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Another Big Step to a Major War

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Russian Jet Shot Down by Turkey. Credit: Daily Mirror

Turn to page 214 in the book “War-making for Dummies.” You will find: “plan air operations right on your neighbor’s border, zig in and zag out, make rude gestures at enemy pilots, and shoot them down if you can.”

On Tuesday this week, the inevitable air clash occurred on the Syrian-Turkish border west of Aleppo. From what we know so far, two Russian SU-24 bombers that had been pounding anti-Damascus forces on the border briefly intruded on Turkish airspace for all of 17 seconds.

Turkish F-16 fighters, clearly pre-positioned in the area, pounced on the Russians and downed one Sukhoi with an air-to-air missiles. One of the Russian pilots was killed – probably by pro-Turkish Syrian tribesmen while parachuting to earth. A Russian Marine was killed when the helicopter in which he was flying to rescue the downed airman was hit by a US-supplied TOW anti-tank missile.

Turkey claimed it had warned the Russian warplane 10 times’ before shooting. How the Turks could pre-position its F-16’s and issue ten warnings within 17 seconds was not explained. Russia’s president Vladimir Putin furiously accused the Turks of murder and supporting ISIS extremists.

The US-led NATO alliance rushed to back up member Turkey, which moved forces to its long border with Syria. Putin ordered lethal, long-ranged S-400 anti-aircraft missiles to Syria and missile cruiser “Moskva” to station off Syria’s Mediterranean coast. Both systems can cover large parts of western Syria, including areas routinely intruded upon by US, French, British and Israeli aircraft.

In short, a perfect witch’s stew for the beginning of a real war between Russia and the West that has been simmering in Syria and Ukraine. US forces are now operating in both nations within spitting distance of Russian troops.

The location of this Russo-Turkish clash was very interesting, though unnoted by western media. It occurred along the southern end of a small, narrow salient of Turkish territory jutting into Syria.

The Turkish territory in question is Hatay Province: it contains the former Crusader stronghold of Antioch and the important port of Iskenderun. Hatay has been the arena of military crises since the first recorded battle there in 853 BC.

Hatay belonged to historic Syria until detached after World War I by Syria’s French colonial masters and handed to Turkey in an attempt to bribe the Turks to become French allies. Syria has long demanded the return of Hatay.

This week’s clash over Hatay will likely revive Syrian demands for a return of Hatay. Turkey dismisses all Syrian claims. The groundwork has thus been laid for a new Syrian-Turkish conflict.

Who is to blame for the latest crisis on the Turkish-Syrian border? Both sides. Neither should have been flying combat patrols over the border region. There should have been a minimum ten km buffer zone on both sides of the sensitive border.

Turkish trigger-happy hotheads are to blame for authorizing deadly force when a few wing wags would have served to warn off the Russians – if they were in fact intruding. Turkey is in no position to claim it’s the injured party when arms, munitions and logistics support for ISIS has been pouring across its border into Syria for almost five years.

Russia, which accidentally shot down a South Korean airliner in 1982, is no angel either. Nor the US, which downed an Iranian airliner in 1988.

Turkey is point-man for the odd coalition of stealthy ISIS backers that includes the US, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Egypt, France and Britain. ISIS is their weapon of choice against Shia Iran and its Syrian and Lebanese allies and, very soon, Taliban in Afghanistan. Problem is, they back ISIS but can’t control its youthful members. The rabid dog they helped breed is now running around biting people.

By picking a fight with Russia, Turkey is shooting itself in the foot. Russia and the predecessor of modern Turkey, the Ottoman Empire, fought innumerable wars from the 1680’s until World War I. Russia has never abandoned its desire to seize the Straits, as Constantinople and the Dardanelles were called.

Turkey exports $4 billion to Russia, and imports large quantities of wheat, oil, gas, steel. Four and a half million Russian tourists come annually to Turkey. Shooting down a Russian warplane will make hyper-nationalist Turks beat their chests but the hangover will seriously damage Turkey’s unsteady economy.

Putin and Turkey’s Erdogan should meet asap to resolve their issue before it becomes yet another step on the road to World War III.

(Reprinted from EricMargolis.com by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: ISIS, Russia, Syria, Turkey 

112 Comments to "Another Big Step to a Major War"

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  1. Oddly enough no mention of the fact that only the Russian forces are in Syria legally.

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  2. As I stated before, I read Alexander Cockburn (MI5/6 writer) and Eric Margolis (CIA writer) because I do not peruse the Western MSM sewerage channels. How would one know what sewerage the regime wants to load our brains up with (it is all one regime in all Western countries, remotely controlled by the Zionist controlled Deep State) if one does not peruse a sample.

    From what we know so far, two Russian SU-24 bombers that had been pounding anti-Damascus forces on the border briefly intruded on Turkish airspace for all of 17 seconds.

    Eh, Margolis, you are behind the ball there a little, even NATO has moved away from this Turkish claim and has been passing around thermal imaging that the Russian plane never entered into the Turkish territory. Maybe your CIA handler was given obsolete talking points?

    Who is to blame for the latest crisis on the Turkish-Syrian border? Both sides. … Turkey is point-man for the odd coalition of stealthy ISIS backers that includes the US, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Egypt, France and Britain. … Russia has never abandoned its desire to seize the Straits, as Constantinople and the Dardanelles were called.

    Margolis propaganda technique is quite simple – combine unpleasant established knowns (e.g. that the West owns ISIS) to gain cred with claims of Russian deviousness. In other words, unlike the cheap propagandists for the prols, who always push: “we good, Russia bad” and use blatant lies, the Margolis’ technique is:
    1) when we do bad then “both sides are bad”,
    2) when the Russians do something bad – “we good, they bad”.

    In other words, Margolis aims to shift the opinions of his target audience (the Anglo quasi-intellectuals), he does not try to reverse them. This is a higher level propaganda, this why he must be paid better than the presstitutes for the prols.

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  3. My bad, it is Patrick Cockburn, not Alexander. Alexander Cockburn was one of the greatest journalists ever (although left-wing), a complete opposite to this trashy British regime scribe Patrick.

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  4. Patrick Cockburn is Alexander Cockburn’s brother, yes?

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  5. I thought he was, but gone to the dark side. I will research and come back on it.

  6. Leftist conservative [AKA "radical_centrist"]
    says:
    • Website     Show CommentNext New Comment

    yawn….who cares? Another manufactured war for the sheeple…

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  7. I have found Margolis of interest. I do not see an evil plot behind every bush.

  8. “…only the Russian forces are in Syria legally”
    Exactly!
    But this summary was good:”Turkish F-16 fighters, clearly pre-positioned in the area, pounced on the Russians and downed one Sukhoi with an air-to-air missiles. … Turkey claimed it had warned the Russian warplane 10 times’ before shooting. How the Turks could pre-position its F-16’s and issue ten warnings within 17 seconds was not explained.”

    And now this very special NATO member refuses to hand the Russian military attache any materials on Turkey’s attack on Russia’s Sukhoi Su-24M. Splendid. One can be assured that the “17 sec violation & 10 warnings” story is a lie. This means that it is quite possible that Turkey was acting on the CIA orders.

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  9. That was harsh but well deserved

  10. Yes, they were brothers:

    He (Patrick) had two brothers, also journalists, the late Alexander Cockburn, who died in 2012, and Andrew Cockburn, and a half-sister, mystery writer Sarah Caudwell.

    Please read wikipedia on bothe brothers, it is most interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Cockburn

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Cockburn

    Patrick was a Russia watcher and a Syria watcher for Britain. A kind of contenporary James Bond of Irish origins, with a licence to kill any critical thought in the brains of unsuspecting readers. A holier-than-thou servant of the British empire, because there is nothing worse than an Irishman serving the British regime, he has so much to prove.

    Finally, you must compare the lists of journalistic awards than Alexander got and Patrick got. You guessed it – Alexander got none, but Patrick has half a page long list of them – there is no new award to get. Is that not so instructive – you serve the regime, the dark side, and all the regime awards imaginable are heaped up on you. You serve the truth, and you die of cancer poor. Alexander Cockburn is probably the closest anyone ever got to being another George Orwell, but in maximal irony, it was his brother Patrick who got even this award named after one of the greatest Britons ever.

    When will Margolis get the George Orwell Journalistic Award?

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  11. Do we have to have these tedious comments after every article by the excellent Eric Margolis and Patrick Cockburn, both highly respected experts on the region, who unsurprisingly struggle to get published in the MSM?

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  12. The Turkmen rebels may be Al-Qaeda affiliates; they’re not Daesh/ISIS.
    If the Russian plane entered Turkey at all across the narrow salient as claimed by the Turks, it would have to have been for far less than 17 seconds.
    By the Turks’ own account, the warnings they issued where given over several minutes while the Russian jet was in Syrian airspace.
    The reality is that the Turks were giving air cover to the Turkmen rebels in Syria, they regard Russian or Syrian jets in Syrian airspace within ca 20km of the border as illegitimate, and they shot the jet down in Syria for attacking Turkmen rebels in Syria.

