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Old Chinese saying: ‘when elephants battle, ants get crushed.’ Think of the current crisis on the Korean Peninsula in which the government in Seoul has been all but ignored.

South Korea’s newly elected president, Moon Jae-in, keeps insisting that the US must not launch war against North Korea without South Korea’s agreement.

President Donald Trump and the US media appear not to have heard Moon’s pleas, or are simply disregarding them.

Amazingly, six decades after the end of the 1950 Korean War, South Korea’s 650,000-man active armed forces and 4.2 million-man reserves remain under the command of a US four-star general. This neo-colonial arrangement was supposed to have ended years ago, but successive conservative South Korean governments maintained their nation’s acceptance of Washington’s Asian Raj. So does Japan.

The most recent South Korean rightist leader, Park Guen-hye, was ousted for alleged corruption and is now in jail awaiting trial. Many of South Korea’s rightists are Protestant Christians – as was the US-backed Korean War leader, strongman Syngman Rhee. South Korea’s Christians are ardently anti-Communist and support war against North Korea. Whatever happened to turn the other cheek?

President Moon, an anti-war moderate leftist, keeps calling for a peaceful solution to the present crisis. Most South Koreans back him. As I’ve found on my many assignments in Korea, most Southerners shrug off the threat from North Korea – or even laugh it off. They certainly don’t want a full-scale war on their front door. The 1950-53 conflict left at least 2.5 million Korean civilians dead and most of the peninsula’s major cities bombed flat by US B-29’s.

North Korea, by contrast, constantly harangues South Koreans that their nation is a US ‘puppet’ and ‘colony’ run by traitors. Pyongyang insists that North Korea is the authentic Korean state while the South is a mere US/Japanese colony. Many young South Koreans absorb such claims; some are even proud of North Korea for standing up to the mighty United States even though South Korea’s economy is 45 times larger than that of threadbare North Korea.

Kim Jong-il’s bombastic challenge to President Trump is emboldening Korean nationalists. Many point to the fact that North Korea developed nuclear weapons and delivery systems on its own while South Korea was stopped from doing so by US pressure in the 1970’s.

At the same time, North Koreans are jumping for joy that their nation just launched a medium-range missile over Japan that panicked and humiliated the much hated Japanese. The missile launch came on the anniversary of Japan’s takeover of Korea as a colony in 1910. Imperial Japan exploited and humiliated the proud Koreans, treating them as sub-humans. Koreans have never forgotten. Many long for revenge.
That’s what Kim Jong-un is doing.

The second North Korean missile to fly over Japan makes painfully clear that Japan must have nuclear weapons to defend itself, something this writer has been urging for years.

ORDER IT NOW

Otherwise, the world’s number three economy is utterly naked to its foes, who include North Korea and China. Emphasizing the point, this week air raid sirens wailed in various parts of Japan, giving the population a big scare and undermining respect for its conservative government.

Point defense missiles – Japan’s current response – won’t give it adequate protection. As France’s Maginot Line so dramatically showed, fixed defenses can be overcome by spirited, innovative offensives. To defend itself, Japan – and perhaps South Korea – need massive retaliatory capability. But even then, if there is a north Asian nuclear conflict, it’s likely North Korea will save at least one or two nuclear missiles for revenge against Japan.

China’s Foreign Ministry has proposed the obvious, sensible solution to this trumped-up crisis: the US to cease its provocative annual air, land and naval demonstration around North Korea’s borders in return for the North outing a moratorium on its provocative missile tests. So far, Washington has refused this sensible solution.

Meanwhile, in a little-noticed, menacing statement, China’s Ministry of Defense just warned that China ‘would not allow’ US or South Korea troops to enter North Korea. This is a very serious warning that deserves utmost attention in Washington.

It reminds me of Imperial Russia’s warning Austro-Hungary not to invade Serbia in the fall of 1914 – or else. The ‘or else’ came: World War I. And, of course, Mao’s China warning US Gen. Douglas MacArthur not to cross the Yalu River in 1950 – or else. Soon after, 500,000 Chinese troops invaded Korea.

(Republished from EricMargolis.com by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: American Military, China, North Korea 
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  1. 1. I was not aware Gen. MacArthur (or any troops in his command) ever crossed the Yalu? Can you supply a reference for that?

