , @Biff
  117. Great article, Fred. I love accounts written by genuine travelers.

  118. pyrrhus says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    The key point overlooked by Fred is that these cities are almost 100% Han Chinese…So of course there is little crime or police activity, just as in Iceland–they are a homogeneous group and highly related. No diversity = no war.

  119. @Grahamsno(G64)

    Yes, it is absolutely fantastic. My favorite. There is few spots in Toronto which are quite close but still not exactly Chongqing.

  120. Clyde says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Chinese Moon Cakes, shown above right, may have been around a while – please be careful, then, they have a chunk of egg inside. https://www.peakstupidity.com/index.php?post=564

    When I lived in the bigger big city (USA) I would hit the Chinese bakeries sometimes. Partly just to gawk at what Chinese consider to be baked goods. Kinda funny-amusing by the way. Such as hiding little cocktail franks in a bun. I liked the roast pork buns. I must have eaten 20 Chinese moon pies over the years and never found an egg in one. Just straight moon pie filling.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  121. Lin says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    “Take away massive manufacturing and technological transfer from USA and the west..”
    Look, whoever u’re, just ignore at the moment the right up front fact that china HAS BEEN under severe tech sanction from USA, why don’t u give me some examples of your ‘massive manufacturing and technological transfer’ from the yanks?
    –Yes, being said, Chinese are definitely indebt to the Russians before the sino-russia split in the early 60s. If I remember rite, china, as a good student managed to make mig-15 jet fighters with tech transfer from the willing teacher Russia( Hail Rodina !!!!!!) during the 1950s
    (Once can also throw in the Su-27 fighter deal in the 90s which is more commercial and was incomplete and it took Chinese engineers some years to fill in the gaps)
    –I could name another 2 important tech transfers:
    *** Steel plants with continuous casting tech from japan during the 80s
    ***Partial tech transfer of Spey 202/203(minus some real military components) from UK
    …………
    Serious tech transfer from US, did u say? I really laugh my butt off. Go ahead and give me at least some good examples

  122. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    Chengdu is decidedly of the First World, modern, muscular, appearing to have been recently built

    China is not First World — by definition. the term was coined by Mao and refers to the West. The Second World, by Mao’s definition, was the Soviet Union and its satellites. China is thus, by definition, part of the Third World. So what you mean, Fred, is that the Third World has caught up with, or overtaken, the First World.

    As for intelligent urban design, this appears to be a key area that will enable the Third World to go far ahead of the First World. While North Americans, Brits, etc. borrow their brains out buying houses in what are, mostly, horrible places like London, San Francisco and Toronto, and then pissing away a fortune on transportation and a large part of their lives getting around in a community with a purely accidental form, the Asians, it seems, will increasingly live in places that are fit for human habitation and designed for efficient energy use. Sadly the arrogance, stupidity and corruption of Western leadership seems certain to allow no other course.

  123. anon[308] • Disclaimer says:
    @Yee

    Life in Oligarch owned, USA is different from Life in Paradise riddled America.. ? They tell me the only way to get the good oligarch life is either to win the lottery or be elected to one of the 527 salaried jobs.

    Interesting.. I just came from the Internet seeking to find examples of the scheme but could not find
    what you are talking about? could you post an example, or two,
    I know of several private companies seeking to attract Chinese in order to exploit them, and several universities seeking to get good students, but no USA effort?

  124. Clyde says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Can’t the Chinese sign up for a VPN service? To avoid Gov’t hassles? I see them as low as $40 per year due to competition. There is a profusion of VPN companies out there.
    BTW Opera browser has free VPN which I use from time to past a media PayWall. Or limit on how many times a week or whatever you can peruse the (example) Washington Post website.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  125. @Sergey Krieger

    Take away the massive technology transfer and theft of innovation from Great Britain and Germany to the US, and you would have no US as we know it.

    • Agree: RobinG
  126. Good description of Chinese metro areas. I have been to China three times in the last ten years, Fred’s description is pretty much on target.

    One notable (and disturbing) addition. Toddlers everywhere. China has rescinded the “one child policy.” You see toddlers with their parents everywhere. That is not good in a country with a population of that size.

    • Replies: @wayfarer
  127. wayfarer says:
    @Mike from Jersey

    One notable (and disturbing) addition. Toddlers everywhere. China has rescinded the “one child policy.” You see toddlers with their parents everywhere. That is not good in a country with a population of that size.

    I migrate between Yuma Arizona and San Diego California, during the year.

    Same stupid thing is going down in U.S. border towns, clueless people pumping out untold kids.

    Seems like Walmart is a theme park for them, and possibly the next best thing to Disneyland.

    Unchained rug rats, gone wild.

    Fuck it, let’s all just pump out as many babies as we can, and pound the charitable Earth’s environment into one big toxic shithole.

    source: https://mrascience.com/2015/06/15/overpopulation/

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @cassandra
    , @Anon
  128. Start reading Fred’s article and you get to this image:

    He intends for this picture to impress you, dear round-eyed reader. He thinks you don’t already know that the Chinese can build modern things, and that they have rapidly developed their country.

    When I first saw that photo, I thought it was either a rack of equipment at a server farm or part of a beehive.

    Such images are not impressive. They are terrifying, and they reinforce a certain stereotype.

  129. Anonymous[178] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    My general feeling as well. Perhaps China would have developed on its own eventually, but it was certainly sped up by the offshoring of US manufacturing.

    Case in point: If you walk in to a Walmart today, the vast majority of their manufactured goods are made in China.

  130. Anonymous[305] • Disclaimer says:

    Compare:
    The leaders in China are engineers and scientists
    The leaders in the US are lawyers (funded by bankers)

  131. @Buzz Mohawk

    Yeah, they look like the incubator towers from the movie The Matrix:

    Fred’s version of a visual metaphor is seeing pink elephants at the bottom of a bottle of mescal.

  132. cassandra says:
    @ia

    The government corruption is typical third-world. The Chinese are just a bit smarter and disciplined and can conceal better.

    SO different from the Clinton Foundation and Atlantic City realty.

    Dwellers in glass houses…

    • Replies: @ia
  133. Red Freed:

    why mexicans are equals to white americans but not negroes

    why GOD [human-made existence] exist

  134. cassandra says:
    @wayfarer

    Fuck it, let’s all just pump out as many babies as we can, and pound the charitable Earth’s environment into one big toxic shithole.

    We’ve been hearing this warning for quite a while. Europe has been so virtuously proud that they’ve cut down birthrate, and now their elites lament that they have to import young labor to support an aging demographic. This was totally predictable, but confronting the issue was unfashionable.

    I don’t know whether the Chinese government is keeping an eye on the age distribution of their demographic, but I’d expect them to be, and to act accordingly. Chinese policy may be dictated by fiat, but Western behavior seems to be governed by fad.

  135. @Clyde

    I don’t know the answer to that. Perhaps that’s a good way for them to get around the censorship. $40 per year sounds pretty good, and thanks for the tip on Opera, Clyde.

    • Replies: @Random Smartaleck
    , @Clyde
  136. cassandra says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    Without greed of American capitalists who saw it beneficial to move manufacturing to China , China would have never achieved this level of growth and economic development.

    It might have taken longer, but why would you think that technological development was beyond the Chinese people? It was just a matter of time.

    IMHO, American capitalists saw that Chinese development was coming, and decided to cash in on the cheap labor. This had the added benefit of reducing American union influence. So, it’s a realization of Lenin’s comment (I think), that a capitalist is someone who will sell you the rope you need to hang him.

    • Replies: @Clyde
    , @Sergey Krieger
    , @Vidi
  137. DB Cooper says:
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Those apartments are actually pretty nice if you look up close.

  138. @Clyde

    See, I guess these people didn’t want to click the link, but I wrote this humorous post, Can we put this whole Moon-Pie vs. Moon-Cake issue behind us?, to celebrate the 100th year of the Moon Pie. The Chinese ones are moon CAKES, I’d thought anyway.

    I knew a lady whose whole family went to China where she was trying to start up a bakery. She was a very good baker, as I’d tried her cherry cheescake. Mmmmm… I’m pretty sure 99% of Chinese people have never tasted any good baking (they’ve got their steamed bread, but it ain’t no German Black Forest Cake, or even good Italian fresh bread, I can tell you). Anyway, that family wanted to evangelize Christianity to the customers, as they felt that was their calling. After one year of trying to get through the hurdles to set up the bakery, without making any bribes, they had to give up and go home.

    Edit – you already put my link in, thanks!

  139. ia says:
    @cassandra

    Well, my definition of 3rd world corruption is that 5% of the population runs everything and owns everything. Then, you’ve got another 5-10% of higher level cadres who do their bidding. And then you’ve got everyone else. For instance, in China, if you have a grievance, you can only appeal to the party cadres where you were born. If you move you have zero recourse, and of course nobody can vote.

    The Clinton Foundation is one of thousands of NGOs. Judicial Watch (https://www.judicialwatch.org) is another NGO that uses courts and laws to hold powerful people accountable. Nothing like that in China.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @cassandra
  140. Anon[131] • Disclaimer says:
    @wayfarer

    Your eye test failed you. Here is the fact: 1.62 births per woman in 2016 in China, compared to America’s 1.80 births per woman in the same year. According to the latest stats from last month, (Oct 2018) China’s birth rate is set to decline further this year as well as over the next few years.

    You saw a lot of toddlers, not because Chinese people have a lot of kids. Even if the birth rate is as low as it is, you would still see a lot babies simply because there is over 1.3 billion people in China. Basic math, no?

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  141. @jilles dykstra

    Where in the west did cities evolve randomnly ?

    I think he means “organically,” which is anything but random. Fred obviously has little knowledge of urban geography. Chengdu gives the impression of heavy design most likely because its modern development was done in huge swathes at the same time on a blank canvas (blank due to government sanctioned obliteration of anything preexisting). The historically normal pattern for cities is development occurring incrementally over long periods and constrained by past landuse — thus the difference.

  142. @Lin

    When were the various coal facilities built, relative to one another?

    • Replies: @Clyde
  143. @Achmed E. Newman

    Opera is a Chinese-owned outfit now — word to the wise…

    • Replies: @Clyde
  144. DB Cooper says:
    @ia

    A lot of the NGOs are just political agenda driven paid lobbying groups, the epitome of corruption. And I am surprise you use the Clintons as an example of holding powerful people accountable. The Clintons are corrupted to the core. If they are not Hillary won’t be the candidate running against Trump, it should be Sanders but the well connected superdelegates decided to nominate Clinton. Are the superdelegates elected? No. So all this voting talk is a farce and doesn’t mean squat.

    • Agree: Biff
  145. Clyde says:
    @Random Smartaleck

    Opera is a Chinese-owned outfit now — word to the wise…-

    Thanks. Thought is was still owned by Norwegians.

  146. Clyde says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Opera- You have to drill into setting to find the free VPN. Once you enable it you can toggle it on-off direct from the browser …IOW without having to go into settings.

    • Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)
  147. Clyde says:
    @cassandra

    So, it’s a realization of Lenin’s comment (I think), that a capitalist is someone who will sell you the rope you need to hang him.

    The real capitalist will loan you the fiat money he created out of thin air, to buy the rope to hang him with.

    • Replies: @cassandra
  148. ia says:

    A lot of the NGOs are just political agenda driven paid lobbying groups

    They all are. That’s why they exist.

    Anyway, my original point was that as bad as things are here there’s still a ways to go to fall to China and other 3rd world levels of corruption. Wait until they shut your electricity off and demand bak shish or you won’t get it back. Happened to me once in India

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  149. Clyde says:
    @Random Smartaleck

    When were the various coal facilities built, relative to one another?

    https://appealpower.com/2017/05/21/everything-you-think-you-know-about-coal-in-china-is-wrong/ Where Lin got his graph from. Lots more detail there in the text.
    Says: “While China and the United States have roughly the same land mass, however, China has 1.3 billion people to the United States’ 325 million.”

    My take is we (USA) can afford more coal emissions because we are less population dense. The Chinese ultra critical coal fired plants are 20% more efficient than ours…so what? China’s problem is the coal mines are in its West while it’s manufacturing and population is in its East. And its rail transport sucks so its often easier to buy Australian coal.

  150. Erebus says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    You make grandiose claims about speaking truth, but here you baldly lie by omission:

    The last anyone heard, they were eating grass and bark (did someone in the Central Politburo screw up the food-pyramid diagram? Maybe that was all it was??)