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  13. Why Russia is saying that it now would import all the agricultural products from Israel instead from Turkey? Why not Latin America or Iran or China or even Canada?
    Everybody is tiptoeing around Israel when Israel is the country that has been exercising strong control on Anerica UK France,Saudi and Gulf when it does to Assad.
    So called bad relation between Israel and Tukey is possibly for the public consumption .
    Egypt ‘s is another country that Russia can tap into. It’s tourism was punished for not being on board with Saudi Turkey West plans on Assad ( I think also the Jihadist free movement across N Africa to Syria has been sevely curtailed by Egypt’s military ) Egypt is no longer talked much other than floating of rumors by Israel that Sisi might not survive the terror attack on Sinai . Interesting forecast!

  14. Who asked you to read my comments? Just skip my comments, they are not for you. I usually skip your worthless comments.

  15. The price of free discussion.

  16. Who is to blame for the latest crisis on the Turkish-Syrian border? Both sides. Neither should have been flying combat patrols over the border region. There should have been a minimum ten km buffer zone on both sides of the sensitive border.

    This is an inappropriate false equivalence.

    Syria and Russia are not fomenting and supporting an armed rebellion in Turkey, whereas Turkey is doing just that in Syria. An exclusion zone of this kind would merely give a guarantee of safety from air attack to the rebels along the border.

    Turkey should be under severe pressure from its NATO allies to back off from the border and turn the Nelsonian blind eye towards Syrian and Russian operations there. Of course, that would assume the said NATO partners were honest brokers themselves, which they are not.

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  17. Putin and Turkey’s Erdogan should meet asap to resolve their issue before it becomes yet another step on the road to World War III.

    For sure it is not in the interests of either Russia or Turkey to be at each other’s throats, but any restoration of good relations will require either Turkey to back off from its interference in Syria, or Russia to back down in its support of its ally there.

    Neither seems imminent at the moment.

  18. Hi, I’m Johnny One Note. I am the only one who sees the truth. It is a shame that I am the only one who sees the truth, but being the only one who sees the truth is my burden to bear. Hi, did I mention that I’m the only one who sees the truth?

    Your shtick is wearing thin. Thin like Whiskey.

  19. Of course, the circumstances of this shoot-down are shady as hell. Vlad Putin should demand an apology and compensation. If neither are forthcoming, he should attack a Turkish military target.

  20. “If neither are forthcoming, he should attack a Turkish military target.”

    That would be unwise. The patsy Erdogan has made himself highly vulnerable on many fronts already. The upcoming economic sanctions from RF will harm a lot of ordinary citizens in Turkey, whereas Erdogan’ reputation has been badly stained. So much for NATO membership.

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  21. This is an interesting commentary on Colonel Lang blog:

    http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2015/11/thoughts-on-turkeys-foreign-policy-objectives-in-syria-by-cp.html#comments

    “When the “polite green men” took guard over Crimea and blocked the roads to the continent that was in preemption of a takeover by a Right Sektor force that was coming from Kiev. A Right Sektor group earlier had attacked a bus full of people from Crimea who were on their way back from Kiev.
    But there was another movement parallel to the Right Sektor force. A large group of Tartars was coming by plane from Turkey. Allegedly they had been trained there. The “polite green men” took over the Crimea airport and blocked it for a full day. The flight from Turkey turned around in midair and flew back to Ankara.
    There was little published about the move and background but there is clearly more behind the Tartars-against-Russia group that now cut the electricity than just some local anger.
    I find it likely that Turkey has very good connections with them and that Nuland’s putsch in Kiev was/is supported by Erdogan.
    Aside from that: Now within Russia the rights of Tartars in Crimea significantly increased. There language is now official (next to Russian and Ukrainian) and they can learn and teach their language in school. Tartars which Stalin had moved from Crimea (or their children) are now free to return. All these are rights they never had under Ukrainian rule.”

    Curiosier and curiosier: Kiev putschists have been indeed employing the jihadis, with the US blessing: http://www.voltairenet.org/article183864.html

  22. Yes, annamarina, one of the collateral damages is further weakening of NATO. The US supported Turkey within NATO because it probably organized the shoot-down via CIA, as I wrote before. But several European members of NATO looked upon Turkey as an archetypal loose cannon, which could drag them into a nuclear war against Russia. So, the US pulled back a little, to maintain peace in its dog-kennel of NATO.

    But, there are some interesting news from Russia. It appears that Putin has blamed Obama for the shoot-down (and thus restored my belief in Putin). I wrote before that the US trick was to sign an air-force coordination agreement with Russia, which Russia was very keen on to avoid a clash in the air with the US (even though the US is bombing Syria completely illegally), and then sick its Turkish dog onto Russia to bite. Well Putin said even more: it was the US which gave Turkey the flight path of its plane so that it can organize the ambush. Therefore, Russia supplied its flight information to the US, which passed it on to Turkey to shoot-down a Russian plane.

    Most of the Western sewerage MSM are focusing on Russia-Tukey clash, as they call it. But the Russians are not so dumb to swallow such sewerage.

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  23. As a minor footnote, the actress Olivia Wilde (real name: Olivia Cockburn) is the niece of Alexander Cockburn and Patrick Cockburn. Her father is Andrew Cockburn, brother of Alexander and Patrick.

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  24. “The Turkmen rebels may be Al-Qaeda affiliates; they’re not Daesh/ISIS.”

    Well, that is certainly encouraging news. Didn’t Al Qaeda supposedly attack us on 9/11? And wasn’t Al Qaeda our enemy long before anyone dreamed up ISIS? In fact, as I recall, we used the attack by Al Qaeda on 9/11 to justify our invasion of Iraq (which had no connection whatsoever to 9/11), and it was our invasion and occupation of Iraq which led to the formation of ISIS.

  25. Silly stuff as you obviously don’t know anything relevant but rely on emotions generated by your somehow acquired mindset. Instead you should consider the possibility – based on accepting pro tem the 17 seconds and possibility of multiple warnings – that the Turks were waiting for an excuse to shoot down a Russian bomber that was being used to bomb targets they didn’t want bombed provided they could put up some flimsy justification. Thus they made sure that sooner or later their aircraft would be in a position to shoot when,as would almost inevitably happen, a Russian aircraft crossed the border of the enclave which is Turkish territory. The warnings could have been rapid fire English language messages which started as the Russian plane was near the enclave but unlikely to be understood and responded to in time.

    No need for NATO or CIA. Just Turkey doing something which, inter alia, might increase tension between Russia and NATO.

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  26. How the Turks could pre-position its F-16’s

    It’s called an air patrol.

    and issue ten warnings within 17 seconds

    It wasn’t in the 17 seconds. You get a warning when you make a run towards the border. You get shot when you cross.

    was not explained.

    Here’s your explanation. It is even in the turk-basher infested wikipedia.

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  27. a bit contradictory. The article starts by saying pro Turkish Syrians attacked and killed the Russian pilot and rescue soldier. But then it says the Turks are effectively occupying historically Syrian land.

  28. Do you understand and speak Russian and/or Ukrainian well? If so how much time do you spend listening to and watching Russian and Ukrainian media? I ask be cause, on the assumption that you tell the truth it will help me to balance the quality of information in your comments with the information that I get from a friend who undoubtedly listens to and understands both. One example he gave of blatant lying by RT was a report (originally read in the English transcript version of Ukrainian governor supposedly saying that the German invaders were better than the Soviets and denigrating the Red Army in WW2. As my friend is bilingual in Ukrainian he listened to the speech and knew that the Governor said almost the opposite, criticising Putin after what, in WW2, the great Red Army had done to defend Ukraine against the savage Germans.

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  29. Please consider my question to Kiza about languages in #28 (I think) as addressed to you also.

    I see BTW that Anon Turk has firmed up my hypothetical explanation of what happened.

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  30. The Turkmen rebels may be Al-Qaeda affiliates; they’re not Daesh/ISIS.

    You say “Tow-may-tow,” I say “Tow-mah-tow.” Al-Qaeda affiliates, Daesh/ISIS, what’s the difference? They’re ALL Moslem fanatics yes? All screaming “Oahu Assdarts” before a loud bang or upon seeing dead/dying “infidels.” In fact, ISIS is nothing more (or less) than the new and current caliphate. In case you missed your Moslem fanatics primer, all Moslem fanatics must submit to the caliph. The caliph is like the Moslem Pope, his authority comes directly from their pedophile prophet. He’s Joseph Smith with a towel wrapped around his head. For the Moslem, he who is most fanatic is the truest believer and ultimate authority. Hence the caliph to whom all Moslems must ultimately submit. Attempting to differentiate between different factions of fanatics is a fools errand. Playing games supporting one faction against the other only guarantees twin towers, London tubes, Madrid trains, and Paris nightclubs will be collateral damage.