    2. As I read the China-Russia joint declaration, they are setting as a precondition to any negotiations, not that USA/ROK halt all joint exercises, but that USA withdraw from, which would be tantamount to abandoning the only democratically elected government on the Korean Peninsula.

    3. Why are you so eager to destroy any hope for maintaining what until recently has constituted a nuclear-free zone in Korea and Japan? I know that W. Bush was responsible for ending the nuclear non-proliferation process, but wasn’t that still a good idea? And should we be abandoning that goal? What would you have USA commit to? We should all be working, at a minimum, toward enlarging the heretofore de facto nuclear-free zone! We should counter the Chinese-Russian precondition for negotiations with our own precondition: establishing a nuclear-free zone throughout Northeast Asia!

    4. Trump was disrespectful and foolish in his treatment of President Moon, when the latter visited Washington earlier this year. Trump, at least since he fired Gen. Flynn, represents a failed presidency. And I was, at one time, an early-on, big Trump booster. Now when we see that he does not hesitate to break any of his promises, do you really think that he is capable of “emboldening” Korean nationalists? I only wish he were capable of such a thing.

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  2. Given the history, I wouldn’t be in any hurry to nuke-up the Japanese. Nuking-up the South Koreans might carry less historical baggage, but let’s be sensitive to the law of unintended consequences.

    The Chinese represent a serious economic threat, and that is the 800lb gorilla we are trying to tame, and doing so by destabilising the current Nork regime so that floods of poor Norks pour across the border only increases Chinese resolve to keep the status quo. China doesn’t have the strategic resources to force Washington’s hand, but it tends to play a longer-term game. Right now, Washington prevails by cutting problem-children out of access to global markets through things like sanctions: At some point trade in oil is going to be de-dollarised and things like SWIFT aren’t going to make a rat’s behind of difference to the Chicoms, or the Russians for that matter, in trade with other nations that want to sell their raw materials to what is increasingly become the primary set of bidders for their product.

    If you think it will hurt China more to lose the US as a buyer, consider that they are generations closer than us to living in the dirt, and given that we are necessarily backing them into a corner and thereby putting them on a war footing, we’re kind of giving them no choice but to risk that. Seems to be the neo-con plan to defuse the Chinese economic threat, but they don’t seem to realise the whole western world is now fatally dependent on cheap asian crap, and the flow of all of that, not just from China, will stop (regardless of who controls the seas) if we keep picking at the loose threads we have started to unravel on the Korean peninsula.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Grandpa Charlie
    Ooops, Alarmist, sorry, I seem to have confused you with jim jones
  3. jim jones says:

    North Korea has cute traffic cops:

    Read More
    • Replies: @Michelle
    I can't watch it! It's worse than baton twirling to the Star Spangled Banner. Just too embarrassing.
    , @Grandpa Charlie

    "Seems to be the neo-con plan to defuse the Chinese economic threat ... " -- The Alarmist
     
    Don't get alarmed but seems to me that the neo-cons in USA's government actually are on the payroll of, and act, if not always exactly according to instructions from the China Communist Party, then in any case are paid enough that they never do anything contrary to what the CCP/PRC wants.


    "If you think it will hurt China more to lose the US as a buyer, consider that they are generations closer than us to living in the dirt, and given that we are necessarily backing them [PRC] into a corner and thereby putting them [PRC] on a war footing, we’re kind of giving them no choice but to risk that ["living in the dirt," meaning nuclear armaggedon?]." -- The Alarmist
     
    When was the last time that we "backed them into a corner"? Would that be one of the occasions in the last few years when we stood up to them when Chinese gunboats ran down and sank Vietnamese fishing vessels? Or would it be when we bombed North Korean nuclear facilities? Or when we sent a team of Navy Seals into North Korea to rescue an American citizen who was being tortured to death? Or are you thinking of way back when North Korea attacked and seized the USS Pueblo and her crew? Or maybe it was when Kissinger in 1971 stood up to them and said that if the PRC would not assure the liberty of Taiwan, we would not let them take over the permanent China seat on the UNSC?

    Oh, I get it, it was when the neocons told the US Navy to allow the PRC's navy (including spy ship) to be allowed into the RIMCON exercises around Hawaii. right? Wow, we really backed them into a corner there, eh?