    What you forgot to mention is that a several year drought at the time severely damaged yields and the USA, characteristically putting power before people, refused to sell wheat into a humanitarian disaster.

    Parenthetically, the then independently minded Canada ignored the US embargo and shipped, saving millions. Since then, Canadian expats are treated in a much friendlier way than Americans.

    Yes, the fact that …

    … poor Chinamen were instructed to build small furnaces-of-the-people. The farming work was let go so that villages and towns could meet the goals of the shithole Motherland.

    … as the drought hit didn’t help matters, but that looks more like bad luck than design. Even so, there’s a silver lining to that as well as countless millions of agrarian villagers learned a vital industrial process. An education that helped catapult the real Great Leap Forward in the ’80s.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  151. anon[393] • Disclaimer says:
    @JLK

    why the fuck cuck would you be “all for opportunity for the chinese people”?

    • Replies: @JLK
  152. @cassandra

    Did I tell that? It is not a matter of time but of degree. Chinese are intelligent smart people. But China would not have achieved this sort of growth and share of the world GDP without being inflated by the west through manufacturing base transfer. Now. China was having massive problems in development even after Mao under Deng before the west and USA began that transfer in earnest in 90s. All attempts to emulate Soviet industrialization and scientific progress failed despite USSR providing free and great help in the beginning. China is still buying high tech weapons and technologies from Russia almost 70 years after getting United. Any other proof needed? Seems like something is lacking despite overall IQ and intelligence.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Vidi
    , @cassandra
  153. JLK says:
    @anon

    Opportunity for the Chinese doesn’t necessarily come at the expense of opportunity for Americans.

  154. DB Cooper says:
    @ia

    India is much more democratic than the US in every which way you care to measure except voting frequency. How can India be more corrupt than the US?

    • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
    , @ia
  155. @Erebus

    What you forgot to mention is that a several year drought at the time severely damaged yields and the USA, characteristically putting power before people, refused to sell wheat into a humanitarian disaster.

    I remember this from a conversation on a Godfree Roberts thread. Why in hell should the US have shipped them a damn thing? I really doubt Communist Russia and China would have lifted a finger to help the USA, were it in that situation (though fairly impossible at that point due to that evil Capitalism) . We were enemies. I don’t know anything about the embargo, but just that it’s not to be expected that a country would help out it’s arch-enemies.

    Since then, Canadian expats are treated in a much friendlier way than Americans.

    Who says? The average Chinese person doesn’t know the difference between an American and a Canadian. Do you think they can detect that accent, with the “abouuts” and “eh”s? WTF, man? We are all white ghosts to them.

    Additionally, if you read about the early 1920′s the US Government, under that supervision of future-President Herbert Hoover sent large shipments of food to the USSR to help avert starvation there. The people in China who were eating bark and died were people my friend’s family knew. At the end of the 1970′s their kids have memories of the Mom getting corn with ration cards (things were still really bad). The Mom hated corn until the day she died due to it having been feed corn. Hey, beggars can’t be choosers, but then they have the taste for rice anyway.

    That’s all over with due to the central government, after Mao did his one good deed and kicked it, releasing some control over the population under Chairman Deng. You have no idea of Chinese history if you think that the Great Leap Forward was in the 1980′s. The “Great Leap Forward” was at the end of the 1950′s, and I should have used that name when describing the starvation period, as that was what I was writing about above. Yes, that was the name for the program. You know only the BS history you read off of the idiot Godfree Roberts, obviously.

    Even so, there’s a silver lining to that as well as countless millions of agrarian villagers learned a vital industrial process.

    NO, they didn’t learn squat. You don’t make steel like that. Go ask a Chinaman in the steel business now how you do it. Believe me, they sure know what they’re doing now, cause they don’t have some Moron with Great Power telling them what to do all the time.

    … but that looks more like bad luck than design.

    What’s the opposite of that thing they say – “bad luck follows the STUPID”? Yeah, that’s the one.

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @Anon
    , @denk
  156. @Anon

    I believe Wayfarer and Mike from Jersey were talking about relative numbers, though I don’t want to speak for them. How would you see absolute numbers without taking a census of the country, math whiz? I’m guessing it was in the big city. Shanghai has encouraged people to have kids, as it is so difficult for a family to pay for kids over there, so the younger population is declining in numbers.

    See there has been lots of inflation thanks to a) importation of US inflation due to the Chinese Gov. pegging the Yuan (RMB) to the dollar, in order to keep exports extremely competitive and b) they have their own housing bubble over there, due to people not knowing where else to safely park their savings. It ends up where the Grandmas take care of the kid(s) during the daytime, as both parents have to work their asses off to live there. The only children often end up pretty spoiled these days, as they have 6 adults around to spoil them, and that’s how a parent is gonna be around an only child often, just by nature.

    The city governments have been encouraging people to have more kids, and I’m wondering if the result of that is what these non-Communist Commenters were writing about.

  157. @Sergey Krieger

    I really hate to ni hai-Jack this thread, but we should really have a contest here. Which Communism was best?

    On the one hand, in China it was shorter, only 3 decades or so of hard-core Communism, in which fewer than 30,000,000, OK, 40,000,000 million souls perished via starvation, so there just wasn’t enough TIME to really double-down and get that “according to his means” shit going. After ending all the “troubles”, Chairman Mao’s purge Great Leap Forward of ’59-’61 and then the Cultural Revolution of ’66-70′s were part of that “uniting the country thing” to make that omelet outta them eggs. No trouble there. Then they had to go all capitalist and screw it all up by making people rich enough to eat enough rice to get diabetes.

    On the other hand, the Soviet Union had 7 decades to have multiple starvation periods, with the wars in between to pick up THE PEOPLE’S spirits a tad. They had enough money to put the 1st man in earth orbit, and another man make the 1st space walk, but the heating bills had to suffer a bit. We got some good writing out of the whole thing, as life in the Gulag did wonders to inspired Alex Solzhenitsyn, or example.

    It’s really a toss up, IMO. You had your bread and cabbage lines in the Motherland of the USSR, but in the other Motherland, China, you had your ration cards for American-sent feed corn. Life was hard, but they all LOVE LOVE LOVED it, or else!

    Wait, I’ve left out Cambodia. How’d that Communism work out? Let’s not forget Cuba either, no, heavens no, with that FREE healthcare to beat all. I mean, if you got bitten by a shark while trying to sail 90 miles of ocean to the evil Capitalist USA in a 2-man rubber raft, they would fix you right up in the prison hospital back home, FOR FREE!

    Man, Communists, I don’t know which of you to pick. YOU’RE ALL WINNERS!

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
    , @Clyde
  158. @Lin

    I don’t even think you’re serious. Anyhow, Chinese criminals come to the US or Canada.

  159. Agent76 says:

    Nov 14, 2018 The Cultural Genocide of China’s Uighurs

    Chris sits down with Irade Kashgary to discuss China’s systematic genocide of the Uighur identity.

  160. RobinG says:
    @ia

    …an outbreak of rabies, most likely caused by maltreatment.

    Only if you define maltreatment as failure to vaccinate.

    • Replies: @ia
  161. RobinG says:
    @Da Wei

    So, what’s the story with Falun Dafa? (They’re now Big Time here with their stage show.)

  162. @DB Cooper

    Absolutely! You should not delay in going back.

  163. DB Cooper says:
    @Agent76

    Pretty disgusting. Both the interviewer Chris and that woman Irade Kashgary. May be Irade Kashgary should put on a robe so she can be the next Dalai Lama or the next Ahmed Chalabi.

    • Replies: @denk
  164. @Achmed E. Newman

    “On the other hand, the Soviet Union had 7 decades to have multiple starvation periods, ”

    No multiple starvations. Starvation of 30′s was the last. Russia was suffering from massive starvation for at least over 100 years before this terrible affliction was solved through collectivization which also helped to modernize and industrialize the country.

    “but the heating bills had to suffer a bit.”

    Heating bills? You kidding. You know how much we paid our apartment rent ? 22 roubles. My dad salary was 450 roubles and my mother 240. I was bringing in 50 as student. Phone bill was 2 roubles a month.

    “It’s really a toss up, IMO. You had your bread and cabbage lines in the Motherland of the USSR”

    You probably mean 1991-1992 when Gorbachev and his team of traitors destroyed the country., but before that there was no bread and cabbage lines. We were well fed, healthy and taken care of handsomely.

    You should better have a hard look at your own people. Americans are so fat and ugly now that putting you on bread and cabbage would be a very good thing to ponder. I would not even go into American psychological state.

  165. Biff says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    rather than people deciding for themselves

    Where is this fantasy land where people decide shit, much less for themselves?

  166. Biff says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I just like to write the truth

    Another moron with “truths”. Joining the club of Jim Jones, Hari Krishna’s, the Mormons, and George W Bush.
    Forward Ho!

    • Troll: Random Smartaleck
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  167. Anon[349] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    Yes, something called experience.

  168. @Sergey Krieger

    Russian women sell their bodies on the roads of Dubai and white Americans don’t. There must be some reason.

    • Replies: @Biff
    , @Anon
  169. Swan Knight says: • Website

    Fred, I am a true fan of your writing. I am by no means here making light of your eyesight travails. Nevertheless, that blonde is South African super model Candice Swanepoel. She is the highest paid model on Earth, Victoria Secret’s most popular angel ever, and on many short lists for the World’s most beautiful woman. What that means is that she’s better looking than all 2.5 billion or so Chinese women and just about all 2.5 or so Chinese men would rather have her over one of their own. The Jewish media and advertising mavens incessantly push race mixing of all kinds and portray Blacks as everything from business tycoons, to scientists, to high tech geniuses. Yet sex sells and money comes first. Female beauty and sexiness remains the domain of White women. The Cultural Marxists can cry about White beauty all they want. Their rants and shrieks change nothing.

    • Replies: @Truth
  170. jim jones says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    You need to learn how to use articles such as “the” if you are going to post on English language boards

  171. @Sergey Krieger

    After beginning of forties Soviet Union was buying wheat from Canada and US. No more starvation.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  172. Biff says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Russian women sell their bodies on the roads of Dubai and white Americans don’t. There must be some reason.

    I can only come up with 327,268 reasons starting with sense of entitlement > avg. weight ratio while still tipping the scales at over eighty kilos.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  173. @Biff

    No, isn’t it Forward Soviet!?

  174. @Haxo Angmark

    It is not 1920s-1930s and we are not talking about Russia. There is a reason why the MSM does not show great things being built in Russia and China- it might give the people big ideas about changing spending priorities. And of course now the will of the people, populism, is being called anti-democracy by hucksters for the globalist financial perpetual war system, like neocons.
    China leads the world in creation of new billionaires, so it hardly fits the standard old meme of Soviet Union being dreary, poor, and oppressed.
    As for Muslims in China, they are a problem in many places around the world, and many declare openly they want to do things like bring sharia to Europe. China is getting in front of the problem., while Europe and the US trail after waves of caravans, rafts, and trafficked people, many in captivity. The Rohingyas, MSM darlings, attacked multiple police stations and murdered police with sticks, rocks, etc. The Muslim Pakistanis do not want them. Perhaps because Rohingya women commonly have 6-12+ children, an explosive population crisis no nation would want.
    Then there is the fact that US/NATO uses Muslim extremists to harass China and Russia on their borders, and protected ISIS/ Taliban leaders in Syria when they were trapped, with some being flown to Israel.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
    , @Ace
  175. @Biff

    I doubt few mesomorph European-American females would work the streets of Dubai like Russian women do.

    As for a sense of entitlement, well, if there is no money then this does not do a person much good. They are still poor, aren’t they?

    And somehow American white women do not have the incentive (Yet) to peddle ass on the roads of foreign cities as Russian women will.

    • Replies: @foolisholdman
  176. @Sergey Krieger

    Dude, how old are you? Your name sounds Russian, your grammar is that of a Russian, yet you don’t seem to know that there was a USSR. Really, read some history, man, or talk to some old people, if you still live in Russia.

    … this terrible affliction was solved through collectivization which also helped to modernize and industrialize the country.

    You’ve got it exactly backwards: This collectivization brought this terrible affliction – starvation periods, gulags, lining up all day for a head of cabbage, shitty cars, “we pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us”, etc.