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  31. May I point towards your bad manners, again? If you have something tangible to refute my post, please do that. Otherwise, here is more on the premeditated murder by patsy Turkey:

    “Turkey actively sought to ambush and bring down the Russian jet starting long before the actual missile was fired, which can be confirmed by the flight patterns of Turkish warplanes which had taken off well in advance, otherwise they would not have had enough time to reach the battle zone.” http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-27/chief-russian-air-force-accuses-turkey-coordinated-ambush-downed-warplane

    “The American side, which leads the coalition that Turkey belongs to, knew about the location and time of our planes’ flights, and we were hit exactly there and at that time” http://news.yahoo.com/us-knew-flight-path-plane-downed-turkey-putin-202631534.html

    “Turkish F-16 attacked Russian Su-24 without warning, both were above Syria – commander” https://www.rt.com/news/323651-turkey-su24-downing-syria/

    “The attack on the Russian plane was preconceived on November 22 when a security summit was held with the Turkish government under Prime Minister Davutoğlu and the Turkish Armed Forces. Davutoğlu personally gave the order to shoot down Russian planes. This, Turkey says, was necessary to stop Russian bombing of “Turkmen” in north Syria’s Latakia near the Turkish border.” http://www.moonofalabama.org/2015/11/the-context-of-yesterdays-turkish-attack-against-the-russian-jet.html

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  32. What a strange and not particularly polite request. I am not your relative or subordinate: if you need to satisfy your curiosity about differences in translation from Russian and Ukrainian into English, look for professional help. You continue bringing up the opinions of your mystical friend “who undoubtedly listens to and understands both [Russian and Ukrainian];” these transmissions of yours remind of a children’s’ game “Chinese whispers” (a broken telephone).

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  33. Russia, which accidentally shot down a South Korean airliner in 1982, is no angel either.

    Not sure we can hang all the albatrosses of the USSR around the neck of the Russian Federation.

  34. Interesting…but why? Why would the Turks shoot down the plane? When did Russia declare war on Turkey? Did we miss that big news?

    And shouldn’t Turkish planes that have repeatedly violated Greek and Syrian airspace be shot down as well? And was it not Mr Erdogan who went ballistic three years ago when one of his planes supposedly inadvertently slipped into the wrong airspace and got shot, saying with tears in his eyes that these things happen and that it should be no excuse to fire upon a plane? The man’s near-lunatic hypocrisy is astounding (or is it “chutzpah”?) and the sooner Turkey is rid of him the better.

    Also, I don’t recall Turkey being invited by Syria to help them destroy ISIS, nor do I recall any other country (other than Russia) being invited. I believe there is a term for a nation that enters another country and starts bombing away.

    FYI: http://journal-neo.org/2015/11/28/erdogans-russian-roulette-was-it-only-about-oily-revenge/

  35. Well finally someone mentioned the Hatay Province

    Apart from maps showing Hatay as Syrian territory, the Syrian policy has been to avoid discussing Hatay and giving evasive answers when asked to specify Syrian future goals and ambitions with regard to the area. This has included a complete media silence on the issue.[20]


    Sovereignty over the province remains disputed with neighbouring Syria, which claims that the province was separated from itself against the stipulations of the French Mandate of Syria in the years following Syria’s independence from the Ottoman Empire after World War I. Although the two countries have remained generally peaceful in their dispute over the territory, Syria has never formally renounced its rights to it. Its provincial capital is the city of Hatay. The traffic code is 31.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatay_Province

    The Hatay Provence is for Turkey as the Golan Heights is for Israel. Both are extremely valuable pieces of Syrian real estate very much coveted by her neighbors. In both cases Syria’s neighbors have just sort of taken possession of the land and sort of just kind of, you know, acted like it’s theirs. If Assad were to be removed from power, then it’s a no brainer that Israel would claim the Golan and Turkey would claim Hatay, as Syria would be carved up and picked apart by the (with apologies to feathered and far more attractive and noble ones) human vultures. Sort of the way Iraq and Libya have descended into tribal chaos and a play ground for the world’s international criminals and assorted arms dealers and drug and human traffickers.

    Here’s a map of Syria with the Hatay sort of a shade of a color lighter at the top left

    http://www.seattleglobalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Syria-Map.jpg

    here’s maps that show the Hatay as clearly part of Syria

    https://egyptcruise.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/syria-map.jpg?w=627

    http://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=OIP.Me40e65f3dd5cf12d99ce239eb86329b6H0&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

    http://www.syrianews.cc/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Syria-Map.jpg

    but most maps available to us in the west show the Hatay as part of Turkey.

    Where the Russian jet was shot down is at the very bottom tip of the Hatay in disputed territory.

    This week’s clash over Hatay will likely revive Syrian demands for a return of Hatay. Turkey dismisses all Syrian claims. The groundwork has thus been laid for a new Syrian-Turkish conflict.

    this is not new, it has been simmering and is no doubt a main reason Turkey wants to oust Assad and is acting as ISIS logistics base.

    Who is to blame for the latest crisis on the Turkish-Syrian border? Both sides. Neither should have been flying combat patrols over the border region. There should have been a minimum ten km buffer zone on both sides of the sensitive border.

    When he says “Neither” the Russian or the Turks should have by flying combat patrols- what he’s saying is that we should all leave ISIS alone if they’re the magical ones that we’ve dubbed “moderates”, and are not really bad at all.

    here you see the fundamental problem when the west seems to have completely sided with ISIS and is suggesting that we should leave ISIS unmolested so long as they’re also dedicated to the removal of Assad.

    rather than lamenting that the two sides should not have been in the area, an area that is obviously filled with AK waving, stone age sub-humans like the ones that shot the parachuting pilot and murdered the Russian marine on a rescue mission. Rather than crying about Russia flying too close to “Turkey’s” border and risking a confrontation with Turkey, what the world and this journalist should be asking is why isn’t the Turkish air force cooperating with Russia and helping them to kill these ISIS head-slicing, murderous animals.

    It just even further goes to show the hypocrisy and dishonestly and treachery of the occupied west and our completely controlled venal and rotten media who all lie in unison when it serves the drooling Zio-Moloch that is menacing the area with its insatiable appetite for death and misery and profit.

    God speed to Putin and Assad and the Syrian people and God damn the liars and thieves and sub-humans and vultures and assorted scum of every stripe that are foisting this madness on millions of innocent people for their own fun and profit. God damn Erdogan and Obama and all the liars and assorted war pigs. May they rot in hell for what they’ve wrought.

    ; )

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  36. 1) when we do bad then “both sides are bad”,
    2) when the Russians do something bad – “we good, they bad”.

    In other words, Margolis aims to shift the opinions of his target audience (the Anglo quasi-intellectuals), he does not try to reverse them.

    yep

    good analysis

  37. With due respect to Eric Margolis, I think sometimes he needs to study Ottoman-Russian history from some objective source.

    Ottoman empire never attacked Czarist Russia. Russo-Turkish Wars were mostly sparked by Russia’s attempts to establish a warm-water port on the Black Sea, which lay in Turkish hands.

    Soviet Russia occupied several neighboring Muslim countries and finally met his Doomsday in Afghanistan in the 1980s, which was witnessed by Margolis himself.

    Ottoman empire was destroyed from within – Crypto-Jews and Arabs helping the western colonialists.

    I remember how the Russian-Israeli Jewish writer, Israel Shamir, cried: “Ottoman empire, please come back”.

    Turkey’s downing of Russian jet was part of the US’s proxy war for Israel against Iran. But, considering that Soviet-US survived 50-year of the so-called “Cold War” without shooting at each other – there is no reason they would like to start WWIII – unless, of course, Germany produce another Hitler and commit a new Holocaust.

    On September 15, 2014, the Israeli propagandist Wall Street Journal claimed that 184 anti-Jew incidents were “investigated” in Germany during the months of June and July this year.

    http://rehmat1.com/2014/09/30/hello-houston-germany-still-has-jewish-problem/

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  38. This is an inappropriate false equivalence.

    Syria and Russia are not fomenting and supporting an armed rebellion in Turkey, whereas Turkey is doing just that in Syria. An exclusion zone of this kind would merely give a guarantee of safety from air attack to the rebels along the border.

    yep

    Turkey should be under severe pressure from its NATO allies to back off from the border and turn the Nelsonian blind eye towards Syrian and Russian operations there

    that would be if they were honest and actually not allies and supporters of ISIS, which they are

    they’re very sensitive about that border. It’s one of the main reasons they’re supporting ISIS in order to maintain that border as their own, even tho it’s disputed and is still considered Syrian land by many, many people. Once they destroy the country and murder Assad and it all descend into chaos al la Libya, then the drooling dogs and hungry vultures will feast on the carcass

    (with apologies to real dogs and vultures)

  39. Therefore, Russia supplied its flight information to the US, which passed it on to Turkey to shoot-down a Russian plane.

    Most of the Western sewerage MSM are focusing on Russia-Tukey clash, as they call it. But the Russians are not so dumb to swallow such sewerage.