    Guess I have to repeat myself: the neo-cons in USA's government actually are on the payroll of, and act, if not always exactly according to instructions from the China Communist Party, then in any case are paid enough that they never do anything contrary to what the CCP/PRC wants.
  4. Michelle says:
    @jim jones
    North Korea has cute traffic cops:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pm8-5r0ty4

    I can’t watch it! It’s worse than baton twirling to the Star Spangled Banner. Just too embarrassing.

    Read More
  5. The PRNK nuclear posturing is quite likely a diversion staged by the Chicoms to prove American and western willingness to defend themselves. China is preparing its own Yuan-Gold oil market to take away business that has been dollar-denominated. That would be a serious threat to the dollar reserve currency role if taken to fruition.

    If one believes that Muammar Khadaffi was assassinated at the behest French and others angry at his Afrocurrency program, the Chinese oil gambit is not much of a leap of faith. Combine that with the Silk Road development and you begin to see the long game being played in Beijing to the detriment of Washington and the American way of life.

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  6. @jim jones
    North Korea has cute traffic cops:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pm8-5r0ty4

    “Seems to be the neo-con plan to defuse the Chinese economic threat … ” — The Alarmist

    Don’t get alarmed but seems to me that the neo-cons in USA’s government actually are on the payroll of, and act, if not always exactly according to instructions from the China Communist Party, then in any case are paid enough that they never do anything contrary to what the CCP/PRC wants.

    “If you think it will hurt China more to lose the US as a buyer, consider that they are generations closer than us to living in the dirt, and given that we are necessarily backing them [PRC] into a corner and thereby putting them [PRC] on a war footing, we’re kind of giving them no choice but to risk that ["living in the dirt," meaning nuclear armaggedon?].” — The Alarmist

    When was the last time that we “backed them into a corner”? Would that be one of the occasions in the last few years when we stood up to them when Chinese gunboats ran down and sank Vietnamese fishing vessels? Or would it be when we bombed North Korean nuclear facilities? Or when we sent a team of Navy Seals into North Korea to rescue an American citizen who was being tortured to death? Or are you thinking of way back when North Korea attacked and seized the USS Pueblo and her crew? Or maybe it was when Kissinger in 1971 stood up to them and said that if the PRC would not assure the liberty of Taiwan, we would not let them take over the permanent China seat on the UNSC?

    Oh, I get it, it was when the neocons told the US Navy to allow the PRC’s navy (including spy ship) to be allowed into the RIMCON exercises around Hawaii. right? Wow, we really backed them into a corner there, eh?

    Guess I have to repeat myself: the neo-cons in USA’s government actually are on the payroll of, and act, if not always exactly according to instructions from the China Communist Party, then in any case are paid enough that they never do anything contrary to what the CCP/PRC wants.

    Read More
  7. @The Alarmist
    Given the history, I wouldn't be in any hurry to nuke-up the Japanese. Nuking-up the South Koreans might carry less historical baggage, but let's be sensitive to the law of unintended consequences.

    The Chinese represent a serious economic threat, and that is the 800lb gorilla we are trying to tame, and doing so by destabilising the current Nork regime so that floods of poor Norks pour across the border only increases Chinese resolve to keep the status quo. China doesn't have the strategic resources to force Washington's hand, but it tends to play a longer-term game. Right now, Washington prevails by cutting problem-children out of access to global markets through things like sanctions: At some point trade in oil is going to be de-dollarised and things like SWIFT aren't going to make a rat's behind of difference to the Chicoms, or the Russians for that matter, in trade with other nations that want to sell their raw materials to what is increasingly become the primary set of bidders for their product.

    If you think it will hurt China more to lose the US as a buyer, consider that they are generations closer than us to living in the dirt, and given that we are necessarily backing them into a corner and thereby putting them on a war footing, we're kind of giving them no choice but to risk that. Seems to be the neo-con plan to defuse the Chinese economic threat, but they don't seem to realise the whole western world is now fatally dependent on cheap asian crap, and the flow of all of that, not just from China, will stop (regardless of who controls the seas) if we keep picking at the loose threads we have started to unravel on the Korean peninsula.