    You are right though, that most Americans could stand to lose some weight, and 20% a LOT of weight. That’s not really an indictment of the political system, just too many years of prosperity combined with a loss of purpose.

    Forward Soviet!

  177. @Sergey Krieger

    AGREED, oh except you mean “crony-capitalists”. All this happened with the help and blessing of the US Feral Government, part of the enemy of all Americans.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  178. @griddlefire

    Would you walk through Beijing at night or Flint or Los Angeles?

    Which city is poorer and dirtier? Flint or any Chinese city?

  179. Tourist explains China for us in a nutshell.

    You must be kidding me. You people are unbelievable.

  180. @Agent76

    So you believe all the lies the mass media feeds you. You of course don’t think that the US is importing human organ eating jihadis to turn west China into Syria or anything?

    I can’t wait to hear your brilliant blabby-empty “answer.”

    • Replies: @Lin
    , @Agent76
  181. denk says:

    I often marvel at the rate murikka keep churning out serial lying psychopaths as ‘leaders’.
    Trump, Pence, Pompeo, Mattis, Obama, Bush, the Clintons…….you get the drift. [1]

    Ian Fleming’s fundamental law of probability says…..
    It must be a feature, not a bug.

    ‘lying with a straight face’ , a psychopathic trait,
    is a prerequisite for politics in the incredible stinking land of the fraud.
    they might as well write it into the job requirement.

    I once thought that it must be tough on the yanks, I mean, how do you feel when all your elected leaders are psychopathic [email protected]#$%^! ??

    No longer, we now know that lying isnt the politicos prerogative, its kinda like a national pass time, at least for the majority of murikkans….its in the DNA.

    P.S.
    jimjones is a basket base that isnt worth replying to anymore.
    DITTO Haxo & agent76.

    My time are precious.

    ————-
    Reuben Kaspate 108

    Tanaka was the jp Pm who opened out to China,
    kinda like Nixon….minus the shenanigans.
    During the sino/jp honeymoon, Ozawa Ichiro led a, 600-strong, semi-official friendship mission to Beijing.
    PM Hatoyama would’ve completed the process of reconciliation with Beijing if left alone.
    But the ‘threat of peace’ was too much for the pro-arsonists in Washington DC,
    How is a man to make a living if there aint no fire ?’
    All the ‘panda huggers’ in Tokyo were summarily despatched to make way for rightwing nuts like Abe san and the rest is history.

    ———
    Colin Wright 30

    In case you’r still wondering about the
    tanks crushing unarmed protestors in TAM’. canard, sorry to disappoint you, no evidence whatsoever., zero, nada, zip.

    The only verified case of a govn killing unarmed students was Kent state, where antiwar students were coldbloodedly gunned down by state troopers.

    The only case of a govn using tanks to crush its citizens was the Wako massacre.

    If they can do it to their own citizens, whats there to stop them doing to third world peasants, ?
    Exhibit Fallujah….lots of people got crushed by tanks, women, kids, babies, dogs, cats the lot.

    ——————–
    ia 140

    ‘in China, if you have a grievance, you can only appeal to the party cadres where you were born. If you move you have zero recourse, and of course nobody can vote.’

    The Chinese grievance got addressed to.
    In the land of mushrooms, anti war saints went to jail while war whores got their Nobel piss prize !

    The Chinese dont’ve the chance to vote, BIG deal !
    but they’ve a functional govn that works for their welfare.

    YOu can vote, hurrah !
    Pray tell, how did you guys manage to elect
    one war whore/psychopath/hypocrite after another, who reckon their job is to rule the god damned planet ?
    Is the system rigged per chance, or god forbid…
    YOu are into it, all of you /??

    ‘The Clinton Foundation is one of thousands of NGOs. Judicial Watch (https://www.judicialwatch.org) is another NGO that uses courts and laws to hold powerful people accountable. Nothing like that in china.’

    murikkan ‘elites’ are accountable to law ?
    ROTFLMAO !
    Hey, you guys do have this bizarro sense of humor,
    HAHAHAHHAH

    Achmed 156

    ‘We were enemies. I don’t know anything about the embargo, but just that it’s not to be expected that a country would help out it’s arch-enemies.’

    From what I gather, murikkan prez candidates had a sure fire way to garner votes, …by hyping
    the china bogeyman scare.
    Works like a charm.
    That could only mean that the majority of yanks are brainwashed sinophobes.
    This logical conclusion has been borne out times and again by murikkans posting in forums like this.

    Just to make sure, I check the dictionary…

    Def
    arch-enemy
    a person who is extremely opposed or hostile to someone or something.

    By this def., fukus are the Chinese arch enemy,
    down to a tee.

    Exhibit one….

    —————————-

    (Hearings before the House Committee on

    Appropriations, Jan. 26, 1954.)
    Representative Frederick R. Coudert.
    *Did I correctly understand you to say that
    the heart of the present policy toward China and Formosa is that there is to be kept alive a constant threat of military action vis-a-vis Red China in the hope
    that at some point there will be an internal break- down?

    Walter S. Robertson, Assistant Secretary of State for Far Eastern Affairs.
    *Yes,
    sir. That is my conception.*

    Coudert.
    *In other words, a cold war waged under the leadership of the United States, with constant threat of attack against China, led by Formosa and other Far Eastern groups, and militarily backed by the United States? [2]

    Robertson.
    *Yes…

    Coudert.
    *Fundamentally, does this mean that the United States is undertaking to maintain for an indefinite period of years American dominance in the Far East?

    Robertson.
    *Yes. Exactly.

    I used to substitute names and words into this exchange making it a Chinese exchange, then asking the students if the exchange demonstrated that the claims of intended Chinese subversion and aggression were not justified. Naturally,they all said: clearly and obviously. And most of them were pretty shaken when it turned out to be an Uncle Chutzpah statement.

    https://zcomm.org/zcommentary/uncle-chutzpah-gets-back-into-the-ring-by-edward-herman/

    I can run the exhibits up to no 1000 if required,
    Ergo,
    Sorry pal, your statement is classic
    Robber crying robbery !

    • Replies: @denk
    , @RobinG
    , @denk
  182. @Clyde

    Thanks a lot guys I finally installed a vpn on the laptop.

  183. Lin says:
    @obwandiyag

    “So you believe all the lies the mass media feeds you. You of course don’t think that the US is importing human organ eating jihadis to turn west China into Syria or anything?..”
    My guess is they ‘don’t’. They’re propagandists with an axe to grind and they damn well know the average proles are ill-informed and gullible.
    BTW Something interesting from Falungoon manual:
    “Li, the elusive Falun Gong founder, who perhaps lives in exile in Queens, New York, maintains that magician David Copperfield has some serious falun that allows him to walk through walls and perform magic. In his book “Falun Gong,” Li writes:

    “David Copperfield, a magician in the US, is a master of supernormal abilities who once performed the feat of walking through the Great Wall of China. When he was about to pass through the Wall, he used a white cloth as a cover, pressed himself against the Wall, and then proceeded to go through it. Why did he do that? Doing it that way would lead many people to consider it a magic show. It had to be done like that since he knew there are many people in China with great supernormal abilities. He was afraid of interference from them, so he covered himself before he went in.” (Quoted from the original, English edition from the 1990s, which is no longer available from Falun Dafa’s website)”

    https://www.livescience.com/38255-falun-gong.html

  184. Vidi says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Why in hell should the US have shipped [China] a damn thing [during the famine in the late '50s and early '60s]?

    The U.S. didn’t have to sell China a thing. Merely lifting the economic embargo would have been sufficient; then China could have borrowed money and bought food from elsewhere. Instead, the U.S. turned the screws tighter than ever, knowing that people were dying. If any humans can be blamed for the deaths then, it’s the Americans.

  185. @Godfree Roberts

    Oh bullshit. Without the theft of literally trillions in intellectual property and more trillions in trade deficits with us, this POS country would still be in the dark ages. They’re a bunch of GD thieves and it’s to our shame that scumbags like the Clintons allowed wholesale theft of military secrets.

    Their debt bomb is about to go off, probably before ours, and that’ll be that.

  186. @Vidi

    Time to get current bub. China’s debt bomb is about to go off.

  187. Vidi says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    As to what economic success China owes to Mao I am sceptical that the per capita growth was any more reliably measured before 1975 than it is now.

    According to Reuters, China’s steel production under Mao went from 158,000 tons in 1949 to 20.5 million tons in 1976. That is a geometric growth rate of almost 20% a year.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-steel-overcapacity-factbox-idUSKCN0XA03A

    The production of steel is not everything, of course, but I think 6.4% per year is reasonable for China’s average overall growth rate under Mao.

  188. Vidi says:
    @Che Guava

    Noises come from mainland China about the ‘theft’ of cultural treasures by the 国民党, Kuomintang, but if they had not taken them to the Republic of China (Taiwan), the Red Guards would likely have destroyed most of the works.

    Well, if the Kuomintang hadn’t stolen all of China’s gold and silver, the country might have been able to use it to buy food during the great famine of the late ’50s and early ’60s.

  189. Vidi says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    But China would not have achieved this sort of growth and share of the world GDP without being inflated by the west through manufacturing base transfer.

    Not so quickly, that is probably true. However, China was able to make the H-bomb entirely without American or Western help. So China’s technical ability was already quite high in the mid 1960s.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  190. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    Come on, IIyana, you should know better.

  191. @Achmed E. Newman

    You seem to have absolutely no clue. Obviously you do not know Russian pre 1917 history. After collectivization was complete there was no starvation which had been afflicting Russia before 1917. To help you a bit, collectivization solved many issues at once. Many birds with one stone. Not everybody was happy especially so called KULAKS and some others. They turned violent and had to be dealt with. Gulag is just a name. USA has her gulag too. But severe times require severe measures and in Soviet case it was done the mildest way possible considering that state survival was at stake.

  192. @Achmed E. Newman

    There is capitalism and its various stages.

  193. Vidi says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    For obvious reason you do not like the truth. Take away massive manufacturing and technological transfer from USA and the west and also Soviet help … and there would be no China as we know it now.

    Some help came from Russia, of course, and that is much appreciated.

    If you mean economic help, there was some. But probably not as much as you think. Remember the Stakhanovite incident in the USSR? As it turned out, Alexei Stakhanov’s superhuman productivity was fake. However, there’s a lesson behind the comedy: the USSR needed a bigger economy, and Stalin knew it. The Soviets could not possibly have had enough excess productivity to help China much.

    If you mean technological help from Russia, there was some of that too, and it was very welcome. But I should probably remind you that Yang Chen Ning won the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1957, so China’s scientific ability was already quite deep by then. I don’t mean that a theorist like Yang would have been much help in practical economic matters. But for every winner of the Nobel Prize, there are probably dozens or hundreds of lesser but still quite competent scientists, and likely thousands of qualified engineers. So without some Western technology transfer China’s progress might have taken longer, but I think it would have happened eventually.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  194. Vidi says:
    @cassandra

    IMHO, American capitalists saw that Chinese development was coming, and decided to cash in on the cheap labor.

    Cheap labor, and well-educated. One reason China has been progressing so quickly is that the literacy rate has been nearly 100% for decades. Because of the comprehensive education (thanks to Mao), it was pretty clear many years ago that Chinese development was going to happen.

  195. ia says:
    @RobinG

    When I lived there they killed 50,000 or so dogs outside of Shanghai because of another rabies outbreak. They, the state-employed people, would beat any dog they found with a club and throw their half-dead bodies into the back of a truck. There’s a lot more going on than not vaccinating.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  196. ia says:
    @DB Cooper

    Are you Indian? Where from? I lived in Delhi for several years. Many Indians will openly admit they wish the Brits never left. LOL. I actually liked India. But the poverty is really bad and now the exchange rate is even worse. The problem with India is that nothing works and they can’t get anything to the non-existent ports. Plus, no electricity or building properly, etc. Unreliable infrastructure. Too bad. I”d recommend tourism probably the best thing to do.

    • Agree: Escher
  197. denk says:
    @denk

    Sorry, I mean to say…
    jimjones is a basket case.

  198. Clyde says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    My micro comment is……. yes yes yes more white rice meaning more white slave rice and more diabetes. If the Chinese ate brown rice they would be a monter.

  199. Agent76 says:
    @obwandiyag

    As a book reader I do not fear the propaganda!