    Gosh, the way you and others like Kiza use the word ‘sewerage’ it almost sounds like you’re combining the words ‘journalistic’ coverage with sewage and suggesting that when a western journalists or media outlet or even politician is talking about what’s happening here (or anywhere else) that the words that come out of their mouths are like so much dripping shit, foul and feculent and like it’s not words, but rather sewage that is forming in their mouths and emitting out of their face holes. As if they were and always are lying with a vile agenda of murder and theft and trying always to deceive because if even for one second, the American people and the rest of the world were to ever find out the real truth behind their endless and relentless lies, that they’d make them eat that ‘sewerage’.

    Golly

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  40. the actress Olivia Wilde

    Oh

    MY

    GOD!

    http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/15/2f/07/152f07e37cc0fe178881941b6f39673c.jpg

    http://peanutchuck.com/photos/2013/04/olivia-wilde-amour-2013-001.jpg

    http://vistanews.ru/uploads/posts/2015-04/medium/1428560415_l3.jpg

    deadly

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  41. And you point is that the press lies and shape the news to fit an agenda.

    It is our job to separate the propaganda from the truth.

  42. and others like Kiza

    oops, I confused you with annamarina

  43. The Turkmen that killed the Russian pilot were mostly foreign fighters from Turkey:

    http://fortruss.blogspot.com/2015/11/syrian-rebels-waiting-on-ground-to-kill.html

    Wiki says that they, the turkmen terrorists, are “the most radical wing of Turkish ultranationalists, adhering to the ideology of Pan-Turkism and neo-fascism. They’ve participated in political violence as part of the international anti-communism system ‘Gladio’. In the past, they were implicated in hundreds of murders of ethnic minorities, as well as several major assassinations and acts of terrorism, including an attempt to kill Pope John Paul II, and a couple hundred of them also came to Russia to fight on the side of the Chechen terrorists. These days, their actions are mainly directed against Kurds and other ethic and religious minorities within Turkey.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Wolves_%28organization%29

    I would consider them to be the Turkish equivalent to the Sloboda fascists in Ukraine that the US and its NATO allies also supports.

  44. says:
         Show CommentNext New Comment

    Alexander Cockburn was one of the greatest journalists ever (although left-wing), a complete opposite to this trashy British regime scribe Patrick.

    Please. Alexander Cockburn was not “one of the greatest journalists ever” and he was not very different from his “trashy British regime scribe” brother.

    Alexander Cockburn was little more than a fake left gatekeeper, whose career was dedicated to steering his readers away from questioning any “official story”. He defended the official story on the JFK assassination, on 9-11, and on intelligence-related pedophile activities like the McMartin school cases. Not only did he defend the official stories, but he also engaged in vicious personal attacks on investigators and whistle-blowers in all these cases. And he was a climate-change denialist.

    • Replies:
  45. wizard,

    One example he gave of blatant lying by RT was a report … … saying that the German invaders were better than the Soviets and denigrating the Red Army in WW2.

    This lying was done by RT? RT was demonizing the Red Army and lavishing praise on the Nazis?

    Really wizard? You’re usually at least nominally articulate, but perhaps you’re just a little confused here.

    As my friend is bilingual in Ukrainian he listened to the speech and knew that the Governor said almost the opposite, criticising Putin after what, in WW2, the great Red Army had done to defend Ukraine against the savage Germans.

    criticizing Putin for what? What was Putin doing? Saying that the German Nazis were better than the Russian Soviet invaders? WTF are you even trying to say wizard?

    I thought the whole point of your post is that people should understand languages more so that people aren’t confused by bullshit and equivocations and misleading tripe, but I can’t figure out what the f*** you’re even trying to say, unless it’s that Putin and RT are going around cheering the Nazis and fascists and heaping condemnations upon the Russian Red Army of the time. Which I have to tell you wizard, I doubt. If that is the case I wish you’d include a link. And if that isn’t the case, then it looks like you’re just being full of shit like usual.

    That said, it wasn’t the “savage” Germans who starved millions of the world’s most successful farmers to death on their own farms was it wizard? It was the Reds, the Bolsheviks and Lazar Kaganovich and his Jewish henchmen running the NKVD who did that. So if that’s the treatment that they got from the Soviets and Bolsheviks and Red Army during those evil days, the savage Germans must have been pretty bad to make the Red Army rapists and genocidal mass-murderers look good by comparison. Huh?

    • Replies:
  46. “God speed to Putin and Assad and the Syrian people and God damn the liars and thieves and sub-humans and vultures and assorted scum of every stripe that are foisting this madness on millions of innocent people for their own fun and profit. God damn Erdogan and Obama and all the liars and assorted war pigs. May they rot in hell for what they’ve wrought.”

    Couldn’t have said it better myself!

    • Replies:
  47. Here is a good youtube on Syria.

    The Syrian Situation w/ Brad Hoff: ISIS are a US asset – CONFIRMED

    • Replies:
  48. So I guess my characterization of them as being- “AK waving, stone age sub-humans” and ” head-slicing, murderous animals” in the service of “drooling Zio-Moloch” and “vultures and assorted scum of every stripe that are foisting this madness on millions of innocent people for their own fun and profit”- is pretty spot on?

    I’m encouraged when it seems like I’m getting a handle on things, even if I’m not encouraged by the status quo or human nature.

    Thanks krollchem for the additional info that suggests even more how closely Turkey is involved with ISIS and it’s blood-spattered and murderous hypocrisy

  49. The Vice Chief of the JCS, Admiral James A. Winnefeld, was in Ankara at the moment of the shoot down. http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/insanity-games.aspx?pageID=449&nID=91621&NewsCatID=425

  50. That lovely actress became a favorite of mine when she appeared in one of my favorite TV shows of all time, “House.” She competed with a number of other doctors to be selected as part of Dr. Gregory House’s (played by the marvelous British actor Hugh Laurie) very select team of diagnostic geniuses and was called “Thirteen” because of the number assigned to her at random as part of the competition. She first appeared in 2007 and lasted from 2007-2012. Her character was very enigmatic and bisexual, but she was certainly a delight for the eyes, in addition to being a fine actress. Apparently, she, like her family, gravitates to left-wing political causes in real life.

  51. the George Orwell Journalistic Award?

    I can think of a lot of people who deserve this one ; )

    what an ironical sounding award

  52. Apparently, she, like her family, gravitates to left-wing political causes in real life.

    I’m sure they have to, at least publically if they want to work in the occupied west’s showbiz industry

    Marlene Dietrich’s career would have ended in two seconds flat if she said even one nice thing about her sister who was rumored to have Nazi sympathies

    but who cares ? !

    look at her !

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kIkkT4rVgvs/UVQLn_hVnsI/AAAAAAAADgg/awDle4YE85o/s1600/Olivia+Wilde+New+Wallpaper+2013+04.jpg

    I wouldn’t mind if she kissed a girl or two

    {apologies for posting something slightly off topic, but hopefully I’m making up for it by posting these pictures too}

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-p15oYff56hQ/Uc20UNCVB2I/AAAAAAAAH24/jg7D22hOAQQ/s1600/Olivia+Wilde+hd+wallpapers+latest+(17).jpg

  53. A long repost but an exceptionally worthy one from Colonel Lang blog:
    by William R. Cumming

    America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter, and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
    ~Abraham Lincoln

    Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it.
    ~Adolph Hitler

    Any excuse will serve a tyrant.
    ~Aesop

    [MORE]

    The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants.
    ~Albert Camus

    Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.
    ~Albert Einstein

    The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.
    ~Albert Einstein

    The next war … may well bury Western civilization forever.
    ~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Those who stand for nothing fall for anything.
    ~Alexander Hamilton

    Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    ~Benjamin Franklin

    The deterioration of every government begins with the decay of the principles on which it was founded.
    ~Charles-Louis De Secondat

    Name me an emperor who was ever struck by a cannonball.
    ~Charles V of France

    We…are not really free if we can’t control our own government and its policies. And we will never do that if we remain ignorant.
    ~Charley Reese

    True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.
    ~Clarence Darrow

    You cannot be on one hand dedicated to peace and on the other dedicated to violence. Those two things are irreconcilable.
    ~Condoleeza Rice

    As a rule of thumb, if the government wants you to know it, it probably isn’t true.
    ~Craig Murray

    Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised “for the good of its victims” may be the most oppressive.
    ~C. S. Lewis

    Today the real test of America’s power and wisdom is not our capacity to make war but our capacity to prevent it.
    ~Dale Turner

    Remember that a government big enough to give you everything you want is also big enough to take away everything you have.
    ~Davy Crockett

    From fanaticism to barbarism is only one step.
    ~Denis Diderot

    Conflict cannot survive without your participation.
    ~Dr. Wayne Dyer

    We seek peace, knowing that peace is the climate of freedom.
    ~Dwight D. Eisenhower

    A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.
    ~Edward Abbey

    Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
    ~Edward Everett

    I dream of giving birth to a child who will ask, ‘Mother, what was war?’
    ~Eve Merriam

    The State acquires power… and because of its insatiable lust for power it is incapable of giving up any of it. The State never abdicates.
    ~Frank Chodorov