    Ooops, Alarmist, sorry, I seem to have confused you with jim jones

    Read More
  8. Ramz on NK.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Scalpel
    Iran has plenty of money to buy a North Korea nuke. North Korea needs money. It has probably already happened. Iran does not need to keep it in Iran, they could store that nuke many different places
  9. Priss Factor and Ramz leaves out something: before Kim Jong-un developed a nuclear bomb, the entire Korean Peninsula was a de facto nuclear free zone. Nuclear free regions are not as desirable as a nuclear-weapons-free planet, but still, it’s on the way to a world free of nuclear weapons. Why have we (US) given up that goal?

    THE BIG LIE is that North Korea needs nukes for protection from the USA. But just as South Korea hasn’t developed its own bomb because USA has that covered for them – so the same way for North Korea: it has China to cover its “need” for nuclear weapons.

    The analogy with Iran is ass-backwards.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    Oh, I see you found the Kool-Aid.

    Nukes and a perceived willingness to use them are Kim's life insurance policy. See Khadafi & Hussein (Saddam, not Barak).

  10. @Grandpa Charlie
    Ooops, Alarmist, sorry, I seem to have confused you with jim jones

    A little Kool-Aid might help with that.

    Read More
  11. @Grandpa Charlie
    Priss Factor and Ramz leaves out something: before Kim Jong-un developed a nuclear bomb, the entire Korean Peninsula was a de facto nuclear free zone. Nuclear free regions are not as desirable as a nuclear-weapons-free planet, but still, it's on the way to a world free of nuclear weapons. Why have we (US) given up that goal?

    THE BIG LIE is that North Korea needs nukes for protection from the USA. But just as South Korea hasn't developed its own bomb because USA has that covered for them - so the same way for North Korea: it has China to cover its "need" for nuclear weapons.

    The analogy with Iran is ass-backwards.

    Oh, I see you found the Kool-Aid.

    Nukes and a perceived willingness to use them are Kim’s life insurance policy. See Khadafi & Hussein (Saddam, not Barak).

    Read More
  12. “North Korea, by contrast, constantly harangues South Koreans that their nation is a US ‘puppet’ and ‘colony’ run by traitors. Pyongyang insists that North Korea is the authentic Korean state while the South is a mere US/Japanese colony.”

    That was true when they started saying it. Things changed slowly. It took decades. South Korea broke free economically, and in other ways, but not all way. Not in military matters.

    There may be a way out, looking back to the time when that was true. The South could work with the North. Many in the South want to do so. It is actually the North that now fears it. Hence, they could be “given” as much as they dared accept.

    Read More
  13. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Priss Factor
    Ramz on NK.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg0TvZEPTKE

    Iran has plenty of money to buy a North Korea nuke. North Korea needs money. It has probably already happened. Iran does not need to keep it in Iran, they could store that nuke many different places

    Read More
  14. No amount of threats or sanctions will get North Korea to give up its nuclear program. During the Korean War (1950-53) the US incinerated every city and town in North Korea and exterminated 25% of its population. That’s like killing 80,000,000 Americans today. The North Koreans did not surrender. Instead, they moved their cities, towns, factories, and surviving population into man-made tunnels and natural caves in the mountains bordering China. (See Part 22 of “The Korean War” on YouTube) Ike ran on a platform of ending the Korean War. He won and promptly signed a truce with Kim-Il-Sung (Kim Jong-un’s grandfather and the Ho Chi Minh of the Korean Resistance to Japanese rule before and during WWII). All that North Korea wants and has repeated asked for and which Russia and China have now proposed is the same deal that Bill Clinton offered and which North Korea accepted and honored until Bush came along and tore up the deal, calling North Korea part of the “axis of evil,” and which Obama refused to reconsider as well. And what is that deal? Simply that North Korea would freeze its nuclear and missile programs in place in exchange for the US and South Korea freezing their massive “Kim-decapitating,” “regime-changing” war games which are held twice a year right at rice-planting and rice-harvesting times when every able-bodied North Korean is needed in the rice paddies to avert. And in those years when North Korea has pulled people from the paddies to beef up the Armed Forces, thinking that the US and South Korea were planning to turn their war games into a real invasion that year, famine has occurred. And thousands of North Koreans have died. The mainstream media tell the American people none of this. But the solution is very simple. The MSM and now neocon-Trump only want war.

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  15. @grandpacharlie
    “Don’t get alarmed but seems to me that the neo-cons in USA’s government actually are on the payroll of, and act, if not always exactly according to instructions from the China Communist Party, then in any case are paid enough that they never do anything contrary to what the CCP/PRC wants. ”

    I had to stop and think about it, and when I did, I realized it would not surprise me.