    Zbigniew Brzezinski Taliban Pakistan Afghanistan pep talk 1979

    In 1979 Carters National Security Advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski went into Pakistans border regions with Afghanistan to give a little pep talk to some prospective Majehadeen (Holy Warriors).

    20 November 2005 Osama bin with Zbigniew Brzezinski, 1979

    Global Research Editor’s Note: This article originally published by Global Research in 2005 sheds light on the nature of Al Qaeda, an intelligence construct used by Washington to destabilize and destroy sovereign countries, while sustaining the illusion of an outside enemy, which threatens the security of the Western World.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/al-qaeda-the-database-2/

  200. @Vidi

    The numerate not picked in me first noted the 158,000 tons in 1949 as a ridiculous figure to choose as base if one was doing a compound growth calculation for Man’s régime. Then I read the link and found abundant evidence of Mao’s damage to the economy and, precisely in point, the 1952 steel production figure of 1.349 million tons which was a return to 1943 levels under the Japanese. Time to press the Recalculate button I think.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  201. @Vidi

    The figures I quoted in my previous answer give a compound growth rate in the area of China’s Soviet style maximum investment emphasis (steel) as 11.5 per cent rather than 20. And no thanks to Mao after 1958.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  202. Vidi says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Mao’s damage to the economy and, precisely in point, the 1952 steel production figure of 1.349 million tons which was a return to 1943 levels under the Japanese

    So you ignored a minor thing like China’s civil war. How typical of a Western propagandist.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  203. @Vidi

    Keep speculating. What if. The reality is. China got a lot of help from USSR. China was liberated from Japanese by USSR. American capitalistic greed led to manufacturing transfer that made China world workshop. Take away all that and China while still important would be a shadow of what it is now. Regarding nuclear weapons. USSR was helping,teaching and providing until Mao started behaving… then same persons who provided information to Soviets regarding some elements of nuclear weapons provided information to China. Without all this it would have taken a lot longer to produce nukes all on her own. China reminds me of a nice calf which sucks from two cows. Currently China is trying to secure resources and markets via one belt one road project. This is obviously oi usly beneficial for China but not sure about the rest. For now until USA is safely put down Russia is playing along but I ser I’ll usly doubt it is in Russia long term interests to sell China valuable non renuable resources for pieces of paper or some China made junk.

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @DB Cooper
    , @DB Cooper
  204. @Vidi

    China had lots of help from the Soviet union. It included training engineers and scientists and providing lots of know how. The fact that China was liberated from Japanese by Soviet army and Soviet help to Mao helped him to win and create modern China is the foundation of everything. There would not be China as we know it without Soviet union. China did backstab Soviet union in response. So… this always must be remembered.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @Lin
  205. RobinG says:
    @denk

    Good one, denk.

    BTW, Tom Fitton (Judicial Watch) has swallowed the anti-Russia koolaid. Sad. But of course the “conservative” twist has the Russkies working with Hillary.

    • Replies: @denk
  206. RobinG says:
    @ia

    Your lack of goalposts parallels your absence of logic or adequate exposition.

  207. DB Cooper says:
    @Vidi

    If the Kuomintang was still running mainland there won’t be famine in the first place. Don’t blame on the drought. The famine was totally human induced. You have Mao to thank for that.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  208. @Achmed E. Newman

    Your name sounds Russian

    His last name is German

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  209. ia says:

    I’m describing what I experienced while living in China – either saw with my own eyes or read in the English language Shanghai Daily. What goes on there affects everyone through food contamination and animal depredation. I’m not saying Americans and Westerners are innocent. For instance, I just read about South Africans auctioning lions to be shot by the highest bidder. I’m sure there are many Westerners lining up.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  210. RobinG says:
    @ia

    You just can’t stay on topic, can you? (Serious ADHD, maybe?)

    The method you describe was crude, no doubt. But if there was a rabies outbreak, a feral dog population is a serious health risk for humans. Were the carcasses properly destroyed ….. unlike the bodies of humans who were once dumped in open pits …. only to be fed on by feral dogs?

  211. @Random Smartaleck

    Actually my real surname is Russian but I like this Krieger nickname.

  212. cassandra says:
    @Clyde

    The real capitalist will loan you the fiat money he created out of thin air, to buy the rope to hang him with.

    Brilliant! Sure, you’re still in his clutches even after he’s dead!

  213. cassandra says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    The Chinese J10A&B aircraft used Russian engines, but the C&D versions are using ones made in China.

    Patience, grasshopper.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  214. DB Cooper says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    The Soviet Union then was openly threatening China, China response by cozying up with America. America cozied up to China for the same reason. There is no backstabbing, just normal geopolitical maneuvering between countries. Talking about backstabbing it was the Soviet Union that carved Mongolia out from China. And Russians would be wise not to bring up old memories with Chinese. Large swath of Russian far east was Chinese territories. Vladivostok is still referred to as 海參崴 by Chinese all over the world, including in Taiwan, in Hong Kong and everywhere.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  215. @cassandra

    Yes. Patience is good turtle. But Chinese history is cyclical. Can easily get under the wheel of another cycle. I think proliferating to 1.5 billion was pretty bad idea. Gonna hurt long term… not enough resources for such numbers long term and there is no suckers to sell non renuable resources for pieces of paper. Looks like all historical processes have been gathering speed recently.

    • Replies: @cassandra
    , @Anon
  216. cassandra says:
    @ia

    Well, my definition of 3rd world corruption is that 5% of the population runs everything and owns everything. Then, you’ve got another 5-10% of higher level cadres who do their bidding.

    I’d be surprised if in China or the West that the 5% you quote is actually that high. How many people decided on the adpocalypse, censorship and banning on social media? As a guess, I’d estimate that the number of people who control and own everything (commonly through the use of family foundations) is 10-100 times the number of Bilderberger attendees.

    The Clinton Foundation is one of thousands of NGOs. Judicial Watch (https://www.judicialwatch.org) is another NGO that uses courts and laws to hold powerful people accountable. Nothing like that in China.

    You seem to be trying to argue that because one NGO isn’t corrupt it must follow that another can’t be. You don’t mean that, do you?

    I do take your point on Judicial Watch, bless their hearts, though I’m watching developments closely. I believe that no government tolerates political dissent that seriously threatens its political security, and JW is getting dangerously close to that level. Suppression can be soft, as illustrated by Bill Binney, Thomas Drake, or more recently, by Bernie Sanders’ curious behavior; or hard, as in the cases of Gary Webb, Michael Hastings and Seth Rich (IMHO).

    Furthermore, Internet censorship is in its infancy in the west. It may only be a matter of time before European hate speech laws spread everywhere and become used to more precisely guide our thinking. In this area China leads.

    • Replies: @ia
  217. Lin says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    “China had lots of help from the Soviet union. It included training engineers and scientists and providing lots of know how..”
    You are 80% correct this time. Hail the Russian comrades !!!
    China did acknowledge her share of responsibility that precipitated in the sino-soviet split but the Russians obviously should also be blamed for their hegemonic attitude towards china(not to mention they retracted on their promise of providing a prototype atomic bomb to china).
    However, there’s no need to get entangled in the old blame games. Fact is right now both china and Russian have no need to deploy massive forces along the common border and that saves lots of money. BTW, the mil-tech edge the Russians had over china you mentioned is disappearing fast and I hope there’ll be across the board tech cooperation that could benefit both sides. One such project is the CR929:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRAIC_CR929.

    I personally love the music of Tchaikovsky and Stravinsky very much

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  218. @DB Cooper

    USSR never threatened China. Also, those Russian far east territories never were part of China. The reality was that it was place where Manchu lived before they invaded and conquered China. Then they moved to China en masse. It does not make place Chinese. Also, it is not advisable for China to ever mess militarily with Russia. It would be suicidal. Last time China avoided major punishment by becoming reasonable when Podgorny arrived. Everything was ready to bring China to her senses after Damansky incident. Soviets Grads salvo did play some role too. There were more measures taken by Soviet side I am quite sure of that.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  219. @Vidi

    No, I took account that – arguably, because I don’t claim to be less ignorant than you – China, like Germany, had existing infrastructure that mostly needed patching up by people whom Mao didn’t interfere with as he did from 1958. BTW what do you make of the fact that US oil production under Rockefeller increased from 0 tons to….. i.e. an infinite rate of growth?

    Actually I don’t think you are clear about what you are arguing. It could be that Mao gets extra credit because the civil war, in which he was a major participant, reduced steel production and made his growth figures look better.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  220. DB Cooper says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    “USSR never threatened China.”

    I am sure that is what you hear from your government. Why did the Soviet Union set up the Camh Ran bay in Vietnam? To develop a tourist spot? The Soviet Union at that time even suggest to Nixon of taking out China’s nuke but Nixon never took the bait. Instead he cozied up to China to counter the Soviet.

    Russia far east of course was China’s territory. The Manchu started off as a normadic tribe in the north but they themselves completely sinizied and the Qing dynasty became the dynasty that succeeded the Ming dynasty. What country did the Tsarist Russia sign the treaties with concerning those territories? Tahiti?

    “Also, it is not advisable for China to ever mess militarily with Russia. It would be suicidal.”

    Same for China. The total GDP of Russia is less than the Chinese Guangdong province. Bravado won’t get you nowhere. Russia has been a shell of its own self and is still going down. The West has been squeezing Russia for decades and what is Russia response? Zilch.

    “Everything was ready to bring China to her senses after Damansky incident.”
    What thing? Tough talk is not a thing mind you.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  221. cassandra says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    Your comments remind me of those economists from the 90′s who argued that there was no downside in offshoring jobs to China, because Chinese were intrinsically unsuited to high-tech manufacturing. I thought that underestimating the Chinese would lead to the bad decisions then, and I continue to think so now.

    Historical “cycles”: In engineering, there are things called bang-bang regulators, which get their name because they seek to correct errors as extremely as possible, first until one limit is reached, and then in reverse the process, until “banging” against the opposite limit, at which point it reverses once more. A lot of human historical cycles seem to follow that behavior.

    In this context, I find your observation, “Looks like all historical processes have been gathering speed recently”, disturbing, since the historical cycles rarely end softly.

    No more paper: it’s coming down to which financial spreadsheet(s) can be used for exchange.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  222. Vidi says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    Keep speculating. What if. The reality is. China got a lot of help from USSR.

    Do you have any objective information on how much economic and technological help China got from the USSR? If you have no data, you are speculating. Anecdotes about some individual projects are not very informative; do you have any information of national scope?

    The Soviet Union definitely gave China some help, but as I said the Stakhanov incident shows that Stalin wasn’t happy with the size of Russia’s economy; there could not have been enough to help China much.

    China was liberated from Japanese by USSR.

    The USSR helped some, and that is appreciated, but remember that China was still fighting an intense civil war in 1945. If the USSR had not intervened, in 1949 when Mao won the civil war, the Japanese would have crumbled from the full force of China’s military. This military, while severely debilitated by the internal fight against the Nationalists, was still quite powerful as the Americans discovered a year later.

    Without all this it would have taken a lot longer to produce nukes all on her own.

    Did I mention the Nobel Prize in physics won by Yang Chen Ning in 1957? A few years later, China got nukes. (As I said, a theorist like Yang would not have been much help in the practical details, but Yang’s Nobel proves that China had a lot of scientific and engineering talent already.)

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  223. Vidi says:
    @DB Cooper

    If the Kuomintang was still running mainland there won’t be famine in the first place.

    You have got to be kidding. When the KMT conscripted soldiers, most of them would die on the way to the army, long before the actual fighting. That’s how poorly fed they were. There would have been famines soon even without the droughts.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  224. Vidi says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    No, I took account that – arguably, because I don’t claim to be less ignorant than you – China, like Germany, had existing infrastructure that mostly needed patching up by people whom Mao didn’t interfere with as he did from 1958.

    Even if China’s steel production had started at a far higher level, say at 1.58 million tons/year in 1949 — ten times the actual initial rate, as I think I need to emphasize to someone like you — the growth to 1976 would have been at a geometric (compound) rate of nearly 10% a year. That would still have been impressive, regardless of how much a propagandist like you likes to denigrate Mao’s achievements. So China’s actual overall growth rate of 6.4% under Mao was reasonable; an outstanding feat.

    BTW what do you make of the fact that US oil production under Rockefeller increased from 0 tons to….. i.e. an infinite rate of growth?