    All governments suffer a recurring problem: Power attracts pathological personalities.
    ~Frank Herbert

    The evils of government are directly proportional to the tolerance of the people.
    ~Frank Kent

    In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.
    ~Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    The military doesn’t start wars. The politicians start wars.
    ~General William Westmoreland

    War is fear cloaked in courage.
    ~General William Westmoreland

    Our enemies are innovative and resourceful…They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we.
    ~George W. Bush

    Evil men, obsessed with ambition and unburdened by conscience, must be taken very seriously–and we must stop them before their crimes can multiply.
    ~George W. Bush

    In peace, sons bury their fathers; in war, fathers bury their sons.
    ~Herodotus

    When fanatics are on top there is no limit to oppression.
    ~H.L. Menken

    Paramount among the responsibilities of a free press is the duty to prevent any part of the government from deceiving the people…
    ~Hugo Black, Supreme Court Justice

    Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
    ~Issac Asimov

    We believed ourselves indestructible… watching only the madmen outside our frontiers, and we remained defenseless against our own madmen.
    ~Jacobo Timerman

    The means of defense against foreign danger historically have become the instruments of tyranny at home.
    ~James Madison

    All men having power ought to be mistrusted.
    ~James Madison

    If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
    ~James Madison

    The loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or imagined, from abroad.
    ~James Madison

    It is always more valuable to report the truth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre

    I’m afraid, based on my own experience, that fascism will come to America in the name of national security.
    ~Jim Garrison

    There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty.
    ~John Adams

    The real fabric of American society is not all those flags you see on people’s cars…it’s in the Bill of Rights and in our constitutional form of government.
    ~John Adams (composer)

    It is harder to preserve than to obtain liberty.
    ~John C. Calhoun

    We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values.
    ~John F. Kennedy

    A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people.
    ~John F. Kennedy

    All mankind…being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions.
    ~John Locke

    Those who suppress freedom always do so in the name of law and order.
    ~John V. Lindsay

    The sword of murder is not the balance of justice.
    ~Julia Ward Howe

    The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in the insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding.
    ~Justice

    Man is the only animal that is cruel. It kills just for the sake of it.
    ~Mark Twain

    Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn’t.
    ~Mark Twain

    Be loyal to your country always, and to the government only when it deserves it.
    ~Mark Twain

    Social order at the expense of liberty is hardly a bargain.
    ~Marquis de Sade

    Nothing good ever comes of violence.
    ~Martin Luther King, Jr

    If you succumb to the temptation of using violence in the struggle…your chief legacy to the future will be an endless reign of meaningless chaos.
    ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

    Politics and crime are the same thing.
    ~Michael Corleone (from “The Godfather: Part III”)

    The enormous gap between what US leaders do in the world and what Americans think their leaders are doing is one of the great propaganda accomplishments.
    ~Michael Parenti

    There are only two powers in the world: the sword and the mind. In the long run, the sword is always defeated by the mind.
    ~Napoleon Bonaparte

    When the tyrant has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty, and there is nothing to fear from them, then he is always stirring up some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader.
    ~Plato

    One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.
    ~Plato

    This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector.
    ~Plato

    Violence is not power, but the absence of power.
    ~Ralph Waldo Emerson

    The tyrant always talks as if he’s preserving the best interests of his people when he actually acts to undermine them.
    ~Ramman Kenoun

    Power is usurped from the people, first by implementing fear, then it is maintained by slandering as ‘unpatriotic’ those who refuse submission.
    ~Ramman Kenoun

    The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.
    ~Tacitus

    A coward is much more exposed to quarrels than a man of spirit.
    ~Thomas Jefferson

    I know of no safe depository of the ultimate power of the society but the people themselves.
    ~Thomas Jefferson

    Nations, like individuals, are punished for their transgressions.
    ~Ulysses S. Grant

    • Replies:
  54. [Soviet Russia occupied several neighboring Muslim countries and finally met his Doomsday in Afghanistan in the 1980s]

    Some Doomsday. They left the country in good order and their friends there held power easily for four years.

  55. Oh, look, the Turkish Stream natural gas pipeline project – to have transported Russian natural gas to Eurotopia through Turkey, is dead.

    So, who benefits?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar-Turkey_pipeline

    I wonder if the Russians are going to start arming the Turkish Kurds, next?

  56. “Go easy on Rurik,” you said on another thread.

    Take a look at what Rurik said in answer to the Wiz, @45 here. The most charitable thing one could say is that he has zero comprehension of the English language. Actually, by totally misrepresenting what Wiz said, (he twisted the comment inside-out) Rurik means to ingratiate himself to you and Annamarina.

    Yes, of course Rurik makes many excellent observations (or if we’re honest, observations with which we agree). But that is standard procedure: win the confidence of your target by supporting their view, then slip in your disinfo which they will not immediately recognize as such b/c they’re already sympathetic to you.

    There are many weird and nasty people here (and in cyberspace in general), and most of them are obvious. Perhaps none of them are Hasbara. Perhaps they are just genuine Neo-Nazis, white-supremacists (anti-Semite, anti-Moslem, anti-Black, anti-Mexican, etc.,) or narcissistic egomaniacs who grab a spot in the limelight. Best to ignore them. But Rurik has directed his passive-aggressive disingenuousness against me, which is why I’m calling him out.

    Note: this is in no way an endorsement of the Wiz, and not a comment on the RT piece which I haven’t seen and therefore have no opinion.

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies:
  57. “I wouldn’t mind if she kissed a girl or two”

    She played a character on “House” who was bisexual. I haven’t found anything to indicate that she’s bisexual in real life. Your photos confirm what I concluded upon seeing her on TV the first time: she’s truly a lovely woman. Incidentally, I came across this comment on Wikipedia: “She is a pescetarian,[16] though formerly vegan, and was voted PETA’s Sexiest Vegetarian Celebrity of 2010.[17]” I would have to say she’s a pretty sexy pescetarian, as well. So, she clearly goes both ways as an eater, sexy as a vegetarian and sexy as a fish eater.

  58. Thanks for sharing, Annamarina.

    Just an observation… it was a little jarring for me to see the close juxtaposition of quotes by GW Bush and Herodotus.

    • Replies:
  59. Actually, by totally misrepresenting what Wiz said, (he twisted the comment inside-out)

    good lord

    can you then please tell me what the heck the wizard was trying to say?

    Please!

    if you got his meaning loud and clear, then perhaps it’s me that’s a little slow at the English language.

    narcissistic egomaniacs who grab a spot in the limelight

    I’ve already admitted that I find it fun to shred liars and shills and apologists for mass-murder.

    I do enjoy it. Perhaps that’s what bleeds through in my posts. Just a general joie de vivre and the pleasure of telling the truth that you’re misreading as narcissism Robin, and you;ve also been listening to the shrill and xenophobic voices of some of the posters here who treat Ron’s site like it’s their own private Idaho.

    But Rurik has directed his passive-aggressive disingenuousness against me, which is why I’m calling him out.

    Not at all Robin. I like and enjoy your posts very much. You’re clearly an intelligent and interesting person with noble motivations. But you’ve been jaundiced and jaded against me by others like Sam and RTW who I’ve had to chastise for their errors, and since their egos (talk about narcissistic!) can’t abide being shown how they’re occasionally in wrong, they’ve taken to calling me all kinds of nasty and unfair names. Ironically like the ones you’ve just used.

  60. The game has changed. Enough is enough! The border needs to be sealed,” the WSJ cited a senior Obama administration official…”

    US urges Turkey to close off its Syrian border to ISIS – media

    https://www.rt.com/news/323825-us-turkey-syrian-border/

    Hundreds of thousands of lives lost, and some people still refer to it as a “game.”

  61. says:
         Show CommentNext New Comment

    Why Russia is saying that it now would import all the agricultural products from Israel instead from Turkey? Why not Latin America or Iran or China or even Canada?

    Because all Israeli products and produce are wholesomer, tastier and free of chemicals. Got it?

  62. George W Bush quotes were the only ones which made me laugh. It is excellent to combine the thoughtful quotes and the funny ones.

    My personal favorite is:
    Unthinking respect of authority is the greatest enemy of the truth.
    This is such a universal statement, which applies to every field of human endeavour, not only “the news”, to science, for example.
    This is why RT tag line is so great – Question everything! Which says – Start thinking with your own head!

  63. More:

    Raqqa’s Rockefellers: How Islamic State oil flows to Israel.

    http://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/features/2015/11/26/raqqas-rockefellers-how-islamic-state-oil-flows-to-israel/

    “”Israel has in one way or another become the main marketer of IS oil. Without them, most IS-produced oil would have remained going between Iraq, Syria and Turkey. Even the three companies would not receive the oil if they did not have a buyer in Israel,” said the industry official.”

  64. You may have said something sensible but I stopped when it was apparent your English comprehension had not been deployed, assuming it is up to it, to understand what I had written. RT had apparently given an English version which perverted the meaning of what the Ukrainian had said in Ukrainian. It was that simple.