    Not because of any deep-held conspiracy theories I hold about Chinese or Communists. But because the ‘neocons’ have always been very mercenary. The Neocons have shown they are repeated willing to be bought off and act as agents for almost anyone with money.

    dots to connect
    — Big Defense corporations have certainly bought lots of neocons. As a group, this is probably the owner of the biggest collection of neocons. Some in direct payments, but many through the intermediaries of ‘think tanks’ that help launder the money from the Merchants of Death. You can constantly find the neocons pushing for higher profits for the Merchants of Death, and anything that might reduce those profits is guaranteed to be opposed by armies of neocons writhing opeds and holding press seminars.

    — Willing to move from left to right. Sometimes one sees the roots of the original neocons traced back to being leftists associated with the communists. Which just tells you that this group of people was willing to change sides at the drop of a hat.

    —Willingness to move from left to right, part 2. There are numerous examples of neocon commentators that became neocon when they figured out that the neocons have much better funding.

    — Willingness to move from left to right. Note how all the Bush/Cheney war era neocons who were hardcore Republicans were supporting Hillary in the last election.

    — Fake Patriotism. While the prototypical neocon is wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross, the patriotism of this group is basically fake. They are quite willing to see America follow policies that harm America if it suits their ideaology.

    — Don’t Trust a Liar. Most of the people on this thread don’t like nor trust the neocons. I suspect others than myself listen to them and think that they are just flat out lying at least some of the time. So, the question becomes, are you willing to trust someone who’s willing to lie for a cause? Are you willing to really say that they would never be actually working for the Chinese?

    —Show me the Money. Never discount the power of having a lot of money to spend. Consider a young professor working in an university somewhere. What’s he/she making? Under $100,000 a year certainly. If someone walks up to them and offers them a million dollars with the prospects of more millions to come, just how loyal do you think this person really is? In today’s world, there are lots of people and organizations around that have enough money to turn the head of any ordinary person struggling to get by. So, its wise to remember that pretty much everyone around you can be bought. And China and its economy are big enough to have enough money to really turn the head of anyone living in a capitalists dog-eat-dog world that’s forcing everyone to race to the bottom.

    So, when I stopped and really thought about it, the notion that at least some neocons could be bought by entities in China. And you’d only need a few opinion movers and a few water carriers.
    The rest of the neocon pack is really just and echo chamber, so all you need is a crew big enough
    and loud enough to give off a good loud shout every-once-in-awhile.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Grandpa Charlie

    "I had to stop and think about it [that neo-cons in USA’s government actually are on the payroll of, and act, if not always exactly according to instructions from the China Communist Party, then in any case are paid enough that they never do anything contrary to what the CCP/PRC wants], and when I did, I realized it would not surprise me. ... Not because of any deep-held conspiracy theories I hold about Chinese or Communists. But because the ‘neocons’ have always been very mercenary." -- Diogenes' lantern
     
    The way I see it is that Henry Kissinger is the godfather of the neocons insofar as neocons do their evil work in the government on global strategic affairs and trade.

    It all started in 1971 with Kissinger's secret trip to Beijing to meet with Chou En Lai in order to sell out America by, among other things, assuring Beijing that the Vietnam War would continue for more years to come. Just as surely as Kim Jong-un is a multi-billionaire, Kissinger found soul mates in Beijing and was quickly able to arrange for the PRC to take over the China seat on the UNSC, thus cutting out the payola of Congress by the old "China Lobby" to be replaced by the new payola of the New China lobby. Things were different in one respect: the old China Lobby looked at Congress as a source of $USD for their personal fortunes, which they banked in the San Francisco branch of the Bank of Shanghai (at that time having greater deposits than any other bank in California), paying off Congress with a small percentage of the same dollars that Congress gave them to "fight Communism" (and some small percentage actually did go to that cause), whereas the New China lobby was actually interested mainly in political/military results ... and ultimately in a trade agreement with the USA (signed by Clinton in October 2000 and finalized with Bush's signature in December 2001).