    What I make of it is that you are trying to distract. Mao did not start from zero. And even if he had started at a higher level that he actually did — if he had less ground to make up than he actually had — his growth rate in steel production would still have been impressive. Have fun at twisting this, but try to be honest.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  225. DB Cooper says:
    @Vidi

    The famine during Mao’s time was human induced. Mao’s years was marked by agitation and incessant political campaigns. Mao attempt to boost the industrial and agricultural productivity using extremely unscientific approach. In the agricultural side each province has to pledge a certain goal of grain output and based on that goal a certain amount was to ship out of the province to the central government. Caught up in the revolutionary fervor many provinces out pledged each other in an attempt to show their commitment and revolutionary credentials. This has been going on and it get worse every year to a point that the pledge became ridiculously unattainable. Unable to meet their quota of grain output, those provinces cover up the bad news and still ship the percentage amount based on their pledged grain output. The result is that those grains that were enough to feed the province was ship out to the central government, leaving the people in the province starving. This is the crux of the reason for the famine. When the disaster of this policy first came to light, the straight talking outspoken general Peng Dehuai

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peng_Dehuai

    openly criticized Mao in the Lushan convention and for this he paid the ultimate price. He died a horrible death. When others like He Long came

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_Long

    to Peng’s defense, he himself died a horrible death. After the Great Leap Forward Mao was relegated to political wilderness for about a decade and Liu Shaoqi

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Shaoqi

    came to power. He scraped Mao’s insanity and there was a period of about a decade of relative calm. After that Mao maneuver himself back to power and launched the Cultural Revolution. Same as others who dared to speak up against Mao, Liu Shaoqi insubordination put him in Mao’s crosshair and for that he was also tortured and died a horrible death.

    Even Zhao Enlai, who survives the worst of his comrades has met was denied medical treatment by Mao after he was diagnosed with cancer.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_Enlai

    • Replies: @Vidi
  226. ia says:
    @cassandra

    JW is very good. I don’t know where they get their money though. Small contributors maybe? It’s going to be quite interesting when they try to criminalize hate speech. Here’s an SPLC employee writing a column in the Washington Post:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/11/16/right-wing-extremists-are-already-threatening-violence-over-democratic-house/?utm_term=.740dea38b347

    The rationale seems to be any white person who opposes the establishment is a Nazi. Nazis are pure evil. Ergo, you can do anything you want to them. But, blacks hate cops and feminists want cops around so are feminists going to be the new Nazis? Or will they let blacks run wild in exchange for other concessions like firing them for incompetence?

    Blacks believe that white liberals appropriate their culture. A “Somali-Australian” Hamishi Farah just made a painting of artist Dana Schutz’ son in retaliation to her painting of Emmet Till. White women artists are not happy: https://hyperallergic.com/447550/hamishi-farah-dana-schutzs-portrait-appropriation-consent-liste-art-fair/

    Now, techie, alt-right types might think this is some frou-frou snobby silliness but as usual they’d be wrong. This whole thing is causig a lot of angst at the heart of the establishment. These major rifts should be noted by us and watched carefully. But, white guys being what they are it’ll go unnoticed.

  227. @DB Cooper

    Russia as always started taking precautions after China started the whole thing around Damansky. Having maps of Soviet territories marked as Chinese did not help. Regarding comparing GDPs. Have you ever wondered what mongols or Manchu GDP was compared to that of China of the time. Could tutu ou also mention the last time China successfully defeated anyone? Pirates probably? China has zero record of fighting peers. It is just that Chinese are not prone to militarism generally. Hence I do not think there is going to be troubles.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  228. @cassandra

    I am not one of those. Chinese are intelligent and smart capable people. The problem is that there are too many of them for earth carrying capacity. China is clearly not enough to keep this sort of population on her own especially with much improved standards of living. India is coming too. It is nightmare.

    • Replies: @cassandra
  229. @Vidi

    You are speculating with this stakhanov case linking it to Soviet economy size. Soviet union passed the greatest test. With half population and half of European Russia territory under nazis , USSR outmanufactured the whole of Europe and defeated world strongest military. How is that for economy size. The rest is just hot air.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  230. DB Cooper says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    “Having maps of Soviet territories marked as Chinese did not help.”

    Do you know how shameful the whole Chenbao island incident start? It is because Russia reinterpreted a treaty that makes Russia owns the whole of the river instead of the ‘Thalweg principle’ internationally accepted as the way of demarcation using river as the landmark. Listen to this podcast and you will get a clear idea what I am talking about:

    http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/news-events/podcasts/renewed-tension-indiachina-border-whos-blame

    Of course Chinese are not prone to militarism because this is how Chinese are. Russia on the other hand has a history of expansionism. GDP of course matter. War between countries is a war between GDP and military technologies. GDP gives the state the resource to develop technologies.

    Could you also mention the last time China successfully defeated anyone?

    The last time is the Russian, regarding the Chenbao islands. China gave the Russian a bloody nose. And they well-deserved it.

  231. Vidi says:
    @DB Cooper

    [Lots of Taiwanese propaganda, omitted]

    You boasted that China would not have suffered a famine under the Kuomintang (KMT), and I proved you wrong. You responded with a lot more BS, and I am ignoring it.

    Even Zhao Enlai, who survives the worst of his comrades has met was denied medical treatment by Mao after he was diagnosed with cancer.

    That is the propaganda. The truth is that Zhou was still the premier, a very powerful man. There was no cure for his cancer (there is probably no cure for it even today).

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @DB Cooper
  232. Vidi says:
    @DB Cooper

    Lots more propaganda in favor of the AngloZionist Empire, right?

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  233. cassandra says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    It is nightmare.

    Yup. (I think that the Russian homonym might be even more appropriate).

    • Replies: @Escher
  234. Vidi says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    You are speculating with this stakhanov case linking it to Soviet economy size. Soviet union passed the greatest test. With half population and half of European Russia territory under nazis , USSR outmanufactured the whole of Europe and defeated world strongest military. How is that for economy size. The rest is just hot air.

    All of Europe is only a fraction of the size of China. Russia could not possibly have helped her southern neighbor much economically.

    Russia did give some help while she was still quite poor compared to the West, and that help is appreciated.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  235. DB Cooper says:

    “You boasted that China would not have suffered a famine under the Kuomintang (KMT), and I proved you wrong. ”

    I didn’t boast. I merely said that the famine is human induced and it wouldn’t have happened if KMT (or anybody other than Mao) was running the show. I posted the reason for the famine which you dismiss as propaganda. That is your choice.

    “and I proved you wrong.”

    Where is the proof?

    I didn’t say there was a cure for Zhao’s cancer. I said Mao denied his treatment.

  236. DB Cooper says:
    @Vidi

    “You responded with a lot more BS, and I am ignoring it.”

    Ignorance is bliss, isn’t it.

    By the way He Long

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_Long

    is a Tujia from the Zhangjiajie area. If you go to Zhangjiajie today there is a memorial of him. If you go there try to strike up a conversation with the locals about He Long’s life and how he died. The younger generations probably won’t know. The older generations certainly do. It is not a topic that is that sensitive anymore.

  237. DB Cooper says:
    @Vidi

    In what way does it favor the AngloZionist empire? The links is about China and Russia? How does AngloZionist got involved?

    • Replies: @Vidi
  238. @Agent76

    Genocide? Is it like the genocides the US carried out against the American Plains Indians, Philippians, the Iraqis, the Vietnamese, Germans, Japanese, Syrians, Nicaraguans, Cubans, Venezuela, North Koreans, the current food blockade of the Yemeni Shi’ia, the renewed and more vigorous economic embargo against Iran or the long history of off and on food embargoes and sanctions against the old USSR, post-Soviet Russia and China? Which version of these policies is China carrying out against its own countrymen?

  239. DB Cooper says:
    @Vidi

    By the way Deng was purged four times and his eldest son has to jump out of the window of a building during the Cultural Revolution making him paralysis all his life. Is that Taiwanese propaganda also?

  240. @Vidi

    I think Europe while smaller has been incredibly wealthy. It is not for nothing that areas around Mediterranean has been such magnet for migration since millennia ago. China has got very favorable location as well. 3 times a year crop in Sichuan. Climate is very temperate there. USSR helped a lot of people and countries without getting often anything in return. On the moment of the Soviet Union fall Soviet debt was $120 billion while 3-4 major debtors of the Soviet Union owed USSR about same amount which has never been returned. Let’s say Vietnam, Cuba, Syria, Iraq and others… Regarding Soviet debt, it was almost 95% accumulated under Gorbachev, because in 1982 Soviet Union owed some $4 billion. Can one imagine stupidity and degeneracy of the late Soviet leadership? And people dare to blame Stalin for shooting this sort of guys. The more the merrier.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  241. @DB Cooper

    Bloody nose? :) Salvo of Soviet Grads whipped out almost all forces in the rear. Bones are still being diged out. I will also add that my dad division was moved from Biisk area Altai, across mountains towards Chinese border with Mongolia. I know only about his division but definitely there was some serious force assembled to effectively deliver castrating blow. Have you ever checked where Beijing is located and how it is related to Mongolia.
    Chines eonly dealt with Soviet border troops… No heavy armor or anything.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  242. Escher says:
    @cassandra

    Why y’all got to bring up dem homos in every conversation?

  243. Escher says:
    @Grahamsno(G64)

    Sichuanese cuisine packs quite a wallop of flavors. Too bad my old gut can’t take the heat any more.

  244. RW says:

    I was in Chengdu about 6 years back when foreigners were being run over on the sidewalks by vehicles with mounted headlamps on top. The only people who had such vehicles were the police. It stopped after to or three killings. But to my knowledge no arrests or investigations ever took place.

  245. Anon[457] • Disclaimer says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Save your time and temper. You will find that Erebus has a great deal of unjustified confidence in his intelligence and knowledge, occasionally let down by such incredible idiocies as that remark about the value of what was learned about industrial processes.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  246. @Reuben Kaspate

    If you have a point to make (and I don’t deny there is some point there somewhere) don’t destroy it with a mound of BS. E.g. that anyone could keep to themselves “the hard earned scientific and technological research of centuries”. Just consider what extraordinary efforts have been expended for the last century or so to protect secrets even for the 16 year – now 20 year – life of a patent. Consider too, how quickly Japan industrialised from 1857 on and, a century on, South Korea and Taiwan.

  247. @Wizard of Oz

    Oops! My checking of the spell check didn’t work and I see that, surprisingly, it wasn’t noticed that I was self-deprecatingly referring to the “numerate nit picker in me”.

  248. @Vidi

    You are still winging it. Your pitch wouldn’t win a consultancy with my hardnosed employers. Without the handflapping how do you get from your steel production figures to a per capita GDP rise under Mao and that it is creditable, specifically for Mao’s credit?

    • Replies: @Vidi
  249. DB Cooper says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    “What does that suppose to mean? I don’t understand a word of Russian.”

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  250. DB Cooper says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    “Chines eonly dealt with Soviet border troops… No heavy armor or anything.”

    Exactly. Soviet Union at that time was militarily much stronger than China. So why don’t the Soviet Union use all out force to engage China, a much weaker opponent? Isn’t that only shows the Soviet Union a pussy coward? Dare to slap but dare not to punch? When push comes to shove it back off? Yes a bloody nose indeed. Even the ragtag Afghan army gave the Soviet Union a bloody nose. And the Soviet Union wasn’t some kind of innocent angel that you alluded to. It was trying to grab the whole river as its own as I provided you with the link. This is a good lesson for the Russian to learn to behave themselves with regards to its neighbors. Of course today Russia itself is being squeezed by the West from all sides. I actually have some sympathies for Russia because I don’t like bully and in this case Russia is being bullied. But my sympathies is wearing off fast.

  251. @Vidi

    Well, if the Kuomintang hadn’t stolen all of China’s gold and silver…

    It can only be called “stolen” if you believe it to have been the rightful property of the Communist Party (a ludicrous idea).

    • Replies: @Vidi
  252. Vidi says:
    @DB Cooper

    In what way does it favor the AngloZionist empire? The links is about China and Russia? How does AngloZionist got involved?

    Your propaganda is exactly what the Anglo Zionists like to perpetrate. Therefore you are a slave of the Empire, whether you know it or not.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  253. Vidi says:
    @Random Smartaleck

    Well, if the Kuomintang hadn’t stolen all of China’s gold and silver [the country might have been able to use it to buy food during the great famine of the late ’50s and early ’60s.]