    • Replies:
  65. And he was a climate-change denialist.

    You got me there, now I am an even bigger fan of the late Alexander. You may have mixed me up with some left-winger. After his brother passed away, Andrew took over counterpunch.org and made it into a cesspool of AGW.

    I have written about this extensively before. Climate change yes, because the Earth’s Atmosphere is a highly unstable/transitional system, under the influence of hundreds of factors. AGW = money making opportunity for the connected and a major fighting cause for the left-wing suckers. When Alexander managed Counterpunch, there was a fantastic series of articles entitled: “How Green became the Color of Money”, that title about sums it all up.

    In spite of all the high-minded pronouncements about the “need to save the planet” and how this valiant effort can allegedly be “combined with economic growth”, their existence serves primarily one function: to distribute money looted from taxpayers and consumers to assorted cronies of the political class, who in turn provide the latter with kickbacks. That is all there is to it.

    Surely no-one is so naïve as to believe that modern-day politicians, whose horizon and time preferences never stretch beyond the next election date, are really concerned about what might happen to the planet a century hence (not to mention that the entire “climate change” religion seems to be little more than an elaborate hoax). With Abengoa’s bankruptcy we are once again presented with a bill that serves as a stark reminder how much scarce capital has been wasted on such schemes.

    Ultimately it is little more than a modern form of highway robbery, clad in highly effective propaganda. Many people feel guilty about “consumerism”, believing that it must be true that prosperity and progress are somehow sinful. In reality, environmentalism has long become the home of a great many authoritarian leftists after they lost their former sugar daddy in Moscow in 1990.

    They are trying – very successfully it saddens us to admit – to undermine free market capitalism by appealing to people’s sense of guilt and their innate need to receive absolution for their sins.

  66. Well perhaps I can ascend from “not very polite” to your level of downright rudeness or at least blunt statement.

    By refusing to answer my question you are tacitly admitting your lack of command of at least one of the two languages and thereby inevitably lowering the credibility of much what you say which depends on your version of the facts being right.

    I guess you didn’t try to pretend in case someone set you up with test questions which couldn’t readily be answered with a few seconds searching.

  67. I think that your and Rurik’s clash has become a bit personal. I honestly do not have a strong opinion either way. I do like your comments better than Rurik’s, but I do not trust anyone unconditionally. unz.com is a long run fight for the truth, and some things get clarified over time rather than instantly.

  68. I wasn’t refuting your post. I was merely pointing to a hypothesis which made perfectly good sense on the alleged facts you seemed to rely on and showed that you preferred prejudice to making a case which would stand up in any proper court or inquiry. You now confirm the impression that you don’t know how to put together credible fact and connected logical reasoning to make a case. It remains true that Turkey – perhaps to keep Russia and NATO at loggerheads – may have prepared to shoot down a Russian aircraft under cover of a flimsy legal justification – and did so. Another reason, on what seems to be agreed facts, is that forcing Russian planes to fly only where there can be no risk of straying into Turkish air space would protect anti-Assad combatants close to the Turkish border that Turkey wishes to protect.

    Try the KISS principle.

  69. yes wizard, I got that

    but what I didn’t get was what it was that was being perverted

    I couldn’t tell from the post exactly what it was that RT was saying or what precisely was being corrected by being able to speak the language

    you see I was accused of twisting what you said, so I was hoping you’d make it clear..

    • Replies:
  70. “Russia, which accidentally shot down a South Korean airliner in 1982, is no angel either.”

    That is another old myth. The Japanese shot it down over the Sea of Japan, which is why no bodies or debris were ever recovered, at least not for public display.

    In short, the Reagan era crazies were playing ELINT games with Soviets by intentionally routing large civilian aircraft over Sakahlin to test their reaction. The USA had done this before and laughed at Soviet complaints, so the Soviets set a trap and shot down several American ELINT aircraft over Soviet territory. American and Japanese fighters were scrambled and KAL007 cut off its lights and comm and dove down low headed toward Japan. The Japanese radar operators knew this could only be an attacking Soviet bomber and shot it down. Ha Ha. So Reagan promised to stop the games and gave the Soviets a few billion dollars in grain to keep quiet.

    Time for this story to break open Mr. Margolis, good luck finding anyone to publish the story, regardless of the evidence you present.

  71. while I was still hanging on to the Left by a thread, at a talk by Alex I asked him about the fall of the Wall. He said that “The West killed the USSR ” and one could extrapolate to communism generally I suppose. This was probably about 15 plus years ago.

    I asked him then what he thought of the general police state, central control of the economy, and the rest of the freedoms lost under communism. He just looked at me.

    Alex was a pretty nice guy and clever and sociable, much more so than all the communists I have known. Of course, he was Irish I guess, and they are usually clubable types, especially when hoisting a pint.

    As for Patrick, don’t have any position on him. Just always assumed that he was pretty conservative generally and did not locate himself on any section of the Left.

    Joe Webb

    PS if Patrick took over Counter-Punch, that would be a big surprise to me. After all, I guess that the outfit was sort of co-owned by lefties like St. Clair, etc.

    • Replies:
  72. I corrected myself on “Patrick taking over Counterpunch” a while back. To my knowledge it is St. Clair and Andrew Cockburn who are running that show now. I always enjoyed articles which discuss opposite points of view than what the governments are selling. Under one-party-two-brands political system, any real opposition is a welcome opposition. Under Alex it was all about that, even if left-wing. But Counterpunch has lost most of its punch (quality of articles) since Alex died. It is still readable, but just about. Good articles are now rare.

    BTW, I always thought that the name CP was actually a semi-clever substitute for Communist Party.

    • Replies: ,
  73. right, and thanks. I don’t bother reading anything from the left any more, except maybe some economics stuff.

    The left sold itself to Capital for a mess of cannibal soups….one big melting pot of dozens of dishes from Italy and France with the pig slop … of mexico and africa…a pottage worthy of swamp critters, which is what international Capital wants…an easy sell of swill to universal untermenschen.

    The left and its economism failed. The pre-communnist left of Europe, or socialism of the Jack London variety, or the US Socialist Party (norman Thomas?? ) or England or the continent, like SPD of Germany, all were relatively innocent of economism and had a holistic view, including the dread word Culture, like Wm. Morris in England, etc.

    The Jews and Lenin destroyed that for all time with communism.

    I suppose that Counter-Punch continues with the same old like of US Imperialism! etc. And their point?

    Joe Webb

    • Replies:
  74. I read maybe 10% of Counterpunch, but I am always looking for informed articles and some of the authors are well informed and practice investigative journalism. For example, their regular articles on Fukushima are better than in any other place on the Internet. Those articles are not written by the left-wingers, then the experts in the field. Naturally, I skip AGW and any other wining authors and articles.

    To give one good example of Counterpunch relevance – they have not swallowed the shoot-down of the Russian bomber as an act done by Turkey: http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/11/24/an-invisible-us-hand-leading-to-war-turkeys-downing-of-a-russian-jet-was-an-act-of-madness/

    • Replies:
  75. BTW, I always thought that the name CP was actually a semi-clever substitute for Communist Party.

    Sort of like the name of our good friend Jim Christian, whose name I think could actually be a semi-clever substitute for Jesus Christ, or JC.

  76. Well someone else got it very clearly so I suspect you are being a little disingenuous. But I shall set aside my suspicion and accept that you were adopting a rather odd way of sincerely seeking clarity.

    I was told by my Australian born friend whose mother tongue was Ukrainian and who can understand Russian pretty well (though the latter fact is not relevant to this account) that the English text of an RT report had the Ukrainian governor denigrating Soviet troops and saying that the Germans were better than the Russians (or Soviets) but this was completely untrue. Speaking in Ukrainian he did criticise Putin for sadly following, in the footsteps – if not with the same savagery – of the German invaders after the heroic soldiers of the Red Army had valiantly thrown out the invaders and freed the Ukraine (obviously I can’t quote the precise words but I am pretty sure that I have the gist right and certainly am not misrepresenting my Ukrainian speaking friend’s point).

    • Replies:
  77. You illustrate one of the interesting features of passionate bloggers who spend their time fulminating furiously about matters on which they are and will remain utterly impotent. That is how difficult it is for most people to be reliably agnostic or sceptical when only agnosticism is a respectable intellectual position given what is actually known. How far this is in the genes and how far it belongs to genes and culture more prevalent on one side or the other of the Hajnal line than the other is of some interest too.

    Why would anyone take Counterpunch as an authority or specially persuasive on the question of why the Russian plane was shot down and on whose orders and with whose complicity? That it claims to be “muckraking with a radical attitude” surely does nothing except the likeminded feel good. Its “certain assumption” about US permission isn’t even well maintained when it goes on to use the word “guess”.