    It's difficult for most people to understand this history, because they cannot imagine the cynicism and cupidity of most big-time Communists and of people like Kissinger, Clinton and Bush. China wanted the Vietnam War war to last as long as possible, because they never did trust Ho Chi Minh or ally with Vietnam. So that's what Kissinger arranged -- the death and destruction in Vietnam to continue for as long as Nixon would be President. (Likely, Kissinger helped to get the impeach-Nixon movement going in Congress when he realized that Nixon could not be relied on to keep the war going in Vietnam any longer.)

    Those who paid attention would see how this all played out when we watched the brutal short war that broke out in 1979 between PRC and Vietnam, which was all about Vietnam keeping its independence from China. (And that whole thing continued until 2014 or so, with Vietnam begging USA to help them against China, when it finally became really clear that the neocon power in Washington would never permit a real "pivot to Asia" -- because Washington's neocons would never endanger their blood money from the PRC.

    Just like you, Diogenes, I don't get very upset about China trying to undermine USA by paying off the neocons and Congress, that's "normal" I guess ... but I sure as hell get upset about treasonous betrayal of USA's troops in action! I even get upset with the neocons and with those members of Congress who were bought and paid to vote for the China trade deal back around, let's see, oh yeah, back around 9/11/2001

    And then what happened just this year? In late April, Trump began folding under pressure, firing first General Flynn and then, ultimately, Trump's chief strategist Steve Bannon (both leaders of the America Firsters against the neocons). And then in May, Trump met with President Xi of China and what do we see? The new expanded better-than-ever China trade deal -

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/12/us-hails-china-trade-deal-as-sign-relations-are-hitting-a-new-high

    And now just last month, what now? Oh yeah, Trump is complaining about China is cheating on the new trade agreement ...

    "Hey! you can't do that! I thought we had a deal!

    "Just to show China, I'll fire Bannon!"

    I still want to believe in President Trump, but about all we can say for him is that he isn't Hillary and in the primary he blew away the myth that the Bushes have any popularity in America at all - which is something as opposed to nothing.

    We will know that the neocons are totally back in power if we see USA bombing Iran and trying to blame it on Russia.
  16. Eric’s instinctive endorsement of ethnic nationalism so long as its directed against the white other is amusing. There are a lot of valid critiques of American foreign policy to be made, but these people do it as an expression of their anti-white attitudes.

    Read More
  17. @Diogenes' latern
    @grandpacharlie
    "Don’t get alarmed but seems to me that the neo-cons in USA’s government actually are on the payroll of, and act, if not always exactly according to instructions from the China Communist Party, then in any case are paid enough that they never do anything contrary to what the CCP/PRC wants. "

    I had to stop and think about it, and when I did, I realized it would not surprise me.

    Not because of any deep-held conspiracy theories I hold about Chinese or Communists. But because the 'neocons' have always been very mercenary. The Neocons have shown they are repeated willing to be bought off and act as agents for almost anyone with money.

    dots to connect
    --- Big Defense corporations have certainly bought lots of neocons. As a group, this is probably the owner of the biggest collection of neocons. Some in direct payments, but many through the intermediaries of 'think tanks' that help launder the money from the Merchants of Death. You can constantly find the neocons pushing for higher profits for the Merchants of Death, and anything that might reduce those profits is guaranteed to be opposed by armies of neocons writhing opeds and holding press seminars.

    --- Willing to move from left to right. Sometimes one sees the roots of the original neocons traced back to being leftists associated with the communists. Which just tells you that this group of people was willing to change sides at the drop of a hat.

    ---Willingness to move from left to right, part 2. There are numerous examples of neocon commentators that became neocon when they figured out that the neocons have much better funding.

    --- Willingness to move from left to right. Note how all the Bush/Cheney war era neocons who were hardcore Republicans were supporting Hillary in the last election.

    --- Fake Patriotism. While the prototypical neocon is wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross, the patriotism of this group is basically fake. They are quite willing to see America follow policies that harm America if it suits their ideaology.

    --- Don't Trust a Liar. Most of the people on this thread don't like nor trust the neocons. I suspect others than myself listen to them and think that they are just flat out lying at least some of the time. So, the question becomes, are you willing to trust someone who's willing to lie for a cause? Are you willing to really say that they would never be actually working for the Chinese?