    It can only be called “stolen” if you believe it to have been the rightful property of the Communist Party (a ludicrous idea).

    (Restored the phrase you chopped out.)

    The gold and silver belonged to the people who earned it, the mainlanders. Taking the treasure to Taiwan is stealing it from its true owners. (And as it turns out, probably contributing to the deaths of many of them.)

    • Replies: @Random Smartaleck
  254. Vidi says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    I think Europe while smaller has been incredibly wealthy.

    Europe has been wealthy, true enough, but not that wealthy. If all of Europe’s production in 1944 (or all of Russia’s production at the time) could magically have been moved to China, that would only have added a minor increment to China’s income.

    It is clear that China mostly helped herself. Whatever success the country has now is mostly due to Mao’s outstanding leadership, though Russia did provide some help when she herself was relatively poor.

  255. Vidi says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    You are still winging it. Your pitch wouldn’t win a consultancy with my hardnosed employers.

    I have absolutely no interest in getting a consultancy with your alleged employers.

    Without the handflapping how do you get from your steel production figures to a per capita GDP rise under Mao and that it is creditable, specifically for Mao’s credit?

    The figures from Reuters, suggesting a compound growth rate of 20% per year in steel production under Mao, are supporting evidence, no more.

    I notice that you are demanding “creditable” data when you have none yourself, only propaganda.

  256. DB Cooper says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    “China was liberated from Japanese by USSR.”

    I didn’t know the Russians are delusional. Who told you this kind of crap? USSR declared war on Japan AFTER the US drop the atomic bomb on Japan. Doesn’t look to me like a liberation. Looks to me like an opportunist in an attempt to share the war booty when Japan’s surrender was all but assured.

    You are pathetic living in your own delusional world.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  257. @DB Cooper

    That’s damansky conflict documentary.

    • Replies: @denk
  258. @Anon

    Appreciate the advice #457. Here you’ve got Mr. Reed writing a decent travelogue, which has been one of his few NON-anti-Americans* articles in a while, and you’ve got the Chi-Coms and the Russian Communists on here arguing over who’s Communist Motherland is the strongest and had the biggest increase in steel production per 5-year plan at the height of their totalitarian misery. I didn’t know this much stupidity existed in the world, at least with regard to this subject. It’s not like there isn’t a whole century of history to learn from.

    I guess it’s that time again, in which the Commies will be crawling out of the woodwork. Fore-armed is forwarned a good idea.

    .
    .

    * Note, I have an “s” at the end, as I’ve got plenty of things against America as a government, but not that much against the real American people. I can’t say the same for Mr. Reed. (Continued from Part 1 – yeah, I was pissed at him.)

  259. @DB Cooper

    I think the advice of Anon-#457 may something you should heed too, Mr. Cooper*. I understand that you’re trying to correct them on well-known facts of history, but these guys are making it up as they go along.

    Forget it D.B., it’s Communism.

    .

    * BTW, I don’t see how you could have landed safely in the freakin’ Cascade Mountains in the middle of the night in the winter, with no GPS. Good on ya’! Got any of the cash left, or did inflation eat it all up? ;-}

  260. Che Guava says:
    @Vidi

    I was speaking specifically of cultural treasures. So your reply is, at best, bizarre.

    Even if Chiang and co. ran off with much silver and gold, that means nothing now (perhaps wealth for particular families).

    Imperial Japan ran a huge theft of precious metals from mainland Asia. it goes without mention now, but was the base of post-war economic recovery, until further boosted by acting as the main support base for US forces in Korea.

    That the 国民党.kuomintang were preserving cultural heritage, does mean something. As I said, if it had been left on the mainland, the Red Guards would have destroyed as much as they were able to do.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  261. denk says:
    @RobinG

    As we all know, fukus has weaponised the UN, NGOs, ICC, ICT…..to bludgeon anyone not agreeable to the Washington consensus.
    uncle sham itself is of course above the law, the exceptional country.

    It tickles me no ends every time some 5lies citizens brag about their ‘checks and balance, right to vote.…’,

    A fat lot of good it does, when….
    fukus has been at war 95% of time since its birth.

  262. denk says:
    @DB Cooper

    Thats the murikkan way of justice.

    Trial by youtube videos.

    They already ‘convicted’ Russia guilty of the MH17 murder….via youtube video .

    Now agent76 has ‘proven’ genocide in Xinjiang.

    Sherlok Hormes must be turning in his grave,
    hehehehh

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  263. denk says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Who says? The average Chinese person doesn’t know the difference between an American and a Canadian. Do you think they can detect that accent, with the “abouuts” and “eh”s?

    surely you aint that dumb , are you ?
    The Canucks get a warm hugging once their identity is known.

    WTF, man? We are all white ghosts to them.

    Yet another armchair critique.
    whiteys are treated like gawd in China, that’s how innocent the chicoms are, not knowing they’r the subject of hate crimes in the 5lies.

    BTW,
    There’s another reason why Canucks are warmly welcomed in China….Dr Norman Bethune.

    Dr Bethune dedicated his life, literally, to help the Chinese fighting the jp invaders.
    A virtual saint who’s widely respected until this day.

  264. denk says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    From what I gathered, China built up its heavy industry base with Soviet assistance.

    It was abruptly stopped when Beijing/Moscow split over ideological difference.

    In any case….
    This thread is turning into the wrong direction.

    fukus must be laughing their ass off.

    Russia./China have settled their border demarcation long ago, their top priority now should be the threat from their common enemy, fukus.

    Squabbling amongst themselves would play right into the hand of that agent provocateur.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  265. Truth says:
    @Swan Knight

    sex sells and money comes first. Female beauty and sexiness remains the domain of White women.

    Well, technically Old Sport; you are a little deceived. What you meant to write is that Female Beauty and sexiness are the domain of white MEN. I think there may be just a smidge of significance in that error.

  266. DB Cooper says:
    @Vidi

    You are pathetic. If you note what I wrote, sometimes I lashed out at the West at their propaganda, and in this case I am lashing out at the Russian guy of his propaganda. I lashed out at India propaganda and I also lashed out at your Chinese propaganda but I also in some cases defend China against West propaganda. I don’t have any agenda, just the irritation of people spewing nonsense, sometimes knowingly or sometimes unknowingly. My opinion of things can totally changed if I am presented with the evidence and I am convinced and in some cases I have. Some of the things I said I have a high degree of confidence because of my personal experience. Some of the things I said I have enough contextual background information that I am pretty sure I am right. But again I am totally open minded and willing to listen.

    You on the other hand just dismiss people outright of propaganda. I present you with links that you can check it out but you said you will just ignore it. Isn’t this pathetic?

    • Replies: @Vidi
  267. DB Cooper says:
    @Che Guava

    Absolutely agree with what you said. Many of the national treasures now housed in the National Palace Museum in Taiwan would have been smashed to pieces by the Red Guards if it were still left in the mainland.

  268. DB Cooper says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    “China was liberated from Japanese by USSR.”

    Your reading of history is very interesting. May be in your fantasy dream this is true. China was fighting the Japanese for a long time. If China got any help during the Sin0-Japanese war it was the United States. Chenault and his AVG (All Volunteer Group) flying tigers was providing cover over the Burma road so supplies can be shipped in from Burma. This was long before the Pearl Harbor attack and the US officially declared war on Japan. What was the Soviet Union doing during all this time in China? Nothing. Actually it did something. It was trying to carve out Mongolia from China and succeeded. And shortly after the US drop the atomic bomb on Japan making Japan’s defeat all but assured, the Soviet Union suddenly declared war on Japan, making itself a party to the war victory countries without sacrificing a single soldier. An opportunistic and most despicable act. Claiming credit when credit is not due. And you want China to be grateful to the Soviet Union?

    No wonder Russia is despised by most of its neighbors.

    Today the United States and Nato is squeezing Russia left and right and Russia can’t do anything about it. But there is actually one thing Russia can do. Be grateful to the United States. Russia deserves it and I wish the United States and its Nato allies all the best in squeezing Russia. Breaking it up totally is even better.

  269. @denk

    I don’t usually reply to retards, but I will just to defend the Flying Tigers, the American AVG (All Volunteer Group) that flew materiel from India across the biggest terrain in the world to the Chinese Nationalists fighting the Japs in China. It went on for a few years.*

    Claire Chenault (whose widow lived in Shanghai last I heard) ought to come back from the grave and drop a 500 pounder down your chimney. Merry Christmas, Commie Retards!

    .
    .

    * Let’s not forget the men who flew in food to feed, and enough coal to heat, the whole 2,000,000-populaton city of Berlin in the winter of 1948-1949 to stand up for the Russian Commies that wanted to take the Western portion of the city. There were planes landing almost every minute, the Douglas Gooney Birds, the DC-4′s and the other heavy lifters. Alas, Templehof is no longer with us, but the Commies backed down.

  270. DB Cooper says:
    @denk

    And I am accused of propagating Anglo Zionists propaganda.

  271. @Vidi

    (Restored the phrase you chopped out.)

    Done solely for brevity.

    The gold and silver belonged to the people who earned it, the mainlanders. Taking the treasure to Taiwan is stealing it from its true owners. (And as it turns out, probably contributing to the deaths of many of them.)

    So none among those fleeing to Taiwan had “earned it”? They weren’t “real Chinese”? Ridiculous. The truth is that the CCP would have “stolen” it just as well given the chance. The KMT simply got to it before your side did.

    • Replies: @Vidi
    , @Vidi
  272. @DB Cooper

    Sorry, D.B., I see you’re still trying to reason with retards, but I wrote that about the American Flying Tigers before I read your post. The fighters were protecting the roads, but plenty of lifters brought in supplies over the hump too. There’s a great book called China Pilot and then I read another specifically about the Burma Road which was a nightmare to build. All this was to protect the south of China from getting invaded by the Japs, who came north from Rangoon.

    I’ve got nothing against current Russia, as it is not by any means the USSR. That is, unless it is filled with ‘tards like Sergey, in which case I want nothing to do with the place. So long as he doesn’t live here – we have too many homegrown Commies as it is.

  273. @denk

    Yes, that’s the ticket – all these Chinaman know of Doctor Nia-mein Bei-tun (best they could say it, even if they did know him) and remember him from helping the fight the Japs. Sure, that’s believable… I’d like to take a survey – if you had 0.01 % (1 in TEN THOUSAND) random Chinese people who’d heard of him AND gave a shit, then I’d owe you some money.

    In the meantime, we all look the same (just as they look much the same in our eyes). Yes, the term is Gweilo which means “white ghost” translated literally. I’ve been there lots and really don’t mind the term. Not everybody can be as sensitive as our American PC overlords push us to be. I try my best … NOT.

  274. @denk

    Squabbling amongst themselves would play right into the hand of that agent provocateur.

    DAMMIT, and it almost worked too. We had the Commies squabbling like it was 1960, and this world-changing Fred Reed thread was going the way we intended! If it weren’t for you meddling retards, it’d have worked too! Go ahead and get yourself a Scooby snack, fellas.

    BTW, nice job by the Reedester, the Fredulator … talking ’bout China… awakening the Commies, even before noon… rackin’ up the comments … makin’ copies….

  275. @Achmed E. Newman

    I have been a long time admirer of Claire Chennault. In the Army Air Corp he was a rebel without a cause as he promoted fighter aircraft tactics while his bosses were mostly bomber types. So the China war against the Japanese suited him just fine as a way to employ his tactics in real time. By fighter standards the P-40 Curtis Warhawk did match up well against the lighter faster Zero, so Chennault’s pilots did not engage in dogfights. Instead they used their superior diving speed to make one pass, shoot and get the hell out. It worked because the P-40 to Zero kill ratio was highly in favor of the P-40.
    One correction, the AVG did not fly materials into China from India. It was the the C-47s and C-46s of the 14th Air Force.
    Chennault’s widow Ann, lived in NYC for a long time but has since passed away.

    40

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  276. Vidi says:
    @DB Cooper

    If you note what I wrote, sometimes I lashed out at the West at their propaganda, and in this case I am lashing out at the Russian guy of his propaganda. I lashed out at India propaganda and I also lashed out at your Chinese propaganda but I also in some cases defend China against West propaganda. I don’t have any agenda, just the irritation of people spewing nonsense, sometimes knowingly or sometimes unknowingly.