    Israel is much more dependent on the US than Turkey for its security. Israel routinely, indeed almost weekly, ignores US preferences on matters sufficiently important for the US to have a clear preference. Why wouldn’t Turkey behave in the same way? What is it likely to lose by putting NATO “allies” in the position where they are offside with the Russians because they haven’t prevented or condemned the hostile action? And aren’t there other reasons why Turkey might want to keep Russian planes well away from its borders?

    If you accept that it is reasonably clearly not Obama’s habit to get himself involved with tactical events and really doesn’t like playing war games how do you see this case being made an exception? And if it was authorised without Obama’s knowledge please give us the benefit of your detailed knowledge of the workings of US government including the CIA, Defense Department and National Security Agency in general and in current particulars to make us believe that you are not choosing a view which conforms to your emotional prejudices.

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  78. as doktor voodoo said, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

    Turkey is muslim and also wants into the EU for free money and to ship its surplus of 90 IQ average muzzles north, to externalize its population/unemployment problem and in return to receive goodies from the ex-still-communist Merkel (currently a deal whereby she offered EU membership for Turkey’s Help with the migrant hordes ), remittances from German Turks to their families in Turkey, and to finesse its relations with muzzie states in genera, and its own muzzies who have the Deep State Complex, like lots of non-muzzies who while being a lot smarter, are still tantalized by Mystery.

    It’s a kind of board game, a parlor game. The Deep State of the Jewish domination of the US foreign policy, is deep but totally transparent/obvious, per Sniegoski’s book The Transparent Cabal, on the neocons. I , while snoozing , many years ago read a Financial Times article on the neocons, and smacked my head to force myself awake. It is all there folks, out in the open.

    Tough situation for Turkey and Erdogan.

    One can always count on people making mistakes, something conspiracy thinkers overlook. They also overlook plain stupidity.

    Turkey, assuming that the shoot-down of the Russian plane was not just a mistake, has to play to some degree to hopped-up muzzies and jihadists. It also has a completely long term historical relationship with Russia ….war. I also assume that the Orthodox churches of all varieties have a somewhat negative view of Turkey/muzzies. Then there is the US relationship, etc.

    What’s to add to this, except speculation? The other Big Mistake of conspiracy folks is that they overlook ordinary politics and ordinary people/popular movements. Who would have thought, say two years ago , that the European illegal immigration crisis, and in the US, the Trump reaction, was on its way? This is politics. The jewyorktimes thought they had us under control, and to read it today is a kick….they are going goofy, apoplectic, the blonde beastie awakens for them.

    Joe Webb

  79. Red Army had valiantly thrown out the invaders and freed the Ukraine

    ok wizard, thank you for clearing that up

    I guess the very idea that someone actually said it was the Red army that freed the Ukraine- was hard for me to wrap my brain around.

    And further that a person hostile to the German Nazis at the time could be sympathetic to the Nazi thugs in Kiev today (other than Victoria Nuland and co.)

    the very phantasmagoricness of it all is I guess why it wasn’t clear

    thanks again ; )

  80. Very good. Now provide us with a similar analysis of Judaism. That other fanatical middle eastern religion that furnishes its followers with explicit instructions and commands on how and when to commit mass murders and genocides on neighbors who refuse to submit themselves to captivity, usury and slavery at the hands of the Chosen Tribe.

  81. “Turkey’s downing of Russian jet was part of the US’s proxy war for Israel against Iran.” (I would add against Russia, as well as Iran).

    Which applies equally to the recently downed Russian airliner over the Sinai, the details of which were conveniently diverted to the memory hole by Turkey’s downing of the Russian SU24. Does anyone else detect a similar pattern of coincidences that continue occurring on a regular basis?

  82. Any journalist who would seek, or accept a journalistic award from the Zionist dominated establishment deserves the rejection, contempt and ridicule of all informed individuals. The seeking or acceptance of any such award being ample proof they have sold their souls to the forces of darkness.

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  83. Here is a repot on a presstitutes’ parade on CBS’ Face the Nation

    https://theintercept.com/2015/11/29/what-debate-means-on-face-the-nation/

    “…in addition to host John Dickerson and Goldberg himself, the rest of the panel is composed of former Bush 43 speechwriter and current Washington Post columnist Michael Gerson, Washington Post columnist David Ignatius, and former Bush 41 speechwriter and current Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan…
    Goldberg, in a 2006 profile of Gerson, wrote that “Gerson, like Bush, has never wavered”… Ignatius repeatedly used his Post platform to argue for the war: Eight months after the invasion, he wrote a gushing profile of Paul Wolfowitz (“a rare animal in Washington — a genuine intellectual in a top policymaking job”) and decreed, “This may be the most idealistic war fought in modern times”; in 2004, he proclaimed, “I don’t regret my support for toppling Hussein.” Noonan, in February 2003, told Slate: “I have come to the conclusion that we must move. I do not imagine an invasion will be swift and produce minimal losses. But I believe not stepping in is, at this point, more dangerous than stepping in.”
    Only a self-imposed lobotomy could explain the total lack of dignity in this neocon bunch. The rare animals indeed but certainly no intellectuals among them.

  84. If, as you imply, think that the Jew-blackmailed Obama is in charge of what is transpiring in the middle east (or anywhere else for that matter) you are deluded beyond hope. Let me spell it out for you; The neocons, 99.9 % of whom are Bolshevik Jews posing as all-American conservatives are, at present, serving as a rare visible example of what was once known as the invisible government, but now more commonly known as the American Deep State. Every American president since 1914, regardless of party affiliation, and regardless of race or ethnicity have served as front-men for the Jewish Deep State, whose existence most Americans remain totally unaware. All of the above applies equally to all other Western governments.

  85. Carroll, do you have to put it so harsh?

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  86. How come no one includes the wishes of the people of Syria in their discussion? What difference it makes for the average Syrian whether his village is bombed by Russia or America? What bullet a victim prefers in his head: AK 47 or M16 type? Why do the left and some on the extreme right oppose American interventions and military bases in foreign lands, but they are fine if Russia does same? Why is one imperialism better than the other? To the left: Russia is no more the USSR, even the USSR was horrible in practice. Ok, they did some good stuff, but overall they caused so much pain and collapsed. I oppose all imperialists when they do wrong; I shut up if they do right; I do not want them to get the idea that there is such thing as good imperialism.

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  87. {but they are fine if Russia does same?}

    Because the legitimate government of Syria officially requested assistance from Russia. Simple as that. When you invite someone into your house, whether he is nice guy or not, that is your choice; when someone breaks into your house, even if he claims its for your own good – that is a crime.
    And despite the lies being spread by the Neocon MSM, Assad is preferred by majority of Syrians.

    {How come no one includes the wishes of the people of Syria in their discussion? }

    Who says no one ?
    Alawites are only about 10% of Syrian population.
    Christians another 10% or so.
    If Sunni super-majority base did not support Assad, he would be gone 4 years ago.

    The bulk of the SAA is Sunni: they hate and despise the foreign Islamist terrorists the same as other Syrians. Syrian people are not as stupid as depicted in the MSM: they know what happened to Libya and Iraq. They know what will happen to Syria if throat-cutting cannibals win.

  88. my post above was reply to [Congo]

  89. Rurik, you made me laugh. Carol does not mince words at all. Not good for diplomacy, but very good for the truth.

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  90. Sorry, but elegance in writing and engaging in nuance are skills I never mastered. Which, I suspect, explains why a majority of my comments have been deleted or banned from practically every Jewish-run blog or web site I ever visited. With the latest such ban coming from antiwar.com who took issue with my stated opinion that 9/11 bore all the ear-marks of a Jewish-engineered false-flag event.

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  91. If you are not aware, the Russian Federation was asked (formally, legally) to provide protection for the state of Syria from the assault of liver-eaters of ISIS ( Daesh) that have been armed by the US/Israel, gulf states, and Turkey. Don’t you want the fire-fighters to help you when the arsonists attack your home?

  92. As far as I know, unz.com is owned by a Jew, and you have not been censored here. This is why you should not generalize. You have to distinguish the Israel Firsters/Neocons/Ziocons and the Jews, definitely not the same thing. I hope I do not have to list anti-Zionist Jews for you to understand. There are more Jews fighting Ziocons than us non-Jews, because many of Goyim work for them and the rest fear their influence. It take guts to fight Ziocons and many Jews have more guts than we (admittedly, it is also more difficult to label them anti-Semite).

    I recommend that you read a series of articles here on unz.com by Dr. Norman Finkelstein, who is presenting under the tag: Holocaust Deindustrilizer.

    http://www.unz.com/author/norman-finkelstein/

    Check out the history of Dr. Finkelstein to find out what Ziocons did to his career.

    And also, some of the biggest anti-Jews/anti-Semites are members of the Ziocon online army – the Hasbara.

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  93. The accusation of Margolis being a CIA tool is risible. Margolis doesn’t like the US and never has. He has consistently stood against US foreign policy and much of his criticism has good foundation. If the CIA wanted a tool it could have found someone far more effective than Margolis.

    I have found Margolis to be wrong about a lot of what he writes but I still read the man simply for another view of what concerns me.