    ---Show me the Money. Never discount the power of having a lot of money to spend. Consider a young professor working in an university somewhere. What's he/she making? Under $100,000 a year certainly. If someone walks up to them and offers them a million dollars with the prospects of more millions to come, just how loyal do you think this person really is? In today's world, there are lots of people and organizations around that have enough money to turn the head of any ordinary person struggling to get by. So, its wise to remember that pretty much everyone around you can be bought. And China and its economy are big enough to have enough money to really turn the head of anyone living in a capitalists dog-eat-dog world that's forcing everyone to race to the bottom.

    So, when I stopped and really thought about it, the notion that at least some neocons could be bought by entities in China. And you'd only need a few opinion movers and a few water carriers.
    The rest of the neocon pack is really just and echo chamber, so all you need is a crew big enough
    and loud enough to give off a good loud shout every-once-in-awhile.

    “I had to stop and think about it [that neo-cons in USA’s government actually are on the payroll of, and act, if not always exactly according to instructions from the China Communist Party, then in any case are paid enough that they never do anything contrary to what the CCP/PRC wants], and when I did, I realized it would not surprise me. … Not because of any deep-held conspiracy theories I hold about Chinese or Communists. But because the ‘neocons’ have always been very mercenary.” — Diogenes’ lantern

    The way I see it is that Henry Kissinger is the godfather of the neocons insofar as neocons do their evil work in the government on global strategic affairs and trade.

    It all started in 1971 with Kissinger’s secret trip to Beijing to meet with Chou En Lai in order to sell out America by, among other things, assuring Beijing that the Vietnam War would continue for more years to come. Just as surely as Kim Jong-un is a multi-billionaire, Kissinger found soul mates in Beijing and was quickly able to arrange for the PRC to take over the China seat on the UNSC, thus cutting out the payola of Congress by the old “China Lobby” to be replaced by the new payola of the New China lobby. Things were different in one respect: the old China Lobby looked at Congress as a source of $USD for their personal fortunes, which they banked in the San Francisco branch of the Bank of Shanghai (at that time having greater deposits than any other bank in California), paying off Congress with a small percentage of the same dollars that Congress gave them to “fight Communism” (and some small percentage actually did go to that cause), whereas the New China lobby was actually interested mainly in political/military results … and ultimately in a trade agreement with the USA (signed by Clinton in October 2000 and finalized with Bush’s signature in December 2001).

    It’s difficult for most people to understand this history, because they cannot imagine the cynicism and cupidity of most big-time Communists and of people like Kissinger, Clinton and Bush. China wanted the Vietnam War war to last as long as possible, because they never did trust Ho Chi Minh or ally with Vietnam. So that’s what Kissinger arranged — the death and destruction in Vietnam to continue for as long as Nixon would be President. (Likely, Kissinger helped to get the impeach-Nixon movement going in Congress when he realized that Nixon could not be relied on to keep the war going in Vietnam any longer.)

    Those who paid attention would see how this all played out when we watched the brutal short war that broke out in 1979 between PRC and Vietnam, which was all about Vietnam keeping its independence from China. (And that whole thing continued until 2014 or so, with Vietnam begging USA to help them against China, when it finally became really clear that the neocon power in Washington would never permit a real “pivot to Asia” — because Washington’s neocons would never endanger their blood money from the PRC.

    Just like you, Diogenes, I don’t get very upset about China trying to undermine USA by paying off the neocons and Congress, that’s “normal” I guess … but I sure as hell get upset about treasonous betrayal of USA’s troops in action! I even get upset with the neocons and with those members of Congress who were bought and paid to vote for the China trade deal back around, let’s see, oh yeah, back around 9/11/2001

    And then what happened just this year? In late April, Trump began folding under pressure, firing first General Flynn and then, ultimately, Trump’s chief strategist Steve Bannon (both leaders of the America Firsters against the neocons). And then in May, Trump met with President Xi of China and what do we see? The new expanded better-than-ever China trade deal -

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/12/us-hails-china-trade-deal-as-sign-relations-are-hitting-a-new-high

    And now just last month, what now? Oh yeah, Trump is complaining about China is cheating on the new trade agreement …

    “Hey! you can’t do that! I thought we had a deal!

    “Just to show China, I’ll fire Bannon!”

    I still want to believe in President Trump, but about all we can say for him is that he isn’t Hillary and in the primary he blew away the myth that the Bushes have any popularity in America at all – which is something as opposed to nothing.

    We will know that the neocons are totally back in power if we see USA bombing Iran and trying to blame it on Russia.

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