    If you hate propaganda so much, why not denounce your own? You claimed that China would not have experienced a famine if the KMT were still ruling the country? Nonsense: in the final years of the war, the KMT couldn’t even feed their soldiers properly. If you are truly even handed, you’ll withdraw your claim.

    But you won’t. Your job as slave of the Empire is to spread the Anglo Zionist Empire’s propaganda.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  277. Vidi says:
    @Random Smartaleck

    So none among those fleeing to Taiwan had “earned it”? They weren’t “real Chinese”?

    Then get some proof that the Kuomintang earned the gold and silver properly.

    You can’t. An honest probe will certainly reveal that the KMT were extremely corrupt (and probably still are, in Taiwan). For example, many of their soldiers in the civil war did not wear good shoes, probably because the KMT officials stole the funding for the footwear.

    So the KMT will be unable to prove that they obtained the gold and silver honestly. They stole it, from beginning to end.

    The truth is that the CCP would have “stolen” it just as well given the chance. The KMT simply got to it before your side did.

    A thief thinks everyone else is stealing.

  278. Vidi says:
    @Random Smartaleck

    So none among those fleeing to Taiwan had “earned it”? They weren’t “real Chinese”?

    Then get some proof that the Kuomintang earned the gold and silver properly.

    You can’t. An honest probe will certainly reveal that the KMT were extremely corrupt (and probably still are, in Taiwan). For example, many of their soldiers in the civil war did not wear good shoes, probably because the KMT officials stole the funding for the footwear.

    So the KMT will be unable to prove that they obtained the gold and silver honestly. They stole it, from beginning to end.

    The truth is that the CCP would have “stolen” it just as well given the chance. The KMT simply got to it before your side did.

    A thief thinks everyone else is stealing.

  279. DB Cooper says:
    @Vidi

    ad hominem attack.

    Why should I withdraw my claim? I am going to repeat it again here. China would not have had famine in the 1950s because it was human induced thanks to Mao. And I have explained the crux of the reason in an earlier post. There are tons of information on this subject if you care to take a look at it objectively, probably not in mainland for obvious reason. In Hong Kong there are many writers and political analysts there were originally labelled as ‘leftist’ writers, ‘leftist’ magazine editors, in other words Communist sympathizer that published left leaning articles. These people have good connections with the mainland and were able to provide a lot of first hand materials regarding what’s going on in mainland. They have the trust of the mainland. Some might even be bona fide party members. A lot of these people later got disillusioned with the Chinese Communist party because of its many policies, such as the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution and turn away from the CCP in disgust. That many of Mao’s comrades died a horrible death because they crossed Mao the wrong way and that the famine was man made (not intentionally of course) are common knowledges among long time China watchers. These people have no reason to lie and their sources are credible because they themselves at one time were pro-Communist and have good connections with the mainland. Here is one such guy, a one time leftist magazine editor but have a change of heart over the years because what he saw during the Mao’s years disgusted him. He lives through that time. He didn’t read the things I wrote from somewhere. He experience it first hand.

    https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/李怡

    He seems to have a facebook page in the link I provided. Contact him and convince him that you are right. I of course are totally sure that you are spewing BS.

    I don’t know why you are so offended that I am pointing out a narrative that you have never heard before and obviously don’t agree with. Something is going on here.

  280. @Simply Simon

    Yeah, thanks for the correction as I’d thought that the freighter pilots flying over the hump were part of the same group. Anna Chennault was General Chennault’s 2nd wife, and she was Chinese. Though she spent part of her time in Monroe, Louisiana, Claire died long ago, in the 1950′s, and then she became something of a political figure. I had a Chinese girl tell me that she lived in Shanghai, but I’m not sure if that was just temporary, as she was doing business between Taiwan and the mainland.

    Mrs. Chennault had escaped Hong Kong when the Japs took it over and stated that all the Chinese women would be considered pro-bono prostitutes for a few days, so I believe she knew what was what, wrt who was fighting to save the Chinese from the Japs. Believe it or not, she only died this year, and was buried in Arlington in Washington, FS.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  281. DB Cooper says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I didn’t know she had died. She was quite a go-getter and was later active in the upper echelon of the Republican party, especially those old China hand type, like Kissinger and Winston Lord. But her Chinese penmanship was lousy, like the handiwork of a six year old. So I don’t think she was very educated. Educated Chinese don’t write like that, especially those years when computer was not a thing. Chennault was probably messing around in Chongqing and the two got hooked up. Good for him and her.

    The Chinese are still very fond of the Flying Tigers. This is something that the Chinese are forever grateful.

  282. DB Cooper says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    Educate myself about what? Are you telling me that the Soviet Union did not declare war on Japan AFTER the US dropped the atomic bomb on Japan?

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  283. @DB Cooper

    A lot of crap quite frankly. It took less than 2 weeks and the most potent Japanese force seazed to exist. So what if Chinese fought Japanese for years without achieving anything? It took Soviet army less than 2 weeks and China was liberated from Japanese . And there was no need to nuke civilians like you did. Regarding NATO squeezing Russia and Russia unable to do anything. In the light of what we know by now about us army and th at of NATO and recent developments in Russia one can only laugh at what you just posted.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  284. @DB Cooper

    You seem to lose it with every post. You probably forgot who asked Soviet union to declare was on Japan and take care of kwantung army. Doing your typical thing and killing civilians. Very impressive. Force for good in the world, lol.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
  285. DB Cooper says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    “It took less than 2 weeks and the most potent Japanese force seazed to exist.”

    Yes, AFTER Japan was nuked and totally demoralized. Even right before Japan got nuked Japan was already a shell of itself before the war. The atom bomb just brought everything to a conclusion quicker. And once Japan was atomic bombed, the Soviet Union declared war on Japan. You just prove my point.

    “Regarding NATO squeezing Russia and Russia unable to do anything. In the light of what we know by now about us army and th at of NATO and recent developments in Russia one can only laugh at what you just posted.”

    You lose me there. I really don’t know what you mean. What have Russia done?!

  286. DB Cooper says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    “You probably forgot who asked Soviet union to declare was on Japan and take care of kwantung army. ”

    You tell me.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  287. Ace says:
    @griddlefire

    Great comment. The usual suspects were all in a twitter about Chechnya, just as now with Myanmar. The Russians and the Myanmarians show the way for the rest of the world how to deal with Muslims, namely, don’t tolerate their vicious nonsense for an instant. But, because we’re such sensitive souls, we’d rather go down without a fight.

  288. Ace says:
    @Haxo Angmark

    Not quite. The true believers who came back from the Soviet Union were there during grim times and a great deal of dishonesty or self delusions was called for to report that all was well. Fred is reporting on a vastly improved China and does not have to stretch anything to conclude that these are exceedingly good times for a great many Chinese now.

    If Fred is suggesting that something is working in China, it’s something like state capitalism with a pretty sane, realistic leadership (though I know of a horrific homicide case that came close to being a terrible miscarriage of justice).

    Just by the standard of modern China NOT being the China of the Cultural Revolution, the Chinese are living large for a long time they lived in desperate circumstances. China has gone through a lot of bad times, not small amount of which was due to their unwillingness to adapt to the Western threat (as the Japanese had done with a vengeance).

    Judged by a standard short of “Perfect China” Chinese can not be faulted for enjoying reasonable stability, prosperity, restored national pride, and decent government. The Uighurs, like all Muslims, seem to want to foul their own nest so the state is landing on them with both feet. Boo frigging hoo, but for citizens who don’t feel like doing a Bill Ayers or Osama Obongo they’re in a good spot.

    It’s true that American stupidity and betrayal are committing a LOT to China’s prosperity and I think you are right on the money vis-a-vis the organ trade. There’s something grisly about that trade that I can’t rationalize away. But, still, I don’t know for a fact that’s it’s what I’m intimating just above.

    I rather doubt the 5,000 shootings a week. Yes, citation on that one.

    China exhibits a firmness and steadiness of purpose that the West had to some degree in the past. We are like little old ladies when it comes to crucifying our enemies. Ain’t going to happen. Nor can we stop ourselves from groveling at the feet of brain-challenged minorities and foreign savages.

  289. denk says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I don’t usually reply to retards, but I will just to defend the Flying Tigers,

    defend the tigers ?
    genius
    are you sure you’r replying to the right person ?

    the American AVG (All Volunteer Group) that flew materiel from India across the biggest terrain in the world to the Chinese Nationalists fighting the Japs in China. It went on for a few years.*

    I know all about it, but what has it gotta do with the Canucks, genius ?

    Anyway…..
    I bet you dunno about this…
    When the ‘Chinese nationalists’ [aka murikkan puppets kmt] lost the civil war to the PLA uncle sham set the jp POW free to fight the Chinese, cuz they were the ‘wrong’ kind of Chinese.
    ehhehhe

    *Claire Chenault (whose widow lived in Shanghai last I heard) ought to come back from the grave and drop a 500 pounder down your chimney.
    Merry Christmas, Commie Retards!*

    NO Genius
    Chenault should drop a MOAB on the WH
    whatever goodwill he garnered in China has been completely wiped out by 70 years of relentless assault on the Chinese nation. [1]
    [using the jp pow to fight the PLA certainly didnt help to win the heart and mind,
    hehehe]

    [1]
    Why fukus is the arch enemy of the Chinese.
    exhibit 2

    picking fight at China doorstep,
    episode 100
    Carlton Meyer/…

    http://www.g2mil.com/May2001.htm

    Ergo…
    YOu’r kinda like Robber crying robbery
    hhhhhh

  290. denk says:
    @Agent76

    Muslim genocide ?
    YOu must be talking from experience,
    wise guy ?

    How long will the countries targeted by American/Islamist limited warfare continue to tolerate this bold assault? China, in particular, is presently bound by the economic chains that have been forged with the United States. How much longer will it continue to abide provocations in Xinjiang and other Chinese interests from Central Asia, to Pakistan, to Africa? It would be extremely unprofitable right now for China to haul the United States before the UN Security Council or to take military actions in retaliation for this low-intensity war that has been waged upon them. But that will not always be true. When the American house of cards finishes collapsing all bets will be off.

    https://www.countercurrents.org/chamberlin190809.htm

  291. Anon[273] • Disclaimer says:
    @Red Pill Angel

    Won’t those numerous unidentified murdered murkhans & aborted foetus provide abundant free skulls with better economic sense, which also exempted from Trumps tariffs?

    That foolish anatomy prof must be illegal migrant from India, so are his student who blindly swallowed such foolish FUKUS-Indian lies. Well everyone knows India’s pandemic fake Dr, including its own health minister public decrying on its Dr – 80% fake, 20% failed.

    And your sister must have told you about those China filthy toilets 30yrs ago when you are still suckling. Most poor countries including West goes through that shit thing before development although China was particularly bad before opening up. But China has now swung to opposite in building many extravagant toilets with its new wealth in many reporting which is unnecessary.

    If you still miss those shitholes dearly, India is still well preserving them in this era, right in all its main cities & capital main roads, literally everywhere. So are most poor countries, particularly those under US sanction & raid.

  292. Anon[273] • Disclaimer says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    Don’t worry, 1.4B Chinese is only populating a small portion of their huge land mass now, with vast Tibet & Xinjiang regions still mostly empty to support another billion easily. They have not export a single exudes of famine refugees to the world since they successfully break out from West evil sanction under Deng.

    If the Chinese don’t like Tibet or Xinjiang but prefer northern cold, they can always reclaim back their vast Far East Siberia & Outer Mongolia from aging Russia, that will easily support another billion more.

    If that still unable to satisfy mainland Chinese, reclaim South Tibet from British sepoy India, spratly islands from ungrateful Vietnam, Diaoyu & southern islands chain from jap, ….

    When Chinese pop reach 3B, they can always consider if to copy the West colonization as these imperialists did in last few centuries, still crowing proudly nowsaday, by simply wipe out the weaker whites or enslave them for plantation food growing(also to feed the exploding black Africans & Asians too). US land alone should be able to support another billion Chinese of IQ105 with reusable resources. Russia will be the sucker to sell resources for FED toilet paper that Chinese can exchange with US with their products.

    But sadly China leaders decided to cap the world best hardworking stocks with birth control. Certainly the explosive uncontrolled illiterate 1.3B IQ80 Indians & billion of under IQ70 Africans make worst choice. No thanks too for those hundreds of millions retard obese West whitish under IQ100 that are addicted to opiods, LBGT, crimes & guns violent.