    There has been off and on conflict between Turkey and Russia for at least 3 centuries. Russia has consistently been the aggressor. The Crimean War, for example, was precipitated by Russia’s imperial ambitions on the Black Sea littoral. Russia took most of southern Ukraine from the Ottoman Turks as well as the Caucasus. Russia was moving towards the Bosporus and Dardanelles to obtain the warm water port on the Med. Russia still has that desire and has a military presence in Armenia. Ostensibly to defend Armenia against the Azeri, the real reason is to prepare for a move south. Georgia stands in the way for now, but that can change quickly.

    The biggest barrier at this point is Russia’s financial position. Presently, if the sanctions do not come off next year, Russia will have to make a serious choice between being able to maintain a government in its own territory, or destroy itself in Ukraine and the Levant. Russia’s position is more precarious than it was in the late 80s when it foundered in the mountains of Afghanistan.

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  94. also the speech by the Jew Benjamin Freedman, which rankled me so many years ago

    http://www.themodernreligion.com/jihad/freedman.html

    but still, it’s hard to condemn the way Carroll must feel when so darn many of the schemers and bankers and disinformation manipulators and war mongers are so glaringly Jewish in their numbers outside of all proportions

    One must concede that the Jews are an extraordinary people, and have done extraordinary things. But why must they always seem to be using their gifts and enormous privileges and power and influence in society to do so much harm? From their perch of magnificent power, like Soros, for instance, why must they always seek to do others harm and cause strife and engender hatred which no doubt leads to what they call anti-Semitism. Why the relentless hate of non-Jews? Their religion might account for a bit of it, or envy for the beauty of a shiksa or the genius of a Shegetz a bit also, but there is no reason for the Jews to envy a Palestinian, yet they seem to hate them sooo much! And for what? Because they are inconvenient?

    Anyways, it’s nice to have a site like this where these tenacious and vexing issues can be discussed openly. And the best site on the Internet for doing so is being provided by a member of the Jewish tribe. No gentiles of note that I know of have the guts or integrity to put together a site like this that examines all of these pressing issues with the best writers out there.

    Like Carroll said, even anti-war kicked her off for asking inconvenient questions, while Ron Unz encourages them.

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  95. You seem to be suffering severely from a tendency to reify financial aggregates. In fact, in all my years of practice I don’t think I’ve seen a worse case.

  96. I am not condemning Carroll for the way she feels, that feeling is up to her. I was only trying to explain that it is misguided when generalized.

    Substitute Ziocon for Jew and I will agree with what you wrote. I cannot keep repeating that it is not Jews as a religious group then one group of Jewish extremists. If I were to sum up what you wrote in one short sentence, it would be: Jews are human that is fallible. The Jewish extremists are very powerful and hold important positions (like Nutty Yahoo), but they are still only a sect, not representative of all Jewish people.

    Antiwar is driven by a different agenda than Mr Unz here, who wants a maximally open discussion to get to the truth on various matters. I sometimes suspect Jason Ditz of Antiwar a little.

    Finally, in my personal view, the State of Israel is run by these extremists and is worth almost constant condemnation for its actions.

  97. Thanks Rurik. You said many things in my defense I could not have expressed nearly as well. With this applying especially to your comments regarding how Jews (as a group) have apparently always posed intractable problems to native peoples of nations in whom they gathered in large numbers. And from what I gather, this has apparently always been the case since virtually every nation in which Jews (as a group) gained controlling power (which they always seem to accomplish) abuse their power and privileges to the point where the native inhabitants of a nation became fed-up with their arrogance and abuse leading to their being ridiculed, persecuted and eventually expelled from the nation. Which, at one time or another has occurred in virtually every European country, including (but not limited to) Spain, Portugal, France, Poland, England and Germany. Was this the fault of Jews or Gentiles? I don’t know the answer to that question, but I do know that Jews invariably assign to themselves the role of the brilliant innocent victim while blaming Gentiles who, according to the Jewish narrative, owe their failures and bitterness to laziness and a lack of ambition, thus leading to Gentiles getting the short end of the stick.
    In closing I would like to make it clear that I am incapable of despising individuals belonging to any ethnic group unless given a very good reason for doing so. While at the same time recognizing that Jews, like the Black race, generate unique problems relating to the establishment of peaceful, orderly societies where every man may dwell secure and contented under his vine and fig tree. I would also add that I have read many books written by Jews, and that I hold in high regard and admiration many individual Jews, including Noam Chomsky. With several of his books among my favorites on the subject of media control and world politics in general.

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  98. …in my defense…

    I am not aware of anyone attacking you, you are the paranoid one running around and complaining about censorship. I do not know how many times I have been censored by MSM, I was never even anti-Semitic. I stopped posting anything in Western MSM comments sections because their agenda is again different then that of antiwar.com or unz.com – it is the promotion of the agenda of Western regimes and the owners of these regimes, which often happen to be Zionists.

    We just have to accept different policies at different sites and their different agenda. We are lucky that a site exists where every opinion goes though. So welcome Carroll to a great zine where you can be anti-Jew, if you like.

    BTW, the Jews are much better defined as a religious group which gained their own state. Otherwise, I tend to believe that the Israelis are the biggest anti-Semites in the World because I believe that Palestinians are also Semites who just do not believe in Torah.

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  99. After reading KIZA’s response to my latest comment, are the rest of you commenters beginning to understand the age-old problem with Jews and crypto Jews? They simply do not possess, and have apparently never possessed the ability of knowing how or when to shut-up and go quietly away. Choosing instead to dwell among mankind as festering boils that respond to no conventional treatment short of being excised from the flesh.

  100. Hello Carroll,

    Was this the fault of Jews or Gentiles?

    http://www.heretical.com/pubs/fabledh.html

    The ADL considers anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism, so where does that leave us?

    if any criticism of some of Israel’s more outrageous atrocities against the Palestinians is automatically proof of anti-Semitism, (even if you’re Jewish), then we’re not left with much wiggle room.

    I don’t know where the lines are. If we allow Abe F0xman and Alan Dershowitz to set the parameters, then we all better praise Israel fulsomely or it’s proof of our Nazi sympathies. (which I’m sure Abe and Alan consider all white Christians to be no matter how slavishly they prostrate themselves before the tribe)

    But if I can draw my own lines I’d say that we don’t have to pick. It’s a false dichotomy to demand that we are either pro-Israel or anti-Semite. We don’t have to let them create the paradigm that criticizing some of the things some Jews do = hatred of all Jews.

    but that is the trap that’s been set for us

    it’s a conditioned Pavlovian response that when anyone criticizes the Jewish domination of our media for instance, that it automatically must mean that the person criticizing hates all Jews and wants to kill them all. This absurd but carefully crafted narrative is used to prevent any criticism of Jewish intrigues or Zionist atrocities by equating anti-Zionism in its extreme forms = blind, irrational, bigoted and murderous hatred of all Jews

    personally I have very close ties to many Jews. I like (most) of the ones I know very much. I find them pleasant and charming and occasionally even enchanting. But no one gets a pass, not because they’re white, Christian Americans or Jewish Israelis or black Africans. No one. When they’re laudable as all peoples can be, no matter from what group, then I want to sing their praises, but when they behave in ways that are execrable, they’ll get no pass from me, smears and threats and red-faced shaking fists notwithstanding.

  101. You think it’s “truth” to claim that the U.S. ruling class is Bolshevist?

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  102. The Neocons/Ziocons are Bolshevics and they are more specifically of Trotskyite ideological roots. Ruling through subterfuge and lies, with only their elite knowing the truth. They massacred Imperial Russia, now they are massacring the whole World.

    Perhaps the answer would be yes.

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  103. Ruling through subterfuge and lies, with only their elite knowing the truth.”

    That is a tactic, not an ideology. Anyway, do you think this only applies to Bolshevism?

  104. Ruling through subterfuge and lies, with only their elite knowing the truth.

    For politicians, the Bolsheviks were pretty honest – Trotsky particularly. Stalin was the one who said (and practiced) that the paper will take whatever ink is put on it (to that effect).

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  105. You pose very good questions. Sorry, I wish I could reply longer but a bit busy right now. Here is one small part of my response to both of you: http://www.alternet.org/story/15935/leo_strauss’_philosophy_of_deception

  106. Honest? From the very beginning Lenin was totally lying to the Russian peasants, promising them their own land, concealing his plans for collectivization. Maybe someone with a better memory will pick this up; I’m just astounded that you said that. All the groundwork for Stalin’s policies was laid by Lenin.

  107. […] in Ukraine and Syria, there has been much talk about the clouding of US-Russian relations. Some voices in the Internet’s alternative media sections have conjured the possibility that these […]

  108. […] in Ukraine and Syria, there has been much talk about the clouding of US-Russian relations. Some voices in the Internets alternative media sections have conjured the possibility that these […]

  109. […] in Ukraine and Syria, there has been much talk about the clouding of US-Russian relations. Some voices in the Internet’s alternative media have pointed to the possibility that these conflicts […]

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