    I would definitely prefer Chinese over Indians or Africans/Latinos if they have to move enmass to build the same marvellous Chinese cities, economy & splendid cuisines everywhere. Those hardworking intelligent whites like Germans & some East Europeans are welcome.

    Jews should all make to stay in ME to cozy up with their Moslems brothers, that keep them busy without time to poke their big noses everywhere.

  293. @DB Cooper

    LOL. Take your pill buddy. Discussion is over.

    • Replies: @DB Cooper
    , @DB Cooper
  294. And now, at mile marker #300, I present to you a phenomenon, stranger than that can be imagined by the common blogger. Pervasive throughout a comment section under an obscure Fred Reed travelogue article, on a website deemed to present alternate viewpoints, we find words that have transcended time itself … writing that is SO antiquated, at a radioactive level of stupidity that is transUranic, beyond the Lanthanides, well into the 3-digit atomic values of stupidity … it can be nothing less than a warp in the fabric of time.

    I give you arguments over an anti-human philosophy long-debunked and shown to cause death and human misery for billions … appearing on this page 6 DECADES later, made earnestly by a new generation in a condition of ignorance and illiteracy not seen since ancient Sumeria during the time of the Hittites. How did these words get to this page over the ether and 60 years of time?

    You, the unz reader, have just entered the Twilight Zone:

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  295. @Achmed E. Newman

    Or, if you prefer, the Golden Earring version. Turn up the bass volume, or just forget it!

  296. DB Cooper says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    I ask you to tell me. But you didn’t. Are you suggesting the KMT asked the Soviet Union to declare war on Japan. If that is the case then you are living in la la land. Yes discussion is over.

  297. DB Cooper says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    While China was fighting the war, the Soviet Union was busy carving Mongolia from China and made it a Soviet satellite. Then when Japan’s defeat was assured after it was nuked by the US, the Soviet Union suddenly declared war on Japan making it a party to the victory countries without sacrificing a single soldier. A most opportunistic and purely despicable act. Absolutely disgusting. Based on what you wrote you probably didn’t know this before. Now you are trying to make up an excuse to make you feel the Soviet Union, and by extension Russia is not as despicable as you now realized. But no. This is part of Russian history now. Despicable history. No wonder Russia is hated by so many of its neighbors.

    Today Russia is squeezed by the US and Nato left and right and there is nothing Russia can do about it. The country is still going down hill with no end in sight. I know I am repeating myself here but just want to drill it into your dumb skull in case you forget.

    • Replies: @Jim Kreiger
  298. denk says:
    @denk

    I did say ‘democratic’ USA has been run by mafiasos from day one.

    UNlike murikkans, I wont make any claim willy nilly unless I could back it up .

    Exhibit 1

    Looks like a thug....

    [1]

    Quacks like a thug….[2]

    * “China is guilty of rampant intellectual property theft, forced technology transfer, restricted access to Chinese markets, respect for international rules and norms, efforts to limit freedom of navigation in international waters and Chinese Communist Party interference in the politics of Western countries.*

    Walks like a thug….

    Well then he must be ……!

    QED

    [1]

    https://www.sott.net/article/401014-Iron-Mike-Pence-tries-to-stare-Putin-down-at-APEC-meeting

    • Replies: @RobinG
  299. RobinG says:
    @denk

    Your version of this photo crops out the goofy grinning walrus [Bolton]. Hard to believe that lunatic Dems want to impeach Trump, empower lunatic Pence.

    • Replies: @denk
  300. denk says:
    @RobinG

    that lunatic Dems want to impeach Trump, empower lunatic Pence.

    More dog and pony show from the duopoly I guess.
    All serving TPTB, aka deep state.

    I omit that idiotic Bolton to highlight Pence’s supposedly ‘steely gaze‘ [sic]

    All potus put on this tough guy act when trying to intimidate some ‘lesser’ opponent, Bush comes to mind, when he declared…
    ‘YOu’r either with us or against us’

    Even the affably looking Clinton wore that mask whenever required, the look that supposed to demonstrate great resolve.
    ‘Dont mess with us’

    The ‘steely gaze’….
    I wonder, is that a standard part of a potus job training before assuming office ?

    hhhhh

  301. Che Guava says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    DB,
    I was very young at the time, landing at the old HK airport was a thrilling ride.

    Am pretty sure the pilots and crew enjoyed it, too, AFAIK, there was never an aircraft accident.

    The wings would almost touch tall buildings.

    An experience to savour.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  302. @Che Guava

    I’m not sure if this was for me or DB Cooper, but I’ve seen video of those landings at the old Kai Tek(?) airport. The hairy part was not so much just the proximity to the buildings (don’t know if you’ve been into San Diego landing toward the ocean, or landing at Chicago, Midway (about any direction)). It was the hard right large-banked turn after the course toward that “target” on a hillside that was something else.

    At Midway, coming on on a 757, it seemed that one wing was 50 ft from a Hot-dog stand, and the other was right over the top of the Outback, or something!

    • LOL: Che Guava
    • Replies: @Che Guava
  303. Anon[356] • Disclaimer says:
    @Jeff Stryker

    Reason:

    Similar to US grave trade deficit fundamental with every countries, there just isn’t enough decent murkan white gals production to feed its domestic sex addicted nation, while numerous make In America obese C130 won’t make the mark for export like the beautiful slim Ruskies SU.

  304. Che Guava says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Achmed,

    Think I messed up my earlier reply, romanisation was Kai Tak.

    The fun rides in the U.S.A. that you list also sound good, but never been there.

    Would still like to visit one day, but the idea of being greeted by T.S.A. thugs as soon as disembarking sure puts me off!

    As it sounds like you know, on the HK approach, pilots had to sharply bank to avoid a wing hitting a building. Cool!

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  305. @Che Guava

    About the TSA, when you disembark it’ll be the Customs and Immigration thugs, a different set. They will scowl at everyone, so don’t take it personally. (Thing is, I’d rather THEY be the tough-asses, as after all, it’s the entrance to our country. That’s kind of a joke, though, when the southern border is as porous as Madonna’s underwear. The TSA is just wrong, per US Constitution … like anybody cares …)

    If you visit, I’d recommend renting a car if at all possible. Take a long drive all the way across, rather than just hopping around to some big cites. They don’t represent America very well.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  306. Anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says:
    @britishbrainsize1325ccsnicker

    If you ban something, then people want it more. Marijuana was illegal for 80 years in the US, it was considered cool and edgy and forbidden so a certain segment of society wanted to try it. Now that it’s becoming legal, it no longer has the “cool” factor that it once had. People who are not users are not clamoring to try it. The same thing with Chinese women who are with White men, there are some that like them and some who don’t. If you made interracial couplings illegal, you all of a sudden make it cool and forbidden, making it attractive to many more women. Leave things as they are, the vast majority of Chinese women will always be with Chinese men, a small minority will marry foreigners. Yours is the attitude of the loser wanting to control peoples’ lives. Why don’t you ask the question, how can I make myself more attractive to Chinese women, rather than hating a few British men who marry Chinese women. Remember, it takes two to tango, nobody is forcing Chinese women to go with them. If you want a woman, find out what makes women attracted to men and give yourself an edge over other men. You already have an advantage over most British men, you speak the Chinese language, understand the culture and are more acceptable to her parents.

    • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
  307. @DB Cooper

    You say that Russia is going downhill with no end in sight. If you are making a statement like this you must be comparing it to something. If you compare Russia with China you can see that China is making enormous economic progress but at what cost? The environment has been destroyed. I know many Chinese immigrants and nobody wants to live there because of the horrible environment. There may be prosperity but they are horribly overpopulated with a horrendous demographic imbalance. They can only function as a repressive dictatorship. Russia, on the other hand has a manageable population and is turning around its low birth rate. Russia still has it’s culture, its religion and its environment is pretty well intact. Russia is gradually improving, with its cities still of manageable size. Russia is majority White with minorities that are mostly higher IQ types like Central Asians. Compare this to the US with its 100 million low-IQ population and hostile elites, tearing the country to shreds for the past 100 years. The reality is China will burn itself out, the US is already burned out and Russia is in for the long haul coming out as the world leader in the next 30-40 years. The US is a shell of a country with a large military paid for by debt, a hostile 100 million non-white population in its midst, a hostile elite and 200 million whites caught in the middle beset with health problems galore and divisions through religion, political affiliation, joblessness, and self-hate. Don’t throw stones at other countries when you live in a glass house.

  308. @Anonymous

    As Fred Reed accurately noted, if crack or meth were legalized people would purchase it out of curiosity once and become addicts.

    I’ve seen a few ordinary college girls try cocaine at Frat Parties and become criminals within a year or two.

    At the moment, you can only get heroin or cocaine illegally in ghettos or barrios so ordinary people don’t want to risk being carjacked to drive into these places to try it.

  309. FB says:

    ‘Although China is assuredly a dictatorship and vigorously represses dissent, we saw virtually no police. A friend who lived in Chengdu for several years until recently asserts that there is close to zero street crime.

    As opposed to the gloriously free US [NOT A DICTATORSHIP, OK?] where you have friendly police like this…

    Never ceases to amaze me the brilliant insights that emerge from the stegosaurus-like US skull…

  310. FB says:

    ‘Conspicuous to both Violeta and me was evidence of Intelligent Design. Chengdu clearly did not evolve randomly as cities do in the West. Somebody thought about things beforehand.

    That ‘somebody’ would be the ‘dictators’…LOL

  311. Che Guava says:

    Thank you. That is something I long dreamed of.

    The only time I have experienced right-side driving is in video games and movies. May be actually able to do it reliably after some practise in Korea.

    • Replies: @foolisholdman
  312. Che Guava says:
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Another example of the comment system losing thread connections, my reply is 317.

    Re. Kai Tak, 747 pilots really did have to tilt the wings to avoid hitting buildings, and, as you say, another dramatic manoeuvre to head for the airstrip.

    It must have been both spectacular and no fun for the residents!

    I was assuming business, but clearly flats at that height and in such plain buildings, just placed my mind in the position of somebody living there, whoo!

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  313. @Grahamsno(G64)

    The US has a severe ‘Feral Niggers’ problem – a violent underclass of unemployable retards.

    So whose fault is that?

    it might help if the US educational system were configured to deal seriously with this problem, rather than making it worse. It would help the US to survive more, if they spent, say, half of what they now spend on the MIC, on this problem, than the resulting arms will.

  314. @Jeff Stryker

    And somehow American white women do not have the incentive (Yet) to peddle ass on the roads of foreign cities as Russian women will.

    IMHO you can blame Gorbachov, Yeltsin and the like of Jeffrey Sachs for that.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  315. @Achmed E. Newman

    * Let’s not forget the men who flew in food to feed, and enough coal to heat, the whole 2,000,000-populaton city of Berlin in the winter of 1948-1949 to stand up for the Russian Commies that wanted to take the Western portion of the city.

    Let us not pretend that the “Berlin Crisis” was not manufactured by the West. The “Allies” were in negotiation over the currency to replace the Reichsmark, when the western powers printed and put into circulation the Deutschmark, over which the USSR had no control! The USSR offered to supply all the food and fuel needed by West Berlin but the US would not agree. They preferred to have a “Crisis”.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
  316. @Che Guava

    I grew up in the UK and drove there from 1956 to 1995. I then moved to Europe. I find the main difficulty in changing from RH drive to LH drive is remembering how much of the car is on the RH side of me.

  317. @foolisholdman

    The USSR ran their zone, and the English, American, and French zones were combined. It shouldn’t have mattered to the USSR what currency was used in the East zone unless they were worried about it quickly becoming worthless. Why would the USSR provide food and fuel to the enemy? That’d have been part of a takeover of all Berlin. West Berlin would not have needed the airlift if the main road from West Germany had not been blockaded by the East Bloc.

    The West did not want to lose Berlin. I’m sure the Germans were pretty happy about that.

  318. @foolisholdman

    I’ve seen the same thing in the Czech Republic. I swear that I first thought they were waiting for buses. Then I figured it out. You can’t blame every problem in the world on America (though I do know about the pillaging of Russian assets during the 1990′s).

  319. @Che Guava

    OK, I just read both of them. I’ve never gotten a chance to drive on the left side, myself, but that may be just as well!

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